Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page

Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 77 1 Tuesday, 4th April 20002 [Open session]3 [The accused entered court]4 [The witness entered court]5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.6 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the registrar please call7 the case.8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number9 IT-96-23-T and IT-96-23/1, the Prosecutor versus10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. You are12 still under solemn declaration. We are continuing with13 cross-examination by Mr. Kolesar.14 Mr. Kolesar, yesterday I gave you 1515 minutes. This morning I'm giving you 10 minutes.16 Mr. Kolesar, please.17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,18 and Honourable Judges, before I go on to my questions,19 I have an observation to make which can be counted in20 my 10-minute time. I wish to inform you that we have a21 technical problem linked to the preparations of the22 Defence.23 At the Pre-Trial Conference on the 2nd of24 March, it was agreed that we would get the transcript25 by the end of the working day. However, that has notTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 78 1 proven to be the case in practice. We have informed2 the Registrar, Ms. de Sampayo, of this, and I take3 advantage of this opportunity to inform the Trial4 Chamber of the same.5 A second point: You have reduced my time by6 another five minutes. Of course, that is your right7 and I will respect your decision, but the practice so8 far has been to make sure that the trial should be fair9 and equitable, that the Defence should be entitled to10 the same amount of time for the cross-examination as11 the Prosecution has for its direct examination. We12 have not up till now abused the time of the Court. On13 the contrary; we have done our best to share the14 questions that we, as the Defence, have for the15 witnesses, and thereby to shorten the time we need and16 avoid any repetition. That is what I wish to say for17 the transcript, and if I may, I shall now go on with18 the cross-examination.19 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you go on, Mr. Kolesar,20 let me clear the transcript problem. I would like to21 find out from the Prosecution whether they are getting22 the transcripts for each day at the end of the day.23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour. We24 have the same problem; we don't get it at all. So I,25 for instance, when I proceeded with 75 yesterday, ITuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 79 1 didn't have the transcript from Thursday, so I have2 that same problem.3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Judges have the same4 problem. We are also wondering why we were not getting5 transcripts at the end of the day, particularly that we6 are rising at 1600 hours. So I don't know whether the7 Registry's representative can assist us.8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Indeed, for9 the moment, it is impossible to provide the Chamber,10 the Prosecution, or the Defence with a complete11 transcript of the hearings on the same day, for12 technical reasons. The Registrar wishes to produce the13 best possible result, and therefore it needs to compare14 the French transcript with the English transcript to15 have the same numbering of pages, and I'm sure that the16 Chamber is fully conscious of the importance of these17 numbers during the judgement stage. Therefore, we are18 unable to provide a copy of the transcript of the same19 day in paper form, but it is always possible for the20 parties to transfer the transcript, with the help of a21 laptop computer, on a diskette. We can only provide22 the transcript the next day, especially as the French23 transcript comes from Canada and cannot be produced in24 a speedier form, and we have to compare the two before25 distributing them.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 80 1 JUDGE MUMBA: The technicalities have been2 explained. It is easy to get -- every counsel has3 access to a laptop, I take it, and the Registry's4 assistant has explained how you can get the transcript,5 the English one, because that's the one we are6 getting. And you must understand that it is not7 edited. So you can get what is there, what is written8 there, unedited. You can get copies for each day9 through your laptop.10 [Trial Chamber deliberates]11 JUDGE MUMBA: And coming to the time,12 Mr. Kolesar, yes, it is understood that the Defence13 must be given equal time to the Prosecution, but that14 does not mean asking questions unnecessarily long; and15 when I told you that I'm limiting my time to 10 minutes16 this morning, I just want you to understand that you17 have to ask your questions within a limited time. So18 I'm not counting 10 minutes from the time that you19 stood on your feet, because we've discussed other20 things, and I'm now giving you time to cross-examine21 and finish your cross-examination, no time limit.22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your23 Honour, but I will abide by your decision of 1024 minutes.25 WITNESS: WITNESS 75 [Resumed]Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 81 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar 1 [Witness answered through interpreter]2 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar: [Cont'd]3 Q. Witness, yesterday we adjourned when we were4 trying to count up how much time you spent in Kovac's5 apartment in the building close to the Zelengora Hotel6 and in the building near Masala, and we agreed that7 that was 55 days.8 A. We did not agree. I said that I didn't know9 for sure. What I said was approximate.10 Q. Yes, but you confirmed that what you stated11 in your statements was the truth.12 A. I'm saying again that I'm not quite sure. I13 didn't count the days, and that is what I said then and14 what I'm saying again now.15 Q. Could it be 55 days?16 A. I don't know.17 Q. On the assumption that it was 55 days, that18 would end with the 25th of December. Would that be19 so?20 A. I don't remember.21 Q. That would be the 25th of December. Can you22 agree with that?23 A. I said I don't remember. I can't tell you24 when I don't remember. I simply can't say when it25 was. I can't remember and that's it.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 82 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar 1 Q. In the second half of December, you were2 still in Foca; is that correct?3 A. Yes.4 Q. Do you know that in the second half of5 December, around St. Nicholas' Day, which I think is an6 Orthodox holiday, but I think you know when that is,7 that Foca was attacked?8 A. I don't remember.9 Q. You don't remember that the alarms went off10 and that the fighting started in Foca?11 A. I don't know. I didn't hear it. In the12 studio in which I was detained, there was no radio or13 television, nor could I hear anything.14 Q. But the shooting could have been heard15 regardless of the radio or the television.16 A. I didn't hear it. I just heard them shooting17 when they were celebrating something like the New Year18 or Christmas. That is when I heard the shooting in19 town. I heard nothing other than that.20 Q. Do you know where Klanfa was then? Was he on21 the front?22 A. I don't know.23 Q. Do you know that he was wounded around about24 then?25 A. I don't know.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 83 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar 1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] If the witness2 continues in this way, I won't even need the ten3 minutes allotted me.4 Q. You have stated here in court, in connection5 with your expulsion from the apartment and forcing6 towards the Drina, that Kovac forced you naked to the7 Drina, and when you got there, Jagos Kostic arrived,8 took you back to the apartment, and then he threw you9 out again to the confluence of the Cehotina and the10 Drina. Is that correct?11 A. I don't think you read it properly, nor12 understood it properly. As far as I can recollect,13 when he evicted us from Tuta's flat and forced us14 towards Masala, he stripped us there and forced us in15 front of the building. Then he took us back into the16 apartment, forced us to get dressed, and then he chased17 us out by the municipality building towards the18 Cehotina and Drina River, threatening to slit our19 throats. You should have read that more carefully.20 Q. Will you please be more polite, as I am21 trying my best to treat you with politeness.22 A. I think I'm treating you sufficiently well.23 Q. Will you look at page 14 of your statement to24 the investigators of the Tribunal. Page 14. Second25 paragraph, about the middle. Will you read theTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 84 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English and13 French transcripts14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 85 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar 1 sentence, the one but last, beginning with: "He forced2 us to ..."3 A. "He forced us to go to the Cehotina and Drina4 confluence. At that time, Jagos arrived, exchanged a5 few words with Klanfa, and took us back to the flat."6 Q. Thank you. Now, will you find the statement7 that you gave to the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina,8 page 9, 15 rows from the top.9 A. I don't have it here in front of me.10 Q. You had it yesterday.11 A. But I don't have it now.12 JUDGE HUNT: May I just suggest that you read13 it to her yourself.14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your15 Honour.16 Q. "He forced us naked out of the building. In17 front of the building he met Jagos Kostic, had a short18 conversation with him, and then he took us back to the19 apartment to get dressed. After we got dressed, he20 took us out again and led us past the municipality21 building, past the bridge on the Drina, holding an22 automatic rifle and a knife in his hands, saying that23 he would slit our throats. We couldn't approach the24 Drina, so he took us to the place where Cehotina and25 the Drina meet, the locality called Sastovci. JagosTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 86 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar 1 Kostic ran after us, with whom he had a short2 conversation again. Then he slapped us and said that3 we should go back to his apartment in the Lepa Brena4 building to clean up the flat and later he would see5 what he would do with us."6 Is that what you said?7 A. Yes.8 Q. Explain to me, in view of these two9 statements that you made and what you said here in10 court, when you were beaten and mistreated on this11 occasion.12 A. When we were forced towards Masala and when13 we were brought back from the Drina to the apartment.14 Q. Did you pass by the municipality?15 A. Yes, we did.16 Q. Did you pass by the SUP?17 A. We did.18 Q. Didn't anyone try to protect you?19 A. Oh, really. They were ridiculing us, the20 people who were watching. Who do you think would21 protect us?22 Q. Let us go back once again to page 13 of your23 statement to the investigators of the Tribunal. You24 said, the one but last paragraph, you say: "For the25 first two or three days Klanfa raped all of us, andTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 87 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar 1 then he took AB and AS, whereas they left 87 alone and2 nothing happened to her. Then one night Klanfa3 brought ..." and so on and so forth.4 A. As far as I can see, the difference is in the5 translation only. There's no major difference.6 Q. Here in court you gave a completely different7 description of the events regarding your arrival in the8 Brena building and the apartment used by Kovac and the9 sequence of the rapes was described by you10 differently.11 A. I said, and I say again, that I cannot12 recollect all the incidents and all the details today.13 Q. To the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina,14 you said you were there for some 20 days and that all15 three of you were raped constantly: "That Jagos first16 slept with AS, some 20 days later Klanfa took for17 himself 87, whereas he told me and AB that we should go18 to some people from Serbia."19 So you have three different statements on20 important incidents.21 A. The first one is the most correct, the one22 that I gave to the investigators of the Tribunal. That23 is the most correct one. I cannot remember each and24 every detail as to what I said now and what I am saying25 now.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 88 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar 1 Q. At one point in the course of your testimony,2 during the cross-examination yesterday, you stated that3 you came here to judge. I'm sorry we don't have the4 transcript so we can check on this. Is that what you5 said?6 A. Possibly.7 Q. Who do you need to judge and are you the8 person to judge?9 A. I am not the person who should judge anyone.10 I am the person who should testify.11 Q. Will you agree with me that jealousy is a12 psychological state, when a person imbued by is ready13 to do certain things which people which are not imbued14 by jealousy would not consider doing?15 A. I'm afraid I don't understand that question16 at all. What are you talking about? What do you mean17 by jealousy?18 Q. I'm referring to the fact that you said that19 after four or five days, Klanfa rejected you. I said20 yesterday that in my understanding, when a man rejects21 a woman, it is usually a person he loves and not a22 person who has been raped.23 A. How could I possibly be Klanfa's beloved?24 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation25 continues] ... after listening to the evidence of thisTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 89 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English and14 French transcripts15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 90 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar 1 witness and her explanation yesterday and what she2 meant by the term "reject," I don't think we should3 waste time on that. Please proceed with other4 questions.5 A. Only dead, not even dead, could I be Klanfa's6 beloved, or any one of theirs. That's all I could say.7 JUDGE MUMBA: Don't bother, Witness. Don't8 waste your energy.9 Mr. Kolesar, please.10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I11 have some more questions, but my 10-minute time limit12 has expired, and I will break off my cross-examination.13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, you know that your14 client is facing serious offences.15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your16 Honour.17 JUDGE MUMBA: Go ahead and finish your18 cross-examination.19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I20 have finished my cross-examination.21 JUDGE MUMBA: Are you sure?22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Absolutely.23 JUDGE MUMBA: Your client is looking at you.24 You understand that?25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I doTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 91 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 understand, Your Honour. I have a note from him. It's2 a question that has been already discussed, and I don't3 want to repeat myself. But of course you can ask my4 client.5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.6 Mr. Jovanovic, any questions?7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your8 Honour. With your permission, I would have several9 questions. Thank you.10 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:11 Q. Good morning. I shall try and be as12 expeditious as possible. Madam, do you still claim13 that you didn't know Zoran Vukovic before the war?14 A. Yes.15 Q. Did you know any members of his family?16 A. No.17 Q. Did you perhaps give information about Zoran18 Vukovic and members of his family to other witnesses19 regarding information such as where they work, what20 kind of activity they engage in, and so on?21 A. No.22 Q. Was a photo album ever shown to you when you23 were asked to identify Zoran Vukovic?24 A. I don't know.25 Q. Did you manage to identify Zoran Vukovic onTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 92 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 that occasion?2 A. I did not.3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like4 to ask the usher for his assistance, to help us.5 JUDGE MUMBA: And Counsel, be slow. The6 interpreters, please.7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,8 this is a document that we received from the9 Prosecution, and it is linked to a photo spread shown10 to this witness, and another witness, whose name I will11 not mention, for the purpose of identification of Zoran12 Vukovic. Unfortunately, I have no additional copies.13 I didn't have a chance of copying them, because the14 machine wasn't working until two minutes prior to the15 beginning of the hearing. So I'm just asking the16 witness whether she can identify this photo spread.17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Is it18 document 60 of the Prosecution, Prosecution Exhibit19 number 60?20 JUDGE MUMBA: She's asking you, Counsel.21 Maybe the Prosecution can help us.22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution Exhibit23 number 60, which was not used, actually, entered into24 evidence, is a photo spread referring to a photo spread25 ID procedure related to Dragoljub Kunarac. TheTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 93 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 Prosecution never showed any photo spread to this2 witness of Zoran Vukovic.3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,5 I didn't say that the Prosecution had shown this6 document, but that an attempt had been made at7 identification by other bodies. I just said that we8 were given this document by the Prosecution. I didn't9 say that the Prosecution showed it to the witness.10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That is clear. So you go11 ahead with your cross-examination. Yes.12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the13 Prosecution also wants to see it.14 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. Before it is shown to15 the witness, can the Prosecution see it? Actually, if16 we had enough copies, that's what we like; also the17 Bench also sees it before the questions are put.18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But this is still the19 Prosecution Exhibit number 60. That's not what you are20 referring to.21 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher get that and show22 it to the Prosecution first? Let them see whether they23 have a similar document. Now, tell us what it is.24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution has that25 same document, and it is -- we received it recentlyTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 94 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 from the Bosnian government. When the witness was2 there in Sarajevo doing a photo ID on a certain other3 person, she was also shown several other photos4 related -- and one of them was related to the accused5 Zoran Vukovic.6 JUDGE MUMBA: So what is that?7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's a document without8 any report. It's a document from the Bosnian9 government, referring to a photo ID proceeding they10 conducted with the witness.11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Not the Prosecution with12 the witness.13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the witness.14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's what I wanted to15 clarify. Yes. So now it can be shown to the witness.16 Yes, you can go ahead, Counsel.17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]18 Q. Were you able to recognise and identify Zoran19 Vukovic on that occasion?20 A. Roughly, but I wasn't sure.21 Q. Thank you.22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have it numbered for23 identification purposes?24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document25 will be D28, Defence Exhibit D28.