Vol. 805 Monday No. 97 27 July 2020

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Questions English Language Learning ...... 1 Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Department for International Development: Merger...... 5 Terezin Declaration ...... 9 Probate Service...... 12 Covid-19: Response Statement...... 16 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill Second Reading...... 34 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2020-07-27

In Hybrid sittings, [V] after a Member’s name indicates that they contributed by video call.

The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour Lab Co-op Labour and Co-operative Party LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2020, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT PRINCIPAL OFFICERS OF STATE THE CABINET

PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY,MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE AND MINISTER FOR THE UNION— The Rt Hon. , MP CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARYOF STATE FOR FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRSAND FIRST SECRETARYOF STATE—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT—The Rt Hon. , MP MINISTER FOR THE AND CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER—The Rt Hon. , MP AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR JUSTICE—The Rt Hon. Buckland, QC, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR BUSINESS,ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL TRADE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE, AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WORK AND PENSIONS—The Rt Hon. Dr Thérèse Coffey, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EDUCATION—The Rt Hon. , CBE, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENVIRONMENT,FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HOUSING,COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR TRANSPORT—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR NORTHERN IRELAND—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR —The Rt Hon. , MP LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND —The Rt Hon. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DIGITAL,CULTURE,MEDIA AND SPORT—The Rt Hon. , CBE, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—The Rt Hon. Anne-Marie Trevelyan, MP MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO—The Rt Hon. , MP ALSO ATTENDS CABINET CHIEF SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY—The Rt Hon. , MP LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS—The Rt Hon. Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY AND CHIEF WHIP—The Rt Hon. Mark Spencer, MP ATTORNEY-GENERAL—The Rt Hon. Suella Braveran, QC, MP DEPARTMENTS OF STATE AND MINISTERS Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Alok Sharma, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Minister for Investment) § The Rt Hon. , MP (Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Nadhim Zahawi, MP (Minister for Business and Industry) Amanda Solloway, MP (Minister for Science, Research and Innovation) Paul Scully, MP (Minister for Small Business, Consumers and Labour Markets) Lord Callanan (Minister for Climate Change and Corporate Responsibility) Cabinet Office— PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY,MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE AND MINISTER FOR THE UNION— The Rt Hon. Boris Johnson, MP CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER AND MINISTER FOR THE CABINET OFFICE—The Rt Hon. Michael Gove, MP LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS—The Rt Hon. Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND LORD PRIVY SEAL—The Rt Hon. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park —The Rt Hon. , MP § MINISTERS OF STATE— , MP Lord Agnew of Oulton, DL § Lord True, CBE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO—The Rt Hon. Amanda Milling, MP PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARIES— Julia Lopez, MP Johnny Mercer, MP (Minister for Defence People and Veterans) § ii

Defence— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Ben Wallace, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Jeremy Quin, MP (Minister for Defence Procurement) Baroness Goldie, DL PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP (Minister for the Armed Forces) Johnny Mercer, MP (Minister for Defence People and Veterans) § Digital, Culture, Media and Sport— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Oliver Dowden, CBE, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Caroline Dinenage, MP (Minister for Digital and Culture) The Rt Hon. , OBE, MP (Minister for Media and Data) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Matt Warman, MP (Minister for Digital Infrastructure) Nigel Huddleston, MP (Minister for Sport, Tourism and Heritage) § Baroness Barran, MBE (Minister for Civil Society and DCMS) Education— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Gavin Williamson, CBE, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— , MP (Minister for Universities) The Rt Hon. Nick Gibb, MP (Minister for School Standards) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP (Minister for Children and Families) Gillian Keegan, MP (Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills) Baroness Berridge (Minister for the School System) § Environment, Food and Rural Affairs— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. George Eustice, MP MINISTER OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Minister for the Pacific and the Environment) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Minister for Rural Affairs and Biosecurity) Victoria Prentis, MP Foreign and Commonwealth Office— SECRETARY OF STATE AND FIRST SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Dominic Raab, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. , MP (Minister for the Middle East and North Africa) § The Rt Hon. Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Minister for the Pacific and the Environment) § Nigel Adams, MP (Minister for Asia) § Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Minister for South Asia and the Commonwealth) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP (Minister for Africa) § Wendy Morton, MP (Minister for European Neighbourhood and the Americas) § Baroness Sugg, CBE (Minister for the Overseas Territories and Sustainable Development, and Prime Minister’s Special Envoy for Girls’ Education) § Health and Social Care— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Matt Hancock, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Edward Argar, MP (Minister for Health) , MP (Minister for Care) , MP (Minister for Patient Safety, Suicide Prevention and Mental Health) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP (Minister for Prevention, Public Health and Primary Care) Lord Bethell (Minister for Innovation) Home Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Priti Patel, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. , MP (Minister for Security) Kit Malthouse, MP (Minister for Crime and Policing) § Baroness Williams of Trafford Lord Greenhalgh § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Victoria Atkins, MP (Minister for Safeguarding) Kevin Foster, MP (Minister for Future Borders and Immigration) Chris Philp, MP (Minister for Immigration Compliance and the Courts) § iii

Housing, Communities and Local Government— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Robert Jenrick, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Simon Clarke, MP (Minister for Regional Growth and Local Government) The Rt Hon. Christopher Pincher, MP (Minister for Housing) Lord Greenhalgh § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—, MP (Minister for Rough Sleeping and Housing) International Development— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Anne-Marie Trevelyan, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. James Cleverly, MP (Minister for the Middle East and North Africa) § The Rt Hon. Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Minister for the Pacific and the Environment) § Nigel Adams, MP (Minister for Asia) § Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Minister for South Asia and the Commonwealth) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— James Duddridge, MP (Minister for Africa) § Wendy Morton, MP (Minister for European Neighbourhood and the Americas) § Baroness Sugg, CBE (Minister for the Overseas Territories and Sustainable Development, and Prime Minister’s Special Envoy for Girls’ Education) § International Trade— SECRETARY OF STATE,PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. , MP (Minister for Trade Policy) Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Minister for Investment) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Graham Stuart, MP (Minister for Exports) § Ranil Jayawardena, MP (Minister for International Trade) , MP (Minister for Equalities) § Baroness Berridge (Minister for Women) § Justice— LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. , QC, MP ADVOCATE-GENERAL FOR SCOTLANDAND MINISTRY OF JUSTICE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE LORDS—The Rt Hon. Lord Keen of Elie, QC MINISTERS OF STATE— , QC, MP Kit Malthouse, MP (Minister for Crime and Policing) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP § Chris Philp, MP (Minister for Immigration Compliance and the Courts) § Law Officers— ATTORNEY-GENERAL—The Rt Hon. , QC, MP SOLICITOR-GENERAL—The Rt Hon. Michael Ellis, QC, MP ADVOCATE-GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND AND MINISTRY OF JUSTICE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE LORDS—The Rt Hon. Lord Keen of Elie, QC Leader of the House of Commons— LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS—The Rt Hon. Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP Leader of the House of Lords— LORD PRIVY SEAL AND LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS—The Rt Hon. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park DEPUTY LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS—The Rt Hon. Earl Howe Northern Ireland Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Brandon Lewis, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Robin Walker, MP Scotland Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Alister Jack, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIESOF STATE— Iain Stewart, MP (Minister for Scotland) David Duguid, MP § Transport— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Grant Shapps, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Chris Heaton-Harris, MP Andrew Stephenson, MP iv

PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Baroness Vere of Norbiton Rachel Maclean, MP Kelly Tolhurst, MP Treasury— CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt Hon. Rishi Sunak, MP CHIEF SECRETARY—The Rt Hon. Stephen Barclay, MP FINANCIAL SECRETARY—The Rt Hon. , MP MINISTER OF STATE—Lord Agnew of Oulton, DL § PAYMASTER GENERAL—The Rt Hon. Penny Mordaunt, MP § ECONOMIC SECRETARY—, MP EXCHEQUER SECRETARY—Kemi Badenoch, MP § PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY AND CHIEF WHIP—The Rt Hon. Mark Spencer, MP — James Morris, MP , MP David Duguid, MP § David Rutley, MP Maggie Throup, MP , MP ASSISTANT WHIPS— Leo Docherty, MP David T. C. Davies, MP § Alex Chalk, MP § Tom Pursglove, MP Maria Caulfield, MP Nigel Huddleston, MP § Eddie Hughes, MP UK Export Finance— SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL TRADE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Graham Stuart, MP (Minister for Exports) § Wales Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Simon Hart, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—David T.C. Davies, MP § Work and Pensions— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Dr Thérèse Coffey, MP MINISTER OF STATE—, MP (Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Mims Davies, MP (Minister for Employment) Guy Opperman, MP (Minister for Pensions and Financial Inclusion) , MP (Minister for Welfare Delivery) Baroness Stedman-Scott, OBE, DL Her Majesty’s Household— LORD CHAMBERLAIN—The Rt Hon. Earl Peel GCVO, DL LORD STEWARD—The Earl of Dalhousie MASTER OF THE HORSE—Lord de Mauley PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY AND CHIEF WHIP—The Rt Hon. Mark Spencer, MP TREASURER AND DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP—, MP COMPTROLLER—Mike Freer, MP VICE-CHAMBERLAIN—Marcus Jones, MP Government Whips, House of Lords— CAPTAIN OF THE HONOURABLE CORPS OF GENTLEMEN-AT-ARMS AND CHIEF WHIP—The Rt Hon. Lord Ashton of Hyde CAPTAIN OF THE QUEEN’S BODYGUARD OF THE YEOMEN OF THE GUARD AND DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP—The Earl of Courtown BARONESSES IN WAITING— Baroness Penn Baroness Scott of Bybrook, OBE Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist LORDS IN WAITING— Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Viscount Younger of Leckie § Members of the Government listed under more than one department HOUSE OF LORDS

PRINCIPAL OFFICE HOLDERS AND SENIOR STAFF

LORD SPEAKER—The Rt Hon. Lord Fowler SENIOR DEPUTY SPEAKER—The Rt Hon. Lord McFall of Alcluith PRINCIPAL DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES—The Earl of Kinnoull CLERK OF THE PARLIAMENTS—E.C. Ollard CLERK ASSISTANT—S.P. Burton READING CLERK AND CLERK OF THE OVERSEAS OFFICE—J. Vaughan LADY USHER OF THE BLACK ROD AND SERJEANT-AT-ARMS—S. Clarke, OBE COMMISSIONER FOR STANDARDS—Lucy Scott-Moncrieff, CBE COUNSEL TO THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES—J. Cooper CLERK OF COMMITTEES—Dr F. P. Tudor LEGAL ADVISER TO THE EUROPEAN UNION COMMITTEE—A. Horne, T. Mitchell LEGAL ADVISER TO THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITTEE—E. Hourigan DIRECTOR OF FACILITIES—C. V. Woodall FINANCE DIRECTOR—F. Akinlose DIRECTOR OF PARLIAMENTARY DIGITAL SERVICE—T. Jessup DIRECTOR OF HUMAN RESOURCES—N. Sully CLERK OF LEGISLATION—A. Makower PRINCIPAL CLERK OF SELECT COMMITTEES—Dr C.S. Johnson REGISTRAR OF LORDS’INTERESTS—T.W.G. Wilson

27 July 2020

THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

IN THE FIRST SESSION OF THE FIFTY-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT OF THE OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND COMMENCING ON THE SEVENTEENTH DAY OF DECEMBER IN THE SIXTY-EIGHTH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF

HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II

FIFTH SERIES VOLUME DCCCIV

FIFTH VOLUME OF SESSION 2019-21

The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of House of Lords Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con): English language requirements Monday 27 July 2020 are already in place for individuals who are seeking to live, work or study in the UK. Where appropriate, all The House met in a Hybrid Sitting. applicants for settlement and citizenship are required to pass the Life in the UK test and to have an English 1 pm language speaking and listening qualification. This financial year, we are making over £7 million available Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Rochester. for programmes, in addition to the adult education budget, to support the integration of migrants through improving their English language proficiency. Arrangement of Business Announcement Baroness Verma (Con) [V]: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that local authorities have a duty to 1.05 pm ensure that, when public funds are provided for community groups and activities in areas that are predominantly The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, the populated with ethnic minority communities, they must Hybrid Sitting of the House will now begin. I should demonstrate in an annual report what active engagement remind noble Lords that, whatever might be the rule and measured outcomes have taken place in learning elsewhere, the House of Lords will be sitting until the English language as part of any funding application? Wednesday evening. The last opportunity for submitting The Covid pandemic has shone a torch on this issue in a PNQ or an Urgent Question will be by noon tomorrow my city of Leicester, where communities have failed to for answer on Wednesday. As for , some Members understand important government messaging due to are here in the Chamber respecting , language barriers. Many people in these communities while others are participating remotely, but all Members have been here for many years, but they are being will be treated equally. excluded from the available schemes and services and Oral Questions will now commence. Please can the wider opportunities just because they do not have those asking supplementary questions keep them short English language skills. and confined to two points? I ask, obviously, that Ministers’ answers are also brief. Lord Greenhalgh: My Lords, a lack of English skills presents a clear barrier to social and economic mobility. As a Government, we will always focus on the practical English Language Learning solutions that can make a real difference to people’s Question lives. However,voluntary and community sector funding by local authorities is a devolved matter and it is a matter of regret that Leicester did not want to engage 1.06 pm in our integration programme. Asked by Baroness Verma Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]: My Lords, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans the ability to speak and read English is key to social they have to make learning (1) to speak, and (2) to mobility and for social skills. Does the Minister agree read, English compulsory. that being able to write good English, with accurate 3 English Language Learning [LORDS] English Language Learning 4

[BARONESS MASSEY OF DARWEN] that schools could follow the advice of Bernard Levin, spelling and grammar, is also important and valued by one of our best modern writers of English prose: just employers? This too should be compulsory.The subtleties read George Orwell and Jane Austen and you cannot of apostrophes and English spelling can be learned go wrong? and become automatic, unless a child has specific difficulties, which of course would need other support. Lord Greenhalgh: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that excellent advice. Of course, good written Lord Greenhalgh: My Lords, we recognise that being English is very important. Being able to read will give able to read and write in English is vital to supporting people the joys of the English language. integration. That is why the ESOL for Integration Fund supports learners across 30 areas with reading Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB) [V]: I have spoken to and writing as well as speaking and listening, whereas volunteers here in the north-west of who previous programmes focused predominantly on speaking have continued teaching refugees English virtually, and listening. with the assistance of Zoom, during lockdown. They say that patchy access to and knowledge of how to use Baroness Falkner of Margravine (Non-Afl) [V]: The the necessary technology is problematic. As language Minister will know of the practice in other similar is key to integration and citizenship, will the Minister countries. He will know that both France and Germany look at ways in which the necessary technology could have a mandatory requirement for newcomers to speak be made available to those volunteer projects to sustain their respective languages fluently. The UK has myriad this vital work? exceptions from this requirement. Will he look at making it mandatory for all those wishing to remain Lord Greenhalgh: My Lords, we recognise the in the UK to have a level of proficiency such that they important and valuable contribution that volunteers can integrate adequately? make to English speakers who speak other languages. A series of resource provisions has been made available Lord Greenhalgh: My Lords, there is a requirement and 500 volunteers continue to be engaged in proving for those applying for citizenship to demonstrate that those programmes, but I will take up the point the they have appropriate English language speaking and noble Lord makes. listening qualifications and for those who wish to remain to have the requisite proficiency needed for Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op) [V]: My what they are seeking to do in this country. Lords, I refer the House to my relevant registered interests. It is important that everyone living in the Lord Popat (Con) [V]: My Lords, does the Minister United Kingdom learns to speak, read and write agree that English is key to helping communities to English. I endorse the comments of the noble Baroness, integrate in Britain and that the importance of learning Lady Verma, and my noble friend Lady Massey of English should be further emphasised as a precondition Darwen. But can the Minister say something about to granting British citizenship? the importance of preserving our other native languages here in the UK—Welsh, Irish, Ulster Scots, Gaelic, Lord Greenhalgh: My Lords, I thank my noble Scots and Cornish? friend, who has written eloquently on the subject of the importance the English language to integration. Lord Greenhalgh: My Lords, I congratulate the Those applying for citizenship are required to demonstrate noble Lord on his knowledge of Cornish. Of course, it that they have an appropriate English language speaking is important to have language skills so that you can and listening qualification. stay close to your community.

Baroness Benjamin (LD) [V]: My Lords, the ability Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD): My Lords,the Government to communicate with others from different communities have made 154 statutory instruments on the coronavirus is vital, but those who are deaf are at a disadvantage crisis, the vast majority under emergency legislation. because they cannot fully participate unless signing is How many of those have included an insistence that provided, no matter what their culture. My experience this emergency information, which is essential and life as a past patron of Friends of the Young Deaf has saving for our communities, is disseminated to those taught me the importance of signing in breaking whose first language is not English or who have English down language barriers. Do the Government plan to language or other learning barriers, as my noble friend make provision for signing available to those with Lady Benjamin highlighted? How many of those hearing impairment when they are learning English? emergency pieces of legislation have been able to be communicated clearly? Lord Greenhalgh: My Lords,there is a clear requirement under the equalities Act to provide information in a Lord Greenhalgh: My Lords, I will have to write to way that is accessible to all, including to those who the noble Lord about the precise number. Where I hard of hearing or deaf. There is a requirement in have had a choice, we have made sure the provisions place to provide that. have been made available in numerous languages.

Baroness Rawlings (Con) [V]: My Lords, I cannot Baroness Redfern (Con) [V]: My Lords,the Government believe that teaching English is not already compulsory are committed to uniting and levelling up our country, in schools in this country. Not only English should be and that means building a rich, vibrant and integrated compulsory but clear, correct English; there would be society. With the announcement in March of the new far fewer misunderstandings. Does the Minister agree £6.5 million English language programme for the 5 English Language Learning [27 JULY 2020] FCO and DfID: Merger 6

25 successful local authorities, will the Government Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB) [V]: I thank the request feedback at the end of the 12-month programme Minister for his Answer. Given that the Prime Minister so that possible future bids can support our diverse has said promoting the UK’s national interest is at the communities and help deliver even better outcomes? heart of the new department, does the Minister agree that there is a possibility of real clashes between Lord Greenhalgh: My Lords, in fact 30 local authorities projects that directly support the nation’s interests and were successful for funding, and there will be a full those that might do so in a rather more indirect way? evaluation of the programme’s outcomes and impacts. For example, there might be a choice between a big, A longitudinal study of longer-term benefits for learners grandiose project supported by the recipient Government is also planned. on the one hand and supporting poorer and more vulnerable communities,which supports the UK’snational Lord West of Spithead (Lab) [V]: My Lords, it is interests only in a rather indirect way. What mechanism difficult to overestimate how important it is for an will there be in the new department to ensure that the individual in this country to read and speak English. voices of the poorest and most vulnerable communities The dreadful manslaughter of Police Constable Andrew are heard when these kinds of clashes arise? Harper throws a light on this issue in a slightly different way. The young men convicted, Henry Long, Albert Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, my right Bowers and Jessie Cole, could not read or write. Their honourable friend the Prime Minister has made absolutely education from the age of 11 was only in the arena of clear that alleviating poverty and responding to crime, not at school. Does the Minister agree that all humanitarian crises remains a priority programme in British citizens should speak and read our language if the new FCDO. they are to thrive and become valued members of society? It is important to the fabric of our nation and The Lord Bishop of Rochester: My Lords, in this their feeling of belonging to this nation. Not giving context will the Minister give assurances that the anyone the opportunity, and making that learning Government will continue to adhere to their stated compulsory if necessary, is a failure of our system. commitment to poverty reduction, observing both the letter and spirit of domestic development legislation, Lord Greenhalgh: My Lords, I agree with the noble including not only the matter the Minister has already Lord. The recent census showed that 770,000 people mentioned—the 0.7% GDP target—but matters such who live in England speak little or no English. We as independent evaluation of impact and gender equality, need to work hard to ensure that we provide them with and that any deviation from the present pattern will be those skills, so that they can benefit fully from life in debated and agreed both here and in the other House? this country. Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I do not doubt for a moment that we will continue to have The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, all various debates on the new FCDO. The right reverend supplementary questions have been asked, and we Prelate mentioned gender equality. As he will know, now move to the second Oral Question. the Prime Minister is a strong advocate. Indeed, since he was his mantra has consistently Foreign and Commonwealth Office and been about 12 years of quality education for all girls Department for International around the world. Development: Merger Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con) [V]: My Lords, Question in the House of Commons on 30 June, the Foreign Secretary said: 1.17 pm “There has been no sustained pause”—[Official Report, Commons, Asked by Lord Harries of Pentregarth 30/6/20; col. 144.] in aid spending. How soon do the Government plan to Toask Her Majesty’s Government how the merger resume their funding for organisations such as the of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the World Food Programme, which does such vital work Department for International Development will to reduce food insecurity in east Africa? enhance the United Kingdom’s ability to help (1) the poorest, and (2) the most vulnerable, communities Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I assure my noble abroad. friend, notwithstanding the merger—and I have been directly involved in aligning responsibilities as part of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth the merger—we continue to retain, sustain and strengthen Office and Department for International Development our commitment to helping the most vulnerable (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con): My Lords, the communities around the world and supporting new FCDO will be a force for good in the world. international programmes. Building shared global prosperity, eradicating poverty, tackling climate change, strengthening the international Baroness Coussins (CB) [V]: My Lords, will the new rule of law and global security and promoting free, FCDO provide funding for projects to combat sexual open societies are all in our national interest. Development violence, particularly in Colombia, on a longer-term will remain central to the new department’s mission. basis than the one year’s funding generally provided Our commitment to spending 0.7% of our national by the Foreign Office now, and with survivors more income on aid is enshrined in law. rigorously involved in programme design? Does the 7 FCO and DfID: Merger [LORDS] FCO and DfID: Merger 8

[BARONESS COUSSINS] excellent scope and results on the ground. But the IFIs new department plan to host the PSVI conference in are also important partners, and we will continue to 2021, after its cancellation in April this year because have their expertise in the new department. of the pandemic? Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, I return Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: As the Prime Minister’s to the issue of transparency. The fact that a 20% ODA PSVI envoy and representative, I assure the noble cut was announced on the last day that the Commons Baroness that it remains a key priority for Her Majesty’s sat does not give us confidence about the future of Government. I am sure she respects the fact that we transparency. I ask the noble Lord for a direct personal have to look at the idea of next year for the conference commitment: is he personally committed to retaining in terms of the coronavirus pandemic and how we can ICAI, which ensures that ODA is effectively spent? organise any conference effectively. We are already Will he personally support an ODA Select Committee committed to holding the COP 26 conference in that would ensure full parliamentary scrutiny in the November. future?

Lord Boateng (Lab) [V]: My Lords, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, the new Commission for Aid Impact has ensured the highest department carries the word “development” for an levels of transparency and aid effectiveness for DfID. important reason, because development will continue Will the Minister give the House a clear undertaking to be a focus. The Government will remain accountable that this will continue in the new department and that and transparent in our dealings on ODA, through it will report to Parliament on the work and effectiveness parliamentary scrutiny and by answering Parliamentary of the new department? Questions, as I am today. As I have already said to the right reverend Prelate, we will continue to return to the subject when the new department comes online in Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The FCDO will remain September. accountable to Parliament in how it spends UK aid. I assure the noble Lord that we remain fully committed to issues of transparency in our aid spending. There The Earl of Sandwich (CB) [V]: My Lords,a £2.9 billion will continue to be parliamentary and independent aid cut and an inevitably costly merger are bound to scrutiny of the aid budget. hurt the poorest. Can the Minister at least reassure us that—[Inaudible.]

Baroness Sheehan (LD) [V]: My Lords,the development Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I did not catch the full community is in the dark about last week’s cuts to question; I will write to the noble Earl on the specifics. ODA. There was no consultation or notice. Will the Minister write to me with details of the process by Lord Howell of Guildford (Con) [V]: My Lords, which decisions were made and the strong case for does my noble friend agree that, contrary to some keeping ICAI and a dedicated ODA committee for it views that we have heard, the proposed merger will to work through, as the best arrangement if the bring together the considerable expertise and resources Government want to be trusted on their aid commitment? of both departments concerned with the modern Commonwealth network, greatly enhancing our capacities Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, parliamentary to support more vulnerable Commonwealth members committees are very much a matter for Parliament. I and peoples, and allowing us to engage far more fully disagree with the noble Baroness on consultation. As a in the deployment of our soft power—or wise power, I Human Rights Minister, I have engaged closely with prefer to call it—in support of both global security human rights organisations, and my noble friend and our trade prospects? Lady Sugg and the DfID Permanent Secretary have been meeting with NGO partners on the development Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I totally agree with my programmes. noble friend.

