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For further information, contact Director, Hoover Institution Library and Archives, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305-6010 © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University. o FIRinG Line GUESTS: RICHARD BROOKHISER, RICHARD KLEINDIENST SUBJECT: "A LOOK BACK AT WATERGATE" #653 SOUTHERN EDUCATIONAL COMMUNICATIONS ASSOCIA TlON SECA PRESENTS ® FIRinG Line HOST: WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY JR. GUES'rs: RICHARD BROOKHISER, RICHARD KLEINDIENST SUB.JEC'r: "A LOOK BACK AT WATERGATE" The FIRING LINE television series is a production of the Southern Educational Communications Association, 928 Woodrow St., P 0, Box 5966, Columbia, S,C" 29250 and is transmitted through the facilities of the Public Broadcasting Service, FIRING L1NEcan be FIRING LINE is produced and directed by WARREN STEIBEL seen and heard each week through public television and radio stations throughout the country, Check your local newspapers for channel and time in your area, This is a transcript of the Firing Line program taped in New York City on July 10, 1985, and telecast later by PBS. SOUTHERN EDUCATIONAL COMMUNICATIONS ASSOCIATION © Board of Trustees of the L and Stanford Jr, University, © 1985 SOUTHERN EDUCATIONAL COMMUNCIATIONS ASSOCIATION © Board of Trustees of the Lei nd Stanford Jr. University. MR. BUCKLEY: The tumultuous circumstances a year ago brought of them of critical historical importance. Although we all on after the nomination of Mrs. Geraldine Ferraro as Democratic acknowledge the guilt of Richard Nixon in the matter of the candidate for vice president reminded us yet again of the Watergate cover-up, we are, I think, entitled to ask about the elusive line between the exaction of justice and the pursuit of role of the special prosecutor, Archibald Cox, dismissed by Mr. oolitical advantage. Mrs. Ferraro was, directly and Nixon on the famous Saturday Night Massacre. The question, indirectly, accused of improper conduct. So it was, during the continuingly relevant, is: Was Mr. Cox qualified as a same season, in the matter oE Edwin Meese, nominated by disinterested justice-seeker? And if he was not, why was he President Reagan as attorney general--a post he now holds, .but named special prosecutor? Mr. Kleindienst? only after undergoing an ordeal generally conceded aft~r h1s exoneration as a pursuit less of justice than of polem1cal MR. KLEINDIENST: Well, as you know, Mr. Buckley, in my book I advantage. The purpose of this hour is to explore, with one devote a chapter, which I entitled 'Cox and Richardson,' in seasoned guest who has been directly involved with the problem, which at least from my standpoint and point of view, I examine and with another--a young editor and writer not yet accused of the circumstances under which Professor Cox was made special anything save a prodigious display of talent--the whole prosecutor and the reasons why-- question, viewed in distinctive contexts. MR. BUCKLEY: Elliot Richardson was, of course, your successor. Richard Kleindienst was attorney general of the United States. He has written a book called Justice: The Memoirs of an MR. KLEINDIENST: Yes, he succeeded me as the attorney general. Attorney General. Mr. Kleindienst succeeded .John Mi tchell an~ And I try to make the case that Professor Cox was the wrong was confirmed a few weeks before Watergate. Subsequent turm01l person to be the special prosecutor, and I think Elliot resulted in his resignation. At the time President Nixon Richardson caused him to be appointed the special prosecutor dismissed Robert Haldeman and John Erlichman, his two closest for the wrong reasons. Shortly after the watergate incident, aides, he requested also the resignation of Mr. Kleindienst. and after talking to many people, I recommended to the White This resignation he tendered, on the understanding that he was House that a special prosecutor be appointed immediately-- in no way implicated in the Watergate business. A few months later, Mr. Kleindienst was indicted for perjury on an unrelated MR. BUCKLEY: It was not then mandatory? matter bearing on his testimony before a Senate committee which resulted in a nominal fine ($100) and a 3D-day sentence MR. KLEINDIENST: No. No, no. As a matter of fact, it wasn't (suspended) meted out by a jUdge who held him substantively mandatory at the time that Elliot Richardson caused Cox to be innocent of wrongdoing. I note here, though only for the appointed special prosecutor. Attorney generals are