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INDEX with Alice De Santillana (AUTONOMA) and Marcantonio Brandolini D’Adda (LagunaB) with Alice De Santillana (AUTONOMA) and new challenges Slow navigation. Gondolas, sails, oars, with Giancarlo Ghigi and Laura Mascino Alberto of the world. Postcards, comics, games and curiosities from All the Venices Toso Fei’s collection with Luigi Divari and Matteo Stocco (Metagoon) with Luigi Divari and Matteo Stocco (Metagoon) innovation Murano and glass, between history and & Figli) and Silvio Testa with Elena Tramontin (Squero D. Tramontin Re-inhabiting the water and land with Michele Savorgnano and Lorenzo Basadonna Scarpa (Ortofoto) with Michele Savorgnano and Lorenzo The evolution of fishing in the lagoon with Sabina Rizzardi (Libreria MarcoPolo) and Shaul Bassi (Università Ca’ Foscari) with Sabina Rizzardi (Libreria MarcoPolo) Cultivate the City with Luigi Cavaleri (CNR-ISMAR) and Fabiana Corami (CNR-ISP) with Luigi Cavaleri Books on Water and Environmental Humanities with Nicola Di Croce and Mariateresa Sartori with Nicola Di Croce Macro-tides and micro-plastics with Tiziano Scarpa “Supervenice” The Architectures of with Sara Marini Sounds and Sights Narrating Venice 9. 11. 8. 10. 7. 6. 5. 4. 2. 3. 1. NOWTILUS EPISODE 1 3 iTunes and Google Podcasts. our series of episodes by asking a writer, and a our series of episodes by asking a writer, and a Venice, how to narrate writer actually from Venice, its uniqueness and its overlap with the commonplace. And who better than a narrator to give us this insight? So let’s turn the question over to Tiziano Scarpa: how Scarpa begin How did Tiziano do we narrate Venice? to talk about, if he can remember, his city? TS: I actually started to write about it immediately, because since writing my first book, I’ve based my sulla My first book was “Occhi stories in Venice. graticola” (“Eyes on the grill”). There’s a scene that left a lasting impression on those who’ve read it, because there’s an incident involving an embarrassing ‘intestinal’ moment on a vaporetto, which makes the person suffering from the problem think it preferable to throw themself into the water than to endure such an embarrassing debacle (‘laughing’). This situation provides a narrative opportunity: if this embarrassment Spotify,

SoundCloud,

Here we are. Nowtilus gathers and explores a EB: Here we are. Nowtilus gathers and explores a and the broad range of narratives, centred on Venice lagoon. For this reason we thought about beginning Tiziano Scarpa (TS): Thank you, I’m here. You are listening to “Nowtilus. Enrico Bettinello (EB): You are listening to “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century”, a Bettinello Enrico podcast by Ocean Space, Venice. is here to welcome you aboard Nowtilus. Stories, thoughts, notes, and issues concerning the rethinking the series, today. In this episode, opening of Venice we will be discussing how to talk about Venice, and we talk about themselves, how the Venetians will be doing this with Tiziano Scarpa, writer, poet, so let’s also And playwright, but above all, Venetian. welcome him aboard, welcome Tiziano Scarpa. TBA21—Academy Radio

Available from 24th April 2020, 4pm , TBA21-Academy Radio on Ocean Archive VENICE with writer Tiziano Scarpa NARRATING Episode 1 OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 1 4 assuage, to keep the little caricatures in check? By not not By in check? caricatures the little to keep assuage, I systematically Therefore, terms. Venetian mentioning “calle”, never “calle”, the Venetian not told myself: or “campo” Venetian alleyway. Never the but street, Never gondola! but square or courtyard. “campiello”, that Boat! Except NEVER, gondola! NEVER, NEVER, of various shapes, as we know are boats Venetian never But let’s just say, and nomenclatures… purposes never! It’s forbidden. Forbidden! the word “gondola,” I was able to focus on going in for By doing this I think Do you know what the a close-up of my characters. close-up, created by the problem is? It’s a paradoxical on top of the background. background: a background that (‘laughing’) like a Let’s imagine a background behind and swallows itself, like blob, swells up from backstage (‘laughs’)… an enormous inflatable that swallows EB: An inflatable background this? Did you do everything! But how did you go about did you force it when you were revising, editing, or of exercise? yourself from the beginning as a type necessary. TS: No, no, I didn’t just force myself, it was Because my I mean I fully embraced this exercise… it’s not medium, language, is not merely ornamental, Entering into tinsel, a layer of varnish that I apply later. material, has this way of seeing, into this linguistic on characters given me above all the power to focus aspects from and not leave me to absorb, to install somewhat this cumbersome, or inflatable as I said for me there ironically, backdrop. And I must say that was a sense of ‘nemesis’ in doing this… EB: Oh really? Tell us about this nemesis. paid. So, I TS: By nemesis I mean… a little toll that I that place over have to tell you the truth. I was born in there, l’Ospedale della Pietà. I was born in the place where orphan girls were abandoned at birth, or whose parents were poor, or for many other reasons. They learned to play music there, and in those places - not only at l’Ospedale della Pietà - they had exceptional music teachers! The venerated Vivaldi even taught and composed for them. So I felt OK, not greedy, not someone who exploits the city to write books and get published. I was born, I was given birth to, in that place, which was in fact the maternity ward of the civil hospital, and the story of those rooms, that building that brought me into this world fascinated me. Great. I feel innocent, pure of heart. I wrote a story that belongs to me… EB: There’s no malice. I don’t TS: Right, and what do I see? I remove Venice, name it, I don’t name the streets. And what happens when the story gets translated abroad? On the book covers: Canaletto, Francesco Guardi, graphic designs of Ca’ d’Oro. The Ca’ d’Oro, my God, THE CA’ D’ORO! I mean, the definition of lacework, of decorative marble, of white stone, of postcards! A little anecdote So, you know, I can’t avoid it. How did I manage to TS: So, you know, I can’t avoid it. How did I manage to (Laughs) Of course… EB: (Laughs) Of course… Exactly, yes. I have to say that I’ve done it. TS: Exactly, yes. I have to say that I’ve done it. I’ve done it. Earlier I was talking about the trio of caricatures that jump out: Vivaldi! The four seasons! Goldoni! Casanova! (‘with emphasis’) So, anyway, I wrote a book about Vivaldi, well actually, a book with Vivaldi in it… Venetian words! EB: Venetian Yes, Venice truly is a sort of seventeenth-century truly is a sort of seventeenth-century TS: Yes, Venice the caricatures of matron. As soon as you say “Venice” immediately Goldoni, Vivaldi, and above all Casanova of this lady, pop up. How do you usher the wide hips out of who always wants to occupy the foreground, I have the scene? I learned something very useful, it pains me to tell you the truth, to be honest, and not to say this because it was actually a foreigner, or even an Italian that taught me this… I a Venetian McEwan, who in owe a lot to the literary lesson of Ian the city without “The Comfort of Strangers” described a very murky one naming it. He managed to tell a story, with an at that, because there’s a certain fascination Anyway, I older couple preying upon younger people. won’t tell you how it ends, but those who have read it will remember it very well. A grim story… Well, in this very, very contemporary story, absolutely twentieth- century - in that it was written in the second half of you see it, but is there, the twentieth century - Venice it’s not the protagonist. It really is the backdrop. Why? Because Ian McEwan had the intelligence, the genius, to not name it and to leave the technical terminology By calling in the background. that relates to Venice it technical terminology, I used a rather grand term: simply the phraseology (‘laughing’)… What kinds of difficulties, strategies and strategies and EB: What kinds of difficulties, Scarpa overcome in later years, techniques did Tiziano works in other important and justifiably celebrated are set in – “Stabat Mater” comes to mind - which How did Tiziano Scarpa manage to fight one Venice. on one with this city? had taken place on a bus, or on another form of urban of urban form or on another on a bus, place had taken have there couldn’t city, in any other transport public this particularly as in image such a striking been in order to save scene, where someone, evocative into a body of water. throw themself face, would a young woman, too. case it was In this particular it’s true that the that in some cases So, let’s say in matters that of the city intervene peculiarities wouldn’t have the same impact. elsewhere perhaps it’s also worth noting that I had But on the other hand, I threw fighting with Venice, a very, very hard time it out, to not be overwhelmed punches to try to blot the impression that I was to avoid giving by Venice, about her, to succeed in telling speaking exclusively being set in Venice. my stores, despite OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 1 5 escape these conventions, conventions that we too we too that conventions conventions, these escape with us, catch up sometimes which escape but try to to jump seeming film, of Hollywood like a sort almost corner to besiege us? from around every out at us engineers and without doubt, TS: I would say, start people. I’ll you could say technical architects, commas, Franco “technician”, in inverted with a pure is a city’) è una città” (‘Venice Mancuso. “Venezia you interested in Venice, is a book that, for anyone a way of really entering into really must read. It’s it was constructed, the way it the city, from the way urban rationale. And then there’s was formed, to its who has told the city’s an excellent writer-engineer to delve into both visionary story, who knew how intertwining this with and narrative inventiveness, and construction, the knowledge of engineering with which it was built. I’m materials and techniques a writer talking about Paolo Barbaro. Paolo Barbaro, many years who passed away a few years ago, not ranging ago, but who left us with important books and stories, from character and narrative, to novels into Venice, to essays. In his essays, his deep-dives he describes but also through little glimpses when you get the events that unfold around his characters, the city, but a sense of not only the visible layers of which the you also almost feel the mud below, into You feel wooden piles were driven, the foundations. someone who that there’s a rootedness in the writing, of, the stones, knows about what the bricks are made above the architraves, the things that are everywhere, we really and below the characters. Paolo Barbaro, forget Paolo shouldn’t forget about him. We must not Barbaro. value, but EB: They are undoubtedly authors of great around the perhaps not among the most well-known world. So in the end what kind of image of Venice is created by books, the image that then circulates around? Italians, but we TS: Many people write about Venice, sometimes when we talk about authors that write has written - recently Amitav Ghosh about Venice the finale of for example - it’s as if… about Venice, “The Information” by Martin Amis springs to mind, where - well, I’ll reveal it, if you haven’t read it, it’s a beautiful novel - where the protagonist discovers that his wife has been having an affair with his best friend for years. Martin Amis makes a brilliant comparison: “He felt like Tasman when he discovered Tasmania, without realising that just over there was Australia, often enormous Australia!” We Italians, we Venetians, or even talk about the literature relating to Venice, on “Australia”, while turning our backs about Venice, by that I don’t mean an Australian writer, but the huge narrative continent also known as Donna Leon. EB: Donna Leon, of course! TS: Donna Leon is the writer behind Commissario So, Tiziano Scarpa, many writers, maybe too EB: So, Tiziano Scarpa, many writers, maybe too many, have grappled with writing about Venice. Which writers, in your opinion, have cultivated a way some way to that manages in of writing about Venice Musical interlude: Christian Fennesz, “Laguna” (track Musical interlude: Christian Fennesz, “Laguna” (track 2004) from the album “Venice”, Editors claim that in order to sell a book it’s in order to sell a book it’s TS: Editors claim that it sells, that customary, if you want to be sure that on or “Venice” you have to put either the word “cat” someone the cover. That way you’ll be sure that marketing, will pick it up. Here we’re talking about On the encounter with the end user, the recipients. needs to be a germinative level, this is where one peace with careful. Not only to be, if I may say, in can claim to one’s own conscience, because who because they be inspired purely to do something just in front of the want fortune, success? Who, standing in fact for me it mirror, can say that? I don’t know. But peace with it in really is a problem, and I’ve only made any other city, the last few years. I pretend that it’s like last three, four even though I know that it’s not. In the and I have novels, I describe a contemporary Venice, it is like that! to pretend that it’s really like that. But a character The problem is if, for example, I describe they have to go who is feeling really worried because the vaporetto, to the tax office, and so they run, take get off the vaporetto, hurry across three bridges, then as they arrive, the office closes and so they will end up getting a fine, and… (‘reaching a crescendo’)! But you’re always afraid that when someone reads something like that, they’ll respond: “Ah, to take the vaporetto… Gustav von Aschenbach! Death in Venice! How beautiful! To run down the steps of the bridges, how “beauuutiful” (‘with a dreamy and ironic tone’)!” And then you say: really? I wrote this whole narrative paroxysm to create a scene that really hits you, and you, I don’t know… It’s like arriving somewhere all weary and dishevelled and someone, instead of asking what’s happened to you, looks at you, mesmerised by the brand of your tie and says to you: “What a marvellous tie!” And you say to them: “Can’t you see that I’m not feeling well, listen to me!” Can we say then, that Venice, and the act of and the act of Venice, EB: Can we say then, that sometimes almost has a life of writing about Venice, its territory involuntarily? its own? It reclaims They couldn’t do it! It’s like there’s a compulsion to It’s like there’s a compulsion to TS: They couldn’t do it! book! They re-venetianised it! “re-venetianise” my EB: It’s inescapable! for you. A brilliant, brilliant translator - I won’t say in say in - I won’t translator brilliant A brilliant, for you. who will know if I do they because language, which it would because not OK, and that’s about, I’m talking upon a translator, who of me - well be very ungrateful decided that in their get in the boat,” reading “Let’s in the this as: “Let’s get they would translate language gondola.” OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 1 6 it’s a shell, it’s there to defend the hermit crab, the the hermit crab, defend the there to shell, it’s it’s a but abandoned, been inside, they’ve that lives snail is very life here quality of that the they know really off, maybe to so, maybe to put people high. And know very well The Venetians protect themselves… to have access from Milan doesn’t that someone the squares all over marvellous little such beautiful, a an aperitivo, for just you can go for place, where I add! Other Italian cities have couple of euros might if not for their wonderful nothing quite so marvellous, are usually right in the centre, main squares, which very cool, very glamorous, where it’s very expensive, by a certain type of people… This perhaps colonised to only seen it in the Venetians, phenomena, I’ve not a legitimate protectionism… I’ve tell the truth, such case… Almost every summer, done it too, a classic reaches out to me, and a magazine or a newspaper piece, something that they they ask me for a colourful ask me: “Listen think might be rather helpful, and they piece about Scarpa, would you be up for writing a the Venetians some of your favourite places, where guys go…” And I go, not the touristy places, where you know, this time make my excuses: “Unfortunately, you I’ll tell YOU? of the year…” But do you really think that go? (‘laughing’) You think I’m Where we Venetians I also have stupid? For just a few euros for the article, spots that to contribute to the ruin of those few little are still untainted? EB: Our last hope... - actually, TS: I’ve found people who understood me - I’ve actually not just that, I’ll tell you what they did I had also found this to be the case with foreigners. because he has the honour of meeting a dean, I think, level… an executive role, working at a very senior a Professor Rudolf Behrens, a great philosopher, polyglot… I’ve never felt so abashed and embarrassed, at the time I had only written a couple of books, he è had actually read the previous version of “Venezia a children’s is a fish”), which was un pesce” (“Venice Scarpa” con Tiziano edition called “In gita a Venezia he’d even with Tiziano Scarpa”), (“A Trip to Venice read that! He made a big show of it, we were in a sort of university canteen with other teachers, researchers from Bochum, and he said that he was very fond of the city, and that he went there on holiday every summer. I welcomed this, and then he said to me, “But you know where I go with my family?” in perfect Italian. “Tell me professor…” “I go to Pellestrina.” “Ah how wonderful!” I say, “What a connoisseur, a man of good taste in travel!” We talk about Pellestrina 20 years ago, when it was more than just a little wild, and before it was well-known, it’s full of people from Padova these days… And then he says to me, “You write Professor, “Well yes, as you know about Venice.” I’m unworthy, but you’ve read my books…” “But you don’t talk about Pellestrina…” And I feel almost guilty, when he then says, “Well yes, I have to admit, it’s still something I haven’t done either…” He moves closer to me from across the canteen table, he looks around I think they employ somewhat protectionist TS: I think they employ somewhat protectionist techniques, there’s an esotericism and an when Not “exotericism” in talking about Venice. mediated through fiction, TV series, novels, but when speaking directly, I mean without the filters of fiction or characters, but when one says: “I think that, I find that, my life is like…” There’s a sort of protectionism because people tend to complain a little, and I think they’re right to do so because there are some real reasons to complain. The depopulation, the cost of living, the housing, the cost of rent, the inconvenience, the services, the emptying of the city, I won’t keep going on… but the list of complaints, what can I say? It makes this whining plausible, but it functions as a kind of shell - not that these things aren’t true - but So, Tiziano Scarpa, up to this point we have EB: So, Tiziano Scarpa, up to this point we have But explored how to write and talk about Venice. Because talk about it themselves? how do Venetians this is an interesting topic: the means, the words, the lexicon used by a community of people that live in a particular place, magical as it may be. Good, bad? What techniques do they use? Brunetti. When I go abroad, all around Europe, the the Europe, all around I go abroad, When Brunetti. they I mean, first asked… that I’m question second I’ve read say: “Oh me, they to themselves introduce a owner, librarian, if it’s a bookshop your books!” of the me, or the organiser that’s introducing professor “You that they ask me is second question event. The like Donna Leon! Do you like about Venice, write books that because given And I’m shocked, Donna Leon?” have this grave shortcoming of not it’s not my genre, I her work. As we know, she doesn’t having read any of translated into Italian because like to have her work Brunetti often relate to the inquests of Commissario sometimes characters from certain local scandals, and But the amazing thing for places are recognisable. like when we Italians go to Sicily, me, for example, is Modica, Ragusa or elsewhere, we say to Val di Noto, with photos of Commissario find plaques for tourists summary, a synopsis of a scene Montalbano, and a Montalbano of a particular episode of Commissario marking di Camilleri, in the version with Zingaretti, the TV series. where various episodes were filmed for famous Well, the Germans, who had a celebrated, Brunetti and much-loved TV series about Commissario Barbarigo in German, go to the terrace of Palazzo of della Terrazza to take photos of the “Dachterasse” wonderful thing Brunetti, “Brunetti’s Dachterasse”. The please do this! about this - and I implore you to do this, on Google Maps, and right - search “Brunetti Venezia” pops up the Dachterasse; there on the map of Venice where it’s the rooftop, not exactly a real terrace, it’s a site Brunetti lives in the German series, because They go that is photographed so often (‘laughing’)... to take photos to the palace on the Grand Canal, not door of the of the facades, but to take photos next So, what Dachterasse, the rooftop terrace of Brunetti. of gets out am I saying? That the image of Venice hand, perhaps as it should do too… OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 1 7 the Venetians know about, following of course the the of course following about, know the Venetians get out you try to Behrens, Professor of suggestion things one of the But the invitation. decline of it and at Nowtilus is - very our guests here that we ask revealing any big secrets perhaps without briefly and our to their heart with a place that’s close - to share situation that for a location, a Venetian listeners, you heart. What would is close to his Tiziano Scarpa, with us? be willing to share church of the Pietà, Santa TS: Without a doubt, the know, it’s not some little place, a Maria della Pietà. I corner, but in reality it hidden gem, an undiscovered the Riva degli Schiavoni, is… San Marco is packed, pandemic, was overflowing, but all at least before the the church of Vivaldi - or rather you have to do is enter door to the church of Vivaldi, the one that was next of the 18th Century it was because in the middle we have about rebuilt, but anyway, the evidence that up, being given that place, about the orphans growing music, to a helping hand, and who learned to play the history of sing, in order to collect donations - well, goes inside. music changed in that place, and no one of the ‘Ancien And it’s also evidence for the welfare resolved Régime’, to put it one way: how our ancestors fresco by social problems. There’s also a magnificent rather rare in Giambattista Tiepolo, and frescoes are because they weren’t often made here due to Venice a place that the humidity. Anyway to sum it up, it’s Because it really incredibly few people visit. So go, go! political, is from every perspective, musical, historical, artistic, a special place, and barely frequented, Marco. despite being a just few steps from San goodbye, EB: Well, thank you to Tiziano Scarpa and even in the we hope to see you again soon, perhaps flesh! A warm farewell to Tiziano Scarpa. TS: Thank you! EB: Thank you to Christian Fennesz for the music fading in and that you heard from the album “Venice” out alongside our words throughout this programme. You’ve been listening to “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century”. A podcast curated by Enrico Bettinello and Alice Ongaro Sartori, in collaboration with Graziano Meneghin for post- production. You can listen to this episode and future episodes of Nowtilus on ocean-archive.org or follow us on Soundcloud. A warm farewell from Enrico Bettinello, see you in the next episode. Thank you so much. Just now when you told EB: Thank you so much. Just now when you told us about how newspapers sometimes ask you for recommendations about the special places that only I can tell you straight away that the answer lies TS: I can tell you straight away that the answer lies to some extent in the question. I mean, the natural issues, they need to be kept them in mind, the lagoon environment, because as my friend Roberto Ferrucci I would also is the lagoon.” But has written, “Venice capital could be the Unesco worldwide say that Venice of culture… Other aspects of the lexicon… It should be lived more than it is visited; it’s always been evidence for a kind of utopia, that it’s possible to live in a different way. It’s also a reminder of things to forget about or to erase: the industry of foreigners. One hundred years ago, at the outbreak of the First World off tourists, it realised that it lived War when Venice understood that it was an industry of foreigners. That’s what they called it, like a factory, that with the “clunk, clunk, clunk” of the machines on a conveyor belt, manufactured tourists. There you have it, we not only have to introduce new words, but scrutinise the old words too. Tiziano Scarpa, we are slowly, but inevitably EB: Tiziano Scarpa, we are slowly, but inevitably have a couple coming to the end of our chat, but I still What are, in of things that I would like to ask you. the Venetians your opinion, having spoken about how narration are talk about themselves, what forms of in a sustainable possible for a city reconsidering itself, issues, the way, taking into consideration natural the state of relationship with the lagoon environment, I know change that we are currently living through? I should say that this is a difficult question, or maybe you, if you’re an impossible one. But I’d like to ask vocabulary, for willing, to give us some idea, a basic the changes that we are facing. Musical interlude: Christian Fennesz, “Rivers of Sand” “Rivers of Sand” Musical interlude: Christian Fennesz, 2004) (track from the album “Venice”, Even if Pellestrina deserves to be recognised, it’s it’s TS: Even if Pellestrina deserves to be recognised, an example of this sort of defensive reticence. EB: Of course… Rudolf Behrens has become my Super-ego for become my Super-ego for TS: Rudolf Behrens has I’ve had the slightest urge Pellestrina! Every time in an article, in anything, I see to name Pellestrina looking at me, saying, “Never tell Professor Behrens emphasis’) Except it’s a bit of a anyone about it!” (‘with lost cause now. (‘Laughing’) Well, I must say that’s quite that’s quite Well, I must say EB: (‘Laughing’) coming from someone hearing such advice remarkable has experiences, who Behrens, who like Professor intense way. in such an Venice experienced and sighs, firmly locking his eyes with mine, and says, and says, with mine, his eyes locking firmly and sighs, the chanting it.” (‘Slowly about tell anyone “Never tone’.) in a menacing words NOWTILUS EPISODE 2 8 iTunes and Google Podcasts. Magazine”) from the Department of Architectural Magazine”) from the Department of Architectural itself. Sara Marini is the director of this Design at IUAV came out in The first edition magazine, of “Vesper”. autumn of 2019 and has a title that immediately caught our attention, because it was entitled “Supervenice”, and so I’d like to begin our chat by asking her to tell us about the rationale behind these two fascinating “Supervenice” for the magazine, and names, “Vesper” for this issue in particular. in two is a half-yearly magazine, SM: Well, “Vesper” languages, the texts are in Italian and in English, and its aim is to deal with the different cultures of architectural design, seeking to renew the nexus between theory and practice, between text and object, an indelible nexus in the context of Venice. The name refers to the fact that our eyes are drawn to the dusk: when light and dark mix, and the source to read attempts of light is no longer visible. “Vesper” Spotify, SoundCloud,

Sara Marini has dedicated many books and EB: Sara Marini has dedicated many books and the most many editorial projects to the city of Venice, Rivista di Architectura, recent of which is “Vesper. and Theory Architecture, Arts Arti e Teoria” (“Vesper. Sara Marini (SM): Thank you, thanks Enrico. You are listening to “Nowtilus. Enrico Bettinello (EB): You are listening to “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century”, a Bettinello Enrico podcast by Ocean Space, Venice. is here to welcome you aboard the Nowtilus. Stories, thoughts, notes, and issues concerning the rethinking we will explore today. In our second episode of Venice some stories, some themes linked to the architecture with Sara and we’ll be doing this together of Venice, University of Marini, architect and lecturer at the IUAV aboard. So let’s welcome Sara Marini Venice. TBA21—Academy Radio

