COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE

Official Hansard No. 2, 2002 WEDNESDAY, 13 MARCH 2002

FORTIETH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FIRST PERIOD

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SITTING DAYS—2002 Month Date February 12, 13, 14, 18, 19, 20, 21 March 11, 12, 13, 14, 19, 20, 21 May 14, 15, 16, 27, 28, 29, 30 June 3, 4, 5, 6, 17, 18, 19, 20, 24, 25, 26, 27 August 19, 20, 21, 22, 26, 27, 28, 29 September 16, 17, 18, 19, 23, 24, 25, 26 October 14, 15, 16, 17, 21, 22, 23, 24 November 11, 12, 13, 14 December 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12

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WEDNESDAY, 13 MARCH Plant Breeder’s Rights Amendment Bill 2002— First Reading ...... 603 Second Reading...... 603 Regional Forest Agreements Bill 2002— In Committee...... 605 Matters of Public Interest— Royal Women’s Hospital, Melbourne: Abortions...... 638 Australian Labor Party: Shadow Public Administration and Home Affairs Portfolio...... 639 Health: Waste...... 642 Environment: Ranger and Jabiluka Uranium Mines...... 645 Judiciary: Discretion...... 648 Extradition Law...... 650 Questions Without Notice— Lucas Heights: Nuclear Reactor...... 651 Workplace Relations: Reform...... 652 Health: Program Funding ...... 653 Drugs: Strategies ...... 654 Aged Care: Policy...... 655 Education: Protection of Children...... 656 Superannuation Complaints Tribunal: Appointments ...... 657 Taxation: Families ...... 658 Defence Signals Directorate...... 659 Pensions and Benefits: Social Security...... 660 Inspector-General of Taxation...... 661 Employment: Job Network...... 661 Economy: Current Account Deficit...... 663 Questions Without Notice: Additional Answers— Economy: Debt Management ...... 664 Privilege...... 664 Parliamentary Language ...... 675 Questions Without Notice: Take Note of Answers— Lucas Heights: Nuclear Reactor...... 675 Employment: Job Network...... 680 Notices— Presentation ...... 681 Committees— Selection of Bills Committee—Report...... 682 Notices— Presentation ...... 684 Business— Rearrangement...... 685 Committees— A Certain Maritime Incident Committee—Variation of Reference...... 685 Notices— Postponement ...... 686 Leave of Absence...... 686 Ministers of State (Post-Retirement Employment Restrictions) Bill 2002— First Reading ...... 686 Second Reading...... 687 SENATE CONTENTS—continued

Human Rights: Tibet...... 688 Former Parliamentarians: Business Appointments— Suspension of Standing Orders...... 689 Committees— Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee—Reference...... 694 Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee—Reference...... 694 Parliamentarians’ Entitlements— Suspension of Standing Orders...... 695 Australian Grand Prix: Tobacco Advertising...... 699 Committees— Employment, Workplace Relations and Education References Committee— Reference...... 700 Business— Rearrangement...... 700 First Speech...... 700 Matters of Public Importance— National Action Plan on Salinity and Water Quality...... 703 Committees— Community Affairs Legislation Committee ...... 714 Employment, Workplace Relations and Education Legislation Committee— Reports...... 714 Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee— Report ...... 714 Budget— Consideration by Legislation Committees—Reports ...... 715 Committees— Scrutiny of Bills—Report...... 715 Documents— Auditor-General’s Reports—Report No. 36 of 2001-02 ...... 715 Delegation Reports— Parliamentary Delegation to France ...... 715 Government Agency Contracts— Return to Order...... 715 Committees— Membership...... 715 Australian Citizenship Legislation Amendment Bill 2002, Higher Education Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 1) 2002, Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission Amendment Bill 2002, Coal Industry Repeal (Validation of Proclamation) Bill 2002, Family and Community Services Legislation Amendment (Further Simplification of International Payments) Bill 2002, Taxation Laws Amendment (Superannuation) Bill (No. 1) 2002, Income Tax (Superannuation Payments Withholding Tax) Bill 2002, Taxation Laws Amendment (Film Incentives) Bill 2002, Protection of the Sea (Prevention of Pollution from Ships) Amendment Bill 2002 and Student Assistance Amendment Bill 2002— First Reading ...... 716 Second Reading...... 717 SENATE CONTENTS—continued

Regional Forest Agreements Bill 2002— In Committee...... 723 Adjournment— Population Policy...... 726 Cancer Council of New South Wales: Research Projects...... 729 International Women’s Day...... 731 Adelaide Fringe Festival...... 731 Documents— Tabling...... 733 Tabling...... 733 Indexed Lists of Files ...... 733

Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 603

Wednesday, 13 March 2002 Of course, the benefits that derive from new plant ————— varieties do not simply fall into our hands. They are the result of significant intellectual effort and The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator the skilful application of knowledge. West) took the chair at 9.30 a.m. and read Australia is fortunate to have innovative people prayers. skilled in the breeding of new plant varieties— PLANT BREEDER’S RIGHTS because innovative varieties are essential to meet AMENDMENT BILL 2002 Australian and world demands providing, inter alia First Reading • the building blocks for a diverse range of Senator PATTERSON (Victoria—Min- industries ister for Health and Ageing) (9.31 a.m.)—I • competitive, high quality food and fibre move: products to meet increasing world demand That the following bill be introduced: A Bill • practical solutions to health and environ- for an Act to amend the Plant Breeder’s Rights mental concerns. Act 1994, and for related purposes. The Act is based on Australia’s membership of Question agreed to. the International Convention for the Protection of Senator PATTERSON (Victoria—Min- New Varieties of Plants (UPOV) 1991, a United ister for Health and Ageing) (9.31 a.m.)—I Nations multilateral agreement establishing an move: internationally harmonised regime for exclusive intellectual property grants relating to new plant That this bill may proceed without formalities varieties. The UPOV system, built on uniform, and be now read a first time. clearly defined principles, encourages investment, Question agreed to. innovation, multiplication and release of new Bill read a first time. plant varieties in, and between, member coun- tries. Second Reading Australia’s PBR scheme is a significant success Senator PATTERSON (Victoria—Min- story. One new variety is registered each day, ister for Health and Ageing) (9.31 a.m.)—I with over twenty new major export crop varieties table the explanatory memorandum and registered each year. PBR also stimulates a steady move: flow of new varieties from overseas bringing investment and technology—approximately 60% That this bill be now read a second time. of all applications for registration are from over- I seek leave to have the second reading seas. speech incorporated in Hansard. Australia’s achievements in plant breeding are Leave granted. significant in their own right. The speech read as follows— We need look no further than CSIRO which is leading the world with its seed retaining phalar- The purpose of the proposed amendments to the ises, high yielding, rust resistant winter wheats Plant Breeder’s Rights Act 1994 (the Act) is to and starch-enhanced barleys. Similarly, the export • clarify the rights of plant breeders in certain flower industry is based on our unique native circumstances where restrictions are imposed varieties, so well displayed in the 2000 Olympic • enhance the access of breeders to the Plant bouquets. Breeder’s Rights (PBR) scheme However, in this competitive world, others are • improve the administration of the Act and of also capitalising on our plants. If we are to make the PBR scheme. the most of our unique mega-diverse flora, we have to encourage plant breeding. The PBR I take this opportunity to flag the simple fact that scheme provides such encouragement, directly plants are indispensable to our daily lives. promoting innovation by establishing a legal in- Pharmaceuticals, fruit and vegetables, insecti- tellectual property right in a new plant variety. cides, industrial starch, field crops, essential oils, The certainty of this legal ownership and the op- flowers, dyes, wine/beer, textiles, livestock for- portunity to commercialise the innovation stimu- age, edible oils, timber, glues, rope, ethanol, var- late the intellectual effort, private investment and nish, paper—an endless list testifies to the im- technology transfer that Australia requires. The portance of plant life to human life. PBR owner is provided with opportunity for re- 604 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 ward, subject to certain provisions which safe- amended section 49 which empowers the Minister guard the public interest. to set conditions relating to existing and proposed Under the Act, PBR is the right to disallow others PBR grants. from acts of production, reproduction, condition- A further amendment, to be inserted as new sec- ing, offering for sale, sale, import, export, and tion 18, allows for certain public interest restric- stocking in relation to the above of propagating tions to be placed on the exercise of PBR. The material of the plant variety. amendment provides that when other laws of the It is not the right specifically to carry out those land restrict the normal exercise of PBR, and acts. This is because PBR is a form of patent leg- when such legislation authorises a person to do an islation, as confirmed by a recent High Court act that would normally be subject to the PBR ruling. Implicitly, PBR coexists with other laws owner’s right of disallowance, ‘equitable remu- of the land and those laws, may, for example, be neration’ must be paid. For example, the amend- capable of regulating PBR commercialisation ment will ensure that statutory marketing authori- activities. For instance, competition policy legis- ties are able to exercise their legally enforceable lation may regulate PBR related commercial ac- rights regarding exports and that PBR owners will tivities, or state legislation may regulate the sale receive remuneration if their rights are restricted and marketing of varieties. In other words, there as a consequence. This restriction is entirely con- are a number of potential public interest influ- sistent with public interest considerations and ences affecting the exercise of PBR. with international best practice as exemplified in the international treaty on these matters, UPOV All the proposed amendments are consistent with 1991. Australia’s membership of UPOV and have wide industry and community support. In summary, section 18 amendments clarify that the PBR owner has the opportunity to exercise This Bill includes significant clarification to sec- their right of disallowance in normal circum- tion 18 of the Act. stances. They confirm that coexisting legislation, Section 18 was designed to protect public interest implicitly in the public interest, may modify the concerns regarding limitations that might be exercise of PBR, and, in certain circumstances, placed on the use of the propagating material. For the breeder must be remunerated. They reaffirm example, reflecting the concern that the PBR the intent of the legislation; promote greater har- owner should not be able to prevent, say, the mony with the UPOV international intellectual making of bread or the brewing of beer from le- property system; provide more certainty for our gitimately purchased grain. international trading partners; and, thereby, fa- However, it is not intended to deny the holder of cilitate the inflow of plant variety investment and PBR the opportunity to exercise their right of technology transfer. exclusion regarding normal commercial activities, The remaining amendments are administrative. including, for example, the first point of sale in They are diverse and include: the trading of food commodities. • providing for equity between domestic and Section 18 is misinterpreted by some parties who imported varieties in the use of synonyms see the provision as a means of avoiding the PBR and making the unauthorised use of a syno- owner’s right of disallowance in normal commer- nym an infringement; cial circumstances. As a consequence, some 90% • clarifying the circumstances in which the of PBR protected grain varieties in Australia pass breeder’s right is exhausted; through the commercial system without the PBR • breeder having any opportunity to seek reward for providing discretion to cancel provisional their innovation. protection in certain circumstances; • The inequity of this is obvious. Moreover, it is a correcting inequities regarding the payment clear disincentive to investment in plant breeding of fees; and is a likely explanation why innovation in • further protecting commercially sensitive plant breeding in the field crops sector is lagging information; that of other sectors. • compelling the reasonable provision of mate- By deleting section 18 of the Act we remove the rials for test growings; possibility of misinterpretation, promote invest- • clarifying the priority date for lodgement of ment in plant innovation and better align the Act application; with UPOV 1991. Public interest concerns related • to preventing limitations on how propagating making explicit the grantee right to initiate material may be used are picked up under the infringement actions; Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 605

• extending Plant Breeder’s Rights Advisory REGIONAL FOREST AGREEMENTS Committee appointments from two to three BILL 2002 years; In Committee • amending and making cross-references, cor- recting transcription errors, various clarifica- Consideration resumed from 12 March. tions and associated simplification of lan- The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN guage. (Senator Lightfoot)—The committee is I will not comment on each of these amendments. considering Australian Greens amendment However, let me take as an example, the amend- (5) on sheet 2432 revised. ment that facilitates experimentation. I refer to the Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (9.33 proposal to exempt on-farm testing and research as activities that could threaten the ability to reg- a.m.)—The question before the committee at ister new varieties. the moment is whether or not there should be a binding commitment on the state govern- Researchers must enlist the help of farmers to test new varieties and products in normal farming ments that have signed regional forest situations. This practice is essential if the true agreements that they will carry out the envi- potential of the innovation is to be realistically ronmental components of those agreements: evaluated. the establishment of comprehensive and ade- While in no way offsetting their contribution, quate reserves and the commitment to ecol- farmers expect, in many cases, to harvest the re- ogically sustainable management, which sidual material and to dispose of it in the market means sustaining the environments through- place along with their normal commercial prod- out the forest domain. I pointed out in the uct. debate last night that the current state of af- Under PBR this could qualify as a ‘sale’ of the fairs with the regional forest agreements is variety and start the ‘one-year’ time clock within that the Commonwealth is bound in its which a PBR application must be lodged. How- commitment to compensate the woodchip ever, many varieties take more than one year of companies if any areas of forest are protected testing. Some take 2, 3, or more years before a for the value of those forests as if they had decision can be made to register and the new va- been logged, but the states are not bound in riety can be released. their obligation to act on ecologically sus- Activity enabling the registration of new varieties tainable principles and protect rare and en- in the circumstances that I have outlined should dangered species and so on. be recognised as valid, and is consistent with what is envisaged under UPOV. The minister, who entered the debate early Therefore, the Government proposes to recognise on, misled the Senate by saying that the extended periods for on-farm and experimental states are bound to carry out those obliga- testing as valid pre-registration activities. tions. When you look at the regional forest In conclusion, these amendments will clarify agreements it explicitly states that the envi- certain aspects of the legislation, enhance the ronmental obligations are not binding on the access of breeders to the PBR scheme and im- government. The minister has not seen to prove its administration. The amendments under- address that because he knows he is in the pin the broader initiatives announced by the wrong. I have made that abundantly clear in Prime Minister in the Backing Australia’s Ability this debate. package. They will further improve the environ- The question now really becomes aca- ment for increased plant innovation and invest- ment in Australia and for our exports of IP inten- demic. What the Crean Labor Party is doing sive products and services. here is joining the Howard government in endorsing a piece of legislation which says: Ordered that further consideration of the the states are not bound but the Common- second reading of this bill be adjourned to wealth is; the woodchip corporations are the first day of the next period of sittings, in compensated, but the protective mechanisms accordance with standing order 111. for the environment are not going to be en- forceable. One example that has arisen dur- ing the course of this debate has been buffer areas around streams. I think Senator Mur- 606 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 phy gave some good examples of how these Heritage value, not only by Australian scien- are breached. tific authorities— Under the Forest Practices Code in several Senator Ian Macdonald—You said, states, and certainly in Tasmania, when it ‘World Heritage listed.’ comes to river buffers around streams, 40 Senator BROWN—If I said, ‘World metres on either side of the stream must be Heritage listed’, the minister might read it protected. When it comes to permanent out. You will find him changing, ducking and streams, 10 metres more from the tops of altering— banks, not from the centre of the river but the tops of the banks, should be protected, but Senator Ian Macdonald—You will not they are not. Time after time, Forestry Tas- answer it because you know you have been mania breaches the Forest Practices Code. caught out. Senator Murphy pointed to a case where, Senator BROWN—It is becoming a habit even though it is somewhat of a watchdog on of this minister now to misrepresent people its own activities, it was fined $1,000 for a and to try to divert— breach of the Forest Practices Code. It is Senator Ian Macdonald interjecting— doing it repeatedly. In almost every coupe Senator BROWN—You might note that I that you go to in the Tasmanian forests there am being interjected upon, Mr Temporary are massive breaches of its own code. Chairman. It is becoming a habit of this This commission does not abide by the minister to try to divert this debate from the law or the ethics of law that it has drawn up issue at hand—the forests—toward vilifying itself. The Australian Greens are asking, by the people who want to protect the forests. moving a proposed new section, for the He has brought up the matter of World Heri- components of the law which apply to For- tage value forests. The forests of the Great estry Tasmania and which apply under this Western Tiers are of World Heritage value. It legislation relating to the environmental is my submission, and scientists will agree commitments and the good management with this, that the forests of the Tarkine, the commitments, because some of them are largest temperate rainforests in Australia, are certainly not what I would call environ- also of World Heritage value. But they have mental, to be made binding. The Labor Party not been included in the World Heritage joins the government in saying that it does listing—to use the word the minister uses— not want to make them binding. because the state Labor government in Tas- The question here is: why not make these mania and the federal Liberal government provisions binding? That is a question that and its predecessors in the Keating govern- Senator Macdonald for the government and ment have simply refused to carry out their Senator O’Brien for the opposition are not international obligation, which is that once going to answer. The minister was wrong you understand that you have an area of when he said that the RFAs already make World Heritage value you ought to list it. these provisions binding. I pointed to the Australia once led the world in endorsing the RFAs themselves, which explicitly state that World Heritage convention; unfortunately, that is not the case, and then he went silent Australia now comes at the back of the pack on that particular measure. because it breaches the spirit of that conven- Senator Ian Macdonald—It is not World tion time and again. These forests ought to Heritage forest that is being logged. be in a World Heritage area; instead, they are being logged. Senator BROWN—World Heritage value forests are being logged, and the minister can Finally, I want to appeal yet again to the hang his head in shame about that. That is a Labor Party. It is a very serious matter that very good point that the minister, Senator we are dealing with. Senator O’Brien knows Macdonald, brings up by interjection. The that the Forest Practices Code is broken by forests in the Weld, the Picton and the Huon, Forestry Tasmania. I went to Mount Arthur for example, have been described as World on the same day he did. There, a stream that should have a 10-metre buffer from each Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 607 bank has been logged right through, with the I want to use a factual example—and I trees felled into that stream. The erosion into would ask, Minister, that your officers take that stream, which feeds into the Launceston note of this, because I want them to check it. water supply, is prodigious. It is a clear My example goes to the issue of threatened breach of the Forest Practices Code; there- species. The state of Tasmania has threatened fore, it is a clear breach of the regional forest species legislation. Up until late November agreement; therefore, it is a clear breach of or early December last year, the threatened the Prime Minister’s commitment that there species legislation had effect in Tasmania in would be environmental protection. Yet here respect of harvesting operations within RFA we have the means of ensuring that that does regions—and Tasmania is a total RFA re- not happen in future by making the Forest gion. Drawing again on the wonderful ex- Practices Code binding, and Senator pertise of the Forest Practices Board of Tas- O’Brien, who has seen this with his own mania, I draw the attention of the officers eyes, says, ‘I turn my eyes away from this and the minister to page 13 of their current breach of the law as far as the Forest Prac- annual report, which states: tices Code is concerned. I will ignore it, be- (b) Native forests—area (hectares) of operations cause it does not serve the interests of the covered by Forest Practices Plans certified in woodchip corporations in Tasmania for me to 2000/2001 by harvesting method, future land use do the right thing and insist that they stop and tenure breaking the Forest Practices Code and that It then sets out a graph that demonstrates the they be brought to book over it.’ If the state amount of state forest and private land that government will not do it, then the federal has been harvested and regenerated. The to- government ought to. I commend this tal in respect of clear-felling is 17,850 hec- amendment to the chamber. tares. If you analyse that further, what has Senator MURPHY (Tasmania) (9.42 actually happened is that approximately a.m.)—I know that what is proposed here 17,850 hectares have been partially logged was proposed on a previous occasion when or, if you like, selectively logged, leaving we debated this bill. I note that the ALP are 10,000 hectares which have been clear- proposing a different approach in respect of felled—and I would ask the officers, again dealing with parliamentary scrutiny of RFAs. through you, Mr Temporary Chairman, to With regard to RFAs and the legally binding check this, as the minister might want to issue, it is also my view that they ought to be verify that what I am saying is actually true. legally binding. I think I said earlier that the If you then look at the operation of clear- Commonwealth has, in large part, paid a lot felling and say, for instance, that approxi- of money to the states, for various reasons. mately 20 per cent—and we will be fair We went through a long process. With regard here—of the coupes that have been harvested to why these things should be legally bind- by the clear-fell method are left in streamside ing, what I would like to highlight to the reserves and not harvested for some other minister and his officials is that it is primar- reason, that leaves about 8,000 hectares that ily because the states are not upholding their have been clear-felled and burnt. end of the bargain. The Commonwealth, as it Under any legislation in respect of flora says in the Regional Forest Agreements Bill and fauna—threatened species—that is a 2002 and in the regional forest agreements, breach. There is no question about that: that is expected to legislate to maintain its com- is a breach. You cannot comply with the mitments—and the principal commitments Tasmanian Threatened Species Protection relate to the exemption of regions covered by Act 1995 and conduct that sort of harvesting RFAs from certain Commonwealth legisla- practice. What has happened is that, in order tion. That is a very significant step, particu- to allow the Tasmanian government to permit larly if you have the states, who are required the forest companies to comply with this act, to legislate for a whole manner of things, not they have amended it. I say to the govern- in their turn upholding their end of the deal. ment and the minister: that was not the situation when the government negotiated 608 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 the regional forest agreement. What the state that agreement. I am not going to argue has done is to change state legislation to al- about whether Senator Brown’s amendment low it to breach its own legislation, through is the correct form in which to do that, but I the regional forest agreement—because the support the thrust and the principle of doing regional forest agreement actually mentions it. It is important. Otherwise, the Common- the Tasmanian act. That is why at some point wealth is just going to allow the state of the Commonwealth has to stand up and say, Tasmania—or any states or, indeed, territo- ‘When we made this agreement, we had an ries—to legislate away at the state level the expectation that you would honour those obligations to do certain things. You only commitments.’ This is where it comes back have to look at the state’s own, if you like, to ecologically sustainable forest manage- checker, the Forest Practices Board and to ment. The state of Tasmania is legislating to read its annual report to see that the state is avoid that obligation, and that is why the not complying with the thrust of the regional Commonwealth has to take a stand and make forest agreement. some of this legally binding. It is imperative As I said the day before yesterday, I think, that we do that. If we do not, we will con- I had cause to visit some people in the north- tinue to allow the states—Tasmania, Victo- west of Tasmania with regard to a property ria, South Australia or wherever—to legis- that had been purchased by Gunns. A report late away at the state level the obligations had been prepared that the land proposed to that they have given. That is what you will be harvested had been left by the owners two allow them to do, because the regional forest times previous to the present owners, Gunns, agreement, if you read it, Minister, does not for the express purpose of protecting a stipulate any requirement on the state. You threatened species—namely, the freshwater wrote a letter to me, arguing a case for why crayfish. Because of the amendment in No- things are not legally binding. Indeed, you vember or December last year to the state’s raised the issue of constitutionality. All I can Threatened Species Act, Gunns can now say is that I draw to the attention of your of- harvest that property. To me, that is unac- ficers— ceptable. Nobody knows some of these The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN things better than I, because I argued with (Senator Lightfoot)—Do you mean my of- the Labor Party and Labor ministers about a ficers, Senator Murphy? lot of this. I was a member of the Forest and Senator MURPHY—I do apologise, Mr Forest Industry Council in Tasmania, ap- Temporary Chairman: through you, I draw pointed by the state minister, and I can say the attention of the officers of the department that during the course of all those meetings it of the minister to section 51 and subsection was never the intention to end up with the (xxxix) of the Constitution. There are enough situation that we now have; the intention Roman numerals there to sink a ship. I seem through the National Forest Policy Statement to recall that the Commonwealth was not too was to have a regional forest agreement. I backward in coming forward some years ago say again to the minister and to others that in respect of laws that related to human this is the last chance for the Commonwealth rights in terms of gay and lesbian rights. The to do something, and it should do it. I hope Commonwealth seemed to be prepared to that at some point we will put something of use its powers then, and I suggest to the substance into this legislation, to ensure that minister that the Commonwealth has every the states uphold their end of the bargain. right, particularly when it is being dudded by Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- a recalcitrant state government, to put legis- sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- lation in place at the Commonwealth level to tion) (9.57 a.m.)—Senator Murphy raises a ensure that the state upholds its end of the couple of issues. As well as being advised by agreement and the commitments it has given officers from my department, I am advised to the Commonwealth through a regional by officers from Environment Australia that forest agreement—because the Common- the Tasmanian legislation that Senator Mur- wealth and the state are the only parties to phy speaks about was changed in accordance Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 609 with the RFA. That is, it had to have Com- range it either with my office or with Envi- monwealth involvement, and that involve- ronment Australia. That is my advice. ment was with Environment Australia, tak- I make this comment in passing: when ing into account the threatened species leg- natural fires go through areas, certainly islation and the Commonwealth’s obligations threatened species are endangered, and there in relation to that. So it was done in accor- is nothing anyone can do about that. Of dance with the arrangement. Unfortunately, course, there have been wildfires throughout that adviser has just left to check on another Australia for many years. matter, but my understanding of his advice to me is that that was actually done in conjunc- Senator Murphy, you are interested in the tion with Environment Australia. I cannot point—and I guess we all are, although, un- give you the nature of the consultation, but fortunately, we do not always have time to there was consultation with Environment follow these things through as closely as we Australia. would like, and I am no constitutional law expert—but my understanding and advice is Senator Murphy—I would appreciate a that the Commonwealth does not have the briefing on that consultation. power to legislate in relation to forest prac- Senator IAN MACDONALD—I am tices. They are clearly matters for state gov- very happy to do that for you , as I have in- ernments. Perhaps we might, under our in- dicated to you privately and publicly. I am ternational obligations, have some ability to happy to do that for anyone who has a seri- legislate in relation to threatened species, but ous and genuine interest in this, and I am again I am told that this may be in the nature sure you have, Senator Murphy, and I am of the Commonwealth enacting legislation sure the Labor Party has as well. We are that says, ‘If you deliberately endanger an quite happy to do that, because this is not a endangered species then you are liable to political exercise; this is trying to bind the fines and penalties’—so there are conse- Commonwealth to its obligations under the quences. I suspect there is legislation that RFA. That is all we can do constitutionally. says that, although I will have to get advice We think the RFAs are well done, and we on that. It is not germane to this particular have all agreed with them. You agreed with debate today, so I do not want to spend more them, Senator Murphy, in a previous life. time on it. Now you say you did not, but you did. The I am very anxious to get this legislation debate has been going on for more than 15 through. I am anxious to answer any legiti- years, and what this whole arrangement was mate questions that are asked of me here or, about was trying to have the arguments, the in the case where they are not germane to debate, the consultation and the negotiation, this bill, perhaps we could get you that in- to look at the science and make sure it was formation some other time. Like you, Sena- all all right and to embody that in legislation, tor Murphy, I think that, even though our so that everybody would know where we Public Service is world class, sometimes it were going and so that those very substantial slips up, sometimes our advisers slip up and reserves that have been set aside—and they sometimes governments slip up. Where that are better than international requirements happens, if you are interested in the outcome, demand—would be certain and people’s jobs come and talk to us and the officials, put and security and small businesses would be your case and let them put their case. You secure and people could invest to continue may be able to give them information they those jobs in those small townships with do not have; perhaps they can give you in- certainty. That was the whole purpose. The formation you do not have—they do have debate has been had for 15 years. There are fairly wide resources. If you are right and certain people who will never accept the will they are wrong, let us fix it. I am very happy of the people and the principle behind it. It is to do that. a free country, and that is their business. So, if you want a briefing on anything, Senator I am very happy to work with anyone who Murphy, please let me know, and I will ar- has a genuine interest in these sorts of de- bates. I am not terribly interested in working 610 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 with people who get up and publicly say, the subject. If people who are opposed to this ‘World Heritage listed forests have been think they are right, let us put it to the House logged. The government have the power to of Representatives and see what the repre- stop it; why aren’t they stopping it?’ We all sentatives of the people actually say. know that that is a complete and absolute I will try to answer Senator Murphy and misrepresentation of the truth. I am not inter- other senators who have a genuine interest in ested in those sorts of people. They are obvi- this and make genuine inquiries on the leg- ously in the business for reasons that are not islation. Where their inquiries are not on the related to our country or our environment, legislation, I am very happy to arrange, at the ecology and threatened species—they are your convenience and that of the depart- pursuing some other agenda. I am interested ment—although I am sure we can make their in people who are genuinely interested, and convenience mirror yours—to go through there are a lot of those people. I am very these things. happy to work with them. This probably is not the place to do it. Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (10.07 a.m.)—I have two very specific and easy We are in a situation where this bill has questions to ask the minister which are very been through a number of times, and it has important in this matter of whether or not we been through committees. Different people should support a Greens clause to make the have put up amendments and the government regional forest agreements binding. Firstly, is over the years have taken what is appropriate it a fact that none of the East Gippsland RFA out of those amendments. We have included is binding? That includes the no compensa- it in our legislation. We brought it back—this tory provisions. Secondly, is it true that the is the fourth time. We hope that we have East Gippsland five-year review of the RFA covered everything. But we do not want to has been deferred? If so, was the Common- be in a situation where, every time it comes wealth asked? Did the Commonwealth forward, people start thinking of another agree? Where was that made public? When amendment they can put forward and so de- will this five-year review be completed? lay the process. We want to get it through. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN That is why I do not want to enter into (Senator Lightfoot)—Senator Murphy, do long debates, Senator Murphy, at this stage you want to ask the minister some questions about matters that are in the area but not at the same time? really relevant to this legislation. I would like to see this legislation go through. I un- Senator MURPHY (Tasmania) (10.08 derstand that the Labor Party, you and a.m.)—Yes, I do. As somebody who has been Senator Harradine, perhaps with amend- involved in this process since 1978, let me ments, want to get it through. Other legisla- assure you, Minister— tion is going to start building up in the Sen- The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— ate. There is talk that we might sit Saturday Perhaps you could assure the minister and Sunday to get through it. through the chair, Senator Murphy. Senator Murphy—There is plenty of Senator MURPHY—Of course. I assure time in April and May. the minister, through the chair, that, having Senator IAN MACDONALD—Senator argued this to and fro through 13 years of Murphy, you know, as I do, that we all have Labor government, I do not want to prolong other things to do, including you. You are not this either. I can assure you I have other the easiest person to contact, as I have things I would like to do; I have one which I proved. You are out doing other things. You enjoy very much and I would much rather be have a constituency to serve. We do want to doing that than sitting in here arguing the get it through. We want the full time for ade- case about the Regional Forest Agreements quate debate on the legislation, but we do not Bill 2002. want filibustering about things that are I do have a genuine concern about these vaguely related but not germane to the leg- matters, and it worries me when I see evi- islation just so there will never be a vote on dence of circumstances that I fully believe— Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 611 from the intention of this whole program, endangered species might be harmed. But commencing at the National Forest Policy you probably, again, know better than I Statement level—were never intended to that—I think it is under the RFA and under happen. This goes to the question I was ask- the code in Tasmania—there is a very precise ing before about the Threatened Species process: before there is any logging they Protection Act of Tasmania, which you say send in forest practices officers—are you was done in accordance with Environment saying they are corrupt as well?—who must Australia. The Threatened Species Protection assess all of the values of the proposed area Act said that the Forest Practices Plan would for harvesting. If there is a threatened species be sufficient—if there were in place a forest in the area, then prescriptions would be in- practices plan that was required to take ac- corporated into the harvesting plan to protect count of the threatened species in a particular those values. I have seen areas that have area to be harvested—to exempt the har- been clear-felled—not cleared; I know you vesting from the Threatened Species Protec- know the difference, Senator Murphy, but tion Act. It has now been demonstrated in a others here would suggest that clear-felling recent case, known as the Dudley case, means clearing—and there are stands left. which is before the Resource Management You say, ‘What’s that all about?’ and they and Planning Appeal Tribunal, that the For- say, ‘There was something of value there that est Practices Plan did not adequately protect the forest practices officers looked at and two threatened species in the north of the dealt with.’ We try to address the sorts of state. I ask. through you, Mr Temporary issues you are talking about. Chairman, whether the minister would like to I recall—having just checked—that, check this or ask Environment Australia where the forest practices officer assesses what its views are about that. values, they then bring in specialist flora and Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- fauna assessment officers and specialist sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- heritage assessment officers. You are nod- tion) (10.10 a.m.)—Again, Senator Murphy, ding in agreement, Senator Murphy; you that is not particular germane to this debate. I know that. I can only assume that you are will take it on notice. Perhaps if you could saying, ‘Yes, but it does not work.’ give us some more detail— Senator Brown—You’ve got it. Senator O’Brien—Privately. Senator Murphy—You’ve got it in one. Senator IAN MACDONALD—Perhaps Senator IAN MACDONALD—Senator, Senator O’Brien could give us the detail. if you are alleging that people are deliber- Senator O’Brien—Privately, I would ately not doing their job, or they are doing it suggest. wrongly, or they are being threatened and Senator IAN MACDONALD—Pri- overborne, that is a matter for the relevant vately, yes; give us the information privately state authority who has control over this. Of and we will follow that through. Again, if course, you have the ability not only to put there are breaches of either the RFA or the the point in a proper submission but to raise Commonwealth’s obligations, we will pursue public interest in that. Public interest can be them. As I said to you in a letter and pub- a powerful tool when it is reasonably and licly, even though I have no jurisdiction I am responsibly used. It is not much of a tool very happy to join you in approaching the when it is done by rabblerousing people who Tasmanian government if you have evidence go into the forests and criminally destroy and clear facts. If you can say, ‘On this day areas. They send a message, but not that sort or at this time these particular things hap- of message. Where there is a genuine issue, I pened in this particular locality,’ then let’s try am sure you know better than I do how to to follow it through. arrange those things. Senator, you made in your previous If you are alleging malpractice, inability speech a reasonably good point that, if you or just plain lack of skills, perhaps those are clear-fell and burn, the chances are that some things that should be addressed by the rele- 612 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 vant state government. Whilst I have no par- Senator MURPHY—Through you, Mr ticular authority in that, I am happy to lend Temporary Chairman, I am trying to impress whatever assistance I can in getting to the on the minister. bottom of those things. That is not directly The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— germane to the bill that we are debating at Perhaps you would care to do that indirectly the moment, but I am very happy to take through me. those matters on and help if I can, even though it is beyond my constitutional ability. Senator MURPHY—I will endeavour to do that. Through you, Mr Temporary Chair- Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (10.16 man, I would like to impress upon the min- a.m.)—The minister did not answer the very ister that it is relevant to this legislation. clear and specific question I asked him. With regard to the process, what you out- The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN lined is correct. They do have forest prac- (Senator Lightfoot)—Perhaps you would tices officers who go out and do the flora and like to take this opportunity to repeat those fauna assessments. They also have other of- questions when the minister is not seeking ficers who do assessments of the likely har- further information to enhance the debate. vest outcomes, yield outcomes et cetera. Senator BROWN—The questions were: They also employ the services of specialist firstly, is it true that the East Gippsland Re- people—scientists who are specialists in the gional Forest Agreement is not binding in fields of fauna or flora—to write reports, and any way and does not have a compensation they may feel that there are some species that provision to be bound by, anyway? Secondly, may be of significance or may be threatened, is it true that the five-year review of the East et cetera. But what happens? Again I refer to Gippsland RFA, which was due this year, has this great body known as the Forest Practices not taken place and therefore we see another Board, for whom the forest practices officers effective breach of the regional forest agree- work. The problem is that some of those re- ment as publicly proclaimed five years ago? ports are not being adhered to. I ask the minister: was the Commonwealth You say to me, Minister, ‘You should go consulted to allow a delay or even a com- to the state body, to the state authorities, or to plete acquittal from this obligation to have a the state government.’ I say to you, Minis- five-year review? If so, when did those con- ter—through you, Mr Temporary Chair- sultations take place and why wasn’t the man—that I have done that on any number public informed? If not, what action has the of occasions, and I have also approached minister taken to see that that review gets ministers at the Commonwealth level. I have under way? What consultations have taken approached them for, I would think, at least place with the Victorian Bracks government, 20 years, but more particularly I have ap- which has failed to undertake this review as proached them on a stronger basis since the regional forest agreement required? 1989. That is still a very lengthy period of Senator MURPHY (Tasmania) (10.17 time. I have shown information to officers of a.m.)—We should not take longer than we the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and can afford to, but there are some important Forestry and, when they watched the videos matters. Minister, when you raised the issue and saw the photographs, they thought that with me and I indicated that this thing is not there was something wrong. They said, ‘We working, it is in fact not working. I will will go and talk to the minister about this and come to that in a minute, but I would try to come back to you.’ That was last year. impress on you that it is relevant to this leg- Senator Ian Macdonald—When? islation— Senator MURPHY—I cannot remember The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Are the specific date, but I can give you the spe- you trying to impress on me or on the min- cific date if that is what you want. It was ister? well before the last federal election. Senator Ian Macdonald—So it was about mid-year. Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 613

Senator MURPHY—No, it was after logs being in the Hampshire woodchip mill July. I will give you the specific date. If my yard in the north-west of Tasmania. Indeed, I staff are watching this debate, which I hope pleaded with them to come out and inspect they are, they will be looking for that date six kilometres of logs—six kilometres in right now. length—11 metres long and on average over The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—You four metres high in stacked form. They wrote will give that to the minister, will you, back to me and said, ‘No, we’re not coming Senator Murphy? out with you, Senator; we won’t come out and check anything.’ They said that since the Senator MURPHY—That is a diarised inception of the mill there had been two date. There were two officers: the senior of- sawlogs found in the Hampshire woodchip ficer for forestry at that time— mill yard and that they had been recovered Senator Ian Macdonald—Why don’t and sent back to sawmills. I can tell you that you just let me know and I will follow it that was the greatest lie of all time. But through and write to you about it— would that department come out and inspect? Senator MURPHY—That you can, Min- No. ister, but at the end of the day we are debat- I have, likewise, as I said earlier, asked the ing a bill that, sooner or later during the Regional Forest Agreement Monitoring Unit, course of this week, I hope, will pass this which is supposed to monitor this process, to Senate. That is the problem. If you gave at come down to Tasmania—not take my word least some consideration, which you wrote to for it; not cause me to have to get up in this me about, in respect of what I have put up as Senate chamber and, in effect, take a lot of an amendment with regard to monitoring this the time of the Senate debating this matter. I process— have said to them, ‘Get off your backsides The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— and get down here and have a look. Don’t Senator Murphy, it is rather difficult to un- take my word for it; make your own judg- derstand, when you are saying ‘you’, ment.’ But would they do that? No; they said, whether you are referring to the chair or the ‘No, Senator, we can’t do that.’ So I asked minister. I am feeling rather superfluous. You them, ‘What is your role? You are listed in could rectify that malady if you would be this RFA newsletter as the monitor of this kind enough to direct your contribution supposedly great exercise,’ to which they through the chair. replied, ‘We’ll have to ask the minister, Senator MURPHY—I am sorry I am Senator.’ ‘Okay, ask the minister,’ I said. And making you feel somewhat superfluous, Mr what did I get back from the minister? I got a Temporary Chairman Lightfoot, because you letter that said, ‘Don’t harass my staff.’ are not. Senator, if I should so get an expert opinion that there is somehow a breach occurring in The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— the forests of Tasmania in respect of the re- Thank you very much, Senator Murphy, that gional forest agreement, I then might con- is very kind. sider whether or not I will cause an investi- Senator MURPHY—Mr Temporary gation to take place.’ What a joke! Chairman, I am pointing out to the minister Through you, Mr Temporary Chairman, I and I am referring to the minister, and I say to the officers that they know it is a joke. apologise because I should be referring to the It does not work, and this is the place where minister in the third person. Through you, we should be trying to fix it. And I open the Mr Temporary Chairman, I say to the minis- door again: get off your backsides and get ter that I would not mind the minister telling down there and have a look, but do not do it me to do certain things if I had not tried through the process listed in the regional these things. I have tried these things. Al- forest agreement that says that you have to most six years ago I wrote to the Forest give three weeks notice, because if you do Practices Board. This was at a time when we you will get the Cook’s tour—the old sani- had export controls for woodchip export li- tised version of a forestry exercise. That is cences. I wrote about an allegation of saw- 614 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 what you have been getting all of your life. abhorrent. That is doing nothing for the The quicker you come to the realisation that workers in this industry. I will not cop that. that is not what should be happening, the We have a responsibility in public life to better. uphold the interests of the people, and in this We have a public responsibility to ensure place in debating this bill we have a respon- that these forests are managed, for a whole sibility to ensure that we do it not only for range of reasons. My involvement through- the people who work in this industry but for out this debate has been on the principal rea- the future generations of this country. That is son of employment. I am sick and tired of why we must ensure that the Commonwealth seeing thousands of jobs go out of this in- maintain some sort of control over this proc- dustry because of the way it is managed. ess. It is not sufficient for us, for political That is what is happening. I get sick and reasons or for political opportunity, to hand- tired of hearing members of this Senate, in- ball this to states that are demonstrating no cluding ministers, get up here and say that capacity to manage the resources of their this bill is relevant to employment, when that own forests in the best interests of the com- is the greatest load of crap of all time. It is munity. not relevant to employment because it is do- I again say, through you, Mr Temporary ing nothing for employment. That is the Chairman, to the minister: come and have a problem. look; let us defer this bill; let us have your As a former secretary of the Timber eyes opened and the eyes of your officers Workers Union, which subsequently became opened to see exactly what is going on and the CFMEU, I argued for workers’ rights. As then you can come back here and see I said, I participated on the Forests and For- whether you will respond to me in the un- est Industry Council. I arranged blockades, fortunate way that you are responding at the demonstrations and everything else that you moment. I have great sympathy for you, drive to try to get a better outcome for work- Minister, because you have come to a new ers. When I see the forests being trashed and portfolio and it is very difficult one. I do not logs being piled up on the wharves at Burnie want to be disrespectful to you in any way at and Bell Bay to be exported to China or Ko- all, because it is a difficult job, but it is im- rea, I ask myself: what does that do for the portant that you are informed to a greater workers in the timber industry of Tasmania? degree than you currently are about what is It does not do a thing. When I see logs being really happening, not what some people want left in the bush to burn and tens of thousands you to believe is happening. You might say of man ferns being destroyed, I ask myself that I am doing exactly the same, but I am what that does for employment in Tasmania. not. I am asking you to go and have a look It does nothing. for yourself and then make your own judg- When you look at that and you look at the ment, and that is what I will continue to ask state government of the day—I do not care; you to do. Liberal or Labor—you see that it does not Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- matter whether it is Liberal or Labor. They sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- have both been as bad as one another and tion) (10.32 a.m.)—I was asked about the have not been prepared to do anything about five-year reviews in the Victorian forests. I it. When I was a member of the Labor Party, can indicate that the RFAs for East Jim Bacon and Paul Lennon gave a commit- Gippsland and Central Highlands were ment to the union, in front of other union signed in February 1997 and March 1998 officials, that if they were successful in respectively. The Central Highlands RFA coming to the government benches they provides for its first review to be conducted would do something about this problem, but concurrent with the first five-yearly review then they did not do it. They tell me that they of the East Gippsland RFA. On this basis the will not do that because of financial contri- first five-yearly review for the RFAs was due butions from certain companies. I find that for completion in February this year but, recognising difficulties from the 2001-02 Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 615 review of sustainable yield and the associ- be further backwards if this legislation is not ated timber licence renewal process and the passed. While I respect your view, Senator input to be provided by the review of the Murphy, I also respect the view of the Victorian state of the forest reports in June CFMEU, who, as I understand it, want this 2002, both parties have agreed informally to bill through. I understand the view of work- extend the review time line to March 2003, ers in the forests who have approached me the fifth anniversary of the Central High- and said that they want this bill through. I lands RFA. The Commonwealth has made it understand the view of Timber Communities clear, though, that we wish to use this extra Australia, a group that you are familiar with, time to institute a robust review process in- comprising unionists and people who live in corporating the principles of independence, small country towns, and they tell me they consultation and good science. want it through. I am sure the CFMEU In relation to Senator Murphy’s com- would not be wanting this bill through if it ments, I indicate that I have absolute confi- was going to impact on jobs, if it did not at dence in the advice given to me by my ad- least take things forward a step—though visers and my department. They are very perhaps not as far as you want; perhaps there professional, very sincere and very able offi- are other things we can do to assist with jobs. cers, and the advice I am given from them I But I ask you again: by defeating this bill or accept. I have to say, Senator Murphy—I do by delaying it to such an extent that there is not want to be provocative here—that I have never a vote on it, what does that do for raised a number of the issues you have raised jobs? I will tell you what it does: it creates with me and they have said, ‘Yes, we have uncertainty and insecurity in the industry, looked into that and this is the answer, this is there will be absolutely no investment, jobs what happened, this is what was done.’ To will be lost and small communities will shut me, it sounds reasonable, and it is a different down. point of view; it is looking at it a different There are a lot of interesting things that way. you have said, but can I bring you back to You mentioned that you are very con- what this bill is all about. Under the RFAs, cerned about jobs. We all are. One of the which evolved over a 15-year period, the reasons that I am so committed to this bill is Commonwealth made certain commitments that it does give security, and security pro- on what it would do about things for which it vides jobs. Whilst you might, if you trawl has constitutional power, and the bill has through this long enough, pinprick and find embodied what the Commonwealth could holes in the legislation and in the RFA— and would do in regional forest agreements nothing is perfect; I accept that—let me ask which we have signed with four states. This you this question: what does it do for jobs if bill holds the Commonwealth to account, and this bill is not passed? If all the limitations it should not be necessary but it does say that you mentioned are accurate—and I do not the Commonwealth will abide by the obliga- accept they are—then, by defeating this bill, tions it has made. Different governments how does that make provision for better jobs may come in the future and may have differ- in Tasmania? If you want to get the Com- ent views, and things can be changed, but monwealth involved in forest management anyone who has relied on this, who has in- and think there is a way constitutionally to vested money on the strength of these do it, put up another bill about that. agreements, and who then suffers loss by a change in the future would be adequately Senator Murphy—I put up an amend- compensated. Who could argue with that? ment. That is a fair principle of law; it is embodied Senator IAN MACDONALD—No, put in our Constitution in other areas. That is up a bill about that. You are very critical of what this bill is about. It is really giving leg- this legislation and you are arguing against it. islative backing to the agreements that the I again ask you: what will it do for jobs if Commonwealth has made. You are saying this bill is defeated? This bill might not do that perhaps we have not made the right all you want it to do, but certainly you would agreements. I do not agree with that, but you 616 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 might be right. Whatever is there, this bill ber for a long time. It deserves to be widely confirms, cements, makes certain that the read by everybody who has an interest in the Commonwealth will at least abide by its part forest issue in Australia and, indeed, the is- of the RFA; and that is what this bill is about. sue of jobs that the Minister for Forestry and Senator Murphy—Why should it not Conservation just referred to. Whatever else also take account of the states’ role? can be said in here, there is no greater de- fender in this parliament of the jobs compo- Senator IAN MACDONALD—Senator, nent of the forest industry than Senator Mur- there is such a thing as the Australian Con- phy. Senator Murphy and I, in the past, have stitution. There are certain things the federal been at great loggerheads over that. Senator parliament can do, and land management is Murphy has referred to the blockade of the not one of them. Land management, which Wilderness Society on which I sat some includes forest management, is a matter for years ago. It is very important that a member state government. We can have the argu- of the Senate who has such a clear and long ment—and the more I see of this the more working knowledge of what is going on on perhaps I become a centralist and the more the forest floor be listened to and be heeded. one wonders what purpose states serve—but to even imagine that you are going to get a I noted that during his speech Senator change in the Constitution to do away with Murphy again said to the minister, ‘Come the states is fantasy land stuff, even though down and have a look; in fact, suspend this many of us at times might think that that is a bill while you come and have a look.’ The good idea. The states are there; they have minister’s response was, ‘No, I will take the constitutional powers. The federal govern- word of my advisers.’ Let me say to the ment is there; it does have some constitu- minister that that is a huge political mistake. tional powers, but it specifically does not Where a minister says, ‘I myself will not have others. We can only legislate for what make it my business to know what is going we can do; that is what this bill is about. It is on in this industry; I will leave it to advice very important to the industry to give that and I will turn down a request from such a security and to give that understanding so knowledgeable Independent as Senator Mur- that the forest industry can go ahead, so that phy to come and see what is going on,’ that jobs can be created and so that people and minister is saying in effect, ‘I close my eyes their families, those who rely on them, do to all the evidence that is coming forward. I have a future. will not look at it with an even hand; I will not be judicious in this.’ Sure, some of what you say might be right. But by not passing this bill we are not That is the trajectory of a minister and a going to increase the security of workers in ministry who will get into trouble because, the forest industry. So I urge you that if you as Senator Murphy averred—and I can cor- have other issues, if you want to put forward roborate this—time and again those people other bills, if you want to ask questions, if who are meant to implement the Forest you want me to do things, let us pursue all of Practices Code and good management prac- that at the appropriate time, but let us get this tices in Tasmania are prevented from doing bill through so at least the security that is their job, are overruled, are threatened or are there through legislatively backing the sacked. Those people who are involved in agreements made by a Commonwealth gov- the watchdog system are meant to ensure that ernment in the RFAs is passed and then we the Forest Practices Code is properly imple- can move on and continue considering the mented but they do not do so. They have a areas that you want to. biased influence on the outcome. This leads to a travesty of the system. For example, the Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (10.40 Forest Practices Board in Tasmania is sup- a.m.)—I want to commend Senator Murphy posed to investigate complaints without fear for the speech he gave a while ago. It was or favour and independently ensure that the one of the finest and most compelling Forest Practices Code is implemented, but speeches on this issue, or on a range of is- that does happen. Senator O’Brien knows sues, that there has been in the Senate cham- Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 617 that does not happen, Senator Murphy knows There is massive mismanagement of the for- that does not happen and I know that does ests in Tasmania, and the minister says, ‘I not happen. won’t go and look at it; I’ll depend on my Indeed, looking into Senator Murphy’s adviser system’—which has led to this mis- speech, there are very grave allegations of management. corrupt influence at the highest levels in the This is a very important moment for the Tasmanian government, and they simply chamber. We are supposed to be the watch- cannot be dismissed in a debate like this. I dog of government behaviour, of the delivery have foreshadowed the bringing of a bill into of the executive of government, but particu- this place calling for an inquiry into the larly we are a watchdog of the Australian whole rotten edifice in Tasmania which fails resource base, in the interests of the people. to deliver the Forest Practices Code, ecologi- In this chamber, Senator Murphy, Senator cally sustainable management and the aspi- O’Brien and I represent Tasmania—we rep- rations of the people of that state that their resent the interests of our state as well—and forests should be managed in their long-term here we have legislation whereby the Com- interests—and that does not happen. What monwealth is ceding its powers back to the the minister is doing is, before the chamber, states to protect forests and ensure that they determinedly saying, ‘I will not accept an are managed properly. I have an amendment invitation to go and see what is alleged’— before the committee that says, ‘Let’s make very serious allegations—‘about the mis- the agreement at least binding on the states management of this huge industry that is as well as the Commonwealth.’ The minister based on a public resource.’ Senator Murphy says we cannot do that: we can give our refers to whole logs sitting on the wharves at powers away but we cannot insist that the Burnie and elsewhere in Tasmania that are state implement its side of the agreement. destined to go to China and Japan. Why is I would point to just one of a huge litany that? of breaches of the forest agreement signed by Senator O’Brien—Korea. the Prime Minister—a simple thing like a Senator BROWN—China and Korea. five-year review of East Gippsland. Without Senator O’Brien, I thank you for that correc- any public announcement, without any refer- tion. The question is: why is that? How can it ence to the owners of those forests or the be that, in a state where some sawmillers people of Victoria, we now find in the Senate cannot get supplies and many have gone out chamber the minister saying, ‘Oh well, there of business, we are told that it is essential to was a behind-door covert agreement between keep cutting into contentious wild forest, the governments that we put that off.’ It was some of World Heritage value, and that there a very simple tenet, loudly proclaimed at the are whole logs—these are native forest signing of the original forest agreement for logs—on the wharves waiting to be exported East Gippsland, that there would be a for downstream processing to other coun- five-year review. That has been changed. It is tries. now not going to be for six years. The min- ister just says, ‘Well, I am part of that breach Logic says that there is something wrong of public faith in the regional forest agree- here—something very wrong indeed. How ment,’ and the public has not been told about can it be that people routinely go into the it. forest coupes, after they have been logged and left by the woodchippers, and take out The minister refers to the inability of the truckloads of sally, sassafras and myrtle— Commonwealth to be able to have the states high-value timbers—for backyard wood- bound in this matter. He is totally wrong, and turning, for furnishing and so on? The people constitutional advice will show that he is who do that are acting illegally: it is illegal to wrong. Indeed, he will not be furnishing ad- go in and clean up after the loggers without a vice in here—and I ask him to furnish advice licence from Forestry Tasmania. But what if he has it—which says that the Common- happens is that Forestry Tasmania comes wealth, in a position where it is ceding pow- along and firebombs that same resource. ers, does not have the ability to get a recipro- 618 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 cation from the states and have it legislated. I now, Gunns is shedding more jobs. It is what therefore ask the minister, if he can, to give you call rationalising. Its objective is profit; constitutional authority to this amendment it is not jobs. The concept that this regional binding the states as well as the Common- forest agreement is for job creation is a total wealth to the regional forest agreements— deception. The way that concept is being poor as they might be—so that they are im- used and the way it was just used by the plemented. I am not going to get an answer, minister is very dishonourable in purporting and the Senate chamber is not going to get an to create jobs when the record is that jobs are answer. being lost and will continue to be lost. It is We should and we must support this known politically that it is a very strong amendment. When the Commonwealth cedes driver. The CFMEU, in my book, falls into its power to the states to ensure that there is this all the time—‘This will create jobs.’ The good management of Australia’s forests, we record shows that it sheds jobs, that massive should and must expect the states to be amounts of money go into the big corpora- obliged to carry through, particularly when tions, which get bigger, and small ones lose we have such a powerful exposition as the out further down the line. Forests are not one we have just heard from Senator Murphy being managed for the small operator; they that since the signing of the regional forest are being managed for the big operator. agreement the state with the biggest industry, In Tasmania, 90 per cent plus of the for- Tasmania, has manifestly been breaching the ests are going to woodchippers, and in regional forest agreement, not just at the amongst those are millions of tonnes of level of surveillance by Forest Practices sawlog value logs which should be being Code officers but right through to the leaders kept for generations of sawlogging to come, of the state government, the Premier and the but they are not. They are being wood- Deputy Premier. What could be a more seri- chipped and sent to Japan to make a quick ous indictment of failure of process at a time profit for Gunns, its shareholders outside when we have amendments here that can fix Tasmania and the five or six board members it? of Gunns who recently voted themselves a When the minister says, ‘Well, we’ll leave pay increase from $200,000 to $500,000 per it to see how it goes,’ that is not acceptable. annum. It is a sheer windfall for them. Their It is not working. The minister resorts to the jobs are secure, but they do not care at all old shibboleth, ‘We have to get this legisla- about the jobs of the people who work in this tion through for jobs.’ At the outset of this industry. I will be testing this shortly with an debate, Mr Temporary Chairman, you will amendment. In the meantime, this amend- recall that I asked the minister to present the ment, which requires the states as well as the figures showing that 550 jobs would be cre- Commonwealth to be bound by regional for- ated in the native forest logging industry in est agreements, is compelling, is important, Tasmania. Prime Minister Howard promised is good practice and ought to be supported. on that day in 1997, when he signed the re- Senator MURPHY (Tasmania) (10.55 gional forest agreement with the then state a.m.)—I do not intend to make any other Premier of Tasmania, that these jobs would contribution to this debate other than to be created. speak to my own amendments—primarily I said to the minister, ‘Where are those because I think it is just a big waste of time. jobs?’ because at least 450 jobs have in effect Minister, in respect of the questions you been shed from that industry. So the industry asked me, I raised this matter with Michael got $80 million plus of taxpayers’ money. In O’Loughlin, head of the RFA Monitoring the woodchip industry particularly, the big- Unit, in either late September or early Octo- ger the corporation the more it gets in flow- ber 2000. I subsequently wrote to Mr ons and Gunns is the biggest hardwood O’Loughlin on 19 October 2000 as a result woodchipper in the world. Where are the of not hearing back from him after the phone jobs it has created vis-a-vis the absorption of call I made. I then received a letter from the North and Boral in the last two years? Right minister on 2 November 2000. I wrote back Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 619 to the minister on 7 November 2000 and said, ‘I was asked to come in here to clear made the same offers that I have made to you out some of the residue so that they could with respect to visiting the forests as I made windrow this and burn it. The windrow con- to Michael O’Loughlin of the RFA Monitor- tractor wanted almost three times the normal ing Unit and I have never received a re- rate because there were so many logs left on sponse to that letter. Moreover, on 10 August the forest floor.’ Forestry Tasmania can ver- last year I had a lengthy meeting with Rob ify this because I have had them out there. Rawson and another officer from AFFA, The contractor said, ‘I’m there cutting this during which I showed them video material wood, myrtle logs. I’ve taken 32 ten-yard tip and still photographic evidence of what I truck loads of sawlogs out of this coupe. I believed were breaches, but as I have said have asked Forestry Tasmania for a sawlog consistently, ‘Don’t take my word for it, permit. They won’t give me one. I am now don’t believe what you see on the video; afraid that I could be prosecuted’—which he come down and have a look.’ I do not wish could have been—‘for illegally taking saw- to misrepresent their view, but I got the im- logs out of a state forest coupe.’ He was pression that they were pretty horrified by seeking my assistance to address that prob- what they saw. They said they would talk to lem. the minister and come back to me and I have I went to Forestry Tasmania and I got the not heard anything from that day. So I hope District Forester, Paul Smith, and his second- you can understand that I am not too confi- in-command, Islay Robertson—this can all dent about how things work. be checked—and I asked them to come out As I said previously, I have written to to the coupe to do an inspection, and that we state authorities, the Forest Practices Board did. There were significantly more sawlogs and the minister. Indeed, in two coupes recovered from those coupes—a significant which were harvested in the north-west in number. What happened was that, before the Mawbanna State Forest, Dip 21(c) and I windrowing was to proceed, I wrote to the think 21(a)—I cannot remember off the top minister and asked the minister if we could of my head—which were mixed forest, pri- send in an on ground sawmilling operation at marily myrtle, there was a significant residue no cost to the government and at no cost to of logs. I received a call from a contractor, a Forestry Tasmania. The response was no. So person working in the industry. Shayne Mur- they windrowed the two coupes and they phy does not have time to wander around burnt them. We then conducted an inspection every single forest looking for things to pick after the coupes had been burnt and it was holes in, to try to find arguments. I have the view of some sawmilling people that better things to do with my time. If I have there was still a significant amount of saw- any spare time, I like to go fishing. I assure mill material that could be recovered. So I you that I do not want to spend any more wrote to the minister again and I asked time wandering around the forests than I whether we could now proceed, at no cost to have to. So I got a call from a contractor, the government and at no cost to Forestry whom I did not know from a bar of soap, and Tasmania, to put an on ground sawmilling he said to me, ‘You need to come and have a operation in those coupes and endeavour to look at this. I am concerned by the circum- recover what we considered to be a signifi- stances I am confronted with.’ So I went cant amount of high-quality valuable re- down to have a look. I said, ‘What are you source. The response was no. I cannot accept doing here, because I was here when this the minister’s criticism that I have not en- coupe was harvested?’ In fact, I still have the deavoured to pursue these matters through video of the harvesting of the coupe, which the proper processes—which they really has never been shown, and I have a voice- should be; that should be the process that over of a contractor who did the harvesting, works. We should be able to go to the rele- which I will never produce because the vant authorities and/or state government to views he expressed to me at that time would get these matters rectified. Clearly, that jeopardise his employment. Coming back to ought to be the case. the contractor who was in this coupe, he 620 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

