Maine Public Utilities Commission s1

1 MAINE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION 1 AUGUSTA, MAINE2 IN RE: ) 3 ) MAINE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION ) September 13, 2012 4 )5 Dig Safe Stakeholders Meeting 6 APPEARANCES: 7 RICHARD DAVIES, Moderator 8 MATT KAPLY, Maine Public Utilities Commission DEREK DAVIDSON, Maine Public Utilities Commission 9 PATTY MOODY-D'ANGELO, Office of the Public Advocate GREG CONNORS, Maine Municipal Association 10 TOM BAHUN, Maine Rural Water Association ROBERT FINELLI, Dig Safe 11 CARL BISSON, Suburban Propane BEN SANBORN, Telecommunications Association of Maine 12 BRUCE BROWN, Shaw Brothers Construction BRUCE HUBBARD, Enterprise Trenchless Technologies, Inc. 13 CARL WALLACE, Maine Drilling & Blasting SAM MURRAY, Unitil Natural Gas 14 MARK TURNER, Waterville Public Works Department KEVIN MURPHY, R.J. Grondin & Sons 15 MARK LEVESQUE, OnTarget Utility Services KATHLEEN DUMAINE, FairPoint Communications 16 ARTHUR BROWN, Central Maine Power Company MATT MARKS, Associated General Contractors of Maine 17 SHARON STAZ, Kennebunk Light & Power District ALAN DOW, Champagne's Energy 1819202122232425 BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 2 1 CONFERENCE COMMENCED (September 13, 2012, 10:05 a.m.)2 MR. DAVIES: Okay, the recorder is ready to go so 3 we're ready to go. Thanks for being here. We'll start out by 4 seeing if anybody had an opportunity to review the transcript 5 from the last meeting and whether you had any corrections or 6 additions that you want made to that. If not, then we'll 7 assume that it's as accurate as it's going to get. Thank you. 8 Do we have folks who are on the telephone line?9 MR. BROWN: Art Brown is on the line.10 MR. DAVIES: Oh, okay, Art. Anybody else? Guess 11 not. Okay. I wanted to review a couple of things before we 12 got into the discussion topic for the day. The first is for an13 update on the subcommittee on best management practices. We 14 did meet after the last meeting. We had a very good discussion15 was my sense. Other folks may want to weigh in on that as 16 well, but we did, I think, had pretty good progress on that. 17 Stan Grover chaired the subcommittee and gave out a number of 18 assignments that I know folks are working on right now. And we19 will hopefully convene another meeting of the subcommittee 20 sometime within the next ten days or so. We'd hoped to do it 21 today, but we found there was an insufficient number of members22 who were going to be able to be here for what essentially was a23 full day so we'll schedule it as a separate one.24 And in the previous meeting I'd given folks copies of25 the disincentives that people had identified after our first BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 3 1 meeting, and a lot of that is going to be part of the subject 2 of the discussion today. So if you haven't got copies of that,3 I probably have some available. I'd be glad to pass them out 4 to folks if they need them. I see a few hands. As I noted in 5 the agenda, it's time for us to start getting down to a serious6 discussion about whether it's possible to get to a real one-7 call system and what it will take to get to that point. And so8 I've listed a number of pieces of that discussion, one of which9 clearly is the disincentives that folks had identified. But 10 today's discussion really will focus on what are the important 11 pieces of a one-call system that we might be able to do, what 12 do we need to do in order to persuade those people who have 13 been reluctant to join that there is value in doing so, and 14 what do we need to get to that point. So there's a lot of 15 little pieces to that, and hopefully we will have a free-16 flowing discussion rather than focusing on any one at a time. 17 Though there's some value in probably starting, since we've had18 another discussion about the -- the disincentives, of maybe 19 starting at that point. To the degree that we can eliminate 20 disincentives, that clearly helps moves us towards where we can21 go or what we need to do in order to provide sufficient 22 incentives for people who are not part of the system to 23 recognize the value in joining it. Changes to the cost benefit24 ratios that they see and hopefully improve the benefits and 25 reduce the cost so to speak. BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 4 1 Greg Connors, I'm going to ask you -- given the fact 2 that -- I won't say that you represent those people who are 3 concerned about this, but you certainly represent -- one of 4 groups has expressed some reservations about that.5 MR. CONNORS: Sure.6 MR. DAVIES: And I wonder if you could give us your 7 thoughts on whether it's possible to get to a point when 8 there's enough in it for people who are not members to justify 9 them joining it and if you might be able to identify things you10 think are key to getting to that point.11 MR. CONNORS: Sure, Dick, I could try. Greg Connors,12 MMA. I think probably the hurdle is -- I mean, and I know it's13 not a significant cost, but it still costs and the potential 14 for penalties. Right now, that's not an issue, and it's not 15 just the cost of this particular program, or joining -- 16 becoming a member of Dig Safe. I think it's -- it's all 17 encompassing. We're talking about -- I'm in -- other subgroups18 -- other working groups over the summer such as Stormwater, and19 we're talking about increasing the standard for culvert sizing 20 through aquatic resource management strategies, all at the same21 time where we're dealing with [raise] to state revenue sharing 22 and not fully funding education, according to state statutes, 23 and so on and so forth and also pressure from the local -- you 24 know, the local taxpayer.25 So I think cost is a concern for sure. I would like BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 5 1 to at some point -- I think I've expressed this in earlier 2 meetings. I don't want to just say it's too costly, we're 3 going to walk away from the table. What I would like to do is 4 once we've identified the disincentives, which I think we have 5 at earlier meetings, is maybe to provide a list of incentives 6 that might entice membership for municipalities and provide 7 that information to our membership through either an email or 8 survey of some sort, and -- or at our first legislative policy 9 meeting, which is October 3rd. We will be setting or 10 establishing our legislative agenda for the upcoming session, 11 but if there's time, we could certainly discuss this particular12 issue to see what -- what there is for interest, what -- what 13 thoughts and what ideas I might get from those committee 14 members. It's a new committee. A lot of the same -- there's a15 lot of the same people on it, but there are new faces as well. 16 So I -- and I'm pretty much a rookie at MMA so I rely a lot on 17 my fellow staff folks, Jeff Herman and Kate Dufour, for sort of18 direction, in addition to the LPC.19 So -- and -- and I think we've all discussed the 20 disincentives, and I would agree with those, and I'd be 21 interested to hear what there might be for BMPs that comes 22 about from this other subcommittee, and I definitely would be 23 willing to participate in that, come to that -- come to that 24 next meeting, and also to sort of review these incentives that 25 we come up with in this group, and go forward with that. Does BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 6 1 that help at all?2 MR. DAVIES: That's -- it would be good, though, if 3 you could maybe talk a little bit more about what you see as 4 possible incentives, not that you're saying this is what we 5 want --6 MR. CONNORS: I rely on you guys. I mean, and I 7 could also -- what I could do I think probably that would be 8 helpful for you folks is I could, in fact, survey. I haven't 9 to date, but I could, in fact, survey municipal officials. We 10 do a lot of this stuff so we don't want to over -- you know, we11 don't want to overburden them because the response rate will 12 probably decrease when we do that, but I think this is worthy 13 of sending a survey out and ask them for some incentives. I 14 think that would be a lot more helpful than me trying to guess 15 what our membership would say. I know it doesn't help for 16 today's meeting --17 MR. DAVIES: Yeah.18 MR. CONNORS: -- but I think that would probably be a19 much more useful use of time and exercise.20 MR. DAVIES: Well, let me open it up a little bit. 21 Any folks here got thoughts on what might be incentives that 22 might be useful to have under consideration? And I think we've23 sort of gone through the disincentives and have a pretty good 24 idea on that. Greg?25 MR. CONNORS: Sorry. Greg Connors, MMA. I will say BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 7 1 that there will be a lot of reservation and that there'll 2 probably be a lot of push back. If -- and I'm not saying that 3 this is what this group wants to do, but I mean, if you're 4 looking to sort of mandate membership for municipalities, 5 that's a bad word with our LPC and our membership. So I think 6 the approach that you're taking is a good one, to provide 7 incentives for voluntary membership and so that they can see 8 the benefits of membership to Dig Safe.9 MR. DAVIES: Well, let me throw out one idea that was10 kicked around earlier. If we found some way of coming up with 11 some money from someplace to provide communities with the 12 ability to join without having a cost of membership for a 13 couple of years or so, would that be the kind of incentive that14 might persuade folks to -- to try it out in a sense, sort of a 15 test membership?16 MR. CONNORS: Yeah, I think so. Would it -- would it17 sort of work the way it did in, was it New Hampshire?18 MR. DAVIES: I think that was the model or the 19 example that we had --20 MR. CONNORS: Where you were --21 MR. DAVIES: -- last meeting.22 MR. CONNORS: They asked people to join with -- and 23 they provided an incentive, a financial incentive for a year, 24 and then at that point in time, it became a choice of that 25 particular member or municipality as to whether they wanted to BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 8 1 continue or not.2 MR. DAVIES: Yeah. And I think the sense was once 3 you're in there and you experience it in reality as opposed to 4 what you've heard about it being outside the system, if it 5 doesn't provide your needs, we can't retain you anyway so 6 there's nothing that we could force you to stay in there. But 7 if there's a belief that there are benefits of being in there 8 that will be realized by a formerly non-member, gets in there, 9 spends a couple years, sees those of things, the likelihood 10 that they stay is probably greatly increased is sort of the 11 thought behind that. Mark, I see you kind of perked up your 12 eyes there on that.13 MR. TURNER: Excuse me, Mark Turner, city of 14 Waterville Department of Public Works. I think a trial program15 would be the best incentive for municipal operations at this 16 point, to give everybody an experience with -- with the program17 to see how it works and what the -- evaluate what -- what the 18 potential costs might be. Some of these communities have very 19 small budgets and would have difficulty absorbing a lot of 20 costs outside of what they're already doing. So I think 21 possibly a trial program may be a better benefit to offer at 22 this point.23 MR. DAVIES: All right. Bruce?24 MR. HUBBARD: Mark, I guess in -- Bruce Hubbard, 25 ETTI. You take a small community that may only have -- and we BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 9 1 have a -- Bob has provided us with a list of Dig Safe tickets 2 that go through a town, but you take a small town that may only3 have two or 300 Dig Safe tickets in the run of a year at a 4 dollar a pop would be very small change, you know, for the 5 amount of information that you'd get out of it. I don't see 6 that the cost for a small town, anyway, would be significant.7 MR. DAVIES: I think that's an interesting point. We8 do have the list. And I think I gave this to folks, the list 9 that Bob Finelli provided us of each municipality in the state 10 of Maine over a 13-month period, the number of tickets they got11 in each of those months. And it's a relatively small number, 12 and the -- Maine in that time period had a little over 63,000. 