The Duke of Montrose (Con) [V]: My Lords, my Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD) [V]: My Lords, why noble friend the Minister gave us a wonderful collection is the Minister being so evasive about the role of of high-level aims.A neighbour of mine runs a programme ICAI? It has been a huge success. It was introduced by through an independent charity in Madagascar,tackling . Working with the International environmental and poverty issues. People at that level Development Committee—which I had the privilege want to know whether the Foreign Office will be better of chairing for 10 years—it has proved an effective able to direct funding down to grass-roots need or way of demonstrating real accountability for UK aid whether an even larger proportion of the aid budget and giving confidence that we continue to be world will be devoted to international development banks, leaders.DotheGovernmentnotrecognisethatdismantling including the European Development Bank and its that arrangement will not leave them with the trust of like. the aid community or the poor of the world?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, we remain Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I have already committed to ensuring that grass-roots organisations, answered the issue of scrutiny. I have dealt with ICAI such as the one my noble friend described, continue to specifically. It has made recommendations on briefs be recipients of UK support, because they deliver and parts of my portfolio, including PSVI, which we 9 FCO and DfID: Merger [27 JULY 2020] Terezin Declaration 10 discussed earlier. We continue to respond to all levels Lord Wills (Lab) [V]: My Lords, the Government of parliamentary scrutiny, as we will with the new clearly find it difficult to make progress with Poland department from September. on this issue. However, in many ways, recognition can be as important as restitution in healing the terrible The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, all wounds of the Nazi era. But Poland obstructs the placing supplementary questions have again been asked, so we of inexpensive Stolpersteine—plaques commemorating move to the third Oral Question. Nazi victims—even though these have helped the healing process elsewhere in Europe. Have the Government pressed Poland to stop such obstruction, and if not, Terezin Declaration why not? Question Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we continue to raise regularly the 1.28 pm importance of this issue with the Polish authorities. I Asked by Baroness Deech have worked with Poland directly on broader issues concerning freedom of religion or belief, on which To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress Poland stands very strong. I assure him that we will they have made towards fulfilling their commitments continue in our campaign to ensure that the important as a party to the Terezin Declaration of 30 June issue of restitution is kept at the forefront of our 2009; and what discussions they have had with the discussions. government of Poland about the restitution of property seized from Polish Jewish citizens during the period Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD) [V]: My Lords, I of Nazi occupation. need to be clear that I will not be claiming from Poland, despite my late mother being born there and The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth my having a grandmother who disappeared in Poland. Office and Department for International Development However, as the UK was a signatory to the Terezin (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con): My Lords, the agreement, what plans, others than those that the United Kingdom continues to meet its commitments Minister has enumerated, have the Government to to the Terezin declaration, particularly in Holocaust fulfil their obligations to claimants? Nothing has moved education and remembrance. We are in regular on. Can the Government, for instance, assist claimants conversationwiththePolishGovernmentontherestitution who wish to bring action against Poland under the of property seized during the Nazi occupation. The European Court of Human Rights? UK post-Holocaust issues envoy, my noble friend Lord Pickles, is working with the US and other parties Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I have already to call on Poland to pass legislation to provide restitution stated what the Government are doing through their of or compensation for private property. bilateral efforts with Poland and through multilateral fora. On the wider issue of the Terezin declaration, I assure the noble Lord that the UK remains fully Baroness Deech (CB) [V]: My Lords, I have been committed to meeting its commitments to the declaration, asking the same Question here for 11 years and getting including important elements of commemorating the the same response of no progress or promises. Poland Holocaust and engaging on the very issues that the is the only country in the EU that has not passed noble Lord has raised. legislation to deal with one of the greatest thefts in history. Bills have been repeatedly introduced and Lord Pickles (Con) [V]: My Lords, will my noble withdrawn there, Bills that contained conditions that friend join me in paying tribute to our ambassador in would have excluded the vast majority of Holocaust Warsaw, Jonathan Knott, for his persistent commitment survivors. Will the Minister accept my proposal to to restitution? His meeting last week with the Speaker follow the example of the American legislation called of the Polish Parliament helped pave the way for the the Justice for Uncompensated Survivors Today Act, withdrawal of the Bill on Warsaw property rights from and secure an annual report to Parliament about the the lower House. This legislation would have been a return of Jewish and non-Jewish property? Will he major obstacle to restitution. This week, we should see raise it at the Belvedere Forum every year? Will the the publication of the United States Government’s UK use its position in the Council of Europe to press response to Congress on the JUST Act, focusing on for a human rights agenda focusing on Poland and compliance with the Terezin declaration. Will my noble restitution, as required under the Universal Declaration friend pledge that we will work alongside our allies in of Human Rights? the United States and Poland to see that justice is brought to the families of Holocaust victims whose Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I acknowledge property was confiscated by the Nazis? the noble Baroness’s question; I remember answering the first Question on this issue back in 2014. As the Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, first, I join Human Rights Minister, I remain committed, along my noble friend in paying tribute to our ambassador with my noble friend Lord Pickles and others, and I to Poland, who, as my noble friend said, recently assure her that we continue to raise the issue regularly intervened on an important issue of legislation in with Poland, bilaterally through our ambassador most Poland. I also join him in praising the efforts of other recently, and in international for a—and I take on key partners, including the United States. When I was board the suggestion of the Council of Europe. last in the US, I met Special Envoy Elan Carr to 11 Terezin Declaration [LORDS] Probate Service 12

[LORD AHMAD OF WIMBLEDON] Lord Pickles in his important work, will my noble discuss how we can work together more closely. Finally, friend the Minister institute an annual reporting system I want to put on record my thanks to my noble friend to encourage the Poles to do what is just and right? for all his work on this important issue. Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I note what Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab): My Lords, my noble friend has said. He will know from our own frequent reference has been made to “ongoing”bilateral conversations how committed I am personally to ensuring discussions, and we must heed that and take it at face scrutiny. We continue to ensure that Poland stands up value. However, the general in Poland has as a signatory of the Terezin declaration. We will work returned to power someone whose campaign proved with the US. Noble Lords have mentioned JUST, and consistently anti-German, anti-Jewish and anti-LGBTQ. it is planned that the first JUST Act will be released at Will the Minister let us know how easy it is, with a the end of July. We will look at its outcomes and work Government such as the present one, to have the kinds closely with our partners. of conversations that might have outcomes that would prevent us discussing the matter in the future, as we have in the past? While we are emerging from the Lord Haskel (Lab) [V]: My Lords, as well as restitution, European Union at this critical time, is there enough another very clear purpose of the declaration is that energy to focus on this question, when so many other we should learn from these past events to build a more things demand our attention? compassionate and understanding present and future through human rights. However, rising anti-Semitism, intolerance, racism and populism in countries that Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, on the signed the declaration show that this aspect has clearly noble Lord’s final point, we do engage regularly—most failed. Will the Government institute work to help us recently, as we heard from my noble friend, engagement find out and understand why that is, so that we can through our ambassador produced positive results. also make this part of the declaration more effective? We of course look forward to working with the new Government and I assure the noble Lord that at my first meeting with the Foreign Minister we will discuss Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I am happy various issues, including that of restitution. to give that commitment. As a Minister I am responsible for human rights and for standing up in strong support of organisations around the world that fight racism Baroness Northover (LD) [V]: Justice dictates that and the abhorrence of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. huge efforts must be made to restore to families property Irrespective of party affiliations, we will continue to stolen from those who died at the hands of the Nazis. work together as one country to ensure that every kind All EU states signed the Terezin declaration. What of hate and abhorrent hate crime, be it religious or arrangements are we making after the transition period otherwise, is met with the full force of our unity of to work with our EU neighbours to deliver on those action and purpose. I stand ready to work with other commitments? noble Lords in the pursuit of this noble aim. Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, we will continue to work with our EU friends on a number of The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, all important issues, as we will do on this and on wider supplementary questions have been asked. We will issues of freedom of religion or belief. now move on to the next and final Question.

Lord Mann (Non-Afl) [V]: The late Lord Janner, Probate Service along with our embassy in Lithuania, carried out a huge project to mark every site of a mass atrocity Question across Lithuania. What has been done under Terezin to ensure that those plaques are still in place and are 1.39 pm being properly maintained? Asked by Baroness Ludford

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I will write Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what assessment to the noble Lord on that important issue. However, I they have made of (1) the operation, and (2) the am sure I speak for all noble Lords when I say that resourcing, of the Probate Service; and what plans wherever such atrocities took place—I have visited they have to remedy any issues identified. Auschwitz-Birkenau in Poland—we should always commemorate and remember, and commit ourselves The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of to ensuring that this kind of genocide does not happen Elie) (Con) [V]: My Lords, current waiting times in the again. probate service are within expected timeframes, but we expect that to come under pressure as case receipts Lord Polak (Con): What further practical help are rise. The service has continued to operate effectively, HMG giving to those who need to delve into Polish despite the pressures faced during the Covid-19 pandemic. archives—a very difficult issue—in their pursuit of Additional resources have been, and continue to be, justice? It is not only Polish Jews who suffered; many put in place by Her Majesty’s Courts & Tribunals non-Jewish Poles had their properties nationalised by Service to for additional demand following the Polish Government. In helping my noble friend the increase in the overall death rate. 13 Probate Service [27 JULY 2020] Probate Service 14

Baroness Ludford (LD) [V]: I thank the Minister for electronic-type signatures on probate forms, and allowing that Answer, but his claims do not mesh with my legal representatives to sign legal statements on behalf experiences or those of others. I appreciate that, like of clients. These steps will simplify and accelerate the other service providers, lockdown has caused challenges process. for the probate service, but its problems of resourcing and organisation go deeper than that. It was already in Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab) [V]: My Lords, the midst of an apparent restructuring. Press articles there has clearly been a lot of adverse press and we last month on the chaos experienced by relatives mirror have heard from other noble Lords about personal my own saga. I received misinformation, and calls and experiences where the probate service has not performed emails went unanswered. Finally, my husband’s will, as we would all wish. What confidence does the Minister which had been deposited with the service, could not have that the probate service is performing as well as be located for a very worrying few weeks—almost a he claims it is? What monitoring does he think is subject for the theatre of the absurd. Only once I had appropriate to put in place so that we can all have gone on Twitter was my case solved. People who are confidence that the probate system is fit for the present grieving deserve better treatment than many are getting, large increase in Covid-related deaths that we have seen? not least from the probate service. Lord Keen of Elie [V]: My Lords, in late 2019 we Lord Keen of Elie [V]: My Lords, I very much regret saw a very clear and discernible improvement in the the personal experience that the noble Baroness, turnaround of probate applications and probate grants. Lady Ludford, suffered. However, particularly during As I indicated, in January to March this year the the present crisis, the probate service is working effectively. average waiting time for a grant of probate was about There was a move in the last year to a digital system. four weeks. Some, of course, are simpler than others. That is bedding in and proving successful. Indeed, the Indeed, where written rather than digital applications average waiting time for a grant of probate in the are made, there is greater room for error and therefore period January to March this year was about four weeks. of delay in respect of these matters. However, we are monitoring the system. That is why we can give figures Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab) [V]: Are not inordinate on the turnaround on probate grants. We are training delays and confusion, applications stuck for four months additional staff as well. We appreciate that this will be without explanation, people kept on the line for 50 minutes required, given that there will be an increase in probate and staff unable to find relevant documents symptoms applications over the summer, reflecting the increased of an organisation that was already underfunded and death rate as a result of the Covid pandemic. whose staff were undertrained before Covid? Is this Viscount Trenchard (Con) [V]: My Lords, does my service not unacceptable for the families and charities noble and learned friend the Minister agree that the that need assets released? Will the Minister guarantee delay on granting probate in recent years has been far that fees will not be raised while the performance of more than is reasonable? Does he not think that it the probate registry is so poor? would be helpful if the Government could allow, prior to probate being granted, more additional payments Lord Keen of Elie [V]: My Lords, I do not accept to be made from an estate than are allowed at present? that the performance of the probate service should be characterised as poor. No guarantee can be given Lord Keen of Elie [V]: My Lords, I emphasise the regarding fees. improvement that took place in the grant of probate during 2019 and into 2020, even in the face of the Lord German (LD) [V]: My Lords, with continuing increased demand on the probate service as a result of delays now extended over several years, is it not time the Covid crisis. As a result, we are seeing a turnaround for the Government to introduce a one-stop shop for in the grant of probate that allows for the present dealing with probate to avoid the need to go back and system on payments to be accommodated. We have no forth making arrangements between the courts service, proposals regarding my noble friend’s latter point. the Treasury and others? Lord Blunkett (Lab) [V]: My heart goes out to the Lord Keen of Elie [V]: My Lords, the introduction noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, who demonstrated the of a digital scheme is proving effective. Because of personal heartache that comes when systems do not that, it was possible for probate staff to deal more work. Could the Minister reflect on the fact that the effectively with applications during the Covid crisis. Courts & Tribunals Service has always been under We are seeing a greater uptake in the digital service major pressure, not least because of the use of agency from legal professionals as well. staff? What plans are in place for when staff who have been reallocated to probate go back to their normal Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]: Given working lives? the comments already made by noble Lords, does the Minister think that adding various issues to probate, Lord Keen of Elie [V]: My Lords, we have undertaken such as the signing of wills remotely by video call, the training of an additional 34 staff in the probate could increase disputes and later administrative problems? service. In addition, as district probate registries close Perhaps the probate service is being overloaded. in the light of the development of the digital applications, we have sought to retain some of those staff within the Lord Keen of Elie [V]: My Lords, in fact, we have courts and tribunal system for probation work. However, taken steps to simplify the probate process. We are other staff are allocated to other parts of the Courts & replacing affidavits with a statement of truth, accepting Tribunals Service. 15 Probate Service [LORDS] Covid-19: Response 16

Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD) [V]: Are any Covid-19: Response of the temporary measures adopted during lockdown Statement under consideration for becoming permanent—for example, signed statements of truth replacing affidavits The following Statement was made on Monday 20 July or HMRCaccepting estimated values and then subsequent in the House of Commons. corrected values? “With permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I would Lord Keen of Elie [V]: Certainly, it is intended that like to make a Statement on our action against coronavirus. permanently replacing affidavits with statements of Thanks to the perseverance of the British people truth will be considered, as will electronic signatures and the hard work of those on the front line, this virus on probate forms—albeit that the whole issue of electronic is on the back foot. For over three weeks now, the signatures should be considered more widely. Going number of new cases each day has been below 1,000, forward, we will seek to learn from these changes what and daily hospital admissions are down to 142. Because permanent improvements can be introduced to the of this success in slowing the spread of the virus, on service. Friday, the Prime Minister was able to set out a conditional timetable for the further easings of the Baroness Altmann (Con) [V]: I commend the restrictions. Government on the move to a digital scheme for Throughout the reopening, we have acted carefully probate, but will the Minister consider an urgent inquiry and cautiously, always vigilant, and we have been able into the performance levels that we have been hearing to deliver on our plan. We have protected the NHS. about since March? What has happened to average We have cautiously replaced the national lockdown waiting times? How many important documents have with local action. Thanks to our action against hundreds been mislaid, and what lessons can be learned on of local outbreaks, and thanks to NHS test and trace streamlining the service after recent experiences? I add working well, NHS test and trace has now asked my sincere condolences to the noble Baroness, 180,000 people to self-isolate—that is up to 180,000 Lady Ludford. potential chains of transmission broken by this brilliant new service. What is more, in the hundreds of thousands Lord Keen of Elie [V]: I thank the noble Baroness of tests it delivers every single day, the vast—vast— for her question. We appreciate that the service will majority test negative. That provides assurance to come under increased pressure in July and August, hundreds of thousands of people who can go back to because of the increased death rate in the spring. work and sleep easy. Probate applications tend to come about three months NHS test and trace is a brand new service. Putting after the relevant death. We are pleased with the together a massive service of this kind, at this pace, rollout of the digital service and the response has been has been a remarkable job—almost unprecedented. I extremely good, with an increase in take-up by legal would like to thank the remarkable leadership of professionals. The system is being monitored and we Baroness Harding for spearheading the programme will ensure that the improvements of the latter part of and Tom Riordan, who has driven our vital work with 2019 continue, while recognising the challenges of the local authorities. Everybody in this country who loves Covid-19 crisis. freedom should join me in thanking all those who work in NHS test and trace, in , The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, the and in local public health operations for successfully time allowed for this Question has elapsed. delivering on our plan of moving from a national lockdown to local action. The plan is working. 1.51 pm I would like, if I may, to set out the next stages in Sitting suspended. this plan. We refuse to be complacent about the threat posed by the virus, and we will not hesitate to put the brakes on if we need to. Our goal is that this should be Arrangement of Business done through as targeted local action as possible, like Announcement we did in Leicester, where we can now start to ease the restrictions. On Friday, we published our framework 2.01 pm for containing and controlling future outbreaks in The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) England. From Saturday, local authorities have had (LD): My Lords, hybrid proceedings will now resume. new powers in their areas so that they can act with Some Members are here in the Chamber, respecting more vigour in response to outbreaks. They can now social distancing, and others are participating remotely, close specific premises, shut outdoor public spaces, but all Members will be treated equally. If the capacity and cancel events. Later this week, we will publish of the Chamber is exceeded, I will immediately adjourn indicative draft regulations that clearly set out the the House. suite of legislative powers that Ministers may need to We now come to questions on the Statement on the use to intervene at a local level. Covid-19 response. It has been agreed in the usual As I pledged to the House on Thursday, we are channels to dispense with the reading of the Statement publishing more data and sharing more data with itself, and we will proceed immediately to questions local bodies. I bow to no one in my enthusiasm for the from the Opposition Front Bench. There will then be good use of data in decision-making. Properly used, 40 minutes for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions data is one of the best epidemiological weapons that and answers be brief. we have. From last month, local directors of public 17 Covid-19: Response [27 JULY 2020] Covid-19: Response 18 health have had postcode-level data about outbreaks discuss the need for global licensing access for any in their area. From today, as I committed to the House successful vaccine.Here at home, as well as our investment last week, we are going further and putting enhanced in research, we are working hard to build a portfolio of levels of data in the hands of local directors of public the most promising new vaccines, no matter where health too. Of course, high-quality testing is the main they are from. We have already secured 100 million source of our data, and having set targets radically to doses of the Oxford vaccine, if it succeeds, and today I expand testing over the past few months—which have can tell the House that the Government have secured had exactly the desired effect, as each one has been early access to 90 million further vaccine doses—30 million met—so we are now setting the target for the nation of from an agreement between BioNTech and Pfizer, and half a million antigen tests a day by the end of 60 million from Valneva. We are getting the deals in October, ahead of winter. I am sure that, as a nation, place, so that once we know a vaccine is safe and we will meet this challenge too. effective, we can make it available for British citizens The need for extra testing is not, of course, the only as soon as humanly possible. challenge that winter will bring. We know that the Another long-term solution to eliminating this virus NHS will face the usual annual winter pressures, and and its negative effects is through developing effective on top of that, we do not yet know how the virus will treatments, and it was British scientists, backed by UK interact with the cold weather. So we will make sure Government funding, who led the first robust clinical that the NHS has the support it needs. We have trial to find a treatment that was proved to reduce the massively increased the number of ventilators available risk of dying from Covid: dexamethasone. We now to patients across the UK, up from 9,000 before the have preliminary results from a clinical trial of another pandemic to nearly 30,000 now; we have now had an treatment known as SNG001, which was created by agreed supply of 30 billion pieces of personal protective the Southampton-based biotech firm Synairgen. Initial equipment; and we will be rolling out the biggest ever findings based on a small cohort suggest that SNG001 flu vaccination programme in our country’s history. may substantially reduce the chance of someone To support this, I have agreed with the Chancellor developing severe disease, and it could cut hospital of the Exchequer the funding necessary to protect the admission time by a third. The data still need to be NHS this winter too. We have already announced peer reviewed, and we are supporting a further large-scale £30 billion for health and social care, and we will now trial, but the preliminary results are a positive sign. provide a further £3 billion on top of the £1.5 billion In the fight against this virus, our world-renowned capital funding announced a fortnight ago. This applies universities, researchers and scientists are indispensable, to the NHS in England. Those in Scotland, Wales and so that we can develop the vaccines and treatments Northern Ireland will also receive extra funding. This that will tackle this virus for the long term. We have a means that the NHS can keep using the extra hospital plan, our plan is working, and the measures I have set capacity in the independent sector and that we can out today will help to protect the NHS, support our maintain the Nightingale hospitals, which have provided treatments and vaccines, and take our country forward so much reassurance throughout the pandemic, at together. I commend this Statement to the House.” least until the end of March. We have protected the NHS through this crisis, and that support will help us 2.01 pm to protect it in the months ahead. Baroness Thornton (Lab): My Lords, I gave the We all know that in the long term, the best solution Minister notice on Friday that, because we had not to this crisis would be a vaccine, and I am delighted to taken a Statement about Covid for three weeks, I will say that Britain continues to lead the world on that. need to address the three Statements that are outstanding. Two leading vaccine developments are taking place in Parliament entrusted this Government with huge this country, at Oxford and Imperial, and both are powers to deal with Covid-19 when we put the emergency supported by government funding and the British life powers on the statute book in March. Certainly, in science industry.Today,Oxford published an encouraging this House, at the time of the passage of the emergency report in the Lancet, showing that its phase 1 and 2 legislation we sought and received undertakings from trials are proceeding well. The trial shows that the the Minister and the Government about the need for Oxford vaccine produces a strong immunity response effective scrutiny, timely debate, consultation and trust. in patients, in both antibody production and T-cell So how will accountability be achieved during the responses, and that no safety concerns have been Recess and the autumn in this fast-moving world? All identified. That promising news takes us one step three Statements raised vital issues that deserve more closer to finding a vaccine that could save lives around time and scrutiny than we were able to give them, and the world. I am grateful for the extra time that the usual channels The UK is not just developing world-leading vaccines; have found for Back-Bench colleagues. we are also putting more money into the global work Before I address these Statements, I want to ask for a vaccine than any other country. With like-minded Minister about the sudden announcement this weekend partners, we are working to ensure that whoever’s of quarantine measures for those returning from Spain. vaccine is approved first, the whole world can have These Benches have made it clear that we support access. We reject narrow nationalism. We support a evidence-based protective measures at the border. We global effort, because this virus respects no borders, have long called for the scientific evidence to be made and we are all on the same side. public and for track, trace and isolate systems to be in This morning I held a global conference call with place, to avoid the need for the blunt tool of 14-day other health leaders, including from Germany,Australia, quarantine. Does the Minister agree that the latest Canada, Switzerland, the United States, and others, to decision-making process regarding Spain and the short 19 Covid-19: Response [LORDS] Covid-19: Response 20

[BARONESS THORNTON] The Minister knows that we stand shoulder to shoulder notice for travellers have created a sense of panic and with the Government in taking on poisonous anti-vax suggest a loss of control? Will he agree that proper propaganda. However, if a vaccine does not become contingency plans should be in place to support people available, what scenario planning is taking place right coming home where there is no guarantee that their now, should we be confronted with that awful prospect? employers will allow them 14 days of work flexibility? Will the Minister take this opportunity to update the Why do the measures apply to the whole of Spain? As House on R? Are we still below 1? Which parts of the my honourable friend Jon Ashworth MP said yesterday, country are not? “We’ve got an outbreak here in Leicester, but the On social care, we welcome the fact that families are whole of Leicestershire is not locked down and the now able to visit their loved ones in care homes and we whole of the East Midlands is not locked down, so also welcome the extra funding for the NHS announced why are the Balearics and the Canaries included when by the Prime Minister. But there was no extra funding their infection rate is so low?” for social care. Will social care get any more resources On the announcement on 14 July about face masks this winter? This is underlined by the Government’s and shopping—a month after it became mandatory to failure to reimburse care homes properly for PPE and wear masks on public transport—why did it take so testing costs during the pandemic. They will actively long and why was the messaging so confusing? We have to meet the additional costs of ensuring that care have long known about airborne transmission. The homes stay safe for residents, staff and visitors. It must Secretary of State warned long ago about asymptomatic be cost-effective that they do so. The Local Government transmission. The Secretary of State’s own advice Association has today called for a social care reset published on 11 May advised in favour of wearing after reflection on the Prime Minister’s pledge to fix face masks, so it is a shame that it took two months to social care a year ago. That representative body has make that advice mandatory; it came into force last urged the Government to publish their timetable for Friday. How will it be enforced? As a former member social care reform prior to Parliament’s return from of USDAW, I am very concerned for shop workers. the Summer Recess in September. Will the Minister USDAW says: tell the House whether that is possible? “We are also deeply concerned that enforcing the wearing of face coverings could present a further flashpoint for abuse against Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]: My Lords, from these our retail members.” Liberal Democrat Benches, I thank and congratulate It makes the point that full government guidance was all the millions of people, whether paid staff or volunteers, released only hours before the changes came into who have worked tirelessly over the last five months to effect, so how were employers to have adequate time combat this pandemic, serving people and providing to put the policy in place to support their staff during support during what is the most extraordinary health these changes? crisis in 100 years.As the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, On the Leicester lockdown announced on 16 July, outlined, it is very disappointing that the Government the people of Leicester are now in the 17th week of Whips’ Office has resisted giving your Lordships’ House lockdown. We will discuss that issue on Wednesday, the opportunity to have a timely discussion on each of but will the Minister confirm what lessons the Government the three Covid Statements, on 14, 16 and 20 July. have learned from what they did and did not do in Each covered different, urgent and serious matters for Leicester, for when they face other local flare-ups? our country that should be scrutinised by your Lordships’ Will the Minister guarantee—I would like a yes or no House, so I too will use all three Statements as the answer—that local authorities will now get the specific basis for my questions to the Minister today. data that can facilitate action, that it will be timely and First, given that the report of 20 July has a strategic in the form of person-identifiable data, not just postcodes, and end-of-term report feel, we have an overarching and that it will include not just positive but negative concern about the Government’s repeated mantra in results so that they can understand the overall infection Statements about protecting the NHS at all costs, prevalence? Will they receive the contact tracing data including the preparations for a second wave. so that they will know who has been asked to isolate Unfortunately, it appears that lessons have not been by test and trace and can follow them up? Will they learned from the consequences of that single priority, receive the data on a daily basis? Once a week is not not least those from throwing our care sector to the good enough. The virus does not wait a week, so why wolves without adequate testing, PPE or financial should local directors of public health have to wait a support for its massively increased costs. So I ask the week? Minister again: do all parts of the care sector now Moving on, the financial Statement said that £10 billion have repeat and regular testing, the PPE they need to had been allocated to test and trace. It would be practise new standards of infection control and continuing helpful if the Minister could itemise what that £10 billion financial support for the consequences of both? has been spent on and with whom. A letter to me As I mentioned on Friday in the debate on the lodged in the Library would probably suffice for that coronavirus regulations, a further group feel they have question. On 20 July last week, the Secretary of State been left high and dry: people who shield, whether made a comprehensive Statement—a sort of end-of-term they are disabled, elderly or have serious underlying report; I can pick out only one or two important conditions. So I again ask: will the Minister explain matters and hope that other noble Lords will cover the why the letter to shielders dated 22 June insists that rest. The news about vaccine progress was very welcome shielders lose all the support for shielding from 1 August? and exciting, but will the Government ensure that The letter instructs recipients to follow strict social there is equitable access to a vaccine when it is developed? distancing at all times and to stay at home where 21 Covid-19: Response [27 JULY 2020] Covid-19: Response 22 possible but, in complete contradiction to that, also On the arrangements for Spain, I reassure the noble instructs people to return to work if it is Covid-safe Baroness, Lady Thornton, that there is a very thorough and removes access to furlough pay and sick pay, so if system of regular meetings to assess the exemptions on it is not safe to return to work and shielders cannot travel. This is done at several levels of government and work from home, they are now at high risk of losing detailed intelligence from the front line is provided to their jobs. Blood Cancer UK is extremely concerned those meetings. However,the situation in many countries about this risk for people who have been shielding as is fast changing, and the Spanish situation is a good from August they will face an impossible choice between example. The information we had at the beginning of returning to work and risking their health or staying at last week was quite different from the information we home and risking unemployment. It asked the had by the end of the week. Fast turnaround decisions Government to extend the furlough scheme for the small are not a sign of panic or weakness; they are a sign that number of people involved for up to three months or the system works and is working well. We are trying to to provide alternative financial support to protect be as flexible as we can and we respect the country’s them from life-threatening ill health, and we agree. desire to travel, but when the infection rate in overseas Will the Minister undertake to raise this with the countries moves, we have to move quickly as well. Chancellor of the Exchequer as a matter of urgency Within individual countries, there is no way for us to and write to me? control intra-country transport. It is therefore very Lifting the lockdown also brings into sharp relief difficult and challenging to have a regional exemption how much real progress has been made by the Government list. That is why we have not been able to give exemptions on testing, tracing and isolating as a key tool to to the Balearics, and I say that with a personal interest manage outbreaks. Tothat we must again add quarantine in the matter. arrangements. On the news today, following the Spain Our guidance on face masks is based on trust. quarantine regulations, we heard the Government say There is no compulsion and they are not mandatory. that they will not be monitoring any quarantine In some countries they are mandatory, but not in this arrangements. They are still experimenting with country. That is why the science is so important to us, temperature screening at airports and are not routinely and it is one reasons that we may have moved behind testing people as they arrive in the country. If we are some other countries. The guidance we now have on serious about having a proper system for people arriving face masks is extremely clear. I pay tribute to the large in this country and quarantining safely, when will that and growing number of people wearing them. I believe be put in place? this country is moving in the right direction. We also hear that testing capacity will shortly reach 500,000 a day, which is welcome, but there seems to be Weare concerned about shopworkers.USDAWmakes no routine to test that capacity to the full. It is still not a good case for the need to protect shopworkers who universal, despite repeated requests, regularly to test may be put in an awkward situation. That is why we NHS and care staff to keep them safe. We hear that work closely with the police to ensure that the right many local testing centres are closing down and that protections are in place. the test at home system is to stop. Can the Minister I say a profound thank you to the people of Leicester, reassure your Lordships’ House that a full test, trace, who have done an incredible amount in a difficult isolate and quarantine policy is in operation, not least situation. The signs are that the prevalence of the to test the larger-scale, effective system that we will disease has come down a long way in Leicester thanks need in the event of a second wave? How many people to their commitment. The lessons we have learned were tested on Friday? include some of the most obvious lessons you could Finally—the Minister can probably recite my next learn, but there is no replacement for local contacts question as I have asked it so often, but I will be and the involvement of local communities. However, grateful if he could answer my actual question, not there are hard-to-reach communities where our message repeat the usual mantra because just saying that local has not got through and we need to do more to reach authorities are being given more data at postcode level them. In particular, I am grateful to faith leaders in is not enough—when will all local authorities and Leicester who are working with us on preparing for directors of public health get the full data that they Eid and ensuring that the message on social distancing have requested and signed data protection releases for gets through in time for that important celebration. on a daily basis and at a more granular level than postcode, without which they cannot effectively tackle Full details of the budget for NHS Test and Trace will spikes in cases swiftly? The Minister saying that he is be published when the time is right, and when that time giving them more data is not enough. It must be the arrives I will be glad to place a copy in the Library data that they need and for which they have already as requested. signed data protection releases. I completely agree with the noble Baroness. Having an equitable distribution of the vaccine in this country TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department and overseas is key to the Government’s policy. That is of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con) [V]: My whyweareworkinghardwiththeWorldHealthOrganization, Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton GAVI and others to ensure that vaccines are shared as and Lady Brinton, for their detailed questions, which I a global resource. We hope that a vaccine can be found, will go through as speedily and thoroughly as I can. and the indications from Oxford are encouraging, but On accountability during the Recess, there are long- we recognise that vaccines for coronaviruses, particularly standing precedents on this and we will obey them, as those affecting the respiratory system, are difficult. is normal. That is why we are making a massive investment in the 23 Covid-19: Response [LORDS] Covid-19: Response 24

