An Oral History Of Columbia College Chicago

Luke Palermo

Today is April 12, 2001, and this is that helped me in the job. Sort of And so that’s what happened. I an interview with Lucas Palermo. He’s that practical hands on, you do it started teaching part-time in ’82 a faculty member in the Television on Wednesday, in school you’re and then the job with assistant Department here at Columbia College. working on Thursday, or teaching chairman of the Television it on Thursday. And then I looked Department opened up in 1986. If we could start with, if you in the television program here at And Ed Morris asked me to come could tell us when did you come that time and so I started taking down and talk about the job. And to Columbia, and what were the courses in that and brought that it really wasn’t the job I wanted. I circumstances that brought you material back. And started building was already kind of a department here? a program and the high school and chairperson at the high school Well, it’s interesting, because I continued taking classes. doing well, I knew high schools came to Columbia in two different pay rather well. And I didn’t really times. I came to Columbia in the Then in 1973, was offered a job at want a full-time faculty position at late ‘70s, as a student. And I had Riverside-Brookfield High School, that time. And so he said, “well, I worked on a degree in teaching— as kind of the department can’t tell you what job is open, but actually it was teaching math, and chairperson of an Audio-Visual you must come down and interview was actually working at a high Department. And they really with me.” And I turned him down school, and found that that perhaps wanted to do some cutting edge three times. And finally, during wasn’t really my thing. And a job stuff, they had zero, they thought Christmas break in 1985, he said, opened up in the audio-visual they were going to put a big “just come down and talk to me, all center at the high school, and I splash, big budget into this, and I ask—come down for lunch,” and took it. It was a staff job. And that said, “are you interested in doing so I came down. It’s the assistant was early ‘70s. And television had television?” And I said, “yeah, that chairmanship job, that’s open, but just become a thing in school. It would be great.” And so started the gentleman who was in the job was really the cutting edge, and the there and continued taking courses currently didn’t want anyone to school was Lyons Township High on and off at Columbia. And in know that he was leaving. And so School, and they said, “we’re really 1984, I actually finished the degree he said, “that doesn’t want it public interested in getting into this, are at Columbia. And started teaching at this point,” so I couldn’t really you interested in more of this and part-time. Thaine Lyman, who was some photography?” I said “yeah.” the chairman of the Television Department at that time, liked So, I started dabbling around and what I was doing in class, and they said, well, you probably need knew that I was already a teacher, to get some more background in and said, would you like to teach this area. And of course, the place part-time. And so I started teach- that came up even back then, for ing part-time in 1982 here. And so photography specifically at that I was teaching and student at the point, was Columbia College. And same time, which is really weird. I came down here to one of the But, it’s just an odd set of circum- open houses in the middle ‘70s. stances. But that was what And I said, “well, this would be a Columbia was wonderful about. good place to sort of switch these They recognized that I was a good gears.” teacher, and that I enjoyed teaching that stuff. And it was like, you got And that’s what I did. I took a to be a pretty good part-time couple of photography classes. And teacher. I was younger at that time, and worked with the kids, really with younger people.

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tell you but I, and so then he told Lyman, at the time that I was a What would you describe then at me. And he said, “I think we can student, worked at WGN. He was that time, or maybe if it’s really work together, and I’d really a real craftsman, a real artist. And changed, too, the mission of the like you to join the team.” he shared everything that he knew College—or the mission of your with every student. And he worked department and its relation to And who was Ed Morris? full-time at WGN and was full- the College and the mission of Ed Morris was the chairman of the time here. I don’t know how the the College? Are they one and Television Department. Thaine had man did it; I really don’t. I think it the same; are there differences? passed away in 1983, and Ed took fixed the poor guy’s death actually, No, I think they’re pretty much over the chairmanship in 1984. that he overworked himself. But one and the same. Thaine always he’d be here days and nights. said things like, and I still quote So he was looking for his own him to this day when I do an open assistant? And the students knew that, and house. In the television industry, as He was looking for his own assis- we, all of us that had him as an television professionals and artists, tant. instructor, knew that this guy was we rarely create a television this committed and he was sharing program about television. So that And he wanted you. this knowledge that we couldn’t means that as journalists, as televi- And he wanted me. And so then I get anyplace else. We could get the sion professionals, we have to be took the job, and I started here as a textbook stuff and we could get the familiar with every other part of full-time faculty member in rest of it, but we couldn’t get the society, including history, including August of 1986. practical application and the sort of psychology, sciences and the rest of Okay. Before we go on, I want what you have to do to be success- the arts, because if we’re going to you to go back to your days as a ful. And Thaine and the rest of the be informed producers, writers, student. Could you describe part-time faculty, I think, shared directors, the medium that we’re Columbia from—I mean, I know that. It was like, we love this busi- actually learning is only kind of a you were working full-time and ness, we love this art form, and if technique in the concepts, and we you had a profession, but if you you do as much as we love it, we’ll have to become researchers on every could put yourself in the point of share whatever we can and make other topic. So I think that our view of a student. And this a successful network. All the department’s mission, still very Obviously, it was a much smaller wonderful things, I think, that much aligns itself with the place. Of course, everybody’s going Columbia is known for were crystal College’s mission to put this art in to say that because that’s probably clear in every classroom, and I some perspective, in some the biggest difference between 25 think they still are. But in a bigger construct, authoring the culture of years ago and now. I think the institution, it’s a little harder to see your time sort of thing. I think just students are still the same type of it sometimes, but in a smaller place because of our discipline, it lines students. We still attract the that it was at that time, you knew itself up with that. And he felt that students who are so committed to everybody. You knew all the very strongly, working in the the arts and to the media. At that faculty; you knew all the students. industry. So I still share that with time, the media departments were parents and students now. Because Even as a part-time student, you really the big ones. I mean, students, as you probably now, I know, and I had to come at night Television Department was one of think students nowadays are a little because I was working during the the largest ones at that time, more savvy, about, well, I’m going day, or Saturdays, I still felt like I because it was an upcoming sort of to take my General Studies courses was part f the mixture. The romantic medium. Now we’re sort over here, or I’m going to take community was a little easier to of thought about it in some terms them at the junior college level, or build that, than it is now in terms as an appliance, but at that time it why do I have to take them at all. of a student body. And Thaine wasn’t the case. So it was a bigger shared a lot of information. I And so we’ll say, “you’re going to draw. So the department was again, learned a lot from him, about you work in this industry; you’re going professionally oriented. They had know, what life was like out in the to become a visual arts, a story many part-time teachers. Thaine world of television, and what you teller, but the stories aren’t about had to do to succeed.

