Friday Volume 507 12 March 2010 No. 56 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Friday 12 March 2010 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 519 12 MARCH 2010 520 House of Commons Marriage (Wales) Bill [Lords] Bill reported, without amendment. Third reading Friday 12 March 2010 9.44 am The House met at half-past Nine o’clock Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. PRAYERS Knowing of your connection with Wales, Mr. Deputy The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means Speaker, there is certainly a Welsh flavour about what I took the Chair as Deputy Speaker (Standing Order trust will be a very short debate. I am a member of the No. 3). Church in Wales, although I was brought up in Eglwys Bresbyteraidd Cymru—yr Hen Gorff—and I am very Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): I beg to move, proud to bring the Bill before the House. That the House sit in private. When the Public Bill Committee met on 24 February, Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163). Members from all four parties representing Welsh constituencies attended and spoke. There was unanimity The House divided: Ayes 0, Noes 37. across all parties and all denominations from Free Division No. 107] [9.33 am Church to Catholic, and support from all parts of Wales, north, south, east and west. Perhaps that is the AYES most surprising element of unity. Tellers for the Ayes: It is ironic that the established Church of England Angela Watkinson and can make a change of the sort introduced by the Bill Mr. Christopher Chope through a simple Measure, but that we need a private Member’s Bill, that most fragile of legislative vehicles, to do so in Wales. The purpose is simple. On 1 October NOES 2008, the Church of England Marriage Measure 2008 Bellingham, Mr. Henry Jowell, rh Tessa came into force. Before then, marriage banns could be Bottomley, Peter Keeble, Ms Sally called in a parish church if one or both of the parties to Brennan, Kevin Keen, Ann be married resided in the parish. If they lived in different Brown, Lyn Lamb, Norman parishes, the banns had to be called in the parish church Burns, Mr. Simon Michael, rh Alun of each party. Clark, Paul Morgan, Julie Coaker, Mr. Vernon Naysmith, Dr. Doug The Measure added five additional cases of qualifying Corbyn, Jeremy Pelling, Mr. Andrew connection with the parish. In summary, they are as Eagle, Angela Robathan, Mr. Andrew follows: first, that one of the parties was baptised or Field, Mr. Mark Ruddock, Joan confirmed in the parish; secondly, that one of the Francis, Dr. Hywel Simmonds, Mark parties had, at any time, his or her usual place of Grogan, Mr. John Skinner, Mr. Dennis residence in the parish for not less than six months; Hanson, rh Mr. David Spellar, rh Mr. John thirdly, that one of the parties had, at any time, habitually Hoban, Mr. Mark Taylor, Dr. Richard attended public worship in the parish for not less than Hodge, rh Margaret Timms, rh Mr. Stephen six months; fourthly, that a parent of one of the parties, Iddon, Dr. Brian Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Ward, Claire during the lifetime of that party, fulfilled either of the Irranca-Davies, Huw two previous conditions; and finally, that a parent or James, Mrs. Siân C. Tellers for the Noes: grandparent of one of the parties was married in the Jones, Mr. David Nia Griffith and parish. Jones, Mr. Kevan Laura Moffatt The affirmation of the relationship between two people in marriage is important, and in these days of a highly Question accordingly negatived. mobile population, people want to make the connections that are indicated by those five additional qualifying criteria. All that the Bill will do is bring the arrangements of the Church in Wales into the same situation that the Measure brought into place for the Church of England. The only difference is some of the terminology that is necessary to meet the arrangements in the disestablished Church. Given the unity of support for the Bill throughout the Chamber and across all denominations, I am sure that I need say no more on the subject. 9.48 am Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): I declare at the outset that, like the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Alun Michael), I am a member of the Church in Wales. As he said, the Bill has full cross-party support for all its provisions, and perhaps 521 Marriage (Wales) Bill [Lords]12 MARCH 2010 Marriage (Wales) Bill [Lords] 522 [Mr. David Jones] connections. It is only fair that they should be able to do so—as, indeed, they can in the Church of England. As more importantly, it has the full support of the governing the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, we now have a body of the Church in Wales and therefore represents much more mobile population, and the Bill is an important its official policy. measure in ensuring that those people can get married As the right hon. Gentleman said, the Bill will bring in the church of their choice, in a place where they have Church in Wales practice in line with that of the Church connections. of England. He outlined the consequences of the Church I am slightly concerned about the churches in the of England Marriage Measure 2008, which introduced Welsh marches, which were mentioned by my hon. five additional cases in which marriage banns may be Friend the Member for Clwyd, West. The church may called in a church in a particular parish. As he said, the be in one jurisdiction, but the county in a separate change in practice was meant to reflect social changes, jurisdiction across the march. I do not quite know how in that people are far more mobile than they were but that problem is going to be sorted out—perhaps the nevertheless feel an affinity with a particular place Minister can fill us in regarding the verdict of the where they have lived, or where a parent or a grandparent Ministry of Justice. It is an important issue, and a few has lived, and wish to mark important occasions such anomalies may be thrown up. as marriage there. The Church in Wales recognises that The Bill is a small but important measure, and it will the change effected by the Church of England is good bring a great deal of happiness and joy to a significant and sensible and wishes to adopt it too. number of people. It is good to see right hon. and hon. There is another point that should perhaps be made. Members on the Government Benches supporting the Along the often highly populated border between England institution of marriage. and Wales, there are parishes that fall within with one ecclesiastical jurisdiction but a different political one. 9.53 am The changes contemplated under the Bill will therefore Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I have resolve a great deal of possible confusion, of which very little to say about the Bill, given that I am not a there is frankly already enough along the English-Welsh member of the Church of Wales. It would be interesting, border. however, to speculate on whether the measure will result Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): As my in an increased number of church weddings. For my hon. Friend regularly attends church in Wales, does he part, I certainly hope that will be the consequence. In know whether the proposal will result in an increased principle, if we give a wider choice of venue to people number of church weddings in Wales? Does he have any who wish their marriage to be solemnised in church, information about the impact of the 2008 Measure on that should increase take-up. the number of weddings in churches in England? I wish to examine the consequences of the equivalent Church of England Measure. Unfortunately, the most Mr. Jones: I do not have any information about the recent statistics are for 2008, before the Measure was consequences of the 2008 Measure, which is clearly fully implemented on 1 October 2008. In the Church of fairly recent. However, I have received representations England, between 2002 and 2008, the number of weddings from people interested in the Bill who think that a was relatively constant: some 54,800 in 2002; and 57,000 widening of the categories of people may be married in in 2004, falling to 53,100 in 2008. Given that there are a particular church will have a desirable effect on the some 16,000 churches under the control of the Church number of weddings. I have been approached in particular of England, that is an average of only three marriages by people in the catering trade who say that wedding per church per year. Marriage ceremonies are a good catering may well be stimulated. In both business and way of increasing church income—with due respect to social life in Wales, the consequences are highly desirable. my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, West, the The Bill will make it easier for people to get married income for the church is probably more important than where they wish, which is surely a good thing.