The Young People of Scotland Decide

Darwin: The Great Debate

A Discussion Forum for S5 and S6 Students

Tuesday 22 September 2009 at the Royal Society of Edinburgh and Wednesday 23 September 2009 at the National Museum of Rural Life, East Kilbride Contents

Introduction 3

Facts and Issues 4

Feedback 11

Students’ Religious Attitudes 15

Chairs and Speakers 17

Participants 19 Darwin: The Great Debate The Young People of Scotland Decide

Introduction By Professor Mary Bownes

Evolution is one of the few processes described by Our second speaker was Steve Jones a professor scientists which is challenged not just on the details of genetics, author and broadcaster, who is an and accuracy of the theory using experiments and outstanding researcher in evolutionary biology and observation, but also on the basis of religious views. ecological genetics and who understands the When Darwin eventually worked out his theory of scientific process of using experiments and collecting evolution through natural selection, his concern for evidence to test theories. Steve is also an excellent the views of the church seriously influenced how long communicator, taking his ideas and views to more it took him to discuss his big ideas in public. general audiences through writing, radio and TV.

The Royal Society of Edinburgh’s Young People’s The lectures were excellent, stimulating and provided Committee encourages debate on a variety of issues a basis for the students to develop a deeper that affect Society, offering opportunities for young understanding of the issues. Following the talks, the people to engage in debate and allowing them to draw Royal Museum of Scotland staff were on hand to show their own conclusions. Young people’s views are the students fossil evidence of evolution, and small crucial, as they are the next generation of leaders group work that was focused on directed questions and thinkers in many spheres of life. relating to the debate was then carried out. This led to animated discussion and lots of good ideas. Religion in its many forms is just as crucial to some people now as it was in Darwin’s time. This debate and All the young people attending proactively participated workshop aimed to separate out scientific evidence with serious questions that challenged our speakers, from religious beliefs, enabling students to openly leading to an excellent day for everyone and hopefully discuss the issues and make up their own minds everyone took away new ways of thinking about the about where they fit in the spectrum of views on world we live in. how evolution and religion can co-exist.

One of our speakers, Richard Holloway, brought his religious perspective to the debate, having devoted much of his life to date on religious thinking and having been the Bishop of Edinburgh. He is also someone who takes seriously the ethical issues faced by everyone with the big advances in technology, genetics and medicine. He has written numerous books and been involved in radio and TV.

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Facts and Issues Report by Matthew Shelley

Two centuries after the birth of Charles Darwin, The day had four key aims which were for the and 150 years after the publication of his book students to: On the Origin of Species , there is still debate about his theory of evolution. The Royal Society of Edinburgh > Understand the importance of Darwin’s theory and National Museums Scotland brought together and the controversy this caused at the time; two renowned speakers with young people from > Understand the basics of the scientific theory seven schools to debate the evidence and decide of evolution through natural selection; whether they were convinced. > Be able to recognise evidence of natural The morning session at each forum involved selection through museum collections and presentations by Professor Steve Jones and Bishop the world around us; and Richard Holloway, followed by question and answer sessions with the students. > Express an opinion regarding how science and religious theories can conflict or co-exist. After lunch the pupils split into groups to consider key questions about Darwinism and This report includes an overview of the speakers’ religious faith. presentations and a summary of the students’ questions and feedback. The groups then presented their findings at a feedback session, after which the two speakers discussed their conclusions from the day and took further questions from the pupils.

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Steve Jones , Professor of Genetics at UCL, author and broadcaster