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us, and you have to understand a tor, per se. Obviously he was a there were no video stores and lot more about this world than just great teacher, but the rest of those people never saw anybody but television and production and writ- forms and the kind of, were just professional talent on television. ing. And if you learn that in the there on a smaller scale. And I You never saw yourself on the tele- construct of this College, where the think, when Ed came in he realized vision. So for us back then to actu- courses are designed to help foster that we had to formalize a little of ally being recording students and that connection between the arts this more for teaching 12 sections their work, and actually were able and all the rest of society, you’ll be of course, they better be very simi- to show it back on a television, much more successful.” lar in terms of what’s going on, although now seems so mundane, entry-level skills and exit level seems so exciting. And so, to be And I think we kind of win that skills and how the students are able to use a medium that they battle in a lot of ways. I think being assessed. These were words were in awe of and actually tell students finally realized that that’s that weren’t in the vocabulary of their own stories and shoot their the case, especially when they get the college, probably weren’t in the own neighborhoods, and their to be juniors, sophomore, junior vocabulary of most places at that classes, or whatever they were level, they realize, God, if I have time. trying to convey. They actually anything to say or anything to do learned kind of a respect for this to make this art happen, I have to So, I think, I brought that sort of, medium, rather than just being know or be able to find out how to here’s our goals, here’s how we can passive with it and sitting and know about a lot of different do it. I was the first one that stan- watching what was going on. I things. dardized the syllabi across the think that was really important. board. I don’t want everyone teach- I’m interested in your curriculum. ing everything the same, but by the Eventually, working with the high Maybe even you can go back to, time the students leave here, they schools, I decided at the high as in the early days at the high must have achieved this in order to school level, that teaching televi- school level, when you were make the next class work. And sion for the sake of teaching televi- teaching television, what did that that’s what was kind of missing, sion, separate from the rest of the consist of and what did you bring that all these students that took 10 school, was not a good idea. to Columbia and how has that different teachers down here, then Because when cutbacks came, the curriculum developed? Has it got separated and rejoined to take first thing that was going to get changed? It’s obviously evolved. the next class. And some of them cut, was the sort of education that How has it evolved? had this level and some of them appeared to be extracurricular and Well, what I brought to Columbia, had this level, and the teachers at sort of non. And that’s too bad, and I think what made me the upper ends were kind of strug- because I think that television as attracted to Ed, was that I had an gling for, wow, where do we strike well as other art forms, play a role interesting mixture of a television the medium, the happy medium, in every class, in every curriculum. art form as a television artist and an we sure we get everybody, don’t So I abandoned the idea of teaching educator. And as an educator, I lose everybody. television during the school day understood the importance of—and hours, and chose to teach the not to the bureaucratic sense, but So the curriculum at the high students the techniques once a to the importance of curriculum school, though not as sophisticated week and in the evening. And the development, testing procedures because we were working with far high school that we do this, which and objectives and entry-level younger people. We were teaching is really kind of—it’s a great high skills. Of course, at the high school them how to use this medium to school; they were very forward level, especially public high speak with their voice. And in the thinking people. schools, must conform to some early ‘70s, of course, you didn’t pretty rigid standards in terms of, have Camcorders at home. You Was it at Lyons or? have your seniors met this? And didn’t record every wedding. To see No, this was at Riverside. They when I came to Columbia, that was yourself on the television was a were very forward thinking people. a little loose, you know. And monumental experience, because it And I convinced the superintend- Thaine wasn’t you know, an educa- just wasn’t done. It’s hard for ent that rather than meeting one people to remember back, that

