Archived Information: Equity and Excellence Commission: Transcript of May 23 Commission

111 2 Archived Information 3 4 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION 5 6 + + + + + 7 8 EQUITY AND EXCELLENCE COMMISSION 9 10 + + + + + 11 12 MEETING 13 OPEN SESSION 14 15 + + + + + 16 17 MONDAY 18 MAY 23, 2011 19 20 + + + + + 21 22 23 The Commission met in the 1st Floor 24 Auditorium of the Lyndon Baines Johnson 25 Department of Education Building, 400 Maryland 26 Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 12:00 p.m., 27 Christopher Edley and Reed Hastings, Co- 28 Chairs, presiding. 29 30 31 PRESENT: 32 33 CHRISTOPHER EDLEY, Co-Chair 34 REED HASTINGS, Co-Chair 35 CYNTHIA BROWN, Member 36 MIKE CASSERLY, Member 37 MARIANO-FLORENTINO CUELLAR, Member (via phone) 38 LINDA DARLING-HAMMOND, Member 39 SANDRA DUNGEE GLENN, Member 40 KAREN HAWLEY MILES, Member 41 KATI HAYCOCK, Member 42 JOHN KING, Member2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 121 RALPH MARTIRE, Member 2 MARC MORIAL, Member 3 MICHAEL REBELL, Member 4 AHNIWAKE ROSE, Member 5 JESSE RUIZ, Member 6 JIM RYAN, Member 7 THOMAS SAENZ, Member 8 DAVID SCIARRA, Member 9 ROBERT TERANISHI, Member 10 JACQUELYN THOMPSON, Member 11 JOSE TORRES, Member 12 DENNIS VAN ROEKEL, Member 13 RANDI WEINGARTEN, Member 14 DORIS WILLIAMS, Member (via phone) 15 16 17 ALSO PRESENT: 18 19 RUSSLYNN ALI, Assistant Secretary, Office for 20 Civil Rights, U.S. Department of 21 Education 22 CARMEL MARTIN, Assistant Secretary, Office of 23 Policy, U.S. Department of Education 24 SUZANNE IMMERMAN, Special Assistant, Director 25 of Philanthropic Engagement, U.S. 26 Department of Education 27 ROBERTO RODRIGUEZ, Special Assistant to the 28 President, Domestic Policy Council, 29 White House 30 CHARLIE ROSE, General Counsel, U.S. Department 31 of Education 32 MICHAEL DANNENBERG, Delegate for 33 Undersecretary Martha Kanter, U.S. 34 Department of Education 35 JASON SNYDER, Delegate for Deputy Secretary 36 Tony Miller, U.S. Department of 37 Education 38 RICARDO SOTO, Delegate for Assistant Secretary 39 Russlynn Ali, U.S. Department of 40 Education 41 EMMA VADEHRA, Delegate for Assistant Secretary 42 Carmel Martin, U.S. Department of 43 Education 44 STEPHEN CHEN, Staff Director2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 131 KIMBERLY WATKINS, Staff 22 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 141 A G E N D A 2 3 4 5 Open Session - Call To Order...... 4 6 7 Public Outreach...... 5 8 9 Funding and Staffing for Commission 10 Work...... 23 11 12 School Finance Issues...... 25 13 14 15 162 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 151 P R O C E E D I N G S2 12:10 p.m.3 Call to Order 4 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Okay, so if the --5 so Reed, you want to start with the public6 outreach and stuff? So Stephen, do you want7 -- we'll also have Stephen, I guess, to say a8 little bit about how things have gone thus far9 what, if anything else, is on the horizon.10 MR. CHEN: So just as a little bit11 of housekeeping as we go through this, I'll12 direct you to kind of what's in the packets in13 front of you. The first thing on there is the14 agenda. The second thing in the packet is the15 summary of the minutes from the last minute,16 which we'll approve at some point during this17 meeting.18 The second or the third item in19 there is the Public Outreach report, which20 I'll go over in a second. And then the last21 thing is the collection of the Subcommittee22 reports to date. So most of you, you should2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 161 have received the Subcommittee reports via2 email in the last couple of days, but again3 hard copies, just in case you don't have them.4 Public Outreach 5 MR. CHEN: For the Public Outreach,6 I just wanted to give you guys an update. We7 have been doing the town hall meetings to8 reach out to the public, and to engage in a9 public discourse on the issues that are before10 the Commission.11 We've completed three town halls so12 far. The first was in San Jose. The second13 was in Philadelphia, and the third was in14 Kansas City.15 As you'll see in the report, and16 I'm just going to give you highlights, since17 you guys can actually read the report later,18 we've reached out to about 200 people total19 over the course of these town hall meetings.20 The first in San Jose was certainly the21 largest, with about 125, 130 people.22 To kind of go through some of the2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 171 themes that came out during those sessions, in2 San Jose, we heard a lot about a lot of ideas3 about leveraging federal funding to promote4 change, and there were certainly ideas that we5 have embraced through Race to the Top and6 we'll continue to do so. 7 There were some themes about8 elevating the teaching profession, and also9 just sort of greater school autonomy and10 having a little bit more local control over11 budgets specifically.12 In Philadelphia, we heard from a13 lot of students actually, who talked about14 non-violence in schools and how the lack of15 resources was affecting the schools, sort of16 climate issues, and how much it affected their17 ability to receive a series of wraparound18 services like counseling and so forth.19 The other big thing that came out20 of Philadelphia was to looking at the specific21 needs of particular populations, including22 English language learners, poor students and2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 181 such. 2 In Kansas City, the kind of main3 things that came out of there were wanting a4 little bit more community engagement and5 parent outreach, certainly themes that we are6 committed to, and sort of the reason why we're7 doing these town halls. But they asked us to8 be mindful of that as we move forward.9 They also talked about competitive10 grants and sort of how we want to use those in11 the future.12 ASST. SEC. ALI: And if I could13 also yield to Linda and David, who were at the14 San Jose town hall, and David, you were at15 Philadelphia, if you wanted to add about the16 themes or what you heard, what stood out the17 most for you.18 MEMBER DARLING-HAMMOND: The19 California context is one of the reports that20 was presented there was called Freefall, which21 describes the budget situation in California.22 So that was the context for the2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 191 recommendations there that came forward from2 folks, and I think there were several themes.3 One was, hit upon the reality that4 we talked about in our first meeting, of5 interstate inequity, because California is one6 of the lowest-spending states as kind of a7 proportion of its wealth, and with cost of8 living differentials.9 So I think the plight of high needs10 school districts was well-represented in the11 comments that were made. But the interstate12 inequities were also talked about at some13 length, because there's quite a big spread in14 funding differentials between rich and poor15 districts, and there were actually two16 teachers there, one who spoke from the vantage17 point of what it's like to teach in South18 Central LA, and another who spoke about what19 it's like to teach in Palo Alto, what the20 differences are, the resources available. So21 it was very vivid testimony on those things.22 The state litigation around school2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1101 funding was discussed in another piece of2 testimony, with some recommendations. I'm3 thinking now of John Affeldt's testimony from4 Public Advocates, for what the federal role5 could be, to both leverage more interstate and6 intrastate attention to equity inadequacy.7 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Could you8 elaborate a little more on John's?9 MEMBER DARLING-HAMMOND: Yes, and I10 think probably we have that testimony so it11 could be shared with people. But it had to do12 with really a conceptualization and Russlynn,13 you may want to chime in here, a more robust14 conception of maintenance of effort was kind15 of one of the things that was talked about and16 was pretty interesting, because if you think17 about various levers that the federal18 government could use.19 Another would have to do with20 formula funding for ESEA, which tends to21 benefit states that spend more and are22 wealthier.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1111 Another piece of it had to do with2 leverage from the state planning process that3 goes on in ESEA for driving state plans around4 achievement investments, but how that could be5 used to also call for resource standards or6 indicators, and could be used to leverage more7 state activity, and an expectation that8 schools that are declared underperforming or9 failing would actually have to meet some10 resource standards, that there would have to11 be some measure of reasonable resource12 standards that would be met by the state.13 David Sciarra was there, so I don't14 know if you can remember things that I'm15 forgetting, and Russlynn, you may want to add16 as well.17 MEMBER SCIARRA: I think that what18 John was talking about was in general, trying19 to set some metrics and some parameters for20 states, in terms of both maintenance of effort21 and incentivizing states to do a better job in22 their finance systems, to ensure more adequate2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1121 and equitable funding across districts and2 states, and his testimony and statements talk3 a little bit more in detail about that.4 In addition to what Stephen and5 Linda said, the California situation struck me6 as very dire, particularly because there's a7 lot of description about how the funding8 system has really sunk in recent years, and9 this latest, these recent rounds of budget10 cuts, we heard a lot of testimony about the11 impact of the budget cuts, particularly on12 high needs districts.13 I thought the -- I would recommend14 to people reading the bookend testimony of the15 two teachers, one in LAUSD and the fellow from16 Palo Alto. One thing I want to mention about17 Palo Alto too was, that struck me, was how18 much money they raised privately, off the19 formula, to supplement what is already a20 wealthy, a fairly wealthy, well-resourced21 school system. They're raising a lot of money22 basically off formula.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1131 So that was what I came away with2 with California. I can mention a bit about3 Pennsylvania, unless you --4 MEMBER DARLING-HAMMOND: I just5 want to add a little bit onto that. There are6 now schools in places like Palo Alto, which is7 a wealthy district, where the expectation that8 parents will donate $5,000 a child for the9 course of the year is stated when you go10 through the, you know, back to school, and11 they're pretty much doing that.12 Just around that time, Beverly13 Hills set a target to raise a million dollars14 in one week. I think they met that target,15 whereas in places like LAUSD and Oakland and16 other places, which this is a state that17 spends way, way below the average, and these18 are districts that spend below the state19 average with high need kids.20 So these are places where, you21 know, art and music and PE and libraries and22 librarians and nurses went a long time ago.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1141 Those were cut and gone from these schools a2 long time ago, and class sizes are 40 or 50,3 in some cases, at the high school level,4 etcetera, and where there aren't enough desks5 for kids to sit in, not enough textbooks for6 them to have a textbook that they could take7 home.8 So the east coast-west coast thing9 also kind of, you know, the differentials10 across the country, and then the differentials11 within the state were very vividly portrayed,12 with this added piece of the fact that13 wealthier parents now can donate to their14 public schools, to make them more reasonably15 funded.16 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: But, I mean,17 that's not a problem, is it, because I can18 take my Section 8 housing voucher and move to19 Beverly Hills, right? Yes, okay.20 MEMBER DARLING-HAMMOND: Sure you21 will. 22 MEMBER SCIARRA: Pennsylvania.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1151 Pennsylvania was actually a very -- I think2 Congressman Fattah will be here and talk about3 it. The situation in Pennsylvania now is4 extremely serious, because what we heard,5 Pennsylvania has had a real problem with6 school funding for a long, long time, but has7 managed over the last six or eight years, with8 a lot of effort, to actually put a bit of a9 school funding formula in, and then over a10 couple of years start to put more money in,11 targeted to high needs rural and urban12 districts across the state.13 They're now faced with essentially14 a budget that would wipe out all of the gains15 that they've made in four or five years,16 incremental gains, in one fell swoop. Very17 substantial budget cuts. They're looking at18 doing away with full day kindergarten, going19 back to half day or even eliminating20 kindergarten.21 There's a whole litany of pre-K22 money that had been put in. So a whole, the2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1161 whole effort that had been made in2 Pennsylvania, to get the legislature and the3 executive to come up with a better financing4 system, and to actually incrementally improve5 the distribution of resources to higher needs6 districts in the state, was really being7 undone right now in Harrisburg, and it looks8 like that's going to happen.9 So that again to me brought up the10 issue of the federal role, and what the11 federal government needs to do, particularly12 in light of states that are now -- that13 weren't doing very well to begin with, but are14 now also scaling back their commitment, while15 at the same time, the federal government is16 putting money into the states. 