House of Commons Political and Constitutional Reform Committee Prospects for codifying the relationship between central and local government Third Report of Session 2012–13 Volume II Volume II: Oral evidence Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 18 and 25 November, 2, 9 and 16 December 2010 and 20 January 2011 in the previous Session of Parliament HC 656-II [incorporating HC 592-i-vi, Session 2010-12] Published on 29 January 2013 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £13.00 The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to consider political and constitutional reform. Current membership Mr Graham Allen MP (Labour, Nottingham North) (Chair) Mr Christopher Chope MP (Conservative, Christchurch) Paul Flynn MP (Labour, Newport West) Sheila Gilmore MP (Labour, Edinburgh East) Andrew Griffiths MP (Conservative, Burton) Fabian Hamilton MP (Labour, Leeds North East) Simon Hart MP (Conservative, Camarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) Tristram Hunt MP (Labour, Stoke on Trent Central) Mrs Eleanor Laing MP (Conservative, Epping Forest) Mr Andrew Turner MP (Conservative, Isle of Wight) Stephen Williams MP (Liberal Democrat, Bristol West) Powers The Committee’s powers are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in Temporary Standing Order (Political and Constitutional Reform Committee). These are available on the Internet via http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmstords.htm. Publication The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the internet at www.parliament.uk/pcrc. A list of Reports of the Committee in the present Parliament is at the back of this volume. The Reports of the Committee, the formal minutes relating to that report, oral evidence taken and some or all written evidence are available in a printed volume. Additional written evidence may be published on the internet only. Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Joanna Dodd (Clerk), Hannah Stewart, Helen Kinghorn (Legal Specialists), Lorna Horton (Committee Specialist), Louise Glen (Senior Committee Assistant), Jim Lawford, (Committee Assistant) and Jessica Bridges-Palmer (Media Officer). Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 6287; the Committee’s email address is [email protected]. Witnesses Thursday 18 November 2010 Page Roger Gough, Councillor, Kent County Council Ev 1 Professor George Jones OBE, Emeritus Professor of Government, London School of Economics and Professor John Stewart, Emeritus Professor of Local Government and Administration, University of Birmingham Ev 9 Thursday 25 November 2010 Professor Tony Travers, Department of Government, London School of Economics and Sir Simon Jenkins, journalist and author Ev 18 Thursday 2 December 2010 Sir Merrick Cockell, Leader, Kensington and Chelsea Council, Jules Pipe, Mayor of Hackney and Chair, London Councils, Lord Bichard and Baroness Eaton, Chairman, Local Government Association Ev 36 Thursday 9 December 2010 Sir Howard Bernstein, Chief Executive, Manchester City Council, Andrea Hill, Chief Executive, Suffolk County Council and Stephen Hughes, Chief Executive, Birmingham City Council Ev 52 Thursday 16 December 2010 Dr Bill Moyes, Institute for Government and Jessica Crowe, Centre for Public Scrutiny Ev 68 Simon Parker, New Local Government Network, Jessica Crowe, Centre for Public Scrutiny and Sir Simon Milton, Greater London Authority Ev 73 Thursday 20 January 2011 Mr Clive Betts MP, Chair, Community and Local Government Committee Ev 85 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SO] Processed: [24-01-2013 11:37] Job: 008752 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/008752/008752_o001_mark_Corrected ev1 18-11.xml Political and Constitutional Reform Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence Taken before the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee on Thursday 18 November 2010 Members present: Mr Graham Allen, in the Chair Mr Christopher Chope Tristram Hunt Sheila Gilmore Mrs Eleanor Laing Mr Fabian Hamilton Sir Peter Soulsby Simon Hart Mr Andrew Turner ________________ Examination of Witness Witness: Mr Roger Gough, Councillor, Kent County Council and Localis, gave evidence. Q1 Chair: How are you, Roger? I don’t think you can transpose any one model across. Mr Gough: I am well, Chairman. I think it’s more a matter of trying to get a sense of Chair: Good to see you. how things come together in particular systems and Mr Gough: Thank you very much. then thinking about how that might work within ours. Chair: You’re among friends. We’re trying to fact- But the whole range of things one is thinking about— find, and we’d like to pick your brains, particularly on the constitutional position, the seat at the table and the international aspects of local government/central any interaction with a number of other points like government relations. I’ve carefully read your paper, finance, performance management systems, the presence at the centre in the localities and so on—I which is extremely helpful. Thank you so much for think in a way you have to look at all those, to some that. I know lots of colleagues have questions for you. extent, as a whole. I’ll leave it at that, Chairman. Would you like to begin by telling us an outline of Chair: Roger, that’s very helpful. Simon, if you can your views over a couple of minutes or do you want start us off? to plunge straight into questions? We’re happy with either. Q2 Simon Hart: A quick question. The fact that Mr Gough: Maybe just a couple of very brief we’re having this discussion at all I suppose is an observations, Chairman. implied recognition that codification is necessary. I Chair: Please do. suppose I’m starting from the position of asking Mr Gough: In the paper, most of which was written whether it is necessary. Do you think it is necessary the best part of two years ago, one of the things that and are there any alternatives to the sort of models emerged from that—and, again, I’m probably not that we’re talking about? In the same breath, I just saying anything that’s not already in there—was simply raise a question about how this works in the there’s no absolute localist arcadia if you look round context of devolved Parliaments, too—particularly, in certainly the countries that were in our peer group. my instance, the Welsh Assembly—and whether you Many of the problems that we would see from the had views on that? point of view of local government in this country are Mr Gough: Whether it’s necessary is something one found in other places. So some people have had could argue because it’s almost a question of what reorganisations forced on them; some people have had you’re trying to achieve. I think certainly if you want financial burdens dumped on them; some people have to move away from the kind of imbalance that we’ve experienced the equivalent of rate capping and so on. seen over a long, long time, you do need to make the But the combination of factors that you get in this relationship between centre and locality more equal, country is, I think, unusual. and you need some way of doing that. Now, I think Certainly in terms of the discussion that I imagine you your colleagues on the Communities and Local Government (CLG) Committee, go back to last year want to have today, I think what, to me, was important and the last chapter in their Report was very much in thinking about it was looking at the picture as a about the role of Parliament in doing that. whole. So the constitutional element was certainly I think if you’re trying to think of ways in which you important. I think probably the biggest single element could make some sort of greater formality—whether was local government having some sort of place at the one calls it codification is an interesting question, table that is linked to that, but not necessarily given that we’re not necessarily talking here about the identically the same. So I think during the days of the wider issue of a written constitution or whatever— last Administration, I probably would have referred to then the role of Parliament becomes very important. it as a respect agenda. I think now the phrase is “no One of the various things that we talked about in the decision about me without me”. But, either way, it’s summary at the end of that report was very much that that sort of thing that you would seek to apply and it was a matter for looking at maybe some sort of joint there are a number of examples in there as to how that committee; looking at the balance, looking at works elsewhere. measures that might affect the balance, and giving cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [24-01-2013 11:37] Job: 008752 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/008752/008752_o001_mark_Corrected ev1 18-11.xml Ev 2 Political and Constitutional Reform Committee: Evidence 18 November 2010 Mr Roger Gough local government not a vote but a voice on that. There again, it’s not something which I particularly explored were some analogies you could draw from overseas in the report. for that. So, to me, that kind of thing, giving the place So I think you can’t quite do that. What you can do at the table, is probably the most important element. is, if you like, throw quite a lot of sand in the machine.