Interview with Dr. Roger Revelle May 15-16, 1985 University of California, San Diego 25th Anniversary Oral History Project Interview conducted in Dr. Revelle's office, Warren College campus, UCSD. Interviewer, Dr. Kathryn Ringrose RINGROSE: In his interview, Clark Kerr describes the Scripps Institution as a "little jewel". He's very flattering about it. And it is certainly a graduate level scientific institute of superb quality and worldwide status. When you became acting director of the Scripps Institution in 1950, what were your immediate plans for the development of the educational side of the Institution? REVELLE: The University Directory here half the time calls it the Scripps Institute, and half the time the Scripps Institution. I used to say it was the only institution run by its inmates. Well, we had traditionally had graduate students at the Scripps Institution ever since the early 1920s. Not very many, but in the early days, it was quite a small place. When I came down here in 1931, as a graduate student, I was one of five graduate students, not of very distinguished quality either, for the most part. We had five faculty members, quite a small budget, and a small staff. I think our total budget was something like $100,000 a year. Of course, professors in those days got $3,000 per year. So you could have quite a few professors for $100,000. Of course, you had to have janitors, and engineers, and building superintendents, and grounds people, secretaries - a secretary at least. By 1950 this had changed very much because Harald Sverdrup, who had been director from 1936 to 1948, was a famous and world class oceanographer. He was probably the leading oceanographer of his time. He came from Norway, from the Institute of Geophysics in Bergen. [phone call] RINGROSE: We were talking about your ideas about education as you began your tenure running Scripps. REVELLE: I was saying that during Sverdrup's time, he taught during World War II, he offered a course here for Army and Navy meteorologists on wave forecasting for amphibious operations - for example, wave forecasting for Normandy and for the invasion of Sicily and the various amphibious operations in the Pacific. That brought in some quite good young men who had already taken a course in meteorology for the Army or for the Navy, and some of them stayed on after the war and took a Ph.D. in physical oceanography. From that time on we had many more graduate students, and a much better grade of graduate student, I would say, than we had in 1931 or 1936. RINGROSE: Did you actively go out and look for good graduate students, or did they just come to you in those early days? REVELLE: They just applied. And the reason they applied was this war-time course in wave foreca'5ting. Walter Munk was involved in that, too. Walter can give you the names of some of those early post-war graduate students. Bob Arthur (Robert S. Arthur) was one. He's on this list as a faculty member at Scripps. Chip Cox (Charles S. Cox) was another. He's also here, and Melvin Traynor, Townsend Cromwell, Paul Horrer, Wayne Burt, Don Pritchard I remember, and Dale Leipper. Bob Reed was still another one I remember. And just after that time we enrolled a whole group of very good students: Warren Wooster was one, Art Maxwell was another, Bill van Dorn, and Gifford Ewing. Both Warren and Giff were later on our staff. We hired several of these young men as research oceanographers and some of them became faculty members – both Arthur and Cox became faculty members. Johnny Knauss was still another. In the late 19408 and early 19508 we seemed to sort of specialize in people who later became directors of newly founded or expanded oceanographic institutions, including Knauss, Maxwell, Burt, Leipper and Don Pritchard. Warren Wooster became the head of the Rosenstiel Marine Laboratory of the University of Miami and so forth. So, that seemed to be our specialty - producing directors, not necessarily great scientists, but good organizers and promoters. RINGROSE: But the institute still didn't see its mission as teaching. REVELLE: No, it never did. It was primarily - was and is - primarily a research institution even though it now has 180 graduate students and has very high admission standards. It produces about thirty Ph.D.s a year, a fantastic number of Ph.D.s. In the 1950's we had a few dedicated teachers, including Bob Arthur and Norris Rakestraw. What I noticed about this group of graduate students, the ones who came in during the early 1950s, was that they didn't do very well on their doctoral exams, particularly their qualifying exams. By 1950 we had become part of the Academic Senate at UCLA. When I was a graduate student we were part of the Academic Senate at Berkeley - somehow during the war that changed to UCLA. RINGROSE: The southern section was spun off. REVELLE: The southern section of the Academic Senate. We usually had people like Louis Slichter and Lee Kinsey, and members of the Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics, and Biology Departments from UCLA on these doctoral committees. There were always at least two of them. Our students were clearly very rusty about their basic science and had had no graduate work in basic science. Their graduate courses had all been oceanography courses, and of course the people at UCLA didn't know anything about oceanography, but they knew a lot about physics and chemistry and mathematics. RINGROSE: And they asked questions about what they knew about. I can see how that would happen. REVELLE: I always thought our guys were primarily good as sailors. They were very good seagoing scientists, but not very good physicists. So, I decided that one thing we could do here that would improve the education of our graduate students was to start a graduate school of science and technology. I thought of it as a kind of publicly supported Cal Tech. This idea got a lot of support from the establishment in San Diego, because they had companies like Convair that had lots of young engineers who needed more graduate training and upgrading. RINGROSE: Was it about this time that General Dynamics came to you and made the million dollar gift offer? They did that about 1955, I believe. REVELLE: Yes, it was in 1955. RINGROSE: The first installment on the money carne in 1956. But I'm sure there had been discussion about that.· REVELLE: That was when General Atomics was being started here. General Dynamics was also Convair, of course. Convair was a division of General Dynamics. We had half a dozen high tech - relatively high tech companies: Solar, Rohr, Cubic, Cohn Corporation, General Dynamics with Convair, and Ryan. It was about that time that Freddy deHoffmann showed up with his idea of building an atomic energy research laboratory. RINGROSE: Yes, it was deHoffmann and Bob Biron who generated this offer. REVELLE: Which offer? RINGROSE: The million dollar offer. REVELLE: I see. I didn't know that Bob had much to do with it. John J. Hopkins was the president of General Dynamics. He was a great talker and promoter. One of the new roads here was called John J. Hopkins drive. RINGROSE: So you felt that you had community support for this high level technical institute? REVELLE: We built up a lot of community support for the proposed graduate school of science and engineering. Then we brought a delegation to a Regents meeting. It included O. W. Campbell, the City Manager, the President of the Chamber of Commerce, and the Executive Officer of the Chamber of Commerce - his name was Arnold Klaus - and Pat Hyndman, and Jim Archer. RINGROSE: Jim Archer continued to be very active, isn't that correct? In the development of the campus?' REVELLE: I wouldn't exactly say in the development of the campus. RINGROSE: Well, in the promotion of the campus. REVELLE: He was active in the promotion of it. I had a friend named Rawson Bennett who had been here before the war as a sonar officer for a squadron of destroyers that was testing sonar gear, and it turned out that the range of the sonar was very much affected by oceanographic conditions. So he got in touch with us at Scripps - particularly three of us - Harald Sverdrup, Dick Fleming, and me. We wrote a paper on the refraction of sound in sea water, how it would affect sonar performance. Then later Rawson Bennett became head of the electronics design division of the Bureau of Ships, and he brought me back to Washington. I spent nearly seven years in the Navy wearing a sailor suit. five of those years were in Washington, first in the Bureau of Ships under Rawson Bennett and then in the Office of Naval Research. After the war, Rawson became the director of the Navy Electronics Laboratory here in San Diego, and then he became an Admiral and Chief of Naval Research. So he came out here and gave a talk to the San Diego people about how important the Navy thought it was to have this graduate school of science and engineering here, and how much they would support it. That helped a lot, too. This delegation of prominent San Diegans presented their case at the Regents meeting at about the same time, I guess. I don't remember the exact sequence of events, but Bob Sproul appointed a committee to look into it. RINGROSE: That would be about 1956.