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period a day for 5 days, which is 50 them to really get into these And that seems to be very much minutes, one times 5, we meet books.” So we came up, we stole in keeping with what Columbia once a week on a Monday evening part of the program idea from Steve tries to do, not to give the from like 5:00 to 8:00. And I Allen, who used to do a program assignments or projects that are could teach the students the tech- called, Meeting of the Minds. And we very abstract, but what you might niques and the concepts, and then decided that we were going to do a be doing in your – we could have the students avail- series of programs where 6 students And also to have you not work at able during the day, to work with sat around the table with a modera- something like television for the teachers on using television in tor, and they had to portray a char- sake of television. It’s difficult. every other curriculum. So it didn’t acter from one of these books. And stand in this ivory tower by itself. we had Julius Caesar and Lord of the Explain. And also, I think it put it in Flies all together. And the discus- We’re in one of those industries perspective, because students just sions were going to be about a where you can get absorbed with doing silly projects that have no current topic, like abortion or capi- technology, and you can be produc- meaning, you know, learn only silly tal punishment. And they had to ing very little but look like you’re techniques. When the red light portray the character and speak doing an awful lot, because there’s goes on, you hit the green button. impromptu on this topic in that so much graphics. And it’s hard to But if they were paired with a character’s voice. So you had Julius steer students at the beginning past teacher, or a group of students from Caesar sitting next to Adam that, because it is what is attractive another class, then they could share DeFart. I mean, it was the most – to this age group. Oh, my God, we their knowledge about this art. and the students really learned and get to edit, we get this and we have And the students would share their they loved doing it, but they really non-linear—we have graphics. And research on whatever topic and had to read that book. Now, how we keep saying, “that’s great, let’s together, which is the way it’s done would one of the young people get this out of your system, play in reality outside of here, they from Lord of the Flies attack the with the stuff, learn how to use it, could work on a project together. topic of capital punishment? but the most important thing is, what are you going to say with it? One of the most successful things We did a lot of things like that What are you going to do with there, we had a—I was working at the high school, and so we this?” with a sophomore English teacher, made television a part of all the who was teaching advanced level curriculum. The storytelling side of it. English classes. And she had her Yeah, the understanding that these sophomore students. Sophomore’s, So they were producing a show? tools do a lot more than make visu- the worst level to work with in Yes, and our students were the als happen, and it’s a lot more high school, by the way, never producers, were the writers. And so powerful than that. But I think it work with sophomores. they were doing what producers in takes students a couple of semesters our industry do, they pair up with to realize that. Because they’ve only Why, I have to ask? someone who’s the content expert, been used to being passive viewers I think it has something to do with and together they produce a show. of this material, and when you say, hormones, I’m not sure. But the So we sort of set that model in “we’re going to produce a program students are at some strange point place, it’s still in place, it’s still about this, or we’re going to, as we where they’re just, they’re like going strong over there. The young do in our department—our own overgrown 8th graders or some- man that took my job, when I left, soap opera.” And they say, “well, thing. It’s a very weird level to was a former student of mine at the that’s kind of silly.” And we said, work with. But she had this, high school, and so he understood “no, a soap opera’s a form of society, several sections of this advanced what connotation was. And so, he’s it’s a message, there’s stories in English class, and she said, “they’re been there for 15 years now and there. Now you can do something reading all the classic books at this doing quite well. with a soap opera forum here, and level.” And she said, “I want them it’ll be broadcast.” Our soap opera to do something that challenges was broadcast at one time, on 108 their interest, but conveys, enforces channels around the country because we were up-linked on a satellite for UNAP, which was a student network.

