Dress to Impress

“Ladies and gentlemen of the jury … So what do you think of this pantsuit?” Like many professionals, lawyers worry about their appearance. A “tired” , a stained tie or a rundown pair of may be just enough to ruin an otherwise stellar closing argument or client meeting. So while lawyers should be looking to “dress to impress,” we all know that many really put the “frump” in “frumpy.” Thus, the imagineers here at Lawyers Weekly have devised an experiment: Seventeen legal professionals. Two judges. One runway. And an unprecedented on June 3 to find out just how stunning a member of the bar can truly become. Local designers have contributed their time to gussy up the “victims,” outfitting them in attire that will be enough to dazzle any jury or corporate mucky-muck. On these pages, you’ll find the brave souls with some pre-show thoughts on fashion. To see the “after” version of the models … well, you’ll just have to join us on June 3.

The night Designers Modeling by legal Sara Campbell, Boston professionals Ports & Co., Cohasset Trunk show Frank Stella, Boston Cocktails Regan Clothiers LTD, of N.E. Hors d’oeuvres Jiwani Custom Clothiers

http://events.lawyersweekly.com tickets online at p.m. Boston I 5:30-8 6.3.08 I Langham Hotel, 30 | Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly | May 12, 2008 Dress to Impress

Anthony M. Doniger M Rachael Splaine Rollins M Age: 37 Age: 58 Area of practice: Assistant U.S. attorney Area of practice: Litigation Office: U.S. Attorney’s Office, Boston Firm: Sugarman, Rogers, Barshak & Co- Office : Professional/business-casual hen, Boston; 27 lawyers What’s your usual “” for work? If I have a court Firm’s dress code: Business-casual appearance, I always wear a . Otherwise, I usual- What’s your usual “uniform” for work? Suit ly dress business-casual. How important is it to you to look good? How important is it to you to look good? It’s important. Fairly important I’m not Miranda Priestly, but I try to look presentable Do you ever stress about what you’re going when I leave my house. to wear? No Do you ever stress about what you’re going to wear? Do you like to shop for ? No No, not really. I only own clothes that I think are flat- What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve tering and functional except, perhaps, for some of ever committed? Mismatched my shoes. But they look great. What’s one item in your that you Do you like to shop for clothing? Ah, is this a trick can’t live without? A question? Of course. What’s one wardrobe item you probably What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve ever commit- should do away with? Bow ties ted? I was a walking, talking fashion faux pas through- out high school. Can you say Robert Smith hair with Do you pay attention to the way other “Hungry Like the Wolf” eye- and face-makeup? Yikes! lawyers are dressed? Not really What’s one item in your wardrobe you can’t live without? When it comes to lawyering, do clothes Shoes — heels, in particular. Also, a great pair of make a difference? Sometimes, especial- ly before juries What’s one wardrobe item you probably should do away with? My workout clothes are old, worn, frayed, gray As a whole, how well does the legal profes- and terrible. When I go to the gym, I look like an aw- sion dress? Pretty well ful hybrid of Rocky Balboa, circa 1976, and Lou Far- rigno as he turned into the Incredible Hulk. Do you pay attention to the way other lawyers are dressed? Always. I am constantly looking to see the way other female attorneys are dressed. When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make a differ- ence? I think clothes make a difference to clients. As a whole, how well does the legal profession dress? I think we are doing OK. I would give us a B-. DAVID SPINK

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Kate M.