[LORD BETHELL] ever to ensure that people observe the restrictions test-and-trace programme and in therapeutics and why placed on them. I use my own circumstances as an we remain vigilant over local lockdowns—to rid this example. I am currently living under,and fully complying country of this horrible disease. with, extra restrictions because of the outbreak in the Both noble Baronesses spoke about social care. I do centre of Blackburn, yet I have a Bolton address, a not recognise the phrase used by the noble Baroness, Bolton telephone number and I live in Bolton. For me, Lady Brinton, that the care sector has been “thrown to as for hundreds of others, a random line drawn on a the wolves”. I find that an unhelpful characterisation. map places us on the far boundaries of Blackburn I say yes to regular testing, yes to PPE and yes to with Darwen. This geographical disconnect, which financial support—we have given £3.7 billion to local will be replicated across the country, risks undermining authorities to help them pay for the cost of Covid-19, co-operation. I would be most grateful if the Minister and on 2 July we gave a further £500 million to the could assure the House that, should local authorities social care sector. We remain vigilant with regard to have to take the difficult decision to impose extra the financial resilience of the social care system and restrictions or lockdown, they will be charged to do we are working very closely with social care providers everything in their power to make them as narrowly on the ongoing costs of both testing and PPE, as well focused as possible to ensure that the necessary element as the financial resilience of the entire sector. of good will remains. On shielders, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, makes a very good case. The handling of those who Lord Bethell [V]: The noble Baroness is entirely need shielding is one of the most delicate challenges right that these local outbreaks create invidious choices that we face. Those who through no fault of their own for local authorities, and the fine tuning of the boundaries are particularly vulnerable to the effects of the disease is an important part of the lockdown process. We saw are put in an invidious situation, and we are extremely that in Leicester, where the boundaries of the lockdown grateful to all those who have gone through the hardship were changed for the very reasons that she outlines, of extreme shielding during this long and difficult both to preserve trust and in order to be effective. time. I take on board all her comments and extend my However,I remind the noble Baroness that the movements profound thanks to all those concerned. I will look of people within areas mean that the disease can into the question of the parcels that she raised in the spread. Therefore, the lockdowns do not necessarily debate last week. My inquiries are ongoing on that, apply only to those areas with high prevalence in any and I will respond to her, as I promised to last week. one period, and sometimes buffers need to be put On the arrangements for travel, it is true that the around the infection area, which is why these areas can current medical advice is that we are currently sceptical seem to be either unfair or overextended. whether temperature testing is effective and therefore we have not imposed it. Lord Patel (CB) [V]: My Lords, Amnesty has reported that the UK has had 540 deaths among health and On testing, it is a frustrating but unavoidable truth care workers, second only to Russia. Compare that to that a test today does not necessarily mean that you do Spain, which has had 63 deaths. Have the Government not have Covid and that you may not display both the carried out a root-cause analysis to find out the causes symptoms and contagiousness of Covid in the days of these deaths, and will they publish the results? If ahead. That is why snap testing at airports cannot be a the Government have not carried out such an analysis, sure-fire and safe route for protecting the country, will the Minister agree that one should be carried out which is why we have to look at isolation as a way of with some urgency in case there is a second wave of protecting the country. infection? On the mandation of isolation, as in other matters to do with Covid, we apply a voluntary principle Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, local trusts have been because we believe that trust is the best way to keep the urged for many months now to undertake a profound public on side, and we have neither the legal nor the risk assessment of workers, particularly BAME workers, other resources necessary to impose mandation. in order to understand where infection may have come On the questions from the noble Baroness, from. Infection control teams in individual trusts are Lady Brinton, about the state of the testing programme, charged with the responsibility for delivering infection I reassure her that testing at home is not stopping and control plans. It is at that level that we can understand that NHS staff are regularly tested. There is a very the detailed causes of infection because in each trust clear plan, that plan is heavily resourced and we are those causes can be quite different. continuing to invest in it with innovation, manpower and legal support where necessary. Lord Snape (Lab) [V]: My Lords, may I, for the second time in three days, press the Minister on what The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) information is given or not given to local authorities (LD): We now come to the 40 minutes allocated for during this pandemic? Is he aware that in the borough Back-Bench questions. I ask that both questions and of Sandwell last week there were nearly 100 new cases answers be brief so that I can call the maximum of Covid-19, of which no fewer than 28 were confirmed number of speakers. at a single workplace in West Bromwich? Is he further aware that these 28 cases were discovered not by 2.22 pm notification through the Government’s track and trace Baroness Morris of Bolton (Con) [V]: My Lords, as system but by a telephone call from the relative of one the management of Covid-19 moves to localised decision- of those infected to Sandwell council’s public health making, good will is going to be more important than department? Does the Minister agree that workplace 25 Covid-19: Response [27 JULY 2020] Covid-19: Response 26 addresses must be included in the information given to Government’s plans to achieve this, in the light of local authorities nationwide so that councils can act concerns among general practitioners that they will be immediately to tackle the problem? Will he ensure that overwhelmed, and given that as many as one in six that is done in future? people in a recent survey said that they would not take up the vaccine if it was available? Do the Government Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, local authorities have intend, for example, to deploy the many nurses and had daily Covid-19 containment dashboards, which doctors who volunteered to assist earlier this year to include 111, 119, online triage information and positive deliver vaccinations for both flu and Covid-19? Will case information at UTLA and LSOA levels, for more they engage faith leaders in encouraging the uptake of than two weeks. Data for directors of public health vaccinations through proper explanation of the benefits who have signed the data-sharing agreement requires to individuals and to society as a whole of so doing? data-sharing agreements as personally identifiable information, and is mostly for their teams. That data Lord Bethell [V]: The noble Baroness raises an includes much more granular data, including sex, age, incredibly important issue and I pay tribute to Kate postcode, ethnicity, occupation, test date, pillar and Bingham, who is running the Vaccine Taskforce. She is test location type. This question of data is one that tackling exactly the issue that the noble Baroness concerns us enormously. We have moved a phenomenal raised. GPs are right to be concerned about capacity, amount in recent weeks, and it is my genuine belief which is why we are looking at ways of massively that those in local authorities, directors of public of increasing the capacity to deliver such a vaccine. We health and local infection teams have all the data that will definitely look at resources such as returnees, they need to do the job. pharmacists and other sources of people power to deliver the vaccine into the arms of the nation. On the Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]: My Lords, social care has anti-vaxxer groups, the fake news and wrong stories barely been mentioned in the last three Statements. around vaccines are an area of deep concern. We are Could the Minister clarify, in the event of a second working with faith groups and other civic leaders to wave of coronavirus, who in the Department of Health put right the arguments for a vaccine because, at the and Social Care is now leading on preparations with end of the day, any vaccine requires the participation the care sector, and who from the care sector is leading of a large proportion of the country in order for it to in those discussions? How frequently do they meet? be truly effective. It will cause huge disruption and personal suffering if trust is not maintained in the Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, I pay tribute to my efficacy of such a vaccine. colleague Helen Whately, the Minister for Social Care. She has worked incredibly hard and tirelessly on this Baroness Andrews (Lab) [V]: Where does the Minister area, which is her ultimate responsibility. There is a think the greatest risks of a second wave of Covid-19 social care team which handles those negotiations, now lie? What specifically needs to be achieved by and I thank all those in the social care industry who early autumn to prevent that, and what extra support are engaged. The social care industry is highly fragmented will be provided specifically for care homes? so engaging with the entire industry is a massive challenge. That is why we have put in place new LordBethell[V]:ThenobleBaronessinvitesspeculation; structures, new dialogues, new guidelines and new I wish that I knew the precise answer to that key ways of working to ensure that we are match-fit for question. We are extremely vigilant in a large number the winter. of areas, including the measures to release a degree of Lord Lansley (Con) [V]: My Lords, a number of social distancing and on foreign travel, as she knows. countries, including Hong Kong and Austria, undertake We know that if the country remains committed to the testing at ports of entry. Under certain circumstances, basic principles—hand washing and hygiene; social that can limit the time that people have to spend in distance; and isolation when necessary—those three quarantine. Will the Government offer such testing at principal pillars will be the ones that defend us from UK ports and airports? the spread of the disease. We are doing everything we can to shore up those pillars, and that is particularly Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, that is not in the true in social care, where we have massively boosted current guidelines. The noble Lord is entirely right testing for both staff and patients and brought in that it is incredibly time-consuming and not currently hygiene control, particularly around PPE. We will practicable. For the reasons I outlined in answer to an continue to support the sector financially to ensure earlier question, a test today does not guarantee that that agency workers can be used as little as possible. someone will not be infectious either tomorrow or the next day. That is why we have not focused on testing at Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]: My Lords, there are ports, but we remain open to suggestions. We assess a still issues about the length of time it takes for test large number of options and, as evidence and trials results to be returned and contacts traced. Is the emerge that may demonstrate the efficacy of different Minister aware that a four-week pilot scheme for the policies, we will of course consider them and remain OptiGene saliva test in Southampton was completed a open-minded. week ago? This test takes only 20 minutes to process. Since it does not rely on throat and nose swabs, there Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB): My Lords, the are less likely to be false negatives because of faulty Statement is clear that the intention is to mass-vaccinate swabbing. Can the Minister give the House the results the population once we have a vaccine that is safe and of the pilot, which was referred to by a witness to the effective. Can the Minister inform us of Her Majesty’s Science and Technology Committee as a potential 27 Covid-19: Response [LORDS] Covid-19: Response 28

[BARONESS WALMSLEY] managed to purchase a very large amount of it under game-changer? Are there plans to make the new test very difficult circumstances. We have also responded more widely available? In light of the latest news about well to the challenge of a global collapse in the PPE travellers from Spain, will the test be given at the supply chain. Despite appearances, we have substantial airport to all passengers returning from non-exempt stockpiles of both near-term seven-day and further-term countries so that they can be followed up quickly at 90-day PPE resources; by that, I am very pleased. the address they have given on the passenger locator Competition does not necessarily guarantee either form, and should they not have another test a few days quality or delivery. I pay tribute to colleagues in the later? NHS, in the Cabinet Office and at DH who have, under extremely difficult circumstances, thoroughly Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, I pay tribute to colleagues checked out the delivery and bona fides of the contracts at Southampton, who have been managing this exciting we have signed while working closely with the NSA to trial of saliva-based LAMP testing. The LAMP process avoid fraud. We continue to work closely with both is extremely exciting, as it removes the time-consuming domestic and overseas suppliers, which I would argue RNA extraction process from the testing; turnaround has delivered a valuable result for the country. times are therefore dramatically reduced. Saliva is a much more accessible vector for the virus than swabbing and therefore has potential for mass appeal. We are Baroness Fookes (Con) [V]: I will follow on from the extremely interested in the pilot of the OptiGene question posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins technology. It is, though, at an early stage. I would not of Tavistock. Have the Government worked out an want to raise expectations too quickly on this, but it order of priority in which people might receive a remains one of a great many similar exciting technologies vaccine? Would it be front-line workers, the elderly or that our innovations and partnership team is looking even—perhaps—government Ministers? at. I am extremely optimistic about the speed and scale of innovation in our test and trace programme, and I Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, the Cabinet Office is believe that we can move more quickly, at bigger scale charged with the role of deciding the order of priority. and with more accuracy than we ever have before in There are precedents for this; it is a well-established the very near term. list that is decided at a level outside the DH. I do not know if Cabinet Ministers are given priority, but I Lord Craig of Radley (CB) [V]: My Lords, does the slightly suspect that junior Ministers are not. Minister accept that confusion arises in the UK and overseas because England and the devolved Administrations’ Covid announcements often differ in Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I will content and timing, and may lack distinction between ask about the poorest of our fellow citizens. According guidance and statute? Such announcements will continue to the ONS report last Friday, in the four months for months, so can a structured and less confusing March to June this year, the mortality rate for Covid-19 scheme be adopted for all regions—for example, including in the most deprived areas of England was 140 deaths agreed regular days and time across the UK—for per 100,000 people. This was more than double the making or updating announcements? mortality rate—63 deaths per 100,000 of population—in the best-off areas. In fact, it was 120% above. Even Lord Bethell [V]: It may appear from the outside worse, in June the mortality rate in the most deprived that there are differences between the devolved nations areas was 137.5% higher. In short, it is getting worse. and England, but my experience is that the four-nations Why was there no mention of any of these in the approach to combating Covid has been extremely Statements that have been laid before us? What measures united and effective, and that we have worked extremely are the Government taking to address this particular well together. It is true that we move at a different pace problem? on some subjects, but we are generally moving to the same destination and in the same direction, and for that I pay tribute to my colleagues in the devolved nations. Lord Bethell [V]: The noble Lord touches on a subject that is extremely sensitive—it makes me feel Baroness Falkner of Margravine (Non-Afl) [V]: My emotional to think about it—but he is entirely right Lords, the United Kingdom has spent 30% more than that those who are least advantaged in society are any other EU country on PPE. Of the UK’s PPE hardest hit by this disease and lots of other diseases. contracts, 73% went through without any competition There are behavioural reasons for this: the decisions at all, compared with 61% in Europe. The Department that people make about social distancing and their of Health had 137 contracts totalling more than own health. There are also environmental reasons: the £1.9 billion, none of which was subject to competition, living conditions and the places in which they live. according to Spend Network. The Department of Neither of these detract from the fact that this is a Health has told today’s Financial Times: very sad and upsetting truth. However, we are extremely “We have a robust process in place to ensure that orders are of conscious of the challenge, as we are of all health a high standard and meet commercial due diligence.” inequalities. The particular lever that we are focused Which of those two statements is correct—that from on is trying to get our message out to hard-to-reach Spend Network, or that from the Department of Health? communities, who may not have heard the important messages on hygiene, social distancing and isolation. Lord Bethell [V]: Anyone who has stood at the We have in place a programme of marketing in order Dispatch Box to answer questions on PPE, as I have to reach these communities to communicate these done, will feel extremely proud of the fact that we have important messages. 29 Covid-19: Response [27 JULY 2020] Covid-19: Response 30

Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD) [V]: My Lords, “act with more vigour”? It seems a strange phrase to the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, me, and I would welcome some expansion on how raised the issue of the procurement of PPE. Can I those relationships are going. press the Minister on the procurement of vaccines? According to the Statement, the Government appear Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, the relationship with to have secured 190 million doses of vaccine—if they local authorities is extremely good, and I recommend succeed. Could he tell us what procedures have been that noble Lords do not believe everything they read undertaken to procure the vaccines and reassure the on this subject. I completely commend those who House that the country will not lose money if the work closely with PHE, the test and trace programme, vaccines do not, in fact, succeed? the joint biosecurity team and all the sectoral parts of government that reach out to local authorities, DPHs Lord Bethell [V]: I am not quite sure of the 190 million and local infection teams. A very strong bond is forming, number. I think that is possibly an aggregate number and we have a very large number of outbreaks up and of different vaccines. However, the practicalities of down the country that you never read or hear about, vaccine research are extremely expensive, and there are and which are not celebrated either for being good or eight, nine or 10 potential runners and riders in the bad because that partnership works well. The intelligence global vaccine market. It is the practice for countries and data are put into the hands of the people who to contribute to those research costs up front in order need them, and the teams move quickly and effectively to have access to the vaccine should it be successful. to deal with the outbreak. I am extremely grateful for That is the practice for medical research of many this; a huge amount of progress has already been kinds, and these are the practical costs of trying to made, and we continue to invest in those relationships. break the difficult mystery of the disease and providing security for ourselves and for our children. Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) V: My Lords, it is clearly good to hear that the relationship with local government is on a good level, as the Minister has Baroness Meacher (CB) [V]: My Lords, I pay tribute said. However, why is it that directors of public health to the Minister for the way he answers all our endless have been complaining for weeks about the lack of questions. I want to raise two issues of huge importance. information? The Minister says that they are getting I understand that the system of track and trace, in the all the information they need, but this has occurred absence of an app, will not be sufficient to prevent a only in the last few weeks. If it is a question of data second national wave of Covid-19. Can the Minister protection legislation, why was emergency legislation tell the House when we will introduce the Google/Apple not put through in the spring to enable local authorities app? Secondly, have the Government assessed the cost to have all the information they clearly need? of full regular community testing, which would involve the entire population being tested weekly? This would Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, it is put to me week in, certainly be costly, but surely it will be infinitely less week out that our relationship with directors of public costly than a second national wave of Covid-19—in health is in some way troubled. I reassure noble Lords terms of the demolition of the economy—particularly that, every single day of the week, we are in contact if we can use the Southampton saliva test. with dozens of directors of public health in amicable, constructive dialogues that lead to concrete action, Lord Bethell [V]: The noble Baroness is entirely local interventions and sharing of data. These right that track and trace on its own, with or without conversations happen in a cordial and friendly fashion. an app, is not enough to prevent a second wave. The The message may have got through to some noble only thing that can do that is the behaviours of the Lords that there is some huge acrimony and difficulty British people themselves. Commitment to hygiene, between us, but that is not the perspective that I have. distancing and isolation is the best bulwark we have The data has got through. It is a hell of a thing to have against this horrible disease. In terms of community put up a huge track and trace system in a few months. testing, given the current level of technology, mass That we can get such detailed data to a large number testing of the entire nation on a weekly basis is beyond of people within the envelope of reasonable data the resources of our technology, testing capabilities security legislation is nothing short of a miracle. I am and, frankly,the tolerance of the British people. However, extremely proud and pay tribute to those involved. as I said in answer to an earlier question, the technology is moving incredibly quickly. It has already moved a Baroness Bull (CB) [V]: My Lords, I want to follow long way in the last few months, and I am hopeful that the noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan, in pointing technologies such as—but not only—the OptiGene to ONS data, this time data showing that 60% of all technology may offer new opportunities. However, deaths from Covid-19 have been among those living they have to be validated, invested in and developed: with disabilities. A recent report from Oxford University they are not on the near-term horizon. and the Bonavero Institute of Human Rights found a failure of government to embed social and human Viscount Eccles (Con): My Lords, I am sure my rights models of disability in its response to the pandemic, noble friend is well aware of the importance of the use and a failure to support people with disabilities to of language in Statements and careful use of language. make the adjustments required to comply with fast- Given the importance of the working relationships changing regulations and to continue to live flourishing between national and local authorities, will my noble lives. Will the Government commit to an immediate friend expand on the assertion that the new powers review of the impact on disabled people of legislation delivered last Saturday will enable local authorities to passed during the coronavirus crisis, and will they put 31 Covid-19: Response [LORDS] Covid-19: Response 32

[BARONESS BULL] or obese. Is it not therefore time for those strangers to in place a disability-inclusive Covid-19 response and the truth in the media and in politics to stop demoralising recovery action plan which involves people with lived the public with their repeated false news, including experience of disabilities in decisions on economic and blaming the Government for the high death rate? social recovery as well as ongoing healthcare guidance? Should we not expect the media and politicians to use their power to support the country and the Prime Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, it is a horrible truth Minister’s campaign to reduce obesity and its that this disease hits hardest those with vulnerabilities. complications, in order to minimise the number of We have put in place a massive national programme to deaths from the next pandemic? seek to protect the most vulnerable, and those with disabilities have been very much the focus of our Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, it is not the feeling in attention. I cannot make the commitments that I the Government that we should duck hard questions know the noble Baroness wants me to make, but I about performance, and we embrace those who ask reassure her that those with disabilities are the focus of difficult questions about how things have gone. None what we are trying to do. the less, the noble Lord is entirely right that the country has a difficult challenge that it needs to face Lord Ribeiro (Con) [V]: My Lords, the up to: that of obesity. It has had a profound effect on Nightingale hospital was mothballed in mid-May and the health of the nation for a generation and we have remains at standby for a second wave of Covid-19, been caught out by Covid, as obesity has undoubtedly having treated just 54 patients since it opened on had an impact on our total death rate. It is a point that 3 April. In a recent report of 19 July, Harrogate the Prime Minister made powerfully in his video earlier Borough Council questioned how the 500-bed field today. That is why we have put together the package hospital based in Harrogate Convention Centre would that we have, and we look to all civic leaders and the be deployed. Given that £3 billion has been allocated media to support us. to maintain the seven Nightingale hospitals until the end of March 2021, and noting that the Harrogate Lord Loomba (CB) [V]: My Lords, we are all aware centre has not treated a single patient since it opened, that more than 45,000 people have died as a result of can my noble friend the Minister say what the strategy Covid-19, and the number is still rising. Is any statistical is for those hospitals? Should they not be designated analysis by gender available,and how will the Government Covid centres to which all local hospitals can refer support the Covid widows who have may lost the their patients, thereby allowing the NHS to resume its breadwinner in their family? routine work and centres such as the London Nightingale hospital, which could reopen in six days with 250 beds, Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, PHE publishes detailed to provide assisted ventilation, hemofiltration and dialysis statistics which give a gender breakdown. I recommend to support seriously ill Covid patients? that the noble Lord has a look at the data. We express our sadness and regret for all those who have passed Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, the Nightingale hospitals away and our support for all those mourning them. have been a huge success in helping us to protect the Lord Bradshaw (LD) [V]: The rail industry is keen NHS at a time when our needs were greatest. Since to introduce a flexible form of season ticket to support then, when prevalence rates were lower, we reallocated a return to rail travel for those who have been working resource into restarting the NHS to gain ground during from home so that they may in future work flexibly. the summer months on our backlog of business-as-usual Will the Minister seek on my behalf assurances from work. Those resources are needed in the hospitals his colleagues in the Department for Transport that where people usually work. The mothballing of the they are treating this matter with urgency and not Nightingale hospitals allows us to use that capacity obstructing it? If he could write to me about that, I for what is most needed right now. would be grateful. Will he also acknowledge the health benefits of getting people out walking, cycling and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]: My Lords, using public transport again, instead of relying solely evidence suggests that obesity doubles a patient’s chance on their cars, which lead to more congestion, more of being hospitalised with the virus,hence the Government pollution and little or no exercise on the part of have put forward a strategy for reducing obesity, which drivers? Further government encouragement would be I welcome. However, they could have introduced a welcome in bringing that about. sugar tax 10 years ago, which might have resulted in fewer obese Britons now. Is that policy under Lord Bethell [V]: The noble Lord is entirely right consideration? that Covid will lead to changes both subtle and profound in the way we do many things in our life, including Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, the obesity package patterns of commuting, and a renewed commitment that the Prime Minister announced today is one of the to modes of transport that support our health, particularly most ambitious, impactful and thoughtful of any cycling and walking. Local authorities such as TfL Government in recent history. We will see how it plays already have strong bicycling and walking plans. Those out and consider new measures when the time is right. will undoubtedly be enhanced, and the Government entirely support them. Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con) [V]: Covid-19 and obesity are so often a fatal combination, and it explains Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con) [V]: My Lords, with the high mortality in the UK, with its dense population an eye to its impact on any autumn resurgence, I hark and the fact that two-thirds of people are either overweight back to questions asked on 11 March by the noble 33 Covid-19: Response [27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 34

Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, and my noble infect and be diagnosed only when it is ready. That is a friend Lord Forsyth, about deep cleansing. My experience simple fact of life. However, the testing regime has a of countries in Asia, such as Singapore and Korea, profound impact on the spread of the disease by which also pioneered mask use, is that they appear to identifying those who have some form of symptom, be much better than us at cleansing medical facilities even if it is a quiet one. I pay tribute to Sir Simon and other risky premises. They use mists and sprays, Stevens, who is working hard to get the NHS back to applied aggressively in the hands of cleaning professionals, business as usual and is having a profound impact on rather than relying on the random impact of risk the issue. assessments,NHS and care home cleaners and controllers, and personal hygiene routines, which the Minister The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) emphasised. What does the latest guidance say about (LD): My Lords, the time allowed for this business has cleaning and cleansing? Can we do better? now elapsed. I apologise to the four speakers who did not have time to put their questions. Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, we can undoubtedly do better in the area of hygiene. The guidance is very 3.05 pm clear on what types of detergents work and how they Sitting suspended. should best be administered. I pay tribute to the cleaning staff in the NHS, who have worked incredibly hard during the epidemic, putting themselves at risk; Arrangement of Business they have done a very good job. None the less, our Announcement view is that the greatest challenge is to change the 3.30 pm behaviours of the British public. Work still needs to be done to persuade all of us to wash our hands more The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) and to maintain cleaner personal hygiene. Transmission (Con): My Lords, the Hybrid Sitting of the House will of the disease happens most often through manual now resume. Some Members are here in the Chamber, contact—touching the face and shaking hands. That respecting social distancing, and others are participating can only be challenged by washing hands. remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. If the capacity of the Chamber is exceeded, I will adjourn Lord Dobbs (Con) [V]: My Lords, Public Health the House immediately. England has been including in its death totals those who once had Covid, recovered, but have since died Parliamentary Constituencies Bill from other causes. So, if you once had the virus but no Second Reading longer have it, and get hit by a bus, you still get listed as a Covid casualty. How can Ministers and others 3.31 pm reach sensible policy decisions when the basic statistics Moved by Lord True provided to them seem so flawed? Has this bizarre practice now stopped? Have Public Health England That the Bill be now read a second time. offered any justification for it? The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) Lord Bethell [V]: The Secretary of State has asked (Con): My Lords, despite several years spent scrutinising Public Health England to review the logging of death legislation in your Lordships’ House—and, indeed, statistics; we await the review’s results. many bad years before that drafting amendments—I must confess that this is the first Bill that I will seek to The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) lead through the House myself. It is a great privilege to (LD): Lord Rogan? We will move quickly on to the do so, and I look forward to working with all your noble Lord, Lord Balfe. Lordships on it in the coming months. Looking at the speakers’ list, I see that I seem to be surrounded by Lord Balfe (Con) [V]: My Lords, on three occasions people responsible for organising most of the successful today the Minister has said that, if you have a Covid and unsuccessful for the past 50 years, so I test today, you are not guaranteed to not have the can be sure that your Lordships’ wisdom will have disease tomorrow. In that case, what on earth is great weight. the purpose of having the test system at all? Secondly, The purpose of this legislation is straightforward the NHS is not functioning properly. Bearing in mind and, in many ways, modest. Its central aim is to enable the precedents of my noble friends Lord Deighton us to achieve the Government’s manifesto commitment and Lady Harding, would it be a good idea for the of delivering updated and equal parliamentary Minister’s department to appoint a specific person to constituencies, and to do so on the basis of there being get the NHS up and running again, as foreseen by my 650 seats in the House of Commons. The Bill is about noble friend Lord Ribeiro in his perceptive question? the composition of the elected Chamber, and it has been backed by the elected Chamber. Lord Bethell [V]: My Lords, we use the tests we have Noble Lords will surely agree that the updating of got because they are the tests we have got. The way in our constituency boundaries is long overdue. The last which the disease manifests itself is not, I am afraid, parliamentary boundary reviews to be implemented in something that I can negotiate with. We do what we the United Kingdom were based on data—that is, the can, but I emphasise that an unfortunate feature of numbers of electors—from the early 2000s. That may this disease—and many others—is that it harbours seem like yesterday to many of us here, but the sobering itself silently in our bodies and manifests itself both to fact is that our youngest voters were not even born 35 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 36

