Wednesday Volume 522 2 February 2011 No. 110

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 2 February 2011

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Mrs Gillan: I am happy to say that I have had sight of House of Commons that report. I continuously worry about how we will build up our economy in Wales and restore our fortunes. Like her hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Wednesday 2 February 2011 Irranca-Davies), the hon. Lady is absolutely right to say that infrastructure is important, whether it be railway The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock or roads infrastructure, or broadband. I would encourage her to make her representations directly on this matter. I hope that she has written to my right hon. Friend the PRAYERS Secretary of State for Transport and also to my office. Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): My right [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the abysmal record of the outgoing Labour Government, but let me make it clear that we on the Government Benches are arguing just as passionately for electrification right Oral Answers to Questions through to Swansea, to see the Welsh economy rebalanced from the public sector and private sector jobs coming through. We cannot have money spent on high-speed rail without electrification in Wales. WALES Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend knows that we plan to The Secretary of State was asked— invest £14 billion over the next four years to fund maintenance and investment in our railways. Whatever Great Western Main Line we end up with when an announcement is made, he can rest assured that we have left no stone unturned in 1. Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): What recent making the case for electrification into Wales. discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on the electrification of the great western Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): main line. [36719] Electrification will take many years to complete, so will the Secretary of State consult the franchisee to see 6. Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab): What whether we can have direct routes from London Paddington recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of to Bristol, Newport and Cardiff, thereby reducing the State for Transport on the electrification of the great journey time to that achieved 20 years ago? western main line. [36724] Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend is right. I have already The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): met First Great Western on that very subject, and I will I have many discussions about this matter, and I remain continue to hold meetings. We appreciate that we are fully supportive of electrifying the great western main talking about a crucial project but, as my hon. Friend line. knows, the last Government had 13 years, and all they came up with was a cheap promise and no funding to Huw Irranca-Davies: I thank the Secretary of State back it up. for that update. I never thought that I would say this, but I agreed with the Chancellor when he said last week that high-speed rail Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Will the Secretary of State please confirm that it is entirely “will provide for the next generation.” Westminster’s responsibility to maintain and develop This generation of businessmen and commuters from the south Wales line? south Wales are looking forward to a fully electrified higher-speed rail all the way to Swansea. Will the right Mrs Gillan: I am sure I do not have to tell the hon. hon. Lady do everything in her power to ensure that we Gentleman what is devolved and what is not. He knows have that as soon as possible? that the electrification of the main line is Westminster’s Mrs Gillan: I hear the hon. Gentleman, and I am responsibility. However, let me remind him that there pleased to agree with him that good infrastructure will are also important improvements that could be made to be of great benefit to our economy in Wales. However, I the diversionary lines and the Cardiff valleys network. should remind him that his party had 13 years to That is the responsibility of the devolved Administration, electrify the great western line to Swansea, yet failed to yet we have not seen any progress on that front. electrify a single inch. Mr Llwyd: Is the right hon. Lady aware that the Mrs James: I am sure that the Minister is aware that cost-benefit analysis for electrification of the south electrification of the south Wales main line to Swansea Wales line is far better than that for Crossrail? However, is vital, especially for the economy of the city, but also whereas Crossrail, at £16 billion, is going apace, nothing for the economies of west Wales. The recent Centre for has happened for the past nine months on this vital Cities report forecast that Swansea would face severe issue for the south Wales line. challenges during the recovery period. Given that news, does she agree that rail electrification to Swansea is Mrs Gillan: I remind the hon. Gentleman that plenty even more vital to local businesses and citizens in the has happened in regard to this vital issue, but this is not region? a decision that can be taken overnight. The previous 843 Oral Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 844

Government were very happy to make uncosted promises private sector in Wales was too small, but he failed to about this routing, but this is not a simple process. A address that issue while he was in government. I have range of factors must be thoroughly considered and, to continual meetings with the Welsh Assembly Government that end, the Wales Office has been working not only on these matters, and we are particularly committed to with the Department for Transport but with the Welsh encouraging business confidence through the measures Assembly Government, and I remain optimistic about a that we are taking for small businesses and others. good outcome. I know, from meeting businesses in Wales, that the cancellation of the job tax proposed by Labour went Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Does the Secretary of down particularly well with the business community. State have any meetings on rail electrification scheduled for 1 April? Dr Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): Higher education plays a big role in attracting high-quality inward investment Mrs Gillan: I am sure that if the right hon. Gentleman to Wales. Will the Secretary of State therefore join me in wants details on my diary, he can ring the office. welcoming the decision of the Labour-led Welsh Assembly Government to announce a large investment in Swansea Mr Hain: As it happens, I have details of the right university’s new science and innovation campus, which hon. Lady’s diary here. Instead of progressing rail and will be located in my constituency? Will she also outline other Wales matters, the entire Wales Office ministerial what she intends to do to support such initiatives across team—the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary, the whole of Wales? the hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones)—will be at a Conservative party fundraising event in Chesham Mrs Gillan: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. and Amersham. This is no April fool’s day story: I have I have had the privilege of going down to Swansea and the invitation here. looking at the Institute of Life Science buildings, ILS1 On the decision to electrify rail, the former Transport and ILS2, and I welcome that investment. As he knows, Secretary, Lord Adonis, said: this is a devolved matter, and the levers of power and “The business case for electrification to Swansea is strong. All the decisions about money rest with the Welsh Assembly the technical issues, for example, electrifying the Severn tunnel, Government. That is why I was so sad to see the closure, were resolved.” by the Labour Welsh Assembly Government, of some If he says that the business case is strong, why the delay? of the techniums across Wales. However, the hon. Gentleman can rest assured that I will continue to press Mrs Gillan: I am ashamed that the shadow Secretary this case, because I believe we have some of the best of State for Wales has wasted his two questions and universities in the country providing the best research resorted to trivia. Unlike him, I take this matter very and support to businesses that are looking to invest in seriously. The letter that I received from his wife actually Wales. made more sense than his questions at the Dispatch Box today. Driving Standards Agency Inward Investment 3. Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD): What 2. Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): What discussions discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for she has had with the Welsh Assembly Government and Transport on the closure of the Driving Standards other stakeholders on steps to attract inward investment Agency office in Cardiff. [36721] into Wales. [36720] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend the Secretary I have had various discussions with the First Minister of State and I have regular discussions with my right and the Deputy First Minister on attracting inward hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport and his investment to Wales. I have also discussed the matter ministerial team on a range of issues, including the with ministerial colleagues, including the Secretary of restructuring of the Driving Standards Agency. The State for Business, Innovation and Skills and the possibility of job losses is a serious matter for all Government’s trade adviser, my right hon. Friend Lord concerned, and the staff in Cardiff should not have had Brittan. This afternoon, I shall facilitate a meeting to find out about this matter as a result of the information between the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister being leaked to the media. and my hon. Friend Lord Green, the Trade Minister, on the same issue. Jenny Willott: I have been contacted by a number of constituents who are losing their jobs as a result of the Andrew Griffiths: The Secretary of State will know Driving Standards Agency office closure, and they have that Wales is heavily reliant on a small number of very told me that they are being offered no support to help large companies: 1.8% of the companies in Wales account them to find new work. Will the Minister speak to for 69% of turnover, and the number of new businesses colleagues in the Department for Transport, the Department established between 2004 and 2009 fell by 28%. What for Work and Pensions and the Welsh Assembly meetings is she having with the Welsh Assembly Government to ensure that my constituents are given as Government on support for small and medium-sized much help and support as possible so that they can enterprises in Wales? secure new work as soon as possible?

Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend is quite right about the Mr Jones: It is a matter on which my right hon. Friend figures on the private sector in Wales. Indeed, the shadow and I have already been in touch with the Department Secretary of State has often said that he thought the for Transport, and I understand that that Department 845 Oral Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 846 and the Driving Standards Agency are looking into Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): The Minister will possible redeployment options for those affected. Certainly be aware that nearly 50% of the workers in his constituency the individuals concerned will need as much support as and mine work in the public sector. Thousands will be possible and I will work with ministerial colleagues to thrown on the dole by his party, so what consultations ensure that as much as can be done is done. has he had with the Prime Minister and the Chancellor about providing additional ring-fenced funding for Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): What assessment have constituencies with large numbers of public sector workers? the Government made of the effect of job losses on the already unsatisfactory service that the DSA provides Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman should know that we through the medium of Welsh? liaise constantly with our ministerial colleagues, but he should recognise, as his right hon. Friend the shadow Mr Jones: I understand that the proposed closure will Secretary of State does, that the private sector is too have no impact on services through the medium of small in Wales and the public sector too predominant. I Welsh. was interested to see, by the way, that the hon. Gentleman has been appointed Parliamentary Private Secretary to the shadow Chancellor—no doubt deficit denial was Comprehensive Spending Review part of the job description.

4. Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): What recent Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Inward estimate she has made of the number of public sector investment and private sector job creation will help to job losses in Wales attributable to the implementation overcome the public sector job losses that we have of the outcomes of the comprehensive spending review. inherited as a result of the state of the economy under [36722] the last Administration. Given that millions of pounds worth of deals were struck between the UK and China The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales last month, does the Minister recognise and share my (Mr David Jones): The Office for Budget Responsibility disappointment that whereas the Scottish First Minister published figures last year on the expected public sector has been to China four times in the last two years, the job losses. These are based on UK-wide macro-economic Welsh First Minister has not been there once? data, so no regional figures are available. We remain committed to working with ministerial colleagues and Mr Jones: Yes, that is disappointing. China presents the Welsh Assembly Government to minimise the impact enormous opportunities for inward investment to Wales of the deficit reduction programme on the workers and and to the UK as a whole, and these are matters on families of Wales. which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is liaising closely with the Department for Business, Innovation Paul Flynn: Will the Minister use the welcome additional and Skills. two months to reflect on the proposed loss of jobs in the Newport passport office and to study the Centre for Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): As we have already Cities report, which identifies Swansea and Newport as heard and as the Secretary of State will know, hundreds the two UK cities most vulnerable in the present economic of public sector jobs in Wales have already been lost on situation and those that will have the greatest difficulty her watch. Is she aware that there will be further job in recovering? Will he also study the impact of the losses at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency when proposed closures and come up with a proposal that it closes its offices in Bangor and Cardiff? Will she tell does not unfairly punish south Wales? us what she is doing to keep those precious jobs in Wales? Mr Jones: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman welcomes the two-month extension of the consultation Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman is clearly privy to period. I can assure him that my right hon. Friend and I information to which I am not privy, but in view of the are working closely with the Department to ensure that leaked information that appears to fall into his hands so the case for Newport is put forward. The Centre for regularly, perhaps that is not surprising. Cities report makes worrying reading and it will be necessary for the Government to work closely with the Aviation Industry Welsh Assembly Government to ensure that the people in this area have sufficient skills. 5. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): What recent assessment she has made of the role of the aviation David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Will the sector in Wales. [36723] Minister join me in welcoming the decision to extend the consultation period and to undertake a full economic The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales impact assessment? Does this not show that the Government (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend and I have had are listening, despite the problems caused by the £1 trillion regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on support deficit and debt left by Opposition Members? for the aerospace industry in Wales. We have much in the sector of which to be proud. In recent weeks, both Mr Jones: Yes indeed, and I am glad that my hon. GE Aviation and Airbus have announced the creation Friend welcomes the extension of the consultation period. of jobs owing to increased demand. I can assure him that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are working closely with the Department Neil Carmichael: Like Wales, my constituency has to see what can be done to mitigate the impact on the strong supply and service links with Airbus and other area. aviation sectors in the south-west. Does the Minister 847 Oral Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 848 agree that it is essential for us to have free trade in the State ask the Secretaries of State for Business, Innovation world of aviation, and to fight protectionism wherever and Skills and for Energy and Climate Change to we see it so that we can protect jobs and provide reconsider their ports policy, which allows the construction high-value-added industries for our communities? of wind farms throughout the United Kingdom? The Government have now changed the rules to give English Mr Jones: My hon. Friend is entirely right. Airbus, ports precedence over Welsh ports. Will the Secretary which is an important employer in his constituency as of State ask them to reconsider, and to introduce joined- well as in north Wales, has a great deal of which to be up thinking to attract inward investment and create proud. Its recent announcement that it will offer permanent apprenticeships? contracts to 770 agency workers in Broughton, who will build aircraft wings following the largest commercial Mrs Gillan: Despite the deficit, we remain committed order ever, is a great vote of confidence in the sector. to apprenticeships, as, I am sure, does the hon. Gentleman. We are spending £250 million a year in England, and the Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Does the Minister agree Welsh Assembly Government have received consequential that the development of the supply chain for Airbus funding. through companies such as Magellan Aerospace and I have looked into one of the issues pertaining to Tritech in my constituency is a vital part of the development ports, namely the money provided by the Department of the aerospace sector in the United Kingdom? What for Energy and Climate Change for renewables. I understand are the Government doing to support that? that there has been a Barnettised consequential. However, Mr Jones: The Government are doing a great deal. It I will double-check because I know how important the is clear that the high-tech, high-value-added industries issue is, but I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that when will be the powerhouse for the economy in the future, matters are Barnettised, he should press the Welsh which is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of Assembly Government to spend the funds in that way. State visited the Deeside area recently to see what is being done by companies such as Toyota. As my hon. Mr Speaker: Order. Far too many private conversations Friend says, there are some extremely good high-value, are taking place in the Chamber. I want to hear Stephen high-tech companies in his constituency. Mosley. Apprentices Inward Investment

7. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): What recent discussions 8. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What she has had with the Secretary of State for Business, discussions she has had with the Welsh Assembly Innovation and Skills on the effects of her Department’s Government and other stakeholders on steps to attract polices on apprentices on the number of apprentices in inward investment into north-east Wales. [36726] Wales. [36725] The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): I have regular discussions with Welsh Assembly Government I have regular discussions with Cabinet colleagues on a Ministers and other stakeholders on a range of issues range of issues, including apprentices. The Government affecting Wales, including attracting inward investment. believe that apprenticeships are a key component of the development of work force skills and one of the best Stephen Mosley: North-east Wales and Chester share forms of work-based learning. the single economic sub-region that straddles the Anglo- Robert Halfon: Will the Secretary of State give Welsh Welsh border, so inward investment in north-east Wales backing to my campaign—supported by the Minister benefits Chester too. What action is the Secretary of for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning, State taking to ensure that local authorities and the new my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and local enterprise partnerships in England, over the border, The Deepings (Mr Hayes), who is responsible for support much-needed inward investment in north-east apprenticeships—for the establishment of a royal society Wales? of apprentices and an apprenticeship card to provide training, support and mentoring which would benefit Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend knows that I am very apprentices in the whole United Kingdom, including keen on inward investment. One of the things I did in Wales? the past two weeks was visit the Deeside hub to look, in particular, at the apprentice training taking place at Mrs Gillan: This is the first time I have heard about Deeside college. The college has links to large cities such a scheme from my hon. Friend. Next week is such as Manchester and Liverpool, which are established apprenticeship week: between 7 and 11 February, efforts clusters of high technology and innovative business. will be made to encourage more businesses to provide I am keen to work with the Welsh Assembly Government opportunities for apprentices in Wales. I should be and other Departments of state to get institutions working delighted to meet my hon. Friend, and to give whatever together in the interests of the Welsh economy and support I can to that new organisation in order to attracting inward investment to Wales. confer greater status on what I consider to be a fantastic opportunity for many young people. Mr Speaker: May I appeal to the Secretary of State to face the House so that we can all hear her? Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): There is a general consensus across the House that we need more Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Will the Secretary apprenticeships in Wales, including apprenticeships in of State make contact with Kerry Foods of Ireland, such areas as green technology. Will the Secretary of which proposes to transfer business out of north-east 849 Oral Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 850

Wales from Headland Foods Ltd in Flint, in my Groceries Code Adjudicator constituency, to Grimsby? Will she examine whether steps can be taken, even at this late stage, to retain those 10. Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): What jobs in Wales? If they cannot be retained, will she discussions she has had with the Secretary of State ensure that she stands up for the work force and their for Business, Innovation and Skills on the likely effect redundancy terms and seeks alternative inward investment on Wales of the establishment of a groceries code to help to replace those jobs? adjudicator. [36728] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Mrs Gillan: I am sad to hear from the right hon. (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend and I have Gentleman that someone is thinking of moving business regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on a out of his constituency and across the border. I hope range of issues affecting Wales, including the food that he has made representations to the Welsh Assembly industry. We believe that it is important to ensure a fair Government—I would not want to cut across anything deal throughout the food supply chain. The new body that they are doing, as they are responsible for economic will help future investment and innovation by increasing development, but my door is always open to him. If he confidence among suppliers and consumers. would like to write to me about this particular case and company, and the associated issues, I will make Mr Williams: I know that the Minister met the Farmers investigations to see how I can help. I think that that is Union of Wales last week. Did he detect the impatience the proper way of conducting business. that I detected in my discussions with the union about progress being slow on the development of a supermarket Economic Growth ombudsman? Such an ombudsman will gain support across the House. What progress has he made in his discussions and will he push the agenda further in his 9. Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con): What discussions with the Department for Environment, Food recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and Rural Affairs? on steps to assist economic growth in Wales. [36727] Mr Jones: My hon. Friend will be pleased to know, I The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): am sure, that I will be visiting his constituency tomorrow, In the past week, I have met my right hon. Friends the when I will discuss this very issue with the Farmers Secretary of State for Transport and the Home Secretary, Union of Wales. He is absolutely right: the proposal has and the Minister for Trade and Investment, Lord Green, been well received in the industry. This was mooted as to discuss a range of issues to assist economic growth in long ago as 2001 by the former Prime Minister, Tony Wales. Blair, but nothing came of it.

Greg Hands: Given this year’s corporation tax cuts, the new national insurance contributions holiday for PRIME MINISTER small businesses and the cancellation of Labour’s national insurance tax hike next month, does the Secretary of The Prime Minister was asked— State agree that this Government are restoring Wales’s good reputation as a destination for inward investment, Engagements which was so badly damaged by the previous Government? Q1. [37418] Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): If he will Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend knows that we will be list his official engagements for Wednesday 2 February. working night and day to restore Wales’s reputation as a good destination for inward investment. Indeed, my The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure right hon. Friends have already started that work by that the whole House will wish to join me in paying reducing over-regulation on business, reducing the taxes tribute to Private Martin Bell of the 2nd Battalion the on business, introducing national insurance holidays Parachute Regiment, who died last week in Helmand and rolling back the wicked jobs tax that would have province. He died a true hero, showing exceptional bravery affected business in Wales and all over the United and selflessness as he went to the aid of an injured Kingdom. colleague. It is clear from the tributes paid by those who served with him that he was a hugely respected and well-liked soldier. Our thoughts and deepest condolences Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) should be with his family, friends and colleagues. (PC): In the light of last week’s disastrous economic This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues figures, where will the private sector jobs come from to and others and, in addition to my duties in the House, I replace the public sector jobs that the Government are shall have further such meetings later today. intent on slashing? Bob Russell: I thank the Prime Minister for those Mrs Gillan: I think the hon. Gentleman should take a generous words about Private Bell, because his battalion deep breath and not talk Wales down, but talk it up. is based at the Colchester garrison. I was particularly pleased to see this week’s manufacturing A characteristic of the British way of life is its charities figures, which reflect very well on the United Kingdom and voluntary organisations. Does the Prime Minister and are a great source of optimism. I hope he will join share my concern that some local authorities and health me in sending out the message that Wales is open for trusts are using the perceived cuts as an excuse to make business and that businesses should look to us for their cuts, thus undermining voluntary organisations and investment. charities with the big society concept? 851 Oral Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 852

The Prime Minister: I absolutely share the hon. Following President Mubarak’s statement last night, Gentleman’s concern and he is right to air it. In the case may I ask the Prime Minister whether he agrees with of the Department of Health, there are not cuts in the President Obama that the stable and orderly transition health budget, which is going up. It is very important to democracy must be meaningful, peaceful and begin that the Department does everything it can, as I know now? my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is doing, to protect the very important voluntary organisations working The Prime Minister: We absolutely take that view. in that Department. Yes, there are reductions in local The transition needs to be rapid and credible, and it government spending, as there would be, frankly, whoever needs to start now. As the right hon. Gentleman says, was standing at the Dispatch Box now, but I urge local we should be clear: we stand with those in this country authorities to look first at their own costs. It is only who want freedom, democracy and rights the world when they can show that they are sharing chief executives over. That should always be our view. We cannot watch and cutting out their own bureaucracies that they can the scenes in Cairo without finding it incredibly moving— show that they need to make reductions elsewhere. In people wanting to have those aspirations in Egypt, as some cases, they are not yet being convincing. we have them in our country. The Government take a very strong view that political Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the reform is what is required, not repression. We have Prime Minister in honouring the memory of Private made that clear in all the calls I have made, including to Martin Bell from 2nd Battalion the Parachute Regiment. President Mubarak and, yesterday, the Egyptian Prime He showed enormous bravery and dedication, as the Minister. As the right hon. Gentleman says, the key Prime Minister has said, and we send condolences to all question is, have they done enough? President Mubarak his family and friends. Last weekend, I saw for myself says he is going, and we respect that, but what matters is the bravery and commitment of our troops in Afghanistan not just the orderly transition, but that it is urgent, and all those involved in our wider effort there. Like credible and starts now. The more they can do with a everyone who visits, I came away with an overwhelming timetable to convince people that it is true, the more I sense of admiration and humility and I pay tribute to think the country can settle down to a stable and more everyone who is based in Afghanistan. democratic future. May I ask the Prime Minister about the unfolding situation in Egypt? Will he update the House on the Edward Miliband: I think the whole House will be important issue of the security of British nationals, and pleased by the Prime Minister’s answer and share the inform us of the arrangements being made for those view he has expressed. Is it not also clear that, far from who want to return to the UK? indicating support for extremism, the people on the streets of Egypt are demanding some very basic things— The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman jobs, freedom of speech and the right to choose by for his generous tribute to our troops and for his visit to whom they are governed? We have a clear interest in Afghanistan. It is very important that we go ahead in stability in all countries in the region, but is it not now this difficult endeavour on a cross-party basis, and I apparent that the best route to stability in Egypt is praise him for what he has said. precisely through democracy? On Egypt, of course he is right: the first concern should be for our UK nationals and the situation they The Prime Minister: I agree with that. I think that we are in. There are about 30,000 UK nationals in the Red should take the view that the long-term interests of sea area, which at the moment remains calm and stable. Britain lie in a stable middle east and a stable Arab We have not yet changed travel advice about that part of world. We will not get that stability unless they make Egypt. In terms of the rest of Egypt, there are about moves towards greater democracy. 3,000 UK citizens in Cairo and about 300 in Alexandria. Where I think we need to be clear is that when we talk In terms of making sure that those who want to return about greater democracy, we do not just mean the act of can, and we have urged many to do so, there are still holding an election; we mean the building blocks of very good commercial flights and we have added a democracy. I want to see a partnership for open societies flight commissioned by the British Government. In the where we encourage stronger civil society, stronger rights, past 48 hours, 1,000 UK citizens have returned. stronger rule of law, a proper place for the army in The UK Government have acted swiftly. We had a society and a proper independent judiciary. It is those rapid deployment of 25 special consular staff to Cairo things—the building blocks—that I think can give us a and the military logistics team of eight was sent out stronger, more stable, more democratic future that will immediately. We were the first country to set up a team very much be in our interests, and theirs as well. at Cairo airport, and many other countries have gone on to imitate that. I do not take any of this for granted— Edward Miliband: I am sure there is a consensus there should be absolutely no complacency—but I think across the House on the points that the Prime Minister our ambassador, Dominic Asquith, and his team have makes, and I know he will keep the House updated on done an excellent job and we should praise them. the situation in Egypt. I want to turn now to Afghanistan. We support the mission and the timetable he has set for Edward Miliband: I am grateful to the Prime Minister the end of combat operations by British troops. During for that reply. Let me now ask him about the wider my visit, the commanders on the ground told me that issues on Egypt. I think everybody has been moved by we are bringing real pressure to bear on the insurgency. the images we have seen on our screens in the past few Will he provide the House with his latest assessment of days of hundreds of thousands of people, against the overall progress of our mission in the light of the overwhelming odds, demanding a more democratic future. timetable that has been set? 853 Oral Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 854

The Prime Minister: I am grateful for that. We are reference to encouraging the political track, it is important making progress in Helmand, but it is important not to that we engage not just with the Afghan Government, focus just on Helmand; we have to look at the rest of but with the Pakistan Government. It should be our Afghanistan too. If we look at where we are responsible aim to create an Afghanistan that is stable enough for for—Helmand itself—we see that Government authority us to take our troops home without it becoming a has gone from six provinces to 12. That is where the hotbed of terrorism. We will not be able to do that Afghan Government have control, out of a total of 14. unless we engage with the Pakistanis. That is the key to That is progress. Crucially, the increase in the Afghan solving the problem, and having a political track so that national army is on target for 171,000 soldiers by the those who have been opposed to us recognise that there end of this year and 134,000 police. is a democratic path—a peaceful path—that they can I think the key is the better balance of forces we now follow, but they must give up violence and renounce have. There has been a surge in the number of troops al-Qaeda before that can happen. and we have a better balance between the US and the UK forces, so we are more thickly concentrated in fewer Q2. [37419] Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): East areas and better able to do the job. We have set this clear Anglia celebrated in October the announcement that timetable, saying we do not want UK forces to be in the Government had put aside the funding required to combat or in large numbers by 2015. I believe that is complete the dualling of the A11, and the support of achievable, but we are going to have to work hard on the Prime Minister then was very much welcomed. Will training the Afghan national army and pursuing a he join me and our coalition colleagues across the political track to reintegrate those who have been involved region in pressing for an early start date for the scheme in insurgency, and we also need to ensure that the so that the economic benefits can be delivered as soon government of Afghanistan improves in the way that I as possible? know the right hon. Gentleman believes, too, is important. The Prime Minister: All of us who visited Norwich at Edward Miliband: It is that point about the political the time of the by-election remember how important track that I want to pursue with the Prime Minister. the A11 is to people in Norwich. We have guaranteed Does he agree that setting a timetable makes it even the funding in the spending review. We are spending more important that we have a lasting political settlement, over £30 billion on transport infrastructure over the and one that endures beyond the departure of British next four years. Work on the A11 is an important troops? Does he further agree that an inclusive political project. The Highways Agency is preparing a programme settlement must reach out to those elements of the for how it will be delivered, and construction work will insurgency that are prepared to break all links with start in the current spending review period. al-Qaeda, renounce violence and respect the Afghan constitution? Q3. [37420] Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): Dylan Scothern is a six-year-old autistic boy in my constituency. At six years old, he has had his speech and language The Prime Minister: Those are the absolutely key therapy support at his school taken away because he is conditions. To those who worry about a timetable, I too old. What does the Prime Minister think I should would say that setting a timetable encourages people in say to his mother, Rachel, who is outraged at the way in Afghanistan themselves to recognise that they have to which the support for that autistic boy has been taken take the steps necessary to take control of their country away? again—so, yes, we do need this political track. We need to work much harder at it. The keys are separating the Taliban from al-Qaeda, rejecting violence and accepting The Prime Minister: I am sure the hon. Gentleman, the basic tenets of the Afghan constitution, and we like anyone in the House, will work as hard as he can to need to push this extremely hard so that we can do what help that family to get the therapies that they need. we all want to do, which is bring our brave soldiers What that means is going to the county council and home at the end of this conflict. arguing the case, as many of us have had to do not only with constituents, but with our own children. One has to make the fight. We intend to produce a paper on Edward Miliband: I sense that people are not used to special educational needs that will try to reform the way this kind of Prime Minister’s questions, but let me such things are done and make it less confrontational. finally emphasise to the right hon. Gentleman the urgency I know as a parent how incredibly tough it is sometimes of supporting the Afghan Government in establishing to get what one’s family needs. that political settlement. I will support him in all the efforts he makes on that with the United Nations, the Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I thank the United States and all our NATO partners. What concrete Prime Minister and the Ministers who have been so steps does he believe we can take between now and the helpful over the past 24 hours with regard to the Pfizer Bonn conference at the end of the year to make that closure in my constituency in Sandwich. Will my right happen? hon. Friend assure me and my hon. Friends from east Kent that the Government will do everything they can The Prime Minister: I am sure the right hon. Gentleman to secure the site, the highly skilled employees and the is right. From all the noises off, it is clear that people local economy in east Kent? would prefer a bun fight, but sometimes it is sensible to have a serious conversation about the issues that we The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right to speak face. I know and he knows that when we visit our troops out about that depressing news. Pfizer’s decision is bad in Afghanistan they want us to discuss what they are news. My office has been in contact with the company doing—to discuss it sensibly and try to get it right. With and I spoke to the company again this morning. There 855 Oral Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 856 is no doubt that the decision is being taken not because previous Government, but I am absolutely clear that of some UK-based issue, but because the company has what we want to see from the banks is a lower bonus decided to exit some whole areas of endeavour, such as pool and more lending, and we want to see them allergies and respiratory diseases. The company is keeping contributing more in tax to the Exchequer. I am quite all the options open for what should happen to the site, convinced that we will see all of those things from the including getting partner organisations to continue work discussions that we are having. there and getting other companies to come in, because it is a state of the art site and it has brilliant employees Q6. [37424] Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) doing great work there. The Government will do everything (Con): The local NHS trust in Shropshire is proposing they can, co-ordinated by my right hon. Friend the major reconfiguration changes to services throughout Minister for Universities and Science and the head of the county, including maternity and paediatric services. the Office for Life Sciences, to try and make sure that Those are causing significant concerns for local Shrewsbury we make the best of a depressing piece of news. doctors, GPs and patient groups. Can the Prime Minister give an assurance that those concerns will be taken on Q4. [37421] Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): Can the board and acted upon before any changes are made? Prime Minister confirm a report in today’s Financial My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire Times that the Deputy Prime Minister has written to (Glyn Davies), whose constituents also use the Royal him suggesting that councils should be given the power Shrewsbury hospital, shares my views. to raise their own fuel duty, and does he agree with him? The Prime Minister: I can certainly given that assurance, because my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary has The Prime Minister: The Deputy Prime Minister and put in place much stronger arrangements for making I write to each other and speak to each other on a sure that local people are listened to when these discussions frequent basis. I will put it like this: what we both want are taking place. No changes will be allowed unless they to see is well-resourced local councils that have greater focus on improving patient outcomes, unless they consider powers, greater devolution and less top-down bureaucracy patient choice and unless they have the support of the than we had under the Labour party. GP commissioners, and remember that in the future health system it will be the decisions of GPs and people Q5. [37422] Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): that will drive the provision of health services, not This Friday, hundreds of Mid Bedfordshire residents, top-down decisions made by Ministers in Whitehall. 24 parish councils, the Marston Morteyne Action Group and I will provide a very warm welcome to Q7. [37425] Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): the visiting members of the Infrastructure Planning With wage freezes, pension cuts, legal aid cuts, tens of Commission who will be coming to decide whether to thousands of public workers sacked and the disabled grant planning permission for the huge incinerator that and poor hit, how can the Prime Minister justify the Covanta wishes to put in my constituency. If we are build up of a £50 billion election war chest at the truly the party of localism, will the Prime Minister give expense of these vulnerable, hard-working people? his assurance that the draft national policy statements that will guide the IPC in its decision will be amended The Prime Minister: All of the things that the hon. so that the weight is given to the wishes of local people? Gentleman says about the tough decisions we have had If they do not want it, it should not be imposed on to make about pay, about pensions and about welfare, them. they are all, each and every one, the consequence of the Government that he spent 13 years supporting. The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for her question. We can actually go a bit further than that: I Q8. [37426] Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): This week, can confirm in her own case that, yes, the IPC will be I met a gathering of ESOL—English for speakers of taking representations from local people, but of course other languages—students at the Keighley campus of as a Government we have committed to abolish the Leeds City college. Sadly, too many children in Keighley IPC, because we think that it is too much of a top-down, start school unable to speak English. Does the Prime bureaucratic method and that there should be ministerial Minister agree that there is a responsibility and obligation decisions that can take into account local opinion and on parents to make sure that their children speak English? be more democratically run. The Prime Minister: I completely agree, and the fact Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Does is that in too many cases that is not happening. The the Prime Minister share my dismay at the fact that, previous Government did make some progress on making despite being 86% publicly owned, the Royal Bank of sure people learned English when they came to our Scotland is still dishing out huge bonuses? May I suggest country; I think we need to go further. If we look at the to him one course of action that might be helpful? Will number of people who are brought over as husbands he agree with me that those bankers who defy Government and wives, particularly from the Indian sub-continent, and continue to make these grotesque bonuses should we see that we should be putting in place, and we will be never be considered for any honours in future? putting in place, tougher rules to make sure that they do learn English, so that when they come, if they come, The Prime Minister: First of all, I congratulate the they can be more integrated into our country. right hon. Gentleman on his new position—[Laughter.] That has probably ended his career, so I am sorry for Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): There are 51 disabled that. We are in discussions with RBS about this issue. workers at the Remploy factory in Aberdare in my We are bound by a contract that was signed by the constituency, and they have all been offered voluntary 857 Oral Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 858 redundancy. They take pride in the product they make. Q11.[37429]DrWilliamMcCrea(SouthAntrim)(DUP): Two years ago, the current Deputy Prime Minister Prime Minister, before the election you came to the pledged his support to the Remploy workers. What will Province, entered into a contract with the people of the Prime Minister do? Northern Ireland and promised to bring change to “our economy”. In your speech about the contract, you The Prime Minister: My understanding is that we told the people to inherited a plan that was actually phasing out support “read it, keep it, stick it to your fridge, use it to hold us to for the Remploy workers. That is actually what we account”. inherited. [HON.MEMBERS: “No.”] I will get back to the Ten months later, we have lost £4 billion from our right hon. Lady if that is not correct, but we will do capital budget, and there is rising unemployment. Can everything we can to try to support and help into work you update the House on any progress to reduce radically people who are disabled. That is exactly what the new Northern Ireland’s level of corporation tax, bearing in benefits system and the new Work programme will be mind that we are in competition with the Irish Republic, all about. which this country bailed out recently? The Prime Minister: I remember the visit that the Q9. [37427] Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Would my hon. Gentleman mentions, and one of the things we right hon. Friend describe the biggest structural deficit said was that we would sort out the Presbyterian Mutual in the G7 as a golden economic inheritance? Society, and I am proud to say that we have done that and delivered that important pledge to people in Northern The Prime Minister: I certainly would not, and my Ireland. Everyone in Northern Ireland knows that we hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, which is have got to rebalance the economy: the public sector is that at the weekend the shadow Chancellor stated boldly too big, the private sector is too small. My right hon. that there was no structural deficit when Labour left Friend the Northern Ireland Secretary is looking at all office, even though— the potential of things such as enterprise zones and different tax rates to try to help to bring that about. Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op) indicated That is exactly what we are committed to. assent. Q12. [37430] Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): During The Prime Minister: He nods now, even though the my recent visit to Ponteland high school, pupils told me Institute for Fiscal Studies could not be clearer that we that apprenticeships were their No. 1 priority. With had one of the biggest structural deficits of anywhere strong ongoing local schemes already operating in the in the advanced world. I have to say, if you start in area at Egger and SCA, will the Prime Minister back opposition from a position of complete deficit denial, the skills for work campaign to encourage more youngsters you will never be taken seriously again. in the north-east to take up the apprenticeships that are there? Q10. [37428] Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): With The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely youth unemployment at its highest level since records right to raise this. We have made some difficult decisions began, will the Prime Minister reconsider the decision in this spending round, but we have increased the funding to scrap the future jobs fund? for apprenticeships so that we will be funding 75,000 more apprenticeships than what was planned under Labour. The Prime Minister: First, may I say how good it is to We think this is absolutely vital not just to help young see the right hon. Gentleman back, well and in his people into work for the short term but to make sure place? As I said last week, youth unemployment is a they can have good and worthwhile careers in our problem that got worse during the boom years under rebalanced economy. the previous Government, then got even worse during the recession and is still, yes, a very big problem. I do Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Airborne Systems not believe the future jobs fund is the answer, because it in my constituency is a brilliant little world-leading was five times more expensive than other schemes, and company that makes parachutes for the UK, but also in some places such as Birmingham only 3% of the jobs the international market. However, it is in danger of were in the private sector. It was not a good scheme, and being stuffed in a tender competition, which will cost it is going to be replaced with better schemes, but 50 jobs that will go to a French company. My local everyone in this House needs to work together on how company’s products are cheaper and better, and there is we tackle youth unemployment—a scourge that has got an opportunity for the Prime Minister to intervene and worse over the past 13 years. allow it, at its own cost, to put them into trial for the UK MOD. That will lead to exports as well. Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): Will the The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes a Prime Minister commit to making continued support passionate plea for a business in his constituency, and for the common fisheries policy absolutely conditional he is absolutely right to do that. I am sure that the on an end to the appalling phenomenon of fish discards? Ministry of Defence will hear what he says. Of course, I want every opportunity for British defence manufacturers The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend will speak for to compete and succeed, and we are doing everything many in this House when he says that the current we can to help them. We have just been talking about regime of discarding perfectly healthy fish is not acceptable apprenticeships. We are also delivering the lowest rate and needs to change, and now we are in government we of corporation tax in the G7. All these things will help have an opportunity to try to work to that end. us to compete with, take on and beat our competitors. 859 Oral Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 860

Q13. [37431] John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): Following people up and down the country are asking is whether the report in December by the right hon. Member for this Prime Minister even has a plan A for our young Birkenhead (Mr Field) about how to prevent poor people. children from becoming poor adults, what actions does the Prime Minister intend to take to address the The Prime Minister: What is clear is that only one central recommendation of the report—that greater side in this House has a plan at all. The Opposition have prominence should be given in public policy to the absolutely no plan apart from to deny the deficit, to say earliest years? there was not a problem, and to pretend that somehow they handed on a golden inheritance when in fact we The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is quite right. It had the biggest budget deficit of advanced countries is good that the right hon. Member for Birkenhead and an absolute pile of debt to deal with. (Mr Field) has produced this excellent report about how we try to help children out of poverty. The two Mr Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): most important steps we are taking are funding two-year- Given the commitment of the coalition Government to olds in nursery education—a pledge never made and reinvigorate occupational pensions, will the Prime Minister never delivered by Labour—and a pupil premium for all welcome the launch yesterday by the National Association children who are on free school meals so that the money of Pension Funds of its workplace retirement income follows them into school. Labour Members shake their commission, which is designed to produce proposals to heads. They had 13 years to do it; they never did. improve the adequacy of pensions so that people can live with dignity and with enough money in retirement? Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): There were 4,000 stillbirths in the United Kingdom last The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very year, and obviously the pain for those families is utterly good point. We want to see strong private sector pension unimaginable. Will the Prime Minister give a guarantee provision. The history of that provision over the past that there will be no cut in the funding of research into 13 years has been depressing, because so much money the causes of stillbirths? has been taken out of the pension system, not least by the pensions tax that happened year after year, and The Prime Minister: What I can tell the hon. Gentleman which was probably proposed by the two people who is that there is no cut in the national health service. We now run the Labour party. We want to see stronger are putting £10.6 billion extra into the national health private pension provision so that people can have service during this Parliament, against the advice of independence and dignity in their old age. many, including his own Front Benchers. I will get back to him on the specific research that he speaks about. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Two Every hon. Member will have met constituents who hundred years ago, the privileged people in this country have been in this situation, and I know how heart-breaking managed to steal the English common land from the it can be. Where we can get to understand more what English common people. Why are the Government the cause of stillbirth is, of course we should be doing returning to such activity by taking the forests and that work. woods of our country from the ordinary people?

Q14. [37432] Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): Last The Prime Minister: This Government are taking month, Ockendon school in my constituency celebrated a completely different approach from the previous becoming an academy. Staff and governors at the school Government, who sold off forestry with no guarantees are delighted with the freedoms that becoming an academy of access, no guarantees that it was free and no guarantees has given them. Could my right hon. Friend give some about habitat. I am, of course, listening to all the words of encouragement to other schools in Thurrock arguments that are being put on this matter. However, I that are considering taking this important step? ask whether there are organisations, such as the Woodland Trust and the National Trust, that could do a better job The Prime Minister: I would certainly encourage all than the Forestry Commission. I believe that there are. schools to look at academy status because of the extra Is there a problem with the Forestry Commission— freedom and responsibility it gives them. The evidence [Interruption.] is now clear that academy schools, particularly those in less well-off areas, have transformed the results in those Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the places. In the past nine months, as a coalition Government, Prime Minister. The Prime Minister must not be shouted we have managed to create as many academy schools as at. The question was heard and the answer must be the previous Government did in the past seven years. heard. We are making good progress with this, but we should keep up the pressure. The Prime Minister: I say to the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), is there not a problem Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): A ComRes when the Forestry Commission is responsible for regulating poll for ITV News found that 48% of the British people forestry and is a massive owner of forestry? We do not feel that the Government have lost control of the economy, accept with that with the Bank of England or other and the Chancellor himself has admitted that he has no organisations. It is therefore worth considering whether plan B. Given that this Government have axed the we can produce a system that is better for access, better future jobs fund, trebled tuition fees and scrapped the for habitat, better for Natural England and better for education maintenance allowance, the question that the countryside that we love. 861 2 FEBRUARY 2011 862

Point of Order High Pay Commission Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order 12.32 pm No. 23) Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You are well 12.34 pm known for standing up for the right of the House to Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): I beg to hear statements from the Government before they are move, heard on the “Today” programme. Unfortunately, it has happened again. It was announced this morning on the That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for the The Guardian establishment of a High Pay Commission; and for connected “Today” programme and to readers of purposes. and The Times, that an additional £400 million will be spent on mental health. On the face of it, that is good The Bill would begin to do something credible about news. However, although the Deputy Prime Minister the problem of high pay for those at the very top of the and the Minister of State, Department of Health, the earnings ladder in Britain, who are gorging themselves hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) while the rest of the country is doing badly. I am have time to tour television studios, they do not have delighted that the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation time to make an oral statement to this House and to and Skills is in his place, because he was an advocate of answer questions such as whether this is new money a high pay commission in an earlier incarnation. I hope and how the money will be spent to get the results that that he still shares that view this side of the general we all want to see. election. The public are still furious about the Government’s Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her failure to deal with bankers’ bonuses. Nothing makes point of order, and for notice of it. A written ministerial people up and down this land so angry as the knowledge statement has been given today. I have not received that before the election both coalition partners promised notice of an oral statement. The House will be aware tough action on bankers’ bonuses, but the Bob Diamonds that the Procedure Committee today published a report of this world and their gilt-edged friends still operate on ministerial statements. Matters of policy must be seemingly with impunity. People contrast that with communicated first to the House, but the precise means members of the Government who did not commit by which that is done is ordinarily left to the Government. themselves to the austerity programme that is being Today, there is nothing that I can usefully add, but she brought in, but who are now presiding over a situation has registered her concerns forcefully and they will have in which real wages will have dropped by 4% between been heard by the Leader of the House. 2009 and the end of this year, the Governor of the Bank Before the hon. Member for Manchester Central of England is on record as warning of the biggest (Tony Lloyd) rises to propose his ten-minute rule motion, squeeze since the 1920s, and the Office for Budget I appeal, as I should have done before the hon. Member Responsibility, the Government’s own independent body, for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) says that average pay for those on low and middle rose, for Members to leave the Chamber quickly and incomes will drop by £720 a year. quietly, showing the same courtesy to the hon. Gentleman People in work are making big sacrifices, and of as they would want to be shown to them in similar course those who will lose their jobs as a result of the circumstances. Government’s programme will lose out even more. When the Governor of the Bank of England says that that is the inevitable consequence of an economy that is rebalancing, we therefore have to say that we also need some rebalancing of the pay of those at the very top. The top-paid are doing not just very well but very much better than they were not so long ago. There is very little evidence that very high pay makes a material difference to the success of business in our country. In fact, rather the opposite. The gross bonus culture has actually led to short-termism, not just in the banking industry but across British industry of all kinds. There is little evidence, too, that pay needs to be ratcheted up to such levels to retain the top managers. There is no brain drain of managers. British managers are actually better paid than those anywhere else other than the United States, and there is no systematic evidence of our managers being poached and moving across the Atlantic. The arguments in favour of top pay are effectively spurious. Top pay is driven by the bonus culture and by the capacity of remuneration committees—the old pals’ act—to operate on the basis of “I’ll scratch your pay packet as long as you’ll scratch mine.” That is wrong and unacceptable. If we look at the evidence on pay, we see that the bonus culture has grown massively in the years since 1997. That is not just in banking, because 863 High Pay Commission2 FEBRUARY 2011 High Pay Commission 864

