CANADA

1st SESSION  36th PARLIAMENT  VOLUME 137  NUMBER 73

OFFICIAL REPORT (HANSARD)

Monday, June 15, 1998

THE HONOURABLE GILDAS L. MOLGAT SPEAKER CONTENTS

(Daily index of proceedings appears at back of this issue.)

Debates: Victoria Building, Room 407, Tel. 996-0397 Published by the Senate Available from Canada Communication Group — Publishing, Public Works and Government Services Canada, Ottawa K1A 0S9, at $1.75 per copy or $158 per year. Also available on the Internet: http://www.parl.gc.ca 1750

THE SENATE

Monday, June 15, 1998

The Senate met at 7:30 p.m., the Speaker in the Chair. 1867, in the presence of the Clerk of the Senate, the Commissioner appointed to receive and witness the said Prayers. declaration.

 (2000) NEW SENATORS Hon. B. Alasdair Graham (Leader of the Government): The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, I have the Honourable senators, according to the ancient Chinese proverb, honour to inform the Senate that the Clerk has received “A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step,” certificates from the Registrar General of Canada showing that fifty years ago, the first step in the journey toward a freer, fairer the following persons, respectively, have been summoned to the world was taken when the General Assembly of the United Senate: Nations adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In so doing, the international conscience of man entered the early The Very Reverend Dr. Lois M. Wilson dawn of freedom. Francis William Mahovlich Calvin Woodrow Ruck Senator Lois Wilson has spent her life understanding that there Richard H. Kroft are no shortcuts to a more peaceful and more tolerant world. She Marian Maloney has believed always, as someone once said, that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. INTRODUCTION As an author, minister and internationally known authority on The Hon. the Speaker having informed the Senate that there human rights issues, she would know better than most that the were senators without, waiting to be introduced: long journey of growth of freedom and respect for human rights in our time, in the political as well as the social and economic The following honourable senators were introduced; presented meaning of rights, is rather like watching an aircraft carrier Her Majesty’s writs of summons; took the oath prescribed by turning. It is the few degrees of tilt to port or to starboard which law, which was administered by the Clerk; and were seated: frustrate so many throughout the international community. Hon. The Very Reverend Dr. Lois M. Wilson, of Toronto, It has not been the sweeping, 180-degree turns which have led Ontario, introduced between Hon. B. Alasdair Graham, P.C., and to the growing emergence of internationally shared norms on Hon. Landon Pearson. questions of human rights and democratic freedoms in our time. Rather, it is the constant few degrees of tilt to port or starboard Hon. Francis William Mahovlich, of Toronto, Ontario, engineered by the commitment, the determination and the introduced between Hon. B. Alasdair Graham, P.C., and courage of brilliant internationalists like The Very Reverend Hon. John Bryden. Dr. Wilson which have strengthened the conscience of mankind, whether it has been through her work with Amnesty International Hon. Calvin Woodrow Ruck, of Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, or with the Canadian Institute for International Peace and introduced between Hon. B. Alasdair Graham, P.C., and Security, or latterly, as the chair of the board of the International Hon. Mary Butts. Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development. Hon. Richard H. Kroft, of Winnipeg, Manitoba, Whether it has been her service as a United Church minister, introduced between Hon. B. Alasdair Graham, P.C., and as the first Canadian president of the World Council of Churches, Hon. Sharon Carstairs. or in her current positions as Chancellor of Lakehead University and Vice-President of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, Hon. Marian Maloney, of Etobicoke, Ontario, Senator Wilson has worked passionately for a new law on earth; introduced between Hon. B. Alasdair Graham, P.C., and a new law whereby the true test of civilization, the acid test of Hon. Lucie Pépin. civilized nations and societies, is how they treat the poor and illiterate, how they treat those who are hungry and those who are The Hon. the Speaker informed the Senate that each of the persecuted by repressive governments, how they treat women honourable senators named above had made and subscribed the and minorities, how they treat the most defenceless among us, declaration of qualification required by the Constitution Act, the tiny babies and the little children of the planet. June 15, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1751

The children of the world do not understand globalization, local bogs and ponds. Incidentally, Sister Peggy has a command computers, trade pacts and gross domestic product. However, of the stats which is probably unbeatable in this chamber. they are born among us and raised among us with rights; rights to shelter and good health care, rights to nourishment and For so many of us here tonight, and for Canadians from coast protection, rights to societies which respect them and love them, to coast, the sound of the first slap shot, the first puck hitting the rights to the promise of a better world. These are rights which a boards, was and is the first shock of psychic electricity that unites Pearson Prize winner would understand; these are rights which hearts and minds in this country irrespective of regions and time the winner of the World Federalist Peace Award would zones or ethnic backgrounds, because if there ever was a visible, understand; these are rights which an Officer of the Order of passionate and inspirational testimony of our magnificent Canada would understand; but more than anything, these are multiculturalism, it was and is hockey. rights which a mother of four and a grandmother of 12 would understand, because she will understand them with the heart.  (2010) Tonight, we welcome Senator Lois Wilson to our midst. If there ever was an inspirational and visible ambassador for Wherever she has travelled, she has become a symbol of hope the game, and a model for our youth, it was the great left-winger, where hope has often been forgotten. By her very presence, she Frank Mahovlich — a man of power and grace with a trademark has signified a glimpse of what is possible to poor and frightened skating style whose blades flashed brilliantly on the ice, a hockey people, both here in Canada and around the world. legend who has learned all there is to learn about endurance, courage, pain and about humility being part of the elation that Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! comes with winning. I do not know of anyone who has given as much time to Senator Graham: Honourable senators, one of Canada’s Canadian kids as “The Big M.” When you watch him at work all-time great runners, Bruce Kidd, once said that the rink is a with them, as I was able to do at a Tim Horton event in Nova symbol of the country’s vast stretches of water and wilderness, its extremes of climate. The player, he said, is a symbol of our Scotia last year, you see the magic of a presence that gives not only tremendous motivation but belief, hope and confidence as struggle to civilize such a land. He spoke of an important truth well, along with the values, class and nobility that are all part of when he called hockey “the great Canadian metaphor.” In many the persona of one of Canada’s finest gentleman emissaries of the ways, that great Canadian metaphor is personified in the legendary figure of Senator Frank Mahovlich; Calder Trophy sport. winner and one of hockey’s true superstars who played on Frank, you are a symbol of national pride, courage and the six Stanley Cup winning teams — four for the Toronto pursuit of excellence. Your presence here tonight represents a Maple Leafs and two with the Montreal Canadiens. country united. You strengthen the conviction in all of us that the bonds that bring Canadians together are much stronger than those Honourable senators will know and understand the pure that keep us apart. delight that I personally have in welcoming “The Big M,” a greatly honoured figure in the Hall of Fame, to this chamber. All Senator Mahovlich, we welcome you most sincerely to this of my life I have loved this game and to this day I continue to chamber. play on these rickety old legs. I watch it; I talk about it constantly. As a matter of fact, as a former broadcaster at the Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! Antigonish radio station CJFX, which my honourable colleague Lowell Murray will recall, I followed at a play-by-play Senator Graham: Honourable senators, when we all reflected microphone in the steps of our friend and fellow Xavierian, the this past April 4 on the thirtieth anniversary of the assassination late Danny Gallivan, whose legendary voice would become of Dr. Martin Luther King, some of us may have remembered the synonymous with the poetry in motion which was the Montreal beautiful words of the speech he gave in Memphis the day before Canadiens. his tragic death. He said: As many of you know, the rink, our great Canadian metaphor, I just want to do God’s will. And He’s allowed me to go up has a central place in the lives of Cape Bretoners; families such to the mountain. And I’ve looked over and I’ve seen the as my own where the game is played and replayed. That is promised land. So I’m happy tonight. something, Frank, that your bother Peter, who is in the gallery tonight and who coached the Cape Breton Oilers, would The man who had a dream that his children would one day live understand as well as anyone. in a nation where they would not be judged by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character died the following day. Frank Mahovlich scored 626 goals and was selected to nine However, his dream lived on. It lived on in all those people all-star teams, tying the record for most playoff points in 1971. whose lives were shaped and guided by it, in all those people None of this is news to the many hockey fans seated in this who believed that the challenges, the injustices and the inequities chamber, particularly Senator Peggy Butts from Bridgeport, of life could always be beaten by the indomitable power of the Glace Bay, who grew up with me playing the game herself on the human heart, of the human spirit. 1752 SENATE DEBATES June 15, 1998

