ATEOTT 41 Transcript EPISODE 41 [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:03] TP: Basically, when people said the nation is on – they’re thinking more of Malcolm and not Elijah Muhammad. People in the nation are becoming jealous against Malcolm, especially people who are members of Elijah Muhammad's family. They're feeling that Malcolm may want to try and take over the nation and step into their hierarchy. That becomes problematic. Also, how much of this is also infiltrated by the FBI? We already have the document. They were surveilling them. We’re surveilling Elijah Muhammad, all of his households. They were following Malcolm during this time when he's organized in the Hartford mosque, they're following him. Whenever he held a meeting, they're walking up to people who go to the meetings and ask them what was the inside, underneath. This is all going on at the same time. It's creating this environment of paranoia and distrust. You don't know who to trust. Why are you still building up a nation? [00:01:05] LW: Hey, there. It's Light Watkins, your host of At the End of the Tunnel. This week, you're in for a very special treat. A few months ago, episode 21 to be precise, I ran a little experiment, where I brought onto the podcast a Yale professor and author, Dr. David Blight to talk to us about the life of Frederick Douglass, which was based on his Pulitzer Prize winning biography called Profit of Freedom. I've been eagerly anticipating the next opportunity to share the life story of historical figure as fascinating as Douglass. Well recently, I got to have a conversation with Tamara Payne, who along with her father, Les Payne, were co-authors of a book called The Dead Are Arising, which is a National Book Award-winning account of the life of Malcolm X, who is one of my personal heroes, and who is I believe, one of the most fascinating and misunderstood social justice warriors in modern history. The Dead Are Arising was listed by the New York Times and Time Magazine as one of the best non-fiction books of 2020. © 2021 At The End Of The Tunnel 1 ATEOTT 41 Transcript It's also received favorable reviews in just about every other major journal and media outlet for its extensively researched page-turning prose, which details aspects of Malcolm X's life that have never been written about so closely. Malcolm's birth name, as some of you know was Malcolm Little. There are lots of stories that Tamara shares about the little family, strong Garveyite background, and how Marcus Garvey even visited their home. They wrote extensively about Malcolm's childhood and his family life is told to the Payne’s firsthand by his brothers and sisters and other relatives. We learned the truth about how Malcolm's father actually died, which is different from the story that Malcolm told in his autobiography. You might remember the Shorty character from the autobiography. Well, turns out, Shorty was a composite of several of Malcolm's friends and running buddies, including one of his brothers. We also talk about the circumstances in which Malcolm's mother, Lorraine Little, was committed to a mental institution, and how Malcolm's older brother, Wilfred, became one of his best friends and closest confidant near the end of his life. Les Payne had several interviews with Wilfred. They also found and interviewed people who Malcolm went to school with and ran the streets with and even served time with as he underwent his transformation. We knew that Malcolm was an avid reader, but turns out, he was even a fan of Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People, which is a book that played a key role in helping Malcolm get released on parole, which is when he then became a minister for the Nation of Islam. The Paynes also wrote about the secret meetings at Malcolm X had with the KKK, as well as the details of his gruesome assassination, and who the real assassins were. In this very fascinating episode, we're going to unpack a lot of aspects about the life of Malcolm X, that you've probably never heard about, even if you read The Autobiography of Malcolm X. I think that you too, are going to have a greater appreciation for all that Malcolm X overcame in his short life, as well as the direction that he was heading in near the end of his life. © 2021 At The End Of The Tunnel 2 ATEOTT 41 Transcript As with the Frederick Douglass episode, we're going to start the conversation by talking about the author's backstory, which is equally as interesting. The Pulitzer Prize winning, investigative journalist and weekly news day columnist, Les Payne, undertook this project after having a chance encounter with Malcolm's brother, Filbert in 1990. Then the book ended up being 28 years in the making. Then, Les Payne unexpectedly passed away in 2018, which led his principal researcher, who happened to be his daughter, Tamara Payne, take the reins and complete the project two years later in 2020. During those three decades, Mr. Payne had been grooming his daughter to become an expert investigative journalist and showing her how to interview sources properly, so she was more than capable and prepared to take over the project when he passed. It's not surprising that their book went on to win the prestigious National Book Award for non-fiction in 2020. I'm honored that I got to speak with Tamara Payne, about this super important project, especially now, after having just observed the 56th anniversary of the assassination of Malcolm X a couple of weeks ago. Without further ado, let's dive into my conversation with author, Tamara Payne and Les Payne will be there in spirit. [INTERVIEW] [00:05:35] LW: Tamara, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. It's an honor to be able to talk with you about the life of Malcolm X and this amazing book that you and your father wrote, The Dead Are Arising. I want to start off by talking about the genesis of the idea. Now, I know your dad, Mr. Payne is from Alabama, is from Tuscaloosa. Then he and his family migrated to Hartford, where he actually got the opportunity to hear Malcolm X speak at the University of Connecticut. I believe Malcolm was about 37-years-old at the time? [00:06:21] TP: Malcolm spoke at Bushnell Memorial, 1963. My father was attending universities of Connecticut stores, and he and his roommate went to go see Malcolm, because they just said, “Hey, let's go hear what he has to say.” His roommate was Jewish, so it wasn't another black guy, he was a Jewish guy. © 2021 At The End Of The Tunnel 3 ATEOTT 41 Transcript [00:06:40] LW: Well, it's interesting, because he described that night as a night that he stopped being a negro. What do you mean by that? [00:06:48] TP: Well, negro, being that this is the term that black people referring to themselves. They accepted this term, negro, at that time. To call each other black was derogatory. My father would often joke, if I called my brother black, he would beat me up. If I called him African, he'd be chasing me even now. These are considered in 1960, derogatory terms towards black people. Malcolm was using black, alternating in how he would describe black people in his lectures. He would alternate and say, “So called negros, negros.” Then he would say, “Black.” It was always interesting. After hearing my dad talk about seeing him and reading that essay, and then listening to Malcolm doing it, you realize, Malcolm's really playing with people. If you think about how language is how you get used to your ear, tuning into how you hear terms. What Malcolm does, he plays around with this, and he keeps ultimatum and he gets this response from the audience. Including from my father, he says that so that when you hear black, my father would get offended. Everybody moving their chairs and have certain responses. They hear so called negro and they’ll be calm. Malcolm said, “I see you like the term negro and not black. What is negro, but black in Spanish. What you're saying is I can call you black in Spanish, but not in the language you speak.” For dad, that was so clear. It was like lightning struck in his head and just, wait a minute. Wow. What was just so clear and concise. He said it, like it was enlightenment for him. Then it made him think, like he didn't think of himself as I willfully see myself as inferior. I mean, we talk about in this book, when we talk about how we have to look at the sense of inferiority black people have inherited through our history here in this country. It’s not because they really see themselves as lower, but it is also a survival tactic, just to get through the day. I mean, to avoid lynchings and stuff, even when you move up north and escape the Jim Crow South, there are things that you have to do. © 2021 At The End Of The Tunnel 4 ATEOTT 41 Transcript Dad in those moments, all this fell away in that moment for him to see on the one hand, no white person has never seen themselves on an equal par with me, as a black person, just when they see me.