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 95 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 JUDGE MUMBA: It is not yet admitted into2 evidence; right?3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your4 Honour; I understand that.5 Q. Would you please assist me now, madam, in6 clarifying the appearance and disappearance of Zoran7 Vukovic in your statements. The exhibit admitted as8 D24, a statement given between the 15th and 18th of9 November, 1995, in that statement you mention the10 accused Zoran Vukovic only in one sentence; is that11 correct?12 A. Possibly.13 Q. The statement admitted as Exhibit D25, a14 statement given by you to the Investigation and15 Documentation Agency, in that statement you make no16 mention at all of Zoran Vukovic, not a single word; is17 that correct?18 A. I don't know. I don't remember.19 Q. Did you make that statement?20 A. Perhaps I did, but maybe I didn't remember at21 the time.22 Q. Let me refresh your memory that in that23 statement you mentioned more than 80 names and24 nicknames of various people.25 A. Correct.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 96 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 Q. But only Zoran Vukovic is missing.2 A. Possibly.3 Q. Thank you. The statement admitted as Exhibit4 D23, in that statement Zoran Vukovic is not mentioned5 either. It's a statement given to the Prosecution.6 Will you agree with that?7 A. I don't really know what it says. I don't8 remember.9 Q. Let me remind you that you made those10 statements between November 1995 and March 1998, those11 that I have just referred to. So we come to a rather12 interesting point. As the trial approaches, Zoran13 Vukovic appears more and more often. On the 24th of14 September, 1999, did you tell the investigator, Robert15 Kempf that Radomir Kovac brought Vukovic for the16 purpose of rape and that this occurred when you were17 taken to the 4th floor of the Zelengora Hotel, and all18 this happened during your detention in the apartment in19 Foca?20 A. I was already in the apartment when Klanfa21 brought Vukovic. I didn't say --22 Q. There seems to be a misunderstanding. My23 question is: Is that what you told the investigator,24 Robert Kempf on the 24th of September, 1999? Will you25 answer that question?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 97 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 A. I don't remember when I said what.2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,3 could I ask the usher for his assistance in4 distributing these documents? This is for the witness,5 in Serbo-Croatian, and this is the English version for6 the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution. This is the7 English version, and the first document is the8 Serbo-Croat version.9 JUDGE MUMBA: Which statement?10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,11 these are parts of a memorandum that we received from12 the Prosecution immediately prior to the trial and in13 the course of the trial regarding contact that the14 Prosecution had with the witness. I'm trying to15 establish whether those citations are truthful, and16 that is why I am asking these questions. So I should17 like the witness to see them first, and then we can18 proceed with the questions.19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document20 will be D29, Defence Exhibit D29.21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]22 Q. Do you remember the event now?23 A. Yes, I do, but not like this. It must be an24 error in translation.25 Q. Thank you.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 98 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,2 I should like to tender this and have it admitted into3 evidence.4 A. Because I was already on the 4th floor when5 he brought him to the apartment. He did not take me to6 the 4th floor.7 Q. Let us clarify something. I did not give any8 of those statements, I have only read those statements,9 and that is why I'm asking the questions.10 JUDGE MUMBA: There is no objection, I take11 it, so it's admitted into evidence. It retains the12 same number.13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]14 Q. On the 17th of March, 2000, three days before15 the start of this trial, did you tell the people16 working in the Prosecution that Zoran Vukovic17 identified himself to you as the individual who had18 killed your uncle?19 THE INTERPRETER: A little slower, please,20 counsel.21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for22 warning me. Let me repeat.23 Q. On the 17th of March, 2000, three days prior24 to the commencement of trial, did you tell individuals25 working in the OTP that Zoran Vukovic himselfTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 99 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 identified himself as the individual who killed your2 uncle, without mentioning on that same occasion any3 sexual abuse and that all this took place in the4 co-accused's apartment, Kovac? Is that true?5 A. Yes, it is.6 Q. Thank you.7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,8 I should now like to show a document. It is a9 memorandum, once again, which we received from the10 Prosecution. I have sufficient copies of it, both in11 English and in the Serbian version. So with your12 permission, I should like to show this to my learned13 colleagues and to tender it into evidence.14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document15 dated 17 March 2000 will be D30, Defence Exhibit D30.16 JUDGE MUMBA: I take it there's no objection17 to it being admitted. Okay.18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]19 Q. In your testimony before this Tribunal on the20 30th of March, 2000, these two events -- you seem to21 say that these two events were taking place at the same22 place at the same time. Can you tell us which of these23 three things that I have put to you now is true? I24 can't hear you, Witness.25 A. This is true.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 100 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 Q. Which?2 A. This one.3 Q. Which one? I can't see from here.4 A. On the 17th of March, 2000.5 Q. If I understand you correctly, that is the6 truth. The rest is not the truth. Is that right?7 A. Well, it's all more or less the same, but it8 depends how it was translated, and I can't go into9 that.10 Q. So we have an error in the translation, do11 we? Very well. Let's continue.12 Let us now go back for a moment to the time13 you were brought to Buk Bijela. I should like to14 clarify the following, but let me ask you a question15 before that. Was that the first time that you saw16 Zoran Vukovic, in Buk Bijela, in fact?17 A. Yes.18 Q. Thank you. Having ascertained that, let us19 clear up where you saw Zoran Vukovic for the first time20 in your life, and I'm going to offer you two variants.21 The first is Exhibit 24, page 5, on the road to the22 huts when you were being taken off, or the testimony23 before the Court on the 30th of March, 2000, and it is24 transcript page 1387, line 25 and page 1388, line 1.25 That is the second variant where you say that thisTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 101 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 occurred within the same hut when you were taken from2 one premises to the other. So as one of the premises3 was closed, a closed space and the other an open space,4 which of these two proposals, variants are correct?5 A. It is correct that they took me out of one6 hut, and when I was taken out of this one hut, Zoran7 Vukovic passed right by me with my uncle.8 Q. Does that mean that the testimony you gave9 before this Trial Chamber is not the truth?10 A. Yes, it is. Everything I said is correct.11 And taking me off to the second entrance of the same12 hut.13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,14 I think that it would be helpful to us all if the15 witness would answer -- stick to answering my questions16 alone. This would speed up matters considerably.17 Thank you.18 Q. There are two quite different things. One19 thing that the event take place outside in the open,20 and the second that it takes place indoors.21 A. As far as I remember, it was an open space.22 When they took me out of one premises, outside, that is23 when I encountered Zoran Vukovic with my uncle. From24 there they took us to another entrance.25 Q. Let me remind you --Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 102 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, always wait until the2 witness finishes the answer.3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,4 Your Honours.5 Q. If I understand what you're saying, the6 following is true: "Then a soldier took me to another7 hut. On the way there, I passed by Zoran Vukovic and8 my uncle." We're not going to mention his name. That9 is correct, is it? Why then did you testify10 differently here?11 A. I don't remember having said anything12 different.13 Q. Thank you. Did you recount this occurrence14 to anybody?15 A. Possibly.16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] So I need17 your assistance once again, the usher, please. With18 the help of the usher, I'm going as though you know the19 name of a witness. Please tell me if you know that20 individual or not.21 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you repeat the question,22 counsel? Can you repeat the question?23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]24 Q. Does the witness know this individual?25 A. Yes.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 103 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 Q. Is that the wife of the individual who was2 killed at Buk Bijela?3 A. That is correct.4 Q. Did you tell that person, whose name you've5 just read, what happened in Buk Bijela?6 A. Correct.7 Q. Did you state the following: "Zoran Vukovic8 and Zoran Vilota were still with him, but my husband's9 face was covered in blood. She saw that his ears had10 been cut off. She told me that they had taken my11 husband off to the River Drina and had thrown him into12 the river. She saw Zoran Vukovic shooting at him when13 he had fallen into the river. She asked him why he had14 done that, and he answered that it was only an old15 man." Did you, in fact, say that or not?16 A. Yes.17 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, slow down,18 please.19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.20 Q. And you saw all this and this actually21 happened as you recounted it?22 A. No, I didn't see it. I saw what my uncle23 looked like. But Vukovic later on himself told me,24 because he thought we'd never leave the place alive, so25 nobody would get to know that. So that's why he couldTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 104 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between the14 English and French transcripts15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 105 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 say all these things.2 Q. If I understand you correctly, you know3 something. From that you make up -- compose the4 situation as to how you think it occurred and then you5 recount that; is that right?6 A. Well, when I saw what my uncle looked like --7 Q. Just one moment, please. Did you see Zoran8 Vukovic shoot fire at your --9 A. No, I didn't. But he told me that he got him10 in the middle of the Drina because he was trying,11 allegedly, to escape and then he shot at him.12 Q. I read you a passage and asked you whether it13 is correct. From this here, we can assume that you14 have direct knowledge as to how the event took place.15 So that is what I'm asking you. Do you or do you not?16 As to what Zoran Vukovic asked you or told you, we'll17 come to that later on. All I'm asking you is this18 particular fact now.19 A. Yes.20 Q. You said that. Thank you.21 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number for22 that?23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document24 will be D31, Defence Exhibit.25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. It is admitted, soTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 106 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 that the record is clear, under seal.2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,3 I omitted to say that this document has already been4 admitted into evidence as D14. If you take a look, you5 will find that D14 has already been admitted. So I do6 apologise to the Trial Chamber and the Registry. It7 has already been admitted as D14.8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let the Registry9 confirm.10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document11 D14 was a statement by a protected witness, dated the12 8th and 11th of September. So it is a different13 document from what has just been given to us. The14 document is the piece of paper with the name of that15 protected witness, and it will bear the number 31.16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That17 was a misunderstanding. I was thinking of a different18 document.19 Q. Could you tell me, please: That particular20 moment when you saw your relative, how long did that21 last?22 A. Well, it didn't last more than a couple of23 seconds. We just passed each other by.24 Q. How many people were there around your25 relative at that particular point?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 107 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 A. I don't know. I don't remember.2 Q. What position was Zoran Vukovic standing in3 relation to you and your uncle?4 A. Correct.5 Q. I didn't understand your answer.6 A. I said correct, he was standing. He was7 walking with him, because we were not able to stop and8 talk.9 Q. I asked you: What was Zoran Vukovic's10 position in relation to you and your relative?11 A. I don't know. I don't remember.12 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, sometimes it is13 important to explain what you mean by your question,14 because the witness may not understand. Sometimes it15 is important to explain.16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your17 Honour. It was my intention, by asking this question,18 to ascertain the possibility of identification; that is19 to say, the witness's identification with respect to20 the accused. I wanted to have the witness answer how21 long this moment of contact lasted, what the22 circumstances of it were, what other individuals were23 in the vicinity, to see if in the normal run of events24 it was possible, in these few seconds, which is the25 time that the witness says this lasted, that thereTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 108 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 should be a positive identification, especially as that2 individual, as the witness has told us, saw her for the3 first time -- she saw him for the first time on that4 occasion in her lifetime, as she herself has said.5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]7 Q. Immediately prior to seeing Zoran Vukovic and8 your relative, what happened to you?9 A. I've already said that.10 Q. Is it correct to say that you were being11 taken away after questioning to another premises?12 A. Yes.13 Q. After that interview which you had, how did14 you feel?15 A. I think that I said that as well.16 Q. Could you please repeat and tell me again,17 because I can't remember everything.18 A. How could I have felt? I felt terrible. I19 felt half dead.20 Q. So you were half dead, and for several21 seconds you see your relative in a group of other22 individuals and you happen to recognise Zoran Vukovic.23 A. I apologise. There was no rape there. This24 was a meeting before. It was before I was raped. And25 I think that that is what I say quite clearly in myTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 109 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 statement.2 Q. Well, if we can look at the transcript, I say3 "interview" or "examination," and not "rape."4 A. Well, I thought you meant how I felt -- I was5 saying how I felt after the rape, not after the6 interrogation.7 Q. I would appreciate it if you would pay8 attention to what I'm actually asking you. I asked you9 the following question: How did you feel,10 psychologically speaking, after the interrogation that11 took place in order to determine whether there were any12 weapons, where the men were, and things like that,13 things you were asked during that interview?14 A. I was shocked.15 Q. Thank you. I just have two or three brief16 questions connected to an event which took place during17 the night when the Aladza mosque was destroyed, and my18 questions are the following: On that particular night19 you were taken off in a car to an apartment near20 Aladza; is that correct?21 A. Yes, it is.22 Q. Was Zoran Vukovic in that car?23 A. I don't know. I don't remember.24 Q. Do you remember who was in the car?25 A. Zaga and Gaga. I remember that.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 110 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 Q. And how many of you from Partizan?2 A. Four.3 Q. That makes six in all, six people?4 A. Yes. I don't know exactly. I'm not quite5 sure.6 Q. What car was it?7 A. I think it was the one -- what's it called?8 Pezeac. It was referred to as Pezeac. It had no9 exhaust pipe.10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] As the Trial11 Chamber and my colleagues from the Prosecution do not12 know the type of cars and the type referred to as13 Pezeac --14 A. Zaga drove it.15 Q. Well, would you say it was a large car?16 A. No.17 Q. A small car?18 A. I forget the make.19 Q. Thank you.20 A. I know that they just called it the Pezeac.21 Q. Thank you. Was that the first time that you22 went to Aladza?23 A. No, it was not.24 Q. Thank you. I have just a few more questions,25 if you agree, in respect to the apartment where, as youTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 111 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 say, you were detained. The term you used, "brought,"2 when you say, "Radomir Kovac brought Zoran Vukovic," do3 you imply that the two of them came together?4 A. Well, I don't know. I don't remember.5 Q. You don't remember whether they came together6 at that particular moment to the apartment?7 A. I don't remember.8 Q. Very well. Why were you in the kitchen?9 Were you ordered to be there; and if so, who ordered10 you? How did you come to be in the kitchen?11 A. Well, quite certainly it wasn't of my own12 free will. Ask Klanfa. He knows it full well.13 Q. Well, from that I conclude that it was he who14 ordered you to go to the kitchen.15 A. That's right.16 Q. So he ordered you to go to the kitchen with17 Zoran Vukovic?18 A. That's right.19 Q. Do you recall, perhaps, the words that he20 used on that occasion?21 A. No, I don't.22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,23 I'm asking this question because in her portion of the24 statement, where the witness describes the situation25 and says how she came -- that Zoran Vukovic identifiedTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 112 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 himself as the individual who had killed her uncle, the2 witness says, "I think after he had heard my name."3 And it is precisely for that reason that I'm asking4 these questions: to learn at what particular moment5 and how it was that Zoran Vukovic came to learn that he6 had in front of him such-and-such a person, who was the7 relative of such-and-such.8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]10 Q. As far as I have understood, you do not11 recall that Radomir Kovac said that, and I'll12 paraphrase, that "XY, you're now going to the kitchen13 with Zoran Vukovic." He didn't name you. He did not14 use your full name and surname so that you can be15 identified in that fashion.16 A. I don't know. I don't remember.17 Q. When you went into the kitchen, did you18 introduce yourself to Zoran Vukovic?19 A. I don't remember that either.20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.21 In the transcript, page 1450, lines 24 and 25, Your22 Honours, we have a description of a conversation23 between the witness and the accused.24 Q. If I understood you correctly, Witness, you25 were talking about the living and the dead.