Available from 8th May 2020, 4pm , TBA21-Academy Radio on Ocean Archive OF “SUPERVENICE” with Sara Marini THE ARCHITECTURE THE ARCHITECTURE Episode 2 OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 2 9 movements are required: that is to immerse oneself oneself immerse that is to required: are movements same it with the from oneself to distance in it and trapped, of being a risk there’s otherwise intensity, The contradictions the city’s image. crushed inside that with perspective even this difficulty that it hides, are at Venice, experience when looking you often of chose for the cover the image that we echoed in Linke a photo by Armin In this case it’s “Supervenice”. magazine will feature photos - each edition of the on the cover - which is taken by noted photographers of its own, it reiterates what in itself almost an essay engages with the the theme is yet simultaneously theme of the magazine. those who can’t see it, for EB: Let’s describe it for course we hope that you will our listeners, but of beautiful image, taken by Armin see it. This is a very the setting - and I don’t even Linke. If you don’t know would know the setting where think many Venetians head of a this photo was taken - you can see the room, which gentleman, a workman, inside a control what is it? could be on a ship, or could instead be… a control SM: It’s the portrait of a technician inside virtual room, and inside this room he’s taking super-dam measurements of the tides and of the we’re talking currently under construction, obviously are about the MOSE project, and these simulations again, there projected onto a gigantic screen, so once And are lots of superlatives involved (‘laughing’). the name, then, again sticking with the point about we wanted to the title that we gave this first edition, is a “super-designed” city; by that reiterate that Venice to remain the I mean its appearance always seems repeated the same, its form, its ostensibly continually so composition, in order to be so well-preserved, years, in repeated, so persistent throughout the reality it requires a huge number of projects, a huge amount of design culture, a huge number of technical inventions. So this is a city that’s full of design, and which continually looks to design for new ideas. EB: And this is something that people often don’t realise, right? It appears a bit like an object frozen in time, partly because of its historical characteristics, but also because there’s often this idea that it’s a kind of motionless entity. However, this continual process of redesigning to remain the same, but also to change, what does this look like? SM: Well, for example, this edition contains an essay about the restoration of Palazzo Grimani, a restoration that took 25 years. It also contains the plans of the designer, Mario Piana, who oversaw this restoration, and from the plans it’s clear just how many technical innovations were required to get the palace into the state that we can see it in today, after many years of being abandoned, slipping into a very bad condition. a large is not just It has to be said that Venice sandbox for design, it’s not always read positively in this “Supervenice” edition, in fact in Nicola Emeri’s Of course. In order to write about Venice and and SM: Of course. In order to write about Venice antithetical two dramatic and to talk about Venice, Sorry if I’m interrupting you, but we were also EB: Sorry if I’m interrupting you, but we were also talking about this in the last episode of Nowtilus, with Tiziano Scarpa, precisely about this narrative difficulty, almost a difficulty in its very being, in understanding this object that can actually get quite out of control. Don’t you think? Of course. Again, sort of like “Vesper”, there are there are SM: Of course. Again, sort of like “Vesper”, a multifaceted multiple meanings. We tried to create which is term that could clearly evoke the city, launch the the focus of this account. We couldn’t which is a magazine without talking about Venice, continually great palimpsest of design, culture, which “Supervenice” renews the trajectory of architecture. together both gold and mud merge because in Venice and give form to a multifaceted document. Clearly that it’s is a difficult document, in the sense Venice extremely well-known, its identity is almost taken for granted, so taken for granted as to be synthesised and even replicated in other contexts around the world. and the in particular, the minute However, in Venice immeasurable meet, the powerful and the fragile share the stage. Essentially, it’s imperative to know Venice from within, but to write about it you have to place yourself outside, to place yourself above this context, to rise above it, because otherwise it’s impossible to see the contradictions that the city hides from such a close proximity. Well, let’s talk a little about this word “super” “super” EB: Well, let’s talk a little about this word contexts a little which evokes both superheroes, and closer to the latin root of the word. the design process by following and highlighting the the highlighting and by following process the design identified Pythagoras transformation. of momentum stars, the evening and the morning as both the Venus word places. The body in two different same celestial which like turn Venice, and in Venus, “vesper” evokes doesn’t attempt from the water. “Vesper” rises Venus, “a brighter completely new horizons, to promise light a glimpse - in the but seeks to catch tomorrow,” that are hidden within of twilight - of the possibilities It should be pointed out that what already exists. that is to say it strives is ‘paper architecture’, “Vesper” in miniature with every to be like a small building layers that welcome different edition: with multiple and renewing the tradition of narratives, reclaiming welcoming varied forms of Italian paper magazines, styles. The magazine is thought writing and different or themed editions, as a of, through the succession Within the space of discourse on contemporaneity. shed different each edition, a collection of headings the archive, lights on the theme. Headings such as In essence, travel, story, design obviously, essays… the objective is to provide tools and materials edition of the from the city’s long shadow. The first is dedicated to magazine, which was edited in 2019, “Supervenice”. OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 2 10 only to write to us complaining about the surprise they they the surprise about us complaining to write to only is just This its contents. discovered they had when with we can work ways some of the of an example also with book culture, its dynamics, and with Venice, this city. very deep roots in which has (sound “Sea Change” - Teho Teardo, Musical interlude 2017) installation, 2nd Document” “Venice. EB: In the final pages of photos of the church of there are some beautiful is the home of Ocean Space. San Lorenzo, which photos, taken by Sissi They’re really fascinating which were taken before the Cesira Roselli, and so you can see the floor still start of its restoration, state. Looking at them makes me in its pre-restored revitalisation, of the recycling of think of the theme of theme to which Sara Marini has the city’s spaces, a “Architettura dedicated particular attention in the book città” (“Parasite parassita. Strategie di riciclaggio della city”), which architecture. Recycling strategies of the recent as the came out a few years ago, not quite as about, but I magazine and the book that we’ve talked of some would say it’s still very current as a reading experiences, starting here with the church Venetian Sara Marini, in of San Lorenzo. So I’d like to ask you, examples of your opinion, what are some interesting renewing and this parasite concept, in this sense of recycling. is clearly a capital city for reused SM: Well, Venice centres. But spaces, a bit like all our old historical is an even more extreme example, because Venice forced to be in having a limited footprint, the city is we can reborn continually within itself. For example, which was talk about the obvious case of the Fenice, There are redesigned in the nineties by Aldo Rossi. a huge number of examples, I’d like to mention some that I experienced daily until only a few years ago, one University in Venice: like the premises of the IUAV of these buildings, which we use for the Architecture degree programme, is an old cotton mill, and was reconceptualised as a university premises by a designer and teacher at the school. All of our schools were either noble palaces, or old warehouses, or parts of very extensive religious buildings, so the theme of reuse is the norm in this city. From this point of view for example, over the last few years I’ve dealt with the is perhaps which reuse of closed churches in Venice, a more specific case, less well-known and maybe also less obvious, again we’re back to talking about things that are hidden and things that are evident… EB: How many closed churches are there in Venice, roughly? SM: We’ve counted thirty, but we use the term “closed” in inverted commas, meaning that “the doors are mostly closed,” so it’s not necessarily a permanent state, but for the most part these sites are inaccessible. Obviously the theme of reusing In this little book we deal with a kind of of SM: In this little book we deal with a kind between”, middleground, an “inbetween”, a “being is to say that and Venice, what lies between Venezia the city and between the reality and the logo, between two realities its brand. Obviously in between these distinguished that share the same name, though here ways of by two different languages - different to different seeing the same space often correspond conflict, and languages - we try to find some sort of realm of the above all the things that belong to the two cities imagination: in other words, where the where they meet, where they’re confused, but also also stress manage to meaningfully overlap. I would from the 2nd Document” represents what “Venice. point of view of it being an object itself, because as that can we aimed to design an object with “Vesper”, actually be held in the hands of the people who read it. This little volume acts as a sort of souvenir, so certain aspects are designed to appeal directly to a specific audience or specific readers in particular, and it comes packaged in a transparent sleeve. Through this sleeve it’s possible to read the various titles of the chapters which are embossed on the cover, where Novissime, like: you can see words relating to Venice Serenissima, Libertà, Fondaci, Spessori, Nostalghia, Scirocco. These terms immediately provoke quite specific associations, so the viewer might be able to imagine what the book contains. In reality these words are all references to design projects, rather than recent locations in which recent transformations of the city have taken place, or titles of films… Well the book actually contains a series of critical essays on the theory of architecture. But the fact that the object presents itself as a typical souvenir, appealing to average tourists, means that people have actually bought it, maybe in some bookshop here in Venice, and upon returning home have finally opened the book, This relationship between the image of a Venice the image of a Venice EB: This relationship between continually duplicated that is continually replicated, and time again, and the Venice and reproduced time experience, the city and the lagoon, that its inhabitants dualistic, almost antithetical. But seems to be sort of live side by side, and if so, do these souls actually ways of imagining this too? For how? Are there other comes to mind, another book example, another work with Alberto Bertagna, called that you wrote together 2nd Document”, which is a lovely little book “Venice. manageable. on this subject, because it’s concise and work, other In the essays, in the very concept of this two polarities paths are identified for navigating these of the concept of Venice. essay, he talks about when Benjamin visited the city the city visited Benjamin about when he talks essay, be completely found it to and he young man, as a talking So we’re like it. really didn’t he unbearable, same that relate to the of perspectives about a range that don’t all point don’t always agree, subject, but the all seek to explore direction, but that in the same the that go beyond aspects of the city, most hidden assumptions. most obvious OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 2 11 I remember, Cacciari, Vedova, right? Vedova, Cacciari, EB: I remember, which in hypertext, an authorial SM: Exactly, artist were of each individual the contributions in a brought together very evident, all nonetheless within the church. was temporarily hosted space that (2017) “Sea Change” - Teho Teardo, Musical interlude as “a city defined Venice EB: Sara Marini, Le Corbusier agree with this definition? of the future.” Do you I would say the future is SM: Yes absolutely, though is definitely a paradigm Venice now. By that I mean and for the direction that the for contemporaneity going in. We are in the presence future seems to be pedestrianised, dependent of a city that is completely without any ambiguity, on its in a very direct sense, it down; it’s own environment, which at times weighs ways it’s a strongly international place, but in other intense, but if still just a village. Social life here is very lagoon. Again, needed, it’s possible to escape to the and the private the architectural value of public space I mean they space of the home is very clear, by that way, while in condition people’s lives in an obvious the differences other places it’s easy to pretend that are negligible. can we EB: With that in mind, in your opinion, how as a living city, bearing consider or reconsider Venice architecture, in mind the very interesting ideas about shared with but also design in general, that you have us so far in this episode? very SM: From a design perspective I think that, It is Venice. simply put, we must continue to reutilise urban scale, already happening through work on an and with projects concerning smaller spaces, the significant work being done at the Arsenale for the Biennale comes to mind for example. I also think that this culture of temporary architecture should be continually renewed, it has always highlighted the city’s architectural history, both within its buildings, as we saw with Renzo Piano’s Ark, and in the use of its waters; this is a city in which a temporary bridge is constructed every year, built and dismantled just as rapidly, but which changes the way we interact with the city itself. Another area of interest is definitely the lagoon, the lungs of the city, something that has always been a subject of much discussion. We could always do more for this area of concern, perhaps by creating interdisciplinary working groups with different skill sets, which would be able to better navigate this difficult territory, a territory that relates to the future and the destiny of the city. Aside from the spaces, from the territories, there are also the people. As for the people, I think it’s ever more important to listen to a question that over the years, ever since I’ve lived in this city - for more than twenty years - I’ve always heard being asked. There are people who visit this city who would like to stay here, to live and work here. Yes, and that gives weight to the fact that this that this SM: Yes, and that gives weight to the fact specific area, phenomenon doesn’t concern just one but is in fact spread throughout the city. I have to say that of the three, the visit to San Lorenzo left a particularly strong impression on the students, precisely because the visits took place just before the restoration work within the church began, and so there were these two chasms in the floor, left behind by a series of archaeological excavations that were interrupted during the eighties, so this allowed the students to see what was hidden beneath the floor of a often water building. Furthermore, there was Venetian clearly visible in these pits. The church also allowed us to revisit an old design from the nineteen eighties: a temporary project by Renzo Piano, the so-called Ark, which had been conceived and designed for the performance of the musical opera “Prometeo. Tragedia dell’ascolto” (“Prometheus. The tragedy of hearing”) by Luigi Nono. This was a particularly interesting case of architecture temporarily inhabiting the emptiness of the church, giving a space to the performance of a multidirectional musical opera, “like the sound that I’m quoting the obviously now echoes within Venice,” words of Luigi Nono… Moreover, it was something of a collective effort - Renzo Piano responsible for the architecture, Luigi Nono the musical opera… Among other things, you refer to three churches churches EB: Among other things, you refer to three Sant’Anna that are located in three different areas, the is in Castello towards the end of Via Garibaldi, of the church of San Lorenzo almost at the heart Maria del city, the closest to San Marco, and Santa hidden Pianto is a church that is let’s say somewhat people don’t behind Fondamenta Nuove, and maybe located in very even realise that it exists… So they’re different places within the city’s scenery. Exactly, there are various owners, often the the SM: Exactly, there are various owners, often with the owners of these churches don’t correspond it can be a very people who manage the property, so complicated landscape. Because the churches belong to different owners, belong to different owners, EB: Because the churches right? ecclesiastic heritage is something that is relevant to to that is relevant something is heritage ecclesiastic a to continent whole ancient the of Europe, the whole becomes the theme In Venice degree. or lesser greater millions is traversed by it’s a city that relevant because not be yet it might but also by its residents, of tourists, of a particular building. determine the state possible to walk simply put, you can obvious state, very It’s not an it’s doors are closed, building, see that past an old what’s going on inside. A few but you can’t imagine courses, I worked with my years ago, in my design reutilisation of some of these students on the possible of Sant’Anna, San Lorenzo, churches, the churches Pianto in particular. The choice and Santa Maria del dictated simply by whether of these churches was for the properties were the organisations responsible doors. willing to open their OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 2 12 Soundcloud. ocean-archive.org or follow us on been listening to throughout the episode, was made in in made was the episode, to throughout listening been it when della Dogana, - Punta Grassi for Palazzo 2017 Hirst. This by Damien great exhibition hosting the was Teho by the musician Sea Change sound installation, made series of recordings created with a Teardo, was Lagoon. in the Venetian submerged using microphones to TBA21 - Academy all of you for listening Thanks to for the second Ocean Space, Venice, Radio from Stories from an urban lagoon episode of “Nowtilus. a podcast curated by Enrico in the 21st century”, Ongaro Sartori, in collaboration Bettinello and Alice for post-production. You can with Graziano Meneghin and future episodes of Nowtilus listen to this episode on aboard Nowtilus, a warm farewell Until the next time from Enrico Bettinello. And thank you to Teho Teardo, whose sound EB: And thank you to Teho Teardo, whose sound installation “Sea Change”, extracts of which you have SM: Thank you. Well, for now we’ll say thank you to Sara Marini, EB: Well, for now we’ll say thank you to Sara Marini, we wish her farewell, and thank her for joining us aboard Nowtilus and for having shared these thoughts and stories with such clarity and generosity. Thank you Sara Marini. I’d like to talk about a place first, then a situation. a situation. SM: I’d like to talk about a place first, then because For the place, it’s definitely Palazzo Grimani, house any it was an empty palace, which doesn’t hidden within collection in particular, and it’s sort of which the city because of its rather sober exterior, within, the contrasts sharply with what it contains decorations rooms, adorned with artificial landscapes, else, taking that instantly transport you somewhere an inch, you on a journey without even moving of this which actually brings us back to the theme conversation and what’s going on at the moment… As for the situation, it’s a situation that is often mentioned by people who have perhaps had to leave Venice, time, but for some who have maybe lived in Venice who still feel the nostalgia for this city quite acutely. And it’s walking at night, alone, though its streets. The texture of the shadows, of the darkness, which, far from being dangerous, actually wraps itself around you and protects you on these brief journeys through sound nights, accompanied by the the Venetian of your own footsteps: these sounds that bounce a completely architecture in around within Venice’s unrepeatable way. We are approaching the end of this episode, of of EB: We are approaching the end of this episode, we always our chat, but before we say our goodbyes, about a place, ask our guests on Nowtilus to tell us situation that’s close to their a moment, a Venetian What place or heart, to share this with our listeners. situation is close to your heart, Sara Marini? Musical interlude - Teho Teardo, “Sea Change” (2017) Musical interlude - Teho Teardo, “Sea Given the events of recent weeks and months, recent weeks and months, EB: Given the events of will be a particularly interesting let’s just say that this for reconsidering the possibility moment, a moment new opportunities, given that the of accommodating which has been the symbol of monoculture of tourism, life in the city in recent years, will daily and economic different for some time, and most likely be drastically to reconsider our city through so there’s an opportunity this lens. It’s a question which needs to be answered clearly, clearly, answered to be which needs question It’s a perspective, a housing from both and answered a jobs but also from fundamental, is obviously which continue to be Clearly new workers perspective. of be created, new ways forms of work can born, new to do knowledge: but renewing ancient collaborating, space. this, you need NOWTILUS EPISODE 3 13 iTunes and Google Podcasts. Born in Basilicata, but Venetian by choice. How How by choice. EB: Born in Basilicata, but Venetian by choice? long have you been Venetian NDC: Ah, for more than seven years now. EB: For more than seven years! An architect, musician and sound artist, Nicola Di Croce has always been interested in linking artistic perspectives with academic research, the sound environment and urban planning. One of his recent works - I believe from 2019, correct me if I’m wrong - was published in a book titled “Suoni a margine” (“Sounds in the margins”), published by Meltemi, and which explores these connections between the sound environment and urban issues. And it’s with this wonderful book that I’d like to begin, what were the guidelines of your investigation and why did you look specifically at sound as a tool? Spotify, SoundCloud,

Nicola Di Croce (NDC): Hello everyone. You are listening to “Nowtilus. Enrico Bettinello (EB): You are listening to “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century”, a Bettinello Enrico podcast by Ocean Space, Venice. is here to welcome you aboard Nowtilus, stories, thoughts, notes, and issues concerning the rethinking be exploring today. In our third episode we’ll of Venice the role of sounds and sights in the dynamics of the city. We’ll be doing this by exploring the artistic endeavours of two guests who have dedicated a series of interesting works to hearing and sight. We’re talking about Nicola Di Croce, who is now joining us aboard and who we will soon say hello to, and Mariateresa Sartori, who will meet in the second part of this episode. So for now, welcome Nicola Di Croce, welcome aboard. TBA21—Academy Radio

Available from 22nd May 2020, 4pm , TBA21-Academy Radio on Ocean Archive AND SIGHTS Sartori with Nicola Di Croce and Mariateresa SOUNDS SOUNDS Episode 3 OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 3 14 an analysis of the markets in the historical centre, I centre, I historical in the the markets of an analysis songs of and the cries some places that in realised much alive, very very much were still the merchants So disappearing. in others they were present, yet causes could have we link this to, what what can course Of to this gradual disappearance? contributed that city in mind, the fact evolution of the bearing the way, step along the alive at every a city is obviously less frequented, or are frequented some areas become the day. Think about tourism for at different times of changes and transforms the city example, how tourism themselves have to adapt, adjust and how the traders With this in mind, I realised to these transformations. areas for example, this that in some very touristy faster than in other more practice was disappearing residential areas. Nicola Di Croce, “Inner Tales” Musical interlude - (2014) like a EB: Talking about Palermo’s markets, it feels is about natural progression given that our programme to reflect for a moment on the Rialto market Venice, a market that perhaps doesn’t have that in Venice, at least it doesn’t same kind of characteristic sound, or but it’s anymore, that loud, mediterranean quality, the centre of a somewhere that has definitely been at It’s something profound transformation in recent years. are worrying that not only the people who work there because about, in fact the whole city is concerned, disappearing, you can see this historical market slowly it from an or at least changing. Have you studied you experience acoustic perspective - I imagine that resident than as the Rialto market more as an average on this if a researcher - but do you have any thoughts in Venice you have indeed studied the Rialto market from the point of view of its acoustic landscape? NDC: I’m definitely a regular visitor at the market. I also love its architecture, the loggias that somehow manage to contain the buzz, that fundamental character of markets and commercial spaces, the liveliest places in any city. Rialto market is obviously less noisy, less boisterous than the markets of Palermo, but it nonetheless displays some interesting characteristics that I’ve noticed while doing my shopping. One such feature is obviously the use of local dialects, the use of the voice that is obviously At the same itself. like a symbol for “Venetian-ness” time we are presented with a quieter market, one that offers the space for other cultures to emerge too. For example, there are people of other ethnicities who have set up businesses in the streets, and who give, who gift, a new tone, a different and certainly richer tone to the market, which makes it more complicated and more interesting for even a passing listener. and EB: Sticking with the theme of the sounds of Venice, its acoustic characteristics, during the lockdown that we have been living through in recent weeks, the isolation, the city has been so incredibly silent, not just at night It’s a very layered kind of work that follows a NDC: It’s a very layered kind of work that follows a series of various methods of research and expression. Listening, long before actually recording, is definitely the first step towards dealing with the questions that seem interesting and that generate curiosity and interest. I’ll give you a specific example, to bring this to life. A few years ago I was in Palermo for an artistic residency and I had been invited to develop a work, a project dedicated to the city. At that time I was particularly interested in how Palermo’s historical markets could be seen as particularly symbolic of this idea that we have in the Mediterranean: the songs, the sounds, these shopkeepers, these merchants that almost scream, crying out to promote their goods in a particularly fascinating way… And I asked myself how this way of doing things, this very powerful cultural trait, how it spreads through the various markets. From Now we’re curious about the way your work is EB: Now we’re curious about the way your work is presented day to day, because your analysis is really very interesting, and I’d like to understand how your research and artistic practise work in your everyday life. Hearing is definitely undervalued both as a tool as a tool NDC: Hearing is definitely undervalued both possibilities and as a sense. We are all aware of the it for granted that hearing offers us, but we often take “Suoni a in our daily lives. The title of the book emphasis margine” (“Sounds in the margins”) places hearing, on the fact that sound, and consequently and of the are often at the margins of our perception simultaneously culture in which we are immersed, yet to think, to sound and hearing give us the opportunity background. refocus, on issues that are often in the the I’m referring to issues like cultural transformation, the city is disappearance of local identity, the way and themes changing, the passage between events city and the that follow the transformations of the wider area. So, we’ve also talked about this with some of about this with some of EB: So, we’ve also talked episodes of Nowtilus, the our guests in previous in a society that is spoilt with notion that we live and these images all of Venice, images, images above splitting into many different duplicate themselves, superimpose themselves versions that sometimes we have of upon and almost saturate the impression listen to the this city. For you, why is it important to as a tool? city, and to use its sound as a sense and The book stems from the PhD programme in in PhD programme from the book stems The NDC: also but it I did in Venice, that planning territorial what I managed practice; artistic up to my opens the the planning of was a way of linking to develop and a both the city the rules that govern territory, so referring to hearing, area, with analyses much wider the encountered in tools that aren’t often research a ways also provide field, and that in some academic that can be reused in an series of data and references sound production, in performance artistic context, in and so forth. production, in installations OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 3 15 The sound of footsteps in the alleyways and in in and in the alleyways footsteps sound of The NDC: characteristic uniquely is definitely areas the quietest what specific, to be more if I have place, but of this very made in some me are the sounds really interest I notice that the places in which specific places, with the pavement the foot making contact motion of but a reverberation, a very particular sound: produces it’s really a specific just a reverberation, more than frequency, a… note… EB: A kind of music, a that echoes in a specific NDC: A note, a resonance identifiable with that exact place. moment and that’s is that there are many The thing that’s interesting within the geography of of these acoustic locations pass through them frequently, and I like to Venice, day maybe I’ll record them, do and who knows, one something with them... us know EB: Well, if you do end up doing that, let idea. So, we because it seems like a really interesting farewell. By thank Nicola Di Croce, and we wish him music in this the way, we are listening to some of his and again. It’s episode, fading in and out every now right here in music composed with recordings made as is often the case in many of our episodes Venice, for spending of Nowtilus. So, Nicola Di Croce, thanks some time with us, and see you soon. NDC: Thanks to you. Tales” Musical interlude - Nicola Di Croce, “Inner (2014) and EB: So we’ve said goodbye to Nicola Di Croce, Sartori aboard now we get to welcome Mariateresa involves artist whose research Nowtilus, a Venetian the empirical scientific method, behavioural dynamics, music and sound in relation to language. All very interesting topics and partly linked to what we were talking about with Nicola Di Croce. So now let’s welcome Mariateresa Sartori. Mariateresa Sartori (MTS): Hello everyone, thanks for inviting me. EB: Thank you for accepting our invitation aboard Nowtilus. Mariateresa Sartori, of all your many artistic projects, I’d like to begin our conversation by asking you to tell us about the ones that are directly linked to the physical and social dynamics involved in moving to begin with And so I’d like around the city of Venice. one of your projects that isn’t exactly recent given that it dates from 2006, but that in my opinion gives us a very good impression of the kind of artistic approach that you employ in observing this city. The work is entitled “Tutte le pause del mondo” (“All the pauses of the world”) and I’d like to ask you to tell us about it. MTS: “All the pauses of the world” is a fairly old Soon we must say goodbye, but before that, we EB: Soon we must say goodbye, but before that, we always ask our guests on Nowtilus to tell us about to their that is close a place or a situation in Venice hearts, to share this with our listeners. So I now ask you, which place or situation is close to your heart, Nicola Di Croce? It’s difficult to say. I think it’s more a question NDC: It’s difficult to say. I think it’s more a question of subtraction, the noises that we didn’t expect, like I was saying about the sounds of the intensive activity in the city’s spaces, of the masses of people that we were used to, or that we were often used to avoiding, perhaps in contrast with the more intimate sounds that we experience when we escape into an alleyway to avoid a crowd, places that not everyone is familiar with and where we feel safe. So, if you were to quickly tell us which sounds EB: So, if you were to quickly tell us which sounds in your in recent weeks, have characterised Venice opinion, what would they be? Yes, the last few weeks have been really been really last few weeks have NDC: Yes, the of a the point of view in many ways. From interesting I have found a new appreciation resident in this city, calmness that, with so many for the rediscovered disappeared here. At the same tourists, had all but that this silence went time however, I realised and in some ways became beyond my expectations, at times, especially because it almost overwhelming to which we normally pay less allowed other aspects, I’m talking about very simple attention, to emerge. church bell towers seemed to ring things, like how the and impetuously, just because out so aggressively contrast them there were no other features around to living through with. More generally speaking, I found at the same this time to be very interesting, because into the time I’ve been working on some research and relationship between the acoustic atmosphere relating commerce. While considering this theme, and its historical centre too, I decided to to Venice from my house make some recordings on the journey I live, Campo towards a busy square close to where at various times Santa Margherita. I retraced the route phases of the day, and especially during different which of the lockdown that we have experienced, on obviously entailed different types of restrictions of shops our freedom of movement and the types myself that could be open. On this walk I found and very in situations that were at first very quiet of features interesting because they were devoid but also utilising the space, so it was very desolate, view. As the very striking from a perceptual point of shops slowly began to reopen, I realised that the background buzz of commercial activity provided a for sure. slowly regained, quotidian quality that Venice as the Venetians will no doubt be familiar with, but also but also familiar with, doubt be will no Venetians as the a hearing from unique moment it’s been a the day, during recent these experienced have you How perspective. any have you made you done any research, weeks? Have city? of the sounds in our recordings OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 3 16 about famous footballers, but we can also think think can also but we footballers, famous about actors, those famous presenters, famous about the loss for feel an emotion you when maybe times for example there’s TV personality, of a celebrated like “They really felt grandmother who says: always a do they actually of the family,” because a member they (‘laughing’), because part of the family seem to be you so the people that of our lives. And become part too, the faces that we become meet around Venice of become a part of our family. accustomed to, kind works that you have dedicated So, among the other than dedicated, works that to this city - well rather based on observations of this you have developed that describe the trajectories, city - there are some understand why I use the word later we’ll try to better me it feels like a word that offers “trajectory,” but to the work you have done, different ways of interpreting people and their movements the trajectories of the On your within the city and on public transport. little excerpt of website you can see the results and a be great if you two works in particular, and it would especially could tell us a little about these works, and another “Tutti quelli che vanno” (‘All people going’) that has a similar title. MTS: The word “trajectories” is the right choice. about a few “All people going” is a series that came from the years ago, thanks to the incredible material group, from “Fisica della Città” (Physics of the City) physicists, the University of Bologna; theoretical Burno Giorgini, mathematicians, and so on, above all gave me to whom I will be forever grateful, who high above access some video footage shot from during carnival over the course of four years. Venice Ducale, the By high above I mean from the Palazzo and so on. Campanile, the Basilica di San Marco quintessential They needed material filmed in this, the pedestrianised city in order to analyse and then later deduce formulae that could make predictions. In the end this is what I did: I loaded brief clips of these videos onto a computer, so imagine people seen from above during the Sunday of carnival, the particularly busy times, very brief little clips of just two to three minutes. I applied a transparent piece of plastic over the computer monitor, and with a pen I traced the route - indeed the trajectory - of every single person within this timeframe. In the end, after removing the transparent sheet, I had this kind of network showing everything that happened within that spacetime. In fact, this was then of interest to the scientists, because they were effectively talking about an image of spacetime. The thing that came out of this, and this is another thing that always interests me, was the discovery of behavioural dynamics through a very empirical process. In this instance it related to Piazza San Marco, and two broad social categories can be fairly clearly distinguished, people who live in Venice, who work or at least the people namely the Venetians, here, and the tourists. So, the lines that were more or less straight, that cut across Piazza San Marco in two people who or diagonals, were made by Venetians Actually what you were talking about is something EB: Actually what you were talking about is something that really does happen sometimes. You were talking work, but in some ways it talks about Venice too, too, Venice it talks about ways but in some work, is based The work why. try to explain briefly and I’ll between conversations in spontaneous pauses around city, an international being to Venice people. Thanks speaking different to find pairs of people I was able up strategy that I came who, thanks to a languages to having completely spontaneously, with, spoke topics. I wasn’t actually on certain find an agreement they were saying, but rather that interested in what conversations were what the pauses within these gathered footage of this… It’s interested me. So I there’s actually a branch of interesting because pausology, the pauses between linguistics known as in cultures and languages questions and answers vary greatly, as in the time, around the world actually and so misunderstandings the lengths of the pauses, this, it’s a very rich area of can even result from lots of footage of these people study... So I filmed tongues, and talking to one another in their mother These then I spent a lot of time editing this footage. these people. people, I didn’t actually know some of western foreign Since there’s a faculty of eastern and many of these people worked at languages in Venice, who I was the university or were university professors, the video meeting for the first time. We met, I filmed in the editing footage, and I worked for a long time movements chair, studying the pauses for very slight thoughts ran of the eyebrows, a glance upwards as it became very through the mind. And so in some ways I could use intimate - I don’t know what other word and I began to for my interaction with these people - bond. form a bond with them, an almost affectionate them again... When did I discover this? When I met comes back into play, Venice And this is where Venice you bump is international but it’s also very small, just doesn’t into people in the street, something that So when happen in a great international metropolis. I happened to meet these people in the street, I went right up to them, with great enthusiasm and affection, and in response there was actually this coldness compared to my approach, because these people had only ever seen me once in their lives, and they hardly recognised me. So my relationship with them... The interesting thing that I reflected on and experienced, is that relationships don’t require an exchange in order to grow, they can be completely unambiguous, and don’t even require great admiration or devotion. I don’t know, think about the idolisation of footballers for example, or actors, singers, and so on. It doesn’t even require this devotional approach, a close observation of an image suffices, in this case a moving image, and therefore a familiarity, but it’s absolutely unambiguous. This leads to the creation of a bond, a bond that has no need for anything in return. This led me to discover being international allowed me to see Venice Venice. these people - two Germans, two Arabs, two French people, Chinese, Japanese, and so on - but then also to meet them in the street. OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 3 17 and peculiar to the people who don’t live here, and and live here, who don’t the people to and peculiar The look faces. on their in that look reflected this is at that different completely give is Venetians that the closes the gate. the deckhand moment when that another they know (‘laughing’) EB: Because the tourists think along, maybe boat is coming we (‘laughs’)... So, their last chance they’ve missed end of our chat, before we say are approaching the ask our guests on Nowtilus to tell goodbye, we always moment, a situation that we might us about a place, a heart, and to share this with our say is close to their you too, which place is close to listeners. So I’ll ask Sartori? your heart, Mariateresa Lido, where I the Venice MTS: I’d like to talk about is definitely more there than in was born. My heart world. Something just came to any other place in the enjoyable mind. Recently I had an experience, both I was on my and unsettling at the same time. When of the Lido bike, heading to Murazzi, which is a part to protect protected by these rocks and breakwaters, it from storm surges… for the EB: An area that faces the sea, just to explain people who don’t know it. because MTS: Right, it’s important to mention actually, than to the I feel much more connected to the sea I felt lagoon. On my bike, looking at the breakwaters, (‘laughs’)... like I was one of these breakwaters too like” or It was very strange, not a feeling of “being So then “looking like”… I actually was this breakwater. In this case I thought: what actually is a breakwater? out into the it’s a long concrete structure that extends outwards. And sea, so a part of the land that extends but so I suppose it’s a nice thing to feel anchored, inclined towards the sea. It was a very nice sensation. I think I felt this sensation, this emotion, because of the incredibly deep bond I have with these places. EB: Well, could it also be something to do with, maybe unconsciously, a kind of protection, given that these call them - I breakwaters, “dighe” as we Venetians think the technical term is “frangiflutti” (breakwater) or something like that - were obviously built to protect the beaches and the coastline from the force of the sea. So maybe, and this is a question for you, could it not also be a sense of protection for the things that you care about? MTS: I don’t know, no, the feeling is one of actually being this thing made of concrete, something solid, that begins on the land but has this momentum towards the sea and towards the horizon. EB: Great, well a big thank you to Mariateresa Sartori for joining us aboard Nowtilus, and we wish her farewell. Thank you Mariateresa Sartori. MTS: Thank you, thank you and goodbye. Yes, disorientation, but with a bit of despair MTS: Yes, disorientation, but with a bit of despair inside too. The interesting thing, something I often think about, is that an average tourist who misses a bus in Florence, that’s to say a more normal mode of transport, would never demonstrate this kind of expression. It’s effectively a result of being in such an unusual city, the dynamics that seem so extravagant EB: A look of disorientation. A video camera, but it was resting on my my MTS: A video camera, but it was resting on at first I managed shoulder, I did lots of tests, because or of people’s to capture quite a lot of shots of the sky feet (‘laughing’), because I wasn’t looking through the viewfinder… but by the end I more or less got the hang of it. In this way humanity is observed as a species, moving like a herd. The people who board the boat are the ones that manage to get on, the ones that stay behind though, and this is particularly interesting to me, have this look on their faces - only the tourists though, who find themselves in an unfamiliar situation, very different from their normal environment and non-aquatic the habits, or at least the non-Venetians, people - and at the moment when the deckhand closes the gate, the look on the faces of these people is a look of dismay towards the horizon, a look that seems to say: “What happens now?” What did you use to film? A video camera or a or a EB: What did you use to film? A video camera phone? Yes, this other work is a video piece called called MTS: Yes, this other work is a video piece (“Those who go “Quelli che vanno quelli che restano” I squeezed those who stay behind”). In this instance, the busiest on board a crowded water bus during chose a place time of the year, in July and August. I of the people on the boat that gave me the best view the people boarding the boat from the pontoon, or the gate was who didn’t manage to get on because to note that closed by the deckhand. It’s important so it was these people couldn’t see that I was filming, it rested on my actually a sort of candid camera, I had shoulder. So, another work that concerns these tourists, concerns these tourists, EB: So, another work that their beautiful curves, relates to after they’ve created the vaporetto… What can you where they go to board tell us about this? Musical Interlude - Nicola Di Croce, “Inner Tales” Nicola Di Croce, “Inner Tales” Musical Interlude - (2014) It’s a kind of infographic of our movements from a a movements from of infographic of our EB: It’s a kind certain point of view. work in Venice. On the other hand, all the beautiful all the beautiful hand, On the other in Venice. work beautiful that made zig-zags and trajectories wiggly clearly were on themselves and doubled-back curves the were there for and the people who the tourists the I’ve continued over is something that carnival. This to excite me. which continues years, and NOWTILUS EPISODE 4 18 iTunes and Google Podcasts. and Statistical Sciences at the University of Ca’ and Statistical Sciences at the University of Ca’ Corami We will welcome Fabiana Foscari, Venice. later on, but for now we’ll say welcome to Luigi Cavaleri. Luigi Cavaleri, welcome. Luigi Cavaleri (LC): Hello Enrico, it’s a pleasure to be here. EB: How are you? Everything well? LC: All well, thank you. The lagoon is also doing pretty well. EB: Oh, good, that’s reassuring! So, introducing you properly would take quite some time, time that we don’t have unfortunately, because your long time spent at ISMAR, both as an oceanographer and also as the director of ISMAR-CNR, really does represent a glowing career that does the organisation Spotify, SoundCloud,

You are listening to “Nowtilus. Enrico Bettinello (EB): You are listening to “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century”, a Bettinello is Enrico podcast by Ocean Space, Venice. here to welcome you - or welcome you back if you’ve listened to our previous episodes - aboard Nowtilus, stories, thoughts, notes, and issues concerning the episode today. In our fourth rethinking of Venice we will immerse ourselves, almost physically, in our lagoon, tackling some themes that are at the centre of the debate around the health of the lagoon ecosystem, themes such as the tides or the presence of microplastics in the water. And we will be doing this along with Luigi Cavaleri, oceanographer at ISMAR-CNR, who we are about to welcome aboard, and in the second part of the episode, Fabiana Corami, researcher at the Institute of Polar Sciences at CNR and at the Department of Environmental, Information TBA21—Academy Radio