I had been in the same area of the Maw- There is a whole range of things. I particu- banna Forest two years before. I raised the larly want to refer to placitum (xxxix) which same problem with Forestry Tasmania. I states: videoed material to show to Forestry Tasma- Matters incidental to the execution of any nia the number of myrtle sawlogs that were power vested by this Constitution in the Parlia- being left behind. Myrtle is a very valuable ment or in either House thereof, or in the Gov- timber. After I had shown them that video I ernment of the Commonwealth, or in the Federal asked them, ‘Why have you not recovered Judicature, or in any department or officer of the these logs?’ I cut one log with my own Commonwealth. chainsaw. I went to Forestry Tasmania and It is my view that that does provide the asked, ‘Can I get the log?’ It was less than 30 Commonwealth with the right. metres from the road. It was over seven me- Senator Ian Macdonald—Unfortunately tres long and one metre in diameter. I offered your view is not shared by the High Court. to pay for it. They said no. There was a range of timber lying about the place that anybody Senator MURPHY—Is that right. I would have been pleased to have at a saw- would like you to produce some evidence mill where it could be milled. I certainly that what I am suggesting by way of would have been pleased with it. The amount amendment is not right. If you can do that of timber I could have recovered was amaz- then I may be convinced of that at the time. ing. I would not have wanted to sell it be- Senator Ian Macdonald—I’ll write to cause it was beautiful timber to use in a you about that. house, furniture et cetera. It was proposed Senator MURPHY—I have received a that that be burnt. lot of letters, as I said. In regard to the people I went back 12 months later and the only I have spoken to, I hope you will understand reason it had not been burnt was that it got why I have a sense of frustration—having too wet and Forestry Tasmania could not identified problems, or having endeavoured light a fire, which is unusual for them be- to identify problems, and having been con- cause they are pretty good at it. They could fronted by a significant failing in the system not get it to burn so they did not burn it. at both the state and Commonwealth level. When I went back 12 months later and the That is why I want to continue to pursue this log was still there I thought I would try it issue and make sure that the Commonwealth again. I asked, ‘Can I get that log?’ I was told has a capacity to at least ensure that some no. integrity in this whole system is maintained. Minister, I do not accept your criticism It is of vital importance. that I have not endeavoured to pursue these Finally, with respect to jobs, it is critical in matters through the correct processes, be- some aspects to get this legislation cause I have. The only reason I stand in this through—there is no question about that. As place and argue the case for the Common- I said before, Labor governments in the past wealth to maintain some control and right is used the forest industry as a political foot- because of the failings of the system at the ball. Former Senator Graham Richardson, in state level. I would not be bothered other- the process of seeking to extract what was wise. We have the constitutional right to do perceived as a two per cent green vote, used this, and we have used that right on any the forest industry. I was very dark about that number of occasions previously. I again refer and I have voiced my opinion about that to to part 5 of the Constitution, ‘Powers of the any number of former and current Labor Parliament’, and section 51, which states: members of parliament. No-one wanted to The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitu- see this matter progressed more than I—that tion, have the power to make laws for the peace, is, taking away the right of the government order, and good government of the Common- of the day, for political win purposes, to use wealth with respect to: ... the forest industry as a political football. I clearly support this process for those reasons. But I also want to ensure that integ- Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 621 rity in the process is maintained, that—this community that it can provide a long-term word we keep hearing about—security for and sustainable future for the forest industry, the industry will deliver some investment et including substantial downstream processing cetera. I can tell you that I have heard so of its product in this country, and that its per- many announcements about investments, so formance over the lives of those regional many announcements about a feasibility forest agreements will have a significant study into a feasibility study to see if we are bearing on whether agreements are re- going to have a this or a that. I took the op- newed—and, if they are renewed, in what portunity to ring the state government again form they are renewed. I do not pretend to the other day and they rang me back yester- know which particular logs were sitting on day. I asked them about their Industry De- which particular wharf at a particular period velopment Plan 2001. In relation to the sec- of time—that is impossible. I am sure Sena- tion on forestry, timber and paper it says: tor Murphy would appreciate that, but what I South African company, Kortas Veneer and Ply- am saying is that there are reasons why wood, has undertaken a study into the feasibility whole logs might be exported, particularly as of a 120,000 cubic metre veneer mill in Tasmania. part of that process. I thought I should find out how well that was I also understand there is a process in train going so I rang the Treasury—there is a where a laminated interlocking flooring sys- phone number in the document—and they tem, which is a commonly used floor cover- could not tell me. (Time expired) ing around the country, is being trialled using Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (11.10 Tasmanian hardwood as the top veneer of a.m.)—I have a couple of points I should put that particular product. That process is on the record which may assist the debate. probably unlikely to find its way as a manu- The first point relates to whole native hard- facturing process into Tasmania because of wood logs being exported from Tasmania. I the economies of scale involved, at least at do not know which particular logs Senator this stage. It would be my hope that the Murphy was referring to. I do know that a matter continues to be investigated and if trial project is currently running whereby there are opportunities for that sort of down- hardwood logs are exported to Korea and stream processing it should find its way into also to Finland for the rotary veneer peeling the state. process. If the project is developed—and I But I reiterate that we see the process of understand that all indications at the moment establishment and development of down- are positive—the intention is to establish stream processing opportunities as integral to rotary peel veneer factories in the state of this cycle of regional forests agreements and Tasmania to manufacture construction grade therefore I agree with Senator Murphy that ply, which will be export as well as import there are aspects of this legislation that are replacement. That is the advice that I have, crucial to the process of establishing those but that may not involve the logs in question. opportunities. The industry tells us—and I So there are valid reasons why hardwood am sure that they have told Senator Murphy logs would be exported. It may be that there and the government—they need to be able to are other areas where logs are also being ex- assure the people who will finance those de- ported. velopments that they are not going to find a As far as the federal opposition is con- couple of years down the track that the re- cerned, the intent behind the opposition’s sources have been so manipulated that they philosophy on resource security for this in- do not actually have the wherewithal to con- dustry is to confirm a long-term future within duct a viable business in the industry. So this country for downstream processing of security of the resource and the security that the products of the forest. I have spoken to a the Commonwealth will not capriciously number of people from the forest industry breach agreements it has already entered into and it is our view that this cycle of regional require the passage of this legislation. forest agreements provides the opportunity Let me say in relation to the matters Sen- for the industry to prove to the Australian ate Murphy raised, with regard to what he 622 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 says are particular problems in particular teeth into this legislation in terms of ensuring localities with the administration of the Tas- so-called ecologically sustainable manage- manian Regional Forest Agreement, that an ment and would ensure the reserve system, amendment—I will come to that later—in Labor will not allow. The Labor Party will our view will deal with the provision to this block that. parliament of the opportunity to review those That brings me back to the very learned matters. If they are proven in the context of, letter from Mr John Haywood in Tasmania to for example, public hearings before a joint Senator O’Brien, the shadow minister for parliamentary committee, there would be, I Labor on forestry, earlier this month, which think, compelling pressure on any state gov- has gone unanswered. I read the first part of ernment to correct deficiencies in the opera- that letter last night. tion of its regional forest agreement. I sus- pect there would also be compelling pressure Senator O’Brien—In the last few days on the Commonwealth, where it had the op- you mean. portunity to do so, to require compliance Senator BROWN—Thank you, Senator with provisions of regional forest agreements O’Brien. I will continue the letter from Mr in accordance with the necessary review Haywood. It says: clauses in particular agreements. We believe A … wasteful 94% of all logs felled were chipped our amendments provide the wherewithal to … [and] While this may see a wanton stupidity, do that. That view may not be shared by the minimal labour, time, and processing required other senators but that is the view of the op- for woodchipping, combined with enormous vol- position. I look forward to the debate on that umes of trees obtained for virtually nothing, particular provision at the appropriate time means that it is extremely profitable for the well- connected few. Newly emerged market dominator and, hopefully, in the not-too-distant future Gunns Ltd recently announced a 191% increase and in the context of the conduct of this de- in profits along with a profit target double that bate. again. The fault lies with the public officials who Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.17 are sanctioning the give away of public resources a.m.)—Senator O’Brien has just said that and attendant environmental destruction. Despite effectively where there is broad-scale the already mind-boggling inefficiency, Forestry breaching of the regional forest agreements Tasmania (FT), the caretaker of public forests, has offered loggers an additional 2.5 million tonnes of in the application of the Forest Practices publicly owned wood p.a if they can find a buyer. Code, as in Tasmania—which we have had so cogently outlined by Senator Murphy— This level of exploitation is made possible by extraordinary administrative arrangements in we will leave it to some future inquiry by a which the woodchip industry has been given vir- Commonwealth and/or state committee. If tually total self-regulation, with immunity from these breaches are found to be actually oc- planning and environmental legislation. Industry curring, and we know they are—who here is representatives control the Forest Practices Board, going to say that Senator Murphy is wrong in the industry regulator, which approves almost what he says—then we will get them fixed 99% of logging plan applications, as well as the up after that because the states would have to Forest Practices Tribunal, which upholds the fix them, wouldn’t they, even though we Board’s decisions against public objections by a know that they have a whole edifice of po- similar percentage. licing of forest practices, which is failing The industry, including its GBO agencies, cam- totally. paigns vigorously and often deviously against a wide range of planning and conservation propos- Senator Murphy, on behalf of the Crean als, while actively promoting its sympathisers for Labor opposition, which is totally in support strategic positions at both levels of government. It of the Howard coalition on the matter of get- also exercises a blatant power to dictate the pas- ting this legislation through, says he will not sage of legislative amendments to eliminate the support the Greens amendment which would most minor constraints— make the regional forest agreement binding a process which we are seeing enhanced here on the states as well as the Commonwealth. today, I might add. Back to Mr Haywood’s So the one mechanism that might put some letter: Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 623

In 1998, ater a Supreme Court decision upheld a I want to continue with this letter, but I will council’s power to refuse approval for harvesting comment on those figures later. They are in a rural residential zone, the Bacon government— fact worse than Mr Haywood presents, in in Tasmania— terms of Forestry Tasmania, which is regu- passed amendments to enable a landowner to larly running at a loss. His letter continues: bypass council by direct application to the Forest FT has never paid a dividend sufficient to pay the Practices Board for Private Timber Reserve interest on the $272 million in forestry debt trans- (PTR) status. The PTR is itself an extraordinary ferred to the public account in 1990. legal device, is an easement to the industry which That was by then Labor Premier Michael expressly removes the subject land from all plan- ning and environmental legislation. Field. The letter says: So a private forest is removed from all plan- This was reduced by $40 m a few years ago through the sale of pine plantations to a US con- ning and environmental legislation under glomerate for a fraction of the normal value. In state law. Back to the letter: 2000-2001 the dividend fell to about 40% of the It also makes the easement irrevocable if any dividend from 1997, when the harvest tonnage money is owed by the landowner to the plantation was less than half as large. FT has in September manager and contains a dormant provision which 2001 admitted having generated further liabilities could make PTRs irrevocable if the minister sim- of $112 million. Some $500 million in public ply declares that they have been recognised by funds have been poured into Forestry Tasmania another act, as all of them are. since 1988. The royalty rates for export wood- Mr Haywood said in this letter to the Labor chips, which FT refuses to divulge in detail, are Party shadow minister for forests just a little very low by national standards, reportedly often in the $4-7 per tonne range, which encourages more than a week ago: both waste and clear-felling. The biggest private In November 2001, the Tasmanian parliament operator is believed to enjoy after-tax profits of a voted to exempt forestry from a key provision of staggering 45-50% on investment, based on 30% the Threatened Species Protection Act 1995 a few returns for a much smaller and more heavily months after forestry suffered its first and only taxed Harris-Daishawa operation in NSW whose loss in the Resource Management and Planning accounts are more accessible. Appeals Tribunal over a threatened species issue. Tasmania’s subsidised use of 1080 poisoning There have also been major misuses of public against native wildlife is routine, massive, and funding, with some $67 million in federal conser- indiscriminate; the 109,500 kgs. of poisoned car- vation funding being diverted to the replacement rots prepared last year were sufficient for a bait of native forest with plantations. line 7,000 km long, enough to kill 13 million Forestry Tasmania, which has been given control rufous wallabies. The use of the poison has been of some 1.6 million hectares of public forest (out described by some RSPCA officials as being in of Tasmania’s total area of 6.8m hectares), oper- breach of the state’s anti-cruelty legislation. ates openly as a service provider for the woodchip I depart from the letter. This is a massive industry. poisoning of native fauna in Tasmania by the Mr Haywood says that in 1999-2000, despite logging industry once it has destroyed their a 48 per cent increase in logging volume, forests, and that mass killing of Australian Forestry Tasmania: wildlife will be implemented and enhanced … reduced its annual public dividend to a ludi- by the passage of this legislation, supported crous $2.8 m, down from $11.2m paid the previ- by the Labor Party, which comes from the ous year (for which they needed to borrow). Last government. Back to the letter: year, with a 20% increase in the native forest har- vest, the dividend fell 34% to $5.75 m. The $2.8 The use of the poison has been described by some m was later declared to have been increased to RSPCA officials as being in breach of the state’s $8.68 m, but the following year’s annual report anti-cruelty legislation. Studies have indicated indicates the amount paid was the smaller fig- that sublethal doses of 1080 cause residual dam- ure— age to the reproductive systems, brains and kid- neys of relatively resistant and often endangered that is, $2.8 million. It continues: species, such as Spotted-tail Quolls, White Gos- Most of the very modest royalties received are hawks, and Wedgetail Eagles, a fact studiously recycled back to the private operator in the form ignored by the forestry industry and its subordi- of logging roads and other infrastructure. 624 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 nates in the Tasmanian Department of Primary managers who establish them, effectively acquir- Industries in all their publications. ing the land beneath rent-free. (It should be noted The task of assessing the conservation values of that Victoria, recently the subject of the scathing prospective logging coupes, and of monitoring Vanclay report on excessive logging, does not their biodiversity, has been assigned to employees permit the replacement of native forest with of the logging companies or Forestry Tasmania. plantations). They also have the task of deciding if it is neces- The plantations which are supplanting both sary to test waterways for residues of their heavy native forests and farmland are a high-volume, application of herbicides, including those of the low-value, low-employment industry which is carcinogenic atrazine group. The salient quality having an increasingly destructive effect on Tas- of Tasmanian logging is its crude expedience, mania’s far more important tourist and agricul- most prominently expressed in the cable logging tural industries. Some 10% of Tasmanian farms and clear-felling of steep slopes, banned in many have already been swallowed up by plantation developed countries. managers in an artificial boom created by the Until recently, the chair of the Threatened Species lavish tax concessions currently being attacked by Scientific Advisory Committee was an employee the ATO. Because plantation managers routinely of Forestry Tasmania, who busily and success- destroy or remove farm infrastructure so as to fully applied himself to the de-listing of a threat- minimise the property’s value for rating purposes, ened snail which inconveniently inhabited forest council revenue in forestry areas is being severely areas. reduced (forestry on public land is, unlike the case in Victoria, completely exempt from council I add here that they wanted to log those for- rates). Plantations are also exempt from land tax. est areas and some of them have since been The proximity of plantations has also been logged. Back to the letter: found to reduce the market value of neighbouring It is no surprise that Tasmanian forestry is not properties by a third or more, a fact that both the approved as sustainable by the Forest Steward- industry and the state government strenuously ship Council (FSC), the most influential interna- refuse to acknowledge. tional certification body, nor that a Forestry Tas- This is a compelling letter from a constituent mania manager heads the puppet certification body, Australian Forestry Standard, being set up to the Labor Party. It can be assumed that it to circumvent this fact. will fall on deaf ears on the part of the gov- ernment, but how the Labor Party could line The smash-and-grab methods of the wood- itself up with the Howard government in this chip industry mean that Tasmania’s poten- matter is beyond belief when it comes to the tially very valuable sawn timber is excluded economic, employment and environmental from mainstream world markets which ob- aspects that are involved. It is such an im- serve Forestry Stewardship Council, FSC, portant letter that I will present the rest of it certification. Mr Hayward, in his letter to to the Senate in a moment. (Time expired) Labor’s shadow forestry minister, Senator O’Brien, which has not been answered, went Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.32 on to say: a.m.)—I will now continue with the letter from Mr Hayward to Senator O’Brien and As if chipping was not wasteful enough, the state government is pushing for three wood-fired the Crean opposition, appealing to them not power generators which would consume close to to support this legislation but to intervene another million tonnes. It is unlikely that this and ensure that good forest practices are in- would come from the 10+ million tonnes annually stituted in Tasmania, where good forest burnt in smoke-belching and health-threatening practices, at the moment, are not the norm. pyres on the forest floor. It is expected that these Mr Hayward goes on to say: generators will be seen as a profitable way to Plantations employ only about 15% as many peo- dispose of clearfelled native forest timber, which ple as would farms on the same acreage, a ratio is increasingly spurned by Japanese paper mills in which is worsening along with total forestry em- favour of specialised pulpwood. The rationale for ployment as the industry becomes more mecha- clearfelling is that, where pulpwood or pine nised and the percentage of the harvest chipped plantations are planted on the sites of cleared continues to increase. Since woodchip export public forests, which was the case in 57% of quotas were abolished in November 1997 by the coupes logged in 2000-2001, those plantations Tasmanian Regional Forest Agreement, with a became the property of the private plantation resulting huge increase in the volume harvested, Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 625 employment in forestry has fallen from 6558 to submissions were received from all sectors in that 3440, or 47%, with only about 700 people now process, the RFA’s final form was determined by reported to be employed in the main activity of logging industry wishes. The most disastrous native forest logging. Wages and conditions in the feature of the Tasmanian RFA was the abolition industry have also fallen sharply with the con- of woodchip export quotas, which has led to the centration of corporate control. runaway increase in native forest logging and I depart from the letter for a moment to ask environmental damage. the minister to respond to this committee on What provisions for conservation and other those job figures. He has said this is about competing interests that remain are rendered jobs. The Prime Minister said the regional largely illusory by the fact that the RFA is ad- forest agreement was going to create 550 ministered by Forestry Tasmania and the Forest Practices Board. The travesty of that administra- jobs in Tasmania. What Mr Hayward is say- tion was most recently illustrated by FT’s aboli- ing is that, in fact, hundreds of jobs have tion of 1000 ha of the 1800 ha of rain forest re- been shed since the regional forest agree- serve on Mt Arthur in NE Tasmania, despite it ment was signed, even though the volume of being the habitat of a listed threatened species forest being destroyed has dramatically in- found nowhere else on earth, the Mt Arthur bur- creased. That is a challenge to the minister. I rowing crayfish, and despite the fact that the area ask him to answer these questions in the is unsuitable for plantations. The area was clear- chamber: where are the jobs that would be felled. produced? Where are the jobs that have It is notable that this letter is addressed to come from the massive investment of tax- Senator O’Brien. Senator O’Brien has been payers’ money and the so-called security to see the Mount Arthur disaster and the which the regional forest agreement the breaches of the Forest Practices Code there Prime Minister signed in 1997 promised but, consistent with the Tasmanian Labor would be brought about? Party and those sections of the forest indus- Mr Hayward goes on in this very compel- try which are totally malfunctioning in Tas- ling letter to say: mania, refuses to give an account of those breaches of the Forest Practices Code in this A number of economic studies, such as that released recently by economists Marsden Jacobs house and defends the process which allows Associates, and earlier ones by KPMG and the those breaches to continue. Victorian Auditor-General, have concluded that The letter goes on to say that Forestry Australian native forest logging, when properly Tasmania’s: costed, is economically indefensible from the ... professed reason for removing reserve protec- public perspective. Amazingly, no cost/benefit analysis has ever been conducted on Tasmanian tion, that similar rainforest existed elsewhere, ignored the fact that it had been reserved for local forestry, by orders of magnitude the most inten- significance. Despite the documentation of 64 sive and wasteful in the country, but inferences may be made from the fact that over $231 mil- breaches of the Forest Practices Board by local lion, a quarter of the state’s debt, has been gener- residents— ated by forestry. No Tasmanian minister or for- at Mount Arthur, that is, north of Launces- estry official has ever responded to the substance ton— of these reports. the Forest Practices Board refused to take any A standard response of the logging industry action against the logging firms or to give local and the Tasmanian government to the facts and citizens the required leave to undertake legal ac- arguments cited above is to ignore them— tions themselves. something which Senator O’Brien, as We have a process here which is binding shadow forestry minister for the Crean oppo- everybody’s hands except the loggers’. This sition, has done so far, but I challenge him legislation continues and enhances the proc- now to answer them— ess at the highest level—that is, through and continue repeating baseless platitudes about Commonwealth legislation—where Mr “jobs”, “sustainable development” or “world- Crean and Mr Howard together support a class industry”. Another is to cite the Tasmanian process of depriving citizens of their rights to Regional Forest Agreement (RFA) process as defend their localities, their environments proof of the wisdom of what has followed. While 626 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 and their jobs from a marauding forest in- which allows it to happen. What a demand dustry. Mr Hayward goes on to say: this is in this letter for Senator O’Brien to It is difficult to see more than one plausible ex- respond. He shakes his head at the minister planation for the brazen looting of Tasmanian opposite. The nature of politics is that those forests, and that is the same as applies to Indone- who have the power can buck their authority sia and other Third World competitors—a corrupt to do the right thing by the populace, which political establishment. does not have that power. The minister ought With virtually free access to a vast public re- to know that one of the travesties behind this source, logging has considerable resources to whole process is the system of largesse from invest in cultivating the major political parties the big industries to the big parties. This and sympathetic candidates. They have been means that, in the wash-up, while 70 or 80 spectacularly successful. A reported seven mem- per cent—and, in some cases, opinion polls bers of the Bacon government are or have been as high as 89 per cent in Western Australia— members of a logging industry front group known as the Forest Protection Society until recently, show public opposition to the logging of when it renamed itself Timber Communities these forests, the tragic reality is that 90 per Australia. This is of a type known as an “astro- cent plus of politicians, the big parties in- turf” organisation, an artificial grass-roots group cluded, support the destruction of the forests developed in the US by industries such as tobacco and will do so under this process here today. and forestry to lobby and agitate on a remote The amendment is before the chamber to control basis. A few years ago Forestry Tasmania say, ‘There is a process here which many of announced a “Community Forest Agreement” had been signed under which FT would consult with us oppose’—I oppose it vehemently—‘but, if the FPS as a representative of the public on the this is the process that is to be implemented, management of Tasmania’s forests. No genuine let the industry stick by it.’ The bill talks in community groups have been accorded this grand terms about ecologically sustainable privilege. management, protecting forests and wildlife, The log trucks roll day and night in Tasmania, reserving areas where there are rare and en- pulverising the landscape to the financial benefit dangered species. The Greens amendment of the well-heeled and well-connected few, in- says, ‘Let’s make that binding.’ The bill itself cluding former premier Robin Gray, now a di- says it is binding on the taxpayers of Austra- rector of Gunns. Despite the constant barrage of lia to compensate woodchip industries if, forestry propaganda (much of it funded by tax- somewhere down the line, they are denied payers), the comprehensive Tasmania Together the opportunity to destroy forests. We are survey— saying: let the industry and the state govern- which, I interpolate, was set up by the Bacon ments who are employing the Forest Prac- government— tices Code be bound by what they say in the discovered 80% of Tasmanians helplessly oppose legislation and all attendant documentation the pillage. Groups of medical, veterinary, teach- about their adherence to environmental prin- ing, timber working, and legal professionals have ciples. But, no, there are double standards been formed recently to oppose the destruction. here: give the industry the money, bind the But with both the state’s major political parties taxpayers to give the industry the money but deep in the industry’s pocket, and with an inef- deny the taxpayers their wish that the forests fectual or compromised media, outside help will be needed to stop the looting of a unique and eco- shall be, if not protected, properly managed nomically priceless environment. and don’t put any impulsion into that. That comes from Mr Hayward in Weegena in The Labor Party—the Crean opposition— Tasmania, and copies were sent to ABC TV, supports John Howard, the honourable Prime ABC Radio National, the BBC, Channel 9, Minister of this country and leader of his the Australian, the Sydney Morning Herald, party, to the hilt in this denial of the Austra- the Age, Senator Ian Macdonald and House lian people’s wishes. This legal binding of of Representatives member the Hon. Carmen the Australian people to give woodchip cor- Lawrence. porations huge payouts of millions of dollars if any forests that are currently unprotected What an extraordinary indictment this is are protected in the future. What extraordi- of the industry and of the political edifice Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 627 nary legislation! What an extraordinary get- ity on this one. Neither Prime Minister How- together by the big parties to deny the Aus- ard nor the Leader of the Opposition once tralian people their wish in this matter at the raised this issue in the run to the election. behest of big industry. They know how unpopular and on the nose One hundred years ago, President Roose- the government’s destruction of forests is. velt in the United States said that we cannot Question negatived. have a functioning democracy until we get Senator Brown—I want it recorded that I the influence of the corporate sector out of it. was the only voice in the chamber that sup- He would turn in his grave if he could see ported that call. how politicians have failed to get rid of that corrupting influence. We have heard today The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN about how it goes to the highest levels in (Senator Lightfoot)—Yes. Thank you, Tasmanian politics. I will be introducing a Senator Brown. bill for a thorough investigation into the lot; Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.48 but you know what is going to happen: the a.m.)—I move Australian Greens amendment Labor Party will again join with the Liberals (6) on revised sheet 2432: to deny an investigation, because it is not in (6) Page 5 (after line 4), after clause 5, insert: their interests to have their friends in the 5A Parliamentary scrutiny of RFAs logging industry—who are getting their (1) The Minister must not enter into an pockets lined at public expense through this RFA on behalf of the Commonwealth legislation—open to public gaze and cross- except in accordance with this section. examination. (2) Where a Minister has already entered There is widespread corruption in the in- into an RFA on behalf of the Com- dustry in terms of adherence to even the law, monwealth the Minister must cause a and the Forest Practices Code is laid down in copy of that RFA to be tabled in each several states. It is a deplorable state of af- House of the Parliament within 15 sit- fairs. It may not be interesting to the media ting days of the commencement of this at the moment. Very often these matters are section whereupon it becomes subject not covered by the media, because, on the to this section. one hand, there is massive advertising by the (3) Before signing an RFA on behalf of industry in the media, and, on the other hand, the Commonwealth, the Minister must cause a copy of the proposed RFA to for an issue to be big it needs to be one in be tabled in each House of the Parlia- which the Labor Party puts a difference be- ment. tween itself and the government. On this oc- (4) Either House of the Parliament, within casion, the Labor Party in Tasmania is worse 15 sitting days of that House after an than the Nationals and the Liberals when it RFA or a proposed RFA has been ta- comes to the destruction of forests. bled, may, under motion upon notice, The Bacon government, and the real pass a resolution disapproving of the power behind the throne down there, Deputy RFA or the proposed RFA in whole or Premier Paul Lennon, have a deplorable rec- in part. ord when it comes to their obligation to (5) Where: manage these forests—if not in the public (a) a notice referred to in subsection (4) interest then at least according to the tenets is given with respect to an RFA or a of the Forest Practices Code. The numbers proposed RFA; and are not with the Greens, the numbers are not (b) at the expiration of the period during with Senator Murphy, and the numbers are which a resolution disapproving of not with the absent Democrats in this debate. the RFA or a proposed RFA would Senator Ian Macdonald—It is called have been passed: democracy. (i) the notice has not been with- drawn and the relevant motion Senator BROWN—Go to the polls, has not been called on; or Minister. You will find you are in the minor- 628 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

(ii) the relevant motion has been section whereupon it becomes subject called on, moved and seconded to this section. and has not been withdrawn or In other words, the regional forest agreement otherwise disposed of; has to be brought into both houses of parlia- the RFA or the proposed RFA is ment within 15 days. It goes on: deemed to have been disapproved of. (3) Before signing an RFA on behalf of (6) If: the Commonwealth, the Minister must (a) either House of the Parliament cause a copy of the proposed RFA to passes a resolution in accordance be tabled in each House of the Parlia- with subsection (4); or ment. (b) a proposed RFA is deemed to have (4) Either House of the Parliament, within been disapproved of under subsec- 15 sitting days of that House after an tion (5); RFA or a proposed RFA has been ta- the Minister must not enter into the bled, may, under motion upon notice, proposed RFA on behalf of the Com- pass a resolution disapproving of the monwealth. RFA or the proposed RFA in whole or in part. (7) If: (5) Where: (a) neither House of the Parliament passes a resolution in accordance (a) a notice referred to in subsection (4) with subsection (4); and is given with respect to an RFA or a proposed RFA— (b) a proposed RFA is not deemed to have been disapproved of under that is, the minister has caused a regional subsection (5); forest agreement to be tabled— the Minister may enter into the RFA (b) at the expiration of the period during on behalf of the Commonwealth on or which a resolution disapproving of after the day immediately following the RFA or a proposed RFA would the last day on which a resolution dis- have been passed: approving of the proposed RFA could (i) the notice has not been with- have been passed. drawn and the relevant motion (8) In this section: has not been called on; or RFA includes an amended RFA. (ii) the relevant motion has been This amendment is about the democracy the called on, moved and seconded and has not been withdrawn or minister has just been speaking about, which otherwise disposed of; is to ensure parliamentary scrutiny of the regional forest agreements. One of the things the RFA or the proposed RFA is deemed to have been disapproved of. that is happening here is that the govern- ment, with the opposition, are moving This is a very strong way of saying that the through this legislation to remove parlia- RFA must shape up before parliament. Par- ment’s overview of what is happening on the liament needs to look at it. If it is not looked ground in the forests of Western Australia, at and approved, it will be rejected. It con- Victoria, New South Wales and Tasmania. tinues: The amendment, under the heading ‘Parlia- (6) If: mentary scrutiny of regional forest agree- (a) either House of the Parliament ments’, says: passes a resolution in accordance (1) The Minister must not enter into an with subsection (4); or RFA on behalf of the Commonwealth (b) a proposed RFA is deemed to have except in accordance with this section. been disapproved of under subsec- (2) Where a Minister has already entered tion (5); into an RFA on behalf of the Com- the Minister must not enter into the monwealth the Minister must cause a proposed RFA on behalf of the Com- copy of that RFA to be tabled in each monwealth. House of the Parliament within 15 sit- ting days of the commencement of this Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 629

(7) If: is negative in both cases. Australia has a two (a) neither House of the Parliament million hectare suite of plantations which has passes a resolution in accordance enough wood to provide all this nation’s with subsection (4); and wood needs. Native forest logging was (b) a proposed RFA is not deemed to meant to be tailed off as the plantations came have been disapproved of under on stream—and these plantations were paid subsection (5); for largely by public money in the past in the Minister may enter into the RFA make-work schemes—so that the native for- on behalf of the Commonwealth on or ests could be saved as the plantations grew. after the day immediately following The plantations provide wood for house the last day on which a resolution dis- building, paper and a multitude of other approving of the proposed RFA could needs. But, in effect, the industry is making have been passed. so much money out of destroying the forests Finally, the amendment has a definitional that it wants to continue doing it. It is doing component. This amendment is saying that this subsidised by the taxpayers. regional forest agreements should come be- So what is happening with the plantation fore parliament, be vetted by parliament and wood as these plantations reach maturity? It not be entered into finally until parliament is being exported overseas as whole logs, has given authority. Why should that be? and the downstream processing, the jobs and There are a number of reasons. The first is the money are going to Korea, China and that over $300 million of taxpayers’ money other countries. There is always the promise has been given through the regional forest of some new investment. We heard some agreement process to the forest industries. from Senator O’Brien this morning when he That is a massive amount by anybody’s was talking about whole native logs from reckoning. Tasmania being exported to Finland a while Are we as a parliament acting responsibly ago. But it just does not happen because it is if we say in return that we will not have too lucrative for the industry to be wood- scrutiny of those agreements? I reiterate: the chipping huge amounts of forests and send- regional forest agreements have not been ing them overseas and to be diverting the vetted by parliament. They were signed by small percentage of those forests into the the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister flew sawmilling industry when the woodchippers to Perth, to Melbourne, to Sydney and to arrive. Sawmilling these days is a by-product Perth in Tasmania—where he was met with a of woodchipping. That sawn timber coming huge protest—on a number of occasions in out of our native forests at the behest of the the last several years, and he signed the lucrative woodchip industry then floods the agreements together with the then state pre- market, displacing the plantation timbers miers. The federal parliament has not been which are exported overseas. Australians party to those agreements, yet they involve lose out all the way down the line. The jobs hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayers’ are exported, the forests are destroyed and money. It is incumbent on the parliament not the opportunity for job creation in the much to allow the executive to behave solely in more job-prospective industry of presenting that fashion with taxpayers’ money. It is in- those forests to visitors from overseas is lost cumbent on the parliament to make sure it at the same time. scrutinises massive amounts of taxpayers’ I have yet to see a Japanese visitor to money given to an industry which should be Tasmania who did not say that they preferred profitable in itself but which is actually being to see Tasmania’s forests vertical than on the propped up by taxpayers. back of a log truck being sent to a woodchip But then you look at what the taxpayers mill to go to Japan. Japanese visitors do not themselves think of this industry and know about it and they are horrified when whether the industry itself is necessary. I am they find that their country is a major recipi- referring here to the broadscale logging of ent of the devastating woodchip industry in old-growth forests in Australia. The answer Victoria, New South Wales and Tasmania. 630 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

