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NORTHWEST TERRITORIES LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY5th Session Day 44 17th AssemblyHANSARDTuesday, October 28, 2014Pages 5001 – 5032The Honourable Jackie Jacobson, Speaker Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories Members of the Legislative AssemblySpeaker Hon. Jackie Jacobson (Nunakput)______Hon. Glen Abernethy Mrs. Jane Groenewegen Mr. Kevin Menicoche (Great Slave) (Hay River South) (Nahendeh) Minister of Health and Social Services Minister responsible for Mr. Robert Hawkins Hon. J. Michael Persons with Disabilities (Yellowknife Centre) Miltenberger Minister responsible for Seniors (Thebacha) Hon. Jackson Lafferty Government House Leader Hon. Tom Beaulieu Minister of Finance (Monfwi) Minister of Environment and Natural (Tu Nedhe) Deputy Premier Minister of Human Resources Resources Minister of Education, Culture and Minister responsible for the Minister of Transportation Employment NWT Power Corporation Minister of Public Works and Minister responsible for the Workers’ Services Safety and Compensation Commission Mr. Alfred Moses Ms. Wendy Bisaro (Inuvik Boot Lake) (Frame Lake) Hon. Bob McLeod (Yellowknife South) Mr. Michael Nadli Mr. Frederick Blake Premier (Deh Cho) (Mackenzie Delta) Minister of Executive Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Hon. David Ramsay Mr. Robert Bouchard Intergovernmental Relations (Kam Lake) Minister responsible for Women (Hay River North) Minister of Justice Minister of Industry, Tourism Mr. Bob Bromley Hon. Robert C. McLeod and Investment (Inuvik Twin Lakes) Minister responsible for the (Weledeh) Minister of Municipal and Public Utilities Board Community Affairs Mr. Daryl Dolynny Minister of Lands Mr. Norman Yakeleya (Range Lake) Minister responsible for the (Sahtu) NWT Housing Corporation Minister responsible for Youth______Officers Clerk of the Legislative Assembly Ms. Colette LangloisDeputy Clerk Principal Clerk, Principal Clerk, Law Clerks Committees and Corporate and Public Affairs Interparliamentary Affairs Mr. Doug Schauerte Mr. Michael Ball Ms. Gail Bennett Ms. Sheila MacPherson Ms. Malinda Kellett Mr. Glen Rutland ______Box 1320 Yellowknife, Northwest Territories Tel: (867) 669-2200 Fax: (867) 920-4735 Toll-Free: 1-800-661-0784 http://www.assembly.gov.nt.caPublished under the authority of the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories 41) TABLE OF CONTENTSPRAYER...... 5001MINISTERS' STATEMENTS...... 5001106-17(5) – Junior Kindergarten (Lafferty)...... 5001107-17(5) – Tourism Numbers Rise 20 Percent across the Territory (Ramsay)5001108-17(5) – 2014 Forest Fire Season (Miltenberger)...... 5002MEMBERS' STATEMENTS...... 5004Prairie Creek Mine Remediation Securities (Menicoche)...... 5004Relief from Rising Homeownership and Household Costs (Yakeleya)...... 5004Sustainable and Renewable Energy Infrastructure Subsidies (Bromley)...... 5005Power Subsidies for Homeowners and Small Business Owners (Moses)...... 5005Solutions to the High Cost of Living (Bisaro)...... 5006Northern Residents Tax Deduction (Hawkins)...... 5006Addressing Basic Needs in Small Communities (Nadli)...... 5007Creative Solutions to Address High Energy Costs (Bouchard)...... 5007Ground-Coupled Heat Exchange Energy Production (Dolynny)...... 5008Controlling the High Cost of Living (Groenewegen)...... 5008Lowering the Cost of Living in the Mackenzie Delta (Blake)...... 5009RECOGNITION OF VISITORS IN THE GALLERY...... 5009ORAL QUESTIONS...... 5009RETURNS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS...... 5020TABLING OF DOCUMENTS...... 5021SECOND READING OF BILLS...... 5021 Bill 33 – An Act to Amend the Elections and Plebiscites Act, No. 2...... 5021CONSIDERATION IN COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE OF BILLS AND OTHER MATTERS 5022REPORT OF COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE...... 5031ORDERS OF THE DAY...... 5031 October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 6YELLOWKNIFE, NORTHWEST TERRITORIES Tuesday, October 28, 2014 Members Present Hon. Glen Abernethy, Hon. Tom Beaulieu, Ms. Bisaro, Mr. Blake, Mr. Bouchard, Mr. Bromley, Mr. Dolynny, Mrs. Groenewegen, Mr. Hawkins, Hon. Jackie Jacobson, Hon. Jackson Lafferty, Hon. Bob McLeod, Hon. Robert McLeod, Mr. Menicoche, Hon. Michael Miltenberger, Mr. Moses, Mr. Nadli, Hon. David Ramsay, Mr. Yakeleya I believe that the people of the The House met at 1:31 p.m. Northwest Territories agree with this government that our children deserve 2) Prayer the best support possible to give them the right start in life. At the same time, I ---Prayer recognize that people have reservations SPEAKER (Hon. Jackie Jacobson): about the way the program is being Good afternoon, colleagues. Item 2, implemented. The Government of the Ministers’ statements. The honourable Northwest Territories respects those Minister of Education, Culture and concerns, and I want to reassure Employment, Mr. Lafferty. Members and the public today that we are listening carefully to what they are 3) Ministers’ Statements saying. MINISTER'S STATEMENT 106-17(5): We planned for a phased rollout of JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN Junior Kindergarten, Mr. Speaker, to ensure we would have the opportunity to HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: Mr. review and adjust the program Speaker, I want to assure you that I implementation, and that is what we will have been listening carefully to do. I want to be clear with Members that Members during the recent debate before our government goes ahead with around Junior Kindergarten. I also want years two and three of the Junior to assure you that the Government of Kindergarten rollout, we will do a the Northwest Territories remains thorough review of our implementation committed to the principle that focused, plans. targeted support during their first years of life will help our children reach their That review will allow us to assess the full potential and become healthy, success of the program in the 23 educated, successful adults. Our communities already delivering it and to government has introduced Junior address any issues identified Kindergarten, a program designed to achieve just this result, Mr. Speaker, and has already rolled it out successfully during the first months of program to 23 communities. delivery. It will also allow us to hear again from parents, educators, October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 7 communities and other stakeholders on like to share details of this exciting their views and concerns. I commit to growth with Members. returning to the Assembly with the Last year we welcomed over 90,000 results of that review and any required visitors. This is our highest number of changes to the implementation plans visitors in the last decade and an during the coming winter session. increase of 20 percent from the previous Clearly, we need to do more for our year. children, Mr. Speaker, and Junior Visitor spending also rose by 24 percent Kindergarten is the way to do it. But it is to $132.5 million. also clear from the current public debate that our government needs to do more Tourism is this territory’s largest in planning for the continued rollout of renewable resource-based sector and this program, particularly in the area of these numbers demonstrate that this engaging parents, educators and the government and our partners are on the public. right track to promoting the NWT as a spectacular destination. We remain committed to Junior Kindergarten, Mr. Speaker. We still Last year the Department of Industry, believe it is the right program for all Tourism and Investment increased those parents across the NWT who funding to NWT Tourism, the GNWT’s chose JK for their four-year-olds. We will destination marketing organization, by look to move forward in a way that is $1.2 million. The visitor numbers I just sensitive to the concerns of parents, shared with you demonstrate that educators, daycare operators, increased investment in marketing Aboriginal Head Start programs and achieves results. other stakeholders. The two largest factors for this increase Implementing this program will require are aurora viewing and business travel. changes, we need to be clear about The number of aurora viewing visitors that, but the children of the NWT has been on the rise over the last five deserve the support and the advantages years, with a substantial 38 percent that Junior Kindergarten will give them. increase last year. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. The NWT is known as the Aurora MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Capital of the World and clearly this Lafferty. The honourable Minister of message is reaching far beyond our Industry, Tourism and Investment, Mr. borders. Our marketing efforts overseas, Ramsay. particularly in China, Japan and Korea, are paying off, and we expect the MINISTER'S STATEMENT 107-17(5): demand for aurora tourism to continue TOURISM NUMBERS RISE 20 to increase. PERCENT ACROSS THE The number of business travellers also TERRITORY grew by an unprecedented 47 percent HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Mr. Speaker, and the GNWT is well-positioned to in the 2013-2014 fiscal year, there was strike while the iron is hot. As I shared a tremendous increase in the number of with you last week, the NWT Economic visitors and visitor spending in the Opportunities Strategy recommended Northwest Territories, and today I would we establish a conference bureau to October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 8 support business travel. We took action This year a total of 3.4 million hectares on this recommendation and signed a of forested land were affected by 385 contribution agreement with NWT wildland fires. This was composed of six Tourism to establish this bureau last reported fires in the Inuvik region, 32 in June. the Sahtu region, 52 in the Deh Cho NWT Tourism now provides support to region, 143 in the North Slave region conference planners looking to host and 152 in the South Slave region. An events in this territory. Not only will this estimated $60 million was spent fighting strengthen our business travel sector fires in the 2014 forest fire season. but it will provide spin-off benefits for all In keeping with established policies, sectors, including transportation action was taken on 126, or 33 percent, suppliers, hotels, restaurants, artisans of reported fires to protect values at risk. and tour operators in all regions. NWT Wildland fire responses were required Tourism has already assisted on eight large complex fires that had the conference planners who are interested potential to affect communities and in holding conferences here and is other major infrastructure. working to attract new ones. The 25-year average annual fire load is We are also working with our partners 262 fires affecting 528,000 hectares of and lodge operators to strengthen those northern forest lands. areas of tourism that have experienced Core support to the fire program this a decline, such as the number of fishing year included six helicopters and four air visitors from the United States. Through tanker groups from both territorial and better research and the launch of a other Canadian aircraft contracting marketing campaign, we are working to companies. Several short-term casual improve these numbers. helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft were Mr. Speaker, last year’s numbers bode hired through the fire season to well for the future of tourism in the NWT, supplement the core program. and ITI is dedicated to seeing all sectors Additional tanker groups were imported and all communities thrive. With a from other provinces through the Mutual dedicated industry and focused Aid Resources Sharing Agreement, or strategies in place, tourism will continue MARS Agreement, to assist with the to provide great economic benefits for heavy fire load. the NWT and contribute to a diversified Twenty-eight type 1 government and and sustainable economy for our contract wildland fire crews were located residents. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. across the NWT to provide initial attack MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. capacity. Another 175 seasonal and Ramsay. The honourable Minister of permanent personnel provided direct Environment and Natural Resources, support to the fire program. Mr. Miltenberger. Several additional national resources were brought on over the fire season to MINISTER'S STATEMENT 108-17(5): help with ongoing fires and initial attack 2014 FOREST FIRE SEASON during severe burning conditions. HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: Mr. Four hundred eighty-five EFFs, or extra Speaker, the 2014 forest fire season is firefighters, were hired in 2014 for officially over. October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 9 training purposes or in support of fire drought conditions that lasted much of operations. This included the initial the 2014 wildland fire season. EFFs hired at the start of the season Given the extreme conditions, limited and the additional training camps held in resources and large complex fires, Mr. various communities to bring more EFFs Speaker, I would consider this a on board to cope with the length and successful fire season in that there was severity of the season. no loss of life, no significant injuries and Four hundred sixty-eight type 1 wildland no significant damage done to any firefighting personnel were imported community. from outside the NWT under the Mutual As well as 3.4 million hectares of our Aid Resources Sharing Agreement. northern forests affected, there were, These imports consisted of crews, unfortunately, some structural losses, aircraft and overhead resources. These Mr. Speaker. In early July a home on crews were composed of eight the Hoarfrost River was lost due to fire. Canadian provinces and the State of High winds and extreme fire conditions Alaska. caused the fire to switch directions and In addition, nine incident management destroy a home and some outbuildings teams consisting of five to 15 people on the Hoarfrost River. were necessary to coordinate the fire Again, during the weekend of August response. There were five from Ontario, 16th, strong southwest winds and two from Alberta, one from British explosive fire behavior conditions Columbia and one from Nova caused a fire to jump Moraine Bay and Scotia/New Brunswick. resulted in the loss of the Moraine Point Several single resources were also Lodge on the west side of Great Slave imported to assist with the heavy Lake. While the Moraine Point Lodge workload. These included planning and outbuildings were lost, the fire did specialists, fire behavior specialists, not reach the commercial fish warehouse personnel, two community processing plant on Moraine Bay. protection specialist teams and five air While the above losses were significant, attack officers. we must not overlook the effects and Training for the 2014 fire season losses traditional harvesters are bearing included seasonal refresher training of from this past season: approximately 15 type 1 crews, S-100 basic firefighter cabins including a community complex training, fire line leadership, fuel system at Lake 690 north of Fort Providence, training, and fire reporting training for and trapping areas removed from use fire clerks, warehouse staff and duty for five to seven years while the land officers as required. recovers. Our government expects to As Members are aware, this was a assist a number of harvesters under our particularly challenging season for fire Harvesters’ Fire Damage Assistance crews. The NWT experienced long-term Program. above average seasonal conditions Fires of note in 2014 include the Kakisa including above average seasonal complex, which began in late May. This temperatures and below average fire was very difficult to contain and precipitation. This resulted in extreme spread to 100,000 hectares. The fire October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 10 caused the voluntary evacuation of the caused the voluntary evacuation of community in July and help from several residents along the Yellowknife Highway crews from Alberta, NWT, and a number of public safety updates. Saskatchewan, Yukon and Ontario The fire burned approximately 15,000 managing this complex over a two- hectares. month period. Mr. Speaker, over the coming months, Due to the community’s significant work ENR will be engaging stakeholders to FireSmarting around Kakisa and the determine stakeholder values and commendable efforts of the firefighters priorities. FireSmart and value and air tankers, there were no structural protection is part of our annual losses and residents were able to return comprehensive review. The department to their community with little to no will also administer applications for damage. compensation to renewable resource The Birch Lake complex, composed of harvesters with re-establishing their over six fires between Behchoko and livelihood under the Harvesters’ Fire Fort Providence, resulted in periodic Damage Assistance Program for closure of Highway No. 3 mainly due to possible replacement of lost cabins or extreme smoke conditions. Most of the for clearing trails affected by wildfires. work on this fire consisted of the The department conducts maintenance construction of dozer guards on the activities for air tanker and fire bases, south side of the fire to restrict growth fixed detection sites, fuel systems, the towards Fort Providence and the Forest lightning detection network, the Management Agreement areas. Four automatic fire weather station network different incident management teams and radio communications. from the NWT and Ontario managed Environment and Natural Resources this complex over a two-month period. also completed construction of the The Birch Lake complex is estimated to Enterprise fixed detection tower which be 650,000 hectares in size. will be operational in the summer of The Reid Lake complex started from a 2015. fire in the Consolation Lake area. The Under normal seasonal fall weather, fire was first actioned by fire crews to cooler and wetter conditions would wet protect values in the area. It eventually the deeper forest layers and reset threatened values in the Highway No. 4 drought values. Without sufficient fall Ingraham Trail area and caused the rain as well as significant over-winter closure of the Reid Lake Territorial Park precipitations, drought conditions may for a few weeks while crews were persist into the 2015 fire season. stationed at the campground. Incident management teams from Ontario, Nova I would also like to take this opportunity Scotia and the NWT managed the to extend a heartfelt thank you to the complex over a six-week period from men and women from the Northwest mid-June through to the end of July. The Territories, across Canada and Alaska fire is 365,000 hectares in size. who fought fires on the ground and in the air this summer. They worked ZF-085, the fire that was approximately tirelessly to protect us, our homes, our 30 kilometres from Yellowknife and communities and our values during the seven kilometres from Highway No. 3, October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 11 toughest fire season on record. They governments, regulatory authorities, faced intense, often grueling conditions, government departments and the and I am very proud of the general public participated in the review professionalism and courage they of the proposed mine. Those views and displayed in our time of need. Thank concerns were considered by the you, Mr. Speaker. independent board before approving the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. project. Miltenberger. Item 3, Members’ Canadian Zinc requested the Mackenzie statements. The honourable Member for Valley Land and Water Board adjust the Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche. timing schedule for the posting of security under its operating permit to 4) Members’ Statements reflect the actual timing of construction activities and planned mining MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON operations. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, PRAIRIE CREEK MINE Canadian Zinc has committed that they REMEDIATION SECURITIES won’t start development authorized by MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very operating permits until this security is in much, Mr. Speaker. My colleagues here place. It’s important to point out that today have worked hard in organizing a Canadian Zinc Mines is not requesting theme day, but it’s important for me to any change to the total amount of respond to issues raised in this House security and it’s not disputing the about securities to the Minister of Lands security amount. in respect to Canadian Zinc’s Prairie The Prairie Creek Mine will be an Creek Mine. important source of new jobs and wealth It is important that our government for people in my riding and bring new ensure that adequate security for economic activity that will benefit the reclamation is in place before the residents of Nahendeh through proposed mine starts its activities. infrastructure initiatives and spin-off These securities are important to protect activities. These activities will not just be the health and safety of our public and limited to Nahendeh but will also benefit the environment. Securities are the whole of the Northwest Territories as important tools for government to new resource royalties will support address potential for environmental strong economic development for our damage. At the same time, sustainable territory, help diversify our population land use can support strong and and strengthen our economic future. responsible economic development in Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. the territory. It can bring new MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. employment and resources that will Menicoche. The honourable Member for have real benefits for all residents of the Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya. Northwest Territories. The proposed Prairie Creek Mine has been subject to the rigorous regulatory environmental assessment process under the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act. Aboriginal October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 12MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON But there’s a catch. The barge didn’t RELIEF FROM RISING make it up the Mackenzie, so food and HOMEOWNERSHIP other goods will have to be flown into AND HOUSEHOLD COSTS the region, and further down the valley, MR. YAKELEYA: Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. extra costs will fall on consumers when Money ain’t for nothing, cheques for they fly it in. free. That’s according to Dire Straits. My colleague from Hay River, Mr. Whether it be those lyrics or the band’s Bouchard, raised a good point about name, Mr. Speaker, we’re all, indeed, in dredging the Hay River. Why aren’t we dire straits across the Northwest seeing NTCL barges bringing goods and Territories when it comes to the cost of supplies down the Mackenzie River in living. the spring when the river is running All the great minds in the world should high, instead of waiting until the fall be able to come to the conclusion of when the levels are so low? why is the cost of living in the Northwest High gas prices, low oil prices and Territories so high. Some of the inflated costs and climate change are question my constituents are asking: putting extra pressure on our household When will we catch a break? When will budgets. Half the household earnings the middleclass or the elders catch a are spent on keeping the house warm. break? When will we in the North, especially in Well, Mr. Speaker, when one of the the small communities, get a break? Members is planning to visit the Sahtu, I’ll have questions for the Minister. here’s some of the food prices we pay. Thank you. In Fort Good Hope two litres of milk costs $5.49, and it’s a little more in MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Tulita at $5.99, and in Norman Wells it’s Yakeleya. Member for Weledeh, Mr. $6.59. If you’re going to shop in Deline, Bromley. a dozen eggs will cost you a little more MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON than the Independent store at $3.99 a SUSTAINABLE AND dozen in Yellowknife. If you’re going to RENEWABLE ENERGY go in the bush, you want some bannock. INFRASTRUCTURE SUBSIDIES If you get a can of Klik, that will cost you $5.49. Right there you can see putting MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. meat on the table in the Sahtu costs you Speaker. Residents of the North are a few more dollars than in the capital of clearly burdened with astronomical Yellowknife. costs: power, heat, food, and gas for cars, ATVs and snowmobiles, What if you decide to live off the land transportation to other communities. and be a trapper? Well, it’s not an easy Nearly everything costs significantly life, Mr. Speaker, but it’s a good life, more here than elsewhere in Canada especially when you have to go on the and the world. For many this burden is land and pay for gas, like in Colville manageable. They make a good wage, Lake at $2.99 a litre. Perhaps we’ll see often two in the same family. However, more people going back to the dog this is not the case for everyone, and a teams. significant number of Northerners October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 13 struggle to make ends meet, often jobs that will have positive effects on losing the battle. Our social service and every community at every level. income support statistics bear this out. But what’s required, Mr. Speaker? A key Government has gotten into the habit of feature of this approach, however, must responding with millions of dollars in be community participation that accrues subsidies, particularly in the area of benefits to communities. To achieve power generation. While attractive this, we must invest in community- politically in the short term, subsidies owned distributed energy systems or have not addressed the underlying energy systems… systemic problems yielding ever-rising Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent costs and causing the true costs to conclude my statement. associated with diesel power generation to be hidden. ---Unanimous consent granted For us, this has meant ever-larger debts MR. BROMLEY: Thank you. A key and requests to big daddy to increase feature of this approach must be our borrowing limits. Key funds community participation that accrues desperately needed for services are benefits to communities. To achieve vaporized with ever-more-expensive this, we must invest in community- fossil fuels for electricity generation or owned energy systems if we want to heating or food. build local economies, address cost of living and restore the environment. The Environmental and social costs mount time for a serious renewable both directly and indirectly. We must commitment has come. If not now, stop this policy of failure and begin when? If not us, who? Mahsi. moving towards an economically and environmentally sustainable model. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Bromley. The Member for Inuvik Boot From now on, if any new energy Lake, Mr. Moses. subsidies are contemplated, they must be matched by an equal and rigorously MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON justified investment in renewable energy POWER SUBSIDIES FOR infrastructure for heat and power. In HOMEOWNERS addition, we need to begin a schedule AND SMALL BUSINESS and steady replacement of current OWNERS subsidies with the provision of energy MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. infrastructure that stabilizes and reduces We all know there’s a high cost of living costs and that through its here in the Northwest Territories, and implementation provides local and the further north you get and the more lasting jobs in every community. isolated you get in the communities, A concerted and focused policy is those prices go up. The high cost of essential to address our costly, living in Inuvik is causing many damaging and undermining reliance on hardships that I have never seen before diesel. This shift will pay dividends in or that residents of Inuvik have never cleaner energy, reduced costs across seen before. our economic sectors, a reduced cost of Last week we heard in the House that living and many new long-term jobs, even though the price of oil has dropped October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 14 throughout the world, we don’t see that I will have questions today. We’re reflected here in the Northwest subsidizing the Power Corp, we’re Territories, specifically for home heating subsidizing public housing units, why fuel. Why isn’t this regulated? Why don’t not the homeowner? Why not the we get people bringing the fuel up to the people that do contribute to the Northwest Territories, buying it at a community and the people that have cheaper cost? We know that they have called Inuvik home their whole lives? to pay to get the fuel up here, but yet we I’ll have questions for the Minister of don’t regulate at what cost they’re Finance later today. Thank you. buying it at. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. This government also subsidizes the Moses. The Member for Frame Lake, heating fuel for public housing, and from Ms. Bisaro. 2010-11, when this government subsidized heating fuel in public housing MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON at the cost of about $6.5 million, and SOLUTIONS TO THE HIGH COST then just recently in this fiscal year, just OF LIVING over $9 million. More recently, we just MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. heard an announcement from this We’re talking a lot about the cost of government that we’re subsidizing the living today. So what makes up Northwest Territories Power Corporation Northerners’ cost of living? Well, food, to the tune of $20 million. I ask this water, vehicles and the gas to put in it, government, what about the lodging, taxes, power, heat, phone, homeowner? What about the small insurance, clothing, entertainment, TV, business operator? What about those Internet; it’s a long list. But what can we people trying to make a living who are do about our costs? Some are easily contributing to the economy? controlled; others, not so much. From 2011 when the cost of fuel was I have some suggestions about what we $1.24 to $1.70 just recently in Inuvik that can do. We can increase the Seniors the homeowner has to pay, this is Home Heating Fuel Subsidy. It hasn’t causing hardships on our people, on our seen an increase in four years, yet we residents and people who have made all know the cost of fuel has gone up Inuvik home their whole lives. With the every year. We can apply concerted high cost of heating oil, then you add in pressure to the federal government to the high cost of power, you add in there increase the basic northern residents the most recent increase to property tax tax deduction, which would increase our to residents of Inuvik, and it’s causing residents’ tax refunds. We must many hardships, as I’ve said, in the increase the number of low-cost or community of Inuvik. It’s causing some public housing units for low-income people to go on income assistance. Not wage earners. We can apply concerted only that, we’re seeing a lot of pressure again to the federal foreclosures on homes in Inuvik. We’re government to change the Nutrition also seeing a lot of homes that are North Program so it’s more effective for going up for sale. This high cost of fuel NWT residents and really actually does and high cost of living in Inuvik is putting reduce food costs. We can make even double-income families at risk. changes to our taxation regime for October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 15 agriculture land, lower the mill rate to This government has danced around the encourage farming and increase our issue of lowering our cost of living local food supply, in effect eliminating or without any in-depth engagement on it. reducing our reliance on imported foods. We have thrown subsidies at it, instead We can put more money and support of taking action to make inroads in how into community garden programs for the we live our lives. It’s time we changed same reasons. We can provide training our thinking or our plans or we will to residents to develop sustainable local subsidize ourselves into debt. Thank food programs, another way to lower you, Mr. Speaker. food costs. We can bring back the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Community Freezer Program for storage Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. of country foods to feed the community; Hawkins. more lower food costs. We can put a greater focus, or we can start a MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON campaign for healthy foods, provide NORTHERN RESIDENTS TAX incentives for residents to buy healthy, DEDUCTION natural foods instead of processed food MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. stuffs. We can increase meal programs Speaker. Today I rise with the in schools. Children will be healthier and opportunity to talk about the cost of food costs for families will be reduced. living as well. What’s important to say is Then there is power, Mr. Speaker. That I remember the days when people is a big cost and a big problem. This talked about families with one government has spent millions exploring paycheque. I can’t remember how long power generation and transmission, ago that was. Any family with one both concepts now to be abandoned. paycheque must be an amazing money Instead of spending those millions, we manager to this day. Because I will tell should have been investing far more you, nowadays two paycheque families heavily in alternative energies, for are having a tough go at it just getting example, and the technology exists, so through their day to day. why do we not have any community As always, I want to give thanks to my biomass power or heating systems in favorite champions out there in the place yet? Where is the NTPC government, that’s called the Bureau of conservation campaign that we heard so Stats, because they have provided me much about, the one that will help us these facts that I will remind the reduce our power bills? government of. So I can say that in Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent 2014, August that has just passed, to conclude my statement. 22,200 were employed. Out of almost ---Unanimous consent granted 32,000 residents that would be normally MS. BISARO: Many of the things I working, that is still a terrible number. have mentioned are small things, but But what is ironic about this is about a either on their own or added together 1,500 dip from 2013. My colleague Ms. they can contribute to a lower cost of Bisaro just pointed on the area that I living. really wanted to narrow in on, the northern residents tax deduction. October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 16You can have all the tax breaks in the MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON world, they can give you anything they ADDRESSING BASIC NEEDS want, but the fact is they are useless if IN SMALL COMMUNITIES you don’t make any money. All tax MR. NADLI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. breaks do is just make people feel good, Today our communities are struggling but if you don’t have a paycheque, you and challenged with the cost of living. have nothing to deduct it against. Cost of living regarding the basic needs It has been years since the federal of food, shelter and, for the most part, is government even acknowledged our demoralizing in terms of the price. It northern tax deduction under a saps people’s pride and longing for residency issue and they bumped it up independence. The price of basics such ever so slightly. As it stands today, it is as meat, fish, chicken, vegetables and approximately $16.50 per person per fruits are way high. The goods are day. That goes down a complicated packaged and processed down south taxation line which I will stay out of, but and either trucked or flown to the fact is the person can claim up to communities. If you are fortunate and $6,222 a year. Again, that’s only useful are one of 50 percent of the people that as a deduction if you have a paycheque. work in communities, you can buy Again, families with a single paycheque, groceries locally. If you live in public how they do it, I don’t know. Two family housing, you are charged your rent to paycheques are struggling through. the amount of $70 per month or, if you What is time, and certainly necessary in work, 30 percent of your wages. It is not this particular occasion, is that our surprising that in smaller communities Premier should be furious about how people are more inclined to supplement low it is. It has not kept pace with the their livelihood by hunting, fishing or cost of living, it has not been indexed in trapping, but, of course, if you have a any way, and at this point it is more of skidoo, boat and the necessary an annoyance to fill out on your tax form equipment to go out on the land. than it certainly is seen as a benefit. As the sun sets in the communities, I encourage our Premier to start getting elders, youth and the unemployed are a little fury and fight back on this stuff. grateful to have lived through another Now he should probably be joining arms day in the community, and they put their with our sister territories and fighting faith and hope that this government will Ottawa about this broken system. An finally do something about the cost of everyday family needs a break, not to living. be broken the way it is being treated MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Nadli. through this cost of living process. The Member for Hay River North, Mr. I look forward to the Premier finally Bouchard. doing something on this very important issue. Thank you. MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON CREATIVE SOLUTIONS TO MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. ADDRESS Hawkins. Member for Deh Cho, Mr. HIGH ENERGY COSTS Nadli. MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Next week we will be having October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 17 the Energy Charrette. The charrette is replace foods that they’re purchasing meant to look at the cost of power and currently at the grocery store and costs of energy in the Northwest reducing those costs. Territories, probably one of the biggest We need to work at this problem at costs that most of our constituents several different angles. currently have. The government is touting this as the opportunity for us to MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. look at all the solutions for the cost of Bouchard. The Member for Range Lake, living, but I’m very concerned. Mr. Dolynny. We had an Energy Charrette a couple of MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON years ago, with limited successes. We GROUND-COUPLED HEAT talked about a power supply system that EXCHANGE would link all our grids together, which ENERGY PRODUCTION we know is now ineffective cost-wise, as MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. well as the lack of our borrowing limit. Speaker. For the most part, when The other issue such as gas prices is people think about the cost of living, always on the constituents’ minds, and they gravitate to the high price of energy one of those factors is our gas taxes. they pay. This would be a normal Last week I was asking questions about reaction given that we in the NWT face the reduction of that tax. We should be some of the highest energy costs in the looking at that type of stuff. modern world. Admittedly, when asked The other area a couple of the Members how to fix this, I’m sure many would have talked about in studying taxation is point to such alternatives as wind and northern residency limiting from the solar as a way to wean ourselves off federal government. We know that this fossil fuel. has not changed very much. We see in These alternatives do have merit on the south where they allow cross-border displacing carbon emission by lowering shopping to increase the volume so that diesel consumption, yet from an the people down there can live cheaper. economic or commercial viability What have Northerners had for a tax perspective, you would be lucky to increase from the federal government? recover your capital costs within 15 to Very little. 