Available from 3rd June 2020, 4pm , TBA21-Academy Radio on Ocean Archive MICRO-PLASTICS and Fabiana Corami (CNR-ISP) with Luigi Cavaleri (CNR-ISMAR) MACRO-TIDES AND MACRO-TIDES Episode 4 OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 4 19 talking about the replenishment of the water. How long How long the water. of replenishment about the talking the sea to recirculate for the or less, it take, more does like Venice? in a lagoon water a politician: “It to respond like LC: Ah, I’ll have we’re part of the lagoon It depends which depends.” tide, there’s a spring For example when talking about. as much water enters or a new moon, during a full is in the lagoon to begin with: the the lagoon as there doubles. But this doesn’t mean volume of the lagoon recirculation, because the water that there’s a 50% pushes the existing water out of that enters the lagoon ends up heading back out to sea. the way, and 90% average recirculation with every It’s estimated that the 5%, and the recirculation time tide cycle is around the location within the lagoon. If varies depending on a piece of wood into the basin of you were to throw two tide cycles that wood would San Marco, within that wood into end up out at sea. If you were to throw 30, 40 tide the lagoon from Burano, you would need cycles, because it’s much further away. EB: There really is quite a tangible difference We were between the different parts of this lagoon. that leave, talking about tides that enter and tides “acqua alta” and obviously the phenomenon of the debate for (high tide) is currently at the centre of year the city residents. On the 12th November last “acqua was hit particularly hard by a momentous issues, alta”, and the debate began around various look like in about safeguarding and what that will increasingly the future, and how to deal with these in simple terms frequent phenomena. Can you explain alta” and what happens in these instances of “acqua happened last what particular conditions caused what November when that terrible event occurred? LC: Certainly. First of all, there are normal tides, the tides governed by the moon and the sun. In fact in the northern part of the Adriatic we have the highest tides in the whole of the Mediterranean. When there’s a full moon or a new moon there’s a rise of about one has sunk metre. We have to bear in mind that Venice down over the years - and we’ll talk about this later - and we are relatively close to the water. So all it takes is a small rise in water levels and some parts of the city are flooded. Then there’s the meteorological component, simply due to the Sirocco wind; the Adriatic is practically a basin, more or less rectangular rectangular is at the top of this in shape, and Venice basin, so when the wind blows from the south towards the north, it pushes the water towards the upper part of the basin; this is what we technically call a “storm surge”. What happens or what doesn’t happen next depends on good or bad luck. For example on the 29th October a year and a half ago, we were very lucky, because there was a very high meteorological tide, but it happened during a low astronomical tide, so the sum of the two was tolerable, one metre fifty. On the other hand, on the 12th November last year, the tide, the storm I should say, wasn’t itself particularly strong, That’s definitely very interesting. So, you were EB: That’s definitely very interesting. So, you were Yes, but they’re everywhere. There’s even LC: Yes, but they’re everywhere. There’s even someone working with us at the institute who is studying them. The other thing that might interest you, regarding microplastics, are the residues in the seabed, from fishing nets and other things, and someone here at the institute is studying this to find out how to recover and remove them from the seabed. We’ll be talking about microplastics in the second EB: We’ll be talking about microplastics in the second part of the programme with Fabiana Corami; I imagine they’re present all around the world… Of course. As an oceanographer I have to tell you I have to tell you LC: Of course. As an oceanographer chose not to work on the lagoon at straight away that I seas in order first, but instead I focused mostly on the However, I’m to give me a more general perspective. so I know the lagoon very well. The lagoon Venetian, point of should perhaps be seen from an evolutionary it today, but view. We like to think about it as we see something of a we could say that the lagoon is merely of rivers that geological transient. There are a number the Sile, empty into the sea, these being the Piave, which then the Brenta, and they create coastal bars and in doing so occlude certain parts of the coastline, with water over they also create a lagoon that fills up Lagoon Venetian the course of many years. The current existed is around 5000 years old. Others previously and the within it, there’s a sort of natural evolution realised this, so they deviated the course Venetians in order of the rivers to empty outside the lagoon, it’s essential to prevent it from filling up. Obviously sea, otherwise for a lagoon to be in contact with the the tides, it would just turn into a big pond. In fact are which are also one of the big problems for Venice, essential for oxygenating the water, for recirculating it. So we have something of a love-hate relationship with the sea, it gives us life, but with all its statistical variability, it also frequently leads to problems. However from a biological health perspective, the lagoon isn’t doing too badly. You mentioned microplastics, and they are certainly present in the lagoon, but they’re present everywhere around the world… Though you’re an oceanographer who obviously who obviously an oceanographer EB: Though you’re Lagoon, which is of course works on the Venetian nonetheless a very interesting not an ocean, but is would like to begin our environment. And I you to tell us about what conversation by asking Lagoon really is, the Venetian kind of environment how the tides interact with this just very briefly, and environment. Oceanographer is absolutely fine, I think that fine, I think that is absolutely LC: Oceanographer responsibilities. percent of my covers ninety a great honour. Was I correct to introduce you as an you as an introduce to Was I correct honour. a great to add do I need or at ISMAR-CNR, oceanographer anything? OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 4 20 wars - due to which we lost about fifteen centimetres centimetres fifteen lost about which we - due to wars and Padana area, of the Val whole there’s the - but a millimetre sinks by which in particular, Venice due to the per year due to subsidence, and a half which the Val Padana of sediments upon compaction the rising sea level. then secondly, there’s lies. And per millimetre and a half been rising by a The sea has and the climate change long time. Now with year for a of glaciers, it’s currently rising by accelerated melting per year, which may not three and a half millimetres over one hundred years, that’s 35 seem like much, but is that this is predicted to centimeters. The problem by the end of the century the sea accelerate, and so higher than it is now. With level will be 60 centimetres 13 centimetres, that would sinking by another Venice be pretty much under water by mean San Marco would This is the problem. The higher the end of the century. events is simply due to the fact number of “acqua alta” getting higher, that we are getting lower, the water is wouldn’t have and so what used to be an increase that does flood it. flooded San Marco, now unfortunately simply climate There’s nothing special going on: it’s change for change. I wouldn’t want to blame climate seas are rising everything, but it’s undeniable that the go, the more faster and faster. The further down we often we’ll get wet. matters, EB: So, given that you have studied these events of a in the past have there been “acqua alta” that we similar scale to what we see today? Events they happened no longer remember, because maybe centuries ago? The LC: Look, let’s go back to the 19th century. began in 1871, measurements of the tides in Venice a few months right after a big “acqua alta” in 1867, was unified with the rest of Italy. The after Venice famous Podestà Bembo was probably in charge at the time, a name that we see on many inscriptions marking and the “Rio Terà” (filled-in canals) around Venice, he decided to take the bull by the horns and begin measuring. But there are paintings that clearly depict the “acqua alta” in 1850, in 1825, there are also other episodes dating from the 17th century; and let’s not forget 1106 when it’s said that the water came up to the windows of houses. What caused it that time is still something that’s up for debate, some people don’t discount it entirely. I personally believe it was a seaquake. EB: Well, if it really was on that scale (‘laughing’), it really must have been a peculiar event… LC: The windows in 1106 would correspond with coming up to the first floor today. EB: Cavaleri, our chat has been really enjoyable, but unfortunately we are approaching its end. Luigi are in Cavaleri, how many generations of Venetians your family? Firstly, there are no indications that there are any LC: Firstly, there are no indications that there are any shorter or longer term cycles, that’s just a statistical fact. The events that you define as exceptional, precisely because the word derives from the latin “exceptiones”, means that they must happen once in a while, so there’s little we can do. As for the impact of human activity… I would be cautious about that. There aren’t any indications that human activity has changed the frequency of the “acqua alta”. There has never been much difference between the measurements of the tide at sea and in the lagoon. Perhaps the petroli canal could have accelerated the ingress of the water to some degree, but more than anything, if it caused any damage it was to the flow of currents within the lagoon itself, obviously. More than anything the increase in frequency of “acqua alta” is due to two sinking. contingent factors. Firstly the fact that Venice The city has sunk not only because of the draining of water that took place after the end of the two world So we can say that it was caused by truly truly EB: So we can say that it was caused by have also asked exceptional events. But lots of people the dredging of themselves how much human activity, obviously isn’t larger canals, the petroli canal, which being done actually that recent, but maybe the work example, for the mobile dam system is a more recent played how much of a role these projects have the “acqua recently in the increasing frequency of really have such alta”. Is this actually the case? Do we also outline a decisive role in all of this, or can we the historical cycles of high tides, that in unfortunate circumstances, like those that you have described very clearly in the case of the 12th November, would always lead to events like these? but three different things happened. The first happened happened The first happened. things different but three which coincided peak, this meteorological during were two factors so the peak, the astronomical with also been a low Then there had added together. or for two system over the Mediterranean pressure which connects so the Mediterranean, three weeks, so thirty centimetres, had risen by with the Atlantic, than centimetres higher was already thirty the water was a phenomenon, really a usual. Moreover there pressure system, like a small one-off, this very low up from the Gargano in Puglia hurricane that came the entire peninsula, passing close and came up along passed over Pellestrina - - it practically to Venice moment; this is what blew all the right at the crucial part of the lagoon around water up from the lower and it caused the water Chioggia towards Venice, know about of Venice to rise - and the shopkeepers half a metre in just an hour. this all too well - almost at San Marco, Incidentally, this accumulation of water side of the city and the subsequent deficit on the other behind the at Fondamente Nove, this is the reason city, the south difference between the two sides of the the reason behind those full-on and north of Venice, flowing at rivers, like in Via Garibaldi or in the canals, really was two metres per second. The 12th November events. a combination of particularly unfortunate OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 4 21 Thank you and goodbye, it has been a pleasure. it has been goodbye, you and LC: Thank us too. for was a pleasure you, it EB: Thank “Teredo Navalis” - Enrico Coniglio, Musical interlude (2020) Cavaleri and now goodbye to Luigi EB: We’ve said Corami aboard Nowtilus, we welcome Fabiana of Polar Sciences CRN- researcher at the Institute years now, for more than ISP, focusing for many chemistry and other twenty years, on environmental environment, particularly - and issues linked to the why we invited her aboard this is one of the reasons a problem that is obviously Nowtilus - microplastics, multidisciplinary, that also involves very important and fields, when we take into account social and economic has on the economy for all of the impact that plastic welcome! us. So let’s welcome Fabiana Corami: Fabiana Corami (FC): Hello, and thanks for inviting me. you EB: Thank you for joining us aboard, I’ll ask about straight away, seeing as we’re talking microplastics, can you tell us what exactly we can microplastics are? Based on the name between take a guess, but what is the difference the microplastics and plastics, and how does have a presence of microplastics in the environment of plastic that different impact compared to the pieces we can perhaps see more easily? of your FC: Straight away I’ll focus on the last part that we find in question, namely the pieces of plastic are. the environment and what exactly microplastics First of all, we have to use the term “microplastics” and often because there are many kinds of plastic, we don’t consider certain types of materials that we see around us as plastics, such as textiles or vehicle tyres, but these are a source of plastic too. So when we talk about microplastics, we’re talking about something extremely small, and when I say extremely small, I always give an example. Let’s take a ruler, one that shows millimetres; we can see the markings for millimetres between the centimetre markings with the naked eye, this means that if we find ourselves in front of a fragment of something of that size, we could see it with the naked eye. So, to paraphrase a writer that’s very dear to me, in fact very dear to many people, “what is essential is invisible to the eye,” well, microplastics are also invisible to the eye, because they are so small that they can be fifty to one hundred times smaller than those markings that we see on the ruler. And so that means they’re invisible to the naked eye. We therefore need to use a microscope or an instrument that contains a microscope in order to see fragments of that size. So it’s clear that there’s a whole world beyond what we’re able to see. Consequently when we evaluate the impact of plastics nowadays, we tend to judge things based on what we can see, because it’s clear that the large islands of plastic that Thank you, thank you so much to Luigi Cavaleri, to EB: Thank you, thank you so much to Luigi Cavaleri, to whom who we now must say goodbye, and who we thank for joining us today, and in just a few moments we will have Fabiana Corami aboard Nowtilus, but for now thank you to Luigi Cavaleri, have a good day. No, it’s close. It’s one of the examples that I that I LC: No, it’s close. It’s one of the examples recommend people to visit in order to appreciate the work of a real master. Normally we are accustomed to going to museums and saying: “ah yes, how beautiful.” So in short, what is it? Well, the brothers of San Sebastiano didn’t have the money to pay a painter, so they held a contest for a young painter, unknown and still a novice, to see who could paint the whole church with frescoes. They didn’t end up painting frescoes everywhere, only for the sacristy. If you go into the sacristy you will see eight, ten, twelve paintings by as many different painters. If someone goes inside, looks around and says “that one there!” there’s no doubt about it. They’ve had the fortune of encountering Paolo it’s another Caliari, more famously known as Veronese: world, another type of work, another thing altogether. It really is one of the most beautiful examples of what a talented person’s work looks like compared to the average “handyman.” EB: Which isn’t far from there. LC: The church of San Sebastiano. Ah! And the second place that’s close to your to your EB: Ah! And the second place that’s close heart? Well, I’ve thought about this… There are two about this… There are two LC: Well, I’ve thought recommend you visit in Venice, places that I would very often. Let’s start with places that aren’t visited San Nicolò dei Mendicoli, an the smaller of the two: close to the basins, behind almost unknown church a jewel for me, because it’s said the sea port; but it’s in the 8th century, not the 18th that it was founded destroyed, then rebuilt in the century! Later it was little jewel, no one ever goes there 13th century. It’s a of the most beautiful places in and for me it’s one It’s one of those beautiful corners of Venice. Venice. and that’s Incidentally it’s on the island of San Nicolò, “mendicoli” why it’s called Nicolò di Mendicoli, the they were meaning mendicant, obviously because term used to poor, and “nicolotti” was actually the fact spoke a describe people from that area, who in It’s something unique dialect, distinct from Venetian. not forget that in that surprises people today, but let’s which part my youth, it was still possible to distinguish someone came from by how they spoke. of Venice So we can define you as a true Venetian, and and Venetian, define you as a true EB: So we can our that we always ask for the question now it’s time heart, is close to your place or situation guests. Which Luigi Cavaleri? One side of my family has been Venetian for many many for been Venetian family has side of my LC: One don’t know. exactly, I many how generations, OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 4 22 impact will not be felt immediately, but could be felt be felt but could be felt immediately, will not impact Venetian in the the case As is often long term. in the in general, pollution about we talk and when Lagoon, are felt immediately some impacts that there are time but at the same an acute problem, which cause over time, becoming problems that continue there are into and research clear that our studies chronic. It’s aimed at understanding chemicals are environmental namely the persistence of these phenomena, and this is also one of pollutants in the environment, to the presence of microplastics. the problems linked to something that EB: Earlier you made reference by. According to your studies, now we’re intrigued sources of microplastics in our what are the principal as you have been analysing this for lagoon and, seeing tell us something about the state some time, can you aside the incident in recent days, of health - leaving event, the because it was obviously a very dramatic contained, but effects of which we hope will be more in terms of that still needs to be evaluated… However, of health of our microplastics, what is the current state lagoon? current FC: Well, whatever way you look at it, the because state of the lagoon is a work in progress, that it’s early days for the studies, in the sense We our understanding is continually evolving. for solid are definitely building a good foundation measurements understanding, and therefore for solid conducting too. Because the fundamental thing when or as we research is having data that is really solid, say, robust. The sources are very varied. daily lives? EB: Can you give us an example from our FC: Actually together with Dr. Rosso, I approached this problem initially by looking into what comes out of the waste water from washing machines, because we discovered - because you never stop learning - that microplastics can be produced by synthetic textiles. And so the waste water from washing machines, or even from hand washing, can contribute to the presence of microplastics in the environment. Why is this? Because the microplastics, as I was saying earlier, are so small that even though waste water can later be treated in a purification system, in some cases they manage to pass through the filters of the purification process, and we therefore find them in the environment. They become an environmental problem the moment they get into the environment, because as soon as the microplastics, these tiny fragments, end up in the environment, they are passed around as food by microorganisms, and therefore consumed by things like oysters, mussels and clams. And this becomes a problem. Furthermore we find plastic in other uses closer to home: think about the disposable face masks that we’re all using at the moment, or the gloves that we have to use: these are also a source of plastic. EB: And you see many of these strewn about the place… What it might contain is something that’s being FC: What it might contain is something that’s being studied by both l’Arpav, through its surveys, and by researcher colleagues. And in my opinion it’s important to understand what exactly happened, because the EB: Right, what could that contain? Well, this is a question that we have asked asked FC: Well, this is a question that we have Dr. ourselves, both me and my closest colleague, who Beatrice Rosso at the Ca’ Foscari University, this studies microplastics with me, we started being together. As soon as the lockdown began, ourselves forced to stay at home, we also asked canals being this question. In reality, rather than the This is cleaner, they’ve become more transparent. were given a because the sediments of the lagoon moment of respite as soon as the traffic of speedboats and little motorboats in the canals stopped, just as the wheeled traffic on the roads reduced, so did the traffic on the water, and so there was this moment of calm. This downtime meant that the sediments in the lagoon weren’t churned up, so the canals definitely became more transparent, and this allowed us to see the presence of fish, which we couldn’t previously see due to the murkiness of the water, and this definitely gave us the impression that the water was cleaner, less polluted, but I always say that pollution is something invisible to the eye, something that was shown to be true in recent events, like what happened with the fire in Marghera last Friday. There was an enormous plume of black smoke that accumulated between Marghera and Mestre, and immediately we asked ourselves: “There was this black cloud… what could be in that?” Obviously in the last few weeks of lockdown, few weeks of lockdown, EB: Obviously in the last has heard that every Venetian one of the questions above all by people being asked more frequently, and a question that I’ll now ask who aren’t in the city, the canals are you, is the famous: “But is it true that legends of cleaner now?” Leaving aside the urban (‘laughing’) and dolphins and crocodiles in the canals news that has who knows what else, clearly this was but also in the been picked up by various newspapers, us about, this context of what you have been telling the question idea is even more interesting, so I’ll turn the lockdown over to you: “Is it true that because of the canals are cleaner now?” can be found in the oceans have a big visual impact, impact, a big visual have the oceans found in can be absolutely that we a problem represent and therefore that to remember also have But we to resolve. have scale on a microscopic another problem there’s also in our soil, in our air, it’s us, it’s in our that surrounds in impact can be felt and its in Venice, lagoon here too. possible sources and there are many many ways, that isn’t just looking at something Because we’re but is also present within found in the environment, we humans then eat. There’s the organisms that on the whole environment, subsequently an impact and so there’s also an impact on including mankind, human health. OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 4 23 here.” And then I did, being able to come back, to to to come back, able I did, being And then here.” into the my research carry out to and to continue work immediately Venice say that yes, let’s So, environment. your heart in strange to find its way into manages ways. of your word, And you’re a woman EB: (‘Laughing’) you something, and promised yourself because you Thank you so much, we thank kept that promise. having joined us aboard Nowtilus. Fabiana Corami for Thank you and goodbye. FC: Thank you, goodbye. Luigi Cavaleri once again for EB: We’d like to thank first part of the episode. Special being with us in the Coniglio, who is a musician, a thanks also to Enrico music you have been listening too, whose Venetian excerpts to during this episode in the form of some the next few from an album that will be released in the name of days, titled “Teredo Navalis”, which is burrows into a small type of worm, or parasite, that (wooden wood, in particular the wood of the “bricole” the lagoon. piles) and other wooden structures of to the fourth Thanks of course to all of you for listening to TBA21- episode of Nowtilus, and for having listened was This Academy Radio from Ocean Space, Venice. in the 21st “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon Bettinello and century”, a podcast curated by Enrico with Graziano Alice Ongaro Sartori, in collaboration listen to Meneghin for post-production. You can episodes this episode, and both previous and future of Nowtilus on ocean-archive.org or follow us on Soundcloud. A warm farewell from Enrico Bettinello. Exactly. I did my degree thesis right here in FC: Exactly. I did my degree thesis right here in Lagoon, and the place studying the Venetian Venice, that’s close to my heart is actually a crossing from the Lido to Sacca Sessola, on one morning at around dawn, on a foggy day in a little boat. And I remember that in addition to hearing the fog horns, seeing shapes appear through the mist, I also caught a glimpse of some skyline every now and again when the fog cleared for a moment, and my first thought was: “Some day, I will come back to this city and I want to live EB: Acquired (‘laughing’). FC: I’m an adopted Venetian. Those are some interesting precautions that give that give EB: Those are some interesting precautions minimise this us an example of how we can help to We’re coming microplastic phenomenon little by little. which has towards the end of our conversation, been very interesting and we could go on for much longer, but time is unfortunately running out. Before we say our goodbyes though, we ask our guests on Nowtilus to tell us about a place or a situation that’s close to their heart, to share this with our listeners. From your accent it appears that you’re not originally for a Venetian but I imagine you’ve been from Venice, number of years, and so will certainly have a place or situation that’s close to your heart. I’m convinced that every one of us can contribute every one of us can contribute FC: I’m convinced that without having to demonize plastic, in some small way, still have important applications because plastic does useful. Nevertheless, returning and is therefore very for example, right now we are to a previous point masks and gloves, which are a obliged to wear face as we were saying, the correct source of plastic, but Just way of disposing of these items is fundamental. plastics as fundamental as the reduction of single-use when I for example. I’ll give you a classic example: comes in a get a coffee from a vending machine it just in Europe plastic cup. In many other countries, not situations it’s but also in the US for example, in many because you possible to avoid using a disposable cup, So these are can use your own cup and wash it later. textiles just small changes. And as for the synthetic that can that I use? Well there are little precautions be taken when washing them, high temperatures, of or strong detergents can lead to the creation abrasion of the more fibres, because it’s actually the materials that creates these particles. In your opinion, are there behaviours, even simple even simple are there behaviours, EB: In your opinion, basis to adopt on a daily we could all try ones, which impact in addressing the that could have a consistent problem of microplastics? Exactly. And also the tarpaulins used in agriculture used in agriculture the tarpaulins And also FC: Exactly. too. The of plastic a source they’re the soil, to cover of the particles carries soil then from the run-off the so as you can see into the lagoon, microplastics very diverse. sources are NOWTILUS EPISODE 5 24 iTunes and Google Podcasts. interesting ideas and cultural exchange, especially interesting ideas and cultural exchange, especially in the spheres of sustainability, books and literature, varied themes that we will be exploring in this episode. And we’ll be doing this together with Sabina Rizzardi, who is one of the owners of Libreria Marco Polo bookshop, and who we are about to welcome aboard, and later, in the second part of the episode, we’ll be talking to Shaul Bassi, a lecturer at Ca’ let’s not For now though, Foscari University in Venice. keep her waiting, let’s say hello to Sabina Rizzardi, welcome! Spotify, SoundCloud,

You are listening to “Nowtilus. Enrico Bettinello (EB): You are listening to “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century”, a Bettinello is Enrico podcast by Ocean Space, Venice. here to welcome you, or welcome you back aboard Nowtilus, stories, thoughts, notes, and issues In our 5th today. concerning the rethinking of Venice episode of Nowtilus we’ll be talking about books and bookshops, and human environmental science, ground for has always been a breeding how Venice TBA21—Academy Radio HUMANITIES Available from 19th June 2020, 4pm TBA21-Academy Radio on Ocean Archive, with Sabina Rizzardi (Libreria Marco Polo) and Shaul Bassi (Ca’ Foscari University) with Sabina Rizzardi (Libreria Marco Polo) and Shaul ENVIRONMENTAL ENVIRONMENTAL