17 So Pennsylvania's situation, I18 thought, was you know, a difficult one, and19 one that was disheartening, to put it to20 least, because I know personally all the21 effort that went in over many years to try to22 get it -- to get more resources targeted in2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1171 high needs districts, to programs that are2 important, and now to see that being undone3 is, as I said, disheartening.4 ASST. SEC. ALI: I'll just add that5 I thought certainly across the board we saw6 this sobering reality of these very different7 budget times. I think folks have dealt with8 crises before, and they're used to that. This9 recent history has taken it to a whole other10 level for them, and they are calling for help11 on what to do, given the reality, right.12 So as I heard this, I often thought13 about our own tension, because we have to do14 something now, given the reality, with no new15 money coming down the pike, while losing our16 eye on the prize of ensuring that the country17 works to not reduce the pot so much that it's18 far too small to begin with.19 So that kind of short-term and20 long-term vision on how to respond. I was21 also reminded of the no matter what, poor kids22 and kids of color, even when they have2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1181 programs earmarked for them, like categoricals2 in California, those funds get cut the most in3 these times.4 So how do we ensure that what we5 call for is preserved no matter what, because6 if something like a categorical, unintended,7 supposed to stay preserved, but because it's8 the only pot that's somewhat discretionary and9 a statutory structure that constrains hands,10 it's the pot that gets attacked. How do we11 ensure that that doesn't happen, moving12 forward?13 The parent contribution piece was14 also something that came up several times,15 whether overtly or just as people were telling16 their stories. That is also something that I17 think we need to wrestle with as a Commission18 that came up last time when we met.19 I will tell you in, in our20 investigations, in our comparability21 investigations within the Office for Civil22 Rights, this is coming up all the time, and2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1191 indeed is a tension. How can you tell people2 that they cannot or should not to their3 schools? Nobody would argue that you should.4 That said, what is the role, both5 in knowing where these dollars are, because6 but for deep level investigations or the kinds7 of anecdotal testimonies we're hearing, I'm8 not sure we would know.9 So a kind of spirit of transparency10 that tells us as a country how far those local11 contributions are contributing to the divide,12 and not just -- it's also foundations,13 etcetera. It's not just parent contributions.14 Then the folks are very hungry to15 do something now, and how we seize upon that16 sense of urgency, but also given the17 parameters of not just the budget constraints,18 but also the timing of where we are, given the19 concurrent resolution and this20 administration's charge, and Carmel, our21 Assistant Secretary for OPEPD and Budget will22 know this more than anybody. 2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1201 How do we respond with a sense of2 urgency, but also meet the constraints that we3 have now? For example, this idea of4 competitive and influencing Race to the Top5 came up a few times. Now that was also before6 we had final decisions on the budget. Now7 that those things have happened, how do we8 respond but keep our eye on the very near9 future moving forward, when we have new10 opportunities?11 The maintenance of effort piece.12 Linda, I don't want us to loose track of that.13 That came up quite a bit, and it seems like14 potentially a good lever.15 So all that to say that while we16 certainly heard big blue sky on vision, we17 also heard a very, very sobering reality. Our18 charge, I think, is to ensure that we think19 about all of the levers that we have within20 our disposal, to try and move this agenda and21 not just one.22 I was a little bit concerned by the2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1211 focus, by both the public testimony and those2 that came to present, on Title I and ESEA,3 both because we also heard about what didn't4 work. While we heard very strong proposals5 from people like John Affeldt, and things like6 the comparability, closing the comparability7 loophole with Cindy Brown, you know more than8 anyone and that's certainly part of the9 Secretary's blueprint for reauthorization, we10 also heard from folks like John Rockler, that11 reminded us of the history, when we incented,12 tried to incent in Title I with preconditions,13 movement in this regard, that didn't yield the14 kind of results that we wanted.15 So it was a nice balance, I think,16 a historical balance on preconditions, what17 they can do and what they can't do, and it was18 a reminder to me that focusing so much on19 ESEA, not that it's not hugely important, but20 that we also have a real responsibility to21 think through other levers that haven't been22 tried before.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1221 MR. CHEN: So we, a couple of2 things just to wrap up. The reports that you3 have here are mostly a summary of the public4 comment. As Linda mentioned, we had received5 testimony from several speakers at each of6 these sites, and we'll have all of that7 testimony up on our website for you all to8 access.9 Looking ahead, we've got our last10 town hall scheduled for June 8th in Dallas,11 and then we are doing a series of community12 conversations through the month of June.13 We'll be in Boston, we'll be in the14 Mississippi Delta.15 We're planning on being up in16 Milwaukee, and we've got another location or17 two to be determined. So we'll keep you18 posted through our website.19 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Let me make one20 more comment here. I think what I propose we21 do is create a, sort of a Google document or a22 list or something, so that every member of the2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1231 Commission can suggest people or groups to2 whom we could write and solicit views, either3 on general or on particular questions that you4 have.5 Because I think that in addition to6 the town hall meetings, and in addition to7 whatever just comes in over the transom from8 interested folks, if there are other experts9 or leaders, NGOs, that you believe we ought to10 hear from, Stephen will organize a way so that11 everybody can do that. 12 And when you suggest somebody to13 whom we should write, if you want to be14 particular about the subject area you'd like15 to hear from them on, teaching or finance or16 you get the idea, then that would be helpful,17 I'm sure, to them when we send the letter,18 okay. So Stephen will give folks more detail19 about how to do that, when it's worked out.20 Should we do funding? Want to say21 a little something about funding or --22 (Off mic comment.)2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1241 Funding and Staffing for Commission Work 2 MR. CHEN: So as we mentioned3 before, we are starting fund-raising efforts4 in order to bring in some more resources,5 principally so we can bring in some more6 staffing. We wanted to bring in folks to help7 us do some of this research in pulling8 together some of the information that Chris9 was talking about, but also to have a10 professional writer on board to help us11 actually flesh out the ideas that we've been12 getting to.13 So we just wanted to let you know14 that we are moving in that direction. Funds15 are starting to come in. We have some time16 actually set aside in our closed session to17 talk in greater detail, but overall, we just18 sort of wanted everyone to know that that's19 kind of some of the steps that we're moving20 towards. 21 ASST. SEC. ALI: Let me also add,22 sorry. Let me also add that moving forward,2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1251 to continue the kind of input we're hearing2 from the public, both through the community3 conversations, but also we will have4 individuals come to testify at the next5 Commission meeting as well, and would love6 your ideas for ways to get the other kinds of7 input that we need to hear.8 Certainly, we have invited the9 public to send us materials to come and speak10 during the open sessions at the Commission11 meetings. But we also ought to continue to12 think about ways to make sure that you all13 have the information that you need.14 Stephen will continue to send you15 research, and we will continue to help16 summarize some of that. But please, moving17 forward, make sure that both as you're hearing18 things out in the field and if you're hungry19 for information, you let us know.20 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Also, I think as21 we talk about the content of the report and we22 come to particular sections, if you have in2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1261 your mind an idea of somebody who could tell2 us about an example that would be useful to3 put in a box or to put in an appendix, or you4 know about a charter school or you know about5 a partnership somewhere, you know about a6 professional development program of some sort,7 or you know, that would be really helpful.8 Because I think to punch up the9 report, the more examples we can pull in that10 will give it some life and also give people a11 sense that there's real possibilities,12 existence proofs, if you will, for some of the13 things we're going to talk about, that would14 be, as we say in my neighborhood, hecka cool.15 So any other questions or comments16 about the public outreach? 17 (No response.)18 School Finance Issues 19 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Ready to move to a20 general discussion about finance? Stephen,21 did you want a couple of people, that they be22 tapped to say something? 2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1271 MR. CHEN: You can start it out.2 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Okay, good. I3 mean just to understand, what we wanted to do4 is spend a chunk of time particularly drawing5 upon some of the expertise among members of6 the Commission, to talk in more detail about7 the issues surrounding school finance,8 federal, state and local, and to try to start9 developing more of the themes that we want to10 speak to.11 Obviously, here is also a place12 where the folks who are working on Section 313 will have a lot to contribute. But --14 CO-CHAIR HASTINGS: One of the15 topics that I wrestle with and would love to16 get some insight from all of you on are the17 macropolitics around sustainable funding18 streams.19 In particular, I'm influenced20 because 15 years ago, I spent a bunch of time21 with Jack Coons in the Berkeley Law22 Department, who had fought the seminal equity2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1281 battle in California about 40 years ago now,2 and his view of it was, by doing essentially3 it was a mandatory property tax-sharing, money4 all flows through the state system, that that5 had been substantially responsible for the6 California anti-tax revolt, Prop 13, Gann7 limit, other things, and that equity focus8 reduced the general voters' willingness to tax9 themselves so substantially, that California10 had fallen from one of the highest-funded11 systems to middle of the pack to lowest.12 It's still today the legacy of13 that, despite the Palo Alto example, which is14 true. But in California there's three or four15 percent of the kids in these so-called basic16 aid districts.17 If you put them to the side, the18 three or four percent of the kids, I believe19 California is the most equitable state in the20 nation, in terms of inter-district funding,21 and Hawaii might be a special case because of22 its single district stuff.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1291 But putting that to the side,2 California does not have the classic Savage in3 quality property tax disparity, and yet it has4 all the other problems that every state does,5 in terms of huge achievement gaps.6 So it worries me that equity in7 funding, or even compensatory, like weighted8 student formula, will in fact either backfire9 with voters in other states that do that, or10 in general fundamentally not solve the issue,11 which may not be around funding, but may be12 around delivery and, you know, a lot of other13 factors.14 I know many of you have thought15 about this macrowrestle, so I'd love to get16 your view on that.17 MEMBER REBELL: Okay, thank you.18 You're quite right, Reed, that California has19 been an incredible disappointment20 historically, from the viewpoint of those who21 have been following fiscal equity litigations22 in particular, because Serrano was the2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1301 granddaddy of the fiscal equity cases, that2 since that time have taken place in 44 other3 states. 4 It is quite sobering to have to5 point to the first example, where we got this6 rousing retort to the U.S. Supreme Court, that7 if you're not going to deal with equity issues8 and funding from the federal level, the states9 will take it on. 10 California told the U.S. Supreme11 Court that we're going to interpret our equal12 protection clause to be strong, pro-children13 and all, and this is the result many years14 later.15 But if I may, what I would like to16 stick in there, I think what we've learned in17 some of the other states, and I know, John18 Affeldt, you mentioned in many other of the19 attorneys in California now, are trying to20 push this through the California courts,21 California never had an inadequacy case.22 That's what we've had as the predominant2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1311 movement around the country since 1989. 