TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL HISTORY RECORDING Accession number S00520 Title (337678/VX12843) Saunders, Reginald Walter (Reg) (Captain) Interviewer Dr Peter Read Place made Not given Date made 13 January 1989 Description Reginald Walter (Reg) Saunders, Aboriginal serviceman 2/7th Battalion, interviewed by Peter Read for the Keith Murdoch Sound Archive of Australia in the War of 1939– 45. Discusses education; employment; religion; enlistment; aborigines in WW2; 2/7th Battalion; training; mateship; leave; racism; desert operations; disease; air raids; discipline; rations; AIF Greek relations; promotion; jungle operations; Returned Services League (RSL); Mentions Victoria; Bardia, Middle East; Greece; Crete, Salamaua, Papua New Guinea; Korea. REG SAUNDERS Page 2 of 57 Disclaimer The Australian War Memorial is not responsible either for the accuracy of matters discussed or opinions expressed by speakers, which are for the reader to judge. Transcript methodology Please note that the printed word can never fully convey all the meaning of speech, and may lead to misinterpretation. Readers concerned with the expressive elements of speech should refer to the audio record. It is strongly recommended that readers listen to the sound recording whilst reading the transcript, at least in part, or for critical sections. Readers of this transcript of interview should bear in mind that it is a verbatim transcript of the spoken word and reflects the informal conversational style that is inherent in oral records. Unless indicated, the names of places and people are as spoken, regardless of whether this is formally correct or not – e.g. ‘world war two’ (as spoken) would not be changed in transcription to ‘second world war’ (the official conflict term). A few changes or additions may be made by the transcriber or proof–reader. Such changes are usually indicated by square brackets, thus: [ ] to clearly indicate a difference between the sound record and the transcript. Three dots (…) or a double dash (– –) indicate an unfinished sentence. Copyright Copyright in this transcript, and the sound recording from which it was made, is usually owned by the Australian War Memorial, often jointly with the donors. Any request to use of the transcript, outside the purposes of research and study, should be addressed to: Australian War Memorial GPO Box 345 CANBERRA ACT 2601 REG SAUNDERS Page 3 of 57 BEGIN TAPE 1 SIDE A. This is Reg Saunders, tape 1 on the thirteenth of January 1989. Tape 1 side 1. Reg could you tell me where you were born? Yes I was born at a place called – (laughter) you're not going to believe this – Bunyip Lane. It's just outside old Framlingham Aboriginal Reserve. It was actually called Bunyip Lane. And what year was that? 1920. Seventh of August 1920. I wasn't actually born there, no, I wasn't, no. I tell you a lie. I lived there. .. I wasn't born there, I was born up – no I was born there. I was taken there to be born as a matter of fact. As a matter of fact Aunt Mary – Lionel Rose's great- grandmother, she was the midwife that looked after me. She and Mrs Clarke – from the great Clarke families – the Aboriginal Clarke families – they were two of the great midwives. Yeah I was I was, taken from near Purnim down to where Aunt Mary lived as a matter of fact, it was in her house where I was born. And did you go to school in Framlingham? No no I went to school at Lake Condah. See mother died when I was four years old. My brother was two years old and Dad took the .. he carted us around as an itinerant worker and then he looked after me until he realised that we weren't getting anywhere with him because we weren't being educated. So that was when grandmother – my mother's mother – and she brought us up the dear old soul. And secondary school there too? I didn't go to secondary school. I did for a little while but I didn't consider I ever went to secondary school. I went to Hamilton High School for a short period but I didn't like it because I didn't like being away from home. How far is that away? About thirty miles. It was boarding and I didn't like boarding. I'd never lived with white people before. I'd lived – as an independent I'd never lived dependent on white people before and I didn't like the idea that I should ever have to do that so I just quietly went back to the course at Scots College and I, as many other country kids did, I did a course there. Like the correspondence? Correspondence. Scot's was the big one there in Melbourne, Victoria in those days. What about after school, any kind of education part time before you became a soldier? Not really no, not that sort of education, no. I done nothing of that nature simply because I didn't think – I didn't think a sawmiller would want to be very greatly educated. (coughs) Yeah I don't think it was relevant really. I was a Victorian and I was with all Victorians. What employment did you have before you joined up? REG SAUNDERS Page 4 of 57 Well I was mainly – I was in the timber milling industry and I just remained in that. I was always cutting logs and building sawmills and things like that. It interested me. Bob Bloomfield was also a – he was a timber cutter actually. Yeah well I was both. I was building sawmills and a timber cutter. I was interested in that side of it – very interested as a matter of fact. Any ambitions that you – did you have at the time before the war broke out? What did you want to do? Yes, I wanted to go to South America and fight for the depressed people over there. It was always an ambition of mine to go to South America. It wasn't a romantic thought; it just interested me that people were being so – you know they were being badly depressed and they still are there in South America. I always wanted to go there. I suppose you saw them as one of the repressed nations of the world, a bit like the Kooris? Yes, very much so, yes, very much so. Probably more so than Kooris. It seens that there was only two sides in South America – Kooris have got all sort of people that are Kooris today. Not so much those days but today. Whereas in South America you only have two sides. They're a very religious people and I guess that they're taking advantages of them. (5.00) Do you think you would have gone to South America? I'm sure I would have done yes. I was going to go by boat, and when war came about it was about the time I thought I'd go to the other thing, you know. We'll put the religious question in. Just answer it if you feel like it. Was religion important to you when you were a young man? Oh no I never thought much about it. I did go to church on a regular basis but I was never confirmed. I was christened obviously but I was never confirmed in the Church of England as most of the other people of my age group were and I mean both groups – the whites and the Aboriginal people, but – yes religion was important to me. Still is. Any interest in politics at that time? Not at that time. (Sneezes) You were travelling around a fair bit I should think as a timber worker? No I hardly moved. I didn't move for jobs at all, I moved more as a social thing – just a holiday, little holidays here, little holidays there, that's all – so I didn't do any .. I was constantly employed (sneeze) in the present years. Married at this time? Oh no of course not. Oh no. Before the war I mean. (Break in recording) I wonder how you thought about yourself, as a – fighting for Britain in any way or fighting for Australia or – when the war broke out? REG SAUNDERS Page 5 of 57 Well I think you got to know a little more about the Aboriginal side of that. We've been fighting a war ever since the first whites came, particularly my people that were in the Condah were very proud people. We had quite a legion of Aboriginal servicemen in World War I. My father for example – the man I was named after, Reginald – William Reginald Rawlings – he won a Military Medal and was killed in France. Many of the fellows – Dad's friends – were Aboriginal soldiers – MacKinnon, the five Robert brothers – whom you may have heard of .. was always there. I was born in 1920, what two years after the war isn't it? Mmm. So where'd your identification be – fighting for justice rather than for Britain or for Australia or .. No I never fought for anybody but Australia. I always was loyal to my country. Someone once asked me if I thought so little of the British Crown and the Raj or whatever you'd like to call it. Why did you, you know, go and fight for it. I said 'I didn't go and fight for it at all. I fought for the Queen of Australia – or the King of Australia – I didn't want the King or the Queen of England because I'd have been just as happy fighting against them, Australia is my country.