THE WATER AND AND THE WATER BOOKS ON BOOKS Episode 5 OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 5 25 but to some extent for all businesses in Venice and and in Venice businesses for all some extent but to The landlords. therefore is rent, and cities, in other in New bookshops Jackson McNally of the founder isn’t the multinationals recently said that it York just bookshops in danger, events that put or catastrophic can payments. And I stratospheric rental but rather case. We feel very that this really is the safely say who now, landlords encountered, twice lucky to have their spaces available to us and have decided to make instead of to perhaps a souvenir to the bookshops, there are many in the city, and shop or a bar, of which a very affordable rent no less. for what we consider is definitely the choice of books Another ingredient that we have inside. ask you, what kinds of EB: I was just about to your choice of books, guidelines do you base around in a bookshop like publishers, and authors Libreria Marco Polo? there’s a SR: Well, I’ll begin by saying that in the shop for adults choice of fiction, non-fiction and illustration publishing and children, from small to medium-sized houses, houses, known as independent publishing As people with whom we share a similar worldview. and the and as book dealers, the books we choose, the people who messages that these books convey to very important decide to come through the door, are to our hearts to us. A section that has been very close books, of in recent years is our selection of feminist which we which we have a wide variety, and around as a final also set up a festival. And, I have to say ingredient… (‘laughing’), EB: Now this cake has a lot of ingredients it seems? so you need a lot to make a good cake, SR: Exactly (‘laughs’). So last but not least, is us, the bookshop owners. We’re all very different people, but it appears that we’re a good mix and we’re willing to have discussions. So there you have it, I’d say that’s the recipe. EB: Perfect, I hope our listeners have made a note of it, if they want to open a bookshop, those are the ingredients. So, we were talking about the selection of books that you have in the shop. The bookshop is called “Marco Polo,” a name that we immediately associate and with travel. So why this name? with Venice SR: We chose this name for the bookshop because it carries with it the name of the first Libreria Marco Polo, which was opened many years ago in the area around Teatro Malibran, right where Marco Polo’s house is said to be located. Today the Libreria Marco Polo is no longer a travel bookshop, but we decided to bring the name with us, and let’s say that books have become our preferred form of travel. EB: And do you sell books by Marco Polo? Is Marco Polo a popular author nowadays? Right, exactly, so I often think about that, and SR: Right, exactly, so I often think about that, and all the other meetings and exchanges, both formal and informal, that have found their place in the bookshop, and that have defined our journey so far. So we definitely have an openness and willingness to listen in terms of shaping our evolution with respect to the city that embraces us and that gives us this opportunity to run our bookshops. Another ingredient that is very important, not only for the bookshop, Which we will also be talking about in the second EB: Which we will also be talking about in the second part of the episode… Well, the Libreria Marco Polo, in its current form, form, SR: Well, the Libreria Marco Polo, in its current three of its started in 2015, in September 2015, when being Claudio partners came together, those partners Currently Moretti, Flavio Biz, and me, Sabina Rizzardi. Polo bookshops: there are actually two Libreria Marco on the one in Campo Santa Margherita and another for the recipe… Giudecca island. As for the ingredients it will come as The most important ingredient, maybe a place, as Venice no surprise, is definitely Venice. relationships, as a context, in it’s quality of life and of this city, and these are truly unique characteristics any other. I think I can safely say, it’s different from fact that we Another very important ingredient is the people that we have always tried to reach out to the the Venice,” like to call “the various inhabitants of their whole lives, people who have chosen to live here the people who live here for a few years, like students and professionals, and also the people who decide to live here for a couple of days, that is to say travellers. I think is absolutely undeniable, The bond with Venice of the unity involved in the “No Grandi Navi” (No Big Ships) movement, but also among the other various collaborations that are formed in the city. Just think about the collaborative efforts involving the theatre of Palazzo Grassi, at the universities, for example the “Incroci di Civiltà” (Crossroads of Civilisations) festival at Ca’ Foscari University… I hope that the journey with us aboard Nowtilus us aboard Nowtilus the journey with EB: I hope that places and through some enjoyable will take you which Polo bookshop, The Libreria Marco sensations. a place you, is when we were introducing I mentioned almost all Venetians, perhaps Venetians, that many maybe it’s not as familiar to people know well, though so let’s talk a little bit about who aren’t from Venice, in recent years has cemented itself it. It’s a place that example of how to open and not just as a virtuous at a time when bookshops run a bookshop today, industry are facing difficult and the whole publishing said that opening a bookshop challenges - it’s often - but it’s also an example of how isn’t a simple matter a cultural point of reference a bookshop can become I’ll ask you, Sabina Rizzardi, for a city. And so now about, and what how did the Libreria Marco Polo come are the ingredients for this winning recipe? Thank you for taking me for a for a taking me you for (SR): Thank Rizzardi Sabina Nowtilus. ride, OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 5 26 Which is also the message that we try to we try to that the message is also EB: Which Any other episodes. through our communicate recommendations? is I should give you suggestion that SR: Right, another recently writer, which only by a technical another book Secolo is “Venezia the title of the book came out, It was written Century Twentyone”). (“Venice Ventuno” and it was released by Anteferma by Sergio Pascolo Secolo to to tell you that “Venezia Edizioni. I’m happy was completely “made in is a book that Ventuno” University, at the IUAV Originally conceived Venice.” and was even printed in Venice it was published in I really liked it because by Grafiche Veneziane. Venice what it is, at least in my opinion, for it presents Venice city. It’s a city that is already and that is a very modern eco-socially prepared, it’s prepared for the future, other metropolises around a city that’s inspiring and time into the world which are investing money high quality of changing and becoming a city with a Another important notion is the life like that of Venice. as a city of water, we can’t emphasis placed on Venice and obvious forget that, as it’s the most important only dictates characteristic of this city, because it not the list of all the all of its qualities and merits, but also subjected to. risks that a city of water is constantly book to give If you like I can read a passage from the you an idea of what it’s like. EB: With pleasure. SR: “If we look at the situation from the right by the perspective, clearing the mental fog induced that Venice disastrous current conditions, we recognise heritage is right in the middle of Europe, it’s a world institutional site, it’s a part of the world in not just an of urban spaces. sense, it’s a unique jewel in the history The lagoon and its territory are a natural and scenic wonder situated between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dolomites; it’s a port city on the Adriatic at the western end of the Silk Road, it’s a metropolitan city of 260 thousand inhabitants, capital of a region of eminent productivity and manufacturing, the city itself a centre of artisan traditions, a hotbed for art of global significance, a city of theatre, of cinema, a great university city.” And here is the fateful question: “But how is it possible that a city like this is in a state of crisis, suffocated by tourists, polluted, flooded, suffering from depopulation, dying? How is it possible that we accept this and that we stand by and cynically watch this happening, or even plan for this eventuality?” There you have it, you get an idea of what it’s about more or less… EB: Well, it’s something we understand all too well, because during these events we’re trying to deal in various ways with some of these issues, issues that are coming at us from every direction, some of these same themes and problems that you read aloud to us - well done, by the way - from Sergio Pascolo’s book. So, you were also saying something about the relationship with the sea, and the relationship with the sea and our I absolutely cannot neglect the timeless “Venezia “Venezia SR: I absolutely cannot neglect the timeless is a fish”) by Tiziano Scarpa, è un pesce” (“Venice published by Feltrinelli; I was happy to see that Tiziano Scarpa was a guest on one of your previous episodes of Nowtilus, and I’ll pick up on his discussion, when are the ones he said that the best books about Venice by technical writers. I’m very much in agreement with Tiziano Scarpa on the subject of seeing and observing the city, and of it being a vision for a city of the future. è una città: On that point I can’t not mention “Venezia is a city: come è stata costruita e come vive” (“Venice how it was built and how it lives”) by Franco Mancuso, publisher, published by Corte del Fontego, a Venetian which has never been surpassed in its architectural and urbanistic analysis of the city. I’d also like to is the suggest a book for children, in which Venice (“A main character, called “Un sogno a Venezia” by by Štepán Zavrel, published Dream in Venice”) a classic that is Bohem Press. “Un sogno a Venezia” has endured the test of time, and every time it brings a smile to the faces of its readers both young and old; it’s an illustrated book. So what’s “Un sogno a finds Venice about? A child wakes up and Venezia” has been flooded by water. The thing that I like about this book is that it has a message for us, the idea that of. needs to be taken constant care Venice There you go, that’s what I wanted to ask you. If ask you. If EB: There you go, that’s what I wanted to or three books you were to suggest one, or even two - maybe focussing on one afterwards so on Venice - which that you can explain it in a bit more detail would you choose? Within the bookshops we have a selection of of SR: Within the bookshops we have a selection that share characteristics we like, we books on Venice some extent. If prefer books that try to read the city to you like I can quickly name two or three… And so now we suggest that our listeners that our listeners EB: And so now we suggest to make notes of some take a pen and paper I get the impression that recommendations because more, and I’ll certainly be asking we’ll be getting a few one was “Marco Polo” by Sklovskij, for some. This first We have talked about travel, published by Quodlibet. itself, but as for Venice and the travels of a Venetian, programme, and bearing in mind the themes of our the sea, and sustainability, if you those being Venice, what would it be? were to suggest a book on Venice For starters do you have books on Venice? (‘Laughs’) Well, I’d say… Marco Polo, you know… know… Polo, you Marco I’d say… Well, SR: (‘Laughs’) really about something tell you actually I’ll Well and a beautiful recommend and often We sell great. Polo, called “Marco book about Marco engaging of the is a Russian author Sklovskij Polo” by Sklovskij. to write, or rewrite, century who decided early 20th in English as “The of “Il Milione” (known a version it more Polo, making Marco Polo”) by Marco Travels of to modern audiences, engaging and understandable we really recommend, and we and so it’s a title that all read it too. really recommend you OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 5 27 listeners hanging and curious to find out more about about find out more to and curious hanging listeners happily could saying, we As I was Drunk”. “Shark we now unfortunately but much longer, to you for listen can’t let you go without farewell. But we have to say we of Nowtilus, that the ritual question asking you place them about the our guests, we ask always ask in holds a special place situation that or the Venetian from you’re not originally Sabina Rizzardi, their hearts. have you been living here, if you but how long Venice, don’t mind me asking? five years now. SR: For a good twenty So, very a Venetian. EB: So by now you’re effectively place that’s close to your heart, quickly, what is the Sabina Rizzardi? that the place that’s SR: I can say with certainty delle Zattere. closest to my heart is the Fondamenta can see the Why? Because it’s a place where you to go there and horizon, I like to go there with my dog, shining at the read. I like to say that the sun is always actually it’s Zattere, and it’s always springtime, and of the always nice to go for a walk there regardless almost every season. As I say, I go there all the time, invite you to go day if the weather allows it, and I also for a stroll there too. Polo, thank EB: Sabina Rizzardi, from Libreria Marco and very you for joining us, you’ve been very kind Thank you so generous with your recommendations. much, and see you soon! SR: Thank you! Piange” “Venezia Musical interlude - Giovanni Dinello, Cries”) (2015) (“Venice EB: So we’ve said goodbye to Sabina Rizzardi and now we’ll be welcoming Shaul Bassi aboard Nowtilus, someone who plays many roles in the field context, culture, not only in an academic of Venetian who we’ll say culture in general, and but in Venetian welcome to now. A lecturer in English literature and co-founder of the “Incroci di Civiltà” (Crossroads of - Casa Civilisations) Festival, president of Beit Venezia della Cultura Ebraica (House of Jewish Culture) and director of the International Center for the Humanities and Social Change at Ca’ Foscari, and in recent years someone who has been very active in the areas of sustainability and the relationship between literature, society and the environment, in other words the themes that we here at Nowtilus are particularly interested in. Welcome Shaul Bassi! Shaul Bassi (SB): Hello everyone and thanks for having me. EB: Thank you for coming. We just listed a lot of activities. Let’s try to talk a little about something that came about from these activities, and then I’ll let And with this “click” we’ll have to leave our EB: And with this “click” we’ll have to leave our “It took three and a half billion years from the SR: “It took three and a half billion years from the moment the first primitive life forms appeared in the sea to when I got that phone call from Hugo, a Saturday night in late July, while I was at a lively dinner in the centre of Oslo. “Have you seen the forecast for next week?” is all he asked me. For some time we had been waiting for just the right weather conditions, not sunshine or heat, and not even the absence of rain, what we needed was as little wind as possible on that stretch of sea between Bodo and Lofoten. As soon as I heard Hugo’s voice, a man who hates using the phone, and calls only to deliver important messages, I understood that the forecast was finally just right. “I’ll buy the ticket tomorrow, I’ll land in Bodo on Monday afternoon,” I told him. “Good, see you.” Click.” There you go. Yes, yes, read us the beginning! We would sit here EB: Yes, yes, read us the beginning! We would sit here and listen to you for hours and hours, but unfortunately time flies and we are approaching the end of the first part, but now at this stage we have to find out more about this Greenland shark. Great, well let’s move from Venice, the city of the city of from Venice, SR: Great, well let’s move water that’s a little bit bigger, water, to a body of And incidentally, it’s a the seas and the oceans. for Nowtilus, given that it’s title great choice of book (“The book of the sea”, titled is “Il libro del mare” “Shark Drunk” is written “Shark Drunk” in English). and writer called Morten by a Norwegian journalist and published by Iperborea, a A. Strøksnes, edited deals with Northern European publishing house that “Shark Drunk” about? The literature. So, what’s friend called Norwegian, Strøksnes, and his artist this Hugo - it’s a true story - immerse us into lots of twists kaleidoscopic, entertaining account, with set at sea. and turns, of a natural and cultural story call - I’ll It’s a travel book that begins with a phone what do this read you the first page of the book - and some time pair, Morten and Hugo, want to do? For into motion with they’ve had this ambition that they set go and catch a careful plan, and that ambition is to had an idea of a Greenland shark. Now, in my head I the book what this creature might be like, but reading is one of the I discovered that the Greenland shark in the world. biggest and most dangerous animals just to give The pair think about going in a canoe, I’ll leave it to you an idea of the tone of this journey. managed to you to discover whether our two heroes I’ll read you the catch the Greenland shark. As I said, opening if you like. oceans is another one of main themes that we turn our turn our that we main themes one of is another oceans activities through the and also Nowtilus, to on attention to intrigue continuing as you’re Seeing Space. of Ocean ask you this point I’d like to suggestions, at us with these there sell and recommend, the books that you if, among you and the oceans that deal with the sea are any that to tell us about? might want OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 5 28 So, of all the famous and not-so-famous writers writers not-so-famous famous and all the EB: So, of right paths and crossed and gone, come that have other, so than any more one of them, in Venice, here on climate change about and reflected has written too, someone who mixing in Venice and migration, the a long time, and that’s here among us for has been Would you mind telling Amitav Ghosh. Indian writer and between Ghosh about the relationship us a little come of this experience? and what has Venice, Ghosh is emblematic, SB: The story of Amitav - he was on the jury for the because in recent times Lido in 2000 I believe - he came Film Festival on the times, and these three occasions three through Venice for our thoughts and ideas. were important milestones “Incroci di Civiltà”, when he was In 2014 he attended in which he had been invited taking part in a residency the Ghetto, the importance of the to talk a little about Ghetto as a location in the city, which has Venetian He returned become a metaphor all around the world. for the in 2017 for the inauguration of our Center which Humanities and Social Change, for a conference explored the was very important for us, in which he change. relationship between literature and climate his novel And he came back again last year to present he brings “L’isola dei fucili” (“Gun Island”), in which Venetian together the Ghetto, which is one of the extraordinary places that the book is set within, the it affects theme of the environmental crisis, how and how environmental matters a city like Venice, migration. are inextricably linked to issues around his time Because Amitav Ghosh discovered during that the largest community of migrants that in Venice are of Bangladeshi origin, live and work in Venice as he does, who happen to speak the same language discovered that Bengalese, as he is from Calcutta. He a country, many of these people had to escape from Bangladesh, which is more and more frequently subjected to flooding, only to arrive in a city that now accommodates them, but where flooding is always an impending threat, albeit on a smaller scale, at least for now. And so this extraordinary book, which we absolutely recommend, really is sort of the sum of everything that literature can do, namely helping us to understand climate change, not just as abstract atmospheric conditions, but through its repercussions in a in everyday life, while also writing about Venice very original way, on a global level. EB: In another book that probably links back to the conference you were talking about before, Ghosh reflects on the fact that the thinking around climate change was for a long time, and still is, mostly absent in novels and the work of writers. What do you think about this assessment, and do you agree with Ghosh’s view in identifying this big gap, which he defines as “The great blindness,” this lack, this idea of neglecting something even though it’s such a big issue that is affecting all of our lives? SB: I definitely agree with his assessment, especially You’ll remember that those years were dominated dominated SB: You’ll remember that those years were from by the rhetoric of the “Clash of Civilisations” an infamous book by Samuel Huntingdon, which especially after 9/11 claimed that civilisations weren’t talking to one another, that they were destined to in particular, and Ca’ Foscari collide. Since Venice, are testimony to the contrary, the idea to call it “Crossroads of Civilisations” came to mind. We went on to propose a collaboration between Ca’ Foscari with the then- Municipality, and talking and the Venice councillor Luana Zanella, to whom we owe a great deal, and with Gianfranco Bettin, it was literally a slip of the tongue in which Gianfranco Bettin said: “Yes, then there’s this idea of Crossroads of Civilisations…” And I said, “You know what? It’s supposed to be ‘encounters’ (“incontri”), but ‘crossroads’ (“incroci”) is much more effective.” So the short version is that this meeting gave us “Crossroads of Civilisations”, as a spin-off of an academic conference in 2008, and in 2009 it became its own thing and converged with many local organisations, not just the Municipality. And I must say that after all this time, it’s really moving Venetian and to see how the writers love Venice readers, and how the readers respond with such enthusiasm to these writers, both famous and not-so- famous, who come from all over the world. What a scoop! It makes us very happy when we when we EB: What a scoop! It makes us very happy get the scoop on something! Well, “Incroci di Civiltà” started in 2008, so this started in 2008, so this SB: Well, “Incroci di Civiltà” the thirteenth edition, we’ve year would have been a half” just because it’s been called it “twelve and I’m pleased to hear that Sabina an unusual year, and it, because since the very Rizzardi talked about with bookshops has been beginning a relationship and qualifying reasons behind this one of the recurring came about almost by chance. literary festival that landscape Many authors, many writers from the through Ca’ of international literature have flowed had always lacked Foscari for many years, but Venice there had a true literary festival. In previous years by been the wonderful experience of “Fondamenta” cultural Daniele Del Giudice, which was a broader celebrated festival, but something that specifically of civilisations, literature, and literature as a meeting share an was still missing. Incidentally, If I may di Civiltà” is overlooked anecdote, the name “Incroci by Gianfranco actually taken from a slip of the tongue with Nowtilus! Bettin… a revelation that I now share (‘laughing’) you explain… I don’t know, where shall we begin? begin? shall we where don’t know, I you explain… was also that something di Civiltà”, “Incroci Perhaps episode, part of the in the first our guest by mentioned one about “Incroci” as who talked Sabina Rizzardi, between the various of collaboration of the moments years the city. How many organisations in groups and of now, and what sort been going for has “Incroci” as a have come about and reflections relationships festival? result of this original OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 5 29 degrees in a broad range of subjects, so we aim it aim it so we of subjects, range in a broad degrees but languages, literature, in history, graduates towards big, big challenge. it’s a economics, in biology, also also a deliberate and this was It’s all in English, to not degree, so as make it an international choice, to from of students create a community only potentially help Italian students world, but also to all over the within these areas prepared for working to be more global job market. In essence the in a European and the environment at the centre degree is about placing it from not only a scientific of thinking and studying an economic and legal point point of view, but also all from a humanistic point of of view, and above means that our students will view. Ultimately this - and I think this is quite find themselves studying unique than rare - chemistry and rare, perhaps more and philosophy, or as an biology alongside literature specific courses, Buddhism and example of one the Environmental a Methodological Introduction to the great effort Humanities. This obviously requires a doesn’t from everyone; our biology course definitely done three assume that the students have already have already years of biology, or that vice versa they and so it will done three years of Hegel and Plato, but also very much be an interdisciplinary experiment, big problems a necessary effort, because one of the towards felt by Ghosh is that the segmented attitude that it environmental issues is one of the reasons So, if I doesn’t succeed in changing our imagination. efforts, it’s that were to summarise the idea behind our to contribute we want to change people’s imagination, between to changing the perception of the relationship to act upon human beings and the environment, and if things don’t this in order enact real change, because will sink, and the change in the next ten years, Venice world in general will become inhospitable. EB: So, what type of figure or figures, I imagine there are many, do you hope that the course will help to shape? Maybe one student isn’t very good at biology, so they’ll suffer a little on that front (‘laughing’), but maybe they’re stronger in other things or vice versa, in the end what sort of opportunities will they come out with? SB: This is a crucial question. The first answer that I feel compelled to respond with is that if the university only promised existing professional opportunities, it would be lying and be failing in its role, in the sense that the university can’t just represent a snapshot of the job market, or merely chase it, it must also anticipate it. When the university has attempted to follow the job market in the past, the job market has simply moved more quickly. So on the one hand we maintain that today there are already professional figures, like environmental educators, cultural mediators or environmental consultants, who aren’t yet registered as such in Istat statistics, but who are figures that are increasingly in demand. Recently the Ministry of Scientific Research and Education highlighted the importance of environmental education Well, the Environmental Humanities is an SB: Well, the Environmental Humanities is an interdisciplinary field, which indeed brings together many different disciplines. It’s existed for some time in English-speaking countries, in Northern European countries, in Germany, as a recognised area of study. In Italy there had been a few experiments, and we decided to repeat the pioneering effort that my colleagues in environmental sciences undertook thirty years ago, creating the first Italian degree in Environmental Sciences, and to repeat this at Ca’ Foscari by creating the first master’s degree in Environmental Humanities. This means that it’s a second level degree, aimed at students who have This degree, Environmental Humanities, which EB: This degree, Environmental Humanities, which just recently started and which as you will no doubt explain is known as “Scienze Umane e Ambientali” in Italian, is a degree that really explores the role that the humanities are called upon to carry out in the global challenge facing the environment, and in the creation of a ecological awareness. Can you tell us a little more about this course? How is it structured, who is it aimed towards? We’re very intrigued… with the part that represents something of a a of something represents the part that with the he says that novelist, a great As provocation. of humanity great history is the of the novel history of its own individual its own subjectivity, recounting a genre that’s incapable it’s also life, but paradoxically change which humanity the extent of climate of relating really last two centuries, provoked over the itself has scientists and scholars the era known by ushering in And yet it’s also true that - and as the Anthropocene. this with “Gun Island” Ghosh himself demonstrated for an emotional and - that we require literature allowing us to get closer to cognitive point of view, scientific data, which of course the facts, not just as in order to understand them in a is fundamental, but himself recognises that certain human context. Ghosh of science fiction have dealt apocalyptic genres but he also says that these with these phenomena, timescales of millions of years, phenomena occur on more suited and so, I don’t know, maybe an epic is events, to tell their story. They’re full of improbable things, and so this novel too is full of improbable love to read, while serious novels, the ones that we and are novels that concentrate on more realistic What is probable things, so it’s a work in progress. of his analysis certain, however - and this is the point that we that we fully embrace, and it’s no coincidence - is that the have built a master’s degree around this must confront world of humanistic culture absolutely issues, but and deal with this issue, not like any other others, and so as the big question that affects all the in there’s this passage from “The Great Blindness” scholars and which he imagines that in twenty years thirty years humanists of the future will say: “twenty, concerned about ago, why wasn’t absolutely everyone and listen this?” And so our response was to welcome degree in to Ghosh, and to create the first Italian Foscari. Environmental Humanities here at Ca’ OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 5 30 back to Amitav Ghosh’s novel, is the Venetian Ghetto, Ghetto, the Venetian novel, is Ghosh’s to Amitav back to my family’s is linked place that it’s a because as an my memories history, personal my own history, a But it’s also and as part of a community. individual for me, because holds great importance place that a by Venetians, that’s still inhabited it’s somewhere to to the world, thanks shows that it is open place that to that open their doors and institutions the museums the world, yet it’s still a place people from all around by residents and by children playing that’s truly lived in a place that has become a global outside. And it’s also people only identify the word and metaphor. Alas many “ghetto” as a place of segregation, the metaphor of the it was also a place where but over the centuries despite the restrictions and many ideas were born, then went on to spread around limitations, ideas that precisely because it’s somewhere the world. I love it of pain, of segregation, but also that carries memories also precisely of community and creativity, which is can offer today in facing the challenges what Venice brought about by climate change. us EB: And so thank you to Shaul Bassi for joining Environmental today, we wish him good luck with the and thanks Humanities course that’s now underway, for being with us today. SB: Thank you! who we EB: And thanks again to Sabina Rizzardi and thanks spoke to in the first part of this episode, you have been also to Giovanni Dinello whose music from “Venezia listening to in the form of some excerpts soundscapes piange”, a piece made with underwater to all of you and a string ensemble. As always thanks from Ocean for listening to TBA21- Academy Radio the fifth episode of “Nowtilus. Stories Space, Venice, from an urban lagoon in the 21st century”, a podcast curated by Enrico Bettinello and Alice Ongaro Sartori, in collaboration with Graziano Meneghin for post- production. You can listen to this episode, and both previous and future episodes of Nowtilus on ocean- archive.org or follow us on Soundcloud. A warm farewell to all of you from Enrico Bettinello. The place that’s closest to my heart is, going SB: The place that’s closest to my heart is, going So, Venice is also the city where you were is also the city where you were EB: So, Venice born and where you live, so you will definitely have somewhere close to your heart here, and as a ritual we ask our guests to tell us about these places, so now I turn the question over to you for the last part of to your heart, is close our chat. Which place in Venice Shaul Bassi? Absolutely, we think that Venice is the ideal place is the ideal place SB: Absolutely, we think that Venice to host this degree in Environmental Humanities, climate change, because it’s both a place where, alas, rising sea levels are really recorded and experienced on a daily basis, and it’s also a place that has a long tradition of creative reinterpretation between human created wasn’t beings and the environment. Venice all at once with the waving of a magician’s wand, as a famous romantic poet once said, but it was born through a gradual technological process and a balanced relationship between human communities and the environment, something that in the last century is a has been put under quite some strain… Venice the place is also crossroads of civilisations, Venice in which our students will have tens of potential institutions where they could do internships, where they could practice, one of which being Ocean Space. And will the fact that this master’s degree EB: And will the fact that this master’s degree mean that its programme is based in Venice as a living participants will examine and utilise Venice laboratory for what they study? as something that will be fundamental in the future future in the fundamental will be that as something public institutions, Cultural schools. levels in for all people need all increasingly will NGOs institutions, solid who have a about the environment, who know understand rising foundation, who really scientific who global warming, but CO2 emissions, sea levels, into scientific data how to translate this also know Museums, organisations And so in cultural practices. both formally and informally, we that offer education have so-called “green jobs,” believe that those who like because as an anglicist I a term that I don’t really at random, but anyway, I think don’t like to use English that science and art… And that it’s really important we’re talking here in a space it’s not by chance that Space, which is a shining example provided by Ocean attitude and approach. By that of this interdisciplinary which our degree will begin to I mean Ocean Space, with, is a place in which have a fruitful collaboration are science, art and culture meet, which incidentally is internationally three of the aspects for which Venice one of the recognised. I’d like to add a joke if I may, talk about reasons why I don’t like that people only they talk “green jobs” or the “green economy” when Space helps about the environment, is that Ocean blue, not green; remind us that the majority of nature is talk more and so even within the humanities people for us too this more about the “Blue Humanities,” so very important. aquatic and marine angle will be very, NOWTILUS EPISODE 6 31 iTunes and Google Podcasts. first of all, with great pleasure, we’ll say welcome to first of all, with great pleasure, we’ll say welcome to Michele Savorgnano, welcome! Michele Savorgnano (MS): Thank you! EB: So, Michele Savorgnano, I obviously introduced you as someone who deals with social permaculture; in reality your work is wide-reaching and very interesting, and perhaps you’ll be telling us a little more about it. You’re a citizen who - and I’ll leave the burden of recounting your biography to you - a number years ago, decided to leave your stable full-time job in order to deal with green spaces in the city, social agriculture and permaculture. Michele Savorgnano, let’s start by clarifying the terminology for our listeners, what is permaculture? MS: Ah, permaculture… Lots of people think that permaculture is a type of organic farming. In reality, it’s Spotify, SoundCloud,

You are listening to “Nowtilus. Enrico Bettinello (EB): You are listening to “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century”, a Bettinello Enrico podcast by Ocean Space, Venice. is here to welcome you, or welcome you back, aboard Nowtilus, stories, thoughts, notes, and issues In our today. concerning the rethinking of Venice 6th episode of Nowtilus we’ll be talking about urban green spaces, trees, vegetable gardens, plants, and spaces and ideas relating to the theme of cultivating the city. We’ll be doing this together with Michele Savorgnano, who for years has been working with permaculture and social agriculture, and whom we are about to welcome aboard, and in the second part of the episode, we’ll be talking to Lorenzo Basadonna Scarpa, a photographer and part of the Ortofoto project, which he’ll be telling us about later. As I said, we’ll be taking one step at a time, and TBA21—Academy Radio

Available from July 3rd 2020, 4pm TBA21-Academy Radio on Ocean Archive, THE CITY Urbana Diffusa) with Michele Savorgnano (Fattoria (Ortofoto) and Lorenzo Basadonna Scarpa CULTIVATE CULTIVATE Episode 6 OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 6 32 There have been some other projects similar to to similar other projects some have been MS: There interest, shown some have schools for example, ours, various school our experiences, through and so from up, starting right gardens have sprung vegetable to a university garden all the way up kindergarten, there still hasn’t in Mestre. However, on Via Torino rethinking of the real planning or a real been any the city. Public greenery of green spaces in potential gets used by people, used is categorized as whatever there are private green spaces, for going for a walk, between them and citizens, but there’s no interaction for citizens to cultivate, to and therefore no possibility live green, to feel like an active plan, to redesign, to part of this green citizenship. kinds of spaces have you EB: In recent years, what as public greenery? Because managed to identify resident wouldn’t think about them, maybe an average look at them, couldn’t imagine them, or wouldn’t even could easily but are there places around the city that green be converted and identified as new public spaces? MS: Well, a couple of years ago, I was asked to participate in a project with WPI, Worcester university Polytechnic Institute, which is an American group of in Massachusetts, I coordinated a working all the green around ten students, and we mapped types of areas of the city. We classified all the green space, greenery: private green space, public in good municipal heritage, utilised or less-utilised, survey - which condition or in bad condition. And this as incidentally is also available online, accessible www.fud. one of our sub-projects on our website, and we email - takes the form of an interactive map, opportunities. discovered that there are some great spaces, There are many abandoned or unused enormous ones too, like the former Italgas premises near Piazzale Roma, and many spaces especially on the Giudecca, where I live. The Giudecca could be thought of as the green island, there are incredible spaces like the former Giardino Eden, which became Hundertwasser, and which is closed to the public. It’s more than a hectare of land, closed and boarded up, and it’s not even possible to see a space like that. EB: So are they predominantly private spaces, or are they public spaces too, spaces that the public could make available to people if they were interested? MS: The public could very easily make them available, it’s just a question of good will, and the appetite from the municipal and state authorities. One example, again on the Giudecca, is be the former prison, which also has at least another hectare of land bordering the Hundertwasser villa, Villa Herion, on the Giudecca, which is owned by the municipality and has been closed for years now, and a whole series of small, medium and large spaces, but as I was saying, there just isn’t the appetite for this sort of thing. In these fifteen years, or in more recent years, EB: In these fifteen years, or in more recent years, compared to when you started, how do you think the green urban environment has evolved in our city? Do you think there’s more awareness? Has the work that you started received any feedback? If so, who has it come from? In short, how have green spaces evolved in recent years? in Venice MS: For at least fifteen years. How many years have you been working with EB: How many years have you been working with for, exactly? urban greenery in Venice Ah well… This association exists because a MS: Ah well… This association exists because a vegetable garden is considered as something “extra”. What do most people do? They live and work, and then in free time they tend to their gardens, so it’s considered as ancillary to their daily lives. On the other hand, there are many examples around the world of urban gardens that have been cultivated by families, by communities, for centuries. But beyond the vegetable gardens, it’s a way of being involved in public green spaces, and therefore our own land, and a way of cultivating and allowing our cities to live. So, normally we associate the idea of a vegetable a vegetable EB: So, normally we associate the idea of that are in some garden, especially vegetable gardens with older way subsidised or supported by the public, think there’s this people, with pensioners. Why do you association? For me it was out of necessity, I see it as a necessity, I see it as a MS: For me it was out of is ostensibly a place Venice necessity. Because a city that we could consider without greenery, it’s the greenery is hidden, it’s almost oriental, in which walls - what is known as “hortus a greenery behind it’s a greenery that remains conclusus” - and so with public green spaces in unseen. It wasn’t designed cases during the 19th century, but mind, except in rare their own green greenery is coveted. People who lack to go and find spaces don’t see them, and are forced other people them. And in my case, along with some vegetable I came up with the idea of a collective together we garden, a social vegetable garden, and some, and began looking for land, eventually finding farming. Our we started on our adventure in urban ago, originally experience began around fifteen years (Green Spaces), but it no longer called “Spazi Verdi” was one of the exists, it has evolved over time, but it gardens in first examples of urban collective vegetable Italy. What led you to start thinking about green spaces, about green spaces, you to start thinking EB: What led in particular? in Venice much broader than that; it’s a system for design based based for design it’s a system than that; broader much design, of comprehensive a kind elements, on natural from the inspiration that take of systems design so the be that can then and natural systems, natural world But even social systems. green spaces, and applied to as the starting point. natural systems always using OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 6 33 doctor, every pharmacist, had their own little botanical botanical own little had their every pharmacist, doctor, of all crossroads the was of course - Venice garden a so it was too, and seeds even plant of goods, kinds botanical garden closed plants. The last paradise for sort no trace of any ago, and there’s almost a century with plants. of experimentation you. In the last interesting, thank EB: That’s very we were talking with Shaul episode of Nowtilus, and he told us about this Bassi, professor Bassi, degree course at Ca’ project, this new master’s in Environmental Humanities. Foscari University, project, we noticed that you’re Looking through the you tell us about your involvement also involved. Could Ca’ Foscari? with the project at permaculture is MS: I got involved because What do I mean by fundamentally experiential. the practice, that? The theory is not detached from to be proven there’s always practice. Everything has in Italy, empirically. Often at universities, especially practice comes everything is based on theory and the students find later once you’ve finished university, and a question themselves unprepared. In our case, it’s know whether of creating a sort of center, we don’t experimental it would be a single place or multiple with cultivation, places spread around the city, dealing of places, caring not in the broad sense, in taking care plants, and for the soil, planting flowers and other above all so on, but rather to care for a place means an opportunity letting it care for itself, giving students or to create. For example, courses for children suited to cultural working on designing places that are and allowing and artistic activities, playing with nature in our lives. nature to become ever more prevalent within EB: So do you think that a greater awareness our city, and a greater enthusiasm for this opportunity to cultivate the city, can help the city to have greater autonomy? By that I don’t mean complete self- sufficiency in food production, but an awareness of our own resources, a renewed relationship with nature and our own environment? MS: Look, during the time of the Serenissima, there were registers that are now held in the State Archive, which anyone can go and look at, and from those what understood exactly registers the Venetians came in and went out of the city every day, what was cultivated and in what quantities, and therefore they precisely understood the yearly, and even daily, demand for their population. We, on the other hand, have our lagoon - and this is also within our mapping - a whole series of fields, and by cultivation I mean both land and water, more than 90 percent of our urban space is water. With this space we have the opportunity to cultivate many things, and above all plan and design and think for example, really starting with the weaker links in the chain. Starting to grow, for example, for school cafeterias, for the hospitals, for the people who need healthy food with low associated So, flowers and plants… You need to be very MS: So, flowers and plants… You need to be very careful, because growing plants in the city means that you’ll be tending a garden surrounded by palaces. So even if you have a south-facing garden, it’s often as though it were north-facing. You either have the shade from these palaces, or the wind that blows between them, which cools down the soil. Or on the other hand there are many people who grow plants on their roof terraces, and it’s hard to do so up on those terraces. I’m conducting a study, I’m trying out various plants, to avoid using the typical ones that you often see around that are like pittosporum, oleander, plants Venice, somewhat “undervalued”, that everyone has in their gardens and we can do some interesting experiments were more than there with this. In 16th-century Venice 500 botanical gardens. Every spice merchant, every Ah! A truly pioneering moment in farming! What EB: Ah! A truly pioneering moment in farming! What about flowers and other plants? Well, if we understand Venice as the Venetian as the Venetian Venice MS: Well, if we understand it’s a very difficult of Venice, Lagoon, the islands seen especially in the last two landscape, as we have flooding that has taken place. years with the deadly some vegetable gardens on I, for example, cultivate also help some older people to the Giudecca and I and I do so by implementing a cultivate these gardens, say a synergetic system, in which unique system, let’s each other. the plants are mixed together and help gardens, which This year I realized that my neighbours’ as many are cultivated in the “classic” way, removing that they’re weeds as possible, keeping only the plants white with interested in, well, the land is completely other hand, salt, which rises to the surface. On the autonomously in my gardens, where the plants have and it has been extracted the salt through their roots the leaves brought to the surface, you can see that reacting to are white with salt, but the soil is also plants that a very unique, very extreme stress. The resistance to survive are the ones that have a high halophytes as salinity, so all the halophilic plants, or and the they’re called, so they’re resistant to saltiness, are all similar, plants that we cultivate in our gardens family - cabbages and cauliflowers - so the brassica beginning of the and other plants like potatoes. At the was already 19th century, the potato was a plant that but it wasn’t well-known after arriving from America, used all that much; the Austrians experimented with the potato right on the Giudecca in Campo Marte, and this was where the first experiments with potatoes took place in Italy. So, Savorgnano, the the Venetian environment is is environment the the Venetian EB: So, Savorgnano, point natural and climatic speaking from a very unique, crops experience, which your many years of of view. In which say, to Venice, are best suited, let’s and plants other and which on the successfully, can be cultivated well in the lagoon environment? hand don’t fare so Musical interlude - Riccardo Sellan, “Écouter le le “Écouter Sellan, - Riccardo interlude Musical (2017) monde” OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 6 34 the middle of June to make up for time lost during the during the time lost up for to make of June the middle the months for planned it was originally as lockdown, Lorenzo welcome to visit. So it was impossible when Scarpa! Basadonna good (LBS): Thank you, Scarpa Lorenzo Basadonna everyone. morning to too. “Ortofoto”, this project EB: Good morning to you what’s it about and how did it with a composite name, start? that started in summer LBS: “Ortofoto” is a project an idea that I had together 2019, beginning with Luum collective, made up of with the Maps on the and Lucrezia Lamera, an idea to Giovanni dal Sasso a census of the trees in the public document and take starting with the historical green spaces of Venice, parts, one part centre. It’s a project composed of two of the concerning pure photography documentation which trees, and another part that’s more topographic, create a sort Giovanni and Lucrezia have curated, to have been of index and survey of all the places that documented in the project. which EB: So, let’s talk about trees and green spaces, understood is the main focus of our episode. If I’ve trees, or trees correctly, we’re talking about individual at the Giardini that form pinewoods or areas, like those are richer with or on the island of Sant’Elena, which of the city. visible trees when compared to the rest trees LBS: The criteria we selected included solitary the “campos”, or individual rows that can be found in the alleyways along the canalside promenades or in the public green of the city. We excluded the parks or in the city, spaces that are generally recognised precisely because we wanted to place a particular focus on these aspects of greenery, these trees that grow between of paving slabs, in the middle of the stone of the city, like elements of nature that manage to grow and live in a context that is ostensibly completely in contrast with their existence. EB: Well, in reality the perception that people have of with gardens which is actually a city that’s rich Venice, - we were even talking about this with our previous guest - gardens that are perhaps closed to the public, unseen by the people who pass by, there’s the impression that there aren’t many trees around. But on the contrary, how many have you managed to survey or identify in your project? LBS: In the last stage of documentation that we conducted, which includes only the historical city and for the moment doesn’t include the Giudecca or the other islands, we’ve counted more than 250, many more than we expected. The geoportal of the Venice Municipality was extremely useful in creating our census, as every plant-related feature is recorded in the land register with extreme precision. We expected We’ve said goodbye to Michele Savorgnano, EB: We’ve said goodbye to Michele Savorgnano, and now we’ll be welcoming Lorenzo Basadonna Scarpa aboard Nowtilus, photographer and part of the “Ortofoto” project, which was exhibited at the a.topos gallery a small but very interesting gallery in Venice, in the Arsenale area. This project was exhibited until Musical interlude - Riccardo Sellan, “Écouter le Musical interlude - Riccardo Sellan, “Écouter le monde” (2017) MS: Thank you. It brings a smile to our faces too and we’re happy EB: It brings a smile to our faces too and we’re happy that you were able to join us as a guest on Nowtilus. Thank you to Michele Savorgnano and good luck with your hard work in cultivating the city, it’s something that we really need. Thank you Michele Savorgnano! Well, the place that’s close to my heart is close to my heart is MS: Well, the place that’s important to me, since it’s somewhere that’s very door and the windows of my my home: it’s my front to the Giudecca, to Campo house. I recently moved meters from San Cosmo, and right in front, just a few scene, my house, there was a particularly colourful of some dog- because we’re all familiar with the habit plastic owners, leaving these lovely multi-colored our walks. In bags all over the place to brighten up we say that seeing this disaster - in permaculture started to create everything starts at your front door - I municipality’s a little flowerbed. I even applied to the a year ago - I “adopt a flowerbed” scheme more than talking to you, still haven’t received a response, I’m Environment Mr. Mayor and the administrators at the on the place, Office - and so I started to put my mark And so I sowed some seeds, just some little seeds. had already a flowerbed was born. My neighbors but also used started to tend to this “campo” (field, and it’s one of as the word for a piazza in Venice), some grass. the few true “campos” as it actually has children in the Two weeks ago, together with all the and our “campo” “campo” we tilled another flowerbed, is blooming even more. I’ve noticed that in a short amount of time, when you start to take care of a place, people start to respect it, and even the harshest of passersby thank you, because you’ve made somewhere more beautiful, they smile, it brings them happiness, it’s amazing. Thanks so much for these suggestions, they’re they’re much for these suggestions, EB: Thanks so We are, however, unfortunately really illuminating. of our conversation. But before approaching the end we do with all of our guests on we say goodbye, as is closest which place in Venice Nowtilus, I’ll ask you Savorgnano? to your heart, Michele food miles. Doing this would create lots of jobs, jobs, lots of create this would miles. Doing food of but also farming, of just a question it’s not because what is create it would transformation, distribution, or “blue economy”, as “circular economy” now known Starting with the primary could change. and so things to change our economy. could find a way industry, we OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 6 35 Yes, we definitely realised, even though this though this even realised, we definitely Yes, LBS: that the a year, for less than going has been project already changing. are documented we have things to mind, for example, instance that comes One such near the passenger tree that was located is the large big mulberry tree, San Basilio, a really terminal at to both offered shade 15 meters tall, which more than and arriving in Venice, on the boats the passengers at the port. This tree, shortly of course to the workers it, only about a week later, was after we documented for the new bridge that links cut down to make space Fondamenta delle Zattere towards the terminal to the one of the first losses we San Basilio. That was witnessed. the tree was going to be cut EB: Did you know that chance. down, or was it pure on LBS: We saw that there was some work underway problems, but the bridge because of some structural would touch we would never have imagined that they such a large and important tree. le monde” Musical interlude: Riccardo Sellan, “Écouter (2017) that EB: I realise you’re not a botanist, but I imagine these trees, in becoming more and more familiar with them. Without you’ve learned to recognise and classify of trees venturing into scientific detail, what types in the city? have you encountered most frequently seen LBS: Among the most common species, we’ve and a species a large number of poplars, sycamores, are often that’s quite unique, hackberry trees, which found on the mainland. EB: The hackberry. And did you see these trees at different times of the year? With more leaves, with fewer leaves, bare or in bloom, or did you choose to take photographs of all of them during the same stage of flowering or leaf development? LBS: The first part of our documentation took place in the summer, because we were preparing an exhibition which would have been hosted at Palazzo Mora, an “Insiders” show curated by Emma Soletti, and so for the moment we only have the documentation from the summer, when the trees were very leafy and had thick canopies. However we also intend to do a winter stage, to go and recapture just the structures of the branches and the trunks that also hold some real significance, for both aesthetic and documentary purposes. EB: Of the trees that you have surveyed, have you photographed them all, or is this still a work in progress? LBS: It’s still a work in progress. We’re still missing many, because there are so many subjects, it takes You mentioned before that the type of EB: You mentioned before that the type of photographic technique that you implemented required, and continues to require, quite some time for exposure and framing, it’s a rather long time to spend in the places where these trees are located. During the time you spent around these trees, did you end up learning any additional history, any stories linked to individual trees? Yes, you’re right, we reserved the black and LBS: Yes, you’re right, we reserved the black and white only for the photographic documentation, above all we chose it for contrast, making it a bit easier for the structure of the tree and the foliage to stand out separately from the background of the city, because by using specific color filters it’s possible to make the green or the brown of the trunk really stand out. Precisely because the photographic documentation is monochromatic, we chose to use color in the photographic survey. On this large map, which measures 100 by 70 centimeters, acrylic green in particular was used to signify the places that are currently being shown and that have been documented. Why did you choose black and white, a style that a style that EB: Why did you choose black and white, for reproducing people might think would be unsuitable characteristic the “greenness” of the tree, which is a us about, it’s that, if I’m not mistaken, you’ll be telling survey. an element of color that’s utilized in the We tried to create as objective a view as as LBS: We tried to create as objective a view that possible of the trees. We chose a medium as the perhaps wouldn’t immediately be considered because most suitable for photographs of vegetation, in a medium we used black and white photography, in place we format, reflective, which required staying tree by tree. were documenting for at least an hour, of people We didn’t set out to exclude the presence trees, and so or those who were making use of the none in others, there are people in some photos and by at that because no one happened to be passing we didn’t try to moment, and so from that perspective limit ourselves. So what criteria did you employ when you went on you employ when you went on EB: So what criteria did trees? to photograph these Yes, that’s right, just public spaces. LBS: Yes, that’s right, just So, the trees that are present in private properties, present in private properties, EB: So, the trees that are from this, right? gardens, are excluded far fewer, but thanks to this tool we really found a found a we really this tool thanks to but far fewer, and to tourists of shelter offer a bit trees that lot of that a very lucky We’re city alike. in the residents use we tried to exists. At the beginning tool like this Maps, but it was images from Google the satellite private courtyards to distinguish between impossible we other tool instead, spaces. Using this and public we were documenting certain that what could be really was public property. OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 6 36 precise from a topographical perspective, adding adding perspective, topographical from a precise Lucrezia e by Giovanni created to the maps details to get and starting on We’re working photo. for every for an expanded with the documentation underway out the we’ve only set For the moment second edition. that open to anything exhibition, but were scope of the of this project. about as a result might come everything so far. The project EB: Well, thank you for and we hope to see it soon in is really interesting, and to continue to watch how it another exhibition, we ask our guests on Nowtilus develops. As always, that’s close to their in Venice to tell us about a place a moment, or a situation too, and to hearts, it could be listeners. So I’ll ask you too, which share this with our your heart? place is closest to talked about it, it’s the tree in LBS: Well, we’ve already Campo delle Gorne. that it EB: We talked about it even without knowing Why is it so would come up as your favourite place! close to your heart? LBS: It gives me a very unique sense of peace. EB: Thank you! Well, good luck with the “Ortofoto” Scarpa project, and thank you to Lorenzo Basadonna for having joined us aboard Nowtilus. LBS: Thank you too. EB: Once again we’d like to thank Michele part of the Savorgnano, who was with us in the first Sellan, episode, and thanks to the musician Riccardo throughout whose music you’ve been listening to from a the episode in the form of some excerpts soundscape composed in 2017 for the “Ecouter le monde” project by Radio France Internationale. As always, thanks to all of you for listening to TBA21- for the Academy Radio from Ocean Space, Venice sixth episode of “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century”, a podcast curated by Enrico Bettinello and Alice Ongaro Sartori, in collaboration with Graziano Meneghin for post- production. You can listen to this episode, and both previous and future episodes of Nowtilus on ocean- archive.org or follow us on Soundcloud. A warm farewell from Enrico Bettinello. We have ideas about making it even more LBS: We have ideas about making it even more Come on, hopefully the stories about these trees EB: Come on, hopefully the stories about these trees aren’t all sad, hopefully the residents, given their strong and personal relationship with nature and the place where they live, maybe they’ll slowly start to rebuild their benches and tables around the tree. So, how will this project evolve, what ideas do you have for developing the project? Yes, it was the tree that started the project. The LBS: Yes, it was the tree that started the project. The story is a bit sad, like the one before. The residents built some small benches, little areas to better make the most of the shade produced by the tree, but when we went to document it, a work site for fiber optic internet had enclosed the tree, and when it was eventually taken away, all the wooden structures had been removed, leading to the loss of something that allowed the residents to enjoy it. Campo delle Gorne - for those who might not not EB: Campo delle Gorne - for those who might - is a be very familiar with some areas of Venice fact facing onto fascinating square, directly next to, in of the Arsenale a small canal that encircles the walls gallery where so it’s also very close to the of Venice, you held the exhibition. It’s something of a “kilometer zero” tree… Is there an interesting story behind this tree? Clearly like in many areas of Venice, the kind the kind LBS: Clearly like in many areas of Venice, on the of people that benefit from the trees depends In areas that flow of the city’s tourism in those areas. like Castello, are less frequented by mass tourism, or near the Giardini or the Arsenale for example, Sant’Alvise, certain areas in Cannaregio, towards by the the trees and the greenery are still enjoyed one of resident population. To give you an example, which is right in my favourite tres, the large hackberry all the houses Campo delle Gorne is a focal point for both young and that look onto the square, the people, fresh air old, go there to read a book, to get some that have during the summer, sitting on the benches been made beneath the tree. Did you also have an opportunity to meet people an opportunity to meet people EB: Did you also have where these trees are located, who live in the areas way tell you, or could you infer and did they in any relationships with the trees? from them, any particular like between these trees and What’s the relationship from these trees? Who rests the people? Who benefits children play around them? Can you beneath them? Do the human aspects linked to also tell us a little about these trees? a lot of time to go and take photographs of them. Up them. Up of photographs go and take of time to a lot of the 125 ten only around exhibited we have to now the first during we’ve taken that photographs or so is a continually developing idea is that this edition. Our like to finish covering of all, we would project. First open up to the city, and then maybe the historical islands. and then the other Giudecca NOWTILUS EPISODE 7 37 iTunes and Google Podcasts. been involved in fishing and the lagoon, has written been involved in fishing and the lagoon, has written wonderful books, has painted beautiful watercolors, and whom we are about to welcome aboard, and later, in the second part of the episode, we’ll be joined by documentary filmmaker Matteo Stocco, who will be telling us about a very original project called “Metagoon”. But for now, let’s say welcome to Luigi DIvari: welcome! Luigi Divari (LD): Hello, thank you. EB: In my brief introduction I was saying that you are involved in fishing and the lagoon, and that you’re a writer of books about fishing traditions and navigation, and that you paint beautiful watercolors. Spotify,

