Community Boxing in Conflict Transformation for Working Class Youth in Belfast

Fighting For Peace - An Exploratory Study of the Potential of Cross- Community Boxing in Conflict Transformation for Working Class Youth in Belfast

Alex William Hanrahan

11265779

A postgraduate research thesis submitted to the University of Amsterdam in part fulfilment of the degree of Master of Science in Conflict Resolution and Governance.

30th June 2017

Graduate School of Social Sciences,

University of Amsterdam,

Nieuwe Achtergracht 166

1018 WV Amsterdam

The Netherlands.

Program Director: Dr. David Laws

Thesis Supervisor: Dr. Michelle Parlevliet

Second Reader: Dr. David Laws

Contents

Acknowledgements 4 Abstract 7

Chapter 1- Introduction 8

Setting the Scene The Research Goal Aim Objective and Relevance History of Northern Ireland/ Cultural Context Research Question Outline of Thesis

Chapter 2 – Theoretical Framework 14

Conflict Transformation Key Theoretical Frameworks Contact Theory Attitude Change Theory

Chapter 3 -Literature review 22

Boxing Literature in Northern Ireland Conflict Transformation Literature in Northern Ireland Sport for Development and Peace Community Relations in Northern Ireland Reports on Boxing in Northern Ireland

Chapter 4 – Research Design & Methodology 31

Overall Goal Methods and Data Ethical issues Reflexivity & Limitations Duration and Timing of Research

Chapter 5 - Findings 40

(1) Identity 41 Identity Imagery Suspicion Integration as a Ploy? Representative Rights or Sectarian Manoeuvring? A Welcome Coming Together

Urban versus Rural Intra-Community Divisions (2) Geographical Structure 49 Peace Walls Working Class Origins OPBC as a ‘safe place’ CBBA as a ‘safe place’ Us versus Them Mentality Psychological Barriers (3) Boxing Structure on island of Ireland 55 Representation Breakaway Clubs Relationship between Clubs and the IABA

Chapter 6 – Discussion 62

(1) Identity 62 Identity Imagery Suspicion (2) Geographical Structure 65 Safe Place Us versus Them Mentality (3)Boxing Structures on the island of Ireland 68 Representation Breakaway Clubs Relationship between the clubs and the IABA

Chapter 7 - Conclusion 72

Summary of Findings and Conclusions Drawn Why the Research is Important? Recommendations for Improving Situation Recommendations for Future Research

Bibliography 79

Appendix Appendix A: Independent Report Recommendations 87 Appendix B: Interview 1.Joe Campbell (Mediator) 89 Appendix C: Interview 2.Terry McCorran (CBBA) 107 Appendix D: Interview 3.Patsy McAllister + Jimmy McGrath (OPBC) 138

Word Count – 26,587

Acknowledgements

There have been many individuals over the course of this study that have contributed and provided assistance in methodology, planning, research, interviewing, hospitality, supervision and general advice. Without these individuals, none of this could have been possible over the past year.

Firstly, I want to acknowledge those in Northern Ireland who were particularly welcoming over the month of field research. I want to thank Patsy McAllister and Jimmy McGrath from Oliver Plunkett ABC, who even during their time off made the effort to come down and open up the club for me. They had the capacity to speak in length about the history of their club, the sport of boxing, and the inner workings of the sport on the island of Ireland. I will also be forever grateful for them allowing me to witness their training sessions, introducing me to their boxers, and inviting me down to the Boys Championships in the National Stadium in Dublin. Over the month they spoke with honesty and integrity and the hospitality shown will be something that will live long in the memory.

I’m also equally indebted to Terry McCorran of the City of Belfast Boxing Academy who welcomed me into his club and spoke candidly in all of our interactions. I was made to feel at ease in a neighbourhood that, traditionally, I would not have had much experience of and was naturally apprehensive entering at first. Terry made time to speak to me and air his grievances around boxing in Northern Ireland which has left his club out in the cold. His boxers were open and willing to speak informally on multiple occasions. The insights gained from these conversations with Terry and his boxers were invaluable over the course of the research.

I should also like to thank all other boxers and coaches I spoke to over the month in Belfast and the Championships in Dublin. While none spoke in an official capacity, the information provided built a solid comparative base that put my research within a wider boxing context on the island.

The final person I want to thank for his time during my field research is Joe Campbell. On the first day in the field Joe met me in the famous Europa Hotel in Belfast, welcoming me in the most bombed hotel in the world. Joe provided me with his unique historical and contextual

4 analysis of Belfast over the past fifty years, and helped explain the intricacies that permeate Northern Irish society to this very day.

Over the course of the past year there have been many people in the University of Amsterdam who have been instrumental in making this thesis happen. At the start of my time in UvA I was given a strong methodological grounding and understanding by Alex Voicu. While at the time he was fully aware it wasn’t the most exciting course in the world, it has indeed stood me in good stead during the research. I would like to acknowledge Dr. Polly Pallister- Wilkins, Dr. Anja van Heelsum, Dr. Jana Krause, and Dr. Martijn Dekker for their support and advice over the past few months, both in class and through outside conversation. Often when inspiration or clarity was needed, it was provided.

I am especially indebted to both Dr. David Laws and Dr. Michelle Parlevliet who have worked closely with me over my time in UvA. Since September, David has reinvigorated my love for academic study. He has challenged me constantly and opened my mind up to new ideas, and different approaches to research. Michelle, my supervisor, has had to deal with my somewhat erratic style of research which comes together slowly and is not without its miniature heart attacks along the way. I would like to apologise in this case for any high blood pressure I may have caused over the four or five months. All the times I drifted my focus, or became too engrossed in the practical results and needed to be redirected, she provided that direction. When confusion arose and it created a feeling of being overwhelmed, Michelle often overwhelmed herself in order to help my process, all of this while in the process of planning her wedding. I would like to wish Michelle and her husband the very best in the future and her to know that I really appreciate all that she has done over a busy few months.

I would like to also thank my friends for all the support that I have received throughout the year. From my classmates in the Methodology course, to the members of the Mediation Workshop, to my group in the Conflict Resolution class, and to my friends from all walks of life in and around Amsterdam, it was you who helped make my first year living in a foreign country an absolute pleasure.

Finally, my greatest depth of gratitude goes to my family who have been by my side along the way. To my grandfather, Capt. Bill Hanrahan, who has instilled a value for time, education, and money into me that I will never lose. To my aunt, Elaine, for enabling me to rant on American politics at length over the phone, thank you for not hanging up. To my late

5 grandmother, Nora, for continuing to light those candles for me. To my sister, Claire, who has kept me positive in times of stress and helped to me keep focused when distractions started to creep in. To my mother, Louise, for being the tough but fair voice in my life, and who knows me and my personality better than anyone I know. Lastly, I would like to thank my father, Des, whose academic brain became particularly invaluable in the concluding weeks when I needed proof reading, opinions and guidance. You’ve been an “extremely massive” help whenever I’ve needed you most.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhairmid.

We all exist in each other’s shadow.

Abstract

Belfast, the capital city of Northern Ireland, is a city divided along political, religious and cultural lines having emerged from decades of violent conflict. While sport is often used to express these divisions, boxing has been an exception, having been a unifying sport in Northern Ireland and possibly the only working class sport which has, until the violence of the late 20th Century, managed to avoided major sectarian division (Sugden 1995: 2010). The study sets out to build on this rich unifying history by attempting to explore the potential of cross-community boxing for ‘conflict transformation’ for working-class youth from segregated Unionist and Nationalist communities in Belfast. It identifies the conditions needed to support conflict transformation and examines whether these conditions are present to support cross-community boxing in Northern Ireland. A mixed-method research approach, was employed comprising of semi-structured interviews, participant observation (with informal verbal contact) as well as desk research, in order to explore the subject from a number of angles over the course of the study. This draws on conflict theory and on attitude theory to help understand how cross-community boxing may help bring about conflict transformation by bringing together people from different identities, in order to change their behaviour and attitudes towards one another. The study found that, while cross community boxing does have the potential for conflict transformation, realisation is largely confined to within-club cross cultural contact, where conditions such as equal status, common goals, intergroup cooperation and strong leadership from coaches are present. However, this potential is not being realised in the wider inter community settings due to a number of negative attitudes and other behaviours grouped around identity, geographical structures and the structure and regulation of boxing on the island of Ireland. The study concluded that there needs to be a major restructuring of the Irish Athletic Boxing Association in order for it to be more open to, and accommodating of, diverse views as well as societal development, and the removal of physical and psychological boundaries, before the potential of boxing can be realised for the benefit of all the community.

Chapter 1

INTRODUCTION

“By its very nature, sport is about participation. It is about inclusion and bridging cultural or ethnic divides. Sport can cut across barriers that divide societies, making it a powerful tool to support conflict prevention and peace-building efforts. When applied effective, sport programmes promote social integration and foster tolerance, helping to reduce tension and generate dialogue” (UN Inter-Agency Task Force on Sport for Development and Peace, 2005).”

This introduction will first set the scene by bringing the reader up to date on where Northern Ireland stands today, Thursday 29th June 2017. After this it will address the research goal followed by the aims, objectives and relevance of the study before placing the study in the context of recent Northern Ireland history. After that it will state the research question ahead of providing a brief outline of the thesis.

SETTING THE SCENE

The field work for this study was undertaken in March 2017 in the wake of a bitter election for the Northern Ireland Assembly. The previous Assembly had been undermined back in December 2016 when Shin Fein, the extreme Nationalist party and second largest party in the Northern Ireland power sharing Government, withdrew its support for the Democratic Unionist Party, the largest party in the Assembly and a party that represents extreme Unionism. In the election that followed, both of these parties took seats from the smaller centrist parties, thus reinforcing traditional divisions. Today 29th June 2017, despite splitting fifty-six percent of the vote evenly between them, these parties have not yet been able to form a government. They have until next Monday 3rd. July to do so!

THE RESEARCH GOAL

This study sets out to explore the potential of cross-community boxing for ‘conflict transformation’ for working-class youth from segregated Unionist and Nationalist communities in Belfast, the Capital city of Northern Ireland.

The central core of this study is based on the concept of conflict transformation (Lederach 2003). Around this core, the study uses theories of interpersonal contact and theories that concentrate on the changing of attitudes and perceptions, through direct contact.

Due to the limited literature specific to boxing as a form of conflict transformation the study draws on complementary work from the allied field of ‘Sports for Development and Peace.

The research is centred on the amateur boxing community in Belfast, and on just two boxing clubs in particular. This is supplemented by reference to other clubs, to representational boxing (representing one’s country) and to all Ireland, National and International governing bodies where such areas are necessary for a robust exploration.

AIM OBJECTIVE AND RELEVANCE

The topic selected for this study was chosen using a process devised by Booth et.al., (2003) in which a broad topic is narrowed down to a discrete topic for research. In this instance the broad topic was politics in sport, which has always been of interest of the researcher. This was refined to Sports for Development and Peace (SDP) and then further refined to become the potential of cross-community boxing for conflict transformation.

Initially, the broader topic had been inspired by the creation of a ceasefire in 2006 by the national football team of the Ivory Coast, which had brought a halt to a long and bloody civil war in the state. This led to a reflection about whether sport should play a much more active role in conflict resolution and specifically conflict transformation.

It is a common perception that sport and politics should remain separate. (Armstrong and Mitchell, 2008). However, it is this researcher’s belief that this stems from the perception that

9 all sport is tribal. This is a generalization that has grown from football supporters and hooligans in particular (Dunning et al., 2002; Hanrahan 2014).

According to Bairner (2000:181,182), football in Northern Ireland reflects the societal divisions created by the partition of the island of Ireland in 1921, when Northern Ireland inherited a Protestant Unionist majority and the Irish Free State, later to become the Republic of Ireland, inherited a Catholic Nationalist majority. This division, and the internal tensions it created in Northern Ireland, led to expressions of identity through sport which, in the case of football, resulted in the withdrawal of the two predominantly Catholic supported teams from the Northern Irish league, Derry City (1985) and Belfast Celtic (1949). Boxing, however differs from this as it is an individual sport. It also differs in that it has a history of being a unifying sport in Northern Ireland, and is possibly the only working class sport which has, until the violence of the late 20th Century, managed to avoided major sectarian division (Sugden 1995: 2010). For this reason it provides unique opportunity to explore the potential of a sport (amateur boxing) for conflict transformation in the current post conflict ‘peace process’ that was brought about in Northern Ireland by the Belfast Agreement 1998.

Anecdotally, boxing is often dismissed as violent and dominated by thugs. However, it provides a way for young men and women to channel their anger and frustration in a positive manner under guidelines and rules (Hassan, 2005). Much of the academic research on boxing, and indeed other sports, and its relationship with conflict in Northern Ireland predates the Good Friday Agreement, a name commonly used to refer to the Belfast Agreement, which brought a formal end to the conflict in Northern Ireland in 1998. (Sugden, 1991; Cronin 1997; NIA 2017). The most recent findings available indicate that just prior to the Good Friday Agreement, eighty percent of boxers were working class males under the age of twenty-five; forty per-cent were Protestant and sixty per-cent were Catholic (Cronin, 1997). It was found that “administrators felt that boxing had complete cross-community contacts and that the composition of teams, the nature of competitions and coaching occurred on an integrated basis” (Cronin 1997: 138). This finding has been questioned (NIA 2001).

Finally, the long history, prevalence and importance of boxing in Ireland and especially in Northern Ireland, suggests that it is a suitable case for study. For example, in a report listing the twenty best Irish boxers of all time, thirteen originated from Northern Ireland (Flats, 2011). Boxing’s popularity there, and its links with working class youth, have led to

10 initiatives such as the Belfast Beltway Boxing Project1 that aims to make positive changes in the lives of the young boxers. This study is intended to build on this literature by exploring the current potential of cross-community boxing for ‘conflict transformation’ for working- class youth from segregated Unionist and Nationalist communities in Belfast.

HISTORY OF NORTHERN IRELAND AND CULTURAL CONTEXT

Although this study is centred on boxing, it is impossible to explore the topic without viewing it in the wider context of Belfast and Northern Irish society.

Belfast, to this day, is still a heavily divided society along predominantly religious and political lines. The most recent census in 2011 had the religious make up of Northern Ireland at 42% Protestant and 41% Catholic (NISRA 2011). The conflict in Northern Ireland is often simplistically described along religious lines. The Catholic population is generally indigenous to the island and their political views are represented by Nationalist and Republican politicians and groups. The Protestant population on the other hand has its their roots in the Great Britain (chiefly Scotland) and their views are represented by Loyalist and Unionist politicians and groups. While this is overly simplistic, this summation is accurate for many of the divides and interface areas in Belfast (Robson 2000: 67). Northern Ireland has four major political parties but there are two that are consistently ahead in the elections, the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) and Sinn Féin (Archick 2014). The DUP, the primary Unionist party, in the recent 2017 elections received 28.1% of the vote. Sinn Féin on the other hand, the main Nationalist party, received 27.9% of the vote (BBC 2017). This in itself shows the great divide running through society and how the majority of people still vote with identity politics. Since the election, the two parties have been unable to agree to form a consociational [power-sharing] government as Sinn Fein have called for reforms in the DUP. Four months since the election took place the parliament building in Stormont, Belfast remains empty.

1 is a cross-community boxing initiative, based in Washington D.C., which involves at-risk youth from the United States and Northern Ireland and takes them out of their conflict area for an annual competition. The project aims to teach these working-class youth “important life lessons” and show them alternatives to “crime and mischief, which is unfortunately a common route for many of these kids” (BBBP 2014)

In the past, Northern Ireland was marred by sectarian violence and atrocities carried out by Unionist and Republican/Nationalist paramilitaries. The worst period of violence in the conflict was between 1968 and 1998 and became known as ‘The Troubles’. This was a time in which more than 3,700 people were killed and many more remain missing. Relative to the size of the territory, which has a population of roughly 1.6 million, the effects of the conflict hit working-class families and neighbourhoods the hardest (McEvoy et.al. 2006: 82). In the capital city of Belfast, the majority of the violence and deaths occurred in areas which had the highest levels of segregation and social deprivation. These areas are predominantly situated by the ‘peace walls’ and are where a high number of boxing clubs in Belfast are situated (Mesev et.al 2009). Due to its relatively recent past, these ‘Troubles’ continue to be a huge burden on Northern Irish society and the remnants affect the daily lives of many of the citizens there. A major development in the history of the nation came in 1998 when the peace process led to the signing of the ‘Good Friday Agreement’. This created the power-sharing assembly that is present today and oversaw the relinquishing of direct British power from the region. It was not until 2007 however, that the British Army completely left Northern Ireland. This brought a major turning point for a place that once housed 27,000 troops (CNN 2017). Since then, violence in Northern Ireland has slowed greatly, although a joint intelligence report by the Police Service of Northern Ireland(PSNI) and MI5 found that all paramilitaries that were active during the ‘Troubles’ are still active today, albeit in criminal activity, intimidation, lower-level violence, and community control (PSNI 2015). The ‘peace walls’ that have separated communities throughout Belfast are a particularly contentious subject, especially as the government has started the process of slowly removing them from around the city. In 2012, a report found that 41% of Protestants believed that the removal of peace walls would hasten the disappearance of their communities, this compares with only 10% of Catholics who felt the same. A relatively similar figure was given for the potential disappearance of identity in these interface areas. (Byrne et.al. 2012: 13-14). Statistics such as this illustrate why those in the Unionist community who attempt cross- community work, such as Terry McCorran, who was interviewed for this study, often face backlash from the Loyalist paramilitaries. Northern Ireland also has to deal with the fact that it has a disproportional working class population in relation to the rest of the UK and the Republic of Ireland. Only in the past year have they recovered the number of people in the workplace to pre-2007 economic collapse levels. The GDP per head is the lowest in the UK by region and has flat lined completely

12 since late 2010. Male unemployment is on the rise with manufacturing jobs in companies such as Bombardier and Caterpillar taking big hits. Furthermore, the challenge that is Brexit is looming over the horizon. This has only sought to further complicate Northern Ireland’s economic situation (Campbell 2017). Yet still, with all these complexities it remains that people still vote along identity lines. One such analogy which encapsulates the economic and political landscape in Northern Ireland today comes from Professor Neil Gibson who likened Ulster in ‘The Economist’ to a “moody teenager learning to take responsibility for the first time. He hopes that one day an election will be determined by economic policy. When that happens, Ulster will have grown up” (The Economist 2015). It is from here where we can see the difficult arena in which cross-community boxing has to perform.

RESEARCH QUESTION: The aim of this study, as stated at the beginning of this chapter, is: To explore the potential of cross-community boxing for ‘conflict transformation’ of working- class youth from segregated Unionist and Nationalist communities in Belfast, the Capital city of Northern Ireland. The study will identify the conditions needed to support conflict transformation and examine whether these conditions are present to support cross-community boxing in Northern Ireland. The study will draw on conflict theory and on attitude theory to help understand how cross- community boxing may help bring about conflict transformation by bringing together people from different identities in order to change their behaviour and attitudes towards one another (‘the other’). This study will use a mixed methodology to advance its goals. This methodology is described in detail in Chapter 4

OUTLINE OF THESIS Chapter 2 provides an overview of the theoretical framework used to structure the research and analyse the findings, with special emphasis on the role of contact theory and change theory within a conflict transformation paradigm. Chapter 3 provides a review of the relevant literature while Chapter 4 provides an outline of the research design and methodology, including ethical issues, limitations and timelines. The study findings are presented in Chapter 5 and discussed in Chapter 6 before finally, Chapter 7 provides a summary of the study, conclusions and recommendations for both advancing conflict transformation and conducting future research.

Chapter 2

THEORETICAL FRAMEWORK

INTRODUCTION

This chapter will outline the theoretical framework for this study and how it is placed within a structure designed to enable an exploration of the potential of cross-community boxing for conflict transformation. In order to do this, we first need to consider what conflict transformation entails as it is the core structure on which other key theoretical frameworks are brought together. One of these, Contact Theory is used to provide an explanation for how cross community boxing may contribute to conflict transformation through, for example, increased contact leading to improved relationships. It highlights that in order for it to do so, several conditions need to be met such as having equal status, common goals, intergroup cooperation and an authority structure. The study also draws on Attitude Theory which complements Contact Theory by concentrating on the quality of change/transformation, such as its sustainability, how change is influenced by ingrained values, and the influence of motives on shaping social identity.

CONFLICT TRANSFORMATION

The theoretical framework used in this study is set within an overarching structure designed to support an exploration of the potential of cross-community boxing, within a ‘conflict transformation’ paradigm, among Belfast youth. Conflict transformation therefore, is chosen as the structure within which each of the other elements, including theories, will be brought together. In order to understand why this has been chosen it is first necessary to outline what is meant by conflict transformation.

In the late 1980’s, conflict transformation marked a unique development in traditional interventional thinking which was based on conflict management and conflict resolution. Although all three are centred on conflict and intervention, they differed in their approach. In particular. conflict transformation aimed to “develop capacity” and “support structural change” rather than look for specific outcomes (Miall 2004: 17).

Conflict transformation is a relatively recent theory which has been heavily influenced by others in the conflict field. Johan Galtung (1996) once stated that conflict has both constructive and destructive properties and this understanding is a major basis for the field of conflict transformation. He defined attitudes and behaviours as transformative areas which are dependent on how the conflict manifests itself in society (Galtung 1996, 116).

Azar (1990) was another whose work on protracted social conflicts gave guidance to those in the conflict transformation field. His study on protracted social conflicts focused on areas which have deep divides along ethnic, religious, cultural, or racial divides, such as Northern Ireland. This study showed how violence manifests itself through the interactions of these divisive groups at intermittent periods through time (Fisher 2001: 308). Azar’s work formed a model in which showed how a combination of grievances, context, capacity and particular actors can lead to a destructive or constructive conflict (Azar 1990). When reflecting on the divisional symptoms of the conflict in Northern Ireland, it is evident that it was the perfect storm for a destructive conflict, thus Azar’s work needs to be taken into account.

Conflict transformation became popularised from the late 80’s onwards through the work of John Paul Lederach in Central America. Lederach (2003) abandoned the notion of conflict resolution when conducting his research due to his noting of the fact that he was told on many occasions that conflict happens for a reason. The idea behind conflict transformation is that it seeks sustainable and constructive change, particularly in the “building of healthy relationships and communities, both locally and globally” (Lederach 2003). Similarly, Miall (2004) states that conflict transformation can be a catalyst for change, when addressed in the right manner. This entails moving past zero-sum outcomes where one side loses what the other gains. Conflict transformation views the social landscape as an all-encompassing arena in which the “relationships, interests, discourses and, if necessary, the very constitution of society that supports the continuation of violent conflict” may have to be transformed in order to make legitimate positive gains (Miall 2004: 4). It is compatible with the work of Galtung (1969, 1990) on addressing structural violence2 such as inequalities between communities,

2 Structural violence is an institutionalised form of discrimination prevents a group from attaining their ‘fundamental human needs’ (Galtung 1969)

15 and addressing cultural violence3, such as ingrained views towards ‘the other’ which are deemed to stem from one’s upbringing or youth socialisation.

Although focused more on large institutions, Boutros-Ghali, in his Agenda for Peace report, was another advocate for this long term, sustainable, and constructive approach to addressing structural issues in post-conflict situations. In his report he states that one must take “action to identify and support structures which will tend to strengthen and solidify peace in order to avoid a relapse into conflict” (Boutros-Ghali 1992).

Lederach (2003) identifies seven components that are crucial to address when adopting a conflict transformation. These include “a positive orientation toward conflict, and a willingness to engage”; to view a conflict event as part of a wider pattern of relationship and an awareness that conflict causes one to reflect on one’s decisions thus giving the potential for growth of oneself and views towards ‘the other’. A fourth component, as recognised by Galtung (1969, 1990), Boutros-Ghali (1992) and others promoting this paradigm, is the use of conflict as a means of long-term sustainable change by addressing structural and relationship issues. The remaining three components (peace as a process, the creation of inter-group networks and the importance of human relationships) are born out in the Northern Ireland ‘peace process’ with its institutional inter-government north-south, east-west structures supported by the ‘trusting’ cooperation of strong personalities (former enemies) driving it forward. These all-embracing components strongly suggest that conflict affects the personal, the relational, the structural and the cultural aspects of each person’s life (Lederach 2003). If this is so, then understanding the different components is crucial when going into the field as it allows the researcher to categorise and identify individual elements rather than thinking in general obtuse terms. It is hypothesised that boxing addresses many, and possibly all, of the seven components and, as such, appears to offer a subject for study where the application of a conflict transformational structure would be beneficial, when choosing a theoretical framework.

In the context of Northern Ireland, and this research study around boxing’s potential for conflict transformation, Rupesinghe’s approach, which favours multi-track diplomacy and interventions, is particularly relevant. He argues that all areas of society must be tackled,

3 Cultural violence is the use of any form of culture or identity to legitimize violence against another group. This manifests itself either direct violence, i.e. physical or verbal, or structural violence, i.e. the system or social structure prevents a portion of the population accessing basic needs (Galtung 1990).

16 from the grass-roots level, to civil society, to the government (Rupesinghe 1995, 1998). In the case of boxing, which the author has identified as a potential, albeit supplemental, area for conflict transformation, this is the approach that is best suited to the purpose of the study. This approach also addresses the difficulties that a practitioner may face in trying to implement change in a conflicting society. Successful multi-track diplomacy can only be achieved when internal and external actors have some form of co-ordination in attempting to implement conflict transformation. At times, one actor may hamper the efforts of another in the field without this co-ordination. Vitally, this approach states that in the field, practitioners “must pursue their aims with sensitivity to both the culture of the conflict area and the goals and constraints of other actors” (Miall 2004: 15). In Belfast, this was crucial when crossing the terrain for both interviewing and analysing boxing’s potential for conflict transformation within the wider context of Northern Ireland’s post-conflict society.

Finally, there are two key theoretical frameworks that the researcher needs to be aware of when conducting this study. They inform the context, but are especially useful when carrying out observations and interacting with both subjects and informants. These are Contact Theory and Attitude Change Theory. Each of these theories are discussed separately in the following section

KEY THEORETICAL FRAMEWORKS

Contact Theory

One of the main theoretical frameworks that will be used throughout this thesis is that of the use of direct contact as a form of reducing prejudice between groups. Gordon Allport (1954) was the first theorist to popularise this paradigm in the mid 50’s with his intergroup contact hypothesis. His hypothesis was that, in order to achieve positive results, these four conditions as outlined by Pettigrew had to be met. These four conditions were: equal status; common goals; intergroup co-operation; and an authority/overarching structure (Pettigrew 1998). This framework complements Lederach’s seven components and especially his emphasis on direct interaction and social structures (Lederach, 2003).

Equal status in this case refers to the need, or precondition, that all participants are equal within the contact setting. Although equal status is often hard to exactly define in many cases, it has been accepted by many scholars (Cohen & Lotan 1995, Cohen 1982, Riordan &

Ruggiero 1980, Robinson & Preston 1976) that the participants must presume and perceive each other as equal whilst in the contact setting. During the study it was important ascertain whether whether the boxers from both sides of the divide did in fact consider each other equal or not, as members of the same club and as opponents from different clubs.

Dealing with prejudices through contact also requires a goal-orientated approach according to Allport (1954). Intergroup sporting clubs are one effective means for encouraging this as they can achieve success together (Pettigrew 1998). This requires intergroup co-operation. This is a crucial condition when aiming to achieve goals and success together, with people on both sides striving towards a common goal (Bettencourt et.al. 1992). The notion of striving towards a common goal will be examined in the text to see if clubs that have boxers of Catholic and Protestant backgrounds display this behaviour. Finally, in line with Allport’s thinking, Pettigrew (1998) states that an authority is essential in order to have positive effects stemming from contact. Having this authority figure, or structure, establishes norms of what is acceptable and what is not in the social situation. This can also establish consequences or punishments for those not abiding by the systems norms.

Yehuda Amir (1969), like Allport, also emphasised direct contact, in a study undertaken for the purpose of helping Israeli schools adapt during a time of changing ethnic and socioeconomic relations. During this time he focused his work on both intra and cross- cultural studies which looked at the relations between multiple ethnic groups and the importance of contact between them. His research, similarly to Allport, indicated that particular conditions were needed for success. He found that conditions such as social standing and social setting are major factors in whether the results of contact are positive or negative as well as being crucial to the strength of the impact achieved. Amir concluded that there are seven principles that he believed addressed the conditions of where contact produced differing results. Some of his principles appear to be self-evident such as that contrast between members of ethnic groups tends to produce changes in attitude or that ‘favourable’ conditions tend to reduce prejudice while "unfavourable" ones may increase prejudice and intergroup tension. Others are more thought provoking and warn the researcher to the nuances involved in attitude change and the influence of research methodology. For example that if a change is produced, it does not necessarily follow that the change is in the direction of the attitude; that change in one context may not generalize to other aspects and that the favourable research into the effects of contact may be due to selection of favourable experimental situations. Unlike Allport (1954) and Lederach (2003), Amir’s principles

18 address some of the minute of social interaction such as equality of status, support from authority figures, the level of intimacy produced by the contact, pleasure, reward and the importance given to the goals of those in relationship vis-à-vis the goals of their respective groups. (Amir 1969: 338)

Amir’s seventh condition where he goes on to warn that ‘unfavourable’ conditions can have the opposite effect, and in particular where there is competition between the differing groups or where the participants are dealing with outside issues (Amir 1969). These principles are supportive of anyone researching the boxing’s potential for conflict transformation. Indeed this seventh principal was to inform the researcher when confronted by competition between groups over funding, identity and the need for structural change to accommodate the complex national identities that pervade Northern Ireland.

Attitude Change Theory

The second key theoretical framework that aim to work with is that of the processes of attitude change. Herbert Kelman (1938) was one of the first main theorists in this field of study and his work will form the basis of this theoretical approach as it applies to this study.

Kelman believed that it was not only important to understand if a change in attitude happened, but also what type of change had happened in a person. This related to both the intentions behind the change in attitude but also the length of time that this change is going to last for. In my study it will be important to find out how long people have been involved in boxing and specifically cross-community boxing. To truly understand the change in attitude, Kelman believed that one must look at both the ‘motivational processes’ that determine the change but also their ‘cognitive links’ or structure. He states that “changes in attitudes and actions produced by social influence may occur at different levels. It is proposed that these differences in the nature of level of changes that take place or correspond to differences in the process whereby the individual accepts influence (or conforms)” (Kelman 1938:52).

It is here in which a distinction is made between the processes of influence into three main routes: compliance, identification, and internalisation. Compliance is when an individual changes their behaviour or attitude due to the fact they are seeking a favourable reaction from another person. This relates heavily to areas in which there are systems of reward and punishment for conforming/not conforming. This is important to understand in the context of

19 cross-community boxing. If a boxer does not want to be involved in the cross-community boxing is there going to be a punishment or not? The satisfaction here is a direct result of the social effect. Identification is when an individual identifies with the other and their beliefs. This can come about by an acceptance of beliefs due to social standing, willingness for a personal relationship, or potentially due to their beliefs influencing you resulting in unquestionable acceptance of beliefs/attitudes in the future. Here, the satisfaction of the individual is from acting in order to gain the relationship. Internalisation is when your behaviour and attitude has changed without the influence of outside actors and with full internal acceptance to the fact. This is often the result of ingrained values and in turn the satisfaction is from the development of one’s actions (Kelman 1938:53).

Shavitt (1990) conducted her research on ‘attitude objects’ in changing attitude functions. Applying her analysis to boxing a boxer might for example buy expensive boxing gloves with Union Jack flags on them. The gloves in this scenario represent a physical use (the gloves themselves), a social status (the fact they are expensive), an identity purpose (the United Kingdom flag on them), and the fact that these combined made oneself feel good. Shavitt separated these into categories which are “utilitarian, social identity and self-esteem maintenance” (Shavitt 1990: 125). All of these attitudes towards an object then represent attitudes towards the wider world around you or gaining rewards, social or physical, for oneself. Katz (1960) said that attitudes were created for a person to make sense of their environment and provide an easy point of reference. These attitudes help to form consistent opinions towards something or someone.