2 We've had it in New York and many3 other states, and what adequacy does obviously4 is say yes, we need fairness, but we also need5 to pay attention to the base, to what is the6 core concept of a sound basic education, a7 thorough and efficient education, whatever the8 concept is.9 So far, the California Supreme10 Court has refused to do that. They have11 language in the second Serrano decision, that12 specifically says we have not said anything13 about adequacy, and our decree is equity. We14 don't care how low the funding goes. They15 accepted this. They said as long as it's16 equitable, even if it's inadequate it's okay.17 Well that's just not acceptable,18 and I think this is the reason why I and a19 number of others have been pushing this20 Commission, that the adequacy battle is not21 over, and I don't know that we can -- 22 Yes, I'm all for more efficient2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1321 ways of using money, especially today, cost-2 effectiveness, and I'd like to speak with that3 and I've been doing some work with Karen in4 Syracuse, that I think we can have some good5 examples of that.6 But we can't lose sight of the fact7 that whether your funding is substantially8 local in orientation or state-wide in9 orientation, we have to combine the equity10 principle with some base concept of what all11 kids need for a quality education.12 So it's not that equity leads to13 lack of funding, and therefore, we really have14 to ring our hands. It's that equity calls for15 adequacy as a compliment and the two have to16 go together. 17 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Can I suggest that18 if we don't catch your hand or if you want to19 speak, just put your tent card up like that?20 Okay. 21 MEMBER DARLING-HAMMOND: I think22 the point is well-taken that, you know, an2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1331 equity focus alone is a challenge. There's2 also the question about how money comes to3 districts. So in California now, the part4 that's equalized is this foundation piece, and5 everybody gets around, somewhere around $6,0006 a pupil in the foundation piece.7 If you take off the top five8 percent of districts, though, the ones that9 you were talking about, the range is from10 6,000 to $17,000. There's still a big range,11 and that has come about with parcel taxes from12 different communities that can afford them on13 top of that base; categorical aid that the14 legislature has added.15 Quite often, interestingly taken16 advantage of by the wealthier districts,17 because if you are getting money to support18 half a counselor, you have to have enough19 money in your, you know, from the categorical,20 you have to have enough money in your budget21 to support the other half or you can't use22 that categorical.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1341 But it ends up causing districts2 also to spend money unwisely, because you3 can't then put that money into the things you4 might most need to put it into, like5 reasonable teacher's salaries so you could6 recruit and retain teachers or working7 conditions. It goes into all these little 5008 pots of money.9 So I think it's just important for10 us to keep on the table, both the question11 about adequacy and equity, and also the ways12 in which revenues flow to districts, and13 whether those allow thoughtful spending, or14 whether they force people to get engaged in15 what ends up often being wasteful spending or16 inefficient spending or ineffective spending17 around the goal of raising student achievement18 and ensuring that the district can operate19 well.20 MEMBER MORIAL: First of all, thank21 you. I'm sorry I missed the first meeting. I22 just wanted to, in respond to Reed, really2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1351 suggest that this Commission, because it's2 been convened, has a chance at this point in3 time to speak very forcefully to this issue.4 I think that the experiences of5 California many generations ago should be6 instructive. But we should not be unmindful7 of where we sit, coming out of a great8 recession, with a greater awareness today9 about the threat that the achievement gap10 places on future American economic11 competitiveness.12 The changing demographics of the13 country, the global landscape, where other14 nations have emphasized skills training and15 education and are rising, this is a time of16 very important opportunity for us. I think to17 speak to both adequacy and to equity, and not18 get to be mindful of politics, but not bogged19 down in it.20 Because politicians have to be21 pushed, and they've got to be educated and22 they've got to be informed. I think we need2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1361 to be mindful of the political landscape, but2 not get caught in an election cycle mentality,3 and not be so bogged down in the here and now4 that we can't state with some moral force5 what, on this issue, is sort of a blueprint6 for the nation in the 21st century.7 This is a very different time.8 There's also, I think, a greater broad9 interest in education reform in the nation10 today than there was 15 or 20. There's always11 been those, you know, people who have been12 passionate about it, but there's a greater13 broad interest, I think, in what this might14 look like.15 So I think the adequacy and the16 equity questions ought to be responded to.17 Secondly, I think financing, the financing18 systems are critical to equity and adequacy.19 But I also think that there are public20 policies, like early childhood education, that21 help achieve equitable outcomes, and that22 money is important.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1371 You know, I'm in discussions where2 people say "money isn't important," and then3 you're in discussions where people say "money4 is everything." Well, money is important, but5 money isn't everything. I really feel we have6 an opportunity to speak to this, and be7 instructed by the past, but recognize that8 we're in a different time.9 The best role of a commission, a10 governmental commission, an advisory11 commission, is to speak to the long-term,12 because the day-to-day political process of13 colleagues who serve in the government and in14 the political branch, restricts sometimes15 their ability to look far ahead. It's just a16 reality check.17 We're not encumbered by that.18 We're not -- we have to be mindful of it and19 thoughtful of it. But I do think we have a20 very, very important opportunity here, which I21 hope we write not only a good report, but we22 think about practical short-term2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1381 recommendations, long-term recommendations, an2 also how once this report is confected, we can3 really use it as a document that's going to4 influence public policy and public thinking.5 So I think it's a moment in time6 that we shouldn't and can't miss.7 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Marc, could you8 say -- two things. I assume when you say that9 money is important but it's not the only thing10 that's important, that you'd like the report11 to be framed that way, to reflect that? Okay.12 But as a former elected official, we've got a13 couple of electeds or former electeds on the14 Commission.15 Could you speak to the backlash16 issue that Reed spoke about, and the17 possibility that an emphasis on equity18 undermines the possibility for broad political19 --20 MEMBER MORIAL: I always -- it21 certainly -- it does, but it doesn't, because22 America's changed. The politics of the Nation2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1391 have changed, the problems of the nation have2 changed, and there's a much greater3 understanding. 4 The last call I took today was a5 call from someone who is trying to fill6 technology jobs. She's a recruiter. She7 called me. I'm looking for poeple. Find me8 some people. I'm having one dickens of a9 time. Can you find me some people? Can you10 connect me with some people who can do this?11 So here's a person in business, and12 I said well you know, she said this is a13 problem out here. Maybe we don't have the14 pipeline. Maybe we haven't trained the15 people. Maybe enough people aren't there to16 fill the jobs, and those that do are in such17 high demand they can demand any price.18 I really think that the backlash,19 the political backlash is important. But we20 have to take the bull by the horns and frame21 this around economic competitiveness. If you22 don't fix this problem with the changing2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1401 demographics, black and brown children are2 going to half of high school -- black, brown,3 Asian and Native American children are going4 to be half of the high school graduates by5 2018.6 Two-thirds of the new families7 formed between now and 2025 are going to be8 from communities of color. If those, if that9 community is left behind, it's going to be a10 total drag on the economy. We have to speak11 to the now. I think that is really the issue.12 But you know, I think in13 California, it's striking that some of you14 have just said "Look. We used to be best.15 Now after the backlash, we not be the best or16 we're not the best." You know, what is -- the17 effect of that is that California, that18 property tax backlash is one of the creators19 of California's current economic or fiscal20 problems and fiscal deadlocks.21 So part of it is saying yes, okay.22 Let's talk about it. You want to talk about2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1411 Proposition, what was it, 13?2 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Thirteen.3 MEMBER MORIAL: Proposition 13.4 Let's talk about what it wrought. Let's talk5 about the fruit of the tree. I mean I really6 think that too often, I'm not -- I think on7 the equity question and backlash, there is a8 chorus in this country than when you raise the9 term "equity" and when you raise the term10 "equality," they are going to yell no matter11 what.12 I think they have to be confronted13 with what the higher ground is, American14 economic competitiveness. You know, I'm15 struck by that, how that argument resonates.16 When it's tied to, it's not just my child,17 your child, whether my child makes it, your18 child makes it, but whether we as a nation are19 going to be able to compete.20 So we have to confront it, but I21 think your concerns are real, in that if this22 is all about we need to just make the2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1421 education system more equitable, because being2 more equitable is an important value, yes,3 we're going to get a lot of --4 But if we say is equity is part of5 the foundation for American economic6 competitiveness, and for us to build the type7 of 21st century workforce we need to sustain8 GDP growth, then I think we can frame this in9 a very different way. I really think that's10 the key, is how we frame this conversation11 with elected --12 Elected officials are, you know, I13 can speak as a former -- they're scared of the14 next election. They're scared of being15 criticized. They have to raise a whole lot of16 money. But one of the things you have at the17 state level with terms limits is you're not18 just talking to today's elected officials;19 you're talking about the tomorrows. 20 Because some of these folks who are21 here today are going to be gone in four, six,22 eight to ten years. So it's a frame -- we2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1431 have to be mindful of it, but I think it's how2 we frame it and I think how we lay out the3 evidence. I also think that for those that4 argue against equity, I think that there ought5 to be a heavy dose of global comparisons.6 You know, look. If you look at the7 numbers and you look at spending on education8 as a percentage of GDP, you know, where should9 we benchmark ourselves, you know, if we want10 to be first? I don't know where we're11 benchmarked now. I know we're not first, I12 know we're not last. 13 But by drawing a picture of where14 the United States is today, vis-á-vis other15 nations, is I think a very important part of16 helping people to understand. You know, is it17 wrapping ourselves a little bit in the flag?18 Yes, a little bit of what, quote you know,19 patriotism is about education? We've got to20 do that, and I think we've got to be mindful21 of how we frame it.22 But I don't think we should back2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1441 off of speaking very squarely about what the2 nation needs to do, what it should do. The3 other thing I'd make one other comment about,4 sort of the problems at the state level and5 the local level, one of my concerns is not6 just what happens in the instant, where money7 is tight and cutbacks are real, but that you8 have an alteration of priorities and formulas,9 such that when things get better, right,10 funding stays low.11 One of the things that local12 elected officials have said "Look. You know,13 we're mindful of today and now, but you should14 prioritize education." But then number two,15 you shouldn't take steps today that are going16 to balkanize funding when the economy comes17 back, when your tax revenues rise again.18 We have the opportunity to think in19 that fashion, and create some instruction in20 that fashion, because a lot of states and21 cities will put together a baseline one-year22 budget and five-year projections. 