The origins of evolution One earlier scientific use of an evolutionary concept The Biblical tale of Adam and Eve is just one of a was in the work on linguistics by Sir William Jones in variety of creation myths from around the world that the mid-18th Century. He challenged the Biblical story helped provide different cultures with explanations for of the Tower of Babel in which all languages were big questions about the origins of the world, life and created by God in one instant to stop humans the human species. They cannot all be true, but there quarrelling. Jones identified that many languages in is no way of differentiating between them. The scientific Europe and India have similar elements and have story, which explains evolution as a process of natural evolved from a single tongue. The speakers of the selection, is different because it can be tested. A large ancestral language, possibly from the Crimea, had body of evidence supports the theory of evolution and moved around, and over the millennia the original it is almost universally accepted amongst scientists, language has changed. Some changes can take place but not necessarily the general public. very quickly, for example the clipped-sounding ‘Received Pronunciation’ which was common Darwin’s theory worried many in Victorian society amongst university students in London in the 1950s because they felt it robbed humanity of a special has been displaced by regional accents. status, distinct from the rest of creation, and made man just another animal. This in turn was taken as Darwin saw that evolution was at work in biology undermining Society’s moral fabric – if we are just and defined the process as one in which inherited shaved monkeys, why should we not behave in a differences affected a creature’s chances of bestial fashion? These concerns and belief in the reproduction. Some creatures would have mutations literal account of the creation story from Genesis 1–3 that gave them advantages, allowing them to live dwindled, but have since re-emerged either openly or longer, breed more often or be more attractive to in the form of ‘Intelligent Design’. At the same time, mates. The result would be that they would be more scientists such as Jane Goodall, who is celebrated for successful at reproducing and would spread. In time, her work in understanding chimpanzees, have helped new species would emerge as life adapted to the blur distinctions between humans and apes. She challenges of different environments and circumstances. argues that as chimps have 98% of DNA in common with people, they should share most human rights. A factory for making impossible things Professor Jones rejected this concept, saying that Followers of ‘Intelligent Design’ claim that life-forms there are profound differences between the species. such as humans are so complex and unusual that they must represent the work of a Creator. This Darwin’s ideas misunderstands the way nature, and even industry, The concept of evolution predated Darwin. What he works. Professor Jones gave the example of a soap did was provide a coherent theory and a framework powder manufacturing plant where nozzles that were for the whole science of biology. His core idea can a vital part of the process were inefficient. Designers be summed up as “descent with modifications”. were called in but failed to make real improvements. Information is passed down through the generations, Another approach was taken in which small random but mistakes are made, so differences emerge. changes were made. The best were kept, the rest In today’s language, the idea can be expressed as abandoned, and further random changes were “genetics plus time”. And there has been plenty of introduced to each new generation. After 45 time for mutations to take place in the 3.5 thousand generations the efficiency had improved 100 times million years since life emerged. and the new nozzle was astonishingly complex.

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Evolution accounts not just for the emergence of genes that have decayed in people. One example is different species, but for distinctions within them. that humans lack the muscle proteins that make Human skin colour makes Africans and Europeans chimps so much physically stronger. Nonetheless, look different. This is a result of the melanin pigment, the species are extraordinarily similar. The main which is more present in dark skin than in light. This exception is that the human brain is five times larger is an advantage in some climates as it protects and has many more internal connections. against the Sun’s rays. However, it also inhibits the Brain composition and size is the essence of the body’s ability to manufacture Vitamin D which provides essential protection against diseases like rickets. difference between humans and other apes. Whilst As ancient humans moved to less sunny parts of the other creatures have tended to evolve physically, world, those with paler skin were better equipped to humans did so mentally. Early humans of 100,000 survive and reproduce, because higher Vitamin D years ago looked very similar to those of the 21st levels meant they were healthier. Small, but different, Century, but are actually socially, culturally and mutations reduced melanin production in the groups mentally a long way apart. It is this capacity for mental which populated China and Japan. This shows how change that marks humans out as unique. Professor evolution makes use of any random change that offers Jones identified language as the vital mechanism that an advantage, rather than working to a pattern or design. allowed humans to advance in this way. Whilst we do not know why we have language (it may be linked to Evolution also works in conjunction with other forces, the FoxP2 gene), we can see that it allows ideas and as is shown by the emergence of blond people. Early information to be passed through populations and farmers were unable to grow their cereals in much of between generations. This enables us to change northern Europe because the conditions were too our behaviour and means that each individual does hostile. These problems were overcome and farmers began to colonise areas like Scotland and Scandinavia not have to discover everything from scratch. 5,000 to 7,000 years ago. The climatic conditions were And whilst other species do exhibit forms of such that those with the palest hair and skin had an communication, none appears to have language in evolutionary advantage, meaning that blonds began to the same way as humans. appear in this specific geographical area. Language gives us the power to shape our world. What makes humans different? In Shakespeare’s time, one in three UK infants lived to DNA research shows that there are far greater the age of 21 and now it is 99%. Language gave us the differences between populations of chimps living 100 capacity to learn and change – developing good miles apart in Africa than across the whole human sanitation, vaccines and other means to protect race. It also shows that chimps have many working ourselves and improve our chances of survival.

