Wednesday Volume 690 10 March 2021 No. 187

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 10 March 2021 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2021 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 845 10 MARCH 2021 846

Secretary of State, have similar powers? If not, what House of Commons will be the role of the Scottish Government in these trade talks? Wednesday 10 March 2021 Mr Jack: It is a pity that the hon. Gentleman could not bring himself to welcome the suspension of the US The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock tariffs, in the same way that the has not welcomed any of our trade deals, but maybe he PRAYERS and his colleagues have other things on their mind at the moment. also noticed that he did not raise separation, for the first time in my almost two years at the Dispatch [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Box—always separation, but not today. I think he has Virtual participation in proceedings commenced finally thrown that broken record away. We consult the (Orders, 4 June and 30 December 2020). Scottish Government on these trade deals, but they are [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] a reserved matter and they are for the whole . As I stressed in my earlier answer, they will be very beneficial for the Scottish agrifoods industry. Oral Answers to Questions David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con): I congratulate my right hon. Friend and, particularly, the Secretary of State for International SCOTLAND Trade on their relentless efforts to remove the unjustified and penal US tariffs on whisky and cashmere, which The Secretary of State was asked— have been so damaging. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, whatever now happens in relation to the New Free Trade Agreements Airbus-Boeing dispute, there can be no return to arbitrary retaliatory tariffs on unrelated industries, and that the Tim Loughton (East and Shoreham) (Con): decoupling of whisky and other products from that What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues dispute must be permanent? on the potential opportunities for Scotland arising from new free trade agreements. [913074] Mr Jack: I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend. The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): The UK Government will continue to engage with the I regularly discuss with my Cabinet colleagues opportunities US to agree a fair settlement to the dispute and permanently for Scotland arising from the signing of trade deals. remove these punitive tariffs, and that will be a deal that This Government have already struck deals with more works for the whole United Kingdom. This agreement than 65 countries around the world worth £217 billion a just shows that the UK and the US are determined to year, including with Canada, Japan and Singapore, with work together, and I look forward to seeing us strengthen many more to come. This will create new markets for that partnership. Scotland’s exporters, including for our world-leading Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con) [V]: The Secretary of food and drink sector. State knows how welcome the suspension of tariffs has Tim Loughton: I congratulate the Government on the been in Moray, with its many malt whisky distilleries recentagreementwiththeUSAdministrationonsuspending and, of course, Johnstons of Elgin, which produces tariffs on a number of key quality UK goods, in particular outstanding cashmere products. Will he outline what Scotch. May I ask the Secretary of State how much that the Scotland Office and, indeed, the whole UK Government will be worth to the Scottish economy, and will he will do to ensure that this four-month suspension becomes confirm that this benefit for Scotland would not have a permanent removal of those damaging tariffs? happened if the UK were still in the EU or a customs union, as the SNP has advocated, rather than having Mr Jack: I know that my hon. Friend has more become an independent trading nation? distilleries in his constituency than any other Member of Parliament—47, I think—and I also know that he Mr Jack: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is has been a great champion for the industry and has brilliant news for the Scotch whisky industry, in the pressed very hard for the removal of the 25% tariff. We same week that the Chancellor announced a freeze on are very pleased to have negotiated an agreement that alcohol duty.The UK Government have fought incredibly suspends the tariffs. We now have a space of four hard on this issue, petitioning the highest levels of the months to find a resolution on what has been a 16-year-long US Administration to remove these tariffs, which were dispute. The Secretary of State for International Trade harming our Scottish exports. is ready to engage with the US trade representative, Katherine Tai, to agree something that is fair and balanced Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP) [V]: just as soon as the Senate confirms her appointment. During the comprehensive economic and trade agreement talks between the EU and Canada, little Wallonia, as Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con) [V]: As a proud Scot part of Belgium, managed to block the agreement until and one of the Prime Minister’s trade envoys, I was the concerns of its Parliament were resolved. Meanwhile, delighted by last week’s announcement that the Secretary the Canadian state legislatures were in the next room to of State and the Department for International Trade the Canadian federal delegation during those negotiations, have secured a deal to remove export tariffs on Scotch putting their case. Will Scotland, with the most powerful whisky and a whole number of other products for sale Parliament in the world, as we are always told by the to the United States. What estimate does my right 847 Oral Answers 10 MARCH 2021 Oral Answers 848 hon. Friend make of the trade and investment benefits decade of tackling climate change. We are working resulting from Scotland’s continued membership of the with the Scottish Government and other devolved Union? Administrations to ensure an inclusive and ambitious summit for the whole of the UK. All parts of the UK Mr Jack: This deal will be welcomed by businesses on will have important roles to play in ensuring the summit’s both sides of the Atlantic because it will hopefully bring success: not just the devolved Administrations and the an end to harmful tit-for-tat tariffs. I agree with my hon. constituent nations, but my hon. Friend’s constituency; Friend, but to add to the point, the rest of the United the town of Milton Keynes has the largest number of Kingdom continues to be Scotland’s largest market for electric vehicle charging points, if I am not mistaken. So exports. It accounts for more than 60% of all Scotland’s it is truly a UK-wide initiative. trade. COP26 Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP) [V]: Dear me, Mr Speaker. Scotland is already a Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con): What recent world leader in climate change policy,be it with renewables discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the providing over 90% of supply, home energy efficiency, potential opportunities for Scotland arising from COP26. take-up of electric cars and an impressive charging [913075] network, or continuous investment in electric buses and rail electrification. In fact, the RAIL magazine editor (Milton Keynes North) (Con): What recent said: discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the potential opportunities for Scotland arising from COP26. “Scotland’s admirable rolling programme of electrification rolls on…well done Scotland. DfT please note this is how it’s [913082] done.” The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland Does the Minister not therefore agree that Scottish (David Duguid): The Secretary of State has regular representatives should be given a key place at COP26 to discussions with Cabinet colleagues on the opportunities share our experience, or are they just too embarrassed COP26 offers Scotland, including through the COP26 by UK policies by comparison? Devolved Administrations Ministerial Group. The group brings together the COP President, territorial Secretaries David Duguid: I agree that Scottish stakeholders, of State and Ministers from the devolved Administrations Scottish businesses and a lot of the renewable energies to support the delivery of an inclusive and welcoming being developed in Scotland are world-leading. I could COP26 summit in Glasgow. not possibly disagree with that, but it is important to recognise as well that all parts of the United Kingdom Sarah Atherton [V]: Over the past year, many of our have an important role to play in ensuring the success of national celebrations have been curtailed due to covid. the summit. I am sure the hon. Gentleman is as delighted Companies that have accrued decades of specialist event as I am that the summit is to be held in Glasgow, management skills have been severely compromised and representing the whole of the UK around the world. risk collapse. However, COP26, with its opening and closing ceremonies, offers the opportunity to showcase Covid-19: Support for Scottish Businesses the splendour, heritage and culture of our four nations, our one Union. Does my hon. Friend agree that events Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): What companies and charities, such as the Royal Edinburgh assessment he has made of the effectiveness of economic Military Tattoo, have all that is required to show the support for Scottish businesses during the covid-19 world what a good Scottish hooley looks like? outbreak. [913076] David Duguid: I completely agree with that last point. The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): Certainly, the Royal Edinburgh Military Tattoo, if you Last week’s Budget provides continued UK-wide support have not seen it yourself, Mr Speaker, is a sight to and security to manage the ongoing impacts of covid-19. behold. We are working closely in partnership with the One in three jobs in Scotland have been supported by Scottish Government and a range of partners to assess the UK Government’sunprecedented employment support the implications of covid-19 for COP26. We want to package. Scottish businesses have benefited from more showcase the best of the UK at COP26 and have than £3.5 billion of loans and support, driven by UK recently concluded a process for stakeholders to express Government schemes. We have also provided a much- their interest in being involved in UK Government-managed needed boost by extending the reduction of VAT for spaces to support our objective of making COP26 our tourism and hospitality sectors. inclusive and representative of the whole United Kingdom. Alun Cairns [V]: Does my right hon. Friend agree Ben Everitt: Last week’s Budget showed how we will that the benefits of the Union of four nations have build back greener from this pandemic, delivering a really come to the fore over the last 12 months, in that green industrial revolution that benefits every single the strength of the UK Government’s balance sheet has corner of every single nation in our awesome foursome meant not only that families, businesses and individuals of the United Kingdom, including millions to transform in all parts of the UK have been able to benefit from Scotland into a green energy hub. Does my hon. Friend that strength, but that the devolved Administrations agree that COP26 is the ideal opportunity for the have received the resources that they need to support Government of the UK and the Government of Scotland people in all parts of the country? to work together to showcase our green credentials? Mr Jack: My right hon. Friend is absolutely correct David Duguid: Of course I agree with my hon. Friend. and, more importantly,the majority of people in Scotland COP26 will be the moment that we secure our path to agree with him. Not only did they emphatically reject global net zero emissions by 2050 and define the next independence in 2014, but the most recent opinion polls 849 Oral Answers 10 MARCH 2021 Oral Answers 850 show that they have realised that neither the Scottish people and is nearly 10% of the Scottish economy, but National party nor its leader can be trusted, and that despite its importance, it was not included in the independencewouldmakeeveryoneinScotlandsignificantly deal at all. Will the Secretary of State guarantee today worse off. that the sector will get a much needed post-covid boost by ensuring that the memorandum of understanding on Mr Speaker: We now come to the shadow Secretary financial services, which is due to be signed in a matter of State for the first of two questions. of days with the EU, gives this critical industry the equivalence and access to EU markets that it was promised Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I am sure that by this Government? the Secretary of State would like to join me—I am sure he accidentally omitted it—in congratulating Mr Jack: The UK and the EU have agreed in a joint on becoming leader of the party, the declaration to establish structured regulatory co-operation very first ethnic minority leader of any UK political for the financial services industry. A memorandum of party. I am sure that his positivity and optimism will undertaking will be agreed in discussions between us transform Scotland when compared with what we have and the EU to establish a framework. Those discussions at the moment. are currently ongoing at official level, but as with the Brexit negotiations, we cannot give a running commentary. Business covid support in Scotland has been sporadic at best, and I hope that the Government will tell us how we will get a full transparent audit from the Scottish Union Connectivity Review Government, following the Audit Scotland report last week that estimated that £2.7 billion was unspent, not (Delyn) (Con): What recent discussions including the £1.2 billion from last week’s Budget. he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the Union Every penny needs to be spent now. connectivity review. [913077] This Government talk a lot, as we have heard already, about a post-covid levelling-up green agenda, yet they John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) are pursuing a policy in offshore renewables that benefits (Con): What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet its business solely in the south-east of . The colleagues on the Union connectivity review. [913078] Government’s fourth contracts for difference auction at the end of this year actively disadvantages viable Scottish Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Border) (Con): offshore renewable projects,as the Department for Business, What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues Energy and Industrial Strategy includes out-of-date on the Union connectivity review. [913081] and expensive transmission charges in auction bids. What is the Secretary of State doing to ensure that the The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): Government ditch this unfair renewables policy that I have regular discussions with Cabinet colleagues on advantages south-east England at the expense and detriment transport connectivity in Scotland and throughout the of perfectly viable offshore renewables projects off our United Kingdom. I welcome Sir Peter’s interim report Scottish coasts? and I look forward to his final report in the summer.

Mr Jack: May I begin by agreeing with the hon. Rob Roberts: As connectivity and transport infrastructure Gentleman in welcoming Anas Sarwar as leader of the are of vital importance not only for business but for the Scottish Labour party? I also completely agree with the UK’s tourism industry, does my right hon. Friend agree hon. Gentleman that we need more transparency on that taking steps such as electrifying the north Wales the spending of the £9.6 billion of covid support and coast line and improving links with north-west England business support that the Scottish Government have will not only enable my constituents in Delyn to enjoy received. On the transmission issue, as he will know, by the delights of Scotland more easily but allow our law, transmission charging is a matter for Ofgem, which Scottish cousins to have greater access to the beauties is an independent regulator. However, Ofgem is currently and wonders of our fantastic north Wales area? considering some aspects of the transmission charging arrangements through its access and forward-looking Mr Speaker: That’s imagination for you! charges review, and I encourage all Scottish generators to engage with that review at the earliest opportunity. Mr Jack: Mr Speaker, why should I not just completely agree? Improving connectivity across the entire United Ian Murray: I accept the Secretary of State’s answer, Kingdom, including through the north-west of England, but it will disadvantage projects. BEIS has said that it will boost tourism opportunities for both Scotland and will not change the auction requirements and, therefore, Wales. unless the wind blows in the south-east estuary of England, renewables, including in Scotland, will be John Lamont: The Minister will know that cross-border significantly disadvantaged. transport routes are vital for my constituents,for educational Given the mess that the Scottish Government are and career opportunities as well as many other day-to-day making of business and industry in Scotland, from steel tasks. That is why I want to see the Borders Railway to airports, to ferries, to aluminium smelters, I hope extended and to see improvements to the A1; these are that the UK Government deliver on their promise to both vital routes for the Scottish borders. Does he share protect the Scottish financial services sector post-covid my frustration and shock that the SNP Scottish and post-Brexit. Financial services have done very well Government are failing to engage with and support the from Brexit, as long as they are in Amsterdam or connectivity review, which could be an opportunity to Frankfurt. In Scotland, the sector employs 162,000 accelerate these two projects? 851 Oral Answers 10 MARCH 2021 Oral Answers 852

Mr Jack: I share my hon. Friend’s frustration, I really Kirsten Oswald: Scotland is delivering a pay rise for do. This review is part of our levelling-up agenda to public sector workers while the UK Government are improve the national infrastructure and create jobs and instituting a real-terms pay cut for their public sector prosperity, and I think it is pathetic of the Scottish staff. Does the Minister not appreciate that, as well as nationalist Government not to have engaged just because being unjust and a real failure to recognise the hard it is a “Union” connectivity review. work of the public sector, this decision also harms the Scottish Government’s ability to pay our Scottish public Dr Hudson [V]: As an MP for a borderlands region, I sector staff adequately? know that strengthening and enhancing our Union is of huge importance to my constituency of Penrith and Iain Stewart: I should point out that I am not responsible The Border. Does my right hon. Friend agree that for public sector pay, either in Scotland or England, but projects such as extending the Borders Railway down to I will relay the hon. Lady’s points to my colleagues who Carlisle are a clear example of how the UK and Scottish decide these matters. We will want to be as generous as Governments can work together to improve transport we can be, while also keeping one eye on the overall links in the region? Does he also agree that this would state of the public finances. We have to keep that under be a great boost to the economies of both the north of control. As the Chancellor announced last week, if the England and the south of Scotland, and provide a international financial markets take fright at the state of gateway to unlocking the potential of both regions? our public finances, we will end up in a far worse financial position than we are currently in. Of course, if Mr Jack: I agree with my hon. Friend, and I hope he the Scottish Government wish to increase public sector will be aware that next week we are signing the full pay more than in England, they have the fiscal powers borderlands growth deal, which will include funding for at their disposal to do so. the feasibility study into reopening the Borders Railway link between Carlisle and Tweedbank. Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (SNP) [V]: The United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 Public Spending: Budget 2021 grants UK Ministers the ability to provide financial assistance, particularly from the shared prosperity fund, to any person for purposes that are outlined in the Act. Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP): What assessment However, there is still no detail as to how this will work he has made of the effect of Budget 2021 on public in practice or what conditions will have to be met to spending in Scotland. [913079] qualify for such funding. Last month, a Scotland Office Minister told the Scottish Affairs Committee that further Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): What details on this matter would be provided in the now assessment he has made of the effect of Budget 2021 on published Budget, so could the Minister outline those public spending in Scotland. [913080] details for us, please?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland Iain Stewart: I point the hon. Lady to the prospectuses (Iain Stewart): The Budget confirmed an additional for the first stages of the community renewal fund and £1.2 billion for the Scottish Government in the next the levelling-up fund, which were published alongside financial year. Taken together with the allocation at the the Budget last week. This is about real devolution. This last spending review, it means the Scottish Government is about empowering local communities, local authorities will receive an additional £3.6 billion of funding in and other stakeholders to come forward with the schemes 2021-22 through the Barnett formula, on top of the that they think are best for their local areas, to help baseline of £35 billion. bounce back after the coronavirus pandemic and put in place the innovation and investment that will help economies Kenny MacAskill [V]: The A1, the east coast main grow and secure the jobs of the future. line and the national grid all run through East Lothian, but as this virtual call shows, broadband is as vital as Mhairi Black: That Scotland Office Minister also older forms of infrastructure. East Lothian has lower told the Scottish Affairs Committee that there will be than average download speeds and less gigabyte capacity an opportunity to engage with stakeholders on a lot of than many parts of the worst 10% of areas in the UK. Is the concerns that still exist, so could the Minister tell us this a Brexit bonus or the price of the Union? What is what those opportunities are? When will they be made the Minister doing to ensure that adequate spending is available to us? there to provide the connectivity that East Lothian and Scotland require? Iain Stewart: The work we are doing will build on the very strong relationships that already exist, such as Iain Stewart: As my right hon. Friend the Secretary through the city region and growth deal programmes. of State has mentioned in his answers to previous Shortly after this session, I will be speaking to the questions, we have just published the interim report on Glasgow area policy conference on these matters. When the Union connectivity review, which emphasises the I spoke to them a few weeks ago, the SNP leader of need for better connectivity across all transport modes Glasgow City Council told me that they have developed between Scotland, England and the rest of the United a very effective network with the local authorities in the Kingdom. On the question of broadband speeds, of Greater Glasgow area, with universities and with the course the recent pandemic has underlined the importance private sector and are putting forward exciting bids for of having good digital connectivity, and this Government their future growth. It is those community-led, area-led are investing substantially in improving broadband speeds projects that we want to encourage through our different right across the United Kingdom. funding streams. 853 Oral Answers 10 MARCH 2021 Oral Answers 854

Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): Last week, we finally their first dose across the UK. We can also be proud of saw the Chancellor move the cliff edge for the most the support the UK has given to the international covid vulnerable by announcing that the £20 a week cut to response, including the £548 million we have donated to for millions of families will be moved by COVAX. I therefore wish to correct the suggestion from just six months. Citizens Advice Scotland has shared the European Council President that the UK has blocked that removing the increase will result in nearly 60% of vaccine exports. Let me be clear: we have not blocked CAB complex debt clients being unable to meet their the export of a single covid-19 vaccine or vaccine living costs. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure components. This pandemic has put us all on the same that the least well-off in Scotland are not impacted by side in the battle for global health. We oppose vaccine the Chancellor’s constant dither and delay on ensuring nationalism in all its forms. I trust that Members in all that universal credit is high enough to support all parts of the House will join me in rejecting this suggestion people across Scotland and the United Kingdom? and in calling on all our partners to work together to tackle this pandemic. Iain Stewart: Before I answer the hon. Gentleman’s This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues question, may I, through him, extend my congratulations and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I to Anas Sarwar on his election as leader of the Scottish shall have further such meetings later today. Labour party? It is a significant moment, and he will be a doughty fighter in the upcoming Holyrood elections. Daisy Cooper [V]: The Government are throwing a On universal credit and our route map, although all staggering £37 billion at a test and trace system that we the indications are that the economy will be back up know has made barely any difference, yet they say they and running by the end of June, we have taken the cannot afford to give more than a pitiful 1% pay rise to prudent step of extending not just universal credit but NHS workers. The Prime Minister has said that he owes furlough and some of the other support schemes to the his life to them. He stood on the steps of No. 10 and end of September, just in case there is a delay in getting applauded them. So will the Prime Minister do more things up and running. The uplift to universal credit than pay lip service? Will he pay them the wage that was always designed to be temporary, to help families they deserve? through the pandemic, and the system has worked well. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to all the civil The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is indeed right servants who have administered universal credit at a that we owe a huge amount to our nurses—an incalculable time of unprecedented demand in a very effective way. debt—which is why I am proud that we have delivered a The long-term arrangements for social security payments 12.8% increase in the starting salary of nurses and are will be determined at the forthcoming spending review asking the pay review body to look at increasing their in the normal way. Of course, the Scottish Government pay, exceptionally of all the professions in the public also have the opportunity to supplement those payments sector. As for test and trace, it is thanks to NHS Test with their own welfare powers. and Trace that we are able to send kids back to school and to begin cautiously and irreversibly to reopen our John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP) economy and restart our lives. [V]: While the UK Government are extending rates relief for only three months in England, the Scottish [913215] Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) Government are doing so for the whole year, helping (Con) [V]: I recently visited Long Marston, Bovingdon, the retail, hospitality, leisure and aviation sectors. The Rickmansworth and Berkhamsted to see the damage Scottish Government want to go further still, so will the that flooding caused to our communities at first hand. Minister support Scottish businesses by calling for the Will the Prime Minister assure this House that as the full devolution of financial powers to Scotland? weather gets better we will not lose the of Iain Stewart: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his finding long-term, sustainable solutions to prevent flooding question. It is not correct to say that the business rates in the future and to give residents the security they holiday is only being extended for three months; a deserve all year round, irrespective of the weather outside? period beyond that is specially targeted at businesses in the tourism, hospitality and entertainment sector. In The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for what addition, for England substantial restart grants are he is doing to campaign for his local area on flood available, the money for which is Barnettised to the defences. I thank the Environment Agency for the tireless, Scottish Government, who are able to spend that as imaginative and creative work it does to find solutions, they see fit. and we are investing £5.2 billion to build 2,000 new flood defences over the next six years.

PRIME MINISTER (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Who does the Prime Minister think deserves a pay rise more: an NHS nurse or Dominic Cummings? The Prime Minister was asked— Engagements The Prime Minister: As I told the hon. Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper) earlier on, we owe a massive [913214] Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD): If he will list debt as a society, and I do personally, to the nurses of his official engagements for Wednesday 10 March. our NHS. That is why we have asked the public sector pay review body, exceptionally, to look at their pay. I The Prime Minister (): The whole House want to stress, however, that, as the House knows, can be proud of the UK’s vaccination programme, with starting salaries for nurses have gone up by 12.8% over more than 22.5 million people now having received the last three years, and it is thanks to the package that 855 Oral Answers 10 MARCH 2021 Oral Answers 856 this Government have put in place that we now have The more you look at the Prime Minister’s decision, 10,600 more nurses in our NHS than there were one the worse it gets, because it is not just a pay cut; it is a year ago and 60,000 more in training. broken promise, too. Time and time again he said that the NHS would not pay the price for this pandemic. Keir Starmer: The Prime Minister says nurses’ pay Two years ago, he made a promise to the NHS in black has gone up; I know he is desperate to distance himself and white: his document commits to a minimum pay from the Conservatives’ record over the last decade, but rise of 2.1%. It has been budgeted for, and now it is as he well knows, since 2010 nurses’ pay has fallen in being taken away. [Interruption.] The Prime Minister real terms by more than £800. And he did not answer shakes his head. His MPs voted for it, so why, after my question—it was a very simple question. The everything the NHS has done for us, is he now breaking Prime Minister has been talking about affordability; he promise after promise? could afford to give Dominic Cummings a 40% pay rise. The Prime Minister: The right hon. and learned He could afford that; now, he is asking NHS nurses to Gentleman voted against the document in question, take a real-terms pay cut. How on earth does he justify which just crowns the absurdity of his point. Under this that? Government we have massively increased funding for our amazing NHS, with the result that, as I say, there The Prime Minister: I repeat the point that I have are 6,500 more doctors this year than there were last made: I believe that we all owe a massive debt to our year, 18,000 more healthcare workers and 10,600 more nurses and, indeed, all our healthcare workers and nurses. We are going to deliver our promises—I can tell social care workers. One of the things that they tell me the right hon. and learned Gentleman that—and we are when I go to hospitals, as I know the right hon. and going to go on and build 40 more hospitals and recruit learned Gentleman does too, is that in addition to pay 50,000 more nurses, and we are going to get on and one of their top concerns is to have more colleagues on deliver on our pledges to the British people. We are the wards to help them with the undoubted stress and going to do that because of our sound management of strains of the pandemic. That is why we have provided the economy and the fastest vaccine roll-out programme another £5,000 in bursaries for nurses and another of any comparable country which, frankly, if we had £3,000 to help with the particular costs of training followed his precept and his ideas, we would certainly and with childcare. It is because of that package that not have been able to achieve. this year we are seeing another 34% increase in applications for nurses. This Government of this party of the Keir Starmer: The Prime Minister says that he voted NHS are on target to deliver 50,000 more nurses in for it; he did. Now he has ripped it up—2.1% ripped up. our NHS. If he will not listen to me, he should listen to what his own Conservative MPs are saying about this. This is Keir Starmer: The Prime Minister talks about from his own side. This is what they say—behind you, recruitment; there are currently 40,000 nursing vacancies Prime Minister. “It’s inept.” “It’s unacceptable.” “It’s and 7,000 doctors’ vacancies. How on earth does he pathetic.” These are Conservative MPs talking about think a pay cut is going to help to solve that? Frankly, I the Prime Minister’s pay cut for nurses, and that was would take the Prime Minister a bit more seriously if he before his answers today. Perhaps the most telling of all had not spent £2.6 million of taxpayers’ money on a the comments came from another MP, sitting behind Downing Street TV studio, or £200,000 on new wallpaper him, who said: for his flat. They say that charity starts at home, but I “The public just hear ‘1 per cent’ and think how mean we are.” think the Prime Minister is taking it a bit too literally. Even his own MPs know that he has got this wrong. Let me try something very simple: does the Prime Why is he going ahead with it? Minister accept that NHS staff will be hundreds of The Prime Minister: What the public know is that we pounds worse off a year because of last week’s Budget? have increased starting pay for nurses by 12.8% over the past three years. They know that, in the past year, this The Prime Minister: No. Of course, we will look at Government have put another £5,000 bursary into the what pay review body has to say, pockets of nurses, because we support them, as well as exceptionally, about the nursing profession, whom we the £3,000 extra for training. It is very important that particularly value,but the right hon. and learned Gentleman the public sector pay review body should come back should also know, and reflect to the House, that under with its proposals, and we will, of course, study them. this Government we not only began with a record As I say, it is thanks to the investment made by this increase in NHS funding of £33.9 billion, but because Government that there are 49,000 more people in the of the pandemic we have put another £63 billion into NHS this year than last year. That means that there are supporting our NHS, on top of the £140 billion of 10,600 more nurses helping to relieve the burden on our in-year spending. It is because of this Government that hard-pressed nurses. That is what this Government are in one year alone there are another 49,000 people investing in. working in our NHS. That is something that is of massive benefit not just to patients but to hard-pressed Keir Starmer: The Prime Minister says, “We support nurses as well. them. We’ll reward them.” He is cutting their pay. [Interruption.] “Not true”, he says. Prime Minister, a Keir Starmer: My mum was a nurse; my sister was a 1% rise versus a 1.7% inflation rise is a real-terms cut. If nurse; my wife works in the NHS—I know what it he does not understand that, we really are in trouble. means to work for the NHS. When I clapped for carers, Mr Speaker, the Government promised honesty, but I meant it; the Prime Minister clapped for carers, then the truth is that they can afford to give Dominic Cummings he shut the door in their face at the first opportunity. a 40% pay rise, and they cannot afford to reward the 857 Oral Answers 10 MARCH 2021 Oral Answers 858

NHS properly. The mask really is slipping, and we can Erasmus scheme, but he clearly will not match EU levels see what the Conservative party now stands for: cutting of support. And it is not just us saying it; his own pay for nurses; putting taxes up on families. He has had Scottish colleague,the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire the opportunity to change course, but he has refused to and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie), told the BBC last do so. If he so determined to cut NHS pay, will he at week that young people will not benefit from Brexit. least show some courage and put it to a vote in this The Government have saddled a generation with tuition Parliament? fee debt, and are now closing the door on Erasmus. It is no wonder that students are choosing the SNP and The Prime Minister: The last time that we put this to independence for a prosperous future. Prime Minister, a vote, the right hon. and learned Gentleman voted will you think again, do the right thing, engage with our against it, as I said before. We are increasing pay for EU friends and rejoin Erasmus? nurses. We are massively increasing our investment in the NHS. We are steering a steady course, whereas he Mr Speaker: May I just remind Members not to use weaves and wobbles from one week to the next. One “you”? week he is attacking us and saying that we should be doing more testing, and the next week he is denouncing The Prime Minister: I think students should choose us for spending money on testing. One week he calls for the Turing project because it is fantastic and reaches out a faster roll-out of PPE, and the next week he is saying across the whole country. I believe, by the way, that they that we spent too much. He has to make up his mind. should reject the SNP—a Scottish nationalist party, One week, he calls for a faster vaccination roll-out when Mr Speaker—because it is failing the people of Scotland, he actually voted—although he claims to have forgotten failing to deliver on education, failing on crime and it—to stay in the European Medicines Agency. Perhaps failing on the economy. I hope very much that the he would like to confirm that he voted to stay in the people of Scotland will go for common sense. Instead European Medicines Agency, which would have made of endlessly going on about constitutional issues and that vaccine roll-out impossible. We vaccinate and get endlessly campaigning for a referendum, which is the on with delivering for the people of this country. We last thing the people of this country need right now, I vaccinate, he vacillates, and that is the difference. think people want a Government who focus on the issues that matter to them, including a fantastic international [913216] Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): The education scheme like Turing. incredible success of our vaccination programme, for which the Prime Minister and this Government deserve [913217] Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) immense credit, now means that tourism businesses in (Con) [V]: My right hon. Friend will recognise that Blackpool can look forward to a successful summer while covid restrictions have been in place, children have season when the economy reopens. When the time is not only had to learn online rather than in the classroom, right, will the Prime Minister support a campaign but have also missed out on cultural, artistic and sporting encouraging people to holiday here in the UK this activities with their peers. At the same time, cultural, summer, and will he join me in Blackpool to launch that artistic and sporting organisations have remained restricted campaign and to showcase everything that we have to in what they can do, and, despite the considerable help offer? offered to them, are still in need of Government support. Will he consider how we might put those two things The Prime Minister: I will look very carefully at my together and provide for enrichment activities that are diary to see whether I can actually get up to Blackpool. available to all young people over the coming months, I have many happy memories of joyful evenings spectating funded by the Government and provided not by hard- at the illuminations of Blackpool. I know that Blackpool pressed teachers, but by our outstanding culture and will play an important part in the tourism recovery that sport sectors while they are unable to reopen to the we hope to see this summer if we continue on our road wider public? map. The Prime Minister: My right hon. and learned Friend Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): Yesterday, has been a great champion of the arts and culture the Prime Minister published his plans for an Erasmus sectors, and he is completely right about the role that replacement, without any consultation or discussion they can play for young people in the recovery. That is with the devolved Governments. The replacement scheme why we hope that the massive £2 billion recovery fund offers lower living support, no travel support and no that we have given to thousands of theatres, orchestras, tuition fee support. Why are this Tory Government choirs, music venues and others will be used for the taking opportunities away from our young people? benefit and the cultural enrichment of young people up and down the country. The Prime Minister: That was a delightfully concise question, but the hon. Member is wrong about the (Foyle) (SDLP): The Prime Minister’s difference between Erasmus and the Turing project. fantasy bridge to Northern Ireland could cost £33 billion— Unlike the Erasmus scheme, which overwhelmingly went this, while our road and rail networks have been absolutely to kids from better-off homes, the Turing project is decimated from decades of underinvestment. The designed to help kids across the country, of all income Conservative party got a grand total of 2,399 votes at groups, get to fantastic universities around the world. the last Assembly election. What mandate does he think he has to override the democratically elected Kirsten Oswald: That is just not the case. We know people of Northern Ireland to impose a bridge that that we cannot trust a word that the Prime Minister says goes through miles of unexploded munitions and on this. He told us that there was no threat to the radioactive waste? 859 Oral Answers 10 MARCH 2021 Oral Answers 860

The Prime Minister: If the hon. Member had read the everybody—adults over 23—the opportunity of £3,000 for article I wrote this morning in The Daily Telegraph, he an A-level-equivalent qualification. I think it will be would have seen that the things that we have set out in absolutely instrumental in helping young people of the Hendy review will be of massive benefit to Northern beyond school age to retrain and get the jobs they need. Ireland. That includes upgrading the A75, which is the The lifetime skills guarantee: it is the first time it has single biggest thing that people in Northern Ireland been done. wanted, by the way,and which the Scottish nationalists—the Scottish National party—have totally failed to do. The [913219] Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP) [V]: It review also includes better connections east-west within takes 16,000 dedicated nurses to staff Northern Northern Ireland, which we should be doing, and better Ireland’s health service, costing around £380 million connections north-south within the island of Ireland. It per year. That is less than 2% of UK sales for just one is a fantastic Union connectivity review.The hon. Member internet giant, Amazon, whose revenues doubled should appreciate it; it is the way forward. I am amazed, during lockdown. What possible reason can the Prime frankly, by his negativity. Minister and his Chancellor, who both talked about the need to pay for this pandemic, have to not apply a [913220] Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con): Despite the modest windfall tax on those businesses who have claims of Eastleigh Liberal Democrats, my constituents benefited so much from the pandemic, in order to will be delighted to know that the concrete section of properly pay those staff who worked so hard to bring the M27 will start to be resurfaced this summer. Does us through the pandemic? the Prime Minister agree that this shows that it is The Prime Minister: Actually I think that the hon. Conservative Governments who invest in infrastructure Lady is making an important point about the discrepancy and that if elected in May Conservative candidates like in the tax paid by some online businesses and some Jerry Hall will deliver for the people of Eastleigh, concrete businesses. That is an issue that the Chancellor Hedge End and West End? is trying to address in an equitable way, working with colleagues in the G7 and around the world. The Prime Minister: That is absolutely true. It is Conservative Governments who invest in Eastleigh; it is [913222] Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) Conservative Governments putting £640 billion into an (Con) [V]: We have seen the disgraceful way the EU has infrastructure revolution. I congratulate Jerry Hall on responded to UK fish exports. Part of the answer is for what he is doing to resurface the road and to make it UK consumers to buy British fish. As chairman of the quieter, and I hope that he will be duly elected in May. all-party parliamentary group on fisheries, could I invite the Prime Minister to join a fantastic British chef [913218] David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): In to show us how easy it is to prepare and cook a dish extending the £20 uplift to universal credit, which we using British-caught fish? welcomed at the beginning of the pandemic, the Prime Minister was clearly conceding that social security The Prime Minister: I am very happy to take up my support in the UK is inadequate, so while I welcome hon. Friend’s suggestion. I am not the greatest chef the fact that it has been extended for six months, I myself, but I have made, and can make, from memory, a would like to see it being made permanent. But can he fish pie with haddock and prawns, which I undertake tell the House why, if it was so inadequate, it was not to do. extended to those on legacy benefits, such as disabled Mr Speaker: British haddock. people? (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: People The Prime Minister: Throughout the pandemic we like my constituent, Tessa Stevens, have had to keep have done whatever we can to look after people throughout their salons shut despite shrinking Government support, the country, whether those on benefits or those who unchanged overheads and decreased profits. I am urgently have lost their jobs, sadly, because of the pandemic. I seeking the Prime Minister’s support to protect the am very proud of what universal credit has been able to immediate and long-term recovery of beauty businesses achieve, and I think that the hon. Gentleman should and the jobs they support. Will the Prime Minister perhaps take it up with his friends in the Labour party explain why his Government refuse to listen to the who actually want to abolish universal credit. beauty industry,which is calling for VAT to be temporarily reduced to 5% for hair and beauty businesses, similar to [913221] Lia Nici (Great Grimsby) (Con) [V]: Last week what has happened to businesses in other sectors such Grimsby celebrated the Chancellor’s announcements of as hospitality, tourism and culture? the towns fund and the Humber freeport, and it is clear to the people of Grimsby that this Government are The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is absolutely determined not to neglect the town like Labour right in what she says about the importance of beauty predecessors. Our next challenge is to raise skills and businesses. They do an amazing job, and we want them educational achievements in the town. Will the Prime to bounce back very strongly from the pandemic. I want Minister outline how people can take advantage of the high-street beauty salons to be opening up in the way new lifetime skills guarantee that he is launching next that they were in the past, rather than people going month? round and giving services and cutting hair at home. It is very important that we revive high-street salons, and The Prime Minister: The fantastic thing about the that is why we are continuing with the cautious, but lifetime skills guarantee is that in very, very tough irreversible road map out of this, which will enable a circumstances, with many people having, I am afraid full recovery for the entire sector. In the meantime, as inevitably, to seek new jobs and to find ways of retraining, she knows, the Chancellor has extended furlough and as will happen in a changing economy, it offers all the other provisions that are necessary. 861 Oral Answers 10 MARCH 2021 Oral Answers 862

[913223] Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con): May I warmly South. Will the Prime Minister join me in urging all welcome the Union connectivity review that has been young people to support that fair, and will he apologise announced this morning? It is brilliant news to connect to them for failing them so far? the whole of the UK, but in West Dorset, we have single-track railway lines. We have a three-hourly rail The Prime Minister: I think that jobs fairs are an frequency, yet we have the highest level of roadside important thing, and I know that colleagues across the pollution anywhere in the UK. Will my right hon. House do them, but I also think that the Government Friend kindly support a levelling up rail proposal that can be proud of our record in getting record numbers of will not only look to support West Dorset, but also young people into employment. We now face a very some of the most deprived areas in the south-west? severe problem caused by the pandemic, which we are addressing not just with the lifetime skills guarantee The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend knows whereof that I mentioned earlier with but the kickstart funds he speaks. He is probably one of the greatest experts on and the restart funds, with £2 billion going into kickstart railways in this House, and we are certainly determined alone, to help young people into the jobs that they need. to follow his lead and to upgrade services in the west country and in Dorset. He knows what is happening at [913225] Damien Moore (Southport) (Con): After putting Dawlish and elsewhere. Network Rail has identified in a fantastic bid, Southport last week got a £37.5 million proposals, including the improvement of the performance town deal. That will be transformational and represents of the west of England line, which is currently being the levelling-up agenda of the Prime Minister and this assessed. He is knocking at an open door. Conservative Government. When his diary allows, will he come to Southport to see these projects as they (, Walton) (Lab) [V]: Back in unfold and the impact they will have on the lives of my 2012, commissioning for alcohol and drug addiction constituents? treatment was taken out of the NHS and handed to local authorities, and those services are now overwhelmed The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed. I am told that the after a decade of cuts and fragmentation. Last year, the boulevard of light on Lord Street rivals the Champs-Élysées UK recorded the highest number of alcohol-specific itself, and I will certainly keep my hon. Friend’s invitation deaths since records began. Addiction is an illness that in mind. can be treated, so will the Prime Minister urgently investigate the rise in deaths and bring addiction treatment Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): In this House, back into the NHS within mental health services and we all know the importance of the people who have give it the funding it requires? looked after our vulnerable loved ones over the past year when we have been unable to do so, so will the The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is entirely Prime Minister explain to me why in this country we right to draw attention to the importance of addiction have 375,000 care workers on zero-hours contracts? treatment and its relationship to mental health, and that is why the Government are investing record sums in The Prime Minister: I am proud of what the Government mental health—£13.3 billion—and treatment for alcoholism have done to increase the wages of care workers across is of course part of that. the country, with record increases in the living wage. This country is unlike most other countries in the world [913224] Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con) [V]: I have seen in the speed with which we have vaccinated care home first-hand, visiting both St George’s Hospital and workers and their elderly charges. County Hospital in Stafford, the great work being done to support people, including veterans, with their mental [913226] James Grundy (Leigh) (Con) [V]: I thank the health. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, sadly, the Prime Minister for his commitment to levelling up the covid-19 pandemic is likely to have had a negative north, the benefits of which we are already beginning to impact on people’s mental health, and will he commit see, with a £15 million allocation from the Government’s to working with me and the Stafford mental health transforming cities fund enabling the plans to reopen network to improve and increase mental health Golborne station in my constituency to . Will provision in Stafford? the Prime Minister not only welcome that progress but back my campaign to reopen Kenyon Junction railway The Prime Minister: Yes, I am certainly very happy to station, which will help unlock the potential of Leigh, discuss that with my hon. Friend, or to make sure she provide my constituents with a vital rail connection gets access to the relevant ministerial authority. What between Liverpool and Manchester, and ensure that we are doing, in addition to the £13.3 billion I spoke of, Leigh is no longer one of the largest towns in the UK is supporting mental health charities throughout the without a railway station? pandemic, and in particular focusing on the mental health needs of children and young people. That is why The Prime Minister: I am very happy to support my I appointed Dr Alex George to be our youth mental hon. Friend’s initiative, and I understand that Golborne, health ambassador. which he represents, was the sight of the world’s first railway junction. ( South) (Lab): This Government are failing young people. Before the pandemic, Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) [V]: Anthony Jones, a apprenticeship starts were down by 28% for under-19s ferociously bright student at Stirling University, was and £330 million of unspent levy went back to the looking to do a master’s degree in Amsterdam. Pre- Treasury, falling short by 81% in creating the promised Brexit, the course fees were £2,168. Post Brexit, the fees 100,000 new apprenticeships. This month, I will be are £14,600. The Turing scheme will not touch the sides holding my fifth apprenticeships and jobs fair in Bristol of what is necessary. Would the Prime Minister like to 863 Oral Answers 10 MARCH 2021 Oral Answers 864 apologise to Anthony and countless hundreds of thousands Food and Rural Affairs to look seriously at my proposals of students like him for limiting their life horizons for a kitemark scheme for food products in the UK, so against their will? that consumers can see clearly whether the products they buy come from sustainable sources or from producers The Prime Minister: No, because I think that the who are doing further damage to our environment? Turing scheme is fairer and will enable students on lower incomes to have access to great courses around The Prime Minister: I am very happy to look at my the world. I believe it is a highly beneficial reform of the right hon. Friend’s interesting suggestion for a kitemark way we do this, and it is truly global in its ambitions. scheme. In the meantime, this Government are leading the world in tackling deforestation, with a £3 billion [913227] Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con): investment being led across Whitehall. With a new station at Meir, investment in Longton station and restoration of the Stoke to Leek line, does (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op): my right hon. Friend agree that investment from this On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Government has the potential to reverse the Beeching cuts, restore our local railways in Stoke-on-Trent and Mr Speaker: Is the point of order relevant to Prime cement our position as one of the best-connected places Minister’s questions? in the whole UK? Jonathan Ashworth: It is indeed, Mr Speaker. The The Prime Minister: Yes. I thank my hon. Friend; I Prime Minister has twice, from that Dispatch Box, said know that he supported the bid for the reinstatement of that the Labour Opposition voted against the NHS the Stoke to Leek line. That is currently being assessed Funding Bill and the 2.1% increase for NHS staff. This by the as one of the Beeching is not the case. Indeed, in the debate, as Hansard will reversals, which are so popular around the country and show, I was explicit that we would not divide the House. so right, and he can expect an outcome in the summer. Can you, Mr Speaker, use your good offices to get the Prime Minister to return to the House to correct the Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) [V]: If the Prime record? And do you agree that if the Prime Minister Minister is serious about levelling up the country, does wants to cut nurses’ pay, he should have the courage of he honestly think that favouring the Chancellor’s his convictions and bring a vote back to the House? Richmondshire constituency over Barnsley for financial support is the best way to do it? Mr Speaker: May I just say that that is not a point of order? It is certainly a point of clarification, and that The Prime Minister: We are devoted to levelling up part has been achieved. But I am certainly not going to across the entire country, and that goes for Barnsley as be drawn into a debate, as the shadow Secretary of well as everywhere else. State well knows. I will now suspend the House for three minutes to [913228] (Epsom and Ewell) (Con) [V]: enable the necessary arrangements for the next business I know that the Prime Minister shares my commitment to be made. to conservation around the world, and I am sure he agrees that we have to reverse the tide of deforestation. 12.35 pm Will he ask Ministers in the Department for Environment, Sitting suspended. 865 10 MARCH 2021 Northern Ireland Protocol 866

Northern Ireland Protocol solutions more likely or less? Does he think that the behaviour of Lord Frost will make desperately needed 12.38 pm flexibility from the EU more likely or less? Does he think that that approach will make the chances of a (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab) (Urgent Question): successful relationship with President Biden more likely To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he or less? will make a statement on the Government’s unilateral Will the Secretary of State confirm whether the actions action on the Northern Ireland protocol. taken last week breach international law for a second The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon time? This is an extraordinary position for the Government Lewis): The Government are committed to giving effect to be in: having to break the law and trash Britain’s to the protocol in a pragmatic and proportionate way, international reputation to remove checks that they one that is needed. We will continue to work with claimed never existed. Is it not now time to show colleagues in Westminster, with the Northern Ireland responsibility to the people of Northern Ireland, be Executive and with businesses to support our sensible honest about the consequences of the Brexit deal that approach. the Prime Minister negotiated, and commit to working with the EU to find the long-term solutions that we As I announced last Wednesday in this House, the desperately need? Government have taken several temporary operational steps to avoid disruptive cliff edges as engagement with Brandon Lewis: I note from the hon. Lady’s comments the EU continues through the Joint Committee. These that, from memory, she did not at any point disagree steps recognise that appropriate time must be provided with the substance of any of the measures that we have for businesses to implement new requirements, and that brought forward, which are critical to protecting the action was needed in the immediate term to avoid any flow of goods in Northern Ireland, so I assume that she disruption to flows of critical goods, such as food inherently supports what we have done. She will be in supplies, into Northern Ireland. Since that statement, good company, because the actions that we took last further guidance has been provided, including on parcel week have been backed by a range of businesses and the movements. communities in Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland The protocol was agreed as a unique solution to the Retail Consortium itself said: complex challenges that are before us. Its core aims “The retail industry welcomes the extension of the grace include upholding the Belfast/Good Friday agreement periods…even if it is unilaterally, to allow us to continue to give in all its dimensions, north-south and east-west, and Northern Ireland households the choice and affordability they need.” ensuring that the implementation of the protocol can be given effect in a way that minimises the impact on the That sentiment has been echoed by many others, who everyday lives of communities in Northern Ireland, as have said that the action was needed in relation to the the protocol itself pledges. The Government remain immediate grace period deadlines. committed to meeting our obligations, and doing so in I have spent a lot of time over the last few months, the pragmatic and proportionate way that was always and certainly in the last couple of weeks, for obvious intended. reasons, talking to businesses that were very clear that, had we not taken that action last week, we would have Louise Haigh: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting seen disruption to food supplies in literally the next this urgent question. In recent weeks, we have seen the couple of weeks. Underlying the point that the hon. threat of instability return to Northern Ireland. Without Lady made in her opening comments about stability is responsible leadership, the Brexit deal that the Prime the fact that it was important for stability for people in Minister negotiated always had the potential to unsettle Northern Ireland, and for the future of the protocol, the delicate balance of identities across these islands. It for us not to be in a situation where, because of the way was only on 24 February that the Chancellor of the things were being implemented, we would have had Duchy of Lancaster said that we are committed to empty shelves again, potentially in just a couple of jointly finding solutions weeks’ time. I am sad that she was almost arguing that “to make the Protocol work”. that could be acceptable. It simply is not. Just seven days later, the Secretary of State unilaterally In terms of the hon. Lady’s questions on the action undermined that commitment, sending a clear message that we have taken, the measures that I announced last that the Government’s word cannot be trusted, which Wednesdayare lawful. They are consistent with a progressive raises serious questions about whether the Government and good faith implementation of the protocol. They have a strategy at all to deal with the complex realities are temporary operational easements, introduced where facing Northern Ireland. additional delivery time is needed. They do not change Provocation is not a strategy, and a stop gap is not a our legal obligations set out in the protocol, and we will solution, so what precisely is the Government’s intention? continue to discuss protocol implementation in the Joint Is it to push the protocol to breaking point, and undermine Committee. Some of the issues that she has raised are the cast-iron commitment to avoid a hard border on the those that we are working in through the Joint Committee. island of Ireland, or is it to find the solutions that We would have liked to be able to get this agreement businesses are crying out for? If it is the latter, can the with the EU. Sadly, that was not possible within the Secretary of State give us something tangible? What timeframe in which we had to make a decision to kind of agreement is being sought, for instance, on ensure that the people of Northern Ireland did not common veterinary standards that would deliver the suffer loss of trade and loss of flow of products into long-term solutions needed to prevent disruption? Does Northern Ireland in the next couple of weeks. That is he think that the Irish Government saying that we are why we took some simple, operational and pragmatic no longer a partner that can be trusted will make such decisions last week. 867 Northern Ireland Protocol10 MARCH 2021 Northern Ireland Protocol 868

[Brandon Lewis] the UK Government that is needed to secure changes to the arrangement they took so long to negotiate is in I have to say I am a bit disappointed, although I shorter supply than ever before. The conduct of the probably should not be surprised, to see a Labour Front Brexit negotiations came at the expense of the UK’s Bencher standing here and defending the EU, rather reputation for political stability and good governance. than defending the actions of the UK Government, Is not this latest development one which will come at who are standing up for the people of the United the expense of any lingering trust there may be in the Kingdom and, in this case, making sure that we do the UK Government as a trustworthy international partner, right thing by the people of Northern Ireland. As a who can be relied upon to keep their word? Unionist, I ask the hon. Lady whether she really feels she is in the right place on this. Brandon Lewis: We are a trustworthy partner and have always been clear about what we would do and the Mr Speaker: We go now to the Chair of the Select reasoning for what we are doing. Rather like the Irish Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, Simon Hoare. Government did a few weeks ago when they took sensible flexibilities, we have taken flexibilities. We have Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con) [V]: Thank you, given a timeline for them; they are temporary, operational Mr Speaker. May I say to my right hon. Friend that it is and the right thing to do for the people of Northern not the what but the how? The Government did not Ireland. reluctantly inherit the protocol; they authored it jointly Returning to the point made by the hon. Member for with the EU, with all its modus operandi. Do the Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh) about stability in Northern Government understand the very destabilising effect on Ireland, it is undoubtedly the case—it can be seen in trust that such unilateral action has in both UK-EU any engagement in Northern Ireland across the entire relations and in UK-Irish relations? May I urge the community—that the action the EU took when it talked Government to desist the narrative of unilateral action about and actually started to implement article 16 on and debate, to get back around the Joint Committee that Friday night had a huge impact on communities table and to make sure that the protocol works, that across Northern Ireland, and the issue still lingers. We everybody understands that it is here to stay, and that it need to recognise and understand people’s sense of can benefit very significantly the people, the economy identity in Northern Ireland, the impact on it and the and the communities of Northern Ireland? tension created by that action. Our actions were about making sure that we did not Brandon Lewis: As I said, the protocol was agreed as have a further problem, which could well have occurred a unique solution to complex and unique challenges, in the next couple of weeks. According to the businesses recognising the unique situation of Northern Ireland, we have been dealing with, if we had not taken action but we wanted to work these things through in agreement urgently last week, there would have been empty shelves with the EU. The reality is that the EU had not come to in Northern Ireland. That is not what the protocol is an agreement on these matters. As we see these decisions about and it is not fair to the people of Northern go through, I hope it will be seen that they are pragmatic, Ireland. operational and temporary. Just a few weeks ago, we sawthe Irish Government implement temporary flexibilities Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): I share the Minister’s very similar to what we are talking about, without determination to protect the integrity of the Good giving an end date and without anyone criticising or Friday/Belfast agreement in terms of both north-south challenging them. and east-west. The EU’s decision in January to invoke We want to continue to work with the EU. We article 16 was in complete contradiction of the spirit of recognise that of course the EU’s focus is on the single the protocol. Shamefully placing the EU’s protection of market. We have to make sure our focus is always its single market over the protection of the Good Friday clearly on our commitment to the Good Friday/Belfast agreement seriously undermined cross-community agreement, which is not just north-south but east-west confidence of its operation. Does the Secretary of State as well. agree that it is now incumbent on the EU to remedy its mistake and restore trust in the protocol in Northern Mr Speaker: We go to the Scottish National party Ireland? spokesperson, Richard Thomson. Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a very important and powerful point. He is quite right that it is important Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP) [V]: Thank you, we remember that the Good Friday/Belfast agreement Mr Speaker. I echo the words of the Select Committee is about the entire community: it has a north-south and Chair: it is not the publicly stated objective of protecting an east-west dimension, and people need to understand the flow of goods that is at issue here; rather, it is the that. provocative and belligerent manner in which the Government seem to be determined to go about trying I was very pleased that the EU Vice-President agreed to achieve that. to meet with businesses and civic society. We hear, from across communities and across businesses, their concerns The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said and fears about the actions that have been taken and the previously that he believed Northern Ireland was getting fixes they need to see in the protocol, some of which the “the best of both worlds” hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley asked us to get on through the protocol, and that any issues arising with and do quickly just a couple of weeks ago. That is from the new arrangements could be resolved within what we have done, for the best interests of the people the terms of that protocol, without needing to trigger of Northern Ireland and to ensure that the protocol can the article 16 procedure. At a time when flexibility is work and function as it was always designed and intended needed, this action will ensure that the good will towards to do. 869 Northern Ireland Protocol10 MARCH 2021 Northern Ireland Protocol 870

Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): We the Secretary of State rushed out—sneaked out—an welcome and support even the limited measures that the announcement unilaterally on Budget day that his Government have taken to protect businesses in Northern Government would once again break international law. Ireland, but even an extended grace period still leaves us Given that Governments across Europe and politicians with a reality that, in the words of the permanent on Capitol Hill and in the White House are furious secretary of the Department of Agriculture, Environment about this move, is the Secretary of State at all concerned and Rural Affairs, 20% of all the checks taking place on that this Government’s reputation is in tatters across the all borders across the are now taking world? place in the Irish sea. That will increase substantially beyond the grace period, so we need a permanent Brandon Lewis: I am afraid that I have to contradict solution to this problem—the sooner, the better. the hon. Gentleman on pretty much every point he has just made. First of all, I do not think it is sneaking out Brandon Lewis: The right hon. Gentleman makes an of the House to stand here and make these points at important point. I send my best wishes to his colleague, oral questions, as we did last week. I outlined at oral Minister Poots, who is now returning to work after his questions the measures that we were taking, and obviously recent illness, which is really good news. colleagues asked questions on them. We published the The right hon. Gentleman has highlighted the practical written ministerial statement, as well as, obviously, impact of some of these things, and the importance of publishing guidance and other matters more publicly our getting solutions to ensure a good, flexible flow of after that. So I do not think that really qualifies for that. goods, as we have always outlined was our vision, going In terms of lawfulness, these are lawful actions, as I back to our Command Paper last year. That is why it is outlined last week and I have outlined already this important that we continue the conversations, and I afternoon in answer to the hon. Member for Sheffield, encourage the EU to go further with those with civic Heeley. They are about implementing the protocol and society and business organisations in Northern Ireland, they fit with our obligations under the protocol. We will which it promised to do. We are keen to see the EU continue to make sure that we deliver on that in a engage further,which I hope it will do shortly to understand pragmatic and flexible way to work for the people of the needs and the flexibilities that are practical, both for Northern Ireland. It is indeed international, but this is a Northern Ireland and, ultimately, the wider EU as well. lawful action. I would just say that, bearing in mind that the Irish Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): Government took similar action themselves just a few Could my right hon. Friend explain to the European weeks ago and that these are temporary, pragmatic Union that we are perhaps more committed to the operational things to ensure that the protocol can work Good Friday agreement and the avoidance of new and to avoid further tensions and problems for people infrastructure on the border between north and south across communities in Northern Ireland, I would hope than it has so far demonstrated itself to be, and that the that people across the EU and our friends in the US will idea that the Northern Ireland protocol is a work of see that this is an important piece of work that we have such perfection that it is beyond improvement is a done to ensure that we can deliver on the protocol, myth? Can he ask them also to explain why the sale of respecting the Good Fridayagreement in all its strands—not English sausages in Northern Ireland is somehow a just north-south but, importantly, east-west as well. threat to the integrity of the EU single market, or to the Good Friday agreement? (Broadland) (Con) [V]: One of the key aims of the Northern Irish protocol was to prevent Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a really important a destabilisation of the peace process, and we all remember point, and I am determined, as the Prime Minister is, to how Monsieur Barnier took every opportunity to remind ensure that the great British banger—the great Norfolk us how important that was when negotiating the agreement, sausage—will continue to be enjoyed by those who wish yet the shortages that we are seeing in shops now, and to do so across the counties of Northern Ireland in the disruption to trade being caused by the EU’s insistence perpetuity. However, it is important—this is why the on heavy-handed inspections, is doing just that. What right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. does my right hon. Friend think would have been the Donaldson) was absolutely right—that we use these impact on the stability of the peace process if he had grace periods to get long-term solutions. not taken this action? My hon. Friend is also absolutely right that our commitment to the Good Friday/Belfast agreement is Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a very important steadfast. That is why all the actions we have taken, point. I know that he has a huge background of experience both last year and recently, have been about ensuring and knowledge of issues of Northern Ireland. What I that we do not have borders, and that we respect the would say to him is that I understand that the EU has north-south and east-west dimensions. There is another recognised and, to be fair, Maroš Šefcˇovicˇhimself has important point here, which I hope has come through in apologised and said it was a mistake, but the action that the conversations we have been able to organise with the EU took did happen, and it had an impact. It has Vice-President Šefcˇovicˇ recently: it is important to had an impact in terms of tensions and feelings of understand the effect on the sense of identity that identity in Northern Ireland. My view, having spoken people in the Unionist community in Northern Ireland to businesses, is that if we had not taken the action that have. After the actions of that Friday a few weeks ago, it we took last week, we would have had empty shelves in is important to repair that. supermarkets in Northern Ireland imminently. I think that would have raised tensions further and it may well Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP): It really is a new have undermined the protocol fatally, in a way that is experience to be lectured by the European Research not in the best interests of the EU, the UK or the people Group about the Good Friday agreement. Last week, of Northern Ireland. 871 Northern Ireland Protocol10 MARCH 2021 Northern Ireland Protocol 872

Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD) an earlier answer, but let me press him: can he confirm [V]: I have to say that it is far from clear to me exactly whether anything that the Government have proposed what the Government are trying to achieve in relation in the unilateral extension of the grace period does, or to the Northern Ireland protocol at the moment, but potentially might, breach international legal obligations whatever it is, I have to think that it can only have been with the arrangements that we have entered into? And damaged by what we saw happen and the continued given his previous record on this matter, why should any insistence on unilateral action here. May we just have a partner believe a single word that the Government say? pause and a reset, and focus on using this grace period to achieve the things that will be necessary for the Brandon Lewis: I think the hon. Gentleman’s question long-term creation of sustainable procedures? Primary is self-contradictory. He should know from experience among those, surely, must be the agreement of an of the UQ last year that I will always give him a very EU-UK veterinary protocol. Will the Secretary of State straight answer, even if it is a difficult one. The situation, update the House on what is happening on that—what as I said to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley, is barriers remain to an agreement of that sort and when that these measures are lawful. They are within our we can expect to hear of its successful conclusion? obligations delivering on the protocol. They are operational. They are temporary, but I also say to him that we are Brandon Lewis: The right hon. Gentleman makes an entirely consistent. We are consistent through all these important point. We do want to work with the EU on a measures that our core focus is protecting the Good range of issues, and part of the issue around extending Friday/Belfast agreement, the peace process and ensuring these grace periods was ensuring that we did not have a that we respect that—not just north-south, but east-west cliff edge and that we had that time and space for as well. businesses to adapt and for us to work through some issues with the EU in a mutual way that works for Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con) [V]: The everybody,as we have done this year. There were examples Government have done well to postpone the bureaucratic through January, on VAT on second-hand cars and problems of shipments into Northern Ireland and have other issues, where we worked through agreements with worked hard to resolve them, but sadly, issues persist. the EU that have worked to deliver on some of the Does the Secretary of State agree that fresh minds issues for people in Northern Ireland, and we want to should be brought to bear on the conundrum? The continue that way. Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, for example, could The reason we made the decision last week was call on new help and advice from qualified business purely that we were at this time-critical point. Because experts. of the way supply lines and timelines work, if we had not made the decision last week, it would have been too Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a good point. late, even this week or next week, to prevent issues for I have been fortunate in this role to be able to engage supply lines into Northern Ireland. Going forward, we with and have advice and recommendations from the want to continue to work with the EU, including on Northern Ireland business community through the business issues such as that which the right hon. Gentleman engagement forum, which we pull together and which outlined. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State meets regularly. That has been invaluable. I have also for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is working welcomed the engagement via the Joint Committee with his counterparts in the EU on those very issues now. structures with representatives from business and civic society in Northern Ireland, of which more has been committed to. I hope that Vice-President Šefcˇovicˇand Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): Article SPS.5, his team will be able to engage in more of that more paragraph 3(d) of the trade and co-operation agreement quickly; it has been a few weeks since the last one. I obliges the EU to ensure that its sanitary and phytosanitary think that it is important that we continue to take those procedures meetings forward and that it would be good to have as “are proportionate to the risks identified”. much business involvement and contribution to this as Is it not inconsistent with that provision for the EU to possible, because that is what informs a perfectly good, seek to end the grace period and impose full SPS really solid understanding of the needs of business for checks, given that our food standards are every bit as those flows of supplies for the people of Northern good as its and some of the toughest in the whole world? Ireland.

Brandon Lewis: My right hon. Friend, who has a (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab) huge wealth of experience at the Dispatch Box in this [V]: The Prime Minister is far keener to celebrate a particular field, is, unsurprisingly, absolutely right. We yet-to-be-built bridge between Great Britain and Northern have fantastic, very high food standards here; they are Ireland than to take responsibility for the barriers that world leading. That is why I hope and, as I say, I think it he has put there. Just five weeks ago, he said that the is right that we will be able, ultimately, to secure a good protocol must not and practical, pragmatic agreement with the EU. Again, “place… barriers of any kind…down the Irish sea.”—[Official that just outlines why it was so important for us to take Report, 3 February 2021; Vol. 688, c. 948.] that action last week in order to ensure that we have the Will the Secretary of State explain, then, why he negotiated space to do exactly that. an agreement that did just that?

Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): Previously, Brandon Lewis: The hon. Lady may want to have a it was “limited” and “specific” and now it is operational look at the Command Paper that we published last and pragmatic—different words, but the net result is summer around how the protocol can work. It was very still the same. The Secretary of State touched on this in clear about making sure that we had a pragmatic and 873 Northern Ireland Protocol10 MARCH 2021 Northern Ireland Protocol 874 flexible approach, so that goods could flow cleanly and because we are committed to delivering on our obligations simply for people in Northern Ireland. We have also in a pragmatic and sensible way for the people and always been very clear about building on the SPS checks, businesses of Northern Ireland. That is why it is important which, in one form or another, have been there since the we use the grace period to work with the EU to get 19th century. That is the reality of recognising the single permanent solutions to ensure that those kinds of products epidemiological unit of the island of Ireland—we have can continue to flow in the way that they should be able always been up front and clear about that. We are also to, the way they have, and the way that the Command clear that we want to make sure that there is not just Paper and the protocol always envisaged they would. unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses to mainland Great Britain, which we have done, but this Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I welcome good, flexible free flow. The impact that we have seen these measures. Does the Secretary of State agree that it over the last few weeks is why we had to take the is incumbent on him and the Government to make sure decisions that we did last week to ensure that we have that certain foods and indeed medicines reach citizens time for businesses to adapt and time in other areas to in every part of the United Kingdom, whether they be work with the EU to get permanent and long-term in England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland and solutions. that to have not taken these measures would have been irresponsible? How on earth could they therefore be Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con) [V]: We in seen as any breach of international law or as putting the Conservative and Unionist party value Northern any peace process at risk? Ireland’s place in our United Kingdom. Indeed, we take the view that my home town of Belfast is as much a part Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. of the United Kingdom as my Bournemouth constituency. Picking up on his last point, I ask colleagues to pause While the protocol is an obvious recognition of the fact for a moment and think about where we would be if we that there are two sovereign jurisdictions on the island had not taken those actions. In the next couple of of Ireland, one of which remains a member of the weeks, we would have had empty shelves in Northern European Union, it is clear that at least so far,the protocol Ireland. What would that have meant in terms of tensions is not working as we had intended. As the Government in Northern Ireland? I personally think that would be look to the future, does my right hon. Friend agree that an untenable situation for the protocol. I think the we need to work with businesses in Northern Ireland, decisions we took were important in terms of ensuring all the parties in Northern Ireland, the EU and our we can deliver on the protocol and show that the friends in the Irish Government to ensure that the protocol can work in a pragmatic and sensible way that solutions are pragmatic and practical going forward, works for businesses and people in Northern Ireland. and crucially, that those solutions must recognise and We took the decision on the advice of businesses, and acknowledge Northern Ireland’s place in our United that is why businesses have roundly supported the position Kingdom and the economic, social, political and trading and the actions we took last week. position that Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom demands? Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance) [V]: I want to see extensions to the grace periods, but on a sound legal Brandon Lewis: The short answer is yes, absolutely. basis. If the protocol is to be sustainable, we need to see My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point. Northern a genuine partnership between the UK and the EU to Ireland is an integral part of the United Kingdom. The fix problems, not Northern Ireland becoming a pawn in economic flows around the United Kingdom are obviously a war of attrition with the EU. Does the Secretary of important to the whole of the United Kingdom. The State recognise that unilateral actions undermine the United Kingdom has the strength it has because of all constructive voices inside the EU that were working to the parts of the UK: England, Scotland, Wales and achieve flexibilities, and therefore make finding long-term Northern Ireland. I have to say—I know he agrees with sustainable solutions more difficult, including a veterinary me on this; it is something he rightly feels passionate agreement? about—that the United Kingdom is stronger because Northern Ireland is in it. Brandon Lewis: I share with the hon. Gentleman the desire to work all these things through as partners and Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP) [V]: Last Friday, to get an agreement with our partners in the EU on the Government announced some temporary—I stress issues like this. We would have liked to have done so the word temporary—operational measures, one of which with these issues. Sadly, the EU had not come to an lifted the ludicrous ban on bulbs and vegetables grown agreement on some of these issues. Ultimately, we have in British soil being sent from GB to NI if they still have to do what is right by the people of the United Kingdom soil attached. Does the Secretary of State agree that and, of course, within the United Kingdom the people there was never any rational basis for the ban and that of Northern Ireland. Much as we would have liked to with or without European Commission agreement the have had an agreement with the EU over the decisions Government will maintain the ability to move such last week, if we had not taken those decisions last week, products from GB to Northern Ireland not only now businesses were clear with us, there would have been an but in the future? Our businesses need and deserve a impact. Even if we had taken the decisions this week or cast-iron guarantee. next week, it would already have been too late to prevent a detrimental impact for businesses and people Brandon Lewis: The hon. Lady makes a very important in Northern Ireland. I just say to colleagues that we point. She is absolutely right: businesses want certainty. took those decisions last week because of the time They want guarantees going forward. We took the urgency, the time-critical situation we were in. Going decision last week to extend some of the grace periods. forward and at all times we would much rather always She is correct that this is temporary. It is temporary agree things with the EU. Of course, that needs both 875 Northern Ireland Protocol10 MARCH 2021 Northern Ireland Protocol 876

[Brandon Lewis] Ireland—so we want to be working together on that. I hope that that will continue. The working across between partners to want to agree them and sadly as of last week the Irish Government, the UK Government and the the EU did not want to. I hope we will be able to Northern Ireland Executive has been very strong over re-engage and make sure that these problems are solved the past year. I have been pleased to be able to chair the more permanently in agreement with the EU. Joint Committee with my sort of opposite number, Simon Coveney, where we have been bringing together Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): I welcome the measures our relevant Ministers to work together on the battle my right hon. Friend has taken. Can he confirm that as with covid for the benefit of people in both the Republic he continues to work with the European Union to find of Ireland and Northern Ireland. those lasting solutions to the protocol, he will absolutely hold them to the commitment they are reported to have Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP) made in the Joint Committee to “act at pace” and [V]:The Secretary of State has referred to the temporary continue to further engage with the people of Northern nature of last week’s announcement, as well as the Ireland on the issues relating to the protocol? tensions that have resulted from the implementation of the protocol for some months now. Does he grasp fully Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. the degree of resentment that exists in Unionism in There was a commitment to act at pace. As I say, we Northern Ireland, where the consent from the Unionist would have liked to have come to agreement on these community has now diminished to the point where issues, but the pace issue got ahead of us and we had to radical action and radical steps have to be taken by his make those urgent decisions last week to avoid further Government as a matter of urgency? disruptions and problems for people in Northern Ireland. I hope that as we go forward we can work at pace Brandon Lewis: I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman together to make sure that there are ultimately the outlines a strength of feeling that is absolutely there. solutions to this that work for people across the UK. The tension and palpable feeling within the Unionist Ultimately, that is in the best interests of the EU; it is community over what has happened in the past few also in the interests of the protocol. weeks is clear, particularly following the action on that Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) [V]: First, what effect Friday night. I know he has made the case quite strongly has there been since January on time-sensitive Northern about that. This is why it is important that we all work Ireland food exports to Great Britain via the Republic hard to ensure that we can find a pragmatic, flexible of Ireland and Welsh ports? Secondly, what would the way to move forward to ensure that we can deliver Secretary of State say to Neil Alcock, of Seiont Nurseries things for the people in Northern Ireland in the way in Arfon, just 30 miles from Holyhead, who says that he that was always intended. Ultimately, the future of the has found a way to export his plants: they go through protocol will be in the hands of the people of Northern Wales, then through England, then on a sea crossing, Ireland, through the consent mechanism. then through the Netherlands, Belgium and France, Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): Can my and then on another sea crossing to the Republic, and right hon. Friend confirm that he will continue to work thence onwards? with the EU, and hold it to its recent commitment in the Brandon Lewis: I would say that we are working to Joint Committee to act at pace in further negotiations ensure that he does not have to go through that kind of and in so doing always act in the best interests of the rigmarole and can continue to trade in his business, for people of Northern Ireland? the benefit of his employees and the customers he is serving in Northern Ireland. That kind of flexibility is Brandon Lewis: Yes, absolutely. From talking in the probably why the Irish Government sensibly put in meetings we have had with Vice-President Maroš Šefcˇovicˇ, flexibilities on security and safety declarations just a I absolutely believe his commitment to wanting not few weeks ago—it is not that dissimilar. What is surprising only to work at pace but to understand the sense and is to have Opposition Members criticising the UK feeling across the entire community and businesses in Government for taking actions similar to those they Northern Ireland. We had the engagement we organised never challenged the Irish Government on just a few for him just a few weeks ago, and the EU has pledged to weeks ago. do more of that engagement, which is a good thing, so that it can fully understand the needs of both communities Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con) [V]: Can my right and the business community in Northern Ireland. That hon. Friend confirm that he is reassured that the EU is an important thing to continue as we move forward. now has no desire to block suppliers fulfilling contracts for vaccine distribution to Northern Ireland and the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Secretary rest of the UK? Does he agree that it is only through of State for his actions in the last week. Is he aware that international collaboration that we will beat this pandemic businesses on the mainland are already losing business once and for all? as Northern Ireland retailers scramble to source supplies from outside the United Kingdom? An example is a Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. nursery retailer in my constituency which, for the first This is a global pandemic and we need to work together time in its 75-year history, is ordering from non-UK globally to combat it, get on top of it and be able to firms. It has had to place orders outside the UK economy move back to normal life. That is particularly the case for the first time, to the tune of £10,000. Will the on the island of Ireland, where that single epidemiological Secretary of State outline when he will draw a line, not unit means we have people who work, live, school, shop just short-term but long-term, and end this protocol, and enjoy their lives in normal times on both sides of which financially damages all the economies of the the border—in Northern Ireland and the Republic of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? 877 Northern Ireland Protocol10 MARCH 2021 Northern Ireland Protocol 878

Brandon Lewis: I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman in Ireland to work together with their UK equivalents has been consistent in his views on the protocol more to build trust and to work out how we can enforce the widely, and I would say to him that our work is going to rules and tackle the key risks while leaving the border in be focused on working with the EU to find pragmatic, a workable position that businesses can manage? sensible, flexible solutions to ensure that the protocol can work. It is part of our obligation and commitment Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes an important under the protocol to work in a way that is beneficial for and fair point. The Irish Government and their agencies the people of Northern Ireland so that they can continue work closely with the UK Government and our agencies to have the flow of products that they have always and with the Northern Ireland Executive on a wide experienced. Ultimately, this will mean that Northern range of issues to the benefit of people in the Republic Ireland has a huge competitive advantage and a unique of Ireland and Northern Ireland, and it is important position in the world from which it can see its economy that we continue to do that. He also highlights why it is grow in the years ahead. important that we continue to be very clear about the needs of the people of Northern Ireland—why the Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): The Northern protocol was put in place—recognising the unique Ireland protocol is an imperfect solution to a complex circumstances and the complexity of the situation in problem, ensuring that we continue to protect peace on Northern Ireland, and ensuring that the relationship the island of Ireland and Northern Ireland’s place in with the Republic of Ireland can work in a smooth and the United Kingdom. Will my right hon. Friend confirm effective way. As I have said before, I absolutely recognise that that remains the Government’s priority, as it should that the EU’s core, prime focus is on the protection of be for every Member of this House? the single market. We are focused not just on protecting the businesses and people of the United Kingdom but Brandon Lewis: Absolutely. It is important that all of on the core determination and commitment to deliver us in this House continually reinforce the point—I will on the Good Friday-Belfast agreement in all of its always do—that the UK Government’s commitment to strands. the Belfast-Good Friday agreement is unwavering, and Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab) [V]: I support the our recognition of that and all of its strands is important. aim of trying to minimise unnecessary and disruptive That does not conflict with our view that Northern is an checks, but, on the method, can the Secretary of State integral part of the United Kingdom and that the tell the House under which article of the Northern United Kingdom is better for Northern Ireland being Ireland protocol the Government have taken this decision, in it. which he describes as “lawful”, to extend the grace periods? Is it article 16, which allows the UK unilaterally Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab): Does the to take appropriate safeguard measures? If not, which Secretary of State think the people of Northern Ireland other article is he citing as giving the Government the are stupid? The Government said that there would ability lawfully to take this step? never be a border in the Irish sea; then they signed up to one. Then they pretended it did not exist, but said that Brandon Lewis: As the right hon. Gentleman will be even if it did, they were sure it would have no impact aware, the article 16 implementation was effectively anyway. Now they are saying that, actually, there is one, made by the EU just a few weeks ago, not by the UK but we can just ignore it. Will the right hon. Gentleman Government; that is what has started and led to some of stop taking people for fools and start showing the the issues and tensions we have seen in the communities responsible leadership required to sort this out? of Northern Ireland. I am pleased that the EU has apologised for that, but we need to recognise that it has Brandon Lewis: I assume that the hon. Gentleman had a lasting impact. The measures that I announced therefore supports the moves we took last week in last Wednesday are lawful and consistent with the showing leadership to deliver for the people of Northern progressive and good-faith implementation of the protocol. Ireland. We have been consistent in what we wanted to They are temporary operational easements, introduced deliver, and we have delivered unfettered access for where additional delivery time is needed. They do not Northern Ireland businesses to the rest of the UK change our legal obligations as set out in the protocol— market. We were always clear that we recognised the under any of its articles—and we continue to discuss single epidemiological unit of the island of Ireland, our protocol implementation with the Joint Committee. which meant that those sanitary and phytosanitary These measures are of a kind that is well precedented checks would be built upon and put in place, as they in the context of trade practice internationally, and they have been. As the Command Paper outlined, we want are consistent with our intention to discharge the obligations to see a clear, flexible ability for businesses to trade, so under the protocol in good faith. As I have said before, that consumers in Northern Ireland will not see their the measures are in line with the kind of flexibilities that everyday lives disrupted. In fact, the early paragraphs of the Irish Government put in place, and neither the right the protocol highlight that that is the intention of the hon. Gentleman nor any other Opposition Member has protocol. That is what we have to focus on, and that is yet criticised or challenged the Irish Government for what the decisions last week were about. what they did. We think those are sensible measures; there are flexibilities that the Irish Government thought Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) [V]: Does the Secretary they needed in the same way that we do with these of State agree that the unique status of Northern Ireland measures. means that it will not be possible for the EU to enforce its single market rules in the same way there as it can (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): I am elsewhere in the EU? Does he also agree that the only sure that my right hon. Friend welcomes the interest way to achieve a sustainable solution is for the agencies that is being shown by friends and partners around the 879 Northern Ireland Protocol10 MARCH 2021 Northern Ireland Protocol 880

[Tom Tugendhat] with which we want to work, that the UK is a reliable trading partner—and other forms of partner—because world in Northern Ireland as an essential part of the that is not there today? United Kingdom—friends who are so interested in our status and in the work that we are trying to do to make Brandon Lewis: I am disappointed that the hon. one area of our country prosper. I am sure that he Gentleman did not make similar comments about the welcomes the interest that President Biden has shown, moves that the Irish Government made in January and as well as many in the Irish caucus of the United States. the flexibilities they put in place. He should support the Today, Mr Coveney and Mr Šefcˇovicˇare meeting the UK Government in doing what is right for the people of Irish caucus in Washington. Will my right hon. Friend Northern Ireland. I hope that, working with our partners tell me who is there from Her Majesty’s Government, in the EU, these temporary, pragmatic measures will representing the people of Northern Ireland? Is perhaps give us the space to be able to get permanent, long-term the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth solutions, in partnership. Ultimately, we will do what is and Development Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member right for the people of Northern Ireland in respecting for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton), or one of the the Good Friday/Belfast agreement. Ministers going to be in that room, ensuring that the Irish voice that is represented Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): I support the by this House is also present? Government in taking necessary and proportionate action to defend Northern Irish business, but the Secretary of Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend, as always, makes an State will know that this House should be committed to important point. I welcome our friends and partners the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern around the world taking an interest in any part of the Ireland and that we cannot treat people in one part of UK. Our friends in the US have always had a very clear the kingdom differently from those in the rest. Will he interest in issues and matters around Northern Ireland, please redouble his efforts to build closer bilateral relations and have been huge supporters of the Good Friday/Belfast with our Irish friends? These things are best sorted out agreement for many years. In this role, I have had between Britain and Ireland, keeping the EU well away continuous engagement with colleagues in the Irish from the issue. caucus who are meeting Vice-President Šefcˇovicˇ and Simon Coveney today. I look forward to talking to Brandon Lewis: I am keen on making sure that we them again in due course myself. I do not think that we have really good bilateral relationships. I have worked are involved as a Government in that meeting today, but with members of the Irish Government over the past I hope that Vice-President Šefcˇovicˇwill continue that year and we always have very productive and positive kind of engagement, particularly with the people of conversations. They are good partners to work with. Northern Ireland—in both the business community The Irish Government are obviously part of the EU and civic society—building on the meeting that we had and our negotiation is with the EU, as I am sure my a few weeks ago, as he said he would, to really understand hon. Friend will appreciate. I hope we will be able to some of the issues affecting people and businesses in have a pragmatic and positive relationship with our Northern Ireland, and therefore work with us in a partners in the EU, as together we find solutions to this positive way to remedy any issues. I welcome any interest issue that are in the interests of people in Northern from people around the world and their support for all Ireland and, yes, in the interests of the whole of the UK strands of the Good Friday agreement. and, indeed, the EU as well.

Tony Lloyd () (Lab) [V]: To be fair to the Mr Speaker: I am suspending the House for three Secretary of State, he has made very little attempt to minutes to enable the necessary arrangements to be persuade the House or anybody else that the Prime made for the next business. Minister knew what he was doing when he signed up to the protocol, but does he recognise that he is now going to have to do a repair job to persuade not just Dublin, 1.25 pm Brussels and Washington, but the whole of the world Sitting suspended. 881 10 MARCH 2021 : Electoral Reforms 882

Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms This Government have a duty to the people of Hong Kong to guarantee their rights and the integrity of their democratic institutions.The proposals made at the National 1.29 pm People’s Congress spell the end of democracy and of Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD) one country, two systems in Hong Kong, and are another (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for blatant breach of the Sino-British joint declaration. In Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs if response to my last urgent question on this, the Minister he will make a statement on the planned reforms to told the House that the UK Hong Kong’s electoral system by the Chinese National “will stand up for the people of Hong Kong”, People’s Congress. and “hold to its international obligations.”—[Official Report, The Minister for Asia (Nigel Adams): The United 12 November 2020; Vol. 683, c. 1051.] Kingdom is deeply concerned about the situation in Hong Kong and the erosion of rights enshrined under Well, here we are again. Almost every prominent member the Sino-British joint declaration. In response to these of the democratic movement is in jail. The BBC has worrying developments, the United Kingdom has already been banned in China. Our ambassador has been rebuked taken decisive action. This includes offering a bespoke just yesterday, and now free and fair elections are being immigration path for British nationals overseas, suspending erased. Surely by now, any red line that might have our extradition treaty with Hong Kong indefinitely and existed has been well and truly crossed. extending our arms embargo on mainland China to On Hong Kong, China behaves like a bully, and Hong Kong. The United Kingdom has led international bullies only understand words when they are followed action to hold China to account. As recently as 22 February, by concerted action. Does the Minister really believe the addressed the UN Human Rights that it is going to step back? Will the Government now Council to call out the systematic violation of the rights impose Magnitsky sanctions and other measures on the of the people of Hong Kong, making it clear that free officials responsible, such as Carrie Lam and Xia Baolong? and fair legislative elections must take place with a Sanctions were applied in the cases of Belarus and range of opposition voices allowed to take part. Alexei Navalny. Why there and not here, when we have a On the question raised by the hon. Member for direct duty of care? Will the Government take this case Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran), this week to the International Court of Justice? It is up to us to meetings of China’s National People’s Congress are lead that international co-ordinated effort to hold China taking place behind closed doors. We understand that to account. What conversations has the Minister had the agenda includes proposals for changes to Hong with our allies to join us in any actions we take? Kong’s election processes. Although the detail is yet to I hope that Members across the House will join me in be revealed, these measures might include changes to putting on record how welcome all Hongkongers using the election of the Chief Executive, the removal of the British national overseas scheme are to this country. district councillors from the Chief Executive election I am distressed to hear that some are now being targeted committee and the possible introduction of vetting for by China for doing so. Enough is enough. I urge this those standing for public office to ensure that they are Government to take immediate action to protect Hong described as patriots who govern Hong Kong. Such Kong, its democracy and human rights, as they are measures, if introduced, would be a further attack on obliged to do under international law.No more excuses—it Hong Kong’s rights and freedoms. is time for real action. Ahead of possible developments this week, the United Kingdom has raised our concerns, including with the Nigel Adams: I thank the hon. Lady for bringing this Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Hong Kong urgent question to the House. As she rightly says, we Government and the Chinese embassy in , as will continue to bring together international partners to have many of our international partners. The Chinese stand up for the people of Hong Kong, to call out the and Hong Kong authorities can be in no doubt about violation of their freedoms and to hold China to its the seriousness of our concerns.Given recent developments, international obligations. It is worth reminding her that including the imposition of the national security law the National People’s Congress is currently debating last year, the imposition of new rules to disqualify electoral reform behind closed doors. We have made elected legislators in November and the mass arrests of clear our concerns and urge the authorities to uphold activists in January, we are right to be deeply concerned. their commitments to the people of Hong Kong. She We are seeing concerted action to stifle democracy and mentioned this being a clear breach of the joint declaration. the voices of those who are fighting for it. We declared two breaches of the joint declaration in There is still time for the Chinese and Hong Kong 2020 in response to the national security law, and when authorities to step back from further action to restrict the details of these proposals are published by the NPC, the rights and freedoms of Hongkongers, and to respect we will closely examine them. Hong Kong’s high degree of autonomy. We will continue The hon. Lady also referenced our new ambassador working with our partners to stand up for the people of to Beijing, who was summoned by the Chinese MFA in Hong Kong and hold China to its international obligations, response to an article that was posted to the embassy’s freely assumed under international law, including through WeChat account in her name. I strongly support the the legally binding Sino-British joint declaration. work of our ambassador in Beijing and the rest of the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office on Layla Moran [V]: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, this important issue. The United Kingdom is committed for granting this urgent question, and I would like to to media freedom and to championing democracy and thank the Minister for his reply. human rights around the world. 883 Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms10 MARCH 2021 Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms 884

Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): I role of the China General Nuclear Power group, which start by saying that Caroline Wilson enjoys the support owns one third of Hinkley Point, but has been blacklisted of the Foreign Affairs Committee and, I am sure, in the US for stealing nuclear secrets? everyone in this House in championing media freedom The Conservative party is deeply divided over China, and the right of a free press to criticise a Government—even, but we cannot afford any more dither and delay. Will perhaps, this one. the Minister work across Government to undertake an The actions that Her Majesty’s Government have audit of the UK’s relationship with China and come taken in recent months are very welcome. Despite the back with a clear strategy to replace their failed golden list that the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon era policy? What steps has the Minister taken to deliver (Layla Moran) set out, the welcoming of British nationals a co-ordinated international response to China’s assaults overseas—the correcting of a wrong that we all made in on democracy and human rights and, finally, where on 1984—and of Hong Kong people to the UK is important earth are those Magnitsky sanctions? in standing up for the values that we signed into international law when we signed the Sino-British joint Nigel Adams: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his declaration. questions. He will have heard the response that I gave to I must welcome one or two things that the hon. Lady the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the said, one of which was about Magnitsky sanctions. We Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat), really do need to see greater action. I welcome what my on Magnitsky sanctions.With regard to CGN’sinvolvement right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has said in the in our nuclear sector, obviously, investment involving past in championing Magnitsky sanctions and ensuring critical infrastructure is subject to thorough scrutiny that they come into law. We now need to see names put and needs to satisfy our robust legal, regulatory and to those charges, because this has gone on long enough. national security requirements, and all projects of this We know that the abuses of human rights in Hong nature are conducted under that regulation to ensure Kong have continued, and we need to stand up for those that our interests are protected. who have been targeted. As with all foreign policy priorities, the FCDO recognises the importance of cross-Whitehall collaboration, Nigel Adams: I thank the Chairman of the Foreign particularly on Hong Kong. The Foreign Secretary Affairs Committee, in particular for his work on this regularly chairs a ministerial group meeting attended by issue and his support for our excellent ambassador, Ministers from across Whitehall and a number of Caroline Wilson. He mentions sanctions. As he will Departments. We obviously take any threat to the joint know, we do not speculate on who may be designated. declaration very seriously, but we need to wait and see They are just one tool in our arsenal. The UK has what comes out of the National People’s Congress already offered a new immigration path for BNOs, before making an assessment. We have already called a which my hon. Friend raised. We have suspended our breach twice last year, but the hon. Gentleman will need extradition treaty with Hong Kong and extended our to wait until we have seen what comes out of the NPC. arms embargo on mainland China to Hong Kong, and that is all in response to Beijing’s behaviour. On BNOs and the integration of BNO passport holders, that is a really important question. We are (Aberavon) (Lab): Beijing’s assault working across Government and alongside civil society on Hong Kong’s electoral system is the latest breach of groups and others to support the integration of those the Sino-British declaration and is viewed by experts as thousands of people who will be taking up that route the final nail in the coffin of Hong Kong’s democracy. It and arriving here. We encourage and look forward to follows the arrest and charging of 47 opposition politicians, welcoming applications from those who wish to make 32 of whom were refused bail. As a signatory to the the United Kingdom their home. The Foreign Secretary Sino-British declaration, the UK has not only a legal has met the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities duty but a moral responsibility to stand up for the and Local Government to discuss exactly this issue. I democratic rights and freedoms of the people of Hong know that the hon. Gentleman has been in contact with Kong. As parliamentarians, we will feel a sense of one of the Ministers at the Ministry of Housing, profound sadness as we witness this steady suffocation Communities and Local Government, and we look of democracy. For the past few months, the UK forward to seeing the outcome of those discussions, Government have just been going through the motions, because it is absolutely crucial that we support those so may I ask the Minister these questions? individuals who are coming here from Hong Kong. Labour welcomes the BNO offer, but there appears Sir (Chingford and Woodford to have been very little planning, and a family of four Green) (Con) [V]: I congratulate the hon. Member for need £16,000 up front. What steps is the Minister taking Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) on securing to ensure that the scheme is accessible to all BNOs, and his timely urgent question. I say to my hon. Friend the what steps are the Government taking to support their Minister that we have heard a lot of this already before. integration into British society? The problem that we have in waiting for the National Hong Kong Watch’s latest report describes Hong People’s Congress to come to a decision is that we Kong as being a “canary in the coalmine” of China’s know what will happen. The Chinese Government have expansionism, so what assessment have the UK already dismissed the Foreign Secretary’s comments Government made of the threats facing Taiwan, given about their failures and essentially told him to mind his that Chinese fighter jets and bombers buzzed Taiwanese own business, despite the fact that we are co-signatories airspace more than 300 times last year? to that agreement. Furthermore, we have evidence from China’s growing presence in the UK’s critical national Xinjiang, Tibet, the Christians, the Falun Gong, the infrastructure clearly has implications for our own national entries into the South China sea, and the abuse on the security. What assessment has the Minister made of the border with India. 885 Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms10 MARCH 2021 Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms 886

The real problem is that we sit and wait for something issues. We are working closely with our international really substantial to happen. Other countries have moved, partners, and the work we have done with the US, with but we have still not come forward with Magnitsky Canada and with Australia, and the statements made sanctions, which were promised again and again. When by the Foreign Secretary have managed to bring together will this happen? That is the only real action we can take the international community. As a co-signatory to this that tells the Chinese that we have had enough of their joint declaration, we have a responsibility to uphold the behaviour and that they now have to step back into line content and a duty to speak out when we have concerns. with the international order or they will be sanctioned. When we do so, it is a matter of trust, and leaders of the international community, including China, also need to Nigel Adams: My right hon. Friend asks about action. live up to their responsibilities. Well, the action that we have taken on Hong Kong is substantial. He knows the answer on Magnitsky Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con): There seems to be sanctions—we do not speculate on whom, and this is a no purpose in having the Magnitsky sanctions as a tool policy area that is under constant review. Let me give but popping them on a shelf. If the Minister or the him an example of our action. In response to the arrests Department feel vulnerable in applying them in a solo in January, the Foreign Secretary issued a joint statement fashion, what work is being done with the Five Eyes alongside his Australian, Canadian and US counterparts countries to introduce co-ordinated Magnitsky sanctions underscoring our concern. He also released a further against the Hong Kong and Chinese officials responsible statement following the charges of conspiracy to commit for the national security laws? My hon. Friend the subversion brought against 47 of those arrested. We Minister mentioned our allies the Americans. Just this have made the very generous BNO offer. We have made morning, the Biden Administration reconfirmed their it clear that in our view the national security law violates belief that genocide is taking place against the Uyghur the joint declaration, and its use in this way to stifle at the hands of the Chinese state. What work is being political dissent contradicts the promises made by the done with the Minister’s counterparts in America to Chinese Government as a co-signatory. prevent this genocide from carrying on?

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): We Nigel Adams: I thank my hon. Friend for the assiduous have a video link to Alyn Smith, the SNP spokesperson, way in which she pursues this matter. She knows exactly who has one minute. what the longstanding policy of the British Government is: any judgment on whether genocide has occurred is a Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) [V]: I do feel for the matter for a competent court, rather than for Governments Minister in this discussion, and in the further ones we or non-judicial bodies. She mentioned the United States. will have about Hong Kong. I will do my best to be It has a different process for determining genocide that constructive. We are agreed across the House that Hong is not linked to a court decision. Of course, given our Kong matters are not a domestic affair specifically and longstanding policy over many decades that this is a only for Beijing. They are subject to an international matter for a competent court, she will understand the agreement and subject to international law. If these reason behind the responses that she may have heard measures to curtail democracy come forward—let us be once or twice before. I make no apologies for having to realistic, we are talking about how and when, not if—it repeat myself to her. will be increasingly clear that the UK Government and Chris Bryant: I find this so frustrating. We come back global Britain look increasingly toothless, powerless time and again, and we hear exactly the same old words: and, most worryingly, friendless in this discussion. I do “We’re not allowed to speculate about using the Magnitsky not say that the UK has done nothing within the UN, sanctions.” We do not want anybody to speculate; we but where is the global coalition to move beyond warm want them to use them. It is like they are z, the unnecessary words, inaction and concern to action against the economic letter. It is like they are an appendix that we are never interests of China. There are measures that can be prepared to use for any bodily function. We should be taken and I would be grateful if the Minister updated us using them. To be honest, it feels as if the Government on what assessment has been made of the impact of the are completely two-faced on this—not individual Ministers, sanctions on Chinese economic interests domestically but the Government—because one day the Government here, however we define domestically, and in the academic say, “Yes, it’s terrible what’s happening in Hong Kong. community as well. There are things that can be done Yes, it’s terrible what’s happening in Xinjiang province,” while we push towards the international coalition. and the next day the Prime Minister says that he is “fervently Sinophile”. Frankly, we should be calling this Nigel Adams: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we out with a great deal of urgency, and we should be using cannot speculate on our sanctions regime. I understand every single tool in the box, so please Minister do not why he and many hon. Members will ask the same give us all the old stuff all over again. Just get on and question, but we cannot speculate on who may be do it. designated under this regime— Nigel Adams: The hon. Gentleman needs to be Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Yes we can! congratulated for the work that he has done in the first place, working cross party, to allow and help the Foreign Nigel Adams: No, we can’t. That would be rather foolish. Secretary to deliver our own sanctions regime. Again, As I have said, sanctions are just one tool in our we continue to hold China to account. Welead international arsenal. We have already offered the immigration path efforts in that regard. We work very closely with not just for BNOs, as I said, and cancelled the extradition treaty. the US Administration. We have a huge opportunity I have an awful lot of time for the hon. Member for this year through our presidency of the G7. What I will Stirling (Alyn Smith), who is very constructive on these say to him—I will try to use slightly different language 887 Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms10 MARCH 2021 Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms 888

[Nigel Adams] Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): Before I call the next speaker, let me just say that I want from that in the answer I provided to my hon. Friend to get everybody in on this urgent question, and we have the Member for Wealden (Ms Ghani)—is that we are two very well-subscribed debates later, so I ask for carefully and closely considering further designations single questions, and I am sure the Minister will be under our global human rights regime. They were succinct in his replies. introduced, as he knows, in July, and we will keep all evidence and potential listings under very close review. Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con) [V]: The reported proposals in China’s National People’s Congress to change Hong Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con) [V]: What assessment Kong’s electoral system will break the promises that she has the Foreign Secretary made of the impact of the has made and end democracy in Hong Kong. With national security law and the further dismantling of almost every prominent leader in Hong Kong’sdemocracy human rights in Hong Kong on freedom of religion or movement now on trial, in exile or in jail, what steps are belief, particularly in the light of the raid on Good the Government taking in multilateral institutions to Neighbour North District Church, the freezing of its hold China to account for her actions? bank account, and the Catholic diocese of Hong Kong’s instructions to clergy to be careful in their sermons? Nigel Adams: One example of that was on 22 February, What implications does the proposed national security when the Foreign Secretary addressed the education curriculum have for FORB in faith schools Human Rights Council calling out the systematic violation there? of the rights of the people of Hong Kong. We have made it clear that free and fair legislative elections must Nigel Adams: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her take place. The impact of our diplomacy is reflected in work as the Prime Minister’s envoy for freedom of the growing number of countries supporting the statements religion or belief. We are deeply concerned about the that we have led or co-ordinated at the UN: we have issues that she has raised, and about the severity and gone from 23 countries to 39 within a year. This sends a scale of violations and the abuses of freedom of religion powerful message to China about the breadth of or belief in many parts of the world, including China. international concern. Religious intolerance and persecution are often at the heart of foreign and development policy challenges. John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab) [V]: Where freedom of religion or belief is under attack, Will the Minister raise with the Chinese authorities the other human rights are often threatened too, as she cases of Lee Cheuk-yan, the general secretary of the knows full well. The prosperity of Hong Kong and the Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions, and Carol way of life relies on respect for those fundamental Ng, its former chair, who have been arrested and charged freedoms. We are committed to defending freedom of with organising an illegal assembly and with subversion religion or belief for everyone. of the national security law for participating in the democratic primaries? What action do the Government Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP) [V]: intend to take against those UK-based companies that As the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) said, have expressed support for the national security law, freedom of expression is under attack in Hong Kong like HSBC and Jardine Matheson, and Swire, which has like never before. With the introduction of national victimised its workers who have expressed opposition to security education, new censorship guidelines encouraging this law? students and teachers to monitor each other for thought crime, and the removal of pro-democracy academics, Nigel Adams: Through our network, we raise our the chilling effect on the education sector in Hong Kong concerns and have constantly raised our concerns with is profound. Unfortunately, the UK Government’s visa the Hong Kong authorities, and we will continue to do programme favours the richest in Hong Kong society so. I will make sure that I get an update with reference because of the high costs of the BNO visa route. What to the two cases that the right hon. Gentleman refers to. steps will the UK Government take to make it easier for students, academics and intellectuals to seek refuge in Mr (Slough) (Lab): It is clear our democracy? that Conservative MPs are deeply divided over how to respond to the Chinese Government’s increasingly Nigel Adams: We are actively encouraging people and belligerent policies and actions, from its assault on their immediate family members to apply through our democracy in Hong Kong, to the genocide of the Uyghurs, new bespoke immigration route. They will be able to to its mistreatment of minorities and its aggression on come here to live, study and work. They will be able to the Indian border and in the South China sea. This choose whether to apply for 30 months’ leave in the first Government are increasingly out of step with opinion instance, followed by a further 30 months, or to apply in all parts of the House, so does the Minister agree that straight away for five years. Of course, there is an there is an urgent need for a cross-departmental strategy—it application fee, as well as the associated immigration is long overdue—for our engagement with China? If so, health surcharge. Since 23 February, applicants have what specifically is he doing to take that forward? been able to apply via a fully digitally accessed process. We did an impact assessment in October, and we now Nigel Adams: As I said in response to the hon. estimate that between 123,000 and 153,000 BNOs and Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) earlier, the their dependants could take up the route in its first year. Foreign Secretary chairs a cross-Government ministerial That is a forecast as exact uptake is likely to vary, but, group. We meet regularly cross-departmentally on all especially looking over five years, potentially between a issues to do with our engagement with China, including quarter of a million and 300,000 people will be using Hong Kong. The hon. Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi) this route—something the whole House will welcome. refers to the South China sea. We have made it very 889 Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms10 MARCH 2021 Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms 890 clear that we encourage all parties to settle their disputes trade talks with China in response to its inability to live peacefully through existing legal mechanisms, particularly up to its international treaty obligations? With this the UN convention on the law of the sea. Government’s shameful watering-down of the genocide amendment to the Trade Bill, and now this current Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con): Does my situation, how can the Minister reassure the general hon. Friend agree that it is only through working with public that the UK Government are not putting profit like-minded allies that we will be able to convey to above human rights? China the international community’s concerns about the erosion of democracy in Hong Kong? Will the Nigel Adams: Of course, the situation is not as the Minister ensure that those concerns, along with those of hon. Lady describes. I understand why she has put it in the Uyghur in Xinjiang, are raised when we host the G7 such terms, but we must remember what the Trade Bill later this year? is intended to do. Its key measures will deliver for UK businesses and for consumers across the UK, and it Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend raises a very good provides continuity and certainty as we take action to point. This is a real opportunity for the United Kingdom build a country that is more outward-looking than to raise important matters, as we have the presidency of before. The UK has long supported the promotion of the G7. It is absolutely crucial that China understands our values globally, and we are clear that more trade the breadth of international concern regarding its actions does not have to come at the expense of human rights. not just in Xinjiang but in Hong Kong, and we are taking a leading role in that regard. I referred to the Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con) [V]: Under the number of countries that have supported our statements Sino-British joint declaration, obligations exist that clearly at the UN General Assembly Third Committee rising state the UK will ensure a “high degree of autonomy” from 23 to 39, and that does send a very powerful and way of life in Hong Kong. While I applaud Her message to China. Majesty’s Government for introducing the BNO scheme to defend the rules-based international system, we must Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): ensure that China is held accountable, and that there Does the Minister share my assessment that it is are consequences for breaching a binding treaty. Will inappropriate for UK-based financial institutions, such my hon. Friend outline how his Department intends to as HSBC, to have corporate sponsorship in the UK, properly hold China to account for breaching the Sino- given their public support for the national security law British joint declaration? and the freezing of Ted Hui’s and his family’s bank accounts? Does he agree that this support undermines Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend raises a good point. the UK Government’s attempts to hold the Chinese We are a co-signatory to the joint declaration. We have Government to account? a responsibility to uphold the content, and a duty to speak out when we have concerns, which is what we Nigel Adams: The hon. Lady raises two important have done. We did so last year: the Foreign Secretary point. I met Ted Hui recently, in February, and we are in has declared two breaches of the joint declaration in close contact with a wide range of businesses in Hong response to the national security law, and, of course, Kong, but it is important that businesses themselves when the details that come out of the National People’s make their own judgment calls. Businesses, including Congress are published, we will examine them and HSBC in Hong Kong, have to do that. They need to be respond accordingly. able to stand by each decision they make publicly. We Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD) have made a historic commitment to the people of [V]: May I first reinforce the words of my hon. Friend Hong Kong to protect their autonomy and their freedom the Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla and, importantly, so did China when it signed the Moran) in extending the warmest possible welcome to Sino-British joint declaration. Hongkongers coming to the United Kingdom under Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con) [V]: Everybody the BNO passport scheme? As part of that, we should who values freedom and has an interest in standing all be calling out any increase in racially motivated together with the people of Hong Kong, but China’s abuse or violence against our own Chinese community. behaviour is a particular threat to the stability of that The Minister is quite right when he says that we region. What steps is my hon. Friend taking to strengthen should not speculate about the list of who might be relations in the Indo-Pacific to combat Chinese aggression subject to Magnitsky sanctions, but can I say to him in and the flouting of international law? the nicest possible way that that speculation will continue for as long as he and his colleagues in Government Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend raises a very important refuse to act? If he wants to end the speculation, the question. He will be aware that the Government are tools for that are in his own hands. Why will he not about to publish our integrated review,and our Indo-Pacific use them? tilt is not just about any one country, but how we respond to the challenges and opportunities across the Nigel Adams: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for whole of this dynamic and important region. We will the work he does with the all-party parliamentary group ensure that we deepen our many bilateral and multilateral on Hong Kong. He knows what I have to say about partnerships in the Indo-Pacific to address together key sanctions, and that to speculate would be unhelpful, but challenges in the region and globally. I will just say to him—as I have said to other hon. and right hon. Members this afternoon—that we are closely Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP) and constantly reviewing our sanctions regime. I know [V]: After these latest and most troubling examples of it is not the answer that he wants immediately, but that Beijing tightening its grip on Hong Kong, how can the is the situation. We will keep any designation under UK Government justify not suspending any further extremely close review. 891 Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms10 MARCH 2021 Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms 892

John Howell (Henley) (Con) [V]: Does my hon. Friend and others to make sure there is effective integration agree that China’s behaviour towards Hong Kong will of BNO status holders when they arrive in the United have a huge effect on China’s standing in the world, and Kingdom. particularly in Africa, where I have seen for myself the extent to which China is involved in the economies of a (Stockport) (Lab) [V]: Several whole range of countries? Does this not show that international media outlets have reported gross human China cannot be trusted as a member of the international rights abuses in Hong Kong, Xinjiang and Tibet. Today, community? 10 March, marks the anniversary of the 1959 Tibetan uprising against the presence of the People’s Republic Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend makes a very good of China and the subsequent crackdown on Tibetan point. No doubt he refers to the belt and road initiative independence groups. Does the Minister agree that that China has under way on that continent and elsewhere. senior Chinese Government officials who are responsible He is right to say that it is vital that China understands for these abuses should be sanctioned through the global the breadth of international concern about the situation human rights Magnitsky sanctions legislation? not just in Hong Kong but elsewhere, and we have made clear the extent of our concern directly to the Foreign Nigel Adams: The hon. Member is right to mention Secretary’s counterpart, Foreign Minister Wang Yi. It is Tibet. He knows the answer in terms of Magnitsky precisely because we recognise China’s role in the world, sanctions. We are very concerned about the human as a fellow member of the G20 and a fellow permanent rights situation in Tibet, where there are restrictions on member of the UN Security Council, that we expect it freedom of religion or belief, assembly and association, to live up to its international obligations and the as well as reports of forced labour. We are urging China responsibilities that come with that stature. to respect all fundamental rights across the People’s Republic of China, including in Tibet, in line both with (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) [V]: I China’s own constitution and with the international refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial framework to which it is a party. Interests. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): China is in Despite a degree of paranoia on the part of some in clear breach of the 1984 Sino-British joint declaration, mainland China, they should understand that nobody and we must stand with Hongkongers in their fight for here disputes its sovereignty over Hong Kong. We are, freedom. The Minister says that China understands the however, joint guarantors of the common law system, breadth of international concern about these issues. If democratic rights and freedoms continuing for 50 years China does understand, it does not seem to respect after handover. We care about these provisions because international opinion and is not respecting human rights our word is our bond. How do we move beyond statements within China and Hong Kong. May I join the calls for and actually deliver a co-ordinated international response Magnitsky sanctions sooner rather than later? with the US, the EU and democracies in the Indo-Pacific region to this assault on democracy on Hong Kong? Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is right to push this point and, of course, we are constantly reviewing our Nigel Adams: I agree totally with the hon. Gentleman’s regime, as he knows. We have raised our concerns assessment. This is an assault on democracy in Hong directly and with our international partners, and it is no Kong. It looks like what it says on the tin: it is an mean feat to have increased the number of countries attempt to stifle that democracy.As I outlined in previous signed up to our declaration in the manner in which we responses, we are working with international partners have over the past year. in this regard and we will continue to do so. We will continue to communicate directly with the Hong Kong Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) authorities and the authorities in China. We have taken (Ind) [V]: The Chinese Government insist that they are robust measures, and our presidency of the G7 this year within their rights to unilaterally propose these gives us a great opportunity to step up that work. undemocratic changes to Hong Kong’s constitutional framework, as Hong Kong’s Basic Law was enacted by Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con) the Chinese National People’s Congress. What assessment [V]: Will my right hon. Friend tell the House what has the Minister made of the validity of this claim and further discussions he is having with Five Eyes allies whether it contradicts the Sino-British joint declaration? and other allies so that BNO status holders, who are most welcome in the United Kingdom, have similar Nigel Adams: As the hon. Lady knows, we called two rights of abode in those countries? More importantly, if breaches of the joint declaration last year. We will have we all act in lockstep, we are much more likely to to wait and see what comes out of the National People’s influence China’s policy towards acting in accordance Congress, possibly this week, but who knows when we with international norms of behaviour. are likely to get an accurate read out? We will closely examine what comes out of this, and we will make it Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend makes a very good clear what action will be taken once we have seen it. point. We are of course liaising with our international partners, including our Five Eyes colleagues. The United Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con) [V]: My hon. Friend Kingdom is not the only country that is offering access talks about liaising with the United States on the actions for Hongkongers, certainly since the national security that the Communist party of China has taken in abusing law was introduced. He will know that this is a generous human rights in Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Tibet and elsewhere. offer for BNO status holders and their dependants. As Will he also follow the example of the Biden Administration I said, we are working with international partners, in reviewing this country’s critical infrastructure and across Government and alongside civil society groups supply chain links with the Chinese economy? 893 Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms10 MARCH 2021 Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms 894

Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, of Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Secretary course. This is something that we have under review, of State and every Member who has requested action, and we have a responsibility to do so. I think I mentioned as I do. Will the Secretary of State outline what steps early in my remarks, for example, the work we do with have been taken to co-ordinate with businesses in the China General Nuclear Power Group in the nuclear financial sector so that they play their part in letting the sector. He is right to raise it, and it is important that we Chinese Government understand that their continued continue to assess those arrangements regularly. acts of aggression, which make a mockery of any agreement at all, will have financial consequences? (Blaydon) (Lab) [V]: Can the Minister tell the House which Government Department has overall Nigel Adams: The hon. Gentleman speaks regularly responsibility for supporting the successful integration in this place on these issues and he has elevated me to of BNO passport holders coming from Hong Kong to Secretary of State. I thank him for that, but there has the UK? What support is available to Hongkongers not been a reshuffle just yet. [Interruption.] That is who are travelling to the UK under the BNO visa kind of the Opposition spokesman, but that has certainly extension? And how can he make the scheme equitable not occurred. I am, however, happy to be here responding to all those who wish to come? to this urgent question. We are regularly in touch with businesses in the region to make sure that they are living up to their responsibilities. Whatever decisions they Nigel Adams: The hon. Lady makes a fair point take they have to be responsible for publicly. That is about the offer to BNOs. Work is happening across probably the best way of putting the response to the Government, and the scheme is devised principally by hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). the , but in close collaboration with the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. We Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Does the are working very closely with the Ministry of Housing, Minister accept that an estimated 250 to 300 former Communities and Local Government, which has the naval and military personnel are at particular risk as work of ensuring there is proper support not just by Hongkongers who served the British Crown? Will he Government but across civil society and other groups to discuss with the Home Office the fact that it has said in ensure that those who take up this route arrive here with answer to questions, both in June last year and January the correct support. this year, that their situation is under review and that it is time for that review to be brought to a close and for Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con) [V]: The not-yet- those Hongkongers who served this country but were confirmed accounts of proposals being considered by not awarded citizenship to have their right to come here the National People’s Congress would, if true, contradict now granted? the commitment of the UK and China that the rights and freedoms of Hong Kong, including those of speech Nigel Adams: My right hon. Friend raises an important and assembly, will remain unchanged. Does the Minister point, and I assure him that I will have those conversations agree that they might also run against China’s own on behalf of those who have served the United Kingdom Basic Law for Hong Kong, article 45 of which states in the way he describes. that the ultimate aim of elections in Hong Kong is the selection of a Chief Executive by universal suffrage, in Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I accordance with democratic principles? thank the Minister for answering the urgent question As chairman of the all-party China group, I will be and suspend the House for three minutes to make the writing to the NPC on this issue. Will my hon. Friend necessary arrangements for the next business. confirm whether he has raised this with the acting 2.23 pm Chinese ambassador,and whether Dame Caroline Wilson has raised it with the Chinese MFA in Beijing? Sitting suspended.

Nigel Adams: I thank my hon. Friend for his question BILL PRESENTED and for all the work he does and has done in this area ELECTRICAL SAFETY (ONLINE SALES)BILL over many years. We have spoken directly to the chargé at the Chinese embassy, and our ambassador in Beijing, Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) who has been there only a small number of months, is in Richard Thomson presented a Bill to apply electrical regular contact there as well. My hon. Friend raises the safety regulations to goods advertised for sale on online issue of universal suffrage, and we certainly will not be marketplaces; to require online marketplaces to remove taking any lessons on that from Beijing. We have made electrical products from their websites within 24 hours clear our concerns and urged the Chinese authorities to of them being reported as unsafe; and for connected uphold their commitments to the people of Hong Kong. purposes. That includes respecting their fundamental rights and Bill read the first time; to be read a second time freedoms, and also Hong Kong’shigh degree of autonomy. tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 271). 895 10 MARCH 2021 Pig Husbandry (Farrowing) 896

Pig Husbandry (Farrowing) While confined in farrowing crates, these sensitive and—this is not always understood—intelligent animals Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order are unable to express many of their natural behaviours. No. 23) How many people realise that they actually make a nest? That is their natural instinct. A recent study found 2.27 pm that these sentient beings are intelligent enough even to Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): I beg to use a computer joystick to control a curser on a screen move, to earn a treat. The crates result in the sow being forced That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit the use of to give birth in a tiny space and then nurse their young farrowing crates in pig farming; and for connected purposes. through bars. The space in the crate is so restricted that I am delighted that, because we have these hybrid all the sows can do is stand up and lie down until their proceedings, a number of colleagues appear to be present. piglets are weaned. Confined in these crates, sows bite They may not all be unanimous in support for the Bill, and chew the bars, and scrape at the floor in frustration, but my constituency neighbour, my right hon. Friend only to endure painful wounds and sores. the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois), A range of free farrowing pens which provide more certainly is. space for sows has been developed, including by innovative Pigs happen to be my wife’s favourite animals, and British engineers, scientists and farmers. We often hear she has never suggested that she married one—in case the industry argue that farrowing crates are needed to anyone was thinking that. protect the piglets from being crushed—I am probably It gives me great pleasure to present the Pig Husbandry second-guessing my right hon. Friend’s speech against (Farrowing) Bill. The aim of the Bill is to prohibit the the Bill—yet scientific research shows that in well designed cruel and unnatural use of farrowing crates. Just over and well managed free farrowing pens piglet mortality 50% of sows are placed in these crates a few days before can be as low or even lower than in farrowing crates. giving birth; it is called farrowing. They are kept there Not only that, but they have been shown to improve until the piglets are weaned at three to four weeks of productivity and provide many benefits for sow welfare. age. Sows are, therefore, often kept in these crates for Forty per cent. of the United Kingdom’s sows are nine to 10 weeks a year, and, in some cases, for longer. reared in these systems. Calculations based on figures The crates are so narrow that the sow cannot turn around. from the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board show that piglet mortality has been lower in Almost exactly 30 years ago, on 21 January 1991, outdoor systems than in indoor systems in 19 of the last Sir Richard Body—one of my predecessors representing 20 years. This is a great opportunity to improve the Basildon—introduced a private Member’s Bill that sought welfare of British sows, enhance our country’s reputation to ban the use of sow stalls, which were used to confine for advancing animal welfare and support the ingenuity sows during their pregnancy. A few months later in of British developers. April, the then Ministry of Agriculture adopted his Bill and banned sow stalls from 1999. That led to a European The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Union-wide partial ban that came into effect in 2013. Affairs recently published its agricultural transition plan, which recognises that the future farm subsidies scheme It is with similar intentions that I introduce this Bill. I hope the Government will confirm to me that they will “could relate to improving animal welfare in relation to confinement either adopt the Bill or take steps to bring forward their (e.g. the use of cages and crates)”. own regulations—I have no vanity on this issue; I just That is very much welcome. However, it must be noted want action on it—and that we will have the same end that legislation is needed to make these improvements result: a ban on the use of farrowing crates in England. to pig welfare mandatory. Payments to help farmers In the 1990s, we led the way in developing legislation reach the required standard of animal welfare would, I to enhance the welfare of pigs. That led to substantial am sure, speed the process up considerably. improvements that were copied throughout our continent. The Bill I am presenting today foresees that the use of Yet today, 30 years on, we still permit the use of farrowing farrowing crates would be prohibited from 2027. This is crates for sows. Unfortunately, we now find ourselves ample time to allow farmers using these systems to falling behind nations where laws are either in place or phase them out and take advantage of the Government’s due to come into effect to end the use of farrowing new agricultural support scheme for financial assistance crates altogether or to limit their use to just a few days in replacing crates with free farrowing systems. around farrowing. Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Austria In 2019, the wonderful organisation Compassion in and, most relevant of all in the light of it being a major World Farming led a coalition of United Kingdom pig farming nation, Germany have all enacted such animal welfare charities in securing over 107,000 signatures legislation. on petition No. 243448 calling for Britain to “End the As a patron of the wonderful Conservative Animal Cage Age”. That petition was echoed by a European Welfare Foundation, I must thank Lorraine Platt for citizens’ initiative, which was supported by 170 animal her invaluable work on advancing animal welfare and welfare non-governmental organisations from across animal rights. My goodness, my party has come a long Europe and which secured 1.4 million signatures in way since I was first elected, together with my right hon. support. I praise the work that Compassion in World Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Farming continues to do to promote animal welfare in Leigh), who takes a different view on this subject. How this country, and especially in helping me to deliver we have altered our views on animal welfare issues. The this Bill. foundation’s report details how, despite there being over The Prime Minister stated in this Chamber that 200,000 sows confined in farrowing crates each year, the “there are measures we will be able to implement as a result of scientific evidence is being ignored and a ban on these Brexit—such as banning sow farrowing crates”.—[Official Report, crates will have a positive effect on sow welfare. 30 October 2019; Vol. 667, c. 364-365.] 897 Pig Husbandry (Farrowing)10 MARCH 2021 Pig Husbandry (Farrowing) 898