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And they found out that they did that we produce, the lowest 15-week course, and the program- issues—because I taught the soap common denominators in broadcast ming or the content change every operas for many years. But they did television. So we tell them, “if it’s time the course is offered? issues like—we purposely steered not going to pass broadcast stan- Well, the people change, but we try them away from doing a soap opera dards, we can’t do it. There was to keep the, you know, the continu- about college. It was like, that’s a nothing about this that was offen- ity going, but that’s difficult. But stretch. Let’s do a soap opera about sive.” And Downers Grove told we weren’t sure— something that you have to them, it was going off the air. And research and learn about. And we the students were shattered and So is it still set in two TV did a soap opera about two televi- shocked. And I said, “hey, this is studios? sion stations in the city of Chicago. reality.” No, it’s evolved. It moved from And one of the reasons we picked that to one of the places that the television station was because we They said, “fine, then we’re off people—you had to have places for had sets all in place, we had studio, from Downers Grove.” So the writ- these people to meet outside of you know what I mean. We didn’t ers created a lesbian character in work, and so they can’t open the build have to build fancy things to the next semester, and her home restaurant. And so suddenly, the get us off the ground. But they had was in Downers Grove. It was like, restaurant became the focus. So to learn about how adults work in okay, guys, you got them back. things that shifted over the real work environments, and how This wasn’t that long ago that is course—what is it now, 15 years? should have been causing such a— office politics and this kind of And now, this past semester, it was thing, and it was great. When did you start that soap called Hungry Hearts. It evolved How did they do that? Did they opera class? titled, but it still actually came go observe; did they interview? 1987. from some of the main characters They observed; they interviewed; that have strung through. And it’s they talked. They did other things And was anyone else doing that with cooperation of the Theater to learn about what was going on. at that time? Department—has been magnifi- And then it went off the wrong No. cent. What we didn’t want, were our students trying to play actors. track, because we need to check So 1987 it continues. that out, because that doesn’t sound So we audition every semester for We got lots of coverage. We were all these roles, and our producers go logical. And so they wrote and in Soap Opera Digest and Soap produced and eventually, you know, over and to the Theater Opera Magazines, Channel, CBS— Department and audition. And so really got into some topics, like CBS Morning Show and the drug addiction and homosexuality there’s the soap opera, we do a news network came into the whole piece program called 600 South. We do a and the homophobic atmosphere. when they were celebrating the 25- And they did one program. For a live news program, updated year anniversary of the soap program called News Beat. And now whole semester the character, it had opera—that we were a student soap two gay characters and they the latest one, is a sketch comedy opera. And they came here—did show like Saturday Night Live that handled it beautifully. They didn’t the satellite live from here. It got a make it silly and stuff. we do, and we just started this past lot of coverage when we were first, semester. And we were on the cable system we first put this out. Because it’s a in Downers Grove. And we got a serialized program that we were But I was involved with each one of call from them and said, we have to doing within a curriculum, which them from the start. And we used stop airing your soap opera, because is tough, because it’s not extracur- to do a music program called Music that the gay theme—these guys ricular. There are four classes that Alive, which was music perform- have touched each other. I mean, it meet together at the same day and ance done with the City of Chicago. was literally a touch on the shoul- time, and each one of them have a Because you know, I sort of worked der or something, but he had a different part in the production. on this idea, carrying it over from shirt off. We purposely—we use, There’s writers, there’s producers— my high school curriculum days, in making the curriculum outside of for all of our television programs And is it a 16-week course? It’s a 15-week course.

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the walls, that it wasn’t just in this And then the next semester they We’ve got to do live. This would building, this curriculum went could take the other section, if you make the students—it’d be really beyond this. And if we’re going to were going to try it from the other interesting to do something live, —it was—I don’t know what you side. The producer could take the where they have to hit the time, call it, an active curriculum, where production side, because it was part and so we kicked off this live news people would at the advanced of the curriculum. update program called Newsbeat, level—students would be working when I took over the Chairman- on a real project, but in the That was path breaking, now, mid ship. And that’s worked out really construct of the curriculum. I think to late ‘80s. Anything else that well. They’re now doing it twice a you can’t separate these two. And you’d like to talk about that week. Students write the packages. too many colleges have got caught maybe in the ‘90s, or other ABC donated a set to us last semes- up in, well, this is an extracurricu- things that you’ve introduced into ter, their old set from Channel 7. lar activity, like the newspapers are, the curriculum that students We had dedicated a studio specifi- and like other things are. And then could find here at Columbia that cally for this use. It’s called the Ed it becomes this elitist group of they would not be able to find Morris Studio, and it’s specifically people that wind up working on— elsewhere? for this broadcast journalism. So you got to go through hoops. I think the live—as chairman—you I’m proud of the fact that we got know, I was interim chairman from the Broadcast Journalism Program These courses that make up our ’98, to last June. And when I took to do more and to really do some programs, are courses within the that role as chairman, I really more cutting edge stuff. And I curriculum, they’re within our wanted the Broadcast Journalism hope that they’ll continue, and required courses, some of them. Program, which had its moments we’ll get on every day live, because Some of them are directing classes. before that. Broadcast journalism live is much different than some- And students can sign up for them. was the first interdisciplinary study thing that’s posted or taped. It’s They don’t have to go through at the college back in 1986, was on really tough to do live news. And hoops. And the course objectives of the first. they take it for granted because are to have the students understand they see, Chicago’s got some of the what it’s really like to meet dead- And that was with television, best local news in the country, lines, to work within a budget, to journalism–- including better than New York. deal with some of these things that Journalism and radio. I obviously So what they see the 2, 5, 7, 9, they’re going to be faced with. But worked on the one with television they take for granted, not easy to do it within the curriculum and and journalism. And it—we had do. And I think if they’re going to have—I think other places in our again designed the same kind of be broadcast journalists, this is the college have done it now, too, when thing that we did with the soap medium they’re going to work I see things like the fashion, opera, with a show called 600 with. They better understand what photography, you know, where South, which was a news magazine this is like, to have deadlines, seri- they’re actually melding these two program. And it worked with a ous deadlines, and to produce things together. So we had a writ- class of producers and a class of something live. There’s a whole ing class, a producing class, a shooters and editors and a class of different energy when you produce production class, and the actors. writers and reporters. And it had it live. So that was probably the And each class had an instructor gone relatively well. other part of the curriculum that. that focused and helped the But when I became chairman— students with their one component, How has the market affected the when Ed retired as chairman, I and the four instructors were team curriculum, or the industry’s said, you know, we really have to that worked together. And so we effect on the curriculum, and if do something more with this met all the time and we said, my it’s positive, negative, both, if Broadcast Journalism Program. producer’s doing this—what do you you could speak to that? know. And all the students met at And so we had this CCM, which I think it’s always positive. I’m also the same day and time. And so is the monitor system rom, a member of the Board of there were 70 students, 80 communications. Governors of the Chicago Chapter students, involved in each of these of the National Academy of productions. But they all had their Television Arts and Sciences, so I set of responsibilities, as it would have my hand in the professional be.

