Second Session, 39th Parliament

official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 Afternoon Sitting Volume 19, Number 7

the honourable bill barisoff, speaker

ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

Second Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for the Olympics and ActNow B.C...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Advanced Education and Labour Market Development...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Minister of Agriculture and Lands...... Hon. Steve Thomson Attorney General and Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Children and Family Development and Minister Responsible for Child Care...... Hon. Mary Polak Minister of Citizens' Services and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and the Public Affairs Bureau...... Hon. Ben Stewart Minister of Community and Rural Development...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Minister of State for Mining ...... Hon. Randy Hawes Minister of Environment...... Hon. Barry Penner Minister of State for Climate Action...... Hon. John Yap Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for the Integrated Land Management Bureau...... Hon. Pat Bell Minister of Health Services...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Healthy Living and Sport...... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Housing and Social Development...... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Labour...... Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development...... Hon. Iain Black Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon. Shirley Bond

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Official Opposition...... Carole James Deputy Speaker...... Linda Reid Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Claire Trevena Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz Director, Hansard Services...... Jo-Anne Kern Acting Legislative Librarian...... Peter Gourlay Legislative Comptroller...... Dan Arbic ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Hon. Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... John van Dongen Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Kathy Corrigan Bennett, Hon. Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP)...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed...... Harry Bloy Black, Hon. Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Donna Barnett Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... John Les Cadieux, Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)...... Vancouver–Point Grey –Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Comox Valley...... Don McRae Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coell, Hon. Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Delta North...... Guy Gentner Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Juan de Fuca...... John Horgan de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Kamloops–North Thompson...... Terry Lake Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–South Thompson...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kelowna–Lake Country...... Norm Letnick Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kootenay East...... Hon. Bill Bennett Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria– Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hansen, Hon. Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena ...... John Rustad Hawes, Hon. Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nelson-Creston...... Michelle Mungall Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead New Westminster...... Dawn Black Heed, Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview North Coast...... Gary Coons Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Island...... Claire Trevena Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Parksville-Qualicum...... Ron Cantelon James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill North...... Pat Pimm Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Port Coquitlam...... Mike Farnworth Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Hon. Iain Black Lake, Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond East...... Linda Reid Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond-Steveston...... Hon. John Yap MacDiarmid, Hon. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Saanich North and the Islands...... Hon. Murray Coell Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich South...... Lana Popham McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Skeena...... Robin Austin McRae, Don (L)...... Comox Valley Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Panorama...... Stephanie Cadieux Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fraserview...... Kash Heed Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Bob (NDP)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kensington...... Mable Elmore Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Langara...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Stewart, Hon. Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Stilwell, Hon. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Colin Hansen Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano...... Ralph Sultan Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Yap, Hon. John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna...... Hon. Ben Stewart

Party Standings: Liberal 49; New Democratic 35; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 Afternoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 6113

Introduction and First Reading of Bills...... 6114 Bill M211 — Open Government Act, 2010 D. Routley

Statements (Standing Order 25B)...... 6115 B.C. Beef Day and ranching industry T. Lake Strathcona Provincial Park centennial C. Trevena Dorel Industries expansion in Burnaby H. Bloy New Westminster Salmonbellies D. Black Line R. Howard Water Watch Coalition conference S. Fraser

Oral Questions...... 6117 B.C. Hydro energy purchase agreement with Forrest Kerr project J. Horgan Hon. B. Lekstrom B. Ralston Impact of harmonized sales tax on used clothing costs S. Chandra Herbert Hon. C. Hansen Wedding costs and implementation of harmonized sales tax D. Black Hon. C. Hansen H. Lali Availability of meat-processing licences J. Brar Hon. I. Chong Acute care beds at St. Joseph's Hospital S. Fraser Hon. K. Falcon

Petitions...... 6121 D. McRae

Standing Order 81.1...... 6121 Schedule for debate on Bill 17 Hon. M. de Jong

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills...... 6122 Bill Pr401 — Horizons Unbound Rehabilitation and Training Society (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2010 J. Horgan Committee of the Whole House...... 6122 Bill Pr401 — Horizons Unbound Rehabilitation and Training Society (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2010

Report and Third Reading of Bills...... 6122 Bill Pr401 — Horizons Unbound Rehabilitation and Training Society (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2010

Second Reading of Bills...... 6122 Bill Pr402 — Vancouver Foundation Amendment Act, 2010 G. Hogg

Committee of the Whole House...... 6123 Bill Pr402 — Vancouver Foundation Amendment Act, 2010

Report and Third Reading of Bills...... 6123 Bill Pr402 — Vancouver Foundation Amendment Act, 2010

Committee of the Whole House...... 6123 Bill 20 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 3), 2010 (continued) G. Coons Hon. S. Bond V. Huntington Hon. M. de Jong Hon. B. Lekstrom J. Horgan

Reporting of Bills...... 6131 Bill 20 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 3), 2010

Third Reading of Bills...... 6131 Bill 20 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 3), 2010

Second Reading of Bills...... 6131 Bill 17 — Clean Energy Act (continued) B. Routley V. Huntington P. Pimm M. Mungall R. Cantelon D. Routley Hon. B. Penner

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 6158 Estimates: Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation (continued) B. Simpson S. Fraser Hon. G. Abbott S. Simpson M. Karagianis

Appendix...... 6188 6113

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 2, 2010 and president of the Khalsa Diwan Society of Vancouver, which is also called Ross Street, one of the oldest Sikh The House met at 1:34 p.m. temples in North America. This is the Sikh temple that fought for the rights for all [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] the people from Southeast Asia to get them rights. Also, anybody who ever needs any help, that's the temple that Routine Business goes and helps them. Would the House make all three guests very welcome to this House today. Prayers. J. Horgan: Joining us from the aging, decrepit and Introductions by Members nearly-falling-down Belmont Secondary School in my constituency are three young grade 11 students who L. Popham: It's family day at the Legislature for me had sent some positive vibes to the Minister of today. My husband, Jon, is here; my mother-in-law, Joan; Education in the hopes of a new school. They are Grant my mom, Lorna; and my sister-in-law Kath are here. It's McLachlan, Kelsea Bendell and Kira Chow. Would the first time for my husband to watch question period. the House please make these three students very, very So everyone be nice. welcome. [1335] D. McRae: I have four guests visiting me in the R. Cantelon: In the gallery today are at least 40 grade Legislature today. They are registered nurses from the 10 students from — well, if I seem a little biased — one of Cowichan Valley, Parksville and the Comox Valley. the best high schools in British Columbia, the Kwalikum Would the House make Brenda Hill, Genoa Daniel, Betty Secondary School. They're brought here by their teacher Fitzsimmons and Mary Wilton welcome. Mr. Jaret Abel. Please make them feel welcome as they observe the democratic processes in action. S. Fraser: I would like to join my colleague across the way from Parksville-Qualicum in recognizing Jaret H. Bains: It is my great pleasure to introduce my good Abel's class from KSS, Kwalikum Secondary School. My friend who is the president of the Khalsa Diwan Society in daughter graduated from there two years ago. I just Vancouver and also a long-term activist in the IWA and want to add one thing to the member for Parksville- Steelworkers now. He is here with his uncle and auntie Qualicum's welcoming, and that is that KSS rocks. from England, who are visiting him. Please help me wel- come them here to this great place of democracy. M. Dalton: Visiting us today in the gallery are three special and very important people in my life. First of all, R. Howard: It's a great pleasure to introduce five vis- my lovely wife and personal angel, Marlene. Also for itors from my city of Richmond. We have four directors the first time is my father, Peter Dalton, and his bride of and the executive director of the Richmond Chinese three years, Cleo Jones Dalton. community services society. They do great work. They're Cleo is a wonderful and brave woman. When she celebrating their 21st anniversary this year. The city married, she adopted six families, including 19 grand- benefits greatly from all their volunteer efforts. Would children at last count. She helped run a family logging the House please make them welcome. business for many years in the Enderby area. Dad is a man who I've always had tremendous respect D. Routley: I would like the House to help me make for. He was in the Canadian military for 36 years, going welcome, from the Hul'qumi'num Treaty Group, Mr. up through the ranks to become a captain. His service Robert Morales and his assistant Roseanne Daniels. included a stint with the United Nations peacekeeping Robert is a real leader in our communities, not just in force in Egypt. the community but a leader for all of us Would the House please make them all feel welcome. in the newcomer communities of the mid-Island as we consider the complicated issues that confront us all D. Routley: I have another guest that I'd like the House when it comes to reconciliation. to make especially welcome. Young Tali Campbell, who is sitting up in the press gallery, is a student reporter. D. Hayer: It is also my pleasure and the member He started the first student newspaper at John Barsby for Vancouver-Fraserview's Liberal riding president…. secondary school in Nanaimo. We had a lunch with three very special guests. One is [1340] Major Sanghera and Mr. Baldish Sanghera, who are I'm very pleased to have a young person who is con- from London, England, visiting here with their nephew, cerned with the affairs of the community and with what Kashmir Dhaliwal, who is a long-time community activist happens in this House, because it's so important to us, 6114 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

our future and to his life and those he will be reporting and one of the many nurses that deals with difficult cir- to. So welcome Tali Campbell. cumstances on a daily basis and does so with a smile. Please join me in welcoming her to this precinct. Hon. S. Thomson: It's family day in the Legislature, but it's also Beef Day in British Columbia. In the gallery D. Hayer: I have eight more special guests here. Six today we have many representatives of the ranching are our six Global INK students from India's IT school industry from British Columbia, from across the province. who are studying at UVic right now. These are top stu- We're very pleased that they were able to join us today dents from India who were offered to attend the graduate for an event at the Legislature celebrating B.C. Beef Day. schools at Oxford, Harvard, Stanford, Princeton and In the gallery — and I'd like the House to make them other universities. These special guests includeC hinmay welcome — are Roland Baumann, the past president of Misra; Nivedita Patnaik; Avirishu Verma; Pranav the B.C. Cattlemen's Association; Judy Guichon from Sakulkar; Saurabh Goyal; Vidhoon Viswanathan; Sean Merritt, the newly elected president of the Cattlemen's Cunnin, from UVic; and Jason Lesage, a stakeholder Association — just elected on Saturday as the new relationship coordinator from MITACS Inc. at UBC. president of the association; Bill Freding, the president Would this House please make them very welcome. of the B.C. Cattle Feeders Association; Kevin Boon, [1345] the executive director of the association; Karen and John Kochel with the B.C. breeders association; Chief Introduction and Harold Aljam from the Coldwater band, who is also the First Reading of Bills president of the First Nations Agricultural Association; Mark Grafton from Prince George, a director of the as- BILL M211 — Open Government Act, 2010 sociation; Ted Haney from the Canada Beef Export Federation; and Janet Canters from the Beef Information D. Routley presented a bill intituled Open Government Centre. Act, 2010. They're all here today to help us celebrateB eef Day in B.C., so I'd like the House to make them welcome. D. Routley: It gives me pleasure to rise to introduce Just to make it official,I 'd like to read the proclamation the private members' bill, Open Government Act, 2010, proclaiming Beef Day in British Columbia. for first reading. "To all to whom these presents shall come: greeting. "Whereas B.C.'s grasslands produce some of the world's Motion approved. highest-quality cattle; and whereas B.C. beef producers are renowned for the way in which their cattle are raised in a healthy environment and ecologically sustainable manner; and whereas D. Routley: At a time when voter turnout and faith B.C. cattle are part of an integrated Canadian beef production in government is at unseen lows, it is incumbent on system that is the third-largest exporter of beef worldwide and us as leaders to move to restore that faith. The fourth well respected for having a high-quality finished product; and whereas ranching in B.C. has the advantage of proximity to President of the United States, James Madison, said that markets and the drive to move ahead in a competitive world; a popular government without popular information or and whereas the ranching industry supports B.C.'s economy the means to acquire it is but a prelude to farce, tragedy through more than $250 million in cattle sales and more than or both. James Madison paints for us a picture timely in 8,700 jobs; and whereas the Ranching Task Force has a goal to increase the profile of ranching inB ritish Columbia to the public today's democracy. and the government; and whereas our Lieutenant-Governor, by This act takes advantage of changes in electronic and with the advice and consent of the executive council, has technology to promote routine disclosure and decrease been pleased to enact Order-in-Council 903 on October 11, 2002. overall government costs of disclosing information "Know ye that we do by these presents proclaim and declare that June 2, 2010, shall be known as Beef Day in the province of while expanding general public access to information. British Columbia." This act also recognizes the role of reasonable data- sharing of personal information while safeguarding an Hon. J. Yap: Further to the introduction by the member individual's right to privacy by adding a requirement for Richmond Centre, I'd also like to add my greetings to that the Freedom of Information and Protection of our visitors, great community leaders from the Richmond Privacy Act provide for privacy impact assessments, to Chinese Community Society who are here with us. They be completed in a timely way so that they may guide all are Clara Chow, president; Norman Sung, vice-president; future electronic records projects. Evelyn Lau, past president; Teresina Lau, director; and These amendments restore government accountability their executive director, Henry Beh. Would the House by creating a duty to document decision-making, giving please give them a warm welcome. the commissioner power to oversee the Document Disposal Act and increasing the scope of the act to include infor- B. Routley: I would like to join the member for Comox mation from quasi-public bodies and alternative service Valley in welcoming Brenda Hill. She's a registered nurse providers, ensuring public access to information concerning Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6115

bodies that are paid public dollars for performing gov- The ranching industry has faced tough times — ernment functions. drought, BSE, the high Canadian dollar — but we know Finally, this act increases the transparency of govern- that the men and women of the range are resilient. ment with regards to information available to the public. Working with the Ranching Task Force, the industry is By expanding the scope of the Freedom of Information committed to finding new markets both at home and Act, enhancing the public interest paramount principle abroad, conducting research into new management and and limiting exceptions under section 13, it restores a marketing techniques and ensuring that ranching remains high standard for public access to information. Coupled not just a historic B.C. industry but one with a very bright with improvements in the time and cost involved, this future. act improves government accountability, transparency In closing, I want to remind the House that wood is and openness. good, but beef is better. I move that this bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting after today. STRATHCONA PROVINCIAL PARK CENTENNIAL Bill M211, Open Government Act, 2010, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders C. Trevena: Tens of thousands of people hike, bike, of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the canoe and camp through B.C.'s oldest provincial park House after today. every year. This year one camping trip in Strathcona Provincial Park is going to be a little bit different. The Statements Strathcona Centennial Expedition is marking the (Standing Order 25B) 100th anniversary of B.C.'s first and, I'd argue, still per- haps B.C.'s foremost park by recreating the expedition B.C. BEEF DAY AND RANCHING INDUSTRY which originally explored the area on central Vancouver Island. T. Lake: Today is the first annual B.C. Beef Day in The land had already been determined to be a park British Columbia, and today we celebrate the men and when the Minister of Lands, Price Ellison, and a party women who raise the high-quality beef that many of us of 23 left Campbell River in July 1910 to assess the ter- enjoy on a regular basis. ritory. Setting off along the Campbell River lake chain For well over a hundred years British Columbians and then on foot, it took the group three weeks to reach have been ranching on the high-quality ranges that the summit of Crown Mountain and from there a view cover much of our province, particularly in the Interior, of the magnificent swath of countryside which was to where western ranching traditions are part of the fabric become the park. of most communities. Over 4,000 ranches operate in It continued on via , eventually reaching Port the province, from small hobby operators to the 20,000- Alberni. This July the StrathconaC entennial Expedition head Douglas Lake Ranch. will set off from Campbell River to recreate Ellison's Ranching is one of the few enterprises that uses a com- route — canoeing the Campbell lakes, Buttle Lake and pletely renewable resource: grass, known in the Cariboo Great Central Lake, hiking the mountains and the passes. as green gold. Cows and their calves turn B.C. sunshine Recreating the trek was the dream of island mountain- into protein, utilizing our high-quality grasslands, and eer and publisher Philip Stone from Quadra Island. It help us feed us here at home and many around the has been years in the inception, and with the execution world. coming soon, the final details are being worked out, in- Not only does B.C. beef taste good; it's good for you. cluding where and when people can join in. Research at Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops Philip isn't doing it just because he can. He loves the and the University of Alberta in Edmonton indicates area and wants to raise awareness of the beauty and that a conjugated linoleic acid, a fatty acid found natur- the history of Strathcona Provincial Park. But it is also ally in all dairy and beef products, may have considerable an effort, in times of receding government dollars, to benefits for human health, including the prevention and start the Strathcona centennial legacy fund, which will reduction of several chronic diseases. enhance stewardship and rehabilitation within the prov- B.C. ranchers are also among the best stewards of the incial park. environment, as they understand that the two critical People hold Strathcona Provincial Park very dear to inputs, grass and water, are precious resources that need them. There were massive protests when a mine was to be protected for future generations of ranchers. Many approved at Myra Falls. People are concerned about ranches have carried out environmental farm plans that horse trails being allowed in the Bedwell Valley, and the guide their operations and have won national awards for Friends of Strathcona Park are working on trails and their sustainable management. upkeep. The centennial expedition will show the world [1350] what we already know: it is a jewel to be protected. 6116 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

DOREL INDUSTRIES EXPANSION The 'Bellies represented Canada at the 1928 Olympic IN BURNABY Games in Amsterdam as a demonstration sport and were gold-medal winners. They certainly deserved this H. Bloy: Recently a business made a decision to honour, because they worked their way across Canada expand into my riding of Burnaby-Lougheed. This playing exhibition games in order to pay for the voyage company is Dorel Industries, a major world supplier of and then played numerous games in Britain and Europe sporting goods and equipment. I was present to open to pay their expenses and worked their way home across Dorel's new 100,000-square-foot apparel and footwear Canada to pay for the train. complex, which will develop cycling and running gear. This was a truly determined effort of amateur athletes, This company was started by three brothers from as opposed to the U.S. team that year, which was hand- Montreal — Alan, Jeffrey and Martin Schwartz. Dorel picked by an American soldier, better known as General is commonly known for their production of high- Douglas MacArthur, U.S. Olympic president that year. performance bicycles. I'm sure you're all familiar with In '54 the Shamrocks imported the famous Jack Bionda the Schwinn bicycles, just one of the many brands that from Ontario. He quickly tired of Island life and moved Dorel produces. to the Salmonbellies. They will hire more than 225 people in the new facility, Clearly, in spite of the rhetorical flourish of the member, and that's excellent news for my riding. You know, Dorel the luck of the Irish is neither with him nor with the has been a special company. They have recreational Shamrocks. When New Westminster once again wins facilities located on their premises to encourage employees the league trophy, I challenge the member to wear this to maintain physical activity. They have recreational glorious team jersey at the opening game of the playoffs. rooms with ping-pong, weight-training rooms and even a rock band room. Mr. Speaker: Did the member wish to continue with Another thing that Dorel does is rent lockers at the some more? [Laughter.] production Skytrain station, 12 lockers, complete with bicycles for their employees to ride back and forth from canada line work and to help out on the carbon footprint. You know, Dorel is one of the world leaders in produc- R. Howard: There were those who said it couldn't be done, tion. They have over ten million square feet of production there were those who said it shouldn't be done, and there facilities around the world, and I believe it's nearly one were those who said it must be done. This was a project million square feet in Canada now. Dorel has situated that I had the pleasure of being with from start to finish as their central call system worldwide in Burnaby, hiring a city councillor. I'm speaking, of course, about the Canada additional people and keeping this call centre open from Line. I'm congratulating all those people who believed in five to ten each day. this project and brought it to such a successful conclusion. James Bottoms is the heart and soul of the company and The Canada Line links downtown Vancouver to the person who has really worked with all the employees Richmond and the airport. During the Winter Olympic to make it the place to be. Dorel is a proud Canadian and Paralympic Games the true value of the Canada company, and I am proud that Dorel has chosen my Line was demonstrated daily. Hundreds of thousands of community in which to locate their newest plant. passengers, tourists, residents, volunteers and commut- ers shared the experience of riding this most amazing NEW WESTMINSTER SALMONBELLIES part of a great transit system. Hearing spontaneous bouts of O Canada being sung D. Black: In April the member for Juan de Fuca en- by Olympic fans on the Canada Line is a memory I will thusiastically promoted his hometown lacrosse team, cherish. The experience that we all had with theC anada the Victoria Shamrocks, and predicted that the New Line during the Olympics translated into increased Westminster Salmonbellies would "get a kicking" in their ridership overall, and it's continuing to grow today. first match of the season in Victoria. Had the member Right now almost 100,000 passengers per day take the looked at the record book, he would have known that Canada Line, which is three years ahead of schedule of the Salmonbellies have won 24 Canadian championship TransLink's target. Mann Cups, compared to only eight for the Shamrocks. The Canada Line is taking cars off our roads and tak- [1355] ing carbon dioxide out of the air. The Canada Line is So the member should not have been surprised when keeping congestion off our highways and leaving more New West defeated Victoria 8 to 4 that night before a de- money in pockets of consumers. The Canada Line is jected crowd of 2,500 Shamrocks faithful. He concluded supporting the growth of Richmond and is making the his remarks by calling the Salmonbellies pathetic and connection to YVR easier than ever. sad sack. There's more from the record book on the To those who said it couldn't be done and shouldn't legendary Salmonbellies to educate my friend. be done, I say enjoy your meal of crow. To those who Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6117

got it done, on behalf of the people of Richmond I say announcement is that it is a 60-year term with the thank you. The Canada Line is a legacy for the province consumer price index indexed over the course of that of British Columbia. period of time. Unfortunately, Forrest Kerr only has a 40-year water licence. vancouver island My question is to the Minister of Energy. How is it that water watch coalition conference the government of British Columbia will allow a 60-year contract on a 40-year licence? How do you do that? S. Fraser: The member for Nanaimo and I had the honour of attending a major conference last Sunday. We Hon. B. Lekstrom: As the member stated, last Friday were in good company. Some 500 concerned citizens was a great day — a great day for the people of the north- joined us in Nanaimo at Beban Park for Your Water, Your west of this province, a great day for the Tahltan Nation, Future. The theme of the Vancouver Island Water Watch good news for the ratepayers of British Columbia and Coalition's forum was an important one — in essence, our something I'm very proud of. As with all projects, the survival on this planet. Water is key. proponent must obtain all of the environmental and The goal was to inform citizens of the dangers of regulatory requirements to meet the needs of that. They privatization of water and watersheds that sustain our will be looking at a 40-year water licence. They will have communities. The premise is that a well-informed public to apply for a renewal of 20 years, and at that time the will make the right choices for themselves, for the determination will be made. communities they live in and for generations to follow. But Member, I do want to say…. I know you seem Vancouver Island Water Watch is a non-partisan, to think that Friday was somewhat to be hidden, in the multicommunity organization that has expanded to in- implication of your question. I can tell you we're very clude groups in every region of Vancouver Island. These proud of this and what's taken place, and let me tell you, regional groups are composed of individuals, ecumenical the Tahltan are as well. organizations, environmental organizations, businesses, social justice activists and organizations, anti-poverty Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. organizations, unions, retired workers and others. [1400] J. Horgan: You can always tell how proud a govern- They coordinate activities with independent local and ment is by how late on a Friday afternoon they issue the regional coalitions who actively promote the protection press release. Now, this one did come out before five of community water and watershed systems, commun- o'clock, so I guess there is a modest amount of pride in ity watersheds and the environment and the precious that. resource that water is in our communities. But I have another question for the minister. If he Talk about a great lineup of speakers. Maude Barlow doesn't want to talk about the term, let's talk about how is the national chairperson of the Council of Canadians much it's going to cost British Columbians for this fixed- and senior adviser on water to the United Nations. I've term, 60-year indexed contract. seen Maude speak before, and she is brilliant. Her analysis The minister has said he will not buy power that he of the dangers we all face from the commercialization, can't sell on the open market. Will the minister today commodification and privatization of water is riveting, tell us the megawatt cost of this project? How much is it compelling and inspiring. going to cost for one megawatt hour of electricity from Following Maude Barlow, we heard no less compelling the Forrest Kerr run-of-river project? presentations from a star-studded cast, including two former members of this House, Rafe Mair and Corky Hon. B. Lekstrom: With all due respect, it clearly Evans. Other very informative presenters included shows with those comments that he doesn't understand Arthur Caldicott, Ingmar Lee, Robin Mathews, Trevor how the markets work or how business works or how Wicks and Andrew Gage. you actually have to make these. Let me tell you. Let me leave no…. Oral Questions Interjections. B.C. HYDRO ENERGY PURCHASE AGREEMENT WITH FORREST KERR project Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat for a second. Members. J. Horgan: Last week the government and B.C. Hydro Continue, Minister. quietly announced that they had signed an electricity purchase agreement with the AltaGas Income Trust Hon. B. Lekstrom: If there's any question of how for the Forrest Kerr run-of-river project in northwest- proud we are, I'll reiterate it. I'm extremely proud of a ern British Columbia. The interesting thing about this situation where we can actually benefit the people of 6118 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

northwest British Columbia, we can benefit the Tahltan B. Ralston: British Columbians themselves have First Nation, and we can actually have a company that's long been the main beneficiaries of British Columbia's going to invest and create jobs. hydroelectric resources, but that's clearly changing. This [1405] is a very long-term energy purchase deal; 60 years is Let me tell you something, Mr. Speaker. What I find unheard of. Roberto Luongo's contract with the Canucks very interesting from the member is that until 2003, looks like an overnight fix compared to this. when our government made the change, there was no The company is bearing no risk at all because B.C. expiration date on the water licences issued by the NDP Hydro has guaranteed to buy all the power. during the 1990s. I want to take the opportunity to read into the record the Boston Bar–Scuzzy Creek generating Interjections. station — no expiration date on the water licence. Soo River plant — no expiration date on the water licence; Mr. Speaker: Members. they're in perpetuity. The list is long, Member. So to question a project of B. Ralston: Either the minister doesn't know the this magnitude, one that benefits not only the people answer or he just won't share it with the public. How of the northwest, not only the Tahltan Nation, but all much is he paying Forrest Kerr for the power from this British Columbians, I have to question your business contract? sense, Member. Hon. B. Lekstrom: I think the member knows — we've Mr. Speaker: The member has a further supplemental. canvassed this numerous times — that due to confiden- tiality we don't put out specific prices, but if the member J. Horgan: I could feel the pride when the minister and the opposition want to listen, the range of prices that said that he was going to be buying low and selling high. is paid for clean energy in British Columbia will be made But he didn't get that out. available. We do that. We've made that commitment. Let me help the minister out a little bit. The average But the other one is…. I can tell you the big difference. price of the private power that the government has been We don't support being a net importer of electricity. We're signing up for is $88 to $120 a megawatt hour. Now, the committed to becoming electricity self-sufficient in minister will know that the five-year average for electri- British Columbia again. We're going to continue to do that. city on the commodity market is $54 a megawatt hour. So we're buying at $120 and selling at $54. Interjections. I want all members of the House to take some comfort. [1410] Over the past 18 months, the government has had one day — one day in 18 months — where they were able to Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat for a second, Member. make some money off this private power. Members. So again to the minister: will he tell the people of The member has a supplemental. British Columbia what the cost is for this 60-year indexed agreement for an income trust from Alberta? B. Ralston: Well, a direct award of the contract, no public oversight. Is it any wonder the public is suspicious Hon. B. Lekstrom: I think the member implied that of these kinds of deals? Why doesn't the minister just I said we would buy high and sell low. I've said nothing answer the question: how much is the public paying for of the sort. power from Forrest Kerr? But the member seems to have a problem with invest- ment. What I will tell the member is that we're in favour of Hon. B. Lekstrom: The member can ask the same investment in British Columbia. We're in favour of gen- question a hundred times. He'll get the same answer. erating clean, green, renewable electricity. We're going to Member, I've actually done that. Let me tell you, what we continue to do that, but if the member is implying that are…. because there's a company from Alberta that actually is What the member is saying is that the opposition is in going to reap a benefit, I encourage the member to go favour of importing dirty energy regardless of whether back, to look at the numbers, to look at the contracts that it's cheaper. We're in favour of generating clean, green you entered into, Member, when the opposition was in renewable energy in British Columbia that creates job, government — Alberta companies, Ontario companies. Member. You know what? I'm proud that people want to invest There's also, I want to point out, a significant benefit. in British Columbia. I'll tell you another thing. We're going We committed to building the northwest transmission to continue in the direction to create jobs in British line. We have an agreement with the federal government. Columbia and create clean, green, renewable electricity, We now have a $180 million contribution towards this and we're going to do it on our terms. line that's going to help the people of the northwest. It's Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6119

going to help the Tahltan Nation, and it's going to help base. They've told me they don't want to charge their the ratepayers of British Columbia. customers more — many of whom are living on fixed incomes — and they also want to support reusing clothes IMPACT OF HARMONIZED SALES TAX because it's good for the environment. But starting July ON USED CLOTHING COSTS 1, the B.C. Liberals are forcing them to charge more. [1415] S. Chandra Herbert: From restaurant meals to People of B.C. have been loud and clear about this the tourism sector, the HST betrayal will hurt British government's HST betrayal. Will the minister stop de- Columbians every step of the way. Now we learn even fending the indefensible and scrap the HST? used clothing is going to become more expensive under the HST. Starting July 1, stores like Value Village, stores like Hon. C. Hansen: I'm glad the member brought up Salvation Army will be forced to charge their customers the example of seniors, because I can give you, again, an additional 7 percent. some actual facts from Joy MacPhail's budget of 2001 To the Finance Minister: why are B.C. Liberals making and what a senior couple, with $30,000 of pension in- it more difficult for B.C. families to purchase affordable come, would have paid in their total provincial taxes reused clothes? under Joy MacPhail's budget. It would have been a total of $5,103. Hon. C. Hansen: As I outlined yesterday, B.C. families Under a B.C. Liberal budget from 2010, including the that are low- and modest-income families are going to harmonized sales tax and the benefit of the HST credit receive the benefit of the HST credit, a cheque in the that comes off, that same senior couple will be paying mail every three months, to help offset some of those $2,500 less. things that will cost a little bit more. Yesterday I also shared with the House some compari- Interjections. sons as to what a family would pay in personal income tax today compared to what they would have paid on Mr. Speaker: Members. the same amount of income in 2001. It's interesting that one of the opposition members asked me where my…. WEDDING COSTS AND IMPLEMENTATION OF HARMONIZED SALES TAX Mr. Speaker: Members. Minister, just take your seat. D. Black: This government's flimsy defence of the Continue, Minister. HST is simply infuriating the public. With the wedding season just around the corner, B.C.'s brides and grooms, Hon. C. Hansen: One of the members asked where who've been planning their big day for months, are now the facts came from and questioned the facts. Actually, the being forced to pay much more with the HST. Venue facts for what that person would pay in 2001 came out of rentals, catering, wedding planners, air travel, tailoring a budget document that has Joy MacPhail's picture on — all of them will cost more under the HST, and the list page 3. goes on and on. Let me just share for the House another example that Brides and grooms are just one group who will be comes, again, out of that same budget document with hurt by this betrayal, but they are part of the hundreds Joy MacPhail's picture on it from 2001. This is about of thousands of British Columbians who've said no to the total taxes that a family of four would pay in British the HST. Columbia — all the taxes — income tax, including the So my question is to the Premier. Will he finally do sales tax and the harmonized sales tax, as it will be. the right thing, just say, "I do," and scrap the HST now? A two-income family of four earning $60,000 a year, according to Joy MacPhail in 2001, would pay a total Hon. C. Hansen: What we saw in the 1990s, actually, of $14,478 in taxes to the provincial government. On was young married couples who had no job opportun- Budget 2010 it's got the apples and apples comparison. ities in British Columbia. That's why in the late 1990s we That exact same family today would pay only $11,031. saw 50,000 young British Columbians leave this prov- ince in search of job opportunities elsewhere. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. What we actually see today, because of the tax changes that this government has made, is more job opportun- S. Chandra Herbert: Well, I asked about old clothes, ities for young families in British Columbia so that they not old lines, not used lines that the minister tries to can actually have more money in their pockets and they apply to this issue. can build a future in this province. In my riding the West End Seniors Network runs a popular used clothing store and has a very loyal client Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. 6120 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

D. Black: Well, clearly British Columbians can see now uninvited, shows up with his hands in the back pockets what the Liberal election vows are worth — nothing. of the bride and groom just before they're about to say The B.C. Liberal HST was concocted in the middle their "I do's." of summer only days after the provincial election, when My question is this. The people of British Columbia they promised not to implement the HST. As soon as the did not get a chance to vote on the Liberal double-cross election was over, it was sprung on the people of British that took place. Will the Minister of Finance please do Columbia without any warning or any consultation. the right thing today: scrap the HST and leave wedding Now it's clear that the B.C. Liberal HST betrayal will couples alone so that they can go off and enjoy their spare no one, not even the couples who are preparing honeymoons without the minister's hands in their back for their weddings, not even their families who are sup- pockets? porting them in one of the most exciting but expensive undertakings of their lives. Hon. C. Hansen: I think the only time that British Again to the Premier. Across B.C. hundreds of thou- Columbia couples felt the government had their hand in sands of people have rejected the HST. Will he finally their pocket taking out all their spare change was when do the right thing, stand up in the House today and say: the NDP were in power. I can tell you that if that young "No, cancel the HST"? married couple each had an annual income of $50,000, [1420] they would each be paying 50 percent less in personal income tax than they would have under the NDP. That Hon. C. Hansen: This is coming from a member of a would only be because what was happening in the 1990s political party that actually taxed young families out of was that most young couples, when they headed off on this province in the 1990s. their honeymoon, were heading to Alberta on a one-way As opposed to the NDP, which actually turned British trip. That's where the jobs were. Columbia into a have-not province, we have made British Columbia into a have province. We have made sure Interjections. that tax rates have come down for those young families. Every young married couple in British Columbia today Mr. Speaker: Members. is paying thousands of dollars less in taxes than they The member has a supplemental. would have in 2001 under the NDP. H. Lali: The minister's answer is about as lame as his Interjections. excuse that they weren't going to do the HST in the mid- dle of the election. Hon. Speaker, there's a lot of diligent Mr. Speaker: Members. planning that wedding couples do before they're about to get married. H. Lali: You've all seen…. [1425] There are a whole lot of items like photography; the Interjections. cake; planning for the band; the deejay; dry cleaning; hairstyling — and the Minister of Finance ought to Mr. Speaker: Members. know a thing about hair styles; catering; refreshments; Member, just take your seat for a second. decorations; and the list just goes on. Now they find out I remind members that we want to listen to the their weddings are going to cost them 12 percent more question and listen to the answer. The member for because of the tax grab. Last summer…. Fraser-Nicola has the floor. Interjections. H. Lali: You've all seen the commercial on television with the bankers with their hands in your back pocket. Mr. Speaker: Take your seat. They follow you around. We know that the Minister of Continue, Member. Finance is going to tax you from birth until death. Just imagine the shock of British Columbians, obviously, when H. Lali: Last summer the B.C. Liberals broke their they found out that weddings were also on the list. promise about the HST. This year couples find out they're Maybe the Minister of Health cheated. He avoided actually going to be paying more for their weddings. paying the HST. He got married and had a kid just in the So to the Minister of Finance again: will he actually last year alone. Maybe it should be insider trading taking respect the will of the people of British Columbia, aban- place here. don his hated HST plan that he's got right now, disinvite Weddings are a special time for families, for friends, himself from people's weddings and keep his sticky for food and music, song, love and romance. You get the fingers out of the back pockets of wedding couples who picture. Then all of a sudden, the Minister of Finance, are about to go off on their honeymoons? Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6121

Hon. C. Hansen: I think what we just heard from Will the minister agree today to halt cuts to St. Joseph's the member for Fraser-Nicola is actually sad, because Hospital, provide adequate funding for residential care and what he said was that weddings would cost 12 percent stand up for the medical staff, registered nurses, licensed more. That is absolutely false. That is absolute nonsense, practical nurses and the entire staff who make the hospital and it's an example of the kind of misrepresentation and function? misinformation that is being spread by members of the opposition and members of some of the campaigners on Hon. K. Falcon: We've canvassed this in the House the anti-HST campaign. before. As I pointed out at that time, and I would em- I know that the NDP have had to go outside and get on phasize again, I think it's important that the member not the bandwagon with Mr. Vander Zalm. I think it's a clas- misrepresent what's actually happening. The fact of the sic example of how the NDP have become a net importer matter is that the only cuts to acute care beds that ever of political power. took place at St. Joseph's took place in the 1990s — the 13 percent reduction. AVAILABILITY OF What is happening now, and the member should MEAT-PROCESSING LICENCES know this…. I've actually worked very closely with the MLA for Comox Valley. What is happening in this hospital J. Brar: The people of British Columbia know very and other hospitals is that you have a number of patients well that it was this minister and this Premier who mis- in the hospital who are often seniors, though not exclu- informed people of British Columbia about the HST. sively, that have had their acute care needs looked after This government recently introduced a new meat- and are now waiting to transition to either residential processing licence called a class D licence, which will care or back to the community. allow farmers to process their animals on site, sell their But until they are able to do so, it is entirely appropri- meat from the farm gate and directly sell to stores and ate — in fact, a practice used increasingly around the restaurants. However, D licences are available in Powell world — that you congregate those beds into one part River but not right across the water in Campbell River. of the hospital and provide the appropriate level of care. My question to the Minister of Healthy Living and That's exactly what's happening at St. Joseph's. Sport is very simple. Why is this government making D I can tell you this, as a final point. One thing I know licences available to some communities in the province for sure is that the MLA for Comox Valley is also work- but not to others? ing on another important initiative, and that is to ensure a new hospital in the Comox Valley to build on the other Hon. I. Chong: One of the reasons why we introduced investments we made in capital projects on Vancouver our meat inspection regulations for the province was Island. That's what we're doing on this side of the House. because we want to ensure the safety of food for the public. What we know is that when we introduced this in 2004, [End of question period.] there would be some challenges, and we allowed for a number of transitions to take place. We provided $11.9 Petitions million to help those food processors put in those plans that would allow for the safe slaughter of meat so that D. McRae: Well, believe or not, I have a petition from the public would have that safety of their food. approximately 8,400 residents. I thought it was going to We also know that in some of our more rural-remote be a surprise, but you never know. I have a petition from areas there were still some challenges. That is one of the approximately 8,400 residents from the Comox Valley reasons we were pleased to work with the B.C. Food and the north Island who want to see the current level Processors and farmers in these rural-remote areas to of service, professional care and acute care beds main- introduce two new classes of licences that will allow for tained at St. Joseph's Hospital. further safety of food that we deliver to people who want to buy them at the farm gate. Standing Order 81.1 [1430] SCHEDULE FOR DEBATE ON BILL 17 ACUTE CARE BEDS AT ST. JOSEPH'S HOSPITAL Hon. M. de Jong: I rise to advise the House that as we draw near to the conclusion of this session — whilst the S. Fraser: The member for Comox Valley will be vast majority of the work has been completed, and there presenting petitions today with over 8,000 signatures is a schedule in place for most of the remaining work — demanding a halt to the ministry's dangerous plan to the government and the opposition have been unable to cut acute care beds and staffing at St. Joseph's Hospital reach an agreement under the provisions of the standing in Comox. The rubber hits the road today. orders with respect to Bill 17. 6122 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

Therefore, I move the following motion: Committee of the Whole House [Pursuant to Standing Order 81.1 (2), all remaining stages of Bill (No. 17) intituled Clean Energy Act shall be completed and BILL Pr401 — Horizons Unbound disposed of on or before 5:30 p.m., Thursday, June 3rd. At 5 p.m. on the date mentioned, the Speaker and the Chair of the Com- Rehabilitation and Training Society mittee of the Whole will forthwith put all necessary questions (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2010 for the disposal of all remaining stages of the said bill without amendment or debate and divisions called on sections of Bill TheH ouse in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on (No. 17) shall be taken in accordance with Practice Recommen- dation No. 1. Any divisions called on the second or third reading Bill Pr401; L. Reid in the chair. of such bill may be taken in accordance with Standing Order 16 and all other divisions will be covered by Practice Recommen- The committee met at 2:37 p.m. dation No. 1. Proceedings under this motion shall not be subject to the provisions of Standing Order 81, or the Standing or Sessional Orders relating to times and days of the sittings of the Sections 1 to 5 inclusive approved. House.] Preamble approved. Motion approved. Title approved. Orders of the Day J. Horgan: I move we report the bill complete without Hon. M. de Jong: In Committee A, I call Committee of amendment. Supply — for the information of members, the estimates of the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations — and, in this Motion approved. chamber, I'll first call Bill Pr401. [1435] The committee rose at 2:38 p.m.