Wemust not waste the monumental opportunity provided The result was a greatly damaged pig industry.According by Brexit to position Britain as a global leader on to the industry, it was pretty much cut in half. The UK animal welfare. This Bill is a significant step in delivering then imported larger and larger quantities of EU pork on that promise. using the very stalls that were illegal in the UK. It was As one of the driving forces behind, and one of the 14 years before that total ban was loosened. first to implement, a ban on sow stalls across the Progress is constantly being made in the British pig European Union, the United Kingdom should not now sector and, in terms of animal welfare, it is far ahead of be falling behind European Union member states in the most other pig-producing countries in the world. It area of pig welfare. I hope that the Government will should be said that 40% of the national sow herd farrow support this Bill to ensure that it becomes law and to freely outdoors in outdoor pig units. Of course the fully recognise the unnecessary pain and suffering that industry, aware of the problems and of public opinion, sows experience in farrowing crates. I commend the is constantly developing new systems, but it does need measure to the House. time to find solutions that bring down pig mortality. These crates were introduced to save piglets’ lives. They 2.36 pm were not introduced out of cruelty.They were introduced Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): My hon. by farmers who love their animals and are absolutely Friend the Member for Southend West (Sir David Amess) committed to animal welfare.The present system, therefore, and I have served together in the House for nearly is right for animal welfare. It avoids deaths. 38 years. As well as being one of my oldest friends, he is I have spoken with the National Pig Association. It a first-rate constituency MP and he speaks very well for tells me that, if the Bill passes in its present form, it all his constituents in his largely urban seat. In all could result in up to 1 million baby piglets dying each fairness, however, I think that the voice of farmers year. This is foreseeable and preventable. Hon. Friends should also be heard. I represent the constituency of may disagree with that. I am not an expert and they are Gainsborough—600 square miles of north Lincolnshire not experts. I am just repeating what the industry is countryside, with very varied agriculture, including a saying and it is right that such a vital industry should be number of pig farmers. heard in this House. What is absolutely certain, though, As my hon. Friend said, both of us have been is that we do not want unnecessarily to increase the campaigning for Brexit for many years and this is an number of deaths of piglets. opportunity to further animal welfare. I am wholly in With regard to alternatives, there is, of course, a favour of any measures to try to improve animal welfare. shortage of suitable free-draining land. I personally I love animals as much as he does. However, I disagree believe that the best way forward is to continue discussions about the best way to achieve it when it comes to the with the industry. We have to think about stock person issue of piglet welfare, and let me explain why. safety and the mental wellbeing of farm workers. We Agriculture, at this time of Brexit, is in a state of have to look at alternatives and possible trade deals and transition. There are many challenges facing agriculture, equivalence. All these issues are very important. including covid and customs difficulties, but the real I commend my hon. Friend for bringing this Bill reason why this Bill is not appropriate is that alternative forward, but I am afraid that it is not ready to become farrowing systems simply allow too many piglets to die. law yet. Let us work together to protect pigs wisely and I fully understand the problems of existing farrowing not rashly. I oppose this Bill. crates. Nobody denies that. No one likes the idea of not allowing a mother sow to turn around. I speak having Question put (Standing Order No. 23) and agreed to. spoken to the pig industry here, and we must be entirely Ordered, frank that this situation is not ideal, but, unfortunately, That Sir David Amess, , Dr Lisa Cameron, acceptable alternatives simply do not exist at present. , Geraint Davies, Sir , Chris Too many piglets will simply die if this Bill becomes law, Loder,Kerry McCarthy,Andrew Rosindell, Dean Russell, and we know that solving one problem by creating Henry Smith and Theresa Villiers present the Bill. another is generally not wise. That is what this Bill would do. Sir David Amess accordingly presented the Bill. Of course, as my hon. Friend said, we have tried this Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time before. In 1999, a dry sow stalls ban was introduced. tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 272). 899 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 900 Media and Sport £315 million almost every day, which is a phenomenal Estimates Day contribution. We have world leadership in many of the sectors, including games, music—we have 9% of global [3RD ALLOTTED DAY] music sales—and, as I will return to shortly, festivals and live music events. Covid-19 has meant that most of those sectors have been shuttered for almost a year, with SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE 2020-21 several months yet before they are able to reopen under the Government’s road map. The Prime Minister’s road Department for Digital, Culture, map set out dates that can now be the target for entertainers, Media and Sport producers, technical staff and audiences alike to get their shows back on the road, so to speak. [Relevant documents: Third Report of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee, Impact of COVID-19 on The DCMS sectors are estimated to account for over DCMS sectors: First Report, HC 291; Third Special a fifth of the UK economy. Without the growth from Report of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee, those sectors, the UK economy would have been in Impact of Covid-19 on DCMS sectors: Government Response recession for three of the last four years; yet DCMS to Committee’s Third Report of Session 2019–21, HC 885.] spends less than 1% of total Government spending. Motion made, and Question proposed, Although it has some very fine Ministers and officials, it is still seen as somewhat of a Cinderella Department That, for the year ending with 31 March 2021, for expenditure within Westminster. That should not be the case, because by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport: those sectors are crucial to our aspirations for global (1) further resources, not exceeding £2,092,692,000, be authorised Britain. for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1227, (2) further resources, not exceeding £524,913,000, be authorised Approximately one third of our creatives have been for use for capital purposes as so set out, and unable to access any Government support during the (3) a further sum, not exceeding £2,246,268,000, be granted to pandemic, apart from universal credit. It has been difficult Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated for them to meet the rules of the Treasury support Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised schemes due to the fact that they may not have enough by Parliament.—(David Duguid.) evidence of past income to prove what they need. Those excluded are still excluded, and I have to say that many Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): of them are in a very desperate state indeed today. The debate will be led by Julian , but I remind The culture recovery fund, which the Minister will no hon. Members that, immediately after Julian Knight, a doubt refer to, was incredibly welcome, with its £1.57 billion four-minute time limit will be in effect. A countdown for the arts, but that money was less than half what the clock will be visible on the screens of hon. Members sector said that it needed. The second tranche of money participating virtually and a clock will obviously be on is coming to the end of its allocation while thousands of the screens in the Chamber. creative businesses remain unable to operate, whereas the tranche of money announced in December still has 2.43 pm not been fully distributed. There are question marks Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con) [V]: This pandemic has over the pattern of distribution, which my Committee highlighted just how widespread the responsibilities of will raise with the Arts Council on 12 April. There is a the Department are: from our rich coastal communities feeling that perhaps those with the sharpest elbows—those that rely on tourism, to the world-renowned theatres, with the biggest names—have benefited the most. galleries and museums of our cities, our festivals and I am hopeful, though, that the welcome extra £300 million music events. They are all significant drivers not just of of investment into the culture recovery fund that was tourism spending, but of domestic spending. DCMS announced in the Budget will mean, effectively, that also has oversight of the charity sector, which has been some of the harder-to-reach community organisations ravaged by this pandemic. that may not have benefited from the first tranche of Across the DCMS space, this has been the hardest hit cash will be able to benefit in the months ahead. They of any sector in the economy. It was among the first to will help to rebuild our cultural recovery from the close and is likely to be the last to reopen. Covid is ground floor up. It is, however, probably still not enough almost designed to damage the sector because it relies to see our world-leading arts through the pandemic and on the close interaction of people. post-pandemic period. It is therefore vital that the Many DCMS businesses are incredibly complex and, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport gets in the past, have not relied heavily on Government the recovery right, and continues to provide sector-specific support; they have just got on making money and tailored support to those industries, which must be employing millions of people. This means, though, that given the support and certainty to reopen as it becomes the Treasury is perhaps less familiar with the intricacies safe to do so. of their work than with other more regulated businesses There are questions to be asked about the support and industries such as financial services. It also means, that those sectors are getting from DCMS, and how to be frank, that there is less knowledge about how best best it ought to be directed. For many months the to support them as we recover. Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee has been Before the pandemic, Britain’s DCMS sectors were arguing for a number of measures, be it an extension of some of the fastest growing, with the creative industries VAT relief so that companies are in a position to sell growing at three times the rate of the UK economy as a tickets and benefit from it, to the expansion of reinsurance whole. The creative industries alone contributed over schemes to cover live events, live performances and the £115 billion to the UK in 2019. That is equivalent to music festival season. 901 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 902 Media and Sport Media and Sport It was a relief to see in the Budget last week that the trying to get individuals re-involved in the supply chain— Chancellor listened, and that an extension of the VAT there is every chance that COP26 will be like the austerity cut has been announced. Undoubtedly, that will be the games, the Olympic games post the second world war; push needed over the summer for many of our hospitality they will not be the jamboree that the Prime Minister and tourism businesses, which have suffered so greatly, hopes for, because we do not have the wherewithal. We but for cultural events and exhibitions alike that may are losing muscle from these sectors, and we need to not be enough. To benefit from the reduced rate, they replenish it in short order. I therefore urge the Government must be able to sell tickets and, up to this point, events to get a handle on this and to ensure that the pilots go have not been happening. ahead as quickly as possible—a date of May is mentioned For live events truly to survive this season, the reassurance to me as essential—to ensure success at the back end of of a Government-backed insurance scheme is key. It is the year. estimated that a £650 million insurance scheme for live The cultural and creative sectors are one of the UK’s events would allow more than £2 billion of activity to greatest exports, but they do vital work in our communities go ahead. That is thousands of jobs across the country— too. Even among those institutions that will survive the 975 festivals. I know that everyone thinks of them as pandemic, such as the Royal Shakespeare Company, basically a bunch of kids in a muddy field in Glastonbury, there is likely to be a reduction in outreach programmes. but that is an outlier; we are talking about festivals of Similarly, with another significant underspend in the small, medium and large scale in all our constituencies National Citizen Service, poor and minority ethnic across the country. We all know people who appreciate children, already worst affected by the prolonged closure these cultural events—the way they feed into our cultural of schools, will be those worst affected by a lack of bloodstream and their vital importance to our way outreach programmes and access. of life. Social mobility stands to suffer significantly as the While there is any possibility of events being cancelled, arts and performance struggle. In normal times, Britain’s the industry relies on Government-backed insurance. cultural and creative sectors are world-beating, thriving There is market failure; no one in the private sector is growth sectors; without significant support in the recovery, covering covid. The industry cannot survive without a the damage of covid-19 will scar these industries for second summer season in a row. It must be said that the years to come. live events sector, in which we are world leaders, is near Finally, I wish to touch on EU visas. Creatives and vanishing point. I was pleased to see the extension of those in all the parts of the sectors covered by DCMS, the film and TV production restart scheme,giving producers including the games industry, performance, music, theatre the confidence to return to production, yet the same and cultural events, are frankly bemused at the current confidence is key for live events to be able to survive. arrangement—or lack thereof—with our partners in At this juncture, I want to flag to the House an the EU. In effect, the industry has had a no-deal Brexit. important matter that is increasingly coming to my Many Members represent fishing constituencies and we attention. The uncertainty surrounding the live events have spent a lot of time and bandwidth talking about sector and the increasing desperation of consumers to that; however, we did not settle the issue of access for enjoy themselves once again is leading to the potential our creative people, in respect of whom we had an for real consumer detriment, with the sale of tickets for economic advantage over the EU and with the EU prior events that will not take place or have no possibility of to departure. That is a major oversight. taking place at full capacity. We now face the prospect of having to go to each I am increasingly getting reports of individuals who country in turn to negotiate visa arrangements individually. say that they are hosting a festival but have no permission As yet, we do not know precisely what our asks are, which to do so yet, yet they are selling tickets on the promise I find quite incredible considering our huge balance of of live entertainment in the future. Even if they later trade surplus in the creative sectors. We really must have to cancel that festival, there is every chance that ensure that individuals are able to travel as freely as they will still make some money, because many people possible and to take their equipment with them through may not ask for their money back as a refund. I alert the cabotage. After all, the sector is all about people. It is House that, without the surety of an insurance scheme about some of our most creative people—people who and getting everything in black and white, there is an represent Britain on the world stage and make our lives opportunity for potentially less scrupulous individuals better. Although the Government have offered a lot of to make money out of our hopes and ambitions for a support over the past 12 months—I acknowledge that—we great summer. cannot take our eye off the ball now. More work needs That is without even looking into the tremendous to be done and we all need to put our shoulders to the knock-on effects on the local economies of places that wheel. play host to live events. As I referenced earlier,Glastonbury generates over £100 million for the south-west, but 2.56 pm more generally,in all our constituencies, for every £10 spent Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab) [V]: It is a pleasure on a live music ticket, £17 is spent in the local economy. to follow the Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. Essentially, without the creative industries and live events, Member for Solihull (Julian Knight). Although we are there will be no economic recovery from the pandemic. on different political sides, those of us who serve on the The UK is poised to host COP26 later this year. The Committee are in complete agreement on these issues. world will be watching on as we host that great event. It Last week, when we debated the cultural and is key that we get the pilots up and running. The entertainment sectors, I made a few points on which I National Exhibition Centre, one of the largest organisers thought the Government could act in the Budget. The and hosts of events in the country, tells me that without first related to the plight of freelance musicians, artists the pilots—without ways of testing covid-security, access and others who have been excluded from the Chancellor’s into events and the way they are organised, and without criteria for support. I pointed out that in Wales some 903 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 904 Media and Sport Media and Sport [Kevin Brennan] rely on revenue from tickets and events to survive. Through no fault of their own, they have been required funds have been set aside for support, but that what we to close, and the cultural recovery fund, in addition to really needed was cross-UK action from the Chancellor. the funding to support sports and TV and film production, The Chancellor has done the very minimum in his has helped many important bodies to keep going that Budget, by simply recognising that it has been so long otherwise might have closed for good. for some of the excluded—that is, the newer self- However, we now need to focus on the road ahead, employed—that they have now become eligible for the through to the lifting of the covid social contact restrictions self-employment income support scheme. He has done on 21 June and beyond. The coronavirus has challenged nothing to support those excluded by his arbitrary the whole of our society, but it has also exposed further criteria. He has decided that they are to be treated as weaknesses in sectors that in some cases we already second-class citizens. It is deliberate and unjust, and it knew about. The point has been well made about the will not be forgotten by musicians, artists and others need for pandemic insurance for the events industry. who have been snubbed. Events and live performances have already become My second point was on the need to help to restart incredibly important to the music sector, because the the live music sector with, as the Select Committee remuneration that artists get from on-demand streaming Chair said, a Government-backed insurance scheme. services is relatively low, but these events will not take Our Committee wrote to the Chancellor to call for such place unless an insurance scheme can be put in place. a scheme and the response from the Government was a This is not just about events that could be held this classic example of blinkered Treasury thinking. The summer; it needs to be done on an ongoing basis. It insurance market cannot provide the cover needed for could be some time before the industry has any certainty, festivals because of covid uncertainty. The Government because new variants of covid might require further say that they have an irreversible plan for reopening; restrictions on the capacity of audiences and therefore were they to underwrite a scheme, that would show restrict the viability of the event itself. Just as, several confidence in not only live music but their own years ago, the Government partnered with the insurance pronouncements. If their own words turned out to be industry to create Flood Re to minimise the risk of true, they would never have to pay out anything. flood insurance and reduce the costs, we need a similar Other countries have taken similar action, with much scheme to help to make insuring live events viable and lower vaccine roll-out rates, and of course it is being reduce the cost to people putting on those events. done for film and television. For the want of a tent peg, In football, the lack of a strong national governing many festivals will have to be collapsed this summer. body for the sport that is able to ensure fair dealing in That is the Chancellor’s second failure of policy and financial matters has been badly exposed. Many football action. As the Select Committee Chair pointed out, clubs were in great distress before the pandemic struck. there are now opportunities for the scammers and outlaw Clubs in the championship division of the English companies such as Viagogo to take advantage by once football league were routinely spending more than they again ripping off people who want to buy tickets for earned each year on players’ salaries alone, and were events that might never happen and might never exist. running a financially unsustainable model. There has Thirdly, the Chancellor should have announced a been no real recognition of the impact of the covid scheme to ensure that musicians and artists could resume restrictions on professional football. The money within touring in EU countries. I note the launch of the the game has not been enough to solve all the problems, “Carry on Touring” campaign’s website today. On social and the support that has been given is minimal. Many media today I saw the case of someone called Ed Lyon, clubs continue to rack up large debts. At the moment, a a classical musician who has just spent six weeks and lot of the football league is being run on unpaid taxes. It £945 to obtain a work permit for Belgium. Previously, is believed that the amount of unpaid taxes owed to in normal times, he could have just hopped on a train. HMRC by football clubs could be in the hundreds of The Chancellor is utterly complacent about the loss of millions of pounds. We need a proper financial regulator export earnings to UK that this continuing fiasco will for football to ensure that clubs are run on a sustainable bring. Lord Frost is now his Cabinet colleague. Why has basis for the long term, but in the short term we may he not been told to do the job that he so abjectly failed need to look at how some sort of financial assistance to do in December when he delivered a no-deal Brexit can be given to those most in distress. Clubs outside the for artists, musicians and their ancillary support industries? are largely community assets, and they need to be run in a sustainable way. This Budget, despite some investment, did not do nearly enough to save jobs and support growth in the I want to make two other points briefly. The last creative industries—the sectors with the fastest growth 12 months have exposed just how influential disinformation potential. It has left freelance workers out in the cold, it and hate speech on social media can be, particularly in has thrown a summer of music into a muddy field of relation to anti-vaccine campaigns to undermine confidence uncertainty and it has closed the gate on touring for our in the vaccine and spread conspiracy theories about the creative artists and musicians. Far from doing “whatever pandemic. It makes the bringing forward of the online it takes”, it has taken away the opportunity to create. harms Bill this year so important for the Department, and we must also ensure that there are proper resources for Ofcom, as the regulator, to ensure that there can be 3 pm proper auditing and inspection of the way social media (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con) [V]: companies respond to campaigns of disinformation The Government have provided substantial support for and hate speech, and other speech that can cause harm the cultural, sporting and creative sectors since the start through social media networks. We have been talking of the covid pandemic. This has been welcome but also about this for many years and I am glad that the Bill is essential, as many organisations within these sectors coming, but it is also an imperative. 905 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 906 Media and Sport Media and Sport Finally, the pandemic has also had a big impact on The first thing is insurance. It is almost impossible the advertising industry and broadcasting revenues from now to get insurance against the cancellation of a live advertising, just as other media have struggled with revenue event because of covid-19. The Government should from advertising. There is no guarantee that this money step in and either provide a scheme directly or underwrite will bounce back, particularly as audiences are increasingly one if they do want these events to go ahead, because diverting their attention to online services—social media producers simply cannot take the risk of committing to receive news and on-demand platforms to view content. vast sums of money to pre-production and planning. Increasingly, many people spend time not watching Secondly, we need to continue business support not broadcast material at all, but playing games and doing just for one year, but through at least until 2024. That other things online. This potentially undermines the means the Government must make funds available directly public service broadcasting model in this country.I welcome through funding in England and through consequential the fact that we have the PSB review, but we need to funding to the devolved Administrations in Scotland, understand that the long-term impacts of rising production Wales and Northern Ireland. costs for television due to the impact of Netflix and The third thing we need DCMS to do is to be much Amazon Prime and of declining advertising revenues more of a champion for this sector. We have heard because of switching audience attention are fundamentally already how this Department is very much the Cinderella changing the market, and if we have media that— of Government Departments. That has to stop, and we Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): need people who will stand up for the sector and Order. I am afraid we do have to move on. advocate for what is necessary. That applies in particular in relation to the Treasury, which is responsible for most 3.5 pm of the direct wage support. We need to try to get through the tin ear of the Treasury and make sure that Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP) [V]: Madam it responds to the very great gaps in support that Deputy Speaker, first, can I refer you to my entry in the particularly afflict this sector more than others. If we do Register of Members’ Financial Interests? I do not that, then when we come back in a year’s time, we may think that my continuing association with the live still have a sector to be proud of. If we do not, it may be entertainment industry represents any conflict of interest; very much in jeopardy. rather, it gives me an insight into the trauma that this industry has faced during the pandemic. 3.9 pm Madam Deputy Speaker, I am speaking to you from the great city of Edinburgh, whose name is synonymous Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con) [V]: I want to with cultural creativity, and has been since the days of begin by putting on record my thanks to the Department the Scottish enlightenment. In the modern era, the city for its efforts during the pandemic. From my personal has become host to the world’s pre-eminent arts festivals, experience as chair of the all-party parliamentary group and every August more than 2 million people congregate for museums, I know that the Minister for Digital and on the streets of Scotland’s capital to celebrate, participate Culture, my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline and perform—every August until last August. The Dinenage), the Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Edinburgh festivals, and the fringe in particular, are not Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member only the largest platform in the world for Scottish for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston), and, indeed, talent, but the largest platform anywhere in the world the Secretary of State have made themselves readily for English talent, which is a reason by itself for DCMS available to discuss issues and concerns in the sector. I to be extremely concerned about its future. know that the National Museum Directors’ Council has As we debate this matter this week, people are meeting felt able to raise issues and has found the Department to in Edinburgh and beyond—venues and producers are be a listening one. meeting with city and national Government—to see The pandemic has meant that the Department has whether it will be possible for the 2021 festivals to go gone from being one of the Departments with the ahead. They are grappling with a terrible dilemma. smallest budgets in Whitehall to effectively a delivery How on the one hand do we respect, maintain and agency to keep our wonderful and important cultural protect public health in a situation where the virus is institutions afloat. Without the culture recovery fund still transmitting in the community, while at the same and other funds that the Department has allocated, I time trying to stage events that, by their very nature, are fear for the sustainability of our museums and vital about bringing people together and causing human cultural attractions. Clearly, there are issues about when interaction? We do not yet know what is going to museums, in particular, can open, and I urge that they happen in 2021, but we do know that most of the are given the earliest opportunity to do so, as they have activity will be outdoors, and it will be considerably proven that they can be covid secure. However, I welcome smaller and shorter-lasting than before. the extension of the culture recovery fund to September, We must see this not as a return to normal, but as one which will be a lifeline for organisations. step towards a recovery that will take several years. That Financial support does not equal instant recovery. means that we need to press for a commitment from this Restrictions will continue on income-generating activities Government in the medium term—not just for months, for museums, and the lack of international tourism will but for years. It would be churlish not to recognise the affect museums well into 2022 if not into 2023. That great efforts that have been made by the UK and will be the case, as has been mentioned, for all cultural Scottish Governments towards the sector, and that is events. Continued support from the Department will be widely acknowledged, but just because it has been good, needed to avoid closures and job losses. that does not mean it cannot be better, and there are If the Department is looking for additional policy three things that the DCMS really ought to consider ideas to enhance its already impressive levels of support, doing as a matter of priority. I want to put several on record. First, a sunset clause is 907 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 908 Media and Sport Media and Sport [Chris Skidmore] support. That comes on top of redundancies that took place in 2019, when there was a restructuring. It is approaching in April 2022 for the museums and galleries proposing the temporary closure of some of the rooms exhibition tax relief, which has been a huge enabler for and putting an emphasis on paid exhibitions rather the sector. I urge the Department gently to persuade the than free access. There is a view that when these cuts are Treasury to extend the relief permanently. There is also rolled out, they will put the safety of the collection and the need to address underlying issues that were already visitors at risk. in existence before the pandemic began, particularly the What has also angered staff is that, as a result of the need for capital investment in museums that are in need privatisation, it is the lowest-paid staff who are being of repair so that they can maintain their estates. The laid off or having their pay cut, as well as a higher backlog is substantial. I request that the Department proportion of black, Asian and minority ethnic staff. In confirm as soon as possible when museums will receive addition, the National Gallery spending several million money promised in the museums maintenance, estate pounds on extensive refurbishment of the front entrance and development fund, and whether this vital fund will to the building is not going down well with staff or continue into the next three years, as was originally supporters. It has to be remembered that those staff planned before the pandemic began. It is vital that who have been privatised receive only a quarter of what it does. they would have received in redundancy pay if they It is a truism that our past points the direction to our were employed by the gallery. The union will oppose future, and this is equally true when it comes to recovering those cuts and seek to negotiate them—of course it from the pandemic. We cannot afford to lose our unique will—but this emphasises the need for a longer-term and wonderful cultural heritage, which needs our help strategy. now. In return, it will be there for us in the future, both We have all acknowledged in the debate so far that as institutions that can help level up local communities the recovery in this sector will take longer than originally and as something that can assist our educational recovery. expected—it will take the next few years, if not longer—so These are internationally renowned cultural centres that there needs to be a longer-term plan. We urge the I believe we have a duty of care to protect and preserve Secretary of State to bring together all the stakeholders for future generations. in this sector with the trade unions and management of 3.12 pm the galleries, museums and sites to ensure that we discuss what is really needed, plan the investment that is John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab) [V]: needed and its roll-out and distribution, and ensure that Let me thank and congratulate the Chair of the Digital, it goes as rapidly as possible to secure this sector, which Culture, Media and Sport Committee and my hon. does not just bring income to this country but improves Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) the quality of all our lives. for how they have jointly championed the sector on a cross-party basis. They have raised the issues of the lack 3.17 pm of support for freelancers, the touring threat as a result of Brexit, and insurance. I fully support them in that. I (Eddisbury) (Con): It is a pleasure urge the Minister and the Secretary of State to sit down to speak in the debate. To keep close to the subject with Equity, the trade union, to discuss a number of the matter and the departmental responsibilities, with apologies issues, as the union has been developing solutions to them. to culture, I will briefly touch on one digital issue, one I am also a member of the PCS trade union media issue and one sport issue, each pertinent and parliamentary group. PCS represents members working potent to my constituents. in museums, the royal palaces, galleries and historical I turn first to digital and, in particular, broadband sites, and is now yet again faced with large numbers of and mobile coverage. I welcome the Government’sup-front job threats. commitment to the roll-out of gigabit-capable broadband The Government have brought forward financial support, across the country, not least the £5 billion pledged in as we have heard, with £1.5 billion and an additional the Conservative manifesto and set aside to cover at £400 million in the Budget, but as the Chair of the least 85% of the country by 2025. I remind the House Select Committee has said, that is less than half what is that 1 gigabit is 1,000 megabits and—given the 12 megabits needed. It is taking too long to arrive and too long to per second that me, my wife and my four children have distribute, and as a result we heard this week that six been living with over the last year—that is a huge out of 10 museums are fearful for their future. Charlotte difference, not least for many in my rural communities, Higgins, the chief culture writer for , with the burgeoning economic, social and health benefits summed it up exactly right: that have been amplified by covid. “the government has not exactly abandoned the arts so much as ForEddisbury,whichranks599thoutof 650constituencies behaved in a hesitant, inconsistent and basically incompetent for superfast broadband coverage and where 12% of manner easily recognisable from its approach to Covid-19 as residents receive downloads of less than 10 megabits per a whole.” second,thisisanevermorevitalandsignificantinfrastructure What we need now is a longer-term strategy, as a project and one that will be truly transformative. However, number of Members have said, because I am fearful. it is fair to say that there is some nervousness about the Let us take the example of the National Gallery. PCS speedof delivery,borneoutbylookingthroughthespending represents members there, and some of the services review of 2020, the recent Budget and the supplementary have been privatised. Securitas, the private company estimates. Only £1.2 billion of the gigabit programme’s that provides security and front-of-house services at the £5 billion budget is now allocated to subsidise its roll-out National Gallery, has announced a 20% cut in staffing. over the next four years, and there is an £83.6 million Compulsory redundancies are not being ruled out, and reduction for the rural gigabit connectivity in capital this is an institution that has received Government departmental expenditure limits. It is also the case that 909 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 910 Media and Sport Media and Sport the rural gigabit voucher scheme is set to close on 31 I hope that that will be looked upon with some favour March this year, although I understand that a new and considered by the Government. That would be very scheme from April is in the offing; perhaps the Minister helpful. would kindly confirm so in closing the debate. Sadly, I have learned today of the cancellation of yet It is clear to me from previous debates we have had in another highland games. The Inverness highland games the House and discussions with the excellent Digital are not going to be held. It is worth pointing out that Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and these events make a huge contribution to the Scottish Skegness (Matt Warman), that the absolute necessity— economy. One of the downsides of my having become ratcheted up and accelerated by covid—of a complete an MP is that I can no longer get away with masquerading national gigabit infrastructure capability remains a real as a French or German tourist and getting a free glass and pressing priority for both Government and industry. of Glenmorangie whisky in the tent at the Tain highland Any reaffirmation of that by the Minister at the Dispatch gathering, which is there for foreign visitors only. My Box today, together with a renewed commitment to face has become too well known. It does raise this work alongside the telecoms industry to help remove point, which is that 25% of the people attending highland any barriers preventing progress at pace, would be games all over Scotland are from countries outwith the extremely helpful. UK. One can imagine the amount of money they bring Secondly, on media and the BBC licence fee, the BBC into the UK. They make a very important contribution. announced in June 2019 that free licences for all over-75s Changing tack to PAYE freelancers and the excluded, would end from 1 June 2020, but implementation was I welcome—it would be churlish not to—the culture delayed to 1 August last year thanks to the pandemic. recovery fund. That has been a good thing, but the In Eddisbury, over 5,700 households are affected; and reality is, as others have pointed out, that most freelancers nationally one in seven elderly households —or 814 in have not worked at all in the cultural industry since my constituency—have yet to make the necessary March last year, so they have not benefited from the arrangements, meaning that they all remain at risk of fund. As has been mentioned, Equity, the actors’ union, sanctions. Clearly that is an absurd state of affairs, has a view on that. It says: whereby if the new system does not resolve itself, it will “40% of Equity members have not received a penny from the accidentally criminalise a significant number of elderly Self-Employed Income Support Scheme”, people for literally doing nothing. Despite a strong case and that is despite those same people being unable to made by Lord Botham and others for the decriminalisation claim through the job retention scheme. of such circumstances, it is a step that the Government As chair of the gaps in support APPG, I endorse are yet to take. I am sure they will return to it sooner Equity’s proposals that seek to support these people. rather than later. One thing we could do is allow freelancers to make a Finally, I welcome the Government’s strong support claim based on total income—both trading and non-trading for grassroots sport set out in the £300 million sport profits—to eliminate the 50:50 exclusion. Equally, I winter survival package. That has helped keep many endorse the APPG’s proposal to implement an urgent community clubs afloat, but it is also a chance to build stopgap grant of £7,500, or £2,500 for three months, back better. To that end, I know the Minister is aware under the self-employment income support scheme, to and very interested in advanced plans to build and open pay PAYE freelancers who have been excluded from the first ever women’s and girls’ national football centre Government support. of excellence in Winsford to rival St George’s Park and The fact is that, as has already been said, there is a help grow our grassroots sport for the generations to question mark over the future of the Edinburgh festival, come. I hope support for that laudable project will and I have long advocated some sort of Government feature, perhaps not in this estimates day,but in future ones. support for insurance cover. It could be done—insurance cover for terrorism is already done—and I do hope that 3.21 pm the Government will look favourably on that. At the end of the day, the Edinburgh festival fringe brings in Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) £500 million in direct spending and a further £560 million (LD) [V]: Good afternoon, Madam Deputy Speaker. At in indirect spending to the Scottish economy, so what I the outset, as chairman of the gaps in support all-party say—I think we are all singing off the same sheet this parliamentary group, may I say how grateful I am to the afternoon—is that on the happy day that we get through Chairman of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport the pandemic, let us celebrate, but let us also make sure Committee for his support and help over the past weeks that we have a culture industry that can help us celebrate. and months. As others have pointed out, investing in culture will 3.25 pm be part of the key to recovery in all other sectors. It is Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab) [V]: I want to part of the way we live our lives in this country. As the concentrate my remarks on the media industry, which Chairman of the Select Committee pointed out, live was in crisis well before the pandemic hit. The fallout events were among the first to shut down because of the from covid-19 will only worsen the situation, unless pandemic, and they will also sadly be the last to reopen. adequate support and funding is secured. As it stands, Recently I have referred to the particular needs of sector-specific support for journalists and, in particular, our highland games. I and my party are calling for the freelancers is seriously lacking. The enormous power of Government to extend the 5% VAT cut to tickets for live the tech giants has destroyed the long-established news events for up to three years. That is because so far live business model. In response, the National Union of events, such as the highland games, have simply not Journalists has put together a news recovery plan, which been able to profit in any way from the VAT cut, consists of a raft of measures and interventions to because they have not been selling any tickets whatever. ensure a pluralistic, diverse and vibrant news ecosystem. 911 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 912 Media and Sport Media and Sport [Grahame Morris] Of course, DCMS includes the creative industries, which contributed over £115 billion to the UK’s economy It sets out specific proposals for a levy on the tech giants in 2019. That is equivalent to £315 million every day, or based on the huge profits of these companies, which over £13.1 million an hour. As my hon. Friend the Member have increased vastly during the pandemic. That would for Solihull (Julian Knight) told us last week, the UK fund public interest journalism. would have been in recession for each of the last three I strongly encourage the Minister to engage with the years if it had not been for the creative industries, so National Union of Journalists on the proposals in its DCMS and all its sectors are vital, and we need to recovery plan, to ensure a sustainable recovery from the ensure that the Department has all that it needs to help pandemic. The failure to tax excess profits of tech those important industries back on their feet after giants will directly impact professional journalism and the pandemic. result in the loss of uniquely valuable regional current A major part of the creative industries is, of course, affairs programmes such as the BBC’s “Inside Out” the performing arts—in all its guises. It is not only cash programme, broadcast in constituencies such as mine. that this sector brings in; it is also an extraordinarily To make matters worse, the poor funding settlement formidable example of soft power. To put it simply, this arising from the last royal charter review of the BBC is country is a world leader in music, theatre, television, resulting in a loss of 550 jobs from BBC News. The film and fashion. We promote the UK across the globe; BBC is the heart of the creative economy, and supports we promote British values and sell British goods off the employment in the wider sector. Indeed, every £1 spent back of our cultural offer. We ignore it at our peril. by the BBC generates an additional £2 in the wider economy. We are world leaders in sport. Cricket, football, In addition, the impact of the Government’s failure yachting—all these and many more reach every corner to honour their manifesto commitment to protect free of the world, and they need support. As I said in the TV licences for the over-75s has not only had a direct recent debate on the cultural and economic sectors, impact on the lives of tens of thousands of elderly and the creative industries are facing total disaster during vulnerable people, but has had serious consequences for the pandemic and will need that support. That is the BBC budgets. The pandemic has further exposed the challenge that DCMS now faces. To elucidate this point precarious nature of freelance work and the relative further,last year Oxford Economics predicted a £77 billion lack of protection for freelance journalists. Once again, turnover loss over the course of 2020 compared to I draw the Minister’s attention to the NUJ’s freelance 2019; that is minus 31%. Moreover, the industries are charter, which sets out 10 specific proposals to secure a projecting a drop in employment of 122,000, despite the fair deal for freelancers. These include trade union job retention scheme, and a further 287,000 job losses collective bargaining to improve terms and conditions among self-employed workers compared to 2019 levels. for freelance journalists and equalising rights with full-time This is potentially catastrophic, not only for the country employees, including sick pay, maternity pay, paternity as a whole, but for each and every one of those individuals and parental leave, unemployment benefits, and full losing a job. Although I have no doubt that the access to benefits and social securities. Department’s budget has been set in a way that reflects In conclusion, I urge Ministers to work constructively the challenge, I hope that the Ministers and the Chancellor with the National Union of Journalists to ensure that will stand ready to provide further finance if it is needed. those who are currently excluded have access to the But it is not all about finance; it is about underwriting support they need. I also echo the comments of other insurance to give confidence to producers and organisers. right hon. and hon. Members by praising and thanking That has been spoken about a good deal today, and it is the Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. Member terribly important. It is also about freedom of movement for Solihull (Julian Knight), and his colleague, my hon. for musicians, actors and all their kit. There are easy Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), wins here, and not necessarily with any financial strings who have been extremely helpful in their listening to the attached. The Government should grasp this opportunity concerns of Members, and proffering advice and making to demonstrate their serious support for the sector. representations to Ministers. As chair of the all-party parliamentary group for theatre and vice-chair of the Royal Theatrical Fund, I 3.29 pm know how hard this particular part of our cultural offer Giles Watling (Clacton) (Con) [V]: This debate is very has been hit and how many are suffering at the moment, important, because the Department for Digital, Culture, so let us support it and put it back where it belongs: Media and Sport is going to play a crucial and central leading the world and promoting the UK. Although I role in our recovery from the pandemic. am happy to support these estimates, this funding must Historically, the core funding for DCMS is humble be a floor, not a ceiling, when it comes to helping the compared to that for many other Departments. According creative industries and the other DCMS sectors to to my very rough calculations, for every £1 that DCMS recover, which will help the UK recover. got for core funding in 2020-21, the Department of Health and Social Care received £64, and that is quite 3.33 pm right. The same budget for health grows by some £8 billion a year, while DCMS only gets a £100 million annual Steve McCabe (, Selly Oak) (Lab) [V]: It uplift, and that is also quite right. We are all acutely is time to think about how our sports and creative aware of the importance of a robust and well-funded industries can help our post-pandemic recovery. Like NHS, especially at a time like this, but we must remember other areas, the west midlands has been hammered by where that money comes from, and DCMS is one of the the pandemic. Our theatres, entertainment complexes biggest economic contributors. A well-funded NHS and hospitality venues are on the verge of collapse. But would be an impossibility without those contributions. Birmingham and west midlands residents are resilient 913 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 914 Media and Sport Media and Sport people. That is why we are busy preparing for accounting for close to a tenth of the economy and jobs the Commonwealth games, hosting more than 70 teams and being an important driver of export earnings. It is from all around the Commonwealth, with a potential also one of the sectors that has been hit hardest by £1 billion boost to the local economy. covid. I welcome all the support that has been set out by We are also developing the creative content hub at the others, but now is the time to think boldly about the Bond in Birmingham to enhance our film production future and how we build back better. facilities and digital games industry. But as many as We have been gifted a beautiful country, incredible 70% of the people who work in the creative industries cultural assets, and of course the English language, but are freelancers—the very people the Chancellor has we need to do more with them. There are multiple consistently ignored throughout this crisis. The west aspects to that work. There is a long tradition of building midlands’ creative sector is braced for the loss of over too much capacity at the top of the cycle and too little 50,000 jobs in the aftermath of covid, so we will need at the bottom. I would love to hear an update from the more assistance. Government on plans for 130,000 more hotel rooms, as It is not enough to be told that the culture recovery well as the plans for aviation capacity as markets recover. fund has been a success. Of course I welcome it, but I would love to hear a national yield management plan there is little point in maintaining buildings if we lose that brings together leisure travel and travel for education the people who work in them. Ministers have to listen. purposes, business conferences and events, getting more They have to consider backing an insurance scheme to from our cultural assets, extending the season and protect live music events, as others have said. They have building shoulder periods. to consider urgent action to address the barriers to Secondly, on skills and productivity, I very much creative workers travelling to Europe.Weneed opportunities welcome the focus in the sector deal on productivity for young people to break into the sector. How about and in particular the development of two T-levels— apprenticeships in the creative industries and Government- that central reform of technical and vocational supported scholarships for those from disadvantaged education—in catering and in cultural, heritage and backgrounds and those who are leaving care? visitor attractions. I welcome the funding the Arts Council and the But today I want to talk mostly about marketing. I Heritage Lottery Fund have allocated to support the wider was so pleased to hear of the independent destination cultural festival that will accompany the Commonwealth management organisation review. Many DMOs have games. Birmingham Council is allocating £2 million to been very hard hit by the pandemic, and those immediate be shared across the city, so that ordinary Brummies problems must be addressed in this review, but I hope it can be part of the event. Would it not be a good idea if goes much further. DMOs are, in the best cases, the Government were to build on such initiatives by co-operating. They are also generally overlapping and establishing a sports legacy fund, to ensure that more sometimes actually competing with one another. We young people are able to enjoy healthy sporting activities? need to streamline the DMO network and the interaction With concern rising about mental health and an epidemic of all parts of the public sector that have a role in of knife crime, there has never been a better time to promoting and facilitating tourism. involve our youth in sport and cultural pursuits, but we I very much welcome the success of the GREAT are moving in the wrong direction. As the YMCA campaign, which has given a consistent message that we reports, budgets have suffered a cumulative cut of 60%, project across the world, but there is an issue about the and 763 youth centres have closed. What has happened volume of marketing. In a recent Select Committee to the Government’s promise of a £500 million youth meeting, we heard from VisitBritain that Australia spends investment fund? more in China than we do internationally. We are I hope we will see more support for initiatives such as outspent massively in key volume markets and we are community radio. Hope Radio, based in my constituency, not represented at all in some important developing is a not-for-profit organisation set up to help to reach markets. As we start to come out of this pandemic, the vulnerable and isolated. It gives out valuable and source markets are going to be more competitive than useful local information, and tackles some of the vaccine ever. The term “investment” gets a bit over-used these myths. I should point that that one in five people in the days, but this really is about investment, with tangible, west midlands have no access to the internet, so community bankable and quite speedy returns to create jobs and radio is vital. I hope the Government will continue to support building back better. I therefore urge the support FM licences for the station and perhaps give it Government to think further and think bigger about a bit of funding. how they can invest in the growth of this powerhouse sector. 3.37 pm (East Hampshire) (Con) [V]: There are 3.41 pm many important aspects to cover in this debate, including (Winchester) (Con): I want to talk about sport, the creative and performing arts, events, heritage the festival industry. The risks to events taking place and more, as the Chair of the Select Committee, my this year revolve around uncertainty, even with the road hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight), map, a lack of working capital, and the ongoing absence said, but in the four minutes I have available, I will talk of—much mentioned this afternoon—the insurance about one: tourism. solution. Why does this matter? Well, it is a massive, Tourism is very important for my constituency, two successful, vibrant industry. There are an estimated thirds of which lies within the South Downs national 975 festivals in the UK each year. The sector generates park and which contains important heritage sites including £1.75 billion for the UK economy every year and supports Jane Austen’s house, the Watercress line and Gilbert some 85,000 jobs. According to UK Music, over 5 million White’s house, but it matters to all of us nationally, people—our constituents—attended a festival in 2019, 915 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 916 Media and Sport Media and Sport [Steve Brine] forward to this, Madam Deputy Speaker—see the return of Crouchfest. To borrow a phrase, that really would be including me: Boomtown in my own constituency. As back stronger. important as all the figures are, though, festivals are just good fun—remember when that was allowed? 3.45 pm So the Government’s road map was very welcome to our festival sector. As soon as we nearly had a vaccine, Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con) [V]: I am the industry was calling for a clear timeline outlining delighted to take part in this debate and to highlight the “no earlier than” dates, and step 4 clearly gives that to importance of the Department for Digital, Culture, us. Tobe clear,festivals do not work with social distancing; Media and Sport investments in Stoke-on-Trent Central, it is just not possible. There is also the risk that they can supporting local organisations as we move to the covid-19 safely go ahead this summer but the sector is not given recovery phase. As many colleagues want to speak in enough time to prepare. The planning cycle is a critical this debate, I will keep my comments brief. factor. Festivals need an average lead time of six to The culture recovery fund has already provided a eight months. The majority will make a call on their lifeline for many local organisations and I will mention summer events in the first three months of this year, just a few. , a small grassroots music so right now is the moment. We have seen some take venue, benefited from a £240,000 grant to keep it afloat. the plunge, such as Reading, Leeds and Boomtown, Such venues are the R&D arm of the music industry, and others such as Glastonbury—with the heaviest of giving those at the beginning of their careers the chance hearts, and breaking mine—call theirs off for a second to be heard. From Coldplay to Kasabian, this Stoke year. venue has featured future stars. Let me touch on lack of working capital. Festivals The Clay Foundation delivers the British Ceramics clearly need the working capital to stage their event. It is Biennial festival and provides supported workshops true that some festival businesses have been helped by across the city in care homes and schools. During the excellent culture recovery fund, with very high lockdown it supplied packs of clay and tools to enable stabilisation figures among recipients meaning that they the young and the elderly to engage in creative activities will have sufficient funds to stage their events this year if which helped their wellbeing. they are allowed, but it is equally true, as shown by VAST Services received funding to look after the surveys among members of the Association of Independent Museum on behalf of the family trust. This Festivals, that 100% of those who applied to the fund gave it the opportunity to develop digital tools, including and were not offered a grant do not have sufficient a virtual tour on its website, and look at future income funds to stage their events. I say to the Minister that for generation for this valued local heritage asset. round 2 of the CRF—I understand that we expect B-arts used the funding to sustain 80 freelance artists, grants to be announced this month—we need the eligibility commissioning work to keep people’s spirits up, sharing of festivals to be strongly recognised again and we need lived experience as well as delivering kits and worksheets to help those who missed out in round 1. For many to families, in addition to food from its waste food café festivals without sufficient audience loyalty and brand during lockdown. equity to return beyond this year, if that happens, mothballing the event companies that they rely on for The Museum Trust had no income during lock- another year effectively means shutting down their down and the £20,000 DCMS grant brought the charity operations, with a very real risk that they will not return. time to reflect while looking after the wellbeing of staff, volunteers and trustees. It looked at its audience and A Government-backed insurance scheme is essential user markets, and used a kickstart grant to develop its to the festival industry. I appreciate that insurance alone website and start digitising artefacts. Online sales have is not the sole barrier to kick-starting festivals, but provided new income and a deal with Portmeirion saw organisers cannot enter into the usual planning for 2021 the Spode pattern produced on bone china, in the home without an insurance solution. It is the key that unlocks of bone china, for the first time in many years. this process. It is unfortunate that we have not yet managed to persuade the Government of the case for Few cities are named after what they do. The this. It is almost too late now for 2021, but I would like are world leaders in ceramics and ceramic manufacturing, the Minister to make reference to the issue when he and Stoke-on-Trent has been at the heart of research winds up. and innovation for almost 300 years. The Spode site in my constituency is significant not as an historical relic, This matters for all the reasons that I have touched but as the focus for many creative businesses, charities, on, but it matters right now when events, short of researchers, artists and innovators. The Spode works is insurance, short of certainty and short of cash flow, are the physical manifestation of what Stoke-on-Trent means: selling tickets to young people desperate for something celebrating where we came from, talking about now and to look forward to. We cannot have events—sometimes always looking forward; a place where we can stand on without a licence in place or even having contacted the the past to get a better view of the future, and where safety advisory group of the respective local authority— arts and science are equally valued. selling tickets, often at £100-plus, on the promise of hope alone. That will do the vast majority of the The common theme of these DCMS-funded projects industry no favours whatever, but in many ways it is a is future-proofing our city by encouraging innovation symptom of the situation that we are in. and supporting creativity. Future funding will help to attract private investment and encourage talent and Let us stick to the road map. Let us focus on the data new opportunities, hopefully backed by levelling-up and reward vaccine success with some fun this summer. funding. It will enable the rebirth of this major symbol With a fair wind, we may even—I know you look of Stoke-on-Trent’s past as a beacon for its future. 917 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 918 Media and Sport Media and Sport 3.49 pm 3.52 pm David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) James Daly (Bury North) (Con) [V]: The spending of (Con) [V]: I commence my remarks by praising the DCMS has provided vital financial support to cultural work that the BBC has done to support families and and sporting facilities throughout the pandemic, and ensure that children have access to good-quality, the Chancellor’srecent Budget announcements will continue advertising-free content during covid. All Members who to support the sector in recovery and offer new opportunities are parents of young children will have appreciated the and hope to communities such as mine in Bury, value of that, and many of us will have heard from our Ramsbottom and Tottington. The Met theatre, the East constituents that, at a time when access to good-quality Lancs railway and the Lancashire Fusiliers museum learning, either online or through the television, radio have all received Government support, allowing them and other forms of media, has sometimes been hard to to continue their fantastic work, improving the social come by, the BBC has done an absolutely fantastic job. and economic life of Bury, Ramsbottom and Tottington. At a time when there is often controversy about the The announcement of a further £300 million to extend BBC’s political news coverage, we need to recognise that the culture recovery fund is most welcome and will benefit; a vast part of the corporation’swork is enormously allow cultural assets to be at the centre of the recovery valuable in supporting children and families, and it will from covid-19. This is the crucial point: sport, culture be incredibly important not just during lockdown and and heritage must be at the centre of our social and covid but as we move towards education catch-up. economic recovery. I speak as chair of the northern The second big positive is the investment that has culture all-party group, and every city and town in my ensured that local arts can continue to thrive. I have the region has its own unique cultural offer. Totake advantage privilege of representing Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner, of that, we need further national, regional and local an outer London constituency, which, as well as having investment. access to the west end—a national asset—has a number I was therefore delighted with the Chancellor’s of thriving local arts centres, including Harrow Arts announcement of the £150 million community ownership Centre, which benefited from direct funding, and the fund. In Ramsbottom, the Co-op theatre has recently theatre and theatre and been listed by the Secretary of State. Built in the 1870s, hall, which have benefited from the support of the local it is one of only five in the country and still has its authority. The ability of these local arts venues not only original interior fittings. That heritage asset has sat to nurture talent, to be part of what is a great British dormant for decades, but now, hopefully, through the economic success story, but to give people access to efforts of local campaigners, a potential source of funding culture and the arts on their doorstep is incredibly could safeguard the theatre for everyone. This Government important. The support that has been put in place by investment would add a further layer to the deep cultural the Minister and the Department has been enormously offer within Ramsbottom, which could help transform valued by constituents. As we look towards recovery the town as we come out of restrictions, creating jobs, and opening up again, many artistes and organisations bringing visitors and investment to the area and improving are delighted at the prospect of throwing their doors life chances and opportunities. I hope that this type of open again, putting on shows and exhibitions that have national funding model in important community assets had to be deferred, and welcoming my constituents will be at the heart of DCMS funding going forward. once more. The DCMS should also take every opportunity to I will finish with a comment about youth work. The invest and harness the power of sport, both at grassroots Department currently holds responsibility for the youth and professional levels, so I welcome the sports recovery investment fund. Having spent many of my years as the package announced in the Budget. The people of Bury, councillor responsible for children and young people in through no fault of their own, lost their professional the London borough of Hillingdon, which serves about football club, and its historic home Gigg Lane is currently two thirds of my constituency, I am very aware of the dormant. Gigg Lane has, for more than 100 years, enrichment of young people’s lives that has been brought provided jobs, supported economic activity in the town about by youth centres, the youth workers that local and been central to Bury’s identity, and its sporting and authorities employ,and those who come from organisations cultural offer. such as churches, charities and the uniformed sector, including the Scouts and the Guides. This creates amazing I am delighted that the Government have announced, opportunities for young people that contribute to their through the community ownership fund, a means by later employability and enrich their lives and raise aspiration which the site can be potentially bought for everyone in and opportunity. When we talk about levelling up, Bury. DCMS spending going forward must continue to those things will be incredibly important. support cultural assets, but be innovative in providing As we look forward in this estimates day debate, I moneys for projects that unite communities. It should encourage the Minister to consider how we will ensure never be underestimated how central to the cultural, that those resources are properly applied. I ask that we social and economic recovery of my town a thriving give appropriate consideration to how we use the resources community-owned Gigg Lane would be. This would be contained in that fund to support excellent frontline the definition of building back better and levelling up. youth work, to enable local authorities to do the job DCMS has provided funding to enable the UK and that they do extremely well in supporting and engaging Ireland to bid for the 2030 World cup. If successful, I young people, and that we make sure that those resources truly hope that Gigg Lane will be in a position to host a are deployed in the light of local circumstances, so that match. What a cultural and sporting success story that those who know their communities best can ensure that would be both nationally and locally, and it would be they add the maximum value to the lives of young testament to the moneys that this Government are people in our areas. investing now in the cultural and sporting sectors. 919 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 920 Media and Sport Media and Sport 3.56 pm to see firm action to deal with some of the many difficulties we have had with broadband connectivity in Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con) [V]: It is a privilege rural Britain, particularly in rural West Dorset. The to speak in today’s debate, and I thank the Government average download speed in West Dorset is 42.5 megabits for the support that they continue to give to our cultural per second, which is a little under half of the UK and entertainment sector. average. I could quote many statistics like that, but I I am incredibly proud of Darlington’s amazing cultural know full well that the Minister and his colleagues have sector and my constituents who work in it. From our heard from me frequently about this issue, in order that rich railway heritage to our vibrant artistic community, we make more progress. We are dealing with a legacy of we have it all. Indeed, we look forward to showing this many larger businesses in this sector taking the commercial to the team at Her Majesty’s Treasury. opportunity of focusing on the highest yielding areas Since Locomotion No. 1 first travelled across Skerne and therefore focusing on urban areas. In many cases, Bridge in 1825, an event commemorated on our nation’s that has meant a loss to those living in not just rural £5 note, Darlington has been a busy, lively town that is areas, but very rural areas, who are often in that 1%, recognised for its unique and distinctive cultural heritage. 2% or 3% of the population who really struggle to get Today, we are home to a vibrant community of artistic decent broadband. excellence at sites such as the Forum Music Centre and I am working with and supporting Dorset Council the Hippodrome, which were awarded £106,000 and very much with its broadband fibre spine programme. £1,000,000 respectively through the culture recovery We need £6.5 million to deliver that. Dorset Council fund. Darlington is also a safe home for culture, and, in works hard and saves hard, which is why we are in a 2020, was the first in the north-east to be awarded a position locally in Dorset to fund two thirds of that. purple flag, an international accreditation for excellence Today, I am making a plea to the Minister and his within the night-time economy—an accreditation that colleagues: please help us find the remaining third. It is was renewed for 2021. 0.05% of that £5 billion budget. It is £2.54 million, which Sadly, Darlington’s cultural sector has been badly we in Dorset would hugely appreciate, because that will affected, with venues unable to operate for much of the give us the turbocharge we need to get our local businesses past year, which is why I welcome the phenomenal on track, and make sure that we in rural Dorset recover support that has been provided by the DCMS to help properly and fully from coronavirus, which is what we protect Darlington’s cultural sector. need. I very much encourage the Minister to do this. Throughout the pandemic, culture venues have been I stand ready, with my colleagues in rural Dorset, to able to access unprecedented support through the support him in whatever way we can. A few months coronavirus job retention scheme, self-employment income ago, I described his colleague, the Under-Secretary of support scheme, Government-guaranteed business loans, State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. lockdown grants and discretionary grants. These schemes Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt have supported businesses and protected thousands of Warman), as the knight in shining armour that we are jobs. They are in addition to the Government’s tailored waiting for in Dorset. I very much hope that today’s support package that made £1.57 billion available through Minister will be able to join the cavalry and make sure the culture recovery fund—the single largest support that we get that £2.5 million to sort out Dorset fibre package for the arts in our country’s history, accessed broadband. by 3,000 organisations and directly supporting 75,000 jobs. 4.2 pm Last week, the Chancellor increased the support available to the culture and arts, making a further £700 million Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con) [V]: This available to combat the ongoing effects of coronavirus estimates day debate is looking at the spending of the and to support our incredible arts, cultural and sporting Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, sector as they reopen over the coming months. This which is often referred to as the “Ministry for Fun”. For means that the departmental expenditure limit for 2020-21 people who make their living in these sectors, creating that we are debating today stands at a phenomenal fun is a very serious business. Annually, the sector £4.8 billion, which I and indeed the cultural sector of accounts for about £115 billion of revenue. The creative Darlington warmly welcome. I am proud to be supporting industries encompass the best and brightest of UK the Government today. businesses, and these figures paint a very vibrant picture of creativity and talent in our country. This is a powerful Perhaps the greatest support that we can now give the export sector; the UK is highly regarded around the cultural sector is a clear reassurance that the recently world and these businesses will play a key role in lifting announced road map is irreversible and that, from later the mood of the nation to aid the recovery. this month, we can begin to unlock, I look forward to seeing Darlington’scultural sector reopen and our theatres, Speaking from my experience as the chair of the museums and cinemas begin to fill up once again. all-party group on media, I am particularly grateful to the Secretary of State, the Minister for Media and Data, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon 3.59 pm (Mr Whittingdale), and the Under-Secretary of State for Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con): It is a pleasure Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the to speak in this debate, Madam Deputy Speaker, and Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston), I would like to thank the Minister and his colleagues who is in his place, for willingly engaging and responding very much for all the hard work they have been putting when I have raised issues with them over the past in so far. 12 months. It is brilliant news that the Government have allocated I wish to touch on digital, on media and on sport, £5 billion to the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and on how they impact my constituency. Let me start and Sport. I am particularly pleased that we will be able by welcoming the £16 million loan that has been provided 921 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 922 Media and Sport Media and Sport to support rugby league, as 2021 is a particularly important There are some wonderful local charities that perform year for the sport. This autumn, the UK will be hosting a vital service for our communities that deserve financial the rugby league world cup and towns such as Warrington support, such as Age UK and the Music Man project in will play host to international teams, giving fans a my constituency. I am, however, disappointed that the chance to back their national team. The financial benefits Chancellor’s Budget did not offer specific assistance to that the tournament will bring to the north will trickle the sector, and I encourage the Department, which into the wider community, helping hotels, restaurants works closely with the Charity Commission, to resolve and taxi firms in Warrington to recover. They are that. I thank the Minister for the support that he gave already starting to take bookings. I urge the Minister to recently to the Showmen’sGuild and fairgrounds generally. continue to engage with the sport’s governing body. I urge him to keep that up. Also, could he support our There is no doubt that the Government have provided wonderful zoos and all the people involved in animal substantial support to TV production to allow the welfare and rescue generally? sector to restart making the TV shows that we all love I raised the issue of support for the events and to watch. The Government have also stepped in to creative industries only last week, but it is becoming support commercial radio and the newspaper sector increasingly relevant since the Chancellor’s Budget. There with enhanced advertising campaigns, but there are are still individuals, businesses, limited company directors other commercial sectors, particularly struggling cinemas and freelancers who are excluded and need financial for example. They will be some of the last businesses to support. Businesses in Southend look forward to welcoming reopen, and they have also lost the revenues from the tourists back to our town this summer. I very much pre-film ads. welcome the decision to extend the VAT cut for the In the ad creative production sector, the writers, tourism and hospitality sector, and I hope that the producers and artists who appear in commercials have Government will continue to support those businesses all been affected. I heard today from the Advertising as they prepare to reopen. Association that different sectors from the advertising Working from home has really highlighted to me how world have had a 20% to 40% fall in their annual poor the internet is in my constituency. In our manifesto, turnover. Local advertising revenues have been particularly we pledged for full-fibre and gigabit-capable broadband badly hit, given the nature of that type of advertising for every home and business across the United Kingdom and the fundamental change that is happening in the by 2025, so when will that come to Southend West? sector. After the dreadful year that we had, the nation needs I will add a word of caution on the future impact of cheering up, and the best way that we can do that is to proposed legislation on products in the high in fat, salt organise the city status competition and make Southend and sugar sector, and the pace of implementation of a city, so can we please get on with the announcement? I legislation. I encourage Ministers to engage more with am very pleased that the Government are providing a the sector, because the opportunity to use the media to further £300 million for the culture recovery fund. There change behaviour through positive campaigns is a better are a number of fantastic cultural organisations in way of tackling obesity than just implementing a ban Southend, which I hope will benefit from this extension. on advertising, which ultimately producers will seek to Oh dear. Southend United are not having a brilliant find a way round. time at the moment; we languish at 23rd in the league, Better digital connectivity is fundamental for our although—fingers crossed—I hope we beat Stevenage economic growth and levelling up. I have been working at the weekend. I hope that Southend West gets its fair with local residents and Openreach to develop a community share of the £300 million recovery package for professional fibre partnership, which will bring better broadband to sport and £25 million for grassroots football. I was one around 100 homes in Higher Walton. I am keen to get of the original pioneers of the national lottery, but we new fibre cables in the ground in the coming weeks, so are always in the bottom 10 or 20, and last year we will the Minister confirm that the current scheme, which received only £59,000. That is ridiculous.Some £200 million is due to finish at the end of March and which supports was awarded; we are not getting our fair share in rural roll-out of fibre broadband, will be replaced so Southend West. The BBC continues to pay its stars—I that the efforts can continue, because I have more use the term loosely—vast sums of money at a time projects to complete? when so many of my constituents are struggling with pay freezes or having lost their jobs. That is unacceptable. It is businesses in the digital, culture, media and sport I urge the Department to bear that in mind when it sector that will help to drive our post-pandemic recovery. comes to the next charter renewal. I encourage the Chancellor and the Secretary of State to continue to give the sector the serious support that it Finally, Her Majesty the Queen is having a tough needs and deserves. time at the moment. She has served her country so well for 70 years, and a statue would be a fitting tribute to our great monarch. Her grace, compassion and dedication 4.6 pm to duty during her reign has made this country the envy of the world. Thank goodness we have a monarch Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): On 26 March, rather than a president. with my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Mrs Elphicke) and the family, I will launch the campaign for a memorial 4.11 pm to commemorate the wonderful Dame together with Sir Paul McCartney, Katherine Jenkins and Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con) [V]: Sir Tim Rice. Funding will be by public subscription It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. The work of and donations, and it is planned that the memorial will DCMS is wide-ranging, and I am conscious of the be sited on the white cliffs of Dover. considerable support that it has given by way of covid 923 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 924 Media and Sport Media and Sport [Sir Robert Neill] 10 miles of London. Rolling out broadband has to be made a reality right across the country, including the recovery funding—both its first tranche and the money suburbs. announced in the Budget—to a wide range of sectors. I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. 4.15 pm I want to start by talking about the theatre and John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP) performing arts sector—not for the first time, and I [V]: I thank the hon. Member for Solihull (Julian Knight) make no apology for that. Not only do they contribute for securing the debate and Members across the House so much to our economy, but they also, of course, for their contributions so far. How we have all missed enrich our lives and entertain as well as broaden and culture and sport, which are the very heartbeat of our inform. The work that has been done is significant, and national life and which have been put on ice by this grim I payparticular tribute to the money—some £435,500—that pandemic. I know that other Members ache, like me, to was made available to the Churchill theatre in my hear the roar of a crowd at a gig, to sit lost in music at a constituency, which has been valuable in keeping that concert, to explore again their favourite museums and much-loved and long-established institution going. galleries and, of course, to celebrate Scotland’s victory on 18 June over England in the Euros group stage. I am also conscious of the need for small-scale grants, Cheering alone will not heal the deep wounds inflicted and I pay tribute as well to Bromley Little theatre, on the sector by both covid and Brexit. The damage which has just received a grant from the Theatres Trust that has been done is deep. Research by Oxford Economics to improve its ventilation so that it is able to open, in estimates that covid has led to a £74 billion revenue due course, in covid-compliant fashion. It is a community drop in this sector alone, and the Creative Industries theatre run by volunteers, and it is amazing the way its Federation has warned that one fifth of the creative members have kept online content, recorded in a socially sector—that is more than 400,000 people—either have distant fashion, up on its website to keep its enthusiastic lost or are in immediate danger of losing their jobs. Few audiences engaged with live theatre and the magic and enter the arts because they want to be rich. They do it value that that brings us. They deserve not only our for love, but even for those who had solid careers before thanks and praise but our practical support. the pandemic, there have been sleepless nights wondering But of course there are still issues that need to be how the next bill will be paid. addressed. I have a significant number of constituents The Department’s brief is broad, but as a member of who work in the performing arts and related sectors, be the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee, I they actors in the west end, sound technicians, set have heard the evidence in recent months, and some key designers or theatre producers. As the Minister knows, themes have emerged. Festivals—one of the UK’s most many of them are freelancers—they are overwhelmingly thriving sectors—are in crisis. Until the pandemic, festivals self-employed—and, frankly, many have fallen through brought over £1 billion into our economy. They not gaps in the support that is available. only showcase domestic talent and make these islands a I will cite just one example—a constituent of mine who cultural beacon in the summer, but they employ half a has been a successful freelance theatre production manager million people. Scotland, as my hon. Friend the Member for 30 years. Because his salary was over £50,000 on a for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard) so eloquently self-employed basis, he has not been getting any support, highlighted, plays host to the largest arts festival in the whereas if he were salaried, he would be in a very world: the Edinburgh festival. different and more advantageous position. He does not However,when the industry begged the UK Government have the option of being salaried; that is not the nature to underwrite the insurance needed to plan gigs, concerts of the work that people in the creative sector do. I am and festivals, it was denied. That was a key factor in the not convinced that the Treasury understands that. The cancellation of Glastonbury festival, among others. consequence is that this dedicated and successful Some festivals are going ahead this summer, but many professional has earned some £4,000 in the last year. It festivals that could have gone ahead are not doing so. is not possible to expect people to carry on with their They could not take the risk without insurance, and overheads in that situation, so I hope that we will look they could not get insurance because of the pandemic. again at the way that this is dealt with. They needed Government intervention, but the UK I hope, too, that we can look at greater transparency Government turned their back. in the way in which grants are awarded. They are very Artists and musicians do not ask for much from welcome, but I have an example of a business in my Government, but they do expect that the Government constituency that was rejected on diversity and cultural will not work actively against them. Many will now be significance grounds by a panel, but no reasoning was forced to change career, causing irreparable damage to given for the panel’s decision, and there is no means of the sector. That applies in particular to freelancers, who appeal. One then comes across other businesses of have slipped through the net, unable to fit the criteria exactly the same kind that have been successful. If we for support. Equity, the actors’ union, has found that are going to continue with the support—and I very 40% of its members have received no help of any kind much welcome the fact that we are—it is all the more from the self-employment income support scheme. important that there is proper transparency. The cultural sector has suffered the harshest economic Finally, I am using my internet connection to speak blow from this pandemic, second only to those working from Chislehurst, but the reality is that many parts in the hospitality and tourism sectors. Luckily for those of my constituency have a remarkably poor internet living in Scotland, the Scottish Government at Holyrood connection. Only 4.7% of my constituency has gigabit have been able to pledge £30 million to mitigate the availability—the London average is 21%—but it is within financial challenges for those who are unable to access 925 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 926 Media and Sport Media and Sport the UK Government’s self-employment income support When she appeared before the DCMS Committee, I scheme, and in the current financial year they have asked the Minister for Digital and Culture whether she committed to spending £177 million on investing in a would do her utmost to support Scotland’s continued diverse culture sector in Scotland—small comfort for participation in Erasmus and deliver for Scotland what those living in England, I know. the Dáil in Ireland has delivered for Northern Ireland. Her answer? She said, “I really cannot comment”. If we For many in the industry, there lies another long-term are to be dragged out of these cross-border cultural threat. I know that my friends on the Labour Benches initiatives against our will, the very least that the UK are hesitant when it comes to talking about Brexit these Government can do is to provide adequate alternatives. days, and I understand why—after all, they voted for Intercultural relations and student exchanges are about the disastrous Tory Brexit deal. However, Brexit’s impact much more than money, and the role of the arts and on the sector will be not a one-off blow like the pandemic; culture in securing and maintaining the long peace in rather, it will be a slow rot of our cultural institutions. It Europe is significant and irrefutable. will come in the form of reduced funding for the arts; fewer opportunities to live, travel, work and learn in We are here today to talk about money, yet we have Europe; and a seeping insular mentality that is the very heard nothing from DCMS of what will replace Creative antithesis of cultural co-operation. Europe’s culture programme. The Department’s screen fund is worth only half its European predecessor. It is “Taking back control” was the Brexiteers’ cynical clear that the screen industry is being short-changed by catchphrase; well, we have seen how much control the Brexit. What about the UK’s promised replacement for UK Government offer to artists. Last spring they could Erasmus, the Turing scheme? As the Member who tour throughout Europe visa-free, but then the UK introduced the Turing Bill—the Sexual Offences (Pardons Government’s crack negotiating team got to work, and Etc.) Bill—with promised Government backing, only to now orchestras, groups and soloists will have to pay see Tory Ministers filibuster it, I am surprised that the ¤600 per member per night to play in Spain, and ¤500 in Prime Minister has the gall to use Alan Turing’s name, Italy—the price of a visa. Many have written to me to but then I could say, “I am surprised that the Prime tell me that they have never earned that amount for a Minister has the gall”and apply it to countless situations. one-night gig, so they cannot afford to fork out a Let us just say that the Turing scheme would be better fortune for a visa. called the “mirage” scheme: it is scarcely visible on the horizon and I am not convinced that we will ever get When she appeared before the Digital, Culture, there. Media and Sport Committee recently, the Minister for Digital and Culture, the hon. Member for Gosport We all know that the work of this Department extends () seemed blithely unaware of any of beyond culture and sport, with digital being an important the detail—the Marie Antoinette of Brexit—although factor in our increasingly online world. We know that she was able to tell us that no negotiations are going on the gigabit roll-out is not the only building work the with any of the EU countries to rescue artists from this Prime Minister is undertaking, but, sadly, Tory donors mess. She did, however, promise that she was “straining will not be paying for this one. The pandemic has shown every sinew”—doing what was not entirely clear. The how essential good broadband is for so many people DCMS seems to be the most toothless Department in across the country. The 2019 Tory manifesto managed Government, utterly incapable of scoring any victories to shave eight years from the previous gigabit commitment against No. 10 philistinism on the European front. It is of the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), high time that those strained sinews delivered. We need promising the electorate the utterly undeliverable. They urgent bilateral talks with European Governments to later reduced the target from 100% full fibre to 85% with allow touring to resume there and artists to tour here as gigabit capable broadband, adding digital infrastructure well. Those artists are the lifeblood of festivals. to the long list of over-promising and under-delivering by the Government. Scotland voted to remain in Europe by a huge margin, This has been a uniquely challenging year for all and with independence we will rejoin, but until then we sectors within the Department. The actions needed for want to remain in cross-border cultural initiatives such recovery are clear, and I would urge the Minister to as Creative Europe and Erasmus. Northern Ireland, heed them. protected by the Republic of Ireland, will remain in Erasmus; Scotland, undermined by Westminster, will 4.25 pm not. Look at what we will lose. Creative Europe has been a critical funding stream for arts and culture Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): I thank organisations across these islands. Its media and culture all hon. and right hon. Members who have taken part programmes provided more than ¤100 million of direct in the debate so far, particularly my hon. Friend the funding to the UK over the past seven years. Erasmus Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), my right has been a truly remarkable gift—what student would hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington not want to be able to travel freely and study in 27 other (John McDonnell), and my hon. Friends the Members countries? Now, our young people cannot access the for Easington (Grahame Morris) and for Birmingham, scheme to travel throughout the EU and EU students Selly Oak (Steve McCabe). Let me praise the Chair of cannot travel here—yet more Brexit insularity.Of course, the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Solihull mid oven-ready turkey roast, the Prime Minister promised (Julian Knight)—he is a Chester lad, of course—for his us that there would be “no threat”to the UK’sparticipation introduction, which I thought touched on so many of in the Erasmus scheme. He guaranteed that we would the issues. remain in it. If only he had put it on the side of a bus, We have heard from Members across the House that we would all be safe, all would have been well and the the creative, culture and tourist industries have been promise would have been honoured. some of the worst hit by the pandemic. Tourism and the 927 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 928 Media and Sport Media and Sport [Christian Matheson] Street may have hoodwinked many at the time, but the reality is now out in the open. It was all for show, and rich cultural scene that Britain has to offer will be a no BAFTA-winning acting performance will cover up crucial part not only of our economic recovery, but of such a level of misdirection and misappropriation. People the recovery of our mental health and wellbeing, yet the are seeing through it. Government have still failed to meet their promise to do Of course, the extension to the culture recovery fund “whatever it takes” to support these sectors fully. is welcome. However, we must remember that these Throughout the pandemic, this Government have been sectors are not just heritage buildings and historic theatres; the masters of self-promotion, with grand announcements behind each building, there are hundreds of jobs that that in reality fall short of the supply needed or of what need saving, and some of these individuals have not was initially promised. Too often the funds allocated seen any income since the beginning of the pandemic. I have not reached the businesses or people that need spoke recently to one BAFTA-winning filmmaker who, them the most. The Chair of the Select Committee in her own words, was ready to “throw in the towel” and hinted that his Committee might be looking at that in leave the sector because of a lack of income. future. Almost a year on from the beginning of the first There are some aspects of the Government’s support national lockdown, and even with the Government’s schemes that we welcomed. For example, we welcomed slight adjustment from the Budget last week, millions of efforts to support the print media through Government self-employed people across the country remain excluded advertising, even if the adverts themselves were too from any Government support schemes. A big number party political, often featuring pictures of the Chancellor of them work within the creative sectors. That is a whole —no surprise there—and even if not enough effort was year without the work that they love; a year of uncertainty made to get the financial support through to smaller, and struggles with mental health; a year of not knowing local and independent news outlets.Similarly,we welcomed what, or when, their next job is going to be; and a year support for the commercial radio stations during the of being ignored by the Government. Hon. Members pandemic, which also saw advertising revenues collapse. across the House have referred to this in today’s debate, Again, more of that money might have gone to the including the Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. genuine independent local stations, but we will not be Member for Solihull, and the hon. Member for Bromley too critical. and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill). Weknow,for example, that the Government’s insurance I commend the freelancers’ charter and the news support scheme has assisted film and TV production to recovery plan, both produced by the National Union of get back under way, and we welcome that. My hon. Journalists, and ask that Ministers take on board what Friend the Member for Cardiff West talked about insurance the NUJ has proposed; my hon. Friend the Member for for live music, and he was echoed by the hon. Members Easington made reference to that. My hon. Friend the for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) and for Member for Cardiff West talked about the importance Winchester (Steve Brine), who talked about festivals. of supporting freelance musicians, and my right hon. Again, I pay tribute to the Minister for Media and Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John Data, who is not in his place today, for his work, both McDonnell) referred to the work that Equity has done when he was out of government and now back in office, on supporting actors in getting back to work. on journalistic freedom and the protection of journalists. Britain has some of the best culture and tourism that It is just a shame that the Prime Minister and other the world has to offer. We need the creative and cultural Ministers have spoken so disparagingly of journalists in sector to recover and grow our economy. As a whole, recent weeks. DCMS businesses, excluding tourism, contributed Of course, we welcome the culture recovery fund as £224 billion to the UK in 2018. A s the hon. Member far as it goes, with the usual criticism that by and large it for Clacton (Giles Watling) said, we would not have an supports buildings, not people. Did you notice, Madam NHS without our cultural funds, which make up 12% of Deputy Speaker, how last week’s CRF announcement, the economy. Creative businesses’ exports are worth preceding the Budget of course—let us face it, most of £36 billion worldwide, up 7.5% on the previous year, the Budget preceded the actual Budget announcement— meaning that growth is five times that of the British included a whole host of endorsements from leading economy as a whole. More importantly, after we have institutions in the cultural sector? Surely each one was been starved of so much of what the creative industries entirely spontaneous! Surely they were not all co-ordinated have to offer for over a year, the creative sector will be a by Tory Ministers! It was almost as if these institutions big part of the recovery of the nation’s wellbeing. had been lined up and told to sign off and provide a There is nothing in these estimates to make up for the supportive quote in order to get the CRF money from terrible Brexit deal that the Government have imposed the Government and the Chancellor, because for him it on the cultural sectors. I am going to have to contradict is all in the presentation. my good friend, the spokesman for the SNP, the hon. Talking of presentation, last week my hon. Friend Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (John Nicolson): the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) remarked I am quite happy to talk about the Government’s failures on the Chancellor’s commitments to the creative sector on their own Brexit deal. With that disastrous deal, the in a notable contribution reflecting on his talents for Government have all but curtailed touring in the EU by self-promotion, and who could blame the Chancellor UK performers and artists and their support crews, and for wanting to hide reality behind flash presentation likewise for EU artists and performers who want to when that reality is a miserable, below-inflation, 1% pay come here, as the Chair of the Select Committee referred rise for NHS nurses? Today, we can add another artistic to. It reduces our artists’ opportunity to work and earn string to the Chancellor’sbow—acting. His Oscar-winning abroad, and it also reduces the chance to promote performance clapping for the NHS outside 11 Downing British artistic values and achievement abroad, but it 929 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 930 Media and Sport Media and Sport seems this Government care nothing for promoting supported while restrictions continue, but it seems that Britain and British culture abroad. As is always the case the only interest that the Government have in our with the Government, it is hard-line, crackpot Brexit charitable sector is as a mechanism for the Prime Minister ideology first, everything else second, regardless of the getting somebody else to pay for his new kitchen and human and economic cost—mislead the British public wallpaper. and try, as usual, to blame the EU for everything. The Talking of charities, let us not forget Age Concern’s British public are starting to see through their failings advice about loneliness being exacerbated by the and half-truths as the reality of the hard Brexit—or, as Government’s decision to remove the free TV licence some hon. Members suggested, no-deal Brexit—in the for the over-75s. The Government are still hiding behind creative sectors starts to bite. As the pandemic eases, the BBC, too craven and dishonest to stand up and that awful reality will become only more evident. justify their own policy. But they are responsible for The Minister has been personally supportive when he removing the TV licences, not the BBC. I had hoped has engaged with me on sporting matters relating to my that there would be something in the Budget and in constituency. Other hon. Members have also said that these estimates to make good this Tory betrayal of they have been able to engage with him, and I pay pensioners, but sadly not. tribute to him for that. Of course, we are still waiting for Throughout the pandemic, there seems to be a clear the much-promised fan-led review of football, and we pattern emerging of big announcements and promises want to see the national plan for wellbeing, including of funding that for one reason or another does not participation in sport. As we come out of the pandemic, reach the businesses or the people that need it. Making we need to fast-track measures to get people involved in announcements is not enough to save the cultural and grassroots sport for their physical and mental health, as creative businesses, especially the many self-employed my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly and freelance people who work in our cultural economy, Oak (Steve McCabe) has referred to. as hon. Members across the House have mentioned in On digital, we know that the Government are lagging the debate. behind in their efforts to roll out fibre broadband. Although the extensions and promises of funding are Ofcom has reported that adults are spending an average welcome, the Government must look at this again to of four hours a day online, the highest number on ensure that DCMS businesses and people in those sectors record, and the number of adults using video calling are properly supported. Without them, our recovery software has doubled—don’t we all know it, Madam from the pandemic will be very bleak. People want life Deputy Speaker? Hon. Members from across the House after the pandemic, and that life is provided by the have talked about the lack of decent broadband in their creative and cultural sector. Let us hope that it is still areas: the hon. Member for West Dorset (Chris Loder), there to breathe life back into our society when we put whose constituency is in a rural area, the hon. Member the pandemic behind us. for Southend West (Sir David Amess), and my next-door neighbour the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Edward 4.36 pm Timpson), who knows rural Cheshire very well, have all The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, mentioned this issue. Culture, Media and Sport (Nigel Huddleston): It is a The shift online has emphasised the digital divide pleasure to respond on the Government’s behalf to this that exists in our country, which is not just geographic. important debate, which comes at the end of a hugely There are 1.9 million households with no access to the challenging year for all the sectors mentioned today. internet, and tens of millions more reliant on pay-as-you-go I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull services to make calls and access healthcare, education (Julian Knight) for securing the debate, and pay tribute and benefits online. This divide has led to children to him and the members of the Select Committee, from having to do their homework in fast food restaurants in all parties, for conducting the review that forms the order to access wi-fi, and parents having to choose basis of the debate and provides such informed evidence between buying data or food. Meanwhile, we await the and recommendations. I appreciate, even if I do not Government’s online safety Bill, which still will not completely agree with, the comments made by the hon. tackle the dominance of big tech companies. We have Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson), seen the Secretary of State being pushed around by with whom I spent many years on the Select Committee. Sir Nick Clegg and Facebook, refusing to include a firm I have many fond memories of that, and I absolutely commitment to director-level responsibility in the online understand the passion Committee members have for safety Bill and then, like a playground weakling, only these sectors, which is shared across the House. We have piling in against big tech when most of the hard work to seen that today. challenge the power of online media had already been The passion shown today is a demonstration of how done by Australia. There is still no commitment to work important the digital, culture, media and sports sectors with Governments across the world to rein in this are, not just for our economy and our heritage, but for our antidemocratic transnational force, which also damages wellbeing as a nation. At a time of incredible hardship our domestic media, as my hon. Friend the Member for for many, so often a book, music, a sports game or a TV Easington suggested. programme has provided some welcome respite from Charities have suffered greatly during the pandemic. the destruction and disruption caused by the pandemic. The charity deficit for this financial year is expected to We have heard passionate speeches today from hon. exceed £10 billion, with the sector predicting 60,000 job Members on both sides of the House highlighting what losses. Despite a funding package announced last April, we already know: that as well as making a huge economic many in the sector are still struggling, with the second contribution, DCMS sectors enrich our lives and make lockdown likely to hit fundraising opportunities. Charities them more fulfilling. In many ways, they make life deliver so many of our public services and they must be worth living, and we should never forget that. 931 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 932 Media and Sport Media and Sport [Nigel Huddleston] As Tourism Minister, I am keenly aware just how much people are looking forward to taking a holiday Many Members,including my hon. Friends the Members and visiting some of our world-class and world-famous for Clacton (Giles Watling) and for Warrington South visitor attractions—including myself.By “including myself”, (Andy Carter), have highlighted the vast contribution I mean that I look forward to visiting the attractions, DCMS sectors make to the economy, with £116 billion rather than that I am a world-class visitor attraction, as from the creative industries, £75 billion from tourism much as I would appreciate that! In the spring, we will and £151 billion from digital, and the millions of jobs go further by publishing a tourism recovery plan that sets sustained by those sectors.Before I discuss the sector-specific out our ambitious vision for the sector. I look forward support, I will touch on the pan-economic and multi-sector to working with my right hon. Friend the Member for schemes that have illustrated the Government’s resolve East Hampshire, and we will work with colleagues to do whatever it takes to see organisations and businesses across the House. through the pandemic. In have spoken about the £65 billion of measures As many hon. Members have highlighted, the Chancellor, announced on top of the £353 billion announced last in his Budget speech last week, announced the extension week. Let me now focus on some sector-specific measures. of the furlough scheme until the end of September, Many hon. Members have mentioned the culture recovery which is hugely welcomed across our DCMS sectors fund, and I appreciate that many Opposition Members and will help to not only secure jobs but enable planning have welcomed that. Over £1 billion of culture recovery and reopening. Our sectors have many self-employed fund money has already been allocated to over 3,800 people and freelancers, as many hon. Members have arts, heritage and cultural organisations up and down mentioned today. I am keenly aware of the financial the country, helping to support 75,000 jobs. That is need in which many have found themselves.The Chancellor important. extended the self-employment income support scheme, We have heard a little bit of a tone today that it is all and an additional 600,000 people can now access this about protecting buildings; far from it. The money is support, on top of the 67% of the self-employed who being spent to sustain jobs and to help, in many areas, have already received assistance. More than 70,000 quite niche skills that are otherwise in danger of freelancers in the arts and entertainment sector have disappearing. My hon. Friends the Members for Clacton, received money via this scheme. In addition, Arts Council for Darlington (Peter Gibson), for Stoke-on-Trent Central England has awarded £51 million to thousands of (Jo Gideon) and for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert individuals needing support. Neill), my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood Let me turn to other measures. There is obviously the (Chris Skidmore) and others have highlighted this. For new recovery loan scheme to replace the existing schemes, example, £170 million has been awarded to over 690 music and the Budget included an enhanced support package organisations. As my hon. Friend the Member for for leisure and hospitality businesses that must remain Warrington South mentioned, more than 200 independent closed until step 3, with restart grants worth up to cinemas have received money, from Penrith to Penzance. £18,000 per premises. The Chancellor also announced Many museums have also received money. that the business rates holiday for retail, hospitality and Although the exact scope for the CRF extension is leisure businesses in England has been extended by an yet to be announced, as with the original fund, the additional three months, and the Government have money will go to heritage and cultural organisations extended the temporary 5% reduced rate of VAT on that require support to transition back to operating hospitality and tourism. This VAT cut alone is forecast fully. It is absolutely the intention that entities that by the Office for Budget Responsibility to be worth perhaps have not received money so far should and about £4.7 billion for hospitality, tourism and visitor could be eligible for further CRF money. attractions. Many hon. Members have mentioned film and TV. Many Members, including my hon. Friend the Member As a result of Government support—most notably, the for Southend West (Sir David Amess), my right hon. £500 million film and tv restart scheme—this sector has Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), bounced back, with a production spend this quarter of the hon. Members for Caithness, Sutherland and £2.8 billion, which is the second highest on record. The Easter Ross (Jamie Stone), for Birmingham, Selly Oak Chancellor announced an extension of this scheme to (Steve McCabe) and for Edinburgh East (Tommy 31 December 2021. Sheppard), and many others, have mentioned tourism. Many hon. Members also mentioned visiting a museum, The tourism sector has been hit particularly hard by the watching a play, listening to live music and, indeed, pandemic. It has therefore, quite rightly, particularly going to a live event, which we are all looking forward benefited from the pan-economy measures such as the to doing again. With regard to the events industry, furlough scheme and loan scheme, as well as being including the music events industry, we are in regular targeted for grant support, business rates relief, VAT dialogue with the sector and all stakeholders. We are reduction and so on—and justifiably so, as tourism is a looking to resume these events as part of step 4 of the major UK industry. road map. As set out in the road map, the events Inbound tourism is one of our biggest export earners, research programme will explore when and how music contributing over £75 billion in GVA to the economy festivals and other events can return without social and sustaining millions of jobs. Over the last year, we distancing and restrictive capacity capped. Subject to estimate that over £25 billion has been spent on supporting the outcome of that work, and other reviews, we hope tourism, hospitality and leisure through a combination to set out how festivals and other large events can safely of grants, loans and tax breaks. This level of investment go ahead with appropriate mitigations in place. I know demonstrates the huge value that these sectors provide—not that this is a particular passion of my hon. Friend the only to our economy, but to our quality of life. Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) and many others. 933 Department for Digital, Culture, 10 MARCH 2021 Department for Digital, Culture, 934 Media and Sport Media and Sport A related issue was then raised by many hon. Members in consultation with the UK’s creative industries and about insurance. We are very aware of the concerns that were rejected by the EU. We are now working urgently have been raised about the challenges of securing indemnity across Government and in collaboration with the creative cover for live events, and my officials have been working industries, including through a new working group, to closely with the affected sectors to understand all barriers help address these issues so that touring in Europe can to reopening, including, of course, challenges around resume as soon as possible. indemnity cover and insurance. The bar for considering In conclusion, I know that I speak for the whole House Government intervention is extremely high, especially when I say that I cannot wait to have our theatres, our in the light of other support measures, including the sports, our events, our festivals—quite frankly, life as extension of the furlough scheme and other business we knew it—back; as soon as possible. As the Chancellor support. None the less, I certainly hear what hon. told the House last week, the Government stand ready Members are saying today and so do others. to do whatever it takes to help the country and our Sport was mentioned by many hon. Members, including, economy to recover from the disruption of coronavirus. as always, my hon. Friends the Members for Bury The Select Committee’s report was a welcome and North (James Daly), for Eddisbury (Edward Timpson) constructive contribution to that debate. Indeed, this and for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins). We debate has also been extremely constructive. We will know that sport and physical activity are crucial to our continue to use the data and information provided by mental and physical health. That is why we have continued stakeholders and many of us to shape our approach to to make sure that people can exercise throughout the providing assistance to the hugely important DCMS national restrictions and that grassroots and children’s sectors and to help them plan for reopening as soon as sport are absolutely at the front of the queue when easing it is safe to do so, which, thankfully, will be very soon. begins later this month. As well as ensuring that restrictions allow for people to take regular exercise, central to our 4.49 pm efforts to help sport has been the £300 million sports Julian Knight [V]: I thank all right hon. and hon. winter survival package, which was extended in an Members for their contributions. We have seen, writ additional announcement just last week. That is on top large, the vital role that DCMS sectors play in all our of £220 million funding provided by Sport England, constituencies the length and breadth of the country. I which, again, has been widely distributed. thank the Minister for his warm words, and for his Hon. Members mentioned many more topics today, ongoing commitment and that of his fellow Ministers but I am afraid that time does not permit me to answer and their advisers. I wish, however, that there was all of them, much as I would love to. None the less, I Treasury representation right now on the Treasury Bench, really appreciate the volume and variety of comments because, as we all know, and as has been highlighted by today. Broadband was mentioned by my hon. Friends my Committee, DCMS is the most beholden of all the Members for West Dorset (Chris Loder), for Eddisbury Departments to the Treasury. and others. I can assure Members of this House that Obviously, the cultural recovery fund is very welcome, they are,indeed, doughty campaigners for their constituents but the time for backslapping has now stopped—we who constantly not only the knight in shining need to refocus. Insurance will allow our live events to armour, as I think the Under-Secretary of State for trade, not aid. The Minister made reference to the film Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the and TV recovery plan and the insurance there, which, Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman) was for me, is an example of why this is needed. We need called, but many others. The Government want to become pilots up and running for live events in double-quick a world leader in connectivity and increase the UK’s time, and we need a root-and-branch review of tourism, productivity and competitiveness by doing so. We have as outlined, but with proper investment to follow. We set ambitious targets for gigabit-capable broadband, need to get on and negotiate with our partners across and, of course, we will continue with other measures. the EU on EU visa arrangements and access for our Superfast broadband coverage has already reached creative industries. There is really no time to lose. 97%—one of the highest numbers in Europe. By the Above all else today, we need to understand a very end of 2021, we expect that more than half the country simple thing: the DCMS sectors, and those who work will be connected to gigabit-capable networks. By 2025, within them, are not mendicants, forever holding out the Government are targeting a minimum of 85% gigabit- their hands; they are entrepreneurial and they are actually capable coverage, but will seek to accelerate that further what we do best. and get as close to 100% as possible. Question deferred (Standing Order No. 54). Touring was mentioned by many colleagues. It is important to say that British artists can still tour and Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I will perform in the EU, but we pushed for more ambitious briefly suspend the House for three minutes in order arrangements for artists to be able to work across that arrangements can be made for the next debate. Europe. Our proposals would have allowed artists to travel and perform in the UK and the EU more easily 4.51 pm without needing work permits, but these were developed Sitting suspended. 935 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 936