Questions to Steve Jones Summary > On the origin of language, he said there are various theories, The theory of evolution is very but none of them work terribly well. One, however, suggests good at telling us where we come that communication allows animals to live in groups. from and showing how change takes place, and it points to the > Questioned on whether Darwin was religious, the Professor fact that humans are very special. said that Darwin lost his faith by his late 40s. This may have According to Professor Jones, been linked to the death of his young daughter, Annie. It may that is its strength and its limiting also have been due to the difficulty he had in reconciling the factor. Evolutionary biology is a idea of a benevolent Creator with some of the gruesome comparative science, so it can aspects of the natural world. point to the fact that humans are > Asked why there are distinct species rather than just unlike anything else, other disci - graduations, he said that evolution is a process that breaks up plines are needed to understand groups. Physical barriers, such as mountain ranges, can its uniqueness. prevent interaction between groups, so they follow their own distinct paths. page 6 Darwin: The Great Debate The Young People of Scotland Decide

Dr Richard Holloway, former Bishop of Edinburgh, and author

On hearing of the death of his daughter, the artist Paul One example was the conflict that occurred in the late Gauguin painted a canvas which was a cry of anguish Middle Ages, when astronomers discovered that the at the riddle of existence. On it he wrote three questions: Sun rather than the Earth was at the centre of the Where do we come from? solar system – an assertion regarded as blasphemy. Such fundamentalism can be an aggressive and What are we? sometimes violent ingredient in the debate over how Where are we going? to live and understand our universe. Strong religion is Such questions reflect humanity’s nature as a thinking also at odds with our nature as restless, changeful creature interested in its own identity. We know we are and questioning creatures. going to die, we are puzzled by why there is something rather than nothing and we seek for meaning. Weak religion These qualities are the engine of three great human Weak religion (critical realism) believes in a real God enterprises – religion, philosophy and science – each of and revelation, but recognises human imperfection. which attempts to provide answers to the big questions. This allows for the perfection of revelation, but the fal - libility of scripture as it was written by flawed humans. One approach to answering the big questions is by The weak religious position demands modesty and an gathering and analysing information with our brains. acceptance that humans only perceive God imper - Religious traditions tend to argue that there is another fectly and their own prejudices or wishful thinking can source of data, from divine revelation. This suggests obscure their understanding. This allows for ideas to that at certain points (in some cases 3,000 to 4,000 adapt to new scientific knowledge and social wisdom. years ago) messages were sent to humanity, perhaps from the source of all things. These were recorded as There are major challenges for the weak religious scripture, and point to the meaning of things and offer outlook, as it demands constant effort to reconcile the guidance on how to live. traditions of a faith with the best of the contemporary world. This can lead to accusations from the strongly Strong religion religious that fundamental truths are betrayed. Most Bishop Holloway argued that attitudes to religion people with a weakly religious perspective were able can be represented by four points along a continuum. to adapt to and accept Darwin’s ideas, though it often These start with the strong religion (divine realism) took some time as they sought to reconcile them with and the claim that there is a real God, and a revelation their faith. Its strength is the recognition that for a that was recorded accurately and is infallible. religion to be valid for all time it must adapt. This provides a package of unchanging answers to everything. Its advantage is strength and certainty, After religion but the believer is locked into a world view from This viewpoint (non realism) regards faith as a human thousands of years in the past. New knowledge is construct, a record of humanity’s attempt to wrestle often rejected and there are frequently ideas that with the big questions. It sees religion as a force that women are inferior and that alternative sexualities has generated wisdom and beauty and that should be are not to be tolerated. This results in a collision with cherished. It sees religion as doing something that some of the best social reforms of our time and an science often can’t in informing us about what it is to absolute clash with much scientific knowledge. be human.