Closely related to this, Katz (1960) states that attitudes can serve the purpose of showing one’s core values and self-concept. This is the idea that certain motives can shape one’s social identity, which can be both private and public. Smith et al. (1956) also recognised the role of attitudes in creating and shaping a person’s identity while also having a direct influence on the ability to relate to ‘the other’. Finally, as mentioned in the previous paragraph, attitudes play many roles in the maintenance of an individual’s self-esteem. Shavitt (1990) expands on this by showing how attitudes often work as a defensive mechanism for the preservation of one’s own beliefs in time of inner conflict. This is done by “projecting one’s own unacceptable impulses onto them [those seeking to change your beliefs]” (Shavitt 1990:126). This is a point backed up by Katz’s (1960) ego-defence function and Smith et al.’s (1956) externalisation function who both share the same belief. Tesser & Campbell (1983) add to this that a person will often make social comparisons and

20 consciously, or sub-consciously, make a decision on whether changing their attitudes is in their best interests. Understanding these motivations and processes behind attitude and how it changes is crucial to my research in Belfast and in turn understanding how boxing can make the change possible.

SUMMARY

This chapter outlined the theoretical framework for this study and how it is placed within a structure designed to enable an exploration of the potential of cross-community boxing for conflict transformation. Conflict transformation is explained along with contact theory and attitude change theory, which are important in identifying the components and conditions necessary for supporting the realisation of the potential of cross-community boxing.

The next chapter will concentrate on a review of the literature relevant to: boxing in Northern Ireland; Conflict Transformation literature in Northern Ireland; Sport for Development and Peace; Community Relations in Northern Ireland; and the reports commissioned on sectarianism in boxing in Northern Ireland.

Chapter 3

LITERATURE REVIEW

This chapter will review the available literature in a variety of areas that are relevant to this research project. These sections will have particular emphasis on: Boxing literature in Northern Ireland; Conflict Transformation literature in Northern Ireland; Sport for Development and Peace; Community Relations in Northern Ireland; and lastly review the reports commissioned on sectarianism in boxing in Northern Ireland.

BOXING LITERATURE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

There would appear to be a dearth of literature on boxing in Northern Ireland and most of what is available predates the Belfast Agreement 1998, (better known as the Good Friday Agreement). Given the changed circumstances emanating from this agreement, much of this literature may be out of date or, at least, eclipsed by the new circumstances.

In 2001, the Northern Ireland Assembly produced a research paper which provided a general overview on sectarianism and sport in Northern Ireland (NIA 2001). The paper noted that while there was wealth of distinguished research regarding the issue in Northern I, it tended to concentrate on the Gaelic Athletics Association (GAA) and the Irish Football Association (IFA), two of Northern Ieland’s largest sporting bodies. Given the date of this publication it is no surprise that most of the articles were based on data pre-1998. Nevertheless, the review mentions just two pieces of research that mention boxing. They are Sugden (1995) and Bairner (2000). Sugden is credited with having conducted a comprehensive examination of the historical development of boxing, as well as three team sports and to have explored their role in regards to community relations (Sugden 1995: 201-212). We will revert to Sugden again later in this chapter.

Bairner (2000:180) included boxing in a category of sport (along with soccer, athletics, and golf) that originated in Britian but are played universally and are no longer described as British sports. Unlike sports that he categorises as either being played predominantly by Protestants or Catholics in Northern Ireland, he states that sports in this category, which includes boxing, receive cross-community participation. Like the review (NIA 2001:1), he draws attention to the concentration of research on the two most popular sports to the

22 detriment of sports that have smaller participation and spectatorship, which boxing would fall into.

Bairner (2000) defer to Sugden on boxing when he states:

Boxing, despite being a violent sport, has a unifying impact upon Northern Ireland and appears to be the only working class sport which has avoided major sectarian divisions (Sugden 1995:210). Sugden suggests that this is because the sport is not associated with one specific cultural tradition. Boxing is also by its very nature an individualistic sport, boxers usually train alone and therefore there is very little exchange of sectarian views or values which could lead to conflict in the sport (Sugden 1995:210)……. However, that is not to say that boxing is completely free of sectarianism.(Sugden 1995:21).” (NIA 2001:5)

CONFLICT TRANSFORMATION LITERATURE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

The following three publications will be used, along with others, to flesh out the findings of this exploratory study. The first, by Sugden (1991), concentrated his research on the notion that creating a safe space, away from the conflict neighbourhood, was essential for the success of cross-community initiatives. This work involved a football program in the late 80’s, when tensions in Northern Ireland were much higher than they are now. It also involved a team sport rather than the singular nature of boxing. Nonetheless it is another approach to sport acting as a means of conflict transformation. Sugden’s program, ‘Belfast United’, aimed to “carefully and deliberately manipulate the conditions under which sport is played in an attempt to promote better understanding between selected groups of young Protestants and Catholics living in Belfast” (Sugden 1991: 59). We will see later how similar tactics were used by the coaches in both boxing clubs studied for this thesis.

A second work by Cronin’s (1997), is much more case specific and focuses on boxing as a form of conflict transformation in pre-Good Friday Agreement Ireland. He states how the “boxing community sees itself as having risen above the sectarian animosity that plagues other sports and that is a characteristic of everyday life in Northern Ireland” (Cronin 1997:139). Cronin’s work is more heavily based around the issues of nationalism come Olympic team selection time and so will informed discussion of some of the current tensions

23 around representation and boxing structures that are referred to in the finding section of this study.

The third publication is Hassan’s (2005) work on the life of Barry McGuigan, a world champion Catholic boxer from the Republic of Ireland, who married a Protestant woman from Northern Ireland and succeeded in uniting the nations during the fiercest times of ‘The Troubles’. He acknowledges the role of conflict transformation through regulated fighting in a boxing ring and the power that it can have. He places huge importance here on the fact that controlled violence under Queensberry rules4 create a unique environment. Furthermore, Hassan states how

“Teams of boxers and their supporters travel to and from each other’s clubs and arenas (of which there are approximately 30 in Belfast), free from the fear of molestation, to be warmly received and well treated, even though these venues are likely to be in the hearts of the most vehemently Nationalist or Loyalist neighbourhoods in the whole of Northern Ireland” (Hassan 2005:232).

SPORT FOR DEVELOPMENT AND PEACE

A study on a sport’s potential for conflict transformation would not be complete without a review of the literature on Sport Development and Peace. The following publications have been included here, as they are relevant for an understanding of some of the findings discussed below.

Giulianotti (2011) is one such person who analyses the sport, development and peace sector (SDP) and investigates the power of sport in these areas on a global scale for use by the likes the United Nations and NGOs. He looks at the concept on a large scale rather than on individual case studies. In his work, others state that “the SDP sector deploys sport as a socio- cultural tool to reduce social tensions and promote reconciliation and reconstruction, notably in post-conflict contexts (Sekulic´, Massey & Hodson 2006). Additionally, the SDP sector has endeavoured to counteract racism, intolerance and prejudice; to promote health education and gender equality; and to tackle crime and social exclusion” (Giulianotti 2011:208).

4 The Queensberry Rules are the structured boxing laws put in place to distinguish what is allowed and what is not allowed inside the confines of the boxing ring. It also governs the safety of the fighters and has mechanisms in place for both the referee and the coaches to end the fight if it is so required (Encyclopaedia 2017).

Giulianotti also develops three models to be implemented for successful and effective SDP which are ‘technical’5, ‘dialogical’6 and critical’7. Table A below shows these:

5 “The ‘technical’ SDP model is underpinned by a ‘realist’, positivistic, instrumental philosophy, which assumes that specific societies encounter ‘real’, objectively-identifiable social problems. In conflict situations, external agencies are understood as best placed to offer scientific, impartial analysis of problems, and to identify and implement problem-resolving strategies. The divided parties are understood as immersed in the problem, thereby lacking the training and detachment required to identify causes and solutions”(Giulianotti 2011: 215)

6 “The ‘dialogical’ SDP model is rooted in an interpretative, communicative philosophy. It understands conflicts as socially constructed, strained relationships between different communities that are marked by lack of social contact, trust, and effective mediation”(Giulianotti 2011: 218)

7 “The critical model features a highly reflexive, critical approach towards SDP work. The model pursues transformations in relationships between divided communities and in how SDP work is conducted. The underlying philosophy is that effective peacemaking emerges from long-term learning experiences among self- directed learners.” (Giulianotti 2011: 220)

Kidd (2008) analyses the social movement of SDP as a whole and identifies areas for improvement. He states that at the time of writing there were 166 organisations who were all working under the bracket of the ‘International Platform on Sport for Development’. These organisations are active in low and middle-income countries for humanitarian relief, sports development, social development, and finally for post-war reconciliation (such as in Northern Ireland). Kidd places particular importance with the governments for implementing such policies and huge increases in funding in essential. Furthermore, he does however call it “one of the most encouraging initiatives in sport”… and that his dream would be “an internationally accountable partnership, involving governments, sports federations and NGOs, recruiting, training and deploying volunteers and professional sports leaders on a coordinated basis to programmes of demonstrated need and priority” (Kidd 2008:278).

According to Levermore (2009) and Darnell (2010), it is important to understand that SDP works under a certain set of conditions that is intrinsically linked to neo-liberal economies. They say that unfortunately, sport for development and peace relies on power relations being imbalanced, and while good work may in fact be done, it can at times further strengthen the hierarchies present i.e. no direct effect on economic class of working class Unionists and Nationalists. Darnell in particular is pretty scathing in his belief that sport can aid economic development but believes that SDP should be used to “challenge the ideology of individual achievement that can be used to justify inequality” (Darnell 2010:71).

Particularly related to my work conducted in Belfast on boxing, May & Phelan (2005) are enthusiastic advocates of the work sport can do in many areas for creating social interest and investment in a number of areas. Some of these areas where improvement can come from sport are education and physical fitness; fair competition; improving cross-community relations even without the need for verbal exchanges; and moving across the societal, un- physical boundaries such as class and religion. Donnelly et al. (2011) agrees with this sentiment and whilst acknowledging that there is a certain risk in the making divisions worse, it is the hope that sport “will highlight human and cultural commonalities rather than differences” (Donnelly et al. 2011: 592). The authors do go on to conclude that greater work is needed in the area and they are an advocate for a public sociological perspective to SDP, especially in regards to research surrounding the subject i.e. “to make a difference” (Ibid: 599).

Beutler (2008) is a major advocate for SDP and calls sport an ‘innovative instrument’. She believes that sport “as an international language, can build bridges between people, help overcome cultural differences and spread an atmosphere of tolerance” (Beutler 2008: 359). She is of the opinion that sport can act as a complementary tool to more traditional forms of conflict transformation. Furthermore, the tools that sport teaches, such as leadership, discipline, inclusion, tolerance and respect, are invaluable in a post-conflict situation. In a recent paper by Sugden (2015), he outlines a more critical view than Beutler (2008). Although he believes in sport as a tool for peace and development, he is more for a case specific approach towards it. From his sociological perspective he states that one need to make “informed, realistic and pragmatic judgements…to be progressive, impactful and meaningful” (Sugden 2015: 609). He goes onto say that for sport to be effective one should not automatically make grand, naïve assumptions that sport will solve every issue, or that it is possible in every conflict.

Tuohey & Cognato (2011) also discuss sport in general as a tool for conflict transformation for youth around the world. In their work they analyse how sport can be used to heal deep ethnic, religious and social divides. They say that to be effective at this, key components must be addressed. These components are “local leadership; a balance between sport and educational content in programming; maintaining frequent, long-term integration; and structures for internal leadership development” (Tuohey & Cognato 2011:51). Kvalsund (2007) focuses on the exact areas in which sport can have a direct influence in peace- building, particularly in post-conflict states or those enduring a latent conflict. These areas include ‘security’, ‘the rebuilding of economies’, ‘the rebuilding of the mental health of traumatized populations’, ‘the political framework’, and ‘reconciling torn societies’ (Kvalsund 2007:8-9). Ross et.al. (2008) conducted research on a program carried out in Kyrgyzstan which focused on public and sports diplomacy with the aim of creating cross- community sporting events to tackle ethnic discrimination. During the youth recreational sports programs they also carried out youth leadership and development training, along with youth tolerance training, in an effort to address the issues from multiple angles and make the progress sustainable (Ross et.al. 2008: 4-7).

COMMUNITY RELATIONS IN NORTHERN IRELAND

The community relations industry in Northern Ireland has become a major player in recent years. In the purpose of this study, it can be interpreted that boxing clubs act as un-official community based organisation and as such it is important to understand the complexities surrounding the ‘industry’. Originally the issue of community relations was seen purely along inter-community lines by the British government which led to the formation of the ‘Community Relations Commission’, which was in all accounts an abject failure as it failed to address the complexities of community relations in Northern Ireland (Robson 2006: 68). There appeared to be a major failure to address the historical and cultural complexity which surrounded the conflict, and the lack of understanding of the motives of the communities was troubling. Nationalist politics has in the past been more united due to its revolutionary politics, whilst Unionist politics has been splintered over time (Gaffikin and Morrisey 1989: Ch.5). These viewpoints are echoed in the researcher’s interviews with Joe Campbell (Interview 1 2017) and Terry McCorran (Interview 2 2017) who both tie Nationalism, in Northern Ireland, with ideology and Unionism with every day criminality. This in itself can be seen as simplistic and reports done by Devine et.al & Morrow et. al., (2011, 2013) into demographics in the North illustrate this. As a practitioner, understanding these complexities is crucial when analysing whether there is potential, or mistakes being made, toward conflict transformation.

One of the key findings in community relations was that perceptions towards ‘the other’ were more favourable in youth and the Catholic community in Northern Ireland. It was also discovered that Catholics are more encouraged about the potential for better community relations over a shorter time period than their Protestant counterparts (Devine et.al. 2011). It was also found in a later study that community relations in Northern Ireland is a particularly delicate process that can be quickly undone by “political and social turmoil” (Morrow et.al 2013). By this understanding, the current political situation in Northern Ireland is not ideal for cross-community work as the Assembly remains collapsed.

As of 2006, it was estimated that there were 5,500 community-based organisations in the territory. This in itself is one organisation for every 309 citizens of Northern Ireland which is an extremely large number. The sector has become so large that at the time it had an income of £514 million and had close to 35,000 paid employees hired (Robson 2006: 68). Although there has been this development of community relations, it is still heavily linked to

28 reconciliation which to some remains a “dirty word” and the majority have reservations about (McEvoy et.al 2006: 81, 82, 84). In the Nationalist community, the terms of community relations and reconciliation are inseparable. They view state money and state efforts as a way of hiding the role of the British in the conflict. In Unionist circles, they often view community relations and reconciliation as a way to alienate hard-core Loyalist goals and portray these goals as impediments for peace on the island (ibid 2006: 98). When looking at boxing and it’s potential for increased cross-community relations, it is important to understand why there may be backlash towards steps the clubs are taking towards integration.

REPORTS ON BOXING IN NORTHERN IRELAND

In the years since 2010, there have been two reports written up following on from the report by Sandy Row Amateur Boxing Club (SRABC) ‘Northern Ireland Amateur Boxing: A Decade of Sectarian and Racial Abuse'. In September 2012, the Northern Ireland Assembly conducted the ‘Hansard Report’ which aimed to allow the vice-chairman and secretary of SRABC to air their grievances in front of a government committee. SRABC documented sectarian abuse stemming over numerous incidents over the ten years previous to the report. They alleged that this abuse ranged from verbal abuse, to bottle throwing, to being denied entry to clubs. It was also claimed that the response, or lack thereof, from the County Antrim Board, the Ulster Boxing Council, and the Irish Athletic Boxing Association (IABA) were unacceptable. The SRABC representatives made the point that under the Good Friday Agreement; all citizens of Northern Ireland are to be treated with equality and with equal representation (Hansard 2012: 1-3). The Hansard Report also acknowledged the claims that other clubs, particularly in Unionist communities, had received a similar level of abuse and was afraid to come forward, so as to not be ostracised by the IABA. SRABC did make it clear to the Committee that they did not believe the clubs were the perpetrators but that the paying public were the main culprits. During the report SRABC called for “The removal of those who have governed boxing in Northern Ireland over the last decade”, it called on the Executive to “acknowledge the seriousness of this issue which has for so long been ignored and ... to seize this issue and respond appropriately to it”, a review into refereeing, and the establishment of a Northern Irish Boxing Association (Ibid : 7,9, 14).

Following on from the Hansard Report, the IABA agreed to commission an Independent Working Group Report examining boxing in Northern Ireland, which concluded in December

2013. The report established that many of the problems experienced by SRABC were a result of societal division in Northern Ireland and were not a poor reflection on the boxing clubs in Belfast. Where the issues arose is that the IABA, the Ulster Boxing Council, and the County Antrim Board had failed to accept embedded sectarianism in the way that the Irish Football Association and the Gaelic Athletic Association had, and in turn have not dealt with it sufficiently.The Independent Working Group also concluded that a separate breakaway boxing association, the Northern Irish Boxing Association, was not the answer to the difficulties as it would only enhance the ‘us versus them’ narrative. A meeting of the parties involved to establish a workable alternative was highly recommended for future development (IWG 2013: 27). A list of twelve recommendations was also provided which are particularly relevant to this research. Due to their length, these have been reproduced in full in Appendix A.

SUMMARY

In this study, it is hoped that the above literature will inform the reader that it is important to understand and be aware of other lessons being learned and implemented by the boxers behind the scenes, intentionally or otherwise. As we can see with the likes of Tuohey and Cognato, there is recognition that the likes of educational training and leadership can be important as a supplement along with the boxing contact.

As is seen by a lot of the work on sport for development and peace (SDP), the results of the work have generally been positive in the most part and it is viewed as a highly valuable tool for conflict transformation and peace-building.

Nevertheless, cross-community boxing in Belfast is a sport that is an easy and relatively cost effective means of promoting peace, development, and integration through interaction. The idea of sport for development and peace is one that has begun to be studied mainly in the years following the creation of the Millennium Development Goals in 2000 (2005).

Chapter 4

RESEARCH DESIGN & METHODOLOGY

OVERALL GOAL

The goal of this research paper was to examine whether or not there is potential for cross- community boxing to act as a supplementary form of conflict transformation for working class youth in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Within this it will be seen as to whether contact can bring about a change in attitudes for those on both sides of the ‘conflict’. Due to the seemingly violent nature and the social make-up of the sport, “80% of boxers were from a working-class background, all of whom were male and under the age of 25… [of which] 40% of boxers were Protestant, while the remainder were Catholic” (Cronin 1997), it appears as though it could be a route out of extreme sectarian tendencies for those who are most vulnerable. Boxing, in the researchers’ opinion, is a sport that teaches respect, discipline, healthy competition and routine. It is also offers a means of channelling built-up anger and life frustrations into a structured form of conflict. In Belfast, settings in which these traditionally opposing communities come together are rare. Boxing is one method of these sub-groups coming into physical contact. The goal was to see the result of bringing young men and women, from the hard-core of the Nationalist and Unionist communities, together in respected interaction, i.e. boxing. As such, it was imperative to interview and speak with coaches and boxers from these clubs. Given the time constraints it was the researcher’s decision that focusing on two clubs would enable relationships to build and to gain a greater understanding of the ins and outs of the boxing world in Belfast.

METHODS AND DATA

The methodology in this research paper will be a mixed methods approach. The data was collected using a combination of literature review (Hart 1998), participant observation, and semi-structured interviews. The review not only provides a theoretical context for the study but also provide complementary data from related research for the purpose of comparative analysis. The comparative analysis will be comparing the previously written data from desk research with what is found in the field. Participant observation will help in this triangulation.

In this course of the research one boxing club was visited from each of the Nationalist and Unionist sides of the divide in Belfast. Here, coaches and the boxers were met to hear about the effect boxing is having on their lives and what can be done in the future to improve the sport and its potential for cross-community relations. It was imperative to try and gain a true understanding of what it is like to grow up in the working class areas of the city and see whether a lot of the cultural, structural and direct violence (Galtung 1969, 1990) they have grown up with has had a lasting effect. Hearing from the young boxers involved themselves about whether or not their attitudes and perceptions towards the other side have changed, and if they have, how boxing has played a role in this change. How has this potential change manifested itself is another critical element that will be crucial to understand.

Why use this specific mixed method approach? A mixed method approach is essential to this study given it is an arguably complex subject in a city with highly varying attitudes towards peace and reconciliation. This mixed method approach allows the people themselves to tell their attitudes, their stories and their hopes for the future. This approach also allows the researcher to see, first-hand, the impact that boxing is having on the lives of working class youth who are potentially at-risk8 to criminality and paramilitaries in Belfast. An aspect of this work was also to see if boxing, while slightly niche at the moment, can be grown and used as an alternative tool for cross-community integration and conflict transformation. Participant observation is an extremely valuable option in this area as it allows the researcher to analyse the true interactions on the ground and see if the espoused theory9 and the theory- in-use10 (Argyris & Schön 1974) are indeed matching up in the cross-community, boxing community. Essentially, does the front-stage behaviour, match the back-stage behaviour (Goffman 1956).

8 The phrase ‘at-risk youth’ describes “young people whose potential for becoming responsible and productive adults is limited by challenges within the ecology of their lives. These include problems at home, in schools and in communities” (McWhirter et. al. 2013: xiii).

9 “The world view and values people believe their behaviour is based on.”. During interviewing an interviewee may give answers that are deemed acceptable by the interviewer or the outside world. (Argyris & Schon 1974)

10 “The world view and values implied by their behaviour, or the maps they use to take action” Participant observation allows the interviewer to see the interviewee in their role and see does their behaviour match their answers. (Argyris & Schon 1974)

Semi- Structured Interviewing

Semi-structured interviews are an essential element of this research and for this research it is favourable to structured interviews as it allows the people to relax in an unnatural socially constructed setting. Bryman’s (2012) guidelines on interviewing would be a useful tool for preparing for these interviews. Originally the purpose of these interviews was to ask the participants: 1. What, if anything, do they say that changes in the ring with their own attitudes, perceptions and feelings towards the other? (Descriptive aspect) 2. How do they think this is happening/ what enables this change to happen? (Reflective aspect) 3. Why they think this should or should not be happening? (Normative aspect)

Due to previous real-life experience the researcher has identified a technique of framing the ‘interviews’ as ‘conversations’. It is the hope that by utilizing this tool that people are more willing to open up with valuable insights once they are at ease. This has proven successful previously for the researcher (Hanrahan 2014). There is also the issue that if the researcher is aiming to measure effectiveness that it can be an arduous task that is open to interpretation. Due to this difficulty, the researcher planned to avoid ‘effectiveness’ and focus on the actual examples that are provided by the boxers and coaches. One method that got around this issue was to ask the interviewees for concrete examples, or stories, of how attitudes have changed towards the other. Unfortunately, due to issues surrounding identity and its lack of discussion inside the confines of the club, conducting formal interviews around this topic with boxers wasn’t possible. Informal semi-structured interviews and informal conversations became the main source of information from the boxers while the formal setting was saved for the coaches.

Participant Observation

Participant observation is another type of data collection used mainly in qualitative research. It emerged as the principal approach in ethnographic research by anthropologists, but has become popular in other disciplines such as sociology. Because ethnography is a research technique designed to explore cultural events or lifestyles where the researcher observes people from the point of view of the subject of the study, it, and participant observation as a data collection method, are particularly relevant to the study of the behaviour of groups that can share a strong sense of identity. In Northern Ireland, identity is without doubt one of the major elements in the prolonging of the conflict as there has always been the split of ‘Nationalist’ versus ‘Unionist’, ‘Catholic’ versus ‘Protestant’, and ‘Republican’ versus ‘Loyalist’.

Participant observation is especially useful for studying groups where only by being part of the group can one really experience what it means to be a part of the group. Whilst conducting the research it became important to go to the midweek training sessions with them and to meet the boxers on a personal basis. While taking a step back and watching from afar can be valuable, it only shows you one side. However, this means developing personal relationships with subjects in order to learn from them. This involves trust, honesty, objectivity, and all the ethical dilemmas that this entails. These ethical dilemmas may include whether or not to publish an individual’s very personal story under a different name or whether to keep it out altogether. This was decided on a case by case basis by asking the participant.

According to Howell (1972) the first stage of participant research is to get to know the subjects. He states that it is important to be accepted in order to obtain quality data. The researcher in this case needed to become a trusted observer surrounding the boxing community events/bouts and attempt to relinquish the title of outsider. One way this was achieved was by creating a network from natural introductions to the subjects and becoming accepted by them as a bona fide boxing fan and someone who was genuinely interested in learning about the sport and its intricacies. The ethics of this are discussed below.

This acceptance will hopefully decide on the type of participant observation to employ. Spradley (1980) is one who outlines different types of participant observation depending on

34 the depth of immersion of the researcher in the activities of the subjects. These are, non- participatory, passive participation, moderate participation, active participation and complete participation. Moderate participation is when the researcher maintains a balance between ‘insider’ and outsider’ roles. This allows for a good balance of involvement and detachment in order to remain objective. Active participation is when the researcher becomes a member of the group by fully embracing skills and customs for the sake of complete comprehension. This allows the researcher to become more involved. In this case, it was decided to become an active participant in the setting up of the training sessions, whilst taking a step back to observant during the competitions such as the Boys National Championships in Dublin.

During the time of the research it was hoped that one will have access to naturalistic observation (Kendra 2011) where the subjects are observed in their natural environment without any manipulation by the researcher. This was certainly the case during competition time when the author was part of a large group of spectators. Green & Thorogood (2004) discuss the different approaches to participant observation in their work and show that it is not always one size fits all. They place particular importance in reading the situation and surrounding and acting accordingly in order to gain the true information. This should make the findings more credible but there is the ethical question of violating the privacy of the observed subjects. Practically, this was something was kept in mind when conducting the research to avoid acting naively in a city that still bears the recent scars of a violent conflict.

The participant observation entailed attending numerous cross-community boxing matches and training sessions. The hope was to triangulate the insights gained through the interviews and conversations by observing the behaviour of the subjects in their own [i.e. boxing] environment. There was very much a need to see and hear the people inside the arena especially due to the fact that the author was told by the coaches that the spectators are the most troublesome aspect of the events. What was being said? What was being shouted by whom and to whom? Was there much comradery from the boxers after the bouts take place? Was there much interaction between the different boxing clubs attending? Was there Irish or British flags being flown or hung up there? What was the atmosphere like? These were some of the questions that were asked of oneself when attending the competitions and boxing clubs. The visuals on display were also extremely important to analyse and the symbolism/meaning behind them.

ETHICAL ISSUES

According to McKenzie (2009), the prevailing culture within the field of sociology tends to view covert research as far more unethical than overt studies. He cites studies however that supports this “prevailing culture”, once the research is not harmful to the subjects (Bulmer 1982; Warwick 1982 and Shils 1982). He goes on to state that the ethical status of the participant observer role should be governed more by the specifics of the research situation under study. He specifically singles out ethnographic research where the main method of collecting data is participant observation. Quoting from Brewer (2000) he describes various methods of participant observation, similarly to Spradley (1980) one of which is “covert, full participation”, (Brewer 2000:84). This places a huge responsibility on the researcher to take account of research ethics especially protecting the rights and integrity of subjects (Bulmer 1982:3). It also raises the issue of the researcher’s presence affecting the behaviour of the subjects, the principle of informed consent etc.

As regards consent, it is not possible to get informed consent from everyone at a public event such as a boxing event. In addition to this, Fielding (1993: 159) points out that any ‘ethnographic’ research will involve some covertness because of the difficulties (including personal risk) in revealing one’s identity to all subjects at all times. According to McKenzie (2009), in a discussion of research ethics in Denzin and Erikson, (1982) it is argued that the withholding of information can be justified when the presence of the researcher is not harmful to the subjects and their identity is completely concealed and when the research doesn’t intentionally damage the credibility or reputation of the subjects.

Gaining informed consent from subjects is central to ethical research practice (Wiles et al. 2007). The Social Research Association (SRA) defines informed consent as “a procedure for ensuring that research participants understand what is being done to them, the limits of their participation and awareness of any potential risks they incur” (SRA 2003:28 cited in Wiles et al. 2007).

Consent is especially important when the subjects are vulnerable people. Scraton takes the view that disregarding with consent in some contexts is appropriate in the public interest. He gives examples of research that exposes football hooligans, neo-Nazi groups and corporate activities (Scraton 2004). However such deceptive reasons for covert research risk bringing research into disrepute, when there are more practical reasons for withholding of information such as the safety of the researcher and the impracticality of obtaining mass consent. Such

36 practical and safety needs would appear, to this researcher, to be more genuine or ‘ethics- friendly’, especially when balanced with protecting the rights and integrity of subjects (Bulmer 1982:3). Protecting the rights and integrity of the subjects is paramount and as such verbal consent was sought before publishing any remarks made, either formally or informally. Consequently, the participant observation research will not identify specific individuals in this report and other’s names have been withdrawn, e.g. the senior figure in the IABA.

In the case of the semi-structured interviews however it is essential that informed consent is sought. For this, it will be made sure that the participants have “full understanding of the potential risks and benefits” (Wood 2006:379) of partaking in the study, if there is indeed any. Verbal consent was sought before any data was used in this research and it was the responsibility of the researcher to reiterate the position of the researcher and the interviewee on a consistent basis in order for no confusion of ethical mishaps to take place.

REFLEXIVITY & LIMITATIONS

Reflexivity

Reflexivity was an area in which the researcher was particularly aware of during the field research. During the time in the Unionist community, it was important to be aware that there will have been some who may have grown up with an unwillingness to speak to, or with a deep mistrust of, men with an Irish accent. This was where it was essential to be upfront about the work that was being done and to show that one was particularly interested in learning about boxing in the area. The author is also in the unique position of being a Church of Ireland Protestant from the south of Ireland so this was extremely helpful when navigating the tough political and religious terrain of Belfast. It was most certainly an advantage in appealing to both communities in the North. When being from the island of Ireland, and especially the Republic of Ireland, it is important to be fully aware of the preconceived ideas and biases related to the conflict which are impossible to ignore. These had to be taken into account when reflecting on the work and behaviour in the field. During the study, personal political beliefs had to be subdued in order to not affect the relations and impartiality with the interviewees. It was also imperative to reflect on how they saw a man with an Irish accent and does this have any insight into the success of the boxing as a tool for conflict

37 transformation. Informally conversing with the boxers and public and asking their personal opinions on my presence was valuable for achieving this. The most valuable information received in regards to this was the first reactions of the boxers when the researcher was introduced and announced where one had come from, i.e. the Republic of Ireland.

Furthermore, it was vital to break down each characteristic of one’s personality and make-up to be prepared to respond to potentially difficult situations. As mentioned above, nationality and religious persuasion was one element of it, but other aspects such as an having an Irish accent, an Irish name, being from middle class background, being a Masters university student, a researcher and being an outsider all had to be taken into account. All of these traits can come with preconceived ideas from the subjects and can affect how one is perceived by them.

Limitations

The limitations for this research will be discussed later in the ‘Recommendations for Future Research’ section of the paper but there were a few practical limitations to the work from the outset. The researcher conducted the field research a one month time period and as such full immersion was unrealistic if impossible. The time constraints also affected the ability to form sustainable relationships with the subjects due to natural scepticism shown towards a new researcher that is present in the club. The short period of field research meant that it was difficult to understand the norms of the club, and made it extremely tough in the planning stage. An example of this was the fact that the both clubs they refused, in some part, to allow discussions on identity. The boxers themselves had no interest in discussing a topic which is a taboo on a day-to-day basis within the club. This meant that the original plans of interviewing boxers, formally, on identity and how attitudes change towards ‘the other’ had to be put on the back burner. It became evident that the research would become reliant on the interviewing of the coaches, informal conversations with the boxers, and participant observation to reach conclusions. Another limitation to the research was the fact that the author was never fully part of the group. Although it was possible to get involved in training, the tag of ‘outsider’ was never truly lost. If the research was conducted over a longer time period and one was able to join the boxing club as a member, results may have been more accurate or at least more definitive.

DURATION AND TIMING OF RESEARCH

The field research took place between the 25th March and the 26th April 2017. The researcher was based is his home town, Drogheda, half way between Dublin and Belfast in order to conduct field research over this month long period. This journey is a one hour and twenty minute drive to Belfast and so was ideal for the research. Accommodation was also given in Belfast for whenever it was needed, i.e. early morning/late night interviews and participant observation. Between the 25th March and 26th April multiple semi-structures interviews were conducted along with numerous participant observation sessions. The interview process began with meeting esteemed mediator and conflict transformation specialist, Joe Campbell, in order to gain a well-rounded understanding of the city and its inner politics. Following on from that, Terry McCorran and his club, the City of Belfast Boxing Academy (CBBA), became the prime subject of the ‘Unionist’ side of the study. The ‘Nationalist’ side to the study was taken by Patsy McAllister and Jimmy McGrath and their club Oliver Plunkett’s ABC Boxing Club (OPBC). The boxing clubs chosen were to be selected from traditionally working class, antagonistic communities in which identity is prevalent and celebrated. OPBC is based in a traditionally Nationalist area in West Belfast while the CBBA is based in a traditionally Unionist area in East Belfast.

