THE CORNWALL L’ENQUÊTE PUBLIQUE PUBLIC INQUIRY SUR CORNWALL Public Hearing Audience publique The Honourable Justice / Commissioner L’honorable juge Commissaire G. Normand Glaude VOLUME 11 Held at : Tenue à: Hearings Room Salle des audiences 709 Cotton Mill Street 709, rue de la Fabrique Cornwall, Ontario Cornwall, Ontario K6H 7K7 K6H 7K7 Monday, March 27, 2006 Lundi, le 27 mars 2006 INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. www.irri.net (800) 899-0006 ERRATA Volume 10 February 23rd, 2006 Page 58, line 14 affiance Should read: affiants INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. ii Appearances/Comparutions Mr. Peter Engelmann Lead Commission Counsel Ms. Louise Mongeon Registrar Me Simon Ruel Commission Counsel Mr. John E. Callaghan Cornwall Police Service Board Mr. Mark Crane Mr. Neil Kozloff Ontario Provincial Police Det. Insp. Colleen McQuade Ms. Gina Saccoccio Brannan, Q.C. Mr. Joe Neuberger Ontario Ministry of Community Mr. Mike Lawless and Correctional Services and Adult Community Corrections Ms. Leslie McIntosh Attorney General for Ontario Mr. Peter Chisholm The Children’s Aid Society of the United Counties Mr. Allan Manson Citizens for Community Renewal Mr. Rob Talach Victims Group Mr. Dallas Lee Mr. David Bennett The Men’s Project Mr. David Sherriff-Scott Diocese of Alexandria-Cornwall Me André Ducasse and Bishop Eugene LaRocque Mr. Giuseppe Cipriano The Estate of Ken Seguin and Scott Seguin and Father Charles MacDonald Mr. Mark Wallace Ontario Provincial Police Association INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. iii Table of Contents / Table des matières Page List of Exhibits : iv Opening Remarks 1 Submissions by/Représentation par Mr. Allan Manson 25 Submissions by/Représentation par Mr. Dallas Lee 72 Submissions by/Représentation par Mr. David Bennett 113 Submissions by/Représentation par Mr. John Callaghan 124 INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. iv LIST OF EXHIBITS/LISTE D’EXHIBITS NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. A1 MEMORANDUM OF FACT AND LAW OF THE CITIZENS 4 FOR COMMUNITY RENEWAL – Peter C. Wardle/Allan Manson A2 RECORD OF THE CITIZENS FOR COMMUNITY 4 RENEWAL – Peter C. Wardle/Allan Manson A3 BOOK OF AUTHORITIES OF THE CITIZENS FOR 5 COMMUNITY RENEWAL – Peter C. Wardle/Allan Manson A4 Letter from Mr. Allan Manson dated 5 March 27, 2006 B1 VICTIMS GROUP SUBMISSIONS – Mr. Talach 6 B2 AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT P.M. TALACH 6 C1 SUBMISSIONS OF THE MEN’S PROJECT 16 D1 SUBMISSIONS OF THE CORNWALL POLICE SERVICES 16 IN RESPECT OF WHETHER THE DIOCESE OF ALEXANDRIA-CORNWALL IS A “PUBLIC INSTITUTION” AS DESCRIBED IN THE TERMS OF REFERENCE OF THE ORDER-IN-COUNCIL E1 The Episcopal Corporation of the Diocese of 17 Alexandria-Cornwall - HEARING REGARDING THE TERMS OF REFERENCE OF THE CORNWALL PUBLIC INQUIRY E2 The Episcopal Corporation of the Diocese of 17 Alexandria-Cornwall – AFFIDAVIT OF NEAL FERGUSON Sworn March 21, 2006 E3 The Episcopal Corporation of the Diocese of 18 Alexandria-Cornwall – AFFIDAVIT OF PAUL-ANDRE DUROCHER Sworn March 22, 2006 INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. v LIST OF EXHIBITS/LISTE D’EXHIBITS NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. E4 The Episcopal Corporation of the Diocese of 18 Alexandria-Cornwall – AFFIDAVIT OF FRANCIS G. MORRISEY, OMI Sworn E5 Brief of Authorities of the Episcopal 18 Corporation of the Diocese of Alexandria- Cornwall – Hearing Regarding the Terms of Reference of the Cornwall Public Inquiry - Volume 1 E6 Brief of Authorities of the Episcopal 18 Corporation of the Diocese of Alexandria- Cornwall – Hearing Regarding the Terms of Reference of the Cornwall Public Inquiry - Volume 2 INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. PUBLIC HEARING 1 OPENING REMARKS AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE 1 --- Upon commencing at 10:15 a.m. / 2 L’audience débute à 10h15 3 THE REGISTRAR: Order. All rise. À 4 l’ordre. Veuillez vous lever. 5 This hearing of the Cornwall Public Inquiry 6 is now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Normand 7 Glaude, Commissioner, presiding. 8 Please be seated. Veuillez vous asseoir. 9 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, good morning all. 10 As you may be aware, we’re here on the 11 hearing on the Terms of Reference; more succinctly put, as 12 to whether or not for the purposes of this Commission of 13 Inquiry whether or not the Diocese is in fact a public 14 institution. 15 The last time we were here we had set out 16 who would be responding when and when the material should 17 be due and that’s all been done. So we’re at the 18 beginning, I suppose, of hearing from the different parties 19 their oral submissions. 20 Before doing that, I suppose we have some 21 administrative matters that Mr. Engelmann would want to 22 address, I suppose. 23 MR. ENGELMANN: Thank you. Good morning, 24 Mr. Commissioner. 