Mind in An Interview with Joel Kramer

BY JEANNE MALMGREN CAMERON

oel Kramer emerges from the bedroom, “What in the world should I be doing!” First Jwhere he’s been working on his , I looked for answers along a traditional, aca- slips easily into Lotus position, and settles demic route, working for a doctorate in phi- down for a long talk about one of his fa- losophy and later switching to the study of vorite subjects. Kramer is physically small psychology. Eventually, though, all that be- Photo by: Kevin W. Kelly W. Kevin Photoby: and compact, with a solid though not overly came like a game of tic-tac-toe, where you muscular body; his abundant energy spills know the game so well you never lose! But Joel Kramer out in incessant hand gestures and in a fore- I still wasn’t getting the answers I wanted. an animal, a kind of elegance, an élan. So head that wrinkles deeply with each thought. So I dropped out of graduate school in 1965 I decided to look into this physical on Clearly, he loves talking about yoga, loves and began to investigate the influx of East- my own – and I’ve never stopped! It just doing yoga, and he approaches the topic ern philosophy just beginning at that time. I clicked for me quite naturally. Not that I was with all the reverence and humor that such was particularly interested in the differences particularly flexible – I could hardly touch an intense interest inevitably inspires. between Eastern and Western approaches to my at first, let alone my toes, and I Joel, in the past 15 years or so, you’ve the structure of thought. couldn’t do any of the postures. But I began carved out a name for yourself as some- One day a friend played me a tape of a to see that I was playing with energy, and thing of a maverick in the Western yoga lecture by Krishnamurti. At the end of the I developed an internal, nonintellectual un- community. You are almost completely half-hour, I realized I hadn’t heard a word of derstanding of the meaning and differentia- self-taught, you don’tseem to follow it! When I listened to it again, I understood tion of energy. The physical yoga began to anybody’s rules but those of your own in- that I had tuned it out because what Krish- move energy in a way that made it easier for stincts, and your theories, in some cases, namurti was saying undermined many of me to become more attentive to my internal debunk some of the classical teachings of the things I held dear. He was talking about processes. yoga. What’s yoga all about for you? how deeply conditioned the human mind is. Which in turn enriched your study of From my perspective, yoga is a transforma- This was my first introduction to what, in . tive process, a continual renewal of the pos- the broadest sense, might be called yoga, the Yes. I began to see how the mind struc- sibilities we have as human beings. And my yoga of the mind. I was totally fascinated by tures and conditions. How it builds habits, movement in yoga has been to translate a lot the methodology of his approach to the in- and how those habits actually filter our per- of what might be called the wisdom of the ner search – an inward turning of the mind ception of the world. I began to observe how ages into modern, meaningful terms that can onto itself. I’d never seen anything like this I dodge things with my mind, how I sepa- be appropriate for our lives and our culture. in all my formal training. rate myself from others out of fear or out of a That’s exactly what makes your ap- As I explored further and realized what need to feel better than they. I didn’t find all proach so suitable for Western students, a highly conditioned mind I had, I also be- this particularly comfortable, but I did find I think. Your attention to the role of mind came aware of what a highly conditioned interesting! in yoga practice – what you call Jnana body I had – how stiff and tight it was. So Maybe you’d better clarify what you Yoga – is particularly attractive to those around 1967 I began to do physical yoga. mean by Jnana Yoga. of us interested in the body-mind synthe- At that time not too much information was Jnana Yoga is a quality of awareness in sis. How did you come across the prin- available about , and the art, at which the mind turns in upon itself and ciples of Jnana Yoga and begin to apply least in this country, was rather primitive. begins to observe its own conditioning pro- them to your life? I began to pick people’s brains who knew cess. You’re not saying,’’Oh, I shouldn’t be In the 1960s I was concerned with some something about it, and I lived for a while doing this,” you’re not necessarily trying of those excruciating dilemmas that young with a man who had studied in India. Al- to control it or make it go away, you’re just people face, questions like, “Why am I though his classes didn’t particularly interest becoming interested in the nature of mental here?” “What’s living about, anyway?” and me, I was attracted by the way he moved as conditioning.