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You are listening to “Nowtilus. Enrico Bettinello (EB): You are listening to “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century”, a Bettinello is Enrico podcast by Ocean Space, Venice. here to welcome you, or perhaps welcome you back, aboard Nowtilus, stories, thoughts, notes, and issues In our 7th today. concerning the rethinking of Venice episode of Nowtilus we’ll be talking about fishing in the lagoon, how it has changed, how the relationship between the city and the lagoon is changing in recent decades, and what the people who are in close contact with the lagoon, who work with it every day, think about it. In this episode, we’ll be doing this in the company of Luigi Divari, who for many years has TBA21—Academy Radio

THE LAGOON with Luigi Divari and Matteo Stocco (Metagoon) Available from July 17th 2020, 4pm TBA21-Academy Radio on Ocean Archive,

OF FISHING IN OF FISHING THE EVOLUTION Episode 7 OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 7 38 All Venetian children have some experience with with some experience have children LD: All Venetian canals along the to go we used as children fishing, to fish our rods Martiri with dei Sette the Riva or on then when we slowly for gobies, and for “palanelli”, began to go out on the technique, we perfected a long fishing resume, a long process, boats. It was it’s in fact I’d say that to fish takes years, but learning years I’m over seventy to learn everything. impossible I learn new things. old now, but even nowadays fish in those days, and how EB: How did the fisherman compared to nowadays? I did they think differently were different back then… imagine the techniques still fishing as people did in LD: In the fifties they were only difference was that by then the 19th century. The motorized, mostly after the many of the boats were was simpler because they had war, and so everything using oars eliminated the hard work associated with very easy. Then and sails, with a motor everything was that was another nylon came in as a replacement, and and the nets even bigger step. But the fishing systems been in the were more or less the same as they had previous century. EB: So, despite your jealousy of the fishermen’s on the sea, did children’s lives, at first you didn’t work you? Can you tell us about this? So having LD: Obviously one passion leads to another. it was important to continue to go to school, because school and to go to school back then, I went to middle do in order then I said to myself: what do I need to School. to breathe the sea air? I’ll go to the Nautical from my And so, being only a few hundred meters School. But it house by the way, I went to the Nautical experience, wasn’t what I expected, I didn’t get much because I realised immediately that it was already too late for me to be a true sailor, because I would have liked to sail on brigantines, on schooners, but instead I only had the chance to work on tankers, and that just wasn’t the same thing. And so after a few years I started looking for a job on the land. EB: But then, at a certain point… LD: On the land, with the advantage of working from Monday to Friday, on Saturdays and Sundays I could indulge all my passions: sailing, nautical things, fishing, all that kind of stuff. EB: So listen, while you were telling us about fishing in the 1950s, you said that it was technically closer to fishing in the 19th century, but what happened after? When did the acceleration of changes in general fishing techniques and lagoon fishing take place? LD: Well, in the fifties, actually I’d say in the sixties, there was a boom in fishing. There had been many people who had been poor fishermen, who suddenly got rich, it was the only time in human history that EB: Who taught you to fish? Was it them? To help, yes, but it was real work! Like in the LD: To help, yes, but it was real work! Like in the countryside or in the mountains, the children really worked. And so I was very jealous of them, because I had to go to school in the morning, and they went fishing instead, and I considered them to be very lucky. EB: To help out? I made friends with the boys, because in those LD: I made friends with the boys, because in those days they used to bring their sons aboard too, when they reached 12 or 13, sometimes even at 11. As soon as they finished elementary school, many ended up on the boats with their fathers. Did you ever speak to these fishermen? Did you EB: Did you ever speak to these fishermen? Did you ever chat with them? Ah, well it was strange that even from a distance a distance LD: Ah, well it was strange that even from They you could tell that they weren’t Venetians. dressed differently, spoke differently. They went around wearing clogs or boots or were even barefoot in the summer. And they were full of character. And so I was particularly interested in their lives. Why do you say they were strange? What was was EB: Why do you say they were strange? What strange about them? It came about because destiny led to me being me being LD: It came about because destiny led to or near the born in Castello, and not in San Polo Polo, perhaps Frari church. If I had been born in San being born in none of this would have happened. But age I always Castello in the late-forties, from a young came and had the chance to see fishing boats, which of San went along the many canals of East Castello, there. They Pietro di Castello and the canals around the odd boat were mostly boats from Chioggia, with came to fish from San Pietro in Volta too, which all and then stayed in the area, sometimes for in Venice a child, I weeks at a time. And so ever since I was characters, passed the time by watching these strange these fishermen and their boats. Yes, of course, they will be able to visit, we’re will be able to visit, we’re EB: Yes, of course, they the last few weeks the museums always optimists! In been reopening, so let’s hope and exhibitions have able to see these watercolors of that people will be boats again soon. Luigi Divari, how fish and traditional with fishing come about? did your fascination Where people will be able to visit, maybe… LD: Where people will There’s an exhibition at the Centro Candiani that Centro Candiani that exhibition at the EB: There’s an visit… people can At the exhibition at Candiani, for the watercolors. at Candiani, LD: At the exhibition Unfortunately, we’re limited to sound, so we can’t see can’t see so we to sound, we’re limited Unfortunately, see them will try to listeners that our but I hope them, for themselves… OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 7 39 Something that we didn’t have previously is an is an have previously we didn’t that LD: Something to compared sea bream quantity of immeasurable was a five or six catching to be that It used before. forty, catch thirty, catch. Now people photo-worthy seven hundred grams, a kilogram each, fifty of them, back sizes in your dreams even see those you wouldn’t there’s the bluefish, also have new species, then. We but good to eat too, fish and it’s pretty it’s a beautiful it wasn’t caught, yet today it’s there was a time when also have a very recent arrival, the quite common. We blue crab. where does this blue crab EB: The blue crab? And come from? American crab, it’s beautiful, LD: The blue crab is an of the few invasive species that’s and above all it’s one Because usually the species that actually very good. but the blue come from abroad are all of poor quality, crab is actually very good to eat. from EB: Has it adapted well, or is it like the shrimp Louisiana that eat everything? common LD: No, it’s adapting very well, it’s now very it’s thriving, in the Po river delta, in the bay of Goro more common in but year after year it’s becoming ever it’s not just some the lagoon, and it’s actually very big, little crab. (spider EB: So it could become the new “granseola” crab) of the 21st century? it’s LD: Yes, it has some good qualities. In America in Washington a very important commercial product crab) state, and they make “moleche” (soft-shelled last year they with the blue crab in America. And just found blue crab at Rialto. EB: Wonderful! But let’s talk about Rialto, thanks for moving our conversation in the direction of the fish market there. We spoke about the Rialto fish market and how it’s changing in a previous episode. From your observations and research, can you tell us a little about how the fish market has changed in the last century? LD: Like all markets, Rialto is based on the number of shoppers. Because if you were to build a big market and there weren’t any shoppers, the market would have to become smaller. Rialto is a market that has no longer has many shoppers because Venice become a village with very few locals, who don’t eat much fish, and so the market has shrunk down to what you see today. EB: Sorry, but in terms of fish consumption for example, could you give our listeners a number, some sort of detail to help them understand? LD: Right now I don’t know how many kilograms per capita are consumed in Italy. That’s really interesting. And on the other hand, EB: That’s really interesting. And on the other hand, what do you find today that wasn’t around before? No, nobody fishes for them, there’s no longer any LD: No, nobody fishes for them, there’s no longer any sort of professional fishing of the “gò”. While back then there used to be whole families on San Pietro in Volta, Pellestrina and Chioggia that lived off fishing “gò” exclusively, year-round. Now nobody fishes for them, but very few are now left, and they only grow to half the size that they used to. They don’t grow to the sizes they used to because EB: They don’t grow to the sizes they used to because they’re caught earlier, or because they just don’t grow? The classic fish of the lagoon, the eel, used to be used to be LD: The classic fish of the lagoon, the eel, to catch one caught by the ton, but today if you were newspapers: it would be worthy of an article in the “Someone caught an eel!” Flounders, of which there used to be millions in the lagoon, are still present, but catching them is a rare and exceptional event. The “gò” (goby), is a fish that used to be found in unlimited quantities, and it used to live in the canals too, but now in order to collect a kilogram of them you would need to go on a scientific expedition to find them, and above all they don’t get as big as they used to, it seems to be the effect of some sort of dwarfism. Can you give us the names of some fish that used that used EB: Can you give us the names of some fish previously to be caught regularly because they were are no longer present in large numbers, but that today around, and vice versa? Well, for a start, beginning on a smaller scale, on a smaller scale, LD: Well, for a start, beginning enormously. Let’s not forget the lagoon has changed and the seventies there was that between the sixties the lagoon, and a lot of industrial pollution present in today. Despite the effects of this we still probably feel the these pollutants, also made up of micropollutants, perfect, but water is beautifully clear, the lagoon looks dioxin that the amounts of chrome, tin, mercury and and some are present have effects on the long term, in reproducing, organisms disappear or have difficulty have difficulty and so the fish that feed on these things greatly, and growing. So the environment has changed so has the sea. Let’s try to explain what has changed for our what has changed for our EB: Let’s try to explain that there were species that have listeners. You said that there are now species been wiped out, I imagine that on the other hand… fishermen became rich. Between the sixties and and the sixties Between rich. became fishermen strengthen to the opportunity they had when seventies, with with trawlers, enormously, of fishing the efforts ten necessary, which than were really stronger nets completely empty the later went on to years or so Now almost irreversibly. of many species, Adriatic Sea fishing is an industry left, and now there’s nothing entirely, it will stop out, if nothing changes that’s dying very difficult. because it’s becoming OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 7 40

think (‘laughing’)... However, my connection to the to the connection my However, (‘laughing’)... think that air, means that marine water with to the sea air, are storm there when especially in the winter, often and up to the lighthouse to go for a walk surges, I like being because it’s like at San Niccolò, the breakwater the breakwater on the water, because at sea, right place. it’s an ideal out into the Adriatic, extends right we’ll say goodbye, thanks EB: Thank you Luigi Divari, for joining us. LD: Thanks to you too. the reopening of the exhibition EB: And good luck with where your watercolours can be at Centro Candiani, seen! LD: Thank you, goodbye! EB: Goodbye! (2020) Musical interlude - Nicola Privato, “EdiTidE” Divari, we’re EB: And now we’ve said goodbye to Luigi Nowtilus. going to welcome Matteo Stocco aboard and the Matteo Stocco is a documentary filmmaker he’ll be creator of a very interesting project, which Matteo telling us about now, called “Metagoon”. Stocco, welcome! Matteo Stocco (MS): Thank you Enrico, hello. So, an experience “Metagoon” is a project that stems from Masa, I had that I had years ago with Bevilacqua La there, and so I the chance to take part in a residency to the Venetian decided to investigate themes relating to me, but Lagoon, an environment that is very close to study aspects of which I had never had a chance and explore. So what happened next? I began to explore a broad network of contacts, people who I might want to interview, and from there, step by step, I prepared and filmed a series of interviews with people who were directly linked to the lagoon, such as fishermen, scientists, and university researchers. EB: I see. Would you mind telling us what “Metagoon” means? I imagine it’s a composite word, but where did it come from? MS: Yes, I realise that it’s a name that doesn’t immediately evoke anything in our language, Italian, it could be that I’m shooting myself in the foot to some extent, but it seeks to make a statement about communication, in the sense that this project, from my point of view, obviously has to resonate with the local population, and then widen the scope beyond the Italian language, but in reality it stems from English. The name is divided in two halves: “Meta” and “goon”, taken from the English words “lagoon” and “meta”, because my intention was to talk about an environment, let’s call it an environment, that’s ephemeral, because the lagoon as we see it today I’ve never actually been there, but that’s what I LD: I’ve never actually been there, but that’s what I (‘Laughing’) Let’s hope that no one is listening in EB: (‘Laughing’) Let’s hope that no one is listening in Abbiategrasso! Ah, well Venice as a whole is close to my heart, my heart, as a whole is close to LD: Ah, well Venice because I consider myself truly lucky to have been born here. If I’d been born in Abbiategrasso it would have been a completely different life… Oh dear… Well, we’re approaching the end of EB: Oh dear… Well, we’re approaching the end of our chat, even if I would happily continue chatting with you for hours on end, because you are truly an encyclopedia of information and stories. But I can’t say as goodbye to you before asking you, a true Venetian you are, which part of our city or our lagoon is closest to your heart. LD: Much of the calamari come from South America. And a few calamari that come from Caorle every EB: And a few calamari that come from Caorle every now and again. Well, fish currently make some long migratory LD: Well, fish currently make some long migratory end up journeys. So, the fish in the northern Adriatic restaurants of in Switzerland, in Milan, in the five-star we get shrimp from northern Italy, and here in Venice Dory from Argentina, monkfish from Scotland, John from Spain, England, scallops from Brest, spider crab and trucks, and so on. Basically, if it wasn’t for planes here. Apart from nothing would ever get to the market clams, sardines, “gradusoi”, and a few other species. So, of the fish that we see in the market today, today, EB: So, of the fish that we see in the market imported? what percentage is locally sourced or I don’t think they aren’t even eaten in most of even eaten in most of LD: I don’t think they aren’t where the myth that the Venetians Italy. Maybe that’s from, because today people who always eat fish came always want to eat fish. In reality, come to Venice Rialto, they beyond selling tons of fish every day at food, because used to sell tons of every other type of used to have 160 thousand working mouths Venice eat today. to feed, and they ate more than the tourists of little These days a tourist is satisfied by a couple case. sandwiches, but that wasn’t always the The stuff of dreams today… EB: The stuff of dreams I have the data, which is fairly easy to access, easy to access, data, which is fairly LD: I have the fish species of certain common on the quantities the early 20th century. commercialized in that were a in which there’s document from 1905 There’s a were fish species that into all the whole investigation market, and there are astonishing present in the Rialto with the tons of “moleche”, tons numbers associated “gò”, of sea snails, of mullet. 650 of sardines, tons of tons of mullet for example. No, of course, but just to give us an idea of the of the an idea to give us but just of course, EB: No, proportion. OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 7 41 Industrial Engineering Department of the University of of of the University Department Engineering Industrial Padova. listen to this excerpt. EB: Well let’s Smania with Dario “Metagoon”, Interview Excerpt from in of waves and a motorboat (‘Sounds Dario Smania: if all the sandbanks “For example, the background’) what would be left? A great gulf were to disappear, thanks to climate change? Now filled with barracudas exaggerating to make a of course I’m deliberately it could well be that there are point... But in fifty years at sea, they do come from the Red barracudas out here are quite exotic species of birds, Sea after all. There that live on the sandbanks. There fish, and vegetation that are completely foreign to are also plants there is in a constant state of this environment. Everything of evolution that we can expect change, and the kind sandbanks will here means that in a few decades the a lake. If it certainly disappear, and this will become by offering turns into a lake we could find opportunities but we will kite-surfing, doing a lot of water sports, us in touch lose the typical characteristics that keep but because with our traditions, not just for nostalgia, of view of the it gives us some support from the point will become people who live here. Otherwise Burano will start a Disneyland for tourists, and the fishermen we can already selling french fries and hamburgers, as it becomes see starting to happen... At that point only the a race for real estate developers, because small apartment richest would be able to afford a even do the most here, and at that point the people who to the mainland, humble jobs would be forced to move The young as is already regularly the case nowadays. decreases, people leave, and the island’s population the the quality of the services tends to decrease, gone from five cinema has gone, the population has thousand to less than three thousand, and the people in the most precarious situations have to move away. You lose the community of fishermen here, and if you lose the fishermen, of which there are already very few, you lose control of the territory. Control of the territory is an advantage for those who want to exploit it, to take advantage of it, and make profit in the short term, as a poor quality, touristy sideshow... If tourism is based on, and manages to enhance, the typical aspects of this place, perhaps instead we will be able to mediate between the various needs of the people, and make a slightly more balanced contribution to the lagoon’s development…” EB: Well, that was a really interesting clip, because this Dario Smania has a lot to say. What sort of lagoon and what kinds of changes does an interview like this one with Smania reveal, and what other observations have you made from other interviews, perhaps with other fishermen or people that work in the lagoon? Are the attitudes similar? Is their attention drawn to the same sorts of themes? MS: So, I must say that I didn’t often encounter any From my selection of interviews, I would suggest MS: From my selection of interviews, I would suggest (‘laughs’) my conversation with Dario Smania, who is an external collaborator in the Lasa research group, the Environmental Systems Analysis Laboratory at the And given that our time is particularly limited, what EB: And given that our time is particularly limited, what could we listen to? It depends, they vary quite a lot. Sometimes MS: It depends, they vary quite a lot. Sometimes they last just three minutes, sometimes they reach ten minutes in length. We try to keep them within a standard range though. So listen, we’re intrigued by the content of these EB: So listen, we’re intrigued by the content of these interviews, these perspectives on the lagoon. Can we listen to one perhaps? Would you play one for us, an excerpt, obviously. How long are the individual interviews normally? Thanks for bringing us back to that. The “meta” “meta” MS: Thanks for bringing us back to that. The of the lagoon refers to a desire to go beyond the space as we see it or perceive it, and so the project, because it is a project more than just a documentary, is about communication, to convey the idea of a lagoon beyond what we experience and beyond the everyday impressions that a person might settle upon. And so, returning to the word “meta” that we left that we left EB: And so, returning to the word “meta” hanging for a moment, what does it mean? Thanks for asking me that, because it’s a project me that, because it’s a project MS: Thanks for asking entirely on the content of the that is based almost as interviews, and the interviews were conceived that we mirror images, so to speak. By that I mean of a scientist have the point of view, the testimony on the other and their research on the lagoon, but but completely hand we also have the non-scientific, or the helmsman experiential evidence of a fisherman, different of ship, or a birdwatcher. So there are at perspectives of the same space, sometimes but with complete opposite ends of the spectrum, see that some points where they overlap. So you offers us even the experience of an old fisherman by the information that then gets used and studied scientists. Yes, we talked about this in previous episodes. previous episodes. talked about this in EB: Yes, we you, but our listeners are I didn’t want to interrupt familiar with this aspect of our already somewhat maybe, beyond the name, they’re lagoon’s history. But sort of criteria you use, or have curious about what project - can you tell us if it’s used, in tackling this What were the criteria that you a work in progress? conducting your interviews? implemented when exists due to the efforts that people went to in order in order went to that people efforts due to the exists in will know, people As many the past. it in to maintain to managed the Serenissima of the Republic the past - thanks to great engineers course of rivers deviate the but engineers at the time, weren’t called perhaps they hydraulic engineering… experts in OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 7 42 one-offs. The intention that underlies the people who who the people that underlies intention The one-offs. tell you and I’ll like Dario, these activities, initiate the to reconsider shortly, is example another about of course there’s always as well. Then political world from the political that there will be interest the hope up that can open too, a new perspective counterparts make sense? Does that new opportunities. it very well! So let’s EB: Of course, you’re explaining what is the mission behind this talk about “Metagoon”, it develop in the coming months? project and how will alternative as a documentary MS: “Metagoon” is quite We’ve already been fairly active project, so to speak. online documentaries for in producing interactive example, the film “Board of a few years now. For various projects in this manner, Canada” developed of the major producers. And in fact, just to mention one interactive “Metagoon” is designed to be an online interviews documentary project, where all of these through will be linked together in a dynamic interface, the various which people will be able to connect of DIY editing pieces together themselves. It’s a kind require much that’s quite ahead of its time, and doesn’t and We effort. Right now, thanks to Ocean Space too, David Hrankovic’s studio and Are Here Venice help putting Laguna B have managed to get us some web interface together all the material and making the The launch ready, if all goes well, for September. or of the platform should take place by September on the October, in the next few days we’re deciding final deadline. have you EB: Let’s cross our fingers! How many years been working on this project for? 2015, MS: The project started five years ago, in and I’m still going with some interviews that I’ll be conducting in the coming days. EB: And in all these years of working on “Metagoon”, what have you learned? MS: Well, I’ve learned that I still won’t have fully understood the lagoon for many years to come, because the interviews that I’m conducting reveal that that there’s it’s incredibly complex, and within this complexity there’s also a beauty that can be appreciated just by simply looking around, as a sailor might do arriving in the lagoon on a boat, or as people might do on the bus as it travels along the coast of Pellestrina. But at the same time, this beauty can be appreciated by learning to listen to people who have experienced it all their lives. EB: Right, we’re approaching the end of the episode, but we never forget to ask our guests about something a little more personal: the place that’s closest to their as someone or in the lagoon. For you, heart in Venice who has travelled around the lagoon and the city in order to record all these interviews and to film your I should start by clarifying something in order MS: I should start by clarifying something in order to explain this sort of collaboration a little better. These kinds of projects are all financed by European funds, so they’re projects that are only of value as Are there other examples of possible opportunities EB: Are there other examples of possible opportunities to convert the jobs of these fishermen in this very synergetic and interesting manner, with science? Well, from the interviews that I’ve done and the and the MS: Well, from the interviews that I’ve done Kinonauts, projects I’m involved in through my studio use the plural, together with Matteo Primiterra, so I’ll we often find ourselves involved in documenting scientific projects in which fishing is fundamental. specific species Imagine I’m a biologist researching a reasons in the lagoon, it’s impossible, for financial observing too, for me to be in the lagoon every day, certain animal behaviours for example. So, what do I do? I take advantage of the work done by fishermen, so that their daily observation of the lagoon can reveal a source of data for my research. So what happens? Sometimes scientists appoint the fishermen to help them in their research, paying them to do so of course, and so it’s like there’s a parallel activity for the fishermen, it’s like having a kind of sensor out in the lagoon, if you’ll allow me that metaphor, that observes, collects data, and reports this data back to the scientists every day. In Dario and Vimine’s case specifically, the fishermen were introduced as labor and assistance in order to be able to understand how to contain and protect the sandbars as much as possible by using barriers. Sorry if I interrupt you there, but in the first part of first part of EB: Sorry if I interrupt you there, but in the actually talking the episode with Luigi Divari, he was to us about the way that fishing has transformed towards a and how this is now pushing this industry us how people moment of serious crisis. Can you tell come out are dealing with this problem, what has that you have through your project and the interviews conducted? one specific type of awareness or theme, I’m very I’m very theme, or of awareness type one specific very but simultaneously a broad, that such aware the people to find in difficult is perspective sensitive, day, not to take anything the lagoon every who live in need sometimes you do the fishermen, but away from understand the point of view to better an external In my experience in which you operate. environment of that there is something years, I have found in recent such as the Universities of a trend among institutions the lagoon environment to approach Padua or Venice For example, I interviewed with safeguarding projects. at the time he was working on a Dario in 2016, and the salt marshes. The project was project to safeguard which can be explored online at called “Life Vimine”, but what I can tell you now their website lifevimine.eu, worked with the participation of is that the way they interesting. Like many industries the fishermen is very environment, fishing is currently that affect the lagoon in a state of crisis… OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 7 43

