Vol. 725 Monday No. 115 28 February 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Independent Commission on Banking Prisons and Young Offender Institutions: Education and Training Child Trust Fund Local Government: Big Society Public Bodies Bill [HL] Committee (7th Day) Libya and the Middle East Statement Public Bodies Bill [HL] Committee (7th Day) (Continued) Israel Question for Short Debate Public Bodies Bill [HL] Committee (7th Day) (Continued)

Grand Committee National Insurance Contributions Bill Committee

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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Kramer, and the speech of Sir John Vickers the other House of Lords day very much echoed the identification of those problems. I hope that we can get international agreement Monday, 28 February 2011. but does my noble friend agree that it is important to 2.30 pm do the right thing even if we cannot get that agreement? Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Liverpool. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I certainly agree with my noble friend. He has been thinking about these things for many years and I very much value his thoughts on Independent Commission on Banking them. I absolutely agree that the UK wants to do the Question right thing, but the remit that the commission has been given also reflects the international and global 2.36 pm contexts, of which we have to be mindful. I wait with Asked By Baroness Kramer interest to see what the commission says and repeat that I do not want in any way to prejudge its thinking. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the progress of the Independent Lord Eatwell: My Lords, the Statement that the Commission on Banking. Chancellor of the Exchequer made on bankers’ bonuses contained a peculiar sentence about the Independent The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Commission on Banking. It said: Sassoon): My Lords, the Government set up the “I should make it very clear that nothing that I will say today Independent Commission on Banking to consider reforms about the settlement that we have reached with Britain’s banks … to the banking sector. We welcome the progress that in any way prejudges the outcome of the commission”.—[Official the commission has made and look forward to receiving Report, Commons, 9/2/2011; col.310.] its report in September. What was peculiar about this sentence was that he was answering a question that nobody had asked. Will the Baroness Kramer: Does my noble friend agree that noble Lord confirm that in recent weeks there have strengthened regulation supervision and stronger capital been threats of resignation from the commission if its requirements are welcome but that neither of them remit is in any way constrained? deals with the underlying structural problems of “too big to fail” or “too interconnected to fail”? Will he Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am attacked one week commit the Government to act on any recommendations for not answering questions that have been asked, and from the ICB for reform in this area, even if it means now my right honourable friend is being queried as to splitting the banks or ring-fencing activities with functional why he answers questions that he has not been asked. subsidiarity? He wanted to make it absolutely clear, which he did in the Statement on Project Merlin, that nothing there Lord Sassoon: I certainly agree with my noble friend pre-empted or in any way cut across the independent that there were two areas that the Government needed remit of the banking commission. I think the position to address urgently resulting from the failure of the remains clear. previous system of regulation and the over-leveraging of our banks. The first one on which we have brought Lord Newby: My Lords, does the Minister agree forward proposals is the system of regulation, although that one of the issues that the Vickers Commission is I completely agree with my noble friend that that is looking at is how to reduce risk within the banking not sufficient, which is why we set up the independent sector and risk taken by individual institutions? In commission to look into the structure of banking. I light of that, do the Government support the decision am certainly not going to pre-empt either the conclusions by Northern Rock to increase the proportion of loan- that it comes to in its final report or the Government’s to-value on mortgages to 90 per cent, which many response, but I am greatly encouraged by the papers people see as the first step towards a return to the bad that it put out and by the recent lecture by Sir John old days? Vickers, which indicate that the commission is tackling all the major issues and stimulating a vigorous debate. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that risk and the stability of the system go the Lord Myners: My Lords, in light of the agreement heart of the remit of the commission. However, the on Project Merlin, do the Government now regard individual product sets which are offered by individual bank bonus practices and numbers as acceptable? banks is at the moment a matter for the Financial Services Authority, and I am sure that it will be taking Lord Sassoon: My Lords, this afternoon we are its responsibilities very seriously in relation to the talking about the Independent Commission on Banking. business models and products of all the banks it Questions of pay structures have not been set by the regulates. Government as part of the commission’s remit and it is sticking to a series of other questions. Lord Barnett: My Lords, whatever the final recommendations of the commission, what work has Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, I congratulate the Treasury done with regards to splitting? Would it the Government on having set up this independent be helpful to the certain sale of our shareholdings? If commission, which must produce the right result. I it turns out to be bad, will the Minister be acting, as agree with the remarks of my noble friend Lady the noble Baroness asked, on a potential splitting? 791 Independent Commission on Banking[LORDS] Prisons and Young Offender Institutions 792

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, there are a lot of hypothetical Baroness Sharples: How many prisons have writers questions bound up in this. We will not see what in residence? the commission is proposing until September and then it will be up to the Government, in light of all the Lord McNally: I am afraid that that is not in my circumstances, to decide what to do with its briefing but I will write to the noble Baroness and put recommendations. I can confirm that the separation the information in the Library. It is important to of retail and investment banking is one item which engage prisoners of all ages into the concept of learning, goes to the heart of the remit of the commission. and I am sure that a writer in residence will be a spur to that end. Lord Tomlinson: As the noble Lord has now had plenty of time to reflect on the question that he was Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, considering asked by my noble friend Lord Eatwell, will he now, as the sizeable percentage of prisoners with mental illness, there seems to be plenty of time, get around to answering can the Minister tell us what the Government propose it? to provide the necessary education and training to meet the unique and challenging needs of this population? Lord Sassoon: I see the clock is advancing because of the length of that question. I gave the answer I Lord McNally: My Lords, I hate to keep saying wanted to give. “Shortly a paper will be published”, but the Department for Education is about to publish a Green Paper on Lord Campbell-Savours: Are not 90 per cent mortgages special education needs, which will look again at the dangerous in conditions where the property market special education needs of prisoners. One of the things might decline by 20 per cent? pointed out in the Green Paper published by the MoJ—it is still open for consultation for another four Lord Sassoon: My Lords, it is up to the banks to days—is that far too many prisoners have undetected decide what products they offer. They have to do that mental problems. We are making every effort to ensure within a set of rules that are set down by the regulators. that opportunities and facilities are in place to detect It is not for me to comment on either the business and help to treat those problems. model of an individual bank or the regulation and supervision of the regulators on this point. Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: My Lords, going back to the noble Lord’s answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharples, can he confirm that the Government Prisons and Young Offender Institutions: value the broad educational opportunities created by Education and Training the use of the arts—including the performing arts—in Question prisons? Will he also confirm that the Government will not fall victim to the strident voices telling us that 2.44 pm that kind of opportunity in prison is going soft on prison life? Asked By Lord Sheldon To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Lord McNally: I absolutely agree with the noble arrangements are in place to provide education and Baroness. Often our media like to leap on an initiative training for those in prisons and young offender and present it in a way that, as she says, suggests it is institutions. soft on prison. The whole rehabilitation strategy tries to break into the ludicrous situation of people going The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord through the prison system and reoffending shortly McNally): My Lords, the Government believe strongly after being released. If we can find ways of engaging in giving offenders the skills and training they need to them in cultural interests by providing education, we get and keep jobs. That reduces their likelihood of will save public money and avoid further crime. That is reoffending and is of clear benefit to society. A review plain common sense. into the efficiency and effectiveness of offender learning led jointly by DBIS and the MoJ is nearing completion Lord Dholakia: My Lords, education and training and will report shortly. has a direct impact on the rehabilitation of offenders, so will my noble friend ensure that this part of his Lord Sheldon: My Lords, I look forward to that department’s budget is ring-fenced? Will he also look response in due course. Is it not clear that education at the possibility that, any time non-custodial sentencing and training can reduce prison overcrowding, and that options are considered, training will form an essential those who have not had proper education and training part of that programme? are three times more likely to be convicted? The overcrowding in prisons limits valuable education and Lord McNally: I am reluctant, particularly with a training, so what action will be taken to reduce that Treasury Minister at my shoulder, to make commitments overcrowding? on ring-fencing of any budget, but the kind of campaign that my noble friend has led and with which he has Lord McNally: The noble Lord will know that it is been associated on the rehabilitation of offenders is our intention to try to bring down the prison population very much in our minds. There is illiteracy, innumeracy in the next few years, partly by following his line of and a lack of various other aspects of education and argument: that if there is a proper rehabilitation strategy training among prisoners, so it is a no-brainer to see for prisoners, they are likely not to reoffend, which that if we can break into that we can also break into will take the pressure off the prison population. the circle of crime. 793 Prisons and Young Offender Institutions[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Child Trust Fund 794

Baroness Trumpington: The Minister has just talked on to independent living they have money for a deposit about illiteracy. Does he agree that it is very difficult to on a flat or a car to assist them? Does he not further get a job when you leave prison and you cannot read agree that we should ensure that children leaving care and write? Can he explain why the farms and gardens have a capital asset to put down for a car or to buy a are closed? They provide very suitable work for people new suit to get a job? Does he recall the strength of who may have a great love for that kind of work but feeling around the House at Second Reading about who cannot read and write. the need for these young people to have such a capital asset? Given that, will he understand and consider the Lord McNally: Across the Prison Service we are need to put on a statutory basis the funds that he has trying to identify opportunities for people to be trained. described, so that children can be assured of a capital As the noble Baroness says, for somebody who lacks asset as they leave care? literacy—although I hope we address that in our programmes—gardening and similar park activity may Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I very much appreciate quite often provide rewarding and worthwhile that the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, keeps these important employment. issues under discussion and alive in our thinking. It is important for all children to understand how to handle Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, does the Minister money, to be able to make the decisions that they need recollect that the prison rules still express the reformation to start making as soon as they leave school and move of the prisoner as the main purpose of incarceration, on. This is not just a matter of amounts of money that and that adequate educational and training services are put aside, but of making sure that the mechanisms are central to that very concept? are there for all children to learn how to handle their finances as they progress through life. Lord McNally: Again, I could not agree more. Of As to the question of a statutory basis, as and when course punishment is an aspect of prison, as is protection we come up with the detailed plans for the junior ISA, of the public from dangerous prisoners. However, as I of course draft regulations will be issued for comment. mentioned, with issues such as homelessness, dysfunctional I cannot confirm that there will be special provision families, lack of education and lack of a job when other than in the terms that I mentioned whereby leaving prison, if you can intervene while people are in accounts can be set up for children in care to which prison and prepare them for life outside with a proper local authorities and others can contribute. policy on the rehabilitation of offenders, then you break into the cycle of crime, lower the numbers in prison and make it a win-win situation for the public Lord Soley: Does the Minister accept that one and the taxpayer. reason for having the child trust fund was to encourage the culture of saving? It affects not just children in care but children from families which are poor or Child Trust Fund where the parents are not that competent, and who Question may leave school without any savings or culture of savings. Will the Minister get all the Ministers who are 2.52 pm dealing with this to think how much money they have given to their own children to make sure that they Asked By The Earl of Listowel survive in future life, and then to ask themselves how a To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans child coming from such a background as described is they have to replace the child trust fund, abolished expected to survive without the help of the child trust in the Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy fund or the savings culture that it inspired? Grant Act 2010, for children in the care of local authorities. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, very difficult choices have to be made at a time when we have been left with the The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord biggest deficit in our peacetime history. Sassoon): My Lords, the Government announced in October that we will create a new tax-free children’s Noble Lords: Oh! savings account, which is likely to be known as a junior ISA. We expect the new accounts to be available later this year. It will be possible for local authorities Lord Sassoon: Noble Lords opposite may groan to open junior ISA accounts for eligible children in and make all sorts of noises, but those are the facts of their care. We are also exploring the possibility of the situation. Regrettably, the child trust fund cost facilitating a voluntary scheme for financial institutions £500 million in a full year, and it is one of those things and the third sector to contribute to the junior ISAs of that we as a nation simply cannot, in these difficult children in care. times, afford. There are indeed questions about the efficacy of the scheme, but even on the assumption The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I thank the Minister that it was doing all that it set out to do, that is a very for his reply and indeed, the meeting with Mark large sum which unfortunately the nation cannot afford. Hoban, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and Tim Loughton, the Minister for children, to discuss Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, while welcoming this matter. Does the Minister agree that for our own what the Minister has said about the junior ISA, I children we would seek wherever possible to ensure encourage him to go just a little further in relation to that they have a capital asset so that when they move looked-after children. It strikes me that there is an 795 Child Trust Fund[LORDS] Local Government: Big Society 796

[BARONESS WALMSLEY] Lord Dubs: Does the Minister agree that many opportunity here for philanthropists, charities and the people find it difficult to understand how the whole third sector, as well as local authorities, to put money idea of a big society can survive the many devastating into savings accounts for looked-after children. Will cuts that are taking place particularly in the most the Government consider developing a scheme to disadvantaged areas of our country? Can the Minister encourage that sort of big society giving? explain how voluntary organisations, many of which are now under threat and might not be able to survive, Lord Sassoon: I am grateful to my noble friend, can provide the services to the poor, to young people because we are working on that. We have been talking, and to the mentally ill when their money is being cut for example, to potential junior ISA providers. They from under their feet? It is not a tenable way of have been showing some interest, I am pleased to say, approaching the big society and it will not work. in contributing to a scheme in that way. We need to continue to work on that, but if any financial institutions, Baroness Hanham: My Lords, as I made clear in my charities or other groups are interested in being part of original reply, local authorities are now almost entirely that, we would be very pleased to discuss it with them. responsible for the money that they receive from Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords— government. They are responsible for their budgets and, therefore, have their choices to make. However, it Baroness Sherlock: My Lords— seems to me to be an inescapable fact that local authorities ought to continue to support the voluntary Noble Lords: Cross-Bench. sector because, as the noble Lord said, it provides great support for the work that they do. It is also part Lord Low of Dalston: The Minister will be aware of of the Government’s policy under the Localism Bill, local authorities’ inconsistent fulfilment of their duties which we will be discussing quite soon, that the voluntary under the Children (Leaving Care) Act and the sector should have a large part to play in managing inconsistent provision, particularly as regards and directing the services that are in local authority accommodation, made for children and young people control. leaving care. What will the Government now do to make good the deficiency in provision for that particularly Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: A number of local vulnerable group, whose vulnerability is at its greatest authorities now appear to be making disproportionate at the point of leaving local authority care? cuts in the grants to charities and voluntary groups. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, we are straying a bit from Why they are doing that is not clear. Is there not a the Question and from my area of responsibility, but I reason for local authorities to consult with charities appreciate that difficult issues are involved with those and voluntary groups to ensure that the right long-term who are leaving care, which is why additional funding solutions are arrived at to provide services for the in the “children in care”line of the new local government communities that they look after at a time when we formula is there to encourage local authorities to use have perfectly appalling economic circumstances inherited the staying-put models of practice. From April 2011, from the last Labour Government? we will be implementing provision in the Children and Young Persons Act 2008 that allows young people to Baroness Hanham: I thank my noble friend. The resume entitlements to leaving care support up to the Government’s whole purpose is to pass responsibility age of 25, where they take up education or training. and money from central to local government. Therefore, on the decisions that they have to make, they will Local Government: Big Society consult with those who they will be using or who are co-operating with them. The whole question of a Question voluntary sector is the purpose of these questions today. The voluntary sector remains an extremely 2.59 pm important provider not only of services but also of Asked By Lord Dubs support. I am sure that any local authority worth its To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment salt would recognise that. they have made of the effect of cuts in local government spending on their big society proposals. Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: Does the Minister The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, accept that the provision being made to charities by Department for Communities and Local Government local authorities falls short of the standards that we (Baroness Hanham): The challenge the country faces might reasonably expect? Can the Government do from the public finance mess left by the previous anything to regulate the process or do they simply Government means that local government has had to stand back and wash their hands of what is not part of take its share of the burden required to reduce the their brief or responsibility? deficit. Local authorities, however, now have control over virtually all of the grant that they receive from Baroness Hanham: The Government are not in the central government. Therefore, they have choices as to business of regulating local authorities on these matters. how they manage their budgets, the areas that they It is for local authorities themselves to come up with protect and the priorities that they set. The big society sensible and sustainable answers. Not every local authority is a wide concept of social action, community is finding itself in trouble. Many local authorities have empowerment and public service reform that is embedded recognised the value of the voluntary sector and are in localism. determined to continue to support it in all the ways 797 Local Government: Big Society[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 798 that they can. We should not be too disheartened by During the Second Reading debate, I made it clear all this because, as I say, there is a complete recognition to this House that I intended to engage in an open that the voluntary sector is of great value. dialogue with noble Lords throughout the Bill’s passage. I feel confident in saying that I have to date delivered The Lord Bishop of Liverpool: Is the Minister aware on that promise. Since the last day in Committee, that there are those who believe in the big society 11 January—which seems a very long time ago, and I concept and who also understand the need for fiscal am sure that noble Lords have shared my withdrawal responsibility, but who nevertheless believe that there symptoms—I hope the time has not been wasted. is an unevenness in the distribution of finances across Indeed, it has been well used. The Minister for the the country and in particular the financial settlement Cabinet Office, my right honourable friend Mr Francis with local authorities? Will the Minister be prepared Maude, ministerial colleagues in this House and I have to look again at the financial settlement to ensure that participated in a number of meetings with Peers from there is a fair and just treatment of local authorities all sides of the House seeking constructive and right across the country? proportionate solutions to concerns regarding this Baroness Hanham: My Lords, we are not really on Bill. Such discussions are a crucial part of the work of the subject of local government spending at the moment. this House, and I have no doubt that they will continue. We have had several discussions on the finance settlement. I pay tribute to the positive spirit in which noble All I can say is that that finance settlement was Lords, including those on the opposition Benches, demonstrated against a formula, the relative-needs have looked to work with the Government to achieve weighting was increased so that money followed our shared objectives. As a result of this work, the socioeconomic indicators. Banded floors were put in Government have today laid a number of significant place so that the most dependent authorities got the amendments to the Bill. I hope it will be helpful to the smallest cuts and social service authorities and shire House if I briefly describe their effects as they are district councils were grouped together in four bands relevant to the debates that we shall be having over the reflecting their relative reliance on central government coming weeks. grant. The right reverend Prelate’s view would suggest First, I am happy to inform the House that the that the Government have not taken the greatest possible Government continue to engage in constructive discussions care with the local government finance settlement in with my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill and these very difficult circumstances, and that is not the my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern situation. on the safeguards that should apply to orders made under the Bill, particularly in relation to Amendment 175, Lord Beecham: My Lords, is the Minister aware which has been tabled by my noble friend Lord Lester that her right honourable friend the Minister for of Herne Hill. We intend to reach a solution that will Decentralisation, in an article in the Local Government offer further protection for the necessary independent Chronicle last week, rightly called on local authorities exercise of public functions, including judicial functions, considering cuts on the voluntary sector to discuss and we will require that orders made using the powers those matters? Which voluntary organisations did the in this Bill are proportionate in their effects. The noble Government consult when they abolished the working Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, and the noble and neighbourhoods fund, reduced the area-based grant learned Lord, Lord Mackay, are working closely with and made massive cuts in local government funding the Government to inform this approach, and I thank that are inevitably going to impact on those very them for the rigorous and helpful analysis that they organisations? have brought to bear on this process. Baroness Hanham: My Lords, the working I wish to address the overall structure and purpose neighbourhoods fund was not going to continue. of the Bill, with particular reference to Schedule 7. Under the noble Lord’s Government, it was due to Noble Lords will be well aware that the Government’s finish at the end of three years. The three years would policy is that all public bodies should be subject to have been up in this financial year, so I do not think regular review to ensure that their functions are still that the accusation of getting rid of the working required and are delivered in the most effective and neighbourhoods fund can be levelled against this efficient manner. This is a goal to which the Government Government. Decisions have had to be made against remain committed and one which I am sure will continue the serious financial situation. There have been to receive support from all sides of the House. consultations with the voluntary sector during the Schedule 7—and the corresponding power to move course of these decisions. It has made its representations bodies between schedules, as described in Clause 11—was and has been listened to. designed as a pragmatic mechanism to facilitate this goal by creating a means by which changes to public Public Bodies Bill [HL] bodies could be made following future reviews without Committee (7th Day) recourse to further extensive primary legislation. The Government absolutely recognise that some 3.06 pm public functions need to be carried out independently Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, before I beg to of Ministers. Schedule 7 was never intended to hinder move that the House do now again resolve itself into a or threaten that independence. However, it has become Committee upon the Bill, I should like to beg your clear during the passage of this Bill to date that this Lordships’ indulgence by taking a few minutes to House is uncomfortable with the nature of Schedule 7. update the House on the work that has taken place As many noble Lords, including members of the Delegated since the Committee last met to improve this Bill. Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and the 799 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 800

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] Progress on this Bill to date has not always been Constitution Committee, have made clear, it is a feeling smooth. It has certainly been drawn out longer than I that is strongly held by much of this House that had hoped. However, I take comfort in the knowledge Schedule 7 represents a significant delegation of power that the expert scrutiny of this House has improved to Ministers and has the potential to hinder the and will continue to improve the Bill. Again, I thank independent delivery of public functions. all noble Lords who contributed to this process. In Noble Lords will, I hope, forgive me for maintaining tabling the significant amendments that I described a more positive interpretation of the Government’s today and following our existing amendments to introduce intentions. None the less, I have listened with great both a statutory period on consultation and the option care to the voice of this House and have taken its for Parliament to select an enhanced affirmative procedure, concerns to my colleagues in government. Indeed, the the Government have demonstrated their commitment Minister for the Cabinet Office has met a number of to engage with and respond to your Lordships’ House. noble Lords, who have taken the opportunity to put I hope, following these amendments, that we will be these points to him in person. Consequently, I can able to make progress on the Bill with a renewed sense confirm to the House that the Government have accepted of shared purpose and in the constructive spirit that the arguments that bodies and offices should be listed characterises this House at its best. I beg to move. in the schedules of this Bill only where Parliament has given its consent in primary legislation. On this basis, 3.15 pm we intend that Schedule 7 and Clause 11 be removed Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am grateful from the Bill. I am therefore adding my name to to the noble Lord for the statement that he made. existing amendments opposing the Question that the Naturally, I warmly welcome the radical changes that relevant clauses of the Bill stand part. he proposes, especially in relation to Clause 11, Schedule 7 In this context, I should also inform the House that and Clauses 17 and 18. I am also grateful for his it will be necessary as a result of the removal of willingness to engage in open dialogue and to make Schedule 7 to introduce a small number of amendments changes. That is this House working at its best and I that move bodies currently listed in Schedule 7 to one am pleased that it is working in this way. or more of the remaining schedules. These changes I also recognise that with a new Government, especially shall ensure that all reforms announced as part of last a coalition Government, who came to power having year’s review of public bodies can be implemented. been elected on two different manifestos, it is difficult These amendments will be made at a later stage in the immediately to produce quality Bills. However, the Bill’s passage, but I hope that the House will be paucity of this particular Bill was extraordinary, as assured by the fact that these moves, and the reforms was widely recognised by the Constitution Committee, to which they relate, will be scrutinised in primary the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee legislation. and the House of Commons Public Administration I will now reassure those of your Lordships’ House Committee, all of which produced devastating critiques who have concerns about whether the provisions in the of the Bill. It was an unnecessarily rushed Bill and it is Bill on the transfer of functions could be used in a way clear that the proposals were not properly thought that could undermine the independence of charities. I through and that there was no proper consultation. It make it absolutely clear that the Government have not is thanks to the time that we took to scrutinise the considered, nor would they ever consider, using the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill Bill to transfer functions to charities without their that this Bill has been recast, just as we suggested it consent or make consequential changes to their should have been in the first place. constitutions without such consent. We continue to In the mean time, those bodies that were listed work with charities to ensure that that reassurance is under Schedule 7 and their employees have suffered, made as explicit as possible. The reform of public as have the communities living in and around the bodies will ultimately help to empower rather than forests and woodlands of our country. But I am grateful undermine the role of charities and the independence to the noble Lord and I hope that the Government will on which they rely. have learnt lessons from this Bill and will ensure that, in future, consultations and White Papers come before Finally, I refer briefly to the clauses in the Bill that legislation in the tried and tested manner. relate to forestry. As noble Lords will be aware, my We continue to have concerns about the process right honourable friend the Secretary of State for and we will be looking to the Government to make Environment, Food and Rural Affairs made a Statement further changes in respect of the super-affirmative in the other place on 17 February, setting out the procedure. We will also be looking for amendments Government’s intention to end the consultation on in relation to the sunsetting of certain aspects of the the future of the public forest estate and to remove the Bill. Today we will discuss forests, RDAs and the UK relevant clauses from the Bill. Film Council. Thanks to the U-turn on forests—our My noble friend Lord Henley will set out the forests seem to be secure at the moment and we are Government’s revised approach on this issue in greater grateful for that—I hope that the Government will detail later today. However, I can confirm that I have reconsider their proposals on RDAs and the UK Film added my name to amendments to remove the relevant Council. We will all want to celebrate today the brilliant clauses and schedule entries to the Bill, including the British success at the Oscars last night with “The regional advisory committees established under King’s Speech”. We are all terribly proud of that. Section 37(1)(b) of the Forestry Act 1967, which is I look forward to our debates later on today on these listed in Schedule 1. issues. 801 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 802

Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, I add my Lord Warner: My Lords, in this new mood of thanks to my noble friend Lord Taylor for the dedicated enthusiasm for constructive scrutiny, I rise to speak to way in which he has applied himself to considering the the amendment standing in my name and in the names criticisms of the Bill that were made during the earlier of my noble friends which would remove NESTA stages of debate. I congratulate him on the generous from Schedule 1. My purpose in tabling this amendment way in which he has involved Members not only of the is to find out why the Government thought it necessary coalition but of the Opposition in the dialogue, which to convert NESTA from an NDPB to a charity, and to has unquestionably moved towards much more coherent understand the processes by which they will do this and democratic procedures for winding up bodies and at the same time safeguard public money and the which are past their sell-by date. This has exemplified remit given to NESTA by Parliament. the maxim of John Stuart Mill that the best government NESTA was set up in 1998 with a statutory remit to is government by discussion. I strongly welcome the support and promote talent, innovation and creativity approach and hope that it will continue until the Bill is in the fields of science, technology and the arts. It does enacted. this by leveraging private capital into the next generation of innovative, entrepreneurial businesses, running cutting Lord Goodhart: My Lords, I am extremely grateful edge experimental programmes to test new ways in to my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach for which to solve big challenges of the future, and building informing us of the removal of Schedule 7 and Clause 11. an evidence base that provides policy options to promote I was seriously concerned about this matter because I innovation. Its work has focused on innovation for was until the general election the chairman of the economic growth, cheaper public services, and in the Delegated Powers Committee, and I think I am its creative industries. All these seem to be areas where only surviving former chairman. As it was drafted, the the UK economy needs all the help that it can get. Bill gave power in Schedule 7 and Clause 11 for the Government to do all sorts of things whenever they NESTA has done many good things, and I am a decided to do so. It was entirely uncertain, and whenever supporter of it. In this connection, I declare my interest I looked at it I saw in my mind the quotation from as chairman of the Health Innovation Committee for King Lear: the YoungFoundation, which benefits from the generous “I will do such things, what they are yet I know not, but they support of NESTA. However, it is not self-evident to shall be the terrors of the earth”. me that most of NESTA’s work is in pursuit of a What is now proposed is broadly within the standards charitable purpose, as defined in the current Charities recognised by your Lordships’ House for delegated Act. What discussions have the Government had with powers and I am very pleased that this difficulty is the Charity Commission to confirm that the work of over. It will cut a very substantial amount of time NESTA would be accepted as a charitable purpose, from what we would have expected. and when did they take place? I am assuming that there will be no significant change of functions, or do Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, the Minister the Government have other plans? Will the Minister was kind enough to refer to the noble and learned also tell the House what discussions there were with Lord, Lord Mackay, and myself. The noble and learned the board of NESTA about converting it into a charity Lord, Lord Mackay, is sorry that he cannot be here before Francis Maude made his announcement on today, but I explained to him what I would like now to 14 October? Was the board enthusiastic about the say. We are delighted that over the past seven weeks idea, or did it have problems about being an NDPB, discussions have continued with members of the Civil which interfered with the discharge of the role given to Service, the Cabinet Office, and so on, on what to do it by Parliament in 1998? What other options or about Amendment 175. My noble friend Lord McNally, alternatives to an NDPB or a charity have been considered who is even more optimistic than I am, said seven by the Government? weeks ago that he hoped and believed that we would Alongside those questions, there are some important be able to come to a satisfactory arrangement on issues relating to the substantial sum of public money Amendment 175, and I share his hope still. It is that would be transferred into a charitable body if the extremely important that this is settled by the next day Government turned NESTA into a charity. NESTA is this Bill is in Committee, because it goes to the architecture funded by an endowment from the National Lottery, of the Bill. Although we are debating details today, the which has grown from the original £200 million and House will need to be quite sure that the safeguards in now stands at well over £300 million. Along the way, Amendment 175, or something very close to them, are the National Lottery has given it repayable loans and in place before the Bill leaves Committee. Otherwise, revenue allocations. NESTA does its work through the we will be in the position of someone trying to cross a allocations, loans and the investment income from its river and not knowing whether a stepping stone is endowment, without grant in aid from the Government. solid or slippery. How would NESTA’s funding work in future if it was Motion agreed. a charity? Would the current endowment be transferred in total to the charity, bearing in mind that charities Schedule 1: Power to abolish: bodies and offices can change their charitable purpose? Do the Government have any plans to cut NESTA’s endowment when its status changes? We need answers to these questions Amendment 44 before we include in a cavalier fashion a perfectly Moved by Lord Warner satisfactory body such as NESTA in Schedule 1 and 44: Schedule 1, page 17, line 8, leave out “National Endowment create unnecessary uncertainty about its future. I beg for Science, Technology and the Arts.” to move. 803 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 804

Lord Dubs: My Lords, I, too, am a supporter of and carries out some cutting-edge work with the creative what NESTA has done and of its very innovative work industries. Let me give your Lordships three examples. and enormously important initiatives. I looked with Its creative mentoring programme brings together new some puzzlement at the Government’s proposals and creative businesses with successful figures in the industry join my noble friend in asking some further questions to help them to grow. It has worked with the National to see whether we can be clear about what the Government Theatre to bring live theatre to more people through propose. My noble friend has already asked about the the power of digital distribution. It is also working status of discussions between the Government and the with our fashion industry to encourage the best UK Charity Commission on the future of NESTA. It is designers to work more closely with British high-tech not always easy setting up a charity, as—quite properly— manufacturers. certain conditions have to be met. How far have the NESTA is also recognised as one of the UK’s Government got with those discussions to be satisfied leading organisations producing world-class research, that charitable status is appropriate and proper and concentrating on exploring future areas of economic would be reasonably easy to achieve? growth. It has always enjoyed a greater level of Furthermore, I understand that in the new scheme independence than any other non-departmental public of things there is to be an individual called the “protector”, body because of its unique set-up. NESTA has an who will, presumably in addition to the Charity endowment from the National Lottery, as we have Commission, have supervisory responsibilities. What heard from the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and therefore will be the powers and responsibilities of the protector operates at no cost to the Exchequer. In this case, and how will they sit alongside the responsibilities of moving NESTA from the public to the third sector the Charity Commission? will, in principle, allow it to continue its vital work as Will the Minister further confirm that there is at an early-stage seed funder and to act as a test bed for present no burden on the taxpayer because of the innovative solutions to some of our greatest challenges endowments held by NESTA? Therefore, there will in the commercial creative sector. really be no change in public expenditure or public In terms of detail, it would be helpful if the Minister responsibilities if and when NESTA becomes a charity. could comment on the following points, which have In other words, there is clearly no financial benefit in also been raised by my noble friends Lord Warner and all this except possibly at the margin, where I am told Lord Dubs. What consultation have the Government that there might be some savings in not having to deal undertaken with the board and different interested with civil servants or something of that sort. I am not groups about the change? What process will the quite clear how that will work, so maybe the Minister Government use, as my noble friend Lord Dubs asked, could explain that. to select and appoint trustees? The Minister may also I have two further questions. If not all NESTA’s like to inform the House, in light of the Public current endowments are appropriate for charitable Administration Committee’s recent report on quangos, purposes, I therefore assume that not all the money why this body is one of the few bodies to have been will be transferred to the new charity. However, if it is singled out for charitable status. not transferred, where will it go? In other words, there are some functions of NESTA that are not totally Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I thank the charitable; clearly, these are now funded by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for introducing this amendment, endowments. What will happen to the money appropriate and the noble Lords, Lord Dubs and Lord Evans of to those non-charitable functions? Secondly, given Temple Guiting, for their contributions, which give me that there are trustees to be appointed to run a charity an opportunity to explain how the Government see if the proposal goes ahead, how will the trustees be the role of NESTA. It is government policy to reduce appointed? By what process will they be appointed the number of NDPBs and NESTA did not meet the and what will be the safeguards? Cabinet Office criteria for remaining an NDPB. However, NESTA and its activities are still considered highly 3.30 pm valuable to UK growth and innovation. The Government Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I rise to are clear that they want that work to continue. That speak briefly as a great admirer of NESTA, an view will be widely held throughout the House. organisation that works in an exciting and important We have no intention of winding down NESTA area of our society to create a viable commercial and its activities. Instead, the proposed reconstitution future for science, technology and the arts. NESTA’s of NESTA as a charity, with its £329 million endowment core objective is to combine capital investment with held in a separate charitable trust, will allow it to non-financial support to help innovative early-stage continue its valuable work. Far from halting its activities, companies to turn their ideas into commercial success. establishing NESTA as a charity preserves its ability These target companies, referred to as seed companies, to deliver its public benefit mission at no cost to the are vital for the cultural success and economic growth taxpayer. I confirm the analysis of the noble Lord, of this country. Without this assistance in the early Lord Dubs, that there is no question of saving the stages of development, these companies will be held taxpayer money in this matter, since the body is back from reaching their full potential. We should all independent of taxpayer funding. We can further distance be grateful to NESTA for its part in facilitating the it from government and enhance its independence by creative industries’ £50 billion annual contribution to making these changes. It will therefore cease to be the economy. classified as an NDPB and as part of the public sector. NESTA is a unique organisation with a world-class We have already worked closely with NESTA to develop reputation. It is the UK’s leading expert on innovation the detail of this reform. We will seek Charity Commission 805 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 806 approval for the proposed new model. This model of those purposes defined by Parliament have at their builds on that successfully used by the Millennium heart economic development. Before the next stage, so Awards Trust, which similarly derived much of its that we can be absolutely clear, I would like more funding from the National Lottery. We want to build assurance from the Minister, perhaps in writing, that on that model. there is not going to be a slip between cup and lip over Once NESTA becomes a private sector charity, the this that would damage NESTA and the work that it Government will no longer select or appoint the trustees. does. On the basis of an assurance in that area, I beg The separate charitable trust, which will be created to leave to withdraw my amendment. hold the endowment in the public sector, will have a protector. The intention is for the protector to be Amendment 44 withdrawn. appointed by Ministers and for NESTA the charity to be the trustee of the trust. The role and powers of the Amendment 45 not moved. protector are yet to be defined but they will be based on the Millennium Awards Trust model. This is a very Amendment 46 positive step that is being taken by the Government. We firmly believe that this model represents an opportunity Moved by Lord Faulkner of Worcester for NESTA to continue its success. However, we also 46: Schedule 1, page 17, line 10, leave out “Railway Heritage believe that NESTA’s current status as an NDPB is by Committee.” no means a prerequisite for it to continue to flourish. Establishing NESTA as a charity is part of the Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, I am very Government’s wider commitment to hand power to pleased to continue the mood of co-operation and the big society and not simply to rely on central friendliness between the various parts of the House in bureaucracy to control public life. The Government’s relation to my Amendment 46, which is supported by proposed model reflects this objective while safeguarding two of my noble friends and by the noble Lord, Lord the public interest in the large endowment managed by Inglewood, on the Benches opposite. NESTA. I start by expressing my appreciation to the Minister I have been asked by many noble Lords about the for his willingness to engage with me from Second nature of the discussions that we have had with the Reading when, having heard my speech, he realised Charity Commission. There was an initial discussion that what was initially proposed by the Government with the Charity Commission last December and there did not make a lot of sense, was causing a great deal of has been an exchange of correspondence since then. anxiety and needed to be put right. The way in which This is designed to ensure that the objects of NESTA he and indeed his noble friend, the noble Earl, Lord are charitable. BIS and NESTA itself have carried on Attlee, have engaged on this subject has been excellent, these discussions. They are positive and we are confident and I thank both of them very much. about their outcome. While there have been no public I am not going to argue for the continuation of the consultations, officials worked closely with NESTA’s Railway Heritage Committee as a non-departmental senior management team to develop the charitable public body. It has had that role for only about five option and NESTA consulted informally with its board years. Previously it had been a committee first under of trustees, which is supportive of the change in status. the wing of the British Railways Board at the time of NESTA also consulted several key stakeholders. Its privatisation and subsequently under the Strategic staff were informed on 14 October 2010, following the Rail Authority. Government’s announcement on public bodies reform. Since then NESTA has held regular meetings with When the SRA was abolished, it became an orphan. staff to inform them of the transitional process and I declare a past interest as its unpaid chairman at the provide the opportunity to address any questions or time. We thought that the Department for Transport concerns that they had. would provide a secure, long-term home for it. That optimism was misplaced, as the department originally In a statement released at the time of October’s intended to use this Bill to get rid of it altogether on announcement, NESTA’s chair, Sir John Chisholm, the grounds that railway heritage was not sufficiently said that the board welcomed the decision and described special to justify statutory protection. The signs are it as an extremely positive move for NESTA. The now that Ministers do not take that view, and I shall statement also contained endorsements from Sir James outline in a few words today how I hope we will be Dyson and from Sir Stuart Etherington, chief executive able to establish a new arrangement which the noble of the National Council for Voluntary Organisations. Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, will be able to accept Since then, NESTA has written to key stakeholders on behalf of the Government. and engaged with the public via its website and social media sites, giving details of the proposed transition What I shall propose achieves the Government’s and welcoming any questions regarding the change in two objectives behind the Bill, which were a long time status. In the light of these considerations, I hope that ago, as he said in his initial statement. The first objective the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment. is to reduce the number of non-departmental public bodies and the second is to save taxpayers money, while at the same time, with the Railway Heritage Lord Warner: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister Committee, preserving something that is really important. for his full explanation. I am still just a shade puzzled The RHC came into being as a direct consequence of as to what will happen if the Charity Commission the privatisation of the railways. When the railways does not accept that the purposes defined by Parliament were state-owned, obligations were imposed on the meet its requirements as to a charitable purpose. Many British Railways Board and its predecessor, the British 807 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 808

[LORD FAULKNER OF WORCESTER] The same applies to railway artefacts. The RHC Transport Commission, to ensure that what was significant has worked happily with the industry, whose members to the history of the railways was preserved. That was see it as a helpful partner that not only relieves them of a statutory obligation that was imposed on them. much of the burden of worrying about preservation However, given privatisation and the fragmentation of matters but complements their serious commitment to the industry, it was necessary to create a new statutory railway heritage. It is possible without statutory powers mechanism to ensure that the process was continued. to foresee circumstances whereby one difficult company Initially, provisions in the Railways Act 1993 covered could effectively spoil the arrangements for everyone heritage items and records owned by the British Railways else. Board, but it was quickly realised that these measures Such is the degree of support within the railway were not adequate for dealing with the new companies industry for the continuation of the RHC—or for its that had entered the industry. statutory powers—that when an extensive consultation The response to that was contained in a Private exercise was carried by the Department for Transport Member’s Bill, introduced in the other place by a in 2008-09 to gauge the degree of support for extending Conservative MP, Mr Mark Robinson, which achieved the scope of the RHC to take account of the changes total cross-party support in both Houses. I read the since 1996, there was virtually unanimous support for Hansard reports of those debates, and the arguments that proposition. Indeed, Transport for London specifically for statutory powers of designation and for the principle asked that London’s underground railways should come that our nation’s railway history is sufficiently special within the committee’s scope. Backing for the continuation to justify its legal protection were, and still are, compelling. of the RHC has come in the form of numerous letters Thereby, the Railway Heritage Act 1996 was passed, to the Minister for Railways and, I suspect, to the with the RHC operating initially under the auspices of noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach. the BRB. If the committee were to be abolished, there would be no statutory protection of records and artefacts 3.45 pm from now on, and future historians would find a void The way in which the system works is that the RHC where at present there is a complete and accessible identifies artefacts and archives that are sufficiently record. There would have to be a process of de-designation important to justify preservation and then, after careful covering more than 1,000 artefacts and countless records consideration, issues a designation order. Often the and drawings that have already been designated. This artefacts will still be in use on the working railway, and would have a totally disruptive effect on the modern the designation is simply to ensure that the artefacts railway industry and add significantly to the costs of are looked after and not destroyed. When they no the National Railway Museum, which would find longer have any operational use, the owner seeks itself bidding at auction for items that at present it permission from the RHC to dispose of them. This is receives free of charge from a co-operative and supportive granted on the basis that they go to a good home— railway company. perhaps the National Railway Museum, another There is a way through these difficulties, which I accredited museum, a heritage railway or, in a few have discussed with the Minister and his officials in cases, a private collection, with due accord given to the the Bill team. My proposition is that the RHC ceases requirements of the Scottish museums movement and to be a non-departmental public body in the Department the railways in Scotland. for Transport and that its functions and statutory As the railway industry has been fragmented, powers are administered by the National Railway designation has provided a structured way of identifying Museum on behalf of the National Museum of Science important artefacts and records, and it avoids the and Industry. I should advise the Committee that I political pressure that would otherwise come from was appointed a trustee of the NMSI by the Prime enthusiasts who are passionate to preserve a much Minister in January. The chairman of the NMSI board wider range of items, regardless of costs. With designation of trustees issued a totally supportive statement on there is a good process and good governance. Without 13 January saying that they were willing to take on this it the result would be confusion and frequent requests responsibility, and the noble Lord, Lord Waldegrave for government intervention. of North Hill, the previous chairman of the museum, It was originally thought that these arrangements sent me a message this morning to the effect that, could be made on the basis of voluntary agreements, although he cannot be here this afternoon, he fully but during the passage of the 1996 Act they were supports the proposals, which I have discussed with rightly rejected by Ministers as unworkable. I agree him and the NMSI. with them. It is interesting that as recently as 12 January, I look forward to hearing from the Minister that the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee the Government accept the solution that we have been of the Scottish Parliament, while considering the Public working on together and that they will start drawing Records (Scotland) Bill, heard evidence on behalf of up the necessary statutory instrument to implement a the Scottish Council on Archives. The keeper of the railway heritage scheme. When we first discussed this, records said that, the Minister told me that he thought this was in line “a voluntary scheme would be rather like new year’s resolutions: with the Government’s big society approach. That was we all start off with genuine enthusiasm and then gradually, as his phrase, not mine. It would indeed reduce the other things emerge, the enthusiasm wanes … We need a statutory number of NDPBs by one. It would save public money framework as a fall-back position. It is particularly important because we are not just talking about traditional paper records; because the National Railway Museum would provide myriad electronic records systems—if I can call them systems—are administration support, saving the employment costs emerging”. of the one member of staff who is currently involved 809 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 810 in running the RHC. It would also provide an opportunity declare an interest as chairman of the Design Council, for volunteers to continue to do what they already do an organisation that is enthusiastically seeking to shed very effectively. It is a sensible way forward and I NDPB status and become a charity. A degree of commend it to the Committee. I beg to move. frustration is already arising that this is not as easy as it appears on the face of it. If this frustration is being Lord Berkeley: My Lords, my name is attached to experienced by a number of similar organisations, it the amendment and I fully support what my noble would be helpful if this could be clarified as soon as friend has said about the concerns and needs of the possible. railway heritage sector. I congratulate him on the work that he has put in over many years to look after and Lord Rosser: My Lords, I will be relatively brief, preserve the heritage of the railway, which I think is having seen a copy of the statement on the Government’s unique. I suppose I would say that because I am very intentions for the Railway Heritage Committee. As my interested in it, but it is part of our national heritage. noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester has explained, Many noble Lords will know that the whole of the the committee exercises statutory powers in designating Great Western Railway was built to broad gauge by a railway artefacts and records so that they do not get fellow called Brunel, whom we all revere as having damaged, destroyed or lost to ensure that what is built wonderful smooth tracks, great bridges and excellent important to our nation’s railway history is preserved. locomotives. However, many noble Lords might not The committee also has the function of agreeing which know that not a single broad-gauge locomotive has institution shall hold the records and artefacts so been preserved because at the time the industry was designated when they are no longer required by the much more interested in conversion, making money railway business that owns them. It also deals with the and moving forward. However, if this organisation terms under which they are to be offered to such had been around then, I am convinced that one or two institutions. To quote its mission statement: locomotives and other pieces of equipment would “The Railway Heritage Committee is established by statute to secure the preservation of evidence which is significant to the have been preserved. railway’s history”. I worked on building the Channel Tunnel for 15 years. As the Government’s own briefing note recognises, We managed to preserve one of the boring machines most of the people involved with the committee act on on the UK side and stuck it beside the motorway at a voluntary, unpaid basis and the cost of the Railway Folkestone. The French half of the organisation put Heritage Committee is currently around £100,000 per another one on a roundabout on the motorway at year. Good value for money, one would have thought, Calais. The UK one has been chopped up for scrap and perhaps that is how the Government might have but the French one is still there, so we do not have a seen it from day one if their decisions last year on the very good record in preserving these things. When future of public bodies had been taken with a little something has lost its usefulness, people say, “Let’s more thought and a little less speed. My noble friend make some money and scrap it”, or they are too busy Lord Faulkner of Worcester has worked tirelessly to doing something else. Therefore, this heritage committee try to ensure that the important statutory work of the forms a very important link in ensuring that a selection committee continues, albeit not through a continuation of the most important pieces of the railways is preserved. of the Railway Heritage Committee as the Government My noble friend also mentioned the history of the have already announced their hasty decision in principle heritage committee, starting off in its British Rail to abolish it. It would be interesting to know whether days. It went through the Strategic Rail Authority the Minister knew as much about the invaluable and stage and then, as he said, became a bit of an orphan. cost-effective work of the committee at the time the The Government are going through another decision was taken to abolish it as he does now. I reorganisation of the railways at the moment. I do not suspect not. Decisions are usually better when they are know what it is going to produce but a similar thing based on facts following discussion rather than has happened every five or 10 years for the past assumptions without discussion. 20 years. My noble friend’s proposal that the Railway However, we recognise that the Government, subject Heritage Committee responsibility should be transferred to confirmation from the Minister, have apparently to the National Railway Museum, which I hope will shifted their position in the light of the powerful case have a much longer life, until the next railway restructuring made by my noble friend. My noble friend’s proposal is an excellent idea, so I wish him well in his onward is that the Railway Heritage Committee’s power of negotiations with the Minister. I hope that the Minister designation should transfer to the board of trustees of in his response will give us some comfort that this the Science Museum, which also encompasses the might actually happen. National Railway Museum and thus has a very direct interest in railway history and the statutory work that The Earl of Mar and Kellie: My Lords, in a single is currently undertaken by the Railway Heritage sentence I hope that my noble friend the Minister will Committee. I understand that the Minister is likely to be able to point actively to a secure and active home be giving a positive response to my noble friend Lord for railway heritage preservation. Faulkner of Worcester’s proposal, which, from the Government’s point of view, provides a face-saving Lord Bichard: My Lords, I have a slightly broader formula. The Railway Heritage Committee would still question for the Minister. What discussions have taken cease to exist, as the Government have already announced, place between the Cabinet Office, the Treasury and the but the important and invaluable statutory functions Office for National Statistics on what actions current of the committee would be retained. This would enable NDPBs need to take in order to shed that status? I the Government to avoid what would have been fully 811 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 812

[LORD ROSSER] delighted to hear of his involvement in that—but he justified criticism that, for the sake of £100,000 a year, should be aware that that would best be achieved by they were prepared to see a vital part of our nation’s the RHC remaining in Schedule 1 and the powers history lost, damaged or destroyed and the enthusiasm being transferred at the time that the RHC is wound up. and dedication of so many volunteers discarded and The need to reduce the cost of government is an rejected. important consideration, but it is not the only one. The Government’s briefing document says that their The review of public bodies that took place last year decision in principle in October to abolish the Railway began by asking whether a function needed to be Heritage Committee did not include plans for a successor carried out at all and, if so, whether it was appropriate organisation. That statement is less than frank. At for it to be carried out by a public body. Our analysis that stage, the Government had no intention of there recognised that the railway industry already had a being a successor organisation. It will be thanks only long and proud record of preserving its heritage, and I to the efforts of my noble friend Lord Faulkner of pay tribute to the industry itself and to the flourishing Worcester, and others who recognise the importance voluntary railway heritage sector for that undoubted of preserving our railway heritage, if, as we hope he success. Our proposal to abolish the RHC did not will, the Minister indicates when he responds that the imply that we have no interest in railway heritage or Government are now involved in serious discussions that the good work that has already taken place would to ensure that the statutory functions of the Railway not be supported by other means. On the contrary, the Heritage Committee will continue, albeit through a Government are very sympathetic to rail heritage, and different channel, and will not be abolished by this the spending review settlement for the DCMS will rushed, ill-thought out and high-handed Bill on which ensure our continuous support for the National Railway the Government are back-tracking with ever increasing Museum. I know that the NRM and its parent body rapidity. the National Museum of Science and Industry will want to engage actively to support the work of the railway industry and the voluntary railway heritage 4pm sector. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, perhaps I In the context of the review of public bodies, the should start with the question posed by the noble question for the Government is therefore not only Lord, Lord Bichard. I hope that he will allow me to whether we can justify the cost of the committee but write to him, because the question extends somewhat whether we can justify retaining a statutory power of beyond the brief I have on this particular body; but it designation in a field where there is already an impressive points to the complexity of the reform of public voluntary record of preserving the industry’s heritage. bodies and why this has not been a particularly easy The noble Lord has presented his arguments in a process. positive way and they have led to further discussions The proposal today affects two government within government. We see merit in the proposed departments as well as the Cabinet Office, so it is transfer of the RHC power of designation to the frequently quite complex. However, there is a desire board of the trustees of the Science Museum, the legal across government to achieve reform of the public entity which stands behind the National Museum of body sector which I think is widely shared in this Science and Industry. Positive discussions on the detail House. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that I am are continuing. Noble Lords will know that I am always ready to learn from the noble Lord, Lord personally committed to supporting further discussions Faulkner of Worcester, and I have been greatly informed and continuing to engage with the noble Lord on his about the work of the Railway Heritage Committee as proposals. In those circumstances, and in view of the a result of the dialogue that I have had with him. I join fact that his amendment would not in any case be in the tributes paid across the House to the work that the best means to achieve his desired goal, I hope the the noble Lord did during his period as chairman of noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment the Railway Heritage Committee. I thank him for the to allow the use of time between now and Report to energetic and positive way in which he has reacted to take these positive, detailed discussions forward, and the Government’s changes and for what he has done to we will update the House at Report. bring about what I hope will be a satisfactory outcome. I hope that the noble Lord will understand when I Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, I thank all say that the committee’s appearance in Schedule 1 noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. does not reflect on the distinguished service that he I am a little overwhelmed by the compliments paid in and his members have given to the committee over the one or two quarters to me on this, but this has been a years. The committee’s current powers are to apply a collective effort by a lot of people who care about statutory designation to rail-related items of heritage railway heritage and railway heritage preservation. interest. Above all, I want to pay my own tribute to the The noble Lord’s amendments would move the Minister for the generous and gracious way in which committee from Schedule 1 to Schedule 5. They would he has listened and been willing to accept the arguments therefore allow the committee’s powers to pass to that have been put to him. The most important thing another body while it retains its status as a public that he has said—and this is the change in government body. I understand the noble Lord’s desire for the policy—is that the Government now accept that there committee’s powers to be retained, for example under needs to be statutory protection for railway heritage. the National Museum of Science and Industry, which They did not accept that, and the Department of operates the National Railway Museum—and I am Transport did not accept that, in the initial press 813 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 814 release last autumn when the committee was included avoided if the Government had consulted instead of in Schedule 1 to the Public Bodies Bill. I accept just rushing ahead with the proposals. completely his point that my amendment will not be However, they have sat back and reassessed the necessary if the Government are able to come forward position; and on 17 February, the Secretary of State at Report with alternative arrangements. On that basis, honestly and openly announced three major retractions. and on the understanding that he has expressed today I see that one name added to my amendment today is and the agreement that we have already reached and that of the Minister, and I am very grateful that he has will continue to discuss, I am very happy indeed, if the added his weight to mine. I hope that, between us, we Committee agrees, to withdraw the amendment. will carry the day. In the other place, the Secretary of State said that her announcement, Amendment 46 withdrawn. “will allow for more measured and rational debate”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/2/11; col. 1155.] That implies that the government proposals had not Amendment 47 been measured and had not been rational. They had Moved by Lord Clark of Windermere not. As I said, the Government have now said that 47: Schedule 1, page 17, line 11, leave out “Regional advisory they were wrong, and I accept their words. committees established under section 37(1)(b) of the Forestry My specific amendment is about the regional advisory Act 1967.” committees—not in themselves a great part of the scheme of things, but a useful part. I could never Lord Clark of Windermere: I believe that with understand why the Government were so opposed to Amendment 47 we are also discussing a series of other regional advisory committees. We looked at that when amendments which relate to forestry issues. I shall I was chair of the Forestry Commission. We examined carry on in the spirit of bonhomie which has engulfed everything, because I was determined to sweat the the Benches in the House today but I must also say assets of the Forestry Commission. They belong to that I could not have foreseen such a situation arising the public, so we must get value for money from those a couple of weeks ago. The Government have made it lands and those trees. We looked at everything, including very easy for us to be very positive because they have the regional advisory committees, but at the end of the listened to what we have been trying to say—or at least day, when we added it all up, we found that their net I would like to think that they have been listening. The worth to the commission was far greater than the cost. Minister has certainly been listening. I am not sure There are nine committees. The idea is that they whether it was my arguments that persuaded him to allow the commissioners to have an entrée into thinking move his position or whether it might have been the on a regional basis. We had devolved a lot of our half-million people who signed the 38 Degrees referendum, policies from the national, England level down to the or the 82 per cent of their own supporters who opposed regions. In some cases, we had given money to the their initiative, or the 86 per cent of the general public regions and said, “Youmay want to spend it differently who opposed the Government’s proposals. If was not in the north-east as opposed to the south-west”. In my arguments or any of those other possibilities perhaps performing those functions, we really needed the regional it was the mass meetings. advisory committees. I suggest that strategy of trying What has been really encouraging over the past few to engage with local people was the right thing to do months is the fact that the British people have spoken and one reason why there was so much opposition to in a way that I cannot remember them speaking before. the government proposals of a few weeks ago. We got Across the country we have found protest groups— that right. people—getting organised to fight the Government on this issue. Sometimes it has been just small groups of 4.15 pm people with one local forest. In other cases—such as The regional advisory committees are voluntary; the Forest of Dean, the Lake District or Chopwell in the chairs get a small honorarium but the rest are the north-east—there have been very big demonstrations volunteers—a very broad cross-section of the population. involving thousands of people, often in quite remote We have some chairs who are academics, some who forests. are environmentalists, and one who is the rector of I think that the Government got the message, but I Hexham Abbey in the north-east of England. We also must say that they have caused a lot of trouble, offence have business people. In itself it has been a real fund of and concern. Many workers in the Forestry Commission, knowledge and information for the Forestry Commission. whom I regard as some of the finest workers in this In the north-west, for example, there are five people country, have been offended by some of the comments involved in rural and forestry businesses. There is one made by Mr Cameron. I am sure that he did not mean each in academia, the third sector, health, the environment what he said, but he has caused great offence to them. and the RDAs. We have a broad section, which has The struggle in which we have been involved of late been invaluable in carrying out our particular jobs. was justified in one of our local newspapers. The They have met three or four times a year while the Cumberland News had a piece this weekend in which it chairs meet twice a year. Therefore, we have some held vox pops asking people what they thought about commonality right across the country. the Government’s proposal for forestry. A woman I am very pleased indeed that the Minister has said, “I am so relieved. My husband works in the added his name to mine and that he will support this forest. We have been worried sick. We have hardly move to knock out the regional advisory committee slept. What a relief it is now”. It is that sort of from the Bill today. While I am on that subject perhaps hardship, that sort of worry, which could have been I may add that we had a discussion earlier about the 815 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 816

[LORD CLARK OF WINDERMERE] to prevent a debate that otherwise might go on for Home Grown Timber Advisory Committee on which some considerable time. I think that we can forestall the House did not push for a decision. Will the Minister that debate. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Clark of now be prepared to take that back and look at it again Windermere—my noble friend, if I can put it that way, on Report? Although I agree with him that it has not in that we come from the same part of the world, operated for a number of years, I feel that, when we support the same football team and are looking forward get the report from the Secretary of State’s committee to seeing each other at Wembley on 3 April this of experts, we might find that that committee could be year—that I always listen to him, as do my colleagues used for another reason. For example, the Government in government. Indeed, we always listen to other people, have appointed a regulatory authority dealing with so it is not just the honeyed words of the noble Lord. forestry. It may well be that this committee could be We have listened to the words of everyone throughout useful to the recommendations of that committee. I the country, even—dare I say it?—to our local newspaper, hope that the Ministry will perhaps look at it and see the Cumberland News, and the vox pop in it, to which whether it is possible to bring it forward at a later stage. he referred. I end by asking the Minister a couple of questions. I am grateful for what the noble Lord said and for The first arises from his announcement on Schedule 7 the kind words about what my right honourable friend today. It was a very welcome announcement in which the Secretary of State said when she made her Statement he said that Schedule 7 would disappear, but also that on 17 February setting out a series of announcements a number of bodies might be transferred to other concerning our forestry policy in England. I stress that schedules to the Bill. Can he give us an assurance that these amendments relate purely to England; I think when the Secretary of State announces that all references that there are others relating to Wales, which we will to the Forestry Commission will be removed from the leave to one side for the moment. As she put it—I Public Bodies Bill, the Forestry Commission will not repeat her words—they, be one of the bodies transferred from Schedule 7 to an earlier schedule of the Bill? Perhaps he can give me “will allow for more measured and rational debate about the that reassurance. I am sure that it is fairly straightforward. future direction of forestry policy”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/2/11; col. 1155.] Can I tease a little more information from the Minister about the Secretary of State’s announcement She said that because—dare I say it?—despite what and how it relates to the series of amendments that we the noble Lord said, we were not getting a measured are discussing? Most of the discussion is about the 85 and rational debate on forestry as a result of per cent of the Forestry Commission land which the misunderstandings behind what had happened. My Secretary of State cannot order the commissioners to right honourable friend announced that the consultation sell, as it would be illegal for them to sell such a large on the future of the public forest estate would be section of the state forest. However, the Government ended, and she has done that. This was done because announced that they were going to sell 15 per cent it was quite clear from those early responses to the over the next four years. That was withdrawn from the consultation that the public and many MPs and Members market pending the consultation. What is the of this House were not happy with what we had set Government’s thinking on this 15 per cent? Will it go out. ahead? We believe that it should not go ahead. However, As stated in the announcement, an independent if it does, we believe that any money raised by selling panel to consider forestry policy will be established off forests should be ploughed back into the forestry and, in due course, we will let the House and another estate, as happened under the previous Labour place know further details about it. It will report to the Government. Secretary of State this autumn with advice on the I also ask a question that is puzzling a lot of people. future direction of forestry and woodland policy in What legal advice has the Minister had on the issue of England, the role of the Forestry Commission and the the 15 per cent? When the 15 per cent has been sold role of the public forest estate. The panel will include and the 85 per cent becomes the 100 per cent, is the representatives of key environmental and access Secretary of State entitled to order the Forestry organisations alongside representatives of the forestry Commission to sell off an extra 15 per cent, and so on? industry. Its membership and terms of reference will That question raises a lot of uncertainties and it be published shortly. I ought to make it clear that, would be very helpful if it could be answered. The although it will include a wide range of representatives, answer could give people a lot of comfort and might we hope that all those appointed will be appointed for help the Government to buy back the support and their knowledge and expertise. We also hope to keep good will of the British people which they will need in this body small so that it can be properly focused. I their approach to the disposal of Forestry Commission think that all noble Lords know the danger of allowing land. I beg to move. bodies of this sort to grow like Topsy. I confirm that the panel will have an independent chairman. The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, I should point out that if this My right honourable friend also announced that amendment is agreed to I will not be able to call the Government will support the removal of all those Amendment 47A. clauses from the Public Bodies Bill. I was very grateful to the noble Lord for not reading out all the amendments The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, that are being taken as part of this group, but we can Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs take it as read that they will go through in due course. (Lord Henley): My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord As a result, there will be a number of other amendments Judd, speaks, I think that it will be useful if I intervene that I think noble Lords will not wish to move because 817 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 818 they relate to clauses that will no longer be there. We advance of the panel reporting back to us. That is why can take it that forestry is, as I put it on another we suspended those sales, having completed the sales occasion, purely in relation to this Bill, a dead parrot, that we had inherited from the previous Labour other than forestry in Wales, and will not be debated. Government. That means that we will remove the Forestry Commission’s regional advisory committees, which are the subject of Lord Knight of Weymouth: I have a brief question the lead amendment. for the Minister. When I was a Minister working with The noble Lord also asked what we are intending to my noble friend, we were selling some forestry land, do about the Home Grown Timber Advisory Committee. but we were also acquiring land. Does he intend to He will remember that we had a debate about it earlier continue to acquire land on behalf of the Government in Committee and that I referred to it as a dead parrot and the state? because it had not sat since 2005. It was while the noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere, was chairman Lord Henley: Decisions will be made as appropriate. of the Forestry Commission that it ceased to have any The point is that the previous Government—I will members. I ought to be careful about this, but I should mention the figures again—sold something of the remind the noble Lord that it was his statutory duty to order of 25,000 acres without any protection. I accept have such a committee and to have members of such a that they bought some back, but they did not buy committee, but he decided that there would no longer back as much as 25,000 acres. One has to recognise the be members of the committee and that the committee fact that not all the land that the Forestry Commission would no longer meet. When he comes to answer, he owns is appropriate to belong in the public estate. may assist the House by advising us why he decided That is why the previous Government, among whom that it was no longer necessary to abide by his statutory the noble Lord was such a wonderful ornament, sold duty to have members of that committee or even to off land, or instructed the noble Lord, Lord Clark, have the committee. The simple fact is that that committee who is about to intervene, to sell it off, as he did. has not met since 2005. As I said on that earlier occasion, it is a dead parrot, along with all the others. Lord Clark of Windermere: I agree with the Minister It is up to the noble Lord to make the case for it. If the that there come occasions when it is appropriate to sell noble Lord wants to put a case for preserving that a small part of the estate. However, the difference committee at Report, I will always look at the advice between us and the present Government is that, under that he puts before us and I will listen to his arguments us, all the moneys received from the sale of any forest as to why we should resurrect or resuscitate that dead land either was used to buy new forest land—sometimes parrot. The noble Lord, however, made it quite clear at a greater cost, because it was in the urban areas—or by his actions in 2005 that he did not want it, so I do went back into forestry. As I understand it, with this not quite see why now, in 2011, he would want to 15 per cent sell-off, the Government are using money revive it—unless, just possibly, he has some mischievous from forestry for the Treasury or for Defra’s general reason of his own, which I would never suspect that he budget. possibly could. Anyway, we will look at that in due course, if the noble Lord wants to bring it back at Lord Henley: No decisions have been made about Report. any of that whatever, but I remind the noble Lord We will, as I said, remove all those clauses relating that, although it might have been said that land was to Schedule 1 and to Clauses 17 and 18 and there will sold off purely to buy back other land, some of the be a series of small consequential amendments. My proceeds were used to top up the running costs of noble friend Lord Taylor has put his name down to do the Forestry Commission. I am not sure that that is that—regional forestry committees and all the others the right way to go about these things. will come out. I make it clear that everything that the I want to get back to the 15 per cent, which was the noble Lord wishes for the moment has been dealt last point made by the noble Lord. The Forestry Act with. I should also make it clear that the withdrawal of requires that there should be a substantial forestry the forestry-related provisions for England from the estate. The noble Lord will be familiar with the 1967 Act Bill does not affect the Welsh Assembly Government’s and all the previous Acts. That estate should be placed policy proposals in relation to restructuring their at the disposal of the Forestry Commission to manage. arrangements for the delivery of their environmental I will not go into all the legal advice that we have policy, including policy on forestry in Wales. That is received from lawyers, as is the convention that the for another day and will be for those who will respond noble Lord will be fully aware of, but we do not on these matters. consider that the sale of 15 per cent would undermine The noble Lord asked why we can sell 15 per cent. that statutory regime. That is where we are on that The previous Administration used these powers to sell matter. I hope that I have explained where we are. I am land and I have referred beforehand to the fact that grateful— under the noble Lord’s watch, when he was chairman of the Forestry Commission under the previous 4.30 pm Government, some 25,000 acres were sold without any Baroness Williams of Crosby: I apologise for protection whatsoever. We make it clear that, should intervening, but I wanted to make certain that I we be selling any, we will make sure that there is understood exactly what the Minister was saying. I appropriate protection offered in terms of access, the take it that, along with the major dead parrot, all the environment and biodiversity. Of course—as I think smaller parrots die as well, including all the amendments we have made clear—we will not be selling anything in that come under the broad heading of Clauses 17 and 819 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 820