[Tony Lloyd] inevitable result that pay is ratcheted ever upwards. Remuneration committees ought to be opened up to the the Prime Minister is right that we should not scapegoat wider world. For example, employee representatives, banking. We should examine the top pay across the whether trade union officials or others, and perhaps whole of our society. In 1997, bonuses across the City representatives of society more widely, should be on were estimated at £1.5 billion, not a small sum. By 2006, them, so that there is some reality in how pay is fixed for that figure had grown to £8.8 billion. It dropped a little top earners. at the bottom of the financial crisis, to £3.6 billion in The commission should be charged, every year, with 2008, but it is believed that this year bonuses will be making a report on tax avoidance. We know that tax back up to £7 billion. The Government, frankly, have avoidance among top earners amounts at least to an not dealt with the problem. astonishing £13 billion a year. I must tell Ministers that If we examine the pay of chief executives across recouping that £13 billion would make a serious British industry, we see that the average pay of chief contribution to the kind of deficit reduction with which executives in FTSE 100 companies was something in the Government are concerning themselves, and in the order of 47 times that of the average worker in those particular that it would make a big, material difference companies in 2000. That difference had grown to 88 times to the cuts in our police forces and our social and health in 2009, so it has doubled in real terms from already services. It is not unreasonable that those at the top, colossal levels. In fact, the average chief executive is who after all have the biggest shoulders, take the weight now paid 200 times the minimum wage. In a society and make a proper contribution by way of taxation. such as ours, fairness means that if the poor and those The thing that many people would most like the on squeezed middle incomes are playing their part in commission to look at is pay ratios. The Prime Minister the Government’s austerity programme, so should those asked Will Hutton to look at pay ratios in the public at the very top. People on 200 times the minimum sector, and recommended a guarantee that the top wage—not just the Bob Diamonds but those across all earners earn no more than 20 times those at the bottom. our industries—ought to begin to take their fair share That is a good starting point, but there is absolutely no of the strain. reason why the principle for the public sector should A high pay commission—as I said, the Business not also apply to the private sector. That 20:1 ratio Secretary is already on record as supporting the concept— might be a good starting point for the high pay commission. could begin to do something positive about the problem. The Government could ask the commission to make I hope that it can be charged with the following, among recommendations and to begin the process of a proper other things. First, we have to have transparency. We national debate. People are now being paid 200 times have to know what these people really are paid, not the national minimum wage—200 times what the lowest simply through their basic pay but through bonuses and paid people in our society are legally paid, even if we the very high pension contributions that companies ignore those who are paid less than that. make on their behalf. That is simply a matter of social Fairness, social cohesion, simple common justice and equity. Stakeholders, not just shareholders—employees, the natural decency of the British public say that we customers and wider society—are entitled to know what must now do something about high pay. The rich and is going on. The high pay commission should therefore the better off in our society are gorging themselves establish mechanisms for making transparent the whole when the rest of society is being asked to make restraint question of high pay. a way of life. It is about time that those who can afford Inevitably, the high pay commission ought also to to make that contribution are asked to do so. deal with the regulation of bonus payments, and to set Question put and agreed to. down a framework by which bonus payments can be Ordered, paid. It could set limits and time frames within which bonuses can be achieved. Of course, it could also make That Tony Lloyd, Mr Dennis Skinner, Kate Green, recommendations about the taxation of bonuses, which Ian Mearns, Jim Sheridan, Frank Dobson, Mr David is an important part of bringing the bonus culture into Anderson, Mr David Crausby and Martin Caton present some form of realism. the Bill. The commission should look at the role of remuneration Tony Lloyd accordingly presented the Bill. committees—the old pals’ act that I have described, Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on when one person looks after his friend’s pay, with the Friday 18 March, and to be printed (Bill 141). 865 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 866 and Skills (Performance) Mr Denham: The hon. Gentleman is wrong: the Opposition Day reason for the large deficit was the global banking crisis, which cut corporation tax receipts by £40 billion in a [10TH ALLOTTED DAY] year. The measures that we took, which got us out of recession quickly and had the economy growing this time last year, were the right measures. There are no Department for Business, Innovation and deficit-deniers—we are proposing the right measures Skills (Performance) for tackling the deficit. The point of this debate is that the Business Department has made wrong choice after Mr Speaker: I advise the House that I have not wrong choice in responding to the economic situation. selected the amendment on the Order Paper. The Government have been reckless in their approach to deficit reduction. They are making the wrong choices on growth. By cutting too far, too fast, the Government 12.44 pm are putting economic recovery at risk. Shrinking growth Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): I beg and rising unemployment are not only bad news for to move, families, but will make it more difficult to get the deficit That this House notes that the Business Secretary in June 2010 down. The economy should be growing by now, not called the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) shrinking. Unemployment should be coming down by the department of growth; believes that the overriding priority is now, not going up. To make things worse, the Business growth and jobs; expresses deep concern that after nine months Department has failed to produce any plan for growth BIS has failed to deliver this promise on growth, that the Growth and jobs. White Paper is still not published, that the dismantling of regional Even with a more measured and responsible approach development agencies is ‘chaotic’, that local enterprise partnerships lack powers and resources, and that regional development funding to deficit reduction, it would be private sector growth is slashed and grants for business investment abolished, causing and jobs that Britain needs. That means creating the oversubscription to the Regional Growth Fund; regrets the refusal confidence for businesses to invest, to take on people of the Sheffield Forgemasters loan; notes with concern that and grow their business, with every aspect of public responsibility for the digital economy has been transferred to policy being bent to ensuring the right conditions for a another department without consultation with business or rationale, strong, competitive and fair economy. But there is no that there has been no progress in securing lending to small plan for growth. As Sir Richard Lambert, the outgoing businesses, while bank taxes have been cut, and that BIS has director general of the CBI, said last week about the failed to persuade departments not to change planning policies and public services which damage jobs and growth; further notes Business Department, the country needs it to be the sharp reductions in adult training, that there is no longer a “Less of a talking shop, more of an action-oriented growth 10-year science funding strategy, and that BIS is prioritising champion.” unfair and damaging reforms to universities instead of enabling them to support growth; notes the lack of strategy or leadership Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Does my for key sectors vital to rebalancing the economy; shares the right hon. Friend agree that if the Government were CBI Director General’s concern that the Government has no plan serious about encouraging private sector investment, for growth and that BIS is a ‘talking shop’; and calls on the they would not have cut the grants to business that Government to take decisive action to remedy the deficiencies in that Department. poured money into our areas? That money has now been sucked away. Is not that a demonstration of the On 3 June last year, the Secretary of State for Business, Government’s inability to encourage investment in our Innovation and Skills said that he wanted his Department areas? to be the Department for economic growth. At that time, growth was running at 1.2%. Britain was emerging Mr Denham: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and from the deepest global recession for two generations. I shall address several such decisions that the Business Nine months later, Britain’s economy was shrinking—so Secretary has made. much for the Department for growth. The Government blame the snow, but in the USA the snow struck too—and Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): Will the right their last quarter growth was 0.8%. We must have had hon. Gentleman give way? the wrong sort of snow—or perhaps the wrong sort of Government. Mr Denham: Not at the moment. People are seeing prices rise, they are worried about It is not as though the Government were not warned their jobs and they wonder where jobs, growth and about what was coming. When the Tory-led Government prosperity are meant to come from. The Business took over, recovery was strengthening and unemployment Department has failed to give the leadership on growth falling. Since then, every decision they have made has and jobs that this country needs. It has made the wrong made things worse. They stopped the loan to Forgemasters, choices, harming growth and business instead of supporting showing that they had no plan to ensure that British them. At a time when other Departments needed to be companies gained from a new nuclear programme. When persuaded to put business first, the Business Department the emergency Budget was introduced in June, the Office has lost the argument. for Budget Responsibility said that growth would be slower and employment down as a direct result of the Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): I cannot Government’s measures. When they chose to make the believe that the shadow Secretary of State has started biggest cuts in the most vulnerable communities, it was his speech without admitting the appalling inheritance clear that the regions would need new growth and new that he gave this Government and without coming clean jobs. When the Government published the comprehensive about the mess in which his party left this country and spending review in October, the Office for Budget the debt and deficit that it left behind. Responsibility told them that growth would fall and 867 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 868 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) [Mr Denham] Department there has been nothing in nearly nine months. Worse than that, the Business Secretary has made the unemployment would rise. Independent organisations wrong choices. Each has made life harder for businesses from the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development that wanted to invest to create jobs and grow. Instead of to PricewaterhouseCoopers and the Local Government creating certainty and confidence, the Business Secretary Association warned that reckless cuts would destroy has sown doubt and confusion. jobs in the public and private sectors, yet the Business Secretary did nothing. Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): The right hon. Gentleman talks about a wasted year. Does he not We were promised a White Paper on growth in October. acknowledge that he was part of a Government who Then the civil servants said that there was not enough wasted 13 years, increasing taxes on businesses, national content to warrant one. Two months later, the Business insurance, regulation and the complexity of the tax Secretary was bundled aside and the Chancellor took system, and doing everything to stifle jobs and growth? charge, so now we are promised a Budget for growth on Does he not agree that he should be congratulating this 23 March. This Tory-led Government will have been in Government on reversing many of those excesses and office for 10 months and three weeks by then. That will thanking us for putting in place a policy that will lead to be 321 wasted days of complacency, drift and inactivity. growth and jobs? By the time any Budget measures are implemented, we will have had a wasted year that this country cannot Mr Speaker: Order. May I gently point out to the afford. House, first, that interventions should always be brief, and secondly, that there are time constraints? A lot of Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): The shadow Members want to get in, so over-long interventions are Minister’s accusations of inaction are not borne out by not just ineffective; they are damaging to colleagues, my area of the black country, which has already formed whatever the intention, and that is of wide application. a local enterprise partnership and had it approved, and has submitted four bids to the regional growth fund, Mr Denham: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and given what with a total of 12,000 jobs protected or created. Things you have said, the House will understand if I do not are on their way in the black country, thanks to the take too many more interventions. However, I would policies of this Department. simply point out that I was proud to be part of a Government who created 3 million jobs. After we had Mr Denham: A year ago the black country had a been in office, there were 1.1 million more small businesses functioning regional development agency. That agency than there were when we came into power. has been destroyed. The hon. Lady is clutching at straws when she says that there may come a point when Mel Stride: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? the Black Country LEP is fully functioning, but it will have no resources, no powers and no legal rights. That is Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Will the right not a step forward; it is a step backwards. That is typical hon. Gentleman give way? of the damage that the Business Secretary and his Department have done to economic policy in the past year. Mr Denham: No, I am afraid that I have tried a few interventions from the Government Benches, and they Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): A week last have not really added to the quality of the debate. Friday, together with Bolsover district council, we went The Secretary of State himself described the abolition to the east midlands region to try to get money for a of regional development agencies as “chaotic” and firm that was going to provide 50 jobs on an old ex-pit “Maoist”. In June he gave a perfectly sensible interview, site in the Bolsover area. There were quite a lot of saying that regions that wanted to keep their regional applications, but the people there said that they could development agencies could. He was overruled. He lost. not deal with them. The net result is that we were The Communities Secretary beat him. Now no part of talking for hours, but their hands were tied. The region England has a fully functioning local economic partnership still had some money available, but this Government, or a fully functioning regional development agency. It is through this Department and the Department for the last thing that business needed. The Secretary of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, were refusing to State let the Communities Secretary tear up regional let them use it to provide the jobs to get the economy to planning policies and put nothing in their place. Some grow. What a shower! 160,000 planning permissions for new homes have been lost to the building industry already. That is a blow to Mr Denham: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and construction, which is already struggling and reeling his experience will be typical of many hon. Members’ from the cancellation of Building Schools for the Future. experience, because this will have been a wasted year. Businesses have no idea how planning applications for When the global banking crisis hit, the Labour new developments will be treated in different parts of Government did not sit by hoping that something would the country under the new policies. It is the last thing turn up. In the six months after that crisis hit, we cut that business needs. VAT to boost growth; gave businesses time to pay the The Business Secretary has failed to ensure that the Revenue; speeded up payments to small businesses; migration cap does not prevent growth. Just yesterday, introduced the scrappage scheme; started the enterprise Airbus UK told the Select Committee on Business, finance guarantee; invested in key technologies and Innovation and Skills that it could not access tier-two regionally important sectors; boosted investment in immigration visas and that the Home Office was not education and health; and reformed training support responding or answering telephone calls on the matter. and expanded apprenticeships. In six months there was The Business Secretary lost that argument. The Home real energy and drive; from this Government and this Office’s student visa policy threatens the income of 869 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 870 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) further education colleges and universities. The UK’s confusion about the future of research and development seventh biggest export industry is now being put at risk tax credits. At one moment, the Government rightly because the Business Secretary has lost that battle too. back Labour’s patent box for the pharmaceutical industry; Our universities are huge drivers of growth. This year the next, Labour’s support for the video games industry above all years, the Business Secretary should have told is dropped, causing a predicted loss of 25% of jobs in every vice-chancellor to concentrate every effort on that sector. The Government trumpet an additional promoting growth and their business links in the regional, 75,000 apprenticeships over the next three years, yet national and international economy. Instead, every Labour increased the number from a planned 200,000 university is preoccupied with working out how the to 279,000 in the last year alone. This Government are shambolic, unfair and unnecessary new fees system is slowing the growth in apprenticeships, and their own meant to work. That is a complete diversion from what figures show that, each year, 500,000 fewer adults will business needed. get public support to improve their skills. In September, the Business Secretary promised tough The Government’s record of failure in regional policy, action on banks, arguing that there was a “compelling higher education, bank lending and bankers’ bonuses is case” for taxing them if they continued to pay out lengthy. It is hard to identify a single pro-business, bonuses when businesses cannot get access to finance. pro-growth policy that BIS has successfully championed He has obviously lost that battle, too. Project Merlin against opposition from the Treasury, the Department has still not reported. Small businesses are still struggling for Communities and Local Government and other to get finance. The Tory-led Government whom the Departments. There is no strategy for growth, and no Business Secretary supports are desperately casting around one knows where the Government expect it to come for face-saving measures while tax on the banks is being from, how they will support it or how it will be achieved. cut. Grants for business investment have stopped. Nissan Today, Sir James Dyson, the Conservatives’ own says that those grants helped to safeguard or create innovation champion, has referred favourably to President 1,600 jobs in the north-east. Indeed, Nissan told the Obama, who said: Business, Innovation and Skills Committee: “In America, innovation doesn’t just change our lives. It’s how “The UK has a clear choice of whether it chooses to fight for we make a living.” new business, new jobs, and rebalance the economy or allow the opportunity of this business to go elsewhere.” Sir James commented: We should all be concerned that the Business Secretary “That might seem like political rhetoric to some people, but has made the wrong choice. I wish this philosophy was shared by the British Government.” The funding for English regional development has That is from the Government’s own innovation champion. been slashed from about £1.4 billion a year from the Sir Richard Lambert has said that the Government regional development agencies to the £1.4 billion in the have regional growth fund over three years. That is funding “taken a series of policy initiatives for political reasons, apparently for the whole of English business, which, to put it into careless of the damage that they might do to business and to job perspective, is about the same amount that the Government creation.” are planning to spend on sub-post offices. Predictably, We saw that happening just before Christmas. For no because the regional growth fund has been told to other reason than the Business Secretary’s personal include bids for transport and housing, it has been unsuitability to make a competition judgment, the Prime over-subscribed tenfold. The Business Secretary is in a Minister transferred responsibility for an entire critical panic, because the future jobs fund has been scrapped industry, the digital economy, to the Department for and unemployment is rising. Businesses were promised Culture, Media and Sport. There was no public policy that the fund would support sustainable private sector reason for doing that. There was no consultation with growth and help to rebalance the economy. Will he business. The media and the creative industries have a confirm that he has changed the rules at the last minute, great interest in the digital economy, but so do advanced discouraging bids that will not create short-term sticking- manufacturing, the IT industry, the service sector and plaster jobs, and that plans to expand Birmingham retail. The years that were spent bringing industrial airport and regenerate Longbridge, which were going to sponsorship together within Whitehall so that business be put into the regional growth fund, have been put on could work better with the Government were swept hold, because it is said that they have no chance of aside in the crudest possible act of media management, succeeding? There are many projects with private sector to save the Secretary of State’s face. commitment, which could lever in huge sums of private investment, that are not going ahead. They will not even The same is true when we look forward. For all the be considered, because this Tory-led Government are words about rebalancing our economy and supporting not prepared to tax the banks fairly to invest in jobs and key sectors, there is no sign of that happening. Governments growth. cannot create private sector growth, but they can create the conditions in which the private sector is most likely The broadband infrastructure is vital for business, to grow. In the areas in which we hope to compete with but it has been delayed and delayed again. Labour had a the best in the world, such as advanced manufacturing, costed commitment to achieving universal broadband by business services, the creative industries and the low-carbon 2012 and high-speed broadband by 2015. The Government economy, every part of Government policy, from have put back universal broadband by three years, putting fundamental research to export support, needs to be the UK in the broadband slow lane. properly aligned and working together. This Government There is no coherent approach to the use of tax cling to a different view, however. They believe that if policy to support business growth. Corporation tax has they simply cut the public sector and cut corporation been cut, rewarding the banks, while capital allowances tax, the private sector will rise up of its own accord to for manufacturers have been slashed. There is total fill the gap. That will not work. Sure, the Government 871 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 872 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) [Mr Denham] personal debt, a housing bubble, a structural deficit in the budget and an overweight banking system that will make the odd eye-catching announcement to hit the collapsed. headlines and make it look as though they are doing If we want judgments on the experience, which we something, but, fundamentally, they do not believe in have now inherited and are trying to sort out— an active role for the Government. [Interruption.] I am not looking for political comment— Yesterday, Pfizer said that it was closing its plant at [Interruption.] I will take interventions later. I do not Sandwich, affecting 2,400 employees and many more in know how many Opposition Members read the speech smaller companies. That is one of the industries in that the Governor of the Bank of England made last which Britain should be leading the world. We have a week. He explained why there is a growth problem in huge advantage in fundamental and applied research the UK, and I will read out the relevant extracts. He and the NHS has huge potential for properly regulated said: clinical trials, yet one of the world’s leading manufacturers “The economy as a whole must deal with the legacy of is closing a major plant here, in Kent. Only a few weeks extraordinarily high debt levels built up prior to the crisis…The ago, the Prime Minister told us how he had personally indebtedness of the financial system doubled, from 3½ times been on the phone to the leadership of Pfizer to encourage GDP in 1998—already high by international standards—to over them to invest and employ people in the UK. The truth 7 times GDP in 2008. To appreciate the scale of that increase, even if the financial sector were to cap its debt at today’s level, it is that the Prime Minister has been snubbed. The would take more than a decade for growth in the economy to Government and the Business Department were not return indebtedness relative to GDP to its 1998 ratio.” players in that huge decision. Whatever the immediate That spells out the extremity of the problem that we reason for Pfizer’s action, this warns us all that nothing inherited and the time scale that will be required to can be taken for granted if this country is to remain restore sustainable growth. strong in this global industry. In the past year, the Business Department has done Several hon. Members rose— nothing apart from implementing Labour’s patent box tax relief. Science spending has been cut in real terms, Vince Cable: I will finish this point before I take an with capital investment down by 40%. The Government intervention. have not set out a clear vision of the future of the The Governor of the Bank of England calls in aid the pharmaceutical and bioscience industries. They have former Director-General of the CBI, who has made not said how they will support them, or made it clear to some strong criticisms. We have, of course, listened to the rest of the world that we will fight tooth and claw those criticisms and treat them with respect. It is worth for the largest share of this global industry. going back to what the Director-General said. In the The same challenge is true for the other key sectors of opening part of his speech, he described the fundamental the economy—the areas in which, if we do not succeed, problem facing the UK economy, which we are now we will not be able to pay our way in the world. The trying to deal with. It is worth reading that part of his truth is that where there should be action, there is a speech at a little length, because it encapsulates what talking shop. There is no plan, no strategy and no this whole growth debate is about. He said: vision. There is no leadership and no urgency. The “This coalition Government has been single-minded—some Government are drifting, and making the wrong choices. might even say ruthless—in its approach to spending cuts. Very They are buffeted by events, but not in control of them. unpopular decisions are being driven through on the argument For all our sakes, it is time they got a grip. that they are essential to the long-term stability of the economy. That policy is strongly supported by business, on the grounds that sound public finances are an essential foundation for a sound 1.6 pm economy.” [Interruption.] In case this gentleman becomes an icon The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and for the Labour party, let me quote what he said next. He Skills (Vince Cable): I welcome this opportunity to have said that there were “two reasons” why the public a serious debate on economic growth and jobs, but finances were in a mess: listening to the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) giving us a lecture on economic “One is that the tax and spending policies of the last Government created a substantial structural deficit—a hole in the budget that growth was a little like being offered a lesson on seamanship had to be tackled irrespective of what happened to the economic by someone on the bridge of a ship that, despite cycle. innumerable warnings, was driving at full speed into an That’s what made substantial spending cuts inevitable, irrespective iceberg. That was the experience of the British economy of who won the last election.” over the past few years. That is the position we are in. I sat on the Opposition Benches for 12 years, and twice a year the then Chancellor of the Exchequer Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I am would come along and tell us that the British economy grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way, but his had achieved the most impressive growth performance professorial picking through of a variety of quotes is since the days of the Hanoverians. One thing that the quite pitiful. Can he tell us where his growth plan is? previous Government could never be criticised for was a Where is it? lack of reports or plans. Members who were around at the time will remember the documents that we used to Vince Cable: I will describe in detail the various steps get twice a year, telling us how growth had been achieved being taken to sustain growth. If there were a silver and how neoclassical endogenous growth theory had bullet, the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen been translated into reality. It all came to a shuddering and his hon. Friends would have found it—but they halt, however, because of a combination of massive did not. 873 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 874 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): The right hon. European Union all agree that for the first time in many Gentleman says that he is concerned about the approach years, trade—exports minus imports—is driving growth of business to the deficit issue. Does business support after a long period in which we had large importation the VAT increase, which the right hon. Gentleman to feed a consumer boom fed by debt. Crucially, on himself opposed during the general election? manufacturing, to deal with the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon Vince Cable: Business—the CBI and all other businesses (Nadhim Zahawi), the Institute for Supply Management —has made it absolutely clear that it supports the tough manufacturing survey published yesterday corroborated action necessary for debt reduction. What Sir Richard what the Chartered Institute of Purchasing and Supply Lambert went on to say was: and others have confirmed: that manufacturing is growing “Spending cuts do less damage to employment and growth…than at the fastest pace—more than 5% a year—since records do tax increases.” began 20 years ago. I think that provides a very convincing answer to the right hon. Gentleman. Several hon. Members rose—

Several hon. Members rose— Vince Cable: Let me finish my point about manufacturing Vince Cable: I will proceed. and then I will take another intervention. I shall pursue the point I was making in response to my hon. Friend I referred to the core problem of the Budget. One the Member for Stratford-on-Avon about what we have difficulty we have had in debating this subject with inherited from the previous Government—a decade of Opposition Members is the state of denial not just remarkable de-industrialisation. Let us go back over the about the big problem, but more specifically about the numbers. In 1997 the share of manufacturing in the Business, Innovation and Skills budget. Our preoccupation British economy was about 20%—just a little less than has been to deliver for the coalition our contribution to in Germany, Japan and Italy. A decade later it had deficit reduction. That has been our major task over the fallen to 11%, and far more rapidly than in any other last year, and we have done that. There was a 25% cut industrial country. Manufacturing employment in that over the spending period in the BIS spend. What makes period fell from 4.3 million to 2.5 million, so we lost engagement in debate with Opposition Members difficult almost 2 million people in the manufacturing sector. is the fact that we know—because of the ring-fencing The manufacturing trade deficit over that period rose decisions made by the last Government and because of from £7 billion to £53 billion. the Institute for Fiscal Studies analysis—that they also planned to cut the BIS budget by 25%. Whenever we Mr Marcus Jones: My right hon. Friend’s argument hear these appeals to have more money for industrial is compelling. Does he agree that the Labour Government’s support, more money for the regions, more money for record on manufacturing was absolutely despicable, universities and science and more money for further because we lost those 1.8 million manufacturing jobs on education, we ask this simple question: where would the their watch? Labour Members seem to forget that. money have come from in the midst of those 25% cuts? Opposition Members have a basic problem, although Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: am not quite sure what it is. It is either an acute problem that is the core point. It is a strange irony, because many of amnesia or one of fundamental economic illiteracy. Labour Members came from industrial Britain and had Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): Does my built their movement on it. In that decade, however, right hon. Friend agree that this goes beyond mere manufacturing industry was substantially devastated, deficit denial, as it is political opportunism of the worst and we are living with the legacy of it now. What we kind? It is also irresponsible, because talking down our must emphasise—this is the core of our growth strategy, manufacturing base and all the hard-working businessmen which the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris and women in our country does no good in helping us Leslie) asked about—is that manufacturing matters, get out of the mess that Labour left behind. and we will do everything we can to support it. Vince Cable: I will come on to manufacturing in a Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab) rose— moment. We are trying to recover from a position in which there was active de-industrialisation for the best Mr Watts: rose— part of a decade—[Interruption.] I shall come to the figures shortly. Vince Cable: I will take one more intervention before moving on. Several hon. Members rose— Paul Farrelly: The right hon. Gentleman is a respected Vince Cable: I will take more interventions later. economist and will know full well that an expansion of Let me deal with the issue of growth. The right hon. exports is to be expected following the decline of sterling. Member for Southampton, Itchen has commented, quite That is not a growth strategy; it is a consequence of the reasonably, that the last quarter’s figures and the flash previous economic policy that he used to agree with. estimates of gross domestic product growth were negative. Before he gets too carried away in making accusations Those were not good figures, of course, but let us try to about amnesia, may I ask him whether he recognises put them in the context of what those data tell us, and these words, written in 2009 and reprinted this year: what the survey data tell us, about the UK economy. “I have taken the view that in the current circumstances it is on Private sector business investment, which is at the core balance right to attempt a fiscal stimulus, recognizing, however, of the recovery, is 3.73% up on last year’s performance. the risks. The alternative—prolonged and deepening slump—would The OECD, the International Monetary Fund and the be worse”? 875 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 876 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) Mr Speaker: That is quite long enough. Vince Cable: My hon. Friend is right. It was suggested a few moments ago that the process of manufacturing Vince Cable: There are indeed many wise words in recovery that we are beginning to see was driven entirely that book, which is why it has been reprinted several by exchange rates. That is, of course, a major factor, times—it retains its relevance. and it is something for which neither the last Government nor this one claim credit. Let me move on from the general picture of de-industrialisation to the specifics. Let me also deal Several hon. Members rose— specifically with the Pfizer closure, which is a serious matter and an extremely disappointing development. Vince Cable: I will take interventions later. The implication in the remarks of the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen was that the Government had What I think we can claim credit for is establishing a somehow or other failed to head off a closure, which climate of confidence in which businesses can invest, could have been avoided. Let me therefore talk him and taking concrete action in specific areas— through the sequence of events, which is also important Several hon. Members rose— to many colleagues behind me, and explain what we are doing about the problem. Vince Cable: I will take interventions in a few moments. We were first notified about this at the beginning of I think that we can claim credit for specific actions last week—on 28 January. The chief executive came to that have made a real difference in terms of manufacturing London and briefed the Minister for Universities and skills. Science, who rightly immediately asked what the British Government should do to avert the closure. The answer I believe that the right hon. Member for Southampton, was that this was not a matter for British Government Itchen said that apprenticeships were in decline. It is policy, and that the choice was not made on the basis of worth reading out the latest quarterly figures, because whether Britain was an attractive place to do business. they are directly relevant to the intervention of my right Rather, the company was making global closures, including hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old large closures in Dusseldorf in Germany and Massachusetts Southwark (Simon Hughes) and those of Labour Members. in the United States. The cycle of the company’s patents A year ago there were 63,400 level 2 apprenticeships; was relevant, and it was a purely commercial decision. now there are 76,300. A year ago there were 35,200 advanced What happened with Pfizer is offset by what is happening apprenticeships at level 3; now there are 42,300. The elsewhere in the pharmaceutical industry. Only a few number of higher-level apprenticeships has risen from weeks ago GlaxoSmithKline announced a £500 million 700 to 1,200. That is a direct consequence of our investment, creating 1,000 new jobs directly—and much intervention during the spending review, when we had else happening in the industry is positive. to make tough choices. We chose to concentrate on supporting the apprenticeships that are the backbone of The right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen British industry. asked me what we were doing about the situation. First, I have established a taskforce comprising Kent county James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): council, local interests and the Department for Work The Secretary of State is making a very good point. It is and Pensions working together to look at the local particularly applicable to the economy of the west labour market and what we can do to help. My ministerial midlands and the black country, where manufacturing colleagues are involved in the process. The Minister for still plays a very important role. The creation of a local Universities and Science is working with the Secretary enterprise partnership to focus specifically on manufacturing of State for Health to see how we can relocate scientists skills will directly benefit the local economy. It would be from those research facilities into the rest of the madness to pursue the policies of the previous Government, pharmaceutical industries. We may well establish a model which failed to create the private sector jobs that we based on the relative success so far of Allan Cook’s need in the west midlands. efforts in the defence industry to see how best to pursue the relocation policy. However, the decision was not Vince Cable: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his based on the investment climate in the United Kingdom. support. He makes the point extremely well. Local It was a commercial decision, and we are acting promptly enterprise partnerships will achieve a great deal, at a far in doing whatever we can to help the people who are lower cost than the Labour party’s £21 billion investment caught up in that difficulty. in regional development agencies. They are already beginning to make their mark. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): Many of us who have been in the House for a Several hon. Members rose— while know that this country often suffers as a result of decisions involving local businesses which are made Vince Cable: I will take one intervention, and then elsewhere in Europe—or, as was the case when the Peek move on. Frean factory in my constituency was closed, in Idaho. However, all my experience since May, both in my Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): constituency and around the country, suggests that Steel manufacturers’ confidence would increase if the people are desperate to see manufacturing back on its Secretary of State could demonstrate that he was prepared feet, and desperate for the skills and apprenticeships to invest in steel, which he failed to do in the case of that will allow it to perform. That is the great demand Sheffield Forgemasters, and if he came clean on whether out there in relation to Government economic policy, his party supports the new generation of nuclear power and my right hon. Friend is going in absolutely the right stations that would create so much work for those direction by making it a priority. manufacturers. 877 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 878 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) Vince Cable: As it happens, 10 days ago I talked to Let me now deal with the further education sector, in representatives of British Steel’s successor, Tata Steel which I became engaged, with the Minister for Further in India, about its plans for investment in the United Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning. We began Kingdom. I made absolutely clear that we stood behind visiting further education colleges, many of which were it, and would do all we could to support it. My colleague utterly demoralised and unable to fulfil their function at the Department of Energy and Climate Change has because their capital work had been stopped as a result already made clear that we support investment in nuclear of a process of utter incompetence. They had been power, provided that it is not accompanied by a state authorised to spend nine times the amount that was subsidy. I also met the largest investor in that industry actually available. in order to support his activities. Let us examine the underlying trends, to which the Several hon. Members rose— motion refers. In the last five years of the Labour Government, adult learning—involving people over 19—fell Vince Cable: I will move on now, and take interventions by 1.1 million to 3.5 million. At a time when Government later. money was being thrown at problems, the Government’s Let me deal with the general complaint that the priorities were such that a key area was neglected and Department has made wrong choices by considering declined. We have sought to refocus that energy on some of the decisions that we have had to make since apprenticeships, with the consequences that I have already coming to office. I will start with the universities. The described. Minister for Universities and Science will say a little more about fees policy later. It is an issue that we have Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): May I return debated several times. the Secretary of State to the subject of manufacturing? My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, I vividly recall, within days of beginning my job, Itchen (Mr Denham) raised the issue of Airbus at the having to sign off several key appointments to the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee. There is Student Loans Company, and then having to make a great concern about the fact that key workers who are very quick trip to Glasgow to visit an organisation vital to the future of the business will be prevented from which had been in a state of collapse and which we entering the United Kingdom under tier 2 of the points- had inherited. I remind the right hon. Member for based system. I know that the Secretary of State is Southampton, Itchen—who, I believe, played a part in concerned about that as well, but what is he going to do establishing that organisation; the Public Accounts about it? Committee is currently reviewing the episode—that during a period at the beginning of the last academic year for Vince Cable: The right hon. Member for Southampton, which the last Government were responsible, when students Itchen made a wholly wrong assertion. The system of were desperately telephoning the company about their immigration workers for skilled workers was substantially finances, 87% of calls were unanswered. Moreover, only modified to remove intra-company transfers from 46% of claims were processed. As a result of the decision immigration control. If there are particular cases involving to firm up the organisation, the percentage rose to particular companies, I shall be happy to pursue them. 69% in the current academic year. That is still too low, As it happens, I met Mr Gallois yesterday and the issue but an organisation that was wholly dysfunctional under was not raised, but I will happily pursue any specific cases. the last Government is beginning to be turned round. Let me now deal with another issue. A few moments Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): The Secretary ago, I received a challenge. Why, I was asked, did we not of State prays in aid the example of the Student Loans move away from some of the messes that we had inherited, Company. He will be aware that an independent review and concentrate on the issues relevant to business growth? by Sir Deian Hopkin found the board and the chair Let me start with an issue that is absolutely critical but culpable, which is why they are no longer in the organisation. does not merit even a word in the motion—regulation. We inherited a system in which five new regulations Vince Cable: I seem to remember that an independent were introduced every day, at a cost to the business report established very firmly that responsibility lay sector that was independently assessed at £80 billion— with Ministers. about 5% of GDP.A few days ago the Minister of State, Mr Denham: I am grateful to the Secretary of State Cabinet Office discovered a book, only one copy of for giving way, because he referred to me personally in which is in circulation, of all the regulations that had this connection. I think that he is missing the point. been accumulated. Some 22,800 were bearing on businesses Part of the business of being a Minister, or a Secretary and adding enormously to their costs— of State, is sorting out problems that arise—[Interruption.] Let me tell Members that things will go wrong for this Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab) rose— Government, as they occasionally went wrong for our Government. It is part of a Secretary of State’s job to Vince Cable: I shall finish this point and then give sort those things out, but this Secretary of State is using way. What we have done is, first, establish a process to that as an excuse for having done nothing about the stop the accumulation of regulation. Last week, with really big challenges involved in promoting growth. It is the support of the Under-Secretary of State for Business, no good his telling the House, “We couldn’t do anything Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for about growth because I was sorting out the Student Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), I started attacking Loans Company.” That is a ridiculous argument. an issue that is a particular concern to small business: the problem of tribunals. I believe that there are almost Vince Cable: I am glad to hear it acknowledged that 250,000 such cases a year, many of which are frivolous. we began by having to sort out a mess. That is a good They are being brought by people who are not required starting point for discussion. to pay any fee in order to be heard before the tribunal. 879 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 880 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) [Vince Cable] Richard Burden: A little earlier, the Secretary of State answered a question about the west midlands, so may I We are trying to establish, following a consultation, a tell him what is worrying people and businesses there? level playing field to help small business deal with the On 28 October he made a statement on local growth, problems established by the tribunal system. In future and his answer to everything in terms of industrial and all cases will go through a mediation process before they other assistance was, “There will be a regional growth get into the costly and disruptive process of a tribunal. fund.” That fund is oversubscribed and the rules have It is worth remembering that the previous Government been changed at the last minute—although the Government tried twice to reform this process, but backed off on have denied that they have done that. In Birmingham both occasions, under pressure from the people who and the west midlands, the vital infrastructure projects pay their bills. for Birmingham airport and the regeneration of Longbridge look like being left high and dry. In practical terms, Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): The Secretary what confidence can he give to people in the west of State is talking about regulation, but he began his midlands that he will stand by them on such things? speech by giving us a history lesson on the financial services sector crash. So will he take this opportunity to Vince Cable: Rather than prejudge what the first explain what he would have done to regulate that sector tranche of the regional growth fund will be, let us just further and prevent the global financial crash? wait for the outcome and decide which projects will proceed on the basis of the independent evaluation that Vince Cable: It is a pity that the hon. Lady was not they have had. here to hear my speeches on this subject for the five Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op) years running up to the crisis, but I shall make two rose— simple points now. The first is that when the financial crisis occurred, I thought and said openly, as I shall Vince Cable: I have taken a large number of interventions. repeat now, that the interventions made at that time by I will take one more, from the Chair of the Select the then Chancellor were exactly right and deserved Committee, and then move on. support. What the then Government did not do—this is what we are doing through the Banking Commission—is Mr Bailey: The Secretary of State mentioned the look at the fundamental issues of overly large banks, manufacturing advisory service, and I welcome his comment concentrations of retail and investment banking, and that he is going to build on it. However, I had a meeting how to deal with the very complex problems of those with a representative of that service who seemed very two things being locked in the same institution. We are unsure what its future would be in the context of the dealing with the fundamental issues behind the banking new Government policy. Will he take the opportunity to crash, rather than the superficial aspects of it. give reassurance to members of that service? Vince Cable: I can certainly reassure the hon. Gentleman Mr Watts: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that that organisation has a good record and a good finally giving way. He seems keen on encouraging future. If he wants to talk through the details, I am sure manufacturing investment, so may I suggest that he that the Minister of State, Department for Business, restore the grants for business, which actually brought Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for in £3.9 billion of investment and created 70,000 jobs, Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk) will engage with him before he scrapped them? on that subject. I was reviewing some of the areas where the Government Vince Cable: No doubt the hon. Gentleman will tell inherited major problems and are now trying to deal us where that fits on the shopping list. On industrial with them—university administration, further education support, I shall simply say that where the previous colleges, apprenticeships and regulations—but let me Government promoted good schemes, such as the mention another, which does not even figure in the manufacturing advisory service, we are building on motion: the appalling history of the Royal Mail and the them, because we are looking at them on their merits, Post Office. One of the things that we have done, which not doctrinally. However, where schemes were failing the previous Government were not able to do, is pass and were not cost-efficient, we have reduced them and through the first stage of parliamentary scrutiny of a scrapped them. process that will eventually get those organisations on a sound footing. Julian Smith: Small businesses across Britain were delighted to hear last week’s announcement by the Let us remind Labour Members what we inherited: a Government on tribunals. May I encourage the Secretary collapsing post office network, which had declined from of State and his excellent employment Minister, the 19,400 post offices to 12,000, mostly as a result of a Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and forced planned closure programme; and a Royal Mail Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and that had a negative cash flow in the last financial year of Surbiton (Mr Davey), to go further and faster on freeing £520 million, an operating loss of £320 million and a things up, and freeing small business from Labour’s pension deficit of almost £10 billion. We are taking the legacy of red tape? necessary action to solve those problems, whereas the previous Government had an opportunity to do so but walked away from them. Vince Cable: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s encouragement, and the Government intend to do exactly Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP) rose— what he suggests. Shortly, we will take a forward look at the pipeline of regulation, and how we plan to reduce Vince Cable: I am not taking any more interventions, regulation and make it proportionate. because I have been very generous. 881 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 882 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) I wish to conclude by discussing some of the other evaluation of what is happening there. One development issues that the Government now have to deal with. in that area is that a bank task force has been established, These are major issues that we have inherited and where which will have a proper system of investigating complaints major policy is required in order to strengthen growth. when banks behave unreasonably. I am very happy to The first issue is trade. That is fundamental to recovery, take her through that, to meet her and to try to expedite yet does not even merit a word in the Opposition’s long that particular business transaction. motion. Do they not understand its importance? In the next few days a trade White Paper will: set out a new Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): I approach to the Export Credits Guarantee Department, congratulate my right hon. Friend on what he is doing a largely moribund organisation to which we are giving to increase trade in this country, because the one way a new suite of products; refocus the activities of UK that we can help small businesses to grow is through Trade & Investment; and stress the importance that we trade. Will he commit to providing more help for small attach—I am personally involved in this—to trade and medium-sized businesses to trade not only with liberalisation within the single market, in bilateral north America and Europe but in the more difficult agreements with India, Brazil and the European Union, markets of Asia? and through multilateral trade. One of the things that we do, and I do—the Prime Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman is exactly right that Minister has given his personal leadership on this—is that is what we are doing, and that is what the trade ensure that Ministers spend a lot of their time attracting White Paper will emphasise when we talk about the inward investment and opening up the big emerging future tasking of UKTI. markets that will be crucial to our growth. The right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen asked what I had been doing in the past few weeks and months. Most Mr Lammy: Will the Secretary of State give way on recently I have been to India twice; I have also visited that point? China, Brazil and Russia trying to open up markets and attract inward investment that will provide the growth Vince Cable: I have taken a lot of interventions, and I and the jobs of the future, many of which are now propose to conclude now. materialising. There are many areas in which we have improved, The second issue covers finance and the banks, which and are improving, policy, but our overriding concern, have been referred to on several occasions. The only over which the right hon. Member for Southampton, reference to it in the motion is a factually incorrect one Itchen and his colleagues seem to have a serious amnesia to tax revenue. problem, is sorting out the underlying problem of the public finances. That process will continue for several Priti Patel (Witham) (Con) rose— years. It is worth quoting from an OECD peer group of Vince Cable: I shall give way in a moment. The government that has been looking at our progress. Last factually incorrect reference is to tax revenue, because week the OECD’s secretary-general said: in fact the banking levy will result in the Government “dealing with the deficit is the best way to prepare the ground for raising three to four times as much tax revenue from the growth in the future. In fact, if you don’t deal with the deficit you banks as was going to be raised by the one-off profits can be assured that there will not be growth because confidence levy last year, and that is excluding the effects of getting will not recover.” the major banks to comply with anti-avoidance procedures; That has been the central preoccupation of Government the previous Government completely ignored that. There policy. It is painful and difficult but we are going to is an issue to address—I am sure that my hon. Friend persist with it, and for that reason we will succeed in the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) is intervening to restoring stable and balanced growth to the British tell me about it—concerning medium-sized and small economy. companies that cannot attract bank lending. That serious problem is continuing because of the massive deleveraging Several hon. Members rose— taking place in the banking system. We have extended the system of bank guarantees. We now have a fund of Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. This is £2 billion, and that process will continue. The Chancellor a popular debate and a six-minute limit has been introduced and I are personally negotiating with the banks to on all Back Benchers’ speeches, with the usual injury ensure that we deliver a substantially improved flow of time for two interventions. funding to viable British companies.