[LORD TRUE] Still on the subject of timing, the Bill enables the then. Our current constituencies reflect how the UK next boundary review—on a one-off basis—to follow was almost two decades ago. In those two decades, our a slightly shorter timetable of two years and seven months. country has changed enormously, having undergone The formal start of the review will be in December of significant demographic and migratory change. We this year and the Boundary Commissions must submit need updated boundaries to reflect that. We also need their final reports by 1 July 2023 at the latest. Bearing to get back on track with boundary reviews that in mind that it takes time for electoral administrators happen and come into effect regularly, routinely and to implement new boundaries; for political parties to reliably. This Bill delivers that and, in so doing, makes reflect them in their structures and for citizens to a number of common-sense and technical changes to become familiar with them, this timing of July 2023 is update the boundary review process and the rules important. It gives us the best chance of there being under which the four Boundary Commissions operate. updated parliamentary constituencies in place ahead of the next general election, whenever that may be. We have engaged with stakeholders, including the The reduction in time is achieved by the Boundary parliamentary parties and electoral administrators, as Commissions expediting some of their processes and the Bill has evolved, and the provisions reflect their by shortening the public consultation process by six input. I appreciate the conversations that I have already weeks, from 24 to 18. been able to have with a number of noble Lords. The Bill also makes a small number of changes to It is important to say from the outset that this is the boundary review process—the nuts and bolts of amending legislation and there are many elements of what happens during a review. First, there is a change the existing legislative framework for boundary reviews to the timing of public hearings. Every boundary that it does not seek to alter. Those elements none the review, as your Lordships know, includes extensive less remain of interest both here and in the other public consultation arranged over three separate periods. place, and I will today touch on the most significant of This engagement with the public and with political them, such as the rules relating to constituency size. parties takes a variety of forms. For example, proposals However, let me start with the things the Bill does can generally be viewed online, and comments submitted do—the common-sense, technical changes. to the Boundary Commissions via their websites or by First, as I mentioned, the Bill provides that future letter. In addition, there are public hearings, events at boundary reviews will be conducted on the basis of which individuals can make representations in person there being 650 parliamentary constituencies. To make to members of their Boundary Commission. The this measure effective, the Bill brings the 2018 boundary commissions for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland review, which would have been the first to be based on must hold between two and five public hearings in 600 constituencies, to a close, without being implemented. their respective nations. The Boundary Commission Noble Lords will remember that the decision to make for England must hold between two and five in each of that reduction to 600 was taken by the coalition the English regions. Government a decade ago. Since the change was brought Under current legislation, public hearings take place into law in 2011, the UK’s electorate has grown and early in the process, during the first of three consultation there have been significant changes in demography. periods. This means that the Boundary Commissions Membersof Parliamentarerepresentingmoreconstituents need to decide locations and book venues before they than ever before, and they are taking on the role of are able to get a sense of where feeling about their scrutinising legislation and overseeing areas of policy, proposals is strongest. During our engagement with such as trade and immigration, that have previously stakeholders, we heard that this timing could be better. been the preserve of the European Parliament. Under The Bill therefore makes provision for public hearings these circumstances, the Government think it right to take place later, during the second consultation that the current 650 constituencies are retained. The period, allowing the commissions to consider the responses House of Commons has assented to that. received during the initial consultation and assess where public hearings are most needed. To make this Connected to this, the Bill also removes an obligation change effective, the length of the consultation periods on the Government to make arrangements to review is adjusted, allowing more time in the second period the effects of reducing the UK constituencies to 600. for the public hearings to occur. As that has not taken place, it cannot meaningfully be analysed. Secondly, the Bill makes some practical changes in relation to the data that the Boundary Commissions Moving on to the frequency of parliamentary use when developing their proposals. Boundary boundary reviews, the Bill provides for future reviews— Commissions look at a variety of data sources. First after the next one, due to start next spring—to take and foremost, they look at numbers of electors so that place every eight years, as opposed to every five years, they can devise constituencies that fit within the size as currently. This new timetable will allow constituency range set by legislation. The Boundary Commissions boundaries to be updated regularly but with less disruption draw information on elector numbers from the electoral to local communities and their MPs as a result of register, generally deriving that data from the version constituencies changing at every general election. Let of the register that exists on the 1 December at the me add that a parliamentary boundary review generally start of a review, known as “the review date”. This takes two years and 10 months from start to finish: it date is picked because it generally falls immediately is a significant exercise. The Government believe that after the completion of the annual canvass, the process every eight years is appropriate for something of this by which electoral registration officers verify entries scale, as did the stakeholders consulted. on the electoral register. I should add here that annual 37 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 38 canvasses are not required in Northern Ireland in the an Order in Council; however, the draft order will no same way, but a revised register is still published every longer require approval by Parliament prior to making. year by the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland. As part of this measure, the Government’s ability to The electorate data drawn from the registers in Scotland, amend the draft Order in Council if rejected by Parliament Wales and England is then checked further by relevant is also removed. government agencies: the National Records of Scotland In the other place, there was a degree of and the Office for National Statistics. The collated misunderstanding about the intentions of this change. information—a complete and current picture of the I assure your Lordships that the purpose of this number of electors in all four nations—is then published measure is straightforward: to bring certainty and centrally by ONS. From this point it is used by the confidence to the citizen and the elector that updated Boundary Commissions. constituencies will be implemented without interference I hope noble Lords will see that the rationale here is and further delay. I suspect that I am not alone in that boundary reviews are based on the most up-to-date, remembering what delay and interference look like; I robust and transparent information on elector numbers. will not touch on anybody’s sensibilities by referring This approach has been in place since the Boundary to episodes in this country’s recent history. Commissions were created in 1944 and we do not seek I am sure that others will have different interpretations to alter it. That said, the Bill makes one change in of the ins and outs of why boundary reviews have relation to electoral data for the next boundary review been delayed in the past, but I hope we can all agree only; I hope that your Lordships will understand that that there is a vulnerability in our current legislation in it does so in direct response to Covid-19. Rather than this regard, and yet also an urgent need for the next being based on the electoral register of 1 December 2020, review to start in good order and deliver updated the next review will use the version of the register from boundaries promptly and reliably. Automaticity is the 2 March 2020, before the pandemic. The aim is to answer to that conundrum, and we are not the only sidestep any potential impact that Covid-19 may have ones to think so. In moving to this system, we draw on on the operation of this year’s canvass or the electoral the experience of countries such as Australia, Canada register. I am pleased to say that this one-off change and New Zealand, where a similar approach is used. has been widely supported. We also heard support in the evidence sessions of Still on the topic of data, as well as elector numbers, the Public Bill Committee in the other place. Witness Boundary Commissions will of course look to devise after witness spoke up for automaticity, including boundaries that reflect the other factors that they may party representatives, the Society take into account, including geographical features, and several academics. As they pointed out, the removal local ties, existing parliamentary constituencies and of Parliament from the end of the boundary review local government boundaries. process in no way alters the fact that Parliament The Bill introduces a change to the way in which remains sovereign and continues to set the rules and the commissions take account of local government parameters within which the Boundary Commissions boundaries. Currently, the commissions can work only operate. The contesting of a parliamentary constituency with local boundaries that have been fully brought will always be about politics, but this Government into effect at an election before the start of a review. believe firmly that the process by which that constituency This means that, in places, a Boundary Commission is proposed, revised and implemented should never be. may be looking back one, two or even three years to I will finish by talking about aspects of the current how the boundaries were at the time of the last local legislation that the Bill does not fundamentally change. election in that area. The key topic here is tolerance. Under existing law, the The Bill changes that. In future, Boundary Boundary Commissions are required to propose Commissions will be able to take account of prospective constituencies that are within plus or minus 5% of the local government boundaries—that is, boundaries that average UK constituency electorate, which is known have been made by an order but not yet used in an as the electoral quota. This provision, which was election—at the review date: the 1 December formal introduced by the 2011 Act, ensures that constituencies start of the review. This measure will help keep across the United Kingdom are broadly equal in size, constituency boundaries better aligned with local within a 10% range of the electoral quota. The government boundaries, where appropriate. For the Government are not changing this because we are next boundary review, it will mean that new local committed to delivering not just updated constituencies government boundaries in London, Hertfordshire, but equal and updated ones. Both goals are crucial. Berkshire, Devon and Cornwall may all be taken into Equal constituencies mean votes that carry equal weight. account where previously they might not have been. Our relies on our electors having confidence We now come to the end of the process: the point that they are fairly represented, yet how can an elector where the Boundary Commissions have done their in Milton Keynes South—one of 97,000—feel fairly work and submitted their final reports. Here, the Bill represented when up the road in Northampton North, introduces what in the marvellous world of policy is their fellow elector is one of only 59,000? described as “automaticity”. Automaticity is simply Within our broad ambition to achieve equal the idea that the recommendations of the Boundary constituencies, we accept that there are a handful of Commissions, developed through the meticulous and locations in the British Isles whose unique geographies consultative process I have described, should be demand a greater degree of flexibility.The law therefore implemented without political influence or interference. includes a limited number of exceptions to the tolerance Recommendations will still be brought into effect by rules. By and large, we are leaving these untouched. 39 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 40

[LORD TRUE] reminds me, voted against our amendment on this For example, the exception that exists for Northern subject, to explain the conundrum. Regrettably, neither Ireland remains in place, allowing in certain limited the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, circumstances for a slightly wider tolerance to be nor the noble Lord, Lord McNally, who steered it applied. This recognises that nation’s small number of though this House, is on the speakers’ list today. constituencies and the disproportionate impact that Anyway, it all means that we are of course delighted to certain rounding effects that result from the allocation see Clause 5, and to give it our wholehearted support. of constituencies to the four nations can have there. Your Lordships would, however, expect us to look Similarly, an exemption for very large, sparsely carefully at the rest of the Bill, to ensure that it populated constituencies also remains in place, as do achieves its objectives and to see whether there are the four protected constituencies that were included in amendments that we would like to table for consideration. the 2011 legislation where the tolerance rules do not Perhaps the major one is something that does affect apply. Those four protected constituencies are Na us, because it is about the role of Parliament. Hitherto, h-Eileanan an Iar, Orkney and Shetland, and two as we have heard, Parliament has had to sign off the constituencies on the Isle of Wight. final proposals from the various boundary commissions. The one change we are making here, following an Indeed, it was, fortunately, because of this very power, amendment supported by the Government, is to add a and the then Government’sinability to get their proposals fifth protected constituency for Ynys Môn—Anglesey. through the other House, that we do not now have a This move addresses an anomaly and has been widely 600-seat Chamber at the other end of this building. welcomed. All the protected constituencies are islands However, suddenly, in this Bill, without any prior and Ynys Môn falls within the range they set in terms consultation, that final backstop role of Parliament of both geographical and electoral size. has vanished—and with it, any possibility for the To conclude, we have before us a Bill whose core Commons to pause the process. Instead, the Executive purpose is electoral equality and fairness, delivered will simply, via an Order in Council, trigger the whole through equal and updated parliamentary constituency sweep of changes. The Government maintain that this boundaries. Debates and witness testimony in the is to keep the procedure completely free of any political other place have revealed a clear consensus that this input. But there will still be political input—from the goal needs to be met—and soon. Weneed constituencies Executive, who retain the ability of tabling or withholding that reflect the electorate as they are now, not as they that Order in Council, because that cannot be instigated were at the turn of the century. by Parliament. The Bill makes sensible and supported improvements So, for the sake of argument, should the Government to the way boundary reviews operate. We are legislating not like the outcome, and should they be planning an for an appropriate number of seats, a better frequency election—since they have also promised to repeal the of reviews, an improved set of review processes and a Fixed-term Parliaments Act—would it not be very more certain method of implementation designed to convenient to hold back that trigger, with Parliament enhance the independence of the impartial Boundary unable to act? The Minister will, I am sure, say that the Commissions. The people of the UK deserve fair Government could do the same now, by delaying a votes; they deserve effective representation; and they statutory instrument—but at least that would be deserve to have trust and certainty in the boundary Parliament’s business, and therefore open to question. review process that delivers those things. Perhaps more fundamental, however, is the idea I commend the Bill to the House. I beg to move. that Parliament—or politics—is somehow a bit grubby, and should not be able to give its final approval to 3.49 pm something of such democratic consequence. Leaving major constitutional decisions to officials, with no Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab): My Lords, parliamentary oversight, is difficult to defend. So I I welcome the Minister introducing his first Bill and I look forward to hearing the Minister—steeped as he is welcome being able to say that I welcome it. Of course, in Parliament and its ways—argue why, in this unique it rectifies a bad mistake made by the coalition, which decision, Parliament should be shut out. sought to reduce the size of Parliament without a corresponding reduction in the size of the Executive My noble friend Lord Lennie, who knows a thing and which reduced the accountability of MPs to their or two about this, will say rather more about the issue constituencies by giving them larger electorates and by of variance later, and will explain why the very small legislating for frequent re-boundarying, making it harder figure of plus or minus 5% is too restrictive to enable to build up the knowledge and contacts that make for the boundary commissions to respect communities effective representation. and geography, and to minimise disruption. Of course, these are matters more for the elected I will simply say two things. First, just as, in this than for your Lordships’ House. But it was ironic that House last time—thanks to the Lord Speaker,I think—we the reduction of the size of that House was to happen respected the Isle of Wight’s geography, and this time, just as this one grew disproportionately by the addition thanks to a Conservative MP, Ynys Môn, or Anglesey, of Members who were here for life and—like all of us has been preserved as a seat, so we should enable the —neither removable nor accountable. It was hard to boundary commissions to respect equally important understand the rationale for that, so I look forward to geographical realities, particularly in Wales. hearing former members of the coalition Government— I lived in Anglesey,in Bodedern, for a time—albeit I was particularly the seven Lib Dems due to speak today, of unable to vote for Cledwyn Hughes, later Baron Cledwyn whom three are in the Chamber—who, as Hansard of Penrhos, as in those bygone days the voting age was 21, 41 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 42 which I had not yet attained. So I know the island, and first-past-the-post electoral system cheats voters. Some I feel its identity and cohesion. But I also know this in party supporters have to be hugely more numerous to and around my maternal home of Ystradgynlais. My secure representation than others. In December 2019, noble friend Lady Gale will say more about the valleys it took 33 times as many to secure an MP for one party and their identity, as well as their travel challenges, in when compared with another,so the worst ratio inequality due course—things that necessitate some extra leeway was a staggering 33:1. We will have to return to this to preserve community ties. when we have a more comprehensive opportunity to That brings me to the second point on variance. In make our system more fit for purpose, perhaps when their determination to have numerically equal electorates the promised constitution, democracy and rights per seat, the Government have forgotten that MPs commission is up and running. represent communities, not just individuals. MPs’ We can agree to some features of this Bill. The understanding of their local companies and schools, retention of the 650 MPs is now logical, and so too is the local authority, the swimming pools, the universities, the eight years between each review and redistribution; the sports teams, the churches, the charities, the culture that is helpful. The base date for electoral registration and local history, means that they are embedded in the totals is certainly sensible, and the overall emphasis on lives of their constituencies in a way that pure numerical avoiding unnecessary, frequent and disruptive changes determination fails to understand. So we will ask the is very welcome indeed. That is the area which requires Government to think again about the degree of flexibility the most improvement in the Bill. For a start, Parliament allowed to the boundary commissions. must give a firm instruction to the Boundary Commissions There are just two other points to make. One, in the to avoid, wherever practicable, crossing top-tier local context of this attempt to reach exact figures in each authority boundaries. The classic case is the historic seat, is to remind the Minister that some 9 million— boundary that gives unrivalled integrity to Cornwall. perhaps 20%—of those entitled to vote are missing The River Tamar provides a much better boundary from the register. That is a rough average of 10,000 per with England than either Scotland or Wales currently constituency. Given how many are missing altogether, enjoy. Even the Conservative MPs there now seem to that makes the obsession with the last 3,500—that is, have lost their enthusiasm for a “Devonwall” seat. of course, a smaller number for the 5%, now that we There are other examples. Crossing city boundaries have 650 seats rather than 600—a little hard to understand. to avoid splitting wards within them is manifestly absurd, Equally important for the representation of people encumbering MPs, the cities themselves and their citizens in the Commons is that many simply do not get the with totally avoidable confusion. MPs seem to have chance to vote. The Electoral Commission recommended accepted that splitting large wards is preferable to automatic voter registration, and the Select Committee creating constituencies that straddle more than one of your Lordships’ House on the Electoral Registration upper-tier local authority area, but the Bill must be and Administration Act 2013 recommended urgent totally explicit on this objective. action to tackle under-registration, including piloting However, this gives added weight to the case for automatic registration for attainers. So perhaps the more realistic and flexible tolerances. As the independent Minister could respond to this proposal in advance of academic evidence to the Commons Public Bill Committee our tabling the relevant amendments. from Dr David Rossiter and Professor Charles Pattie, Secondly, as we look to the future and to an election drawing on the much-respected work of the late Professor in, say, four years’ time—although the early date of Ron Johnston, made clear, the first boundary review makes me think the next “Ward splitting certainly helped to reduce the amount of election might be a little earlier—we have the space disruption, but in our estimates it did not reduce disruption now to extend the franchise to 16 and 17 year-olds, anything like as much as widening the tolerances moderately.” whose lives will be affected by decisions in the Commons. This is the core issue. Given that updated analysis shows I urge the Government not to dismiss this call but to that the previously alleged distortion between the give very careful thought to the planet, and the country, electorates and voting in Conservative and Labour-held that we will leave to them, and to whether it is right to constituencies is now less significant and due more to give those 16 and 17 year-olds a say over who will take registration levels,third-party activity and turnout as much the decisions that shape their lives. But for the moment as to any other factor, the disruption factor is all- we welcome the Bill, which will rectify a bad mistake, important. Again, the academic evidence given to the and I look forward to the speeches that will follow Commons Public Bill Committee is absolutely explicit: today, as well as to our discussions in Committee. “Most of the bias that has caused comment and concern in recent years has come from other sources that are nothing to do 3.59 pm with the constituency size issue.” Lord Tyler (LD) [V]: My Lords, it is not my usual MPs on the Committee seemed to accept that and to source for a wise text, but I shall begin with a quote be anxious to avoid massive pointless disruption. from the Conservative manifesto of December 2019— I know from my own experience how important this significantly not repeated by the Minister this afternoon. is both for MPs and for their constituents. Between my We do believe that we should be first period in 1974 and my return in 1992, there was a “making sure that every vote counts the same—a cornerstone of massive change in Cornwall; only the long-suffering democracy.” residents in the Bodmin area had to have me as their However,we remind the Government that any variance MP twice. Elementary arithmetic reveals that the tight in the number of electors in UK constituencies pales 5% margins either side of the desirable electorate changes into insignificance when compared with the way the when—[Inaudible]—650 constituencies, compared with 43 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 44

[LORD TYLER] 129 Members of the Scottish Parliament, 60 Members the 600 in the previous legislation. With a few hundred of the Senedd Cymru, 12 more Members at Stormont, variables, the whole political geography can change. 25 Members of the GLA, 41 police and crime Several constituencies can experience a knock-on effect commissioners, and elected mayors in Merseyside, and established representation links can be arbitrarily Manchester, Watford, Bedford, Teesside and the like. destroyed. A 5% tolerance invites regular disruption and Then, of course, we have 792 Members of this House ever-present insecurity. No MP with integrity wants which, sadly, is just about to be heavily inflated, a that. decision that I greatly regret, particularly given that so For example, the proposed extension of the franchise many of the people who will be undertaking that to more UK citizens overseas, which is planned to take process had said themselves that they wanted to reduce place while this review is under way, could distort many the burden of government on individuals. of the new proposals, given such narrow room for Where I agree with the comments of the noble manoeuvre. As more people from the EU achieve UK Baroness, Lady Hayter, is that if we have a certain citizenship, that too can alter local totals. We will want number of Members of Parliament, we should also to examine meticulously the case for a 7.5%, 8% or have control over the Executive. We have much larger 10% tolerance, and it looks like the Labour Party will Houses than most other . If we reduce the support us in re-examining those tolerance levels. My number of MPs to what I believe to be an acceptable noble friends would also have wished to have emphasised level, there should be some way of acknowledging the the need for greater effort to improve the completeness control of the Executive. That is the job of both these of the register and to bring it into closer alignment Houses. But at the same time as we have been adding with the census. They will wish to examine the special elected bodies in one form or another,depending on how geographical factors at work in Scotland and Wales. you make the calculations we currently have 120 Ministers This Bill is an improvement in a number of respects. and Whips, a not quite record 42 Parliamentary Private However, it will succeed only if a realistic approach is Secretaries, and 109 special advisers—a number that adopted to prevent excessive disruption, to preserve in itself is up from 27 in 1987, almost the same point at consistency and to respect historic integrity. Ironically, which the legislation was passed. in a different era, that would have been described as We should reduce the number of people who govern conservatism. this country, not just stabilise the total at 650. Given that I read the Sunday Times yesterday, I hope that 4.05 pm soon—possibly in Committee—we might have what Lord Hayward (Con): My Lords, first, I hope that I one might describe as a Quentin Letts amendment. We am correct in wishing the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, a should restrict the numbers in this place and the happy birthday. Secondly, I echo the comments of the Commons. noble Lord, Lord Tyler,about the sad death of Professor Ron Johnston, who would have given evidence to the 4.10 pm committee in the other place had he not died so tragically only a few days before he was due to do so. He was a Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB) [V]: [Inaudible]— man of great and impartial expertise, to whom the proposal for the implementation of reports of Boundary political geography of redistribution came so naturally— Commissions with what has been described as and so charmingly to everyone he spoke to. automaticity,without the current parliamentary approval Given the brevity that we are required to maintain in and, therefore, it is said, without the possibility of the debate, at this stage I intend to speak on only one political influence or interference at that stage. In aspect of the Bill: Clause 5, on the number of Members future, unless Parliament changes primary legislation of Parliament. No doubt I will return to other more at the time of a report’s publication, it will cease to contentious matters at a later stage, such as automaticity, have a role. It is said we are drawing on the experience quotas and the like, but I should add that I broadly of successful examples elsewhere, in New Zealand, support the other elements of the Bill as they stand. Canada and Australia. We have too large a political class in this country. It The consequence of this change must be to move has inflated beyond a level that is acceptable in a the focus of any risk of political interference to the modern western democracy.I am therefore disappointed Boundary Commission, as the final decision will no to see that we are moving away from 600 MPs, a number longer be for Parliament. This means that any risk of which, as far as I was concerned, was far too many. In interference may move to the commission and the his opening comments, the Minister justified moving process of appointing it. It is therefore essential that back to 650 MPs in part because of . I would have the commission is not only independent but seen to be sympathy with that argument were it not for the fact independent and appointed independently. that when we went into the EU, no one suggested that As noble Lords know, commissions are chaired we should reduce the number of Members of Parliament. by the deputy chairman in each jurisdiction, who has When we went into the EU, and when the last EU to be a High Court judge. In Scotland the deputy legislation was passed in 1986, we had only two elected chairman is appointed by the head of the judiciary, bodies in the United Kingdom, one in Stormont and the Lord President, and in Northern Ireland by the one in Westminster. The 1986 Act states: head of the judiciary there, the Lord Chief Justice of “The number of constituencies in Great Britain shall not be Northern Ireland. However, that is not the position in substantially greater or less than 613.” England and Wales. The appointment is not by the We currently have 19 more MPs than the Act head of the judiciary, the Lord Chief Justice, but by recommended, and since 1986 we have added the Lord Chancellor, a government Minister. 45 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 46

For England and Wales,this anomaly—which pre-dates elected constituency MPs and a proportional top-up—but the change to the position of the Lord Chancellor in we have had a referendum on that. We had a referendum 2005—must be changed, in my view, so that the deputy in 2011, and whereas I was very open to exploring the chairman is no longer appointed by a government results of the 2016 referendum, which was close and Minister but, as in Scotland and Northern Ireland, by not on a precise proposition, the 2011 referendum on the head of the judiciary. Although, of course, the the alternative vote was on a very precise proposition Lord Chancellor consults the Lord Chief Justice, in and has been enacted by Parliament—and it was the light of the proposed change brought about by this decisive; 69% voted against it. Bill in effecting automaticity, that is no longer sufficient. My strong advice to my friends on the Lib Dem That is because it is necessary to ensure that the Benches is: do not go there. The way the progressive independence of the judiciary is not undermined by parties in this country will come to power in future is any perception of partisanship or political influence in not by chimera ideas of electoral reform but by winning the appointment. It must be seen to be wholly independent an election under the existing system. That is what we of the political Minister that the Lord Chancellor should devote our attention to doing. now is. My noble friend’s points were all well made and I At the same time it seems necessary to change the agreed with them all. I amplify her final point about appointment of the two other commissioners. Professor votes at 16. It is not clear to me what the Government’s Hazell and Dr Renwick of the Constitution Unit at policy is in respect of allowing the House of Commons University College London set out a number of a free vote; perhaps he could elucidate that for us in his alternatives in their evidence to the House of Commons reply. It looks as if on a free vote there probably is a Committee in June 2020. In agreement with them, I majority now in the House of Commons for a voting urge that the preference should be the appointment age of 16. made by an independent committee, including the Not only has the time clearly come for votes at 16— deputy chairman, as is present practice. That committee the group that wants representation and has a democratic should then put forward a single name to the Minister, right to it that is most unrepresented in our institutions with a power to reject only if written reasons are at the moment is young people, particularly 16 and given. That has proved a very effective mechanism for 17 year-olds—but it should go hand in hand with two the independent appointment of judges. other reforms.First, young people should be automatically If the commission’s decisions are, in effect, to be registered at their place of study, which used to happen final and binding through automaticity and protected when I was a student. Then, all universities would from political interference, the appointment process automatically register all their students. The move must be independent and therefore seen to be free of towards individual registration has served to keep a lot the risk of any perception of political interference and of young people off the electoral roll. If we are to influence. reduce the voting age to 16, the other change I would make is to have a polling station in every place of 4.14 pm study—every school with a sixth form, every college Lord Adonis (Lab): My Lords, I have great respect and every university. The combination of those three for the noble Lords, Lord Hayward and Lord Tyler, reforms—votes at 16, automatic registration and a but I had difficulty following some of their points. polling booth in every place of study—would transform On the point from the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, the representation of young people and we would be a about the size of the House of Commons, it has healthier society for it. historically always had about 650 Members. A century ago, it was larger at 707 Members; it has come down in 4.18 pm size over that period. I do not think it excessively large Lord Rennard (LD) [V]: My Lords, the Parliamentary for exactly the reasons my noble friend gave: we have Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 was the an unusually large Executive in this country, partly subject of the fiercest and longest debates I have because we are a unitary state. We do not have devolved witnessed in this House. At the time my party was government in England. Maybe we should have a seeking a route to change to the AV voting system smaller Government than 100-odd members, but as through a referendum, while the Conservative Party long as such a large proportion of the governing party was seeking to address what it wrongly considered to are members of the Executive—about a third of the be a bias against it in the system. My party failed to Members of the governing party in the House of persuade people to vote for its preferred option in that Commons are members of the Executive—I see no referendum, and the Conservative Party failed to persuade alternative to a House of Commons about the same either House of Parliament to accept the proposals for size we have at the moment. new constituency boundaries in 2013 and knew it As for the House of Lords, I think the noble Lord’s would fail again with those of 2018—so the 2011 Act memory is somewhat short. It was the last Labour must be replaced. But to say that this Bill has been Government who dramatically decreased the size of approved by the other place means only that it has the House of Lords by removing most of the hereditary been approved by the Conservative Party. Peers. The House of Lords is now much smaller than The Bill before us is better than that of 2011 in that it has been for most of recent history. it retains 650 constituencies and proposes reviews As for what the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said, I am a every eight years, not every five, but the basis of it supporter of electoral reform. I support the mixed remains flawed in at least two major respects. First, we member system that Britain introduced into Germany still have a hopelessly inadequate system of voter after 1945 to get the best balance between directly registration, which provides the building blocks for 47 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 48