Senator Calvin Woodrow Ruck spent his life guided by that lifestyles based on determination, self-reliance and enterprise, a dream, guided by the content of his character. Cal grew up in my career which has led to many successful business endeavours in part of the world, in Sydney, Nova Scotia, and was raised in the finance, grains, metals and investments, as well as environmental spirit of self-help and community cooperation which was always controls and protection. so much a part of the Cape Breton psyche. In all these endeavours, as well as his service as an executive He knew that the people together make giants, as our own committee member with the recently formed Business Council of Father Jimmy Tompkins once said. He knew that you only had to Manitoba, he has contributed greatly to his home city at the give them ideas and they would blow the roof off together. geographic centre of our nation. In all the years he worked as a labourer and a porter with the Senator Kroft, all of us here tonight are assembled in this, the CNR and as a cleaner at CFB Shearwater, he kept his heart and workshop of government, to make a difference. We are charged mind focused squarely on the promised land of freedom. All here with grave and onerous duties which require devotion, through his later efforts at community development and the years courage and great energy, along with service to others. We know spent as a social worker, and as a human rights officer who we must never tire in the search for the facts or in the search for played a key role in desegregation of public accommodation with the truth. We must never tire in the search for what is right, the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission, Cal looked with the because we in this chamber are the custodians of the basic heart. freedoms of Canadians. We are the guardians at the gate. Later, he would give freely of his time to the Black Cultural Senator Kroft, you have received the Order of Canada because Centre of Nova Scotia, the North Preston Day Care Board and you have understood that to those of whom much has been given, the Nova Scotia Association for the Advancement of Coloured much is expected in return. As a citizen of the gateway to the People. In all this, he distinguished himself from those who had Prairies, you are part of a tradition of social reform. You are a sight but no vision. He distinguished himself from those who citizen of a special place which has become home to waves of failed to understand that the real things in life, the real things immigrants from across the planet, and which has evolved over such as hope and compassion, tolerance and human rights, were the decades into a multicultural treasure. those which were invisible to the eye. You are part of a proud legacy wherein the meaning of real Senator Ruck has won a long list of honours in this country success is measured by what you give back to your city, to your because he has fought for a Canada in which our children and our province, and to your country. In this regard, your efforts in grandchildren will go up on to the mountain and see the support of the Jewish Foundation of Manitoba, as a member of promised land. He has fought for a country in which they all will the Executive Committee of the Pan-American Games Society, have a fair opportunity to do their very best, a country where and as a Capital Campaign Committee Member for the Royal they have the right to grow up equal, a country where children Winnipeg Ballet, all reflect the sense of caring and sharing which will not be judged by the colour of their skin but by the content is so much the Winnipeg way. of their character. No Canadian who watched the flooding of the Red River in Tonight, we welcome a man who has received the Certificate Manitoba will ever forget the sight of the thousands of of Honour from the Black Hall of Fame, the National Harry Manitobans who battled a great natural disaster with courage, Jerome Award, along with an Honorary Doctor of Law Degree patience and back-breaking efforts, Manitobans who are in so from Dalhousie University. We welcome a man who had a dream many ways a microcosm of the planet. about freedom, a courageous man who has distinguished himself from the multitude of those who have sight but no vision. We welcome you to the workshop of government, Senator Kroft, a place where we are blessed with people of unusual Senator Ruck, we are honoured to welcome you to this talents and dedication from all walks of life. It will be a great chamber. privilege to work with you in the days ahead. We know that you will carry out your responsibility in this historic chamber with Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! great care, dedication and attention to the continuing search for what is right. Senator Graham: Honourable senators, in this magnificent chamber of the regions we remember the vast reach of our Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! multicultural federation as we proceed from Atlantic Canada to the gateway to the Canadian west.  (2020) “Winnipeg is the west,” Rupert Brooks once wrote. Winnipeg Senator Graham: Honourable senators, many decades ago is, indeed, the historic city where east meets west. It is a place Nellie McClung wrote that a woman’s place in the new order is where openness of hearts and openness of minds is a way of life. to bring vision and imagination to work on life’s problems. If this In many ways, it is a mirror of the fine multicultural sweep of the courageous member of the Valiant Five was here today, she whole of Canada. would no doubt smile approvingly as Senator Marian Maloney is welcomed to this chamber. No doubt, as she looked at the Senator Richard Kroft is a native of that special place. In many 31 women senators who are members of this chamber, she would ways, he personifies the pulse of his city. He personifies think of the landmark decision in the Persons Case delivered by

[ Senator Graham ] June 15, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1753

Lord Stanley, Lord Chancellor of the Privy Council of Great wondering perhaps they might be more comfortable sitting as Britain in 1929, a decision by which women became eligible to be Independents. summoned to and become members of the Senate of Canada. Yes, I am very tempted to say something about each one of them, tonight we reflect on the Valiant Five and the messengers of the but I realize that their friends and relatives are in the galleries past, and we think of the good fight for a new order, the good fight and anxious to see them as soon as possible to end, together, a for a fair, just and equitable society that women like Marian very special day. Let me just say that on behalf of the colleagues Maloney have given so much to bring to fruition. on this side, I am pleased to join with the Leader of the Government in the Senate in welcoming our five new colleagues, Her personal success as a businesswoman and community who will soon make their mark here, although after reading their organizer has been based on some pretty timeless truths. Marian biographies and in particular their birth dates, some will has always given a little more than she had to. She is known to unfortunately not have as much time as others to do so. have always aimed a little higher than maybe even she thought possible. She has consistently tried a little harder than probably Honourable senators, our five new senators come to the Senate even she often wanted to. at a time when it is under siege as never before. While some of the criticism directed at the institution has merit, most is petty, Senator Maloney has always understood that leadership is not partisan posturing. Seldom, however, are individual senators the someone else’s concern; it has to come from all of us. object of this criticism, except for the naive notion that the Self-reliance is not someone else’s concern; it has to come from greater one’s attendance in the chamber, the more assiduous one all of us. Generosity is not someone else’s concern; it has to becomes. Even its severest critics must recognize that the Senate come from all of us. She has always understood our collective of Canada is made up of individuals whose backgrounds and loss as a nation when citizens say too often and too easily: What experience are unequaled by any elected legislature in Canada, is in it for me? beginning with the other place. Such is the value of the appointment process, and the talents and abilities which the When the amalgamation of Fort William and Port Arthur took newest members are bringing to the Senate reconfirm that value. place, Marian worked tirelessly as chair of the 1970 celebration. I wish them well as they assume their new responsibilities. When the St. Joseph’s Hospital Auxiliary and the Thunder Bay Big Brothers needed her, Marian always gave a little more than Hon. Gerry St. Germain: Honourable senators, I rise as well she had to. When the Toronto Chapter of the Canadian Kidney to welcome the five new senators to this place, but I should like Association needed her, she did not ask, “What is in it for me?” to make a special mention tonight and welcome Senator She spent more time than even she may have thought possible. Mahovlich to a new arena. There are no bodychecks here, but When the chronic care hospital in Runnymede needed her, she there will be some verbal checks, I am sure, back and forth. went beyond her fingertips to make a difference, believing Honourable senators, I have worked with Frank, his brother always that the real meaning of success is to know, as someone Peter and others in the NHL Oldtimers Association in raising once said, that even one life has breathed easier because you funds for the less privileged in Canada. Senator Graham have lived. mentioned some of the work that Senator Mahovlich, others in the NHL and former NHLers do for the youth of Canada, and the Marian, you have worked all your life for a new order, and in work is remarkable. We hold an annual golf tournament in so doing you have brought vision and imagination to work on British Columbia with the NHL Oldtimers Association with the many of life’s problems. In supporting the causes of so many names of Keith McCreary, Eddie Shack, the Hull brothers and worthy women candidates in political life, women who have Andy Bathgate, to mention a few. Peter, of course, is always struggled against the current, you have helped bring new levels there with us, along with Frank, and they make a difference for of understanding, new levels of compassion and fairness to the charities in British Columbia. political life in this country. These are women who will never be shy to get the job done, who will fight the good fight, and if they Senator Mahovlich, I wish you could have been a right winger do not like it, as Nellie once said, they will give them hell. because we have a seat open over here on the right wing. However, being that you are a left winger, you ended up over In the spirit of the Valiant Five and the good fight of 1929, we there. I can appreciate that fact. I think what is really important is welcome you, Senator Maloney, to the Senate of Canada. that you are here and that you have been chosen to be here with us to make your contribution. I am asking you to continue to Indeed we extend the warmest of welcome to all the new make your contributions as you have in the past, which I am sure senators who have joined us in this chamber tonight. you will do. I am looking forward to seeing you on July 23 at the Northview Golf and Country Club in British Columbia, along Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! with Peter and other committed volunteers. Hon. John Lynch-Staunton (Leader of the Opposition): I wish to thank honourable senators for giving me the Honourable senators, I must say this is a first for the Senate. Here opportunity to mention this great charity in British Columbia, but we have five new colleagues, not one of whom has been extolled most of all to welcome the five senators here this evening, for any partisan activity, particularly with the Liberal Party. I was especially the one I know, Senator Mahovlich. 1754 SENATE DEBATES June 15, 1998