Second Reading of Bills The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

BILL Pr401 — Horizons Unbound Report and Rehabilitation and Training Society Third Reading of Bills (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2010 Bill Pr401 — horizons unbound J. Horgan: I move that the bill be read a second time rehabilitation and training society now. (corporate restoration) act, 2010 Bill Pr401 standing in my name, the Horizons Unbound Rehabilitation and Training Society Bill Pr401, Horizons Unbound Rehabilitation and (Corporation Restoration) Act, 2010, was brought to my Training Society (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2010, re- attention by Dr. Philip Ney, a constituent of mine who ported complete without amendment, read a third time has operated programs for youth at risk in and around and passed. the Sooke region for many, many years. Over time the registration with the registrar of com- Hon. M. de Jong: I call Bill Pr402, Vancouver Foundation panies lapsed for this organization. Mr. Ney approached Amendment Act, 2010. me. He has attended a committee of this Legislature to put forward his case to have that corporate restoration Second Reading of Bills restored. With that, I move second reading. Bill Pr402 — Vancouver Foundation Motion approved. Amendment Act, 2010

J. Horgan: By leave, I move that the bill be referred G. Hogg: This bill, the Vancouver Foundation to a Committee of the Whole House to be considered Amendment Act, 2010, modernizes the language and forthwith. provides greater flexibility to the VancouverF oundation, similar to an act previously passed by this House with Leave granted. respect to the Victoria Foundation. The bill modernizes the wording; adds greater flexibility Bill Pr401, Horizons Unbound Rehabilitation and to the Vancouver Foundation; allows donations that are Training Society (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2010, read given for specific purposes, which may be outside of the a second time and ordered to proceed to a Committee of province of British Columbia, to be so placed. It gives the Whole House for consideration forthwith. greater flexibility to the board to ensure that nominees Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6123

have the appropriate skills, knowledge and experience Committee of the Whole House to sit on the board. It allows greater flexibility in invest- ments as well as the placement and granting of funds. BIll 20 — MISCELLANEOUS STATUTES I move the bill now be read a second time. AMENDMENT ACT (No. 3), 2010 (continued) Motion approved. TheH ouse in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on G. Hogg: By leave, I move the bill be referred to a Bill 20; L. Reid in the chair. Committee of the Whole House to be considered forth- with. The committee met at 2:45 p.m.

Leave granted. Hon. S. Bond: I seek leave to make an introduction.

Bill Pr402, Vancouver Foundation Amendment Act, Leave granted. 2010, read a second time and ordered to proceed to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration forth- Introductions by Members with. Hon. S. Bond: I have the pleasure this afternoon of Committee of the Whole House introducing a group of 24 grades 10 and 11 students, and they have come all the way from Prince George to- day, actually, to visit here. We're absolutely delighted to Bill Pr402 — VAncouver foundation see them in the gallery today. They are from Westside amendment act, 2010 Academy in Prince George. They are accompanied by a number of adults, including Rob Tower. TheH ouse in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on This group is the first of two. I hope to be able to Bill Pr402; L. Reid in the chair. introduce the second group later in the afternoon, but they are touring the Legislature. They go to a wonderful The committee met at 2:40 p.m. school in Prince George. They do a great job of provid- ing a Christian education in Prince George, and I want to Sections 1 to 19 inclusive approved. ask my colleagues in the House to make these students and the staff and parents that are accompanying them Preamble approved. very welcome here in the precinct today.

Title approved. Debate Continued

G. Hogg: I move the committee rise and report the On section 217. bill complete without amendment. G. Coons: For people that are joining us, here is a Motion approved. section dealing with amendments to the Coastal Ferry Act. I have a few questions about this section. It deals The committee rose at 2:41 p.m. with adding that information is going to be sent to the authority and to the Minister of Transportation and The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Infrastructure. It talks about reservation fees and some methodology and public comment. I'm just wondering, Report and in section 217(a), why the minister included this infor- Third Reading of Bills mation being given to her.

Bill Pr402 — vancouver foundation Hon. S. Bond: In fact, the reason we included it is amendment act, 2010 that it is helpful to us. There is a potential for it to impact the ferry services contract. So it's important information, Bill Pr402, Vancouver Foundation Amendment Act, and we ask that it help inform our processes. 2010, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed. G. Coons: I find this a fairly significant addition to the Coastal Ferry Act, where information is actually coming to Hon. M. de Jong: Committee stage debate on Bill the minister or to the minister's staff. What type of infor- 20. mation is going to be coming to the minister and the staff? 6124 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

Hon. S. Bond: I think it is important to clarify that Hon. S. Bond: I think we need to be clear that the we're not asking for anything that is exceptional. In fact, Ferry Services model is not changing dramatically as a the information will also be published on the website. So result of the comptroller general's recommendations. we're asking for it to be given directly to us. The informa- Really what is changing is that previous to this, we were tion would include the tariffs for the core ferry services. able to access the information at the same time as the It would also include expenses that the ferry operator general public. All we're actually creating in this bill is has incurred — very basic information but certainly not the opportunity for us to receive the information per- provided exclusively to the ministry. In fact, it will also haps a day or two before it's posted on a public website. be published on the website. Really, it's a change in timing more than a change in content. G. Coons: And with this information, will the minis- Additionally, we're not intending to change the way ter be getting information about fuel surcharges or that we report on B.C. Ferries. We actually feel that the information regarding the finances of the ferry oper- method we have in place now is appropriate. ator? G. Coons: When I look in section 217, I'd like to go Hon. S. Bond: Whatever the ferries commissioner to subsection (c) where it talks about "the portion of the requests in terms of information, the scope that he or expenses applicable to the terminals serving the applic- she requests would be the same information that we able designated ferry route that the ferry operator has would receive. reasonably allocated to the designated ferry route, and the methodology by which those amounts have been al- G. Coons: Again, since this is one of the first times located among its routes." I'm just wondering what the that information is directly going to the minister…. minister means by "the methodology." Over the last seven years there's sort of been a "hands- off" or "keep your distance" from the workings and Hon. S. Bond: In fact, this is a direct response to a recommendation by the comptroller general. It's simply functionings of the ferry corporation or ferry operator. asking for clarity — that the ferries commissioner have an I'm just wondering. In the past, what information did explanation as to the methodology that's used in determin- the minister receive from the ferry operator? ing costs. In fact, it's a very straightforward requirement, [1450] and it is in response to the comptroller general. [1455] Hon. S. Bond: I do want, from the beginning, to make it very clear that the operating model for B.C. Ferries is G. Coons: Yes, and the minister talked about the not changing. In fact, the comptroller general made it kudos that the comptroller general gave to B.C. Ferry very clear that operationally, B.C. Ferries is incredibly Services, as it's currently operating, but obviously after successful. Previous to this, we would have received our seven years…. You know, it was a scathing report, look- information the same way the public would have, and ing at the conflict of interest between the boards, the that would have been by looking on the website. We're outrageous executive compensations and director com- simply adding another step which would have that in- pensations and down the list — concerns with freedom formation shared directly with the ministry as well as of information and alternate service providers, the res- being posted on the website. ervations and dealing with public complaints. Also dealing with this methodology — I'm under the G. Coons: So this new information that the minister assumption, and perhaps the minister could correct is finally getting, she is saying, has always been available me…. She says this relates to one of the comptroller's on the website, but now you're just going to get it handed concerns, where the comptroller says: "It is essential that to you. key information received from B.C. Ferries be reliable I think, if I remember correctly, the Auditor General because it is the basis for fares, and in turn, fares directly in 2006 had concerns about the amounts of information affect B.C. Ferries bottom line and the level of service out there and no consolidation of it. One of the recom- fees. Therefore, the commission should apply an appro- mendations from the Auditor General was for the priate level of verification." minister to do a comprehensive summary report in the One of the recommendations, as the minister talked service plan on B.C. Ferries. about…. And this is a recommendation from the comp- I'm just wondering if the minister will incorporate troller — applying increased verification procedures this new information that is now being legislated to to the information provided the commissioner by B.C. come to the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Ferries to ensure its validity. and if she will use that information to do a comprehen- When the minister gets hold of the information that's sive summary report in the service plan. given to the commissioner, will the minister ensure that Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6125

it's valid information and reliable, so that when fares start as putting together the "public comment" and "request to go up or fuel surcharges are put on to ferry-depend- for public comment" and methodology and everything ent communities, this government can stand up and say that's involved in this section? What was the consulta- that they have been verified and they are reliable? tion process?

Hon. S. Bond: The point of asking for the methodology Hon. S. Bond: Well, in fact the member opposite is so that the independent ferries commissioner can do would well know that the reason we're in the Legislature exactly what the member opposite is asking about. He today is because I actually requested that the comptroller or she would have the opportunity to test, by looking at general review B.C. Ferries. She did, I think, an excellent the methodology, the accuracy of the information. That job of actually consulting, considering all of the issues. is absolutely essential that an independent ferries com- She provided government with a report and a series of missioner do that job. recommendations. The vast majority of those recom- mendations have been responded to positively and are G. Coons: In this legislation, is there a format or template incorporated in Bill 20. for the ferries commissioner to use to ensure that the methodology is reliable and verifies the information G. Coons: Did the minister personally meet and consult that it is given? with the ferry advisory committee chairs?

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, the whole point of having an in- Hon. S. Bond: Obviously, throughout the course of dependent ferries commissioner, one that has professional the work that I do, I've met with a number of individuals, stature, is that it would be his or her responsibility to actually but related to the recommendations and the legislation test the methodology. So it's not about prescribing a that's here today, the comptroller general actually did methodology; it's about a professional, independent ferries a significant degree of consultation and provided her commissioner testing the methodology. report to government. Our job was to review it, which we did, and it's her recommendations that we're acting G. Coons: In section (d) just following that, it talks upon in this bill. about: "Each ferry operator must provide to the com- missioner, with the information submitted under Section 217 approved. subsection (1), (a) a plan as to how the ferry operator intends to provide services more efficiently…." Has a On section 218. plan ever been submitted to the commissioner previous to this legislation before us? G. Coons: Just a couple of questions about the reser- [1500] vation fees. Why did the minister include the reservation fees in the price cap? Hon. S. Bond: Previous to this the commissioner would have set efficiency targets and the ferry services Hon. S. Bond: In fact, what's critical when the ferries would have had to report back about how they were able commissioner is trying to determine the price cap…. to actually meet or attempt to meet those targets. What We believed that it was important that every source of this legislation does is actually require that a plan be put revenue be considered before the cap is set. We thought in place and presented to the commissioner. it was essential that this be included as well. [1505] G. Coons: I want to go down to (f) where we're talk- ing about reviewing that "the information and plans G. Coons: If reservations are going to be included as provided to the commissioner under this section, (a.1) part of the price cap, I'm just wondering if the minis- make public a request for public comment in relation to ter knows what the revenue is from reservations for B.C. the following," and there's a list there. I'm just wondering: Ferries. how is this section different than what's in the current Coastal Ferry Act? Hon. S. Bond: I don't have that information.

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, previously the ferries commis- G. Coons: Does the minister have any idea of what sioner would have responded to input. He or she will the impact will be on setting fare caps when reservations actually now be required to solicit input. are included?

G. Coons: When the minister put together this part Hon. S. Bond: I can't, and I am not going to, speculate of Bill 20 — which is close to 250 sections — as far as about what impact it might have. I think the comptrol- the ferry section, who did the minister consult as far ler general also believed that it was important that all 6126 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

sources of revenue be considered before the price cap is was the minister contemplating? Why was this amend- set. I think the bill reflects that today. ment put forward?

G. Coons: I know the minister understands that the Hon. S. Bond: I'm going to ask the member opposite commissioner, for four or five years, has expressed real to clarify that because I think he referenced reservation concern with the reservations being part of ancillary fees, and I think this is about drop trailer. I'm not quite services, not being regulated. Basically, somewhere it certain what the question was. was referred to as a cash cow. And the Auditor General had concerns. I guess there was no analysis done, but I G. Coons: Yes. Going back to the definition of "com- think it's a good move to have this section in. petitive service," a key component of that is a drop-trailer service. I'm just wondering why this was brought to the Section 218 approved. minister's attention and whether or not the minister or their staff consulted with anybody on this particular issue On section 219. and the concerns with unfair competitive advantage.

Hon. S. Bond: I move the amendment to section 219 Hon. S. Bond: It was a recommendation from the standing in my name in the orders of the day. comptroller general that, in fact, we consider addressing [SECTION 219, as it enacts section 45.1 of the Coastal Ferry what might be perceived and, indeed, might be a real Act, S.B.C. 2003, c. 14, by deleting the text shown as struck out and adding the text shown as underlined: competitive advantage for B.C. Ferry Services. Once Regulation of unfair competitive advantage again, we agreed with the comptroller general that this 45.1 (1) If a ferry operator is providing a competitive service, the was a prudent step to take in Bill 20. commissioner must determine whether the ferry operator is pricing the service below the direct costs and an appropriate G. Coons: In the section that we're looking at, it talks proportion of the indirect costs associated with providing that ferry transportation service, or has an unfair competi- about an "appropriate proportion of the indirect costs tive advantage in providing that ferry transportation service, associated with providing that ferry…service." Now, what including, without limitation, an advantage as a result ofre- would be an appropriate proportion? sulting from the ferry operator having been provided with (a) use of, access to or ownership of vessels or terminals that are or had been owned by the government Hon. S. Bond: That's obviously one of the questions or a government body within the meaning of the that the ferries commissioner will have to determine. Financial Administration Act, That would be within the professional judgment of the (b) any tax exemption, or ferries commissioner. (c) any subsidy. (2) If the commissioner makes the determination referred [1510] to in subsection (1), the commissioner must regulate the ferry transportation service in one of the following G. Coons: I'm looking at section 219, and they start ways: talking about unfair competitive advantage as far as use (a) make an order under section 69 (1) and, after an alternative service provider satisfactory to the com- of or ownership of vessels and terminals, any tax exemp- missioner has been located through a competitive tions and any subsidy. What are the tax exemptions process established in a plan approved under sec- currently available to the current ferry operator? tion 69 (4) (a) or created under section 69 (4) (b) (i), order the ferry operator to arrange with that alterna- tive service provider, under contract, franchise Hon. S. Bond: In fact, there could be implications in agreement or otherwise, for the alternative service terms of property tax, in terms of income tax. There are provider to provide the ferry transportation service; a number of areas that might be considered. Again, the (b) calculate the amount that the commissioner con- ferries commissioner, in the determination, would have siders would be charged as a tariff for that ferry transportation service to recover the direct costs a look at those very elements. and an appropriate proportion of the indirect costs attributable to providing the service were none of G. Coons: As far as tax implications, what do B.C. the factors referred to in subsection (1) (a), (b) or Ferries currently get for tax exemptions as far as, say, not (c) of this section present, and order the ferry oper- ator to charge at least that tariff when providing that property but other tax exemptions? ferry transportation service.] Hon. S. Bond: In fact, it's fairly complex, and I don't Amendment approved. have an exhaustive list. What's important is that the ferries commissioner would consider this if it actually On section 219 as amended. has an impact and creates an unfair advantage. So it's going to be important for the ferries commis- G. Coons: I do have a few questions here. When we sioner to do that work, and as I said earlier, some of the look at the amendment the minister has put forward, what areas that might be contemplated are property tax. Again, Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6127

that's very complex. There are parts of it that the ferries tioned, like drop-trailer…. There are other services that commissioner may consider applicable and others that B.C. Ferries has gotten into. The new tourism centre, a he or she may not. I don't have an exhaustive list. But 2,700-square-foot tourism centre, is high-rent space ad- again, it will be under the auspices of the ferries commis- jacent to the new convention centre. A few of the ferry sioner to consider that matter. advisory committee chairs have a problem with this, and the Gabriola Island trustees have a concern that they're G. Coons: Well, it's interesting that we have legislation a monopoly. here to regulate unfair competitive advantage, and people I'm wondering if the minister thinks that the subsidies that have contacted members on this side wanted to get on going to B.C. Ferries in an unfair-competitive-advantage record some of the answers besides: "It's fairly complex." scenario, where they get tax exemptions and they get close When we start looking at some of the information that to $200 million in subsidies from taxpayers — that the we're putting forward, it seems the minister is lacking tourism centre that they're running could possibly run in quite a bit. She doesn't have the B.C. Ferry articles. She conflict with, say, Tourism B.C. or Tourism Vancouver. doesn't have information about some of the financial implications. Again, some questioning about tax exemp- Hon. S. Bond: I actually am not going to speculate about tions is fairly unclear. that particular piece of the B.C. Ferries organization. This is I'm just wondering: when we look at competitive a broad principle that would allow the ferries commis- services, are there any other competitive services that sioner to look at areas where there may be concern that the minister foresees, other than drop trailer, that B.C. there was a competitive advantage, but the primary focus Ferries has gotten into or possibly could get into? of the legislation is transportation services. It is a principle that says — and we agree with the comptroller general — Hon. S. Bond: Well, first of all, to the member oppos- that B.C. Ferries should operate on a level playing field, ite's first comments, we should be perfectly clear. This and that's really what this principle embraces. legislation is before the House today because the comp- troller general of British Columbia looked at B.C. Ferry G. Coons: I'm just wondering if the minister has concerns, Services and said that there needed to be or could well be because under tourism and business opportunities, in some change considered. 2007, B.C. Ferries established Pacific Marine Ventures But I would remind the member opposite that, in fact, Inc., PMV, "as a wholly owned subsidiary to pursue she said, generally speaking, B.C. Ferry Services is well strategic business opportunities related to commercial run. So this legislation is about principles. That's why traffic, tourism and terminal management." I can see we are not going to articulate a list here today. It is about that the commercial traffic is the drop-trailer component the principle of ensuring that there is not a competitive of the concern that the comptroller general had. advantage for B.C. Ferries. Due to the unfair, I would say, competitive advantage That will be part of the job of the B.C. ferries commis- as PMV, Pacific Marine Ventures, goes into tourism, sioner — to actually look at what might be considered terminal management or commercial traffic, I'm won- a competitive advantage. We think that is an important dering if the minister would agree that the PMV ventures principle, and we agree with the comptroller general that would be an unfair competitive advantage, as B.C. Ferries the ferries commissioner should undertake that work. is getting the tax breaks and subsidies, and whether or not this is something that the minister should encourage H. Bains: I seek leave to make an introduction. the commissioner to investigate. [1520] Leave granted. [1515] Hon. S. Bond: I'm not in a position to make that de- termination because I'm not the ferries commissioner. Introductions by Members The ferries commissioner is an independent professional who will be given direction only through legislation. I H. Bains: In the vicinity we have a school from my don't intend to direct the ferries commissioner. constituency, Ecole Gabrielle-Roy. There are 45 students of What I do intend to do through Bill 20 is provide the grade 10 here with their parents and teacher Samantha ferries commissioner with a principle that requires him Marshall. Please help me welcome them to this great or her to actually ensure that B.C. Ferries is not operating place of democracy. with an unfair competitive advantage. That will be up to the ferries commissioner to take the legislation and Debate Continued move forward using that principle.

G. Coons: When I look at some of the competitive G. Coons: I want to get into the drop-trailer situation services that the minister specifically looked at or men- and major concerns, as the minister probably heard 6128 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

through the comptroller general. When we look at the Hon. S. Bond: First of all, I want to just also respond commissioner ensuring there's fairness…. Washington to the member for Delta South. I really do appreciate Marine Group, Seaspan Coastal Intermodal and Van and wanted to convey to her how much I appreciate Isle Barge Services Ltd. had concerns and alleged unfair occasionally a member standing up and recognizing competition and pricing due to the subsidies and tax that work has been done by staff and by the comptroller exemptions. general which I think is in the best interests of British I'm just wondering. The minister has, through this Columbia. I think occasionally those good things happen legislation I would say, downloaded the obligation onto in this place, and I think it should not go without notice. the commissioner to ensure there's no unfair competition, I appreciate that. to ensure at least the competitive rate is charged. I'm say- [1525] ing: what evidence will there be to ensure there will be a The member brought us a series of concerns from her level playing field with those in the drop-trailer business constituents, and we listened very carefully, and I think who are trying to compete with B.C. Ferries? the comptroller general did as well. So I want to say that I appreciate the recognition for staff and for the comp- Hon. S. Bond: Well, I think that the member opposite troller general. should take a great deal of confidence in the fact that To the member opposite, I would like to suggest that when the comptroller general made the recommendation we are hardly sloughing off this issue. We are bringing that we contemplate the issue of a fair, competitive cir- the most serious direction that one can provide, and that cumstance in British Columbia, we responded to that is through the law in British Columbia. This legislation with this legislation. will require the ferries commissioner to look at anything I have every confidence that an independent, profes- that might be perceived or, in fact, in reality have the sional ferries commissioner will take very seriously the ability to give B.C. Ferry Services an unfair advantage. legislation that will be provided to him or her. In fact, we In fact, the amendment that we've already passed have every confidence that that professional, independent made sure that the scope was broad enough to cover individual will ensure that we have a competitive en- whatever items might need to be considered in this. So vironment for those services in the province. I have every confidence that whoever is the ferries com- missioner of the day will take the most serious guidance, V. Huntington: The minister will recall that during which is the law. the fall estimates we had a rather extensive discussion on the issue of the drop-trailer competitive advantage Section 219 as amended approved. that B.C. Ferries, in my opinion, had. At that time the minister was unable to provide for me the exact terms of Sections 220 to 223 inclusive approved. reference that she had provided to the comptroller general. But I simply want to thank the minister and her staff for On section 224. the thorough response that they have provided. I think the entire business community, with responding G. Coons: I want to look at section 224 — a few ques- to what was in many of our minds a serious issue…. I tions about alternate service providers. I do want to look think the speed and the thoroughness with which the at the changes and acknowledge that since day one we've comptroller general provided a report to the ministry and said this is not workable — to try to find alternative your department should be congratulated. I wanted to service providers, as far as section 69. just put that on record. The minister, in her consultation and listening to the comptroller general, and I'm sure talking with B.C. G. Coons: I'm still trying to grasp and trying to under- Ferries…. I'm wondering what would be the cost per stand how the commissioner will determine what is fair year of B.C. Ferries, the current operator, trying to put and what is unfair with no direction from the minister. in effect section 69. When you look at the objectives of the commissioner, number one still is to look after the financial sustainability Hon. S. Bond: This section is really about looking at of the corporation. current practice. The comptroller general, at least, outlined I'm just wondering: will such things as infrastructure, that this particular practice has not been overly successful, real estate, staff and vessel costs come into account? This and so the comptroller general actually recommended is because those concerned — as I said, Seaspan and Van that we take away the mandatory requirement to look Isle Barge Services — are looking to this legislation and for alternate or additional service providers. some sort of commitment from the minister that there I can only imagine that the ferries commissioner would will be fairness or a definition or a determination from look at requiring this if it were to be a cost advantage. the minister on how it's going to be determined to be fair I'm told, at least — and would find that very practical — or unfair versus sloughing it off to the commissioner. that this section actually might reduce costs. We don't Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6129

anticipate a large cost when we're removing a manda- forward the amendment. tory requirement — retaining it as an option. I can't [In Part 12 – Transportation and Infrastructure Amendments, imagine that we would see additional costs as a result adding the following section: SECTION 245.1, Section 75 of the Coastal Ferry Act, SBC of this section. 2003, c. 14, is deleted.]

Sections 224 and 225 approved. On the amendment.

On section 226. G. Coons: Just for the minister and staff and people following along, in 2003 when the Coastal Ferry Act G. Coons: Section 226 is something…. The minister came into effect, section 75, under the Ombudsperson says it's not too often that a member stands up and says Act…. It says that the Ombudsperson Act does not that this is a good amendment and that the government apply to the authority or to B.C. Ferry Corporation has listened. after its conversion. The amendment would make the Since day one, back in April 2003, there have been Ombudsperson Act apply. concerns about the exemption of B.C. Ferries from Travellers, communities, businesses and taxpayers freedom of information. are all affected by the decisions of the corporation, but [1530] at this point in time there's no requirement to consider The Privacy Commissioner had major concerns and their impacts. There is a public input component in this sent a letter to the minister of the day, saying that they legislation, but there are concerns that people — whether should not be exempt and that he had problems with they are in the tourism sector, trucking, construction, them. Again, seven years of a lot of people trying to commuters, seniors — need to be treated fairly in the get information, whether it's people in the Legislature, provision of all public services. MLAs, ferry users or the public. The Ombudsperson, as people know, is the independ- I just have one question, and kudos for putting this in ent voice for fairness so that every person in British there. We've called for it. We've put forth our Fair Ferries Columbia is treated fairly in the provision of pub- bill on this side of the House, which included freedom lic services. There's quite a lot of information that the of information. I'm just wondering: approximately, what Ombudsman does, and it promotes and fosters fairness would be the date of commencement of section 226 after in public administration. this bill is passed? [1535] I believe that as we push forward to include B.C. Hon. S. Bond: I do want to provide a bit of context for Ferries and the authority under freedom of information, the freedom-of-information issue, because I know the it also should be included under the Ombudsman Act. member has been very public with his concerns about this. In fact, you cannot…. Certainly, I think the comp- Amendment negatived on division. troller general also made the point. It is possible now for us to contemplate freedom of Section 245 approved. information for B.C. Ferries because there is no longer, once this becomes law, a requirement to look for al- On section 246. ternative service provision. There was, and would have continued to be, an issue of commerciality. Now that G. Coons: Just a few questions about section 246. It that no longer exists, we are able to move B.C. Ferries talks about baseline remuneration of the directors of B.C. under the freedom-of-information and protection-of- Ferries. Just so I understand it and to make this clear, privacy process. what concerns did the minister have with remuneration To that point, we have been clear that this will follow of directors at B.C. Ferries? the normal course of procedure in terms of moving B.C. Ferries, as other entities, under freedom of information. Hon. S. Bond: Certainly before we draw to the end of There are a number of processes that have to be put in our sections, I want to be sure to put on the record my place, but I can assure the member opposite that we will thanks to an incredible staff team that we have working do it as expeditiously as possible. not only on this but on dozens of other initiatives at the same time. Sections 226 to 244 inclusive approved. Today I have been supported incredibly well by Peter Milburn, Frank Blasetti and Nisha Bathe, and I appreci- On section 245. ate the incredibly good job they do on behalf of British Columbians. They represent a team of hundreds of G. Coons: There is an amendment that I've had on people in the Transportation Ministry, and it is an excep- the order paper dealing with 245, so I would like to put tional group of individuals. I just wanted to make sure 6130 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

that they were given the appropriate thank-you for the I think, to sum it up, the assumption is and the expect- work they do. ation would be that the authority finds the best people I think it's clear to the member opposite that, in fact, for the job, certainly the most qualified. we shared the belief and the recommendation that the comptroller general made. Considering the nature of G. Coons: Thank you, Minister. As I understand it, this organization — and despite the extremely good the authority is chosen by geographic regions, but B.C. work that the comptroller general agreed that they did Ferry Services, for the 13 members…. Even though in very well, in her report as well — because of the nature the B.C. Ferry Services articles there could be 20 that of the work that is done, it was important to look at we don't have access to, and the minister hasn't seen, or compensation and remuneration that was comparable they don't have a copy of B.C. Ferry Services articles. to public sector organizations. So this legislation will There is still no geographic representation on the board require that as we move forward, that principle will be of B.C. Ferry Services. Just clarify that, please. applied to B.C. Ferries. Hon. S. Bond: As I said in my earlier answer, in fact, G. Coons: Yes, we had that debate over the last year there are no geographic expectations when the authority or so about the directors and their retainer fees. I think appoints the directors. There is absolutely a requirement this is a good move to compare them to public sector that they be skill-based, that it be a skilled-based ap- organizations. pointment, so that we're finding the best individuals Now, in section 246(4)…. This is very interesting, and possible to actually take on this role. That, of course, is I'm scratching my head trying to figure this one out. It written in section 21.1, and those are the guidelines that says: "At the BCFS annual general meeting on September would be utilized. 30, 2010, the Authority must replace the existing directors I'd also like to offer the member opposite a copy of by electing or appointing directors in accordance with the articles of the British Columbia Ferry Corporation. I section 21.1 of the Coastal Ferry Act." I'm assuming that's know that he has expressed concern about not being able replacing the existing directors of B.C. Ferry Services. to get them for five years. In fact, it's a matter of going to the corporate registry and asking for them. You pay Hon. S. Bond: It is the transition date where we will a very nominal fee. I'd be happy to share a copy of the actually be separating the two entities, as recommended articles with the member opposite. by the comptroller general and reflected in the changes [1545] in this bill. So that is the transition date where that separation will take place. G. Coons: One last question. When we started in sec- tion 206 and we looked at qualified B.C. Ferry Services G. Coons: Currently there are 13 members on the B.C. candidate, we talked about whether or not there would be Ferries board of directors. So in the next four months union representation. It is mandated to have a union rep- there needs to be a process for gathering up the 13 directors resentation on the authority, so I'm wondering: will there of the board within four months. What is that process? be union representation on the B.C. Ferry Services board? [1540] Hon. S. Bond: As I mentioned to the member opposite, Hon. S. Bond: In fact, it will be a responsibility of the there are clearly expectations that there be qualified can- authority to identify and appoint those members, and it didates based on skill and experience. The authority is will need to be done within the act, which looks at skills. more than welcome to consider representation from any There are also restrictions as well. So it will be the respon- sector, and that's exactly what we would expect them to do. sibility of the authority within the act that we are debating. There will not be a change in the provisions, as I indi- cated, in terms of appointments by geography and by G. Coons: As far as within the act, is there geographic sector. In fact, the authority will make the ultimate de- representation? Would there be geographic representation termination about the appointment of the directors based on the B.C. Ferries board of directors? on skill and their ability to function in the oversight role.

Hon. S. Bond: The authority will retain its geographic G. Coons: Again, I'm going to have to check what was differentiation, so there will continue to be geographic said, but I thought the minister said yesterday that the representation on the authority. The authority will appoint representation would remain the same for B.C. Ferry the directors according to section 21.1, which means Services when I had a concern about the qualified B.C. that they must select individuals in a way to ensure that Ferry Services candidate. It sounds like there is a possi- they are qualified, who hold all of the skills and experience bility that the B.C. Ferry Services board of directors will needed to oversee B.C. Ferries in an efficient and cost- not have union representation on it like it has had for effective manner. the last seven years. Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6131

Hon. S. Bond: I am certainly hoping that I didn't need minister was able to find an error with his staff, and I'm to clarify my comments from yesterday. I thought the pleased that he was able to bring it back to this House member opposite asked about the composition of the au- and not complicate the passage of Bill 20 by having to thority. The authority will retain the positions that it has explain it one more time. today. The designation of those seats will not change. The reason that, in fact, there are members of…. Amendment approved. The same composition today actually exists on both the board and the authority. That was the problem that Section 52 as amended approved. the comptroller general identified. So when the two en- tities are separated in transition this September, the Title approved. authority will retain those designated positions that they have today. Hon. M. de Jong: Madam Chair, I move the commit- The change will be that the authority will now ap- tee rise and report the bill complete with amendments. point another group of individuals or a group of individuals that will serve on the board. There are not Motion approved. the same stipulations around the board because we're separating the two entities as the comptroller general The committee rose at 3:50 p.m. recommended we do. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Sections 246 and 247 approved. Reporting of Bills On section 248. Bill 20 — Miscellaneous Statutes Hon. M. de Jong: I call the amendment standing in Amendment Act (No. 3), 2010 my name on the order paper to section 248, item 15, al- tering the commencement provision. Bill 20, Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. [SECTION 248, by deleting item 15 of the table and substi- 3), 2010, reported complete with amendments. tuting the following as indicated: Column 1 Column 2 Item Mr. Speaker: When shall the bill be considered as Provisions of Act Commencement read? 15 Sections 66 to 68 By regulation of the Lieutenant Governor in Council] Hon. M. de Jong: With leave, now, Mr. Speaker.

Amendment approved. Leave granted.

Section 248 as amended approved. Third Reading of Bills

Hon. B. Lekstrom: By agreement, I wish to revisit Bill 20 — Miscellaneous Statutes section 52 of the act. Thank you. Amendment Act (No. 3), 2010

On section 52. Bill 20, Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 3), 2010, read a third time and passed. Hon. B. Lekstrom: I would move an amendment, which is in the hands of the Clerk, that is changing a Hon. M. de Jong: That brings us to second reading on word in 52. [See appendix.] Bill 17, Clean Energy Act.