DAVID SPINK

Bailey M Jeffrey R. Scalzi M Age: 28 Area of practice: Age: 37 Subrogation para- legal Area of practice: Director of marketing Firm: Robinson & Firm: Foley Hoag, Boston; 250 lawyers Cole, Boston; 225 Firm’s dress code: Business-casual lawyers in eight of- What’s your usual “uniform” for work? Usually a suit fices but always a , collared (usually French Firm dress code: cuffs), dress shoes, tie — usually when I have exter- Business-casual nal meetings or presentations What’s your usual DAVID SPINK How important is it to you to look good? Very. My pref- “uniform” for erence would be a shift back to business attire. work? Nice pants and a long-sleeve . I’m usually in heels of some sort, since Do you ever stress about what you are going to wear? No, I’m on the short side. Sometimes I’ll wear a suit or a . I’m usually pretty confident when it comes to dress. How important is it to you to look good? How I dress affects how I feel. If I look good, Do you like to shop for clothing? I do like to shop, but I do I tend to feel better. If I’m dressed professionally, I find that my work ethic for the it quickly — in and out, as I usually have a few things in day reflects that. mind when I go. Do you ever stress about what you’re going to wear? Yes. There are mornings when I What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve ever committed? I look in my closet and think, “I have nothing to wear!” On those mornings, a nice think the transition from single, 20-something to married suit can be a lifesaver. father of two caused me to make a few bad choices try- Do you like to shop for clothing? Sometimes. I like to shop for clothing when I ing to hold on to those 20s. There was a peculiar light- have flexibility with my time and my budget, although nothing beats finding that blue visor that I wore to a dinner and that my friends still great outfit — especially on sale. make fun of me for. I think I’m over it now. What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve ever committed? Hmmm. … I’m sure I’ve What’s one item in your wardrobe that you can’t live without? made millions. One that I commit constantly is not properly matching my shoes My shoes. I am fairly certain I have more than my wife. and outfit with my and purse. What’s one item in your wardrobe you should do away with? I What’s one item in your wardrobe you can’t live without? My comfortable gray, wrin- actually clean out my closet every year at Christmas, so kle-resistant pants. They always look classy. what I have is worth keeping. What’s one wardrobe item you probably should do away with? My old, oversized zip- Do you pay attention to the way other lawyers are dressed? up Yes, I do, but more attention to those who take busi- Do you pay attention to the way other lawyers are dressed? I’m not an attorney, but I ness-casual too far. do pay attention to the way other paralegals dress when deciding on my work When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make a difference? wardrobe. Clothes are part of the complete package, so if the per- As a whole, how well does the legal profession dress? From my experience, most pro- son gets additional confidence that comes with dressing fessionals in the legal field have two dress codes: one for the everyday office envi- well that he/she can extend to client service, sure. ronment, which is slightly more casual, and a second for client meetings or court As a whole, how well does the legal profession dress? Generally well, appearances, which are more formal. but again, I would not mind an industry shift back to business attire. 32 | Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly | May 12, 2008 Dress to Impress

Amy Crafts M

Age: 34 Area of practice: Litigation Firm: Proskauer Rose; 110 lawyers in the Boston office and about 700 worldwide Firm’s dress code: Business-casual What’s your usual “uniform” for work? A silk skirt with some personality, a basic top and a fun neck- lace — and always nice shoes How important is it to you to look good? Very. Consis- tently looking nice is an important component of practicing law. Do you ever stress about what you’re going to wear? Rarely. I have fun with it. Do you like to shop for clothing? Yes, I’ve always loved fashion. What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve ever com- mitted? I aspire never to commit a fashion faux pas. What’s one item in your wardrobe you can’t live with- out? A nice black cashmere sweater What’s one wardrobe item you probably should do away with? An orange Marc Jacobs coat; it’s prob- ably too much for the office Do you pay attention to the way other lawyers are dressed? Yes When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make a differ- ence? Appearances are important. Dressing poorly can definitely affect perceptions of your capability/credibility. As a whole, how well does the legal pro- fession dress? I think there’s a lot of room for improvement.

