Committee on the Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints Wednesday 3 March 2021 Session 5 © Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Information on the Scottish Parliament’s copyright policy can be found on the website - www.parliament.scot or by contacting Public Information on 0131 348 5000 Wednesday 3 March 2021 CONTENTS Col. DECISION ON TAKING BUSINESS IN PRIVATE ................................................................................................... 1 SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT HANDLING OF HARASSMENT COMPLAINTS ................................................................. 2 COMMITTEE ON THE SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT HANDLING OF HARASSMENT COMPLAINTS 15th Meeting 2021, Session 5 CONVENER *Linda Fabiani (East Kilbride) (SNP) DEPUTY CONVENER *Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Dr Alasdair Allan (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) *Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) *Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) *Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green) *Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) *Maureen Watt (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Nicola Sturgeon (The First Minister) Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Ind) LOCATION The Robert Burns Room (CR1) 1 3 MARCH 2021 2 Scottish Parliament Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints Committee on the Scottish The Convener: Agenda item 2 is our main Government Handling of public business today. It is an evidence session on Harassment Complaints the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints, in which we will hear from the First Wednesday 3 March 2021 Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon MSP. At the outset, I note for members, the First [The Convener opened the meeting at 09:00] Minister and all those who are watching this evidence session at home, that due to the Decision on Taking Business in necessary mitigations that are in place to allow us Private to meet in person today, we will suspend the meeting periodically to allow for the room to be ventilated and cleaned. Our first suspension will The Convener (Linda Fabiani): Good morning, be at around 11 am. everyone, and welcome to the 15th meeting in 2021 of the Committee on the Scottish I also note for those who are watching that Government Handling of Harassment Complaints. every effort has been made to make this in-person evidence session as safe as possible for all Agenda item 1 is to decide whether involved, including through social distancing consideration of the committee’s draft report around the table and in the committee room. I should be taken in private at future meetings. remind members of the committee and media Does the committee agree? representatives to continue to observe social Members indicated agreement. distancing when entering and leaving the committee room. As I have said at the outset of every meeting, I remind all those present and watching that we are bound by the terms of our remit and the relevant court orders, including the need to avoid contempt of court by identifying certain individuals, including through jigsaw identification. The committee as a whole has agreed that it is not our role to revisit events that were a focus of the trial, which could be seen to constitute a rerun of the criminal trial. Our remit is clear, and it is: “To consider and report on the actions of the First Minister, Scottish Government officials and special advisers in dealing with complaints about Alex Salmond, former First Minister, considered under the Scottish Government’s “Handling of harassment complaints involving current or former ministers” procedure and actions in relation to the Scottish Ministerial Code.” The more we get into specifics of evidence— that is, time, people and cases—the more we run the risk of identifying those who made complaints. The more we ask about specific matters that were covered in the trial, including events that were explored in the trial, the more we run the risk of rerunning the trial. In questions, reference to specific dates and individuals should be avoided and questions should be phrased in general terms, where possible, to avoid the risk of jigsaw identification of complainants. In addition, please do not refer to civil servants by name unless it is absolutely necessary, and do not refer to civil servants by name if they are below senior civil service level. I emphasise that the committee would be content to receive written 3 3 MARCH 2021 4 supplementary points, should any witness to the who were not party to those discussions are inquiry have concerns that their response might seeking to attest to. Mr Hamilton has offered no stray into such territory. commentary on his investigation, and neither will I. Given the number of documents on complaints However, this committee and the public are handling, for ease of reference when asking a entitled to hear from me directly on the matters question please mention the document number, under consideration, so today I will do my best to footnote reference and whether it is in batch 1 or answer every question that is asked of me directly 2. and in as much detail as I can. With that, I welcome the First Minister and invite First, on 8 January 2019, I volunteered to Ms Sturgeon to make the affirmation. Parliament my contact with Alex Salmond. I stated: The First Minister (Nicola Sturgeon) made a solemn affirmation. “On 2 April 2018, he informed me about the complaints against him”.—[Official Report, 8 January 2019; c 61.] The Convener: I invite the First Minister to make an opening statement. I will explain why I stand by that statement. The First Minister (Nicola Sturgeon): Thank Secondly, I will set out why I did not immediately you. The spotlight that was shone on historical record the 2 April meeting within the Scottish workplace harassment in late 2017 was long Government—a decision that was based entirely overdue. It was absolutely right at that time for my on my desire to protect the independence and Government to review its processes, consider any confidentiality of the process. weaknesses and gaps in them and put in place a Thirdly, I will outline why I believe that it was procedure that would allow complaints, including right that I did not intervene in the investigation those of a historical nature, to be investigated. when I became aware of it, even though Alex When complaints were made about Alex Salmond asked me to do so. Salmond, it was also absolutely right that the Finally, although the mistake that was made in Government took them seriously and subjected the conduct of the investigation meant, ultimately, them to investigation. An individual’s profile, status that the action for judicial review could not be or connections should not result in complaints of defended, I will demonstrate that the decisions that nature being ignored or swept under the that were taken at each stage of it were legally carpet. That, in this case, it was a former First sound. Minister does not change that. I am sure that we will return to all those matters The procedure that was adopted in late 2017 in in detail. However, in these opening remarks, I the wake of the #MeToo concerns was drafted by want to focus on the issues around my contact civil servants, largely independent of me. with Alex Salmond on 2 April, and my contact However, I was kept abreast of its development, three days earlier with his former chief of staff. and I did sign it off. As a result of a mistake that Alex has claimed in his testimony to the committee was made—a very serious mistake in the that the meeting in my home on 2 April took place investigation of the complaints against Alex with a shared understanding, on the part of all the Salmond—two women were failed and taxpayers’ participants, of the issues for discussion—in other money was lost. I deeply regret that. Although I words, that he turned up to the meeting believing was not aware of the error at the time, I am the that I already knew everything. It is worth noting, head of the Scottish Government, so I want to take even just in passing, that that, in fact, represents a this opportunity to say that I am sorry to the two change in his position. On 14 January 2019, after women involved and to the wider public. the conclusion of the judicial review, a I also accept without any reservation that my spokesperson issued this comment on his behalf: actions deserve to be scrutinised. Two years ago, “Alex has no certainty as to the state of knowledge of the I volunteered for such scrutiny by referring matters first minister before then,” relating to my contact with Alex Salmond to the by which he meant 2 April. A brief account of what independent adviser on the ministerial code, happened on 2 April suggests that, as per his James Hamilton. Mr Hamilton is conducting an comment in January 2019, he did not assume full independent investigation, and I await his findings. knowledge on my part, in advance. His investigation is not being conducted in public, although his conclusions will, of course, be When he arrived at my house, he was insistent published. As a result of that, he is able to hear that he speak to me entirely privately, away from and consider material that, because of a contempt his former chief of staff Geoff Aberdein and of court order, this committee cannot consider, Duncan Hamilton, who had accompanied him, and including, as I understand it, material from people my chief of staff, who was with me. That would who were actually party to discussions that others have seemed unnecessary, had there already 5 3 MARCH 2021 6 been a shared understanding on the part of all of Not unreasonably at all, some people have us.