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF CROSBY] Lord Clark of Windermere: My Lords, I appreciate 18. However, on the proposed expert panel on forestry, that the Minister has been very generous with his time which I understand will report back in the autumn, with me. However, in order to expedite matters later, I will there be an opportunity to raise the issue of the raise one point that he did not answer, which is quite make-up of that panel? For example, will it include a critical. Is the 15 per cent cumulative, so to speak? person with knowledge of the heritage forests? If there When the 15 per cent has been got rid of, can this is no opportunity to raise this, I will have to pursue the stand for 15 per cent on the next 100 per cent? issue through Parliamentary Questions. I speak as someone who was about to make an eloquent short Lord Henley: That would depend on legal advice on speech on the subject of the New Forest—the largest one’s interpretation of the Forestry Act 1967. The and most historic heritage forest. I will pass that noble Lord will be more familiar with that Act, and all opportunity up given whatever answer the Minister previous legislation, than even I am. He will know that gives me on the earlier point. it imposes a duty that there should be a substantial forestry estate at the disposal of the Forestry Commission. Lord Henley: I will not speculate on the make-up of It is a matter for interpretation as to what size that that panel other than what I have said already. I said should be. that the panel should be relatively small. Most of us would agree that to create an overlarge panel would be Lord Judd: I am sure that the whole House would unwieldy. Having said that, while I was abroad I agree that it is a great privilege to participate in a received an e-mail from the noble Baroness, Lady debate on an amendment initiated by my noble friend Royall, suggesting one particular group, while many Lord Clark of Windermere. There are few people who other noble Lords have sent other suggestions. We have contributed more to the cause of the forests than want to create a small group but it should be understood has my noble friend. One thing that was particularly by everyone that that group would have the power to important about his time in the chair was that he saw consult and to set up sub-groups to ensure that as to it that the commission addressed the issue of involving many as possible are included. I will not give a precise local communities in a sense of ownership and figure about how small that group should be, but it participation in the enjoyment of the forests. Under should, as I said, be relatively small and focused. We his stewardship, a great deal was done to open up the want to make sure that it reaches out to all the other forests and to encourage people to use them and to people and we will make it quite clear to members of have fun in them, but in a way that did not rape their that group once we have appointed it, and appointed very special character and heritage, in the sense that an independent chairman, that they should be consulting they are places of great spiritual significance and with many of those who have already written to the beauty.The whole House, irrespective of party difference, department or made their views known. will want to pay tribute to my noble friend. I am not sure whether the noble Baroness will have I endorse what my noble friend said about the spirit another opportunity in our proceedings on the Bill to in which the noble Lord who is leading on this Bill has discuss these matters because all the forestry amendments approached those issues that are put before him by that can be are in this group. One or two amendments people with special interests. I suppose that I shall cannot be in this group because they would insert have to say several times during our deliberations on clauses after Clauses 17 and 18 and, if those clauses this Bill that I should declare an interest. I am vice- are not there, the amendments obviously cannot be president of the Campaign for National Parks and, moved. I am sure that the noble Baroness will find particularly in the context of the forests, I have the ways of tabling amendments should she wish to do so. great privilege of being the president of the Friends of She will also find ways of speaking to me or to other the Lake District. One thing that my noble friend colleagues to put forward her views about who might mentioned which I would like to underline is the or might not be on the panel. strength, depth and spontaneity of feeling expressed I notice that the noble Baroness has tabled when people felt that the forests were under threat. It Amendment 174ZB much later on, which cannot be was an extraordinary social cross-section of people, moved because it would come after these amendments which was also impressive. The phrase one heard over and those clauses will not exist. The amendment is and again was, “What are they doing to our forests?”. also in the names of her noble friends Lord Greaves There was a deep feeling that these forests were the and Lord Strathclyde, but my noble friend Lord heritage of the British people and that they belonged Strathclyde’s name is there in error. That amendment to the British people. We all ought to try to make mentions the New Forest, Sherwood Forest, the Forest connections in government between things that are of Dean and Kielder Forest. I was intrigued to see happening in different spheres and I put it to the Sherwood Forest mentioned. I had visions of sylvan Government that, at a time when the Prime Minister glades and Errol Flynn skipping around in green chooses to talk about British character, it is very tights, with the noble Baroness possibly as Maid Marion. important not to attack those things that people feel But we will see about that in due course. are central, in a tangible way, to being part of Britain. The noble Baroness will find her own way of making Their forests are certainly part of that. suggestions about who should or should not be on the I was glad to put my name to the amendment committee. All I am saying is that we would like to dealing with the regional advisory committees. I referred keep it small and focused. Although they might represent to my role in the Friends of the Lake District and in certain groups, we want those on the committee to be the Campaign for National Parks, which brings together there for their individual expertise and experience groups concerned about national parks all over the rather than for representing the particular groups involved. country. I think that it is important that, in the 821 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 822 commission’s administration of the forests, real efforts regard to forestry without regard for the special status are made to get a local perspective, so that there is a of the Forest of Dean recognised in earlier legislation. real forum in which local issues and priorities can The Government have wisely withdrawn all the clauses come forward and be taken into account in the way relating to forestry. When they return with some new that things are handled. If nominated and appointed and different proposals relating to the future of the in the right way, advisory committees on a regional forests, of which we have had some hints already, I basis are a significant way in which to give meaning to hope they will at that point recognise that when people this sense of ownership by the people as a whole, speak of the Forest of Dean, they are not talking because it is possible for the local arguments to be about a collection of trees, but about a series of heard and taken into account. That is why it is so communities with a common sense of identity. People important that the advisory committees should continue. call themselves foresters simply because the Forest of In his remarks, my noble friend made considerable Dean is where they live, and their sense of identity reference to the issue of the 15 per cent. I hope that the comes more from the forest than from the particular Minister, whom I regard as a good Cumbrian friend, towns, villages or hamlets that are part of it. To talk will forgive my saying that he did not convincingly about changes in ownership with even the smallest answer the point. He kicked it into touch, because he possibility of withdrawal of access or unwelcome said that it “all depended”. With all the blunt directness development is to provoke a deep emotional response that I have come to love in the people of Cumbria, all I in people who have, in many cases, inhabited the forest can say is, “Come off it”. If these forests belong to us for many generations—that quite apart from the more and if we have expressed such a degree of concern, we general issues of the ownership and stewardship of the do not want to find ourselves going down a road along forests on which the Government have wisely changed which, through the back door, exactly what we have their mind. So I am grateful to the Government for expressed ourselves as against is accomplished over a withdrawing the clauses that they have, rendering my period of years. From that standpoint, we need a amendment obsolete. I can assure your Lordships that categorical assurance from the Government that this the people of the Forest of Dean are both relieved and is not a back door to achieving the short cut that they elated by the sense that they have seen off a particularly were introducing in this Bill. On the 15 per cent issue, I ill-thought-through policy. hope that my noble friend Lord Clark will forgive my saying that there was a good deal of anxiety among 4.45 pm those who were protesting about what had happened already. In a sense this is not a partisan point but one Lord Rooker: My Lords, I will intervene briefly in that stretches across the whole issue of the administration the debate because I realise that the Minister and the of the forests. noble Lord, Lord Taylor, have been incredibly helpful. It is the first time I have spoken on the Bill. I just want I thank my noble friend for moving the amendment. to raise an issue that was not really covered by the I say to the noble Lord opposite that it is time to take Minister’s statement—otherwise I would not be standing the message of the British people and build strongly up. That relates to the forests being used for motor on that—and not immediately, on day one, to start sport. back-pedalling. The Minister referred to the importance of his advisory panel. Yes, I understand the business Last year, the motor sport industry contributed executive, streamlined modern management talk, which almost £1 million to the Forestry Commission for says that we must have a small, concentrated group of 41 events, 31 of which were stage rallies. There is specialist people who will conduct this. Of course, you nowhere else they can take place. Each one of those is cannot dismiss that, because it is a very responsible estimated independently to bring to the local community job to administer the amount of forest that is there to about £2 million when it takes place. Ministry of be administered. But in the spirit of what the British Defence land used to be used. That is not really people have just done and said, it will be crucial that possible in any event because of use in the past so the the advisory panel is representative and is one with forests are the only areas where these rallies can take which the people can identify, so that it is seen place. There was a centrally managed agreement between transparently to bring together the different interests the Forestry Commission and the Motorsports and communities among those who support the forests Association, which is the governing body for UK and were so aghast at what was proposed. There is a motor sport. I have a couple of questions, because the balance to be struck between business efficiency, on Minister said that a measured and rational debate was which the arguments of course must be taken seriously, not taking place, so it is going to take place with the and the job of carrying the public with whatever is review. proposed by seeing that it comes from a representative First, will the independent chair be appointed as a body with which they can identify. I am glad to be able result of an advertisement or a few phone calls? It is to support the amendment. quite important that we know that. Secondly, will the Land Access and Recreation Association have a place The Lord Bishop of Gloucester: My Lords, I, too, on the body? I am making a special plea because that am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Taylor and Lord is the one way that the motor sport industry will be Henley, for what they have said this afternoon, because represented. It employs 38,000 people, 25,000 of whom it means that there will be no need for me to move are professional engineers, and is worth something like Amendment 47A relating to the Forest of Dean. As £4 billion to the economy. Most of the teams that we noble Lords are aware, there was particular anxiety see with foreign flags are actually in this country, and anger in the Forest of Dean, which falls within my where the cars are designed and produced. We are diocese of Gloucester, at the proposals to legislate in talking about big business here, where the forests play 823 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 824

[LORD ROOKER] clauses out. I now believe firmly that if the Government an absolutely crucial part, particularly for the rally had not seen sense on this, this House would at least side of the industry. It is very important that they can have taken them out before it sent the Bill to the put their piece at the table and are not reduced to Commons. Nevertheless, we are now in the position external flag-waving or lobbying. If LARA is represented that we are in. on the body, then I am assured that the issues relating to motor sport can be raised, because the issues have I praise not just the Government for their action not gone away. If I can be satisfied with that, there will but those who have campaigned on this matter. It is not be any need to raise this in future. I realise that easy to attack or criticise the campaigners by saying forestry is coming out of the Bill. Nevertheless, as this that some of their messages were a bit simplistic and body and review panel are going to be meeting, if we not all of the 535,000 people who signed the 38 Degrees can get these things settled now, it will make life a lot petition had a detailed knowledge of all the issues. easier for the ministry and for Defra, which, I presume, That is absolutely true but how many people have a is going to have to fill a hole in its funding in due detailed knowledge of all the issues when they cast a course. vote in a general election? Once these campaigns started to mushroom, I was determined to make sure that the people running them had as much knowledge and Lord Greaves: My Lords, along with other noble understanding as possible of what the Government Lords, I thank the Government, particularly my noble were putting forward, what the Forestry Commission colleague Lord Henley, for intervening early in this does and the facts and figures about the estates, as well debate, which was extremely helpful in setting us on as parliamentary procedures. They could then at least the road for debate in certain areas. I want to thank have some slight understanding of how the Bill would the Government generally for their common sense in go through this House. Not many people have such an dropping the forestry clauses from the Bill, or at least understanding—including some Members of this House, proposing to support the dropping of them when we probably—but I thought that was at least a useful get to them. The Government have listened to what thing to do. If I have been able to play a small part in has been going on; I suspect as well that they have that, I am very pleased to have done so. been retreating in a certain amount of disarray in the face of the public opposition which they did not The huge petition that the noble Lord, Lord Clark, expect. I am not, however, going to stand up and talk mentioned was quite astonishing. Similar petitions— about U-turns and that kind of thing. It is always about, perhaps, more important things than the forests strange that when Governments put forward things in many people’s eyes—rarely get into six figures but that some of us might not like, they are accused of this one, if the Bill had got to the Commons with the being obstinate and stubborn if they refuse to listen to forestry clauses still included, would clearly have been what people say. However, if they agree to change and signed by a million people. This is an astonishing withdraw things, they are accused of making U-turns. phenomenon. In addition to that, several national They can be accused of anything by people who want campaign groups were set up and campaigned mainly to accuse them but I am delighted by the Government’s via the internet. They included Save England’s Forests, decision to take out these clauses. which got its first real boost of publicity from the celebrity letter to the Sunday Times. I see the noble I speak in favour of the amendment moved by the Lord, Lord Hattersley, in his place. He was thought to noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere. I would have be a celebrity who might like to sign the letter. Nobody signed it if there had been any space when I first bothered to ask me but that does not worry me at all discovered it. I have tabled several amendments in this because I am not a celebrity. group, which are now all dead parrots or perhaps dead budgies—or, since we are talking about trees, dead There was also Save Our Woods. The young people woodpeckers. I do not know; I get lost among these who run that have done a very good job in setting out metaphors. The Minister talked about Sherwood and a vast amount of factual information and creating a suggested that my noble friend Lady Williams of forum where people could exchange information. I Crosby might be Maid Marian. I was not sure whether believe that all this has contributed to the amount of he was putting himself forward as the Sheriff of knowledge and understanding in the campaign groups Nottingham. If he is, the right reverend Prelate could being much greater than it was at the beginning. In be Friar Tuck. All I can say is: please can I be Robin addition, providing huge local support to the campaigns Hood? were local organisations, some of which were enumerated When I proposed that Clauses 17, 18 and 19 should by the noble Lord, Lord Clark. Some of them covered not stand part of the Bill, I originally did so for big forests such as the Forest of Dean and the New traditional House of Lords Committee reasons. These Forest, others covered larger areas such as the Lake clauses needed a great deal of probing and discussion, District, and many more, springing up almost by the which the stand part debates would have allowed to day, were concerned with their own local forests. Add take place. I was also concerned about what appeared, to that all the access groups, which were absolutely on the face of it, to be fairly draconian Henry VIII united against the proposals. Towards the end of the powers being granted. In retrospect I was right to be campaign, a lot of the established groups, such as the concerned, but as time went on I became more convinced Woodland Trust and the RSPB, were coming on board. that this was not the appropriate legislation to deal It was an astonishing campaign. The involvement of with the future of the Forestry Commission and its the internet, Twitter, Facebook and all these realms land, woodlands and forests. Therefore, I became more that I do not know much about has been a complete serious in believing that this House ought to take these eye-opener to me. 825 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 826

Basically, the problem was this. First, the Government, consultation—although I was delighted when they although they would put it in slightly less brutal terms, said that they would remove these clauses—because a botched the entire publicity throughout the last six lot of organisations were doing a lot of work preparatory months of last year of what they were doing. Different to putting in their views. It sounds—to a cynic outside, Ministers, although not the noble Lord, Lord Henley, anyhow—as though the Government have said, “We were saying different things. It was not at all clear what have looked at the first results of the consultation. We they were saying. That gave the campaigns a lot of do not like them and therefore we are stopping the fertile ground. This was also about trees. As a local consultation”. However, a lot of work contributed to councillor for many years, I learnt long ago that you that consultation, and it would be helpful if organisations mess about with trees at your peril, unless you explain in the field, campaigning groups and everyone else to people exactly what you are doing and why you are were at least able to contribute to the work of panel by doing it and you get them on side. It really came home putting in their views. to me on one occasion, when Pendle council—I declare that I am a member of Pendle council—was proposing 5pm to remove some trees outside the municipal hall, which We all have views about future policy. The noble is a council-run theatre in Colne. These trees were Lord, Lord Clark, has secured a debate, which is still diseased and needed removing, yet there was huge going ahead on Thursday, in which we will all be able public opposition to it. We now have some nice birches to put forward those views more positively. However, there, which are much better. Nevertheless, at the all those people out there have suddenly not just council committee meeting at which this was being become interested in forests—many have always been decided, a lady addressed the committee in tears. She interested—but are committed to the cause of the said, “Do you know, me and my husband, we had our forests, as they see it. The genie is out of the bottle and first kiss under that tree, and you’re going to chop it will not go back in. The campaigns and the campaign down”. That is how people think about trees. If you groups are alive and will not go away. They want to be are going to do things to trees, you have to be very involved. If there is a vacuum for the next six months, careful; you have to prepare your ground and you have they will continue to be involved, and it will not be to to take people into your confidence from the very the Government’s advantage unless they can find beginning. constructive ways to involve these groups, as well as I support many of the comments made about the everyone else who is interested in the forests, and allow independent panel and some of the questions. How them to feed their information into this independent will it be chosen? It is all going to happen fairly panel and understand how the panel’s thinking is quickly if it is to report in the autumn, as is intended, progressing. so how will it be chosen? What are the criteria and the This has been an extraordinary event. It is the first mechanisms for deciding who should be on it, and of this nature that I have witnessed or been involved what are its terms of reference? The Government have in. It is actually exactly the same process that brought to come clean about these questions from the very people on to Tahrir Square in Egypt. That related to beginning. Furthermore, will there be any ongoing an altogether different issue, and this one is perhaps information and publicity about the panel’s work until less momentous. However, it involved the same kind of it produces its report? If not, there will be a vacuum communication, process and campaigning by use of for several months during which all sorts of rumours the internet and the involvement of many local groups. will develop and gain credence. The organisations that This may be the pattern for the future or it may be a have now been set up are not going to go away. They one-off, but whatever it is it is quite extraordinary. I will continue to ask questions; and if there are no congratulate the Government on withdrawing their answers, all sorts of information will get out there that proposals, but we now want constructive involvement may or may not be true. It is in the Government’s and inclusion of people in the process that is going interest to be as open as possible about the work of ahead. this panel and how it will work. There is a further question about the 15 per cent. Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, I do not wish to The Government have said that they have suspended detain your Lordships with other matters, but I should selling any more of the 15 per cent until they have like to ask the Minister about my noble friend Lord better protections on access and biodiversity. That is Clark’s question on the cumulative 15 per cent, which very welcome. How will these protections be announced, was followed up by my noble friend Lord Judd. My when will they be announced, and will the panel be understanding of the Minister’s reply was that it was a involved in that work as well as deciding the long-term question of the interpretation of the Forestry Act. I future of the majority of the estate? have always assumed that the Government, who are A major consultation was run by the Forestry responsible for the administration of the Act, have Commission in 2009—not very long ago—which seems some idea of what it actually means. Will the Minister to have been dropped and forgotten. A lot of organisations be kind enough to write to my noble friend Lord fed into that consultation. Will the proposals and Clark explaining what the Government think the Forestry submissions that resulted from that consultation be Act actually means in that respect? fed into the panel as information on which it can consider their views, along with everything else? Will The Lord Bishop of Guildford: My Lords, I am there be a means by which the public can input into enormously grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Taylor the work of the panel, or is all consultation now dead? and Lord Henley, for their interventions this afternoon, I was disappointed when the Government dropped the and for the Secretary of State’s intervention in another 827 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 828

[THE LORD BISHOP OF GUILDFORD] system that are also in the Localism Bill, how will place some time ago. I speak as one who would have those protections to biodiversity, which I know the supported the amendment in the name of my colleague Minister holds dear, be retained? the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester, had the question been put. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, perhaps I Your Lordships’ House will be anxious to move on might ask one question on Scotland. Before anyone fairly quickly now, so I make one simple point as jumps up and says that this legislation does not affect someone who has taken a close interest in the Forest the forests in Scotland, I acknowledge that it does not. of Dean in particular and in the general debate about However, as the headquarters of the UK Forestry forestry. I refer to the process of preparing Bills. We Commission are in Scotland, the legislation could, as I have heard about the huge public response to the understand it, have a significant effect on Scotland. proposals as they have been understood, or even The original proposals involved a substantial loss of misunderstood. Had the section on forestry been jobs at Silvan House in Corstorphine. Now that there researched with close attention to the debates in your has been a U-turn and the Forestry Commission is to Lordships’ House in 1981 and in another place, almost continue with its responsibilities for forests in England, all the issues that have been in the public domain and will all the jobs held by people who are administering which have been debated so fiercely and strongly— and dealing with the English forests be retained at although, I agree, not always accurately—would have Corstorphine in Edinburgh? As I understand it, no put an amber light in the preparation of the Bill. announcement has been made about a U-turn on the Therefore, to save further embarrassment in government jobs. It was announced that 150 jobs would be lost at and policy, I gently propose that looking at what Corstorphine in Edinburgh, but that would seem a Parliament did on the previous occasion on an issue strange thing to do in the light of the announcement such as this would help in the construction of Bills. of a policy U-turn. It seems that the jobs in Edinburgh will still be necessary to carry out the tasks that have been done very well for many years. Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, I shall be extremely brief, but first perhaps I might follow the right reverend Prelate’s comments by saying that I Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: I, too, am very grateful have been puzzled from the very beginning of this Bill. to the Minister for the information that he provided at I find it extraordinary that the New Forest has been the beginning of this debate and for the gracious protected by primary legislation dating from 1877 apology from the Secretary of State in the other place through to 1970, yet essentially a process of statutory a couple of weeks ago. I, of course, welcome the orders can overtake and indeed overrun those original statement and the fact that all references to “forestry” primary Acts. Therefore, my first question is how such and the Forestry Commission are being deleted from Acts can be so easily set aside and whether one should the Bill. Can the Minister confirm that the Forestry reconsider the way in which consultation on legislation Commission will not appear in any other schedule if takes place. Schedule 7 is disappearing? Can he also provide clarification on Wales? I am not entirely certain what My second and only other question concerns the the position is now on Wales because the Forestry impact of the Localism Bill. Those of us who care Commission is mentioned in Clauses 13 to 16. about the forests have now established that this legislation was very unwise. However, I am not clear whether that Like the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and others, I Bill will insist that decisions on forests are taken at the pay tribute to the wonderful campaigns up and down most local level. The regions where the feeling is the country. I, of course, pay special tribute to the greatest are the ones that are most closely related to people of the Forest of Dean in the Hands off our the forests on which they depend. That is probably Forest campaign. It was the first campaign off the where the decisions should be taken, rather than statutory blocks and led the way for campaigns that drew proposals being made centrally. widespread support, and eventually the Government listened, as they should do, and changed their mind. Let us bear in mind the lessons of this Bill—the The sort of consultation the Government embarked deep lessons of how the British public hold forests as on after they had produced the Bill, which said that very dear and very important—and let us make sure they were going to enable forests to be sold, is not the that, when the Localism Bill emerges, there will be no right way of going about things. We should always attempt to go back to central control over the future have a consultation and a White Paper first. of the forests. I realise that the independent panel will listen to people’s views but, as many noble Lords have said, we Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, to save time, need to be assured that the independent panel is going I shall spare your Lordships my musings on my ramblings to work in a transparent and public way, and we need around the Forest of Dean which I enjoyed over two to know who is going to be on that panel and what days last week. However, like the noble Baroness, their remit is. If the Minister does not have answers to Lady Williams of Crosby, I want to ask a question those questions today, I trust that he will have answers about the Localism Bill. When I was the Forestry when we debate this issue again on Thursday. While I Minister, I was pleased to agree with my right honourable realise that the independent panel has been tasked by friend Yvette Cooper—when she was at the Department the Secretary of State and Defra, we on these Benches for Communities and Local Government—planning and in the Forest of Dean strongly believe that the policy statement 9, which protected biodiversity in small percentage of forests that remain in public hands—I forests. In the context of the changes to the planning think it is only about 15 per cent of the country’s 829 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 830 forests and woodlands—should remain in public would be more than the amount that we get in revenue. ownership and continue to be managed by the Forestry At other times, it is about the big society. In campaigns Commission, which does an excellent job. throughout the country the big society has spoken and I am therefore delighted that Clauses 17, 18 and 19 people want their publicly owned forests to remain as are being deleted and that all the other amendments national assets managed by the Forestry Commission. will fall. The reason why I and so many others from We all recognise that forests are part of our heritage. the Forest of Dean felt passionately about these things People recognise forests in terms of access, leisure, is because, as the right reverend Prelate said, the forest education, recreation and public well-being. They benefit is not just the woods but a community, and we felt that our economy through timber sales and forest products. our community as a whole was under threat. We enjoy They support government commitments to biodiversity customary privileges rather than established rights and carbon sequestration, and they provide a healthy and, like the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, natural environment. We want to ensure that our we felt that those customary privileges were under forests are safe now and for the future. For that threat. reason, I warmly welcome the changes and amendments I also added my name to amendments relating to that the Government are bringing forward to the public access, consultation, management and so much Public Bodies Bill. more. These issues are all of the utmost importance and I hope that they will be dealt with by the independent Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, it might be panel. Rights of access under the CROW Act are helpful if I answer some of the points raised before the simply not enough when it comes to forests. We are all noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere, speaks to his deeply grateful to the Forestry Commission for enabling amendment, for which the Government have said that cyclists, those who ride horses and those who practise they have sympathy and which I understand the House motor sports to enjoy our forests. They simply could is likely to accept. not do that under the CROW Act. There are a number of points, but the first and Likewise, I hope that the panel will consider Forestry probably the most important is to reassure the noble Stewardship Council certification. The right reverend Baroness, Lady Royall, that the Forestry Commission Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool tabled an amendment will not appear in any other schedule. It is not in on this together with my noble friend Lady Quin. In Schedule 7—that schedule is coming out; it is not in 1999, the whole of the public forest estate received Schedule 1, which we are coming to the end of; and it FSC certification, which recognises that these forests is not in Schedules 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6. It is dead. It is out of are responsibly managed according to environmental, the Bill. We have not dealt with the amendments social and economic criteria. We believe that that must relating to Wales but no doubt these can be discussed, continue. We want to ensure that this rigorous preferably by someone other than me, when we reach management standard is maintained for the future. that stage of the Bill. I make it clear to the noble We should pay tribute to the way in which the Baroness that forestry policy in Wales is a devolved Forestry Commission manages and protects our forests, matter. She will know that Wales has just gone through ensuring maximum biodiversity and a strong ecosystem, a referendum on extending its powers, so these matters as well as producing timber and making a huge are even more important. The House will consider in contribution to meeting our targets under Section 1 of due course the clauses relating specifically to Welsh the Climate Change Act 2008. That is another issue bodies. There are references to forestry in those clauses that is mentioned in an amendment by my noble but the policy aim is linked to the Welsh Assembly friend Lady Smith of Basildon. Government’s proposals on restructuring the activities of the Environment Agency Wales, the Countryside 5.15 pm Council for Wales and the Forestry Commission Wales I had a specific amendment relating to land in the to enable them to take a more integrated and sustainable Forest of Dymock. It did not enjoy special protection view of environmental management based on an under the 1981 Act but, like so many forests and ecosystems approach. We can discuss that in greater woodlands in our country, it is a very special forest. It detail when we get to it in the Bill. is a major block of ancient woodland from which the The next point that I want to deal with is the seeds of sessile oaks are taken and exported throughout advisory panel. I am not sure that I can say much the world. There are glorious wild daffodils, dormice more to noble Lords who have spoken about this. The and so much more. Forests and woodlands such as noble Lord, Lord Judd, as always, wanted a much these simply must remain as public national assets. larger panel that included everyone possible. I happen I have to ask, as is right on these occasions, why to feel—and most people would agree—that a small Clauses 17, 18 and 19 were put into the Bill in the first manageable panel would be better, particularly as it place. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, generously said will be given the remit to consult whomever it wishes that he thinks that perhaps it was a PR problem. That and to set up sub-groups to ensure that all others are is one of the reasons why the campaign got off the included. As I said, we have already received a large ground up and down the country. I think that there number of applications to join that panel and I think was a real fear because when people read the clauses in that everyone would agree that to take on everyone black and white, they were alarmed about the future would be a mistake. We need a proper panel that is of these forests. Why were the clauses in the Bill? appropriately balanced and one that consults people Sometimes we are told that it is because of the potential properly. I also stress that the panel will be independent for increasing revenue, although the statistics show and will have an independent chairman, so I think that that the cost of the sale and the necessary grants it is wrong when my noble friend Lord Greaves stresses 831 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 832

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] important. Forests are also there for people who want that it must be for the Government to make sure that it to walk, to ride or to drive and for those involved in consults people properly and that we get out information motorsports. They are also very important for biodiversity. about what the panel is doing. It should be for the In my own part of the world, up in Kielder, the forest panel, which is independent, to get out what it is doing is important for the few surviving red squirrels that we and to let people know how it is moving and in what have in this country. There are a whole host of different direction it is moving. I am sure that the panel will do uses that conflict with one another, which means that that with great expertise. any decision about access has to take into account biodiversity interests. I imagine that not all of those Lord Judd: After quite a number of years in both who are keen on walking in the forests are that keen on Houses, I am weary of Ministers putting words into some of the motorsports going on. We have to balance your mouth that were not in your mouth at the time at those issues. I am sure that the noble Lord will accept which you spoke. I did not argue for a vast representative that. It is one of the things that we will make sure is body. I said that the Minister had a real task to done in due course. balance business efficiency against transparency and Both right reverend Prelates referred to the Forest credibility. I am sure that he will understand that there of Dean and the fact that it is a special case. I accept has been deep misunderstanding and deep anxiety that the Forest of Dean is a special case. It was made a among the public about what has been afoot. If this special case in law as a result of the 1981 Act, if not panel is to carry conviction, it must somehow have before. Actually the Forest of Dean and the New people on it whom the wider public can identify with Forest have been special cases—I cannot say for how and feel are representative of their anxieties. long, so I had probably better use this legal term—“since time immemorial”. It goes back that far. The odd Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I could not agree more thing about the Forest of Dean and the New Forest is with the noble Lord, other than that I believe that a that, as I understand it, they were originally part of smaller—I am not going to suggest a figure, as I think the Crown Estate and then for some reason—why they that it would be wrong to get into figures at this but not others I do not know—became part of the stage—manageable panel under an independent chairman Forestry Commission. The simple fact is that they are is the best way forward. I apologise if the noble Lord now part of the Forestry Commission and not part of felt that I had put words into his mouth. I appreciate the Crown Estate. That is where we are. Another that I have probably done that in the past and I will public forest, Epping Forest, has gone into the ownership probably do it again in the future. However, I got the and management of the City of London. The Forestry impression that he was pushing for bringing everyone Commission is not necessarily the only public body in. The danger when a great many people want to be that can look after public forests in the best way. on something is that, if you do not make it clear right Epping Forest is not the only exception to that, but I from the start that you want a small and appropriately accept that it is a special case. focused committee, you end up giving in to every That brings me to the planning issues raised by my possible demand and you end up with something that noble friend Lady Williams and the noble Lord, Lord is unwieldy and unfocused and cannot do the job. This Knight of Weymouth. Yes, we are aware that there will panel will have the right to set up sub-groups or be changes as a result of the Localism Bill. We can sub-committees—whatever you call them—so that it give assurances, as my right honourable friend Greg can consult. We want to make sure that it talks to all Clark has done, that protection for ancient woodland those who have put in their views. in the existing planning guidance will be carried over That is why it is also very important that we have an into the national policy framework. All that will be appropriately independent chair. I am grateful for done, but we also feel that, as a result of the Localism questions that I have received on this from the noble Bill, it is important, as my noble friend Lady Williams Lord, Lord Rooker, and others about how that will be put it, that local communities should have a right to done. All I can say at this stage is that the independent have some input into what is going on in the forests or chairman will be appointed by the Secretary of State small woodlands in their area. after consultation. As we want this to report by the I want to touch on one or two other points. The autumn, we want to move on relatively speedily. I am noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, talked about jobs. I must sure that whomever we appoint, the noble Lord, Lord make it quite clear to the noble Lord and his party Rooker, who is smiling at this stage, will accept that we that the Forestry Commission, like a lot of other have appointed the right person, because he always public bodies, including public bodies within Defra, does in the end when we find the right person. I am will have to take its cuts and reductions as a result of sure that he is not putting himself forward for this job. the mess that we inherited. It is no different from any He will accept that we will find the right person in due other body. The change of tack that we have indicated course. It will be an independent panel under an on forests does not necessarily mean any change of independent chair. policy in what the Forestry Commission does in terms of its staff. That is a matter for the Forestry Commission That brings me on to the other comments that the to manage. noble Lord, Lord Rooker, made. As a former Member for a Birmingham seat, he raised the question of motorsport and its use of the forests. He was right to Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I put it to the Minister do that because it is important that we remember that that two factors are affecting the staff at Corstorphine. there are diverse users of all the forests. Forests are not One is the general economic climate in which, as he just there for growing timber, even though that is very says, they must take the hits along with other public 833 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Libya and the Middle East 834 bodies. The second is the Government’s policy on Both right reverend Prelates and all the other forestry. As I understand it, the U-turn involved the contributors to this debate have made the point that Forestry Commission continuing to manage forests in the general public’s feeling towards the forest has been England. Staff at Corstorphine have that responsibility, quite uncanny. The general public really do not so surely it is wrong to continue with the same level of discriminate between 85 and 15 per cent and the redundancies as was envisaged when the policy was Government will have to think very carefully about different. Will the Minister not have another look to how the 15 per cent is handled. However, that is a see whether some of the jobs in Edinburgh need to be matter for another day. We are talking now continued to deal with the new policy that has been specifically about Amendment 47—so we are talking announced, into which he has gone into detail? about the big society, localism and the regional and advisory committees. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I never like to Amendment 47 agreed. accuse the noble Lord of not having done something, because he is assiduous in his parliamentary work, but House resumed. it is obvious from what he says that he has made no effort to read the entire forestry consultation that we Libya and the Middle East put forward and have now withdrawn. If he had read Statement that, he would have known that there is no immediate plan to sell off everything willy-nilly, as he seems to be 5.32 pm suggesting, and as a result lay off half the Forestry The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Commission. We were looking at very long-term plans Strathclyde): My Lords, this might be a convenient possibly to change the ownership of this forest or that moment for me to repeat a Statement that was made in but, in many cases, it would have involved transferring another place by the Prime Minister earlier this afternoon. money to whoever took over some of those bodies. We The Statement is as follows. were not at that stage considering reducing the number “Mr Speaker, I would like to update the House on of staff, but we are asking the Forestry Commission, the evacuation of British nationals from Libya, the like all other bodies attached to Defra and other actions that we are now pursuing against Colonel government bodies, to take its fair share of the reductions Gaddafi and his administration and developments in that the Government are having to make as a result of the wider region. what we inherited. We have been working intensively to get our people out. As of now, we have successfully removed around Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I have had discussions 600 British nationals from Libya. The evacuation has with the representatives of the trade unions from centred on three locations: Tripoli airport, the port at Silvan House, who have briefed me in detail on that. Benghazi and the desert oil fields. At Tripoli airport, a My understanding is that at least some of the proposed series of six aircraft organised by the Foreign Office redundancies relate to the previous policy, which has and an RAF C130 Hercules flight have brought out now been abandoned. Unless my logic is completely more than 380 British nationals and a similar number crazy, it would seem that if you change your policy of foreign citizens. At Benghazi, HMS ‘Cumberland’ and continue with the present arrangements to look has carried out two evacuations from the port, taking after some of the English forests from the Forestry out 119 British nationals and 303 foreign citizens. The Commission headquarters, a review must be needed of first of these evacuations took place in very difficult whether the large number of redundancies originally sea conditions. The second arrived in Malta earlier envisaged is still now necessary. Is that not the case? today. These evacuations were assisted on the ground by five rapid deployment teams. In total nearly 30 extra Lord Henley: My Lords, that is not the case. I am staff from the Foreign Office helped marshal British not sure that the advice which the noble Lord has citizens in the midst of chaotic scenes in and around received was necessarily—dare I put it this way—as the airports and ports. accurate as it might have been. Anyway, the simple The most challenging part of the evacuation has, of fact is that the Forestry Commission, along with course, involved those British nationals scattered across others, will have to take its cut because of what we over 20 different locations in the oil fields deep in the inherited. desert. On Friday evening, I authorized a military I hope that I have dealt with all the points that have operation to bring as many as possible out of the been put to me in the course of the debate. I desert. On Saturday, two RAF C130 aircraft flew into appreciate the strength of feeling that had been held, the eastern desert and picked up 74 British nationals and I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Clark, will and 102 foreign nationals at three different locations. now press his amendment. As I said, we will support A second mission took place yesterday, bringing out a it. I hope that the rest of the House will support it and further 21 British nationals and 168 foreign nationals. that we can move on to other matters in the Bill. On the second mission, one of the aircraft involved suffered minor damage from small arms fire. This Lord Clark of Windermere: I rise very briefly just underlines the challenging environment in which the to say that it is a very unusual experience to find that aircraft were operating. one of my co-signatories to an amendment is a Indeed, Britain has taken on a leading role in government Minister and that I look forward to it co-ordinating the international evacuation effort. Our happening more and more in the future. I say that in AWACS aircraft are directing international aircraft the spirit in which the amendment has been moved. involved. Brigadier Bashall, who is commanding the 835 Libya and the Middle East[LORDS] Libya and the Middle East 836

[LORD STRATHCLYDE] all of our proposals. It condemns Gaddafi’s actions, operation, has established a temporary joint headquarters and imposes a travel ban and assets freeze on those at in Malta. I have thanked the Maltese Prime Minister the top of his murderous regime. It demands an immediate personally on behalf of the country. Not for the first end to the violence and the killing of protesters, access time in our history we must pay tribute to Malta and for international human rights monitors, the lifting of her people. In terms of numbers of British citizens restrictions on the internet and media, an end to the remaining in Libya, this is, of course, difficult to intimidation and detention of journalists and refers ascertain precisely given the situation on the ground. Libya’s current leaders to the International Criminal Many of them will be dual nationals and not all of Court to face the justice they deserve. them will want to leave. I asked for urgent work to be We were also the driving force behind a special done on accurate numbers in both categories: those session of the UN Human Rights Council on Friday, who wish to leave and those who currently do not. Our which started work to eject Libya from the council; current indications are that, as of today, there are and the Foreign Secretary is in Geneva today along fewer than 150 British citizens remaining in Libya, of with US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to see this which only a very small proportion wish to leave. work through. With our European partners, we have Clearly this can change at any time. We will keep the today secured agreement on freezing the assets of a House regularly updated. wider group of individuals, banning them from entering We will continue to do all we can to ensure that the European Union and also imposing a wider arms those who wish to leave can do so. HMS ‘Cumberland’ embargo on the Libyan regime. Britain is also leading will remain in the area, together with HMS ‘York’, in implementing these direct measures against the regime. which also stands ready off Tripoli to assist. We have I can tell the House today that here in the UK a military aircraft, including C130s and a 146, in Malta special Privy Council session was held yesterday as a ready to fly in at very short notice. The Government result of which we have now frozen the assets of will continue to focus on making sure our citizens are Gaddafi, five of his family members, people acting for safe. COBRA has met regularly to co-ordinate the them or on their behalf and entities that are owned or effort and I personally chaired three meetings over the controlled by them. The Treasury has stepped in to weekend. The National Security Council is looking at block a shipment of some £900 million in banknotes the overall strategic picture, meeting last Friday and destined for Libya. The Government have revoked again today, not least to look at other risks to British Colonel Gaddafi’s immunity as a head of state and citizens in the wider region. As I said last week, there neither he nor his family may freely enter the UK any will be lessons we will wish to learn from this evacuation, more. We have also revoked the visas of a number of including in respect of the hiring of charter aircraft, Libyans linked to the regime who are now on immigration use of defence assets and the need for greater redundancy. watch lists. Clearly an important decision was when to extract We will look at each and every way of stepping up the embassy. This was taken at the COBRA meeting pressure on this regime, including further isolation of on Friday and carried out on Saturday after the remaining the regime by expelling it from international organisations civilians had been extracted from Tripoli airport in and further use of asset freezes and travel bans to give parallel with the start of desert operations, which were the clearest possible message to those on the fringes of of course planned from Malta. Our judgment throughout the regime that now is the time to desert it. We do not has been that the risk to British citizens has been in any way rule out the use of military assets. We must growing. The Americans, French and Germans have not tolerate this regime using military force against its similarly suspended the operations of their embassies. own people. In that context, I have asked the Ministry Britain also retains a consul in Tripoli and a consular of Defence and the Chief of the Defence Staff to work warden in Benghazi. We have arranged that Turkey, with our allies on plans for a military no-fly zone. It is which still has several thousand of its own citizens in clear that this is an illegitimate regime that has lost the Libya, will look after British interests while our embassy’s consent of its people. My message to Colonel Gaddafi operations remain suspended. is simple: go now. I am sure that the whole House will want to put on Everyone hopes this situation will be resolved quickly record its thanks to all those who have made the but there is a real danger now of a humanitarian crisis rescue effort possible, to the skill of the RAF pilots, to inside Libya. We are acutely conscious of the risks of all those involved from all three armed services, to our shortages and are monitoring the situation closely. We diplomatic service and to all those who put themselves have dispatched technical teams to be in place at both in harm’s way to help our people leave safely. the Tunisian and Egyptian borders. Currently the Let me turn to the pressure we are now putting on most pressing need is assisting the large numbers of the Gaddafi regime. We should be clear. For the future migrant workers into Egypt and Tunisia to get home. of Libya and its people, Colonel Gaddafi’s regime Tomorrow, in response to a request from the UN, must end and he must leave. To that end we are taking Britain will fly in tents and blankets from our stocks in every step possible to isolate the Gaddafi regime, Dubai for use at the Tunisian border. The International deprive it of money, shrink its power and ensure that Development Secretary will be visiting the region later anyone responsible for abuses in Libya will be held to this week to assess the situation on the ground for himself. account. North Africa and the wider Middle East are now at With respect to all these actions, Britain is taking a the epicentre of momentous events. History is sweeping lead. Over the weekend, we secured agreement for a through this region. Yes, we must deal with the immediate UN Security Council resolution, which we had drafted consequences, especially for British citizens caught up and which is unusually strong, unanimous and includes in these developments, but we must also be clear about 837 Libya and the Middle East[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Libya and the Middle East 838 what these developments mean and how Britain and Libya and the Middle East made by the Prime Minister. the West in general should respond. In many parts of I should like to ask him about four areas—the immediate the Arab world, hopes and aspirations which have safety of British nationals, the future of the Libyan been smothered for decades are stirring. People, especially regime, the wider Middle East, and the lessons learnt young people, are seeking their rights, and in the vast from this crisis. First, however, I should like to join the majority of cases they are doing so peacefully and Leader in expressing the deep and abiding gratitude of bravely. The parallels with what happened in Europe this side of the House to the members of the British in 1989 are not, of course, precise, but there is no Armed Forces, who have succeeded, with such doubt that many of those who are demanding change extraordinary courage and professionalism, in evacuating in the wider Middle East can take inspiration from so many of our own citizens, and those of many other other peaceful movements for change, including the countries, from Libya over the past week. These brave velvet revolutions in central and eastern Europe or the men and women are a credit to our nation. I also add peaceful transition to democracy in Muslim countries my thanks to the Foreign Office staff on the ground in like Indonesia. Of course there have been many Libya for their efforts. disappointments in the past, but those of us who Our first concern must always be the safety of our believe in democracy and open societies should be own people. For obvious operational and security clear: this is a precious moment of opportunity. reasons, I would not expect the Leader to discuss any While it is not for us to dictate how each country future operations; but can he assure the House that all should meet the aspirations of its people, we must not contingencies continue to be looked at in relation to remain silent in our belief that freedom and the rule of any remaining UK citizens stranded against their will? law are what best guarantee human progress and Given the closure of the British embassy on Saturday, economic success. Freedom of expression, a free press, can he reassure us that everything is still being done to freedom of assembly, the right to demonstrate keep in close contact with those citizens who remain peacefully—these are basic rights, and they are as and tell us what means of communication are available much the rights of people in Tahrir Square as Trafalgar to them? Square. They are not British or western values but the values of human beings everywhere; so we need to On the question of Libya’s political future, I think take this opportunity to look again at our entire that the whole House will endorse the view, publicly relationship with this region, at the billions of euros of expressed by the Prime Minister today, that the only EU funds, at our trade relationship and at our cultural acceptable future is one without Colonel Gaddafi and ties. We need to be much clearer and tougher in his regime. We welcome what the Leader of the House linking our development assistance to real progress in says about a possible no-fly zone. We also welcome the promoting more open and plural societies, and we international isolation of Colonel Gaddafi expressed need to dispense once and for all with the outdated in UN Security Council Resolution 1970, including notion that democracy has no place in the Arab world. sanctions, an arms embargo and a decision to refer the Too often in the past, we have made a false choice killing of protestors to the International Criminal between so-called stability on the one hand and reform Court. The resolution imposes travel bans for 17 Gaddafi and openness on the other. As recent events have loyalists and asset freezes on six of those individuals. confirmed, denying people their basic rights does not Do the Government think that the asset freezes go preserve stability, rather the reverse. We should be clear wide enough in covering all those beyond Colonel too that now is not the time to park the Middle East Gaddafi’s immediate family who have made the decision peace process, quite the opposite. This is a problem that to stand with him? Will the Government make full use is long overdue for resolution, and we should use of the provision in paragraph 23 of the resolution to developments in the region to drive forward progress, nominate additional regime members who should be not hold it up. In short, reform, not repression, is the targeted by travel bans and asset freezes? way to lasting stability. No one pretends that democracy On the human rights situation, there is clearly a and open societies can be built overnight. Democracy growing humanitarian crisis on the Tunisian and Egyptian is the work of patient craftsmanship, and it takes time, borders. On these Benches, we welcome the Statement’s as we know from our own history, to put its building points on British action to help the humanitarian blocks in place. What is happening in the wider Middle assistance to displaced migrant workers, and we look East is one of those once in a generation opportunities, forward to the report later this week on the visit of the a moment when history turns a page. That next page is International Development Secretary. I understand not yet written. It falls to all of us to seize this chance that one of the most pressing needs identified by the to fashion a better future for this region, to build a Tunisian Government is transport for displaced workers better relationship between our peoples and to make a from Libya who wish to return to their own country. new start. As the inspiring opposition leaders I met in May I ask the Leader of the House to draw this to the Tahrir Square said to me last week, ‘we now have the attention of the Secretary of State for International opportunity of achieving freedoms that you in Britain Development for his consideration during his visit to take for granted’. I am determined that Britain will the region this week? not let them down, and I commend this Statement to the House”. I turn to events beyond Libya, in the wider region. The events now unfolding across the Middle East are as significant as the revolutions that liberated eastern 5.47 pm Europe in 1989, as the Statement says. Our response to Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I thank the them needs to be equally ambitious. There is a popular Leader of the House for repeating the Statement on will in many of these countries for democratic reform. 839 Libya and the Middle East[LORDS] Libya and the Middle East 840

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] share with the House the wider lessons that have been This movement is in line with the values that we share, learnt on the Benches opposite about the running of and the stability promised by the undemocratic regimes the Government? in many cases has turned out to be hollow. Does the I think that the whole country has now, thankfully, Leader of the House therefore agree that there must seen the scale of response that can be mobilised to be no question but that our hopes—indeed, our help our citizens, and we are grateful. However, can interests—lie unequivocally with those demanding the Government promise that British nationals abroad economic and political reform? in future will not be let down as they were by the chaos Does the Leader agree that we need to build a and incompetence of early last week? strategic response, including closer economic ties, support The Statement mentions the crucial role played by for civil society and institution building? However, HMS “Cumberland” in the evacuation of British and does he agree that, in order to do so, we have to foreign nationals. I was in Plymouth myself on Saturday embrace closer contact with civil society, including and the citizens in Plymouth were immensely proud of academic institutions and non-governmental organisations what that ship was doing. Can the Leader give the committed to building a democratic future for their House a clear assurance that the defence cuts currently citizens? In respect of that aim, does he agree that full planned will not in future preclude such vital rescue support should be given to the work of bodies such as tasks for our citizens caught up in violence overseas? the British Council and the Westminster Foundation Is the Leader satisfied with the way in which the for Democracy, both of which have carried out important warden system has worked? There have been reports work in this area over the past few years? that some of those working in the oilfields have found Does the Leader concede that while there is much it very difficult—for some, impossible—to make contact that we can and should do bilaterally, real progress with our consuls or with the embassy. I would welcome will require sustained will and effort at a multilateral the opportunity to raise one or two of these issues level, including via the European Union? Can he tell later with the Leader of the House on Privy Council the House whether the negotiations for an EU-Libya terms, if he thought it were appropriate. association agreement on both free trade and human These are questions which need to be the subject of rights have been suspended? Libya is a member of thorough investigation and consideration. Given the both the Arab League and the African Union. Can the volatile nature of the position, not just in Libya, but Leader say what efforts the Government have made throughout the region, this needs to be carried out with the countries of both organisations to bring rapidly. We all hope that the levels of violence that we pressure to bear on the current Libyan Government have seen in Libya will not be repeated there or elsewhere against the violence that we have seen? Does he also in the region, but there are signs of unrest in other agree with these Benches that it would be a tragedy if countries in the area. British nationals working and in this moment of change the opportunity was not living in the region need to be confident that their grasped to make progress on the issue of Israel/Palestine? Government and their country have both the capacity I therefore give the support of these Benches to the and the will to assist them, including bringing them Government’s calls for the rapid resumption of talks home safely should the need to do so arise. between Israel and the Palestinians, and to the Government’s decision to support the recent UN Security Finally, will the Leader give a commitment to this Council resolution on these settlements. Can he say House that when these inquiries and considerations what steps the UK will now be taking to get negotiations are completed, he will come back to your Lordships’ moving again? On the question of arms sales, can the House to report on both the findings and the lessons Leader confirm that the Government will work with learnt for the future? EU partners to strengthen the guidelines and their operation? 5.55 pm Finally, I should like to ask about the lessons to be learnt from the immediate crisis response during the Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I thank the noble past week. Many Members of your Lordships’ House, Baroness for her response, and I am largely in agreement on all Benches, have in recent days either been aware with much of what she said. I will try to answer the of or had close experience of people who have been questions that she raised, and I will write to her about deeply anxious about family members, friends, colleagues those that I do not manage to deal with this afternoon. or others stranded in Libya. I add our thanks to those I thank her for the tribute that she gave to the Armed expressed by the Prime Minister to the Maltese Prime Forces and others who have worked immensely hard Minister for the evacuation of British nationals and during these difficult few days, including those in the everything else that he is doing to assist. However, FCO. does the Leader accept that the Foreign Office should The safety of UK citizens is paramount to the have done more, as other countries did, to ensure that Government, as the noble Baroness would expect. She planes were on the ground in Libya on Tuesday, asked specifically, since the embassy has closed, about rather than late on Wednesday night, to evacuate our the steps that we are taking to keep in touch with those citizens? Can he explain why this happened? Given the who are in the country. We are working hard to keep in scale of the emergency and the transparent need for touch with them, and we are reviewing various options co-ordination across government, do the Government to assist those who wish to leave. However, as the now agree that the emergency committee, COBRA, noble Baroness herself pointed out quite rightly, it should have been convened earlier than Thursday? would be inappropriate for me to speculate on what Can he explain why this did not happen? Can he also those options might be or to go into the detail of 841 Libya and the Middle East[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Libya and the Middle East 842 potential operations. Technology certainly exists in a We put a consular rapid deployment team into number of ways for British nationals in Libya to Tripoli on Tuesday, 22 February to assist with the contact the Government. There are phone lines that evacuation. We also deployed five rapid deployment are manned 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. There is, of teams totalling nearly 30 extra staff from the FCO. course, Skype, and there is an efficient tweeting system Those are the people who have done such a magnificent to send information out to people who would like to job in getting British nationals on planes in the horrific be kept informed. and dangerous circumstances at the airport. The The noble Baroness raised the issue of the Security Australian team arrived on Friday and the Canadians Council resolution. I agree with her that this was an on Tuesday from Egypt. In any action of this kind—in extremely important resolution, one which I believe any mission that comes out of nowhere—there are will make a substantial difference. She asked whether always lessons to be learnt. There will be a review and the asset freeze goes far enough and whether we would we will have to learn whatever lessons there are. But I seek to extend it. The answer to that is yes; if we felt am confident that the FCO reacted quickly and was that it was necessary to do so, then we would. It is very prepared for this. One of the signs of that was the important that this asset freeze is seen to be as effective relative success of the operation that took place. as possible so as to maximise the pressure on the leadership in Libya, who need to understand that the 6.02 pm rest of the civilised world will not put up with the kind Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, from of internal violence that we have seen over the past these Benches, I share in the tributes that have been few days. paid to our Diplomatic Service and armed services in I very much welcome the visit of my right honourable helping to evacuate our citizens. Several noble Lords friend the Secretary of State for International want to speak and I will be brief. Development, who hopes to visit the area later on this I congratulate the Prime Minister on securing week. Of course we will report back to Parliament on Resolution 1970 through the Security Council. Do the his visit. Government see it in the context of the broader responsibility to protect? I speak specifically about the The displaced migrant workers leaving Libya and sentiments in the Statement about the no-fly zone. seeking to find their own way home are another important Will my noble friend reassure us that preparations are issue. I know that the department is well aware of it advancing? We know from the barbarous nature of and that substantial groups of officials are at the this regime that we may well have to intervene on the border posts offering advice to try to get them home. responsibility to protect to take those minimal measures The noble Baroness asked about the significance of implied in a no-fly zone. I wonder whether we will be the wider issues. Nobody seeing this extraordinary, prepared to do that as part of a framework outside of rapid development throughout north Africa over the the UN Security Council if we are not able to achieve past few weeks can fail to be amazed at the speed and agreement there. the comprehensive nature of the changes taking place. On the broader sentiments on democracy, this is Of course we need to have a strategic response, and we such a significant Statement from a UK Government: need a response at almost every level, as the noble I do not believe that I have seen one in my 25 years of Baroness pointed out, including with elements of civil trying to think about democracy in the Middle East. society in these countries. I am glad to say that we have Will my noble friend reassure us that with the Westminster made wide-ranging contacts with civil society. We Foundation for Democracy and through all the other have always had them to some extent, and rightly so. work that the Government will do with civil society The Foreign Secretary met some of these contacts on institutions they will bear in mind that women in the his recent visit to the region earlier this month, as well Middle East, as elsewhere, comprise the majority of as meeting British Council colleagues who play such the citizens of that region? They have for far too long an important part in all of this. not had a voice in the governance of the region. Will We also look to other countries and other multinational this Government be steadfast in ensuring that women’s bodies to exert influence and pressure on what remains voices are heard in the reform process going forward? of the Libyan Government. We should leave no stone unturned in making the Libyan Government understand Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I thank my noble that the best way forward for them is to leave office friend for her comments. On the no-fly zone, there are and to hand it over as peacefully as possible. no details at present and there will not be until we have The noble Baroness finished with one or two comments had discussions with various allies about the feasibility about the role of the Foreign Office. Having looked at and speed with which it can be put up and about what has been done, I do not share the view that the compliance with other international organisations to Foreign Office should have done very much more very make sure that everything we do is entirely legal. But much more quickly. The Foreign and Commonwealth the preparations continue, and it is important that Office has long been a member of the Non-combatant they should. Evacuations Operations—a planning group which is On the organisations that support democracy such run by the MoD and the structure that led the joint as the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, I can planning for the mixed evacuation in Libya. Every confirm that in the current year the budget has been crisis is different. Libya is different from Egypt and increased. There is nothing I can possibly add to what both are different from the 2006 evacuation from my noble friend said about the importance of women Lebanon. The NEO model is a flexible response to in politics, particularly in some of these countries. It is that reality. self-evidently true. 843 Libya and the Middle East[LORDS] Libya and the Middle East 844

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, the Leader of question was about the role of young people, the the House referred to the Government having revoked proportion of whom as a population appears to be far Colonel Gaddafi’s immunity as head of state. Can he greater in some of these countries than in Europe. tell us a little more about how that has been done? Will To the specific question on whether discussions are the revocation operate retrospectively and have any ongoing with oil producers, particularly OPEC, the other Governments taken the same step? It sounds like answer is yes, and they will continue. There are no easy a sound step if it can be done and perhaps other answers to what the noble Baroness called her mundane Governments should be encouraged to do the same. question, but we are very much aware of them. The decisions, depending on how events pan out over Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, it has been done. I the next few weeks, will have a great bearing on the gather that it is a matter of state action that any success of the north African economy over the next Government can choose to take and the Government few years. have so chosen. I understand that other countries have done something similar, but I cannot name which Baroness Morris of Bolton: I thank my noble friend ones. As for the action being retrospective, I am not for repeating the Statement. I am delighted that the sure that it is important that it should be retrospective, Prime Minister visited Tahrir Square and leaders of but the noble and learned Lord may have been making the opposition in Egypt last week. While it is absolutely a clever legal point that at the moment I have missed. right that the peoples of the Middle East should determine their own futures, we have a lot to offer in Lord Lloyd of Berwick: No. institution-building and in developing the concept of stable and effective opposition. I am delighted that my noble friend said that the Westminster Foundation for Lord Strathclyde: I am glad to see that the noble Democracy will receive funding and that the British and learned Lord said no. Council and others will be encouraged to work with Again, it is part of putting pressure on the regime civil society. However, there are a number of opposition and senior supporters of the regime including looking leaders in Arab countries who have not had the luxury at the role of the International Criminal Court. It of being able to travel here and who would like to should complete its investigations so that we can bring come to visit different political parties and institutions. this truly appalling situation to an end as quickly as Will my noble friend do all that he can to facilitate that possible. as quickly as possible? That has to be in all of our interests.

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: My Lords, I am Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I agree with my noble grateful to the noble Lord for repeating the Statement friend Lady Morris. She is right when she talks about from the Prime Minister and I am glad that the institution-building and the role that we can play. That opportunity will be taken to learn lessons from the includes looking at the experience post-1989 and the procedures, particularly around the evacuation. If one building of democracy in central and eastern Europe. contrasts the evacuation from Libya with the evacuation Bodies such as the Westminster Foundation for just a couple of years ago from Lebanon, it was at a Democracy play a very important part. As I said in much slower pace. However, I have a much more response to the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, it is mundane, long-term question. For the courageous partly about building these institutions and partly young people that we have seen throughout the region about rebuilding their economies. The two very often to reach their aspirations, there will have to be a sound go hand in hand, and we should be looking at the two economy throughout that region. With the turbulence in making sure that we can bring all of this to a surrounding events of the past couple of weeks, we successful conclusion. have seen oil prices rising to $120 a barrel. That has a direct impact on this economy and on the fragile Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, I thank economies of the developing world. the noble Lord for bringing the Statement to the I am aware that the structures exist to bring together House. I congratulate the Government and our security oil producers and consumers both within and outwith services on how they have worked effectively together OPEC to discuss the operation of oil markets. Will the so that this operation has been completed without Leader of the House indicate whether there has been casualties. I suggest that perhaps the Government an opportunity to begin those discussions? If we do would do well to look at their relationship with the not secure stability in oil markets in the Middle East, press, who appear to have been pre-emptive and working many of these courageous young people will experience on a minimal amount of information when they evoked continuing poverty, and such poverty of aspiration is the initial criticism of the operation. what brought them onto the streets in the first place. It is important that civilian firms employing British civilians overseas keep a proper record of who they Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the noble Baroness employ and where they are employed. If they already did not ask a mundane question. It is a crucial one and do so, was that information available as quickly as it goes to the heart of how the situation will develop should have been to the Government? I should be possibly over the next few months but certainly over grateful if the Minister could answer those two questions. the course of the next few years. The key is about the Lastly, this House should and does acknowledge the economy in these countries. As the noble Baroness gratitude due to our Turkish friends and allies, who pointed out, a lot of that is dependent on the price of have once again stepped into the breach to support us oil and how it is managed. The second part of her at this difficult time. 845 Libya and the Middle East[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Libya and the Middle East 846

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, perhaps I may say these people and to evacuate their own workers to how grateful we are for Turkish help in this developing safety? Presumably they have resources at their disposal crisis. They have now taken over the role of representing to help that effort. Secondly, although I welcome my the United Kingdom in Libya. I thank the noble Lord, noble friend’s comments and those of the Prime Minister Lord Maginnis, for what he said about the role of the about the outdated notion that democracy has no Armed Forces, the Government, and the security services, place in the Arab world, which has clearly been in this instance. I will not entirely follow him down the demonstrated now to have been a myth, what lessons route of overly criticising the press, but it is certainly have been learnt specifically regarding previous policies true, in planning these operations, that they are delicate, and the previous Government’s policies in arming and they need to be kept secret, there are enormously cosying up to dictators who oppress their own people? important elements of security, and our very free and open society is open to everyone, including Libyan Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I agree with my noble armed forces. I hope that, over time, people will look friend on the cause, which we have seen on our television back and see this process as having been rather more screens, of people fighting for freedom and for democracy, successful than was perhaps perceived at the end of but most of all for choice and for change and to last week. remove these old regimes that have oppressed their The noble Lord asked a totally reasonable question people for so long. On the first question on UK about the amount of information that was made available nationals, I mentioned to the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, on the whereabouts of individual employees. We are some of the role undertaken by UK companies. Generally dealing with an area in the desert which is something speaking, there has been a lot of support from UK like four times the size of the United Kingdom and I companies in helping the Government to trace the understand that some of the information we received employees, so that has on the whole been a reasonably was not as good as we would have wanted. No doubt good story. that is one of the lessons we shall all learn. As to the second question about cosying up to dictators, of course I agree with my noble friend. Lord Gilbert: My Lords, will the Government make However, successive British Governments cannot always sure that any no-fly zone encompasses both rotary-wing pick and choose the kind of Governments that countries and fixed-wing aircraft? This is a very obvious thing have chosen for themselves or have had imposed on which has been overlooked occasionally in the past. I them. At different times, different Governments will have confidence that Her Majesty’s Government have work in different ways with all sorts of people, some of been canvassing friendly countries as to who would whom are deeply unsavoury. wish to join in the enforcement of any no-fly zone. Can the noble Lord tell us how many positive answers Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords, I thank the Minister he has had—I am not asking him to identify the for repeating the Statement. He has rightly acknowledged individual countries—and have those answers come the considerable contribution of the Armed Forces in from states that are actually in a position to contribute this, and it is a great regret to me that they were not to the enforcement of a no-fly zone, particularly with brought in earlier, as happened with the French and respect to possession of the right sort of air assets, German air forces, which arrived in Tripoli at the attitudes, and all the other ingredients that are necessary beginning of last week. to take part in that sort of activity? Bearing in mind that some of the assets used on this occasion are about to be scrapped and that others Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the noble Lord is have already gone that could be used on similar occasions, entirely right, and he should not shrink from stating has not the time come for the Government to consider the obvious, that we should look carefully at whether a some quantitative easing of the defence budget? no-fly zone should ban both rotary-wing and fixed-wing aircraft. The rest of his questions are entirely fair, but Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I understand exactly I am not able to help him with them at the moment. why the noble and gallant Lord has asked the question, Work is ongoing with allies and other multinational and the way in which he did so. We believe that, even organisations to see how a no-fly zone could be best with the strains on the MoD budget, we still have the put into effect and policed. Only when the Government capability to carry out the evacuation process that has have that information available will we be able to make been carried out over the past few days. it public. Lord Davies of Coity: My Lords, I, too, express Baroness Hussein-Ece: My Lords, I thank the Leader appreciation for the Statement made by the Leader of of the House very much. This Statement will go a long the House, repeating what the Prime Minister said. I way and will be welcomed by the many brave people am also pleased with the evacuation measures that we have seen on our television screens and read about, have been taken. However, early on in this crisis, who are demonstrating and fighting for democracy millions of British people saw the Foreign Secretary and for their freedom. I think it is going to improve on the television saying that Colonel Gaddafi, the the reputation of this country tremendously in those tyrant of this issue, was in Venezuela. Have the places. I should like to ask two questions. First, specifically Government made any assessment of the impact that about the British nationals who are still scattered and that incorrect statement has had on the British public? missing, or who have not been located, in the oilfields in the desert, what contribution has been made by the Lord Strathclyde: No, my Lords, and I think that it oil companies that they work for to help to locate would be impossible to do so. 847 Libya and the Middle East[LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 848

Lord Marlesford: My Lords, does my noble friend Even if the Government did not make a proper agree that the defection of senior Libyan diplomats assessment of the value of RDAs, an independent from around the world may prove to have been a evaluation by PwC found that since their inception significant component in the removal of Gaddafi? RDAs helped to create thousands and thousands of Furthermore, in the context of the withdrawal of the jobs, well in excess of their target; assisted nearly British diplomatic mission from Tripoli, is there any 57,000 businesses—again, well in excess of their target; news on what is happening to the Libyan embassy in enabled £5.7 billion of funding to be levered in from London? the public and private sectors; and created over 8,500 new businesses. The evaluation also demonstrated that every Lord Strathclyde: No, my Lords, there is no news pound spent by RDAs added approximately £4.50 to on the embassy in London. But my noble friend is the regional economy. Other strengths of the RDA right that the defection of senior Libyan diplomats, model include the ability to pursue a coherent vision particularly at the United Nations, was a signal to for the region that could be turned into a strategy for many others that this regime had come to an end. That economic development and investment. is part of the combined exerted pressure that we wish So why are RDAs being dismantled with no credible to see to encourage more defections and bring this alternatives? I am sure that the Minister will tell me regime to an end as quickly as possible. that they are being replaced by local economic partnerships, which will see business and civic leaders Public Bodies Bill [HL] work together to bring economic development, shifting power away from central government towards local Committee (7th Day) (Continued) communities, which really understand the barriers to growth. But it is not the case that all the RDAs are 6.23 pm being localised. Some functions, such as inward investment, innovation, key sector development and Amendment 48 not moved. response to economic shocks are going to be transferred to the national level. Inward investment is one of the real big successes of RDAs, offering one-stop shops in Amendment 49 a region, with fantastic results—for example, Toyota Moved by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon in Derby or Nissan in the north-east. So how does 49: Schedule 1, page 17, leave out lines 15 to 22 centralising such a function square with the much-vaunted localism agenda? Are the Government really committed Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, it is clear to devolving powers and functions when there is clear from the amendment that these Benches seek to remove evidence that they are currently being well managed at RDAs from Schedule 1, which legally enables their regional level? I am more than a little confused about abolition. This debate on the chaotic and misguided the role of regional government offices, and would be abolition of RDAs announced by ministerial fiat comes grateful if the Minister could help me. Is it true that at a time when there is clear evidence that economic Mr Cable is reversing elements of Mr Pickles’s Maoist growth has flat-lined and that the economic recovery revolution by rebuilding parts of the regional infrastructure has ground to a halt. Now, more than ever, we need that were scrapped last summer? I very much hope the regions to be motors of economic growth in our that six regional government offices are being reinstated country, instead of which the RDAs, which provide and that that will foreshadow other changes in regional the architecture for regional economic development, policy. are being dismantled. I think that it will be clear from debates later this As we have heard at Second Reading and throughout afternoon that some RDAs are more effective than this Committee stage, the Conservative-led Government others and that there are weaknesses as well as great have failed to follow a satisfactory process or procedure strengths, but just because reform or change is necessary for evaluating the efficiency and effectiveness of the in some areas, why take the radical step of abolition, bodies scheduled for abolition. The rushed decision- especially when it is apparent that the LEPs will not be making and lack of consultation is nowhere more able to provide the same impetus for regional development blatantly obvious than with the abolition of the RDAs. as the RDAs? In many areas of the country, there are The White Paper outlining the Government’s plans simply no local economic partnerships; I think especially came after the decision to abolish RDAs had been of my own region of the south-west. Could the Minister announced, and it was a real surprise to these Benches update us on how many LEPs have been approved and to see their inclusion in Schedule 1. The House of where the gaps are? How are the gaps going to be Commons Public Administration Committee concluded filled? It would be, or should be, unthinkable at any that the Government did not consult properly on their time, but especially when economic growth must be proposals. It welcomed the Government’s agreement the means to kick-start and sustain recovery, that any to allow for further consultations and said that it part of the country should be without proper regional expected, development. “these consultations to have real effect on the outcome of the review; even if this means reversing decisions that have already There are many grey areas relating to funding. Can been made”. the Minister confirm that it could cost as much as What consultations have taken place since the abolition £1.4 billion to wind down RDAs and complete existing of RDAs was announced, and how have the conclusions programmes? Could he also confirm that funding of those consultations been taken into account? from the regional growth fund will amount to £1.4 billion 849 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 850 over three years, and that that is nowhere near the sum Lord Beecham: My Lords, in the coalition lexicon, given to RDAs? If that is true, the money available is there is a six-letter word missing: it is the word “region”. not adequate, and it suggests that the Government do It has been banished by Mr Pickles, and the use of it not take regional growth seriously enough. I also has been banished from PCTs by the Department of wonder why the Government are approving only projects Health. Of course it is true, as my noble friend Lady based on short-term job creation for the first £250 million Royall has implied, that there is a variable geometry of funding from the regional growth fund. Job creation about regions. They are not all the same: some are is critical, of course, but what about strategic, long-term regarded as too big—one thinks perhaps of the south-east, projects, which are essential for the economic well-being where a predecessor television programme to “Strictly of any region? I would suggest that, by focusing on Come Dancing” was called “Come Dancing”. Some short-term job creation, the Government are being of your Lordships may recall that then “Home Counties short-sighted, neglecting the potential for long-term North” and “Home Counties South” were regarded as economic growth as well as jobs. appropriate areas. Perhaps that might have been better than a single RDA for the south-east. Nevertheless, 6.30 pm many of the RDAs have performed extremely well. If there were uncertainty about some of them, the question Then there is the question of land and property arises: why abolish all when there may be a very strong assets that are currently owned by the RDAs. Given case for keeping some, if not all? the significant value of many of these assets and their role in future growth and development, I wonder what Nearly a year ago, Vincent Cable came to the the Government are proposing to do with them. I north-east in his first few weeks as Secretary of State, would be grateful for reassurance from the Minister and he declared his belief that the north-east was, that they will not be disposed of in a fire sale, with “one region where business support through a regional agency is little regard for the regional and strategic importance both necessary and appreciated”. of many of the sites held. These assets should be He was right about that, but he subsequently went on retained and used locally to drive economic growth to propose the abolition of that agency. In any case, he and recovery. understates the case. Many of the successes associated with RDAs are a consequence of the expertise and experience of the Consider the report on the RDAs from the Select staff who have played a pivotal role in the agencies. I Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills. It found am concerned about the staff themselves, but also evidence of effective intervention in the face of economic about the body of knowledge they have built up. shocks and strongly endorsed the RDAs’ role because What are the Government doing to minimise the they, number of redundancies which will occur with “improved the understanding of local economies and their connections the abolition of RDAs? How will they ensure that the with businesses … They were also able to catalyse delivery of knowledge, skills, experience and expertise are not infrastructure … and took a strategic approach to planning going to be lost? decisions”. My final question relates to funding from the European It thought that some RDAs were, perhaps, too big to Regional Development Fund. Will the Minister confirm profit from local engagement, but it made it clear that, that the Government intend to centralise the delivery “policies were far from being applied on a blanket basis within of ERDF funding into the DCLG? If so, it would regions”. appear that LEPs will be excluded and that the Interestingly, the CBI recorded 66 per cent support management of the funds will no longer have local for continuing regional co-ordination via the LEPs, if and regional input, leadership and direction, with the they were to be the new mechanism—and especially risk that it will fail to reflect the priorities of the strong support in the Midlands and the north. Even in regions. Will he also confirm that the European areas where the number of Local Enterprise Partnerships Commission has expressed concern about the changes was great, it saw the need for an overarching structure. caused by the abolition of RDAs, and say whether the The Select Committee recommended that regional £1.5 billion of funding is at risk? groupings should be recognised where a clear wish was It appears that by dismantling RDAs, the Government expressed. It also expressed a concern that inward are creating uncertainty and failing to support strong investment and tackling economic shocks would be and credible organisations to replace them. At present, inadequate without local knowledge and support, as LEPs simply do not have the powers or resources to my noble friend has said, when functions were translated drive jobs or growth in our regions. It is widely recognised to Whitehall. This has been compounded by the proposed that LEP funding will not be guaranteed, and that abolition of Government Offices for the Regions providing they will certainly not have any start-up or core funding. critical intelligence and contact from within the regions The regional growth fund has already been oversubscribed to government. Accordingly, the Select Committee in its first round, meaning that many strong bids that recommended that government should devolve powers have already attracted private sector support look set to regional structures where there was clear evidence to miss out because the Government are not prepared of good management of resources. to invest in private sector growth. This does not bode well for regional growth and development, and I would A back-handed compliment was paid to the urge the Government to think again—to reconsider Government’s policy from one witness to the Select the fine record of RDAs and the huge contribution Committee, who said: they have made to the regions and the country as a “One good thing that the Westminster Government has done whole. I beg to move. is to abolish regional development agencies in England”, 851 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 852