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As something made by us, like great novels, operas Amongst the most eloquent followers of the strong or symphonies, religion must contain knowledge version is Richard Dawkins, who expresses moral that is of use. The great texts combine beauty and outrage about religion, regarding it as the root of all horror – talking about evil, hell and sin. The evil. This, argued Bishop Holloway, is untrue, as evil non-realist position can see religious writings as can attach itself to any human enterprise, including a reflection of our conflicted nature, an upsurging of the sophisticated science that resulted in the bombs the unconscious, where there is darkness as well as dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The root of all light. Despite our intelligence and ability to evolve and evil is the human being – a creature able to turn any advance, the purges, wars and genocides of the 20th good to evil. Yet it is true that religion has often been century show our immense capacity for cruelty. The turned to evil purposes, from the burning of witches to after-religionist can look at religious works and see the persuasion of naïve young men to fly planes into the characteristics of our species laid out – wonderful high buildings killing thousands. Religion, and politics, animals who write love poems and lyrical essays can turn people into implacable monsters. whilst at the same time construct ideologies that damn and demean fellow humans. Scripture expresses Many evangelical atheists are passionate followers the great dark under-continent of the human spirit of Darwin. This is despite his advice that direct and the brightness of its potentiality in a way that arguments against Christianity have little effect on little else can. public opinion. He felt that illumination was gradual The after-religious perspective is humanistic and and came through education, and so he confined looks to scripture for truths beyond the literal and the himself to writing about science. Atheistic attacks on factual, in the same way that the reader of a poem or religion, however, can be very beneficial as they force a novel does. As such, the tale of Adam and Eve is a believers to think and adapt and evolve – purging myth. Rather than being an account of an aboriginal themselves of superstition and false thinking. couple in Mesopotamia, its ideas about the serpent and the eating of the apple from the Tree of Life is Where do we stand? about the essential restless discontentedness of Our position on the spectrum from the strongly mankind. It is a myth with enduring meaning, rather religious to the anti-religious is heavily influenced by than an obsolete pre-scientific explanation of the our circumstances. Each perspective has value and origins of our species. These realities are at the heart deserves respect. Such respect does not preclude of our conflicts and go to the essence of our identities debate, and cruelty and intolerance should be as creatures who overdo things – even to the point of resisted. Yet when people are facing extreme threatening the existence of our own planet through circumstances, compassion may demand that people pollution, global warming or nuclear war. go along with, or even assert something they know is untrue. In a debate with Richard Dawkins last year, Absence of religion the Bishop said they both agreed there were Some people, often in northern Europe, have no circumstances where a tender fiction is the best truth interest in religion or what it has to say. Life is its that can be offered to the suffering. Indeed, the idea own meaning, simply to be lived; don’t ask deeper of truth is not a simple one and he concluded with questions, just get on with it. This is the predominant the words: “Sometimes our certainties can be view of our culture. In its weak form there may be crucifying – so beware of them”. wistfulness about the non-existence of God and the comfort available from belief. The strong version is deeply hostile to religion and regards it as a negative force to be rooted out.

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Questions to Richard Holloway > Asked his view of evolution and the implications that had for the idea of God, Bishop Holloway said he accepts Darwin’s theory without difficulty. It does, though, cause problems for those who have a Creationist view and regard God as a ‘potter’ who designed and made everything. There is no contradiction in believing in an ultimate intelligence behind all things and embedded in all things, and an acceptance of science.

> On the issue of ‘Intelligent Design’ he said it was a way to try to smuggle God back into the evolutionary process. ‘Intelligent Design’ involves dishonesty because it seeks to appear accepting of science, but is simply putting God in a white coat.

> Bishop Holloway was questioned on whether he was angered by those who refuse to accept the evidence of science. He said that people who have a complete package of answers go through life in an impermeable bubble. There is little point in arguing with those of fixed views as they do not negotiate or listen; they simply assert their ‘superior’ truth over your ignorance. Their condition is psychological rather than intellectual.

> Asked if religion ever needs science to make it plausible, he said they are different languages, as religion is poetry and myth. The difficulty is when people treat religion as a knowledge system.

Questions to both speakers > Asked where he placed himself along his continuum, Bishop Holloway said he was on the cusp of weak religion and after religion. On the whole, religion is a human construct, but carries great value and meaning. Whilst he still goes to church, it is with some discomfort as there are too many sermons expressing certainties about God.

> Explaining how he moved from a traditional religious outlook to his current position, Bishop Holloway said it was a slow process – his default had been an uncertainty about God but a conviction that one should live as if there is an ultimate truth which is of light and not cruelty. However, attending a conference which was deeply homophobic had made it impossible for him to remain a bishop.

> Asked about his religious past, Professor Jones said that at school he soon recognised that the RE teacher did not believe what he taught. Attempting to persuade people of something one does not believe in, he added, is a sure way to turn them against it. On Bishop Holloway’s spectrum he regarded himself as anti-religious. All religions, no matter how benign they wish to appear, ultimately argue that theirs is the truth that must be accepted or face damnation.

> On the issue of whether we can direct our own evolution, Professor Jones said this is something we have always done. One of the greatest changes we made was the introduction of sewage works which transformed public health in the 19th century. Even relatively minor changes such as bans on smoking in public places, are having an impact – by reducing the number of heart attacks it has enhanced the survival chances of those predisposed to them.

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Workshop session The students gathered in mixed groups from different schools to consider their response to four set questions. They also looked at specimens brought along by National Museums Scotland that showed different aspects of evolution at work. These included snail shells, the patterns on which illustrated how animals adapt to different environments. There were also fossils of extinct species, stick insects and sharks’ teeth, the last of these showing how a successful phenomenon will endure, as sharks evolved some 400 million years ago and have been so successful that they remain at the top of their food chain. The students also filled in forms provided by Bishop Holloway to show where they placed themselves on his continuum.