The remainder of the analysis took place between 1st May and the 30th June and as such is at a time where the political situation in Northern Ireland has changed dramatically. At present there is no parliament actively sitting following a failure to agree on power-sharing post- election. The Irish Athletic Boxing Association is also currently going through a number of scandals in the media in regards to funds and leadership. This is an ongoing news story and so certain details will not be included unless they can be verified and confirmed. These details are slowly coming out and so this may be not be possible at all times.

Chapter 5

FINDINGS

“They believe the other side are doing better and that is an important belief.”

(Joe Campbell, Interview 1, 2017)

INTRODUCTION

An understanding of the factors that influence the potential of cross community boxing (CCB) to contribute to conflict transformation is important if CCB is to be considered as a channel for conflict transformation.

The literature would suggest that boxing in Northern Ireland, based on its historical success role as a unifying sport, has the potential for conflict transformation in the current post- conflict society. This suggestion was examined using contact theory and attitude change theory and analysed using a format designed to elicit findings that answer the research questions outlined in Chapter 1. These findings, grouped under three main themes of identity, geographical structure and the structure of boxing on the island of Ireland, are outlined in this chapter before being discussed in Chapter 6.

IDENTITY

Each of the two boxing clubs sampled for this study were chosen because they are located on opposite sides of the Unionist and Nationalist community divide in Belfast where each community has its own separate and conflicting identity. As boxing is a sport that involves controlled violence/conflict, it is to be expected that identity will play a major role in the rivalry between clubs and their boxers. Contact theory (Allport, 1954; Amir, 1969; Lederach, 2003) would suggest that putting boxers with opposing identities together, under shared competition rules, would be an available avenue for increased integration and, potentially, conflict transformation. During the course of the research it soon became fairly evident that

40 this was not indeed the case at present, due to a number of factors, including a ban on discussing identity.

Identity

The study found that identity was a more complex issue than expected. An important finding was that identity was never openly spoken about inside each of the boxing clubs. The reason for this was that both Terry McCorran, the founder and Head Coach in the City of Belfast Boxing Academy, and Patsy McAllister founder/coach with Jimmy McGrath, Coach at St. Oliver Plunkett’s Boxing Club, enact policies that prohibit the expression of personal beliefs in regards to identity within the confines of their respective clubs. Such policies are not exclusive to boxing. In a scheduled interview with Joe Campbell (Conflict transformation Expert and mediator during the Troubles) he recalled:

“I worked in a ship yard that was seen as a Protestant enclave, and I suppose it was, but I made some great friends with Catholic guys who worked there … the trade unions tried to bring people together and cross the divide and in many ways they held the work places together in some ways… Although you weren’t allowed to talk about politics and you weren’t allowed to talk about sport.” (Joe Campbell, Interview 1, 2017)

In both clubs, boxers are told that religious/political community-beliefs are unwelcome within the club.

“‘You leave your politics and your religion at the gate and if you want to pick it up on the way out that’s entirely up to you!’” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

This results in boxers in both clubs being unwilling to speak about identity issues in any formal capacity, even to the researcher. However, informal ‘small talk’ did illicit some data. Representatives from both OPBC and CBBA said that they set these rules in the belief that it would encourage young men and women from all walks of life to join the club. The study found that CBBA appeared to be enforcing this rule to a strict letter of the law. The researcher did not hear or see anyone discussing their identity or wearing symbolic attire. In contrast to this finding he did notice that some boxers in OPBC wearing sporting attire that could be seen as expressions of their identity.

“You know, people will walk in here on their first night and they’ll have their Rangers shirt on, or a Celtic shirt, or a Man United shirt, or whatever. So I normally say to them, ‘excuse me do you mind taking that off and I’ll give you a t-shirt? It’s in our rules we don’t allow any colours.’” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

“But these kids, individual kids now, you can’t blame the clubs, starting to wear green, white and gold… (J:) we have our club colours and that’s what we wear all the time, we won’t let our kids wear that.” (Patsy McAllister + Jimmy McGrath, Interview 3, 2017)

Imagery

Another area associated with identity is the display of imagery inside both boxing clubs. Imagery, in this context, relates primarily to the pallet of colours used in the boxing clubs, the flags being displayed and the pictures on the walls.

The study found that there was a marked difference in the display and amount of imagery used in each club. This was particularly obvious on entering the clubs for the first time. In OPBC there were quite a lot of green white and gold tricolours on display in various locations surrounding the ring. This is the national flag of the Republic of Ireland and the flag favoured by Nationalists over the Union Jack. While there were also a number of flags from other countries around the world, there was no Union Jack, a flag which is not acceptable to Nationalists, under any circumstances.

We’re trying to get all flags, we have all flags of the world up out there … (J:) we even have English things [Laughs] (Patsy McAllister + Jimmy McGrath, Interview 3, 2017)

In contrast to the display in OPBC, there was almost a complete absence of flags inside the grounds and premises of the CBBA. This contrasted with the displays on approach roads, adjacent streets and houses in the immediate vicinity of the club. There was only two flags observed in the club.

“They call this a Loyalist club, but there are only two flags you’ll see in here, one’s the Olympic flag … the other is of Katie Taylor holding the Irish Tri-colour [in a photograph]” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

During the interview, McCorran was very quick to stress this absence of flags and he was very aware of the symbolism of the Taylor flag in his club.

Another source of imagery in this club was the many photographs of boxers representing both the club, and also the whole island of Ireland at under-age. McCorran expressed pride about this and appeared to use his coaching of young, and female, Irish boxing representatives, as an example of his non-sectarian approach, while admitting that sectarian accusations had been brought against him in the past. There were also photographs of boxers from the club

42 who had represented Ireland on the world stage and those who had gone on to become professional. The photographs on the walls in the OPBC appeared to be there to celebrate the member’s pride in their history and their boxers success while representing Ireland on the world stage as well as those who have gone on to become professional. Three of these active Irish professional boxers, Tyrone McKenna, Tommy McCarthy, and Anthony Cacace were observed at the club sparring and training alongside youngsters one evening. Their connection to the club is still close and they were at the club sparring and training alongside youngsters one evening.

While the decor of the OPBC was observed to be neutral (for example the external walls were brick and the internal walls were all painted white), the CBBA incorporated some blue into their outside furnishings and blue dominated the interior walls along with some white and red. While these are the colours of the Union Jack they are also the traditional colours used in boxing. This appears to allow CBBA to have their club painted in these colours, and their boxers to wear these colours without criticism.

Suspicion

The study also found that there is a deep mistrust and suspicion between the clubs that is reflected in the attitudes of the two clubs towards one another. During the researcher’s time in Belfast he became aware that there is a deep mistrust of each other, from both sides of the historical divide.

“Below the surface there’s still a very sectarian feeling and part of that is coming out of a lot of hurt… Ceasefires and peace agreements are one thing but putting it into practice is another when you have hostile communities that don’t want to give an inch on either side and that’s a challenge…it is a transformed city but its got a long way to go.” (Joe Campbell, Interview 1, 2017)

This is being reflected in the attitudes of the boxing clubs towards one another and other unnamed officials. Both clubs suspect each other of having ulterior agendas.

“I will say that there are certain people, in certain clubs, who have agenda to keep everybody apart.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

“They’ve got a different agenda from a lot of the other people. And listen we’re boxing clubs, there’s a line of decency among everyone.” (Jimmy McGrath, Interview 3, 2017)

While this most likely stems from the identity divide that remains in this latent conflict, it appears to create, among other things, a miscommunication of their views, their ‘strategic

43 decisions’, and the intentions of each club. The study found, for example, that there were two particular issues (integration and representation) that were viewed in two completely different ways by both CBBA, the OPBC and or the communities that they represent.

Integration as a ploy?

The first issue of contention revolved around perceived steps that CBBA were supposedly taking in order to encourage integration of Catholic boxers, those from traditionally Catholic neighbourhoods, those from other faiths, and young female fighters into their club. This was viewed, from the Nationalist Community, as a ploy by CBBA, and McCorran in particular, to gain media attention, increased government funding, and awards.

“He got a lot of grants to do what he said he wanted to do. Knock a hole in the wall and bring the Catholics in, you know.” (Patsy McAllister, Interview 3, 2017)

This viewpoint was only hardened by media features by the BBC and the Belfast Telegraph, by increased funding for renovations of the boxing club, and all whilst McCorran received awards such as the ‘Mark Pollock Award for Hope’ in 2013 and the ‘Spirit of Sport Award’ for 2016. These were all claims that were dismissed by McCorran who maintains that he only has his best intentions at heart and is striving for increased inclusion. His claim is supported by this study which found that there was a sizable contingent of young Muslim girls present at all the observed training sessions.

“I have thirteen different nationalities in this club … and there’s no aggravation. I have Muslim girls who are the first Muslim girls to box in Northern Ireland. They boxed for me not long ago and they wore their wee Hajib, they had their headgear on the top, and their dad brings them down regularly, and there’s six of them that come down here.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

As regards using media opportunities to obtain funding, McCorran admitted to the researcher that he used his award, and place on stage at the 2016 ceremony as an opportunity to put the First Ministers of Northern Ireland on the spot.

“I see the First Minister and Deputy First Minister so maybe you can maybe pull a few strings while you are sitting here having a wee laugh and drink together. Maybe you can get me my grant for the young people to get this club sorted out.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

He also claims that he was unaware of any efforts to be selected for awards

“I’ll be honest, I went along to the Sunday Life Awards and I got nominated by some of the parents and the children in here. I got a phone call from the girl saying ‘I’m from the Sunday Life’ … so I went

along on the night [becomes emotional]. I wasn’t even going to go because we weren’t told up until the night whether we’d won or not …” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

The lack of dialogue between the clubs and ingrained mistrust from the conflict in Northern Ireland allow these series of decisions and events to poison relationships and prevent increased integration and cross-community boxing bouts.

Representative rights or Sectarian manoeuvring?

The second issue that arose through this mistrust was related entirely to identity. This issue is that in 2012, the CBBA joined a splinter group of Unionist boxing clubs, started by Sandy Row Boxing Club, which itself left the all-Ireland Irish Athletic Boxing Association (IABA) in 2010. Subsequently, Sandy Row Boxing Club called for an independent commission on sectarianism in the sport of boxing in Northern Ireland. This resulted in a commission report in 2013.

Some clubs have since re-joined the IABA. However CBBA is not one of them and this has increased suspicion from those in Nationalist communities. For example, the OPBC believes that the CBBA’s decision to remain outside of the IABA, was purely a sectarian one, (especially after the report was carried out), and that the CBBA was taking a stance of not wanting to engage with Nationalist clubs in Belfast.

“One of the things that I was sort of put off by right away, why did they not ask me to come to their meeting? Why did they not ask us did we want to become part of it? Nobody said to me do I want to become part of it… so when we weren’t invited, to me there was a difference made in boxing. It was purely sectarian!” (Jimmy McGrath, Interview 3, 2017)

When interviewed for this study, McCorran disputed these claims and maintained that nobody had ever spoken to him about this.

“There was a lot of people that said it was sectarian because I left, and I said, ‘no-one has come to speak to me and asked me why I left the IABA’. The IABA haven’t even asked why I left. That’s how much they care.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

He maintains that he is disillusioned with the IABA due to the fact that his boxers cannot represent the UK or Northern Ireland at an international level and are forced to represent Ireland, even though they may not identity with the Republic of Ireland. He insists that a Northern Irish Boxing Association is needed to resolve this issue and that he harbours no ill

45 feelings towards the Nationalist boxing community in Belfast. It is his wish that people could be able to sit down, sort out issues and move on.

The data obtained for this study would suggest that while some clubs, including CBBA, left the IABA because of ‘identity’ issues and perceived sectarianism, a proportion of these have stayed away because of tension around structural issues to do with ‘representation’ at national and international competition.

“What we’re trying to do now is start the Northern Irish Boxing Association. It started, a few clubs joined, and what we are trying to do is bring equality right across the board, because it’s not there.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

This tension is addressed in a separate sub-theme, below, entitled ‘Breakaway Clubs’.

A welcome coming together

OPBC told a story about when they invited Terry and his club, CBBA, over for a show in their club. They recall the night as a positive event but they now seem disappointed by what happened afterwards.

“We brought Terry, when he just started, we brought him up to our club for one of our clubs shows and it’s the only time. And we had a few of his boxers boxing in there. Brilliant, nothing said, everybody happy with it. So then we returned some of our boxers up to their show in Stormont. So we had put out the arms of friendship out as a welcome to come in here, which we do with every club. But I don’t see them now at all.” (Jimmy McGrath, Interview 3, 2017)

McCorran also recalls the story in which his club travelled over to OPBC in the heart of the Nationalist stronghold. Although he did admit to feeling slightly uneasy due to the paramilitary murals, he said that he was more than surprised by the welcome that his club received.

“I’m really glad to hear that Oliver Plunkett were so positive, you know I am really glad because I did work with them. But we went up and I have to be honest and where we went into box was a bit, you know [uneasy], hunger strikes stuff on the walls, but emm they did turn around and say ‘folks I want you to give these guys a welcome as they’ve come from East Belfast to box tonight’, and we had a standing ovation… unfortunately it wasn’t long after this that all the crap started, but they weren’t involved in any of it. I honestly can’t say one bad word about them.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

It was obvious to the researcher that this moment is something that he will never forget. This was a great example of what happens when the clubs come together, without the mistrust based in their differing backgrounds.

Although the study set out to examine boxing within a Nationalist Unionist divide, it also found that boxing and, in particular, these two clubs, had to contend with two other divisions, specifically a country v suburban/rural divide and intra-community divisions.

Urban versus Rural

Regarding the city v suburban/rural divide, contact with IABA sources and a female boxer in the CBBA would suggest that this exists between many of the Belfast city clubs and those in the outskirts and rural areas surrounding the city. There was some suggestion that this was also an all-Ireland experience. One example which illustrates this is the effort to get young girls and women involved in boxing in Northern Ireland.

Both OPBC and CBBA in Belfast city have made conscious efforts to attract female boxers into their clubs by putting in the relevant facilities for the boxers including toilets and changing rooms. There has been varying success here but there is an active effort being made.

According to OPBC:

“We don’t encourage it enough actually to tell you the truth… (J: ) historically it’s always been a male dominated sport. We had two girls here a couple of years ago and one of them left, and as soon as one left the other one left. And what’s needed is a whole funding and transformation program that is needed.” (Patsy McAllister + Jimmy McGrath, Interview 3, 2017)

Terry in CBBA is more sceptical of efforts to integrate women into boxing in Northern Ireland:

“A lot of them don’t want them, they just don’t want them. They don’t want the hassle, they say they don’t have the changing facilities, they don’t have the toilets. I mean you can just put a lock on the doors so when someone goes in…there’s ways around it … Wherever they live, I’ll let them know where their nearest club is and they’re welcome to go along there. If they won’t take them, and they’re happy to travel here, we’ll take you!” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017) As part of his contact with boxers, the author discovered, from speaking to a female boxer in CBBA, that she had joined the club not only due to its welcoming nature, but also due to the fact that another boxing club had turned her away because, she said, they didn’t allow female fighters in the club. This club was the Midland Boxing Club situated on the Northern outskirts of Belfast. What is significant about this comment is that this club claimed to be making efforts to include females and had received a grant for this purpose of £200,000 in August 2016, from the then Sports Minister Paul Givan (McStravick 2016).

In a separate telephone interview, a high ranking IABA source also informed the author that grants and other funding are often given by Democratic Unionist Party Ministers to boxing clubs in rural areas that are generally “Unionist strongholds” and not necessarily to those attempting an integration process.

Intra-community divisions

Regarding the intra-community divide, this can come about from, for example, the influence of paramilitary organisations and the presence of other competing sports. OPBC face a struggle in their own community with keeping their boxers and attracting new ones.

Gaelic football, a game indigenous to Ireland and played throughout every corner of the island is the most popular male team sport on the island and is increasingly popular among young girls. It is the main sport played in nationalist communities in Northern Ireland. These Gaelic Football clubs are a cornerstone of Nationalist communities in Belfast and are viewed by OPBC as a major reason why young men, and especially young women, are less likely to attend boxing clubs in these communities.

“You see Gaelic has a great system (J: ) they got the support base there, whereas it’s me and Patsy and we’re down here, and we have to work…” (Patsy McAllister + Jimmy McGrath, Interview 3, 2017)

This has implications for the development of a new identity in the youth of the area.

CBBA on the other hand, say that they too have more conflicts within their own community with it being described to the author as “50 shades of orange”. However, when it comes to integration, and cross community integration in particular, they cite pressure from paramilitaries as the main obstacle frustrating their efforts.

“I’ve been threatened by paramilitaries, Loyalist paramilitaries, because of the cross-community work. It’s all been sorted out now and I’ve been left alone but in boxing terms I was being called a ‘Protestant Basterd’ and everything else and yet I was getting threatened by Loyalist paramilitaries because I was working with Catholics. So, can somebody tell me exactly how do I win, because it seems to me that no matter what I do I’m on a lose/lose here.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

This idea of sub-identities, within an overarching identity, can get overlooked in post-conflict situations. That this study found the presence of such sub-identities is a good example of how black and white identity constructs are not the be all and end all when it comes to conflicts affecting the clubs. This has implications for further conflict transformation research which will be discussed in the next chapter.

GEOGRAPHICAL STRUCTURES

The geographical make-up and layout of a city coming out of a violent conflict can be one of the key boundaries to community relations development and peace-building (Fitzduff and Gormley 2000; Byrne and Gormley-Henan 2014). The study found that, in Belfast, this is very much a factor influencing the potential of cross community boxing. This is especially so because the majority of those from a Catholic/Nationalist background reside in the West to South-West of the city, while the North, East and South are heavily dominated by those from a Protestant/Unionist background.

Peace walls

In addition, the communities from these neighbourhoods have been, and still are, kept apart at historical flash points by physical barriers referred to as ‘peace walls.’ These walls were first constructed by the British army in 1989 as a military response to violence and disorder. At the height of the troubles there were 110 such barriers and while the Government is in the process of removing these walls the process is slow. A recently as 2014 it was reported that there were over 60 remaining (Byrne and Gormley-Henan 2014). The study found that this special geographic segregation and physical barriers are hampering efforts, by the two boxing clubs studied, to garner cross-community support and members. However, there would be no need to explore the potential for cross-community boxing if these acute divisions didn’t exist. Cross-community boxing, therefore, is essentially a product of these divisions and yet its potential for integration is hampered by them.

“I brought them [aggressive neighbours] in one night, took them into the wee room. So I asked them what was wrong … I basically told them to give me a break and to cut to the chase … please tell me what I’ve done to piss you off before? They’ve said you’ve taken our peace money! ‘I’m taking your what? Our peace money! We’re meant to get peace money if we live in the interface area and you’re taking it because you moved in’. I said ‘I’ve no idea what you’re talking about [Laughs]. I genuinely think they could tell I was being honest with them.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

This peace wall incident is, in part, due to the history of the clubs and their roots in the working class communities across Belfast. In order to understand this, it is important to give a brief outline of the working class history of both clubs.

Working class origins

“Boxing is a very… working class sport and that’s where the roots of … The Troubles are here. You know, amongst working class areas and working class young fellas, and so boxing has done a great job.” (Joe Campbell, Interview 1, 2017)

“In the past that [boxing religious demographic] was more equal but I’d say now it’s more popular in Catholic neighbourhoods.” (Joe Campbell, Interview 1, 2017)

As seen above, boxing is a historically working class sport for young males in Belfast (Sugden 1995). This common identity appeared to insulate the clubs from the worst of the Troubles.

“It was also very good at the time on the Protestant side of the town, they had a lot of boxing clubs too. Never once in years did we have a trouble. We used to travel up the Shankhill Road and everywhere and they came up to us…Never any incidents, no issues… it was brilliant, them coming up here and us going up the Shankhill Road, up to Lisburn at the time, and down to Newtownabbey, and Rathcoole. We were everywhere in regards to boxing and there were great friends.” (Patsy McAllister, Interview 3, 2017)

This has slowly adapted over time to include a small influx of female and middle class fighters but the sport is still dominated by its original demographic. This is particularly the case in the Nationalist communities, and none more so than in West Belfast with clubs such as Oliver Plunkett’s Boxing Club (OPBC), Holy Family Boxing Club, and St. John Bosco Boxing Club to name but just a few with their roots in their communities.

OPBC as a ‘safe place

The history of the creation of St. Oliver Plunkett’s Boxing Club is one that is dominated by setbacks and determination to keep going when times became difficult. Speaking to Patsy McAllister, one of the founders and coaches of OPBC, and Jimmy McGrath, coach in OPBC, it is not hard to recognise what they’ve created in West Belfast.

The club was originally set up in 1970 during the height of ‘The Troubles’, in its original incarnation, on the outskirts of the city in Hannahstown. McAllister reported that, at that time, parents were flooding their children in the gates of the club in order to get them off the streets and into a safe environment. They knew that if they could account for their children being in the club for a number of hours in the evening that they would not be out either

50 throwing objects at British Army, the Royal Ulster Constabulary, or joining paramilitaries. The club acted as a safe space and a distraction from the daily struggles of life in Belfast.

“That was the height of the Troubles and everything that was going on. People were worried where their kids were and where they were going at night, they wouldn’t let them out. But if they were in a boxing club, boxing clubs in Belfast played a big role for a lot of young people, it gave them an outlet.” (Jimmy McGrath, Interview 3, 2017)

After only 2 years of having being open in Hannahstown, the club accidentally burnt down at 3am one morning and the rebuilding process began. They took over an old wooden hen house and turned it into a club and carried on with this space for the youngsters up until 1992 when tragedy struck again. The club, which had been a fire hazard again burnt to the ground and they were forced to pick themselves up and begin over again. This time they moved into their current premises, in South Link, with help coming from McAllister’s friends. Unfortunately he feels he did not receive the help he would have expected from the community and one gets the feeling he believes as though it is a thankless job at times, but it is all he knows and helping local kids is, admirably, what he lives to do.

The history of the club and its location in South Link, in the heart of the Nationalist community, mean that it is synonymous with being a club for the people from that geographical location.

CBBA as a ‘safe place’

The City of Belfast Boxing Academy (CBBA) was formed much more recently in 2011 by Terry McCorran. It is located on the Unionist side of the Short Strand peace wall in East Belfast. The peace wall is actually part of the western structure of the club building. Although a relatively new boxing club by Belfast standards, it was set up with the same purpose of getting young males and females off the streets of this highly working class area in which opportunities are few, and criminality is high. It would be assumed that McCorran didn’t go through as many turbulent experiences as OPBC in the creation of the club, and this would be a fair assumption, but McCorran is not without an underdog story.

“I started off, I bought one bag, and one speed ball, and I pinched four traffic cones off the roadworks and put them in the middle of the room and put a rope around them and that was our very first boxing ring.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

Today, the club remains in the community and is now housed in a disused primary school building. This is a considerable facility which allows for a large courtyard, two gyms, a couple of boxing rings, changing rooms, and office space. When this study was taking place, there were renovations ongoing with the grant money given by the Northern Irish Government; the money which McCorran had pushed for at the award ceremony the previous year.

McCorran remains a respected figure in the area due to his work in the community, his never- back-down style of confrontation, and his battles with illness which has seen him overcome numerous heart problems. His physically imposing figure certainly acts as a catalyst for the changes he is pushing regarding the club’s integration of alternative members and those from other faiths. This respect, he’s says

“It took a long time because I was threatened by Loyalist paramilitaries. I got a phone call here one night to go to the local police station which said I’d been threatened to be shot by the UVF, because I wanted to put a door into the Short Strand.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

Difficulties will remain with cross-community efforts however due to a number of obstacles, such as physical and psychological boundaries which will be discussed later below.

Us versus Them Mentality

The study suggests that the geographical layout of Belfast has also acted in creating an easy ‘us versus them’ mentality when it comes to cross-community boxing. There is very much a prominent mentality in Belfast around the idea of ‘rival’ communities, whether it be an East/West rivalry or a rivalry created by the peace walls separating communities that often have more socio-economic issues in common than not. Joe Campbell was quick to talk to the author about this mentality and how it has prevented a viable political alternative in Northern Ireland.

“The political parties are only in power when there is division, they thrive on it. What future for Sinn Féin and the DUP if there was really integration” (Joe Campbell, Interview 1, 2017)

The identity politics, started by the conflict, but maintained heavily by city structure is all too prominent to this very day.

Prior to The Troubles, politics in Northern Ireland was dominated by a Unionist Party with a Nationalist opposition. Generally the tone of politics was centrist with few if any extremes represent. During The Troubles the more extreme Unionists represented by the Democratic

Unionist Party and the more extreme Nationalists represented by Sinn Féin grew steadily to the point that they were the two largest partied when the Government collapsed in January this year (2017). The subsequent election in March consolidated their positions when both parties shared fifty six percent of the vote. With their domination of politics there doesn’t appear to be a strong alternative party that legitimately attempts to represent the needs of both the Nationalists and Unionists equally in Northern Ireland. These two parties will often only canvas for votes in areas where they feel they are welcome and will dominate the vote regardless. This mentality spills down to the residents of these communities and creates this rivalry, which isn’t a healthy rivalry that we see in sport, but a rivalry that can lead to sectarianism. At present, in June 2017, the government in Northern Ireland has collapsed and has not been revived at time of writing this thesis.

The study explored the link between this ‘rival’ mentality and boxing, specifically how this mentality is expressed, or not, by the boxers and by the communities in which they compete.

“[Ex-World Champion and working class Protestant] Carl Frampton crosses the divide…to a certain extent…Now what’s going to happen is that Carl is going to start getting marginalised [Due to newfound success of Republican boxers] because he’ll be seen from Tiger’s Bay and Michael’s [Conlon] from the Falls and his father is from Dublin. They are a Republican family.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

In order to achieve this, the researcher spoke with key people from both clubs and visited a National Championship event held outside Northern Ireland.

In April 2017, the author visited the Irish Athletic Boxing Association (IABA) boys’ national championships in Dublin, the capital of the Republic of Ireland. Over the course of three days the researcher observed close to 100 fights. Each fight lasted just six minutes (three, 2ninute rounds). The ages of these boys ranged from eleven to fourteen years. The championships had representatives from all over the island of Ireland; north and south, Unionist and Nationalist, and those with neutral backgrounds. During the championships the researcher observed that there was notable respect shown for each other among all the boxers and coaches present, irrespective of background. No negative incidents were observed or brought to the attention of the author, during this three day event. Speaking to coaches at the event, it became apparent that this is considered a normal occurrence and is one of the factors that distinguishes this niche sport from other more populist sports, like football, where un- structured conflict can happen when emotions spill over (Hanrahan 2014).

The study found similar reports of respect and positive behaviours among boxers and coaches when clubs are invited participate in ‘hostile’ territory’. McCorran told of the great time he had bringing his club CBBA to OPBC and insisted that he would absolutely return in the future, even though the neighbourhood made some of his boxers uncomfortable. He stated that the issues arise when locals from the neighbourhood shout abuse, spit at their bus, put windows through on vehicles, and other such incidents. McGrath in OPBC has admitted that it’s a struggle that all clubs in Belfast are up against as it’s near to impossible to control what happens outside of the clubs.

“We can only do so much. If I ever seen any incidents we’d be the first people over to knock that on the head. If somebody throws a stone at somebodies car outside, I can’t do nothing.” (Jimmy McGrath, Interview 3, 2017)

McCorran also stated that members of the public would be more likely to shout something once they see a club’s tracksuits been worn by the boxers. In Dublin he recalled an incident where a person in the street verbally abused one his boxers and said to their face:

“What are the huns doing here” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

‘Huns’ , in this case, is a derogatory term for Protestants. This is a finding backed up by ‘The Report of the Independent Working Group Examining Boxing in Ulster’ in 2013, which concluded that the perpetrators of sectarian abuse in Northern Ireland are not the boxers themselves but the general public and spectators. It seems as though there is little that can be done outside the confines of the clubs themselves and it is more a symptom of such a fragmented society and geographical layout of the neighbourhoods.

Psychological barriers

The second boundary that needs to be overcome in order for boxing to work for increasing cross-community integration or conflict transformation is a psychological one. These psychological boundaries appear to stem from a number of factors. A number of boxers were asked by the author would they ever consider basing themselves in a boxing club in which was dominated by the ideology in which they were not raised with. Three main themes came out for those who said they would not be willing to. The first is that many of them were raised to have a deep mistrust or even dislike for those from the ‘other side’ and there is an uneasiness engrained in them, even if they subdue it on a day to day basis. The second

54 psychological factor is that historically it was not accepted for them to enter that area, and that although now it may be safer, it is still difficult to lose your habits upon which you were taught were the social norm. Thirdly, the murals and more specifically the paramilitarisation of murals, acts as a psychological barrier for entering particular neighbourhoods on a regular basis without feeling nervous or on edge.

BOXING STRUCTURES ON THE ISLAND OF IRELAND

Introduction

The third overarching theme to emerge from this study is the structure of boxing on the island of Ireland. Of particular interest, are and the issues it creates for progress in the sport of boxing and the wider community, especially in influencing the potential of cross community boxing to contribute to conflict transformation.

When planning this study, the author did not expect this theme to feature prominently in the fieldwork, nor to be identified through data gleaned from informants as an important subject for analysis, when exploring the potential for cross-community boxing to contribute to conflict transformation for youth in Belfast. What the study found, however, is that the body responsible for implementing and regulating boxing in Ireland, including in Northern Ireland, the Irish Amateur Boxing Association (IABA) is central to an understanding and examination of this potential.

The study’s findings, outlined below in three sub-themes, would suggest that this body (IABA), and the structure it regulates, is not currently in a place to be supportive to encouraging potential, should such potential exit.

The three main sub-themes, or factors, that will be outlined in this chapter are: ‘representation’, breakaway of a number of Unionist clubs from the IABA, and relationships between the clubs and the IABA. However, before addressing these individually, it is important to state here that, although these are based on the more administrative side of the sport, many of the issues raised by them interact with, and sometimes flow from, identity

55 issues and the geographical layout of the island. For this reason there will be some overlap with themes and issues identified in the two previous sections.

Representation

The topic of ‘representation’ in boxing in Northern Ireland is one of the key challenges that boxing faces on the island. Representation in this scenario is related to the nationality of the boxers in Northern Ireland. While this may not originally seem like a key difficulty for cross- community boxing, the knock on effects from disillusionment and the breakdown in relations have implications for the sport in Belfast.

For traditional and legal reasons people from Northern Ireland have a choice of identifying as either Irish, British or both. This is reflected in their being able to hold dual passports. (Belfast Agreement 1998). In reality, the young boxers in Northern Ireland identify as Irish, British, or indeed Northern Irish. Unfortunately for the boxers who reach a high enough standard to represent their country at under-age, they only have the choice of representing Ireland. This is due to the fact that the main international bodies (The International Boxing Association and the International Olympic Committee) will only recognise the national associations under which the boxers fight. On the island of Ireland these are the Irish Athletic Boxing Association (IABA) which is amateur, the Boxing Union of Ireland which is professional, and the Olympic Council of Ireland (OCI).

This works in a similar fashion to the Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) in which national teams are selected on an all island basis. The difference here however is that the rugby team compete under a flag which represents all four provinces in Ireland and the tricolour is rarely used. Indeed, even a second national anthem has been created for this all island Irish rugby team.

The IABA has not gone to these same lengths to accommodate representatives of Irish boxing, from all backgrounds, on the international stage. This means that boxers, who could be potentially from a Unionist background and had family killed during the conflict, must stand for the national anthem of Ireland, under an Irish flag, all whilst wearing Irish boxing attire. An argument could be made that they do not have to partake at international level if they feel strongly against representing Ireland. This leaves any young boxer from Belfast who has aspirations of reaching the pinnacle of amateur boxing, the Olympics, or going on to a

56 professional develop a professional career in a bind, i.e., either to go up and box under Ireland or not to pursue their high aspirations.