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world pretty deep. I’m a chairman they’re doing all internal training, Now what is changing a little bit of the Emmy Committee locally. communications, and role-playing, in terms of the constants, is that So I see and produce judging panels and scenarios, and situational-based now we have an audience that for professionals all over the tapes that are all produced to help might be able to respond to us, this country. the play. So there’s a whole part of interactive idea; that’s the latest, television that the world never sees. where we have to produce a And I think the industry has had a And so we’ve been doing that for program that perhaps has multiple very positive influence on our years, and have internships in all endings in the entertainment arena. curriculum. It’s hard—we have to the different places. And I think So that we can have the viewer be careful to stay somewhere near this Internet situation and this new decide, would you like to see how the cutting edge, but to not be the technology is just another adapta- this came out?—it’s called branch- cutting edge, because you know, tion of us working with television. ing, in terms of writing. So it had we’ll go off in this direction and to teach different writing styles and everybody else goes off over here. So that anticipates my next ques- different producing techniques, We can’t be too far behind, so you tion, because when you think because now we’re going to give have to keep your fingers on the about how fast technology people choices that we didn’t pulse or you’ll lose it. And I think changes and evolves, what you’re before. the television industry has adapted talking about is constants. And to these changes in technology so so could you be more specific in Is there a resistance to that or well. And I think the Internet and what are the constants that have embracing that? the web-casting thing, which is r emained the same? No, I think there’s embracing that, just at its infancy stage, is starting The constants are visual story- especially when we matriculate to stabilize and it’s looking like telling, interviewing, documentary, students who now were weaned on what we predicted—that that kind entertainment programming, news, a computer. They see this, and you of technology is really going to be you know, the things that televi- know, well, this is great. You have another delivery system for what sion does best can be done no to just sit in front of the TV. We we know as television. And that matter what the technology is. And can make choices and do things. I what we know, as television, will so if you understand how to edit think that’s true with news, you just broaden its parameters to sound and visual together, to make know, all of that sort of interactive. include inner activity and the a statement, doesn’t matter whether I think it’s a good thing. I think Internet and sort of multiple screen you’re doing it on a computer, on a it’s going to be a big buzz thing at viewing. But television—bring tape. If you understand how to first, just the way the Internet was, information and entertainment to a shoot the imagery to tell the story, and then it’s going to calm down. large population, is what we’re still it doesn’t matter—also if you’re And the important parts, that will going to do. It’s just that it won’t shooting it on film, or tape, or help communicate better, are going necessarily take the broadcast look. digitizing it. And so the technol- to remain and the other stuff’s ogy becomes a really helpful tool, going to fall to the side. We haven’t for years. Most but it’s not going to change what is consumers and students who come the basis of this. And so, we keep I was thinking of it, too, though, here for the first time feel like the telling students, we’re keeping up in that stroke between the artist television’s what they see at home with the technology as much as it and the commercial side of it on the broadcast channels, and in can. But it changes week to week. where the artist says, well, the last 20 years, it has been so There’s no way we’re going to say this is how I want my story to much more with cable television, everything we have is state of the be. Well, that’s not what the corporate television, medical televi- art. It’s close. But the important people want. Is there that kind of sion, training programs. There’s thing is understand how to use struggle? whole television facilities and these things. Well, there always is. You know, personnel built within corporations, that drives our industry, obviously. that no one ever sees because We have far less people in our industry versus film, where there