DAVID SPINK

M Edward M. Ginsburg M John L. Strand

Age: 75 Age: 31 Area of practice: Family law Area of practice: Intellectual property litigation Firm: Founder, Senior Partners for Jus- Firm: Wolf, Greenfield & Sacks, Boston; 80 attorneys and tech- tice; supervisor, Legal Assistance Corp. nology specialists of Central Massachusetts; retired Probate Firm’s dress code: Business-casual; jeans OK on Fridays, with a & Family Court judge $1 donation to charity Firm’s dress code: None What’s your usual “uniform” for work? Dress pants, collared long- What’s your usual “uniform” for work? Suit sleeve shirt, with the sleeves rolled up and tie How important is it to you to look good? Very important How important is it to you to look good? Do you ever stress about what you’re going to wear? “Stress” is the Very wrong word. I definitely consider what I am going to wear each Do you ever stress about what you’re going day, however. Some days I am not happy with my choices, but I to wear? No don’t let it bug me too much. There are more important things in life. Do you like to shop for clothing? As a hunter, not a gatherer; quick and pres- Do you like to shop for clothing? Yes sured is fine with me What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve ever committed? I am What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve sure I have done many worse things, but probably wearing a ever committed? Wearing a casual sports white crew-neck shirt underneath an open-collared jacket to a formal seventh-grade dance What’s one item in your wardrobe you can’t live without? A high- What’s one item in your wardrobe you can’t quality, well-tailored, navy-blue suit live without? Butterfly bow-ties What’s one wardrobe item you probably should do away with? I tend What’s one wardrobe item you probably to hold onto old forever. I think I still have some from should do away with? An old sports jacket college. that has shrunk from hanging in the closet Do you pay attention to the way other lawyers are dressed? Yes, but Do you pay attention to the way other only if their outfit is completely inappropriate for the situation lawyers are dressed? Yes When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make a difference? Yes, but When it comes to lawyering, do clothes it depends on the situation. It doesn’t really matter what a first- make a difference? Yes year associate wears when reviewing documents in his or her of- fice. It does make a huge difference in court or during some oth- As a whole, how well does the legal profes- er official proceeding. sion dress? Quite well As a whole, how well does the legal profession dress? It depends where in the country you are. I’ve seen some people show up to official proceedings in other cities wearing completely inappropri- ate outfits — for instance, khakis and an untucked, un-ironed to take a deposition of the opposing party’s CEO or one party’s courtroom technology specialist who showed up to the first day of trial in a mauve velour sweat suit. Boston attor- neys, however, are pretty traditional dressers, and it usually works to their benefit.

DAVID SPINK Dress to Impress May 12, 2008 | Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly | 33

Gregory T. Donoghue Michelle R. Peirce

Age: 32 Area of practice: Litigation M Area of practice: In-house M (white-collar criminal defense and complex civil litigation) C ompany: Tedeschi Food Shops Firm: Donoghue, Barrett & Singal, Company’s dress code: Business-casual Boston and Providence; 20 lawyers W ’s your usual “uniform” for work? Firm’s dress code: Business; busi- Slacks and a buttoned-down shirt ness-casual on Fridays and during How important is it to you to look good? I try the summer to present a professional appearance in all What’s your usual “uniform” for work? business situations. Pantsuit Do you ever stress about what you’re going How important is it to you to look good? to wear? Occasionally — for an important Fortunately, not too important, al- hearing or meeting though it is an aspiration Do you like to shop for clothing? I like to Do you ever stress about what you’re shop for new clothes once or twice a year. going to wear? No What’s one item in your wardrobe you can’t Do you like to shop for clothing? Not at all live without? Navy suit What’s the biggest fashion faux pas W hat’s one wardrobe item you probably you’ve ever committed? Participating should do away with? Flannel jacket with in this event; trying civil contempt elbow patches case with two different shoes Do you pay attention to the way other What’s one item in your wardrobe you lawyers are dressed? Not particularly can’t live without? Lucky jeans When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make What’s one wardrobe item you probably a difference? Inappropriate clothing can should do away with? Suit with Nehru adversely influence any business situation. collar A s a whole, how well does the legal profes- Do you pay attention to the way other sion dress? The legal profession tends to lawyers are dressed? Yes be well dressed. When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make a difference? Yes As a whole, how well does the legal profession dress? C+/B- DAVID SPINK

DAVID SPINK Sarah L. Whipple M

Age: 33 Area of practice: Health care Firm: Mintz, Levin, Cohn, Ferris, Glovsky & Popeo, Boston; 500 lawyers Firm’s dress code: Business-professional What’s your usual “uniform” for work? Suit/dress, pants and sweater How important is it to you to look good? Very important Do you ever stress about what you’re going to wear? Yes Do you like to shop for clothing? Love it What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve ever committed? Wearing my clogs with a suit in the morning What’s one item in your wardrobe you can’t live without? My in winter What’s one wardrobe item you probably should do away with? None Do you pay attention to the way other lawyers are dressed? Yes When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make a difference? Yes As a whole, how well does the legal profession dress? Very well