Hon. Mira Spivak: Honourable senators, I, too, wish to You can try in the House of Commons, as Senator Maloney has welcome all of the new senators to this chamber, but I have a tried over the years, but here we have the option and, when there particular welcome for the distinguished representative from is a vacancy, he should continue his great effort. Manitoba. I certainly approve of the Prime Minister’s choice. For those of us from Manitoba, we can relax a little because some of I see in the gallery, for instance, Judy Erola. Would she not be the burden of responsibility will be shifted on to the capable marvelous in the Senate? I see Monique Bégin. Would it not be shoulders of the Honourable Senator Richard Kroft. I know that extraordinary to have these fighters in the Senate chamber? he will be a credit to his province, to the Senate, and to his While Canada is under attack, these people could help us to help country. I extend my congratulations to his wonderful family, all Canadians understand the importance of this country. who are all here this evening. Senator Kroft I knew in the Young Liberals. He looks much Welcome, Richard. younger than I do, but I think we are of the same age. I knew him to be very active in Manitoba and that goes back a long time. [Translation] Welcome, Senator Kroft, Senator Wilson, Senator Ruck, Hon. Marcel Prud’homme: Honourable senators, I would Senator Maloney and Senator Mahovlich. If you ever change like people to know that there are Independent senators. I wish your mind, it takes only two to change the Senate, a proposer and the five new senators a very warm welcome. I knew all five of a seconder. There is plenty of room in the Independent quarters. them before their appointment, two of them very well. Senator Wilson, I can see you and I wave to you. I would hope to sit closer to you eventually. What I cannot understand is why Mrs. Wilson has been seated at the far end of the chamber. Whether it is the far right or the far I am pleased to join with all others to welcome you all very left, I do not know, but I would like to tell her that I do not warmly to the Senate chamber. represent the far right. Quite the contrary. I am familiar with her long career. I know that she and I could see eye to eye about the Hon. John Buchanan: Honourable senators, I, too, would reforms needed to correct all of Canada’s social problems. After welcome the new senators. I have known Senator Lois Wilson all, her role as president of the World Council of Churches makes for many years. I had the great privilege, as premier of Nova her a leader in social justice. Scotia, to induct her as a member of the oldest social club in North America when she was moderator of the United Church. I am delighted at Mrs. Maloney’s appointment to the Senate The Order of the Good Time, l’Ordre du bon temps was founded or, as the Vatican would say, her creation as a senator. in 1606. I will not go into the four questions that I asked her many years ago. [English] I also welcome Senator Frank Mahovlich, on behalf of myself  (2030) but primarily on behalf of my sister who, over the years, has been I have regretted very much the bias of some younger your biggest fan. She told me to give you a kiss from her. I will journalists. I usually do not criticize them, but they should have not do that but I will blow the kiss to you. known at least the identity of Ms Maloney. I noticed her as a Young Liberal and as a young member of the House, I noticed Specifically, I want to welcome a fellow Cape Bretoner who, her, and since I have been in the Senate, I have noticed her like myself, was born in Sydney: Dr. Calvin Ruck. I have known extraordinary, avant-garde promotion of women in politics. If she Senator Ruck for many years. He is a member of a Cape Breton does not deserve a Senate seat, I do not know who does, family which can claim adherence to a quality few can claim in politically liberal or otherwise. service to people. Calvin Ruck is a total and true manifestation of that quality. From a hard-working young man to an adult This chamber is a place where everyone should be represented. community-worker, he worked his way up to becoming one of In that sense, I welcome this great senator, Senator Mahovlich. the top social workers in Nova Scotia. He is a very distinguished He will be a real senator because, in Ottawa, we are not too lucky Nova Scotian. During my years as premier of that great province, with our other Senators. Perhaps you can teach them a good he was always available to work with people through the Human lesson. Rights Commission, the black community, the black cultural centre — he was present at its opening — and in many other I welcome, too, this great fighter for black rights, organizations. Senator Ruck. His brother, Winston, who is known to Cape Bretoners in this There are still two seats vacant in this chamber. Perhaps there place, was certainly a friend of Cape Breton and, in my opinion, will be more vacancies over the summer. I still entreat the Prime one of the finest presidents that the United Steel Workers of Minister to follow the advice that I have given him in private, America had over the years. He was very distinguished. and which is now public, that he should use his prerogative to move towards the goal of more equality in the Senate, especially Dr. Cal, I welcome you on behalf of all Nova Scotians. You for women. I believe in it. I always believed in it in the House of are known from Victoria County to Yarmouth County. You, sir, Commons when I was a Young Liberal. I believe in it on behalf will make a very positive contribution to this Senate. You are one of my sister and my family. I believe in total equality. Here, as I of God’s good gentlemen. say often, we have the option. The Prime Minister has the option. June 15, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1755

SENATORS’ STATEMENTS Safety Board Act, and acquainting the Senate that they had passed this bill with the following amendments, to which they desire the THE SENATE concurrence of the Senate:

REFLECTIONS ON VARIOUS PARTY LEADERS 1. Page 9, clause 17: Strike out lines 5 and 6 and substitute the following: Hon. Philippe Deane Gigantès: Honourable senators, as I am about to leave this place, I would like to take a moment to speak “(i) the flight deck of an aircraft” about the leaders on both sides of this chamber. I had the privilege of serving under Senator MacEachen, 2. Page 9, clause 17: Strike out lines 16 and 17 and whom some of you perhaps found difficult. That was his job. He substitute the following: was a master of parliamentary procedure, of tactics, and a man of great wisdom who has given much to Canada’s vaunted social “ing personnel, on the flight deck of the aircraft, on” programs. On motion of Senator Carstairs, message placed on Orders of His assistant, Senator Frith, in a moment of mad passion, the Day for consideration at the next sitting. turned us all into young D’Artagnans, and we went into our wild follies which you on the opposite side did not appreciate, but [English] which I personally enjoyed. Afterwards, there was civility to restore to this chamber, and Senator Fairbairn did that with the able assistance first of Senator Molgat and then of Senator THE ESTIMATES, 1998-99 Graham. REPORT OF NATIONAL FINANCE COMMITTEE ON SUPPLEMENTARY Now I have Senator Graham, who is immensely kind to me ESTIMATES (A) PRESENTED AND PRINTED AS APPENDIX and very patient, and Senator Carstairs whom I much admire and Hon. Terry Stratton: Honourable senators, I have the honour love. to present the fifth report of the Standing Senate Committee on I would like also to speak of the leaders opposite. I always National Finance, which deals with Supplementary enjoyed and respected Senator Doody, a great gentleman. I have Estimates (A), 1998-99. enjoyed my relationship with Senator Berntson; I have enjoyed (For text of report, see today’s Journals of the Senate, the two excellent leaders opposite, whom I have had to face. If, Appendix, p. 832.) sometimes, I have appeared to jab at them a little too much, I would like to attribute that to my father, who said, “If you want The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this to learn to box, get in the ring and jab at champions.” report be taken into consideration? On motion of Senator Carstairs, report placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting of the Senate. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS BUDGET IMPLEMENTATION BILL, 1998 A BILL TO CHANGE THE NAME OF CERTAIN ELECTORAL DISTRICTS REPORT OF COMMITTEE Hon. Terry Stratton, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS on National Finance, presented the following report: The Hon. the Speaker informed the Senate that a message Monday, June 15, 1998 had been received from the House of Commons returning Bill C-410, to change the names of certain electoral districts, and The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance has acquainting the Senate that they have agreed to the amendments the honour to present its made by the Senate to this bill without further amendment. SIXTH REPORT [Translation] Your Committee, to which was referred Bill C-36, An Act CANADIAN TRANSPORTATION ACCIDENT to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in INVESTIGATION AND SAFETY BOARD ACT Parliament on February 24, 1998, has, in obedience to the Order of Reference of Monday, June 8, 1998, examined the BILL TO AMEND—AMENDMENTS FROM COMMONS said Bill and now reports the same without amendment. Respectfully submitted, The Hon. the Speaker informed the Senate that a message had been received from the House of Commons returning Bill S-2, to TERRANCE R. STRATTON amend the Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Chair 1756 SENATE DEBATES June 15, 1998