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 113 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 A. That's right, yes.2 Q. After that, the conversation turned to a more3 concrete detail, that is to say, the killing of your4 relative.5 A. Correct.6 Q. Zoran Vukovic identified himself as being the7 person to have killed your relative by shooting at8 him.9 A. That is correct. All the details of how this10 happened, I cannot remember, but I only remember the11 detail when he said that he came to the middle of the12 Drina River and that he shot at him then, when he13 started fleeing across the River Drina. But I don't14 remember all the details.15 Q. But you know that he did not kill him by16 shooting at him?17 A. Well, no, he didn't, and I suppose he's still18 alive. Is that what you mean? If he was alive, he19 would have contacted me.20 Q. I didn't mean that your relative was alive or21 not, but do you know that the death of your relative22 did not occur through a gun wound but in another way?23 A. I don't know.24 Q. Well, let me remind you. The same page of25 the transcript, the same lines, you said that you knowTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 114 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 that your uncle was -- that his throat was slit. That2 is an extremely brutal act.3 A. I didn't state that. I assumed that.4 Because when I heard him scream in Buk Bijela, and the5 amount of beating he got, all his screams, I was able6 to hear, and so I presumed that his throat had been7 slit, because those up there, our people up there who8 were killed, the seven or eight of them, were9 slaughtered as well, so I assumed that.10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,11 these seem to be very strange situations, and may I12 tell you the point of my questioning and the point of13 asking the witness how her relative lost his life? I14 won't take up too much of your valuable time, Your15 Honours.16 JUDGE MUMBA: Go ahead.17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.18 The point of my questions is the following: The19 witness, in all manner of ways, regardless of what20 actually happened, is endeavouring and is telling us21 about extreme brutalities that happen generally, so22 that all of us listening to her here can gain an23 impression as to the things that took place there. My24 question was asked precisely for that reason. And let25 me remind the witness of a statement she made and whichTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 115 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 she maintains to be correct, and that is Exhibit 24, I2 believe. It is the statement taken in 1995.3 Q. At the end of your statement you say, "While4 I was raped, I heard my uncle shouting outside. First5 I heard a shot and then silence. At that moment I knew6 that he had been killed." At that moment you know that7 he was killed by a firearm, and then later on you know8 that his throat was slit.9 A. I didn't say I knew; I said that I assumed10 after the cries I heard. Because they were shooting11 all the time. It wasn't just then; they were shooting12 all the time.13 Q. Thank you. You will agree with me that it is14 rather painful to discuss the dead and the living and15 the way in which somebody was killed, in this16 particular case, your relative, whom you assume was17 killed in an extremely brutal way. I assume that you18 didn't feel very well when talking about it.19 A. How could I feel? Perhaps I should have been20 singing.21 Q. From your statement, I also see that Zoran22 Vukovic wasn't feeling too well after this talk with23 you, so he needed your assistance in order to be able24 to rape you.25 A. Yes, correct.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 116 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 Q. Would you describe Zoran Vukovic as an2 emotional killer, slaughterer, and rapist?3 A. Yes.4 Q. Several times so far you have said, and5 confirmed, that your memory was better earlier on than6 it is today, which is quite normal, isn't it?7 A. Yes.8 Q. Explain to us, then, how, in the case of9 Zoran Vukovic, and only in his case, your memory10 becomes better as time passes; the more time passes,11 the more you recollect.12 A. I don't believe so. As time passes, I try to13 forget and to delete from my memory these things.14 Q. Yes, but until 1999, Zoran Vukovic doesn't15 exist in your statements at all, only in one sentence;16 and then later on he is said to have raped you, that he17 identified himself as a killer, and so on.18 A. That is correct. Perhaps I couldn't remember19 all the details at the time when I was speaking to20 whoever, because there are many of them that I21 recollect, though I didn't mention them at the time.22 Q. The name "Zoran Vukovic," does it arouse any23 special emotional response when you hear the word24 "Zoran Vukovic"?25 A. Not just Zoran Vukovic, but each and everyTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 117 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 13 the English and French transcripts14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 118 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic 1 one of them.2 Q. My question is Zoran Vukovic.3 A. Yes. The very thought of him makes me sick.4 Q. Let me make a digression before I ask my last5 question, and that is: In addition to Zoran Vukovic,6 who has been accused here, the witness has mentioned7 another Zoran Vukovic, whose nicknamed is Kifla, if I'm8 not mistaken.9 THE INTERPRETER: Witness says, "Correct."10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] My question11 is directed as follows: Zoran Vukovic, nicknamed12 Kifla, before the day his name was announced here, in13 all the witnesses' statements, the name appears only14 once, and she identified him as the person she saw15 breaking into a Muslim house for the sake of looting.16 Then at the hearing here, the witness said17 that that same Zoran Vukovic, Kifla, had broken down18 the door in which she was living, raped her, took her19 to his mother's apartment and raped her, brought her20 back the next day to the same apartment and raped her.21 Q. So my question is whether this name "Zoran22 Vukovic" and the very mention of that name, does23 something inexplicable occur as the result of the24 mention of that name? That Zoran Vukovic, Kifla, you25 never mentioned either until two days ago.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 119 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff 1 A. I think I did.2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,3 I have no more questions. Thank you.4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Any re-examination5 by the Prosecution?6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. I7 have a few additional questions.8 JUDGE MUMBA: Please go ahead9 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:10 Q. The first question relates to Defence Exhibit11 29. Witness, do you recall that before Zoran Vukovic12 was arrested, you were called by an investigator of the13 Tribunal?14 A. I think I do remember, yes.15 Q. Were you questioned about what you know about16 Zoran Vukovic?17 A. I think so, yes.18 Q. Did you ever see or discuss the notes that19 the investigator made about this conversation with20 you? Did you, for instance, sign it?21 A. I don't know. I don't remember. I think I22 spoke on the phone with someone, but I don't remember.23 Q. The next question refers to the Defence24 Exhibit number 30. Witness, do you recall that you, in25 March 2000, met with investigators of the Tribunal inTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 120 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff 1 Sarajevo, in the Office of the Prosecution?2 A. Yes.3 Q. Do you recall what the purpose of this4 meeting was?5 A. I don't know exactly.6 Q. Could it have been administrative matters as7 to your way of travelling and if you want a support8 person and those things?9 A. Yes. Yes.10 Q. Who was present? Who else, except for the11 investigators, who else was present during this12 meeting?13 A. Who was there? I don't know. You're asking14 me --15 Q. Do you recall that your husband-to-be was16 present?17 A. Yes. Yes.18 Q. While your husband-to-be was present, did we19 discuss about sexual assault et al.?20 A. I think it was discussed.21 Q. Please try to remember what happened on that22 occasion. Do you recall that we spoke about this23 Kifla, Zoran Vukovic?24 A. Yes. Yes, I do remember.25 Q. And did we speak about the accused ZoranTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 121 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff 1 Vukovic?2 A. I think we did, yes.3 Q. Were you asked to describe any rapes4 committed by these two men at all on that one occasion5 when your husband-to-be was present?6 A. I think not.7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, just for8 clarification, when you look into the document D30,9 there is no mention at all about any sexual assault at10 that time.11 Q. When the cross-examination started, Defence12 counsel Prodanovic referred to two statements you gave13 to the Prosecution, and he referred to your statement14 given to the Bosnian authorities. Were these15 statements, besides the days when you made them and you16 signed them, were they ever given to you and read out17 to you for review?18 A. No, never.19 Q. When you spoke about Partizan during the20 cross-examination, you said that women would sneak out21 to buy some bread. Did they sneak out secretly or did22 they talk to the guards before that?23 A. They talked to the guards, asking them24 whether they could go or not to the shop to buy bread25 for the children.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 122 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff 1 Q. Did all guards allow it or only those who you2 mentioned as friendly and protecting?3 A. Only the two that I described, those that4 protected us.5 Q. Those women who sneaked out, were they young6 girls?7 A. Yes. Actually, only one woman really went,8 and she had two children, and then she'd bring five or9 six loaves of bread for all of us.10 Q. Is this one of the women who are listed on11 this list?12 A. Yes.13 Q. Which one?14 A. Number 95.15 Q. With Defence counsel Mr. Kolesar, you16 discussed your stay in Klanfa's apartment in detail,17 and there was a mention of so-called sleeping18 arrangements. I want to ask you: Were you or any19 other of the girls voluntarily together with Radomir20 Kovac?21 A. I think that is impossible. My heart and22 soul could never do anything like that with a Chetnik23 who killed my own brother who was 20. For me to go to24 bed with him voluntarily, not even if I were dead.25 Q. Did any of you girls make decisions on how toTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 123 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 14 the English and French pagination. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 75 (Open Session) Page 124 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff 1 sleep, how long, with whom whatsoever, or to move to2 other places?3 A. No.4 Q. Who then made the decisions?5 A. They. Who else? Klanfa and his colleague6 Jagos.7 Q. You mention that at a certain point in time,8 Klanfa was in the KP Dom. Do you know when that was9 and why he was in the KP Dom?10 A. Why, I don't know exactly. I just know that11 he was imprisoned, and it was certainly not because he12 did something good. And when this old woman broke into13 our apartment to chase us out of there, then Gojko14 Jankovic came to throw her out. He said that Klanfa15 was in detention, and he yelled at her, saying, "Do you16 think that Klanfa will never come out of prison?" And17 that is how I knew that he was in the KP Dom in Foca.18 Q. And when he returned, did he ever tell you19 why he was there, what he did?20 A. No. I don't remember.21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions,22 Your Honours.23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Thank you very24 much, Witness, for giving evidence to the Tribunal.25 You are now free and you can leave.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 125 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 [The witness withdrew]2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, as there4 is now a new witness coming, we need a break to arrange5 the technical things, and we also want to switch6 places. Maybe it's a possibility to make our break7 now.8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. For the arrangements that9 have to be made, we will break now. I'm looking at the10 clock in the courtroom, so we shall resume at 11.20.11 We shall resume the proceedings at 11.20 sharp.12 --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.13 --- On resuming at 11.20 a.m.14 [The witness entered court]15 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please16 make your solemn declaration.17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly18 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,19 and nothing but the truth.20 WITNESS: WITNESS 8721 [Witness answered through interpreter]22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.23 MS. KUO: Good morning, Witness.24 With the assistance of the usher, I would25 like to have this witness shown Exhibit 192, which hasTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 126 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 been given to Defence as well as provided to Chambers.2 Examined by Ms. Kuo:3 Q. Witness, on Exhibit 192, do you see your4 name?5 A. Yes.6 Q. Next to your name, do you see a number?7 A. Yes.8 Q. Is that number 87?9 A. Yes.10 Q. Throughout these proceedings you will be11 referred to by that number. Do you understand?12 A. Yes.13 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness approach14 the microphone, please.15 MS. KUO:16 Q. Witness, underneath your name, do you see17 your birth date?18 A. Yes.19 Q. Underneath that, do you see the name of your20 father?21 A. Yes.22 Q. Underneath that, the name of your mother?23 A. Yes.24 Q. Finally, the name of your sister?25 A. Yes.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 127 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. Could you tell us what initials appear beside2 the name of your sister?3 A. DB.4 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, how old are you?5 A. Twenty-three and a half.6 Q. In April of 1992, how old were you?7 A. About 15 1/2.8 Q. Where were you born?9 A. In Foca.10 Q. Where did you live?11 A. In Trosanj.12 Q. Did you live in a particular part of Trosanj?13 A. No. Yes. Just Trosanj.14 Q. Were there both Serbs and Muslims living15 there?16 A. Trosanj was inhabited only by Muslims, the17 part up to the road, and a place called Mjesaja was18 inhabited by both Serbs and Muslims.19 Q. What ethnicity are you?20 A. Muslim.21 Q. In 1992 whom did you live with?22 A. With my mother, father, sister, and brother.23 Q. How old was your brother?24 A. He was 10.25 Q. How old was your sister?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 128 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. I will have to calculate it.2 Q. Was she older or younger than you?3 A. She was four years my senior.4 Q. In 1992 were you still in school?5 A. Yes.6 Q. What grade were you in?7 A. Second grade of secondary school.8 Q. Where did you go to school?9 A. The Nikola Tesla Secondary School centre in10 Foca.11 Q. Is that the same school that's located in the12 Aladza neighbourhood of Foca?13 A. Yes.14 Q. Do you know when the war in Foca started?15 A. I think it was on the 8th of April, though16 I'm not quite sure.17 Q. At that time could you hear or see anything?18 A. Yes. We could hear shooting, explosions,19 sometimes houses set on fire, and things like that.20 Q. Did you see soldiers?21 A. I didn't see soldiers until roughly the 3rd22 of July.23 Q. Before the 3rd of July, how did the war24 affect your life? Did you continue to go to school?25 A. No. The school work was suspended, I thinkTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 129 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 it was at the beginning of April.2 Q. Were you able to continue living in your3 house?4 A. For a very short time. Afterwards we had to5 hide in the woods.6 Q. Why did you have to hide in the woods?7 A. Out of fear that we would be killed or8 something like that.9 Q. Did you feel that you were targeted because10 you were Muslims?11 A. Yes.12 Q. Who else was in the woods with you?13 A. My family and two other families. That was14 at the beginning. Later, a short while before we were15 attacked, there were several families in one group.16 Q. What ethnicity were all these people in the17 woods with you?18 A. They were all Muslim.19 Q. When was your village attacked?20 A. On the 3rd of July, 1992.21 Q. Do you recall what time of day it was?22 A. I couldn't tell the exact time, but it was23 about 6.00 in the morning. It was very early.24 Q. Where were you when the village was25 attacked?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 130 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. We were sleeping in a tent in the woods.2 Q. What did you hear?3 A. We heard shots.4 Q. What did you do?5 A. When we heard the shots there was panic, and6 the people started fleeing. Nobody knew where to go,7 in which direction. When the first man was hit or,8 rather, wounded, then we were swept by real panic.9 Q. Could you see who was shooting?10 A. At first we couldn't, but after a short while11 we could see.12 Q. Who was shooting?13 A. They were soldiers in camouflage uniforms. I14 knew they were Serbs.15 Q. Did you recognise any of them?16 A. At that moment I did not, I wasn't even17 looking, but a little later, yes.18 Q. Do you recall now who those soldiers were?19 A. I now remember only one of them from that20 attack that morning. I can't remember the others.21 Q. Whose name do you remember?22 A. May I say the name?23 Q. The name of the soldier, yes.24 A. It was Jagos Kostic.25 Q. You mentioned that a man was shot. Did youTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 131 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 13 the English and French pagination. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 132 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 see anyone else get shot?2 A. Yes. I saw three persons who were shot. One3 was a man and two women.4 Q. Do you know approximately how old the man5 was?6 A. I don't know exactly. About 50 maybe.7 Q. What else did you see the soldiers do?8 A. When they started shooting at us, we were9 fleeing, and they ran after us. Then they surrounded a10 group of us, and they beat the men, demanding that they11 tell them where the weapons were, where they had hidden12 the weapons and things like that.13 Q. Were there any weapons with you in the14 woods?15 A. No.16 Q. Was your father one of the men being beaten?17 A. Yes.18 Q. What did the soldiers do then?19 A. You mean after that?20 Q. Yes.21 A. They separated the men from the women and the22 children. They took us out of the woods to a meadow.23 It wasn't far. Then they lined us up, and then they24 asked whether we had gold, money, and the like. Then25 in our tents they found quite a number of oldTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 133 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 photographs and documents, and then they showed us2 those photographs, asking us who they were, where they3 were, and the like.4 Q. In the meadow, was it women and children or5 men?6 A. In the meadow were the women and the7 children. Though I don't remember very well, the men8 were not right next to us. They were separated from9 us, as far as I can recollect. They were not lined up10 in the same row, in any event.11 Q. Could you hear what happened to the men?12 A. After that, they told us that they were13 taking us somewhere, the women and children, and we14 hadn't moved far from the meadow when we heard shots,15 and I think -- it is my opinion that those men up there16 were killed at the time.17 Q. Did you ever see your father again?18 A. No.19 Q. Where were you women and children taken after20 that?21 A. To Buk Bijela.22 Q. When you say "Buk Bijela," are you speaking23 of someplace in particular?24 A. Buk Bijela has another name and it's Mjesaja,25 though Buk Bijela is better known. I can't reallyTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 134 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 explain whether it was a hotel, a boarding house, or2 something like that. I just know that before the war,3 military training took place there or something like4 that. What Buk Bijela really was was a motel or a5 hotel. I really couldn't say.6 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher,7 I'd like to have the witness shown Exhibit 11,8 photographs 7415 and 7416.9 Q. Witness, do you recognise photograph 7415?10 A. I can't be sure.11 Q. Would you look at 7416?12 A. I can't be sure.13 Q. Thank you. Witness, what were you told to do14 when you arrived at Buk Bijela?15 A. First they lined us up against a wall, and16 they told us to wait. I don't know why. But anyway,17 they came occasionally and took people off for some18 sort of questioning.19 Q. When you say "they," who do you refer to?20 A. I'm referring to the Serb army.21 Q. How did they take people out?22 A. They would simply come and call out the names23 and take them off.24 Q. Were you taken off at that time?25 A. I was taken, but not for interrogation.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 135 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. Who took you?2 A. I didn't know that man before, but his name3 was Pero. I don't know his surname. He took me away4 to a room. Well, it was a sort of room. But he didn't5 call out my name; he just came and took me by the hand6 and took me off.7 Q. Did he tell you why he was taking you?8 A. No.9 Q. What did he do when he took you to this room?10 A. When he took me to the room, he first of all11 ordered me to take my clothes off, and I didn't12 directly refuse, but I didn't take my clothes off.13 Then he did so. After that he raped me.14 Q. Are you able to describe exactly what he did?15 A. It's a little difficult for me. Well, what I16 mean is he had sexual relations; forcibly, against my17 will, he had sexual relations with me.18 Q. Did he put his penis in your vagina?19 A. Yes.20 Q. What did he do after that?21 A. I don't remember the exact details. I think22 somebody else came, who was in front of the door, who23 had been in front of the door, and who took me off24 again to where the others were, lined up to where the25 others were.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 136 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. What happened when you were returned to that2 group?3 A. I don't think anything happened; that is to4 say, it was as if I wasn't present, conscious of it5 all, what was happening to me. Although not much time6 went by before two men turned up, who called me out by7 name, and the name of another individual, and we were8 asked to go to this so-called interrogation.9 Q. That other individual, was it your sister?10 A. Yes.11 Q. What happened to you when you were taken out12 again?13 A. They took me into a sort of room, not a big14 one; a small one, where there was a bed, a table, and a15 couple of chairs, and I think there were four soldiers16 in there, although people would be coming in and going17 out all the time.18 Q. Do you know who those four soldiers were, or19 do you remember who they were?20 A. I know two of them; that is to say, I didn't21 know one of them before, but I knew his name. I know22 the other one's name, because I knew him from before.23 Actually, I didn't know him, but I knew who he was. As24 for the other two, I didn't know their names.25 Q. Can you tell us the names of the soldiersTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 137 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 13 the English and French pagination. b14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 138 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 that you did know?2 A. Dragan Zelenovic, nicknamed Zelja, and the3 other one was Veso Miletic.4 Q. What did they do when you were brought to the5 room?6 A. First of all they asked me questions.7 Q. What kind of questions?8 A. First of all they asked me about the other9 inhabitants of Trosanj, where they were, and where the10 inhabitants had hidden their weapons; do we know any of11 the places where the other inhabitants of Trosanj could12 have escaped to and hidden. Then they asked me how old13 I was, my age, and whether I went to school or not.14 Q. Did you answer those questions?15 A. The first questions they asked me, I wasn't16 able to answer, because I didn't know. But I only17 answered the question -- the last questions; that is to18 say, how old I was and whether I went to school.19 Q. Did they ask you anything else about20 yourself?21 A. They asked me whether I was a virgin, and I22 answered that I was a virgin until a few moments ago,23 or words to that effect.24 Q. What was their reaction when you told them25 that?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 139 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. I don't remember.2 Q. What did they do?3 A. After that Zelenovic told me to take my4 clothes off, and when I didn't do so, he did it. And5 then he raped me. And Miletic did the same, and the6 other two whose names I don't know.7 Q. What happened after they raped you?8 A. I don't remember exactly who it was, who took9 me out of that room, outside, to a bus where the other10 people were already sitting, except my mother, who was11 still outside, because she didn't want to leave without12 me. When I arrived, I got into the bus and then they13 took us off to the secondary school centre.14 Q. Did you tell your mother what had just15 happened to you?16 A. No.17 Q. Why not?18 A. I think that at that time I didn't have the19 strength to, to even look her in the eyes. Not only20 her, but anybody, to look anybody in the eyes.21 Q. How did you feel at that time?22 A. It's very difficult to describe that. I know23 that I was terribly frightened, I felt ashamed in a24 way, and in a way I felt very, very dirty, soiled.25 Q. Where were you all taken?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 140 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. To the secondary school centre named Nikola2 Tesla in Aladza.3 Q. Is that the same school that you were4 attending at that time?5 A. Yes.6 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I7 would like to have this witness shown Exhibit 11,8 photographs 7418 and 7419.9 Q. Do you recognise 7418?10 A. Yes. That's the Nikola Tesla Secondary11 School centre in Aladza.12 Q. And 4719 as well?13 A. Yes, that's the same thing. It's the Nikola14 Tesla Secondary School centre in Aladza.15 Q. Thank you. Where were you taken when you16 arrived by bus?17 A. When we got to the secondary school centre,18 they took us inside. We stood for a time, for a19 moment, in the hall, although I don't remember20 exactly. But I know that after that we were taken into21 a classroom which was on the first floor, in which22 there were no desks and chairs. There were just23 sleeping mattresses lined up.24 Q. When you say "they" took you, who do you25 mean?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 141 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. I'm thinking of the same people, the Serb2 soldiers, although at the time there were about --3 well, let's say about four or five of them.4 Q. Did soldiers come to the school on other5 occasions while you were there?6 A. Yes.7 Q. What did these soldiers do when they came to8 the school?9 A. Every time one of them would turn up, they10 would call out the girls by their names, or the women,11 and then they would take them off with them.12 Q. How often did this occur?13 A. Well, I couldn't say that it happened every14 night. Perhaps every other night, approximately.15 Q. Were you ever taken out by any soldiers?16 A. Yes.17 Q. Can you describe what happened to you?18 A. Usually some of them would come, call out the19 names, and take me away from the secondary school20 centre to another house, another apartment, although on21 one occasion I was taken just from that classroom into22 another classroom.23 Q. Could you describe what happened on that24 occasion when you were taken to the other classroom?25 Let's start with who took you out.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 142 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. I remember that on that occasion, I think2 there were five of them who came into the room, five3 soldiers, and that they called out the names of five4 girls. I think there was one woman among them -- I'm5 not sure -- although one of the girls was returned and6 another one taken out. I don't know for what reason.7 Then they took us out to the other classroom,8 all five of us. One of the soldiers took the girl9 straight out in front of the classroom, whereas we10 stayed in the classroom with the four soldiers.11 Q. If I could interrupt you here and ask the12 usher to show you Exhibit 193.13 MS. KUO: This has already been provided to14 Defence counsel and Chambers.15 Q. You mentioned that there were five of you who16 were picked out. Do you see the names of the other17 girls on this paper, and, if so, could you give us18 their numbers, the numbers next to their names?19 A. Yes. They were number 75, number 50,20 number 88, and DB. Then DB was returned and number 9521 was taken out.22 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I would like to make23 sure that Exhibit 192, which was previously shown to24 this witness, and now Exhibit 193, are entered into25 evidence.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 143 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have just the2 numbers formally, please.3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document4 will be 192, and this is confidential, as well as5 Exhibit 193, which will also be confidential.6 MS. KUO:7 Q. Witness, you mentioned that one of the girls8 was taken to the front of the classroom. Which one was9 that? What is her number?10 A. I don't understand your question. You mean11 brought back?12 Q. I'm sorry. Earlier you said that when you13 were all brought into the separate classroom, one of14 the girls among you was taken out to a different15 classroom. Who was that?16 A. It was number 50.17 Q. Do you recall who the soldiers were who took18 you girls out?19 A. I remember some of them. I don't remember20 all of them.21 Q. Could you tell us the names or nicknames of22 those you remember?23 A. The first was Dragan Zelenovic, nicknamed24 Zelja; the second was Zoran Vukovic; and the third was25 Tuta. I think he was Janko Janjic, but I'm quiteTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 144 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 14 the English and French pagination. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 145 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 certain of his nickname. I'm not quite certain of the2 name "Janko." I'm not absolutely certain it was3 Janko.4 Q. Did you know Zoran Vukovic from before the5 war or did you know of him?6 A. No, I didn't know him before the war,7 although he was an individual -- there were some8 individuals in the group of us who knew him from9 before, and that is how I learnt his name.10 Q. When you say "individuals among you," do you11 mean the girls and the women?12 A. I'm not thinking of anybody specific. The13 group of people that was there. There were elderly14 people, younger people. I don't remember exactly who15 of them said they knew him.16 Q. Do you remember how it is you learned his17 name?18 A. On that occasion when he came there and when19 he went, left, I don't remember who exactly, but I know20 that somebody -- that they said they knew him, that21 they knew who he was, and that they knew his name and22 surname.23 Q. Someone who saw him that day?24 A. That day they came into the classroom, and25 then all the people who were in the classroom had seenTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 146 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 him.2 Q. Do you recall giving a statement to3 investigators from the Tribunal in January 1996, in4 which you stated that you did know Zoran Vukovic by5 sight from before the war?6 A. Yes, I remember.7 Q. Do you know what you meant by that or why you8 said that?9 A. I couldn't say. I think -- well, a lot of10 time's gone by since then. I don't know what I meant11 to say by saying that, because I didn't know Zoran12 Vukovic before. Possibly I might have seen him at one13 time in Foca, but I'm not sure of that.14 Q. When you girls were brought into that other15 classroom, what happened?16 A. Zelenovic, he sort of ordered each girl where17 to go, so that he ordered me to go into a corner where18 Zoran Vukovic was already sitting. He ordered another19 girl to go to another corner where Janjic Tuta was20 already, and he, Zelenovic, and another one whose name21 I don't know, stayed with the other two, the remaining22 two girls.23 Q. What happened when you went in the corner24 where Zoran Vukovic was sitting?25 A. I don't know who turned the light off, butTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 147 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 the light went off. Vukovic told me to lie down on the2 mattress. Then he took my clothes off and then raped3 me.4 Q. I'm sorry to have to ask you this again, but5 could you tell the Court specifically what he did?6 A. He forcibly put his penis in my vagina.7 Q. Could you hear what was happening to the8 other girls in that room?9 A. The only thing that I could hear was in the10 corner, where Janjic "Tuta" was, and number 95, with11 number 95, blows were heard, or something like that.12 And I think Janjic swore. That's the only thing I13 heard.14 Q. Do you mean by "blows," that somebody was15 hitting somebody else?16 A. Yes.17 Q. Did Zoran Vukovic say anything to you while18 he was raping you?19 A. No.20 Q. Do you recall if he was armed? Did he have a21 weapon?22 A. I do not remember that, though they were23 never without arms.24 Q. What happened after Zoran Vukovic raped you25 in that classroom?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 148 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. Then they simply took us back to the2 classroom.3 Q. The one where the other women and children4 were?5 A. Yes.6 Q. Did you tell your mother what had happened to7 you?8 A. No.9 Q. Was there anything about the way you looked10 that might have led her to conclude what happened to11 you?12 A. I think so, yes. She never asked me, nor did13 I ever tell her, but I think she knew, with some14 certainty.15 Q. How did you feel?16 A. As I did every time.17 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Vukovic again?18 A. I think I saw him maybe two or three times,19 but I don't remember the exact occasions or dates. I20 just remember one occasion when I was in the apartment21 in the Brena building in Foca, but that was for a very22 brief encounter.23 Q. Is that when you were in Klanfa's apartment?24 A. Yes.25 Q. Could you describe how it is you saw ZoranTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 149 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Vukovic at that time? What was he doing?2 A. The time he came to Klanfa's apartment, I3 think he came wearing Klanfa's clothes, which were4 bloodstained, and he said that Klanfa had been wounded5 in battle, or something to that effect, that he had6 been shot in the leg and wounded.7 Q. Did he give you anything at that time?8 A. I don't understand.9 Q. Did Zoran Vukovic say anything else to you10 when you saw him in that apartment?11 A. What I can remember is that he explained that12 Klanfa had been wounded and that he would be in the13 hospital for a time, and that Klanfa's clothes needed14 to be washed. I don't remember anything else.15 Q. Are you able to recognise Zoran Vukovic16 today?17 A. Perhaps.18 Q. Would you please look around the courtroom,19 take your time, and tell us if you recognise Zoran20 Vukovic.21 A. I think I do.22 Q. Can you please describe what he's wearing and23 where he's seated?24 A. He's the second in the last row, from that25 side [indicates].Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 150 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 13 the English and French pagination. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 151 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. Do you mean from the right? You appear to be2 indicating from the right.3 A. Yes, from the right, if I look at them this4 way; facing them, from the right.5 Q. Can you describe what he's wearing, please.6 A. A white shirt, I think it's a dark blue7 blazer, and a dark blue tie with a pattern on it.8 MS. KUO: May the record reflect that the9 witness has identified the accused Zoran Vukovic.10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.11 MS. KUO:12 Q. Were you ever taken out of that classroom in13 the high school again?14 A. Yes. I don't remember everything too well,15 but I remember once when Zelenovic took us to an16 apartment in the Brena building, and the other17 occasions I can't remember, though I know that that was18 not the only time when I was taken out of the secondary19 school centre.20 Q. And each time that you were taken out of the21 secondary school centre, what happened to you?22 A. Each time when I was taken out of the23 secondary school centre, I was always raped.24 Q. Did you see other girls being taken out of25 the secondary school centre?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 152 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. Yes. They never took me out alone; there was2 always someone with me, another girl.3 Q. How long did you stay at the high school?4 A. I don't remember that too well. I don't5 think it was for a long time. Maybe two weeks, but I'm6 not sure of that.7 Q. During that time did you feel free to just8 leave?9 A. No.10 Q. Can you describe why not?11 A. You mean the secondary school centre?12 Q. Yes.13 A. In the first place, there were soldiers there14 always, and at the entrance there were soldiers on15 guard, guarding the entrance, though there weren't too16 many Muslims left at the time, so it wasn't safe to go17 out into the street.18 Q. Were you all Muslims who were detained inside19 the secondary school?20 A. Yes.21 Q. Where were you taken when you were taken from22 the secondary school after those two weeks?23 A. They took us to the sports hall, Partizan.24 First they took us there to clean up the hall, and then25 they transferred us there to stay.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 153 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. Did they take everybody who was detained with2 you at the high school?3 A. Yes.4 Q. Approximately how many people were with you5 at Partizan Sports Hall?6 A. At the time, at first, there were only people7 from Trosanj. I really couldn't say how many. Not8 many, because all of us could sleep in a single9 classroom in the high school. But later, some more10 people were brought in, people I didn't know, who were11 from the villages surrounding Foca.12 Q. Were there any men among you?13 A. I think there were some older men, but I14 remember only two of them. One was very old, and the15 other one was sick.16 Q. While you were at Partizan, did you feel free17 to leave?18 A. No. The same applies as to the high school,19 the guards were always there, and to go into the street20 or anywhere else was unsafe.21 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I22 would like to have this witness shown Exhibit 11,23 photograph 7302.24 Q. Do you recognise that photograph?25 A. Yes. That is the Partizan Sports Hall.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 154 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. Thank you. Did soldiers also come to2 Partizan and take girls out?3 A. Yes.4 Q. How often did they do that?5 A. Sometimes it was every night, sometimes every6 other night. I can't remember exactly.7 Q. What would they do when they came to the hall8 to take girls out?9 A. They would come inside looking for particular10 persons, girls. They would select them, as many as11 they wanted, and then they would take them with them.12 Q. Do you know the names or nicknames of the13 soldiers who did this?14 A. I remember Gojko Jankovic. I remember a man15 called Zaga; his surname is Kunarac. I'm not sure of16 his first name. I think it's Dragan or something like17 that. Then also Janjic Tuta would come there. I think18 Gagovic was there twice also. I can't remember any19 others.20 Q. The person you identified as Zaga, surname21 Kunarac, did you know him before the war?22 A. No.23 Q. Are you able to describe him?24 A. It's rather hard. I know he wasn't very25 tall. He wasn't too skinny or too fat. I think he hadTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 155 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 dark brown hair. I can't remember any other specific2 trait.3 Q. How often did he come to Partizan?4 A. He wouldn't come every night. Maybe every5 third night, though I'm not sure of that.6 Q. When Zaga came, did he come alone or with7 other soldiers?8 A. With other soldiers.9 Q. And what would he do when he came to10 Partizan?11 A. Usually he would pick up a couple of girls or12 three of them. He would select them and take them with13 him.14 Q. Did Zaga, surname Kunarac, ever take you out15 of Partizan?16 A. Yes.17 Q. Do you recall where he took you?18 A. I just remember two occasions. I remember19 precisely those two occasions, not the others. One of20 those occasions was in a house in Aladza, and a second21 time he took me to a house near the bus station.22 Q. Could you describe for us the first time when23 he took you to the house in Aladza? First, where was24 the house?25 A. The house was not far from the high schoolTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 156 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 14 the English and French pagination. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 157 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 and not far from the Aladza mosque. The house is to2 the right when you're going in the direction of the3 high school, and to the right there is a small street,4 and it is the first house on the corner, the house he5 took me to. The windows were facing the street.6 Q. Could you tell who used to live in that7 house?8 A. I'm not sure of that, though in the yard of9 the house or, rather, on the ground floor there was a10 kind of workshop. I think it had to do with sewing11 clothes or footwear or something like that, although12 I'm not sure.13 Q. When Zaga Kunarac took you to this house,14 what did he do?15 A. Zaga Kunarac was never alone, and I was never16 alone. There were always several girls with me.17 Usually there would be several soldiers there. Then,18 of course, I should say, they would rape each one of19 us.20 Q. On this particular incident, do you remember21 what girls were taken with you?22 A. Yes. It was number 75, 50, DB, and myself.23 Q. Do you remember when this was?24 A. I don't remember that any longer, but I do25 remember that I think it was the day before they tookTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 158 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 us to Miljevina.2 Q. Was that the first time that you were taken3 to that house in Aladza, the day before you were taken4 to Miljevina?5 A. No. That was the last time when I was in the6 house in Aladza, but the previous occasions that I went7 to that house, I cannot remember exactly with whom and8 when and how.9 Q. Could you tell what soldiers were in that10 house in Aladza, where they came from?11 A. I think they were from Montenegro. They had12 a different accent from ours, though they also said13 where they came from. I think most of them were from14 Niksic, yes.15 Q. When you were taken -- on the occasions when16 you were taken to the house in Aladza, who took you?17 A. It was usually Zaga Kunarac. We would be18 taken back, but I don't know by whom.19 Q. Before the last time that you were taken to20 the house in Aladza and the other times, did Zaga ever21 rape you?22 A. Yes.23 Q. You mentioned that Zaga also took you to an24 old house by the bus station. Do you remember when25 that was?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 159 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. I don't remember exactly when that was, but2 this was before we were taken to this house in Aladza,3 that time I have described, but I don't remember when4 this was.5 Q. Were you taken alone or with other girls to6 the house by the bus station?7 A. I was there with two other girls. They were8 number 50 and DB.9 Q. What happened to you in that house?10 A. I was raped by two soldiers, one of whose11 name I don't know, and the other was Zaga Kunarac.12 Q. Do you know what happened to the other girls13 when they were taken with you to that house?14 A. I don't know about DB, but number 50 told me15 that she was also raped by Zaga Kunarac.16 Q. You mentioned being taken to other places by17 Zaga Kunarac that you no longer recall. Is that right?18 A. Yes.19 Q. Did he rape you those times as well?20 A. I don't remember that.21 Q. But you do remember that he took you out of22 Partizan; is that right?23 A. Yes. I do remember that he came and took me24 out several times, but I remember two occasions with25 precision.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 160 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. Do you recall a time when a female journalist2 came to Partizan?3 A. Yes, I remember that.4 Q. Do you remember what she looked like?5 A. She was very slim, blonde. She wore very6 tight clothing, tight-fitting clothing. She was7 heavily made up. That was it more or less.8 Q. Was Zaga Kunarac with her when she came to9 the Partizan?10 A. I don't remember that, although I know that11 she asked questions about him.12 Q. What questions did she ask about him?13 A. The first thing she asked was whether -- how14 we were in Partizan, whether we were being mistreated15 by anybody, whether soldiers came to mistreat us. I16 don't remember exactly how she came to mention Zaga's17 name on that particular occasion, but I do remember18 that someone out of this group of people said that he19 would come and take girls out with him.20 Q. Do you recall who spoke with that journalist?21 A. I don't remember that, no.22 Q. Did you talk with her?23 A. No.24 Q. Did you ever see her again?25 A. Yes, I saw her once again in Miljevina.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 161 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. Where in Miljevina?2 A. In Karaman's House, where we were taken to3 after that night in the house in Aladza.4 Q. What was she doing in Karaman's House?5 A. I don't remember that she was doing anything6 special; she was just sitting there. I don't think she7 talked much, but I don't remember really anything much8 about that, any details.9 Q. When you saw her again, was she acting like10 she was a journalist?11 A. No. She looked like an ordinary woman, not12 like a journalist. There was nothing specific, but she13 didn't behave in that way. She said that she was --14 she didn't say that she was there because of her work15 or anything like that.16 Q. Now, you mentioned the last time you were17 taken to this house in Aladza as being the day before18 you were taken to Miljevina. Do you recall that?19 A. I can't be certain, but I think it was the20 day after we were taken to the house in Aladza for the21 last time.22 Q. And by that day, what do you mean happened?23 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand you.24 Q. I'm afraid I didn't phrase it correctly. The25 last time you were taken to Aladza, the house inTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 162 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Aladza, was the night before you were taken to2 Miljevina; is that what you're saying?3 A. Yes.4 Q. Did anything happen to the mosque that night5 that makes you remember that night in particular?6 A. I know that on one occasion the mosque was7 blown up or something like that, although I can't say8 that it occurred exactly on that particular night.9 Although I do remember that night, because -- I don't10 know how exactly, but I think that that night when we11 were in the house at Aladza, and the next day in12 Miljevina, I think -- I don't know -- in some strange13 way I think they might be connected.14 Q. All right, then. Let's talk about that last15 time you were in the house before being taken to16 Miljevina. Who took you to the house?17 A. Kunarac.18 Q. Were you taken alone or with other girls?19 A. With others.20 Q. Could you tell us their numbers, please?21 A. 75, 50, DB, and myself.22 Q. Were you arrived at the house, did you see23 any other girls?24 A. I just remember one girl -- she was already25 there when we arrived -- and that was number 190.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 163 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. Were there also soldiers at the house?2 A. Yes.3 Q. Were you raped that night at the house?4 A. Yes.5 Q. Who raped you?6 A. I remember Kunarac; I remember an older man,7 whose name I don't know; and I remember a younger man8 whose surname was Toljic, I think, and he was nicknamed9 Tolja. And those are those three, the three who I10 remember raped me.11 Q. In what room did Kunarac rape you?12 A. When you go into the apartment, on the13 left-hand side is the kitchen and on the right-hand14 side is the room, and it was in this room that Kunarac15 raped me.16 Q. Could you tell if Kunarac was in charge of17 the other soldiers, or what his relationship with them18 was?19 A. It was my impression that when Zaga would20 come to Partizan, or when he took us away to the house21 in Aladza, that he was the one issuing the orders, and22 I felt -- I had the feeling that the other soldiers who23 were there listened to him.24 Q. How long were you kept in the house in Aladza25 that night?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 164 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. I think it was until morning. I think the2 next morning we were taken away to Miljevina, but I3 can't be certain.4 Q. You can't be certain of exactly when you were5 taken to Miljevina, or that you were taken at some6 point?7 A. No. I can't be certain when.8 Q. Do you recall who took you to Miljevina?9 A. I remember Pero Elez, and I remember that10 there were two other men too. I think there were two11 other men, but I can't remember who they were.12 Q. Do you remember being told why you were being13 taken to Miljevina?14 A. No. They didn't tell us. They didn't tell15 us where we were going or why we were going.16 Q. Who was taken there with you?17 A. Taken with me was number 75, DB, and number18 190.19 Q. Where in Miljevina were you taken?20 A. We were taken to a house. I don't know how21 it came to be known as Karaman's House, but I think22 that Karaman was the surname of the man who owned the23 house, or who was the owner of the house before the24 war.25 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, ITuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 165 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 13 the English and French pagination. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 166 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 would like to have this witness shown Exhibit 11,2 photograph 7355.3 Q. Do you recognise what is in that photograph?4 A. Yes. That's Karaman's House in Miljevina.5 Q. Thank you. Was there anyone at Karaman's6 House when you were taken there, when you arrived?7 A. Yes. There was another girl there, although8 I don't remember her name anymore. And I don't think I9 see her here.10 Q. Were there also soldiers there?11 A. Yes. I don't know exactly how many. I think12 there were about two or three of them when we arrived.13 Q. What were they doing, the soldiers?14 A. I don't understand your question.15 Q. Did anyone live at Karaman's House?16 A. It looked as if they did, yes. Two or three17 of them lived in that house. Yes, that's how it18 appeared.19 Q. Do you recall who those two or three soldiers20 were who lived there?21 A. One of them was Radovan Stankovic, nicknamed22 Raso. The other was Nedzo Samardzic, I think. And the23 third was Nikola. I think his surname was Brcic,24 although I'm not sure.25 Q. Did other soldiers come to this house?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 167 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. Yes.2 Q. What did the soldiers do when they came to3 this house?4 A. Usually they would select one the girls and5 take her off to the second floor.6 Q. How long were you kept at Karaman's House?7 A. I can't remember that exactly. A month and a8 half, two months perhaps, although I'm not quite sure.9 Q. During that time, what happened to you10 there?11 A. I, like all the other girls in Karaman's12 House, was raped by the Serb soldiers. I think that13 after a certain amount of time, that two other girls14 were brought in, or three, but at any rate, all of them15 were raped either every night or every other night;16 often.17 Q. Are you able to count how many times you were18 raped in Karaman's House?19 A. I don't think that is possible.20 Q. Did Zaga Kunarac ever come to Karaman's21 House?22 A. I remember only one time when he was there.23 I remember that he was wounded or injured and that he24 had a cast on a part of his body. He had something25 bandaged up somewhere, although I don't remember veryTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 168 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 well. I remember that one time. As for the others,2 whether he came or not, I couldn't say.3 Q. What did he do that time when he came, that4 you remember?5 A. I don't remember exactly why he came and what6 he was doing in that house exactly. All I remember is7 that he took me into a room on the upper floor and that8 he raped me there.9 Q. Was there anything in particular about that10 incident that made an impression on you?11 A. Well, I think I thought about how an12 individual who was -- I wondered how an individual who13 had been wounded or injured could do something like14 that.15 Q. Would you be able to recognise Zaga Kunarac16 today?17 A. Perhaps.18 Q. Could you please look around the courtroom19 and tell us if you see him?20 A. Yes.21 Q. Could you please describe where he's seated22 and what he's wearing?23 A. He's sitting on the left-hand side, and the24 second man there. I think he's got a dark blue blazer25 on, a white shirt. He's got a tie with a pattern onTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 169 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 it, something reddish, something like that.2 MS. KUO: Let the record reflect that the3 witness has identified the accused Dragoljub Kunarac.4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.5 MS. KUO:6 Q. During the time that you were kept at7 Karaman's House, were there other girls there as well,8 and if so, could you give us their names or initials on9 the paper before you?10 A. Yes, there were other girls there as well. I11 knew the ones who had come with me, number 75, DB, and12 190, although 190 was returned from the house after a13 short while. And afterwards, after some time, others14 were brought; that is to say, AB, AS, and one other one15 whose name I don't see here. Yes. And number 132, and16 another girl whose name I can't see on the list.17 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher,18 perhaps this witness could be given a blank piece of19 paper, and that paper can be marked as Exhibit 194. I20 would ask the witness to write down the name of this21 girl whose name she does not see on the exhibit before22 her.23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This piece of24 paper will be 194, and it will be under seal.25 MS. KUO:Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 170 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. Witness, you mentioned someone identified as2 AB. Do you know how old she was at that time?3 A. I couldn't say how old she was exactly, but I4 think