Simon Creel< Managing Director, HHG Legql Groue_ An Interview with James Versteegen Article Cl~rk, HHG Legal Christian Porter

The first in a series of interviews I suspect that is something to do with the nature of some of the with former and current Attorneys­ traditional, conservative aspects of Australian business and legal General. society. I hope that is changing and I suspect that because of the

Former Attorney General and demographics of the baby boomer generation retiring that there Treasurer of and will be a greater requirement to give more responsibility to younger the current Liberal Party candidate people. for the federal seat of Pearce. In politics the flip side of early responsibility is the fact that experience Mr Porter, your involvement in counts for a lot in politics. You have to have some scars and see how politics is, on one level, very much a people win and lose in the great marketplace of ideas. If you go into family affair. Can you take us through it fresh without that experience you take on a very significant degree your family history with regard to Australian politics? of risk. By the same token you have a great deal of enthusiasm and a belief in your ideas, so you pursue them very vigorously, but politics My grandfather was a first-generation immigrant. He came out to Queensland as a boy with his parents from England and he was a is a high-risk game for young people. man for whom I had a great deal of respect. Did you ever feel that there was a risk you were being set up to fail Now this is all second and third hand, a story handed down simply because of your relative youth? through the family, but the story goes that Robert Menzies asked Failure is an ever-present outcome in politics but I didn't think I was my grandfather to help him establish the fledgling Liberal Party in being set up to fail, for me I think it was a case of a field promotion. Queensland. I believe he was the inaugural state director of the party There was simply a need for someone of a certain qualification and before later becoming a sitting member and a minister in the Bjelke­ background and willingness to get the job done. Petersen government. By all accounts he got on well with Sir Joh, but was very skeptical about some elements of his policy agenda. Again, though, there were risks involved. I went into Parliament and

My father similarly had a background in politics. Following a successful had five months as Shadow Attorney General doing battle with Jim career in athletics, having represented Australia in high jump at the McGinty, who was a highly experienced political performer. 1956 Olympic Games in Melbourne and the 1962 Commonwealth Games in , he helped establish the Fremantle division of the You can get carved up very quickly in that situation. You don't have Liberal Party. He would go on to be the state director of the Party, time to sit back and watch and learn and observe parliamentary a position he would hold for nearly a decade, so politics was always process. You just make sure you know as much as humanly possible, discussed around the dinner table. which meant a lot of long nights spent reading.

You were elected as the Member for Bateman in 2008 and then very Your resignation as Attorney General and Treasurer in May 2012 quickly thereafter elevated to the ministry as Attorney General in caused quite a stir; many believed you could have been the next the new Barnett government. At the time you were deemed to be Premier of Western Australia. Tell us more about what was behind very young to hold such a position, in fact you were the youngest your decision to resign. Attorney General the state has ever had. What do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of your relative youth at the time When journalists talk to me about this, many of them are dying to of your appointment as Attorney General? know if there was a secret conversation between myself and Colin That is a very interesting question. Barnett before my resignation. Was there some kind of succession I would start with a general observation that one of the failings of arrangement that went sour? There was nothing like that. modern Australian corporate society, political society, and I think the legal profession to an extent is that they are very slow to promote Unfortunately, there is a very cynical view in some corners of the and give serious responsibility to young people. journalistic world that the only thing that people pursue in politics is a prize, and that is peoples' fundamental motivation for entering One of the enduring legacies of conservatism within the legal political life. profession in Western Australia is the failure to always promote and reward the merit of younger practitioners. My motivation isn't about prizes and positions. It never has been. Politics is always about compromise and you can't hope to be I am not saying I was necessarily hugely meritorious but my observation is that in the military for instance you can be quite victorious in the marketplace of ideas with every single idea that you tender aged and be in command of an extremely large number hold true. However, there are ideas that are very important to me and of troops making critical decisions, but very rarely do you see that I felt I would be better placed to pursue those ideas in federal rather responsibility put on young people in politics or the law. than state politics.

28 Brief August 2013 What is the philosophical drive underpinning these ideas that has What would you consider your proudest achievements as Attorney seen you make a move towards federal politics? General? I think the nation has taken a wrong turn and I want to be a part of As Attorney General I think the enduring achievements will be in a group of people that tries to get Australia back on track and that selections and appointments. I think that as a government we made means addressing major fiscal problems at a federal level. Things very good selections to judicial office at the Magistrates, District can go bad in a budget very quickly, as they have done under the and Supreme Court levels. I think some of those appointments will federal Labor government and restoring a sound, conservative fiscal make an enduring lifetimes contribution to legal approach is now looming as a huge and hugely important task. environment.