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this QUESTION PERIOD bill be read the third time? ATOMIC ENERGY OF CANADA On motion of Senator Carstairs, bill placed on the Orders of the Day for third reading at the next sitting of the Senate. AID AND INFORMATION SUPPLIED TO PURCHASERS OF CANDU REACTORS—DIFFERENCE OF OPINION ON FINANCIAL RISKS—GOVERNMENT POSITION NATIONAL PARKS ACT Hon. Mira Spivak: Honourable senators, last week I questioned the Leader of the Government in the Senate about the BILL TO AMEND—FIRST READING government’s diligence in signing this country’s largest loan guarantee ever to finance the sale of CANDU reactors to China, The Hon. the Speaker informed the Senate that a message without an environmental assessment or the oversight necessary has been received from the House of Commons with Bill C-38, for federally financed projects. That question was premised on to amend the National Parks Act. reports of a sworn statement by a senior Finance Department official that the department had neither seen nor reviewed the Bill read first time. loan guarantee. Since then, more court documents and more internal memos have come to light showing that, five months The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this before the deal was signed, the EDC president wrote to the bill be read the second time? Deputy Minister of Finance, saying their officials had been working together on the text of the loan guarantee for months, and that eight months before the signing, Department of Finance On motion of Senator Carstairs, bill placed on the Orders of officials were warning about the deal’s major financial risks. the Day for second reading on Wednesday next, June 17, 1998. Can the Leader of the Government in the Senate clarify the seeming contradiction between the sworn statement of SOCIAL AFFAIRS, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY Mr. Cameron of the Department of Finance, which claimed no departmental involvement, and that of Mr. Giles of the Export Development Corporation, who disputed that claim? NOTICES OF MOTION TO AUTHORIZE COMMITTEE TO STUDY DIMENSIONS OF SOCIAL COHESION IN CANADA Hon. B. Alasdair Graham (Leader of the Government): Honourable senators, the government does receive thorough Hon. Lowell Murray: Honourable senators, I give notice that analysis and what is considered to be objective advice from the on Tuesday next, June 16, 1998, I will move: Export Development Corporation.

That the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, With its responsibilities as required under the Export Development Act in considering CANDU project proposals, the Science and Technology be authorized to examine and ministers responsible rely upon the financial risk analysis and report upon the dimensions of social cohesion in Canada in assessment provided by EDC and the contract expertise of the the context of globalization and other economic and exporter, AECL. That was the case with the sale to China and structural forces that influence trust and reciprocity among also with the bid for Turkey. Canadians. Senator Spivak: Both AECL and the federal government have That the committee present its report no later than refused to disclose the key features of this $1.5-billion loan June 30, 1999. guarantee to China, including the interest rates, the repayment schedule, the default penalties, the exchange rate risks, the government costs to cover the loan, and the projected profit margin. CANADA-UNITED STATES INTER-PARLIAMENTARY GROUP  (2050) Can we be assured that, in the deal with Turkey, we will be THIRTY-NINTH ANNUAL MEETING—NOTICE OF INQUIRY informed of the finance department’s review of the $1.5-billion loan guarantee for the proposed sale to Turkey? Hon. Jerahmiel S. Grafstein: Honourable senators, I give notice that on Wednesday next, June 17, 1998, I will call the Senator Graham: Honourable senators, neither ministers nor attention of the Senate to the thirty-ninth annual meeting of the departments exercise direct control over the Export Development Canada-United States Inter-Parliamentary Group held in Corporation’s commercial operations or the specifics of the Nantucket in May, 1998. contracts. If the information is available with respect to the proposed sale to Turkey, I certainly will bring it forward. June 15, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1757

Hon A. Raynell Andreychuk: I had previously asked the Senator Graham: With respect to the by-laws and Leader of the Government in the Senate if the government would information being provided to the provinces and the public, that impose a moratorium on any further sales of CANDU reactors. is ceretainly the case as it applies to the CPP Investment Board. In light of the evidence coming out on the China deal, the question is: Who is in charge? Is it the government? Is it the Senator Tkachuk: Bill C-36, among other things, establishes Prime Minister? Is it Atomic Energy of Canada Limited? Is it the the Millennium Scholarship Foundation. During our study of that EDC? There seems to be more confusion and more risk than on bill, the minister admitted that there was a problem with certain any other deal, with $2.5 billion of Canadian taxpayers’ money, proposed provisions to the Old Age Security Act. However, he in American funds, at stake. undertook to fix those problems in the fall if we would pass the bill now. Is it possible that he will also undertake to fix this part Could we have some assurance that there will be a moratorium of the act in the fall? until the issues of safety, security, and exposure for the Canadian taxpayers is identified and monitored appropriately? Would the Leader of the Government in the Senate ask the minister to clarify whether this was a legislative mistake on the Senator Graham: Quite obviously, the matter is under review. part of those who drafted the bill, or whether there was a As I mentioned, the Minister of International Trade and the deliberate reason for them not making those by-laws public? Minister of Finance review such projects as part of their respective responsibilities vis-à-vis the Export Development Senator Graham: I am sure that question was raised at the Corporation. Neither ministers, nor departments, exercise direct committee hearing this morning, but I will bring my honourable control, but the matter is certainly under constant review. friend’s representations to the attention of the Minister of Finance tomorrow morning. Senator Lynch-Staunton: Who named Robert Nixon? Was it Senator Tkachuk: I have one more question, the answer to the Chinese? which might go some way to explaining why these by-laws are not made public. Some Hon. Senators: Shame, shame! Members of our committee debated whether we should put forward amendments which would establish an investment POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION committee. That suggestion was rejected by the minister in committee today. My concern was that, perhaps, the by-laws MILLENIUM SCHOLARSHIP FOUNDATION—COMPARISON OF would not be made public because they might disclose some ACCOUNTABILITY WITH CANADA PENSION PLAN INVESTMENT information about how the government will fund the $2.5 billion BOARD—DISCLOSURE OF BY-LAWS—GOVERNMENT POSITION that is necessary to establish the Millennium Scholarship Foundation, and if that was the reason to contain any further Hon. David Tkachuk: Honourable senators, on Tuesday last, questioning by members of Parliament and members of this officials of the Department of Finance confirmed that the institution. Millennium Scholarship Foundation will be under no legal obligation to make public its organizational by-laws, and Senator Graham: I would be very surprised if the by-laws members of the Senate National Finance Committee were told were not made public. that this is because it is not appropriate to require an arm’s length organization to release such information. Yet, section 28 of the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board specifically requires that SOLICITOR GENERAL any by-law passed by the CPP Investment Board both be provided to the provinces and made available to the public. Both INVESTIGATION BY RCMP OF RELEASE the foundation and the CPP board are supposedly arm’s length OF PRIVATE RECORDS TO PRESS—GOVERNMENT POSITION organizations. Why is it appropriate to require the CPP Hon. Noël A. Kinsella (Acting Deputy Leader of the Investment Board to release its by-laws while exempting the Opposition): Honourable senators, I have a question for the foundation? Leader of the Government in the Senate. A few weeks ago, when it was reported that certain papers were leaked from the Privy Hon. B. Alasdair Graham (Leader of the Government): It Council Office, the government undertook to have the RCMP is a very good question and I know that the Minister of Finance inquire into that matter. Today, in New Brunswick newspapers, appeared before the committee this morning and addressed the personal health records of Ms Dickey, former member of the several questions with respect to the arm’s length position of the Canadian Armed Forces, were published. Will the government millennium scolarship fund administration. I am sure that undertake to have the RCMP investigate such a leak, or is there a honourable senators received their answers at that particular double standard? time. Hon. B. Alasdair Graham (Leader of the Government): Senator Lynch-Staunton: No, we did not. There is no double standard. As I said on one other occasion, such practices are “repugnant,” “despicable.” The matter is under Senator Tkachuk: We did not. very serious investigation. 1758 SENATE DEBATES June 15, 1998

Senator Berntson: By whom? Fitzpatrick, for the third reading of Bill C-6, to provide for an integrated system of land and water management in the Senator Lynch-Staunton: By the RCMP. Mackenzie Valley, to establish certain boards for that Senator Berntson: Who is investigating? purpose and to make consequential amendments to other Acts. Senator Graham: I had hoped that the news media would respect the privacy of the individual concerned. Hon. Noël A. Kinsella (Acting Deputy Leader of the Opposition): Honourable senators, we are at third reading debate Senator Kinsella: As a supplementary question to the on Bill C-6, and last Thursday, when we last met in this chamber, minister: Will the Government of Canada ask the RCMP to we were heavy into that debate with speakers on both sides of the investigate this matter? chamber speaking to the bill on third reading.

