COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE HELD AT CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER 158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN 16 APRIL 2021 DAY 376 22 Woodlands Drive Irene Woods, Centurion TEL: 012 941 0587 FAX: 086 742 7088 MOBILE: 066 513 1757 [email protected] CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE HELD AT CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER 158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN DATE OF HEARING: 16 APRIL 2021 TRANSCRIBERS: B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH Page 2 of 335 16 APRIL 2021 – DAY 376 PROCEEDINGS RESUME ON 16 APRIL 2021 (There is no sound for the first minute and 37 seconds.) ADV VAS SONI SC: Chairperson is to put the relevant parts of the affidavit to Montana and ask him whether he accepts what he said or denies and if he denies what the basis of the 00:01:42. CHAIRPERSON: Just one second. The lighting does not seem to be very good. So if somebody could do something about it. Okay alright ja they will attend to it. Yes, yes Mr 10 Soni. ADV VAS SONI SC: Chairperson then we would like to start with the affidavit of Mr Molefe – Mr Montana Mr Molefe’s… CHAIRPERSON: Oh and if you are ready to start at least Mr Montana should… ADV VAS SONI SC: Oh should be sworn in I am sorry. CHAIRPERSON: Do the oath ja or affirmation. Please administer the oath or affirmation. REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record. 20 MR MONTANA: Tshepo Lucky Montana. REGISTRAR: Do you have any objections to taking the prescribed oath? MR MONTANA: Not at all. REGISTRAR: Do you consider the oath binding on your conscience? Page 3 of 335 16 APRIL 2021 – DAY 376 MR MONTANA: Correct. That is correct. REGISTRAR: Do you solemnly… CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry okay let us start afresh. I – if you could speak up a bit I did not hear the answer. I need to hear the answer. MR MONTANA: Sorry Chair I am too tall the system is just a bit – sorry about that. CHAIRPERSON: And you – and it is – I think it does not come out so you cannot raise it. No but that is fine just try 10 your best – oh okay. Okay just start afresh Registrar. REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record. MR MONTANA: Tshepo Lucky Montana. REGISTRAR: Do you have any objections to taking the prescribed oath? MR MONTANA: No. REGISTRAR: Do you consider the oath binding on your conscience? MR MONTANA: I do. REGISTRAR: Do you solemnly swear that the evidence 20 you will give… CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry I did not hear that answer. MR MONTANA: I said I do Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay thank you. Yes continue. REGISTRAR: Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you will give will be the truth; the whole truth and nothing Page 4 of 335 16 APRIL 2021 – DAY 376 but the truth; if so please raise your right hand and say, so help me God. MR MONTANA: So help me God. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Montana; you may be seated. Yes Mr Soni. ADV VAS SONI SC: As you please. Mr Montana you have heard what I have said to the Chairperson about the approach we intend adopting. I want to start with the affidavit of Mr Molefe first you will find it in Bundle D which 10 is in a file in front of you. MR MONTANA: Thanks Chair Mr Soni you – you probably have been interacting with the commission in the last few days and I requested I think on Monday I requested the opportunity to make a statement. I received an email yesterday I think it was just after lunchtime in the afternoon I thought I just going to make – jotted comments at the beginning before we start Chair and I was told that no you can – you can make your statement but if you – if you submit that and I think I have 20 been in interaction with your team and sent them email even in the early hours of this morning Chair because I think – Chair I think there has been a lot said about the – about PRASA, about me and I think it is more than fair that I be afforded opportunity to – to address a few things that are of concern to me. Page 5 of 335 16 APRIL 2021 – DAY 376 Chair I have honoured notwithstanding the fact … CHAIRPERSON: Just one second before you proceed Mr Montana. I did hear that you might wish or you would wish to make a statement. I think I have been told there is a statement but I have not had – I have not actually seen it. It might have been sent to me but I just have not had time and I have not read it. I normally want to see it if it a written statement so that I can satisfy myself that it is not going to implicate people who have not been notified and 10 so on. So – so I assume you have got the statement Mr Soni? ADV VAS SONI SC: We received it – I received it a few minutes ago Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay. MR MONTANA: It is about 98 pages. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV VAS SONI SC: I just looked at it very quickly. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV VAS SONI SC: So I do not… 20 CHAIRPERSON: You have not had a chance to… ADV VAS SONI SC: I have not even… CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV VAS SONI SC: Except for the fact that it is from Mr Montana I know nothing about it. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Is that more or less correct it is Page 6 of 335 16 APRIL 2021 – DAY 376 about 98 pages? MR MONTANA: Chair indeed. I – the intention is not to read the full statement. Chair you would recall that I have raised numerous concerns about the process that we have embarked upon. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR MONTANA: At the commission. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR MONTANA: And Chair I think let me say that the 10 commission told me I think it was at five past two yesterday that if you want to make a statement it must be a written statement submitted. And I submitted it – it is true because I had to sit down and write the statement in the early hours of this morning. And I know Chair that the procedure is very important. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. MR MONTANA: (Speaking in vernacular) Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR MONTANA: That… 20 CHAIRPERSON: Especially (speaking in vernacular). MR MONTANA: Indeed Chair indeed Chair. So I think I would appreciate Chair I promise I am not implicating anyone. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR MONTANA: Beyond what I would have said in my other Page 7 of 335 16 APRIL 2021 – DAY 376 affidavit that is the subject of discussion and debate between myself and the commission. CHAIRPERSON: Well just before you proceed Mr Montana both you and I have just said some things in a language other than Isi-Zulu we need to share with everybody so you must start to say what you said in Isi-Zulu or is it Isi-Xhosa then I will also say what I said. I will put it in English so that nobody thinks that we do not want some people to understand what … 10 MR MONTANA: Chair I am not sure if I can try. CHAIRPERSON: (speaking in vernacular). MR MONTANA: (speaking in vernacular) I can translate Zulu I am Pedi. CHAIRPERSON: (speaking in vernacular). MR MONTANA: (speaking in vernacular). CHAIRPERSON: Maybe … MR MONTANA: You are better placed Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Maybe in a friendly you meant you are asking in a friendly way you are not fighting. 20 MR MONTANA: In a respectful manner Chair. CHAIRPERSON: In a respectful way. Yes, yes. MR MONTANA: That we may not have – because of the time. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR MONTANA: That I have received. Chair I mean let me Page 8 of 335 16 APRIL 2021 – DAY 376 be very frank. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Maybe before you do that let me say also what I said I simply said in Isi-Zulu that especially because he had just taken the oath literally translated what he said was he was asking in a – what is it – church spirit literally you know or… MR MONTANA: (Speaking in vernacular). CHAIRPERSON: It is meant – it is meant to say in a respectful way. So I said particularly because he had just 10 taken the oath. That is what I said. You – you are – I get the impression that you are now saying well because that statement we have not read and it is long one needs a lot of time. I am suspecting you want to say can you just be given a chance to say a few words. Is that correct? MR MONTANA: Indeed. CHAIRPERSON: And are not going to implicate anybody. MR MONTANA: Indeed – indeed Chair I will appreciate that indeed. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Five minutes? 20 MR MONTANA: No Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Ten minutes? MR MONTANA: Chair I think we – I thought you were working on averages of thirty minutes Chair for… CHAIRPERSON: No I – no I have been – I think I cannot say that I have been definite with everybody but generally Page 9 of 335 16 APRIL 2021 – DAY 376 speaking it has been between ten to fifteen minutes maybe twenty but if somebody says I know so and so he went to thirty then maybe that might be happen but most of the time it has been ten, fifteen, twenty minutes.