On the amendment. Second Reading of Bills

Hon. B. Lekstrom: That change is under the formula Bill 17 — Clean Energy Act and under "EER," which equals "energy efficiency ratio." (continued) We are changing that to "energy effectiveness ratio." I would so move. B. Routley: It is a privilege to get up in this House and speak about such an important issue — an issue that's J. Horgan: It is with consent. The minister and I dis- going to make major changes to British Columbia. cussed the elaborate and complicated formula, which we canvassed thoroughly yesterday at committee stage. The [L. Reid in the chair.] 6132 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

I want to first comment that I think this act is really So I have to ask, under Bill 17, when you think about misnamed. What it should be called is what it really is this: is that really what we're going to end up with under all about, and what it's really all about is…. Here's a sug- the so-called Clean Energy Act — that at the end of the gestion for you, hon. Speaker: "Clean out our public day it's just a whole bunch of backroom deals that are rights act." How about that? Or the "Energy and profits done? Our rivers — our spectacular rivers — should be for our friends and insiders" act. That's a more appropri- there for our children and our children's children. They ate name. Or the "Public assets dirty deal" act — there's should be there for future generations. another one. I want to talk about all of these rivers. I really don't know how this government comes to the conclusions Deputy Speaker: Member. they do on rivers. What do they do? Do they sit in the cabinet office with a whole bunch of maps scrolled out, B. Routley: Yes, hon. Speaker. or do they wait for the satellite to send down a bunch of pictures, and then they sit around with a bunch of Deputy Speaker: I will bring you back to considera- people dressed up in suits and talk about: "Well, you tion. The title of the bill: Clean Energy Act, Bill 17. know, here are some rivers available"? Carving up British Columbia…. That's what this Bill B. Routley: Exactly, hon. Speaker, the Clean Energy 17 is going to do — carve up British Columbia. And it's Act. You know, when I think about this act, I think that going to take away our public oversight. By doing away an appropriate name might be "A river runs through, with the B.C. Utilities Commission, our public oversight but it's not for you" act. This act clearly has nothing to is gone. do with clean energy. It's all about fouling up the B.C. You know, I come from the Cowichan Valley, a region Utilities Commission oversight and empowering a that's got a beautiful heritage river, and there are all kinds handful of Liberals, if you can imagine this. of tributaries that come into that river. In Cowichan Just imagine a bunch of cabinet ministers — and I Lake, which feeds it, there are all kinds of tributaries. I understand there are 25 of them; they're quite a bloated just want to mention that as part of this Bill 17, people group — sitting around making these backroom deals are concerned: "What's it going to mean? Could one that we have no knowledge about until some announce- of our rivers one day…? Do we suddenly wake up one ment comes out the other day — no transparency, no morning…? Does somebody throw a dart at a map on knowledge about exactly what's going on. And then we the wall and one of our rivers comes up?" hear today that we can't even talk about this bill…. Well, that's unacceptable. I know that people…. I think about up in Lake Cowichan, the Deputy Speaker: The member will come to order. Salmonid Enhancement Society. This is the kind of concern that people have for rivers, and what Bill 17 is B. Routley: Yes, hon. Speaker. dealing with is rivers. There are all kinds of people com- mitted to ensuring our rivers are looked after. Deputy Speaker: It would not be appropriate to con- This group that I'm talking about — Cowichan Lake tinue in that vein. Salmonid Enhancement Society in Lake Cowichan…. I was talking with Art Watson the other day, and he was B. Routley: At the end of the day, what we want is telling me, if you can imagine this…. Here it is a herit- for British Columbians to have public oversight, and age river, and hundreds, if not thousands, of people have this bill is taking away the rights of the public of British come to the Cowichan Valley to visit that heritage river Columbia to know what's going on, and that is a very and to fish on its banks and in its tributaries and even serious issue indeed. in the lake. You have to look at our rivers and streams, and who they should benefit, at the end of the day. Well, they [C. Trevena in the chair.] should benefit all British Columbians, I would submit, but that's not what's going to happen here. What's going This Salmonid Enhancement Society in Lake to happen here is that we're going to have major profits for Cowichan is telling me that they're scrambling for cash. shareholders — and for friends and insiders, I might add. They've got, like, $3,500 donated to them, and the fund- Under Bill 17…. Our rivers don't belong in private ing has been cut off. They need only $12,000 to run the hands. Our rivers are spectacular places. Any of us can, I'm program. sure, envision a river. Imagine standing by a place that you Here under Bill 17…. I heard the member for Juan think is outstanding, and any one of British Columbia's de Fuca the other day talking about a billion dollars powerful and beautiful rivers can bring up emotions in for smart meters. We're going to have a billion dollars how we feel about this place, about British Columbia. spent so that we can have some gadget on the wall and [1555] we can tell what's happening with our power. We can Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6133

tell that somebody has turned the lights on or the lights spent $203 million. They sent it to foreign-based IPPs off. But we can't come up with funding for little groups — $203 million — and $163 million was given to out- like that that are out there trying to rescue our fish in of-province Canadian IPPs. Just $70 million was spent our streams. here by IPPs, independent power producers, owned and We've got a government bent on taking control of rivers operated here in British Columbia. and streams all over the province, and I know the people Without the B.C. Utilities Commission oversight of that I've talked to don't understand how this happens. major projects and independent power producers, the People have said: "We haven't seen an ad in the paper in risk for British Columbians is just too great. The profits Duncan or Lake Cowichan saying, you know, 'Get your will be taken out of the province. rivers.'" Let's contrast that a bit with some of the history. When What is this? Like at the PNE — win a car, win a house? you look at Bill 17, the Clean Energy Act, we had the Now you can come down to the cabinet and win a river spectacle of the Premier going up and having his picture apparently. That's the gimmick that we got going on here, taken up there at the Bennett dam. I had the opportun- and this bill is going to allow that to happen. A bunch of ity to tour the Bennett dam within the last year and had people sitting around in a room, and who knows how a look around. It is quite an amazing spectacle, as well, they come up with these harebrained schemes on how as you think of the history that went on there. they get their rivers? I was recently reading an article. You know, the [1600] Internet is a wonderful thing. You can go on there and But I have to be concerned. I think it's an absolute ask it questions, and it tells you. There was an article by disgrace that our future power profits — in some cases, Rafe Mair about W.A.C. Bennett and, if he were alive to- even the environment — are being forfeited by a gov- day, what he would be thinking. He comments that he ernment that has no mandate from the people of B.C. to thinks W.A.C. Bennett would want to support the NDP do what they're doing, by eliminating the B.C. Utilities because…. And he makes some valid points. He says Commission. They didn't run on that, hon. Speaker. that back in the 1960s one would have had to say either They didn't say: "By the way, we're going to get rid of any that W.A.C. Bennett was a "brash free enterpriser" or public oversight so that we can just have our way with that he was a "rampaging socialist," depending on one's rivers." It's just an absolute disgrace. viewpoint. I look now at what's going on. And who knows what's [1605] going on behind closed doors? I get asked by constitu- But he understood that private business should not be ents who say: "Well, how do all these things work? How running B.C. Ferries. The issue here is about privatization do they come up with the number — a 60-year or 30-year versus the public having control. Who's going to have contract? Apparently, they've got some kind of clauses control of the future destiny of this beautiful province? in there to take into account inflation. My, my, that's Is it going to be put in private hands for the profits of a a pretty sweet deal. Who picks the bargaining strategy handful of individuals and people to spend money outside that goes along with these rivers? You really have to be of the province? Or is the money going to be here and concerned about it. generated for the people of British Columbia? You look at these independent power producers, and That was old W.A.C. Bennett's vision, I would sug- we know that what's happening here with this bill is go- gest. He understood that private business should not be ing to have far-reaching consequences for all British running things like the B.C. Ferries or B.C. Hydro. He Columbians for generations to come, just to provide understood it, and certainly when you look at the his- some megaprofits to private power companies and their tory, it wasn't just B.C. Hydro, the B.C. Ferries. In fact, I shareholders. They're going to be making profits that I was just a kid riding on the Black Ball ferry. I remember believe belong to our province. It's absolutely scandalous it well because I got lost, and they had to call over the that we're going to have all kinds of backroom dealings speaker system. Fortunately, my mom and dad came and going on. A lot of it is with big political supporters and found me, but I remember being on that Black Ball ferry, friends and insiders. That's an absolute sham. and I remember where it docked up there in Nanaimo. This bill allows $10 billion in spending without appro- It's all gone. It's all history now, because the Premier priate public oversight, just to start with. It's going to of the day recognized that our ferry ought to be part remove consumer protection from unnecessary Hydro rate of our transportation and highway system for British hikes and shift more of British Columbians' money into Columbia, that, again, it belongs to British Columbians, the hands of private power companies, and the profits that we here in this province ought to have the right. The aren't even staying in British Columbia. public oversight and control ought to be there of things Nearly 84 cents of every dollar paid to IPPs goes out of like ferries, hydro and, certainly, our rivers and streams. the province to corporate parents in either foreign coun- I would say that W.A.C. was certainly a free-enterpriser tries or other provinces. Those are the reports that I've at one point, but he was a British Columbian first and been reading. In 2008-2009 B.C. electricity consumers foremost, and his ideals fit with ours. Why? Because we 6134 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

care about the future generations, and we know that it in corporate boardrooms, particularly the corporate ought to be in the hands of the public. boardrooms of foreign companies. B.C. Rail was another way. In terms of public policy, You know, I want to pose…. With all of this change when you contrast that with what's going on here with and uncertainty that this act brings, I want to talk about Bill 17, the contrast is absolutely stark. Really, B.C. Rail the fact that we've heard from some employees about — he looked at it. He took it over at a time that it was cer- the impacts of this. We know that this government is tainly losing money, and as a stand-alone business, B.C. going to bring closure at some point pretty quickly here. Rail wasn't always a big moneymaker. They're going to ram this through against the wishes of However, without it, we would not have been able to many British Columbians. But the employees are very develop many of the northern communities, and B.C. concerned about what this means. rural communities and businesses all over the north When I look at the employees that are affected by the benefited dramatically as a result of B.C. Rail, and now amalgamation of B.C. Hydro and the B.C. Transmission it's gone. Now it's gone, all under a cloud of doubt about Corporation, there apparently have been some…. exactly what went on, and the whole thing seems to be mired in the scandal. It's just a shame. It's sad. It's sad, Interjection. really. It should still be owned by B.C. to generate jobs in B.C. B. Routley: No, it's about introductions, but I'll get to I've heard people talking about supporting the forest that in a minute. industry. You know, one of the things that would sup- The employees are concerned about what's going to port the forest industry is to have B.C. Rail so that we happen after this bill goes in, and just for the record, I wouldn't have to depend, go cap in hand to this new want to be certain that we are concerned about the company. I understand from the forest industry that employees and the workers. they're having to pay huge rates, and they feel that their Certainly, this side of the House would want to make competitive advantage…. Certainly, their costs are go- sure there was a transition that took as much fear and ing through the roof. concern out of the workers as possible. I understand So it's bad public policy, just as this Bill 17 is bad pub- there were some communications that went out that lic policy. It's bad public policy because it takes away said things about reviewing any vacancies or potential our public oversight and our future public energy and impacts and minimizing the disruptions. But there's still profits — some certainty for British Columbia. British a concern that there may be some disruptions. So I just Columbians are losing so much with this bill. It's — into the record — want to be sure that that's an issue. unbelievable. With that, I want to pause long enough to allow some- Look at what writer Rafe Mair suggests. He was talking one to make an introduction. about what old W.A.C. would have been suggesting, and he would have been thinking that we shouldn't be doing this Hon. S. Bond: I appreciate the opportunity, and I seek because we shouldn't be dependent upon foreign com- leave to make an introduction. panies. I absolutely agree with that — for our resources, our rivers. Leave granted. [1610] Is there no feeling for British Columbia when Liberals Introductions by Members on the other side stand on the banks of the rivers? Do they really look at those rivers and think: "It's just okay. Hon. S. Bond: Thank you to the member opposite for Give it all away. Give it to some foreign enterprise to that. I very rarely get the opportunity to introduce two make money"? classes in one day in the Legislature, especially when Secondly, he made it clear that we needed to expand students have to travel from as far away as they do from the availability of electricity to wherever we thought Prince George. we needed it best, and no private company is going to I'm very delighted today, on behalf of my colleague expand into places that we may need to go as British the member from Prince George North as well, to intro- Columbians unless there's profit in it for them. That's duce the second group of students who are here from just the facts. Westside Academy. They've had the opportunity to, I Thirdly, we wanted the price of electricity to be an think, tour the Legislature. incentive for the industry and business and fair to the I'm so sorry I didn't get to join you. I was actually busy public. For this to happen, B.C. Hydro had to be the doing my work here in the House, but I know that all conduit, if you like, for that. When you look at it, the of my colleagues would be most appreciative of the fact rationale is very simple. The electorate, when it's under that your teachers and a number of adults have made public control, can force their wishes at the ballot box it possible for you, with a lot of hard work, to actually far more effectively than they can affect any decisions travel here to the precinct. Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6135

We're very glad you came. We hope that you have an public utilities commission, taking them out of the picture opportunity to take back some really good information so that they no longer have any public oversight…. and a great experience here in the Legislature, and I look They're doing that at the same time as they're getting $1 forward to visiting your school very shortly. million, $1.4 million. The public have a right to be Please, if the members would help me make welcome concerned. this group of students from Westside Academy. Where is the public interest in that? I think anybody on the street corner, anybody…. I ask any of these Liberals. Debate Continued You go down to the street corner, and you say: "You know what? We took $1.4 million from a bunch of people that B. Routley: Just to follow up on the employees' con- we're doing backroom dealings with, carving out deals cerns. I don't know whether these employees are from and writing up paper — all kinds of documents." the IBEW or the COPE Union, but I do know that they Well, how come we don't even know? We have no have concerns. idea whether we're getting any profits for the people of [1615] British Columbia because it's a secret. We heard that today They want to be assured that there will be as little in question period. It's unbelievable. We have no idea disruption as possible, so I would ask that the govern- what's going on, and all this cash…. ment communicate in any way that they can to try and How does one get one of these rivers? Like I said, I've allay those fears and concerns of workers and ensure never seen it in the Lake Cowichan Gazette that you that people feel that their jobs are secure and oppor- could come on down and get one of these rivers. Come tunities…. If there are going to be any, disruptions will on down, eh? How does that work? be minimal. So any information in that way would be appreciated. Interjection. Finishing up on W.A.C. Bennett and his adherence to the principles of working for the common good of B. Routley: Yeah, it's not in any of the union newspapers. British Columbians, I would hope that this Liberal gov- I haven't seen it in any union newspapers. I haven't seen ernment would listen and learn from the lessons that it in any public newspaper, because there's some kind of worked so well in the past. However, I must say that I'm cozy club going on here. less than optimistic. It seems the Liberal government It's frightening to think $1.4 million…. I think that is intent on continuing this death spiral, I would call it, with no public policy, I would view this Bill 17 as like of telling the public that they have no concern for their a stickup in broad daylight right here at the Legislature. public interest, whether it comes to the HST or, certainly, That's what it is. on Bill 17. [1620] As I say, it's a river runs through, but not for you. I remember watching the movie The Great Train That's sad. It breaks my heart to think that that's where Robbery. Well, that's chump change, at the end of the day, we're going in the province. It's certainly not visionary in for what's going on here. This bill — we're going to be any way for the province to just be giving away the assets robbing British Columbians now and in the future. On of our province to allow independent power producers this side of the House, we have a set of principles, and I'd to stuff their pockets with cash from B.C. resources like like to contrast those and talk about…. our rivers. I'd like to quote from our Sustainable B.C. principles I think it's worth mentioning, in terms of transpar- — what we believe in. What we believe in is protection ency, and read into the public record…. I find it alarming of the commons. The commons must be held and man- when I read what was disclosed to me on the donations aged in the public interest. That includes our rivers and from IPPs — donations to the Liberal Party. Starting in streams, our environment, the whole province. The 2001, they were somewhat modest. It was $32,240 that commons must be managed in the public interest. was donated that year. They ramped up pretty quickly, The shared public interests are water, air, fish, wildlife though. By 2005 there was $200,663.50, and then by and parks and our protected areas, cultural and intel- 2009 there was $599,929.25 for a total since 2001 of — lectual assets and amenities such as health care and get this — $1,411,009. education, public utilities and infrastructure. That is the This is the public oversight. Not only do we have the kind of government we would be — a government that public oversight, but we're…. cares about the people of B.C. and is not running off doing deals behind closed doors that we can't even tell Interjections. the people of British Columbia about. "Oh, we have privacy laws," apparently. "Oh, we've B. Routley: It's interesting. I hear some chirping from got privacy laws, so we can't disclose what we're paying, the other side about donations. You know, there's a big what we're giving away to these friends." Isn't that un- difference between a government closing the door to the believable? You know, the other day, the minister from 6136 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

Shuswap — well, I won't comment — was wondering jurisdictions. And no one can argue with the wisdom of about my feelings… encouraging — even requiring — energy conservation. [1625] Interjections. As energy analysts point out, the best source of new electricity is conservation. Similarly, one can't argue Deputy Speaker: Members, order. with the idea of additional turbines or bioenergy calls or contracts with pulp and paper customers to purchase B. Routley: …on Bill 17, on that debate. We were electricity. Who among us wants to disagree with the asked the question…. He named me specifically in his idea of reasonable and responsible run-of-river projects speech. He talked about the member for Cowichan that can feed power into our grid? Valley in his debate on Bill 17, so I think I have a right to But as usual, the devil is in the details — the details respond. He asked the question. The question was: what that disappear in a deceptive publicity that surrounds do we feel about corporations? I want to be clear that I so much of what the government tables in this House. think that they're very important — in fact, needed — Every jurisdiction on this continent is developing a in a modern economy. And it may come as a surprise to modern energy plan that will help it through the troub- the members from the other side of the House. ling years ahead. The difference between us is that we believeB .C. polit- I can't describe to members how much I wish I could icians and our government shouldn't be in bed with the support the directions outlined in the Clean Energy Act, big corporations. That's the difference. We're supposed how much I wish I could trust this legislation as the re- to be acting in the public interest. How can you tell the sult of expert deliberation and honest appraisal. That it is people of B.C. you are acting in the public interest when an act that has the stamp of approval from experts in the you're afraid to tell the public what's going on behind energy field, experts in the environment and experts on closed doors? agriculture — an act which is the result of a public discus- sion regarding the massive shift in direction it represents. V. Huntington: It is so hard to follow the hon. barn- But that isn't what happened. The government didn't storming member for Cowichan Valley, but I shall try as have time and didn't want to debate and didn't want to I rise to speak to Bill 17, the Clean Energy Act, which listen to the public or a broader expert perspective. As is outlines the government's plan for our province's energy the case in so many areas, transparency was and is no- future. nexistent. The government knows best. Let me say at the outset that the list of recommenda- The Clean Energy Act is a political document that or- tions from the Green Energy Advisory Task Force is a ders the experts, B.C. Hydro, to develop an energy plan remarkable piece of work, given the time frame allotted that already has its parameters put in place by cabinet. to the committee. As we so well know in this province, To make sure the plan is just what cabinet wants, the energy plans seem to come and go with the speed of Deputy Minister of Energy becomes the vice-president lightning. of B.C. Hydro. In another one of those devilish details, The former Minister ofE nergy, Mines and Petroleum's the former head of the environmental assessment office plan allowed "for the role of coal-fired generation in and the Premier's deputy of clean energy and technol- B.C.'s electricity future," a role that would "allow B.C. ogy is now the Deputy Minister of Energy, Mines and to compete for investment with neighbouring jurisdic- Petroleum. tions." Perhaps there should be a prize for the speed with Who among us dreamt that B.C. Hydro, once the star which government jumps on bandwagons. of all public corporations, would be reduced to provid- The Green Energy Advisory Task Force has provided ing what its political overseers demand? I feel like I'm us with a thoughtful and thorough approach to a modern in the Chicago of the '30s, watching precinct politicians power plan, one that could see B.C.'s power needs secured run their wards by proxy and backroom deals. for years to come. While I have some concerns with the A radical policy shift is in the works, and the people of recommendations, in the main I feel the best interests B.C. had better get ready to start paying for it. The policy of British Columbians were served well. But how those shift represented by this act affects every individual in recommendations unfolded once in the hands of gov- the province and defines an energy plan that changes ernment is what we now face with Bill 17. the very nature of our public utility, that serves to pri- For myself and my constituents, I must look at how Bill vatize our common resources and that impacts the very 17 preserves and protects the environment, the power essence of our physical environment. of independent oversight, the ratepayer and the rights Yes, it will likely make us self-sufficient, and yes, it will of individual landowners and communities who will be provide power for export, but at what cost? Is it a cost we impacted by power projects. On the face of it, no one should be paying? can argue with the provincial mandate to produce clean Let's look at the environmental cost of this clean electricity, both for our province and for neighbouring energy bill. The task force appeared to have a clear Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6137

understanding that the massive hydro power generation Among the papers submitted to the task force was envisaged, whether run-of-river or stored, would have a one prepared by the David Suzuki Foundation, Pembina massive impact on the environment. They clearly recom- Institute, Watershed Watch Salmon Society and West mended, and I quote from the government's own press Coast Environmental Law. The paper was a solid and release, that "the province should review and strengthen holistic approach to a comprehensive energy plan. the environmental assessment process to address and It asks that the province "identify the best and worst manage the cumulative effects of green energy projects areas in B.C. for low-impact renewable electricity and and improve monitoring and compliance." plan the pattern of development accordingly." It asked How did the government respond? Yes, they slipped the the province to "ensure that the public and First Nations phrase "including potential cumulative environmental ef- have meaningful opportunities to affect project plans fects" into the Environmental Assessment Act. Did they while details are still being formulated, and to appeal review and strengthen the process? No, they painted a licensing and leasing decisions." And like the task force, pretty picture by wordsmithing a permissive clause that it asked for a strengthened environmental assessment permits the consideration of cumulative impacts. In this process that addressed cumulative environmental impact province the environmental assessment process only and ensured "robust monitoring and compliance." gets in the way of government policy. It also suggested that energy exports require that de- Does the act provide incentives for the average citizen monstrable greenhouse reductions will accrue in the to assist us in the transition to self-sufficiency?N o, but it importing jurisdiction. That is a comprehensive plan we provides plenty of assistance for private energy firms for could all support without hesitation. We could trust mo- the development of energy. Why doesn't the act encour- tives, actions and outcomes. We could believe that the vast age individual conservation and include a plan that can development envisioned by this Clean Energy Act would help the public achieve targets in a financially manage- have desirable and planned outcomes that could have been able manner? accepted by the citizens of B.C. But that is not the case. The smart meter is a good idea, but it's a punitive one. I understand the vital need the province has for new Where are the rebate and grant programs that would sources of revenue, and I understand that power pro- encourage British Columbians to install renewable duction for the export market will provide that source energy systems in their homes? Where is the personal of revenue. I understand that the province feels the pri- tax incentive to make it attractive to install grid tie sys- vate sector is the cheaper, more efficient way to build tems in homes? that capacity. American and European governments have shown What I do not understand is the willingness of the that consumer incentives are vital to the installation of province to throw open our doors to a relatively new, renewable energy technology and that renewable energy untested industry that will have access to our lands and produced by citizens is an important part of the energy mix. our waters, that will have markets secured for them by [1630] a public corporation, that will have transmission lines Does the act do anything to help remote and rural built for them by a public corporation and that will have communities benefit from the energy plan? The task little obligation to protect either our communities or the force recommended that the province "establish an environment on which they depend. equity fund to enable First Nations and remote com- munities to be full participants in the green economy." Deputy Speaker: May I ask members to keep their The government has created aF irst Nations clean energy separate conversations a little bit quieter so we can hear business fund, but it has left non-native communities the speaker? out in the cold. Why shouldn't all communities benefit? Or is it the P. Pimm: I am glad to stand and take my position and sad fact that government doesn't have a legal obligation speak to Bill 17, the Clean Energy Act. It's very inter- to consult with non-native communities? These projects esting. The year that I've been in this House now…. It's will have significant impacts, and every community very interesting to me to note the differences — distinct should be the beneficiary to the largest extent possible. differences — that the government side has compared What does this bill do for democracy in this prov- to the opposition side. I knew it was always there, but I ince? Does it preserve the opportunity for independent didn't realize it was quite so large a difference. third-party oversight of the energy plan? No. In fact, it Our government is consistently looking at the econ- deliberately removes oversight and places the authority omy, looking at promoting jobs, looking at promoting for both approval and regulation in the hands of cabinet. the economy and doing that in a good way. This energy This consolidation of power is chilling and does abso- act is going to do that exact thing for British Columbia. lutely nothing to make me feel that this government will It's going to allow us to produce some projects. It's going protect the public interest in the face of business interests. to allow us to generate some jobs. On the contrary, the opposite would appear to be true. [1635] 6138 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

Even if we just look at one project alone — in my area, So I think that the whole energy act is a good act. I support Site C. Nobody has talked much about it — 35,000 dir- this act 100 percent moving forward. ect jobs. I think that's pretty impressive. We'll talk a little You know, we're going to have energy requirements bit more about that as we go along here. over the next several years. Some of those requirements The member for Cowichan Valley talked about the are estimated at 20 to 40 percent more energy required rivers and the giveaway of the rivers. I don't really get in the next 20 years, and I think that might be under- that. This act enshrines the two-river policy. There are stating it. If we happen to have the growth that they're no more dams. It goes right into that distinctly. suggesting this province may have, we may have a need He talks about BCUC being gutted. I disagree with for more energy than 20 to 40 percent more. I think it's that as well. TheBCUC is going to be there. It's going to more like 60 percent more possibly. continue doing the job it does now. It sets aside a few So how do we get there? Obviously, through conserva- projects that we can move ahead on, and I think that's tion. That's one way we get there, somewhere between 50 good for our province. It's good for rural British and 65 percent conservation that we're going to be doing. Columbia. It's good for all of British Columbia. You [1640] know, the jobs that it's going to create in this province as The member from Cowichan talked about the smart a result of this act are going to be astronomical. meters and how that was such a poor idea. That's a good He talked a bit about W.A.C. Bennett. I think he'd idea, and it's going to go a long way to getting us to a probably roll over in his grave if he heard those words, point where we're actually going to be able to see what actually. He had a vision, all right, but that vision was kind of consumption we're using, what kind of time-of- the W.A.C. Bennett dam. We're very proud of that dam day consumption we've got. It is also going to give us the up in our area, and I think everybody in the province opportunity later on to pick your peak times when you should be proud of it. It certainly makes it so we can all want to do stuff, and maybe you can do that at a lesser have good, strong power for years and years, and Site C rate than what we're getting now. I think all that is very, is going to add to that vision. That's all part of it. very important. We're so fortunate to be living in British Columbia. The other way that we're going to get to our goals is This is such a good province. I can't imagine ever living we're going to have to have run-of-the-river projects. anywhere else. The northern part of the province, to me, We're going to have to have biomass projects, geother- is a beautiful place to live. But we get it. We get it that mals, solar, wind. We're going to have to have all the we have resources, and there's a little bit of a trade-off. projects. In order to meet the goals that we're looking You're going to have the resources, you're going to have for, building on our heritage assets, we're going to have jobs, and we understand that. It's a concept that seems to to keep moving forward on all these projects, and all be a little difficult in other areas of the province. these projects are good for industry. They're good for There are so many things that are going to create jobs, jobs out there. I'm certainly proud of the fact that we are and that's what this whole thing is about. It's about cre- moving in that direction. ating more jobs and keeping the economy moving and There's going to be a goal to generate 93 percent of moving forward. B.C.'s electricity from clean, renewable sources, and I The area out to the west, in the northwest, with think that's an achievable goal. I think it's a good goal to Highway 37 — the amount of jobs that project is going shoot for; there's no doubt about it. This act is going to to create and what it has a potential of down the road is allow us to get to that level. going to be great for an area of the province that desper- This act is also going to set up the foundation for elec- ately needs help. The potential is just absolutely amazing tricity self-sufficiency. We're going to get there by 2016. — what you're going to have from out there. That's the goal. I think we'll definitely meet that, and We're actually a powerhouse. We're going to be a then we're going to get beyond that. powerhouse in clean energy. There's no doubt in my It's going to allow us to meet some of the markets mind, and there's absolutely no reason we should be and move forward with some of the projects. The herit- afraid of saying that we want to be a net exporter of power. age assets, including Site C, Mica dam, Revelstoke, the I don't believe there's anything wrong with that. We're northwest power line, northeast power lines — these an exporting nation. We're an exporting province. We are all projects that are going to benefit all of British export lumber. We export our mining. We're an export- Columbia for many, many years. oriented province, and we should be proud of that fact. You can look at the upgrades that have been going on It's because of those exports that we have all the won- in the Revelstoke area, the B.C. Hydro upgrades at the derful things we have — that we have health care, that Bennett dam over the past few years. They're putting we have an education system we can all be so proud of people to work. They're good, solid jobs. I'm sure the — and continue to have those kinds of revenues. If we member from Revelstoke would have to agree that these didn't have a resource community, we wouldn't have the are good, high-paying jobs, and they're jobs that people revenues to support any of that infrastructure we've got. do need. So I don't understand why the opposition is Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6139

opposed to this bill that is going to allow us to move Because of what the government has done, the invest- forward and to create this kind of infrastructure that we ment in the heritage assets throughout the province…. so badly need. That's what keeps our rates at the level they're at. That's The other thing that it's going to do is it's going to har- why we've got the best rates anywhere, because we have ness B.C. It's going to make us a clean power potential those assets, and we continue to have those assets. We're out there. It's going to create jobs in every region of the going to continue to build on those assets, and that will province. Every rural area is going to benefit from this continue to give us the rate at the prices we have today act. There's absolutely no question about it. Northwest, and keep us at that competitive edge. northeast, Kootenays — all of those areas are going to Hydro has embarked recently on reinvesting in that benefit from this act.I f jobs are what we're looking for, if infrastructure. They're going to spend $2 billion over the the economy is what we're looking to build on, this act next few years on the aging infrastructure. They're going to is going to go a long ways to help in that. bring that up to speed. They're going to increase some of It's also going to give the independent power producers the transmission capabilities so that we can actually accom- a market that they're going to have. It's going to allow modate the new infrastructure that's coming on stream. them to continue to provide the jobs that they provide. By law, the low-rate benefits that come from B.C.'s They're going to provide 10,000 jobs over the next decade. existing and future heritage assets are going to flow exclu- That's a lot of jobs. sively to British Columbians, and they're not going to be This act is also going to allow us to continue to have used to subsidize export power sales. This bill sets that out. the lowest power rates in North America. At this point It secures those low rates for British Columbians, for our in time we've got the second-lowest power rate in North residents and for our industry over the next years to come. America, and I think we want to keep that. The act ensures that our heritage assets are going to remain heritage assets. They're going to be owned by the Interjection. province, and we're going to be adding new assets to that as well. The Highway 37 project, hopefully, is going to P. Pimm: That's good, though. Second is pretty darn get cleared and move forward, hopefully this fall even. good, I've got to tell you. It beats the heck out of a lot of There are opportunities that that's going to move forward, provinces, especially one right next door to us. It gives and it's certainly going to help the whole northwest area us that competitive advantage for our industry that we — a lot of optimism coming around that project. so badly need. I'd like to talk a little bit more about that northwest We've now got industry moving back to this province. power line. I was just recently over at our NCLGA meet- We got through the regime of high taxes for industry, ings in Smithers. I got an opportunity to talk to several business and corporations. We've now got the tax struc- communities over there, and they're hurting. In that part ture in place to allow businesses to move back. We've got of the province they're needing some help. So this hydro the energy in place to allow them to have good energy at line is something that's going to help. It's going to allow a realistic and reasonable price. That's important. That's industry to start thinking about making the investments, how you get corporations to move into your area. moving up that Highway 37, and they're starting to talk We've got to remember that corporations and busi- about it now. But the communities over there have to get nesses are who provide the jobs. It's not people going out on board with this as well. themselves and providing jobs. Businesses and corpora- When I hear the MLAs talking about not supporting tions provide jobs. You've got to give them a climate that that project, I don't understand where they would be com- enhances the opportunity for them to invest and create ing from. It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. In jobs. That's what this act does. This act makes it so that the northeast we understand that we have a resource there. we're going to have a stable economy and help move for- We work with it. That's how we survive. That's what it's go- ward with the economy over the next…. I can see 20 years ing to take in the northwest as well. They're going to have of good times here, coming forward, just by this act alone. to start thinking about how to survive. So Hydro's going to [1645] be moving forward with that line. It's going to be one of I'd like to talk a little bit more about the heritage assets. our assets. It's going to be one of our heritage assets. We're fortunate. In our area, with the W.A.C. Bennett dam, The line on Highway 37 is going to be high-voltage it's an asset that is there. It's one that provides us with the transmission. It's going to add to the grid. The project's power in this building. As you know, we went through going to provide a secure interconnection point for clean some storms here a month ago, and we lost power in generation projects, supply clean energy to support in- our area. We lost power in the Lower Mainland. When dustrial developments in the area, and it's going to reduce you lose power for two or three days, all of a sudden you greenhouse gas emissions by connecting communities start realizing that you need to have that power. It's a now relying on diesel generation to that grid. fundamental part of our lifestyle and something that we I know about that. We had one of the communities definitely need. in my area that went from everybody having their own 6140 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

generators in their back yard. They actually got to go The Environmental Assessment Act process will be on to a B.C. Hydro grid, and they're pretty amazed. It's strengthened by this act as well. It's going to specifically changed that community. Every time I go and talk to provide assessments for potential cumulative environ- any of those people, they're going: "Wow, how did we mental effects.I n addition, the development or proposed survive this for so many years?" Rural British Columbia. energy projects in parks, protected areas, conservancies It's something that you don't even think about when you are all going to be prohibited by law. That's part of this as come from a big urban centre. But in rural areas, those well. I think the act itself is certainly going to be benefi- are problems that you deal with on a daily basis. cial to the province. I think it's a good act. I think that's [1650] all I'll say about the act for today. It's amazing. This is a big project. The northwest trans- [1655] mission line is a big project. It's 335 kilometres from Skeena substation to the new substation at Bob Quinn Lake — M. Mungall: As we all know, we've been signing $400 million. That's a big project. This government, along many of the graduation certificates in this House. I've with the federal government, can see the opportunity, been seeing many members doing that, and it's because can see the potential — the whole northwest corridor. graduation season is upon us. That's the time where our There's huge potential in that area. high school graduates are going to be going across the The transmission line is going to result, I think, in a floor, across the stage, and the tassel on the mortarboard boom in the mining industry. There are 11 proposed pro- is going to be moved from the right to the left to com- jects in that region — $15 billion of potential investment memorate their great achievement. and up to 10,000 jobs that could be directly attributed to It was actually about a week ago. Geez, time flies in the Highway 37 electrification. It's amazing. this House, and it's hard to keep track of all the days. I I'd like to talk a little bit about the Site C project as well. was actually sitting in this House, listening to the min- Site C, in my area, is part of the vision we talked about — ister start the debate for Bill 17, when I was signing the W.A.C. Bennett's vision. Site C is going to move forward. certificates for graduates in my constituency of Nelson- It's a huge announcement for our province, and 35,000 Creston. They are amazing and truly inspirational young jobs could be directly attributed to Site C. I know, for people. I've had the opportunity to speak with many of myself, I'm going to be fighting to keep some of those them in their classrooms over the last year. jobs at home. That's going to be my number one role up What I think is very interesting — not just having there. I'm going to be securing jobs. been signing those certificates as the minister was start- The opposition are fighting against projects like this. ing this debate — was it was so fitting because so much So when it comes to jobs, I'm thinking…. I don't under- of what this act is about is about looking into the future, stand. I don't know where their unions are at. They must just as those graduates are doing right now as they take be telling them in the back rooms, "We want those jobs their step into adulthood and start thinking about what too," but I guess, obviously, when it comes time to fight kinds of careers they want to be having, but not just for those jobs, I'm going to be fighting harder for the careers — what they want to see out of their world. non-union jobs, I have to tell you right now. Hopefully, They want to see things like environmental sustain- we can fill them all up there, but I don't think we can. I ability, social and economic sustainability. They want to think there will be a little spilloff. see decisions being made for the public benefit because The project, 900 megawatts in capacity, is a third of that's who they are. They're the public. This is so in line the capacity of the current W.A.C. Bennett dam, and with what they're needing for our natural resources. all that capacity is going to be done within 5 percent of Hon. Speaker, I do believe that I have a colleague who the footprint of the Bennett dam. I can't even get my would like to make a special introduction. I see several mind wrapped around that, and I think a lot of people people in the gallery, so I'm sure this is exactly what it's up there can't get their mind wrapped around it either. for. I will let him do that. They think it's going to be another dam the same size as Williston, and it's going to be 5 percent of Williston, to G. Gentner: Thank you to the member for Nelson- create 33 percent of the capacity. Creston for my indulgence. I seek leave to make an The smart meters. Again, 1.8 million customers are introduction. going to be on the digital solid-state meters. It's going to give us that opportunity to deliver real-time data for Leave granted. customers to manage their electrical consumption and the possibility for lower rates if you happen to be going Introductions by Members at off-peak times. You have the possibility of saving even more money on your energy bills if you can turn your G. Gentner: It's a great deal of pleasure for me to- dishwasher on at ten o'clock when you go to bed instead day to introduce John Nyznik and Mr. Yang and fellow of six o'clock, when it's the most used time. teachers and parents and 50 grade 6 students from Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6141

McCloskey Elementary School in North Delta. They us? No, they don't. No, they don't. One thing, most notably, were here, and they went down into the dungeon, and that this act does not even consider — and that the yes, they actually saw some Liberal cabinet ministers whole private power scheme that this government has not down there, along with the jail. Could the House please considered — is, of course, our free trade deals and the make them welcome. North American Free Trade Agreement and, currently being negotiated, the free trade agreement with the Debate Continued European Union, whose largest…. The largest corporations that want water privatization are housed in Europe. M. Mungall: Yes, some of our guests who are here in We have these free trade agreements to which British the gallery, being in grade 6, only have six more years to Columbia, as a part of Canada, is going to be beholden. go before they're going to also be graduating and getting These are very important, as I learned today — again, certificates from their MLAs in this House. learned today — on a radio show that I host called Back to my point around creating a plan now for our Women and Water, where I discussed with two guests about natural resources. The things to consider are the exact what's going on around privatization and international same things that young people who are graduating from trade and how international free trade is actually the high school today are wanting. mechanism in which we are seeing water privatization They want to see that environmental sustainability. in this country. They want to see that public benefit. They want to ensure that It couldn't be further from the truth when it comes to the benefits that we accrue from our natural resources, this government's private power plans that this bill em- such as water, biofuels, our trees, our agricultural lands, bodies, that we are going to see the ultimate privatization everything…. They want to be seeing that come back to of our waterways. Water is for sale in B.C., apparently; them as part of the public. It is our resources, after all. water is for sale in B.C. That, of course, is part and parcel with not just the social sustainability of making sure that when those Interjection. benefits come back to us, we're able to deliver strong pub- lic programs like health care, education, post-secondary M. Mungall: I hear some chirping from across the way education — which many of the grads are going to be saying that that's not true. Well, perhaps they should go looking to this fall — but also we need to be thinking and investigate and get more details around the inter- about economic sustainability. national trade agreements, because that's an issue that How do we create a stable economy? Not one that that side of the House never wants to talk about. They rides a roller-coaster at the corporate whims of the day, never want to talk about that. But it is a fact of life in but one that is stable, that ensures that we have long- this country. term benefits, that our wages are matching the inflation, It is a fact of life, and if they went and actually did the cost of housing — which doesn't happen right now their research and learned how international trade in B.C. agreements are going to be impacting their private [1700] power scheme embodied in this bill, they would know That's what people want. That's what people want to that exactly what they're doing is selling our water out be seeing — especially the young grads of today — and to the highest bidder, who happens to, likely, donate to how we manage our natural resources to maintain that, their party. as well as, of course, the environmental sustainability. This bill not only reminds me of high school graduation Here we are in the era of climate change, and we need to simply because it's the season for high school gradua- be thinking well into the future, just as the high school tion, and I was writing certificates of congratulations to grads are, to ensure that we are maintaining environ- Nelson-Creston grads when the hon. minister got up to mental integrity. start this debate, but I have to admit that it reminds me What does this act do for that, planning for our fu- of some of the dates I went on when I was younger. ture? Well, it fundamentally changes the way in which we are currently managing our resources and assets. But An Hon. Member: Do tell. it doesn't do it in a way that I think most high school grads want to be seeing when we talk about public M. Mungall: People are eager to hear about some of benefits and that social, economic and environmental these dates, hon. Speaker. sustainability. Rather, what we're seeing with Bill 17, the At first glance, this bill has got an eco-flirtatious title. Clean Energy Act, is a fundamental change that creates a It's looking pretty good — Clean Energy Act, promises profit-friendly environment first and foremost. of development with more renewable energy — and It's about creating an environment where big corpora- even includes some expensive, flashy advertising, trying to tions get to make big profits off the public's resources and make itself look good. But when you read the full docu- the public's assets, and yet, do those profits come back to ment, those good looks come to an end. 6142 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