Thanks again to Luigi Divari who was with us in EB: Thanks again to Luigi Divari who was with us in the first part of the episode, and thanks to Nicola Privato, whose music, from an very interesting project called EdiTidE, has been present throughout the episode. As always, thanks to all of you for listening to TBA21- Academy Radio from Ocean Space, Venice for the seventh episode of “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century”, a podcast curated by Enrico Bettinello and Alice Ongaro Sartori, in collaboration with Graziano Meneghin for post- production. You can listen to this episode, and both previous and future episodes of Nowtilus on ocean- archive.org or follow us on Soundcloud. A warm farewell to all of you from Enrico Bettinello, and see you soon. MS: Thank you, fingers crossed! Goodbye. I know it well and I know what you mean! Thank Thank EB: I know it well and I know what you mean! Nowtilus, you to Matteo Stocco for joining us aboard and good luck with the “Metagoon” project! Exactly, during my time exploring the lagoon, lagoon, MS: Exactly, during my time exploring the of the I’ve set myself the goal of exploring many which is the abandoned islands, like San Secondo, by in Venice island that you can see when you arrive Libertà there’s train, on the left side of the Ponte della there too. My this abandoned island, and I’ve been Every time next target is the octagon at Alberoni. in my head that I pass it, I come up with a great film what might be (‘laughs’), so to speak, trying to imagine inside. Ah, the octagon at Alberoni! Let’s explain for the Alberoni! Let’s explain for the EB: Ah, the octagon at and who might not from Venice people who aren’t lagoon, it’s a sort of fortified islet be familiar with the and only accessible by that’s currently abandoned, have you boat. So you’ve passed close by the island, ever stepped foot on it? A place that comes to mind is somewhere that to mind is somewhere that MS: A place that comes but when I look at it I’m filled with I’ve yet to explore, and that’s the octagon at a real desire to explore, Alberoni. Throw something out there, from the heart. out there, EB: Throw something I really appreciate you asking me that question, me that question, you asking MS: I really appreciate one it’s a difficult to be completely honest, but I have to answer. documentaries, is there somewhere in Venice that’s that’s in Venice somewhere is there documentaries, your heart? close to really NOWTILUS EPISODE 8 44 iTunes and Google Podcasts. be doing this together with Alice De Santillana, artist, be doing this together with Alice De Santillana, artist, designer and co-founder of Autonoma, a project that she will be telling us about shortly, and then in the second part of our episode, together with Marcantonio Brandolini D’Adda who will talk to us about the LagunaB project. In the meantime, let’s welcome Alice De Santillana aboard: welcome! Alice De Santillana (ADS): Thank you Enrico, hello. EB: Welcome aboard Nowtilus. So let’s talk to you about glass, you’re an artist, a young designer, who Spotify, SoundCloud,

You are listening to Nowtilus. Enrico Bettinello (EB): You are listening to Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century, a Bettinello Enrico podcast by Ocean Space, Venice. is here to welcome you, or perhaps welcome you back, aboard Nowtilus: stories, thoughts, notes, and today. issues concerning the rethinking of Venice In the eighth episode of Nowtilus we’ll be talking about glass, one of the techniques, art forms and manufacturing activities linked most closely with aware. We’ll and its history, as I’m sure you’re Venice TBA21—Academy Radio INNOVATION Available from July 31st 2020, 4pm TBA21-Academy Radio on Ocean Archive, with Alice de Santillana (Autonoma) and Marcantonio Brandolini D’Adda (LagunaB) with Alice de Santillana (Autonoma) and Marcantonio HISTORY AND AND HISTORY

GLASS, BETWEEN BETWEEN GLASS, MURANO AND AND MURANO Episode 8 OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 8 45 working with materials that are that are working with materials Well, firstly, I came across many similarities similarities many came across firstly, I Well, ADS: and Murano fashion workshops high between team discussion. with a always start We furnaces. things the people who put and in glass, Both in fashion just an create are never and the people who together, result of a combination person, but are the individual and between glass The big difference of ingredients. are much longer that fashion timescales fashion is has the beauty of being able and slower. while glass a three-dimensional object to transform itself into have an immediate result. I’m very quickly, so you have to be completely attentive to convinced that we to have therefore an awareness everything around us, objects, things and people, that’s of and a respect for of ​​ why I like the idea that can be - if treated well extremely fragile, but Obviously there are - also extremely long-lasting. that are similar. Fabrics are the some characteristics often the case result of layering, stratifications, as is and with glassmaking too, there are transparencies so even variations in texture which can be achieved, both clothes on a tactile level, when you touch them, be obtained. and glass, very different sensations can “Rivers of Sand” Musical interlude - Christian Fennesz, 2004) (track from the album “Venice”, do you EB: So, I wanted to ask you something: How continues? It’s very think the legacy of Paolo Venini who has had a interesting how you, as a young person has ended up significant and international experience, and above on Murano with the legacy of Paolo Venini, team, as you all with a job that is not just a role in a also linked to an told us with great clarity, but which is artistic vision, so how do you find it today? ADS: Let’s say that an aesthetic linked to Venini has still echoes around Murano. However, Venini remained an extremely important brand, recognized internationally. So I believe that everyone has grasped what needed to be grasped. I certainly believe that one of the most interesting characteristics of Venini, in my opinion, has to be the colors, and here are still some combinations of colors and techniques that were and have that have remained, developed by Venini become, characteristics of Murano more broadly. I think everyone has obtained something very personal. EB: And for you, given that you mention the personal, which technique or techniques do you like the most, or have you identified with most in recent years? ADS: Well, let’s say that I definitely have a passion for lines and everything to do with using “canne” (rods of glass), “reticelli” (mesh-like patterns), “fenici” (festoon-like wavy patterns), and “fili buttati” (thin strands of glass). However, I stick to a maximum of three colors, which is something that is always very important to me. In my small sculptures I’ve tried to experiment with various traditional techniques, sometimes considered a little old-fashioned, trying I was just about to ask you, what sort of EB: I was just about to ask you, what sort of similarities there are? Fragility strikes me as a very interesting concept for those who "handle" both high fashion and, of course, glass. How much of your family history did you rediscover through your experience in the world of high fashion, and how much did you then bring back with you in your most recent experiences relating to glass, through this idea of working with such delicate materials? Of course! So, I represent the fourth fourth So, I represent the ADS: Of course! I’m the great- of a family of glassmakers, generation who arrived in Venice of Paolo Venini, granddaughter 1920 and discovered Murano, at the beginning of Murano, and so decided to move he fell in love with with Napoleone Martinuzzi and Together to Venice. in 1925. After that, founded Venini Vittorio Zecchin, he real entrepreneurial spirit, decided with a Paolo Venini, to the world and allowed research, to open his furnace glass itself to be taken to another experimentation, and was known up to that point. Above level beyond what to a lot of international artists all, he opened his doors ran a fabulous company for forty and designers and grandfather years, right up until his death. Then my took Ludovico De Santillana, who was an architect, Venini. over and married my grandmother Anna for more than Ludovico, who was in charge of Venini of openness twenty years, also continued this sort Murano towards the world, and managed to export international glass in a completely new way, in an hasn’t been in our family since 1986, so way. Venini opened a new my father, my aunt and my grandfather they tried to company together, called Eos, with which After my grandfather continue the philosophy of Venini. and my passed away, my aunt Laura De Santillana artists, father Alessandro continued as independent faithful to the going their separate ways, remaining different family aesthetic, but following two completely shapes, paths. My aunt focused more on simple working more with color and color combinations, my father, a sort of Rothko of the glass world, and concentrated especially in the last years of his career, on using a kind of mirror technique, mirroring, gilding, linked techniques, which are very traditional Venetian to gilders, which started being used around 1300. Both have managed to continue this experimentation and take glass in a completely new direction. I actually come from a background in high fashion, I worked for Valentino for some time and I was completely amazed by the poetry of the workmanship, of what you can achieve with hours of patience, working with very fragile and extremely ephemeral materials, which are somehow actually quite similar to what I later found in working with glass. I’ve been hanging out in the world of glass for three years now, and I’m slowly continuing to learn everything I can myself. - and maybe you would like to tell us about this - has this - has us about like to tell would maybe you - and the world with relationship important deep and a very telling us you mind Would your blood. it’s in of glass, this? more about OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 8 46 Thank you so much. But before saying goodbye goodbye before saying much. But you so EB: Thank Brandolini to Marcantonio baton over the and passing part of the second guest in be our who will D’Adda, that we ask all our I have a question this episode, you we now also ask Nowtilus, and that guests on Venice tell us where in pleasure: could you with great De Santillana? to your heart, Alice is closest is definitely the lagoon and ADS: My favorite place I grew up in Dorsoduro and I the Punta della Salute. change very rapidly over the years, have seen the city Now there is nothing left, especially in that area. of the few people who live there. except the houses is that it is a city about Venice The thing I love most of day, and in certain periods that at a certain time completely yours again. I feel of the year, becomes my city. This is something that like I’m the owner of beyond beauty, the pleasure is fundamental for me, is also of being close to the sea which for me to, and fundamental. However, feeling connected feeling that not aggressively swallowed up by a city, when I connection, but also being able to disconnect to me, feel like it, a bit like the tide, is very important is in Venice and allows me to meditate, to listen. Time that is very drawn out in an almost ancient way, and much in harmony with my personality… joining for you thank Santillana, de Alice you Thank EB: projects. us today, and good luck with all your ADS: Thank you! “The Point of it Musical interlude - Christian Fennesz, 2004) All” (track from the album “Venice”, Brandolini EB: Now it’s time to welcome Marcantonio mentioned in D’Adda aboard Nowtilus, who, as was the first part of this episode, plays a leading role in the LagunaB project. Welcome Marcantonio! Thank you Marcantonio Brandolini D’Adda (MBDA): Enrico! EB: Thank you, and welcome aboard! Thanks for joining us. As we were saying, Alice already talked a little about it, but now we’d like to hear directly from you how your passion for glass came about, and what exactly is LagunaB? If I’m completely honest, my passion didn’t MBDA: start with glass. Glass is something that I found its way into my hands, because LagunaB is a company that my mother founded in 1994 and I experienced the world of glass through her when I was a child, and I didn’t always exactly love it. I didn’t love it because the relationship I had with Murano, when I visited the island, was difficult. Murano is an island that can give a lot, but at the same time it can intimidate people, often young people and children. It’s a pretty difficult working environment, so I wasn’t all that inspired by glass, and then, and I often tell people this because So, I returned to Venice three years ago, and three years ago, and ADS: So, I returned to Venice Marcantonio. We said to each three years ago I met a similar situation, we said: we other, both being in with glass, so what can we want to do something Murano to do? Do we want to open the doors of company, the world for a moment? He has his own which are LagunaB and through my family’s contacts, my aunt spread between Italy and the United States, in Pilchuck, put Marcantonio in touch with the school of Pilchuck, with Tina Aufiero who was the director to take a and Marcantonio ended up going to Pilchuck he was able summer course, and while he was there glass to experience the liveliness of the American world. Pilchuck is a huge center for experimentation the world and research, where artists from all over that meet every summer, and it enjoys a liveliness So we there wasn’t much of in Murano anymore. in Murano in thought about creating an ad hoc program started collaboration with Pilchuck, and this program programs, three years ago. We have created various dedicated to a and every year there’s a new program fifteen artists different problem. So far we have hosted We who have come from fifteen different countries. sent some Murano glass masters to Pilchuck, who really had their eyes opened, and who rediscovered a love and passion for their work, which at times can become almost automatic. It ended up being an experiment that has actually been a great success, and it’s really nice to see how the people of Murano are gradually opening up and showing a desire to share and learn. It’s a program that is constantly evolving. This year we started a program for high school children, so we involved two American high schools, Yaya, which is based in New Orleans, and Hilltop in Tacoma, in collaboration with the Abate Zanetti school in Murano. Obviously, due to Covid, we had to reinvent it as a digital program this year, but next summer American school children will be here to attend a workshop. The following year, in 2022, all the children from both Murano and the American schools will meet in Pilchuck to share an experience together, and we would like to be able to help today’s young artists as much as possible in giving them the inspiration to continue to work in the glass world, and to feel supported, giving them a way to gain some visibility within a context like very important. which is super prestigious and Venice, So yes, we definitely won’t stop here... Very interesting. So, while I was introducing you, I while I was introducing you, I interesting. So, EB: Very project, so it seems like mentioned the “Autonomous” you to tell us a little about this the right time to ask closely related to what we project, which is obviously are talking about. to give them a slightly innovative spin, stopping the the spin, stopping slightly innovative them a to give typically techniques or employing halfway, process momentarily order to glass, in shapes of for other used you are used to seeing, object from what distance the identity perhaps a kind of poetic while maintaining itself than eighteenth- closely to glass linked more century Venice. OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 8 47 more convenient. The first transition was moving from from was moving transition The first convenient. more it, which as I see production, to artisanal industrial been a great has there because a huge transition, was Just as a little footnote, in the process. loss of work and for example, made syringes on Murano they also the everything. When they really made by that I mean island had to rethink moved away, the production the world of design, And there was Venini, everything. art, and so on. This world the world of craftsmanship, or thirty years ago now, because ended here twenty company with true management there’s no longer any it’s really important that Murano or real vision. So now to the world of glass, in the changes its approach a place linked exclusively to sense that it is no longer but it has the potential to be traditions and to history, and innovation that can then be a place of research to the glass industry as a whole. applied more broadly Murano, and EB: So, we often talk about the colors of and material how color has changed from a chemical utilized by the perspective. It is unlikely that the colors still being used great masters a few decades ago are about this today. Would you mind telling our listeners transition and what caused it? If we There are also various answers here. MBDA: we could be wanted to really go into depth on this, is that over here for five hours. But the short version glass the last hundred years, if not more, Murano the glass, has been characterized by the color of production. this is also linked to the practicality of the Nowadays, we’ve realized that most of both for components that make up glass are harmful, the ecosystem and for humans. EB: Can you give an example? Cadmium, or for making white, arsenic, we MBDA: could also talk about uranium for making yellow… EB: Dangerous substances. Dangerous substances that, in our opinion MBDA: at LagunaB, should no longer exist. By this I mean that although Murano was so brilliant in the past, and that part of its history needs to be remembered, nonetheless we need to push ahead, not trying to relive the past, fighting against the emotion of craftsmanship, industry and aesthetics. The aesthetics have to evolve, because today we still have this mentality of "Ah, che beo!" (Ah, how beautiful!). But no, it should be that it’s beautiful because the way it was made is beautiful, it’s beautiful for the benefits it brings, that’s what’s really beautiful. Musical interlude - Christian Fennesz, “Laguna” (track 2004) from the album “Venice”, EB: Well, seeing that you’re talking to us very frankly about Murano, but also with a deep love and understanding which almost physically comes out There are answers that Murano’s history can There are answers that Murano’s history can MBDA: offer, but this history doesn’t begin just a hundred years ago, but rather hundreds of years ago. Murano was born as an industrial district, necessary at the along and for its trade. Obviously, time for Venice the way, in the last hundred years there have been numerous inventions and various changes to the economy, and this in turn has led to globalization, it has caused production to shift to areas where it is Sorry to interrupt, because we talked about EB: Sorry to interrupt, because we talked about this before with Alice. There have been some great which is a wonderful examples such as that of Venini, example in this context, with a history of excellence in the relationship between glass makers and artists. And in fact Alice brought back the idea of taking this combination to a higher level, as she herself is testament to. Can I ask you, without going into too much detail from a historical point of view, your opinion on what went wrong in this relationship, in this marriage between art and the great glassmaking tradition on Murano, which has not always been able to realize its full potential? We decided to follow a path in which the the We decided to follow a path in which MBDA: aesthetics, value of the product is not conferred by is often by beauty, by the nostalgic beauty that the value associated with Murano glass, but rather is the value of we want to associate with our product generations. delivering positive benefits for future EB: (Laughing) You still are! Around thirty. Well, we were young when we we Around thirty. Well, we were young when MBDA: started… EB: What’s the average age? Let’s say that together with my two partners, with my two partners, Let’s say that together MBDA: in 2016. We wanted to we took over the company had take a broader path than the one my mother yourself with undertaken, also because surrounding to think more a strong and effective team leads you the product. broadly. And in this case, to think beyond We are young people after all. So can you tell us, now that it’s in your hands, how now that it’s in your hands, how EB: So can you tell us, of love you came to understand after this initial lack Murano glass, and how the the true essence of LagunaB project evolved? I broke it with my ball, with my video game my video game with my ball, with I broke it MBDA: again, sorts of things. But I broke it with all controller, way into my hands, yet my passion glass still found its itself. extends beyond glass (Laughs) What did you break it with? What did you break EB: (Laughs) it’s a something that makes me laugh, I almost couldn’t couldn’t I almost me laugh, that makes something it’s a of was a source it, which to break it, I used stand my mother… anxiety for great OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 8 48 You mentioned Pilchuck, which is a great is a great which Pilchuck, mentioned You MBDA: and a community, create glass can of how example perspective, a research art. From it can create how glass industry is the most important Koenig, which marketable innovations has introduced in the world, is a firm foothold for sector, and in the industrial it has a very active community, because the glass artisanal linked to the that finances projects foundation large corporation, so it has its own glassmaking. It’s a but in our opinion it’s an important way of doing things, Of course there are probably example for research. many others… unfortunately we can’t talk EB: I can imagine, but returning to LagunaB, I about all of them. So, started research into life-cycle know that you also University of Padua last year. assessment with the that briefly, because we are Do mind telling us about approaching the end of our chat. Sure. In a nutshell, life-cycle assessment MBDA: of a certain aims to analyze the environmental impact to go in industry. We decided to do this voluntarily, the impact of depth with our impact, to look at not only also to look into the office or the production itself, but from all over the impact of bringing in mineral products by truck, by the world. So transport, how things arrive, gas we use ship, how it arrives on Murano, how much in production. I’m not EB: How much traffic are we talking about? how much going to ask for the specific data, but annually or material, raw material, arrives on Murano monthly, I don’t know… very, very little in comparison with the Very, MBDA: is mainland. But one thing that’s really interesting the impact of our glass, which is of course our main product, and which has an impact of releasing one and a half kilograms of CO2, also accounting for all the semi-processed materials that used, turbine machines, and so on… So it was an interesting study, which over the next few years we will balance out through our offsetting project… EB: Listen, I’m sorry to say, because this chat is really interesting, we’re approaching the end of our episode. But as with all our guests aboard Nowtilus, I’ll ask you to your is closest this question too: where in Venice heart? are the lagoon My favorite places in Venice MBDA: inlets. Because they give me a feeling of freedom that a small city because it is is often lacking in Venice, after all. I always leave a part of my heart behind at those inlets… EB: You go there by boat obviously. Yes, always. MBDA: Well, you are always very clear and very straight EB: Well, you are always very clear and very straight with your opinions. I’m very interested in what you said when you hinted at internationality and this international vision that the island of Murano could Earlier we embrace for glass production in Venice. talked about Pilchuck. In your opinion, given that you have an international vision, are there other glass centers around the world that we can look to? Clearly there are some well-known and highly developed examples, which are also avant-garde from many points of view. But are there any experiences that you suggest looking towards, in light of this reimagination of Murano as a place of research, which you have rightly emphasized as one of the key points of innovation? So can you give our listeners an international example, even just briefly? The government is a lost cause, so it is useless is useless The government is a lost cause, so it MBDA: to even try to talk to them. I am of the opinion that we need to make do even without institutions. I am lucky enough to be able to say that, not all of us are able to get by without these institutions, and yet I think that abandon must both companies and every Venetian the idea that the state works, because the state just doesn’t work. In your opinion, who needs to make the first move? first move? EB: In your opinion, who needs to make the The companies or the government? So it would be a case of incentivizing these these So it would be a case of incentivizing MBDA: to sell them to, spaces and the owners of these spaces that can or to hand over management to organizations to Venice. bring jobs, innovation, and a new identity Here on Nowtilus we often talk about how the how the EB: Here on Nowtilus we often talk about of quality of life is one of the principal characteristics the whole city. There is real potential for Venice as a city. as a city. for Venice There is real potential MBDA: and this is than Venice, Murano is more closed our entire district. What I a problem that affects believe, is that foreign countries believe, and what we whole should participate in the and the world as a creation of a new identity for redevelopment and spaces that we have should So these empty Venice. research, offices for large global serve as places of So I would companies, bringing jobs along with them. in the go from door to door of the top ten companies buildings upon world and I would say: Guys, there are so bad either, on buildings here, the quality of life isn’t the contrary (‘laughs’)... through your story, in your opinion how has the island the island how has opinion in your your story, through point of an urban just from even transformed, itself about as spoken is often which It is an island view? and unused spaces, is full of abandoned a place that that are no longer there are many furnaces obviously converted and reused. which could be operational, Murano give in the of impression does What sort kind of yourself, and what young person like eyes of a from this perspective? potential could it have OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 8 49 And thanks to Marcantonio Brandolini D’Adda Brandolini D’Adda EB: And thanks to Marcantonio Nowtilus, thanks again to Alice for joining us aboard with us in the first part, and De Santillana for being Fennesz whose music you will have thanks to Christian intro theme and throughout heard both in our classic of some excerpts from the the episode in the form an album from a few years beautiful album, “Venice”, Of course, thanks ago, dedicated to the city of Venice. Radio to all of you for listening to TBA21 — Academy for the eighth episode of from Ocean Space, Venice, in the 21st “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon Bettinello and century”, a podcast curated by Enrico with Graziano Alice Ongaro Sartori, in collaboration listen to all the Meneghin for post-production. You can or follow episodes of Nowtilus on ocean-archive.org us on Soundcloud. A warm farewell to all of you from Enrico Bettinello. Thank you Enrico. MBDA: EB: And so every now and then you use them for some some you use them for every now and then EB: And so to inlets! Thanks again around the lagoon escapades for joining us aboard Brandolini D’Adda Marcantonio luck to LagunaB! Nowtilus and good I use the work boats… I use the MBDA: What kind of boat do you have? If you don’t mind mind If you don’t have? boat do you kind of EB: What me asking… NOWTILUS EPISODE 9 50

iTunes and Google Podcasts. or boatyard, and later with Silvio Testa, who was a or boatyard, and later with Silvio Testa, who was a journalist for the "Gazzettino" for many years, and who has always been an authority on the practices of rowing and sailing in the Upper Adriatic. In the meantime, however, let’s welcome Elena Tramontin, welcome Elena! Elena Tramontin (ET): Thank you, welcome. EB: Thanks! Elena said welcome to us because we are actually recording this episode from inside this magical Spotify, SoundCloud,

It’s Enrico Betinello here, Enrico Bettinello (EB): It’s Enrico Betinello here, welcoming you aboard Nowtilus, stories, thoughts, notes, and issues concerning the rethinking of Venice today. In our ninth episode, we’re talking about boats, lagoon watercraft, and we’ll be doing this together with Elena Tramontin, who along with her sister Elisabetta, manages a historic family “squero”, Intro Music - Enrico Coniglio, “Saltland” (2020) TBA21—Academy Radio CHALLENGES Available from July 29th 2020, 4pm TBA21-Academy Radio on Ocean Archive, with Elena Tramontin and Silvio Testa OARS, AND NEW AND NEW OARS,