If a boxer has ever represent Ireland and has an opportunity to box in the Olympics for either the Irish Olympic team or Team GB (Great Britain) his or her choice is not straight forward. This is because the Amateur International Boxing Association (AIBA) requires a boxer to officially change nationalities before they are allowed to do so. The author was told that this is a long and arduous process which can last years and does not include those who wish to represent Northern Ireland. In the case of those who are from Northern Ireland and have not represented Ireland, but who wish to represent Team GB, selection is not easy either. This is because Northern Ireland is not included under the regulations for selection. This hypothetical boxer would have, therefore, to join/register with a boxing club in England, Scotland or Wales in order to be eligible. Patsy stated that he could not understand why you would want to go through this difficult process:

“And to box for, to win an English vest, you have to go and reside in England for 6 months, you’ve to be a member of an English club. They mustn’t have went in to all these details, you can’t do that, they can’t box then, so I don’t know why they wanted to break away.” (Patsy McAllister, Interview 3, 2017)

It is easy to see from this bureaucratic procedure how people in the Unionist community, and also neutral communities, can feel frustrated by the process, or indeed the lack of process to reach their desired nationality/identity. For those who feel Northern Irish and seek to represent that entity, there is a complete vacuum in this area. The only time a boxer is allowed to represent Northern Ireland is in the Commonwealth Games every four years. The author was told by McCorran in CBBA that this is ridiculous and completely outdated, especially when viewing the success of the Northern Irish football team in the European Championships in 2016. Northern Irish Footballers have the option of playing for the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland.

“All I’m saying to people is, we should have the right, everybody in Northern Ireland should have the right to box for Ireland, for Northern Ireland … and for Team GB at the Olympics.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

The study found, after speaking informally to some of the boxers, that this is an issue that each individual appears to have a separate opinion on.

An IABA source revealed to the author that that they don’t believe there to be any issue with the system currently in place. He gave the examples of Carl Frampton, the ex-world champion from a traditional Unionist heartland on the outskirts of Belfast, and a few current

57 amateur boxers from predominantly Unionist areas that have remained loyal to the IABA team as justification for this. Indeed speaking to those in Nationalist circles, including McAllister in OPBC, they meet view the dissenters with disregard.

“In my opinion, they must not have [thought it through] because when you’re a boxing club in Ireland, Ireland is a thirty two county sport. Headquarters is Dublin… every club affiliates… to Dublin [With IABA]”. (Patsy McAllister, Interview 3, 2017) This opinion may be influenced by political beliefs and/or by a reluctance to damage the possibility for a united Ireland, which would to be expected from within a Nationalist working class community. McCorran is sceptical it must be said about the future of boxing in at an Olympic level and feels recent controversies in the Rio Olympics, such as issues with judges and speak of bribery, may act as a catalyst for the removal of amateur boxing and the implementation of professional boxing. He is extremely against this as he feels it will be a decision motivated by money. He also maintains that it would be irresponsible and dangerous if amateurs were to remain in the competition and face professionals.

This issue of nationality and failure for one to be able to represent their nation, whatever they feel it to be, especially at a younger age is having a direct effect on both the numbers involved in the sport, and in turn the standards of the boxers put forward. A boxer of Terry’s in CBBA is one example of this:

“I had one lad in here particularly who… could maybe make the Olympics squad, but he wanted to box for Northern Ireland, that’s just what he is. He’d box for Ireland, but he’d rather box for Northern Ireland…but because we had broken away he can’t box for anybody now.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

The author was told by the IABA official that the majority of coaches and boxing students in Northern Ireland, whatever their backgrounds, will have no issue in representing Ireland in under-age, World and European Championships. There are some whoever who feel passionately enough that they will not partake or are a reluctant member of the IABA system. The solution to this issue is not straight forward however, as a split would only further create an ‘us’ and ‘them’ narrative within the sport in Northern Ireland. Nonetheless, this has not prevented a group of ‘Unionist’ clubs in Northern Ireland from feeling disillusioned with the current IABA system.

“This is why Dublin are reluctant to give Northern Ireland their own spot [Success of boxers from NI]. I mean if you lived in Scotland, you’re allowed to box for Scotland. If you live in England, you’re allowed to box for England. If you live in Ireland, you box for Ireland. If you live in Wales, you box

for Wales. Come the Olympics if you’re English, Scottish, or Welsh you compete for a place on Team GB. We’re not. Why are we different?” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

There was a break away from the IABA system in order to try and form a Northern Ireland amateur boxing association which will be looked at in the next sub-section.

Breakaway Clubs

In 2012, Sandy Row Boxing Club, a boxing club from a predominantly Unionist neighbourhood, led a breakaway group of boxing clubs out of IABA. This followed a retrospective ten-year report, Northern Ireland Amateur Boxing: A Decade of Sectarian and Racial Abuse, that they conducted on alleged sectarianism that their members had experienced at different boxing competitions around Belfast over that period of time (unavailable but cited in Hansard 2012). The author was told that they had decided to go forward to the Northern Irish Assembly with their complaints and concerns. This action was taken after much deliberation and concern about the risk of tarnishing the reputation of boxing in Belfast. They had also claimed that other clubs had not come forward for these same reasons and so decided to take a leadership role on the issue.

By 2015, this club had garnered the support of 17 clubs, mainly based in Unionist areas. CBBA was one of these clubs that had decided to break away from the IABA.

“We brought a full dossier up to the County Antrim Board… That meeting was the point where I decided I cannot stay in the IABA. It had been made very clear that we weren’t wanted.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

McCorran was one of four representatives who took their concerns to Sport NI and made the case for their Northern Irish Boxing Association to be officially recognised and be eligible for funding from Sport NI. McCorran told the author that under the Belfast Agreement rules, he believes that boxers should be eligible to represent Britain or Ireland depending on their ‘identity’ preferences.

“If you gave us a weekend, a day, to sit down at a table, with the proper people around the table, and for us to turn around and to be able to say to them ‘it’s not about stopping you being Irish and wanting to box for Ireland’ … where is our equality, our respect and our dignity?” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

So what began as a complaint about sectarianism has escalated into a demand for a radical change in structures. How this happened is explored in the next section.

Relationship between clubs and the IABA

In order to answer the main research question about the potential of cross-community boxing in conflict transformation for working class youth in Belfast, it is necessary to outline, briefly, the relationship between the clubs and the IABA, and among some of the clubs.

Based on what the study elicited in the course of the authors contacts (observation and interviews) with all sides, and from the available literature, there appears to be a marked lack of dialog among all the respondents and between the clubs and the IABA.

It has been claimed by CBBA that since the breakaway of the seventeen clubs happened, there has been little to no communication from either the IABA or the other clubs in Belfast which remained in the IABA system, outside of press releases.

“I’m still waiting for a phone call, I’m still waiting for a letter to say ‘what can we do, is there any way of getting you back in?’” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

Whether this is being done on purpose or not is not for the author to speculate on. It became very apparent however, that there is an appetite from CBBA to speak to the other clubs in Belfast and discuss how they got to the point they are at now and where they can go from here.

As mentioned in an earlier chapter, there is a deep mistrust in the Nationalist community that is born out of the tensions created by the split, and the unwillingness to accept the breakaway group’s claims at face value, viewing it, instead, as a sectarian power ploy. There appears to be no genuine open avenues of communication between the disagreeing clubs in Belfast. It is as if whoever blinks first, or makes the first move, is showing weakness. This could also be an attitude that is reinforced by the political climate in which they are immersed.

Finally, it is clear from data gleaned by the author when he spoke ‘informally’ to people from all sides of the divide, at the Boys Championships in Dublin, that there are major issues in the relations between the IABA and the clubs. The author learned of apparent lack of communication, arrogance, biased referees, and bullying behaviour from those in authority, to list but a few of the complaints. These complaints appear to be corroborated in numerous press reports from the time that the Decade of Sectarian report was released, that the IABA are sceptical of the breakaway group’s claims and contend that sectarianism only exists in isolated incidents. This would fit with Sugden and Harvie’s advocacy that governing bodies are reluctant to admit to certain effects of community divisions on their sport “for fear that

60 this admission would be interpreted as an admission that their sport was in some way sectarian” (Sugden and Harvie 1995:48). This finding will be discussed further in the next chapter before consolidating a number of recommendations about how to ease this tension in order to release the potential of cross-community boxing for conflict transformation for working class youth in Belfast.

SUMMARY

The study found that, while cross community boxing does have the potential for conflict transformation, realisation is largely confined to within-club cross cultural contact, where conditions such as equal status, common goals, intergroup cooperation and strong leadership from coaches are present. However, this potential is not being realised in the wider inter community settings due to a number of negative attitudes and other behaviours grouped around identity, geographical structures and the structure and regulation of boxing on the island of Ireland. The study concluded that there needs to be a major restructuring of the Irish Athletic Boxing Association in order for it to be more open to, and accommodating of, diverse views as well as societal development, and the removal of physical and psychological boundaries, before the potential of boxing can be realised for the benefit of all the community.

Chapter 6

DISCUSSION

INTRODUCTION

This chapter will include a number of comments reflections and musings that the researcher felt needed to be expressed in relation to the findings and the project as a whole, before moving on to the concluding chapter which will provide a summary of the study and recommendations. Where applicable this discussion will be structured along the lines of the findings. It will not however discuss every finding as some findings have already been exhausted in the text.

IDENTITY

Identity

Each of the two boxing clubs sampled for this study were chosen because they are located on opposite sides of the Unionist and Nationalist community divide in Belfast where each community has its own separate and conflicting identity. However, when the researcher visited the clubs he discovered that expression of this identity was discouraged almost to the point of being banned. While the rules governing discussion and displays of identity were introduced for good reason (e.g. to encourage young men and women from all walks of life to join the club) the researcher sensed that, possibly, this became the elephant in the room that people refused to speak about. For the researcher, it set up an interesting dynamic so that it was difficult to get the back stories of the boxers who attended, outside of informal conversations. Indeed, to have forced the issue would have probably been counterproductive, both to achieving the research objective (by possibly effecting relations with said club and boxers) and by encouraging dishonest or subterfuge behaviour. Having said that, it was the researcher’s opinion that this rule was enforced to varying degrees of leniency in both clubs.

The Oliver Plunkett’s Boxing Club (OPBC) appeared to turn a blind eye to members wearing sporting attire that indicated what identity they were affiliated to. In Belfast, this is an easy observation to make due to the fact that many Nationalists will support the Scottish football team Glasgow Celtic, because of its Irish Catholic roots. Unionists will support Celtic’s rivals, Glasgow Rangers, a team proud of its British, Protestant identity.

In the City of Belfast Boxing Academy (CBBA) there was a complete ban on all sporting attire that carried a logo/team badge, with one exception - a degree of leniency shown to the Ulster Rugby kit. It is most likely that this was because the Ulster rugby team is generally accepted as a cross-community team. One boxer appeared at training in Ulster Rugby shorts and the topic was addressed openly in front of the other members, without fuss.

In OPBC, it became clear that this rule, which the author was told was in place, seemed purely hypothetical as, in practice, it appeared to be almost non-existent. Of the eighteen boys in attendance one evening, four were wearing elements of Glasgow Celtic attire with no observable sanctions coming from the coaches. It would appear that, on that evening, this was not an issue because the majority, if not all of the boxers present, were from traditionally Catholic neighbourhoods. In the future however, if there were to be a particular emphasis on cross-community integration, this would be a major deterrent to those with Unionist backgrounds looking to join.

Imagery

Another area associated with identity is the display of imagery inside both boxing clubs. Imagery, in this context, relates primarily to the pallet of colours used in the boxing clubs as well as the flags being displayed and the pictures on the walls.

There was a stark difference in the author’s opinion as to the level of national imagery displayed within the clubs. This may be a symptom however of wider Northern Irish identity culture and what has become accepted and what has become frowned upon.

Three of the most prominent professional boxers from Northern Ireland currently on the world stage, are Carl Frampton, Michael Conlon and Paddy Barnes. Conlon and Barnes are from Catholic, Nationalist backgrounds whereas Frampton is from a Protestant family. The attitudes each takes towards identity is reflective of the clubs that were visited during this study. Conlon and Barnes are proactively nationalistic and, when they are fighting in some of the largest arenas in the world, they are extremely proud of their Irish roots. This is evident from their entrance music to their green shorts and the Irish tricolour draped around them. Frampton, on the other hand, sees himself as a neutral boxer representative of Northern Ireland as a whole. Frampton can often be found sporting the Northern Irish football shirt and attending their matches.

As a southern Irishman, the author is aware that Irish nationalism is not generally viewed in the same way, and with the same negative connotations, as nationalism from many other states around the world; particularly those that were colonial powers. This results in Irish nationalism being widely, and benignly, accepted around the world. Indeed its good- humoured displays are regularly lauded by foreign publics, such as at the European Football Championships in 2016, where the Irish supporters won an award for their behaviour and the friendly atmosphere they created. It’s important to understand this contrast in attitudes towards Irish nationalist displays and British colonial displays, for an understanding of the imagery inside the clubs.

It was no surprise to the researcher that there was no Union Jack on display among the many national flags displayed in OPBC. This absence was to be expected due to the contentious nature of the flag in nationalist communities. If this flag had been displayed it would have been highly unusual, but perhaps encouraging for cross-community development. Unfortunately this was not the case.

In contrast, the CBBA created some surprises for the researcher. Due to the neighbourhood that the boxing club was located in, the author was expecting a ‘proudly British’ atmosphere inside the club, with many flags and Union Jacks on display. What he observed there however, was almost a complete absence of any flags inside the grounds and premises of the boxing club. There was a European Union flag and an image of the Irish tricolour in a photograph. This finding was in complete contrast with the adjacent streets and houses of the area, which were covered in all forms of Unionist and paramilitary murals and graffiti.

The photographs on the walls in the OPBC appear to be a indication of the pride that members have in their club’s history and the success of their boxers representing Ireland on the world stage and all those that have gone on to become professional. Three of these active Irish professional boxers, Tyrone McKenna, Tommy McCarthy, and Anthony Cacace were observed at the club, one evening, sparring and training alongside youngsters. Their connection to the club is obviously still quite close. This form of participation/inclusion seems to act as a great example to the youngsters who aspire to, one day, reach such heights. The photos of boxers past and present, amateur and professional, are as a daily reminder when these ‘heroes’ are not present.

It would be very easy to criticise OPBC and praise CBBA for their respective stances taken inside the clubs, with regard to the layout and imagery. However, it must also be said that it

64 fits in with the aforementioned attitudes towards nationalism, and specifically this worldwide acceptance of Irish nationalism.

Suspicion

The mistrust and suspicion found in the attitudes of the two clubs towards one another was picked up by the researcher in his many interactions, particularly with officials for both sides. OPBC were very sceptical of McCarran’s claims for integration and his perceived court chasing awards. Yet McCarran claimed that he was unaware of any proposed selection until he was informed by the award organisers that some of his boxing students had nominated him. This seemed genuine, as he appeared quite moved when relating this. The lack of dialogue between the clubs and ingrained mistrust from the conflict in Northern Ireland allow these series of decisions and events to destroy potential relationships and prevent increased integration and cross-community boxing bouts. This lack of dialogue between the clubs and the dispute over the breakaway has prevented the healing of old scars.

“It left a sour taste in people’s mouths when so many clubs broke away.” (Pasty McAllister, Interview 3, 2017).

GEOGRAPHICAL STRUCTURES

Boundaries, peace walls and other barriers

The study highlighted the challenges facing efforts of bring about conflict transformation through cross-community boxing. A practical difficulty is the number of physical boundaries and obstacles that have to be overcome just to move from one community to the other. This also reinforces psychological barriers and challenges strongly held beliefs left over from the conflict.

McCorran’s practical suggestion of creating a door in the Short Strand peace wall that leads directly into his CBBA building is very interesting and certainly innovative. On the surface if seems simple but, as one of his boxer’s opined, it does not seem like a feasible proposal. The

65 door would have to be manned in order to stop intruders/easy access and escape for criminals or paramilitaries into these traditionally opposition communities. This challenge is not impossible to surmount if the conditions for direct contact were in place, particularly intergroup co-operation around a common goal (Pettigrew 1998). However, they are not and McCorran was subjected to life threatening pressure, from undesirable elements of his own community, not to attempt to cut a door in the wall or face consequences. This is where a strong unifying authority from within that fragmented Unionist community, with a ‘willingness to engage’ (Lederach 2003), would help release the potential of cross community boxing.

“They take the peace, I mean what peace have we really got? People are even getting threatened by their own.” (Terry McCorran, Interview 2, 2017)

Safe place

The argument has been put forward by both sides that boxing clubs in Belfast, and specifically their own clubs, act as safe spaces in which boxers can participate in a sport they love; get off the streets, give routine to their lives, add discipline, and be in an environment, as the study found, where they do not have to discuss their political or religious identities. This is a valid argument and it is why, despite all the challenges set by failures to meet the four conditions outlined by Pettigrew (1998) required by direct contact – equal status, common goals, intergroup co-operation and a functioning overarching authority structure - the author believes that there is a huge potential within cross-community boxing for conflict transformation. Indeed on a micro ‘within club’ level, there does seem to be conflict transformation. This is down to the presence of all four conditions under the authority of strong coaches who set the rules.

However, when we move outside the clubs, their geographical locations remain something that cannot be changed easily or without financial cost. It was interesting that McCorran highlighted how CBBA struggles to lose the tag of a ‘Loyalist club’ and the same could be said for OPBC and its Nationalist image, based on its location. Indeed the author succumbed to this lazy labelling when he was selecting both clubs for study.

So, while the club grounds can act as ‘safe space’ for the boxers, the need for more ‘favourable’ conditions (Amir 1969) lie in the communities and neighbourhoods surrounding

66 them. For example, if you were a Unionist/Loyalist from the Shankhill Road area, a neighbourhood located north of where OPBC is situated, would you really feel safe walking into a Nationalist/Republican dominated area five nights a week for boxing training? The same question could be asked of a Nationalist/Republican, coming from their side of the Short Strand peace wall, an area that is associated with Loyalist paramilitaries. Would the cross-community boxers ‘actually’ be safe or not just ‘feel’ safe? It is unlikely that any youngster would risk putting this question to the test in the current post-conflict atmosphere unless they were satisfied that all the conditions were put in place.

“There’s a couple of lads further up the road there, there’s a wee estate up there and they wanted to come down here, their father wanted to bring them down here. They were originally from Cairn Lodge, but the kids said they were a wee bit afraid…were a wee bit nervous.” (Patsy McAllister, Interview 3, 2017)

This is an area that needs to be addressed in order to release the potential of cross-community boxing.

Us versus Them Mentality

The study did not find any negative incidents arising out of National Championships held in Dublin and the coaches reported that this is normal and that it is one of the factors that distinguishes this niche sport from other more populist sports. However the researcher is conscious that this positive narrative is one forward by many involved in the boxing community due to their loyalty and their need to protect the sport. There seems to be an underlying wariness that any ‘bad press’ will see the media report on ‘thugs in sport’. There also seems to be an ethic that boxers can do their talking with their fists, inside a controlled environment under strict rules and so have no reason to cause trouble. Having said that, these Championships were held in a relatively neutral venue - the National Stadium. Things may have been different if they were held in either a Nationalist or Unionist stronghold.

It would be interesting to study such a tournament located in a hostile territory setting. As mentioned earlier, it appears that boxers seem to have no issues with those they are in competition with, no matter where their opposition is from. This seems to be more noticeable with younger age groups where a healthy rivalry seems to be present. It would appear that where this geographical rivalry spills over into sectarianism it is related to the historically antagonistic communities in which competitions take place when one club, say from a

Unionist area, goes to another club in a Nationalist heartland. This raises a challenge for conflict transformation.

Related to this idea of the geographical layout hampering the improvement of cross- community relations and conflict transformation boxing, is the very real notion of a need to break down the physical and psychological boundaries. To revert to the door in the peace wall scenario again, the reason for a door is actually quite simple. Were a youth from the Nationalist community at the back of the CBBA to join this club, he or she would have to walk for over 10 minutes through a historically hostile Loyalist neighbourhood, complete with intimidating militarised murals in order to reach the club’s entrance. A door would reduce this obstacle and increase the potential for direct cross-community contact.

The murals and specifically the paramilitarisation of murals, acts as a psychological barrier for entering particular neighbourhoods on a regular basis without feeling nervous or on edge. Although efforts have been made, in some areas of the city, to clean up the images, they are seen in the majority of hard-line neighbourhoods as part of the history of their neighbourhood and a source of strength and pride. They are also used to mark territories among rival paramilitary gangs.

An example of this is the neighbourhood in which CBBA is located. The ten minute route, mentioned above, is lined with large murals of the Ulster Defence Association, the Ulster Volunteer Force, the Loyalist Volunteer Force and other such rival intra-community groups depicted in combat dress, sporting AK47 assault rifles, balaclavas, and other violent paraphernalia, complete with intimating aggressive slogans (Appendix B). For a young male or female to have to walk by these murals and not feel in some way psychologically unnerved, is unrealistic. These psychological boundaries are to be in competition with efforts being made by the coaches in both clubs, and clubs in other areas, to encourage those from other backgrounds to become members.

BOXING STRUCTURES ON THE ISLAND OF IRELAND

Introduction

One of the major finding to come out of this study is that the structure of boxing on the island of Ireland, and the issues it creates for progress in the sport of boxing and the wider

68 community (especially in influencing the potential of cross community boxing to contribute to conflict transformation) is arguably the most pressing issue surrounding boxing in Belfast and Northern Ireland. One can’t emphasise enough the need to address this issue as soon as possible. It needs to be sorted before any success can happen around inter-community issues in the sport.

Representation

One of the ways to progress this seems to be to grasp the nettle of ‘representation’ in boxing in Northern Ireland. This is a challenge that won’t be easy to tackle but it needs to be done. The first place to start is by recognising that there is an issue, unlike some of the feedback received by this researcher. It might be worth considering introducing a special agreement or status for boxers seeking to represent their nationality of choice while remaining affiliated to or otherwise linked with the IABA. This would require the involvement of the governments of the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, and the UK along with the respective Olympic Councils and boxing associations.

Breakaway Clubs

The argument that there could be an opening, under the Belfast Agreement rules, for boxers to be allowed to represent Britain or Ireland is a difficult one to disagree with, as it is essentially looking for equal rights for the boxers in the North. However, having a separate Northern Ireland Boxing Association may not be the best route to take when looking for change. This is because, by pulling their clubs out of the IABA, the breakaway clubs are currently unable to compete in championships at any level. It is the young boys and girls who are getting punished by this. Secondly, the stance they are taking in supporting a new association for Northern Ireland was labelled as “divisive” by the independent report that was published (IWG 2013). Thirdly, it leaves Sports Northern Ireland in a difficult position as they look to balance the findings of the report, the needs of these seventeen clubs, and relations with the IABA and Olympic Councils.

Finally, having a separate association creates a greater divide between boxing clubs in Belfast and Northern Ireland in an already heavily fragmented society. It is understandable that they

69 perceive that the IABA is not addressing their concerns to the extent that they wish. OPBC argue that the IABA has indeed addressed their grievances:

“If someone had a grievance in boxing and they weren’t happy with the board or the Ulster Board, then there was somewhere where their grievance could be heard outside of that, if they didn’t feel as though they were getting a fair hearing. So there were mechanisms put in place, and things put in place, to address what somebody seen as inequality, or they weren’t being treated right. Well there’s that there.” (Jimmy McGrath, Interview 3, 2017)

However, conducting discussions North and South with the relevant parties, who can try to work towards a special dispensation for these boxers (under the auspices of the IABA), appears to be a less contentious option. This issue is clearly affecting the boxers in Belfast both in their attitudes towards ‘the other’ but also in a practical sense of being unable to compete. This is something that must be addressed before any steps can be taken towards the improvement of relations through boxing.

Relationship between clubs and the IABA

Regarding the findings that there is evidence to suggest that there is a lack of communication between the clubs and the IABA, it will be important to examine this further. Getting people to the table and discussing how to resolve this impasse should be the first step towards improving the sport in Northern Ireland, whilst maintaining a system where the clubs can still meet in competition under the IABA and feel as though their identity is being represented fairly.

The IABA need to put in the ground work for these developments to happen. Although they sanctioned the independent report, this perceived general disregard for the claims of some of their clubs does nothing for the belief that they are trying to better the sport in Northern Ireland and not just the Republic. It would make logical sense for the IABA to sit down with Sport NI and the Minister for Sport in the Republic and work out a plan for boxers in Northern Ireland. This will involve changes in regulations of potentially the IABA, the British Boxing Council, the British Olympic Association and the Olympic Council of Ireland, This would appear to be the best resolution for a situation that could get worse if not handled correctly11.

11 The difficulty in this situation, where increased dialogue between the Irish Athletic Boxing Association (IABA) and the clubs in Northern Ireland is needed, is that the organisation itself is going through a civil war.

This increased communication is paramount to an improvement in cross-community boxing relations, and also to boxing as a whole in Northern Ireland. It would be the wish of the author that some of these issues could be addressed as there is most certainly potential there for cross-community boxing to be used as a form of conflict transformation. Unfortunately at this time, the potential of cross-community boxing as a form of conflict transformation appears to be underutilised if not sidelined.

SUMMARY

This chapter discussed a number of issues arising out of the findings which were grouped around the three main themes of identity, geographical structure, and the boxing structure on the island of Ireland. This covered subsidiary themes related to imagery, suspicion, boundaries, peace walls and other barriers, as well as the role of the boxing club in providing a safe space for youth from threatening environments. It also discussed the predominance of an ‘us’ versus ‘them’ mentality in post-conflict Belfast. Lastly, it discussed the boxing structures on the island of Ireland with special emphasis on special representation at national/international events, the position of the clubs that left the IABA, and the relationship between these and other boxing clubs and the IABA.

Following the failures of the Irish boxing team at the Rio Olympics a report was commissioned by Sport Ireland. They found that the poor performance was down to failures in the High Performance Unit of the IABA and made a series of recommendations. If these recommendations weren’t implemented before July 1st 2017 the funding, from Sport Ireland and Sport NI, may be cut (O’Neill 2017). Since these recommendations were published a new head of the High Performance Unit has been appointed. However, there are now two warring factions who see two men as the rightful chairman, Joe Christle and David O’Brien (Casey 2017). On the 15th June, a new rule book was enacted in an effort to appease the Rio recommendations, but the leadership conflict remains. It is not hard to see why there has been such little effort towards the issues in the North, especially while their in house problems remain (RTÉ 2017).

Chapter 7

CONCLUSION

SUMMARY OF FINDINGS & CONCLUSIONS DRAWN

Belfast, the capital city of Northern Ireland, is a city divided along political religious and cultural line having emerged from decades of violent conflict. While sport is often used to express these divisions, boxing has been an exception, having been a unifying sport in Northern Ireland and possibly the only working class sport which has, until the violence of the late 20th Century, managed to avoided major sectarian division (Sugden 1995: 2010). The study sets out to build on this rich unifying history by attempting to explore the potential of cross-community boxing for ‘conflict transformation’ for working-class youth from segregated Unionist and Nationalist communities in Belfast.

Two boxing clubs, one from a Nationalist working class community - Oliver Plunkett’s Boxing Club (OPBC) and one from a Unionist working class community - City of Belfast Boxing Academy (CBBA) were chosen to represent both sides of the traditional divide in Belfast. This was supplemented by informal contact with officials and boxers from other clubs in a number of similar communities. This was done to bring an understanding of the wider context and to resist generalisation and, while it provided an element of triangulation, it could not be relied upon to be robust.

A mixed-method research approach was employed and this drew on conflict theory and on attitude theory to help understand how cross-community boxing might help bring about conflict transformation by bringing together young boxers from different identities in order to change their behaviour and attitudes towards one another.

The study found that over the course of over one hundred underage fights, the participants hardly spent any time together apart from the actual boxing. The maximum amount of time spent boxing was just six minutes, preceded by, and followed by, brief gestures of acknowledgement. As a result none of the boxers had any time, nor had they an opportunity, to socialise. This meant that there was no opportunity to bringing young boxers together, in a cross-community setting as expected by Contact Theory. Although no ill feeling was witnessed between the boxers and there appeared to be a mutual respect present, once the

72 fight was over each boxer went their separate ways almost immediately. This is a common scenario in boxing competitions in Ireland. It hampers the development of any cross- community ‘relationship’ and with it the potential for attitude change. This and other findings were organised using thematic analysis. This resulted in identifying a number of themes grouped around three main themes - geographical structure, and the way boxing is structured.

Identity

It was expected that, due to the working class neighbourhoods in Belfast, from which the boxing clubs were drawn, that the boxers’ cultural identities would be very much on display within both clubs. The study found the opposite to be the case. Boxers were unwilling to speak about their identity in any formal capacity whatsoever and logos, sporting or otherwise, were banned. This emanated from policies enacted by coaches in both clubs.

A factor associated with identity that is hampering any potential for cross-community conflict transformation, is the deep mistrust from both communities towards one another. This appeared to be a side effect of living in a post-conflict city such as Belfast. It manifested itself in trying to second guess one another’s motives towards perceived integration. This sometimes resulted in serious misunderstandings and even complete breakdown in relations and dialogue between the two boxing communities.

Identity issues were not only confined to inter community rivalry but were also apparent in intra-community rivalries. This resulted in both unintentional and intentional pressure (often threatening and violent) inside the communities to prevent integration.

Geographical Structure

The geographical structure of Belfast was also found to be a major obstacle to releasing potential for conflict transformation. This took the form of clubs being located in areas that were either unsafe or perceived as unsafe by potential members from the opposing community. Another disincentive is that while the boxers are not responsible for sectarian abuse, there have been many cases where the wider community and spectators use boxing events to perpetrate undesirable behaviour. On top of all this were the physical and psychological barriers created by so called ‘peace walls’ and intimidating paramilitary murals and other street furniture.

Boxing Structure

The concluding finding that was a major take away from the study was the state of the boxing structure on the island of Ireland. While the researcher was aware of some of the issues regarding the Irish Athletic Boxing Association (IABA) before the field work, the extent of the discontent found among Northern Ireland officials and boxers surprising. It appears from the outside that the IABA has not done enough to cater to the needs of the Unionist community, and neutral community, in Northern Ireland. It also needs to reach out to disaffected officials and boxers. This finding is addressed in the recommendations section of this chapter.

WHY THE RESEARCH IS SO IMPORTANT?

Although this research was carried out for six months, the researcher believes that it is valuable to both the academic community and the boxing community. It unearths some issues within the boxing community that are either rarely reported on, swept under the carpet, or are out of their control.

For the academic community it is hoped that this work can showcase a niche sport that is under-utilised in the field of sport for development and peace (SDP), a discipline that focuses heavily on team based sports. The findings of this study also demonstrate how the geographical and political landscape in a post-conflict city can greatly impede any efforts for cross-community integration. Findings around neutral versus hostile venues, length and quality of direct contact, and the conditions necessary for change thwarted by aberrations around identity, geography and the structure of boxing are all areas that are ripe for investigation, post the Belfast Agreement.

Finally, there are areas of this research that the author believes are valuable for the boxing community in Belfast. During the field work it became apparent that there is huge potential for cross-community boxing to bridge divides between working class youth through conflict transformation. The boxing community will need to address people investing too much in the politics of the sport, the reluctance of some clubs in dispute to bury the hatchet, and the need for the IABA to take a leadership role by not being afraid to reach out to disaffected stakeholders for the good of boxing as well as the wellbeing of current and future generations of post conflict citizens. The hope is that this research can serve as a clear-the-air paper

74 which acknowledges faults from all sides of the table. There are many websites dedicated to writing about Irish boxing that only focus on those who reach a high level. There would appear to be little to no interest in resolving the current impasse which leaves a number of Unionist clubs out in the cold, and it is the author’s belief that this is where this exclusive, if not perfect, research thesis differs from the grey literature and journalistic opinion that has been informing the debate.

RECOMMENDATIONS FOR IMPROVING SITUATION

The situation at present, in regards to the potential for cross-community boxing to act as a means of conflict transformation, is unfortunately looking pretty dire and a long way from acting as a catalyst. While further study is needed in the area for definitive positive solutions, from the data gathered over the research, it is possible to make informed recommendations.

Identity

(A) In the clubs, if there are rules in place, they must be enforced. If a club feels it is important to leave your beliefs at the door then this must be applied to the letter of the law. Similarly, this must also apply to the banning of football jerseys or other clothing that carry logos or emblems.

(B) Going completely the opposite direction to the above point, it could be argued that by ignoring identity inside the clubs that it can become the elephant in the room. If a coach feels that his/her club is indeed a ‘safe space’ then it may actually be worthwhile to have open discussions with respect from all. This could help create understanding of the reasons behind individual’s personal beliefs.

(C) There needs to be an active effort from some of the professional and Olympic boxers from Belfast to try and put forward a version of Ulster/ Belfast pride rather than along Irish/British lines. While some have attempted to do this, there is still reluctance on the Nationalist side to embrace a collective identity.