Charles P.Wagner M

Age: 38 Area of practice: Employment law counseling and mediation Firm: Yarashus, Wagner, Boston; five lawyers Firm’s dress code: Fab/metro-sexual/1980s’ Preppy-Handbook-compliant What’s your usual “uniform” for work? Lug penny loafers, sailboat belts, khakis and blue oxford-cloth buttoned-down shirts How important is it to you to look good? Extraordinary Do you ever stress about what you’re going to wear? No Do you like to shop for clothing? Of course What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve ever committed? 1980s’ wear, before it came back What’s one item in your wardrobe you can’t live without? My mermaid belt What’s one wardrobe item you probably should do away with? My mermaid belt Do you pay attention to the way other lawyers are dressed? Of course DAVID SPINK When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make a difference? Of course not, unless, you are rainmaking, marketing, presenting live … well, every- thing except talking on the phone As a whole, how well does the legal profession dress? Conservatively taste- ful; the ad industry this ain’t DAVID SPINK 34 | Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly | May 12, 2008 Dress to Impress

John N. Riccardi M

Age: 46 Area of practice: Assistant dean for gradu- ate and international programs School: Boston University School of Law School’s dress code: Backpacks and jeans What’s your usual “uniform” for work? Blaz- er and tie — never a suit How important is it to you to look good? Not as important as feeling good. I just need to avoid being mistaken for a student. Do you ever stress about what you’re going to wear? No Do you like to shop for clothing? Only if I need something and it’s on sale What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve ever committed? Two completely mis- matched shoes

What’s one item in your wardrobe you can’t live without? Black jeans M What’s one wardrobe item you probably Alyce T. Moore should do away with? My New York Mets uniform Age: 54 Do you pay attention to the way other lawyers Area of practice: In-house are dressed? No Company: Kronos in Chelmsford; nine lawyers, with seven When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make a located in Chelmsford difference? I hope not. Company’s dress code: Basically casual. When I interviewed As a whole, how well does the legal profession at Kronos 17 years ago, I interviewed with the then-vice dress? Fairly well put together and conser- president of marketing, Pat Decker, and the then-CEO and vative; not a lot of fashionistas, which is fine founder, Mark Ain. Pat was dressed in gray flannel slacks and a white shirt, both crisply pressed, and loafers. Mark was dressed in wrinkled orange pants, a colorful flowered shirt and . I left thinking that if I got this job I could pretty much wear anything that was in my closet to work and get away with it, and I have. What’s your usual “uniform” for work? Unless there is a board meeting or I have an outside meeting, I generally wear black or khaki pants and a or sweater. I don’t like to have to think about what to wear. DAVID SPINK How important is it to you to look good? I’m as vain as the next person — it’s important. It’s just as important to me, however, to be comfortable. Do you ever stress about what you’re going to wear? Not really. I have black suits in three sizes, so when I need to dress