Japanese visitors are coming in bigger and vention of a clear-felled area—total destruc- bigger numbers to see what? To look at log tion of the selfsame forest. trucks? I doubt it. To look at clear-felled ar- We have got this extraordinary deception eas? Of course they are not. To look at For- whereby Forestry Tasmania say, ‘We will estry Tasmania plantations? No, they are not. protect any tree that is over 85 metres high.’ They want to come and see the wildlife in That is nearly as long as a football field Tasmania. They want to come and see the turned on end. It is much higher than the intact forests. They want to come and enjoy Wrest Point Casino in Tasmania. It is much the experience of nature. higher than the sails of the Opera House in Recently in the south of Hobart an idea Sydney. These trees are soaring from water long put forward by conservations was taken level right up into the high arch of the Har- up, and an airwalk was built at taxpayer ex- bour Bridge in Sydney. What do Forestry pense—some $5 million—in the Huon Val- Tasmania say? They say, ‘We will protect a ley. Forestry Tasmania thought that this tree if you can show it is that high.’ In the would be a good way of expending taxpay- meantime they have undoubtedly logged ers’ money to put its ecotourism veneering many trees that high or higher in a postage on display and to distract from the increasing stamp sized protected area. destruction of nearby forests. It does not do That brings me to the asseveration of the that. While it has had a massive number of minister, Senator Ian Macdonald, about these visitors, they have not gone to see the clear- areas, that you will see little areas which are felled areas. Indeed, Forestry Tasmania did protected when you go to clear-felled areas, not put up an airwalk in a clear-felled area— which are for the good of nature. I can show although the airwalk paid for by the taxpay- him a photograph of such an area in the ers is of such size that you cannot miss see- Tarkine Wilderness in north-west Tasmania ing clear-felled areas when you get up there. left to protect the nest of an endangered It put the airwalk in a remnant area of intact Tasmanian wedge-tailed eagle, bigger than forests—namely, the Tahune Reserve on the the mainland wedge-tail. Forestry Tasmania Huon River. I will give Senator O’Brien a came along after logging and had left this little geography tip: it is just downstream, area and were very proud of it and set it on not upstream, of the conjunction with the fire, because that is the next thing—the fire- Picton River. When you get to the end of the storm—and burnt down the eagle’s nest and airwalk you are confronted with a massive that copse of trees with it. clear-felled area on Pear Hill above the junc- tion of those two rivers—ugly, diverting, We go back to the Styx, and the minister distracting and degrading of that experience. says in this place that the Forest Practices Many people comment on it. Code officers are not corrupt—‘If they are, tell me about it’—that they do not breach What of the Styx Valley to the north, their principles, that they go on in front of which has even bigger forests much more the bulldozers and make sure that the envi- intact? This is terrain in which, in future, ronment is looked after. Not so. Let me give millions of visitors from around the world a very simple but startling example. The will delight. It has the tallest trees in the Skelton Creek road was driven south of the Southern Hemisphere, the biggest hardwood Styx up onto the ridge and Forestry Tasma- trees in the world; indeed, the biggest trees in nia, backed by the Howard government and the world outside North America. When I the Labor opposition, was moving in to cut it was out there a week or two ago there were down. At the end of 1998 the Wilderness people there from Western Australia, New Society in Tasmania went in and decorated South Wales, Germany and America. They one of the trees, which happened to be 76 look at these gigantic living creatures soaring metres high, with thousands of coloured up to nearly 100 metres high and they marvel lights and on top a four-metre-across huge at them. Then they drive on to the next lot of star which is still there and lights up each tall trees but in the meantime have the inter- night on a solar panel system, which is a phenomenal thing to see. The attendant Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 631 worldwide interest, because this is the tallest not note him saying that it had been for- Christmas tree ever decorated anywhere on warded to him directly, but apparently it has. the face of the planet, saved the day. Forestry Perhaps it went to him before it came to me; Tasmania did not want the bad publicity it I do not know. The reality is that I did re- would get from destroying that particular ceive a letter in the last few days. I cannot batch of trees. In looking around there, the attest to the time because I do not operate a Wilderness Society found what the Forest date stamp system here in Canberra. It is a Practices officers did not and Forestry Tas- substantial letter which will, like the great mania did not—that is, an eagle’s nest in the many other pieces of correspondence that I vicinity. Under the Forest Practices Code, it receive, receive the appropriate attention and is illegal to road or log within 200 metres of will receive a response. I do not propose to an eagle’s nest, but Forestry Tasmania had respond to my correspondence in the cham- already roaded right through the middle and ber, but it is curious that Senator Brown has knocked down huge trees in the process, this letter, is familiar with it—he is obviously breaching its own code. The minister is not familiar with its author—and chooses to seek even listening to this because he knows he to use the time of the chamber, in fact about cannot answer it. It was left to the Wilder- 30 minutes of the debating time so far, in ness Society to do that work, and now there referring to that piece of correspondence. If is a temporary stay of execution on these it assists Senator Brown, I can tell him that grand forests in the vicinity of that eagle’s that correspondence will be responded to in nest. (Time expired) due course, like other correspondence that is Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (12.03 received. Perhaps he can convince the gov- p.m.)—The opposition will not be supporting ernment to increase resources for the oppo- this amendment. Senator Brown will no sition so that we can attend to those matters doubt suggest there is some irony in the fact expeditiously. Perhaps in those circum- that we supported a similar but not identical stances there would be a moderate decrease proposition when this bill was before the in the time that it takes to respond to sub- Senate in 1999, almost three years ago. Cer- stantial matters raised in correspondence tainly it is three years since we inquired into such as that. In any event, the author of that the 1998-99 legislation. Of course, in our letter, together with other authors, is entitled amendment we did say that the regional for- to a response and will receive one. est agreements then in effect would not be In relation to this suggestion again by the subject of the so-called disallowance Senator Brown that there is broad scale log- provision now proposed by Senator Brown. ging of old-growth forests—I think those We are now in a situation where almost all of were his words—I repeat that, of the old- the regional forest agreements have been growth forest in public forests in our—his signed and we are not proposing now to sup- and my—state of Tasmania, about 85 per port an amendment which would allow for cent will never be logged because they are in disallowance of all those agreements, and reserved areas. In addition, although fewer of particularly those which we stated in 1999 the old-growth forests on private land are so we did not believe should necessarily be the protected—I think it is in the vicinity of 68 subject of that process. So we will not be per cent at the moment—measures are in supporting this amendment. We do say that train which are day by day increasing the the amendment which I believe has been amount of old-growth forest which is pro- circulated in my name on behalf of the oppo- tected and which will never be logged. So it sition in relation to the joint parliamentary is incorrect to say that there is broad scale committee will provide adequate review pro- logging of old-growth forests. visions for the parliament in relation to this The assertions with regard to responses matter. from tourists about what they observe from I guess I should take this opportunity to the air walk in relation to a small area that comment on Senator Brown’s apparent pos- currently does not have any trees on it are session of correspondence sent to me. I did inconsistent with the fact that we are looking 632 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 at one of the most successful forestry based truth when he says that no-one is going to tourism attractions—or, indeed, any tourism travel to Tasmania to see logs on a log truck. attraction—in Tasmania. It is a phenomenal But there are a great many opportunities for attraction, which is outdoing its own predic- visitors to Tasmania to see working forests, tions. There was a tremendous underestimate forests which will never be logged—and of the attraction of members of the public to there are a great many of both of those—and go and see for themselves not only, as Sena- many other beauties of the state while they tor Brown described, the remnant old-growth are there. I would hope that he encourages forests in and around the Tahune Reserve but those that he is associated with to do so, as also the forests in various stages of regen- would I. I did think it was important to say eration—forests which have been logged that there is nothing in what Senator Brown over the years and which are in the process says that detracts from the fact that working of regrowing and are available for harvest. forests are part of the state—any state— One could not say that Forestry Tasmania having an industry based on forestry, and were in the process of setting up an attraction that is what this legislation is, in part, about which shielded viewers from the realities of achieving. a working forest. They did not. What did There are already a number of regional happen when this attraction was opened to forest agreements. They have been in place the public was that the Greens demonstrated for so long that, as we have heard in the de- and harassed people who were attending, bate, they are coming up for or are at their including the wife of the mayor who was first five-yearly review. We have an amend- there because the mayor of the region had ment later which will enhance the ability of been part of the team. the parliament to scrutinise the operation of Senator Calvert—Betty Norris. the industry over the life of the first cycle of Senator O’BRIEN—The lady’s name is the regional forest agreements. In relation to Betty Norris. Her husband had been part of the performance of the industry, as I said the impetus to get the project off the ground. earlier, it is the opposition’s view that this She was the subject of some physical jos- industry has this first 20-year cycle of re- tling—she was jostled around, quite inap- gional forest agreements to establish that it propriately so, by people who were trying to will deliver to the Australian community discourage members of the public from go- value in return for the community making ing to attend the opening of this venture. It is available to the industry, in a secure fashion very popular and there is the expectation and in a way where they do not have the ex- that, over this first year of its opening, some cuse of saying, ‘We could not get finance 200,000 visitors will attend. because we did not have a secure resource,’ some sort of downstream processing devel- Senator Calvert—It was vandalised, too, opment so that the value of the industry is if you recall. maximised to the community, and indeed Senator O’BRIEN—Senator Calvert re- that jobs arise from downstream processing minds me that there has been some vandal- in the industry. I did give the example of the ism of the air walk, and that is regrettable. It proposals for rotary peel veneer operations has not detracted from its popularity. The which, as I understand them, are going to be scale of the amenity there is a bit too small directed towards using regrowth forest and for the amount of attraction that this facility logs which might otherwise be substantially has. It is good to be able to criticise the plan- suitable only for woodchip and, in fact, con- ners on the basis that they underestimated its verting part of the resource that Senator value, but it certainly is a very valuable and Brown suggests is available only to the attractive forestry based tourism attraction. woodchip industry to an industry which will I agree with Senator Brown that no-one involve significant employment, export op- finds log trucks attractive. They are certainly portunity and import replacement opportu- not going to be a tourist attraction in any part nity for this country. That is just an example of the world. He does state a self-evident of a number of opportunities that arise for the industry which, it is the opposition’s Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 633 hope, will be enhanced by the passage of this cated, some of these logs are being sent away legislation. We really do not see the point of for the purpose of trialing the material to endorsing a process which Senator Brown, I determine its suitability for processing into believe, intends to be used to try to under- veneer or plywood. Back in 1996, I think it mine further the confidence in the industry. was, we sent a significant shipment of logs I know there are groups who are going from Tasmania, through the port of Hobart, around trying to undermine the company to Korea supposedly for that purpose. It was Gunns in terms of investment and trying to organised through a Korean by the name of undermine its share value. We heard in the Mr Simon Kang. If I recall correctly—and I debate today that a forestry company is not must check my information on this—at that an ethical investment, in the same way that time it was found that the wood was not investment in a tobacco company is not an really suitable. ethical investment. I completely reject the With regard to trials, earlier I mentioned comparison that, by implication, is made the industry development plan for Tasmania between the two industries. On the one hand, and spoke about the South African company we are talking about companies that are pro- Kortas Veneer. Kortas Veneer’s parent com- ducing products that are injurious to health in pany is actually a Korean company by the a very direct way; on the other hand, we are name of Sam-O. The interesting thing about talking about an industry that is using a re- it is this: it has undertaken a feasibility newable resource. Trees do grow; I do not study—in fact, it is not quite correct to say think there is any doubt that it is a renewable that, because it was actually a pre-feasibility resource. It is also a sustainable resource study—funded jointly by the Common- when properly managed, and that is what this wealth, the state and the company. It cost legislation is about. I think it is entirely inap- about $150,000. I understand that the pre- propriate to seek to compare the forestry in- feasibility study has been completed but that dustry with the tobacco industry, and I think the results have not yet been made public. I that shows you the level to which the debate also understand that the amount of money in this country seems to have degenerated. expended will probably be mentioned in the Perhaps we should get back to the realities five-yearly review of RFAs, and I find that and not make ridiculous comparisons like rather intriguing. Although they are not out that. yet, I understand they will come out Senator MURPHY (Tasmania) (12.16 shortly—which is another process I find p.m.)—I said that I would not get up in this quite interesting. debate again until I came to my amendments. We have a review of the RFA process that Unfortunately, when you have these sorts of is supposed to assess how it is all going. On debates issues come up and senators say this occasion, which is the first occasion for things that, if they need to be corrected, Tasmania, for instance, the five-yearly re- should be corrected at the appropriate time. view process has been conducted by the Re- Senator O’Brien spoke earlier about his source Planning and Development Commis- knowledge of shipments of logs from Tas- sion—which is interesting. Again—and I say mania. He alluded to the matter of logs being this to the Minister for Forestry and Conser- shipped to Finland or Korea, or both, and vation and his officers through you, Mr that they were the only logs he was aware of Temporary Chairman—there was no public that were being shipped out of Tasmania. For process. The terms of reference—which, the record, logs have been shipped to China unfortunately, I did not bring down with from Tasmania, from both private and public me—which were established by the state forests. Indeed, I should have taken the time minister were so limited that it would have to check the quantity, but I think either been almost impossible for the Resource 10,000 or 20,000 tonnes or cubic metres Planning and Development Commission to went to China. make any real assessment of how the state This is not the first time that logs have was going in delivering the objectives and been sent to Korea. As Senator O’Brien indi- some outcomes of the regional forest agree- 634 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 ment. They would have had to rely entirely the parliament. Even if it is only my view on the advice given to them by the state that what I have suggested by way of an authorities, because the terms of reference amendment will improve the legislation, it is were so restricted. The only capacity for the not for this parliament to question the con- public to have input into this debate in re- stitutionality of that; that is a matter for the spect of the review was to make some com- courts. Therefore, it comes back to this point: ment about the terms of reference. either we are prepared to take the steps that The draft review report, which is immi- we think can deliver greater integrity to the nent, will be available for public comment. system because we will have more checks That public comment comes in the form of and balances or we are not. That is what we me and/or other members of the public being should stand up and say: we are prepared or able to write in and say, ‘We think your we are not. It is that simple. I note what findings in this or that aspect of the report Senator Brown has proposed. It has been are inaccurate.’ That is the end of that—no proposed before. I also note what has been further public debate, no further public input. proposed by the Labor opposition. I am Obviously, the Resource Planning and De- happy to support either approach, but at the velopment Commission will take note of the end of the day we must take up the responsi- public comments that they receive and, hope- bility of putting in place a mechanism that fully, will write back to those who write to will give credibility to this process and re- them. They will probably say, ‘We don’t store public confidence in it because right agree with you. On the great volume of evi- now there is none. dence that we were given, we have con- I know that the minister has said on a cluded thus.’ number of occasions that there are all man- I come back to my point that this is where ner of people who are supportive of just get- the problem lies in this process: there are no ting this legislation through. Of course there checks and balances. There is no real capac- are. This is a funny debate: it has been going ity for anybody to go out there and take ac- on for umpteen years and it has often been count of what is really happening. That is the the case that there have been two very po- issue we must address. To suggest that the larised views. That is an unfortunate conse- Commonwealth take a position of greater quence of what I think was bad government monitoring of what is happening with the policy at the time and poor government man- management of the forests is not to suggest agement of the issue at the time. That is what in any way that we are somehow seeking to has happened; nevertheless, by the same to- block the ability of an industry to develop or ken, the great bulk of people have a view to threaten the security of resource to the that there is no credibility in the process. industry. What I have been suggesting is That is what we ought to seek to rectify. It is merely that we want to make sure that what our public responsibility. I would urge that at we are told is being done is actually being some point, as I have said before, we actu- done. That is why we must pursue these ally take that step, and I sincerely hope we matters. do. I cannot understand anybody in this Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- chamber saying, ‘We do not want checks and sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- balances; we will have an argument about tion) (12.27 p.m.)—The government will not constitutionality.’ It is not for this place to be supporting this proposal or any other pro- determine constitutionality; that is a matter posal along these lines. As a result of discus- for the courts. If this parliament puts matters sions over a long period, the government has that are unconstitutional into legislation, it is put in place in the Regional Forest Agree- the right of the states and territories to chal- ments Bill 2002 as it is presented to parlia- lenge that. It is not for us to determine that, ment a series of measures which will provide and so I cannot understand why, on those for parliamentary scrutiny of the RFAs. I grounds, we would reject suggestions for remind senators that sections 1 and 2 provide improving legislation we are to pass through that a copy of the RFA must be tabled in each Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 635 house within 15 sitting days of the com- relates back to people, which relates back to mencement of the section or within 15 days the economy of the various states, particu- of the RFA being entered into, whichever is larly Tasmania, which is so reliant on this— the latter, except where the RFA has been and it takes away mischievous government tabled in that house previously. The bill goes intervention, which has been a great depres- on to provide that a copy of the amendment sant of the industry over more than a decade. to the RFA must be tabled in each house We agreed over the last 10 years through within 15 sitting days, whichever is later. negotiation, through consultation, through These are to be tabled after the RFAs have arguments and through debates between been agreed, and the agreements have been governments of all political persuasions that signed by two sovereign governments. Sec- it was important to get this out of the politi- tions 4 and 5 provide that a copy of the RFA cal process and give the industry a chance, annual report must be tabled in each house of give those who rely on the industry for the parliament. The bill, as proposed, goes jobs—the small timber communities, the on to provide that a copy of any RFA review small country communities—a chance to get must be tabled in each house of the parlia- on with it. In spite of the best attempts of ment, and the bill as it stands defines the people like Senator Brown to destroy this RFA review report and the RFA annual re- industry, to destroy jobs, and to destroy small port. country communities, they are there. They Those of us in this chamber know this, but stay there in confidence and in hope that anyone else not familiar with the workings of once these RFA bills have legislative backing this chamber and the House of Representa- that will give them a sense of certainty and tives may not know that, every time these are security, which they have not heretofore had. tabled and every time a report is put in, there We will not be supporting this or any of is opportunity everywhere for comment to be the other proposals unless there is some de- made and debate to be had and points to be bate that causes me to change my mind. I raised. These chambers, of course, always have looked through them very carefully. I have the ability to set up select committees have had considerable advice on them and or to refer things to existing committees, and discussed them with the people in the small so there is ample opportunity for full and communities whose jobs are reliant on the adequate parliamentary scrutiny of every provisions and those in the industry whose aspect of the regional forest agreements. So investments will create jobs. As a result of we will not be supporting this amendment or my consultations, we will not be supporting any of the others. this or any other proposal. There are other Senator Murphy—Will you support my perverse legislative impacts of Senator select committee? Brown’s amendment which I will not bother Senator IAN MACDONALD—I am not to go into. With respect, these proposals are sure what you are talking about, Senator about gutting the bill and causing legal mine- Murphy, to be honest. I should not say ‘no’ fields that would make it unworkable and off the top of my head because I am not therefore contrary to the whole purpose of aware of your proposal for the select com- the RFA in the first place. That is why we mittee. There is opportunity for parliamen- will not be supporting these proposals. tary scrutiny and that has been deliberately I think it is important to again look at the written into the bill. We have heard the dis- purpose of the bill. Senator Murphy made cussions over a long period and the previous the comment in his contribution that, if there proposals to put this bill through the parlia- is any suggestion of unconstitutionality of ment. The government is determined this any proposal he puts up, the parliament time to get this bill through because of what should accept that and should leave it to the it does for people’s jobs, what it does for the courts to decide. Unfortunately, Senator families in the forest communities, what it Murphy, governments do not have that lux- does for small timber towns, what it does for ury. We have to try to act responsibly. Where certainty and security in the industry—which things are obviously not constitutionally ap- 636 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 propriate then it behoves governments to is better than nothing. It is very important to deal with them at the appropriate time and get this through and to continue to address not say, ‘We know it is unconstitutional, but any other issues relating to forestry opera- we will let it go through and let some court tions over which the Commonwealth gov- determine it later.’ ernment has constitutional jurisdiction Senator Murphy—No, I did not say that. henceforth as these issues arise. Senator IAN MACDONALD—I thought Senator Brown or Senator Murphy spoke you did. about a rare Tasmanian eagle. The stand of trees containing the eagles’ habitat is retained Senator Murphy—You have not pro- but then it is fire bombed at a later stage so duced any evidence to prove that what I have the eagles are destroyed anyhow. My advice proposed is unconstitutional. is that the firing processes provided will take Senator IAN MACDONALD—I am that into account and the fires will not dam- really not commenting on your proposal, age this rare species. Senator Murphy, because we have not ad- I am also advised by Environment Aus- dressed that in full yet. I thought you were tralia that the particular species of bird is one making the general point that whether or not to which the Environment Protection and it is unconstitutional we should pass it any- Biodiversity Conservation Act applies. I am how because it is not for us to determine but trying to get advice about the complaints that for the High Court to determine. That is what have been made regarding the particular in- I thought you said. If you did not say that, I cident that the senator spoke about. If there is withdraw my comments and apologise to destruction of species that are subject to the you. EPBC, we would be very keen to know Senator Murphy interjecting— whether complaints have been made and, if The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN they have, what has happened to them. If (Senator Forshaw)—Any comments should they have been dealt with inappropriately, be addressed through the chair, Senator Mur- then it certainly is something we should have phy and Senator Macdonald. been aware of. We would have appreciated it Senator IAN MACDONALD—You are if the senator’s office which made the alle- quite right, Mr Temporary Chairman. I make gation had brought it to our attention earlier. that general point in passing. Again I say to I suspect that this probably did not happen Senator Murphy that we think this bill is ap- because so much of this debate goes on lies. propriate and it will achieve the intended I would like to accuse Senator Brown of ly- purposes of this government, previous gov- ing, but that would be unparliamentary, so I ernments and state governments of all politi- will not. cal persuasions. You think it has flaws, but The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—I passing this bill will give greater job security am glad you recognise that, Minister. Other- and greater encouragement for investment, wise, I would have had to draw your atten- which creates jobs, than rejecting it or hav- tion to it. ing the bill filibustered to such an extent, as Senator IAN MACDONALD—The with the previous bills, that the will of the comments that he makes about there being people will never be properly tested by a logging in World Heritage listed forest would vote on the bill in this chamber. fall into the category of that definition be- There are some senators who know that cause they are just wrong. I have challenged the people who represent by far the great him about it. I know he says it all the time, majority of Australians support this bill and but he usually says it in places where he is want to get it through and attempts to stop not challenged. I have asked him to name the the vote—and I am not suggesting this is World Heritage listed forests where he says you, Senator Murphy, because I accept your logging is going on at the present time, but confirmation that that is not your purpose— there has been no response; he has been are not helpful. Even if it has the flaws that caught out. He continues in that vein by al- you think it has—I do not agree with that—it leging in this debate that I refuse to go and Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 637 see a forest. I expect that sort of thing from Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (12.42 Senator Brown, but people listening to the p.m.)—I bring the minister’s attention back debate might get confused. They might not to the eagle’s nest he was talking about, and have heard on the day we were not on broad- the fact that it took the Wilderness Society to cast that I indicated to all senators that I was discover this eagle’s nest, but the damage very happy to accept invitations. Senator had already been done. The road and the de- Murphy has issued invitations and so have a struction of the tall forest through the 200 lot of other people—people in the industry metre so-called ‘safe zone’ that is supposed and conservation groups. I indicated right at to be around these eagles’ nests had been the beginning of this debate that, as my time bulldozed. The chainsaws had been in. No permits, I will be down there. I cannot wait doubt the eagles in that season were driven to get on the skywalk that Senator O’Brien back out. spoke about. Senator Ian Macdonald—But you said Senator Calvert—The airwalk. they were firebombed. Be consistent! Senator IAN MACDONALD—The air- Senator BROWN—The minister inter- walk. Senator Calvert tells me it is absolutely rupts yet again to say that they were fire- magnificent. I am very proud to learn that the bombed. Commonwealth government contributed to Senator Ian Macdonald—No, you said the airwalk with funds flowing pursuant to that. the RFA process and was something done by the Tasmanian government to encourage or- The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN dinary citizens, ordinary mums and dads and (Senator Forshaw)—Order, Minister! families to come in and have a look at these Senator BROWN—Let me reiterate in magnificent forests. But these are the sorts of the two minutes I have. There are two lots of activities that Senator Brown and his col- eagles’ nests. If he looks at the 1992 maga- leagues try to prevent anyone from doing. zine of Forestry Tasmania, he will see— They think that the forests are only there for Senator Ian Macdonald—That is 10 people who have five days during every years ago. working week not to work but to wander Senator BROWN—That is correct, it is through the forests and enjoy these experi- 10 years ago. The minister is certainly sharp ences. Great if you can get it, I guess. For the this afternoon. He will see that the eagle’s ordinary mums and dads who have to work, nest that was so-called ‘protected’ in one of these airwalks are a fabulous way to let peo- the copses he mentions, which Forestry Tas- ple experience the benefits of the forest. mania say are for protection, was burnt to a I know from Senator Brown’s contribution cinder. Forestry Tasmania lit a conflagra- that he is anti-industry, antipeople, antijobs, tion—it is in their own magazine—and burnt anticommunity, anti any government and all the copse with the eagle’s nest in it—that governments. He even says that there is a was in the Tarkine. These birds are down to conspiracy with the media and that everyone some 200 breeding pairs in the Styx River is against him. It is the sort of comment that Valley, where Forestry Tasmania broke the people like Stalin and Hitler used to make— Forestry Practices Code and drove a road you attack everyone, you are antiestablish- through the 200 metre exclusion zone. It was ment, you are an anarchist, you disagree with left to the Wilderness Society to discover everyone, you are the only one who is right. this, and that area is now under temporary Well, that is not the way the world is. Most protection. It would have been totally logged people, including this government, are by now, in breach of the Forest Practices genuine; we are trying to do the right thing Code and in breach of all the promises and by conservation practices, by the industry the EPBC, had that not happened. and by looking after jobs. This bill is part of Progress reported. that and that is why we are determined to get it through. (Time expired) 638 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

MATTERS OF PUBLIC INTEREST responsibility in regard to this test case. The The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Coroner formed the opinion that her office (Senator Hogg)—Order! It being 12.45 had no jurisdiction to investigate a perinatal p.m., I call on matters of public interest. death as the baby was born dead. The coro- ner’s reasoning was preposterous. I rely on Royal Women’s Hospital, Melbourne: the very advice given to the Coroner by the Abortions Acting Victorian Solicitor-General to prove Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (12.45 my point. He advised that the Coroner does p.m.)—I rise to speak on a matter which I have the power to investigate a stillbirth un- previously raised in the Senate on 29 No- der section 17(3) of the Coroner’s Act. The vember 2000. It was regarding a sad but Solicitor-General said: controversial incident that occurred at the This provision clearly recognises that the coroner Royal Women’s Hospital in Melbourne on 3 has power to hold an inquest into the death of a February 2000. The incident was a late-term child whose death may have been brought about abortion of some 32 weeks undertaken on the by circumstances constituting ‘child destruction’, grounds that the baby had dwarfism. In that an offence against section 10 of the Crimes Act address I claimed, firstly, the 32-week-old 1958. abortion was illegal under section 10 of the The absurdity of the Coroner’s position is Victorian Crimes Act which creates an of- that of course the baby was stillborn because fence of child destruction after 28 weeks. it was destroyed. The truth is the Coroner has The reason this law is black and white in the power but chose not to exercise it so as to making late-term abortion a criminal offence avoid engulfing her office in the controversy is that the baby can live separately from the of this case. While the advice given to the mother. That is, there is no contest of life Coroner was a quagmire of varying legal between the rights of the mother and the opinions and definitions, nevertheless there child; the child is viable without the mother. were certain home truths locked into the So- Secondly, I claimed in my address on 29 No- licitor-General’s report. Firstly—and I re- vember 2000, the incident that occurred at peat—the Coroner does have discretion un- the Royal Women’s Hospital was not a one- der section 17(3) of the act to investigate this off but rather one of many. case. Secondly, section 10 of the Crimes Act The evidence came from a freedom of in- is black and white law. It is an offence of formation request showing that over the past child destruction to terminate after 28 weeks. 10 years there had been on average a late- It is worthy to note that the Short Statured term abortion performed 44 times a year. People of Australia were also pressing the Moreover, the statistics showed an alarming Coroner for a hearing into this incident. Af- culture of acceptance by the Royal Women’s ter all, the so-called disability of dwarfism is Hospital of this practice, a culture running what they live with every day of their lives. rife from the hospital board down to the Surely they had a right to petition the Coro- doctors. This shocking procedure of the 32- ner, but it was denied. Imagine their fear that week-old baby being terminated was referred dwarfism now may have become socially to the Victorian State Coroner for investiga- unacceptable and morally repugnant, at least tion under criminal law. It was regarded as a at hospitals like the Royal Women’s. Worse test case as to the legality of late-term abor- though is that none of society’s institutions tions beyond 28 weeks. I remind the Senate will hear their voice let alone protect their that early-term abortions have already been right to be born. The Coroner has failed to ruled legal under the 1969 Victorian Su- grasp the enormity of her decision. preme Court decision known as the Men- What would dismay the public are the henit ruling. consequences of this failure to investigate. So that is where the matter rested until We now have a situation in the state of Vic- December 2001 when the Coroner handed toria where nine-month abortions are al- down her ruling on this controversial case. lowed and will occur particularly given the Her opinion was a remarkable abdication of culture at the Royal Women’s Hospital. The Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 639 danger is that in time it will be seen as nor- arrived at my rooms in Lygon Street. I performed mal and as acceptable as the 4,000 early- foetal reduction under ultrasound control … term abortions that occur each year at this Given the Lygon Street clinic of the doctor hospital. While section 10 of the Criminal undertakes ultrasound examinations and Code lay credibly on the Victorian statute abortions under the one roof, the doctor books, there seemed to be a line drawn at leaves himself open to accusations of unethi- what was acceptable practice, an acceptable cal behaviour by running a one stop shop. time for choice. It was a moral and legal How many women attending this clinic for a standard. It is a moral and legal standard now regular and natural ultrasound examination turned on its head. would be horrified to know only a connect- Not to bring the hospital to account means ing door separates them from the worst of all that this law has become unenforceable. abortion chambers! The gravity of combin- There is now no line in the sand and, for this, ing these services was born out by a discus- society deserves some answers to the major sion I had with a reliable medical source. shift in law and morality. To this end it is The greatest deception of all had occurred: incumbent upon the Victorian State Attor- there was a misdiagnosis of the child’s dis- ney-General to now do what the Coroner ability of dwarfism. The baby did not have failed to do—that is, make a decision re- dwarfism but was found to be normal on de- garding the law on late-term abortions. His livery. Further to this, source papers I have decision is simple: there is either a law received may bear out this allegation. I quote against late terminations or there is not. We from a theatre document from the Royal await his deliberation. Women’s Hospital, which has been under- Furthermore, given there has been no taken in handwriting, which states: ‘On de- thorough medical or procedural investigation livery: baby doesn’t look small’. The reason of this tragedy, it is incumbent upon the I do not table this document is that there is Medical Practitioners Board to convene a other confidential information on it which I hearing regarding a complaint of possible would not like to make public. malpractice. The police report undertaken for These matters really do require investiga- the Coroner was not a sufficient investigation tion and clearing up, matters of illegality, into the medical and ethical matters sur- unethical practice, misdiagnosis and misre- rounding this case. The police report can best porting. I urge the Medical Practitioners be described as shallow as it was a mere Board to meet their responsibilities in this compilation of unchallenged statements by matter. This is an inquiry the general public the offending team of doctors at the hospital. would support, to get to the truth and to have Only the Medical Practitioners Board has the the law clarified. While I accept that in the capability to hold a hearing into the com- Senate the issue of termination of pregnancy plaints and have the offending doctors ques- is a matter of conscience, nevertheless I be- tioned and their procedures investigated. lieve the general public do not accept the This is their charter. Not to do so will per- fundamental move in society’s standard mo- petuate the belief that there is a cover-up rality as shifted by the Royal Women’s Hos- going on, a cover-up to protect the very pital and waved through by the leaders of our doctor who carried out the ultrasound and main institutions. To leave this new wave of performed the foetal reduction. The offend- ‘child destruction’ unchecked will place us ing doctor’s statement to the police—and I on a roller-coaster ride to the outer limits. use the word ‘patient’ in place of the real Australian Labor Party: Shadow Public name—said: Administration and Home Affairs … it was arranged for— Portfolio the patient— Senator FAULKNER (New South to come to my rooms in Lygon Street that after- Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- noon for the procedure of foetal reduction … On ate) (12.55 p.m.)—It is timely that I take this that day— opportunity to explain the rationale for cre- the patient— ating a shadow home affairs portfolio. The 640 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 government last night introduced a package manifested by the September 11 attacks on of security measures and it is important that the United States. Labor believes that, after the framework through which the opposition the events of September 11, greater efforts is approaching these matters is fleshed out. must be made to ensure that Australia is as During the election we announced that our effective as possible in the coordination of its plan was to create a cabinet level minister for homeland security. The entire notion of home affairs. It would have covered and threat to national security has been trans- overseen all Commonwealth security func- formed as a result of the terrorist attacks on tions outside those provided by Defence, that day and we must rethink the way we including law enforcement and counter- look at national security issues. terrorism, aviation security and telecommu- Since September 11, the United States has nications interception. We would also have taken a fresh look at its homeland security. set up a coastguard to protect Australia’s Tragically, what was evident from the Sep- maritime borders 52 weeks of the year. The tember 11 attack was a lack of communica- coastguard would fall under the department tion and coordination between the different of home affairs except in times of conflict. security departments. The Bush administra- A home affairs ministry would be a pow- tion acted quickly to rectify this situation by erful and focused peacetime arrangement for establishing the Office for Homeland Secu- coordinating Australia’s domestic security— rity. This office aims to develop and coordi- a first in Australia’s history. We are still nate a comprehensive national strategy to committed to such a plan and that is why strengthen protections against terrorist Simon Crean has chosen to create the new threats or attacks in the United States by co- shadow portfolio of public administration ordinating federal, state and local counter- and home affairs. This shadow portfolio has terrorism efforts. The office headed by Tom coverage not only of Commonwealth secu- Ridge, former governor of Pennsylvania, is a rity functions but also of nonsecurity and cabinet position, directly reporting to Presi- administrative functions, including the Pub- dent Bush on homeland security matters. lic Service and ministerial and parliamentary In the USA, the idea of creating an Office services. It seeks to achieve better coordina- of Homeland Security originated from the tion between law enforcement, intelligence United States Commission on National Secu- and security agencies as well as civil rity/21st Century. In January 2001, after 2½ authorities and the Defence organisation. years of research, the bipartisan commission, Areas of responsibility include ASIO, avia- headed by former senators Gary Hart and tion security, information infrastructure pro- Warren Rudman, and including former Re- tection, international cooperation on terror- publican House Speaker Newt Gingrich, ism, national security and counter-terrorism, claimed the US needed to create a Homeland protective security policy and coordination. Security Office that would plan, coordinate Accordingly, the shadow home affairs port- and integrate various US government activi- folio will cover agencies such as the Austra- ties involved in homeland security. They lian Federal Police, Australian Security In- argued, in the face of an attack on US soil: telligence Organisation, Australian Protec- ... our nation has no coherent or integrated gov- tive Service and Protective Security Coordi- ernmental structures. nation Centre. Further, this portfolio will be handling the package of security laws cur- Without integrated governmental structures, rently before the federal parliament. they went on to say: The opposition believes the creation of a [A] direct attack against the American citizens on American soil is likely over the next quarter cen- cabinet level home affairs ministry would tury. provide a more efficient and effective way to coordinate and integrate the various Austra- The Canadian government has also estab- lian government activities involved in se- lished the Ad Hoc Cabinet Committee on curing our nation, particularly in the light of Public Security and Anti-Terrorism. Headed the escalation of international terrorism by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, John Manley, its aim is to develop a strategy to Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 641 address immediate challenges facing the counter-terrorism in the wake of September government in the area of public security. 11’ is just one example. The committee is also charged with coordi- The Secretary of the Department of De- nating antiterrorism efforts with other coun- fence, Dr Allan Hawke, admits that Australia tries, especially with the United States. The must place greater emphasis on ‘our domes- United Kingdom already coordinates its na- tic security environment’. Dr Hawke’s words tional security and home protection measures are that in 2002 there is a whole range of through the Home Office. The Home Office national threats which could undermine our minister is responsible for all home matters, national security, such as terrorism, people- including combating terrorism. smuggling, money laundering, drug traf- The opposition believes that Australia ficking and so on. These new kinds of threats should adopt the Home Affairs model. Yet, require a re-examination of the traditional when this idea was announced during the organisation and coordination of our home election, the Howard government simply security agencies. As Tom Ballantyne, avia- dismissed it. When the Prime Minister was tion correspondent for Hong Kong’s Orient asked if a cabinet level home affairs ministry Aviation, wrote in the Australian of 4 Octo- was a good idea, he responded: ber 2001, a home affairs ministry is the ‘key Well, you need responses not bureaucratic to defeating terrorism’, at least where airlines changes ... It’s not a response to the problem. are concerned, because it totally coordinates When asked if the Attorney-General was the myriad of agencies involved. able to coordinate such measures, the Prime Although Australia, fortunately, has had Minister again dismissed the question. Lyn- limited experience of terrorism, September ton Crosby, the Liberal Party director, argued 11 indicated how vulnerable we could be to that Kim Beazley’s decision to ‘set up a new such attacks. And, though it would be foolish and powerful ministry of home affairs’ was to claim that we are in the same position as ridiculous because, in his own words, ‘We the United States, we are not divorced from had one. It was abolished by Labor in the global threat either. As President Bush 1998’—I interpolate there that I think he indicated last year, we are now dealing with may have the wrong year—‘and now terrorism on a global scale. This is some- Beazley says he will bring it back.’ thing new—something that we have not ex- Mr Brendan Nelson, then Parliamentary perienced before. We believe that it warrants Secretary to the Minister for Defence, sug- the establishment of a home affairs portfolio. gested that what was being proposed here by The September 11 attacks also indicated Labor was simply the ‘establishment of an- how highly organised international terrorism other level of Commonwealth bureaucracy’. groups like Al-Qaeda have become. Of the Meanwhile, Peter Reith dismissed the idea as 19 hijackers or terrorists believed to have merely ‘bureaucratic reshuffling’, rejecting been responsible for the September 11 at- our proposals—particularly the idea for a tacks, the majority entered the United States national coastguard which would form part on business or tourist visas. At least six of of the home affairs department. Now that the the hijackers attended flight school in the election is behind us, it is to be hoped that United States. Some of them lived in the the government sets aside these simplistic United States for months or even years be- and knee-jerk responses and takes a fresh fore September 11. They were so secretive look at the opposition’s proposals. There are about their views that even their family encouraging signs that this may be happen- members could not believe they would do ing. There have been suggestions in the me- such a thing. Some of them were well- dia that the government might create a home educated, well-spoken men. Most of them affairs ‘superministry’. Fred Brenchley’s entered the United States legally. speculation in the Bulletin in December last What this indicates is that we must be year that a home affairs ministry remained an highly organised to target these groups option for the Prime Minister as he formu- through tighter border controls: air and sea, lated ‘a long-term response to Australia’s better security at airports and greater security 642 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 coordination. The US Director for Home- passing between the state, territory and fed- lands Security, Tom Ridge, recently re- eral governments. marked: We spend about 8½ per cent of our GDP ... one of the important aspects of the ‘Office of on health—and that is less than do many Homeland Security’ is that we’re creating ‘a dif- comparable OECD countries—and from that ferent language of preparedness as we go into the we achieve above-average health outcomes. future, so we’re just not either high alert or no So the total amount of money that we are alert.’ spending is roughly sufficient. As we can see Global terrorism is a new challenge and one from the United States experience, spending that calls for new responses. A recent report more money does not mean a better health in Jane’s Intelligence Review suggested that system, nor does it guarantee improved ac- the South Asian region is possibly now a cess. I argue that we can find the extra stronghold for the Al-Qaeda terrorist net- money that we need within the existing work. Al-Qaeda has been significantly dis- health system if we eliminate, or at least sub- rupted in the USA, Europe and East Africa, stantially reduce, waste. but in Asia its network and support structure In my brief time today I want to look at seem to remain almost intact. Recently we five general areas where waste is readily have heard that an Al-Qaeda cell had been identified, and many of these are interrelated. planning since 1997 to target and bomb a They include: waste in how we are using our number of buildings in Singapore. The tar- hospitals; waste in the Pharmaceutical Bene- gets included the Australian and British high fits Scheme; waste in subsidising insurance commissions as well as the US and Israeli products, particularly the 30 per cent rebate; embassies. Fortunately, the relevant authori- waste because we are not adequately funding ties were able to find and arrest those in- our GPs, nurses, allied health professionals volved in the plan before it went ahead. and others in the preventative part of the In this era of potential threats to our na- system; and waste because of the structure of tional security, we need a better organised our health system—and that brings in many and coordinated home security effort. Labor of those things I have just mentioned. is committed to a comprehensive plan for In looking at each of these, I will begin home security, ensuring it is effective for the with our hospitals. These are very much at times we now live in. A home affairs minis- the expensive end of our health system, but try is a vital part of that plan. they have become a place of last resort. If Health: Waste you cannot get the appropriate service you Senator LEES (South Australia (1.09 need then it is off to your nearest public hos- p.m.)—I want to look at waste in our health pital. So we have a lot of people in hospital system. I am not talking about $5 million who should not be there: they should never being diverted to a building in Canberra; I have been there, they should not be there at am talking about billions and billions of all or they have been there far too long. On dollars being wasted and not being spent the other side of the coin, we have many appropriately. As we know, our health sys- people urgently trying to get into our hospi- tem is under increasing pressure from a tals who should be there, but the beds are range of sources, and so we cannot afford to taken or there are not sufficient nurses to waste even as much as a few cents. The in- staff beds—and that is a separate issue. creased pressure is coming from a more in- Provision of more hospital beds, as some formed and more demanding consumer, from state governments tend to promise us at an ageing population and from new medi- election time, is not the answer. We must cines and technologies that are expensive. It look at ensuring that appropriate services are is coming because there is better and earlier available to patients, such as older Austra- detection of disease; and it is coming from lians who get stuck in hospital beds because more defensive medicine, from increasing they cannot go home after an illness or sur- costs for those who are going private and gery: they cannot go home because home from ongoing blame shifting and buck- services are not adequate or not available, or Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 643 families are not able to look after them or, have reported to emergency is not life threat- indeed, because they need a higher level of ening. I just looked at one example, and that care. This need for a higher level of care may was New South Wales: 25 per cent of pa- be only temporary; it could only be a few tients are waiting at least eight hours to get a days or maybe a couple of weeks. But respite bed. They have been classified as in need of beds are no longer available in our nursing admission, and they are still waiting hour homes. These beds are either permanently after hour. taken or fully booked, and there are very few To finish with hospitals, I want to mention rehabilitation places or step-down facilities. one other issue, that is, maternity services. I From time to time we have 20, 30, 40 or am not suggesting that new mothers should more elderly folk who are stuck and bored in be immediately pushed out as soon as baby teaching hospitals in beds that are urgently comes in order to free up a bed. Certainly needed for others. mothers should not be discharged from hos- People with severe drug and alcohol pital until breastfeeding is established or un- problems can also spend time in general less there is a midwife available to follow wards in our hospitals, as appropriate serv- her home. Full community midwifery pro- ices are frequently unavailable. You can add grams will shorten stays in hospital and save to the list people with mental illness who, costs overall. One recent analysis was con- thanks to the closing of many specialist fa- ducted at St George Hospital in Sydney and cilities, have nowhere else to go. In Ade- reported in the Australian Health Review last laide, in at least two of our major hospitals, year. It found the cost difference favouring we have a policy of employing security midwifery care of $2,579 versus $3,483. guards, one on one, for mental health pa- That is a saving of almost a thousand dollars tients who have to wait in casualty. On occa- per birth. The evidence in New Zealand and sions this wait can be not a few hours but in South Australia’s program in the northern days, because of the shortage of mental suburbs and in Fremantle in Western Austra- health staff and mental health beds. People in lia’s midwifery program all back this up: crisis suffering psychotic episodes have en- giving women choice actually saves money. tered our hospitals and ended up having Moving on to the Pharmaceutical Benefits bones broken by those unqualified people Scheme, the PBS: cutting money from the employed to restrain them: they may be PBS across the board just to save money is qualified to act as bouncers in nightclubs, but absolutely counterproductive. To restrict ac- they are certainly not qualified to deal with cess for the sake of saving money is counter- patients in crisis in our hospitals. productive and, indeed, can lead to higher People with disabilities can also find hos- costs to the health budget as a whole. There pitals to be their last resort. For chronic con- are a number of research papers on this, and ditions such as asthma, where coordinated the most recent I have seen is research in the care trials have proved to be so successful, US by Dr Susan Horn. programs to help people to stabilise their However, there are some improvements condition and keep them out of hospital are we can make to our PBS. These need to be underfunded or, indeed, no longer funded at aimed at appropriate prescribing; a cooling- all. Also there is pressure on emergency de- off period before new medications, new partments, because many doctors can no drugs, that are listed become available; and a longer bulk-bill or are not practising after system where a script—with a similar ap- hours. Families simply cannot afford to put pearance to the regular script you get from a $40, $80 or $120 down on the table if they doctor—for other alternatives should be tri- have two or three sick children, and so they aled. About 60 per cent of GP consultations head for emergency. end with a script for medication, and this is There are some new initiatives assisting what the public is generally used to. Let us with this particular issue, but you still look at support doctors, let us help them with the waits of four and five hours just to be seen software they need for their computers, to by a doctor if the condition with which you give scripts that look much the same as those 644 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 currently used but which set out things like with private health insurance chose not to maybe an exercise program, maybe a dietary declare it, not to use it. In Western Australia, regime, maybe some support mechanisms to despite the rebate, the actual public hospital help someone quit smoking. The media cov- admissions, compared with private hospital erage that often goes with the approval of admissions, have increased. new drugs can leave doctors the next day Let us quickly look at what we could do facing someone across the desk who has with $2.5 billion extra in our health system. heard all about this wonderful new drug, We could increase our public hospital wants it and is absolutely sure that it will spending by 10 per cent, directing that into help their condition. But the doctor may have urgently needed infrastructure; that is around absolutely no details on this drug or, at best, about $600 million to $650 million. We perhaps has just received a brochure from the could put the Commonwealth dental program drug company saying how wonderful it is. back; that is $100 million to $120 million. There is no chance for the doctor to get some We could fund nurses working in aged care detail on any adverse side effects, for exam- to the same level that nurses working in hos- ple, and no chance for independent informa- pitals are funded, and helping therefore with tion. some of the shortages in nursing homes; that What we need is a break of perhaps a is around $96 million. We could lift the couple of weeks. Some doctors have recom- Commonwealth spending on indigenous mended they want a break of four to eight health to the same level that the rest of us weeks between the listing of a new drug and enjoy; that is around $200 million. We could the actual prescribing of that drug. We need have a 10 per cent boost in the aged care time to get information out to doctors, simi- budget for respite care, to ensure they have lar to the information now provided to phar- dental programs—and the lack of dental macists and, in particular, to get information support in aged care is leading to things like out to specialists. The National Prescription malnutrition, bedsores and a whole lot of Service has a role to play here, but time is horrific problems—and also for additional what is needed to get the details out. There aged care packages; that is around $300 mil- are some positive things happening in the lion. PBS area, but a lot more has to be done, in- This still leaves us, after you have spent cluding ensuring the availability of sample on all those things, around $1 billion to packs and some limits on the lobbying ac- spend on other services for those Australians tivities of drug company representatives di- who are most in need and, in particular, on rectly to doctors. In some countries, this is more appropriate services that will keep simply not allowed at all. people out of hospital. These include addi- I will move on to the enormous amount of tional support for quality GP services. In this money this government is splurging on the area, I would digress quickly and say we private health insurance rebate. We are now need again to look at how many GPs, how looking at $2.5 billion being flushed down many doctors, we have in this country. I do the insurance black hole for little if any not believe that the official figures are any- benefit either to the public hospital system where near accurate. They are probably that it was supposed to be benefiting or, in- around 15 per cent too low. This, in itself, is deed, in particular, for the sickest in our putting more pressure on doctors working community. Generally, it is helping the well- out there and on hospital waiting rooms. In- off bypass queues and obtain a high-class deed, I do not think that the recent claims of service with lots of frills. Now that is fine. a 4.3 per cent increase in rural GP numbers Anyone who wants this sort of service is can be substantiated; I think they are talking more than welcome to have it, to pay for it; about output, not the number of people on the public should not be subsidising it. Peo- the ground. ple are certainly not reluctant to continue to We must encourage collaborative group use our public hospitals. In Victoria, a survey practice—and that includes nurse practitio- in 2001 showed that more than half of those ners, allied health workers and, where ap- Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 645 propriate, dentists. The general shortage of level, whereby I think there is a far better nurses is causing some difficulty in this area, chance of getting appropriate services. but I applaud the work of the Divisions of I will close by directly challenging the General Practice in coordinating appropriate new health minister, Senator Patterson, to health services. ensure that the coming budget tackles the I turn briefly to the world of cost shifting, waste in our health system and directs re- buck passing and blame shifting. This in- sources to appropriate services. This coming volves the state, territory and Common- budget must be a budget for the long term. wealth governments and it goes on inces- The minister will be judged, in particular, on santly. Much of the inappropriate hospital how her budget impacts on those who are the admissions involve cost shifting. Let us look sickest in our community. at aged care—probably the most well-known Environment: Ranger and Jabiluka area. The Commonwealth is responsible for Uranium Mines aged care. When it does not supply enough services, when there are not enough nursing Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) home beds, people end up in hospitals, and (1.24 p.m.)—I rise this afternoon to discuss that is funded by state or territory govern- as a matter of public interest the recent news ments. A shortage of GPs—again, the Com- of four separate incidents involving the ele- monwealth puts the money in there—means vated levels of contaminants, most notably further pressure on our hospitals which, uranium, at the Ranger and Jabiluka uranium again, are funded by state and territory gov- mines in the Northern Territory. More spe- ernments. Patients are given only a day or cifically, I want to address the delayed re- two worth of medication when leaving hos- porting of these incidents by both the opera- pital—which is from a state funded phar- tor of the mine, Energy Resources Australia, macy—instead of the full course that was and the failure of the Howard government to necessary. The patient is then required to go ensure Kakadu’s protection. off to the doctor, for which there is a bill to The Ranger mine has had more than its the Commonwealth. If a script is required on fair share of environmental woe over its 23 the PBS, there is another bill to the Com- years. According to the Australian Conser- monwealth. This shifts costs from the state to vation Foundation there have been no fewer the Commonwealth. I could probably spend than 110 environmental incidents over this another 15 minutes here just talking about period, ranging from unexplained elevated the cost shifting and buck passing that goes levels of contaminants to spillages, leaks and on. There is an enormous waste of money, breaches of reporting requirements. Ranger, time and effort and enormous pressure is put as most Australians would know, is within on patients, particularly those leaving hospi- the external boundaries of Kakadu National tal who are not well anyway and who are Park, which is Australia’s largest national basically dismissed early. For them to then park and one of only 10 Australian sites in- have to work their way through the Com- scribed on the UNESCO World Heritage monwealth system to get the support they List. Kakadu is actually listed on that world need is absolutely ridiculous. heritage register for both its natural and cul- Given time constraints, I do not have a lot tural values. of time in which to speak on this occasion. I It is therefore imperative that the opera- will take some more opportunities later on to tions of the Ranger mine are placed under go through my suggestions for the restruc- the highest possible scrutiny to ensure that turing of our health system to ensure that we both protect the natural and cultural val- people are actually able to access the appro- ues of Kakadu and thus meet our interna- priate services, not end up in a queue in our tional obligations under the World Heritage public hospitals. This largely involves a re- convention. To this effect in 1978 the Com- gional system of funding our health services, monwealth established the Office of the Su- with a pooling of Commonwealth and state pervising Scientist. It was tasked with the funds and the delivery of services at the local protection of Kakadu’s environment. 646 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

Twenty-four years on, it is now very clear tory government. In his subsequent report, that the procedures in place to ensure Ka- the Supervising Scientist concluded that kadu’s protection are grossly inadequate. The ERA did not comply with its environmental regulatory regime, with the Office of the Su- requirements under the Atomic Energy Act pervising Scientist having an overall watch- section 41 authority. Specifically, the Super- ing brief and with the mining company col- vising Scientist concluded that two environ- lecting its own samples and providing analy- mental requirements were breached, namely, sis, is plainly not working. requirement 3.4, which states that processed Unfortunately, Ranger also has a long water must be totally contained within a history of delayed reporting of environ- closed system; and, requirement 16.1, which mental mismanagement. On 5 November states that the company must directly and 1981 an island appeared in the tailings pond immediately notify the supervising authority, at the mine, radioactive wastes were exposed the supervising scientist, the minister and the and the matter was not reported until 19 No- Northern Land Council of all breaches of any vember. On 23 November that year, the then of these environmental regulations and Northern Territory minister for mines and any—not the ones they choose—mine re- energy closed down Ranger pending further lated event which is of concern to Aborigi- investigations. Four days later, that same nals or the broader public. minister waived the requirement of a two- When the news broke late in May 2000, metre coverage of water over tailings at all this federal government promptly assured the times and Ranger was under way again. But public—somewhat prematurely, though— 20 years on the system is still grossly ineffi- that Kakadu was safe; and they made a brief cient, as evidenced by this month’s reports of show of politely castigating ERA at the time. elevated levels of uranium and subsequent It was in this chamber—in fact, in the Senate delays in reporting by the mining company. on 27 June 2000—that the then Minister for But these events come less than two years Industry, Science and Resources, Senator after a comprehensive review of Ranger op- Minchin, tabled the report of the Supervising erations following a five-month leak of con- Scientist into the tailings leak at Ranger, on taminants from the tailings dam. On the af- behalf of the environment and heritage min- ternoon of 28 April 2000, ERA notified of ister, Senator Hill. Senator Minchin detailed the Office of the Supervising Scientist and the recommendations of the Supervising Sci- other so-called stakeholders although not entist, addressed each and reassured this par- including the Mirrar, who are the traditional liament that they would be implemented. In owners. They were not informed until media fact a press release from Senator Hill at the reports of 3 May 2000 hit the headlines. time said this: ERA notified that approximately 2,000 cubic We will take the necessary action to extend the metres of tailings water had leaked from a statutory environmental monitoring program to pipe in the tailings dam corridor at the provide an additional early warning capability. Ranger site between late December 1999 and Senator Hill went on to say that Senator 5 April 2000. Subsequently the company Minchin’s support of the recommendation revealed that it had suppressed this informa- was vital to ensure that the changes required tion for over one month before releasing de- were delivered. After that, though, the How- tails to the Australian Stock Exchange. ard government, including both the industry Of course, it is now known that ERA and the environment ministers, simply forgot knew exactly how high the levels of manga- all about it. As current events have shown, nese were in the area around the mine site as the federal government and its agencies have early as December 1999. In failing to report clearly failed in their duty to protect Kakadu this accident, ERA was in breach of envi- from the threats posed by uranium mining— ronmental requirements and the working because it has happened again. The news of arrangements outlined in the memorandum this year’s incidents and the subsequent re- of understanding between the Common- porting delay gives the lie to the govern- wealth government and the Northern Terri- ment’s assurances. Once again the Australian Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 647 people have been let down. The environment The date of this dumping has not yet been of Kakadu National Park and the Mirrar tra- ascertained. The ore was watered by rain, ditional owners have been let down by this and a turbid run-off commenced entering government. The World Heritage status of Corridor Creek to the south of the mine site. Kakadu has been tarnished once again by Of course, with continual rainfall, most of this government’s abrogation of its responsi- the contaminant run-off bypassed the wet- bility. land filters in the Corridor Creek catchment In his June 2000 report the Supervising and ran straight down the creek. In addition, Scientist made 17 recommendations, four of the problem was exacerbated by incorrectly which, I believe, have clearly not been im- flowing run-off from a drain of another plemented. Recommendation 4 was that stockpile. Under the mine management plan, ERA provide for training to ensure its em- this water should flow to retention pond 2 ployees appreciated the need to inform su- and, therefore, remain there prior to filtra- pervisors of any events which could be of tion. Instead, it added to the contamination concern to local Aboriginal people or the from the incorrectly placed ore. broader community. Another recommenda- Extraordinarily high levels of uranium in tion was that ERA should ‘upgrade the envi- the Corridor Creek catchment were also re- ronmental protection staff structure at Jabiru’ corded in early January by ERA, but no ac- to ensure that the company has ‘the on site tion was triggered and no report made to the ability to effectively identify, interpret and stakeholders. It was not until 20 February rectify environmental incidents’. Recom- this year that ERA commenced an investiga- mendation 9 was that statutory monitoring be tion into the source of the elevated levels. extended to ‘enhance its capacity to provide ERA’s investigation revealed, in fact, the early warning of unplanned releases of con- incorrect placement of ore. They even said in taminants’. If these recommendations had their report: been implemented—and, clearly, one would ... small laterite plumes from the toe of the stock- assume that they have been; if they have not pile, flowing west to the drain running to the Cor- been, that is another serious matter for this ridor system. parliament to consider—then the likelihood ERA have now capped the incorrectly placed is that these recent events would not have stockpile, redirected the drains and intro- taken place, and certainly not the delay in duced more frequent monitoring in the reporting. Ensuring ERA’s adherence to the catchment. But how did it happen? How recommendations was the sole responsibility could such a serious blunder occur and go of this federal government, and it has plainly unnoticed and unreported? Has this company failed to meet that responsibility. learnt nothing from its 1999-2000 experi- Several weeks ago, on the afternoon of 27 ence? More importantly, why hasn’t the February, the Gundjehmi Aboriginal Corpo- Commonwealth government introduced ration was informed that, a day earlier, ERA measures to ensure that this could not happen had notified individual members of the Alli- again? Just how effective is the monitoring gator Rivers Region Technical Committee— and reporting system that has been put in not the whole committee as it sat in session, place by this company and the Office of the which is worthy of note, but individual Supervising Scientist? members—that an incident had occurred at There is actually a three-tiered water the Ranger mine, involving the incorrect monitoring system that comprises ‘focus, stockpiling of uranium ore. While details action and limit’—too complicated to ex- remain sketchy at this point—which is, in plain for the purposes of this parliament to- itself, an indictment—it appears that ERA day. What should be known is that in the incorrectly dumped grade 2 ore into a rain- series of incidents that happened several water sheeting area designed solely to run weeks ago one of the levels actually reached rainwater offsite and down the adjacent Cor- the second stage, which is ‘action’, and that ridor Creek, which feeds directly into the means that the company must immediately Magela wetlands. inform all stakeholders, including the Super- 648 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 vising Scientist, the NLC and the Northern and broken commitments. So how can the Territory government. But by 7 January ERA Australian people, and more particularly the knew that the sample collected on 2 January traditional owners of Ranger, trust a gov- showed that the action level had been ernment that so blatantly abrogates its do- reached yet it failed to report the matter until mestic and international responsibilities to some five weeks later. In not reporting hav- protect Kakadu? ing reached action level, the company has The Mirrar people and the broader Aus- again breached its environmental require- tralian public deserve that the truth be told ments. But what has this government done? about what happened at Ranger and Jabiluka Has the minister even issued a formal state- to cause these environmental threats and ment? Has he said anything? No, he has not. subsequent secrecy. How did it happen and Has the Supervising Scientist been directed why? Why does it continue to happen? What to prepare a report or a review? We would measures will now be put in place to ensure not know. Sadly, typically, this government that this is not a growing trend? In the Aus- is quiet. The silence from the minister’s of- tralian newspaper on 7 March last week, the fice is deafening. Gundjehmi Aboriginal Corporation called Unlike the stunned minister, bunkered be- for action to be taken. (Time expired) hind his minders, this party knows precisely Judiciary: Discretion what must be done. To ensure adequate scru- tiny of what now appears to be a consistently Senator COONEY (Victoria) (1.39 failing system of monitoring and reporting in p.m.)—I want to talk in this MPI debate the Australian uranium mining industry, about a speech made here last night by there needs to be a full and frank independ- Senator Heffernan because I think it is a ent inquiry into exactly what is happening in speech that goes very much to the heart of these mines and what is happening with the the sort of system which we operate under; monitoring and reporting requirements of that is, a democratic system in which there this government to the Australian parliament are three branches of government. There is and to the Australian people. The supervising the parliament, which Senator Heffernan scientist cited two reasons ERA had given by employed last night to put forward matters in way of explaining the fact that they had which he believed and, I have no doubt, be- breached two environmental requirements. lieved in sincerely; there is the executive, which administers the law; and there is the Firstly, they said: judiciary, which interprets the law. This is a ... recent changes in staffing at Ranger have re- concept that is traditional and which has sulted in the absence of a senior scientist with the been stated in this chamber on many occa- ability to effectively identify, interpret and rectify environmental incidents. sions. Government is absolutely essential to this society, and it is proper that those three Secondly, they said: arms of government show the appropriate There is a lack of recognition by the Ranger respect for each other. In other words, we are Management Team of the needs and expectations not going to get the sort of government we of stakeholders that resulted in emphasis being want in this country if there is not a respect placed on the absence of environmental impact between the three arms of government. That rather than the issue of whether or not the inci- dent would be of concern to Aboriginal people. is particularly so in terms of the judiciary because it is a body that is dedicated to the So ERA have blamed staffing and cultural doing of justice in this community. ignorance within their organisation. This is an admission of an endemic problem, yet If the beliefs that Senator Heffernan spoke again this federal government has ignored it, to last night are true, there is a disastrous washed its hands of its responsibility. ERA situation in the judicial arm of government in appear to have learnt nothing from June 2000 this country, and it is a matter of great and and because of Commonwealth negligence grievous concern. Because it is a matter of we are presented again with delayed report- such importance, a matter that goes to the ing, breaches of environmental requirements fundamental wellbeing of this society, then the belief that Senator Heffernan spoke to is Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 649 a belief that must be founded very solidly on justice should stay on in his or her office. It fact before it is published. Because you be- is because of that that the reputation of a lieve something, it does not make it true. judge, as with the reputation of everybody in Given the importance of this issue—and it is this chamber, should be preserved unless it to be expected from anybody who uses the deserves to be lost. A person should not be facilities of this chamber as they can be traduced unless that evidence is there. used—it is essential that that person is abso- Senator Heffernan, who made this speech, lutely sure of his facts, not only in his own has the conviction that what he said is cor- mind but also on the basis of the evidence rect. But that is not the test. A conviction that should underpin such a belief before he does not make for truth. Evidence makes for proceeds. Last night, Senator Heffernan truth. A speech like this, with great respect to quoted Chief Justice Murray Gleeson, who Senator Heffernan, should not be made un- said: less there is evidence not only that the sena- Judicial power ... is held on trust. It is an ex- tor possesses but that the senator can show to press trust, the conditions of which are stated in the community in a convincing fashion. It is the commission of a judge or magistrate, and the not appropriate in a matter like this to get up terms of the judicial oath. and say, ‘I have the evidence’ or else ‘I’ve That is true, and Senator Heffernan went on been denied the evidence and I’m sure if I to quote other parts of the speech. What the got the evidence I’d be able to prove what I Chief Justice said in that speech is absolutely have to say.’ That is not the approach that true, and the parts that Senator Heffernan should be taken. The approach that should be quoted are absolutely true. But just as judi- taken is to say, ‘Here is the evidence; here is cial power is held on trust, so is parliamen- the convincing evidence, which I now pro- tary power held on trust. In here we have the duce.’ ability to speak with absolute privilege. That The appropriate thing to do is to give this is an ability that we should use but we should evidence to the appropriate authorities so use it only in the most responsible way be- that they may take the appropriate action. If cause it is a power that is held on trust. the judge is unworthy of his office, then he Senator Heffernan in his speech addressed or she must be removed, and that must be a series of matters. He says that he has evi- done by the proper processes, which is dence of the matters which he speaks to. The through the federal parliament of this nation. matters he speaks to are matters of the grav- Unless that can be done, an attack should not est kind. Those matters, if they are going to be made on a justice of the High Court of be advanced here, must be advanced only on Australia, which has a reputation around the the basis of the most convincing of evidence world as one of the great common law because they are matters that go to the integ- courts, filled by people with great ability and rity of government in this country and, after integrity. that, to the integrity of a judge’s reputation. Where an attack is made on the system in So there are two matters. The first relates the way I have explained, somebody should to the system itself, which must be preserved get up and state the sorts of things that I am no matter what. The integrity of the sys- stating as soon as possible. We have heard tem—the parliament, the government and the the speech by Senator Heffernan and the judiciary—must be preserved no matter statement by the judge that this is false, that what. But beyond that, every person is enti- there is nothing to it, and those two issues tled to his reputation. We have here a judge should be put forward in this chamber as who has been identified as Justice Kirby. He soon as possible, and that is why I am mak- is a person who, until this time, has had the ing this speech now. highest reputation—the sort of reputation I was able to be included on the speakers that every judge of the High Court has and list today because Senator Mackay removed the sort of reputation that every judge of the her name from the list, and I thank her for High Court must have. If that reputation is to doing so. I rang Senator Heffernan’s office a be justifiably lost, then it is not right that that short time ago when it became apparent that 650 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