Senator Graham: I will raise that matter with the responsible Honourable senators, like many of you, I did not participate in authorities tomorrow morning. the proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples where we adopted the bill in principle. That committee INDIAN AFFAIRS AND NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT then reported the bill and we proceeded to debate on third reading. REQUEST OF DENE NATION FOR APPOINTMENT OF INDEPENDENT BOUNDARY COMMISSION TO REVIEW WESTERN Honourable senators, during that debate, certain information BOUNDARY OF NUNAVUT—GOVERNMENT POSITION was brought forward by the honourable senators who participated in the debate which, quite frankly, many of us found somewhat Hon. Mira Spivak: Honourable senators, Bill C-39 has been disturbing. For example, turning to the Debates of the Senate for passed but the Dene leaders in Manitoba do have some problem. June 11, at page 1736, one honourable senator makes the The borders of Nunavut, as they are drawn today, include the following statement: Dene homeland. Essentially, the Manitoba Dene want first, a Supreme Court reference to resolve the question of judicial land  (2100) use and second, the appointment of an independent boundary commission to review revisions to the western boundary of ...we asked the minister of Indian and Northern Affairs to Nunavut. appear before the Aboriginal Peoples Committee to discover, first, why the bill was drafted as it was, and, My question for the government leader in the Senate is, second, to discover if indeed some compromise was knowing that Bill C-39 has been passed, what other remedy is possible to satisfy the aboriginal peoples who object to the available now to these people of Northern Manitoba? bill.

Hon. B. Alasdair Graham (Leader of the Government): I Quite frankly, not having participated beyond the debate at will bring the matter to the attention of the minister concerned to second reading, I, like many other honourable senators, was determine whether or not an appropriate remedy can be found. surprised to hear of this situation. I inquired as to whether the minister had received, in good time, an invitation to appear before one of the standing Senate committees to defend a bill of which the given minister was the proponent. The answer I ORDERS OF THE DAY received was that the minister met with some of the members of the committee. The response from the minister was, “I’m too QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE busy, but I will send you a letter explaining my views. I will meet privately with Liberal members of the committee.” ORDER STANDS Honourable senators, this is not intended in any way to judge The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators when last we members of the Senate who support the government, for I know met a question of privilege was raised by Senator Cools. I will be many of them, when they sat on this side, would have been prepared to rule tomorrow. equally as shocked had we, when sitting on that side, met with a minister without them, offering to tell them what the minister had MACKENZIE VALLEY told us. RESOURCE MANAGEMENT BILL Honourable senators, that is simply not acceptable. This house THIRD READING—MOTION IN AMENDMENT— cannot accept that as a principle. It is now on the record of the DEBATE ADJOURNED proceedings of the committee. First, the honourable members in the other place must recognize that the Canadian Parliament is On the Order: composed of three parts: the House of Commons with 301 members elected directly by the people; the Senate of Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Canada, which is a house of review, appointed as we are through Senator Forest, seconded by the Honourable Senator the process provided by the Constitution of Canada; and the June 15, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1759

Crown. Until such time as the Constitution is amended, the We hope, of course, that the minister will appear before the Parliament of Canada will continue to be made up of three parts, Committee of the Whole in order that we might resolve this the Senate being one of the three parts, and there is an obligation matter, once and for all. upon all honourable senators to examine legislation in a logical, The Hon. the Speaker: Is it your pleasure, honourable thoughtful, careful and responsible manner. I know that that is senators, to adopt the motion? what all honourable members undertake to do. On motion of Senator Carstairs, debate adjourned. A few moments ago, we listened as our new colleagues swore their oath. Intrinsic to that undertaking is our commitment to [Translation] examine legislation in substance and form and to pass judgment. If a minister of the Crown says that he or she is too busy to INCOME TAX AMENDMENTS BILL, 1997 appear before a standing committee of the Senate of Canada, then that minister is too busy to be in the cabinet or to be THIRD READING—ORDER STANDS advancing serious government legislation. This chamber cannot allow itself to be undermined by the failure of a minister to Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Deputy Leader of the Government) appear before one of our standing committees, which are an moved that Bill C-28, to amend the Income Tax Act, the Income extension of the entire chamber. That is why we have standing Tax Application Rules, the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act, the committees. Canada Pension Plan, the Children’s Special Allowances Act, the Companies’ Creditors Arrangement Act, the Cultural Property Honourable senators, I listened to the debate and I know there Export and Import Act, the Customs Act, the Customs Tariff, the were some problems with the bill. In most bills that we examine, Employment Insurance Act, the Excise Tax Act, the there are substantive issues on which there may be room for Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act, the Income Tax compromise. That is what the parliamentary process is about. Conventions Interpretation Act, the Old Age Security Act, the However, there are certain issues of form and process that make Tax Court of Canada Act, the Tax Rebate Discounting Act, the our system work. The other day we had the opportunity to Unemployment Insurance Act, the Western Grain Transition observe that our system in Canada for the last 131 years has not Payments Act and certain acts related to the Income Tax Act, be done too badly. read the third time. Honourable senators, in order to get out of the difficult Hon. Jean-Maurice Simard: Honourable senators, I intend to situation in which we have been placed, it seems to me that this speak at second reading. I can speak this evening for about a bill ought not to be read a third time at this juncture. That is not half-hour, if the honourable senators so wish, or I can defer my to say that I disagree with this bill in any way. Indeed, I remarks until tomorrow. supported the bill in principle at second reading. I heard honourable senators from both sides argue some of its On motion of Senator Simard, order stands. substantive issues. However, in our examination we must not be deprived of the minister’s evidence. This house must be privy to [English] the policy objectives to which only a minister can speak. Officials cannot speak to government policy issues. Only ministers are able to do that. APPROPRIATION BILL NO. 2, 1998-99 If the ministers do not understand our system, we should invite SECOND READING—DEBATE ADJOURNED them to attend a Political Science 1000 course during the holidays in order that they might learn that in our system it is Hon. Anne C. Cools moved the second reading of Bill C-45, ministers who have the responsibility to speak, not only in this for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public chamber but in the other place, on matters of policy. service of Canada for the financial year ending March 31, 1999.

