EDUCATION, CULTURE AND SPORT COMMITTEE Tuesday 7 March 2000 (Afternoon) £5.00 Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body 2000. Applications for reproduction should be made in writing to the Copyright Unit, Her Majesty‟s Stationery Office, St Clements House, 2-16 Colegate, Norwich NR3 1BQ Fax 01603 723000, which is administering the copyright on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. Produced and published in Scotland on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body by The Stationery Office Ltd. Her Majesty‟s Stationery Office is independent of and separate from the company now trading as The Stationery Office Ltd, which is responsible for printing and publishing Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body publications. CONTENTS Tuesday 7 March 2000 Col. PETITION (GAELIC-MEDIUM EDUCATION) ............................................................................................................ 683 COMMITTEE BUSINESS ...................................................................................................................................... 686 CONSULTATION (CHILDREN AND YOUNG PEOPLE) .............................................................................................. 691 HAMPDEN PARK ............................................................................................................................................... 696 STANDARDS IN SCOTLAND’S SCHOOLS ETC BILL: STAGE 1 ................................................................................ 702 EDUCATION, CULTURE AND SPORT COMMITTEE 9th Meeting 2000, Session 1 CONVENER *Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab) DEPUTY CONVENER *Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD) *Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab) *Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab) *Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP) *Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) *Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab) *Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP) *Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD) *Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP) *attended CLERK TEAM LEADER Gillian Baxendine SENIOR ASSISTANT CLERK David McLaren ASSISTANT CLERK Alistair Fleming LOCATION Committee Room 3 683 7 MARCH 2000 684 already agreed to do in principle. It should not take Scottish Parliament us too long—a morning or so—but I know of a number of bodies that would like to give evidence. Education, Culture and Sport I suggest that we have the debate at that stage, Committee when we are discussing amendments to the bill. In the Gaelic debate last week, I said that I was Tuesday 7 March 2000 minded to lodge an amendment. However, that will depend a great deal on what consultation takes (Afternoon) place between now and then and what the organisations themselves suggest. We should [THE CONVENER opened the meeting at 14:03] appreciate the petition—it has the right aims; however, the debate to achieve action on it can be The Convener (Mrs Mary Mulligan): Good held during stage 2, when we will come to a afternoon. I suggest that we take the final item of definitive conclusion. the meeting in private. Is that agreed? Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): I Members indicated agreement. support that suggestion—it is an important issue, and an area in which there is continuing The Convener: I remind members that discussion. One way forward is to lodge an tomorrow‟s meeting—if it goes ahead—will be in amendment to the Standards in Scotland‟s private. I would also like to suggest that we take Schools etc Bill, while another is that this issue item 2 on the agenda first, to accommodate Mike should be part of a wider Gaelic language Russell who wants to discuss this item, but who legislative initiative; that debate will continue. We has to attend a Parliamentary Bureau meeting should note the petition and recognise that this is later. After item 2, we will go back to item 1, on an issue that we need to discuss more fully. committee business. Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): I am one of the few present who was not able to Petition (Gaelic-medium impress you with my knowledge of Gaelic in the Education) debate last week. Mike Russell‟s Gaelic was very good. A whole speech in Gaelic—I was impressed. I spent a week practising a sentence. The Convener: We have received a petition— PE82—on Gaelic-medium education. Are there Mike‟s is a good idea; we will have a chance to any questions or comments before I suggest how debate the matter further at stage 2. I support we proceed? what Lewis Macdonald said about a Gaelic language act, as securing the status of Gaelic is Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): an aim of the Gaelic community. There might be a Thank you for taking this item first, convener—I more appropriate mechanism, but we can discuss wanted to address this matter in particular. The that at a later stage. topic of the petition was aired to some extent during last week‟s Gaelic debate. It is fair to say Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and that most members are aware that the parents Easter Ross) (LD): I warmly support that, want to establish Gaelic-medium education and especially given the area that I represent. Mike are concerned that there is no particular provision. Russell is quite right to say that we can debate However, we must also consider the principle of Gaelic at stage 2. That would send a clear signal mentioning Gaelic in the first education bill ever to to the Gàidhealtachd, the western isles, and come before a Scottish Parliament. councils such as Sutherland and Ross and Cromarty, that we will seriously consider the I am grateful to Gillian Baxendine for the note matter. that she has attached to the petition, because it lays out our options clearly. We could debate the We said that the learning of Gaelic can assist subject here and now, but I think that that would education in the broadest sense in the debate, but neither do justice to the subject nor bring us to a we should say it again. It is an inflected language, resolution on the matter. There is a place for which can help children to learn German. In my debate, but as members will be aware, town, Tain, Gaelic-medium education has been a discussions are taking place in Gaelic great success and has led to improved attainment organisations about whether this is the right in other subjects. Good for them. approach to take. It might be better to hold the The Convener: We seem to have agreement on debate during stage 2 of the Standards in that. Scotland‟s Schools etc Bill. Michael Russell: Are we agreed that we will I suggest that we note the petition and resolve to take evidence at that stage? take evidence during stage 2, which we had 685 7 MARCH 2000 686 The Convener: Yes. Michael Russell: Will we ask Comann nam Committee Business Pàrant (Nàiseanta) to talk to us at that stage, and consider other organisations from which to take The Convener: We return to item 1, which is an evidence? update on committee business that will not be further discussed this afternoon. The Convener: We will make arrangements for that. The committee previously agreed to take evidence from young people on the Ethical Mr Stone: At what stage will we take evidence? Standards in Public Life etc (Scotland) Bill. We Michael Russell: Stage 2. asked Gillian Baxendine to consider the practicalities; she has several suggestions. Mr Stone: Are we including a Gaelic-medium unit—one that delivers at the sharp end—in this? Gillian Baxendine (Clerk Team Leader): We approached Children in Scotland, which has Michael Russell: No. Let us be clear. The issue consulted its children‟s policy network, to find on which we will take evidence is whether there people who were either already collecting—or should be a statutory right to Gaelic education. On were willing to collect—views from young people that issue, we should take evidence both from on the issue. Children in Scotland has told us that Comann nam Pàrant (Nàiseanta) and from other on 20 March, ChildLine is holding a major bodies. At that stage, we should decide whether— conference involving 50 schools on topics as I hope—the Executive might introduce its own including sex and bullying. ChildLine is happy to amendment or whether a member of the give us feedback on that and has invited the committee will lodge an amendment. convener to attend the session. The Convener: Is Jamie happy with that? The Aberdeen students forum has also indicated Mr Macintosh: I warn you that there are almost an interest in feeding back views. There are a few as many Gaelic organisations as there are Gaelic other organisations in the policy network that speakers. would like to come back to us with views from young people. That seemed to be quite a good Michael Russell: I am sure that the cream will way of getting a wide range of views. rise, as they say. The Convener: That would be useful, because Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): Jamie‟s those young people are already in situations brother is a cheesemaker. where they are able to express their views. It Michael Russell: We all know that now. might have been difficult to organise a session similar to the one that we already have had with Mr Stone: I will declare my interest in German young people. It is often more useful to allow next time. people to give their views in their own context. Are there any other suggestions? Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab): That is a good way forward. The Convener: Are members happy with that approach? Members indicated agreement. The Convener: I will attend the ChildLine conference and report back to the committee. I am sure that ChildLine will also provide a written report. The other matter on which we should have an update is rural schools. Would Jamie Stone like to comment on that? Mr Stone: The good news is that yesterday, I visited Dumfries and Galloway. I can assure members that it was a most useful visit and I must thank Dumfries and Galloway Council, which was very helpful.