13 You divide that by the number of communities we have and by 13 14 months, you're talking about a pretty small number of tickets 15 per month. So if anybody wants to look at that list, I'd be 16 glad to share this or we can send out additional copies if you 17 have misplaced the one that we provided earlier. Greg?18 MR. CONNORS: Dick, thank you. I mean, I can 19 appreciate that. It is a small amount when you look at it by 20 itself. I mean, we're looking at all the costs associated with21 -- with running a municipal government. And right now, 22 taxpayers -- probably taxpayers don't want -- I don't -- I 23 mean, I don't know, but I don't think taxpayers want an 24 increase at all. They want their taxes lowered or -- or 25 maintained at the current level. So I can appreciate it when BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 10 1 you look at it on its own. I certainly can appreciate that 2 it's 200 bucks or whatever for a particular municipality. And 3 again, I -- I'm a new guy so I'd much rather get this -- get 4 this feedback from my membership before -- you know, before I 5 take a final vote or anything like that, but that's my sense is6 what I'm going to get when I survey these folks.7 MR. DAVIES: Bob, I see you moving your microphone.8 MR. FINELLI: Yeah, Bob Finelli from Dig Safe. Just 9 to Greg's -- I can appreciate what he's up against. A couple 10 thoughts I have are the ability to create a permit for a street11 opening in each city or town, where the information you get 12 from Dig Safe will aid whether people apply for that permit or 13 not, and it's also a revenue source that will help defray the 14 cost of membership. If you have a $50 permit fee and the Dig 15 Safe ticket costs you a buck, you got $49 now to handle the 16 cost of the mark up. So there is a way to turn this into a 17 kind of a chance to make money in terms of covering some of the18 costs that towns might run into so we have to think of that. 19 Also, I'm not sure where the money comes from for a damage, for20 the repair because that money could be funneled toward 21 preventing the damage if the money is already in the budget. 22 Because I'm sure if a water main gets damaged and you got to 23 send somebody out or a frost heave causes damage in the middle 24 of the night, there's money appropriated for fixing it. Maybe 25 there's something that could be done there. Just some BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 11 1 thoughts. But I can appreciate your position.2 MR. CONNORS: Right. I mean, I think people -- I 3 think there will be some push back with an additional permit 4 maybe from --5 MR. FINELLI: From the general public?6 MR. CONNORS: Yeah, exactly, sure. So --7 MR. DAVIES: Sam?8 MR. MURRAY: Yeah, Sam Murray, Unitil. And just 9 backing up, Bob, that was -- on the best practices, that was 10 one of the things that we brought up, that you can generate the11 revenue because -- and Portland just had an example because 12 there was a contractor down there digging and they got into 13 some situations so they ended up calling an emergency dig safe 14 and the city had no permit. The person didn't even have an 15 excavation license to dig in the town. So right there, they're16 already going after this contractor to recoup their revenues 17 because the contractor actually left the trench wide open and 18 that's why I got called out because our gas line was hanging 19 right in the middle of the trench and the trench was caving in.20 So there's some incentives as far as that goes. We 21 did have an example at our meeting also, and I'm not sure who 22 it was, but they -- there was a water line up in -- I think it 23 was up in Dexter. I don't know the exact specifics, but there 24 again, if you're not -- if the municipalities aren't going out 25 and marking it out and somebody hits it, you're eating that BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 12 1 cost for that damage. And I think that one was in the -- I 2 don't think it was over a hundred, but I think it was just 3 under a hundred thousand dollars for that repair. So right 4 there, that municipality's got to eat that cost because they 5 hit it but it wasn't marked out which, if they were on the Dig 6 Safe, they're going to be sending something out to mark out 7 their facilities. But there is some other --8 MR. CONNORS: Why didn't they mark that out?9 MR. MURRAY: Because they weren't on Dig Safe. They 10 weren't aware that there was going to be a dig out there.11 MR. CONNORS: Because they weren't on Dig Safe?12 MR. MURRAY: Well --13 MR. CONNORS: How does it work right now then? I 14 mean, shouldn't the excavator be contacting OK-to-Dig --15 MR. MURRAY: And they do that. That's --16 MR. CONNORS: -- duplicate a dig?17 MR. MURRAY: That's one of the issues is that's not 18 maintained on a good basis.19 MR. CONNORS: So you're going to -- okay, so you're 20 going to mandate membership --21 MR. MURRAY: And so you may or may not have the 22 correct people to notify in that case.23 MR. SANBORN: And I think that's the point. It's not24 mandating, but if you choose not to be a member, then you're 25 greatly increasing your liability to your town because not only BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 13 1 on the direct issue of the damage to the pipe, but what if 2 there's a damage that puts water back in somebody's house, they3 come after the town to try and recoup for the damages to their 4 home, and they get their attorney to say they had an option to 5 join and they chose not to join this system that would have 6 prevented this, and then now, all of a sudden, the town looks a7 lot more liable. So it's not a mandate. I mean, that sort -- 8 when you talk about incentives, here's an incentive that a buck9 a call versus $40,000 when something happens.10 MR. CONNORS: Right. It's -- okay, and it's their 11 cost analysis to go --12 MR. SANBORN: Right, exactly.13 MR. CONNORS: -- provide incentives so that it makes 14 it even more beneficial to join.15 MR. SANBORN: Right.16 MR. DAVIDSON: And Dick, maybe -- I was going to say 17 -- I was going to throw out an example where I think everybody 18 did -- it seemed like everybody tried to do the right thing, 19 and we still had a problem. And it -- this is the OK-to-Dig 20 versus Dig Safe. Have a town -- and this was a recent 21 incident. There's a town that's a member -- has chosen to be a22 member of Dig Safe. And so the excavator who's working in that23 town says, knowing that the town is a member of Dig Safe, I 24 don't need to call OK-to-Dig because all the water lines are 25 going to be marked out. Correct, for that town. BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 14 1 MR. CONNORS: Right.2 MR. DAVIDSON: The near -- the next -- the adjacent 3 town also had water lines in the area. They didn't call OK-to-4 Dig because they assumed they didn't need to, hit the lines. 5 So -- and I think those types of things is an example of, you 6 know, everybody's trying to do the right thing, but because 7 you've got two different systems, confusion and ultimately 8 damage.9 MR. DAVIES: Sam?10 MR. MURRAY: Yeah, and that's the thing is this is 11 supposed to be a one-call system with the Dig Safe, and right 12 now it's not a true one-call system. You call in and they will13 refer you to call OK-to-Dig and you have that information, but 14 the thing is if everything on that was right up to date, they 15 -- it's not maintained as much I guess as it really should be 16 at this point and what not.17 MR. DAVIES: Yeah.18 MR. MURRAY: So yeah, that's -- that's the biggest 19 thing. The other point you made, Greg, though, that I think 20 would be helpful for this group and the best practices group is21 if you did get a survey out because I think that will help us 22 get focused on what we really need.23 MR. CONNORS: Oh, yeah, take what I say with a grain 24 of salt. I think getting -- getting responses from Mark and 25 the rest of the folks that are out in the field and also the BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 15 1 municipal officials that are sort of, you know, doling out this2 money that they've been approved to appropriate is the best way3 to go about it. Yeah, I agree.4 MR. DAVIES: Our reporter has noted that a lot of 5 folks are not speaking with the microphone in front of them. 6 You don't need to push it out of the way when you stop speaking7 because if you're not saying anything, it's not picking up 8 anything. So just leave it in front of you. That way when you9 start speaking, you don't have to worry about whether it's 10 there or not.11 I would reiterate what Sam said, that the OK-to-Dig 12 system has some limitations, primarily due to the limited 13 budget that's available to fund it. And I think both Derek and14 Matt have explained in the past that they understand that there15 are limitations with that system. In addition to that, you've 16 got the problem that even though people are told about the 17 system, there isn't the ability to make sure that they actually18 call us so that there's a lot less contact made with people 19 around that list than those who are the members of Dig Safe. 20 So if the calls aren't being made, for whatever reason, it 21 increases the risk that something's going to happen that was 22 not what anybody intended to have happen. So that's sort of a 23 thing that has a value, though I'm not sure we could all 24 calculate exactly what it would be, but clearly there is a real25 value in having everybody be contacted to go out and mark. BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 16 1 Bruce?2 MR. BROWN: Bruce Brown with Shaw Brothers. Dick, 3 from what I understand, the PUC receives money to keep the OK-4 to-Dig going. Is -- if that money could be looked at to get 5 transferred to Dig Safe -- I don't know what that amount of 6 money it is -- and have that transferred that way and offset 7 municipalities' costs, is that something we can look at or -- 8 if we got some numbers or --9 MR. DAVIES: I think I'll turn to Derek to respond to10 that.11 MR. DAVIDSON: I don't believe we receive any money. 