MOTION IN AMENDMENT She said: Honourable senators, I wish to welcome Senator Mahovlich. Hon. Noël A. Kinsella (Deputy Leader of the Opposition): Honourable senators, I move: This is a new hockey game, senator. I trust that you will score as well here. I promise you that you must be very fast on your That Bill C-6, an act to provide for an integrated system feet, as opposed to your skates. of land and water management in the Mackenzie Valley, to  (2110) establish certain boards for that purpose and to make consequential amendments to other acts, be not now read a Honourable senators, when enacted, Bill C-45 will be cited as third time but that it be referred to a Committee of the the Appropriation Act No. 2, 1998-99. Bill C-45 provides for the Whole for further consideration. release of final supply for 1998-99, being $27.7 billion. 1760 SENATE DEBATES June 15, 1998

The Main Estimates, 1998-99 were tabled in the other place on [Translation] February 26, 1998 and here in the Senate on March 17. The Main Estimates for 1998-99 total $145.5 billion in planned budgetary expenditures for the fiscal year which ends March 31, 1999. This PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT, $145.5 billion includes $103 billion stemming from existing MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT RETIRING legislation and $42.4 billion in expenditures for which ALLOWANCES ACT, parliamentary authority must be granted. SALARIES ACT

BILL TO AMEND—SECOND READING—DEBATE ADJOURNED As honourable senators will recall, earlier this year we passed the interim supply bill, Bill C-34, in the amount of $14.7 billion. Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Deputy Leader of the Government) The bill before us today, Bill C-45, seeks spending authority for moved the second reading of Bill C-47, to amend the Parliament the remaining $27.7 billion. of Canada Act, the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act and the Salaries Act. Honourable senators, before and since the adoption of our interim report on March 26, our National Finance Committee has She said: Honourable senators, it is a pleasure for me to take continued to study the Main Estimates, and will continue to do so part in the debate on Bill C-47, to amend the Parliament of following adoption of Bill C-45. Canada Act, the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act and the Salaries Act. The witnesses to date who have appeared before our The bill gives effect to the recommendations of the Blais committee have included Jocelyne Bourgon, Clerk of the Privy commission on the remuneration of members of the House of Council, and Denis Desautels, Auditor General of Canada, Commons and of the Senate, which were tabled in February. among others. As I said, our committee shall continue our study of the Main Estimates, and make a final report upon completion [English] of that study. As the Blais commission report stated: As honourable senators know, control of the public purse is Services as a member of Parliament is a public service, Parliament’s primary function. It is stated at page 67 of Erskine and members should not and do not expect compensation May’s Treatise on The Law, Privileges, Proceedings and Usage of Parliament, Twenty-first Edition, that: that would amount to a financial windfall. But by the same token, no one should be required to face ...the most important power vested in any branch of the financial hardship as a result of a term of elected office. legislature, the right of imposing taxes upon the people and of voting money for the public service. Pay and benefits should therefore be realistic in terms of the actual demands on members, and should keep pace with Erskine May was speaking about the other place, the House of trends in society generally — or at least not lag behind them Commons; however, in Canada, the Senate has an important role significantly. in authorizing, along with the House of Commons, expenditure of public money. By supervising expenditures and reviewing [Translation] expenditures, we are fulfilling Parliament’s primary function. Bill C-47 was introduced and passed in the other chamber last Thursday, June 11, and tabled that same day in the Senate. The Honourable senators, since 1993, the government has bill offers a reasonable solution to a complex and difficult endeavoured to regain control of the nation’s finances. Federal problem. It is a non-partisan solution that meets the concerns government spending has been reduced to a sustainable level, expressed by both Houses of Parliament and by all parties. This and the government is projecting balanced budgets for this fiscal is a case where Parliament has agreed on a solution to a difficult year and for the following two fiscal years. These achievements problem. are reflected in the Estimates, and the government is to be congratulated on its success. I especially congratulate Prime [English] Minister Jean Chrétien and the Minister of Finance, Paul Martin. Bill C-47 contains two key provisions. First, there would be a 2-per-cent annual increase in remuneration for senators and MPs I urge all honourable senators to support the passage of starting January 1, 1998. This would apply to the sessional Bill C-45 so that the government can continue to do its work. indemnity and all other allowances. It would replace the existing cost of living adjustment, which would have been about On motion of Senator Stratton, debate adjourned. 1 per cent this year.

[ Senator Cools ] June 15, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1761

A 2-per-cent increase is modest and reasonable in the context [English] of increases in the private sector, parliamentarians in other countries and the public service. Private sector wage settlements This bill is a sensible and reasonable approach to were 2.2 per cent in February 1998, and recent public service parliamentary compensation. I urge all honourable senators to settlements have averaged about 2 per cent. support it.

Senators and MPs have not had a remuneration increase, other On motion of Senator Berntson, debate adjourned. than partial cost of living adjustments, since 1980. In 1980, the sessional indemnity was 120 per cent of the average salary of a high school principal; in 1996, it was 75 per cent. CANADIAN PARKS AGENCY BILL

In 1997, Canadian MPs ranked ninth in a survey of SECOND READING remuneration — below Japan, the United States, France, Germany, the United Kingdom, Australia, Norway and New On the Order: Zealand. Indeed, the Blais report noted that a Canadian parliamentarian’s salary in October 1997 was 37 per cent of that Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable of a United States Congressman. Senator Fitzpatrick, seconded by the Honourable Senator Moore, for the second reading of Bill C-29, to establish the The second key provision of the bill would allow members Parks Canada Agency and to amend other Acts as a who opted out of the pension plan in the last Parliament to be allowed to opt back in. Members of the other place who are at consequence. least 55 years of age and choose not to opt back in would be given a supplementary severance allowance equal to one month’s Hon. David Tkachuk: Honourable senators, Senator remuneration for every year of service up to a maximum of Fitzpatrick, who is from the province of British Columbia, gave 12 months. Allowing members of the other place to opt back into his maiden speech on Bill C-29. He aptly described what the the MPs’ pension plan is consistent with the government’s view government’s intentions are in respect of this bill. that the MPs’ pension plan is a reasonable plan for members of Parliament. Honourable senators, Bill C-29 is a bureaucratic response to a lack of policy initiatives by the federal government in respect of For those members of the other place who choose not to opt the national parks of Canada. We in Western Canada have a back in, there would be a supplementary severance allowance. particular interest in this public policy because so much of the Members of the other place who retire at 55 and are not entitled land mass of all of the national parks in Canada are located in our to a pension would receive an additional one month of part of the country. We are also home to some of the most remuneration for every year of service to a maximum of popular parks in all of Canada, while Alberta, our sister province, 12 months. Members of the other place who are under 55 years is home to the most popular park in all of Canada, Banff National of age would receive the supplementary severance allowance Park. when they turn 55 years of age. This provision is similar to the severance package for the Ontario legislature, which provides for  (2120) a 12-month severance allowance. In the last five years, the Liberal government has been The bill also provides for a small increase in the allowance anything but inspirational in this matter. There has been, and payable to the Speaker of the Senate and an allowance for the continues to be, much controversy as to how our parks will be Speaker pro tempore in the Senate. This was recommended by managed. With this bill, the government is attempting to blame the Blais report to give parity with comparable allowances in the the system for the lack of policy direction and is arguing that if other place. we have an agency rather than a department managing the parks, everything will be better and the management will be more [Translation] efficient, more productive, and more in tune with what the users in the park need and desire. The government, it seems, will Here are a few recent observations by the media. According to accomplish this by setting up an agency, a quasi-department, a The Toronto Star: Crown-corporation hybrid, and by shifting the present staff to the new agency. The time is right for a modest increase in parliamentary salaries. Members deserve a salary increase. That, honourable senators, is the logic behind the bill. The government is saying it will improve the park system by According to La Presse: establishing a new agency of government. It seems to feel that by taking the same people that were running the parks before and It is in democracy’s interest to raise members’ salaries. moving them to this new agency, things will improve. 1762 SENATE DEBATES June 15, 1998