[LORD BEECHAM] arise in relation to intellectual property. There are no removing significant competition from the market. fewer than seven pages on that in the submission, That witness was Dr Brian Gibbons, who is Minister including an interestingly little-known scheme called for Economic Development in the Welsh Assembly. JEREMIE, which is spelt somewhat differently from He clearly took the view—indeed he expressed it—that the convention. It is to do with finance for business the Government’s decision presented Wales with a and has been extremely successful in the north-east. significant opportunity at the expense of the English What we have here is really an irony.This Government, regions. above all, look to the private sector to lead and to The Federation of Small Businesses said that the make good the deficiencies in the economy. The RDAs, local enterprise partnerships should have the capacity which are about to abolish, are heavily engaged with to address all the issues impacting on development, the private sector. They are private-sector-led bodies, including transport, planning and housing at a strategic and yet they apparently cannot be trusted with economic level, tourism, the low carbon agenda and skills and development in the regions. training. But that long list begs the question of the The proposals in the Bill bear all the hallmarks of a scale of the organisation to carry out those functions rush to misjudgment, like so many of the measures and the resources it will need. The organisations that that the Government have brought forward. We have will take the place of the RDAs are the local enterprise seen examples this very day of second thoughts having partnerships and, as my noble friends have said, they occurred. I hope that the Government will listen to will not have responsibility for significant areas of their natural supporters, if you will, in the private policy including the ERDF. They will be expected to sector, in business and across parties in parts of the work with Government, whatever that is supposed to country; and will pause, reflect and reconsider proposals mean, on investment priorities, transport infrastructure, that threaten to damage the economic recovery that is the regional growth funds and getting the jobless back essential but seriously at risk in many regions. to work. Again, there is the question of scale: you will have, as we have in the north-east, at least two Lord Shipley: My Lords, for much of the period organisations, perhaps with an overarching body as since the Second World War—and indeed before— well. In other parts of the country there are none, in Governments have pursued some form of English some there are numerous: how will these work together regional policy. There have been several initiatives: at the strategic level as opposed to the very local level? regional Ministers in some or all regions; development Of course, as my noble friend has pointed out, the corporations; development companies; and a variety funding is very limited: £1.4 billion over three years is of government office structures, so that Whitehall very little more than what the Secretary of State could be represented properly across all parts of England. himself described as the “trifling” figure—I think that Policies have been chopped and changed, but they was the word—of £1 billion that was originally proposed. have been clarified in recent years—first by the creation The committee was also concerned about the non-so-local of the development agencies in the English regions, knowledge, about the assets and about the potential and secondly by the strengthening of government for a massive success or failure if the debts were not offices so that all Whitehall departments were housed adequately resources. Of course, they are not being in a single government office. The system was far from resourced: they will have no funding and no powers. perfect and led to some unnecessary bureaucracy. As I have said previously in this Chamber, they are in There was a lack of democratic accountability within danger of being penniless, powerless and pointless. the regions. However, the system had one overriding That is a real risk. virtue; it was regionally based and gave a clear and There are serious questions to be asked about assets. firm focus for each region in England that had previously The Government’s plan is for the assets to be used to been lacking. pursue economic development benefits through Some regions did not like the structure because transferring assets to appropriate hosts. They qualify they did not feel that their region really existed as an that promise, which on the face of it looks reasonable, entity. The south-east is the most obvious example. by reference to the need to deliver maximum value on Others, such as parts of the south-west, felt distant public sector investment in the context of deficit reduction. from their RDA and government office. Perhaps it was There is therefore a clear implication that the assets a mistake by the previous Government to create an will be realised to meet that agenda. There is also a RDA in each region. Indeed, it is hard to see, in terms clear implication that that might lead to early disposal. of strategic regeneration, why the south-east needed a I have not had the advantage of reading the entire development agency at all. However, that is history. text because Wikipedia has not yet published it. I have What is not history is the decision to abolish all seen only a redacted copy of the submission made by English RDAs. One North East, the agency with which I am most In the north, people have identified with their RDA familiar, on the proposal for assets disposal. Interestingly, to a much greater extent than in the south. Maybe this it is proposed to sell some at market value to local is a function of the northern regions being further authorities. How local authorities are supposed to from London and the levers of power. It also reflects fund the acquisition of those assets in the present the greater needs of those regions, which require circumstances is beyond me. Some will eventually be government intervention for the ultimate benefit of put on the market for open market disposal, with an the UK as a whole. The decision to abolish the RDAs interim period of management by local authorities. and government offices in the south-east may have Again, at a time of local authority cuts, where will the been broadly popular but it is most certainly not a capacity exist to manage this estate? Similar difficulties popular decision in my own region—the north-east. I 853 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 854 declare my interest as a board member of One North had learnt that lesson many years ago. No doubt local East since 2005. There is a constitutional issue here, enterprise partnerships will give a focus to regeneration, too. Why do Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and but since they cover all of England they do not have a London have substantial devolved powers, some of responsibility for assisting the weaker local economies, which are set to increase, at the very same time that the and neither do they have any central government money. English regions are being further centralised within In practice, this is the last operational year for our London-based structures? RDAs. The Government should have paused for thought for longer than they did before deciding to cull them. 6.45 pm The process that has been followed, and the absence of The accusations against the RDAs were that they any clear regional structural policy behind it, is a matter wasted money, competed with each other in, for example, of serious regret, from which I hope we can yet learn. tourism and inward investment, and had bloated staffing establishments with expenses systems that were open Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top: My Lords, I follow to abuse. Like all generalisations, such conclusions are my noble friends Lord Beecham and Lord Shipley. exceedingly dangerous. The vast majority did not run Newcastle has spoken from both sides of the House bloated staffing structures or see abuse of expenses today. I see that the noble Lord, Lord Bates, is waiting systems. Most did not compete directly with other to represent the southern part of our region. I very RDAs, and all were subject to audit by the National much represent the middle of the region but also, I Audit Office. All worked with the single purpose of hope, the region as a whole. The north-east is a region generating economic growth in their regions. All can and feels itself to be a region. It has a sense of identity point to success stories that would not have been and believes, partly because it is so near Scotland, that achieved without an RDA. We are now in a position it has to fight both to maintain that identity—of where Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and London which we are very proud—and to make the best of the can spend money on tourism, for example, but the enormous talent that is in the region. English regions with which they compete cannot. This Much government policy over the past 40 years has cannot be right. recognised that there is talent there and that the north-east My noble friend Lord Beecham reminded us that laid the bedrock for much of the development of this the Business Secretary admitted publicly a few months country. If you think about the Industrial Revolution ago that the process of abolishing the RDAs had been and the contribution that the north-east made then a bit “Maoist”. I agree with him. It was done without and in subsequent years to the growth of the economy any attempt to evaluate the sustainable achievements across the nation, it was very important. As those of each RDA and whether they had delivered value prime industries began to decline, a regional voice, for money in long-term jobs growth. The decision-making and action supported by central government, were on RDAs fell foul of the unhelpful fact that the seen as important to begin to rebuild. This case was DCLG had been funding the lion’s share of RDAs, being made very loudly before I became a Member of with BIS being very much the minority financial partner, the other House. Indeed, when I did become a Member even though BIS was the responsible Whitehall of the other House, my then neighbour and now my department. This has added to the confusion over who noble friend Lord Radice proposed a Private Member’s was responsible for what. Bill, which several of us supported, to enable the Can further sustainable jobs be delivered without north-east to have a regional body that would take an RDA structure in England? Can redistribution to strategic decisions with government support. Of course, the poorer regions and those more dependent on the that was in the era of the Government run by the public sector be achieved, too? While the creation of a noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, so the Government of regional growth fund, which has £1.4 billion to commit the day saw the point and the need, and they responded, over three years, is designed to just that, it has less to eventually, to the efforts made by my noble friend and spend than the RDAs had. I declare an interest again others across the board. as a member of the growth fund’s advisory board. The north-east is parochial, but it is not sectarian. When account is taken of the new likely geographical We do not want to get into a situation in which one spend and the fund’s clear remit to generate sustainable group fights another within the region for whatever private sector jobs, it will certainly be able to make a scraps are around. We have always accepted the difference. I welcome that. However, it cannot be the importance of trying to build the private sector because whole story. At the heart of the matter lies this it is true that at the moment we have too many public constitutional issue. I do not feel that sufficient thought sector jobs. Even though we increased the number of is currently being given to English regional policy. private sector jobs in recent years, it was by no means Simply abolishing our RDAs where they proved valuable, sufficient. That is still a huge job to be done in the making little attempt to save the good things they have north-east, but now we are losing the strategic means achieved, is a mistake. of doing it. I just ask the Government to think again. Not surprisingly, we now find that some Whitehall I accept that there have to be cutbacks in public departments are deciding that they must continue to spending, but it frightens me to see how much money employ staff outside London. I understand that some the RDA is having to spend on redundancy and run-down 20 per cent of One North East’s staff will now continue costs when that money ought to be put into economic working in the north-east for Whitehall departments. development. The rise in unemployment, particularly However, they will be split up to work in departmental among young people, is frightening. My generation silos—so much for joined-up working. We cannot run will regret that for many years to come, because we everything in England from Whitehall. I thought we thought we had got through it. We thought that we 855 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 856

[BARONESS ARMSTRONG OF HILL TOP] As a result, Romag, the glass company, was able to had got to the stage where we could promise young support the development of more charge points for people in the north-east prospects and opportunities, electric cars and to support the electric car makers in and that is beginning to fall off the edge again. They where they would be and how they would develop see redundancy payments and the struggle to get rid of their business in a network of hubs around the country. assets when they know that doing so at this time will All these ideas came out of the initiative of One North not bring in the return that we should be getting from East. I hope that the Minister will take the opportunity those assets. This is the moment for the Government to talk to Nissan about its support for One North East to think again about the north-east. and how important it thinks it has been in its continued The reaction to the Government’s announcement presence in the region and its ability to get the parent on 23 June was bewilderment, particularly, as my noble company to continue to invest in that factory in the friend Lord Beecham said, after the Secretary of State north-east, which is, as we know, the most productive for Business, Vince Cable, said on 3 June that, having car factory across Europe, if not the world. looked at things, he was convinced of the need for one It is very difficult to talk without emotion about the body across the north-east. It was therefore with north-east, a region that means so much to so many of bewilderment that the private sector, the regional chamber us and to try to get the Government to think again. of commerce and the regional CBI faced the prospect This does not mean, “You’ve got to put more money of months of, quite honestly, squabbling again about in”, but that the money that is going in has to be used what the LEPs should look like, how they should be in the most strategic way and must not be fragmented. formed and all that, when the key issues of the day It should not be used in a way that does not maintain were actually slipping out of anyone’s responsibility. the consensus with business, trade unions and local It was irresponsible of the Government to appoint authorities that we have had across the region for a new chair of the RDA on 3 June, and then, on many a long month and year. The Government are 23 June, to say that the organisation was being abolished. breaking that consensus, which is incredibly dangerous. One of the key businessmen of the region was being I ask them to think again. put in place to manage redundancies. It is nonsense. 7pm He should be managing inward investment; he should Lord Ramsbotham: I declare an interest: my son is be managing what possibly can be done with the the chairman of the North East Chamber of Commerce, manner in which the assets have been developed in the which the noble Baroness mentioned. I endorse everything north-east, with partners, to draw the best strategic that has been said by the noble Lords, Lord Beecham opportunities for the region. Instead, he is managing and Lord Shipley, and by the noble Baroness, Lady decline, which is a tragedy. There is no one who does Armstrong. Politically, people think of the north-east not accept that the Government will have to put in less as being divided by rivers. Economically, the north-east money this year, although they did with regard to One is divided between the rivers. Now, instead of having North East, and I hope that they recognise that from one regional development agency, which has been what my noble friend Lord Shipley has said. I looking over the whole of that area and easing that acknowledge, welcome and am thankful for his division, the Government are setting up local enterprise contribution both to the RDA and to the new body. partnerships that are separating the region. It seems to However, the new body—the national body—will not be madness. All that I can say, from the points of view have particular reserves for the north-east. It will that I have heard from everyone, is that there was not accept whatever bid comes from wherever. Therefore just confusion but anger up there after Mr Cable made we might do more to unbalance the economy in this his announcement. Having observed the situation, the country rather than address the need to rebalance the Government seemed to be prepared to listen to what economy in this country. people up there were saying and proving, but suddenly One North East was, according to all the independent that was all dashed, apparently in alliance with a audits, very successful in the number of jobs that it mantra that everything should be localised. created, the number of new businesses that it supported If there is one issue that should be borne in mind, it and the number of people it helped to get into is communications. The communications system in employment. I will talk about that in more detail at a the north-east is not all that good. There are not the later stage. The north-east has had a successful RDA. motorways or the means of connecting the various No one says that it achieved everything that we had areas. Why not? It is because, over the years, there has ambition for it to achieve, but it is one region in been all this local scrapping. Yes, bypasses have been England in which we know that progress was being built around areas and there have been local made, and we know that it makes sense to have a communications, but the region was never looked at as strategic body across the region. We are, after all, a a whole until there was an RDA. Until and unless you very small region, the smallest in the country. Its get the region to be looked at properly, you will not get success was therefore dependent on being able to be the communications that should be the hub of any strategic across the region. It had a plan for green jobs; future development. I join everyone who is begging it had been developing green policies in recent years. I that the north-east be, if necessary, taken as a separate know very well, from companies that I have talked to, area and looked at separately again, in order not to the work that One North East was able to do in throw away what has happened. pulling together that strategy and in making sure that one company worked with another in a way that Lord Bates: My Lords, in many ways, this debate developed each of their interests while working in a reflects the sense of where we are with the whole Bill, more coherent and strategic way across businesses. because we have heard speech after speech about the 857 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 858 north-east of England, which we all love dearly, pointing other regional development agencies around the country. out what an exceptional region it is and how it needs That was a mistake. There is a case for north-east special attention and help. People have been saying exceptionalism in these matters. I should have preferred that it had a regional development agency that performed the continuation of a single entity, but that has not better than any other and was adhered to and held in been possible. affection by the business community of the region. It In conclusion, we are entering a time when there is is a small region, with 2.6 million people. The Northwest a change of approach. An interesting study into Regional Development Agency, on the other hand, regionalism by the Smith Institute looked at a set of covers an area from the Scottish border to Cheshire. data covering a period between the peak before the That is not a homogeneous region to which people can recession hit and its trough. It showed that a recession feel an affinity. born of the financial services industry, which should There are different views on this. We are having this therefore have primarily impacted on the City of London, debate, but let us remember that there is an option in fact hit the regions of the country, such as the available to the local authorities and the business north-east, Yorkshire and the north-west, hardest. community of the north-east to have a single local That seemed to fly in the face of the argument that enterprise partnership for the whole of the region. regionalism would balance the national economy. That offer was put forward and I supported it, so that Regionalism was meant to give a little bit of emphasis there should be one voice for the north-east. However, and push to those regions that, because they were the local authorities, in their wisdom, could not agree peripheral to the centre, struggled in economic terms. on that. We therefore have this breakaway on Teesside. However, we were actually hit hardest. In fairness to Teesside, and given my credentials in the The north-east will have a good and positive future, north-east that I offer to this debate—I was born on not because of organisations and institutions, but Tyneside, represented a seat on Teesside and now live because of the quality of its entrepreneurs and businesses. on Wearside—I understand what the noble Lord, Lord The entire budget of One North East is only half as Ramsbotham, said about the region between the rivers. much as the amount by which Greggs increased its There are different perspectives. The people on Teesside turnover last year, in terms of investment in the region. felt strongly at the last general election that they had The company employs 18,000 people. The private been let down by the regional development agency. sector is doing it. Companies such as Sage are doing The closure of Corus TCP was a real issue. The people fantastically well. I was at the opening of a new felt that they wanted to reflect the fact that the economy facility for OneX in Teesside, which is now exporting and the process industry of the Tees valley made up a server capacity into Denmark through a new cable unique and discrete entity and that they might perform across the North Sea. There are some fantastic things better on their own. I disagreed with them, but they happening. took that decision, which was for them to take. It was It is worth remembering that the north-east is the on offer. only region in the country that exports more than it Perhaps I may offer this point of view. As well as imports. That is a great place to start, and we have to the sort of romance that we have heard about One have far greater confidence in our own ability. A good North East, let us remember—I am sure that my noble policy is the introduction for the first time of a difference friend Lord Shipley from the board can confirm this—that in national insurance contributions, with a preference its budget two years ago was £290 million. Under the for allowing people outside the south-east and London previous Government, that was to be cut this year to to benefit from lower tax rates. Personally, I would go £180 million. The idea that there was some sort of much further. There is a real case for reintroducing love-in and that somehow money was being poured enterprise zones across places such as the north-east. into the good north-east was not true. A cutting back In places such as Blyth, Easington and Middlesbrough, of the reach of that agency, and some may say its where there is no enterprise at all at present, you could effectiveness, was already in train. create enterprise zones under which businesses could be set up. It is also worth putting this on record. Other noble The opportunity was there for us to have a single Lords will also remember the time when I was Minister voice in the north-east, although it was not taken. for the north-east under the previous Conservative However, the prospects are good, but only because our Government. There were the Northern Development entrepreneurs and businessmen are good. Company and the Teesside and Tyne and Wear development corporations, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, referred. The development corporation Baroness Whitaker: I rise to speak to Amendment 55, for the north-east was fantastic and very well run leaving the north-east. The grounds for my amendment, under John Bridge, with George Russell as chairman— in contrast to the eloquent plea by my noble friend Ron Dearing was a previous chairman. These were Lady Armstrong, are not that every part of the South terrific ambassadors for the region. They brought in East England Development Agency should remain significant amounts of foreign direct investment; 75,000 exactly as it is now, but that, at present, without it, jobs were brought into the region during their time, there is no adequate support for some of the poorest although their organisation was very thin. They did parts of the south-east. I am thinking in particular of phenomenal work. Our reward for having one regional Newhaven, next to where I live, where over a quarter development agency, going head-to-head with the Welsh of households earn 60 per cent less than the national Development Agency and Scottish Enterprise in trying median income. Newhaven would hugely repay investment. to bid for projects, was that the incoming Labour It is poised to become the key commercial port in Government created seven competitors for us in the Sussex and 30 per cent of local companies are in the 859 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 860

[BARONESS WHITAKER] the size it is, it would always have been a separate manufacturing, construction and building sectors. But region. It has always had to choose whether to be its high street is withering away and its residents have tagged on to the north-east or the north-west. However, little spending power. that is not to say that in Lancashire, Cheshire, Merseyside The Government have proposed local enterprise and Greater Manchester in particular, and in south partnerships in place of the regional development Cumbria, people are not very clear that they are in the agencies, as we discussed earlier. But at the moment north-west, and they have an allegiance to it. I do not Lewes district, where Newhaven sits, is covered by an object to an attempt by the Government—if this is LEP for East Sussex, Kent and Essex. This is hopeless. what they have done—to rationalise our regional structures Newhaven has few links to the east. The travel-to-work and make them more efficient, more logical and more area is west towards Brighton, north to Gatwick and sensible. Crawley, and, for commuters, north-west to London. Perhaps I may talk for a minute about regional Unless Newhaven can go into the Coast to Capital structures in general in the north-west and about the LEP, there is little hope for the prosperity of the government office for the north-west. A close member hardworking and friendly people who live there. of my family had a job as a permanent temp in the There are acres of brownfield land designated for regional office in Manchester for the best part of a industrial and commercial use which will be of little year. This was a while back but not that far back. I do interest to an LEP focused on Hastings, Kent, Essex not want to breach lots of confidentialities concerning and the Thames Gateway. But it is all ripe for investment. what she did there—she had to sign the Official Secrets The town is well placed to provide work for the Act to work there and she asked me whether it was all Brighton area and there are promising signs that land right to sign it. However, I think I can mention one with planning permission for housing will soon be thing without having her hauled off to the Tower of developed. The port owners are actively pursuing London. She said to me, “You know when MPs and regeneration of the port, which again has few synergies people put questions down and ask questions of the with the east and north-east. Government?”. I replied, “Yes”, and she said, “Well, if You could argue—indeed, it has been argued—that they’re about transport, I have to deal with them, find SEEDA is too big and there could be other solutions out the answers and send them back to London”. I to the regional investment problem. But the worry is remind noble Lords that she was a temp. I thought that places such as Newhaven will simply drop out of about it and asked her what she meant by “and the loop unless the Government pay more attention to people”, but she said, “Please don’t, daddy”. practical realities. I ask the Minister: what in the The regional offices and the North-West Development Government’s arrangements for LEPs demonstrates Agency were probably overstaffed. They were not any improvement for Newhaven? wholly efficient, but that is a reason for slimming them down, making them efficient and getting them to do 7.15 pm their job more effectively rather than abolishing them. The North-West Development Agency had the same Lord Greaves: My Lords, we have heard a lot from task as the others. It had to deal with business support, the north-east during the discussion on these amendments which I think is very valuable. It also had the task of and I want to broaden it a little to the rest of the north directly stimulating development and regeneration by of England. I have Amendments 52 and 58 in this directing funds—many of them government funds—into group, which refer to the three regions of northern schemes in the region. One problem is that a large England: the north-east, Yorkshire and the north-west. number of those funds have dried up for the moment I speak as a Yorkshireman who lives in the north-west— and there is no money to hand out. However, the just—and, in view of what I am going to say, I should present Government seem to be of the view that remind the Committee that I am a member of Pendle regeneration in terms of investment in the public Borough Council. realm and the public infrastructure is not efficient Here, we are dealing with a government policy development and, unless the money goes directly to based on the view that regions do not really exist in commercial activity to create jobs, it should not be England. I think that that is a metropolitan/south-eastern done. However, who else is going to renovate the view of life and does not apply in the north. I believe public realm and regenerate rundown areas if not the that regions exist. I certainly believe that the north-east public sector? The commercial sector will come in and exists but I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Bates, help but the underlying funding has to come from the that most people in the north-west are very clear that public sector. However, it seems to me that that is they live in the north-west. North-west England may drying up and it will need to be reinstated as soon as be a boring name; nevertheless, most people in the possible. north-west know perfectly well that they live in the Furthermore, following the latest planning legislation, north-west and they have an allegiance to it. the regional development agencies were in charge of There are boundary problems, but there always are. producing the regional strategies along with the leaders’ I live in Pendle, which is on the border with Yorkshire. boards, which had a temporary existence. I always We have an area called West Craven, which includes thought, as I think my party did by and large, that it the small towns of Barnoldswick and Earby, where was not appropriate for an unelected regional development everyone believes that they are still in Yorkshire for agency to act effectively as a regional planning authority. everything other than administrative purposes. There Whatever was going to happen to regional planning—it is always a problem with Cumbria, which in a sense is is currently being abolished, although it will probably a mini-region on its own. If Cumbria had been twice have to come back—we would have had no problem at 861 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 862 all if it had been taken away from regional development it. It is a scorched-earth policy. Everything is being agencies, because it was not a suitable thing for them abolished. I always thought that it would have to be to do. I went back to the coalition agreement and rebuilt sometime. They are beginning to rebuild it at it says: the very time they are abolishing what is there at the “We will support the creation of local enterprise partnerships moment. There does not seem to be a great deal of … to replace regional development agencies (RDAs). These may logic about this. take the form of the existing RDAs in areas where they are The last thing I want to say is about LEPs—local popular”. enterprise partnerships—which are supposed to deliver That was a fudge when the coalition agreement was the local growth policies, though they will have precious hammered out, a compromise between the Liberal little government funding. The specific question I Democrat view that regional development agencies want to ask the Government—I do not expect my should continue to exist in areas such as the north of noble friend Lord Taylor to know but perhaps somebody England and the Conservative view that they should can write to me and tell me afterwards—refers specifically be swept away. Within Government that turned into a to Pennine Lancashire, the part of Lancashire that turf war between BIS and the CLG and the CLG wants to be a separate LEP from the rest of Lancashire came out on top. Like the north-east, we in the north-west based on Blackburn, Burnley, Hyndburn, Pendle, and people in Yorkshire thought that RDAs were Rossendale and Ribble Valley, a very clear economic going to continue in a slimmed-down form. area which already has institutions in PLACE, which So what is happening? We are told that there’s a is a regeneration and development agency set up by regional growth fund, but there is much less to spend the authorities in our part of Lancashire under a and it is being doled out centrally. The idea that multi-area agreement. So we have a Government who politicians and civil servants in London are the right tell us multi-area agreements are the way forward. We people to decide which projects in the north-west or in get on with it and produce an effective, genuine partnership the other parts of the north of England—places 200 or between the local authorities, working very closely 300 miles away—should be funded is not really credible. with the private sector, ready to go as a LEP. We know Decisions made in that way are not going to be good exactly what we want to do to convert it into a LEP decisions. There is European funding—the ERDF—and and how to do it and still we are not being given the the Rural Development Programme for England, but go-ahead. And yet the regional growth fund already again the decisions are being taken centrally. A Written exists. So who bids for our part of Lancashire? It is the Statement from my noble friend Lady Hanham says: body called PLACE which is the multi-area agreement body. That body exists and is bidding. Can the “I have concluded that, in order to maintain compliance with Government give an assurance that bids from areas the regulations and spending momentum, we should transfer the existing ERDF staff and functions into my department by the like ours which are properly organised and properly beginning of July”.—[Official Report, 3/2/2011; col. WS 86.] submitted, even though we do not yet have an agreed LEP, will be treated on exactly the same basis as areas Except in London where it will be devolved to the which already have a LEP? Otherwise we are being Greater London Authority, presumably because the dreadfully discriminated against. I hope the answer Greater London Authority exists. But in the rest of will be yes but I would be grateful if somebody could the country decisions about regional development funding write to me and tell me. are going to be made here in London. That just seems illogical. The regions in the north of England need to be recognised. Just because the existing RDAs have not Then we have the question of the transfer of assets. managed to narrow the gap between areas like the The regional development agencies have been asked to north and London does not mean they have not done produce plans but they are not being allowed to make a good job. There is no evidence whatever that by their own decisions. The decisions are going to be maintaining the gap as it is, even if it has not been made by the CLG and BIS, depending on what those narrowed, they have not been doing a job. Without decisions are. Then, as one noble Lord pointed out, them the gap might now be a lot larger. Unless we see assets are going to be offered to local authorities at a some research and proper evidence to the contrary, we commercial rate. In my experience in Pendle, some of will continue to believe that regional institutions are the property which belongs to the regional development necessary. agency was bought by the RDA off local authorities in order to provide a source of regeneration funding by Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, I want to those local authorities. But the local authorities are speak to Amendment 56, drawing on my experience as not going to have that money—so what is now happening? the Minister with responsibility for the south-west in People are realising that this is topsy-turvy and that it the year running up to the last general election. I agree is not going to work. We are told that for future with much of what has been said in this debate so far, regional development agency funding, ERDF funding but I want to start by paying tribute to Sir Harry and rural funding, there are going to be teams based in Studholme, the chair of SWRDA, and Jane Henderson, the regions, perhaps collocated with the Homes and the chief executive, and all of their staff for the Communities Agency. We read in the papers that BIS excellent work that I observed them doing during that is talking of setting up small regional offices in order year and the time preceding that when I was a Member to make sure that the decisions made are right for that of Parliament in the region. They were doing excellent region because people in London cannot do it. And work, largely on the supply side of the economy, we are told that for decisions on the regional growth developing sites such as Osprey Quay in my constituency, fund the CLG is going to have teams of people in the without which the Olympics would not be coming to regions because, again, people in London cannot do the south-west, Gloucester Docks and the Science 863 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 864

[LORD KNIGHT OF WEYMOUTH] little LEPs, so we will engage with Swindon council Park Network in the Bath and Bristol area. I endorse and central government. We can’t afford to do any the questions that were asked by my noble friend Lord more than that”. We will have less engagement with Beecham about assets and what happens to those the economy and less investment coming from a very assets owned by the regional development agency in important investor around the world. reality. I would also argue that there is an ideology attached SWRDA did excellent work in developing skills to this. Clearly the Government are against regional and 130,000 people have been provided with new policy even though it works in many other successful work-related skills since 2002 in the south-west. Without economies around the world. But they are also against SWRDA we would not have the combined university, an industrial policy and industrial activism. We would the only university in Cornwall, which has been doing not have the Eden project were it not for the risks that stunning work in developing the economy in that part were taken in part by the South West Regional of the region. Without it we would not have the Development Agency. Everyone knows the impact on marine skills centres across the south-west or the south-west tourism to have Eden developed in Cornwall. nuclear skills centre that is being developed in Somerset. As I said, we would also not have the Olympics. We SWRDA has been developing connectivity—the new should consider what has been done around creative generation broadband initiative in Cornwall, for example. hubs across the south-west, which is one of the strengths It has been developing finance for business. The South of our region, or for green industries. The Minister West Angel and Investor Network comes to mind, as needs to give us an answer on whether the Wave Hub, does the work that I was a part of in trying to get which is so important in the south-west, would have banks to focus on the needs of small businesses. been developed without a regional development agency. Hooking banks up with a federation of small businesses Could LEPs develop that? Would it just be one of the in the region was very important as we were trying to things that would bid into the regional growth fund? I respond to the recession. do not know. So plenty of good work went on across the region, The composite centre, which I was pleased to open, and although it is possible to argue that a region the built on the aerospace expertise of the region held by size of Denmark will have some issues around its Rolls-Royce, GKN, Westland and Airbus. Aerospace edges as to whether, for example, Bournemouth and manufacturers and the University of Bristol bring Poole as a conurbation is best placed in the south-west their expertise and they are supported not only by BIS or the south-east—and similarly with Swindon and in Whitehall but, crucially, the RDA. World-beating Gloucestershire, given that Tewkesbury is closer to composite technology is being built in Bristol. Would Scotland than it is to Land’s End; these arguments will that have happened with a LEP? Would it get through run—I would argue that we were just starting to get a a much more competitive regional growth fund strategy? sense of identity in the region as the RDAs were More than 100,000 public sector jobs are projected to becoming successful. be lost in the south-west, many of them in areas where LEPs are not set up. Under this new set-up, how will I would argue that the sort of centralisation that we those jobs be filled in an area that is peripheral compared are getting, and which others have argued against, is a with the south-east? backward step. LEPs have already been announced across the south-west but there is none so far in My final substantive point concerns value for money. Dorset, Bournemouth, Poole, Devon, Somerset Wiltshire I have already mentioned the scandal of the amount or Gloucestershire. Huge swathes of my region will of money that went to Sir John Banham. I looked at not have an LEP.Indeed, as the BBC reported, there is the independent evaluations of RDAs, and it appears one down in Cornwall where we have the interesting that only 10 per cent of the overall budget was spent spectacle of Sir John Banham being generously engaged on administration and that it had a clean bill of health for just over 20 days at half his daily rate—it is usually from the National Audit Office. That 10 per cent £4,000 but is now £2,000—to produce a strategy which figure is something that many parts of the public has now been rejected. He has now left at a cost of sector and indeed some parts of the private sector more than £40,000 to the taxpayer. I cannot see that as would be pleased to score. I think that £238 million good value for money from this new system. was spent on administration. That is all the saving that is potentially there. As has already been said, even if 7.30 pm my party had been re-elected, we would have had to cut the overall budget and the administration costs We are seeing a centralisation caused by Whitehall with it. It is not a massive saving given that for every dictating what the LEP boundaries should be. As far pound spent, £4.50—the more conservative estimate—is as I can tell, the LEP proposals from the south-west generated in the economy. These are the questions that have been knocked back because they do not appeal to the Government need to answer. Whitehall’s notion of what the boundaries should be. The regional growth fund has been referred to, as has the centralisation of the Rural Development Programme Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I am sorry to interrupt for England and the ERDF. I had a conversation with the noble Lord, but he has twice mentioned Sir John a leading multinational technology company based in Banham, and his last reference was in terms of a Swindon which said, “Once the RDAs are gone we scandal. Will he make it clear to the Committee that if cannot really have a good relationship with the two scandal there be, it is not to be laid at the door of regions that are most important to us, as we do with Sir John Banham, who is a friend of mine and a other regional governments around Europe. Frankly, considerable public servant, but should be laid at the we haven’t the energy to engage with lots of individual door of those who put him on the task? 865 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Israel 866

Lord Knight of Weymouth: I do not know Sir John and self-inflicted humiliation which is further eroding Banham but it seems extraordinary that more than America’s already tattered so-called leadership of the £40,000 has been paid out from the Cornish LEP to western world. commission him to do a job that was then rejected. Indeed, Barack Obama made it even worse by Something in that process has gone wrong. I know allowing the long-suffering Department of State—and that he has done other work and given service in I have enormous sympathy for many of its senior public life. I have nothing against him personally, but officials dealing with this matter—to leak the sad news something has gone badly wrong. We need to learn that he imposed the veto with a heavy heart. The US lessons from that. If we are to make savings out of this ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, was even allowed process, which one assumes is part of the motivation, to make some harsh comments on the illegal colonisation we cannot afford for any of those individual LEPs to policy. Even the former Israeli consul-general in New be making £40,000 errors. That money needs to be York, Alon Pinkas, said that this should be the last-ever spent on creating jobs, particularly for young people—to veto since Americans in general were sick and tired of reprise what my noble friend Lady Armstrong said. the continuing charade carried out in their name. Even In summary the Minister needs to say why we are Israel military radio carried a reaction of disbelief. going for an ideological centralisation and anti-industrial The cynical use of the veto by America so blatantly policy position. Where is the value for money out of and so often is a madness that must not continue. this abolition of the regional development agency? Furthermore, against the background of the momentous events now in surrounding Arab countries, where the House resumed. Committee to begin again not before essence of the people’s democracy is rising up against 8.38 pm. tyranny and the abuse of power, we see just how monumental have been the mistakes made by the US and by us, too, the West as a whole, in the frenzied, Israel relentless search for oil at any price—any political Question for Short Debate price and any price of freedom. The whole history of the West’s presence in Arabia is indeed a saga of 7.38 pm wretchedness and despair for ordinary citizens in most Asked By Lord Dykes of these countries, much of that manifested now in the words used by the rioting crowds in the various squares To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will in the various countries when they are interviewed by work with the Government of the United States to the media. ensure that Israel complies with United Nations As in Latin America for so many years, we remember resolutions and international law. with pain that the US in particular has always preferred the brutal dictator regimes, as it does now in Arabia. Lord Dykes: My Lords, this is again a very important Surely now is the time for the former imperial powers moment to have a debate on this matter. I am grateful and the US to restore the balance of hope in this to the House for giving me the opportunity this evening. crucial area by following an ethical foreign policy, as Over the weekend it was good to see for once— well as by curbing arms sales and stopping support for unusually, and I suppose sadly—the unanimous decisions unacceptable regimes, even Saudi Arabia with its corrupt of the UN Security Council calling on Colonel Gaddafi royal dictatorship. Above all, now is the time for to account for the abominable behaviour that he is Israel, too, to show decency and wisdom at long last in wreaking on his own people. In contrast, how depressing its policy towards the cruelly treated Palestinians. Make it was to see—once again, and probably for the no mistake, Israel is a country that I greatly admire, 42nd time—the previous weekend’s United Nations and I have done so for many years. I admire many of Security Council session being ruined, even recklessly the people there. It is a great country. It has a great sabotaged, by another US veto concerning the Israel/ contribution to make in the Middle East. Palestine issue. A seemingly unanimous decision in a Meanwhile, however, across the fence, we see Fatah moderately worded resolution asking Israel to obey its struggling for the legitimacy that it lacks in the Arab international law duties in occupied Palestine was street. That is one reason why it will not join in deliberately—I am sad to use the verb—wrecked by negotiations until Israel acknowledges its offences under the US. This time it caused universal resentment, even international law and the Geneva conventions on the hatred, towards America among some of the other treatment of civilians and shows a complete change of Security Council members. Some of them kept silent heart. That is a responsibility that is as solemn for an counsel, but they did so with great sadness. occupying power as it is for a country that actually Once again the US refused to condemn behaviour owns the territory legally. Can the present Israeli which even President Reagan repeatedly described as Government—who so sadly include a number of rather totally illegal: the continued colonisation of the West extremist members, though I will not mention any Bank and, of course, East Jerusalem. Once again the names tonight, and who have been such a Arab street sees the double standards of the US. disappointment—accept this reality at long last? I Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and was quite rightly hope so. In doing so, they would be meeting the expelled after a year. The UN, quite rightly, did not fervent wishes of millions of decent, fair-minded Israeli hesitate then. Israel invaded the West Bank 44 years citizens who want peace and security and good relations ago, but it is still there. I warmly congratulate the UK with their Arab and Palestinian neighbours. Government as well as the EU on their much more With the Palestinians seemingly prepared to accept decisive stand in contrast to the still lingering, miserable that a two-state outcome will accord them a mere 867 Israel[LORDS] Israel 868

[LORD DYKES] 7.46 pm 23 per cent of the original combined mandate territory, Lord Bates: My Lords, I thank my noble friend there is no longer any rational reason for Israel to Lord Dykes for securing this timely debate and also prevaricate even if aided by a totally incompetent for the way in which he has presented it. I believe that American support stance. That will mean that the the only hope for the development of civilisation is to settlers have to leave the illegally occupied lands. Let advance towards a society of states under a rules-based us repeat that loud and clear. The Israeli Government international order. The argument is that there is a can easily provide financial assistance for resettlement community or society beyond the nation state of which back in Israel proper. There is, for example, plenty of we are all part and being part of that club comes with spare space if the Negev, too, is properly developed international rights and responsibilities. with infrastructure and modernised in the future. This process has not yet even begun to take place on a The alternative to a rules-based international order massive scale. While they are about it, surely the is anarchy in which the powerful do as they will while Israelis can modernise their hopelessly outdated election the weak suffer as they must. That is the completely system and reduce the blackmail of the tiny extremist opposite end of the spectrum from which I am sure we parties in the Knesset. all entered politics. We wanted justice to trump power and protect freedom and if anything have a bias to the Yes, it will mean that the international community weak and the oppressed. This too was the desire which has to accept the inclusion of Hamas in any fundamental, led to the creation of the United Nations out of the realistic negotiations for peace. It is outrageous that it carnage of World War II. Article 1 of the UN Charter has been excluded when it is the main Palestinian says: political grouping capable of securing a genuine “To bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with democratic majority. What a contrast to the Fatah the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or president’s desperate and lamentable efforts to secure settlement of international disputes”. street support, having already blatantly exceeded the Whyisthatrelevanttothisdebate?Wellitisrelevant mandate period. At long last elections are now in the because we have voluntarily agreed along with 191 other offing, thanks to the pressure that he was facing, but it nations to work for peace within a framework of law will be outrageous if the Palestinian Authority seeks and non-violence. Why is that especially relevant to to exclude Hamas from the West Bank election activity— Israel? The state of Israel exists in international law or, indeed, per contra, if Hamas seeks to consolidate only because the United Nations Special Committee one-party rule in Gaza, which is surely just as unacceptable, of Palestine in 1947 proposed that it should be along preventing other parties there from having a say. Leading with an Arab state of Palestine and because United Palestinian political commentators of all groups were Nations Resolution 181 said it existed in international certainly too eager to express support for the dodgy law. dictators, some of whom have now been removed, in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya. We are also now observing I would argue therefore that there is a special reason the events in Yemen. for the state of Israel to look benevolently upon the United Nations institution for it, more than any other Any elections in the near term must restore the nation or institution, has realised the aspirations of a confidence of the street in the West Bank. They must Jewish national homeland and enshrined that in law. It help local voters feel that they are playing a full part in therefore requires it to comply with its requests expressed the wider Arab uprising which we are now excitedly through resolutions and work with the United Nations witnessing. Huge problems are still being caused by despite its manifold imperfections to bring about the the long-running American stupidity and carelessness creation of a viable Palestinian state as equal partners in the Middle East. They will take time to sort out. in an international society of nation states. Israel must show it can rise to the occasion at last. As William Hague stated on 14 February: 7.49 pm “We are calling for both sides to show the visionary boldness to return to talks and make genuine compromises … the entire Lord Judd: My Lords, I too congratulate the noble international community, including the United States, should Lord, Lord Dykes, on having so firmly introduced this now support 1967 borders as the basis for resumed negotiations. debate today. I would just like to make two or three The result should be two states, with Jerusalem as the future points. First, I think historically it is a major tragedy capital of both”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/2/11; col. 716.] that we have seen the United States behave as it has at After all the tears and madness of history, cannot the United Nations in recent weeks. It is while the the world work for the two friendly states, side by side, United States still has ascendency in the international erasing the tragedy of Israel’s failure to be magnanimous community that it is so important for it to throw its and generous after its spectacular 1967 victories? Then weight behind the strengthening of international we could perhaps see a rewritten version of the Balfour institutions and international law. That is in the interests declaration. Let me try this one to see if it is congenial: of the future of the people of the United States “As long as it is not to the detriment of the 62 year-old because it will not always have that ascendency. It will state of Israel, a renewed homeland will be created for then—too late, perhaps—realise the importance of the state of Palestine, a modern democratic and progressive having strong international institutions and the rule of republic, with financial assistance from the international international law. community, the two neighbours respecting human Secondly, what is so sad about what the United rights and their reciprocal friendship, producing in States has done is that it is absolutely counterproductive due time the near east common market for the prosperity to the security of Israel. It will not help the people of of all”. Israel. No one cares more than I do about the future 869 Israel[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Israel 870 of Israel; I have many friends in Israel. I am glad There is little to bring Israel to the table when it can that the noble Lord, Lord Bates, and the noble Lord, create facts on the ground with impunity in its settlements, Lord Dykes, in introducing the debate, referred to the its separation wall and, above all, its electoral system, people of Israel letting down themselves. Many people which allows for its most extreme elements to sit at the in Israel want the debate in Israel to open up. They table. The Palestinians, too, have settled for a dual-track have a completely different perspective on the future. strategy: that of securing economic growth by Fatah They see that the future of Israel, the strength of in the West Bank, while Hamas seems to be torn Israel and the safety of Israel lie in negotiated settlements between being, on the one hand, the Government in and making peace with the people in the surrounding Gaza and, on the other, still playing the role of insurgent area. when it suits it. Fatah, we hear, will try to seek a If there is to be peace in the region, it is essential unilateral declaration of independence, but that, while that negotiations are as inclusive as possible. That is giving it legitimacy, will not give it back East Jerusalem where the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, is so right again—he or freedom for the Occupied Territories and will certainly has done it before—to emphasise the importance of not give the people who languish in the camps the Hamas. At the moment, there is a self-fulfilling prophecy: right of return. we strengthen the extremist elements in Hamas. They My noble friend Lord Dykes talked of the democratic are not all extremists in Hamas; we should be trends in the Middle East. If there is one silver lining, strengthening the more moderate elements and bringing it is that the Arab nations together, once they move to them in to help move the negotiations forward. more democratic and legitimate frameworks, could Finally, let us just remember that when we talk secure Israel by normalising relations with Israel. That about aggression and the threat of aggression, of would be a significant step forward. The West should course it is wrong to kill innocent Israelis. That cannot stand by to facilitate that through encouraging democracy be condoned, but what about the bombardments of and pluralism in those countries but, ultimately, the the so-called buffer zone within Gaza? What about the peace, such it will come, will have to be made between 52 innocent people killed within the buffer zone last the two countries alone. year? What about the embargo and the damage that it 7.55 pm has done to the health, well-being, industry and economic life of Gaza? Is that not aggression? From every Lord Bew: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, standpoint, the American position has been disastrous. Lord Dykes, for introducing the debate on this important I congratulate the British Government with one subject. I start by declaring an interest as the incoming reservation. Having made such a courageous, firm and chairman of the Anglo-Israel Association and say that sensible stand at the UN, why on earth did the Prime as someone who was a strong advocate in the early Minister at this very juncture go with a group of arms and mid-1990s of what became the Good Friday salesmen to the Gulf, sending a completely contrary agreement solution in Northern Ireland, I am strongly message to that which is inherent in everything that we committed to historic compromise as the means to are arguing about how peace and security need to be overcome the tenacious problems of ethnic, religious achieved? That was counterproductivity of the first and national political divides. order. I want to concentrate on the issues surrounding the United States, the United Nations and our foreign 7.52 pm policy in recent days. One point has to be made about the decision made by the American Administration in Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, I apologise the lead-up to the recent United Nations vote: to the House for my delay in attending the debate of 110 congressmen wrote to the Administration to say, my noble friend Lord Dykes. I was detained in my “Do not support this anti-Israel resolution”. In the room momentarily. end, the Administration compromised. Critical points It is nearly 18 years since the Oslo peace accords were made about Israeli policy. I say wryly and not showed a ray of hope for a peace settlement; but with overwhelming pleasure after 30 years experience 18 years later, we find ourselves at an impasse. The of the Irish question that 110 congressmen is 109 more history of US involvement in recent times—we can go than you need to countermand any dialogue between back to the Camp David accords, the Madrid conference, our Foreign Office and the State Department. We the Clinton parameters and Annapolis—should have must respect profound political realities for any United yielded greater results than they have. Of course, it States Administration. does not fall to the US alone to secure peace in our On the United Nations decision, one point made by time in the Middle East, but recent US efforts have the American ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, been particularly disappointing. We have had fine seems to me of some substance. She argued that, had rhetoric since the inauguration of President Obama the United States not vetoed the resolution, it would and the expression of lofty ideals, but we are no closer merely have hardened opinion on both sides. More to a solution than at any time before Oslo. profoundly, it is clearly the view of the United States If the US continues to be rebuffed in the manner that the United Nations—its resolutions and its theatre—is that it is being rebuffed at the moment by the Israelis, not the context for the resolution of the Middle Eastern the question is to be asked whether the will for peace problem. That is the message that the United States is exists between the Israelis and the Palestinians, because sending to us. We may not like it, but we have been there will be a comprehensive peace only if both sides sent that message very firmly. are prepared to sit down to sue for peace, irrespective The problem is seen more profoundly as one of of the position of other powers. land for peace and of convincing enough Israelis, in 871 Israel[LORDS] Israel 872

[LORD BEW] vote for. However, in my view, Israel continues to play the aftermath of the disappointment that many Israelis an important role in the international community. It feel about the consequences of withdrawal from Gaza, represents a bridge between Europe and the Middle in both the political class and the population at large, East. It represents democracy, liberty and freedom in that land for peace is a gamble that they can take on. a region that has long been filled with tyrannies and That is the fundamental problem. It is not helped by dictatorships. We have all seen the people’s aspirations, one-sided denunciations of Israel and the failure thus which have long been suppressed, now released in far in the debate to acknowledge the consequences for recent revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain and now many Israelis and the disappointment felt because of Libya, which we should welcome. We should recognise one risk that was taken: the withdrawal from Gaza. the fact that the only democracy in that area is the That is the reality with which we are now faced in this country that Members of this House have been attacking context. The United Nations and its resolutions are, in so readily this evening. The instability of the region a sense, background music. has always been a major problem for Israel. However, the current revolutions in the Middle East present an 7.59 pm opportunity for Israel and the world. The primary role of a nation state is to defend its Lord Tugendhat: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble borders and citizens from attack. Israel faces a tough Lord, Lord Dykes, for launching this debate. The best task. Its duty is to defend its citizens. Hamas is not a reason for working closely with the United States in Government and Gaza is not a nation state. Hamas the past was that it always seemed to have the best has been praised. However, Hamas is a terrorist group, chance of bringing about a just and peaceful resolution which rains terrors on civilians in Israel. These terrorists to the Israel-Palestine dispute. Sadly, we now seem to ignore international law and they, not Israel, should have reached the point where that is no longer the be the key focus of this debate. Let me make it clear to case. Israel remains obdurate. The United States is this House: Israel does not target citizens, unlike Hamas unwilling to act as a candid friend. The result is the and Hezbollah, which target citizens in many parts of recent vote in the United Nations Security Council, in Israel. Mistakes occur in warfare, just as mistakes have which the United States found itself isolated, as did occurred in Afghanistan and Iraq. When these mistakes the Israeli position of settlements and occupation. I happen, investigations are launched and, where possible, hope that the United States will learn from this justice is delivered. I would have been interested to embarrassing debacle, which has separated it from hear how the noble Lord who triggered this debate almost all its closest friends and allies. It is still the best would himself have responded if we in this nation hope for securing a just resolution to the Israel-Palestine suffered from attacks from terrorist entities, which is dispute. the position that Israel has to face. Many of these However, we, and other countries who believe that terrorists were funded and armed by an Iranian regime Israel’s current contra mundi defiance is against its dedicated to the destruction of Israel and to attacks own long-term interest as well as a danger to peace, on Jewish people around the world. The true question should no longer wait on the United States. At this for this House is who the real abusers of international critical stage in the Middle East, when hope and fear law are: Israel, which defends its citizens, or the terrorists are so finely balanced, we must be open and frank who target them. about our abhorrence of Israel’s current settlements policy and the concomitant occupation that it involves. 8.05 pm We should bear in mind the wise words of David Shulman, the Renee Lang professor of humanistic Baroness Tonge: My Lords, I congratulate my noble studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, when friend on introducing this debate tonight. I have somewhat he talks about, had my breath blown away by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Janner. “its relentless, daily, dehumanizing grind”. The international community is outraged by the We must make clear the extent to which that policy behavior of Colonel Gaddafi towards his people in diminishes our friendship for the Government—as Libya and has rightly condemned his actions, which distinct from the people—of Israel, with the practical have violated human rights and international law. The consequences that must inevitably flow from this. It is reaction from our leaders has been swift and decisive. very sad that we should be in this position. As the Sanctions are being imposed and bank accounts frozen— noble Lord, Lord Dykes, and others have said, there quite right too. Any Government who behave in this are many in Israel who do not share the views of its way should receive the same response. Why, then, has Government. I pay particular tribute to those Israeli the Government of Israel, who defy all international soldiers who recently produced the book, Occupation law, never been called to account by the international of the Territories: Israeli Soldier Testimonies 2000-2010. community and, why, just last week—as we have heard It is to those voices in Israel that we should listen and from other noble Peers—did the USA veto the UN not always to some of the advocates of the hard-line resolution on settlements after calling for a freeze on policies of the Government that we hear in this House. those settlements just a few months ago? Why has this happened when the behaviour of Israel towards the 8.02 pm Palestinians lies at the very root of the problems in the Lord Janner of Braunstone: My Lords, does this Arab-Muslim world? House recognise that Israel is the only democracy in Tonight, I want to raise briefly the subject of prisoners the Middle East? Democracies, like Israel or this country, and their treatment by Israel. At the end of January, do not always elect the Governments whom we would there were 5,642 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, 873 Israel[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Israel 874

621 of whom are still awaiting trial and 219 of whom describing the work in which he is involved in bringing are being held in administrative detention for no good Israelis and Palestinians together in education, health reason, without any charge or prospect of trial. Since and the environment and in fostering economic prosperity 2000, over 7,000 children have been held in Israeli in the West Bank. prisons. There are currently 221 children in prison. A The UN is not the place to bring pressure on Israel horrifying report has been submitted to the UN by the to end the occupation and to freeze settlements. That Defence for Children International. I beg your Lordships has to be done by negotiation. This Government must to read the report. Most children had been accused of support a two-state solution and reject the delegitimisation throwing stones and were subjected to various forms of Israel. They could encourage and help Arab leaders of torture and forced to sign statements written in to invest in infrastructure, housing and general state- Hebrew. There is no time to give the detail. However, building for a future Palestine. They could promote this is a sure way of providing embittered terrorists the education of Palestinian youth towards a future of who will hate Israel for the rest of their lives. peace and co-operation, not rockets and hatred. They After four years in prison, three members of the could rehabilitate housing so that refugee camps become PLC are now threatened with deportation from their decent habitats. There are obvious opportunities and homes and constituencies in East Jerusalem and have responsibilities for the UK Government if they heed taken refuge in the Red Cross. Is imprisonment for the voices of reason. winning an election permitted under international law? I think not. Israel is immune to international law. We 8.11 pm have to face this. The USA and Europe collude in it Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: My Lords, I compliment and I hope that the Minister will tell me why. my noble friend Lord Dykes on securing this short debate. I know that he, like me, seeks a lasting peace in 8.08 pm the region based on a two-state solution with a secure state of Israel alongside a very viable Palestinian state. Baroness Deech: My Lords, we have had a stream of Of course, it is helpful if United Nations resolutions similar questions over the past few months evincing are complied with but, as my noble friend Lord Dykes a disproportionate focus by this House on Israel, pointed out, they are resolutions of the General Assembly, now evident in the turmoil in the Middle East. not of the Security Council. Israel has complied with These questions are based on some implicit but every resolution of the Security Council, with all its unsustainable assumptions—for example, that Britain faults. In fact, it complied with only one, on Lebanon. has any influence over Israel and Palestine or that it There have been no others. should be following and supporting American policy, which has been criticised here tonight. The UK risks However, my view is that, contrary to the name of becoming a spent force in this area because it is no this debate, trying to solve the long-standing conflict longer seen as even-handed by Israel. The Foreign by United Nations resolutions is not the way forward. Secretary’s recent comments have made this situation As my noble friend Lord Dykes suggests, Her Majesty’s even more partial. The judgment of the UK Government Government and the United States could have a role, and their advisers over the Middle East is suspect. We but I am certain that the first step must be, as the noble have got it wrong for years. Baroness, Lady Deech, said, to get the Israelis and the Palestinians to the negotiating table. I would add to As we speak, international humanitarian law is that “without preconditions”. That is the problem. being ignored to the damage of millions in the region. The Palestinians say they will not go to the negotiating Israel has not been the focus of the rising-up by the table unless something happens—for example, no peoples of Tunisia, Bahrain, Egypt and Libya. Indeed, settlements. The Israelis say they will not go unless I once heard an ambassador from the region say to an they are recognised by everyone. My view is that the audience that the Arab states did not really care about United States, the United Kingdom and others should Israel at all, but it was a useful deflection from the ensure that they sit down at that negotiating table problems internal to their states. without any preconditions whatever. Once they are As far as the UN goes, one would have thought that there at that table, I believe that things can be solved. to point out that Libya and Bahrain have seats on the For those who study the region—I am a former chairman United Nations Human Rights Council would suffice of the Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel and I have to make one sceptical, but the law and the resolutions studied it deeply—there is a desire for a solution. Most are not clear. The fundamental issue is that Israel itself people know what that solution will be—where roughly owes its existence to the League of Nations and the the border will be. Once there is a border, the settlements UN and has a right of self-determination and self-defence, that are on the non-Israeli side of the border will no which has been rejected wholesale ever since 1947 by longer be there as settlements. You solve it at a stroke. its neighbours. For example, today is the last day of At the same time, we have to ensure that there is no Gilad Shalit fortnight. This young Israeli solider has psychological and practical warfare on Israel, where been held for four years but Hamas and denied all the towns of Sderot and Ashkelon in Israel are bombarded visits, even from the Red Cross, in breach of international by rockets, producing a psychological and practical humanitarian law. This is one matter that the UK fear in Israel; it is this that produces some of the Government can take up if they wish to promote the attitudes of the Israeli Government, of which many in rule of law in the region. this House might disapprove. The UK can also be constructive in building normal I ask noble Lords to think about the fact that our relations. The noble Lord, Lord Stone of Blackheath, duty as a country is to get these people to the negotiating made a moving and impressive speech on 11 February table and to bear in mind that this is not only about 875 Israel[LORDS] Israel 876

[LORD PALMER OF CHILDS HILL] practical issues and a little less on the rhetoric about Palestinian refugees; 800,000 Jews fled Arab lands, of the serious problems of the region, we might see more which 600,000 found a home in Israel. Refugees, sadly, progress. are part of life. Many of us have been refugees or have parents who were so. 8.18 pm Lord Alderdice: My Lords, I think we are all grateful 8.15 pm to my noble friend Lord Dykes for giving us an Lord Beecham: My Lords, I come to this debate as a opportunity to address this serious question again, committed supporter of Israel and a committed critic albeit in a very short time. Most of us have only three of its Government: as a committed supporter of a minutes. I will raise just three points; the first is an two-state solution and an opponent of the settlements. observation, the second is a fear, the third is an appeal. The question of the legality of the settlements in My observation is that in these conflicts in general, international law is perhaps more arguable than is and in this conflict in particular, it is not only those normally thought to be the case, but that is an who are in the conflict who are exceptionally passionate irrelevance here; I certainly oppose the settlements. about it; those outside who have any interest and Whether, in the reported words of a distinguished concern—indeed, almost anyone who gets involved—are Member of this House, this makes me an intelligent passionate on one side of the argument. It seems but prejudiced Jew, I do not know—I leave it to others extremely difficult to contain the problem and feel to determine. strongly about it, but not feel strongly for one side and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, in his against another. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, will recognise criticism of the political system in Israel. Interestingly, that very much from our own experience, and we have of course, it is a very pure form of proportional seen that demonstrated here tonight. When people representation, which presumably he would like to see become very passionate, it becomes difficult to think in this country. He also referred to the 1947 resolution clearly and reflectively about a problem. that created the state of Israel: a resolution that, if it My second point expresses a fear. I have been going had been complied with, would have led to the creation backwards and forwards to the region for a number of of an independent Palestine. It was not complied with years. When I first started to go, I was a little optimistic because Egypt and Jordan decided not to implement about the possibilities. In Israel, I met people in the it. Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt occupied Government, in the Opposition and in civic society. I Gaza. The reality is that, 60-odd years later, many of met people on the Palestinian side in Fatah and Hamas, the states in the region still do not recognise the and in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt, and I had a existence of the state of Israel—and more particularly, sense that people wanted to move forward, but in the and crucially, neither does Hamas. If Hamas had followed past couple of years I have felt that opportunity for Fatah and the Palestinian Authority in recognising the progress slipping away. A two-state solution would be state of Israel, it would certainly be a legitimate partner an ideal thing to achieve, but increasingly it is beginning in a dialogue. That is clearly a consolation that all of to slip off the agenda. Israel is the country that needs a us here in your Lordships’ House would like to see. two-state solution because I cannot for the life of me I will refer not so much to the general issues but to see how you can have a Jewish democratic state unless small yet positive steps that might be taken—and you have a homeland for the Palestinians, yet it is indeed have already been initiated—in developing the becoming harder seriously to believe that a two-state democratic structures within Israel and potentially within solution remains possible. Palestine. So far as Israel is concerned, they relate to I hope that I can be persuaded otherwise by the the Israeli Arab community. In my former days in the facts and I want to see it, but those who believe in an Local Government Association, I managed to initiate historic existential right for Israel to extend the whole a scheme for capacity building within the Arab municipal way from the sea to Jordan are mixed together with sector in Israel, supported by the previous Government, those who would like a two-state solution but feel that with a modest amount of funding that is still available there is no possibility of a partner for peace in the during the current year. I hope that the present Palestinians and those who want a two-state solution Government will continue with that programme, and but now see no prospect of one. They are all mixed seek to extend it to the Palestinian Authority itself. It together and there is almost no other side of the is clearly in everyone’s interest—other speakers have argument in Israel. That is extremely worrying. referred to this—to promote democracy and state My final point is an appeal for international law. I building within the Arab world. Here is an example of tried to address the question of Gilad Shalit, which where it can happen. was mentioned by noble Baroness. I met his family The event two years ago in Israel, which saw people and senior officials in Hamas and they said, “We from local government in this country going over to found that this is the only way we can get our prisoners work with newly elected Arab mayors, can be repeated—I out. We cannot get them out by legal means so we get hope it will be repeated. This is a principle that might them out this way. We have found that we can do a well be extended to the territories. The Local Government deal with the Israeli Government”. I hope for his sake Association signed agreements with both the local and for his family that Gilad Shalit gets home soon. I government associations of Palestine and Israel, and hope that the Palestinian prisoners also get home here local government can play a small positive role in soon, but that is what happens when international and developing the kind of structures—and ultimately the domestic law are set aside because of passions. I kind of contacts—that can only help lead to a peaceful appeal for a return to the rule of law, for without it resolution. If we were to concentrate more on the there is only chaos in the Middle East. 877 Israel[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Israel 878

8.22 pm ultimately succeeds in bringing the two sides together, it remains the case that any settlement should include Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, I thank a two-state solution, with a permanent end to hostilities, the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, for giving us the opportunity an agreement on the boundaries of a new country of to debate this crucial issue this evening. As several Palestine, an end to the West Bank settlement expansion, noble Lords have said, the movement for democracy and a resettlement of illegal occupiers. across the Middle East, while causing short-term anxiety about the loss of life and the intransigence of some Finally, I hope that both our own Government and regimes, must ultimately offer a precious moment the United States can seize this chance and play their when new politics and real change can be delivered. role in bringing about a lasting Middle East peace That is why the Foreign Secretary was right to say that settlement based on these principles. the turmoil in the Middle East should be used as a springboard to reignite the peace process. 8.26 pm At the same time, it goes without saying that we The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth have to be sensitive about our comments and/or Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, I give interventions when the region is in such flux, particularly warm thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, for in the context of our own history. That is why the opening this brief debate in such a robust fashion. I United Nations, imperfect though it is, continues to will come to some of his points in a moment. It has provide a respected forum for determining the common inevitably been a somewhat staccato debate, given the good and the rule of international law. That is why it very short time in which noble Lords have been able to continues to have an important role to play in the speak, but quite often in these very short debates we Middle East peace process. get the distillation of remarkable wisdom in very few We remain concerned that the peace talks initiated words. Some very profound things have been said very by the Obama Government appear to have stalled. No clearly by a number of your Lordships who obviously one underestimates the difficulty of the task involved have a huge hinterland of knowledge, but three minutes in bringing the two sides together for meaningful places a severe limit on what can be said. Whether in dialogue, but with any new Government there is hope my few minutes I will be able to comment on every one for a fresh approach and a renewed determination of the contributions is in the hands of the gods. If I that they might make progress. In addition, President cannot do that, I apologise in advance, and will certainly Obama himself signalled from an early stage that this discuss with or write to noble Lords who feel I have would be a priority for his Administration and we not addressed their points sufficiently. desperately want him to succeed, but since the 10-month Before I come to the detailed points in the debate, moratorium expired last September Israel has resumed let me say that the United Kingdom Government are construction in the West Bank and East Jerusalem—an committed to upholding international law, as enshrined act that it knows to be provocative not only to the in the United Nations resolutions and the Geneva Palestinians but to much of the rest of the world. Conventions, and the Israel-Palestine conflict which we have been debating this evening is no exception. We also know that the Obama Administration has Our commitment was most recently demonstrated called on Israel to cease construction and return to the when, on Friday 18 February at the UN Security peace talks. However, that appeal appears to have Council, the United Kingdom and others, including been ignored and it may well be time to face the fact France and Germany, voted to reinforce our long-standing that diplomatic initiatives of the past need to be view that the Israeli settlements, including those in backed by other forms of pressure. Perhaps the Minister East Jerusalem, are illegal under international law, are can update the House as to any discussions that are an obstacle to peace, and constitute a threat to the taking place between the Foreign Secretary and his US two-state solution. It was a matter of regret that it counterpart in this regard. remained a draft resolution, and that the UN Security This brings us to the recent UN resolution that Council could not speak with one voice on this issue. condemned the Israeli settlement construction in A number of your Lordships have concentrated on Palestinian territory. It was a resolution in accord with that very point. the stated policy of the US, but nevertheless the The reasons for the US veto were given at some Administration chose to stand alone and veto it at the length by the spokesperson. They are, in a sense, the Security Council. As we have heard, their justification US’s own reasons. They argue, as the noble Lord, for this decision was that it would complicate efforts to Lord Bew, reminded us, that the UN Security Council resume the peace talks. With some sadness, I have to was the wrong place, and that pursuing the issue there say that this position might have had some legitimacy might make negotiations harder. The US delegate if there had been any evidence of a pending breakthrough also reminded us that they rejected the legitimacy of in kick-starting the peace talks, but as things stand, settlement activity, which may be some sliver of comfort the US position has weakened both its own role and for those who have found this such a pity, but that they the UN’s voice in bringing the parties together, and saw this as the wrong forum in which to push forward has regrettably encouraged further illegal construction the proposals of the Palestinians and the Palestinian- of Israeli settlements. initiated draft, and therefore opposed it. We were in I welcome our own Government’s intervention on regular contact with the US on the run-up to the vote. this, and the fact that we supported the UN resolution, I have been asked what contact there has been between and I hope that the Minister can update us on some the Foreign Secretary and Secretary of State Hillary further discussions that have taken place behind the Clinton. The answer is that there has been contact; scenes on this. Whatever route it takes, and whoever there was in the run-up and there has been since on 879 Israel[LORDS] Israel 880

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] comply with UN resolutions. The noble Lord, Lord this matter. The Foreign Secretary made it clear that Janner, said that in many respects it has—but clearly Israel’s obligations under international law are central in others it has not. to making progress toward a two-state solution. That The noble Lord, Lord Judd, also said that negotiations remains our view. ought to include Hamas, and made some sharp remarks I have heard some argue that current events in the on arms sales. He criticised my right honourable friend region mean that this whole matter may be pushed and his colleagues for travelling through the Middle aside by the turmoil that we have seen in north Africa East and arguing both that there should be more and elsewhere. I think that that is completely wrong. democracy and that there should be an arms trade. He Indeed, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has to face the fact, as my right honourable friend said as much this afternoon in his Statement in another said, that democracies have to arm. The question is place. We believe that Israel’s security and the realisation whether they should be armed by Chinese or Russian of the Palestinians’ right to statehood are not opposing weapons, which are in ample supply—they can produce goals at all. On the contrary, they are intimately intertwined all kinds of unregulated, dangerous and lethal objectives, and we should push ahead and make them weapons—or whether the legitimate and properly with the MEPP, which becomes even more vital in the controlled arms exports of this country should continue present circumstances. to play a part. That question has to be answered before one denounces completely the arms trade of Our main goal is to work with the United States this country. and other international partners to return the parties as soon as possible to direct negotiations towards a My noble friend Lady Falkner spoke, as always, two-state solution, on the basis of clear parameters. I with great feeling. She asked whether we could normalise know that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, with his relations between the Arabs and Israel in the right great experience cast doubt on whether the two-state context. I believe that we can. The noble Lord, Lord solution is still possible. We believe that it is, and that Bew, put the point of view of the United States quite it remains a goal, and that we should go for an fairly, as I, too, have done. We do not agree with it, but agreement on the borders of the two states, based on now at least we understand where they are coming 4 June 1967 lines with equivalent land swaps, as may from. My noble friend Lord Tugendhat gave an eloquent be agreed between the parties. That is the first basis of plea to listen to the moderate voices of Israel—those our approach. The second is to have security arrangements who really want to secure the longer range security of which, for Palestinians, respect their sovereignty and Israel, rather than some of the more extreme voices show that the occupation is over and, for Israelis, that many of us feel are anti-Israeli, though they come protect their security, prevent the resurgence of terrorism from Israeli personnel. and deal effectively with new and emerging threats. I have mentioned the noble Lord, Lord Janner, who That was a point of view that the noble Lord, Lord believes that Hamas are terrorists. I have stated the Janner, and others put in this debate, where we have UK Government’s view towards them. My noble friend witnessed the same divisions of view as exist in the Lady Tonge, who is immensely experienced in these wider world about this whole difficult matter, even in issues and in the details, asked about Palestinian prisoners. our brief contributions. We raise the issue continuously, particularly the very Thirdly, we believe that a just, fair and agreed worrying concerns about underage and juvenile prisoners solution to the refugee question should be the basis of and how they are held. We raise them all the time with progress. Fourthly, we believe in the fulfilment of the the Israelis and will continue to do so. The noble aspirations of both parties for Jerusalem. A way must Baroness, Lady Deech, mentioned the virtue of the be found through negotiations to resolve the status of kind of approach outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Jerusalem as the future capital of both states. Stern, the other day: to make enterprise and business the way we can see Arabs and Israelis sew themselves In a few more of these precious minutes, I turn to a and work together again, rather than be in endless number of specific points raised. The noble Lord, conflict. The noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, Lord Dykes, spoke out very forcefully of his regrets took the side of those who said, like the Americans, about the position of the USA. Without necessarily that the UN was not the best forum for the way forward. approving of it—on the contrary, we voted the other way—I have tried to describe the view that the United I think I have covered everything, including the States took. He also urged, as have other of your question from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, about Lordships, both in this debate and many others, that the Foreign Secretary speaking with the Americans. we should talk to Hamas. The United Kingdom’s view He does so all the time. I have now run out of further is that we should not talk to them until it renounces time, so will say only that we believe in a peaceful and the ideology of violence, and that it should begin to safe future for Israel that is best secured through a emerge as part of the solution rather than part of the peace with the Palestinians which can, in turn, lead to problem. That is the view of the Government at this a peace with the entire region that will strengthen the time, although I know that some of your Lordships stability of the region. That is our hope and intention; disagree with it. we have demonstrated it by our position in the recent vote, and we have demonstrated it by our continuous My noble friend Lord Bates made an impassioned actions. We will continue to do so in order that we can plea to comply with UN resolutions and reminded us move forward through the agonising difficulties and of the vital point that the UN gave birth to Israel. divisions which this great issue has produced again Therefore, it is the duty of Israel to do all that it can to and again. 881 Israel[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 882