Priti Patel: I have previously raised with the Secretary 1.43 pm of State the horrendous time that my constituent, the chocolate maker Amelia Rope, has had in getting finance Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): for her business so that she can make even more of her Let me start by saying that, on a personal level, I know outstanding chocolate bars. Will the Secretary of State from my discussions with Ministers that they are personally comment further on what he is doing to get more committed to the growth agenda. My reason for speaking finance to businesses such as hers so that they can thrive in this debate is that I feel that they have failed to get and prosper and start doing more trade internationally? their personal priorities and commitment translated across the rest of Government policy.Current Government Vince Cable: I know of the hon. Lady’s frustration policy on the economy and growth is politically driven regarding this particular company and the banks, and and fundamentally economically flawed. Above all—even I, or the relevant Minister of State, will be happy to if one does not accept those first two premises—it is meet her and the banks if that will help to get a proper totally incoherent in its application. 883 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 884 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) [Mr Adrian Bailey] enterprise partnerships. By abolishing RDAs, the Government stripped away a core of local business The Secretary of State spoke at length about the support and they put in its place LEPs, which may or comments of the former director general of the CBI, may not be successful, but which have not delivered a Richard Lambert, but he failed to mention Mr Lambert’s single job so far. subsequent comments: Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I am grateful to the Chairman “But my argument this morning is that the Government has not been nearly so consistent and focussed when it comes to of the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and policies that support growth. It’s failed so far to articulate in big Skills for giving way. I have listened to the spokesman picture terms its vision of what the UK economy might become for the Opposition and to the hon. Gentleman, but under its stewardship.” apart from one costed programme to accelerate broadband He went on—this the crux of the matter: I have not heard a single policy from Her Majesty’s Opposition. Is it too much to expect the Chairman of “And it’s taken a series of policy initiatives for political reasons, apparently careless of the damage that they might do to business the Select Committee, who should know about these and to job creation.” things, to announce some positive policies? We must emphasise the importance of job creation Mr Bailey: We would have sustained the level of and growth in dealing with the deficit. Mr Lambert support at local level that would have allowed manufacturers pointed out in the same speech that the deficit was to benefit from the sort of programmes that were being partly a result of public spending last year being up by developed to get us out of recession. However, the hon. 3% from 2008, but was, above all, because tax receipts Gentleman must forgive me if I concentrate on the issue were down by 13%. One would reasonably expect, in a at stake, which is the performance of BIS in promoting policy designed to eliminate the deficit, that there would growth. be a balance of measures designed to cut public spending On LEPs, I am second to none in my praise for my and get economic growth, but what we have had are local Black Country chamber of commerce and those measures designed simply to cut public spending and who are committed to making it work. I shall do not to get economic growth. everything I can to support the LEP, but I know that there are serious reservations about the lack of funding Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con): The hon. it has for submitting applications and about the delay Gentleman says that our policies are not designed to that occurred when its original application to become a promote economic growth, but what about our tax LEP was turned down. policy, which will make us one of the lowest-taxed What, above all, is very worrying as regards the countries in the G7? Will that not generate economic potential for LEPs is the fact that the planning proposals growth? in the Localism Bill do not include LEPs having any role whatever in the process. How the Government can Mr Bailey: I would love to talk about tax policy such create a local organisation with a brief to drive growth as the VAT rise that is cutting demand, particularly in but not include it in the local planning plans for a local the construction industry, in which 7,500 people are community defies all credibility and belief. Without the going to be made unemployed as a number of businesses support of local planning authorities, it will be difficult go down. I could go on for a very long time about the for local businesses to push for growth. Government’s tax policy. Corporation tax cuts will benefit Immigration has already been mentioned. The revelations the rich—[HON.MEMBERS: “Oh, come on!”] They will that we heard yesterday in the Business, Innovation and benefit the banking community and those within it, but Skills Committee on the impact of the Government’s I want to see an increase in capital allowances, which is cap on recruiting people for vital, iconic businesses that what the manufacturing sector wants to enable investment have demonstrated time and again their ability to deliver to take place. However, I shall move on. jobs and growth are a real worry. Some of us thought Let us consider the financial implications of economic that the Secretary of State had had some success in that growth for tax receipts. A 1% rise in gross domestic regard, but it looks as though the headline announcements product brings in £7.7 billion in tax receipts. Over the are not being reflected by the attitudes of the Departments lifetime of a Government, a 1% increase in GDP growth involved. That is, in itself, a reflection on this particular would bring in something like £37.5 billion—nearly half Department’s ability to get what it needs from other the deficit that the Chancellor says we need to cut over Departments in delivering on an agenda that is essential this period. It is therefore the responsibility of BIS to for the Government and the economy. push and push for Government priorities to ensure that BIS should be taking a lead role and ensuring that the elimination of that deficit is effected largely through there is a growth impact test on the actions taken by economic growth, but it has failed to do that. I think other Departments. That is not so. This is why, under a that was acknowledged in Mr Lambert’s comments. Labour Government, we were growing ourselves out of— The growth White Paper has been abandoned because there was not enough in it—hardly sterling support for Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I call industry and the private sector. Some of the policies we Simon Kirby. are talking about do not involve any expenditure to implement but are about the priorities of other Departments 1.51 pm and how they impact on growth. One would reasonably Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): The right expect BIS to demonstrate to other Departments how hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) they are damaging growth. Localism is one example. is absolutely right when he says that the Government We have heard a lot about the abolition of regional must take decisive action—decisive action to address development agencies and their replacement with local the staggering deficit and huge public debt inherited 885 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 886 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) from the Labour party; decisive action as a direct result Let me tell the House something about my constituency of the previous Government spending more than they of Brighton, Kemptown—somewhere that the Centre raised in taxation; and decisive action because the Labour for Cities has once again singled out as performing party burdened generations to come with the liabilities strongly post-recession: incurred for the current generation. That decisive action “Cities with strong private sector economies and limited public will help to put in place the right macro-economic spending cuts, such as Brighton, will be well placed to drive the conditions for recovery. UK’s economic recovery.” Mel Stride: Does my hon. Friend agree that only the Just this week, recruitment specialists are reporting a prompt action that the Government took in the emergency surge in vacancies in Brighton and Hove, with firms Budget shortly after the election ensured that we stabilised returning to pre-recession staff levels. Amex announced the markets, which in turn kept interest rates low, which last week that it is looking to expand still further in in turn kept sterling low and encouraged manufacturing Brighton by relocating many hundreds of well paid and exports? permanent jobs from Madrid. Developers are still looking to invest in Brighton and Simon Kirby: My hon. Friend is, as usual, correct. We Hove, and Brighton and Hove, with its Conservative-run inherited a very big mess indeed. council and its three new non-Labour MPs, is a place to Coalition Ministers are driving forward a programme do business. No wonder the right hon. Member for with one purpose—creating jobs. There is talk about Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), the Leader of the what is happening. A raft of measures have been introduced, Opposition, came down recently to see how it is done. and those are designed to support economic recovery, Contrast that with the previous Government—the Labour boost business and help the private sector to create jobs. party, which told us, “There is no money left.” We see in Corporation tax is falling for both small and large the new Government decisive action, both locally and firms. The previous Government’s planned increase in nationally. employer national insurance contributions has been stopped. National insurance contribution discounts are Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): When being offered to encourage new start-ups to take on Labour left office, growth was picking up, unemployment employees. Small-business rate relief has been doubled was falling, inflation was low and the deficit came in for a year, and the Government are getting to grips with more than £20 billion lower than forecast. Under this the red tape that strangles so many of our small firms. Government, inflation is rising, growth has stalled and Let me be clear on this point— unemployment is rising. They really are facts, so will the hon. Gentleman accept them? Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Simon Kirby: No, I will not accept those facts. I am Simon Kirby: I will not. often struck, looking at those on the Opposition Benches, Business needs to be liberated, not submerged in by how few people have been in business, how few have legislation, not taxed out of existence, not immobilised employed people and how few have filled in a VAT by red tape. We must release the shackles and set return. I have employed more people than could fit in business free. this Chamber, and I speak from some experience. Brand UK is strong, and it is important that we talk Britain up, not down. We must dispel any perception Mel Stride: On the point made by the hon. Member that the UK is a burdensome place to do business. We for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner), does my need to be aware of the huge competition from Asia. hon. Friend agree that it is typical of the previous The Prime Minister, the Foreign Office, the Treasury Government that they left office with unemployment and BIS have all given the highest priority to the business higher than when they came to office—the case with and skills agenda. every single Labour Government in history? The coalition Government are ensuring that entrepreneurs and business owners are able to access Simon Kirby: I agree with my hon. Friend. One of the the information and advice that they need. The Business sad things about unemployment is the youth unemployment Department is undertaking a number of reforms to element, which is particularly prevalent in my constituency. Government-funded business support. The Work It is, frankly, a disgrace. programme will provide personalised support for those with the greatest barriers to employment. The new Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the hon. enterprise allowance will help people to make the jump Gentleman give way? from unemployment to self-employment. Investment will ensure that workers have the skills that they need in Simon Kirby: I will not, because I do not have much a modern labour market. Young unemployed people time left. will get much more help to access extended work experience There is much more to do, and the times we live in are opportunities. very difficult, but, taken together, the Government’s Mr Gyimah: Does my hon. Friend agree that our measures will create the right conditions for business to skills strategy goes further than the previous Government’s thrive, compete and create sustainable economic growth in enabling people who want to reskill to gain funding and employment. The coalition Government are doing to do part-time courses, and therefore get back into the a good job, getting us out of the mess left by the workplace and get jobs? previous Labour Government—decisive action by a decisive Government. I, for one, applaud the progress Simon Kirby: I agree. Our policy is totally in keeping made by the Government and wholeheartedly disagree with the 21st century we all live in. with this very mean and inconsiderate motion. 887 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 888 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) 1.59 pm Alison McGovern: As my right hon. Friend knows, Vauxhall Motors is close to the southern end of my Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): constituency. Will he comment on the previous We should begin the debate by considering, as the Government’s approach in setting the ground work for motion asks us to do, the role of the Department for electric vehicles and ensuring that high-tech manufacturing, Business, Innovation and Skills. It has in recent years which is employing people in my constituency, is part of become a major spending Department, with the stewardship this country’s future and not part of our past? of universities and further education colleges. It is different from other Departments in that, uniquely, it stands on Mr McFadden: My hon. Friend is right. The sad fact the boundary of the public and private sectors. Its job is is that whereas we wanted to support General Motors to sell Britain abroad as a great location for doing in its plans for restructuring in Europe, by the time the business, and to help UK businesses to penetrate foreign current Government got round to making a decision on markets. It is also, of course, the key location for that, Vauxhall had decided to go away and sort out its business and employees to come to Government with own financing. business-related issues. It is, as the Secretary of State has Let me turn to some of the issues that have arisen described, the Department for growth—or it should be. since the election. We could trade quotes from Sir Richard How Government achieve that growth—the role of Lambert all day, so let us be candid about what he said Government in helping to foster growth—is what divides last week. He said that he agreed with the Government the House. There are those on the Government Benches, on the deficit reduction strategy, but he thought that including the Secretary of State, who is no longer in his there was no wider vision for the economy and there place, who previously called for the Department to be was a danger that the Department was turning into a abolished, and who thought that there was no role for “talking shop”. That is a fair summary of Sir Richard Government to play in fostering growth, apart from Lambert’s speech. getting out of the way. That is not our view; we believe that there is an important and active role in fostering Jim Shannon: Will the right hon. Gentleman give growth. way? I take issue with one of the arguments that the Mr McFadden: I will not give way because I want to Secretary of State has deployed time after time since the make progress. election—that the actions taken by the present Government would have been taken by Labour because we were What business wants is for the Department to be committed to the same level of cuts. It is not true. The winning battles in Whitehall. That, sadly, has not been Government have launched a programme of cuts which happening. The Department and the Government talk is tens of billions of pounds more than anything that about rebalancing the economy. By that we mean was being planned by the Labour Government, and he rebalancing away from an excessive dependence on cannot continue to rest on that argument. financial services and from excessive dependence on certain parts of the country.How, then, can the Government justify in their first Budget cutting some £2.8 billion in Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): I am investment allowances from manufacturing industry? grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. He The corporation tax cut, which has been mentioned, is always very kind in these matters. If he knew the adds up to a benefit of £2.7 billion. In other words, plans of the previous Government, having been a member what has happened is that manufacturing industry is of the previous Government, will he explain them to us paying for a tax cut for the rest of the economy. in order that we can understand how the deficit would have been met? The Secretary of State referred to the decline in manufacturing as a proportion of output and of employment. What he did not mention was the fact that Mr McFadden: If the hon. Gentleman casts his mind we were going through the biggest wave of globalisation back a little more than a year to the pre-Budget report, in world economic history. He takes an entirely national he will find that cuts in spending were set out by the view, when there was profound change going on in Department while I was a Minister there. He simply constituencies such as mine and other black country needs to read the pre-Budget report. constituencies in manufacturing during that period. I admit that over time during the Labour Government The programme of grants for business investment our view on the Department’s role shifted. In the early has been responsible in the past six years for some days we were, perhaps, too reluctant to intervene in £400 million of grants to small and medium-sized mostly markets, but we got to the point where we were playing manufacturing businesses. Fewer than one in five of the a much more active role and co-ordinating activity grants is more than £1 million. Those grants have across Whitehall on key industrial and employment supported some 1,800 projects, secured almost £4 billion opportunities. in investment, and helped to secure almost 80,000 jobs. For example, with the Department of Energy and How on earth does abolishing that programme fit in Climate Change, we produced the low carbon industrial with rhetoric about trying to rebalance the economy? strategy to achieve the most for UK industry out of the Further, those grants are specifically geared to the shift to low carbon power generation. On transport, we assisted areas—areas that need help most, such as my worked with the Department for Transport on an ultra- own in the west midlands. We met people from the low-carbon vehicle strategy.In other words, the Department Black Country local enterprise partnership a few days for Business, Innovation and Skills played a leading and ago. I pay tribute to the business people in that area co-ordinating role to take advantage of the industrial who have worked so hard to pull together the Black and employment opportunities of the future. That is Country LEP. I reflect a fear and a concern, which I what we were doing to try to foster growth and employment. suspect are shared elsewhere. Despite the commitment 889 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 890 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) of the business people, will they get the support that Ian Murray: The hon. Lady, like many of her coalition they need from the regional growth fund? That fund is colleagues, has mentioned the cut in corporation tax as grossly oversubscribed. If business has put in the effort a massive driver of economic growth. Does she agree but Government do not back those bids and projects, that corporation tax is paid only on profits and that business will rightly feel let down, and my constituents many small businesses, particularly those in the service will rightly feel let down by the prospectus that has been and tourism sector in my constituency that write to me, offered. are more concerned about their profits because they On trade and immigration, the Minister for Universities have either no customers or fewer customers as a result and Science is in his place. How does he feel that the of the massive VAT hike? soft power that is gained from the UK as a wonderful Lorely Burt: The Government have been particularly location to study will be affected by the new proposals generous to small businesses for the coming year. He is on restricting the right to work of people who come right that no one wanted to increase VAT, but unfortunately here to study? How does that help us to sell Britain the alternatives were even less palatable. abroad as an attractive location for investment? The truth is that business is concerned about the Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Will the hon. Lady difference between commentary and delivery that we give way? see in the current Department. That is the difference between opposition and government. The Secretary of Lorely Burt: In a moment. State, having lost the battles over LEPs, where the There is also the national insurance contributions Department for Communities and Local Government holiday for the first 10 employees in the first year of appears to be running the show, and over immigration business for new companies outside London and the policy, has been left to bet the farm on the banking south-east. The regional growth fund has been much commission. It is not even fully within his control. maligned today, but I think it will play an important Business will want to see less commentary and more part in stimulating growth. delivery in future. Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): When providing help to business, one of the most important 2.8 pm things is to check that it is administered correctly. One need only look at the Export Credits Guarantee Department Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): The thrust of the Opposition to see the symptoms of the previous Government’s motion is that the coalition failed to deliver its promise failures: 90% has gone on aerospace help, which is on growth and jobs. Let us consider the facts. We are wonderful for that industry, but the 10% for other seeking to rebalance an economy which, under Labour, industries has dropped by 40%. Such funding is obviously became over-dependent on the financial sector. For a not fit for purpose, compared with other countries long time I have called for more focus on encouraging where it is going up. That is a perfect example of the manufacturing in the UK. Last year, sadly, we dropped previous Government’s failures of administration. to seventh in the global league in manufacturing, but now we have the beginnings of a different story. Lorely Burt: I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman. In January this year, manufacturing hit a record high. The big companies that shout the loudest often benefit The purchasing managers index recorded: disproportionately from Government funding. On that “Rates of expansion in UK manufacturing new orders and point, I note that the Government have an aspiration to employment accelerated to reach levels without precedent in the procure 25% from small businesses. With regard to nineteen-year survey history”. exports, it is important that small businesses receive Manufacturing employment rose for the 10th successive their fair dues. I also welcome the technology and month in January.How have we as a coalition Government innovation centres, which will bridge the gap between contributed to this encouraging expansion? good ideas and their implementation and the readiness to bring them to market. I often say that the role of Government is not to interfere, but to create a fair playing field and then get Angela Smith: Will the hon. Lady give way? off the pitch. Government should create an atmosphere in which businesses can survive and grow, and the Lorely Burt: I am sorry, but I have given way twice coalition is doing that. The effect of the moves that we already and that is it. have made to reduce regulation is not yet being felt. The All those measures are yet to come into effect, so how Secretary of State has announced new rules that will be can we claim that the improving business situation is coming in to create fairness in employment law so that due to us? We have created a climate of confidence in employers and employees can navigate through disputes this country. We have put in some pretty harsh measures more easily, and tax rules are being simplified. to tackle the deficit. Not a single Liberal Democrat We can restore economic stability in this country only colleague has taken a moment of pleasure in that, but by bringing the deficit under control, but we need to we joined the coalition and signed up to the agreement ensure that business continues to invest. That is why the because we felt that it was necessary to restore confidence, Government have set out plans to promote growth by and it did. Following the June Budget, we saw our triple reducing corporation tax to the lowest level in the G7. A credit rating restored. The credit rating agencies Many welcome measures are being introduced, and I backed our deficit plan, and so did the International particularly welcome the new enterprise allowance that Monetary Fund, the OECD, the CBI, the European will allow unemployed people to get off the dole and Commission, the World Bank, the Governor of the realise their often long-held dreams of starting up their Bank of England and one Mr Tony Blair. Other countries, own business. before and after the Budget, have faced financial meltdown, 891 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 892 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) [Lorely Burt] Benches will no doubt state that manufacturing growth in general has increased amidst a sea of GDP decline, and if we had not done that, we would be paying the but such statements will not be followed with the caveat crippling interest rates that people in Ireland are now that the majority of that growth is in inventory spending, paying. meaning the restocking of raw materials for production. It is a restocking at a time when raw material and Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Fiction. commodity prices are at a real high, inflating the costs Lorely Burt: We are hearing a lot of denial from those per measure of materials purchased. I fear that that will on the Opposition Front Bench. Had we not taken that be demonstrated in the second and third quarters of action, we would be facing greater wage cuts than we this year as domestic demand unfortunately wanes, are already suffering and more job losses. Not everything especially if domestic interest rates are raised. That is that John Cridland, the director-general of the CBI, has combined with the VAT increase, the increased national said about the coalition Government has been insurance contributions, wage cuts, fuel costs and the complimentary, but this week he said that fact that although the world function is based on the “the coalition government has a lot of credit in the bank with the retail prices index, the Government function is based on British business community for the way it’s tackled the deficit. the consumer prices index. We are looking for a domestic That was task number one and it needs driving through and it multiplier here. mustn’t allow itself to be knocked off course”. Any policy that is reliant on export-led growth ignores The Secretary of State has referred to the £4 billion reality as the EU’s internal problems continue and cut in the Department’s budget. Labour has opposed Asian markets become increasingly more protectionist this, but it has failed to say even once where it would and insular in their dissemination of vital raw materials. have cut to achieve their stated £44 billion worth of NEPIC’s vision in its industrial plan is to seek out other cuts. BIS was an unprotected Department under its clusters like itself and send its industrialists there to win plans. It criticises us for our plan for business, but it the crucial research and development contracts that will does not have a plan. It should criticise after it has hugely benefit our economy. Getting £l billion in six produced an alternative, because what it did for the past years from £3 million is good business in anyone’s book. 13 years certainly did not work. Under Labour, Britain It is a clear example of how public investment can and fell from seventh to 13th in the World Economic Forum’s does attract private investment, both domestic and from global competitiveness league. Tax competitiveness also abroad. fell: in 1997, the UK had the 11th lowest corporate tax As well as the scrapping of One North East, the body rate in the world; but in 2009 it was the 23rd lowest. The that helped set up and support NEPIC, we have now British Chambers of Commerce has claimed that Labour seen the abrupt end to the emergency package devised created £83 billion of red tape that was simply choking for Teesside in the wake of steel job losses. It targeted off businesses’ ability to grow. jobs growth in the chemicals sector as an alternative to I know that things are choppy, and we have heard steel jobs. That scheme has been axed, even though it is about the lack of growth in the past month, but I would still allocating work and has £18 million in uncommitted like to finish on a positive note, because it is not just funds that could have been used to support and enhance about manufacturing. The Reed job index, which is run the objectives of NEPIC member companies. by the country’s largest recruitment website, has shown that employers seem to be in job creation mode. I am Now we hear that a long-standing and successful not pretending that we are out of the woods yet, but job-creation fund, which over the past decade has helped things are certainly improving under this Government. to create many hundreds of thousands of jobs in areas such as the north-east, is to be axed by stealth. That 2.17 pm fund, the grants for business investment scheme, has been— Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East under its own name of regional selective assistance— Cleveland) (Lab): I am sure that the Minister is aware of responsible in the north-east for pumping £112 million the great success story of the North East of England into poorer parts of the region and for helping to create Process Industry Cluster: it made £1 billion, gross value 25,000 jobs. added, in six years with just £3 million of public support. It was set up by One North East, the local regional Jim Shannon: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that development agency, and has an ongoing portfolio of we need to foster opportunities for young people, especially 62 projects worth £8 million. One particular project, the when unemployment among young people has reached Tenergis project, which is worth $5 billion, could rejuvenate 951,000, the highest it has ever been? One in four people the local economy and, in turn, attract further world-scale between 16 and 25 years old are out of work, and there investment. is a need to create opportunity for young people. Chemicals contribute to more than 30% of the nation’s industrial economy, and the sector attracts some of the Tom Blenkinsop: I wholeheartedly agree. Indeed, the chemical and process industry’s world leaders. Teesside’s grants for business investment scheme helped deal with process industry contributes about £10 billion to the that problem. north-east’s economy—almost a third of regional GDP— In various forms and under successive Governments, but has seen a series of job cuts and plant closure the scheme has been in place since the late 1960s. It announcements in recent months, despite having grown survived the Heath years, the 1970s Labour Governments in the past five years. and even the Thatcher and Major years and the most What has that sector seen from the Department since recent round of Labour Government. Despite differences May? The Government have put much emphasis on on economic policy, all those Administrations recognised export-led growth—pretty much a statement of the the value of regional selective assistance. It was a genuine bleeding obvious. A friendly voice from the Government central-local partnership, handled by the Department 893 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 894 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) for Trade and Industry and then by Department for industrial aid package. Standing idly by? No, I could Business, Innovation and Skills’ offices in London, but not accuse him of that. Turning his back on Teesside? its decisions were guided by a regional evaluation board Yes, I could certainly say that. It was again evident made up of regional businessmen and women. A measure when he was dictated to by his colleagues in DCLG, the of its success was its crucial role in bringing Nissan to Treasury and the Departments for Energy and Climate the north-east in the 1970s. More recently, it helped Change and for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Teesside to secure jobs in the offshore engineering sector The Secretary of State’s colleagues at DECC refer to and underpinned the decision to rebuild the SABIC high-energy manufacturing as sunset industries. Why Wilton site catalytic kraken, currently the single-most on earth is he allowing a rammed-through consultation important plant on the Wilton site. on carbon price support and energy market reform with What is worse, and what puts us at even more of a no impact assessment on energy-intensive industry in disadvantage, is that the scheme will close only in England; either case? Why does the consultation have a short Scotland and Wales will keep it and be able therefore to time scale? He says he wants to take away regulation. compete directly with the north-east for a position of That is utter nonsense: he is allowing far more complex advantage. It is tragic that the scheme will go, because it and damaging regulation through that programme; and will only put more pressure on the hopelessly oversubscribed he is attacking workers, particularly those in the steel and underfunded regional growth fund, which seems to industry, who kept their patience over two and a half be the Government’s sole contribution to regional economic years when they had more than a few good reasons to growth. The RGF, which has about £300 million to take industrial action. I know, because I led them allocate, has already had bids from throughout the alongside colleagues, but we restrained ourselves to region, from Berwick in the north to Boulby in the ensure that we had an industry in Teesside and an south, topping £3 billion. industry for this country. The Government cannot keep relying on a weak 2.24 pm pound or ignore industry’s need for direct investment in research and development and for partnership with Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): In them. I asked the Secretary of State where his influence America the official unemployment rate is 9.5%; unofficially, was when the feted local enterprise partnerships are in it is 13%. Americans face the worst fiscal deficit since the Localism Bill. Why has he handed the European the slump of the 1930s, and, despite the huge fiscal regional development fund over to the Secretary of stimulus package introduced by President Obama, the State for Communities and Local Government? US economy is not producing enough jobs to reduce Does the Business Secretary not acknowledge that those rates of unemployment, let alone to create enough the Office for Budget Responsibility told him explicitly jobs for new entrants to the job market. that unemployment would increase as a result of his Unfortunately, our economy faces similar conditions, policies? Only 3% of people who have achieved work and, as I said in my speech during the Budget debate on since the recession have gained full-time work. Could he 23 June last year, it is essential that as the public sector not have reformed RDAs rather than destroy them, or contracts, everything is done to encourage the private at least asked industrialists in the north-east what they sector to grow as fast as possible in order to take up the thought? Does he not find it bizarre that more money necessary slack and to create desperately needed jobs, will be spent on post offices than on the entire English particularly among the young. At this time, small and RGF? Why is he allowing long-term timber deals between medium-sized enterprises collectively account for 99.9% of biomass generation plants and the Forestry Commission all enterprises, 59.8% of private sector employment and to be undermined by Ministers in the Department for 49% of private sector turnover. It is clear that our Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who want to sell economic recovery will be fuelled by those firms, to off cash-crop forests? which the Government should provide all possible help. The Government have taken a number of steps to help The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills in doing so. They have reduced corporation tax, both and its Secretary of State are summed up by his magical large and small; increased the threshold at which employers mystery tour last year of the beam mill at Tata’s Redcar begin paying national insurance contributions; they plant, which is part of the long products division, not of are consulting on reforming employment tribunals; Teesside Cast Products, the actual plant in question. and there is a welcome and significant increase in His party and his Government promised that they apprenticeships. would not stand by while steel jobs were lost. In fact, they did more than that. At Forgemasters in Sheffield, a There are significant problems out there, however. site where I was the union official, Labour put pen to The banks are lending to certain favoured sectors, and paper when money was requested to help industry. The even in other sectors their arrangement fees have increased Secretary of State’s Government ripped it up. hugely over the past year or so, thereby increasing borrowing costs. The introduction of regulation on When my right hon. Friend the Member for flexible working and paternity leave, although desirable Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), the Business in themselves, could have serious negative implications Minister in the previous Labour Government, contacted for small businesses, which can ill afford to lose a the former chief executive officer of Corus Europe, member of staff for a considerable time. It is vital that Kirby Adams, a personal friend of the Prime Minister the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and much mentioned in the leaders’ television debates, wins those arguments with other Departments, and that he literally put the phone down on a Labour Minister business policy is ruthlessly put first. offering help. The Secretary of State has metaphorically put the Julian Smith: Does my hon. Friend agree that on phone down on Teesside’s manufacturing, cutting almost family-friendly policies, which are vital for supporting one third of the funds set aside for the Tees valley the improvement of children in our country, small 895 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 896 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) [Julian Smith] Exports will be similarly vital to a growing economy. Recent estimates for the period 1996 to 2004 suggest businesses with very few employees need to be given that firms that are new to exporting experience, on special attention? They are special cases, and we need to average, a 34% increase in productivity in the year of look after their needs as much as possible. entry, whereas companies that stopped exporting saw a drop in productivity of 7% to 8%. That is self-evident, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: My hon. Friend is prescient, because to export they have to be competitive. It is because I was about to move on to that subject. The concerning that despite the weakness of the pound European Union has what it calls a “Small Business against the dollar and the euro, the UK’s overall monthly Act”, which requires the EU to look at every new trade deficit on goods and services for the month of regulation before it is introduced and consider its effect November declined from £4.1 billion to £4 billion. We on small businesses to see whether very small firms need to keep a watch on that. might be exempted from it. We should do more of the same here. Only 23% of small businesses export, and those that do are often stifled by the red tape inherited from the The greatest challenges and opportunities lie in inward previous Government. Some 70% of our total exports investment—foreign direct investment, FDI—and exports. go to the markets of North America and the EU. As I identified when I was shadow Trade Minister, the However, estimates suggest that by 2020 the EU’s and previous Government’s policies on those matters were the USA’s share of global gross domestic product will incoherent, particularly with regard to the enormously have declined to less than 40%. It is therefore vital that expensive regional development authority offices that we give more help to small businesses wishing to export were based throughout the world, often in the same city, to markets outside Europe and North America, particularly and competing for the same inward investment to UK. the growing markets of the BRIC countries—Brazil, Thankfully, we have put a stop to that, and I am Russia, India and China—although many other countries delighted to hear that my right hon. Friend the Secretary out there are also growing very fast. of State is about to produce a White Paper on trade. That will be very welcome, indeed, and I am sure it will It was encouraging to see that last year UKTI’s address several measures that I am going to discuss in budget was increased because of the Foreign Office my speech. administration programme, but its future is much less If the newly created local enterprise partnerships are clear. I would say to my right hon. Friend the Minister not to have any role in FDI, presumably UK Trade and that as it is about the only bit of government that makes Investment will deliver the policy centrally from London, money for the country, and it has a huge task to do, it with small teams on the ground in the regions, something would be folly to cut its budget. that I have advocated. Perhaps the Minister, when he The ministerial structure that we have at present is makes his winding-up speech, will confirm that, because too fragmented. Exports and UKTI are handled by the FDI is a vital part of the economy. We must not only new Minister for Trade and Investment, Lord Green. seek new FDI from throughout the world, but carefully The Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation look after what we have. I was alarmed to see that Hua and Skills, the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton Wei, one of the world’s largest IT companies and based (Mr Davey), handles the ECGD; and my golly, as my in Beijing, has just moved its European headquarters hon. Friend and neighbour, the Member for Stratford- from Basingstoke to Düsseldorf. Eventually, that could on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), said, it desperately needs affect 6,000 jobs, and the Pfizer decision today is another an overhaul, with 80%—he said 90%, which is even reminder of FDI’s importance. worse—of all its lending going to aerospace, mostly to Airbus. That is unacceptable. Other countries do much Alison McGovern: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? better with their equivalent bodies, and so should we. Local enterprise partnerships are handled by the Minister Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I shall, but the hon. Lady is of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the last person I am going to give way to. my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford Alison McGovern: The hon. Gentleman mentions (Mr Prisk). It is not yet clear what role LEPs will have in FDI and UKTI—forgive me for using so many acronyms FDI and exports. —and their role in bringing in inward investment. Will Export licensing is another area that we desperately he comment on how successful centralised action to need to overhaul. I have here a quote from Mark bring in FDI to regions of this country, such as the Ridgway of Group Rhodes, who says—I hope that my north-west and the north-east, was in the 1980s and right hon. Friend the Minister will pay close attention the 1990s? to this— Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: The simple answer is that the “We are currently, for example, awaiting an export licence to previous Government were not as successful at doing Pakistan, for which we first applied over 3 months ago. The order will be lost before permission is granted.” that as they should have been, and their policies were not coherent enough. We cannot afford, as a country, to go on like this. Either I say to the Minister for Universities and Science that the export should be refused in a reasonable space of we also have to look at bringing in visas for a few very time, or it should be allowed. highly skilled people. The other day I visited a local plc. In summary, our economy is fragile. The private It employs several thousand people, but only a very sector must take up the slack of the public sector. It is few—about half a dozen—of the brightest and best vital that we have a legislative and regulatory structure people from around the world. It needs visas to get such that is ruthlessly pro-business. We must have a coherent people into this country—people who, with their ideas plan for FDI and exports, as that is where economic and innovation, can act as a multiplier for many other jobs. growth is going to come from in the future. 897 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 898 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) 2.33 pm Angela Smith: In that case, why did he not give the loan to Forgemasters in the first place? Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): I am grateful for the opportunity to participate in this The damage of the withdrawal of that loan has been debate. South Yorkshire has a very proud history of done. The costs have already gone up and made life very manufacturing, which has been demonstrated in recent difficult for the future of the nuclear supply chain in years by investment in advanced manufacturing on a this country.As everyone knows, the loan—yes, loan—was major scale—in partnership with our two fine universities, evaluated over a two-year period. The conclusion was Sheffield and Sheffield Hallam—and by the advanced that the loan made sense for Forgemasters, was good manufacturing park established on the border of Sheffield for the nuclear power industry supply chain, and was and Rotherham, which boasts partners such as blue-chip strategically important for UK manufacturing. Why, companies Rolls-Royce and Boeing, and which was then, was the loan cancelled at the whim of Ministers supported very strongly by the regional development and the real reasons never fully explained? We need an agency, Yorkshire Forward. The very model now being explanation from the Minister today. Was it because the recommended by the Tory-led Government is already Lib Dems—the coalition partners—do not believe in working in practice in South Yorkshire and is succeeding nuclear power and had to be dragged kicking and entirely because of the support and co-ordinating work screaming into a nuclear power supply arrangement for offered by Yorkshire Forward. the future? We need to know, because it has been demonstrated time and again that the money was available However, much of that is at risk because of the and was properly signed off by the Treasury. That is the shambolic way in which this Tory-led Government are crux of the problem with how the Department is being now running the Department for Business, Innovation run at present. Why should any company take the risk and Skills. There is no doubt that the economy of South of investing in the future of our nuclear power industry Yorkshire was hit hard last time the Tories were in when there is no clarity from the Government on the power. South Yorkshire suffered the double whammy of issue? I ask the Minister to clarify what role the Department the absolute decimation of the coal industry and the is playing in pushing the future of our nuclear supply serious damaging of the steel industry in places such as industry in the Government’s planning for the future. Sheffield, Doncaster and Rotherham. Now the same During the previous Parliament, the then Government’s patterns are emerging again, with short-termism—the industrial activism started to help key industries of the enemy of manufacturing—no real plan for growth, and future to ensure that our economy would be better no real plan to help South Yorkshire companies build balanced between financial services and manufacturing. for a better tomorrow. Unfortunately, the current Secretary of State and this Government have failed to build on that work. Yes, we David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Does the hon. have heard tough words from the Secretary of State Lady agree that, although we can reduce regulation and about how he will get the banks to lend money, how he bureaucracy to help small businesses, one of the most will stop the bonuses, and how he has an arsenal capable difficult issues for them is the cost of energy? The of making nuclear strikes, if necessary, against vested Government have talked about the fuel stabiliser, which interests. Unfortunately, his tough words melted away will be a vital component in helping small businesses at with the snows of December, and his arsenal of nuclear this time. weapons turned out to be as intangible as a Lib Dem promise—in other words, it did not amount to very much. Angela Smith: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. The Government’s current, very rushed, consultation Even the Secretary of State has said that his plans for on energy market reform could add significant extra regional growth are “Maoist and chaotic”, and business burdens to the intensive energy-use industries that leaders have said that the process has been badly handled. predominate in my constituency and could make them At a time when the Government tell us that money incredibly uncompetitive internationally. needs to be directed towards investment, they are scrapping the RDAs, at a cost of £435 million, and their replacement Given the latest growth figures—or should I say local enterprise partnerships are not even up and running shrinkage figures?—we need more than ever a plan for yet. Increasingly, businesses are asking us what is happening growth that invests in industry and helps to rebalance in the meantime and where the money is for investment. the economy away from the financial services and property speculation model that was built not by the previous The truth is that, at a time when the regions need Labour Government but by the Thatcher Government greater help to grow their economies, the regional growth of the 1980s, with big bang and all the rest of it. I hear fund represents a cut in funding from the £1.4 billion a nothing about that planning from those on the Government year that was available to £1.4 billion over three years. Benches. All I hear is mixed messages and talk that is all So much for the boasts from those on the Government about pleasing elements within the coalition rather than Benches on this issue. The fund now includes investment what is good for UK plc. not only for industry and regional development, but for housing and transport—no wonder it is 10-times I know that it has been mentioned many times in this oversubscribed. Chamber, but the story of the loan to Sheffield Forgemasters typifies all that is going wrong with the Department for Now is the time for brave Ministers and brave solutions. Business, Innovation and Skills. Now is the time, as Will Hutton recently commented, to build great companies. Now is the time to make the banks work for us, and not in the interests of the Mr Binley: Is the hon. Lady aware that the Secretary bankers. Now is the time to invest in all our futures and of State has said that he is more than happy to receive a in UK plc. Instead, we have a weak Secretary of State further application from Forgemasters? who cannot even hold on to his portfolio, and no 899 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 900 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) [Angela Smith] Mr Binley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am delighted that he is a member of the Select Committee growth strategy other than a crossing of the fingers and on Business, Innovation and Skills, because he brings a “hope for the best”. There is a regional growth strategy such knowledge to it. Perhaps with his help, we can get that even he thinks is chaotic. He can change course—it the changes we need to ensure that small businesses is not too late. He can decide to invest in British thrive in this country again. They have found it very manufacturing. After all, he is a Lib Dem and, as we all difficult over recent years. know, Lib Dems can change their minds and do so The working time directive was introduced in 1999 frequently. and has cost businesses £1.8 billion a year. The vehicle excise duty regulations introduced in 2000 cost businesses 2.41 pm £1.2 billion. I could go on. I refer Opposition Members to the words of David Frost, the director general of the Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): Today British Chambers of Commerce: has been a revelation to me. I understood that denial was a medically treatable condition, but I did not know “Businesses are facing the toughest economic environment for that it was a collective condition. Today has opened my a generation. Company cash flow is being squeezed and unemployment is growing as a result” eyes in that respect. The denial is best illustrated by the shadow Chancellor’s recent statement: of regulation. “I don’t think we had a structural deficit at all”. Let us lay that at the door of Opposition Members By golly, we have had a deficit every year since 2002. and let them deny it. Indeed, it rose massively to the point when, in 2010, we Let us consider the plethora of schemes that the were borrowing £1 of every £4 we spent. If that is not a previous Government introduced with a shotgun effect. structural deficit in anybody’s book, I do not know They were all good headline-catching schemes, but they what is. forgot one thing. Often, it is not what one decides to do This matter is best understood by recognising the that matters within a given set of parameters, but the growth in public sector employment of 20%. More than way that it is managed. Of course, the previous Government 1 million new people now work in the public sector. did not know anything about management, because That productivity barely rose in some areas and went most of them had not turned a penny in the real world down in others shows how successful that was. That is in their lives. That experience is vital in understanding an unbelievable fact that any businessman would say is small and medium-sized businesses, as I can tell them the road to bankruptcy. That is exactly what the previous and as the British Chambers of Commerce has told Government did to this country. Thank God we had an them. The number of companies helped by the enterprise election and a change of Government. investment scheme fell from 2,379 in 2001 to 1,073 in I will move on to other areas in which the previous 2008. It ceased to be effective to a considerable degree Government let down British industry. First, let us year by year. That underlines the fact that it needed to consider employment tribunals. When I was in business, be managed properly. I stood in four tribunals and won each of them. On I could talk about many other areas in which the each occasion, I was told by colleagues, “Pay ‘em.” The previous Government failed the people of my constituency previous Government created an aura of commercial sizeably, but I want to make one particular claim, which blackmail that is totally unacceptable. Thank God the is supported by information in the Library, so nobody present Government are doing something about that. can jump up and question it. The number of unemployed claimants in my constituency rose to 3,460 under Labour. Mel Stride: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is That is 7.4% of the economically active working population. essential that we do something about claims to employment In 1997, my constituency was only 440th among the 630 tribunals, which increased by 57% in 2010? They are or so constituencies in terms of the highest proportion feeding lawyers and depriving businesses of investment. of claimants. It rose to 132nd under Labour. There was such a big effect in Northampton, because 94% of the Mr Binley: My hon. Friend is right. There were people who are in the private sector work in small and 236,000 cases last year—a record figure. That suggests medium-sized businesses. That is how much the previous that something needs to be done. This Government are Government helped my constituents. doing something about it and I am grateful. As I have said, I could go on. I could talk about a The cost burden of regulation on business increased number of schemes, but time is limited. The truth is that by £10 billion a year under the previous Government. the manufacturing industry is beginning to grow. My That money could have been used for investment, but town has the fastest rate of employment growth in the instead it had to be spent on complying with regulation country. That has only happened since this Government after regulation, which the previous Government had came to power. They have created a new confidence and gold-plated. a new belief that we have a Government who help small and medium-sized businesses. David Noble, the chief Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend has a long and executive of the Chartered Institute of Purchasing and respected record in business. Does he agree that there is Supply said: a lack of recognition that regulation is one of the major factors that holds back small business, along with access “UK manufacturing steamed ahead in January as the sector continues to expand quicker than even the most optimistic amongst to finance? The lack of the word regulation in the us could have predicted. As well as improved market conditions motion demonstrates the lack of understanding among abroad, demand in the UK market also showed signs of growth. those on the Opposition Benches of the pain of small This is the much needed kick start to 2011 everyone in the sector business. was hoping for. A very different picture from last year.” 901 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 902 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) That message will be repeated by small businesses in my accountability in the flow of finance for SMEs. We must also constituency again and again. I have one plea, however: ensure that the planned £1.5 bn Business Growth Fund is implemented they need help from this Government, and they need now to support lending to viable companies.” more cash to help sustain the growth agenda. It is not That is the vital point. Many companies in my constituency happening, and I ask the Secretary of State to ensure that are finding it very difficult to access finance, and even we put our money where our mouth is. If we do not, the when they can, it is at a high cost. At a time when the growth agenda will be much more difficult to sustain. Bank rate of interest is 0.5%, probably the lowest in recorded history, it is ludicrous that small businesses are 2.50 pm having to pay ever-higher charges to banks to get finance, if they can get it at all. It is worrying to small business Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I am very pleased to people to read daily in the papers that the Monetary follow a typically robust speech by the hon. Member for Policy Committee is being pressed to raise the interest Northampton South (Mr Binley). I assure him that I rate to deal with fears of inflation, because that would ran a small business before coming into the House, and hit small businesses seriously. it is small businesses on which I wish to concentrate. For all the talk of making banks pay more to small Many Conservative Members have talked about what businesses, there is no sign of that actually happening. has been done for small businesses, and they have The mood music from the Davos summit, which the mentioned the reduction in corporation tax. That is Prime Minister and the Chancellor attended, appeared fine, but I remind them that very many small businesses to be that the banks are not interested in that any more. do not pay corporation tax, because they are self-employed They seem to think that they have got through it all and individuals or partnerships. They pay income tax, so a can get on with business as usual, which is totally reduction in corporation tax does not in fact help them. unacceptable. The issue has to be tackled now. My They are suffering as much as anyone else who pays constituents do not understand why so much taxpayers’ income tax. money bailed out the banks yet they are unable to get I also note that towards the end of Labour’s time in finance and help local employment. The banks have a government, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs made duty to help the people who helped them when they the situation slightly worse by examining small companies were in trouble. and deciding that many of them were not real companies, because they were operated by a husband and wife. Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): Perhaps They therefore had to come back out of the corporation I could draw to the hon. Gentleman’s attention the fact tax system and pay income tax again. Many people are that I had a meeting yesterday with the business finance not being helped by what the Government are doing on taskforce of the British Bankers Association, whose corporation tax, so I ask them to consider how those chief executive told me that its 17 initiatives to support people can be helped. lending are on track. Indeed, mentors are beginning to be recruited and the lending code is almost in place. The Lorely Burt: I am glad to inform the hon. Gentleman business growth fund is pretty much ready and just that we are indeed examining a lot of those issues, requires some changes in FSA regulation. I hope that particularly the vexed issue of IR35, which the previous that provides some comfort. Government did not manage to sort out. It is difficult to do so, but I am sure it is not beyond the wit of man to make tax fair for all small businesses. Mr Weir: Again, we hear, “It is almost there, it is coming”, but it is not here. Help is needed now. The Merlin process seems to have stalled—we were told that Mr Weir: I hope that is correct—but action is needed, there would be announcements, but they have not come. not just talk. The situation has been going on for a long If they do not come soon, it will be too late for many time, and many small businesses in my constituency and businesses. rural constituencies throughout the country are in serious difficulties and struggling to keep their heads above I turn to the second point that I wish to discuss. I water. They need help now, and the Government have agree with the Secretary of State that it is ridiculous to move on that. that there is no mention of the Post Office in the The motion mainly concerns growth in the economy, motion. I tabled an amendment to that effect, but which I understand, and I wish to talk about some of Mr Speaker did not select it. I suppose that, to be the things that small businesses need in order to grow. honest, it is unlikely that the Secretary of State would Many of the points in the motion are specific to England, have supported it even if it had been selected. but I wish to mention two matters that cover all small If we are talking about growth, we have to remember businesses, including in Scotland. that a postal service is an engine of growth for many The Minister may know that, just today, the First small companies. Many of them are very worried about Ministers of all the devolved Administrations have issued it. This morning I chaired a session of the Westminster a joint declaration calling for action to protect the eForum at which we talked about the Royal Mail’s economy. The second point made in it is about addressing universal service obligation. It was interesting to hear access to finance, and it states: the Federation of Small Businesses say that when the Government initially talked to it about privatisation, it “It is clear that securing affordable finance remains a considerable challenge for many of our companies. This is particularly true for was given assurances that small businesses would be many small and medium sized firms—the bedrock of the Scottish, okay and that their interests would be looked after. Welsh and Northern Irish economies. However, it is becoming increasingly worried about It is unacceptable that many businesses are being prevented what is happening. It points out that in April, first-class from expanding or are faced with significant increases in lending mail will go up by 12%, large letters by 13%,a2kgparcel charges and we need to ensure there is in place transparency and by 8% and a special delivery by 8%. Worse still—I find 903 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 904 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) [Mr Weir] Gavin Williamson: As hon. Members say, the name was changed to the Department for Education because this utterly ludicrous—a business that currently goes to that is what it is. I am very proud that the Department a sorting centre to collect its own mail will apparently for Business, Innovation and Skills is not about to be charged £210 for the privilege of doing so. Where is change its name again for about the fourth or fifth time the logic in that? What on earth is going on? in as many years. I urge Members to read, if they have not done so, While the Labour Government focused on name Postcomm’s research paper “Business customer needs and branding, they ignored the importance of our from a sustainable universal postal service in the UK”, manufacturing base, which is much talked about. As which was published towards the end of last year. It has been pointed out, 4.3 million people were employed makes very interesting reading about how small businesses in manufacturing in 1997, but only 2.5 million were see the postal service. employed in 2010. That is a catastrophic decline. Opposition Members might say that there was an increase in output, Mr Binley rose— but the reality is shown in OECD figures. In the industrial sector, which covers manufacturing, mining and energy Mr Weir: Sorry; I have taken two interventions. production, UK gross value added was 25% in 1997—the Many small businesses continue to use the post, as same as in Germany. However, the figures for 2008, they do not have the ability to get the special deals that which are the latest figures, show that gross value added are available from other carriers. Of those that spend was 26% in Germany, but only 18% in the UK. That is between £100 and £500 a month on mail, which include decline in anyone’s judgment, and it is the dreadful the smallest businesses, 72% have either stayed at the legacy of Lord Mandelson, the Labour party and their same level of Royal Mail usage or increased it in the inaction. past year. Many businesses see e-fulfilment, as I am told we have to call it, as a way to extend and grow their Tom Blenkinsop: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in business, but they need access to the postal service. 1987, 26,000 worked at British Steel and Redcar Teesside Many are becoming increasingly worried, as I am, Cast Products, but by 1992, fewer than 5,000 worked about what will happen to the universal service after there? privatisation. They see a reduction in service as meaning that they will be unable to access business at a reasonable Gavin Williamson: I was unaware of that but I thank cost. The changes that are already coming in show that the hon. Gentleman for saying so. We need a revival of that cost will go up and up, at a time when businesses all manufacturing, right across the country. are already suffering from fuel price increases. They Opposition Members might say that lower corporation have been hit all ways, and action is needed now to tax will not encourage growth, but actually, lower taxes help them. do encourage growth. They encourage people to invest in this country, and encourage people both in this country and abroad to bring jobs and investment here. 2.59 pm I welcome the Government’s move to introduce the Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): I share enterprise allowance, which will encourage those who some of the incredulity of my hon. Friend the Member are unemployed to create new jobs and to seize the for Northampton South (Mr Binley) at Opposition opportunity to create wealth. Members’ apparent total denial of the fact that their party was so greatly responsible for the catastrophic Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): My hon. Friend economic situation that it bequeathed the coalition makes some fascinating points. I am amazed that we are Government. talking about the machinery of government. I would I remember talking to a gentleman from a trade like to focus on something on which the Department is organisation who told me that the problem with the doing a fantastic job: improving our skills base. That is previous Government was that they were obsessed about an area that really needs attention. If he is right about presentation and constantly wanted to change the names manufacturing, I am certainly right that we need to of the Department, but did not consider the problems ensure that we have the right people to employ in a affecting business. I am shocked that a Department led growing manufacturing sector, and it is important also— by Lord Mandelson would be more interested in presentation, marketing and publicity than anything else. Gavin Williamson: I thank my hon. Friend for such a—

Mr Binley: I am incredulous that my hon. Friend was Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Will the surprised at that fact. hon. Gentlemen resume their seats? There is a time limit on speeches, and also a time limit on interventions—it Gavin Williamson: I put it down to the naivety of is called “short”. youth. Hopefully age will make me wiser. Gavin Williamson: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I Alison McGovern: Will the hon. Gentleman therefore also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil explain, for the benefit of the House, why one of the Carmichael) for making such lucid points. Government’s first acts was to change the name of My hon. Friend is right about training and giving the Department for Children, Schools and Families to business the freedom to succeed—freedom from regulation. the Department for Education? That is why I pay tribute to Ministers in the Department. They have introduced a one-in, one-out policy on regulations Hon. Members: That’s what it is! —or I very much hope they will do so shortly. I would 905 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 906 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) encourage them to be bolder, and certainly to be bolder of the steps that Labour took in government, but in the than the Labour Government, and to make that a one-in, last quarter of 2010, it fell by 3.3%. The construction two-out policy. Let us be bold. Let us free industry from industry and house builders are increasingly concerned the shackles of government. about the consequences of the Government’s actions in The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge respect of everything from cuts in capital investment to (Angela Smith) made a valid point on intensive users of the scrapping of regional spatial strategies. Two hundred energy. We must be wary of environmental regulation. thousand planned homes will not now be built, which is If we are not careful, we will ship business out from this why the Federation of Master Builders, which represents country to countries such as Ukraine, which do not SMEs in the building industry, predicts 11,000 job have a care for environmental regulation. We will not losses, and why the Construction Products Association just be shipping carbon abroad; we will also ship jobs. I predicts a 2% fall this year. ask my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench to bear that in mind. Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) The hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and (Lab): Is my hon. Friend aware that one of the major East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) made the valid point concerns of the construction industry is skills training that we need to encourage jobs right across the and whether it will have a skilled work force for the manufacturing sector. We must be careful with all regulation, future? Labour worked to increase the number of but especially with environmental regulation. apprenticeships vastly, and it is welcome that the Government have made a similar commitment. However, Opposition Members sometimes seem not to accept it will not be sufficient to meet the future demand of the the fact that businesses do not always want to be construction industry, especially in a low-carbon economy. involved in the intricacies of government. Businesses want the freedom to get on, but they need help with financing. There is a real squeeze for many small and Jack Dromey: I agree with my hon. Friend. medium-sized businesses in getting the finance that they Representatives of the construction industry who have need. The Black Country Reinvestment Society helps come to see me have said with one voice that the danger many SMEs in my constituency and much of the black in what is now happening is that capacity is going and country, including new businesses. It uses small amounts vitally needed skills are being dispersed and, in the of capital to give those businesses the opportunity to event of recovery, they would no longer be available. grow and expand. I encourage Ministers to look at the My second example comes from local government, model to see how it can be expanded across the country. which has had 27% cuts, frontloaded by the Secretary I also encourage Ministers to look at the German of State. The impact will be enormous, and it is model. Many German banks do not simply lend to already clear from the Local Government Association businesses and provide mortgages and banking facilities; that 140,000 jobs will go in local government. But as they actually take an equity stake in the businesses. PricewaterhouseCoopers has said, for every job that That stake means that they have a long-term vision for goes in local government, a job will go in the private those businesses. More support, rather than more sector. Local government’s procurement budget is £38 interference, is what is needed in this country. billion. Some £20 billion goes to SMEs, so the impact of these savage, deep and frontloaded cuts will be catastrophic Businessmen do not want a constant dialogue with for SMEs that depend on local government throughout civil servants and politicians. They want and need low Britain. taxes, low levels of regulation and most importantly of all, a stable economy. I encourage Ministers not to think that more government will lead to more business, Anne Marie Morris: Is the hon. Gentleman aware but to think that less government will lead to more that the Reed job index went up nine points in January, business. and that the growth is in engineering and construction?

