420
1 BEFORETHESELECTINVESTIGATIVECOMMITTEE
2 STATEOFWYOMINGHOUSEOFREPRESENTATIVES
3 ------
4 In the matter of the investigation into issues relating to 5 budgetary and administrative activities within the Wyoming Department of Education and the Office of Superintendent of 6 Public Instruction, including issues identified by the Governor's Inquiry Team Report regarding the Wyoming 7 Department of Education dated June 13, 2013 and subsequent reports released or resulting from that inquiry. 8 ------9
10
11 TRANSCRIPTOFHEARINGPROCEEDINGS
12 VOLUMEII DAYSESSION 13 **NONCONFIDENTIAL**
14 PURSUANT TO NOTICE duly given to all
15 parties in interest, this matter came on for hearing
16 on the 7th day of January, 2014, at the approximate
17 hour of 8:00 a.m., at the Wyoming State Capitol
18 Building, Room 302, 123 Capitol Avenue, Cheyenne,
19 Wyoming, before the Select Investigative Committee,
20 with Speaker Tom Lubnau presiding, and Representatives
21 Mark Baker, Gregg Blikre, Kermit Brown, Cathy Connolly,
22 Kathy Davison, Mike Greear, Michael Madden, Glenn Moniz,
23 John Patton, Ruth Petroff, Tim Stubson, Mary Throne and
24 Dan Zwonitzer in attendance.
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 421
1 APPEARANCES
2 Special Counsel: MR. BRUCE SALZBURG Special Counsel 3 CROWELL&MORINGLLP 205 Storey Boulevard, Suite 120 4 Cheyenne,Wyoming82009
5 MR.ROBERTC.JAROSH MR.KHALELENHART 6 SpecialCounsel HIRSTAPPLEGATE,LLP 7 1720CareyAvenue Suite 400 8 Cheyenne,Wyoming82001
9 I N D E X PAGE 10
11 WITNESSES:
12 SHERYL LAIN Examination-Mr.Lenhart 423 13 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE 14 RepresentativeMadden 468 Representative Zwonitzer 471, 479, 513 15 RepresentativePatton 473,494 RepresentativeConnolly 474,505 16 RepresentativeThrone 477,510 RepresentativeBaker 480,493 17 SpeakerLubnau 484,497,507,575 RepresentativeBlikre 487 18 RepresentativeWinters 490 RepresentativePetroff 492 19 RepresentativeGreear 497,498
20
21
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 422
1 INDEX(CONTINUED) PAGE 2 TRENTCARROLL 3 Examination-Mr.Jarosh 518
4 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE Representative Zwonitzer 554, 563, 575 5 RepresentativeStubson 556 RepresentativeBrown 563,565,572 6 SpeakerLubnau 565,580 RepresentativeWinters 567 7 RepresentativeMoniz 568 RepresentativeThrone 569,574,578 8 RepresentativeMadden 570
9 GREGORYWILLIAMHANSEN Examination-Mr.Jarosh 600 10 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE 11 SpeakerLubnau 614,616 RepresentativeBrown 615 12 RepresentativeMadden 616 RepresentativeZwonitzer 620 13 BARBARADIANNEBAILEY 14 Examination-Mr.Jarosh 622
15 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE RepresentativeBaker 643,678 16 RepresentativeMadden 645 RepresentativeZwonitzer 666 17 RepresentativeConnolly 669 RepresentativeThrone 670 18 SpeakerLubnau 671,679 RepresentativeBrown 675 19
20 ***(Pages 578 through 582 are confidential and bound and sealed in a separate transcript) 21
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 423
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 (Hearing proceedings reconvened
3 8:00 a.m., January 7, 2014.)
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: It's eight o'clock. We're
5 back in session. Counsel, call your next witness.
6 MR. LENHART: Counsel calls Sheryl Lain.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Miss Lain, we started this
8 all last night. You're still under oath, and those
9 advisories still apply. Is that okay?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Representative
13 Patton.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Go ahead, Counsel.
15 SHERYLLAIN,
16 called for examination by the Select Investigative
17 Committee, being first duly sworn, on her oath testified as
18 follows:
19 EXAMINATION
20 Q. (BY MR. LENHART) Is it on?
21 A. I think it is.
22 Q. Good morning, Miss Lain.
23 A. Good morning, Mr. Lenhart.
24 Q. Before we get started, I know we went over some
25 of these with some of the other witnesses yesterday, and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 424
1 it's probably worthwhile to go over a couple guidelines,
2 especially with the court reporter here.
3 As you can see, we have a court reporter taking
4 down all of our testimony, so it's important that you and I
5 don't talk over each other. If you have -- especially for
6 yes or no questions, you know, usually in conversation we
7 use phrases like uh-huh or huh-uh. That doesn't show up
8 very well in the record. So I'd ask that you please try to
9 use yes or no.
10 Additionally, nods of the head aren't going to
11 show up. So I ask that you try to respond verbally.
12 And lastly, if there's a question I ask that you
13 don't understand, please let me know. I'll try and
14 rephrase it so that you can understand it.
15 The first question is an easy one. Could you
16 please state your name for the record.
17 A. I'm Sheryl Lain.
18 Q. And where are you employed, Miss Lain?
19 A. I'm employed by the Office of the Superintendent
20 of Public Instruction for the state government in Wyoming.
21 Q. And what's your title with the Office of the
22 Superintendent?
23 A. My title is instructional leader.
24 Q. What did you do before you were at the Office of
25 the Superintendent?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 425
1 A. Directly before I worked for Laramie County
2 School District Number 1 as a special education
3 instructional facilitator, and I don't think we have time
4 to go through my 50 -- almost 50 years in education, but
5 I've been in Laramie 1, I've been in Fremont working and
6 teaching since 1968.
7 Q. And I understand -- you may have included this in
8 your time at the Office of the Superintendent -- you were
9 also a Department of Education employee at one point; is
10 that right?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. And when was that?
13 A. From 2011 through January 2013.
14 Q. What was your title at that time?
15 A. Instructional leader.
16 Q. Would you give us a summary of your educational
17 background? By that I mean your own education.
18 A. I'm a graduate of the University of Wyoming with
19 a BA in English, journalism and Spanish. I have a master's
20 from the University of Wyoming in curriculum instruction,
21 and I have my reading endorsement, which is over and beyond
22 the master's.
23 Q. And you briefly alluded to it, but could you give
24 us a little bit of a summary of your work background as an
25 educator?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 426
1 A. Well, I began teaching English in -- at Wind
2 River High School in 1968, and aside from a year or two off
3 with raising children, having babies and so on, I've taught
4 until about, I'd say, the early '90s, at which time I
5 continued teaching but started to wear multiple hats.
6 One of the hats was to be the director of the
7 Wyoming Writing Project, which is affiliated with the
8 National Writing Project. This is what happens I think in
9 Wyoming. We wear multiple hats to get jobs done.
10 I was also a part of Judy Catchpole's core that
11 developed the first rollout of state standards, and I
12 retired from Laramie 1 as a curriculum person in charge of
13 literacy or language arts in '99.
14 After that time, began receiving a lot of
15 requests to go out around the state. I worked in every
16 single school, almost every school, but every district in
17 the state of Wyoming doing professional development at
18 people's requests. And I've been very honored with that
19 because wherever we would go, wherever I would go, common
20 sense prevailed and scores went up.
21 For instance, Star Valley High School has the
22 highest reading scores in the state, and I can't claim I do
23 it, but you just bring your best practice, and really good
24 teachers take it from there.
25 I don't know, three or four of the buildings
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 427
1 where I worked have become Blue Ribbon schools. So that's
2 been very rewarding. I've enjoyed it a lot.
3 And then my husband's health came to be that it
4 was important for me to travel less, and I took a job at
5 the -- at Carey Junior High as an instructional
6 facilitator. The principal in charge of school improvement
7 there was Cindy Hill, and that school experienced a serious
8 turnaround from zero percent proficient in special ed to, I
9 don't know, 35 or 40. Very brief period of time.
10 And again, it's not a magic wand. We have a very
11 high-performing school district, and the superintendent
12 says it's just gut-busting work and really a lot of savvy
13 about how kids learn, and it's been, I think, important to
14 bring that kind of expertise to our teachers.
15 I don't want to ramble. So --
16 Q. All right.
17 A. -- tell me if that's sufficient.
18 Q. That is. As instructional leader at the Office
19 of the Superintendent, what are your job duties?
20 A. In the Office of the Superintendent, multiple
21 duties, all legislated. So right at the moment, I'm
22 working on the five regional workshops that the statute --
23 up to five that the statute says is what we can do. We can
24 roll out a social studies conference or workshop this
25 spring in conjunction with a variety of folks, and it's
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 428
1 very exciting, lots of work to lay that out. And then
2 other workshops that are in the works. Teacher of the
3 year. And this teacher of the year rollout, it's precious
4 to me about teachers.
5 I think the heart of schools is the teaching and
6 the learning between a teacher and a student and then the
7 parents and community support. So we added some
8 encouragement and some TLC so that all districts really
9 could take advantage of the teacher of the year this year
10 and a lot of other work involved with maintaining the
11 office and, of course, this investigation, so...
12 Q. What were your duties in that role when you were
13 at the Department of Education?
14 A. The Department of Education I was primarily there
15 to fulfill one of the four missions of Cindy, which was
16 improve instruction.
17 Q. Let's talk about the Wyoming reading program.
18 First of all, it's Wyoming Read, not Wyoming Reading
19 program?
20 A. It is. Thank you for correcting it.
21 Q. Did you develop the Wyoming Read program?
22 A. Well, it began with Bob Krisko. I think that was
23 mentioned yesterday. Dr. Robert Krisko was the assistant
24 superintendent in Carbon Number 2, which is located
25 Saratoga, Encampment, so on. And Bob is a longtime
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 429
1 educator. His preference in, he told me, in trying to
2 enhance student performance was to train teachers. He had
3 purchased a program which was scholastic, if my memory
4 serves, a program where there's a combination of materials
5 and scripts for teachers and so forth. He had purchased
6 those -- he'd purchase those programs in language arts.
7 The scholastic is a commercial program, but he wanted
8 something more.
9 He had enough expertise to know about such
10 professional developments as Reading Recovery, CLIP, AR.
11 These are all permutations of one of the most premier
12 reading gurus really ever, whose name is Marie Clay, and
13 again, it's not a program. It's a professional
14 development. But Marie Clay believes that kids need to
15 learn to read when they struggle in an intensive,
16 one-on-one bonding relationship around a book that the
17 child picks from a library. You can see then it's not a
18 program as we get it in education and we don't buy it.
19 So Krisko asked for something like that. He'd
20 actually taken his teachers to Salt Lake City to look at
21 Reading Recovery, and it's a fairly pricey training. And
22 he couldn't bring that to Carbon Number 2. So he asked me
23 is there anything similar that we get together and with my
24 staff create, and we did.
25 I was a secondary teacher before being a language
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 430
1 arts coordinator in Laramie 1 where I did K through 12, and
2 I'm humbled because it's complicated to be a teacher, and I
3 didn't want to say, well, you know, unilaterally I'll dream
4 up something, but -- so I worked with a variety of folks
5 who had background in Reading Recovery work. It comes in
6 other names. CLIP is one of them. So I asked for input
7 from Joan Brummond, who was a teacher of the year, national
8 teacher of the year president. Joan has been a 50-year
9 veteran teacher of first graders and very highly trained.
10 And I asked Shan Anderson, who also is a reading
11 expert. In this district she served as a one-on-one tutor
12 in CLIP for many years, and though she's back in the
13 classroom this year loving it.
14 And the third person I asked was Tori Lesher,
15 Victoria Lesher, whose names you're getting familiar with
16 here, people that I knew had both this reading expertise
17 but, more importantly in my mind, they had been trained in
18 the National Writing Project model as far back as 1999,
19 which is a model that the federal government funded based
20 on the idea that teachers want to have professional
21 development from fellow teachers who are trained to present
22 and know how to facilitate, know how to stand up and not
23 only teach somebody the content, but to model it in the way
24 they even work with the teachers.
25 And so those three amongst about a dozen or two
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 431
1 dozen others were a cadre of what we call TCs, teacher
2 consultants, and I felt like it was important because
3 teachers to be -- to go through PD, to come on weekends, to
4 do whatever teachers do to grow themselves, they need the
5 very best that someone with enough -- that's asking
6 teachers to do that in all humility, they should have the
7 best. And so those folks helped, long story short, the
8 district and me to create this -- this professional
9 development.
10 Q. Okay. You said that was while you were at Carbon
11 District 2, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When did this happen? When did you develop
14 Wyoming Read?
15 A. Oh, I think it was maybe in something like -- and
16 years -- the years are not going to come easily to me, but
17 it would be something like 2002 -- 2002 or 2003, early on.
18 Q. I'd like to look at the sort of the development
19 process in a little more detail. When you said that you
20 and Joan Brummond, Shan Anderson and Tori Lesher developed
21 this, what actually did that entail?
22 A. Conversation, relying upon our research.
23 Everything we did with the Wyoming Writing Project had to
24 be founded on research, what did the best partitioners say.
25 This was a chance for me to study deeply the work of Marie
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 432
1 Clay, and I did. The professional journals are rife with
2 research-based programs or investigations, and so studying
3 is important. Relied upon the research, relied upon our
4 experience.
5 So I felt that a one on one with first graders,
6 just imagine the growth of a high school student if he had
7 an opportunity to take all of his background knowledge from
8 all the years in school and three or four or five or six
9 years behind still, imagine the speed and alacrity of their
10 picking up their reading, and those stories abound.
11 So I'm not answering your question directly.
12 What did it entail is a tremendous amount of research,
13 common sense. The work behind the National Reading Panel,
14 which was a biggie at that time, it's sort of fallen out of
15 favor in the political world, but it was big during George
16 W. Bush's time. This National Reading Panel that said what
17 reading is composed of is phonemic awareness, phonics,
18 vocabulary and fluency so that the speed that you can read,
19 not without expression, but when reading moves smoothly the
20 kid is liable to comprehend it better, and then the last of
21 these pillars was comprehension.
22 So we embedded those portions in this sort of
23 protocol, and that's really when you gather up -- so this
24 is what we did is we worked together through research and
25 common sense and practice and experience to take and apply
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 433
1 to that to kids who desperately needed and had a right to
2 learn to read in our schools.
3 So, for instance, it seems almost commonsensical,
4 you buddy up with a student shoulder to shoulder, you have
5 a book, you ask a kid, "We left off here yesterday, do you
6 remember what happened?" It's very much like side-by-side
7 reading.
8 They'll tell you, "Can you read a little bit here
9 for me, can you read it again for a little more speed? If
10 I were you, I would pause here and here, try that again,"
11 takes a minute or so and you move on. "You know, the word
12 laugh is in here, l-a-u-g-h," write it on a whiteboard.
13 "Isn't that crazy? Why would laugh be here?" We have odd
14 uses in our language of that g-h sound, maybe give them a
15 few examples. Move right on to the word is derisively
16 here. Derisively. In the sentence it says, "Do you like
17 my hair?" And my friend says, derisively, "Oh, you look
18 great," kind of being snide, and move on to today let's
19 focus on what do we see in our heads when we read. That's
20 called visualizing.
21 And so let's take it away, and they began to read
22 then the book they've picked and because the teachers or
23 para or tutors had some training knows that book not only
24 is what the kid wants to read, but the kid can read it with
25 support and so on.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 434
1 The protocol is 30 minutes. We decided based
2 upon the research 30 minutes is about all a kid could hack
3 at that intensity. They're excited to come back the next
4 day, and it's for 50 lessons. We did that just for
5 practical reasons.
6 So you're asking how did we create it? Out of
7 research, common sense, personal and practical experience
8 from real masters and applying the National Reading Panel's
9 pillars, if you will, so that more or less of each of these
10 components could be in the recipe depending on that moment
11 with the kids. And kids tend to grow in 50 lessons between
12 a year and a half to four years with this kind of
13 attention. So did I answer it long enough?
14 Q. Of these three people that worked with you, did
15 you have any breakdown of goals when you were putting
16 together this program? For example, was there something
17 that Joan Brummond was in charge with or had more expertise
18 on?
19 A. Joan is a first-grade teacher, and there's a
20 great big difference between those at-risk kids that are 16
21 that I would know and the first graders. So whenever --
22 what the answer to that is whatever the professional
23 development required, that's the one of us who could then
24 deliver it. Some of us were retired, so we could.
25 Q. And so are you saying that you broke it down by
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 435
1 your own areas of expertise or were there more defined
2 goals in the group than that?
3 A. Areas of expertise, grade levels more than
4 anything.
5 Q. Earlier you referenced a few other programs that
6 it sounds like you were drawing upon, Reading Recovery, you
7 mentioned CLIP, I think AR might have been one of them.
8 What was Reading Recovery?
9 A. Well, Reading Recovery is an intervention for
10 struggling first graders based upon the research of Marie
11 Clay.
12 Q. And what about CLIP?
13 A. CLIP is the same.
14 Q. Also for first graders?
15 A. That to my knowledge, struggling first graders do
16 not have an IDP yet.
17 Q. And what's AR?
18 A. I think that it's an acronym for accelerated
19 reading. It's a training that happened out of Greeley,
20 University of Northern Colorado, and I don't know if it's
21 restricted to first or whatever grade.
22 Q. Was there any other source material that you drew
23 upon in putting together the Wyoming reading program?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What was that?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 436
1 A. There are lots of studies about one to one. A
2 really famous program that was on the National Diffusion
3 Network, for example, is a program called HOSTS, and in
4 this case, under the supervision of a certified teacher,
5 volunteers in the community come in and pick up a student
6 one on one, and it had very high effect.
7 And the research behind it was really good
8 because prior to what work -- stock work there was
9 something called the National Diffusion Network, the HOSTS,
10 H-O-S-T-S, is an acronym for something, was one of their
11 programs and they're deeply researched, and it wasn't
12 restricted to any particular grade level. And there are
13 lots of other studies like that.
14 Connie Juel did a famous study where one-to-one
15 tutoring was helping -- I think this is her study. There
16 were two, Connie Juel's study and then the study out of
17 Ohio State University where college football players who
18 were remedial readers were trained briefly as paras and
19 then went out in local Title I schools to work with kids of
20 all ages one on one, and both groups grew. So those kinds
21 of studies.
22 Q. Okay. You mentioned that one to one. What other
23 source material did you draw upon other than what we've
24 talked about already?
25 A. You know, myriad. I have a bibliography that's
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 437
1 about three pages long, so I'd be happy for you to see it.
2 Q. How did you decide upon the source material that
3 you were going to use?
4 A. Well, I -- as a part of the National Writing
5 Project, my directorship meant I needed to read every
6 article that came out in our domain. So professional
7 organizations such as the International Reading Association
8 puts out a monthly, bimonthly, quarterly research journals.
9 There's a Wyoming affiliation to the International Reading
10 Association of professional research sharing.
11 The other one that I belong to is National
12 Council of Teachers of English, and there's again a local
13 affiliation in Wyoming for that, and monthly journals that
14 range from primary journals all the way up through the
15 English journal for secondary, and then countless other
16 studies from CELs, which are university centers, all kinds
17 of studies.
18 It was my job to be very well apprised. I'm --
19 this is very typical of a teacher. I would never say I did
20 it, but I am a very renowned reading expert. I write. I
21 published books, a book. I've been on a national and
22 international speaking circuit which is based upon research
23 called the Bureau of Educational Research, and so that
24 doesn't -- to me that doesn't give me full credential.
25 It's the years of practice and study. And this is my
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 438
1 domain. I need to know it.
2 AndwhenIgooutandI'mcalledouttowork,I
3 need to be firmly and fully apprised of what happened, is
4 it going on in my professional area, and so I do. There
5 are lots of books published all the time by Heinemann and
6 Steinhouse, a myriad, and I own them all. My library at
7 home in the garage is 4 or 5,000 volumes. I read them.
8 That's what I do. And so I just need -- I think that's
9 enough. I feel uncomfortable enough bragging about it.
10 Q. Well, it sounds like what you're saying is you
11 essentially read the literature and then decided what --
12 what your favorites were? Again, what's the step between
13 your having read the literature and narrowing down the
14 programs to use?
15 A. I'm not sure how to answer that except to tell
16 you that in my field all the literature points to really
17 good common practice. So about writing. We don't argue
18 much about it. Writing process is a way to go. We use
19 those protocols. Likewise with reading. It needs to be a
20 very full array of tools in your tool kit when you're
21 teaching kids who are struggling, and you need them all.
22 So I wouldn't think of it as like exclusive of
23 what you said doesn't agree. I would say that a balanced
24 scholar wants to see what everyone says and sees the
25 measure of truth in all of them. Because you know why?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 439
1 The kids are too precious and varied to avoid it. They all
2 need everything you can get.
3 Q. Okay. So once you've determined what you're
4 going to use as far as the source material goes, how did
5 you then draw on it to create this program?
6 A. I -- okay. How did I draw on how to do sort of
7 professional development about this? Because it's not a
8 program. It is a protocol and a bag of tricks, if you
9 will, and knowledge and background to apply to a student
10 who presents himself to you in his own glorious diversity,
11 and I need to unlock whatever it is that's tangling them
12 up. That is the biggest answer.
13 What we do in a protocol in a day would vary in
14 terms of numbers of minutes. But if you and you and you
15 were going to pick up some kids and work with them, as a
16 superintendent, I would want to know that there was some
17 compatibility with what you were doing, and so you would be
18 able to walk in and if you had a little experience, you
19 could tell, oh, this person is doing phonics with this
20 child right here, and by the way, the words are straight
21 out of the book the child brought because the teacher knows
22 enough about phonics to use the application of it.
23 So the pieces of the recipe, if you will, like in
24 bread would all make bread. So it's all the components of
25 a reading that go into a protocol. It's a fairly common --
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 440
1 commonly used protocol. So that would mean that you could
2 see there was some consistency.
3 Q. Okay. Maybe I didn't ask that the most clearly.
4 For example, you said you drew upon the Reading Recovery
5 Program. When you said you drew upon it, what did you mean
6 by "draw upon"? How did you then use the Reading Recovery
7 in your own protocol?
8 A. Okay. Good. Marie Clay says that for all
9 readers on the planet of any age there are really three
10 cueing systems you use. It sounds technical, but really
11 think about it a minute and you do it. And you do it at
12 the speed of light and you do it simultaneously, and a
13 child who is missing one of those big circles can't read
14 very well.
15 One of the big circles is phonics and sight.
16 Does he know how a word sounds? Does he know how a word
17 looks? Marie said that needs to be there, but to hammer a
18 child who is not very good at that in memorizing phonics
19 rules isn't really the way to go. So hold that one in mind
20 while you also hold in mind that a kid needs to be able to
21 figure out is that how we actually say things in English,
22 because if you can rely on how they're used to hearing
23 English work, they can then use their -- apply it to their
24 graphic and sight words and get more meaning.
25 And the third circle is comprehending so that if
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 441
1 you're reading along and you can anticipate what the word
2 will be, because you have comprehended so far, you can
3 apply that with this one and this one, and you can become a
4 reader. That is her fundamental research idea and says
5 that those three things required of a student is actually
6 reading meaningful text to apply all three of them at the
7 same time.
8 It may sound technical, but I think that it takes
9 really everything we know about reading and puts it into
10 something that's a visual that we can see, so there are
11 these three circles. It's what reading is composed of.
12 Did I answer that or should I rephrase?
13 Q. What I'm trying to figure out is so you've
14 identified the Reading Recovery Program. Did you then
15 photocopy this book or copy and paste sections of text into
16 your program or how did you then -- or your protocol, how
17 did you then take that and incorporate it into what you
18 were doing? Not so much the technical aspect of what
19 Reading Recovery is, but how did you take this prior
20 program and make it your own?
21 A. Marie Clay wrote books that you buy at Barnes &
22 Noble to teach you how to do this. It's --
23 Q. Who owns the Wyoming Read protocol?
24 A. Nobody. It's free on the Web, was free on the
25 Wyoming Department of Education Web page. I've given it
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 442
1 away free everywhere. Nobody owns it.
2 Q. Do you control its use?
3 A. No. Right now it's going on beyond my knowledge
4 really. I heard about it and I got -- somebody called me
5 in Niobrara County, and everywhere people, including at
6 Carbon Number 2, Natrona County, Laramie 1, Goshen County,
7 they're all doing their own WYR training and so on because
8 you see, there aren't any materials to buy. You can access
9 helpful posters to hang up and so forth free.
10 Q. Okay. In your exhibit notebook in front of you
11 there is a section titled "Sheryl Lain." If you could turn
12 to Exhibit 1 in that section. Have you found it?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. The interagency agreement?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Now, on page 2 near the top there's a Subsection
17 D.
18 A. Got it.
19 Q. The title on that is W-Y-R, "WYR." That
20 subsection, if you follow along, says, "WYR is a reading
21 instructional program developed by Sheryl Lain and used by
22 her permission as an instructional intervention tool for
23 grades 2 through 8." What I'm curious about is that phrase
24 where it says "used by her permission." Could you explain
25 that?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 443
1 A. Well, when John showed that to me, I took it and
2 I understood it to mean that he needed for legal purposes
3 to say this is okay, right, for public use, and so I
4 thought it was just a legal piece. Do I need to get
5 further clarification on what that means? I don't know.
6 It in no way means that I own it, that it's in some way
7 licensed, in some way proprietary.
8 Q. So how did the Department of Education become
9 authorized to use the Wyoming Read protocol?
10 A. Well, because anybody can. The word
11 "authorized," I don't see how it fits here. Anybody can
12 apply these -- this research to their own work.
13 Q. And if you could flip to I guess it is the fourth
14 page in there, the signature page. And that top signature,
15 is that yours?
16 A. It is.
17 Q. And if you look then two more pages in it, turn
18 over to the next page, I'm sorry, which says Attachment A
19 to the Memorandum of Understanding, and Subsection 6, which
20 says, "District," meaning Fremont School District Number
21 38, "will not create nor implement new teaching initiatives
22 during the term hereof that conflict with the purposes of
23 MOU." Do you have any idea what that means?
24 A. I do. I believe it means that we are initiative
25 laden in schools. Every time there's a change in
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 444
1 leadership, every time there's a change in personality,
2 another program, another initiative, another training,
3 something different. During the time, during these few
4 months that we happened to be there, the desire was to
5 focus and concentrate and not add more on the plates of
6 teachers and on time, which is very finite in school. You
7 have about five or five and a half hours a day with
8 students, you know, in their core work, and there's just
9 not enough time to add on more. And so that was there as a
10 sort of way to focus and protect time and energy of
11 students and teachers.
12 It's recommended to do that by countless people,
13 let alone common sense, that could we try an initiative for
14 the course of three years, people get better at it every
15 year, could we let this thing, all the unintended
16 consequences of anything filter out and adjust. Could we
17 do that when we're dealing with human beings here before we
18 slam around some new things to learn and do? I don't think
19 that it was necessarily terribly binding in this case.
20 Q. Was there a copyright on the Wyoming Read
21 program?
22 A. No.
23 Q. I think you mentioned this before. Is Wyoming
24 Read still being used anywhere?
25 A. Yes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 445
1 Q. Okay. Where is that?
2 A. Well, probably wherever there's been training
3 whether it's -- it's a training. So once you leave -- once
4 they get a grip on how to do it, who knows where all it is.
5 Is there anybody in Laramie 1 still doing WYR like
6 individually with kids to tutor here and there? Yes. WYR
7 is going on formally, so a lot of informal WYR. It was in,
8 I don't know, 16 or 18 or 20, I don't know, school
9 improvement plans from districts that turned in their
10 school improvement plans.
11 People want to have a common sense, inexpensive,
12 logical research sort of founded evidence based -- because
13 evidence says do they grow? They want something like that
14 formally, which means the district sanctions it and they
15 have WYR trainers of their own, or informally, like I'm
16 still going to tutor you because you can't read and I don't
17 want you to go to jail. It's all over.
18 But Niobrara County, Natrona County has probably
19 4 or 500 teachers trained in WYR. They trained themselves.
20 Goshen trains themselves. Niobrara is receiving some
21 training from a gal from Torrington. And I don't know. I
22 think it's still happening everywhere little bits, and I
23 know Powell was using WYR for a while. Whether they call
24 it or not is irrelevant to me. Teachers give. They don't
25 take. And they want to give to kids. That's what drives
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 446
1 them is to see a kid reads. It's wonderful.
2 So I don't know where all it is once it's
3 informally at all. I hope it's everywhere.
4 Q. And you just mentioned that WYR is research
5 based, and that leads into my next area of questioning.
6 What research did Wyoming Read rely upon?
7 A. Well, it relied upon the research of reading
8 experts that have gathered knowledge over the last hundred
9 years about how reading happens and really culminated in a
10 group of educators, Marie Clay, Ken Goodman from Arizona, a
11 whole host of folks. There was some kind of renaissance
12 that was happening at the University of Wisconsin I think
13 where all those guys got their doctorates.
14 So I would say it's an accumulation of a hundred
15 years of knowledge about how it is that kids learn to read,
16 how does it happen, from surveying and watching and reading
17 research and practicing and trying.
18 So besides Marie Clay and Connie Juel and the
19 Ohio State University study and bookfuls of research about
20 it, it's really where we are now in the world of literacy
21 on how kids learn to read.
22 Q. Was any of the research that you just referenced
23 done specific to the Wyoming Read program --
24 A. No.
25 Q. -- or protocol?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 447
1 A. No. To do that would take white-coat research,
2 the kind of things that you would have in a lab situation
3 and that we were very busy not being theoretical at all,
4 though very firmly grounded on solid thinking, but instead
5 to be practical, and WYR was never -- nobody had to use it.
6 So it came about because of just knowledge about it going
7 on all over and other people wanting to know, okay, and
8 they'll say to you it's just common sense.
9 Q. So when you talk about the research that was done
10 by Marie Clay and these other researchers, have you looked
11 at that research data yourself?
12 A. Have I looked at it?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. Yes, I've read the books.
15 Q. And I'm next going to go through a few specific
16 questions about that research.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Did that research employ systematic empirical
19 methods drawn on observation or experiment?
20 A. The work of Marie Clay is research based,
21 scientifically research based. Ohio State University
22 houses a license for it, and it is. Articles that are
23 published in research journals are juried, and there is
24 research. They use a combination of qualitative and
25 quantitative research.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 448
1 So yes, these are research-based pieces in the
2 theoretical, experiment, scientific method type of
3 research.
4 Q. Are you familiar enough with that research to
5 explain how it was systematic, used empirical methods?
6 A. I'm not a researcher, but I know that what we use
7 is we use statistics. We do control groups. You analyze
8 the results over time, use a combination of logs and
9 observation film and scores, test scores, to see what
10 happened pre and post. All of those pieces are part of
11 your -- a general knowledge of theoretical research, though
12 I'm not a researcher in that way.
13 Q. You mentioned that these studies are accepted in
14 peer-reviewed journals?
15 A. Some, uh-hum. The ones I'm reading are all in
16 peer-reviewed journals. Does that mean they are all where
17 you're thinking here about that scientific white-coat lab
18 research? That I don't know for sure. But when -- they're
19 not -- articles tend to not be accepted unless there's
20 research behind them, and then they're juried by peers,
21 multiple readers.
22 Q. I believe in some of your previous statements you
23 also described this protocol as evidence based. First of
24 all, do you see a distinction between research based and
25 evidence based?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 449
1 A. The way that I see it is that research is really
2 based upon all the reading you can possibly do in the
3 literature and looking at studies and looking at meta
4 analyses of other people's studies. So a meta analysis,
5 for instance, is Richard Allington's work and others.
6 There are many others. So he studied 250 other studies and
7 gives you the results of those in a way that then a
8 practitioner like I am is better able to digest it. Tell
9 me your question again because I think I got off.
10 Q. I asked what your distinction was between
11 research and --
12 A. So that to me is researched. So if I get ready
13 to write a doctorate -- I never had time to. But if I got
14 ready to write a doctorate, I'd read all the literature out
15 there that I could pertaining to my subject area of my
16 doctorate, and that's one form of research.
17 And another form is evidence. So if you have
18 evidence through -- it varies. The theoretical research
19 would be one form of evidence. Another form of evidence is
20 you pre and post test the students and they grow or don't
21 grow, you have evidence. And so in my mind, that's how I'm
22 distinguishing between research and evidence.
23 Q. Okay. Well, looking at the evidence-based
24 component, how was the Wyoming Read protocol evidence
25 based?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 450
1 A. When we started it?
2 Q. Sure.
3 A. Or when we watched the progress of students?
4 Q. Let's take them one at a time. Let's go with
5 when you started it.
6 A. When we started it, we had to rely upon the
7 research, the reading, other people's studies. But when we
8 started it, we pretested and post-tested students and
9 watched, did a midterm to see what kind growth we had here,
10 not just in reading, but in writing because writing is a
11 piece of WYR.
12 Q. Okay. And then I guess by the time the Wyoming
13 Read protocol was used at Fremont 38, how was it evidence
14 based?
15 A. Well, we started in about 2002 or '3, and
16 students were growing anywhere from 1.5 years to four
17 years. We had some kids score -- grow six years. It is
18 fairly unusual, but some high school kids will do that in
19 alternative schools. They will be sixth-grade readers, and
20 they'll be twelfth-grade readers when they're done with 50
21 lessons. They didn't know you were supposed to do that.
22 You're supposed to do that?
23 "Oh, I never made a picture in my head ever. I
24 was just going 'la la la la la la.'" So the evidence
25 showed that immediately when Bob Krisko said let's try
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 451
1 this, the kids grew, and everybody said wow, that's good.
2 Q. Did you keep records of those pre and post-tests?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Do you still have those?
5 A. There are some, not very systematically. I've
6 kept enough for just in my files, but . . . I have some in
7 my computer like culminating scores where we were and so
8 forth. We probably round up. I don't think we -- there
9 have been hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
10 of kids WYRed. So I don't think we could get them all.
11 But I'm sure we could show you some if you'd like me to
12 bring some tomorrow.