GONDOLAS, SAILS, SAILS, GONDOLAS, SLOW NAVIGATION. SLOW Episode 9 OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 9 51 into our own hands, and so for two years now we we years now so for two and own hands, into our to the maintenance ourselves mostly dedicated have The small boats. and other gondolas of and painting for is on standby side of the business construction now. it requires because obviously EB: It’s on stand-by and materials… skills, time experience and requires a good ET: It requires a lot of and it takes many say in Venice, eye, "ocio" as they taking it slow, no need to years to learn. So we’re in the end. hurry, we’ll get there what your typical day is like EB: So let’s try to describe and what the division of labor is inside the “squero”, like in particular. decide what ET: Well, we get here in the morning, we the work work needs to be done, and then when my sister is finished we rest. We share the work: stuff, the real dedicates herself to more of the practical than me work, and I help her, because she is better On the other with her hands, she is much more artistic. side. Our hand, I deal with more of the public relations years, so we father had been giving tours for twenty workload and continue to do this too. We share the we complement one another. they tours EB: So what do these tours consist of? Are for tourists, for travelers, for Venetians? ET: They’re tours for anyone, even for Venetians themselves. come to visit? EB: Do Venetians ET: Yes, yes, they do. Then we also run an educational project for children together with the schools. During the visit, all the stages of gondola construction are explained, we tell the story of our family, and we always try to adapt our visits to the people we are in front of. We really want to offer an experience, immerse people in a somewhat unknown world, and so we try to involve people as much as possible. EB: How do people usually react? What kind of feedback do you get? ET: When they come inside the “tesa” they are speechless, they’re amazed by what’s inside here, by the atmosphere that you feel here, the smell, and the way we try to tell the story is very engaging and really appreciated. For us this place is normal because we grew up here, but when I see the amazement on people’s faces, I feel very proud to be the daughter of Roberto, the granddaughter of Nedis. EB: … To carry on this lineage. But how was the decision initially received, the decision to carry on the family tradition? This place is like home for us. We have always ET: This place is like home for us. We have always spent time here, the family has always talked about both our grandfather’s and our father’s profession, so let’s say we know the theoretical side. Unfortunately, we aren’t as familiar with the practical part, we were doing something completely different before. When it was time to decide what to do, we took this challenge When you started running the “squero”, you EB: When you started running the “squero”, you weren’t particularly experienced in this business. But what did you do when you were children, did you come here, did you help out? ET: Yes, this is where the family works, right here. The “squero” will have been in the Tramontin family EB: The “squero” will have been in the Tramontin family for 137 years. ET: This year it’ll be 136 years, next year it will be 137. EB: 1884, let’s do some calculations ... Our great-great-grandfather Domenico founded ET: Our great-great-grandfather Domenico founded this “squero” on February 2, 1884. So how long has the “squero” been in the family? EB: So how long has the “squero” been in We have been managing it since November 2018, 2018, ET: We have been managing it since November to continue after our father passed away we decided there were the tradition, obviously aware of our limits, to do, but the certain things that we didn’t know how not only desire to carry on such an important tradition, to move for us but for the city itself, is our motivation forward. Right, these are all names that will be familiar to familiar to EB: Right, these are all names that will be might but people who aren’t from Venice Venetians, various boats not know them, these are all names of shapes and used for both work and leisure, of various of boats. sizes, names that represent a great variety you manage Elena, as we said while introducing you, How this squero together with your sister Elisabetta. long have you been running it? Ah, “sanpierote”, “tope”, “scioponi”, “mascarete”, “scioponi”, “mascarete”, ET: Ah, “sanpierote”, “tope”, be built here ... “sandoli”, might all So aside from the gondola, which of course gondola, which of course EB: So aside from the with, what kinds of boats are built everyone is familiar here? A “squero” is a typical Venetian shipyard, which shipyard, which is a typical Venetian ET: A “squero” into descends directly a clay dock that typically has is covered part, which And then there’s a the water. from built entirely “tesa”, with an exterior called the in the of a house is somewhat reminiscent wood and is where the gondolas and all mountains, and which boats are built. Venetian the smaller, typical space, the Tramontin “squero”. For those who don’t don’t those who For “squero”. the Tramontin space, is? what a “squero” explain we should perhaps know, OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 9 52 do you see the evolution of this occupation in today’s in today’s of this occupation evolution see the do you Venice? with a lot of there are many people ET: I see that passion and a lot of this kind of profession, passion for is. Because there’s truly what Venice for preserving back without thinking can go forward no way Venice and craftsmanship from. So tradition where it came and I see a lot of participation, are very important, generation, younger people want especially from my too, they want to get closer to rediscover this stuff hope that this passion turns into to this world, and I because it’s really important. We something concrete, to anyone who needs or always try to be available lucky to work here and to have wants our help. We’re one of a kind, and we this place that is completely with people who have real want to share this fortune Collaborating with as many people desire and passion. as possible is very important to me. business? EB: What do your friends say about your on boats, do Do they come visit you? Do they go out row, or do they have those they row, do they Venetian fiberglass boats with powerful engines? real ET: No, I must say that there has been a to buy resurgence. There are people who love up and then neglected little “topetta” boats, fix them very happy go out in them. I see this a lot and I’m from the water, living about it, because seeing Venice world, even it on the water is a completely different from a rowboat with only the sound just seeing Venice is something of water and nothing else around you by that must that... the people who don’t get excited have a heart of stone! you were EB: (‘Laughs’) Then, among other things, telling us earlier about how one of the typical characteristics of the “squero” is this coexistence with the water, which goes up and down like a shoreline, in a certain sense. The subtitle of our podcast is "stories from an urban lagoon", and what better way to encapsulate that concept than a “squero” that is naturally and regularly invaded by the water of the lagoon, only to withdraw again, it’s a halfway point, a kind of amphibious environment. ET: Exactly, in fact we always wait for the high tide to haul and launch the gondolas so that we can use as little effort as possible, since we still use the old-style rollers... EB: So you like high tide unlike the rest of the city... ET: Within reason yes, we like it! EB: Did you suffer any damage during the “acqua alta” flooding? ET: Some, yes, we decided to fix things little by little, “con calma”... On that note I really wanted to ask, what version EB: On that note I really wanted to ask, what version from the have you seen in recent years, of Venice perspective of a tradition like yours, an ancient tradition that you are strongly linked to not just in an emotional sense, but also because the gondola Often in this is an almost iconic element of Venice… podcast we have talked about how some symbols of lend themselves to multiple interpretations, Venice because they are often appropriated, sometimes trivialized. Just saying the word "gondola" conjures up a range of ideas, from that of a souvenir to the images from an old film, and yet behind all this there is a very slow process, a love for materials and attention. How I personally made “con calma” (calmly) my ET: I personally made “con calma” (calmly) my philosophy: rushing never leads to anything good, calmness is the right counselor, you need to ponder, understand, to avoid being hasty in making decisions is slow, and I or doing something rash. So yes, Venice would never live anywhere other than Venice. Is it a kind of slowness that you can also take take EB: Is it a kind of slowness that you can also it in any way into the other activities in your life? Does inspire a different type of attitude towards your daily life, or does it clash with the fast pace of our modern society? Our dad built one, at most two a year. They’re They’re ET: Our dad built one, at most two a year. during the "high built during the winter because later, painting and the season" as they say, there’s the whole basically one maintenance phase of the gondolas, so even though or two a year. Today, on the other hand, a certain we don’t build gondolas, there’s nonetheless of a gondola, slowness involved even in the painting for the paint to there are times when you have to wait, calm, you can dry, for a little resin to dry... So it’s very calmly, and organize your work without any real rush, that’s where patience is essential. That’s certainly an interesting point. Another interesting point. Another EB: That’s certainly an you mentioned earlier, interesting point, which involved in the job. Even in concerns the timescales of Nowtilus, our guests have our previous episodes these multiple possible Venices, told us about these that exist, and the unique Venice different versions of special to this city. How long sense of time that is How many does it take to build a gondola on average? - I know you gondolas could be built at full capacity how many don’t build any for now - but at full capacity, could a “squero” like yours build in a year? Musical interlude - Mauro Sambo, "From Giudecca to Mauro Sambo, "From Giudecca to Musical interlude - Campana Island" (2020) I think it may have been a bit of a surprise, and and surprise, a bit of a been it may have ET: I think was anyone find that we didn’t to say that I have for it either. nor particularly it, but against particularly had path, obviously we ahead on our own We went to do it’s difficult supported us, because people who are opinion that words but I am of the on your own, count more. empty, facts OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 9 53 amazes you. At any time of day, in any season, go to go to any season, of day, in any time you. At amazes never you’ve see something and you’ll the sandbanks feel good, you the sandbanks, Amongst before... seen lots of though there are and quiet, even there’s peace there in the summer. “tavanelle” our “tavanelle” are to Let’s explain what EB: (‘Laughs’) listeners! non-Venetian and they are awful! ET: They’re horseflies, sting! EB: Because they really flowers that cover the ET: But when those purple it really is a magical place... sandbanks are in bloom, Tramontin, good luck to Elena EB: Thank you to Elena Tramontin for the future in this and also to Elisabetta say goodbye. wonderful tradition, but now we must Thanks again for being with us! ET: Thank you! Giudecca to Musical interlude - Mauro Sambo, "From Campana Island" (2020) this episode EB: Welcome back to the second part of second part, of Nowtilus. As we said earlier, in this who for we’ll be in the company of Silvio Testa, and many years was a journalist for the Gazzettino but also has always been not only an enthusiast, and sailing an authoritative voice for both rowing Venetian practices of the Upper Adriatic and the Testa! Lagoon in particular. Welcome to Silvio Silvio Testa (ST): Thanks for the invitation! EB: With Silvio Testa we’ll be talking about and considering traditional watercraft in the lagoon, boats, “vela al terzo”, all these themes, which - correct me if I’m wrong - have almost become icons of this area. immediately one thinks When one thinks of Venice, as we saw in perhaps, of the gondola... As Venetians the first part of the episode, we understand just how much effort goes into building a gondola, the level of craftsmanship, what a gondola really represents, but maybe for the rest of the world it’s little more than a plastic souvenir. What do you think? ST: Undoubtedly, rowing and the practice of “vela al terzo” could be considered two symbols of resilience. The attempt by a minority within the city to maintain practices linked to tradition, and above all something that’s compatible with the city and the lagoon. Places in which, unfortunately, diametrically opposite phenomena are also manifesting themselves, making the practice of the most noble of activities somewhat problematic. EB: Let’s explain for our listeners, because perhaps understand, don’t fully people who aren’t from Venice Well, it reminds me a little of the origins of this ET: Well, it reminds me a little of the origins of this place. Torcello was the first settlement and has a and the very important role in the history of Venice, sandbanks around it, there’s this fragility that always What does such an ancient place and such a EB: What does such an ancient place and such a peculiar environment like that of Torcello and its sandbanks offer to a young person like yourself? A place in Venice that I really love is Torcello and and that I really love is Torcello ET: A place in Venice its surrounding sandbanks. When I’m there I really feel good, I feel really peaceful. We are coming towards the end of our chat, EB: We are coming towards the end of our chat, and there’s a question we always ask our guests on Nowtilus, and that is: Which place or Venetian situation is closest to your heart, Elena Tramontin? Not including this place, which I imagine would be your first answer, we can clearly see that from what you have said so far. At the moment everything has stopped to a certain to a certain ET: At the moment everything has stopped extent, this COVID problem has kind of stopped everything, but we are always available and willing to collaborate and learn everything we can. EB: Is this something you are working on? I am of the opinion that collaboration is important, is important, ET: I am of the opinion that collaboration own ways, because everyone can contribute in their knowledge, they can offer their points of view, their new or and together you can always create something In my opinion, improve something that already exists. but collaboration is essential, not just in shipbuilding, in every aspect of life. And from a professional point of view, how do you how do you EB: And from a professional point of view, see collaborating in the future? I think and I hope that there is more awareness there is more awareness ET: I think and I hope that really is. Because everything that around what Venice important: it is not just tourism, it represents is Venice it’s something that has to grow and is not just tradition, has a respect. So I think Venice live together in mutual also be a place of exchange, as it bright future, it can and meeting point, a cultural was in the past, a starting treasure chest, if you manage to nerve center. It’s a really lovely, especially for people adapt to it, it can be live here in who decide, like me and my sister, to after a it’s a challenge, but you miss Venice Venice; away... I have while, you miss the brine, you can’t stay faith in the future. Let’s talk some more about Venice. You are very very You are Venice. more about talk some EB: Let’s for this vital force a new and represent so you young, kind of perception what business, Beyond your city. it do you perceive you have, or how do of Venice few months that have these strange last now after on nature of our cities, reflect on the made everyone sort to be a of Venice and on the potential slowness, the future? of city for OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 9 54 to the lagoon. This opens up another interesting interesting up another This opens lagoon. to the notable of these born did an event how discourse, become over time then qualities environmentalistic the say that nowadays event? Let’s such a touristy and by the Venetians, neglected event is somewhat in rowing boats that filled with tourists is instead the world. come from all over basically this is a phenomenon that EB: Sorry to interrupt you, our episodes of Nowtilus we have over the course of with, this continuous confusion, become rather familiar of the real image of Venice, this continuous mirroring perceived, described. The tale the image that is sold, continue to swap of Venice and the identity of Venice succession that sometimes it’s places in such rapid which. It’s sort of like in quantum hard to tell which is move so fast that their position physics, when particles can’t be determined... ST: Yes, yes, it really is a perverse mechanism, is contorting itself, because in reality Venice of itself that essentially for profit, into the kitsch image sunset, the exists throughout the world: the romantic is the clearest moon, the gondola. The gondola really of its black, emblem of this mechanism. If you think it with the refined, elegant image and then compare which are gondolas that now move around the canals, gold and so a sort of Baroque pomp of patterns and you understand on, and which resemble a Sicilian cart, the kind of regression that the city is experiencing. I think of Sometimes I have this paradoxical thought, this city over how much effort was required to build how much the centuries, that is, how much sorrow, how many pain, how many wars, how many deaths, if those sacrifices, and so on. And I always wonder, city, would people knew what had happened to the they ever have done all that hard work? EB: That really is a paradoxical question, but it certainly makes you think… We have mentioned “vela al terzo” a few times now, would you mind very briefly telling us what it is? ST: Yes, so basically it’s a traditional kind of sailing, which came about in the Upper Adriatic between the late-seventeenth and early-eighteenth centuries, when flat-bottomed lagoon boats were adapted for deep sea fishing, a phenomenon particularly linked to Chioggia, where this type of activity would continue to develop due to economic factors that would take too long to explain. The “vela al terzo” is a type of gaff sail, by that I mean a quadrangular sail, which is the kind of sail that is best suited to balancing boats with a flat bottom in sailing. EB: Why is it called “al terzo” (the third)? ST: It’s not really clear. In the past it was called "trabacolo". A "trabacolo" is a boat used for transporting wood and stone, which used this type of sail and was common from the Adriatic all the way sustainability sustainability Yes, if you are referring to the “Vogalonga” in in ST: Yes, if you are referring to the “Vogalonga” just as a particular, that theme is important. So when little side note: the “Vogalonga” was started ended, which the "Front for the Defense of Venice" will remember. It perhaps some of the older generation that developed was a form of proto-environmentalism after the “Acqua Granda” floods of 1966, in Venice and which took a stand against the excavation and opening of the “canale dei petroli”. So we’re talking about the end of the sixties, the seventies. A proto- environmentalist movement that resulted in an apparent victory, with the first special law 173 in 1971, which then remained largely unimplemented, but it was essentially the first national, and perhaps international, The problem”. recognition of the so-called “Venice in leaders of the "Front for the defense of Venice", particular the first Rosa Salva, who was essentially the soul of the movement, asked themselves how it was possible that out in the lagoon, just one and a half kilometers away from the Zattere and Giudecca, the environmental fabric was essentially being destroyed without anyone noticing or without even the slightest concern. So Pino attempted to find a way to bring that the back to the lagoon, to ensure the Venetians lagoon was not seen as separate from the city, but was fully part of it. The idea came to Pino’s son, Paolo Rosa Salva, at the same time as another thought also at the Gazzettino occurred to the editor of the Venice time, Delfo Utimpergher. The idea was to organize a rowing event, a marathon, like the “Marcialonga”, like the “Vasaloppet”, which would bring the Venetians It’s less widespread and yet not too many years years EB: It’s less widespread and yet not too many was actually a ago, let’s say about fifty years ago, it right? driving force of sustainable initiatives, that is less widespread with rowing. I can’t give you an exact number. The total number exact number. The total number ST: I can’t give you an rowing clubs throughout Venice, of members of the area into account, will be also taking the lagoon thousand people I guess. And around three or four about 120 to 130 boat owners there are currently al terzo”. What does this tell us? It registered for “vela are essentially recreational means that both practices of exercise, just as on the land activities. It is a form jogging or cycling are forms of going to the gym or between “vela exercise. Perhaps there is a difference I get al terzo” and rowing, at least in my experience. who practice the impression that among the people what this is “vela al terzo” - soon I’ll explain exactly of why the - there is maybe a little more awareness of ​​ activity is practiced, there is this idea maybe they think that we all go to work on rowing rowing work on all go to that we they think maybe every through run maybe gondolas or that boats, giving without a proportion, Let’s estimate canal. would be difficult which of course precise numbers, is of people practice what percentage to ascertain, you - which perhaps sailing, “vela al terzo” rowing or other later - and on the into in more detail will delve motor boats? percentage use hand, what OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 9 55 how the city is bowing down to the kitsch image image kitsch to the bowing down the city is how our of the beginning about at talking we were conversation. of traditional do you see the future EB: So, how with could be entrusted in the lagoon? Who watercraft in the use of traditional raising awareness the task of this other things - and methods? Among boats and has frequently emerged in our is also a theme that - these practices convey a sense episodes of Nowtilus and of tranquility in life, of slowness, sustainability, have unfortunately experienced something that we during the lockdown, and which perhaps unwittingly us with a slower pace of life to have also reconnected some degree. admirable practices are at risk, ST: Today I think these some way already compromised, and are perhaps in of love with there is already a sense of falling out the traffic them. Going out to the lagoon with all moment of that we see today, instead of being a of anger peace and relaxation, becomes a source local and nervousness. Let’s say that informed issue. How? administrations should be tackling this a normal city; it’s clear that on the By making Venice cars, mainland there are incompatibilities between but they buses, trucks, motorcycles and the bicycle, that are all coexist because there is a set of rules and there enforced, perhaps even dedicated routes, of the rules of is widespread awareness. Violations happens, and the road are rare. Here, the opposite is stealing. It suppression is difficult when everyone the police or is no longer a problem that concerns sanctions for bad behaviour... listeners, EB: Let’s quickly elaborate on that for our you alluded who is stealing? Because let’s face it, to theft, but in reality what you’re talking about are infringements of the water traffic rules required for coexistence. ST: The rules designed to protect traditional watercraft go out into are totally unknown. If you here in Venice the lagoon it’s like the Wild West, there are 14-year- olds with real weapons in their hands, by that I mean modified forty-horsepower engines that are actually seventy-horsepower, taxis, motorboats, even the recreational traffic... there’s no awareness of the risks, so much so that there are often deaths out in this placid lagoon, nor any awareness of the environmental damage that is inflicted upon this important habitat. Earlier you were speaking of slowness, slowness unfortunately presupposes the education required to grasp the beauty of the things you see when traveling peacefully through an environment that is utterly unique. Racing at seventy kilometers per hour to get to Chioggia in a quarter of an hour, and then getting there and doing something without having enjoyed the journey at all... that’s just silly. EB: Can the schools do anything about all of this? ​​ Of course, the Red Regatta project by the ST: Of course, the Red Regatta project by the American artist Melissa McGill, who conceived of this performance involving the “vela al terzo” association, taking place over the course of four events in which about sixty “vela al terzo” boats took part. The unique thing about the performance was that all the boats had red sails, but not exactly the same red for all sixty, each sail was a particular shade of red. For Melissa, and for the partners who joined the project, the idea of ST: It is also the color of anger, the anger at seeing So it was like a coat of arms that could be EB: So it was like a coat of arms that could be recognized. Incidentally, recently there was an artistic project involving these colored sails, let’s talk about that very briefly, because we are coming towards the last part of our chat. EB: And it’s a very iconic colour here too. Earlier you said that there are about 100 or 150 there are about 100 or 150 EB: Earlier you said that kind of boat. We were talking people who own this before, famous for its simplicity, about the gondola different colors... these boats on the other hand are all saying that ST: Yes, this is part of the tradition. I was in Chioggia. It this type of sail was essentially invented to color the was traditional for the Chioggiotti people one is that the sails, for two pretty practical reasons: two because it colored sail kept better over time, and that the was recognizable from a distance. Consider months at fishing companies could stay out for even and concern a time, just try to imagine the suffering so being able of the families who were back on land, back in to immediately see your loved one coming of great relief. by recognizing the sail was a moment was such that Furthermore, the organization of fishing boats, the companies of “bragozzi”, typical fishing there was no remained at sea but the fish, seeing as every day way to preserve them, were brought ashore manned these by smaller boats, and the people that fishing company. boats had to be able to find their own According to the wind conditions and so forth, they knew where they would be, more or less, but then it was a question of recognizing them... red was intended to represent passion, risk, danger... Musical interlude - Mauro Sambo, "From Giudecca to Mauro Sambo, "From Giudecca to Musical interlude - Campana Island" (2020) So this “terzo”, this ‘third’, turns up in some ‘third’, turns up in some EB: So this “terzo”, this places… to Greece. Then at a certain point, this new definition definition this new point, at a certain Then to Greece. things: one to two linked is perhaps hold, which took in the way I mean by that the “brezza”, fact that is the one third of the length sail is hoisted, is at which the The second is because part of the sail. of the upper the the mast that fits into mast - that is, the “calcese” of the from the stern the boat - is one third bottom of boat. OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 9 56 . A warm farewell Spotify or iTunes. A warm farewell and was later reprocessed. So thank you to Mauro Mauro you to So thank reprocessed. later and was A big thank audio contribution. beautiful for this Sambo — Academy to TBA21 for listening all of you you to for the ninth episode Ocean Space, Venice, Radio from 21st urban lagoon in the Stories from an of “Nowtilus. and Enrico Bettinello a podcast edited by century”, with Graziano Sartori, in collaboration Alice Ongaro all You can listen to for post-production. Meneghin on ocean-archive.org, or follow episodes of Nowtilus us on Soundcloud, Enrico Bettinello. to all of you from me, Enrico Coniglio, "Saltland" (2020) Musical interlude - This is how lagoons work, whether modified EB: This is how lagoons work, whether modified by man or nature, change is always inevitable. I thank Silvio Testa very much for being with us in this episode. Thanks to Mauro Sambo, whose music we have been listening to in the form of an excerpt from a very recent piece that was created exclusively for Nowtilus. It was made using the recordings from a long journey rowing from Giudecca to the island of Campana, an island of the southern lagoon, just to reconnect with what Silvio Testa was talking about, Let’s say that my favorite place is the lagoon, the ST: Let’s say that my favorite place is the lagoon, the southern lagoon more so than the northern lagoon, although that is actually the more compromised part, because in reality it has larger spaces and as a result it has become a sort of arm of the sea, due to the erosion triggered by the deepening of the “canale dei petroli”. However, this also allows for easier navigation. It’s a bit of a paradox in that this sort of damage has in fact become the thing that draws people to the area. EB: We ask everyone, so it’s your turn too ... ST: Eh, good question ... But we will have to keep pushing. Before you were you were EB: But we will have to keep pushing. Before “Acqua Granda” talking about the city’s reaction to the another floods in 1966. We have recently experienced maybe a new “Acqua Granda”, and with COVID too, that aspects awareness could be reborn. I also believe important from of traditional watercraft could be very to chat an identity point of view. We could continue the end of for a long time, but we are approaching to you the episode. However, we can’t say goodbye is, which place without asking the usual question, that heart, Silvio Testa? is closest to your Venetian Of course, schools and the administration the administration and schools ST: Of course, must the two things opinion in my because together, as long a big effect, have they could in hand, go hand last. project that can a shared long-term as there is in Some organizations a one-off project. It can’t be the lack of attention tried to step up given have Venice the for example of the administrations, on the part except for twenty years, Rowing Club, which Giudecca to some issues, has carried out for the last two due a School". Every year they a project called "Row 400 elementary and middle school introduced 350 to to whom we first gave lectures in kids to rowing, and the lagoon is, the fragility of the class explaining what it has with a certain type lagoon, and the relationship which are flat-bottomed, in other of boat, our boats, are used here and nowhere words why these boats were taught to row. It was a real else. And then they some results even if they effort, but it has produced 350 or weren’t the results we hoped for. Of these believe that in 400 children who took up the oars, I stayed on and the end you can count how many have on the fingers of continued to take part in the practice one hand. NOWTILUS EPISODE 10 57

iTunes and Google Podcasts. issues and projects concerning urban regeneration for issues and projects concerning urban regeneration for many years, and then in the second part of our episode we will be talking to Laura Mascino, an architect who has also dealt with social housing for a long time, and who works professionally on issues relating to regeneration. But for now, let’s welcome Giancarlo Ghigi, welcome! Giancarlo Ghigi (GG): Thank you. EB: So Giancarlo, we could discuss many issues with you, but first of all I would like to ask you to tell us about one of the projects concerning our city that has gained a lot of public interest in recent years, the “Poveglia per tutti” (“Poveglia for all”) project, a project Spotify, SoundCloud,

You’re listening to “Nowtilus. Enrico Bettinello (EB): You’re listening to “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century”, a Betinello It’s Enrico podcast by Ocean Space, Venice. here, welcoming you aboard “Nowtilus”, stories, thoughts, notes, and issues concerning the rethinking we’re talking today. In our tenth episode, of Venice about urban regeneration, about residence and tourism, and about the dynamic between spaces and the communities that pass through them. This is a hot it together and we’ll be discussing topic in Venice, with Giancarlo Ghigi, who has been dealing with these Intro Music - Enrico Coniglio, “Saltland” (2020) TBA21—Academy Radio

AND THE LAND AND THE with Giancarlo Ghigi and Laura Mascino Available from October 19th 2020, 4pm TBA21-Academy Radio on Ocean Archive,

THE WATER THE WATER REINHABITING Episode 10 OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 10 58 state opened the envelopes, they realized that these that these realized they envelopes, opened the state so they and than expected, lower were much figures for bids the call declared pause and on put Poveglia a first success, because We saw this as null and void. has remained accessible six years the island in the last but it has also this kind of mobilization, thanks to been because we haven’t of a failure, been something a the state to go down a way to convince able to find wanted and still want to create an different route. We could potentially contribute example of how Poveglia it an integral part of the urban to the city, we consider fabric of the city. for the people who might EB: Right, so let’s explain this island - which you can not be so familiar with it’s quite close to Malamocco, even see from the Lido, on the Lido - what is Poveglia, which is a small town represent in an urban lagoon, and what can Poveglia our listeners, or a concept that will now be familiar to water and the in this continuous dialogue between the represent, what stone of our city? What does Poveglia Can you briefly is it, how long has it been abandoned? what a explain to help the people listening understand wonderful place we are talking about? to define GG: Well actually I often find myself trying fabric, if we it. Poveglia is truly a part of the urban 800 inhabitants, think about its history it used to have to one of the so it was a place that can be compared as Murano or smaller inhabited islands today, such function has Burano. In fact, over the centuries its to serving changed from being a multipurpose place, of Poveglia just a single one, and the last real purpose weakened was that of a geriatric hospital. This greatly this type of its ability to adapt to small changes in it to fall back community space, and in fact this caused on its historical function. EB: It seems to me that it is a sort of common thread a kind of that connects all the islands of Venice, monoculture, even from a visual perspective. When you think of Murano, you think about glass, when you think of Burano, you think of course about lace, and when older people think of the other smaller islands, which have now been transformed into hotels or other destinations in the southern lagoon, they were in fact previously home to hospital facilities of various kinds for long-term patients, or in the case of San Servolo for the mentally disabled. It’s something of a common trait... GG: Maybe it stems from the lazarets, by that I mean from the idea that these islands were perfect for serving single purposes, or were necessarily suited to a specific function. In reality this is a weakness. “Poveglia per tutti” hasn’t wasted the last six years in vain waiting for the state to give an answer. We have analyzed this fragility and we have tried to initiate a process of repurposing and regeneration that goes in the opposite direction, towards multifunctionality. ​​ winning at auction never even crossed winning at auction never even crossed GG: The idea of ​​ our minds, because we know that unfortunately the kind of capital involved in the construction of a large hotel is in a different league. But the notion of EB: And yet it didn’t help with acquiring the island? We raised 478,000 Euros, which is a pretty nice GG: We raised 478,000 Euros, which is a pretty nice figure. EB: How much did you manage to raise? The island of Poveglia belongs to the state and state and GG: The island of Poveglia belongs to the it as being was put up for sale - well, we understood lease up for sale, but it was actually a ninety-nine-year state to transfer - in 2014 following an attempt by the which didn’t the property to the Municipality of Venice, the market. We work out, so they decided to put it on that all the saw this news and, outraged by the fact become islands of the southern lagoon had already could be hotels, we decided that a popular takeover price, this led a solution. Since there was no starting each putting us to say, “well, let’s all try to participate, success in in a little money”. This was an unexpected to gather the lagoon, and in a short time we managed points thousands of people together, with seven In fact, we around the city issuing membership cards. operations of owe a lot to the urban and commercial the city which acted as a catalyst for registrations, and in a short time we reached almost 5,000 members, something that has been regarded as the most powerful example of social crowdfunding in Italy, at least in terms of the amount of money raised. challenging these giants with a slingshot was what inspired us, we said: “let’s aim for a symbolic figure”. Then in reality, during the first phase of the auction we managed to place a bid of 160,000, which made the large international groups give up, and the only group that remained was the Umana group, which had invested 513,000 euros. Let’s say that when the Why was it up for sale, who did it belong to? Who to? Who EB: Why was it up for sale, who did it belong does it belong to? First of all, hello to everyone listening. The everyone listening. The GG: First of all, hello to project started one day by “Poveglia per tutti” we opened a newspaper and chance at a bar, when island of Poveglia was going discovered that the casually, together with the up for sale. So, rather about twenty other people we owner of the bar and an evening of conversation to this decided to dedicate opportunity. focussed on the island of Poveglia, which, for listeners for listeners which, Poveglia, island of on the focussed in the island is a beautiful know Venice, might not who for many been uninhabited that has lagoon southern us will perhaps tell as Giancarlo Ghigi years and, really and a place that abandoned, now, is completely did this project come reconsidered. How should be And what was Poveglia, what exactly is it? about and it be in the future? what could OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 10 59 What kind of picture emerges from the data you you the data from picture emerges kind of EB: What What the years? over and analyzed collected have - it is lot of talk There’s a current situation? is the the often covered in a theme that is also obviously about the depopulation press - not only international high number of which has lost a very of Venice, «over tourism», which but also the idea of residents, the this situation with been frozen by has currently certainly the idea that most of the pandemic, however, been converted into tourist rentals city’s houses have by many people, because is a topic that is debated many people, but also because it’s a topic that affects that’s happening to other tourist it’s also something the world. So what sort of picture destinations around analysis? emerges from your about 36,000 apartments GG: First of all, there are 6 and 9 thousand of these are in the city. Between the data rented out to tourists. Trying to reconstruct the proportion based on the plausible assumption that is comparable to the that own their homes of Venetians period in which rest of Italy, this means that over the residential these tourist leases have emerged, the that the two leases have significantly decreased, or hypothesis have been somehow cannibalized. This available is also confirmed by the most recent data turns out to from the tourist rental portals, which now a house in the be one of the main problems of finding COVID crisis, city. It is no coincidence that during the freed up, and numerous tourist apartments have been leases, are now becoming available for residential decline or had which up until a year ago had been in is the public completely disappeared. The other sector be analyzed. offering, and this too absolutely must houses and pass EB: We always talk about Venetian all these through the squares and streets and see beautiful places with all their window shutters closed. According to your analysis, how many publicly owned homes are currently unused? GG: Reconstructing this data is really difficult, because the listings aren’t transparent. Let’s say that a public figure was provided by INSULA in 2017, which states that more than 1000 public apartments owned by the municipality are empty. Perhaps some of these are being restructured, but in fact the public offering has contracted considerably due to the absence of strategic national resources for the “housing” sector. problem? EB: So this is not just a Venetian GG: Unfortunately it is a problem faced by all historical centers in Italy. Italy invests one fortieth of France and one seventy-second of England for the housing sector. EB: Given that we are now in this situation with very little international mobility due to the pandemic, and the difficulties that are facing many tourist cities and all the businesses that are based around the movement of people, could this situation, in your As an association that is part of the Venetian GG: As an association that is part of the Venetian on the situation civic fabric, we realized that the data was actually rather relating to housing in Venice and some scattered, there was no collection point, cases were effectively rejected by the administration. We found out that the public watchdogs on housing had all been dissolved, the last one was the and the watchdog in 2012, Municipality of Venice penultimate one was COSES in 2008, so in fact we had no way of keeping an eye on the housing situation do was not to We felt that the best thing to in Venice. ask the institutions, because they are severely lacking in national funding for housing plans, but instead to try to manage it ourselves, while maintaining a very high research profile, so that the data was incontrovertible and wasn’t mixed up with opinions. In order to do this, we initially did three days of self-training to understand which areas to investigate - many people got involved with these activities - and in the end we decided that we had to confront three sectors that policies private and public to relevant particularly were on housing: the first is residential housing, which in is tourist covers 11% of the market; the second Venice rentals, which has multiplied in the city in recent years; and the third sector is social housing or housing projects. These are the three sectors that we covered, and in the near future we will also tackle student rentals and student houses. So, one of the projects you have been working on working on EB: So, one of the projects you have been co-founder, is in recent years, and of which you are a just now, you a project that - and as you were saying so it seems haven’t stood still, and we can see that, points - it’s to me that analysis is one of your strong and analysis, another project that involves observation people who called “OCIO”, a word that perhaps even will recognise as meaning not aren’t from Venice Venetian only “eye”, but also “be careful!”, a typical watchdog on expression, and this is the name of the watchdog do, housing and residency. What does this and residency, housing have you learned about and what topics, but also which incidentally are not only very hot extremely current from a regeneration perspective. Musical interlude - Giulio Aldinucci, “Autofocus” Giulio Aldinucci, “Autofocus” Musical interlude - (2011) The first thing we would like to do is turn a a is turn like to do we would first thing GG: The urban park, which of the island into an large part between the water that relationship can rebuild neglected even that has often been and the land example, it would administration. For by the local center of Venice children of the historic allow the works within the city, or to see how agriculture a small weekly market for it could accommodate there are many ideas based zero-kilometer produce, are nine universities that have around Poveglia. There to build a participatory and declared their willingness with the “Poveglia per tutti” project. active relationship What can be done on this island? done on this can be EB: What OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 10 60 Ah, but it is, it’s a question that by definition definition that by a question but it is, it’s EB: Ah, answer! a subjective requires little patches of up of all these is made GG: Venice and islands, hundred-or-so surrounding land and its is a space between own micro islands one of my on is near my house and the private that the public can meet up, where we where friends can Giudecca, of sociality that really share the kinds of moments of research, it’s an area on justify doing this type share with you, so the location Giudecca that I won’t can’t be revealed... because otherwise it would be EB: We won’t reveal it, A big thank you to Giancarlo under siege immediately! us aboard Nowtilus! Ghigi, thanks for joining GG: Thank you too. Musical interlude - Giulio Aldinucci, “Autofocus” (2011) of EB: And now in the second part of this episode an architect Nowtilus, we welcome Laura Mascino, has been who deals with social housing, and who long time. working on regeneration issues for a Welcome Laura! Laura Mascino (LM): Thank you and hello. for EB: Laura has been dealing with these themes about some time and in fact, beyond just thinking has also these issues, in recent years Laura’s work which materialized in the form of a cultural project, which was later followed by the publisher Donzelli, One is called resulted in the publishing of two books. and the other “Riabitare l’Italia” (Reinhabiting Italy), slightly smaller one is called “Manifesto per riabitare l’Italia” (Manifesto for reinhabiting Italy), books in which there are various contributions towards this theme. Laura Mascino is one of the people who contributed to these books, and in the manifesto in particular, she is also the author of the entry on “regeneration”, because the manifesto - and maybe shortly you will tell us about this - is almost a sort of manual, a vocabulary to understand the key words on these issues. And so now I’m compelled to ask you, what are the key and pivotal points of this “Reinhabiting Italy” project? LM: “Riabitare l’Italia” was started in 2017 when we felt the need to bring together a group of people including researchers, professors, and scholars who had all worked on projects and studies relating to regeneration in very varied fields, to put them all together and reconstruct a study that represented several different points of view. Because when we talk about regeneration, it’s not that we are talking about redevelopment or architectural regeneration, we are talking about a process that involves scholars who might be anthropologists, sociologists, economists, Well, the answer is quite simple for me, but GG: Well, the answer is quite simple for me, but maybe it will seem a little too subjective ... Well, I’d like to say thank you very much because EB: Well, I’d like to say thank you very much because you have been very precise and clear, and you’ve painted a picture that - and I’ll repeat this, if you see for - our listeners can google “Ocio Venezia” themselves, because all the data you have collected is of course available to everyone. But time is running out and unfortunately we’ll soon have to say goodbye, but before we do that, I’d like to ask you which place is closest to your heart in the city of Venice? The watchdog has already found some cases cases GG: The watchdog has already found some sites - you that we have documented on the OCIO " - we can find the sites by googling "Ocio Venezia that have documented examples of multinationals up apartments differentiate their portfolios by buying considering it something of a safe haven, in Venice, best practices with respect to market movements. The without in this situation are not particularly simple or subsidized public action. Of the attempts at social we have housing from the nineties up to 2010, unsuccessful. found that in 98% of cases they were at creative Because it was essentially an attempt public offer finance and either it didn’t live up to the by market that was promised, or it was reabsorbed mechanisms. I believe that by analyzing the holes in the plans that have been made in the past, for social housing and subsidized housing, and by trying to understand which practices among these have been successful, a solution can be found for the middle class. But a strategic solution for the city needs to be found above all for the lower middle classes, because the right distribution of income can strengthen the fabric of the city. Having only a few social classes living in the city weakens it. Is this a real danger? Are there already signs that signs that EB: Is this a real danger? Are there already not yet this might happen, or is this type of threat looming over Venice? So this represents the next chapter, which would chapter, which would the next GG: So this represents but it a few minutes, to summarize in just be difficult chapter of possible scenarios. has to be done: the options, to put it very simply. A I basically see two policies restart a housing scenario in which public less “doped” than the market that is significantly by the tourist offering; current one, less drugged-up the relegation of the “do-it- and a scenario in which sector leaves spaces open for yourself” tourist rental hoarders, who differentiate international apartment up pieces of the territory and their portfolios by buying into luxury hotels. transforming them opinion, constitute a basis for change? Do you see any any you see Do for change? a basis constitute opinion, this issue? rethinking to start allow us that might signs is, what position what your to ask I’d also like And be that you think might practices or ideas are the best area? consideration in this worthy of OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 10 61 connect a city like Venice, which is certainly not an not an certainly which is like Venice, a city connect fragile areas many contain which does area, but inland of discourse? this type it, with within that when “Manifesto” we underlined LM: Within the about we are also talking fragile areas, we talk about that once had a very the city, places places inside that in structure, places a very unified unified identity, perhaps emptied and have been recent decades have meaning, finding themselves emptied of their original these places areas. In Venice becoming very fragile historical center, but also in many exist not only in the mainland, therefore in the places on the Venetian area, and there is a concentration entire metropolitan central areas, such as in Mestre, of these places in the Let’s say center of Venice. as well as in the historical COVID, while everything is at a that right now, with economy linked to tourism has standstill and the huge has been revealed, stopped, the real fragility of Venice I was walking and its impact is huge. The other day weren’t behind San Marco, the bars and restaurants So the closed, but there were no residents around. the fragility monoculture of tourism has highlighted of a fragile of this place, so we can absolutely speak most tourism- place especially when it comes to the centric areas. Musical interlude - Giulio Aldinucci, “Autofocus” (2011) and EB: Of the many activities that you have been some are still involved in, would you mind sharing help us examples that might be interesting to that arise understand the practices and dynamics that, in your from within the community? Examples could also set opinion, represent good practices that potential of an example, giving us an indication the these areas, which as you said, extend to the wider lagoon and to the mainland, which actually have a and much stronger relationship with the city of Venice its lagoon than we are often led to believe. LM: In recent years I have been dealing with the attempts or the desire to revitalize parts of the territory by various active citizenship groups, and I must say that the city as a whole is full of these sorts of attempts. So it appears there’s great strength, great energy, and a great chance to work on this territory. I was lucky enough to follow some of them... EB: Tell us about the luckiest, or the best example, in your opinion. LM: The best are probably the ones I believe in the most. For example there are these groups of young farmers, based on both the mainland and in the lagoon, and I found the same people on the island of Sant’Erasmo. It’s a large group called “Terraferma” which involves the large area near the Terraglio. Between them they have a very strong network. Agricultural production has seen the arrival of something that has changed its way of something that has changed its way of a process rather than just a project that needs to be a process rather than just a project that needs to be While you were telling us about these concepts EB: While you were telling us about these concepts very eloquently, I associated a couple of words with the situation facing this “urban lagoon”, which is what is certainly a here on Nowtilus. One we call Venice which is word that’s in the title: “Reinhabiting Venice”, a city that has long needed to be reinhabited, given the behind. The continuous flow of people leaving Venice other thing relates to these fragile areas, because the subtitle of the book “Riabitare l’Italia” refers to inland areas, which might not be inland geographically, but which might be fragile areas within historical centers, with a different sort of history from that of a small village in the mountains. How do you think we can started. being, something that has been weakened, which being, something that has been weakened, which needs to be restored, and that itself suggests the idea of ​​ Yes, but it carries with it a range of important LM: Yes, but it carries with it a range of important meanings, not just the architectural ones. It connotes the idea of ​​ EB: A little overused, sometimes even out of place... Yes, a brand new cultural association. And the And the LM: Yes, a brand new cultural association. a common second book arose from the need to build Italy”. vocabulary relating to the theme of “reinhabiting not only Words that therefore carve out their definition their as an explanation of a term, but also through design, almost a possibility of becoming an element of bit of a toolbox, tool. So it’s a vocabulary that’s also a these which can be used for people approaching written issues. There are two pieces in the “Manifesto” and the by me and Antonio De Rossi: one is “heritage”, is one of those other is “regeneration”. “Regeneration” almost lost words that, like “sustainability”, has now used, but I think its meaning because of the way it gets been a bit it’s a very important word, despite it having in all sorts of diluted, and a word that we come across speeches… EB: On a national scale? urban planners, historians, but also people who work who work people but also historians, planners, urban deal with So we the environment. or with in forestry within perhaps which of disciplines, range a whole still Italy, but they don’t completely reinhabit the book group This brilliant own voice nonetheless. find their life to this first book, and it has given was created, the basically talk about l’Italia”, where we “Riabitare especially places the revival of places, regeneration, We started with inland that have been abandoned. actually characterize the areas, even if our thoughts we started from these internal whole country, however regeneration of and experimentation of places as areas value; the inland areas become that have the most and in this first text we all places of experimentation, cultural project then carried worked together. This become a group, which among on, and we have now become a “Riabitare l’Italia” other things has also association. OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 10 62 is not what would be considered a classic approach approach a classic be considered what would is not is which sake, for redevelopment’s to redevelopment but much debated, that is of the issues one obviously focus more on people, that seems to it’s a process and local materials, on stone and wood rather than right? that really highlights right, and LM: You’re absolutely term regeneration, which the importance of the projects of the nineties or the contrasts with the in which you could see the beginning of the 2000s, done on the redevelopment of main work was being for something to move in to them, heritage sites, only this monoculture of tourism and we ended up with because our heritage sites everywhere. Everywhere, but there have been no new have been redeveloped, do with them. We’ve arrived at ideas about what to process where the rehabilitation this inverse type of knowing or regeneration process is started without without where it will end. The process is triggered end, taking having control of it right through to the to them the variables into account and adapting spaces, from time to time. This also happens with know what I start with a space, but I don’t exactly with “DD- the evolution of space will look like. Even then it also Social” we started with the garden, but Maybe became a sort of apartment for the elderly. exactly what now it will grow, without us knowing has to be said: will happen in advance. But one thing very important. the architectural component becomes it’s true Because with these regenerative processes, also important to that the process is important, but it’s spaces that have identify the nature of certain spaces, for change. transformative qualities or the capacity were to EB: So, just to play devil’s advocate, if we about these things, they might tell some Venetians perhaps answer by saying, “Yes, that’s all well and good, but maybe you should have started with the living Venetians when there were still some Venetians here”. The fact is that the critical mass of citizens has been considerably weakened, because the number of citizens has decreased, and this creates a bit of doubt around whether there is even a community capable of actively caring for this sort of stuff. Part of the population has a kind of double link to the tourist monoculture, in both good and bad ways, but people certainly often say, “Let’s start with the citizens, when most of the citizens are now gone”. In your opinion, where do we find the human resources for this kind of opportunity for regeneration? LM: Your question just made me think about something has that I hadn’t really grasped before. Perhaps Venice experienced a sort of abandonment like what we’ve seen in the inland areas, in that there are increasingly fewer residents due to a number of factors. When they rebuild in the inland areas, they don’t tend to rebuild those communities with the people who lived there, or the few who still live there in mind. However, by creating situations and opportunities, people with That’s really interesting, and I get the sense that EB: That’s really interesting, and I get the sense that the approach you’re adopting with all of these projects LM: It’s in Dorsoduro, the project is called “DD- Social”. The interesting thing is that these are all low-cost projects, by that I mean the processes began with the bare minimum required to bring that place back into use, so without any real infrastructure, but perhaps with the introduction of temporary elements, such as wooden platforms, or by reintroducing a water supply, reopening the shutters, so that it the space be used safely. So my role as an architect is to make it usable, and then slowly reactivate it with internal work that represents reinhabiting it in a broader sense. EB: What area is it in? these new figures, of these new farmers who live live farmers who new of these new figures, these going industry to get this who want areas, in these types of new in creating strongly who believe again, zero- using the land, from and new ways of economies And farming, and so on. produce to organic kilometer we groups with whom is one of these “Terraferma” for the “production park” a project, a have developed a which seeks to create territory, agricultural Venetian an economy and contributing brand, thereby building area, while also establishing a to the recovery of the By that I mean a territory that isn’t new kind of image. that instead has both aesthetic and wasted, a territory a place where there are different productive value, and where people might want to kinds of values of life, to “Terraferma”, another raise children. In addition worked on is something that started project that I have to Via Piave in the center of just a year ago, close is a building complex, indeed a Mestre, where there it’s known as whole block that’s completely empty, It was slowly “Crocevia Piave”, close to the church. bourgeois image abandoned, but it used to have a very it used to at the beginning of the twentieth century, families lived in house some very elegant shops, and for the these large apartments above, built specifically and that kind middle class. This class no longer exists, place has been of trade no longer exists, and so this and the will abandoned, despite the will of the owners, to reappropriate of the people who came to live there in this and reactivate the space. We found ourselves stopped in its situation where the whole project had will and the tracks. But there was nonetheless the I realized that strength to reopen these spaces, and took care of in a very short time, with the people who to become a these spaces, this place had the ability a few actions central location once again. It only took starting to gain to make it a central location that is now cultural matrix. A a new image, representing more of a third project that I followed is a part of the institution I work for. The great strength that institutions have in carrying out these projects can be an important factor, which in this case is the opening of a social garden, even if the term is perhaps illustrative of a wider issue, in the sense that the garden has become a meeting place for the elderly. OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 10 63 . A warm farewell Spotify or iTunes. A warm farewell Thank you, now it’s time to say goodbye to Laura to Laura EB: Thank you, now it’s time to say goodbye thanks to all Mascino, thank you for joining us, and like to thank of you who have been listening. We’d our Enrico Coniglio, who is the musician behind to during the theme song. The music that you listened emerges episode on the other hand, which as usual only to fade from time to time in a rather ethereal way taken from away once again, was by Giulio Aldinucci, So thanks “Autofocus”, whom we’d also like to thank. — Academy again to all of you for listening to TBA21 for the tenth episode Radio from Ocean Space, Venice, of “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century”, a podcast edited by Enrico Bettinello and Alice Ongaro Sartori, in collaboration with Graziano Meneghin for post-production. You can listen to all episodes of Nowtilus on ocean-archive.org, or follow us on Soundcloud, Musical interlude - Enrico Coniglio, “Saltland” (2020) Thank you for painting us this picture, it us this picture, it EB: Thank you for painting and it would be has been really stimulating, some aspects even further, interesting to explore time’s running out and we’re but unfortunately of this episode. But we can’t approaching the end you the question we always leave without asking is closest to place in Venice ask our guests: which Mascino. your heart, Laura to my LM: There are many places that are close hard to choose heart, this is a city in which it’s really now, maybe one particular favorite place. But right a place the place closest to my heart is Cannaregio, feel good. that I go to frequently and where I always one Perhaps because it has these long canalsides, along. after another, which are perfect for walking to all of you from me, Enrico Bettinello. certain values, or who have certain personal projects, projects, personal certain or who have values, certain Not in those places. and live to go be attracted might of take care but to places, live in those to go and only too Venice So through these experiments, them too. who made up of citizens a citizenship needs to create who their own projects, here, who have want to live this just tourists in here, who aren’t actually reside in this city. want to invest city, and who NOWTILUS EPISODE 11 64