12 I think we pay for it out of our own fund. Now, whether we 13 could divert what we currently contribute towards OK-to-Dig to 14 something else, I'd have to look into it.15 MR. SANBORN: I've taken a little bit of a look at 16 the budget in the statute for the Commission and Derek's right.17 It's not that there's like some grant that they get from 18 somewhere. It's just on their budget they put $50,000. All 19 utilities who pay into the assessment pay money to make up that20 $50,000. So it's just -- it's purely an assessment issue 21 internally. So could they use it for other purposes? 22 Probably. Internally, I don't know what there are for dynamics23 in terms of saying we're going to collect money from all the 24 utilities and then pay it out to municipalities. That becomes 25 -- because it's not a tax per se. It's not a general fund BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 17 1 issue. It's, in theory, assessments for utility service. 2 Arguably, Dig Safe, because it's designed for the protection of3 underground facilities that are usually owned by utilities, I 4 think it's -- to the extent they've already funded OK-to-Dig 5 which is we're collecting money in order to promote safety of 6 utility facilities through Dig Safe, I don't think it's a huge 7 stretch to say we're doing the exact same thing, we're just 8 doing it in a different way. Instead of creating a website, 9 we're using it to help incentivize municipalities in order to 10 get this one-call system which will increase the safety of the 11 system and the integrity of the underground facilities. So I 12 think it's do-able. There could be some push back either 13 internally at the Commission or once the budget gets to the 14 Energy Utilities & Technology Committee at the legislature, if 15 they look at that and say, you know, it looks like a tax to us,16 are we taxing for an appropriate means. So it's not a slam 17 dunk that, yes, you can, but there's a really good chance, 18 especially if everyone's behind it, that you could probably 19 make it happen.20 MR. DAVIES: Kathleen?21 MR. BROWN: Dick, this is Art Brown.22 MR. DAVIES: Okay, Art.23 MR. BROWN: -- Central Maine Power. Part of the 24 problems with the OK-to-Dig, you've only got partial 25 information that's of value. The phone numbers are not kept up BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 18 1 to date. Many times with municipalities, it might not be the 2 right department or phone number. Several times the OK-to-Dig,3 there's no after-hours numbers to contact. So this really is a4 partial value process with not having after-hours numbers to 5 get responses after business hours, maybe weekends or car pole 6 accidents at night. That is a big part of the benefits of 7 going to -- being a Dig Safe member. If the OK-to-Dig site is 8 selected to go forward, then a lot of updating has to be done. 9 Municipalities that own underground facilities need to be on 10 the site, need to be aware of what they own so they can mark it11 out and locate it. There's a lot of things on the non-members 12 that, under the current process, we're missing.13 MR. DAVIES: Thanks, Art. Kathleen?14 MS. DUMAINE: Kathleen Dumaine with FairPoint. I was15 just going to mention that -- I heard you say $50,000, and I 16 just want to know if I heard you correctly that that $50,000 is17 appropriated to keep the OK-to-Dig website up and running?18 MR. DAVIDSON: It -- it's not appropriated. It 19 basically comes out of our budget so there's no independent 20 funding source. It comes out of our budget --21 MS. DUMAINE: Right.22 MR. DAVIDSON: -- the PUC's budget.23 MS. DUMAINE: But is that a line item in the budget, 24 $50,000 OK-to-Dig?25 MR. DAVIDSON: Correct. BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 19 1 MS. DUMAINE: Okay. So I guess to need to ask the 2 question then. If we have that much money appropriated -- or 3 if -- I say we, I'm expounding a little there, but it makes me 4 beg the question why is it not working? Why is it not up to 5 date? If it's funded to a level where $50,000 -- it seems to 6 me the -- I mean, you want to pay me $50,000, I'll take that 7 website on.8 MR. DAVIDSON: I think it's -- it's -- the reason 9 that I'm correcting like the appropriated and things, there's 10 no money that's coming to us. We're taking part of our budget 11 and attributing it to this. So theoretically whatever we 12 attribute to this is being taken away from something else. So 13 we basically use all of the money to maintain the database, and14 we pay a vendor. But we don't have any staff that's dedicated 15 to -- to maintaining that database. In other words, we pay a 16 vendor to actually run it, but to do I think the things that 17 Art was probably just talking about is you would -- that would 18 require staff because you'd have to call of the folks that are 19 on the OK-to-Dig list and -- and you'd have to do it 20 continuously because they're already supposed to be contacting 21 us if there's any change. We send out an annual letter to 22 them, but obviously there are gaps. And I think to close those23 gaps, you'd actually have to have somebody that was being much 24 more proactive and we don't have any staff that are dedicated 25 to doing that. BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 20 1 MS. DUMAINE: Okay, I understand that. I guess then 2 my question would be -- is what does it cost for the website?3 MR. DAVIDSON: I don't know. I'd have to check.4 MS. DUMAINE: Okay. Certainly not 50,000?5 MR. DAVIDSON: We're not -- I think the key piece is 6 we're not getting 50,000, and we shouldn't get too hung up on 7 that, is we've incorporated that into our budget, but whatever 8 it costs, it costs. In other words -- and I -- and I'd have to9 go back to see. Every time we get an expense, this is an 10 expense just like any other expense, we decide can we absorb 11 it. If we can't, we have to increase our assessment. To 12 increase our assessment, we've got to go back to the 13 legislature and get the legislature to approve that increase. 14 We typically try to avoid that. So I would have to check. For15 all I know, when we -- when we got this, we absorbed it. We 16 paid it out of our money and said let's -- we'll just absorb 17 it, we won't ask for an increase. We typically don't for a 18 specific line item.19 But this is part of -- there -- you know, what Ben 20 said is exactly right, is that when -- anything that we fund is21 technically being paid by all the utilities that pay the 22 assessment to run the Commission. And so you could go down 23 line item by line item, and there's all kinds of other things 24 that are in there as well. I can get information about how 25 much money we are spending on an annual basis and -- and I can BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 21 1 also talk about, you know, can we continue -- you know, could 2 we put that money toward something else. I think that's a good3 idea. But what Ben was saying is a good point, is that you 4 always run the risk of another utility or someone else who's 5 not benefitting from that saying that's not an appropriate use 6 of money, for the Commission to be spending money that I just 7 paid to go out and do this work. And that's just something I 8 -- I can't predict how that would go.9 MS. DUMAINE: Okay. I guess -- and I understand 10 that. And then maybe beyond that, I was looking at it like a 11 sheer budget line item, $50,000 to run OK-to-Dig, in the whole 12 scope of, you know, running your department. And -- and so I 13 thought if that's the actual cost, then we're certainly not 14 getting -- as a utility, we're not getting our dollar value for15 that 50,000. So that was one question. And then maybe a 16 suggestion beyond that: should we take some of the actual 17 penalty money that is assessed and use that to update, hire 18 someone -- hire someone part time -- I can't imagine it would 19 take a full-time position -- hire a part-time person to 20 maintain that OK-to-Dig website, assuring that phone calls are 21 made and -- and contacts are taken care of if we don't go down 22 the road of true one-call membership.23 MR. DAVIES: I'm -- I'm going to just supplement a 24 little bit what Derek said about the source of the money. As 25 was mentioned, this is based on an assessment of utilities, and BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 22 1 what you have in the Dig Safe system, you have utilities that 2 are subject to the assessment. You also have other entities 3 that are not subject to the assessment but are also getting the4 benefit of it. So it's not as neat a situation as you would 5 like. You'd like to have everybody paying in for a system that6 everybody is benefiting from. In this instance, you have some 7 of the parties that, because they are not deemed to be 8 utilities but are subject to Dig Safe, are in the system but 9 aren't necessarily paying for it. Ben?10 MR. SANBORN: And just to follow up on that, it's -- 11 where we're getting the 50,000 from is the -- the annual report12 that the Commission issued. They included in their most recent13 annual report, the fiscal year 2012 work program, which has the14 line item interestingly: Commission damage prevention, $50,000.15 So it doesn't actually specifically reference OK-to-Dig so I 16 think the way -- and that's essentially already been paid for. 17 It's not an assessment in that it doesn't go through -- it's 18 not an appropriation in that it doesn't go through 19 appropriations commission -- or committee, but it's been 20 appropriated from the utilities. And I think it's a good point21 that it's not everybody, and that this would essentially -- it 22 would be the utilities saying in order -- the benefits of the 23 one-call system are significant enough to us that it makes 24 sense that this assessment that we've been paying all along 25 might be more cost effective if, instead of having this website BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 23 1 which we feel is flawed, we use it to give a more direct, and 2 hopefully more effective, direction and use it to bring people 3 into a one-call system.4 So I think it's -- it's defensible if it's something 5 that's going to make the one-call system work. With regard to 6 penalties, I