13 Q. When you were evaluating these scores, did you
14 use a control group?
15 A. No. That's scientific research based and that's
16 lab coat theoretical method.
17 Q. So this research evidence based you have just
18 been talking about, that wouldn't be what you would
19 consider scientific research based?
20 A. What I just described to you just this moment was
21 scientific research.
22 Q. Okay. So maybe I asked that poorly. What you
23 described about your pre and post-testing and the records
24 you kept there, that wouldn't be scientific, then.
25 A. Not if your definition of it or the world's
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 452
1 definition of it is a control group. But the evidence
2 of -- by the way, the assessment we began to use is called
3 Jerry Johns, it's in the public domain. You can buy it at
4 Barnes & Nobel as well. There are eight of these kinds of
5 informal reading inventories they're called, and that's
6 what we used.
7 We felt like that teachers needed or tutors or
8 paras, let alone the students and their parents, needed to
9 see that they made growth. So we have used this informal
10 reading inventory to show growth pre and post.
11 Q. I guess you mentioned the Jerry Johns assessment.
12 A. That's one of them. There are several valid and
13 reliable informal reading inventories. One is Jerry Johns,
14 and one is the Qualitative Reading Inventory, QRI. I think
15 that's the one that's been used in Torrington.
16 Q. Which of these programs or these assessment
17 methods are you aware of being used for the WYR program?
18 A. Both of those for sure. But I'm not keeping in
19 tabs, in touch with WYR wherever it is and whatever is
20 happening. For instance, the school may decide to use
21 their math scores and pre and post. They may decide to
22 only use their reading running records, which is a kid
23 reads to you and you do a quick notation of the accuracy of
24 how many words they get right. So there is no
25 specification for WYR of what pre and post to use. There
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 453
1 just needs to be one. Probably if you're going to invest
2 this kind of attention on a student, you'd want to know
3 that you grew that student.
4 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any way to compare
5 between these assessment methods? For example, this sort
6 of growth on the was it Jerry Johns would equate to this
7 sort of growth on QRI maps or --
8 A. I'm going to say what I think. I think they
9 would be comparable. Each gives slightly different and
10 fuller information. Like one assessment might have the
11 fluency component like where you can time a student on how
12 fast he got through the text, and that might be something
13 that district wants to know, and so they might have an
14 assessment that has a timer with it, a stop watch.
15 But they're all -- they're going to yield similar
16 results, generally speaking. They're going to show that if
17 you use the same pre and post-assessment within the
18 parameters of that assessment, they're going to show
19 whether a student gained or didn't gain. It wouldn't -- it
20 wouldn't be fair to a student to use apples and oranges to
21 pre one type of assessment and post it's another.
22 Q. You've said before, not in this hearing, but some
23 of your statements that the WYR program was vertically
24 aligned. Does that sound familiar to you?
25 A. That term is familiar.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 454
1 Q. First of all, what's your definition of
2 vertically aligned?
3 A. It would vary if you teach math or if you teach
4 something else. What vertical alignment means in the
5 standards world in reading is defined by whatever the
6 standards were. What it signifies in reading to us is that
7 the standards match the grade level, whatever the standard
8 matches that way. And vertical alignment means up and down
9 grades.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. So that in reading, a student in kindergarten
12 reads at a kindergarten level and in first grade reads at
13 the first-grade level, and at twelfth grade reads at the
14 twelfth-grade level, and there's components to that, but
15 essentially that's what the standard is seeking is that the
16 student reads and understands at that grade level that he
17 should or within a band.
18 Q. Okay. How was the WYR protocol vertically
19 aligned?
20 A. Because the students were preassessed, and if you
21 were determined, you're 16 years old, but you're reading at
22 fourth grade, then I'm going to look at fourth-grade
23 materials for you or fifth to try to push you just a little
24 so that when we come to the table with some books for you
25 to pick from that are based upon your interests like
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 455
1 airplanes, that I have as a tutor or a para or a teacher
2 brought books to the table that are in that range, that
3 vertical alignment range, which is a grade level.
4 Q. You've also mentioned that the WYR program was
5 specifically vertically aligned to the 2008 and 2012
6 reading standards?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. Explain how you determined that.
9 A. Well, I know the standards really well. I was on
10 the first standards rollout writing. As I mentioned
11 earlier, I worked for Judy Catchpole in the first standards
12 rollout. I know those 2008 standards and the 1999
13 standards, and they stayed relatively the same all the way.
14 And as a matter of fact, the new Wyoming reading standards
15 and reading, writing, listening and speaking are very
16 similar in their -- in the actual standards. And so I know
17 them, and I know that the fundamental intent of those
18 standards in reading is that a kid will progress grade by
19 grade and become an ever more sophisticated reader and
20 thinker.
21 Q. So what I'm unfamiliar with is just how those
22 standards sort of overlay onto vertical alignment. Are
23 there reading standards based with benchmarks set by the
24 State saying this is what a third-grade reading level is?
25 A. The older standards did not. The new Wyoming
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 456
1 standards recently adopted are more specific. They
2 explicate what band of reading level you should be at per
3 grade level. We didn't used to do that. But from other --
4 from other sources we would know roughly. Like, for
5 instance, I can do a readability like on this material
6 right here. I could type it into my Microsoft Office and
7 it will tell me what grade level this is. I can also do a
8 readability because I could figure out how many syllables
9 there are in a given sentence.
10 It's a technical thing, but it's very universal
11 how difficulty is measured, and essentially the reading
12 standards are skill based to produce a reader at the right
13 grade band by grade, they're vertical as well.
14 Q. Moving towards Fremont 38. Were you aware that
15 WYR was funded --
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, it's -- we have
17 been going an hour. Why don't we take a break now --
18 MR. LENHART: Certainly.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: -- for about 15 minutes,
20 and then we'll come back at quarter after 9:00.
21 MR. LENHART: Great.
22 (Hearing proceedings recessed
23 9:00 a.m. to 9:15 a.m.)
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right. We're back on
25 the record. Counsel, please continue.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 457
1 MR. LENHART: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 Q. (BY MR. LENHART) Ms. Lain, were you aware that
3 WYR was funded using school improvement grant funds in
4 Fremont School District 38?
5 A. I knew. I'm not the school improvement grant
6 expert. Yes. I knew also that the district had
7 unrestricted funding to use, too, and they began with that.
8 Q. Were you aware that the school improvement grant
9 required program seeking funding to be vertically aligned
10 and research and evidence based?
11 A. I am. I wasn't aware that at the time like in a
12 sort of letter-of-the-law way. Though I've read all the
13 law, I knew the purpose and intent was to be sure that
14 interventions were sound.
15 Q. You've mentioned or you've testified earlier
16 today about other schools or districts using Wyoming Read
17 protocol. Did any -- are you aware of any of them using
18 school improvement grant funds to pay for the Wyoming Read
19 protocol?
20 A. I am not. I do know that Laramie County School
21 District Number 2 planned to. I don't know if they did.
22 Q. Who was it that decided that Wyoming Read would
23 be in the program that was sponsored by the Wyoming
24 Department of Education of Fremont 38?
25 A. That's not a yes or no or one-word answer. We
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 458
1 got a call from Fremont 38 in midsummer. They had
2 allegedly the lowest scores in the state, and within a week
3 we got on a plane, went to Arapahoe and met with that --
4 with about 50 individuals, four or five of the school board
5 members, teachers and so forth. And there was conversation
6 about commitment to something that we might be able to
7 help. We were committed because it is -- we are obligated
8 to do it by law. The law says if you receive a call from a
9 district, the rules are that you will respond to your
10 capacity to do so. And so we responded and laid out on the
11 table some options. They explained what they were using as
12 their core reading program.
13 Now, one of the interventions for that might be
14 at a tier sort of III intervention would be something like
15 a one on one that was focusing on comprehension, which is
16 what they were telling me the kids were missing.
17 Q. Okay. So how did Wyoming Read become the program
18 that was used?
19 A. It was offered and the school board, according to
20 the minutes we took -- Joy Mockelmann took the minutes --
21 said, quote, we are a hundred percent behind this. But if
22 it's good for kids, let's go for it. And by the way, many
23 of the staff, several at least of the staff sitting at the
24 table I recognized as having had Reading Recovery training.
25 So they understood the intervention, though they weren't
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 459
1 using it anymore. They understood the notion behind the
2 intervention.
3 Q. The instruction of WYR, so the people providing
4 the instruction in Fremont 38, that was done by independent
5 contractors, correct?
6 A. No, it's not correct.
7 Q. Who was it done by, then?
8 A. The Wyoming Department of Ed used SSoS folks to
9 go out and supervise a group of paraprofessionals hired by
10 the district.
11 Q. Okay. And those coaches were Joan Brummond and
12 Jane Brutsman?
13 A. Dr. Jane Brutsman.
14 Q. Was Tori Lesher also one of those coaches?
15 A. No, not on site and not from the same --
16 Q. On those paraprofessionals that were hired, you
17 were involved in selecting those paraprofessionals,
18 correct?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Who was involved in selecting those?
21 A. The school district. They hired them.
22 Q. Do you know what their process was for selecting
23 them?
24 A. No. I was not there. They interviewed. That I
25 know. I don't know their interview process, but I know
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 460
1 they were interviewed.
2 Q. Do you know how those paraprofessionals were
3 trained?
4 A. I do. They were trained through a class that was
5 held from about 3:30 to 6:30 on Tuesday nights with a day
6 or two of training prior to beginning.
7 Q. And was it Joan Brummond and Jane Brutsman that
8 provided that training?
9 A. On site, yes. There was, however, WEN training
10 going on throughout done by Tori Lesher, Victoria Lesher.
11 Q. Now, you were responsible for the supervision of
12 Joan Brummond, Jane Brutsman and Tori Lesher, correct?
13 A. I don't believe that I am -- that I signed a
14 contract for the first two that you named. They were --
15 I'm not sure of that. I don't have their contracts in
16 front of me. But they worked for SSoS, and the division
17 head would have been Sean Moore, I believe.
18 Q. So Sean --
19 A. They went through an RFP process for selection.
20 Q. So Sean Moore would have been their supervisor?
21 A. I think so.
22 Q. How did -- I know you've mentioned them before,
23 but how did you know Miss Brummond before she was hired?
24 A. I've known their work. I did mention it before.
25 I not only have known their work through the decades I've
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 461
1 worked here in this district and know that Joan was the
2 teacher of the year and so on, but they are teachers who
3 came forward to be trained as teacher consultants on the
4 National Writing Project model in '99, '98, '97.
5 Q. Isn't it true that Miss Brummond and Dr. Brutsman
6 worked exclusively at Arapahoe Elementary School for
7 several months?
8 A. Not both of them.
9 Q. Which one?
10 A. I believe that Joan Brummond worked there
11 exclusively.
12 Q. And what else was Dr. Brutsman doing?
13 A. She did some other training. She worked 3+8 type
14 of training, too, in the district there, so...
15 Q. So at least as far as Miss Brummond, she didn't
16 work with any other school or district that entire time?
17 A. You know, I'd have to go back and look. We were
18 still responding to requests, and I remember one which was
19 at neighboring Fremont -- I believe it was Fort Washakie
20 School District where we went over there one weekend. I
21 came up to facilitate and help, and we trained the staff on
22 a callback. We got a lot of those where districts wanted
23 that training to come back to their entire staff. And so I
24 do know that one.
25 Q. Okay. You mentioned you signed Miss Brummond and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 462
1 Dr. Brutsman's contracts?
2 A. Did I sign them? I don't think I mentioned I
3 did. Sorry. But I don't know that I did.
4 Q. Okay. Did you approve those contracts?
5 A. I would have to check the records. I don't know.
6 Q. Do you know if you signed Victoria Lesher's?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. And you approved that contract?
9 A. I did.
10 Q. Was Dr. Brutsman at all involved in the
11 development of Wyoming Read?
12 A. Brutsman?
13 Q. Brutsman.
14 A. No.
15 Q. At Fremont 38 how was the effectiveness of the
16 WYR program evaluated?
17 A. Two ways. Pre and post-assessment using Jerry
18 Johns and the PAWS scores at the end of the year, and the
19 PAWS results showed that the third graders -- and that was
20 the initial call we got for help was the third graders are
21 18 percent proficient, the lowest in the state, could you
22 help. Those kids grew from 18 percent proficient on PAWS
23 to 58 percent proficient. All grades but one, I believe,
24 grew in that way and maybe all. I don't have that data
25 right in front of me, but I have it somewhere around. I
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 463
1 could get it.
2 So overall, though none -- no self-respecting
3 teacher would say they did it, there were -- I am familiar
4 and know many of the staff at Arapahoe. I taught one of
5 those girls when she was a girl, Georgia Hammerstrom. I
6 know Lou Davich's wife, who is 7 foot 5. I remember him
7 playing basketball when I grew up in Powell. There were
8 many teachers I knew already. I worked with them before in
9 their writing project. Those teachers are very good
10 teachers, and they worked. They did their -- delivered
11 their core program. They knew really the fundamentals of
12 what we were doing already.
13 So it would be hard to say we did it ourselves.
14 A roundabout answer of saying it was a real partnership.
15 Q. So other than the PAWS scores and -- or I guess
16 other than the PAWS scores, what data was generated?
17 A. Data of pre and post-assessment with Jerry Johns,
18 the growth.
19 Q. The Memorandum of Understanding between
20 Department of Education and the district references
21 Arapahoe Elementary used as a lab school. What does the
22 term "lab school" mean?
23 A. In this case the notion was that anybody else in
24 the state who wanted to see how this looked could drive
25 over and do so. We wanted it to be very open, available.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 464
1 So all of the training videos that -- there was at least
2 one per week were on the Web page, and any materials that
3 we had gathered to go for teachers to use were on the Web
4 along with the evidence of success so people could see how
5 much kids grew.
6 So we wanted people to not only be able to tune
7 in on the WEN, which some districts did with training on
8 Tuesday evening, but also to access the video so they could
9 watch them later and access the materials, and if they
10 wanted, drive over to Arapahoe and watch what it looked
11 like. Did that happen? I don't know. I didn't live over
12 there, but I do know that one of the superintendents was
13 interested from Fremont County, and I think she walked
14 through it once, but I'm not sure. There was an open
15 invitation made, however.
16 Q. Why was a lab school needed when this program was
17 tried in other districts, in other places?
18 A. There are other districts. Not every district
19 had ever tried or witnessed it for themselves.
20 Q. Could you turn to Exhibit 2 in your exhibit
21 notebook there? Do you see that?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. And this is a professional services contract
24 between the Department of Education and Shan Anderson.
25 Shan Anderson is your daughter, correct?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 465
1 A. She is.
2 Q. If you could turn to page 8 of that. They're
3 double sided.
4 A. How do I find the page number? Okay.
5 Q. Page 8 is the signature page.
6 A. Okay. Got it.
7 Q. And is that your signature?
8 A. It is.
9 Q. And if you'll turn to Exhibit 3. This is a sole
10 source justification for the contract with Miss Anderson,
11 is it?
12 A. It is. Mrs. Anderson.
13 Q. Mrs. Anderson. And that was submitted by you,
14 correct?
15 A. It is.
16 Q. Before you signed the contract on behalf of the
17 State that employed your daughter, did you consult with the
18 attorney general to find out whether that would be a
19 violation of the Ethics and Disclosure Act or the Executive
20 Branch Code of Ethics?
21 A. I did not consult with the AG.
22 Q. Did you inform Superintendent Hill of your
23 intention to hire your daughter under a sole source
24 contract?
25 A. No.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 466
1 Q. Did you know that hiring your daughter under a
2 sole source contract might be a violation of state law that
3 would be sufficient cause to terminate her employment
4 agreement with a public official from office?
5 A. I did not know. I first heard about this in the
6 MacPherson report.
7 MR. LENHART: Mr. Chairman, that's all I
8 have. Oh, I'm sorry. And I now have some basic questions
9 that were submitted by Superintendent Hill. I apologize.
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Just a minute, Counsel.
11 Superintendent Hill, do you want to ask your basic
12 questions of Miss Lain? It's up to you.
13 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I think not.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. Does the
15 committee -- Miss Superintendent Hill.
16 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: May I respond for a
17 moment? The basic question of whether or not she has met
18 with the counsel, Mr. Salzburg and such, I would like that
19 one question asked and --
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay.
21 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: -- that would be it.
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Ask that question,
23 Counsel.
24 Q. (BY MR. LENHART) Did you speak with anyone prior
25 to today about your testimony before this committee,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 467
1 including Mr. Jarosh, Mr. Salzburg or representatives from
2 their firms, members of the legislature, other staff or
3 employees of the State, such the Governor's Office or the
4 Wyoming Department of Education?
5 A. I did not speak to members of your staff, your --
6 Mr. Jarosh or you, Mr. Lenhart, or you, Mr. Salzburg. I
7 did speak to my attorney on, I believe, Friday, Mr. Steve
8 Aron, for about two hours. So not a lengthy time of
9 sharing.
10 Q. And you don't need to divulge what you spoke with
11 your attorney about.
12 A. And I spoke with my staff in the Office of the
13 Superintendent of Public Instruction.
14 Q. And who would that staff have been?
15 A. John Masters, Sam Shumway, Christine Steele,
16 Kevin Lewis. That pretty much sums it up. Cindy Hill is
17 in our staff.
18 Q. Okay. So taking those individually, when did you
19 speak with those staff members?
20 A. Since we've been subpoenaed.
21 Q. How long was your conversation with them, or
22 conversations?
23 A. Intermittent and as a question would arise around
24 the work.
25 Q. Please describe in detail those discussions.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 468
1 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Chair, excuse me
2 for interrupting.
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Superintendent Hill.
4 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I just wanted to know
5 if she had spoken with her legal counsel. You had asked
6 me.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right. We can stop
8 there. Thank you, Superintendent Hill.
9 Committee, do you all have any questions?
10 Representative Madden.
11 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Thank you,
12 Mr. Speaker.
13 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
14 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) You should all have a
15 copy of an Exhibit 5, and I hope that the witness has one.
16 Anyway, this was a promotional piece that was part of a
17 document request that we got from the Wyoming Department of
18 Education, and it was kind of the front page of a promotion
19 of Wy Read, and you'll see on the top there's a logo that
20 says, "Wy Read," and then right below it, it says, "Wyoming
21 Reads." And then it says further down "Sheryl Lain and
22 Literacy Links." Could you explain to me what Literacy
23 Links is?
24 A. I can. Literacy Links is just a term that I've
25 used in the last couple of decades. It applies to a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 469
1 newsletter that I put out to literacy teachers. So it's by
2 way of recognition. People recognize me by my name or by
3 links or all kinds of ways. It's nothing formal exactly.
4 It's just a moniker of recognition.
5 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Mr. Speaker.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Sir.
7 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) I take it from that
8 it's not a registered business name or anything like that,
9 then. And the Literacy Links, just to make sure, is not
10 part of -- or I should say Lesher, Anderson and Brummond
11 are not part of anything to do with that term; is that
12 right?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. One more question, Mr. Speaker. Copyright
15 2009 appears on the lower part of this, and we heard
16 earlier testimony from you today that it was -- this Wy
17 Read was not copyrighted. But I guess to help me out and
18 understanding this, was it copyrighted in 2009? And if
19 that's the case, was it -- is it no longer copyrighted?
20 Was that copyright withdrawn and was it copyrighted during
21 the time, oh, say, the years from 2010 to 2012?
22 A. Frankly, I think that this is -- Mr. Chairman, I
23 think I need to address you first.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Oh, that's fine.
25 THE WITNESS: And take the questions from
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 470
1 you, and I apologize.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: That's okay.
3 A. Mr. Chairman, or Mr. Speaker, Mr. Madden, you
4 know, I think this is -- we have about I don't know how
5 many renditions of this kind of title page, and I'm not
6 even sure who, if Tori put this out or if I or Joan or
7 somebody as a tweaking. It's not a PD document, and it's
8 not copyrighted in any official way. I think there might
9 be -- I'd like to confer with somebody who knows about
10 copyright, but I think it's not copyrighted now, then or
11 ever.
12 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) One more question.
13 Could you tell me what the purpose of this page was? I
14 mean, give me some examples of how it was used and who
15 might have -- who might have been exposed to this.
16 A. I have no idea about this particular page how
17 many. But what this was for, this little logo and this
18 material was to be perhaps the cover of a notebook that has
19 materials, in it that a teacher could rely on for tools
20 during WYR. So I expect right now in Niobrara County that
21 there's some rendition of this, no doubt without the
22 copyright because I don't think so, but I don't know, as a
23 cover to the materials.
24 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Okay. Thank you.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 471
1 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thank you,
2 Chairman.
3 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) First question,
4 Miss Lain. The name Wyoming Read or WYR, where did it come
5 from? Was that -- did you name it or is that from
6 Mr. Krisko? How did the name come about?
7 A. Mr. Krisko at the MacPherson report time reminded
8 me of that story. He wanted, as I told you before, the
9 Reading Recovery type of notion for all of his kids, and he
10 took it to his staff, those who participated. By the way,
11 his staff who came to WYR training were all paid for by
12 federal funds, Title II, 6b, so forth --
13 Q. Mr. Chairman --
14 A. -- and the staff then came to the training and
15 made up the name.
16 Q. Okay. That was my question. And then do you
17 know, Miss Lain, how the assistance for Fremont 38 came
18 about, who made the call and asked for assistance?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Could you --
21 A. The initial call, I believe, came from Randy
22 Tucker, and then our initial meeting was with all
23 leadership in that district.
24 Q. Mr. Chairman. According to the media reports,
25 Mr. Tucker made the call without going through his
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 472
1 superintendent or the school board. Does that sound
2 accurate or do you know if the school board or
3 superintendent supported him when he made this call?
4 A. Idonotknow,butIwouldbelieveso.
5 Q. Okay. Next question, Mr. Chairman. The WYR
6 program has been documented by the WDE to say the student
7 growth accelerated from 1.5 to four plus years using the
8 WYR program. Do you know where that statistic came from?
9 A. I'm not sure where you found that in the WDE
10 materials.
11 Q. Mr. Chairman. It's on the Literacy Links, WDE
12 page.
13 A. Okay. Thankyou.
14 Q. It's just a random statistic. I don't know if
15 that was State approved or do you know where that came
16 from?
17 A. And will you restate that question now that I
18 know what you mean?
19 Q. The data provided under this promoting it to
20 districts say that the WYR program accelerates student
21 growth from 1.5 to four plus years. Any idea where the
22 data for that statistic comes from?
23 A. Yes, and I did address it before -- Chairman,
24 Speaker -- Representative Zwonitzer, that is sort of an
25 accumulated variation of the scores that we received back
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 473
1 from our Jerry Johns growth over all the time we've done
2 WYR.
3 Q. One more, Mr. Chairman. It also documents that
4 under the first semester of the WYR program kids at
5 Arapahoe grew 2.3 years in reading proficiency as in link
6 and 42 lessons, and I was just wondering where that
7 statistic came from?
8 A. 42 lessons would be the careful records that
9 people took. They keep it on a thing called the daily
10 record, do the students show up that day and so on. So we
11 calculate exactly how many exposures they had to the
12 protocol. And the data comes from the Jerry Johns
13 assessment, pre and post-assessment.
14 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Okay. Thank
15 you.
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Patton.
17 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE PATTON) On the WYR program as
18 a formal way, formal document, and I don't have the exact
19 quote, how does the Department use this on the 48 districts
20 across the state?
21 What I'm getting at is do all the Blue Ribbon
22 schools in the state use this document or has it been
23 presented as a part of the curriculum offering of, say, the
24 Blue Ribbon schools?
25 A. Let me think about your question. Speaker
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 474
1 Lubnau, Representative Patton, I would have no idea really.
2 We only -- it's by district interest. So WDE would never
3 and is really not allowed to do a curriculum piece. Even
4 though the Federal Register says it's up to the State to
5 determine curriculum, it's by request, and that's how it
6 would come to a district, by request.
7 So I do not know how many Blue Ribbon schools
8 would or would not have used this. We could perhaps
9 discover that by some kind of polling. I don't know.
10 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Thank you.
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Other questions?
12 Representative Connolly.
13 REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY: Thank you,
14 Mr. Speaker. A couple of questions for Ms. Lain.
15 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY) Ms. Lain, I'm
16 curious about your relationship with the superintendent in
17 terms of the issues that you just talked about. I assume
18 that the superintendent is your direct supervisor, and so
19 I'm curious about, for example, this sole source contract
20 with your daughter Shan Anderson. Can you talk a little
21 bit about the superintendent's kind of oversight of that
22 contract?
23 A. Speaker Lubnau, Representative Connolly. Yes,
24 Cindy Hill would be my direct supervisor, and with issues
25 of policy and big plans, of course, she would know. At the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 475
1 level where I was working together -- may I elaborate just
2 a little bit? I need you to kind of hear some of the
3 context here.
4 Q. Sure.
5 A. We discovered by an expert, national expert, who
6 had come in to Wyoming, a member of the task team, that
7 component, critical component of the PAWS assessment in
8 reading that was meant -- that we paid money for and that
9 was meant to be the report to teachers about how their
10 students were reading in the skill areas had never been
11 fully disseminated in the state. And this particular
12 expert helped design some of the purposes and so forth of
13 this test and the research behind it, and he was very
14 disappointed that teachers were not utilizing the report.
15 He told us about this in February 2011 at one of the very
16 first times I ever met him, and I'm the instructional
17 leader and this sounded like you have goofed.
18 Now, we had a general idea, concept, principle of
19 not interrupting teaching. And so I was viewing -- I was
20 moving toward the thought that we would just start
21 disseminating the information he thought needed to be out
22 there in the summer with very few months. It takes at
23 least 90 days for a contract to go through.
24 Very heavy lift, palm sweating to go out and to
25 try to really do this work really at the teachers' request,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 476
1 because when Superintendent Hill negotiated an agreement
2 with Pearson, they allowed $2.6 million back to us for the
3 boo-boo of the debacle of the PAWS assessment in 2010.
4 What they wanted to do is not apply that against what we
5 owe them but to come and do PD. And Superintendent Hill
6 requested a survey in the state to find out if teachers
7 wanted professional development from Pearson. They did
8 not, but they wanted professional development.
9 So I am now in the line of work to get out this
10 important information about the PAWS assessment in reading
11 and the skills that are embedded in, and we've paid for the
12 instructional support.
13 So I started to amass a team of experts that were
14 both excellent practitioners and who had experience out
15 there delivering instruction to their colleagues that they
16 could deliver the content behind this and demonstrate it
17 with very good practice, and I began to call everyone I
18 knew in the state, and I know a great number of folks,
19 having worked all over the state.
20 I had the highest -- the teacher with the highest
21 third-grade scores in the state, and she was young and
22 inexperienced and had never taken the National Writing
23 Project training, and I promised people I would never have
24 them go into a room full of teachers at their grade level
25 alone. They would have a partner. And I needed a partner,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 477
1 and I was getting desperate. I asked Laurel, I had asked
2 Marta. I had asked -- I went through a list of the
3 teachers that I knew that had the qualifications that would
4 be believable and credible and would represent the State
5 well with this huge lift, and the primary was the whole,
6 and I finally twisted my daughter's arm to take the month
7 of August off and leave her kids behind and go do this.
8 And so the long answer behind the story is to --
9 there was a contract made. Cindy Hill had no idea. I
10 think neither would my attorney. Had I known, I wouldn't.
11 I don't know what we would have done.
12 I believe -- here's what I do believe -- that I
13 made a procedural error that she would still be the best
14 teacher to go out -- with credentials to go out and
15 willingness, too, and the contract would have happened.
16 Now, I'm -- Mrs. Connolly, did I answer exactly
17 what you wanted? Because your question was my relationship
18 with Cindy. She's my boss, and would she know about the
19 contract with Shan Anderson, and the answer is no, she did
20 not know that.
21 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Throne,
22 then Representative Zwonitzer.
23 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Thank you,
24 Mr. Speaker.
25 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Was Superintendent
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 478
1 Hill aware that Shan Anderson was working on the project?
2 A. Speaker Lubnau, Representative Throne.
3 Occasionally Cindy was able to show up at these events and
4 she did run into Shan.
5 Q. Would you just --
6 A. No, she would not necessarily know that she was
7 working. She thought she was volunteering perhaps. I
8 don't know. I didn't have that conversation.
9 Q. Did Miss Anderson only work the month of August
10 on this project?
11 A. That I do believe is a yes.
12 Q. And how much was she compensated for this month?
13 A. Now, can I give general and an estimate if I
14 don't have access to it?
15 Q. Generally, to the best of your recollection.
16 A. All right. I think all of the contracts for all
17 of these dozen or 18 or so reading experts who went out on
18 the road beginning in August and then all weekends after
19 until we were finished and did callbacks and all of that, I
20 think we contracted for 17,000, thinking that that would
21 cover their events where they were paid as well as their
22 travel and mileage and their meals and so forth.
23 And I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that Shan
24 then sent in receipts or requested 7,000 out of that, and I
25 think half of it was maybe -- if I'm about in the ballpark
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 479
1 of my memory, about half of that might have been her
2 stipend for that, and the rest would have been motels and
3 driving and so forth.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer.
5 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Thanks. I need
6 three quick ones, Mr. Chairman.
7 First, Miss Lain, do you remember back probably
8 seven years ago when then Director Trent Blankenship got in
9 trouble for hiring his mother on a contract? Were you
10 aware of any news regarding that situation or issue?
11 A. Speaker Lubnau. Only as hearsay, but I heard
12 that.
13 Q. Second, Mr. Chairman, on that Exhibit 3 in front
14 of you, the letter for the bid waiver request, personal
15 source, at the bottom of that. I need you to look at that
16 real fast. There's some initials SH and MB are the people
17 who actually typed that. Could you tell me whose initials
18 those are?
19 A. I don't know who SH is. I wonder if that's a
20 typo and it should be SL.
21 Q. And the MB?
22 A. And MB is Marina Barela, the admin.
23 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Okay. Thank
24 you. That's my --
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Baker, then
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 480
1 Representative Throne.
2 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Yes. Thank you,
3 Mr. Chairman.
4 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BAKER) I'm handing out and I
5 got with Mr. Olbrecht and he's going to be putting this in
6 the file as an exhibit. What I've printed out here, Miss
7 Lain, and I'll bring it to you, is a PowerPoint slide from
8 a presentation that you did for the Native American
9 conference in October of 2010. This came off of the Wyo
10 Reads, the PowerPoint. It's on the Wyoming Department of
11 Education website.
12 What I'd like you to briefly do is maybe go down
13 this list and explain to us which of these -- which of
14 these research individuals or documents that you have here
15 that might be included in that white-coat research.
16 A. Speaker Lubnau. I'm wondering if all of you have
17 access to this. This is the first time I've really looked
18 at it recently, so...
19 The first one is the Alliance for Excellent
20 Education, Reading Next. That would be white-coat
21 research.
22 Richard Allington all the way down his are
23 always. Most frequently they're called the meta analysis.
24 So he didn't do the white coat, but he does do that. He's
25 a distinguished author of many reading materials, so forth.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 481
1 So those would be. Meta analysis study pyramid, I'm sure.
2 Nancie Atwell's writing workshop, that I don't
3 know, but I do know that the term "writing workshop" is
4 research based.
5 The book When Kids Can't Read What Teachers Can
6 Do by Kylene Beers is published by Heinemann. It's a
7 professional book meant for practitioners so that it's
8 written in a friendly style and with an extensive
9 bibliography of research behind it. So it's not a research
10 study. Instead, Kylene Beers' book is a synthesis of all
11 kinds of research told so that a practitioner can imagine
12 doing that with students. Itself it isn't a white coat.
13 I don't want to be redundant here, but I want to
14 try to distinguish technically between white coat and then
15 a synthesis of research and for a practitioner to use, and
16 that's what Kylene Beers is. But she's been the president
17 of International Reading and da, da, da, and she's very
18 well respected, and so there would be no way Heinemann
19 would publish it casually.
20 Okay. And the Caine, Renate Caine brain work is
21 research based. Marie Clay's is research based. Fountas
22 and Pinnell are out of Ohio State University, and their
23 work undergirds Reading Recovery in America as well as
24 guided reading, and it's all research based, and many
25 materials are published and used by districts all around
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 482
1 the United States. And guided reading is the primary focus
2 there.
3 The Goodman, all of that's research based, the
4 Cambourne, so forth. Jerry Johns' work is research based.
5 Peter Johnston's book Choice Words is a slightly different
6 kind of professional book. There's lots of research behind
7 it, kind of like the Beers one, only in the case of this
8 one this particular guy, Peter Johnston, who is a special
9 ed expert, says that what a teacher says in feedback to a
10 kid can either tip him to learn or tip him to turn off like
11 the kid says something and you say, "That's wrong, that's
12 wrong," or if you say, "Look at the first part of that
13 word, you got the L right, the rest of it says laugh,
14 "aff," put it together, laugh." In other words, to give
15 kids very specific choice words to grow them, and that's
16 one of the pieces that's so critical here in WYR is that we
17 choose our words carefully from our observations of
18 students so they grow.
19 Connie Juel's, it's from the Reading Research
20 Quarterly. Anything you see from the Reading Research
21 Quarterly is white coat.
22 Ellin Keene, Mosaic of Thought spread the
23 country. It was about thinking strategies. Laramie 1,
24 Goshen, about, I don't know, half the districts in the
25 state of Wyoming use Ellen Keene's work. The book itself,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 483
1 though, if you were to read it, though it has extensive
2 bibliography, is quite readable for a layperson, and
3 practitioners read into it how to be in the classroom.
4 Okay. And I can go on. Do you want me to finish
5 the entire list?
6 Q. Mr. Chairman. If you could just briefly go
7 down -- you don't have to give an explanation of what the
8 articles are, but if you could just briefly go down the
9 list and identify which one of those are actual white coat
10 with empirical data.
11 A. I'm sorry, sir.
12 Q. Sure, with empirical data.
13 A. ASCD work by white coat. So Lucas, Marzano is.
14 I don't know for sure if you would consider Donna Maxim
15 white coat.
