Int. J. Dev. Biol. 44: 85-91 (2000) EGF, epithelium and Interview with Lewis Wolpert 85 From engineering to positional information to public understanding An interview with Lewis Wolpert JAMES C. SMITH* Division of Developmental Biology, National Institute for Medical Research, The Ridgeway, London, United Kingdom Lewis Wolpert is one of the most influential developmental and, most recently, on depression (Malignant Sadness). He is one biologists in Britain and the world. His concept of positional of the few Fellows of the Royal Society who is also a Fellow of the information, developed 30 years ago, changed the way we think Royal Society of Literature, and in addition he has been awarded about pattern formation in the embryo and allowed new genera- the CBE1. tions of molecular developmental biologists to frame their ques- As is well known, Wolpert began his career as an engineer. I was tions in a way that would give sensible answers. One measure of interested to know what got him interested in biology, where the the success of the concept, as we discuss briefly below, is that the idea of positional information came from, and what he thinks about original paper, published in 1969, is now hardly ever cited. Its the Public Understanding of Science. influence, however, clearly pervades current attempts to under- stand the generation of spatial pattern in systems as diverse as Part of I want to do today is take you through your life to insect imaginal disks, amphibian gastrulae and vertebrate limbs. discover how you became a developmental biologist and what Positional information as an idea would have succeeded on its influenced your ideas. own, but its acceptance by the community of developmental biologists (after a brief hiccup –see below!) has been accelerated I’ve always wanted to interview myself! by Wolpert’s clear writing and brilliant lectures: he is a charismatic speaker and performer. These qualities have resulted in invita- You came here from South Africa where you were a civil tions to give lectures, to present television and radio programmes engineer who specialised in soil mechanics. What got you into and to give the Royal Institution Christmas Lectures. His inter- engineering? You don’t fit the usual stereotype of the engi- views with scientists have been published in two volumes, and he neer! has also written books on developmental biology (one textbook and one popular account), on The Unnatural Nature of Science I was good at maths at school and I was good at science; those were my best subjects. I wasn’t bad at the others but maths and 1CBE, Comander of the British Empire science were easy and I liked them. I made model aeroplanes, I *Address for reprints: Division of Developmental Biology, National Institute for Medical Research, The Ridgeway, Mill Hill, London NW7 1AA, United Kingdom. FAX: 44 020 8913 8584. e-mail: [email protected] 0214-6282/2000/$20.00 © UBC Press Printed in Spain www.ehu.es/ijdb 86 J.C. Smith had a chemistry set and an electric train, I made radios that didn’t sciences for some reason and I thought I would do medicine, but work…I remember I was very jealous of my cousin, who although my family said they wouldn’t give me any money. a year younger, understood electricity before me (I think he was about 9). When I had to decide what to do at University I didn’t want What was that reason? to go into medicine, and in those days if you were from a bourgeois Jewish culture you didn’t go and do science –in fact, I never met It’s very hard to describe. It’s a terrible thing to say but I didn’t want to anyone who did science. I chose engineering, but civil engineering spend the rest of my life with engineers. Also, although the problems were because it seemed less greasy than mechanical. interesting technical ones I didn’t really care about the answers. So I first From the moment I got there I regretted it! My friends were doing came to see the Professor of Physiology here at University College. He arts, the girls were very pretty and it seemed so much more fun than was very encouraging and I was terribly excited –I came off the streets what I was doing. At one stage I thought of becoming a mathema- and the Professor of Physiology, here at University College, spent tician, but I wasn’t really good enough. When I finally finished half an hour with me, even though he had no idea who I was. To see engineering, I didn’t know quite what to do, but I got an offer to be the professor in South Africa you’d have to get an appointment six the assistant to the Director of the National Building Research months in advance! But then the real crucial thing is that my friend Institute in Pretoria. He was interested in soil mechanics and that Wilfred Stein was getting married. He was a very close friend, and a is how I got interested in it. I was in Pretoria for two years –this was chemist in those days, and he was coming to London to do a PhD with 1951/1952– and had a wonderful time. Danielli. Wilfred came from Durban but was getting married in Cape Town, and they said: "get out of the house we have a few things to So at that time you were never interested in biology? do". So he went to the Cape Town public library and was glancing through journals and came across an article by Swann and Mitchison I had lots of friends in medicine and I used to go to seminars on where they were looking at the mechanical properties of the cell genetics and the philosophy of science, but I knew nothing about membrane. He immediately wrote a letter to me saying," Lewis ‘(he biology whatsoever. But you know, by the time I was in Pretoria I knew that I wanted to get out of engineering),’ I’ve found what you was already thinking of how to get out of engineering –I really didn’t should do: mechanical properties of the cell membrane. Why don’t want to spend my time as an engineer. So I thought of going to you go and speak to Danielli at King's?" Israel, which to my family was much more acceptable than what I I went to Danielli, who was very excited and said “we would be wanted to do, which was to go to England. I also thought that maybe delighted to have you”. The Nuffield Foundation in those days was I could do something useful with my engineering –but I was already offering people the chance to change from the physical to the thinking “how can I get out of it?” biological sciences, whether you were in mathematics, chemistry or physics. I remember when I went to Danielli the first time he said: Why England? “maybe you should meet Bernall”. J.D. Bernall, the great physicist who was interested in clays and the origin of life, spent a whole I had been on a student tour of Europe in 1950, which was wild morning with me, I did not understand one single word, but Danielli and magical and I wanted to come back to London –I thought it was said that he would take me, and Nuffield gave me a scholarship. Life terrific, even in the winter. I also wanted to get away from the changed, but I went on drinking in Soho! politics. I was quite involved in politics in South Africa –I knew Mandela, I was involved in the left– but I didn’t like politics, I wasn’t Now you were at King’s doing a PhD on the mechanics of cell good at it, I didn’t like selling left-wing newspapers. What I wanted division... to do was come to Europe and get away from my family. In Johannesburg my family lived in a sort of bourgeois environment It took me quite a long time, because I had to do my undergraduate and it was difficult for me to go anywhere –let me put it this way: I work –I don’t think I got my PhD until 1960, ‘61. You know, quite a long couldn’t have taken a flat in Johannesburg because my family time. would say, why aren’t you living at home? Did you publish much? So you went to Israel as an engineer, but in the back of your mind, you’re going to London. No, the first paper I published was wrong. I said that ATP blocked cell cleavage, but it was an artefact, because I hadn’t corrected the Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes. Israel was the only place I experienced pH. I just didn’t know, I’d used pH paper to correct the pH and with anti-Semitism. In Pretoria I worked for a government organisation seawater it doesn’t work –you have to use a pH meter. where I was the only Jew –absolutely no problems. In Israel I After my PhD I got a lectureship almost at once, Assistant worked in an organisation run by Bulgarian Jews and they perse- Lectureship. cuted me. I was very angry with them –I left after a year, I didn’t stay long. What happened was that I got a bursary to do a diploma at By this time you’re thinking about sea urchins, is that right? Imperial College in Soil Mechanics.