don't think you can hire somebody using the 7 penalties because that assumes that there's going to be a set 8 level of amount collected every year and -- however, that being9 said, if what we're talking about is can we incentivize for a 10 trial program, get people on for a year, maybe two, and then 11 see if they'll stay on on their own, that might be something 12 that it would be useable for, that you could say -- and I think13 if this -- if it's a direction the group wants to go, I think 14 it might have to give notice to the Commission fairly soon 15 about it -- freeze what you've collected so far, don't turn it 16 over to the general fund. Because there was a letter that came17 from the EUT committee chairs that said we're not going to tell18 you you have to use the funds in any way, but we strongly 19 encourage you to utilize them consistent with the protection of20 the Dig Safe system. And so if we basically said hold onto it,21 don't turn it over while we're talking about this, it might 22 give us at least a short-term boost of maybe even like $100,00023 to help getting this program started to try and bring people in24 on a trial period and hopefully, you know, get them hooked on 25 the system. It's something worth thinking about if one of the BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 24 1 things we're looking at is how to offset the cost issues for 2 communities, and that might give them time to set up new 3 permitting systems or something like that to account for this.4 MR. DAVIES: Greg?5 MR. CONNORS: Greg Connors, MMA. We briefly touched 6 on New Hampshire creating a sort of trial program. Have any 7 other New England states done it?8 MR. FINELLI: No.9 MR. CONNORS: And Bob, how many -- after the trial 10 period was over, how many municipalities stayed in the Dig Safe11 program in New Hampshire?12 MR. FINELLI: It came out to around 50 percent, half.13 MR. CONNORS: Did you get feedback -- probably not --14 as to why folks stayed and folks decided to go back?15 MR. FINELLI: No.16 MR. CONNORS: And so what did they go back to? Was 17 there sort of like an OK-to-Dig program in New Hampshire?18 MR. FINELLI: No, there's nothing like that in any of19 the other states.20 MR. CONNORS: Okay.21 MR. DAVIES: Bob, would you talk a little bit about 22 what it might cost for a small municipality or a utility or so 23 to be a member of Dig Safe as opposed to one of the principal 24 members?25 MR. FINELLI: Sure. It's simple. You take the -- BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 25 1 using the data I gave on the number of calls per municipality, 2 we can ballpark basically what a small water utility by finding3 out what towns they're in. They can do it themselves and, say,4 we wanted to start with 20 or 30 or 40 of them, I mean, if 5 we're talking $50,000, that's a lot of municipalities.6 MR. DAVIES: Yeah, it is.7 MR. FINELLI: But to get the number, all you go to do8 is it's a $1 call. We're -- Dig Safe already is going to eat 9 all the mapping costs needed to get members in. For instance, 10 I looked up into Bangor Water District, and people think Bangor11 Water District's only in Bangor, but it's not true. They're in12 a bunch of other towns, five or six other towns.13 MR. DAVIES: Yeah.14 MR. FINELLI: So in order to get calls in only pieces15 of the towns because they share those towns, kind of like what 16 Derek brought up, they're in a town where other water utilities17 are there also. So they want to map that area so they only get18 calls for the particular area they're in. Dig Safe will cover 19 all that, those mapping costs initially. The only time it gets20 fuzzy is if somebody decides to change their mapping every week21 and we start to have to pay mapping costs. But to set up their22 initial membership, there's no cost. So really we come down to23 four times a year, we come up with a bill of how many calls 24 they got, and we send a bill out for a dollar for each one. 25 That's it -- BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 26 1 MR. DAVIES: So a town that --2 MR. FINELLI: It's really simple.3 MR. DAVIES: So the town that got 46 tickets during a4 13-month period is going to pay $46?5 MR. FINELLI: Right, and they might get a bill for 6 $12 for the first quarter, you know, $14 for the next quarter, 7 $36 for -- whatever to add up to the number. So they're billed8 four times a year at that time of membership.9 MR. SANBORN: And to tie that back to the number of 10 requests, based on the information that Bob did hand out 11 earlier, from May 11 to May 12, it looked like the grand total 12 number of incoming locator requests was 63,393.13 MR. DAVIES: Right.14 MR. SANBORN: So at a dollar a pop, we're pretty 15 close.16 MR. FINELLI: But that's only -- that's -- remember, 17 that's incoming. The outbound side is different because there 18 could be more than one utility that is notified per ticket. 19 Our ratio is like 6.7 to 1. Now a bunch of then are principals20 which don't count--21 MR. SANBORN: Uh-huh.22 MR. FINELLI: -- but it won't fall exactly like that.23 It could be 80,000 calls went out, 90,000 calls went out.24 MR. SANBORN: Okay. That the municipalities would 25 have to pay for? BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 27 1 MR. FINELLI: Right. They -- they pay on the dollar 2 a call. So say there's three municipals on a Dig Safe ticket, 3 on that 63,000 calls that's one. But now we notified 6.7 4 utility companies per ticket.5 MR. SANBORN: Okay.6 MR. FINELLI: Dig Safe did about 500,000 calls, five-7 state region. We sent out three and a half million calls. 8 It's not a one-to-one ratio because there are multiple 9 utilities on each ticket.10 MR. SANBORN: Okay.11 MR. FINELLI: So the way you'd have to do it is you 12 have to look at each utility, each town to see what the utility13 would be in that town. For instance, you have a town list, but14 there could be more than one municipality in that town --15 MR. DAVIES: Yeah, yeah.16 MR. FINELLI: -- like my Bangor example.17 MR. SANBORN: Yeah.18 MR. FINELLI: So that's close. It gives you a 19 ballpark.20 MR. SANBORN: Okay.21 MR. FINELLI: But it's not exactly dollars.22 MR. SANBORN: So you'd estimate it'd be more like 23 80,000?24 MR. FINELLI: Possibly in that range, sure.25 MR. SANBORN: Okay. BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 28 1 MR. DAVIES: Bruce?2 MR. HUBBARD: Bruce Hubbard, ETTI. I think one of 3 the big things that we're truly missing here is that it isn't 4 the small amount of costs; it's the getting the water companies5 -- and let's just pick on Bangor since Bob brought it up. You 6 know, here's a huge company. It's got a number of services in 7 the Bangor/Orrington area, and --whatever. Their big reason 8 that I truly believe that they're not joining is that -- number9 is they're getting a 36-inch tolerance zone versus an 18-inch 10 tolerance zone, and number two is they're not ready to be fined11 because they're not a member. So that's their big incentive 12 for not joining as far as I'm concerned.13 MR. FINELLI: Hub's exactly right. We keep talking 14 about the dollars and sense. It's not the real issue. Hub's 15 right.16 MR. CONNORS: You might want to ask them directly 17 just to make sure.18 MR. FINELLI: Yeah, that survey would -- that we 19 spoke about would probably help us on that.20 MR. CONNORS: Absolutely.21 MR. HUBBARD: I think -- I mean, I think this 22 committee needs to move forward to come up with one tolerance 23 zone and the companies made to join these -- the Dig Safe so 24 that we can get into a one-call system. And the only we're 25 going to do it is move forward and -- and set a -- a -- one BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 29 1 tolerance zone and you got to join and make it a truly one-call2 system.3 MR. SANBORN: Unfortunately, as Greg noted, you -- 4 because of the way the state of Maine is set up, you can't make5 municipalities join. You just -- you can't. I mean, what -- 6 it's an unfunded mandate that would require a two-thirds 7 majority of the House to approve, and --8 MR. CONNORS: Or 90 percent of the funding has to 9 come from the state. It can't be another revenue source like 10 this permit.11 MR. SANBORN: Right.12 MR. CONNORS: The state has to come up with that, 90 13 percent of that cost of that mandate.14 MR. SANBORN: So that's -- it's a great idea, but you15 can't do it in Maine.16 MR. CONNORS: -- bring that up because it's -- but 17 you're absolutely right, Ben.18 MR. SANBORN: And so -- which is why I think it's 19 useful to look at the incentives, and one of the things that 20 we're talking about in the subcommittee on the best management 21 practices is is there a way to take away the concerns over 22 finding intolerance zones by saying, you know, here's a set of 23 best management principles, as long as you operate within this,24 you're going to be fine. One of the parts that is included in 25 the best management is an opportunity to have an on-the-spot BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 30 1 agreement between the excavator and the municipality that says,2 all right, for this one, what should the appropriate way to 3 locate the water pipe be. If it's something different from the4 18 inches, 36 inches, that's fine as long as everybody agrees 5 to it up front so that you can be working on the spot and make 6 it happen. And that falls within best management practices and7 you don't have to worry about it being a fine issue.8 MR. HUBBARD: Right.9 MR. SANBORN: You can actually worry about getting on10 with the job. And I think that that's a way that can provide 11 incentives. And then if we can find this 50,000, or some other12 way to -- to help funding offset, I think we've eliminated the 13 major hurdles. And deep down, I believe that the 14 municipalities know that there's a benefit and so if you can 15 take away the objections, they would want to be members because16 they would want to be protecting their facilities and their 17 employees. But there are hard realities of you have to take it18 to the voters, and the voters are not keen on increases of any 19 sort right now. So I think we're really close to it, though. 