16 The next one, National Center for Ed Statistics,
17 yes. National Reading Panel, yes. Reading -- Research
18 Literature on Reading and Its Implications, so that's part
19 of that. Tim Rasinski, he is a fluency expert, yes.
20 Louise Rosenblatt, yes. George Salembier, "Scan and Run"
21 in the Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy, yes.
22 Carol Santa, yes. She's out of Montana and for 35 years
23 has been delivering reading strategy work.
24 Mary Shea, yes. Mike Smith and Jeff Wilhelm,
25 yes. Dorothy Strickland, I'm not sure. That's in
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 484
1 Scholastic magazine. It is a highly peer tutored -- peer
2 reviewed.
3 The Reading Teacher, "Using Real Books" is white
4 coat. Carol Ann Tomlinson is white coat. Cris Tovani is
5 like the others I've described. It's a practitioner's use
6 founded on research, but I don't know that you would say in
7 a technical way it's white coat.
8 Lynda Tredway's Socratic Seminars, very seriously
9 researched, the business of socratic seminars. Vygotsky is
10 research based. Molly Williams is the Journal of
11 Adolescent Literacy, it's peer reviewed. Bruner, Wood,
12 research. Karen Wood, I'm not sure on that one. Jo
13 Worthy, these are all peer-reviewed journals. How much
14 research went in versus practitioner work, it might tip
15 over more to practitioner work than white-coat research.
16 And this is a partial list really. It was in a
17 PowerPoint, I believe, right? In which case the research
18 list in the actual WYR notebook or something would probably
19 be three or four pages.
20 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) I have a couple of questions
21 and then Representative Blikre. And I'm just trying to
22 understand your testimony, Miss Lain, and so if I restate
23 it wrong, correct me. The Wyoming Reads program was a
24 program that was synthesized from all of this research on
25 this list and other research; is that correct?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 485
1 A. One word I'd fix and that's "program" because for
2 us that has a certain technical meaning. It's a protocol.
3 Q. Okay. This is a protocol?
4 A. But otherwise yes.
5 Q. And primarily it was, as I understood your
6 testimony, based on a Reading Recovery by Marie Clay, and
7 that's a program that you said was owned by Ohio State; is
8 that right?
9 A. Senator Lubnau, Speaker Lubnau, I mean, it's not
10 owned by Ohio State. The licensing goes through Ohio State
11 so that all Reading Recovery teachers are licensed and
12 deemed qualified Reading Recovery expert teachers. Did I
13 answer that right? Or did I answer that fully as you asked
14 it?
15 Q. So you have to go through a Reading Recovery
16 training course and get a license from Ohio State to be a
17 certified Reading Recovery teacher?
18 A. Absolutely, as they are -- as yours are in
19 Gillette, as those are in Sheridan, so forth. Those are --
20 wherever Reading Recovery happens and they carry that name,
21 they are licensed by Ohio State University is my
22 understanding at least.
23 Q. And so Wy Read is a protocol; is that correct?
24 A. It is a protocol.
25 Q. Did there ever come a time where you needed to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 486
1 change the name of Wy Read?
2 A. It isn't Wy Read. It's WYR, Wyoming Read, and I
3 never -- after the Krisko group decided on that name,
4 that's the name we used.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Although maybe somebody would say Wy Read. I
7 don't know.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. Instead of WYR.
10 Q. And so then Representative Madden showed you
11 Exhibit 5 that had the copyright sticker down on the bottom
12 that says, "2009, all rights reserved." Is my testimony
13 that that was a mistake and that it's not copyrighted?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And then there's the language in the contract
16 that says, WYR is a reading instructional program developed
17 by Sheryl Lain and used by her permission as an
18 instructional intervention tool for grades 2 through 8.
19 Children -- younger children may use a specialized tool
20 described as Primary WYR. WYR is not (sic) an acronym for
21 Wyoming Reads as the instructional program is also known.
22 Your testimony is that is also a mistake?
23 A. It is.
24 Q. You can see how we might be confused when we have
25 two documents that say you own it and then you tell us you
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 487
1 don't, can't you?
2 A. I really can't. I don't see -- there's no owning
3 of something like this. And I've given it away all over.
4 So I can't see why owning it -- that would be confusing.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. All right.
6 Representative Blikre.
7 REPRESENTATIVE BLIKRE: Thank you,
8 Mr. Chairman.
9 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BLIKRE) Miss Lain, this list
10 right here, who made this list?
11 A. That list is compiled by me.
12 Q. And that was compiled by you. And my question is
13 did all of these people actually refer to the "Wyo" -- to
14 Wy Read and did they actually study Wyoming? I mean, are
15 these people actually saying that your protocol is research
16 based?
17 A. Those people -- that's not how this -- let me
18 think. Speaker Lubnau.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yes ma'am.
20 A. The people here wouldn't know about WYR unless
21 they read some of my publications that I -- where I talked
22 about it out there. So this is simply the body of research
23 upon which this was synthesized to produce this protocol.
24 It's a lot like for lawyers when you have a legal
25 publication service and they collect case law and statutes
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 488
1 and so forth and then put it out as a manageable resource.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Blikre.
3 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BLIKRE) Thank you,
4 Mr. Chairman.
5 Thank you, Miss Lain. So these people don't know
6 about the WYR protocol, and yet you say that they support
7 it on this. So do you think that they would feel good
8 about being used as support for a protocol as a statement
9 that they support it?
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Miss Lain.
11 A. Certainly, Speaker Lubnau. Representative
12 Blikre, this document doesn't attempt to say that the
13 researchers know WYR and support it. It means that the
14 body of evidence that they've accumulated, the work that
15 they've done we've read, we're referencing.
16 So it would be conjecture, I think, on my part to
17 say that they would approve it, but I would say they would,
18 just knowing that this is the way they were going, they
19 would be glad to see that practitioners have utilized their
20 body of work and gone and made a difference with students
21 so that kids who couldn't read before can, kids who could
22 pass the Compass now because they had been tutored.
23 So do these people know WYR? No. Their work
24 supports WYR.
25 Q. Mr. Chairman, just one more. Thank you.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 489
1 Thank you, Miss Lain. I have one other question,
2 and you referred many times to the assessment scores and to
3 the body of evidence produced by the assessment scores from
4 the Jerry Johns test administered to students. About where
5 can one find those?
6 A. The Jerry Johns assessment results are available.
7 I don't have them here. Those results -- let me qualify,
8 from Arapahoe. I believe that we could find them and
9 get -- deliver them in terms of the Jerry Johns assessment
10 in Arapahoe.
11 But WYR has been going on in many districts,
12 multiple districts, for 10, 12 years, and would every tutor
13 or para who has ever worked one on one with a child in WYR
14 have records still? No. And because I'm not the clearing
15 house for that, I've given it away, I wouldn't have all of
16 those. I would have an indication of a few.
17 So that, for instance, at Carey Junior High where
18 WYR happened, the average growth is about 2.5 years of
19 students pre and posting with this assessment called Jerry
20 Johns. So a little kid who is now -- he's 16, he's in
21 ninth grade, student T let's call him comes to us with a
22 big old IEP, meaning he's special ed, and he doesn't know
23 his sounds, within 40 or 50 lessons would move to second
24 grade from pretem primmer before kinder even, he would move
25 two or three years with diligent day by day, day by day,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 490
1 one-on-oneing with somebody who could know how to give him
2 feedback, get the right book in front of him, put the next
3 highest, the next more difficult book in front of him and
4 the next one and the next one.
5 And so when Joan Brummond would be working with
6 student T, he would definitely grow, and yet would I have
7 that data? No, but I do know that story where student D in
8 Torrington, who was a senior in special ed and could not
9 read, and he's Hispanic and first generation high school
10 student, and he's a dang good pitcher, he's a dang good
11 pitcher and he gets an offer to college, he can't pass the
12 Compass, but with tutoring from his special educator is
13 able to pass the Compass test.
14 This type of evidence I know anecdotally, but I
15 wouldn't have all those records anymore at all and neither
16 would -- and I'm not there to receive them where it's going
17 on right now. So in Natrona County, I don't even know
18 the --
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Winters and
20 then Representative Petroff.
21 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE WINTERS) Mr. Chairman. We
22 heard a couple of statements yesterday, and I just wanted
23 to hear your perspective on these. So I wanted to repeat
24 them. One gentleman yesterday made the statement that
25 students were being tested from across the spectrum and the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 491
1 assistance wasn't just going to the lowest students, the
2 students with the lowest reading ability. And my question,
3 number one, is would that kind of skew the result possibly
4 if it's just broad spectrum?
5 And then secondly, the complaint also was there
6 was no process for reporting back to the classroom. And so
7 I'm just kind of curious if that is -- if that's true or
8 there was a method to report back to the classroom?
9 A. Speaker Lubnau. Representative Winter, with
10 regard to the first part of your question, the broad
11 spectrum, would it skew the results, I'm thinking we're
12 talking about the informal reading inventory pre and post,
13 which is Jerry Johns. No, because that's student by
14 student. So if I assess this child, no matter how well he
15 reads or no matter what grade, I would be able to have a
16 baseline and then after tutoring would have a
17 post-assessment.
18 It might if I had a very high reader skew the
19 results lower because it's very hard for a little
20 9-year-old who already reads at 12th grade to go to what,
21 16th grade or something.
22 So there were, as I understand it, at Arapahoe
23 not always the lowest students who needed intervention, but
24 I don't think that the broad spectrum would affect the
25 data.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 492
1 The second part was was there a process, and I
2 believe there was a process. There was contact and
3 communication and interface face to face every time a WYR
4 para went to the classroom. Now, they were in two separate
5 buildings very close together, but the kids were escorted
6 back and forth before and after the intervention.
7 And there was conversation, and I believe that
8 there would be somebody more knowledgeable than I that it
9 would be natural and even important that the classroom
10 teachers know, because after all, they're the ones who
11 volunteered the kids. And so they would want results.
12 That would be what classroom teachers would want.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Petroff.
14 REPRESENTATIVE PETROFF: Thank you,
15 Mr. Speaker.
16 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE PETROFF) I have several
17 questions. Shifting gears back to Exhibit 3 where Marina
18 Barela is copied on that, at that time was Marina Barela
19 aware that Shan Anderson was your daughter?
20 A. I do not know. I wish everybody would have known
21 ahead of time. It was a procedural problem. Someone else
22 would have signed that contract. So I don't know that
23 answer to that.
24 REPRESENTATIVE PETROFF: And, Mr. Speaker,
25 follow-up?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 493
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yes, ma'am.
2 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE PETROFF) And you've testified
3 that Superintendent Hill was unaware of the contract. But
4 was she aware at that time that Shan Anderson was your
5 daughter?
6 A. Speaker Lubnau. Yes, Representative Petroff,
7 Cindy Hill would have known my daughter in an art class
8 they took together years ago.
9 Q. And follow-up, Mr. Speaker. And were there any
10 other volunteer tutors in the 3+8 program, any volunteers
11 that weren't paid contractors?
12 A. Speaker Lubnau. I don't think there were.
13 Q. Okay. And, Mr. Speaker, one more follow-up. And
14 so you did testify that Superintendent Hill did see Shan
15 Anderson in these programs at various times.
16 A. I think that would be a question -- I'm
17 conjecturing because I wasn't there. But I think you'd
18 want to ask Superintendent Hill that question. I believe
19 so.
20 REPRESENTATIVE PETROFF: Thank you.
21 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Baker.
22 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BAKER) Thank you, Mr.
23 Chairman. Miss Lain. Just briefly. On this PowerPoint
24 that is from the Native American conference in October 2011
25 that you're the author of, there are 49 slides, and I've
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 494
1 scrolled through all 49 slides and haven't seen a copyright
2 on one of them. Could you tell me why?
3 A. I'm sorry, I'm not understanding what all the
4 slides were.
5 Q. This is your PowerPoint, and it's just a
6 presentation, and there is no copyright on any of them.
7 A. Okay. Senator Lubnau. If I understand the
8 question --
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thanks for the promotion,
10 but I'm only a representative.
11 A. I'm sorry, I got my S's backwards. Speaker
12 Lubnau. Representative Baker, I'm not sure I understand
13 the question, but nothing would have been copyrighted in
14 that way. It would all be given.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any other questions of the
16 committee? Representative Throne -- or Representative
17 Patton and then Representative Throne.
18 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE PATTON) On the Mockelmann
19 Exhibit Number 1, page 2096. Do you have that?
20 A. I'm not sure. Can you repeat that, sir. Would
21 you repeat that?
22 Q. In that is the statement that the WYR reading
23 intervention program suggests that by the contract there is
24 such a program, and it also states in there again
25 cooperation with the Department of Education and the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 495
1 University of Wyoming. That's the first time I've heard or
2 read anything of the University of Wyoming. Do they
3 collaborate with this or help to formalize the WYR program?
4 I don't understand. The WYR program isn't a program, it's
5 a protocol, and I don't know what the distinction is there.
6 Does the document exist? Does it help this and has the
7 University of Wyoming participated in it?
8 A. Speaker Lubnau.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yes, ma'am.
10 A. Representative Patton, I'm sorry, but I haven't
11 found the exact reference to the University of Wyoming, but
12 was the University of Wyoming involved in WYR? No.
13 Q. Okay.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: What page number was that,
15 Representative Patton?
16 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Page 2096 of
17 Exhibit Number 1 in the Mocklelmann exhibits, middle of the
18 page.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I want to get you to the
20 right page if we're going to ask you questions.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Speaker Lubnau.
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yes, ma'am.
23 A. I see where you are now, Mr. Patton, and thank
24 you. I did not write this, and it's the first time I've
25 seen it. I believe that it's not entirely written
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 496
1 accurately, and so I don't know who did it or for what.
2 But perhaps -- I'm going to make a conjecture is what I
3 believe this is trying to say is that it's in partnership
4 with Wyoming -- with the Wyoming Department of Ed and that
5 potential University of Wyoming credit is available, and
6 that would be true.
7 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Okay.
8 A. Participants earned between 1 and 4 UW credits
9 for WYR training. That's to the best of my knowledge of
10 what that might mean.
11 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: A follow-up, then?
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Certainly.
13 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE PATTON) Thank you. That is
14 helpful. One of the things that comes to my mind is how
15 does the University of Wyoming give credit on something
16 that is as vague as a protocol if there isn't something a
17 little more tangent than the wide spectrum that you have as
18 this thing shows?
19 A. Speaker Lubnau. It goes through an approval
20 process, and it went through that approval process from UW
21 with members of the faculty there in College of Ed, and it
22 was granted approval for teaching that. So there was
23 credit allowed.
24 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Thank you.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Let's see. Representative
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 497
1 Greear, we haven't heard from you yet.
2 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) Mr. Speaker, thank
3 you. Sheryl, in I guess the last week of July, August,
4 September of 2011, who was in charge of getting WYR Read to
5 the students in Fremont 38?
6 A. Speaker Lubnau, Senator Greear -- Representative
7 Greear. We weren't there in July.
8 Q. Mr. Speaker. Okay.
9 A. 2011.
10 Q. So when we first started that program, when the
11 Department of Ed went over there, who was in charge from
12 the Department of Ed?
13 A. Cindy Hill was contacted.
14 Q. Okay. Mr. Speaker. So the superintendent was
15 the one that was getting things organized and put into
16 place?
17 A. She received the first request for assistance.
18 Q. Mr. Speaker. Who was in charge?
19 A. I think it's -- may I explain?
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Certainly.
21 A. If I have the question right, it's who was in
22 charge of WYR at Arapahoe. Is that an accurate --
23 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Let me try. Who was in
24 charge of implementing WYR at Arapahoe?
25 A. Speaker Lubnau. This was done with -- from the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 498
1 request from the district.
2 Q. Okay. We have the request from the district.
3 They called Superintendent Hill. After they called
4 Superintendent Hill, somebody was in charge of organizing
5 it and getting it all started and getting all the pieces.
6 A. That would be me.
7 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) Okay. Mr. Speaker.
8 So were you on site on a regular basis in Fremont County or
9 were you back in Cheyenne?
10 A. Speaker Lubnau. I was in Cheyenne for the most
11 part, but I traveled to Riverton maybe monthly, once a
12 month maybe, something like that.
13 Q. So, Mr. Speaker. So Jane Brutsman and Joan
14 Brummond, if we've got their names correctly, those are the
15 two SSoS coaches who were on the ground getting things
16 implemented?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And hands on implementation?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. I'm just asking these questions. I've reviewed
21 in detail almost 5,000 documents, and it just was never
22 clear to me who was over there and who was in charge of
23 that program.
24 So, Mr. Speaker, with that, and this has been an
25 item of concern that's been brought to me by a lot of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 499
1 people, and that was dealing with the tutors, and I
2 understand we switched the name to paraprofessionals. And
3 I'm also reviewing the information and know that there were
4 no contracts because contracts for those paraprofessionals
5 couldn't get done until the MOU was done, and no one has
6 taken the responsibility or can tell me who hired those
7 tutors, those paraprofessionals.
8 A. Speaker Lubnau.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yes, ma'am.
10 A. Mr. Greear, the district hired and paid the
11 tutor, the paras. It is slippery because when I think of
12 working one on one with somebody, I use the generic term
13 tutor.
14 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: No, that's fine.
15 A. But technically they're paras. They fall within
16 the qualifications of paras, and they were hired by the
17 district, interviewed and hired by the district.
18 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) Mr. Speaker. You
19 know, and this happened quickly, and I admire the fact that
20 here, we went and tried to get something done, okay? You
21 testified earlier, though, that we did one day of training
22 before, and I read that in some of the material as well.
23 So we did three hours of training for these people and then
24 turned them loose with the children?
25 A. Speaker Lubnau. The training model is not new.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 500
1 The training model is you have preliminary training and
2 then every -- when you pick up a child, you're being
3 supervised to do the beginning pieces, such as the
4 preassessment. It takes a couple of days to do that with
5 the child. It takes more than 30 minutes. And then
6 there's more coaching and more help from your reading
7 experts to the paras. They're under constant supervision
8 that way. Not just supervision as in watching, though they
9 were all watched, but supervision as in training. And it's
10 so that the actual picking up of a child and moving through
11 assessment, they were going according to their training
12 from the first day. And then they got some more training
13 as they got past the assessment and got into picking the
14 book for the child. So it was ongoing.
15 You're not done the first day you've had some
16 training. You can only just absorb so much as paras, and
17 then they have repeated training on how this was supposed
18 to look, how the next piece would fit in and what choice
19 words to say. So the training was ongoing and the
20 supervision was continual.
21 Q. So, Mr. Speaker. So the first training for --
22 can I just -- I'll just use tutors, okay -- for the tutors
23 was three hours. They received three hours of training on
24 this protocol --
25 A. That isn't --
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 501
1 Q. -- and then went in with the children?
2 A. Speaker Lubnau. That is not accurate. It would
3 be a day of training, sometimes two days of training where
4 they would get the materials, take a look at how it's
5 supposed to go and so forth, and then weekly three hours on
6 Tuesday.
7 Q. Okay. Mr. Speaker. And I'm -- maybe you don't
8 know this. But where did the first list of tutors come
9 from? Where did they get recruited so quickly from?
10 A. They put out -- Speaker Lubnau. They put out an
11 ad in the papers in Fremont County and then -- yeah.
12 Q. And, Mr. Speaker. And then being in charge of
13 this program, did you look at their credentials? Did you
14 make sure that they -- the fingerprinting was done? Who
15 was in charge of all of these tutors?
16 A. That's a good question. Speaker Lubnau. That is
17 up to the district. And so their work, they're screening
18 and so forth would be theirs.
19 Q. Mr. Speaker. You know, and I've read a ton of
20 e-mails and the correspondence back and forth on the MOU,
21 and none of those things are mentioned until October in
22 terms of who's going to be doing that, and we had testimony
23 yesterday about the concern of who could even fire those
24 tutors. And so I guess what my concern is -- and maybe
25 you've already answered. I have a question for you here --
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 502
1 is it doesn't appear anybody was looking at this when this
2 program first started. You're telling me you didn't. You
3 said the district, it was the district's responsibility if
4 I understand your answer.
5 A. Speaker Lubnau. Representative Greear, the
6 Wyoming Department of Education provided two SSoS coaches
7 and some other support as we've discussed. The district
8 hired the tutors. They screened them. They went through
9 whatever their district rules and regulations are, and
10 hence, were paras. Because para, the technical definition
11 is different, and so the district would fire and hire and
12 change the salary and all of those things. The district
13 could have quit the program.
14 Q. Mr. Speaker. So neither you nor the two SOS
15 coaches that were there were concerned about the quality of
16 the people that showed up to do this training?
17 A. Speaker Lubnau. That would be a concern.
18 However --
19 Q. So then -- Mr. Speaker. So then what did you do
20 to address that concern?
21 A. We did -- we trained -- I believe that anyone can
22 be a really good para with this. That's really some of the
23 research here, too. And so I think we took who at the
24 district -- who the district hired and we worked with it,
25 and the results were really good.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 503
1 Q. I just -- again, these are concerns that have
2 been brought to me. I just wanted to see if I could get
3 some clear answers of what transpired in those early days
4 of this program and concern with the people that we were
5 entrusting one on one with our children.
6 A. Speaker Lubnau. I agree, sir, that we would want
7 the complete truth here and real clarity, and this whole
8 entire process is in every way appropriate, legal and
9 supported by federal law, supported by state statute,
10 supported by the Federal Register about what is and what is
11 not research based. I need to say that is the truth.
12 The concern should be here and we should talk
13 about them, and we should seek the truth from what we know.
14 There are others who are boots on the ground, Dr. Jane
15 Brutsman, Joan Brummond, who could tell you perhaps hour by
16 hour how many hours the paras spent or were they all on the
17 screening and interview teams. These things I do not know.
18 But I know that it was spelled out their range of
19 responsibility and the district's.
20 And districts hire paraprofessionals all the time
21 according to their rules, their rules and according to
22 their own particular policies.
23 Q. So, Mr. Speaker. Now, you said something I'm
24 interested in. Where was that spelled out, their
25 responsibilities? You just said those were all clearly
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 504
1 spelled out, and I'm telling you I've read -- I've spent
2 days on this trying to find this information. Where is
3 that spelled out?
4 A. Speaker Lubnau. That was really clear to Jane
5 and Joan verbally what their responsibilities were, and I
6 believe, though someone else could -- perhaps I'd like to
7 have that be part of the -- we could look at their
8 contracts and so forth. But yes, yes.
9 Q. Mr. Speaker. I've reviewed their contracts and
10 they're general in nature, which I understand the purpose
11 for that. And I've reviewed, as Representative Madden has
12 suggested, the invoices and their time sheets and
13 everything they submitted under those contracts. So if
14 there's something out there, I'd like to see it. If you
15 can find it, give it to me later, that would be great on
16 what those responsibilities and those duties, how those are
17 spelled out.
18 And probably more importantly, if it's out there,
19 can we find something that shows where that was
20 communicated to Fremont 38, to that district? If it
21 exists, we'd love to have it.
22 A. The only thought I have, Speaker Lubnau and
23 Greear, is that is in the MOU. It's spelled out that the
24 district hires the paras.
25 Q. Mr. Speaker. And, Sheryl, you understand that
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 505
1 that MOU wasn't signed until December. Am I correct on
2 that? Yeah. See, my concern initially how is that spelled
3 out, how was that clearly articulated and communicated? If
4 you've got that information, please give it. Please give
5 it to me. That's all I ask.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any other questions? All
7 right. It looks like we've got a lot of questions. We're
8 going to take a break now for 15 minutes. We will
9 reconvene at 10 to 11:00.
10 (Hearing proceedings recessed
11 10:35 a.m. to 10:55 a.m.)
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We're back on the record.
13 There were a whole series of questions at this end of the
14 table when we took a break. Who -- Representative
15 Connolly.
16 REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY: Thank you,
17 Mr. Speaker.
18 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY) Ms. Lain, could you
19 summarize for the committee conversations that you had with
20 Superintendent Hill about WYR in Fremont 38?
21 A. Speaker. Speaker Lubnau. I think I'm on now.
22 Representative Connolly, I will try. I'm not remembering
23 every single thing about 2011, but I guess maybe first the
24 background is that Superintendent Hill did know WYR. She
25 had been -- the two of us might be the only folks all
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 506
1 around who have actually turned a school around, and that
2 was Carey, and so we used WYR there. And she took the
3 training and she tutored the students. So did all the
4 principals there. So she had a lot of background
5 knowledge.
6 Now, I'm talking to you about from a teacher's
7 perspective, did she know that Tier III intervention? Yes.
8 Upon the call was there an intention to do WYR immediately?
9 No. That evolved from the interaction with the board about
10 a week after we got the request for assistance as per the
11 rules, the school accreditation rules that are a part of
12 how we operate. We get a request from the district. The
13 WDE is to respond with technical assistance to the capacity
14 and resources it has. That's how the language goes. I'm
15 paraphrasing.
16 And so we responded to go see, as an expert,
17 eyewitness their program and view what their program was.
18 I saw it, their reading program, and I knew the component
19 that was missing.
20 So perhaps in the course of that conversation
21 with the 30 people at the table she might have heard me say
22 that, we could do that, and then later I don't recall
23 specific conversations with her about it at all, but she
24 would know general and broad things going on.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Connolly.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 507
1 REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY: Thank you,
2 Mr. Speaker.
3 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY) As a follow-up, did
4 Superintendent Hill look at the contracts regarding Fremont
5 38?
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Miss Lain.
7 A. Representative, that wouldn't come -- sometimes I
8 think maybe she might have because I can only conjecture.
9 I do not believe so. We had a contract procedure.
10 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY) Mr. Speaker. What
11 is that contract procedure?
12 A. Someone initiated a contract, you go through the
13 protocols. Now, I'm not the finance person nor am I really
14 a contract person. But it would go through a whole set of
15 procedures. It would then come to -- the person in our
16 agency who scrutinized contracts after they had gone
17 through finance I believe was Kevin Lewis, and he checked
18 every contract for accuracy and purpose and so forth and so
19 on, and I believe he probably did. That might be something
20 he could confirm. I'm thinking I'm accurate.
21 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) I have a couple questions,
22 if the committee would indulge me. One of our purposes is
23 to bring up further legislative action and the need for
24 further legislative action. And I look on the Internet
25 there is on the Department of Education website a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 508
1 description of WYR, and it says, "WYR is a one-on-one
2 tutoring model, is based upon the work of Marie Clay. A
3 comprehensive approach, WYR is student-centered and offers
4 scaffolding in multiple modalities."
5 And then it says, "In 2002 Literacy Links Sheryl
6 Lain with a Literacy Links team developed WYR for
7 struggling readers at the request of Dr. Robert Krisko,
8 assistant superintendent for Carbon County School District
9 Number 2. Dr. Krisko, also the special education director,
10 wanted a state-of-the-art intervention to grow the
11 district's most at-risk students to augment the Scott
12 Foresman textbook adoption. WYR began training all
13 interested teachers in Carbon 2, especially all the primary
14 and special education staff."
15 And then it says "Marie Clay" -- and I'm just
16 reading parts of it -- "Reading Recovery, an Observation
17 Survey, the international giant in reading research, is the
18 grandmother of WYR. WYR accelerates underachieving
19 students' growth, those with or without IEPS, through
20 daily, one-on-one tutoring for 30 minutes. Teachers and
21 students follow a successful and consistent instructional
22 pattern, reversing reading failure, setting kids on a
23 positive pathway to success."
24 Now, that as the groundwork, WYR was formed
25 primarily upon the work of Marie Clay; is that correct?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 509
1 A. It is.
2 Q. Would it be appropriate -- my concern is is the
3 State of Wyoming using copyrighted materials that they
4 don't have permission to use or is it in the public domain
5 or should we be paying royalties? And what I don't want
6 and my concern is that the State of Wyoming, and not
7 through anyone's fault, but just that the State of Wyoming
8 should be paying royalties for copyrighted materials, and
9 it's not. And if that's the case, then maybe we need to do
10 some further legislative action to look at that. Do you
11 have any comment about that?
12 A. Speaker Lubnau, it's my understanding there's no
13 copyright issue whatsoever here, and so I hope I'm
14 answering the fullness of your question whether the
15 legislation should do something. But in this case this is
16 completely --
17 Q. I know you're a teacher, not a bureaucrat, but my
18 concern is -- and that's what the superintendent told me
19 out in the hallway. My concern is if we called Marie Clay
20 or the owners of the Reading Recovery copyright and said,
21 "Did you know we were using this and should we have been
22 paying royalties," are we confident that this isn't a
23 public domain and we shouldn't have been paying royalties?
24 A. Speaker Lubnau, you should be completely assured,
25 and it's gone through some scrutiny already. It is one --
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 510
1 WYR is one of the approved WDE SES programs as of like
2 2007, Supplemental Educational Service Program. So it is
3 approved by the WDE.
4 Q. I don't care if it's approved by the WDE.
5 A. But it went through the scrutiny and so forth.
6 So absolutely.
7 Q. So we've done the due diligence to make sure
8 we're not infringing someone's copyright? Okay.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Other questions,
10 Representative Throne.
11 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Thank you,
12 Mr. Speaker. I guess I'll leave the copyright issue alone.
13 I'd like to shift gears to personnel issues, not any
14 confidential personnel matters. When you were associated
15 with Superintendent Catchpole's administration, were you an
16 employee of the State of Wyoming?
17 A. I was not hired or employed. I was a contractor.
18 Q. So your tenure as an instructional leader for
19 Superintendent Hill was your first job in state government,
20 correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. How many people were under you in the Department
23 of Education?
24 A. How many did I supervise?
25 Q. Yes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 511
1 A. I think two and probably three, something like
2 that.
3 Q. But --
4 A. I'd have to go back and look.
5 Q. But in your chain weren't there more people than
6 that down, down the chain?
7 A. I would supervise, for example, Julie McGee, who
8 was the head of that division, and she had others she
9 supervised and so forth. I think I supervised three
10 people.
11 Q. When you became an employee of the State of
12 Wyoming, did you receive a copy of the personnel rules?
13 A. When I became employed, Speaker Lubnau, you know,
14 I cannot recall, but I think there was diligence on the
15 part of HR to do that. I do not know.
16 Q. Did you receive -- do you remember signing the
17 personnel rules?
18 A. I don't remember, but if it's protocol, I did.
19 Q. What about the governor's executive order on
20 ethics? Have you ever read that?
21 A. I hadn't read it until the MacPherson report. I
22 might have perused it or seen a cover, but, no, I had not
23 read it.
24 Q. So when you were responsible for supervising
25 Wyoming personnel and implementing Wyoming personnel rules,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 512
1 you had not reviewed the governor's order on ethics which I
2 believe has been in effect since 1997, and you weren't
3 familiar with that?
4 A. Speaker Lubnau.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yes, ma'am.
6 A. Representative Throne, here's the way I want to
7 characterize that.
8 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) I would prefer --
9 A. Do I recall getting the --
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: No, no, no. That's why we
11 run through the chair so we don't have these arguments.
12 I've been kind of giving some leeway here.
13 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) I'll just withdraw
14 that question. Going back to the personnel rules, what
15 steps did you take as a supervisor to ensure that the
16 personnel rules were followed in hiring, in compensation or
17 discipline?
18 A. Speaker Lubnau. Representative Throne, those
19 issues that I'm hearing I believe would be up to HR.
20 Personnel would be up to HR.
21 Q. Did you always comply with the personnel rules in
22 all aspects?
23 A. Speaker Lubnau. To my knowledge, yes.
24 Q. Have you read the personnel rules?
25 A. I believe so. If that was protocol then, I
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 513
1 believe I would have read them. I think that who would
2 have been responsible for me on that would have been -- who
3 would have checked would have been Karen Kelley, and I'm
4 sure she would have me do whatever was the correct protocol
5 for employees.
6 Q. Of course, Miss Kelley was only with the
7 Department a short time, and then she left. After she
8 left, what did you do to ensure that the personnel rules
9 were followed?
10 A. Anything -- Speaker Lubnau. Anything personnel I
11 would have taken directly to the people who had the
12 knowledge, and that would either have been Megan Meisen --
13 or John Shumway or Megan Meisen, whoever was HR.
14 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Lubnau, excuse
15 me, Speaker, you had asked that people go through you as
16 they're speaking to the witness, and given that this is not
17 adversarial, I would so appreciate it if Representative
18 Throne would do so. Thank you.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any other questions of
20 this witness? Representative Zwonitzer.
21 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Could you give me
22 the three, two or three people you referenced for us while
23 you were in WDE?
24 Mr. Chairman, can I be specific with my question?
25 Were you Kevin Lewis' direct supervisor?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 514
1 A. No, I was not.
2 Q. Never at any time during the --
3 A. I might have been later on. When we came in, no,
4 I was not. I believe the org chart I saw had Kevin Lewis
5 somewhere else in the org chart. Maybe later on. I'm
6 sorry, Speaker Lubnau, I don't have an org chart in front
7 of me. I haven't reviewed this ever, and so I don't know.
8 I'm not sure exactly who and when I supervised. It was in
9 the chain.
10 Q. Mr. Chairman.
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer.
12 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) So you don't
13 believe you ever had more than three or four people
14 directly in your chain of command that you supervised, but
15 you're not sure if you ever were told or saw an org chart
16 where you did or did not directly supervise Kevin Lewis?
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: You're going to love that
18 question when you read the transcript.
19 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Do you ever
20 specifically remember, Miss Lain, being the direct
21 supervisor for Kevin Lewis?
22 A. Speaker Lubnau. I would like to see an org
23 chart. I would like to see them as they evolved. Our
24 personnel changed and I would like to see the org chart
25 before I could answer definitively for you.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 515
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Miss Lain, the question
2 was do you remember.
3 THE WITNESS: No.
4 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: Okay, thank you.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: And I guess the answer was
7 no, and I'm just doing that to clear the record because we
8 talked on top of each other.
