Eighth Report of the Committee on Standards in Public Life Chair: Sir Nigel Wicks GCB CVO CBE Standards of Conduct in the House of Commons Oral Evidence Presented to Parliament by the Prime Minister by Command of Her Majesty November 2002 Cm 5663 © Crown Copyright 2002 The text in this document may be reproduced free of charge in any format or medium providing that it is reproduced accurately and not used in a misleading context. The material must be acknowledged as Crown copyright and the title of the document specified. Any enquiries relating to the copyright in this document should be addressed to The Licensing Division, HMSO, St Clements House, 2-16 Colegate, Norwich, NR3 1BQ. Fax: 01603 723000 or e-mail: licensing@cabinet- office.x.gsi.gov.uk. Transcripts of Oral Evidence TABLE OF CONTENTS VOLUME 2 LIST OF WITNESSES Where witnesses have submitted opening statements these have been included at the end of each day’s evidence. Page. Tuesday 7 May 2002 Morning Session Rt Hon Robin Cook MP, Leader of the House 2 Sir William McKay KCB, Clerk of the House 9 Rt Hon Eric Forth MP, Shadow Leader of the House 16 Matthew Parris, former Parliamentary sketch writer for The Times and former Member of Parliament 22 Tuesday 7 May 2002 Afternoon Session Rt Hon Sir George Young Bt MP, Chair of the Standards and Privileges Select Committee, and Alan Sandall, Clerk to the Committee 27 Rt Hon Charles Clarke MP, Minister without Portfolio and Chair of the Labour Party 36 Rt Hon David Davis MP, Chair of the Conservative Party and former Chairman of the Public Accounts Select Committee 40 Wednesday 8 May 2002 Morning Session Martin Bell OBE, former Member of Parliament and member of the Standards and Privileges Select Committee 47 Peter Bottomley MP, former member of the Standards and Privileges Select Committee 53 Paul Tyler CBE MP, Shadow Leader of the House 61 Sir Michael Buckley KBE, Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration 67 Wednesday 8 May 2002 Afternoon Session Archy Kirkwood MP, Spokesperson for the House of Commons Commission, and Robert Rogers, Secretary to the Commission 77 Rt Hon Sir Archibald Hamilton, former Member of Parliament 87 Tam Dalyell MP, Father of the House 91 Monday 13 May 2002 Morning Session Philip Mawer, Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards 97 Rt Hon Lord Sheldon, former Chairman of the Standards and Privileges Select Committee 104 Rt Hon Alan Williams MP, Member of the Standards and Privileges Select Committee 112 James Hardy, Political Editor, The Mirror (also Lobby Journalists’ Chairman) and Trevor Kavanagh, Political Editor, The Sun 117 Monday 13 May 2002 Afternoon Session Michael Jabez Foster DL MP, Member of the Standards and Privileges Select Committee 125 Dawn Oliver, Professor of Constitutional Law, University College London 133 David Heath CBE MP, Member of the Standards and Privileges Select Committee 138 Thursday 16 May 2002 (Edinburgh) Morning Session Brian Taylor, Political Editor, BBC Scotland 148 Mike Rumbles MSP, Convener, Standards Committee of the Scottish Parliament and Dr Samantha Jones, Clerk to the Committee 153 & 165 William Spence QPM, Adviser to the Standards Committee of the Scottish Parliament 161 Iain Martin, Editor, The Scotsman and Iain MacWhirter, Broadcaster and Chief Political Commentator, The Sunday Herald 166 Colin Munro, Professor of Constitutional Law, University of Edinburgh 172 i The Committee on Standards in Public Life Thursday 16 May 2002 (Edinburgh) Afternoon Session Garry Watson, former Adviser to the Standards Committee of the Scottish Parliament 183 Barry Winetrobe, Parliamentary and constitutional consultant 188 Monday 20 May 2002 Morning Session Rt Hon Baroness Boothroyd, former Speaker of the House of Commons 195 Peter Preston, former Editor-in-Chief and David Hencke Westminster Correspondent, The Guardian 202 Dame Rennie Fritchie, Commissioner for Public Appointments 208 Monday 20 May 2002 Afternoon Session Angela Browning MP, former Shadow Leader of the House and former member of the House of Commons Commission 219 Sir Gordon Downey, former Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards 225 Ms Elizabeth Filkin, former Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards 232 Kevin McNamara MP, Member of the Standards and Privileges Select Committee 241 Tuesday 28 May 2002 Morning Session Major General Michael Scott CB CBE DSO, Lay Commissioner of the Bar Council and Jonathan Acton Davis QC, Chair of the Bar Council’s Professional Conduct and Complaints Committee 251 Rt Hon Kenneth Clarke QC MP, former Cabinet Minister 258 Sir Edward Osmotherly CB, former Chair of the Commission for Local Administration in England and former Chairman of the British and Irish Ombudsman Association 263 Robert Kaye, Centre for Analysis of Risk and Regulation, London School