I would be able to speak during this debate to Treaties. It has produced a significant tell him that I would be making this speech. amount of interest in the law profession and He was not in his office. I apologise for not elsewhere. The area of law that I refer to, contacting him earlier but I thought that my extradition law, is a vexed area. If we go to chances of speaking during this debate today the review by the treaties committee, which were slim. In any event, I have taken the op- helps to explain the genesis of its report, we portunity to make these remarks. find that it began with Konrad Kalejs. Some In this world we must always hope that people may recall that unfortunate incident the right thing will be done. We must hope and that unfortunate gentleman. that people have integrity. We must hope that Mr Kalejs was being sought by the Latvi- people are as they appear. Justice Kirby does ans because they did not have an extradition appear as a great judge, as a person who has treaty with Australia at the time. Although contributed greatly to this nation—through the Latvian authorities may have sought Mr the Law Reform Commission and his work Kalejs for a range of reasons that are not on two courts, through the various papers relevant today, the difficulty for Australia that he has produced, the lectures he has was that we could not extradite him because given and the work he has done generally. we did not have an extradition treaty. So the He has built up that reputation, and it is issue of an extradition treaty effectively comparable to the reputation of the other came before the joint treaties committee. judges on the High Court. That reputation What was important, however, was not so has been traduced by somebody who has a much that, but what it highlighted. It high- great belief in what he says, but I keep re- lighted a very interesting set of issues. peating this point: it is absolutely essential to The extradition law was last significantly the way this society works that that conclu- amended in 1988, giving us the present ex- sion which has been reached should only be tradition law. The most significant change reached after the most anguished of consid- coming from that amendment was the default eration and only on the basis of the most option for any new treaty. This has been la- convincing evidence; otherwise the whole belled as the ‘no-evidence’ model. The system gets out of skew. It is too easy to committee had not found favour with this make a statement, to let that fly into the pub- model. It was effectively as it was de- lic domain and to do all sorts of harm be- scribed—a no-evidence model; you did not cause of that. require evidence. The report provides a glos- As I said before, if all of this were true, sary and the no-evidence model states: ‘in an that would be a dreadful thing and something extradition treaty the model whereby a ought to happen. But this sort of statement country requesting extradition must provide should not be made, because of the fearful a statement that sets out the alleged conduct consequences, unless there are grave grounds constituted in the offence but need not pro- for that happening. Neither the system nor vide any evidence in support of the offence, the community should be affected in the way such as the statement of witnesses’ and so that it is by this, nor should the reputation of forth, which we find in our common law a person who, until this time, has had the country. That is not to say that it is not a highest reputation. There seems to be no rea- practical way of dealing with this area. How- son at this stage why he should not continue ever, from time to time the issue should be to hold that reputation. looked at, and should be looked at critically. Extradition Law Australia at this time has no particular or Senator LUDWIG (Queensland) (1.52 pressing issues in respect of extradition and p.m.)—I rise to follow a theme touched on it is thus time that we should have another by Senator Cooney. It is a broader theme in look at our extradition laws. The committee the sense that it goes to the review of Aus- concluded the same. The committee did not tralia’s law and policy on extradition. This is recommend that the no-evidence rule not be an important area, which has attracted the used, as it has been used reasonably success- attention of the Joint Standing Committee on fully since 1988. It decided not to say that it Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 651 should be withdrawn or put in jeopardy. It on prima facie evidence, to be used in deter- came to the practical point of view that now mining whether a person should be extra- is the time to have another look at it. To that dited. We have the civil law no-evidence effect, the committee recommended that the model. In the US they have a different model Attorney-General refer the matter to the again. So right across the globe we have Australian Law Reform Commission to in- various levels of proof a requesting country quire into it further. It is a matter the Attor- needs to provide in order for extradition to ney-General needs to weigh up. A balance take place. We think it is time this matter was must be struck between the rights of the looked at once again. state, that is, the Commonwealth, and the QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE rights of individuals within that state. That should be, in essence, the focus of the issue. Lucas Heights: Nuclear Reactor There is no question that crimes should be Senator CARR (2.00 p.m.)—My question punished and criminals should not be able to is to Senator Alston, representing the Minis- skip town to avoid justice—and this also ter for Education, Science and Training. On applies in the international setting. However, what basis did the CEO of the Australian that does not mean that individuals should Nuclear Science and Technology Organisa- not have the protection of the law when tion, Professor Helen Garnett, provide assur- faced with allegations of criminal activity. ances to the Senate estimates committee on Extradition law is the fulcrum that attempts 21 February 2002 with regard to the Argen- to balance these competing issues. tinean company INVAP that was contracted Extradition is the formal surrender by one to construct the new nuclear reactor at Lucas state at the request of another state of a per- Heights, namely, that INVAP is not under- son who has been accused or convicted of a written by its government in any way? On crime committed within the requesting what basis did the Minister for Education, state’s jurisdiction. It is based primarily on Science and Training, Dr Brendan Nelson, treaties or arrangements between the states. make the following statement to the journal It is helpful, perhaps, to outline the process. Australasian Science on March 2002: It goes something like this: a requesting INVAP’s activities under the contract are fully country provides the request. There is a pro- funded by the contract payments and are therefore visional arrest warrant. The person who is not dependent on cash flow from the Argentinean served with that is remanded in custody un- government. less there are particularly special circum- Senator ALSTON—I do not have precise stances and a formal extradition request then details of the basis on which those statements follows. A hearing before a magistrate is were made, but I presume they were made on then undertaken and, once found eligible, the advice provided and made in good faith, as surrender will proceed. There is no determi- they should have been. I will therefore make nation of guilt at that point. It is almost an further inquiries and see if we can provide administrative process that the magistrate is Senator Carr with any further information. said to go through. The magistrate is not de- Senator CARR—Madam Deputy Presi- termining whether the person is guilty or dent, I ask a supplementary question. I ask innocent of the charge but whether the per- Senator Alston if he could also establish on son is eligible for surrender. Of course, the what basis the government has sought to un- Attorney-General can decide whether the dertake due diligence over the financial ex- person should be surrendered to a foreign posure of INVAP to the Argentinean finan- country. cial crisis. Has the government satisfied itself So the nub of the issue, in effect, is that in that reports that INVAP has sought $10 mil- Australia we have a range of different proc- lion from the Argentinean government to esses that apply concurrently. We have ar- stay afloat are untrue? Is the government rangements with Commonwealth countries aware that on 1 March this year the Argen- which provide common law rights which tinean budget papers indicated that a loan of allow the standard of proof, which is based 12 million pesos has been extended to INVAP? What will be the impact on the fi- 652 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 nancial obligations of the Australian gov- This is compared to the 13 years of Labor ernment in relation to the $290 million con- when real wages actually fell by 5.2 per cent. tract for the new reactor if the Argentinean Quite clearly, the latest announcement in government cannot prop up INVAP with the relation to the annualised growth rate for $10 million that the company is now seek- GDP of 4.1 per cent is very much a function ing? of the degree of productivity in the work Senator ALSTON—I am advised that the force which again comes about through more Argentinean government has put in place a flexible workplace arrangements. Once $10.5 million facility, a repayable draw- again, the Labor Party has learnt nothing down for INVAP, which is quite clearly a from the last three elections. They know that demonstration that the Argentinean govern- Mr Blair did the hard yards: he was prepared ment believes in the ANSTO project. It is a to distance himself from the trade union reflection of the fact that INVAP is in an en- movement, he was prepared to stand up for vironment in which there are very consider- ordinary workers, he was interested in out- able financial difficulties being experienced comes, he was interested in looking after real by any company operating out of Argentina. workers—not workers’ representatives. As a The provision of that facility does not imply result, he has made considerable progress, that INVAP is incapable of meeting its con- not the least of all political progress. tractual obligations in relation to the re- Those on the other side of the chamber placement research reactor but simply that simply wallow in the mire. They are not pre- the Argentinean government is prepared to pared to make any changes because they provide that degree of comfort. INVAP has know their jobs depend on it. That is the met every milestone on schedule since the tragedy of all this. When Mr Crean goes out contract was awarded and it has already there and says he wants to make a few completed the bulk of the design work for changes, Senator Hutchins pulls him into the project. line. When the ACTU decides that it wants Workplace Relations: Reform to orchestrate a media charade a couple of Senator SCULLION (2.03 p.m.)—My days before the election, because they have question is to the Minister for Communica- already tried to line up bidders for the failed tions, Information Technology and the Arts, Ansett business, they orchestrated every- Senator Alston. Will the minister inform the thing: they sacked the administrator, they did Senate of new measures introduced by the everything possible to ensure that they con- government to further reform Australia’s trolled the outcome. What did we get? An workplace relations system, particularly to absolute disaster. Now, rising from the ashes, curtail unwarranted trade union influence we get a proposal that does offer very con- and enshrine the fundamental principle of siderable promise. It offers at least a thou- freedom of association? Is the minister aware sand jobs that were not there yesterday. What of any alternative proposals in this area that has been the response? We have the TWU are worthy of consideration? saying, ‘This thug Corrigan, we’re going to be keeping an eye on him.’ Who represents Senator ALSTON—The government has their interests in this parliament? Senator introduced a package of five measures since Conroy and Senator Hutchins. Why are they the election which are designed to protect not out there? those very important principles that Senator Scullion referred to and which, one would Senator Conroy—Sorry? have thought, were universally supported in Senator ALSTON—I am sorry you are the Australian community. The fact is that asleep at the wheel. I know you are not well they build on a package of measures that we enough paid. Senator Conroy ought to be have introduced into this chamber and this acutely aware that this is all about trying to parliament over recent years and, as a result salvage something from the ACTU-inspired of that, real wages of low-paid award work- wreckage of Tesna. That is what it is about. ers are increasing by more than nine per cent. It is trying to get a bit of competition into the airline industry. Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 653

Who is interested in competition in the cated that he wants all of the facts before airline industry? Not the Labor Party. Who is him. I do not know exactly when that report interested in rescuing the jobs of at least will be presented to the Prime Minister. He 1,000—and there were maybe 4,000 or 5,000 has asked for it; I do not think that he has that you professed to be interested in when given a date for it. The important thing is you were backing the Tesna consortium? that the money that was committed in the Senator Forshaw—You did nothing. agreement between the RACGP and the gov- ernment has not gone to the RACGP. There Senator ALSTON—But, no, all you can were very stringent requirements placed on think of doing is trying to undermine Mr the RACGP. The message needs to go out Corrigan because you do not like his politics. very loudly, very clearly, and I have said it You do not like the fact that he increased two or three times in this chamber, that the crane rates from about 15 to 25. RACGP has not had the money—unlike the Senator Conroy—He pocketed all of the Labor Party with the money from the Aus- money. tralian National Audit Office. Senator ALSTON—There we go: the The RACGP has not had the money. There politics of envy. are very strict conditions on the agreement: Senator Conroy interjecting— they must be co-located with the Australian The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order, Divisions of General Practice and one other Senator Conroy! peak body. They have not had the money. I will say it again just in case people on the Senator ALSTON—It is a tragedy. You other side of the chamber are listening to the are not interested in outcomes, you are not other house and not listening to me: the interested in whether there is increased pro- RACGP has not had the money. That is clear. ductivity for the workforce and you are not You have got the message. The Prime Min- interested in whether Australia is prospering; ister has said, and he said again on radio to- you are simply interested in who made a day on Radio 5DN, that he holds open the quid on the side. That is what it is about, possibility that we will not make the contri- isn’t it? bution to that organisation. That possibility The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator has been held open and has been repeated by Alston, address the chair please. the Prime Minister; having said it in the Senator ALSTON—You are not inter- chamber, he has repeated it again today. The ested in the welfare of the workers; you are money committed to the specialist outreach interested in being envious of people who program and the money committed to the make a commission. (Time expired) asthma program will be there in full, not a Health: Program Funding penny less will be spent on it. That is the message. I will get up here and repeat it over Senator SCHACHT (2.08 p.m.)—My and over again, as I have done every time I question is to Senator Patterson, the Minister am asked this question. I have said over and for Health and Ageing. When will be de- over again that the RACGP has not had the partmental report into the diversion of health money and the $5 million will be directed to program funding into the construction of GP the program. House be completed? Will the full contents of the report be made public, and will this Senator SCHACHT—Madam Deputy occur before parliament rises at the end of President, I ask a supplementary question. next week? Will the report contain details of Has the minister had any contact with former how the former minister could possibly have Minister Wooldridge since last Sunday in known three months into the financial year relation to the issue of Commonwealth that the asthma and rural health programs funding of the Australian College of General would be underspent nine months down the Practitioners building? If so, when was that track? contact, what was the nature of the contact and who initiated the contact: Dr Wooldridge Senator PATTERSON—The Prime or you, Minister? Minister has called for a report. He has indi- 654 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

Senator PATTERSON—I have not spo- One important aspect of the report high- ken to Dr Wooldridge since last Sunday. I do lighted the success that Australia is having in not know when I last spoke to him; it could dealing with drug interdiction overseas. The have been two or three weeks ago. I have not report says: spoken to Dr Wooldridge in the last week to The effect of Commonwealth law enforcement two weeks. operations offshore has been significant. Drugs: Strategies It is with this in mind that the Howard gov- Senator TCHEN (2.11 p.m.)—My ques- ernment pledged an extra $47 million over tion is to the Minister for Justice and Cus- four years for the law enforcement coopera- toms, Senator Ellison. Will the minister in- tive program, which is the overseas program form the Senate on how the Howard gov- of the Australian Federal Police in its fight ernment’s Tough on Drugs policy is assisting against transnational crime and, in particular, Australia’s law enforcement agencies in the fight against illicit drug trafficking. This protecting Australian children from illicit is an essential part of law enforcement’s fight drugs? against drug trafficking internationally and, Senator ELLISON—Thank you, Senator importantly, against importation into Austra- Tchen, for what is a very important question. lia. We also announced an extension of our Yesterday, with Commissioner Mal Hyde of Tough on Drugs policy. This is a policy the South Australian Police, I launched the which fights the war against drugs on three Australian Bureau of Criminal Intelligence fronts: law enforcement, education and annual illicit drug report for the year 2000- health. 01. This report is a comprehensive one It is only in an environment of reduced which is respected internationally and which supply that we can treat addicts and that we is regarded as an effective tool in crime can educate young Australians against the fighting in relation to illicit drugs. That re- dangers of drugs. That is why it is important port outlines the progress that is being made to have a strong law enforcement role. We by law enforcement in Australia in the fight are extending our $516 million commitment against drugs and, in particular, the successes to Tough on Drugs with the election promise which have been made in reducing the sup- of $109 million devoted to partnerships with ply of heroin in this country. In fact, it community programs dealing with drug re- pointed to a reduction in the supply of heroin habilitation and educational programs. Im- during that period of time despite the fact of portantly, we will also extend the National an increase of 17 per cent in the production Heroin Signature Program to deal with am- of opium in Burma. phetamines and cocaine, which are the Of course, the government is not compla- emerging threats that I mentioned. cent. This report also outlines other threats It is of concern that there is an emerging which are emerging in Australia in relation threat of bikie gangs across Australia who to illicit drugs such as cocaine and ampheta- are engaged in unlawful activity, dealing mines. The problem in relation to ampheta- particularly with the supply of ampheta- mines is that they not only are imported but mines. This is of concern and is being dealt can be manufactured locally, and that poses with at state and Commonwealth levels. This an even greater challenge for law enforce- government has a firm plan in relation to the ment in Australia. It is only with the coop- fight against illicit drugs. The Tough on erative efforts of law enforcement at a Drugs strategy is having success, but we are Commonwealth, state and territory level that not complacent. There is still a long way to we can combat this new threat. I am pleased go. The aspect of Senator Tchen’s question to say that Commissioner Hyde in his ad- which dealt with alternatives is a very im- dress yesterday outlined measures by Aus- portant one, because the opposition need to tralian law enforcement which are aimed at look at the policy that they put forward—a dealing with this. policy which was thin on law enforcement, a policy which was thin on education, a policy which copied existing health programs, a Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 655 policy which offered no new direction in too much paperwork. It is hard to get a bal- relation to the fight against drugs. This is an ance in a Commonwealth funded facility important issue and one that the Howard between ensuring that people achieve stan- government remains totally committed to. dards and ensuring that what we ask to be This Tough on Drugs strategy will continue done is done and is recorded. When Labor to fight the war against drugs on the fronts of were in government, there were people run- health, education and law enforcement. I ning nursing homes and there was a lack of commend the ABCI report to the Senate, and information. I have always given credit I commend it to law enforcement agencies where it is due: Labor did make some re- around Australia and internationally. (Time forms, especially to hostels, but they failed to expired) carry it through to nursing homes. There Aged Care: Policy were changes to hostels which were im- provements, but they were not able to carry it Senator CROSSIN (2.16 p.m.)—My through to nursing homes. question is to Senator Patterson, representing the Minister for Ageing. Senator, what action We have seen incredible changes in the does the government propose to take to re- standards in nursing homes. Minister An- duce the paperwork burden directly brought drews and I have discussed this issue, and I about by the Howard government’s intro- know that he is looking at it very carefully, duction of the resident classification scale, but it is a very difficult balance to achieve to which has created an additional four million ensure that we have accountability for very hours of paperwork for aged care staff every large amounts of Commonwealth funding. year? Senator CROSSIN—Madam President, I Senator PATTERSON—It is interesting ask a supplementary question. Minister, my to me that Labor seem to have taken an in- question went to excessive paperwork—in terest in aged care. When I was shadow excess of four million hours per year. My minister, I went out to various aged care fa- supplementary question is: why has the gov- cilities and saw some of the disastrous situa- ernment tied trained aged care staff to the tions and noted the fact that we required a desk instead of allowing them to provide large number of facilities. The Gregory re- high quality care to the vulnerable and the port indicated that standards had not been elderly? Isn’t it a fact that 63 per cent of reached in nursing homes, that there were nurses surveyed by the Australian Nursing insufficient nursing homes, that there was a Federation nominated excessive documenta- lack of capital funding, and that there were tion as one of the primary reasons why they not appropriate accreditation or certification did not want to work in, or had ceased standards. The coalition felt that work working in, aged care, with the result being needed to be done to ensure that older people an estimated shortage of 5,000 qualified within our community were cared for in an nurses in the sector? Given that the Howard appropriate manner. Some of the nursing government belatedly acted to address small homes that I visited when I was shadow business anger towards the BAS, why hasn’t minister were, I thought, totally unacceptable the government also acted to remove the pa- in Australia. perwork burden on aged care staff and to free them up to do what they do best: provide During the term of the Howard govern- quality care to residents? ment, we have put in place accreditation pro- cesses which mean that we have raised the Senator PATTERSON—As I have said standards of nursing homes. I admit that before, each service has to have appropriate there has been some concern, and it has been records of the care needs of each individual. expressed to me by people working in nurs- We have to be assured that the services are ing homes, that the paperwork load can de- delivered to them and that we have in place a tract from the work they are undertaking system of documentation that will meet pro- with their residents. But it is very difficult to fessional nursing requirements. get a balance. There was the same complaint, The resident classification scale industry when I was shadow minister, that there was liaison group has been exploring ways to 656 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 assist the industry to apply the RCS appro- However, we are conscious of previous priately. Minister Andrews is currently con- strong criticisms from state governments and sidering the release of a video to assist in- the non-government sector, and amendments dustry to streamline documentation, and he is to Commonwealth legislation with far- addressing it assiduously to ensure that it is ranging implications for those authorities not too onerous. But we always have to re- which at least have constitutional responsi- member that we must have accountability in bility for schools are matters that I think we a system where we require standards to be would want to tread lightly on in the first met and that we are not funding facilities that instance. It is the intention of the Minister for are below standard. Education, Science and Training, Dr Nelson, Education: Protection of Children to write to state ministers and representatives of the National Catholic Education Commis- Senator ALLISON (2.21 p.m.)—My sion and the National Council of Independ- question is to the minister representing the ent Schools to further explore the matter. I minister for schools. Can the minister ex- think at this stage we are more interested in plain why there is still no national approach whether the states themselves can come up to protecting children from physical and sex- with a solution rather than rushing in to im- ual abuse in schools? pose a nationally mandated approach. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Is there a Senator ALLISON—Madam President, I minister for schools? Senator Alston, are you ask a supplementary question. I thank the going to take questions on education? minister for his answer. Is the minister aware Senator ALSTON—In the absence of that each state has different laws with regard any other volunteers, I suppose I will, to mandatory reporting of abuse by teachers Madam Deputy President. and principals? In fact, Western Australia has Senator Robert Ray interjecting— no such requirement and Queensland is not Senator ALSTON—I remember the days much better. Is he aware that many schools in the East End of London, teaching on a in the private sector have no established supply basis, so my qualifications are impec- protocols or processes in place for dealing cable. I know that you did a bit of teaching with child abuse? Is it not the case that on the side, Senator Ray, in between taxi MCEETYA’s process to expose paedophiles rides. in schools has achieved nothing since it was raised over five years ago? Is it not time, The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Address Minister, that the federal government had a the chair, please, Senator Alston, and we will proactive strategy on this issue? have fewer interjections. Senator Ray, there is no need to reminisce with Senator Alston. Senator ALSTON—We do have a strat- egy on the issue, and that is to try to ensure Senator ALSTON—I have to say, after that the states do harmonise to the greatest that very big introduction, the answer is extent possible to explore areas where there probably not of the same magnitude. I under- might be particular shortcomings. If Western stand that the Democrats have foreshadowed Australia does not have any approach at all, an amendment to legislation that is coming clearly that is a glaring deficiency which up shortly to put in place arrangements for pressure from the federal minister might as- government and non-government schools to sist in resolving. But, at this stage, I think it have certain mandatory arrangements in is premature to argue that the states are not place. Certainly the government is strongly interested in the subject, that somehow they supportive of the principle of schools as safe are— learning environments—a principle which was set out in the National Goals for Senator Stott Despoja—The federal gov- Schooling in the 21st Century and which all ernment is not interested. government and non-government authorities Senator ALSTON—The mere fact that are committed to. you have differences between approaches does not tell me that there is, ipso facto, a need for Commonwealth intervention. There Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 657 may well be local factors that justify that. Senator Abetz—During Senator George There may be different institutional struc- Campbell’s question you quite properly in- tures that allow for that. By writing to those terrupted him about not referring to a minis- state authorities, I think Dr Nelson will be in ter in the other place by the appropriate title. a much better position to judge whether there I would invite you, Madam Deputy Presi- is a need for further Commonwealth action. dent, to require Senator George Campbell to Superannuation Complaints Tribunal: do so. Appointments The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—There is Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL (2.25 no point of order. p.m.)—My question is to Senator Coonan, Senator Abetz—Well, why did you inter- the Assistant Treasurer. Is the Assistant rupt? Treasurer aware that, on 3 October last year, The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I was re- her old friend Mr Joe Hockey appointed the minding senators of what is correct. I call former Liberal senator and big spending Senator Coonan. diplomat Michael Baume to the Superannua- tion Complaints Tribunal? Senator COONAN—I am astounded at the inference made by Senator Campbell as The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Please re- to the propriety of former Senator Baume fer correctly. being appointed to the Superannuation Com- Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL—Is the plaints Tribunal. I think there are something minister aware that Mr Baume’s appointment like 20 people appointed to the complaints was not one of the appointments requested tribunal. by the tribunal to get through its backlog, Senator Sherry—There are 17. that Mr Baume did not apply through the formal channels and that—as revealed in Senator COONAN—Well, 17. These are Senate estimates last month—his name was part-time appointments— never on the Treasury shortlist of possible Senator Robert Ray interjecting— appointments? Were the tribunal or con- Senator COONAN—Senator Ray, I can sumer groups consulted on Mr Baume’s ap- appreciate how you resent the fact that pointment? Why was Mr Hockey so keen to Senator Baume has this appointment. rush the appointment through, outside the Opposition senators interjecting— proper procedures? The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Abetz—Madam Deputy Presi- Senator Schacht, Senator Cook, Senator dent, I rise on a point of order— Ray— Honourable senators interjecting— Senator Schacht interjecting— The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator Senator Patterson and Senator Faulkner, Schacht, I can still hear you from up here. would you please have a conversation somewhere else. Senator Schacht—I thought you would give me a miss for a while. Senator Patterson—He wasn’t talking. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—No, I am The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—He was not. Your behaviour is disorderly. about to, because you were about to talk to him. I am trying to listen to Senator Abetz Senator Kemp—Throw him out! and I am not doing very well. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator Senator Abetz—Thank you, Madam Coonan has the call. Senator Kemp, you are Deputy President. During Senator Camp- not helping, either. bell’s question, you quite properly inter- Senator COONAN—It is entirely within rupted him. the minister’s power to have appointed for- Senator Ian Campbell—It was Senator mer Senator Baume. There is nothing inap- George Campbell, thank you. propriate in former Senator Baume’s ap- pointment. It reflects very poorly on Senator 658 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

Campbell’s judgment to impugn an appropri- myself, but the advice I am given is that the ate appointment to the tribunal. study makes a mistake in making that asser- Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL— tion. But I will come back to you, if I may, Madam Deputy President, I ask a supple- on that when I have had a look at the basis mentary question. Is the Assistant Treasurer on which it makes it. I think the advice I aware of an article in the Financial Review have is itself based on the statement that of 4 March by Mr Baume in which he de- family tax benefit is not a welfare payment. I fends the government over its lies and de- would probably say in response to that, ception in the ‘children overboard’ affair? ‘Look, that is a moot point whether you call Was Mr Baume writing in his capacity as a it a welfare payment or not,’ but it might be member of the Superannuation Complaints quite relevant to whatever formulas the cen- Tribunal or was he simply returning the gov- tre has used to come to that assessment. So ernment’s favour for his appointment? in a sense I am saying to you: let me have a further look at that report before I give you a Senator COONAN—The initial question final answer on it. asked by Senator George Campbell appeared to relate to the basis upon which former It is important to recognise that family tax Senator Baume was appointed to the Super- benefit is available to people who are on annuation Complaints Tribunal. The supple- what everyone would agree are strictly wel- mentary does not appear to relate at all to the fare payments and to other families. So in original question. Insofar as the supplemen- that sense it is not restricted as a welfare tary could be said to have related to the payment in the same way as others are. Peo- original question, Mr Baume is quite entitled ple on Newstart or the parenting payment to write whatever articles he chooses in his can get it, as Australians in the broader personal capacity. community can. It is a recognition of the costs of bringing up children. Taxation: Families Senator Harradine, you ask about propos- Senator HARRADINE (2.30 p.m.)—My als to acknowledge in the tax thresholds the question is to Senator Vanstone, the Minister number of people who are dependent on that for Family and Community Services. What particular income. I think there is a problem does the government think about the Centre with that proposal, and the problem is that it, for Independent Studies identification that generally speaking, benefits the rich more families with dependent children generally than people on lower income levels. It cer- need to make about twice the average weekly tainly offers no benefit whatsoever to people earnings before they start to rise significantly who are not in a position to be paying tax, above welfare levels? What is the govern- and I think in that sense it could be said to be ment’s position on recommendations from regressive. I believe the family tax benefit is some economic modellers that one way to a much more direct and much fairer and overcome major anomalies in the taxation easier way of doing what some propose to do system which work against families is to through tax thresholds. In my early days in establish tax thresholds based on the number parliament and even before I got in, I was of people actually dependent upon that in- involved, as many women were, in discus- come? Given Australia’s declining fertility sions about income splitting. I think that the rate and the situation of that unfair tax treat- family tax benefit we have provided is a ment of families, what action is the govern- much fairer way of helping families. As you ment considering for the May budget, or would know, it focuses on the income of the even before the May budget, which will pro- family, so it is a variable payment depending vide a more family friendly taxation policy? on the income the family has got. I support Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator that element of the policy because I think Harradine for the question. We all know his people on lower incomes should get more longstanding interest in issues relating to help than people on higher incomes. The families and the income available to them. other aspect is that it varies according to the Can I say that I have not looked at the study number of children in the family, and I sup- Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 659 port that because I think people should get parameters under which intelligence can be assistance based on the number of children collected. DSD is structured to target foreign that are dependent on them. intelligence—that is what it is all about—and We have got a very friendly family tax it has to do so pursuant to the published system. Since the introduction of family tax rules. benefit, which, as we know, maximises There is an ongoing discussion as to choices for families, if averages mean any- whether the previous unpublished set of rules thing I think we can say on average families can be made public. At the moment it is still are $40 better off. I am reluctant to use that, classified, but I am asking whether that clas- though, because it does not highlight how sification can be removed. It seems to me significantly better off lower income families that it is now only of historical interest. The are in a relative sense. In short, I think this additional point that would become apparent system we have introduced is the best sys- is that there are now additional safeguards in tem. It is a better one than some people rec- place in that there are instances where min- ommend by fiddling with tax thresholds be- isterial approval is now needed whereas pre- cause we are able to help all families on a viously, in the same instances, it could sim- range of incomes with a range of number of ply be decided by the officials administering children. the act. The whole trend in recent years has Defence Signals Directorate been to provide for a safer, more transparent process to ensure that the privacy of Austra- Senator CHRIS EVANS (2.35 p.m.)—My lians is not interrupted inadvertently by question is directed to Senator Hill, the somebody acting under the provisions of this Minister for Defence. Can the minister con- regime. firm the simple fact that under the current arrangements governing the DSD there are Senator CHRIS EVANS—Madam Dep- no safeguards on the interception of phone uty President, I ask a supplementary ques- calls between a non-national overseas and an tion. The minister has failed to answer the Australian in Australia? Isn’t it a fact that, particular question I asked him. The infor- while the Intelligence Services Act does pro- mation he provided, while being helpful, is vide protections for the collection of infor- already on the public record. I am after an mation on Australians overseas, it is silent on answer to the question: is it not a fact that the Australians in Australia who communicate act does provide protections for the collec- with non-nationals overseas? Doesn’t this tion of information on Australians overseas represent a significant change from the pre- but is silent on Australians who communi- vious arrangements, where the privacy of cate with non-nationals overseas? I would Australians was protected irrespective of appreciate it if the minister would take that whether they were overseas or in Australia? question on notice and provide an answer, if he is unable to today. He did not address it in Senator HILL—I am surprised by the his response. I would also appreciate it if the question, because the difference between minister could provide any indication of now under this government and the past is when the old rules might be released. That that the rules are now totally transparent was the answer he gave me in estimates— whereas in the past they were not made pub- that he was predisposed to provide those old lic. So we now have a piece of legislation rules—but it is three weeks on and they have and the piece of legislation sets out restraints not been provided. When will you make and it requires rules to be made for the ad- those old rules available? ministration of those restraints. Those rules have been made and are public documents, Senator HILL—I will get a considered and the DSD has to operate within those response, but I am having difficulty under- rules. Furthermore, the application of the standing the question because it is simply a rules is supervised by the independent In- question of interpretation of the law, and the spector-General of Intelligence and Security. law as I read it is that there are very limited A reading of the act, a reading of the rules, circumstances in which an Australian na- will tell anyone in the public what are the tional can be targeted—circumstances such 660 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 as where that person is acting as an agent of they were under Labor. From 20 March, a foreign power. So it is akin to, in effect, adult pensions will be further increased to being a foreign party. The safeguards are adjust payments to the CPI and male total there, as I said, to protect the interests of average weekly earnings. The male total av- Australian citizens. I will seek a considered erage weekly earnings commitment means response and see if that helps Senator Evans that, where wages increase, older Australians further. In relation to the issue of declassifi- share in those improvements in community cation, that is still ongoing and I am awaiting living standards that higher wages deliver by further advice. pension increases. We have legislated to do Pensions and Benefits: Social Security that. Labor promised to legislate but never did. The fact is that the maximum single rate Senator MASON (2.40 p.m.)—My ques- of pension will rise later this month by tion is to the Minister for Family and Com- $11.30 a fortnight, or $421.80, for a full-rate munity Services, Senator Vanstone. Will the single pensioner, and for the maximum part- minister inform the Senate of the reasons for nered pension by $9.50 per fortnight per per- the recent indexation increases to social se- son. These increases clearly demonstrate that curity payments? Will the minister explain the Howard government is continuing to who will benefit most from these increases meet its election commitment to increase and from the government’s ongoing com- pensions for price and wage increases. When mitment to a fairer welfare system? the economy is managed well and everyone Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator else is benefiting, pensioners can benefit as Mason for such a prescient question. The well. Howard government has consistently helped Of course, it was not so important under those people who are more vulnerable. We the previous government. The reason for that have a much better social security system is that real wages fell under the previous than we had when we came to government. government—a strange thing that workers We are working actively to encourage people would be grateful to a union movement that to take up work and to ensure that there are did a deal with the government that put the financial advantages in remaining in em- real wages of low income workers down. ployment so that people do not call on com- Every one of you over there should hang munity resources—that is, give up them- your head in shame that you did that stinking selves—until they really cannot support deal and put the wages of low income work- themselves. We are putting more discretion- ers down. You do not acknowledge the con- ary money in the pockets of households by tribution this government has made by put- good economic management. ting the real wages of low income workers Economic management is not important up. for its own sake; it is important for what it Honourable senators interjecting— does for families and especially for low in- come families. Every day, pretty well, under The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! I the previous government prices increased. would like fewer interjections on my left, Under Labor they increased an average of and less general conversation on my right. 5.2 per cent each year. Under this govern- Senator VANSTONE—Those opposite ment that average is just 2.3 per cent. The may wish it to be different, but the plain facts CPI to December 2000 rose by 1.2 per cent. are that under their stewardship the wages of So delivering a strong economy is very im- low income workers went down and under portant, and we are doing it. We have strong this government’s stewardship they have rises in productivity. That enables us to have gone up. The unemployment rate in January higher real earnings for workers. In 2001 real 2002 was 7.7 per cent down from 10.9 per earnings rose by 2.6 per cent. cent under Labor. Business investment is The important thing for Senator Mason’s growing, machinery and equipment invest- question is that people relying on social se- ment is growing— curity benefits are not left behind, unlike Senator George Campbell interjecting— Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 661

Senator Kemp interjecting— for business and, indeed, for individuals if it Senator Abetz interjecting— relates to a systemic problem. I am not quite sure, Senator Hutchins, what comfort you try The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! to draw from something the Prime Minister Senators George Campbell, Kemp and has said and something I have said, because I Abetz, if you wish to have that conversation, would say that it is entirely consistent. please go outside and have it—desist in the chamber. Senator Vanstone is the only sena- Senator HUTCHINS—Madam Presi- tor with the call at present. dent, I ask a supplementary question. I do not agree with the minister. Given that the Senator VANSTONE—In answer to minister told the estimates committee that Senator Mason, put simply the answer is she is still to work out what the inspector- this: under this government the economy is general will be doing, what then is the status doing well. People with jobs are benefiting of the pre-election promise about the role from that. Real wages are increasing. Things and function of the Inspector-General of are going well, and we want to make sure Taxation made by the Prime Minister? that pensions are not left behind. That is why we have not only indexed them to the CPI Senator COONAN—I can understand but also attached them to MTAWE, and that how Senator Hutchins’s imagination does not is why it is so important that that indexation extend as far as understanding how an in- happens twice a year. (Time expired) spector-general can actually have a role as an advocate for individuals and for business and Inspector-General of Taxation also have a role in looking at systemic diffi- Senator HUTCHINS (2.45 p.m.)—My culties within the tax system—difficulties, I question is to Senator Coonan, the Assistant might add, that you never seemed to address. Treasurer and Minister for Revenue. Can the The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Address minister clarify whether the Inspector- the chair, please. General of Taxation will have an advocacy role on behalf of the business community, as Senator COONAN—Through you, indicated publicly by the Prime Minister on Madam Deputy President, when you had the 19 October last year, or whether, as the min- opportunity to look at the function of the ister stated at estimates on 20 February this Taxation Office, nothing of this kind was year, this advocacy role is still unclear? advocated. I repeat that there is nothing in- consistent between what the Prime Minister Senator COONAN—I thank Senator has said and what I have said. I would rec- Hutchins for the question. It is certainly the ommend to the Senate and to Senator case that the whole of the terms, circum- Hutchins that you wait with baited breath, stances, structure, powers and role of the because you will know very soon when the inspector-general are presently under consid- paper and the proposal is publicly released. eration. I expect very shortly to have a pro- posal to go to the Board of Taxation for pub- Employment: Job Network lic consultation. As to the actual role of the Senator CHERRY (2.49 p.m.)—My inspector-general, I do not see anything in- question is to the Minister for Family and consistent with what the Prime Minister has Community Services. The minister would be said about the role of the inspector-general aware that last week’s Productivity Commis- and what I have so far publicly said about the sion report on the Job Network identified role of the inspector-general. What I have that many job seekers referred by Centrelink said is that there is a role for an agency, an to intensive assistance providers end up be- inspector-general, to look at the systemic ing ‘parked’ with little or no assistance. difficulties within the tax system; to look at Those likely to be parked are those who where, between the points of review between ‘have low likelihood of achieving payable the Ombudsman and the Board of Taxation, outcomes’. Does the minister agree with the there is a role for the inspector-general to commission’s conclusion that better targeting look at these problems. I see nothing incon- and re-referral of job seekers is needed to sistent with that also being an advocacy role eliminate parking? If so, how does the min- 662 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 ister justify imposing case loads as high as simply giving them more money. We are 700 disadvantaged job seekers on the new hoping that it works. The net spend, which is band of Centrelink personal advisers who are just under $1 billion, only happens if it does supposed to assess and help disadvantaged work and we get people into jobs. If it does job seekers. How can personal advisers pro- not work, we are still committed to the $1.7 vide any sort of personalised service to job billion. We will be watching that very seekers with an average time allocation of closely. just three minutes a week? I hope and trust that you agree that a Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator greater focus on the individual is very im- Cherry for the question. Yes, Senator, I have portant in the welfare sector—focusing on seen highlights of the draft report. I have not what their needs are so that we can help them read the whole report at this point. I think get their problems fixed and give them a there have often been allegations of ‘park- better chance of getting a job. I hope you ing’—that people who are the most difficult agree that having personal advisers in Cen- to find a job for are accepted and then per- trelink is a positive move forward, even haps not enough is done for them but the though you may not agree about the number firm gets the minimum payment anyway. of them—and I gather you do not, by the That has been a constant query raised by calculation you have made—and that you some groups. agree with the Personal Support Program, Of course that shows up in the end in the which is an advance on the Community Sup- effectiveness of people who have the con- port Program. There is now not only a larger tracts, and it has a very bit impact on amount of money to help people in that pro- whether they subsequently get another con- gram but a larger number of places as well. I tract. So there is that very strong disincentive will have a thorough look at the recommen- in there for people to do what you rightly dations made by the Productivity Commis- identify and what we understood from the sion when they make their final report, very beginning was something that people which I understand is in June some time, and could do. But we also recognised that, if they if I have anything further to add as a conse- did it and constantly had failed outcomes for quence of that I will come back to you. that group, they would be very unsuccessful Senator CHERRY—I thank the minister in the next round of tenders—or should be. I for her answer, and I ask a supplementary would not have any embarrassment in argu- question. Would it not make more sense to ing a case that a firm should not get another pull funding back from the intensive assis- contract if they had not done well in looking tance providers who are parking clients—and after the most vulnerable when having been there are ways the Productivity Commission paid to do so. has identified where they can get their con- You mention the personal advisers. I think tracts renewed—and put that money into that is a welcome change and a reflection increasing the number of personal advisers that the government has been listening and and increasing the Personal Support Pro- wanting to make a greater investment in in- gram? You have actually increased the dividuals. The personal advisers will be funding for that program by, I think, 60 per there, through Centrelink, to assist the indi- cent and increased the number of clients by viduals and to make sure that what is often 200 per cent, which to me, again in my seen by some who are not in as an advanta- economist’s mind, does not quite add up to geous position as you and me to be a difficult providing that extra, personalised service process to work their way through. Senator that would be needed to ensure that job seek- Cherry, you have worked out some allocation ers get back into the marketplace. I ask the of three minutes a week. I will have a look at minister: will the government ensure that, in that, but I hope you agree in principle with its response to the Productivity Commission the Australians Working Together package, a report, the personalised service the Produc- $1.7 billion commitment by this govern- tivity Commission says is needed and has not ment—which is an investment in people, not Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 663 been delivered enough to date is in fact de- Senator COONAN—I understand where livered? it is in my brief. Senator VANSTONE—We are very Senator Chris Evans—Has Ian Campbell strongly committed to a greater investment given you the brief? in individuals on welfare and a better per- Senator COONAN—No, he hasn’t; I sonalised service than we have at the mo- have got the brief myself. If you stop shout- ment—and I think what we have at the mo- ing, maybe I can give you the answer. ment is very good. Everything can be im- proved. What we have now we believe can The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Address be improved, and that is why we have intro- the chair, please, Senator Coonan, and ignore duced Australians Working Together. I am the interjections. That will cause fewer in- confident that, once we have introduced that, terjections. this government will not give up looking for Senator COONAN—There are some key better ways again. Just as Centrelink has a points from the December quarter current principle of continuous improvement and account, and it is true that the deficit did continually trying to do better, so we have in widen sharply, rising by $3.5 billion to $6.6 the welfare area. I can give you my assur- billion, but that pales into insignificance ance that the government is absolutely com- when you think about a debt of $96 billion mitted to the better delivery of assistance to and a government that has so far had to repay people in need of help to find jobs. $56 billion worth of Labor’s debt. It is an Economy: Current Account Deficit extraordinary thing that those on the other side would even think to raise the current Senator CONROY (2.55 p.m.)—My account deficit, with the kind of wreckage of question is to Senator Coonan, the Minister the economy that Labor wreaked on this for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer. How country. The increase in the current account does the Assistant Treasurer explain the fact deficit reflects the return to a trading deficit that Australia’s current account deficit has following three consecutive quarters of trade more than doubled in the last quarter, to $6.6 surpluses. The $1.3 billion trade deficit in the billion, which is the largest percentage in- December quarter follows a record trade sur- crease in the deficit since 1980, when Mr plus of $1.9 billion in the September quarter. Howard was Treasurer? What are the reve- In volume terms, net exports subtracted 1.5 nue implications to the Commonwealth of percentage points from GDP growth in the this spectacular decline in the current ac- December quarter, and the result reflects the count? effects of weak global demand—obviously Senator COONAN—I do not know those on the other side think that Australia is where Senator Conroy has been living. totally immune from any global effects— Senator George Campbell—Take a point and a sharp fall in tourism on export volumes of order, help her. growth and strong domestic conditions on import volumes growth. Export volumes fell Senator COONAN—Senator Campbell, I by 3.2 per cent in the December quarter 2001 do not know where you are living either. reflecting a fall in service exports, down by Senator Conroy, are you not aware that the 7.1 per cent, and rural exports down by growth rate is 4.1 per cent now? Haven’t you seven per cent. Import volumes grew heard what has happened? strongly following weak growth in recent Senator Sherry—Do you understand quarters— what the current account deficit is? Opposition senators interjecting— The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator Senator COONAN—This is what you Sherry, address the chair. have asked for; you are getting it all. Import Senator COONAN—I understand the volumes rose by 4.4 per cent in the Decem- current account deficit. ber quarter 2001. The increase was broadly Senator Chris Evans—Why don’t you based with increases in capital goods imports open your file up? It’s under C in your brief. up 8.5 per cent, consumption goods imports 664 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 up 4.3 per cent and intermediate goods im- Senator Hill—Madam President, I ask ports up 3.5 per cent. The terms of trade de- that further questions be placed on the Notice clined by 0.9 per cent in the December Paper. quarter 2001, reflecting a larger fall in export QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: prices, which were down 2.1 per cent, than in ADDITIONAL ANSWERS import prices, which were down 1.2 per cent. Over the year the terms of trade continued to Economy: Debt Management rise increasing by 1.6 per cent. Have you had Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— enough yet? Minister for Finance and Administration) Opposition senators interjecting— (3.03 p.m.)—Yesterday, Senator Conroy asked me a question about forward foreign The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Address exchange contracts and I said I would get the chair please, Senator Coonan. some further information from the Treasurer. Opposition senators interjecting— I seek leave to incorporate a response in The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! Hansard. Will those on my left come to order. Leave granted. Senator COONAN—The net income The answer read as follows— deficit widened very modestly in the De- • The Commonwealth is not gambling in for- cember quarter 2001, up by $0.2 billion. The eign currencies through forward foreign ex- result was underpinned by an increase in change contracts. Forward foreign exchange income debits, servicing of investment in contracts between the Australian Office of Australia—(Time expired) Financial Management (AOFM) and the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) are being Senator CONROY—Madam Deputy used to assist in the move to zero foreign President, I ask a supplementary question. currency exposure agreed by the Treasurer Thank you to Senator Coonan for the tour de in September 2001. force of her brief, but I also asked her about • Over the period from October 2000 to Sep- the revenue implications. Why can’t the tember 2001, the AOFM transacted forward minister tell us the revenue implications foreign exchange contracts with the RBA in when she is the responsible minister? How is order to comply with the direction that the it that Australia’s foreign debt is at a record existing level of foreign currency exposure level of $326.1 billion and is 69 per cent be maintained. higher than when the coalition came to • Since the decision to move towards zero power? What does this say about the gov- foreign currency exposure was agreed by ernment’s record on national savings? What the Treasurer in September 2001, forward are the implications of this record foreign foreign exchange contracts have been en- debt for Commonwealth revenue? tered into with the RBA to manage the run- down of the foreign currency exposure in Senator COONAN—I thought Senator accordance with a schedule agreed with the Conroy would be the last person to talk RBA. about savings. Before the election, Senator • The maturity profile of foreign currency Conroy talked about putting up taxes. Imag- exposures is uneven. The forward foreign ine what that would have done to savings. exchange contracts enable the foreign cur- Senator Conroy said, ‘We’ve got hard deci- rency exposure to be eliminated in a smooth sions to make over the next couple of orderly fashion. months: are we going to cut programs or are • Under the agreed rundown schedule the we going to increase some taxes.’ You were a foreign currency exposure will be elimi- high taxing government and you drove down nated over a period not exceeding seven savings. Senator Conroy said that you would years. be making announcements as you go. We PRIVILEGE have not heard very much from the opposi- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (3.04 tion about any kind of tax reform or any kind p.m.)—I make a statement concerning the of policy since the election. You are an ab- remarks of Senator Heffernan during the ad- solute disgrace. Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 665 dress-in-reply debate yesterday. Senator Stott been informed that there was no prior circu- Despoja has asked whether Senator Heffer- lation of that speech. I was curious to find nan’s remarks contravene standing order out, for the benefit of my party and others, 193(3) in that they constitute offensive what the consequences would have been if words, imputations and personal reflections that had been made available earlier. against a judicial officer. She has also asked The Democrats believe that the Senate why, if the remarks are contrary to the rules of debate are very strong in relation to standing order, the chair did not intervene protection. They attempt to provide for a during the speech. She has requested advice number of groups, but in particular for judi- on whether publication of a speech before its cial officers. They relevantly provide that a delivery in the Senate is protected by parlia- senator will not use offensive words against mentary privilege. She has asked that my a judicial officer and all imputations of im- advice be presented to the Senate at the ear- proper motives and all personal reflections liest opportunity. on judicial officers shall be considered As requested, I now table Senator Stott highly disorderly. On this basis, the Demo- Despoja’s letter and my statement in re- crats express our concern that the remarks by sponse. I consider that the remarks by Sena- Senator Heffernan last night were actually tor Heffernan did constitute references to a well and truly outside the standing orders. I judicial officer, contrary to standing order do note the statement that has been provided 193. In relation to speeches in the Senate, by Justice Kirby. I think most people are petitions, notices of motion, questions and aware of his response to the remarks made documents presented to the Senate, advice to last night. senators in the past has followed the princi- It is entirely legitimate for members of ple that it is not open to a senator to make parliament to raise matters of public impor- allegations of illegality or misconduct tance or public interest under parliamentary against a judicial officer unless the senator is privilege; we accept that. However, we do initiating action by the Senate leading to an not believe it is proper for members of par- investigation by the Senate of whether a fed- liament to use parliamentary privilege as an eral judicial officer should be removed under opportunity to make unsubstantiated or slan- section 72(ii) of the Constitution. derous allegations against individuals, re- I was not in the chair when the remarks gardless of who those individuals may be. were made, but I am advised that the chair Senator Heffernan claims to have evidence did not intervene in the course of the speech of misconduct by Justice Kirby. If he has that because it was not clear until the end of the evidence—and I believe this has been said speech that Senator Heffernan was making by a number of people today—and it is evi- serious allegations against an identifiable, dence of a criminal offence, as he has sug- serving judicial officer. At the conclusion of gested, he must present that to the police. I the speech, it was necessary to compare parts note the comments of the New South Wales of the speech to be clear about what he was police minister today that allegations against doing. The publication of a senator’s speech Justice Kirby have been investigated and did before its presentation in the Senate is not not warrant the laying of charges. If Senator protected by parliamentary privilege. Heffernan feels that he has exhausted all op- Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- tions to have the matter considered outside tralia—Leader of the Australian Democrats) the parliament he has the privilege of being (3.06 p.m.)—by leave—I move: able to present his evidence to the parlia- ment. That the Senate take note of the statement. Madam Deputy President, I thank you for However, the senator has not presented his responding so quickly to the request of the evidence. As he said last night, and I quote Australian Democrats today in relation to from the Hansard: whether or not the events in the chamber last I have personally interviewed at great length, and night contravened section 193(3) of the obtained statutory declarations from, former rent standing orders. I place on record that I have boys from Sydney and Wollongong who worked 666 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 the Wall at Darlinghurst as young male prosti- record of the Senate and acquire a certain tutes, some of whom were taken to an address in status— Darley Street—an address known to the police, adjacent to the Wall—by this judge on various Opposition senator—A precedent. occasions in a fee-for-service arrangement. Senator HILL—A precedent, as my These statutory declarations have not been learned friend on the other side suggests. made available to senators. The senator also Perhaps, Madam Deputy President, if you alludes to Comcar documents that, similarly, decide to move into the area of legal inter- remain undisclosed. If Senator Heffernan has pretation at least you could provide the legal evidence of misconduct, he must make it basis for the conclusion that you have available to the proper authorities to allow a reached. proper investigation to take place. The I turn to the more substantial issue— Democrats are very concerned about Senator which is the one that Senator Stott Despoja Heffernan’s comments last night, particularly was really getting to—of whether it is appro- given the very high standing of the judicial priate for a parliamentarian to raise matters officer he impugned. The Prime Minister has that impugn the character of an individual, indicated that this matter will be investi- whether they be a judge or not. It is true that gated. It is now up to Senator Heffernan to privilege is a powerful tool and it is our obli- provide the basis for his claims rather than gation to use it responsibly. In other words, merely refer to evidence that is not pre- we must take into account the harm that it sented. might do to an individual and weigh it Senator HILL (South Australia—Leader against what we see as the common good, of the Government in the Senate) (3.09 the broader benefit that would flow from p.m.)—I do not want to quarrel on the issue such a decision. I have no reason to believe of whether there was a technical breach of that Senator Heffernan would do other than the standing orders. There were literally take that obligation seriously. As most hon- thousands of technical breaches of the ourable senators would acknowledge, Sena- standing orders during question time today, tor Heffernan is deeply distressed by matters but nobody even bothered to raise a point of relating to child abuse. order. That, of course, is simply a cover to Senator Bolkus—He puts himself above enable the leader of the Australian Demo- the law, does he? crats to put on the public record her views on Senator HILL—Senator, you participate the substantial issue in the hope of getting a in this debate. He is particularly concerned run in the press. by a belief that the institutions of this nation Senator Stott Despoja—My views are al- that are primarily responsible for protecting ready on the record, Senator Hill. I do not children have been compromised, in this in- need to say it again. stance, and are not proving effective. In his Senator HILL—If the Democrats are be- letter to the Prime Minister today, Senator coming so passionate about the standing or- Heffernan says: ders then I am pleased to hear that. That is a Prime Minister, as you know, I have for many revelation to me and I suspect to those on my years had serious concerns about the potential of side. serious compromises of our political, judicial, legal and religious institutions. Madam Deputy President, the last point that you made, in which you asserted a point Again, I would have thought that most hon- of law, I would respectfully suggest is better ourable senators would acknowledge that for the courts to determine, if a relevant ap- there has clearly been serious compromise of plication is taken. With respect, Madam these institutions that have that broader so- Deputy President, the pre-publishing of in- cial responsibility. I hesitate to choose the formation is a controversial and complex church from that listing, but we all know of area of law. I note your views, but of course instances in which the church has been sig- your views now go down into the historical nificantly compromised, and we would have thought the church, above all of these insti- Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 667 tutions, would put the protection of children Senator Bolkus—He should be sacked. as the highest priority. This concern about Why don’t you sack him? the compromise of these critically important Senator HILL—He has already stood institutions has been a deep and long held aside as a parliamentary secretary, Senator concern of Senator Heffernan and it has been Bolkus—you are not aware of it. He has one that he has been pursuing. stood aside and has been prepared to accept Opposition senators interjecting— an extra penalty which I think illustrates his Senator HILL—No, I am trying to ex- very deep and genuine feeling on the issue of plain to the Senate why an honourable sena- child abuse and our failure as a society to tor, in utilising the power of privilege, could properly address it and rid our community of believe that his concern about a failure of the what is, clearly, to every reasonable person a institutions and the responsibility of those totally unacceptable practice. Senator Hef- institutions for the broader good might out- fernan is deeply committed to that. He would weigh the damage he may do to an individ- probably say he is obsessional about fighting ual. child abuse. It is hard to knock him for that. You can be obsessional but not irrational. As I said, this does not mean the senator You can be very rational in a determination should use this power wantonly. The senator to fight child abuse in every possible way. should be satisfied it is factually correct, for Clearly Senator Heffernan has committed example. In my view, if it is an allegation of himself to that task. a criminal offence in the way I have read Senator Heffernan’s speech, which I read In summary, it is a responsibility that has today, where there are allegations of crime, to be taken carefully by senators. The conse- then I believe they should be referred to the quences to all parties weigh heavily. I have police first. Only if he has a genuine belief no reason to think Senator Heffernan is not there is a total failure of that process would genuine in this particular issue. I trust Justice he be warranted to come here. I gather there Kirby has not been unfairly maligned. The has been a communication with the police on matters have been referred to the police. this issue in the past. I am not sure of the full They will be reported back and the whole details of that. I know that Senator Heffernan world, in effect, will know the analysis of has now referred these allegations to the po- that particular matter. I wanted to put on the lice again. record those few words in an effort to ad- dress this particular difficult and onerous I accept it is important to protect the responsibility of senators and I think that, in reputation of individuals. But I have been on the instance of the record of Senator Heffer- the public record in the past in commending nan, objective observers will recognise this is Justice Kirby. I commended him for his law not a wanton attack. This is not an attack reform activity and I have commended him without a genuinely based belief that it is for actions he has taken in preservation of true. This is not an attack without a genuine human rights so I am not standing here as belief it will actually lead to better safe- somebody who has a record of Kirby bash- guarding the children of Australia. ing. I am seeking to evaluate a senator in the exercise of an important responsibility he has Senator FAULKNER (New South not only to an individual but also to the Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- broader public good. Senator Heffernan has ate) (3.19 p.m.)—I rise on the same matter. weighed both sides of that issue and he has Your statement, Madam Deputy President, clearly come to a conclusion it is in the pub- has confirmed what has been blindingly ob- lic good that he puts these matters on the vious to everyone who has become aware of table in an effort to lead to institutional re- Senator Heffernan’s outrageous abuse of form that will better safeguard the children parliamentary privilege last night—that, at of Australia. Senator Heffernan has been the very least, there has been an infringement prepared to pay an additional price for this, of Senate standing order No. 193 (3) by im- which is illustrated through standing aside. puting improper motives and making per- sonal reflections against a judicial officer. In 668 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 other words, Senator Heffernan, as you have time, and I hope Senator Hill would accept reported to the Senate, is guilty of highly that. Yes, of course there is disorderly con- disorderly conduct. Of course, it is much duct in question time and at other times. But more than that. this is a very serious breach of the standing Senator Heffernan used the Senate last orders of the Senate and deliberately the night to launch a cowardly attack against a judge’s name is mentioned in the last gasp, respected member of the High Court of Aus- the last breath of the speech, so the chair’s tralia, Mr Justice Michael Kirby. This attack attention cannot be drawn to the breach. was based on nothing more than allegations Comparing this with disorderly conduct—the contained in correspondence which Senator interplay across the chamber in question time Heffernan claims to have received from an and the like—is an absurd comparison and unnamed source, and statutory declarations everyone knows it. Everyone knows it. which have been purportedly obtained from The truth is this is the sort of behaviour other unnamed persons. I say the word ‘cow- that we have come to expect from Senator ardly’, deliberately and deservedly. It will Heffernan. Senator Heffernan does not have not have escaped senators’ notice that, in a strong record of making speeches in this order to avoid being ruled out of order, chamber. He has made very few contribu- Senator Heffernan did not expose the target tions—if you care to check the parliamentary of his attack until the end of his speech. I record—and, I think, no contribution to con- refer senators to yesterday’s Hansard. In the structive debate in the chamber. Instead he last few sentences of Senator Heffernan’s uses the chamber, on the rare occasions he speech he said: speaks, to pursue what does appear to be a … this judge fails the test of public trust and judi- personal vendetta against homosexuals, and I cial legitimacy ... and clearly is not fit and proper do not say that before the Senate lightly. I to sit in judgment of people charged with sex have come to the conclusion that Senator offences against children. Heffernan is a person who parades his obses- He says: sive homophobia as a badge of honour, and This ... judge shares three things in common he does it as if it is some kind of public with the judge who made the speech to the King’s service. College School of Law and the judge who made Senator Hill—His attacks in relation to the speech to St Ignatius College and the judge child abuse apply just as much as homosexu- who made the observations about Father Vincent ality. Gerard Ryan ... Senator FAULKNER—But you know I He then says in the second last sentence of have said to you privately, Senator Hill—I his speech: don’t say what you have said to me—that I … because they are all one and the same person. don’t think that Senator Heffernan under- The conclusion, the last sentence, of Senator stands the difference between homosexuality Heffernan’s speech is: and paedophilia. I genuinely do not think he I seek leave to table two speeches: one to the understands the difference. You are dead Australian Bar Association conference in New right about one thing, Senator Hill: that all York by Justice Murray Gleeson and one to the senators are vigorously opposed to paedo- King’s College School of Law in London by the philia, and I have got no doubt whatsoever Hon. Justice Michael Kirby. about that. But Senator Heffernan’s vigilante The last four words of Senator Heffernan’s behaviour in pursuit of this cause actually speech name the judge: the Hon. Justice Mi- runs the risk of debasing the cause. chael Kirby. The subject of the attack was It is well known here that Senator Heffer- not exposed till the end of Senator Heffer- nan has been trying to retail this story for nan’s speech. Though the opposition, and I months around the gallery, around the par- am sure other senators, take seriously their liament, and, unable to get it up in the media, responsibility in trying to ensure that stand- has resorted to the desperate tactic of using ing orders are upheld, this is not a matter of parliamentary privilege in the way I have interjections across the chamber at question outlined. I want to be clear about this: Sena- Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 669 tor Heffernan has used the protection of the Senator Bolkus—He stood himself down. chamber to traduce the reputation of an emi- Senator FAULKNER—Senator Bolkus nent High Court judge. He has done so with- tells me that Senator Heffernan has taken out producing a single shred of evidence. He that— has done so, so we were informed by the Prime Minister in House of Representatives Senator Robert Ray—Is he still being question time earlier this afternoon, having paid? taken his complaint to the New South Wales Senator FAULKNER—That I do not Police and having had that complaint dis- know, Senator Ray, but if you stand aside missed. We now know as a result of letters you do not get paid. I think we are all aware that have been tabled in the House that of that. Senator Heffernan, after his speech last Senator Robert Ray—I will check, don’t night—today, in other words—has written to worry! the Police Commissioner of New South Senator FAULKNER—The fact of the Wales, Commissioner Ryan, and put certain matter here is that Senator Heffernan has matters by way of a letter before the Police breached a standing order and is obviously Commissioner. After the speech—not before consequently guilty of highly disorderly the speech—was made in the Senate last conduct. There is an issue in the manner in night. which the standing order has been breached, I checked what the situation was in rela- but I will say no more about that. He has tion to these matters, because they have been been cut loose, to some extent, by the Prime raised in the New South Wales parliament. I Minister and the government. We do know have now the statement by the New South that the Prime Minister has advised Senator Wales police minister, Mr Costa, that was Heffernan not to abuse parliamentary privi- made to the New South Wales parliament lege. I imagine that the speech was made by this afternoon, and I will read it into the Senator Heffernan as some form of political Hansard. The police minister in New South diversion because of other events that are Wales, Mr Costa, said this: being debated in the public arena in this I’m advised that police have previously investi- country at this time. If so, it is a bit like that gated information provided to them by Senator torpedo that we have heard so much about in Heffernan. another matter, the ‘children overboard’ I’m advised those investigations did not warrant saga: the admiral’s torpedo. Again, this one the laying of any charges in connection with the has homed in on the launcher rather than the matters recently raised by the Senator. target. And that is as it should be. If Senator Heffernan or any other person has alle- In conclusion—and I have deliberately gations concerning serious criminal offences they contained the remarks I have made on this— should provide them to NSW Police. I just want to say this to the Senate. On the These matters will be investigated irrespective of letterhead of the High Court of Australia, in whom they concern. the name of Christopher Doogan, the Chief If any person has concerns about improper police Executive and Principal Registrar of the handling of an investigation they should refer the High Court, Justice Kirby has issued this matter to the Police Integrity Commission. Those statement. It is a brief statement of three concerns will be investigated. sentences only, and I want to quote the last That is the parliamentary statement by the two of them. Justice Kirby says: Minister for Police in New South Wales, the If he— Hon. Michael Costa. and ‘he’ refers to Senator Heffernan— I do believe that this is a serious matter. Its has such accusations, he should approach the seriousness is underlined by the fact that the proper authorities, not slander a fellow citizen in Prime Minister has stood Senator Heffernan Parliament. In so far as he attempts to interfere in aside from his position as Parliamentary Sec- the performance of my duties as a judge I reject retary to Cabinet pending the outcome of any the attempt utterly. further police inquiries. Justice Kirby’s statement stands for itself. 670 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