9 Any other questions for Miss Lain?
10 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Superintendent Hill has
11 provided me a list of questions. Has the Wyoming
12 Department of Education ever authorized the use of WYR by
13 districts implementing federally funded programs?
14 A. Would you repeat the question?
15 Q. Has the Wyoming Department of Education ever
16 authorized the use of WYR by districts implementing
17 federally funded programs?
18 A. The answer is yes.
19 Q. Do you know when this occurred?
20 A. I think that the supplemental educational
21 services piece came into effect in 2007.
22 Q. Who was the superintendent at that time?
23 A. Was 2007 Trent Blankenship? Or I'm not sure.
24 Q. Would this require a determination by the WDE
25 that WYR was research based?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 516
1 A. It would, yes.
2 Q. Your testimony indicates that a wide array of
3 protocols is helpful to meet the special needs of
4 individuals. Is this also an accurate characterization of
5 what then became SpLit training, a wide array of tools in
6 the tool kit?
7 A. Speaker Lubnau, yes, a wide array of tools.
8 Q. Have you located, learned of or been exposed to
9 any single reading intervention program or protocol that is
10 better than WYR?
11 A. Speaker Lubnau, I believe that, for example,
12 Reading Recovery in CLIP for what they do and the purpose
13 they have for first grade is better than WYR, but I don't
14 know of any other in Tier III intervention that is better.
15 Q. How do you determine what works best when
16 evaluating these reading protocols?
17 A. Research and then the evidence, and if students
18 grow, it's very strong evidence the protocol's worked.
19 Q. Did Wyoming reading scores improve during your
20 term at the WDE?
21 A. They did. They improved double digits in all
22 grade levels in reading.
23 Q. Was this normal growth, in your opinion?
24 A. It hasn't happened before.
25 Q. Was this true of general and special ed students?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 517
1 A. There was growth -- the double digits is regular
2 ed, special ed. Special ed had some remarkable change as
3 well, upper achievement scores. In one year they had 60
4 schools -- I believe in 2011 60 schools were in AYP trouble
5 in their subgroup, special education, and the next year in
6 2012, something like 40 some, a decline.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Those are all the
8 questions everybody has. Thank you, Miss Lain, for coming
9 and sharing the morning with us.
10 THE WITNESS: It's been my pleasure. Thank
11 you.
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Oh, I'm sure it was.
13 Counsel, call your next witness.
14 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, the next witness
15 is Trent Carroll.
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Carroll, if you would
17 come forward. Mr. Carroll, with your subpoena you received
18 an advisement. Did you have an opportunity to review that?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you understand it?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions?
23 THE WITNESS: No, I do not.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Would you stand and raise
25 your right hand, please.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 518
1 (Witness sworn.)
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thank you, Mr. Carroll.
3 Counsel.
4 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker.
5 TRENTCARROLL,
6 called for examination by the Select Investigative
7 Committee, being first duly sworn, on his oath testified as
8 follows:
9 EXAMINATION
10 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) Mr. Carroll, would you please
11 state your full name.
12 A. Yes. My name is Trent Daniel Carroll.
13 Q. I'm not sure how many of the prior witnesses you
14 had an opportunity to listen to, but I want to just briefly
15 go over a couple of items that will ensure that we have as
16 clear of a record as possible.
17 Obviously you see sitting in front of me a court
18 reporter who is transcribing all of your testimony today.
19 So it's important when you respond to a question that you
20 respond verbally as opposed to with nonverbal gestures or
21 shakes of the head, okay?
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. It's also important, as you saw Speaker Lubnau
24 remind everyone a few moments ago, that we do our best not
25 to speak over one another. So if you will let me finish my
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 519
1 question before you answer, I will do my best to let you
2 finish your answer before I ask another question, okay?
3 A. That sounds good.
4 Q. And probably the most important thing is if I ask
5 you a question that you don't understand, please ask me to
6 rephrase it, and you have an absolute right to be asked a
7 question that you understand, and I want to make sure
8 before you answer any questions I ask that you understand
9 it, okay?
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. So here's an easy one. Where do you currently
12 live?
13 A. I live here in Cheyenne.
14 Q. And how long have you lived here?
15 A. I've lived here almost 11 years.
16 Q. Will you tell the committee how you're currently
17 employed?
18 A. Yes. I'm an accounting supervisor at the
19 Department of Education.
20 Q. Is there a particular division within which
21 you're a supervisor?
22 A. Yes. In the finance division.
23 Q. How long have you been in that position?
24 A. Since March of 2013, last March.
25 Q. How long have you worked for the Department of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 520
1 Education?
2 A. I started with the Department of Education in
3 June of 2003.
4 Q. Do you recall what your position was when you
5 first started?
6 A. Yes. When I first started I was hired into a
7 position to basically coordinate travel accommodations for
8 Department staff and process their travel claims.
9 Q. What was your position immediately prior to
10 becoming the accounting supervisor in the finance division?
11 A. I was a senior accounting analyst.
12 Q. And when did you start that position?
13 A. November of 2010.
14 Q. Will you summarize for the committee your
15 educational background?
16 A. Yes. I attended LCCC here in Cheyenne, and I
17 have a business degree from the University of Wyoming.
18 Q. And will you also briefly summarize to the extent
19 you haven't already your employment history?
20 A. Yes. I started with the Department in 2003, and
21 prior to that I was a full-time student.
22 Q. What are your primary responsibilities in your
23 current position with the Department?
24 A. I currently supervise three employees. I receive
25 multiple programs in finance, including agency internal
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 521
1 controls, department of contracts, accounts payable, fixed
2 assets, fiscal training for agency staff, audit
3 coordination and response, agency budget preparation and
4 other accounting functions.
5 Q. And are those duties different than -- I assume
6 those duties are different than the ones you had before you
7 became a supervisor.
8 A. They are slightly different.
9 Q. What were your duties before you became a
10 supervisor?
11 A. My previous duties included various accounts
12 payable, budget encumbrances for contracts and purchase
13 orders, accounts receivable for federal funds, fiscal
14 training, assisting with the processing of agency contracts
15 and various other accounting functions.
16 Q. What was the chain of command above you before
17 you became a supervisor?
18 A. The head of section supervisor above me, Greg
19 Hansen, the CFO at the time, Fred Hansen, Deputy John
20 Masters, and Superintendent Hill.
21 Q. And what is it now?
22 A. Now I report directly to CFO Dianne Bailey, and
23 she reports to the agency director, Rich Crandall.
24 Q. I want to direct your attention to some issues
25 that I understand you were involved in with respect to a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 522
1 contract between the State of Wyoming and an individual by
2 the name of Paul Williams and his company Corporation for
3 Measurements and Statistics. Do you recall an issue
4 related to Mr. Williams?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Will you turn to Exhibit 1 in the exhibit
7 notebook in front of you? Behind the tabs with your name
8 on them, so it would be Carroll Exhibit Number 1.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. You're there faster than me. Give me just a
11 second. You do recognize that document?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And what is it?
14 A. This is a sole source memo written by Sheryl Lain
15 for a contract with Mr. Williams.
16 Q. If you look at Carroll Exhibit Number 1, the
17 first three paragraphs appear to be in a different type
18 face or font than the last four paragraphs. Do you see
19 that?
20 A. I do see that.
21 Q. Can you explain, if you know, the difference
22 between the paragraphs?
23 A. Yeah. The second paragraphs -- or the second
24 paragraph, the lower portion of the page there, represent
25 notes that I made for the file after several payments were
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 523
1 made.
2 Q. And so to be clear, the last four paragraphs that
3 are in different type face are paragraphs that you
4 authored?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The original memo without your typewritten notes,
7 is that a document that is kept somewhere in the State of
8 Wyoming files?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. Pursuant to the original contract with
11 Mr. Williams, what was the monthly rate of pay to
12 Mr. Williams?
13 A. Per the original contract, the monthly rate of
14 pay was $11,477.78.
15 Q. And are you able to tell or do you know when the
16 contract became effective?
17 A. Yes, I do know. It was August 16, 2011.
18 Q. And is it your understanding, and it appears to
19 be based upon your typewritten notes, that at some point in
20 time, various points in time the contract was amended? Do
21 you have any knowledge about that?
22 A. Yes, I do. The contract was amended three times.
23 Q. Would you describe for the committee what you
24 know or what you can tell about those amendments.
25 A. Sure. The first amendment to the contract added
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 524
1 $30,000 for travel. The second amendment added 73,170 for
2 excess hours. The third amendment added $13,770 for excess
3 hours.
4 Q. When, to your knowledge, did the second amendment
5 adding $73,170 for excess hours become effective?
6 A. That was to commence on March 1, 2012.
7 Q. And then the same question for the third
8 amendment.
9 A. Yes, the third amendment became effective on
10 September 11, 2012.
11 Q. Will you now please turn to Exhibit 2 behind the
12 Carroll tab in the notebook. What is this document, if you
13 know?
14 A. This is a memo from Christine Steele regarding
15 the payment that we received.
16 Q. There's a memo that's a part of Exhibit Number 2.
17 Is that on the second page or --
18 A. I'm sorry, I flipped to the second page. The
19 first page is the payment voucher, the page that we would
20 have received with an invoice.
21 Q. The payment voucher that comprises the first page
22 of Carroll Exhibit 2 seeks payment of an invoice that's
23 attached for Mr. Williams for excess hours in the amount of
24 $26,370 for hours in August, September, October, November
25 and December of 2011, correct?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 525
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Hours that occurred or hours in which
3 Mr. Williams worked overtime prior to the second and third
4 amendments to the contract that you previously testified
5 about?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Do you recall that sometime in March or April
8 your division received this voucher and the invoice that's
9 attached to the voucher at page 3 from an individual by the
10 name of Jude Serrano?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. And will you tell the committee who Jude Serrano
13 is?
14 A. She worked in the assessment division, and I
15 believe she served in like a support function.
16 Q. Who within your division or your group first
17 received the voucher and the invoice from Mr. Williams?
18 A. In the finance division, Grady Prince received
19 this voucher. He's responsible for the first-level review
20 any contract payments, and he enters the document into
21 WOLFS, the state accounting system.
22 Q. Does Mr. Prince share an office with you and
23 previously with Mr. Hansen?
24 A. Yes. At the time I shared an office with both
25 Grady Prince and Greg Hansen.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 526
1 Q. When you first received the payment voucher,
2 which is page 1 of Exhibit 2, and the invoice, which is
3 page 3 of Exhibit 2, you did not receive the memorandum
4 from Christine Steele, which is page 2 of the exhibit,
5 correct?
6 A. That'scorrect.
7 Q. And so to be clear, what your division first
8 received was the voucher and the invoice, correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And then was the voucher and invoice processed
11 for payment upon receipt?
12 A. No,itwasnot.
13 Q. And will you tell the committee why not?
14 A. When we first received this, Grady reviewed it.
15 He had questions and concerns about the invoice, and he
16 showed it to me and Greg. We reviewed the documents, and
17 we all agreed that we should return the voucher to the
18 assessment division and request a memo with additional
19 explanation.
20 Q. Were you requesting a memo with additional
21 explanation because your division's review of the contract
22 did not provide you with sufficient justification to pay
23 the voucher and the invoice?
24 A. That'scorrect.
25 Q. Did Mr. Hansen then document your division to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 527
1 return the invoice and the voucher unpaid in an e-mail to
2 the three of you that were involved in that decision?
3 A. Yes, he did.
4 Q. Will you please take a look at Exhibit Number 3.
5 If you look at Exhibit Number 3, you'll see that it's a
6 series of e-mails from Greg Hansen to you. Do you see
7 that?
8 A. I see it.
9 Q. And he sent -- the first e-mail chronologically
10 is an e-mail dated April 4, 2012. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And he documents a conversation with Miss Serrano
13 returning the voucher and the invoice for nonpayment. Do
14 you see that?
15 A. I see it.
16 Q. And does it seem to you, is your recollection
17 that the conversation about paying the voucher and then
18 returning the voucher unpaid happened around the early part
19 of April of 2012?
20 A. Yes, it would have been around that time.
21 Q. And I think you testified you returned the
22 voucher and the invoice and sought some kind of a memo
23 before you would reconsider whether to pay it or not. Is
24 that accurate?
25 A. Yes. We asked for additional explanation
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 528
1 regarding the excess hours on this invoice.
2 Q. And then you did eventually receive some kind of
3 a memo with an explanation, correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And that memo is, turning back to Exhibit Number
6 2, the second page of Exhibit Number 2, correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. This is a memorandum that's dated April 20, 2012
9 to finance from Christine Steele, instructional leader,
10 Wyoming Department of Education, correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. This was the kind of memo that you were seeking
13 before the voucher and invoice could be paid?
14 A. Yes. This was in response to our request for
15 additional information.
16 Q. I'm going to ask you to do this slowly because we
17 have a court reporter, but will you please read the last
18 paragraph of Ms. Steele's memorandum to you asking that
19 finance process the invoice for payment.
20 A. "It is understood the services not covered under
21 the original contract were rendered prior to the execution
22 date of Amendment Number 2 and that paying this invoice
23 would cause the Wyoming Department of Education to be out
24 of compliance with state and federal guidance and, should
25 this be identified in a state or federal audit, will result
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 529
1 in an audit finding with resolution required and monitoring
2 by auditors on this issue for three years to follow. Thank
3 you for your cooperation and please let me know if there
4 are any questions."
5 Q. Prior to Superintendent Hill's administration,
6 had you ever received a memorandum that included this type
7 of language acknowledging that a payment that you're being
8 told to make will result in audit findings?
9 A. I don't remember any.
10 Q. After reviewing this memorandum, did your
11 division then immediately process the invoice and the
12 vouchers for payment or did you still have concerns?
13 A. No. After we received this memo, we had even
14 greater concerns.
15 Q. And what did you do as a result?
16 A. We met with Fred Hansen, our CFO. We showed him
17 the memo, and we explained our concerns. Fred said he
18 would discuss it with John Masters. He later returned and
19 said both John Masters and Superintendent Hill were aware
20 of our concerns and that we were to process the payment.
21 Q. I want to make sure that we're clear on that
22 point. Mr. Hansen communicated to you that he had taken
23 your concerns to both John Masters and Superintendent Hill
24 and that they were aware of your concerns, but you were
25 directed to pay the voucher and the invoice?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 530
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then was it eventually processed for payment?
3 A. Yes. We processed it on April 23rd.
4 Q. Had your concerns about that payment been
5 alleviated since it happened?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you document or did Greg document or did both
8 of you document the concerns that you had with respect to
9 being directed to make this payment?
10 A. Yes. Greg sent us an e-mail documenting what had
11 happened for us to use as a permanent record.
12 Q. And that would be part of the same page of
13 e-mails that comprises Exhibit Number 3, correct?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. That's the e-mail dated April 23, 2012 which Greg
16 Hansen wrote and reads, "Today they gave us this payment to
17 process, 12GP-780. We told Fred and he made sure Cindy and
18 Joan were aware of this payment. It will be processed as
19 they requested, but against our recommendation." Correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. You received that e-mail from Mr. Hansen.
22 A. I did.
23 Q. Why did you then and why do you now still have
24 concerns about paying that voucher and that invoice?
25 A. My main concern is that this payment was
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 531
1 requested from federal funds. The memo from Mrs. Steele
2 indicated that paying this invoice would cause a state and
3 federal compliance issue. At the time Mrs. Steele was the
4 deputy over the federal programs division and had
5 previously been the director of the federal programs
6 division. She was familiar with the rules and requirements
7 of federal funds. It didn't seem right to process a
8 payment that she believed would cause a compliance issue.
9 Q. Will you now turn to Exhibit Number 4 behind the
10 Carroll tab. You do recognize this as a similar State of
11 Wyoming payment voucher with a memorandum from Ms. Steele
12 and then another invoice from Mr. Williams?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This payment voucher seeks payment of the
15 attached invoice from Mr. Williams for $21,870 for excess
16 hours in January, February and March 2011?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And did the same thing happen with respect to
19 this voucher? And when I say that, I mean did your
20 division object to paying the voucher but you were
21 instructed to do so otherwise?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. As with the first voucher, you received a
24 memorandum from Mrs. Steele, and that's the second page of
25 this exhibit, correct?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 532
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And the last -- I shouldn't say the last
3 paragraph. There's a sentence that comprises the last
4 paragraph, but above it, there's a paragraph that starts,
5 "It is understood that services not covered under the
6 original contract were rendered prior to the execution
7 date...." Do you see that paragraph?
8 A. Idoseeit.
9 Q. And that's identical to the paragraph that you
10 received in the first memorandum where Mrs. Steele
11 acknowledges that payment of the voucher and the invoice
12 will lead to audit findings, correct?
13 A. Yes, that's the same wording.
14 Q. But you again then processed this voucher and
15 invoice for payment?
16 A. Yes, we did.
17 Q. And was that done again over your objection?
18 A. Yes. We objected to this one just as we had
19 previous.
20 Q. And that was again documented in an e-mail from
21 the three of you, correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And then if we turn back to Exhibit Number 3, the
24 very top e-mail on the page is Mr. Hansen's e-mail to the
25 three of you documenting that concern where he writes,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 533
1 "Today we received a second payment with the same
2 circumstances. We notified Fred. Our position remains the
3 same." Correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know whether the payments to
6 Mr. Williams -- you may have said this already. But were
7 the payments to Mr. Williams that were made over the
8 finance division's objections made using federal funds?
9 A. Yes, they were.
10 Q. And how do you know that?
11 A. We use a unique four-digit number for each
12 program budget. Budget numbers beginning with 63 are used
13 for our federal funds. Budget listed on these payments is
14 our federal assessment budget.
15 Q. And so if you look at Exhibit Number 2 and
16 Exhibit Number 4, is there somewhere on the vouchers or the
17 invoices or the memorandum from Mrs. Steele that shows that
18 federal budget number?
19 A. Yes. It's listed on the first page of the
20 exhibit, the WOLFS 103 payment voucher. And you'll see
21 there's a section, and I know it's kind of small there,
22 underneath Budget, and it has a string of numbers. The
23 ones listed as the org number 6373 is what identifies this
24 as our federal assessment budget.
25 Q. And so that's how you can tell that the payments
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 534
1 for Mr. Williams' overtime invoices that you objected to
2 were made using federal funds?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. Do you know how much the Department of Education
5 paid Mr. Williams in total from August of 2011 until
6 October of 2012?
7 A. Yes. In a little over a year we paid
8 Mr. Williams $262,618.
9 Q. And do you know how much of that was overtime?
10 A. Yes, $86,550.
11 Q. I now want to turn your attention to an
12 expenditure report that you were involved in generating for
13 the Joint Appropriations Committee. Do you remember doing
14 that?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. That was in late 2012?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And when I say "expenditure report," can you
19 describe for the committee -- you and I know what we're
20 talking about, but can you explain to the committee what
21 kind of expenditure report you put together for the Joint
22 Appropriations Committee?
23 A. Yes, this was a report of all 600 and 900 series
24 payments. This report was requested in advance of our
25 Joint Appropriations Committee budget hearing on December
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 535
1 14, 2012.
2 Q. What is a -- you said it was a report of all 600
3 and 900 series payments. What is a 600 series payment?
4 A. 600 series payments are grant payments, and 900
5 series payments are for contract professional services
6 payments.
7 Q. So a 900 series payment -- we've heard some
8 testimony during the course of this hearing about
9 independent contractors who were contracted with the
10 Department. A 900 series payment, an example of that would
11 be a payment made for an independent contractor working for
12 the Department.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And I think you said or I said, but please verify
15 for me, the report was requested by the Joint
16 Appropriations Committee?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. And then how is it that you came to generate the
19 report? Did the Joint Appropriations Committee ask you
20 directly or was it assigned to you by someone?
21 A. They submitted a request to our agency. Fred
22 Hansen assigned the task to me and Greg Hansen to complete.
23 Q. And will you explain to the committee what it is
24 that you did to complete that report?
25 A. Yes. We downloaded the information for the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 536
1 report from our budget management system. It's an internal
2 database that houses WOLFS accounting files. We created
3 the report using that information, and we sent the report
4 to Fred Hansen.
5 Q. Not specifically, but generally, what were the
6 categories that were included in the draft report that you
7 sent to Mr. Hansen?
8 A. The first draft that we completed for this
9 included the payment totals listed by vendor from July 1,
10 2010 through October 31, 2012.
11 Q. Did it include the specific invoices that were
12 paid to each vendor or was it just a summary of the total
13 amount paid to each vendor?
14 A. It was a summary of the total amount paid.
15 Q. And you downloaded that information from the
16 WOLFS system?
17 A. We downloaded it from an internal database that
18 uses WOLFS files. We import WOLFS files directly into our
19 database.
20 Q. Did you or did someone within your division then
21 submit the first draft of the expenditure report to the LSO
22 and receive some feedback asking for more information?
23 A. Yes. We sent the report to Fred Hansen. He
24 reviewed it, and he sent it to the LSO. The LSO requested
25 that we add a brief description of the payments made to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 537
1 each vendor.
2 Q. And then so then did you do that?
3 A. We did.
4 Q. And how did you go about adding that information
5 to the report? Was it again a download?
6 A. It was. We downloaded information from our
7 budget management system.
8 Q. To be clear, because I know what I mean and I
9 don't know -- I think you know what I mean, but what I'm
10 asking you, if you download the information, what I want to
11 know is did you actually type yourself information from the
12 system into the expenditure report or was this a process of
13 you running some kind of a script or request within the
14 budget system and then it essentially spits the information
15 into a report for you?
16 A. Our budget management system is a Microsoft
17 access database, and we have a user interface that allows
18 us to export information in the database into an
19 Excel document, and that's what we did.
20 Q. Then at some point in time did the Joint
21 Appropriations Committee request that you add additional
22 information to the expenditure report?
23 A. Yes. At our budget hearing the Joint
24 Appropriations Committee requested we list each payment by
25 date and include budget unit with the source of funding
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 538
1 like general fund, federal fund, foundation funds.
2 Q. So when you had -- when you had your first budget
3 hearing with the Joint Appropriations Committee, you're now
4 on essentially for you your second draft of the expenditure
5 report, but the draft that you have presented to the Joint
6 Appropriations Committee does not include line-by-line
7 invoices and payments. It still just includes a summary of
8 the payments that were made to the vendors; is that right?
9 A. That was the initial report.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. The LSO had requested that we add a line
12 description and break it down line by line, and that's what
13 we had given them prior to our budget hearing.
14 Q. Okay. Will you turn to Exhibit Number 5 behind
15 the Carroll tab. Do you recognize Exhibit Number 5 as the
16 first expenditure report that included the information
17 requested by the Joint Appropriations Committee?
18 A. This is the first version of the report that
19 includes the line description information.
20 Q. Okay. If you will look at page -- let's start at
21 page 32. There should be -- I don't know if there are tabs
22 in your notebook or not. I know mine are tabbed. So it
23 would be the first tab in the expenditure report.
24 And to make sure that the committee and the
25 witness are all on the same page, the page that I want to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 539
1 direct your attention to, the first line entry on this page
2 is a 12-15-2010 payment to Jill J. Bramlet in the amount of
3 $3,360. Do you see that?
4 A. I see it.
5 Q. Okay. Beginning on that page and then going
6 further through the report, do you see various references
7 to T2T in the expenditure report?
8 A. Yes, I see one there at the bottom of that page.
9 I see several on the next page.
10 Q. And so when you say "at the bottom of that page,"
11 you're referencing the February 9, 2012 payment. It's a
12 small amount of $35.75 to Jane Brutsman, and the reference
13 is "January 16, 2012 travel for contract services invoice
14 T2T 2," correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And then you said that you continue to see
17 references to T2T throughout the expenditure report?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If you would turn to Exhibit -- or I'm sorry, to
20 page 39 of that same exhibit. It should be the second tab.
21 The tab says, "T2T Enzi." Are you there?
22 A. Yes, I think so.
23 Q. Well, let's -- here's how we'll make sure. You
24 do see a series of payments made to Amy Enzi that all
25 reference T2T?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 540
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Included is an April 30, 2012 payment of $9,000
3 for March, April 2012 contract services?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And I don't want to go through this in
6 excruciating detail, but as another example there's a third
7 tab in the expenditure report. If you would turn to that,
8 page 68. Are you there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you see a series of payments that were made to
11 an individual named Theresa Jansen Kolf, K-o-l-f, many of
12 which reference SpLit?
13 A. Yes, I see them.
14 Q. The last two payments made to Miss Kolf are on
15 September 20, 2012 for August 2012 work?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then you've also seen in this or you can also
18 see in this expenditure report references to 3+8 at various
19 points, correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Sometime after you submitted this initial report
22 or drafted it, you submitted it to Fred Hansen, correct?
23 A. That's correct. I note to Fred Hansen on
24 September 18th, and he e-mailed it to the LSO on the same
25 day.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 541
1 Q. And if you will turn to Exhibit Number 6.
2 There's an e-mail on Exhibit Number 6 where Mr. Hansen, on
3 December 19, 2012, forwards the report of the division
4 director to division directors and explains he plans to
5 review it with Superintendent Hill, correct?
6 A. Yes, I see the e-mail from Greg Hansen to Fred
7 Hansen on the 19th and then from Fred to the division
8 directors.
9 Q. Did you ever receive an e-mail from Mr. Hansen
10 the following day asking you to attend a meeting in
11 Mr. Masters' office?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Will you look at Exhibit Number 7. Is this the
14 e-mail that you received?
15 A. This is the e-mail.
16 Q. The e-mail at the top from Mr. Hansen dated
17 December 20, 2012 at 2:29 p.m. where he says, "Greg and
18 Trent, please join us at 4 p.m. today in John's office,"
19 right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Hansen forwarded you an e-mail from
22 Mr. Masters that he had sent to Christine Steele, Sheryl
23 Lain and Fred Hansen. Do you see that?
24 A. Yes, I see it.
25 Q. And you received -- tell me, did you receive this
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 542
1 forwarded message from Mr. Masters which reads, "Folks,
2 Cindy would like us to get together and discuss this
3 report. She would like to use historical language, budget
4 narrative language and statutory language in the
5 description columns rather than the terms such as 3+8 or
6 teacher 2 teacher or SpLit"?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You received that?
9 A. I did receive it.
10 Q. Did you then meet with Mr. Hansen and others that
11 afternoon at four o'clock as he asked you to do in his
12 e-mail?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And who else was at that meeting?
15 A. Superintendent Hill, John Masters, Sheryl Lain,
16 Christine Steele, Greg Hansen and Fred Hansen.
17 Q. And please tell the committee what happened in
18 that meeting.
19 A. There were concerns raised about using certain
20 terms in the report. I don't remember everything that was
21 said. But Greg and I were instructed to remove certain
22 terms, including T2T, SpLit and 3+8. I specifically recall
23 Sheryl Lain telling us to take out any references to Wy
24 Read and WYR, WYR.
25 Q. Did you respond to those instructions?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 543
1 A. I made a list of the items we were to remove. I
2 remember Greg Hansen cautioned everyone that the revised
3 report would not match the first drafts that we had already
4 sent to LSO or the payment documents in WOLFS. He said the
5 report should match the descriptions from the source
6 documents.
7 Q. Did you have the same concerns as Mr. Hansen that
8 this subsequent draft of the report was not going to match
9 up with the first draft or with the information that was in
10 the WOLFS system?
11 A. Yes, I had those same concerns.
12 Q. What did you do? Did you follow the instructions
13 or not?
14 A. Yeah. We left the meeting with the instructions
15 to change the line descriptions. We talked about it and we
16 started to remove the line descriptions. We used the
17 search function in Excel to identify them and we took them
18 out.
19 Q. Can you be a little bit more specific? You say
20 you used the search function in Excel. Did you just do a
21 search for those terms?
22 A. Yeah, for the terms on the list that I had made
23 from the meeting.
24 Q. And then you deleted them from the report or did
25 you replace them with something else?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 544
1 A. I don't remember for sure if we manually deleted
2 or if we did a find and replace with nothing. That would
3 be another way we may have done it.
4 Q. But you do know what you did do was to take
5 references to all of the terms that you had been told to
6 take out of the expenditure report out, correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And then when you completed this next draft of
9 the expenditure report, did you give it to anyone?
10 A. Yes. We were told to print a hard copy of the
11 report for John Masters and Superintendent Hill, and we did
12 so.
13 Q. Will you look at what is marked as Exhibit Number
14 8 behind your tab. Is this the final report that you
15 generated after you had deleted the terms that you were
16 told to delete?
17 A. It looks like the final report, yes.
18 Q. Does Exhibit 8 contain any references to T2T or
19 SpLit or 3+8 or WYR?
20 A. I don't believe it does.
21 Q. So, for example, if you turn to the one page
22 that's tabbed in Exhibit 8, we have the invoices that were
23 paid to Amy Enzi, and these are the same invoices and
24 payments that are reflected in the first draft of this
25 expenditure report that we looked at, correct?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 545
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And if you look where this report used to
3 reference these payments being made for T2T, all of the
4 references to T2T have been deleted.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you did that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. At the instruction of the individuals that
9 attended the meeting with Mr. Hansen, and that would be
10 Superintendent Hill, Mr. Masters, Mrs. Steele, correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Does that bother you?
13 A. It does bother me. It bothers me that we were
14 asked to change items that we had generated directly from
15 the WOLFS accounting system. I expressed my concern at the
16 time to both Greg Hansen and Fred Hansen.
17 Q. Does it still bother you today?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is one of your duties at the Department to
20 oversee audits?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. And how long has that been one of your
23 responsibilities?
24 A. Since March of last year, 2013.
25 Q. Is the Department currently undergoing an audit
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 546
1 or waiting for audit results?
2 A. Yes, we are. Yes.
3 Q. Have you seen any of the testimony where
4 witnesses were asked whether there have been any audits
5 that have taken place -- and I think all of the witnesses
6 have testified that they're not aware that there have been
7 any audits or they don't know the status of any audits.
8 Have you heard any of that testimony?
9 A. Yes, I have.
10 Q. Do you know that there is an audit that's
11 currently taking place?
12 A. Yes, there is. It's our federal funds A-133.
13 Q. And will you describe for the committee what an
14 A-133 audit is?
15 A. Yes. It's an audit that's required for any
16 recipient of federal funds that expends $500,000 to anyone.
17 Q. What role have you played or are you playing in
18 that audit?
19 A. I basically gathered documents that are requested
20 in the audit samples. I try to assist the auditors with
21 any questions that they have.
22 Q. Did you have an opportunity early in the audit
23 process to meet with the auditors?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Who was there?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 547
1 A. My boss, Dianne Bailey, and from the audit firm
2 Robert Dahill, Brad Bowen and Alex Vissor.
3 Q. And do you recall when that occurred?
4 A. I believe it was in September, last September.
5 Q. During the audit, did the auditors question you
6 or anyone else within the Department with respect to either
7 of the issues that we've talked about today, the Paul
8 Williams contract or the expenditure report?
9 A. Yes. They asked me some questions about the Paul
10 Williams changes.
11 Q. And did you answer those questions to them
12 truthfully?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Were those the same kinds of questions I've asked
15 you about today?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you provided them with the same answers that
18 you've provided us today?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Those are all the questions that I have,
21 Mr. Carroll, but Ms. -- or I'm sorry, Superintendent Hill
22 has submitted a list of questions that I will now ask you
23 with Mr. Speaker's permission.
24 May I proceed?
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yes, sir.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 548
1 MR. JAROSH: Thank you.
2 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) Mr. Carroll, are you familiar
3 with the penalties for perjury and that you are subject to
4 those penalties should you provide false testimony?
5 A. Yes, I am.
6 Q. Did you speak with anyone prior to today about
7 your testimony before this committee, including Mr. Jarosh,
8 Mr. Salzburg, or representatives from their firms, members
9 of the legislature or other staff or employees of the
10 State, such as the Governor's Office or the Wyoming
11 Department of Education regarding these proceedings today
12 or Senate File 104?
13 A. Yes, I spoke with you, Mr. Jarosh, a few weeks
14 ago. I talked about this with several WDE employees over
15 the past few days.
16 Q. When did you speak with me?
17 A. I don't remember the exact date. But it was a
18 few weeks ago, I believe, in December.
19 Q. And will you describe in detail the substance of
20 the conversation and tell the committee how long that
21 conversation lasted?
22 A. Yes. We went over several questions, very
23 similar to what we've done today. I provided answers and
24 you made notes while I was providing that testimony. I
25 asked you to send me a follow-up e-mail with that
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 549
1 information and you did so. I believe the meeting was from
2 one to two hours probably.
3 Q. Was there anyone else at the meeting?
4 A. Yes. Dianne Bailey was with me.
5 Q. Did I or anyone on my behalf instruct you that
6 your testimony today must be truthful and, if based on
7 speculation, conjecture or opinion, must be stated as such?
8 A. You instructed me that my testimony must be
9 truthful.
10 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence
11 relating to your testimony?
12 A. Only the documents and the exhibits we've
13 reviewed.
14 Q. And those are all documents that are contained
15 within the Department of Education's files with the State
16 of Wyoming?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. You've provided those documents to the committee
19 and to the superintendent?
20 A. I provided those documents to the committee.
21 Q. But not to the superintendent directly?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were you interviewed as part of the MacPherson
24 report?
25 A. No.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 550
1 Q. I'm not going to ask you any of the follow-up
2 questions that Superintendent Hill submitted with respect
3 to the MacPherson report.
4 I have a couple more specific preliminary
5 questions that Superintendent Hill submitted for you.
6 Again, these are Superintendent Hill's questions. Did you
7 assist in calculating the amounts to transfer to the
8 education testing and assessment account at the Auditor's
9 Office?
10 A. I don't remember for sure. I may have assisted.
11 I know that it was not my primary responsibility.
12 Q. Was that done in conjunction with Mary Kay Hill
13 of the Governor's Office and personnel from both LSO and
14 A&I?
15 A. I'm sure that it would have -- we would have had
16 to submit those requests through the A&I budget office.
