Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No.24B- 9 a.m., Friday, April26, 1996 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name Constituency I!aJ:t)' ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charles wood P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. P.C. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River 1335 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, April26, 1996 The House met at 9 a.m. my sense that overwhelming arguments were being made against amalgamation on a forced basis. There were ORDERS OF THE DAY certainly-and I included these in my remarks, the Deputy (Continued) Premier (Mr. Downey) should be aware of-there are certainly areas, and I specified them, where there were COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY concerns or a desire to amalgamate. There were areas (Concurrent Sections) where they thought they might be involved in pilot projectsand I believe the Minister oflndustry, Trade and EDUCATION AND TRAINING Tourism's own riding is one of those areas that suggested it might be involved in pilot projects, but the rural Mr. D•�puty Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, municipalities and the school trustees themselves, in the please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to majority of areas, expressed themselves as opposed to the order. �:he committee will be resuming consideration of kind of forced amalgamation that is being suggested in the Esrimates of the Department of Education and the Norrie commission. Training. As I have said a few times, we are still on 1. (b) (1) on page 34. Shall the item pass? I would say on many of the issues the old Scottish verdict of not proven is really what people would argue. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, I am It is not proven to them that savings can be made and I delightt:d to see the- was able under freedom of information to get two of the reports of the government that they commissioned for this Mr. Dtputy Chairperson: Before we get started, the and one of them based on rural Manitoba by Dr. Rounds minister had been answering a question, and I was is very clear that in fact there are not the cost savings wondering if the minister would like to finish it. there that the government had perhaps anticipated. Hon . .James Downey (Deputy Premier): Most Secondly, I think it is not proven that there are certain!\·. educational advantages. I do not think Mr. Norrie made the case adequately for anybody in rural Manitoba, Ms. Friesen: I wanted to thank you for last time for including those who are already ready to amalgamate, being flexible on that time and that seemed to me very where the educational improvements are to be made. appropriate. I am delighted to welcome the fifth Minister Where are the opportunities for improvement of of Education that we have seen in this department, professional development? Where are the improvements particularly glad since I was at the end of last time that are possible as a result of this supposed larger tax talking about rural Manitoba and reading into the record base? my summaries-and certainly they were selected summaries-of the responses in rural Manitoba to the I thinkevery division said, you have not shown us how Boundaries Commission. I know that the cabinet is this is going to make a difference in the classroom, and I aware of these responses, but I was not convinced that know that is the minister's concern. I assume it is the rural Manitoba had heard their voices back, that they had concern generally of the government, and it is also our not had, it seemed to me, a response to their concerns concern. I think the government has a much bigger case about the kind of maps and thekind of proposals that Mr. to make for those changes and improvements in the Norrie was drawing. classroom. There were many meetings, many discussions, the The minister spoke in her response of pilot projects whole sort of panoply of democracy in rural that could be started. The member for Crescentwood Manitoba-very, very active-which took the time to (Mr. Sale) has talked of best practices and how the respond to the map that Mr.Norrie proposed, and it was government in fact should be the lighthouse for best 1336 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April26, 1996 practices. Other submissions to the Boundaries people, that are going to be the wind rather than the sun, Commission talked about choice. They talked about and which are going to bring about change on the wrong transport problems, wondered how, in fact, the actual principles and which will force, as they said in many changing of boundaries was going to make a difference. submissions, rural Manitobans to choose between community and school. One of the things that I noted of interest, and it is a theme that runs right through the submissions to the Those, I think, are my concerns that arise from the second Norrie commission, is the issue of amalgamating, presentations that I read. or at least-justifYing, I guess would be the word-justifYing municipal boundaries with educational Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Before we go to the Minister boundaries in rural Manitoba. That was one of the of Education, I would like to recognize the honourable principles that Norrie said he was going to abide by, and Deputy Premier, who is kind enough to sit in for a few he continued in that in his second or final re:port. Many, minutes. many school divisions said this is not the way to go, that * (0910) is not the right principle, so I am drawing it to the minister's attention as a particular principle There were Mr. Downey: Just a brief comment, and I know how many, many school divisions and rural municipalities that disappointed the opposition members are that they cannot said, our community of interest, our community of chew me up in this, butI will tell you the minister who is transport, our social communities, our trading there now is very capable and will carry out the communities are not the municipal boundaries anymore, responsibilities. ifindeed they ever were in parts of rural Manitoba. So I thinkfor Norrie to continue, or the minister to accept that I would make one comment. if the minister would principle in Norrie, I think is one that would be going permit at this time, as it relates to the boundary review. against the grain of the changes that rural Manitoba I acknowledge what the opposition member has said, but would want to see. So I draw that to her attention as an I do want to compliment our Minister of Education whom underlying issue. I believe has been verv sensitive to the comments that have been coming back, particularly from rural Manitoba I think the whole issue as well of forced change is one and the whole issue of boundary review, that there has that people addressed in that second rourtd. I do not not been an aggressive-saying this is absolute, and has know, the minister may be familiar with I think it was moved without being sensitive to all the discussion and Prime Minister Laurier in the Laurier-Greenway particularly some of that that has been put on the record. compromise. He talked about his sunny ways and he had We are aware of the Rounds report. So I just wanted to a little childhood story about the difference: between the put that on the record, that I believe our Minister of power of the sun and the power of the wind, and it is the Education (Mrs.