Marsha V. Kazarosian M up, I just grab one in the size that fits me that day. Do you like to shop for clothing? I hate shopping — for any- Age: Let’s just say that I am no longer the new kid thing — and I don’t like to spend a lot of money on clothes, on the block. so I buy most of my clothes from eBay, which my friends Area of practice: Litigation, divorce, personal injury, find appalling. criminal defense What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve ever committed? I Firm: Kazarosian Law Offices, Haverhill; four lawyers have three pairs of shoes in the same style but in three dif- Firm’s dress code: Respectful business attire, taste- ferent colors, and once I wore a black one and a blue one. ful, comfortable But I don’t think that anyone really noticed — or were too What’s your usual “uniform” for work? Rarely a suit; polite to say anything if they did. I was just happy that one usually skirt and top or pants and top of the shoes wasn’t the tan one. How important is it to you to look good? Very impor- What’s one item in your wardrobe you can’t live without? My fa- tant. If I am confident about my appearance, I am vorite wardrobe item is a blue and silver lapel pin of Winston more confident overall, and with confidence, great Churchill that I bought in London. Whenever I wear it, I think things can happen. of Churchill, whom I admire, and of London, which is my fa- vorite city. Also, because I tend to dress in neutral-colored, Do you ever stress about what you’re going to wear? conservative clothing, I like loud . If they also have Every single day unusual designs or pictures of animals on them, even better. Do you like to shop for clothing? Doesn’t everyone? What’s one wardrobe item you probably should do away with? I still What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve ever com- occasionally wear a pair of tan and brown saddle shoes that I mitted? High heels/wedges with and a big bought when I was 16. I have been waiting for 38 years for top. In the old days it conjured up the image of Car- them to come back in style — and am still waiting. I love them ol Burnett at the Laundromat snapping her gum. so much that it’s worth the abuse I get when I wear them. Today it is couture. Do you pay attention to the way other lawyers are dressed? Not What’s one item in your wardrobe you can’t live with- really, although I always notice when someone looks nice. out? High wedge/heeled shoes When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make a difference? I What’s one wardrobe item you probably should do think so. It probably sounds stupid, but I actually feel smarter away with? High wedge/heeled shoes when I’m wearing a suit as opposed to something more ca- Do you pay attention to the way other lawyers are sual. I always feel more lawyerly when I’m dressed up. dressed? Not unless it is fabulous or horrendous As a whole, how well does the legal profession dress? Most When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make a differ- lawyers whom I interact with dress casually, as I do. How- ence? I think so. It’s human nature that initial impres- ever, my bother, Jerold Paquette, who is a sole practitioner sions carry weight, whether with a juror or a in Gardner, wears a suit and tie and wingtip shoes every prospective client. day to work. He just looks like a lawyer. If you were going to As a whole, how well does the legal profession dress? cast someone in a movie to play a lawyer, you would cast Men have far less of a choice than women. But I my brother. If you showed someone his picture and asked think, as a whole, lawyers don’t take a lot of risks them to guess what his profession is, nine out of 10 people because we are always on display. would guess “lawyer.” Dress to Impress May 12, 2008 | Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly | 35

Christine M. McEvoy M

Area of practice: Superior Court judge Dress code: Judicial What’s your usual “uniform” for work? Suit (skirt/pants) or with skirt or pants, and judicial robe How important is it to you to look good? Very Do you ever stress about what you’re going to wear? Not often Do you like to shop for clothing? Yes What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve ever committed? Too tight clothes What’s one item in your wardrobe you can’t live without? Black skirt What’s one wardrobe item you probably should do away with? Knit skirt Do you pay attention to the way other lawyers are dressed? Yes When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make a difference? Yes As a whole, how well does the legal profes- sion dress? Very well

Tracy D. Skahan M DAVID SPINK M

Age: 32 Ingrid C. Schroffner Area of practice: Executive administrator Age: 37 Firm: Morse, Barnes-Brown & Pendleton, Waltham; 28 lawyers Area of practice: Probate litigation Firm’s dress code: Business-casual Firm: Executive Office of Health and Human Services, Boston; 25 lawyers What’s your usual “uniform” for work? I usually wear dress pants and an appropriate top. Firm’s dress code: /business attire as appro- priate How important is it to you to look good? It is very im- portant within the culture of my firm to look profes- What’s your usual “uniform” for work? A pantsuit or slacks sional and polished. and blazer outfit Do you ever stress about what you’re going to wear? How important is it to you to look good? Very. Being put to- Absolutely. I sometimes feel that my wardrobe is gether bolsters my confidence and feeling of preparedness. very limited. Do you ever stress about what you’re going to wear? Of course, Do you like to shop for clothing? I love shopping for especially when I am about to be late and can’t find the ex- clothing. act black blazer that falls precisely the right way on a blouse/slacks combination What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve ever com- mitted? I honestly cannot think of one. I certainly Do you like to shop for clothing? If the karma and company are right have had occasions of being at work and won- What’s the biggest fashion faux pas you’ve ever committed? dering what I was thinking when I dressed that Wearing clogs to court. It was summer, and I had not antici- morning. pated needing to go into an emergency motion that day. What’s one item in your wardrobe you can’t live with- What’s one item in your wardrobe that you can’t live without? out? My black . I wear them as often as I can. Tall black shoes. Platforms have better stability, but thinner What’s one wardrobe item you probably should do heels are more elegant. away with? My jacket. I have been wearing the What’s one wardrobe item you probably should do away with? same one for 10-plus years. . I love the materials and patterns, but tend to mess Do you pay attention to the way other lawyers are with them too much when I am actually wearing them, so dressed? Sometimes. Lawyers are not my peers, but I that they become more of a distraction than an accent. do notice how staff and paralegals dress, especially if Do you pay attention to the way other lawyers are dressed? Ab- they are wearing something new or different. solutely When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make a differ- When it comes to lawyering, do clothes make a difference? I ence? Clothes always make a difference for lawyers would not go so far as to place form over substance in that and everyone else. It matters how you present way, but appearing classy, neat and well groomed generally yourself to the world. would help a presentation in most contexts. As a whole, how well does the legal profession dress? As a whole, how well does the legal profession dress? It’s a I am not sure about the legal profession as a matter of style, which is a personal choice. The fact that whole, but, overall, everyone in my firm suits are generally required for court appearances does im- appropriately. prove the standard, however. Models