20 I think we're really close to a solution that's going to 21 hopefully bring people on board.22 MR. CONNORS: I couldn't have said it better myself, 23 Ben.24 MR. DAVIES: Kathleen?25 MS. DUMAINE: Would it be possible that, in moving BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 31 1 forward with this, that, you know, there would be some sort of 2 caveat in the mandate to be a member, if you may, where it 3 would be looked upon -- on the penalty side, that it would be 4 looked upon as a good-faith effort, at least for the trial 5 period, to see how that goes, you know, a good-faith effort to 6 get out there and do an appropriate locate? I would think that7 on the side of the excavator if they're at least getting out 8 there and attempting to do a good locate, because I know a lot 9 of them don't have appropriate records, don't really have a way10 to identify where they are, but they might say I think it's 11 here. You know, at least they know it's somewhere in the 12 vicinity. So if we could establish some kind of policy where 13 it's a good-faith effort, and then municipalities would not be 14 looking at penalties which would be huge. I mean, you pay a 15 dollar for a ticket, a minimum penalty's going to be $500 if 16 they're not marking out correctly. So just a suggestion, maybe17 we could do -- look at something like that, where they go out 18 and do a good-faith effort mark out.19 MR. CONNORS: They're not now? I mean, they're not 20 out there --21 MS. DUMAINE: If you became a member -- if they 22 become a member, then they're now (inaudible) the scrutiny of a23 penalty if they don't mark out correctly.24 MR. CONNORS: But I -- I think municipalities are out25 there with a good-faith effort of trying to mark their BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 32 1 facilities now, aren't they?2 MR. SANBORN: Oh, there are. I think the point is 3 that --4 MR. CONNORS: Yeah, I'm missing the point here.5 MR. SANBORN: -- even if you were a member and 6 working on a good-faith effort, you can still be fined. 7 There's a situation that just arose with one of the smaller 8 telephone companies where -- we're dealing with that right now 9 where everybody did everything right and followed the rule and 10 still got a $500 fine.11 MR. CONNORS: Well, that doesn't seem right, does it?12 MR. SANBORN: No. That's why we're going to be 13 talking about it with them. But it happens and so I'm not 14 surprised that municipalities would not want to walk into this 15 system. And that's part of the issue of coming to the best 16 management practices which is basically the good faith, which 17 is saying here's what you're supposed to do, as long as you're 18 doing your best to do this, then you're not open to a fine from19 the Commission. It's important to know that doesn't mean 20 you're not free from any and all liability. If you do 21 something and it, you know, causes damage to a homeowner's 22 property, they can still go to court. They can still, you 23 know, come after you. It doesn't protect you from anything 24 like that. All we're talking about is as long as you're doing 25 this, following this process, then there's no liability on the BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 33 1 Commission side. And it's if you step outside of this process,2 if you say I'm just not marking anything and the best practice 3 is that you mark something, well, then you're outside the 4 system and you should be fined. So that's sort of the -- the 5 conceptual structure.6 MR. DAVIES: Let me flesh out what I think Kathy was 7 trying to get at. The suggestion is that if we set up some 8 kind of trial membership for people who are in OK-to-Dig but 9 are not in Dig Safe, that one of the provisions would be we'd 10 find some way of subsidizing their membership and that we 11 perhaps would pass some provisional law that would say that 12 during the time of that provisional membership, that they would13 not be subject to fines in at least some circumstances. I'm 14 not sure we could say in all circumstances. If they are 15 negligent or so, then maybe you -- they still would be at risk 16 of that but give them some additional protection, at least 17 during that one- or two-year period that we'd say, you join, 18 we'll subsidize the membership, you're not subject to fines, at19 least not on initial ones, for that time period until you've 20 got some experience in here. Is that sort of what you're 21 getting at?22 MS. DUMAINE: Definitely. You know, if I'm sitting 23 on the budget committee in a town and I -- you know, this is my24 appropriations that I have and I have to, you know, figure out 25 where we're going to spend the money and where I need to cut BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 34 1 the money, and -- and I'm given the choice of becoming a Dig 2 Safe member and getting notifications and paying a dollar a 3 ticket, you know, like we said, that's little money. It's 4 little cost. And maybe the incentive for the town is -- you 5 know, but beyond that they look at it and they say, yes, but if6 I become a member, number one, my tolerance zone goes down; 7 number two, I become subjected to penalties if we don't mark 8 out accurately.9 MR. DAVIES: Uh-huh.10 MS. DUMAINE: So if we take away the penalty from 11 them at least during the trial period so they -- then they can 12 get an understanding of how it actually works. You know, it's 13 -- I think that's a huge disincentive for a municipality when 14 they're looking at penalties on top of their minimal cost to 15 join Dig Safe. Alan?16 MR. DOW: And during this trial period, you get the 17 -- you do your good-faith effort and the excavator's out there 18 digging and he's digging with your guys and all that and you 19 hit the line, you hit a four-inch main, cast iron, who's going 20 to pay to fix it?21 MS. DUMAINE: Well, I know that as a utility, we 22 would.23 MR. DOW: Great. I mean, I think that's what the 24 excavator would want to know too.25 MR. HUBBARD: But going back to what Sam said BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 35 1 earlier, you go into a small community, you've got a 16-inch 2 water main running down the middle of Main Street, the guy 3 calls Dig Safe because that's what he was taught to do and -- 4 but he doesn't call OK-to-Dig because he didn't pay attention 5 to everything that's out there, breaks the 16-inch water main, 6 half -- washes out half of Main Street. And I can't remember 7 where the place was, Sam, but he took out half of Main Street. 8 Who paid for all of that? I mean, maybe the contractor ended 9 up paying for it, but there's still a lot of inconvenience to a10 lot of people because the system wasn't followed. If the OK-to11 -- I mean, if the one-call system had been in place, this 12 probably would never have happened.13 MS. DUMAINE: Right, because he would have at least 14 -- the municipal would have been notified that he was going to 15 be digging and they would have at least communicated as to 16 where that facility was. So all of that could have been 17 prevented. You know, and -- and if I could make a reference to18 our CGA manuals --19 MR. DAVIES: Uh-huh.20 MS. DUMAINE: -- if folks would take a look at page 21 26, 3-26, one-call membership, it talks about anybody who 22 transports any type of underground service should be a member, 23 you know, that -- that without being a member to the one-call 24 center, that, you know, number one, it's a public safety risk 25 and damage to their facilities, endangering excavators -- so, BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 36 1 you know, it's in the best practices for CGA, which was a real 2 serious study.3 MR. DAVIES: Uh-huh.4 MS. DUMAINE: You know, and that might be something, 5 Greg, that you could, you know, in the survey mention this, you6 know.7 MR. CONNORS: Right. Isn't there also something in 8 there that talks about providing incentive for membership for 9 certain entities? I think I remember reading that.10 MS. DUMAINE: Not that -- not that I'm aware of, but 11 I think if we're going to do --12 MR. CONNORS: Page 58 --13 MS. DUMAINE: -- whoops, I'm sorry.14 MR. CONNORS: -- incentive membership accommodations.15 MS. DUMAINE: You say 2(a)?16 MR. CONNORS: To avoid cost being a barrier to 17 membership, several states have made membership accommodations 18 for smaller municipalities and authorities.19 MR. DOW: -- though.20 MR. CONNORS: Well, regardless, it's in this -- it's 21 in this thing.22 MR. HUBBARD: And Greg, I think, you know, the big 23 incentive is that -- not to disrupt the utility or not take out24 a road, or --25 MR. CONNORS: I mean, I -- yeah, and I think BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 37 1 municipalities don't -- I mean, they don't want their 2 underground facilities damaged. I mean, I would say that we 3 all could agree with that. Right? So --4 MS. DUMAINE: Yeah, and honestly, I think it's the 5 approach that we might -- instead of saying, well, here's all 6 the disincentives, the approach would be that these -- this 7 would be the incentives for a municipal to become a member of 8 Dig Safe.9 MR. CONNORS: Uh-huh.10 MS. DUMAINE: This is the benefit that you would get.11 MR. CONNORS: Right.12 MS. DUMAINE: You know, and we would prevent a lot of13 damage.14 MR. CONNORS: Oh, absolutely.15 MS. DUMAINE: You know?16 MR. CONNORS: Yeah, I mean, I think they would 17 understand that, and I would certainly put that in the survey.18 MS. DUMAINE: Right. And as a taxpayer, you know, if19 I were on the outside of this and didn't know anything else 20 about it and it was presented to me that way and I understood 21 that, then I would be raising my hand and saying, yes, let's 22 appropriate that.23 MR. CONNORS: I mean, I think municipal officials and24 public works directors --25 MS. DUMAINE: And believe me, I understand the BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 38 1 mountains you're up against with the whole budget issue.2 MR. CONNORS: Oh, I mean, I take my directive from 3 the member municipalities, the legislative policy committee in 4 particular. So I mean, I will voice -- I will come back here 5 and voice what they -- repeat what they have said to me in that6 survey. But I think that what I've said -- what I've said up 7 to this point is probably what I'm going to hear. And I think 8 the incentives is a good idea. I really do. And make it a 9 voluntary type thing, trial period, whatever. I think the one 10 concern some of these -- some members might have is with -- you11 get folks in under these -- you know, these assumptions that 12 it's a voluntary program, it's going to be for a year, and all 13 of a sudden that window closes and now you're in the system, 14 and it's not -- based upon their assessment of that, of Dig 15 Safe, the cost benefit doesn't work for continued membership. 