she was either 12 or 13.5 Q. Could you tell who was in charge of Karaman's6 House?7 A. I think it was Pero. That's what he said, in8 fact. He said that special people had the right to9 enter that house or that only those people that he10 allowed could enter.11 Q. Were you given instructions what to do if12 other people tried to enter?13 A. I think Pero gave us the telephone number of14 the hotel in Miljevina -- I think that's where they15 lived or something like that, I don't know exactly --16 in case somebody came. He told us that if anybody17 came, we should phone him up and tell him.18 Q. The soldiers who came and raped you, did they19 appear to be among those that you described as being20 allowed to be there?21 A. Yes.22 Q. Was the door at Karaman's House locked?23 A. The door wasn't locked. I think it was the24 kind of door that you could open from the inside but25 not from the outside. Only if you had a key could youTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 171 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 open if from the outside.2 At first we weren't allowed to go out of the3 house, although later on we were able to go out into4 the garden or onto the terrace.5 Q. Why didn't you just leave the house, go away6 from there?7 A. Once again, for the same reasons. You didn't8 know where to go or where this would lead you, this9 attempt to escape. Nothing was safe. You wouldn't10 know where it would lead to.11 Q. Did you also have to do housework in12 Karaman's House?13 A. Yes, cooking, washing, laundering, cleaning14 up generally, things like that.15 Q. When were you taken away from Karaman's16 House?17 A. I can't remember the exact time of that18 either, but I think it was perhaps the end of September19 or the beginning of October, but I'm not quite sure.20 Q. Where were you taken?21 A. To Foca. First of all they took us to an22 apartment in a settlement called Ribarsko, and the next23 day we were taken to Klanfa's apartment, which is24 located in the Brena building.25 Q. Who took you out of Karaman's House, if youTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 172 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 remember?2 A. Yes, I remember Zelenovic. I think that3 Gojko Jankovic was also there, and Tuta, but I can't be4 quite certain of that.5 Q. Were you taken alone or with other girls?6 A. With other girls. They took me, number 75,7 AB, and AS.8 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I see that we've come9 to our lunch break, and perhaps this would be a good10 time to pause.11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We're going to have our12 lunch break and resume in the afternoon at 1430 hours.13 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.59 p.m.141516171819202122232425Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 173 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 --- On resuming at 2.29 p.m.2 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness. We3 are proceeding with the Prosecution4 examination-in-chief.5 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.6 Q. Witness, before the lunch break you described7 a number of incidents in which Kunarac raped you when8 he took you from Partizan. Could you tell the Court9 specifically what he did, or what you meant by "rape"?10 A. What I mean by "rape" is that he forced his11 penis into my vagina by force.12 Q. And when Kunarac raped you at Karaman's13 House, was it the same thing?14 A. Yes.15 Q. While you were detained at the high school,16 was there ever a time when Zelenovic took you and 7517 out alone, and Zelenovic and Zoran Vukovic raped you?18 A. Could you repeat the question, please.19 Q. While you were detained at the high school,20 do you remember if there was ever a time when Zelenovic21 took you and 75 out alone, and Zelenovic and Zoran22 Vukovic raped you?23 A. I remember that once Zelenovic took me and24 75, and that we were raped then, but I don't remember25 whether Vukovic was present.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 174 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. While you were detained at Partizan, do you2 remember being raped by four men, taken out and being3 raped by four men at the same time, including Zelenovic4 and Zoran Vukovic?5 A. No, I don't remember.6 Q. Witness, before the break you were describing7 to us that you were taken away from Karaman's House and8 brought to a flat in Foca, in the area known as9 Ribarsko; is that right?10 A. Yes.11 Q. What happened to you at that flat?12 A. I don't remember Zelenovic. I think Gojko13 Milanovic and Tuta were there. I was raped by14 Zelenovic. I can't remember about Jankovic and Janjic.15 Q. Do you know if the other girls were also16 raped there?17 A. Yes, the other girls were also raped.18 Q. Were you taken away from that flat?19 A. Yes. The next day we were taken from that20 flat to another one.21 Q. Who took you from that flat to another one?22 A. Radomir Kovac and Jagos Kostic.23 Q. Where did they take you?24 A. They took us to the Brena building, to an25 apartment on the 4th floor.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 175 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. Did they take all four of you?2 A. I think so, yes.3 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher,4 I'd like to show this witness Exhibit 11, photograph5 7401.6 Q. Do you recognise what's in that photograph?7 A. I think it is the Brena building.8 Q. Are you able to see the apartment that you9 were brought to, or at least the balcony of that10 apartment, in this photograph?11 A. I'm sure that this is the Brena building, but12 I cannot be sure whether that is the right entrance to13 that building, I mean the entrance to that apartment.14 Because there were several entrances to that building.15 Q. Do you recall what floor the apartment was16 on?17 A. On the 4th floor.18 Q. That's the 4th floor above the ground floor;19 is that right?20 A. Yes, the 4th floor above the ground floor,21 yes.22 Q. Thank you very much.23 MS. KUO: May I just make a request that the24 light on the ELMO be turned off so there's no glare on25 the witness. Thank you.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 176 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. When you were taken to this apartment in the2 Lepa Brena, what did Kovac do to you there?3 A. Kovac and Kostic, when they brought us to4 that apartment, I remember being raped by Kovac. I5 also know that number 75 was raped by him. As for the6 other two, I know that AS was raped by Kostic, and for7 the fourth, I'm unable to say.8 Q. How long were you kept at that apartment?9 A. I'm not quite sure, but roughly about four10 months.11 Q. During those four months, how often did12 Radomir Kovac rape you?13 A. That depended. Sometimes every night.14 Sometimes Kovac was absent, he would be away from the15 flat for a couple of days, but if he was in the flat,16 then it would usually happen every night.17 Q. I apologise for having to ask you this again,18 but when you use the word "rape," could you tell the19 Court specifically what you mean?20 A. I think he forced his penis into my vagina21 against my will.22 Q. Did he also force his penis into your mouth?23 A. Yes.24 Q. In addition to these rapes, did Klanfa do25 anything else to you girls?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 177 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. I remember Klanfa and Kostic on one occasion2 forcing us girls to strip, and on one occasion, Kovac3 forced me alone to strip, to climb on the table, and to4 dance.5 Q. The incident that you described when Kovac6 and Kostic forced all of you girls to strip, could you7 tell the Court in more detail what they forced you to8 do?9 A. He forced us to take our clothes off, all our10 clothes, to stand one next to another. I can't11 remember whether we had to stand on the bed or on the12 floor. I can't remember that exactly, but I do13 remember that he forced us to take all our clothes off14 and to stand there naked.15 Q. Did he also turn on music?16 A. That time I can't remember whether he did or17 not.18 Q. And what did he do after he forced you all to19 take your clothes off?20 A. I think they just sat there and watched,21 though I'm not -- I didn't really see that. I didn't22 watch what they were doing.23 Q. Did Kovac or Kostic have a weapon with them24 at that time?25 A. They always had weapons with them.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 178 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 13 the English and French pagination. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 179 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. What kind of weapons?2 A. I think they had rifles and pistols and3 knives.4 Q. Was there another time when Kovac forced all5 of you to take your clothes off?6 A. Yes. This was in another apartment. I think7 it was somewhere in Gornje Polje, although I'm not8 quite sure about that. I think he forced us to strip9 and to stand on the table, and when he said that he10 would take us through the town naked and take us to the11 river where he would kill us.12 Q. When you say "he," who are you referring to?13 A. I'm referring to Kovac.14 Q. And you said that he would take you through15 the town to the river. Did he, in fact, do that?16 A. Yes, he did that, though when he said that he17 would do that, I can't remember whether it was him or18 Kostic who said that we should put our clothes on and19 then we did. After we put our clothes on, he took us20 to the river.21 Q. What happened at the river?22 A. I don't remember that, actually, very well.23 I just know I was terribly frightened, and I just kept24 thinking how they were going to do that, in what way.25 I know that shortly after that, he took us back to hisTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 180 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 apartment.2 Q. And by "he" you mean Kovac as well; right?3 A. Yes.4 Q. You mentioned one other incident when Kovac5 alone forced you to take your clothes off. Can you6 describe for the Court what happened at that time?7 A. Yes. I was alone at the time in the room.8 He forced me to take my clothes off, to climb on the9 table, and to dance to music. He was sitting on the10 bed with a pistol pointed at me.11 Q. What kind of music was it, do you remember?12 A. I think it was typical -- our music. Our13 typical music. Folk music.14 Q. When you say "our," what do you mean by15 "our"?16 A. I mean music from Bosnia.17 Q. When you were forced to do this, how did you18 feel?19 A. It is again difficult to describe. I was20 frightened. I was ashamed. I don't know what to say.21 Q. Did you feel like you could control what was22 happening to you in any way?23 A. No.24 Q. Did you feel like Kovac owned you?25 A. Yes.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 181 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. Can you describe why you felt that way?2 A. That too is rather difficult to explain,3 since in the apartment there were only Kovac and Kostic4 and only me and AS. We couldn't go out anywhere; the5 doors were locked. We knew that Kovac would take me to6 one room and Kostic would take AS to the other room.7 That was how it was until the very end.8 Q. You mentioned earlier that when you were9 first brought to the apartment there was, in addition10 to you and AS, also 75 and AB. Is that right?11 A. Yes.12 Q. When were 75 and AB taken away?13 A. I cannot remember the exact time, but I think14 it was shortly after we came to Klanfa's apartment. I15 don't remember for how many days they stayed there16 exactly.17 Q. Do you remember the circumstances under which18 they were taken away, how they were taken away?19 A. I don't remember that too well. I think they20 simply came, picked the two of them up and took them21 away. I don't remember anything in particular.22 Q. In addition to the time that you've described23 to us when you were taken down to the river, were you24 or any of the other girls also taken outside the25 apartment?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 182 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. At the time when I and AS were alone in that2 apartment, I remember that we left the apartment3 several times. And while the other two girls were with4 us, I think we were taken out perhaps two or three5 times. I don't remember exactly.6 Q. You said it was just you and AS, and you left7 the apartment. Did you leave alone or were you taken8 out?9 A. I think they took us out. We couldn't leave10 the apartment alone because we were locked in.11 Q. On those occasions, where were you taken?12 A. I remember once they took us to an apartment13 in Donje Polje; once they took us to another apartment,14 which I can't really remember; and several times they15 took us out to cafes and pubs and the like.16 Q. What would they do when they took you to the17 cafes and pubs?18 A. They would simply tell us to get dressed.19 Usually they would force us to put on some hats or20 something with the signs of their army or something21 like that, and then they would simply take us there to22 a cafe, a coffee bar. Nothing special. We would23 simply go there and sit there and then come back.24 Q. When you say "they," was it Kovac and25 Kostic?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 183 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 13 the English and French pagination. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 184 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. Yes.2 Q. While you were kept in that apartment, did3 Kovac or Kostic ever hit or beat you?4 A. Kostic hit me, I remember, once. Once he5 threatened with a knife, that he would cut up my face.6 I remember that time. Kovac, I don't remember that7 Kovac ever hit me.8 Q. Did Kostic or Kovac ever threaten you in9 other ways?10 A. There were a couple of times when they11 threatened that they would kill us, slit our throats.12 Q. And before AB and 75 were taken away, could13 you see what effect all this was happening [sic] on AB?14 A. I don't understand the question.15 Q. Did you see, or do you know what kind of16 physical or mental state AB was in by the time she17 left, was taken away?18 A. I couldn't really tell you about her physical19 state. There were no visible things that she could20 say. As for her mental state, it was quite evident on21 her that she wasn't all right. She didn't talk much.22 Sometimes she behaved strangely. And in Karaman's23 House she couldn't sleep, and when she did sleep, she24 had nightmares.25 Q. Are you able to recognise Kovac today?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 185 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 A. Yes.2 Q. Would you please look around the courtroom3 and tell us if you recognise him.4 A. Yes.5 Q. Would you please describe what he's wearing.6 A. A dark grey suit, I think it's a white7 shirt -- I think it's white. I'm not sure -- and a8 grey tie with a dark grey and light grey pattern on it.9 MS. KUO: Would the record reflect that this10 witness has identified the accused Radomir Kovac.11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.12 MS. KUO:13 Q. When were you finally taken away from Kovac's14 apartment?15 A. Again, I don't remember the exact date. I16 think it was sometime in February, perhaps mid-February17 or end of February. I don't remember.18 Q. Do you know what the circumstances were or19 how you came to be taken away?20 A. I remember that there were two of them, two21 soldiers from Montenegro, who spoke to Kovac and22 Kostic, and that they wanted to take us, though Kovac23 and Kostic wanted money in exchange. I think in the24 end AS was sold by Kovac and Kostic to these25 Montenegrins for 500 German marks, for one.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 186 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 Q. And what happened to you?2 A. You mean me and AS?3 Q. Yes.4 A. I don't know whether that was the next day5 exactly, but not long after that we were taken to6 another apartment -- I think it was also in the Brena7 building -- and those Montenegrins were staying in that8 apartment. I think we spent the night there, one9 night, and that they then took us to another apartment10 at Brod, and I think we had to wait there for those11 Montenegrins to take us across the border to12 Montenegro.13 Q. Now, you mentioned that you knew AS was sold14 for 500 German marks. Do you know if you were sold as15 well?16 A. Yes. Both of us were sold for that sum.17 Q. Did you actually hear the negotiations18 between the two Montenegrins and Kostic and Kovac?19 A. Yes. I heard the negotiations, though not20 all of them, because we were not in the same room. AS21 and me were not in the same room in which they were22 negotiating, but we heard a part of the conversation.23 Q. Were you taken over the border into24 Montenegro?25 A. Yes. I don't remember exactly for how longTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 187 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 13 the English and French pagination. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 188 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 we waited in the apartment at Brod, but finally those2 Montenegrins escorted me and AS across the border, or,3 to be more precise, to Niksic.4 Q. When you say "escorted," how did they take5 you over the border?6 A. We went by car. And there was another7 Montenegrin there with us, also from Niksic. I think8 that they were purchasing weapons on that occasion as9 well, because they were hiding the weapons in the car,10 under the seat, in the boot, and so on. And they told11 us that when we reached the border of Bosnia and12 Montenegro, that we should say that we were Serb, and13 they gave us names that we should use, and that we14 should say we had no ID documents, that they had been15 destroyed, or something to that effect.16 When we reached the border, there weren't too17 many problems over this. We spent maybe 15 minutes18 there and then they took us to Niksic.19 Q. What happened to you in Niksic?20 A. In Niksic we lived in the apartment of one of21 these Montenegrins, and a few days after that we22 started working as waitresses in a coffee bar. We did23 that the whole time, until we were taken to Podgorica.24 Q. When you say you started working as25 waitresses, were you forced to or did you do thatTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 189 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 voluntarily?2 A. No, it wasn't voluntarily; it was forcibly.3 Q. Were you ever paid for that work?4 A. No. They never paid us for that work, but me5 and AS could earn a small sum of money from tips left6 by customers.7 Q. What happened to you when you were taken to8 Podgorica?9 A. We were taken to an apartment in Podgorica,10 in a building. I don't remember the exact floor the11 apartment was on. I remember that there was another12 man there, a Montenegrin. But he was working and -- he13 worked, and he was only in the apartment for three or14 four hours during the afternoon.15 Q. Were you finally able to escape?16 A. Yes. We didn't spend long in Podgorica. I17 don't know exactly how long, but not a long time. The18 Montenegrins who brought us there, brought us to Niksic19 and to Podgorica, weren't there at the time. They only20 came perhaps once. And as there was nobody there,21 nobody in the apartment at about 3.00 in the afternoon,22 and the apartment wasn't locked, I and AS were able to23 go outside. And I remember that we were very scared at24 first. We wondered who we would meet in the street.25 But the second time was easier. Podgorica,Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 190 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 14 the English and French pagination. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 191 Examined by Ms. Kuo 1 at that time, was not in a state of war. The people2 behaved normally. So that we felt relieved in a way.3 On one of the subsequent occasions, we tried4 to find a way of getting out of there somehow, and I5 remember that we found the bus stop, the bus station,6 and we looked at the timetable and how much the tickets7 cost, and we decided to leave one day, quite simply, to8 leave there.9 Q. And did you do that?10 A. Yes, that's what we did. I think it was11 sometime around the 5th of April when we left Podgorica12 for Rozaje.13 Q. Now, the two Montenegrins who bought you from14 Kostic and Kovac, did they ever sexually assault you?15 A. Yes, both of us, both myself and AS. They16 raped us. All three of those Montenegrins raped us,17 even the fourth one who lived in Podgorica.18 Q. As a result of all the rapes that you19 suffered during these many months, did you continue to20 suffer?21 A. In a way, yes. I think that I'm once again22 at a point where I find it difficult to explain. I23 think that I have decided to try and leave many of24 those things behind me somewhere, although within me, I25 still have and there will always be traces ofTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 192 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 everything that happened to me. I think that for the2 whole of my life, all my life I will have thoughts of3 that and feel the pain that I felt then and still4 feel. That will never go away.5 MS. KUO: Those are all the questions from6 the Prosecution, Your Honours.7 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by Defence8 counsel. Who will begin?9 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:10 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,12 I would like to ask the witness to approach the13 microphone, because I found it difficult to hear her.14 She speaks quietly. So with all due respect, could she15 just come closer to the microphone, please. Thank16 you.17 Q. Thank you, Witness. According to the18 information you gave to the Prosecution and the19 investigators of the Tribunal -- you gave two20 statements, in fact. Do you remember whether they were21 two or --22 A. Yes. I remember that there were two23 statements.24 Q. Did you give any statements to anybody else?25 A. No.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 193 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 Q. Apart from those two?2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I should now3 like to ask the usher to show the witness ...4 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We need to5 know whether these are the witness statements from 19th6 and 20th of January, 1996, and 4th and 5th of May,7 1998.8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Therefore,10 the witness statement dated 19th and 20th of January,11 1996 will be marked D32, Defence Exhibit D32; and the12 witness statement dated 4th and 5th of May, 1998 will13 be marked D33, Defence Exhibit D33, and these are14 documents that are confidential documents.15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Counsel, please16 proceed.17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]18 Q. In your statement which you gave to the19 investigators of the Tribunal in 1996, you said that20 you and your family lived in Buk Bijela.21 A. Yes.22 Q. With your mother, father, brother, and23 sister.24 A. Yes.25 Q. Did you live in an apartment or in a house?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 194 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 A. In a house.2 Q. In your family house?3 A. Yes.4 Q. Today during your testimony, you said that5 you lived in Trosanj. Could you explain that to me,6 please?7 A. What.8 Q. Did you live in Trosanj or Buk Bijela? Or9 perhaps I don't understand where Buk Bijela is in10 respect to Trosanj or the other way around, or did you11 go to Trosanj?12 A. No. I lived in Trosanj. There is a motorway13 down below, and Trosanj is up in the mountains.14 Mjesaja and Buk Bijela are near the road. If you write15 an address, for example, your address, then you would16 write Trosanj, and then you say Buk Bijela to17 determine.18 Q. Thank you. What is your father by way of19 profession and where did he work?20 A. (redacted)21 (redacted).22 Q. And what about your mother?23 A. My mother was a housewife.24 Q. What were the relationships in your family25 like; that is to say, who were you closest to in yourTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 195 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 family, most intimate with?2 A. I think it was my sister.3 Q. Thank you. Did you tell your sister about4 your problems until the conflict broke out in the Foca5 area?6 A. Not always. Sometimes, yes.7 Q. What was your sister's attitude? Did she8 ever try to advise you, give you any advice in9 situations like that when you sought it?10 A. Yes, she would.11 Q. Did your sister ever ask you for advice and12 what you thought about the problems that she had, the13 daily type of problems and the talks that sisters have14 in the age that you were?15 A. Well, not very often. She was older than me,16 and I don't think she asked me for my advice at all17 ever.18 Q. You said that in the Foca municipality,19 something unusual was going on before April 1992.20 Could you explain that to me a little bit; that is,21 explain to this Trial Chamber and to me what you22 thought was unusual?23 A. Well, I went to school at the time, and we24 usually had shorter classes than usual, especially25 before the 8th of April, before the shooting actuallyTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 196 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 began. We would have shorter classes and were allowed2 to go home earlier sometimes. Barricades were set up3 at some points and sometimes I wasn't able to go home4 because of the checkpoints. And I remember that5 several days before the shooting started, that there6 was a rally of some kind in front of the municipal7 building or something of that sort.8 Q. That rally in front of the municipality9 building, when did that take place and do you know10 anything about it?11 A. Well, I don't know exactly when the rally12 took place. Perhaps it was only a few days before the13 shooting actually started, but why the rally was held14 and what it was all about, I really couldn't say.15 Q. In that period or in your house, was anything16 spoken about the Focatrans affair, or did you come to17 hear of that affair in any other way, that incident?18 A. Well, I don't know what the Focatrans affair19 is.20 Q. How did you usually go to school up until21 then? While you still went to school, how did you go?22 A. Well, I'd always go by bus.23 Q. Which bus?24 A. How do you mean which bus?25 Q. Were there any characteristic features on theTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 197 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 bus?2 A. No. They were the usual type of bus that3 always runs that way. I couldn't say whether it had4 any characteristic features or not.5 Q. I know that you're young, but did you know or6 was it talked about in your home about the fact that7 some parties were being founded and that relations had8 changed after the establishment of those parties?9 A. No. I knew nothing about that at the time.10 I knew nothing about that.11 Q. You have now told me that there were some12 barricades. Where were those barricades set up?13 A. I don't remember that. I don't remember14 where the barricades were exactly.15 Q. And do you know who set them up?16 A. I couldn't say that either. I don't know.17 Q. In the place in which you lived, can you tell18 us how many Serbs there were as opposed to Muslims?19 A. Well, I couldn't tell you.20 Q. What about your neighbours? Were they Serbs,21 and if so, what were your relations with your22 neighbours?23 A. My next-door neighbours were Muslims; that24 is, when I'm talking about Trosanj. Then this was a25 Muslim population. Although in Mjesaja, for example,Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 198 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 it was a mixed population, a mixed Serb/Muslim2 population, as was the case in the surrounding areas.3 I think the surrounding areas had a Serb population. I4 don't know what to say about the relationships between5 the two ethnicities. I never noticed there was any6 difference in them than what was the case previously.7 Q. You said that you and your family had taken8 to the woods.9 A. Yes.10 Q. Could you tell me when that occurred?11 A. I don't know the exact date. I couldn't tell12 you the exact date.13 Q. May I help you with respect to the event that14 happened on the 3rd of July in your village? How far15 off was it from that 3rd of July?16 A. I don't quite understand your question.17 Q. How long before that did you go to the woods?18 A. Well, I'm not quite sure about that either,19 but I think for a time -- we spent some time in the20 woods, and we slept with two other families there. And21 for a time, we came back home, we were in our house for22 a little while, and then we went to the woods again.23 How many days that was before the attack, I couldn't24 exactly say.25 Q. Could you tell me: While you were in theTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 199 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 woods, were you there all day and all night, or was the2 arrangement different?3 A. Well, usually we would spend the whole day4 and the whole night in the woods, although my mother5 and my father would go back home to see to their daily6 duties.7 Q. During the time you spent in the woods and8 then came back, was anything going on? Did anything9 happen around your village and in the woods while you10 were there?11 A. Around our village, or rather in our village,12 I don't think that anything special was going on, apart13 from the fact that we didn't dare leave the village, go14 beyond the village anywhere. But nothing special15 happened before the 3rd of July.16 Q. Will you tell me why you didn't dare move17 around freely? Were there any threats or did anybody18 say that you should hide?19 A. I don't remember that exactly, because I was20 15 1/2, and you usually listen to what people tell21 you. But I think that there was a sort of general22 fear. I think that everybody knew, or had heard on the23 news or something like that, what had happened in some24 other village, in some other place, things like that.25 Q. In your statement you say that there was noTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 200 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 13 the English and French pagination. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 201 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 electricity in your village, so how did you get -- come2 by that information?3 A. Well, the radio, for example. You don't need4 electricity to listen to a radio. There are5 battery-operated radios, or otherwise. I don't really6 know.7 Q. You said that you were in tents in the woods;8 that is to say, you, your family, and another family.9 A. Two other families.10 Q. Two other families. In view of the fact that11 we would like to protect these people, could you write12 down on a piece of paper who the other two families13 were, their names, please.14 [Witness complies]15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document16 will be marked Defence Exhibit D34.17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel.18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.19 Q. You mentioned these two families. Where did20 they come from?21 A. They were our next-door neighbours.22 Q. How many members were there in one family and23 how many in the other family?24 A. The first family had four members, and so did25 the second.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 202 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 Q. How many men were there in all who were your2 father's age?3 A. Well, I don't know the exact age, but the4 older men, I'd say -- I think -- yes, three.5 Q. How many people were there of your own age?6 A. Well, there was nobody of my own age. There7 was nobody my own age.8 Q. Except for you and your sister. That's what9 I'm referring to, the younger girls. All the others10 were younger, were they?11 A. Well, one of the families had two younger12 children. I think the eldest child was perhaps 10 or13 12. And the second family had two grown-up men, young14 men, who were 25 years old, perhaps.15 Q. You said you spent the night in the woods.16 Did anybody guard you during the night, and did any of17 those people have any weapons in case you were18 attacked?19 A. None of us had any weapons, and I think that20 the older people who were with us would stay awake all21 night.22 Q. You said that you spent -- that is to say,23 how long did you spend there before the 3rd of July? A24 month, two months, 15 days? How long?25 A. Well, I couldn't really say.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 203 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 Q. You can't say. Thank you. I would now like2 to ask you a few questions related to your arrival in3 Partizan.4 A. Yes?5 Q. Could you tell me, please, when you arrived6 in Partizan.7 A. Once again, as to the exact date and time, I8 don't really remember very well, but it could have been9 two weeks after the 3rd of July, perhaps. We were at10 the secondary school centre for about two weeks before11 we were taken to Partizan. Perhaps two weeks, although12 I'm not quite sure.13 Q. Do you agree with me that this would make it14 sometime around the 17th or 18th of July?15 A. Yes, approximately, about that, although I'm16 not quite sure.17 Q. Tell me, please: On that particular date,18 17th and 18th of July, when you arrived, what was going19 on at the Partizan Sports Hall?20 A. You mean --21 Q. I mean the conditions there, what22 relationships existed between you.23 A. Before we arrived in the Partizan, we had to24 clean -- that is, when we arrived, we had to clean25 everything up. We slept on the gym mats. The livingTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 204 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 conditions were very difficult. There was absolutely2 no -- there were absolutely no hygienic conditions.3 The food was very bad, hygiene was poor. I don't know4 what to say exactly.5 Q. In your statement, the statement you gave to6 the investigators of the Tribunal, which is Exhibit7 D32, on page 9 of that statement -- would you take a8 look at page 9 of your statement, please, and look at9 paragraph 3, which starts, "The Partizan Sports10 Hall ..."11 A. Yes.12 Q. Could you read that first line out, please.13 A. You mean, "We were the first prisoners in the14 Partizan"?15 Q. No. It is the third sentence.16 A. "There was electricity in the Partizan17 sometimes, sometimes not."18 Q. That would be the fourth. Read the third19 paragraph.20 A. "I was detained at Partizan for a month. The21 first three or four days they would leave us alone.22 However --"23 Q. Thank you. "I was kept at Partizan for about24 a month. The first three or four days we were left25 alone." That is how the sentences read. You know whatTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 205 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 you read out?2 A. Yes.3 Q. Tell us, please, how long did you spend at4 Partizan?5 A. I'm not quite sure about that either. I6 don't know how long it was. I'm not sure.7 Q. Was it a month or was it less than a month,8 or more than a month?9 A. Well, I would say that it was about a month.10 Whether it was more or less, I couldn't be sure about11 that.12 Q. Could you explain to me this second13 sentence: "The first three or four days we were left14 alone."15 A. Well, I don't really understand what this16 refers to, so I can't really explain it.17 Q. Is it your statement?18 A. Yes. Of course it is, yes. But I don't19 know -- I said that I don't understand what this20 actually referred to. When I say we were left alone, I21 don't really know what it means.22 Q. Were you able to go outside the sports hall23 at all, move around outside? Were you able to?24 A. Well, we could go out into the courtyard25 around Partizan, but not further than that.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 206 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 Q. As far as I was able to understand you, you2 were able to go outside into the yard.3 A. Well, for example, in front of the entrance,4 that sort of thing.5 Q. What about in front of the Partizan Sports6 Hall? Were there guards positioned at the entrance?7 A. Yes. Yes, there were guards.8 Q. Were they during the day and during the9 night?10 A. I think they were there during the day and11 during the night, yes.12 Q. Do you know or did you meet a woman there who13 was a Serb, an ethnic Serb? Did you talk to her?14 A. I don't remember that.15 Q. Does the name Vida mean anything to you?16 A. No.17 Q. Could you tell me, please, how many guards18 did a shift?19 A. Well, I can't quite remember, but there might20 have been two perhaps, although I'm not sure.21 Q. What were your relationships with the guards;22 that is to say, how did they behave towards you?23 A. Well, I never talked to them. I never24 actually noticed. I didn't have -- I don't know.25 Q. Could you tell me, please, how many times youTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 207 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 were taken out of Partizan?2 A. I couldn't tell you. I don't know the exact3 number of times.4 Q. Could I help you and try to refresh your5 memory and tell you the places you were taken to6 according to your statement? Can I help to jog your7 memory in that way perhaps?8 A. Well, a lot of time has gone by since that.9 Sometimes -- I remember some of the times I was taken10 out of Partizan but not others, but what I do know is11 that it was many times.12 Q. Let me remind you that you gave a statement13 in 1996 and another one in 1998. Could you tell me14 when your memory was better with respect to the things15 you're talking about here? Did you remember better16 then, or do you remember better now?17 JUDGE MUMBA: This witness was fifteen and a18 half, so that type of question she can't answer.19 Whether her memory was better when, no, it's not fair20 to ask her that question.21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,22 I apologise, but the witness made a statement in 1996,23 a very detailed statement about those events, and I24 just wanted to check whether what she said then was25 correct.