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are filmmakers for the sake of to have more students to up the And so that was our choice. Ed and making film, where they’re not ante, but yet we can’t in hard times I both stood behind it for years. I really connected with some supply the students with what think it’s kept our growth at commercial entity, and in our busi- Columbia has done so well for so modest, but it’s kept our graduates ness it’s not quite that way. But I long, and that includes part-time and our students very happy, think there’s a little more of that faculty teaching classes, small class because we haven’t—our average now, with big conglomerates sizes, enough equipment to go class size is 12.5. And although buying television stations. It’s around, hands-on from the first day, some people think that that’s noth- caused a little more of that ruffling and disciplines like ours. So I see it ing to be proud of, we’re proud of because the people who are in the as a problem. it. If you’re teaching something power don’t necessarily understand that’s this complex and involves what television is, and they’re pres- To go back a second, what has this many different concepts and idents of GE or Disney. that meant specifically for your technology, you can’t learn it en department? Have you been masse. It’s just too hard to handle. But I think that this technology stretched to the limit beyond? And if you don’t have the opportu- has actually helped that, because Have you been able to retain nity to create the work on your what used to be mass audience students? What are the issues own and take it away from here and distribution at the broadcast that face television? work with it, you aren’t going to level—because I’ll be narrow Well, we—Ed and I made a deci- learn it. And so it becomes a casted. And there is a place for a sion back when this was happening balance between facility, students documentary about these kinds of in fast pace, that if we didn’t have and faculty. thing; there’s an audience. It does- the facility to give the student the n’t have to get 9 million people in level of education and contact with And you made that decision or the ratings. And I think that from this—any of these facilities that helped with part of that decision the broadcast side, is very helpful. I they needed—that we were going for your department. Can you think it will always be a strong tool to put a ceiling on enrollment, and address the issue of open admis- for communication and learning, we capped ourselves. sions at Columbia? Would that which is you know, what the other work for Columbia, or do you side, the non-entertainment sort of You did? think that Columbia should side of it is, the information and We did. r emain open admission? learning. You know, it’s a great tool Oh. By capping them, I don’t think to learn from. When was—do you remember that has any impact on open admis- when that was? sion. That we weren’t capping the What if we move out of your—or That was through the late ‘80s, and limit based on anyone’s ability or broaden the discussion beyond you know, when it was really— non-ability. All we said, “was the television? For the College itself, we’ve had 15 sections of this class first 100 students that enrolled for what do you think is in and we could have probably opened this, you know, that’s where we Columbia’s future with respect to up another 5, but would we (a) have the seats.” So yes, I agree with the challenges it has to face and have found qualified teachers that open admissions. I think that also maybe where you see it could really teach it; (b) would we allowing students, especially in this heading, for better or for worse? have had to cut back studio time geographic area, to come in with a Columbia is an embarrassment of for the students’ editing time. More high school diploma, whether riches. And I think that’s what students—we keep a very careful they’ve been successful or not at the happened. I think we’ve grown too student to facility ratio, and if this Chicago Public Schools or any of fast, it’s been wonderful growth, facility is for Video Techniques I, the suburban schools, that with but it’s been uncontrolled growth. and it can support this many support they could pull themselves And I think bigger and more isn’t students, then we stop taking up and work at it. Not lowering always better. And that’s difficult students at that point. Good for the the standards of what we do—but to say, when the operating budget students, bad for the department, you’re going to have to do this is 93 percent tuition dependent. because by putting the caps on, work, because unfortunately your We’re caught in a cycle. We need the students went to other departments.