Conclusions Professor Jones asserted that religion had held science back for centuries. In the contemporary world he pointed to the absence of pure science in much of the Middle East. However, he agreed with students who had argued that religion can be seen as a forerunner of science – saying that Genesis can be seen as the first genetics text - book, as it raises questions about who belongs to which group, and whether characteristics like good and evil are innate. But whilst religion can ask questions, only science can answer them. The Professor also questioned whether religion and science can co-exist, because the one is based on a conviction that a certain set of beliefs are right, and the other is dedicated to questioning everything. Bishop Holloway argued that religion is almost Darwinian in its capacity to adapt to changes in understanding. He challenged the Professor’s representation of how science works – pointing to the way that those with differing scientific views have spent decades defending their own ideas against challenge. Nowadays, religion has value because it provides an effective means of considering the ethical implications of what science does and produces.

Final questions > The speakers were asked if they would rather have a world without religion or one without science. Bishop Holloway said a world without science would not be a human world, as we need to be able to question. When religion is in control it can become corrupt and oppressive. Professor Jones agreed, and said that humans are fundamentally scientific, as they are always experimenting and questioning, even if it’s not in a formal fashion. > On the subject of embryonic stem cell research, both speakers felt the Warnock Report had achieved a sensible compromise. Bishop Holloway said that whilst it is important to respect the views of others on important issues such as reproduction and abortion, it is vital for all to recognise that the world contains a variety of valid moral standpoints. Good people can disagree. Professor Jones said it is an area in which science needs to stand to one side and decisions must be made on the basis of ethics.

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Pupil Feedback Following wide-ranging debate on their set questions, representatives from each group presented their findings.

QUESTION 1 > Is Man just another animal – or something more? Humans’ internal structures show that we are animals, but we are marked out from other species by the development of our minds. Our use of language can be taken as powerful evidence that whilst we are animals, we are a species apart. However, the pupils cautioned against making too many sharp distinctions. Other animals have evolved their own forms of communication that serve their needs very effectively – a cat is perfectly able to let its owner know when it is hungry or wants to go out. Research into the Caledonian Crow shows that animal communication can be highly sophisticated, indeed the FoxP2 gene, which may be associated with human speech, is also highly active in some other species.

Reasons to suggest that humans are not something more: > Desire to survive (e.g. eat, breed / carry on species) > Humans also had to evolve to our current state > Humans and other animals both evolve from a current ancestor > Female chimpanzees help other chimpanzees with their young > There is no definite evidence that evolution has stopped > Other animals communicate with a variety of sounds – how do we know this isn’t talking?

Reasons to suggest that humans are something more: > Humans are self aware – they have a sense of past, present and future > Humans think of others, have a sense of conscience, and have empathy and sympathy > Humans are in control of their own fate e.g. suicide > Humans are something more because they are the pinnacle of evolution > Humans have created social / physical societies > Humans are more intelligent than animals – we have developed our own complex languages, and can learn and understand other languages, we talk and think more deeply than other animals

In conclusion: Humans are not something more than animals but they are something different.

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QUESTION 2 > Why do people from different places look so different? What you look like is controlled by your genes, and these are controlled by natural selection, and natural selection is a product of the environment you inhabit. The pupils considered the evidence from sickle cell trait and sickle cell anaemia as evidence for how evolution has created distinctions between some parts of the human species. Sickle cell trait exists among people of African descent because it provided protection against malaria. In areas where malaria was not a threat, the negative consequences outweigh the benefits, and so it has been eliminated by the evolutionary process. The pupils also considered skin colour and the different levels of melanin found in certain racial groups. Whilst Professor Jones had asserted that black skin was a response to environments where there was a great deal of light, the pupils felt that there are some light-skinned groups living in sunny climates. At the same time there are groups with dark skin who live in shaded forest environments. The pupils concluded that whilst melanin levels showed the evolutionary process at work, it was more strongly related to heat and humidity than sunlight.