Senator ALSTON (Victoria—Minister that he is doing this to distract attention from for Communications, Information Technol- some other problems that the government ogy and the Arts) (3.32 p.m.)—Clearly there have. But in both instances, you are im- are some very serious issues involved in this pugning his motives. matter. I note your statement, and I think it It is yet another example of how we would probably be helpful, given the seri- should not be so concerned with the rules of ousness of the issues, that you should pro- debate that we do not look at the wider issues vide the legal and other authority that under- involved. Quite clearly, it would be utterly pins your ruling so that we can better appre- unacceptable for any member of this parlia- ciate what it is that leads to the conclusions ment to come in here and make sweeping that you have drawn. allegations without having carefully thought I will just deal in passing with the rules of about the consequences and without having debate, because there seems to have been a done a great deal of homework to try and bit of emphasis placed on the fact that all establish, to the best of their ability, whether imputations by a senator or member of im- they appear to be accurate. To the extent that proper motives against any member of either all you do is pick up what a lot of people house of parliament or against a judicial offi- have said to you and say that it sounds plau- cer shall be considered highly disorderly. sible, I do not think that is good enough. But Senator Faulkner has just given us a classic to say, as Senator Faulkner did, ‘without example of how that is breached on a regular producing a shred of evidence’—I think that basis, because what he did was to not just was his expression—that is not quite an ac- say, ‘Senator Heffernan makes serious alle- curate description of what occurred on this gations, they are hotly contested, the evi- occasion. dence does not support them and therefore Senator Heffernan does seem to have ob- they should be rejected,’ but he goes further tained documents or had access to docu- and says that not only is this a personal ven- ments because he says ‘according to corre- detta, but that Senator Heffernan is parading spondence I have received’ and he goes on to obsessions as a badge of honour as if it is talk in considerable detail about Comcar rec- some kind of public service, and then he ac- ords. Those records can be tested in due cuses him of a political diversion. Now both course. I am simply saying that it is not fair of those are classic examples of imputations to describe that as ‘without producing a of improper motives. In other words, he is shred of evidence’. If you are concerned saying that Senator Heffernan is not raising about due process, perhaps one should also these matters out of a genuine concern to be concerned at the suggestion that these hopefully eliminate but at best reduce— Comcar records, which were officially al- Senator Faulkner—My words actually leged to have been destroyed in the 1990s stand for themselves. under the Archives Act, were still in exis- Senator ALSTON—I have quoted you tence in the year 2000 and were refused to because I wrote them down. You said, ‘This Senator Heffernan under FOI. Those in is a personal vendetta against homosexuals themselves are very serious process issues. and he parades his obsessions as a badge of What I am saying is that one should only honour as if it is some kind of public serv- ever exercise the enormous privilege and, ice.’ And then you went on a little later to therefore, power that attaches to our posi- say that this was a political diversion. In tions as a last resort. If I thought for a mo- other words, what you were doing on both of ment that Senator Heffernan was taking the those occasions was to say that he is not mo- easy way out and saying, ‘You know, I could tivated by genuine concern for child abuse refer these matters to the police or I could and its eradication but that on the one hand make some further investigation but, basi- he is doing it because he sees it as a badge of cally, I’ll retail some stories I’ve heard’, I honour—in other words he is doing it for would regard that as totally unacceptable. I self-important reasons—and on the other do not see evidence that he has done that. It hand it is just a straight, classic political line is quite to the contrary: he has been mulling Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 671 over these issues, their implications and, as reputation of the judiciary. The precise words Senator Hill said, the wider effect on a num- were: ber of institutions which people had previ- The issue of who the judges were was never an- ously revered and which, if not condemned, swered. My inquiries as to when these serious now stand seriously challenged for the way allegations would be dealt with were replied to in in which they have approached these very the following terms: difficult issues. In circumstances like that, We have decided not to revisit any of that because for example, with Justice Yeldham, one is the public would lose confidence in the judiciary. entitled to say that, if one had some substan- That is a matter of concern because, if the tiating evidence—not merely a rumour— effect of that is to cover people in high which for one reason or another had not per- places because of fear of undermining confi- suaded legal authorities in New South Wales dence in the institution, then no-one would to take action, and one was firmly con- ever say anything bad about anyone in high vinced—in other words, one was genuine in office, let alone in the parliament. Yet the one’s concern for the issue—that there was media and everyone else has a field day on a evidence that justified action and it was not regular basis trying to expose the real and being taken, then it may well have averted perceived shortcomings and improper be- the ultimate tragedy of Justice Yeldham’s haviour of a whole manner of people in po- actions and their consequences for him and sitions of authority. One has to be conscious others. of the concern that, in many respects, there So whilst one has to exercise that respon- may well have been a well-intentioned sibility very carefully, we should not simply cover-up at various levels of authority over say whenever anyone stands up under the the years. cover of privilege and makes serious allega- I am one of the first to acknowledge that tions about someone else that they are, by circumstances and community attitudes definition, slanderous or unsubstantiated re- change, and it is very dangerous, in my view, marks, which is the expression that Senator to judge people by the standards that prevail Stott Despoja used, or a cowardly attack on a now and apply those standards to conduct respected judge, as Senator Faulkner said. that occurred many years earlier. In many They are clearly matters of the gravest im- respects, as I think we all know, there is port. They clearly involve very serious alle- much heightened community concern about gations. It does not follow that a serious alle- these issues that people might have talked gation by itself is slanderous, because it has about at an informal level many years ago to be shown to be untrue. but never thought of in a criminal context. What is occurring is a fundamental debate They were at best social issues; they were about freedom of speech and the great care normally laughed about rather than thought with which it should be exercised. But we of as issues to be concerned about. It is should not fall into the trap of saying that, if against that background that one has to be the consequences are very serious or if they careful to ensure that the presumption of in- relate to a person at a high level of authority, nocence prevails and careful that someone we should not even mention them. If you against whom serious allegations are made is take that approach, in many ways, you are given an opportunity to respond to the detail doing the very sort of thing that has caused of those matters. But we should not go so far Senator Heffernan to become very frustrated as to say that, by definition, if serious alle- with the existing processes. He quotes from gations are made against people in high of- the Wood royal commission, where matters fice it is slanderous or unsubstantiated. There were raised and a reference was made to has to be evidence to make us feel comfort- judges. When he asked whether judges able that the person making the allegations would be named—and I presume that could has done his or her homework and that there have been done in camera—the answer was is some supporting material. As long as the to the effect that it could undermine the material is acted on in good faith, I think it is legitimate to proceed down that path but, 672 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 again, these matters have to be very carefully tor Hill and Senator Alston today, it seems considered. If Senator Heffernan is exercis- that no longer applies. I have to say that I am ing that right of last resort when he has ex- not a fan of standing order 193. I have never hausted other avenues, it is very important understood why judicial officers should be that we address the professional conflicts protected from criticism. But as long as that might arise in certain circumstances and standing order 193 stands, we should obey it. certainly any criminality that might emerge Not much to my credit, I have never tried to from a proper and considered assessment of change it. I have always thought you would material. not have any chance anyway, but maybe I Senator ROBERT RAY (Victoria) (3.43 should have. Putting that aside, as long as p.m.)—I found that last comment by Senator that standing order is there, it should apply. Alston very interesting—that it was legiti- Where does the criticism lie in this? mate to go down that path as a last resort. Let Senator Calvert was in the chair. I watched us have a look at what the Liberal Party has the speech last night and I read it again to- done in the other chamber in relation to a day. There can be no criticism at all of judge. Let us go to 3 March 1998, when the Senator Calvert’s chairing—and there was then member for Holt, Gareth Evans, asked a none in your statement—because it was done question that included the phrase ‘a shocking in such a way that the name was revealed error of judgment’, referring to Justice Calli- only in the last four words. Even then, nan of the High Court. That phrase, in fact, Senator Calvert would have had to go back was Justice Goldberg’s criticism of Barrister and analyse the whole speech to absolutely Callinan before he became a High Court conclude that that particular person was judge. What happened was that the then mentioned. Deputy Prime Minister objected. He said: The second person responsible, who is I submit that under standing orders— sitting in front of me, is Senator George and they are the same as the Senate’s, by the Campbell. He does have a responsibility, as way— opposition frontbencher on chamber duty, to only a motion can be moved and no other criti- make sure the standing orders are not cism made in respect directly of a judge of the breached. Again, I think Senator Campbell High Court of this land. behaved quite appropriately. There was no He goes on to say that he accepts that is not point last night, in this cleverly constructed the entirety of the question. What happens? speech, when he could have intervened. In- Gareth Evans is made to withdraw by the deed, you can see that he refused to allow Speaker, quite appropriately, even though it these things to be tabled, trying to get a bit of is only a very inferential criticism of a judge. leverage in there. So I congratulate both Senator Calvert and Senator George Camp- Three or four months later, on 15 July bell for behaving appropriately. 1998, Mr Hardgrave asks the Attorney- General, Mr Williams, a question, and Mr I should say this up front: I have never Martin Ferguson, the member for Batman, met Justice Kirby, so I am not carrying any says, ‘What have you got to say about Calli- support for him. When I have read his legal nan?’ That is all he says. Then there is a rulings, more often than not I have not whole series of objections—from the Prime agreed with them. So there is no simpatico Minister, the Treasurer and others—and Mr here at all in terms of his career as a judge. Martin Ferguson is forced to withdraw, when But there is absolutely no doubt that Senator his only remark was ‘What about Callinan?’ Heffernan not only breached standing orders So we have a Liberal Party that would—at last night but massively breached them. The least in the House of Representatives, and, I whole speech was deliberately written in would assume, here too, more often than such a malicious way as to have Justice not—take the right path and protect standing Kirby named only right at the end, in the orders and would not allow a judicial officer foreknowledge that he would have been to be indirectly criticised, let alone directly ruled out of order under standing order 193 criticised. Yet, from the defence from Sena- at any point during the speech. Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 673

This means that it is not just a question of would have to say that his career is over. He what Senator Heffernan said last night but has been so besmirched and so attacked that also a question for all of us as to how this he will have very little credibility no matter chamber behaves in future. Am I allowed to where the truth in the matter lies, and I think stand up and give a 10-minute speech criti- that is fairly sad. cising one of my opposition colleagues, The question that you did not answer, calling them for everything but not naming Madam Deputy President, is what we can do them, and then, at the last minute, name them about this. I am sure that one strain of and just sit down? That would, I think, lower thought would say: if someone behaved in a the tone in this place to a point where none totally disorderly fashion like this, you could of us would like to see it lowered. So we strike it from the Hansard record. I have should bear that in mind. It is not just a never supported striking things from the question of attacking a judicial officer but Hansard record. What is said is said. I just also a question of the order in which things do not know what sort of penalty can apply are done. to a senator who has behaved in a disorderly When you look at Senator Heffernan’s way but the disorder has become apparent speech, you see that it is pretty low-grade only at the very last second. I do not know stuff. He is only into paragraph three when what the solution to that is, but I do say this: he is trying to drag the Governor-General the Senate should at least take a strong moral into his speech, saying that he is sure the stance against this, otherwise we will be into Governor-General would agree with him. I a sort of speech payback against each other do not know why he has gratuitously brought that would be totally disorderly but probably His Excellency the Governor-General into it. very effective. I would rather not see that Senator Heffernan has been very active develop. around the corridors in making his views on As I said earlier, any time a judicial offi- the Governor-General known, but of course cer has been attacked in either chamber—but he would never have the ticker to come in especially in the House of Representatives— here and say it. the Liberal Party have been very quick to I will move on. Senator Heffernan goes on object, even if it has been the most indirect to quote a senior judicial officer without and most insignificant attack. I think that the naming the person, so I do not know what sorts of speeches we have heard today—the credence we can give to that part of his weasel words we heard from Senator Hill, speech when this person is not named. He and I did not think Senator Alston even had goes on and talks about the unauthorised use his heart in it, to be honest—trying to justify of Comcars. That is pretty good, coming Senator Heffernan’s attitude really are sad- from Senator Heffernan and the problems he dening. had a few years ago. He then goes on to say People say, ‘Where is Senator Heffernan?’ that most of the evidence comes from his I do not necessarily expect him to be here for interviews with rentboys—not always the this debate today. Maybe he is cleaning out most reliable witnesses in history, probably. his office; I do not know what he is doing. I You just have to go back and have a look at hope at some stage he comes down and tries the tape of the story that Four Corners ran to justify his disorderly conduct—not just by about the conspiracy theories that John repeating the allegations, not just by smear- Seyffer was trying to sell him to know what ing a High Court judge—and explains why sort of modus operandi would have operated he used that modus operandi. I would still be here. critical of him if he had walked into this Quite clearly, Justice Kirby could use sec- chamber and said, ‘Tonight I am going to tion 5 of the Parliamentary Privileges Act attack Justice Michael Kirby.’ I would be and have his response put down here in the critical of him, but I would at least acknowl- chamber, but I would suggest that is a waste edge that he had some ticker. But the way it of time; he is a person of such prominence. was done was to attack. He must have Basically, following that speech last night, I thought he was so clever—the same judge, 674 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 the way the speeches were laid out and the age when the accusations themselves are interconnecting web. What a clever little boy false? he was, coming in here and laying it out that If Senator Heffernan had a problem with way. the police, if he felt that the police were not But I tell you that I would have a little taking the right course of action, he should more admiration for him and would say that have pursued that through civil action. But he had a little more ticker if he had come in the fact that he did not underscores the pau- here, put up with the interjections from city of evidence he had—it simply was not Senator Calvert and Senator Campbell, and there to make a prosecution. Nevertheless, toughed it out. But, of course, he did not. He we now have this extraordinary outcome did it in such as way as to get every smear on where enormous damage has been done to a the public record to stand without retraction, person who is not only the longest serving and I think that is a pretty sad reflection. I and one of the most senior judges in this suppose the only thing I will say in his fa- country but also one of the most honoured vour is that, for the very first time, Senator judges in world judicial circles. Heffernan has come into this chamber and It has been a sneak attack. It is a gutter- repeated what he has told us all around the crawling attack when somebody comes into corridors for the last five or six years. this place and lays out a series of charges and Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (3.53 not just in the last sentence but in the last p.m.)—I too wish to speak to the motion word names the person who is the target of moved by Senator Stott Despoja. I thank that attack. I agree with previous speakers: it Senator Stott Despoja and you, Madam Dep- was a premeditated effort to get around the uty President, for the question and the re- rules of this chamber to create enormous and sponse which have led to this debate. The irrevocable damage to an honourable mem- action which took place in the Senate last ber of the court on the basis of false charges. night by Senator Heffernan was appalling. It I believe Justice Michael Kirby, and I do not cannot be allowed to go unremarked and not believe the honourable senator had the right responded to by any house of parliament that to make that attack. It is difficult for the Sen- is going to maintain its own integrity. There ate, but I think the Senate and the Privileges is no doubt that Senator Heffernan has a deep Committee are going to have to find redress and abiding abhorrence of child abuse. So in this matter as best they can. does every other member I know of in this I also note the comments made in the chamber—and no less than him—but the chamber about the diversionary nature of approach is quite different. As Senator Senator Heffernan’s remarks late last night. Faulkner said, there appears to be an obses- Notwithstanding his removal today, tempo- sion or a vendetta involved here, which in rarily or otherwise, from his position by the itself is a matter for great worry. Prime Minister, and in view of the very close When you look at the accusations that relationship—which is on the public rec- Senator Heffernan made, you see that the ord—that this senator has with the Prime real problem he has is not with this parlia- Minister, the question arises as to what ment and not with a judicial officer but with knowledge the Prime Minister had that this the police and their failure to take action if evidence would surface in this fashion and he has real evidence. It has been noted in the what forewarning the Prime Minister gave to chamber that His Honour Justice Michael this close confidante of his in the Senate that Kirby has said that the accusations are false. this should not take place. I note that the That is where we are at this moment. We are Prime Minister has now taken action, but I with a senator who has made false accusa- have seen the Prime Minister take action tions which nevertheless led to headlines against ministers before when it was too late. today which are extraordinarily damaging. Is One cannot get away from the prima facie the Senate going to allow behaviour whereby case through this run of events that this is a a member of this chamber can make accusa- diversionary effort to take attention away tions in a manner which leads to such dam- from the government’s own problems. It is a Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 675 dastardly thing. I—along, I am sure, with QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: other senators—will now be looking for re- TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS dress. Lucas Heights: Nuclear Reactor Madam Deputy President, I do not think it Senator CARR (Victoria) (4.01 p.m.)—I is good enough that Senator Heffernan is not move: here for this debate. He prosecuted the case. That the Senate take note of the answer given He should now be here to respond to those by the Minister for Communications, Information who do not believe he did the right thing. It Technology and the Arts (Senator Alston) to a is not only him but also this Senate chamber question without notice asked by Senator Carr that is on trial as far as propriety is con- today relating to a contract with the Argentinian cerned. It is up to Senator Heffernan to be company INVAP to build a new nuclear reactor at here to defend the course of action that he Lucas Heights. took. He is not, and that of itself speaks vol- Despite constant reassurances by the gov- umes. As a senator—and I have great confi- ernment on the financial stability of INVAP, dence in being able to say this on behalf of we have received confirmation today that the Australian Greens—I express our abhor- there has been a loan extended by the Ar- rence at what has happened, our deep con- gentinian government to INVAP, the main cern for the judiciary, our condolences and contractor building the new reactor at Lucas our wish that Mr Justice Kirby is able to Heights. We have the ridiculous situation withstand the totally improper attack that has whereby the bankrupt government of Argen- been made upon him using these false tina is expected to assist a financially charges. I hope that he finds the strength to stricken company, INVAP, which has been be able to do that. I am sure he will have the contracted to build the $300 million reactor best wishes of millions of Australians with at Lucas Heights. We are expected to believe him today. the government on this, and I quote, for in- Question agreed to. stance, the Minister for Science, Mr Peter PARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE McGauran, who said recently on the ABC Earthbeat program: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (4.00 p.m.)—Yesterday Senator Lightfoot, when in We are constantly monitoring the situation through our ambassador. Specifically, ANSTO the chair in committee of the whole on the officers are based at INVAP full time and senior Regional Forest Agreements Bill, undertook members of the ANSTO organisation, including to refer to me a point of order raised by the executive director, travel to Argentina on a Senator Brown in relation to remarks made regular basis. We are alert to any flow-on effects by Senator Ian Macdonald. Senator Lightfoot from the difficulties of the Argentinian economy, indicated that he did not hear the comments but INVAP is insulated to all intents and purposes by Senator Macdonald as being made about from those problems. any particular senator. We are told that this is a situation where the On reading the Hansard transcript, it is government is constantly monitoring the cir- fairly clear that Senator Macdonald was re- cumstances surrounding its main contractor ferring to Senator Brown when he referred to at Lucas Heights, but at the same time the ‘some senators—I should say only one— project manager, Mr Gary Seaborne, is deliberately putting up false information’ and quoted on the ABC last week as saying that to the tactics of ‘fascists, anarchists and he was not aware of the arrangements en- Marxists’ seeking to prevent other views be- tered into to provide the $10.5 billion loan by ing heard. Such imputations against a senator the bankrupt Argentinian government to the are contrary to standing order 193. I ask main contractor at Lucas Heights. Frankly, I senators to refrain from making such impu- find it almost impossible to believe that the tations, with or without subtlety which might project management, despite these claims of make them difficult to follow at the time constant monitoring, was not made aware of when they are uttered. these arrangements. We have, of course, the statement presented by the Argentinian gov- ernment to their parliament on 1 March last 676 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 year where they indicated that they were ex- programs, which will, in my view, inevitably tending a loan of 12 billion pesos for what include this reactor. (Time expired) they described as pre-financing of exports Senator TIERNEY (New South Wales) referred to in the contract with the Australian (4.07 p.m.)—I rise today to respond to some Nuclear Science and Technology Organisa- of the scurrilous accusations by association tion, ANSTO. There is no doubt in my mind that Senator Carr is raising about the INVAP that these circumstances have in fact oc- contract in Argentina. curred. What troubles me is the fact that the Australian government has been so inept at Senator George Campbell—Scurrilous? discovering these matters until today when Senator TIERNEY—They are scurrilous we have the situation revealed in this parlia- because he is trying to build some sort of ment. link between what is happening in the Ar- As far as I am concerned, this follows a gentine economy with this particular com- pattern of evasion. We have seen a Senate pany, but at no point has he produced any inquiry which launched into an examination evidence—not one shred of evidence—to of the circumstances surrounding the letting show that this company is in any difficulty at of this contract, about the selection of the site all or is not a bona fide company producing and about the priorities set— world-class products. I listened very care- fully to what Senator Carr said in the esti- Senator George Campbell—A select mates hearings two weeks ago when he committee. raised this matter. He went through some Senator CARR—A select committee to points similar to those he has raised today. which ANSTO and the Australian govern- But, again there, he did not create one shred ment chose not to give basic documents of evidence linking the two things. I won- about the contract and the circumstances sur- dered why Senator Carr was doing this. Of rounding the arrangements for the building course, he has this new grand title in this of the new reactor at Lucas Heights. It strikes place: he is now the shadow minister for sci- me that ANSTO has become so desperate ence and research. I can only assume that he about this contract, so desperate to have this is doing the kick-off in his research role by new facility built, that it is quite prepared to making a major attack on a company in a do just about anything. foreign country. This is something similar to I understand there are a lot of people in what we saw Senator Carr do with Green- this country who see the need for a research wich University. Over a number of years he reactor. I am also aware of the overriding made this his cause celebre and this was go- concerns of the local community and the ing to be his big thing that would get public very great concerns being expressed by other attention. Unfortunately, in this case he is research scientists that suggest that this is not picking on an operation that is a bona fide an appropriate use of $300 million of public operation that is producing world-class prod- moneys—the single largest capital project in ucts. science in this country. Yet we have circum- How do I know that? I have actually vis- stances where clearly the contract arrange- ited the INVAP site. I have been to San Car- ments are in question. We have serious cir- los de Bariloche with a parliamentary dele- cumstances in relation to the disposal of nu- gation. We went through the site. We have clear waste. Serious circumstances have been discussed with the officers what they do, and raised about the security of the site. What we we saw their products. For the information of have now is a situation where the interna- Senator Carr, because he obviously knows tional community is also concerned about the nothing about this company, this company financial stability of the Argentinian gov- has a longstanding record of producing re- ernment and where the World Bank is cur- search medical nuclear reactors and satellites rently in discussions with the Argentinian in a number of countries around the world. government about significant reductions in Senator Carr—Where? expenditure across a whole range of social Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 677

Senator TIERNEY—I will give you one find it the ultimate irony for Senator Tierney off the top of my head: in Egypt they have to be standing up here on behalf of the gov- one of these facilities. There are a number of ernment and saying, ‘Where is your evi- others around the world. They also produce dence?’ After all, Senator Tierney represents world-class satellites, and these satellites are a government whose Prime Minister, minis- launched into space. What amazed the dele- ters and Secretary to the Department of the gation was the professionalism and the capa- Prime Minister and Cabinet actually made bility of this company. It was a cross-party conclusions in respect of another issue, the delegation; I suggest, Senator, that you talk ‘children overboard’ issue, on the basis that to Mr O’Keefe, who was in the lower house there was no evidence. We had the head of and was on that delegation and who was also the Defence Force and the Secretary to the very impressed with what we saw. I suggest Department of the Prime Minister and Cabi- you talk to Mr Hatton, your parliamentary net saying, ‘Nobody has shown me evidence colleague in the lower house, who was there that it did not happen; therefore, I am entitled and saw the same facility. to assume that it does.’ That is the sort of Let us get back to what Senator Carr’s real logic that you get from this government. motivation is. The real motivation relates to But let us get back to the evidence that the new facility at Lucas Heights. This one was produced to the Senate select committee. has gone through substantial parliamentary Firstly, we have the serious concerns raised inquiries over a number of years. We are in a by members of the scientific community situation where we have a reactor at Lucas about the capacity of INVAP to deliver. I am Heights that was built in 1955 and is obvi- not addressing my remarks to the issue of ously slated for replacement. We have now a whether we should have a nuclear reactor. world-class design, one that will keep Aus- Today I want to focus on whether, if we are tralia at the forefront of nuclear medicine and going to have that reactor as this government the production of nuclear isotopes. We put seems intent on, we are going to get the best our country, in this market, in great danger if value for the $300 million that is going to be this is delayed. The fact that Senator Carr is spent initially constructing this reactor and casting aspersions on this company, very then the further millions of dollars to be unfairly, and on Argentina is not helpful in spent in the next 40 years maintaining and terms of international relations and interna- operating it. I invite senators to go to the full tional trade and it is certainly not helpful in report, but Professor John White, represent- the development of science and technology ing the Academy of Science and supporting in this country. the reactor, expressed his surprise at the fact I listened carefully to Senator Carr in es- that INVAP had won the contract against timates and carefully here today. He has not established companies from Germany, such produced one shred of evidence that indi- as Siemens, and from France, such as Tech- cates that there is any problem with this nicatome, because of the scientific commu- company at all. Before you damage interna- nity’s ‘unfamiliarity with the ability of tional relations any further, if you have any INVAP to perform’. such evidence you should really produce it. In more specific detail, Mr Tony Wood, a Knowing the company, I have great doubts retired nuclear engineer who worked at whether you can produce such evidence. ANSTO and who supported the building of a Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) new reactor, gave evidence to the committee (4.11 p.m.)—I will pick up on the last point and he said: just made by Senator Tierney. He makes the ... the literature does not support the minister’s allegation that no evidence has been pro- claim that INVAP has a ‘solid track record’. It is duced. In a moment I will come to the evi- not that it has a poor track record. It has no track dence that has been produced, particularly record on the reactor of significance—that is, a before the Senate select committee inquiry, 20-megawatt reactor. on the serious question surrounding the ca- Senator Tierney has referred to the fact that pacity of INVAP to complete this project. I he visited their headquarters in Argentina. 678 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

Senator Tierney—I saw the reactor that is about. It remains Labor policy to throw they had built. 800 Australian scientists out of work by Senator FORSHAW—You did not see abandoning this research facility. the sort of reactor that INVAP has under- In the case of INVAP itself and the $10 taken to build at Lucas Heights. The only million, I am advised that this is a draw- location outside Argentina where this com- down facility to be drawn upon if necessary. pany has built a reactor is in Egypt, and there The activities under the contract for the is clear evidence on the record that it has had building of this reactor are fully funded by serious problems in getting that reactor up to the contract payments. I remind the opposi- full power—it has never been able to operate tion that INVAP is in a consortium with two at full power. Since those allegations were great Australian companies—John Holland made and since evidence was presented to Constructions and Evans Deakin—in the the committee, we have sought time and time construction of this reactor. The selection again from ANSTO and from Minister process for the contract was probably the Minchin—who happens to be in the chamber most rigorous ever undertaken in the world at the moment—detailed documentation such for a reactor of this kind, and the competition as the contract and a whole range of other was intense. material. We were denied access to that ma- It did fall to me, as the then minister, to terial on the grounds of commercial-in- decide whether or not to approve ANSTO’s confidence. entering into a contract with INVAP to build We now know, for instance, that, as this new reactor. I had to satisfy myself that Senator Carr has pointed out, there has had the process was indeed rigorous. I had every to be a $10 million allocation from the Ar- confidence because it was certainly true, as gentine government because of the problems Senator Forshaw said, that many in the sci- that INVAP were in before they won this entific world were surprised that INVAP was contract and since they have won this con- able to beat competition from Germany, tract. We also know that the intention was to France and Canada to win this contract. But I have a new reactor which had a cold source, had no doubt and nor did ANSTO. ANSTO a hot source and a thermal neutron source. has a lot riding on this, so it would have gone Since that contract was entered into, we have beyond the norms to ensure that this was a been informed that there will not be a hot rigorous process and that INVAP was capa- source constructed in this new research re- ble of completing. It was, and I had no actor. So we are not going to get world’s best doubts that ANSTO should enter into this practice as we were promised—far from it. contract with INVAP as a result of that in- And we have not been told what implications credibly rigorous process. that has for the design— (Time expired) Like Senator Tierney, I am disappointed Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— that, by this line of questioning, by hanging Minister for Finance and Administration) off what is a pathetic line of argument that a (4.16 p.m.)—It would appear that the Labor $10 million drawn-down facility supplied by Party, by virtue of the question that Senator the Argentine government to a company that Carr asked today, are intent on refighting the is in fact a state owned company—INVAP is last election campaign, to which they took a owned by a state government of Argentina— policy of abandoning our replacement re- it should draw this sort of attack. I think it is search reactor, thus rendering 800 people out a sad reflection by the Labor Party on the of a job. They seem to want to destroy the high-quality people we have at ANSTO who whole institution in this country of a research are working with INVAP to give this country facility and all the 800 jobs that go with that one of the world’s best research reactors and and the scientific capacity that that out- to ensure that Australia remains at the fore- standing facility could give us. That is what front of nuclear science and nuclear research this is about. It is not correct for Senator For- and the production of medical radioisotopes shaw to say that this is not about whether or which are so critical to this country. It is sad not we have a reactor. That is exactly what it that the Labor Party’s cheap attack today Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 679 reflects upon all the work that we have been into the arrangements for the letting of the doing to develop our relationship with South contract for this reactor and I sat in on a pre- America in general and with Argentina in vious inquiry by the Senate Economics Ref- particular, a relationship that I think prom- erences Committee into Lucas Heights in ises over the course of this century to pro- respect of the operation of the old reactor, so duce enormous benefits to both our nations I have heard these arguments put ad nauseam and regions. This must be causing enormous by representatives of the government in re- distress not only to the Argentine ambassa- spect of the reactor at Lucas Heights. dor and his people but to the nation of Ar- But the important point made by the min- gentina, which is going through great diffi- ister in his contribution—the point which I culty. If anything, we should be seeking to think ought to raise real concern amongst the do all we can to support Argentina as it goes Australian scientific community and the through this difficulty. Australian community generally—is that this I have also visited INVAP. It is an out- company is wholly backed by a state gov- standing facility. It does do work with insti- ernment in Argentina. We all know the state tutions like NASA, which has great confi- of the Argentine economy at the moment. It dence in its capacity to produce. I have every is an economy in absolute crisis. The cur- confidence in the capacity of INVAP to pro- rency has gone through the floor. There is duce what will be the world’s best research absolute and complete instability in the Ar- reactor. It has met every milestone that has gentine government—they have had five been set for it in relation to this contract and presidents, I think, in a period of about two will continue to do so. The contracts are in weeks—and it is a country in absolute chaos; Australian and US dollars; they are not af- yet we have let a contract to a company fected by the circumstances that Argentina based in a country that is backed by a gov- finds itself in. This is an international com- ernment that is bankrupt. We are questioning pany, as I said, backed by a state government the capacity of that company to deliver on its of Argentina. I am pleased that the Argentine contract. government, despite the difficulties it is When we sat through the Senate select having, is showing its strong support for this committee, we tried to get information about contract by this draw-down facility which the operations of this company and the rela- may well not be used at all. tionships it had with the state government in I would ask the opposition, in its review Argentina. We tried to get information about of its policies, to seriously look at the posi- what recovery clauses there were in the con- tion it has adopted in relation to this research tract to secure any moneys that might be reactor. The Labor Party got thumped again spent by the Australian government if this in the electorate of Hughes. Danna Vale company were not able to complete the con- wiped Labor off the face of the earth again. tract. On every occasion, we were denied The people of Hughes have, I think for a access to any information in relation to these third time, shown their strong support for contracts on the basis that they were com- this reactor contract. It is about time the La- mercial-in-confidence. We still do not know bor Party accepted the reality, accepted the if what the minister has just said is right— need for this reactor and started to support it. whether this company is separated enough Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL (New from the government and is capable of com- South Wales) (4.21 p.m.)—There are a num- pleting this contract. We still do not know if ber of points that need to be made or rein- the crisis in the Argentinian economy will forced in this debate. The first is that, as impact upon the capacity of this company to Senator Carr said, this is a very significant deliver on the contract, because we do not investment by the Australian government know what provisions are in the contract to and a new resource for our scientific com- safeguard our investment. munity—that is, a $300 million reactor to The minister says we should not worry too replace the old reactor at Lucas Heights. I sat much, because this company is doing the on the Senate select committee that inquired work in conjunction with two well-known 680 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 and reputable Australian companies. That is is a very welcome commitment from Senator true, but those two Australian companies are Vanstone, but it highlights to me how far the on the construction side of the contract and government needs to come in bringing the not the design side of it. If the company that Job Network up to a level where it will in has done the design, that is responsible for fact be delivering on the sorts of aspirations the functioning of the reactor and that is re- that the minister was speaking about. sponsible for the ultimate outcome falls over, The Job Network has already saved the I would suggest there is little hope of the two Howard government around $1 billion a year reputable Australian companies being able to in funding for services it provides to some of complete the contract, because they will not the most disadvantaged people in our society, know what they are building. There will be but as last week’s draft report from the Pro- no-one there to guide them about where to ductivity Commission highlighted the Job put the pipes and the reactor coil and what- Network has failed in many respects, par- ever else goes into these facilities. It is just a ticularly in assisting people who need the nonsense to suggest that we should take assistance the most: that is, people who are some comfort from the fact that there are two long-term unemployed and other job seekers reputable Australian companies linked up who have substantial barriers to employ- within that contract. ment. The reality is we have let a contract to a Centrelink refers these people to a Job company about whose capacity to deliver Network agency for help with getting work, there is grave doubt in the scientific commu- but what happens when they join that pro- nity. The reactor this company has built in vider? What we are hearing from the people Egypt has never operated, as Senator For- who have been inundating our office with shaw says, at full operating level. This com- telephone calls about Job Network is that pany has never proved itself in the interna- they get put into a too-hard basket. There are tional marketplace in its capacity and its de- real financial incentives for these providers signs. I would suggest to you, Minister, that to focus only on people who are the most job there is a big question mark over this com- ready and then to claim payments when pany’s capacity to actually deliver the out- those people get jobs. Agencies are claiming come in the contract that has been let. The thousands of dollars in payments, frequently onus ought to be on the government to come for employment that people secure by them- clean about what security there is for the selves without any assistance from their in- Australian community and the Australian tensive assistance provider. There is even a public in those contracts in respect of a guar- name for this in the industry: they call it antee to deliver on the contract. (Time ex- ‘creaming’. pired) There is also a name for an even more un- Question agreed to. savoury practice, which is called ‘parking’. Employment: Job Network Parking, which I referred to in my question, Senator CHERRY (Queensland) (4.27 is a practice where a Job Network provider p.m.)—I move: decides that someone is too much trouble to assist. Maybe the person needs help with the That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister for Family and Community cost of a training course; maybe they need a Services (Senator Vanstone) to a question without set of interview clothes or fares to get to in- notice asked by Senator Cherry today relating to terviews to canvass employers; or maybe Job Network and support for disadvantaged job they have social or cultural barriers and are seekers. just too hard. Under the present system, there In her response to my question, The Minister is no incentive for an intensive assistance for Family and Community Services, Senator provider to do anything more than have a Vanstone, made it clear that the government perfunctory interview with a job seeker was committed to ensuring that disadvan- every couple of months. For parking the job taged job seekers received personalised as- seeker that way, they still secure several sistance commensurate with their needs. This thousands of dollars in funding for each per- Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 681 son and, as long as their creaming ratios are NOTICES up in terms of getting job ready people into Presentation jobs, they will still get their contracts re- newed. The draft report of the Productivity Senator Ridgeway to move on the next Commission actually states: day of sitting: Parking may mean that the net effect of partici- That the Senate— pating in intensive assistance is negative for some (a) recognises the Community Development job seekers. Employment Projects (CDEP) Achieve- ment Awards as highlighting individual The Productivity Commission is saying that and organisational achievement in a some of the most vulnerable people in our scheme which now covers more than society, the people who need the assistance 36 000 Indigenous people working in most from the Job Network system, are actu- urban, rural and remote locations on a ally worse off after participating in intensive diverse range of projects and enterprises assistance. If intensive assistance is not bene- right across Australia; fiting these job seekers, who is it benefiting? (b) congratulates the following recipients of The answer is quite simple—the agencies National CDEP Achievement Awards for who claim the money for jam for signing the outstanding contributions they have those people up, and who then leave them in made to their communities and to the limbo. The commission’s draft report goes nation: on to say: Workforce Aboriginal Corporation, Job seekers may not know why or even that they Launceston, Tasmania—Training Award are being parked, leading to frustration and de- Elimatta Housing Aboriginal Corporation, motivation. That means that people whose hopes Coonamble, New South Wales—Commu- have been raised, people who have been told that nity Development Award intensive assistance is going to help them to get Ngunawal Aboriginal Corporation, Can- the work they desperately want, are then left on berra—Employment Award the shelf. East Gippsland ACDEP Co-op Ltd, This is the brave new world of market driven Bairnsdale, Victoria—Business Develop- employment services. There is no financial ment Award incentive for agencies to assist people who need it most. On the contrary, there are Barriekneal Housing and Community Ltd, Lightning Ridge, New South Wales— strong cash incentives for them to focus their Business Development Award time on the people who would probably get work anyway. Some agencies provide ex- Yarnteen Aboriginal and Torres Strait Is- cellent, flexible, innovative services to their landers Corporation, Newcastle, New intensive assistance clients but they do that South Wales—Innovation Award because it is the most ethical response. What Kurrachee Co-operative Society Ltd, we have long suspected, and what the draft Coraki, New South Wales—Cultural report from the Productivity Commission has Maintenance Award sadly confirmed, is that some organisations Lombadina Aboriginal Corporation, Lom- are less interested in ethical obligations than badina, Western Australia—Capacity they are in money in the bank. I would cer- Building Award tainly urge the government and Senator Glen Oliver, Tangentyere CDEP, Alice Vanstone, and also Mr Abbott, to ensure that, Springs—Individual Participant Award, in the current review of Job Network con- Male tracts, those agencies which are not deliver- Rosemary Lennon, Bungala CDEP, Port ing for their job seekers are denied contracts Augusta—Individual Participant Award, in the next term of Job Network contracts. Female Question agreed to. Wunan Regional Council, Kununurra, Western Australia—Regional Council Award for increased training opportuni- ties; and 682 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

(c) recognises that unemployment is an (b) required in debate or by notification to inter-generational problem in most the chair that the bill be considered in Indigenous communities and that CDEP committee of the whole. projects play a key role in restoring pride I seek leave to make a very short statement in Indigenous communities and indi- about the notice of motion I have just given. viduals as they see the tangible results and benefits of their work. Leave granted. Senator Payne to move on the next day Senator IAN MACDONALD—This of sitting: proposal, if carried, would allow the Senate That the time for the presentation of the report to dispense with the Committee of the Whole of the Legal and Constitutional Legislation stage on Thursday lunchtime bills except Committee on the provisions of the Proceeds of where any senator has circulated amend- Crime Bill 2002 and a related bill be extended to ments or requests to a bill or where any 10 April 2002. senator declares that he or she wants a com- Senator Greig to move on the next day of mittee stage. We already dispense with the sitting: committee stage on the appropriation bills That the Senate— except where amendments or requests are circulated. This proposal has the additional (a) notes the recent meeting of state safeguard of restoring the committee stage at attorneys-general and, in particular, notes the willingness by the state the request of any senator, but overall it attorneys-general to transfer their powers should lead to the smoother handling of non- to have property issues for de facto controversial bills. It is a trial for this period couples settled under federal jurisdiction of sittings only but, if senators are happy in the Family Court; and with its operation, it could become a regular (b) calls on the Government in bringing feature of Thursday lunchtime debates. forward legislation on this matter to COMMITTEES ensure that: Selection of Bills Committee (i) such federal legislation will in no way limit existing rights under state Report legislation, Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (4.33 (ii) any federal legislation recognises the p.m.)—At the request of Senator Calvert, I disadvantages endured by de facto present the first report for 2002 of the Selec- couples, and tion of Bills Committee. (iii) an equitable legislative regime is Ordered that the report be adopted. proposed which eliminates any Senator McGAURAN—I seek leave to disadvantage or discrimination against all de facto couples whether have the report incorporated in Hansard. they are of the same or opposite sex. Leave granted. Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- The report read as follows— sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- tion) (4.30 p.m.)—I give notice that, on the SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE next day of sitting, I shall move: REPORT NO. 1 OF 2002 That any bill considered from 12.45 pm till not 1. The committee met on Tuesday, 12 March later than 2 pm on Thursday, 14 March 2002 and 2002. Thursday, 21 March 2002 shall not be considered in committee of the whole, unless, prior to the 2. The committee resolved to recommend— resolution of the question for the second reading, any senator has: (a) That the provisions of the following bills be referred to a committee as fol- (a) circulated in the Senate a proposed lows: amendment or request for amendment of the bill; or Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 683

Bill title Stage at Legislation Reporting Migration Legislation Amendment (Migra- which Committee date tion Agents) Bill 2002 referred Ministers of State Amendment Bill 2002 Airports Amend- Immediately Rural and 16 May Protection of the Sea (Prevention of Pollu- ment Bill 2002 Regional 2002 tion from Ships) Amendment Bill 2002 (see appendix 1 Affairs and for statement of Transport Radiocommunications (Transmitter Licence reasons for refer- Tax) Amendment Bill 2002 ral) Regional Forest Agreements Bill 2002 Taxation Laws Immediately Economics 20 March Road Transport Charges (Australian Capital Amendment 2002 Territory) Amendment Bill 2002 (Superannuation) Bill (No. 1) 2002 Interstate Road Transport Charge Amend- (see appendix 2 ment Bill 2002 for statement of Sex Discrimination Amendment (Pregnancy reasons for refer- and Work) Bill 2002 ral) States Grants (Primary and Secondary Edu- Income Tax (Su- cation Assistance) Amendment Bill 2002 perannuation Student Assistance Amendment Bill 2002 Payments With- holding Tax) Bill Superannuation Legislation (Commonwealth 2002 (see appen- Employment) Repeal and Amendment Bill dix 2 for statement 2002 of reasons for Taxation Laws Amendment (Film Incen- referral) tives) Bill 2002 Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 1) 2002 (b) That the following bills not be referred Therapeutic Goods Amendment (Medical to committees: Devices) Bill 2002 Australian Citizenship Legislation Amend- Therapeutic Goods (Charges) Amendment ment Bill 2002 Bill 2002 Coal Industry Repeal (Validation of Procla- Therapeutic Goods Amendment Bill (No. 1) mation) Bill 2002 2002 Commonwealth Inscribed Stock Amendment Transport and Regional Services Legislation Bill 2002 Amendment (Application of Criminal Code) Criminal Code Amendment (Anti-hoax and Bill 2002 Other Measures) Bill 2002 Veterans’ Affairs Legislation Amendment Disability Discrimination Amendment Bill (Further Budget 2000 and Other Measures) 2002 Bill 2002 Disability Services Amendment (Improved The committee recommends accordingly. Quality Assurance) Bill 2002 3. The committee deferred consideration of the Family and Community Services Legislation following bills: Amendment (Further Simplification of Inter- Bills deferred from meeting of 12 March 2002 national Payments) Bill 2002 Space Activities Amendment Bill 2002 Financial Services Reform (Consequential Provisions) Bill 2002 Trade Practices Amendment (Small Business Protection) Bill 2002 Higher Education Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 1) 2002 Workplace Relations Amendment (Fair Dis- missal) Bill 2002 Higher Education Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 2) 2002 Workplace Relations Amendment (Fair Ter- mination) Bill 2002 Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Com- mission Amendment Bill 2002 Workplace Relations Amendment (Genuine Bargaining) Bill 2002 Marriage Amendment Bill 2002 Workplace Relations Amendment (Prohibi- Migration Agents Registration Application tion of Compulsory Union Fees) Bill 2002 Charge Amendment Bill 2002 684 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