Jack Dromey: With the greatest respect, I am not sure 3.7 pm what planet the hon. Lady lives on. The figures on the Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): When economy are clear: the Government inherited a growing times are tough, it is all the more important for the economy, but it has now stalled and gone into reverse. Government to have a strategy for growth. That is why My third example relates to the abolition of the the Labour Government, at a time of global crisis, regional development agencies. Thirty years ago, the invested in the economy to get it moving, with enormous midlands used to be one of the two strongest economies benefits for our manufacturing base. The car scrappage in the country, but it is now one of the two weakest. We scheme was warmly welcomed by the Society of Motor had the most successful RDA, Advantage West Midlands, Manufacturers and Traders because 400,000 cars were of anywhere in Britain. For every £1 of public money built. The stimulus package in the construction industry invested, £8.14 was produced in wealth in the private was warmly welcomed by everyone from the National sector. Crucially and in addition, Advantage West Midlands House-Building Council and the Home Builders Federation. managed shocks to the motor industry, such as the Some 110,000 homes were built, and 70,000 jobs and closure of Rover, and promoted the motor manufacturing 3,000 apprentices were created or saved. cluster in the midlands. The cluster is 150,000 strong, The Government inherited a growing economy when from the prime companies through the components they took power, but they have slammed on the brakes, companies, the machine tool companies and the logistics and the economy has gone into reverse. Let me give companies, all the way down to the games companies three examples. First, 10% of our gross domestic product with which Jaguar Land Rover is working right now on growth comes from construction. The construction industry the next generation of in-car entertainment systems. was growing in the first half of 2010 as a consequence That cluster, galvanised by Advantage West Midlands, 907 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 908 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) [Jack Dromey] Let us not repeat the mistakes of history. It was a tragic error of judgment not to agree the Forgemasters was one of the key reasons why Jaguar Land Rover last application. If we are to see a renaissance of the nuclear year decided to commit to Britain as its global hub and industry in Britain, with British manufacturing benefiting to invest £5 billion over 10 years, creating thousands of as a consequence, we should back Forgemasters. jobs and bringing wealth to our economy. 3.16 pm Mr Marcus Jones: The hon. Gentleman praises the Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): It is an honour RDA Advantage West Midlands. How does he square to follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington that praise with the fact that private sector employment (Jack Dromey) who has a very positive outlook on the in the west midlands fell rather than increased during current situation. I welcome the opportunity to speak the time that this RDA was in place? in this debate, and we should not underestimate the importance of getting economic growth back into our Jack Dromey: I believe in the real world of work and economy. We still face difficult economic times. We in listening to the voice of the business community. must not forget that we have had the worst recession There has been widespread concern and criticism from since the second world war, with six quarters of negative across the business community in the midlands about growth. We are now suffering from the hangover from the abolition of Advantage West Midlands. Indeed, that, and from the debt inherited from Labour. Business Voice WM, on behalf of the business community in the midlands, has put forward a proposal that stresses The deficit is one of the greatest barriers to growth. the importance of maintaining a regional strategic structure My right hon. Friend the Chancellor is right to stick to if the success of that motor manufacturing cluster is to his guns on his deficit-reducing strategy. The IMF continue. agrees: it has identified that insufficient progress with fiscal consolidation in the medium term would be a key Lorely Burt: The hon. Gentleman’s experience of the downside risk to growth. We should all remember that. business community in the west midlands is not mine. The path to growth is likely to be rocky, but we must I have found that the business community has been put the building blocks in place to rebalance our economy excited about the prospect of taking its destiny in its into a more sustainable and resilient model, based on a own hands, together with elected representatives from broader spread of industry, rather than put all our eggs the local authority, and creating a forward-thinking into one basket. We must also listen to business. Before local enterprise partnership. and after the election, business was looking for three things—lower taxes, less regulation and more bank Jack Dromey: Again, with the greatest respect, I am lending. Some progress has been made by the new not sure which business community the hon. Lady is Government and there is far greater intent than there talking about. All five of the organisations that represent was in the past. But there is still some way to go. the business community in the midlands have told me I read today’s motion with interest. It seems to hark that they are determined to try to make the best of a back to a golden age in which the previous Government bad job, following the abolition of Advantage West proclaimed the success of the RDAs. The former Prime Midlands, and make the LEPs work, but they are Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and dealing with confused and competing voices. The LEPs Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), and his then Business Secretary have no statutory basis and no funding at a time of toured the country handing out rubber cheques that no major local government cuts. Those organisations are one ever mentioned in the Budget, and which could increasingly despairing, because they have lost what never have been cashed. Their tenure did not result in worked in favour of something that, at the moment, an enviable record. The RDAs were top-heavy, with looks like it will not work. £246 million spent on administration alone in 2008-09. I listened with amazement to the arguments which in That is not a record to be proud of. However, despite effect said that the Government should get out of the the RDA my region—the west midlands—saw a contraction economy and industry. Anyone who has ever had anything in private sector employment. That does not make to do with the real world of work, here in Britain and in sense, because the RDA was there to promote private France or Germany, knows the simple truth that the sector employment, not throw money into the public role of good government is key to a successful economy. sector. Across the country we saw a reduction in Time and again over the years I have worked with the manufacturing jobs of 1.8 million under the Labour private sector and engaged with the Government to try Government. That is not a record to be proud of, nor is to get them to do the right thing—such as the scrappage it a golden legacy; it is something that this Government scheme and the stimulus scheme that kept our house have inherited and are having to deal with. building industry from collapse. Let me turn to the coalition Government and the In the next stages, I hope that Ministers will recognise difficult balance that we are having to strike between the value of partnership and industrial activism, and dealing with the deficit and getting sustainable growth. will make the right decisions. Jaguar Land Rover is Despite the Opposition’s rhetoric, the coalition parties making applications, under the regional growth fund, do have a plan for sustainable growth. There is a common on both the lightweight platform and the small engine. theme or thread running through many policy areas. We Investment in those will create tens of thousands of have the LEPs, which are far more focused and business-led. jobs in Britain. Warwick university’s proposal to become I am sure that they will not be like Labour’s talking a technology and innovation centre would make it the shops, which disengaged business. In particular, the global hub for automotive research and development Coventry and Warwickshire LEP, with which I have worldwide and is strongly supported by Jaguar. Investment been proud to associate myself, is doing a fantastic job in that would greatly strengthen the motor manufacturing promoting the Coventry and Warwickshire area. I look cluster in the midlands. forward to the progress that it will make in future. 909 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 910 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) Nor should we dismiss the £30 billion of investment the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, my being pumped into our transport infrastructure, or the hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West fact that the regional growth fund is bringing £1.4 billion (Mr Bailey), mentioned research and development tax into the economy to pump-prime projects such as those credits, and we have seen the sweeping away of investment being considered at MIRA—the Motor Industry Research allowances. Association—on the A5 on the edge of my constituency, which will bring in £250 million of private sector investment Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Is my and could create 2,000 jobs. [Interruption.] Opposition hon. Friend as surprised as I am that the Government’s Members shake their heads. They obviously do not policy seems to be replicated only by Romania, which is want such investments to be made. I am also encouraged countering recession by cutting investment in universities by the way in which the Government have started to and science, whereas everyone else is adopting a counter- reduce red tape and regulation, with the one-in, one-out cyclical investment strategy? strategy, reducing gold-plating and introducing business mentors to help new businesses grow. All those measures Alison McGovern: I thank my hon. Friend for that will create jobs. I hope that when the Minister winds up intervention. As Bill Shankly used to say, “I’m only he will elaborate on how we will expedite that process surprised that people are surprised at the surprises.” and ensure that it moves forward far more quickly. The Liverpool Daily Post said today: I am also pleased that we are committed to reducing “The scrapping of the Grants for Business Investment scheme corporation tax, which we need to do to move all will leave Merseyside companies seeking smaller amounts of businesses forward. Lower taxes are a way of stimulating investment aid with nowhere to turn…The flagship ‘regional the economy, benefitting not just the banks, as Opposition growth fund’ currently only accepts applications for at least Members have said. I am also absolutely delighted that £1m—and its first round of bids was seven times oversubscribed. my hon. Friend the Minister for Further Education, Local Enterprise Partnerships will have no funding.” Skills and Lifelong Learning has introduced another So if the companies in my constituency did not believe 75,000 apprenticeships this year to close the skills gap that when I said it, they have now heard it from our left by Labour. We had to bring in labour from abroad local media too. to fill the skills gap when the economy was expanding, when we had many people here who could have filled it Margot James: The hon. Lady mentioned the science themselves. I have only a short time left, so I hope that base and investment. The Business, Innovation and when the Minister winds up he can give me more Skills Committee heard evidence yesterday from information on what is happening with bank lending, representatives of the aerospace industry, who said that which is an extremely important part of the package. they wanted to continue to invest in the UK because of I know that the previous Government failed miserably our skills base. It is not just me saying that the Government on that, and that the new Government are grappling to are supporting science; the president of the Royal Society get it right, but if the Minister can tell us what is has complimented the Government on recognising the happening, that would be very helpful for us to pass importance of Britain’s standing in the scientific world. back to our constituencies. All savings from the science base will be reinvested back To conclude, we do have a package for growth and we into science. are moving it forward. There are areas where it needs to be moved forward more quickly— Alison McGovern: That is an interesting perspective, and I obviously have great respect for the learned people Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. that the hon. Lady has mentioned—[Interruption.] Of course I have great respect for the Royal Society. 3.22 pm The Government cannot say that the corporation tax Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I am sorry cut will enable investment. Ireland had one of the that the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) lowest corporation tax rates, and look what happened has left his place, because he made quite an accusation there. about Opposition Members, saying that we had no insights into the world of business. I have the greatest of Mel Stride: Will the hon. Lady give way? respect for the hon. Gentleman, but I will take no lessons from a party that is led by not one but two Alison McGovern: I have given way twice; I will not former special advisers—especially when the only experience give way again. in industry that one of them has comes from working The corporation tax cut will help only companies in telly. with profits. We want to see strategic Government-led I want to say a few words about growth and, briefly, and business-led investment in the sectors that can most about the impact on young people of the circumstances help us to progress out of the recession. I see no that we face. Since the election I have visited a huge leadership from the Government on this issue. They number of companies in my constituency and the Wirral, constantly crow about tax cuts for business, but they especially science-led, high-tech and efficient manufacturing have effectively handed profits back to the profitable companies. The message from those companies is universal bits of the banking sector and large companies, when and clear. The thing that they want to drive the growth they should be using that money to invest in high-technology of their businesses is investment. The question that I am manufacturing, such as that in my constituency. That often asked is: where is the Government action to message is coming to me loud and clear from the global improve investment in high-tech manufacturing? There corporations that invest in Merseyside, as well as from seems to be some sort of ideological opposition from the small companies. They need investment now, not an the Government to backing investment. The Chair of across-the-board corporation tax cut. 911 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 912 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) [Alison McGovern] investment in business and about business growth. Money might well be set aside, but we still might not see I now turn to the impact of all this on young people the increase in opportunities for young people that we and on employment. Everyone in this House is concerned need. about young people, as well we should be. People will Let me leave the Minister responsible for further know that in the protests that have been taking place education and the Business Secretary with this final around the world, the action has been most pronounced point. They must work with local government. In Wirral, in countries with extremely high unemployment. We the one thing that has made a real difference to have to face the facts. The Government’s offer to young apprenticeships and young people’s employment is the people in Britain has been massively diminished. We Wirral apprentice scheme. It was funded with working have seen an end to the September guarantee and an neighbourhoods fund money via the local authority, end to the future jobs fund, which I know was helping which meant that that small and medium-sized enterprises young people in my constituency to build their CVs, so could access support to hire apprentices. That is the one that when the recession ended and growth returned, thing that has worked. Making local government suffer they would be able to apply for jobs. We have seen an the biggest cuts in any part of government is not fair, end to the education maintenance allowance, which was and the impact will be worse on young people. I plead helping young people in my constituency to travel to the with the Secretary of State and the Minister— best possible courses for them, and an end to the commitment of the previous Government to the level of Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. funding for further and higher education. I was so concerned about what might happen to 3.31 pm young people’s employment prospects that I asked the Minister responsible for employment some parliamentary Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): Over the questions about his expectations for the number of last few years, the thing that I have heard most from 16 to 24-year-olds on the dole. By my calculation, once business—whether it be from the Federation of Small we have taken into account the population projection Businesses, the chambers of commerce or individual for the current cohort of 16 to 24-year-olds, the Government businesses that I have dealt with in my own business, as expect there to be a reduction in the number of 16 to a parliamentary candidate or, for the past 10 months or 24-year-olds on the dole across the life of this Parliament so, as an MP—is that there is too much regulation. My of less than one percentage point. I must ask Government hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South Members whether they think it is good enough that the (Mr Binley) made the point extremely well earlier, and Government’s ambition throughout this Parliament is just how much of a predicament that poses for business to reduce the number of young people on the dole by growth cannot be underestimated. It really does hamper one percentage point. I do not think that is good enough. too many business men, particularly those in small The only answer that the Government seem to have businesses, who spend too much of their time dealing to the unemployment that young people are facing with regulation. They spend more time dealing with because of the global crash and the Government’s that and feeding back data than they ever do in developing inaction is their spurious figure of 75,000 new and selling their businesses. That has got to stop. I apprenticeships. We have already heard evidence that, congratulate the Government on taking steps to deal even during the recession, the Labour Government with it. were supporting a year-on-year increase in the number Business is unlikely to thank the Labour party or of apprenticeships of more than that, so the present Opposition Members for tabling this motion. When plan seems wholly unambitious. business people look through it, they will find that it There is a further problem for 16 to 18-year-olds, contains nothing positive about either this country’s many of whom are the very people we want to get into business or what the Labour party suggests should be industry and business. They might not want to stay in done about it. Perhaps we are back to the original blank full-time education, for whatever reason. As far as I can sheet of paper; I suspect that it will stay like that for ascertain—I stand to be corrected if the Minister wants some time yet. to intervene—16 to 18-year-olds will not be eligible for What business is more interested in is not the clunking the new adult apprenticeships that the Minister wants fist of Whitehall that pulls a lever and delivers a box to fund. that it has to fit into—through some fictionally created regional development agency that was simply not The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong delivering—but the opportunity to develop its own Learning (Mr John Hayes): We do not have much time, destiny. In my area, for example, the New Anglia local so I will be brief. The hon. Lady is right that 16 to enterprise partnership is excited about the opportunities 18-year-olds are not eligible for the 75,000 extra available for Norfolk and Suffolk businesses to work apprenticeships, which are based on the £250 million we together. It is something that they desired, which they have invested in adult apprenticeships, but my role in brought forward themselves, and it is led by the business the Department for Education means that I have been able community.This is not a Government quango or something to secure money to allow for 30,000 more apprenticeships directed from Whitehall, but something that the businesses for 16 to 18-year-olds, making more than 100,000 in want, working on issues that they want to work on. all—the biggest boost ever in the number of apprenticeships That is hugely important to the LEP.It is why organisations in Britain. ranging from Adnams and the Federation of Small Businesses to the energy industry and companies Alison McGovern: I am glad to hear the Minister’s such as Lotus are excited about what this can deliver. It intervention; I have often found him to be a partner for has been fantastic to see businesses working together, and peace on this subject. However, I still worry about with local authorities, to deliver the LEP for our area. 913 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 914 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) The key is the “L” in “LEP”—local. The LEP can analytical critiques of the previous Administration, but look at what Norfolk and Suffolk want and need. That at no point did he reveal a strategy of his own to boost is why it is able to focus correctly on tourism, for jobs and growth in our economy. That is a great pity. example, or other industries that can create jobs and I shall make two points in the short time available to develop the economy more quickly and more cheaply me. The first concerns the economy beyond Twickenham— than almost anything else. Energy, as I say, is also the economy that exists out there in the rest of the hugely important to our region. The energy industry in country.Notwithstanding all the criticisms that Government our area is represented largely by an organisation called Members may make of regional development agencies the East of England Energy Group, which brings together in their particular form, it was not necessary to put in private companies, which fund it, support it and work the bin all the programmes, grants, loans and interventions together within it. The LEP has recognised that and is and all the legal powers that were at their disposal at working with the energy industry. such a critical time for growth in our economy. One important shortage is skills. There is a huge gap Unfortunately, our growth rate does appear to be faltering. between the demand for skills in the energy industry—we I am not sure that that can be attributed entirely to such have a burgeoning energy industry, with even more to measures as the scrapping of RDAs, but there is no come from renewable energy and wind farms—and doubt that RDAs brought with them an acumen, and what is currently available. That is why I congratulate an ability to intervene and engage in dialogue with the Department and the Minister for Further Education, business, that we are missing as they begin to wind Skills and Lifelong Learning on the great work down. already done. As we have just heard, they are now Others have mentioned schemes such as the grant for delivering more than 100,000 apprenticeships for various business investment and regional selective assistance, ages. Potentially even more important is the fact that which invested a significant amount in about 50 companies colleges will have the freedom to develop the skill sets in Nottinghamshire and created an enormous number that people need in their local areas to deliver for of jobs. Every pound that was invested produced £9 worth business. of growth. I urge the Department to think again about The energy industry in my region has been screaming its lack of regional growth policy: it is essential that out for some time, but it has not been telling me about they return to that mode. the great work that the RDAs were doing or thanking The second point that I wish to raise in the couple of the previous Government for what they did. It has been minutes that I have left relates to the Department’s saying, “We need freedom from regulation, and we need failure to tackle the banking crisis properly. Only about to be able to develop skills for the future.” I urge the 12 months ago, the Secretary of State made a number Minister and his Department to view carefully and of fine promises to the country. He said that he would sympathetically the bid from Norfolk and Suffolk for a insist that bankers were transparent about executive skills centre that would focus particularly on the delivery remuneration. Just 14 months ago, he told the Daily of skills for the energy industry. Mail that it was “a small advance”—I believe that he The Government’s moves to free up colleges, create used the word “whitewash”—to make executive pay of apprenticeships and invest money are enabling us to over £1 million transparent purely on the basis of the develop the skill sets that our country, and in particular numbers involved. That, he said, was a puny act. He my region, need. It is that development of skill sets that said: will deliver growth, and it is that education and those “Shareholders who own the banks and the taxpayers who apprentices that will enable our economy to develop. guarantee them have every right to know who is being paid how I congratulate the Department, and our Government as much and for what… Directors of public companies are already a whole, on the fantastic work that they are doing in required to declare their earnings… The failure of Walker to grasp this is compounded by Alistair Darling’s meek acceptance that regard. It is just a shame that the Opposition seem of his recommendations. There are splits in the Government… to have no ideas of their own to take us forward. Taxpayers sign the bankers’ bonus cheques – so we must see the names and numbers on them.” 3.35 pm The Secretary of State’s own words are coming back to haunt him. It would be tragic if his emasculation in Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): As only government meant that his diminishing power slipped a few minutes remain before the winding-up speeches, I further as he moved down the Cabinet table. It is shall be able to make only a limited number of points. important that he meets that weakness test. I hope that I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for he will find a way to strengthen his position in government Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), who summed and take some action on the basic measures that we up the Department’s current problem succinctly. Its need to increase transparency in our economy. problem is that it focuses on commentary and has no focus on delivery. It is a backward-looking Department. 3.40 pm Something obviously happened to the Secretary of State, once a great champion of intervention, during his Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The shortness of time transmogrification as he took public office. [Interruption.] available means that I will not have the opportunity to My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) refer to all Members in my summing up of this debate. suggests that the Secretary of State’s political motives It has become better humoured as it has progressed and may have changed. In any event, he lost all sight and although that is perhaps unusual, I hope that it will knowledge of the role that stimulus can play in our continue. I particularly thank my hon. Friend the Member economy, and returned to the laissez-faire approach for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), the Chair of the that his new-found friends have always adopted. He Select Committee, for his contribution, which made has no plans for growth. He ran through a number of mention of Sir Richard Lambert’s statement that the 915 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 916 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) [Ian Lucas] Growth took place and the deficit, about which we have heard so much from those on the Government Benches, Government have “failed to articulate” their vision for came in £20 billion less because of the action taken by growth. That was the case before his speech, but I regret business and by Government to reduce the crisis that that they have failed to articulate their vision for growth faced this country in 2008. again today. My right hon. Friend the Member for Let us contrast that with the lack of urgency and Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) made a complacency of this Government. In their hallowed particularly valuable contribution, pointing out that coalition agreement, they said that they needed “to take £2.8 billion has come out of capital allowances for urgent action”, but they have not done so. Nine months manufacturing industry and £2.7 billion has gone into on, we have no major loan guarantee scheme and no the rest of the economy, including a tax cut for bankers. effective proposals to ensure a flow of credit for SMEs. Bankers were mentioned regularly in the debate. That point has been made across the House and it is The hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton- about time Government Front Benchers started to listen. Brown) made an interesting contribution, in which he The only step that they have taken on finance is to referred to investment and the issue of visas. That extend the Labour enterprise finance guarantee scheme. continues to be a problem, notwithstanding the efforts We have had no growth White Paper, and the Maoist that the Secretary of State has made. The important and chaotic establishment of local enterprise partnerships issue of foreign direct investment was also raised. The means that those who should be working to bring jobs hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) made the valuable to British industry are looking for jobs themselves. The point about individuals and partnerships that do not university sector that is so crucial to our long-term pay corporation tax and therefore do not benefit from future is, after a decade of increased investment, wrestling tax cuts of that nature. We need to examine ways in with the consequences of an 80% cut in its budget. which those individuals and partnerships can benefit At a Federation of Small Businesses dinner last night, from support. Investment in business is very important I was asked, “What has happened to the one-in, one-out indeed, a fact stressed by the hon. Member for South rule?” What are the Government doing about it? We Staffordshire (Gavin Williamson) in a valuable contribution. have had the soundbite, but when is the policy going to I particularly enjoyed the contribution from my hon. be implemented? That is what businesses are asking me. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), The Secretary of State was at the dinner last night, so I who introduced Bill Shankly into the debate. I have to hope he heard that, too. I was talking to people from say that the late, great Bill Shankly’s views on economic the chemical industry yesterday and they told me about growth were much more coherent than the Secretary of the negative impact on business of the Government’s State’s. new visa regulations. Similarly, research from the Federation Last week’s growth figures were truly shocking. When of Master Builders tells us that the VAT increase will Labour left office, growth was increasing and unemployment cost 7,500 jobs in the construction sector alone. That is was falling. The net result of this Tory-led Government’s the sort of contribution that the Government are making policies has been to create conditions where the economy to industry at this time. As the Secretary of State has has contracted and unemployment is rising. In 2008, said today, increased taxes cost more jobs than cuts in the Labour Government faced the most severe world expenditure. That is absolutely right, so why did he economic crisis since 1929. Their response was to introduce increase VAT? a number of policies to support industry and jobs, and To cap it all, responsibility for one of the most they acted fast. They gave business more time to pay successful and important industrial sectors in the United taxes. They introduced an enterprise finance guarantee Kingdom—telecommunications—has been transferred scheme to assist lending to business, and a car scrappage out of BIS because of the Secretary of State’s incompetence. scheme to support our automotive industry at its most This very morning, I was asked by telecoms representatives difficult time. They also used Train to Gain to help if the sector will be transferred back to BIS when the businesses to invest in training. Not one of those initiatives Secretary of State leaves. Perhaps he can answer that. was opposed at the time by any of the parties now on There is no clearer symbol of the diminution of the the Government Benches; on the contrary, the criticism Department than that transfer of responsibility for a that I received at the Dispatch Box was that our major sector of the industrial economy. It is a disgrace Government were not spending enough money fast and it will have a detrimental effect on British business enough. So all the tears that we see at the moment do and British industry as a whole. not reflect the position of the parties now on the Government Benches when they were in opposition. Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): As well as providing effective help fast in the short Will the hon. Gentleman give way? term, Labour’s active industrial strategy helped to create the right conditions for industry to grow—that growth Ian Lucas: No, I will not give way. was the legacy of the Labour Government to this The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Tory-led Government. We married research with industry is at the margins at the very time when it needs to be at to create the right conditions for investment. We got the centre of Government policy—and it loses battles. investment from Nissan and Toyota in low-carbon vehicles, It has lost a battle with the Department for Communities and from Clipper in offshore wind. We obtained investment and Local Government about planning, it has lost a and support for institutions such as the National battle with the Home Office over visas and it has lost Composites Centre in aerospace, with companies such a battle with the Treasury on banks. It is a Department as Airbus, AgustaWestland and GKN plc being involved. diminished in influence and it is failing and letting That response was led by a Business Department that down business. For the sake of British industry it needs was at the heart of government when it needed to be. to change and it needs to change fast. 917 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 918 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) 3.47 pm responsibility of UK Trade & Investment, but if LEPs wish to work with UKTI on that, they are welcome to The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David do so. Willetts): What a dismal picture of the business of government the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) has just painted. He thinks that all we should ever do is Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): Will the wage war with our own colleagues in order to raise the Minister give way? growth rate. That might be how the Labour Government functioned, with everyone having to fight their own Mr Willetts: No, I shall try to make progress. corner against all the other Departments, but it is not We have taken a deliberate decision to focus our trade how the coalition Government function. We all work activity on the big, growing economies of the future— together on an agenda to sort out the mess we were left Brazil, Russia, India and China. My right hon. Friend by the previous Labour Government and the only way the Secretary of State has already personally led trade we can sort out a mess that big is if all the Departments missions to all four of those growing economies—crucial share the same agenda—and we absolutely do. That markets for the future. So yes, we are absolutely battling agenda has business and being pro-business and pro-growth for Britain in trade talks. at its heart. Let me take hon. Members through the measures we Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I made this point in my are introducing that are aimed absolutely at backing speech: we should be concentrating not only on the British business and raising our growth rate. For a start, BRIC countries, but on other fast-growing markets we are reforming corporation tax, bringing the main such as Indonesia and Turkey, and I seek the Minister’s rate down from 28% to 24%, making it one of the assurance that we will do that. lowest rates in the advanced western world. We have already eased the burden of national insurance on Mr Willetts: I intend, time permitting, to go to Indonesia, British business by £3 billion and we are specifically where we have some specific trade objectives, and I helping small businesses. Several colleagues, including think the Secretary of State plans to be in Turkey, so we my hon. Friends the Members for Brighton, Kemptown recognise those countries’ importance. All of us, working (Simon Kirby), for Northampton South (Mr Binley) with Lord Green in the other House, have trade promotion and for South Staffordshire (Gavin Williamson), have at the top of our agenda for this Government. raised the issue of small businesses, to which we are committed. There is the scheme that the hon. Member I have referred to the burden of tax, the burden of for Wrexham mentioned, which we inherited from regulation, our support for small businesses, infrastructure Labour—the enterprise finance guarantee scheme—which and trade. There is also the crucial investment in the helps small businesses. We have put an extra £600 million skills that we need for the future. Again, we inherited a into it so that there is extra lending to small businesses. mess from Labour. Many Members on both sides of the In addition, we have created the new enterprise allowance House will remember the disappointment when further scheme, aimed at helping unemployed people to get education colleges, having had their hopes raised that work as self-employed. Of course, we know that one of there would be billions of pounds for capital projects, the biggest problems that small businesses face is the found that the money ran out. Labour’s problem with burden of employment regulation, which is why we are further education was that the money ran out even committed to reforming employment tribunals—to give before the election, so Labour Members were holding small businesses confidence to take on new staff. the baby. They know the situation they left us. Of course we are committed to bringing down the burden of red tape. We are absolutely committed to the Mr Harris: The Minister has outlined the impressive one-in, one-out rule, and we are also ending the gold- growth strategy being pursued by this Conservative-led plating of regulations from Brussels that add completely Government, which has resulted in a 0.5% contraction unnecessary burdens to British business. We are committed in the economy. What would that have looked like to well-balanced regional growth, which is why we already without his growth strategy? What would have been the have 28 local enterprise partnerships going. They already result if we had been deprived of that strategy? represent two thirds of all businesses across the country. There is a regional growth fund with £1.4 billion to Mr Willetts: We do not know what would have happened invest on excellent projects across our regions. to the British economy if the Labour party had been in Yes, we are absolutely backing growth and we are office, but I tell the House that if Labour had carried on tackling the fundamental weaknesses that we inherited borrowing in the way it was, we could well have faced a from the Labour Government, such as insufficient crisis of the kind that happened in Ireland, Greece and investment in infrastructure. That is why we have produced Portugal. We will never let Labour Members forget that a national infrastructure plan, with a green investment they were taking Britain to the brink of that type of bank and £1 billion for energy-efficient investment, financial crisis. We have taken our country away from it. with more to come as asset sales come through. I was about to refer to the investment that we are also We are committed to trade and to ensuring that making in skills, with support through the capital renewal Britain is open for business. I can tell my hon. Friend fund for our FE colleges, steered by my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) the Minister for Further Education, Skills and that we absolutely understand that and we will be Lifelong Learning, and a commitment to 75,000 extra setting out in our trade policy White Paper, which is due apprenticeships. We can already see the impact of our very soon, the overall framework of trade policy. We do commitment on apprenticeships: in the first quarter of not believe that LEPs should automatically be held the year, we had 120,000 new apprenticeship starts, responsible for trade policy. Inward investment will be a while a year ago, at the same moment, the figure was 919 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 920 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) [Mr Willetts] Then the right hon. Gentleman seemed to fail to recognise the wide range of business leaders in Britain 100,000. Extra apprenticeships are already coming through and elsewhere who have backed our policy to tackle the because of our practical commitment to vocational deficit. He went on to say that we just blamed the snow training. for the economic problems that we faced. Okay, I will Alongside vocational training, of course we recognise do a deal with the shadow Secretary of State. We do not the continuing pressure on our universities. That is why just blame the snow; we blame the last Labour Government. we had to reform their financing. Had we not done so, It was the last Labour Government who got us into we would have faced reductions in the number of university this mess. They left us an economy with the worst places or reductions in the financial support for each deficit, unsustainable spending, the most leveraged banks, student at university. Instead, we have been able to the biggest housing boom, unsustainable levels of personal maintain our commitment to 10,000 extra places at debt and personal saving negative—almost unprecedented university and urge universities, with requirements to in any advanced western country. That is the mess that back this up, to focus on the employability skills of their they left us. That is what we have to sort out. Already, students. When people emerge from university, they working with the Secretary of State, we are putting in should have had practical experience of the world of place a growth strategy to emerge from the mess. work already. So we are focusing on skills and universities My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was one as well. of the most eloquent and effective people in warning We are protecting the budget for science and research about the mess that Labour was making of our economic and enabling important capital projects to go ahead, situation. He warned about the level of debt. He was such as the UK centre for medical research and innovation quite right to do so. Now, the present Government must at King’s Cross. We are taking practical steps to ensure tackle it. It was those on the Labour Benches who left that we can enjoy the benefits of our excellent research the patient dangerously ill. Now they complain as we, effort—speeding up the process of getting a patent and sadly, have to deliver the treatment. intellectual property protection, which can be too slow. Question put, Yes, we are backing research and development, and we are backing the technological application of that by The House divided: Ayes 245, Noes 323. encouraging our new technology innovation centres. Division No. 187] [3.59 pm It was a great disappointment when we had the news from Pfizer. I met the global chief executive officer and AYES the UK chief executive of Pfizer on Monday 24 January, Abrahams, Debbie Clwyd, rh Ann when they informed us in strict confidence of their Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Coaker, Vernon intention to close the Sandwich plant. We did, of course, Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Coffey, Ann press them on their decision. They made it clear that it Alexander, Heidi Connarty, Michael was a decision based on global strategic considerations Ali, Rushanara Cooper, Rosie by the company as a whole, as it moved away from some Anderson, Mr David Cooper, rh Yvette of the lines of research in which Sandwich specialised. Austin, Ian Corbyn, Jeremy Bailey, Mr Adrian Crausby, Mr David They made it clear that it was not because of any Bain, Mr William Creagh, Mary disagreement that they had with this Government’s Balls, rh Ed Creasy, Stella economic policies. Banks, Gordon Cruddas, Jon Since then we have been in close contact with Pfizer. I Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cryer, John have asked Paul Carter, the leader of Kent county Bayley, Hugh Cunningham, Alex council, to lead a local task force on the matter. The Beckett, rh Margaret Cunningham, Mr Jim Secretary of State and I will be working hard to try to Begg, Dame Anne Cunningham, Tony find innovative alternative uses for that excellent research Bell, Sir Stuart Curran, Margaret facility and to back the very skilled people there. Benn, rh Hilary Dakin, Nic Benton, Mr Joe Danczuk, Simon We are doing all this against the background of a Berger, Luciana Darling, rh Mr Alistair serious financial crisis left for us by the previous Labour Betts, Mr Clive David, Mr Wayne Government. The shadow Secretary of State, the right Blackman-Woods, Roberta Davidson, Mr Ian hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham), Blenkinsop, Tom Davies, Geraint said, “There are no deficit deniers” on the Opposition Blomfield, Paul De Piero, Gloria Front Bench. He was able to say that only because the Blunkett, rh Mr David Denham, rh Mr John shadow Chancellor was not sitting beside him at the Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dobbin, Jim time. We know that deficit denial is one of the fundamental Brown, rh Mr Gordon Dobson, rh Frank problems that the Labour Opposition face if they are Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Docherty, Thomas ever to become a credible party of government again. Brown, Mr Russell Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Bryant, Chris Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Although the shadow Secretary of State said that he Buck, Ms Karen Donohoe, Mr Brian H. was not a deficit denier, he went on to say that the large Burden, Richard Doran, Mr Frank deficit had arisen because of the banking crisis. Britain Byrne, rh Mr Liam Dowd, Jim was running one of the worst structural deficits of any Cairns, David Doyle, Gemma advanced western country before the banking crisis. Campbell, Mr Alan Dromey, Jack One of the tests of whether people recognise the seriousness Campbell, Mr Ronnie Dugher, Michael of the challenge that they face is their willingness to Caton, Martin Durkan, Mark accept that that was the problem. If they do not accept Chapman, Mrs Jenny Eagle, Ms Angela that that is the problem, they are deficit deniers. It is as Clark, Katy Eagle, Maria simple as that. Clarke, rh Mr Tom Edwards, Jonathan 921 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 922 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) Efford, Clive Mahmood, Shabana Thornberry, Emily Wicks, rh Malcolm Elliott, Julie Mann, John Timms, rh Stephen Williams, Hywel Ellman, Mrs Louise Marsden, Mr Gordon Trickett, Jon Williamson, Chris Engel, Natascha McCabe, Steve Turner, Karl Winnick, Mr David Esterson, Bill McCann, Mr Michael Twigg, Derek Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Evans, Chris McCarthy, Kerry Twigg, Stephen Wishart, Pete Farrelly, Paul McDonagh, Siobhain Umunna, Mr Chuka Woodcock, John Field, rh Mr Frank McDonnell, John Vaz, rh Keith Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Fitzpatrick, Jim McFadden, rh Mr Pat Vaz, Valerie Wright, David Flello, Robert McGovern, Alison Walley, Joan Wright, Mr Iain Flint, rh Caroline McGovern, Jim Watts, Mr Dave Fovargue, Yvonne McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Weir, Mr Mike Tellers for the Ayes: Francis, Dr Hywel McKinnell, Catherine Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Mr David Hamilton and Gapes, Mike Meacher, rh Mr Michael Whitehead, Dr Alan Phil Wilson Gardiner, Barry Meale, Mr Alan Gilmore, Sheila Mearns, Ian NOES Glass, Pat Michael, rh Alun Glindon, Mrs Mary Miliband, rh David Adams, Nigel Cash, Mr William Goggins, rh Paul Miliband, rh Edward Aldous, Peter Chishti, Rehman Goodman, Helen Mitchell, Austin Amess, Mr David Chope, Mr Christopher Greatrex, Tom Morden, Jessica Andrew, Stuart Clappison, Mr James Green, Kate Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Clark, rh Greg Greenwood, Lilian Morris, Grahame M. Bacon, Mr Richard Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Griffith, Nia (Easington) Bagshawe, Ms Louise Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Gwynne, Andrew Mudie, Mr George Baker, Norman Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Mr Jim Baker, Steve Collins, Damian Hanson, rh Mr David Murphy, rh Paul Baldry, Tony Cox, Mr Geoffrey Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murray, Ian Baldwin, Harriett Crabb, Stephen Harris, Mr Tom Nandy, Lisa Barclay, Stephen Crockart, Mike Havard, Mr Dai Nash, Pamela Barker, Gregory Crouch, Tracey Healey, rh John O’Donnell, Fiona Baron, Mr John Davey, Mr Edward Hendrick, Mark Onwurah, Chi Bebb, Guto Davies, David T. C. Hepburn, Mr Stephen Osborne, Sandra Beith, rh Sir Alan (Monmouth) Hermon, Lady Owen, Albert Bellingham, Mr Henry Davies, Glyn Hillier, Meg Paisley, Ian Benyon, Richard Davies, Philip Hilling, Julie Pearce, Teresa Beresford, Sir Paul Davis, rh Mr David Hodge, rh Margaret Perkins, Toby Berry, Jake de Bois, Nick Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Phillipson, Bridget Bingham, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hoey, Kate Pound, Stephen Binley, Mr Brian Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hood, Mr Jim Qureshi, Yasmin Birtwistle, Gordon Dorries, Nadine Hopkins, Kelvin Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Blackman, Bob Doyle-Price, Jackie Howarth, rh Mr George Reed, Mr Jamie Blackwood, Nicola Drax, Richard Hunt, Tristram Reeves, Rachel Blunt, Mr Crispin Duddridge, James Irranca-Davies, Huw Reynolds, Emma Boles, Nick Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jackson, Glenda Reynolds, Jonathan Bone, Mr Peter Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain James, Mrs Siân C. Ritchie, Ms Margaret Bottomley, Sir Peter Dunne, Mr Philip Jamieson, Cathy Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Bradley, Karen Ellis, Michael Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Brady, Mr Graham Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Bray, Angie Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Brazier, Mr Julian Eustice, George Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris Bridgen, Andrew Evans, Graham Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Joan Brine, Mr Steve Evans, Jonathan Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Brokenshire, James Evennett, Mr David Jowell, rh Tessa Seabeck, Alison Brooke, Annette Fabricant, Michael Joyce, Eric Shannon, Jim Browne, Mr Jeremy Fallon, Michael Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sharma, Mr Virendra Bruce, Fiona Farron, Tim Keeley, Barbara Sheerman, Mr Barry Bruce, rh Malcolm Featherstone, Lynne Kendall, Liz Sheridan, Jim Buckland, Mr Robert Foster, rh Mr Don Khan, rh Sadiq Shuker, Gavin Burley, Mr Aidan Fox,rhDrLiam Lammy, rh Mr David Simpson, David Burns, Conor Francois, rh Mr Mark Lavery, Ian Singh, Mr Marsha Burns, Mr Simon Freeman, George Lazarowicz, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis Burrowes, Mr David Freer, Mike Leslie, Chris Slaughter, Mr Andy Burstow, Paul Fullbrook, Lorraine Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, rh Mr Andrew Burt, Alistair Gale, Mr Roger Lloyd, Tony Smith, Angela Burt, Lorely Garnier, Mr Edward Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Smith, Nick Byles, Dan Garnier, Mark Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Owen Cable, rh Vince Gauke, Mr David Lucas, Ian Soulsby, Sir Peter Cairns, Alun George, Andrew MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Spellar, rh Mr John Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gibb, Mr Nick MacShane, rh Mr Denis Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Gilbert, Stephen Mactaggart, Fiona Tami, Mark Carmichael, Neil Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Mahmood, Mr Khalid Thomas, Mr Gareth Carswell, Mr Douglas Glen, John 923 Department for Business, Innovation 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Department for Business, Innovation 924 and Skills (Performance) and Skills (Performance) Goldsmith, Zac Knight, rh Mr Greg Paice, rh Mr James Stewart, Rory Goodwill, Mr Robert Kwarteng, Kwasi Parish, Neil Streeter, Mr Gary Gove, rh Michael Lamb, Norman Patel, Priti Stride, Mel Graham, Richard Lancaster, Mark Paterson, rh Mr Owen Stuart, Mr Graham Grant, Mrs Helen Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pawsey, Mark Sturdy, Julian Gray, Mr James Latham, Pauline Penning, Mike Swales, Ian Grayling, rh Chris Laws, rh Mr David Percy, Andrew Swayne, Mr Desmond Green, Damian Leadsom, Andrea Perry, Claire Swinson, Jo Greening, Justine Lee, Jessica Phillips, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lee, Dr Phillip Pickles, rh Mr Eric Syms, Mr Robert Griffiths, Andrew Leech, Mr John Pincher, Christopher Tapsell, Sir Peter Gummer, Ben Lefroy, Jeremy Poulter, Dr Daniel Teather, Sarah Gyimah, Mr Sam Leigh, Mr Edward Pritchard, Mark Thurso, John Halfon, Robert Leslie, Charlotte Pugh, John Timpson, Mr Edward Hames, Duncan Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Raab, Mr Dominic Tomlinson, Justin Hammond, rh Mr Philip Lewis, Brandon Randall, rh Mr John Tredinnick, David Hammond, Stephen Lewis, Dr Julian Reckless, Mark Truss, Elizabeth Hancock, Matthew Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Redwood, rh Mr John Turner, Mr Andrew Hancock, Mr Mike Lidington, rh Mr David Rees-Mogg, Jacob Tyrie, Mr Andrew Harper, Mr Mark Lilley, rh Mr Peter Reevell, Simon Uppal, Paul Harrington, Richard Lopresti, Jack Reid, Mr Alan Vickers, Martin Harris, Rebecca Lord, Jonathan Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Hart, Simon Loughton, Tim Robertson, Hugh Walker, Mr Charles Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Lumley, Karen Robertson, Mr Laurence Walker, Mr Robin Hayes, Mr John Macleod, Mary Rogerson, Dan Wallace, Mr Ben Heald, Mr Oliver Main, Mrs Anne Rosindell, Andrew Walter, Mr Robert Heath, Mr David May, rh Mrs Theresa Rudd, Amber Ward, Mr David Heaton-Harris, Chris Maynard, Paul Ruffley, Mr David Watkinson, Angela Hemming, John McCartney, Karl Russell, Bob Weatherley, Mike Henderson, Gordon McIntosh, Miss Anne Rutley, David Webb, Steve Hendry, Charles McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Sanders, Mr Adrian Wharton, James Herbert, rh Nick McPartland, Stephen Sandys, Laura Wheeler, Heather Hinds, Damian McVey, Esther Scott, Mr Lee White, Chris Hoban, Mr Mark Menzies, Mark Selous, Andrew Whittaker, Craig Hollingbery, George Mercer, Patrick Shapps, rh Grant Whittingdale, Mr John Hollobone, Mr Philip Miller, Maria Sharma, Alok Wiggin, Bill Hopkins, Kris Mills, Nigel Shelbrooke, Alec Willetts, rh Mr David Horwood, Martin Milton, Anne Shepherd, Mr Richard Williams, Mr Mark Howell, John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Simmonds, Mark Williams, Roger Hughes, rh Simon Mordaunt, Penny Simpson, Mr Keith Williams, Stephen Huhne, rh Chris Morgan, Nicky Skidmore, Chris Williamson, Gavin Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Morris, Anne Marie Smith, Miss Chloe Willott, Jenny Huppert, Dr Julian Morris, James Smith, Henry Wilson, Mr Rob Hurd, Mr Nick Mowat, David Smith, Julian Wollaston, Dr Sarah Jackson, Mr Stewart Mulholland, Greg Smith, Sir Robert Wright, Jeremy James, Margot Mundell, rh David Soames, Nicholas Wright, Simon Javid, Sajid Munt, Tessa Soubry, Anna Yeo, Mr Tim Jenkin, Mr Bernard Murray, Sheryll Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Young, rh Sir George Johnson, Gareth Murrison, Dr Andrew Spencer, Mr Mark Zahawi, Nadhim Johnson, Joseph Neill, Robert Stephenson, Andrew Jones, Andrew Nokes, Caroline Stevenson, John Tellers for the Noes: Jones, Mr David Norman, Jesse Stewart, Bob Mark Hunter and Jones, Mr Marcus Nuttall, Mr David Stewart, Iain Mr Shailesh Vara Kawczynski, Daniel Ollerenshaw, Eric Kelly, Chris Opperman, Guy Question accordingly negatived. Kirby, Simon Ottaway, Richard 925 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 926

Public Forest Estate (England) on the transfer list. England’s forests were slipped into the Public Bodies Bill in the bonfire of the quangos. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Ihaveto However, she was seeking not a bonfire of the quangos, inform the House that Mr Speaker has selected the but the power to sell off all England’s forests. amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): If the hon. 4.13 pm Lady is so opposed to this Government taking the Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): I beg to move, powers in the Public Bodies Bill, why do the Labour-led Welsh Assembly Government want the same powers? That this House believes that the Government’s intention in the Public Bodies Bill to sell off up to 100 per cent. of England’s public forestry estate is fundamentally unsound; notes that over Mary Creagh: The right hon. Gentleman makes a 225,000 people have signed a petition against such a sell-off; point about the future—[Interruption.] My question recognises the valuable role that the Forestry Commission and back to him is what is happening to the future of England’s forests have made to increasing woodland biodiversity forestry in this country under his Government? If they and public access, with 40 million visits a year; further recognises take the heart out of the Forestry Commission model—take that the total subsidy to the Forestry Commission has reduced away what is happening in Scotland and Wales—they from 35 per cent. of income in 2003-04 to 14 per cent. of income will effectively destroy the system that has protected the in 2010-11; further notes that the value of the ecosystems services provided by England’s public forest estate is estimated to be £680 national forests for 100 years. million a year; notes that the value of such services could increase substantially in the future through the transition to a low carbon Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): My hon. Friend said economy as a carbon market emerges; notes that the public forest that England is on the march. Wales is on the march as estate has been retained in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland; well, going by the number of Welsh people who have and calls on the Government to rethink its decision on the sale of written in to safeguard England’s forests. However, they England’s public forest estate in order to protect it for future do not just visit those forests. To answer the Minister of generations. State, the Welsh Assembly Government want the powers The countryside is on the move against the Tory-led to safeguard Welsh forests against this very measure. Government’s plans to privatise England’s forests. People They fear that Welsh forests will be rolled into the Bill are furious about this environmental vandalism. The that has been mentioned. Government’s impact assessment shows us that it is economic madness, too. The Government are carrying Mary Creagh: The Public Bodies Bill, which was out a hatchet job that destroys the funding model which introduced in the Lords in October, gives the Government has protected England’s forests for nearly 100 years. If the power to sell the lot—1,500 woods and 258,000 hectares. the commercial timberlands are sold, the ancient woodlands It is the biggest change in England’s land ownership starve. The true value of England’s forests cannot be since the second world war. This is not the first time measured by the price that the Government will get that the Tories have sold England’s forests. After introducing from selling them. the Forestry Act 1981, they sold off 72,500 hectares in three years. Let their actions then stand as a warning to Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Will the hon. Lady us today. inform the House when she first discovered that the last Labour Government sold by stealth thousands of acres Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): I declare of forestry land? a passing interest: my wife was born in the Forest of Dean and my constituency town takes its name from Mary Creagh: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman the old Lyme forest along the Cheshire and Staffordshire has raised that issue, because we can put paid to the lies border. Does my hon. Friend agree that the strand that about it. Under the last Labour Government, there was links this policy with all the other policies for which a net sale of 4,000 hectares in England. We sold there is no public mandate is the pretence that debt and 9,000 hectares and bought 5,000 hectares. We expanded borrowing are worse than was expected before the election? community access to the forests. The money was recycled Does she agree that that is a pretence and that it does back into the forests, and did not go to the Treasury. not justify this further act of public vandalism?

Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): Will my hon. Mary Creagh: Absolutely; I am grateful to my hon. Friend confirm that the policy of the last Labour Friend for that point. Government involved selling off some woodland and Let us look at the maths. The Forestry Commission reinvesting the proceeds in areas such as mine to create costs each of us 30p a year. Our ancient trees, worshipped woodland in urban areas such as the Mersey forest? by our ancestors as a source of food, fuel and shelter, will go in this sale of the century. The Secretary of State Mary Creagh: I am delighted by my hon. Friend’s wants to finish a task that proved too much even for mention of the Mersey forest, where 1 million trees Mrs Thatcher. were planted in and around her constituency. How did the Government get this so wrong? Over the Mr Paice: How many acres of ancient trees? summer, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs rolled up her sleeves and took the axe Mary Creagh: The Minister asks how many acres of to her own Department. She cut the Department for ancient trees we have. The answer is that he does not Environment, Food and Rural Affairs by 30%—the know, because I met Forestry Commission officials this biggest cut of any spending Department. There are cuts morning, and they told me that the mapping tool that to flood defence schemes, and nature reserves are next the Government are using has excluded sites of special 927 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 928

[Mary Creagh] Ministers talk of conditions in leases, but if they lease land for 150 years, who will enforce the leases a century scientific interest. [Interruption.] The Minister should from now? The public forest estate makes up 18% of the perhaps talk to his staff a little more. I have been woodland in England but accounts for nearly half the talking to a lot of them, and I have not met a single one publicly accessible woodland. That tells us all that we who supports his plans. need to know about public access to private woodlands.

Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Does the (Lab): My hon. Friend refers to the countryside being hon. Lady think that the Woodland Trust and the on the march. Is she aware that in Islington South, National Trust will or will not be able to compete in where we have the smallest amount of green space in the free market to purchase important forests? the whole of England, I have had 323 letters on this issue? They are our trees too. Mary Creagh: The National Trust has come out this morning and said that the Government’s plans are Mary Creagh: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. absolutely no way to manage the public forest estate—I Perhaps I should have said that the country is on the do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has seen the march. news today—and the Woodland Trust has a big petition The Secretary of State did not reckon on the campaigns on its website saying, “Save our forests”. He needs to against these plans, both national and local, which have look at what they are saying. They will not pay their united people from across the political spectrum. Some members’ subscriptions to the Treasury to buy something 360,000 people have signed the “Save our Forests” that we already own. petition—the largest public protest since the Government were elected. Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): Literally hundreds of my constituents have written to me saying that Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Does something must be done to stop the sale. On Saturday my hon. Friend agree that Lloyd George, who set up week I am holding a public meeting to discuss— the Forestry Commission in the previous Tory-Liberal [Interruption.] The Minister of State may laugh, but we Government in 1919, would turn in his grave at the will be discussing how they can respond to his consultation. thought that this coalition was selling off England’s Will my hon. Friend come to York on that day to meet forests and leaving only Wales and Scotland to manage people and hear what they have to say? and own our public land and forests?

Mary Creagh: I am sure he would be spinning in his Mary Creagh: I thank my hon. Friend for that invitation. grave. I shall certainly make the journey to York to hear what his constituents have to say, and I hope that Ministers I turn to the consultation document that the Government go out and listen to what the country has to say on the published last week. I have read it, unlike many Government matter. Members, and it rewards reading. It raises more questions than it answers. There are a lot of warm words in it Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): about communities instead of the Forestry Commission The hon. Lady mentioned the Woodland Trust. Does managing forests, yet on page 33 there is a harsh reality: she agree with its chief executive, who told Radio 4 last “Any sale would be at the open market value”. week that: Forests currently sell for between £3,000 and £6,000 a “Public ownership is not delivering full protection…it is not as hectare. I will give way to any Government Member simple as saying that public ownership is better”? whose community can afford to compete with the private Does she agree that different forests need different types sector to buy up thousands of acres of woodland. [HON. of ownership structure? MEMBERS: “Come on!”] No takers?

Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con) rose— Mary Creagh: Different forests are already under different sorts of ownership—the public forest estate Mary Creagh: Oh, we have one! makes up 18% of England’s woodlands. The question is what the nation values and for what we are prepared to Dr Coffey: I thank the hon. Lady for her challenge. It pay. is not in my constituency, but the community did indeed come together to purchase Bradfield woods. Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Oxleas wood in my constituency is a sight of special scientific interest and Mary Creagh: My question is this: was it at full open has a great deal of biodiversity. It is small wonder that market value? That is the question to which we shall those on the Government Benches understand nothing return. about biodiversity, because under the previous Tory Page 13 of the consultation document contains more Government we came together and fought to save Oxley warm words about public access. However, although woods from a six-lane motorway that they wanted to the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, introduced build. We did not succeed by buying the woods, but by a Labour Government, provides pedestrian access to would it not be invidious if the only way to stop such 90% of the freehold area of the public forest estate, 20% development under this rotten coalition was people of the estate is leasehold, so CROW rights there depend subscribing to buy them? on the lease. The document warns: “So-called ‘higher rights’, such as cycling and horse riding, Mary Creagh: My hon. Friend makes a very interesting have not been dedicated.” point and brings us back to the question of money. 929 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 930

Who will pay to look after England’s forests? Page 17 Mary Creagh: That is a very interesting point and of the consultation document has many warm words on one that I was going to make later. As the hon. Lady has the English woodland grant scheme. It says that any raised it, however, I will address it now. All the timber is new owners could apply to create new woodlands and responsibly produced, but in an answer on 17 January, to care for existing ones. However, that document must the Minister of State said: be read in conjunction with a much more serious one—the “Certification under the UK Woodland Assurance Standard is impact assessment, page 39 of which states that payments voluntary and this will be a decision for the new owners of under the woodland grant scheme woodland…The consultation…will include proposals on how certification might be maintained.”—[Official Report, 17 January “may not be sufficient to secure the level of public goods currently 2011; Vol. 521, c. 471W.] provided on the PFE.” Mr Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): There Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): The are no car parking charges in the New Forest, but there hon. Lady makes some good points. Does she agree that are car parking charges in plenty of other Forestry this Government could learn lessons from the mistakes Commission forests. It is entirely a local matter. of the previous Government, of whom she was a member? Rigg wood in my constituency was sold off under the Mary Creagh: I am interested that the Prime Minister’s Labour Government, and as a result, public access has Parliamentary Private Secretary—who has been writing now been restricted. Would it be right for this Government some interesting blogs about strawberry jam and other to think carefully about how we protect public access to matters—is perhaps feeling the pressure from his local our forests, whether publicly owned or otherwise, given community on this issue—[Interruption.] Do wooden that her Government failed so badly? pips and strawberry jam ring any bells? That is a sign of someone who is under a great deal of pressure. One Mary Creagh: Let us go back to the numbers. We sold thing that we can guarantee the hon. Gentleman’s off 9,000 hectares and bought 5,000. The Government constituents is that if this sale goes ahead, they will be whom he supports—I am grateful that he is backing our paying for car parking. campaign on this issue—will sell off more land in the Several hon. Members rose— next year than the previous Labour Government sold off in 13 years, and they will do so without giving any Mary Creagh: I wish to make a little more progress, guarantees whatever on public access. Government and then I will give way. Members should think on that and reflect on the 40,000 hectares that are going in the sale of the century. Page 20 of the document talks about experience from other countries and cites the privatisation of forests in Page 18 of the consultation document states that Russia and central Africa, and the need to tailor our “significantly increasing woodland cover across the UK would be approach to the national context. I am still trying to a cost-effective way to help with both climate change mitigation work out—perhaps the Secretary of State will be able to and adaptation.” tell us in her speech—in what ways England’s national When I met Forestry Commission staff, they told me context is similar to that of Russia or the Democratic that they estimated that the future value of biomass Republic of Congo, whose economy has been shattered and wind power on the public forest estate could be as by seven years of war and where one in five children die much as £75 million a year. Perhaps Government before their fifth birthday—[Interruption.] It is a country Members can tell the House how the sell-off will increase that I have visited and about which I care a great deal. I tree planting if there are not enough grants to go care about the natural timber resources of the Congo around. and I know that the Government give money to protect I recently met free miners and verderers from the them, but the Congo is not the model that we should Forest of Dean. They told me that it costs £500,000 to use as an excuse for privatising our forests. look after their forest, and that it brings £100 million to Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Is the rural economy. They want their questions answered. not the point that many of us would be happy to chain Who will run the forest? What would happen if the ourselves to trees and forests, but not to the structure much-vaunted charitable trust collapses? How would and jobs of the Forestry Commission? their commoners’ rights be protected in any transfer? The New Forest costs the Forestry Commission £2.9 million Mary Creagh: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman to run. How will that money be raised in perpetuity? I has got against those dedicated public servants, but shall answer that question for the House: the money when I met them they were very concerned about the will be raised through increasing parking charges, by 270 jobs that will go instantly in the Forestry Commission closing toilets and by reducing spending on wildlife and about how woodland will be managed with 25% fewer management. That is not my view, but the view expressed staff. They were concerned about how national diseases, in the Forestry Commission’s staff consultation, which such as sudden oak death, will be managed and about was published today and which lays everything out for the loss of a critical mass of expertise from the Forestry us in black and white. Commission. The hon. Gentleman derides that concern as if it were all about jobs for the boys and girls. It is Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The Forestry not: those workers care about the forests, which is more Commission currently manages all our forests to the than can be said for the Conservatives. Forest Stewardship Council standard, which is well above the base legal level, and does so at a cost of Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ about 30p a year to each of us, which is a pretty good Co-op): I am glad that we are talking about the jobs of bargain. those who work for the Forestry Commission. Although 931 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 932

[Mark Lazarowicz] The Secretary of State told the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in November we are talking about forests in England, jobs throughout that she and her Ministers had already factored in the UK are at risk. There are several hundred staff at £74.5 million of sales under existing laws. However, she the former UK headquarters in Edinburgh, many of gave no guarantees that the money would flow back to whom live in my constituency and are very worried the Forestry Commission. Indeed she was at pains to about the future. They have told me that between 400 and point out that 600 jobs in Scotland depend on the link with the English “it would be perfectly possible for us to use the proceeds from Forestry Commission and they are very worried about sales of these assets towards increasing the capital available for the future because of the Government’s proposals. flood defences”. We need to step back a minute. She has cut the flood Mary Creagh: Yes, we risk a cross-infection of job defence budget by 27% and wants to sell off our forests losses across the Forestry Commission estate with these to make up the shortfall that she has imposed. That proposals. does not strike me as any way to run a Department. It is not only Forestry Commission staff who are Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): If the model worried. David Sulman, executive director of the UK that the hon. Lady is talking about is so impressive, Forest Products Association, called the proposals does she advocate using public money to purchase “a recipe for disaster. If these leasing plans go ahead, thousands private sector woods back into the public sector? of jobs in the forestry and forest products sector will be put in jeopardy; many businesses could be starved of their wood supply and would face closure as a consequence.” Mary Creagh: That is indeed what has happened. [Interruption.] Yes, it has happened in the past. Why There is no plan for rural jobs and growth here. the shock? Some people cannot manage the timber or The consultation is full of holes. The Government the forest. Forests cost money to run, so what the talk about the big society, but the Forestry Commission Forestry Commission does is advise the private sector and its communities are the big society. The Department’s on how best to manage them. I do not see any problem impact assessment shows that the costs will outweigh in that. the benefits. There is no mandate for this. The coalition agreement promised Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Surely “measures to…promote green spaces and wildlife corridors in what the thousands of people who are contacting MPs order to halt the loss of habitats and restore biodiversity.” about this matter are concerned about is not the public sector buying out private forests, but private developers How will these sales achieve that? preventing their families from using them, as the Secretary of State says her children were able to use them. Those Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): Does my developers will build golf courses, luxury chalets and hon. Friend have any idea what would happen to adventure parks on those forests. What is proposed is partnerships such as the Capital Woodlands project, an excuse for private developers to deprive everyone else. which cares for biodiversity and conservation in the urban areas of London? More than 300 of my constituents Mary Creagh: That is a good point, well made. from the inner city have written to express their concern about the wider issues that she has described, but also Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): People about those precious green spaces in the capital. care about our forests in this country. What we all want is a more diverse forest, with the old English oaks Mary Creagh: My right hon. Friend is right to raise alongside other trees, but that is very expensive to the issue of woodland in the capital, which is something achieve, so yes, I want a Forestry Commission that buys that the Labour Government sought to extend. Also, it more land and turns it into diverse forest. What we have is important that people living in cities have the enjoyment with commercial interests is a drive always to plant fir, of woodlands and access to forests. How do the sales to secure quick commercial returns. achieve that? What has happened to the Government’s woodland strategy? Mary Creagh: My hon. Friend raises a key point. Much of the timber stock that is now ready for felling is What role can a broken-up forest play in carbon being felled by the Forestry Commission, which is replanting capture and storage? The answer is on page 51 of the it with broadleaf native English oak, ash and beech. If closely-read impact assessment, which says: we sell off the timber stock, we lose the chance to “The co-ordinated approach to implementing adaptation measures change the shape and structure of the forests. Next year, across the public forest estate would be put at risk through with the sale of 10,000 hectares, this Government will large-scale changes in ownership.” sell more in one year than Labour sold in 13 years in However, we need to step back from the Public Bodies government, and they will do the same for each of the Bill and the full sell-off and look at what is happening following years. The holdings could include sites in in England’s forests right now. Ministers can sell off national parks—I hope that Members from Exmoor are 15% of English woodland without any change to the listening—community forests, areas of outstanding natural law. [Interruption.] The Under-Secretary says from a beauty, or sites of special scientific interest. seated position that that is why we did it. I have already explained how much was sold under the Labour Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): I hope Government; I want now to come to what will be sold that the hon. Lady will not seek to mislead either the by him. In our 13 years in government, we sold just House or the nation. Does she not accept that we have 4,000 hectares net, reinvesting the proceeds into forestry. one of the toughest regulatory regimes in the world? It 933 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 934 is not possible to fell a mature tree in this country Those are not my words; that was a press release from without a felling licence, and part of the conditions for the current Chief Secretary to the Treasury in January such a licence is nearly always that a new tree must be 2009, when a similar plan was proposed by the Scottish planted, and very often a broadleaf tree. Government. I do not see the right hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Danny Mary Creagh: The hon. Gentleman is quite right; and Alexander) in the Chamber today. who oversees felling licences? It is the Forestry Commission, which the Government are cutting by 25%. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I should like to draw my hon. Friend’s attention to a quote: Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): “Liberal Democrats believe that the SNP are in a real way Does it not surprise my hon. Friend that the Government threatening to destroy rural Scotland through this hugely flawed appear to have made no mention of our much-loved proposal and are prepared to sell off the family silver for what national parks in relation to this issue, despite the fact amounts to a very small, one off sum of money.” that some of our best forestry land, including Grizedale Will she join me and the Liberal Democrats in their and the New Forest, is in national parks? “Save our Forests!” campaign?