The following reasons were given as suggestion as to why people from different places look so different: Health: > Fitness > Survival of the fittest > Ability to procreate, pass on characteristics Culture: > Piercings, neck rings (the culture that sees the ladies wear rings round their necks which changes their appearance) > Choice of diet e.g. vegetarian > Populations who survive solely on self (African tribes) are more powerful and muscular. Whereas we, who rely on supermarkets have smaller muscles and frames. Genetics: > Genotypes (DNA) + environment = phenotypes Diet: > Malnourishment > Finches – Galapagos Islands Climate: > Melanin > Geographical barriers > Global positioning

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QUESTION 3 > If the story of the Creation in the Bible, Genesis chapters 1–3, is poetry not science, then it may still be worth reading: Which is it? The pupils discussed the nature of science and poetry. They argued that poetry can be as valid an intellectual resource as science. There is, however, a major distinction. Poetry explores truths, but the specific content may not be factually correct, whereas science is all about evidence. Genesis was written as a means of exploring the truths behind big issues such as why we are here and what is life about. The development of science has shown Biblical explanations to be inadequate as a way of understanding the realities of evolution. This, though, does not mean that texts such as Genesis 1–3 are without value, as they contain a profound record of human wisdom and remain of tremendous value as sources of insight and beauty.

> There is no evidence to support what is written in Genesis , unlike science which is evidence-based theory. > You can’t interpret science > Science has made Genesis inadequate, so we have found other theories to satisfy our need for answers to higher questions Genesis: Worthwhile: > Helps approach life with an open mind > You can seek comfort in it > Important cultural corner stone > A piece of historical literature – lyrical and beautiful > Study of old civilisation > Inspiring > Interpretable – Adam and Eve as a parable Not worthwhile: > No moral message > Pure fiction > Badly written > Sexist message > Slows scientific progress when taken literally > Suggest that mankind is the origin of all sin

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QUESTION 4 > Why is it that, today, many scientists are ignoring Darwin's advice (i.e. avoid writing on religion, confine yourself to science) and spend a lot of time attacking it? Is it possible for science and religion to co exist? After passionate debate on whether science and religion could co-exist, the pupils said they can – but not always comfortably. The areas of conflict are often at the far ends of the spectrum, emerging from strongly-religious or anti-religious positions. The differences between religion and science can also be compared to the distinctions between faiths, such as Christianity and Islam. The fact that Christians and Muslims can live side-by-side demonstrates the point. The pupils argued that organised religion was dwindling and that increasing numbers of people found themselves towards the middle of the Bishop’s continuum – as weakly religious or after-religious. The pupils quoted Einstein as saying that science without religion is lame and religion without science is blunt. They concluded the two need each other – indeed that science had emerged from religion and so must be able to co-exist. Asked if religion could hold back science, the pupil’s representatives agreed that extremism could be a brake on scientific discovery. They also argued that open-minded faith can provide a useful perspective from which to assess the social and moral implications of discoveries.

> After much debate it was decided that religion and science can co-exist if not always cooperatively. > Conflicts that do exist, exist at the far end of the spectrum (See Bishop Holloway’s slide overleaf) > Einstein said: “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” Collectively we think each would not exist without the other. > Religion is dwindling in modern society, less and less people are regular church attendees. More and more people are in the neutral spectrum. (See Bishop Holloway’s slide overleaf) > Religion and Science are very similar in their qualities and co-existence of each is the same as co-existence of, say, Christianity and Islam.

Students’ views on the day’s activities Excellent Very good Good Poor 18 28 20 0

page 14 Darwin: The Great Debate The Young People of Scotland Decide Students’ Religious Attitudes The students were asked to give their views on Bishop Holloway’s Attitude to Religion Spectrum, shown below. The questions asked and their responses are given below the spectrum.

Bishop Holloway’s presentation slide:

> The 32 pupils from schools fro m t he West of Scotland 1 Where would you place yourself? Strong religion Weak religion After religion Absence of religion Absence of religion weak version strong version 29812 1

2 Which category do you most strongly disagree with? (many pupils chose two categories in answer to this question) Strong religion Weak religion After religion Absence of religion Absence of religion weak version strong version 20 13

3 Do you think a teacher’s place on the line would affect the way they teach science? > Seven said yes, two possibly, five no. Individual comments included: > “Yes, but it shouldn’t”. > “Yes, if they had a strong view on religion it probably would”. > “Even though I don’t believe, I think religion is an important part of humanity and it’s worth studying as a great phenomenon in historical and psychological ways. It’s important to ask ourselves questions and I think about what we are and why we are here, but we shouldn’t ruin our lives getting hung up on it and worrying about it. I disagree with fundamentalism, as it is too black and white. There are shades of grey in this area and I disagree with the total disinterest about the big questions about where life started and where we are from”. > “Doesn’t bother me – let them believe what they want”. > “Belief in a subject is fundamental to the teaching of it”. > “If teachers do not believe in the topic then it will affect how it comes across”. > “It is inevitable that a person’s beliefs will affect the way they teach science. It is not desirable but there is little you can do about it”. > “Yes, although it shouldn’t. Students should be allowed to make their own decisions”. Additional comments: > “I am questioning a lot about the Catholic faith now but maybe that is a good thing. I don’t know all the answers but it’s got me thinking. These talks were really good I enjoyed them.” > “I appreciated the flexibility in presenting different opinions and appreciated both speakers frank up front honesty.”