Public Bodies Bill [HL] Then I remember the Labour Party conferences in the north of England being dominated by the debate Committee (7th Day) (Continued) on the need for a regional strategy. Often at the forefront of those debates was the then north-east 8.38 pm Member of Parliament Ian Wrigglesworth—now Debate on Amendment 49 resumed. Sir Ian—who I understand the Government have brought in to help with their new regional strategy. Maybe that Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I intervene briefly is no longer true and my noble friends can correct me because I shall concentrate my remarks during proceedings if I am wrong, but I read somewhere that he has now on the Report stage of the Bill. I want to say a few been brought in. I remember it all as though it were words about how we need to consider what has happened yesterday. It was the debate that dominated all of my historically when considering the future of the 21 years in the House of Commons. development agencies. I believe that the closure of the RDAs, particularly in the north of England—and I remember the huge debate that was launched in when I talk about the north of England, I mean the the north in the early 1980s following the publication north-west, Yorkshire and Humberside and the north- of a paper entitled—I know my noble friends will east—is ill-advised and misconceived, and will ultimately remember this—Let’s Pull Together for a Better North. be damaging to the regions. If I recall correctly, it was a paper jointly sponsored by We really need to learn the lessons of history. My the late Joe Mills of the Transport and General Workers’ mind goes back to the early 1980s, around 30 years Union and the late Lord Burlison, who was in this ago, when I was a young MP. The debates in the House. I go on about this because history will repeat Commons at that time were totally dominated by the itself if we go down this route. Even at this late stage, decline in the regional economy in the north of the Government should revise their strategy. England—particularly in shipbuilding, steel, heavy engineering, mining and textiles. Week after week, 8.45 pm Question Time after Question Time, Labour MPs— The paper was closely followed by a substantial sometimes with Conservatives joining in as well—got piece of work—a paper published by my noble friend up to object to what was happening in the region and Lord Prescott on an alternative regional economic to ask how the problems of the region were to be strategy. He is not here but he was certainly in his resolved. I was a member of the northern group of place earlier. He will not mind my saying that it was a Labour MPs. We were constantly being lobbied by very significant paper for Labour MPs; it dominated industry, employer groups, the trade unions and the debates in the parliamentary party over several months. local authorities. The CBI in the northern region was It formed the embryo of the regional strategy that prominent in lobbying Labour Members of Parliament Labour subsequently adopted when we came into to ensure a change in the Government’s regional strategy government. There were innumerable debates in at that time. I remember a man called James Cran, Parliament on the need for a rethink on regional whom some of us might recall. He subsequently became strategy at the time. During that period there were the Member of Parliament for Beverley in Yorkshire only two Conservative Ministers who really understood but was then the leading figure in the northern CBI. I what was happening. One was a chap called Jim remember him appearing on Border Television and Lester. He was a Member of Parliament in a north-east television repeatedly, week after week, Nottinghamshire constituency—Beeston, if I remember demanding a reversal of the strategy and some alteration rightly. He had come from the shoe industry and he in regional policy. The cry was universal: “We need a was an employment and skills Minister. On the Labour regional strategy”. The constant refrain was, “The Benches, we always felt that he was the one who centre cannot deliver”, because the centre was not understood the problems that we had. Surprisingly delivering. Laissez-faire regional strategy, despite European there was another one, and it was Michael Heseltine. money, meant that the concentration of footloose He took the decision to establish the enterprise agencies. investment and capital accumulation more widely was Some of them went to the north of England, south in the south. That was our problem. Wales and the north-east. He also took the vital Time and again, the differential in house prices and decision to put money into Toxteth in Liverpool, the unemployment rates between the north and the south effect of which was to pump prime and bring in was cited as evidence of a north-south divide in economic additional money from the private sector for environment development. As the late John Smith put it 26 years improvements in Liverpool. The reason I mention ago, in a debate on regional policy and the need for a those two is that both men, in their own way, were regional strategy with agencies delivering, which I introducing measures to leverage in substantial private remember well from 17 January 1985: investment, a role which ultimately fell upon the broader “What is frightening is that the Government appear to be remit of the RDAs. They were carrying out the functions impervious to the damage that they are causing. As the economic which subsequently were to be carried out by the storm clouds gather over Britain and become more serious every RDAs set up by the Labour Government in 1997. day, the Government plunge blindly on 544 destroying as they go. When they are finally called to account, the missed opportunities I am reminded of the work of the Regional Policy and wanton destruction of regional development policy will, I Commission, a non-political initiative established by, hope, be high on the indictment”.—[Official Report, Commons, again, my noble friend Lord Prescott, and chaired by 17/1/85; cols. 543-44.] Bruce Millan, then European Commissioner for Regional I say that history will repeat itself. What John said Policy. The commission’s recommendations helped steer then will be relevant in these coming years unless there us towards the regional structures that we subsequently is a change in strategy by the Government. created. Indeed, by the mid-1990s and the eve of the 883 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 884

[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS] for us and making sure that the plan is developed to 1997 landslide Labour victory, there was widespread the full, not just thrown to the vagaries of the market. support from the CBI, the TUC, the chambers of What is sad about the Government having rushed commerce and all the political parties across the regions. into this ill considered Bill, with all its ill considered All opinion across the regions in the north was for an propositions that have not been properly researched, ambitious regional strategy under regional development investigated and analysed, is that we might have had a agencies, bringing in both domestic and European case for coming up with a review of regional policy. I money to fund investment in skills, training and agree with the argument that there was a great deal of regeneration of physical decay, small business services, room for adjustments to the regional structure. I am assistance to industry, innovation and inward investment not sure that my noble and very good friend Lord initiatives more widely. That is what we delivered Campbell-Savours will agree with me on this, but I am against this background of feverish debate in the a sceptic about whether Cumbria—particularly north 1980s and well into the 1990s. It is now all to be Cumbria, where I live—is in the right region. It seems destroyed. to me that the natural links of north Cumbria are with People throughout the north of England are worried the north-east—up around the coast, through Carlisle about these developments. I know that we have some and into Newcastle and the rest. We do not think of friends in there. It may well be that Vince Cable is Manchester and Liverpool. We think of the north-east. more sympathetic to our position than he makes public. Our health service is oriented in that direction. When I If he is, and if he is listening to this debate, let him needed neurosurgery, I ended up, through the National realise that we can no longer rely on Mr Pickles. We Health Service, in Newcastle. When I turn on my want him to intervene and indeed, in many ways, television in the evening, I see Newcastle-based television. perhaps undermine this strategy before it does damage There was therefore a case for a review to make sure in the region. If Mr Cable sympathises with our position, that the regions, in their administration and structure, let him use the structures within BIS, in a way perhaps were best geared to meet the real social challenges that that the Government are not intending at this stage, to were out there. However, instead of going down that bring about at least some residual regional structure exciting route, this new Government, who pride themselves that can deliver. I say that this is all now at risk, and we on being so radical and imaginative, just dodged all appeal even at this late stage for the Government to that and went for an ideological destruction of the reverse their position. regional development authorities at the very time that they were most needed. I know that the Minister Lord Judd: My Lords, I just wanted to follow my listens. He is a sensitive man and has not only a social noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours because he has conscience but a feel for social issues and people. I put so powerfully the case for the north, particularly urge him, even at this 11th hour plus, to plead with his with his origins in the north-west. He is, in every sense, colleagues and say, “This is a step too far. Think again”. a son of the north-west. He speaks with authority. I simply say that there is a cultural dimension to all Lord Empey: My Lords, I have been listening to the this. It has to be faced. There are many good people debate, but the truth is that there is no single solution living in the south-east, the south and more prosperous to economic development policy. There is no perfect parts of the Midlands who just have not seen for model. There is a variety of models throughout the themselves the social reality of what happened in the United Kingdom, some of which work better than north in the past. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and others. However, the amendment is a fairly blunt the noble Lord opposite have referred to Cumbria. instrument. The decision on the number of regional Just come to Cumbria. I often speak about the inheritance development agencies in England has to be taken in and the beauties of the national park, but come to the conjunction with the devolved regions. Until a few west coast of Cumbria and see the physical and living months ago, I had responsibility in Northern Ireland evidence of what happened before. The communities for certain aspects of economic development policy. are broken, disheartened and demoralised still. Prior to that, I had responsibility for establishing The challenges are huge and, given the economic Invest Northern Ireland, which at that time consisted stringency that faces the nation, this is the very time of some 700 staff and had a budget of about £160 million. that one needs strategic and powerful authorities to However, the whole scene has changed. I listened look after the interests of those who will find themselves carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, in the toughest position, as economic policy takes but what applies today is totally different from what effect. If we have any pretence of commitment to applied in the 1980s. Europe has a big influence in this, social justice, this is the very time that there should be because one of the big weapons that organisations in strong voices speaking, not just tactically but strategically, Scotland, Northern Ireland and elsewhere had was for the people of a region. Those voices should look at selective financial assistance. Since 1 January, that the issues of communications and transport, and at assistance has been largely reducing and by 2013 it will the work that can be done with the universities in the be virtually gone. Therefore, the model that we used north, to find ways of regenerating and building a new for distributing it and the mechanism that we used for future. trying to bid for foreign direct investment are going to Some will argue that in Cumbria we will have the be denied us. All that will be left is soft assistance, with one bright prospect of becoming the energy coast of management plans and various other things, but the Britain. If that is a prospect—and I fervently hope hardcore employment grants and capital grants that that we can make a contribution in that context—this regions depended on to buy in business and investors is the time that we need a strategic authority speaking will be denied us because of European regulations. 885 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 886

I can tell the Committee that a protocol exists east Belfast. The people at my advice centres are within the United Kingdom to prevent all the different queueing up, looking for help with DLA, housing RDAs, the regional administrations and the national benefit and how we can get them training, so I am very Government from bidding against each other. Foreign familiar with all of that. But having elaborate structures direct investors are not stupid. They knew that people today, whether they be in Northern Ireland, in Scotland in the regions were hungry and they went about their or anywhere else, is not the whole answer. There is business going from one to the other. We had to another dimension. establish protocols. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, will be well aware that we have another dimension in Northern Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Is it not the case that the Ireland, where we are up against the Republic, which noble Lord in Northern Ireland, we in Scotland and has a very attractive corporation tax rate. At the end colleagues in Wales will continue to have development of the day, that was attracting more inward investment agencies, so why is he denying them to the regions of to that region than anything that any of our industrial England? development organisations could do. Local government also has a role to play. There is Lord Empey: First, I have not denied anybody no model that is absolutely applicable in every part of anything. I am just beginning to develop my argument. the UK. I would be very afraid to take a position on The fundamental point is that these organisations in the north-east of England, about which a vast array of the devolved regions are becoming systematically weaker. people seem to be extremely passionate. The noble They have less ability to direct financial aid because Baroness, Lady Armstrong of Hill Top, made a powerful the selective financial assistance, which was their principal speech in respect of what she saw in her region and weapon, is diminishing very rapidly and in a couple of many other noble Lords, including the noble Lords, years’ time will be gone altogether. The whole emphasis Lord Bates and Lord Greaves, spoke on it as well. is shifting on to the development of skills. We had a fantastic conference in the United States last September and October hosted by the State Department at which Lord Greaves: I actually spoke about the north-west we were given the opportunity to put Northern Ireland’s and not the north-east, but I will back the north-east case. What was really interesting to potential investors as well. was no longer grant aid; it was whether a region had a sufficient centre of gravity and critical mass of skilled Lord Empey: The noble Lord was saying at one people with the right skills in the right place to attract stage, if I recall, that part of his region felt that it people. You can no longer buy in companies. belonged to the north-east. The point is that there is a Sitting in the Chamber tonight is the noble Lord, large pool of people who feel passionately that the Lord Ballyedmond, one of our premier entrepreneurs. north-east in particular has a critical mass and should I dealt with him and his colleagues on a number of have representation. I know that the noble Lord, Lord occasions, and they were frustrated because the agencies Prescott, attempted to offer regional government to and organisations could sometimes get in the way of that region and it did not want it at that stage. Otherwise, business. Therefore, the question is: what is the right I dare say, it would have, just as Scotland and London balance? Is it going to be possible to develop a national and other places have, its own economic development policy that will allow for the creation of the correct unit, probably with a Minister working full-time on skill base? That will be far more important to foreign that area. direct investment—and indeed, I believe, to indigenous The question for us is whether this is going to be investment—than financial aid in the future because solved simply by structures or by a combination of the latter is going to be reduced and will be so small. I structures and a policy involving close linkages with remember examples of £20,000 being offered per job higher and further education and training. I am not created and perhaps even more. On average, it was convinced, having established one of these bodies in £7,000, £8,000 or £10,000 per job created, but those the past, that the model that we need to go forward for days are gone and are not coming back. I certainly feel the next 10 or 20 years is necessarily the model that we that this list of agencies is no longer sustainable but, at have adopted in the past. I am not saying that everything the same time, it is perfectly clear that you cannot that is being proposed by the Secretary of State is the create a complete vacuum. right solution. Local people in those areas would have a better grasp of that than I would have from a Lord Campbell-Savours: If the responsibility that distance. But I no longer put my faith in the structures. the noble Lord is referring to in the case of Northern When you talk to businesspeople, they are very dismissive Ireland were transferred to London, does he believe of bureaucracy. Their real interest is not in any grants that the centre in London could deliver? that you can offer them; it is whether you have the people on the ground who can do the job. That is the 9pm thing that matters most. Lord Empey: I have always been a devolutionist and There seems to be a new dimension opening up. I felt that there had to be a local dimension to most do not have all the answers and it is not entirely clear things. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, was asking whether that the Secretary of State for Business has them people fully understood the social and other implications either. But things have changed dramatically in the of what has been happening in this country over past few years, not least because of Europe and what it recent years. The answer for me is yes. I still have a is now deciding. We have signed up to that. The ability constituency. It is largely an inner-city constituency in of local organisations to take strategic decisions and 887 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 888

[LORD EMPEY] It is clear that the Government have set out on a effectively to buy in the businesses that come to invest process not on the basis of what is best for the regions has diminished. We have to be aware of what is happening or best individually for each of the English regions, in the rest of Europe. We feel that people in other but on the straightforward basis that they do not like parts of Europe do not apply the rules as strictly and RDAs and want to abolish them. What has happened rigorously as we do. I am sure that noble Lords from in the south-west, which I suspect has happened in all Scotland and elsewhere have had that repeated to regions, is that business men and women who some them time and again. We play by the rules while others months ago were not particularly supportive of the ignore them. That is one source of considerable concern RDA are now saying that with the abolition of the to people in the regions, who feel that we are not RDA in prospect, the government office for the region necessarily playing on a level pitch. going and regional planning disappearing, they do not When one is next door to a region where there is know who to talk to if they want to put together a 12.5 per cent corporation tax versus what we have, deal, if they want to try to bring in public and private that is what I call real competition. It is something to partnerships, if they want to make arrangements to which no individual organisation, whether regionally develop the skills within the region that will achieve based or otherwise, has a solution on its own. I am for delivery of the ideas that they, as entrepreneurs, have. regional solutions but I am no longer putting my faith They are asking, “Who do we talk to?”. simply in the structures that we develop. Those structures At the same time, the big potential investors are themselves sometimes get in the way of business; they asking precisely the same question. The areas that frustrate businesspeople and, of course, they are very miss out are going to be the more peripheral ones in expensive. Whether we have the balance right remains the north and the west of the country and maybe to be seen and I have no doubt that there will be in parts of East Anglia and the Midlands as well. In further debate to establish that. London, there is always somebody to talk to. In Wales and Scotland you have government-backed organisations but in these other regions you have not. It is not just a Lord Whitty: My aim is to speak to Amendment 56 question of the industrial heartlands; we are talking which deals with the south-west region. It is not simply about rural counties in the south-west. Indeed, it is to convince the Committee that there are concerns on not a question of the Labour heartlands, in case these Benches somewhat south of Watford, but as my Members opposite feel that we are parti pris to this—these noble friend Lord Knight spelt out before the break, are the heartlands of the Liberal Democrats and many the South-West Regional Development Agency has Tories as well. As the consequences of the disappearance done a fantastic job in many respects, from projects of the RDA and the regional offices of government such as the Eden project through to the Osprey Quay become clear, I imagine that many of the MPs in their in his previous constituency where I was only a couple parties are going to have deputations from businesses of weeks ago, through to the deals with the universities, and from local government asking how to deal with this. science parks, and so forth. The majority of its interventions have been relatively small and, to respond What has happened in the south-west and what to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, most of what the people now fear in the south-west is that there is no regional development agency has done has involved point at which small businesses can talk to Government not large sums of money but soft policies, such as about their problems and there is no point at which putting together patches of land, developing skills, outside investors can talk on a regional or sub-regional getting people talking to each other who do not normally basis with some authority behind those discussions. talk to each other, in the universities, professional What will they do? They will go elsewhere. It is true, of associations, local government and small businesses. course, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, says, that the interventions will not be so much financial in the The South-West Regional Development Agency may future, although there will be some money there and not have had the right geographical boundaries and it there will be money in things such as the European was probably not as universally loved as those in the Regional Development Fund and money from the north-east appear to be, but the prospect of its agricultural side of this dimension. However, they will absence is causing deep and grave concern among say it is easier to do this in France or Germany or small businesses and others within the region. Its Spain. It may be slightly easier to do it in London or replacement by the so-called LEPs is a shambles. It is a Scotland or Wales but with nobody to talk to in crazy situation. The Government who profess to want dispersed regions such as the south-west the absence localism and to have industry-led alternatives to the of the RDA will come to be a dreadful brake on agency have ended up with a situation where Whitehall developments which were beginning to see fruition. is telling groups of business people and others who I do not think that is what the political representatives put their heads above the parapet what the basis to of the south-west would wish to see. I do not therefore organise should be. On what basis is the man in think it is what the coalition Government would wish Whitehall telling the putative LEPs in the M4 belt in to see. But by their own universal decree that RDAs Gloucester, Swindon and Wiltshire that that is not the are bad, that is likely to be the consequence. appropriate sub-region? It seems a very appropriate sub-region to me and, more importantly, to them. Yet, they are being told that it is not the right region. Baroness Harris of Richmond: My Lords, before we People in Dorset—in Bournemouth and Poole—are remove RDAs entirely from our lexicon, I would like being told to talk to Southampton and the Solent to put on record the really excellent work done by areas. Why? How is that allowing local businesses to Yorkshire Forward. I make no apology for being parochial. decide on their own remits? It has helped nearly 30,000 businesses a year to improve 889 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 890 performance, which is one in 12 of the region’s business, The noble Lord mentioned the difficulties faced by the with a typical turnover gain for each of those businesses Republic of Ireland because of its economic policies. of around £15,000 a year. About one in 30 people in As I understand it, it has been in a little difficulty the region’s workforce are in a job because of Yorkshire recently, has it not? The noble Lord talks about Stormont, Forward’s work in the past five years. It has been one where power is devolved. I think he will understand of the two most successful regional development agencies that we want the best for our regions as well. I agree at turning investment into jobs. with him completely on one thing; this is about training. Yorkshire Forward was created in 1999, and by If that is left completely to industry, it might well, as it 2000 it was already investing in business parks in small has in the past, go to the south-east rather than to the rural areas in my particular part of north Yorkshire, other regions. As has been said tonight, whether noble making a huge difference to those communities. Through Lords have been speaking about the north-east, the its investment, it was to lever several millions of Objective 2 north-west—as has the noble Lord, Lord Greaves—or European funding into my local district, and other regions, such as the south-west, which my noble transformational projects were initiated through the friend Lord Whitty spoke about, it is about ensuring pilot Renaissance Market Towns programme. In my that provision is spread more widely than the south-east, town of Richmond, money was granted to the award- which, if it was left to the market, is where it would go. winning Georgian Theatre Royal. One project that is Because of that, I am totally against the Government’s dear to my heart and which we would have had great proposal and hope that, in the light of the debate and difficulty getting off the ground—I played a small certain disquiet, as I sense it, from part of the coalition, fundraising role with our local MP—was the award- they might just think again about their policy. winning station development and the award-winning The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, raised this issue, but heritage partnership scheme. None of these would I want to speak a little more about what the Northwest have taken place without the foresight and the funding Regional Development Agency has done and what of Yorkshire Forward. successes it has had. In doing so, I pay tribute to the Over the years, its investment helped to transform chairman, Robert Hough, and his colleagues, and the Richmond from an underperforming market town to dedicated staff for their vision when they were led by Great Town of the Year in 2009. It is interesting to Steve Broomhead, who until recently was the chief note that the Academy of Urbanism has awarded that executive. I want to spell out more concretely for the national accolade to three Yorkshire towns—Richmond, Minister what the agency has done for the community. Scarborough and Hebden Bridge—by a vote of its It has created or safeguarded just over 220,000 jobs; it members over the five years for which it has been run. has created 23,000 new businesses; it has reclaimed All those towns had strategic investment through Yorkshire 4,000 hectares of brownfield land; and it has levered in Forward’s Renaissance Market Towns programme. £3.2 billion of private sector investment. This is quite Because of the speed at which Yorkshire Forward has a record in itself. been disbanded, funding contracted to complete the Data from the independent evaluation by PwC of Richmond heritage partnership scheme had to be the north-west’s development activity over the period withdrawn. It would have brought redundant property 2002-07 reported—and this is very important—that, back into economic use and, at the same time, restored for every £1 invested, the Northwest Regional the character of that beautiful Georgian market town. Development Agency had achieved a £5.20 increase in That is indeed a most terrible shame. GVA. Independent X-ray inspections by the NAO in 9.15 pm 2007 showed that the NWDA was performing strongly. The regional growth fund is about jobs, so it will At the time, this was the top mark possible. A subsequent almost certainly go to large companies, not to the report in 2010—let us bring things more up to date— SMEs that need it. Important though the large companies showed that the NWDA was strong on reprioritising are, it is equally important to help and support the to deal with the economic challenges of the recession. communities that need funding to keep small businesses That will be lost to us. Recently, the NWDA moved from falling apart. Where, in future, will we get the into the IiP gold standard. The big thing about this in money to keep our rural communities going, providing relation to development agencies generally and the jobs for people and maintaining and improving the north-west in particular is that they built on the region’s infrastructure? heritage and strengths to provide the investment where it was needed—that is the important thing—and the Perhaps I may make a suggestion? I was talking leadership and support to ensure that the places, assets earlier to one of the Lords’ most sympathetic and and industries of the north-west were best able to seize thoughtful Members, who will remain anonymous. He the opportunities for a sustainable future. suggested that it would be a good idea to offer tax breaks to individuals or companies that offered matched The Northwest Regional Development Agency funding for a project. I commend that excellent idea to supported the north-west in dealing with the tremors my noble friend and ask him to look carefully into and shocks—particularly economic shocks—that can that. We also need to look at the mountains of red appear. They dealt with foot and mouth, which was tape surrounding applications for even small sums of very important in Cumbria in particular, and with the funding. That, too, should be addressed. I hope that more recent flooding in Cumbria, getting practical the Minister will carefully consider those suggestions. support to businesses within four days of the floods. All that was very important indeed, especially in Cumbria. Lord Hoyle: This has been a very interesting debate Could that be done by any other agency? I do not on RDAs so far. I refer to some of the remarks of the think so. The agency has also worked with partners to noble Lord, Lord Empey, before I develop my theme. attract, host and develop a legacy from a wide range of 891 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 892

[LORD HOYLE] A bit nearer home to me in Warrington is the events in the north-west, including the extremely successful Daresbury Science and Innovation Campus. Investment Commonwealth Games—which everyone remembers— and leadership from the agency to create a critical and Liverpool as the European capital of culture. This mass of research knowledge, expertise and capacity was largely based on the funds that came. The agency has resulted in extensive spillover with over 100 high-tech led the development of economic strategy in the region enterprises now located in the Daresbury Innovation and produced the strategies needed. The important Centre. They benefited from all the help they were thing was that it brought together the regional agencies given by the agency. Are we going to throw all that to develop the whole of the north-west economy, from away? Cheshire in the south to Cumbria in the north-west. The noble Lord talked about RDAs competing. Let me go even further and develop in more detail Does he imagine that the local enterprise partnerships how the agency played a part in the regeneration of will not compete with each other? I do not know Ancoats in east Manchester. In 2002, it undertook where he is coming from. The RDA was split into England’s largest compulsory purchase order to regenerate Cumbria, Greater Manchester, Liverpool city region, Ancoats, revitalising historic cotton mills and ensuring Cheshire and Warrington, plus—the noble Lord, Lord the north-west’s history as the birthplace of the industrial Greaves, mentioned one of them—possibly three revolution, while bringing back derelict buildings for overlapping supporting approaches for local enterprise new economic use. partnerships in Lancashire. Indeed, as he said, a lot of Let us talk a little about what they did in Liverpool. work has been done in a territory that both of us As Members here understand, the agency invested know well: the Pendle area and Burnley. There is the heavily in the regeneration of Liverpool’s waterfront, Blackburn with Darwen Borough Council, and an particularly the world famous “Three Graces” and the approach is being made by Blackpool, Fylde and Albert Dock. How will we do that in the future? It Wyre. All these can go together in relation to it. The helped to secure the arena, the convention centre and question is whether that will be the powerful voice that the new museum. It reopened the Leeds-Liverpool the RDA has been in the past. I do not think so. The Canal, as we know, and the Mann Island development. needs of the whole region will be neglected. I am These investments have paved the way for a fully afraid that the competition between the two cities of private sector-funded redevelopment of Liverpool’s Manchester and Liverpool will be to the detriment of city centre. How will we do that without an agency the rest of the region. That is what we are hoping to that looks at the whole region? get away from. We hope to look at the north-west region as a whole. That is the way in which we should I am sorry if I am going on a bit but, because we go, but I am sorry that the Government have taken have been talking about development agencies, I want this approach. They have taken the idea— to put into context what has happened in the north-west. On businesses, the agency secured support for the 9.30 pm nuclear industry, the supply chains, and the Nuclear Lord Greaves: I wonder whether the noble Lord—as Decommissioning Authority in west Cumbria. It also he says, both of us know the Pennines well—will agree secured the national skills academy, the nuclear that when a region such as the north-west finally gets a headquarters and the flagship energy facility in west complete set of local enterprise partnerships, or LEPs, Cumbria. We have talked a lot about west Cumbria whatever pattern it is, what will happen—and it is because it is an area that could be forgotten. It has already being discussed—is that at regional level all been said that it should perhaps have been with the the LEPs will come together to form some sort of north-east, but let us say what has actually been done. association or confederation of LEPs to recreate a I notice my noble friend, who made a very powerful structure at a regional level. However you look at it, speech, nodding his head in agreement with what I am this will be necessary. saying in relation to this. Let us take Business Link Northwest. In 2007, the Lord Hoyle: I could not agree more with the noble development agency launched a one-stop regional business Lord. Of course that is what is going to happen. link service to provide a primary access point for Something is being tossed away needlessly by the business support in 2008 and 2009. Over 92,000 businesses Government in a very hasty decision, without due accepted the service, which was a 30 per cent increase thought being given to either region. I certainly agree on the previous subregional arrangements, with an with him that these things will need to come together 89 per cent customer satisfaction rate. What it has if the various regions throughout the country are to done is worth recalling. We talked earlier about skills. benefit. Unless we do that—unless we get them The noble Lord talked about the need for them. In together—we have failed. I am so sorry that they are Manchester, in 2004, the Victoria University of being split up in this way, only for them all to come Manchester and UMIST combined to form a single together under another name, as the noble Lord, Lord university. The investment by the development agency Greaves, says. In view of the pleas that have been made helped to pave the way for integrating the two institutions from these Benches and from other Benches, particularly and enabled the construction of new state of the art from the Benches within the coalition—they seem to facilities. As a result of the help that it received, the sit a little bit apart at times—will the Government University of Manchester is now Europe’s largest please think again before destroying the RDAs? single-campus university, with over 27,000 undergraduate students. It is steadily climbing in the rankings to one Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I speak to of the top universities in the world, not just in this Amendment 51, which opposes the abolition of the country. East of England Development Agency. I am perhaps a 893 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 894 lonely voice for the east, although it is a region that I reclaimed 72 hectares of land. It has also supported know the Minister knows well, so I look for some projects such as the Hethel technology park in its bid particular favour in his response tonight. I do not to be a globally recognised centre of excellence for think that the east as a region has the innate identity low-carbon engineering and manufacturing. The that we have heard about tonight, particularly with the Cambridge rural enterprise and mentoring initiative is north-east and the passion that goes with that. We are encouraging start-ups in economically disadvantaged probably a bit more like the south-west; we have parts of the region. grown to be a region. Before I develop my theme, I just say in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, The East of England Manufacturing Advisory Service who I think was arguing for the benefits of some has supported Vacuumatic, the world leader in paper regional selective tax breaks, that selective tax breaks counting technology, to implement lean manufacturing can be good for job creation, but mostly for accountants principles. Over the past 10 years, EEDA has invested and lawyers. For me, it is a slippery slope and we need £81 million directly in the Hertfordshire economy, to think about it very hard. helping some 22,600 businesses to start up. Highly skilled jobs for research companies are to be created as I take this opportunity to reflect on the opportunities part of a £120 million expansion of the GlaxoSmithKline for the east, which EEDA has encapsulated in its bioscience campus at Stevenage. Some £8 million has Blueprint for Growth, and on why the fragmentation of helped to support small life science companies and to the regional effort will diminish those opportunities. I protect jobs in the biopark in Welwyn Garden City. caution that the replacement local enterprise partnerships EEDA investment has regenerated Ipswich waterfront. are no substitute for the RDA. In any event, in the east EEDA has also invested in the Haven Gateway some 27 per cent of the population and 26 per cent of Partnership, the single most important cluster of ports the businesses will not be covered by a LEP. in the UK. Everywhere you look in the region, it is My first encounter with the RDA was about a possible to see the impact of the RDA. decade ago, as leader of the council, when we heard Looking back is one thing, but what of the future? the news that the Vauxhall car plant was to close; in One in every nine UK businesses is based in the east of fact it was—would you believe?—heard over the radio England—more than 430,000. Business investment in while people were still working on the production line. R&D is three times higher than the UK average. It has I did my job as leader of the council in my office in the most successful life sciences cluster outside the US. Luton town hall; I sent off a fax to the chief executive The world-renowned Cambridge technology cluster is of General Motors in Detroit demanding that it rescind in the region representing 1,400 companies and employing this closure notice. I still await a reply. It was the RDA 43,000 people. The east of England has significant that sprung into action and convened a strong local capability in both mature and developing high-value partnership, which took action around skills training, knowledge-based markets. It is already a major generator supply chain diversification, job placement, investment and supplier of energy, including leading the way in and infrastructure. It was the RDA’s efforts that made renewable energy generation, which makes it the centre a significant difference to the local economy and to of one of the world’s largest markets for offshore wind literally thousands of local people in Luton and the energy and the UK’s most dense area of offshore surrounding area. development between the Humber, the Greater Wash EEDA has a clear mission to improve the economy and the Thames estuary. of the east of England. It works across the six counties of Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Despite these successes, the region requires a skills Norfolk and Suffolk. The east of England is one of base that better suits its needs. There are disparities in the fastest-growing regions in the UK in terms of economic performance within the region and areas population. It is a beautiful and diverse region, rich such as Luton have high deprivation. The region suffers with cultural heritage and international trade links. It from an infrastructure deficit, with congestion on the can be proud of its many achievements, but it faces transport network costing the UK more than £1 billion many challenges, especially from intensifying global per annum. There is only one commercial broadband competition. network in the east of England, which provides coverage to only around 60 per cent of the region. Despite the lack of homogeneity across the region, EEDA’s efforts have been spread right across the area—in It is at this time of huge opportunities but significant its impact in Bedfordshire borough, central Bedfordshire challenges that the Government choose to pull the and Luton, for example. In the past 10 years, EEDA plug on the agency that has been at the heart of the has invested more than £100 million in this sub-region. success of the east of England and best placed to Some 6,000 jobs have been created or safeguarded, address its challenges. In parallel, they are killing off 13,000 people have improved skills, 1,000 businesses regional spatial strategies. There is a continuing need have been helped to start or grow, 2,300 people have for joined-up interventions in support of skills, been supported into employment and 43 hectares of infrastructure, business support and supply chain brownfield land have been reclaimed. Funding of the managers. UK Centre for Carnival Arts in Luton has created a The focus that the RDA brought to the region is national centre for carnival excellence, boosting the being scattered, as we heard from others, in all sorts of local economy and the cultural heritage. directions—the EU programme to DCLG and Defra, In Norfolk over that period, EEDA similarly has inward investment to UKTI, manufacturing support created or safeguarded some 6,000 jobs, improved the to BIS, and Business Link, eventually, to some national skills of 22,000 people, helped 1,100 start-ups and scheme. Other noble Lords have mentioned issues of 895 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 896

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] dramatically since that time. That update has been asset disposal. One of the issues that need to be placed in the Library and I will build on this information addressed, especially when regeneration funding is in the course of my remarks. involved, is the potential for clawbacks, particularly We set out the rationale for our proposals in the for local authorities. Local Growth White Paper, which was published in So much for localism. The local enterprise partnership October 2010. One key theme in the document is the does not cover the whole region; it covers parts of need to shift power to local communities and businesses. three old RDAs. By all accounts the process locally fits We believe that localities should lead their own the Cable description of being, development and have the flexibility to tailor their “a little Maoist and chaotic”. approach to this and to their individual circumstances. As we have heard, LEPs have inadequate funding, If this is to work, they must own their own economic there are no significant resources for their development strategy; one imposed from regional or national level and local authorities are going to be very hard pressed would not have this local ownership. For all the good to fund even the secretarial support. It is not too late work that they did, the RDAs did not really belong to to draw back from the hasty and ill thought-through the communities within the regions. Many of the decision to abolish RDAs. The east of England will policies and initiatives that they delivered were on certainly be less well placed to realise its potential behalf of national government and did not always without the RDA. This is a loss not only for the region recognise the varied needs and opportunities that but for UK plc. individual places have. The RDAs were also designed around administrative Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I begin by regions rather than real economic geography. While it thanking noble Lords for their contributions to this would be possible to discuss this matter in the context debate. It has been an excellent opportunity to consider of every one of the individual RDAs, I would like to the expertise that this House can provide on a subject discuss two specific examples now. My first example is covering all points of the United Kingdom. I understand the south-west region, stretching from Swindon in the the passion; I speak as a provincial myself. We are all east to Penzance in the west and covering an enormous in politics, to a lesser or greater extent, simply because geographical and economic range, from the prosperous we believe in where we come from and in the communities and relatively well connected places in the upper Thames from which we originate and because we care about valley to relatively isolated and deprived areas in Cornwall. the people with whom we live and work. However, Bristol has many problems in common with our largest there may be other ways of dealing with the imbalances cities—those of economic success and of economic in the economy in the United Kingdom and I ask inclusion. The issues faced in rural parts of the region noble Lords to listen to the argument as to why the are quite different. Linkages, too, differ, with parts of Government are proposing a changed approach. Given the region having close ties to London, the south-east, the breadth and detail of this debate, I regret that I am the West Midlands and Wales, and others having no not likely to be able to respond to every point that has such link at all. The relevant policies in each case are been raised, but I assure noble Lords that I will go quite different. RDAs sought to address that problem through the record and seek to answer the points in a and to recognise the differences within their regions, letter, which I will circulate to all noble Lords who but it makes no real sense to establish a single body to have spoken this evening. cover the entire region and to expect it somehow to understand and cope with that huge variety. It is far The Government’s economic ambition is to create a better for the local partners in Bristol to develop fairer and better balanced economy. We wish to see policies dealing with the specific issues that they face business opportunities in a broad range of sectors and for those in Cornwall to do likewise. balanced across the country and between businesses. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, spoke with experience 9.45 pm and authority and indicated that the real challenge of Lord Knight of Weymouth: I do not want to delay building investment and providing job opportunities the House, because I know that there is other business was probably outside the traditional structures represented that we want to get done. The Minister is talking by the RDAs. Our Local Growth White Paper sets out about the south-west, where the rivalries between how we will put businesses and local communities in Plymouth and Cornwall are well known; left to their charge of their own futures, rather than having to rely own devices, the Tamar will remain the border between on centrally imposed regional development agencies. them and it will be difficult to persuade a LEP to form If I may say so, I felt that some of the speeches across that river. But I also think that it is very difficult confused the effectiveness of critical mass with the to see in economic geography terms how you can greater strength of coherence and real local empowerment develop parts of Cornwall and Devon without taking and focus. into account Plymouth and the city region approach. The amendments that we are debating as a group That relationship between a deprived rural county, would preserve the regional development agencies as a Cornwall, and the only major city and centre of whole, or those in specified individual regions. We population needs to be thought through in terms of believe that preserving all or any of them would be a economic strategy, but the LEP approach will not do retrograde step. In December, we placed in the Library that. of the House a short briefing paper, which sets out the reasons for abolishing the RDAs and gives a snapshot Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I am grateful to the noble of the situation in each region. This has now been Lord for that intervention, because it gives me the updated. Indeed, the number of LEPs has increased opportunity to respond by saying that there is almost 897 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 898 a mathematical relationship between size and the completely out of step with pretty well every other importance of the boundary that exists between different country in Europe of a similar size. It really risks regions. One difficulty with regional boundaries is that England becoming the most centralised country in the they are frequently quite dramatic, although there whole of western Europe. While what he says about may be a geographical coherence. I am a Fenman. The LEPS and putting the emphasis at a more local level Fens are in the eastern region, about which the noble might well be a perfectly acceptable way forward, the Lord, Lord McKenzie, spoke, but they are also in the real problem is that the LEPs are being deprived of east Midlands. Yet it makes sense for them to work pretty well all the resources which the RDAs and together as a geographical whole. One great advantage regional bodies have at the moment. Therefore, unless of the LEP approach is that, when the models are they are lucky enough to get some of this relatively smaller, the boundaries are slightly less severe and small amount of regional development fund money, there is an opportunity for LEPs to work together. they are going to be toothless. That is the whole point of the policy—to create greater flexibility in how the units of economic development Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I should remind the noble can work together where they wish to. That supports Lord that I do not consider £1.4 billion in the regional the argument of One North East and the degree to growth fund to be insignificant. I know noble Lords which common policies across the north-east can work. may well feel—and they clearly do—that it is better I accept that it is possible to have a different point of that the taxpayer should fund large redistributions view, but I am telling noble Lords how we see this. If through RDAs. There may be other ways where we really want to address the regional imbalance in economic policy can be directed, as my noble friend this country, we have not succeeded with RDAs. Lady Harris of Richmond mentioned. She talked Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top: Does the Minister about tax incentives. Far be it for me, as a very lowly accept that the Government are out of step with member of the Government, to challenge the Treasury virtually everyone in the north-east? on tax incentives, but there are different ways of doing these things other than handing out taxpayers’ largesse. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I take a great deal of I emphasise that that is the way in which this Government comfort from my noble friend Lord Bates, who shares are thinking. my view of the ability of the north-east to develop Perhaps if I talk about the north-east, I might be common policies where it wishes to do so. There are steering into danger. I am not too frightened of doing individual differences between Teeside, Tyneside and so because we should recognise that the north-east Wearside. You would not want to say you were in does not have a single monolithic economy. The region Newcastle when you were in Washington—I remember has a varied economic geography, with significant somebody getting into terrible trouble for doing so. economic poles, across the Rivers Tyne and Wear and Locality is very specific and the north-east has different the River Tees. Each place has a different industrial characteristics. It is not homogenous and there are heritage and different strengths, opportunities and methods of getting economic development in the north- threats. The local authorities in Tees Valley have a east which do not depend on having a single body to strong track record in working together and were deliver it. A coalition of different bodies with a common quick to put forward an application to form a local policy may well be a much more effective method for enterprise partnership. This argues that they recognise doing so. the benefits of these new arrangements. A partnership I gave way to my noble friend when I was talking has now been established, covering the authorities in about the West Country. If I might take Bristol as an the rest of the region. As Vince Cable has made clear, example, it is far better for the local partners to this is not to say that some form of co-operative develop policies for the specific issues it faces, and for arrangement across the north-east is not justified if Cornwall to do likewise. I strongly believe that any local partners want it. I said that at Second Reading economies of scale that a regional approach may have and I have just said it again. However, I strongly are more than outweighed by an absence of local question whether a regional development agency, with knowledge and commitment and the consequent loss all its attendant complexity and bureaucracy, is necessary of responsiveness to local circumstances. In response to achieve this. to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, who asked why the The previous Government gave RDAs the task of Gloucester, Swindon and Wiltshire LEP was rejected, narrowing the gap in growth rates between the prosperous I would say that, although there was some business region of the greater south-east and the rest of England, support for the proposal, other businesses in the area and provided them with significant resources over a felt that a different geographical approach was right. sustained period to help them achieve this. However, it Ministers have gone back and asked the partners to was a target that they failed to meet. Between 1990 discuss their proposals again in order to develop an and 1999, the real gross value added per head in the approach which takes the full range of local views into greater south-east grew by around 1.8 per cent in each account. So the matter is not concluded; it is still year, compared with around 1.4 per cent in the other under debate, and the Government await evidence on six regions—a gap of 0.4 of a percentage point. Between which to make their decision. 1999 and 2009, annual growth in the greater south-east fell to 1.4 per cent, compared to 0.8 per cent in the Lord Greaves: I will give my noble friend a slight other regions—a gap of 0.6 of a percentage point. rest. Does he not accept that, not only are the Government Therefore, the gap in growth rates has widened by apparently out of step with what most people in the around 0.2 of a percentage point. It is time to try a north-east think, but their thinking on regionalism is new policy, even in the north-east. 899 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 900

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] focus of the measures and will lead to real jobs and As the White Paper makes clear, we are encouraging skills. Without a skills base, we have no opportunity of businesses, local authorities and their partners to develop building the jobs and the industries that will provide local enterprise partnerships based on real economic employment in the future. areas, rather than artificial administrative regions. The new partnerships are based on where people live Lord Hoyle: Will the Minister say why he thinks he and work. Businesses and civic leaders will work together will develop skills better than the RDAs have done? to drive sustainable economic growth and create the conditions for private sector job growth in their Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The skills will be developed communities. Partners have responded to this invitation as part of the skills policy of the Government. My in an enthusiastic and innovative way. So far, honourable friend in another place, the Minister, Mr John 31 partnerships have been asked to form boards, covering Hayes, has recently announced a skills strategy for the 87 per cent of England’s population and a similar country. If we have not debated it in this House, it is proportion of businesses. We are actively engaged because we have been very busy debating other things. with partners in the remaining areas, helping them to However, it is a very important strategy, and it is part develop proposals that will meet our broad criteria. and parcel of the strategy for economic growth in this I reassure the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, country. that five LEPs have been asked to establish their bases Perhaps I may continue to describe the regional in areas that cover the east of England. I assure the growth fund. It is intended to encourage private sector noble Lord that there will be partnerships covering the enterprise and create sustainable jobs. In particular, it entire region. There will be no businesses or parts of is designed to help places currently reliant on the the population that are not covered by an LEP. public sector to make the transition to private sector-led growth. I suspect that there is a feeling across the Baroness Whitaker: What the noble Lord has to say House that this is important. Once again we are about LEPs does not exactly fit the situation of Newhaven, encouraging proposals to come from the bottom up, where the LEP is just wrong for it. responding to local circumstances. When the first round of bidding closed at the end of January, we had received nearly 450 proposals, showing that there is a 10 pm significant appetite for an approach of this kind. My Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I was coming to the noble friend Lord Heseltine is chairing the panel which whole business of Newhaven. I am grateful to the will be selecting the best of these proposals; and noble noble Baroness for mentioning earlier that she wanted Lords have referred to my noble friend in contributions to talk about Newhaven. As she will know, Newhaven to this debate. Noble Lords will need no reminding is currently covered by the LEP for East Sussex, Kent that encouraging growth throughout the country is a and Essex. It is perfectly possible for Newhaven and cause dear to his heart. the Lewes district to work with the Coast to Capital LEP as well. The whole point is that boundaries are Lord Greaves: I apologise for intervening again. not as important with LEPs as they are with RDAs. I The resources may be significant, as the Minister said, hope that Newhaven’s position will indeed be recognised but they are considerably less than the resources available by Lewes District Council in the way that it operates at the moment, either through RDA or through the within the LEP framework. It is perfectly at liberty to regional housing pots and all the other resources, do just that. which are being either dramatically cut back or scrapped I come to a few other parts of the country; we have altogether. Is not the problem that many of these mentioned everywhere, I suspect. There is perhaps an places that have put forward good, exciting schemes example of cross-regional development that I should and want to get ahead will be denied a penny because also draw your Lordships’ attention to. The partnership they will not win the competition that the noble Lord, in the south-east Midlands attempted to deal with an Lord Heseltine, is presiding over? economic area in which the former regional boundaries were particularly irrational and obstructive—the area Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I cannot guarantee that around Milton Keynes, which the noble Lord, Lord all the 450 proposals will find funding. However, I can McKenzie of Luton, will know. To an extent, the be sure that the ones for which funding is found will be RDAs recognised this but they were largely ineffective successful and provide opportunities for the people in in responding because their structures hampered them those areas. from doing so. The local partners do recognise it fully, and they are basing their proposals around a practical Lord Beecham: Can the Minister indicate in monetary response, and I regard this as progress. terms the extent of the bids that have been made? The White Paper also described the regional growth fund, which, as I said, is worth £1.4 billion over three Lord Taylor of Holbeach: No, I do not have that years. This is money to be spent outside the south-east information available, but we know the amount of of England. This complements the other measures money that is available for the fund, which I have that the Government are taking to support growth stated. through investment and to provide support for education Finally, noble Lords raised the question of what and skills. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, emphasised will happen to RDA assets and activities. There has the role of skills, improvements in competition and been some concern that there might be a fire sale. That support for research and innovation. These are the is not the case. These bodies will be run down, the 901 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 902 relevant clauses of the Bill will become law, and the Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, this amendment RDAs will finally be abolished. RDAs have been is on the abolition of the Security Industry Authority. liaising with the relevant local authorities, local enterprise I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Henig, who has partnerships and other local partners. On 31 January, been its chair. My Government established the SIA in all RDAs submitted detailed plans for the disposal 2004 to reduce criminality in the security profession of their assets. They recognised that there will be a and to raise standards in the industry. This is exactly variety of destinations for these assets, depending on what the SIA has done and what I would like it to their nature and associated liabilities. These plans continue to do. The body has two main duties: the are currently being scrutinised by the Government. compulsory licensing of individuals undertaking After scrutiny, each RDA management board will designated activities within the private security industry, sign off its plan and begin implementation. RDA such as security guarding, door supervision, close asset-disposal plans have been developed while taking protection, public space surveillance by CCTV, and into account the principles that we set out in the White protecting cash and valuables in transit; and to manage Paper. These include maximising value for money the voluntary approved-contractor scheme. from these assets, ensuring that liabilities follow assets It is easy to understand why the police campaigned and passing control down to local level where possible. for the industry to be regulated, why they are content Where this is not appropriate—where, for example, an with the way in which the authority is working and asset is of national importance, such as that set up in why they do not want it to be abolished. Neither do I. the south-west and mentioned in the debate, and It is not difficult to see why such an industry should considerable resources are needed to run it—other have been regulated. You just have to think about how options will be considered. the actions of nightclub bouncers have, according to Similarly, co-ordination of some activities formerly my children and their friends, improved exponentially undertaken by RDAs will be taken back to national over the past few years. You just have to think about level, and some activities, such as those of the England the potential for people who wish to harm our society Rural Development Programme, will retain local accessible with acts of terrorism and how much easier it would support. In some cases, such as managing the European be for them to find employment in an unregulated Regional Development Fund and the England Rural industry. You just have to think about the potential for Development Programme, we need to ensure compliance employing people—perhaps illegal immigrants—at below with our obligations to the European Union. In other the minimum wage. I realise that employers in the cases, such as co-ordination of inward investment industry have a responsibility but I am sure that they activity, we need to ensure that we can put over a are greatly assisted by the SIA. coherent and effective message to potential investors. Can the Minister confirm that the Home Secretary However, even in those cases, we are setting up mechanisms has decided that there will be no significant changes to under which local partnerships have the opportunity the SIA until after the Olympics in 2012? If that is the to influence policy and help drive the decisions we case, it is certainly very telling. I suggest that our make. For all these reasons, we do not believe that citizens should be able to enjoy a properly regulated retaining all or any of the nine RDAs will help to security industry at any time, not just in the period achieve local growth. I therefore ask the noble Baroness leading up to and during the Olympics. I ask the to withdraw her amendment, and for noble Lords not Minister whether there are plans for a smooth transition to move theirs. to a self-regulated industry and whether the police are content with the transition. Finally, what reviews do Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am grateful the Government intend to carry out following the to the Minister for his response, which I will carefully proposed changes to ensure that the public can continue consider, and I look forward to the letters that he has to have confidence in the system? I simply do not undertaken to write. All around the Chamber we understand why the Government wish to abolish this would agree that regional development is key to the body and I look forward to hearing from the Minister. economic recovery of this country. RDAs have been, and for the moment are, excellent strategic catalysts Lord Whitty: My Lords, I rise briefly to support for growth. I have to say that I am not confident that this amendment. I do so partly because I was in on the their replacement by LEPs will suffice. However, I will beginning of the campaign to regulate the security take into consideration what the noble Lord has said. industry when I still worked for my trade union, which At this juncture I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, organised the more respectable end of the security but I reserve the right to bring something back at industry. However, 20 years ago, and indeed more Report. recently, it was an industry with some very dodgy people in it. There was an element of criminality; there Amendment 49 withdrawn. were occasional outbursts of violence; there was fraud; and there was a straightforward dereliction of duty to the businesses and individuals that employed so-called Amendments 50 to 58 not moved. security companies. There was much in the industry that, to put it at its mildest, was short of customer Amendment 59 service. It was not a pleasant industry but in many respects Moved by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon it was one on which, because of the nature of our 59: Schedule 1, page 17, line 23, leave out “Security Industry society and the value of the goods in which we trade, Authority.” more and more businesses came to rely. They needed 903 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 904

[LORD WHITTY] SIA was being abolished when the Gangmasters Licensing to be assured that the people they brought in to Authority was being spared—a question which has protect their premises, their transit arrangements, their not yet been satisfactorily answered. The Public valuables and, in many respects, their staff and customers Administration Committee’s report asked exactly the knew what they were doing and did not have any same question. The silence in response is deafening. record of transgression. That is what, after a long campaign, led to the setting up of the Security Industry I asked another question to which there has been Authority. no response: why is it that the Government believe the industry is mature enough at this moment in time to The Home Office has ummed and ahed about this regulate itself when the Scottish Government, the for many years and has done absolutely nothing about Northern Ireland Administration and even large parts it. The first time the authority’s abolition was proposed, of the industry disagree very strongly. Yet the Minister it was suggested that its responsibilities went back to told us at Second Reading that there had been no the Home Office, but that would have been absolutely major disagreements on the legislation between the disastrous. Now, a degree of self-regulation for the Government and the Scottish Government. I do not industry is proposed. However, the problem with that think that is entirely an accurate description but obviously is that the more respectable end of the industry will I defer to others on that. undoubtedly attempt very effectively to ensure a degree of quality of service and vetting of staff and individuals The most serious issue I had with the Government but the less respectable end will re-emerge and so-called on this matter was their lack of consultation with the security firms will spring up all over the place employing industry. After all it was the BSIA and other bodies people who have not been through the vetting procedure. and individuals within the private security industry Therefore, any self-regulation is dependent on the which consistently pressed for regulation of the industry majority of the industry participating in it and being in the 1980s and 1990s and they have supported it and able to exclude others. for the most part paid for it. Surely, therefore, the There may have been criticisms of the SIA but most views of the industry should have been sought before of those have probably been invalid. I feel that there the policies were drawn up, not to mention the uncertainty should have been a mandatory system of approving caused to 350,000 individuals working in the industry, companies, as well as individuals, but the authority, many of whom funded their own licence fee and together with the police, undoubtedly helped to clean invested in their training. Surely there should have up the industry. Taking away this protection from been consultation with all these people. Certainly the businesses and individuals is a big risk for the Government view of the Public Administration Committee was to take. I hope that the Home Office will think again, that there should be consultation with all the bodies because it cannot do this job itself. Those at the listed in this Bill, even at this late hour, and who can respectable end of the industry do not really want to say that it is wrong? be reduced to self-regulation. They will operate such a system if the Government insist on it but it will not be In the case of the security industry, its leaders as effective as the development of the SIA. For that sensibly were not prepared to wait that long. Indeed, reason, and in the interests of protecting a lot of small they made their opposition to the ending of regulation and large businesses and public premises, I ask the and the abolition of the SIA very clear. They wrote to Government to think again. the Home Secretary, the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister. They organised and they highlighted the tremendous risks inherent in the Government’s Baroness Henig: My Lords, I declare an interest as proposals, forcing the Government to change their the current chair of the Security Industry Authority mind. Instead of abolition the Government agreed and president of the Association of Police Authorities. that there should be a phased transition to a new In the speech I made at Second Reading I told the regulatory regime and that the SIA should no longer House about the enormous concern with which the be an NDPB. Government’s proposal to abolish the organisation and return to self-regulation of the industry was greeted, So there has been a change and therefore this Bill is particularly by people in the industry and also by already out of date in terms of regulation of the Scotland and Northern Ireland. Last week the chairman private security industry. In the exchange of views that of Security Alliance said how the inclusion of the SIA took place between the Government and the industry, on the list for abolition came as a great surprise to the industry leaders made it clear that they were already industry. He said that since regulation was introduced, discussing with the Security Industry Authority a blueprint there had been a general acceptance in the industry for the evolution of regulation whereby the regulator that licensing had been a force for good. So that is and the industry would work together to produce clearly understood and agreed across the industry. smarter, more cost-effective regulation and would press We know there has been a lot of criticism recently the Government to introduce business registration in the other place by the Public Administration Committee alongside individual licensing so that we could move about the handling of the bonfire of the quangos. The to a more efficient, effective and lighter-touch regulatory committee said it was a rushed, botched job with no regime—“better for less”, to use the Government’s clear evidence of savings or concern for value for own phrase. That was certainly what the industry was money or efficiency. More important for the SIA was working towards with the SIA. As the Public the lack of consistency in applying the three questions Administration Committee so rightly observed, the and the issue of whether they were even the right major issue at stake in relation to quangos should not questions to ask. I asked at Second Reading why the be about their status or structure but about effectiveness 905 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 906 and delivering value for money. Since last summer the intelligence and enforcement operations. It is important SIA has been in discussion with the industry about that they continue and that the state continues to precisely these matters. maintain a strong regulatory regime in respect of The issue before us in this discussion on the Security criminality; in respect of criminals and their associates; Industry Authority is not a simple should it or should and in respect of those who continue to seek to it not be abolished, but how best to facilitate a phased undermine and weaken the regime. Everyone who transition from the current regulatory regime to lighter works in the industry wants the regime to be effective touch, smarter regulation in which industry bodies in driving out and keeping out criminality and in and leaders play an increasingly active and important upholding robust standards. That is extremely important role alongside the SIA. There is no disagreement about because the credibility of the industry requires strong that. The issue is that it is a process which will take intelligence and enforcement activity, which has to time. It cannot be rushed. It has to include all sections continue in any new regime. of the industry that are currently regulated. While the There is a considerable way to travel. Listing the recent emergence of the Security Alliance as a unified SIA in Schedule 1 to the Bill was a misguided and voice for the industry is to be welcomed as a very inappropriate step for the Government to take. We are positive development, it is by no means fully established talking about Schedule 3 and changing the nature of across the industry. So there is a lot of work to be the organisation and moving it to something different. done, and along the way the decisions made by the The important thing is that we all want to build on Home Office and the Government in relation to the and improve the regulation that has been introduced. extent of regulation—for example, that it should not It has been a great success and we want to continue it include in-house security, or for the time being private both with the industry and the devolved Administrations. investigators or security consultants—will undoubtedly We have to work with them at their pace, which I hope be queried and challenged by many in the industry. If the Government will be supporting so that we can we are discussing the industry’s future, people working move forward together. in it want to raise many things. Then there are the views of Scotland and Northern Baroness Meacher: My Lords, I will speak very Ireland. I cannot speak with enormous knowledge briefly in support of the comments of the noble Baroness, about these areas but the licensing of private security Lady Henig, the current chairman of the SIA. I should has been a huge success both in Scotland and Northern mention that I was the first chairman of the Security Ireland. It has been in Scotland since 2007 but licensing Industry Authority some years ago and in that capacity in Northern Ireland is just a year old. The Northern I came to respect very highly the considerable number Ireland Administration are in no rush to change it and of companies that control the vast majority of companies we can understand why. They think that it has made a within the security industry. However, I was introduced big difference. Both those areas have elections in the to the industry prior to regulation and can certainly spring and we will have to wait to find out the views of endorse the comments already made that the industry the new Administrations and Governments that result. does attract a large number of highly unscrupulous A lot is standing in the way of progress at the moment. individuals who, without very tight controls, are more As part of the phased transition process, the industry than willing to take advantage of the unsuspecting, is strongly of the view that the Government should either employers or members of the public. play their part by showing a willingness to bring in The two big achievements of the SIA, and a credit business registration in the industry, alongside the to its current chairman, have been the raising of the licensing of individuals. I hope that the Minister will educational level of the 350,000 or so security officers be able to commit the Government to action in relation and also, as others have mentioned, the protection of to business registration when she replies, as the industry the public and employers from these unscrupulous is keen to see that. security guards. I am sure the Minister would like to We are working to move forward. We in the SIA are recognise the value of its work. consulting a whole range of bodies, including the There is of course merit in the proposal to focus in strategic consultation group, a Security Alliance industry future on the system of business registration, leaving panel, and so on, because it is important to have the individual licensing largely in the hands of the industry. agreement with the industry and major stakeholders However, I too do not accept the Government’s argument on key principles and milestones for the future, while that none of the SIA functions needs to be carried out being conscious, as was said, of the need to proceed by a public body. In view of the extent of criminality cautiously before the Olympics in 2012. There are also within the industry, and the potential for far greater the Commonwealth Games in Scotland in 2014 and amounts of criminality, this just does not seem realistic. we must not forget that. It is important to put on the It is difficult to imagine that all aspects of the SIA can record that many senior figures in the industry are effectively be carried out by the industry itself. urging caution. They do not believe that the industry The Government refer to employers in other industries is yet ready for self-regulation. I strongly support taking responsibility for making appropriate recruitment giving the industry more responsibility in terms of decisions and suggest that this approach would be licensing and training, but I share its view that there is appropriate for the private security industry. My no evidence at present that it is sufficiently mature at understanding is that the industry just is not ready. I this point for self-regulation. We have to move very do not think the Government have at all taken into gradually towards that goal. Substantial progress will account the degree of criminality in the industry. It have been made towards establishing a new regulatory must be quite alone—in fact I cannot think of any regime by 2014 but there is the big issue of effective other industry that has comparable problems. 907 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 908

[BARONESS MEACHER] My main point relates to Scotland. I see the noble It is certainly most encouraging that Ministers have and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, here. I think that he now agreed to the SIA’s plan for evolution towards a will confirm that there is no doubt what is the view of new system based upon business registration. However, the Scottish Executive in relation to the future of the Ministers do not seem to be taking account at all of SIA. On 8 September, the Home Secretary wrote to the degree of opposition to these changes both in the Scottish Government seeking their views on the Scotland and Northern Ireland. It seems the Government UK Government’s intention for the future of the Security will need to move much more slowly if they are to have Industry Authority.Kenny MacAskill, the Justice Minister any hope at all of bringing the devolved Administrations in Scotland, in a reply to my colleague in the Scottish with them. I hope the Minister will take very seriously Parliament—he is not my noble friend yet—Richard the points already made by the noble Baroness, Lady Baker, stated on 11 November: Henig. “I responded on behalf of the Scottish Government on I want to mention one small but particularly threatening 13 September 2010, setting out my concerns about the UK sector of the security industry—the security officers Government’s proposals and strongly emphasising the need for who control parking on private land. The Government continued regulation of the private security industry in Scotland. These views were also set out in a letter that I wrote to the Deputy are committed to ending the right to clamp vehicles on Prime Minister on 24 September 2010 and in a further letter to private land. I applaud this move wholeheartedly. the Home Secretary following my meeting with the Scottish However, there is no move to prevent, as I understand security industry representatives on 13 October 2010”. it, these operators charging unsuspecting members of There is no doubt about their view, which was made the public extortionate fees for parking on private very clear to the Home Office and the Deputy Prime land. It is in this area that threats are made and Minister. In another reply, also on 11 November, extortionate quantities of money are demanded, increasing Kenny MacAskill stated: over time if people do not pay up quickly, that lead to “The Scottish Government does not support the decision of people submitting to the fees charged. I hope the the UK Government. The Security Industry Authority has been Government will be able to deal with that relatively working very well in Scotland, and the Scottish Government small but really alarming sector of the security industry made a very strong case to the UK Government for its continuation in the course of their deliberations about reform. as the independent body responsible for regulating the private I was very pleased to note in the Government’s security industry”. briefing that any proposed changes will be subject to There is no doubt about the view of the Scottish parliamentary approval. Perhaps I may take this Government. As my noble friend Lady Henig has opportunity to applaud the Minister, who told us in a heard directly, I can confirm that the shadow Justice meeting recently that he will be eliminating Clause 11 Secretary, Richard Baker, who asked the Question, and Schedule 7 from the Bill. This does seem to me an agrees. It is not often that he agrees with Kenny enormous step forward and I imagine I am speaking MacAskill, but on this occasion, he agrees 100 per on behalf of others too in saying that this is extremely cent with him. welcome. That is at least an excellent piece of good So we have the two largest parties in the Scottish news. Parliament at one in wanting to keep the Security Finally, as others have said, the SIA regulatory Industry Authority in operation. One might say, “It system is self funding. There are no public spending can continue to operate in Scotland”, but it would be implications in this reform. Perhaps the noble Baroness ridiculous for a United Kingdom industry—which it will explain to the House the motivation for a reform is, because Securicor and G4 security operate north which seems to be opposed not only by the devolved and south of the border—to have completely different Administrations but also by the industry which currently regulation, a completely different kind of supervision. pays the bill for the Security Industry Authority. I look The issues for the industry are the same in Scotland forward to the Minister’s response. as they are in England. There are other areas where things are different in Scotland, where we are proud of 10.30 pm the differences, but in this area, there are no differences Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I add my congratulations in the operation of the industry and there should not and thanks to my noble friend Lady Henig for the be any difference in the regulation of the industry. work she does as the chair of the authority. I have had As my noble friend Lord Whitty said in a robust a number of discussions with her over the past year or way and as my noble friend Lady Henig said in her so about the situation in Scotland, and she has been usual gentle way, I say to the Minister: think again most helpful. She carries out her work in a modest but about this. Have further discussions with the very effective way. I also echo what my noble friend Scottish Executive to find out more about their Lord Whitty said earlier: before the SIA was established, concerns, have discussions with the Welsh the industry was characterised by cowboys and gangsters. Assembly Government and with Northern Ireland I remember it well—not that I was part of it in any about their concerns to try to find something which is way, but I remember how it operated. I remember its acceptable to all parts of the United Kingdom, and links with organised crime. It was also characterised come back to this House and the other place with by low pay, which created particular problems with alternatives. The very co-operative way in which the bribery in the running of operations. Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, That did not all change through self-regulation. It started off the discussion on the Bill at about 3 o’clock—all changed because we legislated and because the those hours ago—was very refreshing. I hope that, on Government took clear and decisive action to ensure this particular issue, the Minister will act similarly to that the industry was properly regulated. the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, look at it positively, take 909 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 910 account of the views that have been expressed and I agree with the comments of my noble friend Lord take the matter away, think again and come back with Whitty about the respectable and less respectable arms revised proposals. of the industry. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Henig for all the work that she has done. In conclusion, Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I add just one concern I hope that the Minister has something to say and is at to what has already been said. That is in relation to the least prepared to take away this proposal and come criminal justice system and the use of private security back with something on Report. companies in it, coupled with my increasing concern about their involvement in the activities of the UK The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Border Agency. The Green Paper published by the Jones): My Lords, I thank the noble Lords who have Ministry of Justice, Breaking the Cycle, envisages increased spoken in this debate and made some important points. use of private sector companies, for example in providing Many of them I accept. In putting forward the probation services. At present they are conducting a Government’s proposed measure, I hope to convince number of private sector prisons. Those are under the Committee that many of the anxieties they have supervision of the Inspectorate of Prisons but the expressed will prove unfounded. training and the selection of staff has always caused The Government intend to resist this amendment, concern. which would remove the Security Industry Authority As far as the UK Border Agency is concerned, the from the list of public bodies that Ministers will be activities of the private sector in such activities as able to abolish via secondary legislation. We will do so the deportation of people was drawn into high relief because we consider it unnecessary. I want to explain the other day with the death of someone who was put what the Government intend to do because I believe under restraint while being deported in an airplane that many of the things that have been said on the from Heathrow. As a result, the activities of private Floor this evening perhaps represent a situation that sector guards have come under greater scrutiny rather no longer pertains. than less. Therefore, with this increased activity, I have Before I do that, I join other noble Lords in expressing to admit that I am nervous at the thought of the SIA my appreciation for the work done by the noble Baroness, being removed from a role that it could have if raised Lady Henig, as chairman of the SIA. There is no to the stature of that work, in favour of self-regulation, doubt that under her guidance the authority has raised which I do not believe is right in this particular area. the standards of the industry, which is one of the things that give us confidence that we can move on to Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I rise to a different regime. I will come back to that in a support my noble friend Lady Royall of Blaisdon. I moment. Many of the things that she said are points am most surprised that the Government proposed the on which there is a very large measure of agreement abolition of the Security Industry Authority in the between her, the Government and, I hope, other Members first place and that they have not moved on this of your Lordships’ House. matter. The Security Industry Authority is a great In looking at the SIA, the Government have applied success story. It has professionalised the private a number of tests to retention in the public bodies security industry, driven out criminality and ensured review. We concluded that there was not compelling that people are safe when attending a variety of events in evidence that, given the standards that are now being pubs, clubs and elsewhere. I am aware that they have reached, the SIA’s functions need to continue to be their own licensing body. I was at a football match on performed by a public body. The SIA was established Saturday and it was reassuring, walking around the by the Private Security Industry Act 2001, as has been ground, to see security professionals with accreditation said, and it has succeeded, as was the intention, in on their arms. How different that was only a few years reducing criminality in the security industry. It also set ago. out to improve standards. The approval system has I read the Government’s brief. It provides no undoubtedly resulted in improvements in those standards reassurance on the position going forward. In the and uses the compulsory licensing of individuals to document, the Government say that Ministers decided achieve the reduction in criminality. It carries out that there is no evidence that the Security Industry criminality and identity checks in addition to confirming Authority carried out a function that needed to be the training that has to be completed before issuing a undertaken by a public body. Will the Minister expand licence. on that in her response? Also, whatever is decided in The Government do not intend that any alternative the future, it must surely be inferior to what we have at regime should result in a lowering of these standards. present, if for no other reason than the fact, as my Licensing began in 2004, and there are currently more noble friend Lord Foulkes said, that different systems than 350,000 licensed individuals. The SIA has operate different authorities round the country. It is done something else important, which is to raise ridiculous. standards through the voluntary approved contractor I also ask, as my noble friend Lady Royall did, how scheme that allows companies to demonstrate that the Government will ensure that criminality is kept they meet a wide range of standards and are therefore out of the industry. I am pleased that the Government worthy of being accredited as approved providers of say in the briefing note that there will be little change security industry services. That is also something that this side of the Olympics in 2012—though, for me, will continue. More than 650 companies employing that highlights the weakness of the proposals in the about two-thirds of the industry now have the ACS first place. I would like the Minister to comment on standard. That is a record of achievement and I pay that in her response as well. tribute to it. 911 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 912