Workplace Relations Amendment (Secret Possible hearing date(s): Ballots for Protected Action) Bill 2002 Possible reporting date: As soon as practicable. Paul Calvert (signed) Vicki Bourne Chair Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member 13 March 2002. ————— Appendix 1 Appendix 2 Proposal to refer a bill to a committee Proposal to refer a bill to a committee Name of Bill: Airports Amendment Bill 2002 Name of Bill: Reasons for referral/principal issues for consid- Taxation Laws Amendment (Superannuation) Bill eration: (No. 1) 2002 This Bill excludes airports other than core regu- Income Tax (Superannuation Payments With- lated airports and airports specified in the Regu- holding Tax) Bill 2002 lations from ownership restrictions which cur- rently apply under the Airports Act 1996 (“the Reasons for referral/principal issues for consid- Act”). These ownership restrictions play an Im- eration: portant role in preventing anti-competitive prac- 1 This bill imposes a new tax and therefore tices by airline operators and clear justification need to gain a better understanding of the must be demonstrated for any relaxation of these purposes of the legislation. restrictions. The Government cites its commit- 2. To allow affected parties an opportunity to ment to facilitate the Tesna consortium’s bid for put their views to the committee. Ansett as one of the two primary justifications for this legislative change and for the lack of consul- Possible submission or evidence from: tation in relation thereto. Not only were the pro- Australian Taxation Office posed amendments to the Act strictly unnecessary Treasury for the Tesna bid to proceed, that bid has now been abandoned. In these circumstances, justifi- Department of Immigration and Multicultural and cation for the proposed amendments must be re- Indigenous Affairs considered following an extensive consultation Australia/United States Chamber of Commerce process. Committee to which bill is to be referred: Select Possible submission or evidence from: Committee on Superannuation (if re-established) Airport Lessee Companies Possible hearing date(s): Tuesday, 19 March 2002 Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association of Aus- Possible reporting date: Wednesday, 20 March tralia 2002 (signed) Airservices Australia Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member Civil Aviation Safety Authority NOTICES Air Safety Australia Presentation Board of Airline Representatives of Australia Inc Senator Brown to move on the next day General Aviation Professional Association Inc of sitting: Australian Ultralight Federation That the Senate conveys to His Honour Justice Bankstown Airport Community and Environment Michael Kirby, and to the Chief Justice of the Forum High Court, the Senate’s profound apology for the Western Sydney Alliance breach of standing orders by Senator Heffernan on 12 March 2002. Australian Competition and Consumer Commis- sion Senator Brown to move on Tuesday, 19 March 2002: National Competition Council That the Senate considers that, if Basslink Productivity Commission proceeds, the associated power lines in Victoria Committee to which bill is to be referred: Rural should be placed underground. and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Senator Brown to move on Wednesday, Committee 20 March 2002: Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 685

That the Senate— It is worth mentioning that argument in (a) expresses its concern about reports that support of changing the terms as proposed two Australians, amongst a party of ten was made and, in the course of making that members of Falun Gong arrested by argument, a document, which was a letter police in Beijing on 8 March 2002, were from the Leader of the Opposition in the beaten by the police; and other place, Mr Simon Crean, to the Minister (b) calls on the Australian Government to for Defence, Senator Hill, was tabled by obtain an explanation from China and to government senators. This was a letter—and respond appropriately, to ensure it is not appropriate for me to go into the de- Australians are not abused in similar tails of it—in which the Leader of the Oppo- circumstances in the future. sition forwarded to the defence minister a BUSINESS substantial body of documents from a former Rearrangement Foreign Affairs officer and now research Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- officer at the Australian National University sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- about allegations concerning the conduct of tion) (4.36 p.m.)—by leave—In relation to a the Australian Navy with respect to refugees. government document tabled earlier today, I I do imagine that Senator Hill will re- move: spond in the appropriate manner to Mr That consideration of government documents Crean. I do not imagine that this matter, not be proceeded with today, and that business coming informally as it has to the committee, continue till 7.20 p.m. is in any way an answer to Mr Crean re- Question agreed to. garding the letter he has sent. However, the committee was of the view that the terms of COMMITTEES reference probably embraced the scope that A Certain Maritime Incident Committee is now being sought but on balance thought Variation of Reference that there was no reason why it should not be Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (4.37 made explicit and, as a consequence, we p.m.)—by leave—I move: were unanimous in supporting the motion. That the resolution of the Senate of 13 Febru- It is, however, appropriate for me to men- ary 2002 appointing the Select Committee on a tion at this point that the reporting date of the Certain Maritime Incident be amended as follows: committee is, from my recollection, 16 May, After paragraph (1)(b), insert: and this extension to the terms of reference does impose more pressure on the commit- (c) operational procedures observed by the tee. I mention it not because we are seeking, Royal Australian Navy and by relevant or have even considered seeking, an exten- Commonwealth agencies to ensure the sion of time for the reporting date—we will safety of asylum seekers on vessels certainly try to meet that date—but just to entering or attempting to enter Australian waters. draw the chamber’s attention to the fact that it does place more pressure on the committee Senator COOK (Western Australia) (4.38 to complete its work timetable expeditiously. p.m.)—by leave—I draw the attention of the I also note that, in answer to a question from chamber to the fact that I am the chairman of Senator Stott Despoja yesterday, the Minister the Select Committee on a Certain Maritime for Defence, Senator Hill, said, in relation to Incident. The committee was advised, and the committee—and I quote: extended all due courtesy, by Senator Mason at its private meeting yesterday that this ... the government believes it is simply a political hatchet job connived between the Australian change to the terms of reference was thought Democrats and the ALP to achieve a political to be desirable. I indicate that, after consid- outcome that they might as well state before the eration of the additional terms that have been outset. outlined in this motion, the committee was That seems to suggest that the government’s unanimous in its view that it would support view of this committee is less than flattering. the changes in those terms. I now note that a government senator has 686 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 moved to change the committee’s terms of select committee on the Lindeberg griev- reference. The committee has accepted that ance, postponed till 19 March 2002. proposal, and one hopes that the chamber General business notice of motion no. 1 follows suit by voting for it. If the chamber standing in the name of the Leader of the does, all senators who are members of the Australian Democrats (Senator Stott government will have the opportunity to vote Despoja) for today, relating to a request to for these terms of reference. I think it is fair the Inspector-General of Intelligence and to say that that is at odds with the sentiment Security to investigate certain actions in relation to the MV Tampa, postponed till expressed by the Minister for Defence about 19 March 2002. the committee. I make that observation be- cause I think it is a pertinent one in terms of General business notice of motion no. 24 standing in the name of Senator Bourne for how the committee should be seen. The gov- today, relating to measures to resolve ten- ernment certainly does recognise the com- sions between India and Pakistan, post- mittee and has worked seriously and—I put poned till 19 March 2002. it in these terms—constructively in order to General business notice of motion no. 31 set up the inquiry. The attack made by standing in the name of Senator Allison for Senator Hill yesterday should be seen per- today, proposing an order for the produc- haps as an aberration of that. tion of documents by the Minister for De- However, I do hope that this newfound fence (Senator Hill), postponed till 14 constructive approach by those on the gov- March 2002. ernment side extends to the cabinet, who General business notice of motion no. 2 have apparently put a ban on some witnesses standing in the name of Senator Allison for attending this inquiry, should they be invited. today, relating to the establishment of a At this stage I have no official information select committee on superannuation, post- before me as to the exact nature of the cabi- poned till 14 March 2002. net decision. There is apparently no cabinet General business notice of motion no. 32 press release setting out the details. We do standing in the name of Senator Carr for today, proposing an order for the produc- have some press reports which claim to be tion of documents by the Minister for authoritative and which do quote spokesmen Health and Ageing (Senator Patterson), for the government, but there is nothing offi- postponed till 14 March 2002. cial on the record. One hopes that this new- LEAVE OF ABSENCE found approach by the government in con- structively seeking to amend this commit- Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (4.44 tee’s terms of reference does extend as well p.m.)—by leave—I move: to Monday evening’s apparent announce- That leave of absence be granted to Senator ment about witnesses being able to attend Gibbs for the period 14 March 2002 to 21 March any hearings of this committee. 2002, on account of parliamentary business over- seas. Having made those remarks, I have no dif- ficulty at all in supporting Senator Brett Ma- Question agreed to. son’s motion which has been moved by MINISTERS OF STATE (POST- Senator McGauran, and I commend it to the RETIREMENT EMPLOYMENT Senate. RESTRICTIONS) BILL 2002 Question agreed to. First Reading NOTICES Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- Postponement tralia—Leader of the Australian Democrats) (4.45 p.m.)—I move: Items of business were postponed as fol- lows: That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for an Act to regulate certain post-retirement em- General business notice of motion no. 14 ployment of Ministers of State, and for related standing in the name of Senator Harris for purposes. today, relating to the establishment of a Question agreed to. Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 687

Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- taken a position as a part-time consultant to the tralia—Leader of the Australian Democrats) Royal Australian College of General Practitio- (4.45 p.m.)—I move: ners. That this bill may proceed without formalities The community is rightly concerned about the and be now read a first time. role these former ministers will play in these or- ganisations. Will they be used to facilitate prefer- Question agreed to. ential treatment or privileged access to Govern- Bill read a first time. ment? Their use as advisers or lobbyists can only Second Reading reduce public confidence in the independence and impartiality of the decision-making processes of Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- government. tralia—Leader of the Australian Democrats) This behaviour is not tolerated in other democra- (4.46 p.m.)—I move: cies and should not be tolerated here. In the That this bill be now read a second time. United States of America, former officers and I seek leave to have the second reading employees of the executive branch are subject to a range of restrictions. speech incorporated in Hansard. They face a 2 year restriction on lobbying in their Leave granted. former area of responsibility. Failure to comply The speech read as follows— with this restriction carries a maximum five-year This Bill deals with the ongoing furore sur- jail term. rounding post-ministerial employment. Revela- The Canadian Conflict of Interest and Post- tions that senior Government ministers who re- Employment Code for Public Office Holders tired at the last election took up lucrative consul- (1994) sets out detailed restrictions on ministers tancies in areas related to their ministerial respon- and other public office holders both before and sibilities have prompted a public outcry. The after leaving office. Government stands by its policy of failing to re- The UK Ministerial Code requires Ministers to store public confidence in the integrity of ministe- seek advice from the independent Advisory rial office holders. Committee on Business Appointment about any It is the Government’s failure to act on this issue appointments they may wish to accept within two that has motivated this Private Senator’s Bill. The years of ceasing to be a Minister. Government should introduce its own legislation The Democrats’ Bill draws on these international to address matters relating to the conduct of its precedents, but also takes into account the ex- own ministers. That has not occurred. This Bill pectations of the Australian community and the sets out standards that the Government should past conduct of Australian ministers. have implemented some time ago to bring Aus- The Bill applies to ministers and senior ministe- tralia into line with the standards that apply in rial advisers. It has three objectives: democracies throughout the world. Firstly, to ensure that Ministers and ministerial Former Minister for Defence, Peter Reith, walked advisers shall not act after they leave office in straight into a consultancy for Tenix Defence such a manner as to take improper advantage of Systems after leaving Parliament. The Minister their previous office. was privy to top secret information about the needs, capabilities and weaknesses of the Com- Secondly, to enhance public confidence in the monwealth. Australia’s national security is at risk integrity of ministerial office holders and the in- when a recently retired Minister for Defence sells dependence of the decision-making processes of his services to a private firm in the defence in- government by establishing clear rules of conduct dustry. regarding the post-employment practices of Min- isters and ministerial advisers. Resolving conflicts of interest is an ongoing re- quirement. It is not an issue that only applies Thirdly, to eliminate the possibility of preferential when the office is held. Ministers are given treatment or privileged access to government privileged information to allow them to discharge being obtained from or through Ministers and their duties as servants of the people, not to en- ministerial advisers after they have left office. able them to pursue private contracts for personal In pursuit of these objectives, the Bill places re- financial gain. strictions on Ministers and ministerial advisers In a similar vein, former Minister for Finance, both before and after leaving office. John Fahey, has taken a position with investment Prior to retirement, section 5 of the Bill prevents bank JP Morgan. Former Minister Wooldridge has Ministers and ministerial advisers from allowing 688 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 themselves to be influenced in the conduct of Failure to comply with these restrictions will con- their official duties and responsibilities by plans stitute an offence punishable by two years impris- for or offers of employment or other remuneration onment or a fine not exceeding $250 000. These for when they leave office. penalties are a reflection of the very serious na- This would prevent a Minister from allocating ture of this issue and are within the scope of in- funds to, or making decisions in favour of, a par- ternational precedent. It is perfectly appropriate ticular organisation prior to leaving office with a that the integrity of our political system be de- view to securing employment with that organisa- fended by the full force of the law. tion. We have seen recently that the mere suspi- This Bill is a necessary response to a matter of cion of such activity is damaging to public confi- great community concern. It draws on credible dence in the integrity of ministerial office- international precedents. Over time, the recent holders. There has been intense scrutiny of the scandals may fade from public view but if the decision by Dr Wooldridge to grant $5 million of underlying structural problems remain unad- public funds to the Royal Australian College of dressed, the same problems will arise again and General Practitioners prior to stepping down as again. On behalf of the Australian Democrats, we Minister. commend this Bill to the Senate and urge the If this Bill were enacted, Ministers and their ad- Government to support it to finally force its Min- visers would know that they would face the full isters to observe proper standards in relation to sanctions of the criminal law if they allowed post-ministerial employment. themselves to be influenced in their duties by the Senator STOTT DESPOJA—I seek prospect of future employment. Favouritism from leave to continue my remarks later. a Minister in return for post-ministerial employ- ment is nothing short of corruption. This Bill Leave granted; debate adjourned. would substantially lessen the potential for such HUMAN RIGHTS: TIBET largesse by impressing upon Ministers and their Senator BOURNE (New South Wales) advisers how seriously such conduct is taken by (4.46 p.m.)—I move: the community. In addition to these pre-retirement restrictions, That the Senate— there is a range of post-retirement restrictions. (a) recalls its resolutions on Tibet passed on The Bill provides for a two-year cooling-off pe- 6 December 1990 and 18 September riod after ministers and their advisers cease to 1996; hold office. During this time, they are prohibited (b) notes: from engaging in three broad classes of activity. (i) continued repression of religious Firstly, they must not provide advice for profit or freedom in Tibet and persecution of commercial advantage on the work of their for- Tibetan nuns and monks, mer department and its agencies. (ii) ongoing reports of human rights Secondly, they must not accept employment or abuses against the Tibetan people by enter in consultancy agreements with any entity the People’s Republic of China, and with which the department had significant deal- (iii) the impact of education, economic ings in the previous two years. and migration policies in the Tibetan Thirdly, they must not make representations for Autonomous Region on Tibetan profit to the relevant department and its agencies language and culture; on behalf of any person. (c) further notes: There are a number of important exceptions (i) the Dalai Lama’s important role as which allow former ministers and their advisers one of the world’s most eminent and to work for a range of organisations. They can respected spiritual leaders, work for charitable organisations, the Common- wealth, political parties and, with the approval of (ii) the Dalai Lama’s affirmation of a the Minister for Foreign Affairs, international commitment to non-violence and organisations and foreign governments. negotiation to solve conflict, as exemplified in His Holiness’ receipt The restrictions in this Bill are carefully measured of the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, and to strike the right balance between allowing for- mer ministers and their advisers to make an on- (iii) the Dalai Lama’s successful visit to going contribution to public life while not acting Australia in 1996 and the ongoing improperly in terms of their position of privilege. interest of many Australians in his teachings; and Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 689

(d) requests the President of the Senate, in taking an appointment that is directly related her capacity as a Presiding Officer of the to his or her portfolio for five years from the Joint House Department, to take the date of resignation. necessary action to allow the Dalai Lama to give a televised address in the Great Senator Boswell—What about if it is a Hall. doctor? Would a doctor be able to go back Question agreed to. into practice? FORMER PARLIAMENTARIANS: Senator BROWN—Yes, the doctor BUSINESS APPOINTMENTS would be able to practice in his or her own right. This is a business appointment. It Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (4.47 would not allow a doctor, who had been a p.m.)—I ask that general business notice of minister, to work as a consultant with a drug motion No. 30 standing in my name for to- company or a medical lobbying organisation. day that relates to business appointments of This debate brings us to the recent taking up ministers after leaving office be taken as a of business opportunities by the former formal motion. Minister for Health, Dr Wooldridge, and also The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT the former Minister for Defence, Mr Reith. (Senator Watson)—Is there any objection to This is a problem because the reach of the this motion being taken as formal? corporate sector and the ability of the corpo- Senator Mackay—Yes. I need to indicate rate sector to lobby in parliament is way out that the leader of the opposition, Senator of kilter with the ability of the rest of the Faulkner, wishes to be in the chamber for populace in being able to have their cases this debate. I draw your attention to the state heard. This is compounded when ministers, of the chamber. who have been subject to a lobby during The ACTING DEPUTY PRESI- their period of office, subsequently are DENT—There is no debate. If you have ob- tempted to take up a monetary return for a jected to it being formal, I declare that it is business arrangement with the very lobbyists not formal. Leave has not been granted, un- who have been in their office. It leads, fortunately, Senator Brown, to declare your frankly, to the ability for corruption because motion formal. a minister can say, ‘Wink, wink, if I get a job with you after I leave office, I will do this for Suspension of Standing Orders you now.’ Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (4.48 Secondly, it leads to the position where a p.m.)—Pursuant to contingent notice, I minister can resign and become a lobbyist move: for a group and lobby his or her colleagues That so much of the standing orders be sus- who remain in office. That undoubtedly pended as would prevent Senator Brown moving gives them an entrée and an influence, which a motion relating to the conduct of the business of is quite untoward, as a lobbyist. Effectively, the Senate, namely a motion to give precedence to general business notice of motion No. 30. in both these cases, the person who has been the minister is using the office of minister to The motion I have put before the Senate is get monetary reward. We need to prevent that the Senate notes the ministerial code in that from occurring and we certainly need to the United Kingdom. This includes a system prevent it from being extended. In the United that deals with the acceptance of appoint- Kingdom, amongst other things in the min- ments by a minister after leaving office. It isterial code, the system has established an calls on the government, firstly, to imple- advisory committee on business appoint- ment an advisory committee on business ap- ments. Ex-ministers are expected to go to pointments, like that in the United Kingdom, that advisory committee when they take up from which a minister would be required to postministerial business appointments to see seek advice before accepting business ap- if it is consistent with the ministerial code, pointments within five years from the date which is meant to prevent ministers being in after which he or she ceased to be a minister. the compromising position of using their Secondly, it would ban any minister from 690 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 contacts to the advantage of a sectional inter- lion grant to the Royal Australian College of est in the community. General Practitioners, which has been the On the information I have, on at least 34 subject of controversy and scandal in recent occasions in recent years the advisory board days. in the United Kingdom has either told an ex- If you look at international experience, minister not to take an appointment or has you can see under chapter 11 of the US advised them to change the terms of that ap- Criminal Code that employees of the execu- pointment. In both the US and the United tive branch are banned from any attempt to Kingdom, ministers are expected not to take lobby government for two years after they such appointments at all within one or two leave their job, with a penalty of up to two years of their resignation. The Greens do not years in jail. In Britain, former ministers face believe that that is long enough. That is why a two-year ban on taking up employment there is a five-year stricture involved in this related to their past roles. They have an in- motion. It is an extremely well thought out dependent body, the Advisory Committee on motion. It is based on overseas practice, but Business Appointments, examining ap- extends it and makes it better. I commend it pointments. It sounds like a tough regime in to the Senate. those countries; it is not a particularly tough Senator FAULKNER (New South regime. What Simon Crean has proposed on Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- behalf of the Labor Party—a 12-month pe- ate) (4.53 p.m.)—Senator Brown tries to riod after ceasing to be a minister where a make a case for urgency in relation to the minister cannot take employment with or act issue of postministerial career appointments as an adviser to or be a consultant to any and I think he does make a case. This is an company or business interest with which urgent matter. The issue for the Senate this they have had official dealings as minister in afternoon is to determine whether it is more their past 12 months in office—is, we be- urgent than the pressing legislation program lieve, the way to go. We, of course, an- that we have before us, particularly when, as nounced this before Dr Wooldridge’s latest Senator Brown would be the first to ac- shenanigans were exposed to the public. We knowledge, this can be done at the drop of a think that ministers should be required to hat by the Prime Minister. This is within the undertake that, on leaving office, they will gift of the Prime Minister. not take personal advantage of information to which they have had access as a minister Senator Brown—I would advise you not where that information is not generally to hold your breath, Senator Faulkner. available to the public. That is a very impor- Senator FAULKNER—Thank you, tant principle. Senator Brown. You are always good for Senator Brown is right to say that this is a medical advice. The truth is Australia has matter of urgency. I think he is wrong to say fallen behind the rest of the world when it that this matter should take priority over comes to regulating the behaviour of former these other pressing issues before the cham- ministers. There is no doubt about that and ber, but it needs to be dealt with. All I say is the situation has become worse recently. We that it should not be dealt with now by the have had the very prominent cases of former Senate because at the end of the day the re- Minister Reith’s post-ministerial career and sponsibility falls on the Prime Minister and the former health minister, Dr Wooldridge’s on the executive government to do some- post-ministerial career. The less said about thing about this, particularly in the light of those careers in terms of appropriate behav- the behaviour of former ministers Reith and iour the better because, frankly, any reason- Wooldridge. Former Minister Fahey is able person would have to be absolutely dis- probably in a different category, but Reith satisfied with what we have seen—Minister and Wooldridge have behaved disgracefully. Reith taking employment as a consultant to a very prominent company in the defence area Senator Robert Ray—They have be- and, of course, the disgraceful ministerial haved disgracefully. behaviour of Dr Wooldridge in the $5 mil- Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 691

Senator FAULKNER—That is true, larly among the public. As legislators, I think Senator Ray. (Time expired) we have to work particularly hard to reinstall Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- the faith of the public and the community in tralia—Leader of the Australian Democrats) politicians and in our political institutions. (4.58 p.m.)—The Australian Democrats Recent examples do very little to ensure that. would have been quite happy for this vote to There is an issue in relation to accountability, proceed today. We acknowledge what Sena- ethics and public confidence. tor Brown is hoping to achieve through his Senator Murray—And urgency. motion. However, we do not agree with the Senator STOTT DESPOJA—And ur- notion of a five-year cooling-off period. On gency. I guess that goes to the heart of the behalf of the Australian Democrats, I have debate, Senator Murray, you are right. We just introduced a private members bill, the have heard very little from this government Ministers of State (Post-Retirement Em- as to why we should not meet the standards ployment Restrictions) Bill 2002, in the set in other industrialised countries. There name of Senator Murray and in my name, has been no rational argument come forth which seeks to legislate for an enforceable, from the Prime Minister except that he be- two-year cooling-off period. We have heard lieves that people should have the right to go in the recent remarks of Senator Faulkner the out and pursue a career in the private sector, policy position of the Labor Party and I ac- make money and utilise the skills that we knowledge it is a 12-month cooling-off pe- apparently acquire through public office and riod. I seek clarification as to whether or not in our service as politicians. that is a legislative requirement; that is, is it enforceable? Is it not simply a code of con- No-one is saying that former ministers duct that has been proposed by the opposi- cannot go out and be involved in lobbying or tion? Senator Brown talks about five years. consultancy and utilise those very general, We do not believe that is a particularly rea- maybe even specific, skills that they pick up sonable scenario. We say that because you as a consequence of being a minister or have heard of international precedents that member of parliament, but they cannot exer- have been referred to in the Senate this after- cise those skills in that particular area for noon. which they were previously responsible. We know all too well in this place that ministers Senator Faulkner interjecting— and, indeed, increasingly, senior ministerial Senator STOTT DESPOJA—Thank advisers do have access to secretive and sen- you, Senator Faulkner. The Democrats have sitive information. They do have information put forward a private senator’s bill that is that the rest of us, and certainly the public, based on international precedents, including are not privy to. I think we have to recognise the UK, Canada and the United States. We that they are charged with a particular re- have heard very little if nothing at all from sponsibility and we should expect nothing the government. I am still waiting to hear less than the highest standards of account- strong, rational reasons from the Prime Min- ability from these men and women. ister and the coalition as to why there should I think the time has come for the cooling- not be an enforceable cooling-off period for off period and the accountability provi- former ministers and also former senior sions—certainly the ones that the Democrats ministerial advisers before they can take up have suggested. The community recognises work—that is, a consulting or lobbying posi- that fact. Increasingly, politicians in the par- tion—in an area for which they were directly liament recognise that fact. Once again, the and previously responsible. Democrats, with a keen interest in account- There are a couple of issues at stake here, ability, have decided to act on this issue and some of which have been recognised already, put forward what we believe is a moderate related to accountability. The recent exam- proposal which relates to the postretirement ples, to which people have referred, have employment opportunities of ministers and raised serious ethical questions not just senior ministerial advisers. There are some among members of parliament but particu- notable exemptions. I commend this bill to 692 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 members of the Senate for reading. If people period should be when you start to forget— have better ideas on this—and certainly 12 months or two years et cetera—depends Senator Brown has put forward his idea; the on the individual. In most cases, if people Democrats disagree that the opposition’s behave ethically, one to two years is usually proposal is the way to go—they can raise a good clearing time. them. At least we are starting this debate. It We have also had serious doubts about is now time for some action from the gov- how ethical it is to take a job with an organi- ernment. We are quite happy to proceed with sation having promised them $5 million a the motion before us, but even better we week before the election was called. People have a private senator’s bill on the Notice say that that decision was made for a range Paper with which we could proceed now. of reasons. We are not alleging it was made (Time expired) to get the person a job. But having made that Senator ROBERT RAY (Victoria) (5.03 decision to help that organisation you should p.m.)—I was pleased to hear the Democrats not, as ex-minister for health, go along and view because it was only a few years ago become a lobbyist or adviser to that particu- that I had to deal with a problem of a Demo- lar body. It is a matter of how tightly con- crat senator knocking a hole through their strained it is. electorate office wall into their business so Senator Brown wants to move a motion that the person would not have to go around today to make it a five-year period. I think the corner to go from one to other. That was that is a little too long. I would prefer the really enterprising, as I recall. Prime Minister to set standards on this matter Senator Murray—That puts the lie to the and have them enforced. There are ways of idea that Democrats are not in business. enforcing them. If a defence minister imme- Senator ROBERT RAY—That is right; diately went and worked for a contractor, the exactly. I did say the other day in the context government could say that it will not do of this sort of debate that no-one wants to business with that contractor until the 12 discourage former parliamentarians going months is up. If you legislate for this, then out into a new career. Often I have described you put the matter in the hands of courts and this place as the most expensive tertiary in- we will get all sorts of interpretations that stitution in the country—it basically is. Peo- probably none of us would want and that ple learn and pick up a whole range of skills probably would be a great waste of taxpay- here that make them in some way marketable ers’ money. I think in the end that this is a out there in the work force. The obverse side standard much better set by the Prime Min- of that is, of course, that many of our ex- ister. There are oodles of examples in every parliamentarians make shortlists and because political party, including the Democrats, they were once politicians they get scrubbed where people have left this place and gone so no-one will get offended. It should be un- into another career. We have to precisely derstood that it does work both ways. define what we mean. We have to define it in advance. You cannot have this suddenly now This is not an argument about whether apply to two or three colleagues who have people should be able to go into another ca- left this place and got jobs. What they have reer. It is not even an argument about done is obey the rules as they currently exist. whether they can go into a career that is aligned with their expertise. It is simply the I think that once a bit of the aggro goes waiting period before going into a speciality. out of this, once a bit of the politicisation It is very tough to be a minister for defence goes out of this issue, the Prime Minister and then within two months represent the should have a rethink and start to develop largest defence contractor in this country. We principles that he can announce at a later say that that is just a little to tightly aligned. time when it is not a matter of political con- Even if you tried to put up Chinese walls in troversy—mid-term or somewhere like that. your own mind, it is very hard to forget the Let us face it—we do not want the only al- knowledge you have picked up in the previ- ternative for ex-politicians to be that you ous few months in the portfolio. Whether the have to take a diplomatic post. I always be- Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 693 lieve it is good to have two or three politi- although, there seems to be a split in the La- cians in diplomatic posts. They often do the bor camp between Senator Ray and Senator job very well. There have been very few Faulkner on Labor’s position. Senator Faulk- failures over the years. It also keeps the De- ner indicated that Mr Crean had a view. I partment of Foreign Affairs and Trade on its suspect that, without legislating or moving toes. But I think we are at the absolute motions here, the Labor Party will have very maximum at the moment—we would need a good opportunities to put this principle into politician to retire before we could appoint effect. Senator Faulkner, regrettably you hold another one. government in every state in Australia—all Senator Faulkner—That is very unfair to Labor governments—so you and Mr Crean Senator Herron. will be able to ensure that retiring Labor ministers do as he suggests we should do Senator ROBERT RAY—No. Obvi- federally. That will be a good test of the La- ously, if the Ambassador to Ireland and the bor Party’s position on this matter. The gov- Holy Sea retires we would have an appropri- ernment opposes the motion to suspend ate gap for Senator Herron. Again, that standing orders. would be a waste of his ability if he took up that post. Nevertheless, he may well do so— Senator LUDWIG (Queensland) (5.10 good luck. I do not criticise that but I do not p.m.)—Let me bring us up to date with want that as the only alternative: to leave this where we are in the debate. Senator Brown is place and vegetate, to leave this place with a seeking the suspension of standing orders government patronage job—that should not and to do so he has to justify the urgency of be the only alternative. This can be very the motion before us. We should not travel simply dealt with by defining how closely too far into the merits of the case other than aligned a postparliamentary career is with using collateral matters to explain why the your previous job. motion requires urgency. So far as Senator Brown went to those matters, I think it is fair Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- to say he dealt collaterally with the reasons sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- and the justification of why it is an important tion) (5.08 p.m.)—The motion before us is to matter, even an urgent matter. However, as suspend standing orders to determine the Senator Faulkner and Senator Ray out- urgency of this particular motion. As all lined—and even Senator Macdonald towards other speakers have said, I think, the urgency the middle part, but he got a little clouded— has not been demonstrated and the govern- there are a number of other important matters ment has many other pressing bills that need that exceed this matter. to be dealt with today, not the least of which is the RFA Bill—which we are desperately As Manager of Opposition Business, I trying to get to a vote. Neither the parliament remind the Senate that the RFA bill is the nor successive governments have imposed first bill before us and that we are still deal- constraints on former ministers as to what ing with it. We must allow sufficient time for their employment should be after taking up it to proceed. It is an important bill and it office. It has been left to the judgement of does need to be dealt with. Minister Mac- individuals. donald, having carriage of that bill, can cer- tainly attest to that. In fact, the minister can There is no reason to think that former also assist in that process by ensuring that ministers from either side of politics have during the committee stage his comments are abused the public trust by taking unfair ad- kept to a minimum—that is, to only respond vantage of their past positions. There is no to questions from Senator Brown and the evidence of an individual taking advantage like. I implore all of those involved in the of their past positions. There is also no rea- committee stage of the RFA bill to acknowl- son to doubt that former ministers would act edge that there is a time and a place to put with the utmost propriety. The government the issues, and to deal with them expedi- does not consider that it is reasonable for tiously rather than with longwinded explana- former ministers to be subject to a five-year tions that may be a political solution, but we prohibition on employment opportunities; 694 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 are talking about the committee stage in re- COMMITTEES lation to more technical aspects of the bill. If Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade all parties confine themselves to that we may References Committee be able to get through the RFA bill and onto the other parts of the legislative program so Reference we can go home in the autumn sitting at Senator HOGG (Queensland) (5.16 some point. p.m.)—I move: Senator Brown, I note that your motion is (1) That the following matter be referred to urgent, but it is not as urgent as my interest the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee for inquiry and in ensuring that the RFA bill is dealt with and report by 2 December 2002: that we also get on to the remainder of the legislative program. I also say with some Whether the current materiel acqui- degree of confidence that we can rise to sition and management framework of Senator Macdonald’s challenge. It is what we the Department of Defence is effective in meeting the organisation’s equip- would expect. Senator Macdonald has gone ment requirements. to that in saying that he will implore the Prime Minister to be the first to look at the (2) In considering this matter, the committee utilisation of a code. From the suggestions he is to examine and report on the following has put out about Labor ministers, I take it issues: the Prime Minister would be the first. You (a) whether the current materiel acqui- would expect the Commonwealth to be the sition and through-life support system first to deal with a ministerial code. You is meeting, and will continue to meet, would expect that the code would be cham- the needs of Defence and Defence pioned by the Prime Minister. It is a little industries in a timely, cost-effective and qualitative manner; disappointing that he has not come out in answer to the criticisms that have been lev- (b) the impact of the Defence Materiel elled at Dr Wooldridge and Mr Reith and Organisation acquisition reform said, ‘This is the new ministerial code of program on materiel acquisition and conduct that I would have as Prime Minister management; of this country.’ Instead, we have the defence (c) the current status of major equipment given by Senator Macdonald that the states projects in meeting the organisation’s should be the first to do it. I know the Attor- requirements; ney-General sometimes uses that argument (e) the impact of the creation of but I would have thought the Prime Minister decentralised System Program Offices should be the first to put it forward. on materiel acquisition and man- In addition, we have a difference between agement; and Senator Brown and the Democrats in terms (f) any other issues relevant to the of how they would progress the matter. The effectiveness of the current acqui- Democrats appear to seek a legislative solu- sitions framework which arise in the tion and Senator Brown seeks a ministerial course of the inquiry. code by the size of it similar to the UK Question agreed to. model. The Labor Party, as Senator Faulkner has set out, has a better solution than has Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade been put forward and it should be adopted. References Committee From here we should be able, rather than Reference debate these collateral matters—there is no Senator HOGG (Queensland) (5.16 urgency sufficient to justify this matter being p.m.)—I move: dealt with now—to get on with the business That the following matter be referred to the of the Senate. Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Question negatived. Committee for inquiry and report by 2 December 2002: Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 695

Australia’s relationship with Papua New Senate and every party or independent mem- Guinea and the island states of the south- ber in the place. I was seeking to get a view west Pacific (known as Oceania or the as to whether they supported or opposed my South Pacific), with particular reference motion. In the normal course of events I to: would have also been willing to consider any (a) the current state of political relations reasonable amendments that might have been between regional states and Australia put to me. and New Zealand; I have had no response from anyone. I ap- (b) economic relations, including trade, tourism and investment; preciate everyone is very busy and I do not necessarily take offence when there is no (c) development cooperation relationships response. But I would at least expect in these with the various states of the region, including the future direction of the circumstances, if there were opposition to it, overall development cooperation pro- I would have been advised and advised why, gram; and and a vote against would simply have been (d) the implications for Australia of polit- recorded. Just to remind senators who might ical, economic and security develop- not have it before them, the motion con- ments in the region. cerned reads as follows: Question agreed to. That the Senate calls on the Government: PARLIAMENTARIANS’ (a) to cancel the present retirement travel enti- ENTITLEMENTS tlements, including Life Gold Pass and severance travel entitlements, for all senators and members Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) of the House of Representatives retiring after the (5.17 p.m.)—I ask that general business no- commencement of the 40th Parliament, and their tice of motion No. 7 standing in my name for spouses; today relating to the restriction of certain (b) to give consideration to restricting, ration- parliamentary entitlements for retiring mem- alising and eventually phasing-out these entitle- bers of parliament be taken as a formal mo- ments presently applying to senators and mem- tion. bers of the House of Representatives who retired prior to the 40th Parliament, and their spouses; The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT and (Senator Forshaw)—Is there any objection to this motion being taken as formal? (c) to note that this motion does not apply to the office of Prime Minister. Senator Ian Macdonald—Yes. It is a view of the Democrats and it is a view The ACTING DEPUTY PRESI- of very many in the community that the DENT—There is an objection. kinds of travel entitlements to which previ- Suspension of Standing Orders ous senators and members are entitled are an Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) an excessive perk. Recognising that, the (5.17 p.m.)—Pursuant to contingent notice, Prime Minister did indeed, following the and at the request of Senator Stott Despoja, I publication of Audit report No 5, 2001-02: move: Performance audit:Parliamentarians’ enti- tlements 1999-2000, move to restrict some- That so much of the standing orders be sus- what the entitlements that existed at that time pended as would prevent Senator Stott Despoja moving a motion relating to the conduct of the recognising there was public dismay and business of this Senate, namely a motion to give anger about these matters. It is anachronism precedence to general business notice of motion and it is inappropriate. no. 7. For those senators who have not read the In support of my motion I would indicate relevant report, you will find some good two factors to begin with. Firstly, notice of sections outlining them—sections 167 on- this motion was given practically four weeks wards, for instance. But the fact is they cost ago. Secondly, I followed the courtesy of nearly $2 million a year and are regarded as writing to the Leader of Government Busi- an excessive gift to people, given what is a ness, the Leader of the Opposition in the satisfactory salary and an extremely gener- 696 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 ous superannuation condition. My party and liamentarians. I think we have all been able I can see no justification for them whatso- to make our points known on that and I ever, unless of course you enjoy the reputa- would urge the Senate to reject this motion tion of having your snouts in the trough, forthwith so that we can move on to the which I do not. business of the Senate that has been sched- Senator Boswell—Don’t take it. uled. Senator MURRAY—I take the interjec- Senator FAULKNER (New South tion from Senator Boswell and I presume he Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- approves of the spouse of a former member ate) (5.24 p.m.)—I thank Senator Murray for of parliament who travelled over 70 times in his courtesy in providing the opposition with one year on the back of the Commonwealth a copy of the motion he has put before the purse. I presume he approves of that person, chamber, which of course he has done. It is that spouse. true to say—and I thank him for it—that he has given adequate time for parties in the Senator Abetz—For many charitable chamber to give consideration to a response, purposes, Andrew. Be fair. whether they will vote for this motion or Senator MURRAY—It was not a chari- against it. table instance in this case, Senator Abetz. It The truth of the matter is—and I do not was in the pre-1977 era. Now, really, when I think Senator Murray is going to be surprised get that sort of interjection from you, Senator to hear this—I do not want to vote for it and Boswell, I am extremely disappointed be- I do not want to vote against it. It is not that cause if you like that sort of attitude then go simple. And this is one of the problems with out and justify it to the voters of Queensland, the procedure that we have in the Senate. If who have assumed that you have the reputa- you have very substantial changes to a ques- tion and quality to actually advocate the tion then the blunt instrument of a notice of proper use of entitlements by former mem- motion where the Senate either agrees with it bers and senators. (Time expired) in its entirety or is forced to vote against it Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- often does not suit political parties, often sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- does not suit senators in the chamber. And if tion) (5.23 p.m.)—This is another motion to you have got very substantial amendments to suspend the standing orders so that this mat- make which change in many ways the thrust ter can be dealt with now. We have just had a of what a senator like Senator Murray is debate on a motion about similar issues when trying to achieve—in other words, your Senator Murray’s leader agreed that that was amendments are not minor amendments, not a matter of urgency. We have had they are major amendments—then that be- speeches from a number of senators also comes an unacceptable way of dealing with saying that that previous matter was not a issues. I have got to say and be frank about matter of urgency and I suggest, with respect this, Senator Murray, it was the opposition to Senator Murray, that this matter is not a who called this motion, your motion, not matter of urgency either. We have a senator formal. We did so because we have a long- about to make his maiden speech. There is a standing view that the fundamentals of what matter of public importance that is listed for you are proposing, namely your calling on debate this afternoon which we have not yet the government to take certain action in this started on. We have the Regional Forest area, is contrary to what we believe is the Agreements Bill 2002 that we are desper- best way of proceeding with these sorts of ately trying to bring to a vote and a conclu- issues. sion. Further debate on these issues, impor- We have argued long and hard, and it has tant though they may be in the mind of generally been accepted both inside the par- Senator Murray, really should not proceed at liament and outside the parliament that it is this time. Those of us who have wanted to better having governments or the parliament have had a little discussion on the matter put not dealing with these sorts of issues. It is up by Senator Brown on entitlements of par- actually better getting these to an independ- Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 697 ent body like the Remuneration Tribunal, Senator ROBERT RAY (Victoria) (5.30 whether it be about increasing or improving p.m.)—I am getting a bit nostalgic about the the entitlements of politicians or whether it Democrats today. I can remember, back in be about reducing them, as is the case in re- 1987, during the federal election, all the MPs lation to this which goes to reducing the en- were assembled at Customs House when the titlements of former parliamentarians. That is window cleaners’ equipment broke and there what it is about. But it is still best dealt with were three of them dangling there for their not by the government or, frankly, by the lives, hanging on the side of the building. Senate or the parliament. In our view it is The TV cameras from all four channels all best dealt with by the Remuneration tribunal. rushed in. What did the Democrats do? They I do want to say this, and I know that got a sign that said ‘Vo te D e mo cr a t’ and Senator Murray supports this principle. One every time there was a camera they ran good thing that has occurred now is that we around and put that sign in front of it. I do have transparency in relation to the way thought that was the greatest act of political these entitlements are being used or abused. opportunism I had ever seen. Congratula- These matters are now tabled so we know. tions, Senator Murray, you have topped it My view—I think Senator Murray at times today with this resolution. has agreed with this but I do not want to put The whole point about this sort of travel is words in his mouth—is that that level of that, if it is being abused, we crack down on transparency leads to far greater account- the abuse. The first change brought in was ability. That sort of scrutiny that is able to be that there were only 25 trips a year as op- applied both within this building and outside posed to unlimited trips. Prior to that, we really does constrain the use of these sorts of changed the definition. Why did we change entitlements, and it ought to be encouraged. the definition? Because one of your former Senator Murray—Transparency came as leaders was using this particular emolument a result of this side of the house. to go on a speaker’s tour and the cost of his airfares was going in his pocket. I would get Senator FAULKNER—Including the very nasty about that, except one person opposition; I accept that. I hope you accept from the Labor Party and one person from the principle I am putting in relation to the Liberal Party were doing it at the same transparency leading to accountability in this time, so it is mutually assured destruction to regard. I have got to say this. I am not sug- go down that path. gesting this is the case in relation to this mo- tion. Sometimes senators—and the Austra- This was an entitlement granted by the lian Democrats have even been guilty of Remuneration Tribunal. It is regarded as an this—put up motions knowing full well they overall part of the package. You want to get cannot get up in this floor. That is why an some brownie points by removing part of it. alternative government—you would hope a It will not be replaced by anything—at least government but certainly an alternative gov- not in a historical sense—and you will get ernment—has to be able to live with a pro- praise in the press for a day until they turn on posal, not be hypocritical about it, be con- you on some other issue. Enjoy the brownie sistent about it and adopt a position that you points, but I do not see why MPs, under are willing to accept in government. We say: public pressure, should have to give up all don’t shoot this off to the government. They their entitlements piece by piece. Frankly, couldn’t manage it anyway. They have been my constituents would like me to walk to shown to be utterly incompetent in these Canberra. They would like me to pay for my sorts of issues. Get it off to an independent own meal on the way—fair enough. They do tribunal to make these decisions. That is not not like me very much, or you; they don’t. It even going to the substance of the motion is not because of this particular entitlement; but to the principle behind it, which we have it is because it has been institutionalised in major concerns with. For that reason we will this country to dislike MPs. It makes them not grant urgency, but are always happy to feel better—good!—but we have a duty not debate the issues out. to give in to that sort of mob approach. This 698 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 is just one aspect of it; it is not a very im- this. Today it will be the gold pass, tomorrow portant one. I would not mind having to ac- it will be some other issue, and then, Senator count for how often I have used entitlements Murray, you will find yourself under a whole for my spouse. It would be lucky if it was heap of pressure to give up something you one Canberra trip a year in 21 years, whereas may not want to give up. I do not think that some people have used 200 in that time. is a very rational way of approaching things. Senator Murray—You are a current Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (5.34 member; that is fair enough. p.m.)—What an example of the pressure that Senator ROBERT RAY—I am a current comes on in this place to have everybody fall member. I am also a gold pass holder. I admit into line and go quiet on politicians’ entitle- that right now; it is unlimited. I have been a ments. Senator Allison, I know you will not gold pass holder for five, six, seven or eight be coerced in that fashion, and I want to years. compliment Senator Murray from Western Australia because he is the foremost advo- Senator Murray—You are current. cate of making sure that parliamentarians’ Senator ROBERT RAY—I am saying I entitlements are meet and not excessive. I have not used entitlements I could have used. have just heard that we do not change our I have never tried to maximise them at any entitlements here. I have been in here when level. I have not used my charter allow- we have put through entitlements for fridge ance—not one cent of it—in the last 15 magnets on literature, for increased amounts years. of publishable materials and all manner of Senator Allison—You should get out in things. Of course we do; we set it all the the bush more. time. It is in our domain to respond to public Senator ROBERT RAY—Senator Alli- concern and occasionally to— son, if you want to get to abuse of entitle- Senator Ian Macdonald—Mr Acting ments, everyone knows where the Democrats Deputy President, I raise a point of order. in Victoria are run from. They are run from Could I ask you to draw Senator Brown’s your office, and you know it. attention to the fact that this is a motion on Honourable senators interjecting— the suspension of standing orders, not on the substantive matter of the debate. Senator ROBERT RAY—Oh, really? No paper from your office has ever been used Senator Faulkner—This is a point of or- for the Democrat party? No photocopying der that is taken regularly on all sides of the cartridges, identically? Rubbish. You have chamber, so I do not direct these comments some good liars on board. You may be right, specifically to that point of order from but then there are few people who have been Senator Macdonald, but there is now a long- telling fibs to me about the operation of the standing convention, acknowledged by Democrats in Victoria. Madam President and those presiding, that in order to try and achieve quick passage of In the end, if this resolution is carried it business in this place the substance of will go to the government and the govern- broadly substantive issues beyond urgency ment will say, ‘This is a matter for the Re- are canvassed in a suspension of standing muneration Tribunal.’ Nothing will happen orders debate. As people know, one of the with it; absolutely nothing. Senator Faulkner ideas here, when we changed the standing is right: we should not set our own entitle- orders and limitations were applied, is to ments. That is absolutely right. The Remu- allow some breadth in this debate so that we neration Tribunal should set them. could get over it quickly. If, of course, Senator Faulkner—Increase or reduce. Senator Macdonald had taken a point of or- Senator ROBERT RAY—We should not der saying it was incredibly boring and we increase or reduce them, as Senator Faulkner ought to get on with the other business, I says. Leave it to an independent body to de- would probably have agreed with him, but I termine them, and then at least we would be cannot let that point of order go because it is isolated from some criticism in relation to nonsense. It is nonsense, and many senators Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 699 on both sides of the chamber know it is non- as I do. Senator Ray is wrong again when he sense. says that the division is upstairs; it is not. My The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT office is on the first floor and the divisional (Senator Bartlett)—Senator Brown, as you office is on the ground floor. are no doubt aware, your remarks are re- Senator Ray should be acquainted with the quired to be related to the substance of the fact that the state office has its own photo- matter. copier, it has its own rizograph machine and Senator BROWN—I think it is an urgent it has its own telephones. It has its own ma- matter simply because it has been in the terials, which it uses for party political pur- public domain; it is a matter that Senator poses. I make it absolutely clear to my Murray brought up a month ago and it is staff—and I am confident in the extreme that time that it was dealt with. I support the mo- my instructions to my staff are carried out— tion from Senator Murray because it is an that there is absolutely no question that any excellent one. of my equipment, any of my materials or any of my entitlements are to be used for party Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (5.37 purposes. So I challenge Senator Ray to put p.m.)—Allegations have been made this af- on the table the evidence for making such ternoon about me by Senator Ray and I seek allegations—because I know there is no such leave to make some statements with respect evidence. to those allegations. Quite frankly, I am getting rather fed up Senator Faulkner—Mr Acting Deputy with this sort of innuendo that I have heard President, I raise a point of order. Leave will from Senator Ray from time to time on this be granted to Senator Allison, of course, but subject. There is no law against my electoral not before this suspension of standing orders office being in the same building, in the motion is dealt with. That is the proper same street and in the same suburb as the course of action. Of course you will get divisional office. I am sure that there are leave, you know that, but if we can deal with plenty of instances where Labor Party mem- the matter before the chair we can then move bers are similarly co-located or even just in to that. If you seek leave, you will receive close proximity. I reject absolutely the con- leave from the opposition, but we have to get nection, the allegation and the inference—it the procedures right in this place and be con- is more than an inference—that has been sistent. made by Senator Ray. Again I ask him to not Senator ALLISON—Mr Acting Deputy make such allegations unless he has evi- President, on the point of order: it was ap- dence. I know that he cannot have that evi- parently okay for Senator Ray to make these dence, but if he thinks that he has it then he allegations during the debate and I cannot ought to put it on the table. see why I should not respond. Question negatived. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT AUSTRALIAN GRAND PRIX: (Senator Bartlett)—You can speak on the TOBACCO ADVERTISING motion, if you like, and respond as part of the motion. Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (5.41 p.m.)—Before I move the motion standing in Senator ALLISON—Okay then, I will my name, I seek leave to table some press speak on the motion, even though it has clippings which show the incidental adver- nothing to do with it. Senator Ray has made tising of tobacco products during the period a serious allegation that I must respond to as of the race in Melbourne. quickly as possible. He says that my office is supporting the party. He has absolutely no Leave granted. evidence to support that claim and I deny Senator ALLISON—I move: absolutely and emphatically that there is any That the Senate— substance behind his allegation. It is the case that the Victorian division of the Australian Democrats has its office in the same building 700 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