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> The 34 pupils from Edinburgh schools

1 Where would you place yourself? Strong religion Weak religion After religion Absence of religion Absence of religion weak version strong version 7 18 81

3 Do you think a teacher’s place on the line would affect the way they teach science? > Four said yes. Individual comments included: > “It shouldn’t, but can if they’re not careful”. > “I have had teachers who have been very religious or atheists, and there haven’t been any notable effects on their teaching”. > “Christian biology teachers teach in much the same way as atheist/agnostic teachers at my school. They chose to study and teach that specific subject, so it must not bother them”. > “Possibly, since then their own views and opinions would come across”. > “It may do, if they feel that science and religion are in conflict and they feel they have a point to prove other than the syllabus”. > “Yes, they have a biased opinion even when they are told what to teach. Certain schools even ban some topics, like religious schools boycotting evolutionary theory”. > “No, because the science that is taught is factual and cannot be argued with”. > “It depends completely on the person in question”.

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Chairs and Speakers Chairperson (Edinburgh): Reproductive Biology, Developmental Biology and Professor Mary Bownes OBE FRSE Molecular Biology, and all staff and research. Vice-Principal Research Training and Community Relations and Professor of Mary Bownes is currently Vice-Principal (Pro-VC) at Developmental Biology, University of Edinburgh. the University of Edinburgh with responsibility in postgraduate affairs, widening participation, Mary Bownes studied for her Degree and DPhil at the recruitment, admission, scholarships and bursaries, University of Sussex and undertook postdoctoral community relations and sustainability. She is research in Germany and California before taking up a responsible for the transferable skills unit for Lectureship in Genetics and Developmental Biology at Postgraduate Research Student Training. the University of Essex. She moved to the Department Science communication is a particular interest, of Cell and Molecular Biology at the University of especially the development of materials for use in Edinburgh in 1979 to set up a group investigating the schools and at science festivals to encourage people genetic and molecular basis of ovarian development to take an active interest in biotechnology and how it in Drosophila. She is a Professor of Developmental affects everyday life. She is also very active in Biology and Director of the Scottish Institute for encouraging and enabling researchers to engage with Biotechnology Education. Mary has published over the public about their research and led a team from 100 research papers in peer-reviewed journals and Edinburgh to become a Beacon of Public Engagement. supervised the training of more than 27 PhD students. Mary is a Fellow of the Institute of Biology, the Royal Mary has been involved in teaching molecular biology, Entomological Society, and the Royal Society of Arts. genetics and developmental biology throughout her She is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh career and has set up new courses at all levels within where she currently Chairs the Young People’s the University, including the introduction of a new Committee and serves on the Executive Board. She is Honours course. She was Head of the Institute of Cell on the Board of Highlands & Islands Enterprise, on & Molecular Biology for a number of years, with the Board and Chairs the Education Committee for the responsibility for all Honours courses, including Scottish Association for Marine Science and is a teaching Genetics, Biochemistry, Microbiology, member of the BBSRC Appointments Committee.