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 208 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What you do is you put2 whatever she said there to her, not asking her the3 state of her memory at any time, no.4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,5 Your Honour.6 Q. I should now like to ask the witness to turn7 to page 9 of her statement from 1996. It is the last8 paragraph on that page. "Most frequently, from9 Partizan" -- could you read it, please?10 A. "From Partizan we were taken mostly to11 apartments and houses around Foca. Most of the time I12 was taken with --"13 Q. Seventy-five. Let me help you. Number 75.14 Read another two lines, please.15 A. "We were taken to different places like16 Brena, Donje Polje, Gornje Polje, Trnovace, near the17 primary school in Foca, to the Aladza area."18 Q. Can you remember how many times you were19 taken to the Brena building?20 A. From Partizan?21 Q. Yes.22 A. I couldn't tell you the exact number of23 times.24 Q. And were you taken from Partizan to Brena?25 A. I'm afraid I couldn't say about that either.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 209 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 Q. You said Donji Polje here. And where were2 you taken in Donje Polje. Was it an apartment or a3 house there? If you can describe it to us.4 A. I don't remember that.5 Q. In Donje Polje? Do you remember who took you6 to Donje Polje?7 A. No.8 Q. Could you please explain to me: In relation9 to Partizan, where is Donje Polje? What is it?10 A. It's a part of the town called Donje Polje.11 Q. Is it an inhabited part of the town of Foca?12 A. Yes.13 Q. Are there apartment buildings there or14 houses?15 A. I think there were both, both houses and16 apartment buildings.17 Q. And Gornje Polje?18 A. I couldn't tell you.19 Q. And where is Gornje Polje in relation to20 Partizan?21 A. I'm not quite sure.22 Q. Is it a part of the town of Foca?23 A. Yes. Both Donje Polje and Gornje Polje are24 parts of Foca.25 Q. What about Trnovace?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 210 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 A. Trnovace could be a village or a district,2 I'm not sure, but it is a bit further away from Foca.3 Q. Were you taken there too from Partizan?4 A. Yes.5 Q. Could you please tell me how many times you6 were taken to Aladza?7 A. I remember being taken there once, but I8 think I was taken there several times. I can only9 remember one time.10 Q. When you say "several times," can you tell me11 how many times that is, one, two, or three times?12 A. No, I can't.13 Q. Can you remember who took you several times14 there?15 A. To Aladza?16 Q. Yes.17 A. I think it was always Kunarac, if you mean to18 the house in Aladza.19 Q. Yes. This house in Aladza, in relation to20 Partizan, where is it located? How far is it from21 Partizan? Can you go there on foot or do you need to22 take a car?23 A. One can go on foot, of course. Aladza is a24 part of the town of Foca. I couldn't tell you how far25 away it is.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 211 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 Q. But you just said that one could go on foot2 or by car. But how did you go mostly to that house?3 A. Mostly by car.4 Q. When were you taken to Aladza for the first5 time?6 A. I don't remember that. I remember just that7 one time, the day before we were taken to Miljevina.8 Q. I see. You remember that day. If I ask you9 to look again at your statement, it is page 9 of the10 statement, when you said: "For the first three or four11 days we were left alone." So I understand that to mean12 that you were free and no one came to Partizan.13 A. I don't know what to say about that.14 Q. And after those three or four days, when were15 you taken out for the first time and where?16 A. I don't know exactly how many days after I17 came to Partizan, and I don't remember exactly where I18 was taken that first time I was taken out of Partizan.19 Q. Do you remember, in relation to the time you20 arrived in Partizan and then those first three or four21 days until you were taken to Miljevina, do you remember22 whether you left Partizan at all in the interim?23 A. What do you mean?24 Q. I mean, in an organised manner were you taken25 to some other location?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 212 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 A. You mean myself or several people?2 Q. I don't know how many people. Could you tell3 us how many of you did go out of Partizan to some other4 place?5 A. I don't know of anyone leaving and going6 elsewhere unless they were taken there.7 Q. I should like to remind you that an exchange8 was organised in that period and departure to Cajnice.9 A. Yes.10 Q. Do you remember when that was?11 A. No, I can't remember.12 Q. Do you remember -- you said several people --13 who those people were that went with you and who left?14 A. I don't remember who they were.15 Q. Could you use the list that you have and16 write down on a piece of paper the persons who left17 with you, went out with you?18 A. I couldn't write a list, because I think19 there were quite a number of people, and I couldn't20 remember exactly who they were.21 Q. But those that you remember from your list,22 as you have the list before you.23 JUDGE MUMBA: Why can't she use the numbers?24 Is this the list you are talking about, the25 Exhibit 193?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 213 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 14 the English and French pagination. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 214 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness2 may use the list, of course. That's what I told her to3 do, if she could tell us the numbers from that list.4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.5 A. Again, I cannot be sure. I only remember6 exactly number 75, and I think number 50 also. As for7 the others, I cannot tell with any certainty.8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]9 Q. You said 75 and 50.10 A. Yes.11 Q. You cannot give us a time when this12 happened. Was it before the 2nd of August, 1992?13 A. I couldn't tell you.14 Q. Can you tell us how many nights you spent15 outside?16 A. I don't remember that well either, but we17 didn't spend a lot of time.18 Q. Was it one night, two or three?19 A. I don't know.20 Q. Today you said that you remember an event21 when you were taken to Aladza.22 A. Yes.23 Q. When was that?24 A. Well, if you're asking me about a date again,25 then I have to say once again that I don't know. OnTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 215 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 that particular occasion when we were taken to Aladza,2 all I remember is that it was one day before we were3 taken off to Miljevina, but I can't tell you the exact4 date.5 Q. And when was that? At what time of day was6 it, day or night?7 A. I think it was in the afternoon sometime, but8 I'm not quite sure.9 Q. That afternoon, can you tell us roughly was10 it 5.00, 6.00, 7.00, or 8.00?11 A. Well, perhaps about that time, but as I say,12 once again I'm not quite sure. What I want to say is13 that I don't think it was dark yet, but on the other14 hand, it wasn't early either.15 Q. And who came to Partizan?16 A. I only remember Kunarac. I don't remember17 the others.18 Q. Were there other soldiers with him and how19 many?20 A. I don't remember that.21 Q. How did he come to Partizan?22 A. I think he came by car.23 Q. Do you remember what kind of car it was?24 A. No.25 Q. Do you remember the colour of the car?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 216 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 A. No, I don't.2 Q. When he arrived, how was he dressed on that3 occasion?4 A. Well, I don't know. I think that he always5 wore a camouflage uniform, camouflage clothing,6 although I'm not quite sure of that either. That is to7 say, I'm not quite sure what he was wearing on that8 particular occasion.9 Q. Did that camouflage uniform have any insignia10 on it?11 A. I don't remember.12 Q. And what about the other persons who13 accompanied him? Do you remember what they looked14 like?15 A. No, I don't.16 Q. Were they wearing military uniforms too?17 A. I don't remember that.18 Q. When he came, and when you said that he came19 by car -- you don't remember who was with him, you20 don't remember what he looked like -- which of you21 girls or women went with him?22 A. Number 75, number 50, DB, and myself.23 Q. When you reached the house in Aladza, who did24 you find there in the house?25 A. I remember that there were some soldiersTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 217 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 there and that there was another person, number 190.2 Q. When you arrived at that house, there were3 soldiers there. Can you remember the names of any of4 the soldiers; names, nicknames, or anything specific5 about them when you arrived? And where did you sit?6 A. As far as the soldiers are concerned, I7 remember just one of them, and his name was Goran. And8 I remember another one whose nickname was Tolja, and I9 think his surname was Toljic. But I can't remember any10 of the other names. Where I was sitting? Hmm, well, I11 can't tell you exactly.12 Q. Would you please describe Goran, what he13 looked like?14 A. I saw him just once on that occasion, and all15 I remember is that he was tall, and I think he was --16 had sort of dark blond hair, but I'm not quite sure.17 Q. Did you talk to him?18 A. I think I did, but what we talked about, I19 really cannot remember.20 Q. Did he tell you that he had been wounded?21 A. I don't remember.22 Q. How long did you sit together in the house?23 And could you describe the house to me a little bit,24 the layout of the rooms?25 A. How do you mean, how long we sat there?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 218 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 Q. When you entered the house, you said that you2 spoke to Goran. Did you speak to anyone else? How3 much time did you spend sitting there together?4 A. When we came there, we were there the whole5 night, and then the next day we were taken to6 Miljevina. And as far as the layout of the house is7 concerned, on the lower floor -- and I don't really8 remember whether it was the lower floor or a separate9 building perhaps, or like a garage, something like a10 garage, perhaps. It was in the yard, and it looked11 like a workshop of some kind. And you would go up the12 stairs into the house, and then when you come up to the13 above floor, on the left-hand side there was a kitchen,14 if I remember correctly; on the right-hand side there15 was a room; straight on was the bathroom; to the left16 of the bathroom there was another room.17 Q. And where were all of you sitting; in which18 of those rooms?19 A. I don't remember that, but I think that I20 spent most of the time in the room to the left of the21 bathroom. And the windows of that particular room22 looked out onto the street.23 Q. Was there light in the house?24 A. I don't remember.25 Q. You said that you were in the room to theTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 219 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 left.2 A. Yes. I think it was to the left of the3 bathroom.4 Q. When did you go to that room?5 A. I couldn't say.6 Q. From the moment you arrived?7 A. No. I don't know exactly what room I was in,8 for how long, and when.9 Q. Where were the other girls that came with10 you?11 A. I don't remember that either.12 Q. Do you remember number 75, where she was?13 A. No.14 Q. And DB, your sister?15 A. No.16 Q. Number 50?17 A. I think 50 was taken away from the house when18 we arrived there. I think that somebody else took her19 off somewhere.20 Q. From the moment you arrived, until she was21 taken away, how much time went by? Was it before you22 went to the room upstairs?23 A. Well, I think so, yes.24 Q. Do you remember who took her away?25 A. No.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 220 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 Q. In the course of that evening, did she come2 back to that house?3 A. Not as far as I remember, no.4 Q. Who took you to the room to the left? As far5 as I understand, that is on the top floor of the6 house.7 A. Well, all those rooms -- the kitchen, that8 room, and the room to the left of the bathroom --9 they're all on the storey above.10 Q. So they were all upstairs. Who took you to11 that room upstairs?12 A. I don't remember.13 Q. And how much time did you spend in that room?14 A. I couldn't tell you that either. I don't15 know.16 Q. Do you remember that something unusual17 happened that night?18 A. No. No, I don't remember.19 Q. Did anything at all happen to you that night20 in that house?21 A. I don't know what you mean. Do you mean --22 what do you mean, what happened to me?23 Q. I was asking you, when you went upstairs into24 the room, and I asked you how much time you spent in25 that room.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 221 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 A. I don't know how long I was in the room for.2 Q. Who were you with in that room?3 A. I can't remember that either. All I remember4 is that while I was in the house, I was in one room, in5 the other room, and in the workshop, which is in the6 yard.7 Q. Who were you with in the first room?8 A. In the first room to the right-hand side, I9 was with Kunarac.10 Q. When was this in relation to the time when11 you arrived?12 A. I don't remember that. I don't remember13 time.14 Q. Who were you with in the second room after15 that?16 A. I think I was in the workshop with Toljic,17 although I'm not sure. I'm not sure of the order in18 which things happened.19 Q. In the course of that night, were you taken20 out of that house?21 A. No, not further than the yard.22 Q. Were you in a car that night?23 A. I don't remember.24 Q. Does the name Bane ring a bell?25 A. I don't remember.Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 222 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 Q. Could you please describe the room to the2 left in that house. What did it look like and what was3 inside?4 A. I don't know what was inside. I can't5 remember. But I think there was a big display cabinet,6 or cupboard, and that there were two beds or sofas,7 whatever, and -- well, that's it. I don't remember any8 more.9 Q. And where did the window of that room face?10 A. Out onto the street.11 Q. Was there any lighting in the room when you12 entered?13 A. I don't remember.14 Q. You said that you were in that room. How did15 you get into that room; alone or with someone else?16 A. I don't remember.17 Q. You said you were in that room with Kunarac.18 And did he enter the room?19 A. I don't remember.20 Q. What did he look like that night?21 A. How do you mean, what did he look like?22 Q. When he entered the room, what did he look23 like?24 A. I don't remember.25 Q. I know that this is very painful for you, andTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 223 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 all these things that happened as you have described2 them. Could you tell me in somewhat greater detail how3 this contact between you and Mr. Kunarac occurred?4 A. Well, I don't think there was any contact.5 Quite simply, he came, took me, and took me into the6 other room.7 Q. How much time did you spend with him in that8 room?9 A. I don't remember.10 Q. Did anyone come in?11 A. I don't remember that either.12 Q. You left that room, and when did you go to13 the other room?14 A. I don't remember.15 Q. Let me again ask you whether anything special16 happened that night. Did you hear a sound, an17 explosion, some destruction?18 A. Well, I remember that there was an explosion,19 and I thought it was the Aladza mosque, although I20 personally can't remember whether it occurred on that21 particular night or some other night before that. I22 don't actually remember.23 Q. Could you please tell me whether Kunarac took24 his clothes off when he entered the room?25 A. Well, I don't know what you mean by "took hisTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 224 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Blank page inserted in order to ensure the pagination corresponds between 14 the English and French pagination. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 225 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 clothes off." I've already told you that he raped me.2 He must have.3 Q. In which statement did you say that he had4 raped you?5 A. During my testimony today.6 Q. I should now like to ask you to look at your7 statement to the investigators of the Tribunal in8 1996.9 A. Yes.10 Q. Look at page 9, please.11 A. Yes.12 Q. It begins with, the sixth line in the last13 paragraph, "In it there was a sewing machine."14 A. Yes, the sewing machines. I think that the15 owner was a tailor; I don't know who exactly.16 Q. Go on, please.17 A. "I was always taken there by Dragan Kunarac18 to the house there. The first two times there were19 only two soldiers in the house, and both of them were20 Montenegrins. I know that one of them was Dragan21 Toljic, called Tolja, from Niksic. The other one was22 older, but I don't know his name. Both these men raped23 me. On the third occasion, which I will describe in24 more detail later, this house was again filled with25 Montenegrins. I never saw members of Cosa's GuardTuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 226 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 inside the house. Kunarac never took me to another2 house than this one. He did not rape me on the first3 two occasions; only on the third time."4 Q. Could you tell me now, taking into account5 this statement of yours, how many times did Kunarac6 bring you to the house?7 A. I don't know. I don't remember that.8 Q. Let me now remind you of your statement in9 1998. Page 4, the last paragraph. If you could read10 it, please.11 A. Yes. "I do not remember whether Zaga raped12 me that last time when I was taken to the house in13 Aladza. Now I clearly remember that on that occasion I14 was raped by a man whose name was Goran. On that15 occasion, there were several more soldiers in the house16 than usual. They were drinking in the kitchen. Zaga17 was not always present. He would keep going in and18 out."19 Q. Please tell me which is correct, either of20 these two statements or your testimony today? Because21 in 1998, you said that Goran raped you.22 A. What do you mean which is the truth?23 Q. Which is the truth?24 A. What do you mean "which is the truth"?25 Q. What happened that night? Who raped you?Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T Witness: Witness 87 (Open Session) Page 227 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic 1 A. My first statement was taken in 1996, the2 second one two years later, and today I'm talking here3 today and saying what happened eight years ago, so that4 I don't remember many of those things any more.5 Although, I do remember that on that particular night,6 Goran and Zaga were both there in that house.7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,8 I am looking at the time.9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's time for us to rise,10 and we shall continue tomorrow at 0930 hours.11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned12 at 4.02 p.m., to be reconvened on13 Wednesday, the 5th day of April, 2000,14 at 9.30 a.m.1516171819202122232425Tuesday, 04 April 2000 Case No. IT-96-23-T & IT-96-23/1-T

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