This is one particular date I had with a cute guy. He Members across the way are patting themselves on was really cute, a really good-looking guy, and he professed the back just like that guy I dated — so convinced that that he was an environmentalist. We went out once. He what they're doing and what they're saying is wooing me, went on and on and on about all the good things he does that it's winning me over. They're so convinced that it's for the environment. happening. They're like: "Here's this young gal on the [1705] other side…." Like this one guy I was dating. I was sitting You know, he likes to reduce his waste. He recycles. He across the table from him. He was sitting there, and he even has a compost bucket underneath his sink. Apart was, like: "I'm doing a good job. She's really liking me. from that, he likes to go on hikes. He really enjoys being That's what's happening right now." And it was working out in the wilderness, he'd say. He really enjoyed all of for a time. It really was. this beautiful, super, natural environment that we have Then he offered to give me a lift home. I was kind of in British Columbia, and he was doing his part to make liking this guy at this point, so I said: "Okay." You know, sure that it was sustainable. Just as a parallel…. I did ride my bike there, so I thought: "Okay. I'll just leave my bike locked up overnight, and I'll take a ride Interjection. home, just so I can spend a little bit of extra time with this charming, good-looking guy" — really cute, saying M. Mungall: Oh, the Minister of Environment is in- all these great, environmentalist things. sisting that he's the guy. I bet you, hon. Speaker, he might have been. Otherwise, it might have been his brother. So An Hon. Member: Did he run out of gas? just like this date of mine, who…. Maybe we'll leave it up for the B.C. public to decide if it was the Minister of M. Mungall: Then I got outside. I didn't even get in Environment or not. We'll leave them guessing. the car. He was driving a Hummer, hon. Speaker. He was But just like this date, who went on and on about how driving a Hummer. He's sitting there talking about how good an environmentalist he was, how he cared for all he's an environmentalist. I get out to his vehicle. He the little critters in B.C., how he did the three Rs plus doesn't have a hybrid — or, better yet, have a bike so we composting and all these good things for the environ- could go bicycling together. That would be more en- ment…. You know, he was conscious about drinking vironmentally friendly, especially since we got it before water from the tap rather than buying it in water bottles the HST came in. and everything. I listened to the words from the Minister of Energy Interjection. and listened to the words that he said in opening up this debate, and it sounds really good, just like this guy M. Mungall: One member across the way says it's I went on a date with. Here it sounds really good: "The harder to park with a bike. Actually, it's easier, and he Clean Energy Act responds to these opportunities and would know if he actually rode a bike to work. I know establishes a long-term vision for British Columbia to he doesn't, hon. Speaker, because I see him all the time become a clean energy powerhouse." Doesn't that sound walking down the street. I'm on my bike; he's probably great, hon. Speaker? It sounds so good. walking to his car. It goes on. [Applause.] Oh, they're just cheering for Anyway, back to the story about how this date of mine themselves across the way, because it goes on: "B.C.'s was driving a Hummer, the most environmentally un- actions to implement the clean energy powerhouse friendly vehicle he could possibly be driving. That brings strategy will focus on three areas: meeting the long-term me back to the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum electricity needs of British Columbians at low rates, Resources, to his speech that opened up the debate on harnessing British Columbia's clean power potential to this bill, Bill 17, the Clean Energy Act. It sounds good, create jobs in every region, and strengthening environ- but it's driving a Hummer. mental stewardship and reducing greenhouse gas [1710] emissions." Oh my goodness. My heart is pitter-pattering, Just like that guy who was driving a Hummer, here we almost, here. have the member from across the way talking about what But then we go on. Then the minister says: B" ut we will essentially is the Hummer of the Clean Energy Act. need to be even more aggressive with energy efficiency "Site C will provide lasting economic and social benefits for northern communities, aboriginal groups and the province. It and conservation." More aggressive? Now, I'm an en- will create an estimated 7,650 construction jobs" — those are vironmentalist, so I'm just thinking, like: "Oh, this direct construction jobs, he said — "and up to 35,000 direct and sounds really good." indirect jobs through all stages of the project. Construction of "The Clean Energy Act includes a new commitment to Site C will be subject to regulatory approvals and to ensuring that the Crown's constitutional duties to First Nations are met." meet 66 percent of B.C. Hydro's future incremental power He also says: "Site C and new turbines at Mica and Revelstoke demand from conservation and efficiency improvement by will ensure a source of clean, reliable, competitively priced 2020, an increase from the current target of 50 percent." power for decades to come." Then he goes on to say: "All will Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6143

still be subject to environmental assessments and to ensuring one side of the Purcell Mountains over to the other side that the Crown's obligations to First Nations are met." in the east Kootenay. He wanted to really emphasize this, so I'll emphasize They were going to do it right through ancient- for it too. He says: ests, cutting down beautiful, ancient trees that provide "Let me read that again. All will still be subject to environmental assessments and to ensuring that the Crown's obligations to First homes to a diversity of wildlife, to a diversity of plants Nations are met." so important for our biodiversity that ensures that our Come on. He's driving a Hummer. How on earth could province is environmentally sustainable. he possibly be ensuring that environmental standards are It would have damaged habitat for endangered species going to be met for Site C when he's driving a Hummer? like the wolverine. Studies are a little bit inconclusive at He's obviously not that dedicated to the environment this time, but a lot of proponents for caribou habitat when he's driving the most environmentally unfriendly were concerned that this was going to negatively impact vehicle there can possibly be. them as well as grizzly bears. But right in the creek, go- Not only that, but he says that Site C is going to be ing back to that Glacier Creek…. It's home to blue-listed subject to environmental assessments. But previously in bull trout, genetically unique to that creek. Because of his speech, those quotes I read previously, it sounds like the Duncan dam, we would have lost them, and it was Site C is a done deal. So which is it? Which is it? Is Site C precisely because of those little critters, those bull trout, going to happen, or is Site C going to be subject to environ- that we were able to stand up for them and stop this mental assessments? Because it sounds like Site C's going project. through. It's going through because these environmental Over 1,000 submissions were written in to the en- assessments, as determined by the California Senate, are vironmental assessment office. Over 200 people came just like driving a Hummer. out in Meadow Creek to have their voice heard on the Just like that Hummer that my good-looking date Glacier-Hawser proposed project; over 300 people in drove, the B.C. Liberal independent power project scheme Invermere. In Kaslo there were more people at the pub- isn't so good for the environment. We already mentioned lic meeting than there were that actually live in Kaslo. Site C, but let's talk about what they like to say is run of Over 1,100 people packed J.V. Humphries gymnasium river. to say: "We don't want to see this project in our area, and Well, we all know, especially in my region of Nelson- frankly, we don't want to see this type of scheme any- Creston in the West Kootenays, and it's been often said, where in British Columbia." So I know that when I stand that the run-of-the-river projects proposed under this here today, people in Nelson-Creston don't want to see Liberal government are more like ruin of the river and Bill 17 because they see it for what it is — that Hummer incredibly damaging to important ecosystems — just of a vehicle. like that Hummer vehicle that that date I had drove. But the other side, you know, does keep saying that Parallel that to this government's IPP scheme that is we're going to have low rates. Now, every time we hear going to be rolled out and expanded upon with Bill 17. the minister saying that, I know he's sweet-talking me. That scares us in Nelson-Creston, because we've already I'm very sure that he is. In fact, I was listening to his fought very, very strongly for two lovely creeks, beauti- speech when he first opened the debate on this bill, and ful areas of the region, Glacier and Howser creeks — just he says: "The benefits of electricity exports will accrue located off Duncan reservoir — which a lot of people to all British Columbians, but ratepayers will not bear would like to see a turbine in. the cost." What Glacier and Howser creeks were going to look "Trust me," he says. "Trust me." He also says earlier on in like after a proposed private power scheme would be a his speech, and I've already mentioned this part: "Meeting dam up about 22 kilometres from the road turnoff, a the long-term electricity needs of British Columbians at dam diverting the water into a total of 16 kilometres of low rates." That's the goal of this bill. That's what he says. penstock the size of a bus in diameter — diverting that That's some really good sweet-talking. I've got to be water, never to go back to the creekbed again. It wouldn't honest. I've got to talk about another guy I dated. I was a go back there. It would go through the penstock, even- bit more committed to this one. We actually moved in tually heading back down to the lake after it's generated together. Yeah, I was pretty young. Before we moved in around 100 megawatts of power — private power, which together, he did say that the rent and the housing costs would then be transmitted to the East Kootenay. would be low. But he wasn't quite upfront with how low [1715] that they were going to be, and he wouldn't tell me ne- How? How would it be transmitted to the East cessarily why they were going to be low. He wouldn't let Kootenay, you're wondering? You know that there's no me look at the books, and I very naively moved in with power transmission there. Well, let me tell you. AXOR him all the same. corporation, along with building these dams and these At this point you might be thinking that I have dated turbines in the back country, in pristine, beautiful wil- a lot of guys who aren't too stand-up, and I have to tell derness, was going to build a transmission line from the you that my dad reminded me this last weekend that he 6144 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010 would agree with you. He said, "My daughter, you have "TheC lean Energy Act will expedite B.C. Hydro's elec- not dated a lot of good guys, but thank goodness you're tricity purchase agreements…." It will expedite them. with a good one now," and he pointed to my current What does that mean? If we're expediting them, the partner. question then says: well, who's expediting them? Why, It's true. I have kissed a few toads in my lifetime, so and who is watching on behalf of the public? Going back I know when I'm seeing one, and I see one again when to my parallel of that guy that I dated, I wasn't watching the minister says that rates are going to stay low. I see very closely as I should have been when he said: "Oh, another toad here — some good sweet-talking, just like don't worry. The rents will be low, dear." that guy that I dated or even moved in with, and he told My dad was the smart one, like BCUC, saying: "Don't me that rent was going to be low, and you know what? It get mixed up with this guy." That's what my dad was. wasn't low. It wasn't low at all. My dad is a good guy, and he knows that I deserve bet- [1720] ter. I've got to agree with him, and I've got to agree with Of course, everything was costing more, and I can tell BCUC here. I've got to agree with them, because they've you what I did with that guy. I left, which is how maybe been watching out for the public. They've been watch- British Columbians are feeling about this government ing to protect our interests. They've been looking at the these days. books on our behalf. Anyhow, how does this act behave just like that guy What have they found? They've found that this Liberal that I moved in with so long ago? Well, it paves the way government's plan is not in the best interest of British for IPP development off of our natural resources and Columbians. How did the Liberal government respond? It guarantees the corporations running IPPs an export responded by hobbling BCUC, by reverting decision- market at the ratepayers' expense. I'm going to have to making on energy production to the political realm of pay more. I had to pay more for rent when I lived with cabinet. Not an independent body that's there solely for that guy. Well, now I'm living with this government, and the benefit of B.C. residents but to the political realm of I'm going to have to pay more. This is not a sweet deal — cabinet — a cabinet, by the way, that has received over $1.4 just sweet-talking. million in donations from independent power producers. Section 8. Let's go right into the act. Section 8 of the Here we are. We have them being pulled in two differ- act requires the B.C. Utilities Commission to allow rate ent directions. One direction is to do the right thing. It's increases so that B.C. Hydro can pay for projects, pro- being pulled by an independent body. The other direc- grams and contracts, particularly contracts with private tion is by their donors. I feel like they're choosing their power producers. We're going to have to increase rates donors over the public, and that is wrong. to make sure that we can have those contracts with the [1725] private power producers. Sounds to me like I'm going to Like I've said throughout this contribution to the de- have to be paying more. bate on Bill 17, I've kissed enough toads in my life to Considering that most of B.C. Hydro's energy purchase know that the only thing that's being offered byB ill 17 is agreements with private power companies are above yet another toad. It is not good for British Columbians. market value and certainly above what it costs for B.C. I'm going to be paying more, British Columbians are go- Hydro to generate its own power, you can expect us to ing to be paying more, and our interests are not going to be paying more. be at the table for our energy interests. I love going back to the minister's speech — right? — The grads who are going across the stage right now because like I said… The minister is so proud of his throughout B.C. and celebrating their achievement of speech, but I've referred to it several times. He's standing graduating from grade 12 — they're not going to be see- there patting himself on the back, trying to be an en- ing what they want out of this bill. They're not going to vironmentalist, but he drives a Hummer vehicle. be seeing environmental sustainability, social and eco- nomic sustainability, and public control over public Interjection. assets and public benefits coming back to us. That's what they're not going to be seeing. M. Mungall: The minister is fixating on a particular issue, hon. Speaker, and it's not the issue at hand. R. Cantelon: I was held spellbound for some time "In addition to Crown investments," says the Minister here listening to the travails — I won't say escapades; of Energy, "new independent power projects will also that's not the word I intend to use — and adventures, be needed to achieve the self-sufficiency requirements." perhaps, of the member for Nelson-Creston. I'm very We're going to have to do this, he says. "The clean and re- relieved to hear that the story had a favourable outcome newable electricity and technology sector has contributed personally for her. I'm greatly relieved about that. I won- significantly to the development of British Columbia's dered for a moment to myself whether we were going to electricity system, and the Clean Energy Act creates new have to evacuate the grade 6s in the gallery before the opportunities" for them. That's where he's going. story was played out fully, but thankfully not. Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6145

I understand. I mean, to be confronted by this eco- manner that's useful to the fish, wildlife and other rec- flirtation,I think she called it…. I guess the individual would reational purposes. The water isn't sold. have to be called an "eco-imposter" — or something like [1730] that. Certainly, it was not a happy experience for her, and But we do extract the energy from it, and I think this we're not surprised that she acquitted herself well from is certainly a very clean way to do it. It doesn't require the situation. any harm, with emissions or anything else being put into But I want to talk about the Minister of Energy, who the atmosphere, but it takes the power out of the water is sitting here today. The Minister of Energy has been and returns it peacefully — its energy withdrawn from referred to as a sweet talker. I don't know if sweet talker it — into the streams and gives us the benefit of ongoing is a phrase we would use in connection with our Minister sustainable power. of Energy. We love him dearly. He's very bold, and he's Sustainability is a key word. I agree with the member very persuasive. That's true. opposite from Nelson-Creston that young people are in- deed interested in sustainability. Certainly, the people in Interjection. my area are, as the representative from Parksville-Qualicum. We're very cognizant on Vancouver Island of not being R. Cantelon: Bold, not bald. Sorry. Let Hansard read able to be self-sufficient in hydroelectric power or any "bold" with an "o." other form of power. We have a couple of small hydro- I don't think he would be called a sweet talker. And electric facilities. We have, of course, a biomass project he doesn't drive, I can assure you, an energy-consuming up in the Deputy Speaker's own home riding of Campbell Humvee at all. In fact, his preferred mode of transporta- River, which works quite efficiently. tion has only two wheels and two cylinders. He drives it Some time ago, when I was sitting on Nanaimo city modestly. It's very conservative. So he's anything but a council, there was a proposal for a natural gas energy plant sweet talker. facility to produce power through steam. While it was cer- As he's presenting this bill to us, Bill 17, I know that tainly the most efficient device of its type in the marketplace, uppermost in his mind is that he wants all British very similar to the one that's installed in Campbell River…. Columbians to respect us in the morning. That's uppermost In fact, the entire turbine could be placed in this room, and in his mind. Indeed they will, not just in the morning yet it would power an immense amount — about 20 per- but in decades and centuries to come, because this is a cent, as I recall — of Vancouver Island's needs. very bold — not bald — forward-looking act that takes Nevertheless, it was powered by natural gas, and us into the next decades and into the next century, with even though the zoning was in place to install this at energy self-sufficiency. It's certainly something that we Duke Point and the project could have gone ahead, the need. developers and the proponents respecting the concerns of people living in the Nanaimo airshed — in fact as far Interjection. as Gabriola Island — backed away from that proposal, although they could have done it. R. Cantelon: I hear some comments from the member So I'm very aware that the citizens on Vancouver for Juan de Fuca who, on the subject, has commented — Island are very sensitive to the environment, very sensi- and I hope I'm quoting him correctly — on the Voice of tive to sustainability. B.C., on February 1: "The notion that we need to be self- We have an older demographic in Qualicum Beach, sufficient in electrons seems to run hollow in my brain." in Parksville where I live — some of the more senior of I won't give him a whole physiology lesson — I know seniors in British Columbia. But they're very sensitive, he's present and would appreciate these comments — as they enjoy their senior years, that they want to leave but the electrons are actually synapses in the brain. They British Columbia as beautiful as the community that actually cause thoughts. That may be a new concept for they were born into or came to, whichever the case may the member for Juan de Fuca, but that's actually what it be. They're very concerned about sustainability, and is. I encourage him in the development of that activity. that's why it's so important that this act move forward It will be only beneficial to both sides of thisH ouse, and and that we adopt it and, so importantly, why I support it. we appreciate his comments. Some of the clauses, I think, in terms of sustainability Let me move on and move away from the…. Although are that the Environmental Assessment Act process will we certainly appreciated the comments from the mem- be strengthened to specifically provide for assessments ber for Nelson-Creston, I would like to take issue with a of "potential cumulative environmental effects." The couple of them. member for Nelson-Creston and her community re- She mentioned the concept of selling water. Well, of acted to the immediate effects, butI think we need to go course, I think that's certainly a misconstruction of what beyond that to assess what the cumulative effects are is actually happening. The water goes nowhere but stays over a period of time, the effects of developing energy in British Columbia. It's returned to the streams in a sources for the people of British Columbia. 6146 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

I think that alludes not only to greenhouse gases and wrong. You're going to have to put that myth away from other emissions but to other cumulative effects that we your catalogue of suggestions to assail us with. By law may have through watershed diversions and other ef- now, B.C. Hydro will remain protected by legislation. fects — that we remain as neutral as we can with respect British Columbians will benefit from a unified, publicly to the environment and keep our footprint as small as owned entity that will capitalize on the proven strengths possible. and trusted service of both organizations. The development of energy projects in parks, pro- I think this puts to calm a lot of myths and fears tected areas and conservancies will be prohibited by law. British Columbians had that we were selling the assets Now, that seemed to be a pretty obvious thing to do, and of British Columbia. We're not selling them. You got it? yet there are fearmongers. I'm not accusing members on By law, we're not selling them. So there we are. the opposite side, but there are people who continually I think these two moves to make British Columbia's say: "Oh, they're going to go into the parks with run-of- greatest assets, our power and river resources, under the river projects or conservancies or dam this water in a control and direction and development of B.C. Hydro is park area." This law protects our future citizens from any going to be a long-term and great benefit to all citizens such incursions into protected areas, and I think that's a of British Columbia. very important principle. The member for Nelson-Creston did mention, again The member for Nelson-Creston also mentioned that on the big companies issues, that it's to the benefit of big big companies and big corporations will profit. Well, companies. I think one of the most encouraging things she's right in a way, because the biggest corporation in that I see coming out of this act is the diversification not the power business, which is B.C. Hydro, definitely will only in methods of developing hydro power resources benefit from this act. The sole shareholder, the citizens and other hydro resources — certainly not hydro power of British Columbia, will benefit. The biggest company alone, but the diversification within the province. will get bigger. I mentioned earlier that on Vancouver Island we're They're going to acquire the assets of the B.C. very acutely aware of the fact that we have to import the Transmission Corporation, which was originally created majority of our power from the Mainland. We're sensi- in 2003 to respond to industry directions in being able tive to the fact that this power must come through other to wholesale and sell power. But it became clear that it corridors, that it's not always a popular thing to the resi- was more workable to have everybody under one roof dents on the Lower Mainland that the power has to be and that they could consolidate and become more effi- funnelled through and delivered to Vancouver Island so cient with using the same human resources departments that we can turn on our lights and our stoves and enjoy and other management capabilities. the electrical benefits that are common everywhere in [1735] British Columbia. B.C. Hydro will get bigger, and they will combine into I'm very encouraged by the fact that now we're at- a single corporation with one board of directors and one tempting to diversify in locations on Vancouver Island executive. I know the members opposite are loath to not only geographically but by methods of power gen- hear about the highly paid executives and directors, and eration. There's a group on Vancouver Island near my they're loath to hear the high salaries given to corporate area called International Composting Corp. They're a directors and corporate chairs. So I'm sure they're going very, very unique corporation. They have developed pat- to be heartened. They may not mention it, but I will, if I ents worldwide on composting what is to everybody may. Certainly that's why I'm here. else refuse, garbage — unwanted material basically. They'll be merged into one board of directors, one They have digesters that would nearly fill this room, executive and the transfer of B.C. Transmission a couple of them, and they use an anaerobic process Corporation's assets, liabilities and employees to B.C. that takes virtually any input and slowly rotates it in this Hydro. So we'll have one large corporation, and it will massive drum. Over the course of three days the ma- be owned by…. terial decomposes naturally at a temperature that kills all the pathogens. So there's absolutely no material that Interjections. could be harmful to anyone from a bacterial or organic point of view, and it's done anaerobically — that is, with- R. Cantelon: That's right. Well, we counter those who out air. That's one of the factors that kills all the germs would say we're simple ideologues…. We're not. We're and the bugs in it. practical, and we do what is best under the circum- At the end what you have out is a neutral-smelling, al- stances. The integration will be owned by the province of most earth-like material. They've developed this process British Columbia, and public ownership of B.C. Hydro's that works very, very well. The only disadvantage is that assets will remain protected by legislation. it produces too much material, which is normally used I think this is going to be the stake through that devil for composting. It produces an abundant amount of this that we hear: "You're going to sell off B.C. Hydro." No — material, literally tons of it. In fact, they would be very Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6147

interested in looking at expanding their facilities. Their They're entrepreneurs. This is not a big company, as model is scalable. So they could move it to handle all of was alluded to today by the member for Nelson-Creston. the Lower Mainland's garbage. This indeed is a small company of a handful of people But it's working very well. They're taking garbage that has the potential to become an international leader from the regional district and from Cowichan and com- in energy production. posting all the normal waste from restaurants initially. While I'm on that, in terms of talking about the Now we're doing pickups in Qualicum Beach and other regional district of Nanaimo, I would like to compliment areas, and the residents are responding tremendously. Chairman Stanhope and all the members of the regional [1740] district of Nanaimo for all the energy-saving ways It has a double benefit here. First of all, the garbage, they've taken. Diversions from the landfill now exceed the organic material, is collected and then sent to this 60 percent, but more specifically, they now are capturing facility and composted. It composts beautifully and all the methane from the landfill. That methane is being completely down to something that looks like black soil. converted into production of energy and being put back They've been working for some time on their process. in the grid through diesel engines. It's patented and works well. It produces an excess Of course, please remember, these diesel engines are amount of material. As I mentioned, they would also running on the product of methane which is, in effect, like to expand it to other areas. It has a secondary benefit, natural gas, which is developed and normally would go then, of diverting stuff from the landfill, as well as having into the air and pollute our atmosphere. We're capturing it a potential for power. from the landfill inC edar and putting it into diesel engines, which are now producing power. That is one part that [L. Reid in the chair.] the regional district is doing. The second one that they're very ahead of the curve But we're here to talk about the potential for power. I'm on is taking methane from the solid waste plant and surprised members opposite haven't alerted me to my di- converting fumes, which usually have a very noxious version here, but I thank them because I know they're so and unpleasant odour to residents. They're capturing engrossed and engaged by my story about this. that and converting that, again, into methane and putting Now they have this excess of organic material, and it into diesel power and generation. they can't, frankly, sell it fast enough to empty their So there are two initiatives, taking both sewage waste storehouse of it. Now, what they're going to do with this and organic garbage waste and converting it into energy. project that's being funded through the climate action These developments are very heartening to people on fund will be to gasify this material. Vancouver Island because they're very concerned about What they do when they gasify it is basically break it the sustainability of energy, as mentioned by the speaker down to its elemental compounds. They can select, then, from Nelson-Creston. from an array of output materials. One of the ones that Certainly, all our people on Vancouver Island are probably is going to be most usable will be methane. very sensitive to environmental implications and are Methane is one of the worst greenhouse gases, as we all greatly heartened, I know, and will be supportive of know, and a common by-product of cattle and also of the many parts of this act that protect the environment, waste landfills. that require further and more extensive long-term en- The methane can be converted and added to gasoline, vironmental assessments that prohibit the development so we can have biodiesel or biogasoline. It can be taken of parks and conservancies. The people on Vancouver all the way to an energy source as well. Let's remember Island want it kept the way it is as a beautiful island. that this is all emissions-neutral because it all starts with [1745] naturally growing organic material, put in a digester and But that's only one of them. There are several others. comes out the other end. It can be burned directly, and There's an intriguing one near Ucluelet. This is done by steam can be created through turbines and, therefore, en- the PacificC oastal Wave Energy Corp. This is something hance the delivering power. So they have great potential. that people have talked about and said: "Why don't we Japanese investors have been looking at this technology use the energy from waves?" It's a complex and intricate and looking at it from two points of view, from divert- technology. You would think the energy is the wave hitting ing stuff into the landfill, because garbage is a worldwide something that would do it, but there are various ways problem, but also into power production. Chinese in- of collecting the energy. vestors, as I've mentioned, have looked at this technology. As the wave passes through, it can flip a series of It's unique in the world and shows great promise. turbines — or other methods. It takes a considerable I'm very encouraged that this holds hope not only for amount of waterfront, which is one of the concerns power production on Vancouver Island but perhaps for from an environmental point of view. the Lower Mainland and perhaps exporting it to all the Of course, it's absolutely endless in its supply poten- world. I'm sure that this will happen. tial. Anybody who has been to Ucluelet to experience 6148 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

the great storms out there and the waves and the surf always good to have them participate in the important coming in…. It's a regular surf rolling into Ucluelet, and discussions. if they're able to practically capture this energy, it's going Some of the other points I'll briefly talk about. Some to be a completely limitless supply, ongoing. In terms of of the ones seem minor, at first, but they have large im- sustainability, it gets no better than this, because it will pacts. A good part of how we're going to face our energy be limitless and perennial. needs in becoming self-sufficient is going to require The other one that people often talk about — and, again, conservation. I would comment that, again, the member I'm very proud that this is taking place on Vancouver for Juan de Fuca…. Island — is the Canoe Pass Tidal Energy Corp., another I'm going to talk about smart meters and how they small company near Campbell River. help us save power — and smart grids. If I don't mis- I think we can all recall or have heard about Ripple quote: "Cancel the $1 billion smart meter project and Rock, that great hazard in the middle of the straits near use the money to expand conservation programs and Campbell River that had to be blown up, and the con- control rate increases." Well, that wasn't the member tinual stories about loss of boats caught in the huge for Juan de Fuca. He specifically said: "In principle, that whirlpools and swirls as the tide ebbs and flows.B asically, sounds like a pretty good idea for grow ops." all the Gulf of Georgia — well, the land — If I don't quote you correctly, please stand up and cor- has to exit through that as the tide comes in and water rect me. I would be happy to hear that. Apparently, that comes in from the bay's north. They're immense, power- is what he said. He nods. ful currents. Now they're exploring how to harness that [1750] energy in a way that won't affect the environment, affect The smart meter program is certainly sympathetic to the fishery, but that can be used for power generation. our approach. This will give individuals the opportunities It's hoped that on Vancouver Island we'll be able to take to save energy within their own homes because they'll advantage of some of these power sources to alleviate be aware of how the meters work in a new digital format. the reliance we have — and more than just an inconven- They'll be able to log exactly how much different aspects ience to the residents of the Lower Mainland, who don't of their household, their utilities, cost in terms of energy. appreciate power lines going through their properties, We think, and I'm sure, that people are all sensitive to as we found out so acutely in the last election. energy wastage. Everybody in British Columbia is very These are just some of the things that I think affect sensitive to how wasting energy can waste our resources, Vancouver Island. We've got a couple of others that I'll and certainly, I think that these smart meters will be a mention that I honestly don't know as much about. great addition. The payback is tremendous. There's a solar photovoltaic and solar thermal project on a First Nations land. There's SyncWave Systems, another Interjection. ocean energy project in Tofino that, I understand, takes advantage of the tide differentials. Basically, it's a matter R. Cantelon: Well, certainly…. Let's put it to you this of having large semi-submersible devices that look like way. Now, this is a concept that I know is far beyond the oversized jellybeans that tilt, and when they tilt, they mathematical computations capable on the other side, move generators to produce power. but the net present value, what that's worth to us today, So there are lots of unique ways of producing power that is $500 million. Get those synapses working, Member for we're looking at. Of course, they're looking at a biodiesel Juan de Fuca: $500 million is what it's worth to us in cold, production facility in the capital regional district, I under- hard cash today, and that's a good chunk of money. stand, similar to what the Nanaimo regional district is. That's how we're going to have to do it.I t's going to have All of this has been encouraged. I think Bill 17, the Clean to be 66 percent through saving energy and giving people Energy Act, makes it not just an opportunity; it makes it the choices, the options, to monitor their own hydro, to an imperative. We're committing to energy targets that use power in an effective way. For example, flipping the will require all of our resources, all of our imagination, all dishwasher on at night is one of the many ways it will help of the new projects we can develop, as well as developing save power. I know that our citizens are going to be very the traditional systems of power generation. sensitive to it and be very effective in saving power. It's certainly a boon to the science and development The other part is the smart grid. Now, what is a smart of these scientific projects, the development of these grid? Basically, the traditional methods of hydroelectric new technologies, these new energies, that hold great power envision a large central dam or source of hydro hope for export of energy. power that goes through simple transmission lines to its end users. But now we're in a much more intricate Interjection. environment as we develop more diverse methods of generating power, some of which I've mentioned here. R. Cantelon: I think the synapses are going off on the Also, they have mentioned run-of-the-river projects. other opposite side again, and I'm glad to hear that. It's By the way, one of the most successful is on Vancouver Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6149

Island at China Creek. It has been expanded. It's a great These are issues of trust, and every time legislation partnership between First Nations and the power produ- comes before this House, we are asked to trust. We read cer, and they're expanding it and going to the next phase. the legislation. Its title is meant to reflect its content. Its It's done in a way that's very sympathetic, and no one contents are meant to be understandable when it comes is more sensitive to the effects on nature than our First to the intent and the plans of government, but can we Nations. trust this government? It's clear that British Columbians It's done in a way that, again, withdraws the power, can't trust this government. not the water. I don't know how they get confused about We can't even trust the government not to engage that — that it's withdrawn from the river and bottled in ridiculous names for their bills — the Clean Energy or something. It's not. The power or the energy is taken Act. This is an act that allows the entire province, the from the water, and the water returns to its stream bed. entire environment of this province, the entire river Of course, that's a very sensitive environment area for system to be turned into simply a generating station for salmon reproduction. Certainly, everything has to be Californian demand. That's what they've done, and they done consistent with maintaining and preserving the have the nerve to call it the Clean Energy Act. Ruin-of- salmon runs in the Alberni Inlet, and it is. That's ex- river projects were described by the former speaker as tremely important. Certainly, it wouldn't be going ahead something that "just removes the energy from the water without their endorsement. and then returns the water to the stream," but at what We have this variety, then, of diverse sources of power temperature, at what cost to the environment around and energy, and it's a different game than simply water that stream, at what cost to the fish-bearing streams of from the dam out to the user. The power, then, has to this province? be drawn from these many resources and channelled That's what British Columbians don't trust this gov- through a smart grid. A smart grid basically analyzes ernment to safeguard. They don't trust this government your power usage on a more detailed grid or detailed to safeguard the public interest, and what could be more pattern and puts the power where it's needed quickly, paramount to the public interests of British Columbia but it also will have people feeding power back in. than B.C. Hydro and that jewel it presents to us? Yes, we We were given the opportunity to consider, for ex- have dammed river systems. We have used that as the ample, when electric cars come. What we might do is jewel of storage, and with that storage, we were able to plug our cars in not to charge them at night but to have generate hard, consistent power for British Columbia their excess power bled off so that it can be used and and British Columbian corporations. sold in other areas. So the smart grid will enable us to We are able to trade on markets, where we buy low and most effectively use power where it's most effective and sell high, and thereby we don't dam more rivers than we also to sell power when the opportunity presents itself. need to. We meet our needs, and we even made, in the I think there are many, many benefits.I think this closes past, a huge profit in doing it, but this government wants and puts away some of the myths about selling B.C. Hydro. to change all that. This government not only wants to By law, that won't happen. In fact, the opposition mem- hand over the common wealth, the ownership of these bers will say: "So what." I will say: "Well, we made it into jewels to the private sector donors who supported their one big corporation, and there's only one shareholder." campaign, but they want us to pay for it. They want us I think we've committed to staying out of the parks. to pay for it. We've committed to more stringent environmental as- They want us to pay for it with higher rates. They sessments and moving forward to consider not only the want us to pay for it with a loss of oversight in the public immediate effects but the long-term effects.I 'm sure that interest. They want us to pay for it by giving away the de- when the synapses get moving on the other side of the termination of what should happen in our environment, House, they will certainly see the benefits and under- in our rivers, and it is a disgrace. It is a failure. It is a weak stand them for the benefit of all British Columbia. government that fails to protect the public interest, and this is a weak government. This is a weak government. D. Routley: It gives me some displeasure to have to Look into this bill. Look into the member from rise to oppose the Clean Energy Act, which is another Kamloops and his conscience as he endorses this strip- example of the failure of this government to act in the ping of the B.C. Utilities Commission, which British public interest of British Columbia. Columbians trusted would be there to guard their pub- [1755] lic interest and can trust that that will happen no more Let's look at the backdrop that this legislation is after this bill is passed. played against. This is a backdrop of a government who This government that promised non-interference introduced the HST after promising not to, who in the set up their ridiculous Coastal Ferry Act and the B.C. past has told such whoppers as "We won't sell B.C. Rail," Ferries corporation. They promised no interference, and "We won't tear up contracts" and "Look at the size of this then, when they needed a boost in the polls before the deficit — $495 million." What is it? It's $3.3 billion. election, they interfered and forced the corporation to 6150 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

lower its rates. Another example of a failed promise not quickly privatized. And we should trust this government to interfere. in their handling of our precious jewels, our river sys- This is the ultimate political interference, stripping the tem? We should trust them? British Columbians don't power of the B.C. Utilities Commission to properly guard trust them. the public interest. That is a disgrace, and that is another There's no review here. There's no democracy. The sign of a weak government — a weak government. costs, the public will underwrite. They will hand to their This parliament, this place and the people who are friends, their donors, the benefit of the storage in those honoured to sit here and represent their communities Crown jewel dams that will underwrite the soft power are meant to defend the public interest. That is our para- that's being produced, that's being bought at exorbitant mount responsibility. Because BCUC challenged the rates that aren't justified by their marketplace but only ridiculous plans of this government when it came to justified as payback to their donors. That's an abomina- their marketing of our power, our rivers and our com- tion of the public interest. That's what they're doing. mon wealth to their friends and actually stood in the Now the public bank account is tapped one more way of those plans last year when they denied their time — one more time. In the end we the people of B.C. power purchasing plans…. Well, this is retribution. This underwrite their ideological commitment to privatiza- is retribution for that act. tion, and we underwrite it through the loss of jobs, the You stand in the way of this government, and they will loss of environmental sustainability, the loss of our com- step on you. They will step on you. That's what this gov- mon wealth. That's a weak government that would do ernment has proven, and they prove it again here. that — a weak government. [1800] Marvin Schaffer, professor of public policy. You know, Even in the closure they bring to this bill, in stepping I think it's been well recorded and reported here, but I on process and not allowing continued debate on this just can't resist reading into the record his remarks. He bill…. That's what you're responsible for, Mr.K amloops. says: What about their grandiose language and lofty ideas "It is remarkable in the power it is putting into cabinet and around reconciliation with our First Nations? And yet the costs it is imposing on B.C. Hydro. It is the government's response to its concern that it won't be able to convince the B.C. we hear that there's no consultation. I've seen it in my Utilities Commission of the merits of the independent power constituency with the Halalt people — no consultation purchases, transmission extensions, smart meters and other on the use of their water. No consultation here. We have measures it wants B.C. Hydro to undertake and its concern that seen our First Nations line up to condemn this act. We've even B.C. Hydro might not eagerly go along with its plans. "One can only laugh at the media spin that the act is designed seen that. This government can't hear them because they to protect ratepayers and enrich taxpayers. The absence of any have been tarnished, they have been stained by the most independent oversight of almost all of what is required under toxic element in politics, that being arrogance. This is this act is bad public policy." an arrogant government. It doesn't need to listen to the To cap it off, we keep getting worse legislation, fol- people it represents. It knows better. lowed by the worst legislation. Marvin Schaffer says: "It We've just passed an election, and would the govern- is bad legislation. It has to be a frontrunner for the worst ment have had the guts to stand at the doorstep of their legislation of the decade." constituents and admit that they were going to impose Well, everyone who sits in this House is responsible the HST? Would they have admitted that they were go- to the public interest of this province, and they can sit ing to privatize the entire environment of this province? there and chuckle if they want because they have a few This is not just a government committed to free market more votes and they can pass acts like this that pass by idealism. This is a government that's trying to turn our the public interest and the interests of their constituents, society into a free market society where nothing in this but democracy has a remedy for that, my friend from province has value except in their marketplace. Peace country. This province was built on public interest. This prov- [1805] ince was built by people who cared, people who cared Democracy has a remedy for that, and it comes round about each other, people who cared about the well-being when people vote. The members are seeing a preview of of this province. Nobody before this government had that remedy in the initiative around the HST campaign. the arrogance and the raw confidence to stand up and They're seeing a preview in the recall campaigns that are say: "You know what? This is the best place in the world going to start because people are offended by this weak to live, work and play." government. You know what we used to say in this province? One of the chief myths that they rely on is the sustain- Beautiful British Columbia. We gave it back to the prov- ability myth: "Well, we don't produce all the power we ince. It wasn't about us. It was about the province. But use." Well, we do that to our own benefit. We don't have no more. No more. The colours of B.C. Rail — the two to dam as many rivers as we would have to if we lived up greens, the white, the yellow. Those were the colours to their sustainability myth. We buy power low. We buy of the dogwood leaf and flower — quickly converted, power low at night, store the water behind our dams and Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6151

