00:00:00 Music Transition Gentle, trilling music with a steady drumbeat plays under the dialogue. 00:00:01 Promo Promo Speaker: Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of MaximumFun.org and is distributed by NPR. [Music fades out.] 00:00:12 Music Transition “Huddle Formation” from the album Thunder, Lightning, Strike by The Go! Team. A fast, upbeat, peppy song. Music plays as Jesse speaks, then fades out. 00:00:19 Jesse Host It’s Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. My next guest is Riz Ahmed. Riz has Thorn spent the last decade pursuing dual careers in acting and hip-hop. His work has been controversial, funny, subtle—the sort of stuff critics love. And it’s found huge audiences despite all that. He moved from British independent movies, like the suicide bomber comedy, Four Lions, to a big supporting part in Jack Gyllenhaal’s Nightcrawler, to full-fledged leading man roles. He recently picked up his first Oscar nomination for his role in Sound of Metal. That made him the first Muslim ever nominated for Best Actor, by the way. And also, like I said, he is an MC and he’s very good at it. When I talked with him in 2016, he’d just released a new EP in collaboration with Heems, of Das Racist. They called the project the Swet Shop Boys. He’s kept rapping since then. [Music fades in.] Last year, he released The Long Goodbye, an LP. Here’s a single from it. “Mogambo”. 00:01:18 Music Music “Mogambo” from the album The Long Goodbye by Riz Ahmed. '76 Rizzy boy Redinho Pick a side, do or die 'Cause all we ever do is die They either bomb us or we suicide We're the doner meat Don't you wanna try Woke up to a war Why you wanna beef with your own like? I keep my beef with the pork Why you bring a tweet to a gunfight? Yeah, they wanna kill us all [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.] 00:01:42 Jesse Host Riz Ahmed, welcome to Bullseye. It’s great to have you on the show. 00:01:45 Riz Ahmed Guest Thank you for having me, man! 00:01:47 Jesse Host Did you—did you always MC? 00:01:51 Riz Guest Um… yeah! I guess so. Not always. [Chuckles.] That would be really impressive. But no, from like my teenage years, I guess. It was just quite a natural way to express yourself in the environment I grew up, in London and in that period of time as well, when our kind of MCing culture really started kind of going up a gear. With the explosion of jungle, garage, and grime. And the kind of mainstreaming of underground UK hip-hop, as well, and the kind of explosion of pirate radio stations. So, I’d go and MC on local pirate radio. This was before internet radio, so it would be like somewhere in a Council estate, someone would have an antenna and illegal kind of—you know—transmission equipment and just be broadcasting, you know, radio and you’d try and get a slot on there and play at local raves stuff like that. So, yeah, it was just a kind of—a natural thing. It was something that was around a lot and it just felt exciting. And as a young, restless, like, hyperactive kid, I was just very naturally drawn to it. 00:02:57 Jesse Host I was just in London doing this show, actually, and talking to a friend of a friend who was—she had been a commissioning person at the BBC Comedy, and she had been a culture studies major in school. I was a culture studies major in school. And we were chatting about our respective theses. And I did mine on identity strategies in hip- hop and she was like, “Oh, you know, mine was about the South Asian community in the UK and the way that hip-hop identities kind of transformed immigrant identities in the ‘80s and ‘90s, especially.” And I thought that was really interesting, because there is not much of a parallel tradition in the United States. And— 00:03:44 Riz Guest Yeah. That’s fascinating. Yeah. 00:03:47 Jesse Host Yeah, I—like, I wonder to what extent, like, being what we call in the States, a head—like being down with hip-hop and hip-hop culture— was an extension of the culture of the people who looked like you that were around you. 00:04:02 Riz Guest Yeah. It’s interesting, because you know, I think you’re talking about the different kind of South Asian experience in the US and the UK, and I think there is quite a pronounced difference. And it really comes down to class. I think a lot of the kind of South Asian migration to the UK is the kind of blowback of empire, post-World War II and etc. in the ‘60s and ‘70s, as—you know—Pakistan and Bangladesh destabilized, and you had civil wars and stuff like that and cyclones and whatever. And so, what you have is kind of a largely—although not completely, this is a generalization—a kind of working class… you know, wave of migrants to the UK. A lot of people that came to work in factories, that kind of thing. People who kind of—whose heritage maybe’s from rural backgrounds, whereas—in the US—I think the stipulation imposed on South Asian migration was you have to have a kind of masters or a PhD or above. So, you have a lot of people coming over becoming doctors, engineers, professors. And so, you’ve got a very different class profile. And I would say that the South Asian experience in the UK’s more akin, maybe, to the—again, generalizing—the, like—the Hispanic or Latino experience, in the US. By which I mean, our kind of socio- economic position is probably comparable to the Latino experience, here. And also, the way in which we—both those groups are kind of really entwined into the fabric of the societies that they live in. They really kind of built those countries, but still somehow remain strangely culturally unassimilable. Or, at least, perceived as such. Which, again, kind of really comes back to class and how much people hold onto their, you know—that heritage. And so, I think they were quite different experiences. So, the idea of like South Asian people—people like me—being like thugs or like, you know, being a credible voice for like working class hip-hop, maybe that’s kind of alien to American listeners, but it’s really not in the UK. You know. You know, there are South Asian neighborhoods you wouldn’t wanna get lost wandering around, in the UK. It’s just different in that sense. So, given that we had that kind of class profile, the kind of—you know, the music of people like 2pac or whatever—that resonated with us immediately. Immediately. And so, actually it’s a lyric that I’ve got on “Half Moghul Half Mowgli”, on the Swet Shop Boys album, is—you know, “Growing up, my only heroes were Black rappers. So, to me, 2Pac was a true Paki.” And that definitely did kind of mold and shape and influence what, like, young South Asian—emerging South Asian identity was in the ‘90s. And in the ‘80s, you had this generation that was like, “Okay. We came over here. We’re not—you know, we’re being hosted. You know. We’re guests here.” And our generation was like, “Well, we were born here. This is our country.” And we need to find a kind of, like, language and symbols to kind of express that kind of defiance in the face of those who said we’re not welcome and, “Go back to where you came from,” or something. Often, we heard like, “Go back to where you came from.” It was like, “Well, this is where I come from. This is my home.” And so, that African American experience—you know—as expressed through hip-hop really, really resonated with us. 00:07:08 Jesse Host I wanna play one of your solo tracks from a tape that you put out this year, under your hip-hop name—which is Riz MC. And it’s called “Englistan”. 00:07:19 Music Music “Englistan” from the album Englistan by Riz MC. This is England God save the Queen Nah she ain't mates with me But she keeps my paper green Plus, we are neighbors, see On this little island Where we're all surviving Politeness mixed with violence This is England This is England The bridge we're living in A kitchari simmering Women in hijabs, syringe popstars And the promise of a Patel as a 'Man U' star Where the money you make and the man you are Stand in opposites, so we drink too hard The banks rob you and the news is half The truth wrapped up in boobs and arse Pigs hit kids, so Bricks hit windows and the High Street burns With broken dreams and herb Only thing you can't find in Tesco is that and a sense of worth So, hide behind a Benz or furs Go online to find friends or perv But click the wrong site for a free trial later, detention first God save the Queen [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.] 00:08:07 Jesse Host You know… the culture of England, and especially London and especially those parts of England and London that aren’t White British people, have generated like huge revolutions in global music, in the last—whatever—30 years.