CABINET OFFICE the UN notes a significant gap between longer-term carbon neutrality target announcements and commitments set out in the NDCs. COP26 The crucial and urgent task for COP26 is therefore to [Relevant documents: Third Report of the Business, Energy bridge the gap between rhetoric and reality and to bring and Industrial Strategy Committee, Net zero and UN every nation with us on the route to achieving our Paris climate summits: Scrutiny of Preparations for COP26— targets. This highlights the urgent need for a full interim report, HC 1265; Fourth Special Report of the Government response, especially a diplomatic response. Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, China, for example, has committed to achieving net COP26: Principles and priorities—a POST survey of zero by 2060—an important and welcome commitment— expert views, HC 1000; Transcripts of oral evidence on but its recent five-year plan pushed the difficult and Preparation for COP26 taken before the Environmental expensive decisions into the long grass. We should not Audit Committee on 17 March and 14 May 2020, HC 222.] get to COP26 and just tell big emitters such as China, India or others that they are not moving away from coal Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I quickly enough, for example, not least when we are inform the House that Mr Speaker has not selected the planning our own new coalmine here in the UK. Instead, amendment in the name of Bell Ribeiro-Addy. we should have British diplomats in Beijing, Delhi and Motion made, and Question proposed, other capitals asking, “What can the world do to help you move away from coal more quickly?” That, for the year ending with 31 March 2021, for expenditure by the : Here in the United Kingdom, we have legislated for (1) further resources, not exceeding £975,392,000, be net zero by 2050. The trouble is that, increasingly, we authorised for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1227, seem to be going off track at home. Yes, we were world leaders in legislating for net zero by 2050, and we have (2) further resources, not exceeding £76,060,000, be authorised for use for capital purposes as so set out, and submitted a bold and welcome NDC, but the Public Accounts Committee last week concluded that there is (3) a further sum, not exceeding £798,643,000, be granted to no credible Government plan for how we deliver on Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated those pledges. Yes, we have the energy White Paper, but Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised where is the net zero spending review or the net zero by Parliament.—(David T. C. Davies.) strategy? In the new plan for growth, which replaced the scrapped industrial strategy last week via a footnote 4.55 pm in the Budget, the horizon scan of Government announcements on our net zero transition did not even Darren Jones (Bristol North West) (Lab): May I include the net zero spending review. The Government, begin by congratulating you, Madam Deputy Speaker, we understand, are planning to reduce air passenger on your increasingly iconic videos on , which, duty on short flights within the United Kingdom. They with a lower budget, provide more charm than the have U-turned on the vital green homes grant initiative, Chancellor’s glitzy versions on Instagram? withdrawing a billion pounds of funding. The Budget Five years ago, the Paris agreement committed the last week made little mention of the so-called green world to limiting global warming to at least 2° C above industrial revolution. pre-industrial levels but called on all of us to get as close to 1.5° C as possible. The recent announcements On heating, which we are considering on the Business, on net zero from the United Kingdom, the United Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, we have States, the European Union, China and others mean enormous challenges ahead of us. It is the second that we are within striking distance of reaching that largest emitter of carbon in the UK after surface transport, Paris target. According to the Climate Action Tracker, yet we have not made sufficient progress in understanding the net zero targets that have been pledged so far could how we insulate people’s homes and also heat them limit global warming to 2.1° C above pre-industrial without burning gas in the future. As the citizens’ levels by the year 2100. That builds in the announcements assembly on climate change concluded, as led by my from China, the United States, the United Kingdom, Select Committee and five others in the House, the Canada, Japan, South Korea and others. But those public expect us to be making sufficient progress and welcome announcements need to be translated into taking the difficult decisions to reach our net zero updatednationallydeterminedcontributions—NDCs—that target. need to be submitted to the UN before COP26 and, The fact is—I believe we all know this—the longer we crucially, into deliverable climate action plans. leave this, the more difficult and expensive it becomes. I Unfortunately, the UN’s NDC synthesis report last do not know how long I will be in this House, but as a month raised concerns instead of hopes.As at 31 December, Member who is, dare I say, on the younger side of the only 75 parties to the Paris agreement had submitted bell curve, I will be quite frankly furious if Ministers their NDCs,representing 30% of global emissions.Whereas around the world, let alone in my own country, delegate the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change the difficult work to the next generation, not least recommends that we cut global emissions by 45% by because it will be too late. It is therefore vital that we 2030 compared with 2010 levels in order to limit temperature make progress at home and abroad and that we get on growth to 1.5° C, the NDCs submitted so far only get us with that important work now. That means we need to 1% of that 45% recommendation. Only two of the more than just a letter from the Foreign Secretary and 18 largest emitters had submitted updated NDCs at the permanent secretary asking diplomatic missions to the end of 2020, including the United Kingdom and the prioritise this work. It needs dedicated climate diplomats European Union. Of the NDCs that have been submitted, working within each country—diplomats who can listen 937 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 938 and report back on the concerns or obstacles faced by There is cross-party support for Britain’s leadership leaders in reaching their required contributions to limiting of COP26, because it is a crucial milestone. The world global temperature growth. needs to step up. It needs to set up credible, costed and Only by doing that work well in advance of COP26 in deliverable climate action plans that get us to the targets November can we anticipate and respond adequately we all agreed in Paris five years ago. Those often difficult to the needs of each nation. If we fail to do so, and countries decisions cannot be pushed into the long grass and left come to Glasgow in November with real concerns—whether for future generations of leaders to deal with. If that on climate aid, the balance between wealthy and less happens, it will be not just a failure of politics, but a wealthy nations or the commitments from big emitters—we failure of humanity, because our planet will be risk repeating the mistakes of the Copenhagen summit, unrecognisable compared with today if we fail in this with unresolved tensions being managed during COP task. itself and ultimately ending in failure. Climate migration following huge swathes of land In our recent interim report on COP26 and net zero, around the equator turning into desert will pose a the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee challenge to countries in the northern hemisphere and expressed concerns about the lack of focus on the other parts of the world like never before. Difficult necessity of submitting these updated nationally determined issues, such as the future management of Antarctica, contributions and climate action plans, and also on the will become live issues as potentially habitable land potential lack of support from the machinery of becomes available, while other habitable land is lost. government in delivering on COP26. Shortages of food, water and energy in the face of The CEO of the COP26 unit, Peter Hill, confirmed dramatic geopolitical changes and new national security that there are around 160 staff within the COP26 unit, threats will make covid look like a minor problem. In which sits in the Cabinet Office. This unit is funded to that context, and with that sense of urgency, while I the tune of £216 million through departmental transfers welcome the commitment to net zero that will get us from the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development near the Paris target, we have to see deliverable climate Office, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial action plans lodged at COP26, with countries’ leaders Strategy, the Department for Transport and others, and taking the difficult decisions and bringing forward that is in addition to the £180 million allocated for investment—including climate aid from wealthynations—to security, representing the fact that the COP26 conference show the world that we take this issue seriously not just in Glasgow will be one of the largest police operations in rhetoric but in reality. in British history.I am sure there must be more dedicated We want the COP26 President and his team to be resources, especially in the Foreign, Commonwealth successful in delivering the required outcomes. All of us and Development Office, for this important work, and I in this House, I am sure, support him in those endeavours, hope that the COP26 President will set that out for the but we also want to be assured that the Prime Minister House today. and his Government are fully getting behind the COP Lastly, we need urgent clarity on how COP26 itself team so that, come November, we will be celebrating the will work in practice. I support the COP26 President’s success of COP26, not mourning its failure in the face aim of having an in-person summit and agree that that of climate disaster. is the best way of illustrating equality between all nations around the decision-making table, but COP26 is not Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I just for Heads of State and Ministers and officials. thank the hon. Gentleman for opening the debate and Some countries bring very large delegations; others for his extremely unexpected but very kind remarks. bring smaller delegations. Can the COP26 President It will come as a great surprise to everyone that I am update the House on what the UK delegation will be about to announce a time limit that has not been heard and who will be included in it? There is also a great deal of for some time. The time limit in this debate will not of wider engagement at COP, from business leaders and be three minutes. It will initially be eight minutes. I parliamentarians to civil society and non-governmental should explain this unusual situation: the reason is that organisations. That usually means a large conference-style so many colleagues, at the last minute, withdrew not event. Indeed, the Government have said that COP26 from this debate but from the previous debate, thereby will be the largest summit the UK has ever hosted, with leaving more time for this debate. We will therefore start 30,000 delegates, but that statement was, I think, made with eight minutes, which is likely to reduce to about before covid. seven minutes, but I do not envisage its reducing to I have raised the issue in COP26 questions, but it is three minutes. I call Tom Tugendhat. now urgent to get clarity for delegations and the wider group of COP26 attendees about how online engagement 5.7 pm will work if they are unable to attend in person, and how it will be determined whether delegates or other Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): Thank visitors are able to attend in person. The COP26 President you, Madam Deputy Speaker—and let’s push those may wish to update the House today on how the eight minutes, shall we? Government intend to provide, if necessary, covid It is a great pleasure to be in the Chamber today vaccinations, testing and quarantine services for those talking about COP26, because it really is the absolute physically participating in Glasgow. Indeed, concerns key event this year. We are going to get through covid, have been expressed by many, including me, that many and we are already well along in the right direction due nations, especially developing nations, are further behind to the brilliance of various people in Government, in in the roll-out of their own covid vaccinations. What science and in the NHS, and many, many thousands of steps can either the UK or UNFCCC take to ensure volunteers around the UK. That will free us and the that the delegates are vaccinated and able to take part world to focus on the real existential threat that we face, physically during COP in Glasgow in November? which is, of course, climate change. 939 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 940

[Tom Tugendhat] some of the progress along the way. My friend, the hon. Member for Bristol North West, has set out many of I am delighted to follow my friend the hon. Member the targets that we should be looking to, and I hope that for Bristol North West (Darren Jones), under whose he will be as co-operative in reporting back to this chairmanship the BEIS Committee has begun to expose House and to Parliament generally to make sure that we some of the questions that we need to answer in the can help to guide the process. This will be one of those coming months. I am also delighted that we are working moments when we can define the future—we can change together on that, because one of the things I have policies not just in this country but around the world to discovered since taking the Chair of the Foreign Affairs make these aims possible. We need to be talking actively Committee is how little of our international reach is not just about carbon offshoring and carbon pricing exercised by the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development but about how we transform the very nature of the Office. I thought that the largest and most seminal societies in which we are working. The hon. Gentleman conference absorbing our diplomatic network and shaping spoke about Antarctica and, indeed, other areas being our diplomatic output for this year would be run by the made uninhabitable. We need this to be a policy that is Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, but not just led by the Cabinet Office but touches on every it is not: it is run by the Cabinet Office, and run very single aspect of Britain’s foreign policy. ably by my right hon. Friend the COP26 President; I am Whatever happens with the aid budget—I know that delighted that he is supported so well by the Foreign, many of us hope that 0.7% will be rather more respected Commonwealth and Development Office. It was a bit than do others—what we decide to do in aid, in diplomacy of a surprise to me, but then again, I suppose I should and in how we structure our trade policy will have a not be surprised, because our Europe policy is also run direct consequence on whatever my right hon. Friend by the Cabinet Office, and not even in this House, so agrees with partners around the world. That is why I perhaps I should expect our Americas policy and our very much hope that his role, as he sees it, will not just Africa policy to be run by the Cabinet Office. Eventually, be about a conference—not just about an event, a day perhaps only our Scottish policy will be run by the and a moment—and not even just about a deal, although Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, but it is a hugely important deal. Actually, this will be about that would be a great shame. Maybe that can bring us a change of structure, a new understanding and a new back to talking about the importance of focusing on the partnership that engages all of us and—yes—the Biden joined-up policy that we need to see. Administration, who have already demonstrated such While the Select Committees have come together and interest, as well as our partners in the European Union, have been working together, it is also worth pointing our partners in the Commonwealth and, indeed, those out how well the Government have begun to work countries with whom we have often found it harder to together. When the French started their process, it work. If we do not get this right, we will feel the resulted in the Paris COP21 that everybody remembers. pain—it is true—but we will also see an increased That was not only a success at the time, but with the salination of the rice fields of eastern China, an increased election of President Biden, it has become a renewed desertification of the many parts of the world that are success as Paris has just been signed up to again by the already struggling, and an erosion of the ability of United States. It took them two years, hundreds of many communities to sustain. diplomats and a former Prime Minister to bring all that This year, the World Food Programme was rightly together. That work was really, really tough. What my awarded the Nobel peace prize— a well-earned prize. I right hon. Friend has picked up on is that he started was fortunate enough to speak to its director general, later with fewer staff and in the middle of the covid Governor David Beasley, who is an amazing individual pandemic, and that makes it really difficult. However, I and a great friend of our country. He pointed out what I can report from, if he will excuse me, spies in other think is well worth remembering: if we think that the camps that the pace at which he is producing results is migration crisis that we saw in 2015 out of Syria was already very well received. I am delighted to say that in something serious, just imagine the crisis that would be conversations I have had with representatives from other caused if my right hon. Friend the COP26 President countries—I am not going to name them, but they are and his friends and partners around the world were to people who have spoken to him in recent days and fail in Glasgow. I hope he knows that he will have the weeks—they have reported that he is certainly well on support of the whole House, and he will certainly have the way to delivering a result. the support of the Committees, as we try to help him to Of course, this is not just down to my right hon. shape and achieve the results that we all need. Friend; it is also down to our partners around the world. Many people have heard me in this House 5.15 pm condemning communism, but I have to tell the House that I have actually been working very closely with John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab) [V]: I a communist in order to try to achieve some of the echo the words of the last speaker, the hon. Member for results that we are all trying to share. He is my opposite Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat), about how number and colleague in the Italian Parliament— monumental the decisions will be that need to be taken Piero Fassino, the former communist mayor of Turin, this November, because November’s COP26 in Glasgow who now chairs its foreign affairs committee, because is a historic opportunity for Britain to provide leadership this conference is of course being organised jointly with to the world on climate change. our Italian partners. We have all welcomed my right I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for hon. Friend’s co-operation with them. Bristol North West (Darren Jones) and his colleagues In the run-up to our going to that wonderful city of on the Business,Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, Glasgow—my favourite city in the north—later this who have produced detailed reports that should be year, I very much hope that we will get a chance to see influencing the Cabinet Office and shaping the agenda 941 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 942 in the run-up to COP26. Scientists and climate experts statutory services their communities need, let alone the are urging the Government to lead the way in adopting funding they need to take on the challenge of climate ambitious deadlines for achieving net zero along with change. shorter-term interim targets, and it is those targets that The autumn statement is expected to be delivered on are vital. The former Prime Minister committed the UK the eve of COP26. I just say to the Government that we Government to reach net zero carbon emissions by hope for something better then. Otherwise, unless a 2050. The BEIS Committee said last week that serious plan is brought forward and unless there are “no details have yet been provided on how success will be measured” significant resources attached to that plan, what leadership can the UK Government hope to offer the rest of the for COP 26. We cannot achieve significant carbon world? What authority can it possibly have in those reductions by empty words, good PR or grandiose vital discussions, when we are trying to bring together declarations. It takes action. others, some more recalcitrant than others, who will be I have to say, last week’s Budget does not give us brought to the table to have a serious discussion only much hope of demonstrating world leadership. In fact, when they see others leading by example? for some of us, it is a cause of despair and shame. The I believe that without drastic action COP26 risks decisions by the Government to freeze fuel duty and to exposing the UK Government as a laughing stock on dig a new coalmine, and the pathetic scale of the climate change if we are not careful. I urge Ministers to Government’s environmental policies are a dereliction change course and show some leadership. I urge them of duty to the planet and to future generations. It is a now to look at the reports our Select Committees have failure of Government, who could have acted to create produced. They provide not just an agenda of issues to hundreds of thousands of climate jobs in areas from be addressed, but a direction that the Government wind turbines to tidal lagoons, from electric car charge could take. Otherwise, it is a betrayal of future generations. points to tree planting, but there was no evidence of the My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West scale of investment and scale of ambition that the hon. claimed the future for himself. Well, some of us older Member for Tonbridge and Malling and my hon. Friend ones have an interest in the future as well, with our the Member for Bristol North West called for. Instead children and grandchildren. This November will ensure, of tying corporate tax breaks and investment write-offs hopefully, that they will have a planet that they can to clear climate criteria, the giveaways announced in the survive on and flourish on. Budget could hinder,rather than help our carbon reduction From the evidence I have seen so far—it is not just strategy. me; I think it is independent experts as well—the leadership The verdict of Richard Black from the Energy and the Government are showing is nowhere near the scale Climate Intelligence Unit was that this was or commitment we need to demonstrate to the rest of the world what can be done, what needs to be done and “a Budget that didn’t even try to get the Conservatives on track to their net zero target”. what our country can contribute. Today, there are reports that the Government will cut Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): The air passenger duty on domestic flights. Frankly, I would time limit is now reduced, but it is only reduced to seven struggle to find a more regressive policy, and I speak as minutes. somebody who represents a constituency with Heathrow in it. I would struggle to find something that is more 5.22 pm regressive than encouraging domestic aviation before Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) [V]: Thank you, Madam we have had that debate and discussion and the development Deputy Speaker, for your generosity in this debate. of the environmental aviation strategy. Although it may have been a little hard to determine It is crystal clear to me that this Government have no from the remarks by my immediate predecessor in this co-ordinated plan and no cross-departmental agenda to debate, the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington drive the decarbonisation that we seek. This is not just (John McDonnell), he welcomed this debate and I join my view, but that of the Public Accounts Committee, him in doing so. I congratulate the hon. Member for which has been quoted. The PAC published a report on Bristol North West (Darren Jones) on his opening remarks. achieving net zero with the brutal conclusion, “Government He is right that there is a consensus across the House. lacks a plan”. Never have four words better summed up Weall want to see COP26 as a hugely successful conference, an Administration than that. not just for the UK but for the whole world, to set us on a path to zero emissions by 2050, an ambition that was In terms of the modest 2050 target, the Committee set out some time ago. said, damningly: The objectives for the COP26 series of discussions, “there is little sign that it”— which of course were due to have taken place last year had it not been for covid, were actually set at Paris the Government— five years ago. It is worth reminding ourselves, at the “understands how to get there”. outset of my remarks, of the four particular commitments I will raise just one other point from the report, which that were set for the forthcoming conference. The first said: was to enhance Governments’ nationally determined contributions. This will be the first time since Paris that “Local authorities will also play a major role in the move to net they will have been ratcheted up. The second was to zero, and Government will need to engage more with local invite each country to provide a long-term strategy, to authorities about how they can contribute”. give a pathway to decarbonisation by 2050. Where I The irony is that today we learned that across the agree with the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington country more than two dozen councils are on the brink is that it is beholden on the Government to set out of bankruptcy, stripped of the funding to provide the clarity over the path to 2050, not just the target. 943 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 944

[Philip Dunne] UK leadership. The UK has met the first and second carbon budgets and has already reduced emissions below The third commitment was to do with finance. There the level expected in the third carbon budget, up to 2022. was $100 billion per annum mobilised for the poorest However, as is widely acknowledged, we are not on countries to help them green their economies and adapt track to meet either the fourth or fifth carbon budgets, to the impact of climate change. We need to see how which were legislated for on the basis of an 80% cut in that is going to be delivered when we get to Glasgow. emissions using the 1990 baseline by 2050, rather than Finally, there was the issue of the rulebook for a the more ambitious net zero target that we now have in global carbon market to avoid double counting and to legislation. set the standards. Here, I think the UK has a great A major ramp-up is needed, as is acknowledged by opportunity to show its famed global leadership. This the Committee on Climate Change, to achieve that, and conference will be the largest ever held in this country in the UK will have to make more progress. Although it terms of the number of countries participating, and I has been succeeding in the power sector, emissions are hope that most of them will be able to be here, in one either not falling or not falling fast enough across form or another, in person. It is a real opportunity for transport, agriculture, housing and industry. Bringing the nation to lead the world and for the Prime Minister forward the petrol and diesel car ban is welcome, but it to put his stamp on the future. is not the only measure that the Government have to As the UK is acting as host country—with Italy, as take—[Inaudible.] has been said—we will act as a neutral arbiter in these negotiations. Weneed to ensure that every country—every Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. Paris signatory, at least—is supported in bringing forward The right hon. Gentleman has exceeded the time limit. I its updated nationally determined contribution. At the was trying to give him a little leeway, but the system will beginning of the Paris conference, 186 of the 196 parties not allow me to let him finish his sentence. We therefore attending had presented their nationally determined go to Kilmarnock, and to Alan Brown. contributions. I know that progress has been made, but we have a long way to go to match France’s performance 5.30 pm when it hosted the last of this series of conferences. The UK announced its contribution, a 68% reduction Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP) [V]: in emissions against the 1990 benchmark, last December. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I must say that Several other countries have set out high-profile ambitions this is the first time I have ever had the chance to get my since, including China, Japan and South Korea looking red pen out and add to my notes, rather than having to to get to net zero by the mid-21st century, and some scrub notes out frantically. It is a pleasure to follow the presenting nearer-term targets ahead of COP26. However, right hon. Member for Ludlow (Philip Dunne), the we still have to see progress from some major economies, Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee. including Russia, Brazil and Australia—and I know COP26 is clearly the most important COP since that the US will now be joining; we need to see where it Paris, and it is critical for our net zero commitments. It gets to, too. Perhaps the COP26 President will update is a chance for the UK to be on the world stage, but we us on his discussions with President Biden’s special have to ask whether matters are in hand. If we look at envoy, John Kerry, who was in the UK very recently. the Cabinet Office estimates, I would suggest not. We I want to touch on two other aspects—first, how know that the Cabinet Office COP26 budget for this does Parliament engage in scrutinising progress? The financial year was revised down from £216 million to Environmental Audit Committee—in common with other just £22 million due to the postponement, but what has Committees, as we have heard—has undertaken various been achieved to date with that expenditure? What will sessions in relation to COP26. The first was a year ago, the future budget look like? We do not really know, when we engaged with stakeholders who were involved which in itself shows the entire farce of the estimates with previous COPs to establish what the Government’s process. preparations needed to focus on. We then had a session Has the memorandum of understanding between with Nigel Topping and Fiona Reynolds in May last year Police Scotland and the UK Government been signed on the role of finance in leading the way for the upcoming off, underwriting the estimated £180 million policing COP, and we also questioned Christiana Figueres, the cost? Where is the budget line for that? We can still former executive secretary of the UN convention, last recall that the Home Office did not stump up for the Lib year. We questioned my right hon. Friend the COP26 Dems’ party conference in Glasgow in 2013, which left President, who was then President-designate, in September Police Scotland £800,000 out of pocket. It is critical last year. that the Police Scotland budget is not affected. Nine Select Committees have locus in relation to As a member of the BEIS Committee, I was pleased this issue, and we have all agreed to work together in to take part in an inquiry about the COP26 preparations. scrutinising the UK Government preparations. We, as the The hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) Environmental Audit Committee, will lead the first of has covered it admirably, but I will reiterate some key those scrutiny sessions,on cross-Government arrangements recommendations that need to be considered. First, we and the machinery of government, tomorrow morning. need to ensure that the correct resource allocation from I am very pleased that my right hon. Friend the COP26 the civil service is in place. That needs a real focus from President will be attending, with two of his senior the Cabinet Office, not its current obsession with Union officials. units. In the last couple of years, the Cabinet Office has The eyes of the world will be on us to make a credible also been a propaganda unit—first for Brexit, now the success of COP. The challenge is across many areas. We Union. Let us get a focus on COP26, which is a real need to use the national events that we have to demonstrate priority. 945 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 946

Weneed to put in place measurable outcomes of success. is the UK Government’s national bus strategy? This is The Committee has also suggested that parliamentary the type of leadership and joined-up thinking that is engagement needs to extend to the devolved legislatures, lacking at the moment. as well as the Westminster process. That brings us to the I would ask the UK Government to be bold, and to fact that leaders and relevant Ministers of the devolved abandon nuclear. This is not going to be the technology Governments should form part of the UK delegation, saviour they demonstrate to the rest of the world. We as well as Opposition MPs. Let us show inclusivity as still cannot deal with nuclear waste, so we really do need part of COP26, whatever Governments elsewhere do—but to move away from this. Ahead of COP26, they should that will take real leadership from the COP26 President, give sign-off for pumped-storage hydro. Floating offshore given that we know the Prime Minister’s view on Scottish wind, green hydrogen, and wave and tidal technologies devolution. are the renewable technologies to focus on, so can we We need the UK Government to set the sixth confirm ring-fenced contracts for difference pots for carbon budget as soon as possible, incorporating the those? We should look at innovation in power purchase recommendations of the Committee on Climate Change agreements for smaller marine projects to allow them to in full. Serious consideration needs to be given to resetting get to market. the fifth carbon budget, which currently is not aligned Those are technologies that the UK and in particular to net zero. Scotland, as the host country, can show to the world Something else that I will throw into the mix is and be part of a coherent plan for an energy strategy. We reconsidering the cuts to the foreign aid budget. As the need to be able to demonstrate it as part of the overall right hon. Member for Ludlow pointed out, a lot of plan to lead other countries and make COP26 a real finance needs to be mobilised to help developing countries. success. There is a lot of work to do in domestic policy We have started to debate the damage and loss going and a lot of work in the negotiations that lie ahead of forward. It sends completely the wrong message that COP26 to make it a success. the UK, as the host country, is cutting its foreign aid to the poorest countries in the world. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Just for everybody’s information, the wind-ups will start no Clearly covid has been an overriding UK Government later than 6.28 pm with Deidre Brock. There will then priority, and they have to deal with an emergency, but it be shadow Minister at 6.38 pm, feels as if the extra time gained from the postponement the COP26 President at 6.48 pm, and Darren Jones at has not been put to full use. We need more information 6.58 pm. on the preparations. Certainly we need some kind of decision-making timeline made available that ties in 5.37 pm with public health assessments, and plans to ensure that no countries are left out going forward. We really need David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and more progress on the agreement over the nationally Tweeddale) (Con): Mr Deputy Speaker, I sense that you determined contributions. It is critical that all spend are probably not as familiar with Glasgow as the Chairman associated with the preparations is transparent. There of Ways and Means, who preceded you in the Chair, but can be no more lucrative contracts for friends and I, as a former Secretary of State for Scotland and, cronies. indeed, a Scottish Member of Parliament, am delighted that the United Kingdom Government have brought Leading by example also means having proper domestic COP26 to Scotland—to Glasgow.As we all know,Glasgow policies in place, just as the Scottish Government have. is a great city that can handle this event, and It is a terrible state of affairs that we are still awaiting notwithstanding the issues that people have rightly raised the heat and building strategy and we are still awaiting about what is achieved at the conference, I believe the hydrogen strategy.It should be noted that the Scottish Glasgow has every ability to host an event of such scale Government have a 5 GW hydrogen production target, and to do it in a memorable way. which is the same as the UK’s, so Scotland is showing much more ambition. Again, Scotland has a transport I do hope that we will see the new President of the decarbonisation plan in place for a net zero target of United States attend the event. I had the rather 2035, but we are still awaiting the UK Government’s dubious duty of welcoming the previous President of transport decarbonisation plan. the United States to Scotland on one of his visits to the United Kingdom. At that event, he told me that he Without these key policies, there is no net zero strategy, loved Scotland, but very unfortunately he did not follow and policies without funding commitments are effectively it through during his presidency by removing the punitive redundant. While there is a 10-point plan with a figure tariffs on whisky. of 600,000 heat pump installations a year, this means Despite some of the remarks that we have just heard nothing without a funded programme to back it up. from the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun That programme needs to be aligned with energy-efficient (Alan Brown), I hope that we will see the full engagement installations and should start targeting off-grid properties. of the Scottish Government in a positive way for this There are 3,000 deaths a year in the UK related to fuel event. When we face a global climate emergency, the poverty, so the UK Government also need to invest far cost of the Lib Dem Scottish conference in 2013 is not more directly in energy efficiency and demonstrate a net really the issue of the moment that we need to be zero transition that will not push up energy bills and addressing or hearing about. I want to see the Scottish create more fuel poverty. Government engage positively. I was encouraged to When it comes to transport, Scotland can demonstrate hear the First Minister of Scotland addressing businesses the world’s first hydrogen double-decker buses. The in relation to COP and the opportunities that it would Scottish Government have facilitated orders for electric bring. That is the tone that we want to hear. Also, it is and hydrogen buses from Alexander Dennis Ltd. Where not a competition between policies pursued by the 947 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 948

[David Mundell] (David Mundell). My immediate priority is to ensure that the Government have the wherewithal to deliver this. Scottish Government and those pursued by the UK They have many key priorities at the moment, not least Government: I welcome the progress that has been made the recovery from covid, economic rebuilding, consolidating on many fronts in Scotland, but that does not mean that Brexit and establishing the UK’s new place in global everything is right. Likewise, there are many positive affairs, but what could be more important to that fourth aspects within the UK, but within Scotland, we could priority than COP26, which represents such a critical do better. opportunity for the world to address the increasingly The principal point that I want to make in my severe impacts of the climate crisis? The hon. Member contribution is that I want to see widespread public and for Bristol North West (Darren Jones), the Chair of the civic engagement flowing from this event. I think most Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, of us in the Chamber are familiar with major events described it as a “crucial milestone”, and my right hon. taking place where there is little or no public engagement. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Philip Dunne) said: The circus comes to town; all the important people “The eyes of the world will be on us”. arrive; they are all cordoned off; they are in their cars; The UK has often taken the lead on climate issues, and there are all the events, yet the average member of and this presidency is a chance to push for ambitious the public has little engagement or connection with commitments from partners across the globe. I personally them. Under my analysis, COP26 will not be a complete favour the idea of a fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty, success unless we have engaged extensively with the embodying treaty commitments to limit fossil fuels wider public. The clear message is that each and every coming out of the ground or to bind states to offsetting one of us owns climate change. Each and every one of carbon capture and storage. We already have a good us makes a difference, and if we exclude members of the record on that in our own country, and it is important public—if they do not feel part of this event, and it feels that our own policies reinforce the UK’s commitment distant and remote from them—we are not going to to this work. Examples include our commitments to achieve that. international marine reserves, which promote carbon I am very hopeful that my constituency will benefit capture; to agricultural reform and rewilding; to our net economically from the overflow of guests and those zero target; and to insulating homes and reducing carbon attending requiring accommodation. That, of course, emissions from transport. Incidentally, we are going to will be positive, but I also want there to be engagement have one of the biggest hydrogen production green with communities and groups that are already interested, energy hubs in Essex, at the new freeport that was and are themselves already very active on this front. For announced last week. example, on Friday I am hosting an online event with a The key to success in the past has been the significant community group called Tweed Green, in Peebles in my effort and resources expended on conferences like these, constituency, to which members will come with all sorts long before the conference itself. I was reminded by my of questions and issues: some about the climate emergency hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling and what this Parliament is doing, and some on more (Tom Tugendhat), the Chair of the Foreign Affairs local issues. They want to be part of this event, and we Committee, a little while ago that the French employed need to provide a way of their doing so. There are also a former Prime Minister, Laurent Fabius, and he had lots of great local projects, such as the hydro scheme 12 months and 200 diplomats at his disposal to support that has been run by the Keir, Penpont, and Tynron the preparation for the Paris COP in 2015. I very much local trust. We have lots of local examples, and I am sure congratulate the COP26 President, my right hon. Friend every Scottish Member could stand up in this Chamber the Member for Reading West (), on his and cite those examples. We want to see that level of appointment and on being given a Cabinet-level role for engagement. his COP presidency. He is wholly devoted to it, but it is Of course, there are challenges, and we have to confront vital that he has a team with both the resources and the those challenges. I have more onshore wind turbines clout, not just to bring our international partners together, either in situ or in planning in my constituency, and just involving many Foreign Office resources, but to ensure because, for example, people wish to oppose such that the Government Departments work together to developments does not make them anti-COP or anti-dealing deliver on our own targets and our own work. with climate change. My plea to the COP26 President—I I serve on the Public Accounts Committee, and we will be very interested in his concluding remarks—is to had to report that the net zero target was not effectively engage the public of Scotland: engage civic Scotland, embedded in policy making on a cross-Whitehall basis, engage stakeholders, and engage young people. I believe so I ask my right hon. Friend: what is the machinery of Scotland wants to play its part in making this a huge government that is going to back him up and support success. I do not in any way diminish the challenges that his work in the run-up to COP26? Wehave been expecting have already been raised by other speakers about what a written ministerial statement, and we still expect it. I is achieved within the conference arena: if we achieve have been invited to guest on the Environmental Audit nothing there, that will of course mean that the event Committee tomorrow, and I expect I will press him on has not succeeded. However, to conclude, I reiterate this subject then if he does not want to answer that that in my view, the event will not have succeeded unless question in the debate this evening. The question is: we engage with the people of Scotland. how much real clout does the machinery of government give the him to deliver this very substantial and defining 5.44 pm task for the Government? Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): As my right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow pointed It is a great pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the out, the Select Committee system in this House is Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale already getting well prepared. Three Chairs of Committees 949 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 950 have commented already in this debate,and the Committees Cumbria; the £27 billion road building programme; the are linking their inquiries. The Transport Committee is freezing of fuel duty for the 10th year; the approach looking at zero-emission vehicles, the Treasury Committee whereby air passenger duty is apparently to be reduced; has been working on decarbonisation and green finance, the absence of serious climate action in the Budget; and one of the key summit issues, and the Science and the lack of a guarantee that measures such as the super Technology Committee is looking at the potential for deduction tax break will not be available for high-carbon hydrogen to meet the UK’snet zero target. The Committees investments. The list goes on, and with a record such as are also demonstrating their flexibility and willingness that it is no wonder we are off course to meet both our to collaborate, and I am delighted that they are coming fourth and fifth carbon budgets. Not only that, but of together in this way, effectively to form a kind of informal course those budgets are based on an 80% emission committee on COP26 to scrutinise the work of the reduction target by 2050, not net zero. No wonder, Government in the run-up to the COP summit. either, that the latest annual progress report from the I have to say that this is also an effort to limit the Committee on Climate Change highlighted that the demands on my right hon. Friend the COP President’s Government have failed on 17 of their 21 progress time so that there is no duplication of evidence taking indicators and that just two out of 31 key policy milestones by different Committees. As I say, he is coming before have been met. the Environmental Audit Committee tomorrow. I ask When presented with facts such as those, Ministers him what commitments he can make to the programme like to say, “We have reduced emissions by over 40% since of other meetings that I, as Chairman of the Liaison 1990”, but let us have some honesty here, because that is Committee, am setting out and that other Committees true only of territorial emissions, not imported emissions. are setting out, in order that we have a coherent programme It has been achieved only by offshoring so much of our of scrutiny of the work of the Government up to manufacturing—in essence, outsourcing our emissions COP26. to countries such as China. As well as greater ambition The big challenge here is for the Government to put at home, we must also use our presidency to redouble themselves in the global picture on the most important our diplomatic engagements to reinforce the need for global summit we are likely to see them undertake in strong Paris-aligned climate ambition. this Parliament; there will be G7s, G8s and NATOs, but On the arrangements for Glasgow itself, I appreciate nothing is going to cap this. This is the defining COP that discussions are still ongoing about whether it will summit that has to crown the achievement of the Paris be physical attendance, online or a hybrid mode, but summit. I very much hope that this will be seen as a however the negotiations take place, everything must be British diplomatic success and not as something that done to ensure full and equal participation of the global other countries have had to sort out for us. My right south and of civil society.That, of course, means equitable hon. Friend has an enormous task. I congratulate him access to vaccines, and on that I echo the words of the again on his appointment and wish him all the very Chair of the BEIS Committee. Countries in the global best. He should come to the Select Committees, perhaps south have already expressed concern in response to the privately, if he needs us to add pressure in order to call by António Guterres for preparatory negotiations ensure that he can deliver the task that the Prime to take place online. Any online negotiations must be Minister has given him. inclusive and all countries must have the technical and financial support they need to participate on equal 5.51 pm terms. (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green) [V]: I am Moving on to outcomes, the UN is reporting that delighted to follow the hon. Member for Harwich and only 75 countries so far have brought forward new North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin), all the more so NDC commitments and that together they would reduce because I think he just said he supported the proposal emissions by only about 1% by 2030, which is far from for a fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty—a new commitment the 45% recommended by the Intergovernmental Panel to leave fossil fuels in the ground. If I heard him right, I on Climate Change. We are on course for climate would be delighted to work with him to help to achieve catastrophe, yet a successful COP26 will not be defined that. by emission targets alone, crucial though those are; it COP26 is arguably the most crucial global summit in will also mark the start of a process to set a specific recent history, so it will be vital that the COP26 unit target for climate finance beyond 2025. On this, the receives all the support and funding necessary to deliver Government talk a good game, with the Prime Minister a successful COP,even if that goes beyond the £260 million repeatedly boasting that the UK has doubled its it has already been allocated. The world is watching and commitment to £11.6 billion, up from £5.8 billion. the stakes could not be higher. I welcome the fact that While it is true that the UK performs well in some the COP26 President-designate is now full-time, able to areas—for example, providing the majority through dedicate all his efforts towards the COP, but if we are to grants and allocating 50% to adaptation— all is not as achieve the results we so desperately need the whole of it seems, as is so often the case with this Government. Government needs to be oriented towards a successful The entirety of the UK’s climate finance commitment outcome from the negotiations. That means greater comes from the aid budget, which the Chancellor is consistency and ambition across Departments if we are cutting from 0.7% to 0.5%. That is despite the fact that, to show credible climate leadership, and it means having under the UN framework convention on climate change, the plan that the Public Accounts Committee clearly climate finance was negotiated by all parties in good identified as conspicuous by its absence. faith as new and additional finance. It was understood It also means addressing the weakness and incoherence to be additional to the long-standing commitment to of our domestic climate policy: the Government’s failure ODA, not taken from money that developing countries to call in the recent decision to allow a new coalmine in were set to achieve anyway. Not only is this morally 951 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 952