Do you have any regrets at all about the decisions you have made In a public policy sense, law and order was a huge policy issue in the last year? within the 2008 election. I think that as a government there was an No, none; however, there is a lot of personal and family sacrifice that acknowledgement that there was a lack of control being exerted by goes on around federal politics. For instance, my wife Jen was an the Labor government of the day over its processes and outcomes in experienced lawyer and was conducting her first trials at the time I relation to law and order. We went a long way in the first four years resigned from my Cabinet positions, but we had to make a decision of the Barnett government to change both the reality and the public very early on that if I looked at federal politics we would travel perception in relation to that. together as much as humanly possible. Jen has had to reorganise A decrease of overall rates of reported crime by 10% in a State where her thinking about her career to suit me and that is a huge sacrifice. the population is growing by 1,600 people a week is not an easy thing It was a big decision to make and we both had to be comfortable to do. The legacy of the strong decisions and implementation of new that we are doing those things and making the decisions for the policy by the Barnett government in that first term is the fact that right reasons. There are no regrets but we are more open-eyed to the fewer crimes are being committed against Western Australians today. realities of political life now than we were five years ago. Are there any embarrassing or stressful moments that stand out? How would you summarise the true role of the State Attorney General? My chief-of-staff pointed out to me that most of our mistakes were too small for us to learn from. The role of Attorney General is more than just being responsible for a department and a policy area. I think that managing the Attorney Particularly with younger lawyers in mind, how would you General portfolio is a particularly difficult balancing act. summarise the standout differences between a career in politics and a career in a legal practice? There is a tendency for some people to cling in a purist way onto You earn more money in legal practice. That is one standout the idea that the Attorney General's paramount role is to defend the difference. But of course the rewards are meant to be different in judiciary. I think that view no longer represents conventional wisdom each field. The practical difference is the breadth of your exposure and it certainly doesn't represent practical reality. to people's opinions and viewpoints is also exponentially larger in Sometimes it is the case that the policy views of government will politics than in law. diverge from the views of members of the judiciary. That places In my entire time as a lawyer, if I took all the people that I spent time significant degrees of tension between the government, through the with, spoke to and shook hands with, I would have done that in the Attorney General, and the courts. first month of being a politician. There are a number of approaches to dealing with this tension. The intellectual difference I think is also one of breadth, and as The rule that I followed is that I would never criticise judges about a politician you have to realise that you give up the ability to be a positions that they took. I can't recall ever doing that. There are a few wonderful lawyer because you give up the ability to specialise. public comments from judges' positions that I think were worthy of You don't have the time to drill down, research and be absolutely criticism; that didn't happen often, but nevertheless it did happen. perfectly accurate on things, which is what the law demands. As AG you have to turn the other cheek a lot in that position. You In politics it is often the case that a good plan today is better than a have to maintain a relationship with the judiciary, observe strictly the perfect plan tomorrow. separation of powers, which I hope I always did, but at the same time you have to pursue the policy goals of a government that you have How has your experience, in both civil litigation and crimina/law been elected to implement. from a prosecutorial angle, played a role in your political career so far? What advice might you be able to give any Attorney General and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court in terms of how they should I think lawyers can make very good politicians because the intellectual work together? skills that you pick up in the law are very useful in politics. Although one skill, legal advocacy, is not as useful as I think a lot of people I think the relationship has to be conducted respectfully and in would believe because the environment of advocacy in a court is so constant recognition of how the separation of powers is meant to completely different from the environment of advocacy in Parliament. work. In fact you have to unlearn a lot of the things that are drilled into you The difficulty is that this relationship is part of one of the dozens of as a trial lawyer. things that you are maintaining as an Attorney General. It is clearly the case that 30 years ago Attorney Generals were largely minor Managing people is also something that is not usually a skill that policy players in government and had more of a role in representing comes with legal practice. As a practice manager at the DPP, I had the the interests of the legal profession and the judiciary and providing experience of managing 12 people, and then all of a sudden you're legal advice to the executive. Now they have to represent the legal Attorney General and Corrective Services Minister, which means you profession, the judiciary and whatever is perceived as the will of the have about 10,000 civil servants reporting through a department majority that elected you. That is the modern balancing act that is the head to you. The organisational tasks in ministerial politics become role of Attorney General. quite massive. 29 For those of us who have never been involved in politics, how would From time to time I have had difficulty with the Law Society due to you describe the life of a Government Minister behind the scenes? the nature of their advocacy. What are the things that stand out that we don't see? I'm not always sure that the Society is particularly representative I think that the job looks quite hard from the outside, but it is in fact of the broad majority of lawyers. Often views are driven incredibly much harder than it looks. quickly by the executive in a way which raises the question as to Human beings have been facing and enduring separate and related whether there was any significant attempt to discern what is the problems of crime, poverty, social mobility and the delivery of welfare conventional wisdom amongst the wider legal profession. services for decades, if not hundreds of years, and there aren't any But the major problem is that the public advocacy of the Law Society silver bullets. is fairly narrow, and it's almost always reactive. The Law Society deals I think from the outside there is a tendency to look at any given very disproportionately with criminal justice and societal welfare public policy problem and think'if only they would do this: issues, whereas the bulk of the members of the Law Society would be involved in commercial or family law practice. Too rarely in my The number of times that I have had people approach me with view does the Law Society advocate or plan long-range advocacy on a sentence which would begin with 'what you really need to do is commercial practice matters. ... 'or 'the one thing you need to do is ... 'or 'the one thing that you are not to say that they are totally absent from that field, but I think missing is ... ' From the outside it sometimes appears that public policy it's that there is a distinct amount of disproportionality. I think the problems and underperformance in public policy outcomes occur Law Society probably could spend a little time going back to its because we haven't come up with the perfect formula yet, that there membership and considering how to advocate on behalf of these is one simple thing being missed, but that's not how it really is. members with government to grow the industry as a whole- that It is the proverbial balloon, when you squeeze one part of it the would be a really positive long-term project. balloon pops out in another area, so perfection in policy outcomes What advice would you give to lawyers considering a career in is impossible and solutions are gradual, incremental, and reversible. politics? There aren't silver bullets and there aren't magic solutions. Well, my advice is lawyers can and do make great politicians. In the What do you see as the State's most important law reform priorities end, however, you need to pick a job that you are interested in. at the moment? There is that fantastic saying that if you pick a job you like, you don't We spend a lot of time as a government on law and order and issues work a day in your life. of criminality, justice and punishment. One area for the future might be to look cooperatively with the legal profession here in Western For me at least even after a really long day in politics, it is often the Australia as to ways in which we can grow the legal industry along case that you come home and it somehow doesn't feel like you've with the rest of the economy. been at work, because what you are doing seems so important to you it's almost second nature. This is not to suppose that this is not happening now, it very much is, and I don't think government is the whole solution to making it I know many people can feel that about the law. There are times in happen faster but government can be of some assistance, particularly practice where it's just outstanding problem solving and interaction looking at ways in which we as a profession can tap into legal service with clients and working through difficult issues. The question is delivery from Perth as an export service into the region. just what do you think is the better way for you to contribute your energies. As a jurisdiction we provide very high quality legal advice and a very high quality administration of justice here. A significant arbitration One thing I did observe with people like Kim Hames in Health, is and dispute resolution market exists in Asia, and Western Australia that having a deep understanding of the subject matter and the could start to compete with places like Singapore in that regard. professional machinations and the bureaucracy of Health as a doctor, was a massive advantage both to Kim and the state. it's in this sort At what point does uniform regulation, or the lack of it at the of way that lawyers, with knowledge of legislation and legislative moment within the profession, become a major stumbling block? Do you have a firm view on the draft uniform regulations that have process, can make a real contribution to parliament been rejected by WA? I think that it's obviously the case that politics is about having I don't think that it's a 'four legs good, two legs bad' process of butchers, bakers and candlestick makers, as well as lawyers and reasoning when it comes to model legislation and cross-jurisdictional doctors and economists, but you've got to get the balance right. uniformity. In state politics particularly there's been something of an exodus I think in some areas it's desirable and necessary for the economic of the professions from parliament and I don't think that's to the growth of the profession, in other areas it's not. Commercial arbitration enduring benefit of the people. always struck me as one area where it makes complete sense to have largely uniform rules between the Australian jurisdictions. What do you currently see as the biggest failing of our criminal justice system? Given your experience as Attorney General, what suggestions might I think the biggest failing is that in the long run we have failed to you have for both the Legal Practice Board as the regulatory body engender a better understanding in the broad majority of people as of the profession in this state, and the Law Society as its advocacy to how the criminal justice system works. I think people have very body, in terms of stronger relations with the state government? firm views on law and order and criminal justice, and very often those I think the Legal Practice Board operates quite seamlessly. The views have an intuitive truth about them. However, people's lack of Board is a comparatively efficient mechanism for resolving disputes practical knowledge about how the justice system works and about and disciplinary matters at low cost to the profession and it does a what happens in court is often a barrier to good policy delivery and difficult job very well. very difficult to overcome.