[LORD RENNARD] are based on data that is two decades old. Given the drawing boundaries. Secondly, as we can see from the increase in population and changing demographics last two aborted review processes, the tiny variation of experienced across the United Kingdom, we need a just 5% permitted to the quota for electorates in each Parliament that reflects that change. The next review constituency will prevent the creation of sensible will use the latest electoral information and return the constituencies based on recognised communities and current number of constituencies, ensuring that we will result in major disruption to many constituency have a Parliament that reflects modern Britain, providing boundaries with every review. the electorate of the United Kingdom with equal and In 2015 the Political and Constitutional Reform Select fair votes and representation, and delivering for the Committee concluded that a variation of 7.5% or British people. 8% would be consistent with the government aims and The Bill has two changes which I particularly welcome: with avoiding these problems. We see from the 2013 first, that the Boundary Commissions are mandated and 2018 proposals how this inflexible figure of 5% results to redraw the constituencies every eight years; and in great changes to many constituencies even though secondly, that future reviews allow prospective local both sets of proposals were for the same number of government boundaries to be considered alongside seats. It was argued in the other place that splitting existing ones, helping to minimise the lack of alignment local government wards could limit this disruption, of council wards with parliamentary boundaries. but an excellent and detailed note from the Boundary The Bill was passed by the other place with only Commission for England explained very carefully and two government-backed amendments, one to make in detail why splitting wards is not practical on a Ynys Môn a protected constituency and the other widespread basis. This time we must properly address to ensure that the next review is based on electoral the problem of being unable to create sensible data taken in March this year. Otherwise, the Bill was constituencies all within the 5% quota and which will passed without further amendment—by Members otherwise often cross county and other local government who were returned by the electorate of this country boundaries and involve major disruption to boundaries, only a few months ago, in a historic election in which splitting up many constituencies every time a review is this Government won an 80-seat majority with a conducted. promise to modernise parliamentary boundaries as part of a manifesto which this Bill is designed to Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con): I remind noble deliver. Lords of the advisory speaking time of three minutes. 4.24 pm We must finish at 8.30 pm tonight and we have a 60-Member list, so we need to get on. Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB) [V]: I agree with the Minister that it would be absurd to fight the next 4.21 pm election on boundaries that are a quarter of a century old, but let us not exaggerate the good that the Bill Baroness Pidding (Con) [V]: My Lords, one of the does. It will not give every citizen an equal say in the many privileges of being a Member of this place is nation’s affairs. It cannot while we hang on to first past having opportunities, such as we have this afternoon, the post, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, reminded us, to have a role in determining the structure and process and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, reminded us, of our democracy. As unelected Peers, this is even while we reject automatic registration, leaving off the more of a privilege, and one that we must use with register 9 million eligible people,primarily poorer,younger considerable care. and from minority-ethnic communities. Automatic I welcome this Bill for many reasons, some of which registration works elsewhere. Democracy demands it have already been expressed. It seeks to learn the lessons here. of the ill-fated 2018 Boundary Commissions review. My chief concern is the cohesion of the kingdom. By streamlining the review process, not only will future We are told that Scotland will lose three seats and reviews be concluded more efficiently, but the Boundary Wales will lose eight seats. Are we sure that statistical Commissions’ recommendations will be provided in a tidiness makes political sense? Right now, I oppose politically neutral pathway for implementation. Some the 2011 Act, which would have culled six Scottish noble Lords will find the idea of the recommendations seats, so of course I welcome Clause 5, but it does not being implemented by an Order in Council rather than address the elephant in the room: the growing perception by parliamentary procedure uncomfortable. However, in Scotland, Wales, and now, strikingly, in Northern I ask them to consider the result that party politics can Ireland—because of the Johnson frontier in the Irish have on this process, as we saw in the last Parliament. Sea—that the voices of the smaller nations go unheard. The Bill will not only allow the Boundary Commissions’ The Bill will not weaken and may slightly strengthen recommendations to be implemented but, as the Minister that perception. said, put us in line with our sister parliamentary If it were not against the spirit of the age, I would democracies of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. suggest that the Government reflect on the allocation I do not think that it will be easily argued that this of seats in the European Parliament, which has from process has undermined their democracies. the start favoured smaller member states, as has the However, the main purpose of the Bill is not to steal Council’s voting systems. If it were not against their good ideas from our overseas cousins, but to deliver perceived party interests, the Government could have for the British people up-to-date and equal parliamentary proposed amending Schedule 2 to the 1986 Act to boundaries, as promised in the Government’s manifesto. allow the Boundary Commissions to consider the The current parliamentary constituency boundaries additional criterion of peripherality, and to take more 49 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 50 account of sparsity of population. The more distant a 4.30 pm constituency, the harder the job of representing it. To Lord Young of Cookham (Con) [V]: My Lords, I drive to the highland constituency represented for so welcome the Bill so ably introduced by my noble long by Lord Maclennan of Rogart, whom we greatly friend, even though the 1986 Act that it amends abolished miss, would take 12 hours; to drive across it would the Ealing Acton constituency I represented for 23 years, take two more hours. For distant rural seats, it would making me politically homeless until the good voters make sense to widen the permitted 5% variation. of North West Hampshire offered me their hospitality. To do so makes sound strategic sense if we really think that our endangered union is precious. The most controversial aspect of the Bill is its “Magnanimity in politics is not seldom the truest wisdom”. so-called automaticity.Some Peers do not like this because it goes too far; my concern is exactly the opposite I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord True, knows his —that it does not go far enough. The Government Burke. contend that this change will “provide certainty that the recommendations of the independent 4.27 pm and impartial boundary commissions will be implemented without Lord Hain (Lab) [V]: My Lords, the noble Lord, political influence or interference from either government or Lord Kerr, made some powerful points. Until now, the Parliament”. principle of constituency equalisation has been applied This is a worthy objective. Many noble Lords will by the Boundary Commissions in a fair and sensible remember—my noble friend Lady Pidding referred to way, taking proper account of local views, community it—how the Labour Party and the Lib Dems, here and identity and geographical sparsity, instead of being in another place, joined up to postpone the boundary rigidly straitjacketed, as this Bill requires, and damaging recommendations in 2013, even though they implemented Wales more than anywhere else, as my noble friend legislation put on the statute book by . Lady Hayter has said. Noble Lords with longer memories will recall, in 1969, Jim Callaghan laid the necessary order in the Commons In no other nation or region of Britain, proportionate and then invited his party to vote it down, described to the population, are there such large and remote by Callaghan’s official biographer as a “a cynical areas and vast rural areas with many thousands more partisan manoeuvre” sheep than people and constituencies of many hundreds of square miles. Yet under this Bill, four existing and geographically large constituencies across mid, west “pragmatic delay, untrammelled by principle”. and north Wales could well become two monster ones He was said in later life to have regretted what he did. of thousands of square miles each. The Prime Minister Those two examples show the importance of insulating can drive across his constituency in five to 10 minutes, the Boundary Commission from political interference, but it takes a couple of hours or more to drive from but the Bill does not do this, because Clause 2 retains one corner of the current Brecon and Radnorshire the words constituency to another. “as soon as reasonably practicable”, Moreover,before 2010, every Parliament and Boundary referring to the interval before the Government lays Commission understood and accepted an elementary the Order in Council to give effect to the recommendations verity about former coal-mining Welsh valleys: that you of the Boundary Commission. This was the point made cannot communicate with the next valley by the shortest by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. Any Government route, because that is over the top of the mountain. could undermine the purpose of the Bill by simply not You must travel to the top or bottom and go around. doing this. Communities in each of these valleys have different histories and identities, including, importantly, on the We have a recent example of exactly this happening. . Parliament first decided in an Act in 1944 The Boundary Commission submitted its last report —well over 70 years ago—that because of Wales’s in September 2018 and, under the law, Ministers should uniqueness, there should be no fewer than 35 seats. have laid the order “as soon as practicable”. It still has This Bill will result in an arbitrary cut of fully a fifth, not been laid nearly two years later. No one could from 40 to 32 seats in Wales. argue that it was not practicable to have done so, but there has been no legal challenge. What would prevent Most offensive is the way that the Bill sweeps a future Government, who find the recommendations away local democracy. For generations, constituency not to their liking, simply not laying the order? boundaries have been reviewed and adjusted by local agreement not central diktat. Local people have had I ask my noble friend whether he will look kindly the opportunity to object if community identities were on an amendment in Committee to replace the words threatened or unsuitable mergers with nearby towns “as soon as practicable” with a specific time limit to or villages were proposed, but the Bill has unilaterally remove the possibility of gerrymandering and achieve dumped this for a rigid formula, with Wales most the objective of the Bill, as set out in the quotation I punitively hit. referred to. That would thereby achieve objectives that I otherwise wholeheartedly support. The original, fairer, more transparent and consensual boundary review system should be restored. Equalisation 4.33 pm should not be applied in such a dogmatic, rigid and politically discriminatory fashion; then we could have Lord Greaves (LD): My Lords, I am not grateful to a fair and democratic boundaries Bill, not this unfair the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, for reminding noble one, which rides roughshod over local community Lords that it is my birthday, but I thank him for the views, especially in Wales. commemoration anyway. At my age, I try to forget 51 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 52

[LORD GREAVES] to ensure the completeness and accuracy of the electoral about it. I agree entirely with my noble friends Lord Tyler registers, the key data for future boundary reviews. In and Lord Rennard, so I will try not to repeat what they our committee hearings, as mentioned by the noble said. I have to say to the Labour Party that, if we want, Baroness, Lady Hayter, and other noble Lords, we we could spend the whole of the Bill refighting battles heard in evidence that millions of eligible voters are and arguments from 2011. I do not think that would missing from the registers. The UK lags behind other be useful, because we need to co-operate to scrutinise countries in addressing this issue. We heard that there carefully the legislation that the present Government are regional disparities and that underrepresentation are putting forward. That requires us to work together. was more likely among certain demographic groups, The 2011 legislation, the Parliamentary Voting System including the BAME community,the young and students, and Constituencies Act, was a shambles in almost the disabled and those in care homes. The committee every respect—while it was taking place, in this House specifically drew attention to the serious implications and in the way it came out, on all sides. We should of this on the work of reviewing parliamentary boundaries learn from that. It teaches a great deal of lessons that and achieving the level playing field we all want. are not for today about how to work coalitions, should Talk of completeness and accuracy of electoral there ever be another one, and their internal workings. registers may sound esoteric to some, but it certainly The shambles were a direct result of the internal goes to the heart of much of the wider political debate structure of the coalition, which was far too top-down about trust in the democratic process, regional disparities, and dependent on negotiations and deals done between race and inequality. I urge the Minister to prioritise two people, who did not know much about many of work to improve the electoral registration process and the things they were dealing with. ensure that the wider aims of the Bill can be achieved The 5% is important. I have no problems with the in the longer term. Bill increasing the number of constituencies back to 650. I have no problems with 650, and could not understand 4.40 pm why everybody was getting so worked up and agitated about the difference between 600 and 650. If people Lord Empey (UUP) [V]: My Lords, there are many want to reduce it to 300 or 350, it would be something positive aspects to the Bill, but I will concentrate on a to talk about. I would not agree, but it would be an couple of points. First, with regard to who finally argument worth fighting if you did. This 600 to 650 is decides, we have a view in this country that if you neither here nor there, nor worth talking about. appoint an outside body, everybody on it is therefore However, it will not help in Lancashire, where the independent and impartial. The trouble with that is two proposals were both very similar.People are restricted that they are not accountable; for better or ill, Members to 5% and, because they had to start somewhere—and of the House of Commons are. It would be worth they started on the coast and came inland—by the time looking again at this proposal because, if a body is they got to the Pennines, it was a complete botch-up. accountable, the political decision clearly lies there. Since we will probably lose a seat because of the We cannot push all our key decisions to third parties changes from present, I do not think it will make and not be prepared to take tough decisions ourselves. much difference. We can talk about that in Committee. While there is, of course, self-interest in having the I have used up my time. All I will say is: if we and the power to decide, that is what the House of Commons Labour Party want something sensible from the Bill, is there for. Members are elected to the House of let us work together. Commons to take decisions, not to farm them out to somebody else. 4.36 pm There is an issue about flexibility. Having equal constituencies and votes of equal weight is an impossibility Lord Janvrin (CB) [V]: My Lords, I was a member when you have already set aside special circumstances of the Select Committee on the Electoral Registration for geography, which I fully accept. It is an unachievable and Administration Act 2013, which reported earlier dream. this month. I intervene in this debate to underline that some of the key conclusions of that Select Committee I would like the Minister to run over another issue. report bear directly on the aims of the Bill. We have four boundary commissions. Why? We are talking about seats in the House of Commons—a As the Minister stated, the Government wish by the UK-wide Parliament. Following the recent 2018 review Bill to deliver their manifesto commitment to have of parliamentary boundaries, our Boundary Commission “updated and equal UK Parliamentary boundaries … making for Northern Ireland was taken to court and lost the sure that every vote counts the same”. case. It was said that it had fettered its discretion. We The process to determine this level playing field that can achieve the same goal of having local input by would achieve this depends crucially on the quality of having people from all four nations on a boundary the data used, in particular the completeness and commission. We did that recently with the formation accuracy of the electoral registers. The Government of the agriculture commission. So we need to look at clearly recognise the importance of good data; as has that. If people think that our boundary commission is been stated, it was one of the reasons for introducing so good at local knowledge, it came up with a constituency this legislation and it led the Government to introduce that looked like a sausage—it had neither shape nor the new Clause 8 in the Bill. make nor any coherence to it. So I am not convinced But the Government need to think about going that having four outfits trying to do the job of one is further. They need to address the important finding of necessarily the best wayforward. Perhaps that is something our committee report that much more should be done we can look at in Committee. 53 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 54

In general I support the Second Reading, but there 4.46 pm are some very good points to argue. Farming decisions Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab) [V]: Like out to third parties is not necessarily the best way to many who have spoken, I welcome the Bill. The first do things. eight clauses are probably the meat of it. I will try to touch on a few points on Clauses 2, 4, 5 and 8. 4.43 pm Clause 2 touches on the need for the approval of both Houses. This is sensible, as can be clearly seen. Viscount Trenchard (Con) [V]: My Lords, I thank If we had not had a system of the approval of both my noble friend the Minister for introducing this Houses when the previous discussions about the Second Reading debate. In general, I welcome the Bill boundary changes and the move to 600 went through, and it is well overdue. the changes would already be in place. So needing the I am not sure that the reasons given to overturn the approval of both Houses is both sensible and a very decision to reduce the number of MPs from 650 to 600 good backstop. are very convincing. There are many parliamentary I have a question on Clause 4 regarding public democracies with larger populations but smaller numbers hearings, which I do not think has been touched on of elected representatives than is the case with our yet, and the move from the first to the second consultation. House of Commons here at Westminster. It is sensible for input on the public consultation to be A better reason for retaining 650 seats is that it in the second round. That will allow communities and should allow more existing constituencies to continue parties to have sight of other proposals that are made. with their current boundaries, or with relatively minor My concern would be with the boundary commission changes. The continuing coherence of our parliamentary having more set plans and being less able to effect or constituencies is more important than it is given credit bring forward changes if we have already gone through for in most commentary on the Bill that I have read. the first part of it. Most importantly,public consultations The previous proposals under the Boundary Commission’s need to be fair, open and transparent. report of 2018 would have resulted in the boundaries I have another point on Clause 5 with regard to the of a large number of constituencies no longer voice of the smaller nations. I completely understand corresponding precisely to local authorities’ boundaries. and get the idea of moving to constituencies of a This would have been regrettable. similar size. The 5% plus or minus will make it very I have been president of the North East Hertfordshire difficult to fit in more council boundaries, so looking Conservative Association for many years. Our members to move that would be sensible. However, my point were not at all happy that the constituency was to be goes back to what the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and renamed Letchworth and Royston, because it was my noble friend Lord Hain said about the nations. expected to incorporate small parts of both Bedfordshire Currently, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have and Cambridgeshire. There are other towns in the 117 constituencies, with London and the south-east constituency with their own characteristics, and very having 156. These proposals will change it so that many electors did not identify with either Letchworth Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will have 106 and or Royston. London and the south-east will have 164. That will further Most people still identify with their county. It was a endanger the unity of the union. Other considerations pity that, under the 2018 plan, many constituencies could be brought into the Bill with regard to rural would have had to drop the reference to their county constituencies that are distant from Westminster, et from their new name. My Member of Parliament, my cetera, that would trump the size of the constituencies. right honourable friend Sir , at present Finally, on 23 July Jon Cruddas MP wrote to the has to deal with only Hertfordshire County Council Prime Minister raising real concerns about Havering and two district councils, North Hertfordshire and Council’s Conservative group and conversations about East Hertfordshire. Under the 2018 plans, he would the gerrymandering of boundaries. That obviously also have had to deal with councils in both Bedfordshire brings back for all of us memories of the wilful and Cambridgeshire. misconduct that happened in Westminster City Council. I raise this to put it on the record as a concern. It needs I have some sympathy with those who believe that to be addressed and dealt with. there should be slightly more flexibility than the maximum 5% deviation from the average electorate to ensure 4.50 pm that there is a smaller number of incoherent constituencies Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD) [V]: My Lords, crossing local authority boundaries. Indeed, one of I begin by adopting the observations made by my the strongest arguments for the first past the post noble friends Lord Rennard and Lord Tyler. I will system, which I support, is that there is one Member take up the issue on which the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, representing all electors in one coherent single-Member commented, in which he was dismissive of those of constituency. us who argue for proportional representation. I wonder I ask my noble friend to confirm that, at present, whether he understands that it takes a Green MP the high sheriff of a county is the returning officer for 33 times the number of votes as an SNP MP to be all parliamentary constituencies in his or her county. elected to the House of Commons. Mr Farage’s party Where a constituency will in future straddle two counties, fought a general election and got 3.5 million votes, who will decide which of the two high sheriffs will and yet it did not have a single representative in the discharge this duty? Commons. How would the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, I am generally happy and agree with the Bill’s other deal with that problem while we wait for the remarkable provisions. achievement of all the opposition parties coming together? 55 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 56

[LORD CAMPBELL OF PITTENWEEM] are treated equally. I point out to the Minister that I certainly support voting for 16 and 17 year-olds in surely the best way to help those who are systemically this context. If your Lordships have any doubt about disadvantaged is systemically, and that therefore we that, accept one of those outreach engagements and urgently need automatic voter registration. go and talk to a class of 16 year-olds. You will find I agree with the comments of the noble Lord, that they know just as much as anyone else about Lord Adonis, about 16 year-olds. However, up to that political issues and about the remedies which might be point, boundaries should be based on census data to used to deal with them. improve representation in areas with lower registration. I am also of the view that the less influence that In any case, MPs represent everyone in their constituency, Parliament has, the better it will be for the system. I whoever they are. What we do not require is forcing think the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, referred a little voters to provide photographic ID at polling stations, earlier to something being grubby. Nothing has been when voter fraud was committed by 0.000063% of the grubbier than the fact that successive Governments of population, and 3.5 million people do not have photo ID. all colours, including the coalition, were willing to On parliamentary oversight, I agree with the disregard the obvious way—the orthodox way—in Constitution Unit when it says that allowing politicians which the reports of the Boundary Commission should any role in ratifying or blocking proposals runs counter be dealt with. In that respect, I am much attracted by to any democratic principle and that, irrespective of the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, the voting system we currently have for general elections, that the way in which to deal with the Order in we clearly need the boundaries reviewed and based on Council is to make its laying subject to a time limit. up-to-date data. However, it also says that Finally, I come back to the issue of 650 constituencies “automatic implementation is clearly appropriate only if the rather than 600. The coalition Government took office review process itself is genuinely independent of any improper back in 2010, and a great deal has happened in those interference.” 10 years. What has happened for Members of Parliament So there is yet another question of trust: how confident is that access to the internet has increased to an can we be that that will be the case? Again, that would exponential degree among the public, and the contents be less of a problem with PR because the review of what we as MPs used to describe as our postbags process would be more straightforward, with less at has increased to a quite remarkable extent. That the stake politically, and, as a matter of course, no doubt, demands are greater than they have ever been is reflected all sides would encourage frequent consultation with in the fact that IPSA has consistently raised the amount communities, and at an early stage in that process. of money available to Members of Parliament for their staff. I favour some of the other parts of the Bill 4.56 pm but I hope that we will have the opportunity to consider Lord Mancroft (Con): My Lords, I welcome this these issues later in Committee. Bill to address the inconsistencies in the composition of constituencies. I shall keep my remarks as brief as I 4.53 pm can in view of the inordinate length of the speakers’ The Earl of Clancarty (CB) [V]: My Lords, the list. problem with a first past the post system is that there It is ridiculous that in a modern, vibrant democracy, is no such thing as a fair constituency, let alone a fair we still operate elections to the House of Commons constituency boundary. I am not a historian in these based on data from 2000, and 2001-03 in Scotland, matters but, looking at the Second Reading of the Bill Wales and Northern Ireland. Your Lordships will be in the Commons and the mutual suspicion that arose aware that the attempts to address this in 2011 were during debate of what should surely be purely technical postponed until 2013, and in 2013 until 2018, because concerns, I can imagine that this mutual suspicion it seemed unlikely that the other place would approve goes back through the ages. any changes both to the size of constituencies and, I do not blame the Government that there is more importantly, to their overall number. apprehension over the ruling party influencing the Of course, the electorate deserve not just to be properly system; that is the nature of the system. PR would of but fairly represented. As with any rules, there are course not just be hugely fairer but would mean less exceptions—such as the Isle of Wight, Orkney, the political interest in the problem of coherent constituencies, Shetlands and now Anglesey—to be taken into account, since it is the number of representatives for each polling as the Bill quite rightly does. However, the differentials district that is crucial, not the size of the electorate or between seats have become too great over the passage the shape of the constituency. The tussle between 5%, of time, and it is quite clear that change has been 7.5% or 10% quota tolerances feels like another resisted, particularly by Labour, to seek electoral unnecessary battle, and under the present circumstances, advantage. I suppose that that is not as bad as trying this would be less so if all eligible voters were registered. to seek electoral advantage by altering the whole system In Germany, everyone has to register—including, in your favour, as the Lib Dems unsuccessfully tried to perhaps amazingly, if you are homeless—and that is do—which seems neither liberal nor democratic, but I the basis both of the electoral register and the calculation suppose one should not be too surprised about that. of the quota. In Britain, according to Electoral The significant change in the Bill from the proposals Commission research, 9.4 million people are missing made in 2011 and 2013 is of course the reversion from from the electoral register—a whopping 17% of eligible 600 to 650 seats. I have listened very carefully to the voters, including the young, those who rent and those debate but I still have no idea what the right number on low incomes. There is a lot of talk at the moment should be. Perhaps one of the next 42 speakers will about how best to ensure that black and ethnic minorities enlighten us. I share the view of the noble Lord, 57 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 58

Lord Greaves, that it is not exactly a revolutionary in the next boundary review, with no thought of the change, but it is clear to me that the Government have long-term implications for the Welsh language in those made this significant concession to ensure that the Bill areas—I accept that the Welsh-speaking area of Ynys is enacted and the electorate get the fairer representation Môn is being protected, and that is a good thing. they need. The Government have justified the change There will always be a need for variance, and it is in that policy by citing the increase in the workloads of a question of striking a balance between having MPs following our departure from the EU. I hope that constituencies that are broadly equal and constituencies the Government recognise that that increase in work that represent community ties.The Labour Party supports at one end of the Corridor will inevitably lead to an drawing constituency boundaries that truly reflect the even greater increase in work in your Lordships’ House, communities within them. I trust that the Minister will which already habitually sits for longer hours and take note of this. more days than the Commons—as evidenced by our sitting today while our honourable and right honourable 5.02 pm friends frolic on the beaches. Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD) [V]: My Lords, this I therefore hope that the Government will ignore Bill is about the appropriate use of the various building the currently fashionable but woolly-headed idea that blocks of our democracy. The first building block is this House is too large. A House whose membership is the electoral register. I have been privileged to serve as largely part-time obviously requires more Members chairman of your Lordships’ Select Committee on the than a House of full-time Members if it is to fulfil its Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013. role, particularly if its workload is greater. That is just Committee members are very much aware that the simple logic. However, I suspect that that change in register itself is the first building block, and we have the Government’s policy in relation to the size of the been very concerned by its lack of completeness. The House of Commons may have had rather more to do register is perhaps 80% to 85% complete, comparing with the realisation that turkeys do not vote for Christmas. very unfavourably with 96.4% in Canada. Completeness Perhaps the Government will remember that when must be improved. they turn their attention to the future of this House. We are pleased that, following the rush to get on the register for the 2019 election, two-thirds of a million 4.59 pm people registered on the last day. However, the extra Baroness Gale (Lab): My Lords, I welcome to some registrations from those who just missed the deadline extent the Bill before us today, as it is an improvement mean that March 2020 is the most accurate date for on the previous Act and keeps the 650 seats. However, which we have numbers, and shows the radical reform I must say that, as far as Wales is concerned, it is not that is much needed in register-making needs. In my good news, reducing its Members from 40 to an estimated view, the Bill’s requirement for all constituencies to be 32 seats. within 5% of a quota—somewhere in the region of The restrictive 5% quota will have a disproportionate 73,000 people—is too tight to achieve constituencies impact on Wales. The geographical nature of Wales, that have clear and understandably linked communities. with our beautiful and scenic mountains, our rural It is also important to note that although wards areas and the valleys of south Wales, with their close-knit make significant building-blocks, they vary significantly communities, means that, under the 5% quota, there is in number. In North Yorkshire, there are wards of a danger of splitting communities and creating very under 1,000 electors, but there are over 70,000 electors large constituencies. With the mountains and valleys in both Leeds and Sheffield. Polling districts will often dividing constituencies, the task of creating constituencies make better building-blocks in urban areas. that make sense to the communities becomes very Let me give the House an example. In the borough difficult. I urge the Minister to consider the impact of Calderdale, where I live, both constituencies, using that this one-size-fits-all approach to constituency the 2019 numbers, are near the quota: the Halifax boundaries would have on communities across Wales. constituency is about 3% under it, which is within the It is crucial that the boundary commissioners are suggested 5%, but the Calder Valley is about 6% over given greater flexibility to take into account the unique it, and therefore outside the tolerance figure. The geography of Wales. For example, the seats in sparsely splitting of a ward and the transfer of three polling populated areas that have a much larger acreage, such districts—which are themselves distinct communities— as Brecon and Radnorshire, Montgomeryshire and would meet the 5% objective. Either way,the Government those in Carmarthenshire, are all rural areas with already could get a good result. I suspect that most people very large constituencies.Contrast this with the geography would prefer not to change. However, I have to say of the south Wales valleys, with each valley tending to that, in our area, either of those results would be have its own constituency. Under the Bill, we will certainly far more suitable than any of the three ways potentially see constituencies with more than one valley, put forward by the previous Boundary Commission. and with a mountain range between them. Certain Happily, these were aborted, as they would have brought geographical features, such as those valleys, should be in three different areas from Bradford. given extra consideration than the 5% variance when it comes to drawing up Welsh boundaries. 5.06 pm The Welsh language is a crucial cornerstone of Lord Wigley (PC) [V]: My Lords, it is surely Welsh identity, and the Boundary Commission should presumptuous that this unelected Chamber should be given greater flexibility when drawing up boundaries determine the electoral process. The need for democratic around these communities. There is concern that the legitimacy in this Chamber is far greater than the need historic Welsh-speaking communities could be split up for the Bill. 59 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 60

[LORD WIGLEY] sure that he sufficiently emphasised one important point: The Bill starts from a false premise, regarding the that it is not possible to be fair to Welsh, or Irish, or UK as a homogenous unitary state. The devolved reality Scottish voters without at the same time being fair to requires Westminster to move forward with a more English voters too. It is that sense of balance between federal approach, yet the Bill replaces the individual us that allows us to take strength in our differences electoral quotas of the four nations with a single UK and move forward. electoral quota. The Bill comes against a long background of sordid I have always seen an MP as a representative, not a party shenanigans, and that has been part of this issue delegate.For 27 years,I represented Caernarfon, including for decades. I was first a voter in a general election in 100 miles of coastline and the Snowdon summit. It 1970. It was an election that the Labour Government had a huge variety of environmental, economic, cultural tried to tweak, or fix, perhaps, by voting down its own and sociological factors. It had 93 towns, villages and Boundary Commission report. Who will forget the hamlets, and 28 community councils, all of which rightly somersaults performed by the Liberal Democrats in expected me to visit regularly. I represented farmers the coalition who, having time and again promised and fishermen, slate quarrymen, factory workers and voters their voice in a Brexit referendum, changed tourist operators, and a unique cultural heritage, where their minds only when it no longer suited them? So 80% of people spoke Welsh as their first language. To much for political virtue: “Dear Lord, may I be chaste do justice to such a variety of electors required a far and virtuous, but not just yet.” greater time commitment than twice the population We know that we need the Bill: it is long overdue. within a few square miles would have. We will discuss the finer merits of 5%, 6% or 7.5% and Our voting system should aim to generate an equality dance on the head of a pin, although I think the of representation, not numerical uniformity, and that Opposition need to do much better in identifying why means flexibility in constituency size. The ultimate their favoured target is better than 5%—which, of corollary of a strict numerical approach is compulsory course, means 10%—because the further we get away voting by proportional representation and multi-Member from it, the less equal the outcome will be. seats. It is nonsense to say that every Member must I say this about parliamentary oversight and represent the same number of voters and then allow automaticity. Frankly, it goes against all my instincts their election on a 50% turnout, winning perhaps to hand over too much power to a quango, a Boundary 30% of the vote, or just 15% of eligible voters. Commission. You have only to witness the appalling The electoral registration process is woefully deficient record of the Electoral Commission for all doubts to and generates less accurate population figures than do magnify. Yet Parliament has shown that it is not up to the census and the ONS estimates. The Bill also fails the job of being both judge and jury. On the other to deal with the multiple registration of students and hand, my caution about quangos still kicks in, particularly second homeowners, which causes fluctuating quota in an age of social media lynch mobs. Does the Minister numbers through the year. Under the present system, have any plans to strengthen the independence and we see economically deprived areas underrepresented. judgment of the Boundary Commissions and to protect This Bill does nothing to put that right. Any one of us them in their work? who has canvased in an election will know that the This is a Bill that would have been welcomed by register has massive gaps, and these are often the very Chartists and suffragettes alike, and I hope that this people who most need an MP’s support. unelected House will welcome it too. When constituents came to see me in my surgeries, I would never ask whether they were a registered elector; 5.12 pm I would take up their case if their address was in my area. An MP’s workload is not related to electoral registration, Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab) [V]: My Lords, the and if we are to move to an arithmetically binding formula, Bill effectively supersedes the Parliamentary Voting we are moving away from the basic premise of Britain’s System and Constituencies Act 2011 and, as such, as I representative democracy. While I accept that there think the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, is admitting, is an has to be improvement on the present system, the Bill improvement, in that it does not force through an arbitrary does not necessarily deliver the changes needed. reduction in the number of MPs to 600. There was no rationale whatsoever for the number 600, other than I have two final points. I greatly regret the reduction that advanced by the then Leader of the House, the of Wales’s voice from 40 to an implied 32 MPs, without noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, that it was a big round an increase in the number of Senedd Members in Cardiff number. Bay, which will be needed to undertake the augmented legislative workload. However, I welcome that the The Bill does, however, set the number 650 in Government have accepted Plaid Cymru’s proposal to legislation rather than allow the Boundary Commissions protect Anglesey’s unique status as a community. Such discretion to make recommendations that best deliver a community-based approach should produce a very effective representation at constituency level. I welcome different pattern from that likely to come from the what the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, said about implementation of the Bill. strengthening the role of the Boundary Commissions, because it is very important that they are able to exercise proper judgment about what is effective representation 5.09 pm at local level. I am not worried if there is some slight Lord Dobbs (Con) [V]: My Lords, what a pleasure it variation around the 650 level, provided that the is to follow the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, as always, commissions’ recommendations make sense at local and share in the pride he takes in his roots. I am not level in terms of the communities that our Members of 61 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 62