[BARONESS NEVILLE-JONES] Office Ministers and officials have been in close contact On that basis, however, we believe that it is now with the SIA to discuss how to take this forward. The right to move over time to a new regulatory regime. I Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Equalities stress that it will be a regulatory regime. The private and Criminal Information, who is the lead Home security industry has matured under the aegis of the Office Minister for the SIA, has met the SIA SIA since SIA regulation began, and there is evidence representatives. The Home Secretary herself has been of increased standards in the industry. We believe that in correspondence with the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, employers should now be given more responsibility for about the future. making safe and legal recruitment decisions in the Ministers have asked the SIA to work with the same way as employers in other professions. In other private security industry and key stakeholders to put words, they should not have normal responsibilities together a detailed plan to achieve a phased transition removed from them. to a new regulatory regime. We do not intend to do As was mentioned in the debate, the security industry this in anything but careful detail. To inform the plan, has formed a so-called security alliance of trade bodies the SIA started targeted consultations with stakeholders, which by their own reckoning represent more than including industry and law enforcement partners. The 80 per cent of the regulated security industry. This police were mentioned, and they are involved in the group recently wrote to the Parliamentary Under-Secretary consultation process. A detail of the phased introduction responsible for equalities and criminal information, of the new regulatory regime that will replace regulation Miss Lynne Featherstone, and outlined its willingness by the SIA will be the product. The SIA started this to work with the Government. It has already been work by hosting an initial meeting with a number of working with the SIA to shape the future regulation of industry stakeholders on 28 October. I understand its industry, as the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, mentioned. that this work is progressing well. Indeed, we intend to build on the work that has already been done. There is no doubt that challenges In the Second Reading debate on this Bill on still lie ahead for the industry, but I have a slightly 9 November, the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, stated different picture of the attitude of the industry and that the SIA had already agreed with the industry, some of those who are affected by the changes that lie “a blueprint for the next few years to move to greater industry ahead. It is more positive than has been noted in involvement in the regulatory regime”.—[Official Report, 9/11/10; discussions so far. There is no doubt that they are col. 133] willing. They have shown considerable alacrity in stepping She also quoted from a letter that she had had from up to take responsibility. That should encourage noble the Home Secretary in which she very kindly said that Lords. she was happy to accede to the Home Secretary’s wish 10.45 pm to ensure that, Baroness Meacher: The Minister has repeatedly “any transition to a new regulatory regime is phased in smoothly referred to the industry as though it was some uniform and takes into account the needs of the industry as well as the set of organisations. Does she accept that there is a priorities of the Government including the devolved Administrations”. tremendous divide between the reputable end of the To confirm the point made by the noble Baroness, industry and these highly dubious individuals and Lady Royall, the Home Secretary has agreed that pairs of people who go about taking work in the there should be no significant change prior to the security industry? You cannot refer to them in the Olympic Games in 2012. That is in line with a number same breath—and certainly not in the same phrase. of measures in other areas in which we are staying any Does she accept that? kind of change until after the Olympic Games. My point in all this is that the SIA itself is involved Baroness Neville-Jones: I accept that this industry—I in the work to move towards something that is described do not know what other term I can use: perhaps “this as self-regulation by the private security industry but occupation”—has a wide spectrum of activities and which is a pretty tough form of self-regulation. I will individuals in it. I will come to that in a moment. I come back to some of the details in a moment. The want to encourage your Lordships to have more SIA plan was presented to Home Office Ministers confidence that those in this industry can be relied on earlier this month for consideration, and on 16 February and are willing to take further responsibility and be there was another meeting with Lynne Featherstone more accountable for their own actions in future. I to discuss the plan further. We have now considered understand that there is some concern that if the SIA and agreed that this will form the basis for moving is abolished there will be no effective regulation of the forward on phased transition. I hope I am reassuring private security industry. I want to offer reassurance the Committee that this process is being done in on that point. We are not going to do anything immediate. careful consultation with the SIA and the industry on We have been convinced by those who have argued the basis of trying to ensure, therefore, that we come that that would be unwise and that it would not be out with a regime that offers the same degree of sensible to do that. The regulation of the private assurance of high standards that has already been security industry will continue in its present form. The established. SIA will not be abolished until the new regulatory As a result of the consultation, we are now in a regime has been fully established and is properly position to give a few more details of the shape of the functioning. new regulatory regime, although the Committee will Since the outcome of the public bodies review was understand that as we are still in discussion—the announced by the Cabinet Office on 14 October, Home whole point of the discussions is to get an agreed 913 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 914 format between the parties—not all the details have so ready, and they will be given time to achieve the been decided. So far, the agreed proposals will ensure necessary transition. The big ones that have already that responsibility for the private security industry is met the high standards of the approved contractor transferred to a new body for self-regulation as soon scheme will be able and willing to move immediately, as that is sensible after 2012—not before it is sensible but we will maintain mechanisms to ensure that smaller and not before the Olympics in 2012. No significant companies, which may not be in the position immediately change will happen before that. to transition to the new regime, can continue to trade. Primary legislation will then be needed to set up the new regulatory body that will succeed the SIA. We will Lord Kennedy of Southwark: Does the Minister ensure that provision is included in a future Home envisage, in the new regime, that the individuals themselves Office Bill. Full transition to the new regime should, will undertake CRB checks? we hope, be completed by the end of 2013. Again, this is not a rushed process. Baroness Neville-Jones: Clearly, CRB checks will be relevant. I cannot immediately answer whether they Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Would that be a new have to be done by the individuals themselves or by regulatory body for England or for the United Kingdom? their businesses to ensure that they are employing fit If only for England, what will the situation be in other and proper people. I would have to write to the noble parts of United Kingdom? Lord. The registering of these individuals is another point that worried some noble Lords, who thought that this new method of regulation would somehow Baroness Neville-Jones: I will come to the noble allow the bottom end of the industry to have free rein, Lord’s point about the relationship with the devolved if I can put it that way. This will not be permitted, Administrations. I have it in mind. because a registry of individuals will also be maintained The new regime will also see a significant shift of by the new body to support the needs of the customer responsibility from individual workers to businesses. and the industry. That will do two things. First, it will That is one of the changes in structure. We believe that ensure that named individuals are known to the regulatory that will be efficient and that it will also reduce regulatory body. Secondly, it will enable those individuals who costs and burdens. Instead of every single employee are of fit and proper standing to move from one having to be registered separately at a cost of something company to another with greater ease than would like £250 each, it will be a business paying for the otherwise be the case. Any proposed changes will be registration. In getting that registration, businesses subject to parliamentary approval. I thank the SIA for will be required to show that they meet a comprehensive the help that they are giving in moving the industry set of conditions set by the new body. along to the new regime. We have also asked the SIA if The industry itself has a strong interest in ensuring they will take forward the work necessary to ensure that the standards it sets are maintained and that they the full delivery. This Bill confers an ability to abolish are high. Clearly, that has to be one of the really the SIA, but this will be done only at an appropriate important parts of the new regime. Businesses that fail time in the transition to the regulatory regime. to meet these comprehensive conditions will have their Some noble Lords, particularly the noble Lord, rights to trade in private security removed. There is no Lord Foulkes, raised the issue of the response of the reason to suppose that somehow a transition to another devolved Administrations. Since the correspondence regime will by definition, and automatically, result in a to which he referred, and which I have seen, there have lowering of standards. On the contrary, the industry been further contacts with the devolved Administrations, will have a strong self-interest in ensuring that the and we are now in consultation with both the Scottish cowboys are not allowed in and are not permitted to Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. sully the reputation of an industry that is responsible Although it is the case that, on a voluntary basis, both for its regulation. There is a strong incentive actually the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland to take this regime and make it work well. Executive decided that they would accept the regulation It is obviously too early to give full details on costs, of the SIA, the regulation of the private security but we know that instead of more than 350,000 individuals industry is a policy decision for the devolved paying £245 each for licences, much of which is currently Administrations. It is a devolved matter, which we paid for by the companies that employ them, the new fully respect, and they will have the opportunity, if regime will involve fewer than 5,000 companies having they choose to exercise it, to have a different regime. to register, giving considerable saving to the industry. However, I agree with the noble Lord, that, given the One of the other things that we are doing, however, nature of the industry, which operates across the country, is to ensure that the impact on smaller businesses is it would be highly desirable if we could get agreement minimised by reflecting business size in the registration on a single regime. fees in the new regime, so that we do not get a situation in which small companies are paying a flat fee which is Lord Empey: I thank the Minister for giving way. the same size as very large ones. They will be gradated. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, raised There will also be a sensibly phased transition to the this earlier. I declare an interest as a member of the new regime, the details of which are still to be worked justice committee of the Northern Ireland Executive. out. We do not expect all businesses to move to the The reason why we have a particular issue must be regime at the same time. Some of the big boys are fairly obvious to most Members. We have a lot of clearly going to be ready to move at an early stage. people who, sadly, have come from a background Some of the smaller companies will not necessarily be where they were, shall I put it, organised, and were 915 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 916

[LORD EMPEY] it may be fitting, to have a certain amount of local able to bring intimidation and pressure and other variation. However, as I say, that is an area that is still things to bear. Consequently, we are not talking about being consulted about. We will work for a sensible precisely the same situation that would exist here, outcome and we want one that fits the needs of all UK albeit that there are always criminal elements there. Administrations. The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, asked whether the Some noble Lords raised the issue of wheel clamping. results of the election in May would make any difference. I should mention it briefly. As was rightly mentioned, I think that they will not, because the circumstances the Government are taking measures to regulate this that we have had to deal with have a long history and area, which include the abolition of the right to clamp will take some further time yet to work their way out and tow away on private land. This legislation will be of the system. I do not anticipate any immediate put into effect through the Protection of Freedoms change in the regime following the elections in May. Bill. The ban will end the abuse by devious firms and their employees who prey on motorists with signage, 11 pm excessive fees and unscrupulous towing. That regime Baroness Neville-Jones: I understand entirely the is going to come to an end, which obviously means point that the noble Lord makes. I would say two that the power does not need to be included in the new things about that. Clearly, it is desirable if the regulatory regulatory regime. regime that operates throughout the United Kingdom The noble Baroness asked whether we were also makes it easy for companies to operate across all three going to cover parking tickets. That is not an SIA Administrations. It does not follow from that that issue. It is regulated by the Department for Transport these regimes have to be identical. Certainly, the Home and the DVLA, so it lies outside the scope of this piece Office takes the view that if, for regional and local of legislation. needs, variation is needed, we would want to accommodate The SIA had already proposed the move to a more that. The object is to get an effective regulatory regime self-regulatory model before the Government took that does not put obstacles in the way of companies this issue on. It is in the spirit of building on that that operating across the country but permits local variation, we want to proceed. If the amendment were accepted, if it is necessary. it would create an administrative anomaly that would deliver, in our view, no benefits to the public, even Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I know that there are after the SIA had successfully implemented its plans other topics that we need to discuss and I apologise for to transition to the new regulatory regime. We are intervening, but it looks as if we are moving inevitably endeavouring to work in close co-operation with the towards a separate regime, with a Scottish and a existing authority on a transition to a regime that we Northern Ireland Security Industry Authority operating hope the authority itself will feel fulfils the job, so I as the Security Industry Authority in the UK does at hope that, on that basis, the noble Baroness will feel present and a move to a completely different regulatory able to withdraw her amendment. regime in England. Is that not absolutely daft? It will create huge problems for the security industry. Why are we doing it? Would it not be better to accept what Lord Whitty: My Lords, before my noble friend the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, the Security Industry decides what to do with this amendment, I should like Authority, all the people in the security industry and to ask a question. I understood the noble Baroness to the Scottish and Northern Irish Parliaments have said, say that, at the final stage of this, we will need further and stick to the present arrangement? Why are the primary legislation. If that is the case, I do not understand Government so determined to change, when no money her last point. Why do we need to include the SIA in is going to be saved and no advantage will be given? this Bill if we are going to deal with it later in primary Also, I hope that at some point the Minister will legislation? answer the question asked by my noble friend Lord Kennedy. If it is so important to keep the authority Baroness Neville-Jones: Having removed the basis going for the Olympics, does not that undermine the for the present regime, we obviously need to have a whole argument for changing at all? basis for the new regime.

Baroness Neville-Jones: To take the noble Lord’s Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am utterly last point, I do not think that it follows that, because perplexed at the end of this very good debate. We have one decides not to make a change before a big event, a regime which was introduced seven years ago at the there is no case for change at all. It does not follow at behest of the police and the industry itself—the good all. It is a sensible thing not to institute change immediately elements of the industry—as well as Parliamentarians. before a big event. However, it does not follow that no The Minister herself has said that standards have been change is possible or desirable. raised as a consequence of this good regime; it is On the noble Lord’s other point, I think that he is working well throughout the United Kingdom. Usually, jumping to conclusions. It is not our impression that when there are demands for a regulatory body to be the attitude of the Scottish Government is as negative disbanded, it is because the industry itself wants it to as he fears it may be. We are in consultation and I do be disbanded or because of an exorbitant cost. It not think that what I said indicated that we were seems to me that there is no cost in this; the industry is suddenly leaping to entirely different regimes. We are very happy to meet the bills and is content with the going to have consultation; we believe that it will be present situation. It looks very much as though the possible to have a national regime. We may need, and Government are tinkering around the edges—forgive 917 Public Bodies Bill [HL][28 FEBRUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 918 me if it sounds rude—and they are tinkering with a doing now. Notwithstanding that, I am content to system which is working well and that everybody is withdraw my amendment now, but I will certainly content with. I simply do not understand why we are bring back an amendment on Report. dealing with this issue now. Amendment 59 withdrawn.

I recognise, as the noble Baroness has said, that the Lord Judd: My Lords, there are hazards in going industry is content to have a phased transition, but it away from London in the middle of a Bill. Rapid seems to be a complex way of going about things. I do developments sometimes change the situation. I rise to not feel at all reassured by what she has said this move this amendment in the knowledge, which I should evening. The point made by the noble Lord, Lord share with the House, that— Ramsbotham, about the interaction between the security industry and the prison service— which, if I had Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: We were not planning thought about it, I would have been dismayed and on proceeding further tonight. concerned about—makes me even more concerned about the proposal before us today. The noble Baroness Lord Judd: I am so sorry. has talked about the need for transition and has said that consultation is already taking place. She has also House resumed. said that primary legislation will be needed for a new body, so I am slightly perplexed as to what we are House adjourned at 11.11 pm.

GC 77 National Insurance Contributions Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2011] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 78

£1.5 billion extra in terms of commitment of resources Grand Committee as against rather modest savings on the secondary threshold? The Minister will say that the secondary Monday, 28 February 2011. threshold is not meant to compensate for the impact on employers because personal tax allowances will National Insurance Contributions Bill help to some degree. The trouble with that argument, which the Minister vouchsafed to the House at Second Committee Reading, is that it takes no account of the balance on personal tax allowances, namely the very severe benefits 3.30 pm cuts and loss of income to many of the less well-off in The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Brougham our society. That is why the Bill needs to be put in that and Vaux): Good afternoon, my Lords. If there is a broader context. Division in the Chamber while we are sitting in Committee, We are concerned that the Bill is being promoted we will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung against a background of government policies that and resume after 10 minutes. threaten the recovery. We had some indication of the difficulties just before Christmas. That coincided with Debate on whether Clause 1 should stand part of the adverse weather conditions, which was the reason Bill. given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time and looks pretty threadbare now. One cause of anxiety Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, presumably the about the recovery is the cuts in public expenditure, Minister hopes that the Committee stage of this Bill which will lead to significant job losses and a severe will not be as protracted as another Bill that has been loss in confidence among employers and consumers. before the House over the past few weeks, and I think The Government propose—something that they criticised that I can give him that assurance. However, we want the previous Administration for—to increase national to debate whether Clause 1 should stand part for the insurance contributions, but they have also increased obvious reason that this is by far the most significant VAT and have other strategies on the economy that are clause in what is an important Bill. the source of great anxiety. As the Minister will appreciate, we support the We look at the Bill in the context of the importance increase in national insurance contributions but our of growth in the economy and strengthening employment. proposals were very different. He must recognise that, Declining employment, when people lose their jobs, during the course of the detailed discussion on the reduces demand severely in the economy and does clauses of the Bill that we will have this afternoon, we enormous damage to the Government’s receipts from will identify some of those points of difference. We their various forms of revenue gathering. That is why hope that he will be in a position to answer some of we shall be using this Committee session for detailed the questions that were adumbrated in general terms examination of the Bill. However, we wanted to make at Second Reading and will be dealt with in rather this series of comments on whether Clause 1 should more detail today. stand part because of its significance in the Government’s To put the Bill in context, there is a difference in wider economic strategy, on which this side has very perspective between the Government’s strategy and serious doubts. I hope that the Minister will be able to the one that my party would pursue. The Minister and give some response. I beg to move. the Committee will recognise that last year there were three consecutive quarters of growth followed by a The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord quarter of negative growth, which looked marginal Sassoon): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, when the first set of figures came out but rather more Lord Davies of Oldham, for confirming that the serious following the subsequent revision. We are Committee might move more expeditiously through concerned about the impact of the Bill and of the this Bill than some other recent Bills. Government’s general strategy on the broader economy. I think that the noble Lord said that I would We would put jobs and growth first. That is why we understand why he opposes Clause 1 standing part of are concerned that the increase in national insurance the Bill, but I could not quite work it out and I am contributions will prove to be difficult for growth and even more confused now that he says that the Opposition particularly for the protection of employment, given support the 1 percentage point increase, which is the that the increase in NICs is being supplemented by a import of Clause 1. However, I guess that I will very significant increase in VAT. Expert opinion identifies eventually get used to the way that the House operates that the increase in VAT could result in the loss of on these things. If the purpose of this discussion is to three times as many jobs as might be lost by anything put the Bill into a bit of context, I am certainly very to do with national insurance increases, which were happy to do that. the subject of considerable debate at the last general The Government face the twin challenges of dealing election. with the inherited deficit and getting the economy We are concerned that there is no protection for growing again. In this wider context, the Bill goes to those earning less than £20,000 per year. We would the heart of those challenges. I have repeatedly said have sought that protection by raising the primary that the recovery is likely to be choppy, and so it is threshold. The Government are imposing increases proving. It is not easy to stimulate growth while bringing without fully increasing the secondary threshold for the deficit under control. The case of national insurance employers. That presents obvious difficulties. Can the exemplifies the dilemma and the challenge. The 1 per Minister confirm that employers will suffer nearly cent increase in national insurance produces revenue GC 79 National Insurance Contributions Bill[LORDS] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 80

[LORD SASSOON] stance at this point but I hope that his words do not of the order of £9 billion to £10 billion, which is come back to haunt him given that his Administration’s necessary to deal with the deficit. Although we will proposals may lead to excessive job loss. We think that put 70 to 80 per cent of the weight of deficit reduction it is easy to read the signs of the very great difficulties on spending, nevertheless increases in taxation will that we shall face on the employment front and, therefore, bear part of the burden. Therefore, we start by accepting in the economy. some of the changes that the previous Government The Minister will also know that there is a difference proposed. We do not know what they had in mind on in perspective between my party and the Government. VAT. There were strong indications from Ministers in Other significant Governments in the world—not least the previous Government that had they been returned that of the United States—take a rather different to office they might well have increased VAT. perspective on what needs to be done in policy terms In the context of national insurance increases, offsetting in relation to the present position as compared to the measures that go hand in hand with the Bill—although policy that he has adumbrated. Nevertheless, I am they are not in the Bill—will increase the secondary grateful that the Minister has been as constructive as threshold by £21 a week and the primary threshold he always seeks to be in response to my opening and the lower profits limit by £24 a week. This will remarks. As we get into closer detail on the Bill, I do significantly offset the rises in the Bill. The increase in not have the slightest doubt that he will enjoy being income tax personal allowances and the reductions in even more constructive. the basic rate limit and in the national insurance upper earnings and profits limit will, as a combined package, Clause 1 agreed. go a substantial way towards offseting the effect of the national insurance rises. Compared with the plans that Clause 2 agreed. we inherited, employers will be more than £3 billion better off next year, and that figure will rise in future years. As I said, we are fully compensating for the Clause 3 : Increased product of additional rates to be £9 billion increase in labour taxation that the rate rise paid into National Insurance Fund represents. The threshold rises will mean that the burden that Amendment 1 the Government add to labour costs will lessen, and there will be more to share between employers and Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton employees so that both will benefit. As a result of the 1: Clause 3, page 2, line 5, leave out ““50”” and insert ““75”” way in which we are doing this, some of the benefit will be switched from national insurance contributions Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I shall speak to income tax, so the net rise in national insurance also to Amendment 2. Amendment 1 seeks to probe contributions payments will be compensated for by a why 50 per cent, rather than, say, 75 per cent, of the larger fall in income tax payments. Employers will be product of the additional primary rate and additional better off in respect of employees earning up to £20,000, class 4 percentage rate form part of the health service while employers who have staff among the highest allocation. Amendment 2 poses the same question for earners will pay more in national insurance contributions. a 100 per cent—the existing percentage—allocation. We are agreed that the 1 percentage point increase The main features of the contribution system are is appropriate. Where we diverge from the analysis of helpfully set out in appendix 2 of the Government the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is in seeing the proposed Actuary’s Department report on the Social Security increase as a significant tax on jobs at a time when the Benefits Uprating Order 2011. For the NHS allocation recovery needs to be encouraged and bolstered. That it sets out, as partly provided for in the Bill, the rates is why we have made the offsetting increases in limits, of 2.05 per cent of earnings between the primary and the increase in the income tax personal allowance. threshold and the upper earnings limit and 1 per cent I am grateful to the noble Lord for enabling us to start of earnings above the UEL. From April 2011, the our discussion by putting the Bill in a wider context, UEL, as we have just heard from the Minister, has because that is important. Having explored the issue, I reduced and the primary threshold has increased. hope that we will now move on to the detailed points That would appear to mean that for any given level of that he intends to raise. earnings, the 2.05 per cent of the allocation will be lower because the band is narrower, and the 1 per cent will be greater because the starting point is lower. 3.45 pm However, overall, with constant earnings, this part of Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, of course, I am the NHS allocation would appear to be reduced. Similarly, grateful to the Minister for his general response. He the constant 1.9 per cent NHS allocation from employer referred to choppy waters, but choppy waters can be contributions would appear to be less because it starts uncomfortable and people in boats can feel unwell in from a higher secondary threshold. The same issue choppy waters. We are concerned that those waters arises in respect of class 4 contributions. may have sufficient movement to swamp many people. Given that GAD assumes the number of jobs to be We are worried about the rate of job loss and the loss the same next year as this year, with earnings increasing of income among many sectors of our community, by just 2.1 per cent, what estimates have been made of which will be reflected in the overall state of the the overall NHS allocation? Will the Minister let us economy. Indeed, we may already have seen signs of know the estimated figure for the current year and that. The Minister is fully entitled to adopt his optimistic how this would change if the percentage of the additional GC 81 National Insurance Contributions Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2011] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 82 rates applied was variously 75 per cent and 100 per ensure that plans for the payment of pensions and cent? These issues are important in seeking to understand other contributory benefits will be sustainable in the the projected outcome on the National Insurance Fund long term. Through that funding we can protect pensioners in the context of the funding that has been allocated to by the new triple lock that guarantees a rise in the the NHS. On this matter, in responding to the Second basic state pension every year in line with earnings, Reading debate, the Minister said: prices or by 2.5 per cent, whichever is the greater. In “I hope it is completely clear to noble Lords that nothing in ordinary circumstances we would expect contributions the Bill affects in any way the commitment to increase NHS to rise broadly in line with earnings, and therefore to spending in real terms in each year of this Parliament. We can rise in real terms. afford to do this without additional funding from national insurance contributions”.—[Official Report, 2/2/11; col. 1429.] Under the Government’s proposals, we expect allocations to the NHS to rise in real terms in a typical Anyone who followed the debate in another place, year. I do not have the breakdown of the split under which I will not replicate today because there will be different percentages. I could get my calculator and other opportunities, will understand why the Government work it out but the main point, as I have tried to are effectively failing in this pledge; I refer to the explain, is that the split itself is not relevant. We are switch in funding to cover social care budget shortfalls, maintaining the allocation and ensuring that the National the consequences of the VAT increase on the NHS Insurance Fund continues to grow, and National Health given the inflation in the costs of treatment, and the Service expenditure is protected by the commitments costs of the reorganisation. that the Government have given in their broader Perhaps the Minister will tell us, if the Government expenditure plans. I hope that I have adequately explained are to struggle to reach their NHS spending commitment, what is going on and that noble Lords will withdraw where the money will come from if the moneys allocated the amendment. from the National Insurance Fund are not to be used. Will he also let us know how the additional moneys retained in the National Insurance Fund and not Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I thank the allocated to the NHS have contributed to its balance, Minister for his reply. Of course we will withdraw which is projected now to be £53 billion by 2015-16? the amendment; as he knows, that is the practice in the Clearly, if the NHS allocations were greater, the balance Moses Room. I understand the broad thrust of his of the fund would be less and the investment income point about funding for the NHS, but we shall have to less—but what would the other ramifications be? We agree to differ on the Government’s performance in probe with these amendments. I beg to move. that regard. We shall have the opportunity to debate that fully on other occasions. The Minister said that in the event of a shortfall in Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I hope that I did not give contributions, the Government would make up the too much encouragement with my remarks on Clause 1 difference. One point that I was probing concerned the to indicate that I would be in too accommodating a respective levels of the NHS allocation for the current mode this afternoon. As regards the two amendments, year and for the year we are about to enter. I accept I find this split of the proceeds between different that the Government are preserving the 1 per cent and allocated funds rather confusing and arcane. The relevant 2.5 per cent rates. However, the bands on which they questions are the big picture ones asked by the noble are operating are changing; the bands for next year Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, about the impact, if will mean that the UEL is reducing and the primary any, on NHS funding. threshold is increasing. All other things being equal, if The point is that although for government accounting there were constant earnings between the two years, purposes—which are important—the moneys need to you would expect a lower contribution to the NHS be allocated, the allocation does not and will not have allocation than was the case before the changes were any impact on NHS funding. It is absolutely not part introduced. With great respect, I do not think that the of government policy to cut NHS funding automatically Minister has fully responded to that point—but it if, for example, global conditions lead to a reduction looks as if he may be about to do so. in national insurance contribution receipts. The Government would simply make up any shortfall from lower than expected national insurance contributions Lord Sassoon: I apologise for not responding earlier, from other sources. but I see that the noble Lord has the Government Actuary’s report, from which the Committee can see Even though the noble Lord questions it, the overriding that the NHS allocation for 2010-11 will be about commitment is the one that has been given on National £20.5 billion, and pretty much the same for 2011-12. Health Service spending. The amendments do not The figures in appendix 6, towards the bottom of page have any bearing on how much the NHS will have to 25 of the GAD report, show that the expectation is spend because if the money does not come out of one £20,608,000,000 for 2010-11 and £20,437,000,000 for fund it will come out of other sources of general 2011-12. That is after the bands change; the amount is government expenditure. We are maintaining the level very close. of national insurance contributions allocated to the NHS and taking the additional revenues from rate rises to the National Insurance Fund. That is what is Lord McKenzie of Luton: I had not reached that happening here although, as I have said, it will not appendix, so I thank the Minister for those figures. I have any impact on the NHS but merely maintain the accept that they are very close. Nevertheless, there is a previous level of funding. However, putting the additional reduction year on year. Had more than 50 per cent revenue into the National Insurance Fund will help to been allocated, the outcome would have been different. GC 83 National Insurance Contributions Bill[LORDS] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 84

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] Clause 4 : Holiday for new businesses It is not just a matter of comparing one year with the next. Dealing with the rates is one thing, but if the bands are changed there will be consequential effects Amendment 3 in subsequent years as well. Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton I will press another point that I raised concerning 3: Clause 4, page 2, line 13, after “started”insert “and throughout the impact on the balance of the National Insurance the period when the appropriate amount is deductible or refundable” Fund. The actuary’s report shows an increase to some £53 billion over the years to 2014-15. The effect of not Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I beg to move allocating more to the NHS is to build up that balance, Amendment 3 and to speak to Amendments 8 and 9. which will also have implications for the investment in The purpose of this group of amendments is to probe the fund. If more were allocated to the NHS, what a little the boundaries of the national insurance would be the effect, other than reducing that balance contributions holiday. As I think we made clear at and changing the investment income? Second Reading, we see merit in the scheme as an incentive to encourage employment by new businesses 4pm but wonder whether the parameters of the scheme are I remember in the past seeking answers from officials driving a bureaucracy that will considerably lessen its on what happens to that balance. I was told that it was impact. partly invested back in gilts and that one could not use We acknowledge that the wider the scheme is drawn, it for other expenditure, but I never clarified how the the further the resources have to go but the level of two answers sat together. Perhaps the Minister will say take-up referred to when this was debated in the other what would be the consequences of a greater allocation place suggests that the Government are falling far to the NHS and the long-term impact on the fund, short of their anticipated take-up. Without praying in given that its balance is due to increase over the next aid the report that is due to come more officially in few years after a period when receipts are less than due course, perhaps the Minister might give us some payments? Will the Minister also bear in mind update on the take-up to date. The scheme has effectively contributory benefits, because it is in the mind of the been under way for something like nine months. Is the noble Lord, Lord Freud, that these will feature less expectation that this incentive will still reach 400,000 prominently in the universal credit system than they businesses over the relevant period? By limiting the do currently. holiday to new businesses, the complexity of the legislation inevitably increases as it has to address the avoidance Lord Sassoon: My Lords, clearly, if there was more possibilities of people recasting an existing business as in the fund, a greater part of NHS expenditure could a new enterprise. We will come later to the validity of come via that route, but I am not clear that there the excluded regions but we accept that if they are to would be any significant consequence in terms of the be part of the scheme, the boundaries of the non-excluded outcomes we are talking about. NHS expenditure will regions must be secure. be determined by the allocation that has been given in The purpose of Amendment 3 is straightforward: the spending review. The noble Lord may quibble to secure that, about the nature of the numbers and what is covered “the principal place at which the new business is carried on … is by them, but they are set out with great clarity in the not in any of the excluded regions”, review. For this purpose we are talking about some not only when it is started but “throughout the period relatively simple arithmetic in terms of what would when” the benefit of the holiday is being enjoyed. happen if there were to be any shortfall. If there is a There is an argument that the requirement should be surplus, funds that do not go to the NHS go to the satisfied throughout the relevant period, but if that National Insurance Fund; that is what has led to the were imposed you would not be able to grant the considerable current balance. We are talking about a holiday and the benefit of the cash flow until the end process where a fund has accumulated over the long of that period. term and we need that surplus, although it is predicted to fall, in order to fund future pensions. Amendment 8 seeks to probe why six months has been chosen as the cut-off point in determining whether In summary, one way of looking at it is that in the a business has effectively been recycled. The Minister short term a high balance will help to tackle a deficit. might explain why that is considered a more appropriate Indeed, as the noble Lord heard from his officials in period than, say, the 12 months that the amendment the past, and as has been explained to me, that balance suggests. Perhaps he would also take the opportunity is invested with the Commissioners for the Reduction to expand on some of the terms in Clause 5. A of the National Debt. business is not a new business for that clause’s purposes if a person has, within the defined period, carried Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful to the on a, Minister and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. “business consisting of the activities of which the business consists”. That might be abundantly clear in many circumstances Amendment 1 withdrawn. but not, we suggest, in others. Will a retail business—say, a grocery store—conducted in one part of a non-excluded Amendment 2 not moved. area consist of the same activities previously carried on by that person if the business were a retail business Clause 3 agreed. in a different location selling the same type of products? GC 85 National Insurance Contributions Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2011] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 86

What if the product range were different—children’s and encourage employment right across the areas of clothing, say—but trading were from the same location economic activity, but to do so through an across-the- and, possibly, under the same name? board national insurance holiday would be extraordinarily The purpose of Amendment 9 is to test whether costly. That is why we have come up with a scheme there is any leakage of the benefit of the holiday where that is targeted in this way. On the other hand, as has P genuinely starts a new business which is run alongside been pointed out, we need to have appropriate anti- an existing business of P. In part, that depends on avoidance provisions. whether it is a single business or there are two or more When I first saw the amendments in this group, I separate businesses. Organising an expansion as a had considerable sympathy with Amendment 3, which branch of an existing operation would presumably not seems to be aimed at ensuring that new businesses that be a new business; organising via a separate company benefit from the holiday must not only have their or partnership could be. What, in the arrangements in principal place of business in an area that is not the Bill, would prevent employees being employed by excluded but remain outside the excluded areas for the the new business with some recharge to the other entire period during which holiday deductions or refunds businesses? Does Clause 6(1)(a) require employment are claimed. The amendment seeks to prevent a new wholly for the purpose of the new business? business that relocates to an excluded area from enjoying I would not expect the Minister necessarily to respond any further holiday. The Government certainly agree in detail to all of these points this afternoon. They are with that objective. In fact, the Bill already provides raised to highlight the fact that focusing on new businesses that if the new business, having made a successful and having excluded regions complicates matters— application for a holiday, relocates to an address within sometimes, I suggest, considerably.It certainly complicates an excluded area the holiday will cease automatically. the legislation, notwithstanding the general anti-avoidance The necessary provisions are found in Clause 7, provisions of Clause 10, which we thoroughly support. which provides for the appropriate amount of secondary It will inevitably be the case that when boundaries to a class 1 contributions that a new business can deduct or scheme are set down, there are those who will seek to request to be refunded under the holiday.The appropriate circumvent them. I am not sure whether the Government amount is calculated by reference to a qualifying have been wise in offering so many of these opportunities. employee’s relevant earnings. Clause 7(3) provides that: “‘Relevant earnings’ are earnings paid to”, Baroness Kramer: My Lords, I apologise if my an employee who is employed, newness to the institution shows in my bobbing up at “for the purposes of the new business, at any time during the the wrong time. I wish to make a couple of small holiday period when the principal place at which the business is comments on the amendments in this group, although carried on is not in any of the excluded”, my comments are less about the detail and more, in a areas. Therefore, if a new business were to move to an sense, about questioning the underlying principle. excluded region, any earnings paid to a qualifying For all of us, the notion that new business can be employee would cease to be relevant earnings and stimulated to be a fountain of growth and of new jobs there would be no appropriate amount to be deducted is obviously highly desirable, so an effective take-up of or refunded, so the protection sought by the amendment the programme would, I suspect, be met with pleasure has already been provided within the Bill. on every side of the House. However, given the potential for a review period as we move through the Bill, might 4.15 pm it not be good to keep in the back of one’s mind that However, it might be worth noting that the amendment even new jobs that come from existing businesses can would go further than the current protection. If accepted, be valuable, even if the take-up does not reach the it would mean that a new business that decides not to targets of the initial programme? It strikes me that operate the holiday in real time, but instead to claim a that would not be a failure, given that economies are refund later, would not be entitled to that refund if it volatile and take-up can take time but that jobs are relocates its principal place of business to an excluded beneficial even if they originate from business that is area at any time before the refund claim period expires. already under way. It might be important to ensure Clause 8(5) provides that an application for a refund that this whole category of issues is critical in any can be made up to four years after, review that might come one year after the initiation of “the day on which the last deduction could be made in respect of the programme so that the Government can consider the qualifying employee”. whether they would be wise to expand the categories At the risk of going into excessive detail, the main in order to achieve the underlying intention of the Bill. intention of Amendment 3 is covered, and, as I say, it might inadvertently go further than its strict intended Lord Sassoon: My Lord, those two interventions go purpose. to the heart of why it is necessary to strike a difficult Amendment 8, if accepted, would amend Clause 5 balance—this is where judgments have to be made— so that the period for which an individual must have between, on the one hand, providing some tight and ceased carrying out a similar previous business would suitable anti-avoidance provisions and, on the other, increase from six to 12 months. The Government ensuring that we do not make it excessively difficult believe that that would present an unnecessary restriction for people to take up the holiday in the Bill. Of course on individuals who set up new businesses. I return to we need to ensure that the scheme is affordable. That is my noble friend’s point: we are trying to encourage why it has been targeted at new businesses, with a cap people to set up businesses. This is clearly a matter of on the number of employees. Yes, we want to stimulate judgment, but we concluded that six months would be GC 87 National Insurance Contributions Bill[LORDS] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 88

[LORD SASSOON] an appropriate gap to defer any mischief by individuals Amendment 4 who may try to game the system by closing an existing business and starting another. Our view is that extending Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton the gap to 12 months would deter genuine businesses 4: Clause 4, page 2, line 24, leave out “Greater London,” from being started. For example, someone who used to own a hotel but bought a restaurant instead might be prevented going back into the hotel business if the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I shall speak restaurant business did not succeed. We would not also to the other amendments in this group. As we want to deter such perfectly genuine attempts at discussed at Second Reading, and as was pursued in starting businesses in succession by having too long a another place, we have concerns that the national period. insurance holiday is targeted by crude geographical area and not by any more objective assessment of I have gone on for some time on these amendments. need. These amendments variously look to remove The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, was kind enough to Greater London, London, the south-east and the eastern say that he did not expect me to answer all his points region as excluded regions. As we have just discussed in forensic detail. I was interested in his analysis of and as we shall discuss further under the next grouping, Amendment 9, on situations where he thought that there are practical ramifications and administrative there were still loopholes. I will ask officials to look at costs in excluding certain parts of the UK from the whether that is so, but I do not believe that it is. benefit of the holiday. Amendment 9 would amend the definition of a “new” The Government’s chosen method of targeting is to business in Clause 5 so that anyone with an existing look at those areas with the greatest reliance on public business would not be able to benefit from the holiday sector employment and to do that at regional level. where they also set up a new, unrelated business. The Given that the RDAs are being abolished—that is Government believe that that would be an overly about to be debated in another place—and that different restrictive measure. While I am assured that the anti- economic groupings are being established through avoidance provisions are sufficient, the noble Lord LEPs, can the Minister say on what basis the analysis makes one or two specific points, which I will ensure has been undertaken at a regional level? We certainly are checked out. acknowledge that the scale and speed of cuts in public In conclusion, we have made sure that the holiday spending will have devastating effects on unemployment, has been carefully targeted. Yes, as is recognised, there both public and private. If the basis of targeting is need to be anti-avoidance provisions and although it is reliance on public sector employment, perhaps the helpful to be reminded of some of the key ones I Minister can say a little more about how this measure believe, having looked at the amendments, that they go is determined. beyond what is necessary to achieve the purposes For example, does the Minister accept that direct which I think we broadly share. employment in the public sector is only part of the story? Parts of the private sector are as heavily reliant on public expenditure as perhaps those in the public Lord McKenzie of Luton: Again, I am grateful to sector that provide direct employment. That can be for the Minister for his response. I would like to reflect a a combination of reasons, including previous outsourcing little on what he said on Amendment 3 and the application of functions of central or local government and the of Clause 7(3) but we see the import of that response. reliance on public sector construction contracts. Of course, I shall not press any of these amendments For instance, the Building Schools for the Future this afternoon. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady programme would have provided significant employment Kramer, about the take-up of the scheme as conceived; opportunities. For example, we know that the Government if it does not use the resources and if there is a view to have been recruiting via agency companies in order to possibly recasting it, the value of new jobs for existing keep head counts down. Perhaps the Minister can say businesses is certainly something that the Government whether those arrangements are included as part of might consider including. I entirely accept, as we all the public sector. would, that you have to strike a balance on the cost of these things and on where you draw the line. I would Another issue to consider is the extent to which hang on to my point and spend a little time trying to spending cuts are borne fairly and proportionately bust the anti-avoidance provisions. By and large, I across areas. In devising this policy, what analysis was think they are pretty secure. The more targeted it is, undertaken of how spending cuts are being borne the greater the risk of avoidance arrangements and across the country? Have the Government sought to people trying to take the benefit of something which is differentiate between front-line and other staff? We not intended. Obviously, the broader the scheme, the certainly accept that levels of public sector employment less likely that is to happen. In the interim, I beg leave are one measure of vulnerability to spending cuts, but to withdraw the amendment. by taking a regional perspective the Government are averaging out high reliance on the public sector in some parts of the excluded regions. Debate in another Amendment 3 withdrawn. place highlighted a number of constituencies in the excluded regions which were in the top 10 for public sector employment. These include Oxford East in the The Deputy Chairman of Committees: My Lords, south-east, Lewisham East in London and Luton before calling Amendment 4, if Amendment 4 is agreed North in the eastern region. It was highlighted that to I cannot call Amendment 5 due to pre-emption. Newham has a public sector employment rate of GC 89 National Insurance Contributions Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2011] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 90

33.6 per cent but is excluded from the holiday, whereas any circumstances and therefore do not need this extra Macclesfield, with a rate of 11.8 per cent, is included. support, we should also recognise that there are areas The Government’s approach does not recognise differences of serious deprivation and that the Government should within regions and could be giving rise to significant look at programmes that, for example, will work with deadweight costs. However, at a regional level, London the mayor and the Greater London Assembly to make has a higher employment rate than three regions which sure that the capacity is there to generate new business are not excluded. It is difficult to see the sense in that. start-ups, particularly in areas of deprivation where The east of England is the region that I know best. training and job opportunities have not reached Currently, the east of England business start-up rate is the necessary levels. This is an important part of the below that of London, the south-east and some picture, but we must find mechanisms to come to the international comparator regions. The region requires aid of the pockets of deprivation in areas of affluence. a skills base that better meets the needs of regional I understand that this programme deals with areas businesses. It is also underperforming in terms of that have pockets of affluence amid more general levels of GVAcompared with London and the south-east poverty and job shortages. We must we find a way to and has a marked east-west split in economic performance. ensure that, through the collective network of programmes, Workplace earnings vary acutely, with workers employed areas of deprivation, no matter where they are, have a in Suffolk, Norfolk and Southend-on-Sea being the mechanism to stimulate an effective future. lowest paid in the region. Despite the region’s overall high employment rate, areas of high and persistent Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am very grateful to my unemployment remain. This has a major impact on noble friend Lady Kramer for answering the main levels of deprivation and health inequalities. While thrust of the questions put by the noble Lord, Lord some districts in the region are among the most prosperous McKenzie. This measure does need to be targeted. It in the country, 11 districts are rated among the most cannot be targeted in a way that picks out pockets of deprived in England. deprivation—of which there are a significant number The February labour market statistics are very in London and elsewhere. However, the basis on which worrying, particularly the 66,000 increase in the we came up with the holiday includes a relative regional unemployment rate among 16 to 24 year-olds. It appears effect. Of course, if we were to sweep away all the that the benefit of the holiday is simply not available geographic exclusions, the thrust of the holiday, which to some of the worst affected areas. Two of the top 15 will be to have a relative regional effect, would disappear. constituencies in the UK with the highest unemployment On the other hand, as my noble friend says, unlike rates are denied—both Luton constituencies, ranked other measures, this would not be an appropriate 168th and 269th, are excluded. A detailed analysis of measure to target in a subregional way—that would deprivation data suggests the same picture. Some areas not be feasible. of greater affluence are included in the scheme ahead We have gone with a broad regional analysis. The of others with greater levels of deprivation. simplest way to explain the basis for doing this is We accept that public sector employment is in some through the numbers for public sector employment as measure a proxy for vulnerability to spending cuts and a percentage of total employment by region. The that an incentive for private sector businesses can help. latest available data when the policy was formulated It is also accepted that if there are to be geographical showed that against a national UK average of 25.1 per exclusions and inclusions, the broader these are the cent public sector employment, the three lowest regions less likelihood there is of displacement activity. However, were the south-east with 22 per cent, London with the scale of the exclusions fundamentally calls into 22.5 per cent and the eastern region with 23.1 per cent. question the fairness of the policy as cast. I beg to That was the principal basis on which the exclusions move. were made. My noble friend made the critical point that I was Baroness Kramer: My Lords, I rise to speak because going to make about cost and targeting the money. If I grew up and have spent much of my political life in the three excluded regions were included, that would Greater London. Like most Londoners, I would defend increase the total cost of the holiday by some two-thirds. to the last any opportunity or benefit that might come To put it another way, out of the total holiday cost, to London. However, I recognise that if areas such as two-fifths of the benefit of the holiday would go to Greater London, the south-east and the eastern region—I those regions that are least dependent on government know the latter region less well—were included in this employment, and only three-fifths would go to those scheme, they would suck up the overwhelming majority regions that are more dependent—in some cases of funds that the Government could make available. considerably more—on government public sector At a time of great prosperity that might not matter, employment. At the heart of this measure is the belief but at present those of us who live in the better-off that the funds available should go to the regions that regions have to be conscious of how seriously difficult most need them on this metric. life can be in other parts of the country, particularly Indeed, the evidence in the public evidence session those which are losing a significant number of public on the Bill supported that. For example, representatives sector jobs and are dependent on those jobs. from the Federation of Small Businesses and the British Chambers of Commerce made it clear that the 4.30 pm south-east is more resilient than the rest of the UK In recognising the situation in places like London and new business formation would not be significantly and the south-east region, where I hope there will be harmed because the holiday was not available in these many new start-ups that would have happened under regions. It is worth reminding the Committee that all GC 91 National Insurance Contributions Bill[LORDS] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 92

[LORD SASSOON] “property business”. This would seem to open up the new and existing businesses in the south-east will possibility that the principal place at which a new benefit from the increase in the employer national business is carried on is overseas with subsidiary business insurance contribution threshold and in the reduction activities in the UK. Obviously, those overseas operations in corporation tax rates. Therefore, considerable benefits would not be within an excluded area. go to the region through our wider package of measures. Furthermore, even if those subsidiary activities were There were questions about the different definitions in the excluded regions, the national insurance holiday of regions and so on. The LEPs do not have geographic would still seem to apply. I ask myself whether this boundaries that equate to the regions and, in theory, was what was intended. I looked again briefly at could cross the regional boundaries that we are using. Clause 7(3), which the Minister prayed in aid in response In effect, they are groupings by local authority boundary. to an earlier amendment. If you have a business where Yes, there are other ways of doing it. We have taken the principal place of that business is outside the the regions as defined for the purpose of public sector excluded region, but nevertheless there are employees employment, which we think is the most cost effective operating in excluded regions, what in the Bill would way of targeting the benefit. stop a holiday applying to them? Having just argued that I do not want any excluded regions, I might seem Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank the Minister for to be arguing against myself. However, in terms of the that response and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, integrity of what is proposed here, it may be that I am for her contribution. I do not think that we will totally missing something. Perhaps the Minister would respond see eye to eye on this issue. The noble Baroness referred to that. Even if the subsidiary activities were in the to better-off regions, but that does not address the excluded region, the national insurance holiday would, point that regions are not homogeneous. For example, I suggest, still seem to apply. There seems to be nothing there are huge disparities across the eastern region, which precludes a new business being carried on in but because of areas of particular prosperity in aggregate any of the excluded regions or indeed for the national the area is counted out. As a result, those areas where insurance holiday to be available to employees based there is deprivation and high unemployment lose out. in the excluded regions so long as the principal place I agree that it is to be hoped that there are other at which the new business is carried on when it started arrangements which would enable jobs to be created is not in any of the excluded regions. Is that how the via one mechanism or another, but I believe that the Minister reads the legislation? regional focus is producing unfairness in the scheme. The principal place at which the business is carried The Minister said that the measure could not operate on will often be very clear, as the HMRC’s very helpful at a sub-regional level. I am not quite sure why not. note suggests. However, for an investment business or Exactly the same rules will apply. There simply will be a property business, it might be much less certain. The a different set of boundaries and descriptions. He core of such businesses might be based on the judgment referred to the fact that all businesses are benefiting of a few individuals; it would not necessarily be where from the national insurance changes to the threshold the portfolios, especially investment portfolios, are and corporation tax deductions. I guess that they are located or indeed where the back-office functions are all equally suffering or all suffering from the impact located or where the contracts for the investments or on consumer demand of the VAT increase. But that is property portfolios are executed. Where the business is probably a debate for another day. I do not think that primarily carried on could be quite nomadic or easy to we will make progress on this issue. Accordingly, I beg place in a favourable location, perhaps where the leave to withdraw the amendment. guiding minds of the business meet periodically to receive investment reports and make decisions about Amendment 4 withdrawn. changes to the portfolio. Does the Minister have a view on this? The noble Lord may feel able to say that Amendments 5 to 7 not moved. it has to be determined on a case-by-case basis and I accept that that may be so. Would he accept that this Clause 4 agreed. probing amendment highlights a layer of potential complexity which is introduced into the scheme again by having excluded regions? I beg to move. Clause 5 : Starting a new business

Amendments 8 and 9 not moved. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, in relation to what we are trying to achieve through the holiday scheme, it is important to create employment. The question of the Amendment 10 nature of the activity which is being engaged in is one where again we want to be as permissive as we can be, Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton consistent with the nature of the scheme. Although 10: Clause 5, page 3, line 32, leave out paragraphs (b) and (c) the noble Lord raised a number of other points going back to the question of boundaries between excluded Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, Amendment 10 and non-excluded regions, what we are principally focuses on the inclusion within the term “business” of talking about in the amendment is the type of trade or “property business” and “investment business”. Section business which the activity is engaged in. 263(6) of the Income Tax (Trading and Other Income) In that context, as well as making the general point Act 2005 includes a UK property business and an that what we are focusing on is maximising employment overseas property business within the definition of growth from a broad range of sectors, it might be GC 93 National Insurance Contributions Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2011] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 94 worth saying a word or two about what property The Minister has confirmed one point that surprised business includes. It covers activities including property me when I happened upon it. He has confirmed that rental, land rental and furnished holiday lettings; for so long as the principal place at which the new business example, I believe that the holiday could be particularly is carried on is not in any of the excluded regions, valuable in relation to furnished holiday lettings which, other parts of the business could be carried on anywhere of course, would typically operate in rural areas and including in the excluded regions, and if the employees often provide employment where there are not other in the excluded regions happened to be part of the first significant job opportunities. I would certainly like to 10 they would be eligible, or count towards, the national think that the noble Lord, in proposing this amendment, insurance holiday. I see nodding from the Box—perhaps was not intending to remove businesses from relief if I have been going on too long and they are nodding that could, for example, prevent people or discourage off—but, if that is right, it looks a bit daft in terms of people from providing holiday lettings, furnished cottages, the definitions we have been probing this afternoon. apartments and so on. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Similarly, on investment business, the Government’s view is that making investments and deriving profits Amendment 10 withdrawn. from them is no less inherently a business than buying and selling any other tradable item. As the noble Lord Amendment 11 says, there will be case-by-case determination by HMRC if there are questions about the validity of the trade or Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham of boundaries. 11: Clause 5, page 3, line 35, at end insert— “( ) a non-trading charity” 4.45 pm On the question of boundaries, the figures I quoted Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, from the perspective earlier were from the annual population survey statistics. of opposition I always rather approve of Bills starting I believe that, technically, the policy was founded on in our House, the upper House. It gives us a first shot the national accounts statistics—which I could read at the Minister and a chance to develop our own out if the Committee was interested—which present argument without in any way having been influenced the same picture. Indeed one set of numbers supports or prejudiced by any discussions elsewhere. In opposition the other, but the annual population data, which I and in government I often found it quite a challenge read out, gave a greater breakdown by the subregions. with Bills starting in the Lords because Members They present a similar picture, but I am advised that come well informed, with their own perspective, and we looked at the national accounts statistics in coming set the scene which is then followed elsewhere. up with the policy. This goes back, as the noble Lord On this occasion, however, the amendment that we said, to the question of a business being located in one want to press the Minister on with regard to non-trading place but jobs being created somewhere else. For simplicity, charities was dealt with extensively in the other place it is the place of the business that determines eligibility, in Committee but I must say, and I hope the Minister so there could be some jobs located elsewhere, for will bear this in mind, we did not think the response of which there is a benefit. This is true of all types of the Government on this issue was particularly convincing. business and there is nothing particular to property It seemed to rest on why the Opposition were introducing and investment. If a business employs staff, they are charities to a Bill which is all to do with the wealth-creating likely to be located in or close to the main place of sector. That may reflect a rather narrow perspective on business. That issue is not strictly related to these what is called, and should be defined as, wealth in our particular amendments. As I have explained, the society, but I will not go into too many philosophical—not Government would not want to see perfectly valid and to say economic—arguments on that. valuable categories of business—whether in property What it does raise for us, however, is a very odd or investment—being excluded from the creation of perspective indeed. As we understand it, the Government good and worthwhile employment in the targeted in their more benign moments are extolling the virtues regions. of the big society—that we are all in it together and we In view of that explanation, I hope that the noble can all contribute to it in our various ways. Among Lord will withdraw the amendment. those various ways there is no doubt at all that there is an expectation, and indeed a hope, that what will be Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank the Minister for generated is greater activity by those who work in his response. We propose to withdraw the amendment. charitable activities, rather than other more formal The purpose of framing the amendment and focusing wealth-creating organisations or public institutions. on property and investment business is to highlight The Government, of course, need this encouragement. again the particular conundrums that arise in respect After all, they are about significantly reducing the of businesses of that nature, which often—particularly public sector. I know that the noble Lord will say—I for smaller businesses—would be controlled by one am almost word perfect on these matters—that that is person or two people. Where that business is principally because of what they have inherited. There is never a located would often be where that individual or individuals suggestion that what the Government have inherited are, and the substantive back-office-type operations has perhaps nothing to do with the deficit of the last could be completely separate and different. It just Government but is an inheritance of the philosophy highlights the sort of problems that come from having with regard to society; namely, that big government is these definitions and having to guard the boundaries bad and small government, by definition, is inevitably of them. better. GC 95 National Insurance Contributions Bill[LORDS] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 96

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] That trading/non-trading question—to express the Small government means that functions are not issue in another way—goes to the heart of what we are going to be carried out for people with various needs trying to achieve by this holiday: an objective to by government, and those needs are going to be encourage new businesses and new entrepreneurs and unrecognised. It is not often that Ministers present for those individuals to set up businesses, as we have themselves entirely in that harsh light, although on already discussed, in areas with a high proportion of occasion I must say there are notable exceptions to public sector employment. It is not that it could, in a that kind generalisation. Ministers expect tasks to be wider sense, be a good thing to provide all sorts of done, not by public institutions but supported and other benefits to worthy causes, including non-trading sustained by public revenues. In other words, they charities. The fundamental purpose of the Bill is to want someone else to do it. encourage new entrepreneurs to set up businesses. In I recognise, of course, that wealth creation is of that context, if those business activities are structured enormous significance to our society at all times, but and are charities, it is important and quite appropriate particularly in the present economic situation. However, that the trading activity should benefit from the holiday the idea that we should exclude the active contribution in the Bill. of other institutions seems to me to require a pretty Of course, the Government value the important substantial defence. Why so? Why should a non-trading work that charities do. I heard the noble Lord, Lord charity not fit within this framework? Why are we not Davies of Oldham, talk about the Government in its inclusive on the institutions that can contribute to the benign moments valuing the big society. We value the nation’s welfare and the employment of individuals? big society at all times. Therefore, by extension, this is Why are the Government saying that in this respect, as indeed a benign government and I am grateful to him far as charities are concerned, there is no room in the for recognising that. Nevertheless, very tough choices inn? That does not seem to be based upon any economic have to be made, benign or otherwise. One of the perspective, nor one outstandingly of cost, but upon choices we have made is to continue to provide substantial the presumption that here we have a measure that is support to charities. So the total relief which charities overwhelmingly concerned with business and the wealth- and charitable giving get are something of the order of creating area. more than £3 billion each year. Of course, charities I am very far from decrying that; I am all in favour will also benefit from the increase in the employer’s of that which encourages new businesses to develop national insurance contribution threshold. and flourish. However, I cannot see why one should We certainly do not forget charities in many other just slam the door in the face of those developments ways. They are a critical component of the big society. which will contribute to the common good but are For a scheme that is intended to target a particular non-trading charities. If the noble Lord is just going direction, we believe that it is appropriate for the to fall back on the stance that was presented in the holiday to apply to, say, a new charity business, which other place, I can only say to him that sufficient time may be setting up a charity shop or an entrepreneurial has elapsed to consider the responses made at that activity, but that it should apply only in those particular time. They were unsatisfactory on that occasion to circumstances. I am sure the noble Lord did not many Members, certainly to my side of the committee intend this, but the tone of his remarks sounded, at considering the matter in the other place. They appear some points, as if we were depriving charities of manifestly unsatisfactory to us at this stage and I hope something. It is not that charities in regions of the that the Minister can give a response to these points. country, whether the eligible regions or the excluded regions, are being deprived of anything that they now Lord Newby: My Lords, I have a factual question to have; it is simply that, with the resources that we now ask the Minister on this. During my life, I have been have, we believe that it is appropriate and indeed the involved in setting up one or two charities where the purpose of the Bill to encourage the setting up of new legal basis of the charity has been a company limited businesses in areas with a high proportion of public by guarantee which has then got charitable status, so sector employment. that we have been filling in returns to Companies House as well as to the Charity Commission. What I do not understand is: if a charity’s legal basis is 5pm corporate and that charity is then employing staff, whether trading or not, why does it not mean that it Lord Davies of Oldham: I am grateful to the Minister. would be covered by the normal income tax and I was looking at Hansard and I see that the framework national insurance rules? in which I used the word “benign” for the Government was extremely limited and confined. I think I am Lord Sassoon: My Lords, in answer to my noble unlikely to use that adjective again in our debates. It friend Lord Newby’s point, my understanding is that was a one-off. there is indeed no distinction within the normal income I appreciate that charities enjoy various advantages tax and national insurance rules but that it is all a for the work that they do across the range of the question of trading versus non-trading. I believe that taxation system. Here is an opportunity in which the is a test which is independent of whether it would be a Government seek to encourage. Of course, I recognise company limited by guarantee with share capital, a the prime purpose of what they define as the wealth- partnership or anything else. If I am wrong on that creating sector but surely the Minister should appreciate point, I will correct myself but my understanding is how limited the opportunities are for legislation. Certainly, that the question is independent of the structure of as a Treasury Minister, he will know that although the the business. Treasury is in an advantageous position compared to GC 97 National Insurance Contributions Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2011] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 98 other departments, when it can identify available apprenticeships, it seems to me that the Bill is simpler resources—the Minister shakes his head and is engaging than what the noble Lord proposes. While it is a good my sympathy at this stage, but I will not use the word thing to promote apprenticeships, if I am starting up a “benign” again—it is not replete with opportunities to new business and am not necessarily going to employ legislate any more than any other department. With its apprentices, I could envisage a situation in which I Bills, it is in some degree of competition. might well employ 10 people. I raise this while declaring Here is a very modest little Bill with a clear objective. an interest. I formed a community interest company a I do not decry the clear objective, the main purpose, of year ago, which will start trading in this coming financial the Bill. I am merely saying that within the framework year. It is likely to be based in Birmingham. I do not of that main purpose, not a great deal is necessary to know whether the company will qualify for this measure, provide some opportunity for non-trading charities. I given it was formed but not trading last year, but we merely say that it is recognised on all sides that charities will be employing both part-time and full-time people always have an important role to play, but this Government in the area of education and sport. It may well be, if are placing increasing emphasis on the third sector in we are successful, that we will be employing more than those terms. Therefore, it ill behoves them to take a 10 people within three years. If some of those are negative view on what they can do to help within the coaches or if some of them are already qualified as framework of this modest little Bill. teachers, they will have skills. They will be working for Of course I shall withdraw my amendment today, us where they would not otherwise be working in an but I am by no means certain that we have seen the last area covered by the Bill, but technically they will not of this issue. be apprentices. I think that you would lose the opportunity to Amendment 11 withdrawn. encourage companies which are employing people who would not be eligible for apprenticeships by reducing Clause 5 agreed. the limit down from 10 to five. Of course, if the limit stays at 10, Amendment 14 has virtually no impact The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness because the number would go up only from 10 to 12. Gibson of Market Rasen): The noble Lord, Lord Therefore, partly in a self-interested sense—I have no Brougham and Vaux, told me that we were going to idea whether our company would qualify and this is have a comfort break. Is this so, or shall we carry on? not the reason that I am doing it—it seems to me that you may damage employment prospects by these Noble Lords: Carry on. amendments in a way that is not really intended.

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, as ever, I am grateful to Clause 6 : Qualifying employees my noble friend Lord Newby for pointing out some of the logic of what the Government are proposing. But Amendment 12 in this case it is not principally to accommodate up to Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham 10 employees that we have put the limit where it is. We recognise, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, says, that 12: Clause 6, page 3, line 43, leave out “10” and insert “5” the average number of employees that businesses typically hire in their first year is around two. Yes, it would be Lord Davies of Oldham: The Minister will be somewhat nice if a business, such as that which my noble friend shocked by the fact that I am being constructive at this Lord Newby may be starting, pushes up against the juncture. We have a later amendment that asks the limit. We would welcome lots of that. Minister to address himself to a modest change to the We have set the limit at 10 rather than five for two Bill, which he might define as an extra demand on reasons. It would enable more flexibility to accommodate resources, so I am being constructive with this amendment. staff turnover, so that although most new businesses Given the fact that we know that the vast majority of employ only two employees in their first year, those new businesses in their first year employ not many two employees may often be different and come and more than two persons, I think that the Government go on a temporary basis. This is a way of accommodating may be excessive in their proposition of 10. I suggest a rolling number even if at any one time there might five against a background where the Minister will be only two, three or four employees. Nevertheless, already have sniffed the air and decided that there within the period of the holiday, we allow 10 within must be an ulterior purpose. Indeed there is. As he the Bill. knows, with the later amendment I want to talk about On a similar point, we need to think about part-time apprenticeships and to extend the definition a little employees, a point to which we will come later. Certainly, more. it might have been helpful if a number of these We think that the vast majority of new businesses amendments had been grouped. This is the Government’s will benefit from what is on offer from this measure if proposed way of addressing the issue of part-time we restrict it to the first five employees. We have tabled employees without the need to introduce potentially the amendment to see whether the Minister agrees complex definitions of eligible employees based on with us. full-time equivalents. For example, some employers do not remunerate their staff by reference to the number Lord Newby: It is a pity that Amendment 14 is not of hours they work, but they might be remunerated grouped with these two amendments as they clearly according to the amount of work that they produce— fall together. While everybody supports promoting piecework. Again, providing for up to 10 qualifying GC 99 National Insurance Contributions Bill[LORDS] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 100

[LORD SASSOON] of work, and I suggest that our modern society will employees ensures that employers with part-time staff reflect rather more the significance of old-style or with staff whose hours are not predictable are not apprenticeships. disadvantaged and that such employers can take full When I say “old-style”, I refer to our great and advantage of the holiday. glorious industrial past. A predecessor of mine in As I anticipated, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is Oldham used to boast of there being 20,000 engineering thinking about where savings might be made in order employees in plants in the Manchester and Oldham to extend the scope of the scheme in other directions. area, and of hundreds of apprenticeships being available. It is perhaps worth saying that because of the distribution Young people streamed out of education—in some of new employers’ staff numbers, restricting the number cases, they might have been better advised to stay on of eligible employees from 10 to five would make a to earn different qualifications—into guaranteed disproportionately small reduction in the cost of the opportunities as apprentices in those big engineering scheme. That is not the main reason, as I have explained, works. Those days are long past; we all appreciate for resisting the amendment. The benefit of the that. However, what may be becoming more significant amendment would not be anything like what it might in our society is the development of skills and crafts seem on the face of it—relevant to the headline numbers. that mirror a period prior to the great industrialisation. On that basis, I would ask the noble Lord to withdraw I refer to small-scale businesses and crafts that often this amendment. do not need many full-time employees to justify an apprentice who in his or her turn learns their role. 5.15 pm That is of very great importance. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I will certainly In all my time when I was greatly involved in withdraw the amendment, although I am not sure that further education, one thing that drove me to distraction I entirely accept the arguments made against an was our inability to sell work experience in relation to amendment that I have not yet even moved. I am the education experience in college. This was particularly afraid that the Committee will have to endure that true for young women. There might be a course leading burden in a moment when I come to apprenticeships. I to a career with the cleanest, most attractive technology accept the Minister’s point that the number of new imaginable—for example, providing the electronic back-up employees is likely to be very limited, despite what the for pop groups, which should lighten up the heart of noble Lord, Lord Newby, said about his ambitious every youngster—but one would see engaging in those proposal. I wish him well in personal terms while activities exactly the same proportions of men to preserving strict neutrality towards the Bill. women and boys to girls as we had in our traditional pattern in the world of work. We have to move away The number of new companies will not be as extensive from that. as he indicated. The Minister is right to call in aid that Apprenticeships, particularly those in small companies point, and to refer to the limited savings represented relating to the operations that we are defining in the by the amendment. I hope that it will be accepted in Bill as worthy of support, potentially provide opportunities the spirit in which it was intended, namely as preparatory to break the mould of some dated employment practices. to the marginal addition to the Bill contained in the The Minister will tell me that this is a limited Bill and next amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. that the gains that will come from it are necessarily limited when viewed against the broader perspective Amendment 12 withdrawn. of the Government’s policies. I recognise that all too clearly but the Bill nevertheless seeks to help a particular Amendment 13 not moved. sector of small businesses. We should surely try to link that to the importance of developing apprenticeships Amendment 14 in our society and, accordingly, I beg to move. Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham Lord Sassoon: My Lords, apprenticeships are certainly 14: Clause 6, page 3, line 45, at end insert— important to this Government. Since the noble Lord, “()Anewbusiness which offers apprenticeship opportunities Lord Davies, has talked about them at some length, as which are taken up during the period of the holiday period shall he may know, it was National Apprenticeship Week be allowed to extend the number of qualifying employees to 12.” three weeks ago. I met electronic engineering apprentices working on the rebuilding of Blackfriars station and Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, apprenticeships its railway bridge. It was enormously encouraging to are a good thing. I know that I will get nods from all see the enthusiasm of those apprentices, who fully sides of the Committee when I say that. We have made understood how their apprenticeships could be the progress in recent years and it is important that we start of a very worthwhile and remunerative career make greater progress. One dimension that ought to path and that they had a very supportive employer—a worry us all is unemployment. It is a potentially greater much bigger employer than in the scheme we are problem across wide ranges of our society but discussing. However, when I asked them whether their unemployment visited on young people is a particularly south London schools had encouraged them down pernicious burden. We should not be surprised if we this path, it was depressing to be told that there had have difficulties with the attitudes of young people to been absolutely no mention of apprenticeships as a our society if it is impossible for them, whatever their route to go down on the part of those schools. Therefore, talents, to land a job. Apprenticeships are an important I can see that there is work to be done on fully way in which people can come within the framework encouraging young people to take up apprenticeships, GC 101 National Insurance Contributions Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2011] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 102 but it will not be for lack of government money. In eleventh or twelfth employee to be counted in and the 2011-12, we will provide £799 million for apprenticeships employer to enjoy the benefit of the holiday. Clearly in the 16 to 19 age range, which is an increase from the there would need to be rules about what counts as £780 million in 2010-11. This money will fund 230,000 part-time, and who gets added to whom, as it were, to apprenticeship places for that age group. Therefore, determine a full-time equivalent, and what happens if the importance of apprenticeships is absolutely not a part-timer leaves, but these should be capable of lost on me. being drawn up fairly simply. Apprentices and their national insurance are covered Part-time working has been an increasing phenomenon by the Bill in the same way as any other employee. On of the UK labour market in recent years, although it previous amendments we have talked about the number dipped slightly in the last quarter to December 2010. of employees that small businesses typically take on. Over the last year, it has increased by some 8 per cent That is a critical point. The ceiling that we have left in for men and over 1 per cent for women. Nearly three- the Bill of 10 employees provides sufficient headroom quarters of those employed part-time are women. Job to take on apprentices. A feature of apprentices is that sharing, especially for women, is an increasing way of there is not normally the turnover that we talked balancing caring responsibilities with work, and a about and it is not a question of part-time work. One removal of the default retirement age, which we thoroughly or two apprentices being taken on by a business should support, will lead possibly to older people working be accommodated within that headroom limit of 10. longer but on a part-time basis. We think that is a sufficient and appropriate way to Taking on part-time workers in the early stages of a accommodate what I completely agree is a critical part new business could help lower risk to the business and of the thrust needed to rebuild the nation’s workforce increase its survival rate. There is clearly a tension with the appropriate skills base for a thriving economy between this and having full-time employees who could in the 21st century. With that explanation, I again ask generate a benefit from the national insurance holiday. that the noble Lords follow the convention of withdrawing Being able to aggregate part-time employees on this their amendment. basis would go some way to ameliorating the tension between those two positions. I beg to move. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that concerted response and, of course, Baroness Kramer: My Lords, I want to speak I withdraw the amendment. particularly to this amendment because it is, in a sense, a real request. Part-time working and job sharing are Amendment 14 withdrawn. really important. The Government have done a great deal to promote, indirectly, part-time work through, in Amendment 15 effect, a pupil premium that now goes down to the age of two. This for many women means that there is a Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton form of very attractive childcare available from the 15: Clause 6, page 3, line 45, at end insert— age of two, even for disadvantaged families, making “()Anewbusiness shall be able to treat two or more part-time part-time working far more feasible than it might have employees, up to the value, in terms of hours worked, of a been in the past. The culture, however, needs to change, full-time employee, as a single person for the purposes of the and it seems to me that this Bill, because it resists relief available.” using the language of part-time work and job sharing, falls into that ongoing trap of not challenging the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, to a certain culture and pushing that change forward. Part-time extent the Minister has already pre-empted this and work is often seen as a temporary accommodation, given us a response which will be, I think, that in a and as the lowest skilled work—that is not always true, sense there is room for part-time workers within the but it is the general image—rather than as something headroom that the count of 10 will provide. Nevertheless, that can be embedded permanently into the way that a I will seek to pursue the argument. company functions. The technical note issued by HMRC in August adds some clarification on the maximum number of 5.30 pm qualifying employees. In particular it makes clear that I will give a simple example. When I was on the employees earning below the secondary threshold—that board of Transport for London, we had to put together is the start of national insurance obligations—still an urgent and complex project to introduce the congestion count towards the 10, even if they are part-time or charge. The managing director role to achieve that casual employees. Even if there is no employer national required all kinds of complex engineering and marketing insurance due and no benefit from the holiday, they skills and was done as a job share. Two highly professional still count against the number 10. people who preferred not to work full time managed The purpose of this amendment, which I accept an exceedingly complex project with very tight timelines would need some tidying up to be acceptable, is to and carried it through brilliantly. It was a very good enable part-time employees to be aggregated when example of how many jobs lend themselves to a job determining the first 10 employees of a new business. share or part-time structure without it being career It may well be that individual part-time employees do limiting. It would be great to see the Bill—and all not earn above the secondary threshold so that, irrespective other legislation—used to open up that potential and of their employment, a holiday would not produce a possibility, and to underpin the language of part-time benefit for the new business, but it may allow the work. GC 103 National Insurance Contributions Bill[LORDS] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 104

[BARONESS KRAMER] Amendment 16 withdrawn. The Minister says that with 10 posts there will be scope for part-time work, but more explicit recognition Clause 6 agreed. and underpinning of part-time work and job sharing would be exceedingly valuable, and no additional costs Clause 7 agreed. would be attached to the programme.