[Caroline Lucas] On emissions, we have already heard from many speakers about the need for a big increase in the number wrong, it will also undermine the trust that we so of countries submitting more ambitious NDCs. We all desperately need as we head towards the negotiations in accept that, and I am sure that the COP26 President is November. working for it. The key thing that I am interested in is As an immediate step, I call on the Government to the plan to improve it. How will we try to achieve it reverse the cut to the aid budget and to ensure that the materially? Even if we succeed in getting lots of countries finance is genuinely new and additional. As COP26 to sign up for more ambitious net zero targets, which I host, the UK must also call on other countries to bring am confident we will be able to do, and can back that up forward new and additional commitments to climate with concrete plans, in essence, in a few years’ time we finance, including at least 50% allocated to adaptation; will be going around this merry-go-round again. I am grants, not loans; and a significant increase in the therefore very interested in the COP26 President’s plans finance provided to the least developed countries and for how we will achieve that. small island developing states. Just 3% of climate finance To follow on from the remarks made by the hon. reported to the OECD for 2017-18 went to small island Member for Brighton, Pavilion, who talked at length developing states—countries that are on the frontline of about the need for finance and mobilising climate finance, the climate emergency. about which she is completely right, what are our plans Loss and damage is an overlooked area of the Paris to mobilise the asset of the ? There is agreement but is profoundly important for vulnerable huge good will in the City of London, as I know countries—so important that failing to address this through the work that I do with the all-party parliamentary pivotal issue could lead to the collapse of the talks at group on bankers for net zero and as chair of the COP26. Currently, no financial support has been agreed all-party parliamentary group for renewable and sustainable for loss and damage, despite the most vulnerable countries energy—PRASEG—and through dealing with a great having to take on the debt to deal with consequences of deal of liaison among APPGs, the COP26 President global heating. In January this year, Mozambique was and the Government on COP26. There is a lot of hit by Storm Eloise, which killed more than 1,000 enthusiasm, but how will the Government take that people, destroyed 100,000 homes and flooded thousands enthusiasm and positive energy and turn it into results of hectares of crops. At that point, the country had yet on a global scale? Let me quote the Lord Mayor of to recover from Cyclones Idai and Kenneth in 2019, London, William Russell, at a talk I was at recently. He which pushed its public debt to almost 110% of its said that the message should be: GDP. “go green or go home”. We cannot let vulnerable countries be pushed further That is the message we should take to the City of into debt by the climate crisis. The UK must put its London and to others. pre-existing position, which has been to block loss and On carbon sequestration, many experts—I notice that damage, to one side. It must use its role as a neutral experts are back in fashion—have said that in order for COP26 president to thoughtfully and effectively facilitate us to achieve net zero by 2050, even if we decarbonise at a way to progress action on loss and damage finance the rate we all know we need to decarbonise at, it may and to stand in solidarity with communities that are be necessary to take something in the region of suffering the worst impacts right now. At the heart of 120 gigatonnes to 160 gigatonnes of carbon out of the COP26 is the issue of climate justice, and as summit atmosphere. I had to look up what a gigatonne was. I hosts, we will be judged on our ability to deliver it. knew that it sounded very big but I needed to work out how big. For information, it is 1 billion metric tonnes. Indeed, a metric tonne is 1,000 kg. That is a lot of carbon. 5.57 pm Getting the technology and achieving the target will Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): It is a require a huge amount of private sector innovation for pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion technologies that have not yet even been invented in (Caroline Lucas). If I recall correctly, Ronald Reagan many respects. Government can help. In the United had a quote on his desk in the White House that was States, there is tax relief on carbon removals investment, along the lines of, “There’s no limit to what you can for example. But we may need to do things to sponsor achieve or how far you can go, as long as you don’t care carbon removal markets and try to help consumers and who takes the credit.” I see the role of the COP26 businesses direct their spending on capital to new President as quite unusual in politics, because what the technology. One example is called Zero Exchange, which President, his team, this Government and this country is led by Daniel Korski, Ryan Shea and Lichelle Wolmarans. have to do is get the world to agree to a set of different There may be other examples, but this is one way of things along our achieved aims, and not care who gets providing a carbon removal market. These are the sorts the credit but get the job done. I have huge confidence of innovative ideas that I would like to see championed in the COP26 President and his ability to do that. at COP so that we can funnel capital that we know is I will not repeat what has been said about NDCs and there and harness that enthusiasm and energy into various issues by other Members,who have made thoughtful positive results to take carbon out of the atmosphere. speeches. I will identify three key areas in which I would That does not get enough attention. like to hear the Government’s and the President’s plans Finally, on rare metals, up until the renaissance, human on where we are going and how exactly we will achieve beings used about six or seven metals. In the industrial our aims not just as a country but as a world in trying to revolution, we used about a dozen. Now, with rare deal with this global problem. Those three areas are metals included, we are using in the region of 89 or 90. carbon emissions, carbon sequestration and rare metals, Why am I talking about rare metals in this debate? mining and manufacturing. Rare metals such as lithium, which is key for batteries 953 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 954 for electric cars and wind turbines; niobium, which 6.8 pm helps us make energy-efficient vehicles and steel structures; Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con) [V]: I am delighted and coltan, which is a key ingredient for mobile phones, to participate in this debate on estimates for COP26. do not come out of thin air. They come out of the Two years ago, as interim energy Minister, I helped to ground. Most of those metals are not located in this secure for the United Kingdom and Italy their joint bid country or even in Europe. The United States has a bit, to host COP26. I am delighted to see the progress that but China has a significant amount and they are also has already been made by my right hon. Friend the found in sub-Saharan African and South America. Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma). I want to I have two questions related to rare metals and mining. put on record my admiration for him personally. Having This is something that none of us likes to think about, worked extremely hard to climb the ladder of ministerial because we like to think of the green revolution as entirely office to become a Secretary of State, he has decided to clean, but, in order to make the green things, we will relinquish that office to become solely COP26 President. have to get some of those rare metals out of the ground. That demonstrates his commitment to the necessary The first of my questions is an environmental one and values and the outcome that is needed from COP—he is concerns the standards of that mining. We must make not merely a simple politician but has put himself in the sure that those standards are as high as possible so that place of a true statesman. we do not cause environmental damage, which, sadly, is If this COP is to be a success, as was the COP in Paris the sometimes the case. The second is a geopolitical five years ago, it is absolutely right that we need to be one. Are we content for this to happen just in other driven by values and outcomes. It is quite clear that net countries, or are we willing to do some of the heavy-lifting zero by 2050 will slowly—perhaps more quickly—become ourselves, and, indeed, to finance it as well? the goal that comes out of COP26. I was the Minister 6.5 pm who signed the net zero target into law on 27 June 2019, having led the debate in Parliament. It is easy to say that Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): It is a pleasure to follow net zero should be legislated for, but since then I have the hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim seen the demonstration of the UK’s potential to lead Afolami). He is absolutely right: negative emission this debate and to enact change. We have seen France, technologies have not been developed yet, and yet they Japan, South Korea, New Zealand and, hopefully, the are vital for us to get to net zero. United States sign up to net zero by 2050, with China Hosting COP26 in the UK, especially as it marks the potentially signing up to net zero by 2060. We emit beginning of the implementation of the Paris agreement, 1% of the world’s global emissions, yet this is where the is a great honour. We are asked significantly to increase UK can achieve and succeed in demonstrating that, as our ambition and achieve what we promised in 2016—let the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) mentioned, us remember that we now have to get to net zero, not we can lead by example. just to 80% of emissions. To achieve net zero, we need to ensure that COP26 is The UK has a historic responsibility for causing the not just a high-level summit with similarly high-level ecological and climate emergency. We must now use our lofty ambitions just from Government. If it is to deliver power on the international stage to get to net zero, change, it needs to be about a whole-of-society approach, address the nature crisis, and lead by example globally. which means taking a long-term strategic position, not We must push for the strongest possible ambition from merely talking about what is happening in 2021. To put our international partners, but we cannot do that if our it into context, just 4% of the UK population even own credibility is undermined. Therefore, we need clear know what net zero means. That demonstrates the scale and ambitious domestic targets for which the Government of the challenge we face in reaching net zero. We need a can be held responsible immediately. Getting to net zero vision that can embrace the need for human behavioural in 29 years’ time means little if we cannot hold the change. This is where climate change policy 2.0 needs to Government to account in the meantime. We are, as we be carved out. I shall come on to talk about the have already heard, way off when it comes to hitting our technological and energy supply changes that we have own targets, so is the rest of the international community. seen when it comes to climate change policy, but we We must do better. now need to embrace the human dimension—we need not only to embrace humans’ hopes for change but COP26, as we have already heard, is not all about us. understand their fears and how those fears can be Island nations risk losing entire cultures to sea-level tackled in future. rises. New species risk going extinct every day that we allow illegal deforestations to continue. Every day that The UK has led on emission reductions in the G7: we we delay action, we get closer to new tipping points in have reduced emissions by 40% since 1990, despite our national ecosystem. We must make sure that the growing our overall economy by 70%. That demonstrates money we put into COP26 includes adequate support that we can ensure growth regardless of the need for for the global south, so that it has the same access and change. Between 2008 and 2018, we reduced emissions can participate as usual despite the pandemic. The UK by 28%, yet we have now we set a target of reducing Government must commit to offering visas to delegates emissions by 68% by 2030. That is a huge escalation in and accredited civil society from the global south. Every ambition, which is welcome but still a challenge. Of the year, hard-working, dedicated activists are turned away 28% reduction between 2008 and 2018, 56% of the from contributing to international climate policy. decrease was in energy supply. Make no mistake: that Furthermore, let us ensure that people from across the was the low-hanging fruit. UK, from across all backgrounds and from across all We now need to reach far higher to get to far more ages are involved in the preparation of this conference. difficult-to-reach sectors such as transport. Power and COP26 is a vital historic moment for international energy supply made up 66 million tonnes of the 496 million climate action; let us not waste it. tonnes that we emitted in 2018; transport made up 955 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 956

[Chris Skidmore] enhances our ability to be a strong manufacturing country, so that we bring back manufacturing to the United 115 million tonnes of that, yet its reduction between Kingdom, rather than seeing it go abroad. Key to that is 2008 and 2018 was just 3%. To achieve the reductions having affordable energy, especially for heavier industry. that we are going to need, we will have to embrace Manufacturing ought to be a key part of our levelling-up systems-wide policy making that embraces operational agenda, especially in the north of England; that would research and does not rely just on announcements and be incredibly welcome. speeches, which will not deliver policy change and will I have a bit of a concern about part of this debate not not allow for successful policy implementation. only here, but more broadly, and that relates to the First, we require a systems-wide change to Government Cumbrian coalmine. It is almost as though people are delivery. The COP President currently sits within the choosing wilfully to disregard the fact that this coal is Cabinet Office, which is right, but post COP we need a metallurgical coal—coking coal. The purpose of this net zero Department that unites all Departments across coal is for use in the steel industry.There are no economically Whitehall. We also need to embrace partnership working. viable alternatives to the use of this coal. If we do not COP26 will not be a success just through the efforts of use it, we do not have a steel industry. It is not thermal the Cabinet Office and my right hon. Friend the Member coal. We have a commitment to get rid of thermal coal for Reading West, no matter how phenomenal a job I from the system, but we ought to recognise the importance believe he is doing. I follow his Twitter feed every of metallurgical coal. The mine in Cumbria will be morning, noon and night and it is amazing what he is supporting 500 jobs directly and about 2,000 indirectly. achieving, but he is one man. We can do so much more Much of this coal will be used in the United Kingdom, by embracing other institutions, such as universities, so when we set our faces against the Cumbrian coalmine, local authorities and devolved mayoralties. We should we are setting our faces against a significant number of also focus on how we can create net zero regions, as I jobs, which are so welcome in the north of England. know we are doing, to drive systems change for the future. Universities stand ready—as a former Minister Some people approach carbon emissions almost as for Universities and chair of the all-party group on though by exporting important manufacturing jobs we universities, I know that there is group of universities can reduce emissions in the United Kingdom. But when for COP26—and they will be at the forefront of delivering we export the emissions, the jobs and the manufacturing, on research when it comes to achieving net zero. the carbon does not respect national boundaries; it will still have an impact on climate change across the world. On research and how we reach the scale that we need We have to recognise that the United Kingdom has high to achieve for the future, we need to take a mission-based environmental standards, so having manufacturing here approach, in respect of not only societal adaptation and means less carbon is produced than if the same change but new science and innovation structures to manufacturing were happening overseas. We ought to deliver net zero. The Prime Minister has spoken of spend a little bit more time celebrating the fact that UK “moonshots”, and we can frame COP26 and net zero manufacturing has such high standards. by using the moonshot approach. The Government’s 10-point plan has set out ambitions for what we can When we think about how we provide energy to deal achieve in the next 10 years; 600,000 heat pumps by with climate change, we often focus on wind turbines 2028 is a great target, but we need to focus on wider and solar energy, but we ought to think a little more ambitions, including expanding hydrogen supply. We about the contributions from the nuclear industry. I need to be setting sector-wide approaches that are ambitious, have always thought about the baseload supply that the but can be realised and delivered through structures—even nuclear industry can provide. I understand now that legislation. That would enable these ambitions to be the proper term we should be using is “firm energy”—the driven in a really tough way, rather than just being energy that we can reliably use in manufacturing and policy announcements. other sectors, having the certainty that the supply will be there, no matter what. It is also a green energy. The Finally, we need dedicated climate change research carbon footprint of nuclear power stations is about the and technological funds that are internationally based same size as for solar, for COP26. We are hosting the G7 this year, and we have huge international ambitions for the United Kingdom. so it ought to be seen as a very long-term commitment Why not place our faith in science, innovation and to energy supply, and it will deal with concerns over research by creating new funds that the UK can lead to carbon. Can my right hon. Friend, in dealing with this get other countries behind us and deliver on net zero for important issue through his presidency of COP26, provide the future? any certainty to the nuclear industry? It is important that the United Kingdom has a tempo of building these power stations: the industry provides high-quality jobs, 6.15 pm and there is great investment in skills, which we need to Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con): It is a pleasure to retain in the sector. After all, the nuclear industry will follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood provide firm green energy, whatever the weather, the (Chris Skidmore), especially as he finished on such a time of day or the day of the year. key point about how advances in technology can help Probably the one energy source that is better than us to deal with the immense challenge that we face. It is nuclear fission is nuclear fusion, so I congratulate the also incredibly welcome that COP26 is happening in Government on their ambitious plans to develop the Glasgow, in our United Kingdom. spherical tokamak for energy production fusion prototype. When we think of the environmental agenda and dealing This prototype is intended to develop a commercially with carbon dioxide emissions, we must be aware that viable fusion reactor. COP26 ought to be about not just we have to do it in a way that not only enables but the things we cannot do or that we must constrain but 957 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 958 being ambitious about the technological advances that it off. The French Government showed themselves capable. we can look forward to in future. This prototype can be They delivered. The evidence given to the BEIS Committee part of that. suggests that the UK Government will miss the train In the north-west of England, in particular, there is a altogether. wealth of talent in the nuclear sector,whether in Cheshire, The Committee was told that the diplomatic effort of Lancashire or Cumbria. Wehave the Institute for Materials the UK amounted to the Foreign Secretary and the Research at the University of Bolton. The University of permanent secretary in that Department sending a few Manchester has an amazing history and legacy in the letters to diplomatic staff to remind them about it. It nuclear, or atomic, sector going back as far as John was a note to remind them to do their homework, as if Dalton and then Ernest Rutherford, and now there is its the diplomats needed that. The previous COP26 President continuing expertise with the Dalton Nuclear Institute. told the Committee of the chaos and infighting in We have a wealth of talent, and we ought to be focused Whitehall that bedevilled her attempts to get anything far more on technological solutions to concerns such as done, although the CEO of the COP26 unit assured the climate change and carbon emissions. What could be Committee that everything was hunky-dory now and finer to announce at the COP26 summit than that the that they are working night and day to deliver. future of green energy will deliver on our levelling-up I had a look at the COP26 team on the website, and agenda, using the talents of so many people across the there were a couple of folk from environmental think-tanks north-west, building on our heritage, and making Bolton and pressure groups in among the career civil servants, the location and the future of safe, reliable and abundant but there was also a former deputy head of press at energy by siting the spherical tokamak prototype there? Tory HQ—now policy adviser to the COP26 President— and a former Tory , who is now the 6.22 pm strategy director. Then there are a couple of bankers Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP) and a businessman bringing his experience of emerging [V]: I thank the hon. Member for Bristol North West markets, but that lack of focus on environmental and (Darren Jones) and his colleagues for enabling this climate change expertise does not inspire confidence. important debate to be held today.I also thank Members I have no doubt that these civil servants will do their from across the House for their contributions. They jobs efficiently and well, and I have no doubt that the have made some excellent points about the Government’s diplomats engaged as regional ambassadors will deliver plans for COP26, with many focusing on the lack of on what they are asked, but they need political leadership clarity around the efforts made so far on the road to and the investment of political capital, and that is COP26 and to our critical net zero targets. We have missing. If I may, I point to the evidence that Lord Deben heard repeated calls for the Government to outline their gave to the BEIS Committee in July last year, speaking proposed path to net zero, not just their targets, as was as chair of the Climate Change Committee. Responding suggested by the Chair of the Environmental Audit to a question about whether sufficient progress was Committee, the right hon. Member for Ludlow (Philip being made towards the net zero target, he said: Dunne). Certainly, speaking as a representative from a “We are clearly not. In almost every sector, we are failing…The Scottish constituency, the continued uncertainty over Government are not on track to meet the fourth and fifth carbon their plan for the involvement and participation of budget”. devolved Administrations in the delegation, as outlined He went on to say that measures were “not taken by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and quickly enough” and that the Government Loudoun (Alan Brown), seems unforgivable given the “have simply not done the radical things that need to be done.” lead that Scotland is taking on climate issues. The thing to really focus on is the Government’s That is fairly unequivocal. He went on to say that using planning for COP26. If that planning exists, there is, I the pandemic as an excuse for inaction, rather than a am afraid, little evidence for it. There may be a few “springboard” for action would be unforgivable. We are targets floating about, but there are no details of the sliding down that slope from which there may be no strategies, no plans, and no route map to reaching all return, and we are still waiting for Government action. those targets. There may be a nationally determined Even the arrangements for the summit in Glasgow contribution, which sounds impressively whizzy, but are opaque. We have a bald and unconvincing headline there is none of the real grunting heave of an effort Budget figure with no more to it. We have an agreement needed to move us along towards any kind of emissions with Police Scotland that there will be no detriment to reduction. There is so little ambition, drive, vision or its budget, although some of us remember that the political capital being expended. The motions are being same was promised for the Gleneagles G8 in 2005, but well rehearsed. If going through the motions was what Scotland still got left with that bill. There appears to be was needed, we could all sleep soundly in our beds, but little if any consultation, engagement or interaction the truth is that we are facing the nightmare of a crisis with the Scottish Government over this event, which worse than the pandemic—it is unimaginable, but the will be on their patch. scenario is that terrifying. The UK has a Government While I am seeking clarity, I hope the COP26 President playing shadow puppets with the issues. Perhaps worst will see his way clear to elaborating on the arrangements of all, the UK is supposed to be leading world discussions with MCI over accommodation. There appears to be in a few months’ time. some exclusivity being claimed for that organisation, As COP21 showed in creating the Paris agreement, and the booking website appears to suggest that using delivery on an ambitious programme and a visionary any other accommodation provider in Scotland is likely agenda requires the agenda and the programme first, to result in some loss to the customer. I am sure he will but it also needs a whole of Government effort and a agree that that unintentional slur should be corrected at comprehensive and dedicated diplomatic effort to pull the earliest possible opportunity. 959 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 960

[Deidre Brock] As the hosts of the summit, the Government are presented with not only an unrivalled opportunity to demonstrate Will the COP26 President elaborate on the arrangements climate leadership in the coming months, but a solemn with MCI? How will it make a profit, and will any of responsibility to do all they can to maximise global that profit be heading back to the Government? Will ambition and to secure agreement on a road map for international visitors be getting surcharged for MCI’s delivering on that ambition and the Paris agreement. services? Furthermore, has MCI been given what amounts There is a wide range of distinct issues on which to a Government monopoly with the arrangement that further progress is essential ahead of November,including it entered into? Will he publish all the tendering documents the nature crisis and biodiversity loss, and what more and other correspondence around that arrangement? must be done to green the financial system and find The operation of the summit is one thing; the fight agreement on robust article 6 rules, but given the time against climate chaos is another. Here we are approaching available to me, I will touch on three specific issues that the setting of the sixth carbon budget, with COP26 have been a feature of today’s debate. The first is following close behind, and still we do not know what mitigation. the Government’s intentions are. We still do not have a As my hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee really clear idea of what they hope to get out of the and others remarked, in its first assessment of global summit. The Chancellor’s Budget lacked any real climate pledges ahead of COP26, published 10 days ago, commitment to environmental action or action to address the UNFCCC made it clear that the world is currently climate chaos, and it seems like the efforts on COP26 on course only for emissions reductions of 1% by the will match that lack of ambition all too well. end of this critical decade, not the 45% reduction that is The truth is that the current UK Government just do required to keep alive the hope of limiting heating to not care enough about the issue to want to address it. 1.5°C. The COP26 President knows that we would have They are so blinkered to the probable effects of the liked the Government to be even more ambitious, but changing climate that they will stumble blindly on, there is no question but that the UK’s NDC, now hoping that it all goes well in the end; so tone-deaf to submitted, and the 2030 target of omissions reductions the pleas of climate activists that they cannot see the of least 68% are ambitious and will be extremely challenging benefit of copying the French and putting in the early to deliver. As the summit’s host, the UK needs to be effort to get results. COP26 is on course to be an making the case forcefully, both publicly and privately, opportunity wasted, and it will be wasted simply because for a far greater level of ambition from others, so that the Government do not put in the effort. by November the world will have decisively closed the gap between our current temperature trajectory and where we need to be to realise the Paris agreement. 6.30 pm I hope that the COP26 President will update the Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): House on the efforts he is making, in particular to It is a pleasure to respond to this debate on behalf of ensure that large emitters that have not yet done so the Opposition. Given the importance of the subject, I submit ambitious NDCs in the near future, and on what hope it is the first of many over the next eight months. the Government are doing to compel recalcitrant nations, I start by commending my hon. Friend the Member in particular Australia, Japan, South Korea and Russia, for Bristol North West (Darren Jones), as well as the which have merely resubmitted existing NDCs, and right hon. Member for Ludlow (Philip Dunne) and the Brazil and Mexico, which have backtracked on their hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami) existing targets, to think again in the few months that for securing the debate and for their insightful contributions. remain until the summit. I also praise the powerful speeches made by others who The second issue is climate justice. As much as it participated. I will single out the hon. Member for increasingly defines our approach to climate here at Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), who spoke powerfully home, COP26 is not simply about the race to net zero about the need for participation on equal terms by all among advanced economies; it is also about delivering the parties at COP26; the hon. Member for Tonbridge on the principle of common but differentiated and Malling (Tom Tugendhat) and the right hon. Member responsibilities and making tangible progress on adaptation, for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore); the right hon. Member for loss and damage, and financial assistance. Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell, As I know the COP26 President is aware, this agenda who made an interesting point about the need for is a defining one for many African states, the most citizen engagement to realise the promise of the summit vulnerable developing countries and small island states. taking place in the UK; and the hon. Member for Those nations were essential to the international consensus Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin), who— on which the success at Paris was built, and their active much to my delight—made the case not just for reducing consent is imperative for a successful outcome in Glasgow. demand for fossil fuels but, quite rightly, on the imperative With only limited progress made in this area last year, to scale down their supply as a matter of urgency if we with trust in short supply and with concerns heightened are to address the climate crisis. by decisions such as the cut to the UK’s overseas aid As the first real test of the landmark Paris agreement, budget, this must be a diplomatic priority over the next the COP26 summit in Glasgow in November will be a eight months. Again, perhaps in his closing remarks the critical moment in the fight against runaway global COP26 President could tell the House what more the heating. We all have a stake in ensuring that it is a Government intend to do in that period to demonstrate success, and in that spirit I reiterate the Opposition’s solidarity and support for those on the frontline of the desire to play a constructive role in the process and put climate crisis, particularly in bringing forward finance on the record our support for whatever financial resources on loss and damage and in meeting. and then surpassing, are required to effectively plan and deliver the conference. the US$100 billion a year. 961 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 962

According to the OECD, less than $80 billion has COP26 is the first of only two ratchet points in this crucial been pledged so far, with only $12 billion taking the decade. The decisions that are made in the lead-up to it form of grants rather than loans. The UK’s record in and hopefully at it, in terms of extra ambition, will set that regard is a good one, but perhaps the COP26 the trajectory for climate action up to 2030. President could remark on whether he sees loans as a Wecannotsquandertheopportunityfortransformational legitimate means to meet the target and whether he change that the summit presents. As the first country to thinks there is a need to rebalance loans towards grants industrialise, the world’s sixth-largest economy and its to make up the $100 billion. host, we cannot fail in our duty to do what is necessary My third point is about domestic policy. There is an to deliver success at that summit. That means threading obligation on the House to engage properly with the climate throughout our diplomatic efforts: our approach climate diplomacy required to deliver a successful COP26. to the G7 and G20, the Work Bank, the International At the same time, as hosts, we cannot overlook the Monetary Fund’s annual meetings, the plethora of impact of domestic decisions on the outcome of the international events that will take place over the next conference. As Opposition Members have argued time eight months and our economic recovery from the and again, the UK will not be able to play its full part in coronavirus pandemic, with resources to match. I will building and sustaining the requisite momentum ahead finish on this,Mr Deputy Speaker.It means the President—I of COP26 if we are not seen to lead by example. Yet, know he is committed to his agenda—and his agenda whether it is acquiescing to the opening of a new deep having the necessary status within Government to deliver coalmine in Cumbria— all that he needs to do at home and abroad. Chris Green: That coal is vital for the steel industry. If we do not produce it domestically, we import it from 6.40 pm abroad. How does that influence the hon. Gentleman’s COP26 President (Alok Sharma): Climate change is decision? We could have 2,500 jobs in the UK, but the the biggest challenge we face as a global community carbon emissions are the same either way. and we know that it does not take time off. Year after year, the world is experiencing the increasingly damaging Matthew Pennycook: The hon. Gentleman is correct effects of a rise in global temperatures. Last year was, that we will need coking coal for UK steel for some on a par with 2016, the hottest year ever recorded. We years to come, but I am sure he will know that UK steel witnessed wildfires blaze across Australia, Europe and must go net zero by 2035 and less than 15% of the the US west coast. Wesaw flooding and locusts destroying coking coal produced, if that, will be used for UK steel. crops in east Africa. Earlier this year, Cyclone Ana hit What he misses is that the cumulative emissions from Fiji, sending thousands fleeing to evacuation centres. the mine will have a material impact on UK emissions, Through my work on COP26, I have witnessed the on our net zero target and on our credibility and devastating impacts of climate change: melting glaciers, reputation ahead of this crucial conference. I do not sea level rises, crop degradation, deforestation and pollution think the business case, let alone the emissions reduction choking some of the world’s greatest cities. I have spoken case, stacks up. to the communities on the frontline of the fight against The coalmine in Cumbria is just one example. By climate change. I have spoken to them about how their allowing UKEF to provide financial support for overseas lives have been disrupted, how their livelihoods are fossil fuel projects when a consultation on ending the threatened, how their homes are at risk. We cannot go practice altogether is under way, or having a Budget, as on as we are. many speakers have said in this debate, in which climate I thank the Chair of the Business, Energy and Industrial was, frankly, an afterthought—many other examples Strategy Committee, the hon. Member for Bristol North have been cited by hon. Members—the Government West (Darren Jones), for opening this debate on COP26, continue to fall short when it comes to domestic policy. which we all want to see as a decisive and positive Our credibility as COP26 hosts requires the Government moment in the battle against climate change. He spoke not only to bring forward, before 1 November, a with great eloquence, as have other right hon. and hon. comprehensive plan for achieving net zero but to take Members. I want to thank my hon. Friends the Members concrete steps now to get on track for that legally for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat), for binding target, to ensure that decarbonisation and a Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) and for Hitchin and green recovery are a top priority as we ease coronavirus Harpenden (Bim Afolami) for their very kind words. I restrictions and rebuild our economy, and to cease taking also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich decisions such as the one cited by the hon. Member for and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin) and other colleagues Bolton West (Chris Green) that expose our country to for their offers of support on the road to COP26. I also charges of hypocrisy on the international stage ahead of thank the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich this critical summit. (Matthew Pennycook) for offering the Opposition’ssupport In responding to this very welcome debate, I hope the as we go forward. What we all agree is that this is an COP26 President will assure hon. and right hon. Members issue that unites us. It unites us in a common mission to that he understands the very real impact of domestic protect our planet and our people. policy choices on the summit and that he is personally doing Tackling climate change is a clear priority for the all he can to ensure the Government take the steps necessary Government. We were the first major economy in the to put their house in order in the months that remain. world to legislate for net zero by 2050, and since 2000 we This decade is the crucial decade for climate action. have decarbonised our economy faster than any other As the landmark 1.5° report published by the UN some G20 country. Last year, the Prime Minister set out his years ago made clear: 10-point plan for a green industrial revolution: a plan to “The next few years are probably the most important in our cut emissions, but at the same time to create high-value history.” green jobs and turbocharge the economy. As colleagues 963 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 964

[Alok Sharma] Cabinet Committee, which sets the UK’s delivery of its climate plans. This means that there is full Cabinet on both sides of the House have acknowledged, we have oversight of policy and delivery. also set an ambitious and world-leading commitment to With regards to the resourcing of COP26, I can tell cut our own emissions by at least 68% by 2030 on the the House that there are over 200 posts in the COP26 base year of 1990. Of course now, through our presidency unit, and a number of Departments have also created of COP26, we have a unique opportunity to drive dedicated COP26 teams, including Her Majesty’sTreasury, global ambition but also action. the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Colleagues have raised a range of issues, and I would Strategy and the Department for Environment, Food like to focus on three of the key topics that have come and Rural Affairs. In the Foreign, Commonwealth and up. First, what are our aims for COP26? What are we Development Office, all heads of mission have been planning to achieve? Secondly, do we have the resources instructed by the Foreign Secretary to make delivery of to deliver? Thirdly, how are the practical planning and COP26 objectives a top priority. They are supported by logistics for the event progressing? our overseas network of over 430 climate and energy I can tell the House that we have four key aims for attachés. This is the world’s first diplomatic network COP26.We are asking nations: first, to commit to global dedicated to this agenda. net zero and, vitally, as colleagues have noted, to come I, of course, am now working full time on COP26. I forward with ambitious 2030 emissions reductions targets have personally engaged with Ministers in more than that align with net zero and keep the goal of limiting 50 Governments, including recently with India’s Prime average global temperature rises to 1.5° within reach; Minister Modi, US special envoy John Kerry, who was secondly, to set out plans urgently to protect communities here on Monday for discussions with us, and China’s and natural habitats and to help them to adapt to the special envoy for climate change, Minister Xie Zhenhua. damaging effects of climate change; thirdly, to agree Of course, we will work with like-minded colleagues funding to support these aims, making good on the around the world to deliver at Glasgow. I speak regularly $100 billion commitment in public finances that was with negotiating group chairs and chief negotiators, the agreed at Paris and, of course, also unleashing private United Nations, development banks, civil society groups finance. I agree with colleagues when they say that the and business. In recent weeks, I have also made a $100 billion figure is totemic. It is a matter of trust for number of international visits, where I have always felt vulnerable countries, for developing nations, and donor well supported by the UK Government network. All in countries must deliver on that. At the end of this all, we are well resourced for COP. month, we will be holding a climate and development event. It will be a ministerial event, attended by Ministers Turning to event logistics and planning, COP26, as from donor countries and from vulnerable countries, colleagues have noted, will be the biggest international but it will also involve civil society, and we will talk summit that the UK has ever hosted. It might be useful about the issues around climate finance. Fourthly, we if I explain to the House how the event will work. It will want to work to close off the outstanding elements of be delivered across two sites. The Scottish events campus the Paris rulebook and accelerate delivery of the Paris will be the United Nations-managed space. It will host goals through collaboration between Governments, the formal negotiations and will see delegates from businesses and civil society. 197 parties come together, alongside accredited observer My right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Philip organisations. Dunne) mentioned article 6. He is absolutely right; it is On the other side of the River Clyde, in the Glasgow one of the items that we will have to close off, as well as Science Centre, the UK Government will host a platform timelines for submitting further nationally determined for the general public and stakeholders to have their contributions, reporting transparency, and, of course, voices heard through events, exhibitions, workshops delivering through the energy transition, nature and and talks that promote dialogue, awareness, education transport campaigns that we are running as part of and commitments in the climate change space. As part COP26. of our preparations, Glasgow City Council has launched We have made progress to date. When the UK took a host city volunteer programme for COP26. I can tell on the COP presidency, less than 30% of global GDP the House that it has received an overwhelmingly positive was covered by net zero commitments. That figure stands response, with more than 7,000 applications to date, far at 70% today, and it includes Japan, South Korea, the exceeding the 1,000 volunteers that we need. USA and China. In December last year,the UK co-hosted My right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire, the Climate Ambition Summit, with 75 world leaders Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) will be pleased making concrete commitments to tackling climate change. to note that through the “Together for our planet” However, as hon. Members have noted, the UNFCCC campaign, which we launched last November, we will NDC synthesis report, which was published last month, work with partners to inspire the public across the UK demonstrates that we have much, much more to do when to be more engaged in climate action in the run-up to it comes to these near-term emissions reductions targets. COP26. I agree that we cannot have an event that is seen Colleagues have rightly asked if we have adequate by the general public as one where world leaders fly in resources dedicated to the task in hand. In summary, and fly out without any connection to the lives of the answer is yes. I am supported by the full weight of people across our country and, indeed, across the world. the British Government in this endeavour, with the I have also established an international civil society and Prime Minister leading from the front. He chairs the youth advisory council to support our COP preparations UK Government’s climate action strategy Cabinet and to ensure that we deliver an inclusive COP. We are Committee, which sets the UK’s path to net zero, and I progressing planning for an in-person event, with chair the UK Government’sclimate action implementation consideration of how we can best use technology to 965 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 966 increase inclusion and sustainability. In addition, robust countries around the world as we continue to grapple contingency plans for the range of covid-19 scenarios with this issue in the decades ahead. are being prepared, so that we can rapidly adapt were it COP26 is an opportunity for the UK not just to to prove necessary. persuade countries to do the right thing but to show My team has regular engagement with the Scottish them how we have done it ourselves.For all the criticisms—I Government and Scottish operational delivery partners will come back to some of those in a second—we have through a monthly operational delivery board. We have made great progress in the UK, especially in decarbonisation a joint delivery framework that has been agreed with of power, something that we can show other countries partners, including the Scottish Government, endorsing around the world how to achieve through our companies, an inclusive, all-UK approach to COP26. I have also our innovators and our engineers. invited Climate Change Ministers from the Scottish That could be helpful, I might suggest, for countries Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern that are perhaps dragging their feet a little on NDCs. Ireland Executive to participate in a devolved The shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Administrations group to ensure effective engagement Greenwich and Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook), and collaboration on COP26. I can confirm that the mentioned Australia. I should declare an interest, since next meeting is scheduled for later this month. I am married to an Australian and half my family lives A number of colleagues raised the issue of budgets. there. Australia needs to make more progress in its Discussions on costs for COP26 are ongoing and final climate commitments. While we are negotiating trade budgets are yet to be confirmed, but let me be very clear deals and perhaps showing the way in which companies, to the House that we will ensure that the right resources British and otherwise, can make a difference, we might are made available for this summit. Of course, we also want to couple that climate diplomacy with—that old want to deliver the event in a manner that represents phrase—industrial strategy as an opportunity for both value for money for the taxpayer, and we are following countries to take forward. robust procurement, assurance and peer review processes. The commitment today to climate aid was also very We have also secured sponsorship to take the cost important, and it will be important even after covid. I burden off the taxpayer. Our current principal partners know that it is difficult for wealthy nations, having are SSE, ScottishPower,Sky,Sainsbury’s, NatWest Group, borrowed so much money to deal with covid, to make National Grid and Hitachi, and we are actively seeking climate aid commitments, but there is no choice; we more. We will ensure that this event is safe, secure, have to do it. Indeed, poorer nations are in more sustainable and inclusive, and above all that it leaves a difficult situations than wealthier nations, even in the lasting legacy in the United Kingdom, allowing Glasgow context of covid spending. They are unable just to to flourish as the host city. borrow on international markets to pay, and it is therefore I very much welcome the interest from hon. Members more important than it was pre-pandemic for wealthy and Select Committees, and of course from all the nations to step up to their obligations. all-party parliamentary groups that have shown an Of course, a number of points were also made about interest in COP. I think that is right and proper, and I the UK’s own domestic performance, which is not directly have said that I will engage as much as I can with related to our delivery of COP26 but is important parliamentarians and all-party groups and work with symbolically, to show the world that, as president of them so that we can bring about success at COP26. COP,we lead with our action as well as our commitments. In conclusion, I do not underestimate the challenge Here I wish to comment on coalmines in the UK. I of delivering on all our goals for COP26. That is why we agree entirely that the coalmine proposed in Cumbria is are putting the full weight of the UK Government, not about heating. Indeed, we have enormous challenges working with partners around the world, behind our on decarbonising heat in the UK, be it hydrogen, heat efforts. I also want to see the green thread of climate pumps or heat networks, since we have so much progress action running deep through our G7 presidency and, to make and so little finance earmarked to make that indeed, through the range of international events that transition. The steel industry—a foundational industry will happen between now and COP26. As an international that I support very much in the UK—is going through a community, we must deliver at Glasgow, for the sake of period of transition and needs to go through the net zero our generation and future generations. transition. That would be a good example, albeit following the scrapping of the industrial strategy,of how Government 6.56 pm action, in partnership with industry, can facilitate the Darren Jones: I thank the COP26 President for his net zero transition even in difficult circumstances. I am full response, for which I am grateful in so many ways. I afraid that we seem to have been missing that opportunity. also thank the Backbench Business Committee and the There is clearly cross-party support in the House for Liaison Committee for granting this important debate, us to achieve our ambitions at COP26, including from and I am grateful for the contributions from so many Select Committees and all-party parliamentary groups. right hon. and hon. Members this evening. I thank my fellow Committee Chairs who spoke in the In the time allotted to me, I will reflect briefly on debate. Our Committees have agreed to collaborate on some of the major issues that came up. There was a this issue to ensure full coverage and support for the clear consensus across the House on the urgency of Government in the delivery of COP26. All of us look bridging the gap between political announcements and forward to supporting the President and his team and actual delivery in countries around the world. I was hopefully attending COP26 in Glasgow in November, encouraged to hear the COP26 President’s confirmation then celebrating the success of that conference as we of dedicated climate attachés in the Foreign Office. As move from a commitment in Paris to delivery on the many have said, the concept of a climate diplomat will ground. not go away after COP26; it will stay with us in many Question deferred (Standing Order No. 54(4)). 967 COP26 10 MARCH 2021 COP26 968

7 pm ESTIMATES 2021-22 (ARMY) VOTE A The Deputy Speaker put the deferred Questions (Standing Resolved, Order No. 54(5)). That, during the year ending with 31 March 2022, a number not exceeding 108,420 all ranks be maintained for Army Service and that numbers in the Reserve Land Forces be authorised for SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE 2020-21 the purposes of Parts 1, 3, 4 and 5 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 up to the maximum numbers set out in Votes A 2021-22, HC 1125.

DEPARTMENT FOR DIGITAL,CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ESTIMATES 2021-22 (AIR) VOTE A Resolved, Resolved, That, for the year ending with 31 March 2021, for expenditure That, during the year ending with 31 March 2022, a number by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport: not exceeding 36,400 all ranks be maintained for Air Force Service and that numbers in the Reserve Air Forces be authorised for the (1) further resources, not exceeding £2,092,692,000, be authorised purposes of Parts 1, 3, 4 and 5 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 up for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1227, to the maximum numbers set out in Votes A 2021-22, HC 1125.— (2) further resources, not exceeding £524,913,000, be authorised (Scott Mann.) for use for capital purposes as so set out, and (3) a further sum, not exceeding £2,246,268,000, be granted to ESTIMATES, EXCESSES, 2018-19 Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised [Relevant document: Sixth Report of the Committee of by Parliament. Public Accounts, Excess Votes 2018-19, HC 243.] Resolved, CABINET OFFICE: COP26 That, for the year ending with 31 March 2019: Resolved, resources, not exceeding £312,093,000, be authorised to make good excesses for use for current purposes as set out in Statement That, for the year ending with 31 March 2021, for expenditure of Excesses 2019-20 and Late Statement of Excesses 2018–19, by the Cabinet Office: HC 1229.—(Scott Mann.) (1) further resources, not exceeding £975,392,000, be authorised for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1227, ESTIMATES, EXCESSES, 2019-20 (2) further resources, not exceeding £76,060,000, be authorised [Relevant document: Forty-fourth Report of the Committee for use for capital purposes as so set out, and of Public Accounts, Excess Votes 2019-20, HC 1205.] (3) a further sum, not exceeding £798,643,000, be granted to Resolved, Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised That, for the year ending with 31 March 2020: by Parliament. (1) resources, not exceeding £8,280,607,000, be authorised to The Deputy Speaker then put the Questions on the make good excesses for use for current purposes as set out in outstanding Estimates (Standing Order No. 55). Statement of Excesses 2019-20 and Late Statement of Excesses 2018–19, HC 1229, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With the leave (2) resources, not exceeding £32,332,000, be authorised to make of the House, I will put the Question on motions 3 to 7 good excesses for use for capital purposes as set out in Statement together. of Excesses 2019-20 and Late Statement of Excesses 2018–19, HC 1229, and (3) a sum, not exceeding £3,711,646,000 be granted to Her SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 2020-21 (ARMY) Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund to make good excesses on the use of resources authorised VOTE A by Parliament as set out in Statement of Excesses 2019-20 and Resolved, Late Statement of Excesses 2018–19, HC 1229.—(Scott Mann.) That, during the year ending with 31 March 2021, modifications in the maximum numbers in the Reserve Land Forces set out in SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 2020-21 Supplementary Votes A 2020-21, HC 1126, be authorised for the purposes of Parts 1 and 3 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996. Resolved, That, for the year ending with 31 March 2021: (1) further resources,not exceeding £265,361,609,000, be authorised SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 2020-21 (AIR) for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1168, HC 1215, HC VOTE A 1227, HC 1231 and HC 1251, Resolved, (2) further resources, not exceeding £40,953,201,000, be authorised That, during the year ending with 31 March 2021, a number for use for capital purposes as so set out, and not exceeding 36,400 all ranks be maintained for Air Force (3) a further sum, not exceeding £174,422,672,000, be granted Service. to Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised by Parliament.—(Scott Mann.) ESTIMATES 2021-22 (NAVY) VOTE A Resolved, ESTIMATES, VOTE ON ACCOUNT 2021-22 That, during the year ending with 31 March 2022, a number Resolved, not exceeding 38,900 all ranks be maintained for Naval and Marine Service and that numbers in the Reserve Naval and That, for the year ending with 31 March 2022: Marines Forces be authorised for the purposes of Parts 1, 3, 4, (1) resources, not exceeding £345,682,776,000, be authorised, and 5 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 up to the maximum on account, for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1167, numbers set out in Votes A 2021-22, HC 1125. HC 1171, HC 1214, HC 1228, HC 1230, HC 1234 and HC 1254, 969 10 MARCH 2021 Business without Debate 970

(2) resources, not exceeding £53,780,396,000, be authorised, PUBLIC HEALTH on account, for use for capital purposes as so set out, and That the Public Health (Coronavirus) (Protection from Eviction) (3) a sum, not exceeding £364,923,586,000, be granted to Her (England) (No. 2) Regulations 2021 (S.I., 2021, No. 164), dated Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated 17 February 2021, a copy of which was laid before this House on Fund, on account, and applied for expenditure on the use of 19 February, be approved.—(Scott Mann.) resources authorised by Parliament.—(Scott Mann.) Question agreed to. Ordered, That a Bill be brought in upon the foregoing Resolutions relating to Supplementary Estimates 2020-21, Excesses 2018-2019, Excesses 2019-20 and Vote on Account PETITION 2020-21; That the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor Protection of monuments of Captain James Cook of the Exchequer, Steve Barclay, Jesse Norman, John Glen and bring in the Bill. 7.4 pm Mr Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough South and East SUPPLY AND APPROPRIATION (ANTICIPATION AND Cleveland) (Con): We should celebrate and protect our ADJUSTMENTS) (NO. 2) BILL country’s amazing heritage. People across the Tees Valley Presentation and First Reading are incredibly proud of Captain James Cook, and 2,500 Jesse Norman accordingly presented a Bill to people have signed this decision. authorise the use of resources for the years ending with The petition states: 31 March 2019, 31 March 2020, 31 March 2021 and The petition of residents of the constituency of Middlesbrough 31 March 2022; to authorise the issue of sums out of South and East Cleveland, the Consolidated Fund for the years ending 31 March 2020, Declares that the achievements of Captain James Cook in the 31 March 2021 and 31 March 2022; and to appropriate fields of science, exploration and cartography are of immense the supply authorised by this Act for the years ending historic significance and are rightly commemorated by a number with 31 March 2019, 31 March 2020 and 31 March 2021. of much-loved statues and monuments across Middlesbrough, Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time the Tees Valley and North . tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 273). The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to ensure that those monuments and sites which commemorate Captain James Cook are protected against Business without Debate harm or removal. And the petitioners remain, etc. DELEGATED LEGISLATION [P002651] Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Before the Order No. 118(6)), Adjournment debate, can I ask the Serjeant at Arms—we will not suspend—to sanitise the Government Dispatch ELECTRICITY Box to ensure that it is covid-friendly? [Interruption.] I That the draft Renewables (Amendment) Order 2021, which know, if we had a potter’s wheel at this moment in time, was laid before this House on 3 February, be approved.— we would be doing that, but we just want to make (Scott Mann.) certain. Colonel Bob, if you could take your seat— Question agreed to. [Interruption.] There you are, entertainment as well. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Fantastic—I thank the Serjeant at Arms for doing that. Order No. 118(6)), 971 10 MARCH 2021 Nord Stream 2 Pipeline 972

Nord Stream 2 Pipeline in protecting your continent, yet you—the Secretary- General of NATO—are allowing one NATO partner,” That this House Motion made, and Question proposed, namely Germany, “to, for its own reasons, create this do now adjourn. —(Scott Mann.) direct link with Russia, giving the Russians an umbilical cord for the export of their gas.” We have all heard 7.6 pm about the terrible trouble the Russian economy is in Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): already. This is an umbilical cord from the heart of The Nord Stream 2 pipeline is a gas pipeline being Europe to Russia, giving it the extraordinary opportunity constructed on the bottom of the Baltic sea between of not only exporting to Europe, but putting our NATO Russia and Germany. It is bypassing all of our allies in allies under threat. central and eastern Europe, fellow NATO partners that have in the past been put under the most extraordinary Several hon. Members rose— pressure by the Russians over energy supplies. That is why I am so concerned about this project for the security Daniel Kawczynski: I will just make a couple of extra of NATO and our responsibilities to our allies in central points, and then I will give way. and eastern Europe. Following President Trump, we now have President Although it is not possible for many Members of Biden, who has appointed as his deputy Secretary of State Parliament to be in the Chamber this evening, we have —one of the most powerful positions in Washington—a written to the Prime Minister in the past. Over lady called Wendy Sherman. In the Senate nomination 35 Conservative Members of Parliament have co-signed hearings, when she was being assessed by the other a letter on this issue to the Prime Minister, and there are Senators, she said that the Biden Administration would do many more in other parties who also have grave concerns “whatever is lawful to stop the pipeline”. about this project. The Americans are our closest security and military I can understand why, during the Brexit negotiations partners, and as a fellow permanent member of the UN and indeed when we were negotiating a trade agreement Security Council, if they are prepared to take the lead with the European Union, this Government may have on our continent on this hugely strategically important expressed a certain amount of caution on this issue. issue, we must join them. I have written to Senator Ted Taking into consideration the extraordinary power of Cruz from Texas this week, who is the leading proponent Germanywithin the European Union and the extraordinary in the American Senate of stopping this project. He and power that Germany has over the European Commission, 40 other Republican Senators have written to the President, it may not have been wise for the United Kingdom at calling for the Americans to implement sanctions against that juncture to follow our American partners and any company and any individual involved in this project. others in agitating on this issue. The chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee in Nevertheless, that time has now passed, and we are the Senate, Bob Menendez, a Democrat, has also spoken now an independent sovereign nation state. We are also against this project. a permanent member of the UN Security Council—a I just want to say one thing before I take interventions. privilege peculiar to only five countries in the world—as As an independent sovereign nation with an ability to well as the fifth largest economy in the world and influence our continent now in an unprecedented way, arguably the strongest military power on our continent. unfettered by the communal constraints of the European With those extraordinary privileges and attributes for Union, if we now join the Americans as two permanent Britain come extraordinary responsibility, and that is members of the UN Security Council, I think we could why I believe this Government must now take a lead on possibly stop this project. So many companies involved our continent in having this project stopped. in the construction of this pipeline,whether Swiss companies The project is a threat to NATO security and cohesion. or others, are so frightened of the prospect of sanctions Now, with North Macedonia joining our alliance, we against them that they are likely to pull out of the have 30 members of this most successful military alliance. project, and this project will be stopped. Britain is at the I think it is like being a member of a special club with a forefront in this see-saw between Germany and Russia, gold American Express card. This is one of the most and many of our NATO partners in central and eastern successful military alliances in the world, but we do not Europe and the Americans.It will be Britain that ultimately just have responsibility in protecting our fellow NATO decides which side of this extraordinary debate wins members from invasion; we also have a duty of care, in out and guarantees the security of our NATO partners. the letter and the spirit of our obligations under NATO, to ensure that our NATO partners in central and eastern Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the Europe are not blackmailed and intimidated by the hon. Gentleman on having brought this issue forward: Russians over energy supplies. The Americans understand this is the place for these decisions to be debated. The this. They understand the great threat to NATO, but foreign policy issues surrounding Nord Stream are deep also to the continent of Europe, in allowing this project and complex, as he has referred to. I fully agree that we to come to fruition. It is very close to completion, but it must be wary of reliance on unreliable states. Does the still can be stopped. hon. Gentleman agree that the recent reports of state- I know there are many here who do not particularly sponsored attacks on protesters in Russia are a sobering respect former President Trump, but he said the wisest reminder, if one is needed, that there is more of a cost to thing that I have heard so far when he sat at a table with be paid from being in thrall to Russia than money? the Secretary-General of NATO, Jens Stoltenberg, and said to them, “You expect us to send troops to Poland Daniel Kawczynski: I could not agree more with and the Baltic states, and to protect you. You expect us the hon. Gentleman, and will talk about some of to spend hundreds of billions of pounds every decade the extraordinary behaviour of Russia in its own 973 Nord Stream 2 Pipeline10 MARCH 2021 Nord Stream 2 Pipeline 974 neighbourhood and domestically within its own jurisdiction, gas can be sent inland to landlocked neighbours and and how it is undermining and subverting democracy in NATO partners. Poland is also buying a huge amount its own country. of liquified gas from America and from Norway, and When I was on the Foreign Affairs Committee I has invested billions of dollars in its liquified gas terminal called for dialogue with the Russians. I still stand by at S´winoujs´cie on the Baltic coast—I would like to see that. I think we have to talk to these people, but we have Hansard deal with the spelling of that. I shall help them to do so from a position of strength. Giving them this with the spelling of S´winoujs´cie. Is that not an amazing umbilical cord to the heart of Europe undermines that example, Mr Deputy Speaker? If a country is a member negotiating position. One thing we know about the of NATO, that exclusive club or organisation that has Russians was taught to us by Reagan and Thatcher— not lost a square inch of territory since its inception Thatcher invited Gorbachev to Chequers in December 70 years ago, surely the next step should be to do as 1984, the first western leader to invite him for discussions. Poland is doing, which is to buy gas from America or They taught us that we can only negotiate with those Norway, even if it costs a little bit more, so that it is not people from a position of strength. Divided among us, dependent on Russian gas supplies. they will eat us for breakfast. I would like the Minister to give me an assurance that the Foreign Office is working hand in glove with the Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I agree with every Department for International Trade to assess what word the hon. Gentleman has said in the debate and I opportunities there are for British companies to participate congratulate him on securing it. It is a geostrategic in the construction of these pipelines within the Three Seas mistake for Germany to encourage this, and we need to jurisdiction, and to assist and invest in these liquified get the French on board. If we have three out of the five gas terminals on the coastlines of the Adriatic sea, the Security Council members, that is an even stronger Black Sea and the Baltic sea so that we have some of the position. I am anxious that the UK Government seem greatest energy companies in the world. That is important to be going a bit quiet on this issue, as they have on the not only for British strategic and financial interests, but imprisonment of Alexei Navalny, which is yet another in helping our fellow NATO partners in central and flagrant abuse of human rights in Russia. eastern Europe. Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con) rose— Daniel Kawczynski: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention and agree with every word that he Daniel Kawczynski: I give way to the Chairman of the has said. Later in my speech, I will chide my own Intelligence and Security Committee. Government. They have been almost mute on this issue, and that position does not reflect the urgency of the Dr Lewis: I wonder what reasons Germany has given, situation and the responsibility that our country has. at least publicly, for its behaviour, given the overwhelming Countries in central and eastern Europe are not just case against Nord Stream 2 outlined by my hon. Friend. leaving this all to us to deal with. They have created the I cannot help being put in mind of that famous quotation, Three Seas initiative; 12 countries, all of whom are which may or may not have correctly been attributed to members of the European Union, and all of whom are Lenin, that the west and the capitalists members of NATO—apart from Austria. It is a regional, “will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.” relatively homogeneous bloc. The 12 member countries are on the frontline with Russia. My office and I have Daniel Kawczynski: I could not have put the situation spent the past few weeks interviewing all the ambassadors better. Germany, in a rather peculiar statement the from these 12 countries. We have interviewed 10 out other day, did not really explain why it is building this of 12 so far, and we will be writing a report for Members pipeline. Clearly, it is a stitch-up between the Russians of Parliament about the initiative. These countries are and the Germans. They do not want to rely on the trying to create strategic investments across the whole transportation of gas through Belarus, Ukraine or bloc to safeguard individual members from undue Russian Poland—countries that the Russians have problems with. pressure. Russia does not want to rely on exporting its main commodity through those countries; it wants to have a direct link under the sea, so that Germany, irrespective Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): The strategic problem of its obligations to NATO, can have that direct access is this, is it not? By putting the Nord Stream 2 pipeline to Russian gas. straight into Germany, Germany can guarantee its gas supplies from Russia. On the other hand, these countries Bob Stewart: Will my hon. Friend give way? in eastern Europe—the Three Seas, as it were—could be blackmailed by Russia and picked off from the rest of Daniel Kawczynski: I will not give way for the moment. NATO. That is the strategic problem with Nord Stream 2. It is a very selfish act on Germany’spart and inconsistent with NATO membership. The Germans have also said Daniel Kawczynski: My hon. Friend, who is such an that it is something to do with their obligations to excellent speaker with so much experience in military Russia in terms of reparations from the second world matters, has managed in a few words to sum up the war. They need to help the Russians with the construction whole situation more succinctly than I could in half an of this pipeline out of some sense of duty over war hour. I am grateful to him. reparations. If that is the case, Poland is still waiting for Poland and Croatia have been the instigators of the its war reparations 80 years on. Three Seas initiative. Both countries have built liquified I am very grateful to have secured this Adjournment gas terminals on their coastlines. The whole thing about debate, but it should not be for me, a Back-Bench Tory the Three Seas initiative is that the investments seek to MP, to raise this issue. It should be the Prime Minister create additional pipelines so that more of this liquified and Foreign Secretary explaining the threat of this 975 Nord Stream 2 Pipeline10 MARCH 2021 Nord Stream 2 Pipeline 976

[Daniel Kawczynski] ago, I went on a parliamentary delegation to Minsk, where I saw at first hand how this brutal authoritarian project to our electorate. I suspect that, if most of regime suppresses its own people. But one day,Lukashenko us went back to our constituencies and started talking will be gone and this will be a new, independent, sovereign about the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, not many people fledgling state. Can hon. Members imagine in two, would be cognisant of it. It should be the Prime Minister three, four or five years’ time—whenever it is—when the and Foreign Secretary who are leading the way in democratic Government of Belarus are seeking finally explaining to our citizens the threat that this project to join the rest of Europe as a sovereign state, what poses to our allies and, ultimately, to us. One thing that position they will be in if this gas does not have to go we have learned from history is that if there is instability through their country and just goes straight to Germany in central and eastern Europe—if these countries are under the sea? It will be the greatest impediment to threatened, blackmailed or invaded—which country always the democratisation of Belarus, and we have a duty get sucked into it? It is the United Kingdom. We have and responsibility to that country as a fellow European seen too much instability on our continent to allow Britain partner. to be sucked into that. We need a statement from the I must now conclude. By allowing this pipeline, we British Government that we will implement sanctions not only betray our NATO allies; we empower Russia in on every company and individual involved in this project an unprecedented way to manipulate Belarus and Ukraine. and it must start with the former German Chancellor, I look forward to the Minister’s response to my genuine Gerhard Schröder, who was earning an eye-watering fears and the fears of many colleagues from across the salary at the very pinnacle of this organisation— House. Dr Lewis: Gazprom. 7.28 pm Daniel Kawczynski: Yes, Gazprom, as my right hon. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Friend says. Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Wendy Morton): Germany is behaving in a selfish and dangerous way I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and in a way that is incompatible with its responsibilities and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) for securing this to NATO. As I have also said, let us talk to the Russians, debate, and for his ongoing work on European energy but let us do it from a position of strength. security, including as chair of the all-party parliamentary We have all seen—the hon. Member for Rhondda group for Poland. I am also grateful for the contributions (Chris Bryant) has been one of the most vocal on to this debate that he and other hon. Members have this—the outrageous behaviour of the Russians within made this evening. In the time I have, I will try to the neighbourhood, whether in Georgia, the butchery respond to all the points raised. that took place in South Ossetia, in Ukraine, or the The resumption of construction of the Nord Stream 2 ongoing deliberate violation of the Baltic states’ maritime pipeline after a one-year hiatus has understandably and airspace. I went to Ukraine when I was on the rekindled interests in this project. As many hon. Members Foreign Affairs Committee. We went to Donetsk and are aware, the UK Government have repeatedly aired Luhansk in eastern Ukraine. I have never seen anything our significant concerns about Nord Stream 2, its like it in my 15 years as a Member of Parliament. It was implications for European energy security, and its impact like being on the face of the moon. Everything was on Ukraine and other transit countries. When complete, destroyed. Nothing was left standing. It was a wasteland. Nord Stream 2 will double the Russian gas capacity We on the Foreign Affairs Committee saw what the flowing directly into Germany. Alongside the southern Russians are capable of in Ukraine. TurkStream route, this will largely replace the need for The two countries that this pipeline will violate most Russian gas to transit Ukraine. are indeed Ukraine and Belarus. The Government are The Government’s concerns about the pipeline are a trumpeting their agreement with the Ukrainians on the matter of public record, and we continue to raise them Government website, saying just this month, publicly and in private with key allies. It is important to “UK and Ukraine sign Political, Free Trade and Strategic reiterate that Nord Stream 2 would not affect the UK’s Partnership”. gas supply. The UK gas market is one of the most liquid “A strategic partnership” with Ukraine—there is a and developed in the world and our gas comes from photograph of the Prime Minister with the President of diverse and reliable sources. Most of the gas that we use Ukraine signing the agreement, and it says: comes from our own production and reliable suppliers “UK cooperation in political, security and foreign matters with such as Norway. We receive a small amount of liquefied Ukraine”. natural gas from Russia, but last year it accounted for How can we sign a strategic partnership with the Ukrainians less than 3% of our total gas supply. while at the same time kicking the chair from underneath them, by allowing the one last power that they have over Although Nord Stream 2 would not directly impact the Russians—the fact that they have to export their gas on our energy security, it could have serious implications from Ukraine—not to happen? This agreement it is not for central and eastern European countries. Last year, going to be worth the paper it is written on, if this around one third of European gas came via Russian gas project is allowed to come to a conclusion. pipelines. Some European countries are nearly wholly dependent on Russian gas. This reliance on a single source Bob Stewart: Will my hon. Friend give way? raises serious concerns about energy security.Furthermore, we do not believe that Nord Stream 2 is necessary to Daniel Kawczynski: In a second. meet future European gas demand. There is sufficient Let me turn to Belarus. We have all seen on our existing pipeline infrastructure, including through Ukraine television screens the brave young men and women and Poland, for Russia to meet its European supply fighting against the brutal dictator in Minsk. A few years commitments. 977 Nord Stream 2 Pipeline10 MARCH 2021 Nord Stream 2 Pipeline 978

There are also big questions about the need for Nord of the three seas initiative to promote co-operation and Stream 2 in a decarbonised future. Although the UK development across central and eastern Europe, and we and European countries will continue to need natural are open to the possibility of expanding the UK’s gas for years to come, we are increasingly using energy interaction with that group. I reassure Members that we from renewable sources, and we need to work to eliminate will continue to share our concerns about Nord Stream 2 greenhouse gas emissions from the entire energy system with key partners. It is our strong belief that we should in order to meet our net zero targets. be working to reduce reliance on any single gas supplier, As I have said, the potential impact of Nord Stream 2 and the dependency and leverage that can come with it. on Ukraine is particularly worrying. Ukraine hosts the To counteract the risks associated with Nord Stream 2, largest existing pipeline network for Russian gas, and transit it is essential that European countries diversify their fees have historically made up a significant proportion energy supplies. of Ukraine’s GDP.Nord Stream 2 would divert supplies I was glad to visit Poland in October last year to away from Ukraine, with significant consequences for discuss the need for energy transformation and a just its economy. It could also have significant security transition, including with a business audience at the implications. The transit of Russian gas through Ukraine Wrocław energy congress. Since that time, Poland has is regarded as a deterrent against further Russian aggression, proposed an ambitious energy plan and agreed on the so is a vital part of Ukraine’s national security. EU’s target of at least a 55% reduction in emissions by 2030. Wewill continue to work with it to achieve ambitious Chris Bryant: Will the Minister give way? climate and energy goals. However, with regard to Nord Stream 2, it is also important to recognise Germany’s Wendy Morton: I am going to continue as I am sovereign right to formulate its own energy policy. Nord conscious that I do not have much time. If I have time at Stream 2 is highly contentious, but we would not want the end, I will come back to the hon. Gentleman. the debate over it to risk undermining the co-ordinated It is positive that Naftogaz and Gazprom signed a response by allies to wider Russian malign activity. gas-transit agreement at the end of 2019—it helped to I fully recognise the legitimate concerns that hon. avoid disruption at the time—and we welcome the role Members have raised today. Nord Stream 2 poses a that Germany and the EU played in facilitating the threat to European energy security and the interests of negotiations. However, that agreement provides certainty existing transit countries. At a time when Europe should only through to 2024; after that, there is greater uncertainty. be diversifying and decarbonising its energy supplies, I reiterate the UK Government’s long-standing and Nord Stream 2 risks entrenching European dependency unwavering commitment to Ukraine. We are one of on Russian gas for decades to come, increasing Russia’s Ukraine’s strongest supporters and are providing political ability to use energy as a political tool. For these reasons, and practical support to strengthen its sovereignty and the UK remains opposed to the pipeline and we will resilience. On energy specifically, we are helping Ukraine continue to raise our concerns with key partners. We to reform its energy market, working closely with the will also continue to support initiatives that strengthen Ministry of Energy and the Ukrainian regulator. and diversify the European energy market. I know that some ask whether the UK could be doing Question put and agreed to. more to oppose Nord Stream 2, and my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham has put forward 7.35 pm some interesting proposals. The UK welcomes the efforts House adjourned.