Mary Creagh: My hon. Friend makes an interesting Mary Creagh: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. I think that the reason is that the Government point. For some reason, the photograph of the Chief are planning the transfer of nature reserves away from Secretary to the Treasury with a “Save our Forests!” Natural England, and planning changes to the governance sign has disappeared from the Liberal Democrats’ website. of the national parks. Those changes are coming down If anyone can find it, please will they e-mail it to me? the tracks, and those on the Government Benches would do well to heed them now so that they are not caught Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): Does my hon. napping next time. Friend share the anger of thousands of people across the country at the double-dealing of the Liberal Democrats, Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I want to raise who say one thing in their campaign leaflets and their the issue of the public perception of the plans, and to pictures, but do the opposite in government? Is it not read out what my constituent, Lindsey Page, has told the case that, on this issue, they cannot see the wood for me. She says: the fees? “I have heard the argument that if a forest area is sold off then there will be safeguards written into the contract of sale that Mary Creagh: My hon. Friend is taking all my lines. should safeguard the access, but I don’t believe such contracts are How can the Liberal Democrats fight forestry sell-offs enforceable.” in Scotland, yet vote for them here in the Lobby tonight? Does not that go to the heart of the matter? The public We can answer that question: they are just doing on the have no faith that there will be adequate safeguards. national stage what they have always done on the local stage. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Interventions need to be brief. Mr Paice: When the hon. Lady provides the House with quotes, it would be useful if she properly attributed Mary Creagh: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. them in the context of the events that they addressed. My hon. Friend’s point goes to the heart of the She referred to the current Chief Secretary to the Treasury, matter. The only legally enforceable rights are public but is she not aware that what he said was in response to access rights guaranteed under the Countryside and the then Scottish Government’s proposals? Is she not Rights of Way Act 2000. The introduction of further aware that we are proposing not 75-year leases, but “higher rights”would require changes to primary legislation. 150-year leases? Most importantly, is she not aware that [Interruption.] Who will enforce the leases in 150 years’ under the Scottish national land use scheme— time? It is certain that none of us will be around to [Interruption.] remember this debate at that time. Who will benefit from the sales? The Confederation Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. of Forest Industries’ website says that the price of Minister, you must be brief. I think we have got the commercial forests rose point. “138% since 2002, which equates to a 17% average annual growth over the period”. Mr Paice rose—[Interruption.] So the forests that the Tories sold off in the 1980s and Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. ’90s have trebled or quadrupled in value. Where is the public benefit from those increased land values? There Mr Paice rose— is none. Forestry land is exempt from inheritance tax after two years, and timber sales have no income tax or Madam Deputy Speaker: Minister, you will resume capital gains tax. When we sell our forests, the taxpayer your seat now. Thank you. I am on my feet and I have loses many times over. already said that interventions must be brief. That applies “Private companies buying 75-year rights to woodland would to everyone, including Front-Bench Members. This is a naturally seek to maximise returns from timber extraction”— very important debate and many Members wish to [Interruption.] The Minister should allow me to finish contribute to it. my quote before chuntering; I think that he is going to like it: Mary Creagh: I missed some of what the Minister “There is no sign that the consequences for conservation, said, but I do not understand how his offering leases of recreation and tourism have been properly weighed up in these 150 years is somehow better than the Scottish Government plans. The Government is using ‘slash and burn’ tactics”. offering a 75-year lease. 935 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 936

[Mary Creagh] protections for public access and other public benefits by replacing the freehold sales that took place under the We in the Labour party are proud of our record on last Government and moving instead to leaseholds that forestry. We gave people the right to roam; we established provide better protection for access and other public two national parks; we replanted coalfield sites and benefits. landfill sites; and we brought trees closer to cities for all to enjoy. We planted 2 million trees in Warrington, Several hon. Members rose— 2 million in St Helens and 1 million each in Ellesmere Port, Moseley and Wigan. Mrs Spelman: I will give way, but I have listened to a The United Nations has announced 2011 as the lot of myths, so let me set the record straight first. international year of forestry. The Government have Thirdly, we propose to give community groups and chosen a very strange way of marking it. The countryside civic organisations the opportunity to own or manage is walking, cycling and riding against this Government’s their local forests if they wish—and why should they plans to privatise England’s forests. People are furious not have this opportunity? Fourthly, we are opening up at this environmental vandalism. We plant a tree to the commercial functions of the Forestry Commission remember our loved ones, to mark an event, to leave a to other operators on a leasehold basis so that their gift for those who come after us. The Forestry Commission commercial potential is realised alongside the need to costs each of us 30p a year. That is 30p to preserve our protect public benefits. shared history, our cherished ancient oaks, ash and beech—sold for 30 pieces of silver! The Government’s Angela Smith rose— plans will destroy the funding model that has protected England’s forests for nearly 100 years. If we sell the Hugh Bayley rose— commercial timber lands, we starve the ancient woodlands. That is the simple equation and the fundamental fallacy Mrs Spelman: I will give way in a minute. at the heart of the Government’s proposals. The true Fifthly, we are refocusing the work of the Forestry value of our forests will never be reflected in the price Commission so that rather than devoting expertise and the Government get from selling them. resources to commercial activities that should not be performed by Government, it can focus on conducting 4.47 pm research on combating the challenges of new tree diseases, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and maintaining and enforcing access rights, providing expert Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): I beg to move an advice, giving grants, and discharging its duty as a amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of regulator. the Question and add: Angela Smith: Will the right hon. Lady add to that “deplores the actions of the previous administration in selling off 25,000 acres of public forestry estate with wholly inadequate list of facts an agreement on the part of the Government protections; notes that the previous administration sought to go to guarantee the current permissive access provisions even further in finding ways to exploit the forestry estate for granted by the Forestry Commission on its lands? commercial gain as recently as 2009; welcomes the consultation proposals to guarantee the future protection of heritage forests by Mrs Spelman: Permissive rights apply to 2,000 hectares offering them charitable trust status; supports the consultation of the public forest estate, which itself accounts for proposals for robust access and public benefit conditions that will 18% of the woodland cover of the country. be put in place through lease conditions, including access rights for cyclists and horse-riders; believes the leasehold conditions regarding biodiversity and wildlife conservation will safeguard Hugh Bayley: Talking of facts, I have here a parliamentary significant important environmental benefits; sees these proposals answer given to me by a former forests Minister in 1996. as important in resolving the conflict of interest whereby the It records that under the previous Conservative Government Forestry Commission is the regulator of the timber sector whilst 209,956 hectares of Forestry Commission land were being the largest operator in the England timber market; considers sold. What proportion of that retained public access, that debate on the future of the forest estate ought to be conducted what proportion went to community trusts, and what on the basis of the facts of the Government’s proposals; and proportion of the new sales will go to such trusts? believes that under these proposals people will continue to enjoy the access and benefits they currently have from the woodlands of England.” Mrs Spelman: In 1996 I was not a Member of Parliament. Clearly, the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) I am dealing with a new policy, and that, it seems, is has not read our consultation document. For example, what Opposition Members are opposing. sites of special scientific interest are included, and there What is most saddening about the debate is that were many other inaccuracies in her speech. At least we rather than setting out her reasons for opposing our now have an opportunity to nail some of myths that measures, the hon. Member for Wakefield insisted on have been peddled on this issue. Of course it is an sowing further misinformation and fear about what we important function of Her Majesty’s Opposition to are consulting on. hold the Government to account, but they should do so on the basis of facts, not fiction. Let us start, then, with Several hon. Members rose— some plain facts about our proposals. First, we are consulting on proposals to create a new Mrs Spelman: I will give way in a minute. heritage forest status, whereby our most precious national The hon. Lady claimed that we were planning to sell assets are given over to charitable trusts, giving them far the forests for short-term gain. In fact, we are proposing greater protection and financial security than they have to end the last Government’s policy of selling land and ever had. Secondly, we propose to uprate massively replace it with a leasing policy, specifically to secure 937 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 938 access to rights for all—including horse riders, cyclists Mrs Spelman: I have made it very clear that this is a and other recreational users. The hon. Lady claimed genuine consultation. It is written in an open manner that that was environmental vandalism. In fact, we are and does not contain leading questions. It invites the introducing more environmental safeguards than existed hon. Gentleman’s community—his local groups and before. We are providing a once-in-a-generation opportunity community groups—to have, for the first time, an to accelerate the recovery of plantations on ancient opportunity to be involved in the ownership of the woodland sites, and enforcing replanting in other woodlands. I suggest that he talks to them about that. woodlands. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: Will my right hon. Friend Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Will the Secretary of give a guarantee this afternoon that any sale or lease State give way? will have cast-iron legal safeguards for all existing rights of way? Will she go further than that by publishing Mrs Spelman: In a minute. what those rights of way are before a lease or sale takes The Forestry Commission was previously commended place, so that local groups will know for evermore what for the restoration of ancient woodland sites. It pledged rights they have over their forests? to restore 20,000 hectares of plantations on such sites; it has managed to restore just 2,000 hectares. I have a Mrs Spelman: I am very happy to give my hon. greater ambition in regard to the restoration and Friend that assurance, because we live in age of transparency enhancement of biodiversity than the last Government and that is what community groups have every right to ever entertained. expect.

Mr Sheerman: The right hon. Lady produced some Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Further to the point very well-crafted words in an earlier paragraph. She about a consultation, would my right hon. Friend care referred to an “opportunity” to acquire land. If there is to reassure the House that the Public Bodies Bill seeks a competition between a private buyer and a community to establish enabling powers, rather than duties, and interest, will preference be given to the community that that will fundamentally enshrine the opportunities buyer, or will it all be decided on the basis of price? proposed in the consultation, not force things through? Mrs Spelman: Oh, dear: yet another Opposition Member Mrs Spelman: I thank my hon. Friend for that has not actually read the consultation document, which intervention, because it is important to note that when states explicitly that the community will be given preference. we published the consultation document on 27 January Of course people must be given preference when it it was accompanied by a written ministerial statement. comes to the woodlands near which they live. If Members would like to read it in conjunction with Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Is it not clear from the the consultation document, they will find an assurance demeanour of Opposition Members that this is an on this point. We will introduce a general duty for Opposition knockabout day? Will my right hon. Friend Ministers confirm that there will be a three-month consultation “to have regard to the maintenance of public benefits when period? May we hope that during those three months exercising” Ministers will be prepared to listen to serious representations the forestry-related powers and the powers in the Public from people who have read the consultation paper and Bodies Bill. [Interruption.] I am sure that Labour Members will respond on the basis of facts rather than Opposition would be interested to know what those additional knockabout myths? powers of protection are, as they have been making a lot of noise about this. Mrs Spelman: As always, my hon. Friend makes a Secondly, the statement mentions sensible intervention, pointing out that we are still in “exempting the most iconic heritage forests from the full range of the first week of a 12-week consultation. To be kind to options so that”— Labour Members, a lot of their questions arise from reading media reports, and they would do well to read they— the consultation document. “could only be transferred to a charitable organisation or remain in public ownership”. —[Official Report, 27 January 2011; Vol. 522, The hon. Member for Wakefield claims that people c. 17WS.] are going to turn up at their local woods only to find them locked up and gated off. The case to which her That is far more protection than currently exists. If the party leader has consistently referred—that of Rigg Labour party would stop holding up the business in the wood—has also been mentioned in this debate, but in other place, we might get those amendments on the statute fact that wood was put up for sale by her Government book. in April 2010. So perhaps she would like to go to Imagine my surprise, then, when I read this document— Grizedale to explain to the people of Rigg wood what “Operational Efficiency Programme: Asset Portfolio”, happened as a result of what her Government did. We, which was published by the previous Government just on the other hand, will be guaranteeing access and months before the election—and discovered, on page 54, public benefit rights through the terms of the leases. an explicit reference to the case for the “long-term lease” of the public forestry estate. What about this John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I document—the “Operational Efficiency Programme: final believe that many people have read the consultation report”? It states clearly that “greater commercial benefit” document and have understood the Government’s proposal. could be obtained from the public forest estate. And Taking the Government at face value on this consultation, what about this document—“A Strategy for England’s if a vast majority of people oppose this proposal, will Trees, Woods and Forests”—published by none other the Government accede to their wishes? than the right hon. Member for South Shields (David 939 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 940

[Mrs Spelman] Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): Is my right hon. Friend aware that a similar approach to hers on Miliband) when he was the Environment Secretary? It commercial forests has been extremely successful in New makes the case for local communities actively participating Zealand? The huge Kaingaroa forest—717,000 acres—is in the ownership and management of the public forest now out of Government hands, the land belongs to the estate. Does that not lay completely bare the hypocrisy Maoris and commercial organisations are doing the of the position now being taken by the Opposition? trees, with enhanced biodiversity. Their synthetic outrage cannot disguise the fact that they already had the public forest estate well and truly Mrs Spelman: My hon. Friend’s helpful intervention in their sights, so let us have no more of this self-righteous gives me the opportunity to advise Labour Members indignation. that, while the hon. Member for Wakefield made selective choices of countries that have explored other models of Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Will the right ownership and management that involve their local hon. Lady acknowledge that those options were ruled communities, the largest worked examples in the out of consideration and dismissed? They were dismissed consultation document pertain to Queensland and to for two very good reasons—first, because they did not New Zealand. add up economically or against cost-benefit analysis, and secondly, because they would not have been accepted Several hon. Members rose— by the great British public.

Mrs Spelman: And the hon. Gentleman’s party was Mrs Spelman: I would like to make progress. not accepted by the great British public as being fit to Now we have some of the facts on the record, perhaps govern this country for the time being. we can have a rather more honest debate about the consultation. Let us recall why the Forestry Commission Tim Farron: Taking my right hon. Friend back to came about. It was established after the first world war Rigg wood and giving reassurance to local populations, to reduce our reliance on imported timber. Timber was our experience with the sale of Rigg wood makes us vital—for example, as pit props—at a time when state extremely nervous about the lack of clarity about whether ownership was the orthodoxy. It was felt that state forests within national parks such as the Lake District supply of timber was essential. At the time, timber count as heritage woodland. Will she agree that national covered just 5% of the land under the public forest park woodlands should all be considered as heritage, estate, and even over the long period in which the and should not be leased or sold? Forestry Commission has been in operation, that has increased to only 8%. Mrs Spelman: The consultation document sets out Ninety years later, things have changed. The Forestry different categories of forest and woodland, because the Commission still has a role of supplying timber to public forest estate is very diverse. The Forestry Commission industry, but the reality is that it accounts for less than has published a set of criteria in relation to sales. There 5% of the timber used in England. To be clear, the state is a consultation and I suggest that the hon. Gentleman is running timber supplies, yet 95% of the timber used is should make representations as part of that consultation from outside England. That cannot be sustainable. about the category he wants included under the definition of heritage. On top of that, the public forest estate in England operated at a net loss of £16 million last year. If we are Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): As the right hon. Lady will to carry on maintaining our forests as we currently know, I have been very disappointed that some 100,000 do—and in fact improve them, which is what we want acres is not covered by the consultation that started last to do, so that they have greater biodiversity and Thursday. Will she guarantee for my constituents that environmental value—we need to think about better the land for sale or lease in that 100,000 acres will be ways of doing this and invite other organisations to subject to absolute guarantees on protecting and enhancing come in and look at how we can put it on a better biodiversity, on maintaining, protecting and improving footing. That, frankly, is no bad thing, not least because public access for recreation and leisure, on ensuring the the lease terms will secure access and benefits. Does it continued and increasing role of woodlands in climate really have to be the state’s role to sell Christmas trees? I change mitigation— know that the Opposition have taken a lurch to the left, but are they really suggesting that supplying Christmas Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. trees, hosting music concerts and running log cabins Goodness me. I would like Members to make their should be national industries? interventions brief, and not take the opportunity of an intervention to make their speech. I call the Secretary of Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): Public State. consultations under the Labour Government used to be a complete and utter sham. Can my right hon. Friend Mrs Spelman: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I give us an assurance that, if the majority of respondents can assure the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) to the consultation express concerns about the policy, that there are statutory requirements for biodiversity. she will listen? Planned sales under the spending review—plans that are published—will have greater protection than was Mrs Spelman: Of course I can give my hon. Friend afforded under the previous Government. Our objective that assurance. I was very frustrated during 13 years in the amendment to the Public Bodies Bill is to make of opposition by the sham nature of Government sure that we increase protection for access and other consultations. Let us not forget that we are talking public benefits. about less than 18% of England’s woodland cover. 941 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 942

Members will know that the vast majority of our woodlands Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I was are not in state ownership, but are still offering outstanding interested to hear that my right hon. Friend said that no recreational and environmental value. Some are community organisation would be allowed to take over one of those woodlands. Some are held by organisations such as the forests unless it was capable of running it. She has National Trust. Some are held by charities. [Interruption.] heard already the figure of £2.9 million, which is the And yes, many are held by individuals, from farmers to deficit cost to the Forestry Commission from running philanthropists. In my view, Opposition scaremongering the New Forest. What sort of charity would be able to has been such that they owe a great many of those shoulder that deficit? people an apology for characterising them as being so disinterested in the public benefit. I can only say that I Mrs Spelman: I can give my hon. Friend the same am glad that I am not so cynical about society; it must assurance as I have given the National Trust, the Woodland be a very miserable approach to life. Trust and any new trust that would like to manage our heritage forests for us: we do not expect them to do it Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): Does for nothing. Let us look at the model of British Waterways. my right hon. Friend accept that the concern in all parts Our canal network is to be moved into the hands of a of the House and in all parts of the country is real? Will mutual trust. Obviously, the Government will continue she acknowledge that it is genuine concern? Will she providing running costs to that trust because we understand agree to meet with me and other Liberal Democrat that it cannot manage the network for nothing. Members to talk about those concerns? Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): The public Mrs Spelman: The concern has in large part been care about one thing. As a result of these plans, will whipped up on the back of ludicrous speculation in the public access be increased or reduced? media. I am confident that, when our constituents have the opportunity to read the consultation document, we Mrs Spelman: I think I have said this, but for the will have a much more meaningful discussion about the avoidance of doubt, public access and other public best way to protect our heritage, woodlands and forest, benefits will be improved and enhanced as a result of but of course I would be happy to meet the hon. the proposals that we set out in our consultation document. Gentleman. Having exposed the fact that the previous Government Some of the woodlands that we are discussing will be indeed looked at disposal of the public forest estate, I viable and some will not, but I can give the House this would like the Opposition to hear—[Interruption.] I would assurance: there will be no change in the status of like them all to listen. That would be a start. I would woodland sites unless we are convinced that the access like them to hear clearly why it is important to give right and public benefits have been protected, and that the opportunity for the heritage forests to pass into the those wanting to own or manage have the ability to do hands of charitable trusts. What we have seen from the so. We will not accept second best on that. evidence of documents from the previous Government is that the forests run the risk of successive Governments Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): The Secretary continually coming back to the question of how they of State said that there would be no transfer of woodland should be owned and managed. Putting them safely in unless the protections that she has just mentioned can the hands of charitable trusts, as we propose to do, will be put in place. Is she aware that not an hour ago, in mean that they will continue to be managed for the Committee Room 18, Simon Hodgson, chief executive benefit of the nation. Their enhanced status in the hands of the Forestry Commission, advised the all-party of charitable trusts will put them beyond the reach of parliamentary conservation and wildlife group that it Whitehall politics once and for all. would not be possible to insist that the same management regime conducted by the Forestry Commission to protect Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab): In practice, biodiversity would be passed on to any new owner? would not trusts and charitable organisations be absolutely crazy to take on the burden of the New forest, for example? How could they possibly expect to have the Mrs Spelman: Simon Hodgson is not the chief executive fundraising capacity to meet the ongoing costs of managing of the Forestry Commission, he is wrong and his fears it appropriately, particularly given the Government’s are misplaced. expectation, clearly stated in their consultation paper, The difference in expressions of interest is perfectly that such gifts to those organisations should move logical because of the diversity in our woodland. There towards self-reliance? They would be crazy to take that is no one-size-fits-all approach. We will look at what on in such circumstances. works best for each individual site. Our mixed model approach considers what works best for the different Mrs Spelman: The hon. Gentleman clearly was not woodlands and how we can apply it in a way that gives listening to the question asked by my hon. Friend the greater public benefit. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). We have Our proposals will mean that the nationally important made it clear that we would not expect charitable trusts heritage forests will continue to be managed for the to take these on without the running costs, so the hon. benefit of the nation. By pursuing charitable ownership Gentleman’s fear is unfounded. Some smaller, local for our most valued heritage sites—for example, the areas of woodland might fall into heritage status, but New Forest and the Forest of Dean—the Government for those that do not, we are consulting on whether to are making it clear that they are not for sale. They are offer them to local community groups or charities to secure for future generations to enjoy, and we will give take over first and foremost. If no local groups or that force of law with amendments to the Public Bodies Bill. charities want to take on the leasehold and no suitable 943 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 944

[Mrs Spelman] Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. My apologies to the hon. Gentleman. Before he starts, I buyer with a credible access and environmental protection thought it might be a good time to remind Members plan comes forward, the woodland will simply remain that, on this debate as well, there is a time limit of six in public ownership. minutes, and it is from now. So, Huw Irranca-Davies, As I have said, for sites that are predominantly you have six minutes from now. commercial in nature, we propose offering long leases with conditions attached. To be clear, there will be no Huw Irranca-Davies: A second start. Thank you Madam one-size-fits-all approach, no land grabs and no fire Deputy Speaker. sale. Instead, there will be a thoughtful, detailed, long-term When I was in the privileged position of being the programme of reviewing the estate, potentially over Minister for Marine and Natural Environment at the 10 years. There will be no rush; it is more important to Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, get this right. We will look at how to improve the rate of one thing stood out about DEFRA: all the staff, agencies, recovery of plantations on ancient woodland sites, thereby green organisations and third sector organisations believed enhancing biodiversity. that they were on a mission in terms of the natural We will look at how the Forestry Commission can environment. We created national parks, protected wildlife, work with communities to help them to bid for local tackled wildlife crime, worked internationally to protect woodlands and at how we can actively improve access biodiversity and we increased access to the countryside rights. I am thinking in particular of how we can access and the quality of our uplands and seas. We also looked resource improvements for people with disabilities. We after the forests and promoted more woodland coverage, will look at how we can enable groups who run woodlands making steady strides to increase our poor showing to draw down environmental grants in a way that the among European nations. Forestry Commission currently cannot. I do not honestly believe that anybody from DEFRA, Those are all things that the Forestry Commission, the Forestry Commission, Natural England or a host of with its expertise and dedication, is perfectly well placed other organisations, whose staff deeply care emotionally to do. It is where it will really add value. If Members and intellectually about our woodlands and our natural were to ask someone from the Forestry Commission environment, genuinely supports the policy. I do not whether they would rather be working with communities believe that the Minister’s heart is in it; that might be to help in the recovery of ancient woodland sites, or the same for the Secretary of State, truth to be told. I shrink-wrapping Christmas trees, what do they think am sure that the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, they would say? Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) does not support it. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Even if community Interestingly, however, the hon. Gentleman does not groups could afford to purchase woodland, why should have a say. He has most of my old responsibilities as a they if it is already in public ownership? It is rather like Minister for the environment, but with one hugely a thief stealing a car and then offering to sell it back. noticeable exception: forestry. Why? He still covers, as I did, everything else in the natural environment, but Mrs Spelman: As I have tried to point out, and as forestry has disappeared from the environment Minister’s evidenced in the documents prepared by the previous remit. That is no slur on his abilities, because he is no Government, the fact of the matter is that as long as fool, but it is telling that forestry has gone from the there are no opportunities for communities in respect of environment Minister’s portfolio. The message is quite the public forest estate, there is a risk in Whitehall simple: the forests and woodland, from the inception of politics. The point about giving the community that this Government, were downgraded in importance; they lives nearest the forest that opportunity is that they are were no longer part of the natural environment brief. the most likely to protect it in perpetuity. This is a really exciting opportunity for our woodlands. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for We share completely the desire of those who love to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): walk, cycle, ride, kayak or go ape in our woodlands. I I am very grateful to my predecessor for giving way. have children and know what a lifeline woodlands are in There is a very good reason why I do not have responsibility the long summer holidays. I am certainly not going to for forestry: I have some personal interests. I am happy deny others the respite that those woodlands gave me, to declare an interest now. My local village of Beenham not now and not for future generations. I want to see had a small piece of Forestry Commission land in whether we can improve on the status quo. I want many which my children and I bought small shares with the people to be engaged in the consultation, and I mean village as part of a community project. It is an absolute genuinely engaged by the facts, not the fiction. This is model, which we are trying to follow under the consultation an opportunity to do things better. If access rights, before us. public benefits and environmental protections are not the same or better, we will not make any changes. I Huw Irranca-Davies: That is a very useful clarification, believe that they can be better, that they should be which I accept. better and that the consultation points the way to The former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend making them better. the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), who is now shadow Leader of the House, was always clear 5.19 pm about the Forestry Commission. He and generations of senior Ministers with the same responsibility held jealously Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I do not know to public ownership of the forest estate, because that where to start. When I was in the position— was in the interests of the British people. Why? There 945 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 946 are 13 million tonnes of carbon stored in the trees, There is not enough time to say how the Government 22 million tonnes in the ground and more than 100 million are now trashing the hard-won policy launched only day visitors every year. Public access is protected under last year which brought together, for the first time ever, the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, and the carbon and climate change issues with biodiversity to forest estate is the largest provider of green space around improve the diversity of woodland habitats. There is the cities, including regeneration and growth areas such as issue of climate change alone. I quote from our public Merseyside, Manchester and the Thames Gateway, with service agreement 28—yes, we were the Government 3,500 hectares established over the 10 years to 2009 and who had binding targets for ancient woodlands and more potential to expand that green infrastructure. priority habitats—which said: Even then, only 10% of the population—notably, in “In the face of climate change, a successful strategy would disadvantaged areas—have access to any woodland within require a landscape-scale approach, joining up the highly fragmented 500 metres of home. We are still way below the EU ownership pattern into a shared endeavour”. average. The last and only other time this sell-off was contemplated was under John Major’s Conservative Bill Esterson: My hon. Friend mentions Merseyside, Government. Here we go again—back to the 1980s. If I and one of my constituents from Crosby, Kay Redmond, have not made the Government think again, the public backs up what he says about keeping the forests in surely will. public ownership “to maintain current access for the public and to protect the 5.27 pm diverse wildlife found in forests”. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Ogmore Huw Irranca-Davies: My hon. Friend’s constituent is (Huw Irranca-Davies), whom I had the privilege to absolutely right. The issue is about not only timber shadow in the previous Parliament. There are six forests production and public access, but about biodiversity and woods in the new constituency of Thirsk, Malton and locked-up carbon. It is about the 1.5 million tonnes and Filey—namely, Dalby, Cropton, Boltby, Kilburn of timber produced annually and sustainably; the woods, Newgate Bank and Silton forest. £1.1 billion of economic value for £17 million in operating I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of costs; the potential further restoration, which comes State on responding to this debate and on moving our with the Forestry Commission, of ancient woodlands; amendment. We are absolutely right to discuss ownership and the £100 million of partnership funding in the of the forests and woodlands at this time. One has to 10 years to 2009. It is also about the commercial ventures, consider the history, and the history that pertained in which were expanding, with the Caravan Club, Go Ape, 1919 and 1920 is not necessarily relevant in 2011. The forest concerts and the Forest Holidays company. In background then was that many of the trees and forests, addition, parliamentary funding for the Forestry particularly the fast-growing trees, had been decimated Commission dropped from 36% in 2003 to 24% in 2007. to build the trenches during the first world war. If that were not good enough, there was also potential for 200 MW of renewable wood fuel energy from managed My regret about the debate being called at this time is forests, hydro, geothermal, and, if Ministers were so that the consultation should have preceded the Second included, wind energy. I could go on and on. Reading of the Public Bodies Bill in this House, because then we would have had the legal base and context so All that is now at risk, despite reassurances from the that we knew precisely about the management and the Minister and the Secretary of State. Those sound to the access issues to which my right hon. Friend referred. I public—and to an old sceptic and former Minister like have a severe reservation that that Bill will remove, once me—like the reassuring words spoken at a deathbed, and for all, the right of this House and the other place because that is what this is. It is the funeral of the to scrutinise these issues over the next 10 years and publicly owned forestry estate. It is the death of the body thereafter. I hope that when my hon. Friend the Minister of expertise and co-ordination that lies within the Forestry responds to the debate, he will put my mind at rest on Commission. It is the killing off of jobs, skills and that point. knowledge. Most of the issues raised by people who have written Public access is at risk, too. The post-war Labour to me and by other Members relate to access. The Government brought in the National Parks and Access Woodland Trust has put it on the record that the issue is to the Countryside Act 1949. We introduced the right to not ownership, but how woodlands and forests are roam. Only recently, my right hon. Friend the Member managed. In preparing for today’s debate, I tried to find for Leeds Central designated the South Downs national out about the status of the forests and woods in my park, and I took through the provisions for the England constituency. I have not found that information on the coastal path in the Marine and Coastal Access Act Forestry Commission website, in the Library document 2009. Since this Government came in, we have seen or in the consultation. It would be helpful for Members soft-pedalling on the England coastal path, and now we who represent areas containing forests and woodlands, are seeing back-pedalling on access to our woodlands. and for the people who enjoy them to know the precise It does not even make economic sense, even by the status of those forests and woodlands. Otherwise, we Government’s own figures and the figures in the report will be queuing up to make our cases. mentioned by the Secretary of State. The cost in public goods lost far outweighs the benefits. The Treasury has Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): We all recognise not given thought to the fact that for every £100 million that this is only a consultation, but given the distinction of woodlands sold off, £40 million will be lost in inheritance between heritage forests and other forests, there is some or other taxes, as companies and individuals buy woodland nervousness about which forests count as heritage forests. as tax write-offs. Are they going to look after it? Does my hon. Friend agree that people want the reassurance 947 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 948

[Damian Hinds] constituency. Does she seriously think that there is any prospect at all of any private operator being prepared to that there will be no loss of access or amenity for give guarantees that it will deliver the same public walkers, cyclists and horse riders even in the forests that benefits, on flooding or other matters, that the Forestry do not count as heritage forests but that are an important Commission currently can? public amenity? Miss McIntosh: I take great heart from what the Miss McIntosh: I welcome my hon. Friend’s intervention, Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and but I would go further. I would like to know the precise Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury mechanism being proposed. If it could be achieved (Richard Benyon), said. There is a large private estate in through an amendment to the Public Bodies Bill, we the heart of Thirsk, Malton and Filey that makes many should agree to it now and it would remove many of investments for the public good and allows access. My the anxieties that we are debating this afternoon. If the concern is that I do not know the status of my area’s Minister responded on that point, it would progress the forests, so I do not know whether I should be arguing debate and allay many of my anxieties and those of my for heritage protection or another type of protection, hon. Friend’s constituents. but I want to keep an open mind on the question of ownership. I would like clarification on the written ministerial statement to which the Secretary of State referred. I end with a plea to the Minister. If the consultation It stated: is to be worth anything, the Government must listen to, and act on, the tone and content of the responses. “I am today publishing tightened criteria for those sales under the Forestry Commission’s programme to deliver £100 million in gross receipts during 2011-15.”—[Official Report, 27 January 5.36 pm 2011; Vol. 522, c. 17WS.] Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I begin by Does that relate to 85% or 100% of the sales? I would congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield like to explain to my constituents how the sums add up (Mary Creagh) on introducing the debate, because it is and what the exact financial figures will be. absolutely clear that the way in which Ministers I am surprised that in introducing the debate, the incorporated the power to sell the forests in the Public hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) did not Bodies Bill was designed to avoid parliamentary scrutiny. mention the role of woods, trees and forests in promoting Furthermore, the Bill was published before the consultation flood defences. The Forestry Commission is playing a document, which I suppose we can take to be part of flood defence role in the Pickering pilot scheme. It is the Maoist approach that the Government are now planting a number of trees that will create a carbon sink taking to the management of public business. and retain water, which will prevent Pickering from Hamsterley forest, in my constituency, is a Forestry being at risk of flooding in the future. Commission forest that has 200,000 visitors every year. It is the largest forest in County Durham and includes Hugh Bayley: The hon. Lady makes an extremely two sites of special scientific interest, Low Redford important point. However, if the Forestry Commission meadows and Frog Wood bog. A huge number of my is not there, does she think there will be the same constituents are concerned about what is going on, and investment in tree planting on Forestry Commission they are right to be concerned. land and private land to reduce flood risks? One of the most important points about people being able to visit forests is that it makes them a source of Miss McIntosh: I would put that question directly to economic regeneration. That is absolutely vital in many the Minister, as I have done before. I want an assurance parts of the country. People need access for physical that the Pickering project, if it is successful, will be the and spiritual restoration. What is the point of the Prime forerunner of many similar projects in areas such as Minister giving speeches on the importance of well-being mine across the country. I want an assurance today that when he denies people access to the sources of well-being? the trees will be planted and that the investment will be He said in November last year about well-being: made. The hon. Gentleman prompts the question of “I am excited about this because it’s one of those things you why we should rely on the state to make that investment. talk about in opposition, and people think ‘well of course, you We have moved a long way from the previous Government’s say these things in opposition, but when you get into government mistake of selling off the national treasure of Rigg you’ll never actually do anything about it’”. wood in the Lake district without guarantees of access, But the reality is on page 42 of the impact assessment the enjoyment of benefits and the continued biodiversity that the Secretary of State published last week, which for which we have called. states that the Government I should like assurances on the economics, including “did not see it necessary to carry out a Health and Wellbeing what the gross receipts will be, and on continuing access. Impact Test, because if access is reduced at preferred woodland it If, as the Woodland Trust states, ownership is not the is likely users would substitute their preferred woodland for another”. key, I should like to know what guarantees there can be In other words, “Your wood is closed, go to the one about how management and commercial interests will 60 miles away.” fund the commercial forests. In the case of heritage The main problem with what the Secretary of State is forests, I may be being very simple, but I should like to doing is that she does not seem to understand the know how the Government are going to fund investment importance of landscape in developing our national in the charitable funds that will run those forests. consciousness and identity. She has seriously misjudged the national mood. In his wonderful book “Landscape Sir Peter Soulsby: The hon. Lady has spoken about and Memory”, Simon Schama writes: some of the public benefits delivered by the Forestry “If the entire history of landscape is indeed just a mindless Commission, particularly with regard to flooding in her race towards a machine driven universe, uncomplicated by myth, 949 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 950 metaphor and allegory, where measurement not memory is the 5.42 pm absolute arbiter of value, then we are indeed trapped in the engine of our self-destruction.” Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I live just outside He illustrates that point with a poster from world war Wark in Northumberland, which is at the centre of two of somebody walking through the countryside, and three historic forests—Wark, Redesdale and the mighty the caption is, “Your Britain—fight for it now”. That is Kielder. That is barely to touch on the multiple other true today, as well. Do the Secretary of State and other forests in the area, such as Slaley or Sidwood. Kielder Ministers think it is an accident that Robin Hood has alone covers more than 250 square miles and is a truly such a hold over the imagination of the nation’s children? enchanting place. Without a shadow of a doubt, it is the Of course it is not. It is because every child knows what green lungs of the north-east and the heart and soul of eludes Ministers—that the forest is a place where we the Northumberland countryside. can be free. The Secretary of State evidently wants to Kielder is a very important local employer and one of take on the role of the sheriff of Nottingham. the region’s major tourist attractions, with more than Since 1500, the central argument on the true purpose 250,000 visitors a year. It is also home to several sites of of the nation’s forests has been the same. It is a question special scientific interest; it is one of the last bastions of of development or conservation. The Prime Minister is the red squirrel in England; it has species of birds from not the first to see the value of green photo opportunities. osprey to curlew; it has whiskered bats, otters and the Charles I was always sure to be painted under a spreading magnificent roe deer; and it has cycling and the observatory. oak tree. The similarity between them does not end I could go on. I might sound passionate about Kielder there; Charles I was the last king to sell the Forest of forest, but that is because it holds a special place in the Dean. The Prime Minister should reflect on what happened hearts of all who, like me, choose to call Northumberland to him after that. home.

Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): The Prime Ian Lavery: The hon. Gentleman says that Kielder Minister is the one who promised the north-east that forest is the green lungs of Northumberland, and it is the region would suffer more than most from Tory the jewel in the crown of the county. Does he share my policies. The Forestry Commission owns 67,000 hectares concerns that the proposals that the coalition Government of forest in the region, more than anywhere else in the are pushing forward will put Kielder forest in jeopardy? country. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government have abandoned the people of the north-east, and now Guy Opperman: I have some concerns and I need want to sell or give away their forest heritage and their assurances on them. The key one is public access. For play places? the reasons given by others, it is crucial that all public access is safeguarded permanently. With respect, that Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. could be a deal-breaker. Biodiversity and long-term Mr Cunningham, everybody quite rightly wants to environmental management are equally important, as intervene, but we have six minutes per speaker, and are jobs. This is not an area with a preponderance of every time someone makes an intervention, another other jobs. Above all, as we have all found through minute is added. All I am bothered about is getting as 500 e-mails each, people want a rethink, with all options many Members in as possible. If we are to have potentially on the table. That means that people need to interventions, they have to be short and very quick. be flexible.