16 So I think that could be a concern, a potential concern.17 MR. FINELLI: They could just drop out.18 MR. CONNORS: Unless that provision was no longer -- 19 yes.20 MR. FINELLI: Right, if the law changes and forces 21 you in, right.22 MR. CONNORS: Exactly.23 MR. FINELLI: That's what it comes down --24 MR. DAVIES: But I don't think anybody's talking 25 about mandatory membership, that you couldn't escape after a BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 39 1 trial period or so.2 MR. CONNORS: So then that wouldn't be -- that 3 wouldn't be a concern.4 MR. DAVIES: Carl?5 MR. BISSON: Carl Bisson, Suburban Propane. Quick 6 question, I just am kind of new to this committee and 7 everything, and a couple questions. I just want to revisit the8 assessment, the $50,000 bucket --9 MR. DAVIES: Uh-huh.10 MR. BISSON: -- just to clear it up, okay? Just to 11 clear it up. Or maybe try to clear it up. Do the 12 municipalities pay into that assessment?13 MR. DAVIES: No.14 MR. BISSON: They do not? Okay. Can we find out 15 exactly what that damage prevention line item in the budget 16 actually covers, how much of it covers the OK-to-Dig and then 17 what else is being funded out of that bucket?18 MR. DAVIDSON: I will, and -- and -- and I -- we've 19 grabbed onto this 50,000, and I'm really wanting folks to 20 understand what this is. This is -- when it's a line item, 21 that's -- it's not a line item. I used that term because 22 people are having a hard time understanding it. It is coming 23 out of our budget. Whatever it costs, if it costs 30,000 to do24 it, 10,000, 5,000, we're paying that amount. So there's not a 25 dedicated amount. There's not an amount in our budget that BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 40 1 says here it is. I can tell you how much we paid last year. 2 Like what Ben said, that 50,000, I would guess -- I'm sure it's3 not only OK-to-Dig because it doesn't cost us that much to 4 operate it on a year. I can find out how much we currently 5 spend towards OK-to-Dig, and I think that will be -- and then 6 possibly, you know, if -- could -- we've been spending it for 7 how many years, we probably could keep going. But I don't want8 folks to leave today thinking there's $50,000 that we can -- 9 that the Commission can spend every year on this because that's10 not -- it's not $50,000 amount that's been attributed to the 11 OK-to-Dig.12 MR. BISSON: Right. It says damage prevention is 13 what the -- is what that budget --14 MR. SANBORN: Absolutely.15 MR. DAVIDSON: Right.16 MR. BISSON: If we can to call it a line item or 17 whatever we want to call it, whether it's a duck, it's $50,000 18 dedicated to damage prevention in the PUC budget, right?19 MR. SANBORN: Yes, and it was presented to the 20 legislative committee --21 MR. DAVIDSON: Right.22 MR. SANBORN: -- on page 74 of the 2011 annual report23 as being Commission damage prevention, $50,000, for the work 24 program of 2012. So that's all I'm going off of is what was 25 given to the legislature. BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 41 1 MR. BISSON: And all I'm asking for is just for our 2 edification is what the $50,000 covers. I mean, it's -- I 3 mean, it's a -- I'm sure it covers a whole host of things that 4 have to do with damage prevention. Maybe it helps defer the 5 cost of an employee or -- I mean, I don't know.6 MR. DAVIDSON: Yeah, I don't either.7 MR. BISSON: I think we just need to know because 8 that number came up and --9 MR. KAPLY: I would imagine it's also -- it involves 10 whatever -- most of the damage prevention program is actually 11 grant funded through PHMSA. We do, though, have incremental 12 costs for vehicles for investigators, and I believe whatever 13 portion of salaries is not paid, we have to match that to a 14 certain degree. So I would imagine you're relatively correct. 15 In a general way, though, I suppose we could get an exact 16 amount, but it covers essentially whatever training costs and 17 salary costs and the cost of supplies. So -- and the one that 18 comes to mind is sort of vehicles because the investigators use19 pool vehicles, and I believe we reimburse another state agency 20 for the use of those vehicles. And then the -- the bulk of the21 funds, though -- obviously, the bulk of the funds to support 22 the program come from the federal government. I mean, we could23 figure out -- outside of that -- and I don't know if that 24 actually includes the amount that's the contractor for the OK 25 -- for the OK-to-Dig contract. BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 42 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Yeah, I'm not sure, either.2 MR. KAPLY: So that's sort of part of the issue is 3 I'm not really clear if that $50,000 is inclusive of the amount.4 MR. BISSON: So I guess that would be good to know. 5 Because if it's assuming that -- or we're incorrectly assuming 6 that -- a large portion of that is going to OK-to-Dig, then we 7 need to just get that off the table and find out where the 8 assessment dollars are going.9 MR. DAVIDSON: Yeah, I can find out pretty -- I think10 pretty straightforward how much we're spending on OK-to-Dig.11 MR. SANBORN: And I think it is useful to note the 12 grant amount and try and figure out what's happening with that 13 because, according to the annual report, during fiscal year 14 2011 the Commission received a damage prevention grant from 15 USDOT Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration in16 the amount of 42,979. In fiscal year 2011, zero was expended 17 leaving an unencumbered balance of 42,979 brought forward to 18 2012. So I guess the question is what was that intended for, 19 you know, why wasn't is spent, and can it be used for something20 like this, and is that part of what you were calculating when 21 you said we have a 50,000 line item but we don't think we're 22 going to collect that amount because we've already booked this 23 43,000.24 MR. DAVIDSON: I think --25 MR. DAVIES: I think you might want to do some BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 43 1 research --2 MR. DAVIDSON: Yeah, I was just going to say I can 3 come up with OK-to-Dig, but I'm not a budget expert, and the 4 state budgeting program is -- is fairly complicated. And so 5 trying to break down and explain where this piece went and 6 where that piece went, I don't know how productive that will 7 be. I can certainly come back and say how much we spent on OK-8 to-Dig.9 MR. BISSON: And I think that was basically the 10 question is how much of that line item is dedicated to OK-to-11 Dig, and if OK-to-Dig isn't working like it should, then why 12 fund it out of that money. Maybe the money could -- that 13 particular amount of money could be used to help defer the cost14 to bring the non-members in.15 MR. DAVIDSON: Sure.16 MR. BISSON: I think that's where we were going with 17 that, right? I mean, that's what I took from it.18 MR. DAVIDSON: Yeah.19 MR. BISSON: So I mean, we're not trying to rob that 20 whole budget from the PUC. Just curious.21 MR. DAVIES: We'll let Derek look into that and get 22 back to us when he has collected some information.23 MR. BAHUN: Tom Bahun, Maine Rural Water Association.24 It's been mentioned, you know, certainly the intent of these 25 meetings is to get to a one-call system, and one of the reasons BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 44 1 stated that supports a one-call system is that the OK-to-Dig 2 has deficiencies. I don't know the history of the OK-to-Dig, 3 how it was started, what was the intent, what were the goals of4 the OK-to-Dig. I surmise that it was to improve, you know, 5 underground protection. But -- but I wonder what -- what those6 specific deficiencies are and why are they deficient. What are7 the goals of OK-to-Dig and they're not being met? I mean, as 8 devil's advocate, if I'm utilizing OK-to-Dig, why is it not 9 working? Does it need more money? Is the money being spent 10 appropriately? That would be -- that would be my question 11 utilizing OK-to-Dig.12 MR. DAVIES: I think we heard a little bit of the 13 answer to that earlier in that there are information that is 14 supposed to come back from the people who are on OK-to-Dig or 15 the groups, that it just doesn't happen and the staff at the 16 Commission doesn't have -- in fact, there isn't staff at the 17 Commission whose job it is to patrol this sort of stuff. So 18 the information on there may be a bit stale, and if people, in 19 fact, go out to call, they get told you also have to call these20 entities and you get the list of the entities and you start 21 making phone calls and you don't get anybody or you get -- 22 somebody said, oh, my husband died three years ago, I don't 23 know who you need to talk to. It creates a system that isn't a24 system. It's sort of a dead end --25 MR. BAHUN: And I understand that, but is there a way BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 45 1 to improve the system, to remove that? That would be my 2 question. I'm not saying that a one-call system isn't, you 3 know, the most important piece here. But as devil's advocate, 4 well, we have a system that was started. Well, why didn't you 5 anticipate that this would occur and aren't there reasons -- 6 specific reasons why this isn't so and can -- why this is and 7 can we fix it with more staff or more money?8 MR. DAVIDSON: Well, I mean, we can certainly improve9 it with more staff and more money, but --10 MR. KAPLY: We can fix anything with more staff and 11 more money.12 MR. BAHUN: But what, specifically, would it take?13 MR. DAVIDSON: Well, I think one thing -- there's a 14 couple -- to improve the OK-to-Dig, you could have somebody who15 routinely called every phone number contact that we have in 16 there to see is this still active because even though -- I'll 17 give you a quick example because I just talked about this the 18 other day. We, on an annual basis, send out a letter to all 19 municipalities who are on the list, or should be on the list, 20 saying is your information still current. We hear back from 21 very few. So we don't have staff to then actually start making22 phone calls to check to see if all of the folks that are still 23 listed on there are still accurate. And we're actually talking24 about, geez, can we try to maybe divvy up some of that and 25 actually try to do that. But that -- that is something that we BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 46 1 would have to do, ask somebody to do that already has a full-2 time job. And so yes, it could be -- you know, the current 3 system could be improved certainly if we dedicated more 4 resources towards it. But some of the things that that's not 5 going to fix is having two systems that you're trying to run 6 and people knowing and being clear that they have to call Dig 7 Safe and OK-to-Dig. That's one thing that wouldn't be 8 addressed by putting more resources towards OK-to-Dig.9 MR. BAHUN: Right, and it's important to define why 10 OK-to-Dig is not working to support that one -- that one-call 11 system and what it will take to make it work, and it might be 12 unreasonable.13 MR. DAVIDSON: Uh-huh.14 MR. BAHUN: But clearly define that. It's still 15 fuzzy in my head, you know, can you have one person dedicated 16 to doing that and then is that reasonable to have one person 17 maintain that system or would it take a staff of five or six, 18 which is unreasonable.19 MR. DAVIES: I think that despite Matt's suggestion 20 that we can fix all problems with enough money, there are some 21 parts of the system that I don't think even more money is going22 to resolve because you have a lot of folks that -- you have a 23 lot of the entities on here who are not required to. They 24 don't have any