121WH 10 MARCH 2021 Residential Leaseholders and Interim 122WH Fire Safety Costs Interim costs have life-changing impacts. The sheer Westminster Hall feeling of hopelessness is shared by many leaseholders I have spoken to. One constituent wrote to me and said, Wednesday 10 March 2021 “I have worked hard. I have contributed to the communities in which I have lived. I have paid over £100,000 in taxes over the past [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] three years. And yet I now find myself facing potential bankruptcy, homelessness and the collapse of my business through no fault of Residential Leaseholders and Interim Fire my own. My future is utterly bleak, and my life feels worthless.” Safety Costs As soon as a building is assessed to be unsafe, residents Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Order, are told that they must immediately introduce additional 25 February). fire safety protocols or face an evacuation order from [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] the fire brigade. The requirement for those interim measures can be met in two ways. One is by appointing 9.25 am a waking watch, whereby trained wardens continually Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Welcome to patrol the building in order to be able to detect a fire. Westminster Hall from the Boothroyd Room. I remind The second is the installation of specialist alarm systems. hon. Members that there have been some changes to Faced with homelessness, leaseholders have little choice normal practice in order to support the new hybrid but to assume the costs for those measures. arrangements. Timings of debates have been amended Interim measures have become a frequent occurrence to allow technical arrangements to be made for the next as the fire safety crisis has unravelled over the last three debate. There will be suspensions between debates. I and a half years. Every week, new buildings have been remind Members participating physically and virtually discovered to be unsafe.Worryingly,a fire safety assessment that they must arrive for the start of debates in Westminster is generally triggered only when the leaseholder tries to Hall and are expected to remain for the entire debate. If remortgage or sell, which in turn triggers the external Members attending virtually have any technical problems, wall survey or the now-infamous EWS1 process. It they should email the Westminster Hall Clerks’ email means that the true scale of the problem is still unknown, address. Members attending physically should clean and it will only grow in the months and years ahead. their spaces before using them and before leaving the There is currently nothing in law to protect leaseholders room. from the financial responsibilities for such interim measures, which are typically passed on through increased service 9.26 am charges. The data on interim costs are patchy and () (Lab/Co-op): I beg to incomplete. Government figures show that the average move, estimated cost of a waking watch in England is £17,000 per That this House has considered residential leaseholders and block, rising to over £20,000 in London. Per household, interim fire safety costs. that translates to a bill of approximately £500 a month It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, for each affected household. Alarm systems are not Mr Hollobone. It is also a pleasure to be back in much cheaper as an alternative, with estimates ranging Westminster Hall and to be able to debate such an from £50,000 to £150,000 depending on the size of the important topic today. When I became the MP for building. Those figures are eye-watering, and they will Vauxhall in 2019, two and a half years after the horrific recur month after month, year after year, until the Grenfell Tower fire, I did not expect to find so many of cladding is removed and the building is deemed completely my constituents still living in unsafe buildings, blighted safe. by dangerous cladding and other fire safety defects. To In February of this year, the Minister told Parliament date, I have received correspondence from and been that contacted by more than 250 individual leaseholders “we are clear that waking watch regimes should only ever be used living in 27 different unsafe building developments in in the short term”.—[Official Report, 1 February 2021; Vol. 688, my constituency. And that is just in Vauxhall. The sheer c. 690-691.] scale of the cladding scandal is truly shocking, and it On one development in the area of my has revealed the full extent of what can only be described constituency, however, they have been paying for a as a systematic failure in building safety in this country. waking watch since July of last year, at a cost of £10,000 But because of the tireless efforts of campaigners and per flat. The remediation works are not expected to be their supporters up and down the country, we know completed before the end of next year, and the alarm that safety is only one part of this story. Leaseholders system is deemed insufficient to meet the danger. The who bought their homes in good faith now find themselves total cost of the interim measures for this one development saddled with the financial responsibility and liability for is currently estimated to reach over £1 million. What problems that they had absolutely no part in creating. really sticks in the throat for my constituents is not just Much has been said recently about this injustice, and that the interim measures are expensive and mandatory, I am grateful to colleagues across the House who have but that their effectiveness has been called into question. called for urgent action to protect innocent leaseholders. One constituent told me: Understandably, much of the debate has focused on “These guys add little practical value and sit around watching who should pay for the cost of the remedial works to TV on their phones, and yet we have to pay for them under the remove and replace the cladding. However, I want to threat of being evicted if we don’t. In a fire, they are not really draw attention to an equally urgent but much less going to be able to make a blind bit of difference through talked about financial aspect of this crisis. That is the evacuating residents.” eye-watering charges that are being passed on to leaseholders We have to remember that such interim measures are for compulsory interim fire safety measures while they a daily reminder to our constituents that the buildings wait for the remediation work to be completed. they live in are unsafe. The amounts are unaffordable 123WH Residential Leaseholders and Interim 10 MARCH 2021 Residential Leaseholders and Interim 124WH Fire Safety Costs Fire Safety Costs [Florence Eshalomi] cause? Will the Government commit to including provisions within the upcoming draft Building Safety Bill to protect for most people at any stage in life, but many of those leaseholders from such costs, and ensure that they are affected are young, first-time buyers whose dreams of picked up by the people who were responsible for causing home ownership have turned into an unaffordable them in the first place? Will the Government immediately nightmare, with their homes literally unsellable. Industry extend the waking watch relief fund to match the number experts estimate that it will take between five and 15 years of buildings that we know are affected, and make sure for all affected buildings to be remediated. The truth is that all leaseholders facing these costs can apply regardless that the costs are anything but interim. of building heights? Ministers have known about this problem for almost The Minister has previously said that interim measures four years. They have repeatedly acknowledged that fire should be used only temporarily, safety defects are not the fault of leaseholders, and yet “because they are an entirely inadequate substitute for it took the Secretary of State until December last year remediation.”—[Official Report, 1 February 2021; Vol. 688, c. 691.] to announce any sort of help for interim costs. The With that in mind, will the Minister ask the Government waking watch relief fund, which offers a grant to pay to mandate a timetable for the completion of the for the installation of fire alarm systems, was a welcome remediation work in all unsafe blocks to make sure that step in the right direction, but it remains the only form the interim costs do not have to be paid by leaseholders of Government assistance that is available for interim for years to come? costs. In their current form, the fund’s provisions are partial and insufficient. Leaseholders living in blocks Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): The debate will below 18 metres are excluded from applying. The last until 10.55 am. I intend to call the Opposition Government claim that this is because the risk of a spokesman no later than 10.32 am and the Minister at life-threatening fire in lower buildings is smaller, but 10.42 am. Florence Eshalomi will have two or three any building that faces an evacuation order if the interim minutes to sum up the debate at the end. There are measures are not established is, by definition, clearly 16 Back Benchers seeking to contribute. I want to make not safe, regardless of whether it is 18, 15 or 12 metres. sure that everyone gets in, so I am afraid that I will have One such block in Vauxhall, which is under 18 metres, to impose a time limit. If we aim for three minutes, failed its EWS1 assessment in October 2020, and its everybody should have their say.All Members participating leaseholders have had to find more than £170,000 to virtually should have a countdown clock on their screens. pay for interim safety measures. It is estimated that the We will start with Stephen McPartland. remediation work will cost in total £1.4 million. The developer of the building has gone out of business, and 9.39 am leaseholders were all excluded from any Government support schemes. I simply do not know how this situation Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): [V] I thank can ever be fair. the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) for securing this very important debate. She spoke eloquently Even if we focus our attention on just the buildings and movingly about some of the tragic stories that she over 18 metres that can apply for the fund, the £30 million has heard about in her constituency in London. Sadly, that the Government have allocated is drastically short those stories are reflected in my constituency and in of what is needed. The Government estimate that that constituencies up and down the country. will pay for a maximum of 460 buildings, but there are at least 560 eligible buildings in London alone. Lord The costs of intermediate waking watch measures Greenhalgh told the Housing, Communities and Local and of insurance premiums going up by thousands of Government Committee on Monday this week: per cent are just heartbreaking. Even as we speak in these debates, people are going bankrupt, and the “We recognise that the £30 million goes some way, but not all Government do not seem to be listening to the howls of the way.” pain from leaseholders up and down the country, as Finally, the fund pays only for an alarm system they beg for support and assistance. purchased and installed after December 2020. That We are almost four years on from Grenfell and we are totally ignores the thousands of pounds that leaseholders not getting this matter right; we are not helping. have already spent on compulsory and expensive but Unfortunately, the Government are actually making the ineffective waking watch systems. How can that be right situation worse by not working with leaseholders and or fair? the relevant groups, such as the UK Cladding Action The Government, including the Minister,have repeatedly Group—End Our Cladding Scandal. A variety of brilliant said in the House that no leaseholder should pay, so I recommendations have been made by the Housing, ask the Minister whether he agrees in principle that Communities and Local Government Committee, which innocent leaseholders should not be responsible for is chaired by our wonderful colleague, the hon. Member solving the problems that they did not cause. Why are for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), who is taking part we asking the same leaseholders to pay extortionate in this debate.It is imperative that we help these leaseholders. sums for interim costs? When we look at insurance premiums as a measure, I am grateful to the Minister for attending this debate which a lot of people do not recognise, we see that they today. I want to conclude my remarks by focusing on may have gone up by 2,000% or even 3,000%. The what can be done to fix this appalling situation. I have Government are taking 12% in insurance premium tax four questions for the Minister, which I hope he will on those rises, so the insurance premium tax take on answer. Will the Government agree to the principle that those insurance premiums is currently higher than the no leaseholder should have to pay for interim fire safety insurance premiums themselves were a year or two ago. measures to mitigate the problems that they did not That is astonishing. 125WH Residential Leaseholders and Interim 10 MARCH 2021 Residential Leaseholders and Interim 126WH Fire Safety Costs Fire Safety Costs On waking watch, the fire services have told us that and fully fund interim fire safety costs, so that not one they have almost no control over it. Waking watch is leaseholder is left out of pocket, but will fully acknowledge not new; it was introduced years ago and was used, for that the cladding scandal needs to be treated as the example, if a hotel fire alarm did not work. At the national emergency that it truly is. moment, however, waking watches are being used by management companies as the first resort instead of the 9.44 am last resort. As a result, our local fire services do not have any ability to go in and help the leaseholders, who (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: It is a pleasure are being told, “Well, you need to have a waking watch”. to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I There are no other options for them. The fire services congratulate the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Florence should be given some powers to be involved in a responsible Eshalomi) on securing the debate, and it is a pleasure to waking watch, when it is needed, or to consider what follow my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage (Stephen other evacuation orders or measures could be put in McPartland) and the hon. Member for Edmonton (Kate place. And the costs are just staggering. I have constituents Osamor) in highlighting the concerns arising in the in Vista Tower in Stevenage who are paying £15,000 a debate. week and they just cannot afford it; that sum is impossible Given the circumstances, I want to concentrate on for them to afford. They are paying almost as much as two areas. The first is cladding on tall buildings. I some of their mortgage payments and they are now congratulate the Government on securing funding to going bankrupt. help to remediate that cladding, but the problem is that I urge the Minister—please listen to the pain of the cost of removing cladding on tall buildings is often leaseholders up and down the country. Stop talking and dwarfed by the cost of the fire safety measures that start doing. Start helping my constituents and those in a must also be implemented. It is quite clear, as things similar situation up and down the country. stand, that leaseholders will be saddled with the costs of 9.41 am the fire safety measures that are required, as well as the costs of the cladding. I should be grateful if my right Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: I am hon. Friend the Minister would respond to the issue of always pleased to serve under your chairmanship, what exactly is included in the remediation of cladding. Mr Hollobone, and I look forward to doing so again At the Housing, Communities and Local Government today. Committee, there was some confusion when it was I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall suggested that external areas that are not involved in (Florence Eshalomi) on securing this important debate. the cladding, such as different balconies, will now be My constituents in Edmonton who live in Prowse Court, included in the grant scheme. Golden Lion Court and Brickland Court watched the Chancellor’s speech last week and were left feeling very The other problem is that we are now told that once a disappointed. There was not one mention of cladding fire assessment takes place, the remediation grants will or fire safety in the Budget. not be available unless leaseholders sign up to fixing the fire safety issues as well, but those involve eye-watering Leaseholders such as my constituent Jason and his sums of money.The arrangements, of course, are complex. wife moved into their flat in 2007 with their daughter. I think we all agree leaseholders should not have to pay In January this year, a fire safety assessment concluded for the remediation, but the issue then is who should. I that the cladding on Jason’s building needed to be take the view that the taxpayer should not pay for it. removed. Jason and his fellow tenants have no idea The developers, building owners and indeed suppliers about how long they are going to be waiting for the of materials should pay for the fire safety remediation, removal of the cladding or who will meet the costs of as well as the remediation of unsafe cladding. There is that work. All they are certain of is that the interim no doubt that the testing regime was unfit for purpose safety measures must be put in place, including increased at the time in question, but emerging evidence from the fire risk assessments and additional heat detectors. The Grenfell inquiry suggests that manufacturers deliberately freeholder of Jason’s building has already begun passing decided to use the position on testing to cheat on the down the costs of these measures, in the form of increased system. If so, they should be forced to carry out the insurance and service charge costs. That has left Jason remediation at their cost. in debt, unable to move and stuck in an unsafe building that is costing him more and more money. Jason goes to Equally, there is the challenge of insurance, mortgages sleep every night knowing that his family is not safe and and the values of the properties that are affected. Clearly, that there is no end in sight to his worry. To put it at the moment, leaseholders cannot be expected to wait simply, Jason’s family are trapped. for the introduction of the building safety Bill. It will I have raised identical cases with the Secretary of take more than two years for it to come into operation, State for Housing, Communities and Local Government and leaseholders cannot wait. We need clarity on the to ask that the Government fully fund interim fire point that the fees and costs will be picked up and that safety costs. In their reply, the Government seemed the leaseholders will not have to pay them. We also focused only on ensuring that remediation work is know that it will take an extended period to carry out completed first. It is incredibly unjust to penalise those the works. who did not cause this cladding scandal to have to wait I will rest my remarks there. I hope that we will get a for remediation work to be completed first, while allowing response from the Minister on exactly what the scheme the property developer to walk away, bearing no interim covers. costs and seemingly no long-term costs. I hope that the Minister will carefully consider what Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): In a moment, I has been said in this debate and will ensure that in the will call Dame . The speaker after her future the Government will not only meet their obligations has withdrawn, so then we will go to Hilary Benn. 127WH Residential Leaseholders and Interim 10 MARCH 2021 Residential Leaseholders and Interim 128WH Fire Safety Costs Fire Safety Costs 9.48 pm 9.52 am Dame Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab) [V]: I warmly Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con) [V]: congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, (Florence Eshalomi) on securing this important debate. Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the hon. Member for In June 2019, a devastating fire tore through the Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) on securing this debate. timber balconies of Samuel Garside House in Barking. The Government have done a great deal—I recognise Residents lost their homes and possessions, and even that—with the money and funding made available. Equally, their pets, and now live in fear, suffering sleepless nights however, it is not enough, because the quantum of and constant anxiety. Those residents were the first of money available is not adequate and does not cover all many constituents impacted by the cladding scandal the consequences of the regulatory failure that has put who have sought my help. many people, including constituents of mine, in an impossible situation. It will be necessary for the Government Leaseholders in Barking and Dagenham are not wealthy. to look again. Let me explain why that is important. Many live hand to mouth, and most cannot even afford We have already heard about the dire position that contents insurance. Cladding has turned their dream of many flat owners are placed in. Many of them have buying a home into a living nightmare. They face ongoing done the right thing in many ways—they have sought costs for interim safety measures, and cannot afford to buy their own homes—and they have done the things them. There are massive bills for waking watches, building that my party has urged them to do. Now, they feel cut insurance and EWS surveys, and the residents cannot adrift. Many are people at the lower of the income sell or remortgage their homes. scale, and many bought these properties as their entry At Academy Central, residents have paid £3,500 per into the housing market. Key statistics show, for example, household per year for a waking watch. Many cannot that some 59% of the homeowners caught in this situation afford it and have been doing 24-hour control themselves, have an income of less than £50,000, and 33% of less which places huge strain on their lives. At Rivermill than £35,000; when they are being hit with massive bills Lofts, leaseholders have struggled to get an EWS of tens of thousands of pounds, that is not very much—on survey. They have been quoted hundreds of pounds per properties that are unmortgageable or unsaleable. flat, and only 70% of the households have paid up. In In Northpoint, in my constituency, residents have the meantime, their flats are worthless. At the Ropeworks, collectively paid more than £0.5 million on a waking building insurance shot up from £70,000 to £650,000—that watch, on top of £120,000 for the installation of a is 900%—in two years. At Barking Central, bills for temporary fire alarm. In some cases, the evidence shows interim measures have reached £6,500 per home. A that people are paying up to £50,000 a month. Also, as third of leaseholders cannot afford that, and the cladding has been observed, insurance premiums have shot through grant that they hope to get will not cover the costs of the roof. In one London block, for example, the premium dealing with things such as flammable insulation or increased from £130,000 to £690,000. That is despite the faulty firebreaks. fact that, in some cases, those buildings have been approved by the Department for the ACM remediation Many leases are buy-to-let, and the landlords often scheme and have put alarms in place. None the less, the just do not care—at Arboretum Place, only five people insurance industry has, frankly, made unreasonable and turned up to discuss a way forward. The owner-occupiers unjustified levels of profit, and it needs to put its house cannot even begin to sort out the mess if the landlords in order, too. will not engage. Responsibilities are diffuse, ownership is often shady and stakeholders shirk their obligations. I We do need to pursue those at fault in the cladding have had freeholders refusing point blank even to consider scandal—the contractors and the builders—but that that they have a moral duty to help, developers refusing will take time, and it may take years. The leaseholders to turn up to meetings and insurers profiteering. need help with cash flow. That is why the Government should be making available not just grants but loans to The Government said that leaseholders should not be recouped from those who are ultimately responsible. have to pay, but my leaseholders need Government Only the Government have the cash flow to enable these action, not warm words. Developers, freeholders, builders, people to move on with their lives. There is not just an manufacturers and regulators should all contribute, but economic cost but a massive personal and social one, only the Government can force them to do so. The too, for the victims of the cladding scandal. support package still has too many gaps—insufficient funding, arbitrary height thresholds, unaffordable loans 9.55 am and the ignoring of all the other defects. The issue will Hilary Benn [V]: I hope you can hear me now, Chair. not go away—we will not let it—until the Government act comprehensively and thoroughly so that homes are Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): We can hear you, made safe and leaseholders are not forced to foot the and now would be a really good time to hear your bills. contribution.

Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I call Hilary Hilary Benn: I do apologise. Benn. I join others in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) on securing the debate and on talking so passionately, as others 9.51 am have, about the unaffordable cost to our constituents of Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab) [V]: [Inaudible.] waking watches and insurance bills. We all know that those costs are to pay for the symptom of the problem; Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I call Sir Robert they will never remedy the problem itself, but they will Neill. eventually end up bankrupting people. 129WH Residential Leaseholders and Interim 10 MARCH 2021 Residential Leaseholders and Interim 130WH Fire Safety Costs Fire Safety Costs My constituent Hayley Tillotson saved up for four and removal, and we have discovered that, as others years to buy her flat. She called it: have said, large measures will not be covered by the “The proudest moment of my life.” Government’s grant. I find it intolerable that the developer Just before Christmas, she had to declare herself bankrupt is now coming back and saying that all these other and hand back the keys to her dream home. Why? defects, which it is equally responsible for, including the Because the waking watch fee was the same as her wooden balconies, will not be covered in those costs. mortgage, and she did not have the money to pay it. The Therefore, my constituents feel that they will not be point I want to make is simply this: despite the steps the made safe, or, if they are, that it will be at a high cost to Government have taken, without something else happening, themselves and not the developers. these so-called interim costs will continue to be demanded In the meantime, like other Members’ constituents, in the months and years ahead because the buildings my constituents are being hit with increases in their will not have been made completely safe. Why is that? service charges, particularly around insurance. There is Dangerous cladding is only part of the problem. The no way that they can afford the waking watch costs that other part is that wooden balconies and walkways, are being imposed on them. Like others, they feel lost. flammable insulation and missing fire breaks have been They are trapped in their homes. They cannot sell on. discovered time and time again as innocent leaseholders They are growing families. People are trying to move learn that their block was not constructed even to the around the country to get a job, as a result of the job building standards of the time. losses in my area, but they cannot, because they just cannot sell on. Their whole lives are being put on hold. The Minister knows perfectly well that leaseholders do not have the money to fix those other fire safety There has to be a sense of urgency from the Government defects. When the Secretary of State was pressed on now—a clarity about what is covered by the building that, he said that the taxpayer could not be expected to grant put forward by the Government, to ensure that meet the cost of fixing any safety defect on any building there is comprehensive cover. Secondly, all the interim of any height. That is a fair point, although successive measures have to be covered. Thirdly, there needs to be Governments do bear some responsibility because they action from Government on the control of service presided over the scandal. But the people who really charges imposed on many of our residents by some of should pay—the developers, the builders and the these developers, whom most of us have lost confidence freeholders—should be asked for the money. The in, even if we had any in the beginning. Government have created the means through the tax I close by re-emphasising the distress that this is and the levy announced by the Secretary of State, so causing my constituents—distress to the point that it is they should provide loans to fix the problem and recoup affecting their health. I think we have a number of the money from those three sources. mental health crises now as a result not just of what has I am grateful to the Minister for his reply to my happened to constituents because of the development written question about whether works to remove dangerous of buildings that were not properly regulated or inspected cladding that are funded by the building safety fund will and that were faultily built, but because of the distress be delayed if insufficient funds are available to fix the caused by the laggard way in which the Government other fire safety problems. A press report suggested that have handled this issue. I cannot stress enough the sense that could happen, but his reply implied that it would of urgency that there should be at the heart of Government not. Could he clarify that in responding? about addressing these issues. The fact remains that until sufficient funds are identified, Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Everyone has the costs will continue to drain the resources and the been so good that we can splash out and raise the time spirits of all the leaseholders caught up in this nightmare. limit to three and a half minutes. Enjoy! The question to the Minister remains a simple one: he knows that leaseholders cannot afford to fix the other 10.1 am problems, so what is his plan for getting them fixed? (Birkenhead) (Lab) [V]: It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I 9.58 am thank my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) for securing this important debate. She has John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab) [V]: I long been a passionate supporter of all those who have thank my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Florence been so terribly affected by this issue, and I have no Eshalomi) for securing the debate. May I say how doubt that we are all immensely grateful for her tireless impressive her introduction was? It is a reflection of the efforts. I also pay tribute to our nation’s heroic fire and immense talent she brings to the House. rescue teams, who put their lives on the line every day to I will speak briefly, because I promised my constituents keep us all safe. who live at the Ballymore development at High Point The fact that we have been forced to have this debate Village in Hayes that I would take every opportunity I at all is a matter of deep regret. Nearly four years after could to raise their concerns. Like other Members, I the Grenfell fire, the Government are still to learn the find it virtually impossible to describe the distress that lessons of that tragedy and to take the action that is so my constituents have experienced and are going through. desperately needed to ensure that everyone is safe in It started the day after Grenfell, when they were concerned their home. Too many people remain stuck in unsafe about their own safety, but it then took a long time to flats that they cannot sell, pushed to the brink of get a thorough inspection under way. bankruptcy by the colossal costs of waking watches and The developer has behaved totally irresponsibly and cladding removal, and in fear of going to sleep each is failing to communicate effectively with my constituents. night. In Merseyside alone, there are 25 buildings with In addition, we are only now into the application stage waking watches in operation, and there are 65 across for Government assistance to tackle the cladding costs the north-west. 131WH Residential Leaseholders and Interim 10 MARCH 2021 Residential Leaseholders and Interim 132WH Fire Safety Costs Fire Safety Costs [Mick Whitley] time as Action for Children reports that 40% of families are struggling to feed their children. I hope that the With the Fire Safety Bill, the Government had the Minister will outline exactly what support his Department opportunity to draw a line in the sand, but that Bill is giving to those having to choose between paying for failed to go far enough or fast enough, and will have waking watch or a hot meal for their children. I also done little to address the very real concerns of the many expect the Minister to clarify what further support will thousands of people stranded in unsafe buildings.Similarly, be provided to those leaseholders who receive universal the £3.5 billion announced by the Communities Secretary credit and face the costs of waking watch. The uplift of simply will not address the scale of this crisis. While it £20 a week pays for less than an hour of a waking watch may help people living in buildings over 18 metres, once a week. those stuck in smaller housing blocks still face being It is nearly four years since the Grenfell tragedy and burdened with debts that many of them can never even we are still talking about interim measures. The toxic hope to repay. Let us be clear: leaseholders should be mix of the fire safety crisis and covid is causing a public not be forced to shoulder the costs of other people’s health crisis, which should be recognised by the mistakes, but despite saying on no less than 17 occasions Government. This is not only about an industry that that leaseholders will not be forced to meet the costs of needs reforming; it is also about a health crisis that fire safety measures, that is exactly what the Government needs addressing. Unaffordable costs heaped on top of now expect thousands of people to do. The Government the mental torment caused by living in dangerous buildings also said nothing about addressing the issue of non- do not feel interim for those facing them. This has cladding-related fire risks, such as wooden balconies, already inflicted irreversible damage on the livelihoods despite the considerable risks that these pose to tenants. and wellbeing of many leaseholders across the country. Finally, as we consider the Government’s failure to I expect the Minister not only to acknowledge this step up and ensure the safety of leaseholders, we must injustice, but to commit to providing the urgent and not forget the role that 10 years of sweeping funding immediate support needed for those leaseholders. cuts to frontline fire and rescue have played in the undermining of all our safety. Since the Conservatives 9.58 am came to power in 2010, 400 firefighters have been lost in (Sheffield Central) (Lab) [V]: It is a Merseyside alone. Across the country, thousands more pleasure to contribute in this debate with you in the posts have been axed and hundreds of stations closed. Chair, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate my hon. Friend The tragic consequence is that response times have the Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) on securing fallen and our fire service’s ability to tackle incidents the debate and on opening it so powerfully. and save lives has been critically undermined. I represent several blocks across central Sheffield that 9.54 pm are affected by the cladding and fire safety scandal, with leaseholders being destroyed by the failure of the Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab) [V]: I thank Government to come up with a solution that matches my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Florence the scale of the problem. The Metis building has gained Eshalomi) for securing this hugely important debate a lot of public attention, and last night there was a and for her fantastic contribution, and for her tireless meeting of leaseholders there. Five weeks after applying work on these issues, including on the Housing, for the waking watch fund, there is still no money. Communities and Local Government Committee, on Alarms take some weeks to install, so they face substantially which I serve alongside her. more waking watch costs on top of the £120,000 they Residential leaseholders are the only group involved have already paid. There is no plan yet for missing in the cladding scandal who have no responsibility for external cavity barriers or insulation, which they are the danger they are in every waking minute and when told will not come this year because of the cost, estimated they are asleep. The Government, the regulators, property at £6.2 million, for which they have been rejected by the developers, builders—I could go on and on—all have building safety fund, meaning that they will not get an their share of responsibility for the cost of interim fire EWS1 form, leaving their properties unsaleable and safety measures following Grenfell, yet leaseholders still them facing bills of up to £50,000. have to pay ever-increasing bills to cover these interim Replacement of ACM cladding for Metis is being costs. As we have heard in heartbreaking testimonies to funded, but I have been contacted by a commercial the HCLG Committee, many are experiencing an leaseholder with a small business operating from the unimaginable toll on their mental health, from building who faces a bill of £327,000 to pay the shortfall circumstances out of their control and not of their on ACM remediation because of the cash limits in the making. The lack of clarity from Government is also scheme. She fears that will drive her out of business, causing significant distress, so I hope that the Minister after many years. will today provide the further clarity that Members and My hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall described campaigners are asking for. After two hours at a Select the impact of interim costs really well. One of those Committee on Monday, I was left with more questions interim costs is insurance, as the hon. Member for than answers about who is actually responsible for this Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) highlighted. In the current chaos and who will pick up the tab for sorting Metis building, they faced a 60% increase in insurance it out. costs. The situation is worse for residents in the Wicker Waking watch is one of the fastest growing service Riverside complex, who were evacuated before Christmas industries in England, but with no regulation and no because of multiple fire safety failings. Their building cap on costs, there has been an increase in bankruptcies has become uninsurable, exposing them to huge risk and bailiffs up and down the country. These costs are and potential breach of mortgage agreements. They being passed on to leaseholders and come at the same met the Building Safety Minister last week and it appears 133WH Residential Leaseholders and Interim 10 MARCH 2021 Residential Leaseholders and Interim 134WH Fire Safety Costs Fire Safety Costs that the Government are relying on a market solution. Tower inquiry and Dame Judith Hackitt’s review are No market solution is forthcoming. There is a precedent clearly not being carried out at pace. Where did the for the Government underwriting insurance in such sense of urgency go? situations to enable a solution. Will the Minister consider This is not a situation where the Government can such a way forward? choose what to remedy and what not to remedy. In my The hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) constituency, residents of the Parkside development said that the Government should not foot the bill for have been told by Peabody housing association that its the failings of others. He is right, but only the Government remediation work will take approximately five years. In can act to hold those responsible to account, as the hon. this half-decade, the residents will be made to pay for Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill) short-term solutions. I join my colleagues in saying that pointed out. Only the Government can ensure that is entirely unacceptable. Leaseholders should not have these issues are dealt with with the urgency that is to pay for any shortcomings that they are not responsible needed. We should also recognise that the Government for, even for a short period. have much more responsibility than the leaseholders, I implore the Government not to allow my words and because they oversaw the flawed system of building those of others to fall to the ground. This is about inspections that signed off so many of these unsafe protecting lives, securing a home for people and families, buildings. These leaseholders are the victims of and doing the decent thing up and down our country. comprehensive regulatory failure and that is why it is the responsibility of Government to step in, own the 10.14 pm problem and resolve it, without any costs to leaseholders, either now or in the future, through any loans scheme. Ms (West Ham) (Lab) [V]: I am very grateful for the extra 30 seconds, Mr Hollobone. I We are talking about unbearable pressure and thank my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Florence unimaginable strain on the young people and families Eshalomi) for organising this debate and speaking so who are trapped in homes that are unsafe and unsaleable. brilliantly in opening it. In West Ham, we have the The Minister knows that this is a grave injustice. He highest take-up of furlough and unemployment is up must assure us that he will remedy it. 240% since the pandemic began—it is grim. That is what people in Newham already face, and the costs and 10.11 am stresses of so-called interim fire safety measures come on top of that really difficult reality. Interim means that (Lewisham East) (Lab) [V]: It is a privilege until the blocks of flats have been certified and, if to speak in this debate, and I congratulate my hon. necessary, remediated, people are in limbo, and that is Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) proving to be a really long time. Because of these measures, on securing it. We simply cannot raise this issue enough, residents are still living with the constant reminder that as it affects so many of our constituents’ lives across the their building is not safe. It preys on their mind, and country. they are paying through their nose for the privilege. I have constituents who write to me, and parents and Zain’s block was found to be unsafe, but the original friends who write about their loved ones; about how developer of his building is now operating another they feel trapped, how they have fallen into severe debt, company. It has refused to take responsibility, so the how they are living in overcrowded situations because costs will inevitably fall to Zain and the other residents they cannot move home, and how they are desperately of his block. The Minister knows full well what I think worried about their safety. Residents have been paying about that. I would be grateful to him if he touches on waking watch costs. They have seen insurance costs what he can do to help Zain and other residents in rocket. They have seen service charges increase. They similar circumstances. should not have to contribute to replacing cladding, Before the expensive remediation work even begins, when all of this is no fault of their own. What was once Zain has been faced with massive bills. The insurance their dream home has become a nightmare. I have said premium for the block has rocketed from £3,500 to this before, and I am saying it again: this nightmare is £280,000. Unbelievably, Zain was asked to cover 2021’s their reality. This experience is something they live with bill with one day’s notice. Then there is the cost of the daily, in real financial and emotional terms. new alarm system, round after round of surveys, a new The Secretary of State’s long-awaited announcement managing agency and even the dreaded waking watch. last month about support for residents in dangerous Overall, that could cost Zain £20,000—probably more. buildings fell short of what is needed for the people of His building is not a high rise, so unless the Government our country who are affected. Why was the Minister so change tack, the estimated £40,000 per household for short-sighted? Why was this whole issue absent from the the cost of remediation will not be covered fully either. Chancellor’s Budget? If residents live with unsafe cladding Zain is terrified. He is going to have a bill of £60,000 and fire defects, that is through no fault of their own; and upwards in total. the height of the building should not matter either. The I cannot emphasise enough what a strain this issue is Government are not meeting their duty, but they are putting on my constituents’ lives, their relationships, protecting developers,freeholders and insurance companies. their ability to move on, and their mental health. It is so That is what we surmise from this gross inaction. unfair. Time and again, Ministers have promised that Financial support should not be non-existent for leaseholders trapped in these situations will not have to people and their families living in housing blocks beneath pay to fix problems that they did not cause, but as I said six storeys. The Grenfell disaster took 72 precious lives. before, with the interim costs, leaseholders are already I have to ask: what are the Government waiting for paying. That is why so many people were bitterly before they are motivated to act decently? The actions disappointed when the Government rejected Labour’s recommended by both the phase 1 report of the Grenfell amendments and the McPartland-Smith one-two. I really 135WH Residential Leaseholders and Interim 10 MARCH 2021 Residential Leaseholders and Interim 136WH Fire Safety Costs Fire Safety Costs [Ms Lyn Brown] this is a UK-wide scandal. I have repeatedly asked the Minister for details on the new levy, the new tax and hope that today the Minister will provide us with fresh what new money will be made available for Wales, and I assurances that we can pass to Zain and the thousands have had one-line answers from him. I hope he will get of others that this seemingly endless awful situation will around the table with his officials and the Welsh finally be resolved, and that the Government will step up. Government Housing Minister, Julie James, who wants to work in a constructive way on the Building Safety 10.18 am Bill, as we have done on the Fire Safety Bill, so that we can get a solution that works for the whole UK, including (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ my leaseholders and residents in Wales, and get them Co-op) [V]: It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, the answers they need. Mr Hollobone. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) for her powerful opening At the moment they are left in the dark, with additional to the debate, and all colleagues from across the House, worries because they see the Secretary of State making whose speeches reflect the frustrations, anger, mental big announcements and then brushing away anything health worries and financial worries experienced by my to do with Wales. That is not the way to handle the constituents in Cardiff South and Penarth. I have many situation. My leaseholders want answers, they want of these buildings with a huge series of defects—not them now, they want justice and they want to work just fire safety, but the wider building defects that have co-operatively across the UK, to find a solution to their been referred to. My constituents’ experiences reflect terrible circumstances. those shared by other hon. Members. I will give some examples away from the fire safety 10.21 am issues: compartmentation, cladding, foam inside the (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab) [V]: walls of the buildings, and balconies have been touched It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. on already, but there are other issues. I discovered in Mr Hollobone. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member one of my blocks issues with the foul water system. It forVauxhall(FlorenceEshalomi)onbringingthisimportant had not even been connected in one leaseholder’s flat, debate. and as a result, sewage flooded into her flat. It was As the cladding scandal rolls on, it is becoming found later that it had been propped up on a Starbucks increasingly clear that the Government are not concerned cup. That is what we are talking about; those are the enough with the physical safety or financial security of defects in buildings that people are having to put up my constituents who are living every single day in with. It is completely unacceptable, and residents simply unsafe housing. The Government’sposition on the waking should not have to put up with the cost of remediation. watch measures are just one example of that. Committing It is not their responsibility; it is the responsibility of to the use of waking watches, as the National Fire the original developers who built the buildings, as I have Chiefs Council suggests, would mean committing to maintained throughout this. Government must step in temporary measures that would go on indefinitely. In its to act because the time it will take is clear, as many written submission to the Public Bill Committee on the colleagues have said. Fire Safety Bill, the Fire Brigades Union stated that it My residents have also been hit with many interim was unable to support the use of waking watches in that costs, such as waking watches, investigations into materials way, for fear that it would become and the state of walls, or insurance costs, which have “a de facto permanent state of affairs.” been mentioned. I have met the Association of British Temporary measures such as those have been in place Insurers and the wider industry to raise concerns about since the Grenfell Tower tragedy in 2017. The word that. The Government must work with insurers to ensure “temporary” is losing its meaning and I would be that we do not get to a situation where insurers pull out grateful if the Minister would address that in his response, and residents, such as those in one of my blocks, are because constituents are now faced with bankruptcy, suddenly hit with thousands of pounds in additional with the cost of waking watches placed at their door. insurance premiums that they simply cannot afford, not The other matter I would like to raise is the overwhelming least in the current pandemic. Many of these residents financial burden being placed on leaseholders who are are key workers and are struggling. Some have retired also legally freeholders. I draw on the example of the and do not have the money to pay these bills. Limehouse West estate in my constituency, to bring the I welcome the investment that the Welsh Government matter to the Minister’s attention. Limehouse West was have promised to deal with these issues. In their Budget, owned by the Canal & River Trust until November in contrast to the Chancellor’s, there was a specific 2019, when about 60% of the leaseholders got together section on support for leaseholders.The Welsh Government to buy the freehold. They did that for a number of are going to make an additional £32 million available to reasons. They wanted to take charge of their estate, as deal with fire and building safety defects, on top of the the Canal & River Trust was extremely slow to respond £10.6 million that they have already promised. They are and do anything around the estate, and my constituents very clear about their position and have been putting did not want to pay the ground rent. pressure on developers. I am pleased to say that in In the context of the ongoing cladding scandal, for recent weeks we have seen some movement from Persimmon those constituents, being their own freeholders included and Taylor Wimpey,which have both announced different some benefits. There was no risk of the Canal & River funds. I am due to meet Taylor Wimpey in order to Trust choosing wildly expensive or unnecessary remedial understand the full details in the days to come. works and then saddling leaseholders with costs, or I want to come to the Minister. There has been a lack the Canal & River Trust doing nothing for years and of co-operation with the Welsh Government, where the flats staying almost unsellable while waiting for the there is need for co-operation across the UK because EWS1 certificates. 137WH Residential Leaseholders and Interim 10 MARCH 2021 Residential Leaseholders and Interim 138WH Fire Safety Costs Fire Safety Costs Many of my constituents on that estate are both themselves. I cannot put any other interpretation on freeholder and leaseholder. The Government say that Lord Greenhalgh’s statement on Monday to the Select leaseholders should not have to pay a penny. Who pays Committee. He said: for any cladding and remediation works at Limehouse “We are not asking any of the building owners to make any West and similar estates in my constituency, including contribution to the remediation costs.” for interim measures? If it is the freeholders, 60% of my I cannot take that to mean anything other than innocent constituents on that estate will bear the cost of the work leaseholders will end up picking up the bill. If that is that will benefit all of them, without any means of where we end up, it surely means that the thousands of recovering those costs. Many of my constituents who pounds that leaseholders are paying out to help keep are freeholders-leaseholders feel that it is very unfair. If themselves safe will be theirs alone to meet. it is the original developers who should pay, there is the Despite two updates to the waking watch guidance difficult legal problem of making this happen. In the and recommendations that interim alarms are installed, case of the estate, the developer is the absolutely awful we have sites that have needed both a waking watch and Bellway, which tells me that it will not pay for something interim alarms for years, costing the leaseholders a huge that was completed over 20 years ago. amount of money, which it seems they will never get I would be grateful if the Minister could help distinguish back. After 44 months,there has been no impact assessment where leaseholders are also freeholders in response to of the costs and benefits of such interim measures. the costs of interim measures and the wider costs of Despite the Government producing data that they say remediation works. Does he believe there should be would allow leaseholders to challenge the reasonableness parity between the burden placed on freeholders- of the costs, there is no evidence that leaseholders have leaseholders and leaseholders only where the freehold been able to do so in the tribunal. has been bought out by a party that is not related to the It is also worth pointing out that, in addition to the original developer in any way? I really believe that the extra costs, leaseholders have found that their insurance building industry should have to take a greater burden, premiums—even in buildings with no history of fire but in the absence of that, it would be great to get safety issues—have skyrocketed by an average of clarification from the Minister. 400%, which is financially devastating. The money has to be paid by leaseholders every week, and they currently 10.25 am have no prospect of recovering it. These are people who, through no fault of their own, have been left in an (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab) impossible position. They deserve our support, and [V]: It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, they deserve a solution. At the moment, they are having Mr Hollobone. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member to pay three times: once for the property, once for the for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) on securing the debate defects that we are talking about at the moment, and and on the eloquent way in which she introduced the also for interim measures in the meantime. When the subject. She went through the eye-watering costs, and Minister responds, I want him to tell us where else she powerfully made the point that the costs are there people pay three times to get the same thing. week in, week out, until the defects are removed. I state for the record my co-chairing of the all-party 10.29 am parliamentary group on leasehold and commonhold (Weaver Vale) (Lab): It is a pleasure reform, and I am a patron of the Leasehold Knowledge to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I Partnership, which brings its expertise to the APPG and congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall has helped to secure many of our experts, who between (Florence Eshalomi) on securing the debate and on her them have put together what I consider to be credible continuing fight for leaseholders across her constituency. and fair proposals to try to deal with many of the issues I also thank her for focusing this debate on an aspect of that have been raised today. As things stand, what the the building safety crisis that has received less attention Government are proposing is not credible or fair, and it in the House but is equally financially crippling, as she will not deal with the plethora of building safety issues has argued, for leaseholders up and down the country. that leaseholders have been lumbered with. In fact, I thank the 16 Members who have contributed When the Secretary of State made his announcement very powerfully to the debate today. My hon. Friend the in the main Chamber, we were told that the Government’s Member for Edmonton (Kate Osamor) referred to the plans would give certainty to leaseholders, but anyone astronomical insurance costs piling on to leaseholders who heard the Minister’s evidence before the Select in her constituency. The hon. Member for Harrow East Committee on Monday will have been left with the (Bob Blackman) argued that manufacturers that have impression that certainty is one of the things that is gamed the testing system should contribute by paying clearly missing at the moment. We still do not know for interim measures and more. My hon. Friend the who will be the legally responsible body for the remediation, Member for West Ham (Ms Brown) spoke about the and it looks like there is still a huge risk that leaseholders nightmare that is the EWS1 system, and debt piled on will find themselves saddled with a debt that they have top of debt in the midst of the covid crisis. not consented to and should not be responsible for. The costs for leaseholders have dominated the headlines The reality is that we have moved from statements over the past few years. We are nearly four years on that Ministers have made in the past about the strong from Grenfell, where 72 people tragically lost their lives, expectation on freeholders to put matters right, to the but today’sdebate demonstrates the importance of breaking shameful position that we are now in, which is frankly a the costs down to expose exactly what constitutes the bit of muddle. However, it is looking more and more unimaginable debt being imposed on leaseholders for likely that freeholders will have their assets invested in defects that they did not cause. People are literally and brought up to scratch at no cost and at no risk to going bankrupt. 139WH Residential Leaseholders and Interim 10 MARCH 2021 Residential Leaseholders and Interim 140WH Fire Safety Costs Fire Safety Costs [Mike Amesbury] us with details of the new arrangements, and how about updating my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South Across the country,leaseholders are trapped in dangerous and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) on co-operation with buildings. They are unsure of when their home will be the Welsh Government? Costs for leaseholders go far made safe or how much that will cost them, but as soon deeper than the financial cost. As my right hon. Friend as a building is judged to be unsafe, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) the Member for Vauxhall pointed out, the costs start pointed out, mental health and stress are taking a toll. piling up. Additional safety measures, often in the form These are all consequences of the scandal as the bills of 24-hour waking watches, are put in place, and pile up. leaseholders have little choice but to foot the bill—they Nearly four years on after Grenfell, the very first step either do so or become homeless—which is £174 million that the Government should have taken, which they still a year. Far from being temporary, as the word “interim” have not done, despite our repeated calls, was to establish would suggest, there are waking watches that have now the extent of the crisis and properly prioritise buildings been in place for years, and they will probably be in according to risk. They have not provided sufficient place for even more years to come. The cost for each upfront funding to start getting dangerous cladding leaseholder is more than £500 a month on average and, and other materials off these buildings immediately. in many cases, much, much more, as we have heard They have not protected leaseholders from the costs, as throughout today’s debate. promised over and again. It is about time the polluter After refusing repeatedly to help leaseholders to cover genuinely does pay for the building safety scandal. I these costs, the Government have now provided some—I hope the Minister will answer the questions asked by say “some”—funding to fit alarm systems in some me and other hon. Members today. buildings, those that are 18 metres and above in height. That will reduce the need for a waking watch, but once 10.37 am again, the Government’s actions have come far too late and fall far short of what is needed. We know that The Minister for Housing (Christopher Pincher): It is waking watches are present in about 800 buildings, but a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, the £30 million provided by the Government will cover Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the hon. Member for at most 460—a figure far lower than the number of Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) and all other Members buildings with waking watches in London alone, as my who have spoken on behalf of their constituents and hon. Friend pointed out. Does the Minister think that, contributed so passionately and eloquently to this debate when it comes to safety, this type of funding lottery is on a matter that we all care deeply about. The consequences right? I am also concerned by reports that even after fire of the Grenfell fire were catastrophic for the people and alarms are installed, evacuation managers are required the community involved, and have been complex and in some blocks and, again, it is leaseholders who are left wide ranging for many people across our country as a paying the bill. Can the Minister say whether he has result. That is why—then, since and now—we are taking looked into how many buildings this actually impacts? clear and decisive action to provide an unprecedented Safety costs are, of course, not the only interim costs sum of money, more than £5 billion of taxpayers’ funds, that leaseholders are incurring. A survey from the for building safety to protect those most at risk. Association of Residential Lettings Agents—my hon. In the short time that I have I will speak to the issue Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston of cladding remediation and also to the title of the (Justin Madders) referred to this— has found that insurance debate, interim fire safety costs. I will answer as many costs have risen on average by 400%. For one in 10 blocks, hon. Members’ questions as I can. If I do not complete the cost of insurance is now 10 times or more what it that task in the allotted time, I am happy to follow up was just a year ago. This is a picture that takes us from and write to Members subsequently. Sheffield, where a building is uninsurable, to Manchester, The biggest cost facing leaseholders affected by building to Birmingham and to London. Hikes of 1,000%-plus safety is cladding remediation. It is unacceptable for are not uncommon. leaseholders to face those unaffordable costs. That is Lord Greenhalgh, the Minister responsible for building why we committed £1.6 billion of taxpayers’ money to safety, is due to meet insurers in yet another roundtable accelerate the removal and replacement of unsafe cladding this week. Can this Minister confirm whether that on the highest risk buildings—those over 18 metres in roundtable will be the one that finally sorts out the height—after the Grenfell tragedy. That was driven by problem and intervenes in the insurance market? Ultimately, the remediation of the most dangerous form of cladding, the only way to stop interim costs continuing is to get as the House will know—aluminium composite material buildings safe quickly.Some are still left worrying whether, cladding. I am pleased to say that as a result of that when that day comes, they will be left with a bill not just disbursement, 95% of those high-rise buildings with for cladding, but for a host of fire safety defects not ACM have either begun or completed remediation work. covered by the building safety fund, as pointed out by It is also fair to say that the private sector has stepped hon. Members in this debate today. Many buildings up to the plate with respect to ACM, as something like below 18 metres will now be saddled with an unwarranted 50% of the privately held buildings with ACM cladding and unwanted loan on top of interim costs—mortgages, have had the ACM removed as a result of the buildings’ service charges and much more. owners, the developers or the warranty holders acting We were promised details of the Government’s new to replace the cladding. funding at the Budget by the Minister himself, but yet However, we have not stopped there. We recognise again leaseholders were let down. The Chancellor did that there are other forms of dangerous cladding on not even bother to mention cladding or the building high-rise buildings and we have acted to remediate safety crisis. Will the Minister take the opportunity those through the building safety fund. Something like today to do what the Chancellor did not do and provide 500 registered buildings with other types of unsafe 141WH Residential Leaseholders and Interim 10 MARCH 2021 Residential Leaseholders and Interim 142WH Fire Safety Costs Fire Safety Costs cladding are now proceeding with a full application to addition to its announcement last November, that the that fund, but we have not stopped there, either. We scope of the EWS1 form is going to be significantly have allocated £3.5 billion to remediate all buildings reduced so that in total nearly 1 million households will above 18 metres that have unsafe cladding, an investment now no longer have to face an EWS1 form and are that totals over £5.1 billion. I suspect that when all of effectively de-scoped from the risks that they had previously the taxpayer funds are added up, significantly more thought they might face—we are trying, I think successfully, money will be spent by the taxpayer to remediate this to persuade the risk industry and the lending sector that problem. they need to get risk, lending and valuation back into I would also like to explain why 18 metres is the proper proportion. They must put aside the “computer threshold trigger. It is because it is right that we prioritise says no” approach, properly assess the risk of buildings those buildings that represent the greatest risk to residents and their fire hazard, and properly ascribe value to in the event of a fire. Home Office analysis shows that them again, so that people living in those properties can buildings between 18 and 30 metres in height are four get on with their lives. We are confident that as a result times more likely to suffer a fire with fatalities or serious of that package the risk and lending industry will do casualties than any other apartment building. Building that, and that we can begin to move on—and the people standards become more restrictive over 18 metres; the in those homes can begin to move on. presumption on firefighting tactics changes over 18 metres. We have also discussed interim measures in the debate. It is a well-established boundary used by the National I am grateful to the hon. Member for Vauxhall for Fire Chiefs Council in its operational guidance, it is addressing the point so eloquently. As I said, public used by the Building Research Establishment, and it is safety is our first priority. We want to target funding used in the independent expert guidance that we have where it is needed most, removing and replacing unsafe received. cladding to make the homes and the people who live in Why cladding? It is because we know that it acts as a them safer more quickly. We have followed the National fire accelerant and that is of greatest risk in high-rise Fire Chiefs Council’s guidance to support the installation blocks. That is a fact noted in the independent report by of waking watch or a common fire alarm where we need Dame Judith Hackitt and the independent advisory to ensure there are proper measures in place to guard panel, to which Dame Judith spoke in a newspaper against tragedy in the event of fire. However, we are also article, again just a few weeks ago. That is why we focus clear that those measures are a short-term strategy. on cladding and why we focus on buildings over 18 metres They are a vital first step in ensuring that a building in height. remains safe, but not an alternative—there is no A number of right hon. and hon. Members asked alternative—to remediation. That is the reason we have questions during the debate. My hon. Friend the Member spent so much time and are disbursing so much money for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) asked for some to ensure that the problem is properly resolved. clarification on what is covered by the remediation As we have heard, too many waking watches have package that we have tabled. I can tell him that the been in place for far too long. Leaseholders are being remediation package includes works that are integral to left to pick up often exorbitant bills. Data has shown the safe remediation and removal of cladding on buildings that the most cost-effective means of protecting residents’ that are at risk, so it includes such things as fire cavity safety is through a fire alarm system. That, again, is barriers. They, too, are included in the package, if they evidence-based, and guidance is published by the National need to be remediated as part of the safe removal of the Fire Chiefs Council. That is why we are providing unsafe cladding. £30 million for the costs of installing an alarm system in high-rise buildings—again following the guidance of The right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Dame Judith Hackitt and others—which have waking Benn) asked whether I would clarify that no leaseholder watch systems, where the costs are being passed on to will be required to fund additional works as a condition residents; because those buildings have the highest risk of receiving Government funding for cladding remediation. and those residents face the highest costs. The fund I was pleased to answer a similar question that he had opened on 31 January in all areas except for private tabled in written form and I am pleased to confirm here sector buildings in . The deadline for in the Chamber that, as I said then, no leaseholder will applications is 14 March and the objective is to install be required to fund additional works as a condition of those alarms as quickly as possible. receiving Government funding for cladding remediation. I hope that that answer helps the right hon. Gentleman. In contradiction to what the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) said, we are moving quickly to The hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth disburse those funds: £22 million has already been (Stephen Doughty) asked whether we are engaged with delivered to local or regional authorities, because they the devolved Assemblies in Scotland and Wales. Yes we are best placed to know the buildings that most need are, and we will continue to discuss the Building Safety local support. In London, subject to a mayoral decision, Bill with them; I think we meet them on a monthly basis the Greater London Authority will administer the fund to do so. in Greater London, and the fund will open to private The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Apsana sector buildings in London on 18 March. We felt it was Begum) asked about leaseholders who are also freeholders, wrong to delay the implementation of the fund and wait and whether they would be able to benefit from the for London, which of course has the largest number of waking watch fund. The answer is yes. high-rise and at-risk buildings. We did not think that As a result of the package that we have pulled other areas should have to wait. In Birmingham and the together—as a result of the £5.1 billion in public money west midlands, for example, Mayor has that we are spending, the tax and levy that we will been quick on the case, and other authorities have done impose on the developers, and the Royal Institution of the same, so I encourage the GLA and the Mayor of Chartered Surveyors’ announcing a few days ago, in London to take advantage of the funds and disburse 143WH Residential Leaseholders and Interim 10 MARCH 2021 144WH Fire Safety Costs [Christopher Pincher] Automatic Computer-based Decisions: Legal Status them as quickly as possible, to ensure that the people of London who are facing exorbitant waking watch costs can take advantage of this opportunity. 11 am The hon. Member for Vauxhall also talked about the Darren Jones (Bristol North West) (Lab): I beg to number of eligible buildings in London. We are taking move, sensible, clear advice, and the National Fire Chiefs That this House has considered the legal status of automatic Council has identified 400 buildings across the country computer-based decisions. that are at risk of fire and in need of support for waking It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, watch remediation, 216 of which are in London. That is Mr Hollobone. I should apologise to a number of viewers why we are confident that the £30 million we have of the debate for advertising its start time as 10.30 am, allocated will be sufficient to deal with the challenge of as opposed to 11 am. I would like to blame Microsoft waking watch in those high-rise buildings where the Outlook, but in fact it was entirely my own fault. costs are being passed on to the leaseholder. I should also declare my interests. I am the chair of There is a shared desire across the House to ensure the Institute of Artificial Intelligence, which brings that residents are safe in their homes, and that leaseholders together legislators from around the world to discuss are protected from unaffordable costs. That is why we the implications of regulation of artificial intelligence. introduced the scheme and the generous financial package As Chair of the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy to support leaseholders in buildings less than 18 metres. Committee, I call attention to our currently suspended I suspect that the announcements made by RICS in the but still live inquiry into the Post Office Horizon scandal, past several months will also support them, and that the which I shall refer to today. Lastly, I draw attention to lending industry and risk industry, getting itself back the fact that I used to be employed as a solicitor with a into proper proportion, will also support them. law firm now called Womble Bond Dickinson, which These debates are vital as we work together to protect represented the Post Office on the Horizon issue, but leaseholders, so I thank the hon. Lady again for raising confirm that I did not personally act for the Post Office the issue and for speaking so passionately and eloquently on that issue. I should also thank Paul Marshall, a in support of her constituents. I thank all other right at Cornerstone , whose note to me hon. and hon. Members for doing the same. This is a has underpinned much of my contribution today, and crucial issue for us. We will continue to address it and Stephen Mason, a research fellow at the University of we will bring forward the building safety Bill as soon as London’s Institute for Advanced Legal Studies, and his possible. colleagues for their analysis. The Minister knows that I come to the debate as a 10.52 am technology evangelist—someone who advocates harnessing Florence Eshalomi: I am grateful to right hon. and the potential of technology to modernise our economy hon. Members for their contributions; all raised excellent and our public services. There is, of course, a much points. That highlights the consensus of all Members wider debate about the need to update our laws and across the House. regulations, and indeed how we run government, due to the technological revolution, but today I will focus on I thank the Minister for his comments, but respectfully, the specific and important issue of how the law of his argument about prioritising the high cost of remediation evidence applies to automated computer-based decisions. work is a sideshow,a false economy and morally bankrupt. That has wide-ranging implications across the public We need to look at how we can help our constituents and private sector. now. These interim costs will not go away. I look forward to writing to him to highlight some of the questions I The case of the Post Office’s failed private prosecution posed. of more than 1,000 sub-postmasters for accounting errors created by a computer system and not by the Question put and agreed to. sub-postmasters resulted in what looks to be one of the Resolved, largest miscarriages of justice in our country—a tragedy That this House has considered residential leaseholders and for our justice system, but also a personal tragedy for interim fire safety costs. thesub-postmastersinvolvedandtheirfamilies,allstemming from a computer system. I understand that one victim 10.53 am of the Post Office Horizon scandal pleaded guilty to Sitting suspended. false accounting merely because she had been overwhelmed by the errors and because she could not face the prospect of a jury trial for theft, which was being threatened by the Post Office at the time.Another was wrongly imprisoned when eight weeks pregnant. I stress this point because computer-based decisions can lead not only to not getting a credit card but to untold human suffering in the face of miscarriages of justice. That is just one example. As the Minister knows, automated computer-based decision making is more and more widespread with every passing year. The problem is that computer systems are not continuously reliable; latent errors can occur frequently. Achieving reliability in a computer system in the first place is difficult; it is even harder to assess and 145WH Automatic Computer-based 10 MARCH 2021 Automatic Computer-based 146WH Decisions: Legal Status Decisions: Legal Status assure that reliability on an ongoing basis. Indeed, “we have a window of opportunity to get this right and ensure artificial intelligence, in its capacity as a general-purpose that these changes serve to promote equality, not to entrench technology across every aspect of our economy, means existing biases.” that the number of decisions coming from software-based That is important, because if we are to harness the full systems will increase and increase, both in the private potential of technology in our economy, the public need sector and in the delivery of public services. The Minister, to have confidence in the way in which it is being used, of course, understands that. The Centre for Data Ethics and that there are appropriate rights of redress for and Innovation, which is part of his Department, published those who fall foul of it. a report only last year on algorithmic decision making, I understand that the Under-Secretary of State for which concluded: Justice, the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk) “We must ensure decisions can be scrutinised, explained and has also been engaging with this issue and has referred challenged so that our current laws and frameworks do not lose the matter to the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Burnett of effectiveness, and indeed can be made more effective over time.” Maldon, in his capacity as chair of the Criminal Procedure However,the fact is that, as highlighted in the judgments Rule Committee. The reason I asked for a debate with of Mr Justice Fraser in the Post Office Horizon case of the Digital team is my belief that this is broader than an Bates v. Post Office, our laws are dramatically out of issue merely for the Criminal Procedure Rule Committee. date. This is evidenced by the very nature of the dates of I am therefore calling on the Minister to use the powers the legislation involved for criminal issues, such as the of the Government Department responsible for digital Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999. We all and technology issues to refer this matter to the Law recognise, of course, that technology has moved on a Commission for formal consideration. I look forward great deal since then. That Act repealed section 69(1) of to hearing his response. the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, which until its repeal meant that computer-derived documents could 11.8 am not be used as evidence unless it could be shown that, at The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, all material times, the computer was operating properly. Culture, Media and Sport (Matt Warman): I congratulate At the time, the Law Commission recommended the the Chair of the Select Committee on securing this repeal because of concerns that it was increasingly important debate. He is absolutely right to say that the difficult to meet that threshold—in other words, in potential of technology to enhance the decision-making 1999 it was increasingly difficult to show that a computer process, in the public sector just as much as the private was operating properly at material times. sector, is something that this Government are absolutely The change in the law left an absence of formal committed to not only getting the maximum out of, but statutory guidance, resulting in the courts applying to getting right as well. He is also absolutely right to computers the presumption of being properly functioning highlight that legislation from decades ago is perhaps traditional machines. In practice, that means that a not 100% where we would wish it to be. party can rely on the presumption that a computer was First, let me say that I share the concerns raised by operating reliably at all material times—that is to say, him and other Members about the specific example he that the computer was always right. It is for the objector—in has raised and the treatment of postmasters, who are the Post Office case, the sub-postmaster—to prove that vital members of the community, in this whole affair. I the computer was not operating reliably. This is perhaps also acknowledge that it highlights essential legal issues. an obvious point, but in my view that results in an I will address those shortly, although I should perhaps unacceptable imbalance of power. start by saying that he has been comprehensive in his The owners of computer-based decisions are usually own circumnavigation of the issues at hand. big companies or the state. An advanced computer On Horizon, the Government recognise that the dispute system is not the same as a factory-floor machine. In has had a hugely damaging effect on the lives of the contrast, the objectors are employees, customers or affected postmasters and their families. Its repercussions citizens who have no real prospect of being able to are still being felt today. Over the years, the Horizon prove that a computer system owned by a company or accounting system recorded shortfalls in cash in branches. the Government was not operating reliably. That has At the time, the Post Office believed that those shortfalls very wide-ranging implications. were caused by postmasters, leading to dismissals, recovery If people found it difficult to prove a computer was of losses and, in some cases, criminal prosecution. operating reliably in the early 1990s, we can only imagine Many hon. Members, me included, have listened to the how difficult it might be to do that today, not least when stories of the postmasters affected and have been deeply machine-learning algorithms come to conclusions for moved by the impact on their livelihoods, their finances reasons even the computer programmer does not and often their health. understand. If the Post Office had been required to A group of 555 of those postmasters, led by former prove that its computer system was operating reliably, it postmaster Alan Bates, brought a group litigation claim would not have been able to do so, because we now against the Post Office in 2017. In the findings of know that it was not, and sub-postmasters would not Mr Justice Fraser, it is clear just how wrong the Post have been wrongly imprisoned. The legal presumption Office was in its relationship with postmasters and that that a computer is always right is therefore unsafe and there were clear failings in the Horizon system. As I will liable to cause significant harm and injustice. explain, the Government are taking steps through an I am not suggesting a return to the pre-1999 approach, independent inquiry to ensure that lessons are learned but we need to find a new way to manage the risk and and that a full analysis takes place. update our laws appropriately. As the Centre for Data The Post Office reached a full and final settlement Ethics and Innovation said in its algorithmic decision- with the group litigation claimants in December 2019 making report, and apologised for its failings. That settlement was an 147WH Automatic Computer-based 10 MARCH 2021 Automatic Computer-based 148WH Decisions: Legal Status Decisions: Legal Status [Matt Warman] The UK GDPR contains provisions for protecting the interests of data subjects and their data. In particular, important step towards addressing the wrongs of the data protection impact assessments are mandatory for past, but it was only the start of a long journey for the data processing that is high risk and require organisations Post Office to repair and strengthen its relationship to weigh up the impacts on privacy of data processing with postmasters. activities, including automated decision making. As part of the settlement, the Post Office agreed to In addition, the Government have introduced non- set up the historical shortfall scheme, open to current legislative tools that will be important as we move and former postmasters who may have experienced and towards a world where not just algorithms but the repaid Horizon shortfalls but did not participate in the ability for computers to amend algorithms—artificial group litigation. That is an important step in ensuring intelligence—become more commonplace. Let me run that all those who were affected have the opportunity to through some of them. We were the first Government seek resolution. to publish a data ethics framework, which is a set of A number of postmasters with criminal convictions principles to guide the design of appropriate data use in have applied to the Criminal Cases Review Commission the public sector, aimed at anyone working with data in to have their cases referred for appeal. To date, the the public sector. We published an ethics, transparency commission has referred 51 cases either to the Court of and accountability framework for automated decision Appeal or to the Crown court. The Government welcome making, and we have commissioned the Government the decision made by the Crown court in December Digital Service to deliver the review of artificial intelligence 2020 to overturn six of those convictions. adoption in the public sector. We have also published an AI guide for Government. However, a number of cases—42 in total—are still to be heard in the relevant Appeal Court at the end of There are also published guidelines on AI procurement March. It would not be appropriate for the Government in collaboration with the World Economic Forum’s to comment on those cases while the courts are still Centre for the Fourth Industrial Revolution. It will considering them, but I assure hon. Members that the inform and empower buyers in the public sector, helping Post Office is co-operating with the commission to the them to evaluate suppliers and then confidently and fullest extent. responsibly procure the right AI technologies for the benefit of citizens. We have also published, along with More broadly, we must ensure that such a situation the Information Commissioner’s Office and the Alan can never be allowed to occur again. In September Turing Institute, “Explaining decisions made with AI”. 2020, therefore, the Government launched the Post This guidance gives organisations practical advice to Office Horizon IT inquiry, an independent inquiry led help them explain the processes, services and decisions by Sir Wyn Williams. Sir Wyn’s inquiry will work to delivered or assisted by AI to the individuals affected by understand fully what happened, gather available evidence them. That is a crucial action that the hon. Member for and ensure that lessons have been learned so that this Bristol North West mentioned. cannot occur again. The inquiry will look specifically at Those various documents are updated with new thinking whether the historical shortfall scheme is being delivered and insight from our public sector, civil society, industry properly. The Government look forward to receiving and academic partners. We have also launched the new that report in the summer. AI dynamic purchasing system, which is a framework In recent years, however,a lot has changed on standards that offers public sector customers a direct route to AI and ethics relating to the management of algorithms services in an emerging market, addressing ethical and data in general. The hon. Member for Bristol considerations when organisations buy AI services for North West (Darren Jones) rightly pointed out the use in the public sector. work of the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation. The new and independent Regulatory Horizons Council Crucially, that centre has not only “data ethics” but has been appointed to scan the horizons for new “innovation” in its title—those two things go hand in technological innovations and provide the Government hand. with impartial, expert advice on the regulatory reform The centre was established by my Department in required to support their rapid and safe introduction. 2017, but that is not the only area in which we have More broadly, the Government are always monitoring implemented change. Substantial steps have been taken how algorithms and data affect people’s lives. As they to consider and address deficiencies in the application grow in importance in all our lives, we will consider of algorithms where that lies within the remit of the what more we can do. That is why we are active in the DCMS and, crucially, beyond. I am confident that we international debates on algorithm and artificial intelligence are in a much stronger position than when the worst regulations at the Council of Europe and, beyond that, excesses of the Horizon affair took place, but there is at the OECD and in the Global Partnership on Artificial more work to do. Intelligence. If an automated decision is based on personal data, The hon. Gentleman specifically asked whether the the UK general data protection regulation already applies. status of algorithms in the courts might be referred to It provides regulatory tools to safeguard data subjects the Law Commission, especially given the role played and identified or identifiable persons in automated decision by the commission in first adjusting the Police and making. Organisations processing personal data must Criminal Evidence Act 1984 on this topic. It is a suggestion also adhere to strong transparency requirements. worth very serious consideration, and my colleagues in Organisations, including public authorities, should ensure the Ministry of Justice and I are grateful for it. He will that the algorithms they deploy and procure, where know that it is not in the Law Commission’s current based on personal data, generate sound and impartial three-year plan of work, and it will take considerable decisions, and that that should be considered before time to establish the necessary work in order to address such algorithms are used. the underlying legal issue. 149WH Automatic Computer-based 10 MARCH 2021 150WH Decisions: Legal Status While we consider that route, the Government are Maternal Mental Health also investigating whether there may be faster methods that we can use to address the legal status of algorithms in a court of law—the hon. Gentleman mentioned that [MR LAURENCE ROBERTSON in the Chair] himself. For example, once the Court of Appeal has made a determination in respect to the Criminal Cases [Relevant Documents: The impact of Covid-19 on maternity Review Commission, the judiciary Criminal Procedure and parental leave, First Report, HC 526, and the Rule Committee could consider making changes in this Government’s Response, Second Special Report, HC 770; area. The courts are expected to make their determination e-petition 306691, entitled Extend maternity leave by shortly, after which I look forward to taking up the 3 months with pay in light of Covid-19; e-petition 331261, matter with the Ministry of Justice and the Lord Chief entitled Issue urgent guidance and voucher scheme to save Justice, the chair of that committee. baby and toddler activity sector; and e-petition 551612, entitled Access to specialist mental health support for To close, I thank you, Mr Hollobone, and the hon. bereaved parents after baby loss.] Gentleman. This is the beginning of the next phase in an ongoing debate. It is a hugely important issue, and seizing these opportunities for the benefit of citizens 2.30 pm and everyone around the world is in all our interests. It Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair): I remind hon. will be a complex and involving conversation, and I Members that there have been some changes to normal look forward to having more conversations with the practice in order to support the new hybrid arrangements. hon. Gentleman. Timings of debates have been amended to allow technical arrangements to be made for the next debate. There will Darren Jones rose— also be suspensions between each debate. Members participating physically and virtually must arrive for the Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I am afraid that start of Westminster Hall debates and are expected to the hon. Member does not have the right of reply in remain for the entire debate. If Members attending half-hour debates. I know it is confusing and I am sorry virtually have any technical problems, they should email to be the bearer of bad news, but we enjoyed his initial the Westminster Hall Clerks’ email address. Members contribution. attending physically are asked to clean their spaces Question put and agreed to. before they use them and before they leave the room.