then we generate power during the day and sell it back — firing of women in Canadian history. Only the cabinet clean power sold into the marketplace at a higher rate. could claim a $495 million deficit that they knew was bigger. That is what these members are responsible for. Interjection. They serve a cabinet that has failed to serve the people of B.C., and that is the ultimate failure in democracy. Deputy Speaker: Member, take your seat for a moment, Then they come forward with a billion-dollar plan for please. smart meters. Well, who are the energy gluttons in this The Chair is unable to hear the speaker who has the floor. province? The poor. The poor are the energy gluttons, because they can't afford to put double-paned windows D. Routley: Well, I guess I have to speak louder. I in their homes. They can't afford to insulate. They can't guess the people of B.C. will have to speak louder to be afford it as they meet the additional costs heaped on their heard by this government. I guess some 85 or 90 percent families, like MSP premium increases, HST and all the of the people rejecting their biggest plan for the economy other costs laden onto ordinary British Columbians by isn't enough for them to hear the people of B.C. I guess their weak government. They can't afford to retrofit and the parade of First Nations leaders who have condemned improve their lifestyles to reduce their consumption. this legislation isn't enough for this government to hear. [1810] You know why, Madam Speaker? It's because they're Who will benefit from smart meters? Well, it will be shouting down the people of B.C. too. They shout them the people with the most modern homes. It will be the down with closure. They shout them down by not calling people who can afford the most modern appliances. It this House to order, to session. They shout them down will be the people who don't need the help of this govern- by shutting down the process. They shout them down by ment. It will not be the people who need their help. It will shutting down BCUC. They shout them down by giving not be the average British Columbian who is left with the away their common wealth. They shout them down by burden of this government's failed policies of privatiza- not defending the broad public interest. A weak govern- tion — lost jobs, lost revenue, lost interests, lost common ment, a weak minister — that's what we have. wealth and lost process — that this member defends. So what could we do with that billion dollars? Imagine Deputy Speaker: Member, it is possible to oppose how many homes, how many low-income apartment without resorting to personal attack. I would ask you to buildings, how many public institutions could be retro- withdraw that last remark. fitted so that ordinary British Columbians can do their part and contribute to conservation of energy. But in- D. Routley: I withdraw that last remark. stead, according to the raw ideology of this government Our minister is acting in a weak manner. Our minis- that serves only its donors — only those people — they ter is weak in his defence of public interest. Our minister are the ones who have created this gap in our province may be strong himself, but his performance as a minis- between those who have and have not. This bill will ter is weak, atrocious and a failure in the public interest. make it worse. That's what we have. So this bill, this act like others from the B.C. Liberals, How will the people of B.C. be heard? How will the is designed not in the public interest but to satisfy the people of B.C. be heard when it comes to projects that demands of their supporters, those who have bought they don't approve of, when it comes to plans of this public policy in this province, who have bought the pub- government that they don't approve of? How will they lic interest or at least the interests of this government. be heard? Well, they can't be heard through BCUC, be- These are acts that fail our people. This is sad; this is a cause BCUC can't question the government. The people sad state. This is a province where, like nowhere else in of B.C. can't question their government. B.C. Hydro North America…. can't even question these plans. Not even the Liberal caucus member for Kamloops– Interjections. North Thompson who chirps behind me can question the plans of his government, because he's not a part of Deputy Speaker: Member, please take your seat. making those plans. This government is run from one Members, with all due respect, it is difficult to hear in office, the Premier's office, and this cabinet has taken this chamber with a commentary. So if everyone could upon itself the arrogance to dismiss all protections of come to order and lower the volume, I would appreciate the public interest — they know best — and that is the it. sign of a weak government. Member, please continue. Yes, only cabinet can decide, through this bill. Only cabinet can decide. Only cabinet could decide on the D. Routley: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the support, HST. Only cabinet could decide to sell B.C. Rail. Only but I also appreciate the chirping because it shows us cabinet could tear up HEU contracts — the largest mass that we're tapping into a vein where this government 6152 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

actually feels something. I mean, any ordinary human bookkeeping that this government is engaging in with being would have to feel ashamed of a record of broken their privatization plans has taken us further and fur- promises like this. ther into debt. Any person who went to the doorstep and asked those This government has failed our core industries. They seniors who they betrayed, asked those children who they are in disrepair, they are languishing, and that's bad eco- betrayed, asked the people of B.C. who they betrayed nomics. That's a weak government, a bad government for support the way they did in May would have to be that does not manage the public interest, which allows ashamed with the outcome. the economic fundamentals of this province to slide, al- I'm sure the members who are chirping here are all lows the wealth of our province to be given away. That's backbench members who weren't part of formulating what this government is responsible for. That's what the policies that they're now paying the political price they'll be remembered for, and the memory and the past for. The Premier and the cabinet who brought these ri- tense they will live in is coming along soon. diculous schemes to British Columbia — they're not the It's bad economics because it keeps unnecessary costs ones defending right now. It's those members who are and risks on the citizens of B.C. and on B.C. Hydro. It's going to have to pay the political price when democracy bad economics because, as John Calvert put it, this bill takes its remedy on them. That's what will happen. should be titled "Act to take B.C. citizens to the cleaners." Yes, Madam Speaker, the private sector has always That's what he said, and I agree with him. had an important role in harnessing the wealth of this The bill in its title,C lean Energy Act, excuses massive province in our forests, in our power sector, in our min- affronts to our environment. The environmental damage ing sector. The really important difference is that they that will be done by achieving their false, mythological were partners in providing public benefit at that time. sustainability goals will be irreversible. They had a role, and ultimately the people who were ex- Finally, at least this act unmasks their real agenda, pected to take the long-term equity stake benefit in our and their real agenda is to become an exporter of energy resources were the people of B.C. at the expense of our environment and the expense of This act is another step that strips us of our citizen- the public interest. That's the bottom line. That's what ship, the value of our citizenship. By taking the benefits they're on about. of our natural resources and our province and handing You know, this Clean Energy Act from a B.C. Liberal them off to corporations that could be good partners in government that actively promotes lifting the morator- these endeavours but, once given the ownership and all ium on offshore drilling, from a B.C. Liberal Energy the benefit, take it away from our province…. That is a Minister who will not stand in this House and commit remedy for disaster. to British Columbians that they will not lift the morator- ium…. We're supposed to trust the title of this bill from T. Lake: Evil corporations. that government. I think not. [1815] Now that we've unmasked that agenda, we have some significant questions that need to be asked and D. Routley: Oh no, Member from Kamloops North, answered. Is this what British Columbians want? Did not evil corporations. The corporations meant to make anyone ask British Columbians? To turn over our entire profit. When you have a government that fails to act in river system, our entire environment, and turn it into the public interest…. a generating station for their private donors — is that what people want? It's a question that has never been Deputy Speaker: Member. asked. These are questions never asked, much less an- swered by the voters of this province. D. Routley: Through the Chair. When you have a The next question that needs to be asked is: doB ritish government that fails to act in the public interest and Columbians want the capacity of their province, once guarantee that some of the benefit flows back to British harvested, to benefit only large corporations? These are Columbians, then you have the weak government that corporations that we expect to partner with to bring that member is so desperately defending — defending benefit to British Columbia, but this weak government the indefensible. that fails to protect public interest is ready to hand over I mean, look at the condemnation by the public of this the entire benefit, common wealth and equity stake in government. In the end, this is more bad B.C. Liberal eco- our province to them. nomics, just like their forest policies. This is bad economics Is that what we want? I don't think so. I think you because it's bad for the future of the province. It's bad be- could ask a grade 6 student. Are You Smarter Than a 5th cause it takes away revenue from the province. It takes away Grader? I don't think this government would qualify for equity of citizenship from the people of the province. that quiz show, because you know what? Any grade 5 That's bad policy, that's bad economics, and that's why student would answer that question: "No, I don't want our debt has doubled. That's why the off-balance-sheet you to hand off the future equity of my citizenship, and Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6153

I don't want you to give away the benefits of my lovely Hon. B. Penner: I rise in support of Bill 17 and would province to your friends." How about that? I think pretty like to add my comments to this debate. much anyone would answer that way. First, before I address the substantive issues represented [1820] in the bill, I feel it's important to correct the record and set Let's go back to the 2001 new era of hope document. a few people's minds at ease, because I have received some You know, I guess we could look to the core of the in- e-mails in the past hour, following comments from the tentions of the government. They said: "You shouldn't member for Nelson-Creston. I want to clarify for the rec- have to pay higher than necessary electricity or auto in- ord that although we were all entertained by her recounting surance rates because government wants to play politics of various dating experiences, we were relieved on our side with B.C. Hydro or ICBC. You should be confident that of the House, at least, that she stopped in her description government will protect your interests." at kissing and didn't provide any further details than that. Well, I mean…. It's not a joke, really. It's not a joke. It I do want to correct the impression, though, that can make you chuckle, but it's one of those sad, bitter- some people had, based on her comments, that I drive sweet things — isn't it? Even in terms of opposition a Hummer. In fact, I drive a hybrid. I can also confirm, politics, we stand on this side of the House enjoying a not just for members in the House or people who are circumstance where that government is plummeting in watching but also to my wife, that I've never dated the the polls. It's lost its trust, its credibility. But you know MLA for Nelson-Creston. And unlike her, while I'm what? We're not celebrating that, because what's good in fond of wildlife such as the yellow-bellied marmot that's those political terms is a tragedy for this province — a currently residing at the Empress hotel a few steps from tragedy. That's what we're seeing in this act — the play- the front of the Legislature, I've never kissed a toad. I ing out of a tragedy. just want to make sure that's clear on the record, unlike What's really happened in B.C., and what's really at the member for Nelson-Creston. stake? What's really happened is we've liquidated the [1825] common wealth. We've given away assets for less than Now, just to respond briefly to some of the remarks they're worth to friends and insiders of government. from the last speaker from the NDP, and that's the We have sacrificed the future potential of this province. member for Nanaimo–North Cowichan. He made some That's what's happened. comments about someone being weak. I can tell you What's at stake? The most beautiful province, the most that it's obvious from his remarks that it's the member beautiful place — not a boasting claim on it but some- for Nanaimo–North Cowichan who is rather weak in thing that we pay back to it, a service. It is our beautiful terms of his memory and understanding of energy and British Columbia, and it's up for sale with this government. the history here in British Columbia. And you know what? To buy yourself into that marketplace, Just to help the member, perhaps, with a little bit of you have to be one of their friends, one of their donors, history, I picked up a book from the Legislative Library one of their supporters. That is the ultimate betrayal of called W.A.C. Bennett and the Rise of British Columbia, this province. written by a former member of this Legislature, David J. What should be happening? Well, we should in this Mitchell, who details, to some extent, power politics in House be recommitting ourselves to acting in the public British Columbia in the late 1950s and 1960s. interest. That's our sole purpose: to act in the public in- I think the member would be interested to hear about terest. We should — with every sentence that's read in how the NDP opposition…. I'll quote here from page 313. this House, every motion that's debated, every public This is during the spring session of 1962: "Opposition dollar that's spent in this province — reconnect the MLAs were outraged, and the strange spectacle of so- people of B.C. to their common wealth. But that's not cialist politicians defending the rights of B.C. Electric what's happening under a weak government that instead shareholders was the feature of an eight-hour debate on is liquidating that common wealth, giving away the March 23." That's merely to remind the members of the equity of B.C. That's a tragedy. opposition that their party opposed a previous govern- So let's be honest, Mr. Premier. Let's be honest, B.C. ment of this day, led by W.A.C. Bennett, and a previous Liberal members. Put your agenda of privatization, not just Premier, in his attempts to establish B.C. Hydro and to of the assets but of the values of B.C., against our agenda. build the legacy that today we are all proud of. Our agenda is to protect the public interest. Our Even members of the opposition today now like to agenda is to act with integrity to bring sustainability to hide behind B.C. Hydro and pretend that somehow they this province — sustainable public interest, sustainable have always been supporters of that Crown utility and justice, sustainable economy, sustainable environmental public ownership of power generation assets in British interests — to take care of the people we are charged Columbia — the W.A.C. Bennett dam, the Peace Canyon to represent. That equals justice. And that equals failure dam and the Columbia River dam system that's owned, and weakness in government. This side equals a recom- operated and managed by B.C. Hydro for the benefit of mitment to public interest, and we can't quit. all ratepayers in the province of British Columbia. 6154 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

As it's clearly documented in a fairly exhaustive treatise Well, I'll tell you how big it is. This project thatI 'm about on the history of W.A.C. Bennett, the NDP opposition to refer to is so big that the NDP themselves referred to engaged in a filibuster and were opposing efforts by the it yesterday in their news release. governments of that era to establish the kind of B.C. [1830] Hydro that we have today and that we're proud of. I want to share with members of this House why it's So that's a little bit of a trip down memory lane for the so important that they be really suspicious about the member for Nanaimo–North Cowichan, because I think numbers that the NDP puts out, because we know they it's important to remember where you came from if you have difficulties with math, and they can often be very want to have a hope of getting to where you want to go. wrong and misleading. Similarly, in the vein of providing a bit of a historical According to the backgrounder in their news re- account of how energy policy is developed in British lease yesterday, they said that the single biggest place Columbia, I've heard members of the opposition decry- where dollars go as a result of power projects in British ing the suggestion of a 40-year water licence for a new Columbia is Australia. When you peel that back, $142 project that's going to help fund the development of the million is accounted for by Rio Tinto Alcan — $142 mil- northwest power line in the northwest part of British lion. So let's think about it. What is significant aboutR io Columbia, to open up new renewable energy opportun- Tinto Alcan? They operate a very large hydroelectric ities and job opportunities for the Tahltan First Nation. project — I believe it's 700 to 800 megawatts of installed Interesting to hear that the NDP here is opposed to hydroelectric capacity — near , my birthplace. what the Tahltan are hoping to see happen, but maybe And who was it, Madam Speaker? Which government we shouldn't be surprised, given some of their previous gave that international corporate corporation — which, positions that certainly hurt the NDP during the last according to the NDP, is sending $142 million to Australia election campaign. — a water licence with no end date? Now, if anybody has This particular project will result in taxpayers not been following the debate, you can probably guess which having to front the costs of more than $100 million of party in here might have done that. investment into this particular project, and that 40-year It was in 1997, and I have for members opposite…. water licence, under the changes we made to the Water The member forN elson-Creston may need to be provided Act in 2003, stands in stark contrast to the kind of water with a copy of this. I'd be happy to do so. It's signed by licences that the NDP themselves gave out when they a former NDP minister, Paul Ramsey, who was then the were in government. minister responsible for the Industrial Development Act. I want to give you, perhaps, the most dramatic example. He signed a water licence that says as follows: I'll give you a number of independent power project ex- "Alcan Aluminum Ltd. of Montreal, Quebec, is hereby author- amples, all of which I've been to, by the way, including ized to store, divert and use water and to construct, maintain one in Boston Bar, Scuzzy Creek. That was a project that and operate works…. (a) The sources of water supply are the above Grand Canyon and all the streams and was given a water licence by the NDP in 1992, without lakes tributary thereto. (b) The points of storage, diversion and any end date on that water licence. use, and the extent of the , are approximately They did the same thing for the Soo River 14-megawatt as shown on the plan marked exhibit A which is attached hereto power plant in 1992, near Whistler. They did it for the and forms part hereof." Akolkolex hydro plant, a 10-megawatt project in Revelstoke. Then it goes on to say in paragraph (j)…. This is rel- I know the member for Columbia River–Revelstoke evant to the concerns we heard from the opposition about likes to pretend here, publically, that he's opposed to giving away water rights. Here I quote again from the these kinds of projects, but there's a project right in his water licence signed by an NDP government of the day: own riding that the NDP government of the day gave a "At no time will this licence be cancelled, nor the quantity of water that the licensee is authorized to store, divert and use be water licence to in perpetuity — no end date — unlike reduced below the quantity set forth in this licence, except in what we now require, due to changes that our govern- the case of default by Alcan in the performance of its obligations ment made to the Water Act in 2003. There's also the under sections 5 and 6 under the 1950 agreement as amended." Mamquam project. I heard some members saying: "How big are these Interjection. projects?" This was a project that the NDP government of the day approved, gave a water licence without any Hon. B. Penner: Hon. Chair, I was here in the end date — so in perpetuity gave them the opportunity, a Legislature when that happened, but I was on the op- private company, to use that water to produce 50-mega- position side of the House. It was the NDP government watts of electricity at a project near Squamish called the of the day that gave Alcan a permanent water licence. Mamquam River power project. Madam Speaker, you may think there are a few examples Interjection. and that maybe some of those projects aren't as big as others. Well, there's a very, very big project — 1997. Deputy Speaker: Member. Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6155

Excuse me, Minister. Interjections. Columbia River–Revelstoke. Continue. Deputy Speaker: Members. Minister. Hon. B. Penner: You'd think that the member for Columbia River–Revelstoke, commentary is through Columbia River–Revelstoke, as a former member of the the Chair only, and you do not currently have the floor. teaching profession, would have more than a passing in- terest in history. Hon. B. Penner: This employee I was talking to told So we have on the record books the NDP of the day me what a positive development it was for him to have opposing W.A.C. Bennett and his efforts to establish the employment this close to home, instead of as a trades- legacy that we now have in the form of B.C. Hydro. A man having to leave, often for months at a time, to earn a few decades later we have the NDP government — when wage and support his family that lives in Revelstoke. they were in office, sadly, in 1997 — giving a water This was a project that was approved not by the NDP licence in perpetuity to what's probably the largest in- government of the day; it was approved by a B.C. Liberal dependent power producer, private power producer in government. It was one of the projects that I as Minister British Columbia. That's Alcan, 700 or 800 megawatts of of Environment had the distinct pleasure and honour to installed capacity. They do so, and it states clearly: A" t no approve after completing an environmental assessment time will this licence be cancelled." review of the proposal to expand the Revelstoke dam by That stands in stark contrast to the changes that we adding a fifth generation unit. made in 2003 to the Water Act. Again, I just think it's I just want to quote here for the members a bit more important to bring members back to some sense of con- information about that project, which was approved in text when they make the comments that they do, which June of 2007. "The Revelstoke 5 power project involved are clearly not based in the history of British Columbia increasing the capacity of the Revelstoke dam, which or the reality of what's taking place. was completed in 1984, from 1,980 megawatts to 2,480." That's a 500-megawatt increase that our government ap- There are a number of projects I'm particularly inter- proved and that B.C. Hydro went ahead with and is now ested in that are specifically identified in Bill 17. Now, I in the process of completing. know that the NDP say they're voting against this bill, so In fact, I understand that testing and commissioning I assume that means they're voting against these par- should be completed by this fall, so that fifth turbine ticular projects. But if the members have taken the time unit will be on line but not before having generated 285 to read this bill…. Its substantive portions are 26 pages person-years of employment for tradespeople and 79 long, and there are another 11 pages or so of consequen- person-years of employment for engineers and man- tial amendments. agers over the three-year construction period. That is a If you go to section 7, it lists specific projects. The very positive development. member for Columbia River–Revelstoke should, I think, For people who are interested in the general health support this bill and if not the bill then certainly these of the government, generally speaking, for example, it sections, because it specifically mentions projects in his will help the provincial government with our revenues riding that are benefiting his constituents not in the future by providing $2.5 million annually and additional water but right now with good-paying unionized jobs that are rental remissions to the province of British Columbia supporting that community and supporting families in to help us fund all the good social programs that we've the riding that he's supposed to represent, instead of come to rely on. So the member is correct that that is a representing the party line. project that's already been approved — and it's nearing [1835] completion — but it has resulted in significant benefits. I'll give you some examples, Madam Speaker. Section The other projects thatI just referred to in section 7 of 7(1)(b) specifically refers to "MicaU nits 5 and 6, a project this bill have not yet started construction, but they have to install two additional turbines and related works and been subject to an environmental assessment review. equipment at Mica" and "(c) Revelstoke Unit 6, a project I can advise members that it was in April of this year to install an additional turbine and related works and that I again had the pleasure and the honour to sign off on equipment at Revelstoke." an environmental assessment certificate, along with my Those are very substantial projects. In fact, not that colleague the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum long ago I had a chance to go to the Revelstoke dam, and Resources, to approve the project after it went through I talked to some of the workers who are working on the an environmental assessment office review to add units project. In fact, they work and live in Revelstoke. The 5 and 6 to the Mica dam, which is located upstream of worker I was talking to at the gate was telling me how the Revelstoke dam. delighted he was that for this past winter, instead of having Now, this particular expansion will take it from 1,805 to leave town…. megawatts of installed capacity to 2,805 megawatts of 6156 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

installed capacity — a 1,000-megawatt increase. As a re- politically convenient for us to oppose that too." And the porter for the Vancouver Sun immediately noted: "It will best example of that is their outright opposition to Site C. make it B.C.'s largest facility in terms of installed mega- Here is a project that would be again owned, oper- watt capacity, bigger installed capacity than the W.A.C. ated and managed by B.C. Hydro, but their position is: Bennett dam." "We're against it." Now, that wasn't always their position. This is a project that we think makes sense. It's about I know the Leader of the Opposition, a couple of years building on B.C. Hydro's heritage assets, because these before the election, said — I think it was on Voice of B.C. projects are of course owned, operated and managed by — that "sometimes we take a position on issues before an B.C. Hydro. election," when asked about what her position was on As these projects go ahead as I expect they will, be- Site C. So she didn't come out right then and say they're cause I hope that a majority of the members of the actually against it, but now, after the election, we hear Legislature will support Bill 17 — certainly the members that they are against Site C. on our side of the House think it's worth building our Our position is clear that it should be subject to a capacity in British Columbia — these projects will pro- thorough environmental assessment review and First vide continued and additional employment benefits for Nations consultation. That is a commitment that our people in British Columbia and specifically in the riding government will maintain. Bill 17 provides for that. that is supposed to be represented by the member for It's already been noted, by the way, that this bill before Columbia River–Revelstoke. the House increases the environmental review process Let me be a bit more specific about what those bene- by providing for consideration of cumulative environ- fits are going to be. The capital cost of expanding the mental effects. That's something I used to hear that the Mica dam is estimated to be between $900 million and members of the opposition wanted, and yet here today, $1.3 billion. That's a significant capital investment. it's in a bill. They have a chance to vote in favour, and [1840] they're against it. Those projects are expected to provide 821 person- I hear from them they're going to vote against Bill 17, years of employment over a four-year construction which would include consideration of cumulative en- period. Again, the community closest to the Mica dam vironmental impacts, and the NDP is against that too. I is Revelstoke. While the project that's now wrapping guess, following the last election campaign, when they up there in terms of the Revelstoke 5 addition has pro- said they were against putting a tax on carbon emissions, vided significant benefits to that community over the I shouldn't be too surprised. But I am still disappointed last couple of years by generating 285 person-years of that they would run against a price on emissions for employment, this project will create almost four times the atmosphere out of a sense of political convenience, that amount of employment over the four years of hoping to garner public support. construction. We saw that their effort to do that failed, and I think That is a big boost to the local economy, and it's it's because the public had a general sense that they just exactly why I would expect the local MLA who should weren't getting a real consistent thought pattern from be representing the workers that want the jobs in this the members of the opposition. community to support Bill 17 instead of saying he's go- I know we've got the Energy critic from the NDP oppos- ing to vote against Bill 17. It does dismay me when I hear ition saying that in his mind, I think he said…. Let me get members of the opposition say no. the quote. "The notion that we need to be self-sufficient in Like in the last election, they wanted a moratorium electrons seems to run hollow in my mind," according to on independent power projects, including wind power the member for Juan de Fuca, stated on February 1, 2007. projects. When we ask them, "Well, what's the alterna- Perhaps it does explain a few things about how they think tive?" they say: "Well, B.C. Hydro." But then when we about energy policy, if it's hollow in their mind. come up with B.C. Hydro projects…. And by the way, I would have thought that a party that purports to rep- the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources resent the little guy, the working people, would appreciate points out that we have spent, as a government, far more a policy that says we should be self-sufficient in energy expanding B.C. Hydro's owned and operated capacity because it puts people to work in British Columbia. If for than the NDP ever did in ten years in office. They're a moment they now — after their ten years in office in against that too. the 1990s when they supported independent power pro- By voting against Bill 17 and the specific projects jects — have come to a conclusion that while maybe that enumerated in section 7, they're putting a lie to those was a mistake on their part and they would rather just comments that they support B.C. Hydro expansion as have public investment, why wouldn't they at least then opposed to a moratorium on independent power produ- support public investment in power projects in British cers, because we know that you can't have it both ways. Columbia to make us self-sufficient so we could gener- You can't say you support B.C. Hydro, but then when B.C. ate jobs at home while producing renewable energy? Hydro goes to build extra projects, they say: "Well, it's [1845] Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6157

But they're against that too, and I think it speaks vol- Hon. B. Penner: …must be scrutinized, and certainly umes about the lack of internal consistency on that side not every project gets approved, hon. Speaker, as you of the House. Ultimately, the responsibility for that lack know. In fact, if you look at the record over the last eight of internal cohesion rests with the leader. years, more water licences have been withdrawn or re- The Leader of the Opposition has not been able to set jected by proponents than have been approved, by a a tone for the members of her caucus and critics to follow ratio of about 2 to 1. — one of intellectual consistency. On the one hand, they That's because not every project will meet our standards. say, "We would support projects if they were public," but People are entitled to apply, but that doesn't mean they then, when projects come along that are public, they're will be approved. People are entitled to take a chance in against that too. They say they would like to see cumu- the private sector. It doesn't mean they're going to get lative environmental impacts considered, but then they approved, but if they can meet our standards, then they say they're going to vote against that too. They say that do have an opportunity to move forward. they would really support renewable energy projects, On the one hand, we have the member for Columbia but they come out in the election campaign and say they River–Revelstoke saying that…. want a moratorium on renewable energy projects, in- cluding wind power projects. Interjections. Ultimately, the responsibility for that lack of internal cohesion or coherent thought process does rest with the Deputy Speaker: Excuse me. Members, I need to leader of the NDP opposition, who has not been able to remind you again that it is possible to oppose without bring her caucus around to some kind of position that resorting to personal attack. might make sense. A further manifestation of that lack of internal co- Hon. B. Penner: We have the member for Alberni– hesion and discipline, I dare say, is when you have Pacific Rim who actually — I think it was during or just members of the opposition saying here, in front of their a week before the election officially started — stated leader and their colleagues, how much they oppose in reference to the Canoe Creek run-of-river project: private power development and then quietly, from the "There may be a benefit to this plan, and I applaud the sanctuary of their constituency office, write letters to the First Nation for taking charge of this project. It could proponents of private power projects saying that they give them the lead as true stewards of the land, and it actually support them. sounds very innovative." Of course, April 8, 2009. The member from Revelstoke obviously knows what Then, of course, there was the NDP candidate for I'm about to say, because he's getting defensive already. Prince George–Valemount, Julie Carew, who was kind But he wrote a letter, and I'll quote from it, saying: "I'm enough to inform members of the Prince George pleased to add my support to the Remote Structures Inc. Chamber of Commerce at the candidates forum on run-of-river hydro projects at David Thompson Falls April 24, 2009: "While I think we need to make it very and Cedar Creek." So not one project, but two. clear that the NDP does support IPPs…." He gives the following as an answer to why he would I know there's considerable confusion on the oppos- support those two independent power projects in his ition side of the House. On the one hand, they say that riding. Why? I'll quote directly from the member's let- they would like to support renewable energy projects, ter, because I couldn't have said it any better myself. He but to this date, I am not aware of them ever having sup- says: "Adding clean, green power will contribute to the ported a single one. I have not heard them come forward growth of the local economy. It will also help B.C. Hydro and publicly — publicly — say that they support a single achieve its goal of having the most economic and en- wind power project in British Columbia. vironmentally friendly resource acquisition program in [1850] North America in the next five years." If somebody could show me the record, I would love I couldn't have said it any better. Now, it doesn't mean to be corrected, but to this date, they have not supported that every project doesn't first need to be assessed accord- wind power. In fact, the member for Juan de Fuca, the ing to its potential environmental impacts. That's why, Energy critic, continually derides a wind power project before any water licence would be issued for projects such in the northeast because it's a startup company — as as these, as many as 50 different approvals and permits if people shouldn't be given the opportunity to be a would be required from as many as 14 different govern- success. ment agencies, federal and provincial. Every project… I think that in itself says a lot about the NDP op- position and, frankly, their approach when they were Interjections. government that businesses should not have a chance to be a success, individuals should not have a chance to Deputy Speaker: Members. Members, I need to be succeed even where they can meet environmental stan- able to hear the member who has the floor. dards and other tests that the government puts in terms 6158 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

of approving projects. It is something that continues to On Vote 11: ministry operations, $29,905,000 (con- be a mystery for me. tinued).

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.] The Chair: Good afternoon, and welcome to the Douglas Fir Room. We're doing the budget committee I know that my time, unfortunately, is drawing near estimates on the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and to an end, but there's one other thing that needs to be Reconciliation, treaty and other agreements funding. mentioned in reference to Bill 17. It's not just that B.C.'s objective is to generate at least 93 percent of energy in B. Simpson: I just want to sort of set out what the British Columbia from clean or renewable resources and agenda for the day might look like for the minister and that that's put into the legislation through this act, or that appropriate staff. we're going to be working to reduce our greenhouse gas On Monday we started canvassing treaty, and I do emissions. want to go back to that. But I think in order to get there, I should note here, as I wrap up, that Bill 17 will enshrine I want to do a little bit of work around the current status in law B.C.'s historic two-river policy by prohibiting future of the new relationship and where we're at with the large-scale hydroelectric storage dams on all river systems transformative change accord, because that's a broader in British Columbia, such as the system. context for treaty; then get back into treaty; eventually I know that not everybody shares the view. Some move towards the ministry's actual service plan budget people think we should be pursuing more large-scale — implications of the broader budget; and then the min- hydro dams on other rivers, and perhaps in the future istry's role relative to other ministries and their strategic some future parliament or future legislature may decide objectives. to revisit that. But I think that is the right policy choice. That's the flow. At about 4:30 I've asked our MLAs…. It's the right thing to put into legislation, and it's again Part of the process, of course, is that individual MLAs one of the reasons why I will be supporting Bill 17. often have questions pertaining to their own riding and, in this case, First Nations questions. At that time, Hon. B. Penner moved adjournment of debate. around 4:30, we will be canvassing urban aboriginal issues. A couple of our MLAs that deal with that more Motion approved. directly will be coming in at that time, so we'll address that then. Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported I'd like to start off with something that is a very resolutions, was granted leave to sit again. timely and pertinent issue and to turn the floor over to a colleague. Hon. B. Penner moved adjournment of the House. S. Fraser: Hello to the minister and his staff, and Motion approved. thanks for being here. It's déjà vu. I've had the pleasure of working with some of you before, so thanks. Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 10 [1445] a.m. tomorrow morning. I want to thank the minister, first off. This week he acknowledged the tragedy that happened with the plane The House adjourned at 6:53 p.m. crash, Atleo River Air, just off Ahousat. Ahousat lost three young people on their way home, and a pilot died too. His service will be on Friday. I would like to ac- PROCEEDINGS IN THE knowledge the minister's acknowledgment of that. DOUGLAS FIR ROOM I have a bit of a correction that it's actually within my constituency and not in North Island, so just north of Committee of Supply Tofino. With that in mind, the first question to the minister ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF is: can he let us know if he is providing any resources ABORIGINAL RELATIONS to help deal with the tragedy that's rippling through the AND RECONCILIATION community in Ahousat? (continued) Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for correcting The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); H. me. I'm not quite sure why I thought North Island in Bloy in the chair. that case, but thank you. In terms of the tragedy and the fallout of the tragedy, The committee met at 2:43 p.m. we have a senior official from the ministry on scene Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6159

there. He is certainly looking at any way that we can I would note, however, that our ministry is involved in support the work that has been undertaken by the Nuu- what has been not only a very important but also a very chah-nulth Tribal Council in the form of counselling successful program. One of the communities where the and other services that would support the community first work is being done is Ahousat, and that program is through the difficult situation that exists now. Ahp-cii-uk. It is an aboriginal leadership initiative. It is a The funding for this work, of course, comes from the program which has partnerships that extend not only to the federal government. The work is being provided on the First Nation, in this case the Ahousaht, but also Ministry Ahousaht reserve, but we're certainly prepared to sup- of Aboriginal Relations, Health Canada and others come port that, and we have an official there who is trying to together in an aboriginal leadership initiative. identify any way that we can assist. One of the issues that really benefits from the work of Ahp-cii-uk is suicide. Suicide in some First Nations S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for the answer. I ap- has been a very challenging and very persistent issue; in preciate the official being on site there. It's important, I others, less so. think, for the province to be there, so I thank the min- I know that Dr. Perry Kendall, the provincial health of- ister again. ficer, has done some important work in this area.I don't There are a lot of resources that…. Well, not a lot, pretend to be an expert on that, but I know that there but there have been resources that have been brought is considerable variation among First Nations commun- to bear in Ahousat before this minister's portfolio — a ities in terms of suicide rates. Socioeconomic conditions previous minister I worked with. There was a flurry of are not always a determinant of whether suicide rates suicide attempts in Ahousat — not unique to Ahousat. might be high or low, so it's a complex issue. We see this from time to time, often with very isolated [1455] communities that have gone through very tough eco- For the purposes of our discussion here, though, I nomic times, the never-ending aftermath of residential would again just point out that Ahp-cii-uk has been very school systems, and that sort of thing. valuable in building community capacity. It is working There were resources put in place there for mental in Ahousat. It centres on a community development ap- health workers and such. In my discussions with Chief proach and on building capacity in the community to Frank after a protocol-signing a couple of months ago manage issues. in Ahousat, he indicated that those resources seem to As the member knows — and he hasn't referenced be stopping. it yet, but I'm sure he knows very well about this — Now, the issues around suicide are cyclical, I would substance dependencies have been a big, big issue in submit. I'm not an expert, but from what I've seen, that Ahousat. It has been a controversial issue to the extent comes and goes. Incidents like what happened now, that some of the needs and some of the important steps where we see three relatively young people in this very to address substance dependency have attracted some tightly knit community losing their lives, can often trig- newspaper headlines provincially. ger those sorts of things again. It's a huge issue too, and again, we believe that Ahp- Can the minister comment, please? First of all, I'm not cii-uk will be very, very useful, through this integrated sure what resources have been removed as far as mental partnership, at trying to get at some of the root causes health assistance in dealing with things like youth sui- which lead to substance dependencies and other path- cides and suicides on reserve. ologies in communities. [1450] S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that.A hp-cii-uk Hon. G. Abbott: I should introduce early on the very — Ahousat is a good venue for that. Leadership is a part capable staff who have joined me today for these esti- of the history of Ahousat. As you know, Chief Shawn mates. They include: behind me at the moment, Deputy Atleo is the head of the Assembly of First Nations na- Minister Bob de Faye; to my immediate left, Julian Paine, tionally now, the highest office for First Nations. That's assistant deputy minister; on my immediate right, Steve from Ahousat, so we see that this would be a good fit, I Munro, assistant deputy minister; Arlene Paton, assist- believe. I thank the minister for that. ant deputy minister; Dave Hoadley, executive director; I must say that the Minister of Health…. I didn't…. and Michael Lord, director of finance. They're all here That estimate has finished. On the previous times, then, to assist today. I'll go back to Minister Christensen, who's no longer a To the member's questions, we're not aware of any sitting MLA but was a previous minister when I first cuts to resources for health-based issues. You might well began. I dealt specifically through this ministry to try to be asking the wrong ministry, because we don't provide get assistance to Ahousat when that was necessary, so I those. Those, I expect, would come through the health came here assuming something similar. authority. The Minister ofH ealth might be the person to First question. I am wondering if I can still maybe canvass with respect to that. work through it with the ministry and the minister here 6160 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

to try to address the needs as they show up. You know, if That having been said, whatC anada and British Columbia we see the spectre of that loss of hope that looks like have committed to and First Nations leadership has commit- we're getting to another rash of suicide attempts, and ted to through the tripartite health plan is to find ways that there were…. I can't even recall the number in one year. we can work better among all of those jurisdictions. There were like 50 or something attempts that were There's important work underway today and has been documented. important work underway now for at least, probably, three It was a huge strain on the community, and the great years in respect of trying to break down some of those silos resource work, the people that were working there in try- between federal government, provincial government and ing to bring the assistance — the mental health people First Nations governments in terms of delivery of health care. locally in Ahousat — desperately needed the assistance Nonetheless, at this point in time the constitutional that came from the previous time that I came to the responsibilities and the funding programs tend to move ministry. I want to compliment Minister Christensen on from the federal government through the Nuu-chah- that too, because he did stickhandle resources getting up nulth Tribal Council to the band government or directly there. He understood the issues so well, and I know that from INAC to the band government. It depends on the the minister does too. He's spoken on this. area of responsibility — whether the First Nations and I'd like to have some assurances that I might have the Inuit health branch is involved or whether it's INAC, minister's support, if necessary. I'm trying to make sure depending on the program. that those resources are there, should they be necessary Again, I want to reiterate that the province — and I in Ahousat. That'll be a question. know that former Minister Christensen was very good I'll move right into…. The minister was prescient, about this point — is always prepared to work with the and the issue around substance abuse is a problem. It's federal government and to work with First Nations gov- also a symptom of desperation and loss of hope, and it's ernment. If there is a role that we can play in terms of often concurrent with suicide attempts, I would suggest improving the social and economic characteristics of a too. The minister is right that it has got press because First Nation, we're glad to do it. the Ahousat people and the leadership — Chief Frank Again, the Ahp-cii-uk program, which we discussed just and council and hereditary chiefs — all have stood as a little bit earlier here, is an example of that. Nevertheless, one and tried to wrestle with that problem in an isolated the basic constitutional responsibility and funding re- community with very few resources. sponsibility for the programs the member references As the minister knows, this is the second time they've continue to reside with the federal government. taken the bold step of identifying people with problems on reserve and moving them to get treatment at the north S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that, andI 'll refer end of , and I applaud them for that. I to Jordan's principle. As the minister knows, a couple was there for the first round that happened a couple of years ago the Premier recognized Jordan's principle. I years ago. There was a return to the beach of the people am not bragging here, but prior to that — certainly that participated in that program, and it was a moving under Minister Christensen's watch — in this House, experience. There were canoes that came in from afar actually in estimates, I raised Jordan's principle. with these people that had substance problems, and they Of course, Jordan's principle highlights, just in a came back very much better people for it. thumbnail analysis, the jurisdictional problems, the gaps There's a cost associated with that, and that's being that happen between the federal and provincial author- borne by a First Nation, largely, that does not have the ity. In this case, with Jordan's principle, it was children resources to deal with it. I'd just like to get the com- on reserve that were falling through those gaps. I know ments from the minister on that. I'm seeking help here that the minister knows that, and the staff are nodding. for the people of Ahousat to offset some of those costs. I stood in this House, and Minister Christensen al- They're real issues, and they do not have the resources lowed me to read into the record a main excerpt from to address that. Jordan's principle so that it would be on the record of [1500] Hansard. I did the same with the late Stan Hagan, the former Minister of Children and Families, to try to Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for raising the make sure that that was understood here. important question. I guess, where to begin, though. I believe that there is a gap here. I understand the con- I think that the member is familiar with the funda- stitutional responsibility federally on reserve. However, mental constitutional division of responsibilities with there is a big problem with that, whether it's mental respect to these matters in Canada. That is, on-reserve health issues, whether it's housing issues. If there's a issues are the purview and constitutional responsibility failure at the federal level, in many cases I believe that of the federal government. First Nations off reserve are there's an ethic and moral responsibility for the province, generally a provincial responsibility, and that's the gen- but in many cases the cost of that federal failure, if that's eral division. what it is, lands on the province. Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6161