17 Q. Did all come to agreement on the amount to be
18 transferred?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Did you monitor and recommend amounts to be
21 submitted for payment from the ETA account?
22 A. I'm sorry, can you repeat that?
23 Q. Yes. Did you monitor and recommend amounts to be
24 submitted for payment from the ETA account?
25 A. I guess I'm not entirely sure what that question
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 551
1 is asking, but since the ETA account was established we
2 have a process where we submit a quarterly request through
3 the A&I budget office to the Governor's Office for funds,
4 and after the ETA account was established, that was Greg
5 Hansen's responsibility, and it became my responsibility
6 last March. And I have received those requests and
7 submitted those requests. That's the extent of my
8 involvement.
9 Q. Did you receive and review the audit of the
10 amounts paid from that account?
11 A. I'msorry,canyourepeatit?
12 Q. Did you receive and review the audit of the
13 amounts paid from that account?
14 A. I'm not sure what that's referring to. I know
15 that there was an audit conducted of our assessment
16 budgets, and I did review portions of that. I'm not
17 extremely familiar with the report.
18 Q. Were you involved in the development of the B-11
19 for alignment of positions for funding sources?
20 A. Involvement is pretty loose. I'm sure that I
21 assisted in some regard in some of the preparation that
22 went into that. Greg Hansen was the one that drafted the
23 B-11, and it was submitted to Superintendent Hill.
24 Q. Was the work you submitted consistent with the
25 instructions the Department had received from A&I budget
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 552
1 office and others?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Was your office discouraged from doing several
4 smaller groups of B-11 realignments and instead directed to
5 do one large comprehensive request?
6 A. I recall that we were directed to submit a
7 request on one B-11 so that everyone involved in reviewing
8 the request would have a better idea of the big picture.
9 Q. What became of that B-11 request?
10 A. I believe it was rejected by the Governor's
11 Office.
12 Q. For the sake of full disclosure, I think this is
13 meant to be an answer to the question. It says, "It was
14 rejected by the Governor's Office for being too
15 complicated." That's submitted as a question, but that's
16 the answer that you just gave, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Did Mary Kay Hill communicate this rejection to
19 the Wyoming Department of Education?
20 A. I know that there's a check box on the B-11 form,
21 and if it's approved, that box will be checked, and if it's
22 rejected, that box will be checked. I don't know about any
23 other communication.
24 Q. Did she provide any alternatives for the Wyoming
25 Department of Education to consider?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 553
1 A. I'm not sure.
2 Q. Mr. Speaker, one moment.
3 Mr. Carroll, I have a couple follow-up questions.
4 I noticed during your testimony today that several times
5 you looked down and appeared to be reading from a document;
6 is that correct?
7 A. That's correct. I have some notes here for
8 myself.
9 Q. And the notes that you have, you and I talked in
10 advance of today about what you would be testifying about
11 today, correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And you drafted answers to my questions for me,
14 correct?
15 A. That's correct.
16 MR. JAROSH: Okay. Those are all the
17 questions that we have, Speaker.
18 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Speaker.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Just a minute.
20 Counsel, is there any reason that those notes
21 can't be delivered to -- actually the superintendent has
22 asked for those notes.
23 MR. JAROSH: No, there is no reason at all.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Carroll, if you would
25 make a copy of those notes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 554
1 Members of the Committee, it's five after 12:00.
2 Let's recess until 1:15, and then we will start with
3 committee questions at that point unless there's an
4 objection from somebody. Okay. We're in recess.
5 (Hearing proceedings recessed
6 12:05 p.m. to 1:15 p.m.)
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We're back on the record.
8 Committee, is there any objection to releasing Ms. Lain
9 from her subpoena?
10 Miss Lain, you're released. Thank you very much.
11 We were at that order of business questions from
12 the committee. Committee, do you have questions?
13 Representative Zwonitzer.
14 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thank you,
15 Mr. Chairman.
16 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
17 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Mr. Carroll, so
18 when you edited these accounting records, I guess my
19 question is fundamentally did you know what you were doing
20 was wrong? And then more specifically, do you know why the
21 problems -- were you aware of the legislative history and
22 issues surrounding these bills or did you just know the
23 management team said do this?
24 A. Mr. Chairman. I was aware of some of the issues
25 with regards to T2T and the budget footnote from the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 555
1 previous legislative session. It wasn't exactly clear to
2 me -- not all details were exactly clear to me regarding
3 that.
4 In that meeting, it was clear to me that
5 Superintendent Hill and the leadership wanted us to remove
6 those items from the report, and so that's what we did.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer.
8 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) During any time
9 under that administration, were there other -- I call
10 them like GAAP, there's rules of regulations, generally
11 accepted accounting principles, other infractions of the
12 rules take place? In other words, were these a couple of
13 limited instances or did you feel like there were things
14 that were always a little fuzzy?
15 A. Mr. Chairman, I can only answer that question
16 with regard to the financial activities I was involved
17 with. There are a lot of payments that we process in
18 finance, and several different staff are involved in making
19 those payments.
20 I'm sorry, that's not really a clear answer, but
21 with regard to my testimony today, that's really all I can
22 speak to.
23 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Mr. Carroll, have you ever
24 been asked to scrub a report to the legislature before?
25 A. No, Mr. Chairman. We are frequently asked to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 556
1 make changes to reports, and usually it's to include
2 additional information. I don't remember ever acting as a
3 filter or disguising information in any way.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer.
5 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) I'm not sure if it
6 is you, Mr. Carroll, or someone within the Department would
7 know when the sole source contract came out between Sheryl
8 Lain and Shan Anderson. Did anyone in the finance
9 department pick up on it or any -- I assume it went through
10 you or someone in your agency. Do you remember the time if
11 anybody knew that it was a family member as a party to the
12 contract?
13 A. Mr. Chairman, that contract would have come
14 through my section, but we were not aware at the time of
15 the relationship between Shan Anderson and Sheryl Lain.
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Stubson.
17 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Thank you,
18 Mr. Chairman.
19 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON) Mr. Carroll, I
20 wanted to ask you a few questions, but to start off, you
21 had mentioned right before we broke that you had -- some of
22 your testimony this morning came from notes that you
23 brought with you. Do you recall that testimony?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. And, Mr. Chairman. Did anyone help you to draft
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 557
1 those answers?
2 A. Mr. Chairman. Absolutely not.
3 Q. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Carroll, are those answers --
4 and I know they're going to be provided to folks -- were
5 those your answers and yours alone?
6 A. Mr. Chairman. Yes.
7 Q. Did -- you had talked -- well, let me ask you
8 about this. Are you familiar with effort logs that are
9 kept within the Department of Administration?
10 A. Mr. Chairman. I am familiar with time and effort
11 logs.
12 Q. And, Mr. Chairman, and, Mr. Carroll, can you
13 describe for the committee just briefly what those are and
14 why they're kept?
15 A. Mr. Chairman. My understanding is that time and
16 effort logs are required for employees who are paid with
17 federal funds to record their activity for amount of work
18 of each program they are paid from.
19 Q. Okay. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Carroll, are those used
20 as sort of documentation to prove that the federal funds
21 are going to pay for employees doing activities, federal --
22 related to federal programs?
23 A. Mr. Chairman. That's my understanding.
24 Q. And, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Carroll, have you had an
25 opportunity as a part of your job to go through and review
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 558
1 and determine the accuracy or the -- to review those time
2 and effort logs to see if they accurately represent and
3 track federal time that are used on projects?
4 A. Mr. Chairman. I have not had the opportunity to
5 do that.
6 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Carroll, are you
7 familiar with the Wyoming Reading Council, that name?
8 A. Mr. Chairman. I do recognize that name.
9 Q. And where do you -- Mr. Chairman. Mr. Carroll,
10 where do you recognize that from?
11 A. Mr. Chairman. I believe Department of Education
12 had a contract with the Wyoming Reading Council.
13 Q. And Mr. Chairman. Mr. Carroll, did you in your
14 position handle payments to the Wyoming Reading Council on
15 behalf of the Department of Education?
16 A. Mr. Chairman. That isn't my primary
17 responsibility. But I do from time to time assist in a
18 backup capacity to perform a pre or post-audit on contract
19 payments.
20 Q. And, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Carroll, did you do that
21 in the case of the Wyoming Reading Council?
22 A. Mr. Chairman. I don't recall if I was involved
23 with payment on that contract.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Stubson, if
25 you have a whole list of questions, keep going. Don't
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 559
1 bother going through me.
2 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Thank you,
3 Mr. Chairman.
4 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Me next.
5 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON) Mr. Carroll, did you
6 gain any familiarity with payments to the Wyoming Reading
7 Council and what those were used for by the Wyoming Reading
8 Council?
9 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Stubson, I'm not
10 really familiar with those payments. I know that there
11 were some payments made related to that contract, but I
12 don't remember the specifics.
13 Q. Were you familiar with the vendors that the
14 Wyoming Reading Council was using?
15 A. Mr. Chairman. I don't recall who those vendors
16 were. There were several.
17 Q. Mr. Carroll, do you recall whether those were the
18 same vendors that were being used for the T2T and SpLit
19 programs?
20 A. Mr. Chairman. They may very well have been. I
21 don't recall.
22 Q. Mr. Carroll, you talked about the Paul Williams
23 contract, and I was just wondering, we went through the
24 letters from your supervisors regarding the potential audit
25 findings. I was just curious, did you ever receive any
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 560
1 other such notifications regarding any of your actions from
2 your supervisors or from the leadership team that they may
3 result in an audit finding?
4 A. Mr. Chairman. I believe there were several memos
5 submitted from Superintendent Hill's leadership for various
6 situations that may have included that wording.
7 Q. And, Mr. Carroll, were those typically in
8 situations where you had rejected an invoice in the first
9 instance and needed more documentary support as in this,
10 the cases we looked through?
11 A. Mr. Chairman. That is correct.
12 Q. In the documentation we looked through this
13 morning, there was some reference to the contract with
14 Mr. Williams. Did you review that contract to see if the
15 requested payments were allowed under the contract?
16 A. Mr. Chairman. When we received that first
17 invoice, we did review both the original contract and the
18 first amendment to that contract to see if there was any
19 wording related to billable excess hours.
20 Q. And in the contract that Mr. Williams did have,
21 was he paid a certain amount per month?
22 A. Mr. Chairman. That is correct. He was paid a
23 flat rate per month. The original contract had wording
24 that stated that amount and covered completion of all
25 deliverables.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 561
1 Q. So at least for me from kind of a layman's
2 perspective, does that mean no matter how much time he
3 spent under that contract, he was supposed to get a set
4 amount per month?
5 A. Mr. Chairman. That was our interpretation also.
6 Q. Now, eventually was there an amendment made to
7 the contract to allow for excess hours?
8 A. Mr. Chairman. That is correct. Amendment to
9 allow for excess hours to be billed at a rate $90 per hour.
10 Q. But am I correct in that that amendment 2 did not
11 allow for billables of extra hours before the amendment
12 took effect?
13 A. Mr. Chairman. I'm not a lawyer or a contract law
14 expert. So I really don't know if that was allowed. I do
15 know amendment 2 had wording in it that it was to commence
16 on March 1st, and our initial interpretation of that was
17 that it was to be applicable to future services rendered
18 after that date.
19 Q. Mr. Carroll, you talked -- going back to your
20 work on the reports that were submitted to the JAC, in
21 responding to Representative Zwonitzer, I believe you said
22 you were familiar or at least aware of the footnote that
23 was placed in the budget in 2012?
24 A. Mr. Chairman. Yes, I was aware of that footnote.
25 Q. Were you aware of the restrictions placed on
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 562
1 funding transfers as a result of that footnote?
2 A. Mr. Chairman. I was aware that there were
3 restrictions, but I didn't completely understand the
4 restrictions because we could continue to see T2T payments
5 the year following that budget footnote.
6 Q. And did you understand or did you have any
7 understanding that T2T and SpLit were part of the concerns
8 out of which the budget footnote arose?
9 A. Mr. Chairman. Yes.
10 Q. And so when you were asked to scrub the report to
11 the JAC of those references to T2T and SpLit, did you
12 believe it was with the intent of misleading the
13 legislature?
14 A. Mr. Chairman. I wasn't sure what the intent was.
15 I understood what we were to do, but I didn't understand
16 the motivation or the intent.
17 Q. Mr. Carroll, did you have concerns that that was
18 one of the reasons behind the request to scrub the reports?
19 A. Mr. Chairman. Yes, I did, and I discussed those
20 with my supervisors.
21 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Okay. Thank you.
22 I don't have any more questions, Mr. Chairman.
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Patton.
24 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Mr. Chairman, I
25 think I wanted to ask a question relative to why -- if he
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 563
1 had knowledge that he could share with us as to why the
2 scrubbing or the changing of the documents was done. I'm
3 not too sure but what the previous question relative to
4 intent doesn't really cover my issue of why. So help me
5 out. Do you think I should pursue that?
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Carroll, do you
7 understand Representative Patton's question?
8 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, I understand
9 the question, but I do not have an answer as to why we were
10 instructed to do that.
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any other questions?
12 Representative Zwonitzer and then Representative Brown
13 after that.
14 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Mr. Chairman.
15 Without naming names, did you ever feel intimidated or
16 harassed by a member of Miss Hill's leadership team.
17 A. Mr. Chairman. Yes.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Brown.
19 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BROWN) Mr. Chairman.
20 Mr. Carroll, before lunch there was some dialogue with
21 Mr. Jarosh about the auditors and the Paul Williams
22 account. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the
23 essence of that was that you revealed to the auditors the
24 content of the memo and the concerns about the amendments
25 versus the payments that were made. Is that a fair
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 564
1 rendition of what was discussed?
2 A. Mr. Chairman. Yes. I did provide the auditors
3 with all of the documentation that you see in the exhibits
4 today.
5 Q. And, Mr. Chairman. Then, Mr. Carroll, my
6 question would be did you have the same sort of dialogue
7 and provide the same sort of information to the auditors
8 with respect to T2T and SpLit funding?
9 A. Mr. Chairman. I don't believe so.
10 Q. And so, Mr. Chairman. To your knowledge, the
11 auditors are not aware of the scrubbing of that -- of the
12 report that took place with respect to any references to
13 T2T or SpLit?
14 A. Mr. Chairman. I'm not sure what the auditors are
15 aware of, but with regard to our current audit, when we go
16 through an A-133 audit, the auditors select certain
17 programs that they want to audit, and one of the programs
18 selected for this audit was our federal assessment. And
19 Paul Williams' payments would have fallen under that
20 program.
21 Q. Mr. Chairman. But not necessarily the T2T and
22 the SpLit funding?
23 A. Mr. Chairman. We made a lot of SpLit and T2T
24 payments from multiple budgets, a lot of different budgets.
25 Q. And so, Mr. Chairman. What you're telling me is
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 565
1 it may appear someplace.
2 A. Mr. Chair. Yes, it may. I don't know.
3 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Okay. Thanks.
4 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Just a follow-up to the
5 majority leader's question. When you say you made a lot of
6 payments from T2T and SpLit from a lot of budgets, can you
7 give us an idea of what -- I mean, we've heard the special
8 education grant. We've heard statewide system of support.
9 We've heard 6120. Are there other accounts that you can
10 recall where those -- out of which those accounts paid for
11 that program?
12 A. Mr. Chairman, I can't recall any off the top of
13 my head, but I -- I believe there probably are additional
14 budgets that paid for T2T activities.
15 Q. Would you be able to provide the committee a list
16 of those accounts?
17 A. Yes, Mr. Chair.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Majority Floor
19 Leader.
20 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BROWN) Mr. Chairman.
21 Mr. Carroll, in the interest of having a fair and accurate
22 audit, would it be necessary for the auditors to be aware
23 of the T2T and SpLit payments even though it might have
24 been called to their attention? Is there some -- is there
25 some duty at some point to call the attention of the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 566
1 auditors to payments that may not be completely accurately
2 disclosed in the report?
3 A. Mr. Chair. Can you repeat that question? I'm
4 sorry.
5 Q. Mr. Chairman. My question is simple.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. If we're going to have a fair and accurate audit,
8 don't they need to know about T2T and SpLit?
9 A. Mr. Chair. We aren't always involved in the
10 programs that are selected for the A-133 audit. They
11 provide us with a list of the programs that they want to
12 sample, and they pull a sample of payments from each
13 program and they review everything. And sometimes that
14 exercise can lead to further sampling or further requests
15 for documentation depending on what turns up. But
16 typically we only provide information that is asked in the
17 audit.
18 Q. Well, Mr. Chairman. Let me ask you this: If
19 they miss a sample that if they hit on would show some
20 obvious deception, then is there any obligation on our part
21 to make them aware of the fact that their sampling has not
22 pulled all the data that an auditor would want to look at?
23 A. Mr. Chairman. I guess I would leave that up to
24 you to decide.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Winters.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 567
1 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE WINTERS) Mr. Chairman. This
2 is just more of a question to find out the process. We
3 keep hearing about T2T and SpLit, and if I'm not mistaken,
4 earlier we would hear about 3+8, and now also we're -- it
5 sounds at though funding is coming from a multitude or at
6 least several different accounts.
7 Is it possible that in your line item there was
8 some confusion? And what processes -- if there's no
9 confusion, what processes do you make to ensure that money
10 is coming from the correct account and going to the correct
11 program?
12 A. Mr. Chairman. I'll explain the contract and
13 payment process. So when we establish a new contract, the
14 contract is channeled through various approvals, the
15 Attorney General's Office, approvals within the Departments
16 of Education, approvals at the Department of
17 Administration, Information and Procurement Office, and
18 sometimes, depending on the threshold amount of the
19 contract, we go to the Governor's Office for approval.
20 One of the documents that we require with the
21 contract is what we call the requisition form, and that
22 indicates the source of funding for payment on the
23 contract.
24 After the contract goes through the approval
25 process, we establish what's called a budget encumbrance
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 568
1 for that contract. That basically identifies the
2 obligation of the contract for budgetary purposes and also
3 for control purposes when we're making payments on the
4 contract so that we cannot exceed the amount of the
5 contract, for example.
6 The funding sources identified on the requisition
7 form is usually identified by the program manager or the
8 division director, and there is the signature approval on
9 that form. That's how we establish the encumbrance. The
10 payments that are made after the contract work begins come
11 directly out of that budget encumbrance.
12 So the budget numbers should flow from the
13 information we receive from the division on the requisition
14 form into our accounting system, and all payment requests
15 that we receive after that date should match up with what
16 we already have in our accounting system, and that's
17 something that our pre and post-auditors verify.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Another questions?
19 REPRESENTATIVE MONIZ: Mr. Chairman.
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Moniz.
21 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MONIZ) Thank you, Mr.
22 Chairman. The Attorney General's Office has come up in a
23 number of discussions throughout our discussion on the
24 exhibits, and in this particular case you've mentioned that
25 you objected to some of the payments. When would your
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 569
1 department consult with the Attorney General's Office in
2 the propriety of this situation?
3 A. Mr. Chairman. I don't know of any exact
4 situation that would require we contact the Attorney
5 General's Office. That is kind of a judgment call that
6 would be made by the CFO, and when we have concerns that
7 the pre and post-audit level, we follow the chain of
8 command and we escalate those concerns to the CFO. And
9 then the decision is made if we need to contact any
10 external resources for clarification in any matter, whether
11 it's auditors or the Attorney General's Office or anybody
12 else.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Other questions?
14 Representative Throne.
15 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Thank you,
16 Mr. Chairman.
17 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Thank you,
18 Mr. Carroll. Am I correct that Paul Williams' annual
19 salary was -- not salary, but annual payment was $360,000?
20 A. Mr. Chairman. I believe the amount that we paid
21 Mr. Williams from August through October was a little over
22 262,000.
23 Q. So, Mr. Chairman. August, October, nine months,
24 ten months?
25 A. A little over a year, ma'am. I'm sorry, it was
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 570
1 August of 2011 through October of 2012.
2 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Thank you.
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Madden, it
4 looks like you're itching to go.
5 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: No. Yeah. Thank
6 you, Mr. Chairman.
7 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) I have a question
8 on -- going back to a question Representative Stubson
9 brought up, and it deals with a contract with the Wyoming
10 Reading Council, and in your response to his questions, you
11 were pretty vague or didn't know what the amount was or you
12 didn't know who paid it.
13 If it was deemed to be important to this
14 committee to know those questions, is there anyone in the
15 Department of Ed that we can ask, that could tell us
16 definitively if this money involved -- that went to the
17 Reading Council involved federal funds? Or I mean, we
18 can't just leave this hanging, I don't think, and if
19 there's another witness further down our list that can
20 answer it, then I'm going to leave you alone, but we -- can
21 you help me with this?
22 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Madden, absolutely.
23 And I could provide you with that information. I just
24 don't know off the top of my head. But it would be
25 relatively easy for me to provide you with that information
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 571
1 if you would like.
2 Q. Well, the next question would be if it was
3 important to us to know the disposition of those funds by
4 the Wyoming Reading Council, would we have any way of
5 knowing that in terms of how that grant was spent?
6 A. Mr. Chairman. I'm sure there is a way to find
7 that information. I'm not exactly sure if that would
8 involve contacting someone from the Wyoming Reading
9 Council. As I'm aware, we made payments directly to them
10 and, you know, if funds were to flow from them to other
11 vendors, I wouldn't have access to that information.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 Am I right in assuming that Sheryl Lain is part
14 of this Wyoming Reading Council? So would there be a
15 possibility that had we known about this earlier that we
16 could have determined the answer from her?
17 A. Mr. Chairman. I'm sorry, can you repeat that,
18 the question there.
19 Q. Well, from earlier testimony today we heard that
20 Sheryl Lain is a participant or a member of, officer or
21 something in the Wyoming Reading Council, and in that
22 regard, would she be -- would she have been the one that
23 would have been the appropriate one to ask what the Wyoming
24 Reading Council did with their grant money that we gave
25 them?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 572
1 A. Mr. Chairman. I'm not sure if she's the
2 appropriate person to ask that question. There is likely
3 someone listed on that contract from that entity that could
4 provide information with regard to that project.
5 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Thank you.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Other questions,
7 Committee? Mr. Majority Floor Leader.
8 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BROWN) Mr. Chairman.
9 Mr. Carroll, on September the 18th, 2013, you and
10 Miss Bailey met with three employees of the accounting
11 firm, the auditing firm as I understand it, Mr. Dahill, I
12 hope I'm saying that right, Brad Bowen and Alex Vissor.
13 And at that time you and Miss Bailey brought a list of
14 concerns to the auditors and discussed those concerns with
15 the auditors.
16 Now, it is my understanding that that list
17 included Fremont 38, federal time and effort logs,
18 retroactive overtime payments to contractor Paul Williams,
19 the contract with Shan Anderson, the contract with the
20 Wyoming Reading Council, which incidentally has inherent in
21 it payments that were involved in T2T and use of Title I
22 funds to pay for seats on the state airplane. I don't
23 understand, if you brought that list of concerns, why that
24 list did not include a modification of your original report
25 with respect to funding about T2T and SpLit. And really
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 573
1 when I look at the Reading Council thing, I don't know how
2 you could give that list of concerns to the auditors and
3 not discuss in some manner or another T2T and SpLit. Can
4 you give me any help there?
5 A. Mr. Chairman. I don't know that I can provide
6 any more information with regard to that list or why
7 certain items were not on that list.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any other questions?
9 I notice the minority floor leader would like to
10 go into executive section to ask some questions. We just
11 got one from the superintendent that I believe is
12 appropriate for executive session.
13 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) But I do have one just maybe
14 to -- we've heard that payments were made out of several
15 accounts for a program that was arguably prohibited by the
16 legislature; that reports to the legislature were scrubbed;
17 and that outside audits only take a sample of certain
18 accounts, and I think that's concerning to all of us.
19 Do you have any recommendations to the
20 legislature and ultimately to the people of the state of
21 Wyoming on how we can ensure that funds are spent in
22 accordance with legislative appropriations?
23 A. Mr. Chairman, I do have a recommendation. I
24 think it would be very beneficial to state agencies to have
25 an independent group of expert auditors, maybe lawyers,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 574
1 folks -- I don't know if the Department of Audit would be
2 appropriate or the State Auditor's Office, but somewhere
3 where an agency could take questions that they have and
4 just run it by somebody for a second review on things.
5 At a lower level in an agency, we try to do the
6 best that we can to identify things, but we don't always
7 have all of the information that would be required to make
8 a decision as to if something is illegal or prohibited
9 under legislation. I believe that those decisions should
10 come at a higher level, but if they don't occur at a higher
11 level, you have the opportunity for things to happen.
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Throne.
13 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Mr. Chairman, thank
14 you.
15 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Mr. Carroll, are you
16 just saying that you had concerns but you didn't know where
17 to go with them in the structure that you were working
18 under?
19 A. Mr. Chairman. I did have concerns and I did know
20 where to go with them in terms of with my supervisor and
21 with the CFO, and I did so. But I guess I just wish that
22 there was a more formal process for an independent review
23 that could occur on certain things.
24 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Mr. Chairman.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Throne.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 575
1 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) So you mean outside
2 of your agency structure, sort of outside eyes is basically
3 what you're saying would be beneficial?
4 A. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer.
6 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Is the CFO an
7 at-will position in your agency?
8 A. Mr. Chairman. I believe it is.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Other questions?
10 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Yes.
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Patton.
12 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Mr. Chairman, not
13 necessarily a question for the witness, but just an
14 elaboration of ourselves. When we're examining and looking
15 as a body on the audit, an independent audit, seems to me
16 that the management council changed the audit capability of
17 our own audit division and that we could use that and
18 reinstate the financial audit as a part of the management
19 audit. And in this particular instance it would seem to me
20 that the combination of management audit and a fiscal audit
21 by our own audit division would be about as important or as
22 independent as you might wish. It might be more than you
23 might wish. Careful what you ask for.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Let's save that thought
25 until further legislative action as part of our
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 576
1 discussions.
2 Any other questions? Without objection, we will
3 adjourn to executive session.
4 Before we go into executive session, I would
5 advise all of the members of the committee, staff and
6 representatives of the Office of Superintendent of Public
7 Instruction and Wyoming Department of Education that all
8 testimony received in executive session is confidential and
9 privileged and shall remain so until such time as the
10 committee determines additional legislative action is
11 required and based on that testimony.
12 The Wyoming Ethics and Disclosure Act provides
13 that 9-13-105(c) -- sorry about that, Eric -- that a public
14 official, public employee, public member shall not
15 disseminate to another person official information which
16 the public official, public employee or public member
17 obtains through or in connection with his position unless
18 the information is available to the general public or
19 unless dissemination is authorized by law. Further
20 dissemination of testimony you're about to hear is not
21 authorized and may be punishable as a criminal offense
22 under Wyoming Statute 9-13-109(a) or by removal from your
23 office or official position under 9-13-109(b).
24 With that, will all of the folks who are not
25 entitled to sit into executive session, will you please
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 577
1 leave us for a few minutes.
2 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: John Masters is on
3 his way.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: As we're waiting on
5 Mr. Masters, let's take a ten-minute break until five
6 minutes after 2:00.
7 (Hearing proceedings recessed
8 1:55 p.m. to 2:05 p.m.)
9 (Pages 578 through 582 are confidential
10 and sealed in a separate transcript.)
11 *****
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 583
1 (The following occurred in
2 open session.)
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: John, you may want to stay
4 because after that we're going to talk about how to address
5 Superintendent Hill leaving tomorrow and how the committee
6 wants to proceed.
7 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I have one question,
8 Mr. Speaker. The question we just asked, is that only --
9 the one that I asked, is that restricted to executive
10 session or would that be a question we could ask in public?
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I asked it in executive
12 session.
13 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Pardon, Mr. Speaker.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Let me think about it.
15 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Thank you.
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We had to wait ten minutes
17 for John to come over. It's just time now. We've got a
18 noon -- our deadline where you're leaving town tomorrow.
19 We have got ten witnesses to get through. I'm trying to
20 just get this hearing done.
21 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Speaker, thank
22 you very much, and I want you to know time is an issue, and
23 yet we want equal time and we want to make sure John is
24 here when he needs to be. If you'll let me know when
25 executive sessions are ahead of time, I can let John know.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 584
1 Thank you.
2 REPRESENTATIVE BLIKRE: Mr. Speaker.
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: No, no, no, we'll get to
4 that in a minute. Let's finish the business we're on with
5 dealing with these questions.
6 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Mr. Carroll, these are
7 Superintendent Hill's questions. Do you know what caused
8 the additional hours of services to be performed by
9 Dr. Williams?
10 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know specifically what
11 caused the extra hours. I believe there were several
12 listed in the memo from Christine Steele, but beyond that
13 I'm not aware.
14 Q. Was this work required in order to manage an RFP
15 for the assessment contract?
16 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know.
17 Q. Do you recall the nature of Dr. Williams' work on
18 that project?
19 A. Mr. Chairman, I'm not aware of those details.
20 Q. Isn't it true that as a result of his work the
21 assessment contract to cost was substantially reduced by an
22 amount in excess of 6 million per year, which resulted in a
23 savings to both the state and federal budgets?
24 A. Mr. Chairman, I can't confirm that here today.
25 Q. Have the transactions that you spoke of with Paul
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 585
1 Williams been audited per the budget footnote of the 2012
2 session by the Department of Audit in an audit of the ETA
3 account?
4 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know if they were.
5 Q. Was there an independent audit of all federal and
6 state funds of the Wyoming Department of Education per the
7 budget footnote of the 2013 session?
8 A. Could you repeat that? An independent audit.
9 Q. Was there an independent audit of all federal and
10 state funds of the Wyoming Department of Education per the
11 budget footnote of the 2013 session?
12 A. Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure. I don't believe so.
13 Q. Do you know the difference between T2T, 3+8 or
14 SpLit versus professional development?
15 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know the exact differences
16 between those programs.
17 Q. If not, then why did you characterize
18 professional development using these terms in your
19 descriptions?
20 A. Mr. Chairman, we downloaded the information
21 directly from the WOLFS state accounting system. Those
22 payments had been entered into WOLFS exactly as we had
23 received them from the division, and we would have used the
24 descriptions that were entered by the staff that submitted
25 those payments to us.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 586
1 Q. At the time there wasn't -- at the time wasn't
2 there a considerable amount of confusion about the use of
3 such terms as T2T, WYR, et cetera, and wasn't the meeting
4 on December 12th an effort to correct sloppy data entry
5 into the accounting WOLFS records?
6 A. Mr. Chairman, I'm not aware of that.
7 Q. So don't Exhibits 6 and 7 simply try to clarify
8 mistakes made on the report, Exhibit 5?
9 A. Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure how they could have
10 been mistakes if we would have entered the information
11 directly from the payment vouchers.
12 Q. Did you receive a promotion and raise after
13 Senate File 104?
14 A. Mr. Chairman, yes, I did. Shortly after Senate
15 File 104 passed, my supervisor left to pursue other
16 interests. There was a vacancy there, and I applied for
17 that job, and luckily the job was offered to me and I
18 accepted that position.
19 Q. Did you know that Norm Bratton of the Wyoming
20 Department of Audit was charged with reviewing all
21 financial transactions for the MacPherson inquiry?
22 A. Mr. Chairman, yes.
23 Q. Did you report all of the concerns you have
24 outlined today to the MacPherson inquiry team?
25 A. Mr. Chairman, I -- I worked with Norm extensively
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 587
1 to provide him with documentation that he had requested
2 based on the testimony that he had received from various
3 witnesses during that MacPherson investigation. I sent
4 Mr. Bratton hundreds of documents. He would send me an
5 e-mail with a list of documents that he needed, and I would
6 send him an e-mail reply with everything attached to it.
7 Q. Is it common practice to provide a list of items
8 to the auditors that, in your opinion, might be of concern?
9 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know if that's common
10 practice or not, but if the auditors asked for any items
11 that are of concern, we would certainly provide those.
12 Q. Who, if anyone, helped you prepare your list of
13 concerns to the auditors?
14 A. Mr. Chairman, I worked with the CFO, Dianne
15 Bailey, prior to that meeting.
16 Q. Have you spoken with Fred Hansen or anyone from
17 the Office of the Superintendent about the concerns you
18 raised?
19 A. I'm not sure which concerns, Mr. Chairman.
20 Q. Do you --
21 A. If it's everything that I've testified today, the
22 answer to that would be no.
23 Q. Do you believe that they would have helpful
24 information?
25 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know what information they
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 588
1 have.
2 Q. The superintendent handed me a question in
3 executive session that was asked in executive session that
4 she's asked to be asked in open session, and it's a long
5 one. I'll read it to you again.
6 Shortly after Superintendent Hill was elected and
7 sworn in to office, she discovered three contracts had been
8 forwarded assumably by you to the AG's Office. These
9 contracts had been tripled in funding, and yet there had
10 been no change in the deliverables. The contracts had not
11 changed, but each contract amount had been tripled.
12 Superintendent Hill met with you, Grady Prince
13 and John Masters. Superintendent Hill asked if you know
14 about this, and you said yes. She asked if you were
15 concerned. You responded yes. She asked why you had not
16 brought it to anyone's attention. You said you understood
17 you were to pass it along. She explained this could never
18 happen again. She gave her your cell number on a piece of
19 paper. She asked you to let her know in person. Her
20 office is right down the hall from you, or to call if she
21 was unavailable. You commented, "This is a culture
22 change."
23 John Masters remembers this conversation between
24 you and Mrs. Hill. Do you recall this conversation?
25 A. Mr. Chairman, I do recall the conversation. I do
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 589
1 not recall all of the specifics involved in that
2 conversation. I do not recall everything specifically that
3 Superintendent Hill told me, but I do recall that there was
4 an issue with one or more contracts, and I appreciated the
5 opportunity to discuss that with Superintendent Hill.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Carroll, thank you for
7 sharing part of the morning and afternoon with us. We
8 appreciate your testimony. We know you're here under
9 subpoena and that these are not easy things to do, but we
10 appreciate the input that you've shared with us.
11 Any objection to releasing Mr. Carroll from his
12 subpoena? Any objection to releasing all the witnesses
13 that have already testified from their subpoenas?