(D) The mistrust that has its roots in the conflict, but has been increased by the breakaway division of the clubs in Northern Ireland has caused a huge amount of issues. The funding that has been given out by the government at times has appeared to be along identity lines and this feeds into the mistrust of ‘the other’. At present there is little to no contact between

75 some of the clubs in Belfast and this needs to be addressed. There needs to be increased dialogue and an honest airing of each other’s grievances.

(E) Funding that is given out needs to be followed up on to make sure the changes are being implemented. Grants have been given out but there has been scepticism as to whether the funds have been appropriately spent. Increased accountability helps to the sport, the facilities, and the relations.

Geographical Structure

(A) Safety remains an issue for boxers who are willing to cross the divide and for the coaches who are trying to encourage integration. Creative solutions need to be thought up of by the coaches in these scenarios. It may not be feasible but advertising and a collecting service could be worth considering. CBBA’s idea of putting a door in the peace wall is a perfect example of this but may be unrealistic.

(B) Sectarianism from the public and spectators is not an issue that is easily solved but steps can be taken to at least reduce it. Inside the clubs during competitions, a zero tolerance policy must be enforced. The coaches claim that they cannot take responsibility for what happens outside the grounds of the club. While this is slightly true, it can also be seen as a cop out. The majority of these communities have leaders that have been around for years. It may not be a common recommendation to make in academic research, but the word needs to put out to the community that if there are boxers from the ‘opposite’ community visiting, they will be treated with respect and their property, such as a bus, will be left untouched. Placing accountability with the coaches/ clubs would work as an incentive for them to have to take initiative.

Boxing Structure

(A) The issues surrounding the breakaway group need to be sorted as soon as possible. Although they want boxers to be able to represent either the United Kingdom or Northern Ireland, the creation of a separate Northern Irish Boxing Association will only create further division. Seeking a special status for boxers to be able to represent these nations, whilst remaining under the IABA bracket, would be an ideal solution. This would require the governments of the UK and the Republic of Ireland sitting down with the IABA and potentially the Olympic Councils. It would not be a simple process but would be the most preferable move.

(B) The IABA needs to make some concessions to the Unionist boxing community in order to cater to some of their needs. The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) could be an organisation that the IABA should look to for an example of how to do this. The IRFU has an all-Ireland rugby team which includes Nationalists and Unionists, North and South of the border. The IRFU created a separate flag which represents the four provinces of Ireland, and commissioned the creation of an inclusionary anthem called ‘Ireland’s Call’ which represents everyone on the island. This has been a major success and remains to this day.

(C) There needs to be increased communications between the boxing clubs all over the island and the IABA, whom many clubs from all communities see as being unresponsive to them. The structure of the IABA is an issue as there are many members in high positions and the clubs feel as though they don’t know who is in charge. Before boxing can work in any positive manner on the island, there needs to be a stable system in place where the clubs feel valued.

RECOMMENDATIONS FOR FUTURE RESEARCH.

Future research in this field would be greatly enhanced by a number of factors.

(A) The period of time spent conducting field research was constrained to five weeks and as such it can be argued that the results would be more in depth if it was carried out over a number of months, or possibly longer.

(B) Although focusing primarily on two clubs, one Nationalist and one Unionist, made sense for the time frame given for the research, it would be highly beneficial to compare the experiences of these clubs with others in Belfast.

(C) In the case of this study, the researcher lacked experience in boxing circles and never competed in boxing matches at any stage in his life. Although extensive knowledge of boxing has been acquired in the past, it is hard to substitute prolonged real life boxing experience. If a researcher in future had a background in boxing, and was able to join a club for a period of time, they would be able to interact and compete with others cross-community. This could offer extremely valuable insights, which may have been missed or misinterpreted in this work.

(D) An aspect of this research that was only discovered to be missing towards the end was a lack of access to officials such as in the IABA, the Irish Olympic Council, and Sports NI. This was only particularly evident once the findings were compiled and it became obvious that there was a huge amount of discontent with the above ‘powers’. Official responses from these associations to uncover their standpoints and to see what, if any, processes are in place to improve the structure and issues with boxing in Ireland would have been extremely beneficial.

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Appendix A

Recommendations (IWG 2013: 28-29)

1. The IABA, the BABA, the AIBA along with associated bodies/organisations should work together to identify the implications of the Good Friday Agreement for national representation and work to implement any recommendations including devising a plan to accommodate Ulster boxers who might represent Team GB at elite level.

2. The IABA, in association with the UBC, and the CAB (with assistance with Sport NI and the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure) must develop an official procedure, specifically designed to deal with incidents/potential incidents of sectarian and racist intimidation. This should include the development of penalties for failure to abide by the agreed procedure.

 The Independent Working Group suggests that the ‘host club’ (of an event) should assume responsibility for ensuring that the agreed procedure is implemented effectively. The host club should be properly trained and supported by the IABA to ensure that they have the capacity to enforce the agreed procedure.

 If a boxing club fails in this regard, that club should be held accountable and face an agreed and appropriate penalty.

 Intimidation and chill factors should be eliminated where possible.

 The Independent Working Group recommends that the IABA modernise their branding to incorporate all of the boxers that they represent.

3. The independent working group recommends that the IABA develop a protocol and code of conduct around the flying of national and contentious symbols at boxing bouts.

4. The Independent Working Group believes that the team colours are limited to two rather than three; and that displays at clubs should be limited to these colours17. A clubs failure to concede to these measures should be subject to the aforementioned grievance procedure.

5. The Independent Working Group recommends a focused review of the governance structures in Ulster.

6. The Group recommends investment in community relations training for coaches and volunteers. This training should include an emphasis on the importance of the implementation of the official procedure to ensure efficient management of incidents/potential incidents of sectarianism/racism.

7. The Independent Working Group recommends the initiation of formal discussion with Sport NI and Local authorities in relation to the establishment of safe and neutral championship/boxing show venues.

8. We recommend the development of a formal social media policy/code of conduct.

9. The Independent Working Group recommends the establishment of a formal selection process for coaches for the Commonwealth Games.

10. The Independent Working Group recommends that the Ulster Boxing Council, County Boards and all boxing clubs in Ulster continue to adhere strictly to the child protection policy and procedure as laid out by DCAL and maintain standards at the highest possible level.

11. All of the above recommendations should be advanced in the next 12 months in line with specific triggers agreed between the IABA and Sport NI.

12. Sport NI, UK Sport and The Irish Sports Council to provide greater guidance to the governing bodies operating in the UK and Ireland on their responsibility under the Good Friday Agreement including pathways to enable athletes from NI to exercise their personal choice (within certain constraints to ensure manageability) and also in terms of the use of appropriate emblems and anthems which reflect sports structures.

Appendix B – Interview 1

Transcript of Interview with Joe Campbell. – Conflict Transformation expert and Mediator during the ‘Troubles’.

*Interview starts slightly disjointed as we were making small talk whilst ordering coffee*

J: And of course it is, well I suppose it is the same in other cities but boxing is a very…it’s a working class sport and that’s where the roots of where, the kind of The Troubles are here. You know, amongst working class areas and working class young fellas and so boxing has done a great job. In many ways I suppose football is in the same category, with football being more popular but doesn’t in a sense deal with the aggression.

A: Exactly and what I found in the past is that it is very tribalistic..

J: It is…it is.

A: And especially whether you have people who are playing or supporting, if it’s not integrated and mixed, you’re going to still have one side and the other and you’re afraid to let yourself become, in some way, vulnerable.

J: And with boxing there it’s probably very popular in both Catholic and Protestant areas and probably in the past that was more equal but I’d say now it’s more popular in Catholic neighbourhoods. But eh… in the past I think it would have been more equal, but I don’t know the reasons for that. But every time I feel I see or hear Barry McGuigan I just think, ‘God, he’s done a good job’, working away, encouraging boxing in the local areas.

A: That’s actually what inspired me to carry out this research in the first place. My father used to always tell me the stories about how during the Troubles, when Barry McGuigan fought, there was almost an air of calm, and you could watch the boxing match in peace…

J: That’s right…

A: And of course he was famous for walking out with a United Nations flag, rather than associating himself with one nation or another…

J: That’s right…

A: And I want to know your opinion on sport, in general, in this city as a form of conflict transformation.

J: Well football would be a particularly divided with your Catholic teams, in the city here you have Cliftonville, and you have your Protestant team Linfield, and the others in the city such as Glentoran who’s a bit of a mixture but leaning towards being Protestant. So, I suppose that’s the big down side in soccer anyway. Now I think in fairness the IFA have done a lot of work to rebalance that and do a lot of work on the international scene. But what do you know about this city?

A: This city? (Laughs) Well as I say I missed the particularly bad times. I was born in 1992 so I’ve only started to see the improvements here, but from the outside. I know one of my best friends is from Belfast and even he was still a bit ‘edgy’ when I said I was coming here. He said that people, at times, try to paint a rosy picture but that not to be naïve and to be careful. He now personally has a more sceptical view and moved away a few years ago and he was just sick of the whole politics of the city {J: Exactly} and moved off to Bristol and then onto London. So people like to paint a nice picture but even now we can see the stagnation in the political system…

J: Yeah, yeah that’s right. Below the surface there’s still a very sectarian feeling and part of that is coming out of a lot of hurt. People had relatives killed or businesses damaged, so a lot of their, kind of sectarianism… A lot of our age group [Retirement age] have been damaged in one way or another but it it’s a long journey. Ceasefires and peace agreements are one thing but putting it into practice is another when you have hostile communities that don’t want to give an inch on either side and that’s a challenge.

A: And did you grow up in this city yourself?

J: Aye, just east of the city, I did indeed yeah. And I worked in the city all my life in different things during the times when there were frequent bombs. Times when you couldn’t park your car without leaving somebody sitting in it. So yeah, I was working in community relations work, in some form or another, for years and years. Eh ive seen a lot of the changes but I also know a lot of the struggles and issues that remain under the surface. Yeah it is a transformed city but its got a long way to go. We have this idealistic thing that somehow or another every other city, including Amsterdam, is in some way peaceful which I know it’s not.

A: [Laughs] Exactly, especially you can see that with the recent elections there.

J: Yeah! Absolutely, absolutely! So, yeah, some people my age want to go back to the good pre-trouble days but the world has moved on.

A: And what was it like to grow up in it originally? I know you were to the east of the city but still…

J: There was a lot of restrictions and nigh ttime entertainment was very, very sparse. There was hardly anybody around. There was also very few from outside Northern Ireland working here. I mean this lady (Eastern European woman serving us coffee at the time) wouldn’t have worked here 30 years ago, it was just too adversarial. So a very restricted world of where you could go and who you could meet. Of course you went to a Protestant or Catholic school. I worked in a ship yard that was seen as a Protestant enclave, and I suppose it was, but I made some great friends with Catholic guys who worked there. So there are these, kind of, headline views but there are also those just below the surface, kind of, views.

A: That’s the thing that I find very interesting about Belfast is that I feel there is nobody that has ever tried to bring together the working class together on both sides. Obviously there is the identity politics, fair enough, I’m just surprised that the people on both sides of the peace walls are living in the same conditions…

J: That’s right, but they believe that they are not. They believe the other side are doing better and that is an important belief. Even in the peace process there was the belief that the other side were getting more than we are, and somehow things are skewed against you. But thinking back then, there was always the fear factor of coming into Belfast. Generally on the main routes there were army checkpoints, your car could be pulled over and you’d be delayed. You know it was always a complete hassle. A lot of the out of city towns did better than the city itself. I suppose I can remember the hunger strikes. I was working in the city at the time during the hunger strikes with young people and it was a very, very tense time. You wouldn’t be able to come put on the radio in a hotel like this because it would make people nervous.

A: You felt that if the radio was on you couldn’t escape it [the conflict]?

J: Yeah, and it raised the tension unnecessarily. I was working in the city centre at the time when they tried to assassinate Gerry Adams [head of Sinn Féin, political wing of IRA]. He

91 was in court one day and he was being driven away and *bum * *bum* *bum* they fired shots, he was hit but he went to hospital and was ok. But there were all these sorts of things happening, people just came in to the city and left afterwards, no nightlife or anything. It was a dead city at night. So they were dark, difficult times and you sort of look back and wonder how did you survive? Human spirit is a wonderful thing.

A: And did you ever feel that a certain way became the norm?

J: Well if you travelled outside, every summer I went to a European country, you knew it wasn’t normal. The kind of searches that are in every airport now were here in the 70’s anyway, and the likes of Americans wouldn’t tolerate that sort of nonsense, but now they do now… (Laughs)…Em I suppose I had a belief that my children would never see peace, but more than likely my grandchildren. But now we have it, a good measure of peace anyway and it all came very quickly in some ways. One of Clinton’s first visits to the city, in the centre here, I was in the city that night and it was a wonderful occasion with thousands of people outside City Hall. It was ringed however by Land Rover’s [the jeeps], which are painted white now for the police but they were grey in those days. To see people standing up on them and clapping on these vehicles of hate was great feeling. So there was a number of good things that happened. I attended a number of peace rallies outside city hall, normally after an atrocity or 2 or 3 people killed and there would be a peace rally. There would be people at the front condemning this, as if somehow these “terrorists” were parachuted in from another planet…when in fact they were all around us. Many of them went to our churches, our youth clubs, our schools. We have kind of your father growing tomatoes in a greenhouse and every year they grow up and then they wilt away, or the tomatoes don’t form. You have to get rid of the soil and that’s what was needed here. The soil in which people were growing in, their homes, their churches, their schooling, their community infrastructure all of that made the terrorists. So it wasn’t them, it was us.

A: It was the atmosphere in which was created?

J: Yeah. Now the trade unions tried to bring people together and cross the divide and in many ways they held the work places together in some ways… Although you weren’t allowed to talk about politics and you weren’t allowed to talk about sport. So what were people meant to talk about, but those were the rules. So the trade unions, in some respect, kind of held things a bit from completely disintegrating.

A: But there was no improvement?

J: Just holding the thing together, that’s right.

A: It was the band aid rather than stitching up the wound?

J: Absolutely! And all the time you were hoping that politics would get a grip, or some new thinking would get a grip but it took a long, long time. But they were difficult days. Then I began working as a mediator.

A: That’s right, when did you start that?

J: Eh… 88’ or 89’…

A: And how did you get into that?

J: I had been in working in the city centre, the next street over by city hall in a youth project. It was open during the day and during the night and would have attracted people from all areas across the city. So I did that for about 11 years but I needed to branched out and had the opportunity to go to the States for a year and so I gave up my job. There was my wife and 3 small children and we went off to the States but with no job back here but at least knowing we could look after ourselves over there. And em so we did some re-training over there, I did mediation training, young offender training, restorative justice work, and I actually did some of that work over there with others in communities and supervised by others. So, I came back here [Belfast] thinking that we should get mediation going, and unbeknownst to me there were 2 or 3 other people who were looking to get something going who had trained over in the west coast of the States. I had been on the east coast. But anyway, we got together and we established ‘Mediation Northern Ireland’, a small outfit with no money, part time secretary, and some of us started to do training in mediation and deliver training to teachers, social workers, probation officers, house officials, some police got into it and then it became…well we then got money to employ staff.

A: And where did the funding come from? Did the donors come from the city itself or from outside?

J: All from outside! Ireland fund, European money, Canada… and you couldn’t take money here because you’d be compromised.

A: There’d be strings attached?

J: Well you’d be compromised. You know, if you got the money from Belfast City council in those days, that was Protestant dominated, that would be Protestant money. So you had to get your money from outside.

A: And did people come to you or did you go out and seek the money, or was it indeed both?

J: Well, it was a bit of both. In the early days it was more going out, but the first mediation coarse we ran at Queens University, it was extramural, an evening course and it was advertised and some people read the brochure and came along thinking it was meditation.

A: (Laughs) Oh really?

J: Aye, you see mediation was so new, it was a term that wasn’t used, it wasn’t used at all. And some people came thinking it was meditation. Anyway so, that kind of coarse and then some of the big institutions asked for mediation training for their staff, you know heaps of teachers in the schools, housing officials, whatever. Then some of the big universities, Queens and Ulster University asked for mediation training in their social work. It got some traction then, but as regards to cases, mediation cases we did some neighbourhoods cases such as people not liking trees growing up, that sort of stuff. Then we got into some of the parade disputes, and that’s where we got real traction and politicians started to use the term ‘mediation’. “We need mediation here”. They didn’t mean an organisation, they meant a concept. But of course, most people thought that …well, of course there’s two sides and the mediator is going to come in here and hear this side, and hear this side and then decide who wins.

A: Ok, so a general misunderstanding of the whole concept?

J: Yeah, mediation is about you two working on your dispute and we’ll help you from the outside, so it’s [the outcome] in your hands. So it got traction then, the parade disputes and then we started to work below the radar, with politicians, with political activists, prisoners, former prisoners, INLA [Irish National Liberation Army], IRA [Irish Republican Army], Loyalist paramilitaries, police, senior police who weren’t allowed to talk to the IRA. So you had to work below the surface, and we were able to build up a credibility of being able to introduce people to one another and not making a big deal of it. And then, we got funds from the United States and to take groups of community activists to the U.S., along with some senior police for some training.

A: So getting them out of the area?

J: Yeah! So we did that, I don’t know how many times, possibly 10 or 12 times, funded by U.S. aid.

A: And for how long were these trips?

J: Those would be a week long, or 12 days. Atlanta, New York, San Diego…emm Seattle. Not that the police and community activists could teach us anything as our community sector was more developed than theirs. But it was about those people being brought, strategically chosen, that we brought together, developing relationships.

A: Putting a name on each other rather than just being ‘the other’?

J: Absolutely, absolutely! So all of that! It took a long time I can tell you building up trust to do all that. We had some of your politicians. Your present Taoiseach [Irish Prime Minister] up here when he was just an ordinary TD [Member of Irish Parliament], with about 10 others and we had loyalist politicians for a weekend, let me think… O’Keeffe. I can’t remember, but anyway, spending the weekend together talking and meeting one another. In one workshop for instance we got various politicians from the Republic to “think exactly what you’re people think of those loyalists”, you know, “how do they look at them?”, “what do they call them?”, “what do they see in them?”. And then we said to the Loyalist politicians to develop their thinking towards this crowd from the Republic. “How are they viewed in your community?”, “what’s their aims?”, and then we would present to one another [their views]. That was before the ceasefire.

A: Oh really? Ok.

J: Oh yeah! And it was all very below the radar, very secret, very private. Whenever the ceasefires came and these boys appeared on tv, on the same chat-shows together on first name terms, I know where that arose. This learnt them in a pub late on a Friday or Saturday night over a few pints and talking. So there you are, that was mediation.

A: Yeah, I agree with that method. Personally, my own view is that you need to get people together, even if people are formally brought together, it is should be in an informal setting, it needs to be somewhere where they can relax away from a setting where they feel the need to show off in front of someone. They don’t as such need to

95 drop their ‘front’ but where they can view the other as a human being, rather than as ‘the enemy’ or ‘the other’.

J: Yeah, some of those politicians were risking their political futures, because if that had been known…

A: They would have been discredited?

J: Absolutely, absolutely! Anyway but all of that takes an awful long time in a very divided community in which violence is still going on, people are still being assassinated, bombs are still going off. To do all that…well it’s easy to do now, but in those days it was a very, very difficult job, who do you trust and who do you not.

A: And did you ever find that there were people, after you had worked with them, that you couldn’t trust them, especially after putting a huge amount of effort in? Or did you find that generally in the most part, that if they gave you there word on something, which it would indeed stand? I know it’s hard to speak in generalised terms…

J: Well you got to know them, and you got to know the ones that you could trust your life to, and you got to know others that you needed to be a bit more careful with. I suppose it depends also where in the organisation you’re working, so say if you’re working for change in the police, which desperately needed change, as the Guards [Republic of Ireland’s Police Force] need change at the moment, but anyway, you don’t work with the lowest people. You have to work with the highest, and you have to work with not only the highest but those who are going to be the highest in a year or twos time. So you have the pick your people and that would be the same for paramilitary organisations. Another piece of work we did was in the Maze prison where we would…we as an organisation here had good connections with international peace builders. These people were working in Colombia, in the Basque country, Philippians, so every now and again they would swing through Northern Ireland and we would arrange a day workshop in the Maze prison, now not for all the prisoners as we couldn’t bring them all together, but we’d give the IRA an hour, or an hour and a half, the INLA an hour and a half, the UDA [Ulster Defence Army] an hour…and the prison officers an hour and a half, senior staff. They were in prison as much as the others. So again they were all below the radar but what you were doing was sowing the seeds of change. Now, that was big learning experience for us as you were going into the Provos [Provisional IRA] and they were technical, they had read books that these people had written, they knew about the

96 groups in Colombia or the Basque country, they were up to speed and they knew the questions to ask. And then the Loyalists, they were, well it’d be wrong to say none of the were politically motivated but most of them criminals than politically motivated. So that would really be the difference between the two.

A: The ideology behind them…

J: Yeah, anyway that was interesting work and hard work.

A: And how would you judge success with that? I’m aware that that may be an extremely hard question to answer. I could be wrong but I get the impression in mediation that it’s not always going to work, in fact the majority of the time it probably won’t…

J: Well you learn, you learn from that. You learn what works and what doesn’t and why it didn’t work, and kind of balance that in any future work. Judging success is very difficult. I suppose there’s a number of measures of success. The relationships with those prisoners once they’re out of prison, you’re relationship with them and if they want to keep contact with you, so that’s a big one. Maybe 20 years later, where are some of those now, well actually some of them are in the government here. Emm, but there were dark times as well, times where people were being murdered on the streets. These murders were being ordered guys inside prison, so to think somehow they’re in prison and out of reach…

A: Not a chance!

J: (Laughs) If anything they’ve only gone up in the pecking order.

A: And would it be fair to say that in mediation you have to speak to ‘the worst of the worst’, because that’s how you make change. You have to speak to the people who are causing the trouble.

J: Yeah. At a time whenever speaking to them makes you a kind of a suspect, we have the news today that Ian Paisley’s phone had been tapped by the like MI5 and all that. Well he would have known that (Laughs)… all of our phones were tapped. My phone, everyone’s phone.

A: It was just expected that you were being listened to?

J: Yeah! Yeah!

A: And did growing up in this city help you or hinder you in your work?

J: Helps. But the biggest help…like yourself, I’m from a divided family. My grandmother was a Catholic and my grandfather was a Protestant. They had 11 children, one of which was my mother who was brought up Protestant. She had 6 brothers who were brought up Catholic.

A: Oh really?

J: So the girls were brought up Protestant and the men were brought up Catholic. Now all of them grew up…all within that tradition, Protestant or Catholic, and then set up families all within that tradition, so that’s the biggest strength for me. I have a feeling and I have an understanding and an appreciation of the other side. Whereas if you’ve just been on one side you don’t have any feel for the other side.

A: I think that’s certainly one thing I understand about the Unionist community here in Belfast, and correct me if I’m wrong, but the way that they see it is that if they let their guard down at all, the end result will be a united Ireland. Essentially, if we remain divided we keep Northern Ireland as part of the UK. I don’t know where we can go from there because…well maybe you’ve an idea how it’s possible to improve from here on out. Has it reached a stage where its stagnate and will remain this way?

J: Well the new…the new…piece in the jigsaw is the Brexit. The important election is not the last one but the next one because whoever we elect here has to deal with Brexit and the implications of it. So things are always changing and never stay the same. Like ordinary conflict never stays the same, you think it’s gone quiet but it hasn’t it’s just grown a bit.

A: It’s just latent and is waiting to manifest itself…

J: That’s right, that’s right! So, Brexit is the new dynamic and many of the DUP [Democratic Unionist Party] types will be very happy with Brexit and it strengthens their…you know…

A: Fortress Britain mentality?

J: Yeah, and also the division in the island. “We’re different from the South.” Whereas for the last 20 years it hasn’t really mattered.

A: And what do you think will be the implications? I know it’s very up in the air at the moment. Personally, I don’t understand how we can work around the border issue.

Particularly because many of the people who voted for Brexit were all about the strengthening of borders. I don’t know how you can get around it without a hard border.

J: Yeah, I don’t know either. I don’t know.

A: It’s worrying...

J: It is, it is. Because it isn’t just a border on the island, it’s the border between the UK and Europe. So I don’t know. It’s a big disappointment…

A: They say it’s going to be at least 3 years, I’m still unsure it will happen although it’s been triggered…

J: The other dynamic is Scotland. Hard-line Unionists here have always looked to Scotland as their brothers. There’s more guys come over from Scotland for the 12th July [Unionist Marching Season], there’s more guys go from here to support Rangers, you know all that…big connection with Scotland, especially since it’s so close to us too. It was easier to get from Antrim to Scotland than from here to Dublin or from Antrim to Dundalk. It was straight across on the boat and you were there. There’s a big connection and relationship with Scotland. Now if Scotland were to break away from the UK, which is highly likely, that’s another new dimension to this whole thing. What would happen to the Protestant psyche, more insecurity I would guess. Anyway…

A: It’s all a bit up in the air isn’t it?

J: Absolutely, it’s like in last June when we voted on Brexit, we through all the pieces up in the air and had no clue where they were going to land.

A: I think what scares me is that there seems to be zero plans…

J: That’s right!

A: And it’s such a shame that something like this has come out of a political move, a selfish move by Cameron to get rid of the UKIP [UK Independence Party] vote or the more conservative element of the Conservatives.

J: That’s right, that’s right! And to silence, for once, his own party. But…I don’t…It’s just…you know about the whole financial transfer to the DUP coming up to Brexit. By law

99 the UK parties can only so much money in an election, they can only use so much. And they had used up all their money with the Conservatives. So, they gived the DUP half a million a year, and what did they use it for? Well it was probably conditional that they used it this way. They used it for the head front cover of the London Evening Standard, the Evening Standard in Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool on the day before the election, telling people how to vote, and why they should vote for Brexit.

A: Oh really?

J: Yeah, and that was all financed from Belfast, money that had been given. That only became public knowledge about a month or so ago. So it kind of shows you the type of manipulation.

A: From a load of different sides.

J: Yeah, yeah.

A: Right, and bringing it back to what I am going to be looking at here, which is a lot more bottom up change. The reason I picked boxing was because, as you say, it’s a working class, niche, sport [J: That’s right] in a certain way which has a warrior aspect about it. You can go in and nobody is going to question your masculinity [J: That’s right], because you’re going in and actually putting yourself in physical harm, and so is the person on the other side. Now, I’m under no illusions as to believe that it [boxing] could become a particularly big thing, it way grow a little but it is always going to be a complementary element to something else. Now the reason that looking I’m looking at it is not just for here but for other countries. Ever since the Millennium Development Goals, there’s been a big push towards sport as a form of conflict transformation. That term may not be used here in Belfast as much.

J: We would use community relations, and that would be the term here.

A: Exactly, is there a reason for that?

J: Well because that the way it was viewed here from the late 60’s, communities had no relationship, so there needed to be relations. There was a whole government body set up here called the Community Relations Council that still exists and the offices are just up the road here, I’ll point it out to you. So, they were given a block of money by the British, and they

100 and the Community Relations Council divided that money up and gave it to good projects around Northern Ireland for bringing people together. So that’s how that term came about.

*Joe has to answer phonecall.*

J: So that whole community relations was a whole business here, big money over many, many years and indeed politicians felt, here, that they were threatened by it because you had community activists, who were building effective good community work, some of it cross- community and some in their own communities, but educating their people to reach across. So good people, good motivated people were working in that sector and politicians were getting the guff, you know, a bit annoyed and feeling a bit threatened and in some respects maybe still do. I think though the hiatus has passed in that manner, so that’s the whole community relations. What I’m interested in in the boxing is, obviously it’s a working class sport, in working class areas i.e. segregated areas, so my question is: Do some of the clubs have both young Protestant and Catholic young fighters coming to it and if so, how to they encourage and develop that? And the other question is: When they have competitions, one club against another, how do they work with the relationships. In other words, do they just…this is the danger, you just ignore that and that doesn’t count, we’re just boxers, we’re not Protestant boxers, Catholic boxers. That’s all great in theory but in practice… (Laughs). In practice that’s the issue, because it used to be…say the police. You know, you’d go into a police station and you’re going on duty, you’re all Protestant. They’d say “Oh no I’m not a Protestant policeman, I’m a Catholic policeman”, and somehow you take your coat off and that’s your civilian life there, then putting on the uniform. Well actually, in theory that sounds great, but actually you have the mind-set of a Protestant. And it if the right buttons are pushed, that will come out, and I believe same with the boxers. So those are questions for you to go deeper in.

A: So I know the second boxing club I will be going to later on, the City of Belfast Boxing Academy, the guy who runs that is Unionist, however I know that they have started to integrate Catholics into it in the last few years…

J: Oh that’s terrific, that’s terrific!

A: The area it is in is just south of the ring road, the Newtownards road, which is your typical Unionist streets with Union Jacks out flying and that. So I think it’s interesting that he’s actually gone for it, and apparently he’s had some success. I know that he won

101 the Spirit of Sport award last year for community work here in the city, and he’s actually started to bring in young women into it as well as a lot of the time they’ve been ignored [J: That’s right, that’s right]. So that’s approach to it and apparently he’s having a lot of success. What I’ve purposely decided to do here is that the two clubs I’ve picked at the moment, they are clubs who’s boxing will fight under the Ulster boxing structure [Later discovered City of Belfast Boxing Academy removed themselves from Irish Athletic Boxing Association and now remain in limbo]. There are no initiatives between the two. I originally had the idea of looking at the initiatives and seeing what was going on. There are a few initiatives. However, I find it’s an unnatural setting i.e. people who are involved in that are purely for that reason of doing that. I’m more interested in seeing the actual natural setting and how does it actually work. Also, whether the respect comes through the sport or how does the mind-set change. [J: Yes, yeah]. Going in at the moment, I’m looking at contact theory, i.e. by having contact between one another, that doesn’t have to be physical, but that it can change ones mind-set. But I’m interested to see how they view it and I’m going to speak to coaches, but also the boxers themselves. I know it’s hard to prove effectiveness, but I’m interested to hear their stories. This can be stories and attitudes beforehand and has that changed.

J: That’s good, that’s really good.

A: Is it through boxing, the setting, or…

J: Let me ask you about, you say the, there’s an Ulster or Northern Ireland Federation?

A: There’s a boxing council yeah but not a separate association.

J: And there’s one in the Republic I presume? And I suppose I want to say, what connection is there between the two and how can community relations work in the North be strengthened if there were more connections with the South. What does it feel like for a boxer from Newtownards going to fight in Dundalk or Drogheda? Can this myth of ‘the other’ be disbursed through boxing? Those are big challenges but it’s great that you’re doing it.

A: There’s something there and it’s something different. I spoke on the phone with the old head of the Irish Athletic Boxing Association, and when people get to the Olympics, he’d of been over that [But also general boxing on island of Ireland]. He told me that they have a great relationship the British boxing Council, at that level, and he was up in Belfast last week supervising an event and he said it went great. He told me that the

102 issue arises at a lot of the lower level amateur, which is what I’m looking at. He said that there is a big issue with the funding, like you said earlier about having conditions or strings attached. An example is funding going to Unionist clubs out in the countryside and that’s where issues arise, while in the cities at times it is a lot better.

J: And so, this is where, because of the assembly we have, we have ministries as part of that. Where in the past the Community Relations Council would have given money, they would have looked with community relations eyes, but the Minister doesn’t as he’s from one party.

*Joe has to answer phone call*

A: I don’t want to keep you for too much longer, but the question I want to ask you before we wrap up is, in this broader understanding of conflict transformation, and in my opinion this is where cross-community boxing falls into the bracket of [J: Yeah], at least in some small sort of way [J: Yes}. Is there something certain things that have a level of success more than others? Do you feel that this kind of unofficial method of boxing as a sport is as effective or more effective than say bringing people together officially in a community hall?

J: No…no I think conflict transformation needs to happen in every area of society, and there is a role for bringing people together in a community hall and talking about it. But theres also a role for every other section of society, be it churches, youth work, be it gardening clubs or whatever. I think in a divided community like this, all of us have got to look at our weekly, our monthly, annual schedules and ask ourselves “where do I meet ‘the other’?” “Where do I healthy interact with ‘the other’ and build credible relationships with ‘the others’?” If we’re only meeting with our which is the product of housing, if we’re only meeting with our own then we’re going to perpetuate this to the next generation. But just a wee [small] guideline. They started integrated education here about 40 years ago. The oldest school just celebrated 40 years, the first integrated school, and when they tracked that high school through young people through to the first cohort going to university, and they interviewed that cohort into their relationships with ‘the other’ over the years, they found that they were no more integrated than those who had gone to separate schools and they only had partial contact. The reason for that is the home. The home has the most profound effect on young people. So just for boxing to bring young people together, and to box, and have a good time, and to shake hands, and “I’ll see you at the next competition”, is an important first step but it is indeed only a first step. (Laughs)

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A: I think that’s one thing I’m interested to ask people is that it is all well and good being integrated in the space of the boxing club, but does that transfer to the outside world outside the club. But as you say people are going to go back to their home, back to their neighbourhood…

J: That’s right! It’s when the parents of the boxer meet the parents of the other ‘wee lads’, and when the parents go out and have a pint together, and when they arrange to see one another between competitions then they’re moving forward. But look we’re talking about the new [inaudible] multi-generational work and there’s no magic button. People used to think that if we just educated children together everything would be alright, well actually it isnt alright, we know it isn’t. It needs to be a whole….emm…

A: A whole co-ordinated effort [J: Absolutely] in every element of society.