2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1451 You know, if you build these2 reductions into a long term projection, when3 money arises, you're going to have some4 politician that's going to say "Cut taxes, cut5 taxes." Money rises. They're going to say6 what's the latest, hottest sort of politically7 sexiest program I want to put money at, and8 they're going to put money towards that.9 So I think we should keep our mind10 on some long-term components of that too.11 MEMBER CASSERLY: Yes, just a brief12 comment. I'd like to associate myself with13 Marc's comments. But I do think we ought to14 have some place in the final report, somewhere15 where we speak directly to the concerns of16 people who created the backlash, because the17 backlash, whether it's on finance, whether18 it's on desegregation, whether it's on all19 kinds of things that have occurred over the20 last 40 to 60 years in education, those21 backlash forces are real.22 We ought to find a language that is2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1461 able to speak to whatever their concerns are,2 however real or imagined.3 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Keep going; I'm4 taking dictation.5 MEMBER CASSERLY: That was about6 all I had. I think all of this can probably7 imagine or list the concerns that people who8 push back on issues of equity and adequacy9 articulate, as justification for pushing back10 against arguments for equity and adequacy.11 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: If I had one12 question, it's how you would take them on.13 MEMBER CASSERLY: Well, I'm not14 part of the backlash, so I'm not sure that15 money doesn't matter, or money matters for me16 but not for you. I don't know.17 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: So taxes are too18 high.19 MEMBER CASSERLY: Yes. I pay20 enough taxes already, you know. I have a21 right to send my kid wherever I want to send22 them. I have the right to spend however much2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1471 money I want to spend in support of my kid,2 etcetera, etcetera.3 I think, with a little bit of time,4 we can probably concoct 10 or 12 or so such5 arguments. But I think our report ought to6 directly address those concerns, so it doesn't7 appear that we either ignored them or think8 that they're unimportant, or that people won't9 say them, no matter what the report suggests.10 I don't know if anybody agrees with that or11 not.12 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Well, the reason I13 was pressing you, I suppose, is there's a14 little bit of selection bias in the15 composition of this Commission. We're all16 people who presumably think that there are17 problems with the equity and excellence in the18 American education system.19 The folks who represent various20 portions of the backlash or the resistance to21 this theme, I think it's non-trivial figuring22 out what the real set of motivations are. Not2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1481 the caricatures of the motivations, but or to2 put it differently, what's the evidence or the3 argument that really will be persuasive.4 So the one concrete thing I've5 heard thus far really is thinking about what6 it would mean to have a patriotic education7 policy. What do we need for competitiveness,8 what do we need for full citizenship, and that9 perhaps folks in the backlash have, disagree10 with that, disagree as to what's required for11 it to have a patriotic education policy, or to12 be a full citizen. I'm not sure.13 MEMBER CASSERLY: Yes. I'm not14 sure either. I mean there's -- part of this,15 I think, at least with a certain segment of16 the population that basically -- and you saw17 with the insistence on the President's birth18 certificate controversy, where some people see19 themselves as more American than others.20 There are implications for that thinking in21 resource distribution. 22 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: So diversity can2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1491 be in tension with equity, the politics of2 equity.3 MEMBER CASSERLY: With the politics4 of it, right.5 ASST. SEC. ALI: Well, but I also6 -- I mean in California, we're talking about7 backlash that originated in California, which8 is probably a very different population than9 the one that you've just referred to, right.10 MEMBER CASSERLY: Yes. I'm11 speaking in more global terms.12 ASST. SEC. ALI: So but if the most13 liberal, right, if the perception is the most14 liberal and the backlash was taxpayers, right,15 the backlash was the public. So I think what16 worries me a little bit is I don't, I think17 almost even using backlash as language18 marginalizes it. 19 It is actually a belief system that20 despite all of the righteous reasons for why21 Serrano was able to -- Michael, your history22 post-Supreme Court and California's leadership2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1501 as the country; still, it's people over time2 because the pie felt small and lots of other3 reasons that we've talked about, retreated4 from --5 MEMBER CASSERLY: I agree with that6 thrust. I was just trying to --7 (Simultaneous speaking.)8 ASST. SEC. ALI: Yes, yes, yes.9 MEMBER MORIAL: Yes. I was going10 to add something.11 ASST. SEC. ALI: So I just --12 right. How we struggle through that and13 confront it, when these are all very, very14 real reasons for the effect of the rollback.15 (Off mic comments.)16 ASST. SEC. ALI: (off mic) I'm not17 sure we're going to get it --, like how we're18 going to solve people's altruistic natures19 going through that. I also think there's a20 deep distrust that spending more money will21 make a difference, on any level, at any kind22 of government piece.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1511 So we have to confront that,2 because there's huge evidence that people,3 that school districts, within states and4 across states, spend very different amounts of5 money to get very different levels of success,6 and that there are examples of very successful7 schools serving kids, concentrations of kids8 in high poverty with English language learners9 who spend $8,000 a pupil, and examples of10 horrible schools that spend $25,000 a pupil. 11 Part of this equity-excellence12 effort has to be about promoting public13 confidence that those dollars are being used14 well, and investing to understand how to begin15 to describe that.16 So when people talk about equity17 and adequacy in these settings, I think we18 can't underestimate the lack of knowledge and19 understanding around these issues, at the20 state level and at the individual level.21 So people don't know what we mean22 by adequacy, they don't know what we mean by2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1521 equity. They don't know that spending $8,0002 a pupil or 9,000 is what it's up to in3 California, is at the lowest level. We see it4 and then we count it out. But these are not5 numbers that are part of the water, in terms6 of what people talk about.7 So there's a huge piece of8 transparency, education and research that has9 to go around how dollars need to be used ell,10 and underlying that is that the structures11 that undergird education and drive spending in12 education are broken right now, just in the13 same way that, you know, we had General Motors14 broken.15 So there's a deep, you know, and16 escalating spending over time, all sorts of17 things tied up in structures that aren't,18 you're not able to access to so on.19 So that, I believe, is a deep part20 of why would I want to give more money to a21 system that is not consistently generating22 results, even if I did care deeply, which we2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1531 don't have to assume everyone does, you know,2 about the kids that are in the highest levels3 of poverty.4 So I think we need to do a much5 better job showcasing places that spend, you6 know, spend well and get great results, and we7 need to rebuild confidence that by investing8 in kids in poverty, we do get results.9 But we do so by doing the following10 kinds of things, and using dollars in these11 ways, and we need to promote metrics and we12 need to do it in ways that really get there,13 and not try to make people be good-hearted,14 but just in some senses shame them too.15 I mean, you know, we start putting16 these things out, and you know, after a while,17 it will become problematic, that there's this18 kind of differential in results, stemming from19 the use of resources. Which also gets to20 thinking differently about how we create21 accountability around the use of resources.22 It's not so much about defining2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1541 inputs, because as Linda was saying, that can2 lead to some very distorted sorts of changes.3 But just investing all, and I'm going to talk4 about special ed if it kills me today. But if5 we continue to measure and force particular6 inputs, we will end up with a system that7 grows exponentially, and where there isn't8 accountability for results.9 So we've got to invest in really10 understanding results in a sophisticated way,11 which we're going to do with core standards,12 but then beginning to link that down, all the13 way down to the individual student level, so14 we know what kind of investment in students15 with which kinds of needs we need to make, to16 get kids from where they begin to where we17 want them to end up.18 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: I have Reed,19 Carmel, Sandra and Cindy, was yours up? No,20 Randi. Okay. So Carmel and then Sandra.21 ASST. SEC. MARTIN: I pretty much22 wanted to say what Karen said. I mean I think2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1551 that there's some people who the backlash2 comes from, them thinking some people are more3 American than others, because of really evil4 thinking. But you know, I have family members5 who live in Texas and New Jersey, where these6 school finance debates have been really7 heated. They're like good, well-intentioned8 people and they're part of the backlash, and9 I've been sort of fighting with them for 2010 years.11 I think part of it is exactly what12 Karen said, that it's -- that they think well,13 if we just put this perception, particularly14 in, you know, urban large, large urban, low-15 income places, that success is not possible.16 So yes, I would take half my tax dollars and17 send it over there if I thought it would do18 any good. But I don't believe it would do any19 good.20 So I do think that part of the job21 of the Commission, and this gets back to22 something Chris said, is showing that success2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1561 is possible, that resources do matter when2 they're used well. Then if there's ways that3 we had constructive recommendations for how we4 could not only change the financing systems,5 but also ensure the accountability, as Karen6 was describing, I think that would be even7 more powerful than saying change the financing8 system, and being agnostic about results.9 I do think that Marc has a point,10 though, that there could be some policies11 where we would say that if you don't tackle12 this thing, then the chances of success are13 very low, and I think early learning is14 definitely one of those policies, that we15 can't like design the perfect education system16 in this report.17 But we could say that here are18 things where the evidence shows us that if we19 don't tackle them, then you can keep throwing20 money into the system, but you're not going to21 get the outcomes that you want. So I guess22 that's where I might disagree with Karen a2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1571 little bit. 2 Like I do think some inputs are3 more important than others. I would define4 college and career-ready standards as an5 input, and if you don't have that in place,6 then you can throw all the money you want into7 constructing a schoolhouse and what the8 activities in the schoolhouse, but they won't9 -- their chances of success. 10 They might be successful anyway if11 they have really great teachers in them, but12 their chances of success won't be good. I13 would argue that some policies around the14 teaching profession, if we don't tackle sort15 of teacher preparation in a more aggressive16 way, can we really, no matter how much money17 we throw into the system, can we really expect18 good results.19 So it seems like if we could get a20 combination of maybe what a model school21 finance systems looks like, some key22 components that are inputs, that we see as2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1581 foundational, that must be in place before you2 start getting real accountability for the3 results. But then the real important part is4 that it's not just the financing system, but5 the accountability for the financing system,6 as Karen described it.7 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: I'm not sure how8 we could design a perfect system, this9 Commission. If only we had until February.10 Sandra?11 MEMBER DUNGEE GLENN: Yes. I12 wanted to piggyback on some comments that Marc13 made and that Karen made, and to Marc's point14 about this issue of highlighting the economic15 imperative of this, I think it's very16 important.17 This came out at our first session18 as well, that making this more than just19 obviously moral, a moral argument or20 altruistic, but that it really, if we do not21 get it right about investments in education,22 equitable investments and making sure we don't2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1591 write off half of our young people, the next2 generation if you would, it's going to3 threaten the economic livelihood of this4 country, and also threaten the quality of life5 of all of us.6 I don't think there's enough -- I7 don't think we could emphasize that point too8 much, because I think part of what many people9 believe is that it's not about me. It's not10 going to touch me, I don't have children in11 school, you know. I'm a grandparent or12 whatever. 