14 You'll be released and so -- Representative
15 Madden, you were -- was I going too fast?
16 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Mr. Speaker, I was
17 just wondering if there was any --
18 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Mic.
19 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: You might use the
20 mic.
21 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Sorry,
22 Mr. Chairman. I was just wondering because of kind of the
23 interplay between this witness and what I expect to be the
24 next witness, if there's any possibility that something
25 that comes up with the next witness could be clarified if
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 590
1 he happened to be here. You know, I'm not a big -- big on
2 it either way. To me this is a special case because he's
3 kind of a corollary to the one that we'll be having.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Carroll, would you
5 mind staying for Miss Bailey's testimony and -- is
6 Miss Bailey next on the list?
7 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Hansen and
8 then Ms. Bailey.
9 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: I'm sorry.
10 MR. JAROSH: Representative Madden is
11 correct in the sense that all of the testimony is related.
12 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, I planned on
13 staying for their testimony. Thank you.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right. Everybody else
15 except for Mr. Carroll will be released.
16 Committee, yesterday I brought to you a concern
17 that was expressed to me by Superintendent Hill that she
18 heard Representative Madden on KROE radio saying he
19 expected to be done by noon on Wednesday. She then
20 scheduled her gubernatorial campaign announcement for
21 Newcastle tomorrow night. She has a hard deadline to leave
22 at noon tomorrow. I asked you to consider how this
23 committee wanted to proceed. This is the part of the day
24 where I'm going to ask for your input and thoughts on how
25 to proceed.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 591
1 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: Mr. Chairman.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Davison.
3 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: Is there someone
4 else that can sit in for Superintendent Hill or not? If
5 there is no one else to sit in for her, then we're going to
6 have to adjust our schedules.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. Other thoughts.
8 Representative Stubson.
9 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Well,
10 Mr. Chairman, this hearing was noticed, it's been noticed
11 for a long time. It's been a lot of work and a lot of
12 expense on behalf of the State of Wyoming to get prepared,
13 to get ready. We've got witnesses subpoenaed, and so at
14 least I wouldn't have any problem with releasing the
15 superintendent from her subpoena in order to allow her to
16 do whatever she wants to do, but I believe we need to move
17 forward and work hard and get this done by tomorrow. We've
18 got a session coming up, and we've all got important
19 obligations to get ready for that session. That's why
20 we've scheduled this as we did. And so I would urge us to
21 move forward and get done with the hearing the next day.
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Other -- any other --
23 Representative Baker.
24 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Thank you,
25 Mr. Chairman. I guess my concern is in our own committee
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 592
1 rules we have allowed the superintendent to call her own
2 witnesses, and it seems to me that we're going to have to
3 meet again anyway. I wouldn't be opposed to allowing her
4 to come back at another meeting, another meeting of this
5 committee and do her testimony when her witnesses are
6 available.
7 REPRESENTATIVE BLIKRE: Mr. Chairman.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Does anybody have a
9 motion?
10 REPRESENTATIVE BLIKRE: Mr. Chairman, I
11 move that we go along with the agenda that was given
12 especially since we already changed all of our meeting
13 dates once on behalf of the superintendent, and if it works
14 for her that we get done by noon, so be it.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Is there a second?
16 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Second.
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Is there any discussion?
18 Representative Throne.
19 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Thank you,
20 Mr. Chairman. When a member is interviewed on the radio
21 and makes a prediction about schedule, even if that member
22 is the committee chair, you can't rely on that in planning
23 your lives. Certainly I hoped to be out of here by five
24 o'clock last night, and we all know how that worked out.
25 All of us, we arranged our schedules to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 593
1 accommodate the superintendent's travel plans. We've
2 rearranged our work lives to be here, and as far as I'm
3 concerned, we'll move diligently to finish on time. But
4 what would help us move faster is if perhaps Mr. Masters
5 just stays. If you would consider reducing the number of
6 your questions. The ones that go to personal bias of the
7 witnesses I find offensive because you're attacking the
8 credibility of the witnesses without any foundation for
9 doing so. It takes time. And regardless of what we do
10 with the schedule, I wanted to get that piece on the
11 record.
12 Your questions related to substance I have -- I
13 think are fine, but the ones that border on harassing the
14 witnesses or accusing them of having an ax to grind for
15 being here I find offensive, and we could all move a lot
16 faster if we skipped those questions.
17 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Speaker.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Superintendent Hill.
19 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Speaker, thank
20 you. Knowing this is not an adversarial hearing, I just
21 would like to respond thoughtfully. In December you set
22 for December 16th and 17th hearings, and when I learned of
23 that, I let folks know that I would be leaving for vacation
24 on the 18th. So I could have indeed attended on the 16th
25 and 17th. I was leaving on vacation on the 18th. And I
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 594
1 did set my other arrangements for January 8th before you
2 actually set your date.
3 Now, what I would like to say is I will be
4 leaving at noon on the 8th, and I would be happy to work
5 with you if need be beyond even the noon hour, but I do not
6 appreciate Representative Throne's comments regarding
7 questions. I think we've been more than accommodating, and
8 I think that we've submitted -- I've submitted questions in
9 an arduous situation while we have prepared questions that
10 witnesses know about, and on the fly I am responding to
11 their testimony where they have had months to prepare, some
12 of them, with special counsel, and special counsel has not
13 once spoken with myself or any of my staff.
14 My staff member today on subpoena responded to
15 your questions of the special committee and to yours
16 without any knowledge of what they would be asked. That
17 was not what occurred for the last 48 hours, the last two
18 days in this room and what will be happening with 14 of the
19 witnesses.
20 So I thank you for taking my questions,
21 Mr. Lubnau. Thank you for taking my questions. I
22 appreciate that very much, and I hope that witnesses will
23 also be called as we discussed. Thank you.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any other discussion by
25 the committee? Representative Madden, then Mr. Majority
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 595
1 Floor Leader.
2 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Am I next?
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yes.
4 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Thank you,
5 Mr. Speaker. Along with the Blikre motions, do we need to
6 also release the subpoena for the superintendent?
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: If we want to. Otherwise,
8 she can be arrested if she leaves. I don't want to do
9 that.
10 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: I think we should
11 amend that or maybe if the maker of the motion doesn't
12 care, we should include that so we don't end up with one of
13 those deals.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Blikre.
15 REPRESENTATIVE BLIKRE: Well, Mr. Chairman,
16 I think that's your purview. You can do that. This is
17 just until when we meet. So as far as I'm concerned we can
18 do that amendment if you want or not. It doesn't matter.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: The committee rules allow
20 the committee to issue subpoenas. I just sign them. So
21 it's a committee vote on whether to release her from that
22 subpoena.
23 REPRESENTATIVE BLIKRE: Well, in that case,
24 I'll take that as a friendly amendment.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Does second agree with
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 596
1 that?
2 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: No.
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: The second doesn't agree
4 with that. So we'll need that as a separate motion. So
5 the motion on the floor is just to continue through. Any
6 further discussion on that motion?
7 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Mr. Chairman.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Patton.
9 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: I oppose the
10 amendment.
11 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: I didn't approve
12 it. So it's not --
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: The second didn't approve
14 it so --
15 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: The second did not
16 approve it.
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Then there is no motion to
18 amend the motion. We're back on the main motion, which is
19 just to continue through. Is there any further discussion?
20 Seeing none and sensing you're ready to vote, all
21 in favor of just continuing through, say aye.
22 (13 representatives voted aye.)
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Opposed.
24 (Three representatives voted no.)
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: That vote for the record
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 597
1 would be five to two, the nos being Representatives Baker
2 and Representative Davison. Five to three, and
3 Representative Winter, and I can't count. However many the
4 rest of us are.
5 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: You're way off.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. Now, are there any
7 motions -- Representative Brown.
8 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I move
9 that the superintendent be released from her subpoena so
10 that she -- if she chooses not to attend the committee
11 proceedings to their finality, she will not be in contempt.
12 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Second that.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: There's a second. Any
14 discussion? Representative Zwonitzer.
15 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thanks. More of
16 a question. Did any of the other witnesses ask to be
17 released from their subpoena and we said that's not a
18 possibility? Does anybody know? It matters to me.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: The only people we've
20 released by committee vote are those that we've already
21 released that have already testified.
22 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: I guess my
23 question, Mr. Chairman, did any of the people we subpoenaed
24 express dismay or ask if there's any way to get out of
25 their subpoena? Okay. Thanks.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 598
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, do you have an
2 answer to that?
3 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, none of the
4 witnesses expressed a desire to be released from their
5 subpoena prior to testifying as far as I'm aware,
6 Mr. Salzburg is aware or Mr. Lenhart's aware.
7 MR. OLBRECHT: Mr. Speaker, no one
8 contacted LSO and requested to be released from their
9 subpoena.
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any other discussion on
11 the motion? All of those in favor of releasing
12 Superintendent Hill -- I'm going to ask you to raise your
13 hand -- Superintendent Hill from her subpoena raise your
14 hand.
15 (Ten representatives raised hands.)
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All opposed? It looks
17 like a vote of ten, four, four opposed and, of course, the
18 chair didn't vote. So, Superintendent Hill, you'll be
19 released from your subpoena.
20 We're at that order of business of counsel call
21 your next witness.
22 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, the next witness
23 is Greg Hansen.
24 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Speaker, due to
25 John Masters' work, would you like him to stay or would you
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 599
1 like him to come back at a specific time?
2 MR. MASTERS: I'm happy to stay, whatever
3 you'd like.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Masters, why don't you
5 do this: Are you listening to this testimony on the
6 Internet?
7 MR. MASTERS: We have it on the Internet,
8 yes.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: If you're listening to it
10 on the Internet, when we get to that part of the
11 questioning by committee members, would you come back?
12 MR. MASTERS: I will zoom back over.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. Thank you very
14 much, sir.
15 MR. MASTERS: Okay. Thank you.
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Hansen, did you
17 receive an advisement with your subpoena as to the hearing
18 and the hearing process?
19 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chair, yes, I did.
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Did you understand it?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions?
23 THE WITNESS: No, I do not.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Would you rise and raise
25 your right hand.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 600
1 (Witness sworn.)
2 GREGORYWILLIAMHANSEN,
3 called for examination by the Select Investigative
4 Committee, being first duly sworn, on his oath testified as
5 follows:
6 EXAMINATION
7 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) Mr. Hansen, will you state your
8 full name, please.
9 A. Gregory William Hansen.
10 Q. Mr. Hansen, were you here for Mr. Carroll's
11 testimony?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. In its entirety?
14 A. Yes, I was.
15 Q. Do you recall me explaining a couple of sort of
16 ground rules for testifying when a court reporter is taking
17 testimony?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Do you have any questions about any of those?
20 A. I do not.
21 Q. And I guess I would just urge you to let me know
22 if I ask you a question that you don't understand, then I
23 will rephrase it until you tell me that you understand it,
24 okay?
25 A. Okay.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 601
1 Q. Are you currently employed?
2 A. Sorry, am I currently employed?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. With the Department?
5 Q. No, just in general.
6 A. In general, I am self-employed. I am now a
7 farmer.
8 Q. And where are you a farmer?
9 A. Out east of town in Laramie County.
10 Q. Did you previously work for the Department of
11 Education?
12 A. Yes, I did, from March -- February 2011 to March
13 of 2013.
14 Q. And what was your position within the Department?
15 A. I was a section supervisor in the finance
16 department, and that was my final position with the
17 Department.
18 Q. Did you previously work in school finance?
19 A. That's correct, yeah. That was where I started
20 was in school finance.
21 Q. Will you describe briefly for the committee how,
22 if at all, your work and responsibilities with the
23 Department changed from the time you started until the time
24 you left?
25 A. When I started with the Department, I worked with
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 602
1 the school foundation funding program, that section of
2 finance. And then when Dianne Bailey left the agency, I
3 took over some of her duties in the finance -- the
4 departmental finance section, and it was different than
5 what I was doing at the very beginning for sure.
6 Q. Can you describe for the committee generally what
7 your job responsibilities were?
8 A. My job responsibilities were basically to look
9 over contract payments, budgetary -- assist in the
10 budgetary stuff with the CFO, and I was -- also did B-11s
11 and other accounting items.
12 Q. Was Trent Carroll one of the employees who you
13 supervised?
14 A. Yes, he was.
15 Q. And who was your supervisor and then what was the
16 chain of command from there?
17 A. My supervisor was Fred Hansen. After that it was
18 Mr. Masters and then Superintendent Hill.
19 Q. Would you briefly describe for the committee your
20 educational background and your employment history?
21 A. Sure. I did two years at Eastern Wyoming
22 College, received my degree there. Then went to Chadron
23 State College for my finance and management degree. And I
24 finished my educational career at the University of Wyoming
25 with an MBA.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 603
1 Q. And then do you have any more employment history
2 other than what you've told us about with respect to the
3 Department and your current occupation, farming?
4 A. Yes, I do. I started right out of college with
5 the Wyoming Department of Audit as one of their auditors.
6 Q. Andhowlongdidyouworkthere?
7 A. Oh,from2005to2011.
8 Q. And that's when you went to work for the
9 Department of Education?
10 A. That'scorrect.
11 Q. Did you -- let me ask you this: Do you recall
12 some issues related to paying overtime invoices for Paul
13 Williams?
14 A. Yes,Ido.
15 Q. You were here for Mr. Carroll's testimony
16 regarding those issues and those payments?
17 A. Yes,Iwas.
18 Q. Did Mr. Carroll accurately describe the timeline
19 in terms of what occurred and how it occurred?
20 A. Yes, he did. As Mr. Carroll testified, we did
21 share an office. So I was there for all those events.
22 Q. Did you have any concerns about what happened
23 with respect to Mr. Williams' contracts? I'm sorry, with
24 respect to the payments of Mr. Williams' invoices?
25 A. Yes,Idid.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 604
1 Q. And would you tell the committee what those
2 concerns were?
3 A. My concerns were much the same as Mr. Carroll's
4 concerns, that the payment was outside the terms of the
5 original contract, and that was my concern. That it's a
6 preaudit procedure was to match invoices to contracts.
7 Q. And did you express your concerns to Mr. Hansen?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. And I mean Fred Hansen.
10 A. That's correct. And no relation, by the way, in
11 case anybody's wondering.
12 Q. And what happened -- and the concerns that you
13 expressed to Fred Hansen were concerns about payment of the
14 vouchers for overtime invoices for Mr. Williams?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. And how did Mr. Hansen respond or what happened?
17 A. As Trent testified, we took our concerns to Fred
18 Hansen, showed him the information that we had received in
19 the request for payment. He took that information, went
20 upstairs, and when he returned he said he had spoken to
21 Mr. Masters and Superintendent Hill and that we were to pay
22 those invoices.
23 Q. And did you?
24 A. And we did.
25 Q. Would you just turn quickly to Exhibit Number 3
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 605
1 behind Trent Carroll's tab in the exhibit notebook? It's a
2 series of e-mails.
3 A. I believe I'm there.
4 Q. You heard Mr. Carroll testify about those e-mails
5 earlier?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Did you send those e-mails?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. And what was the purpose?
10 A. The purpose of sending these e-mails was for
11 audit documentation. Many times auditors come in to agency
12 and ask questions one, two years after the fact. So I sent
13 these e-mails as a prior auditor knowing the types of
14 questions that get asked wanting to be very clear on my
15 record as what happened, who, when, where, those sorts of
16 things. That way I could describe to the auditors if they
17 had any questions about these -- these -- this situation.
18 Q. Was one of the reasons why you sent these e-mails
19 because you wanted to make sure that there was a record
20 that someone higher than you had told you to make these
21 payments?
22 A. That's correct. In my office we were focused
23 with making sure that the internal controls were followed,
24 and when an internal control is circumvented by management
25 override, we wanted to make sure that that was documented.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 606
1 Q. You also heard Mr. Carroll testify about some
2 events that happened with respect to an expenditure report
3 that was prepared for the Joint Appropriations Committee in
4 2012?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Was -- and you were involved with that, correct?
7 A. That is correct. I helped prepare the report as
8 he testified.
9 Q. Was Mr. Carroll's testimony with respect to the
10 timeline in terms of what occurred with those expenditure
11 reports accurate?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recall at some point in time that you were
14 asked to attend a meeting with Mr. Masters, Superintendent
15 Hill and others?
16 A. Yes. We received an e-mail asking us to attend
17 this meeting.
18 Q. And did you attend the meeting?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. And will you describe for the committee what
21 happened at the meeting?
22 A. At the meeting Superintendent Hill, Mr. Masters,
23 Christine Steele, Fred Hansen, Trent Carroll, and I were
24 all there. We were asked to remove the terms "T2Ts,"
25 "3+8," "SpLit" from the report, and we did as they
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 607
1 requested.
2 Q. Did you express any concerns to the other
3 attendees about the instruction that you do that?
4 A. Yes, I did. I mentioned that this would not
5 match the first report we sent over. I said that this
6 would not match the source documents in WOLFS which are
7 prepared from direct -- direct payment vouchers and
8 invoices, descriptions are entered directly into WOLFS at
9 the time of payments, and so it wouldn't match, and I
10 didn't like the fact that my source documents would not
11 match the report.
12 Q. And did anyone respond to your concerns?
13 A. I believe they -- there was probably some
14 response, but I don't recall what the response was other
15 than please make the changes we've requested.
16 Q. And then did you make those changes?
17 A. Yes, we did.
18 Q. Did you then provide a copy of the revised report
19 to Superintendent Hill and Mr. Masters?
20 A. Yes, we did.
21 Q. Do you recall if you e-mailed that to them or if
22 you printed it for them?
23 A. I do recall asking whether they wanted an
24 electronic copy or a hard copy, and they specified they
25 wanted a hard copy so that they could ensure that all the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 608
1 changes were made.
2 Q. Did what happened with respect to the expenditure
3 report and what you were asked to do bother you?
4 A. As I stated previously, it bothered me because it
5 would not match source documents, and we get these standard
6 requests from the legislature through the LSO routinely,
7 and the folks over at the LSO know who compiles these
8 reports and these documents, and I did not like the fact
9 that if someone dug into it that it would show that it
10 didn't match and that possibly my work would look sloppy.
11 Q. All right. I'm now going to ask you some
12 questions -- they're the basic questions that
13 Superintendent Hill submitted to be asked of all witnesses.
14 I think you've probably heard me ask these same questions
15 of Mr. Carroll.
16 Are you familiar with the penalties for perjury
17 and that you are subject to those penalties should you
18 provide false testimony?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you speak with anyone prior to today about
21 your testimony before this committee, including Mr. Jarosh,
22 Mr. Salzburg, or representatives from their firms, members
23 of the legislature or other staff or employees of the
24 State, such as the Governor's Office or the Wyoming
25 Department of Education regarding these proceedings today
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 609
1 or Senate File 104?
2 A. I spoke with Mr. Jarosh approximately -- before
3 Christmas at some point over the phone, and then I went to
4 the office to answer questions that Mr. Jarosh had.
5 Q. Will you describe the conversation that we had in
6 detail and how long it took?
7 A. Most of the conversation was about the Paul
8 Williams payments and the expenditure report. It was
9 probably 45 minutes to an hour, and he also explained how
10 this meeting would work and that I was -- would be under
11 oath.
12 Q. Did the attorney or his representatives instruct
13 you that your testimony must be truthful and, if based on
14 speculation and conjecture or opinion, must be stated as
15 such?
16 A. Yes, I was told that I would be under oath.
17 Q. And that your testimony must be truthful and, if
18 based on speculation, conjecture or opinion, must be stated
19 as such?
20 A. Sorry. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence
22 relating to your testimony?
23 A. I am not.
24 Q. Were you interviewed for the MacPherson report?
25 A. I was not.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 610
1 Q. Then so that the record is clear, I'm not going
2 to ask the basic questions of all witnesses related to the
3 accuracy of statements that you made in the MacPherson
4 report since you didn't participate in it.
5 A. Okay.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Questions, committee.
7 MR. JAROSH: I'm sorry. Speaker,
8 Mr. Speaker. Superintendent Hill still -- she also had
9 submitted some additional --
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay.
11 MR. JAROSH: -- questions specific to
12 Mr. Hansen prior to today.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right.
14 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) So, Mr. Hansen, I'm going to ask
15 you some additional questions submitted by Superintendent
16 Hill. Did you assist in calculating the amounts that
17 transferred to the education testing and assessment account
18 at the Auditor's Office?
19 A. My assistance in that matter included pulling the
20 reports from our budget management system and providing
21 those to the CFO and compiling various reports with those
22 amounts.
23 Q. Was that done in conjunction with Mary Kay Hill
24 of the Governor's Office and personnel from both LSO and
25 A&I?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 611
1 A. I attended at least one meeting that I can
2 remember where Mary Kay Hill was in attendance. I do not
3 remember LSO. And A&I budget was in attendance as they
4 would help in the process of moving the funds from the
5 Department of Education to the ETA account.
6 Q. Did all come to agreement on the amount to be
7 transferred?
8 A. We did transfer amounts. I cannot specifically
9 say whether everybody was happy with or agreed with the
10 amounts transferred, but amounts were transferred.
11 Q. Did you monitor and recommend amounts to be
12 submitted for payment from the ETA account?
13 A. My role in the ETA account was to track the
14 amounts. Program division people would make the request.
15 They would prepare the payment documents, and I was there
16 to make sure that as the second-level check that the budget
17 coding and items were accurate.
18 Q. Did you receive and review the audit of the
19 amounts paid from that account?
20 A. I don't believe so. I left in March of 2013,
21 sir. It would have been after my time.
22 Q. The next question was if not, why not? Is your
23 because --
24 A. Yes, that would be my answer.
25 Q. Were you involved in the development of the B-11
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 612
1 for alignment of positions to funding sources?
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 Q. Was the work you submitted consistent with the
4 instructions the Department had received from A&I budget
5 office and others?
6 A. The work I did on the B-11 was basically that of
7 an accountant to ensure that the numbers for salary and
8 benefits matched for all the positions and that it all tied
9 and balanced to zero. That was put on the appropriate
10 forms. It was reviewed by the CFO, by Mr. Masters and
11 ultimately by Superintendent Hill because B-11 requires her
12 signature, and then it was submitted to A&I.
13 Q. Was your office discouraged from doing several
14 smaller groups of B-11 realignments and directed to do one
15 large comprehensive request?
16 A. The B-11 request originates with the agency. So
17 the agency has the prerogative to request whatever they
18 prefer. We did receive guidance from A&I budget that they
19 would like to see the whole picture as opposed to a
20 piecemeal approach.
21 Q. Wasn't that B-11 request rejected by the
22 Governor's Office for being too complicated?
23 A. It did come back rejected. I do not recall the
24 reasoning behind it all.
25 Q. Did Mary Kay Hill communicate this rejection to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 613
1 the Wyoming Department of Education?
2 A. I'm not sure if there was an additional memo with
3 that rejection, but the B-11 form came back with the
4 rejected box checked on it.
5 Q. Did she -- and I assume this means Mary Kay
6 Hill -- provide any alternatives for the Wyoming Department
7 of Education to consider?
8 A. I'm not aware.
9 Q. How are financial record adjustments normally
10 originated and processed, in your experience?
11 A. I'm not exactly sure what financial record
12 adjustment means, but any access to the State's accounting
13 system is controlled by the State Auditor's Office, and
14 they would know who can access what, when and where.
15 Q. Would it be normal for these adjustments to
16 originate from someone outside of the Department other than
17 an auditor?
18 A. I'm not able to answer that question.
19 Q. Would you say that superintendent -- that the
20 superintendent placed a high degree of trust and reliance
21 upon you and the other members of the finance department?
22 A. I would say we were expected to do our jobs
23 competently. I would also say that everything I did was
24 reviewed at least by the CFO, if not Mr. Masters, and in
25 the case of B-11s and items of that nature that required
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 614
1 the superintendent's signature, they were reviewed by her
2 and before they were submitted.
3 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, those are all of
4 Superintendent Hill's preliminary questions for Mr. Hansen.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Questions from the
6 committee?
7 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
8 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) I'll ask you the same one
9 that I asked Mr. Carroll, which is we've heard that
10 payments were made out of several accounts for a program
11 that was arguably prohibited by the legislature; that
12 reports though the legislature were scrubbed; and that
13 outside audits only take a sample of certain accounts, and
14 that's -- that's concerning I think to all of us, though I
15 don't want to put words in anybody's mouths. Do you have
16 any recommendations to the legislature and ultimately to
17 the people of the state on how we can ensure that funds are
18 spent in accordance with legislative appropriation?
19 A. I would say that internal controls are essential
20 to that. As you saw in this case illustrated that
21 management can choose to override an internal control, and
22 when that happens, the funds -- it may be perfectly
23 acceptable, but it may not be, and a person at my level in
24 an organization is not at the level to say whether or not
25 in this instance it was okay to go outside the internal
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 615
1 controls. So I think internal controls are essential to
2 ensure that funds are spent accurately and correctly and
3 appropriately.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Other questions,
5 committee?
6 Mr. Majority Floor Leader.
7 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BROWN) Mr. Chairman. Well,
8 Mr. Hansen, how would you suggest that those internal
9 controls be structured? That's a generic term, internal
10 control. If you were a dictator for a day, how would you
11 set it up?
12 A. Mr. Chair. Representative Brown, I think as my
13 colleague suggested, having an outside -- outside set of
14 eyes that can look at the internal controls, that would be
15 good. I know our agency has an internal control manual. I
16 think all agencies should. I don't know if they're
17 standardized. I don't know how they all work.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Majority Floor Leader.
19 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BROWN) Mr. Chairman. When
20 you were employed by the State, were you an at-will
21 employee?
22 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Brown, I was not.
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Other questions?
24 Representative Madden.
25 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Thank you,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 616
1 Mr. Speaker.
2 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) With regard to the
3 expenditure report to the legislature, do you believe it
4 was blatantly obvious that you were told to scrub this
5 report to avoid further confrontation issues with the
6 legislature related to T2T programs?
7 A. Mr. Chair. Representative Madden, I knew that
8 T2T, 3+8, those terms were hot button issues with the
9 legislature. I did not know the intent of why these things
10 needed to be changed. They were on the source documents.
11 So I figured they should be on the report.
12 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Thank you,
13 Mr. Speaker.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We're at the part of the
15 superintendent's questions. Mr. Masters, you're released
16 until --
17 MR. MASTERS: I'll stick around.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: -- the next time when the
19 committee starts asking questions if you would like to.
20 MR. MASTERS: Thank you.
21 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Do you know what caused the
22 additional hours of service to be performed by
23 Dr. Williams?
24 A. I do not.
25 Q. Was this work required in order to manage RFP for
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 617
1 the assessment contract?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Do you recall the nature of Dr. Williams' work on
4 that project?
5 A. I do not. I did not manage Dr. Williams.
6 Q. Were you aware that RFP review and analysis work
7 was more extensive than had been anticipated?
8 A. I do not.
9 Q. Isn't it true that as a result of this work, the
10 assessment contract, the cost substantially reduced by an
11 amount in excess of 6 million a year, which resulted in a
12 savings to both state and federal budgets?
13 A. I do not know.
14 Q. Have the transactions that you spoke of Paul
15 Williams been audited per the budget footnote of the 2012
16 session by the Department of Audit in an audit of the ETA
17 account?
18 A. They may have been included in that ETA account.
19 I do not know the results of that audit.
20 Q. Was there an independent audit of all federal and
21 state funds of the Wyoming Department of Education per the
22 budget footnote of the 2013 session?
23 A. I'm not aware.
24 Q. Do you know the difference between T2T, 3+8 or
25 SpLit versus professional development?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 618
1 A. We were always told T2T was a process and that
2 professional development was a program or a way to teach
3 people. I was not able to determine the difference.
4 Q. If not, then why did you characterize
5 professional development using these terms in your
6 descriptions?
7 A. I could not tell the difference between them.
8 Q. If you didn't characterize payment language, then
9 who did?
10 A. The payment language was characterized by the
11 program manager on the invoice. So the descriptions came
12 directly from invoices and payment information.
13 Q. Did that person understand the difference between
14 T2T, 3+8, SpLit versus professional development?
15 A. I do not know.
16 Q. At that time wasn't there a considerable amount
17 of confusion about the use of such terms as T2T, WYR and
18 wasn't the meeting on December 12th an effort to correct
19 sloppy data entry into accounting the WOLFS records?
20 A. I believe that we have good accounting or proper
21 accounting entry into our WOLFS records. Those records are
22 preaudited and postaudited. They receive review by at
23 least three sets of eyes. I think they're accurate.
24 Q. Did you supervise the creation of source
25 documents for the WOLFS system?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 619
1 A. I supervised a fraction of them.
2 Q. Did you provide any training to those persons to
3 ensure that correct information was placed on the source
4 documents?
5 A. Yes. We -- as my colleague testified, part of
6 his job duties was fiscal training. Part of that training
7 was to ensure that people put the correct line items and
8 descriptions, invoice numbers, those sorts of things into
9 the WOLFS system.
10 Q. Did you confer with those persons who created the
11 source documents about whether they had correctly entered
12 the data?
13 A. Could you repeat of the question, please?
14 Q. Sure. Did you confer with those persons who
15 created the source documents about whether they had
16 correctly entered the data?
17 A. Yes. When we had questions, we would confer with
18 the people creating the source documents and ensure that
19 they matched -- not only did they have to match the payment
20 voucher, they had to match what was in the contract and the
21 deliverables.
22 Q. So don't Exhibits 6 and 7 simply try to clarify
23 mistakes on the report?
24 A. I do not believe so.
25 Q. I'm reading this as Superintendent Hill, so I'm
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 620
1 referring to me. So I'm not schizophrenic.
2 Representative Lubnau indicated that T2T was
3 prohibited by the legislature, and you have indicated that
4 you had concerns. Where in the law was WDE prohibited from
5 carrying out professional development or T2T?
6 A. I'm not an expert in the law, but I believe it
7 was inferred from a footnote in our budget.
8 Q. Is the agency still providing professional
9 development?
10 A. I would assume so, but I no longer work there.
11 Q. Based on your understanding, is T2T going on
12 today?
13 A. I have no idea.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Hansen, thank you very
15 much. Without -- oh, Representative Zwonitzer.
16 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: I have an
17 additional question.
18 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Mr. Carroll
19 testified several times that, you know, he had concerns and
20 he expressed his concerns to his direct supervisor,
21 yourself. I guess my question is did you share in his
22 concerns or take them into account? And if so, did you
23 have similar concerns? Did you take them to someone or
24 what was the process you went through when you had a
25 subordinate expressing concerns or if you had any concerns?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 621
1 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Zwonitzer. I
2 shared his concerns. I took them to my supervisor, which
3 would be the CFO. I thought that was the proper channel.
4 When it came back that management decided differently, then
5 our internal controls, that's why we wrote the e-mails to
6 document that.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Now we're at that part
8 where you're released. The same stipulation would apply to
9 you that applied to Mr. Carroll. If you could stay for
10 Miss Bailey's testimony.
11 THE WITNESS: I would be happy to.
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. Thank you very
13 much.
14 And Miss Bailey is next; is that right?
15 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, yes. Do you want
16 to forge ahead or do you want to take a break?
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you think we can do it
18 in 30 minutes?
19 THE REPORTER: I need to take a break.
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: You know what, Eric runs
21 this show. We'll reconvene at 3:20, 3:25.
22 (Hearing proceedings recessed
23 3:05 p.m. to 3:23 p.m.)
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Miss Bailey, did you
25 receive an advisement when you got your subpoena?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 622
1 THE WITNESS: I did.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Did you read it?
3 THE WITNESS: I did.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Did you understand it?
5 THE WITNESS: I did.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions?
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Would you please rise and
9 raise your right hand.
10 (Witness sworn.)
11 BARBARADIANNEBAILEY,
12 called for examination by the Select Investigative
13 Committee, being first duly sworn, on her oath testified as
14 follows:
15 EXAMINATION
16 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) Ms. Bailey, will you please
17 state your full name.
18 A. It's a shock to some, but it's Barbara Dianne
19 Bailey.
20 Q. You've been here for some of the testimony today?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you have any questions about how the process
23 is going to work in terms of it being reported by the court
24 reporter and the instructions to make sure that you respond
25 verbally and let me know if I ask you a question that you
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 623
1 don't understand?
2 A. I understand that.
3 Q. Do you live in Cheyenne?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. And how long have you lived here?
6 A. 45 years.
7 Q. How are you currently employed?
8 A. I work for the Department of Education. I'm the
9 finance and data division administrator.
10 Q. And how long have you been in that position?
11 A. Since February of '13.
12 Q. Who hired you for that position?
13 A. The interim director at that time, Jim Rose.
14 Q. Where did you work prior to being hired by
15 Interim Director Rose?
16 A. I worked for the School Facilities Department as
17 the chief financial officer and operations manager.
18 Q. How long did you hold that position?
19 A. From August of '11 through February of '13 when I
20 came over here. So 18 months.
21 Q. And prior to that did you work for the State
22 Department of Education?
23 A. I did from --
24 Q. That's okay. Go ahead.
25 A. From 2001. I think January of 2001 through I
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 624
1 think August of 2011.
2 Q. What was your position there?
3 A. At the original time?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I was the finance supervisor.
6 Q. Okay. Will you summarize your educational
7 background for the committee?
8 A. Yes. I attended both LCCC and UW majoring in
9 business administration.
10 Q. And will you summarize your employment history?
11 A. 28 years with the State of Wyoming, all of them
12 in finance in one capacity or another, starting pretty low,
13 entry level.
14 Q. What are your primary responsibilities in your
15 current position with the Department?
16 A. I am responsible for the WDE and the school
17 finance budgets both biennial and supplemental, all of the
18 accounting for the Department, contracts, fixed assets, all
19 of the things that go into accounting, as well as the
20 school finance and recently was given the responsibility of
21 the data section as well. And so that would be all of the
22 data suites that go between the school districts and the
23 WDE and then from the WDE to the feds.
24 Q. How many employees do you supervise in your
25 current position?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 625
1 A. Directly?
2 Q. Let's start with that, yeah.
3 A. Directly. Five.
4 Q. Maybe this is a better way to ask it. What's the
5 chain of command above you?