of Economics 267 Tuesday 28 May 2002 Afternoon Session Rt Hon Lord Nicholls of Birkenhead, Lord of Appeal in Ordinary 277 Peter Riddell, Assistant Editor (Politics), The Times 282 Tuesday 11 June 2002 Morning Session Ross Cranston QC MP, Member of the Standards and Privileges Select Committee 289 Keith Vaz MP 296 Dean Nelson, Scotland Editor, The Sunday Times 302 Rt Hon Hilary Armstrong MP, Government Chief Whip 306 Tuesday 11 June 2002 Afternoon Session Sir Donald Irvine CBE, former President of the General Medical Council 321 Dr Tony Wright MP, Chairman of the Public Administration Select Committee 326 Andrew Stunell OBE MP, Liberal Democrat Chief Whip 332 Alex Salmond MP, SNP Parliamentary Group Leader 336 Friday 14 June 2002 Donovan McClelland MLA, Chairman of Northern Ireland Assembly Committee on Standards and Privileges; Tom Frawley, Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and Commissioner for Complaints; John MacQuarrie, Deputy Assembly Ombudsman; and John Torney, Principal Clerk of Northern Ireland Assembly Standards Committee 345 Sir John Bourn KCB, Comptroller and Auditor General 352 Ms Rhoda James LLB MA, Senior Lecturer in Law and Dr Richard Kirkham LLB MA, Lecturer in Law, Faculty of Law, University of Sheffield 358 Rt Hon David Maclean MP, Opposition Chief Whip 362 Lord Campbell-Savours, former Member of Parliament and former member of the Standards and Privileges Select Committee 367 Wednesday 18 September 2002 Sir Philip Mawer, Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards; Rt Hon Sir George Young Bt MP, Chair of the Standards and Privileges Select Committee, and Alan Sandall, Clerk to the Committee 377 ii Transcripts of Oral Evidence LIST OF SUPPLEMENTARY MEMORANDA RELATING TO TRANSCRIPTS OF ORAL EVIDENCE VOLUME 2 The principal documents necessary to understand evidence given by witnesses in the transcripts of oral evidence are included at the end of this volume. Copies of other submissions received by the Committee, relating to the study on the House of Lords, are published on CD-Rom, and may be consulted at the Public Records Office in Kew, the Public Record Office in Northern Ireland in Belfast, the Scottish Public Record Office in Edinburgh and the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth. Page. 1. Supplementary Memoranda from the Rt Hon Sir Archibald Hamilton 385 2. Supplementary Memoranda from the Rt Hon Alan Williams MP 385 3. Supplementary Memoranda from William A Spence QPM 385 4. Supplementary Memoranda from Barry Winetrobe 386 5. Supplementary Memoranda from the Rt Hon Lord Sheldon 387 6. Supplementary Memoranda from Robert Kaye 387 7. Supplementary Memoranda from Ross Cranston QC MP 388 8. Second Supplementary Memoranda from Ross Cranston QC MP 389 LIST OF ORGANISATIONS AND INDIVIDUALS SUBMITTING WRITTEN EVIDENCE 391 The list includes Members of the House of Commons, House of Lords, representative bodies, individuals and members of the public who contributed written submissions. Evidence which concerned individual cases, or which has been found to contain potentially defamatory material, has been excluded. All the evidence we received (including unpublished submissions) was given due consideration in our work. LIST OF ABBREVIATIONS AND ACRONYMS 392 iii The Committee on Standards in Public Life iv The Committee on Standards in Public Life Transcripts of Oral Evidence Tuesday 7 May 2002 (Morning Session) Members present: Sir Nigel Wicks GCB CVO CBE (Chair) Ann Abraham Lord Goodhart QC Professor Alice Brown Rabbi Julia Neuberger Sir Anthony Cleaver Rt Hon Chris Smith MP _________________________________________________________________________________________ Witnesses: Rt Hon Robin Cook MP, Leader of the House Sir William McKay KCB, Clerk of the House Rt Hon Eric Forth MP, Shadow Leader of the House Matthew Parris, former parliamentary sketch writer for The Times and former Member of Parliament 1. Nigel Wicks: Let me now start formally the arrangements are sufficient to assure the public that proceedings of this Committee. Let me say welcome to the highest standards of propriety are being upheld, everyone who is here. This is the first of the and we will make whatever recommendations we think Committee’s public hearings into standards of conduct necessary. Now, we have invited evidence from over in the House of Commons. 50 witnesses, including members of the House of Commons, academics, commentators and those with 2. What I intend to do now is to say a few general professional experience that will help inform our words and then ask the Leader of the House, Mr Cook, thinking. And we will be hearing from both the present to give his opening statement and we will then begin and previous holders of the post of Parliamentary the questions. Commissioner for Standards. 3. This is the eighth major enquiry