Kate M. Bailey Robinson & Cole Amy Crafts Proskauer Rose Anthony M. Doniger Sugarman, Rogers, Barshak & Cohen Gregory T. Donoghue Tedeschi Food Shops Edward M. Ginsburg Senior Partners for Justice Marsha V. Kazarosian Kazarosian Law Offices Judge Christine McEvoy Superior Court Alyce T. Moore Kronos Michelle R. Peirce Donoghue, Barrett & Singal John N. Riccardi Boston University School of Law Rachael Splaine Rollins U.S. Attorney’s Office Jeffrey R. Scalzi Foley Hoag Ingrid Schroffner Executive Office of Health and Human Services Sponsored by: Tracy D. Skahan Morse, Barnes-Brown & Pendleton John L. Strand Dress to Impress Wolf, Greenfield & Sacks Charles P.Wagner Exclusive fashion show for the legal community Yarashus, Wagner Sarah L. Whipple 6.3.08 I Langham Hotel, Boston I 5:30-8 p.m. Mintz, Levin, Cohn, Ferris, Glovsky & Popeo

Designers The night Tickets Charity Hair & Makeup Sara Campbell, Boston Modeling by legal $70 pre-registered A portion of the ticket proceeds will Beaucage Salon and Day Spa, professionals go to DRESS for SUCCESS, which Boston Ports & Co., Cohasset $75 night of event provides professional attire to Trunk show disadvantaged women seeking Frank Stella, Boston $55 each for groups of 8 or more Cocktails employment. Regan Clothiers LTD, of N.E. Order online at Hors d’oeuvres http://events.lawyersweekly.com Jiwani Custom Clothiers for more info call 617.218.8132

Emcee Anqunette Jamison, FOX25 Morning News Anchor

Anqunette Jamison is the news anchor on FOX25 Morning News. She Anqunette joined FOX25 from KVBC-TV, the NBC affiliate in Las Vegas, starts her on-air day at 5 a.m. bringing early risers up-to-date and staying where she was weekend anchor and general assignment reporter. Prior to on top of developing news stories. Anqunette joins FOX25 Morning News KVBC-TV, Jamison spent four years in “Notre Dame” country where she was co-hosts Gene Lavanchy and Kim Carrigan each weekday morning from 5 a general assignment reporter at WNDU, the NBC affiliate in South Bend, – 9 a.m. Ind. Her first job in broadcasting took her to the cornfields and farms of rural Anqunette helped launched FOX25 Morning News in 2003 and loves Indiana near West Lafayette. While there, she produced the early morning being part of the unpredictable format. While anchoring requires her to write newscasts and reported on stories ranging from Purdue University football to and deliver mostly hard news stories, she enjoys going head-to-head with local and state political issues. VB, Gene and Kim in the show’s ‘Let It Rip’ segments. Anqunette was born and raised in Gary, Ind. She’s a graduate of Butler University in Indianapolis with a degree in radio-television and journalism.

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