political record, that f.our years later Mr. Kleindienst was suspended appointees of the president of the united States. Watergate from the practice of law in Arizona as a result of a protracted was really a political trespass on one of our sacred examination of his role in a tangled question involving his institutions and that's the institution of politics. And I relations with an insurance company. After the year was over, believed from the very outset that you should have a highly he was welcomed back to the bar, and given by the legal qualified, objective, non-political, distinterested person, who fraternity of Arizona the highest rating a private body can would make the essential prosecutive decisions with respect to give a practicing lawyer. what really was a political crime. That idea was rejected-- Richard Kleindienst was an honors graduate of Harvard and of MR. BUCKLEY: By whom? the Harvard Law School. He was closely associated with Senator Barry Goldwater and helped to manage his campaign for the MR. KLEINDIENST: By the White House. I never discussed it presidency. He was a candidate for governor of Arizona in 1964 directly with President Nixon, but I did directly with the and was named deputy attorney general by Mr. Nixon after his White House and the White House staff and they knew my election. recommendations. By the time it came down to Mr. Richardson succeeding me as the attorney general, his nomination was in Richard Brookhiser has completed a book on the presidential effect being held up by the Senate Judiciary Committee because election campaign of 1984, which will be published by Doubleday some members of the Senator Judiciary Committee, particularly in February of next year. Mr. Brookhiser in his book, entitled the so-called liberal Democratic members of the Committee were The outside Story, closely examines the problems faced by Mrs. insisting upon a special prosecutor. There was no problem Ferraro. He is a graduate of Yale, also with honors, serves as about that, but I think-- a senior editor of National Review, and has contributed to numerous publications. MR. BUCKLEY: Let me interrupt you to say that a prosecutor is a term that presupposes an antagonistic relationship. Am I The question has arisen whether the law lends itself to the correct that they no longer use that term for precisely that degradation of justice, to political vendettas. I should like reason? They have substituted investigator or something like to begin by asking Mr. Kleindienst several questions, the fi~st that? 1 2 © Board of Trustees of the Lei nd Stanford Jr. University. MR. BUCKLEY: You can't do your best to be disinterested: You MR. KLEINDIENST: Well, no, I think it's still called a special either are or aren't, right? prosecutor. It shouldn't be an adversary term. A prosecutor is a person who, if he has information that somebody has MR. KLEINDIENST: Yes. You either are or you aren't. And in violated the law, investigates it and if there is evidence to his case--and I have the greatest respect for him support a trial, then they proceed. intellectually--he put himself in an impossible position. He was in effect the fox in the chicken coop, you know, with the MR. BUCKLEY: Well, but you are using prosecution in a sense in door locked behind him. And I think Elliot caused that to be which it is not publicly understood. A prosecutor is usually done because ElliDt wanted to be sure that he was going to have thought of as somebody who has evidence of wrongdoing, not his nomination to succeed me as the attorney general confirmed. somebody who is looking in as a grand jury might as to whether So they both, I think, found themselves there for the wrong there was wrongdoing. reasons, and I remember thinking at the time that this is going to wind up, you know, in difficulty. Because their path to the MR. KLEINDIENST: Well, you take your United States attorney or Saturday Night Massacre was almost preordained. The statute your county attorney or your state's attorney, they are that now has been-- prosecutors, but the first thing they have to do is to find out if a crime has been committed and if there is evidence to do MR. BUCKLEY: You'd better remind the audience what happened in it, then they indict somebody and they go ahead and prosecute the Saturday Night Massacre so we can fill in the context. it. So in that sense, perhaps it isn't an appropriate term,' but that's what they called a special prosecutor. MR. KLEINDIENST: Well, a dispute existed between the White House and the Office of the Special Prosecutor, Mr.