20 years, and by then you’re almost at Obviously, in this Energy Charrette I the point of replacement, so the vicious hope we’re talking about conservation cycle repeats itself. as well. We need to learn to do more To be clear, I’m not saying we shouldn’t with less. We need to figure out the way make some strategic investments in that our costs of living are high. A lot of alternative energies as part of our the discussions lately have been about Energy Strategy, and I am supportive of these small houses. What are we doing decreasing our diesel use and carbon with them? What’s the potential for that? emission, but we need to realize that I have several constituents that are with such a costly capital investment, we talking about trying to be off the grid as are no further ahead of lowering our much as they can. We obviously know cost of energy to the consumer, and this in the Hay River area there are a lot of needs to be our target. people involved in agriculture, trying to October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 18What is the answer? Well, if you want to ground-coupled heat exchange or air-to- wait, as Cabinet suggests, for next soil exchange, yet the principles of month’s costly Energy Charrette and for these processes all produce the same their report and then a committee report effect, which is to offer viable and to that and then a Cabinet strategy and economic alternatives in conjunction then, finally, an action plan, you’ll soon with lower diesel consumption. th realize that the life of the 17 Assembly With the government clearly out of ideas will have expired, which is very as we embark on yet another Energy convenient. Or we can immediately or Charrette, many Northerners hope this economically unlock the power within. is just not another attempt to shelve at But before I give you one solution, which nothingness. We need economic and is staring us in the face, let’s ask some viable options for energy cost today, and questions. we need real solutions we can all afford. How do we better harness our own Let’s hope the Cabinet is listening. production and storage of energy? How Thank you, Mr. Speaker. well do we manage and produce our MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. own diesel power? Finally, how much Dolynny. Member for Hay River South, unused energy goes up the stovepipe at Mrs. Groenewegen. our diesel power plants? Mr. Speaker, if I have you curious, this continues down MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON the rabbit hole. CONTROLLING THE HIGH COST After doing a forensic look at more than OF LIVING the $300 million worth of NTPC MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Thank you, infrastructure, its production, its capacity Mr. Speaker. No one who lives in the and its geolocation, there was one Northwest Territories would deny that conclusion that emerged that will lower the cost of living in the Northwest our energy production at the source: Territories is something that we need to recapture unused energy and concern ourselves with and where the economically lower our cost of energy in government should be investing wisely non-hydro communities, and ultimately and prudently to help the overall have a trickle effect for all Northerners. mitigation of that cost of living. The solution: The earth is a battery of I think, as a government, we’ve talked heat storage potential. about all the many subsidies that we Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent contribute to try to help people with the to conclude my statement. cost of living, but I think we need to look ---Unanimous consent granted for ways to empower people to make choices to control, as much as they can, MR. DOLYNNY: What this means is we their cost of living as well. have the capacity to recapture NTPC diesel-produced stovepipe heat, I know maybe this is a broken record, dissipate this heat into the ground, store but I had proposed in this House a it in earth tubes and reverse the energy number of years ago that our in the winter months via utilidor government could be doing more to exchange to heat homes and buildings. empower people with choices. People This process has many names, such as feel trapped. That’s the problem, is that people feel trapped in the utilities and October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 19 the heating and the cost of all the day- MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON to-day things that Ms. Bisaro listed off. LOWERING THE COST OF Many of those do come with personal LIVING choices, as well, and sometimes I think, IN THE MACKENZIE DELTA if I may say, we also need to manage MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I our expectations a little bit as well. represent one of the second-most- Sometimes people do not attempt to live expensive ridings in the Northwest within their means. Territories, next to yourself that is. Mr. Speaker, my clock is running out. I My constituents pay the most in this can’t believe that was two and a half territory for home heating fuel, diesel minutes, was it? It must have been set and gasoline. Diesel in Tsiigehtchic, for wrong. Was it? Okay, I’ll seek example, is $2.05 per litre, which is unanimous consent to conclude my subsidized, by the way. Gasoline is statement, but I feel like I just started $1.92 per litre. talking. Thank you. We’re actually lucky because the price ---Unanimous consent granted went down by 12 cents. So you can MRS. GROENEWEGEN: I’m going to imagine how much our people are go back and check Hansard and see paying up in the Beaufort-Delta and how many words I actually got in in that Mackenzie Delta. two and a half minutes. Groceries are another thing that’s the People need to manage their most expensive. For one litre of milk in expectations. We need to empower Tsiigehtchic, we pay $7.99. For 10 people to give them choices and options kilograms of flour, $39.99, and that’s the of how they can control their cost of three communities I represent. Eggs, living. People also need to take personal $6.99 for a dozen. Bacon is anywhere responsibility. from $8.99 to $26 depending on what You know, I’m probably not going to be type we get. With an employment rate of the most popular MLA in the Northwest 35 percent, you can tell how our people Territories for saying this right now, but are struggling in the northern when we talk about the cost of living in communities. all these communities, wouldn’t it be an One of our priorities is to lower the cost interesting exercise to see in every of living. This is something that we really community of the Northwest Territories need to focus on within our last year how much people have to spend on here as the 17th Legislative Assembly. cigarettes, alcohol, drugs and gambling. I look forward to what the government Thank you, Mr. Speaker. has in store and I’ll have questions later MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mrs. for the Minister. Thank you. Groenewegen. Member for Mackenzie MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Blake. Delta, Mr. Blake. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Ms. Bisaro. October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 205) Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery 6) Oral QuestionsMS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. QUESTION 451-17(5): I don’t often get a chance to recognize GNWT COST OF LIVING my one hardworking staff, my PROGRAMS constituency assistant, Ms. Amanda MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mallon, and it’s a really special day for I’d like to ask the Premier, the her. Not quite as special as Mrs. honourable Mr. McLeod, some Groenewegen assistant’s day, but questions on the cost of living. happy birthday, Amanda. What is this government’s plan as we ---Applause move forward to lower the cost of living MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Ms. in the Northwest Territories? Thank you. Bisaro. Mr. Dolynny. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Blake. MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. The honourable Premier, Mr. McLeod. Speaker. I’d like to introduce to you and HON. BOB MCLEOD: Thank you, Mr. through you a resident of Range Lake Speaker. This government is doing a sitting with us today here, Mr. David tremendous amount to reduce the cost Wasylciw. Mr. Wasylciw just launched a of living. We subsidize the cost of living brand new resource website today to the tune of about $200 million a year. called openNWT.ca. Congratulations, We are organizing an Energy Charrette David. to give more personal responsibility to ---Applause the people so that they can become MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. more independent through energy Dolynny. Mr. Bromley. generation, and we are also investing in infrastructure as we find that’s the best MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. way to reduce the cost of living. Thank Speaker. I’d also like to recognize a you. couple of hardworking constituency assistants, both of whom are residents MR. BLAKE: As I mentioned in my of Weledeh. Of course my CA, Bob statement, we pay the highest costs for Wilson, a long-time businessman and fuel, diesel and gasoline in our region. involved in many aspects of the I’d like to ask the Premier, is that community with the city and so on. Also, because we’re trucking this into our Amanda Mallon, another Weledeh territory? Would it be cheaper if we were resident involved in many aspects of our to barge this into our territory? Thank community in the NWT. A big welcome you. to David Wasylciw as well. Mahsi. HON. BOB MCLEOD: Of course, it MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. would be cheapest to barge or buy it on Bromley. Thank you for taking in our the offshore and bring it in by tanker and proceedings here today. Welcome to the deliver it by barge to the communities. House. Obviously, if you truck, the more times Item 6, acknowledgements. Item 7, oral you handle the molecules, the more questions. The Member for Mackenzie expensive it is. We also, in a large part Delta, Mr. Blake. of the communities, can only bring it in once a year. Thank you. October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 21MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. very important for the small McLeod. Mr. Menicoche. communities. The fuel is delivered once a year. They use it for hunting and QUESTION 452-17(5): trapping, they have to use it to heat their FUEL PRICES IN SMALL homes, especially in the wintertime, and COMMUNITIES these are fixed costs. MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very I’m asking the Minister: Will this much, Mr. Speaker. I think last week, or government consider some kind of the week before, I was raising questions special subsidy, because the local with the Premier, but I would like to ask prices are falling, they are almost down the Minister of Transportation about the to $1.04 in Alberta and I know that cost of delivering fuel. eventually it will hit Yellowknife and our There is a global oil glut in the world and smaller communities that they will be it’s reducing gas prices across Canada. reducing the costs. I would like to know, Why aren’t those gas prices being people in the small communities are reduced in the Northwest Territories? trapped and once the gas prices and Thank you. fuel prices start declining, can this government do something to help our MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. people? Thank you. Menicoche. Minister of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Mr. Ramsay. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: The revolving Oh sorry, Minister of Transportation, Mr. fund that I spoke of is a fund that is put Beaulieu. out by the government. It is, again, intended to provide fuel to communities HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. that otherwise would not be able to have Speaker. Actually, under the any fuel delivered into the community. Department of Public Works and Within that revolving fund there is no Services we have a petroleum products ability for this department or the division. That division is created with a petroleum division to subsidize any of Petroleum Products Revolving Fund. the communities that they deliver the We have a certain amount of money fuel to. Thank you. that we use to buy fuel in communities where it is not feasible for anybody else MR. MENICOCHE: The next logical to go into the community to sell fuel. We question is, actually, why not? Why can’t take communities in this Member’s we subsidize these people? The people riding, like Jean Marie, Nahanni, Wrigley in small communities deserve to be and Trout, and in those communities no considered for the fuel prices being fixed other supplier wishes to go in there and and there must be a way to change it. supply fuel because it’s not feasible. We Thank you. are bringing it in at cost and the cost to HON. TOM BEAULIEU: The reason is distribute and that is it. We can charge because we have the revolving fund and anywhere from 95 percent of what it that if we were to subsidize one costs us to 105 percent, but we try to be community, we would have to actually at 100 percent as much as possible. take if from another community. For the Thank you. most part, as I indicated, each of the MR. MENICOCHE: When it comes to communities we try to come in at 100 the cost of living, the purchase of fuel is percent of the actual costs for us to October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 22 deliver that product to a home. In some subsidies into the particular fund, then communities, the smaller communities we would have to return to the House to we have tried to go below 100 percent request that that be something that we cost, and in fact, where the subsidy is put into the fund. not picked up by anyone else, like some MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. of the larger communities, at 100 Beaulieu. The Member for Sahtu, Mr. percent will allow us to bring some of Yakeleya. the higher cost fuel prices down, but not lower than 95 percent of the cost. Thank QUESTION 453-17(5): you. INCOME SUPPORT PROGRAMS MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. TO ADDRESS ECONOMIC Beaulieu. Final, short supplementary, SLOWDOWNS Mr. Menicoche. MR. YAKELEYA: Thank you, Mr. MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very Speaker. It’s not all doom and gloom in much, Mr. Speaker. Robbing Peter to the Sahtu, but some people are pay Paul I think is what the Minister struggling. Whether a young family in said, but I don’t think that that’s the kind Deline, an elder in Colville Lake or a of solution that the government should single mother in Fort Good Hope, provide to the people in the smaller people are having to pay more to put communities. food on the table and more to warm I’d like to ask the Minister one more their houses this winter. time: We just saw government write off Will the Minister of Education, Culture $20 million for electrical power rate. and Employment tell us about the Why can he not write off some of that increase of people relying on income money for the smaller communities that assistance since the drop of oil prices have fixed and locked-in prices? has slowed the economy in the Sahtu? HON. TOM BEAULIEU: If we were to MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. change the Petroleum Products Yakeleya. The Minister of Education, Revolving Fund, we would have to come Culture and Employment, Mr. Lafferty. back to the House. This is a fund that’s HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: Mahsi, approved in the House to be able to Mr. Speaker. We are fully aware of the subsidize or actually deliver fuel to high cost of living in the communities communities where no other individual and the income support does reflect on or private enterprise wishes to venture that as well. ECE is working to enhance into. We, as a government, look forward benefits for clothing, food and other to any community or any organization or incidental expenses to ensure that industry that wishes to take over clients receive adequate benefits to delivering fuel. We do it because meet their needs and that we are communities need to have fuel; current with the high cost of living in the communities need to have gas. We do communities. We are currently spending it, and we do it at cost. upwards of $16 million in income Like I said, there’s a little bit of flexibility support alone, and there is also a there, but beyond that there is no seniors heating subsidy of $1.8 million, flexibility in this fund. If we were to build and the list goes on. Those are the subsidies that we provide to the October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 23 communities, and we also keep in mind Social Services. But there are various the high cost of living as well. programs within our income support MR. YAKELEYA: I know the area, whether it be early childhood or honourable Minister doesn’t set the oil other departmental programs such as prices, but it’s having a huge impact. emergency measures when it comes to Let’s shift our attention to the working MACA or the Department of Health and poor or the single-income families. Social Services or my Department of Education, Culture and Employment. It Why would income support only grant is an interagency responsibility and also one purchase order to a mother of twins working very closely with the community when clearly she is trying to feed two organizations that deal with those children? Can the Minister of Education, matters at the community level as well. Culture and Employment explain to this Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. House how a front-line worker could deny the basic support for infants in MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. these remote communities? Lafferty. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya. HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: With our programming there are upwards of MR. YAKELEYA: Thank you, Mr. 1,600 caseloads within the Northwest Speaker. Would the Minister of Territories and on average 3,300 people Education, Culture and Employment access income assistance. We’re commit to this House that when he mindful of those individuals with meets with his federal/provincial dependents, especially if there are counterparts that the high cost of living twins, even young twins. Those are in the Northwest Territories will be a some of the areas we closely monitor priority item that he can discuss with the with client service officers. We need to other provincial leaders as something have those individuals access our that needs to have the full attention of income support programming because Canada, to raise this issue to know that it’s there for them. We do continue to this issue here is important to people explore those areas and having a and Members of this House? program identified as part of education HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: Mr. awareness on to the communities as Speaker, that is exactly what’s well. happening. I’m just one part of MR. YAKELEYA: Can the Minister of government that addresses this with my Education tell us what emergency federal counterparts. My colleagues measures are available for those who around the table here also stress the might be in between jobs or students importance of the high cost of living. without work? What can they do to When it comes to remoteness in our ensure they have a roof over their heads jurisdiction, we’re very remote with a this winter and dealing with the high cost high cost of living in our communities. At of living? times federal Ministers and federal representatives are not fully aware of HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: It all our situation. So it’s always a learning depends on the individual. If they are curve when there are changes in the younger than 19, then we have to work federal government, but it’s a challenge with the Department of Health and that we always put at the table and we October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 24 will continue to do so. Mahsi, Mr. to investing millions of dollars so that we Speaker. can look at alternative and renewable MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. forms of energy and any ways that we Lafferty. Mr. Bromley. can empower the clientele that use energy in the North so that they can find QUESTION 454-17(5): cheaper ways to generate power. Thank CONSULTATION ON you, Mr. Speaker. POWER SUBSIDY MR. BROMLEY: I appreciate the ANNOUNCEMENT Premier’s explanation of their thinking MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. as far as they got. Speaker. My questions are for Premier Regular Members of this House, of McLeod, following up on my statement course, were caught by surprise by the from earlier today on related issues. announcement of this Cabinet largesse, Recently, Cabinet announced that rather learning about it the way most citizens than pass on the true cost of power of the NWT did: through the media. generated by diesel due to the hydro Were any members of responsible shortfall we are experiencing because of committees meaningfully consulted or climate-change- induced drought in our consulted at all on this latest $20 million hydro-generating system, the subsidy Cabinet has come up with? government would provide a direct HON. BOB MCLEOD: We have a subsidy yet again, this time to the tune protocol that we developed amongst all of $20 million. of us in this Legislative