The only significant change will be the mandatory backpack, for example, it costs $6 per person. In case any consultation every two years. Instead of depositing user fees for honourable senator does not know, backpacking is wandering parks into the Consolidated Revenue Fund, they will be taken up around the park with a pack on your back and going off the and used by this new agency without having to go to the House beaten track. You do not stay on the pavement in Banff. You of Commons except once every two years. This sleight of hand wander into the mountains with a backpack and they charge you will mean that 20 per cent of the budget of the parks will not six bucks. That is a user fee. have to move to general appropriations. What the government is trying to accomplish with this agency is to give itself more If you park your car, you have to pay. You cannot park your freedom to establish user fees and then to spend them as they see car in the park without paying. If you are in a town, it could be a fit without having to come to Parliament for permission. meter. Let us say you want to wander off and you need a place to park your car for a while. They have parking lots. You cannot I have four major concerns regarding this bill. The first is the park your car outside those lots because you will get a ticket. removal of user fees, which has been a controversial matter over the last five years and is the way the government has raised If you want to camp, you must pay a fee. If you use anything revenue to meet its deficit mandates, something which I call whatsoever in the park, there is a fee. Therefore, if you are taxing people without representation. The second area of concern paying user fees for everything you use in the park, what was the is the use of government personnel to solicit cash for goods and general admission price for? The air you breathe? It is a tax, it is services. Third is the consultation process, which they claim is a tax, it is a tax, because everything in the park is paid for by user mandated in the bill every two years. Fourth is the argument by fees. The admission is simply the right to enter. That is all it is: a government that privatization in parks has been a failure and that tax. the agency will not be going in that direction. Let us now talk about the part of the bill that says the parks Honourable senators, make no mistake about it: User fees are a will consult. I know how national parks consult. That was one of tax, are a tax, are a tax. The federal government has appropriated the first issues I had to deal with when I was appointed in 1993. billions of dollars over the years from the taxpayers to establish It was a small issue but I remember the national parks national parks. Taxpayers have paid for the parks. Taxpayers administration was wandering around the country consulting on have paid for the capital improvements in the parks. Taxpayers user fees. These are the same people who will be in the new have hired the staff in the parks. In fact, the taxpayers have paid agency that we are told will consult. The government is not for everything. All user fees should go to the Consolidated changing the people in the administration. They will simply be Revenue Fund and the departments and agencies should come the same people doing the same consulting. before the Parliament of Canada requesting their total budget. To do otherwise gives a licence to an arm of government to impose Honourable senators, on November 17, 1994, I asked the then a tax to pay for some grandiose scheme that they have dreamt up acting leader, the Honourable Senator Molgat, a question in and are planning to implement. reference to the consultation process that was going on at that time in the province of Saskatchewan in regard to Waskesiu. The The problem with user fees is that they are only charged by government issued an answer saying that the people involved in government on things that people need and want, therefore education in the Prince Albert area, such as the principals and the giving bureaucrats a lot of incentive to charge more. Take health school teachers, agreed with charging fees in the summertime. In care as an example. Everyone fears user fees there because June, teachers are tired so they throw the kids on a bus. They people need health care. It is a good way to get revenue. Airport want to send them on a new experience, so they ship them to a fees in Vancouver are another example. You have paid for your national park to learn something about the environment and the ticket. It already has a $56 user fee on top of the ticket price, in world in which they live. However, they wanted to impose a fee case you did not notice. Then you walk into the airport to get on of $2.00 per child, and they said that everyone had agreed. the plane and they hit you for another $10.  (2130) Park fees are another example. On June 7, 1994, Mr. Boyd Clarke, on behalf of the Prince These fees can be charged in these areas because the Albert School District No. 3, wrote a letter to Ms Terry Jackson government has a monopoly. They do not charge user fees for the of the park, stating: National Film Board and the CBC because no one would pay them. That is why there is no user fee for the CBC. The public It was the feeling of the group that no extra charges says, “It is free. Take it out of general appropriations.” They should be put in place for services offered at a National cannot get any more tax dollars out of it because no one would volunteer any more tax dollars for it. Park. It is appropriate to remember that funding for all park activities already rests with the Canadian taxpayer, and In national parks, you pay a fee to get in. In some cases, it is perhaps your directive to recover some of the program costs $10 per person; in other cases, $20 per car. Then if you want to from those who use the park needs to be re-examined.

[ Senator Tkachuk ] June 15, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1763

Yet, surprisingly, in a survey distributed to park users by the how they turned it around and stated that they phoned some national park, officials said: teachers. I am sure if you were a Liberal and a left winger you would have replied in this way. However, in the province of School groups now pay a very modest entry fee of $10.00 Saskatchewan, some Reformers and Tories would probably per bus. They also enjoy a very high level of service... disagree with that proposition. I can visualize polsters phoning a teacher and asking: “Do you think we should charge students The letter goes on and on about how wonderful the park is. It admission fees to a national park?” and the response being “Oh, then states: I think it is a wonderful idea. Charge students more money. I support the government on this.” ...if we wish to continue to provide quality educational programs, we will need to recover some of the costs. Our Honourable senators, do not believe that for a minute. I will consultation with teachers and principals indicates that a fee not say they L-I-E-D, but I will say that the bureaucrats were of $2.00 per student for the duration of their stay is twisting the truth. These are the same people who will be going reasonable. through the same consultation process in the future and offering advice. They will be phoning people in the community and That was a big surprise to the school officials because telling us that they consulted the people, and the people were in Ms Shirley Gange, director of education for the public schools in favour of higher fees. Prince Albert, on October 14 of that year restated the public schools’ opposition to the fee increase when she stated: The argument is that fees are based on cost recovery. That is the government’s premise by its introduction of this bill. That is ...any additional charges directed at school groups would nonsense. I think I have appropriately demonstrated that no result in a significant reduction in our attendance at the consultation has taken place. park. Within the park, one must deal with the bureaucracy that fixes Our concern is that, in a brochure distributed by Parks the prices. In fact, no business goes on inside the park that cannot Canada, a statement was made that: be privatized. The reason the government argues that privatization has failed is because, if parks were privatized, you Our consultation with teachers and principals indicates would have competition and you could no longer charge a big that a fee of $2.00 per student for the duration of their user fee. If we had a private campground operating a national stay is reasonable. park rather than the civil servants, the fees might be lower. In light of these irregularities that are being permitted to go on The argument that privatization has been a failure, as in Waskesiu and other parks in Canada, I would ask that the propagated by the minister in charge, is nonsense. The Leader of the Government in the Senate request that the minister bureaucrats might get some argument from Canadian Pacific, conduct an audit. What Terry Jackson was trying to imply and which operates the Banff Springs Hotel in Banff National Park; Shirley Gange, the director of education, clearly stated, is that no the Château Lake Louise, which operates in Banff National Park; one talked to them, no one sent them a letter and no one surveyed Starbucks Coffee Company, and a host of other restaurants and any principal or anyone in the Department of Education. services in all of the national parks of Canada where private enterprise seems to work extremely well servicing the public. Of course, the then Acting Leader of the Government The exception seems to be that they cannot run a campground. responded and telling me that he would attempt to get a response They cannot take admission at the gate. Apparently, we need a from the minister, which is the standard response. bureaucracy to do that. In part, the answer to my question was as follows: Honourable senators, I maintain — and some will disagree with me — that private individuals, businesses and enterprises In the summer of 1994, more than 100 teachers were can and should operate the camp sites and perform all the work contacted by letter and telephone by Prince Albert National that goes with that such as maintaining the grounds, landscaping, Park to solicit their feedback on initial proposals for user providing security, garbage disposal and snow removal. fees. Visitors were also asked for their opinions... What do all those people who work in Waskesiu do in winter The overall response from those who participated in the when the park is closed? After October, the only people who can consultations related to Prince Albert National Park was go into the park are those who work there, the bureaucrats. There supportive of the proposal to charge students a fee on a is nothing for them to do except clean up after themselves. If you per person per day basis... have lived in northern Saskatchewan for any length of time, you know that winter takes up a large portion of the year. Frankly, no Honourable senators, I know a little bit about human nature. I one goes to that park on the long weekend in May. No one shows believe the director of education. No one consulted her. Notice up until July 1. 1764 SENATE DEBATES June 15, 1998

