DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COMHCHOISTE UM AN OCHTÚ LEASÚ AR AN MBUNREACHT JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE EIGHTH AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITU- TION Dé Céadaoin, 8 Samhain 2017 Wednesday, 8 November 2017 Tháinig an Comhchoiste le chéile ag 1.30 p.m. The Joint Committee met at 1.30 p.m. Comhaltaí a bhí i láthair / Members present: Teachtaí Dála / Deputies Seanadóirí / Senators James Browne, Jerry Buttimer, Lisa Chambers, Paul Gavan, Clare Daly, Rónán Mullen, Bernard J. Durkan, Ned O’Sullivan, Peter Fitzpatrick, Lynn Ruane. Billy Kelleher, Mattie McGrath, Catherine Murphy, Hildegarde Naughton, Jonathan O’Brien, Kate O’Connell, Louise O’Reilly, Jan O’Sullivan, Anne Rabbitte, Bríd Smith. Seanadóir / Senator Catherine Noone sa Chathaoir / in the Chair. 1 JEAC Business of Joint Committee Chairman: I would like to welcome Deputy Bríd Smith as a new member of the committee. She replaces her party colleague Deputy Ruth Coppinger. I would like to acknowledge Deputy Coppinger’s work on the committee and thank her for her attendance here. She was a very at- tentive member. Welcome, Deputy Smith, and I look forward to working together. Deputy Bríd Smith: I thank the Chairman. Chairman: We have received no apologies. The draft minutes for our meeting of 25 Oc- tober have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed. There are no matters arising. We have received 12 items of correspondence, all of which are noted and some require follow-up from the committee. We will return to the correspondence from the Department of Education and Skills in module 3. Sorry, can we just have the one meeting here everybody, please. On the letter from Renua, the committee has already decided to hear expert opinion rather than advocacy groups. Renua is a registered political party so I do not propose to invite it. Is that agreed? Deputy Louise O’Reilly: Agreed. Chairman: Agreed. Deputy Mattie McGrath: On what grounds has the Chair made that decision? Chairman: It is a political party as opposed to a group of expert witnesses. We applied that logic to all of the committee decisions. However, if the committee decides otherwise, there is always room for an exception. Deputy Mattie McGrath: Did the Chairman mention advocacy groups? Chairman: We decided at the beginning of our meetings that we would invite advocacy groups only in exceptional circumstances. We did hear from a few. Is there still something unclear? Deputy Mattie McGrath: No. There is but point noted. Chairman: That is fine. I thank the Deputy. Deputy Catherine Murphy: I do not know what is being noted. There is a myriad of par- ties. If we are going to have political parties we are going to have all-comers. Chairman: That is fine. I would like to say----- Deputy Mattie McGrath: For my own information, what I am noting is that I do not ex- pect advocacy groups, that is, those having no involvement with political parties, to be here. Chairman: I am not hearing the Deputy fully. Deputy Mattie McGrath: What is the issue? I raised a question about advocacy groups. Advocacy was mentioned. Chairman: What I may have said is that we decided at the outset that we would have ex- perts and, in limited circumstances, advocacy groups. I do not believe that Renua falls into 2 8 Novenber 2017 either of those categories. Unless it is an issue I will move on. I thank the Deputy. I want to note that the committee on the Future of Mental Health Care is meeting today, which is not satisfactory because this committee is a short-term committee and a clash between those is not ideal. I note that two members, Deputy Browne and Deputy Rabbitte, will have to attend. Hopefully, they can return when it is over but that is completely understood. The clerk will speak to the powers that be about that not happening in future, especially with a committee that tends to change its meeting times. They should avoid this time of the week. There is a letter from Dr. McCaffrey and from Both Lives Matter. They will be published on our website. On the issue of witnesses generally, I want to reiterate the position of the committee. I have said this a number of times but I wish to do so again today. We agreed last July to hear from experts. In that regard we decided to look at the availability of witnesses who attended the Citizens’ Assembly and also that members would suggest individual experts or groups that they wish to hear from here. I have asked that we hear all opinion and I have written to mem- bers asking for suggestions so as to strike a balance. In the past week I have asked the clerk to make formal approaches to groups but the response has been along the lines of that contained in Dr. McCaffrey’s letter and from the letter from Both Lives Matter. Their response is that it is not worthwhile for those who advocate retention of the eighth amendment to come before the committee given the decision of the committee not to retain Article 40.3.3o of the Constitution in full. Also, sorry I am not----- Senator Rónán Mullen: I would like to indicate interest and I would like to make a com- ment when the Chairman is ready. Chairman: If the Senator will allow me to finish and indicate then. Senator Rónán Mullen: The Chairman did not see me. Does the Chairman want me to pass up a note? Chairman: I thank the Senator. It has also been suggested that we have agreed that the eighth amendment should be re- pealed. That decision has not been made. We need to be very clear about the fact that the only decision that this committee has made is that Article 40.3.3o of the Constitution will not be re- tained in full. I do not accept that argument. For the purpose of our deliberations it is a pity that we have not heard legal and medical argument that would be different to what we have heard to date. That said, members have learned a huge amount from our interaction with witnesses and we will continue to do our work with a view to reporting to the Oireachtas by 20 December. The opportunity is still there to suggest particular witnesses to come before us but there is a struggle in getting certain sides of the argument to attend. That is regrettable. Senator Rónán Mullen: I thank the Chairman. We appear to lack a procedure to allow an intervention at a relevant point because I merely sought and wish to know and request that the Chairman would read the letters into the record, the letters from Dr. McCaffrey and the letter from Both Lives Matter. I think it is as relevant to the work of this committee that people who were invited give their particular reason. The Chairman has given her own personal opinion as to whether a vote to recommend that the eighth amendment not be retained in full constitutes a decision in the matter and only by the most tortured twist of logic could one say that it is not a clear expression of intent from the committee. Given that is the Chairman’s particular point, 3 JEAC I think it is appropriate that she would read into the record, as she did with other letters from invited guests in the past, the explanations from Dr McCaffrey and Both Lives Matter. Chairman: Before I turn to Deputy Durkan and Deputy McGrath, I think the distinction needs to be drawn between a witness who attends here and subsequently sends correspondence and somebody who has not attended. This exact procedure was adopted in the case of Professor Patricia Casey. Deputy McGrath wished for her letter to be read into the record. I did not read it into the record because she did not attend here. We could be reading letters into the record for expects for hours here in the committee but really they were invited to attend and should attend and I think that it proves that they should be here. Senator Rónán Mullen: So may I clarify----- Chairman: We will publish it on the website. Senator Rónán Mullen: May I clarify that first, I think it is a matter for any invited guest to determine whether they should attend. The Chairman is now criticising their decision in their absence. That seems to me----- Chairman: I am not. I was just saying that----- Senator Rónán Mullen: The Chairman clearly is, if she is saying that they should attend. It seems to me that----- Chairman: Can we have some order in the room please. Senator Rónán Mullen: It seems to me all the more reason why one should read their view into the record. May I ask the Chairman about the decision regarding what may be read into the record and what may not? Please assist me. Is this laid out somewhere in procedures? Or is this the Chairman making a decision on the fly? Chairman: No. It is a decision we made in the last number of weeks when certain letters were being sent into the committee. We receive a lot of correspondence. If we were to read all of that correspondence into the record I would spend a lot of my time in the Chair reading letters from----- Senator Rónán Mullen: I think what is different here, Chairman, is that it goes to the credibility of the committee. The committee did, in my view, impugn its own credibility. The Chairman herself was interviewed on RTÉ about this.