Assembly and Public Works, of course, is replete with we conformed to the protocol measures. hundreds of examples of reducing Thank you, Mr. Speaker. energy costs through infrastructure with MR. BROMLEY: Indeed we have, Mr. short payback periods. Speaker. We in this House all swore an Is there an equal commitment of $20 oath to uphold the 10 principles of million this government is making to consensus government. Principle provide energy infrastructure identified number five states, “Except under through rigorous evaluations to provide extraordinary circumstances, Members cheaper power? Mahsi. of the Legislative Assembly should be MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. made aware of and have an opportunity Bromley. The honourable Premier, Mr. to discuss significant announcements, McLeod. changes, consultations or initiatives before they are released to the public or HON. BOB MCLEOD: Thank you, Mr. introduced in the Legislative Assembly. Speaker. When we explained the Use of the element of surprise is rationale behind the $20 million it was inconsistent with consensus so our clients and every community in government.” the Northwest Territories wouldn’t have to pay an extra 13.7 percent increase in Is Cabinet aware of this guiding power for two years. principle? Mahsi. At the same time, we announced that HON. BOB MCLEOD: Thank you, Mr. we are holding an Energy Charrette on Speaker. We’re well aware of it and we November 3rd and 4th. We’re committed gave the Members notice. We told them October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 25 that we would be coming forward with the House today in terms of how we’re some initiative in this area, and I believe trying to address the cost of living in the we told them at least a week ahead of small communities and all communities time. Thank you. across the NWT. We’ve also heard MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. subsidies. Just in terms of heating fuel, McLeod. Final, short supplementary, Mr. this government over the last five years, Bromley. including this fiscal year, has subsidized public housing units and affordable MR. BROMLEY: I would ask the housing units to the tune of $39 million Premier to reread that principle for in heating fuel alone. We have residents himself in some nice quiet time when he out there who pay market rent or who can fully comprehend it. Being also own their own homes. constantly aware of the principles that we all swore an oath to and honouring I’d like to ask the Minister of Finance, the spirit of those principles – just to be seeing as he does write off on these sure the Premier heard the spirit of subsidies, if he’s willing to look at those principles – require the subsidizing specifically homeowners on commitment of all Members of this the high cost of fuel, heating fuel, as House, the commitment of all Members well as small business operators. Is he of this House. looking at creating some type of subsidy for these individuals who, as one other Is the government committed to Minister stated last week, are the conducting the business of this House in backbone of our economy? Thank you. the spirit of the 10 guiding principles of consensus government? Mahsi. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Moses. The honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. HON. BOB MCLEOD: The Member Miltenberger. seems to be opposed to the fact that we assisted all of the clientele that use HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: energy to the tune of $20 million and Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Over the last we’re hearing people are leaving the three years with Inuvik’s troubles with North because of that, and I’m very their gas wells taking on water and the prepared to adhere to the principles and issue of using propane, between the I gather that the Member is as well. So, Power Corp and the government, we’ve thank you. put in about $8 million to make sure we’ve tried to cushion the blow of the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. loss of the gas. We’ve switched the McLeod. The Member for Inuvik Boot Power Corp initially to diesel; we Lake, Mr. Moses. switched our buildings back to diesel to make sure we freed up much cheaper QUESTION 455-17(5): gas to the people of Inuvik. On top of POWER SUBSIDIES FOR that we have a lot of programs for HOMEOWNERS conservation, energy efficiencies, AND SMALL BUSINESS appliances, insulation, windows, which OPERATORS reduce your energy requirements. But MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. as the Premier indicated, we’re talking We’ve heard some really good about it through the Energy Charrette questions from Members on this side of and the focus on generation looking at October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 26 spending tens upon tens of millions of to them so that at the end of the day dollars to assist communities to deal they have a few dollars in their pocket with generation issues. For example, in so they can get the essential services? Inuvik we’ve been monitoring the wind The homeowner and the small business at Storm Hills between Inuvik and Tuk, operator. Thank you. and we know that there’s a capacity HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: As there that we could put in eight or nine I indicated, we are looking at trying to megawatt wind generators that would minimize the reliance on diesel. We’re cut reliance on diesel in Inuvik and looking at a whole host of ways to do probably Tuk by half. That’s about a 30 that. So no, there is no subsidy for to 40 million dollar price tag. Those are heating fuel being considered. If we did the kind of investments, rather than it we’d have to do it for every thermal subsidies, that we think would be of community, we’d have to do it across much bigger benefit, would minimize our the Northwest Territories. It would be reliance on diesel, cut all those tremendously expensive and at the end greenhouse gases and lower the cost to of the day I don’t think it would do much communities. over the long term to minimize reliance One of the challenges on the power side and encourage people to look at other is that the residential rates are pegged alternatives other than diesel. Thank to the Yellowknife rate. Unfortunately, you. the business rates are not. They pay the MR. MOSES: I understand that if you fully burdened cost. So that, as well, is do it for all thermal communities that it an issue we have to look at as we look would get to a high cost burden on at rate structures across the Northwest government. However, this year alone, Territories, especially when it comes to ’14-15, we’re subsidizing heating fuel for essential services like food. Thank you. public housing, affordable housing units MR. MOSES: Thank you. We’ve had in the Northwest Territories to the tune this discussion throughout the elected of $9 million. You add to that electrical Assembly with the issue going on in power, water and sanitation, this year Inuvik with the LNG fuel shortage, all we’re subsidizing all communities to the those concerns brought up before. My amount of $25 million, almost $26 question was specific to the homeowner million, and that’s not even including any and small business operator and that supplementary appropriations that we they can actually get subsidized, so at might see come before committee at the end of the day they have a few some point. So, we’re doing it right now dollars in their pocket so they can get for public housing units. the essential services, such as food, Why can’t we do it for some that the Minister mentioned in his communities to our homeowners who response. are paying high costs and having a hard Once again I’d like to ask the Minister, is time making it by? Why can’t we do he looking at some type of subsidy for that? Thank you. the homeowner so that at the end of the HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: day they’re not paying the full costs, as Thank you. That’s part of the $200 well as the small business operator who million that the Premier referenced that is paying the full cost? Is there a subsidy we’re paying in subsidies, and if we’re October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 27 going to do that for every homeowner look at the small business operator, and every business in the Northwest which is getting fewer and fewer every Territories, then I would suggest that year, every month? Would he look just even the hydro community folks would specifically at the community of Inuvik be there demanding that they have to and see what he could do to help the pay heating fuel as well. I think it would homeowner and to help the small truly beggar this government and would business operator? Thank you. be very counterproductive if we just HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: subsidized the cost of fuel. There would We, as a government, have mapped out be no incentive for business to drop the our next steps, now that we know the prices. transmission project is prohibitively As the world price goes down, they expensive to look at generation in all the know that whatever they charge we will communities. That is the plan where we pay. We’re far better off, the people are believe there is the ability to seriously far better off if you get off diesel, you put affect the cost of living. in pellets, you cut your energy costs, The Member would know, as a Member you do the things you need to do to get of this Legislative Assembly, while from off this substance that’s driving you Inuvik, to look at all the needs of people bankrupt. So that’s the issue that we’re in the Northwest Territories, that it would looking at as a government. Thank you. not be possible just to look at Inuvik as a MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. stand-alone community for some special Miltenberger. Final, short subsidy when you listen to the cost of supplementary, Mr. Moses. living in McPherson and Tsiigehtchic MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. and Sachs and Paulatuk and The Minister is correct in looking at Ulukhaktok and Aklavik that we could alternative energy sources. A lot of not in good conscience just look at those in past budgets, committee on this Inuvik. We are back to the issue of what side had to do a lot of fighting to get is the long-term benefit. Are we just some of those into the operating enabling and are we better off to do the budgets. planning to get people off diesel rather than just keep subsidizing and putting We’ve got about 80 homes for sale in more money in the pockets of the oil Inuvik. That means people are leaving companies and the big energy and wanting to leave. They can’t pay companies? Thank you. their heating bills or their power bills because it’s too high. That’s 80 homes. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. That’s a lot of people leaving the Miltenberger. Ms. Bisaro. community. QUESTION 456-17(5): I’m not asking for a subsidy throughout PUBLIC ACCESS TO the whole Northwest Territories. My AUTOMATED EXTERNAL Member’s statement and my questions DEFIBRILLATORS today are specific to Inuvik because of the high cost of living. MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m going to take a break from asking Would he look at the community of questions about the cost of living. My Inuvik and look at the homeowner and questions today are just for the Minister October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 28 of Municipal and Community Affairs. I tense of the verbs is in the future. I want to follow up to a motion passed in would hope that we are going to be this House in March which referenced soon present tense and doing work as the need for AEDs and defibrillators in opposed to we will be doing work. our public buildings. The federal program is a four-year I would like to thank the Minister for the program that started in 2013, so we are response to the motion that was passed already one year in. in March. The response by the Minister I would like to ask the Minister, in terms th was tabled by the Minister on the 16 of of the applications for money to get October. In the response it references AEDs for free, are we going to make the some of the work that has been done to deadline of the four-year program? date. I appreciate that we have done Thank you. some work to date. There is a plan that is suggested in that response and one HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Mr. of the things that it mentions is it talks Speaker, I’m not quite sure of the status about a lot of partnerships, but one of the application. I will follow up with partnership is to partner with the federal the department and provide a response government who has free money for us to the Member. I did say we did meet for AEDs. with our partner organizations to start the application process. I’m not quite I would like to first ask the Minister, what sure where that’s at right now. I will find progress has been made by MACA to out and I will respond to the Member. apply to Canada for funding available for Thank you, Mr. Speaker. AEDs for NWT public buildings? Thank you. MS. BISARO: Thanks to the Minister. I do appreciate that there is work going MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Ms. on, I’m just a little nervous that in three Bisaro. Minister for Municipal and years’ time we are going to get to the Community Affairs, Mr. McLeod. end of the road of the federal money HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, and we won’t have anything in hand. Mr. Speaker. I’m not quite sure of the The Minister has mentioned twice now status of the application right now. I can that he’s working with partners and tell the Member that we have met with developing partnerships and so on. One the NWT Fire Chiefs Association, the of them is the Heart and Stroke NWTAC and the Heart and Stroke Foundation. Foundation to partner up to access this national application-based funding. So, I would like to ask the Minister if he’s we’ve started the work with them. We aware of an offer from the St. John also started the project plan. We have Ambulance organization, who is offering initiated project plans, and stakeholders to assist GNWT with the program, and if will be surveying all the communities to yes, has he contacted the St. John determine their needs. Thank you, Mr. Ambulance? Thank you. Speaker. HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: We are MS. BISARO: Thanks to the Minister. partnering with the Heart and Stroke As in the response that was tabled a Foundation in trying to develop some of couple of weeks ago, I hear a lot of the our curriculum through the School of Community Government as to training October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 29 on the AEDs and the maintenance of and members of the committee. Thank them. As far as the St. John Ambulance, you, Mr. Speaker. I’m not quite sure of that one in MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. particular. Again, I will follow up. McLeod. Member for Yellowknife Any partnership that we can form to help Centre, Mr. Hawkins. us train first responders or people in the communities on using these particular QUESTION 457-17(5): types of equipment would be more than NORTHERN RESIDENTS TAX welcome. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. DEDUCTION MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final, short supplementary, Speaker. My questions will be directed Ms. Bisaro. towards the Premier. In my Member’s MS. BISARO: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. statement I talked about the northern Thanks to the Minister. I am happy to residents tax deduction. provide him with a copy of the letter. I My question would be to the Premier as will do that immediately after session. such, which is: When is the last time this I would like to ask the Minister, he is government or any recent previous talking about doing a survey of government has requested an increase communities for needs. I presume that to the northern tax deduction, and if means the number of public buildings there has been one in recent years, and the number of AEDs that they would would he have anything to substantiate need. that so we could see what type of letter or correspondence on the particular Can he give me any idea of when we issue has been done and certainly what can expect the survey results so that we work has been made on this particular will know our needs and can get going issue that can help the working poor and on further applying for money? Thanks. certainly make a big difference in the HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: everyday family’s bottom line? Thank [Microphone turned off] …question you. number four is when. I will find out for MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. the Member. We would like to start the Hawkins. The honourable Premier, Mr. work as soon as possible. There are McLeod. other ways the community can access some money to pay for these through HON. BOB MCLEOD: Thank you, Mr. the money that we provide for them. Speaker. On January 1, 2008, the There is also some money through the northern residents deduction was ground ambulance funding that we increased 10 percent, from $5,475 to provide to get a particular type and $6,022.50, the first increase since 1991. model that’s available to use in vehicles Our government has been working with of first responders. the governments of Nunavut and Yukon to look at requesting an increase in the We started the work. The work is northern resident deduction. Three underway, and once we get the results territorial Finance Ministers reviewed of all the work and the survey, we will be this, and on October 31, 2012, the sure to share that information with Finance Ministers reported to the Members of the Legislative Assembly October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 30Northern Premiers’ Forum and also Premier’s answer on that particular outlined a possible work plan. effort. Thank you. Their report noted that increasing the HON. BOB MCLEOD: The tax northern resident deduction would collection agreement between the decrease personal income tax revenues Northwest Territories and Canada for federal, territorial and some requires that both jurisdictions use the provincial governments. It would not same definition of taxable income. A benefit low-income families and would northern resident deduction increase only benefit high-income northern would reduce federal and territorial taxpayers. In addition, we would require personal income tax revenue. In our the support of six provinces whose forensic review, the 2008 increase in the northern residents also receive the northern resident deduction raised the northern resident deduction would need maximum deduction to $6,022.50. At the to be reconfirmed. At the time, we highest combined federal and territorial decided it was not in the best interest of tax rate of 43.5 percent, the $547.50 our low-income families to pursue this. increase would provide annual savings Thank you, Mr. Speaker. of $235 for tax filers claiming the MR. HAWKINS: Mr. Speaker, what maximum $6,022.50. The Government analysis really is broken out of this low- of the Northwest Territories’ annual income factor? The Premier is right; it’s costs for this federal tax measure is more than one jurisdiction. As a matter about $800,000 per year. of fact, there is the A-base and there is Undoubtedly, a northern resident the B-base, and the A-base, for sake of deduction increase would provide an illustration, is the three territories. The incentive for people to stay in the North, B-base, which is a lesser tax deduction, but we’ve looked at the numbers. Say affects places like northern Alberta, we wanted to get the federal northern Saskatchewan and works its government to increase the northern way across Canada. But with that resident deduction by $700 a year. Let’s illustration, we should be really asking say we go from $6,022.50 to $6,728. ourselves, how do we encourage people The estimated cost to our government is to live here in the Northwest Territories, $720,000. Let’s say we want to increase and by waving off those folks for whom it even further from $6,022.50 to $8,500. this could make a difference is certainly It’s going to cost our government an staring down the situation in the wrong extra $2.46 million a year. way. MR. HAWKINS: I’m a little confused on What analysis do we really know? What the particular part about it actually type of impact? Would our government particularly causing our government be prepared to do that type of analysis grief, if not financial, on the money on to find out would it still benefit all the bottom line. Maybe