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Chairperson (East Kilbride): Right Reverend Bishop Holloway FRSE Duncan Dornan, General Manager, Richard Holloway is a writer and broadcaster. The National Museum of Rural Life He is the author of twenty eight books, including Duncan Dornan studied Agriculture at Edinburgh Godless Morality, Doubts & Loves, and Looking in the University, graduating with a B.Sc. Hons in 1983. Distance . The paperback edition of his latest book, Between the Monster and the Saint: Reflections on On graduating he took up teaching, working at the the Human Condition , was published by Canongate Norfolk College of Agriculture for 5 years and then for in August 2009. Aberdeen College for 11 years, where he was Head of Land Based Studies. He left teaching to join the He was Bishop of Edinburgh and Primus (Archbishop) National Museums Scotland as General Manager of the Scottish Episcopal Church until he stood down of the new National Museum of Rural Life. in 2000. He was Gresham Professor of Divinity in the City of London 1997–2001. He was a member of the Duncan has had work published, on both contemporary Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority from and historical aspects of Scottish agriculture, in a its inception in 1990 until 1997, and chaired its ethics number of journals, including the Review of Scottish committee. He was on the BMA’s steering group on Culture and the Compendium of Scottish Ethnology. Ethics and Genetics 1995–1998. He was a member In addition to his role in the National Museums of the Broadcasting Standards Commission from Scotland Duncan currently serves as Chairman 2000–2003. He became Chairman of the Scottish Arts of the Rural Museums Network and the Lanarkshire Council in 2005 and was appointed Chairman of the Attractions Association. Joint Board of the Scottish Arts Council and Scottish Screen in December 2006. Professor Steve Jones He is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh and received its Royal Medal in 2008. A frequent Professor Steve Jones is Professor of Genetics and broadcaster, he has presented a number of television Head of Department at University College London. He series, including Holloway’s Road, The Sword and the is also the President of the Galton Institute. Professor Cross and Art and Soul. He presented BBC Radio Jones has spent many years studying the ecological Scotland’s flagship book programme, Cover Stories for genetics of snails, fruitflies and humans in an attempt three years, and regularly presents Sunday Morning to understand evolution. with Richard Holloway on BBC Scotland. He has also spent several years presenting scientific work in a more general context and has appeared on BBC Radio on more than two hundred occasions, including a long-running series on science and the arts, Blue Skies , and a six-part TV series on human genetics, In the Blood . Professor Jones has appeared in various other TV programmes, from Question Time to Late Review to Newsnight. In addition, he has written extensively in the press on scientific issues and has a regular column in The Daily Telegraph – "View from the Lab". Professor Jones has written a hundred or so scientific papers and many books for which he has won prizes. He was awarded the Royal Society Faraday Medal for Public Understanding of Science in 1997, the BP Natural World Book Prize in 2000 and the Institute of Biology Charter Medal in 2002.

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Participants

Participating Schools The National Museums Scotland Edinburgh Forum: The National Museums Scotland is the country's Tynecastle High School, Edinburgh national museum service and houses a wealth of Boroughmuir High School, Edinburgh treasures representing more than two centuries The Royal High School, Edinburgh of collecting. Collections take in everything: St Augustine’s High School, Edinburgh > From Scottish and classical archaeology East Ki lbride Forum: > To decorative and applied arts; Duncanrig Secondary School, East Kilbride Stratha ven Academy, East Kilbride > From world cultures and social history Hutchesons’ Grammar, Glasgow > To science, technology and the natural world. National Museums Scotland also provide advice, The Royal Society of Edinburgh expertise and support to the wider community, The RSE is an educational charity. The Society is creating a first-class service that informs, educates independent and non-party-political and works to and inspires. provide public benefit throughout Scotland. The RSE It achieves this by offering a packed programme has a multidisciplinary, elected Fellowship of 1500 of exhibitions and events at five national museums men and women who are experts within their fields. and draws in more than one million visitors a year, Fellows that you may have heard of include writer and as well as delivering a programme of outreach and broadcaster, Sir David Attenborough and author partnership projects, taking collections across the Dr J. K. Rowling, and previous RSE Fellows have country into schools and providing special loans to included such inspirational people as the famous other museums. Scottish inventor and engineer, James Watt and the author Sir Walter Scott, writer of Rob Roy and Ivanhoe to name just two of his works. Acknowledgements The RSE seeks to provide public benefit by: Support for the Discussion Forum from The National Museums of Scotland, the Darwin Trust of Edinburgh > Organising lectures, debates and conferences on and the University of Edinburgh is gratefully topical issues of lasting importance; acknowledged. > Conducting major inquiries; The Darwin Trust of Edinburgh is a charitable body, > Distributing over £2.5 million to top researchers registered in Scotland; Scottish Charity No. SC006400. and entrepreneurs working in Scotland; The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, > Showcasing Scotland’s research and development registered in Scotland; Scottish Charity No. SC005336 capabilities; > Facilitating two-way international exchange programmes to enhance research and enterprise; > Publishing academic journals; > And last but by no means least, the RSE provides educational activities for Primary and Secondary School students, aiming to enthuse young people about science, society and culture as well as educational lectures for the wider public throughout Scotland.

page 19 The Royal Society of Edinburgh 22 – 26 George Street Edinburgh EH2 2PQ

Tel 0131 240 5000 Fax 0131 240 5024 Email education @royalsoced.org.uk Web www.royalsoced.org.uk

The Royal Society of Edinburgh, Scotland’s National Academy, is Scottish Charity No. SC000470