11.19 am 2.31 pm Sitting suspended. Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD): I beg to move, That this House has considered maternal mental health. It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson, and indeed to have Members participating virtually in this afternoon’s debate. Maternal mental health should be among our principal concerns. Pregnancy and birth can be the trigger for poor mental health among those who did not previously suffer from mental health problems, and they are a major factor in the escalation of existing ones. The first two years of a child’s life are vital in their development, and the right support and guidance for families at this time can make a big difference to their long-term outcomes. For many women, becoming a mother presents psychological challenges. They might have experienced conflict or abuse in their own childhoods, which resurface when they contemplate the reality of becoming a parent themselves. They might be used to setting high standards for themselves and derive their sense of worth from their ability to meet them, but find that their baby does not comply with their drive to meet their parenting targets. They might simply be overwhelmed by the awesome responsibility of having another human being entirely dependent upon them, and fear that they do not have what it takes to be able to be an effective parent. Because everybody has had a mother at some point in their lives, we all, knowingly and unknowingly, have formed a picture of what a mother is and what a mother should do. These assumptions about motherhood crowd around every new mother, complicating her own feelings about her new baby and her new role. New motherhood can be extremely lonely, especially in the dark, still hours of the early-morning feeds, and that loneliness creates a fertile space for doubts and anxieties. 151WH Maternal Mental Health10 MARCH 2021 Maternal Mental Health 152WH

[Sarah Olney] “Very limited midwifery care. I didn’t see a midwife at all until I was 28 weeks. No health visitor service whatsoever. Apart from Lockdown has exacerbated so many of these issues. I one very brief phone call, I have had no contact from a health asked for today’s debate so that we can talk about the visitor. My baby has not been weighed since 10 days old, and they are now almost six months. Overall, my pregnancy experience has impact of covid on the mental health of new mothers, been unnecessarily stressful and left me feeling constantly anxious and to urge the Government to prioritise this as we and unsupported.” come out of lockdown. Loneliness has been a major In my conversations with new mothers in my issue for almost all of us during the past year, but the constituency, many of them brought up how difficult lack of contact has been particularly acute for those they found the lack of professional support. They were who have had babies during this time. I am enormously unable to access guidance about breastfeeding or sleeping, grateful to the parliamentary digital engagement team and unable to ask questions or seek reassurance. Many for organising a survey in advance of this debate to ask of them found that they experienced much greater members of the public for their experiences. We had anxiety about their babies as a result. I have at least one more than 11,000 responses, with some extremely moving case in my constituency where the lack of a physical testimony among them. I thank everybody who took examination led to a major genetic condition being the time to share their experiences, but especially those missed—one in which, tragically, early intervention can whose experiences were difficult and painful. make a significant difference to the quality of life. The overwhelming theme of the responses was how The survey we conducted found that, of those mothers difficult isolation had made the experience of giving who had received an online consultation, 60% said they birth and caring for a newborn. I was particularly were not affected, compared with only 3% who said struck by the experience of Zilia from the south-east they were affected. I have spoken to the Institute of when she told us: Health Visiting and the Royal College of Psychiatrists, “All appointments attended alone and in sterile conditions. and they have confirmed to me how vital such face-to-face Childbirth alone, no visitors in hospital, no family able to meet support is for new mothers in the first weeks. The value your newborn and help you out thereafter. Just the most isolating of the home visit is that the mother does not need to and lonely experience I have been through.” identify the need for help and then go out and seek it for Reflecting on my own experiences, I overcame the herself; someone comes to her and asks her how she is. early challenges of motherhood with a combination of A trained and experienced health visitor can observe a supportive partner present at the birth, a delighted mother and baby and identify whether additional support family who rallied round with practical help, professional is needed. That kind of support cannot be replicated on health support delivered through home visits, and a Zoom or over the phone. Furthermore, as the Royal peer group of other new mothers in the neighbourhood. College of Psychiatrists has highlighted to me, it is To have been denied any one of those would have made much harder to identify whether there are issues of the job of adjusting to motherhood considerably harder. domestic violence or coercive control between a mother We now have thousands of mothers battling through and her partner when contact is one-dimensional. the early months of motherhood without having had The impact of perinatal mental illness can have long- any of those essential forms of support, and this has lasting impacts on families. Stephanie from the east taken its toll on their mental health. midlands told our survey: This is how Emily from Scotland describes the impact “I have previously not had any mental health issues, but I have on her: really struggled with my mental health since having my baby. I have severe anxiety and now perinatal OCD. I have intense fear “My mental health is awful. I have never felt so lonely or and stress about leaving my child, and I am not receiving anywhere isolated. I shielded from March until June last year and saw near enough support.” nobody for my second trimester other than my husband. My husband’s family are yet to meet our baby, who is our first, and he The long-term societal cost of perinatal mental ill health is coming up to six months old. I have developed post-natal OCD, is estimated at £8.1 billion annually for each one-year which is horrendous, and I am still waiting for professional help cohort of births, and about three quarters of that is the to cope with this.” cost of the impact on children. The financial value of Other covid-19 factors that have worsened the experience early interventions to support struggling families is for new mothers in lockdown are financial uncertainty, clear, and there is also the very human value of building lack of access to childcare, and bereavement. The industries loving and supportive families. worst hit by the lockdown employ a large proportion of We already have the structures and mechanisms to females. Some 20% of mothers have lost their jobs provide support through the health visiting service. I during the pandemic, compared with 13% of fathers. should declare an interest here: my mother was a health The closure of schools has left many mothers trying to visitor for many years, so I have learned at first hand juggle home schooling for older children with looking from her about when a friendly knock on the after a newborn, and many families are dealing with the door made all the difference to an overwhelmed new trauma of losing family members to covid. mother.However,it is a service that was already chronically The impact of the pandemic has changed the way underfunded and understaffed before the pandemic that we all access healthcare, as resources are prioritised took hold. There has been a 31% decrease in the health towards emergency admissions and efforts are made to visiting workforce since 2015, and many local authorities reduce contact. In some parts of our healthcare system, target their scarce resources at those deemed most at risk. it has led to an increase in digital and telephone I believe that only a universal health visiting service consultations. In many parts of the country, this has can properly identify and support mothers who are included perinatal care. Many of the respondents to the suffering from poor perinatal mental health, and that survey reported receiving follow-up care in this way, the Government should allocate sufficient resources to including Jennifer in the west midlands, who reported: enable this to happen. We need better mental health 153WH Maternal Mental Health10 MARCH 2021 Maternal Mental Health 154WH support for all ages and stages, and better training called them a safety valve where completely new mums, throughout our health service to identify and support in particular, learn from other mums—either new mums those who are struggling, but providing support to new or experienced mums—and the babies interact too. It mothers should be a priority, because of the long-term was interesting that, for colleagues who gave birth during impacts that their poor mental health can have on the the lockdown, it was several months before their babies development of their children and on the rest of their family. were actually able to meet another baby, and there was a The first step is to address the shortage of health bit of a shock factor there. We perhaps underestimate visitors. There cannot be quality service provision when the impact of that social contact from the very earliest 65% of health visitors have case loads of more than 500 stages after a child is born. children each. We also need to urgently address the In particular, as the hon. Lady mentioned, there is staffing shortage among midwives, who have a critical the isolation from health professionals on a face-to-face role to play in supporting women’s emotional wellbeing basis. I know that there have been a lot of substitute during pregnancy, childbirth and beyond. The Royal virtual visits, but they are not a substitute and they must College of Midwives has found that there is currently a not become the norm. We need to build back our health shortage of 3,000 midwives. Alongside that, we need to visitor numbers, as we did so well in the coalition increase training and specialist mental health support Government between 2010 and 2015, when we produced for midwives, so they are well equipped to deliver the 4,200 additional health visitors, who were absolutely necessary support. invaluable. They are the friendly face that new parents The pandemic has forced us to use digital tools in will welcome across a threshold, where they may be every area of our lives. We may find that we continue to more suspicious of a social worker or other care workers. use some of them even after face-to-face contact is They are also an early warning system for problems that possible again. If I could make one plea to the Minister, may be going on with a new parent and ultimately any however, it would be that we should not allow digital safeguarding issues. and telephone perinatal check-ups to become the new A report that the First 1001 Days Movement produced accepted standard. The Government should fund and last year, called “Working for babies”, said that services resource home visits by health visitors to all new mothers supporting nought to twos were highly depleted during so that we can properly address the issue of maternal the first spring lockdown last year. The majority of mental health. services for nought to twos did not bounce back quickly as lockdown measures were eased. We need to make 2.40 pm sure that mistake is not made again this time. Tim Loughton ( and Shoreham) (Con): This lockdown has been especially stressful for first-time It is good to see you in the Chair, Mr Robertson, in this mums, single mums, and families having to balance new Chamber, which is a first for us all. I congratulate working remotely, new forms of working and working the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) on covid-safely, and juggling home schooling if they have securing the debate. It is good that we have had a other children too—thank goodness all my children are number of debates in recent months about maternal above school age and we have not had that additional challenges during the pandemic, the impact on families challenge. Even before the covid pandemic, at least one and the impact on the mental health of parents and in six mums suffered from some form of perinatal children. There is little that is more important, frankly. mentalillness—commonlyanxietydisordersanddepression. It is something that we will have to spend a lot of time Weknow that the pandemic and lockdown have impacted concentrating on as we build out of the pandemic in the on the mental health of just about everybody, but coming months. particularly on that cohort of mums. Let me declare my interests. I am chair of the all-party A survey by the excellent baby charity Bliss found parliamentary group for conception to age two: first that, among its members who had received neonatal 1001 days. Given the hon. Lady’s comments, I think we care during the pandemic, 90% of parents said they felt have a new recruit. If she is not already one of our more isolated as a result of having a baby in neonatal members, I would be delighted to welcome her along. It care during the pandemic; 70% said their mental health is a very active group. I also chair the all-party group for was negatively affected as a result of the experience; children, and until recently I was the chairman of 56% said the mental health of their partner and wider trustees of the Parent-Infant Foundation charity, which family had been affected; and 47% said they were not concentrates on the initial 1,001 days and the attachment offered support for their mental health while their baby between parent carers and their children. was in neonatal care. We know that, in extremis, suicide is the biggest cause of maternal death. We must do so I was impressed by the response from the digital much more to ensure that women do not get in that teams in the House. It was a very good exercise. As the position and that support is there and accessible. hon. Lady said, 11,265 responses is not to be sniffed at. Alas, the responses were all too familiar. We have heard The shortage of health visitors is a false economy. I similar anecdotes from our constituents about what has have always said that; we had a debate specifically on been going on during lockdown. There were responses that last year. I pay tribute in particular to Cheryll about parents, and particularly mums, feeling lonely. Adams, who set up and has led the Institute of Health They feel isolated in hospital, particularly if they have Visiting. She is retiring at the end of the month. The to stay in for any length of time because of complications. service she has given to that area has been extraordinary They have problems even getting their partners—the and has informed many debates in this place. I put on fathers—to be able to visit them. They feel isolated the record our thanks and gratitude to her. from family support networks that we normally take There is also the whole issue of increased domestic from granted. They feel isolated from new mum and abuse during pregnancy. The figure that I always find baby groups. One of the respondents to the survey hard to take on board is that a third of domestic abuse 155WH Maternal Mental Health10 MARCH 2021 Maternal Mental Health 156WH

[Tim Loughton] themselves. Again, we underestimate the impact of becoming a father, particularly for the first time, on the happens during pregnancy as well, and we know that mental health of dad. In most cases this is a joint domestic abuse has gone up during the pandemic, so all partnership, but fathers often get overlooked. They the additional pressures on women who are about to often get excluded from the whole neonatal process give birth or who have just given birth are extraordinary. within hospitals, as well. They need looking after too, The cost of perinatal mental illness, as calculated by because if they can be looked after, they can look after the Maternal Mental Health Alliance some years ago—it their partner and there is a mutual benefit from all of still holds true, and today it is probably an underestimate— that. We need to do more for fathers. was £8.1 billion each and every year. On top of that, the The NHS long-term plan includes a commitment to cost of child neglect is £15 billion, so we as taxpayers expand access to evidence-based parent-infant interventions are paying £23 billion-plus into the health service to get within specialist perinatal mental health services, which it wrong. To prevent us getting it wrong, if we spent a is indeed welcome. It will ensure that attention is given fraction of that on the support services—the health to the parent-infant relationship alongside the mother’s visitors and those networks—being there in the first own mental health when mothers have moderate or place, that would be money well spent and well saved. severe mental health problems. We must not just look at Of course, the key is good attachment between babies the child or the mum in isolation; we are looking at the and their parents or primary carers from those very bonded family. earliest stages and during conception, hence the founding However, access to mental health services for babies of the First 1001 Days Movement. My right hon. Friend should be dependent on the risks to their mental health the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea and not contingent on other factors, such as their Leadsom) launched the 1,001 critical days manifesto mother’s mental health needs. So, the NHS long-term back in, I think, 2012, which was signed up to by colleagues plan for England also committed to improving access to across parties, the royal colleges, clinicians, academics specialist services for all children from 0 to 25, but and children’s charities alike. It is still relevant today. delivering that commitment requires specialist provision To quote research by the First 1001 Days Movement for all babies who need it, as they are children, too. Such and the Parent-Infant Foundation—I pay tribute in provision would need to be delivered by parent-infant particular to Sally Hogg, who does so much of the good specialists. However,the NHS long-term plan says nothing work there—it is estimated that 10% to 25% of young explicitly about specialist mental health services for the children experience significantly distorted relationships youngest children in their own right. with their main carer or carers, and from that a range of The solution is that we need specialised parent-infant poor social, emotional and educational outcomes in relationship teams providing therapeutic support where childhood and across the life course can be predicted. a baby’s development is most at risk due to severe, Maternal mental illness in pregnancy and the early complex and/or enduring difficulties in their relationships. years of a child’s life can have adverse effects on the Such teams focus on the relationship between a baby child’s brain development and long-term outcomes. and his or her parents or care-givers as the main way to Maternal mental illness can affect children both directly improve infant mental health. However, there are fewer and indirectly. For example, exposure to stress hormones than 40 specialised parent-infant relationship teams in in the womb is thought to affect the child’s developing the whole of the UK, and most babies live in an area stress response systems, and mental illness after birth where these services just do not exist; vast areas of the can affect a mother’s ability to care for her baby, her country have no provision. parenting style and her developing relationship with her One of the aims of the Parent-Infant Foundation baby. Even relatively mild mental illness, if untreated, charity, which was set up by the right hon. Member for can inhibit a mother’s ability to provide her baby with South Northamptonshire, is setting up parent-infant the sensitive, responsive care that they need. projects around the country, where practitioners are This, again, is a statistic that I always use. If a 15 or available, to work on the attachment of parents and 16-year-old teenager is suffering from some form of their children. We just need it to be mainstream across depression or low-lying mental illness, there is a the whole of the . 99% likelihood that that child’s mother suffered some As the Royal College of Psychiatrists has said, the form of perinatal mental illness—the connection is that need for more perinatal psychiatrists to work in these close. So why are we not doing more to support the services is crucial. These specialist services need a highly mother before and soon after she gives birth? The trained specialist workforce, but the workforce census implications of not doing so will be with her child and in 2019 showed that 13% of consultant and perinatal her for many years to come, and often into adulthood psychiatrist positions remained unfilled. Without more for the child. psychiatrists, ambitious plans to transform and expand It is also important to note that although perinatal services will be put at risk. mental illness increases the risk of disruptions in early We are soon to have the Leadsom review, if I may call relationships, they are not inevitable. Some mothers can it that; it does not really ring true as “the South continue to give their babies the sensitive, responsive Northamptonshire review”. The right hon. Member for care they need, particularly with the right support—and South Northamptonshire is producing the review; hopefully good, effective support can be had, if it is available. it will be published later this month. I have been privileged That is the problem: it is not always there, or not always to play a part in it, and chaired a parliamentary advisory there at the right time or in the right place. group. Other risk factors put early relationships and infant Absolutely key to that review are a joined-up support mental health at risk, including families where fathers service between the NHS, local government and other or other care-givers have serious mental health problems key professionals, to give that wraparound service to 157WH Maternal Mental Health10 MARCH 2021 Maternal Mental Health 158WH parents in those crucial early months and years; a My husband simply wasn’t able to make it in time. If he’d been digital record, so that all those professions are working able to stay on the ward I would have had his much needed from the same information, rather than every visit to support through labour. As it was, I have had to recover mentally mum being a new visit; and a national template of the from a fairly traumatic experience. quality that we need to reach, but with local implementation, And yet...I brought the twins home while everyone was still so that a service in Richmond, although it may look a ‘eating out to help out’. How can this be right? Why do women’s bit different from a service in my part of the world on and particularly mothers’ needs fall so far down the Government’s priority list?” the coast, is none the less required to produce quality outcomes and clear the same threshold. Nina’s story and many others show the profound We look forward to that report in the coming weeks impact that the pandemic has had. In September, the and months, and I very much hope that the Government Government allowed families with a child under one to will take it on board and produce the goods, because form a support bubble and the NHS now allows the little, if anything, is more important than the welfare, birth partner to be present during labour and the birth, good health and good mental health of our children. but for many families those changes came too late. The And a child is given the very best opportunity—the best Government must be ambitious in their plans to support start in life—if their parents are in a safe and stable the babies born in lockdown and their families. That place as well. will be a huge task. For example, if health visitors are to catch up with the huge backlog in missed face-to-face Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair): In order to call appointments and provide a full service, proper funding everyone, I wonder if I might ask all Back Benchers to will be needed. They provide an amazing service and stick to around five minutes in their contributions, invaluable support to parents, but about one in five please. were lost between 2015 and 2019 due to public health budget cuts. 2.54 pm As a result, in February, before the pandemic hit, (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab) [V]: I almost a third of health visitors reported that they were thank the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah responsible for between 500 and 1,000 children. The Olney) for securing this important debate today. Institute of Health Visiting considers the optimal maximum Maternal mental health problems are prevalent and for the work to be fully effective to be 250 children. are not talked about often enough. One in five women Similarly, since 2010, cuts of 66% have led to the loss of will develop some form of mental health problem during over 1,000 Sure Start and children’s centres, which their pregnancy or in the year after giving birth, and provide huge support to families, particularly those research suggests that as many as seven in 10 mothers who are vulnerable or hard to reach. Funding needs to will underplay the severity of their feelings, due to be restored, so that there is a one-stop shop for parents stigma surrounding mental health. to get support for themselves and their children. Sadly, all of this has been exacerbated by the impact Early years and nursery providers provide huge support of the pandemic. As someone who has spoken in the House for parents, but according to the Institute for Fiscal about prenatal depression while pregnant with my first Studies, they ran at a significant loss during the first child, this is an extremely important issue for me. lockdown, receiving less than £4 of income for every From a personal perspective, my second child was £5 of costs. In addition, playgroups and baby activities only four months old when we went into the first are often run by small businesses, and restrictions mean lockdown. My plans for baby yoga, music classes and that their doors have largely been shut. I would like the meeting other mums for coffee to get through the sleep Government to look urgently at sector-specific grant deprivation were suddenly out the window. Instead, the funding for early years, to maintain the viability of the ensuing weeks were spent with him mostly in a sling sector as we come out of the pandemic. while I home-schooled the eldest. With much of his It is clear that the added stresses of lockdown and the little life spent in lockdown, his one-year check was pandemic have exacerbated maternal mental health done on the phone, he has not been weighed since he problems. A recent UK-wide study published in the was six weeks old, and I cannot remember the last time Journal of Psychiatric Research found that during the he saw a health visitor. first lockdown, 43% of new mothers met the criteria for Yet I feel lucky: lucky that he was born just before the clinically relevant depression and 61% met the criteria pandemic hit, so my husband was able to be there the for anxiety. Given the consistent evidence that shows whole time I was in labour; lucky that he was my second that postnatal depression and anxiety are linked to a child, so at least I had a vague idea about what I was range of negative outcomes for children’s health, doing; and lucky that we had those four months together development and behaviour, it is imperative that the before going into lockdown. For many of my constituents, Government do everything they can to protect maternal having a baby during lockdown has been incredibly mental wellbeing. challenging. One of my constituents, Nina, wrote to me That begins with many of the measures that I have last autumn: outlined, but also by improving and maintaining access “I was pregnant for the entirety of the first lockdown and had to perinatal mental healthcare. Although NHS resources to attend all scans for the twins I was carrying alone. This was and staff are under huge strain, investment is needed to bearable when I looked around and saw everyone making huge sacrifices. ensure that mental health interventions can be timely and effective to prevent the escalation of symptoms and When I gave birth to the twins in August, continued restrictive rules meant that my husband could not be with me on the labour the formation of a larger burden on the NHS and other ward. Add to the mix a fast-moving induction and I ended up public services. That is not beyond our capabilities, and giving birth to my babies with only midwives I’d never seen before we owe it to the babies born in lockdown and their in the room. families to put that at the top of the agenda. 159WH Maternal Mental Health10 MARCH 2021 Maternal Mental Health 160WH

[SIR EDWARD LEIGH in the Chair] not doing it right, until I broke one day. I saw my GP, and at that point I was diagnosed with postnatal depression. 3 pm Luckily for me, not being in lockdown, I was able to go to group peer support and to meet other mums who (Truro and Falmouth) (Con) [V]: were feeling exactly the same way, so I realised that I I thank the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah was perfectly normal and that it was something I would Olney) for securing this important debate. work through. We have heard some of the shocking figures on It is important that we recognise that that will be a maternal mental health and we have heard about the growing problem because of covid. For a new mum, it is evidence that new mothers have experienced poor maternal all about talking—we want to speak to other new mental health as a result of the pandemic. “Maternal mums, and when we cannot do that, we can get lost in mental health and coping during the COVID 19 lockdown our own head and everything feels a bit worse. in the UK” from the covid-19 new mum study found I have been working cross-party, and with my right that more than half of new mothers reported feeling hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire down, lonely or irritable, and that 71% reported feeling () and my hon. Friend the Member for worried since the beginning of the first lockdown. East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) on the Mental health service guidance from the Royal College early years review, which I am privileged to be a part of of Psychiatrists sets out that perinatal mental health at this late stage. It started its life, as we know, as the care continues to be essential during covid-19, and that review into the first 1001 days. I will not repeat the face-to-face contact will be necessary in some circumstances. words of my hon. Friend, who articulated this work The Government and the NHS have said that mental wonderfully, but I look forward to the review coming, health services, including the specialist perinatal services, hopefully later this month. remain very much open for business during the pandemic, My right hon. Friend the Member for South and that providers have looked to how they can maximise Northamptonshire was quoted as saying that the fact the use of digital and virtual channels. I agree that that that babies have had little social contact during the first is not ideal, but I acknowledge that hospital trusts in lockdown is clearly a bad thing, and that the repercussions difficult circumstances have worked extremely hard to are not yet known. Tackling some of the awful experiences reach out to mums. of babies during lockdown and looking at how families In Cornwall, the Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS can benefit from some of the positive experiences will Trust looks after 4,000 babies and mums every single be at the heart of the review. I look forward to its year. I thank the midwifery team at the RCHT for findings and hope that we can improve conditions for looking after me and both my babies, one surviving and new parents and new babies because of it. thriving and one whom, unfortunately, we lost. The It is my sincere hope that when the new review’s trust has been reviewing visiting continually throughout findings come forward and policies are formulated, all the pandemic, and the latest arrangement of their services parties will take a long-term view of all the important is that birthing partners are now available, that both issues that we are discussing today, and that will come parents may be in neonatal units at any time, and that out as part of the review. I want to ensure that policy partners may now attend the 12-week and 20-week makers cease to use something as vital as the best start scans. If other scans are required, they may also arrange in life for babies and the mental health of mothers as a that. That has come on from where we were during the political football. Hopefully we can formulate something first lockdown, so things are improving. wonderful, so that when we look back at it in 20 years’ International data, from high, middle and low-income time we can all see how successful it has been and be countries, suggests that perinatal illness is more prevalent very proud of it. among rural women. That is the second dimension that I would like to add to today’s debate, if I may. Cornwall 3.5 pm is predominately rural, and the pandemic has absolutely Mrs (Basingstoke) (Con): I commend exacerbated an already hidden issue, bringing it into the the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) for limelight. securing the debate, because the three quarters of a For a new mum who lives rurally, it is very difficult to million women who have given birth during this pandemic access baby groups and other new mums, to share have not only experienced all the challenges that every stories and get peer support, mostly because of woman experiences when they give birth, but have had transportation issues. I agree that all new mums are those problems magnified. Other Members have already suffering those difficulties in lockdown, but it is particularly set out issues around isolation, anxiety and the need for an issue for rural new mums. Often, socioeconomically, proper, professional support, as identified by the excellent rural new mums are on a lower income, so they cannot piece of work done by the Digital Engagement Team afford to get anywhere. It is also difficult for health for the hon. Lady, which all of us who have been new visitors to get out and visit them. mums can really relate to. I can only imagine how much When I was a brand-new mum, I did not get a more these issues can affect people when they have no midwife follow-up appointment; I had a phone call. My family members to call on and no mothers’ group to notes, I think, stated that I was well supported and allow them to pick up personal experience from others absolutely fine, and yet eight months later I was diagnosed who have gone through it before them. with postnatal depression. I did not know that I had Outside of the pandemic, around one in five women postnatal depression; I thought I was tired, that I was experience perinatal mental health problems, which impact not doing it properly and that I was not living up to not only them but their children, and as my hon. Friend being a real mum, and I did not know who to talk to. the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Even though I had close family support, I felt that I was Loughton) said, that can cost the economy some £8 billion 161WH Maternal Mental Health10 MARCH 2021 Maternal Mental Health 162WH every year. I will add to the debate the conditions that when the Government know that probably 50,000 women create a higher likelihood of mental health problems a year lose their job because of how they are treated in emerging in the first place, which according to research the workplace. I ask the Minister to speak to her is particularly stressful life events. colleagues in the Department for Business, Energy and We know that, during the pandemic, people have Industrial Strategy to look at effective broader policies been highly anxious—far more than they might have impacting on pregnant women at work, because one of been otherwise. Indeed, some research suggests that the most effective maternal health policies that the around three in four pregnant women have had significant Government could adopt is stopping women being anxiety, and up to 40% have experienced depression. made redundant in the first place. One of the biggest anxieties for any new parent has to be money—finance, income; making sure that they can Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order.Because Members care for their new family. Most families now have two have gone on beyond five minutes, I have to reduce the working parents, and families depend on both incomes, time limit again, otherwise not everybody will get in. so the fact that more than 50,000 pregnant women a The time limit is now four minutes. year suffer discrimination that leaves them with no option but to leave their job should sound alarm bells, 3.11 pm not only for our economy, but for its potential to trigger Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab) [V]: It is a pleasure to serve mental health problems, depression or anxiety. under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I am glad to Work by organisations such as Maternity Action and have the opportunity to take part in this important Pregnant Then Screwed shows worrying increases in debate, and I begin by congratulating the hon. Member reports of pregnant women losing their jobs during the for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) on securing it. pandemic, and we know that more women have been Most mums look forward to having a baby, and the impacted, in terms of job loss, during the pandemic birth of a child to family, friends and people we know is than in other similar economic events. The reported something that we all greet with joy, pleasure and figure of 50,000 pregnant women each and every year anticipation for the future of the child. We know that leaving their jobs is likely to be the tip of the iceberg, for some women, however, pregnancy and the time after because as well as those reporting leaving their jobs, birth can, sadly, be difficult. They may not have been there will be many more who are silenced from speaking able to talk to people about it when everyone imagines out by non-disclosure agreements. that they are having a happy time. This year, it may have My right hon. Friend the Minister has done so much been more difficult than ever as a result of covid-19 and to support new mothers, but some women are still let the social isolation that it has brought for so many. down in the workplace, so as part of this debate I urge They have not had the support of, or been able to share her to consider employment policies too, particularly the joy and workload with, family and friends, and it given the impact of coronavirus on women’s employment. has been difficult to get the face-to-face support that No matter how good my right hon. Friend is at her job, they really need. Let us not forget that many have lost in terms of putting support in place, if pregnant women out on financial support that has been offered to others, are concerned about losing their jobs, even if they do as the campaigning organisation, Pregnant Then Screwed, not do so—and being pushed out of work is not uncommon has evidenced. in the workplace when women become pregnant—the Low mood, anxiety and depression are common mental job of the Department of Health and Social Care will health problems that occur during pregnancy and in the be severely undermined if these issues are not addressed. year after childbirth. The pain that these conditions Other countries have looked at this closely, and I cause women and their families is significant, as is the believe we can learn from their experiences. Germany, negative impact on their health and wellbeing. The with a similar economy to ours, prohibits making pregnant Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists states women and new mums redundant, for the good of that up to one in five women develop mental health women, their children and their families. I have put into problems during pregnancy or in the first year after a ten-minute rule Bill the idea of adopting the German childbirth, and around a quarter of all maternal deaths laws here in the UK, and I hope that my hon. Friend the between six weeks and a year after childbirth are related Minister will look at it to see whether she could lend it to mental health problems. her support. Sometimes, hearing in this House the lived experience My final point is that mental health problems on the of constituents really brings home the issues that we are arrival of a child do not just impact women. Up to one discussing, and the need to address them. A constituent in four fathers may experience mental health problems of mine has asked me to tell her story. in the year after the birth of a child. It can be difficult “In 2017 I became a Mum for the first time, I knew that I for fathers to manage the transition, and we need to needed to provide for my child but I felt no more attachment than ensure that support is there. In other countries, shared for someone I had just met. I started to Google ‘how to have my parental leave policies, on a use-it-or-lose-it basis, have child adopted’ and felt like I was a failure as a woman. been proven to help fathers with that transition. Will I started to have panic attacks, I’d imagine walls falling on my the Minister look at why we are still awaiting action child, people grabbing her and running away. I would lock myself following the review in the UK of this policy, which in the house and was terrified to be alone. would explicitly help fathers to tackle these difficult It was when I started to record the times that the trains went issues? past my house that realised that I was seriously contemplating suicide. I went to the GP who made an urgent mental health My hon. Friend the Minister has done so much, but referral although it was five months after my child was born that I she needs her colleagues in the Department for Business, actually got any help…and…anything was done. I was diagnosed Energy and Industrial Strategy to do more. It is no with severe post-natal depression and have been receiving help good saying that we have good maternity protections ever since. 163WH Maternal Mental Health10 MARCH 2021 Maternal Mental Health 164WH

[Liz Twist] life are critical in their development, and the stress and trauma of poor maternal mental health has the potential When my second child arrived, I realised just how traumatic severely to impact a child’s life chances. my first experience has been. The shame and anguish have been In parts of the north-east, where my constituency is replaced by joy and love, and I was finally able to have those special moments with the newborn that people romanticise.” located, existing health inequalities mean that some children begin their lives with inferior life chances to Since that time, the local Newcastle Gateshead clinical those from less deprived regions. We simply cannot commissioning group has invested in a specialist perinatal afford to place further obstacles in the way of their mental health service. That provides support, advice development and risk losing a whole generation. As a and planning of care and treatment following delivery, result of the pandemic, we are facing a potential mental reducing the risk of significant illness and the potential health crisis in Britain and maternal mental health is for in-patient care. However, many women are not significant. seeking the help they need, and the pandemic has had a huge impact on loneliness, making those early days so It is unreasonable to suggest that, as a society, we difficult. could experience a collective trauma on this scale without it impacting on mental health. Inevitably, that will be This is an important debate and we must do much challenging, especially when the existing foundations of more to support women struggling with their mental mental health care in the country are already weak. It health, before and after the birth of their child, to allow was therefore incredibly disappointing that health services parenthood to be the joyful, if challenging and tiring, were absent from the Chancellor’s Budget last week. He experience that it should be. could do with learning that the damage to public health from the pandemic will not fix itself. 3.16 pm It seems fitting that the debate is happening in the Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab) [V]: I thank week in which International Women’s Day falls. Not the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) for only have women consistently stepped up to the plate introducing this debate. I declare an interest as co-chair during the pandemic, with little to no reward, but they of the all-party parliamentary group on cerebral palsy have shown resilience in coping with one of life’s toughest Maternal mental health has been one of the hidden challenges—becoming a mam. We owe it to the women impacts of the pandemic. Being a new mam is a special in our constituencies to have the best mental health time for any woman. However,it can also be overwhelming support out there, for what is undoubtedly one of the and generally challenging. In normal times, many women most beautiful yet challenging life experiences they receive support from their family and friends, who are will face. there to offer invaluable guidance. However, for the past year, the public health restrictions needed to tackle 3.16 pm covid-19 have meant that many women have had to Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD) [V]: It is a make this journey on their own. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I had my first child, Maria, at 21. The advice from my I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond mam was crucial in spotting the missed stages in her Park (Sarah Olney) for securing this important debate. early development, which enabled her cerebral palsy It was during a recent Zoom call with friends that the diagnosis to come much sooner than it otherwise would real, current issues affecting maternal mental health have. I cannot put into words how valuable her support struck home for me. [Inaudible.] All of us on the call was following such heart-rending news. It was thanks to with her that evening were both upset for her and my family and friends that I felt confident enough to go inspired by her attitude. As an expectant mother, I had on and have two more children. my family round me—mother, sisters, husband, friends— It strikes me that if Maria had been born during this antenatal classes and the knowledge that there would be pandemic, the personal support I received from my ample post-natal care and support; but in covid-19 that mam and health visitors would have been much more is simply not possible. The impact is the exacerbation of limited. My heart truly goes out to those who have a problem that already, in the best of circumstances, become mothers during the pandemic. I cannot imagine will affect one in five women who give birth. Those the impact that isolation is having on their mental women—it could be any of us—will experience anything health. I worry that sadly some may choose not to from anxiety to obsessive compulsive disorder or post- extend their families in future. traumatic stress disorder. I am sure that each one of us The pandemic has particularly affected those whose in the debate has personal experience of a close friend babies have received neonatal care, with more than or relative who has experienced those problems after 90% of parents who responded to a Bliss survey saying giving birth—perhaps we have even experienced them that they felt more isolated due to having a baby in ourselves. neonatal care during the pandemic, and 70% saying We have come a long way as a society from the time that their mental health was negatively impacted as a when post-natal depression was described almost result of their experience. The situation has not been dismissively as the baby blues, and talked of in hushed helped by the fact that Bliss research also found that tones. We now acknowledge the scale and widespread psychological support for parents experiencing neonatal nature of what many women have to cope with. We have care was inconsistent at best. Around half the parents heard many stories in the debate. However, I do not said they were not offered mental health support during believe that we are adequately responsive, or that we or after this care. provide correct and sufficient care. In the pandemic, we The impact of negative maternal mental health goes know that as with many other issues things are much beyond the parent and is not limited to the short term. worse. Women going into labour at the moment have As we have heard, the first 18 to 24 months of a baby’s not had the benefit of face-to-face antenatal classes, 165WH Maternal Mental Health10 MARCH 2021 Maternal Mental Health 166WH forming bonds with other expectant mothers for common My parliamentary aide, Naomi, who is a busy girl support. They have not had the assurance that their because she does all the speech writing for me, had two partners can be there, or that their closest family and children in a short time. I remember them well. She told friends can visit within a few hours—or take part in me—and she refers to it as her mummy guilt—that her baby groups or have post-natal visits. All of that is eldest had little opportunity to enjoy her own time against the background of lockdown—perhaps a feeling before she became the big sister, almost right away. She of isolation, financial worries or keeping other children also talks about the mummy guilt of working full time. amused, cared for, or home-schooled. Although her parents are able to mind the children, A mother’s poor mental health can affect the future who are well taken care of, the guilt remains that she is outcomes for the child, as we have heard, and that not the one picking them up from school, which is what knowledge must be uppermost in our minds. We have she wants to do. heard stories in the debate of the disruptions to life, and While I can look on objectively and see two lovely, the impact on the mental health of both mother and child. well-adjusted girls, she sees only the things that she feels It is clear that we need to listen to all that, and act. she did not do right and which she thinks she did Listen to the mothers now and in future, about how wrong. I do not believe that is the case, but she feels they are struggling; listen to those who have struggled that. All mums will be able to sympathise with the fact in the past. With no support network, and delays for that lockdown babies are not able to see or interact with treatment, we need to ensure that there is support from others—that is important. When my children were growing healthcare professionals with sufficient training. We up—this is true of my grandchildren too, from what I need funding. We need a system that provides robust, have seen of them so far—I saw their interactions with integrated physical and mental healthcare for new mothers. their wee colleagues at school, and they made friends Maternal mental health must be a priority for the well; they would often hold hands with them in P1 or Government, not only for the future wellbeing of mothers, P2. That is what children do—they need interaction. but for all our children. They are more likely to be parented by the person who is at home with them. I can only imagine the feelings of 3.24 pm isolation and guilt at what the child has missed out on and what would have been felt. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to speak in the debate, Sir Edward. I thank the hon. I was pleased to receive correspondence from one of Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) for bringing my constituents, who wrote to me expressing the feeling forward what is an important issue, and all the right of being robbed of her maternity leave and calling for hon. and hon. Members who have made valuable an extension. I can do nothing but support her in that contributions, setting the scene very well. The matter call. The experience of lockdown for new parents has has been a great concern of mine for many years and I been difficult; no music classes, no parenting groups, no have raised it in the House on several occasions. I have one to reassure them face to face and see if they are probably spoken alongside my colleague and friend, the truly okay. In addition, we must consider parents whose hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim children went to a neonatal unit. The baby charity Bliss Loughton), among others who are here, on almost has conducted a survey of parents whose baby received every occasion when it has been brought forward. neonatal care during the pandemic. I am not going to repeat the figures cited by the hon. Gentleman for East Covid has been difficult for my family, with the loss Worthing and Shoreham, but I remind everyone, including of a much-loved mother-in-law; but we have been blessed the Minister, to look at them. in that time with sunshine in the rain, as we have two beautiful new grandchildren, Max and Freya—both Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. Will the hon. born during lockdown. It is important to have that Gentleman finish? opportunity,as a grandparent, to have grandchildren—and new grandchildren. We are up to five now, so I could Jim Shannon: I support my hon. Friend the Member have a five-a-side mixed football team of boys and for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) and his early-day girls—I look forward very much to that. motion. In conclusion, I am pleased to stand with There was no joyful visit to the hospital. Indeed, the parents asking for the help and support that is needed. first view was through the living-room window and I Give them the support that has been lacking for so long, have not seen the youngest one at all, even from a and let them know that, even when socially distanced, distance. It has always been on the wife’s video. Video they are not alone. calls are wonderful, but there cannot be anything sweeter than holding your grandchild. As tough as it Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Thank you very is for grandparents, it is even more difficult for much. Wenow return to virtual for the SNP spokesperson, parents. That is what we have been trying to say today in Dr Lisa Cameron. the contributions that we are making. No mum or auntie is allowed to come round to help the new mum 3.28 pm get sorted and into the routine; there are no mums or toddler groups to reassure her that she is doing a Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and phenomenal job, that everyone struggles and that sometimes Lesmahagow) (SNP) [V]: It is an absolute pleasure to mum just needs someone to share that with; there are serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I commend endless days in the house with a baby that she is too the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) on frightened to take out into this uncertain world. The bringing this absolutely vital debate to Parliament. It is impact on mums and dads has been vast and we will crucial and could not be more timely. Before I begin, I probably not know the full extent of it in the years to refer to my entry in the register as a clinical psychologist, come. and thank the British Psychological Society and the 167WH Maternal Mental Health10 MARCH 2021 Maternal Mental Health 168WH

[Dr Lisa Cameron] That must also apply to specialist perinatal community teams. In many circumstances, these home visit teams are Maternal Mental Health Alliance for the work that they the first and sometimes the last opportunity to spot have done in this field, among the many other charities maternal mental health issues, and they must include and organisations already referred to. individuals with specialist training in clinical psychology. I thank everyone who has spoken so thoroughly today The British Psychological Society has recommended that on many issues, including the first crucial 1,001 days, every specialist perinatal mental health team should and the importance of digital records, which are essential include clinical psychology and that every woman identified in ensuring continuity of care. I understand that the as requiring a psychological intervention should be offered Government is bringing in support for family hubs in an assessment and treatment with a clinical psychologist future, so I am interested to hear from the Minister more within 28 days. I highlight that recommendation. about that and how it will support this work. Other issues In 2020, the Scottish Government invested £1.4 million that have been raised go to the core of mental health stigma in specialist community perinatal mental health services, and the impact of coronavirus on labour and prenatal care. with an additional £1.5 million for infant mental health Members have spoken eloquently about their own and maternal and neonatal psychological services across personal experiences. It is absolutely crucial to ensure Scotland. I urge the UK Government to set out additional that we normalise wellbeing and mental health issues, support to what has already been promised in the NHS particularly during this most crucial time in people’s long-term plan, in the light of the additional and compound lives, and also give due cognisance to the importance of need that we have heard about in the debate today, ensuring that people can access services when they need which has set out the impact of covid-19. The need has to do so. been exacerbated, and it is crucial that we do not fail families at this time. The first weeks, months and years of parenthood were absolutely some of the most difficult that I have experienced—fraught with sleepless nights, anxiety about 3.34 pm the future and overly high expectations that I placed on Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) (Lab): It is a pleasure myself about the responsibilities of being a new mum. to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward, and it is Support is absolutely crucial at these times, and that has an honour to respond on behalf of the Opposition in just not been available during covid-19. this vital and incredibly moving debate. I thank the hon. Before the coronavirus pandemic, more than one in Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) for securing five women experienced mental health problems during the debate. All contributions have been incredibly valuable pregnancy or in the first post-natal year and, as is true and have highlighted the urgency of focusing attention of so much of our lives in the past year, covid-19 has on maternal health. Debates such as these can go some exacerbated those issues. The Baby Loss Awareness way towards breaking down the stigma that still persists Alliance, led by the charity Sands, found that isolation around mental health and the often harsh reality of increased during lockdown, with feelings of loneliness pregnancy,birthandmotherhood.Itissimplyheartbreaking impacting 63% of new parents—compared with 38% before that suicide is the leading cause of maternal death. the pandemic—and those who had experienced extreme More people are starting to speak up publicly about difficulties during birth. If symptoms are allowed to their experiences, but we need action from the Government. spiral, more severe perinatal mental health issues can be The coronavirus crisis has had a disastrous impact on significant and can have long-term effects on mother, many women. I was honoured to listen to colleagues baby, father and different members of the family. sharing their heartbreaking experiences of baby loss in Research evidence suggests that the long-term cost of a recent debate. My heart breaks for all the women who perinatal depression, anxiety and psychosis in the UK is have had to go through that alone at any time, especially £8.1 billion per year, equivalent to roughly £10,000 for during the pandemic. It is simply inhumane. Will the every single birth in the UK each year. While the Minister outline what mental health support will be financial weight of the failure to help new and expectant offered to women who have experienced baby loss without families is stark, the reality of families having to cope with their partner by their side? Such tragedies have a long-term perinatal mental illness is also heartbreaking, with maternal impact on partners and families, too. Will any support suicide one of the leading causes of death for women be extended to families? We heard described today, very during pregnancy and in the first year after birth. eloquently, the importance of also considering fathers In summing up, I want to highlight two areas to the and other partners in such circumstances. Government where I think the situation can be improved. Within maternity services, there are huge inequalities. First, pharmacological interventions really have to be Black women are four times more likely than white matched with high-quality specialist psychological therapies women to die in pregnancy or childbirth. Pakistani during the perinatal period. Significant steps have been women are more likely to have a premature baby or a taken towards integrated care across the UK and in the neonatal death in the UK compared with their country devolved Governments in the past few years, but much of origin. Women from all ethnic minority groups in the more needs to be done to ensure that maternal mental UK receive fewer home visits from midwives and are health needs are met in whatever context they first present. more likely to give birth by emergency caesarean sections. That might be in maternity services, adult mental health What are the Government doing to address those services, drug and alcohol services, learning disability discrepancies and to ensure that culturally appropriate services or child and adolescent mental health services mental health support is provided? Such racial inequalities that are supporting the whole family. Wherever families are deep rooted and are further entrenched by covid-19. show signs of needing help, they must be able to access People from ethnic minority backgrounds are more specialist psychological therapies as quickly and easily likely to be adversely impacted financially by the pandemic, as possible if we are to ensure the best possible outcome. and the risk of death is much greater. 169WH Maternal Mental Health10 MARCH 2021 Maternal Mental Health 170WH

The Government’s only response so far to those We rely so much on being in playgroups, having other shocking statistics has been to commission further research, mothers and fathers telling us we are doing okay, and but we need action now. The evidence is already clear phoning the breastfeeding helpline at 2 am worried that that there are persistent inequalities in maternity outcomes you cannot make enough milk for your baby and having and experiences, and that discrimination bias and a lack someone say, “Don’t worry. We can get a health visitor of cultural understanding are driving that. What action to come and see you tomorrow.” These are normal are the Government taking to eradicate these gross things, but for so many mothers they have been lacking examples of health inequality? The five-year forward throughout the pandemic. I fear for the effect that that view for mental health made a recommendation that by will have on them, their families and their children in 2020-21 in England 30,000 more women each year the long term. should be able to access evidence-based specialist mental My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam health care during the perinatal period. During Monday’s () asked last year about the additional statement on women’s health, I asked the Minister if counselling and support being provided for those who she could tell us whether that target had been met. We gave birth during lockdown. I noted that there was no did not get an answer, so will she provide one today? clear answer on the proactive work that the Government Furthermore, the NHS long-term plan outlined that have done to provide support to new parents. I ask the an additional 24,000 women per year with moderate to Minister whether that was because no additional resources severe perinatal mental health difficulties and a personality have been provided. Does she recognise that maternal disorder diagnosis would benefit from evidence-based mental health has been overlooked in this crisis? care by 2023-24. Will the Minister please outline how many Pregnancy and childbirth can be such a beautiful women are now benefiting from that? We also know time in people’s lives, but I know what it can feel like that Health Education England was provided with when it goes wrong. I know the fear of stepping into a £1.2 million of funding to increase skills and awareness hospital afterwards—the memories come flooding back. around perinatal mental health. Will the Minister outline Your heart rate goes up, and you cannot even imagine the progress on that and tell us where training initiatives what it would be like to be pregnant and to go through might have been hampered by the pandemic? childbirth again. These things can be overcome, but not The pandemic has had a profound effect on people’s without the specialist help that people really rely on. I mental health. We know how difficult and stressful cannot imagine what it must be like for women going pregnancy and birth can be at the best of times. Even through this during covid, and yet it is another barrier outside of covid-19 it is vital that perinatal mental in the way of getting the help that they and their health services should promote prevention, early detection families desperately need. and diagnosis of mental health problems. Many women have been struggling to access the services they need during pregnancy, leaving them having to go through 3.42 pm A&E. That is hugely distressing and can cause a great The Minister for Patient Safety, Suicide Prevention deal of anxiety for expectant mothers and their partners. and Mental Health (Ms ): I thank the It is therefore vital that those most at risk get the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) for support they need now. Will the Minister outline what bringing forward this important debate. We have had a delays there have been during the pandemic in accessing number of debates about maternal health over the past perinatal services? year, but this is particularly important, given the timing. Working in a hospital, I have seen the fear that so Pregnancy and motherhood are a period of great change many people present with: fear of contracting the virus, for everyone. It has been particularly difficult for new fear of taking the virus home and fear of wasting NHS mothers during the past year, while they have been in the time. Preventive measures around mental illness are middle of lockdown. I want to pick up a couple of crucial, especially now, for those most at risk. With points that the hon. Lady made. She cited a case study, more than half of new mothers having reported feeling which I cannot respond to because it is from Scotland, down, lonely or irritable, and 71% reporting feeling and, as she knows, health is a devolved matter. She worried since the beginning of the first lockdown, what asked about the number of midwives that we have, and steps is the Minister taking to ensure that new mothers that was mentioned by a number of Members. There know where to go to seek help? has been an increase of 14.6% in full-time equivalent A University College London report found that, midwives in trusts and clinical commissioning groups during the pandemic, there was a redeployment of up over the past 10 years. to 80% of health visitors in some areas. That prevents Let me answer a few quick questions that came up. the much-needed visits that we heard about earlier. My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke Face-to-face visits are crucial in recognising issues early (Mrs Miller) brought up workplaces. We need a call for and in providing assistance. Will the Minister tell me evidence to gather the data that we need about what is what delays families have faced at this time and whether happening to women in the workplace, both when they any additional resources will be offered to those who are pregnant and to do with their health. On Monday, I missed out on face-to-face visits? mentioned issues such as endometriosis, menopause As a mother of two under two at one point, I know and the musculoskeletal issues that women suffer from how desperately stressful it can feel to have one baby more than men. We need data about all that, which is already and have a new one arrive. I know what it is like why we made the call for evidence, and I do so again. to feel as though you are failing at motherhood and at It is very easy to click on the link and for women to being a working mother. I know just how challenging it let us know what is happening to them in terms of can be, but I cannot imagine for a moment what it their health, both in the workplace and in healthcare would have felt like to do that through the pandemic. settings. The number of respondents was in the thousands 171WH Maternal Mental Health10 MARCH 2021 Maternal Mental Health 172WH

[Ms Nadine Dorries] in contact with families throughout the pandemic and it will continue to do so and to prioritise very young within a few hours of it going live, and we hope that it babies and vulnerable families. will give us the data we need to develop policies for the Recognising the support that a father or the mother’s workplace. partner can bring, we published guidance in September My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing to reintroduce access for partners, visitors and other and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) mentioned my right supporters of pregnant women in English maternity hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire services. We also launched a campaign to ensure that (Andrea Leadsom), whom I spoke to last week. We people continue to access services and get support early. await with great excitement the early years review. It started at the first 1,001 days. This has been my right We have continued to deliver on the ambitions for hon. Friend’s life’s work. I have known her since she maternity and mental health services that we had before first came here as an MP and before, and this is something the pandemic, to ensure that mothers get help earlier. that she is absolutely passionate about and committed From April 2020, we have invested an additional £12 million to. The cross-party review will be illuminating, and we per year for every mother to be offered a six to eight-week are excited to see it launched, which I think will be later post-natal check by her GP. I think that my hon. Friend this year. the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham campaigned on this for some considerable time. Through the post-natal Although the perinatal period can be a time of celebration health check, every mother can now expect to have the and joy, for some it can be a time of considerable opportunity and the time to discuss any concerns that anxiety and worry. Indeed, like the hon. Member for she may have about her physical or mental health and Lewisham West and Penge (Ellie Reeves), when I became wellbeing. a mother for the first time I was actually alone, because when my baby was 14 days old my husband had to go We remain committed to making perinatal mental and work abroad for six months. So I was completely health services a priority through the NHS long-term plan. alone, and I absolutely remember waking up in the There is now—this point is very important—a specialist middle of the night, having nobody with me and being community perinatal mental health service in every area entirely alone trying to breastfeed a baby,totally struggling of England, and we are further increasing access to and not being able to do it. So I remember how hard perinatal services, so that at least 66,000 women will be it is. able to access perinatal mental health services in 2023-24. Actually, I think I am allowed to say that I am about I went to see one of these perinatal services at the to become a grandmother for the first time, and I really beginning of my time in post, 18 months ago; they had hope that I can be there for my daughter. I hope that we just begun to roll out. I have been to see one of these are over this pandemic and out of it by the time that my perinatal mental health teams working, and it was just daughter gives birth, so that I can be there for her, to tremendous. The nurses had only been in place and help her through what will be difficult times, because operating for a matter of weeks, but they had already every new mother feels that difficulty. had something like 120 referrals and mums they had I would like every new mother to know that support seen. That demonstrated the need for such a service and is there. Increasingly—indeed, at a rate of knots—we almost endorsed the reasons why they were there, as are expanding services, and there is no shame in seeking well as highlighting the services that they were providing help, including through the pandemic. Specialist and to those young mums. in-patient perinatal mental health services have remained Importantly, we are extending the length of time for open during lockdown. There have been restrictions, which specialist perinatal mental health community but services have been providing digital and remote services will be available, so those services, which currently support. For those with severe needs or those who are in run from preconception to 12 months after birth, will crisis, perinatal or otherwise, all mental health trusts be available from preconception to 24 months after have set up new 24/7 crisis helplines—I remember the birth. We are also developing and implementing maternal call on 4 April last year when we decided that we would mental health services or maternity outreach clinics, do this, and those helplines rolled out and were open. I which bring together maternity and reproductive health have spoken to the chief executive officers of mental and psychological therapy for women experiencing mental health trusts, and one told me yesterday that the volume health difficulties directly arising from or related to the of people using those 24/7 helplines has been tremendous. maternity experience. They have been set up and they have been used, including As the hon. Member for Richmond Park can see, we by new mothers. have put a huge amount of work into maternal mental In the 2020 spending review we also announced up to health. She is quite right. I cannot remember who an additional £500 million for mental health services. highlighted the fact—it may have been the hon. Member That was on top of the £2.3 billion a year that we are for Tooting (Dr Allin-Khan)—that suicide is still the investing to address waiting times for mental health biggest cause of death in the period from, I think, eight services and to give more people the support that they weeks post delivery to 12 months. It is still the biggest need. cause of maternal death. That is why this issue is so We have also taken action to ensure that mothers can important to us. To reduce the figures and ensure that continue to have broader support throughout the perinatal suicide is not the biggest cause of maternal death, we period, both from statutory services and from family have to put the services in earlier. We need to ensure support. Health visitors, who are ideally placed to support that both at an antenatal stage and at the time of the families, and the health visiting service continue to check with a qualified GP at six to eight weeks, those provide an opportunity to identify families who may perinatal mental health services, which are now available need support. The health visiting service has remained in every area of the country, are in place. We have done 173WH Maternal Mental Health10 MARCH 2021 Maternal Mental Health 174WH that through the funding that there has been from the experience. Throughout the course of our lives, the £2.3 billion that has been allocated to the long-term physical milestones, the changes to our bodies and our plan. experience of the world have an impact on our health. I Many mothers who experience mental health problems reiterate that we are having our International Women’s in the perinatal period are treated in the community, but Day debate tomorrow, and I hope that the call for a very small number will need hospital admission for evidence will be mentioned, so that we can better understand their mental health, as the hon. Member for Richmond women’s experiences of the health and care system but Park will know. It is right that, where possible, we keep also, as I said at the beginning, their experiences of mother and child together. That is why—this is also an health, including motherhood and maternity, in the announcement; a fact that I am proud of—NHS England workplace. Without that evidence from women, we do has expanded the capacity of mother and baby units in not have the data and the information that is necessary England, with additional four to eight-bed units now in order to adapt and develop policies moving forward. providing specialist care and support to mothers who I will finish by urging all women to share their are experiencing severe mental health problems during experiences through the call for evidence. It will form and after pregnancy. I checked just before I came into the basis of a new women’s health strategy—the first of the room for this debate, and we are now up to 152 beds its kind. This is the first time any Government have across England, which represents a tremendous increase called on women for evidence, so that we can set an in the number of those units. It is so important in those ambitious and positive new agenda to improve health first days to keep mother and baby together as much as and wellbeing and to ensure that health services are possible. meeting the needs of women everywhere, especially in The units support women with serious mental health perinatal mental health. issues by keeping them together with their babies and with specialist staff who nurture and support the mother- 3.56 pm infant relationship on the ward at the same time as the mother is treated for her mental illness. That is a huge Sarah Olney: This has been a really fantastic debate, step forward from how things used to be not so long and I am so grateful for the contributions from Members, ago. Mothers who are at that severe stage of mental both in the room and on Zoom. I welcome the contribution illness post delivery can have that treatment in those from the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham beds; they can be treated by those specialists. Mother (Tim Loughton) and all the work that he has done, and baby are together, and there are psychiatric services particularly as the chair of the APPG for the first 1,001 at the same time. That is a huge leap forward. days. He has highlighted the work of the right hon. We recognise that maternal ill health can also have an Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), effect on the child’s father or the partner of the mother. and I am very much looking forward to reading her Weare therefore also offering partners of women accessing review,which will be really interesting. He also highlighted specialist perinatal mental health services and maternal the importance of fathers, and I am really grateful to mental health services evidence-based assessments for him for raising that important aspect of the debate. their mental health and signposting to support as required. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Strangford In the future, partners of expectant and new mothers (Jim Shannon) for mentioning grandparents. Some of who are seriously unwell will be offered a range of help, the most distressing correspondence I have had during such as peer support, behavioural couples therapy sessions this pandemic has been from grandparents who have and other family and parenting interventions. been unable to see and hold their new grandchildren, so We are also taking forward work to ensure that all I thank him for raising that issue. I congratulate the babies and young children in England receive the best Minister on her impending grandmotherhood and hope start in life. I will come on to the early years review. My that all goes well. right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Health and I am particularly grateful to Members who have Social Care and the Prime Minister jointly commissioned shared their own experiences throughout the debate. in the summer of 2020 the early years healthy development I thank the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth review. It is important, so I will say this again. The review (Cherilyn Mackrory), whose experience highlights what looks across the first 1,001 critical days. The SNP I was saying about the inadequacy of telephone and spokesperson, the hon. Member for East Kilbride, digital follow-up appointments.She spoke of her experience Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron), also spoke of post-natal depression, and I am really grateful to her about the importance of the first 1,001 days, from for sharing that. If I could stretch out a virtual hand, I conception to the age of two. This is about ensuring would like to say to her that we share the experience of that babies and young children in England can be given baby loss, and I know what that is like. the best start in life. Phase 1 of the review is in its final I am grateful to the hon. Member for City of Durham stages, and the vision for brilliance, setting out policy (Mary Kelly Foy) for highlighting another really important actions for the Government, will be published shortly. aspect: babies who are born with additional needs, the I hope that my response goes some way to assuring particular needs of their families and how they have all hon. Members that this Government remain committed been affected during this pandemic. I really hope that to supporting mothers throughout the perinatal stages their needs can be prioritised going forward. I also want and up to 24 months after giving birth and ensuring to mention the right hon. Member for Basingstoke that we can reach out to mothers who may need help (Mrs Miller). It feels as if a mother’s financial experience coming forward about their mental health. is almost an additional thing, but she is absolutely right I would like to end by talking about women’s health in saying it is central to mothers’ mental health to more broadly. Pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood know that they have economic stability. I thank her for are just some of the stages of life that many women can raising that. 175WH Maternal Mental Health 10 MARCH 2021 176WH