the Premier can Northerners at large? If you don’t have a illustrate why it actually costs us money paycheque, it doesn’t matter what the when it’s a federal tax credit. That’s the tax deduction is. It’s the working poor area we should be arguing for. At the and those people trying to continue to same time, this could be what starts to find the North still attractive. That underpin successful growth in our analysis is critical. I look forward to the October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 31 territorial population, because right now rent and stuff. It’s initiatives like this the we have very little. Government of the Northwest Territories The Premier, I think, said earlier today can shelter the cost of it a little better by that we subsidize to the tune of $190 letting working people keep some of million. In that range. I mean, the exact their working money. number is not so important at this Would the Premier re-examine it from second, but the point is that we’re trying that analysis, that if we can get more to find ways to grow our population. This money in Northerners’ pockets, no is certainly one that would help those doubt they’ll be spending it in our who can certainly make some money. economy where it’s exactly where we Has the Premier considered that? We would be doing it anyway? don’t need the permission of the other HON. BOB MCLEOD: That is our six provinces. We need Ottawa’s objective and we want to get more permission on this type of initiative. money in Northerners’ pockets. We’re HON. BOB MCLEOD: The reason it always being very vigilant in this area as costs us money is it reduces the amount well as looking in other areas such as of personal income tax that we collect. reducing energy costs, so the Energy For example, the 2008 increase, since Charrette, we expect, will go a long the claimed amount must be the lesser ways to that end as well. of the maximum allowable of $6,022.50 MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. and 20 percent of net income, taxpayers McLeod. The Member for Deh Cho, Mr. with net income of less than $30,115 will Nadli. not benefit from a northern resident deduction increase. QUESTION 458-17(5): MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTION McLeod. Final, short supplementary, Mr. IN FORT PROVIDENCE Hawkins. MR. NADLI: Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. wanted to talk about a dream that I Speaker. I appreciate the answer from always had, and one day that dream will the Premier. I mean, it certainly goes a become a reality. That dream is the idea long way of appreciating the complexity of a potato farm. We can make it of this issue. The bottom line is, how are happen. I’d like to pose a question to the we putting more money in Northerners’ Minister of Industry, Tourism and pockets? It had been frozen at Investment. approximately $5,400 for decades and I want to know how responsive the finally migrated by 10 percent to just Minister and this Cabinet and this above $6,000 in 2008. The bottom line government is to people out in the is, how do we get money in Northerners’ communities, because when you travel pockets, because we know more money into the communities, people know in a family’s pocket is really going out some of the solutions to the problems into the community to buy that Klik, my that we face and the challenges that we colleague from the Sahtu had said, have to meet every day that we live in whether it’s buying gasoline for their communities. skidoos, or buying their children presents and helping to pay that costly October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 32The potato, of course, people know of community leader to take on that the history of the people that came up initiative, that would be a good start. North, and they grew their own gardens. Of course, we have the Northern Farm One of the durable products that I’ve Training Institute that just recently come to know is the potato. We have received some federal funding, and the right soil. In Fort Providence it’s a hopefully some folks from Fort durable staple. Plus, at the same time, Providence can attend that training we’re situated right in the hub of the institute and bring those skills back to transportation where we have the river the community of Fort Providence. system and we have the highway system. It wouldn’t take much if there MR. NADLI: I take that the Minister was an idea of planting an area of does, in fact, agree and support the idea potatoes and building a processing of a potato farm. facility to sell and market them and With that, what is his department lessen the cost of living. prepared to do to assist individuals or The question that I have is for the groups that want to grow products such Minister of ITI. Does the Minister agree as potatoes or even community gardens that this is a good idea and can be done in their home community? and that this will probably curb the cost HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Yes, we do of goods in the North? support the development of agriculture MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Nadli. in the Member’s riding and all ridings The Minister of Industry, Tourism and across the Northwest Territories. I’d Investment, Mr. Ramsay. encourage anybody from the Member’s communities, if they are interested in HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, pursuing initiatives, to contact us at our Mr. Speaker. We’ve made great strides South Slave office in Hay River and when it comes to developing an we’d be more than happy to help them agricultural industry here in the out. Northwest Territories. The Member has a good idea. I was with the Member MR. NADLI: Why can’t we make this recently this summer and we traveled work? This is a very practical, doable down the river and there were farms idea, and what is stopping this Minister historically near the community of Fort and this Cabinet and this government of Providence. We’d certainly like to see addressing a very practical need in some of that agricultural initiative communities? These are ideas that renewed, and we have programs in come from people in the communities. place at ITI, working through our South They know. If it was a person from the Slave office, to support individuals in the average community, you would want to Member’s community that want to get know. Why can’t this be done now? involved with agriculture. We’ve seen HON. DAVID RAMSAY: The success success stories around the Northwest that we’ve seen in some other Territories when you look at communities around the Northwest communities like Norman Wells, Gameti Territories has been initiated by a real recently. If you can get somebody in the community leader, somebody that is community and identify a real very interested in seeing that project advance. That’s why, as I mention October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 33 earlier, the Farm Training Institute is so productions already archived on dusty important, so that people can go to Hay shelves. With very little given to the River, get some training, go back to their public or Members as to its mandate, I communities and be real community will have questions today for the man of leaders when it comes to developing the hour, the Premier of the Northwest agriculture in the communities. Territories. Again, I’d ask the Member, if he’s got As mentioned, we are about to embark somebody in his community that is on what is about to be our second interested, we are here to help. We’d be Energy Charrette in less than two years. more than happy to help community Can the Premier clearly articulate what leaders and community members is the specific mandate for this develop agriculture products in the upcoming charrette? Thank you. communities to help offset the high cost MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. of food in our communities. Dolynny. Honourable Premier, Mr. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Ramsay. Final, short supplementary, HON. BOB MCLEOD: Thank you, Mr. Mr. Nadli. Speaker. As we’ve said several times, MR. NADLI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I the Energy Charrette is to move us will give the Minister a last chance. away from transmission to generation Does he agree and support the idea of a and dealing with the potential of having potato farm in Fort Providence? Yes or to live with low water going forward. So no. we expect to see the outcomes that will show us how to go forward in terms of HON. DAVID RAMSAY: I prefer my empowering energy users, so that we potatoes with mushrooms. Yes, if we can help find a way to become more can advance that idea, I would certainly independent in power generation and support that idea. also to find cheaper ways of producing MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. power. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ramsay. The honourable Member for MR. DOLYNNY: I appreciate the Range Lake, Mr. Dolynny. Premier’s response. Can the Premier indicate what the budget is for holding QUESTION 459-17(5): this upcoming charrette? ENERGY CHARRETTE 2014 EXPECTATIONS AND HON. BOB MCLEOD: We are still in OUTCOMES the process of finalizing attendance and we’ll give him the proper accounting in MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. due course. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Speaker. As we embark on what appears to be another fact-finding MR. DOLYNNY: It does sound like we Energy Charrette, the second one in as have a bit of a murky mandate from little as two years, the residents of NWT transmission to generation. I didn’t quite are again waiting for real, affordable clearly hear exactly what the intent is solutions to lower their energy costs. and we haven’t really heard a budget, With the cost of living the hallmark of but I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, I believe concern, many believe this Energy the last charrette did cost taxpayers Charrette will be added to a long list of about $100,000. October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 34So, to be clear, can the Premier indicate solutions to deal with the high cost of if it’s the intent of this charrette to look at living in the Northwest Territories, are long-term solutions or short-term there any discussions the Premier has solutions? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. come across in doing a high cost of HON. BOB MCLEOD: We are looking living charrette in the Northwest at both, Mr. Speaker. Short-term, what Territories to have people come can we do in terms of conservation and together and look at ways that they so-called low-hanging fruit and also the could reduce the cost of living in their longer term approach to power communities? Has there been any type generation. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. of discussion like that that’s so important to people in the small communities? MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. McLeod. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Dolynny. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Honourable Premier, Mr. MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Speaker. Less than a year ago, this government tabled the report the HON. BOB MCLEOD: Thank you, Mr. Northwest Territories Energy Action Speaker. We’ve been looking at finding Plan – I have it right here – a three-year ways to reduce the cost of living for a action plan and long-term vision. Mr. long time. There are no silver bullets in Speaker, I can assume we have spent doing that. The biggest cost for the hundreds of thousands of dollars average homeowner or family is cost of preparing this, which really was energy, so we think an Energy Charrette supposed to be the blueprint and the will help us find a way to do exactly what hallmark of our energy concerns. the Member is suggesting. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Premier indicate to the House what do we do with this piece of MR. YAKELEYA: The Premier is right; equipment now? Thank you, Mr. there is no silver bullet. Energy seems Speaker. to be one of the major factors, the high cost of food in our Northern Stores and HON. BOB MCLEOD: That’s still a very the lack of employment. We have the good and important document. We will resources. Infrastructure seems to be spend the money that we’ve outlined in another factor in our smaller, remote that document over the next three years communities. If we have one litre of milk and I think it will benefit us all. Thank here in Yellowknife, one litre of milk in you, Mr. Speaker. Fort Good Hope or Colville Lake, why is Mr. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. there a difference between that and up McLeod. The honourable Member for in Ulukhaktok? What’s the difference? Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya. Where does the price add onto that litre of milk? That is what the people are QUESTION 460-17(5): asking. Or do we just accept the fact SOLUTIONS TO ADDRESS THE that living in the Northwest Territories is HIGH COST OF LIVING costing us a lot of money, to the point of MR. YAKELEYA: Thank you, Mr. $2 million in subsidies and the fact that Speaker. In listening to Members talk when you live further outside the about their concerns and possible regional centres, you are going to pay a October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 35 higher price and that’s the fact of the And that’s free and good for the matter, Jack? communities. Energy is only one component. We have I think we need to look at some of those the energy in our communities. The sun solutions especially for young people. doesn’t shine all the time and We, in our generation, grew up cutting sometimes there’s no wind. We’ve been wood, hauling wood by dog team and asking for wood pellets for a long, long then by skidoo. We need to look at time. There’s still a bunch of barriers to those types of solutions. get there. I want to look at some of the This is the important issue in the North. real matter-of-fact issues that are the Do we accept the cold hard facts that bread and butter issues today, not 10 or when you live further out than the larger 15 years from now. centres it’s going to be a challenge HON. BOB MCLEOD: I think there’s a because your options are limited? You country song called “The Cold Hard don’t have as many options as down in Facts of Life.” the Yellowknife area. That’s a fact. So, ---Laughter what type of incentives, like Mr. Nadli talked about being a potato farmer, the I think when you compare Yellowknife to potato capital in Fort Providence, to Deline or Ulukhaktok or any other have those types of options that the community, it’s obvious there's the cost Minister talked about and grabbing that of transportation, the fact that there’s type of energy and imagination of young competition in Yellowknife so that keeps people to say, this is what we can do to the prices down, and also in the small reduce the cost of living. These are the communities the businesses pay the facts, Jack. It’s going to cost a lot in the fully burdened cost of energy. They small communities and your choices are have to pass that on to the consumer. limited. They’re not like Yellowknife. You As a government, as I said, we spend cannot have that and that’s something about $200 million subsidizing the cost we’ve got to look at. So that’s why I’m of living. We have done studies that looking at the energy, the high cost of show in communities like Sachs living charrette, so common folk can sit Harbour, even though you make around and say, well, these are the $100,000, you have to be subsidized to solutions living in our small a certain extent. I don’t think there’s too communities. Thank you. many ways around it. HON. BOB MCLEOD: I think it’s In trying to find ways to reduce the high fortuitous that our Finance Minister is cost of living, we’ve determined that the starting his round of budget best way to reduce the cost of living is to consultations so he can hear directly invest in infrastructure. That’s the most from the people. I think going back to, I tangible way of doing that. Thank you, guess, the old days, if I can use that Mr. Speaker. terminology, where everybody was MR. YAKELEYA: There is also a song, independent. They went out and got “Put another Log on the Fire.” their own country food. They cut their own wood. It was a full-time job making ---Laughter sure they had food on the table. They could grow their vegetables, they’d set October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 36 nets to catch fish, they’d go do their fall MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. fishery and so on. That was the only Bromley. The Minister of Health, Mr. way that they could afford to live in Abernethy. those communities, because nobody HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, had power and nobody had running Mr. Speaker. There’s one midwifery water. position vacant in Fort Smith that they’re So in modern day equivalency, we have currently actively recruiting for. The two all those amenities. It’s very hard to go positions in Hay River have been filled back to living that lifestyle, but I think and we’re looking at going live early that we’re starting to see more and more 2015. We have already begun some of that with ITI. I think we now have 28 preliminary discussions with the communities that are back growing their Beaufort-Delta, but those positions and own food. that program will not be moving forward We, as a government, are moving more until 2015-2016 as per our plan, but we and more to biomass. We have most of are in early negotiations with those. Just our large buildings that are heated by recently we had the Deh Cho approach biomass. We’re very close, perhaps a us, indicating that they’d be interested. year or two away, from a wood pellet So we’re in conversation with them as facility, and a lot of the people are well. moving back and using wood pellets. So One of the challenges we have right I think this Energy Charrette is one of now is our coordinator position within the focuses to get people to be more the department has left the department. independent in generating power and so So we’re actively out recruiting for that on. position. We anticipate that that position I think those are the kinds of things we will be filled in short order, which will have to seriously look at. I think we have allow us to continue to make the no choice. Thank you. progress that we’re making today. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. The Member for Weledeh, Mr. Bromley. MR. BROMLEY: Thank you. If memory serves – and I can always look this up – QUESTION 461-17(5): the schedule after Beau-Del, I believe, EXPANSION OF MIDWIFERY was to return to Yellowknife and the SERVICES Tlicho, so ’15-16. MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Can I assume that ’16-17 will be Speaker. My questions are for the Yellowknife? Mahsi. Minister of Health and Social Services, HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you. and I’m really just seeking an update on We continue to move forward as the where we’re at with the implementation plan outlines, which is Fort Smith done, of midwifery. Perhaps I could get where Hay River, Beaufort-Delta, Yellowknife, we’re at with Fort Smith and Hay River but we will look at other communities to start with. and regions as well. Thank you. Are those positions filled and are those MR. BROMLEY: Just to return to the programs fully up and running? Mahsi. Beaufort-Delta, I believe the last we spoke there was something that was October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 37 going to happen in December or in the Beaufort-Delta. The result of January of 2015, December this year, those consultations, a number of January, in terms of negotiations were challenges and concerns were raised supposed to be starting. around things like deliverables, potential Perhaps I could just get some more complications and individuals’ specifics from the Minister on exactly responsibilities. We’re working through where we’re at with the Beau-Del, given those right now with the Beaufort-Delta that Hay River is fully up and running Health and Social Services Authority. and, I guess, this year it should be the Once we’re a little bit closer and we Beau-Del. Mahsi. have that information worked out with the physicians, we intend to do some HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you. public engagements as well. Just for clarity, the Hay River program is not up and running to full capacity. We We will not be moving forward with are actually working on the development staffing until such time as a budget is of some evaluation parameters with the actually approved for the 2015-2016 staff and making sure that everything is calendar or fiscal year, which means we going to be appropriate for rollout and will not be moving forward with staffing st we’re looking to roll out in early 2015. until at least April 1 , and it will take a We have already begun some early and number of months to fill those positions. initial consultations for the expansions of But I’m prepared to move forward the services to the Beaufort-Delta, and without a confirmed or approved budget. we’re looking forward to having some Thank you. public consultations up there in 2015- MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. 