obligation to respond which is why the Commission25 doesn't get a lot of responses back when they send out their BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 47 1 letters. They don't update their information and you can't 2 make them update their information. So you've got a system at 3 one end that is somewhat amorphous and doesn't necessarily 4 respond. It doesn't have any obligation to respond, and that 5 plus being a duplicate system or a second system just makes it 6 very difficult to make sure that you're covering all your 7 bases. Mark?8 MR. LEVESQUE: Yeah, Mark Levesque from On Target. I9 guess as far as throwing time and money at -- at the OK-to-Dig 10 situation, website, that still doesn't cover two-thirds of the 11 day. It doesn't cover after hours, weekends. And that's where12 a lot of these problems happen. So you can throw as much money13 as you want, but it's only going to cover that 9:00 to 5:00 or 14 7:00 to 5:00 or whatever it is. You're still going to have all15 those after hours and weekends that you got nobody. You're 16 poking a hole in the ground and hoping to God there's nothing 17 there.18 MR. DAVIES: Have we beat this one to death for the 19 moment? Sam?20 MR. MURRAY: Just a couple things. I think you may 21 have already touched on this. The OK-to-Dig system, I'm taking22 it the municipalities do not pay anything to have that 23 information there?24 MR. DAVIDSON: Correct.25 MR. MURRAY: Okay. Where does the money go from BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 48 1 penalties like --2 MR. DAVIDSON: The general fund.3 MR. DAVIES: Yeah.4 MR. MURRAY: And I guess is that something that maybe5 we should try to address? Because these penalties, in my 6 opinion being a utility, if I get fined, it should be coming 7 back towards training and what not out there and to work with 8 the Dig Safe system to keep a one-call system going.9 MR. DAVIDSON: Uh-huh.10 MR. MURRAY: And -- and maybe that's the direction we11 need to look at is what we can do to possibly at least get a 12 portion of that out of the general fund and put it to what this13 whole group is about. I think that's -- and I see it in the 14 small towns when you have your general funds. It's stuff that 15 doesn't get put towards taking care of the streets and the 16 municipalities' budgets. It just goes into the general fund 17 till somebody comes up with a bright idea, hey, we need this 18 now. Not that money doesn't need to go to the general fund, 19 but I think some of this we should try to maybe focus towards 20 putting back towards the whole Dig Safe program and the -- in 21 the PUC's budgets. Maybe they'll never -- eventually there 22 might not be any money to help fund it if everybody's using it 23 and we get away from any damages out there. So you got a down 24 side to that too, but I think there's still -- some of it -- 25 you're still going to have fines. And with a gas company, BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 49 1 we're mandated. We have to be part of Dig Safe and we fall 2 under all these rules. And it's not that I'm saying that it's 3 a reason for these guys to get on it. I guess I've beat that 4 to death.5 But the next part that I wanted to bring up was Bob 6 had made the comment, which is an incentive, Greg, I believe, 7 because I think that was one of the first things that was 8 brought up is the mapping. And he said that they would take 9 care of the initial mapping of everything. All the 10 municipalities would have to do is if they extend a water main 11 or sewer line, just provide that to them and they would take 12 care of that. And as far as like with the OK-to-Dig, that -- 13 that dollar per call, that's also paying them to make all these14 calls to the municipalities to keep everything up to date with 15 phone numbers and what not. They -- they do a lot of calls for16 that dollar. They do a lot of behind-the-scenes work that pays17 for that dollar they're paying in. So if they look at the 18 value they're getting out of that dollar they're paying for a 19 call, that should be an incentive right there. And on the 20 smaller municipalities, like they said, there's some that are 21 two or 300 calls a year. For $300, that's -- you're getting a 22 lot of services out of that because they're going to be making 23 constant calls to make sure their contact information is all up24 to date and this and that because that's part of what they're 25 providing as a fee. And Bob, if I'm speaking out of turn -- BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 50 1 MR. FINELLI: You're not. You're good so far.2 MR. MURRAY: Okay. I figured you'd pipe up if I was 3 getting --4 MR. FINELLI: Oh, believe me.5 MR. MURRAY: -- too far along in volunteering your 6 services. But those are incentives that I think brings back to7 them. So if you do a survey, put some of that stuff in there.8 MR. CONNORS: Oh, absolutely.9 MR. MURRAY: Right.10 MR. CONNORS: I'm not going to try to sway them one 11 way or the other.12 MR. MURRAY: Right. And I know --13 MR. CONNORS: That's not something I do.14 MR. MURRAY: -- you're just bringing back the voice 15 of the group.16 MR. CONNORS: Absolutely right.17 MR. MURRAY: And on a final note, and it got brought 18 up in the best practices team too -- I'm not sure -- you were 19 there, right? Okay. Shaw Brothers was there. But that was 20 one of the things is getting even you guys onto the Dig Safe 21 system which is some incentives and stuff to you guys also. I 22 mean, time savings alone being on that for making all the calls23 and what not is -- is one that they brought up that they 24 thought was a good incentive.25 MR. DAVIES: Bruce? BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 51 1 MR. HUBBARD: You know, we can pussyfoot around this 2 and figure out how we're going to get $50,000 out of Derek and 3 we're going to try to fix the OK-to-Dig system, but I think 4 this group needs to move forward and, number one, pick a 5 tolerance zone and live by it; number two, adopt the best 6 practices and move forward with it, pick up a one-cal system 7 and move forward with it. And when Mark has a utility company 8 that wants to put something in his city, say, okay, you become 9 part of Dig Safe if you're going to put that utility in and 10 make it mandatory. Augusta has adopted that. A couple of 11 lines that we've done for Oxford, you know, they said, okay, in12 order to get your street opening permit, you've got to prove to13 us that Oxford Networks is a member of the Dig Safe system in 14 this city. And adopt it and then we'll move forward. But we 15 can pussyfoot around and try to fix all of this stuff, but we 16 need to pick one or two items, move forward with it, and keep 17 going.18 MR. DAVIES: Let's start with the first one that you 19 mentioned, having a common tolerance zone. We went through 20 this last time around as many of the members will recall, and 21 we weren't successful. What if we went to a 30-inch -- 36-inch22 tolerance zone for everybody --23 MR. MURRAY: We would love it.24 MR. DAVIES: -- as opposed to the 18 and 36 that we 25 were talking about last time around? BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 52 1 MR. MURPHY: Kevin Murphy with R.J. Grondin & Sons. 2 I had a lovely opportunity to help a crew out. There was a 3 little short last Friday, probably 80 degrees out, and we were 4 digging in what was referred to as gorilla gravel. And I'd 5 welcome any of you to come and spend two hours with a hand 6 shovel trying to get a 36 versus an 18 inch tolerance zone 7 established that goes down an undetermined amount of depth. We8 were looking for a gas line that we never found --9 MR. DAVIES: Uh-huh.10 MR. MURPHY: -- and we went down over three feet 11 doing that. And your -- I can pretty much state for 12 contractors everywhere that that would be extremely expensive 13 and difficult. So thanks.14 MR. SANBORN: And that sort of gets to one of the 15 discussions that was had at the subcommittee level of is there 16 a way to be more flexible, is there a way to say that maybe one17 size doesn't fit all, but we need something, we need a 18 standard, we need something that everyone can live with and 19 abide by in order to move forward on this. And that's where we20 started going down the direction of can you have like an 21 agreement as part of your best management practices that it 22 says specific details of on this project the site manager for 23 all of the participants signed off on this is how we're going 24 to do the locate for when we're going to do the hand digging, 25 etc. And so you have everybody able to come up with a BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 53 1 compromise on the spot, but you do have a default in there. 2 You do have a default of whether it's 18 or 36, I don't know, 3 but have a default but have an opportunity to say on this 4 specific project, that doesn't make sense, either it's too 5 small or it's too big. And if everyone agrees to it, then you 6 can move forward with something different. If everyone 7 doesn't, you've got a default standard that everyone's got to 8 live by. And that -- that's sort of where we're -- if we tie 9 everything into the best management practices and really try 10 and get that as the new standard going forward, I think we can 11 set up a system that is going to be workable for everybody, 12 that is going to get away from the concerns that municipalities13 and others have with regard to the sort of way the fining works14 and get back towards a situation where the primary motivation 15 is to protect the safety of the workers and the integrity of 16 the underground facilities in the way that works best for that 17 specific project. And I think it's doable. I think that the 18 subcommittee can get there before we need to have back to the 19 legislature, and I think it's a good point that we need to 20 focus on something and get that something done and that that's 21 going to be the way that we can get to the one-call system to 22 incentivize municipalities to become a part of it so that, 23 after a couple of years, hopefully, the municipalities will 24 say, yeah, I saw a real benefit of this, I want to raise 25 another $500 from my community in order to keep this going. BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 54 1 MR. DAVIES: Any other comments? Any -- I threw out 2 a bunch of things that were identified by folks as 3 disincentives earlier on. Any new ideas of disincentives that 4 we might deal with or new incentives that we haven't raised 5 right now that might be of some interest to non-members? I'm 6 not seeing any -- anything on that. Okay. All right. Then 7 we'll bring this one to an end. There are some issues that I 8 put on the agenda that had been raised by Matt Marks who's here9 with us today that he wanted to -- some questions that he 10 wanted folks to give some thought to. You'll find them on the 11 