30 Brief August 2013 Probably one of the things that I think that we implemented as a What hobbies and interests do you have outside of work? government which will be to the enduring benefit of the state is the One of the things that I did notice about politics is how you cope with very significant reform of the jury system. A lot of people now tap me stress is very important. Stress is very real. Every now and then you on the shoulder and say, in that sort of resigned pleasant sarcastic feel your blood boiling, or your mind wandering from tasks at hand, tone,'l had jury duty last week, thanks a lot mate'. But even in this sort because there's so much going on. of half-joking complaint the same people seem to accept that it's a duty rather than an imposition, and often enjoy the process because For me it's definitely running. I will just go out and run; the trick is of what they learn from it. This civil education about the justice making sure you come back! system is what gives it strength and resilience. All right, the final question. What advice do you have for the I remember corresponding with a very senior lawyer in Perth about growing percentage of the public who, at least from reports in the the jury system. I put a view that aside from all the issues about media, look increasingly cynically about the operation of the legal profession? keeping the executive and the wider state out of decision making in key areas, one of the most important things about the jury Well if that perception exists I don't think that's always a fair system is having decisions about something as important as guilt observation about the legal profession. But if it's out there the or innocence made by citizens, average, everyday citizens. What it profession has to take the responsibility for changing it. means ultimately is that you give the system resilience. Here is my theory on that. The types of outcomes the system provides are such that everyone in There are so many lawyers who spend a lot of time doing pro bono the community is not always happy with the outcome but when the work, or engaging in the community in a way that leverages off public knows that a decision was made by other citizens and not the their legal skills, I think that we should be, as a profession and as ubiquitous 'them' of government or the state or the judiciary- this individuals, trying to do as much of that as humanly possible. is what lends our system enormous resilience. Like being a member of a surf life saving club and helping them on I just detect that we probably need more focus in education curricula occasions with their leasing arrangements, or giving advice to the on instructing people about how our system of justice works. marathon club about contracts arrangements, doing bits and pieces You're currently neither a state nor federal politician. What are you using your legal knowledge in the community. doing at the moment? If you do this you will be a happier person; people's lives seem to I am Professor of Law at . It is the foundation year of be happiest when they're fullest and when they are doing things the Law School and we have a very bright intake of students. outside of their immediate financial or familial interests.