J: Absolutely, absolutely! Everything, you know, universities. We’re sitting here in the shadow of Queen’s University. They wouldn’t touch community relations when the violence was going on, they wouldn’t hear of it! Wouldn’t hear of it! And now of course they have a whole conflict transformation department and now there’s money in it. But they wouldn’t use their…their kind of strategic position in society to promote good relations that was desperately needed. (Laughs)

A: And the final question I have to ask you, as I’ve taken up enough of your time, I’d like to hear your opinion on when in the North here that I should avoid the term ‘reconciliation’ at all costs. I feel that people have very different views on what reconciliation means. I know you worked in Nepal and that too and I’m sure to speak about reconciliation in many different societies it means very different things. Whether it be monetarily or here it may be community relations. And should this term be avoided?

J: Community relations?

A: Well or reconciliation because people have different understandings of what it means.

J: Yeah, and it’s an old term now, it’s a reminder of the past and people want to keep viewing the future. They do emotionally want to view the future but their hearts are somewhere else. Yeah, those old terms like community relations and reconciliation are old terms and there is a

104 need for some new creative thinking in what we call things like that. Community cohesion is a term that came out of the UK in some of the race disputes in towns like Burnley. They talk about community cohesion and that to me is a richer kind of term as cohesion means bringing things together.

A: And is there sort of effort to try and sort of rebrand as such?

J: No, no. The political parties are only in power when there is division, they thrive on it. What future for Sinn Féin and the DUP if there was really integration and people weren’t voting tribally (Laughs)

A: And to be this is where I find it amazing that there hasn’t been another big party spring up. There’s the Alliance but they’ve had very little success.

J: They’ve had partial success, very, very difficult and that’s an indication of how things are.

A: It reflects society at the end of the day.

J: Absolutely, absolutely. But yeah, I wish you well and I honestly think it’s a great project and I’d really like to read it. I think it’s a great project and it’d be great, I mean I don’t know who mentors the boxing clubs and to see the strategic position they have in the community. I suppose in some respects the people like McGuigan do that you know, but there needs to be more, Carl Frampton and the like. Down in East Belfast by the way, down the Newtownards Road there’s a leisure centre called Avoniel Leisure Centre, just before you go into that there’s a whole mural of about 5 or 6 houses with little pictures of former boxers from Belfast who won…

A: World titles…

J: Not just world titles but more kind of local titles. Some of them from that area but not all of them from East Belfast. But it’d be a good picture for your work. It’s near the junction with the Albertbridge Road. I think it’s called Belfast Boxing History and people like me didn’t know there were so many from…

A: Well it’s a source of pride for people from the area.

J: Absolutely! And those who work in that area are trying to divert from the paramilitary heroes to this sort of heroes.

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A: Well anyway, it’s been a pleasure speaking to you and I really appreciate your time. [J: No problem at all] And I’ll let you know how I get on in my work.

J: Yeah, do, do.

A: Thanks again Joe.

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Appendix C – Interview 2

Interview with Terry McCorran – Head Coach and Founder of City of Belfast Boxing Academy in East Belfast (Traditionally Unionist)

*Once again, due to small talk the interview starts slightly scattered.*

T: [In relation to amateur boxing]… I don’t even think boxing will be in the Olympics after Tokyo.

A: Why do you believe that?

T: Because the greed at the top level, at the world body and they’ve just been audited by PWC and they were found to have had 18 million dollars missing…

A: Oh really?

T: And they didn’t declare it. I don’t understand the international banking system but when a big company has big losses apparently it has to be declared, and because they were based in Switzerland they thought they didn’t have to…they thought they could get away with it, but apparently Switzerland is now trying to clean up its banking.

A: I actually hear that about some other type of business that were caught in the clean up…

T: They’re trying to clean up the whole system. So they are now investigating them to find out why they didn’t declare the 18 million dollars. Is that just an oversight? And then it turns out as well that the President Dr. Woo, by all accounts, signed for a loan from Azerbaijan for 10 million dollars and nobody can find it, nobody knows where it is. He saying ‘I didn’t sign for it, they forged my name’. [A: *Laughs*]. You see what happened in Rio with the Olympics…

A: You could see it with the judges, who were a disaster, and then just surrounding the Olympics itself, like the building of stadiums, everything seemed to be shady, allegedly ‘brown envelopes’.

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T: Absolutely, and if you look at the World Body [of boxing], now they’re trying to bring professionals back into the sport that were amateur. Well how do you get someone who is going to school or working 5 days a week and trains 2 or 3 nights a week, or 5 days a week plus trying to work, going in against a professional. I mean what they’re trying to say is Floyd Mayweather could have went to the Rio Olympics and you’re thinking, who’s going to get in to a ring against Floyd Mayweather?

A: Exactly! Some lad from out here in the streets? *Laughs*

T: How is that actually doing anything for the amateur sport? All it is doing is bringing in money at the top level and it’s only the top level that spends it, because we’re not getting any of the money. So, it sort of, at the minute there’s an awful lot of uncertainty about which direction it’s going. And the WBC who cover it are probably the most prestigious body, they’ve just started a world amateur body, they think they’re out now to take on what was the old amateur boxing. But what they’re saying is no, were putting headgears back on because they’re taking headgears away again. And we’ve just seen how many people have been injured. Now boxing, I defend the sport but accidents do happen. We’ve just had the first death in the amateur sport for many, many years, a young boy in London who was only 17. An elite boxer who died and the referee held up the other boys hand and the boy collapsed in front of him after the fight, fighting with no headgear. And I had a quick survey in here with parents of boxers and I asked them would they let their children box if they weren’t using headgear. The answer was ‘Absolutely not, you’ve sold us on the fact of the safety!’ And I said ‘That’s all I’m asking’, I said ‘It isn’t me, I just want to know that if anybody comes to me I can say I’m keeping the head gear’. And if the world body comes to me and says we have to leave the world body, as in we don’t get accepted by the world body because of it, we’ll just keep on boxing until we get something sorted out. Safety is premier, not even just for people at the top. You know because we aren’t given any money.

A: And why should you accept that and put people at risk for little reward…

T: We could have a vote in the clubs on whether to take headgear out. Why should we pay them and dance to their tune. There’s a big thing in the America in the NFL with the footballers who’re suing the helmet companies due to concussion. So obviously boxing is going to have head trauma, and so if we can make it as safe as possible, why would you take that safety precaution out?

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A: It makes zero sense.

T: Absolutely! I mean I’ve talked to the children and the parents and I would ask the parents, ‘What’s the first thing you do when your child goes out goes out on a bike, what’s the first thing you tell them to put on?’ A cycling helmet on. I mean how many cyclists do you now see in Ireland without a cycling helmet on?

A: Very, very few.

T: Very, very few! It used to be that you’d never see one, now everyone has come around to the idea that if you bump your head you wanted the protection.

A: It’s been drilled in over the years, it’s the same reaction as to drink driving is now. Whereas in the past there would have been a blind eye turned to it.

T: Yeah, and I think taking head gear out of it and extending the rounds and stuff like that. The people who attend school and college and work 5 days a week, they can’t train like a professional. A professional maybe boxes 2 or 3 times a year. Top boxers maybe fight only twice a year, you know, Carl Frampton fights at tops twice a year. Now an amateur boxer, if they go to the European Championships could box 5 times in 11 or 12 days. That’s a lot different to a couple of times a year. So they’ve got their local championships, they’ve got Europeans, they’ve got Worlds. Now that’s a lot of head trauma, and to take out what I call a big buffer zone is dangerous. I think they’re really dabbling with things they shouldn’t be.

A: And a quick question here as well. Are the majority of people from this club from this area, or are they from all over?

T: All over! And I have people travel from [Slightly inaudible][Loughin Island] outside Downpatrick believe it or not, and Castlewellin and Glengormley, way up that direction. Quite literally all over.

A: Is that due to the fact people see the standard of the club and are willing to travel?

T: I find that people like the fact that there are no colours, and they know…I don’t advertise. All my members are through word of mouth or passed on by parents who liked the idea of it doesn’t matter if their boy or girl goes to a Catholic or Protestant school, an integrated school or whatever other type of school. When they come in here they’re just a member of the club. What I tell people is ‘You leave your politics and your religion at the gate and if you want to

109 pick it up on the way out that’s entirely up to you!’ When you come in here we’re all just a boxing club. It’s other people that have named it [the club] ‘The Family’. When they come in here people have said they’ve felt like they’re part of a family. Everybody does be saying ‘Hiya, Hiya, Hiya’. There’s no…sort of hierarchy in here. Somebody who comes in to keep fit is treated exactly the same as someone who is boxing for a championship. The person that’s fighting for the championship will get extra training outside of the normal hours most likely. But on that night there’s no, ‘I can’t talk to him because he’s a boxer’, we don’t believe in that. You’ll find our boxers will help the non-boxers, and our better boxers will help develop the boxers below them to try and bring them on. Everybody is out to look after each other. We don’t do egos in here. Don’t get me wrong there are plenty of characters and I’m terrible with names so everyone gets a nickname because that’s the only way I can do it. And I gave some people some terrible nicknames for a while until I got their proper names right. They all take it though…

A: Because they know it’s all a bit of banter…

T: It’s the banter! And people would say to me, ‘Terry, I went to a boxing club for 3 months and all I was told was to go over there and hit the bag’. You come in here and on the first night everybody in their own time walked up and said ‘Hi I’m Ruahri, hi I’m Stephen, hi I’m Fiona, you know Georgia’. You know, what’s the craic? [Irish expression meant in this case that this was an unusual scenario in other clubs]. Our club isn’t about building champions. I we get them, we get them and it’s the icing on the cake. The main ingredients of the cake are the people.

A: You could say that having a bad egg in there would ruin the cake.

T: Well it’s also the club’s philosophy that we build people and not worry if…like I’m not really worried if I never have a champion. As long as everybody walks out that door at the end of the night and they feel better than when they walked in, and if they’ve gotten something out of it, like if their mood has lifted, they feel fitter, whatever it may be. As long as they benefit…

A: Or you improve them in some way…

T: Yes. And with the young ones it’s about trying to get them to get the maximum potential out of life. I have so many young people come in here from this area [Unionist stronghold] who have no other ambition in life than to be on the dole because their Grandad was on the

110 dole, my dad was on the dole. It’s all they know. I’ve now got people in their sixth year in school [Final Year] who were going to leave school .Now they’re going onto college. I’m working with people in *inaudible*[think a local college] and I’m trying to get people placements in there through their apprentice scheme for accountancy. What try to say to the government, and keep trying to say to the government is there’s no point throwing money at an area with your ideas. Go to that area and this is how I think I approved…people say to me what’s your success down there? I said because I try to ask people ‘what do they want?’, I don’t tell them what they are getting. I come to them with an idea, I get a couple of local people in and say this is my idea. ‘I want to open a boxing club, and I don’t want it to just be a boxing club, I’d like it to be a bit more’. Because I had coached in other clubs and I had seen people made to feel worthless because they couldn’t box, or someone thought they couldn’t box.

A: Ok, so it was all about the actual talent of the person? If you weren’t going to hit a certain level, there was more interest to stick them in a corner…

T: Yeah, stick them in a corner, and I thought to myself that I don’t like that. And so an idea came to me about starting my own club and then I thought ‘hell no I couldn’t do that’ and then I did. I started off, I bought one bag, and one speed ball, and I pinched four traffic cones off the roadworks and put them in the middle of the room and put a rope around them and that was our very first boxing ring.

A: Really? It must give you immense pride to get from that to where you are now?

T: I don’t know. A lot of people say that, I don’t really…sometimes I do have stop and look around me and think ‘bloody hell look where we are’ because I’m just so busy always trying to do the day to day.

A: Of going day to day to day…and sometimes you’ve to just stop yourself [T: Yeah] and actually appreciate…

T: I got the Sunday Life Award there last year…

A: I saw that, that’s originally how I found you.

T: And I got the Mark Pollock award for hope as well and I’m the only person to win both. I’ll be honest, I went along to the Sunday life awards and I got nominated by the parents and some of the children in here, and they didn’t even tell me. I got a phone call this girl saying

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I’m from the Sunday life and I’m going…[gives bemused look] ‘I think you may have got the wrong number’. Then she says ‘Terry McCorran, City of Belfast Boxing Academy?’ And I’m going ‘Yeah?’ She says ‘No, no, no you’ve been shortlisted’ and I’m going ‘Ehhhhhhh right…’ And I says ‘Nobody told me’, and she goes ‘[high pitched] Nobody told you, not even the parents?’ So I went along on the night, I wasn’t even going to go because we weren’t told up until the night whether we’d won it or not. I had what I thought was a horrendous cold or flu, and I felt absolutely lousy but I went to it anyway, couldn’t eat the diner. I just felt so ill and had five jugs of water.

A: Five jugs of water?

T: Aye, five jugs of water on the night, the sweat was pouring out of me. The way I had watched it was that all the tables were getting one winner, or that was how it seemed to be. So at my table the girl sort of next to me had won an award, just before. So I laid back in my seat and went ‘ahhh great [relieved]’ as i hadn’t of thought of anything to say, nothing. So I thought ‘panic over’. We’ll see who gets it. So I was looking around the room and they went ‘Terry McCorran has won’. ‘Ohhhh hells bells!’ The only thing I can remember is walking up on the platform on the stage and I was thinking to myself try not to trip over. Everybody had finished dinner and their legs were all sticking out and all I can remember was trying to keep my eyes up but glancing down once so often so I don’t fall as it was being filmed for TV. I’m thinking…

A: You’ll never live this one down!

T: You know, just don’t end up on my backside. So I got up and you turn around and the lights hit you. The guy from UTV spoke to me and my whole mouth dried up and my tongue stopped ehhh, and people say to me that I don’t know how to shut up. But I was like…[makes a freeze face emotion and dry mouth noise].

A: [Laughs] The first time they ever heard you quiet.

T: Yeah, and yeah. The interviewer says to me, ‘I was told you’re not the type to be speechless’, and I went, ‘…well…I am now.’ And then I caught a glimpse of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, as in Arlene Foster and Martin McGuinness. And I’d had had a grant taken off me here. So I seen them and I thought I’m going to go for it. I sort of forgot about the live TV and I sort of thought, ‘while I’m here I’ve had a grant taken off me so I see the First Minister and Deputy First Minister so maybe you can maybe pull a few

112 strings while you are sitting here having a wee laugh and drink together. Maybe you can get me my grant for the young people to get this club sorted out.’ And a year later…

A: You had this [the renovated clubhouse]. Putting them on the spot, in front of a big crowd, and the TV…

T: Well I had to. And the thing was they put it all out on the TV, I thought they’d of cut the thing out. They put it out on the TV! [Laughs]

A: And you’ve had illnesses before correct?

T: I’ve had a number of heart attacks, I’m retired from work. This is my hobby. But I’ve had a few heart attacks yeah. But the night of the award, when I thought I had the flu. Well it turned out that within seven days of getting the award I ended up in hospital with pneumonia. I was in for ten days. I was way more ill than I had recognised. I missed the London Olympics which I had bought tickets to go see Katie Taylor. I’ve met Katie a few times and once I knew that Katie was in the Olympics I had to reserve. I took a [inaudible, possibly septic] throat and I was in isolation in the hospital for the whole Olympics. And my TV broke in the wee side ward and they couldn’t let the engineer in because I had such a highly contagious infection so I missed the whole god damn Olympics. But I refused to sell the tickets and I got them framed.

A: That’s fantastic, and now it seems as if women’s boxing is now starting to…

T: At long last!

A: I feel with Katie and the likes of Nicola Adams, who is fighting next week.

T: Yeah and even Barry McGuigan out of the blue, who was really against women’s boxing. Barry McGuigan has now come out and said ‘I’m thinking of signing a female boxer.’ So, we’re trying to work out because Savannah Marshall from England is turning pro with a couple of other GB girls and we’re doing quite well, so I think Barry might try and tap into some of that talent.

A: It really is important for the women’s game that there are a few icons and I’ve noticed you’ve started to do a bit of work towards the female side of the sport, which I found pretty unique for Belfast. In a lot of the other clubs, I’ve found that , it’s not so

113 much they don’t want female boxers but they don’t seem to know how to approach it. You seem have done a pretty good job here.

T: A lot of them don’t want them, they just don’t want them. They don’t want the hassle, they say they don’t have the changing facilities, they don’t have the toilets. I mean you can just put a lock on the doors so when someone goes in…there’s ways around it. To me if there’s a problem, there’s a way around it, they just haven’t sat and thought about it. You know what I mean? I’ve always pushed female boxing and we’re running a women’s course at the moment with twenty people on it, from 13, right through to a women in her 50’s, I haven’t asked her. That’s the age group we are covering. And at the end of it they’ll all get a pair of boxing gloves, keep mouth guards, a bit of gear and a wee kitbag. And…they don’t have to join this club. Wherever they live, I’ll let them know where their nearest club is and they’re welcome to go along there. If they won’t take them and they’re happy to travel here we’ll take you. So like I say it’s really popular. I’m tied up with 20 people but I could probably run another two or three courses. The waiting list, there are women out there who want to try the sport but aren’t been given the opportunity.

A: And do you feel there potentially more interest here in the Unionist communities, where in the Nationalist communities a lot of the young girls are into the GAA?

T: Yeah! Well, you see, I have some young girls coming in who played ladies football. I’ve said to ‘you probably think you aren’t being treated as equals in football, but I can guarantee you are two decades ahead of females in boxing’. And they are like ‘What?’ When I say then that Katie Taylor fought in Dublin, and people don’t realise this, see when Katie was fighting when the men were on, Katie had to change in toilets. They were no female changing rooms in the National Stadium in Dublin, only blue and red. So when you have a mix on, the boys get the blue and the red and…I took Fiona down who won the Irish Championship and she had to get changed and warmed up in the toilets. That’s the National Stadium in Dublin! So why would clubs want to develop female boxing, if the head body who go on about having the only national stadium for boxing in the world. Well maybe the headline should be ‘We have the only national stadium for boxing in the world, but we still don’t have women’s changing facilities’.

A: It is ridiculous in this day and age.

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T: You have quality female boxers having to go into the toilets to get changed and warm up outside the toilets while the guys have the changing rooms.

A: That is a joke in fairness.

T: An absolute joke!

A: Who’s over that down there?

T: We split from the IABA, I don’t know who’s over it down there now. We formed a Northern Irish Boxing Association.

A: Yeah I was speaking to [redacted, high IABA member] who’s high up down there…

T: Is it Pat Ryan who is running that down there now, and Curruthe brothers are in it, ones a CEO and ones in the coaching, and then Pat Ryan is the President.

A: And you guys have moved away now yeah?

T: We moved away and what we’re trying to do now is start the Northern Irish Boxing Association. It started, a few clubs joined, and what we are trying to do is bring equality right across the board, because it’s not there. There’s a myth in boxing, and it is a myth sadly, that boxing crosses all divides. It crossed all divides in certain public areas and public eyes. Underneath the surface, it doesn’t cross anything. Underneath the surface there are some very, very bitter and nasty people. I have been the victim of sectarianism, my boxers have been the victim of sectarianism. We’ve tried to report it, we were told at one stage we were rather you didn’t do this because that will destroy boxing. I thought, well maybe for the greater good we’ll keep it quiet and see what happens. But then it just got worse, and worse, and worse.

A: From the boxers or coaches or the crowd?

T: Boxers, the coaches, and I have other coaches from other clubs, and I come from a mixed family, and in fact none of them ever knew it. So they all presume, ‘Ah they are just Loyalist shite over there in East Belfast’. I don’t even class myself as a Loyalist, I’m just Terry. My grandmother and grandfather met in Trinity College Dublin while studying to be teachers. People don’t realise, people are very quickly to jump and judge. They call this a Loyalist club, but there’s only two flags you’ll see in here, one’s the Olympic flag hanging over the ring, and the other is of Katie Taylor holding the Irish tri-colour coming home from the

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Olympics in the newspaper. That’s it! I turn around and people have said to me about the flag, but no I’ve been the victim many times. I’ve been called a ‘Protestant Basterd’, excuse my language. My boxers have been called ‘Protestant Basterds’, and some of the people they were talking to they didn’t even realise were Catholic. Yeah, and our club has been accused of being a sectarian club. I had a number of people come forward, one big lad, big Ruari from Castleellen come to me, and said ‘Terry, do you want me to give a statement to the paper about this and tell them it’s a load of old rubbish? I will.’ I said ‘Ruahri, I’m not even answering it, I’m not even going to give them a story. I wouldn’t give them the pleasure of making a story out of it.’ I did go to the County Antrim Boxing Board and give them all the evidence of what had happened and they basically turned around and told me that they couldn’t do anything as the guy was speaking in a personal capacity. I said he wasn’t, I said he actually went to the Belfast Telegraph and did BBC News, he had his t-shirt on with his club on it and spoke as a coach, as a member of that club. They brushed it under the carpet and then Fiona travelled down to Dublin on the train with the Irish squad, and on her first day down there somebody looked at her straight in the face and said to her ‘what are the huns doing here?’ I had to find out what the ‘hun’ bit was about, I didn’t know, and apparently it’s a nasty term for Protestants. She was a youth worker so she was able to explain it to me, and she says ‘aye that would be a derogatory term’. So I asked her who would have said that to her and she said it was a boxer from the west from the city. She said they looked her straight in the face and said ‘what are the huns doing here?’ I asked her did she report it and she says ‘what for?’ You see this is the problem, we keep not reporting it and then when we do report it, we’re being told that it’ll ruin boxing, it’ll ruin boxing. Well where is our equality, our respect and our dignity? Why should a boxer not be allowed to wear a Northern Irish shirt? I’m not out to stop anybody wearing an Ireland shirt, in fact I’ve coached for Ireland. I coached my own boxer, Fiona, I’ve done her corner representing Ireland against the Ukraine. So why would I want to stop people boxing for Ireland. I have people in here who would gladly represent Ireland, but I also have boys and girls in here who would like to represent Northern Ireland, but they’re not allowed.

A: And you’re not able to represent GB either?

T: We have to represent Ireland or nobody! We only have one choice and under the Good Friday Agreement, or the Bad Friday Agreement as I like to call it, because anything that lets prisoners, on both sides, out onto the streets I don’t think is a good agreement, and I think I’ve been proved right when you see the money the paramilitaries have got since the Good

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Friday Agreement. They take the peace, I mean what peace have we really got? People are even getting threatened by their own.

A: Well this is it, it certainly seems the case that everything is not as rosy as it seems?

T: It’s not, you’re right.

A: I know personally, that although I live south of the border, it seems as though it is a conflict that is just latent at present and is waiting to manifest itself in some form. It may not be gun violence but certainly other areas in Belfast.

T: There’s always that…well how many people have been shot in the last six months? Kneecappings, punishment shootings are starting to come back. Only the other night there was another one, and large paramilitaries are feuding so there’s still guns on the streets. I’ve been threatened by paramilitaries, Loyalist paramilitaries, because of the cross-community work. It’s all been sorted out now and I’ve been left alone but in boxing terms I was being called a ‘Protestant Basterd’ and everything else and yet I was getting threatened by Loyalist paramilitaries because I was working with Catholics. So, can somebody tell me exactly how do I win, because it seems to me that no matter what I do I’m on a lose/lose here. I had one boxer who walked away from the sport. He was boxing in a local competition and he was the last boxer of the night. It was a very tight decision and our boxer lost it, lost the decision. I said to him that he ‘probably shouldn’t have won the semi-final as it was probably very close anyway, and you got the rub of the green’. He says ‘Oh no, don’t worry, I know I didn’t do enough to win it’. But we were packing up and my wife was with me and all the rest of it and outside the local leisure centre and we noticed the kids had closed over the gates, mucking about as kids do. So I went over to open up the gates and I see one of the top boys of the County Antrim Board, ‘Alright Harry, how’s it going?’, ‘How you getting on Terry?’ So I drove on out. I was in Dublin a day or two later to fight for the Irish title and I get a phone call telling me that my club is all over the BBC news and Belfast Telegraph for sectarianism. ‘Yeah apparently all your supporters started calling some woman a Fenian basterd outside and were going to start a riot with all these other boxers’. I said that’s impossible as we didn’t even have any supporters. I said that there was five people, there was three people in the corner, a boxer and a wee girl who came with us to watch. We even left in the same car. I even said to him that even Harry from the County Antrim Board saw us in the car park so how did this call come about. So I waited to come back up from Dublin and then started asking questions. It went as far as that we had called people ‘fenians’ and this, that, and the

117 other. And that we had a gang of people standing outside the leisure centre with lumps of 3x2, waiting to give the Catholics a ‘hiding’. So I went around to the leisure centre and tried to find out if they rang the police for what supposedly happened. They said ‘No, no, why? What would we call the police for?’ I said ‘for the intimidation that went on’. I said ‘did you get a report of boxers being intimidated here after the fight the other night?’ No, no. I said ‘hold on, you got no complaint’. And they told me ‘aw well we’d some complaint from some woman about some wee one calling her names.’ ‘Right, so you didn’t call the police and there’s nothing in your record book’ that they’d have to record. ‘No, we’ve no idea what you are talking about’. So then I starting investigating it and it turned out that what had happened was a wee boy, who was local to the area, had a branch of a tree and was on his own and had just happened to call someone a ‘fenian’ as she walked out the door. But other people had used it to get at us because people don’t like what I have here, and they don’t like that I do so much with the cross-community. For people from both sides it’s a case of ‘divide and conquer’. As in, keep them divided and keep them fighting amongst themselves.

A: Don’t allow any success?

T: Yeah, I had to build up all the evidence as it was all over Facebook about our club as well. So I built it all up and brought a full dossier up to the County Antrim Board and asked to meet them and said to them that right I want something done. I said that our club could not be drawn through the mud like this in public, handed it to them. And they just handed me a letter and said ‘There you are, there’s a letter from the club on the occasion that says that the guy was acting on his own personal, so there’s nothing we can do’. And I said to them that if it had been my club that had been making accusations, I’d have been done. That meeting was the point where I decided I cannot stay in the IABA. It had been made very clear that we weren’t wanted. We were not wanted! Because we wanted the right to box for Northern Ireland, and possibly if a boxer is good enough, for Team GB, you’re not wanted here. And I said that ‘I’m sorry, I can’t have it, I can’t stay in an organisation that we are not wanted, in an organisation where people want to deny other people equality. I do not want to stop anybody boxing for Ireland. I have family who have Irish passports, who class themselves as Irish, my friends. I go to GAA matches and I fact I don’t even like GAA, I prefer hurling because it’s more exciting.’ And I’m being slaughtered here for being this sectarian person and at this point people came to me and said to me that they’d speak up, but I told them to just leave it and that hopefully it would blow away. But it didn’t. And then previous to that a coach from another club had phoned me and I hadn’t seen it. But he didn’t know that he had

118 forgot to turn his phone off and had left me a four minute recording of, ‘who does he think he is that Protestant basterd over there, we’re not going to bring our fucking kids over there to be fucking robbed, with their Protestant referees’ and this, that, and the other. Now they had a ‘supposedly’ independent investigation into sectarianism in boxing, I don’t know if you heard about it?

A: Is this the one that was written a couple of years ago?

T: Yeah, with Sandy Row Boxing Club.

A: This is the one that includes about not wearing colours, etc.

T: Yeah, I’ve got in upstairs. Well it actually stated that sectarianism exists in boxing, it admitted it. I was one of the few coaches that decided to give evidence because every was told to…

A: Hush, hush?

T: Hush, hush, keep it quiet. And I said no I’m not. Trevor Ringland who played rugby for Ireland turned around and I walked it and I told him how I wanted equality for people who want to box for Northern Ireland. He said you’re wrong and that 99.9% of the population wouldn’t care what country they represented if they could go to the Olympics. So I closed my folder and got up and they asked me where I was going. I said ‘I’m leaving.’ They said ‘what are you leaving for?’ I said ‘well Trevor has spoken to 99.9% of the population of the island of Ireland so what do you want to speak to me for?’ I actually embarrassed him and he had to retract what he said. You either want to hear what I have to say or you don’t. ‘Have you spoken to 99.9% of the population?’ ‘Well obviously you know I haven’t.’ I said, ‘so what did you make that ludicrous statement for?’ I say, ‘don’t try and put words into other people’s mouths. What you’re telling me is that you’ve already made up your mind about this supposedly independent investigation. Rugby might be an all-Ireland institution but that doesn’t mean that others are. Football isn’t! But they co-exist’. I said that the rugby brigade, everyone sees them as the upper class and everything else and that’s why, but there doesn’t seem to be that problem. But unfortunately further down the food chain, opinions change. I said that there’s probably more socio-economic division than there is religious and political because the rich in the country have no consideration for the poor.

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A: It’s interesting you bring this up, I was speaking to a coach over in Oliver Plunkett’s who did speak highly of this club…

T: I did a show with Oliver Plunkett and I can say that we had a brilliant night, and I went to one of their shows and we were welcomed in…we we’re given a standing ovation because we came from East Belfast to their show.

A: Yeah, he said that bringing boxers over this direction he’s never had any issues whatsoever and that he’s been completely honest in saying that, even back as far as the 70’s in the height of ‘The Troubles’. He said that it was the one time that you could go to each other’s clubs in the ‘heartlands’ as such without issues. But I was saying to him, and it reflects hugely on society, that the working class hasn’t come together. There is the Alliance Party, but in the grand scheme of things they are still pretty irrelevant.

T: Yeah, and they don’t represent the working class.

A: Exactly, yeah! And is there a reason why there hasn’t been, or has there ever been, someone who has attempted to start a cross-community working class movement? I mean, especially since people who like on that side of the wall are in the same situation economically as people on this side of the wall.

T: How I describe it is that, that is Beechfield Street that side of the wall, and this is Beechfield Street this side of the wall. But, those people and these people have the same struggles. How do we pay the gas bill, the electric bill? How do we get the school uniforms? How do we get the Sunday dinner on the table? How do we keep warm in the winter? That’s all the same troubles they have. They have more in common than they have not in common. Ok? But I truly believe that the politicians like to divide and conquer. If the people were to get together…it suits them. There are people here who live below the breadline, and I mean below the breadline. But if you asked them for their last fifty pence, you’d get it and they wouldn’t look for it back.

A: Good people?

T: Good people, salt of the earth people, and I mean on all sides. Unfortunately, there are also bitter people as well in both sides of the communities who like to keep stoking it up because it serves their purpose. Their selfish purposes, their agenda is selfish! They’re obviously getting something from somewhere to keep that tension. We had women out, in the women’s

120 course there I had, I brought them outside into the sunshine to train and I videoed them and put it up on Facebook. Someone then directed me to someone’s Facebook from the Short Strand and what did they have put up? These orange basterds out getting ready for the 12th, and there was the video of the girls learning to box. And I just thought to myself, why do people have to go and do that? Why do people have to take something good and try and tarnish it? Why have they got to do that? And the only reason I can think of is personal agendas. Because there are a lot of people in the Short Strand who are good people, there are a lot of people this side who are good people. There are a lot of people this side who I wouldn’t trust them as far as I could throw them, and there’s also people that side who are the same. But on the whole there are good people that if they got the chance in somewhere like this, and I’ve seen it so I know it can happen. I have thirteen different nationalities in this club. Between Polish, Portuguese, Spanish, German, French, Iranian, Somalian, Irish, English, and other countries. Yeah between thirteen and fifteen different nationalities in this club and there’s no aggravation. I have Muslim girls who are the first Muslim girls to box in Northern Ireland.

A: Oh really?

T: They boxed for me not long ago and they wore their wee Hajib, they had their headgear on the top, and their dad brings them down regularly, and there’s six of them that come down here. Not one of my kids has looked at them in a funny way, even to think you know ‘they’re different from us’. And they all run in there and are fighting to get the skipping rope and fighting to do this. Nobody turns an eye on anybody. Nobody turns around and asks them what school they’re going to, what religion are you?