Parliament are expected to represent. The essence of considerations or local ties. This discretion is vital to parliamentary democracy is that a local community address our Province’s unique circumstances. Indeed, elects an individual to represent it in the other place. in the other place, my colleagues also supported a For that to make sense at local level, the community number of amendments to the Bill at Report, including and the boundaries should make sense for that locality. new Clause 1, which would helpfully widen the permissible The task the Boundary Commissions are set should range in the constituency’s total electorate up to 7.5%, not be so circumscribed that the boundaries are rather than 5%. meaningless and represent no more than lines on a The loss of parliamentary approval—or, indeed, map to deliver a spurious mathematical equality. One any parliamentary procedure—for the final proposals of the elements of the 2011 Act was the requirement is, in my opinion, not acceptable. A democratic that the commissions were not allowed to deviate from accountability mechanism is critical, and it is not the electoral quota by more than 5%. This reduced the appropriate for the Boundary Commissions to be flexibility that had been previously available and made given such sweeping power. The frequency of reviews it more difficult to deliver constituencies that made in previous legislation was a concern, and I am therefore sense in terms of the localities on the ground. What is happy to see a longer, more sustainable timeframe for more, the commissions are merely permitted to consider future reviews of eight years. The local government local authority boundaries. The consequence is that boundary review is something Northern Ireland will far more parliamentary constituencies will straddle be embarking on, so this flexibility may be as relevant local council areas, and that is unhelpful. MPs need to to us as on the mainland. be able to represent their constituents, and it makes I therefore wish to give my support to the main sense therefore that the boundaries reflect the communities thrust of the Bill. on the ground. They must recognise natural features and physical divisions in the area. None of this is easy, 5.18 pm but it does not make sense for the commissions’ hands Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con) [V]: My Lords, I to be unnecessarily tied, and that is why an absolute welcome the Bill. It gives impetus to the long overdue fixed limit is unhelpful and the possibility of a larger process of revising the current constituency boundaries. than 5% leeway should be permitted. MPs are representing constituencies that were drawn The other issue is how frequently boundaries should up on data that is now 20 years old. Election night and be redrawn. The Bill substitutes an eight-year cycle for the incoming results show the consequences, as the a five-year one. Five years was always far too short. different sizes of constituencies have such variable No sooner had one set of boundaries been promulgated electorates. than the commission would have to start work on The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, does not like to be changing them. This in itself would undermine an reminded of his birthday, but I seem to remember that MP’s relationship with those she or he represents. It I was the Whip on a previous Bill in this House, would cause endless uncertainty and be destabilising which became the Parliamentary Voting System and for the work of Parliament, because MPs would not Constituencies Act 2011. Its flaws have been pointed just have to face the electorate at the end of each out by many speakers before me, but to address the Parliament but would have to spend much of the time failings of the situation that arose, the Conservative in between defending the boundaries in their area. Party manifesto in 2019 made a commitment to ensure Eight years is better than five, but 10 years would be “updated and equal Parliamentary boundaries, making sure that better and would still avoid boundaries and constituency every vote counts the same”. sizes becoming too outdated. The abortive 2018 Boundary Commission proposal is cancelled under this Bill as we revert to 650 constituencies, 5.15 pm and it ensures an automatic system for the commission Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP) to implement its recommendation. It avoids further [V]: My Lords, the Bill makes provision for the number procrastination by the Government or Parliament after of constituencies to remain at 650. I welcome that, as the commission has made its final report, and the final the previous recommendation for 600 seats was strongly report is to the Speaker of the House of Commons. opposed by my party colleagues. However, there should He is the agency for delivering the commission’s report be an express provision in the legislation for a minimum into law, and the Secretary of State and Parliament of 18 seats in Northern Ireland. Concern has rightly lose—in my view, quite rightly—the ability to amend been expressed that Northern Ireland could fluctuate by Order in Council. up or down a seat, with a knock-on effect on the None the less, the commission has a challenging Northern Ireland Assembly,therefore causing significant task. As so many noble Lords have pointed out, fitting unnecessary disruption to representation. Having such community cohesion with the power that it will need a safeguard is low risk but would provide certainty for equal-value voting within a range no greater than and stability in Northern Ireland. 5% either way is what the Bill provides for, but that is a Rule 7 is an important flexibility for Northern 10% variation in constituency size. That is why I agree Ireland, and I welcome its retention in the Bill. Rule 7 with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of of Schedule 2 to the Parliamentary Constituencies Cwmgiedd, about the importance of the independence Act 1986 provides for different arrangements for Northern of the Boundary Commission. That is why it is so vital Ireland if the commission considers that having to to preserve its integrity. adhere to the maximum 5% deviation from electoral The first target is to implement these changes by 2023. quotas in each constituency does not allow it to I support the creation of excluded status for the take account of special factors, such as geographical four constituencies, which will now include a fifth, 63 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 64

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] Party, that led the Liberal Democrats in turn to reject Ynys Môn. My noble friend the Lord Speaker will be the reduction in the size of the Commons, which was delighted to see two Members for the Isle of Wight at predicated on having elected representatives here. So if last. the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, wants to know why we continue to sit in a bloated and unelected second 5.21 pm Chamber, she need look no further than her own Lord Oates (LD) [V]: My Lords, I have three areas party. of particular concern about the Bill: first, the failure Having said that, my noble friend Lord Greaves is to give equal value to every vote; secondly, the risk surely wise in his counsel that we should put these that the new directions to the Boundary Commission matters behind us and seek to work together to improve will further exacerbate the overrepresentation of the the Bill. most affluent areas at the expense of the most deprived; and, thirdly, the need to view the system for determining 5.25 pm representation in the House of Commons in the context Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]: Having attended of the lack of democratic accountability of this Chamber. a number of boundary inquiries where issues of political I will not dwell for too long on the disparity in the advantage were quickly exposed, I want today to flag value of one person’s vote against another’s, which has up the need to keep such issues in mind as we seek to distorted our politics for so long and which is maintained amend existing legislation. Participants in these inquiries in this Bill; nor in decrying the Government’s obdurate have a dilemma—political advantage or public interest. attachment to first past the post, a system that leaves These can be difficult issues as there are pressures. millions of voters feeling that their votes count for Recommendations that offend the public interest may nothing while aiding and abetting the forces of nationalism please some party activists but they undermine confidence and disunity—giving the SNP, for example, 48 times in our electoral system. the number of MPs of the Green Party with just a This all came into focus when I retired after 22 years 1.2% greater share of the vote. I will just note that the as a Member of Parliament. I will give an example. In Bill certainly does not meet the Conservative manifesto 2007 the Boundary Commission came forward with commitment, already alluded to by my noble friend its Cumbria recommendations.The commission’soriginal Lord Tyler, to draft proposed a reorganisation of Copeland, my noble “making sure that every vote counts the same”. friend Lord Cunningham of Felling’s former seat. The The lack of proportionality is by no means the only seat had been under quota for a number of years and flaw in the Bill. The constraints that it places on the therefore faced inevitable reorganisation. The commission’s tolerance that the Boundary Commissions can allow response was to propose a seat, the Copeland-Windermere makes the number of registered electors an even more constituency,which stretched from the west Cumberland dominant factor than before. This risks natural coast all the way to Windermere, the other side of the communities being split in two but it also raises the Lake District—an extraordinary proposal. However, question of whether eligible electors rather than registered there was a problem: the drive from Whitehaven in the ones would not be a better base for determining west to Windermere in the east meant journeying over constituency boundaries. Given the millions of eligible the highest mountain pass in the United Kingdom, the voters not on the register, it is surely time to look at Hardknott Pass at the heart of the Lake District, automatic voter registration so we can ensure that which can close in the inclement weather of winter. deprived areas, where registration tends to be lower, The proposal was ludicrous. The problem was that the are not disenfranchised. parties had to take it all seriously and hassle over it. Lastly, we cannot view the arrangements for the There have been times in history when irregular election of Members of the House of Commons without boundary changes were acceptable as MPs had a very reflecting on the lack of election to this House. The different relationship with constituencies in former times, noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, in opening for the Labour but that has all changed. They are now closer, reflecting Party, astonishingly asked Liberal Democrats to explain local loyalties and ties with more personal representation. why this House continued to grow during the coalition The monthly visit staying in the local smart hotel is no while the original coalition proposal was that the longer acceptable. That is the new reality that the number of Members of the Commons should reduce. commission needs to consider.The Member for Copeland I am not sure whether the noble Baroness has had a fit surely cannot represent the people of Windermere: the of amnesia, but let me help her and her party out: the geography is wrong and one part of the constituency proposal to reduce the number of constituencies in the will lose out. MPs no longer just represent constituents Commons was part of the coalition agreement, which in Parliament; they now offer a service. included the establishment of an elected House of The Copeland proposal was rightly rejected. However, Lords. If it had been honoured, we would have increased I use it only as an example; I wonder whether that bad the number of elected representatives in Parliament as experience is replicated elsewhere. The Boundary a whole and immeasurably improved the legitimacy of Commission needs to be more sensitive to the local this House. links and loyalties that stand at the heart of effective The establishment of an elected House of Lords, parliamentary representation. I hope the commission which had a massive majority at Second Reading in is listening, particularly to the speech of my noble the Commons, was in the end torpedoed by the Labour friend Lady Gale, who talked of problems in the and Conservative parties colluding to prevent it. It Welsh valleys. If not, I have wasted my time engaging was a result of the Conservative Party reneging on its in this debate. I really hope that the commission is coalition agreement, with the assistance of the Labour listening today. 65 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 66

5.28 pm 5.31 pm Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]: My Lord Robathan (Con) [V]: My Lords, some dozen Lords, in following the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, I years ago I gave a paper entitled have to provide one correction which I shall do with a Reducing the Cost of Politics. I stand by most of it. It hashtag: AVisnotPR. covered, for instance, the fact that there are too many councillors—often people cannot get people to stand I want to begin by thanking the Minister for his in council seats—and too many spads, far too many introduction and for meeting me in advance of this researchers in the Commons hanging around Portcullis Second Reading to discuss the Bill. I particularly House, too many Ministers and far too many Peers. welcome his acknowledgement that our political system needs to be up to date.Of course,the only-two-decades-old With regard to the House of Lords, I suggested a demarcation of constituencies that this Bill updates is retrospective time limit, say 17 or 22 years, which is the newest element of our creaking, antique constitution, not that far from the Burns report suggestion. Yet assembled by centuries of historical accident. Were I when I put forward the idea of retrospectivity in a to be speaking now within your Lordships’ House, I debate on the Burns report, I noticed that it was not would be gesturing to the roof and noting that the way met with universal acclaim in your Lordships’ House. in which it is falling down around our ears is truly I also suggested a Commons of some 500 Members. I representative of the state of our political framework. remember that David Cameron said to me that “Turkeys The very delay in the implementation of the review of will never vote for Christmas”, but then, and perhaps I constituency boundaries is a demonstration of the had some influence on this, he put in the 2010 manifesto failure of the chief claim of the first past the post a reduction down to 600. electoral system: namely, that it delivers strong, stable government. The reason why that was not carried through under The Minister also referred to democracy relying on the coalition was that the Liberal Democrats reneged people knowing that they are fairly represented. Of course, on the commitment. My memory is better than those they cannot and will not be in the current system. The of the noble Lords, Lord Rennard and Lord Oates: noble Lord, Lord Tyler, noted that it robs voters—and the commitment to fewer constituencies was linked to of all the parliamentary parties, it is Green voters who the PR vote, which they lost. The Bill was very eloquently are robbed the most, as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell introduced by Nick Clegg, as my noble friend Lord Young of Pittenweem, noted. However, that is not the said. He then realised that his party might lose seats so primary reason why I am an advocate of proportional he betrayed the coalition agreement. That did not representation—which, as the noble Lord, Lord Oates, actually help the Lib Dems, who went down to eight noted, it is the only way the Tory Party could deliver seats from 57-odd—eight too many, some would say, on its manifesto commitment. It is because it is the but I did win some money on the bet. only way we can have a representative Parliament: one in which, as the campaign group Make Votes Matter As a former MP of 23 years, and like my noble says, the number of seats matches the number of friend Lord Hayward, who has great experience of votes. That is a democracy: Parliament reflecting the this matter and of psephology,I know that the arguments will of the people. around Boundary Commission recommendations are The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, based very often on personal interest or party-political referred to the missing 9 million people entitled to be interest; indeed, my noble friend Lord Dobbs referred on the electoral register who are not: around 10,000 per to them as “sordid party shenanigans”. MPs are worried constituency. However, if in our current system you about their own seats and parties are worried about count all the people whose votes are not represented at their chances of winning elections. We hear complete all, because their preferred candidate does not win, nonsense spouted about why some change or other and add in those who voted for a party that won more should not happen. votes than it needed to win the seat, the votes of the majority of voters in every single seat have no impact. After 23 years as an MP I dismiss the idea that an So it is no wonder we have such a problem with low MP cannot deal with 100,000 constituents. Of course turnout. they can—easily. I do not claim to have been an especially brilliant MP—I am sure that nobody will be There are some quick, practical details which I will really surprised to hear that—but I never had any be taking up in Committee. The 5% variance will split complaints about not dealing with constituents’problems. communities and leave MPs representing hopelessly Quite the opposite—although you might not always disparate areas with no community of interest. I agree have liked my way of dealing with them. There are too with the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, that it further many Members of the House of Commons and there weakens any claim to legitimacy for first past the post. are far too many Peers.They start all-party parliamentary It is surely time for automatic registration and no groups because they have got to keep themselves busy voter ID. Almost 5.5 million Britons—almost one-tenth somehow. I do not support the Government in keeping of Britons—live overseas. What of their representation? 650 MPs. There are too many politicians. Let us France has separate constituencies for overseas voters. reduce the size of the Commons and the Lords, and They have a community of interest. the number of politicians all round, and the cost of Finally, we should have votes at 16. The noble politics. That might start in some way to restore the Baroness, Lady Hayter, referred to her disappointment damaged faith of the British public in politics and its at being excluded from voting when she was under the practitioners. We should do the right thing. then required age of 21. Last weekend, I was with 67 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 68

[BARONESS BENNETT OF MANOR CASTLE] it so speedily, But—and here is the point—at the young people in Sheffield on a climate strike. They moment the Brecon and Radnorshire constituency were doing politics. They were sharing their passion has 53,000 electors. The quota under the new system and their engagement and trying to get involved, but will be 72,000: in other words, it will have to put on they do not even have the very narrow power of the 19,000 electors. Where are they to be: north, south, vote. They should have it. west or across in another valley? It beggars belief that such a proposition could be seriously put before this 5.34 pm Parliament. Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]: My Lords, this Bill is I want to join the noble Lords, Lord Tyler and far from a great piece of democratic reform—it does Lord Hayward, in regretting the recent death of my not start to tackle the real unfairness in our electoral very good friend Ron Johnston, who was the great system—but it has some useful measures. The population academic expert on all things boundaries. Without is increasing and Parliament is struggling with a huge him, consideration of this Bill feels a bit like “Hamlet” Brexit legislative programme, compounded by emergency without the prince. This Bill is “Hamlet” without the coronavirus-related measures—so maintaining MP prince. It puts right a whole lot of things in the Bill numbers at 650 is sensible. However, current boundaries that your Lordships’ House destroyed in 2011—except are now almost 20 years old and a review is needed. its worst feature: namely,the 5% plus or minus differential Reviews every five years would put constituency between the size of electorates. I could go—and no boundaries in a continuous state of flux, so eight years doubt in Committee may go—into the full details of is better. the poverty of the arguments put in favour of that, but So far, so good—but I have some serious concerns. I want to make a political argument, because that is The Bill confirms a strict electoral quota for each seat, the only thing that ever convinces this Government, in with a limit of variability of 5%. Only in a few protected my experience. constituencies is there any real consideration of rurality The previous boundary reform fell apart because or local geographic features. In my home country, Tory MPs found that their constituencies were being Wales, it takes well over an hour and a half to drive messed with and they had to fight the Tory MP in the from end to end of the constituency of Brecon and next-door constituency to decide who should be Radnorshire. It is one of at least five geographically the candidate, when they preferred to be fighting the enormous rural Welsh constituencies, each of them Labour Party—and I can understand that. The Whips with a relatively small electorate. Such constituencies got fed up, so the Minister did not lay the orders and should be given protected status, just as Ynys Môn has nothing changed. Although going from 600 to 650 helps, been. The formula shows that Wales could lose eight I can tell noble Lords that the same thing will happen of its 40 seats. This is worrying, as the Senedd still has this time. In three years, when the penny has dropped, only 60 Members. As Lib Dems, we would like to see Tory MPs will find themselves fighting each other for many more—but that is up to the Senedd itself. the new seats that have been formed out of chunks of I am worried about the balance of seats across the their old seats—and that is going to happen every whole of the UK. Projections suggest six additional eight years, ad infinitum, unless something is done seats for south-east England and 10 for England overall. about it. Indeed, I look forward, with considerable Both Houses of this Parliament are already too dominated anticipation, to the moment when the then-vulnerable by the interests of south-east England. The union is in noble Lord, Lord True, stands up before this House a precarious state, and increased dominance by the and does his Callaghan, proposing that we get rid of south-east should be avoided. Lack of trust in government this Bill because we have to get rid of the 5% variation. is higher in the north of England and in the south-west. I suggest that a variance of at least 10%, combined 5.41 pm with instructions to the Boundary Commissions to take account of rurality,and county and local government Lord Sheikh (Con) [V]: My Lords, the reason for boundaries, should be implemented. That will produce introducing this Bill is to fulfil the pledge in the an electoral landscape much more sensitive to community Conservative Party manifesto to have needs. “updated and equal Parliamentary boundaries, making sure that Finally, boundary reviews are a pretty well-kept every vote counts”. secret beyond political parties, and that is unacceptable, Each vote must carry the same weight. Therefore, it is so public consultation procedures must be strengthened. important that each Member of Parliament represents Currently, 9.4 million people are missing from the an equal number of constituents, as far as possible. electoral register, which is also unacceptable. The The number of parliamentary seats should remain at commissions should be given a responsibility to promote 650 and not be reduced to 600. It must be appreciated electoral registration as well as simply counting the that, when we leave the European Union, the workload numbers. of MPs will increase. Therefore, they should not be asked to look after more constituents. 5.38 pm Our present constituencies are based on electorate Lord Lipsey (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I am amazed to numbers that are nearly 20 years old. Therefore, we hear that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, can do need to undertake a review.The Boundary Commission’s from north to south in the Brecon and Radnorshire report will be based on registered voters in all areas as constituency, where I live, in an hour and a half. It takes at 2 March 2020. I believe that this is the proper date me two hours, or perhaps one hour and 50 minutes and that it will provide the most up-to-date registration if my wife is driving, so it is wonderful that she can do numbers from before the lockdown. 69 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 70

I welcome the proposal to increase the period of This has generally been a messy process that has boundary reviews from five years to eight years; by left scars on everybody involved in it. Eight-year reviews doing so, we can achieve the appropriate periodic are good; 10-year ones would be better. I look forward changes and not cause disruption to Members of to what is coming in the Bill with a sort of masochistic Parliament and local communities. I also welcome the pleasure running down me. proposal that the recommendation of the Boundary Commission will be put into effect without political 5.47 pm interference from the Government or any Minister. Lord Triesman (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I am sorry, the This is in line with what happens in other countries, unmute button did not work for a minute there. I want and I agree that that is how it should be in our country to make just a few comments. Several times in the as it will enable the commission’s recommendations to course of the Bill, the comment has been made that, be implemented without delays. being unelected, we should not give advice to the I also commend the Government for the proposal elected House. I suspect that the paradox is that we are to hold public consultation during the second round not only unelected but we have no vote in the election of consultation, which would be more meaningful. of the Members of the elected House either. Dividing the total number of voters by 650 will probably One of the things that I recall from when I used to result in an electoral quota of over 72,000 per constituency. have a vote is that, from one election to the next, it There will be losers and gainers in certain regions, never crossed my mind that the exact balance of the depending on the population in those areas. I agree value of my vote was an essential component in comparing that there should be a 5% variance rule and not one of issues with people in other parts of the country. I can 7.5%, as suggested by the Opposition in the other understand the broader argument for equality in voting, place. If you allow plus or minus 7.5%, the size of but it was never a fundamental issue. The fundamental the electorate can differ by 15 percentage points issue was the quality of representation and the quality between individual constituencies. If this happens, of how it was taken into effect in the House of people’s votes will not count the same—as was pledged Commons. in our manifesto. It is for these reasons that I have a lot of sympathy However, we need the variance to enable the for the points made by my noble friends Lord Hain commission to look at all factors, including geographical and Lady Gale and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. Many features, community ties, local government boundaries of the distinctive features of the constituencies in this and existing boundaries. I conclude by saying that I country, which we reflect in other ways as well—in the support the Bill. Barnett formula and other mechanisms—relate to the complexity, size, cultural mix and geography of this country. 5.44 pm I can entirely see why it should be that, after any Lord Addington (LD): My Lords, when it comes to kind of decision has been taken by the Electoral being in this House in 2011, when reforming electoral Commission, Members of the House of Commons, in boundaries came up, a cold shiver runs down your particular,will want to see whether it makes fundamental spine. It was one of the messier periods I have seen in sense of the arrangements necessary to get effective my 30-plus years here, and it is something we should representation.Certainly,procrastinationcanbeprevented, try to get away from. For an analysis of it, I would as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, said. It seems to take my noble friend Lord Oates’ description of what me that we could probably ensure that there are other happened. You can stick bits around the outside of it, sensitive mechanisms in this Bill, including ones that but I think he caught the spirit of it. allow us slightly greater discretion than the 5%. When we look at the Bill itself, the biggest hole is This would be valuable if we are to take full account the automatic registration of voters. Until we get that, of the geographical character—the distances, mountain we have the problem of how many registered voters ranges and so on. Without these considerations, it seems there should be. That is one of the major problems if to me that we are inevitably going to leave people with you are going for this form of democratic representation; a lower quality of representation than they would it is quite clearly a hole. There are lots of things we can otherwise have. That should certainly be avoided in a do to improve this, but it is certainly a major hole. Bill of this kind. When it comes to the other comments about what a constituency should look like, we all know that the 5.50 pm constituency we happen to have an interest in Lord Truscott (Ind Lab) [V]: My Lords, I welcome should stay still. If we take it that that will be the the fact that the number of parliamentary constituencies default position of everybody else, the percentage will be kept at 650, not reduced to 600 as previously variation will become important, as will what its variables planned. With Covid-19, Brexit, economic recession are. Are they county lines or rivers? The Tamar has and the deteriorating geopolitical situation, MPs will been mentioned. have a greater workload, not a lighter one. The UK’s If we are to go through this, can we have a better growing population places additional strains on a understanding of where the variations, be they of society under pressure. 5% or 10%, kick in? A better understanding of this—at Like many noble Lords, I am concerned about least with local government lines we know what we are removing Parliament’s role in approving any Boundary dealing with—will mean that we actually know what Commission changes before they are finalised. As the arguments are about. has been said in the other place, the Bill would 71 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 72

[LORD TRUSCOTT] any personal encouragement, a Private Member’s Bill disproportionately and undemocratically concentrate to give each Member of the upper House a vote where the power to cut constituency sizes and amend boundaries they live has had a Second Reading in your Lordships’ in the hands of the Executive. It is welcome that the House. Most noble Lords are active where they live. current ability of the Secretary of State to amend Orders in Council, if rejected by Parliament, would be 5.55 pm removed, but that is not enough of a safeguard. Her Majesty’s Government argue that a similar system to Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab) [V]: My Lords, as the one proposed operates in Australia, New Zealand this House debates parliamentary boundaries, it is and Canada. That may be the case, but it means that important to come back to the fact that democracy is such a system is unique to those three countries, out of more than just voting. It is about living together in 195 across the globe. harmony and fairness, with respect for other minority It may also be pointed out that we have a Prime viewpoints and tolerance of the opinion of others. Minister who has shown scant regard for parliamentary Democracy in Britain is under challenge today as sovereignty, as witnessed by his latest plan to move your never before. I think of the growth of social media. Lordships’ House to York after a cursory consultation. The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, described this very As the Lord Speaker recently pointed out, Parliament, graphically as “social media lynch mobs”; it is a truth, not government, is sovereign in our democracy. A as well as a non-truth. There is an increasing feeling of classically educated Prime Minister, steeped in ancient alienation in many areas of this country. There is an Greece as the cradle of democracy,should well understand emergence of anti-democratic, right-wing parties that that, but our PM acts more like an autocratic Slavonic are actually opposing democracy.Wesee that manifested Tsar, aided and abetted by his own delusional Rasputin. in lower turnouts. I view the Bill against that background. For that reason, the less he tampers with our parliamentary Living in Cumbria, I see—and agree with— institutions the better. the arguments advanced earlier by my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours. Physical boundaries, such as 5.52 pm mountains and lack of road access, clearly need more stringent examination and should, generally, not be a Lord Naseby (Con) [V]: My Lords, I welcome the factor where new constituencies emerge. Bill and the number remaining at 650. It is a sad reflection that the key element of our democracy was Democracy is a qualitative, as well as a quantitative, allowed to fester in the to-do tray during the Cameron institution. I am, therefore, very much in favour of coalition Government, and then the May Government. retaining 650 members. That allows citizens to feel It is a terrible disgrace that today’s constituencies are more comfortable in their community and constituency. based on data from 2000—20 years ago—since when However, I am concerned about the strict 5% limit. It there have been huge changes in population movement should be extended—certainly to 7.5% in extreme and net migration. cases. I particularly welcome the key element of the Bill Lastly, our very constitution is based upon the on hearings. I remember going to hearings about supremacy and sovereignty of Parliament. Therefore, boundary changes in Northampton, which were always I am not exactly happy about removing Parliament’s taken at the first stage; it always seemed wrong to me final vote on the construction and position of and my advisers that it was not the second stage. I parliamentary boundaries. It is a denial of our basic therefore welcome the part of the Bill which proposes constitutional premise and I am not happy about it that it will be the second stage, not least because that being passed to unelected officials. provides better provision for change, particularly in relation to local authority boundaries. I challenge the 5.57 pm length of time that is being suggested, with boundary reviews being put up from every five years to eight. Baroness Barker (LD): My Lords, the last Conservative Whether we like it or not, we have a party-political Party manifesto promised to make changes to electoral system. On my calculation, this means that parliamentary boundaries in order to make sure that the Government elected in 2025 will have an effective “every vote counts the same”, advantage of an extra three years. but this Bill does nothing of the sort. I will look for a second or two at the case history of While the principle of MPs representing roughly my own former seat, Northampton South. It first the same number of constituents must be right—it came into existence, as a seat, following the boundary was the major aim of the Chartists in the 19th century— reviews of the early 1970s. As colleagues may remember, the idea that every vote counts the same is incompatible the first election there was in February 1974. On the with the system of constituencies electing a single MP. first count my majority was minus 203 but a few of the As long as we have first past the post with single-member bundles appeared to have got mixed up in the wrong constituencies, the rules for drawing up the boundaries area and, on appeal, it ended up as 179. At an election for them must be fair and stable and based on two that October, I got 141, at another one in 1979—a gap fundamental principles. First, we must ensure that, as of six to seven years—it was 3,634. Then there was a far as possible, everyone entitled legally to be registered boundary review and, all of a sudden, I had a huge to vote should be included on electoral registers.Secondly, constituency and I got a majority of over 15,000. That the boundaries should be drawn up with sufficient went on until 1992 and then, bang, I got another flexibility to ensure that they are not changed review in 1997 and lost by 744. There is something not fundamentally every time they have to be revised. The right about going to eight years. If noble Lords want Bill does not address either of those issues. 73 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 74