(a) notes that: (iv) the effectiveness and availability (i) the press coverage for the Australian of early intervention programs, Grand Prix in Melbourne on 28 (v) access to and adequacy of funding February to 3 March 2002 again and support in both the public and provided tobacco companies with private sectors, unparalleled advertising opport- (vi) the nature, extent and funding of unities, and programs that provide for full or (ii) this will be the seventh year that the partial learning opportunities with race has made an operating loss, and mainstream students, again Victoria taxpayers will under- (vii) teacher training and professional write the event; development, and (b) urges the Federal Government to ban (viii) the legal implications and resource incidental advertising of tobacco demands of current Common- products outside the confines of the wealth and state and territory leg- Grand Prix; and islation; and (c) urges the Victorian Government to: (b) what the proper role of the (i) investigate alternative venues for the Commonwealth and states and Grand Prix, territories should be in supporting the (ii) make public the contract signed with education of students with the Grand Prix Corporation, and disabilities. (iii) reveal the extent to which it (2) That the committee report to the Senate subsidised the race. by the last sitting day in October 2002. Question negatived. Question agreed to. COMMITTEES BUSINESS Employment, Workplace Relations and Rearrangement Education References Committee Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- Reference sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL (New tion) (5.43 p.m.)—by leave—I move: South Wales) (5.42 p.m.)—I move: That Senator Colbeck may now make his first speech without any question before the chair. (1) That the Employment, Workplace Relations and Education References Question agreed to. Committee inquire into the education of FIRST SPEECH students with disabilities, including learning disabilities, throughout all The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Before I levels and sectors of education, with call Senator Colbeck, I remind honourable particular reference to: senators that this is his first speech. There- (a) whether current policies and fore, I ask that the usual courtesies be ex- programs for students with disabilities tended to him. are adequate to meet their education Senator COLBECK (Tasmania) (5.43 needs, including, but not limited to: p.m.)—Thank you, Madam Deputy Presi- (i) the criteria used to define disability dent. There would be few before me, and I and to differentiate between levels suppose there will be few to follow, who of handicap, would not feel an enormous sense of pride to (ii) the accuracy with which students’ be a representative of the Australian people disability-related needs are being in the federal parliament. I am no different. It assessed, is indeed a most rare honour and privilege to (iii) the particular needs of students take my place here as a representative of my with disabilities from low socio- party, my state and my country, and I do so economic, non-English speaking with great humility. and Indigenous backgrounds, and from rural and remote areas, I would like to thank the membership of my party, who saw fit to include me as a member of the Tasmanian Liberal Senate Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 701 team. I am a proud member of this great some delight in naming and boasting of some party and I look forward to representing its of these: principles in this chamber over the years to • disease-free Atlantic salmon that we come. I also thank the Tasmanian electorate now export back to source as fry to re- for seeing fit to return three Liberal senators plenish stocks at the November election. The nature of the • electorate in Tasmania and the electoral pro- premium product from our wild fisheries cesses that electors are exposed to at a state • the only beef in Australia guaranteed by level make them very discerning. It was an legislation to be free of hormone growth outcome that went against all the expecta- promotants and therefore sought after in tions of the pundits, and it was a very good premium markets such as Japan one for the Liberal Party. It is my intention • dairy products from the north and north- that it be demonstrated to be a very good one west and King Island for Tasmania. • premium vegetable crops I must also pay tribute to my predecessor • unique tourism industry with experi- in this chamber, the former Senator Jocelyn ences that surprise those who visit Newman. It is an honour to be selected by • my party to follow someone of the stature of mining, forestry and fine timber prod- Jocelyn Newman. In Tasmanian terms, she is ucts one of the most significant identities in the • innovative technology developments history of our parliament and more so in the including, of course, world leading ship- context of the Liberal Party in Tasmania. She building technology. ranks alongside Dame Enid Lyons in terms There is a host more that I could name; of her achievements, and I pay tribute to the yet this wonderful island continues to strug- contribution that she made to both her state gle to keep pace with growth levels across a and her country. I again thank her for the range of indicators of the rest of the country opportunity and the privilege to be a part of and battles to keep pace with the rate of the opening of this 40th parliament. It was a change that is these days a fact of life. This most generous gesture and I am extremely brings me to several issues that are of sig- grateful for it. nificant interest to me in advancing the cause Most importantly, I express my thanks to of my state. While some may think, ‘Here my wife, Gaylene, and to my children we have another Tasmanian with the up- Carmen, Rhys and Dane. We all know that turned hand approach,’ I assure you that is by the pressures of political life have an impact no means the case. In most instances it that extends beyond the member, and I could would be quite appropriate to substitute re- not have asked for a family which is more gional Australia for Tasmania—in other understanding and supportive of my in- words, what is good for Tasmania is gener- volvement in politics. ally good for regional Australia. I realise that I am a proud fourth generation Tasmanian, Tasmanians need to play a large role in de- with my family settling at Bothwell in the veloping their future and, in some respects, 1830s—and, in case you were wondering, they need to change their perspectives to there was no prison at Bothwell. It does say achieve that development. something about our country that someone The real issue for Tasmania is that key is- from a dairy farm at Wilmot in the foothills sues need to be addressed by governments at of Cradle Mountain, who started their work- both state and federal levels to allow for the ing career as an apprentice carpenter, can natural advantages that we enjoy to be fully become a representative in the Senate of the exploited. The first of these has to be access federal parliament. As a representative of and the cost of access. This would have to be Tasmania, I can but delight in the premium the most significant influence on the poten- outputs of the people and the industries of tial growth of the state. It does not matter the island—outputs that are recognised inter- which industry you come into contact with; nationally as being the best available. I take sooner or later the conversation comes 702 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 around to this topic. The issue is more than frank, I do not believe that anyone does, but just access and cost; it extends to guaranteed there must be a way to address some of the reliable transport. cultural, financial and locational impedi- In an attempt to remove some of the pre- ments to reaching a better outcome. conceived thoughts on the relationship be- Another element that Tasmania has strug- tween the two main land masses that make gled with, over the last decade in particular, up our country, I will change what is gener- is that of attracting investment capital, par- ally accepted as normal terminology, as I am ticularly at a reasonable premium. This has one who refuses to accept any concept of been particularly noticeable since the scut- superiority that it might convey one way or tling of a certain project in 1989 for political the other. In a tourism sense, there are many purposes, raising the element of sovereign north islanders who would like to visit the risk for investors in Tasmania. A sour taste south island. In fact, research shows that still lingers in the mouths of investment about 18 per cent of north islanders express houses around the country and overseas. this sentiment. The reality is that only about Business will not invest because there is not three per cent actually do visit. But why? Is a high enough return, and there are not high it fair that, for example, a north islander has enough returns because there is not enough to pay approximately 60 per cent of the total investment. It may sound simplistic, but it cost of their holiday to get to their destina- appears to be the case. The question is: how tion on the south island or that, when they do we break the nexus? I do not claim that get there, they might not be able to get back this is a purely Tasmanian issue, because I home again? Unfortunately, no matter how know that other regional centres suffer simi- small the risk, it is one that many north is- larly, but in a Tasmanian context it is perhaps landers are not prepared to take. At this point indicative that we are still debating a bill that in time, that is the situation, particularly in relates to securing against sovereign risk the current climate of uncertainty surround- some five years after the original agreements ing air travel. While there is no question that were signed. Most of these elements have an there has been significant ground made to- impact on population, an issue that has been wards solving this situation through freight touched on in the state over the last few equalisation and passenger equalisation, and years but has not been driven to any extent— even more recent developments through the although it does appear that it may become a state government, in my view there is more topic of national discussion, which might required to achieve the ideal situation, and I serve to keep it to the fore in Tasmania and look forward to working to achieve that. to ensure that it is addressed in a positive There are other issues that derive from ac- manner. cess, all of which, to some extent, are felt by It might appear that all is bleak on the regional Australia. Education—particularly south island and that there is no hope for the retention rates to tertiary education—is a future. I for one certainly do not believe that matter that is felt by all regional communi- that is the case. I have previously mentioned ties in Australia, none more so than the re- our wonderful agricultural industries that, gion of Tasmania where I live, where reten- according to the industries themselves, have tion rates—14 per cent versus the national the potential to double in output; a tourism average of 24 per cent—are lower than in industry that has potential beyond the con- any other part of the country, with the ex- cept of most; and other sectors that I have ception of the Northern Territory. There is a spoken of here tonight also have positive widely held view, and I am certainly one growth potential. In all, Tasmania is an is- who holds that view, that the level of pros- land of enormous potential. That potential is perity of a community is directly related to demonstrated by the fact that Tasmanians are its level of education. That is surely borne per capita the second highest exporters in the out in the level of reliance on government country behind Western Australians. And if assistance in the region. I do not pretend to you consider, as I was reminded recently, have all the answers to this issue. To be that nearly 50 per cent of the population rely Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 703 on some sort of government support, you get MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE an indication of just how industrious and National Action Plan on Salinity and productive we south islanders are. All we Water Quality seek are the settings to allow us to reach our full potential, whether that be quarantine—as The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I have re- we have seen with salmon or apples—en- ceived a letter from Senator Stott Despoja suring reliable and affordable access, greater proposing that a definite matter of public retention rates in education or improved in- importance be submitted to the Senate for vestment levels. There are plenty of issues to discussion, namely: pursue. The failure of the bilateral agreement between Queensland and the Commonwealth in relation to As members of parliament we are often the National Action Plan for Salinity to address and quite unfairly regarded as being unac- the matter of landclearing in Queensland. countable and without benchmarks. Bearing in mind that in this profession we are often I call upon those senators who approve of the measured or judged by the things that we say proposed discussion to rise in their places. and that this presentation is the one that More than the number of senators re- those who search out information about us quired by the standing orders having risen in often first access, the issues that I have spo- their places— ken of here today are those that I see as my The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I under- own initial benchmarks. My objective here is stand that informal arrangements have been to get the job done. By whatever it takes? made to allocate specific times to each of the No. But I was recently reminded at a Rotary speakers in today’s debate. With the concur- weekly meeting of the Rotary Four Way rence of the Senate, I shall ask the clerks to Test: is it the truth, is it fair to all concerned, set the clocks accordingly. will it build goodwill and better relation- ships, and will it be beneficial to all con- Senator CHERRY (Queensland) (5.58 cerned. It seems to be a pretty good place to p.m.)—This is a very important matter be- start. cause it concerns what is, in our view, the most important and pressing environmental I am fortunate to have lived and worked in issue in Australia—that is, land clearing. many areas of the state—north, south, north- Queensland and New South Wales account west and west coasts and the two magnifi- for more than 80 per cent of the native bush cent Bass Strait islands—and look forward cleared in Australia. Recent research indi- with great anticipation and pride to working cates that Australia is clearing 687,800 hec- with and serving the people as my time here tares of native vegetation every year. Ap- continues. As you might imagine, I have re- proximately two-thirds of this is virgin ceived advice from many quarters since the bushland. This is higher by 22 per cent than declaration of the poll to confirm my election the earlier estimates of what was being to this chamber, but none better than that cleared annually. This means that over 50 from my parents, as is usually the way with football fields of Australian native trees, mums and dads. On the night before I was wildflowers and wildlife habitat are de- sworn in, they presented me with a memento stroyed every hour. On these figures, Aus- to remind me of life on our dairy farm at tralia now ranks number five in the world in Wilmot: ‘Never forget where you came from land clearing rates, behind the developing and never forget who put you here.’ I look nations of Brazil, Indonesia, Sudan and forward to living up to that advice during my Zambia. Previously Australia was ranked time here and, with great anticipation, to sixth behind Mexico—but we bumped those serving the people who put me here. I thank Mexicans. the honourable senators for their courtesy. Land clearing is the greatest threat to biodiversity loss in Australia, with millions of unnecessary deaths each year of a host of Australian native species. On World Envi- ronment Day in 1998, a report was released 704 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 which revealed the devastating impact of to stop tree clearing in those areas where it land clearing on animals. In Queensland threatens to degrade either land or water. alone, 68,000 long-nosed bandicoots, 22,400 The agreement sets no caps on clearing sugar gliders, 17,000 brush-tailed possums and imposes no moratorium on clearing in and 7,500 greater gliders are killed every high salinity risk areas, nor does it set targets year by land clearing and millions more for land cover and protection of native plants and animals die. vegetation. And it endorses Queensland’s In November 2000, the Council of Aus- Vegetation Management Act, the act under tralian Governments endorsed a proposed which record tree clearing rates in Queen- National Action Plan on Salinity and Water sland have been facilitated. The state gov- Quality. The national action plan on salinity ernment continues to issue large-scale clear- invests $1.4 billion over six years in 21 pri- ing permits for leasehold land. The Com- ority catchments. The plan has very noble monwealth is trusting a piece of Queensland goals: to prevent, stabilise and reverse trends legislation that the Howard government had in dryland salinity affecting the sustainability previously recognised is not working. The of production, the conservation of biological $160 million for addressing salinity in diversity and the viability of our infrastruc- Queensland, inadequate as that is when ture; and to improve water quality and secure spread over seven years, is now in danger of reliable allocations for human uses, industry being wasted on more working groups and and the environment. more tree planting, while the bulldozers and The Prime Minister at the time recognised chains continue to flatten the bush. how critical controlling land clearing is to It is worth recalling that the Australian the effective implementation of national ac- Conservation Foundation, in conjunction tion plans. The Prime Minister said in rela- with the National Farmers Federation, re- tion to land clearing in salinity risk areas: cently estimated that the annual cost of re- Recognising the fact that land clearing in salinity pairing Australia’s land and water—and that risk areas is a primary cause of dryland salinity, is primarily associated with damage caused effective controls on land clearing are required in by land clearing—would be approximately each jurisdiction: $6.5 billion every year for 10 years. The na- • any Commonwealth investment in catch- tional action plan’s $1.7 billion over seven ment/region plans will be contingent upon land years falls far short of that need. Based on clearing being prohibited in areas where it would the bilateral agreement with Queensland, it is lead to unacceptable land or water degradation; likely to fall ever farther short in accom- and plishing its stated objectives. The irony, of • the Commonwealth will require agreement course, is that for a little over $100 million from relevant States/Territories ... that their the Commonwealth could have bought the vegetation management regulations are effec- controls on land clearing in Queensland that tively used or, where necessary, amended to com- it says are necessary. Instead, it is spending bat salinity and water quality issues. $162 million in Queensland for a project that The Commonwealth has entered into a bilat- is not going to address the most critical fac- eral agreement with Queensland imple- tor in preventing salinity. menting the principles of the NAP as set out If the current government cannot deal with by the Prime Minister. What is extraordinary the most pressing environmental issue in about this bilateral agreement is that it does Australia it is bad enough, but when they absolutely nothing about land clearing in spend $162 million to pretend that they are it Queensland, despite the commitments made is even worse. Despite years of promises and in 2000. You cannot have an effective action political posturing, native vegetation is still plan on salinity without action to prevent the being cleared at unsustainable rates in the causes of salinity. This plan does nothing to Australian bush. It is clear that the Queen- stop rampant tree clearing in Queensland, sland ALP is not going to address the prob- although the Howard government promised lem. Unfortunately, it is also clear that the federal coalition is not going to do it either. Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 705

Land clearing is a recognised threat to the more trees when trees are being cut down Great Barrier Reef. Sediment and nutrient faster than we can actually plant them. run-off into the reef from the various catch- Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- ments are now recognised as having dam- sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- aged the inshore areas of the reef. While the tion) (6.06 p.m.)—I was waiting to hear in Commonwealth has set targets for discharges Senator Cherry’s presentation one word of from rivers into the Great Barrier Reef la- congratulations to the Howard government goon, it has imposed no requirements in re- for taking the most significant steps forward lation to land clearing—ultimately the pri- in environmental management in Australia’s mary cause of degrading water quality within history. I was also waiting for perhaps an the reef area. acknowledgment that the Natural Heritage Salinity is a huge problem, but in many Trust was the biggest and best contribution ways it is a symptom of a greater underlying towards the environment of any government problem, which is the clearing of native in this nation’s history. But, with the Demo- vegetation. A major book published in 2002 crats, there is never a sign of responsible by the Australian Institute of Marine Sci- attention to detail, always criticism and ences includes a number of contributions that carping, negative contributions. speak about poor land use practices in The bilateral agreements under the Na- Queensland and the impact of those practices tional Action Plan on Salinity and Water on our wetlands, rivers and oceans. For in- Quality were signed with Queensland on 1 stance: March this year. In those agreements, Land under sugarcane and, by implication, Queensland has reconfirmed its commitment changes in land use, which involve clearing of to prohibiting land clearing where it would trees have a detrimental impact on water quality lead to unacceptable land and water degra- ... it is clear that grazing is likely to be the princi- dation. Queensland is addressing the com- pal contributor of sediment and possibly nutrients mitment through a community consultation to the GBR. Johnson et al. conclude that reform is required at policy, planning, and enterprise levels process to provide the development of re- if the impacts of terrestrial activities on the eco- gional vegetation management plans. The logical, economic and social values of the GBR bilateral agreement also includes a commit- are to be minimised in the future. ment by the state to implement a jointly It is also clear that unless a change in current land agreed rapid salinity hazard assessment pro- use policy, planning, and management occurs, cess to ensure that by June 2002 robust in- then the area of freshwater wetland and riparian formation is available for the assessment of forest ecosystems in many of the catchments ad- land clearing permit applications on a prop- jacent to the GBRMP will be reduced to a very erty by property basis. The bilateral agree- low level. It is likely that many areas of remnant ment also provides the Commonwealth with freshwater wetlands and riverine rainforest vege- access to data on vegetation clearing permit tation are already less than is required to perform approvals to ensure that the state is fulfilling as an effective and functional biological unit. its obligations to halt clearing on land vul- Even if we are not addressing salinity in nerable to degradation. Queensland as an environmental issue, even The Commonwealth is satisfied that the if it was not the government’s No. 1 envi- Queensland government does have controls ronmental issue, Australia’s overriding in place to prohibit land clearing that would commitment to protect the World Heritage lead to unacceptable land and water degra- values of the Great Barrier Reef would re- dation. You will be aware, Senator, as will all quire that salinity, and with that land clear- senators, that the states, and in this case ing, in Queensland is addressed. It is a trag- Queensland, have the primary responsibility edy that we see at this particular juncture a for land management in the state, and that national action plan which actually fails to includes land clearing. Whilst that is the address the principal causes of salinity and is case, the Commonwealth is taking steps to little more than a band-aid on the issue. What secure national greenhouse and natural re- we are talking about is probably planting source management outcomes. The Com- 706 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 monwealth national action plan already in- sue and is the responsibility of state and ter- cludes a state commitment to, as I say, at ritory governments. The Commonwealth has, least prohibit land clearing in priority catch- however, indicated that it would be prepared ment regions where it would lead to unac- to provide a financial contribution commen- ceptable land and water degradation. surate with the reduction in emissions from The bilateral agreement fulfils the re- land clearing negotiated and implemented by quirements of the national action plan inter- the Queensland government. Achieving a governmental agreement to prohibit land significant reduction in greenhouse gas emis- clearing in those circumstances. This always sions will involve a sizeable and sustained raises the question of property rights. The reduction in the ‘business as usual’ clearing Commonwealth’s position is quite clear on rates over the past decade, beyond that property rights. The Commonwealth has re- flowing from the vegetation management affirmed its commitment to address property regime in the national action plan. rights and compensation issues and has an- What we are saying is that the Queensland nounced in its election commitments that government—as do all state governments— COAG will address definitions of property has primary responsibility for land manage- rights, including water rights, and mecha- ment, for clearing management and for pro- nisms to deliver just compensation for the viding adequate compensation where rights loss of these rights. The issue of property are impacted upon. We have gone on to say rights and compensation is being considered that Queensland should pay compensation as part of the work program of the Natural when rights are involved under its land man- Resource Management Ministerial Council agement obligations and those obligations under the programs committee of the stand- under the national action plan. But when ing committee. there are reductions in land clearing in ex- It is important to note that, while a num- cess of that which will help meet the nation’s ber of states have effective regulatory re- greenhouse gas emission reduction targets gimes for land clearing in place, the main then the Commonwealth is prepared to make reason the national goal has not been a contribution. We do not want to tell the achieved is that many states have not con- Queensland government how they should do tributed sufficiently to the national endeav- that; we do not want to be prescriptive about our. The goal cannot be achieved as long as how a further significant reduction in land Queensland land clearing rates remain at clearing and, consequently, greenhouse gas current levels, and New South Wales land emissions can be achieved. It is up to the clearing rates also remain too high. Signifi- Queensland government, which has the rele- cant improvements in other states and territo- vant on-the-ground knowledge, to do that, ries are also required. In calling for action by because it is best placed to further develop a states and territories to address their respon- workable and cost-effective scheme and en- sibilities for management of native vegeta- gender the support and commitment of the tion, the Commonwealth expects any action Queensland community that is crucial to the to follow soundly based science. Further- success of the implementation of sustainable more, any action must also provide for ef- land use practices. However, the Common- fective consultation with land-holders likely wealth does require that any scheme to pro- to be adversely affected by decisions to limit vide for emissions reductions is readily veri- land clearing. It is the Commonwealth’s po- fiable and consistent with internationally sition that, where rights have been removed, agreed definitions and reporting require- the states and territories must meet any legal ments. requirements for direct compensation to As a result of the Commonwealth’s insis- property rights holders. This is a precondi- tence, there have been additional meetings tion before the Commonwealth will consider between officials of both the Queensland and any adjustment position. Commonwealth governments, and it seems The Commonwealth reiterates that land that the matter is progressing. It is important clearing is primarily a land management is- that the governments should work together to Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 707 incorporate robust emission accounting and This is a matter of public importance, but it to ensure international climate change con- is only part, albeit an important part, of the siderations are fully addressed. broader issue of natural resource manage- We are waiting for a proposal from ment that is challenging all of us—govern- Queensland—that is, a proposal in addition ments and communities alike. The control of to their land management regime and in ad- salinity and the management of water are dition to their obligations under the National very much matters of public importance, Action Plan on Salinity and Water Quality. they are matters of economic importance and Any additional obligations to reduce land they are matters of environmental impor- clearing that will have an impact upon tance. As I said, the specific question of land greenhouse gas emissions, the Common- clearing is a key aspect of the debate, but it is wealth will contribute to. We want to see only a part. I understand that Senator McLu- what Queensland proposes, what money they cas plans to address that particular matter in are looking at, and we have indicated that we her contribution to this debate. would very seriously work with them on the The solution to the increasing problems of project. salinity control and water management are to The motion before the chamber talks par- be found in a comprehensive, cooperative ticularly about the NAP agreement. Of and inclusive approach to the management of course, that is only part of the equation. That land and water. I am confident that, at the has a specific reference to salinity and water time of the COAG Water Reform Agreement quality. Beyond that, there is the issue of back in 1994, there was a level of goodwill greenhouse gas emissions, and that is a sepa- and cooperation between the then Prime rate issue or a different issue and an exten- Minister, the state premiers and the chief sion of the issue on which we are in very ministers. I am sure the same could be said close contact with the Queensland govern- about the relationship between the first min- ment. We want to make sure, given goodwill isters of the Commonwealth and the states between all parties, that the Queensland gov- when the first agreement on the National ernment complies with its obligations and Action Plan on Salinity and Water Quality financial responsibilities, as every other state was signed in November 2000. There may has done. Mr Beattie has attempted to play also have been some goodwill between the politics in this. He knows he should do responsible federal minister and his state things he is not game to, so he is trying to counterparts at that time. In fact, Mr Truss blame the Commonwealth. You know that is put out a media statement on 3 November right, Senator Cherry. The Commonwealth is 2000 headed ‘Truss welcomes commonsense doing the right thing. We are not going to be agreement’. In that release, Mr Truss said: bluffed. We want to be fair, but we want to It— make sure that Queensland does what needs and he is referring to the COAG agreement to be done, pays for what it is responsible on salinity and water quality— for, and then we will help in the broader means that for the first time the Commonwealth, question that follows to achieve the targets states and territories have committed to working that Australia needs to achieve. The national together on solutions to the specific problems of action plan agreement is only part of the salinity and water quality. whole scene. We are dealing with the other The actual implementation of the national issues in an extension of those issues, and I action plan has now stagnated, and there has am sure we will get to the right conclusion, been little progress on the fundamentals of given the Prime Minister’s commitment to the water reform program. These processes achieving appropriate targets. have stagnated because of the lack of good- Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (6.16 will and leadership shown by the Howard p.m.)—This matter of public importance government, particularly by the Minister for goes specifically to the issue of land clearing Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, Mr in Queensland in the context of the National Truss. Let me refer to a media report from Action Plan on Salinity and Water Quality. the Weekly Times of 12 December last year. 708 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

In that article, Mr Truss blamed the states for how best to balance the needs of farmers and delays in getting the salinity action plan off the needs of the environment. Mr Howard the ground. He accused the states of cost- and Mr Anderson should have settled that shifting, and he said that some of the states balance with all the interested parties years were not committed to new money for the ago. program. He said that the Commonwealth These outbursts, first by Mr Truss and was not prepared to wait for the states and then by Mr Anderson, may make good copy was considering going it alone. More re- but the problem remains when the media cently, we have had an attack on the states buzz is gone—and the necessary cooperation about water reform by the Deputy Prime between governments has been further Minister, Mr Anderson. eroded. It is clear that the Commonwealth- A key aspect of these programs to control state administrative framework in place to salinity and protect our water resource is the manage these programs is not working prop- determination of the property rights of indi- erly. At the last estimates hearings, the De- vidual land-holders. If there is a desire by the partment of Agriculture, Fisheries and For- broader community to acquire a private right, estry advised me that the funding allocation whether it be water or vegetation preserva- for the national action plan was set at $5 tion, then the owner of that right must be million for 2000-01 but that amount was not appropriately compensated. This point was fully expended. Officers then advised that recognised by all governments back in 1994. the funding available for 2001-02—that is, The water reform agenda was incorporated $65 million—had only been extended to the into the national competition policy agree- extent that some $7.75 million had been ment in 1995. So the issue of water reform transferred to the state of South Australia. generally and property rights in particular The officers further advised that at the time was well and truly on the agenda when this of that estimates hearing just $9.5 million government came into office in March 1996. had been expended—that is, less than $10 By calling for a national debate on water million in the first 18 months of a seven-year reform at last week’s ABARE Outlook Con- $1.4 billion program. ference, Mr Anderson in fact highlighted the It is important to note that we are not failure of the Howard government to give talking about on the ground activity here; we any priority to water reform in its first six are talking about funding commitments. It is years in office. The Howard government’s also important to note that the government failure to give this important issue the prior- was getting clear advice well before Novem- ity it demanded in 1996 saw the momentum ber 2000 about the actual threat to rural generated by the COAG decision lost, and Australia from dryland salinity. There was a the reform process has stagnated ever since. report to the government by the Prime Min- There is no doubt that the federal govern- ister’s Science Engineering and Innovation ment has a key role to play in all of this. In Council in 1998. That report advised the his address to the ABARE Outlook Confer- government that at that time 2.5 million ence, Mr Anderson said that the advance- hectares were affected by dryland salinity, ment of water reform in Australia required with the potential for that to increase to 15 both national leadership and national stan- million hectares in the next 30 years. In Oc- dards. And that is absolutely correct. But that tober 1999, the Murray Darling Basin Com- national leadership has not been provided by mission released the findings of its audit, and the Deputy Prime Minister, who had direct that put the issue back on the national responsibility for water reform from March agenda. 1996 until October 1998. Nor has it been It is clear, therefore, that this is a problem provided by the Prime Minister. This is a that has been known to this government for government that prefers to blame the states some considerable period, and we are still a for everything. We now have the Prime long way from even starting to address it. At Minister and Mr Anderson talking about the ABARE Outlook Conference, Mr Ander- getting all the states together to work out son also said there was a need for a uniform Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 709 approach to the issue of water property issue of water reform, this government has rights, and he was right again. But a uniform shown that all it is about is political division. approach means a national approach, and a It is about the implementation of its plan, national approach brings with it a funda- built on driving political wedges between the mental role for the Commonwealth. As I say, stakeholders in the potential outcomes these that is a role which has been ignored by Mr important programs might produce, and it is Howard and Mr Anderson for six years. If I all about the attempted transfer of financial had the time, I could make a lengthy analogy responsibility—and who can forget the re- between the failure of this government with cent problem we had in relation to Natural respect to dairy deregulation and its inaction Heritage Trust stage 2 funding, where the for years in the initial phases when action Commonwealth has been demanding a far was needed. I will not at this stage, because I greater contribution to that funding than was do not believe I have the time. required under stage 1, putting that forward But there is clearly a key role for all as a barrier to the progress of that program. stakeholders in rebuilding Australia’s natural And so the priority of the Commonwealth resource base. Any program such as the sa- is not to remedy the environment but to shift linity action plan must have the support of all the burden onto the states, notwithstanding stakeholders, from the federal minister for that the states may already have made other agriculture down to individual land-holders. commitments in other areas. Whereas in the This, I must say, must be active support. This case of the Natural Heritage Trust stage 1 the active support can only be forthcoming if the Commonwealth was prepared to accept a roles of all parties are clearly identified and responsibility because its political imperative articulated. All parties must be educated then was to try to get the political brownie about the nature of the program, how it will points for its program, it is now seeing, with be implemented and what minimum stan- Labor governments in place, that it is politi- dards are expected from the implementation cally sustainable to challenge those states to of the program. There may also be a need for make contributions which will tax their incentives to ensure active support in these budgets and make it more difficult for those programs and, as I have said, compensation states to participate in delivering the out- must be provided where individual rights are comes that are needed to restore our natural to be acquired. resource base through programs like the Finally, it is fine for the Commonwealth Natural Heritage Trust. government and the states to develop na- But one thing is certain out of all this: all tional plans such as the National Action Plan of the government’s program is certainly not on Salinity and Water Quality, but there must about agricultural sustainability and it is be far more to these plans than a well- certainly not about environmental restora- worded communique or a joint press release. tion. If that were the case, we would not be There must be on the ground outcomes. That seeing, for example—under the national ac- means programs that have clear and achiev- tion plan, after having had this $1.4 billion able goals; programs that have clear priori- program operating for about 18 months—our ties; programs that acknowledge the property having had something less than $10 million rights of individuals and compensate those expended, with no outcomes on the ground. individuals where their rights are acquired in Senator Ian Macdonald—But Queen- the broader community interest. sland was slow to sign up. I must say that this government has failed Senator O’BRIEN—Senator Macdonald the environment and rural and regional land- says that Queensland was slow to sign up. holders when it comes to the issue of na- The fact is that, from the time in November tional resource management and restoration. 2000 when there was common agreement, Why do I say that? Whether it be at stage 2 this government has been playing politics of the Natural Heritage Trust, whether it be and seeking to extract arrangements from the regarding the National Action Plan on Salin- states that have not reflected what the needs ity and Water Quality or whether it be on the of those states are and which have been de- 710 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 signed to make it more difficult for the states government that is taking the responsibilities to become involved in those programs. But I that have been given to it under the Consti- predict that, down the track, this government tution and going further with them. It is an will put its expenditure programs back so act of a government that is saying, ‘Well, that, at the next election, as part of its pro- we’ve got to do something. This is an enor- gram for the coming three years, it can trum- mous problem. It is probably beyond the ca- pet a reannouncement of some of the funds it pacity of the states to handle.’ But, Senator has already committed. That is the program O’Brien, do not tell me for one minute that of this government, that is what it intends to we are walking away from our responsibili- do, and that is why it is more interested in ties on this issue. I believe that every state, playing politics and driving in political other than Western Australia, has signed this. wedges than getting results on the ground But to commit $700 million to a problem and delivering agricultural sustainability and that is basically a state problem shows the environmental restoration. credibility—the overwhelming credibility— Senator BOSWELL (Queensland— of the federal government and its commit- Leader of the National Party of Australia in ment to address some of these environmental the Senate and Parliamentary Secretary to issues. the Minister for Transport and Regional Yes, the land clearing is not as far ad- Services) (6.31 p.m.)—That was an amazing vanced as the salinity problem is. But let us speech. If one was listening to that, one give credit where credit is due, and it is cer- would think that the prime responsibility of tainly due to a government that commits land management and salinity was a Com- $700 million to a particular problem. As far monwealth issue. If Senator O’Brien cares to as the tree clearing or land clearing part of consult his Constitution, he will find that it is the motion is concerned, there has been cor- not. It is primarily a responsibility of the respondence between Premier Beattie and state governments, who are not meeting their the Prime Minister, Mr Howard. Even as late responsibilities and are trying to flick it back as 16 February, the Prime Minister wrote to to us. You cannot mount any argument at all the Premier and said that ‘the regulation of to deny that, under the Constitution, the re- vegetation management is essentially a state sponsibility for maintaining tree clearing and responsibility’, and that ‘the responsibility salinity is a state responsibility. Even when for the design and implementation of land we come in and kick the tin, you do not ac- clearing arrangements remains a matter for cept it; you want more and more. your government’—and it is: it is a state re- This motion before us now goes to the sponsibility. Every other state government in failure of the bilateral agreement between Australia has met its responsibilities and Queensland and the Commonwealth, in rela- come down with some sort of clearing re- tion to the National Action Plan on Salinity gime. and Water Quality, to address the matter of But, unfortunately, even though all the land clearing in Queensland. Clearly, here other states have cleared much of their land, the Democrats have confused the two issues: Queensland has not proceeded down that the salinity issue and the tree clearing issue. clearing path and has a lot of uncleared land. I will refer to the salinity issue first and That is unfortunate for the Queensland farm- say that our credibility is good. Last week ers. They do not mind sharing the responsi- the Prime Minister and the Premier of bility, but they are saying that all the burden Queensland signed a bilateral agreement, is being placed on Queensland. I want to say under the National Action Plan on Salinity this: farmers are great environmentalists, and Water Quality, to address the salinity and because it goes to self-protection. If they do water quality problems in Queensland. Not not look after their land, they will not have only did we do that but also we put $700 any land: it will not produce anything, it will million into supporting it. That is hardly an not grow a crop, if it is flogged to death. act of a government that is walking away Quite often you will hear them saying that, from its responsibilities. That is an act of a with X paddock, you cannot flog it; you have Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 711 to take the stock off it. I want to say this: state of Queensland. We cannot look at land there are no greater environmentalists than clearing simply in the context of salinity Australian farmers, because they have to be alone. Extensive land clearing affects biodi- environmentalists. If they are not, they end versity and it affects land degradation, in- up with their property greatly reduced in cluding salinity issues. It affects water qual- terms of its earning power. ity and, of course, the global issue of green- The Prime Minister has said that land house. Any government’s response to the clearing and tree clearing is a state govern- issue of land clearing, if we truly want to ment issue. He then says, ‘We do have a address this issue, cannot be compartmen- greenhouse problem, but the Commonwealth talised into salinity alone. There needs to be does not wish to be prescriptive about how a strategic approach that takes into account further significant reduction in land clearing all of the relevant impacts across the eco- is undertaken.’ So, in effect, the Prime Min- system. It is not an issue that we can afford ister is saying, ‘Mr Beattie, you come up to waste time with; it is not an issue on with a plan, you get the agreement of the which we can afford political argy-bargy. But graziers of Queensland with that plan, and the reality we face is that this is exactly the we’ll come to the party again and give you situation in which we find ourselves. further assistance.’ I turn now to the National Action Plan on I reiterate the first part of my speech— Salinity and Water Quality. Labor supported there will be $700 million for salinity and the government’s proposal to deal nationally then a commitment in writing that we will with the issue of salinity when the Prime come in and pick up some of the tab for tree Minister announced the National Action Plan clearing. But, first, Premier Beattie has got to on Salinity and Water Quality in October put that plan to the federal government, and 2000. It is only sensible that a national re- he has got to get an agreement on that plan sponse is required, given the geographical from the graziers. The Prime Minister has spread of the catchments and the need for a committed himself to fund some of the costs catchment based approach. It is also sensible for the land clearing decision in Queensland. that the states are involved in the response, but it is unfortunate that the attitude of the This leads me to a problem we have in Commonwealth has militated against any Australia with respect to property rights. activity or any solutions being delivered up Graziers and farmers were given water re- to this time. sources and they were given land title, and what went with those rights, those licences, Queensland was the first state to sign the those leases was ‘use it or lose it!’ They were intergovernmental agreement on the national told: ‘Get out there and clear!’ ‘Get out there action plan in January 2001. The fact that and use the water!’ ‘Get out there and irri- Queensland was the first state shows their gate!’ ‘Grow cotton for the prosperity of preparedness to deal with the issue promptly. Australia!’ ‘Grow wheat!’ Later on in time, Queensland is in a much better position than we discovered that we had overcommitted the southern and the western states to deal those resources. People had put in infra- with salinity. We do not yet have the major structure, but now they have to surrender salinity outbreaks that are experienced in some of those rights. They are doing it not other states so Queensland has the best on behalf of themselves but on behalf of chance to develop measures which can pre- Australians, because the amount of water vent the devastating environmental and eco- resources was originally overestimated. nomic impacts of salinity. Prevention, I sug- gest, is much cheaper; it is surely more de- Senator McLUCAS (Queensland) (6.39 sirable and in fact more effective than reha- p.m.)—The issue of land clearing is, I be- bilitation that will have to be adopted in lieve, the most urgent and potentially the other states. However, there remains only a most devastating environmental and, conse- small window of opportunity for Queensland quently, economic issue that we as a nation to develop effective prevention strategies. face. While it is certainly the case for the nation, it is also certainly the case for my 712 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

Last August, Queensland sent their signed clearing, it claims that issue is a state respon- bilateral agreement to the Commonwealth. sibility. Only two weeks ago, some seven months Tree clearing not only impacts on salinity later, it was countersigned by the Common- and water quality but can also reduce biodi- wealth. Seven months that could have been versity and lead to significant greenhouse used to further the work of preventing salin- gas emissions. Scientists in developing the ity in that state have been wasted. In fact, the framework to control tree clearing in Queen- only state the federal government had signed sland chose biodiversity to underpin the de- the bilateral agreement with before the fed- cision making process in that state. Degrada- eral election was the then coalition state of tion issues such as salinity were then over- South Australia. We can only conclude that laid over this biodiversity framework. The the Commonwealth is playing politics with Howard government, I am afraid, does not the states on this issue. The fact is that the seem to understand we need an integrated Queensland government was set to protect approach to address tree clearing that ad- areas that were not only endangered but that dresses not only salinity and water quality were of concern under its freehold land but also biodiversity and greenhouse issues. clearing legislation. There is no consistency in the way the How- The Queensland Labor government had ard government deals with environment and consulted and negotiated extensively with natural resource management issues. Its de- industry and environmental interests in the cision making is based on political expedi- development of this legislation. It had also ency not sound environmental management. committed over $100 million to ensure that There can be no clearer example of this the legislation could be properly imple- than Deputy Prime Minister Mr Anderson’s mented. What it needed from the Common- ability to find $40 million during the election wealth was matching funding to compensate campaign for the Namoi cotton growers in those affected by this legislation. Having his own electorate. During the Senate esti- heard Senator Boswell’s address, I have to mates, however, AFFA officials seemed to say that he agrees with me. The Labor Party have no clear understanding of where the acknowledged that there was a role for the money was going to come from. They indi- national government and in the last election cated that it may come from the national ac- considered their responsibilities and the na- tion plan or possibly from the Natural Heri- tional leadership that is required for salinity tage Trust. Mr Anderson can find $40 mil- issues. They announced a comprehensive lion for his own electorate, with no clear policy which would have delivered $100 guidelines about how the money is to be million to Queensland to fund a partner- spent or where it may come from. However, ship—a partnership between the state and the when a state Labor government develops national government, and a partnership be- legislation and commits over $100 million tween land-holders and governments and the dollars to address the most serious environ- environment sector to deliver a sensible, mental problem facing this country, Mr An- achievable outcome. derson simply claims that it is a state respon- Land-holders and leaseholders would have sibility. There is no strategic approach, no been compensated for changed agricultural consistency, just political expediency from practices. Land clearing rates would have this government on environment and natural slowed, and environmental outcomes would resource management issues. have improved. However, the federal gov- What adds to my concern over this issue is ernment has been demanding matching that not only does tree clearing continue un- funding from the state governments for its abated but also this government has squan- National Action Plan on Salinity and Water dered half of Telstra in the process. The par- Quality. However, when the Queensland tial sale of Telstra, we were told, would ad- government needs $100 million in matching dress serious environmental and natural re- funding to address the serious issue of land source management issues. I am afraid it has not. The national action plan does provide an Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 713 opportunity to address tree clearing where it the motion but I will digress for a moment to leads to dry land salinity and erosion im- respond to both Senator O’Brien and Senator pacting on water quality. However I believe McLucas and demolish them. Their party that the federal government should work had 13 years to do something about salinity with the Queensland government to develop in this country and they did nothing. Senator a separate package to deal comprehensively McLucas comes in here and complains about with the issue of tree clearing. the 16 months in which no money has come The National Action Plan on Salinity and forward, and the seven months until the Water Quality is devised to build on the agreement was signed, but the reality is that Natural Heritage Trust. It is not a program this government was the first government in designed to implement the legislative history to do something about the salinity framework or the national strategic approach problem. Then they digressed in other direc- that is required to control tree clearing. The tions. Queensland government has the legislation I will respond precisely to Senator Cherry but it needs the Commonwealth government and his straw man. The bilateral agreement to match its funding so that it can compen- between the Commonwealth and Queen- sate those affected. This is no less than the sland, as Senator Ian Macdonald said, was Commonwealth is demanding of the state in signed on 1 March this year. Indeed, every relation to funding for the national action state that has so far signed bilateral agree- plan or now the NHT. ments with the Commonwealth to implement I know that community groups in northern the National Action Plan on Salinity and Queensland are frustrated with the federal Water Quality does engage tree clearing government. During recent discussions with quite comprehensively as a fundamental is- regional strategy groups, such as the Burde- sue in dealing with salinity and water quality. kin Dry Tropics Group which has developed More than that, the issue is also dealt with as a natural resource management strategy for one of the core issues in the overarching in- the Burdekin catchment, members expressed tergovernmental agreement for the national frustration at the lack of action from the fed- action plan from which the bilateral agree- eral government. It has been 16 months now ments have subsequently been developed. since the announcement of the national ac- Clause 27 of the intergovernmental agree- tion plan and no money at all has hit the ment prohibits tree clearing in priority ground in northern Queensland. The com- catchment areas where it would lead to ‘un- munity is extremely frustrated and it de- acceptable land and water degradation’. In serves to be treated in a more inclusive way. the bilateral agreement itself there are nu- It is distressing that tree clearing continues at merous references to vegetation management alarming rates in Queensland and urgent ac- aimed at achieving tree clearing constraints, tion is required to stop what is happening. again, not just in Queensland but in all other The Howard government’s attempts to states that have become parties to the pro- blackmail the Queensland Labor government gram. This is quite central to the entire ap- are not going to solve this issue. The Queen- proach being adopted by the Commonwealth sland government clearly has the capacity and states in this historic effort to engage the and the will to act on this issue but it needs salinity and water quality challenges facing federal government support. the country. Clause 20.3 of the agreement Senator HERRON (Queensland) (6.49 with Queensland delivers a commitment p.m.)—The motion before us refers to ‘the from Queensland to ensure, to the best of its failure of the bilateral agreement between abilities, that regional vegetation manage- Queensland and the Commonwealth in rela- ment plans for the priority regions are com- tion to the national action plan for salinity to pleted in a way that informs the development address the matter of land clearing in Queen- of national resource management plans that sland’. Senator Cherry spoke to that and, of will be developed to implement the national course, erected a straw man and then demol- action plan and which will provide the key ished it. I was going to restrict my remarks to guide as to where clearing may or may not 714 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 occur in the context of the national action on water degradation and in order to protect plan. Australia’s productive farm and grazing land There are then a range of clauses to ensure as important contributors to our economy. So both the Commonwealth and the state meet for Senator Cherry to claim the bilateral their obligations under that clause. For ex- agreement does not address the issue of tree ample, clause 20.5 provides for a rapid sa- clearing is just plain wrong. If what he is linity assessment to be engaged in order to really saying is that the Commonwealth inform the development of the regional should not have signed an agreement with vegetation management planning process Queensland to combat salinity and water that is under way in Queensland under its quality problems in that state without some own vegetation management legislation, sort of agreement for a total ban on tree which in turn will be a key contributor to the clearing then he fails totally to understand wider natural resource management plans of the national action plan. If his observation the national action plan process. As my col- was rather that there is more to be done in league Senator Boswell quite rightly pointed relation to further constructive dealing with out, in the Constitution that is a state respon- Queensland on vegetation management is- sibility—a key point that seems to have been sues then he would be right and he should be missed by the speakers from the other side. perfectly confident that that work is indeed Admittedly there are state Labor govern- ongoing. But to claim that the bilateral ments right throughout the country, and one agreement does not deal with the issue in would not want to think that they would be relation to the matter at hand, which is the partisan in that approach and would have a National Action Plan on Salinity and Water different approach if it were any other gov- Quality, is just plain wrong and a misinter- ernment of another political persuasion, but pretation. one is constrained to think that that may be The ACTING DEPUTY PRESI- their reasoning. DENT—Order! The time for the debate has The rapid salinity mapping provision is expired. there to ensure the decisions made by COMMITTEES Queensland in relation to tree clearing in Community Affairs Legislation areas covered by the national action plan Committee might be well informed, even ahead if neces- sary, of the finalisation of the natural re- Employment, Workplace Relations and source management plans where vegetation Education Legislation Committee management will be a key element—and I Reports pay due credit to the Queensland government Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (6.55 for that. Clauses 20.7 through to 20.9 then p.m.)—On behalf of the chair of the Com- deal with the issue of ensuring there is an munity Affairs Legislation Committee, appropriate level of information sharing be- Senator Knowles, and the chair of the Em- tween Queensland and the Commonwealth ployment, Workplace Relations and Educa- for both governments to feel confident each tion Legislation Committee, Senator Tierney, is meeting its obligation under the national I present the reports of the committees on action plan in relation to ensuring there is, as their examination of annual reports tabled by the intergovernmental agreement requires, no 31 October 2001. land clearing that leads to unacceptable land Ordered that the reports be printed. or water degradation. Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport So there are in fact comprehensive refer- Legislation Committee ences to tree clearing in the bilateral agree- Report ment as befits the clear understanding that such clearing is well known to be one of the Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (6.55 causes of dryland salinity, which is what the p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Crane, I present national action plan seeks to address in terms the report of the Rural and Regional Affairs of its impact not just on land degradation but and Transport Legislation Committee on Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 715 matters referred to the committee during the France which took place from 1 October previous parliament. 2001 to 4 October 2001. Ordered that the report be adopted. GOVERNMENT AGENCY BUDGET CONTRACTS Consideration by Legislation Committees Return to Order Reports The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (6.56 (Senator McLucas)—I table the following p.m.)—Pursuant to order, and at the request document pursuant to the order of the Senate of the chairs of the respective committees, I of 20 June 2001, as amended on 27 Septem- present the reports from the Community Af- ber 2001: fairs Legislation Committee, the Employ- Departmental and agency contracts—Letters ment, Workplace Relations and Education of advice—Employment and Workplace Rela- Legislation Committee, the Environment, tions portfolio. Communications, Information Technology COMMITTEES and the Arts Legislation Committee, and the Membership Finance and Public Administration Legisla- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT tion Committee in respect of the 2001-02 (Senator McLucas)—The President has additional estimates, together with the Han- received letters from party leaders seeking sard record of the committees proceedings variations to the membership of various and documents received by a committee. committees. Ordered that the reports be printed. Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- COMMITTEES sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- Scrutiny of Bills tion) (6.59 p.m.)—by leave—I move: Report That senators be discharged from and ap- Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (6.56 pointed to committees as follows: p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Cooney, I pres- Community Affairs Legislation Commit- ent the second report of 2002 of the Standing tee–– Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills. I also lay on the table Scrutiny of Bills Alert Digest Participating member: Senator Crossin No. 2 of 2002 dated 13 March 2002. Community Affairs References Commit- Ordered that the report be printed. tee–– DOCUMENTS Participating member: Senator Crossin Auditor-General’s Reports Economics Legislation Committee–– Report No. 36 of 2001-02 Participating members: Senators Cherry The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT and George Campbell (Senator McLucas) (6.57 p.m.)—In accor- dance with the provisions of the Auditor- Economics References Committee–– General Act 1997, I present the following Participating members: Senators Cherry report of the Auditor-General: Report No. 36 and George Campbell of 2001-02—Information support services— Employment, Workplace Relations and Benchmarking implementation and produc- Education Legislation Committee–– tion costs of financial management informa- tion systems. Participating members: Senators Cherry, Collins and Crossin DELEGATION REPORTS Parliamentary Delegation to France Employment, Workplace Relations and Education References Committee–– Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (6.57 p.m.)—by leave—I present the report of the Participating members: Senators Cherry, Australian Parliamentary Delegation to Collins and Evans 716 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

Environment, Communications, Infor- Question agreed to. mation Technology and the Arts Legisla- tion Committee— AUSTRALIAN CITIZENSHIP LEGISLATION AMENDMENT BILL Participating member: Senator George 2002 Campbell HIGHER EDUCATION LEGISLATION Environment, Communications, Infor- AMENDMENT BILL (No. 1) 2002 mation Technology and the Arts Refer- ences Committee— HUMAN RIGHTS AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY COMMISSION Participating members: Senators George AMENDMENT BILL 2002 Campbell and Evans COAL INDUSTRY REPEAL Finance and Public Administration Ref- (VALIDATION OF PROCLAMATION) erences Committee–– BILL 2002 Participating members: Senators FAMILY AND COMMUNITY Crossin and Evans SERVICES LEGISLATION Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Ref- AMENDMENT (FURTHER erences Committee–– SIMPLIFICATION OF INTERNATIONAL PAYMENTS) BILL Participating member: Senator Evans 2002 Legal and Constitutional Legislation TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT Committee— (SUPERANNUATION) BILL (No. 1) 2002 Participating member: Senator Evans INCOME TAX (SUPERANNUATION Substitute member: Senator Ludwig to PAYMENTS WITHHOLDING TAX) replace Senator McKiernan till close of BILL 2002 business 12 April 2002 TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT Legal and Constitutional References (FILM INCENTIVES) BILL 2002 Committee— PROTECTION OF THE SEA (PREVENTION OF POLLUTION FROM Participating members: Senators Crossin and Evans SHIPS) AMENDMENT BILL 2002 STUDENT ASSISTANCE AMENDMENT Substitute member: Senator Lundy to BILL 2002 replace Senator McKiernan for the committee’s inquiry into outsourcing of First Reading the Australian Customs Service’s In- Bills received from the House of Repre- formation Technology sentatives. Rural and Regional Affairs and Trans- Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- port Legislation Committee–– sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- Participating member: Senator Evans tion) (7.00 p.m.)—I indicate to the Senate Substitute member: Senator Colbeck to that these bills are being introduced together. replace Senator Ferris from 19 March After debate on the motion for the second 2002 till close of business 22 March reading has been adjourned, I will be moving 2002 a motion to have eight of the bills listed separately on the Notice Paper. I move: Rural and Regional Affairs and Trans- port References Committee–– That these bills may proceed without formali- ties, may be taken together and be now read a Participating members: Senators first time. Crossin and Evans Question agreed to. Substitute member: Senator Colbeck to replace Senator Ferris from 19 March Bills read a first time. 2002 till close of business 22 March 2002. Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 717

Second Reading Clearly, some aspects of citizenship legislation Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- need, over time, to evolve to reflect the changing sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- realities of the Australian community. tion) (7.02 p.m.)—I table a revised explana- This bill updates aspects of citizenship law, re- tory memorandum relating to the Taxation fines and enhances provisions relating to children and young adults, and strengthens existing integ- Laws Amendment (Film Incentives) Bill rity measures. 2002 and move: Turning firstly to the need to update the law on That these bills be now read a second time. loss of citizenship, this bill will repeal section 17 I seek leave to have the second reading of the Australian Citizenship Act 1948, so that speeches incorporated in Hansard. adult Australian citizens in future do not lose their Australian citizenship if they acquire another Leave granted. citizenship. The speeches read as follows— The government’s decision to proceed with this AUSTRALIAN CITIZENSHIP LEGISLATION change follows widespread community consulta- AMENDMENT BILL 2002 tion over the last few years, undertaken initially The purpose of this bill is to update a number of by the Australian citizenship council and, more aspects of Australian citizenship law. recently, by the government through the release of a discussion paper. The bill was originally introduced into the par- liament in August 2001 by my colleague the Hon Submissions to the government strongly sup- Philip Ruddock and flows from the government ported repeal of section 17: over 800 submissions response to the report of the Australian Citizen- were received in response to the release of the ship Council, Australian Citizenship for a New discussion paper in June 2001; almost all sup- Century. I commend Philip Ruddock for his sig- ported repeal of section 17. In fact, since the nificant contribution in this area. launch of the government response we have re- ceived close to two thousand representations from The Australian Citizenship Council reported in people expressing support for the early repeal of February 2000. The government response, Aus- section 17. tralian Citizenship… a Common Bond, was re- leased in May 2001. This change will allow the growing numbers of internationally mobile Australians to take advan- The government response is designed to encour- tage of opportunities overseas, while maintaining age all Australians to value their citizenship and their links with Australia and bringing back to the contains a commitment to update and strengthen Australian community their valuable expertise aspects of citizenship law. and knowledge. The government agreed with the Australian Citi- It will also bring Australia into line with the citi- zenship Council that, in its relatively short 53 zenship law of many other comparable countries, years of existence, Australian citizenship has including the U.K., Canada, New Zealand, USA, been a major success story. France and Italy. Apart from giving a new and unique legal status The changes will benefit those adult Australian to those in Australia at the time of its introduc- citizens who acquire another citizenship after the tion, Australian citizenship law has evolved to be new law is passed and comes into effect. one of the most welcoming and inclusive in the world and has been the basis for over 3 million This bill also introduces a number of enhance- migrants becoming full participants in our soci- ments to citizenship legislation in the interests of ety. young Australians. The government believes that the overall inclu- The bill extends the citizenship by descent provi- sive and non-discriminatory approach to Austra- sions to allow children born overseas to an Aus- lian citizenship, that is premised on welcoming, tralian citizen parent to be eligible for registration without undue barriers, migrants and humanitar- as an Australian citizen by descent until they turn ian entrants who come to Australia as part of the 25 years of age. Currently the age limit is set at planned migration and humanitarian programs, 18 years. should continue as the basis for future Australian Similarly, the bill extends the resumption provi- citizenship law and policy. sions to allow young persons who renounce their Accordingly, there will be no change to the basic Australian citizenship in order to retain another criteria for grant of Australian citizenship which, citizenship, to be eligible to resume their Austra- in general, are working well. lian citizenship until they turn 25 years of age. 718 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