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I echo my noble friend Clause 8 : Making of deductions or refunds Lady Kramer’s view of the importance of job sharing. I, too, could introduce a small reminiscence. I have Amendment 16 had job-sharing personal executive assistants working for me, and I know that the arrangement can work Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham extremely well. It gives people who, for example, have 16: Clause 8, page 5, line 32, at end insert— children, more opportunities to work. I have seen this “( ) HMRC will ensure that all staff dedicated to the administration in action and I and the Government encourage it. of deductions or refunds under the terms of Part 2 of this Act are The difficulty in this Bill is that they will be working additional employees and not taken from other tasks necessary in the technical framework of tax and national insurance for the continuation of the other functions of HMRC.” legislation. One feature of the NICs and tax framework is that there is no distinction in the HMRC construct Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I have no doubt between full-time and part-time work. Therefore, we that Amendment 16 may cause a slight flurry in the decided that the way to accommodate this was through dovecotes. I hope that the Administration recognise the relatively high limit on the total number of employees. that we are seeking to guarantee the success of the Putting together a construct for this piece of national scheme by offering protection for the administrative insurance legislation that distinguished between full-time resources devoted to it. However, I also see significant and part-time staff would be enormously challenging. figures in the Treasury, not least the Minister himself, This was recognised in the public evidence session by looking somewhat askance at the fact that we might the Federation of Small Businesses, which concluded have in public statute a definition of who should do that it would add complexity for the employers who the job of the Inland Revenue with regard to this issue. were affected. This is a probing amendment and I do not expect There is nothing here that discourages part-time the Minister to accept it on this occasion, although in employees, and the 10 employee limit should fully due course he may be persuaded. The intention is to accommodate the likely demand, except in the very identify one obvious factor. We fully recognise that the marginal case of the few thousand firms—perhaps public service is under considerable challenge at present, 2 per cent—that would be restricted by the limit. that lots of posts will be lost and that an awful lot of Again, I ask noble Lords to withdraw the amendment. people are under pressure. Yet this scheme not only requires additional resources but has particular complexity Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I will certainly built into it. There is no doubt that the Bill would be withdraw the amendment in due course. I am grateful regarded as a matter-of-course administrative exercise to both noble Lords who have spoken. The noble if it covered all regions of the country and the excepted Baroness, Lady Kramer, spoke with authority and areas were brought in. We all appreciate the complexity passion about the importance of part-time work and and difficulty of the position, and the amount of of job sharing. She made a hugely important point resources that will be required to ensure that the about cultural change and recognising that part-time scheme works. Of course we share with the Minister work is not simply temporary work in low-level, low-paid the ambition that this will prove to be successful. jobs. As she explained, very senior job shares will However, there are clear administrative implications. I increasingly form part of the system. am sure that the Minister has thought about these I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, said very seriously and will give me all the reassurances about the difficulty of constructing this within the that I could possibly want. Bill, and I take the point about NICs and the tax system not making a difference between part-time and Lord Sassoon: It is a high bar to be able to give the full-time employees. We will have some debates tomorrow noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, all the reassurances on the Pensions Bill, and on the attempt to get some that he could wish for, but I will attempt to give him aggregation of people in part-time jobs for national some reassurance. The way in which HMRC is going insurance purposes so that they get credited at least about administering the holiday is that it has devised for pension purposes—but that is a debate for another new processes for dealing with the holiday alongside day. the other day-to-day tasks in its casework. Additional I recognise that the level of 10 employees gives steps have been incorporated already in its day-to-day some headroom to deal with this, although I am caseworking, so it has not been necessary to employ disappointed that the Minister could not explicitly new staff. The training has already been done. It shows cater for part-time workers if for no other reason—it how HMRC is able to adopt a flexible approach to is not really the one that I had thought about—than to allocating its resources as and when schemes in tax push the issue of the cultural change that is needed so and national insurance change. HMRC staff have that we properly value and encourage, where appropriate, been engaged in this work since September. It would part-time working and job sharing. I beg leave to not be possible to use new employees, if that was being withdraw the amendment. suggested. I understand the probing nature of this GC 105 National Insurance Contributions Bill[28 FEBRUARY 2011] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 106 discussion but using new employees would not technically that will give us the fullest evaluation of a scheme that work as staff are already trained and running the has its controversial elements as well as carrying a scheme alongside their other responsibilities without principle to which the Opposition also subscribe. I beg the need to employ additional staff. to move. I hope that the noble Lord has the reassurances he seeks, such that he might be minded to withdraw 5.45 pm Amendment 16, as I think he said that he would. Lord Newby: My Lords, I support the principles behind these amendments. This is a very specific scheme Lord Davies of Oldham: I am grateful to the noble and it should be possible to tell whether it has worked. Lord. I feel somewhat encouraged. I did not have the If it does not work—we hope that it will—the Treasury slightest doubt that the issue was expressed entirely in will be in the happy position of not forgoing revenue his own words and was not drafted for him by a senior that it had expected to forgo. There would be an official. If that had not been the case, I would have unused pot, as it were. If, as I fear may be the case, the had a few doubts. I am very grateful for the response scheme as outlined does not yield the number of new that he gave. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. jobs that the Government hope, it would be very useful, after a year, to see how—to the extent that Amendment 16 withdrawn. funding is available for job creation in the regions—it might be more effectively deployed. Clause 8 agreed. As I mentioned at Second Reading, an obvious extension to the scheme would be to provide a modest Clauses 9 and 10 agreed. ability for existing businesses in the designated regions to employ additional staff and qualify for a holiday. In those circumstances, it would be perfectly possible to After Clause 10 say that every small business in the designated areas could employ an additional person and qualify for the Amendment 17 holiday, so that the scope of the scheme is extended but keeps within the expenditure envelope already set Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham aside for it. Whether that is possible will depend on 17: After Clause 10, insert the following new Clause— whether the scheme works as intended. The only way “Consideration of extension or modification of scheme we will know that is if we have a report as set out in ( ) The Treasury shall, by a date no later than six months after these amendments. Royal Assent, and then again after a further 12 months, review the operation of the regional holiday scheme under Part 2 of this Act to assess if it should be reapplied to different areas of the Lord Sassoon: My Lords, we certainly agree that country. generally tax policy-making and the effects of tax ( ) If a recommendation is made to extend or modify the measures should be more transparent. It is for that application of the scheme, the Secretary of State shall bring about reason and because of the commitments given in such changes by order, to be subject to the approval of both another place, which I shall run through in a moment, House of Parliament.” that we do not believe that Amendment 17 is necessary. However, we completely share the commitment to Lord Davies of Oldham: In moving Amendment 17, transparency. Therefore, it may be helpful to the I shall speak also to Amendment 18. They clearly have Committee if I echo the undertaking given by my the same thinking behind them; namely, the scheme’s honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary in another advisability in circumstances where we recognise the place to provide Parliament and the public with updates challenge that the Bill presents. The noble Lord was after the end of the tax year on the operation of the good enough to indicate a moment ago the administrative scheme, including information at regional level, although arrangements that have been put in place regarding the precise requirements set out in the amendment the Bill. It needs to succeed and we need to be able to could raise legal issues, for example on confidentiality identify its success. As we have indicated, we have real of taxpayer data. reservations about certain parts of the operation, The factual report that we envisage would cover, particularly the concept of the exempted regions. regionally and nationally, the number of new businesses Therefore, we want a full evaluation of the virtues applying, the number of applications rejected, the of the scheme. Amendment 17 proposes that we should number of qualifying employees for whom a holiday get an early report from the Treasury on its operation has been claimed and the amount claimed. The main and Amendment 18, which is linked in the discussion, difference between the commitment that the Government proposes that there should be a full report on the have made and this amendment is that the latter would impact of the scheme. The measure has its exempted require a constituency level breakdown even though regions, but it has a highly specific and particular the scheme is regional in England and will not cover approach to an important issue, which is bound to every English constituency. affect particular areas. As the exemptions have been I remind the Committee that during proceedings in made on a clear identification of where the economic Committee in another place, amendments put forward need is for this stimulus—that is why the stimulus is with the aim of altering the holiday to a constituency partial rather than national—it is only right that we basis were discussed at some length. My honourable are in a position to evaluate whether that strategy friend the Exchequer Secretary said then that the proves to be successful. Amendment 18 seeks a report Government do not believe that a constituency-based GC 107 National Insurance Contributions Bill[LORDS] National Insurance Contributions Bill GC 108

[LORD SASSOON] scrutinise the way that the scheme will operate in scheme is either appropriate or feasible. Since we have practice, and that noble Lords will withdraw their a regional scheme including the whole of Wales, Scotland amendment. and Northern Ireland, it does not seem logical to provide a constituency level breakdown even if it was Lord Davies of Oldham: I am grateful to the Minister; possible to do so. A regional scheme and a regional half a loaf is better than none. The extent to which he analysis at the end of each tax year will be available for defined how far he was able to go in response to the scrutiny. Therefore, we do not think that it is necessary amendment was some consolation. I appreciate his to enshrine that in an amendment to the Bill. I refer to remarks. I am well aware of the fact that no one in Amendment 18—I said Amendment 17 at one point, Committee is particularly concerned about constituency. and will come to that in a moment. I am also well aware that the issue was raised in the A technical point in the amendment refers to a other place, where concerns were extensive. The Minister budget for the scheme. For the avoidance of doubt, will forgive me for seeking to identify that this might businesses can be confident that there is no budgetary be the basis for a degree of transparency that would be constraint. The holiday will continue as proposed, welcomed by all those who are directly answerable to regardless of the number of applicants. The expected the electorate. I am grateful for his response and beg costs of the scheme were set out in the policy-costing leave to withdraw the amendment. documentation at the time of the Budget last year. Amendment 17 withdrawn. Amendment 17 is aimed at providing flexibility to modify the holiday. As I have explained, the Government Amendment 18 not moved. want to target available resources on the regions most dependent on public sector employment. We want to do so in the way that we have discussed at length with Clause 11 : Interpretation of Part 2 regard to the qualifying businesses, the numbers of employees and so on. However, introducing flexibility Amendments 19 and 20 not moved. to change the details of the scheme, as proposed in the Clause 11 agreed. amendment, would increase uncertainty for those who might potentially benefit and would risk inhibiting Clauses 12 to 15 agreed. decision-making for those who need to know with some certainty what the holiday permits. I hope that I Bill reported without amendment. have provided considerable reassurance on the questions of transparency and of the ability of the House to Committee adjourned at 5.54 pm. WS 87 Written Statements[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Statements WS 88

Preparation of the G20 Meeting of Finance Ministers Written Statements and Governors (18 and 19 February) Monday 28 February 2011 The council endorsed EU terms of reference in preparation for a meeting of G20 Finance Ministers and central bank governors to be held in Paris on 18 and 19 February. Discussions are expected to focus ECOFIN on the global economy and the G20 framework for Statement growth, the reform of the International Monetary System, commodities, financial regulation, and other issues such as development. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): My right honourable friend the Chancellor Discharge procedure in respect of the implementation of the Exchequer (George Osborne) has today made of the 2009 EU Budget the following Written Ministerial Statement. The council adopted a recommendation to the The Economic and Financial Affairs Council was European Parliament on the discharge to be given to held in Brussels on 15 February 2011. The following the Commission for implementation of the EU’s general items were discussed: budget for 2009. The Dutch, Swedish and UK delegations Economic Governance withheld their consent on the discharge. This marks a step change in the UK Government’s approach to The council held a first discussion on a package of financial management in the EU; the Government legislative measures intended to strengthen economic consider it unacceptable that the European Court of governance in the EU, particularly in the euro area, in Auditors has not been able to grant a positive statement order to address the challenges posed by the sovereign of assurance on the EU Budget as a whole for the debt crisis and prevent the emergence of similar problems 16th year in succession. in the future, while fully respecting the provisions in the UK’s protocol to the treaty. In line with the deadlines Together with the Netherlands and Sweden, the set by the European Council, the presidency’s intention Government also submitted a joint declaration, setting is to reach agreement on a general approach on all six out concrete actions that would improve financial proposals at the 15 March ECOFIN. management (see attached). Savings Taxation Directive and Anti-fraud Agreements Budget guidelines for 2012 with Third Countries The council adopted conclusions setting out its The council held an orientation debate on proposals priorities for the EU’s general budget for 2012, which to strengthen the provisions of the savings directive on will serve as the basis for negotiation with the European the taxation of savings interest, and on antifraud and Parliament and the Commission later this year. The tax information exchange agreements with Andorra, conclusions emphasise the need to take into account Liechtenstein, Monaco, San Marino and Switzerland. economic and budgetary constraints at the national The Government support the presidency’s aim to maintain level. The Government believe that the efforts made to momentum on these proposals, to enable the council curb the EU budget’s growth in 2011 must be stepped to make progress as soon as possible. up for the 2012 budget. Preparation of the European Council (24 and 25 March Joint declaration signed by the Netherlands, Sweden 2011) and the United Kingdom Macroeconomic and fiscal guidance With reference to: The council adopted conclusions on macroeconomic the European Court of Auditors’ annual report on and fiscal guidance for the EU, under the new European implementation of the 2009 EU Budget; Semester. The Government believe that the reform priorities set out in the conclusions are important and discharge to be given to the Commission in respect necessary steps to help promote economic growth in of the implementation of the budget for the financial the EU and its member states. year 2009; Appointment of an Executive Board Member of the draft council recommendation 5891/11 FIN 47 PE-L European Central Bank 14, + ADD 1, + ADD 2; Ministers adopted a recommendation on the the Netherlands, Sweden and the United Kingdom nomination of Peter Praet (Belgium) as an executive are concerned that: board member of the European Central Bank to succeed Gertrude Tumpel-Gugerell, whose term of for the 16th year in succession, the European Court office expires on 31 May. of Auditors has been unable to grant a positive unqualified statement of assurance on the EU Budget Implementation of the Stability and Growth Pact as a whole; and The council took note of a communication from the Commission assessing action taken by Bulgaria, the slow pace of reforms to the financial management Cyprus, Finland and Denmark in order to bring their of EU funds is detrimental to the credibility of the government deficits below 3 per cent of GDP. It was EU budget as a whole. agreed that these member states had taken effective the Netherlands, Sweden and United Kingdom action regarding their deficits, and that no further highlight that independent EU-level audit is a crucial steps under the EU’s excessive deficit procedure were function and we therefore strongly support the work required at present. of the European Court of Auditors; WS 89 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 90

the Netherlands, Sweden and the United Kingdom In conjunction with the Minister for Employment agree with the European Court of Auditors that improving Relations, Consumer and Postal Affairs, Ed Davey the quality of spending should be a high priority in MP, I have invited Dame Carol Black, the National order to attain significantly better results in the annual Director for Health and Work, and David Frost, current report on the 2010 budget; Director General of the British Chambers of Commerce, the Netherlands, Sweden and the United Kingdom to co-chair an independent review of sickness absence want to see concrete steps towards achieving the following to establish how we can mitigate the economic losses, specific objectives before the council debates discharge as well providing effective support for those who would of the 2010 Budget: benefit from our help. The report will be jointly sponsored by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills member states are responsible for implementing the and the Department for Work and Pensions. The majority of funds from the EU Budget in co-operation review will explore how the current system could be with the Commission. Member states are responsible changed to help more people stay in work, thereby for conducting checks and for putting in place an reducing costs. In addition, the review will examine effective and efficient control system. As part of a whether the balance of these costs are appropriately closer dialogue with member states, the Commission shared and make recommendations for reform. is invited to make proposals and to strengthen member state responsibility. Member states should The coalition Government are committed to reducing account for the administration of EU funds at the burden of regulation of business in line with the national level, including the proper functioning of objectives of the growth agenda. The sickness absence internal control systems; review will be conducted in this context, as well as informing the work of the existing employment law for reasons of transparency and in order to incentivise review. As such, the sickness absence review will sound financial management, member states’ annual complement the Government’s ongoing welfare reform summaries should be made publicly available. At agenda. the same time, member states should be obliged to provide analysis of financial management data as an integral part of the annual summaries; and Finance: Regulation in support of a risk-based approach to auditing, a Statement more structured dialogue between the Court of Auditors, the Commission and member states is necessary. The Commission should bring forward The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord proposals to enable a stronger focus on the audit of Sassoon): The Government have today presented to larger projects and institutions which have a proven Parliament a consultation document, A New Approach track record of risk. to Financial Regulation: Building a Stronger System [Cm 8012], which provides further detail on the coalition The forthcoming negotiations of the financial Government’s proposals to reform the framework of regulation provide an opportunity to take forward financial regulation in the UK following the complete these proposals. failure of the tripartite system over many years to identify or tackle the build-up of risk in the financial system. That failure precipitated the biggest financial Employment: Sickness Absence crisis for a generation, leading to a run on a major high-street bank and the part-nationalisation of two Statement of the largest banks in the world. We need a wholly new approach. The reforms detailed today will address the fundamental weakness of the regulatory system The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, created in 1997. This document is available on the Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My Treasury website. right honourable friend the Minister for Employment This document expands and further consults on the (Chris Grayling) has made the following Written Government’s proposals, set out last year, to disband Ministerial Statement. the Financial Services Authority and establish a new I wish to inform the House that today the Department system of more specialised and focused financial services for Work and Pensions, together with the Department regulators. The Government’s reforms focus on three for Business, Innovation and Skills, will be launching key institutional changes: the creation of an independent an independent review of sickness absence in Great Financial Policy Committee (FPC) in the Bank of Britain. England, the establishment of a new Prudential Regulation It is estimated that around 300,000 people Authority (PRA) as a subsidiary of the Bank and the (approximately 1 per cent of the employed population) creation of an independent conduct-of-business regulator, move on to sickness-related benefits (incapacity benefit the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA), which was or employment and support allowance) each year. formerly provisionally titled the “consumer protection These individuals make up a sizeable proportion of and markets authority”. This corrects the failures of long-term sickness absences and around half of the the past by creating regulators with clear objectives total flow on to ESA every year. They constitute a and the powers needed to deliver them. significant cost to taxpayers, in addition to the costs A New Approach to Financial Regulation: Building a incurred by employers covering absences, and the Stronger System outlines the Government’s thinking opportunity costs to the economy in missing out on on a range of issues, including: the objectives of the the contribution of these individuals. new regulatory bodies and the factors that they must WS 91 Written Statements[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Statements WS 92 consider in fulfilling their objectives; the levers and available resources. The consultation sets out the likely tools that the FPC will have at its disposal to Government’s initial thoughts and invites views from protect financial stability; the PRA’s judgment-led interested persons or organisations. approach in regulating firms; the FCA’s more proactive The consultation document has been placed in the and focused approach to regulating conduct in financial Library. Copies are available to honourable Members services and markets; accountability measures for the from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the new regulatory bodies; and co-ordination mechanisms Printed Paper Office. that will determine how the regulatory authorities will work together, and with regulated firms. Our reforms will create a stronger regulatory structure that reinforces Housing: Social Housing stability in financial markets and helps to deliver Statement better outcomes for consumers. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Following the consultation, the Government will Department for Communities and Local Government present a further White Paper, including a draft Bill (Baroness Hanham): My right honourable friend the for pre-legislative scrutiny, in the spring. The Government Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant expect the new regulatory structure to be in place by Shapps) has made the following Written Ministerial the end of 2012. Statement. I am today publishing a paper which sets out the Fixed-Term Parliaments Bill [HL] next steps in the Government’s reform of the social Statement housing system, in light of the responses we have received to our policy document, Local Decisions: A The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace Fairer Future For Social Housing, published in November of Tankerness): My honourable friend the Minister for last year. The paper which I am publishing today also Political and Constitutional Reform (Mark Harper) contains a summary of those responses and a copy has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. has been placed in the Library of the House. The Constitution Committee’s eighth report The reforms to social housing which are being summarised its inquiry into the Bill, and I am grateful taken forward in the Localism Bill will give local to the committee for the careful scrutiny it has given authorities far greater freedom and flexibility in the the Bill. Today the Government have responded to the types of tenancies they can grant to social housing committee’s report by means of a Command Paper tenants; in the way they allocate their social housing; that has been laid before both Houses of Parliament. and in how they discharge their main homelessness duty. The reforms will also significantly improve mobility for social tenants. The reforms to tenure will only Health: Personality Disorders affect new social tenancies. We will ensure that the Statement security and rights of existing social tenants continue to be protected in law. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, I am publishing the response earlier than the usual Department of Health (Earl Howe): My honourable three-month deadline from the end of consultation as friend the Minister of State, Department of Health I believe it will be useful to inform debate on the social (Paul Burstow) has made the following Written Ministerial housing provisions in the Bill. Statement. The response to the consultation was overwhelming. I am publishing today a joint Department of Health Nearly 700 responses were received from individuals and Ministry of Justice consultation document on an and organisations. There was a very strong response offender personality disorder pathway implementation from local authorities and other social landlords who, plan. in the main, welcomed the new freedoms and flexibilities which the Government are giving them. This document sets out the Government’s plans to reshape services, interventions and treatments for offenders The Localism Bill will give the Secretary of State with severe personality disorders. These plans would the power to issue a direction to the Regulator of be implemented within the existing resources devoted Social Housing on a tenancy standard and a direction to this area across the National Health Service and on mobility. I am taking the opportunity presented National Offender Management Service. The proposals through the paper that I am publishing today to set take account of the learning from the dangerous and out the Government’s thinking on what we believe severe personality disorder programme, introduced by should be contained in both of these directions. I the previous Administration, and are aimed to improve intend to publish a full technical draft of the directions identification and assessment, increase treatment capacity, on tenure and mobility later this year, when they will provide additional psychological support in prisons be subject to a full consultation. and strengthen oversight for those released from custody. This consultation is an important opportunity for Immigration professional bodies, service providers in health and Statement criminal justice, patients and the public to comment on how best to ensure continuity of care through the The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- development of effective service pathways across custodial Jones): My honourable friend the Minister of State for settings and in the community, to improve care, protect Immigration (Damian Green) has today made the the public and make the best use possible of the following Written Ministerial Statement. WS 93 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 94

I am announcing proposals to change the fees for Annex A immigration and nationality applications made to the Out of Country UK Border Agency. The Government review these Visas—non PBS Unit Costs Current Fees Proposed Fees fees on a regular basis and makes appropriate changes (New products *) April 2011 Oct/Nov 2010 April 2011 as necessary. I will shortly lay regulations for fees that Visit visa - long 5 £140 £450 £486 are set at levels above the normal administrative costs year of the service. We have continued with our strategic Visit visa - long 10 £140 £650 £702 approach to charging, setting certain fees above cost year on the basis of the value of the service. Short Term £140 £70 £140 Student <12 These fees must be set out in regulations before Months Visa both Houses of Parliament and are subject to the Settlement £391 £750 £810 affirmative procedure. The fees allow us to generate Settlement - £458 £1,680 £1,814 revenue which is used to fund the UK immigration Dependant Relative system and to set certain fees below cost recovery to Certificate of £355 £245 £265 support wider government objectives. The revenue Entitlement generated will contribute towards securing our borders Other Visa £163 £245 £265 and controlling migration for the benefit of the UK. I Transit Visa £73 £47 £51 will lay another set of regulations in Parliament for Vignette Transfer £163 £93 £100 the fees for immigration and nationality services that Fee are set at/below the cost of the service. Call Out/Out of £134/hr 130/hr max £130/hr A table with details of all the proposed increases is Hours Fee £939/day Forwarding n/a £65 £70 set out at Annex A. The table includes indicative unit documents to costs for each application for FY 11/12. The unit cost Commonwealth is the estimated average cost to UK Border Agency of Countries/Overseas Territories processing each application. Although our unit costs (additional fee) * are not fixed over the course of the financial year, we Handling n/a £48 £50 publish unit costs so it is clear which fees we set over applications on cost and by how much. Further details of all fees behalf of Commonwealth changes will be outlined in the Explanatory Memoranda Countries/ accompanying both the regulations. Overseas * Given the need to reduce public spending, we have Territories Single entry visa to £70 n/a £70 had to carefully consider our fee levels to ensure that Replace Biometric we can maintain good service levels to our customers Residence Permit and secure the border for the general public. In principle Overseas * it is the right time to ask migrants to make a greater contribution to funding the UK Border Agency than Visa – PBS (New Unit Costs Current Fees Proposed Fees was previously the case. Therefore we should continue products *) April 2011 Oct/Nov 2010 April 2011 to seek a shift in the funding provided by migrants to deliver the border and immigration system with a Tier 1 £432 £750 £800 (Entrepreneur, consequent reduction in the burden on UK taxpayers. Investor, In developing these proposals, we have sought to Exceptional Talent) - Main Apps limit increases so as to avoid any broader economic Tier 1 £432 £750 £800 impact (particularly on the most economically sensitive (Entrepreneur, route of all, short-term visit visas). Investor, Exceptional Talent) I believe these proposals continue to strike the right - Dependants balance between maintaining secure and effective border Tier 1 CESC - £432 £700 £720 controls, and ensuring that our fees structure does not Main Apps inhibit the UK’s ability to attract those migrants and Tier 1 CESC - £432 £700 £800 visitors who make a valued contribution. It is right Dependants that those who benefit directly from the immigration Tier 1 (Transition) n/a £332 £332 Tier 1 (Transition) n/a £300 £300 system should pay to meet the costs of securing the CESC UK’s borders. This will help to support the immigration Tier 1 Post Study - £459 £344 £474 system, maintain public confidence, and ensure that Main migration is managed for the benefit of the UK. Tier 1 Post Study - £459 £344 £474 Dependants Full details on how to apply for all of these Tier 2 Gen, Sport £250 £350 £400 services will be provided on our website, & MOR - Main www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk. Apps Tier 2 Gen, Sport £250 £350 £400 Annex A & MOR - Out of Country Dependants Visas—non PBS Unit Costs Current Fees Proposed Fees Tier 2 ICT £227 n/a £350 (New products *) April 2011 Oct/Nov 2010 April 2011 <12Mths - Main Apps & Visit visa - short £140 £70 £76 Dependants * Visit visa - long 2 £140 £245 £265 Tier 2 ICT £227 n/a £315 year <12Mths - CESC Main Applicant * WS 95 Written Statements[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Statements WS 96

Visa – PBS (New Unit Costs Current Fees Proposed Fees In UK - Non PBS Unit Costs Current Fees Proposed Fees products *) April 2011 Oct/Nov 2010 April 2011 (New products *) April 2011 Oct/Nov 2010 April 2011

Tier 2 CESC - £250 £300 £360 ILR PEO CESC £243 £300 £675 Main Apps Dependant ILR Dependant £299 £1,680 £1,814 Tier 2 CESC - £250 £300 £400 Relative Postal Dependants ILR Dependant £299 £2,050 £2,214 Tier 4 - Main Apps £289 £220 £255 Relative PEO Tier 4 - £289 £220 £255 LTR Non Student £418 £500 £550 Dependants Postal Main LTR Non Student £418 £150 £275 Tier 5 Tem Work & £206 £130 £190 Postal Dependant YM LTR Non Student £419 £800 £850 Tier 5 CESC £206 £120 £171 PEO Main Tier 5 CESC - £206 £130 £190 LTR Non Student £419 £200 £425 Dependants PEO Dependant Transfer of £219 £200 £216 N.B. CESC = Council of Europe Social Charter reduction Conditions Postal Main Applications to the Channel Islands under Employment and Study routes Transfer of £219 £50 £108 attract Tier 2 & Tier 4 fees and costs respectively. Conditions Postal Dependant In Country Transfer of £219 £600 £648 Nationality (New Unit Costs Current Fees Proposed Fees Conditions PEO products *) April 2011 Oct/Nov 2010 April 2011 Main Transfer of £219 £150 £324 Naturalisation (UK £238 £780 £836 Conditions PEO Citizenship) Single 1 Dependant Naturalisation (UK £319 £1,010 £1,294 Travel Documents £241 £220 £238 Citizenship) Joint 1 Adult (CoT) Naturalisation (UK £238 £780 £836 Travel Documents £241 £77.50 £77.50 Citizenship) Spouse 1 Adult CTD Nationality £238 £580 £620 Travel Documents £152 £138 £149 Registration Adult 1 Child (CoT) Nationality £238 £500 £540 Travel Documents £152 £49 £49 Registration Minor 2 Child CTD Nationality £319 £600 £810 Replacement £37 £30 £37 Registration Multiple Biometric Minor Main 2 Residence Permit Nationality £238 £150 £270 Mobile Case £2,211 £15,000 £6,000 + PEO Registration Multiple working Fee Minor Dependant 2 (Premium+) Renunciation of £238 £208 £225 Call Out/Out of £134/hr £130/hr max £130/hr Nationality Hours Fee £939/day Nationality Reissued £88 £80 £86 Work Permit £123 £20 £22 Certificate Technical Changes Nationality Right of £162 £150 £162 Residual FLR IED £246 £500 £550 Abode Postal - Main Nationality £88 £100 £80 Residual FLR IED £238 £150 £275 Reconsiderations Postal - Status Letter £88 £80 £86 Dependants (Nationality) Residual FLR IED £148 £800 £850 Non-Acquisition £88 £80 £86 PEO - Main Letter (Nationality) Residual FLR IED £148 £200 £425 Nationality £88 n/a £86 PEO - Dependants Correction to Residual FLR BUS £148 £850 £1,000 Certificate * Postal - Main 1 Additional £80 per applicant is included to cover the ceremony fee. Residual FLR BUS £148 £250 £500 2 Additional £80 per applicant is required to cover the ceremony fee should the Postal - minor turn 18 during the application process. This will be requested at point of Dependants decision. Employment LTR £362 £500 £550 outside PBS Postal Employment LTR £362 £150 £275 In UK - Non PBS Unit Costs Current Fees Proposed Fees outside PBS Postal (New products *) April 2011 Oct/Nov 2010 April 2011 Dependant ILR Postal Main £243 £900 £972 Employment LTR £303 £800 £850 outside PBS PEO ILR Postal £243 £250 £486 Dependant Employment LTR £303 £200 £425 ILR Postal CESC £243 £850 £875 outside PBS PEO Main Dependant ILR Postal CESC £243 £250 £486 Additional Out of n/a n/a £300 Dependant Hours Caseworking1 - ILR PEO Main £243 £1,250 £1,350 PEO Main * ILR PEO £243 £350 £675 Additional Out of n/a n/a £150 Dependant Hours ILR PEO CESC £243 £1,100 £1,215 Caseworking1 - Main PEO Dependant * WS 97 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 98

In UK - Non PBS Unit Costs Current Fees Proposed Fees In UK - PBS New Unit Costs Current Fees Proposed Fees (New products *) April 2011 Oct/Nov 2010 April 2011 products *) April 2011 Oct/Nov 2010 April 2011

EEA Applications n/a n/a £300 Tier 4 - Postal Main £316 £357 £386 at PEO (per Tier 4 - Postal £316 £100 £193 * person) Dependant Tier 4- PEO Main £316 £650 £702 1 Out of hours caseworking fee payable on top of standard PEO fee Tier 4 - PEO £316 £150 £351 CESC = Council of Europe Social Charter reduction Dependant LTR = Leave to Remain Tier 5- Postal Main £235 £130 £190 PEO = Public Enquiry Office Tier 5 - Postal £235 £30 £95 ILR = Indefinite Leave to Remain Dependant Tier 5- Postal CESC £235 £120 £171 Main In UK - PBS New Unit Costs Current Fees Proposed Fees products *) April 2011 Oct/Nov 2010 April 2011 Tier 5 - Postal CESC £235 £30 £95 Dependant Tier 1 - Postal Main £269 £850 £1,000 Tier 5 - PEO Main £240 £600 £648 Tier 1 - Postal £269 £250 £500 Tier 5- PEO £240 £150 £324 Dependant Dependant Tier 1 - Postal CESC £269 £770 £900 Tier 5 - PEO CESC £240 £550 £583 Main Main Tier 1 - Postal CESC £269 £250 £500 Tier 5- PEO CESC £240 £150 £324 Dependant Dependant Tier 1 - PEO Main £253 £1,150 £1,300 PBS Dependants £418 £500 £550 Tier 1 - PEO £253 £300 £650 Applying Separately Dependant - Postal Tier 1 - PEO CESC £253 £1,000 £1,170 PBS Dependants £419 £800 £850 Main Applying Separately - PEO Tier 1 - PEO CESC £253 £300 £650 Dependant Tier 4 - Permission £160 n/a £160 to Change Course1* Tier 1 (Post Study) - £337 £550 Postal Main N.B. CESC = Council of Europe Social Charter reduction Tier 1 - (Post Study) £337 £150 £297 1 Only for migrants that applied to UKBA for permission to study between - Postal Dependant 31 March and 4 October 2009 Tier 1 (Post Study) - £337 £850 PEO Main Unit Costs Current Fees Proposed Fees Tier 1 (Post Study) - £337 £250 PBS Sponsorship April 2011 Nov 2010 April 2011 PEO Dependant Tier 2 Large £1,007 £1,000 £1,025 Tier 1 - Transition n/a £500 £500 Sponsor Licence Postal Main Tier 2 Small £1,007 £300 £310 Tier 1 - Transition n/a £150 £250 Sponsor Licence Postal Dependant Tier 4 Sponsor £1,007 £400 £410 Tier 1 - Transition n/a £700 £700 Licence PEO Main Tier 5 Sponsor £1,007 £400 £410 Tier 1 - Transition n/a £200 £350 Licence PEO Dependant Tier 2, Tier 4 &/or £1,007 £600 £615 Tier 2 - Postal Main £169 £500 £550 Tier 5 Licence Tier 2- Postal £169 £150 £275 (where sponsor Dependant currently holds T4 or T5 licence) Tier 2 - Postal CESC £155 £450 £495 Main Highly Trusted £1,007 £400 £410 Sponsor Licence Tier 2 - Postal CESC £155 £150 £275 Dependant Sponsor Action £1,007 £1,000 £1,000 Plan Tier 2 - PEO Main £169 £800 £850 Tier 2 COS £172 £170 £175 Tier 2 - PEO £169 £200 £425 Dependant Tier 5 COS £15 £10 £10 Tier 2 - PEO CESC £169 £700 £765 Tier 4 CAS £15 £10 £10 Main Tier 2 - PEO CESC £169 £200 £425 Dependant Inland Waterways Tier 2 - Postal Main £169 n/a £350 (ICT <12 months) * Statement Tier 2 - Postal £169 n/a £175 Dependants (ICT <12 months) * Tier 2 - PEO Main £169 n/a £650 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, (ICT <12 months) * Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Tier 2 - PEO £169 n/a £325 (Lord Henley): My honourable friend the Minister for Dependants (ICT Natural Environment and Fisheries (Richard Benyon) <12 months) * Tier 2 - Postal CESC £155 n/a £315 has today made the following Written Ministerial Main (ICT <12 Statement. * months) On 21 June 2010, I made a statement about inland Tier 2 - PEO CESC £169 n/a £585 Main (ICT <12 waterways policy for England and Wales (Col. 4WS). I months) * said that we were considering the appropriate civil WS 99 Written Statements[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Statements WS 100 society model for British Waterways, including the Northern Ireland: Robert Hamill Inquiry possible inclusion of the Environment Agency’s navigations. On 14 October, the Government subsequently Statement announced our intention to move British Waterways in England and Wales from being a public corporation Lord Shutt of Greetland: My right honourable friend to a new waterways charity, subject to parliamentary the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Owen approval. Paterson) has made the following Written Ministerial As a result of work undertaken by the Government, Statement. British Waterways and the Environment Agency over In my Written Statement of 31 January 2011, I the past few months, I am convinced by the compelling informed the House that, following an announcement vision of a national trust for the waterways that includes by the Public Prosecution Service for Northern Ireland the British Waterways and Environment Agency that it planned to prosecute three individuals in connection navigations. However, I wish to take a phased approach with the death of Robert Hamill, I would not publish to the delivery of this vision so that assets and liabilities the report of the Robert Hamill inquiry until these can be transferred sustainably. In phase 1, the liabilities legal proceedings had concluded. Publishing the report and assets of British Waterways in England and Wales while proceedings are ongoing would jeopardise the will transfer into the new charity, alongside an individuals’ right to a fair trial. “endowment”consisting of the property portfolio owned I also set out the checking process which is required by British Waterways in England and Wales. In phase 2, to meet the obligations on me in relation to Article 2 the EA navigations would transfer to the new charity, of the European Convention on Human Rights and in if sufficient funding can be found in the next Spending relation to national security. I can confirm that this Review to enable the charity to take on the liabilities checking process has now been completed and I have associated with them, and subject to the agreement of received advice from the checking team which confirms the charity’s trustees. that there is nothing in the report which, if published, The Government’s proposed approach, which will could breach Article 2 of the European Convention be subject to public consultation as part of the forthcoming on Human Rights by putting the lives or safety of consultation on setting up the new charity, is that the individuals at risk, or put national security at risk. I EA navigations should transfer to the new charity in am therefore satisfied that once legal proceedings have 2015-16 in the next Spending Review period, if it is concluded, the report can be published in full. I have affordable to do so. To maintain momentum, a review advised Sir Edwin Jowitt, the chairman of the inquiry, will be undertaken in 2014 to assess the progress and of this. achievements of the new charity and to consider the I have also asked Sir Edwin to retain formal custody options for the transfer of the EA navigations. of the report in a secure location until the legal proceedings The Government are absolutely committed to delivering have concluded and it can be submitted to me and be our exciting vision for a national trust for the waterways published. The report has not been shown to me or to over the coming years, and consider that over time the any other member of the Government, or to any new waterways charity offers the most sustainable officials except the two members of the team which future for both the BW waterways and EA navigations. carried out the checking process. I have not been briefed on the contents of the report, nor have any officials other than those in the checking team. Ministry of Defence: Votes A Annual Again, I reassure the House that once the legal Estimates proceedings have concluded, I intend to publish the Statement report in full and as soon as practicable. Once a timetable for publication becomes clear, I will update the House accordingly. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence (Liam Fox) Railways: High Speed Rail has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Statement The Ministry of Defence Supplementary Votes A Estimate 2010-11 will be laid before the House on Earl Attlee: My right honourable friend the Secretary 17 February 2011 as HC 777. This outlines the maximum of State for Transport (Philip Hammond) has made numbers of personnel to be maintained for each service the following Written Ministerial Statement. in the Armed Forces during financial year 2010-11. Today, I am launching the consultation on the Government’s proposals for a national high speed rail The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry network. High Speed Rail: Investing in Britain’s Future of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable sets out the Government’s case for this network, the friend the Secretary of State for Defence (Liam Fox) details of the Government’s strategy and the proposed has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. route for an initial phase from London to the West The Ministry of Defence Votes A Estimate 2011-12 Midlands. It will be one of the most extensive national will be laid before the House on 17 February 2011 as consultations ever undertaken. HC 769. This outlines the maximum numbers of personnel I believe that a national high speed rail network to be maintained for each service in the Armed Forces from London to Birmingham, with onward legs to during financial year 2011-12. Leeds and Manchester, could transform Britain’s WS 101 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 102 competitiveness as profoundly as the coming of the more detailed supporting documents, including a detailed railways in the 19th century. It would reshape Britain’s economic case, a full appraisal of sustainability and a economic geography, helping to bridge the north-south route engineering report. divide though massive improvements in journey times My department will be conducting a series of regional and better connections between cities—slashing almost seminars to inform the strategic debate, together with an hour off the trip from London to Manchester. a series of roadshows along the line of the proposed But the proposed High Speed Rail network would London-West Midlands route. These will give people do more; it would address Britain’s future transport the chance to discuss our plans and the specific local capacity challenge, providing a huge uplift in long impacts and mitigation proposals with the engineers distance capacity and relieving pressure on overstretched and other specialists working on the project. conventional lines. It would bring around £44 billion This is a once-in-a-generation infrastructure investment of net monetised benefits and support the creation of that would have a transformational effect on Britain’s thousands of new jobs, as well as delivering unquantifiable economy. Civic leaders of all political persuasions and strategic benefits. And it would help us to build a business leaders from all parts of the United Kingdom sustainable economy, by encouraging millions of people support it. I urge all honourable Members with an out of cars and off planes on to trains. Our competitors interest to encourage their constituents to participate already recognise the huge benefits of high speed rail in the consultation. I will announce the outcome of and are pressing ahead with ambitious plans. Britain this consultation process and the Government’s decisions cannot afford to be left behind. on our strategy for high speed rail before the end of The Government’s support for high speed rail was 2011. set out clearly in our programme for government, published in May last year. Since then, we have built Railways: Local and Regional Services upon the work already done by HS2 Ltd to consider the case for high speed rail in the UK. Last October’s Statement spending review settlement reaffirmed our support and provided over £750 million to fund the development Earl Attlee: My right honourable friend the Minister of our national network proposals over the next four of State for Transport (Theresa Villiers) has made the years. following Written Ministerial Statement. Since then, the Government have received additional Local authorities and integrated transport authorities advice from HS2 Ltd on options for a national high from time to time wish to develop proposals for new speed rail network and on direct links to Heathrow or enhanced rail services where, in their view, they and the High Speed 1 (HS1) line to the Channel offer the best way of meeting the transport needs of Tunnel. their area. They have the necessary powers to secure the provision of such services but they are sometimes The Government understand the concerns of those inhibited by the risk that significant revenue funding living near the proposed route. Following a series of may need to be committed over the long term. I am visits that I made along the proposed London-West keen to encourage local bodies to identify the best Midlands line, we have altered around half the original solutions for identified local needs and therefore wish route, significantly reducing the potential local to ensure that they are not deterred from considering environmental impacts. an improved rail service where it clearly offers value In the Chilterns area of outstanding natural beauty, for money. all but 1.2 miles would be in tunnel, cutting, or close to The Government’s priority remains one of reducing the A413 road corridor. Since HS2 Ltd’s original the budget deficit, and therefore careful consideration report to Government was published in March 2010, has to be given to any proposal which might increase the number of properties where high noise levels would the cost of the railway, in either the short or long term. be expected to be experienced has fallen from 350 to However, we recognise the arguments put forward by around 10. promoters that regional and local rail services need to In December 2010, I set out our proposed high adapt to population, housing and economic growth in speed rail strategy, our preferred route and our approach localities. Therefore, it is only right that, once they to delivering a wider high speed network. However, we have demonstrated value for money after a trial period, recognise that decisions should not be taken on a new or improved services promoted by local authorities major infrastructure project of this scale until all are treated in a similar way to the more established those with an interest have had their say. So this services which are currently funded as part of the consultation, which will run until 29 July, seeks views national network. on: the case for high speed rail; our strategy for a I would therefore like to announce to the House national high speed network; the proposed route for that the Government still intend to fund the provision an initial line from London to the West Midlands; and of new or enhanced services promoted by authorities our options for providing assistance to those who are which have rail industry support but, in view of the detrimentally affected by any new line. Responses can tough financial decisions made as part of the spending be submitted through the HS2 Consultation website, review, no such funding will be provided prior to April or sent to a freepost address. 2015 (the start of the next spending review period). Copies of the consultation document have been It is important that the promoter demonstrates that placed in the Library of the House and are available a rail scheme is the best way to address regional and on the DfT website. I am also publishing a number of local transport issues; hence promoters would still be WS 103 Written Statements[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Statements WS 104 expected to fund a new or enhanced service for the should continue to remain in touch with their existing first three years to demonstrate their commitment to contacts within the RDAs for further information the service and show that it delivers value for money in about the position on individual projects or applications. the light of actual experience. Schemes which the department would consider funding Terrorism: Finance in this way would be subject to a number of conditions, details of which have been deposited in the Library of Statement the House and will be made available on the Department for Transport’s web site. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): My honourable friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mark Hoban) has today made the Rural Development following Written Ministerial Statement. Statement The Government are committed to reporting quarterly on the operation of the UK’s terrorist asset-freezing The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, regime. We believe this is essential to ensure transparency Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and accountability of the regime. The Terrorist Asset- (Lord Henley): My right honourable friend the Minister Freezing etc. Act 2010 has enshrined in law the for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) has today commitment to report quarterly to Parliament on the made the following Written Ministerial Statement. operation of the regime mandated by UN Security I am today announcing a series of changes that I Council Resolution 1373. will be making to the operation and delivery of the This report covers the period October to December socioeconomic elements of the Rural Development 20101. It is the last to cover the operation of the Programme for England 2007-13 (RDPE), which are regime under the Terrorism (United Nations Measures) currently delivered by the Regional Development Agencies. Order 2009, which was repealed on 17 December Future responsibility for delivery of support for when the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act came into farming and forestry competitiveness, diversification force, and it also covers the first two weeks of the of the rural economy and rural quality of life under operation of the new Act. Axis 1 and 3 of the RDPE, and for management of The new Act strengthens civil liberties safeguards the community-led Leader approach, will transfer from and makes the new regime fairer, more proportionate the eight existing RDAs to Defra. This will ensure and more transparent. A copy of the Act can be found continuity and consistency of delivery for customers, on the HM Treasury’s website: www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ and compliance with the relevant European regulations. fin_sanctions_terrorist.htm As responsibility transfers to Defra, I shall be looking The report also covers the operation of the UN to move as quickly as possible towards a more consistent al-Qaeda and Taliban asset-freezing regime. national approach to delivery of the programme, with As of 31 December 2010, a total of just under a clear focus on the Government’s priorities for farming £280,0002 of funds relating to terrorism were frozen in and forestry competitiveness and the needs of rural the UK. This covers funds frozen under the UK’s areas, managed nationally and delivered in a way domestic terrorist asset-freezing regime, mandated by which provides locally accessible support. So I have UN Security Council Resolution 1373, and also funds decided that we should aim to locate the RDPE teams frozen under the UN al-Qaeda and Taliban asset in their existing towns or cities initially where that is freezing regime, mandated by UN Security Council cost-effective. In order to ensure as smooth a transition Resolution 1267. as possible, I will be introducing changes to the (1) UK’s domestic terrorist asset-freezing regime administration of the programme on a staggered basis from 1 July. These will deliver a more consistent national As of 31 December 2010, a total of 91 accounts approach and efficiency savings for the taxpayer, including containing just under £140,000 were frozen in the UK moving away from existing regions as the key governance under the domestic terrorist asset freezing regime tier. mandated by UNSCR 1373. We will engage further with stakeholders and customers Operation of the Terrorism (United Nations Measures) about changes to the programme, building on the Order 2009 (prior to 17 December 2010) existing programme governance at the regional and Asset-freezing designations national levels. In the quarter October to December 2010, the I have now informed RDAs of their indicative Treasury gave no new directions under the 2009 order. budget allocations for 2011-12. I am pleased that, Reviews under the 2009 Order following the Spending Review, we are able to continue The Treasury keeps domestic asset-freezing cases to deliver funding under Axis 1 and 3 and Leader over under review and completed 38 reviews in this quarter. the remainder of the programme period. But budgets As a result of these 38 reviews, six persons had their are constrained and I have asked RDAs to ensure that designations revoked. the funding available is focused on delivering against our key priorities for competitiveness and rural areas, Licensing whilst also beginning the process of putting in place Maintaining an effective licensing system is important the new nationally consistent approach to delivery in to ensure the overall proportionality and fairness of 2011-12. RDAs will inform applicants and local action the asset-freezing regime, whether the individuals groups of the position within their region. Customers concerned are subject to an asset freeze in accordance WS 105 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 106 with a UN or EU listing, or domestic terrorism legislation. 1 The detail that can be provided to the House on a quarterly A licensing framework is put in place for each person basis is subject to the need to avoid the identification, directly or on a case-by-case basis. The key objective of the indirectly, of personal or operationally sensitive information. licensing system is to strike an appropriate balance 2 This figure reflects the most updated account balances available between minimising the risk of diversion of funds to and includes approximately $64,000 of suspected terrorist funds frozen in the UK. This has been converted using exchange rates terrorism and meeting the human rights of affected as of 12 January 2011. persons and their families. Licences contain appropriate 3 Includes approximately $64,000 of suspected terrorist funds in controls to protect against the risk of the diversion of the UK. funds for terrorist finance. Four licences were issued this quarter in relation to four persons subject to an asset freeze under the 2009 Turks and Caicos Islands order. Statement In addition to issuing licences relating to a specific person, the Treasury may also issue general licences, which apply to all persons designated under a particular Baroness Verma: My right honourable friend the regime or regimes. Licences are granted where there is Minister of State for International Development (Mr Alan a legitimate need for such transactions to proceed and Duncan) has made the following Written Ministerial where they can proceed without giving rise to any risk Statement. of terrorist finance. Further to the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of One general licence was issued this quarter to allow State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs’ (Henry third parties to pay a designated person’s legal expenses Bellingham MP) Written Statement of 9 December under both the Act and the al-Qaeda and Taliban and the Department for International Development’s asset-freezing regime. Minute of 3 February notifying Parliament that the No licences were varied or revoked this quarter. Secretary of State for International Development had approved in principle a loan guarantee to the Turks Legal Challenges and Caicos Islands Government (TCIG), I would like Two legal challenges against designations made to update the House. under the 2009 Order were ongoing in the last quarter. The Department for International Development Operation of the Terrorist Asset Freezing etc Act 2010 (DFID) has now finalised a guarantee in favour of (after 17 December 2010) Scotiabank (Turks and Caicos) Ltd to provide TCIG The Act contains a transitional provision that ensures with access to a maximum capital amount of US$260 that all designations and licences made under the 2009 million over the next five years. I confirm that TCIG order remain valid as final designations under the Act will immediately repay DfID its loan of £29.9 million until 17 March 2011. All UK asset freezes are therefore plus interest. currently under review to consider whether they should This level of commercial borrowing is vital if TCIG be renewed under the new Act. The review process will is to turn around its dire financial situation. It will be completed by 17 March 2011. provide the time TCIG needs to implement budget No new designations or licences were made under measures which will lead to achieving a fiscal surplus the powers of the Act between 17 December and the in the financial year ending March 2013. As PUSS end of the quarter. Bellingham and I reported to Parliament on 9 December The Independent Reviewer 2010, this is one of a number of key milestones to be reached before a date for elections can be set. Once the Under the Act the Treasury is required to appoint territory is in fiscal surplus it will be able to start to an independent reviewer to review the operation of pay off its debt and should, after the five year period is the domestic terrorist asset-freezing regime. The over, if not before, be able to secure new and reduced independent reviewer will report on the first nine bank lending without the need for a UK Government months of the regime and every 12 months thereafter. guarantee. The Treasury has decided to appoint David Anderson The guarantee is intended to cost the UK taxpayer QC to the role of Independent Reviewer. He has nothing. It will ensure that TCI does not fall victim to recently been appointed by the Home Office as the financial ruin and it is in line with DfID’s responsibility independent reviewer of counter-terrorism legislation. to underpin the reasonable needs of all British Overseas (2) UN al-Qaeda and Taliban Asset Freezing Regime Territories. The UN al-Qaeda and Taliban asset-freezing regime The current Chief Financial Officer has done an is implemented in the UK through EC Regulation excellent job in getting a grip on TCIG’s public finances. 881/2002. Enforcement measures are provided for in To ensure that the financial plan stays on track to the UK’s Al-Qaeda and Taliban (Asset-Freezing) achieve a fiscal surplus, DfID reserves the right to Regulations 2010. require TCIG to retain the position of Chief Financial As of 31 December 2010, a total of 112 accounts Officer for as long as the guarantee is in force and to containing just under £140,0003 were frozen in the UK nominate the holder of this post who shall then be under the al-Qaeda and Taliban asset-freezing regime. appointed by the Governor. WA 203 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 204

Earl Attlee: The South East Airports Taskforce, Written Answers chaired by the Minister of State, is looking at ways of enhancing the passenger experience to, from and within Monday 28 February 2011 the airport at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted with a view to sharing identified good practice more widely. The Government continue to work within the Africa: Landmines International Civil Aviation Organisation and the Question European Civil Aviation Conference, and with industry groups such as the International Air Transport Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Association, to improve the passenger experience. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to help clear all landmines laid during Airports: Birmingham World War II in north Africa. [HL6973] Question The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The UK has assisted with landmine clearance in North Africa in the past To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support and continues to provide technical information to the they will give for the proposed expansion of mine affected countries. Birmingham Airport. [HL6535] The Government have overhauled their support for mine clearance programmes in order to focus on high- Earl Attlee: We recognise the vital contribution that impact zones in a more responsive and flexible way. regional airports make to local economies. It is our We have prioritised according to identified relative intention to develop an aviation policy framework need and targeted those low-income countries that are that seeks to create the right conditions for regional worst affected by landmines, considering factors such airports to flourish. Plans for the expansion of as: the number of lives that are likely to be saved; the Birmingham Airport are a matter for the airport operator. number of mines in the area; the benefit to a community This Government have not therefore made any socially and economically; and the targeting of funding assessment of the potential benefits of proposed expansion towards countries unable to fund mine clearance of Birmingham Airport on the West Midlands economy. programmes of their own or which do not receive significant support from elsewhere in the international community. Anti-Semitism Question Agriculture: Livestock Standards Asked by Lord Ouseley Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what advice is Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark given to universities about policy and practice to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their tackle anti-Semitism and hate speech on higher assessment of the case for seeking changes to World education campuses. [HL6700] Trade Organisation policies to protect British farmers from competition from countries that have lower The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department welfare standards for livestock. [HL6735] for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): There is guidance to higher education institutions on Lord De Mauley: The Government view animal Promoting Good Campus Relations, Fostering Shared welfare as a matter of high priority. As well as promoting Valuesand Preventing Violent Extremism in Universities high animal welfare standards in this country, we are and Higher Education Colleges, developed by the former keen to encourage high animal welfare standards Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills. internationally in both other European Union countries This includes detailed guidance to help institutions and third countries. World Trade Organisation rules address issues concerning violent extremism, applicable currently make no specific provision for justifying to whatever form this might take on campus. It also restrictive trade measures aimed at protecting animal includes guidance on issues that might arise in terms of welfare. However, we are working with other countries external speakers on campus. Institutions also take within the World Organisation for Animal Health advice about external speakers from their local police (OIE) to develop and progress internationally recognised forces when needed. The guidance is available online: standards for animal welfare. www.dius.gov.u1c/publications/extremismhe.pdf. The department is active in the wider government Airports review of the Prevent strategy and we expect outcomes Question from this will provide a steer to higher education institutions on further approaches to tackling extremism Asked by Lord Birt and supporting integration. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans The sector has also produced guidance which offers they have for working with the relevant national institutions practical strategies to deal with instances and international organisations to improve the of hate crimes and intolerance on campus, including experience of air travellers from check-in to exit anti-Semitism (available at www.ecu.ac.uk/publications/ from the destination airport. [HL6288] promoting-good-campus-relations-update). WA 205 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 206

Later this year further guidance will also be developed Asked by Lord Ashcroft from the Equality Challenge Unit’s major religion and belief project, Universities UK’s Academic Freedom To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Working Group and the National Union of Students they are taking to promote the Armed Forces home (NUS) on freedom of speech in HE. The NUS guidance ownership scheme to ex-service personnel. [HL6799] will be aimed particularly at supporting students’ unions. Lord Astor of Hever: The Armed Forces home Armed Forces: Accommodation ownership scheme pilot is designed for full-time, permanent members of the Armed Forces, with between Questions four and six years’ service, who intend to remain in the Asked by Lord Ashcroft Armed Forces and buy a property in England. Former service personnel are not eligible to apply To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps to join the Armed Forces home ownership scheme have been taken since the National Audit Office pilot but retain their key worker status for the first report Service Families Accommodation of March 12 months after leaving the Armed Forces, allowing 2009 to raise the standard of service accommodation. them priority access to other government affordable [HL6747] housing initiatives. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to raise the standard of service families’ accommodation. [HL6748] Armed Forces: Aircraft To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures Question are in place to upgrade and improve existing service families’ accommodation. [HL6749] Asked by Lord Moonie To ask Her Majesty’s Government what budget To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions has been allocated to upgrade service families’ they have had with BAE Systems about the capabilities accommodation in 2010-11; and what budget has of a navalised version of the Eurofighter Typhoon been allocated for subsequent years. [HL6750] which it is offering to India; and whether such To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the capabilities could meet the requirements for a United criteria upon which funds will be allocated for the Kingdom carrier-borne aircraft. [HL7118] upgrade and improvement of service families’ accommodation. [HL6751] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): We have periodically The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry reviewed with BAE Systems our present and future of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The 2009 National Typhoon capability requirements from a technological, Audit Office report on service family accommodation industrial and commercial perspective and will continue (SFA), published in May 2009, covered the situation to do so throughout the life of the aircraft. before this Government took office. Since May 2010 A navalised Typhoon was considered as part of the this Government have consistently sought to ensure assessment of Joint Combat Aircraft options in 2000-01, that service personnel and their families are housed in but was rejected on grounds of cost, capability and good-quality modern accommodation. technical challenge. This decision has been reviewed The 2010-11 upgrade programme typically provides regularly since, informed through discussions with a new kitchen, bathroom, heating system and often a BAE Systems. new roof and windows and will bring at least 800 SFA Our future combat air requirement is therefore properties up to the highest standard for condition. In predicated on the complementary capability provided addition, around 4,000 properties will benefit from by a balanced Typhoon/Joint Strike Fighter force. The smaller-scale improvements such as new boilers, 2010 strategic defence and security review has confirmed bathrooms, kitchens, loft insulation and double glazing, that the capabilities offered by the Joint Strike Fighter which may not amount to a full upgrade but will is the most appropriate and cost-effective solution to deliver real lifestyle benefits to occupants. meet the UK’s carrier strike component of this capability. Some £60 million has been allocated in the financial year 2010-11 for the upgrade and improvement programmes in England and Wales. Allocations for future years have yet to be agreed, but the Government Armed Forces: Royal Marines will endeavour to improve as many properties as possible Question from the agreed allocation, together with possible funding from efficiencies found elsewhere within the Asked by Lord Burnett Ministry of Defence. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much Over 95 per cent of SFA in the UK are now at the they have spent on recruiting for the Royal Marines top two (of four) standards for condition. in each of the last five years; how much they The current upgrade and improvement programmes propose to spend on recruitment in each of the next in the UK prioritise investment on a greatest needs five years; and what are the reasons for any change first basis. in future funding. [HL7102] WA 207 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 208

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Asked by Baroness Sherlock of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The costs of recruiting to the Royal Navy and Royal Marines are not held To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many separately by the Department. Costs are held as a people serving in the regular Armed Forces who total recruiting activity for both elements of the Naval enlisted before they reached the age of 18 have been Service. The total Naval Service recruitment spend for permitted to leave before reaching the end of the the last four years is provided in the table below. normal minimum period of service. [HL6817]

Financial Year (£ million)

2007-08 34.80 Lord Astor of Hever: During the financial year 2008-09 36.39 2009-10, 720 service personnel under the age of 18 2009-10 36.86 elected to leave the services before the minimum period 2010-11 32.36 of service. This does not include those who were discharged on medical or disciplinary grounds. Notes: 1. Figures can only be provided from 2007-08 due to Asked by Baroness Sherlock difficulties in recalling data from historic records. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many 2. Costs include elements such as pay, National Insurance and superannuation contributions for Service and Civilian staff; people serving in the regular armed forces who travel and subsistence; external training; advertising and enlisted before they reached the age of 18 have been marketing. refused permission to leave before reaching the end 3. The figure for Financial Year 2010/11 represents estimated of their normal minimum period of service. spend, the total outturn could be higher or lower. [HL6919]

Future plans have not yet been finalised and will Lord Astor of Hever: This information is not held take account of the Government’s decisions in the centrally and could be provided only by conducting a Strategic Defence and Security Review and our assessment search of manual records on many sites. of the requirement as result of the reductions in the size of the Naval Service, including the Royal Marines. Recruits who are under 18 years of age at the time of enlistment and who wish to end their service have a right to leave by giving at least 14 days’ notice to their commanding officer. Such notice can take effect when Armed Forces: Under-18s the recruit has completed 28 days’ service and is within six months of enlistment. Additionally, recruits who Questions before their 18th birthday have made their unhappiness Asked by Baroness Sherlock with military life known to the commanding officer can request permission to leave up to three months To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many after they reach age 18. In such cases the policy is to people under 18 are serving in the regular armed treat them with great sympathy but this does not give a forces. [HL6815] right to discharge. This process is managed within a unit and the individual service manning authorities. Units are not The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry required to collect statistical data of those under 18 years of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): As at 1 April 2010, who have applied to leave and are refused. there were some 3,500 trained and untrained personnel in the Armed Forces who were under the age of 18. The Defence Analytical Services and Advice organisation publishes these data annually in its Tri Service Report 8, Asylum Seekers: Funding Age Distribution of UK Regular Forces, which is available at the following address: www.dasa.mod.uk/ Question applications/newWeb/www/index.php?page= Asked by Lord Avebury 67andpubType=1andthiscontent=80anddate=2010- 06-10. A copy is available in the Library of the House. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Asked by Baroness Sherlock will place in the Library of the House copies of all notifications to agencies providing services to refugees To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many and asylum seekers of cuts in the grants they receive people under 18 serving in the regular Armed Forces from the Home Office or the UK Border Agency. were “looked-after” children (a) when they enlisted, [HL6920] and (b) at any time before they enlisted. [HL6816]

Lord De Mauley: The UK Border Agency will Lord Astor of Hever: This information is not held arrange for copies of letters to agencies providing centrally and could only be obtained by conducting a services to refugees and asylum seekers, notifying them search of manual records on many sites thus incurring of levels of asylum support grant funding for 2011-12, a disproportionate cost. to be placed in the Library of the House. WA 209 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 210

Aviation: Passenger Duty Summer Parliamentary Recess. Any profit or loss on the APF will only crystallise once the fund is wound Questions up. Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham To ask Her Majesty’s Government what would Banking be the cost of abolishing air passenger duty for Question visitors to each of the British overseas territories. [HL7046] Asked by Lord Myners To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government what actions will suspend air passenger duty for visitors to the they are taking to promote London as a centre for Turks and Caicos Islands while the territory remains issuing and investing in bank contingent convertible under direct rule. [HL7047] capital notes. [HL7097]

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) does Sassoon): The Government are committed to maintaining not collect information on the contribution to air London’s position as a leading financial centre and as passenger duty (APD) revenues made from flights to a location for global financial services companies and specific countries or territories. For each destination to supporting the competitiveness of the financial band under APD, the numbers of chargeable passengers services firms based in the UK. They recognise that and the revenue declared are published on a monthly success in these areas is important for the banks’ basis on HMRC’s UK Trade Info website: future contribution to the UK economy. www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=bulletins. International policy development on mechanisms The Government have no plans to suspend air to increase the loss absorbency of systemically important passenger duty to any country or territory. financial institutions is ongoing. The UK Government are engaging actively in the international debate and will continue to closely consult the industry through Bank of England this process. The G20 has commissioned the Financial Stability Board to develop proposals to address the Questions risks caused by systemically important financial Asked by Lord Myners institutions before the end of 2011. In January 2011, the Basel Committee released To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they proposals to ensure that all tier 1 and tier 2 capital is will consider commissioning an independent report subject to conversion or write-down at the point of into the Bank of England’s approach to and accuracy non-viability. The UK supports the ongoing work of in inflation forecasting. [HL6915] the Basel Committee. Alongside this, the Independent Commission on The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Banking is developing recommendations with a view Sassoon): The framework of the Monetary Policy to reducing systemic risk in the UK banking sector Committee (MPC) of the Bank of England promotes and is due to report in September 2011. transparency and accountability in its decision-making process, including through publications such as the Banking: Bonuses Bank’s quarterly inflation reports and the MPC’s monthly meeting minutes. The MPC also has to explain its Questions actions regularly to the Treasury Select Committee. Asked by Lord Myners The Bank of England’s May 2010 inflation report contains an assessment of the Bank’s forecasting record. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will assess the success of their proposals for reduced Asked by Lord Myners bank bonuses from levels that would otherwise have been paid in the absence of the latter figure. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their [HL5934] estimate of the loss of value of the Bank of England’s Asset Purchase Fund over the six months to the end The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord of January 2011. [HL6918] Sassoon): As a result of the Government’s discussions, the largest UK banks have made a commitment that Lord Sassoon: The Bank of England will publish the total remuneration paid in respect of the 2010 accounts for the Asset Purchase Facility (APF) for the financial year will be lower than it was for 2009, and year ending February 2011 before the Summer lower than it would have been otherwise. The remuneration Parliamentary Recess. The amount due to or from committee chair of each bank will write to the Financial HM Treasury under its indemnity to the Bank will be Services Authority (FSA) to confirm that the bank’s identified. The Treasury will include the implications commitment has been met. of the APF for Treasury resources, that is, the profit or Alongside this, the Government have taken robust loss of the APF based on valuations of APF assets at action to tackle unacceptable bonuses including through balance sheet date in its annual accounts for the year the revised Financial Services Authority remuneration ending 31 March 2011 to be published before the code, the new FSA remuneration disclosure rules, the WA 211 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 212 bank levy, higher capital and liquidity requirements, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, stronger resolution arrangements, the Independent Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Commission on Banking and continued investigation Wilcox): This Government have not carried out an of the costs and benefits of a financial activities tax. assessment of whether to adopt the rescue procedure Asked by Lord Myners set out in Chapter 11 of the US Bankruptcy Code. We have however received views on the effectiveness of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the our rescue procedures in the context of a consultation Bank of England has been consulted by HM Treasury issued by the previous Government on a possible about the negotiations with the banks over Project moratorium for companies that are in difficulty. We Merlin. [HL6660] will shortly be setting out our response to stakeholder comments. Lord Sassoon: Treasury Ministers and officials have meetings with a wide variety of organisations in the public and private sectors as part of the process of Banks: Green Investment Bank policy development and delivery. It is not the Government’s practice to provide details of all such Question meetings. Asked by Baroness Kramer Asked by Lord Myners To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in will appoint the governing board of the Green the light of Project Merlin, they intend to set volume Investment Bank; and how. [HL6895] production targets for other commercial sectors of the economy. [HL6916] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): I for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): I will write to my noble friend and a copy of my letter will write to the noble Lord and a copy of my letter will will be placed in the Library of the House. be placed in the Library of the House. Banks: Lending Banking: Iceland Questions Question Asked by Lord Beecham Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they the Written Answer by Lord Sassoon on 15 December will introduce measures to cap excessive interest 2010 (WA182-3), what is the total amount unclaimed charged on unsecured loans, including “payday by depositors with balances above £50,000 in the loans”. [HL6964] three failed Icelandic banks; and whether they will investigate the source of the deposited money and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, confirm its legality before repaying depositors. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness [HL6591] Wilcox): Well informed, empowered consumers are central to the Government’s vision for how a credit The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord market between customers and lenders should work. Sassoon): Compensation payments, including those We want to encourage responsible lending and borrowing for deposits over £50,000, are administered by the decisions and to strengthen protection where necessary, Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS). particularly for the most vulnerable. BIS and HM According to the FSCS, as at 4 January 2011 the total Treasury are currently reviewing the consumer credit amount unclaimed by depositors with balances over and personal insolvency regime. This is a thorough £50,000 in Landsbanki, Heritable Bank plc and Kaupthing review of consumer credit and personal insolvency, Singer and Friedlander was £0.42 billion. looking at all the measures that could be taken to The bank in default uses its own processes and support people in difficulty and help them resolve procedures to identify any legality issues as to the their debts, including the impact of any interest rate source of the deposit funds. The FSCS has confirmed cap on payday lending. A call for evidence made in that in addition to this they will also carry out certain connection with the review has recently closed and we checks to verify the position. are currently considering the substantial number of responses received. The Government will make an announcement on next steps in the spring. Bankruptcy Asked by Lord Myners Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Asked by Lord Harrison assessment of the effect of the Basel Committee’s To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment proposals for a net stable funding requirement and they have made of whether to adopt the rescue a liquidity coverage ratio on lending to small and procedure set out in Chapter 11 of the United medium-sized businesses in the United Kingdom. States Bankruptcy Code. [HL6926] [HL7096] WA 213 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 214