If it's mouldy housing, it's increased childhood I think the Premier of British Columbia was the first asthma. There are diseases and children put at risk be- in Canada to both embrace Jordan's principle and to cause of a federal failure, arguably, and that cost is borne persuade his colleagues nationally that that was import- by the province through increased health care costs. ant. I think it's also important to note that while it may That might continue for the whole lifetime of that child, not be directly related to it, the tripartite health plan is who becomes an adult. So I would submit that there's a hugely important part of trying to address the core an argument here that the issue dealing with substance issues around Jordan's principle. That is, we shouldn't abuse…. have these distinct silos, where this is federal, this is As the minister knows, the Ahousaht moved the provincial, and this is First Nations. people that were having the problems off reserve. So We should be seeing how those different funding streams, if we're going to be technical about whether it's on re- how those different program streams can be delivered as serve or off reserve, the treatment is happening within cost-effectively as possible but also as efficaciously as pos- traditional territory, arguably, but not on reserve. It is a sible — that is, with the greatest effectiveness. health issue; therefore, it is a provincial responsibility. I think the member was asking: do we fund the sub- There are cost savings to be had, too, for policing and stance abuse program of the Ahousaht? I'm not sure that court costs. Some of those fall on the province too. I we've ever been asked to fund the substance abuse pro- know that the minister is aware of this, and I'm not tell- gram of the Ahousaht. I suspect that the funding for that ing him anything new, but I just want to suggest that flows through the First Nations and Inuit health branch we shouldn't — and the minister has alluded to this — and into either the Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council or to silo these issues by who is responsible jurisdictionally, the Ahousaht First Nation and is achieved there. provincially or federally, because there's a big grey area That having been said, the province stands willing and there. able to sit down and talk about how we can make these [1505] programs work better. I'm like the member; I'm an admirer I think there's a danger in assuming that the feds are of what the Ahousaht leadership have done in respect of doing something and, if they don't, us standing back their substance abuse program. I'm very respectful — in provincially. I don't think is acceptable. I don't think fact, admiring — of the way in which they have tried to that it's acceptable to the minister and his staff, and it's connect their substance abuse treatment program with not acceptable to myself as the MLA for an area that has their culture and heritage, in terms of trying to connect to deal with that. some of the troubled drug users with their heritage and Having that on the record, I wouldn't mind a com- getting perhaps a better understanding through that. So ment from the minister if he wishes. But if Chief Frank I'm very much admiring of that. needs to meet with the minister and/or his senior staff I am happy to tell the member that now, one year into to try to address some of the key issues here, you know, this role as Minister of Aboriginal Relations, I have been regardless of the Ahp-cii-uk work…. I mean, if there able to maintain an open door policy — even for op- are grave necessities in Ahousat due to this tragedy or position members — through all of that year. Certainly, dealing with the substance abuse issues, can I rely on if Chief Frank wanted to meet, I'd be delighted to meet the minister to have an open door policy if requested by him. We always try to accommodate any First Nation Chief Frank or the leadership of the Ahousaht? leader or community that wants to meet. [1510] Hon. G. Abbott: I agree with much of what the member has had to say but not all of it, and perhaps it's S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that.I will make important to try to correct a couple of points. one comment. While I appreciate the Premier's position Jordan's principle relates back to a very unfortunate on Jordan's principle, I believe — just a clarification — incident that occurred in the province of Manitoba that it was first raised in the federal parliament by MP probably four or five years ago now, where a young ab- Jean Crowder in a private member's bill. I believe it was original boy was denied service at a hospital. I think that roundly supported by all members of the House feder- as a consequence of that, he died. It was a tragedy. ally, too, which is a good sign. I'm not meaning this in What it highlighted for federal and provincial govern- any…. But I just want to give some credit where credit's ments and for federal and provincial services was the due there too. importance…. There should be, from the client perspective, Thank you to the minister. I will pass this on to the a seamlessness in federal and provincial programs so leadership in Ahousat and to Chief Frank, and also, of that if people needed a health service or another service, course, I will recognize your thoughtful words around it would be available to them, regardless of what their the tragedy that occurred with this plane crash. residence might be — on reserve or off reserve — or what So a final turn on this. Moving out of Ahousat, going their status might be in terms of status Indian or non- north to the north end of Clayoquot Sound, is Hesquiaht status Indian. territory. The open door policy the minister's talking 6162 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

about…. I'm going to probe just quickly. There was the I guess the first thing to say is that it is challenging at unjust execution of Anayitzaschist. As the minister knows, this juncture; 1869 is now — what? — about 150 years we probed this before. Katkeena and Anayitzaschist were ago. Much has changed in the culture of the judiciary in a very gunboat-type of justice — were taken away from since 1869. As a pre-Confederation period, I guess, the the Hesquiaht village, the Homais community there, in governance of British Columbia, of course, has changed 1869 and were subsequently executed due to a kangaroo much over the time as well. court decision. [1515] Now, I know the minister had staff working on this. We've attempted to work with the available historical I've come back and forth to the minister. I've met with documents in British Columbia to see if any of that helped him personally, and I agree with the open door policy. us understand. There were some newspaper accounts He was happy to see me. and other accounts that are of limited assistance. In I'm still waiting, and I know that the family members, some respects the newspaper accounts of the day tended the descendants of Anayitzaschist, are anxious. This to reflect the biases and prejudices of the day and, hence, is not a political issue. It's not involving so much the weren't always terribly helpful in terms of trying to get a leadership or at all the leadership. This is a family issue, value-free account of what occurred there. the descendants of, you know, a chief that represents…. One of the things that we have done to try to get a It's an issue that represents a grave injustice to the people better understanding of this is to canvass the United of Hesquiaht and certainly to the family members. Kingdom National Archives and, in particular, to look Again, we're trying to get some form of reconciliation at the British Admiralty information, look at the court on this. Again, we're not trying to rewrite history, but records from the day and try to pull all that together to we've got more information. We have learned that the see if there are any conclusions that we could appropriately very family involved and the community involved were form from that material. rewarded and acknowledged by the then President of As an amateur historian, this is fascinating. Someone the United States for helping to try to, you know, recover should do a…. Maybe someone has done a book on it; bodies from shipwrecks before, in a respectful way, and I'm not sure. I don't think there has been one. so I think there's enough evidence to try to bring some closure to this, which would go a long way in healing Interjection. a very dark part of our history, certainly for the family anyway. Hon. G. Abbott: It has been done? So if the minister could just update on this. I'm mindful of time and thankful to the critic for allowing me this time. S. Fraser: No. It's being done. If the minister could please give me some edification. Hon. G. Abbott: It is being done. Darn. Hon. G. Abbott: I'll do my best. I want to thank the member for raising this important issue with me. I know S. Fraser: It's not over yet. it's a very important issue for the family, and I certainly would share the member's aspiration that hopefully we Hon. G. Abbott: Oh, it's not over yet. Oh, we're still can find some understanding around this that would bring writing the ending. some satisfaction or closure to the family on this incident. That having been said, that's proven to be quite chal- The Chair: I'm sure you'd like to include me in this lenging. The member, I think, raised this important discussion, so we'll make all comments through the issue in last year's estimates. We had some limited work Chair, please. underway at that point, and there's been much more work undertaken since that time on this issue as well. Hon. G. Abbott: Yes, you're absolutely right, and that For the history buffs that are watching today, this is would be a sad chapter were we to abuse the House rules referred to sometimes as the John Bright incident — in- and have that become one of the principal themes of the volved a shipwreck and questions about whether some historical analysis before us. of the apparent survivors of the shipwreck were or were There's been much analytical work done around that not murdered. Were they assisted? Were they murdered? material that's been assembled from Britain and else- As the member indicated in his question, there's much where. Some materials now have been shared with the — well, actually, I shouldn't say much has been said. Chief of the Hesquiaht, who wants to have an oppor- Actually, very little has been said about this historically. tunity to review the materials, discuss it with the family There have been some comments, but this is not…. I — that sort of thing. We do want to respect that. wasn't familiar with this issue until the member raised it, I'll be glad to, you know, at some point work with the and I've been around a fair bit of British Columbia Chief, work with the member and work with others to history. think about how we share this with the public as well. I Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6163

mean, obviously, it is of principal concern to the family, are the repository of this story. It is a valid story and but it's also, I'm sure, of interest to all British Columbians should be considered and respected, I think, as part of and does offer a kind of window into the way in which the deliberations or the work you're doing to try to un- these issues were managed militarily, judicially and so cover the truth of this dark part of our history. on in 1869. It's a fascinating story. Again, I thank the With that, I will sit down, but I wouldn't mind if the member for raising the issue with me. minister has any comment to make.

S. Fraser: Hon. Chair, I apologize for engaging in a Hon. G. Abbott: I'd say, first of all, that one doesn't side comment with the minister without the respect for need to go very far back nor have to reach back very the Chair. Sorry about that. often to find many examples of historical injustices to Thanks to the minister. Just in closing here, I've dealt aboriginal people in British Columbia and in Canada — with your predecessor on the same issue. I appreciate the whether it's denying First Nations the opportunity for progress that's happening, even though it seems like it's pre-emption, which my great-grandparents on both glacial in speed. I understand the difficulties involved. sides of my family made good use of; the imposition of I would suggest…. No one is trying to prejudge his- the Indian Act, which has had over a century of adverse tory here. I mean, 20-20 hindsight on how the judiciary consequences, I would say, to First Nations people; or worked then and how the policing system worked back back to the employment exclusion and licence exclusion in the 1800s…. You don't want to go back and try to of First Nations. judge that from this point of view here. There is a wonderful book called Makuk — I should That being said, it wasn't that long ago that First be getting a royalty on this, because I've been advocating Nations were denied the vote in this country. It wasn't so often that people read it — by Prof. John Lutz at the that long ago that the residential school travesty was oc- University of Victoria. It's a fabulous book, called Makuk. curring in this province. It was 1980-something before Again, as an amateur historian or a political historian, the native veterans were allowed to lay a wreath at the I am very, very impressed by the book. It is a remark- cenotaph on Remembrance Day. able account and done, I think, in a very thoughtful and We don't have to go back and judge the people of the evidence-based way. time, but we can acknowledge that injustice happened There are many, many examples of historical wrongs. when, say, there was no translator available, there was I'm not in a position to conclude whether this situation no…. The due justice that we see now in the judiciary with the Hesquiaht in 1869 was. It may be. It would be, — we recognize that it has evolved, but we can look back again…. I guess there's something called historical rela- and say that at that point in time there were things that tivism. It's difficult to take an incident that occurred should have happened and that didn't happen, based on 150 years ago and try to, necessarily, layer all of what our knowledge now. we have come to expect from the Charter of Rights and Then in closing on that, I would suggest that the other issues onto that. minister and his staff are missing one key piece of this We're doing our best to try to understand the situa- investigation, which I find fascinating too. As I said ear- tion. If there's something we can learn from it, apart lier, there is a documentary being worked on, on this, from it being a sort of fascinating, small chapter in and the closing chapter will be, hopefully, reconciliation British Columbia's history, I think we should do that. or some acknowledgment of what happened in the past In terms of the family, though, I understand that there and some closure to this dark chapter. is a discussion ongoing, last week and this week, with a [1520] family elder around how they're wishing to manage this The resource that's not being utilized is the family. document and this record. We do, first and foremost, Now, it's Nuu-chah-nulth tradition we have passed down. want to be respectful of the family and its wishes. We're There's no written language, historically, from Ahousaht going to be guided by that, as I mentioned in my earlier or from Nuu-chah-nulth. It is passed down from elder to response. youngster. It's done orally, and it's done through song. I witnessed the song as sung by family members and their B. Simpson: I appreciate the member's questions representatives, Nuu-chah-nulth representatives, at the here. I want to get into some of the details of what's in pole-raising in Tofino, probably four years ago now. the minister's purview, but a couple of quick comments. I would just submit: please, do not overlook that. The The minister's comments about historical relativism courts recognize oral history. This is a piece of the puz- I take, but if you look at something like the Chilcotin zle. TheA dmiralty, the judiciary in Victoria…. The stuff wars, where a war is a war is a war, regardless of where it you're doing now would not be complete without meet- occurs…. Again, we haven't redressed the issue of hang- ing with the family. ing as common criminals chiefs who thought they were I appreciate the protocol, going through the Chief, engaged in a war. Sometimes those historical injustices and I agree with that. However, the family themselves remain injustices and need redress. 6164 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

A couple of comments. One, I do want to take what The Métis Nation B.C. have always been very keen the minister has indicated about his open door policy partners in terms of the aboriginal human resources and put it on the record that I have found that to be true, development agreement with the federal government. not only to the minister but to his staff. I appreciate the They've been exceptional partners there, and they con- pre-briefings we've had. I appreciate the briefings I've tinue to be so. I know that they're doing some work in had on things like the reconciliation act, etc. and around Abbotsford on some additional training op- That is very much appreciated. It is, I agree with the portunities, so we very much welcome that and look minister, how this place needs to work for all of us to be forward to continuing our work with the Métis Nation able to understand, especially an important file and a B.C. on that. complicated file like this. In terms of the specific relationship, I'll reference — [1525] perhaps I can send over to the member, if he'd wish, but The second is a comment I made to the minister when he could probably pick it up on line as well — a docu- I came in, and I do want it on the public record. While the ment entitled New Relationships with Aboriginal People minister is surrounded by staff,I get surrounded by paper. in Communities in B.C.: Annual Report on Progress, That's by way of stating that if I ask any questions out of 2008-2009. That would provide information with re- ignorance, I ask forgiveness of the First Nations folks, and spect to the relationship with the Métis. I ask the minister to be gentle in his answers. I've done my [1530] best to try to find out, and we've had some good help from staff in our basement offices, but sometimes we won't B. Simpson: I do have that document, but I wasn't clear have found documents that I may be asking for, whether that the Métis were rolled into general reporting out on the they exist or not. We're actually going to start off with that. new relationship in total. That's fair that that's the case. I wanted to make sure that that's on the record. In the case of the Métis Nation relationship accord, as I want to start with the new relationship in the general it's called…. Again, it was between the president of Métis sense and try to get an understanding of where the new Nation British Columbia and the Minister of Aboriginal relationship is, but we often fail to fully represent the Relations and signed in 2006. I have an unsigned version Métis as part of our First Nations dialogue. I would like here, but I'm assuming it was signed. The statement was to actually start, before we get into the general new rela- that a Métis Nation relationship accord secretariat would tionship, with the Métis new relationship accord and ask be established to review the progress, etc., and that there the minister if he could give a quick update. would be a meeting of the parties once a year to make I did try to find whether or not there was an official sure that progress was being made. Did that secretariat or formal update of the accord. It was, from what I can come into existence, and if so, where is it funded? How find, signed in 2006, and I'm just curious. Maybe we'll much does it take to maintain that secretariat? start there. Does the ministry do formal updates of this accord as they have attempted to do for the new rela- Hon. G. Abbott: The MétisN ation B.C. receives annual tionship and for the transformative change accord? funding from the province of British Columbia. We know they receive annual funding from the federal government Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member, first of all, as well, but they do receive annual funding for their core for his kind comments about my office and the staff at organization and core programs, core operations that are Aboriginal Relations. I appreciate the member's kind sustained through Métis Nation B.C. There isn't a separ- comments in respect of that. ate secretariat. This area is relatively small and probably wouldn't merit an independent organization. We do that [S. Cadieux in the chair.] work jointly through their core operations.

Also, I want to thank the member for raising the B. Simpson: But the accord does stipulate: "To sup- issue of the Métis Nation in B.C., because that's some- port this relationship, the parties to the agreement" times something that gets overlooked in our discussions — which I presume to be the Métis Nation relationship of aboriginal relations — the Métis Nation of British accord between the Métis Nation and the province of Columbia. British Columbia…. It states that they "will each appoint I've been very fortunate to have a wonderful rela- two senior officials. These officials shall constitute the tionship with Grand Chief Bruce Dumont and with the Métis Nation relationship accord secretariat. The secre- Métis Nation B.C. I attended their annual general meet- tariat's primary role will be to review the progress of the ing in Penticton last year. It was very good. Even back to Métis Nation relationship accord." Did that specific sec- the time when I had Aboriginal Services responsibility retariat come into existence? in the early 2000s, the Métis Nation B.C. were always leaders. I'm sorry; I should have said President Dumont, Hon. G. Abbott: The technical work that the member not Grand Chief. Forgive me for that. references through the accord is undertaken through Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6165

four officials. They include Arlene Paton, who is the — the principal interest, concern of Métis Nation B.C. official immediately on my right, along with Mariann has been around the areas of economic development Burka, who is an executive director within the Ministry and skills training or education. So those have been the of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation. principal areas which we've worked on jointly. They meet with the executive director from the Métis Nation B.C. and their chief operating officer. In addi- B. Simpson: Partly what I'm trying to understand is tion to those technical-level meetings, we have regular the nature of the relationship that government has when meetings between the deputy minister, Bob de Faye, and it engages in these kinds of relationships or accords or Arlene Paton, the assistant deputy minister. They meet whatever and whether or not they truly end up becom- with President Dumont and his executive. Of course, I ing formalized and inform the work that the government have the opportunity and the honour to, on occasion, does, or whether they end up being a statement of a kind meet with President Dumont as well. of a set of principles, and then you continue either busi- [1535] ness as usual or on a priority basis. I guess the minister has indicated that, really, the ac- B. Simpson: Thank you for that clarification. cord is there, but the work is going on, on a priority basis The other aspect of the actual accord states: "Once a year as articulated by the Métis. The accord actually states: the parties will make best efforts to convene a meeting be- "health — community, family, individual; housing; edu- tween the president of the Métis Nation British Columbia cation — lifelong learning; economic opportunities; and the province of British Columbia as represented by collaborative renewal of Métis tripartite processes; Métis the Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation." identification and data collection." By my count, there have been at least…. If you don't count Of course, the minister has indicated that there are the signing year, there are, then, four years. two that have floated to the top, and that, strategically, I understand that the minister has indicated that there that's what's being worked on. So fair enough. are meetings that are ongoing, but this suggests to me that Just before I get into the broader new relationship con- it's a very specific meeting, to sit down and say, "Where text and the transformative change accord, I have been are we at with the accord? How is it working?" etc. Do looking for a more current update. The most recent up- those formal meetings actually occur? If so, is the con- date I have seen is '08-09, which the minister has referenced. tent of the meetings captured in the public domain? I'm wondering when the '09-10 might be published.

Hon. G. Abbott: Yes, the meetings do occur. I'm not Hon. G. Abbott: The staff anticipate in July of 2010. sure that they have the level of formality associated with [1540] them that one might anticipate from the formal charac- ter of the accord, but they are invariably instructive and B. Simpson: I want to spend a little bit of time trying valuable to all of the parties. to understand where we are at in the broader context of a new relationship with First Nations. I ask the minister's B. Simpson: But are they duly documented? Is the forbearance, because I want to set the context. I know information…? Technically, they're supposed to sit and both of us have a propensity to kind of wax — not neces- look at the accord and track progress on the accord. I sarily eloquently — on, I guess. But I think it's important, just did another quick scan of the document that was because I need to know — and I think it's important for referred to, with respect to the new relationship. While the public record — that there is a foundational under- it names the Métis Nation accord, it doesn't actually standing of what it is we're talking about here. explicitly report out on the accord. So I'm just curious The New Relationship is an actual document that whether or not that's a public dialogue that occurs and captured the essence of a relationship and how the gov- whether the public are aware of how this is progressing. ernment wanted to further its relationship with First Nations. There's a statement of vision, and I want to get Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member again for his into some of the details later on, but the statement of question. When we get together with Métis Nation vision…. I want to pull out a couple of things. It said: B.C., generally it is to talk about those issues which are "We agree to a new government-to-government relation- of principal concern to Métis Nation B.C. In short, we ship based on respect, recognition and accommodation basically let them set the agenda in terms of what issues of aboriginal title and rights." So a government-to- they wish to talk about. government relationship. There is, further to the member's question, a strategic "We agree to establish processes and institutions for plan which has been developed by Métis Nation B.C. in shared decision-making about the land and resources" — conjunction with the province of British Columbia. That and then a critical component of this is revenue- and having been said, much of the focus — at least during the benefit-sharing — "recognizing, as has been determined in one year that I've been Minister of Aboriginal Relations court decisions, the right of aboriginal title in its full form." 6166 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

That statement is very important because, as we've discussion around the province with, in the end, prob- seen in other court rulings, the court system has indi- ably dozens of First Nations communities and regions cated that both Canada and B.C. often bring what's and so on to talk about the content or potential content called an impoverished view of aboriginal title to their of the proposed R-and-R legislation. negotiations. The discussion, asI understand it from news accounts The statement of vision actually states that aboriginal and other accounts that we've received of the First title will be recognized "in its full form, including the inher- Nations consultation…. Much of the concern of the ent right for the community to make decisions as to the First Nations communities and band leaders and so on use of land" — again, vital for our forthcoming discus- tended to focus around the reconstitution of First sion — "including the inherent right for the community Nations in the province into what was termed in the to make decisions as to the use of the land and, therefore, document "indigenous nations." I think there was gen- the right to have a political structure for making those erally a map associated with that, containing plus or decisions and is constitutionally guaranteed by section 35." minus 32 indigenous nations which were thought to re- Then it goes on to say, as the transformative change flect the historical composition of First Nations. accord also says, that this is really attempting to address I think what the leaders heard as they consulted the continued rise in the "socioeconomic disparity be- around British Columbia was that if there was going to tween First Nations and British Columbians." Madam be any aggregation of First Nations in the province, they Chair, that is one of the reasons that this ministry exists: would self-aggregate. They were not about to accept to address that concern on behalf of government, to act the aggregation model that was proposed in the map as a leader for that on behalf of government. that was appended to the statement of the agreement. Having put that in context, I want to then bring it They made it very clear that they believed that the First forward to the spring of 2009. We canvassed this some- Nations leadership had gone too far in terms of assum- what last fall, but we couldn't really address this issue, ing that there was support for the aggregation proposed because it was definitely in flux. That's the issue of the in R and R. government projecting forward that they were going All of the opposition that was reflected during that to effectively formalize the new relationship, if you will, consultation, I think, came to a head in late August at a in a deeper way, through the proposed recognition and meeting of all of the chiefs or many of the chiefs of reconciliation act. British Columbia, and I'm sure many councillors came I just want to read a section from the spring 2009, pre- together in North Vancouver to talk about that. They election throne speech which stated: "This government made it very clear at that point that no further work is working with First Nations to develop a recognition should be done on the reconciliation and recognition and reconciliation act that will establish a new statutory act, that they were withdrawing their support from that, framework to further the implementation of the new that they no longer wished to proceed with that work. relationship." As you know, just to continue the sequence forward As I said, the reason this is coming up now is because from there, they also resolved to create an All Chiefs in the fall we really couldn't canvass that. I think we were Task Force, which would look at the future of the First getting together in late August or early September, and it Nations Leadership Council or whatever sort of amal- was definitely in flux. What is the minister or the prov- gam of First Nations leadership they would think ince of British Columbia's understanding of the status of appropriate for the future. that proposed legislation? We're still awaiting that. I think there may be a report, actually, later this month on that work being done by Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for his question the All Chiefs Task Force, probably at the First Nations and thank him for the kind of introduction to this, be- Summit meeting, but I'm sure there will be discussion cause I think it's a fair starting point. of it at the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs meeting, as well, Back in the spring of 2009 there was much work being I think, a little later this summer. That's a piece that's done around a proposed reconciliation and recognition still in progress, and I think, like many things in our re- act. There was some work undertaken with respect to lationship, there's never a sort of terminus point. These that. The work was being undertaken, largely, jointly things continue to evolve. between the government of British Columbia and the But to step back, from the government's perspective legal counsel for the government and legal counsel for we had some decisions to make post–R and R about how the First Nations leadership groups. There was consider- to manage our future relationship with First Nations in able work done. the province. What I recommended to cabinet and what [1545] we resolved was that we would remain consistent with As the member will recall, in the period after the May the principles in the new relationship agreement, remain 2009 election, the First Nations leadership group under- true to the principles which were enunciated in R and took, I thought, a very good and quite comprehensive R, but attempt to do agreements with First Nations in Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6167 whatever corner of British Columbia — doing it, from I would disagree with the minister's assessment of what the First Nations perspective, on a self-identifying, self- I understood…. The First Nations, as they have indi- aggregating basis. cated to me, were trying to achieve with both the new Further to that, one of our priorities was to attempt relationship stimulated by the government and with the to reach agreement with the Haida people on Haida recognition and reconciliation act a broader context Gwaii. As the member knows — as he has engaged in for all parties to agree on a set of principles. Whether some thoughtful debate on this in the House previously they ended up self-identifying or self-aggregating, as — in December we were able to achieve and sign a recon- the minister put it, at least they were all operating on a ciliation protocol with the Haida First Nation, and that broader set of principles. contains many elements. The new relationship was supposed to infuse treaty It's a document of some 40 to 50 pages, I think, that and non-treaty. It was supposed to recognize govern- includes, among other things, some economic elements ment to government, lay out some kind of criteria for but importantly includes…. Again, we debated this in revenue-sharing, shared decision-making, independent the House, so I won't go into it in detail. decision-making with respect to resources. So there was [1550] a broader context here. The member probably knows more about that par- While I agree with the minister that part of the de- ticular model than he'd care to remember every day, but railing of the R-and-R act was this reconstituting of the there is a model in there of a management council which bands, there was also the aspect of who spoke for First oversees a decision-making matrix, etc., as there is in Nations and the issue of the leadership council. The min- the northern coastal reconciliation protocol, which in- ister's answer basically says: "Look…." If I understand it volves, again, another self-identifying, self-aggregating correctly, and I want to paraphrase, as far as the govern- group of First Nations who have come together to reach ment is concerned, the First Nations have said: "Pull it a reconciliation protocol with the government. off the table." It's off the table. Needless to say, the signing of the Haida reconciliation The government is going to continue to do business protocol and the northern coastal reconciliation proto- with First Nations and look for things, as the minister col has attracted much attention among First Nations indicated — the Haida reconciliation agreement, the across the province, so we are in discussions with a var- mid-coast, other interim agreements, incremental treat- iety of, again, self-identifying and self-aggregating First ies, etc. The minister andI have had significant dialogue Nations about potential reconciliation protocols among around that, both in terms of bills in the House and pri- their peoples. vate conversations. We have also engaged with agreements that are a little But what I want to try and focus on is the status of the less intensive than a reconciliation protocol but, never- new relationship, because even the Auditor General at theless, a very substantial achievement as well. As an the time indicated that the new relationship was prob- example, the strategic engagement agreement with the lematic because it was ill-defined. Nanwakolas group of First Nations on the southern and [1555] central coast of Vancouver Island and the mainland. There was a new relationship business council that That, again, contains a decision-making matrix simi- came together and made, actually, a significant num- lar to the northern coastal decision-making matrix. So it ber of recommendations to the government on trying to pulls together a lot of the pieces that were involved in R make sure that the new relationship didn't interfere with and R but does it on a basis that is self-aggregating and business occurring. My sense, as I go around and talk to self-identifying. I think that's hugely important in terms people, is that what the new relationship did is it pulled of the success of this. expectations among First Nations up to a very high level. In the future, for example, with the Ktunaxa in the Now, because of its status and questions about its status, southeast corner of British Columbia, or the Gitanyow, First Nations aren't sure where they're at. or the Tahltan or the Gitxsan, if we want to work with I want to get into some of the specifics, but let me ask First Nations in whatever aggregated form that they be- the minister the question this way. There were claims lieve is appropriate, I think that's the best way to proceed that because the recognition and reconciliation act died, in the future. it actually derailed the new relationship. Those were The member was absolutely right about us waxing on, statements that were made at the time. Is it the minister's and so I'll try to have the wax fuse for a moment as we sense that the new relationship in that broader context hear another thoughtful question from the opposition ended up getting derailed as a result of the failure of the critic. proposed act?

B. Simpson: Compounding our capacity to wax on Hon. G. Abbott: No, that wasn't my sense at all. I'm is that, of course, it is a complicated issue. I think we do not sure who the member may be quoting from in terms need to get to the heart of this because, I guess, where of it potentially being derailed, but I certainly wouldn't 6168 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

have been among those who would have expressed that rowing of those unacceptable gaps. That's important on view, because I don't share that view. I would disagree the shared decision-making. with that view and disagree very fundamentally. Shared revenue is one of the ways that we will get First of all, in the new relationship agreement, the there. Again, shared revenue sounds like an interest- principles are a kind of aspirational, visionary view of ing concept when it's stated baldy. What we've tried to how relationships should be conducted between First do, and this has gone on long before I was ever Minister Nations and the government of British Columbia. of Aboriginal Relations…. While I had my head down I mentioned earlier some of the unfortunate elements preoccupied with the business of the Ministry of Health, that have existed historically between First Nations and others were working on economic benefit agreements for governments in British Columbia. Particularly in that the oil and gas sector, for example, up in the northeast. period between the 19th and 20th centuries we had, on We've had now, for several years, economic benefit either side of that, many, many adverse aspects in the agreements with Treaty 8 First Nations about how they way in which First Nations were treated by the province would get some share of the oil and gas revenue of the of British Columbia. province. We've seen in recent years, as well, the forest I think that what we're attempting to do in a new and range agreements between First Nations and the relationship is to give expression to a different way of province. governments working with First Nations. As an example, We have seen work undertaken very recently between there's the reference to the respectful government-to- First Nations and the government and industry in respect government relationship that should exist between First of mining, in respect of independent power projects and Nations and government. the like. The latter two are very recent.I n fact, we're just I think that remains the case today. In all of the things on the cusp of seeing some of those economic and com- that we do as a ministry with the many First Nations munity development agreements between First Nations, bands and tribal councils and so on that exist in the the government and industry. There have certainly been province, we always try to manage those issues on a re- agreements between industry and First Nations, but in spectful basis. Just as we would be respectful with the those two areas, the inclusion of government in that is government of Canada or the government of Alberta, we more recent. are respectful to the First Nation we are working with. Those are all exciting things, because I think they As well, on the issue of decision-making or shared make a difference in the lives of First Nations. decision-making, one of the real challenges of the pro- A final point — because I think this is an area where posed recognition and reconciliation act was attempting I feel particularly strongly and particularly passionately to define, with statutory precision, exactly what was about how we close the gaps — is around education and meant by shared decision-making or joint decision- skills training. I think school boards and post-secondary making or other expressions that might follow. institutions across the province are doing great work One of the things that we have very much wanted to these years in terms of reaching out and welcoming First do — and I think have found expression in the Haida Nations students. reconciliation protocol, in the northern coastal reconcili- There are many, many more First Nations students at ation protocol, in the Nanwakolas strategic engagement colleges and universities today than there ever were 15 agreement — is to create a framework or a matrix, as or 20 or 25 years ago, when I used to teach. It was rare we call it, for that kind of decision-making that ensures to see an aboriginal student in a post-secondary polit- that we continue to reach decisions in an effective and ical science class, at least. Today? Okanagan College is timely way but that we also devote appropriate attention just one example. It has over 800 aboriginal students. It's to the issues that are of abiding concern to First Nations amazing. Camosun College has a comparable number — in those land-based decisions. So that continues. I think close to 800 aboriginal students. [1600] There's lots of great stuff, but I think that is an area In fact, I believe that it's evolving in a very construct- that we need to continue to build on, and build on in ive way that will, again, go to the purpose for all of this partnership with First Nations. It is through education — which I think the member himself acknowledged early and skills training, I think, that some of the other indi- on — which is to try to begin to narrow that unfortunate ces of social and economic health start to improve. and unacceptable gap that exists among a whole range of social and economic elements between First Nations B. Simpson: I always state everything baldly. It's not communities and non–First Nations communities in by choice, though. The minister gets the choice every the province of British Columbia, whether it's in health, once in a while to say something baldly. education, social services, representation in the crim- To the minister's question of me as to who is saying inal justice system, diabetes. that it may be derailed, let me put the following forward. There's a whole range of areas where, if we are to be a Grand Chief Ed John, after the reconciliation act's fail- truly just society, we need to, over time, see some nar- ure, indicated — and I'm quoting from a statement that Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6169

he made to the press: "We haven't seen the new rela- Just to finish my thought about the throne speech…. tionship being implemented. It's nice to have all these The interesting aspect of the throne speech is that it does commitments, but people want to see the action, con- talk about new revenue-sharing opportunities, the Yale crete examples. We shouldn't have to go to the courts to final agreement, the Queen Charlottes being renamed prove our rights and title." , etc., but then immediately goes into the Then, of course, Grand Chief Stewart Phillip indicated one-project, one-process commitment by the govern- — again, I'm quoting him from what he stated publicly — ment, which the minister must know inflamed First that he was "deeply embarrassed and bitterly disappointed Nations' concerns about running roughshod over their by the lack of progress made over the last four years." rights as governments, over their territorial claims. In [1605] fact, the First Nations Energy and Mining Council came The only other individual who is missing from the out with a counter-proposal on how to do environ- leadership council, of course, was involved in his own mental assessments, etc. elections, Chief Shawn Atleo, as he was moving from The juxtaposition of the loss of the capitalized New the regional Assembly of First Nations to become na- Relationship with the one project, one process gave — tional chief, so he did not go on the public record about what's been articulated to me — First Nations the sense his thoughts. that the broader framework is gone, and we're now back The other reason I raise it is that in the throne speech to trying to drive business as usual. "We'll see you in in the fall of 2009…. And I challenge anybody to go do court." That's language that's been articulated to me. that, to just simply put "new relationship" in the search So to get to a question in that…. The reason I'm ask- on the PDF version of that. It doesn't exist in that throne ing that…. The minister has already alluded to it, but I speech. It wasn't mentioned in the fall of 2009. wanted to get clarity. The New Relationship was an actual The only mention that it has in the spring of 2010 is document. It has some deliverables, some principles, etc. actually a non-capitalized statement, "Your government The transformative change accord is an actual document. is working hard to build a new relationship with First That one was signed. It was signed by the leadership Nations," but this time "new relationship" is not capital- council. In fact, it says, and for the public record: "The ized. It's as if the formality of the government's attempt to transformative change accord between the government continue to work the new relationship has disappeared. of British Columbia and the government of Canada and The transformative change accord, which I'm going to the leadership council representing the First Nations of speak to shortly here, is also not mentioned. British Columbia." Interestingly enough, however, the comments about Now, I'm curious if the minister can tell us who now First Nations and the need to have reconciliation pro- represents First Nations, because it is a relationship cesses…. And I accept the minister's statement about between First Nations and the government. The trans- finding ways to have revenue-sharing, finding ways to be formative change accord is a tripartite relationship. able to engage First Nations in business arrangements, in- Where does the government understand we're at with cremental treaties, etc. I take that. I'm not disputing that. respect to First Nations representation on these broader But again, we are talking about the whole intent of framework agreements? the new relationship, the transformative change accord. [1610] To do that at a much higher level, to provide a frame- work at a much higher level, because a lot of the one-off Hon. G. Abbott: I'll kind of start at the beginning of was evolving anyway, a sense of frustration among First the comments the member made and hopefully move Nations who were either in or out of the treaty pro- reasonably expeditiously through them. cess, changes in leadership, a more business-oriented, I am familiar with the quotes which the member younger leadership coming on who just simply want to provided from Grand Chief Ed John and Grand Chief begin to address the issues…. Stewart Phillip with respect to reconciliation and rec- I think the government is capturing an opportun- ognition. The comments they made, I'm sure, were ity and a period of time where there is a bit of a shift, reflective of the frustration and disappointment that where First Nations are saying: "Let's just get on with they were feeling at the end of a long process that they some stuff on the ground for our folks." I'm not dimin- had worked very hard on and given much personal com- ishing the government's good work in that area. What mitment to, and I'm sure it was deeply disappointing to I'm saying, though, and what I'm trying to understand them that it came to that kind of end. is: what is the broader context? Because overarching all I know that they incurred some considerable personal of that — and I'll get into some of these — are disputes criticism as they undertook their pan-provincial con- about…. The disputes occur over natural resource use, sultation. So I appreciate when coming out of what had over access to territorial lands, etc., because this broader been a process that was, I guess, vested with consider- framework did not come into existence. There isn't a able emotion that it's not surprising that there would be framework there. quotations of that character. 6170 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