13 But I think we really have to14 showcase the fact the enormity of the problem15 and the number of young people, the sheer16 numbers of young people that this is17 impacting, and how that is going to really18 impact us nationally. I think that's a piece19 of it.20 The other part, to Karen's part,21 the cynicism that is out there around the22 spending of dollars and it not making a2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1601 difference. I think that goes to the point2 about California. We can put billions of3 dollars in education, which we do now, and4 what people hear everyday is how it doesn't5 work, how it's broken, what is not going to6 make a difference.7 That is highlighted daily in most8 of the media that we are confronted with. So9 I think the importance of this report, keeping10 that link so tight between targeted11 investments, where investments have been made12 that have shown improved outcomes, and how13 investments with accountability, investments14 in proven practices, is really what we're15 talking about, not just throwing money.16 Money does matter. How money is17 spent matters more, if you would, or at least18 as much. And again, I think at every point19 where we're making this argument about equity,20 and obviously linking it to excellence, we21 have to talk about how and where and in what22 kinds of things we have seen, or we see the2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1611 evidence around the changing outcomes.2 Because I do think people respond3 when you can show something's changed.4 Something is different; it is better. But we5 don't, we really have not, I don't think, been6 able to keep that as a consistent message7 systematically. Just highlighting a school8 here or there is insufficient. I think we9 have to show where we can bring it to scale,10 where it has come to scale, and is having some11 impact.12 So I would think those are some key13 components that I would hope we'd be able to14 get at in the report.15 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Okay, Randi.16 MEMBER WEINGARTEN: So there's been17 a lot of conversation around the table on how18 to actually try to frame this issue, and I19 think what's interesting is that Marc and20 Karen hit on something, and Sandra just21 reinforced it. 22 But they hit on something that2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1621 those of that spend a lot of time in this2 space didn't really, and I know Karen spends3 her time in this space. But it's really4 different than the way in which we were5 thinking about it, which is when you close6 your eyes and then say what is it that we want7 kids to know and be able to do?8 What is it that we want education9 to be able to help kids achieve? Preparation10 for college or preparation for life,11 preparation for hopefully, you know, college12 or career.13 If we start that way, and then14 start then with the building blocks, as15 opposed to this is what a perfect equity16 situation will look like, or this is what a17 perfect state finance situation would look18 like, and we try it -- but start with the19 outcome of what we hope public education20 produces for all kids in America, and then21 have a value statement, and then kind of22 examples of how to get there, that may be a2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1631 better way of going than where we were2 initially.3 Because all of this, you know, when4 you start initially, and you know, I was in5 the same place as Michael was talking. I'm6 like okay, it can't just be equity. It has to7 be about adequacy too, what does that mean in8 different places? Does that mean something9 different in New York and California?10 Yes, of course it does, and does it11 mean something different in other places as12 well? Of course it does. When you then start13 with what are the building blocks to get14 there, you know, and does you know, does15 property taxes work in some places but it16 doesn't work in other places?17 It becomes in some ways almost an18 impossible situation for us to do in a quick19 period of time, in terms of this is what the20 perfect formulation looks like.21 But if there is something about22 this is what we want to see, and when money is2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1641 spent, for example, taking something that2 Karen said, when it is spent -- or maybe it3 was Sandra -- when it is spent well, this much4 money spent well can produce this. But it's5 not the money alone. It's also the6 infrastructure. It's also the system that7 gets set up.8 I was struck by something that9 Carmel said at the same time. Carmel, you've10 changed, which is that if -- it's like on11 teacher preparation. When teachers walk in,12 like in Finland or Singapore and Ontario more13 prepared, there's going to be -- it is14 different than when they walk in less15 prepared.16 A district has to do much more, the17 less prepared teachers are. The same is true18 in terms of engagement, and in terms of what19 -- and in terms of jobs for the future. If a20 district has an infrastructure that enables21 all sorts of different career path, then it's22 going to have to spend less money on upgrading2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1651 that infrastructure than if a district has2 done it bad.3 So the variables, in terms of what4 it cost even for something specific like5 teacher effectiveness, it's going to be6 different, depending upon a whole slew of7 circumstances. So as all of you were talking,8 Marc in particular started saying okay, this9 is what it needs to look like.10 We're not going to get to a11 position of public confidence, even -- we12 could come up with a prefect template. But if13 really silly people or people who are not14 well-meaning applied it, it would look15 different and bad in one place versus another16 place.17 So a value system and then what18 those things look like, may be a better way to19 go, as opposed to the analytical way that many20 of us who are in this space thought about.21 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Okay. So that's22 not good enough. So say a little bit more2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1661 about -- okay. So say more about the value2 system that you would imagine.3 MEMBER WEINGARTEN: So look. For4 me, the value system -- I'm so glad you asked5 that question. The value system that I6 imagine is I start thinking about what systems7 need to move all children. That's what I8 start thinking about, and I've come up with,9 and this is just in my feeble mind, I've come10 up with four different building blocks.11 One is quality, which is really12 obvious, but it's the pipeline, as well as the13 systems, the education systems themselves, and14 this is what I mean. If the pipeline, we've15 learned this -- well, let me do the four. 16 Quality, equity, shared17 accountability, a reciprocal accountability18 system, and collaboration in terms of the19 engagement of how people have to operate20 within and amongst themselves in an education21 space.22 On quality, everybody talks about2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1671 the human resource issues. What we've learned2 from the countries that out-compete us, and3 some of the systems that do well in America,4 and we see this from the McKinsey reports and5 we see this from other reports as well, is6 that when the pipeline is really good, when7 there's really -- when somebody walks into8 teaching like they walk into medicine, then9 it's a whole different school system and a10 whole different experience for kids, than when11 somebody doesn't, both collectively and12 individually.13 But motion in terms of -- so it's14 the pipeline, but then it's also a teacher15 evaluation system has to be robust, multiple16 measures. But it has to first and foremost be17 about continuous improvement, and when it is,18 then the sorting mechanisms become very easy19 to deal with.20 When the creation of that system is21 through this kind of test-based22 accountability, as opposed to thinking through2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1681 if it's kind of test-based, as opposed to2 thinking about knowledge and skills, we're3 going to get back in terms of the muck and the4 mire.5 So I'm thinking about teacher6 quality, as both the pipeline as well as a7 robust evaluation system that's about8 continuous improvement.9 In terms of equity, the way I think10 about equity is you have to fixate on the11 instructional plan, and how you ensure that12 the kids who have the least get the most, and13 whether it is through federal intervention,14 whether it is through what people -- whether15 it is the adequacy-equity framework that16 Michael so brilliantly did in New York,17 whether it is other kinds of things, there has18 to be an equity component, that says that all19 kids should not be treated equally. There has20 to be an equity for kids who have been left21 behind.22 So for me, it's wrap-around2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1691 services, it's just in time assistance, it's2 how you focus like a laser on turning around3 low-performing schools. But it's also about4 how you ensure that communities have stable5 school situations.6 This is where I think Karen was7 going, in terms of whole notion of8 accountability has to be thought through9 differently, and every time we have a top-down10 accountability system, it does not work. Our11 space is people-specific, relationship-driven,12 very dynamic.13 So if we don't figure out a14 reciprocal accountability system that is in15 some way self-enforcing, we will never get16 accountability right.17 It has to be some kind of shared18 responsibility, and there's a bunch of19 different places that do it now in different20 ways. So I'm not saying that every single21 school teacher should have the, you know,22 should be rating every single principal. But2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1701 I'm saying that for even on a simple issue, if2 teachers say these are the tools and the3 conditions I need to do my job and they don't4 get it, who's responsible for that?5 If we don't create some bilateral6 responsibility, then we're constantly in a7 hierarchical top-down model that's not going8 to work for all kids. The last is in all, you9 know, in the last two years that I've been10 looking at school systems across the country11 and across the world, I'm not saying that12 there isn't a role for competition. I'm not13 walking into that.14 What I'm saying is that when things15 work, what you see is a real shared mission16 and shared process for getting to that17 mission. That's what I mean by collaboration,18 because there's thousands of different19 decisions that people make every single day.20 If there -- in those districts, the districts21 that basically have the trust to enable them22 to work together to move an agenda.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1711 So those four, when you're fixated2 on quality, when you're fixated on equity, and3 again, I say equity, you know, instruction and4 engagement comes into either quality or5 equity; when you're fixated on trying to6 change an accountability system so it is7 mutually reinforcing and it's not simply about8 teachers and principals, but it's also a9 broader community accountability system if you10 can get there, and you use collaboration, you11 see schools, school districts and countries.12 I don't know if that works for you or not.13 MEMBER BROWN: Have you seen a14 place -- the shared accountability is really15 interesting. Have you seen that anywhere?16 MEMBER WEINGARTEN: Actually, I've17 seen it in practice in the ABC School District18 in Southern California, and I've started19 seeing aspects of it in practice other places.20 Like you're starting to hear -- and I see it a21 lot in practice in business.22 But like when people say that there2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1721 should be surveys that get done, you know,2 where teachers' input is taken. But there has3 to -- it has to be done in a very4 deliberative, thoughtful way. 5 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: In your, as you6 laid out these four building blocks, the7 thumbnail statement of the vision, the goal of8 all of this, you said, was -- you said what9 systems are needed in order to move all10 children.11 So I guess I would turn that inside12 out and say the value that you're suggesting,13 the goal that you're suggesting is we want an14 education system that works for each child.15 Then these are the building blocks16 that would be necessary to create such an17 education system.18 MEMBER WEINGARTEN: Right.19 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Right, and then20 there's another plain, I think, of issues21 underlying your four, which I guess would be22 finance and governance issues, I suppose?2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1731 MEMBER WEINGARTEN: Right, I mean2 because governance, finance. I mean one could3 argue --4 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: There have to be5 three, governance, finance, data.6 MEMBER WEINGARTEN: Data. Well,7 one could argue that, and I don't mean to --8 I'm going to stop now. One could argue that,9 you know, finance is the framing principle.10 One could argue that governance, other people11 argue that governance is the framing12 principle.13 I try to think about it in terms of14 what happens in the connection between the15 child and teacher, and then how you create a16 system around that, as opposed to how you17 create -- this is the dollars you have, and18 this is how you mete it out. 19 But if you're thinking about a20 school system's, what our obligation is is we21 have to help all kids have the knowledge that22 they need, the skills that they need, to be2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1741 prepared for life. So if we don't figure out2 how we help teachers have that, we're not3 going to help kids have that.4 But that's not enough. So that's5 part of the reason why I start with those four6 broad principles. You're right; finance,7 governance, all of that is the wherewithal to8 get it done.9 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: So to prepare our10 children for life, competition, citizenship,11 we need an education system that works for12 each child. The building blocks of that are13 A, B, C, D and the foundation, the14 preconditions, the context for that would be a15 sound finance system, the right kind of16 governance, the right kind of data,17 information, research, whatever. Okay.18 Linda. I'm sorry. Oh Reed, and then Linda.19 CO-CHAIR HASTINGS: I think I20 certainly agree with you, that it's about how21 do we get Americans to invest more in22 education. So my original question on equity2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1751 versus adequacy, which it has been helpful to2 hear the different responses on, is partially3 triggered, because I feel like we're stuck in4 an old debate.5 This Commission, if you look at the6 records, was originally the Equity Commission,7 and our thoughtful leadership got "and8 excellence" kind of inserted in there. I9 think when we -- so if we could rename it, or10 if I could rename it, it would be adequacy,11 excellence and efficiency.12 Because I'm interested in changing13 the political dynamic, so that we invest more,14 okay. I agree with you that equity is15 fundamental, but I'm mostly interested in the16 pragmatics, of how to build a political17 consensus to increase the investment to