Simone Forti Interviewed by Sarah Lehrer-Graiwer Sarah Lehrer-Graiwer: improvising in short bursts, and then would see how they worked together. I thought we could focus mainly on you step out and watch. When we were going to do a con- the News Animations, but that we Lehrer-Graiwer: So you’re cert, we would say, and here’s what could begin by talking about your improvising as a group and individu- I would call structure, we would say, history a bit, and your approach als can step out and watch the rest of okay, why don’t you start with this to improvisation. You were intro- the group, and then come back in? and solo it for a while, and then I’ll duced to improvisation through Anna Forti: Yes, but she works with bring in this material. The material Halprin in the late-1950s, and then, different structures, so that a person had names. And I was working a lot soon after, to conceptual practice might go in, and then being in the at the time with animal movement, and a Cagean approach to chance space they might control the image a movement vocabulary I was devel- through Robert Dunn in New York. of what the space is doing with them oping from watching animals in the I wonder how, over the years, you and the environment. And then zoo, and when possible, going to see refined your particular approach, someone else goes in and adds to a collection of Egyptian art, because which is maybe different from those that. And then they both come out. the Egyptians used animals a lot. two main formative sources? So it’s a way of putting the improvisa- Their deities were often half-ani- Simone Forti: I think that tion under a microscope. I don’t tend mal, half-human. I might have a run in a sense I reverted to being more to work like that, but I really liked it and jump that would end up, sud- influenced by Anna in the News when I’ve worked with her, when I’m denly, still, in the position of this little Animations, in that I’m really impro- into some idea and then suddenly: statue I’d seen at the Louvre of the vising. Anna always had us impro- zoom in, or zoom out, or repeat, or god that had the head of a bird. So I vise in relation to something. So jump to another idea. might say, I’m going to do that, and the improvisations were always an Lehrer-Graiwer: Being he’d say, okay, we haven’t tried it yet exploration of something. Especially given direction? with the stuff I’ve been doing with in the, I’ll use the word ‘exercises,’ Forti: Being given direc- the recorder flute — let’s try putting where she would say, we’re going tions but basically being interrupted. those together. So those were struc- to focus on weight, we’re going to Having my flow of movement ideas tures. And the vocabularies in sound focus on negative space, we’re going and verbal ideas interrupted, and and in movement were, for me, to focus on speaking nonsense. So then having to jump to something explorations. it’s not so different when I focus now else, or having to do it again. Rather Lehrer-Graiwer: You’ve on my thoughts, and especially my than distancing me from what I had referred to this as research. Do you unformed thoughts about the world, been doing, it makes me more con- think about your long-term prac- and when I improvise from that. scious of what I’m doing and it stim- tice as private research or cultural Lehrer-Graiwer: I won- ulates the flow of ideas by having research? Or maybe those aren’t very der, with improvisation more gener- these interruptions. different? ally and with the News Animations Lehrer-Graiwer: Well that Forti: Yeah, I don’t see them in particular, is there a rule struc- makes me want to ask about con- as such different things. I think often ture you start with? Or what are the scious and unconscious modes of that if I’m wondering about some- parameters you give yourself? improvisation. But first, you homed thing it’s because a lot of us are won- Forti: I would say more gen- in on the term structure. Does that dering about it. erally with improvisation there’s mean something specific in dance, Lehrer-Graiwer: Okay, to always an area of research, let’s say, or in your practice? I wonder if you go back for a moment to when you that’s already clearly marked, that could describe what that term, struc- were talking about working with Lisa shows the limits of the improvisation. ture, refers to, versus the problem or Nelson and being interrupted, and Structure is something else. When I the idea flow or the research? enjoying that for making you more get a chance, I work with Lisa Nelson Forti: I worked for many present or conscious, I was wonder- and her image lab structure. We’ll years with a musician, Peter Van ing about the relationship between start an improvisation and someone Riper. Our way of working was that improvisation and the unconscious. who’s sitting out may say: zoom in, he would bring to the situation musi- Is that a major subject of thinking or or back up, or run it backwards, or cal things that he had been working exploration for you? repeat. with. I might almost say riffs, or even Forti: I’m happy to think about Lehrer-Graiwer: Can you melodies. it. It’s not something I’ve specifically explain what the image lab is? Lehrer-Graiwer: thought about, but it is interesting. Forti: Yes, Lisa Nelson is Prerecorded? What it brings to mind is the differ- a dancer and is also co-editor of Forti: No no, he played sax- ence between when an improvisation Contact Quarterly, a journal of mov- ophone and a lot of small instru- is really happening, is really work- ing ideas, or of dance and improvi- ments, like thumb piano and some ing, and when you have to work very sation. She’s been working with this wind instruments. But basically he hard and really pull out your skills structure for a long time with many played saxophone. So he would and tell yourself, okay Simone, stop. people as she travels and gives work- bring his materials in, and I would Just stand for a moment. Take in shops. It’s a very structured way of bring my materials in, and then we the space. Take in the sounds in the space and what’s happening. What movement is relevant, and if so, is or a personal style? I’m thinking ideas do you have that you can get that something to resist or to explore also about how much Judson Dance started with again? Okay, I can look with interest? If this is a form of the Theater, or your peers in Judson, like around for shapes and forms and unconscious in dance and move- Yvonne Rainer, were so concerned at qualities in the space, and try them ment, then how is it different now a crucial point with evacuating a kind on in my body to see if that turns me compared to thirty years ago? of virtuosity or style that could be on. There’s that kind of very con- Forti: I don’t think it’s that dif- associated with persona or personal- scious use of skills. Or you think, ferent now, although it keeps chang- ity. I wonder if that’s something you oh my god, this. And then the path ing. My body has changed. My body resist or are interested in, that is, how opens, followed by that, and then keeps changing. I accumulate certain your own personal style of move- this, and then there’s a sound in riffs and forget others, so the vocab- ment emerges organically through the space, and then you roll on the ulary does change. And there is a improvisation. ground. Sometimes I say it’s as if an vocabulary. But then there are always Forti: I don’t think much angel were to drop the improvisa- some new responses to the moment. about it. However, I know that there tion in your lap and it just happens. And of course even if I do have some are two things that have very much People talk about being a vessel, riffs, they can’t be the same because influenced my movement vocabu- about flow, and I think a part of the they’re not in the same context, they lary, or my style — watching animals, consciousness, let’s say, that we refer didn’t lead up in the same way, it and tai chi. I’ve done a lot of tai chi. to as the subconscious or uncon- doesn’t work. Sometimes it’s hard, if I think you can see me dancing for scious, I think there’s another part I do two improvisation performances thirty seconds, and even in just how of the consciousness that comes in on following nights and the first night I use my knees, there’s a lot of tai chi and maybe takes a lot of things into is really hot and works and I think, oh, in there. That’s my safety structure. consideration. It’s a more open mind I’m going to try that again.