2016 as we move forward with rollout. Abernethy. Time for oral questions, time Thank you. has expired. Item 8, written questions. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Item 9, returns to written questions. Mr. Abernethy. Final, short supplementary, Clerk. Mr. Bromley. 7) Returns to Written Questions MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, I guess I would seek RETURN TO WRITTEN QUESTION 21- more clarity. There was a lot of fluff in 17(5): that response. Some early consultation REGULATOR OF OIL AND GAS and then moving into consultations in OPERATIONS 2015 and 2016 and rollout in 2015- CLERK OF THE HOUSE (Mr. Mercer): 2016. I’m not getting a warm and fuzzy Mr. Speaker, I have a Return to Written feeling here. We’re looking for some Question 21-17(5) asked by Mr. Dolynny steady progress here and I think the on October 20, 2014, to the Honourable Minister knows that. David Ramsay, Minister of Industry, Can we expect April 1st of 2015 there Tourism and Investment, regarding the will be some implementation happening regulator of oil and gas operations. on the ground in the Beau-Del? Mahsi. Mr. Dolynny had asked the following HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you. questions: There have been some consultations 1. At times the regulator is privy to with physicians and other professionals information that would not be in the October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 38 public’s best interest to disclose or Mineral Development and Economic debate, such as a company’s net Opportunities Strategy, continue profit projections. What mechanisms under this new regime? are in place to ensure that information The regulator acts as an independent disclosure will respect the public’s regulatory and decision-making entity best interest and not place any and does not participate in the corporation, agency or other development of government programs organization at a significant and strategies relating to the support of disadvantage, and how will this economic development through industry information be dealt with in response engagement and promotion. These to questions and debates within this functions are carried out by the House? Government of the Northwest Territories The regulator is bound by Section 91 of departments. the Petroleum Resources Act (PRA), 3. How will decisions be reached in which states that information or situations where the views of documentation provided for the departmental advisors differ widely purposes of the PRA or the Oil and Gas from the oil and gas committee or the Operations Act (OGOA) is privileged, Members of the Legislative with the exception of some areas of Assembly? permissible disclosure identified in that section. Financial information submitted The regulator, or his delegate, is a by a company is privileged under the statutory decision-maker who can only legislation. consider evidence that is put before him in accordance with the requirements of The regulator cannot disclose or discuss the legislation and the information information that is privileged under requirements, guidelines and Section 91 of the PRA in the Legislative interpretation notes issued under the Assembly Canada Oil and Gas Operations Act The regulator is also bound by the prior to April 1, 2014, and carried over Access to Information and Protection of under the transitional provisions Privacy Act (ATIPPA). Where there is a contained in OGOA. conflict or inconsistency between the The regulator has service agreements in provisions of the PRA and the ATIPPA, place with the National Energy Board the PRA provisions are to be followed and the Alberta Energy Regulator to (per Section 91(11) of the PRA.) provide technical expertise and The regulator values and strives to recommendations in support of achieve transparency and openness decision-making. From time to time, the with respect to decision-making regulator also accesses technical processes and other regulatory expertise from other regulators. activities. However, as outlined above, While staff of the National Energy the regulator is bound by the privilege Board, Alberta Energy Regulator and provisions of Section 91 of the PRA. others provide technical expertise, 2. How will corporate involvement and decisions are made by the regulator or development of government his delegates, as appropriate. programs and strategies, such as the October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 39Due to the confidentiality requirements TABLED DOCUMENT 153-17(5): in the PRA and the need to maintain an SUMMARY OF MEMBERS’ arm’s length and independent decision- ABSENCES making process, the regulator cannot FOR THE PERIOD discuss specific applications with GNWT MAY 28, 2014, TO OCTOBER 15, departmental officials, MLAs or other 2014 stakeholders, including members of the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. public, except under the limited Abernethy. Pursuant to Section 5 of the circumstances provided for in the Legislative Assembly and Executive legislation. The regulator also cannot Council Act, I wish to table the Summary discuss applications with Executive of Members’ Absences for the Period of Council. May 28, 2014, to October 15, 2014. The oil and gas committee identified in Thank you. Mr. Miltenberger. OGOA has not been constituted. However, its role is limited to decisions TABLED DOCUMENT 154-17(5): with respect to pooling and unitization, SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES where the committee is empowered to (INFRASTRUCTURE make decisions and issue orders under EXPENDITURES), OGOA that bind the operators in NO. 4, 2014-2015 question. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. TABLED DOCUMENT 155-17(5): MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Clerk. SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES Item 10, replies to opening address. (OPERATIONS EXPENDITURES), Item 11, petitions. Item 12, reports of NO. 2, 2014-2015 standing and special committees. Item 13, reports of committees on the review HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: of bills. Item 14, tabling of documents, Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to table Mr. Abernethy. the following two documents, entitled “Supplementary Estimates 8) Tabling of Documents (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 4, 2014-15,” and “Supplementary TABLED DOCUMENT 152-17(5): Estimates (Operations Expenditures), ANNUAL REPORT OF THE No. 2, 2014-2015”. Thank you. DIRECTOR OF MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES Miltenberger. Item 15, notices of motion. 2013-2014 Item 16, notices of motion for first HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, reading of bills. Item 17, motions. Item Mr. Speaker. I wish to table the following 18, first reading of bills. Item 19, second document, entitled “Annual Report of the reading of bills. Mr. Moses. Director of Child and Family Services 2013-2014.” Thank you. October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 409) Second Reading of Bills SOME HON. MEMBERS: Question. BILL 33: MR. SPEAKER: Question has been AN ACT TO AMEND THE called. Bill 33, An Act to Amend the ELECTIONS AND PLEBISCITES Elections and Plebiscites Act, No. 2, has ACT, NO. 2 had second reading. MR. MOSES: Mr. Speaker, I move, ---Carried seconded by the honourable Member Mr. Moses. for Thebacha, that Bill 33, An Act to MR. MOSES: Mr. Speaker, I seek Amend the Elections and Plebiscites unanimous consent to waive Rule 69(2) Act, No. 2, be read for the second time. and have Bill 33, An Act to Amend the Mr. Speaker, Bill 33 amends the Elections and Plebiscites Act, No. 2, Elections and Plebiscites Act to: moved into Committee of the Whole.  replace the provisions for advance ---Unanimous consent granted polls with a new special voting MR. SPEAKER: Item 20, consideration opportunity; in Committee of the Whole of bills and  modernize requirements relating to other matters: Bill 25, An Act to Amend campaigning, including requirements the Education Act; Bill 27, with respect to campaign advertising Miscellaneous Statute Law Amendment and sponsor identification; Act, 2014; Bill 29, Human Tissue Donation Act; Bill 30, An Act to Amend  require candidates to file statements the Public Service Act; Bill 32, An Act to from banks or approved institutions in Amend the Pharmacy Act; Bill 33, An support of their financial reports; Act to Amend the Elections and  increase the number of electors for Plebiscites Act, No. 2; Committee whom another elector may vouch and Report 7-17(5), Report on the prohibit candidates from vouching; Development of the Economic  prohibit candidates from accepting Opportunities and Mineral Development more than $1,500 in anonymous Strategies; Tabled Document 115-17(5), contributions; Northwest Territories Capital Estimates 2015-2016; Tabled Document 154-  permit candidates to pay for petty 17(5), Supplementary Estimates expenses incurred in a campaign (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 4, period; 2014-2015; and Tabled Document 155-  enhance the investigation and 17(5), Supplementary Estimates enforcement powers of the Chief (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2014- Electoral Officer; and 2015, with Mr. Dolynny in the chair. modernize the drafting of the offence 10) Consideration in Committee of the Whole provision. of Bills and Other Matters Thank you, Mr. Speaker. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Good MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. afternoon, committee. I’d like to call Moses. There’s a motion on the floor. Committee of the Whole to order today. The motion is in order. To the principle What is the wish of committee? Ms. of the bill. Bisaro. October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 41MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: We would like to continue consideration Thank you, Mr. Chair. With me is the of Tabled Document 115-17(5), deputy minister, Ernie Campbell; and Northwest Territories Capital Estimates Mr. Bill Mawdsley, director of forest fire 2015-2016, with the Department of operations. Thank you. Environment and the Legislative CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Assembly and, time permitting, Minister Miltenberger. Mr. Campbell, Mr. Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Mawdsley, welcome to the House again. Expenditures), No. 4, 2014-2015, Tabled Document 154-17(5); and, time Committee, we were continuing on permitting, Supplementary Estimates detail of Environment and Natural (Operations Expenditures), No.24, Resources. We are currently on page 2014-2015, Tabled Document 155- 22. With that, Environment and Natural 17(5). Thank you. Resources, forest management, infrastructure… Mrs. Groenewegen. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Does committee agree? MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a motion I would SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. like to have circulated, please. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you. committee. We’ll commence with that If you just give us a second, we’ll after a brief break. circulate that motion. Thank you. ---SHORT RECESS Mrs. Groenewegen, go ahead with your CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): I’d like to motion. call Committee of the Whole back to order. As agreed upon before the break, COMMITTEE MOTION 92-17(5): we are going to continue on with Tabled RETENTION OF AMPHIBIOUS Document 115-17(5), NWT Capital FIREFIGHTING AIRCRAFT AND Estimates, and we are currently with the EXPANDED TRAINING AND Department of Environment and Natural DEPLOYMENT OF COMMUNITY Resources. I’d like to ask Minister FIREFIGHTERS, Miltenberger if he would like to bring DEFEATED witnesses into the Chamber. Minister MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Mr. Chair, I Miltenberger. move that the Department of HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: Environment and Natural Resources Yes, Mr. Chair. Thank you. retain and continue to operate the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, existing fleet of government-owned Mr. Miltenberger. Does committee Canadair CL-215 amphibious firefighting agree? aircraft; and further, that the department of Environment and Natural Resources SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. work closely with Municipal and CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you. Community Affairs’ School of I will ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to please Community Government to expand escort the witnesses to the table. effort in training and developing For the record, Mr. Miltenberger, could community firefighters in all regions to you please introduce your witnesses? promote awareness of fire protection October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 42 responsibility at the community level. that could help us in that as well. So, I Thank you, Mr. Chairman. just don’t want the government to hastily CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, dispose of these. Mrs. Groenewegen. The motion is in The capabilities of the 802s versus the order. To the motion. Mrs. CL-215s, and for sure I am not an Groenewegen. expert on this, but to my understanding MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Thank you, they are two very different vehicles Mr. Chairman. As I stated yesterday in when it comes to fighting fire and they the House, I am not opposed to the each have their strengths and their purchase of the new 802 firefighting weaknesses. I would question, I guess, aircraft, the ordering of those. They will the business sense of getting rid of the be on the ground, I assume, around 215s because, like I said, it could be a 2017. But I think that in spite of some of very questionable value that we could the challenges with the 215s, I think it is actually acquire for them. still worth hanging on to them. Mr. The second part of the motion speaks to Miltenberger yesterday said that the the training of firefighting crews in the overall cost of the firefighting season Northwest Territories. All fires are in this past summer was $60 million and different locations. Some of them are that it would cost around $3 million to small and can be fought to some extent keep this group of aircraft on the ground on the ground. I think that we need to and on standby. It seems like it should make sure that we have attacks from all be fairly good insurance if we end up aspects and all angles available at our having other serious fire seasons here disposal. This also does create in the Northwest Territories. employment and training in our I think the CL-215s have proven communities, and we have people then themselves, and in spite of what I hear readily available who can assist when are some fuel issues, I think the GNWT fires threaten their region and our owns an inordinate amount of parts for communities. They can be deployed to these aircraft, and from the information I different parts of the Northwest have, it would appear that the market for Territories. I think it’s another excellent these aircraft, if the government were investment on the part of this selling them, would hardly be enough to government. be considered the down payment on the That is it, kind of a summary. The gist of 802s. I don’t know; I’m just looking at this motion is to retain the 215s. I am them from a business point of view, and not opposed to purchasing the 802s and if the 215s have any useful life to us, would like to see the human resource any use to us as a government, we aspect of the firefighting component also would be better off to keep them in our ramped up by this government. Thank possession as opposed to disposing of you, Mr. Chairman. them. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, As I had also mentioned, there may be Mrs. Groenewegen. To the motion. Mr. future use for the 215s in the area of Bouchard. pollution and containment and MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. abatement, and apparently there are kits Chair. Obviously, with this year’s that these aircraft could be outfitted with October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 43 firefighting season, I am definitely regions. The problem being, if there are supporting the second part of this fires in every other province and they training of firefighters at the regional have their assets contained, we will levels and including more and more of have difficulties acquiring this. Typically, that for future years. We know over the there is some region that is not fighting next couple of years we are probably fires at the same time as us, but the going to need more crews on the scenarios are that we should be ground, and even the department keeping… If we have an asset that the mentioned it yesterday that we have fuel supply hasn’t run out, and we have these large craft that spread retardant these assets and the parts for it, we but the actual fires are put out by the know that they are effective in many crews, by the staff, and I think that we ways, we should be keeping these need to make sure that we have a well- assets in our inventory until the last trained staff in the Northwest Territories. possible minute that we can. If we have an abundance of staff in five We’re not getting much for sale value. years, then that’s something that we can We know they are not much use for farm out. other territories who have upgraded to Obviously, considering the 215s, I do the 415s, the larger planes. What we think it’s an asset that we need to keep. know is our jurisdiction is smaller funded I have been questioning the need for the and we can’t afford 415s, so I think we 802s at this time, especially with the should be keeping the 215s as arsenal expenditures that we’ve been having. I in our firefighting capacity, so I will be know there are concerns with the fuels, supporting this motion. Thank you, Mr. yet we know there are thousands if not Chair. tens of thousands of planes that are CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, currently operating under this fuel Mr. Bouchard. To the motion. Mr. system in North America, and I think Moses. that the perceived perception that there is going to be a shortage of this fuel is MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Chair. one where we are predicting, or one we Just in light of the events that took place are convincing ourselves that this is a last year in the communities that were situation that needs to be rectified by put at risk and not only that but having purchasing these 802s, spending $27 enough resources in terms of million currently. I guess I lost that fight. manpower, I think that the motion I have been fighting to maybe delay this brought forth that we have before us is a purchase of these units and try to motion that shows government supports actually do it between the two types of our forestry division. equipment. I think this is the I honestly think that keeping the 215s, compromise that would keep the 215s. we need as many resources as possible When we have demands in the along with the 802s, and I think they Territories, we’re going to need all the would be more efficient in terms of assets that we have. We have heard having initial attacks with the fires. from the Minister and the department Having more fleets would also be a that we will farm it out, we will get safety mechanism, so we wouldn’t put additional reinforcements from other some of our individuals on the front lines October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 44 and we can fight them from the air the line providing the services that they rather than on the ground. do. Speaking with some of my former The government does provide the colleagues in the forestry area, it was a resources necessary to do this job, and very dry season and it’s all indicating it’s our job to support the government that we will have another dry season where necessary and we feel it makes next year, so we can actually look at sense. This is an interesting one having a more extreme fire