It has been very pleasing to get back to teaching and helping to The other happy by-product is that lawyers doing things for the develop a project that will establish a presence for the Law School community for free means that the prejudices that have grown up in the city. The aim is to engage with the profession to lecture in the in the community about the legal profession get whittled away a day Law School and provide some clinical legal education. at a time. In that way you diminish the prejudice about a group one relationship at a time. My observation about legal education in this jurisdiction, and suspect it's very similar in other jurisdictions, is that 20 years ago We've become so busy as a profession, perhaps there's been an legal education was conducted mainly by practitioners and now it's unfortunate retreat from that level of community involvement. by professional legal academics. That's not to say it doesn't happen, it does happen by virtue of a lot of people doing good deeds, but the more the merrier for the legal There could be a little re-injection of legal education through law profession. schools by the profession to the benefit of students. When I speak to barristers and senior members of the commercial profession they're very willing to come down and lecture for a semester even, and walking across to a city campus and being able to be back in your office conducting your clients' affairs inside an hour is an attractive way to go about making this happen.

Curtin's vision about this is to try and get a city presence for its law school so that you can have that deeper relationship with the profession and re-inject teaching to the law school from the v Family Court Disputes profession. I hope think that would be to the enduring benefit of v Partnership Dissolutions & Admissions students. v Licensing App lications v Bank Opinions If there's one gadget that you couldn't live without both in politics v Legal Practitioner Referrals and v Tenders & Auctions in the law, what would it be? v Purchaser and Vendor Opinions That's a very good question. Politics is much harder now because v Busin ess improvement Consultation of gadgets. As a politician, your phone rings 40 to 50 times a day, C ontact us today starting at 5.30 in the morning, and the number of emails that you Graham O'H ehir MBA receive is in the hundreds per day. So I think gadgets have made P: (08) 9481 4422 political life harder, not easier. I'd like to get rid of a few gadgets, E: [email protected] rather than pick any more up. It's probably the complete opposite in the law - technology has GMO made legal practice much easier. BUSINESS VALUATIONS No doubt. I mean, think about drafting a lease in quill and ink.

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