None of this will happen because parks might be cheaper to go become even more expensive. Then the only people who will be to and more people might want to visit them. That is the able to visit Banff will be rich people. conundrum of the park operation. It is the conundrum of the minister: What will we do if people actually want to come to the The cost of hotel rooms in Banff will go up because of a lack park? What we do is make it difficult for them to come because of new competition. When you go to Banff National Park today, if people come, it is bad for the environment, you see. We you pay a tremendous amount of money for a hotel room only prevent people from coming to the park by charging them and because there is no way for expansion to take place. The only making sure we do not have competition. people who go there are people who can pay between $200 and $350 per day for a hotel room. Ordinary folks must sleep for I found it interesting that our present Minister of Parks, Sheila $6 bucks a night in a tent. They cannot sleep in the car or they Copps, saw fit to scold the people of Banff. This is the great will be fined. You must be in a campground. It is an indictable consultation process. We will all remember this new consultation federal offence to sleep in your car in a national park. It is a bad process. She said to the people of Banff, “I want you to come up thing to happen. with a plan with respect to how we deliver the services to the people who want to come to Banff National Park.” You know Anyway, honourable senators, the idea of consultation is false. what? They worked for a year and they did that, and the minister I believe user fees will get out of control. I believe that senators said she was very disappointed in them. on this side agree with me when I say that the federal government has not developed a plan for the national park Senator Berntson: Without even seeing it. system over the next century. The government does not know what it is doing. The government is using Bill C-29 as an excuse to pretend that it is actually doing something and it is telling the Senator Tkachuk: She was very disappointed in them people of Canada that it is doing something. I urge all honourable because they did not present an eco-plan for the next century — senators, at the risk of disagreeing with Senator Fitzpatrick, to whatever that is. vote against this bill. Senator Taylor seems to find this amusing. Perhaps he could Hon. Céline Hervieux-Payette: Honourable senators, we help me out, since he comes from the province of Alberta where have heard many allegations. However, the plan that the federal Banff National Park is located. However, I still do not know government is following is one which has been followed in anything about the eco-plan for the town of Banff in the province Quebec and which works very well there. Has the honourable of Alberta. senator been made aware of some examples where this plan is working well, where there is no abuse and where the services are That is the consultation process of the government. The better since operations have been guided by an independent government says, “Come and help us because we want your corporation? Does he know that? ideas.” However, when they do come forward, the minister gives the people of Banff heck and chastises them for wanting others to Senator Tkachuk: I agree with you. come to the park. Senator Hervieux-Payette: Fine.  (2140) The Hon. the Acting Speaker: Honourable senators, I wish to I know that all honourable senators want to see a national park inform the Senate that if the Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick system that works, but we should vote against Bill C-29. We speaks now, his speech will have the effect of closing debate on should throw it out and thereby send a signal to the government the motion for second reading of this bill. that they must start thinking about what they will do with all the parks in Canada. How will we govern them so that people can Hon. Ross Fitzpatrick: Honourable senators, I move second enjoy them? How will we plan for future development of the reading of this bill. parks to make people feel welcome and yet not destroy the environment? We want people to feel that they are a part of their The Hon. the Acting Speaker: Honourable senators, it was parks, rather than feeling they are being nickel-and-dimed to moved by the Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick, seconded by the death every time they walk in. Honourable Senator Moore, that this bill be read the second time. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion? Some may think that these grand ecological ideas are great. I will tell you what is happening in Banff today, and it will happen Some Hon. Senators: Agreed. in other parks. It is a problem which must be solved. If you tell a community that they cannot grow and if you cut their borders Some Hon. Senators: No. and tell them there will be no more services, then nothing that happens in Banff will benefit anyone and it will cause things to Motion agreed to and bill read second time, on division.

[ Senator Tkachuk ] June 15, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1765

REFERRED TO COMMITTEE principles of public administration, current government structure and government decision-making. The Hon. the Acting Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this bill be read the third time? The Honourable John Reid is a native of Fort Frances, Ontario, and studied at St. Paul’s College at the University of Manitoba On motion of Senator Fitzpatrick, bill referred to the Standing and at the University of Toronto. He was first elected as a Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural member of the other place in 1965 and again in 1968, 1972, Resources. 1974, 1979 and 1980. He served as parliamentary secretary to the president of Privy Council in 1972 and became Minister of State INFORMATION COMMISSIONER for Federal-Provincial Relations on November 24, 1978. He made a major contribution to the reform of campaign expense MOTION ON APPOINTMENT—DEBATE ADJOURNED legislation and worked on the creation of an access-to-information system to allow Canadians greater access Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Deputy Leader of the to government information. For several years he worked for a Government), pursuant to notice of June 11, 1998, moved: group well known to all honourable senators, the Company of Young Canadians. That, in accordance with section 54 of the Access to Information Act, Chapter A-1, RSC (1985), the [Translation] Senate approve the appointment of the Honourable John M. Honourable senators, he also served with distinction in the Reid, P.C., as Information Commissioner. private sector. Mr. Reid’s name was submitted by members of the She said: Honourable senators, the position of Information opposition in the other chamber, including members of the same Commissioner has been vacant following the expiration of John party as my honourable opposition colleagues in the Senate. This Grace’s term of office on April 30, 1998. Passage of the Access in itself is indicative of the respect in which members of all to Information Act in 1983 gave Canadians the broad legal right parties hold him. I note that the other chamber passed a motion in of access to information recorded in any form and controlled by his honour on June 10, 1998. most federal institutions, subject to limited and specific exemptions. The Information Commissioner is a special [English] ombudsperson appointed by Parliament to investigate complaints Honourable senators, I recommend Mr. Reid with enthusiasm that the government has denied rights under the Access to and without qualification. With his distinguished career in public Information Act, Canada’s freedom of information legislation. life and private sector, I believe he will be an excellent The Information Commissioner is independent of government information commissioner and I thank all honourable senators for and has strong investigative powers. The commissioner’s their support. priorities are to convince government to release information On motion of Senator Kinsella, debate adjourned. informally without resort to the formalities of the access law or the rigours of the federal court; to follow a non-adversarial approach to resolve complaints in a fair, equitable and BUSINESS OF THE SENATE expeditious manner; and to ensure that response deadlines are consistently respected across government. Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Deputy Leader of the Government): Honourable senators, I understand there is This is an extremely important position. It requires an agreement on both sides that we allow all other matters on the individual who possesses experience in managing at the senior Order Paper to stand in the position where they are on this day. executive level and in innovating and leading a multi-disciplinary team on sensitive issues in a public Hon. Noël A. Kinsella (Acting Deputy Leader of the environment. The commissioner must have a thorough Opposition): Honourable senators, that is agreed. knowledge of the Access to Information Act as well as an understanding of the rules of natural justice and fairness and the The Senate adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m. CONTENTS Monday, June 15, 1998

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New Senators Senator Andreychuk...... 1757 The Hon. the Speaker...... 1750 Introduction. The Hon. the Speaker...... 1750 Post-Secondary Education Senator Graham...... 1750 Millenium Scholarship Foundation—Comparison of Accountability Senator Lynch-Staunton...... 1753 with Canada Pension Plan Investment Board—Disclosure of Senator St. Germain...... 1753 By-laws—Government Position. Senator Tkachuk...... 1757 Senator Spivak...... 1754 Senator Graham...... 1757 Senator Prud’homme...... 1754 Solicitor General Senator Buchanan...... 1754 Investigation by RCMP of Release of Private Records to Press— Government Position. Senator Kinsella...... 1757 Senator Graham...... 1757 SENATORS’ STATEMENTS Indian Affairs and Northern Development The Senate Request of Dene Nation for Appointment of Independent Reflections on Various Party Leaders. Senator Gigantès...... 1755 Boundary Commission to Review Western Boundary of Nunavut—Government Position. Senator Spivak...... 1758 Senator Graham...... 1758 ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

A Bill to Change the Name of Certain Electoral Districts (Bill C-410) ORDERS OF THE DAY Message from the Commons...... 1755 Question of Privilege Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation Order Stands. The Hon. the Speaker...... 1758 and Safety Board Act (Bill S-2) Bill to Amend—Amendments from Commons...... 1755 Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Bill (Bill C-6) Third Reading—Motion in Amendment—Debate Adjourned. The Estimates, 1998-99 Senator Kinsella...... 1758 Report of National Finance Committee on Supplementary Motion in Amendment. Senator Kinsella...... 1759 Estimates (A) Presented and Printed as Appendix. Senator Stratton...... 1755 Income Tax Amendments Bill, 1997 (Bill C-28) Third Reading—Order Stands. Senator Carstairs...... 1759 Budget Implementation Bill, 1998 (Bill C-36) Senator Simard...... 1759 Report of Committee. Senator Stratton...... 1755 Appropriation Bill No. 2, 1998-99 (Bill C-45) National Parks Act (Bill C-38) Second Reading—Debate Adjourned. Senator Cools...... 1759 Bill to Amend—First Reading...... 1756 Parliament of Canada Act, Social Affairs, Science and Technology Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, Notices of Motion to Authorize Committee to Study Salaries Act (Bill C-47) Dimensions of Social Cohesion in Canada. Senator Murray... 1756 Senator Carstairs...... 1760

Canada-United States Inter-Parliamentary Group Canadian Parks Agency Bill (Bill C-29) Thirty-Ninth Annual Meeting—Notice of Inquiry. Second Reading. Senator Tkachuk...... 1761 Senator Grafstein...... 1756 Senator Hervieux-Payette...... 1764 Senator Fitzpatrick...... 1764 Referred to Committee...... 1765

QUESTION PERIOD Information Commissioner Motion on Appointment—Debate Adjourned. Atomic Energy of Canada Senator Carstairs...... 1765 Aid and Information Supplied to Purchasers of CANDU Reactors— Difference of Opinion on Financial Risks—Government Position. Business of the Senate Senator Spivak...... 1756 Senator Carstairs...... 1765 Senator Graham...... 1756 Senator Kinsella...... 1765 Canada Post Corporation / Société canadienne des postes

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