25 We do, indeed and as you’ve indicated, we’re INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. PUBLIC HEARING 2 OPENING REMARKS AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE 1 dealing with the Diocese issue this morning. 2 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 3 MR. ENGELMANN: And we will be dealing with 4 the motion that Mr. Cipriano filed after this matter is 5 concluded. I anticipate that may well be Wednesday 6 morning. 7 THE COMMISSIONER: M’hm. 8 MR. ENGELMANN: So just by way of 9 background, the parties that have indicated they wish to 10 make oral submissions are the Citizens for Community 11 Renewal; Mr. Manson is here and my understanding is his 12 submissions will take approximately one hour. 13 Then, we have counsel for the Victims Group 14 and we have Mr. Lee and Mr. Talach present and, again, I 15 understand perhaps about an hour in their oral submissions. 16 And then for The Men’s Project we have Mr. 17 Bennett present anticipating 15 to 20 minutes. 18 Then, for the Cornwall Police Service Mr. 19 Callahan, anticipating approximately an hour; and then for 20 the Diocese of Alexandria-Cornwall to respond as all of 21 those parties, those first four parties, are arguing that 22 the Diocese is a public institution for the purposes of 23 this Inquiry. Mr. Sheriff-Scott will be arguing for the 24 Diocese and indication was approximately three hours in 25 response. There may well be a brief reply after that. INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. PUBLIC HEARING 3 OPENING REMARKS AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE 1 So we’ve had a number of materials filed, 2 Mr. Commissioner, and just perhaps we could mark things. 3 As this is a hearing within a hearing, or a hearing on the 4 Terms of Reference, we thought it appropriate to mark 5 various documents that have been filed so they form part of 6 the public record. There were a couple of affidavits that 7 were filed where some parties took some issue. One of 8 those affidavits was withdrawn effectively and a 9 supplementary affidavit put in place. 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 11 MR. ENGELMANN: And that is now the 12 affidavit of Reverend Morrissey on behalf of the Diocese. 13 THE COMMISSIONER: Right. 14 MR. ENGELMANN: And the objection has now 15 been withdrawn. 16 Then, there were some issues dealing with 17 the affidavit of Mr. Talach and when we get there I will 18 have Mr. Talach and/or Mr. Lee speak from the Victims Group 19 and I’m sure Mr. Sheriff-Scott from the Diocese. As I 20 understand, they have had some discussions on resolving 21 some of the conflict they had over the filing of the 22 affidavit. 23 THE COMMISSIONER: All right. 24 MR. ENGELMANN: So to start, then, with 25 respect to material and since we’re following a certain INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. PUBLIC HEARING 4 OPENING REMARKS AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE 1 order, I’ll just follow that order with these exhibits. 2 We have the Factum of the CCR, if I can use 3 the acronym. 4 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 5 MR. ENGELMANN: If that could be filed as 6 Exhibit A1? 7 If anybody has any objection at any time to 8 the filing I’m sure they’ll speak up or jump up, but the 9 factum would be Exhibit A1 for the purposes of the Hearing 10 on the Terms of Reference. 11 --- EXHIBIT NO./PIÉCE NO. A1: 12 Memorandum of fact and law of the Citizens 13 for Community Renewal. 14 MR. ENGELMANN: The record, if it could be 15 filed as A2, and the record includes an affidavit from 16 Professor Choquette and also from Mr. Paul Scott of the 17 Citizens for Community Renewal. 18 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 19 --- EXHIBIT NO./PIÉCE NO. A2: 20 Record of the Citizens for Community 21 Renewal, including affidavits from Professor 22 Choquette and Mr. Paul Scott. 23 MR. ENGELMANN: And you’ll recall there was 24 some discussion about possibly requiring parties to attend 25 and give evidence viva voce. None of the parties requested INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. PUBLIC HEARING 5 OPENING REMARKS AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE 1 that as of last week so we’ll be doing this all on the 2 basis of the affidavit evidence before you and not -- 3 without the need to call an actual witness. 4 THE COMMISSIONER: M’hm. 5 MR. ENGELMANN: So A3 if that could be the 6 Book of Authorities of the Citizens for Community Renewal. 7 --- EXHIBIT NO./PIÉCE NO. A3: 8 Book of Authorities of the Citizens for 9 Community Renewal. 10 MR. ENGELMANN: And there’s one other 11 document, sir, and I’m not sure if you have it. It’s a 12 loose document. It’s a letter we -- I’m sorry. It’s a 13 letter we received, I believe, some time this weekend or 14 early this morning from Mr. Manson and it is a two-page 15 letter. I’m not sure if you have a copy of it, sir? 16 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I do.