It is welcome that the boundary reviews will take 6.33 pm part every eight years and not every five years as in the Lord Hussain (LD) [V]: My Lords, I support 2011 legislation, but when we considered that legislation, maintaining 650 seats in the House of Commons, as we were told that just about everyone who should be opposed to 600; this will help to minimise disruption included on voting registers was included. However, in boundary reviews. The case for reducing the number both the Electoral Commission and the Cabinet Office of MPs must be based on reducing the number of have shown that millions of people are missing from Ministers and increasing the devolution of power to registers and many millions more are incorrectly recorded. nations and regions. Reducing the number of MPs A disproportionate number of those missing from the while not reducing the number of Ministers would registers are young people, private sector tenants and increase the power of the government payroll vote members of BAME communities—groups traditionally and, as recent events have shown, the executive branch less likely to vote Conservative. So more constituencies of the Government is already too powerful compared will be created to represent the more Conservative with those of us seeking to hold it to account. areas where fewer of those demographic groups are resident. I also welcome reviews every eight as opposed to every five years. Many MPs will feel that they have It is a pretence to say that this legislation is about worked hard to win their seats; changing the boundaries making every vote count the same. In reality, it is every five years will mean that nobody elected in a about creating even more Conservative seats in the general election could be certain that the constituency House of Commons even if the numbers of votes do they had won would still exist at the next general not justify that. Automaticity of this in-built bias is election. simply a perpetuation of a lack of democratic accountability, and we should oppose that very strongly I do not agree with removing Parliament’s power to in this House. have the final say—at least, not until such a time as the rules are based on fully including everyone entitled to 6 pm be on the electoral register, not just the 85% or so who may be included now.Last year the Electoral Commission Sitting suspended. suggested that there may be as many as 9 million people who are entitled to be included on the electoral 6.31 pm register but are not, or who are incorrectly registered. Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl) [V]: My Lords, I welcome The principle of each MP representing approximately the continuation of the current arrangements, as I believe the same number of people cannot be achieved until the reduction proposed by the coalition Government all the people who should be voters are included on would have been an impediment to fair and adequate the electoral rolls. The rules of drawing up the boundaries representation and services to constituents and not in must be fair and must ensure that everyone entitled to the best interests of the electorate. vote is included on the electoral register, so that each MP represents the same number of people.An inadequate Despite the debates today and within wider political system of registration means that many of them will bubbles and implied consultations, the consequences now fall off the electoral register or may not be of these matters were not agreed by large swathes of registered, because of difficulties with the registration our population—hitherto unrepresented groups—in process caused by the Covid pandemic. any meaningful way.Specifically,I suggest that significant numbers of them are minority women and people with Unless the principle of including everyone entitled disabilities. They will rightly feel excluded. to vote on the electoral register is accepted, the Bill will ensure that fewer constituencies are created in I have two principal questions. If the Government areas where there are many young people, private are committed to every vote counting equally, how do sector tenants and people in black and ethnic minority they propose to address the glaring points raised by communities. But more constituencies will be created the ,which stated that 9.4 million where there are older, more middle-class, more white eligible voters are currently missing from registers? These communities that are less likely to move around. Boundary include 40% of minorities, thus further disfranchising reviews are supposed to be impartial. The commissioners already vulnerable citizens disproportionally impacted may be impartial but if the rules discount millions of socially and politically. I therefore look forward to my people who should be entitled to vote, then the rules noble friend Lady Hayter ensuring that the Bill leaves are being drawn up to create more constituencies here with sufficient standing to strengthen parliamentary likely to be represented by Conservatives and fewer scrutiny and the backstop. represented by their opponents. This will make the Will the Government ensure that any anomalies that system less democratic, not more. discard 20% of our population, leaving them excluded and alienated from our democratic structures, will be redressed and that those structures will be made inclusive 6.37 pm of groups systemically disadvantaged as a result of Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]: My age, race, religion and socioeconomic position? Otherwise, Lords, with no disrespect to my really good friends in we mayface grave societal consequences from marginalised the Liberal Democrats or to the Greens, the Bill is not citizens and continued inequity and division in housing, about proportional representation or alternative votes, education, employment, health and social care. They which we have already dealt with. We had a referendum will not be counted and their views and needs not on it. Nevertheless, it is about an important matter reflected in shaping our parliamentary democracy, as far as democracy is concerned. I strongly support and this surely cannot be right. the decision not to reduce the number of seats in the 75 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 76

[LORD FOULKES OF CUMNOCK] at amendments in Committee and on Report to make Commons to 600; it should remain at 650—or, as my special protection for the special interests of Wales noble friend Lord Harris said, thereabouts—particularly and Scotland. given the different landscape we have now in terms of the powers of Parliament, which we heard the Minister describe, and the increase in population. The noble Baroness Scott of Bybrook: I remind the noble Lord Lord, Lord Robathan, may have had an easy time but of the three-minute advisory speaking time. with some 60,000 constituents and 800 square miles to get around, I certainly had to work very hard indeed Lord Foulkes of Cumnock [V]: I am coming to the as a Member of Parliament. Most Members of Parliament end. continue to work very hard. I was pleased to see that in the Commons, As one of the many former MPs speaking today, I David Linden, an SNP MP, said: have experienced the trauma rather than the excitement “I very much hope that when their lordships look at this Bill of a boundary review. My first major boundary change they will remove clause 2, which is an affront to democracy.”—[Official came in my very first re-election to Parliament in 1983, Report, Commons, 14/7/20; col. 1482.] and I survived. However, I know of other excellent I welcome that and I agree. I also welcome the fact MPs whose careers have been cut short by arbitrary that he,as an SNP spokesperson, recognised the important decisions of the Boundary Commissions, based on role of this second Chamber as a revising House. That making up numbers to remain within that strict arithmetic is a move in the right direction. boundary of the plus or minus 5% electoral quota. We have ended up with artificial boundaries with no 6.41 pm community coherence. I have seen time and again this obsession with arithmetic exactitude, which has been Lord Lea of Crondall (Non-Afl) [V]: My Lords, I given preference over natural and community boundaries, very much admire two of the speeches made since the as other colleagues have said. It produces results that tea break—those of the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, are less sensible and more challenging than the previous and the noble Lord, Lord Hussain—and their analysis boundaries. For instance, on some occasions one side of the structural nature of this problem, which has of a road has been in one constituency and the other been excluded, of people being excluded from the side in another. They were within different council register. I hope that the Minister can say a bit more boundaries but the wider natural boundaries were about this in his reply. It ties up with many social ignored, as my noble friend Lady Gale said. Mountains problems at the moment. If people are not part of a and hills have been ignored, as well as other important society, they will not behave as members of a society. factors such as major highways. That is very important. At the other end of the spectrum, we have people Regrettably, the Government said in a statement who are very much members of society and have earlier this year that they will not look to change the greater economic weight because of greater educational 5% quota. I hope that they will look at it again. While opportunity. We have to look behind this issue at some they recognise that they need of the fractures in British society, although perhaps “the flexibility to take account of other factors, such as physical not in this debate. geographical features and local ties”, I will go off-piste, if I may, and rise to the bait, to the arithmetic criteria would still remain “the overriding mix a metaphor, about moving the House of Lords to principle”. I believe that they should be of equal force. York. I do so not because I think that it is anything Without proper consideration of wider natural, other than a bit of rhetoric by the Prime Minister, but infrastructural and community factors, future changes because he is pretty good at fingering an issue that he principally based on an arithmetical quota will cause thinks will have resonance with people—even though significant disruption to community boundaries. probably does not know when he leaves Durham whether he ought to go south-west to The provisions in the Bill also include amending the Barnard Castle or north-east to Sunderland, where review frequency—I agree that it should be eight years Nissan is going to close its factory because we are rather than five—and conducting with automaticity leaving the European Union. These socioeconomic the implementation of boundary changes, which I questions are much more important to many people completely oppose. than the size of the constituency, as we know. There are so many problems for people, ranging from the As always, I want briefly to speak up for Scotland, Scottish question to those to do with all parts of which, like Wales, faces losing several seats in the next Ireland, Wales and so on. review. This is wrong and needs to be looked at again. It does not take account of the fact that, for example, Having been born in south Lancashire, I could make the land area of Scotland is one-third of that of the the case that we really ought to think for the next whole United Kingdom. As the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, 20 years ahead about what would be a balancing factor and the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, said—[Inaudible]— of another Chamber. The noble Lord, Lord Prescott, similar factors ought to be taken account of. was always on to this. There are many possibilities. It would not just mean “electing the House of Lords”. I In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, I say come from the trade union movement, where we had that we have four Boundary Commissions because the social contract. It was the forces in society that had they have been able to take account of specific factors, to make an agreement between them to make the such as in Scotland and Wales. I hope that we will look economy work. 77 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 78

Perhaps those people who have just left the European 6.48 pm Parliament on a regional ticket can give us a benchmark Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab): My Lords, of some of the systems that operate in the countries of there is much to welcome in this Bill. In particular, I Europe—we have nothing to learn from them, of strongly welcome the specified constituency proposed course—and that may be relevant to restructuring our for Ynys Môn, which rectifies a mistake made previously politics so that we do not have the sense of relying just and provides a consistency of principle across the UK on rhetoric to talk about fractured Britain and the that is entirely appropriate. However, I have some north-south divide. Of course, with the north-south reservations about the Executive appearing to promote divide, the more rhetoric, the worse it gets. That is not a principle of independence from politics in the decision- to say that the 70,000 people in constituencies around making around future Boundary Commission reviews. Lancashire— That additional power to the Executive contradicts that supposedly principled approach and needs to be Baroness Scott of Bybrook: Could the noble Lord investigated very carefully at the different stages of the start winding up now, please? Bill in this House. Having listened to the debate, I will change my Lord Lea of Crondall [V]: I will wind up now. In the third point to a more substantial one. I worry that this real world, these socioeconomic forces comprise the is yet another piecemeal change to the governance of social contract. We have to think about how that the United Kingdom. The Bill is largely welcome. I do relates to the bicameral system. not support the increase back to 650 MPs; we have too many politicians in this country. We should look to reform all our government structures to make sure 6.45 pm that the representation of the people is more effective Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, I speak as one at different levels, rather than necessarily focusing on who believes passionately in both Houses: this House the number of MPs in the House of Commons. Frankly, for its capacity to scrutinise legislation and because it if the number of MPs is to be increased again through can never be a challenge to the supreme authority of legislation, it would be a very good time to decrease the elected House. It is against that background that I the numbers in your Lordships’ House by way of will make a few remarks. compensation. Perhaps that is something the Prime The sinister words in this Bill—which, in many Minister might want to reflect on in the coming days, ways, I welcome—were pointed out by my noble friend if rumours are to be believed. Lord Young of Cookham. They appear in Clause 2: More generally, we now have a number of elected “As soon as reasonably practicable”. mayors. Last week we discussed in your Lordships’ Chamber the new authority for part of Yorkshire. We The danger in this Bill is that it gives too much have a constantly evolving devolution settlement in power to the Executive. I am a great believer in the Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. For example, theme of Dunning’s Motion, moved in 1780, when he in Northern Ireland, despite all the difficulties of the said that last few decades, the Executive have apparently “the influence of the crown has increased, is increasing, and outperformed the Governments of the other parts of ought to be diminished.” the United Kingdom during this Covid emergency. Today, the power of the Executive has increased, is That has been a tremendous success for their co-operation. increasing, and ought to be diminished. That is why I We also have a long-standing problem with the favour the ultimate word being taken in the other credibility and authority of your Lordships’ House. place by the elected Members of Parliament. The matter of venue might be up for debate, but so I shall support, with amendments, those who talked should membership as part of any ongoing review of about the 5% being too rigid. I was particularly persuaded our governance structure. These kinds of changes—the by the arguments of colleagues from Wales, but the independence of boundary review proposals and the same applies to Scotland and to certain parts of England. number of Members in the House of Commons—should Communities must not be broken up by artificial be made in a wider context that includes consideration boundaries imposed from elsewhere. Constituencies of the second Chamber, of devolution that is happening must not be so impractical to negotiate that it is to regions and city mayors, and of our relationship almost impossible adequately to represent them in the with the three devolved nations. While the Bill is very other place. We have to look at this very carefully. I welcome, it is another piecemeal move, perhaps in the shall certainly support amendments that seek to deal right direction, but which should have been part of a with the 5%. bigger picture. I hope it will be at some point soon. I particularly feel, as a tremendous supporter of the 6.51 pm union, that we must not do anything in these very difficult, parlous times, to jeopardise the union. Of course Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]: My Lords, I it is right that England inevitably has the largest congratulate my noble friend the Minister on introducing number of Members of Parliament, but there ought to the Bill so ably. I should correct the comments of the be, in a sense, disproportion in favour of Scotland noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall. I understand that and Wales and, to a degree, Northern Ireland, even Nissan is not closing its plant in Sunderland. Perhaps though they have regional Parliaments and assemblies. my noble friend can verify that when he winds up. This Bill will need a lot of scrutiny in your Lordships’ I welcome the Bill, for a variety of reasons. Those of us House. We must, of course, give it a safe passage, but I who served in the other place will recognise that hope it will be a safe passage which improves it. constituency boundaries are always a subject of great 79 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 80

[LORD RANDALL OF UXBRIDGE] organisations is particularly important. I regret that interest. I agree that the previous proposals to reduce there is no statutory steer to the Boundary Commissions the number of constituencies were well intentioned, but on this aspect. It is quite hard, but satisfying, to rather misguided. Those of us who have been MPs in build a new relationship. However,I was able to maintain recent years can attest to the fact that a combination a majority of more than 20,000 for most of my time. of factors, not least huge technical changes, have resulted My second experience is professionally representing in a vastly increased workload. There is also a great as counsel before an assistant commissioner’s hearings, expectation about what services MPs should now be where much of the legwork is done, frequently by able to provide. When I first entered Parliament in experienced QCs, who do invaluable work. I was 1997, I did not have an email and the new wonders of representing the City and County of Cardiff. I called the modern mobile phone were virtually unheard of. my star witness, a Mr Callaghan. Reading from my I am afraid that I take issue with the rather throwaway brief, I said, “Your full name is James Callaghan.” comments of my noble friend Lord Mancroft. He “No,” he said, “Leonard James Callaghan.” I should does Members of the other place a disservice to imply, have known better, having read innumerable documents however light-heartedly, that they are frolicking on the initialled “LJC”. beach now that the Commons is in recess. My experience I welcome the damascene conversion from the coalition is that the hard work of MPs and their hard-working Government’s ill-fated proposals for 600 MPs. It is staff does not cease just because the House of Commons argued, properly, that 650 is a better number than 600, is not sitting. a number plucked from the sky without any basis and I was extremely lucky in that I represented a which would have caused massive disruption. The last constituency that I had always lived and worked in. time I spoke on this issue in the House was to oppose My house was virtually in the centre of the constituency, the massive reduction in representation from Wales but as various boundary reviews have taken place I proposed in the previous Bill. It would have been the have found myself slipping towards the borders.However, greatest of all, from 40 Members to 30—a 25% cut—where for the vast majority of the electorate, boundaries are traditionally it has hardly ever come below 35, a figure relatively unimportant. All they ask for is to have a probably entrenched and understood by Boundary readily available representative who they can contact Commissions from 1918 onwards. and who will deal with their concerns as speedily as possible. If we increase the number of constituents, The survival of the union is assisted massively by that service might inevitably suffer. strong numerical representation from the devolved nations. Toignore the present strains on the constitution Another unintended consequence is that it might is dangerous driving. The proposed cut in representation increase the possibility that constituencies will cover for Wales is almost as dramatic, because it would more local authorities and attendant public authorities. mean a cut from 40 to 32, which is much bigger than I always counted myself extremely lucky that, with a the loss in Scotland. I welcome the changes proposed geographically small constituency, I did not have to deal for Ynys Môn. with the myriad organisations that other less fortunate MPs have to deal with. In this, I agree entirely with the The Bill ignores the difficulty of large geographical sentiments of my noble friend Lord Trenchard. areas being split by valleys that run north to south, I agree with the Government that this change will with substantial difficulties in communication east to provide certainty that the recommendations of the west. I endorse the remarks of my noble friend Lord Hain. independent and impartial Boundary Commissions In all my years, I went only occasionally to the valleys will be implemented without political interference, or to the left and to the right of my constituency; I kept interference from either government or Parliament. to my own constituency, and this was the difficulty of This is absolutely the way it should be conducted. I travel from west to east or east to west. also welcome the provisions that deal with how Boundary This brings me to the most important objection to Commission reports are implemented. However, the Bill: the allowable variation in electoral quota of I add my support to the comments of my noble friends plus or minus 5%. A 7.5% variation would fundamentally Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Cormack, and of cope with the difficulties of geography and continuity. the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, about To take away the role in this of the House of Commons tightening up the wording about laying Orders in and the House of Lords is an abdication of responsibility Council, which currently states “as soon as possible”. and undermines constitutional history. Time limitations mean that I will not speak about other measures in the Bill. Suffice it to say that I 6.58 pm thoroughly support them and I look forward to its eventual arrival on the statute book. I wish it well. Lord Balfe (Con) [V]: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord True, said that this was the first Bill he was 6.54 pm taking through the House—well, welcome. It is also a Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]: My Lords, my Bill on which he will hear more special pleading, with, contribution to this debate is based on more than coincidentally, most of it being in the interests of the 41 years representing the constituency of Aberavon, party making it. which was torn apart after 23 years by local government I will start by reminding noble Lords of the historic boundary changes, depriving me of my eastern wards cry for “Equal votes of equal value.” In this debate, we and, to make up for it, granting me other delightful seem to have done a lot of asking for special favours to wards from the Neath constituency. Continuity of make votes less equal. Also, it is fine to talk about representation and specific association with local registering people, but we are doing so against the 81 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 82 background that at least two, often three and sometimes improvement to the Bill? He as much as any of us more in every 10 voters do not vote at all. They are on knows that, in political parts, spring tends to come the register, but they do not vote. quite late, and often only when the leaves are truly The next point that I would like to make is this. You browned off. can have your peculiar constituency anomalies and I want also to add my support to the protections to you can have fairness if you have the German system be granted quite correctly for Ynys Môn. Does my where there are two votes, one of which elects the noble friend agree that, while no man is an island, it is party and the other elects the constituency representative. certainly true that some constituencies are indeed just For at least 30 years, I have been a supporter of that? proportional representation, and the only Private Member’s Bill I have had debated in the House was on 7.04 pm that subject. But I find it difficult to believe that we are Lord Grocott (Lab): My Lords, I have a special living in a full democracy when the Greens are so badly reason for welcoming this Bill. It puts the final nail in underrepresented and the SNP is currently overrepresented the coffin of the unlamented Parliamentary Voting —although for a time it, too, was underrepresented. System and Constituencies Act 2011, which was passed Although this is a limited Bill, we should not lose sight by the coalition Government. It was the most fiercely of the wider principles that we are dealing with. opposed Bill in the House of Lords for the past One area where I have sympathy with the changes decade, including at least one all-night sitting. It contained being proposed in the Bill has been referred to by a two distinct and unrelated measures. One provided for number of noble Lords, although the first to do so was a referendum on the voting system and the other my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham. We have to provided for a reduction of MPs from 650 to 600. The get to a position where, if the Boundary Commission Conservatives wanted to reduce the number of MPs is going to be independent of political interference, but did not want the referendum; the Lib Dems wanted Clause 2 must be changed and the words the referendum but did not want to reduce the number “As soon as reasonably practicable” of MPs. The history lesson is this: coalition deals replaced with a much firmer formula. affecting our constitution, made behind closed doors My final point is this. I have been through a lot of with no effective consultation, are castles built on Boundary Commission decisions on the fringe in both sand, which deserve to collapse—as, thankfully, the the Labour and the Conservative parties. My experience 2011 Act now has. has been that the Labour Party is much better at I welcome the fact that the Bill maintains the size of discipline, so I would counsel my party,the Conservatives: the Commons at 650. That is particularly important at “Get your act together. Don’t get in the position that I a time when there are huge and increasing demands was in, where one Conservative association was appealing on MPs from their constituents. If we reduce the against the Boundary Commission’s decision and it number of MPs, we automatically increase the size of was being opposed by another Conservative association.” constituencies, which in turn increases the workload One of the reasons for losing out is when you do not of MPs—not the workload of noble Lords, as the think it out, and that is something which has to be noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, seemed to think; he omitted done. the obvious point that Members of the Commons have constituents to represent. Also, as my noble friend 7.02 pm Lord Adonis said, if we reduced the number of MPs Lord Holmes of Richmond (Non-Afl) [V]: My Lords, without reducing the number of Ministers, there would I start by congratulating my noble friend the Minister be proportionately fewer Back-Benchers to hold the on the clear and comprehensive manner in which he Government to account. has introduced this important legislation. I wish him I also welcome another part of the Bill, which is luck in steering his first Bill through your Lordships’ another rejection of the 2011 Act. Clause 1(3) changes House, but given his experience of and in the House the frequency of reviews from every five years to every and his leadership in local government, its success will eight years. The five-year review was always ridiculous, not be a matter of luck. coupled as it was with another failed piece of coalition I welcome the Bill, which is certainly a great Government constitutional meddling—namely,the Fixed- improvement and a step forward on its predecessor. term Parliaments Act, which decreed that general Perhaps I may gently recommend to my noble friend elections should take place every five years. That meant the Minister the recent report of the Select Committee that there would be brand-new constituency boundaries on Democracy and Digital Technologies, on which I at every general election: neither MPs nor their constituents was fortunate to serve under the excellent leadership would know who represented them from one general of my friend the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam. There election to the next. Eight years seems to me a sensible may be much fertile ground for my noble friend within compromise, ensuring that constituency electorates those pages. are kept reasonably up to date, and in normal times Like others, I associate myself with the comments would operate for at least two general elections. of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham. If the That brings me to a problem with the size of Boundary Commission is to do its job in the manner constituencies. There is an inherent contradiction in in which it has been charged, it does indeed need to be the Bill, which provides for five protected constituencies. insulated, so terms like “reasonably practicable” are I support that: inflexible, rigidly defined rules on nowhere near strong enough. Does my noble friend population size do not make sense. Yet in the same Bill agree that a friendly amendment to tighten those we are told that in no circumstances whatever must the words and put a time and date in would be an excellent remaining 645 constituencies deviate from the diktat 83 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 84

[LORD GROCOTT] As I am a Cumbria county councillor, my third of plus or minus 5%—leading to all the problems that point is a Cumbrian one: the case for greater flexibility various contributors to the debate have mentioned. I in constituency size. At present we have six seats, with hope that the Minister—he knows a bit about fighting an average electorate of 66,500—some 7,000, or about elections, and I am sure he would not like such changes 10%, below the quota. However, if we had only five to affect local government elections—will consider seats in Cumbria, they would each have 79,000 voters, the 5% and increase it to at least 7.5%; I would which is 10% above the quota. Therefore, on the criteria prefer 10%. of the Bill, equal size means crossing the boundaries These are all issues that we will deal with in Committee. of the top-tier Cumbria County Council boundary. My overall feeling is one of absolute relief that we are What is the position on this? Do the Government back to 650 MPs, and that the dreadful Parliamentary believe that that is the sensible thing to do? Also, think Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 is now about Cumbria. If we go north, it is another country— dead and buried. If only the coalition Government of Scotland. If we go east, we have the barrier of the the time had listened to the arguments of those in Pennines, and to the south we have north Lancashire, opposition, so much time, money and energy would where the Government, because of their thinking on have been saved. local government reorganisation, reject the idea of Cumbria expanding south. 7.08 pm There is no logic in the argument that mathematically equal constituencies produce votes of equal value. Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con) [V]: My Lords, Community is as important as this and should be those on the margins are the most affected by the changes. valued, and it is particularly important in a county There could be new MPs’ constituencies, and perhaps such as Cumbria, where the central bit is all mountains. new local authorities, crossing existing council boundaries If we want votes of equal value, we have to take —made by an order but not yet fully implemented. seriously a move to proportional representation, which That was what I understood from a statement in the personally I favour. However, that is a separate issue Minister’s speech. Residents are closer to, and more for another day. To sacrifice community for the sake of affected by, the policies and workings of their local some pursuit of mathematically equal constituencies authority than by those of a Parliament from which is in my view wrong. they often feel quite remote. There are 650 MPs, and the Bill aims to provide the 7.13 pm electorate with certainty and confidence on this subject, without further delay. I support that. As the noble Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]: My Lords, Lord, Lord Hussain, said, all should have the right to first, I congratulate the Minister on introducing this, vote. That is all very well, but a lot of people do not his first piece of legislation, and wish him very good exercise the right. In countries like Australia, where I luck. come from, people have the right to vote, but it is It is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, compulsory, and they are fined if they do not vote. Lord Liddle, who, as always, came up with some People there cannot say, as I find that people here valuable insights into the matter under discussion. As often do, “Oh, it’s a bit wet—or cold—tonight; I don’t an unelected Member of an unelected House, I tread think I’ll go out.” It has got to be either one thing or with some trepidation in discussing these matters. the other. Either it is all voluntary or, if it is obligatory, However, that said, they are important issues, and I that is a different matter. Residents really will benefit follow other noble Lords in recognising that. from the Bill, and I strongly support it. I support the measure in general terms—I think 650 constituencies feels about right, as does having 7.10 pm a review every eight years. That seems appropriate. Lord Liddle (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I will make three We should not apologise for having equalisation of points. First, I agree strongly with the noble Lord, constituency size as an aspiration and an aim. It is true Lord Cormack, that Parliament should retain the right that it cannot be achieved in any real sense, but clearly to approve or block recommendations of the Boundary it is something that should underpin our thinking. Commission. Not to do this would put far too much That said, when we look particularly at Wales, power in the hands of the Executive and would be a which I know something about, but at Scotland too further step in strengthening the Executive at the and indeed large parts of rural England, there are expense of Parliament—all against what the Brexiteers challenges of geography and of rurality in having said Brexit was all about. similar, let alone identical, sizes. That 5% margin in Secondly, I agree with my noble friends Lady Gale terms of seeking equalisation may need some adjustment. and Lord Foulkes, and other Scottish and Welsh That said, clearly the Chartists’ aim of equal votes has colleagues, that it is a mistake, particularly at this some validity. moment, to reduce the representation of Scotland and Along with other noble Lords, I certainly favour Wales when the future of the union is almost hanging the protection of certain constituencies such as the in the balance. If anything, the representation of the islands that we have protected—the Western Isles, smaller nations should be increased. In the medium Orkney and Shetland, the Isle of Wight and now, term, I favour a second Chamber with a balanced appropriately and quite rightly, Ynys Môn. That is representation of the nations and regions of England, absolutely right. I would be tempted too to add Cornwall, to offset the excessive power of London and the to prevent any Devonwall constituency arising. That south-east. would be a mistake. Cornwall has its own identity and 85 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 86 its own culture and language, and we should recognise 7.20 pm that in the review of constituencies in this piece of The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con) [V]: My Lords, I legislation. congratulate my noble friend the Minister on introducing The Bill that we have will clearly change, and it the Bill most ably. I welcome the Bill and will make a should change as it goes through its stages in your couple of brief observations. Lordships’ House. There is much to recommend it but Times have changed dramatically since the early much to be concerned about in terms of strict equality part of this year, let alone since 2000. The circumstances of constituency size, which I certainly will want to in which we now find ourselves are, at the very least, look at very closely. I also share some concerns with most challenging, and the future extremely unclear. my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham about Before Covid-19 hit, we had a vibrant jobs market possible political chicanery and actions leading to with many and varied skill requirements. That meant a proposals ending up being put on ice and not being considerable movement of labour around the country, carried forward. I welcome the Minister’s thoughts on and demographics had already undergone much change that and his reassurance that that is something he is in recent years. With the uncertainties of today and a seeking to address. jobs market under enormous negative pressure, it is highly likely that when we reach a new normal, those 7.16 pm demographics will change even more, and even more Lord Mann (Non-Afl) [V]: My Lords, anyone who often. has spent much time in one of the hearings on boundary This situation, and the challenges of life outside the reviews will know that it is possible to define community EU—of which I am a strong supporter—indicate that in a variety of contrary ways within a few minutes, the voting public need more and better representation from a few speakers. We all have our own definition of in Parliament. Consequently, their representatives will the communities that we live in, which is one of the have an increased workload, so I support Her Majesty’s problems. I am still waiting to hear from the Government Government’s plans to maintain 650 constituencies why there is this desire to move away from the 600. and introduce an automatic system for implementing The way that it was approached last time was not boundary changes recommended by the commission. particularly clever, but if the proposal to reduce the Very little good came out of the coalition, but I am number of MPs had been put to a referendum, it delighted to wish this Bill well. would have been overwhelmingly endorsed by the electorate. 7.22 pm It is certainly more than iniquitous that some Members Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]: My of Parliament can represent 80,000 electors and some Lords, I am glad that the Government have decided to represent under 50,000 and yet be contrasted as if they maintain the number of Members in the other place at were doing the same job. With today’s technology, that 650. When I was a Member of the other place, I voted is simply not possible. The volume of work with such a against that Bill and against the principle of reducing big variation is hugely significant to the pressures on the number of seats to 600; 650 seems a sensible number any individual, of whatever party or even of no party, to ensure that all parts of the UK are properly represented representing that many people. I speak as someone and maintains a link with all our diverse regions and who until recently represented 550 square miles, which communities, which would have been diminished if is the size of Greater London, and 80,000 voters, plus the number of seats had been reduced to 600. many eastern Europeans who are not counted in that parliamentary arithmetic. However, I have some reservations about the Bill. The 5% variance rule between constituencies seems If there are to be further improvements, the question overly rigid and prescriptive. Indeed, the legislation of electoral officers needs to be considered. My own recognises that this may not always be appropriate by experience is, very vividly, that a competent electoral increasing the number of protected constituencies from officer will do a very different job. I recall one occasion four to five. I also have concerns that the allocation of when there was an excellent new officer and the number seats favours England at the expense of the other on the register went down significantly.It was explained nations and regions of the UK. Northern Ireland to me that, even in places such as Bassetlaw, the dead maintains 18 constituencies but, under these proposals, do not vote, and they will no longer be on the register. Scotland loses three and Wales loses eight, while England To lose 2,000 at one go demonstrates the variation in gains 10. This seems a disproportionate shift of power systems, which is significant in all of this. towards the centre, which will embed “English votes I would like to see two things. One is ward boundaries for English laws”even more trenchantly.That is worrying, being sacrosanct. That is the kernel of local democracy especially as devolution means that the democratic and should be integral to any boundary review. dynamic across these islands is moving in another The second would be a much bigger change, but it direction. A locking clause to preserve seats in Scotland, is possible with technology. Where there is a mayor, as Wales and Northern Ireland at their current numbers in London, there should be one integrated register. of 59, 40 and 18 respectively will help them to maintain For London, Manchester and other areas with a mayor, their existing parliamentary influence. having one register would lead the way in reducing Another concern is that the Bill concentrates too anomaloussituations,tidyinguptheregisterandeventually much on numbers and not enough on communities to perhaps allowing people to vote in a variety of polling protect constituencies for all discrete areas by virtue of the stations rather than just one. One register for a mayoral fact that they are islands. By definition, these seats are election would be a huge democratic step forward. ordered on a “community first”approach. That approach 87 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 88

[BARONESS RITCHIE OF DOWNPATRICK] December 2020 registers to be used, rather than those should apply to constituencies in general, because which we had on 2 March this year. It is a bit rich for of the nature of community cohesion. Finally, there opposition parties to demand a register that would be must be parliamentary accountability for the final just eight months newer, when they have voted to keep recommendations from the boundaries review. That in place registers that are 20 years out of date. The Bill cannot be left to unelected quangos or to be dealt with is a manifesto commitment and I trust that we will not by Orders in Council. see the games that occurred in 2012 played here.