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord the commitments to make available new lending Sassoon): The Government welcome the progress made will be a part of the performance metrics of each in Basel towards a final package of new international bank’s chief executive and those of the senior regulatory standards, including the introduction, for managers responsible for business lending; and the first time, of international minimum liquidity performance against these commitments will be requirements. Analysis by the Basel Committee and collected and published on a quarterly basis by the the International Monetary Fund highlights the Bank of England. considerable benefits of these reforms for financial stability. This analysis also suggests that meeting the liquidity standards will be achievable for UK banks Barnett Formula and that the impact on lending, both in the long run and during the transition, will be moderate. Question The Basel standards are yet to be fully finalised and Asked by Lord Laird the committee has stated that it will continue to monitor the proposed liquidity coverage ratio and net stable To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the funding ratio during the transition phase to ensure populations of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland that there are no unintended consequences; this also and Wales used to calculate amounts under the provides further opportunity to assess the impact on Barnett formula; how often the figures are updated; the wider economy. If necessary, revisions will then be and what source is used for compiling the population made to the standards before they are introduced in numbers. [HL6667] 2015 and 2018 respectively. Asked by Lord Myners The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): The figures used to calculate the population To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to proportions which form part of the Barnett formula the Answer by Lord Sassoon on 1 February (Official are derived from the mid-year estimates of population Report, col. 1303), whether the statement that they published by the Office for National Statistics. The intend to ensure that banks “lend, materially and latest population proportions are shown in paragraph 4.7 verifiably, more than they were planning to the of the Treasury publication Funding the Scottish businesses of Britain” is based on knowledge of Parliament, National Assembly for Wales and Northern how much banks were intending to lend. [HL6601] Ireland Assembly: Statement of Funding Policy (SFP). To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they These population proportions were taken from the define a banking relationship moved from one United 2009 mid-year estimates of population which are: Kingdom bank to another United Kingdom bank as a new loan. [HL6602] England 51,809,700 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether Scotland 5,194,000 discussions under Project Merlin have focused on Wales 2,999,300 setting bank lending targets for all business customers Northern Ireland 1,788,900 or just those in the United Kingdom; and whether there are any European Union restrictions on requiring The population proportions are updated on a regular banks to agree to lending targets limited to United basis and the data used in spending reviews are published Kingdom businesses. [HL6603] in the SFP. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the extent to which United Kingdom banks are lending to creditworthy borrowers; Biotechnology and Biological Sciences and what action they are taking to address the level Research Council of lending. [HL6661] Questions Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Lord Sassoon: On 9 February, the Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much welcomed the commitment by Barclays, HSBC, Lloyds they gave to the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Banking Group, RBS and Santander on lending Research Council in each of the last three years; expectations and capacity. The Chancellor announced and what conditions they attached to the funding. to the House that: [HL6983] the banks will lend £190 billion of new credit to businesses in 2011, up from £179 billion in 2010. If The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, demand exceeds this, the banks will lend more; Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness £76 billion of this lending will be to small and Wilcox): My department’s allocation to the Biotechnology medium-sized enterprises (SMEs). This is a 15 per and Biological Sciences Research Council (BBSRC) in cent increase on 2010 (£66 billion); each of the past three years is set out in the following as outlined in the Chancellor’s Statement to the table: House, new lending will include overdrafts, asset finance and loan facilities that are made available FY 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 to businesses during 2011. This includes refinancing £ 000 427,000 452,563 471,057 of existing facilities; WA 215 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 216

The BBSRC utilises its funding in accordance with Bribery Act 2010 its delivery plan (see www.bbsrc.ac.uk/publications/ planning/bbsrc-delivery-plan.aspx). BBSRC operates Question within this strategic framework but takes its own Asked by Lord Moonie decisions on research priorities and projects in accordance with the Haldane principle. Toask Her Majesty’s Government whether members of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces and staff at the Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Ministry of Defence, Foreign and Commonwealth To ask Her Majesty’s Government who the Office and Department for International Development chairman of the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences are subject to the Bribery Act 2010; and, if so, Research Council is; what relevant specialist whether they are covered by the offence of failing qualifications he or she holds; and what his or her to prevent a bribe being paid on their behalf. career has been to date. [HL6984] [HL6752] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): Section 16 of the Bribery Act 2010 applies the Act to individuals in the Baroness Wilcox: The chairman of the Biotechnology public service of the Crown, which means that members and Biological Sciences Research Council (BBSRC) is of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces and staff at the Ministry Professor Sir Tom Blundell FRS, who took up his of Defence and other government departments will be appointment on 1 July 2009. A full account of his liable to prosecution if their conduct in the discharge qualifications and career details to date are published of their duties constitutes an offence under the Act. on the BBSRC website at www.bbsrc.ac.uk/ under the Section 7 of the Act creates an offence of failing to section: Professor Sir Tom Blundell FRS—Chair [Chair’s prevent bribery. This offence can only be committed biography—www.bbsrc.ac.uk/organisation/structures by a relevant commercial organisation. The Ministry /council/chair.aspx]. of Defence, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for International Development Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool do not fall within the definition of “relevant commercial To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the organisation” set out in Section 7. chairman of the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council was selected; by whom; what Climate Change process was followed in his or her selection; where the post was advertised; how many persons applied Question for the position; how many were short-listed for Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch interview; how many candidates were appraised; To ask Her Majesty’s Government what were the what criteria were adopted for the appointment; terms of reference of the Stern Review on the and whether candidates’ views on (a) adoption, economics of climate change; and what it cost to (b) reproductive rights and reproductive health, produce. [HL6881] (c) embryo experimentation and (d) stem cell research were sought. [HL7012] The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): The terms of reference of the Stern review are available online at: webarchive.nationalarchives. gov.uk/20100407010852/www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ sternreview_backgroundtoreview.htm. Baroness Wilcox: The position of chairman of the The cost to the Government of the Stern Review on Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council the Economics of Climate Change was £1,272,000 was advertised in the Sunday Times on 2 November including staff costs, accommodation, travel, research 2008 and the successful candidate took up the post and the publication of the final report. This figure from 1 July 2009. The process was conducted in does not include the costs of any analysis and research accordance with the requirements of the Code of the carried out by other government departments to support Commissioner of Public Appointments and after the review, nor does it include the cost of any follow-up consideration of a report of the Innovation, Universities, work, as these figures are not centrally held. Science and Skills Select Committee, which held a pre-appointment hearing on 13 May 2009. Under the terms of the council’s royal charter, the selection was Criminal Justice: Compensation made by the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. Questions Ten applications were received with three candidates Asked by Lord Laird invited to interview. Candidates were appraised against To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the criteria in the role and person specification published the Written Answer by Lord McNally on 27 January at the time to assess their suitability for the role. (WA 186), whether the remit and funding agreement Candidates’ views on adoption, reproductive rights for the Miscarriages of Justice Support Service and reproductive health, embryo experimentation and allows it to provide assistance to people found not stem cell research were not sought as part of the guilty at trial or whose convictions were quashed selection process. on first appeal. [HL6960] WA 217 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 218

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to The list also shows the local authority area in which the Written Answer by Lord McNally on 27 January each school is situated and the phase of the school. (WA 186), how many people who were found not The total number of pupils in the schools with an guilty at trial have been assisted by the Miscarriages academy order issued, including schools in federations, of Justice Support Service or the Miscarriages of is 330,134, according to the Census of January 2010. Justice project since inception of the schemes. Centrally held information about government capital [HL6961] funding for individual maintained schools covers only To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the capital devolved to them (devolved formula capital) the Written Answer by Lord McNally on 27 January and capital spent within building schools for the future (WA 186), how many people whose convictions schemes. There is significant funding managed at local were quashed on their first appeal have been assisted level for which school-level data are not held centrally. by the Miscarriages of Justice Support Service or Up to the end of March 2011, that locally managed the Miscarriages of Justice project since inception funding will continue to apply to schools approved for of the schemes. [HL6962] conversion. Capital funding for 2011-12 capital allocations to local authorities for their schools were announced The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord on 13 December 2010, with an assurance that academies McNally): The remit and funding agreement for the would be given equivalent allocations for devolved Miscarriages of Justice Support Service does not cover and maintenance funding. Specifically, devolved formula the provision of assistance to those found not guilty at capital will go to them on exactly the same basis as to trial or at first appeal. The only exception is where a maintained schools. No decisions have been taken retrial is ordered following the quashing of a conviction about any capital programmes from April 2012. by the Court of Appeal. In the lifetime of the project, the Miscarriages of Justice Support Service has supported nine cases that have had a re-trial following the quashing of a conviction. Embryology The Miscarriages of Justice Support Service assists those whose convictions were quashed on first appeal Questions only if this was following leave granted (by the Court Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool of Appeal) to conduct an out-of-time appeal. Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answers by Earl Howe on 24 January To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to (WA 96–7) and 7 February (WA 13–14), whether the Written Answer by Lord McNally on 27 January the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (WA 186), whether the Lord Chancellor can issue a has advised them of whether no information was practice direction to judges to state a presumption communicated to Authority members prior to of innocence in writing to anyone acquitted at trial 16 March 2005 in which the autoimmune nature of and to people whose appeal has resulted in a conviction type 1 diabetes was highlighted or queried in relation being quashed. [HL6963] to licensing the use of cells from diabetics for Lord McNally: Further to my reply dated 27 January human embryo cloning; why they answered the 2011 (Official Report, col. WA 186), practice directions question by reference to licence committee practice; in the Criminal Courts are a matter for the Lord Chief and how any substantive answer would affect the Justice. The Lord Chancellor cannot issue practice statutory delegation of the Authority’s functions. directions. [HL6945] Education The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Question Department of Health (Earl Howe): The Human Asked by Lord Greaves Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) did not advise the department whether or not information To ask Her Majesty’s Government which proposals was communicated to authority members prior to for the conversion of schools to academies have 16 March 2005 in which the autoimmune nature of been approved; in which local education authority type 1 diabetes was highlighted or queried in relation each is located; in each case, what will be the to licensing the use of cells from diabetics for human government funding for capital schemes; how many embryo cloning. The HFEA is an independent statutory pupils will be provided for; and in what age groups. body and the manner in which it discharges its statutory [HL6202] duties is a matter for the authority itself to determine. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for The matters raised in this question were considered Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): All schools that have by a HFEA licence committee at a meeting held formally applied for academy status can be seen in the almost six years ago. The HFEA has advised that a published list on our website: www.education.gov.uk/ record of this meeting is set out in the relevant minutes. schools/leadership/typesofschools/academies/ The HFEA has also advised that it cannot comment a0069811/schools-submitting-applications-and- on what information may have come to the attention academies-which-have-opened-in-201011. Those which of the members in any period of time prior to the date are listed as having an academy order have had their of the meeting, beyond the information referred to or proposal to become an academy approved in principle. contained in records held by the authority. WA 219 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 220

The HFEA has further advised that it has not and Embryology Authority members on the issues suggested that the provision of information would in the current consultation on egg and sperm affect the statutory delegation of the authority’s functions. donation. [HL6981] Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 7 February To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to (WA 10), what is the response of the Human the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 7 February Fertilisation and Embryology Authority to the (WA13–14), what was the procedure for reconsidering comments by Professor Eric Blyth, Dr Marilyn licence committee decisions prescribed in regulations Crawshaw, Dr Lucy Frith, Dr Caroline Jones prior to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology and Dr Nina Martin on the current consultation (Appeals) Regulations 2009 (SI 2009/1891); how on egg and sperm donation in BioNews 593 on many appeals have been made; by whom; and what 31 January. [HL6982] were the outcomes of those appeals. [HL6946] Earl Howe: The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Earl Howe: Prior to the coming into force of the Authority (HFEA) has advised that the responses to relevant provisions introduced by the Human Fertilisation the consultation Donating eggs for research: safeguarding and Embryology Act 2008 (2008 Act), the procedure donors were taken into account in formulating its for reconsidering Human Fertilisation and Embryology policy and guidance on the matters discussed in the Authority (HFEA) licence committee decisions was document. The HFEA’s deliberations are recorded in set out in Section 20 of the Human Fertilisation and minutes of the relevant meetings, which are published Embryology Act 1990 (1990 Act) and in The Human on its website at: www.hfea.gov.uk. Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (Licence The HFEA has advised that the process and timing Committees and Appeals) Regulations 1991 (SI 1991/ of its current review of sperm and egg donation have 1889). been discussed in successive authority meetings, minutes The HFEA has advised that in the last five years of which are available on its website. Decisions with one appeal was made under Section 20(1) of the 1990 regard to the policy and guidance relating to sperm Act, as in force prior to amendments made by the 2008 and egg donation are expected to be taken by the Act, by the person responsible for centres 0157 and authority at an open meeting in July. Papers and 0206. The HFEA has also advised that in the course of minutes relating to this meeting will be published on parallel legal proceedings it set aside the appealed the HFEA website. The HFEA has also advised that, decision and the appeal consequently fell away without following well-established practice, all responses will being determined by the authority. be summarised and reported to the authority for The HFEA has further advised that there have been consideration. Policy decisions rest with the authority a small number of other occasions on which individuals as a whole rather than with individual members. have given notice of their intention to appeal a licence The HFEA has advised that it does not recognise a committee decision but, in each of these cases, the basis for the comments on its consultation in the appellant subsequently decided not to pursue the appeal BioNews article, which reflect the opinions of the authors. and no hearing took place. However, the HFEA has also advised that the way it Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool has gone about framing the consultation has been thorough and transparent. The HFEA considers there To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to is no basis to the claim that decisions have already the Written Answers by Baroness Thornton on been made and is confident that the consultation 15 March 2010 (WA 123) and Earl Howe on materials provide those wishing to respond with an 7 February 2011 (WA 10), what impact consultation even-handed and informative overview of the issues responses had on the Human Fertilisation and on which their views are sought. Embryology Authority’s policy following the public The HFEA is an independent statutory body, and consultation on “Donating eggs for research: the manner in which it discharges its statutory duties safeguarding donors”, bearing in mind comments and any consultations it undertakes to assist it in by Dr Stephen Minger in the media on 21 December conducting its statutory functions are matters for the 2006 and Dr Alexandra Plows and others in the authority itself to determine. document entitled Should scientific researchers be allowed to ask women to provide their eggs for disease Energy: Fuel Poverty research?—A statement of concerns in response to the current HFEA consultation. [HL6979] Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Asked by Lord Laird the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 7 February To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to (WA 10), how the consultation on egg and sperm the Written Answer by Lord Marland on 3 February donation by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology (WA 282–3), how the definition of fuel poverty Authority (HFEA) will take into account the views used in the United Kingdom Fuel Poverty Strategy expressed by the public; and how it will differ from was derived; what is the annual amount in a modelled the HFEA’s previous consultations. [HL6980] fuel bill; and why the winter fuel payment is added To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to to general income as opposed to being deducted the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 7 February from the modelled fuel bill when calculating the (WA 10), whether they will ensure that decisions fuel poverty ration for households in fuel poverty. have not already been taken by Human Fertilisation [HL6938] WA 221 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 222

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Fuel Duty Receipts from Road of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): The Fuels (£ billion) definition of fuel poverty set out in the Fuel Poverty Strategy was the most widely accepted definition of a 2008-09 24.0 fuel-poor household. The definition was consulted 2009-10 25.6 upon prior to the strategy being published and was broadly the same as the definition that already existed Broad estimates of the revenue raised from VAT on in academia. fuel can be made using consumer expenditure data for The modelled fuel bill is the sum of annual modelled fuels from the Office of National Statistics’ Consumer bills for space heating, water heating, lights and appliance Trends publication (series code CDDY in Table 07.CN): usage and cooking costs for each household. The www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_economy/ requirement for each of these is modelled based on the consumer-trends-q3-2010.pdf. dwelling, the efficiency and structure of the dwelling, Future VAT revenue impacts from policy changes the people who live there, their personal circumstances are estimated at an aggregate level and are not available and requirements and the fuels used. Information on for individual goods and services. householders and dwellings used to calculate these Paragraphs 8-10 of the Office for Budgetary modelled bills comes from the English Housing Survey. Responsibility’s Assessment of the Effect of Oil Price The fuel poverty methodology handbook can be found Fluctuations on the Public Finances report outline the at www.decc.gov.uk/Media/viewfile.ashx?FilePath= impact that fuel price shocks have on fuel duty and Statistics/fueipoverty/614-fuel-poverty methodology VAT revenues: budgetresponsibility.independent.gov. -handbook.pdfandfiIetype=4andminwidth=true. uk/d/assessment_oilprice_publicfinances.pdf. Consistent with other statistics, Winter Fuel Payments are classified as an addition to recipients’ incomes. They make an important contribution to tackling fuel Energy: Generation Capacity poverty and were responsible for taking around 100,000 households out of fuel poverty in England in 2008 Question (and up to 200,000 in the UK as a whole). Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Whilst it remains appropriate to consider Winter Fuel Payments in this way for statistical purposes, to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion gain a full picture of the impact of Winter Fuel of total installed generating capacity is required to Payments on the situation of fuel-poor households it preserve security of supply, including during periods is also useful to consider what effect they would have if of maximum demand; and what proportion is made used to meet energy bills directly. Taking this approach, up by wind power. [HL6706] around 850,000 fewer households in England (and around 1.25 million fewer households in the UK as a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department whole) are shown to need to spend more that 10 per of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): National cent of their income in order to meet the remaining Grid’s winter outlook 2010-11 indicates that based on costs of heating their home adequately. data submitted by generators, the notified of operational generation capability was 77.7 gigawatts (GW) at the start of winter. The forecast average cold spell (ACS) Energy: Fuel VAT peak demand for this winter was 57.7 GW.This provides Question a margin over peak demand of 20.7GW or 35 per cent (a historically high margin). There is 2.5GW of installed Asked by Lord Laird wind generation capacity connected directly to the transmission network (about 3 per cent of the total), To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much though National Grid assumes that, on average, this was raised in the last three years from duty on road capacity will be available only 10 per cent of the time. fuels; how much from VAT on fuel; what is the estimated extra annual revenue from the increase in VAT on road fuels; and how much extra road fuel Energy: Green Growth duty and VAT revenue is raised every time road fuel prices go up by 5p a litre. [HL6783] Questions Asked by Baroness Kramer The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): Fuel duty receipts are published in table 3 of To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much the UK Trade Info Hydrocarbon Oils Bulletin: https:// money they will have spent on financing green www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=bulloilandhas growth by the next budget; and how that compares FlashPlayer=true. to private sector investment in green projects. [HL6892] Fuel duty receipts for the past three years are summarised in the following table: Lord De Mauley: This Government will spend Fuel Duty Receipts from Road £4.9 billion on environment and green growth measures Fuels (£ billion) in 2010-11. The spending review protects environmental spending and, in recognition of its importance to 2007-08 24.4 ensuring sustainable growth in the long term, this will WA 223 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 224 increase to £6.5 billion by 2014-15—an increase of EU: Common Fisheries Policy 21 per cent in real terms over the next spending review period. Question The Government do not hold specific information Asked by Lord Eden of Winton on private sector investment in green projects. However, alongside the spending review, the Government published To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress their National Infrastructure Plan, which said that is being made in their discussions on the European over the next five years some £200 billion will be Union Common Fisheries Policy; and when action invested in UK economic infrastructure. The majority will be taken to end fish discards. [HL6790] of investment will be in energy and transport, and will come from the private sector. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Asked by Baroness Kramer for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): We are building support for radical reform of the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) through discussions will ensure that any new funding mechanisms for with the EU Fisheries Commissioner and other member green industries will be long-term in order to provide state Ministers, along with representatives of the fishing certainty for financial markets. [HL6893] industry—bothlarge-scaleandunder-10-metrefleets—MEPs, retailers and non-governmental organisations. Our focus is to simplify and decentralise fisheries management, Lord De Mauley: The Government recognise the enabling those closest to fisheries to plan for the long importance of providing certainty for investors in term integrating fisheries management and marine green industries in designing incentive frameworks. At conservation and giving fishermen greater incentive to the same time, the Government also need to be able to fish sustainably, including the means to end discards. assure the affordability of support and that taxpayers’ The UK Government, however, are not simply waiting or energy consumers’ money is being used cost-effectively. until reform of the CFP to take action on discards. We The Government are committed to balancing these have already undertaken a number of initiatives that objectives to deliver effective and sustainable funding have delivered excellent results. Project 50%, a collaborative frameworks for green industries. We also remains project between fishermen and the Government, saw committed to our policy of maintaining support levels discards in the South West sole fishery reduced by over for existing investments benefiting from renewable 50 per cent. We are also pioneering an alternative financial incentives and not making retrospective changes. “catch quota” management system that is based on Asked by Baroness Kramer managing and monitoring what is caught, not just what is landed. Cod discards by vessels participating To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their in the 2010 trial were reduced significantly, and we are assessment of the effect of government-backed projects, expanding the trial in 2011 to include more vessels and such as the carbon capture and storage plants, on species. creating an independent funding system for green Furthermore, we are taking action through the growth projects. [HL6894] Fishing for the Market project by seeking to encourage consumption of alternative and sustainable underutilised species that are presently discarded. The aim of which The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department is to provide new opportunities for fishermen, as well of EnergyandClimateChange(LordMarland):Demonstration as reduce discards. programmes, such as the Government’s commitment to continuing public sector investment in CCS technology for four fossil fuel power stations, are necessary to EU: Emissions bring forward the commercial deployment of technologies Question that are needed to reduce the UK’s carbon emissions. These programmes also provide UK industry with a Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon first mover’s advantage in what are set to become global markets. The value to the UK from global To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment markets for new advanced coal and gas-fired generation they have made of European Union Energy plant, including that fitted or retrofitted with CCS, Commissioner Günther Oettinger’s statement to could be worth up to £6.5 billion a year by 2030. the Guardian newspaper on 10 February that raising These programmes are an essential part of the the European Union’s emission cuts to 30 per cent Government’s focus on green growth but we also by 2020 would lead to a faster process of de- recognise the need to accelerate and scale up private industrialisation in Europe. [HL7006] investment in green infrastructure that is already commercially proven. We are creating a Green Investment The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Bank that will provide funding for investments in of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): The infrastructure projects in areas where private sector EU has demonstrated over the past 20 years that it is investment is currently constrained. These projects possible to reduce greenhouse gas emissions whilst will facilitate the entrance of new types of investor simultaneously growing our economies. Whilst the macro into the UK’s green infrastructure and provide new and micro economic impacts of tighter emissions targets opportunities for jobs and economic growth throughout are difficult to model, it is clear that they will stimulate the UK. investment and job creation in growing low carbon WA 225 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 226 sectors. There are also a range of other benefits of The Commission has not made a formal request for moving to a 30 per cent target, such as reduced EU additional funding in its mid-term review. dependence on imported oil and gas and protecting economies against spikes in the oil price. We do recognise that decarbonising the most energy EU: Insurance intensive sectors will be challenging although the impacts Question will be limited to a small number of sectors for which appropriate measures will be employed. We should Asked by Lord Myners not exaggerate the risk. The Commission’s May 2010 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment analysis of the impact of a move to a 30 per cent GHG they have made of European Union proposals to target indicates that some of the most energy-intensive prohibit insurance companies taking into account sectors (for example ferrous and non-ferrous metals, gender in setting annuity terms. [HL7138] and some chemicals) would experience an additional production loss of only 0.1 per cent and 1 per cent compared with a 20 per cent EU target, even if other The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord countries remained at the low end of their Copenhagen Sassoon): The European Court of Justice is currently Accord pledges. considering a case brought before it, challenging the right of insurers to use gender as a risk factor in pricing policies. In advance of the judgment, we are working with the industry and the Financial Services EU: Galileo Satellite System Authority to ensure that the industry is aware of the Question ongoing situation and has planned appropriately. Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, European Gendarmerie Force following figures from the European Commission Question showing that the Galileo project will need an additional ¤1.9 billion to cover its costs, they will re-examine Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon the project and review their continued financial To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the support for it. [HL6222] European Gendarmerie Force may be permitted to be deployed in the United Kingdom or dependent territories. [HL6701] Earl Attlee: The Government are very disappointed that the European Commission has stated in its mid-term review of the European satellite navigation programme The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- that it will be unable to complete the deployment Jones): The Government see no circumstances in which phase of the Galileo system by the agreed target date the European Gendarmerie Force (EGF) might be of 2013 and within the agreed ¤3.4 billion budget deployed in the UK or in the British Overseas Territories covering that phase. It is extremely important, particularly or Crown Dependencies. in the current fiscal situation, that large projects are The EGF is a multinational initiative of six countries efficiently managed within the budgets agreed. The (France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands and Government have put this case to the Commission Romania) aimed at improving crisis management and will continue to do so in the future. capability in sensitive areas and supporting peacekeeping The navigation programme is managed by the missions around the world. The UK is not part of this European Commission and funded from the EU budget. initiative. The member states do not contribute funds to the programme directly. Most decisions on the programme are taken by qualified majority voting. Falkland Islands: Minefields The Government continue to believe that Galileo Questions has the potential to bring benefits to the UK, with regard to: Asked by Lord Chidgey the involvement of UK firms in constructing the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many system; and minefields remain in the Falkland Islands from the the services that will be available to end users once conflict with Argentina in 1982; how many mines the system is operational. are estimated to remain that were placed by British However, the Government are urging the Commission forces; and how many that were placed by Argentinian to consider options for reducing the scope of the forces. [HL6631] project so that it can be completed within the constraints of the budget that has been allocated to it. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry A system of reduced scope, operating fewer satellites of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): Some 83 minefields but working in conjunction with the American GPS, and suspected hazardous areas remain in the Falkland would still provide many benefits to a wide range of Islands. Over 15,600 (12,300 anti-personnel and 3,300 users, particularly in terms of signal availability and anti-vehicle) Argentinian-laid mines are estimated to resilience. remain. WA 227 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 228

Over 18,000 (14,000 anti-personnel and 4,000 anti- To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions vehicle) mines are estimated to have been laid by the they have had with the Financial Services Authority Argentinian armed forces in some 113 minefields and about adviser firms registered in other European four other suspected areas during the conflict. Over countries and operating in the United Kingdom 1,000 Argentinian anti-personnel, 80 anti-vehicle mines which can provide financial advice without having and 1,000 booby traps were cleared in 30 minefields in to comply with the requirements of the Retail the immediate aftermath. Distribution Review. [HL7040] All UK-emplaced mines in five anti-personnel minefields around the then RAF Stanley were lifted The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord immediately after the cessation of hostilities. One Elsie Sassoon): The Retail Distribution Review (RDR) is C3 anti-personnel mine is unaccounted for. the responsibility of the Financial Services Authority The 2009-10 pilot project cleared a further four (FSA), an independent body. The FSA’s rules on adviser minefields of 1,246 (678 anti-personnel and 568 anti- charging as part of the RDR will apply to all firms vehicle) mines. that give investment advice to retail clients, regardless of their business models. Asked by Lord Chidgey Treasury Ministers and officials have discussions with the FSA on a wide number of issues, including To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many the RDR. As was the case with previous Administrations, casualties have occurred in demining units from it is not the Government’s practice to provide details mine clearance operations in the Falkland Islands; of all such discussion. and how many civilian or other casualties have resulted from accidental mine explosions since 1983 in the Falkland Islands. [HL6632] Flooding: Insurance Question Lord Astor of Hever: There were 10 mine or unexploded Asked by Lord Myners ordnance casualties in 1982 after the cessation of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the hostilities. Of these, one was killed clearing a booby- reduction in public expenditure on flood prevention trapped missile. Of the remainder, three were listed took into account its effect on insurance premia; with serious leg or hand injuries and six casualties and whether they plan to discuss the matter with were not listed. insurers. [HL7139] There were two incidents resulting in soldiers being listed for serious leg injuries in 1983. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord One civilian de-miner received a superficial facial Sassoon): The Government are in discussions with injury during the 2009-10 pilot project. insurers and other key stakeholders about premia and No further civilian or other casualties have resulted wider matters relating to flood insurance. from accidental mine explosions since 1983. Fluoridation Finance: Investors Questions Asked by Earl Baldwin of Bewdley Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Asked by Lord Myners intend to follow the recommendations by the Nuffield Council on Bioethics in its 2007 report Public Health: To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Ethical Issues that “Water fluoridation policy should they have made of the extent to which institutional be objectively reviewed by the UK health departments investors have sufficient information to engage with on a regular basis in light of the findings of ongoing and approve or reject the remuneration proposals monitoring and further research studies. Furthermore, of publicly listed companies. [HL6917] the conclusions and their basis should routinely be published” [7.42]; and, if so, what mechanisms have The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department been or are being set up to achieve those aims. for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): I [HL6998] refer the noble Lord to my Answer of 19 January 2011 To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to (Official Report, col. WA 35). the Written Answer by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath on 30 January 2001 (WA 55) and in respect of the guidance letter about water fluoridation from the Finance: Retail Distribution Review Chief Dental Officer to Strategic Health Authorities and others (Gateway 9361) in February 2008, why Questions (a) no reference was made under “Benefits of Asked by Lord Dykes fluoridation” or in Appendix 1 to the York report’s explicit criticisms of the quality of evidence relating To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment to all aspects of fluoridation, and (b) there was no they have made of the Retail Distribution Review’s corresponding section “Harms of fluoridation” to proposal to treat competing business models differently address the incidence of dental fluorosis in children over adviser charging. [HL7039] found by York. [HL6999] WA 229 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 230

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Disposals Since 1 January 2005 Hectares of Health (Earl Howe): We will be reviewing policy in the light of the recent High Court judgment, which 18.03.2005 College Heath Suffolk 6 upheld the decision of the South Central Strategic Rd, Mildenhall County Health Authority to fluoridate Southampton and parts 01.04.2005 Ashbury Devon 14 of south-west Hampshire. In our review we will also Plantation, County consider any relevant research published since the letter Okehampton that the Chief Dental Officer published in February 05.05.2005 Dane Wood, East Sussex 7 2008 and the comments that the noble Earl has made St Leonards County on the letter. 16.05.2005 Back Wood, Lincolnshire 11 Nettleton County Asked by Earl Baldwin of Bewdley 31.05.2005 A30 Devon 9 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Improvement County statements on the website of the National Fluoride at Whimple Information Centre that naturally and artificially 13.03.2006 Nipstone Shropshire 33 Plantation, County fluoridated water have “exactly the same” effect Shropshire upon the teeth and body, and in the February 2008 21.04.2006 Evistones and Northumberland 63 letter about water fluoridation from the Chief Dental The Roooken County Officer to Strategic Health Authorities and others 29.09.2006 Sparrwood West Sussex 12 (Gateway 9361) that “no evidence for any differences” Hanger and County in effect were found, take account of the article Outlier Bioavailability of Fluoride in Drinking Water: a 16.11.2006 Wistlandpound Devon 3 Human Experimental Study by Maguire et al in the Reservoir County Journal of Dental Research (84 (11): 989–993, 2005), 16.11.2006 Spye Park Wiltshire 77 and the criticisms of that study by Professors Sheldon Estate County and Holgate in the same journal in January 2008 21.12.2006 Moreton Devon 10 (87(1):8). [HL7000] Woods, Nine County Acre Plant. Earl Howe: This a complex area of research on 15.01.2007 Nichols Reeds Devon 13 which all well informed contributions are welcome, Wood, County but we accept the conclusion reached by Dr Maguire Upottery and colleagues that “there was no statistically significant 16.01.2007 Black Bank, Durham 16 difference between artificially fluoridated and naturally Bishop County fluoridated water”. Auckland 30.01.2007 A43 Bypass, Northamptonshire 4 Forestry Hazelborough County Wood Question 01.02.2007 Threestoneburn Northumberland 712 Asked by Lord Greaves Wood County To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to 09.03.2007 Hens Wood, Wiltshire 136 Savernake County the Written Answer by Lord Henley on 7 February (WA 20–1), whether the temporary suspension of 02.04.2007 Cleaves Wood Devon 13 and Horns County the programme of forestry sales announced in spending Copse review 2010 includes land in the 2010–11 sales 02.04.2007 Warthill Shropshire 30 programme agreed by the previous administration. Plantation, County [HL6970] Hopesay 02.04.2007 Heron Lye Gill North 47 Lord De Mauley: The review of the criteria for the and Old Barn, Yorkshire Forestry Commission’s 2011-12 asset sales programme Yearsley County has no impact on the land that the Forestry Commission 02.04.2007 Wort and Devon 40 has already placed on the market. The Forestry Gratton Wood County Commission is in the process of concluding the 2010-11 05.04.2007 Cumberland Devon 5 sales. Wood, Kenn County 10.04.2007 Woolley Wood, Devon 29 Forestry Commission Youlstone, County. Questions Bude Cornwall 10.04.2007 Higher Devon 8 Asked by Lord Greaves Merryfield, County To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Forestry Holsworthy Commission land has been sold in the past six 10.04.2007 Rydon Moor, Devon 13 years; and what land has been bought by or transferred Holsworthy County into the Forestry Commission estate in that time. 10.04.2007 Forda Farm, Devon 30 Bradworthy, County [HL6730] Holsworthy Lord De Mauley: The areas of land sold by the 10.04.2007 Runnaland Devon 16 Plantation, County Forestry Commission since 1 January 2005 are given Crediton in the tables below. WA 231 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 232

Disposals Since 1 January 2005 Hectares Disposals Since 1 January 2005 Hectares

11.04.2007 Black Bank Durham 150 30.01.2009 Colebrook Devon 7 Plantation, County Wood, County Bishop Kingford Auckland 02.02.2009 Peat Pits, Derbyshire 29 16.04.2007 Packington Warwickshire 113 Wigwell Est, County Estate, County. Alderwasley Meriden Solihull 19.02.2009 Lynch and Northumberland 20 27.04.2007 Old Devon 20 Heathery County Larkworthy County Grange Wood Plantation, 20.03.2009 Woodhall Park Hertfordshire 194 Ashwater Est, Bramfield County 04.05.2007 Nine Acres Devon 9 20.03.2009 Balls and Hertfordshire 59 Plantation, County Hobbyhorse County Upottery Wood 16.07.2007 Hollinwell Nottinghamshire 24 Golf Course, County 24.03.2009 Ten Acre Wood East Sussex 4 Kirkby Forest County 20.07.2007 Ogbeare Hall Cornwall 21 25.03.2009 Woodman’s Hertfordshire 22 Woods County Wood County 01.08.2007 A617 Nottinghamshire 13 01.04.2009 The Plantation, Dorset 11 Rainworth County France Oaks County Bypass and Keepers Cottage 02.08.2007 Blackaburn Northumberland 16 Farm, Hexham County 06.04.2009 Gratleigh Devon 20 Wood, High County 29.08.2007 Sandgates, Wiltshire 8 Bickington Grovely, County Wilton 06.04.2009 Birsley Wood, Northumberland 36 06.09.2007 Flintland Dorset 6 Edlingham, County Batch, County Alnwick Bridport, 09.04.2009 The Globe, County of 31 Dorset Presteigne Herefordshire 06.09.2007 Sherratt’s Cheshire 15 16.04.2009 Knitsley Durham 30 Rough and County Plantation, County Church-Hill Durham Wood 21.04.2009 Flatropers East Sussex 3 01.11.2007 Roughclose Dorset 5 Wood, Beckley, County Wood, County Rye Bridport, Dorset 22.04.2009 Wraby Moors, North 70 North Lindsey, Lincolnshire 30.11.2007 East Hope Durham 32 Brigg Farm, The County Stang 08.05.2009 Kemphill Isle of Wight 19 Moor Copse, 07.12.2007 Avon Dorset 85 Havenstreet Common, County Hurn 02.06.2009 Stockings Buckinghamshire 6 Spring, County 14.12.2007 Hopton Castle, Shropshire 8 Latimer Estate Clunbury County 25.01.2008 Holmsley Hampshire 5 02.06.2009 Throat Wood, Northumberland 6 Lodge and County Brinkburn, County Shrike Cottage Morpeth 29.02.2008 Linn and Hope Northumberland 46 01.07.2009 Badland Shaw, East Sussex 4 Woods, County Robertsbridge County Brinkburn 01.07.2009 Westland Buckinghamshire 6 14.03.2008 Bishops(Brown) Devon 61 Spring, County Down Wood, County. Latimer Estate Chard Somerset 06.07.2009 Washer’s and Bedfordshire 42 18.03.2008 Grindleton Lancashire 147 Daintry County Fell, Gisburn County Woods, Forest Tingrith 28.03.2008 Bere Heath Dorset 30 15.07.2009 Pennygrove East Sussex 5 Gallows Hill County Wood, Swaile’s County Green 31.03.2008 Cauldwell Rd, Nottinghamshire 3 Thieves Wood County 26.07.2009 Harmergreen Hertfordshire 25 18.09.2008 Stone Pits and Dorset 14 Wood, Welwyn County The Plantation County 31.07.2009 Lamb’s Spring, Hertfordshire 12 12.01.2009 Cuckoo Pen Northamptonshire 51 Hemel County and The County Hempstead Linches, 21.09.2009 Yellowham Dorset 4 Lilford Wood County 30.01.2009 Braydon Oak, Wiltshire 5 05.10.2009 Stanton Park, Wiltshire 59 Savernake County Chippenham County WA 233 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 234

Disposals Since 1 January 2005 Hectares Disposals Since 1 January 2005 Hectares

13.10.2009 Sam Wood, North 4 24.03.2010 West Wood, County of 34 Raskelf, York Yorkshire Mordiford, Herefordshire County Herefordshire 05.11.2009 Woodhouse Isle of Wight 18 25.03.2010 Stoke Wood Shropshire 73 Copse, East and Pt. Rotting County Cowes Wood, 01.12.2009 Parke Copse, Northamptonshire 18 Whettleton Wicken Rd County 26.03.2010 Sheeps Walk Norfolk 18 02.12.2009 The Knoll, County of 24 Plantation, County Leominster Herefordshire Marsham, Norfolk 14.12.2009 White Wood, Rutland 3 Clipsham 01.04.2010 Heydon Hill, Somerset 4 Chipstable County 14.12.2009 Watercroft Buckinghamshire 6 Wood, High County 01.04.2010 Straightway Devon 10 Wycombe Head Big County Wood, Exeter 17.12.2009 Sixteen Acre County of 6 Wood, Ross- Herefordshire 01.04.2010 The Lings, Norfolk 29 on-Wye Little Snoring County 17.12.2009 Clumber Lane Nottinghamshire 11 01.04.2010 Gedgrave Suffolk 80 End, Worksop County Broom, County Sudbourne 17.12.2009 Maidford Northamptonshire 14 Wood, County 28.04.2010 Breaches Buckinghamshire 5 Towcester Wood, County Amersham 17.12.2009 Netherwood, County of 54 Aconbury Herefordshire 06.05.2010 Middle Hill, Somerset 36 Chipstable County 18.12.2009 Seawell Wood, Northamptonshire 25 Maidford County 10.06.2010 Black Down, Dorset 114 Dorchester County 18.12.2009 Coughton Park Warwickshire 76 and Butlers County 25.06.2010 Hugset Wood, Barnsley 33 Coppice Barnsley district 22.12.2009 Counslow Staffordshire 17 20.08.2010 High Wood, East Sussex 20 Plantation, County Uckfield County Alton 08.09.2010 The Stang Durham 71 04.01.2010 Oak Wood, East Sussex 5 County Beckley,Rye County 30.09.2010 Whitfield Buckinghamshire 38 22.01.2010 Cheriton Hampshire 93 Wood, County Wood, County Brackley Bramdean 07.10.2010 Pontesford Hill Shropshire 33 02.02.2010 Hall Wood, Cornwall 31 County Pelynt, Looe County 12.10.2010 Buslingthorpe Lincolnshire 22 Wood County 05.02.2010 Ketford Wood, Gloucestershire 47 Dymock County 15.10.2010 Rigg Wood, Cumbria 16 Coniston County 08.02.2010 Tin Mill, Barnsley 9 Wortley, district 26.10.2010 Darcliff Wood, Nottinghamshire 21 Barnsley Nottinghamshire County 15.02.2010 The Larches, Rutland 8 29.10.2010 Swanton Norfolk 172 Clipsham, Novers Wood County Rutland 11.11.2010 Priesthay Northamptonshire 6 23.02.2010 Abbotts Wood Surrey 5 Wood, County Hill, Farnham County Brackley 01.03.2010 Redmarley Gloucestershire 43 30.11.2010 Cutts Long Nottinghamshire 13 Wood, County Belt, Rufford County Ketford, 01.12.2010 Bonny Cliff North 62 Dymock Plantation, Yorkshire 04.03.2010 Old Park Barnsley 5 Faceby County Wood, district 01.12.2010 High Loft Cumbria 23 Barnsley Wood, Cartmel County 04.03.2010 Chipstable Somerset 6 Fell Wood, Old County 03.12.2010 Croftmoor Devon 12 Way, Taunton Plantation, County 05.03.2010 Pound Wood, Buckinghamshire 6 Halwill High Wycombe County 07.12.2010 Annesley Nottinghamshire 20 12.03.2010 Funnells East Sussex 76 Friezeland County Wood, County 07.12.2010 Annesley Little Nottinghamshire 9 Uckfield Oak Plantation County 19.03.2010 Pasture Wood, Surrey 36 08.12.2010 Towthorpe Yo rk 3 Abinger County Wood Sand 22.03.2010 Ash Grove Buckinghamshire 9 Hutton (South) Wood, County 08.12.2010 Canny Hill Cumbria 27 Amersham County WA 235 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 236

Acquisitions since 1 January 2005 Disposals Since 1 January 2005 Hectares 15.03.2007 Silverhill Nottinghamshire 115 15.12.2010 Wolsingham, Durham 31 (Colliery) County Stanley Beck County Wood, 17.12.2010 Ostlers Kirkby Lincolnshire 71 Teversal Moor and County 30.03.2007 Clifton Salford District 18 White Hall Junction Wood (Livia), 22.12.2010 Wicken Northamptonshire 79 Prestwich County 30.03.2007 Rochdale Rochdale District 27 07.01.2011 Stockheath Norfolk 41 27.07.2007 Ingrebourne Greater London 25 (Great Heath) County Valley, Authority 24.01.2011 Stang—Lot 1 Durham 645 Hornchurch West and Lot 2 County 07.09.2007 United Bury District 10 East Utilities Site, 19.01.2011 Broomrigg Cumbria 120 Livia, County Prestwich 26.01.2011 Parkwood Lot Cumbria 11 20.12.2007 Willesley Leicestershire 74 2 Halls Beck, County Lane, Moira County Bassenthwaite 22.01.2008 Bevercotes Nottinghamshire 115 11.01.2011 Scafies Wood Durham 13 Colliery Tip County County 07.02.2008 Red Quarry St Helens District 3 03.02.2011 Cropple How Cumbria 40 (Ibstock) County St Helens 01.02.2011 Alice Holt Hampshire 9.00 07.02.2008 Brickfields St Helens District 3 (Cobdens County (Ibstock) Copse) St Helens 11.01.2011 Parkwood Lot Cumbria 42 29.02.2008 Oxclose Nottinghamshire 58 1 Park wood, County Wood County Bassenthwaite (Colliery) 10.01.2011 Sand Hutton North 16 Mansfield Lot 4 Grange Yorkshire 31.03.2008 Ibstock St Helens District 5 Wood County (Daisyfield Quarry) St Helens 13.05.2008 Town Lane Lancashire 25 The acquisitions to the Forestry Commission public Tip, County forest estate in the past six years are given in the table Southport below. 18.03.2009 Bury Site Bury District 72 Acquisitions since 1 January 2005 (Livia), Prestwich 14.01.2005 Linmere and Cheshire County 3 19.04.2010 Carrington Salford District 27 Hatchmere St and Car Parks Lumns Lane, 27.01.2005 Wood Walk, Barnsley District 11 Livia Wombwell 01.06.2010 Upper Barnsley District 58 Wood Woodhead 01.04.2005 Jeskyns Kent County 147 Fm, Farm Wentworth Rd, Barnsley 12.04.2005 Warren Hampshire 225 Heath County 18.06.2010 Belfield, Rochdale District 3 Chichester 22.08.2005 Balls and Hertfordshire 59 St, Rochdale Hobbyhorse County Wood 28.06.2010 Wootton Dorset County 83 Fiztpaine 30.09.2005 Moston Manchester 18 Vale, District Manchester Asked by Lord Clark of Windermere 14.02.2006 Bidston Wirral District 35 Moss, Wirral To ask Her Majesty’s Government which forests 29.03.2006 Boundary Nottinghamshire 86 have been sold by the Forestry Commission since Wood, County 11 May 2010; what are their locations, sizes and Blidworth, prices of purchase; who purchased the forests; and Notts whether there was access to them under the Countryside 20.06.2006 Linmere, Cheshire County 5 Delamere, and Rights of Way Act 2000. [HL6805] Cheshire 23.08.2006 Cross Lane Wirral District 27 Lord De Mauley: The table below lists the land sold and Bidston by the Forestry Commission since 11 May 2010 under Moss the sales programme established by the previous 13.10.2006 Livia Salford District 62 Administration. The land sold includes freehold and 30.01.2007 North East Northamptonshire 6 leasehold land; and the table indicates which portions of M1, County of land were dedicated under the Countryside and Hartwell Rights of Way Act 2000. WA 237 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 238

Wood Name County Area (hectares) Price (£) Purchaser

Land Dedicated Under The Countryside And Rights Of Way Act 2000 The Stang County Durham 525 3,253,444 A Vincent, D M Hunter, M A Bates and J Bondi Black Down, Dorchester Dorset 114 355,000 Dorset County Council Park Wood,Bassenthwaite Cumbria 42 250,000 M Townsend and V Fyffe Cropple How Plantation, Ravenglass Cumbria 39 201,501 Paul Michael Mason Whitfield Wood, Brackley Buckinghamshire 38 353,000 Peter Wilson Humm Stanley Beck, Wolsingham Rd County Durham 31 121,500 H W and P A Bence Hoggarths Plantation, Ulverston Cumbria 27 205,000 Woodlands Investment Management High Loft Wood, Cartmel Fell Cumbria 23 156,550 M J D Cavanagh Buslingthorpe Wood Lincolnshire 22 115,908 Woodland Investment Management Ltd Rigg Wood, Coniston Cumbria 16 116,000 Michael John David Cavanagh College Wood, Biggleswade Bedfordshire 15 137,520 John Barber Croftmoor Plantation, Halwill Devon 12 98,000 Kathleen Betty Down Park Wood, Bassenthwaite Cumbria 11 150,000 James Lorrain Gattward Boxall’s and Cobden’s Copse Hampshire 9 111,700 Performance Strategies (UK) Ltd Priesthay Wood, Brackley Northamptonshire 6 60,100 P G and P W Turnham Land Not Dedicated Under The Countryside And Rights Of Way Act 2000 Swanton Novers Wood Norfolk 172 315,000 The Right Hon. D T H Lord and Lady Hastings Broomrigg Estate, Ainstable Cumbria 120 499,950 First Stellar Forestry Fund Ltd Partnership Acton Burnell Park, Shrewsbury Shropshire 84 150,000 A K andKHNSparkes Wicken Wood, Lillingstone Lovell Northamptonshire 78 200,000 The Merchant Venturers of the City of Bristol The Stang County Durham 71 42,000 Dale Ltd Bonny Cliff Plantation, Faceby North Yorkshire 61 40,000 J M Copeland and P Saddington Great Heath Plantation, Thursford Norfolk 41 183,667 Albanwise Ltd Hugset Wood, South Yorkshire South Yorkshire 33 150,105 P andEAEarnshawand Evelyn Rhodes Pontesford Hill Shropshire 33 102,726 S Holland Hutchen and PAL Trustees Ltd Annesley, Friezeland Nottinghamshire 20 70,000 I P M Payne, H G Fetherstonhaugh and F Russell High Wood, Uckfield East Sussex 20 140,000 J E D Buchanan Darcliff Wood, Nottinghamshire Nottinghamshire 18 75,000 The Honourable Edward Wood and Others Cutts Long Belt, Rufford Nottinghamshire 13 112,050 Geof Bower Ltd Little Oak Plantation, Annesley Nottinghamshire 9 35,000 I P Milner Payne, H G Fetherstonhaugh and F Russell Birch Plantation, Towthorpe North Yorkshire 3 8,000 G E andMDSykes Kissthorn Wood, Sand Hutton North Yorkshire 3 35,162 Aldby Field Nurseries Ltd

Asked by Lord Greaves of the public forest estate managed by the Forestry Commission that is in leasehold ownership amounts To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to to around 23 per cent (58,000 hectares). Lord Henley the answer by Lord Henley on 2 February (HL Deb, was referring to statutory rights of access: less than col. 1407) that “something of the order of 20 per 1,000 hectares of this leasehold land has been dedicated cent of the forestry estate has no access because it is for access on foot in perpetuity under the provisions in on leasehold land and access was never granted to the Countryside and Rights of Way Act. it”, whether he was referring to statutory rights of access; and whether the Forestry Commission allows For the remaining leasehold land, the Forestry non-statutory public access to a majority of the Commission allows non-statutory access where possible. leasehold land that it manages. [HL6890] Approximately 30 per cent of leasehold land permits this, while 66 per cent of leasehold land has some Lord De Mauley: The Forestry Commission allows constraints on access, which are set out in the lease. A and encourages public access to the public forest estate small area has access by agreement and in some places wherever legally and practically possible. The proportion public access is tolerated by the freeholder. WA 239 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 240

Asked by Lord Clark of Windermere in section 3.3 of The Future of the Public Forest Estate in England. [HL6889] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many hectares of Forestry Commission land were sold To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether (a) between 1979 and 1997, and (b) between 1997 clauses 17 to 19 of the Public Bodies Bill [HL] and 2010; and what each amount represented as a would allow the Secretary of State to make orders percentage of the total Forestry Commission holding which could alter any provisions of the New Forest at the time. [HL7034] Acts, or abolish or alter any powers of the Forestry Commissioners which are set out in those Acts. Lord De Mauley: The public forest estate in England, [HL6965] Scotland and Wales managed by the Forestry Commission was treated as a single entity between 1979 and 1997. Lord De Mauley: The consultation on the future of During that time the total area managed decreased by the Public Forest Estate has been halted and all forestry 183,300 hectares, or 14.6 per cent. clauses in the Public Bodies Bill will be removed. An Forestry was devolved in 1999 and the area sold in independent panel of experts will now examine forestry Scotland and Wales from this time is a matter for the policy in England and report back to Ministers in the respective administrations. Land sales in England from autumn. January 1997 to December 2010 amounted to 12,120 hectares. The Forestry Commission estimates that this represents 4.5 per cent of the January 1997 land area. Freedom of Information Act 2000 Question Asked by Lord Greaves Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark To ask Her Majesty’s Government which Forestry Commission-managed land they are currently offering To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many or negotiating for sale; for which land they intend requests under the Freedom of Information Act to seek purchasers within the next four years; and 2000 they have received since 11 May 2010; how what are the expected receipts. [HL6605] many have been complied with; and how many To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their refused. [HL6976] criteria for selecting Forestry Commission-managed land to be made available for sale in the next four The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord years; and how much of that land is not currently McNally): The Ministry of Justice publishes quarterly forested. [HL6606] statistics on the operation of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) within central government. Although data To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the is not available showing the operation of the FOIA proposed community or civil society right to buy or from 11 May 2010 to the present time, statistics for the lease set out in section 3.3 of The Future of the second and third quarters of 2010 (1 April - 30 September Public Forest Estate in England could be exercised 2010) are available on the Ministry of Justice website, by (a) a principal local authority, and (b) a parish and from the Printed Paper Office in the House of council. [HL6888] Lords. Statistics for the fourth quarter of 2010 To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the (1 October - 31 December) will be published on procedure for transferring Forestry Commission 28 April and for subsequent periods in due course. land to a local community or civil society group The table below provides details of the responses to under Chapter 4 of Part 4 of the Localism Bill FOIA requests by departments of state in the second would differ from such a transfer under the proposals and third quarters of 2010.

Initial outcome of request Total requests Requests Percentage Percentage received where of of (excluding advice Requests resolvable resolvable Total for on-hold and where Total Response requests requests departments and assistance information resolvable Granted Partially Fully not yet granted in withheld of state lapsed) provided not held requests in full withheld withheld provided* full (%) in full (%)

April-June 6,338 497 1,259 4,582 2,775 532 946 329 61 21 2010 (Q2) July- 7,200 516 1,197 5,487 3,133 641 1,300 413 57 24 September 2010 (Q3)

* At the time quarterly data was collected by MoJ. WA 241 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 242

Government Departments: Expenditure recommendations on procurement, including the centralisation and aggregation of standard specific Questions goods and services. Asked by Lord Empey Government are supportive of Sir Philip Green’s efficiency review which brought to light price differentials To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they regarding certain office supplies which were outlined permit Government departments to convert some in his final report. The Department of Energy and of their revenue budget allocations to capital Climate Change paid the most and the Highways allocations. [HL6939] Agency the least for the box of paper quoted within To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Sir Philip’s report. permit Government departments to convert funds A new strategy for office supplies is in the process allocated for capital provision to revenue in order of being finalised with a view to be in place by summer to fund public schemes. [HL6940] 2011. The price differentials identified in the Green review have been rectified across the specific departments and all departments are now buying paper towards the The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord lower prices identified. Sassoon): Under the Consolidated Budgeting Guidance, departments may choose to switch non-ringfenced resource Departmental Expenditure Limit to capital Government Departments: Staff Departmental Expenditure Limit. Under the Consolidated Question Budgeting Guidance, departments may not switch capital Departmental Expenditure Limit to resource Asked by Lord Birt Departmental Expenditure Limit. Such switches would have a detrimental impact on the cyclically adjusted To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many surplus on the Budget, which is the measure by which government departments have a finance head with the Government’s fiscal mandate is defined. accountancy qualifications. [HL6978] Asked by Lord Harris of Haringey The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord To ask Her Majesty’s Government what will Sassoon): All government departments have officials happen to the grant-in-aid underspend in 2010–11 with accountancy qualifications acting as the most that has been returned to the Department for Business, senior finance professional. In all cases but one, this Innovation and Skills following the closure of official sits on the departmental management board. Enterprise UK. [HL7011] Government: Ministerial Visits The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Question Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): Enterprise UK is an independent charity that Asked by Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean has received grant-in-aid funding up to and including this financial year 2010-11. They also generate investment To ask Her Majesty’s Government which countries income and have surpluses made on sponsorship and in the Arab Middle East have been visited by the other non-BIS funding for activities and projects. Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills since he took office in May 2010. [HL7043] Some of the 2010-11 grant-in-aid not spent on agreed activities will be applied to redundancy and wind-down costs for Enterprise UK, thereby ensuring The Minister of State, Department for Business, that Enterprise UK can secure continuation of key Innovation and Skills and Foreign and Commonwealth activities such as the “termer” campaign through legacy Office (Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint): The Secretary arrangements with new delivery bodies. of State for Business, Innovation and Skills has not yet had the opportunity to visit the Middle East since he took office. However, this Government are committed to strengthening relations across the region, and the Government Departments: Office Supplies department pays close attention to the Middle East. In Question January this year, the Minister of State for Business and Enterprise visited Qatar, Kuwait and Jordan and, Asked by Lord Birt in February, I accompanied the Prime Minister on his visit to the region (Egypt, Kuwait, Qatar and Oman). To ask Her Majesty’s Government which departments were identified in Sir Philip Green’s efficiency review as paying the high price of £73 and Government: Overseas Business Interests the low price of £8 for a box of A4 paper. [HL6690] Question Asked by Lord Myners Lord De Mauley: The centralised category procurement To ask Her Majesty’s Government, with reference programme, run by the Efficiency and Reform Group to the statement by Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint within the Cabinet Office, has incorporated Sir Philip’s reported in the Daily Telegraph on 10 February that WA 243 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 244

“We will have individual ministers held accountable The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for particular relationships, as it were assigned to of Health (Earl Howe): The department is committed overseas relationships with particular big exporters to raising awareness of diabetes. We are supportive of on a name by name basis”, which ministers are so the work of Diabetes UK and recognise the importance assigned to major exporters; where a list of those of Diabetes Week. We are currently considering our ministers and the exporters they are assigned to will plans for any support that we can give to Diabetes be available for public inspection; and what measures Week. are in place to manage any potential conflicts of Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark interest. [HL6957] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support The Minister of State, Department for Business, they are giving to World Diabetes Day. [HL7031] Innovation and Skills and Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint): Her Majesty’s Earl Howe: The department is committed to raising Government are developing their detailed plans for the awareness of diabetes. We are supportive of the this work, and are currently identifying which Ministers work of the International Diabetes Federation and will be assigned to lead their relationship with these recognise the importance of World Diabetes Day. We companies. We are also considering what information will be considering our plans for any support that we we will make available, recognising the need to balance can give to World Diabetes Day later in the year. our commitment to transparency with the needs of commercial confidentiality. In assigning Ministers to Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark companies, we will follow the usual procedures for handling any potential conflicts of interest. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the role played by cytotoxic T-cells in type 1 diabetes. [HL7032] Gulf War Illnesses Question Earl Howe: The role played by cytotoxic T-cells in type 1 diabetes is an emerging area of research. Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester The Medical Research Council (MRC) funds a To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to broad portfolio of diabetes research amounting to the Written Answer by Lord Astor of Hever on £28.1 million in 2008-09, of which £6.5 million was 8 February (WA 47–8), why the Ministry of Defence directly relevant to type 1 diabetes. The MRC is supporting spends some £9 million on research into Gulf War research at the University of Wales College of Medicine illnesses as they affect British veterans of the conflict in Cardiff, led by Dr A Gallimore, which aims to compared with the $402,172,122 spent by the United determine the biological parameters that govern the States Department of Veterans Affairs on the illnesses activity of CD 25+ regulatory cells (a type of T-cell), of United States veterans of the conflict. [HL6849] thereby providing a better understanding of the development of autoimmune diseases such as diabetes and arthritis and the interaction of the immune system The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry with cancer cells. Further information on this study of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The UK Armed and other MRC-funded research can be found at: Forces deployed to the Gulf in 1990-91 represented www.mrc.ac.uk/ResearchPortfolio/index.htm. about 10 per cent of the US complement and although In addition, the National Institute of Health Research the amount spent on research into Gulf War illnesses Comprehensive Biomedical Research Centre at Guy’s differs significantly, their findings are similar. The and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust and King’s research concludes that there is no unique Gulf War College London is carrying out research on antigen- Syndrome and that the use of organophosphate pesticides, specific autoimmunity in type 1 diabetes. anti-biological warfare vaccines and anti-nerve agent tablets is not the cause of the ill-health reported by some Gulf veterans. Health: Diabetic Retinopathy The Ministry of Defence strategy on research topics and studies has been informed by independent scientific Question experts nominated by the Medical Research Council, Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark and takes account of the published peer-reviewed international literature and knowledge of international To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many studies planned or in progress. retinopathy screening examinations for people with diabetes were carried out by the National Health Service in each year from 1996 to 2010. [HL6670] Health: Diabetes Questions The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark of Health (Earl Howe): Information before 2005 was not collected centrally. The following table shows the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans number of patients receiving diabetic retinopathy screening they have to support Diabetes Week. [HL6972] in the previous 12 months 2004-05 to 2010-11. WA 245 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 246

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment No of patients receiving 12 months ending screening they have made of the impact of their proposed medicines value-based pricing system on the United March 2005 1,076,388 Kingdom’s generic medicines market. [HL6913] March 2006 1,232,043 March 2007 1,256,463 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what will be the cost of administering a medicines value-based March 2008 1,324,354 pricing system. [HL6914] March 2009 1,539,384 March 2010 1,634,764 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in September 2010 1,684,205 taking forward their proposals on medicines value- December 2010 1,792,921 based pricing, they intend to introduce a co-payment system similar to value-based pricing systems in Source: Vital Signs Monitoring return other countries. [HL6950]

Health: Drugs Earl Howe: The consultation document A new value- Questions based approach to the pricing of branded medicines sets outs our proposals for value-based pricing. The Asked by The Earl of Sandwich consultation runs until 17 March 2011 and responses to the consultation will inform work to develop the To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they new system. The impact assessment sets out an evaluation will publish their review of the problems of addiction of the effects of our proposals. Copies of the consultation to, and withdrawal from, prescribed tranquillisers document and the impact assessment have already and painkillers; and what action they will take. been placed in the Library. [HL6878] The impact assessment accompanying the consultation To ask Her Majesty’s Government what services document states that pricing in as much as 25 per cent they offer to sufferers of benzodiazepine addiction of the world pharmaceutical market includes the United and withdrawal; how many primary care trusts Kingdom as a reference, among other countries. No provide those services; and in which areas. [HL6879] assessment has been made of the influence that the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the National UK pharmaceutical industry has on prices of drugs in Health Service will respond in future to the needs of other countries. sufferers of combination drug addiction involving The design of the new system will be informed by benzodiazepines; and whether methadone will play responses to our consultation A new value-based approach any part in that treatment. [HL6880] to the pricing of branded medicines. Potential administration costs will be assessed as work to develop The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, the new system progresses. Department of Health (Earl Howe): The reports The Government have no intention of changing the commissioned to gather evidence on addiction to approach to prescription charges for medicines because medicines will be published over the next couple of of the proposals for value-based pricing. months. Following publication, we will be engaging widely with interested parties to determine the future direction of policy and service planning. Health: EEA Countries The reports will include an assessment of the provision Question of services for those addicted to medicines including benzodiazepines. Asked by Lord Laird Methadone is licensed for use in opioid dependence, To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to as an analgesic and as a cough suppressant. It is for the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 3 February clinicians to prescribe the appropriate treatment for (WA 286–7), how many United Kingdom nationals their patients based on clinical need. are listed as living in France; how many French Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath nationals are listed as living in the United Kingdom for the purpose of calculating healthcare and other To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, under costs under regulations 883/2004 and 987/2009; and their proposed medicines value-based pricing system, how the most recent annual payments by the United they intend to reduce the re-imbursement price of Kingdom to France of £203,619,890, and by France some branded medicines that are out of patent to to the United Kingdom of £6,545,165, were calculated. nearer to the price of the therapeutically equivalent [HL6934] generic. [HL6909] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, they have made of how many countries set drug Department of Health (Earl Howe): The following prices by reference to those in the United Kingdom. tables show, for the calendar years 2009 and 2010, the [HL6910] number of forms issued by the United Kingdom and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment registered in France, and the number of forms issued they have made of the impact on pharmaceutical by France and registered in the UK, for the purposes research and development funding of the influence of receiving sickness benefits in kind under Regulation the United Kingdom pharmaceutical industry has 1408/71 up until 30 April 2010, and under Regulation on prices of drugs in other countries. [HL6911] 883/2004 from 1 May 2010. These forms relate to state WA 247 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 248 pensioners and their dependents (form E121), posted expert skills, such as senior finance managers and workers and their dependents, and early retirees (form people with commissioning expertise and experience. E106) and the dependents of workers where they live A pathfinder learning network has been established to in different member states (form E109). support the development of emerging consortia and to Number of UK issued forms registered in France facilitate shared learning during the transition. The Calendar Year E1061 E1092 E1212 National Leadership Council is also offering GP leaders of pathfinders and their teams access to a number of 2009 10034 670 45083 development tools, including personal and team coaching. 2010 6914 440 45019

Number of forms issued by France and registered in the UK Health: Orthopaedics Calendar year E1061 E1092 E1212 Question 2009 41 1 109 Asked by Lord Black of Brentwood 2010 26 0 104 To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to 1. Data for registered E106s in both tables are correct as at 15 February 2011 the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 20 January 2. Data for registered E109s and E121s in both tables are (WA 66–7), what additional work the National correct as at 25 January 2011 Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence has been commissioned to undertake on the feasibility Payments between France and the UK were for and scope for a quality standard for fractures, verified and accepted claims, and also advance payments excluding those which occur at the head and the in accordance with the bilateral agreement between hip. [HL6995] France and the UK. The claims for state pensioners, living in the respective countries, were based on the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department number of months of healthcare multiplied by the of Health (Earl Howe): The National Institute for respective monthly average cost for the year in question. Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) has been asked Other claims made by France against the UK are to assess the feasibility and scope for a Quality Standard made on the basis of actual costs of treatment provided. on fractures, excluding those which occur at the head Other claims made by the UK against France are and the hip. This will allow for exploration of the currently calculated on a formula basis in accordance available evidence base and discussion with relevant with the bilateral agreement with France, based on parties. NICE will report on this work later in the year average daily healthcare costs and tourist numbers or and a decision on whether to refer this topic to NICE on a ratio basis. for Quality Standard development will follow. Payments made in any one year will typically relate Once a topic is referred to NICE for Quality Standard to claims for a number of previous claim years. development, it is for NICE to determine the detailed content of the standard. It does so after a public Health: European Health Insurance Card consultation and within a remit set by the Secretary of State. Details of the process that NICE uses can be Question found on its website at: www.nice.org.uk/aboutnice/ Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark qualitystandards. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many European Health Insurance Cards issued by the Department of Health are valid for use. [HL6975] Health: Pain Management Questions The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): As at 31 December 2010, Asked by Lord Luce approximately 25.5 million UK-issued European Health To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress Insurance Cards in circulation were valid for use. is being made by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence in producing guidelines in Health: GP Commissioning Groups multi-discipline pain management services; what range of skills is incorporated in their definition of Question multi-discipline pain management services; and whether Asked by Lord King of West Bromwich the latest research on newer pain mechanisms and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what training treatment options is incorporated in their advice. will be available to general practitioners to enable [HL7091] them to take up their commissioning role. [HL7070] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): The National Institute for of Health (Earl Howe): All prospective general practitioner Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) has published (GP) consortia will receive a broad range of development clinical guidelines on low back pain and the pharmacological support from their primary care trust and strategic management of neuropathic pain. The need for a health authority. This includes financial support as clinical guideline on post-operative pain relief is currently well as assigning key personnel to them who have being considered through NICE’s topic selection process. WA 249 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 250

To help local commissioners, we have asked NICE Health: Pharmacology to assess the feasibility and scope for a quality standard on pain management. Question The scope and content of NICE’s guidance is a Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath matter for NICE as an independent body, and NICE has a well developed process for assessing the significance To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures of new research and for updating its guidance as are in place to attract pharmaceutical research and necessary. development investment to the United Kingdom. Asked by Lord Luce [HL6912] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department physiotherapists, osteopaths and psychologists are of Health (Earl Howe): The Government are committed involved in integrated pain management services. to retaining the United Kingdom’s position as a global [HL7092] leader in research and development. The Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action is are focused on creating a supportive UK business being take to ascertain the variation in standards of environment for pharmaceutical companies, and Ministers pain management services in England. [HL7093] have continued dialogue with leaders in the pharmaceutical To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many industry through the Ministerial Industry Strategy multi-disciplinary pain management teams there Group. We are working with the National Health are in England; and how many are available to Service and industry to improve recruitment and start-up support children with chronic pain. [HL7095] time for clinical trials here, and we are committed to a Patent Box. In addition, life sciences, which include the pharmaceutical industry, have been identified as one Earl Howe: We do not have recent information of the key sectors in our growth review. UK Trade and centrally on standards of pain management services in Investment will continue to promote the benefits of England. Following a recommendation in the 2008 undertaking pharmaceutical research and development annual report of the previous Chief Medical Officer, investment to the UK. the department is funding a National Pain Audit, which recently completed its testing phase and will be rolled out from March 2011. Its primary purpose is to Health: Sickle Cell and Thalassaemia stimulate local action to improve the quality and Question outcomes of care by presenting comparative data about Asked by Baroness Benjamin the performance of National Health Service provider organisations. It will also provide a broad overview of Toask Her Majesty’s Government what consultation the state of provision of chronic pain services across and assessment has been undertaken to minimise England and of the extent of variations in standards. the effects of changes to the NHS budget on funding Among other information, the audit will collect and for the provision of sickle cell and thalassaemia analyse data on the number of health professionals in sufferers. [HL6988] each discipline working in each chronic pain facility. Asked by Lord Luce The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps of Health (Earl Howe): No consultation and assessment they will take to highlight centres of excellence for has been undertaken centrally. At the time of the multi-discipline pain management services in the spending review we delivered real-terms growth in United Kingdom; and whether they will ensure that funding for the next four years, and total funding will those standards are met throughout the United increase by over £10 billion in cash terms by 2014-15. Kingdom. [HL7094] The majority of that funding is currently allocated to primary care trusts and it will be for the NHS locally to determine how that funding is invested in meeting the needs of, and improving outcomes for, their patients. Earl Howe: It is for local commissioners to determine how best to meet their population’s needs for pain management services, in the light of their assessment Higher Education: Overseas Students of the standards of current services, professional and clinical guidance, and experience in other health Questions communities. From April 2012, subject to parliamentary Asked by Lord King of West Bromwich approval, it will be for the National Commissioning Board to determine what support commissioners will To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many need to discharge their responsibilities. In the meanwhile, students from (a) India, (b) Pakistan and (c) Bangladesh the long-term conditions workstream of the Quality, who entered the country to study took up their Improvement, Productivity and Prevention programme studies in 2010. [HL7072] is producing examples of best practice in delivering community-based multidisciplinary services for managing The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- long-term conditions such as chronic pain. The second Jones): The information requested is not centrally phase of the programme, due later this year, will take recorded in the format required and could be provided forward the learning from these projects. only at disproportionate cost. WA 251 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 252

Asked by Lord King of West Bromwich The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally): The margin of appreciation afforded to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Governments in the national implementation of the they are taking to inform overseas students of the convention rights is not itself defined in the convention; level of employment of students in the United it is instead to be found in the judgments of the Kingdom. European Court of Human Rights, and can vary from [HL7074] right to right, from case to case, and over time. Where appropriate in proceedings before the Court, the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Government argue for the United Kingdom to be for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): afforded a broad margin of appreciation. International students come to the United Kingdom The Government are committed to supporting and because of the high quality of our education system building on the process of court reform under way in and to obtain a British qualification. Their primary Strasbourg. As part of the reform process, the Government purpose is to study and not to take up employment. In would wish to see a strengthening of the principle of higher education, useful information is available to subsidiarity; that is, that the convention should principally students and prospective students, wherever in the be implemented at a national level. The Government world they originate, on the Unistats website at will work with other member states of the Council of unistats.direct.gov.uk/. This includes information on Europe and the Court to find ways to give further the percentage of students employed in graduate level practical effect to this principle in the convention jobs by institution and course of study. system. Asked by Lord Laird Horse Racing: Equine Mortality To ask Her Majesty’s Government what judgments Question finding a violation of the European Convention on Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Human Rights by the United Kingdom have been made by a chamber of the European Court of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Human Rights in the last five years; what were the assessment of the case for publishing comprehensive subjects involved; and which of those cases they data on equine mortality, sickness and injury in the asked to be referred under article 43 to the Grand horse racing industry. [HL6734] Chamber of the Court because they raised a serious issue affecting the interpretation or application of Lord De Mauley: The British Horseracing Authority the Convention or its protocols, or a serious issue (BHA), which is responsible for the governance and of general importance. [HL6841] regulation of horseracing in this country, already publishes annual injury and fatality data on its website. The BHA records and monitors falls and injuries sustained on racecourses and analyses information relating to fatal injuries to determine if those accidents can be prevented. This allows the BHA to take action if necessary, including implementing long-term strategies The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord and veterinary research programmes to help reduce McNally): The following table is drawn from the annual the risk of injury and death. reports of the European Court of Human Rights. For Horses are protected by the Animal Welfare Act each of the calendar years 2006 to 2010, it shows the 2006 throughout their lives, which means that their total number of judgments delivered by the European owners, and those responsible for their care, have a Court of Human Rights, whether by a Chamber or duty to protect their welfare at all times. the Grand Chamber, in cases against the United Kingdom in which it found one or more violations of the convention. Human Rights It also shows the total number of violations found against the United Kingdom for each calendar year Questions categorised by the elements of the convention. As one judgment may find multiple violations, these may add Asked by Lord Laird up to more than the number of judgments. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Between 2006 and 2010, the Government sought will consider proposing an amendment to the European referral to the Grand Chamber of the Court under Convention on Human Rights to increase the margin Section 43 in connection with five cases, which were Al of appreciation allowed to national governments. Khawaja and Tahery, Pye, Al Saadoon and Mufhdi, [HL6840] Gillan and Quinton, and Clift.