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reading level, your writing level, You shared with us one of your And we said, “well, for the first your whatever, is behind, and favorite success stories from semester, we’re going to pro- you’re going to have to work really your high school teaching. Do you duce—” they wanted each college hard to get up to speed. But we’re have one from Columbia and your to produce four shows in the first not going to shut the doors on you experience here at Columbia with semester. So we said, “what we’ll because of that. You’re going to the students? do, work it in the curriculum, week have an opportunity to work that I have many of them. Well, what I one we do this,” you know—we out. If you choose not to, that’s —I came here in 1986, as assistant have a 15-week curriculum to work your choice. chairman. Ed had a heart attack in with. And we’ll use the other milk September of 1987—no, that same truck, we have a truck that goes There are student who get behind year. So I was sort of thrust in this out, we’ll shoot some of it in the between the first semester and position, barely knowing where show, we’ll shoot some of it out second semester, it always has been. the men’s room was. And he had here. I think it’s a 20 percent, in our already made a commitment with department. But they’re afforded the City of Chicago to work on this And the first group of students that the opportunity. And more often program called Music Alive, but we had, were just wonderful. They than not, you’ll find a student who nobody had a structure in place. embraced this, and we don’t know has been, for whatever reason, And they said, oh, we’re going to quite what we’re doing for sure. deprived of the opportunity to provide up and coming bands from We know that Maris is going to really help themselves or work the City of Chicago, the City provide us with the groups, you’re hard, and when given that opportu- and the National Association of going to have to meet with the nity—really shine, especially when Recording Arts, and Sciences—the groups like clients, you’re going to they find something that they people who do the Grammy. These have to sign contracts. There was really have a passion about. And we three groups were going to get this real live situation. But we see that over and over again, together and were going to produce created courses that were in the students who came in really floun- a cable television program for the curriculum that worked with this, dering and lost and low reading Chicago Cable System, which was and we just created them out of and writing, and the motivation new at that time. And they got nothing. It said, “okay, this is was in order to get to the next Northwestern, Columbia—I think going to be a directing class, this class, you’re going to have to get it was DePaul, but there were five one’s going to direct music,” and this, you’re going to have to go to colleges. And we were among therefore it’s going to have to meet the Writing Center, you’re going to them, and we felt very proud. our criteria for directing class and have to work on this. And they do. was going to direct music and And so without that open admis- I’m sorry, this was ‘8–- therefore was going to have to meet sions ability to let the students do This was ’86, right. And then Ed our criteria for directing class, but good, it’s a problem. had this attack, and he had the the music they are going to direct connection with the City. Now, he was going to be music performance. Now, do I think we should let had fostered this work, and And there will be a group of everybody in who wants to—just suddenly I’m brought in on these students getting independent study based on sheer numbers? No, obvi- meetings. And they’re saying, well, credit who work with the produc- ously I don’t think that. I wouldn’t we don’t have any structure in ers, and they will actually be work- have supported us putting ceilings place; we don’t know how we’ll ing with the City. on. But the ceilings have nothing work this, you know. So each to do with this, absolutely not, college sort of did their own thing. So we had these meetings, we had absolutely not. Northwestern did their thing, and I the City over here, we had the think it was Kennedy-King, one of lawyers. It was wonderful. It was a the Chicago schools, and we did really, really wonderful experience. our thing. And that’s when we And the students from that first started this idea of working within class, turned out later years to be the curriculum. Every other school did it as an extracurricular activity.

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like our chief engineer right now That was not live, right? So you had this pilot class? and part-time faculty. Because we That was not live; that was a taped. Yes. We had a pilot class that said, so—you know, you work on some- So I taught that one first, I taught sketch comedy, we already had an thing so hard for the first semester Music Alive, I taught the soap idea. So we took their model and and you’re kicking off and it’s opera, and now currently I’m teach- turned it into the curriculum. And successful, you’re bonded forever. ing the sketch comedy show. this is our second semester, and it’s And I think that’s what happens gone real well. It’s adult-themed here at the College, is that when So now with the sketch comedy, and it’s pushing the envelope like, something this exciting goes on, the most recent example, is the Saturday Night Live and Howard the students who are involved are first thing that comes to your Stern do, sort of. And the kids love bonded here forever. I mean, I’m mind, does someone bring an idea it. Again, there’s a class of writers, here; I was a student here. to you and do you think, how can and there’s a class that’s produc- we make this into a, bring this tion-producing, and then we audi- And I think that happened, and into the classroom. Are there tion in the Theater Department, that was a really exciting time things you projected because you because the Theater Department because we were charting totally just can’t figure out how to? with Sheldon is connected to Second new ground. Music Alive stayed on We go to the students for our City, and they do sketch comedy the air until 1977. One college inspiration. The soap opera came classes, so this is a perfect venue for survived the first year, Columbia. about because we were looking for students in their area who want an The rest of them did one show a a venue other than music. The opportunity that you perform in a semester and it fell off the map students were saying, those people sketch comedy show. because they couldn’t sustain the who love to do music, they’re production because it wasn’t in having a good time, but those of us And possibly be? their curriculum. The moment you who like are into drama or enter- Who knows? You never know. So tie it to extra curriculum—it works tainment, we’re not into music. we got together, there’s 3 of us great when you got this extra The sketch comedy came about— teaching as a team, and we wrote student, but the moment that when I was Chairman those 2 or 3 the curriculum, and we’re now student graduates, now what do years, I wanted to create a class that tweaking it. And the students are you do with it? Where ours was a was about writing television pilots, wonderful at the end of the semes- curricular issue; we had a directing and brainstorming and coming up ter; we always have at least a one- class that just directed music. We with a pilot idea, and then pitching hour session, especially with new used the remote production class to the pilot idea to the Department, classes. Okay, where did we go, shoot the remote. We had inde- these students, and seeing which what were our objectives, didn’t pendent studies working on the one would take off. meet them, and all the changes producing roles. And Music Alive we’ve ever made in terms of curric- was really the one that charted the And so Sara Livingston taught this ular structure for any of these—and new ground in terms of the class. And she said it just kept refo- these are complicated curricular curriculum for the soap opera cusing itself on sketch comedy, issues, when you’re talking about which followed and all the rest of sketch comedy. She said the kids four classes that are producing a these programs which followed. were really into the Saturday Night product. You’ve got to walk a very And I’m very proud to have been Live, the this, the that, they already fine line between—it’s real easy for the person that kicked off teaching had a drama, they had the this. the faculty and the students to the soap opera, teaching 600 South; They wanted to do a sitcom, but allow the product to dictate the I taught 600 South. the sitcoms were difficult. It almost process. And you can’t have that. repeated the conceptual structure of We are not in business to produce What was that? the soap opera. But the sketch product at the College. We’re in 600 South is the broadcast journal- comedy’s a totally different animal. business to teach the process. So ism, the news magazine show. So And so that idea came from the you open yourself up for a danger- I— students, and came to the ous problem where oh, this student Department. is on camera, but this product needs to be really good, so they’re not really good; let’s get them off camera and put—