serve18 the children.19 I think the adequacy lessons are20 well-served, or children, particularly in21 communities of color are well-served if we22 focus on adequacy. To me, it's a much more2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1761 winning, embracing political framework, when2 one talks about adequacy.3 Randi, mostly I agree with 904 percent of what you said, in terms of, you5 know, the goal of supporting teachers, because6 that's how we change the system. The part7 that slips in on equity, you said, those that8 have the least get the most. This is a flavor9 of weighted student formula.10 You know, part of me loves the idea11 of weighted student formula, because it's a12 clever budgetary, you know, analytic thing,13 and you may not have meant it in that way. 14 But I think in general, again when15 we do the "have the least gets the most," and16 I'm not sure if you meant that, but there's17 part of us that wants that, okay, because part18 of our human psyche, particularly in this19 room, is about fairness, and that feels more20 fair.21 But part of it is about generating,22 you know, more overall investment, which is2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1771 what makes me want to start, as you said, you2 know, with what we want for all children, you3 know, which are very positive things and how4 we fund it, and not to worry about, you know,5 the Palo Alto family that puts, you know, 5K6 to their local school, because you know,7 they're also putting 5K into their music8 lessons and they're also, you know, spending a9 lot of time at dinner, you know, talking about10 the New York Times, okay.11 And we're not going to try to12 change any of that, and in fact we should flip13 it around to celebrate it, that the more that14 parents invest in their kids, and we want to15 make sure there's adequacy. Then if we keep16 coming back to that, we may be more successful17 at generating a broad consensus to continue18 the investment that I think most of us would19 like to see.20 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Did you want to21 clarify?22 MEMBER WEINGARTEN: I'm sorry.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1781 Well first Reed, thank you for that focus,2 because I actually didn't -- I'm actually3 opposed to weighted student formulas. I've4 seen them, and I've seen them not work. But5 take Marc's point before, when we know about6 early childhood. 7 So what I mean by that is that8 systems, we need to level the playing field9 for kids, which means systems that have, say,10 X amount of child poverty, we need to make11 sure that there is early childhood education.12 We need to make sure that there's wraparound13 services.14 It's much more of a systems15 approach, to try to level the playing field,16 so that kids have the opportunity.17 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Well that's the18 adequacy.19 MEMBER WEINGARTEN: Correct.20 CO-CHAIR HASTINGS: Let me suggest21 that level can have multiple interpretations,22 and one notion of leveling is pulling down,2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1791 but it's not the one you like.2 MEMBER WEINGARTEN: Correct, right.3 CO-CHAIR HASTINGS: So really what4 we're trying to do is raising --5 MEMBER WEINGARTEN: We're talking6 about opportunity, correct.7 CO-CHAIR HASTINGS: It's increasing8 opportunity for Americans, you know. I would9 say that words like leveling and equity, you10 know, are heard back to the backlash, you11 know, different ways.12 MEMBER MORIAL: Yes. I wanted to13 make a point. One thing, you know, in these14 sorts of -- this sort of work, you cannot win15 everybody over. Consensus, to me, means16 trying to get better than half, better than17 the majority. The point is is that the forces18 that would criticize this are very loud, very19 vocal, very aggressive.20 Look at our good friend, Mr. Trump.21 But don't go look at his polling numbers now.22 He got a lot of attention, but there's a small2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1801 segment of the population that bought into his2 point of view. So I think it's important we3 ought to try to achieve consensus, but my4 political perspective is you just cannot win. 5 There's going to be, if this6 Commission said red is red and blue is blue7 and green is green and up is up and down is8 down, there will be people who will say "no,9 it isn't. That is not the case. That isn't10 so." So I want, I think we should keep in11 mind that no matter what we speak to or how we12 speak to it, there's going to be some course,13 indeed, of opposition.14 So I think that how we frame it and15 how we tie it to things that are external16 education, which is why global competition,17 and first class American education system.18 What does it take to build a first class19 American education system? 20 That those things are the kinds of21 broad concepts that we can achieve some22 consensus over, so that it isn't that we're2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1811 trying to achieve consensus on every detailed2 aspect of the plan, but kind of in the vision3 of why adequacy and equity are important.4 The other thing, I think Mike made5 a very important set of points. We have to6 pressure-test this report ourselves, pressure7 test the arguments against the likely8 opposition, or the likely arguments against,9 so that we're not in our own heads or in our10 own space or in our own room, or we think that11 this is a document where we're going to be12 preaching to the choir.13 So, you know, the political side of14 it is incredibly difficult, but I think the15 spirit of government commissions and advisory16 commissions are to take difficult issues and17 kick them to people like us, who may be able18 to take a broader point of view and not be so19 bogged down in the day to day politics.20 I mean I don't think that the21 Department has to absolutely defend every22 component in this report. I think we have to2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1821 defend every aspect of this report, and the2 Department can, you know, say we like some of3 it, we don't like some of it, we agree with4 some of it, we don't agree with some of it.5 I mean I think that's the spirit,6 you know Chris, with which all these7 commissions have sort of operated, and I think8 we should welcome that. But I don't dismiss9 the political concerns, but I think we have to10 pressure test is.11 But we're not going to write12 anything or release anything where everyone's13 going to stand up and say here here, the14 gang's all here. We're so happy with what you15 all have done.16 There will be, because feigned17 outrage, right, is a political strategy in18 21st century America, and that's, you know, if19 you understand quote "the strategy," if you've20 ever been in the box of how people think21 politically, creating feigned outrage about22 reports like this, to try to stimulate, you2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1831 know, opposition.2 But there are all sorts of ways in3 a funding formula. There are hold harmless4 provisions that we're not going to take. But5 what the root of this is, and this is the6 final point I'll make, the root of this is a7 value system in this country that says that8 whenever you try to do something for somebody9 else, you're taking away from somebody.10 That's why I think speaking to some11 broader outcomes and objectives might be the12 only way we can get out of that little box.13 Oh, if you're going to spend more on urban14 school districts, that absolutely means you're15 going to spend. 16 But I'm here to tell you that this17 problem is not in urban school districts alone18 anymore. This is a problem in the suburbs,19 the inner ring suburbs. This is a problem of20 the small town, Providence and Springfield and21 cities that have less than 200,000, and22 listening to the people talk in old New2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1841 England communities, and the challenges that2 they face from an economic standpoint, where3 the unemployment rates are higher than they4 are in big cities like Dallas and Houston.5 So I would, you know, respect6 fully, I think, the comments that are being7 made. But I think we have to frame what we8 do, and not be naive politically about how we9 state this.10 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Linda and then11 Michael and Jesse.12 MEMBER DARLING-HAMMOND: I think13 we're building a little bit of a consensus14 here, and kind of back to the point that Reed15 was making, about adding the notion of16 efficiency, which echoes what Carmel said17 earlier about resources do matter when they're18 used well. I think all of that is a really19 important piece.20 If you add the infrastructure part21 that Randi was putting in place, it begins to22 give us a picture. I wanted to note that2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1851 there are a number of examples that we can2 look to, around where resources have met or3 where they were used well. Sandra, you made4 this point as well.5 The National Education Goals Panel,6 for a number of years, documented what was7 going on in states that were raising8 achievement, and we can go back to when9 Kentucky did it, KERA reforms back in the late10 80's and early 90's, a very thoughtful11 approach with preschool and certain education12 reforms, accountability standards, as well as13 funding, drove achievement up.14 Now in all of these cases I'm going15 to name, there's been a backsliding, which16 gets us back to why you need a federal role,17 because states make progress and then they18 backslide.19 But Massachusetts, the same thing.20 You know, their reforms were driven initially21 by a school finance lawsuit, which put in22 place a new funding system, along with the2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1861 standards and the other reforms that they put2 in place, that have driven them forward. You3 can say the same thing about reforms in4 Connecticut, North Carolina, where they went5 from being at the bottom of the country to6 well above the national average.7 Infrastructure, building a stable,8 better prepared teaching force, preschool,9 summer school, a set of reforms around10 standards and investments in curriculum.11 So you could really tell a story12 about how money spent strategically and13 purposefully and equitably or more equitably,14 has driven achievement gains and closing of15 the achievement gap over the last 20 years.16 The other part of the story that's17 the sad part is that in each of those cases,18 you can talk about the tax backlash that Reed19 started us off with, or some other backsliding20 that has occurred. So that's a piece of the21 story that we also have to deal with.22 But the things that go on in these2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1871 states that have been strategic, and have2 thought efficiently about how to spend the3 money, are also the things that you see in4 other countries. So we can link that to the5 argument about what's going on6 internationally. Singapore, Finland. 7 I mean what China's about to put in8 place, as they try to bring the rest of the9 country up to where Hong Kong and Shanghai10 are, is breathtaking, and maybe is worthy of a11 little conversation in this.12 If economic competitiveness is a13 driver for the rationale, what China is doing14 right now to dramatically upgrade the teaching15 force, dramatically upgrade the rural schools16 and so on is just chilling, really, in its17 scope and speed.18 But they have, you know, equitable19 funding in most of the higher-preforming20 countries, equitable and comparable salaries,21 a strong pre-service preparation and in-22 service, all the infrastructure stuff that2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1881 Randi talked about. So that's probably a good2 part of the argument to bring in.3 The other piece, when we think4 about this infrastructure side, and the5 wastefulness, the ways in which we waste6 money, which I think we should talk about,7 that money can be badly spent, and we need to8 be clear about that.9 Not building a stable, high quality10 teaching force in high need districts is one11 of the most wasteful things we do, because of12 the costs of churn, of attrition, the cost of13 professional development that goes down the14 drain when people come in and leave right15 away, the cost of failed reforms, the cost of16 unnecessary special education and grade17 retention.18 Everything else you try to do19 doesn't work when you've got that kind of --20 so that piece of it, preschool, wraparound21 services and summer school, I think, should be22 on the agenda.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1891 Yes. I just want to say, one of2 the -- one powerful recent report shows that3 about a third of the difference in rich and4 poor kids' achievement is present at5 kindergarten. It's the achievement gap that6 exists before you get there, which preschool7 ameliorates to some extent.8 And almost two-thirds is summer9 learning loss, because during the school year,10 the rate of growth is about equal between rich11 and poor schools. So what teachers do between12 September and June is almost equivalent in13 terms of gains. But if you're already behind,14 and then you fall further behind every summer.15 So I think as we think about16 infrastructure, really tying it to some of17 what we know, our investments that are18 critically needed would be helpful. 