second page of the agenda. Matt, do you want to come up here 12 and talk a little bit about this? 13 MR. MARKS: Matt Marks, Associated General 14 Contractors. We had actually brought these three questions up 15 in the last session, and we really didn't get to deal with it. 16 I know that I had posed some of the questions of stuff, but we 17 didn't formally ask them. And we have several members that are18 now using vacuum excavation as a process, and the procedures, 19 the Dig Safe rules, don't clearly define vacuum excavation. So20 we wanted to bring it up as a discussion point, and I'm 21 probably more anxious to hear what staff -- I know that you 22 asked staff to look into this and find out what the sort of 23 response is. I have sort of a sense, but it's one of the 24 questions out there that if it's not written, it's always a 25 question for a contractor of how this would be handled. So BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 55 1 we'd like to see things in paper. So just looking for some 2 direction I think.3 MR. DAVIES: And this is a case where technology may 4 be moving faster than the rules that govern it.5 MR. MARKS: Yeah, correct.6 MR. DAVIES: Derek?7 MR. DAVIDSON: Sure. Well, the -- the first question8 is, do the Dig Safe procedures need to be followed for a vacuum9 excavation if no mechanical excavation is planned. No, and 10 vacuum excavation is specifically exempted from -- in the 11 statute as -- from the mechanical digging definition. Now, the12 next two questions talk about -- well, I'll just -- I'll just 13 read them and then we can discuss them. Does vacuum or hydro 14 excavation meet the standards for moving material inside the 15 hand digger tolerance zone? Yes, for vacuum. Hydro and air 16 compressed, which is the third one, are not addressed in the 17 statute.18 MR. MARKS: Okay.19 MR. DAVIDSON: So our thoughts are, preliminarily, is20 that philosophically we probably wouldn't have a problem with 21 including those methods along with vacuum, but I think Dick hit22 the nail on the head saying that the technology may be moving 23 ahead of the -- the regulation because neither air, compressed 24 air, nor hydro are addressed or specifically exempted by the 25 statute. BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 56 1 MR. MARKS: And I -- I think we -- you know, as far 2 as moving forward, you know, what process we'd have to take to 3 include new technologies, not just this, but I think moving 4 forward, there's going to be a lot more. Things are changing 5 pretty quickly in our field, and I think having the ability to 6 add those as they come along is really important to that 7 process to be clear for excavators. So that's all I have.8 MR. DAVIES: Okay. And let's move on then. 9 Assignments for the next meeting, I thought today's discussion 10 was good. I'd like folks to go back and revisit the list of 11 disincentives that had been developed earlier and send me an 12 email, send the whole group an email if you want, sort of 13 putting them in some sort of priority order, the ones you think14 are the most important to be dealt with down to the ones that 15 maybe are less important so that we get a sense from the whole 16 organization which are the ones that are perceived as being the17 ones that are most significant. That way we can concentrate 18 our efforts in future meetings on the ones that seem to have 19 the broadest sense of being important issues. And if you want 20 to do just like the first three or four as really important and21 we'll just assume that any others you don't mention are of 22 lesser importance, that would probably simplify the process for23 doing that. And if you would get that back to me within the 24 next week or so, that would be great.25 MR. HUBBARD: So is it my understanding that if we BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 57 1 picked a tolerance zone as a majority here, that we would focus2 all our efforts into that one particular item for that meeting?3 MR. DAVIES: I'm not sure it would be the only item 4 that we'd deal with, but we'd focus our attention on the ones 5 that seem to have the greatest commentary from members as being6 important issues to deal with. And if we need a whole meeting 7 to deal with it, we can do that. If we can do it in, you know,8 an hour or so, that's fine. But we'll try to focus our efforts9 on those that seem to be the ones that have the highest 10 priority, the first three or four or five or so. Greg?11 MR. CONNORS: Thanks, Dick. To follow up on Bruce's 12 question, so we're going to look at all of these disincentives,13 it's just that we're going to spend more time on the ones that 14 have the higher priority?15 MR. DAVIES: That's right, exactly.16 MR. CONNORS: Okay.17 MR. DAVIDSON: And Dick?18 MR. DAVIES: Yes.19 MR. DAVIDSON: I don't know if this is the right time20 to mention this, but any recommended rules that come out of the21 -- out of this subgroup or work group, it's going to be major 22 substantive which has to go to the legislature.23 MR. DAVIES: Uh-huh.24 MR. DAVIDSON: We are really bumping up against a 25 deadline for us to be able to conduct the rulemaking -- BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 58 1 MR. DAVIES: Okay.2 MR. DAVIDSON: -- and have it done.3 MR. DAVIES: Yeah.4 MR. DAVIDSON: You know, I mean, if we were -- we 5 should be starting, technically, right now. So I think if 6 realistically there's a rule change that this group wants to be7 considered this session, it -- we'd better get going pretty 8 quickly on that.9 MR. DAVIES: Yeah.10 MR. SANBORN: And I think that raises a good issue of11 really taking a look at what needs to change by rule and what 12 may need to change by statute.13 MR. DAVIES: Yeah.14 MR. SANBORN: That -- I think there are a couple 15 things that might have to -- that we're talking about that 16 would really have to be a statutory change --17 MR. DAVIES: Yeah.18 MR. SANBORN: -- as opposed to a rule change.19 MR. DAVIES: But in line with Derek's request, why 20 don't we focus on -- the next meeting on things that might 21 require rule changes as opposed to statutory changes, and we'll22 sort of look at the disincentives or any other things that 23 people think are appropriate to be made. And don't -- we could24 certainly start considering rule recommendations that don't 25 necessarily apply to disincentives but to other things, but BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 59 1 let's focus on things that relate to rules for the next 2 meeting. And I've been working with Derek to identify some 3 dates when we can have additional meetings. And we're going to4 try to start scheduling these perhaps every two to three weeks 5 apart rather than every month or so so that we can get more 6 work done. Now that we've sort of gone through all of the 7 issues at least once, we can now start focusing in and we can 8 begin thinking in terms of what kind of recommendations 9 individual members would like to put forward. And so give some10 thought to the next meeting that we set up which hopefully will11 be some time before the end of September, certainly by the 12 first week in October, on any recommendations that you might 13 want to make that relate to rules as opposed to statutory 14 changes. And we'll try and get things to the Commission fast 15 enough so that they can initiate the rulemaking proceeding that16 they have to go through and still have it -- time to do it 17 before the legislature convenes at the end of the year. Any 18 questions? Any other issues people want to raise, things you 19 want to put on the next agenda? Okay. Greg?20 MR. CONNORS: Just from MMA's perspective or 21 viewpoint, the first week of October might be tough for us with22 regards to a meeting. Not that you necessarily want us at the 23 table, but we've got our annual convention that week. The 24 other thing is do you want me to move forward with some sort of25 survey -- BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 60 1 MR. DAVIES: Yeah, if you --2 MR. CONNORS: -- and try to get it back -- try to get3 results -- or provide information with regards to the input 4 that I get at the next meeting?5 MR. DAVIES: Yeah.6 MR. CONNORS: I mean, the longer time -- the more 7 time I have, probably the better response I'll get.8 MR. DAVIES: Yeah. If you can draft something up and9 maybe share it with me just to take a look at it and we can --10 MR. CONNORS: Yeah, I can do that.11 MR. DAVIES: -- give you some advice on some of that 12 stuff.13 MR. CONNORS: Sure.14 MR. DAVIES: And then we can move forward on that. I15 think it's a good idea.16 MR. CONNORS: Fair enough.17 MR. DAVIES: Okay. All right. I'm not seeing 18 anybody waving their arms around for anything. Why don't we 19 call this meeting done? Thanks very much. We'll get some 20 dates out to you in the next few days, probably by the first of21 the week, of possible meeting dates. And we'll try and 22 schedule two meetings at the same time so that we reduce the 23 number of times we have to go through this, and people can plan24 for this further in advance on when meetings might take place. 25 Kathleen? BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 61 1 MS. DUMAINE: Just a point of awareness, the Dig Safe2 regulators meeting is October 2nd.3 MR. DAVIES: Okay.4 MS. DUMAINE: So the 1st and the 2nd would not be --5 MR. DAVIES: We will try to stay clear of those sort 6 of things. Is that meeting here in -- somewhere in New England7 I assume. Is it going to be at Bob's shop or --8 MR. FINELLI: No, we're going to be up -- excuse me, 9 we're up here in Maine. We're going to be at the Cliff House.10 MR. DAVIES: Oh, really?11 MR. FINELLI: Yes.12 MR. DAVIES: Okay.13 MR. FINELLI: If you want to attend --14 MR. DAVIES: Yeah, if you'd send me some information,15 I may very well want to come down and sit in on that.16 MR. FINELLI: Excellent. And I mean, invitations 17 have gone out to people to attend so that's a meeting that's 18 available.19 MR. DAVIES: Okay.20 MR. FINELLI: If people are interested, they can just21 contact me at the call center. Dial 811 or dial 888-Dig-Safe 22 and ask for me.23 MR. DAVIES: Okay.24 MR. FINELLI: And I'll get you to Amy Warden who'll 25 handle the -- give you the details. But I'll take care of you. BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 62 1 I'll send you an email, Dick.2 MR. DAVIES: Great. Thank you, Bob. Travel safely.3 CONFERENCE ADJOURNED (September 13, 2012, 11:30 a.m.)45678910111213141516171819202122232425 BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505 63 1 C E R T I F I C A T E2 I hereby certify that this is a true and accurate transcript of3 the proceedings which have been electronically recorded in this4 matter on the aforementioned hearing date.56 D. Noelle Forrest, Transcriber78910111213141516171819202122232425 BROWN & MEYERS 1-800-785-7505

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