6 A. Above me is the director of the Department.
7 Q. So you report directly to the director?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What were your duties in your position prior to
10 leaving in August of 2011? Let me start by asking this:
11 Remind me again what was your position prior to leaving in
12 August of 2011?
13 A. Finance supervisor.
14 Q. Will you describe for the committee what your job
15 duties and responsibilities were in that position?
16 A. Some of it the same as I have now. I did not
17 supervise school finance, the three school finance folks,
18 but I supervised the rest of the department and prepared
19 the budget, but didn't testify to the budget and did all
20 the accounting, supervised all the accounting, and there
21 was no data involved in that.
22 Q. All right. What was your chain of command in
23 that position prior to leaving in August of '11?
24 A. I reported to Fred Hansen. He reported to John
25 Masters and John to Cindy Hill.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 626
1 Q. We've heard some testimony from Mr. Carroll about
2 A-133 audits. Are you familiar with A-133 audits?
3 A. Yes, I am.
4 Q. Will you describe for the committee what an A-133
5 audit is?
6 A. I will echo a lot of Mr. Carroll's testimony.
7 It's a single audit. So you'll hear of the single
8 statewide audit. And it's an annual audit that is required
9 of any federal grant or award that has over $500,000 of
10 expenditures in the year that's being audited.
11 Q. Have you been involved in A-133 audits in any of
12 your work for the Department of Education?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When was the first time you recall being involved
15 in any of the A-133 audits?
16 A. In the 1990s, I believe.
17 Q. Can an agency be required to pay money back to
18 the federal government as the result of an A-133 audit?
19 A. Yes, they can.
20 Q. To your knowledge, has that happened while you
21 have been employed by the Department?
22 A. Yes, it has.
23 Q. Will you tell the committee the circumstances
24 involving the federal paybacks related to A-133 audits that
25 you're aware of?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 627
1 A. Yes. In -- I'm not sure of the year when Trent
2 Blankenship was the superintendent, after he left there was
3 our regular A-133 audit, and there were some findings with
4 special education, I believe, and we had to pay back about
5 $10,000, I think.
6 Q. Any others?
7 A. Yes. Under Jim McBride, and I just found this
8 out the other day, there was I believe it was a Title I,
9 and I'm sorry if I'm misstating that, but this was a
10 time and effort mistake in someone's -- that their
11 accounting records for their pay and their time and effort
12 logs did not match up. The feds always check for that, and
13 that one was about 13,000 just for one individual.
14 Q. Are there any others that you're aware of?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you have any understanding with respect to
17 what kinds of funds can be used or have to be used to make
18 a federal payback as the result of an audit finding from an
19 A-133 audit?
20 A. Yes. The feds don't allow us to use their money
21 to pay them back. So we have to come up with general
22 funds.
23 Q. You're aware of the ongoing A-133 audit that
24 Mr. Carroll testified about earlier?
25 A. Yes, I am.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 628
1 Q. Were you asked to meet with auditors as a part of
2 that process?
3 A. Yes, I was.
4 Q. And who was present for that meeting?
5 A. It was Robert Dahill and Brad Bowen and Alex
6 Vissor from McGee, Hearne & Paiz, and then Trent Carroll
7 and myself from the WDE.
8 Q. And was that the same meeting in September of
9 2013 that Mr. Carroll testified about?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. At that audit did the auditors ask you any
12 questions about the use of federal funds in Fremont School
13 District Number 38?
14 A. They did.
15 Q. Did they also ask questions with respect to the
16 Paul Williams contract that we've already heard testimony
17 about?
18 A. They did.
19 Q. Has the Department received the results of the
20 audit?
21 A. No, but I contacted Robert Dahill several days
22 ago, and he anticipates we will have an exit conference
23 next week, the week of the 13th.
24 Q. Can you tell the committee what an exit
25 conference is with the auditors?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 629
1 A. An exit conference is where they will go over all
2 the areas of concerns, the findings, possible findings and
3 also federal paybacks, if any, and tell us what their areas
4 of concern were. We have a chance to respond to that. And
5 then a copy of that final report will be sent to -- I'm
6 trying to remember the name of it, the Federal Audit
7 Commission, the FAC, and also the federal agency in this
8 case, the U.S. Department of Education, they're our main
9 federal agency, and it's published out there on the State
10 Auditor's Office website as well.
11 Q. Have you ever had occasion to talk to
12 Superintendent Hill about A-133 audits or audits in
13 general?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. And when was that?
16 A. When Superintendent Hill was elected, but she
17 wasn't in office yet, the WDE provided her with an office
18 in the building at that time so that she could become
19 climatized and get ready. And Fred Hansen, the CFO at that
20 time, wanted to meet with her and myself and talk about how
21 well the finance unit is, how we hadn't had any audit
22 findings in previous years, and so we talked about that.
23 Q. Do you remember anything else about that meeting?
24 A. I do. When Fred indicated that we had -- had
25 zero audit findings, she leaned over and patted my arm and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 630
1 said, "Well, that's really nice, but don't get used to it
2 because I think outside the box."
3 Q. I want to talk to you about Fremont School
4 District 38. Do you recall a meeting in approximately July
5 or August of 2011, and this would be right before you left
6 the Department of Education, where there was a discussion
7 of using federal funds to pay for the Wyoming Read protocol
8 in Fremont School District Number 38?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. Who was at that meeting?
11 A. To the best of my recollection, it was Cindy Hill
12 and John Masters, Christine Steele, Sheryl Lain, myself.
13 That's all I remember.
14 Q. And do you recall whether there was a discussion
15 about whether ARRA funds could be used?
16 A. Yes, there was.
17 Q. I think we've had some testimony, but it was a
18 while ago and I know people are getting tired, but could
19 you just remind the committee what ARRA funds are?
20 A. ARRA funds are the funds that came out in 2009
21 for the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, and the
22 states were given these funds and for the first time
23 required to do subrecipient reporting, and that's called
24 1512 reporting, and that's still being done on the few ARRA
25 funds that are still out there flowing through the state,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 631
1 and I think that's reported through the governor's website.
2 Q. Do you have any experience with ARRA funds other
3 than what you do in your day-to-day work with the
4 Department?
5 A. I do. When we first -- when the State first
6 received ARRA funds, agencies were asked to submit someone
7 from each agency that had these funds that could serve on
8 the governor -- Governor Freudenthal at that time, on his
9 state team, ARRA team, and I was chosen from education to
10 do that. And there were subcommittees, and I was the chair
11 of the reporting and accountability subcommittee for the
12 ARRA, for the governor's team.
13 Q. We've heard testimony during the last couple of
14 days about school improvement grants or SIGs. Are there
15 SIGs related to ARRA and then separate SIGs that are not
16 ARRA SIGs?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Does the State have a process by which it's able
19 to track those different kinds of SIGs?
20 A. It does. Each -- each -- first of all, the State
21 when we did get the ARRA funds was real concerned because
22 the federal government said that we can't commingle these
23 funds, and so we set up a special fund in appropriation,
24 090, that was never used before that would indicate these
25 are ARRA funds.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 632
1 And then in WDE I thought it would be
2 particularly easy for us, as Trent Carroll, I think,
3 testified, we had already set up our state funds under 6100
4 budgets, and our federal funds we can tell right away were
5 federal because they were 6300, so we set up our ARRA funds
6 as 6500 budgets.
7 Q. Are there different reporting requirements for
8 ARRA SIGs?
9 A. Yes. Yes, there are. They have to go through
10 the 1512 reporting.
11 Q. Are there different -- and if you don't know the
12 answer, just say so. Are there different requirements for
13 qualifying for ARRA SIGs as opposed to the other kinds of
14 SIGs that you have?
15 A. I don't know that. I do know, if I may add, that
16 they're very particular at that time -- at least when they
17 gave out the funds, they were very particular that you use
18 it for no other purpose except, you know, what they had
19 given it for.
20 Q. Before you explained in more detail the ARRA
21 funds to us, we were talking about a meeting that you
22 attended right before you left in the summer of 2011. What
23 kind of a discussion took place with respect to ARRA funds
24 in Fremont 38 during that meeting?
25 A. I don't -- I believe that there were no acronyms
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 633
1 for these programs when I left, or if there were, I was not
2 privy to those. So I didn't hear about Wy Read or T2T or
3 any of those things, but they did -- Sheryl did talk about
4 tutors and reading and some various things like that, and
5 the discussion was could they use ARRA funds for it.
6 At first it was the state fiscal stimulus fund,
7 which is one ARRA award, and I -- I did not know if that
8 would be appropriate. I did not -- I never heard about the
9 ARRA SIG until I returned. I mean, I heard of it, but I
10 didn't know that they were using that for that program.
11 But I did say that they would have to get permission from
12 the feds. They would have to write something up and, you
13 know, if this were appropriate and the feds accepted this,
14 then they could use those ARRA funds.
15 Q. Did you give any indication as to who the
16 Department needed to get permission from to be able to do
17 this?
18 A. I don't remember, but each grant award has the
19 name of a federal contact. So that would have been real
20 easy to get.
21 Q. At some point in time then did you -- after you
22 returned to the Department of Education, did you learn that
23 the Department had used the ARRA school improvement grant
24 funds to pay for the Wyoming Read protocol in Fremont 38?
25 A. Yes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 634
1 Q. What did you learn?
2 A. I -- I think it was when we were pulling some
3 information for this committee actually that I saw that and
4 raised some concerns for me. And so I brought it up to the
5 auditors as a concern just to make sure that, you know, the
6 permission had been given for this particular program.
7 Because this is not an evidence or -- I'm not sure. I'm
8 not a program person, but I wanted to make sure that this
9 was evidence based and all the things that full and
10 permanent grants are supposed to be.
11 Q. Do you know whether permission was ever given by
12 anyone with the federal government to use the ARRA SIG
13 funds for the Wyoming Read protocol in Fremont 38?
14 A. I don't know that.
15 Q. When you met with the auditors, did they give you
16 any indication about whether they knew?
17 A. No. I did speak to Robert Dahill, as I said,
18 just the other day, and he said that would be part of our
19 exit conference.
20 Q. If you will turn to Bailey Exhibit Number 1 in
21 the exhibit notebook. Are you familiar with that document?
22 A. I am.
23 Q. And what is it?
24 A. This is from our grants management, our federal
25 Grants Management System, and this is a payment report that
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 635
1 shows a payment of 104,189 to Fremont 38, Arapahoe
2 Elementary. It also shows that it's school improvement
3 money. That's about it on this page.
4 Q. And then if you'll turn to -- I'm going to have
5 you tie all these things together in a minute, okay? So
6 will you turn to Bailey Exhibit Number 2 and tell the
7 committee what that document is?
8 A. Exhibit Number 2, not the rest of -- Number 1,
9 I'm sorry. Oh, I see. The rest of Exhibit Number 1,
10 Mr. Jarosh, is just a --
11 Q. Oh, yes.
12 A. -- is another report, but it does show the same
13 thing --
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. -- in a different way.
16 Q. And then will you explain to the committee what
17 Bailey Exhibit Number 2 is?
18 A. This is also from the Grants Management System.
19 This one shows also at the top that it's Fremont 38, that
20 it's Arapahoe Elementary, and underneath that it says
21 '11-'12 1003(g) school improvement ARRA. So that indicates
22 it's ARRA. And then down below in the expenditure
23 description kind of in the middle of the page in
24 itemization, it talks about the WYR tutor charges, and
25 that's the 104,189.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 636
1 Q. And then will you tell the jury what Bailey
2 Exhibit Number 4 is?
3 A. 4?
4 Q. Did I say jury? I'm sorry. Will you please tell
5 the committee -- I'm used to being -- will you tell the
6 committee --
7 A. 4, not 3?
8 Q. Yeah, 4.
9 A. 4 is the WOLFS -- this is from our budget
10 management system, and as Trent Carroll testified, our
11 budget management system every time WOLFS processes,
12 usually twice a week, the next morning we come in and we
13 import all those files directly into it, and it just makes
14 it in a more user friendly. If you've ever looked at a
15 WOLFS report, they're not very user friendly.
16 And this just shows that the budget code is 6552,
17 and as I indicated, 6500 are ARRA funds. 6552 particularly
18 was the ARRA SIG fund, and it shows the payment for that
19 same amount.
20 Q. So you've kind of done this already, and this is
21 probably the hardest question you're going to get, but
22 using Exhibit 1, Exhibit 2 and Exhibit 4, will you explain
23 to the committee how it is that those documents evidence
24 that a payment to Fremont 38 for the Wyoming Read protocol
25 was made out of the ARRA SIG as opposed to just a general
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 637
1 SIG?
2 A. The second part on Exhibit 1, as I indicated, if
3 I go back -- let me look. Let's see. Let me see if it
4 says it on this next one. On the second page of Exhibit 1
5 at the top, it talks about 1003(g) school improvement,
6 ARRA, and let's see. On the second page where that 104,189
7 is -- is everybody following me -- it also says 1003 school
8 improvement ARRA.
9 And so what happens is the district will access
10 on-line the Grants Management System, request reimbursement
11 for expenditures. They also have initially gone in and
12 obtained grant awards through that. So they know they have
13 a certain amount. And this system tracks the original
14 amount and what the previous payments were and what the
15 outstanding balance is to make sure there's no
16 overpayments.
17 And so this shows that this payment was made in
18 March of '12, and then the WOLFS document that I gave you
19 or it says WOLFS at the top, but it's WOLFS transactions,
20 but it's from our budget management system, I think that's
21 Exhibit 4. That also says the same amount, but it actually
22 has the correct budget number, which is 6552.
23 Q. All right.
24 A. That can be proven in WOLFS --
25 Q. Okay.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 638
1 A. -- by the State Auditor's Office.
2 Q. And you testified this is something that the
3 auditors asked you about in your meeting in September?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you also have some awareness with respect to
6 the Paul Williams issue that Mr. Carroll and Mr. Hansen
7 have already testified about?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Is that another one of the issues that the
10 auditors asked you about in September?
11 A. They did. Trent Carroll had to give them most of
12 the information because a lot of this was during the time I
13 was at School Facilities, but I believe, as I remember, he
14 had started work before I left, and I just remember finance
15 division's gossip about possible disasters. And I just
16 remember people talking about how he was already working
17 and going to meetings and saying that he worked for the
18 Department, but we did not have a signed contract.
19 Q. Do you remember any other issues or areas that
20 the auditors asked you questions about at that meeting in
21 September?
22 A. Time and effort sheets. That made me concerned.
23 Q. Can you be any more specific? Do you remember
24 what it is that they asked you about?
25 A. I was just concerned because I believe they're
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 639
1 going to find when they compare what these people testified
2 to, they sign these under -- I think there's a perjury
3 clause there, too, on the time and effort. When they sign
4 these, you know, they sign this is the reality of the hours
5 that they worked on these particular initiatives, so many
6 hours of a state initiative, so many of the federals, and
7 there may be another federal program. And then if you go
8 back to look at the accounting records, because of the way
9 that we budget in the biennial and supplemental budget,
10 usually these people are just based in a budget, and so we
11 have to do expenditure modifications after the fact to
12 reflect the reality of the time that they worked, and I
13 don't know that that was done, so...
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. And for whatever reason, this is, I guess,
16 maybe -- I don't know if this is conjecture, but for
17 whatever reason that we as a department would have for not
18 having that done, not moving those expenditures,
19 regardless, in an audit my assumption is that we're going
20 to have to pay all that money back.
21 Q. And I guess we'll -- you'll know the answer to
22 that when you meet with the auditors.
23 A. Yes, sir, next week.
24 Q. Can you explain to the committee why you left the
25 Department in 2011?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 640
1 A. The director for the -- at that time for the
2 School Facilities Department approached me and offered me a
3 position. It was a promotion for me, and I'm close enough
4 to retirement that that sounded good.
5 Q. Okay. I now have -- I'm going to ask you basic
6 questions that Superintendent Hill submitted. You've heard
7 me do this with other witnesses. Superintendent Hill's
8 first question, are you familiar with the penalties for
9 perjury and that you are subject to those penalties should
10 you provide false testimony?
11 A. I don't know what the penalties are. I'm sure
12 they're unpleasant, but I'm telling the truth, so...
13 Q. Did you speak with anyone prior to today about
14 your testimony before this committee, including Mr. Jarosh,
15 Mr. Salzburg or representatives from their firms, members
16 of the legislature or other staff or employees of the
17 State, such as the Governor's Office or the Wyoming
18 Department of Education regarding these proceedings today
19 or Senate File 104?
20 A. I did speak to you, to you.
21 Q. Will you describe the conversation in detail and
22 how long it took?
23 A. This is terrible. It was right before our JAC
24 budget hearing. So I can't remember all the details, I'm
25 sorry. You asked questions. We brought forth other
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 641
1 concerns, and you took notes. And Mr. Carroll was there as
2 well, and he asked for copies of that -- those notes, and
3 you gave that to us. And I think it lasted like an hour
4 and a half.
5 Q. Did I or any of my representatives instruct you
6 that your testimony must be truthful and, if based on
7 speculation, conjecture or opinion, must be stated as such?
8 A. Absolutely.
9 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence
10 relating to your testimony?
11 A. Just what's in the book.
12 Q. Have you provided those documents to the
13 committee and superintendent?
14 A. I have provided them to the committee, yes.
15 Q. Were you interviewed as a part of the MacPherson
16 report?
17 A. You know, I was. I didn't submit anything
18 myself, but they asked me to come and verify a couple of
19 things, a couple of concerns that they had.
20 Q. Do statements attributed to you in the MacPherson
21 report accurately reflect your testimony to that committee?
22 A. I don't think there's anything about me in the
23 MacPherson report.
24 Q. Now just a couple of specific questions that
25 Superintendent Hill submitted for you.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 642
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Ms. Bailey, were you responsible for making
3 accounting adjustments on behalf of the Wyoming Department
4 of Education related to federal funds?
5 A. I thought about this. I don't know if she has
6 something specific in mind. So I'm just going to answer
7 these in a general way. But my staff, yes, is responsible
8 for that. There's a process for that.
9 Q. Are those adjustments the results of a federal
10 audit or review?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Are those adjustments the result of instructions
13 you received from the Governor's Office?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Are those adjustments the result of some other
16 directive by your supervisor or others?
17 A. The process in the Department of Education is
18 there's a form to fill out. If you want to make an
19 expenditure modification, which I'm assuming that's what
20 she means by accounting adjustment, if you want to make an
21 expenditure modification, there would be various reasons
22 for that. For instance, if someone -- if you were looking
23 at your budget and you noticed that someone had put a
24 charge on their P card for something and you thought that
25 was not right and it was maybe a typo or, you know, you
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 643
1 questioned that, then that program person or division
2 administrator will fill out a form and tell us, you know,
3 the incorrect budget that it processed through, the correct
4 budget they want it to move to and what happened and sign
5 it, and so that's what we do.
6 Q. In your experience, is this the normal way that
7 adjustments are initiated?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. JAROSH: I see that Speaker Lubnau has
10 left, but Representative Brown, those are all the questions
11 that Superintendent Hill submitted for Ms. Bailey.
12 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Committee questions
13 for Ms. Bailey? Representative Baker.
14 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Thank you, Majority
15 Floor Leader.
16 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
17 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BAKER) Miss Bailey, do you
18 feel there will be significant findings in the A-133 audit
19 report requiring federal -- or payback for federal money
20 beyond the time sheets example that you gave us? And if
21 so, could you elaborate?
22 A. Well, Mr. Chairman, I've -- it's my fear that
23 there will be federal paybacks, yes, findings and federal
24 paybacks. I think the time and effort -- I know the time
25 and effort logs are not going to reflect the payroll, and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 644
1 as I say, for whatever reason or whoever's fault that is, I
2 do believe that that will be a payback situation. I don't
3 know about the ARRA funds because I don't know, you know,
4 if that was -- if it perhaps was -- you know, they were
5 contacted and had permission for that, I don't know that.
6 If not, then I would think that would be a payback
7 situation.
8 There are other kind of findings that don't
9 require a payback. In previous years, years ago we had one
10 for suspension in department. If contracts are supposed to
11 say -- if it's using federal funds, they're supposed to
12 have a clause in there that says, you know, I testify --
13 you know, I testify that I have not been suspended or
14 debarred from doing business with the federal government.
15 And then there's a website that is called Excluded Parties
16 List that agencies are supposed to go and check to make
17 sure that they really aren't excluded. And that wasn't
18 done in some cases, but that doesn't require a federal --
19 because we lucked out and those people were not excluded,
20 there was no payback.
21 So not every federal audit finding has a payback,
22 but I do believe that time and effort, I know that time and
23 effort does.
24 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
25 Baker.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 645
1 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Thank you, Majority
2 Floor Leader.
3 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BAKER) Miss Bailey, can you
4 at all give us an estimate on an amount that you think
5 might be due?
6 A. All I can tell you is when I found the one from
7 2005 that was a time and effort, that was one person and
8 that was $13,000.
9 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Committee, other
10 members of the committee? Representative Madden.
11 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Thank you,
12 Mr. Chairman. I have kind of a series -- Mr. Chairman, I
13 have a series of questions. I was just wondering if I
14 could proceed?
15 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Please do.
16 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) Ms. Bailey, the first
17 thing I want to do is go through in a little bit more
18 detail than the attorney did of the disbursement detail
19 report that would be starting on page 2 of the Exhibit 1, I
20 guess it is.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. And as we do this, we'll probably try to retrofit
23 this with Exhibit 2 --
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. -- and show everybody the corollaries of that.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 646
1 A. Uh-hum.
2 Q. And the first thing I want to get cleared up is
3 that as you go down the budget numbers, you'll see without
4 going through all the digits, there's one that ends in 630,
5 there's one that ends in 090. And I gathered by looking at
6 some of the background material you provided that one of
7 them you call a SIG award and one you call an ARRA award.
8 Is that a SIG award, too?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So they have two of them?
11 A. Uh-hum.
12 Q. But when you look at these wherever they
13 appear --
14 A. Uh-hum.
15 Q. -- like if you go to the second page -- well,
16 even the first page, you'll see that all of these say ARRA
17 on them, okay? But you're saying that the ones that end
18 with 90 are the ones that you think are inappropriate. Is
19 that --
20 A. That's correct. That's correct.
21 Q. Now, you further say in some background material
22 here that you think that the amount of exposure we have in
23 that could amount to $130,000, or as much as 130. That's
24 about right. And what I want to do is, you know, the way
25 this disbursement detail report kind of is arranged, the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 647
1 oldest one is the last one, right?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. So the 104, if you go to page 2, the 104,189,
4 would that correspond to the very first payment that was
5 made? And it's, you know, it corresponds to going to
6 Exhibit 2 to the first cash request. Is that right?
7 A. The person -- I didn't pull this information
8 myself, and federal programs actually has the
9 responsibility for the eGrants system, but I'm just
10 familiar with them because they come through our system as
11 well. And so this is an interface directly with WOLFS, and
12 depending on what -- it has custom query abilities. So
13 depending on what they put for a start date and a stop date
14 would be what you get on this report. So I'm not sure.
15 There may be payments before this time. I would suspect
16 there were.
17 Q. Well, let's straighten that out. If there is one
18 before this time, it wouldn't be called cash request number
19 1, then, right, because this one is already cash request
20 number 1?
21 A. That's true. So possibly this is the first time.
22 Because they incur -- and I think I heard the testimony
23 from the superintendent from Fremont 38 yesterday, too,
24 that there was a time lag in here between the time that
25 they first started this program and then they asked for
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 648
1 reimbursement. So this is probably the first cash flow
2 request. I would verify that, though, Representative
3 Madden.
4 Q. Okay. Do you know -- or let me say it this way:
5 We do know by looking at the cash request number 1 from the
6 eGrants Management that is a reimbursement for WYR tutor
7 charges, right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. So that would have been a check that would go to
10 the Arapahoe School.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And if we look at that, it's got a check
13 or I should say the account number or budget number I
14 should say that does end in 090.
15 A. That's correct. And those are always ARRA funds.
16 Q. ARRA funds?
17 A. Uh-hum.
18 Q. Now, are these ARRA funds the appropriate funds
19 to be using to pay this? In other words, is that part of
20 this $130,000 exposure that you think we may have or not?
21 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you yet if it's
22 appropriate or not because I don't know if they got
23 permission. If they talked to the federal representative
24 and they said yes, that fits with these ARRA funds, the
25 purpose of these ARRA funds, then these would all be
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 649
1 appropriate, and there wouldn't be an audit finding.
2 Q. If that's the case, then our $130,000 exposure
3 goes away, too, right?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. So that's pretty speculative right now at this
6 time?
7 A. Yes. I wish it were next week.
8 Q. There's -- if you look at the Exhibit 3.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. There's cash requests 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 -- no,
11 there isn't. There is one missing. We've got cash request
12 1. We've got cash request 2, 3 and 5. Now, how does that
13 come up that these cash requests don't come in consecutive
14 numeric amounts?
15 A. I will tell you truthfully that I'm not as
16 familiar with this particular system as some other members
17 of the WDE.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. I'm not sure.
20 Q. Okay. If you can't answer, that's fine.
21 A. Yeah, sorry.
22 Q. We'll move to something else. Let's go to cash
23 request 5.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. And this is divided into wages, benefits,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 650
1 purchased services and supplies and materials. Wages, is
2 that what you would expect as wages for the tutors that
3 were hired?
4 A. I wouldn't -- it depends on how long they waited
5 to be reimbursed to, Representative Madden. And how many
6 tutors there would be, I wouldn't -- without contacting the
7 district, I wouldn't be able to answer that, I'm sorry.
8 Q. Yeah, Miss Bailey, you probably weren't here to
9 listen to the time sequence of the thing, but the situation
10 was that they started spending money on tutors in
11 September, beginning of September, 1st of September, and in
12 October and November, and finally in December the grant was
13 approved.
14 A. Uh-hum.
15 Q. So there's a bunch of backfill that needed to be
16 taken care of because they were spending the money out of
17 their own reserves. But you just don't have the knowledge
18 of this -- this grant program in Arapahoe to know just what
19 those line items are for, then?
20 A. I don't. I would say that if you look at the
21 column that says Final Approved Budget.
22 Q. Uh-hum.
23 A. In that 100 series, which is wages, they did
24 award $566,325 for their wages.
25 Q. Let's go to -- we get to cash -- grant cash
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 651
1 request 8.
2 A. 8.
3 Q. That's a big one.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. And it appears to be one that was, you know,
6 looking at -- kind of backed into I kind of wonder because
7 it's almost the same as what was budgeted for that first
8 budget year. And you'll see that there's an amount of
9 purchased services for the period from 1-1-20, that's the
10 300 series there and then the 100 series, and wages for the
11 period.
12 Now, I would assume there's some backfill or
13 something going on for the wages for the tutors in that
14 100, but I'm troubled and still don't have a good idea
15 after studying this and looking at it for months now of
16 what these purchased services were, because when you say
17 services, that sounds like a professional services or
18 something like that. And for a while I was thinking, well,
19 that must be money that was reverted to the Department of
20 Education to reimburse them, but that's not the case; is
21 that right?
22 A. That's correct. And I would be happy,
23 Representative Madden, to talk to the federal program
24 people and find out specifically what those mean. I don't
25 have access to the system right here, but I think there are
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 652
1 other screens that you can go to that explain the 100 and
2 the 200 and the 300.
3 Q. So, Ms. Bailey, there's nobody in Wyoming that
4 can give me an answer on that thing; is that right?
5 A. I believe there is.
6 Q. Oh.
7 A. I believe in federal -- in the federal programs,
8 the people who actually run this Grants Management System
9 have the answer to that.
10 Q. And they're here in Cheyenne.
11 A. Yes. Right here. And again, I would offer to
12 get you that information if you would like.
13 Q. Let's see where we go here first.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. I asked to have Bailey Exhibit Number 5 put in
16 here, and all it amounts to is just Chapter 6 of the
17 MacPherson report, page 21, and they had a summary of the
18 expenditure, you know. Admittedly it was a very brief
19 summary, but it's a summary of what had been spent on WYR.
20 And the first is a payment from federal funds to the school
21 coaches, and I would assume that would have been SSoS funds
22 to the two coaches, Brutsman and Brummond, right?
23 A. I would assume so, yes.
24 Q. So if you divide them roughly in half, 65,000 out
25 of their $93,000 check?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 653
1 A. Uh-hum.
2 Q. Okay. Now, the other part is a grant payments to
3 the district?
4 A. Uh-hum.
5 Q. And that would be the SIG grant payments. And
6 we've just gone through the disbursement detail report for
7 the 2010-2011 period, and you'll see on page 3 of your
8 Exhibit 2 -- or is it Exhibit 1 -- I think Exhibit 1, they
9 spent 545. So in one case we've got 346, and in another
10 case we've got 545. Could you or is there anybody that
11 could explain how to reconcile these two numbers?
12 A. I see the 545 and tell me the other number, I'm
13 sorry.
14 Q. Okay. That would be on Exhibit 5. Do you have
15 that in your --
16 A. Oh, I just got it.
17 Q. Okay. This is just nothing but the last page of
18 Chapter 6, page 21 of Chapter 6, and they say grant
19 payments to districts for the first year is 346, and then
20 in this disbursement detail it's 545.
21 A. I'm not -- I can't remember the dates. But this
22 might be the difference. The dates of the MacPherson --
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. -- thing. But if some of these things happened
25 after that, that would explain the difference.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 654
1 Q. Okay. That could very well be the case.
2 A. Yeah, that's usually the case in something like
3 that.
4 Q. Okay. I'll check that.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Next thing I wanted to go over is the concept of
7 a requisition form.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And are you familiar with them?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And do -- could you give us kind of a layman's
12 explanation of what a requisition form is for?
13 A. If I could start back just a little bit. When we
14 decide to contract with somebody for services, you know,
15 that process goes through the AG's, but there's no
16 particular -- there are sometimes no particular budget
17 numbers involved in that contract, and it's just the
18 deliverables, the amounts, the dates and those kind of
19 things. And the AG reviews it for that but doesn't review
20 it for does the WDE actually have funds or are those funds
21 appropriate for those services.
22 Then the requisition form itself is filled out by
23 the division that wants to contract for these services, and
24 they are responsible for the funding. They are to put the
25 funding codes on there.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 655
1 When it's entered into the WOLFS system, the
2 WOLFS system -- first of all, we check on our budget
3 management system to make sure there really are those
4 funds. Occasionally there will be a federal contract that
5 won't be -- the entirety won't be encumbered because it
6 goes through -- in education we get our grant awards like
7 Title I, for instance. We get those on an annual basis,
8 but they last 30 months. So we'll have three of those
9 going on at the same time, one of them just ending, one in
10 the middle, you know, one just beginning. And so
11 occasionally people will say, okay, I'm going to contract
12 for $500,000 -- I'm just making this up -- and -- but I
13 only have $250,000, but in July I'm going to have another
14 $250,000, and so we're allowed to do that as well.
15 The requisition form after it's filled out as far
16 as the budget responsibility and the coding is also signed
17 by the division administrator, I believe. Yeah, the
18 division administrator.
19 Q. In layman's terms, Miss Bailey, would you
20 alternatively call this a means of payment form in the case
21 of contracts? That is to say an intended means of payment
22 paid?
23 A. It's a payment obligation, sir.
24 Q. Okay. I'm looking at --
25 A. I forgot to address the chair all this time. I
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 656
1 apologize.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: That's okay.
3 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: He's ignoring us.
4 THE WITNESS: Sorry. I may continue that,
5 Mr. Chair?
6 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Were you talking?
7 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Please do.
8 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
9 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) The logic behind a
10 requisition form, is there some normal system where the
11 agency budget numbers would bear some kind of relationship
12 to what the consulting contract would be directed to be
13 doing?
14 A. Yes, absolutely. There should be that
15 correlation.
16 Q. I've got one here in front of me. This just
17 happens to be Ms. Lesher's contract, and it was for
18 $46,666, and what was done here in this requisition form is
19 that you have $15,555.56 taken out of three different
20 budgets. Now, these budgets, one budget is -- the agency
21 number is 6105 and one is 6106 and one is 6108.
22 A. Uh-hum.
23 Q. Now, when I go to the budget book and find out
24 what these budgets are, 6105 is called assessment --
25 A. Yes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 657
1 Q. -- budget. And 6106 is teacher leader quality.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And 6108 is accreditation.
4 A. That's correct. They're all state budgets.
5 Q. They're all state budgets, that's true.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But is there some obligation on the part of
8 people that put these things together that you don't
9 just -- there should be some -- if you're going to pay
10 15,000 out of the assessment budget, there should be
11 $15,000 worth of work coming in the area of assessment,
12 right?
13 A. You're right. And I believe that in our audit
14 process we do look at those contracts, the deliverables in
15 the contracts, and try to make some kind of connection with
16 those, the funding that they put in. That was when I
17 wasn't here, so -- I mean at the Department.
18 Q. Do you know what Ms. Lesher's responsibilities
19 were in regard to this contract?
20 A. I don't, sorry.
21 Q. It was a Wyo type of lecture delivery type thing
22 that was done. Whose responsibility is it to make sure
23 that there is an alignment between what -- what budgets are
24 being used and what professional services are being
25 performed?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 658
1 A. I would say it's a twofold responsibility. It
2 should be the division administrator. They should know all
3 of the expenses, especially contracts that come out of
4 their budgets. They're supposed to sign for those things.
5 They definitely have to sign their contract. But also I
6 think finance. Because of our internal controls, we have
7 some responsibility to see if those are appropriate.
8 We are not program people. So sometimes, you
9 know, we ask for further explanation, there is a logical
10 explanation. At least when I was there before and since
11 I've been back, nobody objects if I ask those questions.
12 Nobody seems to think that's intrusive. They seem to be
13 glad that I'm asking those questions.