season and because our government is looking at it could possibly get worse. So the more the aircraft referred to as the 802s style resources we have, the better. Like was of aircraft and replacing our present mentioned, we had seven communities fleet, which is referred to as the 215. It’s that were at risk. Having those trained funny when you think about it, that the individuals would help lower that risk for new system will come in but does the communities that might be in danger. old system become completely But as my colleague Mr. Bouchard said, obsolete. There may be a value to it if as well, we have jurisdictions that have we market it and sell it somewhere. But I extreme forest fire seasons, as well – often wonder what the results, thinking BC, Alberta – and I know that the about that, is what value does it present territory does export a lot of our us and what value have we taken away firefighters south or to the Yukon or from the potential opportunity of using wherever there are extreme fire these? conditions. I don’t know, really, if this is from an So I support the motion and any accounting exercise, certainly not resources that we can give to our guys experience. None of us in this room, on the front lines that would make sure besides the experts at the witness table that they go home at night and also that is, have this level of detail or protect our communities and our assets experience on how to deal with these and peoples’ livelihoods. I fully support it things, both financially and and thank Mrs. Groenewegen for operationally. bringing this motion forward. Thank you, One of the challenges I have here is the Mr. Chair. worry of thinking, would we be selling an CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, asset of ours for pennies on the dollar, Mr. Moses. To the motion. Mr. Hawkins. out the door just to get rid of them and asking ourselves, are we ready for the MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. next fire season or the next fire season Chairman. I could go on at length on thereafter. So I would caution us to get how important our fire system is, and rid of them too. I think really what this certainly our resources and personnel. I motion is doing is suggesting, let’s keep would certainly like to do so, but them in our fleet, although it doesn’t unfortunately, time doesn’t avail itself to have a time frame by saying keeping the amount of things that we should be them in our fleet three, five, 10 years, talking how great they are. I will say that but what it does is it suggests that we without them, we would have seen such keep them in our fleet to be prepared. a horrendous result of this summer, and I am very thankful they have been on I’m happy to support the motion at this time, and I would prefer that we keep October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 45 them in our fleet, keep them accessible stores of supplies and tools and to us. And you know what? There may everything that suits them, including be a way to work them into our parts, it would be a shameful waste to firefighting system. get rid of them, like I said, at pennies on I’d really like to see an evaluation done the dollar when this could be a territorial maybe after two fire seasons. If they resource that we could evaluate after a become a financial problem, and I don’t couple of years to find out if it really want to use the word boondoggle, made sense. because that always brings a bit of a We have to have the vision of this and negative aspect, but if they end up being this is what Legislatures do, is we’re just a financial resource, we spend our supposed to have the vision of seeing money, that just isn’t played out, and the problems ahead of us and trying to affordability factor, I mean, those results figure out ways to deal with them. I’m would drive the analysis, and I wouldn’t hopeful that this could be a resource want to prejudice them coming in until that puts people to work and protects that result is done. My encouragement Northerners where it matters most. would be, let’s keep them as an CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, operational asset for probably a couple Mr. Hawkins. To the motion. Mr. years and do an assessment on that Bromley. and find out where they were. MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. It’s funny. We only have so many planes I will not be supporting this motion. I now and we fought the fires that we think retaining this fleet would be, fought. What would it have been like if unfortunately, equivalent to deciding to we had twice the amount of keep an albatross around our necks. infrastructure fighting the same fire? This is currently an investment liability Would we have fought it twice as fast? I with increasingly low returns on that don’t know. I mean, mathematically, fire investment. doesn’t burn that way, I know. Fire experts will tell you how it burns, and We know what maintenance costs are how it continues to grow at different and they’re increasing. We know we paces. Could we have stopped it sooner have to maintain a huge parts inventory, than later? I don’t know, but I would and these are the sorts of commitments hope that maybe if we kept these a we’d need to retain this as a potentially couple years, saw the results and were useful tool. I mean, this is just for able to sort of chart and plan and standby we’re talking here and the years predict, maybe, in the future, I mean, such as this when we would take any this might be the way to go. help we can get. Of course, the Minister and others have mentioned that we can The last thing I’ll say is, although we patch into those other resources don’t have the money to go beyond nationally as required and very efficient eight 802s, after this fire season one use of fleets across Canada. It enables may wonder is eight enough. jurisdictions to do what they can without Financially, we are not in any position to having to try and cover all fronts. keep pursuing more than eight, but by the same token, keeping them, an asset As a member of the Economic we already own, a cache of equipment, Development and Infrastructure October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 46 standing committee, I was able to I’d just like to relate, very briefly, an participate in a review of this and ask a experience I had. I think it was last lot of questions, and I was satisfied with summer. My wife and I were out at River the responses I heard. The sorts of Lake and woke up to a small forest fire things I’ve heard during the debate so not too far away. After foolishly trying to far here with ENR and this session is fight it ourselves, we found out my wife’s these aircraft are costly to maintain. cell phone worked, so we were able to They’re old. As the Minister said, they’re patch in and within 20 minutes the 215s almost as old as I am, and that’s pretty were there. It was great. There were two old. Those costs are both direct through of them and they dumped six loads for maintaining the aircraft and indirect that tiny little fire, but each time to reload through maintenance of a very large they had to go all the way to Prosperous inventory of parts which is required, as Lake, whereas the 802s clearly would we know. I think of Buffalo Air and I’m have been able to dip right there into sure they have a huge inventory of parts that significantly sized River Lake. to keep those aircraft in the air, and that That’s an example of the sorts of and, is an ongoing cost. again, very precise, delivery. While they carry a larger payload of Pollution kits, I think I heard Mrs. water, and that’s attractive, they are Groenewegen talk about those, and significantly limited, as we’ve heard, in those are of interest. I would think they several ways. Just to go over a few of would certainly be available on a those: maneuverability. They’re not able modern aircraft and we should include to get into small water bodies, so they that in our purchase if that’s the case for have to go quite a ways. They’re not as the 802s. precise in delivering the load exactly Currently, I think there is a modest bit of where it’s needed. Fuel requirements, resale value for these aircraft and the very restrictive. Avgas, as we know, is very large parts inventory we have, so becoming more and more limited in its considering this potential investment availability across the NWT and across recovery, as modest as it is, but also the North. Of course, that means they avoiding the increasing annual costs of can’t be stationed where they need to maintenance, crews, insurance, and so be without a huge investment to on, all for this aging fleet, with all of the transport fuel rather than relying on limitations that are listed in their commercial supplies that have larger performance really robs us of the volumes and lower costs. There is also funding and resources we’re seeking in something I haven’t heard people the second half of the motion, which I do mention very much, if at all, and that’s support very much. Partly I disagree the personnel requirements. The 215s with the first part of this and I see a have double the personnel requirements conflict with the second part, which I do of the 802s, and to have them on support. standby, again, I think, is a significant part of the costs. I’ve mentioned the Again, I appreciate this being brought maintenance and precision of delivery forward and the discussion that it’s as an additional couple of things. engendered here, and I certainly hope we don’t forget about the second part. Again, I will be not supporting the October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 47 motion, but I do appreciate the were importing a lot of firefighters this discussion. summer. I certainly support additional CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, firefighters for the communities, but the Mr. Bromley. To the motion. I have Mr. way the motion reads, maintaining an Menicoche. older fleet that needs increased maintenance and even more MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very maintenance, I just can’t support that. much, Mr. Chair. Having discussions Thank you. with our committee with the Minister of ENR with regard to purchase of the Air CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Tractor 802s, I certainly support the idea Mr. Menicoche. To the motion I have of replacing the CL-215s, and one of the Ms. Bisaro. biggest is, aside from all the technical MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I aspects that are being discussed here in appreciate the mover of the motion the last little bit, is we’re facing funding bringing it forward. I’ve listened to the pressures, and once again, if we’re arguments on both sides and I really going to maintain the extra fleet while don’t know whom to believe at this point. buying these new Air Tractors, we’re I see the value in retaining the CL-215s, also talking about $3 million worth of but I also understand the cost that’s resources that is much needed in the involved if we do that. I do appreciate communities and regions. I liked the that I think the argument that the eight briefing where it says that because new 802s will suffice, that we don’t need they’re smaller, they’re able to be closer to keep the CL-215s. So I’m torn and to the fires. They’re even able to be think that I don’t want to vote against parked in some of the smaller this motion. communities with the longer runways if I certainly appreciate the second part of and when needed. this motion. I do believe that we need to I won’t be supporting that motion, but I make sure that our communities have just want to say further to that, it’s firefighters within the communities, that interesting how the motion talks about we retain firefighters within our efforts in training and deploying communities, and I gather there’s been community firefighters in all regions, and a trend away from that. that’s certainly something that’s So I will have to abstain from the definitely needed and I certainly support motion. Thank you, Mr. Chair. that. I know that our communities want those extra supports out there because CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, they told me this summer, why wait for Ms. Bisaro. To the motion, Mr. the firefighters? Why don’t you use that Yakeleya. extra training and hire more people from MR. YAKELEYA: Mr. Chair, I wanted the communities that want to be out to say that the fleet that we own, the CL- there firefighting? So if anything needs 215s, were, I’d say, a gift from the to be said about this motion, I would say federal government when we purchased we’ve got to continue utilizing our them. They certainly have done their homegrown expertise. There are lots of work fighting fires in the Northwest people in my communities that want to Territories. Certainly, we could continue go firefighting. They’re EFFs, but we to use them. We’ve seen a number of October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 48 dollars that were spent on this past communities and the regions. You have summer’s fire season and I think that to have fire suppression crews. You there’s still some useful time left in the have to bring a balance to the life of these CL-215s. I’m hoping that the technology and just good old plain government would continue to look for manpower and look at some of the ways that we can retain them and areas and how we’re fighting fires in the continue to operate them in the North. different regions. That’s why I said There has to be a lot of pros on the CL- yesterday in Committee of the Whole, 215s. That’s why it makes good sense there seems to be some kind of a two- for us to keep these fleets within the tier standard for fighting fire in the control of the GNWT. Northwest Territories. The department officials could tell me otherwise, but I’ve The second paragraph of this motion seen it in the Sahtu. I know there are speaks to the community members who some people in the communities who want to help their community by fighting have fought fires for a long time. fires, if they’re properly trained. We Sometimes they don’t meet the up-to- made a conscious decision to cut crews date standards of being a firefighter. It’s in some of the smaller communities to changed over time. save money, and I know that didn’t make sense to some of the communities I fought fire when I was a young man – that no longer have suppression crews I’m still a young man – in the good old in their communities while there were days of fighting fire. Today, I fires around the communities and the understand, they’ve got showers now. water bombers came in to fight the fires. You never heard about that in ’79. They There has to be a balance. had showers in camps and you’re moving out there in the hot fires with Community fire suppression crews do a backpacks and we gave ‘er until the fire lot for the communities and sometimes was out. We were happy when the other resources are not available right water bombers came because then we away, and sometimes these fires are got a five-minute rest. Then we worked being monitored far from the community. again. I think some of the old way of They get bigger and bigger and pretty doing business is still valid today. I think soon everybody is screaming and that we’ve got to believe in our people, yelling for water bombers, it’s smoky and this motion’s second paragraph is and all that stuff. My friend next to me, talking about the people don’t have that fortunately they had cell phone service dependence so much on new aircraft and made a phone call, and he said 20 coming in. minutes later two water bombers were coming in. They dropped six loads. I We’ve got to believe in our people and sure wish I had that in the Sahtu, you say that it makes sense to have a fire know. So we’ll be fighting every fire crew in the regions or in the down here in the south and here. Last communities that the crews were cut year it wasn’t like that in the Sahtu, and from, not having a suppression crew it was pretty smoky up there. there. It’s an evolution process in developing our people in our smaller So this is where we see the second communities. And there are challenges. phase of the motion, to bring and train Nothing is going to be easy. I think that and start deploying the firefighters in the October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 49 this motion is talking about that, bringing our communities, but they focus on our back the basics. This technology out actual community and suppression there, the 802s, I think that they’re pretty crews tend to defend the communities good, from what I’m hearing. They can and around the community. do some good work there. I think we Moving forward, I think that is something need to balance it with some pretty good that we need to bring back. I mentioned crews. You could call them the 802 that, even within the last year here, even crews in the communities, a new breed before this big fire season that we had. of firefighters. Like I said, I never We didn’t seem to act on that and we thought I’d see showers in the fire see the consequences; you know, camps, but they are there. I remember scrambling around, last minute. It seems how people felt when they were working that we are always doing crisis control. on the fires and helping their community. It always helps to be prepared for major disasters like this. We were very So I’m going to support this motion on fortunate this year that we did manage that principle, and I think that there are to control the fire, but now, moving some… Surely there must be some forward, we have to do a better job as good points in the CL-215s and we can government to be prepared. I really use them. I think there’s a need for it. All strongly recommend that we put back I’ve been hearing is the reasons why we those suppression crews that we have need to let them go. I guess maybe for taken out within the last 10 years. I some of us it’s hard to let some things could name a few communities offhand, go. It may be true, I’m not doubting the but I’m sure the department knows that information, but I think there’s a way that very well. Moving forward, I would like to we could certainly keep them and see see those put back in place. where they can be most beneficial to us. Those are my comments, Mr. Chair. To the motion, unfortunately, I can’t support that. Thank you. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. To the motion. Mr. Blake. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Mr. Blake. To the motion. Minister MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. As Miltenberger. much as I would like to support this motion, from what I understand there HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: are a few challenges with the current Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In regards to aircraft, keeping them operating and up the second part of the motion, we of to standards. As you know, in this day course are going to be looking at the fire and age there are a lot of standards that crews. We had very good fortune and a we have to follow and I think that good response when we started training moving forward with new aircraft will live emergency firefighters, and the issue of up to those standards and have safer are we adequately staffed on the ground equipment for forestry crews. is one we’re going to look at as part of our comprehensive annual review that Also, the second part of the motion, we do. So we are going to work on that. working with the School of Community Government, in the past ENR has In relation with community firefighters, always had suppression crews on their fighting residential fires is one that we own. We do have fire departments in haven’t explored that much, but we October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 50 definitely are going to be looking at are so they sit on the runway if we are going we staffed up to the right degree with to keep them. If we were called and we the fire crews on the ground, especially had to send planes south and our 802s if we anticipate that this may be where busy, these ones would have to something close to a new normal. sit on the runway because they won’t be Hopefully it’s not, but we don’t know. allowed to fly in any other jurisdiction. In regards to retaining of the 215s, there They have served us well, their time has is a fuel shortage. Avgas, as a fuel, is come, there is some life left in them, but becoming harder and harder to get. It it might be another thing except contains lead; we have to special order firefighting. it; we have to try to guess where it’s Final comment, Mr. Chairman, is we had going to be needed. Either that or we a similar situation like this 20 years ago put it in all of the communities in very where we had Canso bombers and they large quantities and then it has a shelf were the equivalent of what 215s are life of six months. If you ship it into the today. They were old, antiquated, small more remote areas and you have no capacity, high maintenance planes that use for it, there’s no fire season, you are for all the wrong reasons, in retrospect, left with a huge inventory of avgas that we kept. We tried to keep them in our costs us a fortune and we have no way fleet and we spent enormous amounts to dispose of it. Then we have to go of time and money. They were, in fact, a through the process of, in fact, hauling it liability before we finally made the out and it has to get recertified or it has decision that this is crazy to keep these to get disposed of because of the short old Canso bombers with a high, high shelf life. repair rate, accident prone, but we were There is a cost. We are now paying bent and bound and determined we about $4 million per year to keep these were going to keep them in our fleet in planes operational. We are going to be the air with a lot of the same actors that using these planes up until 2017 as we are still proponents for those types of wait for the new 802s to come off the planes. assembly line and get ready to be put We’ve had hard lessons in the past, so I into service. So we are going to keep do appreciate everyone supporting an them in the air for that length of time. interest in the fire program; we need to Right now, they are worth roughly $5 have good equipment. On this one, the million. In four years we expect that that department has made the case why it’s number is going to drop, it could be as necessary to divest ourselves of this. It much as 25 to 30 percent, and that’s for would add another $4 million or $5 all four of them. They have a diminishing million to our budget that we don’t have value, and if the avgas becomes even that we would have to take from harder to find, then that value may go somewhere. Would there be a down even more. We do have, as has consequential effect on available money been pointed out, a substantial parts list, to do other things? I would suggest, but that would be part of the deal as we most certainly. Thank you. looked at moving away from this. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, The other big piece I mentioned Minister Miltenberger. To the motion. yesterday, is these are not exportable, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Question. October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 51CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Question for fighting fires that are easily has been called. Motion is defeated. accessible by road. Thank you. ---Defeated CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Thank you, committee. Committee, we Mr. Campbell. Committee, on page 22, are going to continue on with forest management, infrastructure consideration for detail on forest investments, $8.720 million. Does management, Environment and Natural committee agree? Resources, page 22. Forest SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. management, infrastructure CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): investments, $8.720 million. Mr. Committee, if I can get you to turn to Bromley. page 24, wildlife, infrastructure MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. investments, $1.125 million. Does I am just wondering: I am not familiar committee agree? with wildland fire engine. If I can get SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. some understanding of that since I am supposed to be approving this budget. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Thank you. committee. If I can get you to return to page 17, Environment and Natural CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Resources, total infrastructure Mr. Bromley. With that we will go to investments, $11.343 million. Does Deputy Minister Campbell. committee agree? MR. CAMPBELL: My apologies, Mr. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Chair. I didn’t hear the question. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Does CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, committee agree we have concluded Mr. Campbell. We will go back to Mr. consideration of the Department of Bromley to repeat his question. Mr. Environment and Natural Resources? Bromley. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There is a new type 4 wildland fire CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, engine that is noted in the budget here committee. I’d like to thank Minister under our list of capital projects under Miltenberger today, and again our forest management. I am just not guests here, Mr. Campbell and Mr. familiar with what that is, so I wanted to Mawdsley. Thank you for joining us try and understand what that is before I today. With that, we’ll ask the Sergeant- approve its purchase. Thank you. at-Arms if he could please escort the witnesses out of the House. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Deputy Minister Campbell. Committee, as we agreed upon earlier, we’re going to continue here with the MR. CAMPBELL: Thank you, Mr. capital estimates under the Legislative Chair. That capital item is basically a fire Assembly. With that, we’ll go to the truck that will be capable of carrying a Speaker of the House, if he would like to crew with the initial attack configuration bring witnesses into the House. Speaker pump, 2,000 feet of hose, et cetera. And Jacobson. on top of that, the capability with a large water tank, as well; again, specifically HON. JACKIE JACOBSON: Yes, Mr. Chair. October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 52CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Speaker Jacobson. Does committee Mr. Bromley. Speaker Jacobson. agree? HON. JACKIE JACOBSON: Thank SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. you, Mr. Chair. For capital funding for CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, this year, the extra $150,000 is for the committee. Sergeant-at-Arms, if you accessibility betterments of our building could please bring the witnesses into here at the Assembly for access for the House. people with disabilities. It’s in a two-year plan that we’re doing, and the Speaker Jacobson, if you would like to betterments that we’re finishing off this introduce your witnesses to the House, year would make it accessible for the please. people with disabilities to have full HON. JACKIE JACOBSON: Thank access to the building. you, Mr. Chair. To my right I have Mr. MR. BROMLEY: So that difference Darrin Ouellette, and to my left I have between the $329,000 and $657,000 the Clerk of the Assembly, Mr. Tim was essentially accounted for by the Mercer. additional commitments to making the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, building accessible to those with Speaker Jacobson. Mr. Mercer and Mr. disabilities as I understand it. That’s all I Ouellette, welcome to the Chamber had then. again. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Committee, as we agreed upon earlier Mr. Bromley. I’ll take that as a comment. with convention, we will not do any Committee, again, page 8, Legislative opening comments. We’ll go directly to Assembly, Office of the Clerk, general comments. Does committee infrastructure investments, $150,000. agree that there are no general Does committee agree? comments and we can proceed to SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. detail? CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. committee. If I can get you to turn to CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): page 7, Legislative Assembly, total Committee, we will defer page 7 until infrastructure investments, $150,000. consideration of activities. Committee, Does committee agree? page 8, Legislative Assembly, Office of SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. the Clerk. Mr. Bromley. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Does MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. committee agree we have concluded I just had one question. I see there was consideration of the Legislative quite an increase from our capital Assembly? estimates last year, I guess, the current year that we’re in, ’14-15, from the figure SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. presented, $329,000 up to almost CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, double, and I’m just wondering if I can committee. I’d like to thank Speaker get an explanation of what accounts for Jacobson, Mr. Mercer and Mr. Ouellette the increase from $329,000 to $657,000 for joining us today. If I could get the there. October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 53Sergeant-at-Arms to please escort our HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: witnesses out of the Chamber. Yes, I do, Mr. Chair. Thank you. Committee, as agreed upon earlier CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, today, we’re going to continue on. We’re Minister Miltenberger. Sergeant-at-Arms, going to be doing Supplementary if you could please escort the witnesses Estimates (Operations Expenditures), into the House. Before we do that, sorry, No. 2, 2014-2015. This is Tabled does committee agree? Document 155-17(5). With that, we’ll go SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. to the Minister for opening remarks. Minister of Finance, Mr. Miltenberger. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, committee. Sergeant-at-Arms, if you HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: I could please escort the witnesses in. am here to present Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), Minister Miltenberger, if you could No. 2, 2014-2015. This document introduce your witnesses to the House, outlines an increase of $63.994 million please. in operations expenditures for the 2014- HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: 2015 fiscal year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have with The more significant items included in me Deputy Minister Mike Aumond and the supplementary estimates are: the director of the Management Board Secretariat, Olin Lovely. Thank you. 1. $47.4 million for the Department of Environment and Natural Resources CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, related to two special warrants that Minister Miltenberger. Mr. Lovely and were approved to address costs of Mr. Aumond, welcome to the House fire suppression during the extreme again this evening. With that, we’ll fire season this summer; proceed with general comments. Mr. Bouchard. 2. $20 million for the Department of Finance to mitigate the impact of MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. extreme low water conditions on the Chair. I guess I just have some concerns Snare Hydro System on NWT and I think most of them have to do with residents’ power costs; and the accelerated activity in the Tuk to Inuvik highway. Oh, this is in operations. 3. $770,000 for Education, Culture and Sorry. I thought we were on capital. Employment to fund startup costs Sorry. Go ahead. associated with the implementation of Junior Kindergarten and for CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, incremental costs associated with the committee. Yes, we are on Operations implementation of the Education Expenditures, No. 2. I’ll open the floor Renewal and Innovation Action Plan. again to general comments. I have Mr. Bromley. I am prepared to review the supplementary estimates document. MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I see this supp includes a special CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, warrant, which I appreciate. I think this is Minister Miltenberger. Minister an important opportunity, obviously, for Miltenberger, do you have witnesses us to be commenting on special you’d like to bring into the House? warrants when they come forward in October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 54 supps like this. It’s an important hundreds of millions of dollars. The opportunity for Members of this House impact of this, of course, will be felt to share their perspectives, and special reverberating through the 18th Assembly warrants, as we know, are expenditures and this is even before we get to supps that are made on an emergency basis on the capital expenditures. typically almost by definition when it has So I guess there’s nothing we can do to be done and we really can’t afford to about forest fires other than deal with go through the process of approval at climate change to try to get that sort of the time, but it does allow a thing in line. I don’t think we’ve been retrospective look at things and public doing a good job on that front. It does discussion, especially as in this one speak to that sort of thing even though where we have amounts like $47 we’re here to deal with dollars. What the million-plus. dollars reflect is whether or not we’re I note that there are at least two very doing a good job on other fronts. With significant expenditures that were totally climate change, of course, that reflects unexpected when we started the year. on governments around the world. Obviously, an amazing fire season, very We’re in line in terms of not dealing with costly and certainly extensive. So we’re it, despite our opportunity to play a real dealing with a supp here of $47 million leadership role here. Then, of course, to deal with that, $47.4 million. That’s an there’s the $20 million without any unexpected amount, and given that we discussion about how we might mitigate fight tooth and nail to come up with $15 those impacts through wiser million or $18 million for new initiatives expenditures. every year, that does put that $47 I just wanted to note my concerns in million… That’s about three years of case the Minister wasn’t aware of those. special initiatives, new initiative money I’m sure he was, but I think it’s important gone up in smoke. for the public that in fact this Then, of course, there’s the $20 million, government is throwing around, really, which we heard about earlier today, the by the time we’re done here, hundreds discussion about the complete lack of of millions of dollars in unexpected costs consultation with Members. Again, an and this is definitely going to be unexpected cost that we should have affecting our fiscal status and the 18th had input on, but a unilateral decision by Assembly and so on. I’m not going to be Cabinet to do that. Again, significant proud walking out the door if I don’t decision without being in line with our return next term and leave the 18th consensus government principles, but Assembly with some of the things that I an unexpected cost. So now we’re see coming down the pike because of dealing with this supp in this fiscal year these sorts of decisions. or the current fiscal year with $67.4 I’ll leave it at that as general comments. million of unexpected expenditures. Thank you. Now, that’s a very significant amount of money at any point in our history, but CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank particularly given our current fiscal you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Miltenberger. status. We’re trying to bump up our HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: borrowing limits wherever we can by Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 55 the Member’s concern and his routine business that we deal with comments. If you look at the whole fiscal because of some of these larger picture at the end of this Assembly or problems that we have not been where we currently are now, I would say effectively dealing with. That’s an alert while we have challenges, it’s not as that we need to maintain buffers and bleak as the Member would indicate and perhaps should contemplate larger we are doing an enormous amount of buffers, Given that we have seen in a very critical things like the $350 million year like this we can do in those buffers project at Stanton. We’re discussing a with one season’s events. $314 million capital plan, which we I appreciate the Minister’s perspectives. bumped up $50 million this year. So He is our Minister of Finance and I am there are enormous challenges for a commenting from the outside, but I am government this size, for a territory this commenting with seven years of trend in large with the demands as many and mind. I know others might have similar varied as they are. concerns. I will leave it at that, Mr. This Legislature has managed its way Chair. through some very trying and difficult HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: times balancing a lot of priorities, so as Once again, I appreciate the Member’s th we leave this 17 Assembly and for comments. I will just accept and thank those of us who are coming back or him for making them. Thank you. intending on coming back, you want to know that you aren’t going to leave the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Next I 18th Assembly hamstrung. I don’t think, have Ms. Bisaro. at the end of the day, they will be MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I hamstrung. They will have challenges, move that we report progress. but every government does. They will ---Carried have a lot of good things they are going CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): I will now to inherit as well. Thank you. rise and report progress. Thank you, MR. BROMLEY: I appreciate the Minister. Thanks, witnesses. Sergeant- Minister’s perspective there and I know at-Arms, please escort the witnesses he has the same perspective as me in out of the Chamber. Thank you. the long run. What it also means is we’re giving up the opportunity for 11) Report of Committee of the Whole services to people and for doing a better job at dealing with the cost of living, et MR. SPEAKER: Good evening. Can I cetera. We have a record for continually have the report of Committee of the going back to big daddy to raise our Whole, Mr. Bouchard? borrowing limit and so on, and we don’t MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. seem to pay much attention to those. Speaker. Your committee has been We try to have a $100 million buffer, and considering Tabled Document 115- that’s starting to disintegrate because of 17(5), Northwest Territories Capital these sorts of decisions and unexpected Estimates 2015-2016; and Tabled costs. Document 155-17(5), Supplementary The alert, I think, is unexpected costs Estimates (Operations Expenditures), are becoming an expected part of the No. 2, 2014-2015, and would like to October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 56 report progress. Mr. Speaker, I move - Bill 25, An Act to Amend the that the report of Committee of the Education Act Whole be concurred with. Thank you. - Bill 27, Miscellaneous Statute Law MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Amendment Act, 2014 Bouchard. Do I have a seconder to the - Bill 29, Human Tissue Donation motion? Mr. Blake. Act ---Carried - Bill 30, An Act to Amend the Public Item 22, third reading of bills. Mr. Clerk, Service Act orders of the day. - Bill 32, An Act to Amend the Pharmacy Act 12) Orders of the Day - Bill 33, An Act to Amend the CLERK OF THE HOUSE (Mr. Mercer): Elections and Plebiscites Act, No. Orders of the day for Wednesday, 2 October 29, 2014, at 1:30 p.m.: - Committee Report 7-17(5), Report 1. Prayer on the Development of the 2. Ministers’ Statements Economic Opportunities and Mineral Development Strategies 3. Members’ Statements - Tabled Document 115-17(5), 4. Returns to Oral Questions Northwest Territories Capital 5. Recognition of Visitors in the Estimates 2015-2016 Gallery - Tabled Document 154-17(5), 6. Acknowledgements Supplementary Estimates 7. Oral Questions (Infrastructure Expenditure), No. 4, 2014-2015 8. Written Questions - Tabled Document 155-17(5), 9. Returns to Written Questions Supplementary Estimates 10.Replies to Opening Address (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 11.Petitions 2014-2015 12.Reports of Standing and Special 21.Report of Committee of the Committees Whole 13.Reports of Committees on the 22.Third Reading of Bills Review of Bills 23.Orders of the Day 14.Tabling of Documents MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Clerk. 15.Notices of Motion Accordingly, this House stands 16.Notices of Motion for First adjourned until Wednesday, October th Reading of Bills 29 , at 1:30 p.m. 17.Motions ---ADJOURNMENT 18.First Reading of Bills The House adjourned at 5:01 p.m. 19.Second Reading of Bills 20.Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters October 28, 2014 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 57

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