Yoga Journal; July/August, 1986 1 Much of the structure of our conditioning a shattering of self-images, a major shift in its limits, but that’s not the issue.) The real reveals itself only in our relationships. Let’s one’s habitual life patterns. blocks are the limitations in the mind. We’ve say, for example, that you and I have a re- Let’s talk a little about your theory of how already seen how the mind can limit our lationship. If you hurt my feelings, I’ll start the mind influences the body in asana. movement in relationships; it has the same to see you through the filter or memory of I have found that the essence of yoga is not effect in asana. For instance, think about that hurt. There are lots of things I could do physical flexibility, but the quality of mind the reasons you come out of a posture when with that: I could forgive you, I could avoid you bring to your practice. For example, the you do. Maybe you’re bored, you feel you’ve you, I could ignore you, or I could eke out a mind is very much attached to making prog- done your duty, you’ve held it as long as little vengeance against you – not necessar- ress, to getting better. But after you’ve made some book says you should, or whatever. ily even consciously – by a sharp word or some initial progress in yoga, you come to a If you look closely, you’ll find that the first a subtle put-down, or by telling my friends point where the body has to stop and assimi- thing that tires in a pose is usually the mind. what a drag you are. And I would probably late it. You hit a plateau. Suddenly, you have The quality of attention weakens first. You enjoy this vengeance, even though I don’t to put in the same amount of energy just begin to treat the body casually, and then the body becomes tired. To build endurance in yoga, you must build the capacity to be in the body and attentive to it for longer periods of time. Let me give you another example of the role mind can play in asana. As I do yoga in the morning, I may watch my mind say to itself, “I want to be at least as flexible as I was yesterday. Hopefully more so, but certainly no less.” The mind approaches an asana with a set of expectations with a re- membered level of flexibility that it wants to match, feeling good if it reaches it, better if it surpasses it, or a little turned off if it doesn’t quite meet it. The mind can’t help doing that, because the very nature of thought is com- Photo by: Ben Thompson Ben Photoby: parative. But if that becomes the total way acknowledge that I’m a vengeful person. But to maintain a certain level of proficiency. you approach your practice, you run the risk if I begin to look closely at the nature of this Of course, at this point the mind starts los- of ignoring the feedback of the body while relationship, I can observe that when you ing interest, and you back off, do yoga less unconsciously pushing toward an image. hurt me, I automatically want to hurt back. or even stop doing it altogether...until your And that image limits you and causes you If I can just observe this automatic, condi- body begins to complain and you feel moti- to tighten. tioned response without judging it, I can see vated to put more energy into it again. There seems to be a paradox here. my conditioning. And that seeing frees me In other words, you continue on the We talk about yielding to the body’s na- from having to react to you in an automatic same old treadmill. tive intelligence, but we’ve also seen that way. In order to do that, though, I have to be Yes. And it’s the attachment to progress much of what happens in the postures is willing to look. that causes this cycle. I’m trying to teach controlled by the mind. This sounds very much like Buddhist people that part of the game of yoga is figur- It’s not really a paradox. At times the mind Vipassana – watching the ing out ways of keeping yourself turned on controls the body; at other times the body arising of thoughts and feelings without so that the practice stays new and fresh. For takes over. But at still other times there is evaluating or trying to control them. example, someone can be in a finished asana total movement, with the body and mind Many traditions touch on this – Vipassana, that is aesthetically quite beautiful, yet they working together. This point, which in- certain Hindu techniques, Taoist traditions. may not be doing yoga at all. Whereas an- volves a fusing of body and mind through They’re all describing a quality of awareness other person may be far from the completed the breath, has a special energy, a special that does nothing but observe. You observe pose but is much more in touch with their quality to it. the movement of thought within yourself; body and what’s happening there. As I’ve And you can reach this point by focus- you don’t try to silence it or make it go away. said, I feel that yoga is a process. In some ing on the breath? You’re trying to catch it in the moment of its ways, the accomplishments are like the froth Yes, because the breath is one of the sys- appearance. Although it sounds simple, this on a wave. They have their own beauty, but tems that both functions automatically and is probably one of the most difficult things they’re relatively insubstantial. can be controlled. You’ve heard teachers to do, because it’s very hard to do nothing So the mind does have a direct effect on say, “Breathe into your shoulder,’’ and you and just take a look at what’s happening. But the way we do postures. think, “How in the world does one do that?” this, I feel, is how we move toward real un- Definitely. In fact, the real limits in yoga It’s not that you’re breathing into your shoul- derstanding. Growth almost always involves are not physical (Of course, the body has der – you’re breathing into your lungs, obvi-