iTunes and Google Podcasts.

Spotify, SoundCloud,

COLLECTION TOSO FEI’S TOSO FEI’S Available from December 17th 2020, 4pm TBA21-Academy Radio on Ocean Archive, FROM ALBERTO FROM ALBERTO

AND CURIOSITIES AND CURIOSITIES

COMICS, GAMES COMICS, GAMES

POSTCARDS, POSTCARDS,

IN THE WORLD. WORLD. IN THE ALL THE VENICES ALL THE Episode 11 OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 11 65 and sometimes even objects tell stories, they can can stories, they tell even objects and sometimes way or in some affect you that can meanings carry I liked, things collecting I started Initially another. it became unsustainable, spoke to me, then things that and I “limited” myself and materially, both objectively if I Wherever I go, alone. relating to Venice to things shop dealer, any small a second-hand come across old stuff, I always or just selling pseudo-antiques of the city, and I ask, “What go in and say the name of?”. And they bring out what does this remind you search shelves, take down they have, open drawers, and sometimes you find some books and objects, We’re talking about all sorts of really lovely things. and most immediate, such objects, from the simplest or vouchers. I really have as postcards, matchboxes, which are not traditional postage everything, erinnofili, stamps that were used to seal stamps, but instead that used to be found in boxes envelopes, the stickers were intended of chocolates, or any other objects that however, offers an image of itself for children. Venice, young age. that enters the imagination from a very when EB: So, I ask you as a historian of Venice, of the exactly did this image, this sort of promotion come about? How did it develop? It image of Venice if images must have been pretty remarkable marketing have ended up all over the world? of Venice the dawn It began long, long ago, since at least ATF: was of course once a of the printing press. Venice kinds of books, world center for the publication of all its own myth. so the city didn’t hesitate in promoting books that Already by the 1500s there were wonderful written not only by Venetians, give accounts of Venice, there were but also outsiders. And by the 1600s were writing many travelers of other nationalities who and this added fuel to the myth, books about Venice, a myth that was born ever further away. I’ve noted that even if you travel to the peaks of Tibet, or among the mangroves of Brazil, if someone comes across a coat of arms with the Winged Lion, they don’t say, “Ah, Saint Mark the Evangelist” - to whom this symbol !” really belongs - but they say instead, “Ah, Venice example of represents the first extraordinary Venice stealing a logo design, not only taking possession of the body of the saint (if indeed there even is one, but that’s another story), but also taking possession of his symbol, embodying it, and making it their own. Venice understood that the image and the positioning of oneself are perhaps more powerful than any reality. hasn’t been limited to our EB: Even the name “Venice” urban lagoon, and has actually traveled all over the the world, are there around world. How many Venices as far as you’re aware? It’s very difficult to say, there are at least twenty ATF: of them in the United States alone, and at least twenty-three elsewhere, we are talking about “recently colonized” places, at least compared to the history of Western colonization, in Central and South America. and above and above I don’t really know if there was a first object, I I don’t really know if there was a first object, I ATF: have always loved going to flea markets, I have an unstable and uncontrolled compulsiveness for things that speak to me in some way. I am a story hunter, As we said in the introduction, you’re a writer EB: As we said in the introduction, you’re a writer known and appreciated for your many stories, but not everyone knows that you are a compulsive collector of objects and various memorabilia relating to Venice. How did your passion for these objects come about? in love and very much Obviously you are Venetian, with your city, so we might make an educated guess, but tell us about how this started, and what was the first object that started your collection? Thanks Enrico, and hello to Thanks Enrico, and hello to Alberto Toso Fei (ATF): everyone listening. all, a narrator of a multi-faceted Venice that can be that can be Venice all, a narrator of a multi-faceted different perspectives, something observed from many perspective that we really like here at Nowtilus. The the lens of an we have chosen today passes through relate to Venice incredible collection of objects that all people might in some way. This is something that many fellow Nowtilus not be familiar with, but something my both aware of, producer Alice Ongaro Sartori and I are things back and it seemed perfect to somehow bring have covered in around to some of the reflections we now has been our podcast, which for several months In the of Venice. focussed on the contemporary image you, not only many months that we have spent with which we on the podcast but also at Nowtilus Live! San Lorenzo held at Ocean Space in the Church of thread emerged, back in October, a thin but very clear all our guests, which ties together all the stories and their time with who we continue to thank for sharing between the us. This thread is the interesting dynamic between its identities, whether narratives of Venice, in which perceived, narrated, or real, a dynamic perspectives often exchange roles, and bring about new ways of rethinking the relationship between communities and what we have defined as the “urban lagoon”. Today we continue this reflection in a lighthearted yet hopefully coherent way together with Alberto Toso Fei. Welcome, Alberto Toso Fei. You are listening to Nowtilus. to Nowtilus. are listening (EB): You Bettinello Enrico in the 21st century, an urban lagoon Stories from This is Enrico Venice. by Ocean Space, a podcast you aboard “Nowtilus”, here to welcome Bettinello, the issues concerning notes, and stories, thoughts, the eleventh and final today. In of Venice rethinking be talking about the image of episode of 2020, we’ll through the lens of objects, around the world Venice and we’ll be doing this in postcards, toponyms, Toso Fei, someone who the company of Alberto introduction. An expert in Venice’s certainly needs no and mysteries, both familiar and history, it’s stories and essayist whose works have unfamiliar. A writer several languages, ​​ been translated into TBA21—Academy Radio TBA21—Academy OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 11 66 Venice, because it’s enough because it’s enough Venice, Venice is evocative though, isn’t it? Earlier I I it? Earlier isn’t though, is evocative Venice ATF: this with pictures, adorned matchboxes mentioned off is a Japanese to show give you that I’ll one here in the middle of the with this gondola matchbox to thing. And similar it’s a wonderful skyscrapers, postcards show places, evocation, these this kind of this case a gondola, or objects, in circumstances in very disparate that has been reproduced something world several real gondolas can be forms. Around the been bought, imported, and made found, which have it’s possible to find gondolas use of. In many places people who have learned to with pseudo-gondoliers, name which is a Venetian use a gondola, “gondola” the world. All a boat needs, I is now found all over shape at the bow, and that it’s don’t know, is a certain people around for leisure, and generally used to take called a gondola. There’s a that boat ends up being Wales, there are - well, at least kind of steamboat in in very old there used to be, because they feature they still actually postcards, and we need to find out if in Mallorca, exist - but there are some inside a cave the cave of the which are known as “las gondolas” of which they “Drach”, and there were fakes of these, Even in Star used to make postcards in Manchester... also makes Wars, with all of it’s many references, ultramodern use of a gondola, which is obviously an we are talking interpretation of the gondola because called about a dystopian future, but it is nonetheless one. In a gondola, and unequivocally resembles you will this case too, if you just search the internet immediately find “The Star Wars Gondola”. Access” (2009). Musical interlude - Molven, “Random EB: So, we often imagine postcards as illustrations there that are just like photographs, but obviously and are also many postcards that are designed A realistic emerges? manipulated. What kind of Venice other elements Or is it one that overlaps with Venice? of the imagination? Generally speaking, people who seek to ATF: tend to through their creativity represent Venice include everything they would like to see. This will become relevant to the comics we talk about in a moment, in the sense that it’s not even necessary to copy a real image, a photo, a postcard, you don’t need to reproduce it faithfully in a drawing in order to convey the idea of ​​ to include some houses on the water or whatever, something that you remember, something that floats, some sort of dome. I have sheet music in which Venice appears very similar to Constantinople, Istanbul, there are more minarets and domes than churches and After all, this is so many things”. palaces, but “Venice really is the case, in some ways... In the sense that these references to the East are unequivocal. We who live here can perceive it, and the people who have never been here may feel this influence even stronger, which is more a feeling than something you can fully appreciate visually. In short, this really is a recurring image, as EB: In short, this really is a recurring image, as we have often pointed out in previous episodes of Nowtilus, an image that bounces around in a truly uncontrolled way, meaning that the image and identity of this city are constantly confused in something like an endless hall of mirrors. You mentioned the postcards from your collection, can you tell us about some gems from your collection? Just to say for those who are listening, who might now be worried because they won’t be able to see the objects we’ll be talking about, but don’t worry, all the objects are going to be viewable on our social channels, both on Facebook and on Instagram. We’ll be promptly putting up images of Alberto Toso Fei’s curiosities, who we thank very much for helping us with this. So, these postcards then… They’d like to think they resemble it... It’s It’s They’d like to think they resemble it... ATF: in, for fun to do a search on the internet by typing languages” and example, “Bridge of Sighs in different There’s all sorts of things crop up, it’s wonderful. has one in Cambridge, and obviously if Cambridge are some one, Oxford has to have one too. There a pedestrian in Germany, there’s one in Lima, Peru, they say bridge that passes over a freeway which de los is so romantic that it’s called “El Puento are inspired Sospiros”, naturally. Almost all of them one. As always, the Americans are by the Venetian one, which no the most philological, there used to be postcards of longer exists but can still be seen in old from court to New York, which transferred prisoners and this the prisons, which were called “The Tombs”, That was very was also called “The Bridge of Sighs”. historically accurate. There’s another one today, a modern bridge, which spans two parts of a skyscraper which was built after 1902, based on the bell tower of San Marco. It belongs to the “Life Insurance” company, and it’s a skyscraper that really does resemble the bell tower of San Marco, and it’s connected to another building by this “Bridge of Sighs”. Are they simply named after the Bridge of Sighs, or of Sighs, or EB: Are they simply named after the Bridge perspective? do they also resemble it from a structural They are either names like “Venezia” or “Venetia”. or “Venetia”. “Venezia” names like are either They Amerigo explorer the name because got its Venezuela lived in inhabitants the territory’s saw that Vespucci him of little Venices. stilts that reminded houses on or “Veneziola” was of Venezuela The first name an entire country that So there’s even “Venezuola”. are places called There from Venice. takes its name have factoring in places and this is only “Rialto” too, We can also add to this list been named after Venice. of the nickname “The Venice cities that have earned to Bamberg, Stockholm, the North”, from Amsterdam and there are also cities Bruges, and St. Petersburg, of …” in this case, “The Venice in China that are called there are cities that “of the Far East”. Furthermore, such as Palato, called “Venezia”, have neighborhoods and Livorno. There are also a Spalato, Bamberga, around the world. dozen “Bridges of Sighs” OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 11 67 give you an image of this to share with your listeners listeners with your to share of this you an image give really which de Venise”, “La Colombe this is too. So name than the other do with Venice, to has nothing your sticks in the box. But it nonetheless printed on of children who I imagine generations imagination, this ruined by playing perception of Venice had their the most strikingly I must say is perhaps game, which in recent years. thing I have found dystopian Molven, “Random Access” (2009). Musical interlude - you mentioned that EB: Alberto Toso Fei, earlier in comics, so let’s now dive into has featured Venice culture, a medium that’s found the heart of popular images leave an impression on far and wide, whose almost subliminally. How many readers of all ages, appear in? And in which comics? comics does Venice comics that aren’t specifically By that I mean the dedicated to Venice... if we I would say all of them! In the sense that, ATF: from think of any so-called “VIP” or any character how history, even from recent history, no matter sooner or famous they are, they all come to Venice San Marco with later, they take their photos in Piazza and so on… pigeons in their hands, or in a gondola, come to And just as flesh and blood personalities ever since comics have existed, so do comic Venice, city can easily book characters. Such an imaginative The only host any character that comes to mind. but it Venice, one I still have been unable to find in lost hope... is only a matter of time, is Tex. I haven’t see why Besides, Buffalo Bill came here, so I don’t Hound, Tex couldn’t. From Topo Gigio to Huckleberry age) to the from Tiramolla (for the listeners of a certain and go, and Disney mice and ducks that often come at because it’s who we should definitely take a look to all very funny to see what they get up to in Venice, the superheroes: from Wonderwoman to Batman, who that looks a also recently visited a version of Venice lot like Florence: he supposedly goes to Rialto but it Stuff that honestly looks more like the Ponte Vecchio. was drawn just a few years ago, very Gotham City-like itself to But then again this city really lends Venice. any type of sublimation and transformation. Spider- Man couldn’t miss out either... EB: He was recently in a film shot here in Venice... Then there’s Phantom, or “the Masked Man”, so ATF: we’re talking about the olden days too. So they’ve live here and sometimes they all been to Venice, too... even Yogi Bear! They work as gondoliers, or sometimes they just go on their gondola ride... Dylan Dog, Martin Mystère, just to give another couple of Italian examples. Sometimes they come to a Venice that seems to really exist, in the sense that we can get our bearings as we read, sometimes in the most well- known locations: from San Marco to Rialto. There’s Japanese manga too... I’m going through it mentally... On the other hand, sometimes the city takes the form Well, I have more reproductions of gondolas, Well, I have more reproductions of gondolas, ATF: from the Rialto bridge, which can be quite faithful as far as souvenirs go, for example. Among the old souvenirs that I collect, especially from the United States, there are many letter openers, envelope openers with a blade, and the handles feature the “ferro” of the gondola, the metal decoration at the bow, or even a whole gondola with a gondolier on it, very comfortable to hold as you can probably imagine... They are rather charming and decorative, and this is something that is also reflected in the everyday object. Some of the most peculiar things are games. One of the most curious that I’ve found is a French game, quite old - I think it’s from between World War One and World War Two - which is called in Venice” or “the dove of “La Colombe di Venise”, English. This is a closed box with a glass window, a girl and the lid features a city that isn’t Venice, surrounded by these doves and wearing a costume, which in my opinion is more typical of Matera. The aim of the game, enclosed by this glass, is to make this metal bird go up a small glass ramp, making it jump until it reaches the top, which is a kind of cylinder. I’ll On the other hand, before the internet or or EB: On the other hand, before the internet check or verify television there wasn’t really a way to run wild. truthfulness, and so the imagination could and continue Let’s leave the postcards for a moment, move on to rummage through your collection. Let’s you think are of to three dimensions, the objects that this continuous particular interest and that represent you tell us exchange of the imagination, what can about? The farthest traces almost always come from the almost always come from the The farthest traces ATF: there’s a great creative freedom. United States, where in most cases These are pre-internet postcards, and way to imprint pre-television too, when there was no so someone such a faithful image on the retina. And There’s this French postcard could just recall Venice... it reads that’s fairly accurate in its wording, because This gondola “a gondola in Italy”, not even in Venice... I have no could be on Lake Maggiore or Lake Como, [in Venetian] idea... Maybe even on Lake Bolsena but [laughs]. it’s definitely not in Venice! Well, this really is interesting because they are are they because is interesting this really EB: Well, of projections are the they Venice, of projections that we something this is and people imagine, what these episodes to understand throughout have come of like in what is kind because we live of “Nowtilus”, is asked “what city, in which everyone a Rorschach are some who see inside?” And there do you see potential. Others instead or some who see nostalgia, that aren’t real, and vice versa. recognize real aspects imaginary elements, whose roles Perhaps within these with reality, we might also find are interchangeable our city. These postcards come the key to rethinking so how far afield have you from all over the world, imagery and symbols on a found traces of Venetian postcard? OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 11 6868 Venice emerges, or which Venices emerge? emerge? emerges, or which Venices Venice How do these different Venices recur, and how are recur, and how are How do these different Venices themselves represented? Can you give us Venetians too serious, just an impression, I don’t want to get light and funny, because your stories have been very in terms of but also extremely useful in my opinion, understanding this exchange of imagination. have in some way Historically, we Venetians ATF: of the city. always created and nourished the myth become the But then on the other hand, we have also have become victims of it, so even very recently, we sort of like a postcard version of ourselves, by that I mean we try to offer up this ideal image of the city to the people who come to visit us, or to those who flatter us, to keep them happy somehow. This is a beautiful and noble thing, of feeding people what they want to eat, putting them to sleep where they want to sleep, however, we haven’t taught them what we really are, or what good local food to eat, or that they shouldn’t always go to fast food restaurants (not that I have anything against fast-food). I say this because when you go to a new or different place, it’s nice to experience many aspects of the place, such as its culinary traditions for example, and so it’s always something of a double-edged sword. We love inventing sometimes to nurture the myth of Venice, things ourselves too... I deal with history a lot, with legends, even legends that have been created in very modern times. Staying with the theme of the gondola, the “ferro” at the bow of the gondola has six “teeth”, which supposedly represent the six sestieri, the city districts, but they probably only date from the ‘40s or ‘50s. This makes the legend no less true, however. I don’t know how to explain. It’s a recent invention, it’s a little, modern legend that should be taken for what it There’s another good comic that deals instead deals instead that good comic another There’s ATF: of overpopulation the consequently tourism, and with out, but it came what year remember I don’t tourists. and this speaks volumes few decades ago, it’s from a local compared to the foresight when about Mickey’s few decades. So what over the last administrations tourists visit the city They made the did they do? in an useful today, would be particularly virtually. This and restricted movement. age defined by coronavirus on caterpillar tracks that moved There were robots offering physical guided tours, with around the city and robots allowed people with VR this technology these the city in real-time, wherever headsets to experience realise that then the Venetians the robot went. But that they don’t make any money this technology means go to restaurants, they don’t buy - the tourists don’t consume anything - and so the souvenirs, they don’t experiment fails miserably. and EB: As a vision, that seems both very prophetic the end of very interesting. So, we are coming to with you for our chat, I’d happily stay here talking are just hours and hours, because I imagine these from your a few examples that we could pluck out kind of beautiful collection. In your opinion, what idea of ​​ EB: Well, it’s a nice suggestion. They tow it away, but in order to do so, they They tow it away, but in order to do so, they ATF: release all the other monuments, and they end up all around the lagoon, so we had to give up on the idea of saving monuments using this method... EB: No! Yes, more than one! There is Cavazzano, the the Yes, more than one! There is Cavazzano, ATF: Gatto, there master of masters, but there was also right were others whose names I can’t remember who worked now. There are at least four Venetians their as artists for Disney; this certainly influences as you can work, and theirs is a recognizable Venice, often real probably imagine. The funny thing is that Disney comics, historical things have been included in antiquity, the such as “Theriaca”, a miracle drug of Doge’s ring, and consequently the Marriage of the Sea ceremony, these recurring elements that are entirely factual, they are part of the city’s history. Or the problems the city has struggled with too, like the Acqua Alta in the ‘70s, which has always been a serious problem, and which was addressed by placing large inflatable mattresses beneath the monuments of the city. When the waters rose, something which comes in waves - when I was a child I was really struck by this mini “tsunami“ that came and then went with the Acqua Alta - Scrooge McDuck was there to invent a system to lift the monuments up, and keep them dry. Naturally, Scrooge McDuck runs into some trouble with the Beagle Boys, who at a one point steal the Basilica of San Marco. So, earlier you were talking about Disney EB: So, earlier you were talking about Disney Could the characters, in both duck and mouse forms. is present in so many Disney stories fact that Venice of the great also be influenced by the fact that one Italian Disney artists was Venetian? Yes, yes, like at Piazzale Roma, repeating what Roma, repeating what Yes, yes, like at Piazzale ATF: there [laughter]… What a happened on the bridge situation. [Reference to a news hilarious and ridiculous 2011, when a group of young story from February Calatrava people illegally drove a car across the Roma with pedestrian bridge, connecting Piazzale Santa Lucia railway station.] EB: In Venice! of recognizable but somewhat hidden glimpses that that glimpses hidden but somewhat of recognizable in other And photographs. from copied are evidently that a Venice not, it’s often than more instances, specific exists only in that exist, one that doesn’t really from the ‘60s called There is a comic comic book. - the in Venice) (Espionage a Venezia” “Spionaggio - di Spie” (Spy War) series is “Guerra name of the a character arrives in which part in Venice there is a gets into a car and says the train station, at Venice that car!” which belongs to the classic phrase: “Follow who is heading to a hotel. person being followed, OCEAN SPACE NOWTILUS EPISODE 11 69 . Today, more so so more . Today, or iTunes Spotify , Soundcloud us on both networks, our social a look at ever, have than of the objects images , to see Facebook and Instagram about. A warm farewell Fei talked to us Alberto Toso Bettinello. from me, Enrico to all of you (2020) “Saltland“ - Enrico Coniglio, Musical interlude You told me not to ask you why, and so we’ll leave EB: You told me not to ask you why, and so we’ll leave our listeners guessing about these places. Thanks very much to Alberto Toso Fei, thanks for joining us, and thanks to all of you for listening to us. We’d also like to thank Enrico Coniglio who is the musician behind our theme song, while the music you listened to throughout the episode is by Molven, and was taken from the “Random Access”. Thank you for listening to for TBA21-Academy Radio from Ocean Space, Venice, what was the eleventh and last episode of “Nowtilus. Stories from an urban lagoon in the 21st century” in 2020, a podcast edited by Enrico Bettinello and Alice Ongaro Sartori, in collaboration with Graziano Meneghin for post-production. You can listen to all episodes of Nowtilus on ocean-archive.org, or follow For me, a Venetian setting that I hold very close setting that I hold very close For me, a Venetian ATF: beauty and to heart because of both its extraordinary exactly a central its “banality”, in the sense that it’s not It’s one of place, is Campo San Giovanni e Paolo. where my eyes those places where I always feel good, a lot of history are engaged as much as my spirit, it has coffee, which and stories, you can sit and have a good playing never hurts, and it’s always full of children as goalposts. soccer, using the tombs of the Doges blasphemous, Something that could be seen as a bit between the but I’m sure that the Tiepolos (the Doges 13th and 14th centuries), a father and son, are very happy with this. The children have taken possession of these stones in a healthy way, and it’s a place that I really like. I’ll add another one. I’m from Murano, and as a boy we used to go to the Lazzareto Nuovo, Sant’Erasmo. A place that really connects with me, don’t ask me why, is the abandoned island of San Giacomo in Paludo. Don’t think you’re the first to mislead our listeners our listeners EB: Don’t think you’re the first to mislead like that! Now I’ll tell a lie, so everyone goes elsewhere... ATF: Well, thank you so much for all these suggestions, much for all these suggestions, EB: Well, thank you so not only a way to have some fun, which I think offer us reflect and look at the city from lots but also help us to we are moving towards the end of of new angles. As help but ask you, as a Venetian this episode, we can’t what is the who happens to be known by Venice, in Venice? place that’s closest to your heart here is, but it’s also a sign of how this city is in continuous continuous city is in how this a sign of it’s also is, but and era, the contemporary even in transformation, to searching continuously how it’s other hand on the give you one last example, its own myth. I’ll perpetuate in Fiera” (the Merchant game “Mercante if I may: the cards that feature which involves playing at the Fair) which and a single city, places, animals, characters, this Mercante in Fiera, all the cards of Of is Venice. be played at Christmas a long time game that used to representation of a city that is the only ago, Venice that contains dozens and dozens of exists in this deck images. OCEAN SPACE 70 ocean-space.org [email protected] Facebook OceanSpaceOrg Instagram oceanspaceorg CONTACT