That having been said, while reconciliation and demographic, but there are quite remarkable leaders. recognition as a kind of pan-provincial act had passed — One doesn't need to look far for them. Shawn Atleo has passed in the historic sense, or not been proceeded with proven to be a very capable and articulate leader. Jody — I do think that, nevertheless, there is much that can be Wilson-Raybould, his successor with the assembly, is learned from that. Again, I don't want to be presump- an amazing individual and I think will be very much tive here, but I do think that we've taken some of the a force to be reckoned with for decades to come in the lessons of reconciliation and recognition, and we have world of First Nations leadership. seen those principles expressed through individual or Chief Willie Charlie of the Chehalis, one of the exec- regional reconciliation protocols and other agreements. utive members of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs, is It's only been, for me, a year here, and there has young and very thoughtful and constructive. I've had been…. I think it's not a credit to me; it's a credit to First many wonderful conversations with Chief Willie Charlie, Nations and to all of the negotiators that work with the and I know he's going to be a great leader for the Union federal and provincial governments, in some cases, or of B.C. Indian Chiefs and for the Chehalis people for a the provincial government or the remarkably capable long time to come as well. staff that I have around me. There are lots of great dis- I think that observation is true. I think the observa- cussions going on, and I do feel that we are at the cusp tion that the member made about those young leaders of even greater achievements in terms of agreements seeking progress on the ground versus having long per- between First Nations and the government of British iods of time spent in what is ultimately non-fruitful Columbia. litigation is true as well. Litigation as a tool is a good one. I don't feel at all disappointed. I think we've made I mean, people litigate when they're unhappy with what spectacular progress over the past year, and we're on the is occurring. But whenever one can find negotiated solu- cusp of seeing even greater things in the year ahead. This, tions versus either legislated or court-imposed solutions to me, is an enormously exciting time to be a minister in to problems, we're always much further ahead. I do see, this ministry, and I think that we will see great things I think, a disposition, particularly among young aborig- happen in the weeks, months and years ahead as well. inal leaders, to try to move to negotiated solutions and In terms of the new relationship and the member's to understand these things by discussion. observation about "new relationship" in its capitalized The member also asked the question, and it's a fair and and non-capitalized forms in different documents…. reasonable question…. In the transformative change That reminded me of one of my areas of interest back in accord, on the back page we have all the signatories cur- university, and that was Soviet domestic policy. There rently to that accord. The leadership organizations are was a whole group of scholars who focused on what we also on the signing page. Our understanding — to the called a Kremlinology. Kremlinology used to focus on member's question — is that in terms of the transforma- where individuals in the Soviet leadership stood in re- tive change accord, the three leadership organizations lationship to Brezhnev or Kosygin and so on, and they will continue to represent themselves in that discussion. would use where those individuals were to deduce So the question of whether there will be continued whether they were rising or falling within the ranks of sort of constitution of the First Nations Leadership the Soviet leadership. Council is a question which will, at least in some meas- In this case, I would say that while it's an interesting ure, be concluded through the work of the All Chiefs observation, I wouldn't say it's compelling evidence that Task Force. That won't have a bearing on this. The three we have abandoned the new relationship. I think it's groups represented as signatories will continue to repre- probably more reflective of just the context in which the sent those groups as signatories. term "new relationship" was used. I've been pretty much to every cabinet discussion on aboriginal relations for B. Simpson: I want to correct the record. The Grand the past now ten years, and I can tell the member that Chiefs' statements that I read into the record were spe- there is no diminution of the cabinet's commitment to cifically about the new relationship, not the failed act. the new relationship and its principles. That remains They were explicit about their statement, and that's what very much in place. they were being asked about: what did the failure of the [1615] act mean for the new relationship? I did actually agree very much with the member's ob- Secondly, to the minister's point about whether it's servation about the young leadership that is emerging in capitalized or not capitalized, the minister knows we had First Nations leadership organizations. I have been very that discussion in the Haida bill as to whether "a new re- impressed with some of the young leaders. That's not to lationship" was capitalized in the Haida bill or not. The say that I'm not impressed with some of the older lead- reason that's important is because the new relationship ers as well. I think that in both cases it's true. in its capitalized form, which all the throne speeches up It may reflect the younger demographic of First to that point had used it as, actually references the docu- Nations in the province compared to our own broader ment, The New Relationship. Uncapitalized, it simply Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6171

says that we're trying to get a new relationship. There's point correspondence from the First Nations Leadership no reference point for that statement. Council to indicate that it was no longer operational. I wasn't trying to be Stalinist or Leninist or Soviet- One might deduce that from the level of interaction. style First Nations policy. It is an important distinction in We do have some funds. We are prepared…. I think this case, and the government actually used the capital- we've signalled this through correspondence with the ized version all the way up until that speech. That's whyI three groups — that we do have some funds to do col- think it is fair comment to find out what the government laborative work with them and that we're certainly understands the nature of the new relationship is. welcoming of proposals they might bring. [1620] I would add that the minister's comments about all B. Simpson: As a former high school teacher, I often three parties coming separately and individually to the look across at the minister in the House in question per- government get to the heart of the issue. The minis- iod and again today, when he says he doesn't want to be ter has also reflected that the All Chiefs Task Force has quarrelsome, and I thank goodness that he was well out come together. They are trying to resolve how they want of the high school system when I was teaching. As my to be represented, because that was part of the problem mother would say: "He has a very cheeky face when he with the reconciliation act. wants to put one on." On that note, before I come back to the new rela- tionship as a framework, I just want to clarify, then: is Interjection. the provincial government going to continue to pro- vide funding for the leadership council members — the B. Simpson: Yeah, I'm sure it has. Assembly of First Nations, the Union of B.C. Indian Anyway, let's leave the "the" or "a" or capital or not. I Chiefs and the summit? Is there individual funding be- think the point remains that what we're trying to under- ing provided to those? stand is: does the work on a pan-provincial, as the minister put it, framework for shared decision-making, Hon. G. Abbott: I don't want to be quarrelsome, a pan-provincial framework for revenue-sharing and a Madam Chair. As you know, I'm rarely quarrelsome, pan-provincial framework for government relation- but on this point I do want to continue this fascinat- ships…? Does that continue to exist? Does that dialogue ing debate around new relationship, capitalized and continue? uncapitalized. I would suggest that the minister already…. We know The distinction between the new relationship, which that answer, because the All Chiefs Task Force is trying is capitalized in a variety of documents, including, as to figure out how First Nations re-engage in the pan- the member rightly knows, the throne speech at one provincial work that needs to be done, and the minister's point…. In the Haida protocol — and, as I recall, the bill already admitted that the government is going to con- which gave statutory expression to the Haida protocol tinue on self-identified groups that come forward. — it commits British Columbia to building "a new rela- [1625] tionship" with the Haida. The problem with that that's been articulated to me is, In that context it makes far more sense to say a small- again…. Someone put this to me. They're not my words. n, small-r new relationship. In fact, I would submit to I want to be clear for Hansard. They're not my words. The the member that it would look curious if we said we are way that that system works is exactly why the attempt building a new relationship and capitalized both those was made to get the new relationship: because you have things, in building a relationship with the Haida. to be a good Indian. Again, I don't want to be quarrelsome. The member That's what this person said: "You have to be a good has been entirely civil and constructive in his comments, Indian." You have to be playing in the government's, so I don't want to be anything other than that myself. I whether that is Canada or British Columbia, sandbox to hope I'm not being too quarrelsome on that point with be able to get agreements or revenue-sharing or whatever. the member, but I do think it does make perfect sense. You often have to give up legal battles. You have to give We do have some funding for work which can be up your claims, etc. That's the trade-off to be able to get undertaken with the First Nations leadership groups, or something going on. if they decide to reconstitute in some way as the First Now, I know that there are some circumstances where Nations Leadership Council, we do have some funds to the government enters into agreements, and there are deal with that. It's kind of a question mark for us. some core processes underway, but the point remains that I think we've heard commentary from Grand Chief the new relationship was an attempt at a pan-provincial Stewart Phillip and others that the First Nations solution to all of these things. That was treated that way Leadership Council was dead, dead, dead — or what- by the First Nations business group, which actually said ever, something like that — to indicate that it wasn't to the government: "Wait a second. This move actually continuing. But in fairness, we haven't received at any has more implications to it." 6172 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

They started recommending a whole bunch of things was a First Nation in the province of British Columbia that they needed to have realized if we were going to that stuck to their principles — and, in some cases, their move down this direction of a pan-provincial approach guns — around disputes with senior governments, it to this, and including…. They recommended an imple- was the Haida. mentation of a consultation matrix or even said: "Look, We were able to find a reconciliation protocol with why don't you appoint an independent consultation the Haida. I think that if we can find ways to work in commissioner." They were trying to understand that collaboration with a First Nation towards the economic they weren't going to be left behind in this. and social betterment of an area of the province, Haida Let me get to some of the things that were in the is a great example — notwithstanding the history — that new relationship agreement. I'm trying to understand it can be done. whether they are in play or not as the government does So I don't agree with the point. I'm not even sure who its one-off agreements or agreements with large groups. the author of the quote was, but I don't agree. I think we On page 3 of the agreement version I have, it says, are, through these smaller agreements, actually able to for example, "Integrated intergovernmental structures take account of the local, regional differences between and policies to promote cooperation, including prac- First Nations. In some cases the agreements take special tical and workable agreements for land and resource account of circumstances and issues in those areas. decision-making and sustainable development will be I guess, as an example, in the northern coastal recon- put in place" — that that structure would be put in place. ciliation protocol there's a commitment by government Does such a structure exist? and, I think, by B.C. Ferries to see a better ferry docking arrangement at Klemtu. That was hugely important for Hon. G. Abbott: The member may want to explore one of the First Nations. It was a provision that we were this a little bit more. I'm not entirely sure where he's go- able to get into the agreement, and it was reflective of ing with this, so I'll try to be clear here. But he may want something that was of great local and regional concern, to explore some of the dark corners of my answer more and we were able to do that. thoroughly. In terms of a structured approach, the strategic en- Government, certainly on a pan-provincial basis, has gagement agreement, I guess, is a structured approach. developed policies with respect to revenue-sharing and The emphasis has been on trying to achieve agreements with respect to shared decision-making in the form of rather than on trying to structure organizations, or re- decision-making matrixes, and so on. I think that there structure organizations. We're glad to await the advice of are pan-provincial policies. It has been our aim over the the All Chiefs Task Force in relation to the future of the past several months now, a year, to try to find expression leadership council. I'm glad to sit down at any point and of those policies and those principles in either regional talk about that with them. or individual agreements with First Nations. We'll look forward with interest, as I'm sure the mem- I don't dismiss the possibility, based on the outcome ber does, to the conclusion of the task force. of the All Chiefs Task Force and based on circumstance and the evolving nature of our relationship with First B. Simpson: The minister did actually confuse me Nations, that we may be able to do something on a pan- somewhat with the nature of the new relationship and provincial basis in the future. That's possible. what the government was trying to achieve. He articulated it in a way that, "if we ever get to pan-provincial, that's [J. Thornthwaite in the chair.] sort of out there," when in fact, from what I understood, the whole new relationship was to actually try and It's not what I would expect though. I'm not expecting get there. That was the point of having the leadership that that will be the character of future agreements. council, the discussions — eventually moving to a rec- I think the far more viable, practical way to go is to onciliation act, etc. work on agreements on that self-identifying, self-ag- Let me give another example. I want to just quickly gregating basis that we talked about in the past. But I go back to the sandbox question. This came up in the certainly wouldn't be dismissive of the possibility of a discussion around the First Nations woodland licence, pan-provincial agreement on some area that we're not where the First Nations Forestry Council explicitly states yet identifying. that they do not like clauses in that act. I actually asked [1630] the minister if he would repeal those clauses in that de- In terms of the question: do First Nations have to play bate, because it does require it to be part of an interim in the federal and provincial government sandboxes measure or some kind of ongoing agreement. before any progress can be made…? I think the most There will be — and I know the minister has got an powerful piece of evidence one could offer that that is invitation — next week, Tuesday, a session with the First not the case, and I suspect the member would agree Nations Forestry Council around that. There's that same with this, is the agreement with the Haida. If there ever feeling of: you've got to be playing with us in order to get Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6173

one of these things. So it's not just an individual who has leadership council discussion, whoever was managing that indicated that; it's a general sense. — which was to establish much broader processes. It's in- Let me ask the minister then specifically….I n The New teresting to hear the reflection of the attempts to look at a Relationship document — which the minister indicates quasi-judicial body or some kind of thing that First he still believes exists; it hasn't been derailed by the loss Nations could go to as an alternate to the court system. of the R-and-R act — it states, as a matter of principle The reference to the Haida, again, is a one-off. It will to guide the new relationship, that "dispute resolution deal with that, but the new relationship was to try and processes which are mutually determined for resolving find the provincial piece. So here's an explicit example conflicts rather than adversarial approaches to resolving that, again, I think captures some of the frustration conflicts" is a guiding principle. around the new relationship relative to the realities on The New Relationship document actually then stated the ground. It certainly has been expressed that way to that it would, jointly with the leadership council, "de- me and, I believe, to the minister. velop impartial dispute resolution processes and work For example, the Prosperity mine. The mine itself is towards a decrease in conflicts leading to litigation." not in my riding, but it impacts my riding. It's in the [1635] member for Cariboo-Chilcotin's physical riding, but it As a result of the new relationship and the previous impacts us both. It is a proposal in an area that's eco- work that was being done, has some kind of alternate nomically depressed to create hundreds of jobs. It is a dispute resolution mechanism been brought into exist- proposal that a lot of individuals see as a way out for ence where individual First Nations can call for dispute them seeing the collapse of the forest industry, which resolution instead of litigation or direct action? was the major driver. Unfortunately, because of lack of process, it has become a flashpoint in our community Hon. G. Abbott: I think the answer to the member's and a very ugly debate in the community. question is this, and again, he may wish to explore this I know the minister is well aware of this. In fact, the further: negotiation or litigation remain largely the two minister and I engaged in an electronic debate on this paths that parties in dispute can take to try to resolve when he was on Voice of B.C. I got to ask a question, and their differences. the minister got to answer the question on Voice of B.C. I'm advised that there was considerable discussion But in the case of the Prosperity mine dispute with the with respect to having a common, quasi-judicial method Tsilhqot'in National Government, what they raise in of dispute resolution. There was much discussion about their reflection to the minister is: where is the new re- that quasi-judicial approach, and I think the parties lationship which promises government-to-government agreed ultimately that it was likely to be almost as ex- relationships, promises shared decision-making, prom- pensive as judicial processes and perhaps less satisfying ises that they would have the ability to make decisions and conclusive in the end as well. about what would happen in their territorial areas? I think it's fair to say that the shift that has occurred Yet the Ministry of Environment comes out and since that point in time is to try to find dispute resolution gives the province's approval for that mine to proceed. models within the context of agreements. I would refer That's where there's a clash of expectations versus real- the member again to the Haida reconciliation protocol, ity. A pan-provincial or provincewide dispute resolution wherein we have created a management council com- mechanism might have resolved some of that. prised of two Haida representatives, two representatives One of the new relationship objectives was to give First from the provincial government, with a fifth, a neutral Nations the ability…. It says "each First Nations' decision- chair who would engage when the parties were unable making authority, and financial capacity forF irst Nations" to reach consensus on our agreement. That is a form of to develop "frameworks for shared land and resource dispute resolution I think consistent with the spirit of decision-making and to engage in other negotiations." I the new relationship. wonder if the minister can explain or reconcile the prom- [1640] ise of a new relationship, trying to avoid litigation, with The other example I'd cite, and this gets down to the Ministry of Environment doing business as usual and sort of technical detail level…. Within the decision- actually using what I would call inflammatory language making matrix associated with SEA and with the with respect to the major bone of contention for First northern coastal reconciliation protocol, when one gets Nations, and that's the future of Fish Lake. up into the more complex areas of decision-making in the So how does the minister reconcile, again, the expect- decision-making matrices of those kinds of agreements, ations of the promise of the new relationship with the there can be engaged dispute resolution models as well. business as usual in the case of Prosperity mine?

B. Simpson: The minister's answer to the question ac- Hon. G. Abbott: I think the character, the principles, tually reflects, this time, what I understood the attempts the spirit of the new relationship are all well evident were that were being made at the new relationship — the in the very constructive discussions that we have been 6174 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

having in recent months with the Tsilhqot'in National What I'm trying to understand, though, is…. That Government in respect of arriving at a strategic engage- could also end up as sitting in a situation where we have ment agreement. haves and have-nots in the province, where some First Those discussions have gone very well. The member is Nations are able to move forward rather rapidly because right that historically this has been an area where some of of the leadership they have, because of the resources the most difficult relationships have existed between the available, because of the willingness of the broader com- provincial government — and, I suppose, the federal gov- munity to engage on those, whereas others may not have ernment as well — in relation to the Tsilhqot'in peoples. those same circumstances and get left behind. There have been very good discussions with theT silhqot'in The intent of the new relationship was to build a in respect of a strategic engagement agreement. provincial framework to try and address some of that [1645] inequity. We are hoping that we will see, through the conclu- In the case of the Tsilhqot'in National Government sion of that SEA, an agreement between the government and the dispute over Fish Lake, they have been crystal- and the Tsilhqot'in National Government of a com- clear in all presentations that they've made. Fish Lake monly agreed-to decision-making matrix. I think that is a no go. I understand that the minister has indicated will be a huge step ahead. So I think the spirit of the there are some members of some of the bands in there new relationship is alive and well in relationship to our that would like to enjoy some of the economic prosper- discussions, our negotiations, our relations with the ity, but the leadership and the representations they've Tsilhqot'in National Government. made to the federal panel have been very, very clear that In terms of the Prosperity mine, I was up to Williams as far as they're concerned, that's a showstopper. Lake last weekend, as I know the hon. member was too. The issue that I want to get back to is, again, The New I met with, I think, three or four of the First Nations up Relationship, where it indicates that as part of the action there. I do know that Prosperity mine is a very import- plan, there would be the establishment of "effective pro- ant issue to them. cedures for consultation and accommodation." I know that for the citizens of Williams Lake it's also [1650] a very important economic development issue for them. The minister, in his answer to my question onVoice of There is not unanimity of opinion among the residents B.C.… I'm not being petty in this. There is a reason for of Williams Lake about whether Prosperity should pro- raising this. The minister states…. This is a transcript of ceed or not proceed, nor do I think there's necessarily Voice of B.C. When I asked the question about how the unanimity among Tsilhqot'in people about whether Ministry of Environment could issue a certificate to Prosperity should proceed or not proceed. approve a mine where the First Nations have indicated I think it would be, probably, remarkably unconstructive they did not want it to proceed, used inflammatory lan- for me to speculate ultimately on what Prosperity mine guage about "too bad Fish Lake has to go," but they think and all of its ancillary features might be. There is still an that that's reasonable, where that's the issue for First Nations. important process underway. The federal environmental I said that the First Nations found this decision to be assessment processes are still underway. I think all par- unilateral, disappointing and frustrating. The minister ties wait with great interest as to what will come out of responded by saying: "I'm familiar with this issue. Bob that federal environmental assessment process. is confusing some of the issues and responsibilities in There is also, I'm certain, going to be, in the wake of his question." the decision of the federal review panel, additional dis- Then the minister goes and talks about Ministry of cussions between the Taseko Mines and the Tsilhqot'in Environment processes, etc., but doesn't come back to First Nation and, perhaps, individual First Nations where the confusion exists. It's not just mine. The minister within the Tsilhqot'in and other areas about potential must know there is confusion out there about what due revenue-sharing and so on. process is for consultation and accommodation when I don't know how that's going to come out. I think it's you have situations like this. That's really at the heart of too early in the process to form conclusions about what what the TNG are saying, what the West Moberly are say- should or shouldn't happen. I think at least until the federal ing with Site C and the Nak'azdli with Mount Milligan. review process is complete, we shouldn't form our conclu- All of those things are what constitutes consulta- sions about what can or should be in relation to that. tion with First Nations before a development project proceeds. I'd like the minister, on the public record, to B. Simpson: I'm aware of some of the work that the indicate: in the case of Prosperity, what does he under- ministry is doing. Again, I don't want anything that I'm stand to be an appropriate consultation mechanism for saying to be misconstrued. I believe that this is a ministry TNG and other interested parties — the Hul'qumi'num, that is trying to truly address the socioeconomic gap and etc. — that are making individual representations? trying to use strategic engagement, reconciliation agree- They're all frustrated because they believe that the ments and various other tools to get there. obligation rests with the province and Canada to consult Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6175 with them, not for them to be left withT aseko or simply Prosperity mine or the processes associated, because I make a presentation to the review panel. think some of those matters remain before the courts. Of What is the minister's understanding of appropriate course, as I said at the outset, the federal review process consultation in these cases? also remains in process, and it would be inappropriate, I think, for me to make definitive comments about this Hon. G. Abbott: I appreciate the member's import- when those processes are still in play. ant question, and I think we need to back up a little bit in terms of understanding. Over the period of probably B. Simpson: This does go to the heart of some of the the last 20 or 30 years, there have been a variety of court struggles out there with respect to the new relationship, cases — some of which have gone on to the Supreme because part of what the new relationship did is put the Court of Canada — which have provided guidance to strategic vision…. Again, I agree with the minister. The governments about how and where and with whom the federal review panel has to complete its work, and then consultations should proceed. it goes to federal cabinet. Haida is one of the recent examples of a court case I think that's where most First Nations have also that helped to hone the way in which the province needs landed. They're going to see how that process works to look at its responsibilities to consult. The courts have — not necessarily by choice, because they're limited in also provided some guidance to governments with respect resources. They don't have the capacities the minister to those circumstances in which governments should indicated to make the court the arbiter of final resort, not only consult but, where appropriate, accommodate because often they don't have the financial resources or — that is, appreciate the special concerns of the First the wherewithal. They've got so many irons in the fire Nation or respect that a certain proposal has impacts that they just can't go there. which need to be mitigated through accommodation I think that right now the First Nations are also await- measures. ing the outcome. But there are a couple of things that There is a body of case law that the province has the minister indicated. This isn't alone. There are also, learned from, which is embodied in our consultation as I said, Mount Milligan, the ramping up around Site C, practices and customs and documents. I think the work in the minister's own riding, the dispute between Tolko that the environmental assessment office in British and the Okanagan band, the Carrier-Sekani and the Columbia does is consistent with all we have learned Enbridge pipeline. over a period of decades about consultation and, where You know, I can enumerate a lot more. In fact, one appropriate, accommodation. just hit the press recently. The Endako Mines expansion [1655] is now going to court; the Upper Nicola band with the If one looks at the EAO and what it does, they consult B.C. Transmissions Corporation; West Moberly in the extensively with First Nations. They listen to the submis- Cariboo and the Haisla are also involved in Enbridge. sions that are presented. They weigh the evidence that is So I'm using the Prosperity situation as an example, assembled by First Nations and give account to it, but there and the minister's answer is actually quite intriguing. So should never be confusion between consulting, listening, here's the context that I'm trying to get at. versus making a decision. In the end the decision which Inside The New Relationship document is the prov- is rendered by the environmental assessment office may ince's five great goals, which they then couched as the or may not be agreed to by the First Nation in question, strategic vision for B.C. Point 4 is to "lead the world in but that shouldn't be confused with the sincerity and the sustainable environmental management, with the best adequacy of consultation. air quality, water quality and best fisheries management, The fact that a particularEAO panel rendered a decision bar none." And you have a group of First Nations that are which one or more First Nations disagree with doesn't say sitting there saying that there are two lakes there — which, that the consultation was inadequate or insincere. One again, they make the claims and have made those presen- shouldn't form that conclusion. tations — that have a unique species of fish, an overstocked A final point on this. If a First Nation is unhappy with fish, in Fish Lake and historical and territorial rights to what they perceive to be inadequate consultation, the that, and they're seeing that that's going to be blown out. courts stand as the arbiter of whether that consultation [1700] has been adequate or inadequate. Of course, there are a The other thing is that they are promised in the new variety of court cases — past, present and no doubt future relationship the recognition of the need to preserve their — in British Columbia which will be testing the adequacy decision-making authority, the promise of shared decision- of consultative processes in courts in British Columbia making, revenue-sharing, etc., yet the minister's response and in some cases in the Supreme Court of Canada. is that the EAO office is sufficient in and of itself. So that's, I think, the layout. Again, I really want to I think the minister understands it at a deeper level refrain from the invitation of the opposition Aboriginal than that. That was part of the whole impetus behind Relations critic to speculate or form conclusions about the new relationship — the question of what constitutes 6176 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

due consultation. My understanding of the court cases First Nation desired, which is the dismissal of the pro- is that it is the obligation of the Crown. ject in whole. That to me is unfortunate. So is the minister indicating that the EAO, the en- In fact, environmental assessment processes existed vironmental assessment office, is the agent of theC rown under the former NDP government. They exist under as far as consultation and accommodation occurs? I want our government. I think even the president of the New to be very explicit about this. Is that what the minister Democratic Party, Moe Sihota, who had some con- is saying on the public record — that the environmental siderable experience as an Environment Minister in assessment office is acting as the agent of the Crown the province, said that parties should put their faith in and that what it deems sufficient consultation is suffi- environmental assessment, in the environmental assess- cient and that it is supposed to look at accommodation ment office. I think that was good advice. as well? I do appreciate that there's always going to be politics around this. I had ministerial responsibility at one time Hon. G. Abbott: The environmental assessment of- for EAO. It is a very sound, very comprehensive, very fice is an agent of theC rown. They are part of theC rown. technical, very non-partisan, very non-political ap- They are an agency which, while it does technical work, proach to trying to understand the project and trying to, provides recommendations to ministers of the Crown where appropriate, put proper conditions around it or and is certainly very much a part of the Crown. They are dismiss it as a project inappropriate on the land base. the agency through which many of the responsibilities of the Crown in respect of land use are achieved. B. Simpson: The member for Nanaimo–North In terms of accommodation, some of the accommoda- Cowichan isn't here, so I think it's unfair for us to con- tion that might be associated with a specific project may tinue to foster that debate. I do recall the minister's be found through the conditions on a project. Again, as comments in the House about: "So do you want First an example, the member will recall the environmental Nations to have a veto?" What the member actually, in assessment process around the Halalt. Actually, it was my recollection — it's on the public record — was ask- the city of North Cowichan and their water project, in ing the minister was to include the First Nations at the an area adjacent to the Halalt First Nation. table in a watershed planning exercise. In that case, the environmental assessment produced As the minister well knows, this isn't a contentious conditions on the project, reducing the number of wells issue with respect to just the opposition. This is a con- from three to two and limiting the amount of pump- tentious issue with respect to First Nations on what ing which would be done seasonally. That would be an constitutes appropriate consultation and accommoda- example of accommodation introduced by the environ- tion. The EAO does not address traditional territories, mental assessment recommendations. territorial rights, broader accommodation issues, etc. It [1705] is project-focused. In terms of other elements of accommodation, There's a heightened concern around theEAO , the en- though — and there is, I must say, a little bit of confu- vironmental assessment office, on two fronts, because of sion around this point — there may be other elements budgetary constraints that they have had and a pulling of accommodation which will be achieved outside of the back of their budget, and because of the government's environmental assessment recommendations through intent to go to one project, one process. agreement between the First Nation and industry and/or Often First Nations default to the federal process, government. It would be difficult to speculate, because which they believe is more robust, and they have greater it's going to vary with every project and every circum- opportunity to have input than what is currently avail- stance, but there may be elements of accommodation able to them in the provincial process. The minister that are found outside of the EAO process. must know this. I know First Nations are talking to him I would go back again to what I think is…. I'm not about this bone of contention, of what constitutes sure why this misunderstanding exists, but the member consultation. will recall…. I know we've had some spirited debates on In the case of Prosperity, the issue, of course, is that this, and perhaps we can get that kind of really good de- you've got the Vickers case, which compounds or I guess bate going on here briefly. reinforces the claims of the TNG. Judge Vickers came When the issue of the Halalt environmental assess- very close to saying: "We're going to recognize this in ment process came up, one of the member's colleagues the courts if the governments don't get their act together — the member for North Cowichan, I think…. Sorry, and recognize it through a negotiated process." It came I've got his riding wrong. The member basically stated very, very close to flat out using the law and the judicial in the Legislature during question period that the en- process to recognize territorial rights. vironmental assessment process with respect to the [1710] North Cowichan water system must have been flawed The Prosperity project area sits in the heart of what because it didn't produce the outcome which the Halalt Judge Vickers indicated — that he recognized the rights Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6177

existed for the TNG but because of some technicalities, collapse of the First Nations ability, through the leader- etc., did not recognize them. ship council, to continue to engage. So back to the EAO, though, in the interest of time. As we've indicated, we'll see what happens with the One of the things that the minister is well aware of is All Chiefs Task Force, but I would hope that that would the case of a similar project, the Kemess North project. reinvigorate the discussions. What I hear — and I know What First Nations are calling for is a joint review panel the minister must hear it…. For a lot of these bands that process where First Nations with territorial claims are are dealing with these issues and forced to go to litiga- actually involved in the review of the project. They're tion, it's a negative impetus. It's not a constructive way not just another stakeholder coming to the EAO or the to resolve these issues. federal panel and saying: "Look, we kind of have an in- They don't share, in my estimation, the minister's as- terest in this area, and we'd like to be heard." sessment that they are not just other stakeholders at the There was a joint panel process in play in the case of EAO. That is a bone of contention for them, andI 've heard Prosperity mine. It disbanded, I would argue, because wherever I've gone that they believe they are. They're some partners got cold feet when the Kemess North de- invited to come and make a presentation, just like every- cision came down, and the Amazay Lake project was body else. It's not, in their estimation, due consultation. effectively put in abeyance. Let me close on the consultation piece, again against So my question to the minister is: would the minister the backdrop of the new relationship. There were some consider…? It's presumptive of the federal panel. If they councils that were formed to do some of the work. They say to go ahead — and I've already had these discussions were indicated in The New Relationship as the working with Taseko — going ahead as is, as the environmental groups to work on some things — a forestry council, the certificate for the ministry has indicated, is too bad, so energy and mines council, etc. sad about Fish Lake. There isn't accommodation there One of those councils initiated going and interrupting or offered at this juncture. The First Nations are saying the work of the All Chiefs Task Force on a very specific they would like to get back and be at the table in an ap- issue, and that is failure of the government, in their es- propriate fashion in a joint review panel. timation, to consult with respect to a piece of legislation Has the minister had that dialogue? If not, would he we have in front of the House, the Clean Energy Act. be interested in that dialogue with the TNG? My question to the minister is not about the bill. It has to do with the response of government to the First Hon. G. Abbott: The important question that the Nations, because the Minister of Energy, Mines and member posed is: are First Nations just another stake- Petroleum Resources indicated: "No, we did consult." holder in terms of EAO processes? The answer to that is I'm sure the minister has seen it. It was cc'd to him. no. They are most certainly not just another stakeholder, The resolution states explicitly that they were not con- nor are they treated as such in the process. Their par- sulted, and they're asking for the bill put in abeyance in ticipation is specifically welcomed by theEAO . They are toto. We can't discuss the bill, but I would like the min- invited to participate in working groups associated with ister to reflect on what he believes are the appropriate the EAO deliberations. They are invited, outside of the steps for the government to take to address the divide working group process, to engage government to gov- that exists on the number of First Nations that believe ernment on issues of concern as well. they were not consulted with that piece of legislation. [1715] [1720] I should also note for the record that Prosperity Lake is not in the Xeni Gwet'in title area that was adjudicated Hon. G. Abbott: I appreciate the member's import- by Justice Vickers. ant question with respect to consultation. This won't be a full answer to it, but I know that the member doesn't B. Simpson: As I said at the outset, I would state my want to have the period between now and seven o'clock ignorance, and I appreciate the minister correcting it as completely occupied by my answer either. gently as he did. There is a distinction between bills of general applica- I do want to close off this section. I promised my tion and bills of specific application. I think that's one colleagues some time on some other issues that we'll ad- way to begin to frame it. Secondly, I think, in terms of dress here, so we'll interrupt. Then, when we come back, the Clean Energy Act, there was as a predecessor to that we'll come back to treaty. act, a clean energy task force, which I know enjoyed The promise of the new relationship was to get away the advice of Dave Porter as one of its members and of from litigation, to try and look for a provincial framework, Chief Ken Brown of the Klahoose as one of its members. to have other, alternate decision-making processes and I know that they were both very active members of the consultation more clearly defined so that First Nations task force and provided excellent advice to it. were as comfortable with it as the government was com- There are two areas of the Clean Energy Act which I fortable with it, etc. I think the reality is…. Partly that's a think are very positive from a First Nations perspective. 6178 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

Just two days ago — Monday — the Minister of Energy, make note of a few of them, but there are many initia- Mines and Petroleum Resources and I had the oppor- tives. We all look forward to the day when we start to see tunity to meet with the First Nations Energy and Mining some narrowing of the differences between social and Council to discuss some of the issues in and around the economic outcomes between aboriginal people, whether Clean Energy Act, and we have committed to further on or off reserve, and other British Columbians. discussions on that. In the urban context, one of the organizations that I can certainly advise the member that the council we work with that I think deserves enormous praise for very much welcomes the commitment contained in the the work that they do are the aboriginal friendship cen- Clean Energy Act for, for the first time ever, revenue- tres. Whether we're in a big urban area like Vancouver sharing for power projects. That's a huge and important or smaller urban areas like Prince George or Kelowna step ahead. Also, they very much welcome, although or Kamloops, friendship centres play a very important they…. We have to have some further discussions role. We very much appreciate the dedication and part- around the quantum, but they very much welcome the nership that they bring to the work that's done with both creation of the First Nations energy equity business the province and the federal government. fund to assist First Nations to get some skin in the game Among the initiatives that I should highlight, the area — I guess would be the best way to do it — to acquire an of housing is an important one. I know that the mem- equity interest. ber's particular interest is in housing. More than 4,000 Those are very much positives from the council's new and upgraded supported-housing units and shelter perspective and, I suspect, from most First Nations' per- beds are being created through the provincial home- spectives. We look forward to continuing discussions less initiative, which benefits many homeless aboriginal with the council and other First Nations about how this people. As the member well knows, aboriginal people act can work for them. are overrepresented among the homeless in Vancouver and elsewhere, so the commitment that the Housing S. Simpson: What I'd like to do is discuss with the Minister has made to expanding the stock of supportive minister some issues related to urban aboriginal issues housing units and shelter beds is an important one. in particular. The minister knows all too well the chal- Through the aboriginal housing initiative, the province lenges that the urban aboriginal community is facing in has committed $50.9 million to build 200 new units of a whole array of areas, whether it be issues around pov- affordable, off-reserve aboriginal housing, which is creat- erty, around homelessness, around addictions, around ing safe, secure and culturally appropriate housing in ten kids in care…. The list is long. It's very difficult, and it's communities for youth, women, elders and those strug- very challenging. gling with addictions. So those are two important ones. The minister would know, andI appreciate, that while An area that I think is particularly important for nar- it's certainly not exclusive, the ministry is largely fo- rowing the gaps in the future — education. I want to cused on issues related more to on reserve, to treaties, to note particularly that we have created, signed and im- economic development issues, to the broader issues of plemented some 49 aboriginal education enhancement the aboriginal community on reserve and issues related agreements around the province. Those are very import- to that. Yet as we know, of course, the majority…. I guess ant. As well, the government has implemented the $65 it's now about 60 percent, I think — the last number I million aboriginal post-secondary education strategy to saw. About 60 percent of our First Nations commun- increase access to post-secondary education. ity, in fact, are living in urban areas throughout the We had some discussion of this earlier, and I won't re- province. peat all of the discussion that occurred between the critic I guess the first question I have for the minister is: and me, but I think that there is some very important could the minister just give me his sense of what the in- work that's being undertaken at colleges and universi- itiatives are, what the focus of the ministry is in terms of ties across the province. Many have added aboriginal getting at some of the challenges that our urban aborig- gathering centres on campus, which have made the uni- inal communities are facing? Then maybe we'll get into a versities and colleges much more welcoming places to little bit of some of the specifics on two or three of those First Nations than they were a decade or two ago. areas after that. [1730] [1725] Also, I cited a couple examples: Okanagan College now with over 600 First Nations or aboriginal stu- Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for his question. dents, hugely up from when I used to teach there; and I certainly agree with his premise that First Nations in an Camosun College, another recent example, of around urban setting are often experiencing some of the most 800. Actually, in both cases, it's around 800 aboriginal compelling challenges from health, education, housing students. perspectives. So there are many things that are under- They are doing an amazing job of outreach, connecting way in terms of trying to improve that situation, and I'll aboriginal students to adult basic education programs, Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6179

to skills-training programs and to academic programs, I want to just pick up on that, because I think it's one all of which I think are hugely important in the shift of the really critical areas. I know in discussions with that we all want to see in terms of more positive socio- the friendship centre and with native health — Lou economic outcomes. Demerais and those folks, who kind of know these issues We've provided $6 million to aboriginal ActNow B.C. way better than I or, I assume, the minister ever will, be- health initiatives, many of which are delivered through cause they live with them every day — that we need to the friendship centres as part of the aboriginal ActNow find ways to break this cycle in the urban areas — and B.C., and $2 million to the aboriginal nursing strategy, I think of Vancouver, particularly, with young people, hoping to see more First Nations among the nurses that young First Nations. we're educating in the province. This is a very challenging area. We're seeing increas- Those are some of the areas. We've been talking generally ing numbers end up in gangs where there's serious about some of the economic development side of the work violence involved. It now appears, from my discussions we do, but those would be some examples of attempting to with the police, that some of these gangs are now getting address the issues of off-reserve urban aboriginals. co-opted by some of the more sophisticated gang ele- ments in British Columbia, the Hell's Angels and others, S. Simpson: I would agree with the minister in his to kind of do their dirty work for them at the street level. comments about the friendship centres. I certainly These kids are way out of their league here and in serious know that in Vancouver I've had the opportunity to trouble. There's serious violence going on. work with the friendship centre, which sits just out- [1735] side the boundaries of my constituency, on a number of I get told by elders in the community that part of their issues — primarily because I probably have most of the biggest worry is that these kids are feeling that nobody urban aboriginal housing in Vancouver. The bulk of it is values them at all. If they're not valued, they then feel in my constituency, as well as some of the schools that this freedom or whatever to go out and sort of adopt host significant numbers of aboriginal kids. an antisocial behaviour that's very, very serious both for The minister talked about housing. Certainly, the in- themselves and for others in the community. itiatives around housing for the homeless are initiatives The question I have for the minister is: how does the that First Nations can take advantage of. The minis- minister see his ministry working with Education, with ter will know that some of the most critical areas are Solicitor General and with other partners in the govern- around family housing for First Nations — family hous- ment? What is the role of his ministry to advance a series ing questions. of programs or initiatives to try to get at these kids and I certainly see families, younger families, particularly, give them some modicum of hope that there's a life in often with very young parents — teenaged moms or just front of them that they can be excited about, and maybe out of being teenaged moms — that are having kids and get them to turn their back on the road that too many looking for opportunities. They're living with relatives in seem to be heading down and change that dynamic? housing that doesn't meet their needs. It's too cramped. It's not working, and they really need the opportunity to [H. Bloy in the chair.] be able to get out and find housing of their own as well as the opportunities around education and that. Hon. G. Abbott: I'll try to be relatively quick with The other thing we know, of course…I know I look at my answer again because I'm aware of the time con- the schools in my constituency, like Macdonald, which straints. I generally want to indicate that I appreciate may or may not survive as a school, but probably about the member's question. I appreciate the member's ob- 80 percent of its population now is First Nations kids. servation, and I particularly appreciate him referencing There's just an array of the problems there that start with Lou Demerais, who I've had an opportunity to meet on the poverty that so many of the families are living in, many occasions as Health Minister and more recently as and the challenges they have. Aboriginal Relations Minister. The complexity there…. I look at that area, and that's I think Lou does just a terrific job in his work with the first area that we see predators coming in, trying aboriginal youth, particularly, but also with those who to draw some of these kids — elementary school kids, are suffering through all the issues associated with men- 11- and 12-year-old girls — into prostitution in the com- tal health and addictions. He does terrific work, andI 'm munity, and trying to draw them out of the schools and glad the member acknowledged his important role. into street prostitution. There are — and the member rightly observes — many We're seeing those predators on a fairly regular basis. issues associated with the challenges of mental health I know the school board and the police and others are and addictions, and with youth crime, the gangs in par- working hard to crack down on that and deal with that, ticular, that are certainly not confined to First Nations. but it's the allure of dollars and those things that come This is a challenge for every community in Vancouver — with some of the alienation that they feel. those issues. 6180 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