2 ; July/August, 1986 ously – but through the energy of the breath If your yoga is painful, it will become a and the focus of the mind, you can channel chore, instead of the real joy it should be, and and maneuver energy into different parts of you’ll figure out all sorts of reasons to avoid it. the body. In some ways, the breath is like a How do you deal with the pain of in- miniature universe,involved in a process of juries? expansion and contraction, stretching and Injuries in yoga generally come from relaxation. Once you learn how to use the one of two sources: greed or inattention, breath in the body, you can relax into a pos- and sometimes a combination of both. The ture, acclimatize, adjust – and come out of problem with injuries is that we tend to look the asana fresh and relaxed. at them as failures, not as opportunities to One of the techniques you’re well learn. An injury is no tragedy, it simply known for is “stretching in the nerves.” Thompson Ben Photoby: means that your edge moves way back. Just What does that mean? Can you give us Joel Kramer “plays the edge” in Ganda follow your edge and listen to the feedback an example? Bherundasana (above) and Eka Pada of pain. It teaches you patience! Pain, then, Ordinarily, when we’re stretching, we’re Rajakapotasana IV (right). is one way our yoga is “sabotaged.” reaching for an elongation in the muscula- on the edges of one’s limits. It’s a matter of What are some of our other resistances ture. But there’s another kind of stretching, learning to distinguish between intensity to doing Hatha Yoga? neural stretching, that doesn’t require great and pain. The maximum extension of the There is the basic resistance to getting extension or flexibility. It involves using the muscle is right before pain, on the edge of down on the rug in the morning. And there muscles to move through the nervous sys- pain. I call this the final edge. Of course, is also the resistance to letting go of certain tem, actually channeling energy in a certain there are also other subtler edges. For ex- aspects of one’s life that one is attached to. direction through the body. ample, a more immediate edge is where I mentioned that growth involves the shat- For example try this: Extend one arm the body meets its first resistance. Let’s say tering of images. This can he frightening, parallel to the floor. Focus your attention I’m stretching in Forward Bend, and I don’t because the shattering of images releases initially into the upper part of the chest and feel much, until I suddenly feel a little tug in an energy that threatens to move you out into the shoulder and then begin to move it the small of my back. That little catch is an of control. All of a sudden, you don’t quite slowly out along the arm. Sort of squeezing edge. I can bypass it immediately, or I can know who you are, or what you’re going to the the bicep and the back tricep and locking stop there and breathe until it goes away, and do. By its very nature, yoga begins to build the elbow, p-u-s-h energy down along the top then move on to the next edge. The process the energy that breaks through inner blocks. of the arm and into the elbow. Keep breath- of moving through postures is playing on the It’s an amusing paradox, because on one lev- ing. Now move the energy into the forearm, subtle feedback of the body, waiting for the el yoga is a control freak’s dream. You can squeezing the muscles of the forearm, using edges to open. achieve control over the body, and even, to the wrist as a focus, continuing that move- As you might guess, an edge can move. It some extent, over thought and emotion. But ment outward and down the arm. Now moves from day to day and from breath to the more you control yourself on that level, move the energy from the wrist into the fin- breath. And it doesn’t always move forward. the more you build energy that pushes you gers of the hand, s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g outward. Sometimes it moves back, which is psycho- out of control on another level. And most of What we’re looking for is almost a feeling of logically hard because the mind becomes us resist going out of control. vibration movingdown the arm, like feeling attached to flexibility and accomplishment. Fundamentally, yoga involves an intricate the whole arm at once Now relax. The ac- But it’s important to listen to your body and dance between control and surrender. At ev- tual movement of the arm in this extension be able to advance or move back with the ery moment in an asana we have a choice: was no more than an inch or an inch and edge. You’re involved in a kind of flirtation, “Should I push, or should I relax? Should a half, but it took real attention to feel that a dance, with the edge. I control, or should I let go?” Most of us go line going. This is what I call stretching into I gather, then, that you don’t advocate the control route (we’re what I call “pushers”) the nerves when you’re using the muscles to pushing through pain in a posture? because it gives us the sense that we’re doing pul1 the energy of the nerves downward and From my point of view, one should never something, going into the musculature and outward. be in pain in Hatha Yoga. Pain is feedback moving the energy there. It’s much harder to This technique doesn’t improve flexibility from the body, and it also shifts your atten- learn to let go, to allow the body’s wisdom to per se, but it does begin to give the body the tion away from what you’re doing. Have you move us (to be what I call “sensualists”). It’s in assimilative capacity to integrate flexibility ever noticed that when you experience pain the balancing of control and surrender, of the through increased neural strength. Working in an asana, your attention is greatly weak- ability to move the body and the ability to let with lines of energy also makes it increas- ened. But people tend to push as far as they go, that yoga really becomes meaningful. ❏ ingly difficult to injure oneself, because in- can, hold it as long as they can stand the juries are usually the result of reaching for pain, and then come out. If, instead, you use Jeanne Malmgren Cameron is a Florida yoga flexibilities that the body is not ready for. the posture to open the body, rather than the teacher and freelance writer in health and fitness. Another Kramer specialty is “playing body to achieve the posture, you will move the edge.” What does that involve? more slowly – but you will be involved in the JoelDiana.com One aspect of yoga is learning how to play real process of yoga. [email protected]

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