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Someone else. I mean, sounds like it. So now I teach—I don’t want to And we don’t allow that. We said Unfortunately, the chairmanship— make it sound also, and it’s sure up front you know, everybody’s and I’m going to say this whether sounding this way, good grief, that going to get an opportunity to they like it or not—the chairman- I’m only teaching advance-level work on the parts they wish to. ship has evolved into a position classes when I work with these We’re not going to do musical that is so administrative. And I shows. I teach the entry-level chairs; we’re not going to force understand in this lightweight studio class, because I love working people to perform functions they administration that we have, in with the entry-level students. And don’t want, but everybody’s going terms of people—we’re very light in the entry-level class, we teach to get an opportunity to work on at the administrative end in terms concepts about analog signals and this, who’s enrolled in this class at of numbers of positions. So the digital signals, and a lot of that the same level, all the way across. chairmen sort of take on a great material is based on algebra. And I And the process is going to be deal of administrative work. I tell the students, “remember this in more important than the product. found it ironic that as chairman I your high school math, remember was less engaged with students and we talked about the XYX,” and The age-old sports question. Do the curriculum, forced by the load they go, “oh, my God.” And I’ll we play to win, or does everybody of administrative work that’s neces- say, “but look at how this is going that shows up plays? sary, but for me, it took me away to work.” And I draw this XYX, Our feeling is—but at the same from the whole reason I came here, and this whole thing about how time, you have to look and say, the whole thing that keeps my audio’s transferred to digital and okay, if this product is being seen flame lit. And so I did it— how video’s transferred to digital. by public, you have to be careful It’s a very mathematic way. So I’ve with the product that presents the And is that teaching? been able to come back and intro- College well. So there’s a fine line That’s teaching, and working with duce my mathematic skills. And of in teaching four groups of students students and curriculum. course time-code, you know, time- who are doing four different things, code is the code that’s on every And curriculum design. but yet they have to meld together frame of video. It became popular to make this product, is not easy. This is what I enjoy doing. And it took me out of that role, unfortu- during the O.J. thing. But we work Believe me. It takes hours and with that as editors constantly, hours of pre-work and then hours nately, so I opted—you know, I did my stint and I said, I’m going to because things are five seconds and hours of work during the longer, ten seconds, and you have semester. We meet as a group go to full-time faculty. So that’s what I’m doing. to subtract these numbers. Well, it constantly, and help consult with sounds easy, but the numbers— our—we have executive producers So what does teaching, you know, frames are in base 30, seconds are who are students, and they are the in 60. When you have to subtract executive producers of the show. television, and all that entails, give you that teaching math did 10 frames and 43 second from some They make the decisions. And we other number, you’re working in work with them on a consulting not? I love math. I really do, I’m a math different bases. There’s 30 frames in basis as teachers and say okay, this one second, there’s 60 seconds in an is an issue; how are you going to nut. But the only person in the classroom that was excited about hour. It becomes a mathematic solve this issue; what are you going difficulty. So I am able to actually to do? math was me. And so I didn’t have to be a cheerleader for myself; I take what I taught editing, teach So you turn it over to them? already knew I liked it. And the students how to subtract and add Yes. students had a hard time—you time code in a very easy fashion know, it just wasn’t that creative. It using some basic arithmetic skills. I’m just wondering; I’m curious is creative, but at the high school So I keep bringing math back. But as to why you didn’t take the level, they just don’t see it, it’s what I didn’t get from the math chairmanship, the permanent ritual and it’s going through the. chairmanship. Is it because you was student product. You know, like to teach so much? students doing exercises is okay, Yeah, it is. and when the light bulb goes on, it

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still charges me to see the students understood when I’ve explained something, but it’s not the same as students coming in and saying, this is my work about my retarded brother and his life and her home, and this is my documentary. You’re crying all over the place. It’s a different skill. And I’ve got the best of both worlds. I’m able to teach and able to do professional television work. You know, I still—as I said, I’m part of the Board and the Academy, so I still keep my professional involvement but yet I’m able to teach. Because for a while I had my own company and we did the Olympic training tapes for 1984 and 1988, very lucrative, and I could have left and gone on and done that, but I missed the teach- ing part of it, and I knew that I couldn’t go back.

Just Olympic training tapes for people covering the Olympics? No, no, no. We did the training tapes for the rhythmic gymnastics for all over the country.

Really? For the basic routines. We won, my partner and I won the bid nationally.

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