14 I'm not sure what happened when I was gone, and I
15 don't say that in regard to the finance division because I
16 think those people work very hard to make sure as much as
17 possible that things stayed on track. As they testified,
18 both Trent Carroll and Greg Hansen, there was management
19 override.
20 But I do believe it's a twofold -- I'm sorry, to
21 get back to your question, it's a twofold responsibility.
22 It should be the division administrator who has that
23 funding, and it should also be the finance unit.
24 Q. In cases where there is no budget or agency
25 budget number to finance some kind of activity within a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 659
1 department, does it ever happen that someone that puts one
2 of these together will just kind of look around whatever
3 budget's got money in it and look for money that way and
4 come up with this hodgepodge of different budgets to make
5 the total add up?
6 A. That may have happened. I wasn't privy to that.
7 Q. Okay. The next thing -- I hate to take so much
8 time here, but I have a bunch of stuff. The next thing I
9 want to talk about is payment vouchers, and I assume
10 someone in your office deals with payment vouchers.
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And when we looked at the payment vouchers of the
13 parties that were involved in the Wyo teaching of the
14 Arapahoe, they accompanied each of these requests for
15 payments with a guide called a time calendar or something
16 like that, tells what they did every day and how many hours
17 they spent, that kind of thing.
18 A. Uh-hum.
19 Q. And as a layperson like myself, is it appropriate
20 for me to rely on those time sheets as being accurate as
21 far as defining what they're doing?
22 A. If they sign them, yes.
23 Q. Okay. So if we have some of these people that
24 are doing tutoring and they list tutoring as part of their
25 job that day and coaching as part of their job and teaching
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 660
1 as part of their job, is it appropriate for me to accept
2 the fact that they were using these people for teaching,
3 for example, if they put it on their time sheet for
4 teaching? Do you see what I'm getting at?
5 A. And I wouldn't be able to answer that to your
6 satisfaction, I think, because I would have to know all the
7 program details, and I'm definitely not a program person.
8 When program areas cross over into financial areas, then I
9 learn. But I would think in the WDE when the people that
10 are federally funded sign their time and effort logs every
11 month, which is basically what you're speaking about, their
12 supervisor has to sign those as well.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. So I --
15 Q. So if something like teaching is in there, we can
16 rely on it as being, in fact, spent, time spent teaching,
17 and whether or not it was appropriate to be teaching, a
18 state employee should be teaching in a public school system
19 is another deal we have to deal with, right?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Okay. The next thing I want to talk about is --
22 this was a submittal I think you had played a part in
23 supplying our subcommittee, and that was a request for --
24 what was it? A request for documents.
25 A. Uh-hum.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 661
1 Q. You gave us a request for documents and you
2 satisfied it in the form of 1850 pages that we had to all
3 read or I had to read anyway.
4 A. Yes. My apologies.
5 Q. A lot of it was these requisitions or payment
6 vouchers, requests for payments. But as you get towards
7 the bottom of that, there's about 300 pages of travel
8 requests, and it seems like in the case for Fremont 38 that
9 the people are going up there and staying in the Holiday
10 Inn or wherever they were staying, an extraordinary amount
11 of money went to -- well, an extraordinary amount of money
12 was drawn out of the accreditation account to pay for
13 travel. And that struck me as kind of weird, and
14 somebody -- there was several of these that kept coming,
15 you know, one after the another of those 300 pages that
16 said, "Travel for so-and-so must come from budget 6108 per
17 Sheryl Lain." And my question is if that is an
18 inappropriate source of travel money and you know it is,
19 what can you do about it when someone calls you and says
20 pay for it anyway?
21 A. I'm glad you asked me that.
22 Q. I am, too.
23 A. I wasn't here at that time, but my feelings as
24 chief financial officer is, first of all, we -- one of the
25 things that Trent Carroll and I have been talking about is
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 662
1 beefing up our internal controls so that they are so
2 specific, incredibly specific.
3 And we also talked about the idea that Trent
4 presented here, too, that we would like to be able to, if
5 something like this happens again, and it seems like it's
6 happened before, that we would like to be able to talk to
7 experts in other agencies like the AG's Office or the
8 Department of Audit.
9 I personally have called McGee, Hearne & Paiz to
10 ask about allowability on federal funds if I can't find it
11 in EDGAR, which is the U.S. Department of Education's
12 guidance. But I -- that's -- the former CFO, Fred Hansen,
13 was not at will. He was not at will. He was a vested
14 employee. I have that position, but I am at will. I am
15 comfortable with that. I don't know how you folks feel
16 about it.
17 Q. Well --
18 A. But I think that it is the obligation of the
19 chief financial officer and the finance division to follow
20 state statutes, state guidance and federal guidance and all
21 of these. That's our job.
22 And I think it is our job to question when -- I
23 think those notes per Sheryl Lain or something were
24 probably someone's attempt that didn't feel comfortable
25 approving that, doing the pre or the post-audit, and they
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 663
1 wrote that in there just to show their little protest.
2 Q. And occasionally there would be one that would
3 say an error notification and they say we're not going to
4 pay this.
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. And the next thing you know, it comes back
7 through and it says pay it.
8 A. Management override, I'm assuming.
9 Q. Now, I guess legislators are naive, but I think
10 most of us sitting here thinks that when a budget is out of
11 money, you know, i.e. travel budgets, appropriate travel
12 budget, that that invokes the need for a B-11 process where
13 you might find another budget, another state budget, state
14 to state, and you would run it through the normal channels.
15 A. Uh-hum.
16 Q. And I can't find any examples where the B-11 is
17 used in the Department or has been used over this period in
18 the Department of Education. Is there some reason for
19 that?
20 A. I'm sorry, I wouldn't know that since Fred Hansen
21 was the CFO at that time and I wasn't even here, but that
22 is the plan. If we have this same situation where
23 someone -- a budget runs out of money for some situation,
24 it will -- if we wanted to move any kind of funding, it's
25 going to go through the B-11 process.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 664
1 Q. Now, we just got done with an audit, management
2 audit, and that's what we studied for six months, and it
3 seemed like that was -- and I think the naivete of
4 legislators comes about because we thought that there was
5 integrity to these line items and would give you feedback
6 for the next year -- I keep saying budgets, but okay. I've
7 got -- I went through and spent a lot of time getting these
8 things together and found in connection with this WYR or
9 this Fremont 38 process, there was probably up to 20 -- at
10 least $22,648 of accreditation money spent on these
11 contracts. Does that seem like it's possible?
12 A. It seems like the contracts themselves, if it was
13 spent on the contracts, it should be -- it should be in the
14 deliverables, you know, something that points to
15 accreditation, and that it should have been on the
16 requisition that we discussed and pulled that way. If it
17 wasn't, it was incorrect as far as I can tell.
18 Q. Now, further, my estimates for the travel that
19 was pulled out for various people is about $34,000. Do you
20 think that could be possible?
21 And what I've done, Miss Bailey, is I've gone
22 through all those travels, whenever somebody rented a car
23 and they said it came out of 6108, I wrote it down. I just
24 went right down the line. Do you think that's possible we
25 could have spent that much money out of accreditation for
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 665
1 travel?
2 A. It would depend on -- I think on how long that
3 lasted, that initiative lasted, and people were traveling
4 back and forth. And travel can be real expensive, but this
5 is not out-of-state travel. So I don't know that.
6 Q. Okay. The last thing I want to talk about is the
7 Wyoming Reading Council. And there was some allusion made
8 to the fact that this might have been -- this grant to the
9 Wyoming Reading Council might have come from federal funds.
10 Can you share any light on that for us?
11 A. I know there were payments made to the Wyoming
12 Reading Council. I believe -- and I don't know if I can
13 look back here at Trent and see if I'm correct, but I
14 believe they were probably flow-through funds that we
15 flowed through to that -- to that vendor.
16 I think -- and I discussed this at the last break
17 with Trent Carroll. I think that we sent over those
18 payments. They won't be very helpful to the committee
19 because they -- you know, they're just payments directly to
20 the Wyoming Reading Council. But someone had me look at
21 the website at that time, and it had a list of directors
22 and different people that were on that council, and Sheryl
23 Lain's name was on there. So that's why I sent those
24 payments over. It's not on there anymore today. I looked.
25 Q. You mentioned this as one of your audit concerns,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 666
1 and that's the reason I brought it up. You know, I don't
2 know if there's any validity to this. Of course, you don't
3 know so you can audit it.
4 A. Uh-hum.
5 Q. There's some concern that the money was -- money
6 was being sent to the Wyoming Reading Council and the
7 Wyoming Reading Council is contracting with the former T2T
8 consultants, or whatever you call them, to deliver T2T kind
9 of through what are called a filtering type of mechanism.
10 Do you have any knowledge of that or not?
11 A. I heard rumor to that effect, yes.
12 Q. But an audit would be able to pick it up?
13 A. An audit of that vendor, yes. And depending on
14 now much they had, they would qualify for an A-133 audit,
15 too, I would think if they had over $500,000 of federal
16 expenditures.
17 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: I think that's all
18 I've got, and thank you for your indulgence.
19 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
20 Zwonitzer.
21 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thank you,
22 Chairman.
23 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Will you be any
24 longer than Representative Madden?
25 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) I have whittled
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 667
1 that down to six questions now. And all of my questions
2 that I mention WDE are going to relate to your previous
3 time and are not current.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. I think that will save time. First, do you
6 remember anytime Superintendent Hill mentioning the
7 Department would not be taking stimulus funds or her
8 thoughts or beliefs on the stimulus package and if the
9 Department could take funds or not?
10 A. I do think when she first came, she was not real
11 keen on taking any kind of program.
12 Q. Would it surprise you, then, that we paid out of
13 federal ARRA funds for this program in Fremont?
14 A. Only -- yes. I did not know that they used ARRA
15 SIG funds, and like I said, that might be allowable if they
16 got permission from the feds.
17 Q. While you were there at WDE, did you ever feel
18 intimidated, bullied or harassed by the superintendent or
19 members of her leadership team?
20 A. You're going to make me talk about that. I felt
21 distrusted and demeaned, and it was hard.
22 Q. So suffice it to say you didn't feel valued as an
23 employee.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Were you ever asked to scrub numbers or did
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 668
1 anything lead you to question finances during your previous
2 employment?
3 A. Never asked to scrub numbers.
4 Q. Any overrides that you thought were odd and the
5 manager came back and said don't take that override?
6 A. The only things I can remember are some concerns
7 that I had. Just that -- and this happens with other
8 directors, not just Superintendent Hill, or other
9 superintendents. Sometimes they come in and they have a
10 hard time with the processes and procedures in state
11 government and don't understand things.
12 So there were some instances of purchases that
13 were done, you know, without all the standard steps that we
14 need to take. And so I would go to Fred Hansen and say,
15 you know, somebody needs to talk to them, because it's not
16 fair that they don't understand this, and, you know.
17 And I guess -- I was never privy to those
18 meetings, but I think he talked to her or the leadership.
19 And sometimes they would -- there would be a lack of
20 understanding on -- initially. Now, you realize I left
21 after eight months. So she was still fairly new and so
22 were her people.
23 But I -- like when they closed the Laramie
24 office, they were happy that they had a savings for the
25 State, and I pointed out that that lease, which was a very
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 669
1 expensive lease -- as far as I know, it's the most
2 expensive lease in the state -- that Laramie office was
3 paid with federal funds, and the move and all the walls
4 taken down to put all those people here, that was paid with
5 state funds. So it did not save the State any. In fact,
6 it cost the State money as far as I could see.
7 Q. Just a quick follow-up. So your opinion as to
8 the move from closing down the Laramie office as was
9 publicized as saving the State money actually cost the
10 State money?
11 A. It actually cost the State money. It saved the
12 feds money.
13 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: That's it,
14 Majority Floor Leader.
15 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
16 Connolly.
17 REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY: Thanks,
18 Mr. Chair.
19 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY) I was trying to
20 follow Representative Madden, and at one point I noticed on
21 the very last page of Exhibit 3 when he was having you go
22 through that reimbursement, request number 8, I think it
23 is, and go to the very last page on Exhibit 4, that there's
24 comments on the bottom. And it's LEA comments. I'm not
25 sure if those were initials or what those are, but it says,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 670
1 "Ok, apparently Ken Deer never ordered anything since
2 January. This is a catch-up. Note, these are incurred,
3 paid expenses. There's also a $100,000 reading program
4 that has been ordered not reflected in these figures."
5 Do you know anything about that $100,000 reading
6 program? And is that WYR and we're paying for WYR in some
7 way or is it something else?
8 A. I do not know. That would be put in there by the
9 folks from the federal programs. And I would be happy to
10 talk to the federal program division administrator, see
11 whose notes those are and then follow up with that expense.
12 REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY: Thank you,
13 Miss Bailey. I would appreciate that.
14 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
15 Throne.
16 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Thank you,
17 Mr. Majority Floor Leader.
18 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Miss Bailey, I just
19 have -- I'm over here.
20 A. Yes, hi.
21 Q. One question. Earlier in your testimony, you
22 spoke about time and effort logs, and then in the 2005
23 audit, there was one time and effort log involved, and how
24 many are at issue in the audit that's ongoing now, if you
25 know?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 671
1 A. I'm trying to remember how many federally -- all
2 are federally funded employees. And so I'm thinking there
3 might be like 30 of those.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 A. Yes.
6 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Mr. Speaker.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thank you, Mr. Majority
8 Floor Leader.
9 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Am I to understand from your
10 testimony earlier that GEMS adjustments that need to be
11 made have not been made and that Department of Education
12 books may not accurately reflect the work that was actually
13 done?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Well, I'll ask you with some new additions now
16 the questions I've asked everybody else. We've heard that
17 payments were made out of several accounts for a program
18 that was arguably prohibited by the legislature, and now
19 you added an account, the ARRA funds, which I think we call
20 them Obama dollars through my limited information.
21 REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY: You should be
22 thankful.
23 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) So we need Obama dollars for
24 that program, that the reports to the legislature were
25 scrubbed, that outside audits only take samples of certain
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 672
1 accounts, and for you that our expenditure tracking doesn't
2 necessarily accurately reflect how the money was spent.
3 The longer I sit here today, the more concerned I become.
4 Do you have any recommendations to the
5 legislature and the people of the state of Wyoming on how
6 we can ensure that funds are spent in accordance with the
7 legislative appropriation, that our books -- and that our
8 books can accurately reflect how we spend our money?
9 A. Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to remember, because you
10 listed several things. Would you go over that list again?
11 Q. Sure.
12 A. I'm sorry, the list of shame.
13 Q. Payments are paid out of several accounts for a
14 program that was arguably prohibited by the legislature.
15 Superintendent Hill disputes that. The legislature
16 maintains it intended differently. That reports to the
17 legislature were scrubbed, that outside audits only take a
18 sample of certain accounts --
19 A. Uh-hum.
20 Q. -- and that our expenditure tracking doesn't
21 necessarily accurately reflect how the money was spent.
22 What kind of ship are we running here?
23 A. Mr. Chairman, if I could retalk about the outside
24 audits. It is true that when McGee, Hearne & Paiz, who are
25 the auditors that do the single statewide audit, which is
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 673
1 the A-133 for each state agency that has federal funds,
2 when they come, ordinarily, because we've had so few, you
3 know, in previous years so few findings and problems, that
4 they have two levels that they do, and so we were on the
5 low-risk level. I'm sure we're on the high-risk level now
6 and will be for -- usually it goes for three years until
7 they can see that these problems are eliminated.
8 Q. Can I stop you right there?
9 A. You bet.
10 Q. Are there any other agencies on the high-risk
11 level in the state of Wyoming?
12 A. Yes, I'm sure there are. I think Department of
13 Health consistently has audit findings.
14 Q. All right.
15 A. I'm not trying to be mean here.
16 Q. No.
17 A. And I did -- I asked them at our initial
18 September meeting, you know, our pre-meeting for the audit,
19 if we were allowed to bring concerns to them, and they said
20 we're always allowed to bring concerns.
21 We've not done that before because we didn't have
22 concerns about, you know, management override or anything
23 else. And so that's why Trent Carroll and I brought a lot
24 of these subjects up so that they would delve in deeply to
25 this, and that even though in previous years we had the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 674
1 zero audit findings and we were on the low-risk thing, I
2 asked them to put us on the high risk.
3 Q. Why did you feel like you could do that this year
4 and that it wasn't done last year?
5 A. Last year was for fiscal year -- this was for
6 fiscal year -- I'm trying to think -- '13 and last year was
7 for fiscal year '12. So that was from June of '11
8 through -- is that right? No, July of '11 through June of
9 '12. Is that right? Am I saying that right, Trent? Yeah.
10 Q. And the reason why I ask is Superintendent Hill
11 was gone after Senate File 104 from what, March of '12 on
12 or March of '13 on?
13 A. She was. And so that would be the first nine
14 months of the year. She was still there for this last
15 time.
16 Q. So then the question is do you have any
17 recommendations on how we can ensure that funds are spent
18 in accordance with legislative appropriation?
19 A. I think I hear your frustration and I empathize.
20 And I would recommend along with what Trent said, Trent
21 Carroll, that, first of all, be reassured that we are
22 working on those internal controls to make them so
23 stringent that if a new director, say, came on board, you
24 know, we could hand him this document, these are the
25 internal controls and these are the things we can and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 675
1 cannot do, to get a better understanding. I mean, I don't
2 know how a new director feels about that level of control,
3 but I just feel like we don't -- we can't let this happen
4 again.
5 And so -- but I do think it is a very good idea
6 that Trent has, and if we could -- I mean, I have done it
7 informally, but if we could formally have a group that
8 would be available not just to us but maybe other agencies
9 have management override -- occasions of management
10 override and that all the agencies could go to to have an
11 outside source and say am I crazy or is this wrong?
12 Q. Did these problems in accounting predate the
13 current superintendent of public instruction?
14 A. Not really, no.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. Can I change that answer?
17 Q. Sure.
18 A. When Trent Blankenship was here. He was here for
19 a short time, but it was hard.
20 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BROWN) Ms. Bailey, I have a
21 couple of questions.
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. The September meeting.
24 A. Uh-hum.
25 Q. When you were -- when you brought a list of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 676
1 concerns to the auditors, I think you heard my questions
2 directed to Mr. Carroll --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- and I don't want to beat that thing to death,
5 but for the life of me, I cannot understand when you're
6 doing the preparatory work with the auditors and you're
7 bringing them -- this is a list of concerns that you're
8 generating, why that list doesn't include the scrubbing
9 that went on to purge any mention of T2T and SpLit and 3+8
10 out -- I guess 3+8 also out of the report that went to the
11 legislature.
12 A. I think -- I discussed this with Trent before I
13 came up here, too. The first I heard of this was when we
14 were talking about the report that we were giving this
15 year, which jogged Trent's memory that -- you know, on the
16 previous year, and he can tell you -- I don't know if he's
17 still under oath, but he can tell you if that's correct or
18 not. But that's the first I heard of it. I think it was
19 when I met with Mr. Jarosh, and I said, "This is serious,
20 Trent. We need to talk about this."
21 That's because it's not -- I don't think that's
22 ever been on any A-133 radar. It's not particularly
23 federal funds. They don't look at the things that the
24 legislature asks for, you know, and it might be something
25 that they need to start looking at. But I -- so I don't
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 677
1 really blame McGee, Hearne & Paiz, because it's just not
2 the normal part of the A-133 audit.
3 I apologize that I didn't know about this before
4 nor did Trent. There's so many things that have happened.
5 If you don't mind me just going over some things
6 that have happened since I've been there in February of
7 this last year. We didn't have -- we had a new agency
8 number. We had to take every single budget, every single
9 position, every single -- all our retirement, our MVMS
10 charges, our ETS charges, all those little tentacles that
11 go out from an agency, and turn that over -- you know, zero
12 out all 005, put it into 206 and bring that up and shut
13 down our accounting for a month at least.
14 Had to meet with the State Auditor's Office and,
15 you know, all kinds of A&I and other agencies, and all --
16 and those people all had to do their things on personnel,
17 and, you know, the retirement system had to change all our
18 numbers and everything else.
19 So that's been our focus. And then we had a
20 reorganization, and so, you know, as most agencies had some
21 zero-based funding this year. When you have a
22 reorganization everything is zero-based funding,
23 everything. We zero out the old stuff, we bring it over
24 into the new structure and try to make things more clear --
25 is it more clear or clearer -- more transparent for
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 678
1 everyone.
2 And so our understanding was that instead of
3 having -- like we did state funds in 6100s and federal
4 funds in 6300s, that other agencies represent these numbers
5 by divisions. And so that's what we did. We had the 1000
6 division, 1100, 1200, 13 and so forth.
7 And these were huge lifts, and I have -- all of
8 my staff has put in tremendous hours. We have been
9 responding to this committee's requests, which we're happy
10 to do, but it's been time-consuming for us as well, and I
11 think it was just overlooked, Representative Brown. I
12 apologize.
13 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Committee, other
14 questions? Anybody?
15 Representative Baker.
16 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Thank you, Majority
17 Floor Leader.
18 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BAKER) Mrs. Bailey, can you
19 explain why you chose to ask for that reclassification for
20 high risk? Just in summary, did you make that decision
21 alone?
22 A. No. I talked to McGee, Hearne & Paiz about it.
23 I don't think I used the term "high risk." I just said is
24 it -- I'm sorry, I can't look at you and talk in the
25 microphone at the same time, but is it permissible for us
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 679
1 to bring concerns, you know, that wouldn't maybe be picked
2 in as random sampling audit like they usually do if you're
3 a low-risk agency. And I just thought because of all the
4 issues that this committee and others have and the
5 questions they have that it would be good to have a
6 baseline and go forward with a clean slate.
7 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Committee, all in,
8 all done? Mr. Speaker.
9 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) These are questions specific
10 to you from Superintendent Hill, and you have three
11 additional exhibits that I don't know if you've seen before
12 or not, but take a minute and get familiar with them.
13 A. I'm familiar with this.
14 Q. Okay. You spoke of ARRA funds for the Fremont 38
15 school improvement grant. Did Fremont 38 know it was an
16 ARRA grant?
17 A. Yes. I do remember this. We had the eGrant
18 system put some -- what's the word, put something in there
19 when they apply for the grant that they testify that they
20 are aware that this is ARRA grants, and they have to check
21 that box.
22 Q. Who made the decision that it would be an ARRA
23 grant rather than a regular grant?
24 A. That I'm sorry, I wasn't here then.
25 Q. Did Superintendent Hill know it was an ARRA
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 680
1 grant?
2 A. I don't know that.
3 Q. You have testified a number of proposed adjusting
4 entries you recommend; is that correct? I think it's the
5 GEM stuff, but I'm not sure.
6 A. So ask -- what is it she's asking again?
7 Q. You testified of a number of proposed adjusting
8 entries you recommend; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, I guess.
10 Q. You were brought back into the Department after
11 Senate File 104; is that true?
12 A. That's true.
13 Q. You took the place of Fred Hansen; is that
14 correct?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Isn't it true that Fred Hansen didn't think the
17 adjustments were appropriate or justified?
18 A. I don't know about it.
19 Q. Was Mr. Hansen asked to resign or retire prior --
20 retire prior to or shortly after Senate File 104 was
21 implemented?
22 A. I don't believe he was. I think he retired.
23 Q. When Superintendent Hill arrived in office in
24 2011 there were many existing positions misaligned; is that
25 correct?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 681
1 A. There were some, yes.
2 Q. How many were there?
3 A. I wouldn't have any idea.
4 Q. What, if anything, have you done to correct the
5 misaligned positions?
6 A. In the '15-'16 -- I'm very happy that I was asked
7 this question. In the '15-'16 budget, we've got all of
8 those people based appropriately and accurately towards
9 their JCQs.
10 Q. Kimberly Harper and Tiffany Dobler testified
11 yesterday that they initiated movement of state monies into
12 federally funded accounts based upon a commitment made in a
13 phone call from a lower level OSEP employee. If they made
14 a mistake in judgment, what internal controls prevented
15 inappropriate flow of money from state funds to federal
16 funds?
17 A. I'm not aware of what that is, but I'll just talk
18 about it in a generic way if that's all right or general
19 way. I have never heard of commingling state and federal
20 funds. We don't commingle state and federal funds.
21 It might be if someone -- and this is just
22 supposition on my part, but if someone incorrectly paid for
23 something out of federal funds and then they wanted to
24 move -- oh, I think that's what she's talking about -- and
25 then they wanted to move it back to a general fund budget,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 682
1 if they have the general fund budget and it's appropriate
2 in that budget, yes, they can do that.
3 Q. After Superintendent Hill was elected but before
4 she was inaugurated, you collaborated with Laurel Ballard
5 to pay $760,000 of invoices from Choice Solutions up to one
6 and a half years of advance work. Was the source federal
7 funds?
8 A. It absolutely was.
9 Q. What internal controls exist now to prevent this?
10 A. There are none because it's allowable.
11 Q. I'll show you what's been marked as Exhibit 6.
12 Can you tell me what that is?
13 A. Yes. This is I think from the MacPherson report
14 where -- I don't remember if it was Cindy, but I think it
15 was Cindy that said she had a concern about paying this.
16 This is a support and maintenance contract for the software
17 that flows the assessment information, you know, back and
18 forth to the -- between the districts and the WDE and the
19 feds.
20 If you don't mind me going on. Support and
21 maintenance contracts are always paid up front. This one
22 is particularly expensive and was appropriate for that
23 federal budget, absolutely appropriate.
24 After her concern, I did go ahead -- and you'll
25 see in Exhibit 8 where I talked to Todd Stevenson, he was
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 683
1 the federal assessment contact with the U.S. Department of
2 Education, just to make sure there wasn't an issue with --
3 what's it called -- with paying it ahead of time. And it's
4 the Cash Management Act. And he said as long as the
5 expense was made and the obligation was made, you know, to
6 pay for this, then our agency -- agencies can choose --
7 state agencies can choose to either ask the feds for
8 funding up front and then they have to worry about
9 expending it really fast or otherwise paying interest to
10 the feds because you are just hanging on to their money.
11 The Department of Education doesn't do that. We
12 always incur the expense first. And so it goes through as
13 a general fund expenditure, and then weekly we make
14 requests for reimbursement from the feds, and so this was
15 not a cash management issue.
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: And, committee,
17 Superintendent Hill didn't provide Exhibit 8. Mr. Jarosh
18 provided me that, and I provided it to the committee just
19 so that I could save time and get you all fully informed on
20 things.
21 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Are you aware of federal
22 laws that might have prevented this prepayment of services?
23 A. Nope.
24 Q. Will you alert the auditors that Mr. Carroll
25 referenced of these potential violations of federal law?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 684
1 A. There's no violation.
2 Q. This most recent audit involved what period?
3 A. It involved -- it involved -- let me see. So it
4 would end last July. So far behind, I apologize. So it
5 was -- it would end at the end of June of '13. So it was
6 July of '12 through June of '13.
7 Q. Who was the head of the WDE during this audit
8 period?
9 A. Who was the head of it?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Cindy until -- until January, I think, and then
12 after that it was Jim Rose.
13 Q. Would Superintendent Hill and her staff have been
14 involved in the exit conference with the auditors?
15 A. They could be. If she'd like to be invited, I'd
16 be happy to invite her.
17 Q. Do you know if the State can appeal the results
18 of an A-133 audit to the Office of the Inspector General or
19 any other federal agency or commission?
20 A. There's a period where we can make it's called a
21 corrective action plan. There's a short period where I've
22 negotiated with -- if I disagree with an audit concern or
23 an audit finding that I give additional information, but
24 they have the last word, and then there's a period where
25 you have to have a corrective action plan and a date that
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 685
1 you will take that corrective action by.
2 Q. Isn't it true that you approached Superintendent
3 Hill regarding returning to work at the WDE at one time?
4 A. That's true.
5 Q. When was this?
6 A. I'm thinking in -- let's see. She left in
7 January. It might have been the fall of '12. Yeah.
8 Q. Why did you want to return?
9 A. Okay. I hate to say negative things about
10 people. You'd never know it from my testimony. But the
11 director at that time at the School Facilities Department
12 was -- it was just a real hostile work environment, and all
13 the employees were upset, and it probably -- I don't know
14 if it was a good decision on my part or not, but I just
15 thought at that time that because of my working
16 relationship with a lot of people, you know, at the WDE
17 were still there, that I would be willing to come back to
18 that agency.
19 Q. Isn't it true that you expressed a desire to
20 return to a position earning the same six-figure salary you
21 earned when you left the WDE?
22 A. I don't think I talked about it. She asked me
23 how much I made, and then later Christine Steele e-mailed
24 me and said that they had a position, you know, that was
25 open, and it was not the same salary level, and I said I
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 686
1 didn't want to do that for my career, yeah.
2 Q. Isn't it true that Superintendent Hill stated
3 that she hoped you would apply for positions as they would
4 become available?
5 A. She did.
6 Q. Were you upset that Superintendent Hill did not
7 have an acceptable job for you at the time?
8 A. No. I understood.
9 Q. Now are you working at the W -- now you are
10 working at the WDE again; is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Are you making the same or more money you were
13 before you left?
14 A. Before I left?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. I'm making the same as I was when I worked at the
17 School Facilities Department. No more.
18 Q. Isn't it true that Fred Hansen was forced out of
19 the WDE so that funds could be freed up to bring you back
20 to WDE?
21 A. No.
22 Q. In June of 2011 during a line open review of the
23 WDE budget Superintendent Hill made it clear that the WDE
24 would not be taking ARRA funds. Do you recall this?
25 A. I'm sorry, I don't know.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 687
1 Q. Do you remember that you and Laurel Ballard
2 suggested the superintendent take $10 million and that the
3 ARRA funds be expended?
4 A. I do. We did a presentation for Superintendent
5 Hill and her leadership team about the $10 million and the
6 State Fiscal Stabilization Fund that was left over. The
7 majority of it went to -- even though it flowed through the
8 Department of Education, it went to State Lands, and they
9 managed that, but there was a $10 million amount that was
10 left.
11 And I had talked to Laurel. She was the division
12 administrator for data, and she had a lot of costs just
13 like this Choice Solutions that was coming up and all
14 having to do with flowing all that ARRA funding and all the
15 other funding data to the feds and thought it would be an
16 appropriate expense for those if we could. We did say that
17 we would have to apply to the feds and make sure that it
18 fit the correct funding and everything, and so...
19 Q. Do you remember that the Governor's Office wanted
20 Superintendent -- let me -- do you remember that the
21 Governor's Office wanted Superintendent Hill wanted to take
22 the 10 million in ARRA funds? I think it's do you remember
23 that the Governor's Office wanted Superintendent Hill to
24 take the 10 million in ARRA funds?
25 A. I don't have any knowledge of the discussion
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 688
1 between Cindy and the governor, sorry.
2 Q. You used ARRA funds for the periscope contract,
3 which is the system 1512 reporting; is that correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. By what authority did you make the determination
6 to use those funds?
7 A. The OCIO at that time -- oh, to use the funds?
8 There was administrative funds in one of the ARRA funds,
9 and I can't remember which it was, but that's been reported
10 on the 1512 and approved by the feds, so...
11 Q. Which is the next question. Did you have federal
12 approval to use the ARRA funds in this fashion?
13 A. Yes.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Miss Bailey, that's all
15 the questions I have of you or we have of you. Thank you
16 for coming and spending the day with us, and we appreciate
17 it.
18 And any objections, committee, to releasing
19 Miss Bailey from her subpoena and Mr. Hansen and --
20 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Mr. Carroll.
21 SPEAKER LUBNAU: -- Mr. Carroll? And
22 absent any objections, they will all be released from their
23 subpoenas.
24 Now, committee, I need to know what your pleasure
25 is. We have Karen Kelley, Roger Clark, Bill Pannell, Teri
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 689
1 Wigert and Superintendent Hill left. Counsel would like to
2 go up to -- I'm missing one. I'm missing Angela Benner,
3 yeah. Counsel would like to go up to and through
4 Miss Wigert tonight. If I sense that the committee is
5 getting tired, we're stopping. You know, I made those
6 calls with the majority floor leader. We can't do quality
7 work when we're tired. We'll just stop and start again
8 tomorrow unless somebody else has some objection.
9 Frankly, I think that we went too long last night
10 and that some of our deliberations got a little sloppy, and
11 I do know that my decorum became a little sloppy, and I had
12 to apologize to some of the representatives at this table
13 for being a little direct and perhaps a little rude, and
14 I'm sorry about that. Sometimes when I intend to protect
15 witnesses from being hurt and I get a little -- I get my
16 daddy voice on, and I apologize for that.
17 So the question is it's now five o'clock. I'm
18 sure that Eric needs a break. But Kathy is coming so he
19 may get a whole night break. Kathy is here. Okay. We
20 also have made arrangements now through the courtesy fund,
21 not the LSO committee fund, so we're paying for it
22 ourselves for food. I need to know if you want to order
23 food and what, if any, food you want to order or do you
24 want me to just make an executive decision and I'll
25 surprise you, which can be frightening?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 690
1 REPRESENTATIVEDAVISON: Ifit'sright.
2 REPRESENTATIVEGREEAR: Let'sgetbusyand
3 get through some witnesses.
4 SPEAKERLUBNAU: I'llmakeadecisionand
5 you'll get what you get and you'll pay for it anyway. So
6 let's take a ten-minute break so that we can switch out
7 court reporters, and we will start with Karen Kelley at
8 5:15. And the order will be Karen Kelley, Roger Clark,
9 Bill Pannell and Teri Wigert if we can make it that far.
10 We're off the record.
11 (Hearingproceedingsrecessed
12 5:05p.m.,January7,2014.)
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 691
1 CERTIFICATE
2
3 I, ERIC D. NORDBERG, a Registered Professional
4 Reporter, do hereby certify that I reported by machine
5 shorthand the foregoing proceedings contained herein,
6 constituting a full, true and correct transcript.
7 Datedthis13thdayofJanuary,2014.
8
9
10 ERICD.NORDBERG 11 RegisteredProfessionalReporter
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826