A: Is that something that stems from the fact that boxing is a niche sport and respect is gained by entering the ring? Or is it the values?

T: It’s the values and people might say I’m trying to push…but I won’t tolerate anything that is remotely…If I see someone with a tattoo, and people get tattoos when they are young…

A: And they regret it a few years later…

T: I seen a guy with a big paramilitary tattoo on his leg and I told him, ‘Look do you mind putting on a long sock or bandage that?’ and I explained to him that and he says ‘you know what it’s like Terry, eighteen, tanked up with your mates and I got a tattoo, thirty years later and you’re sick of looking at it’. You know, people will walk in here on their first night and

121 they’ll have their Rangers shirt on, or a Celtic shirt, or a Man United shirt, or whatever. So I normally say to them, ‘excuse me do you mind taking that off and I’ll give you a t-shirt? It’s in our rules we don’t allow any colours.’ The response I get is often, ‘aye yes no problem, that’s a brilliant idea, I really like that.’ I haven’t had one person yet com in that door and say they me that they don’t agree with that policy. Not one! Every single person I have mentioned it to has, or have had to bring it to their attention, had said they like that idea. I have had people brought their children in here who have went to prison for paramilitary activity and I have said to them ‘no nonsense, nothing else, I don’t want my kid going through what I went through.’ And I get back, ‘well that’s fair enough.’ I have Protestant, Catholic, Muslim and I don’t know what else training together in here. Nobody cares!

A: That’s fantastic.

T: Nobody cares. We went to Dungannon on Saturday night there for a show, we were boxing up in Dungannon on a show, and a load of the seniors jumped in the cars and came up and supported everybody, and mixed people in the audience. Like I say, it just you know… It just…the days of Barry McGuigan crossing the divide, if you look at today the same with Carl Frampton. Carl Frampton crosses the divide…to a certain extent. But what I have already seen is a split starting to occur because of Michael Conlon. If you look up on Facebook they’re now starting a Michael Conlon page and they’re putting painting of Michael Conlon up all round West Belfast. Now what’s going to happen is that Carl is going to start getting marginalised because he’ll be seen from Tiger’s Bay and Michael’s from the Falls and his father is from Dublin. They are a Republican family, they don’t hide what they are, they are a true Republican family, as is Paddy Barnes. Paddy Barnes’ father has said he’s a 36 county man, and fair dues if that’s what you want. But it has to be achieved by peace, as long as it’s a democratic process I don’t care. My father was in the Royal Navy but classed himself as Irish, he was from Tyrone. My mother is English. They met during the war years. And my grandmother and grandfather met in Trinity College Dublin as I say.

A: I want to get your opinion here on whether or not there is a hypocrisy when it comes to national identity in Northern Ireland and specifically in the case of boxing. We’ve seen recently with Conlon having his first professional fight and he has walked to the ring with Irish tricolours, a leprechaun top hat and an Irish garment and he’s received hugely positive reviews. If a member of the Unionist boxing community was to do the same with a Union Jack and the rest, what do you think the reaction would be?

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T: They would be cut to pieces!

A: This is why I feel Carl Frampton is interesting as he sees himself as Northern Irish, and he’s extremely proud of being Northern Irish, going to all the football matches and the like as well. To me I have found it interesting how it appears as though he has been embraced by a lot of the island.

T: What I’ll do is I’ll judge the next two years. Now if that stays that way, with Paddy Barnes and Michael Conlon on the radar. I don’t think Paddy Barnes will make as big an impact. He’s not as good a boxer and his weight category, it’s just not a popular weight category and it doesn’t get anywhere as near as much publicity. So god love him, Paddy could probably go on and win fifty fights and still not be as popular as Michael, just because of his weight, nothing else. Plus, he’s not just personable and as good on television as Michael Conlon is. Paddy is Paddy, he’s just Paddy!

A: He’s just your typical Belfast lad!

T: Yes! With Paddy what you see is what you get. People will call him a head banger and all the rest of it but he is also a really nice guy, you know. But he’s not TV material. Whereas Michael Conlon will sell.

A: He has huge promotional backing as well. No, I mean the reason I would be confident about Frampton’s support remaining is that he appears to be a very nice and genuine guy, with extreme talent. On top of that there is also no arrogance to him…

T: Oh no there’s none of that! His mother still works on the till in Asda, and his father works in the leisure centre. If Carl tried to go above himself, his mother Flo would…if you think he was hard [Laughs].

A: It said a lot that in his recent fight where we lost his World Championship he took it so graciously especially when it was a close fight. But he appears such a humble guy and is a great for the image of Northern Ireland.

T: Yeah I hope he keeps his support but like I say I’m a bit worried. You’ll see a bit of the support lost in Belfast now that people will say they have their own. It’s like that with Conor McGregor too. It a case of when people class themselves as Irish in the North are often even told by people in the South you know ‘you’re not one of us, he’s not from the North, he’s a Dublin man, what the hell do you know about him’. So there is that. There is that whole thing

123 in boxing too. I mean if you go to Dublin you have to knock him out for a win or a draw. Dublin is flippin’…I didn’t realise it until I was standing watching a fight one day and a boy from Tipperary was standing beside me. There was this boy getting a terrible hammering and I was saying, ‘for flip sake ref will you end it’, and the lad turns to me and says, ‘he won’t stop it, sure it’s the Dub that’s winning’. I went ‘what?’ He says ‘it’s the Dub that’s winning. Are you not a GAA man? I’m from Tipperary and I play with a wee ball and a big ball and we know when we get on the bus to Dublin we know we’re ten points behind by the time we get to Dublin’. He says, ‘aye, the Dubs are nothing but a wee bunch of cheating shites!’ If you’re from outside Dublin it seems as though people have a lot to say about it. At the end of the day, we were going down to train with St. Josephs from Dublin, we were driving to Dublin on a Sunday, that’s how sectarian I am. We we’re going to train with St. Josephs, in Dublin, and I was taking four or five boxers the whole way down on a Sunday, just to take them to get better training and better spars. But yet we were still classed as sectarian, but we were the only club that was driving down to Dublin for training.

A: This is what I find fascinating, when there are examples like this and yet there’s little you can do with things like the Belfast Telegraph article, especially now with Google. It’s easy for storied like this to gain traction and yet it’s extremely hard to get rid of it. Trouble can arise like that [clicks fingers].

T: The old saying is mud sticks and the other one is no smoke without fire, or whatever one that’s there. That is why we left. There was a lot of people that said it was sectarian because I left, and I said, ‘no-one has come to speak to me and asked me why I left the IABA’. The IABA haven’t even asked why I left. That’s how much they care. They were saying they were looking to try and bring better relationships between the North and the South, and boxing and all the rest and take the sectarianism out of it. I’m still waiting for a phone call, I’m still waiting for a letter to say ‘what can we do, is there any way of getting you back in?’ All I’m saying to people is, we should have the right, everybody in Northern Ireland should have the right to box for Ireland, for Northern Ireland, and then the only time we box for Team GB is at the Olympics. And what I’m trying to explain to people is, if you can box for a Northern Ireland team, come the European Championships, we can send an Ireland team and a Northern Ireland team, we can double the number of young people getting involved. How is that a mad thing? So we could send two teams to the Europeans, two teams to the Worlds, two teams to the Multi-Nationals, two teams to the European Union…[laughs] well maybe

124 not the European Union anymore. The only time Team GB would come into it would be every four years at the Olympics, and as I said earlier, I don’t think after Tokyo boxing

A: Is going to be there.

T: And it will certainly not be there in the current format that we know, because you’re going to be looking at the professionals going in like in tennis. And how do the local tennis players here get to go to the Olympics when they’ve to beat Andy Murray and all? How is that fair to amateur tennis players? And Rory McIlroy I thought was really good. Rory McIlroy turned around and said about the Olympics, ‘I never wanted to grow up and play in the Olympics, I wanted to grow up and play in the majors. I wanted to win the Masters.’ Now, as I’ve said to people, if you put the Olympics on the same week as Wimbledon, would Andy Murray go to the Olympics or Wimbledon? Or would Djokovic go to Wimbledon or the Olympics? Wimbledon! You don’t get money at the Olympics. If you put the Olympics on the same week as the U.S. Masters, how many of the top 100 golfers in the world would go to the Olympics rather than that?

A: Very, very few.

T: The Olympics are being ruined by putting these top professionals athletes into it…

A: For the viewing figures or whatever.

T: It used to be the Olympics were a stepping stone to your professional career. Now they are just bypassing that. Now you’re going to get professional boxers going in there, who are training professionally, and if I had a good boxer who was training five days a week, and trying to work, and living off a wee grant and then I had this professional in who had won three world titles at three different weights, the first thing I’m going to say is, ‘pull him out!’ I want to see him tomorrow. They’re totally destroying it. So boxing has to, at a local level, has to learn that we need to come together quicker rather than later, because the longer it goes on, this divide, and there’s actually a divide in England too now. England is split and it’s over the World Body. Half of England doesn’t like the taking head gears out and stuff, other clubs are sticking with it for now. But there’s more clubs starting to go to the other side now because they’re realising, what’s the chance of getting one boy to the Olympics? What is it, 0.1% of the population might got to the Olympics. And there’s another thing, if we have a Northern Ireland Boxing Association, we can then open another avenue to get young people to the Olympics with Team GB, so not just Ireland. So instead of all of our people competing

125 for the Ireland places, some people might turn around and decide they want to compete for Team GB. So I’ll go Team GB and that means there’s less competition for those spots, but instead of only having four, we can send eight. And GB would take our boxers in a heartbeat because we’ve always punched above our weight. We’ve produced boxers forever.

A: That’s one of the reasons why I was attracted to doing this study. A popular sporting website a few months ago decided to rank the twenty best boxers on the island of Ireland and fifteen of them are from Ulster. For the population of Ulster to have that many boxers is incredible. In what other place in the world, in any other sport do they have that history!

T: Yeah, exactly. And this is why Dublin are reluctant to give Northern Ireland their own spot. I mean if you lived in Scotland, you’re allowed to box for Scotland. If you live in England, you’re allowed to box for England. If you live in Ireland, you box for Ireland. If you live in Wales, you box for Wales. Come the Olympics if you’re English, Scottish, or Welsh you compete for a place on Team GB. We’re not. Why are we different? What’s so different about that? I’m not saying just for Protestants. I know Catholics who would probably turn around and say…I mean how many Catholics play football for Northern Ireland now? Northern Ireland football has changed.

A: And in a very short period of time.

T: In a very short period of time! One of my best friends, her niece is the captain of Northern Ireland women’s team, Amy McGivern, and she’s from Downpatrick. She’s proudly Irish, but plays for Northern Ireland and didn’t want to change allegiance as an adult because she said, ‘no, Northern Ireland developed me as a child, why would I not help them back?’ And she’s at a University in America now on a scholarship program for three years and yet her whole family are Irish, but they go to all the Northern Ireland matches.

A: It wouldn’t have been that long ago that that would have been a no-no.

T: A no-no!

A: You look there at the Euros, the players and the supporters of both sides were celebrated. I noticed as well something which seemed like a very small thing to many, but what I thought was a big step was that the customary RTÉ documentary that follows all major championships included Northern Ireland this time around. It was

126 called ‘Two Shades of Green’ if I remember correctly. Now in the past this didn’t happen, possibly because of the location of Windsor Park and the Northern Irish teams were associated with Protestants. But now, I think there has been a change and it’s not seen as a Unionist team in the way it previously was.

T: Yeah, I mean you’ll probably still see the Union flags and this and that, but there’s a lot more Catholics now to be classed as Northern Irish on a sporting level then probably there ever was. And I think being go on but politics, and this, that and the rest of it and I actually turned around and said I’m actually not sure people would actually vote for a united Ireland in the North. Because, when you start telling people things like you’ll have to start going to pay for things like your GP and different things like that in the cost and whatever. People will start saying, ‘ hold on a wee minute, if I’m still allowed to still be Irish up here and still keep seeing my doctor whenever I like, I think we’re doing alright’, you know. Like I say, I don’t see it. From a sporting point of view, all I want is equality for everybody and I just don’t see any reason why there shouldn’t be room for a Northern Ireland Boxing Association and a Northern Irish boxing team, and why the two of them shouldn’t be working together. This is the problem and there are people on both sides who wouldn’t want it to happen. I mean there are people who would class themselves as real strong Loyalists boxing under Ireland who wouldn’t want to see Northern Ireland happen. Because they know they would lose certain control and money. One of the things in boxing, there’s a lot of people who cry poverty in their clubs. Now you can see this club, and people come in here and people think, ‘oh he’s living in absolute luxury, he’s had money thrown at him’. Well I’d say to them I put twenty thousand pound of my own money into this club. The difference between this club and a lot of other clubs, not all clubs but a lot, I don’t take three or four hundred quid out of this club as a wage. Every penny of money that comes in here, gets invested in here. To buy a bucket of paint, a sofa, whatever, a cabinet, a pair of gloves, a headgear, whatever we need at that particular time. I go and I’ve got a government minister coming next Monday night from England, not the secretary for state but his Minister for Northern Ireland or something like that…

A: His advisor or whatever?

T: Aye, he’s coming to the club and we’ve had other ones come to the club. Mike Penny, who was the Minister for State, wanted me to come to London because I’d designed a program for here and it was called ‘Sport for Youth and Life’ and it was to work with young

127 offenders and young people on the verge of paramilitaries and gangs and to try and get them into boxing. Or even get them into sport. They done a program here that would get them an [OCM?] qualification and then say they turned around and said they didn’t want to box but I want to play hurling. ‘Right where do you live, I’ll ring your local hurling club, I’ll say you’ve completed this course and we’ll stand over you as a good candidate for the club.’ We’d recommend that if they would give them a chance to go into the club, even if they don’t want to play but they’d like to get into the coaching side, that they could then take them on and train them up to be a coach. Mike Penny took it and loved it and said would I bring it to London and do this. I’ve people in London who want me to go over and do it but I can't get my own government to do it here. It says everything.

A: Personally, this is why I feel boxing can be very important in this role. You’ve said you’re happy for it to be any sport, but you’re sport is boxing and it is a fact that the people who come to boxing are often those who are most vulnerable to criminality or paramilitaries on both sides. It generally is working class, males, under the age of 25.

T: I was talking about people earlier and saying about their fathers being unemployed. I had a group of young lads in, and I got them in one night, and I try to do things differently here. I try to break down barriers, and I don’t been barriers as in cross-community, but barriers between my age group and theirs as well as anything else. So I said to them one night, ‘we’re all jumping in the ring for a meeting’, ‘huh? What are we jumping into the ring for?’ ‘Right take your shoes off because you’ve got to get your boxing shoes on.’ Now we weren’t boxing. So we jumped in and there was a couple of lads who had come to it who had never been to the club before, who had come with their football shirts on. I said, ‘lads, we don’t do football shirts here, can you take them off, or I tell you what turn them inside out and that will do for tonight.’ You know it’s a case of I can’t let the policy slip. Now each of these guys had been involved in paramilitaries and they all went ‘ok’. The person who was with me at the time was a youth worker ‘[gives a shocked look]’. She gave me a look like she had never seen these people take their shoes off when asked. So I had to her, ‘wait until you see what’s happening next’. ‘Has anyone here got a mobile phone? Turn it off and set it over there.’ I said no mobile phones while we are doing this talk. ‘Right, I’m giving up my time for free, so if you don’t want to give up your time you can all put your gym bags on and I’ll go home’. ‘I’m not paid to be here, I’m here as a volunteer to help you as people in the local community are complaining about you.’ So they go, ‘right ok.’ ‘Right, right, everyone, phones off’, and everybody put their phones of and put them in the corner. I said, ‘right now,

128 the next rule is that what’s said in this room stays in this room. Nothing gets outside. No matter what you tell me I don’t go to the authorities, I don’t go to anybody’. So we started talking, ‘has anyone done drugs?’ A few hands went up. ‘Anybody involved in paramilitaries?’ Some hands went up. So we started talking. ‘Why did you get involved with drugs?’ So and so and so. ‘Why did you get involved in paramilitaries?’ Various reasons like daddy was, brother was, protection, we were afraid and then if they joined the paramilitaries nobody would beat them up because they had this baton behind them. So I started asking them who was working, do they go to tech, do they go to their tech much? Blah. blah, blah, why? ‘Oh I don’t like the course much.’ ‘Well why don’t you change it?’ So then one lad goes ‘he likes stealing cars’. So I said, ‘Oh you like stealing cars, well why not learn to work on them?’ ‘What do you mean?’ I said, ‘Well you’re in the tech, you don’t like what you’re doing, ask them can you change to mechanics. Train to be a mechanic so you don’t have to steal the cars.’ So we went from that to the end of the night where we had a couple of them training to be joiners, who had volunteered and had asked me that if I organise it. They were hanging about a wee park, they weren’t doing anything bad, they weren’t doing drugs or drinking or messing about…

A: Just loitering around the area? Just being nuisances?

T: Yeah. And they turned around and said to me, ‘Terry, we realise now that we’ve upset the pensioners round the area. We’ll tell you what, if you tell the pensioners that if any of them have broken gates or fences we’ll come and fix them and paint them for nothing’. We got the council in and the council said that they were leaving the place full of litter and they told them that that was because they put the bins in the wrong bloody place. They said ‘well there’s no bins at the gate, the bins are over way across the in the corner’. The girl from the council said she didn’t know and would have to go off and check. But she came back anyway and said to me, ‘they’re dead right, they have put them in the wrong place’. So then I organised a game of five-a-side football in the park between them and the park rangers. Because the park rangers said they felt threatened. No harm to you, the oldest one was nineteen and he wouldn’t have struggled to threaten anyone if he tried. So I said right we’ll get the park rangers down and we’ll organise a match. I took boxers around one Saturday, took belts around, had all the local kids getting photos with belts all free. Got the these supposed hoods playing football with the park keepers, now there’s no bother in the park at all.

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A: Essentially giving names to the faces, breaking down barriers.

T: So what also used to happen is people used to come up to the gates here and try and come into the car park to try and throw stuff into the Short Strand. But thankfully now this club doesn’t get touched as there’s an attitude of ‘leave Terry alone, Terry’s working hard in there’. So don’t make life harder.

A: That must have taken a while to build up though no?

T: It took a long time because I was threatened by Loyalist paramilitaries. I got a phone call here one night to go to the local police station which said I’d been threatened to be shot by the UVF, because I wanted to put a door into the Short Strand. I had a cul-de-sac out the back of me here who refused to speak to me and tried to cause me all sorts of difficulties over things that weren’t happening. So I invited them in, I brought them in one night, took them into the wee room. So I asked them what was wrong. They gave me blah, blah, blah, the cars are speeding. I said the cars aren’t speeding come on. So I basically told them to give me a break and cut to the chase. ‘What’s your beef with me, if you’ve beef with me I want to know what it is? I cannot think what I have done on you, so please tell me what I’ve done to piss you off before?’ They said ‘You’ve taken our peace money!’

A: Peace money?

T: I say, ‘I’m taking your what?’ ‘Our peace money!’ ‘What you talking about peace money?’ ‘We’re meant to get peace money if we live in the interface area and you’re taking because you moved in’. I said ‘I’m sorry, I have no idea what you’re talking about.’ [Laughs] And I genuinely think they could tell I was being honest with them and sincere. I don’t even know where to apply for peace money or if there even is peace money or am I even entitled to it. And they went ‘You’re not getting peace money? You’re not getting interface money?’ I says ‘no.’ They says ‘then how are you doing this?’ ‘I’m doing this with my own money, grants from the bank who’ll give us money as a big organisation, I got a grant from the police, grant from Sport NI, a grant from Lloyds TSB, blah, blah, blah, that’s how I’m doing it!’ ‘So you’re not taking any interface money or peace money?’ ‘No.’ ‘Awww brilliant, you’re doing a great job!’

A: [Laughs]

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T: And I swear to god, they all got up and left and shook my hand. Since that I haven’t had a problem. They’re beef with me was they thought I was somehow deflecting some of their money. I was like, I can’t believe that. And you know, you were saying there about the two shades of green in the football. Well in here, there’s twenty shades of orange because this street won’t talk to that street, and that won’t that street, because that street is UVF and that street is UDA, so they don’t like each other and they won’t speak to one another. So you think you got problems between green and orange…it’s the fifty shades of orange you got the problems with. I don’t know if it’s fifty shades of green, it probably is similar in some areas. Everybody likes their own wee bit of turf to call their own, these people. But no, boxing on a whole, if it’s approached correctly, is a brilliant way of breaking down barriers. But there are problems there, there are very serious problems there and people will try and play them down. And by playing them down is only a way of letting them fester and going to let it get worse, and some of them worse along the line as will happen. If we sat up like adults and went ok, we have to realise now that times have changed. People want to represent Ireland, people want to represent Northern Ireland. The people who want to represent Northern Ireland do not want to stop the people who want to represent Ireland. And as long as the people who want to represent Ireland do not want to stop the people who want to represent Northern Ireland, well then there’s no reason why we cannot get on well together. I can’t train with clubs, I can’t go train with Oliver Plunkett because I’m not part of the IABA. They’ve been instructed, not Oliver Plunkett’s decision, they got a letter telling them they were not to box with any member of the Northern Irish Boxing Association. That’s Dublin for you!

A: At the end of the day, the people it is punishing are the young lads and lassies.

T: Yeah. I had one lad in here particularly who was going to Dublin and a couple of coaches had told him that he could maybe make the Olympics squad, but he wanted to box for Northern Ireland, that’s just what he is. He’d box for Ireland, but he’d rather box for Northern Ireland.

A: As in he classifies himself as Northern Irish?

T: Yeah, as British. Now he wouldn’t be stubborn and not, but because we had broken away he can’t box for anybody now. So, like I say, we’re working with the government up here at the minute and the department and stuff, and trying to say to Sport NI. Sport NI won’t even recognise us. They say they only recognise the IABA, but we say ‘but we’re sport Northern

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Ireland’. ‘Why are you not recognising Northern Ireland, why are you recognising Ireland?’ The IABA get their money from Sport Ireland, and they’re being investigated by Sport Ireland by the way for fraud over all the Rio stuff, and that and what went on. So we need to sit down and grow up and say what is going on? Right, there are people here who would like to box for Ireland, and there are people here who would like to box for Northern Ireland, but we need to accommodate both people. To me, there are people out there who are trying to make it as difficult as possible and Dublin is one of them, and the head people in Dublin. I think, if you gave us a weekend, a day, to sit down at a table, with the proper people around the table, and for us to turn around and to be able to say to them ‘it’s not about stopping you being Irish and wanting to box for Ireland’, in fact I would walk the streets to defend their rights to be Irish, because as I say I have Irish family. But you have to recognise there are other communities. You know we hear all this dignity, respect and equality, well it has to be for everyone. People are getting sick of hearing it. I says let’s do it.

A: Actions speak louder than words.

T: Yes! And I think, like you say, you’ve got clubs there like Oliver Plunkett’s and I remember going up to their show, and I brought them to our show up in Stormont. And we went up to their show and they went out of their way and they turned around and said ‘We’d like to thank Terry and his boxers who’ve come over from East Belfast and we got a round of applause’.

*Interrupted by a mother looking to sign up her son for boxing*

A: There you go, two lads of 17 and 18 from the end of the street. That’s perfect! Another two lad who could be out on the streets.

T: Absolutely! What I can say is during all the interface trouble around here, not one member of my boxing club has ever been in trouble. Because I have it in our membership form that even when you’re not at the club and you’re out in the streets, you’re an ambassador for the club. You can still be thrown out of the club for what you do outside the club. People take that very seriously because they realise how respected they are in here. Because there is no hierarchy and say even if you’re not a boxer, when we do a show, I’ll still get you doing something, handing out medals, doing time-keeping, whatever. There’ll be a place for everybody. People will feel as though they are part of the show even if they’re not a boxer,

132 even the kids. You know, the kids will be running about doing wee messages or something, made to feel part of it.

A: Essentially an extended family, especially if they’re having home trouble or whatever. And could they come in and speak to you and tell you if they had a bad week, or do you ever get that?

T: Yep, and the thing is because it’s so cheap we can get a family in here now, and we do have that. Now, mums and dads who used to come in here and sit waiting on their kids, they’re now saying, ‘can I use the gym down there?’ You mostly get the men wanting to use the weights and the women wanting to use the treadmills and the spin bikes upstairs. So you’re getting a family unit coming in here to train and staying healthy time together, something which they wouldn’t be able to afford to do in the local leisure centre. So for the price of one person going the leisure centre, you’re getting a family of three or four coming in here. If someone turns around and says to me that they can’t afford the two pound, they’re never going to be turned away, they’ll just be told to write that down and they can say to me ‘Terry, I don’t have it but I’ve wrote it down as I don’t want you to be short at the end of the night’. I’m yet to ever have to go and ask anybody for that money as it will always come to me. It might take one week, it might take two but it will come back. Because they know the money is needed for what they have in here. If they want to box, really all that they need is their gum shield at two pound fifty, and a set of wraps which are a couple of quid. We provide the kits, the headgears, the gloves, everything for them. They don’t have to buy their kits. And their club polo shirts are all sold at cost price, I don’t make anything on them, so everyone can get involved. But I think, like I say, I would love to get the Northern Irish Boxing Association up working properly and where people feel, because at the minute there are clubs who are telling me that they would join up but in their area it might be a bit difficult or blah, blah, blah. We need to get over that and we need the right people around the table and say ‘let’s just do this!’

A: You were saying earlier that people never asked you why you left, and it seems as though rumours in the boxing community seem to spread very easily in Belfast. Is a lot of the problems stemming from the fact that there is false motives being spread which could be solved by sitting down and talking about each other’s grievances in a productive and honest manner?

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T: Uh huh! As I say, no one at all has come up to me and asked what the reason we left is. Now, I have explained to the government and told them, and the Sports Minister, and the Department officials and those who I was meeting with and I explained why we left. But nobody…unfortunately we live in a political vacuum even when they’re up there [in Stormont], it’s still a political vacuum, most of the time it doesn’t help. And the people who suffer the most are the people at the bottom of the food chain. They suffer the most and that’s why I say the bigger divide between us, even politically and religiously is socially and economically. The people who live on the Malone Road have no idea, a Catholic on the Malone Road has no idea what a Catholic is going through on the Short Strand. A Protestant on the Malone Road has no idea what a Protestant is going through on Templemore Avenue, and they don’t care. But our society, and I think the politicians will have to deal with it, is too embroiled in itself to actually let that happen and let people see, ‘hold on, we need to start looking out for each other’. And I don’t mean each other as in same religion or same political party or whatever, but even just looking out for each other as human beings.

A: Yeah, 100%.

T: You know, I know women here from the Protestant side and women here from the Catholic side, who walk up together to the same food bank to get free food parcels because they can’t afford food for the family. They walk up together and then split at the bottom of the road. One goes into the Short Strand and one goes into the Loyalist side. But they walk up together…and they’ll chat and they’ll talk and they probably meet for coffee. There’s probably more communication between the women down here than the men. I don’t know whether that might be another reason…

A: Well it’s the typical masculinity issue and stubbornness. That’s why I see huge potential in boxing as when you have lads going over to say Oliver Plunkett’s, they don’t need to prove their masculinity because they are getting in and boxing each other. In a way they can even show a softer side because at the end of the day they’re boxing. And that’s where it differs from football. Even local rivalries become major issues, it doesn’t have to be green and orange. I’m a Drogheda United supporter and I certainly wasn’t as nice and polite as I am now when I was up in Dundalk the other night.

T: [Laughs] Yeah! You know, girls probably tend to go more towards GAA in Nationalist areas, and in Loyalist areas it’s probably more the women’s football, which has really taken off. Crusaders Football Club do an absolutely brilliant program for women’s football,

134 absolutely brilliant. I reckon it’s probably the best in the country. They really are doing a lot to develop female football. Boxing has twenty years to catch up, we’re so far behind. I had a wee girl, Katelyn, who boxed for me and played football and she had to make a choice. She went to football, she went to Crusaders, and she’s now playing for Northern Ireland. And I’ve said to her that football’s gain is boxing’s loss. I have to be honest and say you’ve made the right decision because you’d still be nowhere in boxing, even though you’re that good. I said there’s no place for women in boxing at the minute. Katie Taylor won the London Olympics, right, what did she do after it? Well what did they do? Did they take her on a tour around Ireland? No. Did they take her to all the clubs? Set up a female development program? Here’s Ireland’s star boxer, more well known then all the men, they should have had her in every boxing club in Ireland.

A: There was nothing.

T: They did nothing with her!

A: They took her very much for granted, and it was only recently when she had a couple of losses that the journalists paid more attention and tried to cut her down. Like more attention on the losses than the fifty straight victories before that.

T: Already though you’re seeing since she’s gone professional that people are waiting to cut her down by saying she should be disposing of these people quicker.

A: Which is ridiculous when you have two minute rounds.

T: Katie has actually said that. She said that people don’t realise in men’s boxing you get more stoppages because they’re going for three minutes, so the people who don’t train as hard are more tired and so there’s more knockouts. She said if you give us the three minute rounds, you’ll see the same results. You know, the first minute of a round is when you’re settling yourself down. But as I say, I really hope and I’m going to bring it up with this Minister I’m meeting Monday night, I’m going to bring it up with him that we need to hopefully get Sport NI, the IABA, and people sitting down around the table. We need to say ‘Look, the last two or three years have been wasted, it’s let ill feeling develop between certain people’. I’m really glad to hear that Oliver Plunkett were so positive, you know I am really glad because I did work with them. But we went up and I have to be honest and where we went into box was a bit, you know [dodgy], hunger strikes stuff on the walls, but emm they did turn around and say ‘folks I want you to give these guys a welcome as they’ve come

135 from East Belfast to box tonight’, and we had a standing ovation. Like I said, I told them I wanted them to come to my show which I run up in parliament buildings called ‘The Brawl on the Haul’ and they came back up and again, unfortunately it wasn’t long after this that all the crap started, but they weren’t involved in any of it. I honestly can’t say one bad word about them. I will say that there are certain people, in certain clubs, who have agenda to keep everybody apart.

A: I may have just been lucky in the club I visited so.

T: I could name a few ------*Redacted* ------that are run by bitter, bitter people. Some of them are run by ex-IRA prisoners. So you know where they’re going to come from. I don’t care, they’ve done their time fair enough, well they should have finished all their time and that means for everybody. I’ve no love lost for Loyalist paramilitaries, I’ve been threatened to be fucking killed by them so I’m hardly going to embrace them. I’ve stood out at the gate and punched the lights out on them. One night I stood out in front and there was about fifty of them, and they wanted to come in, it was in the earlier days when they riots were going on and they wanted to come into the car park to through stuff over. So I said to them, ‘Right who’s going to be the first three heroes?’ I said ‘the first three are going down, who’s coming after that?’ I think they looked at me and thought ‘this guy is either absolute nuts or he’s being serious’. In the end they turned around and walked away. This is a boxing club, when we first moved in we were getting stuff thrown over from the Short Strand. So I went and talked to Alex Maskey and Niall Donoughue at the time and I said to them, ‘look we’re getting stuff thrown over, it’s a wee boxing club and I don’t want the boxing club to be a catalyst for violence’. And they said to leave it with them. Almost overnight it was stopped. I can almost count on one hand from that meeting four or five years ago the number of stuff that has been thrown over. I can say it’s never been directed at here but they’ve been trying to get at elsewhere, but we’ve not been attacked.

A: Well listen Terry, I’ve taken up enough of your time and I really appreciate you seeing me on relatively short notice. I’ll be stopping up plenty of times over the next few weeks to watch your lads and girls train if you’ll have me [Laughs].

T: That’s absolutely no problem at all Alex, I’ll give you my card so we don’t have to deal via email. Anything else you’d like to know you know where to find me.

A: Appreciate that I really do. I’ll see you again in a few days soon so.

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T: Perfect Alex, Mondays and Wednesdays are the best days to pop up.

A: Cheers Terry.

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Appendix D – Interview 3

Interview with Patsy McAllister and Jimmy McGrath – Founder and Coaches of Oliver Plunkett ABC Boxing Club.

*Interview starts in small talk*

A: I was telling Jimmy that I’ve been fascinated by boxing in, well Ireland in general, but specifically the history of the sport in Ulster being incredible with a huge amount of champions over the years. For an area which has such a small amount of people to have so many champions is unbelievable. I was recently reading up on a list of the top twenty boxers of all time and fifteen of them were from Ulster.