19 Last point on self-interest. I20 think we have to talk about the $300 billion a21 year that dropouts cost us, the $50 billion a22 year that prisons cost us, the fact that it is2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1901 in everyone's self-interest for kids to be2 well enough educated that they can join the3 labor market, than 80 percent of inmates are4 dropouts, that more than half are functionally5 illiterate, that this is not only a sentencing6 problem, but it's also an education problem.7 If those kids -- if kids that we8 wouldn't spend $8,000 a year on to get them9 well-educated as children, we spend $46,000 a10 year on them ten years later when they are11 inmates, and that part of the budget is12 absorbing the money for public higher13 education and so on, that whole piece of it14 matters to me, for my social security and my15 health care, that everybody coming up has a16 good job and pays a lot of taxes.17 You know, that piece of the18 argument, I think, would be important to kind19 of get on the table. There's a difference20 between the problem in a place like21 Washington, D.C., where there's a lot of money22 badly spent for a long time, and a place where2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1911 the deep under-resourcing of communities with2 concentrated poverty, where you're spending3 20,000 in D.C., but you're spending 8,000 in4 Oakland or 6,000 Baldwin Park, where 755 percent, 80 percent, 90 percent of the kids6 live in poverty. There's high levels of7 homelessness, high levels of dysfunction, and8 high levels of churn in the teaching force9 because the salaries are $10,000 less than the10 next. 11 That deep under-resourcing of those12 places that are really school to prison13 pipelines, is a different problem than the14 general problem of equity. I think it's15 important to call that out.16 There's no high-achieving nation in17 the world that says it's in our best interest18 to deeply under-resource, you know, the19 education of a group of kids who will not be20 able to join the labor force, because they21 haven't had people who know how to teach them22 to read, they haven't had, you know, the2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1921 services that they need.2 So that piece, I think, needs to be3 called out in a particular way.4 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: So how about if we5 -- I want to do -- Dennis has been waiting6 longer, and then let me come back to Jesse and7 to Michael. How about if we had, if we did a8 two by two matrix, involving sort of good9 resourcing versus sound policies? Then in10 each of the four cells, we have some examples11 of places, to the extent that we were12 courageous enough to name some names.13 But I think that would very well14 illustrate some of the points that we've been15 making, about how you have to get the16 combination right to make sustained progress.17 Dennis.18 MEMBER VAN ROEKEL: It's been19 really a fascinating discussion. I think one20 of the things as we talk, is we have to decide21 in our own minds, as I read through the22 materials, whether we have an education system2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1931 that generally falls short of what it should2 accomplish, or whether we don't have a broad-3 based educational crisis, but rather a failing4 to educate at high levels for one significant5 part of the student population, low income.6 Because where you start from that7 really changes the direction you go. Is it8 the entire system that's failing, or is it a9 part of the system or a group of students that10 is not working, but it's working for others?11 The second observation as I listen12 to this discussion, I think we're talking13 about the right questions and it's very14 important the order in which we do them. We15 start with the school finance and resources. 16 I think that's the third question,17 not the first, because I think what you have18 to start with is what do you want to19 accomplish for the students? What do you want20 to accomplish for the students?21 Then when you listen from the22 international summit, when they answer that2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1941 question, it's not just math and reading.2 They have measurements and components about3 the whole child. They define what they want4 to accomplish for every student. 5 The second thing, then, you have to6 talk about is how will we do that? That's7 where you come into places with recognizing8 the difference in those students, early9 childhood may be one of the things that you10 plan to do, in order to accomplish that with a11 certain group of students.12 I think that's where accountability13 comes in, because when you say as you move to14 -- well, let me skip that a second. So how do15 you plan to do it? Then the third question is16 the resource one. What are the resources you17 need in order to accomplish that? 18 So for example, if you say that the19 way you plan to do it is early childhood20 development is a key component of making that21 difference, and you don't have the resources22 to do it, you're doomed to failure.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1951 I think accountability is really2 doing what you said you were going to do. You3 say you're going to do all these things; you4 don't provide any resources. I think that's5 Randi's point about shared accountability,6 whether it be teachers or a system.7 If you don't give them what they8 know they need, well then somebody ought to be9 held accountable for that. The other thing, I10 think, around that accountability is when you11 think of pick a car, someone might say that12 the quality of a Lexus and a Yugo are not the13 same. 14 But the real question when you're15 making it is did you build it according to16 specs? The specs are what are different, not17 the quality in building it. They may have18 built the best Yugo in the whole wide world on19 those specs, but it's really not a very good20 car.21 That's where it comes into the22 education system very first defining what is2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1961 it that we want for the students of America.2 Then you must build a system that will3 actually do that. We've got to build the4 specs. Quality is whether you met those. But5 if you build lousy specs for kids who happen6 to come from a poverty background, well then7 you can't say it's a poor quality education;8 we did it just the way you said you designed9 it to be. I think that's very important.10 So as we do our own work in this11 Commission, I think it's really important as12 we build our report that we think about the13 order in which we want to present things. By14 doing them in the wrong order, I think you15 create a whole discussion that is very16 negative and counterproductive.17 Because if we start arguing about18 resources first, and we don't know what it is19 we want to accomplish, and the plan that needs20 to be done to actually make that happen, you21 will fail for certain.22 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Okay. We're about2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1971 15 minutes from a break, is that right? No.2 More or less, about 15. Okay, Jesse and then3 Mike Rebell, and then David. Sure, okay, and4 then break. Okay, so Jesse -- what did I say?5 Jesse, Michael, David and Jose, and then the6 break. 7 MEMBER RUIZ: Interesting8 discussion, and I appreciate -- and this week,9 I'm transitioning from a state board of10 education, accepted Mayor Emmanuel's11 appointment to join the Chicago Public School12 Board on Friday.13 So that will be my last board14 meeting. The state in Springfield, Illinois15 on Thursday, and then jump into the local16 district. So I mean been focusing on the17 local districts -- 18 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: Congratulations,19 sort of, yes.20 MEMBER RUIZ: And thinking about21 Chicago and some of the comments, and it's22 like a Dickens novel. It's like the best of2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1981 districts, it's the worst in districts, and2 there are schools like Walter Peyton High3 School in Chicago that have their own4 endowment fund, a là Palo Alto. But this is5 within the same district. This could be three6 miles away. You could have a school through,7 you know, let alone endowment funds, that8 don't have basic resources.9 So that's something that Marc's10 comments ring very true, because if I go to11 the North Shore, North Shore just a bit ways12 out of Chicago, and I tell those folks I want13 to take some of their tax dollars and send14 them to downstate Illinois, where it's $5,00015 a student compared to their $25,000 a student,16 you know, they'll scream bloody murder.17 But they'll go to the charter18 school fundraiser and drop thousands of19 dollars at the site of an auction. It's a20 matter of them trusting who they're giving21 their dollars to. 22 So we definitely have to be2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1991 cognizant of that as we do this report on the2 audience, the folks who will push back, the3 folks who will just say you're putting more4 money into a bad system, but also focus on the5 severe disparities a few city blocks away in6 some districts across America, and those who7 have the ability to get a public education,8 but really it's not, because it's elevated and9 supported by a private endowment fund, by10 parents who felt we could afford the best11 private education they can, but they avail12 themselves of public education, as they're13 entitled to. But it's supplemented.14 It's that supplement that is15 really, you know, getting them that world16 class education, and the folks on the South17 Side of Chicago who can't supplement it, who18 are getting the worst public education. So19 that's obviously a focus.20 But Marc's points are great, in21 terms of the political resistance, in saying22 that there are additional resources needed,2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11001 and they have to be targeted to a certain2 population, those who can't create their own3 endowment fund.4 MEMBER REBELL: Okay. I wanted to5 just give some empirical support to the points6 that Reed and Marc were making, on the7 importance of addressing the concerns of the,8 what somebody originally termed, "the backlash9 population." I think it's reality, in the10 fact that this has come out at this point in11 such a strong way I think is really important,12 because it's a bigger reality today than it13 was years ago when I first started dealing14 with this.15 But we started our public16 engagement process in New York, which was a17 parallel track to the whole litigation, and we18 started our case in New York City, and we19 realized from the outset that if we want some20 big litigation and got an order from a court21 for a lot more money for kids in New York22 City, but did not relate to the rest of the2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11011 state, we would have a political blood bath2 when we got to Albany, with whatever their3 court order said.4 So from the beginning, we were out5 for building coalitions and keeping in mind6 how we were going to sell this thing7 politically. I remember the first year of our8 public engagement, we had a series of9 conversations, conferences with our core10 constituencies in New York City, who were the11 equity constituencies. They were people who12 felt that they were getting the short end of13 the stick, and were really looking for our14 litigation to be an equity litigation.15 But we really talked through these16 political realities and theory of adequacy and17 what it could deliver, and I was amazed. By18 the end of the year, because this was a series19 of meetings with all these groups and people20 that started in October and went through May,21 we had a real consensus, over 90 percent Marc,22 that said we're not going to ask to have equal2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11021 funding. We're going to ask for adequacy.2 We're going to ask to raise what we have,3 without pulling down, playing Robin Hood with4 anyone else.5 I can tell you the power of this6 thing. I'd just illustrate it. By the next7 year, the first meeting we had in reaching out8 to the wealthy suburbs, which was the area we9 wanted to at least neutralize, if we couldn't10 win them over. I was invited to a meeting of11 the League of Women Voters in Scarsdale, which12 is probably the wealthiest suburban district13 in New York City, and it was in somebody's14 luxurious megahouse, with I don't know how15 many people in the living room.16 But you know, when I walked in17 there, I had this reputation, "this is the guy18 who's bringing this lawsuit, that's going to19 take money away from us and our kids." And20 you know, the body language and the looks were21 all of these knives coming at me.22 So the first thing I said is I want2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11031 to tell you, we had a series of conversations2 last year. We made some fundamental3 decisions, and the essence of the decisions4 are we're fighting for more for kids in New5 York City, but we're going to guarantee you,6 we're not going to look to take a nickel away7 from what you have, or undermine the quality8 of what your kids have.9 But what we're asking you is if we10 give you that commitment, don't you think you11 have a moral obligation to do more for the12 kids in the inner city, and to bring them13 closer to where your kids are? I can tell you14 -- without moving to New York.15 Well, that's Jim Ryan's agenda. We16 can talk about that. But anyway, yes. That's17 exactly true. But I think that's what we're18 talking about here. But I've just got to tell19 you, the shift in the body language and all20 the rest, it was like, you know, all the air21 went out of the bubble. Everybody's relaxed,22 and what they want to talk about is2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11041 accountability, and how do I know if we're2 paying more taxes that's not going down the3 drain and all of that.4 Those kinds of conversations you5 can have, and you can get places. Anyway, so6 long story, it was ten years of working in7 this direction. I can tell you when we8 finally won our big court case and it went to9 the legislature, they voted more money than10 the court ordered, and a lot of it was these11 political coalitions and the Assemblywoman12 from Scarsdale supported us, and had built13 this whole thing with our constituency.14 Yes, we held everyone harmless, and15 we gave the wealthy districts a two percent16 increase. But we gave New York City and the17 other districts a 10 or 15 percent increase,18 and that was in a time of more money, I grant19 that. 20 But I can just tell you21 politically, the adequacy approach really22 works. I want to endorse what you added on