Article Violation 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

2 Right to life, deprivation of life ----- 2 Lack of effective investigation - 5 - - - 3 Prohibition of torture ----- WA 253 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 254

Article Violation 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

3 Inhuman or degrading treatment - - 1 - 2 4 Prohibition of slavery/forced labour ----- 5 Right to liberty and security 11231 6 Right to a fair trial 3 3 - 1 - 6 Length of proceedings 11121 7 No punishment without law ----- 8 Right to respect for private and family life 22325 9 Freedom of thought, conscience and religion ----- 10 Freedom of expression - - - 1 - 11 Freedom of assembly and association 1 1 - - - 12 Right to marry ----1 13 Right to an effective remedy - - 1 - 4 14 Discrimination in protection of rights 6 6 21 7 4 P 1- I Protection of property ----- P1-2Righttoeducation ----- P1-3 Right to free elections ----1 Other Articles of the Convention ----1 Total judgments finding at least one violation 10 19 27 14 14

Immigration: Deportation which are available from the Library of the House and from the Home Office’s Research, Development and Question Statistics website at: www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/ Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno immigration-asylum-stats.html. To ask Her Majesty’s Government which voluntary Q4 2010 and January 2011 figures will be available charitable organisations they work with in caring on 24 February 2011. for children facing deportation from the United Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno Kingdom. [HL7077] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Lord De Mauley: On 16 December 2010 the Government children are presently detained for immigration set out our proposals for ending the detention of purposes. [HL7076] children for immigration purposes. These were developed in consultation with a wide range of voluntary sector organisations, especially through two working groups Lord De Mauley: The latest published information chaired by the Diana, Princess of Wales Memorial shows there were five children detained, solely under Fund and Citizens UK respectively. The proposals Immigration Act powers, as at 30 September 2010. entail a fresh approach to managing the return of The Home Office publishes statistics on the number families with children who have no right to be in the of children in detention, solely under Immigration UK and we have made clear our commitment to working Act powers, on a quarterly and annual basis, which are closely with voluntary sector organisations in putting available from the Library of the House and from the them into practice, including through direct work with Home Office’s Research, Development and Statistics families where appropriate. We are currently preparing website at: www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration- for the implementation of those proposals and are asylum-stats.html. exploring how best this can be done. Q4 2010 figures, including children detained as at 31 December 2010, will be available on 24 February Immigration: Detainees 2011. Questions Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno India To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Question children were detained for immigration purposes in (a) January 2000, (b) January 2009, (c) January Asked by Lord Patten 2010, and (d) January 2011. [HL7075] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Lord De Mauley: Information on children entering the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford detention in January 2000 is not available, and figures on 9 February (HL6008), what help they are giving for January 2011 will be published on 24 February to women in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. 2011. There were 133 children who entered detention, [HL6835] solely under Immigration Act powers, in January 2009 and 93 in January 2010. Baroness Garden of Frognal: Breaking the cycle of The Home Office publishes statistics on the number poverty for the poorest women and girls in India’s of children entering detention, solely under Immigration poorest states will be a major focus of the UK’s future Act powers, on a monthly, quarterly and annual basis, aid programme in India. We will focus mainly on three WA 255 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 256 of the poorest states: Bihar, Madhya Pradesh and purchases. The Treasury specifies the monetary policy Orissa. Women in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka remit at least every 12 months, as required by the Bank have benefited from some national programmes on of England Act 1998. women’s empowerment, health, education, AIDS and tuberculosis, supported by the Department for International Development. Insolvency Act 1986 Question Inflation Asked by Lord Harrison Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Asked by Lord Myners they have made of whether to update section 233 of the Insolvency Act 1986 to include information To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment technology services, computer software and accounting they have made of the extent to which current software to reflect the prominence of that technology negative real rates of interest comply with the Bank in business operations. [HL6925] of England’s remit to target a two per cent consumer prices index inflation rate. [HL6956] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Wilcox): This Government have not carried out an Sassoon): As stated in a letter in May 1997 from the assessment as to whether Section 233 of the Insolvency then Chancellor to the Governor, the Bank has operational Act 1986 should be updated. Any move to include responsibility for setting short-term nominal interest such supplies would of course have implications for rates, or Bank Rate, to achieve the inflation target. the suppliers themselves and would need to be carefully The Governor of the Bank of England is required to considered in this context. The Government are aware write an open letter of explanation to the Chancellor of the recent campaign launched by the Association every three months that inflation is above the 2 per of Business Recovery Professionals on the subject of cent target. Open letters between the Government and termination clauses and Section 233 of the Insolvency Chancellor were published on 15 February 2011. Act 1986, and government officials will be discussing Asked by Lord Myners this issue with the main stakeholder groups in the near future to explore the level of support and the implications To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans of any change to the existing law. they have to redefine the inflation target given to the Bank of England to exclude sources of inflation which cannot be controlled by monetary policy Jobcentre Plus: Electronic Communication . [HL7098] Question Asked by Lord German Lord Sassoon: The Chancellor confirmed in the June 2010 Budget that the independent Monetary To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Policy Committee of the Bank of England will continue the Written Answer by Lord Freud on 7 February to target 2 per cent inflation, as measured by the (WA 27–8), whether they have considered using 12-month increase in the consumer prices index. text-messaging to inform JobcentrePlus customers Asked by Lord Myners of vacancies. [HL6827] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what powers the Bank of England has to affect current levels of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, inflation; and what action, if any, they plan to take Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): Jobcentre to increase its powers. [HL7140] Plus introduced an SMS text service in January 2011. The use of the application to notify customers about job opportunities will be piloted in areas of Glasgow, Lord Sassoon: The operational responsibilities of the south-west and Yorkshire and Humber during the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England March. The pilots will assess the success of this approach to maintain price stability are detailed in the Bank of and this will inform decisions on national implementation. England Act 1998. In addition, as stated in a letter in May 1997 from the then Chancellor to the Governor, the Bank has operational responsibility for setting Jobcentre Plus: Staff short-term nominal interest rates (the Bank Rate), to achieve the inflation target set by the Government. Question The framework for the Asset Purchase Facility, Asked by Lord German which enables it to be used as a monetary policy tool, was set out in the exchange of letters on 17 February To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they and 3 March 2009 between the Governor and the will place in the Library of the House a copy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The framework requires productivity targets, and accompanying guidance, the Chancellor to authorise the overall limit on asset for interviewing clients at Jobcentre Plus. [HL6697] WA 257 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 258

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Asked by Lord Laird Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): Jobcentre Plus had six national targets for the year 2010-11 To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they which focus on quality interventions, customer service, complied with article 8 of the European Convention employer engagement, job outcomes and the reduction on Human Rights with regard to the victims, children of fraud and error. However, from October 2010 this and dependent relatives who were the subject of was reduced to three, as Jobcentre Plus moved towards miscarriages of justice, including those who have establishing the new performance management framework won a first appeal or been found not guilty at trial; for 2011-12. The targets that were removed primarily and what such cases there have been since 2000. measured process rather than focusing on outcomes. [HL6838] Jobcentre Plus managers do have internal productivity benchmarks which do cover the number of customers interviewed in jobcentres, the number of claims processed The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord or average length of telephone calls. These benchmarks McNally): Article 14 (6) of the International Covenant are averages and are used alongside other management on Civil and Political Rights, which the UK has signed, data on quality and resources. sets out the circumstances in which compensation should be paid in cases of miscarriages of justice. The As we do not have any productivity targets for UK incorporated the article in domestic law through interviewing clients, there is no accompanying guidance. Section 133 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. Compensation is paid under Section 133 where a conviction is quashed at an out-of-time appeal, or Justice: Compensation following reference to the appeal court by the Criminal Questions Cases Review Commission, on the basis that a new or newly discovered fact shows beyond reasonable doubt Asked by Lord Laird that there has been a miscarriage of justice. Ministers To ask Her Majesty’s Government in how many decide whether an applicant is entitled to compensation cases in which individuals have been found to have under Section 133. For those applicants who are to been victims of miscarriages of justice, including receive compensation, it is then for an independent those who have won a first appeal or been found assessor to decide how much should be paid, based on not guilty at trial, Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution claims of loss from the applicant. It is open to an Service Inspectorate has investigated the grounds applicant to make a claim in relation to his or her own for, and the actions of, the Crown Prosecution Article 8 rights—for example, loss of family life. Section Service proceeding with those prosecutions since 133 fully meets our international obligations to pay the inception of the Miscarriages of Justice Support compensation in cases of miscarriages of justice. Service or the Miscarriages of Justice Project; and The statistics requested are not available in the whether they will place copies of any relevant reports format sought. However, the Ministry of Justice in the Library of the House. [HL6837] publication Judicial and Court Statistics 2009 can be accessed via the department’s website at: www.justice. gov.uk/publications/judicialandcourtstatistics.htm. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The role of Her Majesty’s Tables 4.7 and 4.8 give details of Crown Court disposals Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate (HMCPSI) is by verdict and table 7.7 gives details of the decisions of to enhance the quality of justice through independent the Court of Appeal Criminal Division. inspection and assessment of prosecution services and, in doing so, improve their effectiveness and efficiency. Although HMCPSI examines a range of cases as part of its normal inspection process, it does not Lloyds Banking Group investigate and report on individual cases unless, Question exceptionally, a case is referred to HMCPSI by the Attorney-General using statutory powers for matters Asked by Lord Ahmed intended for cases of general public concern. However, as a rule HMCPSI is not an investigative body. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Sassoon on 31 January HMCPSI has undertaken two recent reviews at the (WA 233), what steps they have taken to confirm request of the Law Officers. Details of these reviews that President al-Bashir or individuals or entities are outlined below: associated with him do not have US$ 9 billion in A review of the investigation and criminal proceedings bank accounts held by or known to the Lloyds relating to the Jubilee Line case (Pursuant to a Reference Banking Group. [HL7052] by the Attorney General under Section 2(l)(b) of the Crown Prosecution Inspectorate Act 2000), published June 2006. The review is available on the HMCPSI The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord website. Sassoon): Lloyds Banking Group (LBG) has assured A review to ascertain the circumstances in which HM Treasury that it has conducted its own internal Anthony Leon Peart, also known as Anthony Leon investigation into the claim that President al-Bashir Joseph came to be at liberty on 29 July 2005, published holds accounts with the group and is confident that February 2008. The review is available on the HMCPSI the group does not hold any account for Mr al-Bashir website. or any individuals or entities associated with him. The WA 259 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 260

Financial Services Authority has reviewed LBG’s internal Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool investigation report and has not raised any further concerns. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the chairman of the Medical Research Council was selected; by whom; what process was followed in his Low Value Consignment Relief or her selection; where the post was advertised; how many persons applied for the position; how many Question were short-listed for interview; how candidates were Asked by Lord Lucas appraised; what criteria were adopted for the appointment; and whether candidates’ views on To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they (a) abortion, (b) reproductive rights and reproductive or the European Commission are responsible for health, (c) embryo experimentation, and (d) stem preventing distortions of competition arising from cell research, were sought. [HL7015] the low value consignment relief regime. [HL6638] Baroness Wilcox: The position of chairman of the The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Medical Research Council was advertised in the Sunday Sassoon): Article 23 of directive 2009/132/EC, which Times on 11 September 2005 and the successful candidate provides relief from VAT for imports of negligible took up the post from 1 October 2006. The process value, does not impose a binding legal requirement to was conducted in accordance with the requirements of prevent distortion of competition in the context of the Code of the Commissioner of Public Appointments. low value consignment relief. However, member states Under the terms of the council’s royal charter, the are primarily responsible for monitoring the operation selection was made by the Secretary of State for Trade of low value consignment relief. and Industry. Seventeen applications were received with four Medical Research Council candidates invited to interview, although one subsequently withdrew. Candidates were appraised against the criteria Questions in the role and person specification published at the Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool time to assess their suitability for the role. Candidates’ views on abortion, reproductive rights and reproductive To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much health, embryo experimentation and stem cell research money they gave to the Medical Research Council were not sought as part of the selection process. in each of the past three years; and what conditions they attached to the funding. [HL7013] Mental Health The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Question for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): The Government’s allocation to the Medical Research Asked by Baroness Hollins Council (MRC) in each of the past three years is set out in the following table: To ask Her Majesty’s Government what percentage of the National Institute for Health Research research FY 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 budget was spent on mental health in the last year for which figures are available. [HL7134] £m 605.538 658.472 707.025

The MRC utilises its funding in accordance with its The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department delivery plan (see www.mrc.ac.uk/Utilities/Documentrecord of Health (Earl Howe): In 2009-10, 4.2 per cent of the /index.htm?d=MRC007642). MRC operates within this National Institute for Health Research revenue budget strategic framework but takes its own decisions on was spent on mental health research. research priorities and projects in accordance with the Haldane principle. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Ministry of Defence: Police Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government who is the chairman of the Medical Research Council; what Asked by Lord Lee of Trafford relevant specialist qualifications he or she holds; and what his or her career has been to date.[HL7014] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the anticipated impact on the Ministry of Defence Police of their plans to cut the Ministry’s civilian Baroness Wilcox: The chairman of the Medical force by a third. [HL6719] Research Council (MRC) is Sir John Chisholm, FREng, CEng, FLEE, who took up his appointment on 1 October 2006. A full account of his qualifications Lord De Mauley: A range of options for the Ministry and career details to date are published on the MRC of Defence’s future requirement for civil policing services website at www.mrc.ac.uk/About/Structure/Council/ is currently under consideration. No final decisions Chairman/index.htm. have yet been taken. WA 261 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 262

National Insurance The Department for Work and Pensions has the responsibility for the allocation of national insurance Question numbers to adults. Asked by Lord Laird The department undertakes rigorous checks on the identity of all adult national insurance number applicants. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many This involves document examination checks to ensure national insurance numbers are in existence; how the authenticity of any documentary evidence provided many were cancelled or withdrawn in the past three such as passports or foreign national identity card, years; and whether they assessed the efficacy of corroborative checks with third parties (including other checking applicants for such numbers against birth government departments) and only when it is satisfied records and arranging for their cancellation or non-issue with the identity of an individual will a number be on death registration. [HL6937] allocated. Upon the death of an individual, DWP receives The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, automatic updates from the General Register Offices Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The (GAO) of England and Wales, Scotland and Northern latest available figures (Feb 2011) show a total of Ireland on a daily basis. DWP undertakes a rigorous 83.36 million national insurance number (NINo) records matching process against the updates received from on the department’s customer information system (CIS). the GROs to ensure that DWP records are annotated These consist of: with the date of death. Any subsequent claim to 63.73 million live NINo accounts; and benefit using that NINo would be subject to close scrutiny and, if appropriate, be referred to DWP’s 19.63 million NINo accounts with a date of death Fraud Investigation Service. applied. The Department for Work and Pensions does not withdraw or cancel NINos once they have been allocated NHS: Staff except in very limited circumstances. This is because a Question NINo, even if used only for a limited period, links an individual to their national insurance contributions Asked by Lord Dubs record which may be relevant in any future claim to benefits or state pension. In the case of deceased To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many individuals, a partner may make a claim for a contributory staff are being made redundant in each London benefit, which is dependent on the contribution record primary care trust; and what is the estimated cost of of the deceased individual. those redundancies. [HL6796] A NINo would be withdrawn if it were established that a customer had been inaccurately allocated with The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, more than one number. In these circumstances the Department of Health (Earl Howe): This information NINo allocated in error is retained but is marked to is not collected centrally. The noble Lord may wish to ensure it cannot be used by any other person. contact the London Strategic Health Authority directly for estimated figures. A NINo is cancelled if it is established that an account has been created as a result of an administrative error during the NINo allocation process prior to any Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights notification to the customer. Question Figures for the past three full years are in the table: Volumes in relation to withdrawn or cancelled NINo accounts Asked by Lord Laird Year Number of cases To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to 2008 1022 the answer by Lord McNally on 24 January (Official 2009 908 Report, col. 677), whether there was a commitment 2010 1101 in the Belfast agreement to establish by legislation a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland or to seek Note: advice on the matter; and whether Northern Ireland The figures provided are from the Customer Information will be excluded from the proposed British Bill of (Live) Database in February 2011 and are subject to rounding. The figures are Management Information (MI) collected for the Rights and responsibilities and have a separate Bill purpose of managing DWP business, and therefore have not of Rights. [HL6781] been subject to the rigorous quality assurance that is applied to DWP official statistics. Baroness Garden of Frognal: The Belfast agreement states that the Northern Ireland Human Rights The majority of UK nationals receive a NINo Commission will be invited to consult and to advise automatically from HMRC shortly before their 16th on the scope for defining, in Westminster legislation, birthday. This is as a consequence of a successful rights supplementary to those in the European Convention claim to child benefit. In validating claims to child on Human Rights to reflect the particular circumstances benefit, HMRC confirms the identity of the child or of Northern Ireland, and these additional rights, together children in question, including checking birth certificates, with the ECHR, to constitute a Bill of Rights for before making an award. This includes checks against Northern Ireland. The joint declaration of 2003 also databases of lost and stolen birth certificates. states that, after consultation with the parties, the WA 263 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 264

British Government are committed to bringing forward Baroness Verma: The UK Government are placing legislation at Westminster where required to give effect women at the heart of the whole of our agenda for to rights supplementary to the ECHR to reflect the international development. All the Department for particular circumstances of Northern Ireland. International Development’s (DfID’s) programmes take Separately, the Government are committed to the account of their impact on women and girls in their establishment of a commission to investigate the creation design and implementation. DfID has supported a of a UK Bill of Rights that incorporates and builds on number of programmes that directly benefit women’s all our obligations under the European Convention on organisations and activities in Afghanistan over the Human Rights, ensures that these rights continue to past year. For example, our support to the International be enshrined in British law, and protects and extends Planned Parenthood Foundation and WOMANKIND British liberties. The Government will make a Statement Worldwide is supporting civil society organisations in to Parliament on the terms of reference of the commission Afghanistan to address the human rights and practical in due course. The Government believe that a UK Bill needs of women and girls. of Rights could be an appropriate legislative vehicle DfID has also committed £12 million from 2010-11 for any additional rights specific to Northern Ireland. to 2012-13 to the Afghanistan rural enterprise development programme, implemented by the Afghan Ministry for Rural Rehabilitation Development. The Northern Ireland: Human Rights programme has a gender equality strategy, which has Commission helped to ensure that men and women participate almost equally in project-supported activities. Question Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Police: Protest Groups have approved the creation of the post of Director Questions of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and its salary range of £58,200 to £117,800; why the Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer post of chief executive was abolished; what are the difference in duties and salary between it and To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they the director; what was the redundancy payment will address the recommendation made in 2009 by made to the last chief executive; and what reduction HM Inspectorate of Constabulary that the Association in funding has been agreed with the commission by of Chief Police Officers, the Home Office and the the Northern Ireland Office. [HL6933] National Policing Improvement Agency should agree a set of principles on the use of force that cover all Lord Shutt of Greetland: On the matter of the post circumstances of policing, especially the policing of of director of the Northern Ireland Human Rights protests. [HL6850] Commission, I refer the noble Lord to the Answers given on 16 and 29 November (Official Report, cols. Lord De Mauley: The Home Office, the Association WA 198 and WA 415). The appointment of staff is an of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and the National operational matter for the Northern Ireland Human Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) have agreed a Rights Commission, which operates independently of set of principles on the use of force that covers the government. The noble Lord may wish to write to the policing of protests. These are set out in the revised commission directly on this matter. ACPO manual on public order policing published in On the matter of funding, I refer the noble Lord to December 2010. The Home Office will continue to the Answer given on 15 December 2010 (Official Report, work with ACPO and NPIA to ensure that this position col. WA 199). The Northern Ireland Office budget, complements the principles on the police use of force including that part of the budget that supports arm’s- articulated in other areas of police guidance, training length bodies, will reduce by 25 per cent in real terms and learning where the use of force is pertinent. across the four years of the spending review period. The Northern Ireland Office is currently working with Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer all its sponsored bodies, including the Northern Ireland To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the Human Rights Commission, to agree future budget statement by HM Inspectorate of Constabulary in allocations in light of the outcomes from the spending its 2011 review that “protests escalated to include review. violence against officers on the ground and attacks on iconic buildings”, what is their assessment of Overseas Aid: Women any trend in protests becoming more violent or disruptive. [HL6851] Question Asked by Baroness D’Souza The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion Jones): The Government share the assessment of HM of the Department for International Development’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) that there has funding for projects in Afghanistan has been allocated been an increase in protest activity in size, frequency to projects to support women’s organisations and and spread across the United Kingdom. The Government activities in the past 12 months; and what are the will continue to work with the police to assess threats details of the projects so supported. [HL7162] and risks of public disorder going forward and agree WA 265 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 266 with HMIC’s assessment that the police must be ready Territories with which the United Kingdom has to adapt to swiftly changing circumstances and real-time Prisoner Transfer Agreements events. Albania France Netherlands America Georgia Nicaragua Andorra Germany Nigeria Prisoners: Methadone Anguilla Ghana Norway Antigua and Barbuda Greece Pakistan Question Armenia Grenada Panama Asked by Lord Ashcroft Australia Hong Kong Peru Austria Honduras Poland To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Azerbaijan Hungary Portugal prisoners are being prescribed methadone. [HL6874] Bahamas Iceland Russia Barbados India Romania Belgium Ireland Rwanda The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Bermuda Israel Samoa Department of Health (Earl Howe): Data are not Bolivia Italy San Marino collected centrally on the number of prisoners receiving Bosnia Herzegovina Japan Serbia methadone prescriptions. However, data are available Brazil Korea Slovakia on the combined total of substitution treatments for British Virgin Island Latvia Slovenia both methadone and buprenorphine for treating heroin Bulgaria St Laos Spain dependence in prisons. In 2009-10 there were 60,067 Canada Lesotho Sri Lanka treatments, of which 36,323 were detoxifications and Chile Libya Lucia 23,744 were longer-term maintenance treatments. The Cook Islands Liechtenstein Suriname data show the number of treatments prescribed but Costa Rica Lithuania Sweden not actual prisoner numbers. Croatia Luxembourg Switzerland Information on actual prisoner numbers receiving Cuba Macedonia Thailand methadone prescriptions is available from spot survey Cyprus Malawi Tonga data. The National Treatment Agency for Substance Czech Republic Malta Trinidad and Tobago Misuse and the Department applied to the Review of Denmark Mauritius Turkey Central Returns to collect these data last year. Data Ecuador Mexico Ukraine collection will begin shortly, and this information will Egypt Moldova Venezuela be available later in the year. Estonia Montenegro Vietnam Finland Morocco Vietnam

Prisoners: Transfers Territories that have Prisoner Transfer Agreements with the UK Questions Aruba Henderson, Ducie and Oeno Bouvet Island Montserrat Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark British Indian O.T. Peter I Island Cayman Islands Pitcairn To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Dutch Antilles Queen Maud Land Faroe Islands countries have a prisoner transfer agreement with Falkland Islands St Helena and Dependencies [HL6818] the United Kingdom. Gibraltar Sovereign Base Areas of Akratri To ask Her Majesty’s Government which countries and Dhekelia (Cyprus) have a prisoner transfer agreement with the United Kingdom. [HL6819] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Prior to 2007, the National Offender Management foreign nationals given custodial sentences in the Service did not separately record the states to which United Kingdom were transferred to another country prisoners were transferred from England and Wales to in each year from 1990 to 2010; and to which continue serving a sentence of imprisonment. The table below sets out the number of prisoners transferred countries they were transferred. [HL6820] to other countries to continue serving their sentences To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of imprisonment in the calendar years 2007, 2008, British citizens given custodial sentences abroad 2009 and 2010. were transferred to the United Kingdom in each year from 1990 to 2010; and from which countries Country 2007 2008 2009 2010 they came. [HL6821] Austria - - - 1 Australia 3 1 - 1 The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Belgium 10 5 1 2 McNally): The United Kingdom is a party to prisoner Canada - 3 - 1 transfer agreements with 108 countries and territories. Curacao - 1 - - The countries and territories with which the United Cyprus 2 - - 1 Czech --11 Kingdom has prisoner transfer agreements are listed Republic below. WA 267 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 268

Country 2007 2008 2009 2010 Country 2007 2008 2009 2010

Dutch 5---Turkey---2 Antilles USA 10 8 4 5 France 3 5 2 - Venezuela 2 6 2 - Germany 2 - 4 - Ghana - - 1 1 Italy 1 - - - Prisoner transfer arrangements are a devolved matter. Lithuania 1 - - 4 The transfer of prisoners to and from Scotland and to Macedonia - 1 - - and from Northern Ireland is a matter for the relevant Netherlands 75 42 25 24 devolved Administration. Norway 2 - - - Pakistan - - - 4 Poland 1 1 - 3 Prostitution Portugal - - - 2 Question Republic of 541 - Ireland Asked by Lord Lucas Slovenia - - 1 1 Spain 2 3 1 - To ask Her Majesty’s Government who attended Switzerland 1 1 - - the Government roundtable to develop policy on Turkey1242prostitution held on 14 February; whether other meetings of that group will be scheduled; and why the English Collective of Prostitutes was not invited. [HL7001] The table below sets out the number of prisoners transferred from a foreign jurisdiction to England and The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Wales to continue serving their sentences of imprisonment Jones): The roundtable was chaired by the Home in the last four calendar years. Secretary and also attended by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Equalities and Criminal Country 2007 2008 2009 2010 Information. A range of organisations were represented Austria - 1 - - including the police, the Crown Prosecution Service Australia 3 1 - 1 and organisations working with people involved in Belgium - - 1 1 prostitution. Other meetings of this group may be Brazil - - 1 2 scheduled to discuss future policy issues as they arise. Costa Rica - 2 2 1 The meeting was limited to a small number of Cyprus 2 2 5 5 organisations for the purposes of an initial discussion Ecuador - 1 - - on prostitution policy. These organisations provided a France - - 1 4 range of experience and perspectives. It was not possible Germany1221to invite every organisation that has experience of and Ghana - - 2 3 an interest in prostitution policy but we will seek to Grenada 1 - - 3 include all such organisations, as appropriate, in the Hong -222development of policy in this area. Kong India - 2 1 - Protection from Harassment Act 1997 Japan7833 Laos - - 1 1 Questions Luxembourg - - 1 - Asked by Baroness Howe of Idlicote Mexico - 2 - Morocco - 1 1 To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Netherlands 6 - - 1 persons in England and Wales were convicted of an Norway - - 1 1 offence under Section 2 of the Protection from Panama - 1 - 1 Harassment Act 1997 in each year since 1998. Portugal 2 - - 1 [HL6722] Republic of 92814To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Ireland persons in England and Wales were (a) imprisoned, Romania - - 1 and (b) fined, for an offence under Section 2 of the Slovakia - - - 1 Protection from Harassment Act 1997 in each year Spain 12 10 17 22 since 1998. [HL6723] South -1 - Korea The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Sweden 2 - 2 2 McNally): The number of persons found guilty at all Switzerland 1 - - - courts, and the number of persons sentenced and Thailand 4 1 4 4 given a fine, custodial sentence or other disposal under Trinidad 6228Section 2 of the Protection from Harassment Act and 1997, in England and Wales, 1998 to 2009 (latest Tobago available) is shown in the table below. WA 269 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 270

Data for 2010 are planned for publication in the spring of 2011.

Number of persons found guilty at all courts, sentenced and given a fine, custodial sentence or other disposals under Section 2(1) of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, England and Wales, 1998.2009(2)(3) Outcome 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009

Found guilty 2,221 2,753 2,933 2,806 2,864 3,020 3,348 3,635 3,768 3,745 3,931 4,365 Total 2,224 2,745 2,934 2,813 2,868 3,033 3,344 3,678 3,789 3,770 3,939 4,377 sentenced(5) of which Fine 512 577 630 572 528 579 618 547 438 403 471 489 Immediate 245 310 329 307 311 307 348 335 377 424 519 565 custody Other 1,467 1,858 1,975 1,934 2,029 2,147 2,378 2,796 2,974 2,943 2,949 3,323 disposals

(1) The following statutes were used for the corresponding falls under the FSA’s area of responsibility. Mindful of offence: the FSA’s independence, HM Treasury will consider Racially aggravated offence of harassment whether any changes should be made to this process. Religiously aggravated offence of harassment Racially or religiously aggravated offence of harassment Offence of harassment Railways: Northern Rail Franchise (2) The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to Question persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found Asked by Lord Shipley guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 8 February which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. (WA 52), what is the number of passengers forecast (3) Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are for the Northern Rail franchise in (a) 2012, accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that (b) 2014, (c) 2016, (d) 2018, and (e) 2020; what is these data have been extracted from large administrative data the earliest date between 2011 to 2020 when extra systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection rolling stock will be available for use by Northern processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account Rail; and by which year they forecast that passenger when those data are used. overcrowding on Northern Rail will fall significantly. (4) Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates’ court for April, July [HL6863] and August 2008. (5) The sentenced column may exceed those found guilty as it Earl Attlee: The Department for Transport has not may be the case that a defendant found guilty, and committed for forecast the numbers of passengers for the Northern sentence at the Crown court, may be sentenced in the following year. Rail franchise in its entirety, for the years requested. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Additional vehicles are due to be introduced to the Justice. Northern franchise by December 2011. The department has not undertaken detailed forecasting of when passenger crowding on the Northern franchise Questions for Written Answer might decline. However, bidders for the new franchise Question will be required to undertake comprehensive demand forecasting. Bids will be assessed in part on the quality Asked by Lord Myners of proposals to manage crowding. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether HM Treasury will ensure that when it requests the Financial Remploy Services Authority or another agency to write to a member answering a Question for Written Answer, Question that answer is published in the Official Report. Asked by Lord Hylton [HL6787] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to maintain or increase the level of The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord employment in Remploy factories throughout the Sassoon): Treasury Ministers ensure that the department United Kingdom. [HL6814] and its associated bodies report to Parliament in the appropriate way, according to the status of the individual entities. As was the practice under the previous The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Government, the Government currently request that for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): There are currently the Financial Services Authority (FSA) write to a around 3,000 employees in Remploy’s factories. The Member to answer any Parliamentary Question that Government confirmed in the autumn that Remploy’s WA 271 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 272 operational budget for the current five-year modernisation Schools: GCSEs plan remains protected at £555 million. The offer of voluntary redundancies to all staff working in Remploy Questions factories and central services is a decision made by Asked by Lord Quirk Remploy management to help the continuing operation of the businesses within that budget and to help ensure To ask Her Majesty’s Government what percentage all employees have meaningful work. The total number of entrants in English schools were awarded A* to of people who choose to take up this offer will not be C grades by each of the examination boards at confirmed until the exercise is complete. GCSE in (a) 1995, (b) 2000, (c) 2005, and (d) 2010. In December 2010, the Minister for Disabled People [HL6425] announced an independent review and call for evidence of the support that the Government provide to disabled The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for people who want to work. This review also covers the Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The figures requested work of Remploy and is being led by Liz Sayce, chief for 1995 and 2010 are presented in the table below. executive of the disability network RADAR. This Figures for 2000 and 2005 are only available at review provides an opportunity for trade unions, disabled disproportionate cost. people and disability organisations to submit evidence Number of GCSE examinations entered and percentage of entries to inform the development of our future strategy. This awarded grades A*-C by examination board, 1995 and 2010 call for evidence will close on 28 February. Percentage of Number of entries awarded Exam board and year GCSE entries grades A*-C Republic of Ireland: Financial Support 1995 Question NEA (Northern Examining 1,503,494 52% Asked by Lord Kilclooney Association) SEG (Southern Examining 946,004 52% To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Group) total amount of the recent bilateral loan to the MEG (Midland Examining 1,270,919 52% Republic of Ireland; how much of it has been Group) drawn; what is the interest rate; whether the interest LEAG (London and East 757,518 54% rate is open to renegotiation; and on which date the Anglian Examining Group) WJEC (Welsh Joint 44,907 50% first interest payment is due. [HL7003] Education Committee) NISEAC (Northern Ireland 77 34% The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Schools Examination Sassoon): A total of f3.227 billion is available to lend Council) to Ireland. The loan cannot be drawn until after the RSA (Royal Society of Arts 2,244 49% approval of the third quarterly review of Ireland’s Examinations Board) City and Guilds London 1,445 27% Memorandum of Understanding with the International Institute/Pitman Monetary Fund and the European Commission. The interest rate on each tranche will be at a rate set by 2010 adding a margin of 2.29 per cent to the sterling Edexcel 1,028,588 70% 7.5 year swap rate at the time of disbursement. The WJEC (Welsh Joint 273,552 68% terms of the loan cannot be amended without agreement Education Committee) from both parties. The first interest payment will be CCEA (Council for the 22,496 71% due six months after the first tranche of the loan is Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment) drawn. OCR (Oxford, Cambridge 984,942 72% and RSA Examinations) AQA (Assessment and 2,323,351 72% Royal British Legion Qualifications Alliance) Question Note: Figures for 1995 cover full GCSEs entered by pupils Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester aged 15 and for 2010 cover full GCSEs entered by pupils at the end of key stage 4. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions Asked by Lord Quirk they have had with the Royal British Legion about alleged breaches of the military covenant; and what To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many action they are taking. [HL6811] pupils in English schools were entered by each of the examination boards for the GCSE in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry (a) mathematics, (b) geography, (c) history, (d) French, of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): We are in regular and (e) German, in (1) 1995, (2) 2000, (3) 2005, and contact with the Royal British Legion across a wide (4) 2010. [HL6426] range of issues, including the Government’s commitment to rebuild the covenant. In addition, the director-general Lord Hill of Oareford: The figures requested for of the Royal British Legion is a member of the External 1995 and 2010 are presented in the table below. Figures Reference Group, which monitors the Government’s for 2000 and 2005 are available only at disproportionate work to support the Armed Forces community. cost. WA 273 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 274

Number of GCSE examinations entered in selected subjects by examination board, 1995 and 2010 Entries in Exam board and year mathematics Entries in geography Entries in history Entries in French Entries in German

1995 NEA (Northern 76,225 72,032 42,763 154,953 65,487 Examining Association) SEG (Southern 138,658 52,609 39,354 51,588 14,875 Examining Group) MEG (Midland 163,670 98,288 94,021 79,917 31,212 Examining Group) LEAG (London and 128,411 25,039 41,796 22,788 7,326 East Anglian Examining Group) WJEC (Welsh Joint 1,643 5,043 1 0 0 Education Committee) NISEAC (Northern 80000 Ireland Schools Examination Council) 2010 Edexcel 350,520 21,890 53,371 43,643 18,304 WJEC (Welsh Joint 1,425 4,492 5,918 5,765 2,226 Education Committee) CCEA (Council for 3845230 the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment) OCR (Oxford, 76,610 70,698 83,507 27,231 10,425 Cambridge and RSA Examinations) AQA (Assessment and 164,213 71,960 55,086 83,680 34,769 Qualifications Alliance)

Note: Figures for 1995 cover full GCSEs entered by pupils The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for aged 15 and for 2010 cover full GCSEs entered by pupils at the end of key stage 4. Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The following table Schools: Teachers provides the number of qualified teachers entering Question regular service in local authority maintained schools Asked by Baroness Crawley in England, March 2000-01 to March 2008-09, the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many latest information available. These figures exclude teachers were recruited between 2000 and 2010. [HL6812] academies.

Headcount of qualified teacher entrants to service in local authority maintained school1 Years: 2000-01 to 2008-09 Coverage: England Total entrants between 2000-01 to 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2008-09

Full-time Entrants to full-time teaching in the maintained schools sector Newly qualified entrants3 16,780 18,330 20,790 22,400 22,350 24,740 23,610 23,480 22,610 195,100 New to maintained sector4 7,060 7,500 6,150 5,510 7,670 6,130 5,960 7,660 7,780 61,410 Returner to maintained 7,070 8,710 7,820 7,230 6,070 6,040 6,210 4.960 5,490 59,590 sectors Total entrants 30,910 34,540 34,770 35,140 36,090 36,910 35,780 36,100 35,870 316,100 WA 275 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 276

Headcount of qualified teacher entrants to service in local authority maintained school1 Years: 2000-01 to 2008-09 Coverage: England Total entrants between 2000-01 to 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2008-09

Part-time Entrants to part-time teaching in the maintained schools sector Newly qualified entrants3 600 570 760 990 1,020 1,230 1,110 1,170 1,060 8,520 New to maintained sector4 3,720 3,680 3,770 4,170 4,390 5,330 5,240 5.630 5.810 41,730 Returner to maintained 5,520 5,550 4,910 4,960 4,440 4,790 3,970 3,330 3,380 40,870 sector5 Total entrants 9,840 9,800 9,440 10,130 9,850 11,340 10,330 10,130 10,260 91,120 Total full-time and part- time Entrants to part-time teaching in the maintained schools sector Newly qualified entrants3 17,380 18,910 21.550 23,390 23,380 25,970 24,720 24,650 23,670 203,520 New to maintained sector4 10,780 11,180 9,920 9,680 12,060 11,450 11,200 13,280 13,590 103,140 Returner to maintained 12,590 14,260 12,740 12.200 10,510 10,830 10,180 8,300 8,860 100,450 sectors5 Total entrants 40,750 44,340 44,210 45,270 45,940 48,250 46,100 46,220 46,130 407,210

Source: Database of Teacher Records social worker), other social services staff based in primary healthcare 1. 10 to 20 per cent of part-time teachers may not be included settings, occupational therapy services to older people and relevant in the figures as service details for many non-contributors to the support staff costs”. teachers’ pensions scheme are missing from the source data. In 2009-10, £2 billion was spent by councils on 2. Provisional estimates. assessment and care management. 3. Teacher qualified in the previous calendar year. 4. Teacher has no known service in the English maintained schools sector and qualified before the previous calendar year. South Wales Police 5. Teacher was not in service last year but has some previous Questions service in the English maintained schools sector. Totals may not appear to equal the sum of the component Asked by Lord Laird parts because of rounding. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will investigate the procedures and management of the South Wales Police Authority and its chief Social Care executive; and whether they will investigate the Authority’s compliance with articles 8, 10 and 13 of Question the European Convention on Human Rights. Asked by Baroness Browning [HL6853] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the average cost of a social services care assessment. Lord De Mauley: My right honourable friend the Home Secretary cannot undertake an investigation of [HL7143] South Wales Police Authority, as she has no official powers to investigate or to initiate an investigation of this nature. If the noble Lord has a particular concern, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, he should raise it with the relevant authority, such as Department of Health (Earl Howe): The NHS Information Her Majesty’s Inspector of Constabulary or the Centre for health collects data on expenditure by Independent Police Complaints Commissioner. councils with adult social services responsibilities (CASSRs) via the personal social services expenditure Asked by Lord Laird return (PSSEX1), but they are not collected at the level of detail requested. The nearest category is To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they “assessment and care management”, which is defined will ask HM Inspector of Constabulary, HM Crown as: Prosecution Service Inspectorate, the Independent “The process of receiving referrals, assessing need, defining Police Complaints Commission and the Welsh Audit eligibility and arranging for packages of care to be provided and Office to investigate the management, procedures reviewing the quality and continued relevance of that care for and efficiency of the South Wales Police Authority older people. It includes field social work costs (including hospital and its chief executive. [HL6854] WA 277 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 278

Lord De Mauley: My right honourable friend the The overall framework governing the Technology Home Secretary does not have the authority to Strategy Board is provided by the Science and Technology commission any of those organisations to conduct an Act 1965 and the Royal Charter under which it was investigation of that nature of South Wales Police established. These are supplemented by a management Authority. However, if the noble Lord has real concerns, statement and financial memorandum which establish he should raise them with the relevant authority directly. the broad framework within which the board operates. Additionally, the Technology Strategy Board is issuing Sudan a tasking framework letter each spending review period. This includes the board’s spending review settlement Question and an indication of the Government’s policies and Asked by Lord Hylton overall strategic objectives for technology and innovation over the spending review period. This tasking framework To ask Her Majesty’s Government what aid they informs the board’s strategic and delivery plans. have made available to the Beja people of north-east Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Sudan, especially to those displaced and living at Port Sudan and those suffering the effects of drought To ask Her Majesty’s Government who is the and locusts. [HL6929] chairman of the Technology Strategy Board; what relevant specialist qualifications he or she holds; Baroness Rawlings: British humanitarian support is and what his or her career has been to date.[HL7017] channelled through the Common Humanitarian Fund (CHF) which provides aid to reduce dependency, increase self-reliance and build livelihoods. In 2010 the CHF provided $12.8 million to address urgent humanitarian needs in Eastern Sudan, which covers the areas populated Baroness Wilcox: Dr Graham Spittle, VP Software by the Beja people and those displaced and living in for UK and Ireland at IBM, is Chair of the Governing Port Sudan. North-eastern Sudan experiences drought Board of the Technology Strategy Board. More almost every year in some parts of the region and the information can be obtained from the Technology droughts are of varying magnitudes. (Desert locust Strategy Board’s website at www.innovateuk.org/ infestations do pose a threat in north-eastern Sudan, aboutus/governingboard.ashx. but there has been little damage to crops from locusts Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool in the last few years. However, this is something that the CHF monitors and is able to respond to if the To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the need arises). chairman of the Technology Strategy Board was In the eastern states in 2009, the CHF helped selected; by whom; what process was followed in his improve the provision of health services, including or her selection; where the post was advertised; how immunization coverage, treatment for tuberculosis and many persons applied for the position; how many the provision of essential drugs and laboratory services. were short-listed for interview; how candidates were It also trained 100 health care staff in the management appraised; what criteria were adopted for the of acute malnutrition and infant and child feeding. appointment; and whether candidates’ views on (a) abortion, (b) reproductive rights and reproductive health, (c) embryo experimentation and (d) stem Technology Strategy Board cell research were sought. [HL7103] Questions Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much Baroness Wilcox: The position of chairman of the money they gave to the Technology Strategy Board Technology Strategy Board was advertised on the in each of the past three years; and what conditions Cabinet Office’s public appointments vacancy website they attached to the funding. [HL7016] from 28 July to 29 August 2008 and the successful candidate took up the post from 1 December 2008. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The process was conducted in accordance with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness requirements of the Code of the Commissioner of Wilcox): The Technology Strategy Board received Public Appointments (OCPA). Under the terms of the government funding of £208 million in 2008-09 and Technology Strategy Board’s royal charter, the selection £385 million in 2009-10. It is due to receive a total of was made by the Secretary of State for Innovation, £363 million in 2010-11. Universities and Skills. These figures comprise core funding from my Two applications were received and both were invited department plus co-funding received from other to interview. Candidates were appraised against the government departments for specific Technology Strategy criteria in the role and person specification published Board activities that look to support business innovation, at the time to assess their suitability for the role. such as funding for collaborative research projects, Candidates’ views on abortion, reproductive rights and focus on those opportunities which offer the and reproductive health, embryo experimentation and greatest scope for boosting UK growth and productivity stem cell research were not sought as part of the on the basis of business and academic strength. selection process. WA 279 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 280

Trees: Phytophthora of crown dieback will commence in the spring. This will monitor for signs of infection in both Japanese Questions larch plantations and in other woodlands. Asked by Lord Greaves To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the UK Trade and Investment: Central Asia £25 million five-year programme against Phytophthora pathogens commenced; how many known outbreaks Questions in Japanese larch trees there were at the time; how Asked by Viscount Waverley many there are now; and what proportion of the programme has been diverted into countering the To ask Her Majesty’s Government which markets problem in that species. [HL6966] in central Asia, including Mongolia and the south Caucasus, they have identified as priorities for investment by British businesses. [HL6654] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs The Minister of State, Department for Business, (Lord Henley): When the £25 million programme against Innovation and Skills and Foreign and Commonwealth the Phytophthora pathogens in England and Wales Office (Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint): UKTI has identified was launched on 1 April 2009, there were no records Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan as priority markets for of infected Japanese larch anywhere in the world. The the region. These are markets where UKTI is actively first reports of ill health in Japanese larch were made represented and offer the full range of UKTI services. in the south west of England during July and August Political support to UK business is available in Mongolia 2009, with laboratory confirmation of the presence of and the other central Asia and south Caucasus markets. P. ramorum later that month. A survey of woodlands UKTI is reviewing its strategy in Mongolia. in the area commenced immediately and by December 2009 the pathogen had been confirmed at five sites Asked by Viscount Waverley distributed across Cornwall, Devon and Somerset. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much The surveillance was extended the following spring public money is allocated by UK Trade and Investment once needles had flushed. There are now 129 woodland (UKTI) to each of the markets in central Asia, sites in Great Britain with confirmed, or assumed, including Mongolia and the south Caucasus; how infected Japanese larch trees. Further surveillance and many personnel in UKTI are based in (a) the resurvey will commence once trees have come back United Kingdom working on those markets, and into needle this spring. (b) each of those countries; and how they measure In the current financial year, about 26 per cent of the effectiveness of UKTI in those markets.[HL6655] the annual programme fund (£980,000) has been diverted to investigate and support action on the disease in larch. This includes assistance to woodland owners in Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint: Responsibility for clearing infected Japanese larch trees in England and these markets in UKTI in London is held by teams Wales; aerial surveys to identify the extent of infection; which cover a number of other markets and sectors. A diagnostic testing of samples in the laboratory; and proportion of their time is devoted to work on these diversion of some staff time to provide specialist markets and is dependent upon demand. advice for the larch situation. There are UKTI teams in Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan. Asked by Lord Greaves The resource allocated to each market is Kazakhstan: 5.10 full-time equivalent staff, and Azerbaijan: 2.07 full- To ask Her Majesty’s Government what contingency time equivalent staff. plans they have to deal with any further species In the other south Caucasus and central Asia markets, jump of Phytophthora ramorum of a similar nature lobbying and political support on behalf of UK to that which occurred in Japanese larch plantations companies is carried out by the head of mission on a which might affect large numbers of trees. [HL6967] case by-case-basis. The effectiveness of UKTI in Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan is measured as part of UKTI’s performance Lord Henley: The Forestry Commission, which is impact monitoring survey (PIMS). This independent working closely with the Food and Environment Research evaluation reports the value that UKTI trade services Agency to address the threats from two Phytophthora deliver for UK business customers in global markets pathogens, has put in place an Outbreak Management including Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan. UKTI is reviewing Team. This is in place to monitor the situation and to its strategy for Mongolia. keep under review the disease management strategy Asked by Viscount Waverley to deal with tree infection and includes representation from the private sector. The pathogens have a wide To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the host range but Forest Research scientists, who advise role of trade and industry councils; which countries the Outbreak Management Team, are alert to the in central Asia, including Mongolia and the south possibility of a further species jump and are engaged Caucasus, have bilateral trade and industry councils in research into species’ susceptibility and resistance. with the United Kingdom; how much public money A further programme of aerial surveys to detect signs they receive; how many officials in the United Kingdom WA 281 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 282

work on them; how many times they met in each Caucasus, to promote exports; and whether a Minister year of the past four years; and whether they will has travelled to Kazakhstan to negotiate a publish the report of each council’s latest meeting. memorandum of understanding on trade similar to [HL6657] those signed by France and Germany, in response to the Kazakhstan foreign minister’s comments Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint: There are three such about the United Kingdom taking up trade trade and industry councils: with Kazakhstan (KBTIC), opportunities in Kazakhstan. [HL6659] Uzbekistan (UBTIC) and Turkmenistan (TUKTIC). An Azerbaijan council has not met since 2002; instead a self-standing business council now exists. These councils’ Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint: There have been no overall aim is to develop strategies that directly support recent visits to central Asia, south Caucasus or Mongolia the efforts of firms to win business and maximise by Ministers specifically to promote trade and investment, investment opportunities. although all embassies are looking closely at commercial There are differing arrangements for Kazakhstan opportunities and how they can support British business. because UKTI has dedicated resources in that market Ministers take every opportunity in multilateral fora and is able to support KBTIC directly. In 2010-11 the and in other visits to support UK business. amount spent on KBTIC was £9,000 and on UBTIC The Deputy Prime Minister, accompanied by the was £2,000. TUKTIC was initiated by business with Minister for Europe, visited Astana in Kazakhstan for the support of HM ambassador in Ashgabat but does the OSCE summit in December 2010. This provided a not receive specific UKTI support. There are no officials range of opportunities to promote British business. in the UK dedicated to working on trade and industry The then Minister for Energy in the previous Government councils but they fall within the work scope of UKTI’s visited Turkmenistan in early 2010 to promote UK Russia, Turkey, central Asia and south Caucasus unit expertise in the oil and gas sector. which comprises 5.7 officials. For the south Caucasus, the Minister for Europe Meetings are held annually and alternate between took a trade mission to Azerbaijan in the autumn of London and the partner capital. KBTIC met in London 2010 to look at opportunities beyond the energy sector. in July 2008 and 2010 and in Astana in 2009. UBTIC The UK does not have a general trade MoU with met in London in November 2007 and 2009 and in Kazakhstan. However, the Kazakh British Trade and Tashkent in December 2008 and 2010. TUKTIC first Industry Council (KBTIC) operates under a MoU met in September 2010 in Ashgabat. concluded in 1994. KBTIC is led by the private sector It is for the individual councils to decide whether and an action plan in the financial services, education, and how to publish their reports. The UKTI is reviewing mining and minerals and nuclear sectors was agreed its strategy for Mongolia. by the two sides in November 2010. This will be taken forward in the summer when the council next meets. Asked by Viscount Waverley We are keen to develop our bilateral relationship with To ask Her Majesty’s Government which sectors Kazakhstan further and when an appropriate opportunity UK Trade and Investment promotes as offering occurs, we will explore a trade MoU. opportunities for United Kingdom businesses in UKTI is reviewing the position in Mongolia. each of the countries in central Asia, including Mongolia and the south Caucasus. [HL6658]

Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint: There are full UKTI UK-EU Trade services provided in Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan. In Questions the other countries in central Asia, including Mongolia and the south Caucasus, political support is available Asked by Lord Fearn to UK businesses. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the The key sector offering opportunities for UK businesses United Kingdom’s ten main export markets; and in Azerbaijan is energy. There are also significant how many of those are in the European Union. opportunities for British business in the financial services, [HL7036] infrastructure, retail, education and construction sectors. For Kazakhstan the opportunities identified include: oil and gas, metals, minerals and mining, financial The Minister of State, Department for Business, services, vocational education and skills development Innovation and Skills and Foreign and Commonwealth and nuclear industries. Office (Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint): In 2010, the In Mongolia, UKTI is aware of growing opportunities UK’s top 10 export markets for goods were the United in advanced engineering, minerals, mining, financial States of America, Germany, the Netherlands, France, and professional services. UKTI is reviewing its strategy the Republic of Ireland, Belgium, Spain, Italy, China, for this market. and Sweden. Eight of these are members of the European Union. Asked by Viscount Waverley In 2009, the UK’s top ten export markets for services To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the were the USA, Germany, the Netherlands, France, Prime Minister or other ministers have visited countries Ireland, Switzerland, Spain, Italy, Japan, and Australia. in central Asia, including Mongolia and the south Six of these are members of the European Union. WA 283 Written Answers[28 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 284

Asked by Lord Fearn Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to value of all exports in goods and services from the the Written Answer by Baroness Neville-Jones on United Kingdom to the European Union. [HL7037] 10 January (WA 423), why it would be inappropriate to comment on the details of Taimour Abdulwahab al-Abdaly’s activities in relation to the national Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint: In 2009, UK exports origin of his passport or passports and visas; when of goods to the European Union were worth about they will permit that information to be made public; £124 billion on a balance-of-payments basis, and exports and what social security benefits were being paid to of services about £66 billion, to give a total of £190 billion. him before his death. [HL6936] In 2010, UK exports of goods to the European Union were worth about £142 billion. Exports of services to the EU were worth about £49 billion in the Baroness Neville-Jones: The Government cannot first three quarters of 2010; an initial estimate of comment on individual immigration matters unless full-year figures is due to be published on 29 March. the subject themselves has made this information public. In any case, given the subject on this occasion is a matter of ongoing investigation by the Swedish authorities, Visas it would be inappropriate for the Government to comment. As for the issue of Taimour Abdulwahab al-Abdaly’s Questions social security benefits, a deceased customer’s benefit Asked by Lord Laird details will be released only to the executor of the estate, or a person so authorised by the executor or, To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to where appropriate, a close relative. the Written Answer by Baroness Neville-Jones on 3 December 2010 (WA 506), whether employers can bring in an unlimited number of non-European Winter Fuel Payments Economic Area workers for up to a year using intra-company transfer visas if their earnings are Question between £24,000 and £40,000 per annum; what is Asked by Lord Laird the effect on the economy of allowing such migrants to compete with unemployed workers in the United To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Kingdom; and why such temporary posts require the Written Answer by Lord Freud on 2 February filling. [HL6784] (WA 280), why winter fuel payments are paid to persons residing in warm countries outside the The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- European Economic Area (EEA) and not subject Jones): We have exempted intra-company transfer visas to European Union law; how many such people from our annual limit in response to views expressed receive the payments outside EEA countries; and in our consultation. Salary thresholds are not the only what is the annual cost. [HL6935] condition attached to the intra-company transfer route. For example, transferees who are filling posts must The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, have at least 12 months’ previous experience with the Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): Winter company; the post must be on the list of graduate level Fuel Payments are paid to former UK residents living occupations; and an intra-company transferee will not in the European Economic Area and Switzerland if be able to return with 12 months of the expiry of his they qualified for a payment before leaving the UK. previous leave. This ensures that the route is used only Winter Fuel Payments may be made to people to meet business needs for temporary posts that require living outside the European Economic Area, if a established company knowledge and experience, not person was eligible during the qualifying week but for posts that could be filled by a new recruit from the subsequently moved to a non-European Economic UK. It is for sponsoring employers to determine why Area country.Such individuals would still receive payment such posts require filling. for that year but there would be no continuing entitlement. Asked by Lord Fellowes In 2009-10, the last year for which figures are available, fewer than 500 payments were made to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment people living outside the European Economic Area or they have made of the impact on overseas students Switzerland. Expenditure data for these payments is studying in the United Kingdom of the changes in not available. visa policy proposed by the UK Border Agency, with particular reference to the Tier 1 post-study work visa and the Tier 4 student visa. [HL6804] World Book Day Baroness Neville-Jones: A consultation on the student Question immigration system closed on 31 January. It sought Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark the views of all respondents on the effect of the proposals. The results and an impact assessment will To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans be published in due course. they have to support World Book Day. [HL6971] WA 285 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 286

Baroness Rawlings: The Government support World breakfast, lunch and an evening meal. They offer a Book Day’s aim of encouraging children to explore multi-choice, pre-select menu that includes healthy the pleasures of books and reading. The promotion of options for both lunch and evening meals. The young literacy and the love of reading remain central to the people are free to choose from a selection of meal purpose of the modern public library service, and options which encompass the religious, cultural, medical events to celebrate World Book Day will be taking and lifestyle choices of individuals. Planned menus are place in libraries across the country. consistent with recommendations on nutritional and energy intake made by the Committee on Medical Aspects of Food Policy and government initiatives on Young Offenders: Diet eating a healthy diet. Question Educating all offenders, including young people, to Asked by The Earl of Listowel eat a more healthy diet is key. Increasingly the National Offender Management Service is adopting a multi- To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans disciplinary approach and working with the Department they have to improve the diet of children in young of Health, the Food Standards Agency and others to offenders’ institutions. [HL6648] encourage individuals to eat more healthily. The individual clinical needs of offenders are assessed The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord by medical officers. Any additional necessary nutritional McNally): Youngoffender institutions in England and supplements would be given on the authority of the Wales provide offenders with three meals a day: normally establishment medical practitioner. Monday 28 February 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. ECOFIN ...... 87 Inland Waterways ...... 98

Employment: Sickness Absence...... 89 Ministry of Defence: Votes A Annual Estimates...... 99 Northern Ireland: Robert Hamill Inquiry ...... 100 Finance: Regulation...... 90 Railways: High Speed Rail...... 100 Fixed-Term Parliaments Bill [HL]...... 91 Railways: Local and Regional Services ...... 102 Health: Personality Disorders...... 91 Rural Development...... 103

Housing: Social Housing ...... 92 Terrorism: Finance...... 104

Immigration...... 92 Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 106

Monday 28 February 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Africa: Landmines ...... 203 Bribery Act 2010...... 216

Agriculture: Livestock Standards...... 203 Climate Change ...... 216

Airports ...... 203 Criminal Justice: Compensation ...... 216

Airports: Birmingham ...... 204 Education ...... 217

Anti-Semitism...... 204 Embryology ...... 218

Armed Forces: Accommodation ...... 205 Energy: Fuel Poverty...... 220

Armed Forces: Aircraft...... 206 Energy: Fuel VAT ...... 221

Armed Forces: Royal Marines ...... 206 Energy: Generation Capacity...... 222

Armed Forces: Under-18s...... 207 Energy: Green Growth...... 222 EU: Common Fisheries Policy...... 224 Asylum Seekers: Funding ...... 208 EU: Emissions ...... 224 Aviation: Passenger Duty...... 209 EU: Galileo Satellite System ...... 225 Bank of England ...... 209 EU: Insurance...... 226 Banking ...... 210 European Gendarmerie Force...... 226 Banking: Bonuses ...... 210 Falkland Islands: Minefields...... 226 Banking: Iceland...... 211 Finance: Investors...... 227 Bankruptcy...... 211 Finance: Retail Distribution Review ...... 227 Banks: Green Investment Bank...... 212 Flooding: Insurance...... 228 Banks: Lending...... 212 Fluoridation ...... 228 Barnett Formula ...... 214 Forestry ...... 229 Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council ...... 214 Forestry Commission...... 229 Col. No. Col. No. Freedom of Information Act 2000...... 240 Medical Research Council ...... 259

Government Departments: Expenditure ...... 241 Mental Health ...... 260

Government Departments: Office Supplies...... 241 Ministry of Defence: Police ...... 260

Government Departments: Staff...... 242 National Insurance ...... 261

Government: Ministerial Visits ...... 242 NHS: Staff ...... 262

Government: Overseas Business Interests ...... 242 Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights ...... 262

Gulf War Illnesses ...... 243 Northern Ireland: Human Rights Commission...... 263

Health: Diabetes ...... 243 Overseas Aid: Women...... 263

Health: Diabetic Retinopathy ...... 244 Police: Protest Groups ...... 264

Health: Drugs ...... 245 Prisoners: Methadone...... 265

Health: EEA Countries...... 246 Prisoners: Transfers ...... 265

Health: European Health Insurance Card...... 247 Prostitution...... 268

Health: GP Commissioning Groups ...... 247 Protection from Harassment Act 1997...... 268

Health: Orthopaedics...... 248 Questions for Written Answer...... 269

Health: Pain Management ...... 248 Railways: Northern Rail Franchise ...... 270

Health: Pharmacology ...... 250 Remploy ...... 270 Republic of Ireland: Financial Support ...... 271 Health: Sickle Cell and Thalassaemia ...... 250 Royal British Legion ...... 271 Higher Education: Overseas Students...... 250 Schools: GCSEs...... 272 Horse Racing: Equine Mortality...... 251 Schools: Teachers...... 273 Human Rights ...... 251 Social Care...... 275 Immigration: Deportation ...... 253 South Wales Police...... 276 Immigration: Detainees ...... 253 Sudan...... 277 India ...... 254 Technology Strategy Board...... 277 Inflation...... 255 Trees: Phytophthora...... 279 Insolvency Act 1986...... 256 UK Trade and Investment: Central Asia...... 280 Jobcentre Plus: Electronic Communication...... 256 UK-EU Trade...... 282

Jobcentre Plus: Staff...... 256 Visas ...... 283

Justice: Compensation ...... 257 Winter Fuel Payments...... 284

Lloyds Banking Group ...... 258 World Book Day...... 284

Low Value Consignment Relief...... 259 Young Offenders: Diet ...... 285 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL5934] ...... 210 [HL6426] ...... 272

[HL6202] ...... 217 [HL6535] ...... 204

[HL6222] ...... 225 [HL6591] ...... 211

[HL6288] ...... 203 [HL6601] ...... 213

[HL6425] ...... 272 [HL6602] ...... 213 Col. No. Col. No. [HL6603] ...... 213 [HL6796] ...... 262

[HL6605] ...... 239 [HL6799] ...... 206

[HL6606] ...... 239 [HL6804] ...... 283

[HL6631] ...... 226 [HL6805] ...... 236

[HL6632] ...... 227 [HL6811] ...... 271

[HL6638] ...... 259 [HL6812] ...... 273

[HL6648] ...... 285 [HL6814] ...... 270

[HL6654] ...... 280 [HL6815] ...... 207

[HL6655] ...... 280 [HL6816] ...... 207

[HL6657] ...... 281 [HL6817] ...... 208

[HL6658] ...... 281 [HL6818] ...... 265

[HL6659] ...... 282 [HL6819] ...... 265

[HL6660] ...... 211 [HL6820] ...... 265

[HL6661] ...... 213 [HL6821] ...... 265

[HL6667] ...... 214 [HL6827] ...... 256

[HL6670] ...... 244 [HL6835] ...... 254

[HL6690] ...... 241 [HL6837] ...... 257

[HL6697] ...... 256 [HL6838] ...... 258

[HL6700] ...... 204 [HL6840] ...... 251

[HL6701] ...... 226 [HL6841] ...... 252

[HL6706] ...... 222 [HL6849] ...... 243

[HL6719] ...... 260 [HL6850] ...... 264

[HL6722] ...... 268 [HL6851] ...... 264

[HL6723] ...... 268 [HL6853] ...... 276

[HL6730] ...... 229 [HL6854] ...... 276

[HL6734] ...... 251 [HL6863] ...... 270

[HL6735] ...... 203 [HL6874] ...... 265

[HL6747] ...... 205 [HL6878] ...... 245

[HL6748] ...... 205 [HL6879] ...... 245

[HL6749] ...... 205 [HL6880] ...... 245

[HL6750] ...... 205 [HL6881] ...... 216

[HL6751] ...... 205 [HL6888] ...... 239

[HL6752] ...... 216 [HL6889] ...... 240

[HL6781] ...... 262 [HL6890] ...... 237

[HL6783] ...... 221 [HL6892] ...... 222

[HL6784] ...... 283 [HL6893] ...... 223

[HL6787] ...... 269 [HL6894] ...... 223

[HL6790] ...... 224 [HL6895] ...... 212 Col. No. Col. No. [HL6909] ...... 245 [HL6972] ...... 243

[HL6910] ...... 245 [HL6973] ...... 203

[HL6911] ...... 245 [HL6975] ...... 247

[HL6912] ...... 250 [HL6976] ...... 240

[HL6913] ...... 246 [HL6978] ...... 242

[HL6914] ...... 246 [HL6979] ...... 219

[HL6915] ...... 209 [HL6980] ...... 219

[HL6916] ...... 211 [HL6981] ...... 220

[HL6917] ...... 227 [HL6982] ...... 220

[HL6918] ...... 209 [HL6983] ...... 214

[HL6919] ...... 208 [HL6984] ...... 215

[HL6920] ...... 208 [HL6988] ...... 250

[HL6925] ...... 256 [HL6995] ...... 248

[HL6926] ...... 211 [HL6998] ...... 228

[HL6929] ...... 277 [HL6999] ...... 228

[HL6933] ...... 263 [HL7000] ...... 229

[HL6934] ...... 246 [HL7001] ...... 268

[HL6935] ...... 284 [HL7003] ...... 271

[HL6936] ...... 284 [HL7006] ...... 224

[HL6937] ...... 261 [HL7011] ...... 241

[HL6938] ...... 220 [HL7012] ...... 215

[HL6939] ...... 241 [HL7013] ...... 259

[HL6940] ...... 241 [HL7014] ...... 259

[HL6945] ...... 218 [HL7015] ...... 260

[HL6946] ...... 219 [HL7016] ...... 277

[HL6950] ...... 246 [HL7017] ...... 278

[HL6956] ...... 255 [HL7031] ...... 244

[HL6957] ...... 243 [HL7032] ...... 244

[HL6960] ...... 216 [HL7034] ...... 239

[HL6961] ...... 217 [HL7036] ...... 282

[HL6962] ...... 217 [HL7037] ...... 283

[HL6963] ...... 217 [HL7039] ...... 227

[HL6964] ...... 212 [HL7040] ...... 228

[HL6965] ...... 240 [HL7043] ...... 242

[HL6966] ...... 279 [HL7046] ...... 209

[HL6967] ...... 279 [HL7047] ...... 209

[HL6970] ...... 229 [HL7052] ...... 258

[HL6971] ...... 284 [HL7070] ...... 247 Col. No. Col. No. [HL7072] ...... 250 [HL7097] ...... 210

[HL7074] ...... 251 [HL7098] ...... 255

[HL7075] ...... 253 [HL7102] ...... 206

[HL7076] ...... 254 [HL7103] ...... 278

[HL7077] ...... 253 [HL7118] ...... 206

[HL7091] ...... 248 [HL7134] ...... 260

[HL7092] ...... 249 [HL7138] ...... 226

[HL7093] ...... 249 [HL7139] ...... 228

[HL7094] ...... 249 [HL7140] ...... 255

[HL7095] ...... 249 [HL7143] ...... 275

[HL7096] ...... 212 [HL7162] ...... 263 Volume 725 Monday No. 115 28 February 2011

CONTENTS

Monday 28 February 2011 Questions Independent Commission on Banking...... 789 Prisons and Young Offender Institutions: Education and Training...... 791 Child Trust Fund ...... 793 Local Government: Big Society ...... 795 Public Bodies Bill [HL] Committee (7th Day)...... 797 Libya and the Middle East Statement...... 834 Public Bodies Bill [HL] Committee (7th Day) (Continued) ...... 847 Israel Question for Short Debate ...... 865 Public Bodies Bill [HL] Committee (7th Day) (Continued) ...... 881 Grand Committee National Insurance Contributions Bill Committee...... GC 77 Written Statements...... WS 87 Written Answers...... WA 203