[Sarah Olney] Noise Pollution and Military Aviation I want to pick up on the Minister’s comments. I am really pleased to hear about the call for evidence. As I 4.5 pm say, I am looking forward to the early years review. I Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) [V]: I beg to move, want to push her on the point about not allowing digital That this House has considered noise pollution and military and telephone consultations to become the norm in aviation. perinatal mental health, because those face-to-face visits Thank you, Sir Edward, for the opportunity to raise a are so important to mothers everywhere, and I really matter of long standing in north and west Wales but hope that can be embedded. I thank everyone for their which is particularly difficult at present. There is a long time this afternoon, and thank you, Sir Edward, for history of training pilots locally at RAF Valley, and I your chairing. want to say right at the start that this is not about pilot training as such. Some of my constituents argue that Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Speaking as a the purpose of that training is unacceptable, but, given grandfather, it has been a very interesting debate. the narrow scope of the debate, that is something for Question put and agreed to. another day. The debate is about the current level of Resolved, noise and the future prospects for peace and quiet for That this House has considered maternal mental health. my constituents and others across our extraordinary natural environments in north and west Wales, as well 3.59 pm as for the future of our outdoor tourism industry, which so depends on the tranquillity of the national park and Sitting suspended. the areas beyond. I note the huge pressure on the outdoors industry with this lockdown. The last thing we need is for outdoor centres to reopen but find a drop in their historical level of business because visitors are put off by aircraft noise. I thank the senior officer at RAF Valley for meeting me at Westminster some time ago to discuss the matter. I also thank the Minister and his staff for answering my many written questions over the last few months. However, I assure him that my pen is poised should the debate not elicit full and satisfactory answers. It is well over a year since I raised this matter with the Ministry of Defence and senior personnel at RAF Valley, but constituents continue to report frequent and unacceptable noise levels from the Texan T1 despite assurances that steps were being taken to equip the aircraft with what was necessary to allow them to fly over the sea, which would reduce the impact on populated areas. I will proceed with my understanding of the genesis of the issue—of course, I stand to be corrected if I have got something wrong. The Texan, as I understand it, is a sophisticated new training aeroplane able to mimic the characteristics of a range of other aircraft in service and is therefore very valuable to the RAF in training. The Texans are now based at RAF Valley on Ynys Môn. “Ynys” in English is “island”, a point to which I will turn immediately.For safety reasons, the new aircraft cannot be flown over the sea without special precautions. Of course, Ynys Môn is surrounded by the sea on three sides. I have been told many times that the necessary safety equipment—a particular harness, a lifejacket and a life raft—is being developed, that the restrictions are temporary and, of course, that this is a priority for the MOD. I quite understand that, given how it now has these new and very useful aircraft available. However, in the meantime, the Texan is being flown over a restricted area of north and west Wales—restricted because of other flying activity. I understand it is also being flown over the Isle of Man and the English Lake district. Both of those places are, of course, over the sea from Ynys Môn and, as I said, precautions have to be taken before flights over the sea. In a letter of 7 December, the Minister wanted to stress that although my constituents might perceive that the restrictions on Texan flights result in a disproportionate 177WH Noise Pollution and Military Aviation10 MARCH 2021 Noise Pollution and Military Aviation 178WH concentration of overflight in their areas, that was not responsible for safety stepped in and said they cannot the case. He then referred to flights over the Isle of Man fly over the sea. Now, perhaps I am wrong in my and the Lake district. These are my first questions to understanding, but I would be grateful if the Minister the Minister. What proportion of Texan flights take could explain. place respectively over the three areas? Is that proportion I come next to a question that I have already referred as planned, even if the number of flights are greater? to: the aircraft were located at the Valley on Ynys Môn, That is, of course, if they are greater; I am not sure. I surrounded on three sides by the sea—it is an island, contacted a colleague from the Lake district and asked after all. I know that locating them at Valley is very about flights over his area. He said he was unaware of useful for the RAF. Certainly, for my constituents in any flights by the Texans. Arfon, and more so for people in Ynys Môn, Valley is a I understand that the Texan is noisier in some respects vital economic interest, not least because the prospects than the jet aircraft that usually overfly our area, even for large-scale employment locally, such as Wylfa B, those that have flown over what is notoriously called the have subsequently disappeared. Some explanation of Mach loop near Machynlleth, which generates a large the decision to locate them at Valley would be helpful, if number of complaints. The reason the Texan is noisier, that is possible. I can appreciate that there might be as I understand it, is that it is a turboprop plane. some security or confidentiality considerations. My next three questions to the Minister are these. I come on to the cost of change and modification. First, is there some further way of lessening the noise in Has that been budgeted for? Was that budgeted for in the short term, for example by varying the height at the initial costings of the Texan? Or is that an additional which the aircraft are flown? I was told by RAF personnel, cost? If it is an additional cost, who is paying it? and I think by the station commander at RAF Valley, that they fly at around 5,000 feet, which means the noise The Minister might be relieved that I am coming to generated is distributed very widely. Has that been the end of this long series of questions, but I have a few considered? I am sure it has. more, which are about assessments before the new machines were purchased. I think the arrival of the Secondly, what are the possibilities of halting, varying Texans was something of a surprise for my constituents or even reducing the manoeuvres performed in training, and for the local population throughout north and west noticeably what I believe is the dive and climb? That Wales—I understand they are flown over the Ceredigion manoeuvre produces the characteristic, rather chilling constituency as well. What assessment was made at the howl that the aircraft make. There might be a fairly loud start of the acquisition process of the health and wellbeing background hum a lot of the time, but that is interspersed effects on local populations that would be overflown? I with this howl, which disturbs many people. cannot say that I recall being informed or contacted or Thirdly, and importantly, whatever changes are made asked my opinion about this as a local MP. Is there a to the operation of the Texan aircraft, can the Minister standard procedure or does the RAF and the MOD act assure me that any such changed procedures would not off their own bat? Given that this area is a national lead to a reduction in work for ground staff at the park, what assessment was made of the possible effects Valley? The Valley is a significant and valued local on wildlife? employer, whatever one might think about the activities there. As I said, my constituents’ views of the training at There is also the economic impact on tourism in the Valley are mixed, to say the least. general, but particularly the effect on outdoor tourism. This is an area that depends on tourism. People come As I said earlier, the Minister has assured me that the here because of the peace and quiet. That is particularly safety work is being undertaken. I know nothing of so for outdoor tourism. The area sells itself, very successfully, the technical aspects of that safety work and I am sure on the basis of peace and quiet, on the extraordinary the work is extremely complex. Of course, I would not natural environment and the beauty of the area, of want the safety of our air personnel to be compromised course, and in some ways on the remoteness of the area, in any way by a rushed job, but it does seem to my although of course we are not remote from the large constituents to be taking a very long time. I picked up conurbations of north-west England. The remoteness is this issue about a year ago and have been given repeated disturbed by aircraft flying over—there is a paradox assurances that the work is being done and that it is a there. There is a question around whether that was temporary measure. What progress has been achieved assessed at all. I do not know what the procedure is in so far? Can the Minister give me an idea of an end date? the MOD or in general, but if such assessments were I now come to a broader set of questions that have made, were they public documents, so that people in sometimes got lost in concentrating on the noise problem. north and west Wales could see for themselves that First, what was the process of approval for the purchase proper care was being taken of their interests? of this aircraft? They seem to have been bought and When and if these aircraft are modified so that they then later had their use restricted because of safety can fly over the sea, should we assume that they will concerns. It seems strange that new aircraft were bought continue to be flown over the land? I take it that they but were then deemed not to be suitable for use where will be, from the letter I received from the Minister, they are located. dated 7 December. If so, can he indicate the proportion Why was the safety problem not foreseen before the of overland and oversea flights, or even their number? aircraft were acquired? I hope that the safety problem Are we going to have more or fewer of them? Will many was not foreseen but disregarded. Would the Minister be over the sea, or just a few? Will there be changed safety throw some light on that matter? Were those who assessed procedures for oversea flights? Will that lead to increased the safety of the operation over the sea not part of the flights over other areas, such as the Isle of Man and the process? My understanding is that there was a sequence English Lake district? In other words, will the distribution whereby the aircraft were acquired and then the people be different? 179WH Noise Pollution and Military Aviation10 MARCH 2021 Noise Pollution and Military Aviation 180WH

[Hywel Williams] environments. I understand what the hon. Gentleman would say, and I was going to make a bad pun involving In the very last of my long list of questions, I understand “Hywel” and the howling that can be a factor of those that there is an intention to bring in night flying. I have aircraft. I do not know the straightforward answer to not heard those aircraft at night myself—it is possible his questions, but I know he will appreciate that we need that they have not flown over my part of the constituency to be able to have that tactical manoeuvring agility, to —but I would like to know the MOD’s intention in test the pilots and to make certain that they are competent respect of night flights. I understand that, at present, in all areas of manoeuvrability. However, I will take up the intention is that 5% of all flights will be at night. I his question with the RAF. worry that those flights might be more intrusive, just The planes are new, as the hon. Gentleman knows, because of the absence of other noise at night. Again, and they were cleared as perfectly safe by American and any information that the Minister can give to me or my European regulators. When those planes come into constituents would be greatly appreciated. service, we want to ensure that they are absolutely right I realise that I have posed many questions. I accept, of for our requirements of them, because we place such a course, that the Minister might only be able to respond high premium on the safety and security of our crews. to some of them at this point, but I would hope for oral Particular problems were identified, for which we wished or written answers to them all. The people whom I and to enhance security, and I will come on to those later in my right hon. and hon. Friends represent deserve no less. my speech. The point that I want to make is that, in terms of 4.21 pm decibel levels, this plane is quieter than the plane that The Minister for Defence Procurement (): preceded it. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman’sconstituents I congratulate the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) in the beautiful part of the country that he represents on securing this debate. It is a pleasure to see him, albeit have noted that there is a low hum, which can perhaps virtually. He is a constant advocate on this point for his be heard over a longer distance, even though the decibel constituents. level may be lower. I recognise that problem. The hon. Gentleman was not wrong in saying that his I will come back to the hon. Gentleman’s other speech contained many questions. He has already put points. Even with vital live training, we take measures many to me, to which I have responded with written to ensure that disturbance is as limited as is practicable. answers, as he generously made clear. I have written to The amount of low-flying training carried out, to which him in some detail on a couple of occasions, and will do he referred, is strictly limited to that which is essential to so again. Try as I might to cover as many of his achieve and maintain operational effectiveness. Military questions as possible, I may need to come back to him aircraft are subject to stringent restrictions on heights on some of the points of detail that he referenced. This and speeds, and their operating procedures are designed is an important debate and I am glad to have the to minimise disturbance. We ensure that most low-flying opportunity to respond to it. training takes place during daylight hours on weekdays, For more than a century, the Royal Air Force has and wherever possible flying units will publish details of defended the skies above the United Kingdom and upcoming activity online, in local newspapers and on projected Britain’s power and influence around the world. social media platforms. I should add that we sometimes Today, the RAF remains at the heart of the Government’s have to do things differently, owing to the vagaries of approach to conflict and crisis management and remains the British weather, with which we are all familiar, but heavily committed to operations at home and abroad. that is our intent. Of course, our aviation branch is not just the RAF; our I am saddened by the fact that there was a significant Royal Navy and Army aviators play a vital role, too, in increase—by about 50%—in complaints about low flying ensuring our security at home and around the globe. in 2020 compared with 2019. The only small silver The fact is that our aircraft may be required to lining I take from that is that it is perhaps indicative of scramble at a moment’s notice to defend our airspace, the amount of flying done on weekdays and during in defence of our allies or to participate in operations, working hours, and that, given the amount of home as they have done so often over the past 20 years. That is working over the course of the past year, it is only now what makes the importance of their training so acute. I that this has become more apparent to the hon. Gentleman’s recognise that the hon. Gentleman absolutely said that constituents and others. It is indicative of our attempts in his remarks and that he does not wish to compromise to schedule flying in such a way as cause minimum safety. I know that he appreciates the importance of inconvenience, avoiding evenings, night-time and weekends that. where possible. However, we need to train at night, as Since 2012, we tragically have lost seven aircrew in the hon Gentleman referred to. I believe he is right in accidents, at home and overseas. Our thoughts remain saying that 95% to 5% is the approximate differentiation with the families, friends and colleagues of all those between the two; if that is not the case, I will write to who have died in service. Sadly, we will never prevent all him to correct myself. It is critical, as he will accept, that deaths, but our duty is to ensure that our pilots are as we have proper training in night-flying skills. Where we well trained as possible, to reduce such fatalities. The do that, we try to ensure that night training is completed ability to train effectively in the benign and friendly as early in the evening as possible, to minimise noise environment of the homeland they protect keeps them and inconvenience at night. safe for the dangers they confront on operations. The hon. Gentleman is clearly particularly focused Flying skills, in particular for low-level flying, are on training and noise pollution around RAF Valley. He highly perishable and the risk of skill fade cannot knows, and generously remarked on, the fact that night- be underestimated. Those skills can be achieved flying training has brought with it to Ynys Môn a and maintained only through practice in a range of sizeable part of the £3.5 billion of investment currently 181WH Noise Pollution and Military Aviation10 MARCH 2021 Noise Pollution and Military Aviation 182WH set aside for military flying training, and that the base is land, for obvious reasons to do with the efficacy of the the second largest employer on the island. However, just training programme. In any event, the areas immediately as the RAF is important to the area, so the local to the north of the base, over the Irish sea, contain some community is important to us. We always wish to act as of the biggest civil airways, with stringent civil air good neighbours. traffic control procedures that limit our ability to fly in I have three specific points on RAF Valley. First, that environment. where possible, we use synthetic training, which has a We are doing what we can to address the safety valuable role to play. It is environmentally positive and concerns about flying over water, and progress has been clearly eliminates noise pollution entirely. We cannot go made. We try to spread the flights further beyond that wholly synthetic, because we cannot divorce flying training beautiful part of north Wales that the hon. Gentleman from real cockpits, but we use it where we can. That is a represents, and I will write to him further on that. I growing trend in our training programmes. recognise that some people find the sound of military Secondly, while those living in the vicinity of flying aircraft disturbing, and we are always keen to hear from units will inevitably see more military aircraft activity the public about their concerns. That is why we have the than other areas of the country, we make efforts, as the MOD’s low flying complaints and enquiries unit, which hon. Gentleman knows from my letters, to spread that is the first port of call for members of the public who activity as widely and as equitably as possible. He is wish to complain about low-flying military aircraft. right that pilots from RAF Valley also fly elsewhere in Every complaint and enquiry is examined. Nothing is Wales, over the Isle of Man and into Cumbria. I do not ignored; we investigate properly. Where members of the know the exact proportions, but that is something I can public allege that military flying regulations have not look up. I will see what I can do and come back to the been followed, a full military police investigation will be hon. Gentleman. There are occasions when pilots will conducted into the incident by the defence flying complaints fly elsewhere, refuel, engage in further operations and investigation team. Disregard of military flying regulations then return to RAF Valley. I will look into that. He will is not tolerated, and the punishment for those found to appreciate that, even if we have a perfect scenario, in have done so is severe. terms of programmes, that will always be affected by The hon. Gentleman also asked some questions about weather conditions and the practicalities on the day, but the process of acquisition. It is very hard to draw I will see what I can do to give more comfort to the hon. widespread conclusions, but if anything, the decibels Gentlemen’s constituents about how we look to share emitted from aircraft are falling over time. I think I am the inevitable noise around the country. right in saying that the old VC10 would, amazingly, have Thirdly, I know that the new Texan aircraft and to be 34 miles away from the listener before the noise training has been of particular interest to the hon. would finally go. For the Voyager, which replaced it, it is Gentleman. I responded to his parliamentary questions 3.4 miles. That is one example. I hope that, by and large, and, more recently, to a letter about safety equipment. military aircraft are getting quieter over time, but there There are three aspects to that safety. The first is to are swings and roundabouts in that. As I say, in decibel ensure that it can operate safely over water. To be terms, the Texan is quieter than the aircraft it replaced. absolutely clear, the Texan can operate over water, and I do not know whether there are technical means to quieten does. As the hon. Gentleman rightly observed, it would the engines beyond what has been proposed. I doubt it, not get far away from Ynys Môn if it could not go over but it is a fair question from the hon. Gentleman. It is a water, and it does indeed go over the sea. The issue we fair challenge, and I will certainly ask that question. have is the kinds of sea states that it can operate over to The Texan went through a normal acquisition process, our satisfaction. We are doing our utmost to protect the as would be expected in the Ministry of Defence, going crews should an accident occur. through the assets that we need to train our pilots to There are three issues. On the life preserver and replace a 30-year-old aircraft and to ensure that it making certain that a light comes on automatically if it provides value for money. That would all have been hits the water, the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to undertaken. In parallel with that, we look at the more hear that that has now been sorted. My understanding exacting requirements that we need to place on our is that the harness has now been sorted. The remaining aircraft, and again that would have been undertaken on issue is to ensure that an automatic life raft deploys in this aircraft, hence the requirement for additional safety the event of it coming into contact with the water. That measures. has not yet been fixed. Technically, it is difficult. It is a I have probably not heard the last from the hon. simple bit of kit, but the slot that it has to be placed into Gentleman on this subject. I look forward to further is smaller than on most of our other aircraft, so that engagements. On the points that he raised that I have needs to be addressed. I cannot give the hon. Gentleman not been able to reply to in this debate, I will endeavour the timescale for that at the moment, but it is actively to write to him with answers. I recognise the sincerity of being looked into. his concern on this issue. I trust that he and his constituents What does that prevent? It does not prevent the recognise the value that is placed on having incredibly aircraft from flying over water, but it does mean that we good, highly trained, highly experienced pilots, who do do not fly over water when we have very rough seas—we the work they do in support of our country and to keep are talking about the highest level of sea states. The us safe. I thank him for the debate, and I look forward changes we have already made have already significantly to writing to him and hearing from him again in the increased the amount of flying that has been conducted future. over water, so the problem has already diminished, and Question put and agreed to. I hope to see it diminish further over time. I stress to the hon. Gentleman that there will always be a certain 4.35 pm proportion of training that has to be conducted over Sitting suspended. 183WH 10 MARCH 2021 Household Overcrowding: Covid-19 184WH

Household Overcrowding: Covid-19 We know from studies such as the Marmot review that housing is a social determinant of health. Poor 4.50 pm housing can lead to lifelong poor physical and mental health. There is a higher risk of accidents in overcrowded (East Ham) (Lab): I beg to move, homes, and there is more condensation and mould. That this House has considered household overcrowding and Research has established a link between overcrowding the covid-19 outbreak. and poor child health due to infections and respiratory Eleven years ago, I was contacted by a family who and gastrointestinal problems. There is consistent evidence were very overcrowded. The father, mother, and four of poorer mental health for people in crowded homes— daughters aged from one to 10 were living in a one-bedroom depression, anxiety and stress as a result of living in council flat. In the four years that they had been applying cramped conditions. Poor quality of sleep is one of the to move, Newham Council had been unable to provide reasons for that. Lack of space to play or study holds anything larger. Nine years after that, in 2019, I received back children’s development and education. a letter from the youngest of the four children, who was Overcrowding is associated with interrupted schooling by then aged 11 and had a younger sister. There were and behavioural problems at school. It can harm family now five daughters, all still living in the same one-bedroom relationships and lead to fighting and arguments between flat. The letter from the 11-year-old said: children. All of that was true before the pandemic, but “Since I was born, I have not even had a good day, because all covid has shone a bright light on all of these problems, this flat does is bring back bad memories. I sleep on the floor with and overcrowding has made coping with covid much my two older sisters. Every night when my dad gets up to go to harder. Transmission within households has spread the work, he always has to turn on the light so he doesn’t step on us. virus. In overcrowded households, infection has spread Due to this, I don’t get enough sleep. I can’t concentrate. I’m so faster.Social distancing and self-isolation can be impossible. scared, because I want to pass my SATs, but I’ve got no place to revise. I’m falling behind in class, and it is because nobody cares The stress of overcrowding—long-term and familiar—has about me. Nobody wants to see me happy. I feel like you don’t been transformed by the pandemic into a catastrophe. care, because if you did, you’d help me. All of my friends invite Last May, Inside Housing magazine published a graph me to birthday parties. However, I am unable to come, because I plotting local authorities’ rates of overcrowding against feel that if I come, they should be invited to my birthday, but I their covid death rates. The correlation is remarkable. can’t, because I have no place in my house. I have never got to Overcrowding might well partly explain the disproportionate celebrate anything. Every day, I see my mum cry and it makes me cry.” mortality rate among ethnic minority groups. Public Health England’s review into why black and ethnic The family is still in that flat today. With 27,000 people minority groups have been so badly hit by the pandemic on Newham Council’s housing waiting list, it is not identified poor housing and household composition as unusual for families to wait 15 years to be housed, as key factors. that one has. Severe damp and mould, much more common in Until the 1990s, the average number of people per overcrowded homes, cause chronic respiratory problems, household in London had fallen steadily since the end of making people more vulnerable if they contract coronavirus. the 19th century.Now,the number is going up. Nationally, For children, the onset and worsening of asthma in the English housing survey showed overcrowding at the overcrowded conditions is well documented. For those highest rate ever in the social rented sector—it was who have to live, learn and work in one room, the 9% in 2019-20, just before the pandemic. In both the psychological impact of lockdown has been extraordinary. social and private sectors, the rate has roughly doubled On a video call last month with a family in my constituency in 20 years. I am sorry to report that in my constituency, —mum, dad and another family with five daughters, the overall rate of overcrowding is the highest in the this time in a two-bedroom flat—the girls pointed out country, at 27%, according to the 2011 census. It will be to me how infeasible it was for them all to study at the a good deal higher than that when the data comes in same time. That family was clearly teetering on the from the census that is under way at the moment. edge. More people in overcrowded households have Some 34% of all Bangladeshi households are reported psychological distress in the lockdown. overcrowded. The figure for Pakistani households is Sometimes in Parliament when we talk about the 18%, black African 16%, Arab 15% and mixed white housing crisis, we are referring to young people not being and black African 14%. All face high levels of overcrowding, able to buy homes until they are a bit older, and that is a compared with 2% for white British households.Dr Haque, problem. The Government have taken various steps to who was the then interim director of the Runnymede try to address it by subsidising first-time buyers with Trust, told the Women and Equalities Committee last starter homes, Help to Buy ISAs and the 95% mortgage summer that announced in the Budget last week, but there was “there will always be multigenerational homes where people nothing at all to tackle the real housing crisis—people decide to live with multiple generations—maybe their mothers as trapped at the bottom end of the rental market with well as their grandparents—but they do not ever choose to live in unaffordable rents in overcrowded, poor quality homes. overcrowded housing.” The heart of the problem has been the failure to replenish Recognising those different impacts, the Women and the social housing stock, so families in social housing Equalities Committee recommended that, by the end of are twice as likely to be overcrowded now than they this summer, the Government produce a strategy to would have been decades ago. reduce overcrowding. If the Government are serious I welcomed the Archbishop of Canterbury’s housing about addressing racial inequalities in public health, commission report last month, with its ambition and they must tackle overcrowding. I should be grateful if vision. It states: the Minister would tell us whether the strategy that the “A good home is a place…where we feel safe, it enables us to Committee has called for will be produced by the end of put down roots and belong to a community, it is a place we enjoy this summer. living in and which is a delight to come home to.” 185WH Household Overcrowding: Covid-1910 MARCH 2021 Household Overcrowding: Covid-19 186WH

That should be what we aim for. The report calls for 5.2 pm Government action on a Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): I “coherent, long-term housing strategy, focused on those in greatest need.” congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms). The voice of those in cramped, It calls for a long-term housing affordability policy with uninhabitable or overcrowded housing is louder in this new housing, greater public subsidy, reinstating capital place thanks in no small part to his tireless campaigning. grants, reducing land prices, a new housing affordability The pandemic has impacted us all—every family and definition in terms of household incomes rather than house, and everyone in society. However, the impact has market rents, and a review of social security to strengthen not been equal. The stark inequalities of our society housing support. have been laid bare by a virus that thrives on that very I am old enough—just—to remember the furore in inequality. Those in the worst health are the most likely the 1960s over the housing crisis around the television to fall ill. Those in the lowest-paid jobs are the most play, “Cathy Come Home”, which was about a family likely to be unable to work from home. Those children destroyed by inadequate housing. That furore led to the furthest behind in school are the most likely to be foundation of Shelter and a wave of council house building. without the internet connection that is required for We are there again now. Families are being destroyed remote learning. and lives blighted. The impact during the pandemic in the part of London that I represent was well documented Perhaps the starkest examples of what I have been in Anjli Raval’s powerful article, “Inside the ‘Covid describing are in housing—the constituents who contact Triangle’” in the magazine last weekend. me every single day, who are without the outside space We need that moral outrage again and a new wave of that makes lockdown more bearable; the children living investment in council house building. Weneed an alternative on the top floors of tower blocks, who are unable to to private renting—a decent home where people can live open windows for ventilation, because of the danger of and plan for their future. We have done it before; we can living on the skyline; the families trapped in temporary do it again. Councils are finding creative ways to build, accommodation, who do not register with a GP for the such as the Red Door Ventures initiative in Newham, vaccination because they have no idea how long they but we need them on a much bigger scale. The Government will call that hostel or B&B their home; or, as my right need to step up, and after the pandemic we need a new hon. Friend so powerfully explained, overcrowded programme to build affordable and secure social homes. households, or houses in multiple occupation, where there is a family living in every room. Social security needs to tackle overcrowding. Welfare cuts over the past decade have mostly hit tenants. Freezing How can a person possibly self-isolate when they live local housing allowance means that support is not tied in one room with four children, like Mrs B in my to real rents and families cannot afford homes suitable constituency? The simple answer is that they cannot. to their needs.This year,thankfully,local housing allowance Families like hers live across our capital in houses in has been relinked to the 30th percentile of rents. The multiple occupation that have a single bathroom and a Secretary of State for Work and Pensions told the Work household in every room. Sanitation is a pipedream for and Pensions Committee, which I chair, that that change these families, who share facilities with people in the was permanent. She was unfortunately mistaken. The next room, many of whom disproportionately head out Chancellor has frozen rates again from next month, and to the frontline each morning. And those in the most the gap will start to widen all over again. The benefit insecure work simply cannot afford to self-isolate without cap also makes it impossible for families in London to the support that the Government seem so reluctant to afford the housing they need. Many households have provide. It is the pandemic paradox—the impossibility had no benefit at all from higher housing support over of ensuring the safety of those on our frontline when the past year, because it has been immediately capped. they are the least likely to be able to self-isolate. It is a problem baked in by a decade of austerity, housing The Work and Pensions Committee has recommended crisis and low pay, and the Government’s shambolic maintaining the increases in support provided in the treatment of our nurses shows that the lessons are pandemic, including keeping local housing allowance at simply not being learned. the 30th percentile, and conducting an annual review of rates to keep them appropriate for each area. The I invite the Minister to my Friday advice surgery, Archbishops’ Commission on Housing, Church and where we will hear from Mrs C, who has two bedrooms Community recommended that it be tied to 50% rather on the second floor of a property that she shares with than 30%, and that the Government should urgently her three young children. For the last few months she review the operation of the local housing allowance. has been joined by her disabled mother,who unfortunately has cancer and who she wishes to nurse to her end. Her Having seen the impact of household overcrowding mum is unable to leave the flat and quite frankly—given during the pandemic, I want to ask the Minister what the impossibility of social distancing in that situation— prospect there is of a new wave of investment in social neither are the rest of her family, if they are to ensure house building on the scale that we need—or are we her mother’s safety. going to have to wait again for a Labour Government, for the overcrowding crisis to be addressed? Will he So when the Government huff and puff about isolation prioritise building affordable family homes with three payments or celebrate another Budget bereft of social bedrooms and more? Why have we started down the housing policy, I say to the Minister that they simply do road of freezing local housing allowance again, after not know how the poorest and most vulnerable are that policy has done so much damage over the past living—like Mr F and his twins, who live in one small decade, and what response, if any, do the Government room in a shared house, or Mr D, who is in a single plan to make to the report of the Archbishop of room with his son, following the sad passing of his wife. Canterbury’s housing commission? Try telling them that the pandemic is the great leveller. 187WH Household Overcrowding: Covid-1910 MARCH 2021 Household Overcrowding: Covid-19 188WH

[Siobhain McDonagh] brings the Quality Streets into the Members’ Tea Room; every Easter, I look forward to a creme egg, because of The reality is that coronavirus has shone the strongest him. So let us put on the record our thanks to him. By spotlight on the importance of having a safe and suitable the way, I am a diabetic, so I should not eat any of the place to call home. With 1.15 million households on Quality Streets or anycreme eggs,but temptation sometimes social housing waiting lists across the country,the housing gets the better of me. crisis cannot be solved by tinkering around the edges. It My own constituency has a huge waiting list. What I needs political will, it needs to be at the heart of will say will replicate what the right hon. Member for Government decision making and it needs a bit more East Ham and the hon. Member for Mitcham and than the 6,556 new social homes that were delivered last Morden referred to; their constituencies have not cornered year. the market in housing problems—we have them as well. Perhaps the £20 billion that has just been announced Indeed, we have multiple daily problems in our office to look at building a bridge between Scotland and back home in Newtownards with the waiting list for Northern Ireland could be better spent on building the appropriate social housing, largely made up of people social housing that our country so desperately needs. in overcrowded accommodation who cannot afford private Maybe then I could finally offer some hope to the rent, or to pay the difference between housing benefit families at my advice surgeries that they may one day and rent in the real world. They have no alternative get a place to call home. whatever but to move themselves and their children into their mum’s spare room—or worse, the living room, 5.7 pm which takes away from where everybody lives. We often Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the right come to the problem of multiple families living in hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) for setting houses that may have been built for a two-person family the scene. Obviously, I will give the Minister a Northern but which have maybe six or eight people living in them, Ireland perspective. I know that he personally does not which becomes difficult. To have what should naturally have ministerial responsibility for Northern Ireland, be two separate households living together in such but I just want to give a Northern Ireland perspective to circumstances makes covid difficulties clear on so many the debate, and to add my support to the right hon. levels. Gentleman for what he does, and to the hon. Member The title of the debate is “Household Overcrowding: for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) as Covid-19”. We have learned about many things from well. the coronavirus situation and how we have responded The hon. Lady mentioned the bridge. I understand to it, and one is certainly overcrowding, with people what the Prime Minister is talking about, by the way; it living almost on top of each other. I will give an is about connectivity and it is about the Union. But yes, example in a short minute. If just one person in a house I agree with her 100% that the money could be spent on gets covid, everybody has to self-isolate, which has better things. I say that very respectfully. The bridge is implications, including whether an employer will actually not what this debate is about, but if I had been asked to furlough them. By the way, I understand that there is make any comment on it, that is what I would have said. some choice in whether the employer may do that. I would have taken the Prime Minister down to the roads This is not the Minister’s responsibility, and I am not in Strangford and told him to spend a whole lot of asking him to answer on it, but one of the biggest issues money on them, to address the issues that I referred to. in my constituency is securing houses big enough for However, that is not taking away from what the Prime families. A single family may get a four-bed house. They Minister is saying. But the bridge is not the subject of probably have three or four children. One of those this debate; it is the subject for another debate. children is autistic, and they have maybe one girl and I declare an interest, as chair of the all-party three boys, so right away an ordinary three-bed house parliamentary group on healthy homes and buildings, will not be sufficient for them because of their physical so I have a particular interest in this issue. One of our circumstances and the disabilities of their children. interests in the APPG—indeed, it comes up all the time, and I suppose the clue is in the title of our group—is Sometimes a family has more than one child who is how we can have healthy homes and buildings. It is autistic, or they might have one with attention deficit about homes that are suitable for today’s modern lifestyle, hyperactivity disorder as well, which means they need a and how we can move towards ensuring that any new single bedroom for each one. The right hon. Member homes built are built in a style that would satisfy the for East Ham referred to some issues. Some issues that I needs of a modern family, but it is also about addressing face every day in my constituency relate to those who the issue of homes that perhaps are not built in that are disabled and how the implications of that then style. In the past, we have had an inquiry and we have multiply the housing issues. brought out the results, so it is quite an active APPG, I I was not surprised to learn from the Health Foundation am pleased to say. that, going into the covid-19 pandemic, one in three May I also say how pleased I am to see the Minister households—32%, or 7.6 million; what a figure—in in his place? I was saying to him beforehand—you England had at least one major housing problem relating probably heard me saying it, Sir Edward—that he has to overcrowding, affordability or poor-quality housing. shone in the main Chamber and now is his chance to Poor-quality housing is one issue that we are trying to shine in Westminster Hall. address in the APPG. I see that replicated, to scale, in The Minister and I have been good friends ever since Northern Ireland and in my constituency. he came to this House and I value his friendship; I hope It is clear that housing problems such as these can that he values mine. His kindness to us all in this House affect health outcomes—I believe that, and I see it when is beyond doubt. Every Christmas, he is the man who talking to people—including physical health, directly 189WH Household Overcrowding: Covid-1910 MARCH 2021 Household Overcrowding: Covid-19 190WH from poor-quality homes, and mental health, from those people in his surgery, just as we are. I do believe affordability or insecure housing issues. I understand we must act, and I look to the Minister to see his plan of that the Governments both back home and here are action to provide more social housing, more support for trying to address poor-quality homes, I am pretty sure private rental and greater ability for people to be removed the Minister will give us some positive answers on the from unhealthy living conditions throughout this great quality of homes and what the Government are doing, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. and also—I am not putting words in the Minister’s mouth—some idea of what the Government are doing 5.17 pm on new building to address demand. While fewer homes are classed as non-decent compared Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP) with 10 years ago, overcrowding and affordability problems [V]: I am pleased to participate in this important debate have increased in recent years.The pandemic has highlighted on household overcrowding and the covid-19 outbreak. the health implications of housing. Poor housing conditions I thank the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen such as overcrowding and high density are associated Timms) for bringing the debate forward. As we have with a greater spread of covid-19. We have learned that, heard, there is no doubt that housing and health outcomes when one person gets it, we all have to self-isolate. I had are inextricably linked and that those living in poor to self-isolate from this House because of contact with housing are more likely to suffer from poor mental an hon. Member, and I had to self-isolate a second time and/or physical health. because I had contact with somebody on a Sunday, Covid-19 has indeed thrown into stark relief the which I notified the House about. So I have had to existing and ongoing housing challenges that need to be self-isolate on two occasions. addressed.Itseemsself-evidentthathouseholdovercrowding People have had to spend more time in homes that is associated with greater risk of transmission of the are overcrowded, damp or unsafe. The economic fall-out virus because self-isolation, as we have heard, becomes of the pandemic may lead to an increase in evictions. much more difficult, as does shielding. That may well The Government have helped a wee bit with that. The have contributed to a higher death rate. implications for people potentially facing evictions from Analysis carried out by Inside Housing shows a clear poor-quality homes with rents that are just too expensive, correlation between overcrowding and covid death rates. and with their jobs on furlough—or perhaps even lost—are In addition, lockdown forces us to spend much more massive. We should all be worried and concerned about time at home, and doing so is much more challenging that. for those living in those overcrowded conditions. One These housing problems can be focused on in multiple study shows that nearly 20% of those in overcrowded ways, including the increase of supply to the detriment conditions during lockdown have experienced mental of other objectives and sustained reductions in housing or physical health problems due to a lack of space. benefits. There is not a day when we do not do a To return to the overcrowding example given by the housing case for someone back home and deal with right hon. Member for East Ham in his constituency, I their housing benefit as well. We deal with other things, know all too well what that is like in normal times: I but more often than not the housing benefit comes off grew up in a small three-apartment flat with my seven the back of that. older siblings, my mother and my stepfather as my I could give examples of issues for an entire day, but I mother waited an astonishing 28 years for the council to will give just one: people in low-income care jobs going allocate her suitable accommodation. It finally did in to work in a nursing home and coming home to a house 1982, on my 14th birthday. with two families because they could no longer afford I hope the right hon. Gentleman’s constituents do the £750-a-month rent on their low income. It is the not have to wait quite as long as my family did for issue of low incomes and very high rents that both the suitable accommodation, because I know the damage right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Lady referred to. caused by living one on top of the other with no space People had no other option but to move in with someone and no privacy in such overcrowded conditions. However, else but it meant that two nursing homes were affected even I cannot imagine how people can possibly cope by a diagnosis of coronavirus. I know that happened well with such overcrowding during lockdown and how back home. A number of people were working in a much more challenging lockdown makes such terrible nursing home, but when one person came in with living conditions. coronavirus, everyone in that home had to self-isolate as We cannot change the past, but the focus now must a result. Coronavirus therefore has effects far beyond be to ensure that more affordable homes are built. In people’s living locations. It is definitely a disease that is Scotland, the SNP Government have built 97,000 affordable seeking them out. homes since 2007. In the four years to 2020, the SNP I finish with this. Covid has merely put a lens on the Government in Scotland have delivered over 75% more problem of affordable housing that has existed for some affordable homes per head of population than in both time. The right hon. Gentleman was right when he said England and Wales. The Scottish Government have in setting the scene that it was a problem beforehand, recognised the positive social and economic impact that and it has been exacerbated by where we are. We need to investment in social housing brings, and remain committed take steps to address it. Mental health, family relationships to expanding the social housing stock. and now physical health are at stake. In Scotland, the £30 million rural and islands housing Mental health comes up in every debate we have funds support the delivery of affordable homes and are because it is real and everyone deals with people affected to be continued beyond March 2021, with the affordable every day. The hon. Lady asked whether the Minister housing supply programme having already delivered was available to come down to her surgery and meet 5,000 affordable homes in rural and island areas in its some of those people. I am sure the Minister is meeting first four years. There is still more to do. 191WH Household Overcrowding: Covid-1910 MARCH 2021 Household Overcrowding: Covid-19 192WH

[Patricia Gibson] to tackle overcrowding, which, there is little doubt, is directly linked to people catching and dying of covid in In its “Building more social housing” report, the this pandemic. Select Committee on Housing, Communities and Local I urge the Minister to be more ambitious about Government recommended that plans for building social housing—not just through “A social housebuilding programme should be top of the announcements, but through actual building. The Government’s agenda to rebuild the country from the impact of Government also need to abandon the effective freeze Covid-19.” on local housing allowance, to facilitate more secure The report went on to say: tenancies, and help more people move from temporary “The crisis has exposed our broken housing system. Families to more settled and suitable accommodation, which we in overcrowded homes have faced worse health outcomes.” have seen can be done. In the first instance, the Government need to help In addition, the UK Government need to abandon those living in overcrowded accommodation. Investing their bedroom tax, which in effect prices people out in more social housing is an obvious way to do that. It is of their homes. They also need to look afresh at the also vital to reverse effective cuts in local housing rates inhumane policy of no recourse to public funds and at and scrap poverty-inducing policies, such as the hated the real damage that that has done and continues to bedroom tax, which the Scottish Government have inflict on families. That has not been the case just completely mitigated in Scotland. during the pandemic, but it has certainly shown a clear The decision to maintain local authority housing vision of what that policy means. rates in cash terms in 2021-22 represents a freeze for We have suffered a global health pandemic, and it is private renters and puts at risk all the work done by the not over, but we can already start to learn the lessons of Scottish Government to support homeless people, and how we can do better in order to tackle deep-rooted and it potentially makes private sector tenancies unsustainable long-standing housing challenges such as overcrowding for some. Indeed, there are examples where the temporary and poor living conditions, which have a genuine impact restoration of local housing rates has facilitated moves on the mental and physical health of too many people. out of temporary accommodation. The freeze on local The word “home” should indeed conjure up images of housing rates for a Government who want to be taken safety and warmth—a place you want to be. For too seriously on tackling homelessness was not considered many families, poor and overcrowded conditions mean in last week’s Budget. that that is simply not the case. We know what the Meanwhile, the Scottish Government have an estimated challenges are and what measures are needed to tackle spend on the discretionary housing payment for 2021-22 and mitigate those challenges. I hope that the Minister of £82 million—an important tool used by councils to today will tell us how he and the Government intend to safeguard tenancies and prevent homelessness—with just get on and get down to that important work. £71 million of that used to mitigate the bedroom tax for more than 70,000 households in Scotland, to help them sustain their tenancies, with another £11 million spent 5.26 pm on mitigating other cruel welfare cuts, such as changes (Bristol West) (Lab) [V]: It is a to local housing allowance rates. pleasure to serve with you in the Chair for this Long before the pandemic hit, the policy of no debate, Sir Edward, and to follow the hon. Member for recourse to public funds was pushing working families North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson), the SNP into abject poverty, forcing them into unsustainable debt spokesperson. First, I send heartfelt congratulations to and into homelessness, or unsafe, overcrowded and my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen insecure housing. The Children’s Society highlighted Timms) on initiating this vital debate. He set out eloquently last year that families with no recourse to public funds, and in clear and moving terms just what is wrong, why without access to housing benefit or social housing, it is so relevant to the impact of covid and what we need find it immensely difficult to shelter their children properly. to do to solve it. He also gave the truly human consequences That matters because covid-19 is no respecter of by reading out a very upsetting letter from one of his immigration status and everyone needs help to get young constituents, who is spending years in overcrowded through and survive this crisis. conditions. The Scottish Government cannot change those policies I also welcome the characteristically well informed and because 85% of welfare expenditure and income passionately expressed speech from my hon. Friend the replacement benefits remain reserved to Westminster. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh), All the Scottish Government can do is try to mitigate who is such an inspiring campaigning MP, and the the worst impact of those policies, bearing in mind that speech from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim they are required to present a balanced budget every Shannon), who does such excellent work with the all-party single year, so that the huge sums of money spent trying parliamentary group for healthy homes and buildings. to protect Scots from the regressive policies of this The English housing survey found that 4% of households Government mean that less money can be spent on in England are overcrowded. That is about 829,000 other areas. I hope the Minister will reflect on that. households—just think how many children that comes We know that there are real housing challenges across to. Overcrowding is more common for renters than the UK. The Scottish Government have a demonstrable owner-occupiers: it affects 1% of owner-occupiers, record of trying to tackle them; the UK Government, compared with 9% of social renters and 7% of private not so much. Covid has thrown those challenges into renting households. Overcrowding is at the highest rate stark relief. The Minister knows that the solutions here in both the social rented and the private rented sectors are not brain surgery. We know what needs to be done since records began. 193WH Household Overcrowding: Covid-1910 MARCH 2021 Household Overcrowding: Covid-19 194WH

From my own constituency, I can give numerous good quality, truly affordable homes that we need to examples of the real hardship—the reality—of overcrowded tackle overcrowding, and also to boost jobs and growth. homes. People have been waiting for years and struggling There was no mention of the massive increases in council for so long, and this last year has been truly awful. housing that we need now to deal with overcrowding. Covid has exposed the consequences when people do There was nothing about dealing with the crisis in the not have decent housing. Living in overcrowded homes private rented sector, with so many people struggling hampers people’s ability to self-isolate when they have with drops in income as a result of the crisis, and covid-19, but even before this time, overcrowded housing nothing to create more truly affordable homes. Proposed had been associated with respiratory illness in children. changes to permitted development will only make it Now, it is so much worse. worse. A Government-sponsored review of permitted The National Housing Federation found that 85% of development found that it leads to a higher risk of overcrowded families have seen their mental health overcrowding—a Government-sponsored review. negatively affected by the overcrowding. Adults in 81% of As we all know, overcrowding causes both physical overcrowded families—four out of five—have seen their and mental health problems. That situation has been personal relationships negatively affected. And it is no getting worse rapidly over the last few years and now we surprise, if we try to imagine that. are in a health crisis, so there is also a cost to the The former Children’s Commissioner found that poor NHS—a significant cost. As the Government have failed housing conditions disrupt children’s education, affect to deal with the gaps in financial support or the impact health and wellbeing, and leave children with no safe of a flawed universal credit system, too many families space to play. That compounds the existing inequality have been forced into arrears this year. The fear of between children who are in overcrowded housing with losing their home and increased debt has pushed many parents struggling to make ends meet and those who into overcrowded conditions. have had plenty of space throughout the crisis and good Decent, affordable, warm, healthy, net zero carbon facilities and whose parents have been able to manage homes should not be too much to ask for everyone in well financially. There has been suffering on all sides, this country at any time. Covid has shown up starkly but that inequality and the inability to make up that gap not only that that does not happen, but what happens as have been devastating for so many families. a consequence when such homes are treated as optional The Resolution Foundation reported last July on the by the Government. impact of housing circumstances on people during this The then Children’sCommissioner wrote to the Secretary crisis and identified how the risk increases for lower-income of State one year ago: and ethnic minority families—often, the working poor. “The government needs to provide local authorities with the I am sure that the Minister will have read that report, resources to source these homes and combined with a clear but if he has not, I hope he will. expectation that homes need to be sourced quickly. I would like to Increased covid risks for black, Asian and other see this combined with clear messaging to landlords: co-operate or the government will act. It would be a particular disgrace to ethnic minority people are compounded by poor housing. have closed down apartments – many run by businesses which will As Baroness Lawrence said in her recent review for be receiving government funds in the next few months – while Labour, not only are black, Asian and minority ethnic close by families are homeless. I would urge you to commit that people dying at a disproportionate rate; they are also any hotel or property business receiving government support, or over-exposed to the virus and more likely to suffer the wage subsidies, in the next few months will have to commit to economic consequences, and that is multiplied, as others housing families at cost. If local authorities are supported by the have said, by poor housing. government with both resourcing and clear messaging I believe we can get these families a decent home to call their own – at least The Government response has been inadequate. The for the next four months.” Women and Equalities Committee found a lack of clear Those were the words of Anne Longfield a year ago. guidance for those trying to self-isolate in overcrowded accommodation. That has been remedied just today, In December, the Woman and Equalities Committee but the focus has been entirely on the individual rather said: than any sort of Government support. High rents in “The guidance that the Government has produced for those in insecure housing, with poor living conditions, put millions overcrowded housing is substandard. There was no clear guidance of people in debt just when their income fell. Local in one place from the Government on how to overcome the practical challenges of living in overcrowded, and in some cases authorities did all they could to support people in multigenerational, accommodation. This continues to be the case challenging living situations throughout the pandemic. nine months after the country first entered lockdown. Werecommend The Government promised to do whatever was necessary— that the Government should, within the next four weeks”— whatever it takes. How often did we hear that phrase? bear in mind, this was in December— They said they would support councils during the pandemic. “publish clear, culturally competent guidance with practical I am afraid to say that the Prime Minister has not kept recommendations on how to self-isolate for people living in to that promise. His council tax hike is an example of overcrowded, and/or multi-generational, accommodation…We that. further recommend that the Government by the end of summer We need a vision for our country. We need a vision 2021 produce a strategy to reduce overcrowding due to its poor that is better than what we had when we went into 2020. health impacts.” It is unacceptable that we came into the pandemic with Just today, the Minister has produced guidance on so many people exposed through overcrowded housing. overcrowding and covid. I am not surprised, but I am It would be unforgivable if the Government did not saddened, to see that the Government’s emphasis is learn from this and rebuild better, but the only references solely on what individuals need to do—individuals forced to housing in the Budget speech were about a stamp to live in overcrowded accommodation. That reflects duty holiday and 95% mortgage schemes. These short- the answers to other parliamentary questions. There is sighted interventions do nothing to build the kind of no sign of any Government strategy. 195WH Household Overcrowding: Covid-1910 MARCH 2021 Household Overcrowding: Covid-19 196WH

[Thangam Debbonaire] Chancellor set out a £65 billion three-point plan to support jobs and businesses as we emerge from the The Confederation of British Industry, the Local pandemic and forge our recovery. Housing is a key part Government Association, trade unions, the Church of of that picture, from protecting tenants and landlords England, housing and homelessness charities, numerous to ensuring that our house building sector remains open think-tanks and other specialists all agree that we need and active. massive increases in publicly owned, truly affordable For many people, the pandemic has been made tolerable, housing. Why do the Government not believe in that? at least, by a good home and garden shared with the Where was that in the Budget last week? It would boost people they care about, but for too many people—examples the economy and give us jobs that we really need—good, were movingly set out by the right hon. Member for secure jobs—as well as dramatically improving living East Ham—in cramped and substandard accommodation, conditions, education and the health of hundreds of or unable to walk to shops, green spaces or services, thousands of our citizens. their experience of the pandemic was exacerbated by I ask the Minister: why have the Government not their housing conditions. Spacious, well-equipped homes taken a public health response to overcrowding in housing? that offer green space and access to vital amenities must How and when are they going to do so? Does he be the standard if we are to recover from the social as acknowledge that allowing a large number of people, well as the economic effects of covid. including children, to live in overcrowded and unhealthy As the right hon. Gentleman outlined, the evidence accommodation is detrimental to their health, education suggests that housing conditions can play a role in the and socialisation? Does he agree with the former Children’s transmission of the virus and in people’s ability to Commissioner when she challenged the Secretary of self-isolate safely, including those living in overcrowded State at the start of the crisis or not? If not, why? If he conditions and multi-generational households. We know does, what plans does he have to meet some or all of her that black and minority ethnic groups are more likely to recommendations now? It is not too late. live in overcrowded conditions and are disproportionately Has the Minister read the briefings from the Resolution impacted by the transmission of the virus.The Government Foundation that were published last July? What lessons are hugely grateful for all the research that has been does he intend to take from them? Has he met the undertaken—by the Scientific Advisory Group for foundation? Has he read the report by the Women and Emergencies, Public Health England and the Women Equalities Committee? Has he discussed it with the and Equalities Committee—which demonstrates that. The Chair? How will he implement the recommendations, Government are absolutely steadfast in our determination and on what timescale? Will he commit to the timescale to make the housing system work for everyone, including recommended by the Committee—the end of summer by tackling overcrowding and supporting vulnerable this year—for a clear strategy? Will he consider asking people to live in safe and decent homes. the Office for National Statistics to collect data on Members have rightly spoken today about the prevalence overcrowding, because we do not have the data that we of overcrowding. Between 2019 and 2020, as the hon. really need? Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) said, Will the Minister acknowledge that if the Government the recorded state of overcrowding across all tenures in want to solve that problem, they have to ensure that England was 4%, and that rate requires action. In many there is a massive increase in truly affordable and secure parts of the country, including in the constituency of council and housing association homes? Will he address the right hon. Member for East Ham, the situation is directly the young person whom my right hon. Friend far worse. Newham has the highest level of household the Member for East Ham quoted at the start of his overcrowding in England, with 28,000 households on speech? Will the Minister explain directly to that young the waiting list in the overcrowding “reasonable preference” person why the Government have not acted for her so category, as of 31 March last year. We know that for far? My right hon. Friend is correct: now is the time for some of those people in substandard housing conditions— a moral imperative to ensure that there is decent housing. especially in built-up areas with high deprivation, such Everyone should have a decent home. The covid crisis as Newham—the pandemic has been particularly difficult. has reinforced that, and the Government must commit The Government have responded at pace since the to end overcrowding and do it today. onset of the pandemic to provide a range of guidance to support and advise people who live in poor housing 5.36 pm conditions, including overcrowded housing. We have kept our guidance under continual review in response to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, the latest available evidence, stressing the importance of Communities and Local Government (Eddie Hughes): It ventilation and cleaning. We have made information is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward, available on people’s rights as tenants, and on how to not least because, as the hon. Member for Strangford work with landlords and local authorities to address (Jim Shannon) said, this is my first debate as Minister. hazardous issues. It will possibly be more memorable for me than for you. I believe that our measures are the right ones. I thank the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Where vulnerable tenants are living in overcrowded Timms) for securing the debate and other hon. Members accommodation, local authorities can use their enforcement for their important contributions to it. powers to require a landlord to remedy a serious Covid-19 has brought unprecedented changes in how overcrowding hazard. For shared houses and flats occupied we live and work, with people’s experience of their by people who are not related—homes in multiple housing conditions brought into strong focus as never occupation—the Government have clarified the minimum before. Since the start of the pandemic, we have provided room sizes in shared accommodation, making it illegal unprecedented economic support for households and for landlords to let out a bedroom that is smaller than businesses up and down the country. In the Budget, the 6.51 square metres to one person. 197WH Household Overcrowding: Covid-1910 MARCH 2021 Household Overcrowding: Covid-19 198WH

HMOs are at increased risk of overcrowding, and the in affordable housing over five years—the largest investment occupiers are likely to be vulnerable. That is why we for a decade. That includes the £11.5 billion affordable require that all larger HMOs—those with five or more homes programme, which will provide up to 180,000 tenants—must be licensed with their local council. Under homes across the country; and a further £9 billion for the HMO licensing scheme, a local authority can set the shared ownership and affordable homes programme, conditions that landlords must follow to improve the running to 2023, which will deliver 250,000 new affordable quality of the accommodation, and the local authority homes. The affordable homes programme will deliver has the power to inspect properties without notice and more than double the social rent of the current programme, order improvements to conditions and any health hazards, with around 32,000 social rented properties due to be including gas and electrical safety. delivered We are determined to crack down on the smaller number of unscrupulous landlords who neglect their Jim Shannon: Are the Government committed to properties and exploit their tenants. We want such co-ownership—to helping those who want co-ownership landlords either to improve the service that they offer, homes, and supporting the building projects? The or to leave the business. This is why we have strengthened co-ownership scheme enables people who have maybe local authority enforcement powers, introducing financial 50% of the value, or a small portion of it, to get a home penalties of up to £30,000 and extended rent repayment earlier. Are the Government committed to that? orders for landlords and agents who break the rules, with banning orders for the most serious and prolific Eddie Hughes: I will have to come back to the hon. offenders. Gentleman on the specific scheme that he is talking about. The Government are certainly aiming to do Local authorities also have a duty to take enforcement things to help people. For example, we have 95% mortgages action if they find seriously hazardous conditions. That to make sure more people have the opportunity to buy is why we are overhauling and simplifying the housing their own home. I will come back to him on the scheme health safety rating system, which is the tool used to that he mentioned. assess hazardous conditions in rented homes. If a HHSRS assessment identifies a serious hazard, which includes The right hon. Member for East Ham asked about overcrowding, the local council must take enforcement prioritising the building of three-bed properties and above. action against the landlord. That includes banning orders When the national planning policy framework was revised for the worst offenders, and it applies to all privately in July 2018, it set an expectation that local planning rented properties. We also brought forward legislation authorities must put in place planning policies that on letting homes fit for human habitation, empowering identify the size, type and tenure of homes required for tenants to take their own action against landlords who different groups in the community. We have not changed let unfit properties. that, and we would therefore expect it to be a key consideration when planning housing at a local level. Siobhain McDonagh: Chair, am I allowed to intervene, The right hon. Gentleman also asked about local if the Minister is willing to give way? housing allowance. During the pandemic, the Government increased the local housing allowance rate to the 30th Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): If the Minister wants percentile, which meant that 1.5 million people were to give way, yes. able to access that additional payment, which averaged £600 annually. Eddie Hughes: Of course. Siobhain McDonagh: I appreciate that we are Siobhain McDonagh: I am sure that the Minister unrelentingly miserable in our stories about our constituents’ would not wish to take credit for a piece of legislation terrible housing circumstances, but will the Minister that was introduced by our great colleague, my hon. join me in thanking Channel 4 and journalist Jackie Friend the Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck). Long for helping one of my families? Jackie Long Eddie Hughes: Under no circumstances was I attempting visited my constituent, who was going out to be a carer, to take credit for that Bill, and I was delighted to be in to see the circumstances in which she was living during the House when it became law. I completely endorse it, the lockdown—in one room with her son. Jackie Long and I understand the comments of the hon. Member and the viewers were so moved by my constituent’s for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh). story that they collected a deposit, and that woman is now in a flat of her own with her son. Stephen Timms: I thank the Minister for the points that he is making. Can he tell us whether the Government Eddie Hughes: That sounds like a particularly moving will accept the recommendation of the Women and case. During the pandemic, we have seen society pulling Equalities Committee and bring forward a strategy to together in incredible ways, and that is a great example. tackle overcrowding by the end of the summer? Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. You have Eddie Hughes: The Government are already doing three minutes left, Minister. things to tackle overcrowding, not least with our substantial investment in new house building. The right hon. Eddie Hughes: I will move quickly. Gentleman raised a number of points in his speech, and We welcome the report from the Archbishop of I will cover some of them. He asked if we expect a new Canterbury’s housing commission, and we will continue wave of investment in social house building. We need to work with all organisations, such as the Church of house building of all tenures, and the Government have England, to develop affordable housing programmes. demonstrated their commitment to increasing the affordable The Government are reviewing our own land ownership housing supply. We are investing more than £12 billion to ensure that it is put to good use. 199WH Household Overcrowding: Covid-1910 MARCH 2021 Household Overcrowding: Covid-19 200WH

[Eddie Hughes] the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, which will be looking at ways of not just The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden mentioned decarbonising social housing, but reducing the cost of people in temporary accommodation who have not fuel and therefore fuel poverty. registered with their GP for a vaccine. I urge them to do so urgently. We are doing great work to ensure homeless 5.49 pm people have access to the vaccine across the country, and I want to ensure that those in temporary accommodation Stephen Timms: I thank everybody who has contributed have access. Regarding the invitation to her advice to the debate.My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and surgery, I have good examples in my own constituency Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) made a characteristically of cases such as the ones she raised. powerful contribution, as did the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I am grateful to them both, I thank the hon. Member for Strangford for his kind and to the Front Benchers. comments at the start. I was lucky enough to attend a number of meetings of the all-party parliamentary The real housing crisis is about people trapped at the group for healthy homes and buildings, and I value the bottom end of the rental market, paying unaffordable great work it does. rents in overcrowded, inadequate homes. As we have been reminded, there was absolutely nothing in the The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran Budget to help. It may well be, as it was in the 1960s, (Patricia Gibson) mentioned a social house building that we have to wait for a Labour Government, and for programme. As I said earlier, I feel that the Government my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Thangam are already committed to a strong investment in building Debbonaire) to become the housing Secretary, for us to houses of all types and tenures. get the programme of investment that we need. The hon. Member for Bristol West mentioned the I would just say to the Minister, as he takes up his idea of the Government doing whatever it takes. I feel role—I know that he is very enthusiastic— that councils up and down the country will be incredibly grateful for the investment that this Government have made—we have provided un-ring-fenced money for councils 5.50 pm to use at their own discretion. Finally, we have the Motion lapsed, and sitting adjourned without Question £50 million social housing decarbonisation fund through put (Standing Order No. 10(14)). 39WS Written Statements 10 MARCH 2021 Written Statements 40WS

to reach net zero, including through mandating the use Written Statement of sustainable aviation fuels.All domestic aviation emissions are captured in carbon budgets. Wednesday 10 March 2021 The Government welcome the “Union Connectivity Review Interim Report” published today by Sir Peter. The report marks a key step in looking at whether and how connectivity across the UK can be improved in TRANSPORT order to support this Government’s aim to build a stronger and fairer economy for the future. To support this, we are making £20 million development funding Union Connectivity Report and available to begin assessing options on road and rail Aviation Tax Consultation schemes which have been identified by the review as crucial for cross-border connectivity. To achieve the aim of better connecting the UK, the report has considered The Secretary of State for Transport (Grant Shapps): the creation of a new UK strategic transport network The Government are committed to the deepest possible that will allow people and commerce to move freely by integration of the four nations of the United Kingdom, road, rail, sea and air, spreading ideas and investment so that businesses and individuals have the infrastructure to all corners of this country. they need to trade, travel and do business across the whole country. To that end, in June, Sir Peter Hendy CBE was This network of improved routes, which will now tasked by the Prime Minister with exploring ways in form the main focus of Sir Peter’scontinuing investigations, which transport can better connect the four nations of would form the transport spine of the country, facilitating the United Kingdom, levelling up all parts of the country quicker and easier travel and trade between all corners and helping us build back better from the pandemic. of this country, levelling up communities and maximising The Government are also announcing that the consultation national potential. on aviation tax reform, announced at Budget 2020, will I am placing a copy of Sir Peter Hendy’s report in the be published in spring 2021. Libraries of both Houses. The consultation will include options to change the Attachmentscanbeviewedonlineat:http://www.parliament. APD treatment for domestic flights, such as reintroducing uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers- a return leg exemption or creation of a new lower domestic statements/written-statement/Commons/2021-03-10/ rate. In addition to looking at the case for increasing the HCWS838 number of international distance bands, we will continue [HCWS838] to decarbonise domestic aviation as part of our ambition

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 10 March 2021

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 853 SCOTLAND—continued Engagements...... 853 Covid-19: Support for Scottish Businesses ...... 848 New Free Trade Agreements ...... 845 SCOTLAND...... 845 Public Spending: Budget 2021...... 851 COP26 ...... 847 Union Connectivity Review ...... 850 WRITTEN STATEMENT

Wednesday 10 March 2021

Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 39WS Union Connectivity Report and Aviation Tax Consultation...... 39WS No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 17 March 2021

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 690 Wednesday No. 187 10 March 2021

CONTENTS

Wednesday 10 March 2021

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 845] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Northern Ireland Protocol [Col. 865] Answer to urgent question—(Brandon Lewis)

Hong Kong: Electoral Reforms [Col. 881] Answer to urgent question—(Nigel Adams)

Electrical Safety (Online Sales) [Col. 894] Bill presented, and read the First time

Pig Husbandry (Farrowing) [Col. 895] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Sir David Amess)—agreed to

Estimates Day (3rd Allotted Day) Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport [Col. 899] Cabinet Office: COP26 [Col. 935]

Estimates Agreed [Col. 967]

Petition [Col. 970]

Nord Stream 2 Pipeline [Col. 971] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Residential Leaseholders and Interim Fire Safety Costs [Col. 121WH] Automatic Computer-based Decisions: Legal Status [Col. 144WH] Maternal Mental Health [Col. 150WH] Noise Pollution and Military Aviation [Col. 176WH] Household Overcrowding: Covid-19 [Col. 183WH] General Debates

Written Statement [Col. 39WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]