Many young people re-examine their identity and Acceptable reasons will be prescribed in regula- future around the ages of 18 to 25. These changes tions. Currently the citizenship act leaves open will give young people more opportunities to indefinitely the time a person, approved for Aus- acquire or resume Australian citizenship. tralian citizenship, has to make the pledge of The bill will also provide for children under 16 commitment. who acquire Australian citizenship by grant with I believe that in their totality, these initiatives will their parent, or at a later date, to be given their significantly enhance the integrity of the citizen- own citizenship certificate. ship process. Currently the law requires children under 16 to This bill also extends concessions in relation to have their names endorsed on the back of their meeting the residence in Australia requirement parent’s certificate. for grant of Australian citizenship, which have Provision of individual citizenship certificates to been available for many years to people who have these children is an appropriate way to recognise served in the permanent defence force, to people their individual citizenship status and will facili- who have served as full time members of an tate their having appropriate citizenship docu- Australian reserve force for at least six months. mentation upon reaching adulthood. Although Australian citizenship is now a re- Turning to integrity issues, this bill strengthens quirement for service in the reserve forces, this the integrity of the citizenship process in a num- has not always been the case. ber of ways. There may, therefore, be some people who have Firstly, the bill requires persons aged 18 years and spent substantial periods of time in the reserve over who seek either to be registered as Austra- forces who have not yet acquired Australian citi- lian citizens by descent, or to resume Australian zenship and such people will benefit from this citizenship, to be of good character. change. It is important that these people of adult age be of This change recognises the significant contribu- good character to access Australian citizenship. tion of our reserve forces. Secondly, the bill extends the ban on the grant of This bill also inserts a note referring to “people Australian citizenship from 2 years after release smuggling” offences in the provision relating to from prison, to 10 years, for a person who is a deprivation of Australian citizenship. serious repeat offender. This amendment will not change the existing The government agrees with the Australian citi- policy settings for deprivation of Australian citi- zenship council that a period of 10 years repre- zenship. sents a more appropriate length of time for any Rather, it will highlight that a person who com- such applicants for citizenship to demonstrate that mitted a “people smuggling” offence before a they are of good character. decision to grant a citizenship certificate, and is Thirdly, the bill introduces powers for the minis- sentenced to imprisonment for a period of not less ter to revoke, in certain circumstances, the grant than 12 months, after lodging the application for of a certificate of citizenship before actual confer- the citizenship certificate, may be deprived of ral of citizenship and also to defer conferral of Australian citizenship. citizenship for a 12 month period in certain cir- The government considers it important to draw cumstances. attention to the potential for the existing citizen- These changes will ensure that a person does not ship deprivation provisions to be used in this way automatically proceed to become an Australian as we wish to highlight the seriousness that we citizen if, in the period between a decision to attach to people smuggling crimes. grant and actual conferral of citizenship, it be- Finally, the bill makes the avenue of review comes evident that the person does not, or may available for decisions on revocation of the grant not, meet the requirements for grant of Australian of a certificate of citizenship before conferral of citizenship. citizenship; decisions on resumption of Australian Fourthly, the bill provides the minister with a citizenship by young people; and decisions on power to revoke the grant of a certificate of Aus- good character in applications for registration of tralian citizenship before conferral of citizenship Australian citizenship by descent. where the person has failed to make the pledge of In summary, this bill will update and enhance commitment within 12 months after being noti- citizenship law to improve its operation in some fied of the decision to grant citizenship, without important areas. an ‘acceptable reason’. Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 719

It is an important bill and one which will help ers may respond by making the courses more create an even more robust Australian citizenship accessible. for the 21st century. The purpose of this Bill is to expand the opportu- My colleague the Hon Philip Ruddock had great nities for overseas-trained professionals to un- pleasure in introducing the bill into the last par- dertake such bridging courses without increasing liament and I know that he continues to have a the burden on Australian taxpayers. To be eligible close, personal interest in Australian citizenship for the loan, the applicant must hold professional and the value these changes will make to a great qualifications that have been awarded in another many Australians. country. In effect this means that these people will I commend the bill to the Senate. be post-graduate students and it is in line with current trends in higher education funding that ————— students pay full fees for post-graduate courses. HIGHER EDUCATION LEGISLATION Last year, in order to improve Australia’s skills AMENDMENT BILL (No. 1) 2002 base, the Post-graduate Education Loan Scheme In the May 2001-2002 budget, the Government (PELS) was introduced to give post-graduates announced the establishment of an interest-free access to the same sort of financial assistance that loan scheme designed to expand opportunities for is available to undergraduates who defer their overseas-trained professionals to meet the formal education costs through HECS. recognition requirements of their professions in The proposed bridging loan scheme will provide Australia. The purpose of this Bill is to establish similar assistance to overseas-trained profession- this loan scheme, called the Bridging for Over- als who enrol in bridging courses. As the courses seas-Trained Professionals Loan Scheme are limited to non-award courses of no more than (BOTPLS) to assist overseas trained professionals one year’s full-time study, these people are likely to cover the costs of bridging training. to enter the work force and begin repaying their Australia attracts a significant number of over- loans more quickly than either HECS or PELS seas-trained professionals, most of whom intend recipients. Participants repay their loan through to work in their profession in Australia. Many the taxation system once their income reaches the professions have regulations associated with em- minimum threshold for compulsory repayment. ployment, some of which are legal while others Australian permanent residents who hold a Cen- are a matter of employment practice. All such trelink concession card will still have access to professions require the assessment of qualifica- the Assessment Fee Subsidy For Disadvantaged tions and, in some cases an examination is re- Overseas-Trained Australian Residents (ASDOT) quired. For many overseas trained professionals, programme, which will not be affected by this bridging courses are recommended, either as Bill. preparation for the examination or to make up It is expected that implementation of the bridging knowledge gaps that have been identified through loan scheme will provide overseas trained profes- the assessment process. For example, a dentist or sionals with a cost-effective pathway to recogni- medical practitioner might take a clinical bridging tion. Under the new scheme clients will not be course to prepare for the examination while an prevented from enrolling in bridging courses due overseas trained lawyer or an accountant might be to limitations on the number of government- required to take a unit in Australian taxation law. funded places. Nor will they be dissuaded from Governments have long recognised the value to pursuing training because they are unable to pay the community of assisting overseas trained pro- course costs at the time of enrolment. fessionals to undertake bridging courses and the To be eligible for the new scheme applicants will Commonwealth Government took over responsi- require an assessment statement from the relevant bility for funding such courses from the State gazetted assessing authority and this will specify Governments in the early 1990’s. While the cur- the nature of the additional training that is re- rent programme has benefited approximately 500 quired. people per year, the demand for bridging courses has exceeded the supply because the number of Based on the numbers who have participated in places has been limited by the programme budget. the current bridging programme and predicting an Some course providers have restricted their of- increase over time, it is estimated that the loans ferings in line with the availability of govern- provided under the proposed scheme will amount ment-funded places. It is expected that the new to some $12 million over the next five years and programme will make it possible for more people will assist in the order of 3,000 participants to to take advantage of bridging courses and provid- enter their profession in Australia. 720 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

It is the Government’s intention that the new Individuals who believe that they have been dis- bridging loan scheme will commence on 1 July criminated against by a State since that time will 2002. The Bill allows for transition arrangements be able to pursue a complaint after commence- for participants who started their bridging course ment of the bill—as if the drafting oversight had in first semester 2002. not occurred. I commend the Bill to the Senate. This will be welcome news to applicants in ————— Commonwealth anti-discrimination cases against States. HUMAN RIGHTS AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY COMMISSION Since the Amendment Act States have acted as if AMENDMENT BILL 2002 they were bound by Commonwealth anti- discrimination law—as indeed they were intended The Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Com- to be. mission Amendment Bill 2002 will ensure that the States are bound by the complaints and reme- The measures in the bill simply re-instate the dies provisions in the Human Rights and Equal situation that was believed by all to be the case Opportunity Commission Act 1986. prior to the Rainsford decision. The bill is needed to rectify a drafting oversight Consistently with this Government’s commitment that was identified in a Federal Magistrates Serv- to the effective operation of Commonwealth anti- ice case late last year called Rainsford v State of discrimination laws, the Government has moved Victoria [2001] FMCA 115. quickly to remedy this unintended drafting over- sight. The oversight occurred in amendments in the Act that commenced on 13 April 2000. The bill will have little, if any, financial impact. These amendments were made in the Human ————— Rights Legislation Amendment Act (No. 1) 1999 COAL INDUSTRY REPEAL (VALIDATION OF (the Amendment Act). PROCLAMATION) BILL 2002 Prior to the commencement of the Amendment The purpose of this bill is twofold: firstly to con- Act on 13 April 2000, the legislative structure for firm that the Coal Industry Repeal Act 2001 handling complaints alleging unlawful discrimi- commenced on 1 January 2002 as intended; and nation was set out in each of the Acts dealing secondly to validate all actions taken on the as- with the specific areas of sex, disability and race sumption that it commenced on 1 January 2002. discrimination. Last December the Governor-General in Execu- That is, the Racial Discrimination Act 1975, the tive Council made a Proclamation setting the Sex Discrimination Act 1984, and the Disability commencement date at 1 January 2002, but be- Discrimination Act 1992 respectively. cause of an administrative oversight the Procla- mation was not Gazetted before that date, which The complaints and remedies provisions in each means the Act may not have commenced on 1 of these Acts bound the States prior to the com- January as intended. mencement of the Amendment Act. This has ramifications for actions taken by New When the complaint handling structure was South Wales which rely on the commencement of moved from the three specific Acts into the Act, the Coal Industry Repeal Act 2001. no provision was made to ensure that the Act bound the States in relation to complaints and The Coal Industry Repeal Act 2001 provides for applications to courts. the dissolution of the Joint Coal Board and en- ables New South Wales to transfer all of its func- The provisions in each of the anti-discrimination tions, staff, assets and liabilities to a new body acts continued to apply to the Sates in the same established under New South Wales law. This way as before—but the complaint handling removal of unnecessary Commonwealth in- structure did not. volvement in the New South Wales coal industry This was an unintended drafting oversight in the has been supported by all parties. The com- Amendment Act. mencement by Proclamation of the Coal Industry The reforms in the bill will make sure that actions Repeal Act 2001 was timed to coincide with the for unlawful discrimination under Common- commencement of New South Wales legisla- wealth anti-discrimination law can be brought tion—the Coal Industry Act 2001- establishing a against a State in the same way as before the new body to take over the properties and func- Amendment Act. tions of the Joint Coal Board. As well as allowing for a seamless transition, the coordinated com- These amendments have retrospective effect from mencement date also reflects a Parliamentary 13 April 2000 so that there is no gap in coverage. Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 721 undertaking that the Government would not pro- pensioners overseas are required to have 25 years claim the Coal Industry Repeal Act 2001 until of Australian working life residence. Other coun- New South Wales was ready to go ahead. tries require that people contribute for around 40 From 1 January 2002, New South Wales has acted years before the full rate of pension can be paid, as if the Proclamation fixing the commencement and often there are further restrictions on the pay- date of Coal Industry Repeal Act 2001 had been ability of these pensions outside those countries. properly constituted. The legal basis of many of To bring Australia in line with international stan- the actions taken by the New South Wales Gov- dards this bill extends the required residence pe- ernment and the ongoing activities of Coal Serv- riod to 30 years under the Social Security Act ices Pty Ltd—the new body established by New 1991. South Wales to take over the properties and func- The bill also further recognises the valuable con- tions of the Joint Coal Board—is uncertain. tribution that senior Australians make to our While this uncertainty remains, it can act to con- community. The bill allows people who defer straint on the activities of Coal Services Pty Ltd their age pensions and register with the Pension in providing essential services to the New South Bonus Scheme to add their bonus periods under Wales coal industry. There is an urgent need to the Scheme to the Australian working life resi- remedy this situation and to put beyond doubt the dence period they accrued before they reached validity of all actions taken on the assumption age pension age. As a result they may be paid a that the Coal Industry Repeal Act 2001 had come higher long-term overseas rate. into force on 1 January 2002. The amendments made to the Social Security Act The Government has taken urgent action to rem- 1991, in relation to the Australian working life edy the situation and provide certainty to the op- residence, will only apply to anyone who departs erations of the New South Wales coal industry. Australia after the commencement day of the amendments. A person who is absent from Aus- As an interim measure, the Governor-General’s tralia on the commencement day will be subject Proclamation was gazetted on 1 February 2002. to these amendments only if they return to Aus- This provides a signal confirming the Common- tralia and stay for 26 weeks or more. wealth’s intent that the Coal Industry Repeal Act 2001 commenced on 1 January 2002. However, The bill also equalises the treatment of debts in- the validity of the Proclamation and hence the curred by people who receive lump sum pay- commencement of the Act still remains uncertain. ments of foreign pension. This bill is necessary to put beyond doubt that 1 Where a person receives lump sum arrears, of a January 2002 is the date of commencement for comparable foreign payment from a country with the Coal Industry Repeal Act 2001 and to validate which Australia has an international social secu- all actions taken on the assumption that the Act rity agreement, the overpayment of Australian had come into force on that date. I seek the full pension, for the period covered by lump sum, is support of this Parliament in progressing this bill recovered. In contrast, where the same type of quickly. lump sum payment is received from other coun- tries, no debt is currently incurred. The new debt ————— recovery provision in the Social Security Act FAMILY AND COMMUNITY SERVICES 1991 ensures that overpayments of Australian LEGISLATION AMENDMENT (FURTHER social security payments arising from these ar- SIMPLIFICATION OF INTERNATIONAL rears payments are debts and that they are recov- PAYMENTS) BILL 2002 erable. The purpose of the bill is to give effect to the ————— 2001-02 Budget initiative to bring the payment of TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT Australian pensions to people overseas long-term (SUPERANNUATION) BILL (No. 1) 2002 in line with international standards. It also equal- ises the rules under which overpayments are re- The Government announced in its ‘A Better Su- covered from people receiving foreign pensions. perannuation System’ statement last year that temporary residents permanently departing Aus- The rate of Australian pensions paid in Australia tralia would be able to access their superannua- does not depend on a person’s length of Austra- tion. The taxation arrangements for this measure lian residence. However, Australian pensioners are set out in this bill. There are only a very lim- residing overseas on a long-term basis are paid a ited number of situations where people are able to ‘proportional’ rate that reflects their length of access their superannuation funds before preser- Australian residence. Currently, to be paid a full vation age. Temporary residents who have per- pension after an absence of longer than 26 weeks, manently departed Australia will not be retiring in 722 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002

Australia and often wish to take their superannu- tions to Australia. This is aimed at providing in- ation benefits with them to the country in which creased opportunities for Australian casts, crew, they live, but are currently unable to do so. The post-production and other services to participate Government is proposing amendments to the Su- in large budget productions, and to showcase perannuation Industry (Supervision) Regulations, Australian talent—with concomitant benefits for which will in future allow such persons to access employment and skills transfer. their superannuation on departing Australia. The incentive has a number of eligibility criteria, However, as the payment will be to a temporary which are aimed at large budget film productions resident who will not be using the payment for that have significant production expenditure in retirement in Australia it would not be appropri- Australia. In particular films will have to meet a ate for the payment to receive concessional taxa- minimum requirement of at least $15 million in tion treatment. Accordingly, this bill, in conjunc- qualifying Australian expenditure to be eligible. tion with the Income Tax (Superannuation Pay- Films with at least $15 million but less than $50 ments Withholding Tax) Bill 2002, imposes spe- million in qualifying Australian expenditure will cial rates of taxation on superannuation paid to have to spend seventy per cent of their total ex- temporary residents permanently departing Aus- penditure in Australia. Films with qualifying tralia, and requires funds to withhold taxation Australian production expenditure of $50 million from such payments at those rates. These or over will not have to meet the seventy per cent amendments will claw back the taxation conces- requirement. sions on these payments while still allowing tem- The provision of a refundable tax offset will al- porary residents permanently departing Australia low Australia to compete internationally for large to take their superannuation, rather than requiring budget film productions. The refundable tax off- them to leave it in Australia until retirement. set is to be applied at a rate of twelve and a half Full details of the measures in this bill are con- per cent to qualifying Australian expenditure of a tained in the explanatory memorandum. film project. This incentive is expected to amount I commend the bill to the Senate. to approximately 10 per cent of a film’s cost of production, varying as qualifying Australian ex- ————— penditure is more or less of the total production INCOME TAX (SUPERANNUATION expenditure. PAYMENTS WITHHOLDING TAX) BILL 2002 Eligible films must have been completed on or This bill, in conjunction with the Taxation Laws after 4 September 2001. The refundable tax offset Amendment (Superannuation) Bill 2002, imposes for film production expenditure in Australia is special rates of taxation on superannuation paid to effective from the announcement date and can be temporary residents permanently departing Aus- claimed from the income year ended 30 June tralia. Together with proposed amendments to the 2002. Superannuation Industry (Supervision) Regula- Since the Government announced its plan to pro- tions, these amendments will claw back the taxa- vide a refundable tax offset for film production in tion concessions on these payments while still Australia, consultation has occurred with domes- allowing temporary residents permanently de- tic and international large film studios, film pro- parting Australia to take their superannuation, ducers, and film industry peak bodies. rather than requiring them to leave it in Australia until retirement. The Government considers the consultation proc- ess involved with this measure to have been a Full details of the measures in this bill are con- very positive and worthwhile process. I would tained in the explanatory memorandum. like to thank all those involved in that process for I commend the bill to the Senate. their effort in contributing to the development of ————— this bill. TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT (FILM Full details of the measures in this bill are con- INCENTIVES) BILL 2002 tained in the explanatory memorandum. This bill creates a refundable tax offset for film I commend the bill to the Senate. production in Australia. This was announced by ————— the Government on 4 September 2001 as part of PROTECTION OF THE SEA (PREVENTION its ‘Integrated Film Package’. OF POLLUTION FROM SHIPS) These measures are designed to give effect to the AMENDMENT BILL 2002 Government’s strategy to provide an incentive to The Protection of the Sea (Prevention of Pollution attract expenditure on large budget film produc- from Ships) Amendment Bill will amend the Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 723

Protection of the Sea (Prevention of Pollution mechanism in relation to debt recovery and ad- from Ships) Act 1983 (the “Pollution Prevention ministrative appeals for these schemes. Act”). The Pollution Prevention Act implements The first amendment is to permit Social Security, the International Convention for the Prevention of Veterans’ and Family Assistance legislation over- Pollution from Ships, commonly known as payments to be offset against benefits payable MARPOL, and it is therefore the principal Com- under the AIC scheme and the ABSTUDY monwealth Act intended to prevent pollution scheme, as had previously been permitted until from ships. 1998. Recent amendments to the Pollution Prevention The second amendment is a minor change to up- Act revised the offence and penalty provisions. date the definitions in the Act to reflect that the These were implemented by the International Aboriginal Overseas Study Assistance Scheme no Maritime Conventions Legislation Amendment longer exists. Act 2001 (the “IMCLA Act”) most of which commenced on 1 October 2001. The third and final amendment is to increase the 7-day notification period within which students Prior to the commencement of the IMCLA Act are obliged to notify of certain prescribed events amendments only owners and masters of ships in Section 48 and related sections of the Act to a could be prosecuted for discharges of pollutants, 14 day period. This amendment will align Section such as oil, noxious substances or garbage from 48 of the Act with Section 344 of the Act, which their ships. The IMCLA Act amended provisions relates to the notification period for a change of in the Pollution Prevention Act to ensure that any address. It will also provide a consistent approach person, rather than just the ship’s master or to the administration of the AIC and ABSTUDY owner, whose negligent or reckless conduct schemes and other Commonwealth programs causes an unlawful discharge of pollutants from a administered by Centrelink. ship into the sea is guilty of an offence. Owners and masters of ships remain strictly liable for These proposed amendments will ensure greater discharges of pollutants from their ships, whether consistency in arrangements between the Student or not other persons have recklessly or negli- Assistance Act and the Social Security Act in gently discharged pollutants, although owners and terms of permitting the recovery of overpayments masters, because they are held strictly liable, are and also the required notification period. subject to lesser penalties. I commend the bill to the Senate. An unintentional consequence of the IMCLA Act Debate (on motion by Senator Mackay) amendments to the Pollution Prevention Act was adjourned. to exclude the offence provisions from taking Ordered that the Taxation Laws Amend- affect in Australia’s Exclusive Economic Zone. In accordance with the original policy intent behind ment (Superannuation) Bill (No. 1) 2002 and the IMCLA Act the current bill provides that the the Income Tax (Superannuation Payments offence provisions in the Pollution Prevention Act Withholding Tax) Bill 2002 be listed on the have effect in the Exclusive Economic Zone. Notice Paper as one order of the day, and the In relation to the offences of strict liability there remaining bills be listed as separate orders of are a number of existing defences set out in the the day. relevant provisions of the Pollution Prevention REGIONAL FOREST AGREEMENTS Act. For example, there is no strict liability of- BILL 2002 fence if a discharge occurs for the purpose of securing the safety of the ship or saving life at sea In Committee or the discharge occurs in accordance with the Consideration resumed. strict conditions set out in MARPOL. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN ————— (Senator Hogg)—The question is that Aus- STUDENT ASSISTANCE AMENDMENT BILL tralian Greens amendment (6) on sheet 2432 2002 revised be agreed to. The purpose of the bill is to amend the Student Senator MURPHY (Tasmania) (7.03 Assistance Act 1973 (the Act). The ABSTUDY p.m.)—In regard to this amendment, I made and Assistance for Isolated Children (AIC) the point earlier about the Commonwealth schemes are non-statutory (executive) schemes having constitutional power to put laws in funded through the Appropriation Acts. The Stu- dent Assistance Act 1973 provides the statutory place. The matter I referred to earlier was 724 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 part V, section 51(xxxix) of the Constitution. ple have been sacked from the industry of Section 51(xxxix) says: native forest logging since Prime Minister The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, Howard signed the agreement with the then have power to make laws for the peace, order and Liberal Premier—which was taken up with good government of the Commonwealth with even greater gusto by the now Labor Pre- respect to:- mier, Jim Bacon—in Tasmania, in which the (xxxix) Matters incidental to the execution of Prime Minister said it would create 550 jobs any power vested by this Constitution and that, to that end, they would put $80 in the Parliament or in either House million for starters into the Tasmanian in- thereof, or in the Government of the dustry. In fact, a minimum of 450 jobs has Commonwealth, or in the Federal Ju- been lost. Senator O’Brien is not going to dicature, or in any department or offi- deny that, the government is not going to cer of the Commonwealth. deny that, yet we have this extraordinary That is my argument—we have the constitu- situation where both of them will say, ‘We’re tional right. I am really doing that for the doing this for jobs.’ information of your officers, Minister Mac- Senator O’Brien has today said, ‘Well, we donald, who were seeking that information. I might get some veneer made. The Finns are was going to try and get it to them otherwise, looking at the whole logs we’re exporting to but I have now put it on the public record. Finland and, if they’re impressed, they might Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (7.05 come and set up a veneer plant in Tasmania p.m.)—This amendment, on behalf of the using regrowth.’ What Senator Murphy has Australian Greens, will ensure that there is had to say about that is enlightening: that it parliamentary scrutiny of the regional forest has been tried before—and it has—and the agreements. Both the Labor Party and the promise is always kept there, dangling in government have said, ‘There are mecha- front, but it does not turn out. The idea that a nisms for looking at the regional forest use, such as veneer, has to be found for re- agreements and, when those agreements de- growth points to another major fault with the fault in terms of management, employment whole way the forests in Tasmania are being commitments and the environment, the par- handled—that is, where are the sawlog for- liament will be able to look at it.’ What both ests for the future? Huge amounts of Tasma- the Labor Party and the government do not nia have been planted with Eucalyptus say is that they will have no power to do nitens. I challenge either the government or anything about it. The whole thrust of this the opposition to get up and say this is good piece of legislation is to remove the current sawlog timber. It is not; it is fast-growing, powers—and obligations which come with imported eucalypt from the mainland, which those powers—to manage, on behalf of the is for pulp. nation, and oversee the natural values of for- It is not a sawlog driven strategy we have ests and to ensure that the states, which are had in Tasmania; it is a pulp driven strat- getting more than $300 million out of na- egy—that is, a woodchip driven strategy— tional taxpayers to inject into the industry, which denies and puts the lie to the idea this expend that money judiciously and with legislation is aimed at creating jobs, because good employment outcomes. the woodchip industry is a gross job shedder. The evidence is clear that there has been That is why jobs have been lost since Prime job shedding on a very large scale, particu- Minister Howard made his hollow promise. larly in Senator O’Brien’s home state, my The sawlog industry has been bypassed and, home state of Tasmania. Despite repeated as we heard in that letter to Senator O’Brien challenges to both the Labor Party and the from Mr Hayward from Wigeena earlier to- government in here, this is not counter- day, the fact is that over 90 per cent of the manded, because there is nothing to be said Tasmanian native forests is now being ex- about it by Senator O’Brien on behalf of the ported as woodchips rather than being util- Labor Party or by the government. Hundreds ised as sawlog. This is extraordinary be- of jobs have been shed and hundreds of peo- cause, in other countries, it would be the Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 725 other way around: it would be 90 per cent millions of dollars have been lost because of going to sawlog and 10 per cent, as waste, Forestry Tasmania’s debt. going to woodchipping. This is a rampant Then, in 1997, after this regional forest misuse and waste of a once-only resource in agreement was signed by Prime Minister the native forests of Tasmania. That is why Howard, $110 million all up went into the Senator Murphy has felt impelled to take Tasmanian industry—$64 million earmarked such a forward role in the debate—because for Forestry Tasmania. In 1998, $52.197 he has been there at the coalface, he has rep- million of capital and interest due on soft- resented the workers and he has seen the in- wood loans from the Commonwealth was dustry mismanagement with his own eyes. written off. If you put those together, you We need parliamentary scrutiny for ex- have well in excess of half a billion dollars actly the opposite reason to the one given by going into the forest industry, and particu- Senator Macdonald on behalf of the govern- larly Forestry Tasmania, out of the public ment. He says, ‘It is a democratic bill; it will purse in the last 14 years. Half a billion dol- take away mischievous government inter- lars in a little state like Tasmania! vention.’ What he means by that is that it will It is worth noting that Forestry Tasmania’s take away the ability of governments to act pre-tax operating profit is well below what at all in the national interest. Acting on the would be expected in the private sector. It environmental interests of the Australian had a 1.1 per cent return on net assets in the people is seen by the minister and by the last available year, 1999-2000. It would be Howard government as mischievous, more profitable to put the money that has whereas we know, in effect, that the Austra- gone to Forestry Tasmania into an interest lian people have moved well ahead of both bearing bank account. The pre-tax profit of the National Party and the Labor Party and Forestry Tasmania of $8.3 million in that want to see what is left of these grand forests year is even less than it first appears, because and their wildlife protected because they are it includes interest income of $2.9 million enormous job creators in terms of the attrac- from investments, including $71 million of tiveness of those forests—both to Australians the RFA money. A big component of the and to people from all around the world. profit Forestry Tasmania can show is actually It is instructive to look at the financial per- interest out of the taxpayers’ money going formance of Forestry Tasmania because that through the RFA into Forestry Tasmania. It is brings into focus why there should be a na- not from the selling of the forests at all, be- tional overview. Remember that Forestry cause that is being subsidised. The people Tasmania has been in receipt of enormous making the profit out of the forests are public largesse, including from the federal Gunns Pty Ltd. They have a 35 per cent re- taxpayer. In 1988 it received $51.44 million turn on their investment while Forestry Tas- as a result of the Helsham inquiry settlement, mania mismanages the public domain of the and that came out of taxpayers’ pockets right forests and, even worse, uses the largesse around Australia. In 1990, the then Labor coming from here to falsely give the appear- Premier, Michael Field, tragically transferred ance that it is making a profit when it is not. the accumulated $272 million debt of For- Forestry Tasmania’s profit has fallen dra- estry Tasmania into the public debt. In other matically over the three financial years to words, he took it off Forestry Tasmania, 1999-2000, despite increasing wood volume which had been growing this debt—to use sold. Operating expenses have risen faster Treasurer Costello’s new verbiage—and put than operating revenue, despite the higher it into the public debt where it could not be wood volumes—most of which come from seen but where, since that year, it has been native forests. It is just not possible to work attracting interest-free payments and, there- out which components of operating expenses fore, has been taking millions of dollars out are blowing out, because the annual report of schools, hospitals, police stations and does not give that breakdown. However, the other public amenities in Tasmania. Tens of recent borrowing of $14 million by Forestry Tasmania dramatically exceeds the amount 726 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 borrowed over the last few years. I ask the tailed eagle—something that Senator Brown minister, as surveillance now, not some dele- was blaming on the RFA. We now find, gated committee further down the line: why through interjection, that the incident oc- are the profits in Tasmania falling while the curred in 1992. As with so many of Senator amount of wood cut and processed is in- Brown’s allegations, the incident referred to creasing? Why are the returns so low on that occurred many years ago, and his use of the asset? Why are the operating costs blowing incident to criticise Tasmanian forest man- out? What has happened to the public agement therefore takes into account none of money? What is the pre-tax profit for this the improvements since that time. It does not year estimated to be? Why did Forestry Tas- take into account the National Forest Policy mania have to borrow $14 million in the last Statement and it does not take into account year when it had only so recently received the RFAs and the better management since $110 million, or at least $64 million of the those times. It is just typical of Senator $110 million, from Tasmanian taxpayers? Brown’s deliberate misconstruction of the What is going on? real issues involved in this debate. I will return to this matter tomorrow, be- Progress reported. cause when you look at Forestry Tasmania’s ADJOURNMENT so-called ‘profit’, you find that it has been falsely aggregated by a reassessment of the The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! It value of the standing forests in Tasmania. being 7.20 p.m., I propose the question: From year to year they say, ‘The value of the That the Senate do now adjourn. forests has gone up by X million dollars. Population Policy That is profit.’ It is a very false accounting Senator PAYNE (New South Wales) (7.20 trick. If you take that out, Forestry Tasmania p.m.)—It was a pleasure to see and hear is running at a very great loss—despite the Senator McLucas in the chair this afternoon. millions being injected into it by the public I want to make a few remarks this evening purse. Meanwhile, up the road in the private on a broad policy area, often known as sector, Gunns Pty Ltd is making a killing population policy. The day before yesterday, through exporting the forests to the Japanese the All Party Parliamentary Group on Popu- woodchip market at a huge windfall profit to lation and Development met. It is a group of itself because its infrastructure is paid for which I have been a member for some time through Forestry Tasmania by the public. and which is usually focused on population The other thing that Gunns Pty Ltd is so policies in our region. I was very pleased to good at doing to enhance its profit line is be made the secretary of that group this sacking its workers. Where is the CFMEU week. I am hopeful that there will be a focus and where is the Labor Party when that hap- in this parliamentary term on population pens? They are silent. policy issues in Australia. I suspect that if Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- media attention since last month’s population sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- summit in Melbourne is any indication, this tion) (7.18 p.m.)—There is one minute left is likely to occur. for this debate and, for Senator Ludwig’s What is more important is that the debate benefit, I rise now. If I did not, Senator is an informed, serious-minded one and, Brown would use an obtuse standing order to most particularly, an open-minded one. speak for another 15 minutes. Whilst I am While the national media attention is wel- here to answer questions that are germane to come, for the most part it has glossed over the bill, none of the questions Senator Brown the finer detail of issues, including, some has put to me on this occasion are. I will take would say, the state of the environment. That the next 40 seconds to point out another of has been a disappointment of the coverage. the inconsistencies of Senator Brown’s ar- The link between population and environ- gument. ment is extraordinarily complex and deserves We were talking this morning about an in- deep consideration. Within each component cident concerning the Tasmanian wedge- part of the population debate, such as the Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 727 environment, there is great divergence of very real concerns in the community. That is views. Take for example the argument that a tension that does not add anything but population size is not the dominant factor in rather detracts from the seriousness of the environmental outcomes. Agricultural activ- debate itself. People have every reason to ity in this country is geared more towards take a serious look at ethnic harmony, the our overseas markets. For example, Austra- economic negatives of unskilled migration— lians consume only eight per cent of the total as they are often called—the environment Australian water consumed. The rest goes and other factors. All of these issues deserve into our agricultural exports. consideration. One does not need to be dis- While population size may not be a domi- missive of problems in absorbing New Aus- nant factor in environmental degradation, it tralians or of concerns about the environment is very important as an indirect link. In a to promote population growth. I think that globalised economy, the bigger the popula- any difficulty in absorbing New Australians tion size, the more imports we require to be is more than made up for by their long-term brought into Australia. It follows naturally productivity and the enrichment they bring to then that we would have to ride our primary Australia and to the national diversity, which industries and our processing industries to will be a real asset in an increasingly global- drive our exports to pay for those imports. ised system. There is a range of views amongst envi- We have only to look at, for example, the ronmental policy activists concerned with celebration of next week’s Harmony Day. I population. Some would describe as austere have spoken before of the richness of our and perhaps technologically pessimistic the Australian community, particularly of course view of the Australians for a Sustainable in Greater Western Sydney. Next week’s Population Group, who basically want noth- Harmony Day coincides with the UN Inter- ing short of immediate action to reduce our national Day for the Elimination of Racial population. That, on the other hand, is tem- Discrimination. It has been growing bigger pered by bureaucratic analysis which, while every year. As the Minister for Citizenship being concerned about long-term and Multicultural Affairs has said: sustainability, asserts that we will in fact face The concept of Harmony Day grew from the a critical stage in about 70 years from now. Commonwealth Government’s Living in Har- mony initiative in 1999 and provides a valuable So those who have promoted panic in the opportunity for people to celebrate Australia’s recent past concerning resources have, on cultural diversity and stand up against racism. some views, burdened themselves and some aspects of the green movement as a whole So whether for Harmony Day this year you with a credibility challenge. In the 1980s, for are a supporter of Guides New South Wales, example, some environmentalists misinter- a fan of Killing Heidi, a member of the Re- preted the findings of the Club of Rome as turned Services League, a member of Scouts saying that the world’s natural resources Australia or a supporter of Surf Lifesaving would be consumed by the end of the 1990s. Australia, all those diverse groups will be Clearly they did that to spur reform. Instead, part of the celebration of that diversity on because the world has not ended as perhaps Harmony Day next week. predicted, aspects of the green movement are On the issue of environmental concern, not always treated as seriously as perhaps although I am in favour of an increased they ought to be. In the Australian just this population for Australia over the next 50 week, for example, one columnist wrote: years, I can also acknowledge that resource ... the notion that Australia can’t hold any more management is a serious problem, if not an people without choking implies that science, the immediate crisis. That is not about holding supposed ally of the greenie, won’t find new ways two opposing views; that is about balance. to protect or improve the environment in the fu- Our over-reliance on non-renewable energy ture. and inefficient use of renewable resources So, aside from those who oversimplify the have to be addressed. Real concerns about debate, we have others who dismiss some our environment should be the driving force 728 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 for investment in new technology and infra- creased immigration 50 years on. The link structure. It is entirely possible that a larger that is often drawn between environmental population would, in fact, mean more money damage over that same period and popula- to invest in green technology. I want to refer tion size many would say is largely spurious. briefly to Minister Kemp’s speech at last In fact, it is rather a problem that lies in envi- week’s Ian Clunies Ross National Science ronmental management. While the environ- and Technology Award presentation dinner ment must be a factor in population fore- where he said: casting, other considerations will also pre- … there are some very positive signs. Domestic vail. The effect that population growth has and international demand for ‘green industries’ is on our economy, the effects of the mix of our high. More Australian businesses and environ- refugee, family reunion, skilled migration mental industry customers are adopting a triple and general migration streams have on the bottom line approach and voluntarily taking ac- economy, the issues of internal distribution tion to improve their performance—the environ- of our population and international relations ment as a business externality is being progres- are the key issues that should be top of mind sively internalised. in Australia’s population debate. At a recent forum on research setting priorities, Australian scientists nominated the environment I am interested to note the involvement of and sustainability issues as the top future research Professor Borrie in a population conference priorities. Clearly, there is a strong concern and a to be held in Sydney this coming October. need and desire for knowledge. The 1973 Borrie report was the first indica- An OECD study indicates that only half of the tion that Australia’s ageing population was a environmental technology the world will need in cause for concern and that government pol- 2015 has been invented. In 40 years time there icy planning should take note of this issue. will be many well-to-do industries that do not This had an enormous effect and was one of exist today. the things that led to, for example, the intro- According to a CSIRO team that has re- duction of a superannuation system in this viewed the findings of the Club of Rome, it country and, in more recent times, many has always been a misinterpretation that would say, a broad based indirect tax. I will ‘adjustment pain’ would happen sooner look with great interest at that October de- rather than later. The CSIRO says that the mographers’ conference because it does have club’s position was that serious resource the potential to deliver some real suggestions scarcity would occur in around 2070. But, on population policy rather than just being clearly, from the blase comments in the another talkfest. press, typified by the one I referred to earlier, It is interesting to note that, since the con- many remain to be convinced. ference in the late 1940s, we have had We need to bring together sufficient power countless others which have been important and force to really deal with long-term for public airing of opinions and for sharing problems that can be resolved only in a se- of information and theories but they have not ries of electoral cycles, not in one govern- really reached the sort of agreement that oc- ment term. One of the most pressing is curred in the 1940s. Since so much time has changing our stock of infrastructure rather passed since World War II, it is also impor- than only the invention of new technologies. tant to note that international relations does That is a process that takes decades. The big not seem to be the same sort of dominant inertia that holds back progress is the in- consideration, notwithstanding the recently vestment of dollars and technology that we launched war on terror. The most recent currently have in our current infrastructure Melbourne conference indicated in parts of into new systems to the point that it actually its communique that there were other factors has a real effect on cleaning up air and water. which they regarded as important to be part The last time we had a major population of an integrated policy framework. I look debate in this country was post World War II, forward in this term to continuing to discuss and we are all enjoying the legacy of the de- the issue of population policy and exploring cision to boost our population through in- Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 729 other challenges and developments in this $1.8m of Cancer Council funds to 10 new re- area. search projects: Cancer Council of New South Wales: MRI/MRS applied to breast cancer detection, Research Projects diagnosis and prognosis Senator HUTCHINS (New South Wales) Dr Carolyn Mountford—Institute for Magnetic Resonance Research, St Leonards (7.30 p.m.)—Last Thursday I had the honour of being invited to the awards of the Cancer This project trials the use of a new breast cancer Council of New South Wales for 10 new re- test that promises to be more accurate, non- invasive and without side effects. Using magnetic search projects in New South Wales. I was resonance technology, the test can diagnose and the only federal member of parliament there. stage breast cancer without the need for surgery I am not sure whether or not any of my col- or X-rays. If proven, this test will mean fewer leagues were invited. It was held in the women develop lymphodoema due to too much American Club in Macquarie Street in Syd- lymph tissue being removed. ney. If colleagues are invited to attend at this Molecular mechanisms of drug resistance in venue, I suggest that they do because it gives childhood acute lymphoblastic leukaemia you a great view of Sydney Harbour while Dr Richard Lock—University of New South you enjoy a meal and hear about the great Wales work being done by the Cancer Council of The researchers have developed an experimental New South Wales. model that mimics the proliferation and dissemi- Dr Andrew Penman, who is the head of nation of leukaemia cells in order to determine the Cancer Council of New South Wales, why some children with acute lymphoblastic leu- announced funds from the council of $1.8 kaemia (ALL) do not respond well to drug ther- million to 10 new research projects. At the apy. lunch to announce the winners of the 10 The role of FHL1 and SPINK1 in androgen- projects were a number of people who had independent prostate cancer survived cancer and their families, a number Dr Qihan Dong—University of Sydney of corporate donors and a number of people Prostate cancer cells are dependent on male hor- connected with bequests from estates and mones or androgens for their growth. When men their families, who may have been second have prostate cancer that has spread and can’t be and in some cases third generation from the removed by surgery, they are given hormone original persons who donated their money to therapy that stops the production of androgens the Cancer Council of New South Wales. and therefore the growth of the cancer. However, There were also, of course, a number of peo- for an unknown reason, this therapy is only effec- tive for one year. This project aims to find out ple from the medical and scientific commu- why. nity. A number of these donors are and wish to remain anonymous. Their contribution to A national consortium for research into famil- trying to lift the level of research into this ial breast cancer life-threatening disease is to be commended. A/Prof Judy Kirk—Familial Cancer Clinic, Madam Deputy President, I have approached Westmead Hospital the Government Whip on this: I have a copy The aim of this Australia-wide study is to collect of the fact sheet from the Cancer Council of data on approximately 700 families who inherit a New South Wales dated 7 March which lists predisposition to breast cancer, in order to provide more accurate genetic counselling, better surveil- in no particular order the 10 recipients of the lance and ultimately, better preventative and research project awards. I seek leave to in- treatment methods. corporate in Hansard the fact sheet. Lymphocyte activation and anti-tumour im- Leave granted. munity mediated via SAP-associating surface The document read as follows— receptors in health and disease (Lymphoma) Fact Sheet Dr Stuart Tangye—Immune Regulation Group, Centenary Institute The Cancer Council This study looks at an inherited immunodefi- New South Wales ciency called XLP that is associated with an in- Thursday 7 March 2002 creased susceptibility to the glandular fever virus 730 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 that can lead to the development of lymphoma. Media Contacts: There are wide reaching applications for under- Lisa Johnston 9334 1878 or 0413 886 578 standing anti-viral immunity and the development of cancer in the general population. Andrew McCutcheon 9334 1960 or 0411 408 647 Sentinel node Vs axillary clearance trial Senator HUTCHINS—Madam Deputy (breast cancer) President, if you saw me at question time Dr John Stevens—St Vincent’s Hospital Lismore today struggling over the word ‘advocacy’ you can imagine my difficulty with some of This study tests a new surgical procedure for the words in the research projects that are breast cancer called Sentinel Node Biopsy (SNB) that limits the amount of tissue that is removed. It going on. I want to list in no particular order is an opportunity for improving the outcomes for the professionals who were given the money many women who undergo surgery for breast for the research projects: Dr Carolyn cancer . Mountford, Dr Richard Lock, Dr Qihan Role of 1,25dihydroxyvitamin D3 in photopro- Dong, Associate Professor Judy Kirk, Dr tection (skin cancer) Stuart Tangye, Dr John Stevens, Associate A/Prof Rebecca Mason—University of Sydney Professor Rebecca Mason, Dr Beric Henderson, Professor Martin Tattersall and Vitamin D is normally made in skin by the action Associate Professor Leonie Ashman. of sunlight and is important for the absorption of calcium and phosphate. This study looks into I want to highlight, again in no particular previous observations that have indicated vitamin order, four of the projects that were recipi- D may also play a role in protecting skin cells ents of the research grants. Dr Mountford is from the damaging effects of sunlight. from the Institute for Magnetic Resonance Regulation of beta-catenin nuclear trafficking Research at St Leonards. Her project trials in cancer the use of a new breast cancer test that Dr Beric Henderson—Westmead Institute for promises to be more accurate, non-invasive Cancer Research, Westmead Millennium Institute and without side effects. Using magnetic Beta-catenin is a protein that is over expressed in resonance technology, the test can diagnose a number of different cancers including colon and stage breast cancer without the need for cancer, liver cancer and melanoma. This study surgery or X-rays. If proven, this test will looks at why too much beta-catenin converts mean fewer women developing lymphodo- normal cells to cancer cells, in order to develop ema due to too much lymph tissue being re- new drugs that inhibit this process. moved. When the treatment goal is not cure: a ran- Professor Judy Kirk is from the Familial domised trial of decision aids for patients with Cancer Clinic at Westmead Hospital. The incurable metastatic cancer aim of her project is to have an Australia- Prof Martin Tattersall—University of Sydney wide study to collect data on approximately This project tests the usefulness of particular aids 700 families who inherit a predisposition to for patients with incurable breast or bowel cancer breast cancer, in order to provide more accu- to allow them to participate more in decisions rate genetic counselling, better surveillance about their care. These aids include an instrument and ultimately better preventative and treat- used by doctors and patients in consultations and a take-home booklet and audiotape for patients, ment methods. which both outline treatment options, benefits and Dr John Stevens is from St Vincent’s Hos- likely side effects. pital in Lismore. His project deals with a Role of PETA-3/CD151 in epithelial cancer sentinel node procedure for breast cancer. invasion and metastasis This study is to test a new surgical procedure A/Prof Leonie Ashman—University of Newcastle for breast cancer called sentinel node biopsy This project seeks to determine the role of a pro- that limits the amount of tissue that is re- tein (present on the surface of many cancer cells) moved. It is an opportunity for improving the in the spread of cancer, and to test the ability of outcomes for many women who undergo antibodies to reverse this spread. While this study surgery for breast cancer. involves skin and breast cancer cells, the findings Finally, I highlight the project of Professor should apply to a broad range of tumours. Martin Tattersall from the University of Syd- Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 731 ney. His project is titled ‘When the treatment nificant number of people who wish to re- goal is not cure: a randomised trial of deci- main anonymous. sion aids for patients with incurable meta- International Women’s Day static cancer’. Professor Tattersall’s project tests the usefulness of particular aids for pa- Adelaide Fringe Festival tients with incurable breast or bowel cancer Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- to allow them to participate more in deci- tralia—Leader of the Australian Democrats) sions about their care. These aids include an (7.39 p.m.)—I rise this evening to acknowl- instrument used by doctors and patients in edge this year’s International Women’s Day, consultation and a take-home booklet and which was last Friday, 8 March, and to wish audio tape for patients which outline treat- women in this place and the House a par- ment options, benefits and likely side effects. ticularly happy International Women’s Day, The Cancer Council of Australia com- albeit belatedly. Of course, parliaments play menced its events this morning with a par- a significant role in relation to improving the liamentary cancer information network quality of women’s lives—for example, their meeting here. The council will have a num- rights to freedom from discrimination, their ber of events: in May of this year there will rights to control their own bodies—and in be the Biggest Morning Tea; in June an eat supporting legislation and policy that pro- and run and nutrition physical activity and vides the supports for women’s lives. Fortu- cancer conference; Daffodil Day is on 23 nately, since Federation, the number of August; a cancer call is on 5 September; women in this and other parliaments in Aus- Australia’s Breast Cancer Day is on 28 Oc- tralia has increased, albeit slowly. This year tober; and a national skin cancer action week we also commemorate 100 years since most is on during 17 to 23 November. It is impor- non-indigenous Australian women were tant that we as parliamentarians recognise granted both the right to stand for parliament that money needs to be spent on research and the right to vote. I am proud to state on into how to deal with cancer. As I said, this the record that again South Australia, my $1.8 million came from private donors. home state, was one of the first places in the There are a number of state parliamentary entire world to grant all women that right. colleagues there—Meredith Bergmann, the When we review our progress—and it is President of the Legislative Council of New an appropriate thing to do given the centen- South Wales, Jenny Gardiner and Don Har- ary celebrations—we also recognise that we win, both National Party state members of have a long way to go. We certainly have a parliament, and two ex-MPs, Ron Phillips lot to celebrate but we also have some cam- and Marie Ficarra. paigns to fight before, firstly, women are While I have this time left, and I under- equally represented in our democracy; for stand we are being broadcast, I want to make example, the latest figures show that 27 per sure that people understand the facts about cent of parliamentarians are female. In the why this sort of research is necessary. One in Australian federal parliament, 25 per cent of three men and one in four women will be parliamentarians are women. Despite a directly affected by cancer before the age of growing voice in the parliament, there re- 75. Each year more than 80,000 new cases of mains a great range of issues that need to be cancer are diagnosed in Australia. More than addressed. One of the issues that I would like half of them will be treated successfully. The to address tonight is the issue of paid mater- survival rate for many common cancers has nity leave. increased by more than 30 per cent in the Certainly, in the last election campaign the past two decades, but cancer is still the Prime Minister, Mr Howard, named the top leading cause of death in Australia—almost domestic challenge as ‘how we better bal- 36,000 people died from cancer in 2000, and ance work and family responsibilities, so that amounted to 28 per cent of all deaths. I important to millions of Australians and their bring this to the attention of the Senate be- families’. I agree with him. At that time the cause this is a truly generous effort by a sig- Australian Democrats proposed a national 732 SENATE Wednesday, 13 March 2002 paid maternity leave scheme. In the months Federation of Business and Professional since, I have heard a great deal from business Women, which is an enthusiastic supporter people, both men and women, about mater- of paid maternity leave, that many of the nity leave and paid maternity leave specifi- women who own small businesses cannot cally. The response shows that our Prime afford the time off even for themselves when Minister was indeed right in naming this as they have a baby, let alone volunteer it for one of the top domestic challenges. As a their employees, however much they might number of businesses in this country have want to. So in some respects it is simply a realised, paid maternity leave is an important matter of affordability. For every example of part of the picture. Of course, workers with an advance in a big company, there are thou- families need more than paid leave. Parents sands of smaller businesses that are not in a also need secure part-time work, accessible position to offer paid maternity leave. As reasonably priced child care and flexibility in many have told me, they already juggle staff their hours and days of work, without being to cover unpaid maternity leave and many confined, if you like, to some kind of sec- are concerned that an ‘employer pays’ sys- ond-rate ‘serious parent track’ in their work- tem of leave will encourage discrimination places. Well towards the top of the list, how- against potential mothers. ever, must be a national system of paid ma- Clearly, any national approach cannot af- ternity leave. It is clear that many Austra- ford to penalise small business. If small lians now believe that it is time to take a businesses have to pay for maternity leave, it systematic approach to this issue. I am proud will create a disincentive for them to employ that the Democrats have been at the forefront women and potentially cost jobs. For these of putting this issue on the national agenda. reasons alone, there is a strong argument for Australia’s work and family practices, es- a basic level of maternity leave to be pro- pecially maternity leave, lag well behind the vided by government. Only this way can the rest of the world, and they probably contrib- element of luck be removed from accessing ute to our falling fertility rates. At present, paid leave. Larger businesses can then offer only about one-third of Australian women longer periods of leave or even higher levels have access to any kind of paid maternity of pay, topping up the universal minimum leave. Most are in the public sector or work- payment for a minimum period. ing for large employers. Many low income Paid maternity leave will create a commu- women can take leave on the birth of a child nity benefit. It will make a difference to our only if they have an alternative source of economic health and the long-term health of income, and yet their access to paid leave is our whole community. We all benefit from probably disproportionately low. The option the creation of the next generation, not least to stay at home with a new baby should not in tax revenue and productive work. Many in be a privilege available only to well-paid our community, I think, recognise that the women in big workplaces or in government. time is right to improve maternity and par- The large number of comments that have enting supports in Australia. been made to me and the party about this I note that the opposition this week has issue suggest that we should be finding a said that it will go to the next election con- national solution to this problem that at least sidering this issue and putting the issue of provides some basic benefit to all Australian paid maternity leave on the agenda. Perhaps women who are in our work force. Unfortu- we can achieve some kind of cross-party nately for the majority of Australian women support or, at least, debate on this issue in the today, waiting for the generosity of individ- interests of Australian women so that we do ual employers to volunteer paid maternity not have to wait any longer. We are already leave is clearly not a realistic or a feasible so far behind the other democracies and in- option. Indeed, I acknowledge that for many dustrialised nations of the world. I want us to small businesses it creates a new problem find a workable, fair solution. I look forward with new fears about costs and, of course, to hearing the views of employees, employ- labour market competition. I am told by the ers, small businesses, unions and community Wednesday, 13 March 2002 SENATE 733 organisations, as well as other parties, as we DOCUMENTS work towards a plan that my party is par- Tabling ticularly determined to achieve. The following government document was As we approach a new budget round, the tabled: federal government should act on this issue. I call on the Prime Minister to take that real Advance to the Finance Minister—Sup- step forward for working families and for porting applications for issues from the working women in particular. Why not adopt Advance during July 2001 to January 2002. in-principle support for a national approach to paid leave, build it into the 2002-03 Tabling budget and take Australia into the 21st cen- tury in relation to a right that women in so The following documents were tabled by many other countries enjoy? the Clerk: In the remaining time, I want to pay trib- Defence Act—Determination under section ute to the organisers of this year’s Adelaide 58B—Defence Determination 2002/2. Fringe Festival in my home state of South Financial Management and Accountability Australia. I might reserve my remarks on the Act— Adelaide Festival for another time. It was a Financial Management and Account- far more controversial venture this year, but I ability (Special Accounts) Amendment do commend the editorial in Monday’s Ad- Determination 2002 (No. 1). vertiser which I think highlighted some of the difficulties with this year’s festival. I Financial Management and Account- want to acknowledge one good thing about ability (Special Accounts) Determina- the Fringe, apart from the many impressive tion 2002/01. acts, whether they were comedy or music or National Health Act—Determination a range of other entertainment opportunities under Schedule 1—HSR 6/2002. available to people. One comedian, Adam Indexed Lists of Files Hills, who is billed as Adelaide’s own, pre- sented a couple of great comedy perform- The following documents were tabled ances. He did so with some reflections on pursuant to the order of the Senate of 30 May what a turbulent six months it has been for 1996 as amended 3 December 1998: the world and for Australia. He rightly re- Indexed lists of departmental and agency minded us that, in the most difficult times in files for the period 1 July to 31 December our history, comedy has often been a great 2001—Statements of compliance— salve—it has been a wonderful antidote to some of the most difficult things that happen Department of Defence. to us as citizens or as countries. I would like Department of Education, Science and to acknowledge that one of his shows has Training. been made into a CD, the money from which will go to those visiting New York firefight- ers who, I understand, have been the guests of New South Wales recently. I will end by utilising what Adam Hills has coined as a motivational phrase that he is taking around the world: ‘Go you big red fire engine.’ Senate adjourned at 7.49 p.m.