to2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11051 it, Reed, because I think in the current2 environment, the question of cost3 effectiveness and efficiency rings true with4 everybody.5 So if we were going to rename the6 Commission, I go along with you that it should7 be, what did you say, "Adequacy, Excellence8 and Efficiency." But we've also got to keep9 equity. So adequacy, excellence, efficiency10 and equity. Somehow, that's what our vision11 statement should contain. Not in those12 cumbersome terms, but I think we've got to13 rework. I still like the concept of14 Revitalizing the American Dream. But those15 should be the components of the American dream16 for the 21st century.17 MEMBER SCIARRA: So I'd like to see18 if we can at least throw some ideas out, to19 move past sort of old notions of equity,20 adequacy and the like, that came out of21 Serrano and even more recent cases that some22 of us have been involved with, and think2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11061 about, picking up on Linda's points, is sort2 of thinking about how do we reframe the sort3 of equity, if you want to call it equity for4 the moment, challenge.5 To me at this point looking6 forward, it's about ensuring all students,7 Chris your point about every child, but all8 students, but in particular low income9 students, English language learners, kids with10 disabilities, students of color, if you want11 to add that in, the opportunity to achieve12 rigorous standards. It's about rigorous13 content standards that will prepare them for14 citizenship, for college, postsecondary, and15 the knowledge economy.16 So to me, that's the sort of17 overarching issue that overarches all of it.18 When you look at the issue of finance in19 particular, and a lot of issues come under20 that, but since we're here talking primarily21 about finance.22 So when you look at it that way,2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11071 what we have to have are funding systems that2 ensure sufficient levels of resources, to3 provide that rigorous curriculum in a broad4 range of content areas, not just math and5 language arts, but the broad range of content6 areas that we need to expose our kids to.7 They're delivered by well-trained8 teachers, effective leadership and so forth9 and so on. But it also requires, and this is10 where the traditional equity or adequacy piece11 comes in, additional funding for schools with12 high concentrations, or for kids and schools13 with higher concentrations of need.14 So that need is represented by low15 income concentrations, large numbers of ELL16 kids, kids with disabilities and the like.17 Because these kids, and I think this is what18 Linda was getting at, need extra resources in19 order to get them, give them the equal shot at20 achieving those rigorous standards.21 So this is where the extra22 resources for teacher equity in high needs2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11081 districts that was being discussed, preschool,2 full day kindergarten, more time on task,3 extended learning, summer, those sorts of4 things that we know, extra interventions that5 have to be in place, in order to get those6 kids to achieve those standards.7 So what we need are standards-8 driven funding systems. We don't have them in9 the United States. We have 50 state finance10 systems, and virtually all of them, there's a11 few exceptions, but from California to12 Arkansas -- well, Arkansas' a little bit13 better, but some states have made some efforts14 at this.15 But we have very few examples of16 states that have really worked hard at trying17 to, at least in some thoughtful way, think18 about how do we determine the level of19 resources necessary to deliver rigorous20 standards to all of our kids, that we are21 responsible for, states are responsible for22 this, and designing a system to try to figure2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11091 what those resources are, particularly those2 expert resources, and then how do you deliver3 them, you know, how do you have a stable,4 consistent revenue source, so forth and so on.5 There's not a lot of issues6 underneath of that. You know, our state7 finance systems are largely broken, from8 California all the way to the east coast,9 because they're not connected to the delivery10 of rigorous standards for all kids. There's11 no real conscious effort that's being made to12 figure that out, and to devise systems that do13 that.14 So I think that, to me, is the sort15 of challenge that we face. That's sort of to16 me a broader way of talking about it, that I17 think will capture the imagination of people,18 looks forward to where we're going, because19 we're talking about common core standards, and20 hopefully will drive the debate in a21 productive way, that doesn't pit one group of22 kids or one group of communities within states2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11101 against another, but starts to think about the2 state's responsibility, at this moment in3 time, since we're not talking about a federal4 educational system, but 50 state educational5 systems, how these states ensure that all of6 their kids have access to rigorous standards7 and the resources necessary to achieve them.8 And again, under this frame, it's9 going to vary from state to state. I mean the10 situation in Arizona, for example, is going to11 be very different than California, Mississippi12 or -- you know, we talk a lot about California13 and New York, and we have to remember. We14 have 50 state finance systems.15 In a lot of places in the country,16 these finance systems are deeply broken and17 have been for a long time, under-resourced,18 under-funded, and they all play out in19 different ways, given the context of the state20 and the redesign that's necessary is going to21 play out differently in each state.22 So I don't think we should be2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11111 micromanaging any of that. But framing out2 the kind of direction we need to go. So I3 would put on the table sort of four things4 that I think we need to talk about, which is5 how do we get states to design what I'll call6 for the moment standards-driven funding7 systems.8 California needs it. You know, it9 doesn't have it. It's got a hodgepodge and a10 kind of a mess. A lot of other states are in11 the same boat, one way or the other.12 There's a number of points I think13 we can talk about under that, about what we14 need to do to recommend that states do that,15 since they provide -- they control the bulk of16 the money that goes into public education, 9017 percent of the resources are controlled by the18 state. That's the key point.19 The second thing I think we have to20 talk about is early education or the second21 thing goes to the issue of efficiency and22 effectiveness. I would actually put that2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11121 under the umbrella of standards. A good2 standards-based finance formula builds into it3 frameworks for the effective and efficient use4 of funding, to deliver standards, to make sure5 that when the states allocate the money or6 control the money or direct the money, it gets7 to districts, and gets down to the classroom8 to support the effective and efficient9 delivery of standards, so the kids can achieve10 those standards.11 The state's got to take12 responsibility for that. Now, you know, we13 may argue there can be some differences about14 whether we need to do that. I think Dennis15 was alluding to this, do they need to worry16 about it in Palo Alto or in Cherry Hill or17 Princeton. They need to worry about it more18 in Chicago or in, you know, some of the poorer19 downstate cities in Illinois.20 So there's some issues that need to21 be talked about that, and then what that looks22 like a little bit around flexibility and2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11131 issues around that. The third thing has got2 to be high quality early education.3 I think we have to take a strong4 stance, that every three and four year-old5 child, particularly if we want to start by6 talking about these at-risk kids and at-risk7 kids in high poverty communities, I'm fine8 with that.9 But the nation has to move to10 getting every three and four year-old in a11 well-planned high quality preschool program,12 linked to standards based again, reform K-12.13 And we can have a -- I'd love to have a14 discussion about the details of that.15 We've done a tremendous amount of16 work on that, building such a system, and we17 have one in place, which -- and there are18 other models around the country for that.19 But that's got to be embedded in20 this standards-driven finance system that I'm21 talking about, because it's really got to22 start at three. Then the last thing is we2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11141 need a new set of federal policies that sort2 of support all this, and that goes from, you3 know, fixing Title I to bigger issues about4 how do you incentivize states, research around5 better costing out methodologies. We've sort6 of stopped that in the last four or five, ten7 years. We aren't doing much of that anymore.8 There's a whole host of things that9 we can talk about under that. But all of it's10 around this bigger challenge, I think, that11 the U.S. faces, which is how do we get all12 kids delivered, so that they have the equal13 opportunity to achieve rich and rigorous14 curriculum content standards, and not just in15 language arts and mathematics, but a variety16 of content areas throughout the nation, and17 through the 50 state systems and the varying,18 calibrated by student need and settings, the19 various settings that we find that are unique20 to our state.21 So that may be one way of thinking22 broader about a lot of the comments that have2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11151 been made here. But you can package that2 under that. We have to give a big vision of3 where we need to go, not just next year, it4 seems to me. But this is about five years. I5 can tell you, working on a school finance a6 long time, it is a long, incremental struggle.7 I mean in states that have made8 progress, it doesn't happen in one fell swoop.9 I was talking about the Pennsylvania10 situation, which was disheartening, because11 people spent eight years getting, building the12 political support to do a little better for13 high needs communities in Pennsylvania,14 Scranton and Harrisburg and rural communities.15 Now that's under challenge, because16 this all happens in state capitols. We have17 to recognize that, that this is going to be a18 long-term incremental effort. It's not going19 to happen in one fell swoop. We, I think,20 have to give the bigger vision of where we21 want the country to go in the area of resource22 finance equity, the way I've described it.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11161 But you know, we've got to lay that2 out, and I think we can start to lay out some3 basic things that we can begin to do, to move4 the states and the nation in that direction.5 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: I'm sorry, Jose.6 We did Jesse already, and then we'll wrap up7 the public session.8 MEMBER TORRES: So I'll be very9 brief, since I'm the only thing standing10 between you and a break, right? I want to11 build a little bit on what Dennis said, and12 that is he talked about the order and how13 complex, and we've been talking about the14 complexity of this.15 So I want to add a little bit more16 complexity in this sense, that in many ways,17 we're in the 7th inning. We're in the middle18 of this journey, and whatever we come up with,19 really I think needs to address the current20 situation of students who are, who have been21 in under-resourced systems along the way, as22 well as how do we address them starting from2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11171 scratch.2 So here's what I mean. In our3 district, we're taking a very hard look at how4 do we increase our graduation rates, and as we5 were looking at teen parents frankly, and6 recognizing that we had enough teen parents to7 build an elementary school with their8 children, we thought well, you know, we need9 to do preschool, but we've got to do something10 about these teen parents, who really changed11 the trajectory of their lives.12 So that resource requirement is13 different than what I need to do for just14 preschool kids. So I guess what I'm15 advocating for is that whatever we do in this16 report would do what people have said, address17 some short-term objectives, but that are18 immediate, that are different in terms of19 scope and amount, if you will, or intensity,20 versus what we'd like to see 20 years down the21 road, in terms of highly effective, quality22 early childhood systems.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11181 And yet be mindful that, I'm going2 to use the baseball analogy, that we'll get3 curves thrown at us. So for example, I don't4 think that, looking at this audience, that5 many of us had Internet safety lessons as we6 were growing up, or cyberbullying prevention7 as we were growing up.8 And yet as a superintendent, I'm9 constantly being asked to add to the10 curriculum, based on the societal needs and11 very important issues that I have to address,12 that we won't even foresee around this table.13 So that would be my comment and my14 recommendation.15 CO-CHAIR EDLEY: We're going to16 take a break, and come back in 15 minutes, 2017 minutes. Let's say we'll come back at 2:3018 and have a closed session, and you will be19 presented with just an extraordinary, coherent20 plan for how we spend the rest of the21 afternoon, and life as well. All right.22 Thanks, everybody.2 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11191 (Whereupon, at 2:10 p.m., the2 meeting was adjourned to closed session.) 34567892 3 NEAL R. GROSS 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 6 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

Archived Information: Equity and Excellence Commission: Transcript of May 23 Commission

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