Helen Goodman: I agree with my hon. Friend. I Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): My hon. Friend knows notice that the heritage forests, which are to be saved, Savernake forest in my constituency probably better are in the south of England, not the north. than I do, and we share a great concern about biodiversity People need forests for the physical, mental and spiritual and public access. Does he agree that in specifically freedom that they get from them, but the Treasury has making those issues the underpinning of the consultation succumbed to what used to be called political arithmeticians. process, along with other key variables, we are doing a Nothing has changed. A parliamentary committee of far better job to protect public woodlands than the last inquiry in 1763 was told in evidence that there would be Government, who sold off 25,000 acres with no a loss of hedgerows and a decline in the linnet population. consultation? It is perhaps not a coincidence that Trevelyan, the great historian, became a founder of the National Trust. His Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I did view was that not make a ruling from the Chair for it to be breached. “without access to wild nature the English would spiritually This is a very important issue to Members on both sides perish”. and many want to speak. I am therefore calling on Ministers and the Secretary of State to stop this fire sale. The hastily-put-together Guy Opperman: Each year, 475,000 cubic metres of retreat of selling the forests to community organisations timber are felled to supply local wood as fuel and to is utterly ludicrous. Why should people pay for what provide timber-intensive local businesses, such as Egger, they already own? The forest is a place for free spirits. which is the largest employer in Hexham. It has more Those spirits will not quenched by this pathetic, mean, than 400 employees. Kielder is a working forest, unashamed small-minded Government. The inestimable Teesdale of its clearings and felled areas which, while not always Mercury has launched a “Hands of Hamsterley”campaign. postcard pretty, are replanted to provide a continuous I am calling on everyone who cares to come to Hamsterley cycle on which much of the employment and way of life forest on 26 February for the ramble in aid of keeping and the whole ethos of the area are dependent. It is also Ministers’ hands off Hamsterley. the biggest employer in the north Tyne area. 951 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 952

[Guy Opperman] Nottinghamshire has nine Forestry Commission woodlands, including the east midlands’ largest tract of I have worked closely with Northumbria Water, which forest open to the public, Sherwood Pines forest park, is responsible for Kielder Water, the largest artificial which is just a few miles north of Nottingham. Sherwood lake in the UK. It sits at the heart of the forest. The Pines is a large mixed conifer and broad-leaf woodland development of these vast resources is already subject with open spaces, heathland and pond, providing space to a 25-year investment plan which has outdoor activities for timber production, wildlife and recreation. I have and all manner of other aspects of the environment at been a regular visitor to Sherwood Pines since my its heart. I find it hard to believe that that will be children were small, and in that time I have witnessed undeveloped and not taken forward, with a FTSE 100 the tremendous work that the Forestry Commission has company at the heart of the development. done to encourage local people to get out and enjoy our Fundamental to this issue is ongoing access to walkers, beautiful countryside. There is a new café and visitor’s cyclists, horse riders and a host of others. I hope that centre, children’s play areas, walking and cycling trails, these plans will see an additional £31 million boost to a mountain biking area, an adventure course with ropes the local economy, and several hundred new jobs in the and zip wires, and, away from the centre, miles of next 10 years in an area where employment is far from peaceful woodland habitat and wildlife to enjoy. The guaranteed. I have genuine concerns that all that will be forest is also used by many local schools, and the put at risk. I strongly urge the Minister to look closely education service at Sherwood Pines was one of the first at the proposals and to consider the many representations to be awarded a Learning Outside the Classroom quality that I have received from my constituents who share my badge. scepticism, and to reflect on the possible effect on this Sherwood Pines is well developed as a visitor attraction, special place at the heart of my constituency. so perhaps public access would be secure, but what of the local woods that so many people enjoy, such as Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Blidworth woods, Haywood oaks, Silverhill wood, Like my hon. Friend, I have had many constituents Boundary wood, Thieves wood, Oxclose wood and the expressing concerns about the Government’s plans and Birklands? The Government tell us not to worry. The the consultation. Does he agree that access and the Secretary of State says that public rights of way and maintenance of biodiversity are the crucial components, access will be unaffected, but can we trust this Government? and we should not have dishonest misrepresentation My constituent Dr Chris Edwards certainly does not, about the proposals? People deserve to be dealt with saying that he has honestly. I do not mind opportunism, but I cannot “no faith in the promises being made to preserve access…this is stand dishonesty— the government that’s broken every election promise it made”. This is the Government who promised to keep the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We education maintenance allowance and told us that there have heard quite enough. We need very short interventions. would be no more top-down reorganisations of the This debate will otherwise be very disappointing for NHS—a Government who include Ministers who signed constituents who are affected by the issue that we are pledges saying that they would scrap tuition fees, but discussing. Hon. Members should know better. then voted to treble them. I would say that their promises are not worth the paper that they are written on. Guy Opperman: I have yet to be satisfied that a good The Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 guarantees economic case has been made, and with so much at public access on foot, but as I have explained, the stake I await genuine satisfaction that it will be made. I Forestry Commission has done much more than that, will fight the specific clauses that are linked to this issue providing car parking, signage, visitor centres and leisure in the Public Bodies Bill. opportunities. The Government proposals contain no safeguards to guarantee that they will continue in the 5.49 pm future. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I have Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Is there not something been prompted to speak in today’s debate by the tremendous obscene about the sale of English woods and forests anxiety expressed by so many of my constituents about when the other regions of the United Kingdom—Scotland, the Government’s proposals. I know that this is not a Wales and Northern Ireland—have all decided to retain concern peculiar to residents in my city, but perhaps their forests, keeping rights of access and the right to Nottingham folk feel it even more keenly because they roam for ever? regard themselves as the descendants of our great hero Robin Hood, who made his home in nearby Sherwood forest. I was going to say that Robin’s hiding place, the Lilian Greenwood: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely 1,000-year-old Major oak in Sherwood forest country right: those are things that we should protect. We should park, is safe from the proposals, because it is in a seek to learn from countries that appreciate the value of national nature reserve managed by Nottinghamshire those public assets. Indeed, recent experience tells us county council and because even the council’s aptly that we are right to be wary. Rigg wood near Coniston named leader, Kay Cutts, would not dare to take her water was sold off last autumn. axe to our famous forest. However, I read earlier today that the Government are shortly to begin a consultation Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): By Labour. on divesting themselves of the country’s national nature reserves too, so, perhaps like many of our Forestry Lilian Greenwood: We should learn from things that Commission local woodlands, the Major oak’s future is we get wrong as well as from things that we get right. not secure either. Indeed, what happened at Rigg wood, where there are 953 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 954 padlocks on the car park, is why so many people—85% of surprised me is that the people who are the most vociferous the public, according to recent polls—want us to keep in their opposition to the proposals are the very same our woodlands in public hands. people who stood shoulder to shoulder with me and my Those people include my constituent Donna, who hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) works at a local country park, who said: as we campaigned against the New Forest being shoe- “I am quite shocked that the present government is planning to horned into a highly inappropriate structure in the sell off our land—land that we have a right to keep free and open national park. I hope that those critics will look at these for us all to enjoy”; proposals with an open mind and wonder whether they Carl, who has used forests all his life, who says: might just be looking a gift horse in the mouth. There might be an opportunity to rebalance the interests of “It grieves and horrifies me to hear that these beautiful places the forests that have been so shoddily disrupted by the are going to be sold off and ruined forever, so that future generations will no longer be able to enjoy them as I have, please creation of a national park. Within the Crown lands of don’t support this awful bill”; the New Forest, there are already many private lands and private commons. Indeed, the National Trust itself and Alison, another constituent, who described the owns two of the real gems: Hale Purlieu and the Bramshaw potential sell-off as Commons. The land is not all owned and managed by “devastating for the people of Nottinghamshire,” the Forestry Commission. adding: I pay tribute to the fine public servants among the “Families are already feeling the effects of cutbacks in terms of staff of the Forestry Commission who have been responsible affordable leisure activities for the whole family to enjoy”. for the stewardship of the New Forest, but we cannot Dozens and dozens of constituents have been in touch hide from the fact that there have been enormous problems. to express their concerns about the potential damage to The fact is that I have constantly had representations native woodland species, habitats and wildlife, and especially about the impact on ancient and ornamental woodlands, to our national treasures such as Grizedale forest, Kielder and on archaeological sites, of commercial forestry and the Forest of Dean, and to tell me their stories of operations. I have endured arguments about the impact using local forests and woodlands, week in and week of the campsites—and their increasing commercialisation out, for dog walking, orienteering, rambling and even —on the local communities and on the habitats. I have historical re-enactments. Others have talked about their also endured controversies—here is the humbug!—regarding passionate love of the outdoors, developed as a result of the disposal of New Forest properties under the last childhood visits to our local woodland. They recognise Administration, and I brought one of those cases to an that the Government have a duty to protect access to Adjournment debate in the House to raise the disgraceful areas of natural beauty and to ensure that these irreplaceable way in which that property was disposed of. I endured natural habitats and their wildlife can be enjoyed by the absolute furore when the Forestry Commission future generations. brought forward proposals to restrict dog walking in the New Forest. My hon. Friend and I were able to see Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Will the hon. off that threat. Lady give way? Keepers of the New Forest have beaten their way to my door to complain about the way in which the Lilian Greenwood: I will not give way to the hon. byelaws of the forest were being flouted and not enforced. Gentleman. He has not been here for the whole debate. I have also had complaints about the way in which the Today in New York, the United Nations is launching skills, the stature and the place of the keepers are being the international year of forests, which is described on diminished and downgraded. I do not lay any of these the UN website as “Celebrating Forests for People”. complaints and problems at the door of the management Our Government seem to be out of step not only with of the New Forest by the Forestry Commission in public opinion here but with the rest of the world. Some Queen’s house. However, the reality is that the Forestry things are too important to leave to the market. Our Commission is headquartered in Edinburgh, and those ancient woodlands should be for the whole nation, and who manage the New Forest report to Edinburgh. I kept safe for future generations, not sold off for a quick want to see an arrangement whereby we have much buck. more local control over the forest. Richard Graham: Will the hon. Lady give way? I offer a word of caution about the possibility of the National Trust stepping in. As I have said, it already Lilian Greenwood: I have already said that I will not manages part of the forest. I do not want another give way. national organisation with a national strategy and a national vision. The New Forest is unique and what I I hope that the consultation is genuine, and that the would like to see is something along the lines of what Government will rethink this deeply unpopular plan. we have in Queen’s house in Lyndhurst—perhaps even with exactly the same staff and personnel who currently 5.55 pm manage the forest there—but reporting not to a board Mr Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): I am in Edinburgh, but to a board in the New Forest representing an enthusiast of the Government’s policy, but given the the proper interests of the New Forest, and particularly brevity of the debate, I shall restrict my remarks entirely those of the people who have always safeguarded the to the opportunities for the New Forest that I see forest and been responsible for the law of the forest— in the proposals. I have received a large number of namely, the Verderers. communications, many of them very thoughtful, raising Such a board, however, could not possibly be the perfectly legitimate and proper concerns. I hope that the board of the national park authority, which has, by its consultation will address many of them. What has own choice, made itself a planning authority almost 955 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 956

[Mr Desmond Swayne] propose, the bulk of the work within Forest Enterprise will be sold off either to the private sector or to charities exclusively concerned with development control. It could and others. The expertise will therefore be cut off from play no part in this process, but I say again to my hon. the regulatory authority section of the Forestry Commission Friend the Member for New Forest East, and also to as well as from the research element. opponents, that there is an opportunity here for us that we would be foolish to pass up. Richard Graham: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but given that the debate is about the future of our forests, it is vital for Members in all parts of the House 6.1 pm to recognise that heritage forests such as the Forest of John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): It is Dean—which is next to my constituency—are not for difficult to follow that. Let me be as brief as possible. I sale, and that whatever the outcome of the consultation, commend the hon. Member for New Forest West access rights and biodiversity will be preserved for ever. (Mr Swayne) on referring to the staff of the Forestry Commission. It was a shame, however, that the Secretary John McDonnell: As I have said, we need to recognise of State never said a single word about the staff; indeed, that these forests have been preserved for us by staff it was more than a shame—it was a disgrace. The staff who have worked for us for generations over the last of the Forestry Commission are extremely loyal and century. In my view, failure to discuss the staff undermines they have built up expertise over time. the Government’s duty of care to those people who have served us so well. I chair the Public and Commercial Services trade union parliamentary group. I have a representation from the president of the PCS branch at the Forestry Mr Graham Stuart: Will the hon. Gentleman give Commission. It is worth our while listening to what he way? wanted Parliament to hear. He says that the staff “have spent their entire careers, a lot of them, in the FC and are John McDonnell: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me deeply traumatised at the prospect of losing their jobs.” to continue? Other Members wish to speak. The consultation document contains only one paragraph Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I very that deals with staff. It states that the Transfer of much endorse what the hon. Gentleman says about Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations Forestry Commission staff, but as a constituency MP, I will apply to the transfer of any of them. However, as have seen the Forestry Commission in Northumberland we know from other privatisations and sell-offs, TUPE shed good quality, experienced staff over many years, does not prevent a new employer from laying off staff in and whole villages that were built for forestry employees due course. It does not protect pay and terms and no longer have a single Forestry Commission employee conditions in the long term. living in them. Mr Stuart: Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point? John McDonnell: I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s point and I have shared his concerns over the years John McDonnell: No, I will not. as well. TUPE does not even protect pensions. There is nothing The PCS president continued: to prevent a new employer from laying off staff while “For many there is no prospect of picking up other work also undermining their conditions and pensions. I urge because the economy is in such a poor state that there simply isn’t the Government to address the issue of their future. work as all of the other public services also have to make When I looked at the impact assessment to see whether cuts…Staff in the FC are unique; they regard their jobs as vocational. They are amongst the most loyal and committed that there was any reference to it, I found that the only I have ever seen.” reference in the first seven pages related to redundancy costs. It reads as follows: Most of us would share that viewpoint and want it to be placed on the record. Where we have loyal staff, I “Transition costs of redundancy, TUPE and possible further believe they deserve some loyalty from us, as their professional fees have not been quantified.” employers, as well. That is repeated six times. It appears on each of the first seven pages of the document. The current position has been mentioned, but not as starkly as I am about to put it. The 25% cuts from the There are real anxieties among this group of expert comprehensive spending review mean that from a staff staff about their future. There are anxieties about a of 1,400, between 300 and 350 will lose their jobs. transfer to the voluntary sector. Most Members have About 29% of the cuts relate to Forest Enterprise, been involved with charities—most of us have served on which manages the estate. Already 256 jobs are notified their boards—and we know how difficult it is to maintain as being lost in that section. Moreover, in the Forestry a charity. In any charitable or voluntary organisation, Authority and Forest Research, at least 40 to 50 and about 30% of the time is spent on trying to find funds possibly more jobs will be lost as the 19% cuts takes for future years. place. The organisation is structured in those three elements: Forest Enterprise, Forestry Authority and Mr Sheerman: I chair a charitable trust, the John Forest Research. Expertise, however, has been built up Clare trust. We hoped to buy some woodland, but were in the whole organisation so that one feeds information told that the cost of managing woodland is 10 times the to the other and the expertise becomes interchangeable. purchase price. Managing woodland is very expensive, By breaking up the organisation, as the Government and charities will not be able to do it. 957 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 958

John McDonnell: When charities encounter difficulties made by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington in these circumstances, they will be forced to make (John McDonnell) about staff at the Forestry Commission, further savings like any other organisation, and the only which should be added to the consultation process. savings that they will be able to make will be secured by further staff cuts. The House must understand the Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): Does the hon. insecurities that exist among this group of people. I also Gentleman agree that people would take the consultation believe that the sell-off will degrade the overall expertise more seriously if it was a genuine debate about whether that has been built up over the last century, and that as a or not we take these forests out of public control, rather result the very management of the forests will be put than how we do that, as it is now? The public want this at risk. to be about “whether or not”, so that they could tell us The management met the staff and unions this morning. not to do this. People were dismayed; and yes, a number of union representatives have said that, if necessary, they will Mr Leech: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his resort to industrial action in an attempt to protect their intervention. I endorse this as a proper consultation, jobs. I believe that it would be the first occasion on and I hope that everyone who has an interest in this which industrial action had taken place in the Forestry issue will participate in it and put their views clearly on Commission. That should demonstrate to Members the the record. depth of the anger that exists about how these people I will never support the sell-off or leasing of woodland are being treated. They are being treated like chattels if I think that it will be detrimental to the long-term rather than as the staff who have been so loyal to us sustainability of the woodland and its biodiversity, and over the last century. will threaten the access that people have enjoyed over a 6.8 pm long period. What better safeguards will Minister’s introduce to protect the land and access to it compared Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I am with those that we already have? These forests will glad to have the opportunity to take part in the debate. outlive all of us in this Chamber today and the public Although my constituency may not be the most want to know how long these safeguards will be in directly affected by the proposals to sell off or lease place. Can I be assured that, whichever organisation woodland currently owned by the state, the issue has might take on the running of a public forest, these attracted considerable interest among hundreds of my safeguards will remain in place for not only our lifetime, constituents who are rightly concerned about the impact but centuries to come? that such a sale might have. There is little doubt that there has been much speculation, and even scaremongering, about what may or may not happen to public forests. I Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I have received more have received hundreds of e-mails from constituents, than 400 comments about these proposals, so I am keen some of whom have been led to believe that whole for the consultation exercise to go ahead. I am thinking swathes of woodland will be razed to the ground to of holding a meeting in my constituency to meet all make way for housing developments, golf courses and 400 contributors, because this is important. I wish to leisure clubs. raise the following questions: first, can I be absolutely sure that communities— John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): Will the hon. Gentleman or any of his colleagues emulate Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. his party’s president, the hon. Member for Westmorland Mr Carmichael, I have tried to tell everybody recently and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), in ripping up the Public that we want short interventions, because we want to Bodies Bill and voting with us this evening? get as many people in as possible. Indeed, people who Mr Leech: I am not sure whether to thank the hon. are speaking do not have to take the full six minutes or Gentleman for that intervention, but we are not voting interventions. on the Public Bodies Bill today; we are voting on an Opposition day motion. I shall go on to discuss how I Mr Leech: Guaranteeing the future of the woodland am going to vote. is important, but so, too, is the guardianship of that Other constituents have sent e-mails suggesting that land in the meantime. There is a real fear that the trend forests are going to be closed off to the public and to improve the forests will fade over time. What assurances surrounded by 10-foot fences, but that is clearly not the can the Minister give that the woodland will not just be case. Unfortunately, the Labour party has been complicit maintained as it is and that the new owners will be in this misinformation and shameless in its attempts to compelled to improve both access and the natural habitat? scare people into believing that the future of our forests The public estate enjoys 40 million visits a year, a is under threat. Instead of participating constructively quarter of it is dedicated as a site of special scientific in the consultation on the future of our woodland, interest and it hosts a wealth of biodiversity. None of Labour Members simply choose to try to score cheap those things should be under threat, and they must political points by tabling an Opposition day motion to flourish under this coalition Government. grab the headlines. That is why I certainly will not be One of the big unanswered questions is whether or voting for Labour’s motion and why I will support the not the private ownership or leasing of forest land will Government’s amendment, which exposes the disgraceful make the savings that the Government anticipate. I am sell-off of thousands of acres of public woodland by not convinced that these proposals will save any money; the previous Labour Government without any of the they may end up leaving the Government with a bigger protection being put in place and promised under the bill to maintain the forests, because the sale or lease of coalition Government’s consultation. However, I wish commercially attractive forests will mean that their to go on record as welcoming the measured comments revenue is no longer available to subsidise the running 959 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 960

[Mr Leech] This Government have surpassed Mrs Thatcher and are now selling the wood that built the furniture that was in of heritage and other loss-making forests. That was the the salon. In my view it is a grave error, for which there only sensible point made by the shadow Secretary of is no support or mandate. State. Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): Does Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I am my hon. Friend agree that Ministers simply have not sure that my hon. Friend will recall that a previous allayed the very real fears in this country and that we Conservative Government sold off the playing fields. need assurances from them that the consultation process This is phase two—selling off the trees and woodlands. is genuine and that decisions have not already been taken? Tristram Hunt: I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. The Conservatives have, as they say, previous Mr Leech: I do. One problem is the fact that the in this field. Opposition have tabled the motion at this stage rather than allowing the consultation to take place so that Since the announcement of this Opposition debate, people can have their say and a proper, sensible decision the internet and other social networking sources have can be made following the consultation. come alive with people hoping to save their local forests. Cannock Chase, near my constituency, now has a Facebook I do not think we should be too precious about the site with 2,500 supporters. A YouGov poll suggests that model of ownership of our forests. The previous 84% of people oppose the sale. The Secretary of State Government could not be trusted to safeguard the says that people simply do not understand the proposals future of the public forests that have been sold off in the and have been misled by the media, but we do understand past 13 years. It is certainly not the case that the forests the Government’s plans and we do not like them, because would be safer in Labour hands. Many might argue that they will limit public access. The hon. Member for the future of the forests would be more certain if they Manchester, Withington spoke about access being allowed were run and managed by organisations such as the to a forest in his constituency, but as my hon. Friend the Woodland Trust or the National Trust. It is not the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) says, that model of ownership that we should be precious about was because of principles and legislation that Labour but the people, including the staff, and the organisations put in place to make sure that access was preserved. that might run the forests. In my constituency, after the previous Labour Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Government closed my local hospital, Withington hospital, Cleveland) (Lab): The issue is not only the potential Paupers wood on that site was put up for sale. Like private ownership of woods, but the nationality of the many others, I expressed grave concerns about what private company that might own those woods. that might mean for the future of that relatively small piece of woodland. However, the sale of that land to one of my constituents, Mary, resulted in enormous Tristram Hunt: The matter becomes difficult when we benefit for the community. That area of woodland, think about where many of our trees have come from. I which had not been maintained for years and had been take my hon. Friend’s point, but the forests and woodlands inaccessible to local people, is now available for local have come into this country from many sources across community groups to enjoy and for schools to use for the world . outdoor classrooms. The woodland is well managed I shall touch briefly on something mentioned by my and is now sustainable for the future. That would not hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen have happened without that sale. It is not simply a Goodman): the forests and woodlands are a great matter case of public ownership being good and private with regard to our national identity. The Government ownership being bad. This debate should be about what are striking at something very particular to English is best for individual woodlands and communities and identity and British identity. In the 18th century the about securing the future of our forests for generations idea of the British heart of oak recurred on pub signs to come. and in pamphlets. It was a bulwark against Catholic absolutism. According to Simon Schama the very idea 6.17 pm of Britain, which was new in the late 18th century, was Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): It is a planted with acorns. In 1763 Roger Fisher—a disciple great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Manchester, of John Evelyn, the great 17th-century arboreal enthusiast Withington (Mr Leech), who, along with the hon. Member —published “Heart of Oak, The British Bulwark”, in for Hexham (Guy Opperman), has laid out some of the which he argued that empires rose or fell depending on problems confronting the Government’s proposals. It is the dearth of the sovereign hardwood. a source of legitimate confusion that a party whose new As Government Members have pointed out, this symbol is the oak tree is involved in this extraordinary Government are not the first to try to offload our sell-off of our forests. It was chosen as a symbol of the national forests. King Charles I, in the 1630s, tried to do Tories’ newly discovered environmentalism, belief in the same. Again, it was an attempt to limit public British strength and protection of our heritage, but that ownership: with the forests went the common lands, the all seems a long time ago now. moorlands and the wetlands of East Anglia. This is a The Government seem to have been taken by surprise tradition in Toryism that Opposition Members recognise at the outburst of concern about their proposals. I think and do not like. The point of this history is to suggest it was Harold Macmillan who said: that this is a shared inheritance, and we are particularly “First of all the Georgian silver goes. And then all that nice worried about access in the context of the Government’s furniture that used to be in the salon. Then the Canalettos go.” plans. 961 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 962

Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): What my I did not just go by an, as it were, self-selecting hon. Friend is saying is fascinating and excellent. Does sample like that. Nor did I just go by the self-selecting he recall that the Forestry Commission was established sample of people who have written a sheaf of letters to because of the loss of so much forest cover in this me, even though the balance is still dozens on one side country, designed to recreate the environment that had of the argument and not yet a single letter—the Whips been destroyed by previous generations and their greed? Office had better get cracking and find someone in my constituency so that I cannot say this again—in favour Tristram Hunt: Absolutely. I do not accept the idea of the Government’s proposals. No, I am afraid it is all that the state intervening in the control of forests is anti. somehow an evil. I regard it, in many situations, as a I did not rely even on those two samples, the small virtue. one and the larger one via the correspondence. I also Let me move on briefly to the situation facing Cannock spoke to one of the most senior figures in the New Chase, which is the woodland that my constituents in Forest, who has all the expertise that I freely confess I Stoke-on-Trent Central like to enjoy. We have heard lack. What he said to me was that everybody in the New Ministers provide special securities for the heritage forests, Forest who is involved in its administration in various but Cannock Chase does not fall into that particular types, capacities and dimensions is in a state of deep category. However, it contains precisely the kind of shock; that the status quo is unanimously preferred; forest that the Woodland Trust is most concerned about— and that, if there is a consultation, we had better hope that mixture of ancient habitat, conifer and recreation. that it is a genuine one, because then, on the basis of the Over the past few years the Forestry Commission has sampling that I am seeing so far, there will be an opened up access to it, with more and more enjoying it. overwhelming series of representations against what is The idea that local community groups will be able to proposed. compete at market value for the same amount of land is simply not credible. There is a lot of talk about community Neil Carmichael: What I would like to know is what groups having special provision, but history simply will happen to multi-purpose woods—those which are does not show that. When we look back at previous commercial, heritage and used for recreation. Conservative-led Governments, we see that hundreds of thousands of acres were sold off. Dr Lewis: My hon. Friend will find that I am coming The debate points to the core of the Government’s to that very point. There are two models according to notion of the big society, and there is a hole in the which the New Forest can be run. There is the old middle of it as large as that in which King Charles II hid model, with many sources of power intermixing, interacting from the forces of republicanism. It will take investment—a and influencing each other, and there is the overarching belief in social capital and in capacity—if those community model, with some authority in place to which everything groups are to be built up to manage our woodlands. else is subservient. My dear and hon. Friend the Member Nothing in the consultation or the Public Bodies Bill for New Forest West (Mr Swayne) was right when he suggests that that is anywhere near the mind of this said that we stood shoulder to shoulder to battle against Government. the national park authority being imposed on us, because 6.24 pm we felt that that was an overarching model rather than an interacting model of different organisations. Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): At the end of that classic film, “It’s a Wonderful Life”, the James That is where I fear my Front-Bench team has lost its Stewart character is taken back to see what would have way. It is not as if the Forestry Commission has, or ever happened to his home town, Bedford Falls, if he had has had, overall control. The Forestry Commission is never lived. He discovers that it would have been cheapened, one of a number of bodies in this universe, along with commercialised and degraded. Indeed, even its name the verderers, the New Forest Commoners Defence would have been changed to Pottersville after the greedy Association, and voluntary bodies such as the New grasping capitalist who was the villain of the film. I Forest Association, all of which have to work together know that no one would wish to see any such fate befall and persuade each other before they can go forward. the New Forest, but there is huge concern in my The Forestry Commission is not just about commerce constituency that steps may be taken in that sort of or timber; it is also about conservation and disease control. direction. I had an early start this morning. I had to go to the Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Does my hon. New Forest and get back in time for the debate, because Friend share my concern that when phytophthora ramorum, I was attending the funeral of my constituent and otherwise known as sudden oak death, is starting to friend, Mr Mike Gilling. Mike was the sort of person devastate large forests and mixed woodland, it is not the who, by anyone’s definition of a society, big or not, put right time to do something that might put at risk into it far more than he took out of it. It was therefore measures to control it? not surprising that there was a wide spectrum of mourners at that funeral, representing a good cross-section of the Dr Lewis: I share that concern. It comes back to the people of Hythe, which is on the edge of the New exchange that I had with the Secretary of State during Forest. Did any of them come up to me after the funeral her initial contribution. There is a deficit in the running and say, “Julian, I really think you should be supporting of the New Forest, and there is a good reason why there these proposals that the Government are putting forward is a deficit. It is precisely because the Forestry Commission for the New Forest”? Not one. Did anyone come up to has duties, such as trying to address matters concerning me and say, “Julian, I do hope you’re going to speak out disease and matters concerning conservation, as well as against these proposals this afternoon in the debate”? trying to make what profit it can from the commercial Quite a few. management of the timber industry. 963 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 964

[Dr Julian Lewis] who gathered to make their points. I have been surprised by the tone adopted by many Members who have When we consider what the future holds, we are told participated in the debate, because the people who not to worry because either the Government will be attended the rally were not in the main Labour party convinced that a new or existing charitable trust will be supporters—I have been to a few Labour rallies and able to take on the burden, or they will not give up the trade union do’s. Although there were many Labour forest and it will remain in public ownership. This is not party members present, there were voters for all parties dissent; this is me participating in the consultation. there. Indeed, if one party represented there was in the Here is my answer: do not give up the forest or give it to majority, I speculate that it probably was not my own. a charity, either a new one or an old one, because they Those people did not feel that they had been duped, will be unable to take on the £2.9 million deficit. If the and if anyone had put it to them that they were being Government say, “Don’t worry, we’ll pay for that,” why dishonest in their concerns, I think that they would have the heck are they bothering to make the change? We given the accuser very short shrift. They are people who really do not need this. honestly and rightly believe that the rights of access There is particular concern about the Public Bodies that they are vaguely being promised through the Bill. The New Forest has traditionally always been consultation are not worth banking on. They are people governed by its own legislation, which is laid out in the who, because of the huge deficit that the hon. Member New Forest Acts, but there are provisions in the Public for New Forest East so amply laid out, do not buy the Bodies Bill that look as though they will take precedence idea that there could be a great renaissance in the over those Acts. If I seek any assurances at all from the voluntary sector, in charitable bodies and in people Government Front Bench, it is an assurance that no coming together to buy woodland. They believe, absolutely provision in that Bill will have supremacy over the rightly, that they already own that land; it is owned by provisions of the New Forest Acts. It is terribly important the British people. that we have a constellation of organisations and that We all know, from the past 13 years, that we cannot the verderers are able to say no. We need a sort of mixed have a referendum on every issue—on the many difficult economy, with neither statism on the one side, nor total things that people disagree with. On an issue as fundamental privatisation, or hand-over to a private organisation or as this, however, we have to have the consent of the charity, on the other. people before we go ahead. On Sunday, like the thousands John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Will the hon. Gentleman of people who have made their views known and written give way? to hon. Members, people at the rally made it very clear that the Government simply do not have that consent Dr Lewis: No, I will not. and should think again. I must say that I am getting a bit fed up with being I hope that Liberal Democrat Members will pay heed put in this position, as this is not the first time. At the to the stand that their party president, my constituency general election there were Liberal Democrats who neighbour, the hon. Member for Westmorland and pledged in good faith that they would not raise tuition Lonsdale, has taken, and consider voting with us today fees, and yet they have had to treble them, and there and in opposition to the Public Bodies Bill, on which were Conservatives, like me, who pledged in good faith the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) that the nuclear deterrent would be safe, yet we have made a good point, when she noted the potential dangers seen its confirmation put off until after the next election. in relation both to this issue and to others if we go Now we have this measure, which I do not think was in down that route. Ultimately, however, on that and on any party’s manifesto. Much effort has been put into many other measures going through the House, such as ensuring that the Conservative party is no longer seen that on tuition fees—I am thinking of all the other as the nasty party. We may no longer be the nasty party, broken promises that we have seen—there are only so but I do not want the new party that I understand some many times that Members, who undoubtedly have genuine people are trying to form—a strange permanent coalition grievances with what their party and Government are of Conservatives and Liberals—to get the reputation of doing in their name, can credibly go to their constituents being the party of nasty surprises. This is a nasty and wash their hands of it. Eventually, every Government surprise, and we can do without it. Member, but the Liberal Democrats in particular, will have to account to their constituents and parties for the 6.32 pm way in which they have propped up the Government. John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): I seem to spend a lot of time following the hon. Member Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): Does for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) and agreeing with his my hon. Friend agree that this is an opportunity for criticism of his party and the Government on the nuclear Liberal Democrat Members not to break their promises deterrent, so it is a great pleasure to follow him and but to come along and vote with us on the issue? agree with his criticism of the Government Front-Bench team on the issue of the nation’s forests. John Woodcock: Yes, it is. I hope that many Liberal The Secretary of State, in her rather long speech, Democrats do so today and on the Public Bodies Bill, invited Members to go to Grizedale forest and have a because no Member, unless they have not checked their look around to see what they think. I wish that she had e-mail or post, can have failed to see the anger about been there last Sunday for the rally that I attended, as this issue. I hope that they act on it with us and take into did Lord Clark of Windermere and the hon. Member account what their constituents are rightly telling them, for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), whose but ultimately they will have to take into account what constituency neighbours mine. We all spoke at the rally they are doing daily to prop up the Government, who and saw the great, diverse and angry crowd of people are not listening to the British people, and act accordingly. 965 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 966

6.38 pm When that excuse wore thin, the Government turned Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab): The Forestry to the explanation that this was about allowing communities Commission is a British success story.I say that deliberately, and environmental groups to manage the land—the big because although we are talking about England’s forests, society. That was until most of those bodies realised, as as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North has been confirmed today, that they would have to meet and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) reminded us, the Forestry the market price to purchase the land and that they Commission operates throughout the United Kingdom, would be scraping around for years afterwards to try to and weakening it, as the Government are doing in the pay for its upkeep—for the assets and liabilities that measures before us, will have an impact throughout the they would be taking on. UK. Only when the Secretary of State realised that neither The Forestry Commission, as we were also reminded, of those two explanations for the Government’s action was set up in 1919, and its core business originally was had any credibility were we given the spurious reason the production of pit props. Those days are long gone, that it was necessary because of the failings of the however, as are the days when it planted insensitive and Forestry Commission constitution. Significantly, we did destructive plantations of parade ground conifers that not hear that from her until today, but we have heard it marched across our hillsides. on several occasions recently. It was mentioned briefly today by the Prime Minister. The argument is that there Over recent years, the commission has been at the is some inherent conflict of interest in the Forestry forefront of rural protection. My hon. Friend the Member Commission that makes it unable to carry out the role for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) and several other that is given to it. We have heard no evidence that such a hon. Members drew attention to its work on the stewardship conflict of interest gets in the way of the commission of the natural environment, on which it has set an doing its work. All we have heard is that it is a very example to other organisations. successful organisation that is performing an admirable The Forestry Commission has shown genuine concern duty in protecting our forests and enhancing their for the environment and has put it at the heart of its biodiversity, and ensuring that we, the public, have work, and it has given the highest priority to the protection access to them. and enhancement of biodiversity.As several hon. Members First, it was the money, then it was the big society, reminded us, particularly my hon. Friend the Member and then it was the alleged conflict of interest. I hope for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), it has been that the Minister will give us the real reason for this, particularly successful in opening access to its estate, because there is widespread suspicion that we have not even to those parts that it does not own but leases. One heard it. I understand that he has let slip one of his of the major concerns as this process goes forward is primary motivating forces—that this is unfinished business; what will happen to that access. At the moment, the even though Baroness Thatcher thought of selling off estate has some 40 million visitors a year. They go there the forestry estate, she never had the determination to not only to walk, ride and cycle but to have their carry it through. For her, privatising our nation’s forests experience enhanced and interpreted by the Forestry was one privatisation too far. The people of England, Commission in producing educational material. whether they be walkers, cyclists, riders or just ordinary Those are all outstanding achievements for the Forestry people who care about our natural woodlands, are Commission, in the course of which it has been able to united in saying no to that privatisation. reduce its dependency on public funds. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) drew attention It is clear that the Government’s use of the big society to an outstanding aspect of its record—it is the only to justify the policy is a sham. This is not about new state-owned forest in Europe to have been declared opportunities for public participation or new ownership truly sustainable. As she said, the whole of the public models. It is not about giving preference to local people, forest estate has received Forest Stewardship Council because they would have to bid for the land alongside certification and, as such, is recognised as being managed international logging companies. responsibly. It is significant that, when questioned on We have heard about the position of heritage forests this, the Minister of State has been completely unable such as the New Forest and the Forest of Dean. I want to guarantee that attaining such certification will be a to put on record what the Government’s consultation requirement for those who might take over its ownership paper says about those forests. It states that they might and management. He has described that as being something be handed over to charities, but that those charities that will be optional for them, which means, of course, “would be expected to become less reliant on Government support something that they will not wish to subscribe to. over time.” Throughout this debate, we have struggled to understand What charity or trust in its right mind would take on the reason for what the Government are doing. The first the liability of the New Forest or the Forest of Dean if reason given by the Secretary of State—[Interruption.] it were expected to make savings over time? She says that we do not understand; well, perhaps the Minister of State will explain it to us. Originally she My hon. Friends the Members for Bishop Auckland described the sale as something that would fill the black (Helen Goodman) and for Nottingham South (Lilian hole in the flood defence budget. That was until she Greenwood) spoke about Robin Hood in the context of realised that the cost to the Government of subsidising the forests. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham other people to manage the forests would far outweigh South described the sale of these assets as mean and any of those proceeds. Indeed, the impact assessment small-minded. To that, I add stupid and destructive. published today makes it clear that in fact the Government The sale of our forests and woodlands is opposed by stand to make a net loss from the sale of these forests, 84% of the public. The Secretary of State was dismissive and that the burden on the public purse will be greater of public opinion, but 300,000 people have already as a result of their disposal, not less. signed a petition against the sell-off. I wonder whether 967 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 968

[Sir Peter Soulsby] During it, we will listen to many of the organisations referred to this evening that have an interest in the she is dismissive of the people because she thinks that matter, and I will personally discuss it with them. they do not understand what she is doing. That point We have repeatedly stated that existing public benefits has been made by some Members, who have said that will be protected in any transaction. I shall return to there is scaremongering. I suggest that most Members that point later. I also emphasise that the programme know that the people understand only too well the that we propose will take 10 years. It is not, as one threat of what the Secretary of State is doing to our Member suggested, a fire sale; it is a long and transitional precious forests and woodlands. but dramatic change in the ownership and management In this comparatively short debate, we have only of Britain’s farms and woodlands. If we are not satisfied begun to reflect the concern and anger of people up and with any offer that comes forward, there will be no deal down the country about the future of our precious on the forest in question. forests and woodlands. Our woods and forests are just I am afraid that the hon. Member for Wakefield that—ours. Of course the Forestry Commission must (Mary Creagh) demonstrated a considerable lack of continue to be commercially effective, but it must also true knowledge. [Interruption.] If Labour Members be there to protect our access as walkers, cyclists and wait, they will hear the reality. She asserted that there riders in our forests, to continue its excellent work in was no information available about the area of ancient education, and to protect and improve forest habitats. woodlands involved—it is 53,000 hectares, for her As my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington information—and, contrary to what she said, SSSIs are (John McDonnell) reminded us, it must have the staff included in the mapping process. She also went on and the scientific expertise to carry out its wider public about Labour having sold only a net 4,000 hectares, but duties as an adviser and a regulator. the fact is that it got rid of 9,000 hectares without Forests were indeed sold off while Labour was in adequate protection for public benefits. government, but the first tranche of sales planned by this Government involves 10 times more land than was Mary Creagh: Will the Minister give way? sold off in the last five years of the Labour Government. Those sales made possible the purchase of land to plant Mr Paice: On the issue of—[HON.MEMBERS: “Give 1 million trees in Wigan, 2 million in Warrington, way!”] No, I am not going to give way. 2 million in St Helens, 1 million in Moseley and 1 million On the issue of funding, the reality is open for us to in Ellesmere Port. Every penny went back into forestry, see in the Forestry Commission’s accounts. It costs not to fill a black hole in the Secretary of State’s flood £17 million a year to run the Forest Enterprise in defence budget. England, excluding research and regulatory costs. The protests about this issue are only beginning. They will go on until the Government get the message. Barry Gardiner: Will the Minister give way? Members from all parts of the House will continue to get the message from their constituents. We have heard Mr Paice: No. brave words from the hon. Members for Hexham (Guy We get just a £1 million surplus from commercial Opperman) and for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who logging activity. That is one of the drivers of the change. spoke with authority and conviction on behalf of their The commercial timber sector tells us that if it could constituents and their beloved forests. have access to our commercial forests, not the recreational ones, it could do better and would return the improvement George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): Will the hon. to us through the lease. Gentleman give way? Barry Gardiner: Will the Minister give way? Sir Peter Soulsby: I do not have time, I am afraid. Those Members reflected this evening a message Mr Paice: No, I am not going to give way. that we will all hear in the weeks and months to come— that these are our woods and our forests, and they Barry Gardiner: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I are precious to us all. They must remain open to the tabled a parliamentary question for named day answer public, protected for the public and owned by the on 31 January, seeking to elicit information from the public. Minister. My office phoned the Department today only to be told that it was waiting for the Minister to— 6.50 pm Mr Speaker: Order. That is not a point of order for The Minister of State, Department for Environment, the Chair, and it is not a matter to be dealt with now. Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): A lot of issues have been raised in the debate, and I intend to Mr Paice: Somebody referred to the opportunity for respond to as many as possible. I undertake to write wind farms, and we have just heard some more. to hon. Members who have asked specific questions if I A number of Members referred to people’s rights, do not have time to answer them all. and I wish to spend a few moments explaining where we We have heard speculation about all sorts of risks to are on access. Permissive rights have been mentioned, aspects of forests if our proposals go ahead. I hope in and I have to stress that very little of the forest estate the next few minutes to be able to debunk most of that carries such rights. I suspect that Members are confusing nonsense. Those risks have been invented for totally them with dedicated rights under the Countryside and spurious reasons. I stress that this is a consultation, and Rights of Way Act 2000. Some 2,000 hectares of land that it will last for the full 12 weeks, as is the convention. carries permissive rights, and that is all land that is held 969 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 970 on 999-year leases. Of the land that we actually own, Ian Murray: Will the Minister give way? 90% has dedicated access, which cannot be extinguished. Indeed before transfer, we could and would enhance Mr Paice: No—I am not giving way anymore. that provision to cover any forms of access not already Finally, on jobs, I want to make this point. The covered by it. Government believe that any commercial undertaking The hon. Member for Leicester South (Sir Peter that leases parts of our forests for commercial purposes Soulsby) suggested that the Government are weakening will want to increase commercial and economic activity. the Forestry Commission, but nothing could be further That is the best way to encourage job creation. People from the truth. will not take forests on just to shut the gate—they would be unable to do so even if they wanted to—and Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Will leave it there; they will want to run that area as a the Minister give way? commercial, job-creating business. Mr Paice: I am not giving way to the right hon. This debate was based on Opposition claims that Gentleman because he has only just come into the range, frankly, from the spurious to the absurd. Not Chamber. only do the Government not intend, as the Opposition motion suggests, to sell 100% of the forest estate; we The Forestry Commission will have its role altered could not do so, because we do not even own 58,000 over time, as this period transpires. We want it to hectares of it. The actual figures are in the document. concentrate on regulation, advice and research, and on promoting the wider planting of trees. Let us not forget The Secretary of State and I have repeatedly stressed— that the under the last five years of the Labour Government, tree planting in this country fell by 60%. Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). A number of hon. Members referred to the Forest Stewardship Council. I can assure the House—I am Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put. happy to give this guarantee—that the council’s certification Question agreed to. scheme will remain a condition if we transfer any Question put accordingly, (Standing Order No. 31(2)), forests that are currently subject to it, as they all are. That the original words stand part of the Question. My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy The House divided: Ayes 260, Noes 310. Opperman) understandably wanted assurances and called the issue of access “a deal-breaker”. I can assure him—I Division No. 188] [6.59 pm promise him—that access as it currently exists will be guaranteed. I cannot make it any clearer than that. AYES Abbott, Ms Diane Byrne, rh Mr Liam Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): Access is the key Abrahams, Debbie Cairns, David point in the hundreds of communications that I have Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Campbell, Mr Alan received. Does the Minister agree that over the course Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Campbell, Mr Ronnie of the consultation, the challenge for Ministers is to Alexander, Heidi Caton, Martin make the case on access to the hundreds and thousands Ali, Rushanara Chapman, Mrs Jenny of people who are e-mailing hon. Members? Anderson, Mr David Clark, Katy Austin, Ian Clarke, rh Mr Tom Mr Paice: I cannot say it more clearly than I just did. Bailey, Mr Adrian Clwyd, rh Ann Bain, Mr William Coaker, Vernon We will guarantee existing rights of access on any land Balls, rh Ed Coffey, Ann that is moved away from its current operation. Banks, Gordon Connarty, Michael My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham also rightly Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cooper, Rosie referred to jobs in his area—specifically to those at Bayley, Hugh Cooper, rh Yvette Egger—as did the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington Beckett, rh Margaret Corbyn, Jeremy (John McDonnell). I do not often agree with the latter Begg, Dame Anne Crausby, Mr David politically, but I respect his passionate belief in the Bell, Sir Stuart Creagh, Mary interests of the working people of this country. I can Benn, rh Hilary Creasy, Stella assure my hon. Friend and the hon. Gentleman that the Benton, Mr Joe Cruddas, Jon Government care about those jobs too. The announcement Berger, Luciana Cryer, John Betts, Mr Clive Cunningham, Alex of job losses today is extremely sad and distressing, and Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cunningham, Mr Jim we understand and sympathise with those who might Blears, rh Hazel Cunningham, Tony lose their jobs, but that was not the result of our Blenkinsop, Tom Curran, Margaret consultation. Blomfield, Paul Dakin, Nic Blunkett, rh Mr David Danczuk, Simon Mr Burley: I represent Cannock chase, which is one Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Darling, rh Mr Alistair of the great forests of England and important to everybody Brennan, Kevin David, Mr Wayne in the west midlands. Does the Minister agree that it is Brooke, Annette Davidson, Mr Ian an historic forest and, as such, deserves heritage status? Brown, rh Mr Gordon Davies, Geraint Brown, Lyn De Piero, Gloria Mr Paice: There will be lots of bids for heritage forest Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Denham, rh Mr John status. The criteria by which they will be judged are laid Brown, Mr Russell Dobbin, Jim down in the consultation document. I fully recognise Bryant, Chris Dobson, rh Frank that Cannock chase has major attributes in that respect, Buck, Ms Karen Docherty, Thomas as have other forests, but I am not at this stage going to Burden, Richard Dodds, rh Mr Nigel start listing every single one. Burnham, rh Andy Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. 971 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 972

Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lammy, rh Mr David Sheerman, Mr Barry Vaz, Valerie Doran, Mr Frank Lavery, Ian Sheridan, Jim Walley, Joan Dowd, Jim Lazarowicz, Mark Shuker, Gavin Watson, Mr Tom Doyle, Gemma Leslie, Chris Simpson, David Watts, Mr Dave Dromey, Jack Lewis, Mr Ivan Singh, Mr Marsha Weir, Mr Mike Dugher, Michael Lewis, Dr Julian Skinner, Mr Dennis Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Durkan, Mark Lloyd, Tony Slaughter, Mr Andy Whitehead, Dr Alan Eagle, Ms Angela Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Smith, rh Mr Andrew Wicks, rh Malcolm Eagle, Maria Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Nick Williams, Hywel Edwards, Jonathan Lucas, Caroline Smith, Owen Williams, Mr Mark Efford, Clive Lucas, Ian Soulsby, Sir Peter Williamson, Chris Elliott, Julie MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Spellar, rh Mr John Wilson, Phil Ellman, Mrs Louise MacShane, rh Mr Denis Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Winnick, Mr David Engel, Natascha Mactaggart, Fiona Tami, Mark Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Esterson, Bill Mahmood, Mr Khalid Thomas, Mr Gareth Wishart, Pete Evans, Chris Mahmood, Shabana Thornberry, Emily Woodcock, John Farrelly, Paul Mann, John Timms, rh Stephen Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Farron, Tim Marsden, Mr Gordon Trickett, Jon Wright, David Field, rh Mr Frank McCabe, Steve Turner, Karl Wright, Mr Iain Fitzpatrick, Jim McCann, Mr Michael Twigg, Derek Flello, Robert McCarthy, Kerry Twigg, Stephen Tellers for the Ayes: Flint, rh Caroline McDonagh, Siobhain Umunna, Mr Chuka Angela Smith and Fovargue, Yvonne McDonnell, John Vaz, rh Keith Jonathan Reynolds Francis, Dr Hywel McFadden, rh Mr Pat Gapes, Mike McGovern, Alison NOES Gardiner, Barry McGovern, Jim Gilbert, Stephen McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Adams, Nigel Cable, rh Vince Gilmore, Sheila McKechin, Ann Afriyie, Adam Cairns, Alun Glass, Pat McKinnell, Catherine Aldous, Peter Cameron, rh Mr David Glindon, Mrs Mary Meacher, rh Mr Michael Alexander, rh Danny Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Goggins, rh Paul Meale, Mr Alan Amess, Mr David Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Goldsmith, Zac Mearns, Ian Andrew, Stuart Carmichael, Neil Goodman, Helen Michael, rh Alun Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Carswell, Mr Douglas Greatrex, Tom Miliband, rh David Bacon, Mr Richard Chishti, Rehman Green, Kate Miliband, rh Edward Bagshawe, Ms Louise Chope, Mr Christopher Greenwood, Lilian Mitchell, Austin Baker, Norman Clappison, Mr James Griffith, Nia Morden, Jessica Baker, Steve Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Gwynne, Andrew Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Baldry, Tony Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hain, rh Mr Peter Morris, Grahame M. Baldwin, Harriett Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hamilton, Mr David (Easington) Barclay, Stephen Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hancock, Mr Mike Mudie, Mr George Barker, Gregory Collins, Damian Hanson, rh Mr David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Baron, Mr John Cox, Mr Geoffrey Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Paul Bebb, Guto Crabb, Stephen Harris, Mr Tom Murray, Ian Bellingham, Mr Henry Crockart, Mike Havard, Mr Dai Nandy, Lisa Benyon, Richard Crouch, Tracey Healey, rh John Nash, Pamela Beresford, Sir Paul Davey, Mr Edward Hendrick, Mark Nokes, Caroline Berry, Jake Davies, David T. C. Hepburn, Mr Stephen O’Donnell, Fiona Bingham, Andrew (Monmouth) Hillier, Meg Onwurah, Chi Binley, Mr Brian Davies, Glyn Hilling, Julie Osborne, Sandra Birtwistle, Gordon Davies, Philip Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Owen, Albert Blackman, Bob Davis, rh Mr David Hoey, Kate Pearce, Teresa Blunt, Mr Crispin de Bois, Nick Hood, Mr Jim Perkins, Toby Boles, Nick Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kelvin Phillipson, Bridget Bone, Mr Peter Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Howarth, rh Mr George Pound, Stephen Bottomley, Sir Peter Dorries, Nadine Hunt, Tristram Qureshi, Yasmin Bradley, Karen Doyle-Price, Jackie Irranca-Davies, Huw Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Brady, Mr Graham Drax, Richard Jackson, Glenda Reed, Mr Jamie Brazier, Mr Julian Duddridge, James James, Mrs Siân C. Reeves, Rachel Bridgen, Andrew Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jamieson, Cathy Reid, Mr Alan Brooke, Annette Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, rh Alan Reynolds, Emma Browne, Mr Jeremy Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Diana Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Bruce, Fiona Ellis, Michael Jones, Graham Rotheram, Steve Bruce, rh Malcolm Ellison, Jane Jones, Helen Roy, Mr Frank Buckland, Mr Robert Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr Kevan Roy, Lindsay Burley, Mr Aidan Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Susan Elan Ruane, Chris Burns, Conor Eustice, George Jowell, rh Tessa Ruddock, rh Joan Burns, Mr Simon Evans, Graham Joyce, Eric Sanders, Mr Adrian Burrowes, Mr David Evans, Jonathan Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sarwar, Anas Burstow, Paul Evennett, Mr David Keeley, Barbara Seabeck, Alison Burt, Alistair Fabricant, Michael Kendall, Liz Shannon, Jim Burt, Lorely Fallon, Michael Khan, rh Sadiq Sharma, Mr Virendra Byles, Dan Featherstone, Lynne 973 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 974

Foster, rh Mr Don Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, Hugh Tomlinson, Justin Fox,rhDrLiam Latham, Pauline Rogerson, Dan Tredinnick, David Francois, rh Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Rosindell, Andrew Truss, Elizabeth Freeman, George Leadsom, Andrea Rudd, Amber Turner, Mr Andrew Freer, Mike Lee, Jessica Ruffley, Mr David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Dr Phillip Russell, Bob Uppal, Paul Gale, Mr Roger Leech, Mr John Rutley, David Vaizey, Mr Edward Garnier, Mr Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Sandys, Laura Vara, Mr Shailesh Garnier, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Scott, Mr Lee Vickers, Martin Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Shapps, rh Grant Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa George, Andrew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sharma, Alok Walker, Mr Charles Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Brandon Shelbrooke, Alec Walker, Mr Robin Gilbert, Stephen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Simmonds, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lidington, rh Mr David Simpson, Mr Keith Walter, Mr Robert Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Skidmore, Chris Ward, Mr David Goodwill, Mr Robert Lloyd, Stephen Smith, Miss Chloe Watkinson, Angela Gove, rh Michael Lopresti, Jack Smith, Henry Weatherley, Mike Graham, Richard Lord, Jonathan Smith, Julian Grant, Mrs Helen Loughton, Tim Soames, Nicholas Webb, Steve Gray, Mr James Luff, Peter Soubry, Anna Wharton, James Grayling, rh Chris Lumley, Karen Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wheeler, Heather Green, Damian Main, Mrs Anne Spencer, Mr Mark White, Chris Greening, Justine May, rh Mrs Theresa Stephenson, Andrew Whittaker, Craig Griffiths, Andrew Maynard, Paul Stevenson, John Whittingdale, Mr John Gummer, Ben McCartney, Karl Stewart, Bob Wiggin, Bill Gyimah, Mr Sam McIntosh, Miss Anne Stewart, Iain Willetts, rh Mr David Hague, rh Mr William McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stewart, Rory Williams, Mr Mark Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Williams, Roger Hames, Duncan McVey, Esther Stride, Mel Williams, Stephen Hammond, rh Mr Philip Menzies, Mark Stuart, Mr Graham Williamson, Gavin Hammond, Stephen Miller, Maria Stunell, Andrew Willott, Jenny Hancock, Matthew Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian Wilson, Mr Rob Harper, Mr Mark Milton, Anne Swales, Ian Wright, Simon Harrington, Richard Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swayne, Mr Desmond Yeo, Mr Tim Harris, Rebecca Moore, rh Michael Swinson, Jo Young, rh Sir George Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Swire, rh Mr Hugo Zahawi, Nadhim Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morgan, Nicky Syms, Mr Robert Hayes, Mr John Morris, Anne Marie Tapsell, Sir Peter Tellers for the Noes: Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, James Teather, Sarah Jeremy Wright and Heath, Mr David Mowat, David Timpson, Mr Edward Mark Hunter Heaton-Harris, Chris Mundell, rh David Hemming, John Murray, Sheryll Question accordingly negatived. Henderson, Gordon Murrison, Dr Andrew Hendry, Charles Neill, Robert Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Herbert, rh Nick Newton, Sarah That the proposed words be there added. Hinds, Damian Norman, Jesse The House divided: Ayes 301, Noes 253. Hoban, Mr Mark Nuttall, Mr David Hollingbery, George Ollerenshaw, Eric Division No. 189] [7.15 pm Hollobone, Mr Philip Osborne, rh Mr George Hopkins, Kris Ottaway, Richard AYES Horwood, Martin Paice, rh Mr James Adams, Nigel Birtwistle, Gordon Howarth, Mr Gerald Parish, Neil Afriyie, Adam Blackman, Bob Howell, John Patel, Priti Aldous, Peter Blunt, Mr Crispin Huhne, rh Chris Paterson, rh Mr Owen Alexander, rh Danny Boles, Nick Huppert, Dr Julian Pawsey, Mark Amess, Mr David Bone, Mr Peter Hurd, Mr Nick Penrose, John Andrew, Stuart Bottomley, Sir Peter Jackson, Mr Stewart Percy, Andrew Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bradley, Karen James, Margot Perry, Claire Bacon, Mr Richard Brady, Mr Graham Javid, Sajid Phillips, Stephen Bagshawe, Ms Louise Brazier, Mr Julian Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pickles, rh Mr Eric Baker, Norman Bridgen, Andrew Johnson, Gareth Pincher, Christopher Baker, Steve Brooke, Annette Johnson, Joseph Poulter, Dr Daniel Baldry, Tony Browne, Mr Jeremy Jones, Andrew Pritchard, Mark Baldwin, Harriett Bruce, Fiona Jones, Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Barclay, Stephen Bruce, rh Malcolm Jones, Mr Marcus Randall, rh Mr John Barker, Gregory Buckland, Mr Robert Kawczynski, Daniel Reckless, Mark Bebb, Guto Burley, Mr Aidan Kelly, Chris Redwood, rh Mr John Bellingham, Mr Henry Burns, Conor Kirby, Simon Rees-Mogg, Jacob Benyon, Richard Burns, Mr Simon Knight, rh Mr Greg Reevell, Simon Beresford, Sir Paul Burrowes, Mr David Kwarteng, Kwasi Reid, Mr Alan Berry, Jake Burstow, Paul Lamb, Norman Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bingham, Andrew Burt, Alistair Lancaster, Mark Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Binley, Mr Brian Byles, Dan 975 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 976

