COMMUNITIES COMMITTEE Wednesday 13 September 2006 Session 2 £5.00 Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body 2006. Applications for reproduction should be made in writing to the Licensing Division, Her Majesty‟s Stationery Office, St Clements House, 2-16 Colegate, Norwich NR3 1BQ Fax 01603 723000, which is administering the copyright on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. Produced and published in Scotland on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body by Astron. CONTENTS Wednesday 13 September 2006 Col. PLANNING ETC (SCOTLAND) BILL: STAGE 2 ..................................................................................................... 3857 COMMUNITIES COMMITTEE 23rd Meeting 2006, Session 2 CONVENER *Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab) DEPUTY CONVENER *Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab) *Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab) *Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP) *Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) *John Home Robertson (East Lothian) (Lab) *Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) *Dave Petrie (Highlands and Islands (Con) COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTES Chris Ballance (South of Scotland) (Green) Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con) Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab) Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD) Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO ATTENDED: Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Sarah Boyack (Edinburgh Central) (Lab) Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD) Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP) Johann Lamont (Deputy Minister for Communities) Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab) John Farquhar Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Steve Farrell SENIOR ASSISTANT CLERK Katy Orr ASSISTANT CLERK Catherine Fergusson LOCATION Committee Room 4 3857 13 SEPTEMBER 2006 3858 Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green): Scottish Parliament Amendment 175 would extend the sustainable development duty that is already present in the Communities Committee earlier sections of the bill in relation to the national planning framework and other aspects to Wednesday 13 September 2006 development management. During our stage 1 inquiry and previous stage 2 [THE CONVENER opened the meeting at 09:30] debates, I was very pleased about the extent to which sustainable development has been Planning etc (Scotland) Bill: accepted across the political spectrum as being a Stage 2 large part of what the planning system should be about. We might differ at times over exactly what it means, and I might take a slightly more The Convener (Karen Whitefield): I open the rd pessimistic view of the extent to which we have 23 meeting of the Communities Committee in achieved sustainable development in Scotland at 2006 and remind everyone present that mobile present, but we all agree that the planning system phones should be turned off. is an important tool in achieving sustainable The only item on today‟s agenda is our third day development, whatever we regard that to mean. of consideration of amendments to the Planning The usual argument against extending the duty etc (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. Members should to development management is that it would place have before them their copies of the bill, the unnecessary burdens or impose restrictions in marshalled list and the groupings. I welcome the individual cases or on certain developments—it Deputy Minister for Communities, Johann Lamont, would create unnecessary hoops to jump through. to the committee. She is accompanied by the Amendment 175 provides for Scottish ministers to following Scottish Executive officials: Tim issue guidance on the interpretation of the Barraclough, John McNairney, Alan Cameron, legislation, which would overcome that problem. I Norman MacLeod and Stuart Foubister. think that it is worth pushing the issue. I also welcome to the committee Donald Gorrie, I move amendment 175. John Farquhar Munro and Sarah Boyack, all of whom I know have an interest in the committee‟s Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): considerations today. Amendment 124 covers two points: first, existing buildings for which better insulation or a For the benefit of all those present, I should microrenewable energy scheme is sought; and explain that this morning, and during the secondly, energy efficiency and microrenewables remainder of stage 2 consideration of the Planning in new buildings. etc (Scotland) Bill, we will be using our electronic voting system should there be any divisions on There have been a number of examples of amendments. planning committees making what I regard as bad decisions against people who want to improve It might be helpful to point out a few things their house with double glazing, solar panels or before we commence. First, to speed things along, one of those modern, neat little windmill things on if a member does not wish to move their the roof. At the moment, there seems to be an amendment, they should simply say, “Not moved.” assumption against them and I am trying to In that event, any other member may move the achieve an assumption in favour of them, all other amendment, but I will not specifically invite other things being equal. I am not saying that planning members to do so. If no other member moves the committees must approve such schemes, as there amendment, I will simply go to the next might be exceptionally strong amenity grounds amendment on the marshalled list. why they should not. However, the assumption Secondly, if a member wishes to withdraw an should be tilted in favour of the applicant who is amendment, I will put the question, “Does anyone trying to improve the energy efficiency of a house object to the amendment being withdrawn?” If any or group of houses or to introduce a local member objects, I will immediately put the microrenewable scheme. question on the amendment. There are examples of housing associations that Finally, if I am required to use my casting vote, I have not had as much co-operation as they might intend to vote for the status quo, which on this in trying to produce really good, modern, energy- occasion is the bill as it stands. efficient new houses. Again, the assumption should be in favour of the inclusion of energy Before section 3 efficiency schemes and microrenewable power sources in new developments. The more we have The Convener: Amendment 175, in the name of local microrenewable schemes, the less we will Patrick Harvie, is grouped with amendment 124. 3859 13 SEPTEMBER 2006 3860 have huge arguments about tall pylons and so on. greater uncertainty and delay and would greatly The more energy can be created locally, the better increase the scope for legal challenge, putting it will be from everyone‟s point of view. planning matters back into the courts—which would then become the forum for determining I welcome the fact that other members have what constitutes a contribution to sustainable different approaches to the bill and other development. As there are about 50,000 planning proposals, but I think that it would be helpful to applications in Scotland every year, such a have a little bit in the Planning etc (Scotland) Bill to change could affect the efficiency of the system. In promote the sort of ideas that I have spoken any case, our reforms mean that applications for about. developments that are not in development plans I hope that the committee will accept will be subject to much greater scrutiny. amendment 124. The committee has already rejected an Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) amendment with a very similar effect to that of (SNP): I have a question for Donald Gorrie, which amendment 175 and I urge members to reject the minister will perhaps also pick up on. I am amendment 175 as well. sympathetic towards amendment 124, but I would Donald Gorrie‟s amendment 124 identifies like to know what Donald Gorrie has in mind. I was energy-related issues as material considerations hoping that he would explain what he meant by that should be enshrined in legislation. I agree that “exceptionally strong amenity grounds”. That is such issues are indeed important. where the rub lies. Perhaps Donald Gorrie could give some concrete examples; the minister might A theme that runs through all dealings with be able to talk about that, too. legislation is whether the legislation is a means of promoting an idea. There is a distinction between The Convener: Dave Petrie, do you wish to the policy or politics behind an issue and what contribute? goes into the legislation, and there will always be Dave Petrie (Highlands and Islands) (Con): arguments over what should and should not go in. No—I was just chewing my pen. I reassure Donald Gorrie that we are very aware of the issues surrounding microrenewables. He will The Convener: I am sorry—I thought that you know that we have issued a planning advice note were indicating an interest in the debate. on microrenewables and are currently undertaking I invite Mr Gorrie to respond to the specific research on permitted development rights for points that Christine Grahame raised. microrenewables. That will probably address the issue that Donald Gorrie has raised. Donald Gorrie: This is one of those times when I have to cop out. I do not think that the law can We accept that the issues are important, but contain something precise enough to cover every existing legislation already ensures that all area. It would be up to the local planning material considerations are taken into account committee to make the decisions. Presumably, in when determining planning applications. Where attractive areas that committees would not wish to relevant, those will include the considerations that spoil, they would take a slightly different view. Mr Gorrie proposes. It would not be appropriate to single out specific issues in legislation, particularly There would have to be exceptionally strong when they are often addressed by control regimes amenity grounds not to approve schemes, and outwith planning. Already, the Executive includes there would have to be more than just one or two guidance on how the planning system should deal neighbours saying that a proposal was not a good with certain developments in its planning policy thing.