LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 7 November 2019 1257 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS Thursday, 7 November 2019 The Council continued to meet at Nine o'clock MEMBERS PRESENT: THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG THE HONOURABLE TOMMY CHEUNG YU-YAN, G.B.S., J.P. PROF THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH LEE KOK-LONG, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JEFFREY LAM KIN-FUNG, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAK-KAN, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHAN KIN-POR, G.B.S., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PRISCILLA LEUNG MEI-FUN, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE PAUL TSE WAI-CHUN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE CLAUDIA MO 1258 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 7 November 2019 THE HONOURABLE STEVEN HO CHUN-YIN, B.B.S. THE HONOURABLE FRANKIE YICK CHI-MING, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE WU CHI-WAI, M.H. THE HONOURABLE YIU SI-WING, B.B.S. THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHARLES PETER MOK, J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHI-CHUEN THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAN-PAN, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG, S.B.S., M.H., J.P. THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LEUNG DR THE HONOURABLE KWOK KA-KI THE HONOURABLE DENNIS KWOK WING-HANG THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG WAH-FUNG, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE IP KIN-YUEN THE HONOURABLE ELIZABETH QUAT, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LIAO CHEUNG-KONG, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE POON SIU-PING, B.B.S., M.H. DR THE HONOURABLE CHIANG LAI-WAN, S.B.S., J.P. IR DR THE HONOURABLE LO WAI-KWOK, S.B.S., M.H., J.P. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 7 November 2019 1259 THE HONOURABLE ALVIN YEUNG THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WAN SIU-KIN THE HONOURABLE JIMMY NG WING-KA, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE HO KAI-MING THE HONOURABLE HOLDEN CHOW HO-DING THE HONOURABLE SHIU KA-FAI, J.P. THE HONOURABLE SHIU KA-CHUN THE HONOURABLE WILSON OR CHONG-SHING, M.H. THE HONOURABLE YUNG HOI-YAN, J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PIERRE CHAN THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHUN-YING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE TANYA CHAN THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG KWOK-KWAN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE LUK CHUNG-HUNG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE JEREMY TAM MAN-HO THE HONOURABLE GARY FAN KWOK-WAI THE HONOURABLE AU NOK-HIN THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG WING-SHUN, M.H., J.P. THE HONOURABLE TONY TSE WAI-CHUEN, B.B.S. THE HONOURABLE CHAN HOI-YAN 1260 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 7 November 2019 MEMBERS ABSENT: THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE STARRY LEE WAI-KING, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-KIN, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL TIEN PUK-SUN, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALICE MAK MEI-KUEN, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE KWOK WAI-KEUNG, J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE FERNANDO CHEUNG CHIU-HUNG DR THE HONOURABLE HELENA WONG PIK-WAN THE HONOURABLE CHUNG KWOK-PAN THE HONOURABLE CHU HOI-DICK THE HONOURABLE JUNIUS HO KWAN-YIU, J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAM CHEUK-TING THE HONOURABLE HUI CHI-FUNG THE HONOURABLE LAU KWOK-FAN, M.H. THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LAU IP-KEUNG, B.B.S., M.H., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE CHENG CHUNG-TAI THE HONOURABLE KWONG CHUN-YU LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 7 November 2019 1261 PUBLIC OFFICER ATTENDING: THE HONOURABLE MATTHEW CHEUNG KIN-CHUNG, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P. CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE: MS ANITA SIT, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL MISS FLORA TAI YIN-PING, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL MS DORA WAI, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL MR MATTHEW LOO, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL 1262 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 7 November 2019 GOVERNMENT BILLS Second Reading of Government Bills Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Government Bill PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Good morning, Council will now continue the Second Reading debate of the Judicial Officers (Extension of Retirement Age) (Amendment) Bill 2019. Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, please speak. JUDICIAL OFFICERS (EXTENSION OF RETIREMENT AGE) (AMENDMENT) BILL 2019 Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 20 March 2019 IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, according to the prevailing system, the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal Ordinance (Cap. 484), the High Court Ordinance (Cap. 4), the District Court Ordinance (Cap. 336) and the Pension Benefits (Judicial Officers) Ordinance (Cap. 401), the statutory retirement ages of relevant Judges and Judicial Officers ("JJOs") are clearly provided. Meanwhile, the Judicial Officers Recommendation Commission ("JORC"), which is set up under the Judicial Officers Recommendation Commission Ordinance (Cap. 92), makes recommendations to the Chief Executive on judicial appointments. According to the policy of JORC, extension of the term of judicial office beyond the statutory normal retirement age should not be automatic. It should be regarded as exceptional. In respect of the statutory retirement ages for JJOs, the Judiciary commenced a review in 2014 and engaged a consultant to carry out a questionnaire survey on this matter in 2016. Then, in December 2017, it made a number of proposals in relation to extending the statutory retirement ages for JJOs ("the Judiciary's Proposals") to the Government. The Administration considered that the proposals would enable the Judiciary to sustain their manpower across different levels of court, which was important to the efficient and effective operation of the Judiciary. At the meeting of the Panel on LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 7 November 2019 1263 Administration of Justice and Legal Services ("the Panel") on 18 July 2018, the Administration consulted members of the Panel on the Judiciary's Proposals. As a member of the Panel, I also attended the said meeting. Members of the Panel generally supported the proposals. Against the above background, the authorities introduced the Judicial Officers (Extension of Retirement Age) (Amendment) Bill 2019 ("the Bill") into the Legislative Council on 20 March this year. The Bill seeks to amend Cap. 4, Cap. 336, Cap. 401 and Cap. 484 to provide for the extension of retirement ages, extension of terms of office for certain JJOs, to introduce a discretionary early retirement age for certain judges and an early retirement age for certain Judicial Officers, and to provide for transitional and related matters. Subsequently, the Legislative Council formed a bills committee to scrutinize the Bill. Although I did not join the Bills Committee, I notice that the Bills Committee has stated in its report submitted to the House Committee on 14 June that it supported the resumption of the Second Reading debate on the Bill at the Legislative Council meeting, and both the Bills Committee and the Administration would not propose any amendment. It can thus been seen that there is not any substantial controversy to the Bill in the community. President, perhaps we should further ask whether the Bill is proposed owing to certain actual needs. According to the Report on Judicial Remuneration Review 2018, retirement is the main source of wastage amongst JJOs, while the retirement situation may also pose challenges to the judicial manpower. For instance, the anticipated retirement will increase to 14 (or 8.5% of current strength) in 2019-2020. Moreover, as requested by the Bills Committee, the Judiciary Administration has provided two sets of information. As at 31 March this year, the information on the establishment and strength of JJOs at various levels of courts indicates that there are 62 vacancies out of a total of 218 posts; meanwhile, 32 JJOs will reach their statutory retirement ages between 2019 and 2022. Therefore, members of the Bills Committee generally agreed that extending the statutory retirement ages would help alleviate the shortage of judicial manpower. President, next we should briefly examine whether some major proposals of the Bill are reasonable or not. We note that, in respect of the statutory retirement ages of JJOs, the two-tier retirement age system will be retained under the Bill. According to the authorities' explanation, given the small pool of 1264 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 7 November 2019 suitable candidates for appointment as Judges at the Court of First Instance ("CFI") level and above and the persistent difficulties in recruiting CFI Judges, the relevant statutory retirement age will be set higher, i.e. from 65 to 70, to hopefully help retain experienced senior judges and attract experienced and quality private legal practitioners to join the Judiciary. Meanwhile, no persistent recruitment difficulties have been observed for JJOs below the CFI level, thus a lower retirement age of 65 will be set for them. This can not only avoid creating promotion blockages for junior JJOs, but also attract new blood to the judicial service. In my opinion, it is pragmatic to avoid the across-the-board approach and apply different treatments to deal with the appointment of JJOs at different levels. Regarding early retirement ages, if the retirement age for Judges at the CFI level and above is extended as proposed in the Bill, and yet if such Judges are still be able to retire at the existing statutory early retirement age of 60, it will give rise to a new problem, that is, they may retire any time within a long period of 10 years between the ages of 60 and 70, which will likely cause great difficulties in the Judiciary's manpower planning and deployment. Given that Hong Kong a small jurisdiction with a limited number of relevant JJOs, the Government accepts this argument and considers it reasonable to maintain the existing five-year interval between the early retirement age and the statutory retirement age.