IICSA Inquiry-Westminster 15 March 2019 1 Friday, 15 March 2019 1 A. I'm afraid so. I beat Dennis Skinner by 25 minutes. He 2 (10.00 am) 2 was sworn in after me. 3 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to Day 10 of 3 Q. Something he still remembers as well as you? 4 this public hearing. Mr O'Connor? 4 A. I don't think -- I always remember, Gerald Kaufman asked 5 MR O'CONNOR: Good morning, chair. Our first witness this 5 me if he could go ahead of me in the queue, so he took 6 morning is Kenneth Clarke. 6 first turn as "Father of the House" in the '70 intake. 7 MR KENNETH HARRY CLARKE (sworn) 7 Q. As I said, you were in the Whips' Office in 1972 -- 8 Examination by MR O'CONNOR 8 A. I had two years. 9 MR O'CONNOR: Can you give your full name, please? 9 Q. -- only a couple of years after you started -- 10 A. Kenneth Clarke. My full name is Kenneth Harry Clarke. 10 A. The last two years of the Heath government, when we were 11 Q. Thank you. Mr Clarke, you have had a long and 11 taking through the legislation to join the European 12 distinguished political career. You have been MP for 12 Community. 13 Rushcliffe since June 1970? 13 Q. I'm not going to ask you about Brexit? 14 A. That's so. 14 A. No, "tout ça change", but that's not the subject for 15 Q. And you have held a series of ministerial positions 15 a change. 16 under Margaret Thatcher, John Major and David Cameron, 16 Q. The Chief Whip at the time was Francis Pym, I think? 17 including Home Secretary, Chancellor of the Exchequer 17 A. Yes. 18 and Lord Chancellor? 18 Q. Could we perhaps call up on screen INQ004198. We have 19 A. That's correct. 19 cribbed this from your book, Mr Clarke? 20 Q. As you know, of particular interest to us this morning 20 A. I'm glad you've read it. 21 you were also a junior Whip in Ted Heath's government 21 Q. We have. I think the first page of this -- you will see 22 between 1972 and 1974? 22 it come up on screen -- is perhaps the title page of 23 A. That's right. 23 the book. That's just so we know where we are. Then if 24 Q. You are now the longest-serving MP in the House of 24 we can turn to the third page, please, is that a picture 25 Commons, the "Father of the House"? 25 of the Whips' Office when you were in it? Page 1 Page 2 1 A. It is indeed. I have a copy of it on my wall. 1 Q. Francis Pym, he is the man sitting to the right of 2 Q. Is that you, third in from the left, at the back? 2 Ted Heath? 3 A. It is. That's the version I use. It was when we were 3 A. Yes, indeed. 4 all getting ready. It was windy, and it is a much 4 Q. We have mentioned Tim Fortescue. I am going to come 5 better one than the rather formal one that was taken 5 back to ask you a few questions about an interview he 6 a few minutes later. The reason we are all waving our 6 gave in a few minutes, but, first of all, you provided 7 hands in the air is, there was a gust of wind, and we 7 the inquiry with a statement, which we have, and in it 8 are tidying our hair, including Ted Heath in the front. 8 you give a bit of detail about how the Whips' Office 9 It is a jolly photograph, and that's the one I keep. 9 worked in the 1970s in the House of Commons, as it then 10 Q. The one they took a few minutes later I think we might 10 was. Can you, in a few sentences, give us a description 11 see shortly because there is a passing shot of it in 11 of how life was, back in those days, in the Whips' 12 a clip I'm going to play, but, as you say, there's 12 Office? 13 Ted Heath sitting in the middle. Do we see 13 A. Well, it was a kind of -- we were a tight little club. 14 Tim Fortescue, who I am going to ask you some questions 14 We were chosen because of a range of our views, a range 15 about? 15 of ages. I think I, along with one or two -- well, 16 A. He is on the front row, on the far right. Next to me, 16 indeed one of the others -- I was a fairly newly elected 17 on my left, to the right of me on the photograph, is 17 member. As you can see from the photograph, I do look 18 Michael Jopling, who got out of a taxi at the same time 18 the youngest, and I think I was by far the youngest. So 19 as I got out of mine outside, so you're calling him 19 I knew all the new intake on both sides, actually, 20 later. 20 better than most of the others. I was very pro-European 21 Q. At the time the photo was taken, or this morning? 21 and a sort of "one nation" Tory and we had a range of 22 A. No, no, this morning. Michael and I, by coincidence, 22 views. But it was a very enjoyable club. Very 23 arrived at the same time, so I know you're calling him 23 old-fashioned atmosphere. You're going back almost 24 next. Tim Fortescue is the man sitting down on the 24 50 years here, so it really was like a sort of boys' 25 extreme right of the front row. 25 club, really. We all of us spent all the time, when the Page 3 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com Lower Ground, 20 Furnival Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London EC4A 1JS IICSA Inquiry-Westminster 15 March 2019 1 House was sitting, in the House of Commons. We were -- 1 Q. You mention in your book, I think, that each of 2 our main duty was to maintain the majority and to 2 the Whips was given a group of Tory MPs? 3 politically ease the path of the government, and we were 3 A. Yes, sure. 4 the eyes and ears of the government, really. You spent 4 Q. Sometimes described as a "flock", I think? 5 a lot of your time actually just gossipping around the 5 A. You were meant to particularly keep on eye on your 6 House. 6 flock. Mine was a Midlands group. You were also given 7 The House, in those days, sat for much longer, sat 7 a subject matter. I was, I think, the Education Whip. 8 into the night, became a political village in the 8 Q. You have mentioned socialising. You used the word 9 evenings, everybody came in, and in the bars and in the 9 "gossip". Let me just read a sentence from your 10 tearooms you picked up all the gossip and got to know 10 statement -- we don't need to bring it up on screen: 11 your colleagues, which meant you hoped nothing would 11 "We relied a great deal on gossip, rumour and 12 take you by surprise and you saw any political trouble 12 conversations with parliamentary colleagues to build up 13 coming, tried to head it off and smooth the way. It was 13 a picture of the state of political opinion and the 14 lucky I was there at a fascinating time, because the 14 political views of individual MPs." 15 Heath government, it was a delicate stage, and 15 Is that right? Is the use of the word "gossip" 16 particularly suited to me was we had the delicate 16 accurate? 17 politics of the European Communities Bill and that was 17 A. Yes. You took part in conversations, but you listened 18 carried on a cross-parties majority, so you were 18 and you reported back if there was anything in it that 19 liaising across the House as well. 19 showed that the political opinions of one of your 20 We spent a lot of time in meetings. We were very 20 colleagues were -- you know, you looked out for trouble 21 candid with each other. Francis got us all into 21 and we tried to make sure that no-one was taken by 22 everything. Ted Heath liked keeping in touch with us, 22 surprise and, if some problem was arising, then you'd 23 because he -- I think he'd enjoyed his time as 23 devise some way of sorting it out. If someone was going 24 Chief Whip in the past. So we were just the eyes and 24 to be dissident or difficult, you heard about it and 25 ears of the party. 25 then perhaps had a meeting with a minister to try to Page 5 Page 6 1 sort it out, or whatever it was. Yeah, we were getting 1 wasn't attending regularly or affecting his behaviour, 2 political -- I would stress, because of the nature of 2 yes, then you'd report that kind of thing.