In terms of how we try to begin to deal with them, issues which the member has raised here: drugs, alco- there are programs of general application in the mental hol abuse, crime, gangs — all of these issues — and what health and addictions area which I think First Nations they can do as youth to build stronger communities. benefit from. The member will recall the addition, for Again, as we've talked about a little earlier in this de- example, of the Burnaby Centre for Mental Health and bate, there is a younger demographic among aboriginal Addiction — the challenge of concurrent intractable people. I'll try to get this right: more than 50 percent of mental health and addiction disorders. First Nations and aboriginal people in British Columbia I think that was a big step ahead when I visited there, are under age 26. In relation to the non-native demo- as I have a couple times, though I haven't since I left the graphic, they are very young. Health Ministry. Certainly, First Nations are well repre- That, to me, says that we have a real opportunity as a sented there in terms of the client base. They get more society if we can reach out to aboriginal youth to ensure than their fair share of these challenges in the commun- that they have all of the opportunities that my kids are ity, and so the additional programs and facilities are of pursuing, that they have the same opportunity to access much benefit to them. colleges and universities, to access basic education and The Ministry ofA boriginal Relations and Reconciliation then skills training or academic professions. All of those, plays a coordinating role in relation to other social policy I think, are very exciting. ministries. We may bring the ministries together, as an We know that in the decade ahead there's going to be example, to discuss how we can improve aboriginal edu- a tremendous demand for human resources and par- cation. The leads will be the Ministry of Education and ticularly health human resources. That, to me, says that Ministry of Advanced Education and Labour Market we have an opportunity. If, as a government and as a so- Development. We come together and talk about ideas for ciety, we can reach out to aboriginal young people and programs and improving existing programs. acquaint them with the great opportunities they're go- Recently we had a meeting around aboriginal sport ing to have in the next decade or two ahead, I think we and how we can use sport more effectively as a way of can achieve those kinds of fundamental shifts around providing an alternate outlet for youthful energy in socioeconomic outcomes that we need to achieve to re- sport rather than some of the gang-influenced criminal verse some of the current situation, which is, I think, activities, which kids of any background can too easily very unfortunate. fall into. [1740] S. Simpson: I would agree with the minister that there Another example of an idea that I feel passionately are both opportunities and challenges here in terms of about and that we're working on, which the member dealing with this. The minister talks about the large per- knows well, is the program BladeRunners, which, I think, centage of young people. I've heard similar numbers. It's was instigated back about 1995 under an NDP govern- dramatically a very young community, largely. But when ment. It is one of those programs that have endured very the minister talks about some of the programs and that…. well, that have played a terrific role in at-risk youth.A s I I certainly know those programs — like BladeRunners, recall, about 80 percent of the program participants are which are very effective. Certainly a large number of aboriginal, and many of those have gone on to have on- the successful people who have come through the going sustained employment in the construction sector. BladeRunners — a majority — have First Nations back- We explore ideas about how we can take a very good grounds, and there are other programs I can think of. program like BladeRunners and build on it. Are there But I also know that there are real challenges in the com- ways that we can utilize graduates of the BladeRunners munity around where their funding comes to deal with program to perhaps go back into either the urban some of their programs. community or the reserve community, share some of The one that jumps out at me, I know, in discussions the skills and become some role models and mentors I've had with folks at the friendship centre, is that there to aboriginal young people to think about careers in are significant numbers of children in care out of ab- construction? original communities. It's their lack of resources or the I think that there are many exciting things going on reduction in their resources at the friendship centre to be in this area, and I think we need to continue to build on able to provide staff who simply can help parents whose those. I should also mention that in terms of youth spe- children have been taken into care to understand what cifically, we work with a group.I think the member may that means, to kind of understand the processes they be familiar with them: the Unified Aboriginal Youth have to go through, to understand the things they need Collective. I met with them earlier this year. They gather to accomplish to get their kids back or to deal with that. together, and in the most recent case they gathered at [1745] the Hyatt Regency in Vancouver. Too often they don't have the resources to be able to There were at least several hundred youth from around mentor or to help people through that process. So it then the province who gathered to talk about the kinds of becomes a pretty bewildering process for somebody who Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6181

doesn't understand it. Too often that happens, and prob- arguably, that feel alienated from the process of resolving ably the end result isn't the best result that it could have the questions that relate to First Nations because they been for anybody. have somehow kind of got themselves into this situation I guess that really leads me, kind of, to the last ques- where they're caught between the on-reserve and the tion that I have. It's the one that has been raised to me, traditional leadership, for lack of a better term, in the and I've raised this with the minister's predecessors in First Nations and the governments in this negotiation this ministry too, and I know there's been some concur- and this discussion? rence. It is a difficult question, andI would acknowledge They are in the middle, and they, frankly, are feeling that. that they have no place at the table, that they have no You have this large percentage of First Nations people voice, and they don't know how to get at that. What's the living in urban centres. Their connection is not neces- minister's advice on that, or how do we deal with that? sarily by band but by the nature of their ancestry as [1750] First Nations and their geographic relationship. They come from across the province or across the country, Hon. G. Abbott: Again, I thank the member for his and they're in Vancouver or Surrey or Prince George or important question. It is a complex question, but I'll do wherever they are. my best on that. I think that the issue that the member They are increasingly a community, yet of course, raises is about the, at times, loss of connection between when it comes to discussions around significant deci- the former on-reserve leadership versus the urban situa- sions, when it comes to discussions around resources tion, where often there isn't the same connection to a and resource allocation, the bands say: "Those folks specific leadership. belong to our bands, and we will deal with them as I guess these are just some thoughts I have, and I don't members of our band." intend this to be a definitive answer to the member's I understand that, and I certainly don't profess to be question. I'm not sure that there's an entirely defin- expert in this in any way, but the folks that I talk to at the itive answer to it. But first I'd want to acknowledge that community level say that doesn't occur and, "We don't some First Nations, more effectively than others, have have a working relationship with those bands, which maintained an off-reserve connection.A s an example, the may be halfway across the province, in order to deal Nisga'a, through their treaty and some treaty funding, with our issues. Our band and our community is here in have maintained a political, social and economic con- Vancouver or Prince George," or wherever it is, and yet nection in Terrace, and they are looking to develop the they don't have the resources in the same way. same thing in Vancouver. That would be one example. The other critique that I hear is that they don't have I know other First Nations — the Gitxsan, for ex- voices at the tables that are having the discussion around ample — also will gather in a place like Vancouver where the issues that will begin to bring some of the resolve their members are. So in some cases those traditions are around issues for First Nations in British Columbia. As maintained despite being away from the reserve setting. those issues get discussed and evolved — and resolved, The second thing I would say in respect of this is that we all hope — this community, which is so significant, the friendship centres, I think, provide a general area of does not have voices at that table, and they want those support or home for collegiality between First Nations voices. regardless of what the band background might be. They I certainly would be the first one to say that I under- do play that important role. I've never heard of the stand the complexity of this and the challenge in doing friendship centres having any particular band affiliation. this and that there's nothing easy about it, but there's It's always pretty general. So that has offered up some got to be some way to address this very real question opportunity for First Nations to engage with other First about how this group of people, whether it's in fact or Nations — I'm sure some from the same background, not, feel alienated from a process that's about protecting some from other backgrounds — as they gather at the their culture. We know that's important because, as the gathering centres at the friendship centres. minister says…. A third point. Formerly, the provincial government He talks about the need to provide opportunities and the federal government largely related politically to and education for these young people to move forward, off-reserve urban aboriginals through an organization and the leaders in the communities in Vancouver and that I know that the member is familiar with, the United Prince George and the elders would say: "We want that Native Nations. to happen, but at the same time we want it to happen in That organization is, I guess, somewhere between a culturally reflective way that ensures that they don't either deeply troubled and defunct right now. I'm not lose their culture." That's part of the discussion too, and sure it's functional. I think it's effectively moribund. I know that the government has been conscious of that. Hopefully, it will recover at some point. I thought they The question I have is: how does the minister or the had very good leadership at a time, but I know they've government see getting at this question of this majority, been beset by some internal issues which have troubled 6182 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

them. But the way in which governments tended to work child welfare system for aboriginal communities. I do with urban aboriginals was through that. know — I'm sure the minister is aware as well — that I think that the other really important part of the First Nations and aboriginal communities for many shift that is occurring is the challenge that not onlyF irst years have been saying that the funding coming from Nations and aboriginal people have but is reflective the federal government is inadequate. We do know that broadly of all British Columbia. I was talking to some that money does channel through the province to First colleagues from the interior of British Columbia who, Nations communities. like me, have a few kids. In every case our kids have Very recently the Minister of Children and Family decided, obviously, of their own volition, to go to uni- Development was on the Aboriginal Peoples Television versity and to get jobs and so on in the Lower Mainland Network and commented about the fact that the B.C. and southern Vancouver Island. government has been going after the federal govern- [1755] ment, after Minister Strahl, on this inequity in funding. I think that in many respects, aboriginal First Nations I would just like to know if the minister could perhaps kids are no different than my kids or anybody else's kids. elaborate on that to tell us the progress that's being made, They see the excitement, the opportunity that comes if any, and if there's going to be further pursuit of that. with these large centres, and it's often difficult to- per I understand that a letter was sent in November of suade them that they can or should be a part of the rural 2009 to the federal minister and that, as of the airing of experience rather than the urban one. this show, there had not been a successful meeting with That's not just indicative ofB .C. That'sC anada. That's the federal minister. I would like to know what is hap- the world. I think that's been the trend now for a hun- pening on this file and if the minister can talk about the dred years — urbanization — and there are no signs of future plans for this and the long-term implications of that changing anytime soon. inadequate funding from INAC to the province. I know that the member may not ask another ques- [1800] tion in this area, and I wanted to end on what I think is a positive note. The recent Environics Institute poll was Hon. G. Abbott: I'll do my best to answer this. I'm very counterintuitive to what one might expect these certainly familiar with it, not to the extent, though, answers would be in a poll of urban aboriginal people that the Minister of Children and Family Development across Canada. Based on the report's findings, B.C. is would be. We're very much supportive of their efforts to faring quite well. try to improve INAC funding to the province of British For example, in Vancouver — and this is in relation Columbia, particularly in support of child protection. to First Nations aboriginal people — 86 percent re- My understanding is that through the processes the fed- port excellent to good health. Their satisfaction with eral government has created, it has resulted in a situation city life is rated very high. Aboriginal cultural activ- in some provinces, and I think that Alberta would be one ities are regularly available, and Vancouver is rated high example, where there is greater funding than is received there. Most are likely to say they have many close non- in British Columbia. They're gradually implementing, asI aboriginal friends. Most are likely to say they are happy. understand it, a delegated agency model for children and Rates of employment are the highest, at 71 percent, and family wellness councils, etc. Again, appreciate that I'm Vancouver is one of the top three cities where urban ab- not the expert here, but I did co-sign a letter from the original people are most likely to be satisfied with their minister to the federal minister encouraging them to try jobs and more likely than average to report they are in to resolve this situation. excellent to good health. In terms of update, we understand that there may be All of that is very positive. Again, I don't throw that in some additional funding for prevention models in the to be dismissive of the very real challenges that exist on most recent federal budget. We are still attempting to the Downtown Eastside and elsewhere in the province ascertain, and their ministry is still attempting to as- of British Columbia in relation to urban aboriginals, but certain, what portion of that will find its way to British I think of it as indication that relatively speaking, urban Columbia. aboriginals are finding their feet and are, in some cases, thriving in the urban environment. M. Karagianis: I will watch that keenly to see if, in We need to continue all of the work that we've been fact, that comes to pass from the federal government, talking about in these estimates to try to ensure that that because that would be good news indeed. pattern continues and that we can say happily someday, In the interest of time, I'll not pursue further questions. before we all die, that we in fact have equality of oppor- I appreciate that it's not the minister's main file here, but tunity in this great province we call British Columbia. I did know that as a co-signator to that, he would have some information. M. Karagianis: I wanted to ask a direct question I want to just briefly touch on another issue here. The here about federal funding, INAC funding, for the minister is familiar with a private member's bill that I Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6183

have submitted to the House on numerous occasions B. Simpson: I appreciate the minister dealing with around heritage protection. A recent article appeared those questions. We've got about 40 minutes or so left, in the Times Colonist newspaper where the Minister of and I do want to touch on some things. I've been delib- Tourism, Culture and the Arts commented on that. erately not getting into the nitty-gritty of the ministry, I'm not necessarily going to go into his comments because I think it's been carrying forward this way in on that, other than to say that the Minister of Tourism, some fashion. There's a bit of a reorganization of the Culture and the Arts did admit that the existing provi- vote appropriation that I, hopefully, will get a question sions in the Heritage Conservation Act are not adequate in on, but I wanted to spend a little bit of time just tidy- for protection of aboriginal sites and artifacts. And cer- ing up some of the questions we had about treaty and tainly, First Nations communities know that. some things that are now evolving. The minister made reference to an internal committee But I want to state on the record again, in response to of government officials and aboriginal representatives the minister's final response to me about meeting with that had been put together to look into this. I have been the First Nations Energy Council and what they're say- familiar with ongoing reference to this committee for ing about revenue-sharing and the First Nations trust in many years, actually, but this one refers specifically to the bill…. The minister also knows that the statement perhaps a new one. I know the leadership council had that they've made to government is that they think the some initiatives underway, and perhaps this committee, lack of consultation flies in the face of the new relation- which apparently was launched in November of 2009, ship and that what consultation did occur ended up may have more direct action that they're taking. getting watered down and not included in the act. So Could the minister just update us on the progress of we're going to have to wait and see what the outcome is that and perhaps address whether or not the government later on. But it goes to the whole issue of consultation. would even have an interest in taking the bill themselves The minister also stated that there's a difference and resubmitting it with their own additions to it and between bills of general application and specific applica- their own power behind it? tion, and that triggers different kinds of consultation.B ut again, even in the First Nations woodland act that was Hon. G. Abbott: Thank you to the member for her brought forward…. The First Nations Forestry Council question. The area of heritage conservation is a remark- has called a summit together in conjunction with the ably challenging one. I had responsibility for it for a time, energy council to talk about the failure of consultation and it is very challenging. around that particular thing as well. So consultation is [1805] an enigma, and it was one of the things that the new re- The government, as the member recognized, is at- lationship process was attempting to redress. tempting, in consultation with First Nations, to try to I just want to go to the First Nations trust very quickly. develop ways of improving the policy framework here. The First Nations trust was established by an act of the We have, as the member noted, established a joint Legislature — $100 million. It was part of the new rela- working group on First Nation heritage conservation — tionship's unfolding. It was in order to foster the new which we'll call the working group — to identify First relationship. I just want some clarification on the pub- Nations issues and develop options or make recommen- lic record of the government's relationship to that trust, dations to, first of all, create a more meaningful role for post–its enactment, given that the parties now to the First Nations in provincial heritage conservation, im- new relationship agreement are trying to figure things prove the protection and conservation of First Nations out. heritage sites and human remains and provide for the The trust, I know, is established. It's a stand-alone protection of sacred and spiritual sites or areas. entity. It does its own reporting. But what is the govern- In 2009 the working group was revitalized with the ap- ment's relation to that? Is it reporting to the government? pointment of Peter Walters, who is from the Ministry of Is it reporting to the public? Does the government have Tourism, Culture and the Arts, as provincial lead, while any involvement in the trust at all? it is expected that Judith Sayers of the Hupacasath First [1810] Nation will continue to lead on behalf of the First Nations. Both leaders are supported by a number of representa- Hon. G. Abbott: The new relationship trust is a com- tives from the province, including the provincial staff of pletely independent organization. British Columbia the archaeology branch, Ministry of Tourism, Culture does appoint two members to the board of the trust, and the Arts, and MARR staff. That work will continue. but it is independent. It develops a three-year strategic Will the group or the ministry adopt the thoughtful plan wherein they lay out their objectives, programs and and constructive suggestions contained in the private so on. There is an annual reporting to the public, and I member's bill that's been put forward? Anything of receive a copy of the report. I'm sure that many other thoughtful value can always be stolen for beneficial societal people receive a copy of the report, and the report would purposes, and your bill may be one of those. be universally available online at the website. 6184 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

B. Simpson: I have looked at that report. Part of the very early on, but I think the trust is generally steering reason for raising this is partly in the context of the in the right direction in terms of trying to improve out- urban aboriginal questions that one of my colleagues comes for First Nations. asked, because the vast majority of the trust fund, again, [1815] goes back to the more reserve- or land base–oriented projects, etc. We've had questions from the executive B. Simpson: I did go through the trust documentation directors council for urban aboriginal groups about and looked at that. There are also some interesting ones their ability to access quite a large First Nations fund. about facilitating lobbying of government to get shares The other is my own curiosity. The minister andI had of gaming revenue. There are various other things that a discussion with another piece of legislation about First are in there as well. Nations languages and the act that came forward there Some of the discussion that I have had with some and the need for immediate action on that front. I note First Nations…. I know that it's an early process. It's new. in the trust's documentation that there is some work be- They're figuring it out. But the application process, the ing done around culture and languages. alignment of priorities…. I think you get that when you I'm just wondering if the government has the capacity, institutionalize a trust and institutionalize an organiza- with its two members or in some other way, of sitting tion in a general case. But I was just curious about the down and making sure that the alignment of priorities government's residual abilities to kind of influence the for the trust is actually meeting emerging needs and trust if there are emerging priorities, and the minister not just simply vested in what was the new relationship has answered that question. document, which was more around rights, title, accom- Back to treaty, and there are some things I want to modation agreements, consultation, etc., on the land tidy up just on treaty, if I could. One of the fundamen- base side of the issue. tal differences between treaty and the success that the I'll leave that with the minister. I'm not sure if the government is having on some of its reconciliation agree- minister or the government has conduits to possibly be ments, incremental treaties, etc., is that treaty, effectively, looking at that. Given our fiscal constraints, that's a large if you can get there, establishes a different degree of cer- sum of money sitting there that may — and I don't know tainty. Ultimately, that's why, you know, Jock Finlayson if it is — be open to reorientation of priorities. recently made comment about that being how you get to some certainty in terms of investment, etc., that you Hon. G. Abbott: The trust is independent. They make want to try to drive the treaty process. their own decisions. There are opportunities to certainly As we were canvassing on Monday, there are ques- convey the provincial point of view through the two tions about whether the treaty process needs a real good representatives we have on the board. shot in the arm and to be revitalized. There's the work I would also note that I had the opportunity to meet of the common table. I was trying to get clarity from the with the trust a few months ago, and we had a very good minister around whether or not the province has sub- meeting. Again, I laid out where I thought the province mitted a response. of British Columbia was going in terms of trying to build I subsequently talked to some of the First Nations on initiatives in the area of shared decision-making and leaders. They indicated that there was a response of resource-sharing and building capacity and health and some sort. It wasn't as detailed as what they had hoped education and so on. It was a very useful meeting, and I for from either level of government, but the provincial hope we can continue to have the very good relationship government, in particular, has indicated some of its pri- we've had with the trust and have their spending oppor- orities for some of the work of the common table. tunities be one of the ways in which we can strategically I went back and looked at the Hansard, and the min- advance some of the province's goals. ister did mention a treaty revitalization committee that's I am pleased with a lot of the work that they do. These underway. I wonder if I could get a little bit more clar- are just some of the examples of recent spending by the ity on that. What is the nature of that committee? How trust: $1.5 million in scholarships for 240 post-secondary is it going to be working, relative to the recommenda- students and $1 million annually for language programs tions and the work of the common table, and what are managed through the First Peoples Heritage, Language its priorities? and Culture Council. That's very important, and as the member noted, we did talk about that recently. I think that Hon. G. Abbott: The treaty revitalization table con- is excellent support from the trust. There was $1.2 million sists of representatives from the First Nations Summit to First Nation communities for planning and $1 million from British Columbia. Mr. Paine — or, as we affection- to develop First Nations economic development plan. ately call him, Dr. Paine — on my left, is a member of I know the trust is looking at different ways they can that table and a representative from Canada as well. assist in advancing opportunities for economic develop- The purpose of the treaty revitalization table is to ment, equity interest and so on. Some of that work is examine process issues that may be impeding progress Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6185

under the British Columbia treaty process. The treaty understanding from the officials involved is that it has revitalization senior officials group agreed that the been constructive talk. But that's not to say that the an- topics for discussion should be dealt with in the following swers are easy. I'm certain they're not. order of priority. The first is one that the member has noted is of par- B. Simpson: If they were, I think that there'd be a ticular concern, and that is financing treaty negotiations lot more progress on a number of fronts. They are very — that is a big issue and a growing and important issue complicated issues, as we've said a number of times. I as- — then capacity to negotiate and implement treaties; sume that the other priorities will have that same kind process for addressing overlapping claims and shared of impetus to them as well. The debt….O ne does have a territories; interim measures and incremental treaty clock ticking down. agreements; streamlining, as in negotiation processes; One of the things that we all know is that the Treaty and confidentiality agreements and the role of the B.C. Commission have done a good job of labelling this "un- Treaty Commission. finished business." They have the PricewaterhouseCoopers [1820] report about the unrealized investment potential to the province. B. Simpson: I guess the feedback I got from every- [1825] body that I've talked to is that there's a lot of talking I would argue that if we look at resource develop- going on. It seems like the easiest way to avoid address- ment over the next little while, First Nations have found ing an issue is to put another group together and have their voice, and they'll exercise it in one way or another, them go and discuss it. whether that's direct action, litigation, cutting deals with You've got the common table that actually spent sig- the government, or bogging the whole process down or nificant time trying to decide on what the critical issues cutting deals with the third party as well. So it is an issue were. The federal and provincial governments went away that needs to be resolved. with a promise to come back and respond and to get on With that then, I note a statement in the general budget with some of that. I guess the response is to convene a that "as the province enters a new decade, it must ensure its group of people to go and start working on the issues on financial resources are focused on those areas that reflect a priority basis. tomorrow's needs." That was the starting comment for the re- Does this group have a timeline? Does it have re- alignment of some of the funding from the natural resource sources? For example, on the financing, a big chunk of ministries — $320 million coming out of those ministries. that, of course, is the debt load that is incurred and the It's a twofold question, and I'm truncating because rationalization of that debt load. A lot of First Nations of time. One is that in that realignment there wasn't an end up being stuck in the treaty process. They may pre- infusion of additional dollars to see if we could move fer to take alternative routes, but then the debt comes beyond breakthrough table approaches to putting more due if they decide to formally walk away. resources to a broader range of tables to see if we could Let's take that one example. Is that time-lined? Will move the treaty process forward. it be resourced? Will there be a definitive resolution to Does the minister believe that there's a sort of re- that particular issue in a timely fashion? You know, we source allocation issue that lies behind this — that if we could do each of the priorities that way, but is that the had the ability to put more negotiators, some mediation way that this group is going to work, where they actually services, more capacity-building, that if it was one of get the job done? the government's priorities to get on with economic de- velopment in the province, additional resources could Hon. G. Abbott: The member rightly has identified actually start to get more breakthrough tables and more what is one of the principle concerns of the revitaliza- resolution and certainty? tion table, and that is the issue of treaty financing. The The second part of my question on this has to do loan authorities, all things being equal, come due on with whether or not the realignment of resources out of March 2011, so that's not that far away. There is much natural resource ministries may actually run counter, be- discussion continuing to occur in the renewal of those. cause in actual resource ministries the treaty process for Should it come in the form of loans or contributions or reconciliation agreements, etc…. You depend on those whatever? ministries to actually be able to do a lot of the on-the- Right now it is federal loans that are in question. I ground work, find the resources and do the mapping. mean, to a degree it is a federal issue, because it's their The Minister of Forests even admitted that there may loans that are out there and, in some cases, may or may be some problems with the First Nations woodland li- not be returned through successful treaty negotiations. cences because the mapping work all has to be done. At That having been said, it is everyone's concern. We want the same time he took a couple of hundred people out of the treaty process to continue effectively, and this is a big his own ministry and is taking $230 million out of that issue that has to be resolved. So yes, there is talk, but my ministry. 6186 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

I appreciate the minister's patience with me, but it's not impaired our ability to either proceed through treaty twofold: with a realignment of resources and an infusion discussions or to implement treaties. of resources, could we actually see faster progress? And on the flipside of it, by realigning out of the natural re- B. Simpson: I have to reflect,I guess, on the minister's sources ministries, are we actually undermining to a answer. As I go around talking to the Nazko, for example, certain extent some of the work that needs to get done they're indicating that the length of time between their to make that happen? table convening and all of that stuff…. When they do get [1830] to a certain stage of readiness, there is a desire to move a bit faster, maintaining the consistency of negotiators, Hon. G. Abbott: So the member's first question really etc. But I appreciate the minister's candid and forthright was: with a greater resource allocation, could there be a reply on that, and it's something that I think we need to beneficial impact on the progress of treaty negotiation explore over the next little while. in the province. We think that, I guess, generally the an- We have a resource allocation issue, and we've got swer is no. We believe there are no resource issues that about five minutes left before the Chair starts telling are impeding our ability to work through to achieving us to note the time. I've got two quick areas I'd like to treaties or agreements which may be related to or incre- canvass. One is that there's a new degree of frustra- mental to treaties. tion, I think, that is occurring. That's a lot of the context We'd say that for a number of reasons. I guess the first around the discussion we had about the new relation- would be that we are one of three partners who help to ship, the discussion around the treaty process and how determine whether there's going to be a successful treaty. difficult it is. We work with the willing, and often the willing are self- The MiningA ssociation has indicated that treaties are identified. our number one issue for them, or certainty on the land I've even, in the short time I've been Minister of base. I indicated that Jock Finlayson of the B.C. Business Aboriginal Relations here, had meetings with First Council and the New Relationship Business Group came Nations who say: "No, we really want to move. We're together. That's one area where there's a desire for cer- tired of spinning our wheels. We want to get to a con- tainty, and they think it's going as slow as molasses to clusion." Typically, they're sincere about that. When we get there. hear that, we try to move things along just as quickly as [1835] the First Nation is comfortable with. I'm more just curious about MARR's role this time in In the end I think that we all have to recognize that addressing these. We have seen a couple things happen it's important the First Nations are proceeding at a pace recently that may be the beginning of another reflection that they're comfortable with, that their community of that frustration. One is the Ahousaht and Catface, members are comfortable with — that they can hold where the Ahousaht basically said: "Look, it's our area. community meetings and explain where they're going If we want to develop it, we're going to develop it, and and why, and so on. everybody else leave us alone." Often it's not just the First Nation. We talked — I I met with the Chief of Cape Mudge — a similar kind guess it was Monday, when we had our last discussion — of scenario, where "we're going to put an aquaculture that fish…. The federal government tends to be often the venture where we think an aquaculture venture goes, biggest barrier to getting across the goal line with treaty. and nobody can tell us differently." Everybody is working hard to try to address that, but So there's that kind of thing. Then there's a situation that's probably one of the big sorts of facts of life in terms that I'm sure the minister is fully briefed on, with the of the rate of treaties or the rate of progress on treaties. Tsleil-Waututh and their stewardship fees. The concern So I think the answer to the question is no. I was just it's raised is that if the federal and provincial govern- looking at the list of approved final agreements, final ments don't actively intervene and somehow redress the agreements that are in the final stages of negotiation, fact that local governments have to start paying First agreement-in-principle offers and incremental treaty Nations that haven't dealt with their territorial claims, agreements, and that list is more expansive than it has etc., out of frustration by development and economic ac- ever been in the history of the province. We're not feel- tivity happening on their traditional territories, they're ing like we're constrained by resources on that side of it. just going to start charging people. The member also asked a question about whether That's problematic.I know the local government table we were feeling that any of the expenditure reductions on treaty has put a substantive brief to the government or budget reductions in our colleague resource minis- about this issue and is looking for redress. It's a compli- tries were having any impact on our ability to get work cated issue. My question is actually a fairly simply one. done related to treaty. The answer, at least to this point, Is it MARR that this comes to? Is it MARR that tries is no. There certainly are some challenges which the re- to figure out a way through these things, or does it go source ministries are wrestling with, but to date it has somewhere else in the government? Wednesday, June 2, 2010 British Columbia Debates 6187

Hon. G. Abbott: There are a few aspects to the observa- of these are new paths to reconciliation, and they are tions and questions which were posed by the critic. I'll new paths to the economic expansion and diversifica- begin with the Nazko. I'm advised that we similarly are im- tion of British Columbia for the benefit of all British pressed by the resolve and the positive constructive Columbians, including First Nations. approach that Nazko is taking at the treaty table. I'm also I don't necessarily agree that treaties are essential to advised that the preliminary challenge there is that the federal achieve that goal. They're helpful, but they're not es- government does not yet have a mandate for the Nazko table. sential. There are other paths, and we are committed to We want to work with the Nazko First Nation to see if exploring those many paths. there's some way we can work with them and build on that very positive and constructive approach that they B. Simpson: This will be my final question. My thanks are taking towards these negotiations. Potentially, we to staff. I know they all have busy days, and the work is could explore things like incremental treaty agreements accumulating while they're sitting in here and allowing and that sort of thing, because it would be unfortunate if the minister and me to have this dialogue. that enthusiasm being exhibited at the treaty table is not It's been an important dialogue. It has certainly got a bit in some way rewarded. We want to do that. more clarity on where we're at, and I continue to offer our The member references Ahousaht and the emerging support as the government moves forward on this import- controversy around Catface Mountain and Cape Mudge ant file. I think it's important to all British Columbians and some of the current conflict that is evident between that we do get some resolution to these things. I appreci- the regional district and its foreshore zoning and the ate the open door, and it works both ways. aspirations of the Cape Mudge band to enhance and de- My final question to the minister is something that velop their aquaculture industry. I've been trying to figure out over a number of min- [1840] istries. It's the whole issue of where the First Nation I think while at one level those are a challenge, be- communities are around the fire work that needs to get cause they potentially involve conflict between local done — the interface fuel management, the fire plans, government or governments and the aspirations of First all of that. I know they're trying to get some clarification Nations, at another level it's a very positive thing. It indi- on where that will be funded. As the minister may well cates that First Nations are wanting to move, and move know, because of the federal funding disappearing, they forward quickly, to greater economic development have been rolled into just being in the queue with what- within their traditional territory — in the case of Cape ever is available through UBCM and others. Mudge, into a development of aquaculture resources Is the minister aware of any work that's done in his right off their own Indian reserves. ministry to try and release some of the promised federal It's hard not to feel some sympathy for them as they dollars to fast-track the work in interface fire? With that, attempt to build economic capacity and build economic I'll look forward to the minister's response, and that con- and employment opportunities for their young people cludes my part of the debate. and their members — that they are constrained from doing that. It's a double-edged sword, as we love to say Hon. G. Abbott: Noting the hour, the business of in the world of politics. fireproofing communities, including aboriginal com- Our role in government is, like I said, at one level to pro- munities, is not something that's been sort of front and vide coordination between the various ministries that may centre or central to our ministry. be interacting with First Nations. We are also — and this [1845] is one of the really delightful things about the ministry — That work is being undertaken, I understand, princi- problem-solvers for government in relation to First Nations pally by the Ministry of Forests and Range assisted by issues. Not every ministry can have the same kind of con- the office of the fire commissioner. Were we requested to gregation of resources around First Nations, so we work act in any sort of coordinating or liaison role with a First with them when problems emerge to try to resolve them. Nation, we'd be happy to do that, but that hasn't been I guess a final point in relation to the questions and ob- the case to this point. It has been principally MOFR and servations of the member is that I don't share the view that the fire commissioner who've been doing that work. treaties are essential to certainty on the land base. We've I'd also like to say thank you, in conclusion, hon. Chair. talked about those earlier in estimates. For many, many I want to thank the members who have asked their very reasons treaties can be a positive and constructive element thoughtful and constructive questions during our estimates in the world of aboriginal relations, but certainty on the debate. I agree with the critic that this has been a very use- land base doesn't have to have full treaty to provide for it. ful and interesting process, and I do appreciate the way in That's why we want to continue to build on revenue- which the critic has managed his role. It's quite startlingly sharing, particularly through the ECDAs, the economic unusual in this place, but we're able to sit down and chat community development agreements; the strategic en- about the issues of the day. I've appreciated having that gagement agreements; the reconciliation protocols. All relationship with the critic, and I thank him for that. 6188 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, June 2, 2010

Also, I want to take a moment to thank the staff of the Vote 11: ministry operations, $29,905,000 — ap- Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation for proved. the great work they do each and every year, each and every day of the year. The last year has been a very exciting one, Vote 12: treaty and other agreements funding, and I know that the next year is going to be exciting. One $5,927,000 — approved. of the reasons why we are making such great progress is that I enjoy the support of such remarkably capable, in- Hon. G. Abbott: I move the committee rise, report telligent, experienced, devoted, committed and awesome resolutions and ask leave to sit again. people in the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations. I want to thank them for the great work they do, and thank you for Motion approved. your patience as you eagerly await the final resolution of these matters, Mr. Chair. The committee rose at 6:48 p.m.

Appendix

Amendment to Bill 20 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 3), 2010

[SECTION 52 (a), as it amends section 10 (1) of the Greenhouse Gas Reduction (Renewable and Low Carbon Fuel Requirements) Act, by deleting the text shown as struck out and adding the text shown as underlined: 52 Section 10 is amended (a) in subsection (1) by striking out everything after "the following formula:" and substituting the following:

sum of (EER × EC for each fuel) administrative penalty = (actual CI − required CI) × − NE + NE × PR [ 1,000,000 credit increase]

where actual CI = the weighted average of the carbon intensities of all Part 3 fuels supplied by the Part 3 fuel supplier in the compliance period before taking into account notional emissions under section 8; required CI = the prescribed level of carbon intensity for the compliance period; EC = energy content of a fuel; EER = energy efficiency effectiveness ratio;

NEcredit = notional emissions credited under section 8;

NEincrease = notional emissions increased under section 8 PR = the penalty rate prescribed by regulation;, and] Hansard Services

Director Jo-Anne Kern

Manager of Print Production Robert Sutherland

Post-Production Team Leader Christine Fedoruk

Editorial Team Leaders Laurel Bernard, Janet Brazier, Robyn Swanson

Senior Editor — Galleys Heather Bright

Technical Operations Officers Pamela Holmes, Emily Jacques, Dan Kerr

Indexers Shannon Ash, Julie McClung, Robin Rohrmoser

Researchers Jaime Apolonio, Mike Beninger

Editors Anton Baer, Aaron Ellingsen, Deirdre Gotto, Margaret Gracie, Jane Grainger, Betsy Gray, Iris Gray, Linda Guy, Barb Horricks, Bill Hrick, Paula Lee, Nicole Lindsay, Donna McCloskey, Bob McIntosh, Anne Maclean, Constance Maskery, Jill Milkert, Lind Miller, Lou Mitchell, Karol Morris, Dorothy Pearson, Erik Pedersen, Peggy Pedersen, Janet Pink, Amy Reiswig, Heather Warren, Arlene Wells, Glenn Wigmore

Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker.

Printing Agent Crown Publications, Queen's Printer for British Columbia 563 Superior St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 9V7 Toll-Free: 1-800-663-6105 telephone: (250) 387-6409 Fax: (250) 387-1120 e-mail: [email protected]

Rates Single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $398. GST extra.

www.leg.bc.ca

Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet. Question Period podcasts are available on the Internet.