Transcript The Future of Liberal Democracies: In Conversation with Margot Wallström Margot Wallström Minister for Foreign Affairs (2014-19), Sweden The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (2018-19), UK Chair: Dr Robin Niblett CMG Director and Chief Executive, Chatham House Event date: 15 April 2021 The views expressed in this document are the sole responsibility of the speaker(s) and participants, and do not necessarily reflect the view of Chatham House, its staff, associates or Council. Chatham House is independent and owes no allegiance to any government or to any political body. It does not take institutional positions on policy issues. This document is issued on the understanding that if any extract is used, the author(s)/speaker(s) and Chatham House should be credited, preferably with the date of the publication or details of the event. Where this document refers to or reports statements made by speakers at an event, every effort has been made to provide a fair representation of their views and opinions. The published text of speeches and presentations may differ from delivery. © The Royal Institute of International Affairs, 2021. 10 St James’s Square, London SW1Y 4LE T +44 (0)20 7957 5700 F +44 (0)20 7957 5710 www.chathamhouse.org Patron: Her Majesty The Queen Chair: Jim O’Neill Director: Dr Robin Niblett Charity Registration Number: 208223 2 The Future of Liberal Democracies: In Conversation with Margot Wallström Dr Robin Niblett CMG Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this next in our Chatham House series on The Future of Liberal Democracies. I’m Robin Niblett, Director of Chatham House. I have a very simple job today, which is actually to introduce the series again and say how thrilled we are to be collaborating with Jeremy Hunt MP on this series, an idea that he brought to us and that we’ve been working on collectively now, and will do through the course of the year, to really discuss this huge challenge we face globally, where liberal democracies seem to be at bay in multiple ways at the moment, and to discuss them in particular with former Senior Officials who have had the experience of being on the frontline of trying to ensure that the interests of liberal democracies remain strong and are promoted as such. This is the beginning of Chatham House’s second century, this year, and making sure that liberal democracy remains strong and that they are critical to well-functioning, rules-based international system is one of our big priorities, so I will say again, Jeremy, we’re thrilled to be partnering with you on this project. I will say for those of you not with us at the end of the meeting, that our next meeting will take place on the 4th of May, where William Hague will be interviewing Hillary Clinton, Former US Secretary of State, as well. But for today, it is our very great honour and pleasure to be welcoming Margot Wallström and I know, Jeremy, you will be doing the introduction yourself, but I just want to say on my behalf and my colleagues at Chatham House, how pleased we are, Margot, to have you with us. Really looking forward to your perspectives, as well. Just so Jeremy doesn’t have to do it, a few process things. This meeting is on the record, not under the Chatham House Rule, and you can, therefore, obviously use it in any social media function that you would like. Tweet #CHEvents if you wish and submit, please, your questions through the ‘Q&A’ function. Don’t use the ‘Chat’ function or the raise hand function, which are disabled. Please use the ‘Q&A’ function and we will get to your questions either through Jeremy himself asking them, or if we can bring some of you online, we will as well. So, with that, I’m going to hand over. Jeremy, over to you to manage the meeting. Great, Margot, again to have you with us. Bye-bye. The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt Thank you very much, Robin, and may I say that I’m absolutely delighted to be partnering with Chatham House on this incredibly important issue of The Future of Open Societies and Liberal Democracies. There is nowhere better to be doing it and, indeed, you always put together the most distinguished audiences for these events. Even though we can’t see you in the flesh, but we are particularly thrilled today to welcome Margot Wallström, who was Foreign Minister of Sweden, it has to be said, for rather longer than I was Foreign Secretary in the UK, but we Foreign Ministers meet very regularly and there are some people that you look forward to meeting and others perhaps less so, but because you’re a Diplomat, you don’t always say so. And Margot was always one of the people that I looked forward to meeting, because she is not just very experienced and wise, but also very open and she was not just Foreign Minister, she was Deputy Prime Minister of Sweden, she was the Vice President of the European Commission and she was the first United Nations Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict. So, there are lots and lots of things to talk about this afternoon. Very warm welcome to you, Margot. I’ve got – I want to start with something personal, if I may, and just to ask you how was lockdown? I know you’ve got a log cabin in somewhere very remote in Sweden and I have this vision of you hiding behind the snow, watching episodes of The Bridge, but how has it actually been for you over the last year? 3 The Future of Liberal Democracies: In Conversation with Margot Wallström Margot Wallström Thank you very much, Jeremy, and thank you for that warm welcome, and I’ve been looking forward to this, seeing you again and being able to talk about some very important subjects. Well, lockdown for me has been very much enjoying nature and I have found a lot of comfort in nature, because we live by a lake and we also have our log cabin in the North of Sweden, and it means that we can take long walks. We’ve been able to enjoy the forest and do all of those things, so be outdoors, and that helps your health, as well. But, of course, some Netflix series and books have helped, as well. The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt And are you a fan of The Bridge? Margot Wallström Yes, absolutely, I think I have, as you, seem to have watched all of the episodes of the series and I really like them. They are well done, yeah. The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt Great. Well, message from the UK, we’d love another series, if you’re feeling up to it in Sweden and Denmark. But perhaps that time with nature gives you a chance to think about things and perhaps gives you a chance to escape from issues that you’d rather not think about. Maybe I can start with one of the latter, which is something you and I talked about many times, which is Brexit. And I remember saying to you quite often that if the EU drove too hard a bargain with Theresa May’s Government, it wouldn’t get through Parliament and we’d end up with the hardest of Brexits, and that’s pretty much what happened. I just wonder, looking back on that very painful period now, do you think things could’ve been handled differently? Margot Wallström Oh, looking back, I guess we all admit that things could have been done differently. But I – we here, also, in Sweden, we looked at this with kind of horror and big sadness, because we have always thought of the UK as one of our most important partners and allies, and we have so much to do with each other, you know, from trade to people who work in the UK and those who come here. So, I think that – and also for the whole of the European Union, this was such an unhappy event and, of course, a very drawn-out process. But you remember that I also told you that I think, for many years, there were so many lies and outright lies, but also myths and statements made about the European Union and very few voices in support of EU membership in the UK, so I think that that is what creates, also, a culture of – well, a debate which is not always correct and with a lot of exaggerations on both sides, I guess, and a bad climate for negotiations. The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt But do you think, from the EU side, the approach should’ve been different when you look back on what happened, or do you think it was just inevitable that we would end up with the kind of conflict that we had? 4 The Future of Liberal Democracies: In Conversation with Margot Wallström Margot Wallström Nothing is inevitable, you know, nothing is decided by destiny, but the way we act and deal with it, so I think that on both sides, we needed, sort of, wise people who would be open about their interest. And, of course, for the European Union, it was a matter of keeping, also, the European Union together and at the same time, trying to get a deal with – and an agreement which was beneficial for, as much as we could, for both sides.