7.24 pm 7.28 pm Lord Blencathra (Con) [V]: My Lords, I cannot Baroness Kennedy of Cradley (Non-Afl) [V]: My agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Lords, after two false starts and the current boundaries Downpatrick, but I too congratulate my noble friend drawn on electoral data now 20 years old, this review the Minister on introducing this excellent Bill, which I is much needed. I welcome the return to 650 seats, the support. Last December, the general election was run eight-year review and the consideration of pending with constituencies ranging from 60,000 to 99,000. No local government reviews. However, on this latter point, one can argue that that is fair or democratic, so we can the Minister confirm in his response that the local must have equally sized constituencies with no more boundary reviews that were delayed due to Covid-19 than a 5% variation. will be completed before the Westminster boundary The Opposition want much larger variations, on review takes place? the basis that they would keep special and unique local Of the issues that I believe need to change, the first identities together. Those of us who have been through is the source data. The Bill ensures that every seat, boundary changes have always used that argument to with a few exceptions, has roughly the same numbers try to bend boundaries to maximise our political of voters within it so that, in the words of the Government, advantage. I have been at public inquiries here in Cumbria with my Labour and Liberal opponents, and “every vote counts the same”. we all argued for the most tortuous-shaped constituencies However, constituencies of equal size will not change imaginable based on them conforming to local travel- some MPs being elected on fewer votes than other to-workareas,socialhabits,localboundaries,communities, MPs, because turnouts always differ from seat to seat. cultural norms, mountains and lakes, motorways, The way to make every person count equally is to shopping habits or ancient history—such as the route count seat boundaries not by the number of registered followed by King Edward III when he invaded Scotland voters in a constituency but by the number of people. in 1356. They were all bogus arguments, as my noble This is what most modern democracies do. friend Lord Robathan said. We were all after a When a constituent asks a Member of Parliament constituency boundary with sufficient wards to give us for help, help is given whether or not they are registered a safe majority, but to give away enough of our to vote. Everyone who lives in the constituency is supporters so that we could take the neighbouring seat treated equally. Our boundary reviews should therefore for our party. Let no former MP now in this House treat people equally. For example, where I live, in deny that that was the game, because we all played it Lewisham, the electoral roll figure in December 2019 for political advantage. was just over 223,000, but according to ONS figures, Council boundaries are not nearly as important now the population of Lewisham is over 303, 000—a difference as in the past. My former constituency of 1,500 square of more than 80,000 people, and equivalent to an miles stretched from the Irish Sea to over the Pennines. extra parliamentary constituency. Using population I had one county council and three district councils. figures as the source data to draw Westminster seat While all of it was in England, we had some Scottish boundaries, instead of the electoral roll, will mean postal codes, as well as Cumbrian pupils going to that a heavy workload will not rest on too few shoulders school in Northumberland. One boundary was a little and people can be represented equally. If the data stream between Cumbria and Northumberland, which source remains the electoral roll, we need to make sure ran right through the middle of the village of Gilsland. that it is as complete and accurate as possible. There was no great difficulty dealing with those That leads me to my second point: the enumeration different authorities. Council boundaries are not date. More than a million people registered to vote sacrosanct. Politicians must not be allowed to shelve between December 2018 and December 2019. Given Boundary Commission reports or amend them. The this huge increase, will the noble Lord expand on the more I heard Labour Members today asking for the reasoning behind deciding to use March 2020 as the right of Parliament to interfere, the more I became highly enumeration date? Is the register at March 2020 more likely to support my noble friend Lord Young of accurate and complete than it was in December 2019? Cookham in imposing a time limit for implementation. If so, what is the difference in electoral numbers In 2012, we saw the disgraceful ploy by the Lib Dems between the two dates? to kick into touch the 2011 review. They are responsible Finally,the electoral quota is too narrow and hampers for our boundaries being another eight years out of date. the commission’sability to listen to sensible representations That follows the precedent of Jim Callaghan, who from the community. The commission needs flexibility ditched the Boundary Commission proposals in 1969. to make sensible adjustments to seat boundaries to Boundary Commission reports must be approved ensure that people in communities that have built up automatically, in a tight timescale. There is a track around, for example, geographic locations, transport record of the Labour and Lib Dem parties sabotaging hubs, university campuses, large factories, places of them for political advantage. Some also want the worship, community centres or housing estates are 89 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 90 effectively represented. Effective representation should will put down amendments; but we disagree fundamentally be as important to the commission as equalising seat with its assumptions about the nature of fairness, equal numbers. I look forward to the noble Lord’s response votes and democracy, about which the noble Lord, on these three issues. Lord Clark of Windermere, made a powerful speech. I remind the House of the historical justification 7.31 pm for the United Kingdom’s single-member first past the Lord Pickles (Con) [V]: My Lords, there was much post electoral system—a system now retained by only wisdom in my noble friend Lord Blencathra’sobservations, a small remnant of democratic countries, most notably but Members of Parliament do like to represent real the United States. It was that each Member of Parliament communities; it gives them the opportunity to represent represented a recognisable community—a borough or a distinctive voice. That is far better than being on a part of a shire: a coherent community with its own party list, where courage tends to increase the higher up sense of history and continuity, as Edmund Burke the list you are. It has always been about balance between wanted. communities and the electoral quota. After 20 years, the numbers are simply out of kilter: at one extreme, The Conservative proposal to squeeze variation there are 21,000 in a constituency, and at the upper in constituency sizes down to 5% was based on the extreme, 111,000. This is what happens when a review belief that differences in size between constituencies goes on for too long and the gap becomes too great. systematically favoured the Labour Party. Arguably it may have done, 20 years ago. But, as my noble friend The changes are simply a reflection of the changes Lord Tyler demonstrated, there is no evidence that it in the population. If there is a fixed number of seats, does so today. The Conservative Party does not need there has to be an electoral quota. As the former to distort constituency boundaries like this to protect Deputy Prime Minister said, its partisan interests, weakening further the link between “it is patently obvious that individuals’ votes should carry the historic communities and parliamentary seats. Lose same weight, and if that means reforming the rules for drawing boundaries, that is what we must do.”—[Official Report, Commons, the link with communities and you destroy the rationale 6/12/10; col. 35.] for first past the post. I may be the last Member of the clan to agree with The Government recognised that the sense of Nick, but there is some sense in that. community with regard to boundaries matters enough There has been much talk of the 5%, but minus to make exceptions for the Isle of Wight and now 5% or plus 5% means 10%. So, when we talk about Anglesey—but why not Cornwall? Why not Devon 7.5%, we are really talking about 15%, or when we talk and ? Common sense would suggest that we about 10%, we are really talking about 20%—and should, and the Minister will recall that the Prime Minister 20% is incompatible with fair votes. Of course, there loves appealing to common sense, against expert advice will be movement in parliamentary seats, but that just or against prejudice. Common sense would also suggest reflects what is happening on the ground. that, if the Government were really concerned with I have prepared many schemes for boundary reviews, fairness and equal votes, they would propose a different submitted evidence and appeared before a local inquiry, voting system. and I do not have the slightest doubt that the Boundary The Government’s justification for maintaining Commission is scrupulously fair. Where we have seen 650 MPs—the loss of MEPs increasing their workload—is dirty work at the crossroads, it has always been by the very weak. The workload of English MPs has increased political system, be it hiding behind Parliament, the in large part because the importance of local government Government voting down their own recommendations, and of local councillors has decreased. If we wish to dubious challenges in the courts, or some in your restore public trust in democracy, we should start by Lordships’ House getting into a strop over the loss of rebuilding local democracy and devolving more powers the AVreferendum. I therefore welcome the automatic from Westminster. The strongest argument against nature of the acceptance of the Boundary Commission: reducing the number of MPs was that it would increase to an extent, it removes much of the temptation to the Government’s influence over the Commons, as interfere, but in truth it simply raises the bar. several speakers have said, but perhaps the expanding Although I am open-minded, I thought that my role of special advisers that the Government are now noble friend Lord Young of Cookham made a reasonable pushing through means that we now need fewer junior point about setting a time period for laying the Ministers in any event. recommendations. I look forward to hearing the Unless the Government retreat from their manifesto Government’s considered response to this idea of a pledge on extending voting rights to long-term overseas self-denying ordinance. citizens—as they have just retreated on the promise of Finally, I congratulate my noble friend for the way a constitutional commission, as the Telegraph reports—we in which he introduced the Bill. However, I thought may expect another million or more names to be added that he made a mistake: he was far too eloquent, far to the register soon after the new boundaries have too erudite and far too competent. I am afraid that he been drawn up. If they are distributed evenly across will find himself in very high demand in future. the UK, it would add some 1,500 voters or more per seat—but of course the overseas voters are much more 7.34 pm likely to be concentrated in urban seats, perhaps up to Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]: My Lords, I 5,000 or 6,000 more in our major cities. That is a reiterate what we from these Benches have said about strong further argument for relaxing the 5% limit that this Bill: we welcome a number of its proposals; we the Government want to introduce, which we will have reservations about specific aspects, on which we want to discuss further in Committee. 91 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 92

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] post-Covid-19 phase. That we have been spared such The Bill is about the rules of democratic engagement a fate is a relief I share with my noble friend Lord Grocott. in the UK. As with all discussions on constitutional Had Parliament lost its right to have the final say, that rules, Governments should be careful to carry cross-party would have been passed into law and done and dusted opinion with them and avoid too narrow and obvious without a glance back by the then Government. a concern with partisan advantage. Ministers should That said, as noble Lords have heard, there are still always ask themselves: would I be happy if a Government matters in this Bill with which we on the Labour Benches of a different persuasion wanted to use executive disagree that need to be considered in Committee and powers in the way that we are doing? We will discuss beyond. A 5% variance either way from the norm of that, for example, on the question of parliamentary about 72,000 electors leaves a little room for manoeuvre— approval for Boundary Commission proposals. something between 68,000 and 75,000 constituents—but The Government’s withdrawal of their promise of a a 5% variance causes the most disruption to seats, commission on the constitution in favour of “expert compared with either 10% or 7.5%. Academic studies panels” to look at curbing the powers of the judiciary, of reviews in 2013 and 2018 show that this was the the functioning of prerogative powers and the relationship case. It was stated on both occasions that a wider margin between government and Parliament raises wider issues would produce more coherent, fairer constituencies. about our constitutional democracy.I assume the experts Why do the Government not want to allow the Boundary for these panels will be chosen by Michael Gove and Commission sufficient leeway to deal sympathetically Dominic Cummings—not a basis for broader public with any circumstances it may find? We have heard consent and certainly not the manifesto’s promise of a from Wales, Scotland and England that it will find those “look at the broader aspects of our constitution”. circumstances. There are factors that the Government After all, many speeches in this debate have argued cannot wish away—mountains here, rivers there or that we now need to look at our constitutional motorways built. They divide or unite constituencies. arrangements as they interact, including with the devolved Natural factors that combine constituencies can now nations, not tackle different aspects of our constitution cause separation. piecemeal as this Bill does. Can the Minister explain why the Government I recommend to the Minister for his holiday reading want to maintain the narrow channel for manoeuvre the excellent new book by Anne Applebaum, Twilight with the plus or minus 5% tolerance level? It has been of Democracy. She traces the way in which friends recognised, rightly,that there are particular circumstances she and her husband used to regard as democratic in Orkney and Shetland, the Western Isles, the Isle of conservatives in Britain, the United States, Poland and Wight and Ynys Môn but they are saying that there elsewhere have slid towards an acceptance of authoritarian are no other places in the country that have similar or populism, claiming that their party is “the real people’s comparable circumstances. We disagree. There are other party”—as the noble Lord, Lord True, said recently—and places in England and Wales that deserve more sensitive that it alone stands for the people, while dividing their treatment than the Bill allows.My noble friend Lady Gale countries and undermining their institutions and the reminded us that, especially in Wales, valley and hills rule of law. naturally separate constituencies and make communities There are those within the current Government feel a sense of belonging. The effect of this limitation who are clearly tempted by this betrayal of the would be to split more wards and make the coherence Conservative constitutional tradition. I hope that in between local authority boundaries and constituency the consideration of this Bill and in wider discussions boundaries less than it is currently. of judicial, parliamentary and executive reform, the Minister and his colleagues will stay true to the Burkean The fact that the Bill could vote down proposals tradition and carefully resist efforts to weaken the and the loss of such power are indicative of the conventions and rules that underpin our constitutional Executive’s hostility to accountability. Why do the democracy. Government not feel that Parliament is the appropriate body to have the final say on proposals? Currently it 7.42 pm serves as the last resort, but that would be removed by Lord Lennie (Lab): My Lords, this is a welcome Bill the Bill. It is not as though Parliament has stood in the and the noble Lord, Lord True, is to be congratulated way of change. The Bill increases the power of the on moving its Second Reading. It is certainly welcome Executive over Parliament. The fact that Parliament compared with that which the Tory-led coalition will lose the power to vote down proposals is indicative Government proposed—but all things are relative. of the Executive’shostility to accountability in Parliament. Then, the Tory Government proposed a reduction to In fact, the only time in recent history that might have 600 MPs while their coalition partner, the Liberal happened was when the Tory-led coalition supported Democrats, had suggested in their 2010 manifesto changes to reduce constituencies to 600. Why do the that they would reduce the House of Commons by Government feel that the Order in Council is a better, 150 Members. It is little wonder that they want to preferable system than Parliament having the final say move on from their 2010 position, and that the Tories on proposals? cannot resist the pressure from their own Back-Benchers In summary, the Bill is a welcome improvement on and have torn up the proposals that would have seen the previous Tory-led attempts to reduce Parliament’s the reduction to 600 Members. size, but it still has some way to go to become a good The reduction to 600 Members by the Tory-led piece of legislation. The Labour Party will bring forward coalition would have happened just as we were preparing amendments for consideration in Committee and we to leave the European Union and during—I hope—our will seek to serve that purpose. 93 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 94

7.47 pm Under the Bill, the Government will still be required to give effect to the recommendations of the Boundary Lord True: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for Commissions. As now, an Order in Council will be what he said and I thank all noble Lords who have used for this purpose. As noble Lords have said, the spoken, including those who have ventured to be kind change, which some have objected to, will be that about me. I have found in life that it is not the smile Parliament will not play a role in approving the draft you get at the front door when you arrive that really order and Ministers will no longer be able to modify counts but the curses you hear when the front door the proposals in the event that it was rejected by closes behind you when you go, so I will try to serve Parliament. We are reducing the role of both Parliament the House as well as I can. and government. However, Parliament does remain There have been some incredibly important and sovereign and can amend the primary legislation, providing thoughtful contributions. I shall not follow the noble the parameters for reviews as it sees fit. Lord, Lord Triesman, and my noble friend Lord Naseby My noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, followed in pointing out that probably never so many wise by other noble Lords, queried the possibility of future contributions have been made on elections by people Governments delaying implementation of the Boundary who do not have the right to vote in them. It has been Commission recommendations—as has happened before fascinating. —by taking more time than is necessary to submit the If your Lordships will forgive me, I will concentrate draft Order in Council for making. I am conscious of on those areas that are in scope of the Bill. We heard a the hour, but I will give a bit more detail, because I was lot about, for example, PR. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, asked to respond. The wording of this requirement said that it is an argument for another day. I thought it has been modernised to reflect current drafting practice. was an argument that had already had its day. I hope As some noble Lords have pointed out, the current that we can concentrate on some of the important legislation says, issues that have been raised in the debate. I am pleased “as soon as may be”, by the support voiced across the House for many of and the Bill includes the more common, up-to-date the key elements of the Bill—there have been doubters language of and how could there not be doubters in this great House?—in particular for maintaining the number “as soon as reasonably practicable”. of constituencies at 650. Although I noticed a small However,the meaning remains the same: any Government number of those voices on my side—I see my noble would be legally obliged to make the Order in Council friend Lord Hayward in his place—I think the majority promptly and without unreasonable delay. were for 650. I am also glad of the general support of My noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, supported the House for the new eight-year cycle and the addition by my noble friend Lord Blencathra, the noble Lord, of Ynys Môn as a protected constituency. Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, and other noble Lords Let me come to the first issue which has been a matter proposed that there should be a fixed time limit in of interest, to use a value-free word, to your Lordships’ which a Government should lay an Order in Council. House in debate, which is the so-called automaticity. I We are not minded to go in that direction, purely in anticipated this in my opening remarks and that proved to order to maintain some flexibility for the necessary be correct. My noble friends Lord Dobbs, Lord Mancroft, work in preparing the draft boundary order and the Lord Pickles, Lord Hayward, Lord Young of Cookham, associated order that designates the returning officer Lady Pidding and many other noble Lords supported for each newly drawn constituency. Time would be the changes to allow the automatic implementation of needed to allow for this preparatory work, and setting boundary review recommendations, as we propose. hard time limits can cause practical difficulties down Webelieve that automaticity will give the public confidence the line. I reassure the House that there would be little and certainty that the boundaries recommended by scope for undue—certainly not unreasonable—delay. the commissions will come into effect without risk of Any Government who sought to drag their heels over interference or further delay. the submission of a draft Order in Council would be I note the opposition, ably expressed by the noble at risk of legal challenge. With something as high Baronesses, Lady Hayter and Lady Barker, my noble profile as a boundary review, it seems likely that the friend Lord Empey, the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, move to challenge would be swift. We believe that to and other noble Lords. However, the purpose here is be an effective and appropriate safeguard against delay. to remove both Government and Parliament from the However, I have no doubt that noble Lords will return process, so that those finalised recommendations of to this in Committee. I assure the House that this the independent Boundary Commissions are brought Government’s firm and sole intention is to deliver the into force promptly, with no opportunity for blocking updated and equal constituencies that are now long or meddling of any kind. Under current legislation, overdue and to implement the recommendations made the citizen does not have certainty that this will happen, by the independent Boundary Commissions. and the boundaries of constituencies are now woefully I do not wish to try the patience of noble Lords, but out of date as a result. I repeat that other countries the other issue is tolerance and limits. During the Bill’s such as New Zealand, Canada and Australia have evidence sessions in the other place, witnesses pointed similar arrangements for implementing boundary reviews out that the setting of tolerance is a matter of judgment. which do not involve the final approval of the legislature. The House has heard differing judgments today; some I hope that, on reflection, your Lordships will come to noble Lords have agreed with leaving it as it is now, see that that does not present the dangers that some which is plus or minus 5%. This is, effectively, a fear. variation of 7,000 or more in the size of electorates, as 95 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 96

[LORD TRUE] automaticity.I agree—and the Government agree—that pointed out by some noble Lords, including my noble the commissions are independent and neutral; they friends Lord Taylor of Holbeach, Lord Dobbs and must and will remain so however their recommendations Lord Sheikh, with whom I agree. are implemented. When Ministers formally appoint We believe that the current tolerance level strikes commissioners, it is done only after a rigorously fair the right balance between achieving equal and fair and neutral recruitment process under the Governance boundaries and allowing the Boundary Commission Code on Public Appointments and overseen by the the flexibility to take account of other factors. There independent Commissioner for Public Appointments. are other factors and noble Lords have spoken about Finally, some noble Lords talked about the building them, such as physical, geographical features and local blocks on which constituencies are based. No doubt ties. However, this is subject to the overriding principle we will return to this in Committee as well, particularly of equality in constituency size. For something as the question of whether or how the Boundary critical as the right to choose the Government of the Commissions might split wards into smaller geographical day, surely equity and equality must be the overriding units. Other noble Lords spoke about polling districts. principles. The fundamental principle of “one elector, I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of one vote” should be upheld as nearly as possible. The Cradley, on the specific points she raised about the same should be true in Bangor as it is in Blyth. We local government reviews. As far as the 20 March date intend to uphold that principle. The elected Chamber is concerned, as I explained in my opening remarks, voted on three separate occasions against amending this is because we do not wish to wait to use the the 5% variance. I urge noble Lords to consider this as December 2020 date, given the potential impact of the Bill progresses through the House. Covid. Therefore, that is effectively the latest date not Many noble Lords spoke up for the union and were affected by Covid. concerned about the impact of this legislation on the The noble Lord, Lord Mann, spoke powerfully—as union. There was particular mention in this context of always—about community, as did the noble Baroness, rural constituencies with sparse populations.I understand Lady Gale, and others. I recognise that that matters; I where such noble Lords are coming from; I was have spent most of my lifetime representing a ward particularly struck by the very powerful speech on this and was proud to do so. Whether or not to divide by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale. Our union of wards is an issue for the independent Boundary nations is the most successful in history.This Government Commissions when conducting their reviews. It is are determined to sustain it and of course I share that already within their power to do so if they judge it to desire to see it at its strongest. It is a matter of be necessary, in their expert opinion, and after receiving judgment, which we can test in Committee, but the representations. Political parties and individuals will Government believe that equal votes for all the electors be able to make representations. of the union is an important part of maintaining its strength and the democracy at its heart. That is why A number of noble Lords returned to the issue of the Bill does not change the tolerance level put in underregistration. This was a widely and properly place by Parliament in 2011 with, at the time, very expressed concern in the House. Online registration strong support from the Liberal Democrats. The purpose has made it easier, simpler and faster for people to of the Bill is to achieve parity of representation for all register. It can take as little as five minutes and there electors across the union and within its constituent are no significant boundaries, if you have access to a nations. Surely, wherever a vote is cast, it should have computer. But not everybody does, and it is vital that the same power in deciding who governs our country. we get to the hard-to-reach people. We all want eligible That principle is a solid one and the Government electors to be registered, but we do not wish to compel continue to support it. people to register. That is a matter for the individual, not the state, and we are not tempted by the course The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and my noble friend referred to of compulsion. I have no doubt that we will Lord Bourne, asked about Cornwall, mentioning the have other discussions on this, not only on this legislation controversy caused by the 2018 review, when a but later in the Parliament. Without going into it at constituency that crossed county boundaries was length at the moment, there are a number of ways in proposed. It is important to recognise that that review which the Government are looking for ways to increase was based on 600 constituencies. While this will be a the level of registration. matter for the independent Boundary Commission, the changes under review are based on 650 constituencies In response to those who raised the possibility of and are likely to be less dramatic. I welcome the using alternative data to estimate electors—for example, comments made about public hearings and the move the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, floated the issue of to allow the public to come in later in the proceedings, census data—again, we can perhaps get into the detail although I take note of the point made by the noble of this in Committee. However,the Government consider Lord, Lord McNicol of West Kilbride, that the Boundary that the current process of using data from the electoral Commission must be flexible. register represents the most robust and transparent On the question of the Boundary Commissions, the picture of the electorate on which to base proposals. noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, Boundary reviews have always been based on registered and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and my noble electors, and we believe that that approach should friends Lord Dobbs and Lord Taylor of Holbeach all continue. raised the independence of the Boundary Commissions. On votes at 16, which was raised by the noble Lord, The noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, referred to this as well. Lord Adonis, who I see is in his place—I owe him a They all wondered how important this is in the light of reply, since he asked for it and is here—I have great 97 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill[27 JULY 2020] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 98 respect for noble Lords who have long campaigned to taken up—positions that I respect. I look forward to lower the voting age in parliamentary elections to 16. discussing the Bill in greater detail in Committee, but I However, the Government have no plans to do so and hope that I have made the Government’s position were indeed elected on a manifesto commitment to clear. retain the current franchise at 18. We may differ on the The provisions of the Bill have been endorsed by principle—I see from the noble Lord’s expression that the elected Chamber, to which it relates. To be frank, we do—but that is the position which the Government our current boundaries are horribly out of date and have adopted. we do not see a case for further delay. We believe that this legislation will help the Government to meet a In summary, I am incredibly grateful to noble Lords manifesto commitment to deliver updated and equal for their excellent and constructive contributions. I parliamentary boundaries to ensure that every vote counts have not been able to find an answer to my noble the same, and to do so on the basis of 650 constituencies. friend Lord Trenchard on high sheriffs, but I will write I urge noble Lords, on reflection, to support the Bill to him on that point. If I have not answered any of the and I commend it to the House. points in the debate, I will try to make sure that a letter is made available to all those who have taken part Bill read a second time and committed to a Grand covering points that, on reflection, I feel that I have Committee. not addressed. I realise that I will not have convinced everybody to withdraw from the positions they have House adjourned at 8.05 pm.