P: Well not so much now, in later years Ulster hasn’t been at the fore of boxing in as long time in the sense, we have Paddy Barnes and young Michael Conlon there recently. But they’re gone now. So we’re actually waiting to see who the next stars are going to be. Unfortunately, there’s no one who’s shining bright at the moment.

A: Is there not no?

P: Nah not really no. Nothing you are going to turn and think he’s going to get a medal in the Europeans or at the Olympics or even at the World’s you know.

A: Where’s Conlon based out of now, has he moved over to the States?

P: He’s in Los Angeles, in the boxers. He’ll be boxing in New Orleans next time.

A: That’s right, that’s soon enough as well isn’t it?

P: It’s in May sometime, in May yeah. And then hoping to get him back here before Christmas.

A: Back to Belfast?

P: Aye, back to Belfast, that’s what his plans are, but in a sense we’re still waiting on the next big thing going forward.

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J: I get the Irish boxing channels and we were hot at our peak when Billy Walsh was there.

A: That’s right, that was huge loss wasn’t it?

J: Well Patsy was down there at the height of it.

P: I was down there for five years there with the performance with Billy and a fella called Jim Moore, and wee David. We were the first hired high performance team, yeah we were the first.

A: When was that set up?

P: It was set up in actually in 2004/2003, I think 2003 roughly when it really got off the ground and there’s a guy there called Gary Keegan, he was the big man behind it. He had great foresight as to what he wanted to do and Gary and Zaur carried out what Billy wanted and needed and they were very successful, a great squad there at the high performance. I was talking to Zaur there on Friday night, or Thursday night, and I just had a couple of words with him and he’s going ok but he’s not over excited at what he’s got at the minute. It’s only him and John Conlon there now, but they don’t know who they’re going to bring in.

J: Aye, Eddie’s away.

P: Aye, Eddie Bolger is away. I think they left Zaur on his own, but John Conlon is there now, he’s the Ulster High Performance coach. They’ll have to bring in another team of Irish coaches in now and at the moment we don’t seem to know a few of them, so we don’t Jimmy?

A: And nobody ever reached out at all to you?

P: No. There’s a wee man there, he came back to the high performance after he had left, Jimmy Halpin. Jimmy’s a nice lad, Jimmy Payne lives in Waterford, he was there for a while too, he’s a big business, a big fitness business going on down there in Waterford so he has no time left to do that. But that’s the way it is at the minute, or in our opinion that’s the way Irish boxing is at the minute. It’s very good as regards to the underage boxing, you know your under eighteens and schoolboys, there’s a lot of school boys coming on very well. The problem is that they’re keeping them there. For me that’s the problem and money is a massive problem.

A: Do you get funding here at all or…?

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P: We only get funding from Belfast City Council and we don’t get any funding from Sport Northern Ireland. They did the big thing for the club but that was a one off and you don’t get much funding from them.

A: So I was speaking to *Redacted – IABA source* and he was filling me in on the issues with funding up here and how the money had gone to two Unionist clubs out in towns in the countryside.

P: Well, I don’t feel comfortable speaking about that as I don’t feel it’s my place to comment.

A: That’s ok, we can move on from that subject.

P: I mean, I think *redacted* is also afraid to speak up down there in Dublin. But here the funny thing about it is the funding for the High Performance for Ulster boxers, comes from Northern Ireland but they send it down to the High Performance. They don’t pay Ulster boxers directly, it goes to the High Performance and they send it up. Whatever way it was.

J: We have our own unit. The County Antrim unit.

P: Aye, we have fifty clubs up here in Antrim. I think Dublin is only about four or five clubs in front of us. There’s four provinces in the two counties, they’re going to the all-Ireland’s to do their boxing in the championships. Cork used to be in it but Cork clubs dropped away.

A: What was the reason for that?

P: I’m not sure, you couldn’t pinpoint a reason for it.

J: But historically there’s just areas that have always been strong. I think here it’s almost like a parish thing, there’s a boxing club in every parish, and it’s just continued and there’s been a few other clubs that have just grown. There’s new housing estates and developments which have brought this about and new clubs have popped up in these areas. So we’re quite happy in this club in terms of juvenile boxers, but other clubs in other areas aren’t as happy.

A: They’re struggling are they?

J: Aye, well I think our championships weren’t great, the one, two, and three juveniles. Like we put five in and were one of the biggest contributors to it. Some clubs may only have had only one in it. And the breakdown of the Championships, there were a lot of byes and I don’t think in terms of women boxing either…

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P: Yeah, women’s boxing here is…

J: It hasn’t kicked off the way in Dublin it has kicked off.

P: The Irish have picked up bigly.

A: I’ve noticed myself the rise in young girls in Dublin, and there seems to be a bit of a push. Having a few female boxing icons, Irish or otherwise, will only help in this area.

P: Aye, there’s a couple of girls in the side, there’s Kellie Harrington and she’s pretty decent. Kellie and the other girl… but Kellie Harrington is number two in the world actually. The other girl, god I can’t remember her name is also very highly rated in the world too. But up here…

J: Very poor.

P: Very, very poor.

J: I don’t know why but historically it’s always been a male dominated sport. We had two girls here a couple of years ago and one of them left, and as soon as one left the other one left. And what’s needed is a whole funding and transformation program that is needed. If we were to the Championships, we take the guys down to the Championships, and say we were to bring female boxers, then we’re into a whole different scenario.

P: It’d be very awkward. [planning wise]

J: We’d have to get a female coach, an extra hotel room, it a big operation. That needs to be teased out that that whole question around that and we’re saying about how do we encourage more females to come into boxing, well people need to sit down and have that conversation.

A: Would that entail a rebranding? That may be very difficult when it has been viewed as a male, working-class sport.

J: It’s a change of culture, that’s what they need to do.

P: Even around Cavan, there’s a couple of clubs that are nearly exclusively, mostly women. It’s a big thing with travellers too, with the travelling ladies or whatever you want to call it. In Ireland, there are only 70,000 travellers, like it’s not a big amount in comparison with the population when you look at it. But a lot are in pockets, and so you get this scenario. We’ve no travellers up here with us.

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J: Well we did have a couple of guys who boxed here.

P: Yeah, but they’ve settled in now the ones up in Glenrose. We don’t have any but there’s a big population of travellers in Derry, and up in Donegal. But we haven’t got any here at all. I don’t think there’s actually any boxing here in Belfast at all. But that’s just what I’m saying with the funding, but back to the ladies. In my opinion, you have to have two separate committees in the club, you’re going to have to have a ladies committee to look after the female side of things. We’ve got the facilities for it, like the toilets and things like that.

A: But a lot of places wouldn’t?

P: Well we don’t encourage it enough actually to tell you the truth, because I don’t know how clubs can do it. We’ve enough on our hands with kids, you know what I mean?

A: And I presume Gaelic is massive around here as well?

J: It is.

P: It is, aye.

J: Hurling and Gaelic is very, very big here.

P: Coming out of mass on Sunday morning at half eight mass or nine o’clock there’s a big bus pulled in across the road, a big ol’ dingle dagger and I was wondering what it was doing. Coming down the street there must have been about forty kids, all with the gear on them, all four, five and six year olds. But they were promoting. You see Gaelic has a great system because in the summer time, over in the pitches there in St. Agnes’ across the way there…

J: You know where the green place is where you stopped, that the wee St. Agnes’.

A: Oh yes, yes, the one directly across from here?

P: Aye, they have their kids out there on a Saturday and Sunday morning…

J: Doing summer schools and all that.

A: Putting all their effort behind it all.

P: It’s brilliant what they’re doing, they really deserve credit.

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J: You see they got the support base there, whereas it’s me and Patsy and we’re down here, and we have to work. People forget people have to work.

A: You have to have jobs as well?

J: Aye, nobody gets paid for it. So you’re competing against all that there, it’s…it’s…But there’s loads, you know cultures change. Years ago, we got to come down here when we were in the old burnt cabin as a kid, you didn’t have an awful lot in your community here, in the 70’s and stuff, and it was the height of a conflict. The parents wanted their kids into the boxing club and stuff like that, but now you have everything. There’s youth clubs, there’s more fun, you’ve leisure centres, you’ve got all these different things and different sports are popping up all over the place. Kids have a multiple choice now.

A: You were saying earlier that this was set up back in the 70’s back when it was a little shack and eventually came into this. Did you set it up with the intention of being purely a boxing club or was it set up as a youth club and then…

P: Where’s Jimmy Finnegan? *looks around for photograph in the room* That guy there is Jimmy God rest him. *points to photo* We formed the club in 1970. We were up in the schoolhouse, and it became derelict so they gave it to us. He worked for the Bishop, Father Jackie Fitzsimons and there was a lot of trouble up in that area. There was a lot of people forced out of their houses, a lot by the British Army, but he’s a great fella. But he left the priesthood and he married, wee Jackie. He was the manager of County Down football team for a long time too, but he got us this wee school and we started off there in 1970, that’s 47 years ago. [Laughs]

A: [Laughs] Time flew? Haha

P: But we got burned out of there and I always blamed Jodie for it God rest his soul. Jodie loved an old smoke and he loved to smoke after training. I used to say in between rounds you would give Jodie a cigarette and a cup of tea and he’d be back. But a wee fire started in the wee dressing room.

A: Ok so it was an accident then?

P: Well it was an accident so we were burnt out there and we moved down to a wee place called Barrackhouse and it was a barracks where the ‘B-Specials’ used to live in, we stayed there about six months. After that, Jordie Shannon gave us a wee hut and said take that over.

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We were there for about 5 or so. Here, where we are sitting now there used to be a big hen run, there was no windows or nothing in it because they were only clucking hens in it [Laughs]. But it used to be the Catholic ex-servicemen’s, they started this when the Troubles were on, so not everybody knew there were Catholic soldiers running about, or I certainly did not. But they were there for years, it got burnt and they left it, and everybody started calling it ‘the burnt cabin’. So it was a smashing place but it was laying idle and we were up the hill, we were actually looking for somewhere and god rest a man who was next to us, Jack McCartin, who was the manager of the club, said to me come and take a look. I said ‘Jack I couldn’t take a look at this’. But he said come and have a look and we’ll get you some help and all. There was some great old men, god rest them they’re all dead, Albert Price, Paddy McCabe, Gerry Madden, all came in and in about 6 months in about winter time it looked great. So we were there up from about 76’ up until 94’.

A: And was their great interest there from the start?

P: Oh it was great!

J: Aye, it was! But as I said, that was the height of the Troubles and everything that was going on. People were worried where their kids were and where they were going at night, they wouldn’t let them out. But if they were in a boxing club, boxing clubs in Belfast played a big role for a lot of young people, it gave them an outlet.

A: Yeah that’s what I would have thought, especially with a lot of built up anger and frustration with everything that is going on.

P: It was also very good at the time on the Protestant side of the town, they had a lot of boxing clubs too. Never once in years did we have a trouble. We used to travel up the Shankhill Road and everywhere and they came up to us.

A: And no issues?

P: Never any incident, no issues.

A: That’s unbelievable!

P: Ohh that’s a fact.

J: You might have got somebody shouting something but they would have been ejected from the arena straight away.

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P: But it was brilliant, them coming up here and us going up the Shankhill Road, up to Lisburn at the time, and down to Newtownabbey, and Rathcoole. We were everywhere in regards to boxing and there were great friends.

A: This then begs the question, what was it that made the difference? Is it due to the niche standing of the sport, was it the respect gained from knowing that you and your opponent were putting yourselves in some level of harm’s way when you’re in the ring? Did you ever think about why?

J: Well, I’d have never had a sectarian thing about me. Sport is sport, and young people in sport were young people in sport. I don’t care who you are or whatever. If someone comes in here and asks to join the boxing club I don’t say ‘well where are you from?’ or ‘who are you?’ or see what colour you are. You know? Come in and join the club.

A: But isn’t that what makes boxing very different [J: It is!], especially when you think about football. Football, to me, people automatically start going into the mind-set of it’s us against them, whether it be Catholic/ Protestant, Unionist/ Nationalist, or even Drogheda/Dundalk.

P: Well in one sense there can be good friendly rivalry but here, in soccer, there’s still that wee bit of sectarianism. Now it’s not from the clubs, it’s from the spectators or their supporters; they’ve still got that wee thing in them. There’s the club here, Linfield, now they’re a big club. I remember when I was a kid they did play Catholics because they played a lot of south of Ireland men. But it seemed to die out long before the Troubles, you know them signing Catholics. It had stopped. Then during the troubles you wouldn’t have got a Catholic to even go and support them or go to Windsor Park. But now, there’s a lot of Falls Road’s lads play for Linfield now.

A: Really?

J: Oh aye! There’s a lot of young lads from the Falls playing there now. Young lads will play anywhere there now.

A: I expected it to still be very much your traditional Linfield and Cliftonville divide.

P: No, no, sure Cliftonville have a load of young Protestants playing for them now. Glentoran is another example in which their team is half and half now. In fact, three or four of their past managers have actually been Catholic lads who have played for them and become manager,

145 things like that. As I say it’s the supporters, it’s not the teams themselves. Well it’s out of football now in regards to who plays for who, you can play for anyone you want now.

A: Ok, I just knew that Derry City had been pulled out of the league and joined the southern division.

P: Well Derry, they were…well Derry was a bit different. They were so close to the ehhhh…I don’t like mentioning it…the border; they were so close to Donegal and the Republic there. Plus the fact when they did come up here at the time it was at the height of the Troubles, after the riots in Derry and all that you know, and they did take a lot of abuse here. I think they done the right thing.

A: By taking them out?

P: Aye, I think they done the right thing. Belfast Celtic left as well back in 1947 and never came back again. Belfast Celtic Park, aww they used to call it ‘Paradise’. But it was great and half the team they played was Protestant, all the time. I done ball boy for Belfast Celtic as a kid, 8 or 9 years old. We had a wee team up here called St. Theresa’s and we used to go over to do the ball boys over there. But there was never anything on the field, it was from the supporters, or so called supporters.

J: You can do your best, us here, our door is open to everyone, I don’t care what you are, but that’s all clubs can really do. You always get an element, somewhere, someone, it only takes one person to create a major issue. But by in large I think most clubs are pretty progressive in where they are going and what they are doing. One of the big things, is see now, is coach education, and they can’t throw enough into it, and it’s important that they do. What we are dealing with now is what we never dealt with before, kids looking to talk. You’re trying to get kids to speak out, but you don’t know what is coming in the door. West Belfast has a massive suicide rate among young people. But boxing for me is a great way out for young kids, you come in here and start training, building up friendships, because friendships in here are lifelong.

A: Well that’s my next question is to ask you about the relationships between the boxers.

J: Well fathers who have boxed here, their sons have boxed here…

P: We’ve even got into grandsons here now…

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J: That’s right, it’s just continual. It is special…it gives the kids a broader family. We get kids come in here, and it’s nothing to do with anything that happens in here, it’s always something to do with outside. And you do your best, we’re not trained councillors. But you try to keep listening and getting them to speak and try to identity the problem.

A: I suppose they have a level of trust in you and they know they can speak to you and you’re not going to go out and say it to the other lads.

J: Absolutely!

P: No, no, no, it’s true, that’s true.

A: It must be tough for you at times? But at the same time you must take some level of comfort knowing that this person feels they are able to open themselves up to you?

P: Yeah you do enjoy it, if you like it and want to do it, you’ll do it. If you don’t then you need to walk away from it, you couldn’t be allowed in it. We’ve had very few people ever come in here and walked away from it in a sense. Even the boxers still come here and are hanging about, and they’re all great friends with each other still.

A: And how many people do you have here now at the moment?

J: We would have about 25 here at the moment.

A: 25, ok. And what’s the age?

J: From about 9 up to about…our oldest guy is…you’re going up to the Met today aren’t you? Are you not going to the Belfast Met?

A: No. I’m going to the City of Belfast Boxing Academy, the far extreme.

P: [Chuckles] Oh ho ho. You have no idea. Do you know about it?

A: Ah well I know the area it’s in and I’m meeting Terry.

P: Terry…[Laughs again]

A: I was telling him what I was doing and that and he just said you’d be surprised at the amount of sectarianism in boxing.

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J: We brought Terry, when he just started, we brought him up to our club for one of our clubs shows and it’s the only time. And we had a few of his boxers boxing in there. Brilliant, nothing said, everybody happy with it. So then we returned some of our boxers up to their show in Stormont. So we had put out the arms of friendship out as a welcome to come in here, which we do with every club. But I don’t see them now at all.

P: They broke away. Terry’s not a boxing club, he’ll tell you he’s a boxing club, but he gave a fuck you to the IABA. He got a lot of grants to do what he said he wanted to do. Knock a hole in the wall and bring the Catholics in, you know. It was all talk. He got a lot of money, and he got an award on television, dinner… To be quite honest he didn’t deserve it. He was talking about boxing, but he doesn’t know nothing about boxing.

J: There’s people who come into this sport… there’s people like me and Patsy and a few others who’ve been in this sport all their life. They give our lives to boxing. We disagree with them and we have our arguments and our debates and stuff, but they’re all in it for the same reason, they’re all boxing people.

A: You can still relate to them?

J: Oh aye, but recently there’s been people who’ve come into boxing who’ve never been in boxing. Some of the nonsense and rubbish you’ve to listen to is unbelievable. Unbelievable! I don’t know what they’re at. It’s not that they’re spoofing, they’ve got a different agenda from a lot of the other people. And listen we’re boxing clubs, there’s a line of decency among everyone.

A: There’s a certain respect.

J: We’ve a County Board there, see if somebody has anything to say or…go down on your Tuesday night meeting and say it. All this, I’ve seen more and more of it, you know, individual people falling out with other individuals and other clubs, and it sparks a whole web of nonsense. And you’re left saying, ‘what’s this all about?’

P: We never got into it, we don’t want hate involved, we don’t have time for that. Anybody who has time for doing that can do that, we don’t have the time. It left a sour taste in people’s mouths when so many clubs broke away. In my opinion, they must have had no brains because when you’re a boxing club in Ireland, Ireland is a 32 county sport. Headquarters is Dublin, IABA on the South Circular Road. Every club affiliates, you’re insured, we pay

148 insurance and it all goes to Dublin where all sides are protected and all this privacy goes to Dublin and is sent back again, nobody knows anything except the proper people. But these people broke away because of certain things and they didn’t want their privacy written out or read in Dublin.

J: Like, there was never any problems in the height of what was going on here, in terms of the conflict. But this only happened over a short period of time…

A: Ok, so there was a certain agenda?

J: Aye, and see the agenda that some of the politicians were talking about…to me personally, I think that some of these people had some sort of, of felt that they were being alienated in Loyalist communities.

P: Which they weren’t.

J: Ok, well quite a few are back.

P: They all came back, except for I think there was only two or three of them. City of Belfast is one of them.

J: See it’s an identity problem.

P: What they wanted Jimmy, what they really wanted was another Northern Ireland football team. They’re attached to Europe and the World, they can play in the World Cup. Scotland and Wales they’re the same, but in the athletic end of it they can only be represented by Great Britain, the Olympic Games and that. But the group that we are talking about, and Jimmy has mentioned them breaking away, they wanted to have a Northern Irish Boxing Association, where they could go and box and represent Northern Ireland, and if they wanted they could represent Great Britain in boxing. Whoever took that up, seemed like a great idea if you could do this, but when you’re affiliated to a body and the body is affiliated to Europe, and they’re affiliated to the Olympics, and they’re affiliated to the Worlds’, you can’t turn around and say you’re going to do this. Because you’re not allowed to box other clubs that who’s affiliated. The clubs are even now not allowed to agree with them and affiliate them and in turn box each other. We’re not allowed to do that! And to box for, to win an English vest, you have to go and reside in England for 6 months, you’ve to be a member of an English club. They mustn’t have went in to all these details, you can’t do that, they can’t box then, so I don’t know why they wanted to break away.

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J: But you see when they formed the group, one of the things that I was sort of put off by right away, why did they not ask me to come to their meeting? Why did they not ask us did we want to become part of it? Nobody said to me do I want to become part of it.

A: Straight away they were drawing the line that they were different?

J: In the Commonwealth Games, the boxers go and represent Northern Ireland. So what’s the problem? Why we we’re all not called by the guys, ‘listen here’s what we want to do, do you want to do it?’

A: There was nothing at all?

J: Aye, so when we weren’t invited, to me there was a difference made in boxing. It was purely sectarian!

P: They made the difference alright yeah.

J: The facts speak for themselves when you look at it, you should ask him that question.

A: I will yeah.

J: Well they came over here and boxed here, you can mention that, when they just formed in the social club, yeah, and they were all treated very well, and we responded by going up to Stormont, so there was no problem then.

P: A couple of members of parliament jumped on the bandwagon, Jim Allister from here, Kate Hoey, she’s from here but she’s in the British government. They jumped on this bandwagon and we’ll get Northern Ireland part of this.

J: But it petered out…

P: Oh aye it petered out!

A: So the majority came back but there’s a few left?

P: There’s only a couple left.

J: But see one of those clubs that was really involved in it at the start was Sandy Row, but they haven’t competed in boxing in a long time.

A: Oh really?

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J: An agenda. They’re all ‘keep-fitters’ in the gym. I can’t remember the last time I seen any of them at any board meetings.

P: They accused of getting harassed.

A: Was it fabrication?

J: No, the incidents did happen here, but we can only do so much. If I ever seen any incidents we’d be the first people over to knock that on the head. If somebody throws a stone at somebodies car outside, I can’t do nothing.

P: The last time they competed was in St. Kevin’s Hall, they brought their boxers in, and it was blatant what they were doing, their boxers were all kitted out in red, white and blue. You know, I didn’t mind it at the time, if it had of been one kid, but this was a whole team of them coming into this the same way. Because what we disagreed on, if you want to put it on the Catholic side of the city, we didn’t agree with boys coming in on our side of the fence with green white and gold shorts. I disagreed with that right away, I didn’t think it was necessary. It wasn’t necessary that they wear them things because they weren’t club colours then, you’re supposed to have your own club colours which we and all clubs do. But these kids, individual kids now, you can’t blame the clubs, starting to wear green, white and gold. Sandy Row didn’t like that so they had all their kids wearing red, white and blue. And they got a bit of banter about it, but I remember the night and they got a bit of banter, but it was only a bit of banter. They made a very big deal with it so they did.

J: There was a report done, see when all this was going on, there was discussions in Stormont, where there was the *inaudible* report drawn up and there was a list of stuff recommended in terms of colours and that, but nobody objected.

P: No.

J: Try and get your hands on that report and see what the recommendations were.

A: What year was this done in now?

P: It wasn’t that long ago, maybe four years or so.

J: And like if someone had a grievance in boxing and they weren’t happy with the board or the Ulster Board, then there was somewhere where their grievance could be heard outside of that, if they didn’t feel as though they were getting a fair hearing. So there were mechanisms

151 put in place, and things put in place, to address what somebody seen as inequality, or they weren’t being treated right. Well there’s that there. You know so, wee things have changed, you said it too yourself Patsy, in Dublin or here, the green white and gold gum shield, that’s all away. You don’t see that anymore.

P: Ah you don’t want to see that anyway.

J: No, like we have our club colours and that’s what we wear all the time, we wont let our kids wear that.

P: No, no I wouldn’t want them in it anyway.

A: At the end of the day you can always tell them to do their speaking in the ring anyway.

J: Exactly.

P: True. We’re trying to get all flags, we have all flags of the world up out there, you know what I mean. That’s what I like doing because we are part…

J: We even have English things…[Laughs]

P: [Laughs] We are a non-sectarian club. We’ve had coloured lads in, Filipinos in, we’ve had lads in from everywhere.

A: And it makes no difference, well you wouldn’t expect it to make a difference.

P: No, why would it. We would like a whole lot more in to tell you the truth. There’s a couple of lads further up the road there, there’s a wee estate up there and they wanted to come down here, their father wanted to bring them down here. They were originally from Cairn Lodge, but the kids said they were a wee bit afraid because there’s a week enclave up there in Suffolk. The kids were nice and their father was a nice lad, he boxed for Cairn Lodge and he come down and he wanted his kids to come down and I said no problem, and he came back and said he’d no problem but the kids were a wee bit nervous to come down.

J: *Points at picture on wall* There’s one of our clubs up with Ledley Hall.

P: We were great friends with Ledley Hall, still are. A lot of the guys who run Ledley Hall at the time are now dead, Herbie Young and a couple of the other ones. *Points at another picture* Sure look there’s even the Irish team standing behind the Union Jack [Laughs]. That

152 was in Portsmouth. We won four gold medals and four European gold medals. There’s Joe there now, he got thrown out of the Olympics, he was backing himself to win.

A: How’d he get caught?

J: Putting it up on Facebook or something.

P: Aye, that Facebook is a killer [Laughs].

A: Would you go abroad often then or no, like if there were Championships?

J: We went to Portugal with a few of the Antrim teams, Patsy’s been all over the world with Ireland and stuff. There’s actually one going to Paris next week. Not sure I’d go to Paris now though.

P: Our club has a great history in boxing itself. We started off and we were one of the youngest clubs but now we’re third or fourth oldest club in Ulster. Holy Family were formed about five before us. And maybe Clonard and Lisburn. But we were very nearly.

A: And are the majority of the clubs in the North still going strong? Has there been any closures for example?

P: No, no…

J: No, not really, they mostly keep going. There’s times there that you’re flying like, we’ve got Cacace and Tommy and Tyrone and the club has had great success with them over the years.

P: We won 16 all-Ireland titles over a period of two years.

A: Over two years??

P: Aye. We do keep their diplomas up out there. That’s only some of them, we’ve more to go up. That started off with one kid bringing it in, can’t remember who. Next thing I bought all the frames for them, but it’s good for all the kids to see them. We’ve been very successful. When we opened up in the 70’s, we had two Ulster champions in the first season we opened up, very few lean years. All senior champions, junior champions, we’ve won every title there is to win in Ireland anyway [Laughs]. We’ve done well.

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A: And the majority of the lads who come in here, are they brought in by parents or do you get many lads just turning up on their own?

J: Some do aye.

P: Some come in with maybe one of their mates, maybe parents come in and ask can they join. Parents bring the smaller ones down and pick them up at night.

J: There behind you there’s a picture of the old club.

P: See the bags?

A: [Laughs] I’d say they were hard to hit!

P: Red army bags full of rags, paper and whatever. You see those metal bars, we couldn’t put nothing on the roof it’d been burnt that often, the roof was that fragile. One day I came in and I couldn’t believe it, the ceiling was down to here [a few feet off the ground]. I said aw jesus what am I going to do now? So we got those extending bars and pushed the whole ceiling back up again! And the last day we were in the club, the last day it fell, God rest Johnny’s brother Packie was in the club with us. It was the 4th July, Sunday the 4th July, and I was up having my dinner up the hill. I don’t know who it was came to the door and it was a lovely summer’s day too. ‘Patsy…the club’s on fire, come down’. Before that we’d had small fires, bloody tinderbox. I run down and the two fire brigades were there and they were just standing there. I said to the firemen ‘put it out, put it out!!’ He goes ‘there’s no chance, just let it burn’. It was all wood, so I just stood there and watch it burn. But people used to joke with me. Before it burnt down we were given 6 months to buy the place or get out. But they came up to me and Packie and asked us how much ground do we want. But we got together and it cost us £7,800 in 1992.

A: And how long did it take you to get it back up and running again after that?

P: Well, I’ll tell you. Packie and I had a wee bit of a dispute so he left. He was a great friend, he really was, I loved him to bits. But I was on my own then and I didn’t know what to do. We owned the ground but…[laughs] But I was at a funeral one day and im walking down the road and Sean McLoughlin walking with. He said ‘hard luck about the club and all Patsy’, I said ‘aye’. He says ‘there’s a new place open down in *inaudible*. They call it Make Belfast Work, go and see a fella called Basil Glass’ I think he was called. Basil Glass! I went down and told him the situation and told him I owned the ground. I kept torturing him and torturing

154 him and one day he loaned me £90,000 but we still needed another £30,000. So I went down to Pat Magee, Pat’s the boxing promoter, he owns that big supermarket and all that down there. I knew him well and I say ‘I want you to do me a favour Pat, will you write me a check out for £30,000’. I told him it’s only a bluff and if you wrote that out for me I’d bring it back up to you. So I went down to Dougie Adams and he wrote me a letter saying he would cover anything. Then John McIlowen, the Circuit Builders done a wee deal with him for the houses there, got the club built. It did cost us £130,000 then, it was built inside four or five months. So we opened up then in 92’.

J: But we’re still in the same spot now. And the other work that was done was Belfast City Council.

P: We had to wait 25 years for that. We couldn’t get the money.

J: We got showers, and toilets and glass and heating put in.

P: New ceiling and lighting. We got £67,000 worth of work done from Belfast Cit…actually was it Sport NI Jimmy?

J: Aye, Sport NI. The Minister was Carál Ní Chuilín at the time and because of the success of boxing in the communities, they thought that the money was been given to the GAA, Windsor Park, Casement Park. We were one of the most successful sports in Ireland but it was about time that they rid did the clubs and the stadium and the facilities. So they came around all the clubs and if you owned your own club, you were quids in right away. Because people had clubs that they rented and they were a bit reluctant to go in and up do that…So they had to get a 25 year lease and stuff off them, but we were lucky enough that we owned this club.

P: We owned this club.

J: So ours went through straight away.

A: That’s fantastic.

P: There’s only two clubs that have ownership.

A: I’d say you were overjoyed to have that happen?

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J: Oh aye. We used to have our shower fucking flooded every night, a wee hole in the ground. We now have male and female showers, the heating was brilliant, the gas heating. We had oil out there and …now it’s just a touch of the switch and everything is on.

P: We’re lucky in a way that everything is now seeming to run smoothly for us.

A: Well I hope so. Do you mind me asking by the way, are the majority of the young lads from around here or?

J: No, no, not really no. A lot of our young lads come as far as Lagmore, they’d travel.

P: Would you believe this, you see this part of the estate, this is the oldest part of the estate ever built, it was the first part. We’ve had very few, very few from around here. Now don’t get me wrong we’ve had them but the majority have come from way down the road.

A: That’s surprising…

J: Well it’s a case of people knowing where to go. For example, see if I was putting a child in the sport, I would have a look around.

A: To what’s good in the area?

J: Aye. Historically this has been a very successful club and the kids have been well looked after. A lot of people…

P: You know we were here, we’re still here but what I’m trying to say is that there are people who still don’t know we‘re here.

J: You couldn’t even find us.

A: Yeah I had to find you on the Antrim Boxing website.

P: Well we got the Oliver Plunkett name after starting off in the youth club. But boxing is a very solitary sport and it doesn’t work very well with youth clubs. But we were up and going 6 months and we’d a show in a big nightclub for its time, in about 72’, just after we opened. But we must have cleared at least £600 after bringing a group up from Dublin. That was serious money back in those days. But Tommy Johnson came up a few days later and said, ‘right, how much did you make?’ ‘Now you have to hand that over to the youth club.’ ‘Hand what over?’ ‘Hand our money over to you? And what are you going to do with it?’ ‘It goes

156 into the kitty.’ Probably buy football gear with it. But we had that here before where we’ve been made to hand money over or we wouldn’t be able to get the boxing gear.

A: I think that’s one reason why I’ve a lot of respect for what you’ve done here, boxing is very much a sport where you have to look after your own, after yourselves. You don’t get the attention or fundraising that the Gaelic clubs will get.

P: In our case, we run a boxing show to raise money. The footballers don’t need to run shows, what are they going to run, a cabaret?

J: The sport is that big now, boxing, and there’s that much going on, you need the money, especially if you want to be competition in tournaments. We’re going to Dublin, we’re going down for Easter week. Sure, you’re down there for a week. Taking the kids away ain’t cheap and a lot of the time we don’t take anything off them. Like you’re bringing them down there, you’re looking after them, you’re feeding them, you know.

P: All these overheads, you need to pay for them somehow.

J: Like we’d always charge just 3 quid a week, that’s to train 5 days a week.

P: Maybe we’ll have to put it up to a fiver next year [Laughs].

J: So it’s cheap like.

P: But you’ll still get people complaining though! We would maybe make on an average for a month…maybe £200. It’s not bad. There’s entry fees here, and there’s entry fees there for different things and you never get to keep the money.

A: I’ll have to stop down to Dublin and see the lads fight. What ages?

J: Boys 1,2 and 3. So 11, 12 and 13. Boys from all over Ireland. It’d be great to see you pop down.

A: I’ll 100% be up for that. But listen thanks a million for your time.

J: Not at all, stop up whenever you like.

A: Yeah I’d love to come up and even watch the lads spar a few times.

P: You’re more than welcome whenever Alex honestly!

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