Cable, rh Vince Hammond, rh Mr Philip Menzies, Mark Smith, Henry Cairns, Alun Hammond, Stephen Miller, Maria Smith, Julian Cameron, rh Mr David Hancock, Matthew Mills, Nigel Soames, Nicholas Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hancock, Mr Mike Milton, Anne Soubry, Anna Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harper, Mr Mark Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Carmichael, Neil Harrington, Richard Moore, rh Michael Spencer, Mr Mark Carswell, Mr Douglas Harris, Rebecca Mordaunt, Penny Stephenson, Andrew Chishti, Rehman Hart, Simon Morgan, Nicky Stevenson, John Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Bob Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hayes, Mr John Morris, James Stewart, Iain Clegg, rh Mr Nick Heald, Mr Oliver Mowat, David Stewart, Rory Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heath, Mr David Mundell, rh David Streeter, Mr Gary Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heaton-Harris, Chris Murray, Sheryll Stuart, Mr Graham Collins, Damian Henderson, Gordon Murrison, Dr Andrew Stunell, Andrew Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hendry, Charles Neill, Robert Sturdy, Julian Crabb, Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Newton, Sarah Swales, Ian Crockart, Mike Hinds, Damian Norman, Jesse Swayne, Mr Desmond Crouch, Tracey Hoban, Mr Mark Nuttall, Mr David Swinson, Jo Davey, Mr Edward Hollingbery, George Ollerenshaw, Eric Swire, rh Mr Hugo Davies, David T. C. Hollobone, Mr Philip Osborne, rh Mr George Syms, Mr Robert (Monmouth) Hopkins, Kris Ottaway, Richard Tapsell, Sir Peter Davies, Glyn Horwood, Martin Paice, rh Mr James Teather, Sarah Davies, Philip Howarth, Mr Gerald Parish, Neil Timpson, Mr Edward de Bois, Nick Howell, John Patel, Priti Tomlinson, Justin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huhne, rh Chris Paterson, rh Mr Owen Truss, Elizabeth Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huppert, Dr Julian Pawsey, Mark Turner, Mr Andrew Dorries, Nadine Hurd, Mr Nick Penrose, John Tyrie, Mr Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart Percy, Andrew Uppal, Paul Drax, Richard James, Margot Perry, Claire Vaizey, Mr Edward Duddridge, James Javid, Sajid Phillips, Stephen Vickers, Martin Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pickles, rh Mr Eric Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Gareth Pincher, Christopher Walker, Mr Charles Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Joseph Poulter, Dr Daniel Walker, Mr Robin Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Pritchard, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Walter, Mr Robert Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr Marcus Randall, rh Mr John Ward, Mr David Elphicke, Charlie Kawczynski, Daniel Reckless, Mark Watkinson, Angela Eustice, George Kelly, Chris Redwood, rh Mr John Weatherley, Mike Evans, Graham Kirby, Simon Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wharton, James Evans, Jonathan Knight, rh Mr Greg Reevell, Simon Wheeler, Heather Evennett, Mr David Kwarteng, Kwasi Reid, Mr Alan White, Chris Fabricant, Michael Lamb, Norman Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Whittaker, Craig Fallon, Michael Lancaster, Mark Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Featherstone, Lynne Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, Hugh Wiggin, Bill Fox,rhDrLiam Latham, Pauline Rogerson, Dan Willetts, rh Mr David Francois, rh Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Rosindell, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Freeman, George Leadsom, Andrea Rudd, Amber Williams, Roger Freer, Mike Lee, Jessica Ruffley, Mr David Williams, Stephen Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Dr Phillip Russell, Bob Williamson, Gavin Gale, Mr Roger Leech, Mr John Rutley, David Wilson, Mr Rob Garnier, Mr Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Sandys, Laura Wright, Jeremy Garnier, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Scott, Mr Lee Wright, Simon Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Shapps, rh Grant Yeo, Mr Tim George, Andrew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sharma, Alok Young, rh Sir George Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Brandon Shelbrooke, Alec Zahawi, Nadhim Gilbert, Stephen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Simmonds, Mark Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lidington, rh Mr David Simpson, Mr Keith Tellers for the Ayes: Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Skidmore, Chris Mark Hunter and Goodwill, Mr Robert Lloyd, Stephen Smith, Miss Chloe Mr Shailesh Vara Gove, rh Michael Lopresti, Jack Graham, Richard Lord, Jonathan NOES Grant, Mrs Helen Loughton, Tim Abbott, Ms Diane Balls, rh Ed Gray, Mr James Luff, Peter Abrahams, Debbie Banks, Gordon Grayling, rh Chris Lumley, Karen Green, Damian Main, Mrs Anne Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Barron, rh Mr Kevin Greening, Justine May, rh Mrs Theresa Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Bayley, Hugh Griffiths, Andrew Maynard, Paul Alexander, Heidi Beckett, rh Margaret Gummer, Ben McCartney, Karl Ali, Rushanara Begg, Dame Anne Gyimah, Mr Sam McIntosh, Miss Anne Anderson, Mr David Bell, Sir Stuart Hague, rh Mr William McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Austin, Ian Benn, rh Hilary Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Bailey, Mr Adrian Benton, Mr Joe Hames, Duncan McVey, Esther Bain, Mr William Berger, Luciana 977 Public Forest Estate (England)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Public Forest Estate (England) 978

Betts, Mr Clive Field, rh Mr Frank McDonagh, Siobhain Sharma, Mr Virendra Blackman-Woods, Roberta Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonnell, John Sheerman, Mr Barry Blears, rh Hazel Flello, Robert McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sheridan, Jim Blenkinsop, Tom Flint, rh Caroline McGovern, Alison Shuker, Gavin Blomfield, Paul Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Jim Simpson, David Blunkett, rh Mr David Francis, Dr Hywel McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Singh, Mr Marsha Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gapes, Mike McKechin, Ann Skinner, Mr Dennis Brennan, Kevin Gardiner, Barry McKinnell, Catherine Slaughter, Mr Andy Brooke, Annette Gilbert, Stephen Meacher, rh Mr Michael Smith, rh Mr Andrew Brown, rh Mr Gordon Gilmore, Sheila Meale, Mr Alan Smith, Nick Brown, Lyn Glass, Pat Mearns, Ian Smith, Owen Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Glindon, Mrs Mary Michael, rh Alun Soulsby, Sir Peter Brown, Mr Russell Goggins, rh Paul Miliband, rh David Spellar, rh Mr John Bryant, Chris Goodman, Helen Miliband, rh Edward Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Buck, Ms Karen Greatrex, Tom Mitchell, Austin Tami, Mark Burden, Richard Green, Kate Morden, Jessica Thomas, Mr Gareth Burnham, rh Andy Greenwood, Lilian Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Thornberry, Emily Byrne, rh Mr Liam Griffith, Nia Morris, Grahame M. Timms, rh Stephen Cairns, David Gwynne, Andrew (Easington) Trickett, Jon Campbell, Mr Alan Hain, rh Mr Peter Mudie, Mr George Turner, Karl Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Twigg, Derek Caton, Martin Hancock, Mr Mike Murphy, rh Paul Twigg, Stephen Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hanson, rh Mr David Murray, Ian Umunna, Mr Chuka Clark, Katy Harris, Mr Tom Nandy, Lisa Vaz, rh Keith Clarke, rh Mr Tom Havard, Mr Dai Nash, Pamela Vaz, Valerie Clwyd, rh Ann Healey, rh John O’Donnell, Fiona Walley, Joan Coaker, Vernon Hendrick, Mark Onwurah, Chi Watson, Mr Tom Coffey, Ann Hepburn, Mr Stephen Osborne, Sandra Watts, Mr Dave Connarty, Michael Hillier, Meg Owen, Albert Weir, Mr Mike Cooper, Rosie Hilling, Julie Pearce, Teresa Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Cooper, rh Yvette Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Perkins, Toby Whitehead, Dr Alan Corbyn, Jeremy Hood, Mr Jim Phillipson, Bridget Wicks, rh Malcolm Crausby, Mr David Hopkins, Kelvin Qureshi, Yasmin Williams, Hywel Creagh, Mary Howarth, rh Mr George Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Williams, Mr Mark Creasy, Stella Hunt, Tristram Reed, Mr Jamie Williamson, Chris Crockart, Mike Irranca-Davies, Huw Reeves, Rachel Wilson, Phil Cruddas, Jon Jackson, Glenda Reid, Mr Alan Winnick, Mr David Cryer, John James, Mrs Siân C. Reynolds, Emma Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Cunningham, Alex Jamieson, Cathy Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Wishart, Pete Cunningham, Mr Jim Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Woodcock, John Cunningham, Tony Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Curran, Margaret Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Wright, David Dakin, Nic Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris Wright, Mr Iain Danczuk, Simon Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Joan Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Tellers for the Noes: David, Mr Wayne Jowell, rh Tessa Seabeck, Alison Angela Smith and Davidson, Mr Ian Joyce, Eric Shannon, Jim Jonathan Reynolds Davies, Geraint Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald De Piero, Gloria Keeley, Barbara Question accordingly agreed to. Denham, rh Mr John Kendall, Liz Dobbin, Jim Khan, rh Sadiq The Speaker declared the main Question, as amended, Dobson, rh Frank Lammy, rh Mr David to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Docherty, Thomas Lavery, Ian Resolved, Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lazarowicz, Mark That this House deplores the actions of the previous administration Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Leslie, Chris in selling off 25,000 acres of public forestry estate with wholly Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lewis, Mr Ivan inadequate protections; notes that the previous administration Doran, Mr Frank Lewis, Dr Julian sought to go even further in finding ways to exploit the forestry Dowd, Jim Lloyd, Tony estate for commercial gain as recently as 2009; welcomes the Doyle, Gemma Llwyd, Mr Elfyn consultation proposals to guarantee the future protection of Dromey, Jack Love, Mr Andrew heritage forests by offering them charitable trust status; supports Dugher, Michael Lucas, Caroline the consultation proposals for robust access and public benefit Durkan, Mark Lucas, Ian conditions that will be put in place through lease conditions, Eagle, Ms Angela MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan including access rights for cyclists and horse-riders; believes the Eagle, Maria MacShane, rh Mr Denis leasehold conditions regarding biodiversity and wildlife conservation will safeguard significant important environmental benefits; sees Edwards, Jonathan Mactaggart, Fiona these proposals as important in resolving the conflict of interest Efford, Clive Mahmood, Mr Khalid whereby the Forestry Commission is the regulator of the timber Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Shabana sector whilst being the largest operator in the England timber Ellman, Mrs Louise Mann, John market; considers that debate on the future of the forest estate Engel, Natascha Marsden, Mr Gordon ought to be conducted on the basis of the facts of the Government’s Esterson, Bill McCabe, Steve proposals; and believes that under these proposals people will Evans, Chris McCann, Mr Michael continue to enjoy the access and benefits they currently have from Farrelly, Paul McCarthy, Kerry the woodlands of England. 979 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Court of Auditors 2009 Report 980

Court of Auditors 2009 Report be spending the budget on. However, we are here tonight to debate the fact that although that is crucial, if we do not have the final piece in place—ensuring that once the 7.27 pm decision has been taken on that money it gets spent in The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine the way that was intended—we are not fulfilling what Greening): I beg to move, we need to fulfil. That means we are not getting value That this House takes note of the Unnumbered Explanatory for taxpayers’ money, and that is why this debate is so Memorandum dated 25 November 2010 submitted by HM Treasury critical. on the implementation of the 2009 EU budget, the Unnumbered The hon. Member for Glasgow South West Explanatory Memorandum dated 24 November 2010 submitted (Mr Davidson) asks how we can make a difference. I by the Department for International Development on the activities funded by the Eighth, Ninth and Tenth European Development hope the fact that I am an accountant will bring some— Funds in the financial year 2009, European Union Document [Interruption.] He is groaning, but it is a good thing to No. 12393/10 and Addenda 1 and 2 on Protection of the European be an accountant in this role. I understand some of the Union’s financial interests, European Union Document No. 13075/10 technical issues involved in auditing and managing financial and Addendum, relating to an annual report to the discharge accounts and in managing budgets, and I assure him authority on internal audits carried out in 2009, the Unnumbered that I shall bring that prior experience to my role as Explanatory Memorandum dated 22 October 2010 submitted by Economic Secretary on behalf of the Government. HM Treasury on the European Anti-Fraud Office’s tenth activity report for the period 1 January to 31 December 2009, and Let me set out for the House the background to this European Union Document No. 16662/10 and Addenda 1 and 2, issue before taking more interventions from hon. Members Commission Report to the European Parliament and the Council who rightly want to have their say on this topic. First, on the follow-up to 2008 Discharge; and supports the Government’s managing taxpayers’ money properly is crucial at any continued engagement with its EU partners to improve financial level, be it local or national Government or across the management of the EU budget. EU. It is a key part of the responsibility of Government I should start by saying that it is a pleasure to have and essential to the credibility of the EU budget and the this debate on the Floor of the House, as I believe that European Union as a whole. As I have said, this this is the first time that that has happened. European Government and I, like other Members of the House, Union issues are occupying hon. Members’ thoughts at find it completely unacceptable that the Court of Auditors this time, so holding this debate on the Floor of the was, for the 16th year in succession, unable to provide a House demonstrates how important it is to focus also positive statement of assurance on the EU’s accounts. on the crucial issue of ensuring sound financial management That is a continuing blot on the EU’s reputation and it of the EU budget. I therefore wish to emphasise at the raises serious questions about the management of EU outset the seriousness with which this Government take funds. As I have said, British and EU taxpayers need to the issue. Managing taxpayers’ money properly is crucial. know their money is being well spent, but the Court of Auditors cannot provide that assurance. We are talking Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Yet again, the about large sums of money and it remains difficult to European Court of Auditors has failed to approve the spend them effectively to deliver clearly the results we European budget. Will the Minister tell us for how want—growth, jobs and a stable EU. many consecutive years that has occurred? Kelvin Hopkins: As an accountant, the Minister will Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Fifteen. understand large numbers. In 2009, reported irregularities in agriculture increased by 43%. Things are getting Justine Greening: In fact, it is 16 years, and the worse, not better. Government view that as completely unacceptable. I hope that the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman is right that in Hopkins) will bear with me while I set out some of the some areas things are getting worse, but in others they steps we have already taken and those we plan to take are getting better. The problem is that there is no clear over the coming months to play our part in getting pace of improvement at a rate that will make a big these issues tackled. enough difference fast enough. The key challenge that we have to debate tonight and that the Government are Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): keen to push within Europe is how to get that step Does the Minister accept that every previous Government, change. What will it take to make sure that core financial of whatever party, have always said that that situation is management of EU funds is further up the agenda in unacceptable, yet nothing has ever changed? Why are the European Union than it has been? I will discuss her Government so soft on Europe? later how to manage that more effectively.

Justine Greening: I completely reject the hon. Gentleman’s Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): There is intervention about this Government being soft on Europe, one way: we could say to the EU, “If you don’t balance and I think that even he does not believe it. Far from your books, we won’t pay our contributions.” Will the being soft, we have taken a proactive approach to Government consider taking that position? managing down the EU budget and getting control over it. We are dealing with a key part of that because, as he Justine Greening: My hon. Friend echoes a sentiment is aware, we have been leading the debate on the size of that many people in the country will feel. Clearly, we the EU budget, with some success. We plan to lead the have a legal obligation in terms of our payments to the debate as we enter the next financial perspective about EU budget, but the challenge is sorting out the underlying how large the budget should be and the need for it to problem and even doing what he suggests would not do reduce in real terms over time. He will also be pleased to that. We have to address the underlying problem now, hear that we are steering the debate on what we should and there are ways in which we can do that. 981 Court of Auditors 2009 Report2 FEBRUARY 2011 Court of Auditors 2009 Report 982

If I can make a little progress, I shall provide some level of the EU budget, but what we spend that money context and talk about the steps that we are taking and on and ensuring it is spent on the right things that are planning to take. It is important to have this debate, deliver the right priorities for people on the ground, because the views of Members across the House and whichever member state they are in. their constituents on the budget are key in pointing out We are about to engage in a debate, which is important how important this matter is not only for the UK for the longer term, on how we change that mix of Government but to represent in Europe, which we plan investment to make it more significant. It is called the to do. To give some background, the European Court of debate on the financial perspective, and the hon. Gentleman Auditors report on the 2009 EU budget was published will be aware that that relates to the seven-year plan, on 9 November 2010. As hon. Members will know, at whereas early last year we debated the budget for 2011. that time the Government were taking extremely tough We have a chance to have that more fundamental debate decisions domestically, having just published the spending about how we spend money within Europe. The review that was our plan to deal with the largest peacetime Government are keen to lead that debate at EU level. deficit in British history. At home, we are taking the steps needed to cut the deficit and start tackling our Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): My hon. Friend—a debt. Actually, the experience is the same for most member of the coalition Government—knows that I people and most countries across Europe—member am one of her greatest fans. Having said that, is she states bringing their deficits under control by cutting aware, as I know she will be, that the irregularities by spending. Bulgaria and Romania in relation to pre-accession funds Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I do not doubt the amount to 81% of all the cases, and that there is also determination of the UK Government to bring down this yawning hole concerning cohesion funds? Really, the deficit—nor do I doubt the determination of many this is totally unacceptable. I have been involved in such other countries in the EU to bring down their deficits—but debates for 26 years. Nothing has changed. is it not telling that great countries trying to work together to bring down deficits do not seem to be able Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right to raise that to make an impact on the EU, because it is so remote issue, for lots of different reasons. Two spring to mind. from the peoples of Europe, particularly the people of The first is the macro level of the argument, which is this country? that new members joined the EU during the ’80s. Those member states got cohesion funds to help to develop Justine Greening: That remoteness—the lack of the their economies. There is a question as to the effectiveness ability, day to day, rigorously to monitor how spend is of that spend. We are about to embark on investment in going on—is one reason why we have reached this stage a new group of countries that are coming in. The today. Also, it is fair to recognise that 80% of the assumption about and the argument made for the accession spending happens at member state level. Therefore, countries is opening up markets, but we need to see there is some challenging complexity for any system in those economies develop for that business model of the ensuring that that spend across those disparate member EU to work. states, some of them new, is effective. In spite of that, we have to get a grip. Our Government My hon. Friend will be pleased to hear that yesterday in the UK are getting a grip on departmental spending I met the Bulgarian Minister who oversees the EU and the EU needs to do the same. I say to my hon. funds in Bulgaria. His entire job is administering those Friend the Member for Crawley (Henry Smith) that I funds. He has been in place for about a year. For the think that there is now an appetite across member states reasons that my hon. Friend mentions, I was keen to to start to address the issue. There is more of a common talk to the Minister about Bulgaria’s perspective. He agenda—perhaps at the EU and member state level—to made the point, which I thought was right, that in the address financial management. I welcome that development, past people said to countries like Bulgaria, “You’re not but I am also determined to harness it while it is there to spending the money that we are giving you.” His point get change for the better. was that those countries are keen to have it spent As I was saying, the Court of Auditors report was effectively, because that is in their interest. published at the same time as the EU-level negotiations Clearly, countries such as Bulgaria are at an early were taking place on the 2011 annual budget. stage of putting in place the structures and processes. The Minister talked to me about the work that they are Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The number of starting to do at national level and at regional level to member states has risen from nine to 27, and the enable better financial management of EU funds. That number of staff involved here has risen to some 200, yet is a move in the right direction. The question for other the number of reports produced has gone down from member states is what we can do at pan-EU level to 15 to six. If we are going to get a grip, we also need to make that easier. We should get rid of unnecessary get a grip on the financial situation in relation to what complexity and consider what we can do to help those the Court of Auditors delivers and the work that it member states to get along the road to stronger financial does. Does the Minister agree that something has to be management faster. I believe they want to do so. done about that as well? States such as Bulgaria understand that it is important Justine Greening: Yes, I do. The Government thought for their relationship with other EU member states to it totally unacceptable that EU officials received a 3.7% pay be seen to be stronger financial controllers of the money rise when our Government had to propose a pay freeze that they are getting. They understand why that is for public sector workers. We are not the only member important, not only in the medium or long term, but in state taking difficult decisions such as that. The debate the short term. The challenge for us is to ensure that we the hon. Gentleman is referring to is the one we have improve the framework within which they are working, already actively engaged in, which is about not only the and transparency is part of that. 983 Court of Auditors 2009 Report2 FEBRUARY 2011 Court of Auditors 2009 Report 984

[Justine Greening] The UK is currently one of only four member states that publish the sort of consolidated statement that we I am aware that I have taken several interventions. In are debating today. We want more transparency, which part, that is forcing me to jump to bits of my speech we think will drive better financial management; it is that I will come to shortly anyway. Perhaps I can make a not the only consideration, but a key one. The Government little progress and talk to the House about what I think have pursued that agenda at the domestic level because we need to do, some of the steps that we are taking, and we think that it is worth while, so we are pursuing it at what a better system of financial management at EU the EU level. We need those annual summaries to be level would look like. I shall begin with a little more published and to contain more meaningful information background to the European Court of Auditors report so that people can use and interpret them. and go on to the discharge negotiation, of which this debate is an important part—in other words, how we Kelvin Hopkins: Is there not a vested interest in get those accounts signed off. countries that are net recipients having a relaxed approach to the budgets? It is a bit of a slush fund for them to On the report, it is fair to say that there are some keep them on side. We are the ones who will be upset improvements. We have had a positive statement of about it, because we are net contributors. assurance on the reliability of the EU’s accounts, but as we can see and as we have already discussed tonight, Justine Greening: I can see why the hon. Gentleman everybody agrees that much more needs to be done. The says that, and there is always a risk that that might be pace of change is too slow, and we see no discernible the case. Interestingly, when I met the Bulgarian Minister trend in the right direction. We want to see financial in charge of EU funds, that was precisely not his management clearly supporting and controlling spend attitude, because clearly there is a debate about what by the EU. will happen to structural and cohesion funds in future, I shall set out the steps that the coalition has already given that new member states are now involved and taken to drive through improvements since we took want to see investment to help grow their economies. office in May. It is worth reminding the House that the They also want value for money; they do not want European Court of Auditors report relates to 2009, billions of pounds handed over if it makes no difference prior to the time that the coalition Government were in on the ground. As member states, we need to drive that office. In October, when I was in Brussels having some agenda and point out that it is unacceptable for a of my meetings in relation to the EU budget, I took the 16th audit report not to be given the statement of opportunity to meet the Commissioner in charge of assurance. At the same time, we must have a positive financial management in the EU, Commissioner Šemeta, agenda to work with member states to improve not only to talk about our concerns and some of our ideas, and our own ability to control the finances and funds that to push the case for transparency and sound financial come from the EU, but the ability of other member management. I believe the Commissioner was receptive, states to do so. and I think he understood that in his role, that needs to be a more fundamental priority than it has been for Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): Does the Minister Commissioners in his position in the past. Since then, accept that even when the EU controls its money within we have had a firm but constructive line throughout the its rules, it still manages to waste it? I am thinking in negotiations among the member states. Let us not forget particular of a beautiful hotel I visited in Spain that was that they are responsible for management of 80% of in the middle of nowhere—unless one was a skydiver, EU funds spent. there was no reason to visit the local village. It seemed a total waste of public money. The Government and other like-minded member states have pushed for concrete processes in several areas. Justine Greening: My hon. Friend demonstrates exactly First, at the pan-European level we must have further why there is a far broader debate to be had on the EU simplification of what are excessively complex rules that budget and how the money is spent. Tonight we are often hinder, rather than help, strong decision making debating whether the money has been spent in the way that drives strong value for taxpayers’ money. We must that member states agreed when they negotiated how push EU-level auditing toward a more risk-based and and on what basis the investment would be split between proportionate system. Simply checking through receipts different countries and what the priorities would be for in member states that are randomly selected really will our individual taxpayers. not work in future. We need to move towards a system The Government are determined to bear down on the where the European Court of Auditors operates a risk-based size of the budget as a priority. We led the debate on approach, where the focus is on member states for limiting the EU 2011 budget in a way that other member which there seems to be evidence of poorer and weaker states, at the time when we began to gather support, financial management, and where we understand exactly perhaps thought was ambitious. In fact, it worked. My where the management is breaking down in those processes hon. Friend will be aware that, as we go into the and control systems. We are keen to ensure that what we fundamental debate about the financial perspective and do at the level of the European Court of Auditors is the longer-term budget, we will also set the parameters— done more effectively than it has been in the past, and I with countries such as France and Germany, which, plan to meet the European Court of Auditors to discuss alongside us, are net contributors and, therefore, absolutely those issues. want to see that money spent effectively—within which We are also encouraging member states to take greater that debate can take place. responsibility for the funds that they implement, which, Having led the debate on the amount, there is then a as I have said, is the vast majority of the budget. In need to start leading the debate within that about practice, that means that we are lobbying for member priorities and ensuring, as my hon. Friend says, that we states’ annual summaries to be upgraded and published. do not have wasteful spending on administration or, as 985 Court of Auditors 2009 Report2 FEBRUARY 2011 Court of Auditors 2009 Report 986 the hon. Member for Luton North said, by individual meetings, including the meeting that I plan to have with member states. We have to drive out waste at the EU the European Court of Auditors, and the work that we level. That is what we are trying to do at the national are doing with the European Commission and MEPs in level, and it is unacceptable not to go through the same the European Parliament, there is a sense that people process at the EU level, too. are receptive to the need to improve financial management and want to see that happen. Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con): My hon. Friend I am keen and grateful for this House’s support for talks a great talk about clamping down on the EU’s the Government in pursuing that agenda, because that excesses, but will she please explain why our net contribution is vital. It was important that we could go into the has gone up and will continue to go up, and why she is negotiations saying that as a Parliament we stood behind not reducing the amount that we contribute to the EU, the motion on bearing down on the EU economy and when we are having to make reductions in Britain—at our decision that a 6% rise was unacceptable. We can home? learn lessons from that. We as a Parliament need to Justine Greening: We are doing slightly more than stick together and show solidarity in tackling these talking a good talk. I share my hon. Friend’s concern issues. That is one step that we must take. that one key thing driving the budget up was the previous Even my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), Government’s disastrous approach to negotiating the in his role as Chairman of the European Scrutiny common agricultural policy, which saw us give away a Committee, has a role to play, together with his fellow- huge chunk of our abatement and, over this Parliament, chairmen of scrutiny committees across Europe, in will cost the British taxpayer about £10 billion. That is pushing this sort of issue to the top of the agenda. We totally unacceptable. He says that it is important we have to be prepared to say in all channels that we must bear down on excesses, and I agree. That is one reason get an EU budget that becomes affordable, that is spent why we led the debate to stop the European Parliament’s on the right priorities, and that is managed in the right proposal for a 6% rise in spending. We achieved that, way. His role is also vital in being able to back up some and we are now trying to ensure that, when we go into Governments while perhaps pressing those for whom the longer-term debate about the financial perspective this has been less of a priority to put it further up their over the next seven years, which starts in 2014, we begin list of priorities in future. to see real-terms reductions. Countries such as France and Germany are backing us up on that, and those are Mr Cash: This is not in any sense directed at my hon. the first steps towards delivering what we want. Friend personally, but one of the big problems in My hon. Friend is right that we need to go beyond implementing the Lisbon treaty is the increased functions words and start delivering, and that is absolutely what of the EU. Increasing functions increases expenditure, we want to do. For tonight, the key aspect is how we can and increasing expenditure has tended to increase the ensure that, when we have “decisioned” the funds, the amount of irregularities. I am sure she will understand final building block, which is about financial management, my concern about the manner in which we are is delivered professionally, robustly and with an integrity Europeanising not only our own domestic economy, that companies would recognise. We have to move towards with European economic governance and all the other a better system than the one we have picked up. things that go with it, but inviting ourselves into the We are also keen to see some quickly taken measures arena of a black hole where other member states do not and short-term gains, such as a one-stop shop that understand the rules and do not much care about them provides better information to those member states either. implementing EU funds, and a published scorecard of recovery orders against member states. That sort of Justine Greening: My hon. Friend will know that transparency will start to change the culture, but we Conservative Members, in particular, had a range of have to question how we have reached the position of concerns about the Lisbon agenda. poor financial management in which we find ourselves. The answer is partly down to culture, which has to Mr Cash: I did not mean the Lisbon agenda: I said change and improve at the EU and member state levels. the Lisbon treaty. I think that the Lisbon agenda has Sound financial management is critical, and it brings been an almighty disaster and that the 2020 strategy us closer to our overarching aim, which is a budget that would fare no better. The Lisbon treaty is the instrument delivers value for money for British and EU citizens. As that increases the functions. I hope I am trying to get over, that is not a negative agenda, because securing better value for money is a Justine Greening: Let me pick my words more carefully. positive thing to do. It is what we are doing; it is what My hon. Friend is right that Conservative Members taxpayers want to see us doing; and it is what all had deep concerns about the content of the Lisbon member states should want to do themselves. We believe treaty at the time. That is one reason why, as a party, we that we have a positive agenda, and it is not just about pushed to have a referendum before going into and picking or prioritising the right objectives. Last year, signing off on the Lisbon treaty. It is a matter of deep our excellent debate in the House about the EU budget regret that the previous Government chose not to give was a good chance for Members to discuss those objectives. the British people their chance to have a say on the We should return to that over the coming months, but changes that were proposed via the Lisbon treaty. critically we have to ensure that, when we have “decisioned” The challenge in my role is to ensure that, in terms of EU money, it is spent and implemented effectively. where we are today, I stand up for our interests in As I said, only yesterday I met Mr Donchev, the Britain. One way we need to do that as a Government is Bulgarian Minister overseeing the administration of to tackle some of the fundamental weaknesses in how EU funds in Bulgaria. I am pleased that alongside such the EU works, but my particular concern is financial 987 Court of Auditors 2009 Report2 FEBRUARY 2011 Court of Auditors 2009 Report 988

[Justine Greening] overall budget review and a discussion on the financial perspective. In other words, they gave it up in return for management, not only at the EU level but at the member a debate. That was a terrible deal for the UK taxpayer. state level as funds are spent. I assure my hon. Friend that I will take every opportunity I am sure that other Members will rightly want to I get, as I am sure he will, to make sure that people have their say on this, so before I finish let me quickly remember just how badly the previous Government turn to the issue of fraud, which is of great concern to dealt with this whole area, and just how badly they let the Government and to hon. Members. I want to be down the UK people when it came to standing up for absolutely clear that of course any level of fraud is our interests in Brussels and having the judgment to completely unacceptable. We fully support the work of make the right call on behalf of the UK taxpayer. That the Commission and of the European anti-fraud office, relates not just to the rebate, but to the Lisbon treaty. OLAF.I am pleased that the European Court of Auditors reports very low levels of fraud in the UK. In 2009, we Mr Davidson: I agree completely with what the hon. had a rate of just 0.19 of 1% of spending, but it is still Lady said about the appalling deal that was reached by too high. The Government and I will focus on that as the previous Government. I and many of my colleagues we look at how we can tackle this problem. We are took that view at the time. therefore deeply concerned that, according to the latest Does the hon. Lady agree that the rising fraud figures OLAF report, the level of fraud seems to be increasing should be approached with caution, because they are at the European Union level. often an indication of rising detection rates, which are It would be wise for me to point out that the to be welcomed? Has she made a study of the matter Commission’s figures have to be interpreted with care. that leads her to believe that some countries are starting As we know, fraud and irregularities are not the same to take it more seriously? I used to visit the EU when I thing. Irregularities make up the bulk of the available was a member of the Public Accounts Committee. We figures. To my mind, irregularities are also a serious were constantly asked to redefine the rules so that concern, because they are payments that have been things would no longer be counted as fraud or irregularities made outside the rules. We should not find that acceptable. because the goalposts had moved. I hope that she The figures quoted by OLAF for suspected fraud are would not be amenable to such a settlement of these increasing. It is not possible to say that fraud is increasing, issues. but there are indications that that may be the case. Even an increase in suspected fraud is unacceptable. The best Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman is right, and way to tackle fraud, irregularities, waste and the lack of the discussion with the Bulgarian Finance Minister priorities is ultimately to have better systems, financial yesterday showed that statistics can take us only so far. processes and financial controls, and a better regime for There had been a debate about why Bulgaria had spent financial management in the first place. only a very small proportion of the funds that had been committed to it, but actually, if there is difficulty in Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): My hon. spending those funds effectively, it is good for Bulgaria Friend is right to identify those measures that need to not to get through all of them until the problems are be put in place. Is she aware of whether that is happening sorted out. in the European Union? The hon. Gentleman may be right that there is now a better ability to detect suspected fraud, and he is right Justine Greening: To my mind, that is the work that that there is substantive change to be made beyond this we need to ensure happens. I met Commissioner Šemeta debate. We need to consider how individual member in October 2002 to discuss his plan to improve financial states can work within the rules to ensure that they are management across the EU. The challenge for the more effective and do not create dysfunctional decisions Government, which I set out for him and to which he and systems at national level. The Court of Auditors was receptive, is to make that stronger and better, and needs to take a risk-based approach to examining how to make it more of a priority for the EU as a whole. As spend is managed, and it needs to work more proactively hon. Members have pointed out, there is a long way to with member states so that improvements take place to go, but I assure the House that we are making a start. address the problems that it uncovers. There is a clear agenda to be taken forward. Mr Carswell: My hon. Friend was right to highlight I look forward to hearing what hon. Members have that a very bad financial deal was negotiated for the to say. We have debated this matter on many occasions, United Kingdom under the previous Administration. which shows how important it is. When the UK Does she therefore think it right that we should promote Government and the UK people are having to take and some of the senior Treasury officials who were responsible bear the consequences of such difficult decisions, it for those negotiations to senior positions in UKRep? would not be acceptable if we did not go through the same process at EU level with the same intensity. The Justine Greening: Let us be clear that the responsibility Government are determined, and I am determined, to for the catastrophic decision on the EU rebate is fairly ensure that we lead that agenda at EU level. I hope that and squarely political. I hope that the shadow Minister with the support of the House, we will be able to have will tell the House why somebody in the Cabinet and some success in doing so. the former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, thought it was a good idea to give up the equivalent of £10 billion in 8.6 pm rebate over the course of this Parliament, in return for a common agricultural policy review that has taken years Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I, too, welcome to come through and will ultimately be part of an the fact that this debate is taking place on the Floor of 989 Court of Auditors 2009 Report2 FEBRUARY 2011 Court of Auditors 2009 Report 990 the House rather than in European Committee B, as it something to be looked at when the programme is up has in previous years. It is somewhat ironic that although and running and the time for scrutiny is upon us. There having it here enables many more Members to take is also a need to consult member states more, because part, it means that we have only an hour and a half to often it is implementation at member state level rather discuss the matter rather than the two and a half hours than at Commission level that leaves something to be allowed in Committee. desired. Member states must have effective monitoring The Minister was thorough in her explanation of the and management arrangements too. In particular, they Government’s stance and very generous in taking should ensure that their compliance systems for spending interventions from Back Benchers. I am aware that at cohesion funds are every bit as rigorous as their compliance least half a dozen Back Benchers want to take part in systems on other matters. the debate and that we are already 40 minutes into a The UK took the initiative to enhance its reporting 90-minute debate, so I shall be quite brief. Also, the through the annual consolidated statement on the use Minister answered quite a few of the questions that I of EU funds in the UK, which is audited by the National wanted to ask. There is always a problem in dealing Audit Office and presented to Parliament. The Minister with Court of Auditors reports because of the time lag advised the House earlier that only four other member involved. We are now debating the 2009 report in 2011, states have adopted that model. I would be grateful if so it is useful that we have heard about what has the UK Government continued to press other EU happened in the intervening period. Governments to adopt a similar model and to introduce It is, of course, disappointing that for the 16th year in that element of transparency and accountability to succession, the Court of Auditors has been unable to their processes. provide a positive statement of assurance on payments Are the Government generally optimistic about future from the EU budget because of weaknesses that it has improvements in financial management? I appreciate identified in the procedures for financial control and that it is difficult to forecast such things, but when does management. In fact, it is not just disappointing; as the the Minister believe we are likely to see a positive Minister said, it is entirely unacceptable that we are yet statement of assurance? Is next year a realistic goal to again in that position. work towards, or are we still some way off meeting that I welcome the fact that for the third year in a row, the objective? Can progress be monitored better within Court has given an unqualified positive statement of year, and can ongoing improvements be made, so that assurance concerning the reliability of the EU accounts. we do not have to wait for the annual report from the It is important to stress that that has happened, but it is European Court of Auditors, when we are inevitably by no means satisfactory that the Court is not prepared disappointed by the lack of progress? to sign off on the payments, which means that considerable I am very much aware of the time, but I should like to sums are not going where they should and money is make a few comments on specific concerns in the report, being paid out wrongly, whether through fraud—as the in particular in respect of agriculture and cohesion Minister said, that is at quite a low level but is still a funds. In agriculture, the court says that the single matter for concern—or through error. It is important payment scheme and single area payment scheme, including that we continue to address the issue. specifically problems with ineligible land and over- The direction of travel is correct. In the 2003 budget, declarations of land, are the most urgent issues. The only 6% of payments were identified as being free from court also identified the need to avoid, in co-operation error, which improved to 47% in 2008. I understand that with national authorities, the payment of ineligible the figure is now around the 60% mark or more. That grants for fisheries projects. Has the Minister discussed progress is far too slow and it is vital for progress to be that with her colleagues in the Department for Environment, made more rapidly, because apart from anything else, Food and Rural Affairs? Are they pursuing the matter the failure to sign off the accounts year after year at European level? If so, can she advise the House on understandably undermines public confidence in the what progress has been made? EU and public support for EU membership. Naturally, Cohesion funds, which have already been flagged up people want to know that the EU is spending money as a great concern, account for 30% of EU expenditure, wisely and well, particularly in difficult economic times so we are talking about very significant sums of money. when there is belt tightening and concern about how Uniquely, the rate of material error is above 5%, even if money is spent in this country. it declined from 11% last year. We are travelling in the We need more transparency and accountability in right direction, but that rate is still clearly unacceptable. EU spending. Crucial to that, as the Minister said, is I note that the auditors recommend that the Commission simplifying the procedures and processes of the allocation encourage the more rigorous application of corrective of EU money. The Court of Auditors has identified mechanisms by national authorities, to ensure that member complex rules and regulations and complicated or unclear states do not substitute ineligible expenditure with new eligibility criteria as key factors in the high level of expenditure. Will the Minister advise us on what progress error, particularly in respect of structural and cohesion is being made to ensure that the control system for the funds. Dealing with that as an ongoing, iterative process 2007-2013 programming period will be effective? What must be a priority, and I welcome the fact that the is being done about the application of procurement Minister is making those points in an ongoing dialogue rules in member states, which is also identified as a key with people in the EU, including the Commissioner for concern? financial management, and not simply making them on The Minister said that a scorecard of recovery orders this annual occasion. would be useful. It is worrying that the overall rate of The Commission should try to ensure that future recovery from beneficiaries who receive EU cohesion programmes are designed to allow more effective control funds incorrectly has fallen. It is clearly unacceptable. and monitoring; that should not be an afterthought or Does the Minister have any idea why the recovery rate is 991 Court of Auditors 2009 Report2 FEBRUARY 2011 Court of Auditors 2009 Report 992

[Kerry McCarthy] One of the elements at the heart of that is the responsibilities of what is called OLAF, the European moving in the wrong direction, and may I urge her to Anti-Fraud Office. I would like to refer to OLAF’s flag that up as something that needs to be addressed as mission statement, which is on page 729 of this mammoth a matter of urgency? bundle of motion documents. I can barely hold it up, I repeat the point that I made earlier. This needs to be actually—but fortunately, my wrists are quite strong. an ongoing and iterative process, and we need to keep a The mission statement says: very close eye on it. There is consensus across the House “The mission of the European Anti-Fraud Office…is to protect on the need to push this up the policy agenda and I am the financial interests of the European Union, to fight fraud, glad that the Minister is doing what she can to push corruption and any other irregular activity”. other EU Governments to address the issue. We will do Hon. Members should note the last words, especially what we can to support her in those efforts. when people talk about actual proven fraud. And by the way, with regard to the cohesion funds, the documents that the European Scrutiny Committee has examined 8.15 pm note that the survey in question is only a sample survey— that is something that always fills me with considerable Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I do not need to reservations—not a full audit of the kind that one speak for very long on this matter, for the simple reason might have expected from the National Audit Office. that I have been making the same speech about different Indeed, I would go further and say that if we made it auditors’ reports for the last 26 years. I am afraid that Government policy to insist that no standards lower nothing much has changed. The Economic Secretary is than those of the NAO and the Comptroller and Auditor a very dedicated Minister and I have great enthusiasm General should be applied to the European Union, we for what she seeks to achieve. She puts the best possible would really be getting somewhere. Frankly, if the NAO face on the situation, but unfortunately nothing changes: had the opportunity to have a go at these 1,035 pages, plus ça change. plus all the supporting documents, or if it had the The reality is that the British taxpayer is, as the opportunity at least to get entrenched in the system, as I Minister has rightly admitted, under severe duress. We have said many times in the past that it should, so that are having to cut back and implement austerity measures, NAO standards and principles were applied to those but at the same time this report—which, for the audited accounts, we might just begin to see some 16th consecutive year, has not been signed off— relationship between costs and benefits. demonstrates that there are serious errors and mistakes The reality, however, is that vast sums of money—our in the system. Those errors consist not merely in the net contributions and all the rest of it—are poured into manner in which the accounts have been presented, or that black hole, and it does not work. I am not going to in the fact that irregularities and fraud have been identified, enlarge on all the reasons, which worry me, for our slow but in the very system that has been created. Because of economic growth, which in my opinion have something the nature of the problem and its range—and the fact to do with the fact that what we have out there is a dead that the documents relating to this debate run parrot. The European Union is a system that is incapable to 1,035 pages—it is impossible in 90 minutes to do of growth—indeed, growth is liable to decrease, compared more than give a general survey of where the whole with that in China, India and the rest—and on top of problem lies. all that, we have the problems of audit and irregularities I mentioned Bulgaria and Romania. The European that the report demonstrates. Scrutiny Committee said that it was inappropriate for The statement on OLAF’s mandate says: them to be brought into the accession procedure when “In pursuing this mission in an accountable, transparent and they were, for all the reasons that we identified, which cost-effective manner, OLAF aims to provide a quality service to included the fraud that exists in those two countries. I the citizens of Europe.” am glad that the Economic Secretary has had a meeting with the Minister responsible for audit in Bulgaria, but OLAF’s mandate covers I have to say that I do not think that the culture in that “all EU expenditure and part of the revenue side of the budget. It country will change very much because of a meeting. includes the general budget, budgets administered by the Union The cohesion funds—from the figures that I have already or on its behalf, certain funds not covered by the budget but administered by EU agencies”— given—are clearly exploited and seriously misused. They represent a significant proportion of the problem. We perhaps that includes the External Action Service, which have a serious problem that is deeply entrenched in I hope we will look at in due course— the system. “and extends to all measures affecting the Union’s assets.” As the Minister knows well, I proposed that we That is a very big remit, and I have my reservations should not only reject the proposals put before us in a about that state of affairs. debate some months ago, but reject the increase in the The statement continues: budget, and I am glad that the House agreed to do just that. But that is only one side of the equation. The other “OLAF’s status is hybrid in nature. It is part of the Commission”. is the vast sum of money being allocated for the purpose Would we have much confidence in the NAO if it were of running this failing European Union. I do not ask part of the Government? I very much doubt it. OLAF is the Minister to agree with me on that point, because it supposed to be responsible for would be politically incorrect to do so, but the reality “developing and monitoring the implementation of the EU’s is that it is a failing system. However, I do not need anti-fraud policies. However it has a measure of budgetary and to rehearse the arguments that I have already given for administrative autonomy, which reinforces the total independence why that is. with which OLAF conducts investigations.” 993 Court of Auditors 2009 Report2 FEBRUARY 2011 Court of Auditors 2009 Report 994

Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend agree that one of Mr Davidson: I was making a much more specific the problems is that it apparently takes 25 months on point a moment ago. I was referring not to schools in average—more than two years—for OLAF to conduct Europe in general but to the schools that are run by or its investigations, and that only 56% of cases have led to on behalf of the European institutions themselves, of follow-up action? which there is at least one in the United Kingdom. A comparison of that school with a similar-sized school Mr Cash: That is the problem. It is easy for us in this elsewhere in the UK would be enormously informative House to make scattergun criticisms of bureaucrats, to parents and everyone else. Such an exercise would civil servants and the rest of it, but the real problem is help to overcome the difficulties that we have in explaining that if something does not work, we have to mend the magnitude of the sums involved. it—and there is no evidence of that happening. I had an exchange with Lord Kinnock when he was Mr Cash: I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman’s responsible for these matters, and set up the new OLAF concern. If he would like to write to me about it, I arrangements. He got a bit shirty with me in a Select would be more than happy to take the matter up in the Committee some years ago. People like Marta Andreasen European Scrutiny Committee if we have an opportunity were thrown out, and even before then, there was another to do so. We are going through a process of reinvigorated chap whose name I cannot remember— European scrutiny, as I hope he has noticed, and we are determined to get to the bottom of certain issues. This Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): Paul van is one of them. Buitenen. I do not want to take up too much time, because many others want to speak. I will simply make the Mr Cash: Exactly. The trouble is that the moment general point that this is a failing system with a failed anyone starts to get to grips with what is going on, the accountancy system, and the taxpayer is being badly steel shutters come down and people are thrown out of affected by the way in which these matters are being the European institutional arrangements simply for asking conducted. There are always paragons of virtue, but questions that would be regarded as completely normal this system falls so far below the threshold of what is in any proper democratic system. That is the essence of required that the whole thing needs shaking up. In a the problem. nutshell, I would like to see principles of the same kind As I have said, I could enlarge at great length on the that apply to the National Audit Office applied to the contents of these 1,035 pages, and every word would be European Union, so that the people there can be roasted entirely relevant because they are so important. Huge when they get it wrong. sums of taxpayers’ money and resources are being churned into this failing quagmire. This is not just the 8.29 pm ranting of a Eurosceptic; it is the reality of what affects Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): It is a pleasure the daily lives of the people of this country, and we to follow the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), who seem to be prepared to go along with it. does such an excellent job in chairing the European Scrutiny Committee, of which I have the honour to be a Mr Davidson: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that member and in which I do my best under his chairmanship. part of the difficulty of conveying these issues to the The problem that we face has existed for many years. electorate is that the sums involved are so enormous? It This is the 14th speech that I have made on these is difficult for people to understand sums of £10 million matters. I made the first 13 in European Standing here and £100 million there. As the Chair of the European Committees, and I am pleased to be able to make this Scrutiny Committee, would he consider undertaking a one on the Floor of the House. Although we are given piece of work that looked at the value for money less time on the Floor of the House, there is a greater provided by a European operation in this country? An focus on debates here and they gain a higher status. example would be the European schools, some of which are situated here. Why does not he compare the cost of Although I may have said the same thing repeatedly a European school with the cost of a normal school? It for 14 years, at least the numbers change. Let me would make sense to people if they could see the introduce a few facts to the debate. In agriculture, which extravagance that the European Union applies in such I mentioned earlier, the number of reported irregularities circumstances. That would bring it all home to people increased by 43% in a single year. The number of far more than any number of quotations involving irregularities relating to cohesion policy increased by zillions. about 20%, and the number of irregularities involving pre-accession funds by 35%. Those are significant figures. Mr Cash: I rather agree. It would be very nice for me My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry to be able to make a comparison between the different McCarthy) cited some of the positive conclusions of kinds of school systems, but this is not only about the report by the Court of Auditors. The big negative is schools; it is about everything that moves. The reality is that it was that this all-pervasive, all-encompassing ectoplasm has “unable to give a positive Statement of Assurance on the legality managed to work its way into every nook and cranny of and regularity of expenditure in the areas of agriculture and our lives. It slips under doors and through windows, natural resources, cohesion, research, energy and transport, external and it is absorbing us to the point at which we are being aid, development and enlargement and education and citizenship”. totally Europeanised. Within that framework, our taxpayers’ That is pretty much what the budget is about. There is money is being absorbed into the bloodstream of the not much left, really. European Union, and the monitoring and accounting is inadequate, which is what this European Court of Auditors Henry Smith: Does the hon. Gentleman believe that, report is all about. despite the best and, I believe, sincere efforts of Her 995 Court of Auditors 2009 Report2 FEBRUARY 2011 Court of Auditors 2009 Report 996

