PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES Public Bill Committee PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES BILL Seventh Sitting Tuesday 30 June 2020 (Morning) CONTENTS CLAUSES 6 TO 11 agreed to. SCHEDULE agreed to, with an amendment. Adjourned till this day at Two o’clock. PBC (Bill 127) 2019 - 2021 No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the final version of the report should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons, not later than Saturday 4 July 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 221 Public Bill Committee30 JUNE 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 222 The Committee consisted of the following Members: Chairs: SIR DAVID AMESS,†IAN PAISLEY † Afolami, Bim (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con) † Miller, Mrs Maria (Basingstoke) (Con) † Bailey, Shaun (West Bromwich West) (Con) † Mohindra, Mr Gagan (South West Hertfordshire) † Clarkson, Chris (Heywood and Middleton) (Con) (Con) Efford, Clive (Eltham) (Lab) † Shelbrooke, Alec (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con) † Farris, Laura (Newbury) (Con) † Smith, Cat (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab) † Fletcher, Colleen (Coventry North East) (Lab) † Smith, Chloe (Minister of State, Cabinet Office) † Hughes, Eddie (Walsall North) (Con) † Spellar, John (Warley) (Lab) † Hunt, Jane (Loughborough) (Con) † Lake, Ben (Ceredigion) (PC) Sarah Thatcher, Rob Page, Committee Clerks † Linden, David (Glasgow East) (SNP) † Matheson, Christian (City of Chester) (Lab) † attended the Committee 223 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 224 Shereen Williams of the Boundary Commission for Wales. Public Bill Committee In answer to a question about local ties, Ms Williams mentioned that the commission in Wales looked at Tuesday 30 June 2020 electoral wards and communities that are linked through joint programmes and projects. She went on to say: “Also, quite uniquely, in Wales…is the Welsh language. We (Morning) take it into account that you have constituencies where there are lots of links to the Welsh language. That is something we would like to keep together.”––[Official Report, Parliamentary Constituencies [IAN PAISLEY in the Chair] Public Bill Committee, 18 June 2020; c. 20, Q37.] My concern, in tabling the amendment, was not that Parliamentary Constituencies Bill the Boundary Commission for Wales takes no notice of the Welsh language and the links that communities have 9.25 am in certain parts of Wales—far from it. I know from past The Chair: Good morning. You are all very welcome. experience that the commission has been very receptive, Before we resume consideration of the Bill, I have a few and not just in the way in which it consults communities preliminary points to which I always like to draw hon. on proposed new boundaries; it has also taken into Members’ attention. Of course, the important one is account, in submissions on certain proposals, what the that we must respect social distancing guidance. I will impact of those might be on the Welsh language and intervene to remind everyone if necessary—if we get the community. Rather, my concern is how the Welsh too familiar. I remind Members to switch their electronic language, and indeed the local ties, will be catered for in devices off or to silent mode. Of course, you want to future developments. bring in refreshments. I do allow that, given the detailed I know that later, when considering another part of scrutiny that we are undertaking. I also remind colleagues the Bill, we will discuss the fact that Wales in particular that Hansard would be very grateful if Members emailed stands to lose quite a number of seats, which has their speaking notes to the Hansard team. consequences for the commission’s work in redrawing The selection list for today’s sittings is in front of you. the electoral map of Wales. It may be difficult for the Members may wish to take a copy; it is available in the commission to cater to all the different ties that fall room. It shows how the selected amendments have been under the statutory rule. In response to the next question, grouped for debate. Grouped amendments are generally Ms Williams from the Boundary Commission for Wales the same or similar. Please note that decisions on said that amendments take place not in the order in which they “it will be just as complex as the previous reviews, because we are are debated, but in the order in which they appear on losing quite a lot of seats.”––[Official Report, Parliamentary the amendment paper. The selection and grouping list Constituencies Public Bill Committee, 18 June 2020; c. 20, Q38.] shows the order of debates. Decisions on each amendment She was referring, of course, to the change to 650 as are taken when we come to the clause that the amendment opposed to 600. We also know that demographics and affects. the relatively slower rate of growth in the Welsh population will mean that we will probably stand to lose further Clause 6 seats in subsequent boundary reviews.I am quite concerned about how the commission goes about its work to try to TAKING ACCOUNT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOUNDARIES incorporate all the different local ties, including the Welsh language and linguistic links. Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): I beg to move amendment 1, If Members needed to be convinced any further in clause 6, page 4, line 37, at end insert— about the importance of the Welsh language in Wales, “(2A) In rule 5(1)(d) (list of factors), after “local” insert “and in our afternoon evidence session on 23 June, in response linguistic”.” to a question from the Minister, Dr Larner said: This amendment would enable a Boundary Commission to take into account, if and to the extent that they think fit, the effect of boundary “There is a lot of very well-backed-up evidence in Wales that change on linguistic ties as well as local ties. Welsh speakers, particularly fluent, first language Welsh speakers, It is, as always, a pleasure to serve under your tend to hold slightly different opinions on a whole range of ideas…I would absolutely say that the ability to speak Welsh is a chairmanship, Mr Paisley. It is also a pleasure to kick really important part of some people’s identity.”––[Official Report, off this morning’s proceedings by speaking to my Parliamentary Constituencies Public Bill Committee, 23 June 2020; amendment 1, which hon. Members will have noticed is c. 128, Q245.] designed to probe the Government and provoke a debate I suppose that gets to the nub of the issue that I want to on the nature of local ties, what “local ties” might probe today: how does the “local ties” rule really capture mean, and, particularly with relevance to Wales but not the extent of the different elements that could constitute just to Wales, linguistic ties. I will confine my remarks identity for some of our communities? I appreciate that to the Welsh language, although I acknowledge that identity is not something that we could ever capture there are other languages within the United Kingdom perfectly, as it is very subjective. Rather, I am probing to which some of the points I will make may be just as into whether under the statutory rules we can ensure relevant. As I said, this is a probing amendment that I that the importance and prevalence of linguistic ties, hope will spark some sort of debate. particularly in Wales, are maintained in future reviews. TheamendmentwouldenabletheBoundaryCommission for Wales to take into account, if and to the extent that it thought fit, the effect of boundary change on linguistic Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): With ties, as well as local ties, when considering boundaries. regard to linguistic ties, how does the hon. Gentleman We heard on 18 June, in the first evidence session, from see dialect as being included within that—not so much 225 Public Bill Committee30 JUNE 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 226 the separate languages, but the separate ways and methods Can the Minister say how the Welsh language will be of communication and separate vocabulary, as seen in treated in future reviews, especially when the task of dialects? allocating seats within Wales will be far more complicated? I would be grateful. Diolch, Mr Paisley. Ben Lake: I am grateful to the hon. Member for that point. The debate about dialect is very interesting, and The Chair: Before I call the right hon. Member for could certainly spark quite a bit of interest in Wales. He Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), I remind Members that Tony might be aware that northerners, or gogs as we call them Bellringer submitted a paper late last night. You should in Wales, hold quite proudly that their Welsh is somehow have an electronic copy of that. There are no hard copies, superior to that of us mere mortals in the south. Of but there is an electronic copy. course, I am a west Walian, so I am better than both. However, he makes a good point on the distinction between dialect and language. Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): It is a great For the purposes of linguistic ties in Wales, I think it pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, would be only fair for the Boundary Commission for Mr Paisley, in a much cooler room. Wales to consider the language as a whole. It would be I commend the hon. Member for Ceredigion on his unfair, and perhaps impossible, to draw the commission amendment. He has made an extremely strong case for into adjudicating which dialect is more important.