[Henry Smith] someone else thought appropriate, the system would be much better. The CAP will cause more difficulty, because Majesty’s Government, the Court of Auditors will ever when it comes into full effect in respect of the new be able to sign off an EU budget? I doubt it. member states, it will cost much more than anybody anticipated. That is because wages have risen in those Kelvin Hopkins: The evidence that we have seen so far countries, so the cost of subsidising agriculture in them is not very encouraging, is it? I must say that I agree will be much higher. There are ongoing problems with with the hon. Gentleman. the CAP and we ought seriously to suggest to the The hon. Member for Stone made the serious point European Union that the CAP should be abolished, by that the Court of Auditors is not really a separate being phased out or whatever. Let us give notice that we organisation in the sense that the National Audit Office want it abolished—let us say within the next five years, is in Britain. I should like it to be much stricter. If it in order to give France time to adjust. That would save were stricter, it might reveal even more irregularities a lot of problems, as a range of difficulties in the budget and fraud than it does now, and might bring the European would disappear. Union into even greater negative focus. Other areas of the budget have problems, too. The At the end of our last presidency, I urged the suggestion that I have made several times in the Chamber Government—from the other side of the Chamber—to and in Committee is that we should get rid of the call for the abolition of the common agricultural policy, budget in its current form, which is about fiscal transfers. which is the main problem in relation to the budget. We It is about transferring income or money from the more were given endless assurances about reform of the CAP wealthy nations to the poorer ones; it is a redistribution at that time. Apparently, at the end of our presidency, policy. It does not work very well because of the formulaic the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, went to the European way in which it is done, with some countries unfairly Union to call for its reform, if not its abolition, but contributing too much and other countries unfairly what he came back with was no reform at all. As was receiving too much. pointed out by the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, Let us suppose that there were no such thing as the he had given away a substantial proportion of our CAP and all the other budgetary arrangements, and the rebate. According to her, it amounted to some £10 billion European Union simply transferred a substantial sum over a five-year Parliament, or £2 billion a year, which is to countries that needed it from countries that could four times the sum that the Government plan to save by afford to pay. For example, we might contribute 0.5% of abolishing education maintenance allowance. Tony Blair our gross domestic product and Romania might receive gave that money away, and not one question was raised 1% of its GDP. A lump sum would be handed over to before he did it. Apparently he did it on the spur of the the Governments of the countries involved and they would moment, hardly even checking with the then Chancellor then decide how to spend that largesse. That would be of the Exchequer. more accountable because those Governments would The Economic Secretary and others have mentioned be accountable to their own electorates. At the moment, the previous Government. I believe that the former no direct accountability is involved and we cannot do Prime Minister, who is still a Member of Parliament—my much to control the budget spending, but the member right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and states themselves, with their own democratic Parliaments Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown)—was on our side, in a sense. and Governments, could control that spending. That He prevented us from joining the European single currency could be done in Britain at least and one hopes that that despite immense pressure from Tony Blair and others, would spread to other countries. and it could be said that by doing so he saved us from I have suggested many times that instead of having worse difficulties. this complicated arrangement of special budgets for all sorts of different things, we should have a system of a Mr Davidson: Does my hon. Friend accept that, at simple payment each year from the more wealthy countries this moment, there are more Members on the Government to the poorer countries, in proportion to their living Benches who are in favour of joining the euro than standards. So the wealthiest nations would give according there are on our Benches? to their wealth and the poorer nations would receive according to their need. Kelvin Hopkins: I do not see many Members on any Benches who are in favour of it at the moment, and I Henry Smith: Does the hon. Gentleman think that am greatly encouraged by that. I believe that we have a the concept of zero-based budgeting would be helpful? kind of common sense. I should say to the Economic Secretary that I appreciate Kelvin Hopkins: The hon. Gentleman would have to her sincerity. I believe that she will fight as hard as she explain the position to me, because I am not an accountant, can to support our interests, and the interests of the but if there were no budget and no European Union at European Union as a whole as well. It is important for all, that would solve the problem entirely. Given that we other countries as well as ours that we get these things are generous by nature and would want to help our right as much as we can. As the hon. Member for Stone fellow European countries to develop, some sort of has suggested, the Economic Secretary and everybody transfer might be helpful and the European Union else faces serious inherent problems when considering would be a way of doing it. So I am not against the idea these matters. It is the system. of wealthy countries contributing to poorer countries, The common agricultural policy is one of those but the current cumbersome approach, which invites problems. If it did not exist and member states simply corruption and irregularity, is not the way to do it and managed their own agricultural industries, choosing to does not work out fairly. I have made my suggestion a subsidise where they thought appropriate, not where number of times and I hope that, in time, our Government 997 Court of Auditors 2009 Report2 FEBRUARY 2011 Court of Auditors 2009 Report 998 at least will take it seriously. Perhaps we will be able to the results of that discussion are reported back to the debate that in the European Councils themselves and European Parliament, which is why lucky people such discuss completely changing the method by which these as me know about them. That debate rarely lasts longer fiscal transfers take place. I have made my point and I than a few hours and very few countries seem to care. have spoken for long enough. Rarely does anyone question why money cannot be accounted for correctly, and the purpose of that meeting Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Before I call is pretty much to rubber stamp the accounts. To give the next speaker, may I remind hon. Members that at credit to the Dutch Government, a few years ago they 8.54 pm I am going to call the Minister to do a three-minute decided to take a stand against the waste of their wind-up? There are three speakers to come. The first citizens’ hard-earned cash and they have been finding a will be Chris Heaton-Harris. few friends more recently. However, I am very wary that what the Minister has said is very similar to what her Labour predecessors have said. This year, the discussion 8.39 pm and the vote take place on 15 February. Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): Thank you, Alas, the same cannot be said of the British Government Mr Deputy Speaker. I just hope that my maths is better as of the Dutch Government. In all the time that the than that of the European Commission, so that I know right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath how long to speak for. There is one thing that everybody (Mr Brown) was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, seems to know about Europe, which is that the European neither he nor his Department ever raised any questions Commission’s accounts are not being signed off—this is about the state of the Commission’s accounts in those the 16th year running that that has happened. What meetings. He nodded through the accounts like everyone most people do not know and what never gets reported else. The amount of money that is estimated to go is that after the Court of Auditors gives its opinion, a missing each year is between £3 billion and £8 billion, very long process starts, which lasts at least nine months which roughly corresponds to the UK’s net contribution and gives MEPs and the Council of Ministers the to the EU every year. power to look into every euro and cent that the Commission has spent in the previous year. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): If these vast The plain fact is that the Court has no power over the sums of irregular, fraudulent or wasteful expenditure European budget. I shall say that again: the headlines were being talked about in relation to the UK, the we read every year about accounts not being signed off Chamber would be packed with people on both sides refer to an institution that has no power over the who would be outraged. Would the hon. Gentleman institution it is checking. The European Parliament and care to speculate on why more Members on both sides Council, by contrast, have genuine power. If either of of the House are not more concerned about this ongoing them refused to grant discharge—to sign off the waste, fraud and irregularity? Why does he think that accounts—or even if they questioned strongly the measures the accounts are just passed on the nod? that the Commission had taken, the Commission would, although not compelled to resign, be under considerable pressure to sort out the problems within its accounts Chris Heaton-Harris: I shall come back to that in a and accounting systems once and for all. There is a ton moment, but I think it is because the money is spent so of jargon around the budget discharge process, but the far away in such a disjointed fashion. It goes up through process itself deserves a lot more scrutiny from the a system: it goes through our taxes, goes to the European press, public and parliamentarians alike. Commission and is spent by third parties. It is all very confused and distant and I think that people are just The Court of Auditors seems almost embarrassed bored by the fact that the accounts are not being signed about its refusal to sign off the Commission’s accounts off. It is a huge shame. and give that positive statement. It is amazingly difficult to find that information in the Court’s own report. As The Court of Auditors bowed to political pressure a soon as the Court publishes its report, a debate is held long time ago and no longer gives a figure on the in the plenary session of the European Parliament, the percentage of money it thinks is being spent incorrectly Committee on Budgetary Control considers the report, or wastefully, so for years now we have not had any various questions are asked and eventually the European solid figures with which to work. As a former Dutch Parliament and the Council of Ministers decide whether member of the Court of Auditors, who retired recently, to refuse or grant discharge. said: The European Parliament has never decided not to “There was a practice of watering down if not completely grant discharge, so for the past 16 years the Court has removing criticism...All these abuses never came out in the open refused to sign off the accounts and the Council and the because of the Kremlin-style information we provided. But it European Parliament have refused to take the Court’s didn’t enhance our reputation one bit...I had to threaten to resign as head of the investigation and to inform the outside world” advice. They have just said, “Carry on chaps; it’s all going pretty well.” Let me give a political example. to get some of this information out. We have some real Back in April 2008, when I was still a Member of the problems. European Parliament, Labour MEPs voted, as usual, as The accounts are pretty poor. People compare the they always have, to let that farce carry on, whereas problems with those accounts with the problems that Conservatives MEPs voted against it. We numbered the Department for Work and Pensions has with its over half the entire opposition in the European Parliament accounts, but EU accounts involve perhaps between and the discharge was given by 582 votes to 49. 2% and 5% going missing each year through fraud and Concurrently, there is also a debate in the European irregularities, if not a lot more, while the Department Council among member state Finance Ministers, and for Work and Pensions qualifies about 1% and deals 999 Court of Auditors 2009 Report2 FEBRUARY 2011 Court of Auditors 2009 Report 1000

[Chris Heaton-Harris] We mentioned r sums that are too large to imagine. A total of ¤8.5 billion was spent failing to improve with millions upon millions of transactions. The European infrastructure in Sicily. Given the lack of time, I shall Commission simply does not. not trouble the House with too much of the detail. What is our money being spent on? We would all be Suffice it to say that ¤700 million was spent to improve excited to know. Last year, Open Europe brought a water supply throughout the island, but the percentage number of things to the public’s attention: ¤411,000 for of families who experienced patchy “stop-and-flow” a dog fitness and rehabilitation centre that was never supply of water increased from 33% in 2000 to 38.7% in built, ¤16,000 to Tyrolean farmers to boost their connection 2008. I point out the fact that Sicily has a population of with the landscape and ¤7.5 million of EU funding for a only 5 million people. The subsidy amounted to £1,700 per PR campaign for more EU funding for a region of head—clearly not enough to rebuild Sicily, but enough, Spain. I would have thought, to rebuild its infrastructure. In a time of tight budgetary constraint, the Government Finally, an example that I hesitate to bring to the should make it a proper priority to use our financial House in the present circumstances—¤2.5 million was clout to sort out the problem once and for all. I believe spent on an Austrian nomadic contemporary dance that we should threaten to withhold even a small part of troupe. My hon. Friends know that I am a great fan of our contribution until we see some action that protects Austria, but I am not sure that my hard-pressed taxpayers UK taxpayers’ hard-earned cash. in Micklefield, Oakridge and Castlefield, and indeed in Disraeli, where they are particularly hard pressed, should be paying tax in order to fund a group that travels 8.45 pm around Europe meeting and dancing with other dance troupes to contribute to the development of dance. I am Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): It is a huge privilege sure none of us would condemn the funding of culture, and tremendous pleasure to rise to speak in support of but nomadic contemporary dance troupes should fund the Government in relation to the European Union. My themselves. only regret is that my Whip is not here to see the day. This is the 16th time that the statement has not been I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone signed off. We should condemn this showcase of fraud, (Mr Cash) and the hon. Member for Luton North incompetence and, where not fraudulent or incompetent, (Kelvin Hopkins), who have seen this farce go on for inappropriate spending. We are told that we cannot year after sorry year with these accounts failing to be withhold our money. What a preposterous situation we signed off. I also pay tribute to the Minister, with whom have reached when our constituents are being taxed and I spoke briefly before the debate. She obviously brings we cannot withhold money from these ridiculous projects. to this matter great sincerity, professionalism and obvious I hope that next year the Government will bring before expertise, and she has my full confidence in bringing the the House a motion that much more strongly condemns right approach to it. Having confirmed the information, such waste and fraud. Unless we deal with the problem, I know that this is a boilerplate motion, and I say to her the next important question on the EU will be simple—in that it fails robustly and resolutely to condemn fraud or out? and error in the EU. In fact, now that I know that these are not necessarily her chosen words, I might say that the motion is dreary jibberish and seems wholly futile. 8.52 pm A total of £11.8 billion went into this budget and Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): In only 8.3% of EU spending was given a clean bill of the time available, I shall try to speak without hesitation, health. Apparently, the rest was materially affected by deviation or repetition. I want to deal with one point, error. In other words, 91.7% of this public money was EuropeAid, and draw a conclusion from it. given out inappropriately. EuropeAid was found not to be perfect by the European I want to share with the House three instances in Court of Auditors. The ECA noted a high frequency of which public money was given out within the rules. non-quantifiable errors due to the lack of formalised According to Open Europe, an EU subsidy of ¤500,000 and structured demonstration of compliance with payment was given to two Swedish fishermen to scrap their conditions. It found poorly documented and ineffective fishing vessel. The subsidy was given by the Commission checks. EuropeAid was terrified by the mighty power of and the Swedish Government as part of the EU’s effort the Court of Auditors coming down before it, so what to reduce the size of Europe’s fishing fleet to address the did it say it would do? It said that it would have a little region’s huge problems with overfishing. The subsidy more training and disseminate a financial management was enough to pay off the fishermen’s debts and left toolkit. them with a substantial amount of money to spare, If I were a fraudster, I would be quaking in my boots according to their accounts. at a financial management toolkit. That comes to the Instead of winding down the business, the two fishermen nub of the problem. Bodies such as EuropeAid could bought a new boat with this EU money—taxpayers’ not give a brass farthing. The European Union is money—and continued just as before. Extraordinarily, fundamentally corrupt because it is undemocratic. There the owners were open with their plans all along and did is no check on it from electors. What can the electors of not break any rules. That is because their new boat is North East Somerset do? They can send me here to rail less than 10 metres long, which means that different against it and try to stir the Minister, but the Minister rules apply and they can continue to fish in the North needs no stirring. She is valiantly defending British sea. “We said exactly what we were going to do when we interests. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for applied for the scrapping subsidy,” one of the fishermen Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), my neighbour, is in said. agreement. 1001 Court of Auditors 2009 Report2 FEBRUARY 2011 Court of Auditors 2009 Report 1002

But what do the Government face with our European My hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris partners? When we look across the channel, we see Heaton-Harris) is right that one part of the debate that countries that have been corrupt for generations—for we did not have tonight, and which I thought might decades. With the Roman empire, we can go back to the have come up more, was the discharge process. He is tax collectors at the time of Christ who were corrupt. right to point out that we have not used that process to There is institutionalised corruption within Europe. It challenge the poor financial management. I think that is an empire that has an emperor, and the emperor has previous Governments have just signed that off and no clothes. We know that. We see the corpulent emperor said that there was no need for discussion. That is not in his fat rotundity gorging on the money of the British the position of this Government. We will start using the people. I urge Her Majesty’s Government to go along discharge process and having a discussion at the senior with my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve level, because we do not believe that we can afford Baker) and say enough is enough. They should say as not to. the great lady said—“It’s our money, and you can’t have it unless you can prove that you are spending it honestly.” Steve Baker: I welcome the Minister’s remarks, but given the figures that my hon. Friend the Member for 8.53 pm Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) quoted on the European Parliament’s voting record, does she not agree that it Justine Greening: May I say how much I appreciate seems rather futile to expect that the European Parliament the contributions made by all hon. Members across the might fail to discharge? House this evening? They were made with passion and frustration at the continued unacceptable situation of Justine Greening: Clearly, the European Parliament the European Court of Auditors persistently not being will take its decisions. I am talking about our role within able to sign off the statement of assurance that we want the European Council and the discussions that we will signed off to give us the kind of confidence that my have as a member state there. I can assure Members that hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset we are talking with other member states about why we (Jacob Rees-Mogg) was just speaking about. I can tell find this position unacceptable and to see what support hon. Members that I share their frustration. My task is there is for having that proper debate at the European to channel that deep frustration into positive steps to Council meeting on 15 February so that we can resolve address some of our concerns. some of those outstanding questions and ensure that In the short time that is left, I shall try to respond to financial management becomes a priority in a way that Members on some of the points that they have raised. it has not been in the past. The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) is Question put and agreed to. absolutely right to say that the procurement rules need Resolved, to be simplified. The recovery rate is moving in the That this House takes note of the Unnumbered Explanatory wrong direction, but we want to see it start moving in Memorandum dated 25 November 2010 submitted by HM Treasury the right direction. on the implementation of the 2009 EU budget, the Unnumbered My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) is Explanatory Memorandum dated 24 November 2010 submitted absolutely right to talk about the need for improved by the Department for International Development on the activities standards. We want to work with other member states funded by the Eighth, Ninth and Tenth European Development Funds in the financial year 2009, European Union Document to improve the ability of the European Court of Auditor No. 12393/10 and Addenda 1 and 2 on Protection of the European to perform its role. I absolutely agree with the hon. Union’s financial interests, European Union Document No. 13075/10 Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) on his and Addendum, relating to an annual report to the discharge frustration with the poor value for money that the authority on internal audits carried out in 2009, the Unnumbered common agricultural policy represents. The Government Explanatory Memorandum dated 22 October 2010 submitted by are making the case, as the previous Government started HM Treasury on the European Anti-Fraud Office’s tenth activity to make, that the fund must become better value for report for the period 1 January to 31 December 2009, and money for taxpayers. His other point about flexibility European Union Document No. 16662/10 and Addenda 1 and 2, Commission Report to the European Parliament and the Council for member states to make their own decisions on how on the follow-up to 2008 Discharge; and supports the Government’s they spend the money and meet their own priorities was continued engagement with its EU partners to improve financial quite right. management of the EU budget. 1003 2 FEBRUARY 2011 1004

Business without Debate Hospice Care Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House DELEGATED LEGISLATION do now adjourn.—(Mr Goodwill.) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), 8.58 pm Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) FINANCIAL SERVICES AND MARKETS (Con): It is a pleasure to have secured this debate on That the draft Investment Bank Special Administration Regulations palliative care and the hospice movement, particularly 2011, which were laid before this House on 10 January, be at a time when the coalition Government are taking the approved.—(Mr Goodwill.) Health and Social Care Bill through the House. It is a Question agreed to. great opportunity to talk about this important area of Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing medicine and care, particularly because I do not think Order No. 118(6)), that it is always given as much attention as it deserves. Palliative and hospice care is something that all Members FINANCIAL SERVICES AND MARKETS are aware of, because we all have constituents who are That the draft Investment Bank (Amendment of Definition) suffering with terminal or progressive illness and we all Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 10 January, be want them to die with the most dignity that can be approved.—(Mr Goodwill.) provided, in the most comfortable and supportive Question agreed to. surroundings, and we all want to ensure that their families are looked after holistically. That is why hospices are so valuable to all of us and to all our constituents. EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Notably, the previous Government and the new coalition Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Government have paid a lot of attention to cancer care, Order No. 119(11)), but the hospice movement is about not just cancer but a raft of progressive and terminal illnesses, such as heart FINANCIAL STABILISATION MECHANISM disease, lung disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary That this House takes note of European Union Documents disease and motor neurone disease. The movement is No. 9606/10, relating to a Council Regulation establishing a not just for older people, either; it looks after younger European financial stabilisation mechanism, No. 12119/10, relating to a draft amending budget No. 7 to the General Budget 2010- people and, indeed, children with terminal illnesses. Statement of expenditure by Section-Section III-Commission, and No. 17361/10, Commission Communication on the European Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I am grateful to my Financial Stabilisation Mechanism; supports the Government’s hon. Friend for securing this important Adjournment view that whilst it is in the interests of all Member States to debate. Last Friday I visited the Chestnut Tree House support a stable and fully functioning euro area, financial assistance children’s hospice, which serves my constituents and for euro area Member States should primarily be provided by those throughout Sussex, and its concern is that hospice other euro area Member States; and supports the Government’s at home and section 64 funding should not be lost in the position that the United Kingdom should not be required to contribute to the European Stability Mechanism that will permanently health reforms. Does he agree that that is important? replace both the European Financial Stability Mechanism and the European Financial Stability Facility. —(Mr Goodwill.) Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the talks about a children’s hospice, but hospice care, and Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until the valuable service that it provides to people with Wednesday 9 February (Standing Order No. 41(A). terminal and progressive illnesses, is particularly pertinent to adults. It is also important to children, however, because there is nothing more distressing than a very BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE sick child whom we know is going to die. Ordered, I shall explain why we need to invest in hospices and That, at the sitting on Wednesday 9 February, notwithstanding palliative care. The UK population is ageing significantly, the provisions of Standing Order No. 16 (Proceedings under an and we will have to look after a lot more people with Act or on European Union documents), the Speaker shall put the more than one terminal and progressive illness. By Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motion in 2033, the number of people aged 85 and over is projected the name of Secretary Theresa May relating to Police Grant to more than double to 3.3 million, and it is predicted Report not later than three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion, and shall put the Questions necessary that 8.7 million people will be 75 years or older. There is to dispose of proceedings on the Motions in the name of Secretary an ever-increasing strain on the palliative services that Eric Pickles relating to Local Government Finance not later than help to support people with co-morbidities, or several six hours after the commencement of proceedings relating to illnesses, and we need to recognise that and invest Police Grant Report; proceedings may continue after the moment properly in those services. It is often through the hospice of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) movement that such people are properly looked after shall not apply.—(Mr Goodwill.) and their families properly supported during the terminal illness. Hospice charities have many concerns, because in the past the top level of government paid insufficient attention to the role that hospices play in easing the burden on the NHS, as well as in providing a vital service for local communities. We are of course in a time of economic belt-tightening, but given the Government’s investment 1005 Hospice Care2 FEBRUARY 2011 Hospice Care 1006 in the big society, there is a unique case for supporting may want to be cared for and looked after in their own hospices and the valuable services that they provide, homes. I am sure that as part of the review we will see a alongside their role as a provider of NHS services and a greater understanding of that, and particularly of what key provider of support for families in the community. is provided in the vital outreach services looking after people in their own homes. Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): On the My hon. Friend is also right to raise the issue of point about invaluable support services, does my hon. funding for hospices. St Elizabeth hospice and Friend agree that hospices, such as Children’s Hospice St Christopher’s hospice receive only about a third of South West, which aims to build a new hospice in their income from the NHS or primary care trusts; the Cornwall to add to those it has in Devon, offer vital other two thirds are raised directly through able volunteers support to families through respite care for the children and their charity activities. The national end-of-life care whom they look after who, sadly, have terminal illnesses? strategy published in 2008 was rightly accompanied by the provision of £286 million over two years to be spent Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I to support the operation of hospices. I have to say that am delighted to hear that a new hospice is emerging in there were concerns about how that money was being her part of the country. I am sure that it will provide a spent. It is right that a review of hospice and palliative valuable service. I shall focus most of my comments on care is being carried out under the new Government. In the provision of adult care, but she is absolutely right to a recent debate in the Lords, the Parliamentary Under- talk about children’s hospices, because a sick child— Secretary, Earl Howe, said: especially one with a terminal illness—needs a lot of “A huge amount of money is being spent on end-of-life and support and care, as do their families in particular, palliative care. We know that it is often not used as it should during their illness. I am delighted that the communities be.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 15 December 2010; Vol. 723, in her part of the world are investing in that service. c. 694.] I shall now discuss the hospice movement’s background, The palliative care funding review aims to address because it teases out the key areas of support that that issue by identifying a per patient funding model for hospices provide. We all probably know that St Christopher’s adult and child palliative care services across health and hospice in Penge, south London, is likely to be identified social care. An interim report was to be published in as the first modern hospice, and I am delighted that in December that looked particularly at supporting the my constituency we have a hospice, St Elizabeth’s hospice, role of the outreach services in palliative care. That is a which provides a key service, supporting most of central very good thing. The per patient tariff is obviously a and eastern Suffolk. St Elizabeth hospice delivers a complex issue involving how much it would cost to look number of services. It has 18 in-patient beds, some of after somebody at home and how much it would cost to which are for respite care, to which my hon. Friend the look after them in the hospice setting. How, in the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) alluded. Minister’s view, will the per patient tariff apply at this These provide care to give families time off when dealing stage to looking after people at home as opposed to in with a relative who has a terminal illness, and look after the hospice? Does he think that some allowance will be people in the very last days of their life. made for the additional cost, particularly in rural areas, However, hospices do more than that. One thing that of looking after people with terminal illnesses at home is often forgotten when we talk about the hospice movement as part of an outreach service? is the very valuable outreach service that they provide to There is a great need throughout hospitals and their communities. People will want to have as good a throughout the hospice movement to have more specialist death as possible, and part of that is about supporting palliative care services. GPs and PCTs tend to associate them in being able to die, where possible, in their own those services only with cancer, and at the moment they homes in as comfortable an environment as possible. generally tend to be accessed by people with cancer. What St Elizabeth hospice does very well, as do many I hope that one thing that may come out of the palliative others, is invest in those outreach services to ensure that care review—perhaps the Minister can comment on people can die comfortably at home. this—is a greater move towards Department of Health support, through the dying days of PCTs, for a greater Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): It was my privilege to emphasis on hospices being able to reach out to people spend 12 years of my life working in the hospice movement, with other illnesses such as motor neurone disease, particularly on the fundraising side, in adults’ and in heart disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease children’s hospices. My hon. Friend raises the very and other terminal illnesses, so that we ensure that GPs important point that there is an ongoing national review and local health care providers are more in tune with of palliative care. Does he agree that it is very important that. Hospices want to do that and I am sure that the that that takes account of the full range of services that families of patients with those terminal illnesses would hospices offer, whether for children or for adults, because receive great support and benefit from such care. it is that range of services that the families and the Hospices, and indeed the sector, face a number of patients value so dearly in the hospice movement? challenges. I will raise two. First, as I have suggested, there is a need to improve relationships between hospices Dr Poulter: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for and primary care trusts. A good thing that I think will contributing to the debate given his experience. He is happen as a result of the Government’s health care absolutely right. In end-of-life care, different solutions reforms is that when local GPs, who understand the work for different families, and the whole point is to needs of the local communities, are in charge of health ensure that people and their families are supported in care, they will forge better relationships with hospices, the way that suits them. Some people may choose to die and in particular their outreach services, than there are in the comfortable surroundings of a hospice; many at the moment. Far too often in talking to hospices over 1007 Hospice Care2 FEBRUARY 2011 Hospice Care 1008

[Dr Poulter] get the funding right to ensure that hospices can plan for the future with confidence. Secondly, we need to be the past two or three weeks I have found that they do much clearer about the role that hospices can potentially not feel that there is a proper corridor or dialogue with play in end-of-life care, and have that role recognised in primary care trusts. I hope that the Minister will agree the commissioning and shaping of local services. Thirdly, that the Government’s health care reforms will better we need to establish end-of-life care as a clear priority recognise the valuable roles that hospices play in local for improvement across the NHS, using levers such as communities. the outcomes framework, the operating framework and Secondly and importantly, hospices often operate the forthcoming quality standard. under a great burden of red tape, because they fall between a number of stools. They are involved with the I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Central Charity Commission because of their charitable role, Suffolk and North Ipswich and others have concerns the Care Quality Commission, Monitor, local authorities, about funding. He will know from his recent visit the NHS commissioning board, and possibly other that St Elizabeth hospice has recently undertaken a public health regulators. Meeting all those requirements refurbishment programme. It had to raise a lot of places a great financial burden on hospices, perhaps money to pay for that work, but I am pleased to be able more so than for other NHS providers or charities that to say that part of the cost was funded from a £40 million have more discrete accountability. That needs to change. capital grant scheme that we are making available this Given that they are charities and organisations that do financial year. One of the coalition Government’s first not have a great deal of public funding, their having to actions was to confirm that funding, as an early indication answer to and be accountable to so many bodies through of our commitment to hospice care. Well over a hundred their administration is counter-productive and draws hospices, such as St Elizabeth, are receiving funding money away from patients. I would be grateful if the from that grant to help them improve their facilities. Minister outlined how the Government can reduce the My hon. Friend will know that that is part of a much administrative burden so that more of the money that larger sum that we have made available to support the hospices have goes to patients, rather than being wasted end-of-life care strategy for adults. In the current financial on administration and bureaucracy. year, £198 million was made available to help improve To conclude, there are a number of areas to applaud. the quality and range of services for people in the final The Government policy is GP-led and there will be stages of life. That was an indicative amount set by the locally sourced knowledge, which will much better recognise previous Government, and there have been doubts, the needs of local hospices. The per patient funding will expressed not least by the Public Accounts Committee, be patient-centric, which can only be a good thing. The about whether the new money for the implementation health care reforms will provide greater transparency in of the strategy was being used for its intended purpose. the delivery of funding. Of course, that all ties in with The big question is how to ensure that the funding gets the big society. through. I am grateful to the House for having this debate. I have asked a few questions and am sure that the Minister Some argue, although the argument has not been will answer them. I want hospices to have a viable and advanced tonight, that ring-fencing is the answer. I strong future in which they have more support from actually believe that it would be likely to be a retrograde public bodies, but are set free from the administrative step. It would give the NHS less flexibility, less discretion burden that holds them back and prevents them from and less scope to meet local people’s needs at precisely spending money on patients. I look forward to the the time when we need the NHS to have a more personalised Minister’s response. approach. Ring-fencing can act as a cap rather than a guarantee, putting an artificial ceiling on the amount 9.13 pm that an area can spend on end-of-life care rather than The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul encouraging that amount to be commensurate with Burstow): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member need. for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) on securing this debate and on laying out the issues so Ongoing and increasing funding for end-of-life care clearly. We must draw attention regularly and repeatedly will be part of the baseline for primary care trusts, and to the contribution that hospices make to our society. for the GP consortia that replace them. However, the As he rightly said, they are in the vanguard of the big local NHS will get freedom and responsibility in choosing society. He was right to paint the picture of the factors how it spends the taxpayers’ resources committed to that drive us to focus on the role of hospices, such as the health care. That is the key refreshing change that the demographic pressures that he described. Government’s reforms will bring about. In return, we expect much greater transparency and accountability My hon. Friend talked with eloquence about the for the decisions that are made. difference that St Elizabeth hospice makes to his constituency and his constituents. I join him in paying a By monitoring how the new end-of-life care funding warm tribute to that hospice and to the others that have has been spent, we are doing what we can to shed light been mentioned. Recently, I have had the privilege of on PCTs’ decisions and on the variations in spending visiting my local hospice, St Raphael’s, and St Ann’s that occur. Last year, for instance, just 20% of the hospice in Cheadle Hulme. I share his and other hon. money going to PCTs was allocated to hospices. We are Members’ admiration for the tremendous care and repeating the monitoring process for this year and compassion that is provided by staff in those places. conducting a survey of total PCT expenditure on specialist We want to ensure that these institutions grow and palliative care, including that provided by hospices. flourish as part of a more personalised approach to Together, that will give a clearer picture than ever of end-of-life care. How can we do that? First, we need to how different parts of the NHS make use of local 1009 Hospice Care2 FEBRUARY 2011 Hospice Care 1010 hospices in delivering care. That is an essential component years. They need to be proactive in talking with their of the picture that we need to build to ensure that good local GPs and building up the relationships and mutual commissioning takes place. connections that will be essential to how the system End-of-life care will also be given greater visibility in works, and proactive in working with local authorities, performance structures in the NHS. We have already which will play an increasingly important role in shaping published the NHS operating framework for the coming and integrating care through the health and wellbeing year, 2011-12, which emphasises the need for greater boards. Ensuring that health and social care are choice in end-of-life care. That care also figures prominently commissioned and planned together is critical in the in the outcomes framework for the NHS, which will delivery of good end-of-life care. ensure that commissioners and providers give the matter Hospices also need to be proactive in broadening priority. In fact, last month we published a set of their horizons and innovating to support a wider range performance indicators to work alongside the outcomes of people. As my hon. Friend rightly said, hospices are framework. For end-of-life care, PCTs are currently not just about cancer. We want people to be able to die planning against the indicator measuring the percentage in their own homes, where they would choose to be, and of deaths that take place in someone’s usual place of we need a more flexible and dynamic approach from residence—their own home or their care home. That both the NHS and hospices in that regard. will provide a real incentive, real traction and a real As my hon. Friend rightly pointed out—this is a key opportunity for hospices and other providers to work point—contrary to popular perception, only a small with commissioners to improve outcomes. number of people actually die in a hospice. A great Finally, as I have mentioned, the quality standard many more people benefit from their work in other that the National Institute for Health and Clinical ways. People could, for instance, receive day therapy in Excellence is working on will give clinicians, hospices a hospice, or, as is the case with the local hospice in my and health managers a clear and shared idea of what constituency, they can get help from hospice staff working best practice looks like. NICE tells me that it expects in the community, which was referred to by a number of the standard to be published by November this year. hon. Members. Children’s hospices, meanwhile, could get more involved in the long-term treatment of children Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): Naomi House rather than just end-of-life care. children’s hospice in my constituency is a fantastically We need to innovate in those partnerships. We need run hospice that raises an enormous amount of money commissioners to make imaginative use of hospices as to continue its hospice-at-home service, which recently part of their end-of-life, palliative care plans. Hospices restarted. It receives about 12% of its direct care costs must also have the ambition to explore new ways of from the Department of Health, but was told a couple offering their skills and services to NHS commissioners. of years ago that that would come to an end this year, My hon. Friend is right that we need to reach out and it is not having much luck in securing ongoing beyond cancer services—it is essential that services diversify. funding from the primary care trust, NHS Hampshire. St Christopher’s in London, which he mentioned, is What advice would the Minister give to that hospice for doing excellent work with people with dementia who the interim period before GP consortia in west Hampshire need end-of-life care. We need to focus much more on are up and running? that to deliver the national dementia strategy. I want more hospices to play a role in supporting Paul Burstow: Hospices need to continue to work to people with other degenerative conditions—not just demonstrate the huge benefits of their provision to dementia, but conditions of the sort my hon. Friend commissioners. If the hon. Gentleman writes to me, I rightly highlighted. We make that point explicitly in the will pay close attention to what is happening in that national dementia strategy, as I said, and we want to regard. reinforce it through the end-of-life care strategy. My hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and The levers and the incentives are in place to enable North Ipswich rightly mentioned the difference that GP hospices to secure NHS funding in the years ahead. But consortia will make. GPs are the best people to bring in the longer term we know that a new funding model is together the provision that I have talked about, along needed. We made it clear in the coalition agreement that with the new local health and wellbeing boards. The we want to introduce a per-patient funding system advent of GP consortia will change the relationship—quite that is built around a much clearer understanding of fundamentally, and in the right way—between hospices what level of care should be available through the NHS and GPs. It will make it natural for doctors to talk to and that is fairer and more sustainable for all providers, each other and solve problems together, and to draw on including hospices, because it moves us away from the different sources of support to help patients get what vagaries of grants—we have just heard about the problems they need. It is encouraging to note that three of the GP those cause to the children’s hospice in the constituency pathfinders—Westminster, Bristol and Somerset—are of my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester specifically looking at how they can improve end-of-life (Mr Brine)—and gives them certainty of a set level of care under the new arrangements. That is a sign of GPs’ funding per person. interest in such care, and the potential for GP-led The debate about this subject has been going on for commissioning to bring about change and to address some time and is well developed. I encourage hon. that challenge. Members who have spoken to contribute to that work. There is a new opportunity for collaboration and In July, the Secretary of State for Health appointed innovation, but hospices must not sit back—they must Tom Hughes-Hallett, the chief executive of Marie Curie actively engage. We need them to be proactive in Cancer Care, to chair an independent review covering understanding and engaging with the new systems and both adult and children’s services. That review will look structures as they settle into place over the next two at the issues raised in this debate to ensure that we have 1011 Hospice Care2 FEBRUARY 2011 Hospice Care 1012

[Paul Burstow] Hospices play a strong and distinguished part in our communities. We absolutely want them to have a bright services that reach out beyond the confines of the future. Yes, there will be challenges, not least because hospice and address the wider cost issues in rural the financial environment will affect hospices just as it communities. An interim report was published at the will affect other parts of the health system, and I can end of last year, which sets out a definition of dedicated understand the concern that that creates. But through palliative care and provides initial thoughts on how a the operating framework for the NHS, the funding new national funding system could be built. review and the wider improvements that we are making in terms of GP-led commissioning, we are creating the Stuart Andrew: Will the review take account of not right conditions for a vibrant hospice movement for the only the similarities between children’s and adult’s hospices, future. That will mean that institutions like the ones my but the differences? Respite care is a fundamental part hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North of the care that children’s hospices provide. Ipswich mentioned can continue to make a significant and valued contribution in the years ahead. Paul Burstow: I can give my hon. Friend that undertaking. Question put and agreed to. Understanding of and sensitivity to those differences will be reflected in how the review is put together. I will also ensure that this debate is brought to the attention 9.27 pm of those doing this work. House adjourned. 265WH 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) 266WH

I raised this matter in the Christmas recess Adjournment Westminster Hall debate and called on the Government for tougher action. A recent Alcohol Concern report showed that more Wednesday 2 February 2011 than 92,000 children and young people under the age of 18 were admitted to hospital as a result of alcohol misuse between 2002 and 2009. Girls are more likely to [JIM SHERIDAN in the Chair] need hospital treatment than boys. Furthermore, a university of Manchester study found that some young women Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) were consuming more than a week’s allowance of alcohol units in a single night. Excessive drinking leads them to Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting take more risks, such as walking home alone when be now adjourned.—(Stephen Crabb.) drunk, particularly after they have sampled a ladies “drink for free” promotion. Since 1970, we have seen a 9.30 am threefold increase in cirrhosis, but it is ninefold for Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I am pleased to those under the age of 45. The age at which people have secured this debate. I thank Mr Speaker for selecting develop cirrhosis has been falling, and even teenagers it and I am glad that it is taking place under your are now developing liver failure. assured chairmanship, Mr Sheridan. The Welsh Assembly rightly wants to take effective Alcohol pricing is of great concern to many MPs. action to help people in Wales, but points out that the The subject has been raised by Back Benchers on both main levers for making the most significant change sides of the House in recent Home Office, Health and remain with the Government, who have the power to Business questions, and it has been the subject of a legislate on price, licensing and advertising—the number of early-day motions that received cross-party Government did not accede to the Welsh Assembly’s support. request for alcohol licensing powers to be devolved. Some say that alcohol misuse, with its related health Another problem is the so-called pocket-money priced and social problems, is a major problem in the United alcohol on offer in supermarkets. That can undermine Kingdom, so it is right that we should debate how local pubs, which are generally places of responsible alcohol pricing can help to tackle it. A constituent of drinking. My dad was a publican after working as a mine wrote to me recently, saying that politicians are steelworker, and before becoming a bread delivery man. too reactive and unwilling to offer leadership on difficult Other Members will doubtless wish to elaborate on the issues. The Conservative-led Government have certainly negative effect that such pricing can have on pubs and made a start on alcohol pricing, but it is a rather timid the local community. one. I hope they can be persuaded to be bold and to act Before going any further, may I say that when seeking swiftly. If they do not do so, precious lives may be lost to reduce harmful drinking we must, in tandem, provide and many lives blighted. adequate funding for alcohol research, treatment and The British Medical Association has highlighted prevention programmes, with sufficient training for health the staggering cost of alcohol abuse to the national professionals to detect and manage those who have health service, at £2.8 billion. The British Society of alcohol misuse problems. Gastroenterology says that a serious cost is attached to cheap booze, and the UK is now paying the price. The Minister with responsibility for public health, the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member I requested this debate primarily because of my interest for Guildford (Anne Milton), said that in public health, and I am glad to see the Home Office Minister and the shadow Minister here today. We all “The Government alone cannot improve public health; we need to use all the tools in the box.”—[Official Report, 21 December know that antisocial behaviour, fuelled by binge drinking, 2010; Vol. 520, c. 1351.] can blight our neighbourhoods; and many are affected in their own homes as a result of domestic violence and I would argue that alcohol pricing is a high-powered the breakdown of relationships. tool—and one that should be used now. A British crime survey showed that half of all crime The Government may be about to act—I give credit is alcohol related. In 2008, the then South Wales police where it is due—but their proposed minimum price is chief constable warned people that too low. It covers only duty and VAT. As the National “In Wales you are more likely to be assaulted by someone you Retail Federation said, the Government’s “duty plus know than anywhere else in the UK…alcohol plays a huge, huge VAT” definition woefully fails to cover the real cost of role in it.” alcohol; 40p for a litre of cider can hardly be considered Similar findings were set out in the excellent report of positive action. For me, it is the duty of Government to the Select Committee on Home Affairs, produced in the protect and promote the health of their citizens. I am previous Parliament under the chairmanship of my unpersuaded by the concern expressed by the Wine and right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Spirit Trade Association that minimum pricing will hit Vaz); I am pleased to see him here today. responsible drinkers and hurt the poor the most. I cannot Figures released last week show that Wales has among believe that responsible drinkers expect to get their the highest rates of death in the UK linked to alcohol. alcohol at “duty plus VAT” prices, with no allowance Over Christmas in my local area of Gwent, as a result for production or distribution costs. of the Wales drink-drive campaign 95 people were Furthermore, as the Alcohol Health Alliance points found to be over the limit. Despite the snow and ice and out, the wind chill factor to be found at 1,200 feet—a time “low alcohol prices means that responsible drinkers are subsidising when most sober people would not dream of driving—some the behaviour of the 25% of the population who are drinking at drivers were on the road and over the limit. hazardous or harmful levels.” 267WH Alcohol (Minimum Pricing)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) 268WH

[Nick Smith] at an early age. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, along with the need for an education strategy from the The effect of a minimum price on moderate drinkers Department of Health, we need a concerted campaign will be low, as they consume less alcohol. If a 50p from the supermarkets? minimum price were introduced, it would mean an increase in spending on alcohol of less than 23p a week for a moderate drinker; but a heavy drinker could pay Nick Smith: It is important that there be greater slightly more than £3 a week. public awareness of the dangers of drinking excessive amounts of alcohol. As for the poor being most affected by high prices, I cannot repeat too often that alcohol misuse costs us As yet, no legislative plans have been put before £2.8 billion. If we include the cost of crime and absenteeism Parliament to implement the Government’s half-measure from work, the bill would be much higher. The Government to end below-cost selling. None is included in the Police clearly need some more detailed research. We know that Reform and Social Responsibility Bill that is currently the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, in Committee. Will the Minister tell us how the Government the British Medical Association, the Association of intend to introduce their proposal? Will we have legislation Chief Police Officers and others have called for a realistic now, or action in the Budget? Some more details would minimum price for alcohol. How can the Government be helpful. Moreover, the Minister has said that the justify a minimum price for alcohol that covers only Government will consider the rate of duty on super-strength taxes but not the production and distribution costs? lagers, but how long will that take? Will that really reduce binge drinking in our towns, In opposition, the Conservatives promised to call particularly among vulnerable young women? Perhaps time on drinks that fuel antisocial behaviour. The the Minister will tell us. Government know that there is a clear link between the A spokesperson for the British Liver Trust said on price of alcohol and the harms associated with alcohol, BBC News 24 that the Government’s proposal would but they are too timid to tackle the matter. They are save 21 lives a year. That is good, but I understand that concerned that everyone will be penalised if realistic research commissioned by the Department of Health minimum pricing is introduced. As I said earlier, that demonstrates that a minimum unit price of 20p, 30p, argument does not hold water. 40p and 50p would prevent 30, 300, 1,300 and 3,300 deaths respectively. David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I apologise for being late, Mr Sheridan. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): The hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. The research papers on this wishes to increase the price of alcohol on the supermarket issue say that two thirds of the public believe that shelves and discourage the unscrupulous pricing behaviour drinking in Britain is out of control. In my constituency, that has been displayed. However, one of the unintended the fact that children as young as 10 can easily access consequences of minimum pricing is that it could skew alcohol is destroying lives. In my own business, in the market and encourage people to drink spirits such respect of which I declare an interest, a 16-year-old was as vodka, which is becoming an increasing problem recently diagnosed as being an alcoholic. among young drinkers.

Nick Smith: The point about discouraging young Nick Smith: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful people is powerfully made, and I know that unintended argument. consequences can be a problem. That is why we need I am concerned that cinemas promote alcohol because more research. Having said that, I still think the price young people can be easily influenced in such places. suggested by the Government is way too low. Alcohol marketing creates new young drinkers, many of whom, unfortunately, think it cool to drink in excess. Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Is it not more likely We have to teach them how to enjoy a drink, as many of that minimum pricing will encourage young people to us do, without drinking too much. Therefore, more drink responsibly in public houses, thus supporting the regulation may be necessary. France, for example, bans traditional pub industry and also providing a degree of drink advertisements both in the cinema and on TV. It supervision? also has a great rugby team who play with real élan. Finally, we have developed a culture in our country in Nick Smith: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful which alcohol and sport go too easily together. We all point. remember the days when John Player sponsored cricket It is not surprising that the former chief medical and Embassy sponsored snooker and darts. It is salutary officer, Sir Liam Donaldson, has called for a 50p minimum to reflect on the fact that some of our greatest sports price per unit, as it is estimated that it could save personalities, such as George Best and Alex Higgins, 3,300 lives a year. Does not a proposal from such an have fallen foul of too much drink. eminent source, with a distinguished record of public service, merit serious consideration? We need a major cultural change, and out sports administrators should note the contradiction in alcohol sponsorship of sport and their primary goal of promoting Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Does the hon. sporting success and physical well-being for us all. Gentleman agree that, along with the clear need to increase the price of alcohol, we need an education Watching the Heineken cup and having a pint is one strategy from the Department of Health, perhaps to of life’s pleasures, but it would still be a great tournament shock people into realising what would happen to them? if it was sponsored by another industry and drinking in Many who imbibe unfortunately end up with liver polyps moderation was seen as cool by young people. 269WH Alcohol (Minimum Pricing)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) 270WH

9.43 am clubs to compete. As a result, we have seen the shift in drinking behaviour. As I am sure that the Minister is Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): I congratulate the aware, 70% of all alcohol is sold through the supermarkets. hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) on If we go back 20 years, the difference in the sale of beer securing this hugely important debate. We all see the between pubs and off-licences was 80:20; now, it is consequences of drinks pricing in our high streets and 50:50. We are seeing supermarkets constantly eroding A&E departments, so I pay tribute to him for recognising pub sales. the importance of this issue. I am the vice-chairman of the all-party parliamentary Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): beer group and the MP for Burton. I am proud to say The hon. Gentleman is dealing with a very important that Burton is the home of British beer. We have Carling point that relates to the social issue associated with Black Label, Marston’s Pedigree and Punch Taverns, drinking. I am talking about parents who may be buying which is the biggest pub company in the country. The alcohol regularly from the supermarkets at a very low Minister has been incredibly generous with his time. He price. Poor parenting skills can result, which will lead to has met members of the all-party parliamentary beer parents having problems at home with their children. group, the Save the Pub group and the Campaign for That is a hidden issue that results from the pricing Real Ale group. He has met the brewers and the pub policy, and it needs to be resolved. owners and taken time to listen to the concerns and issues that so many of them face, and I thank him for Andrew Griffiths: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. that. I also thank him for recognising that pricing in the However, there are those who say, “Why should we supermarkets is dangerous and is having an impact on penalise someone who wants to buy a 24-pack of strong our young people and on society. As a Government, it is lager and take it home and drink one can a night for important that we take action to tackle the problem. 24 days? Why should we penalise that?” The reality, I doubt whether there is anybody in this Chamber who however, is different. The clients at the Burton addiction finds it acceptable for supermarkets to use alcohol as a centre in my constituency will talk about the impact loss leader or as a giveaway to get people through the that cheap booze has on fuelling people’s drinking supermarket tills, yet that is what we are seeing daily. consumption. I am glad that this Government have had the determination and confidence to produce legislation Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): My hon. that, for the first time, not only recognises that cheap Friend seems to be against these loss-leaders. Would he booze is a problem for society but sets out to do outlaw loss-leaders for chocolate, salt, butter and other something about it. Sadly, though, like Oliver in “Oliver things that are not good for us if we take them in excess? Twist”, I have to say, “Please, Sir, can I have some more?” None of us here believes that the price level that Andrew Griffiths: My hon. Friend makes a very important has been set, although well intentioned, will have a point. However, I cannot remember the last time I was massive effect on drinking behaviour, particularly among on Burton high street and saw two guys knocking seven young people. bells out of each other over a Toblerone. I also cannot remember the last time I was in Queen’s hospital A and It is interesting to put the whole matter into context. E and doctors were pumping somebody’s stomach because In 1987, the price of a pint of lager in the pub was they had overdosed on too much butter. The reality is £1, and in an off-licence 70p. By 2010, the pub figure that alcohol is a very different beast from things such as had gone up to £3 and the off-licence figure had stayed chocolate. pretty much the same at about £1. We have seen prices in pubs increase by more than prices in off-licences over Mr Chope: Surely the issue is not whether alcohol is that period. distinct from other products, but the use made of it by the people who consume it. Is my hon. Friend not in Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): I recently danger of victimising people, particularly poor families, met the chair of one of the local working men’s clubs in who benefit from these loss-leaders? He is trying to put my constituency. After a debate about whether or not forward the argument that, by penalising those poor the club should allow in women, about which we did families, he will tackle the problem of binge drinking, not agree, we spoke about the pricing of alcohol. The which I do not think he will. club is concerned about the pricing issue. It believes that aggressive, cheap offers from supermarkets and corner Andrew Griffiths: I recognise my hon. Friend’s concern, shops are a big attack on its very survival. Historically, but the people we are penalising are the taxpayers, who working men’s clubs are a key part of social life, particularly have to pay for the consequences of binge drinking in the north-east, and we need to have that at the front through the costs of extra policing and the impacts on of our minds when we consider minimum pricing levels. A & E departments. Furthermore, if I am being brutally honest it is those poor families who suffer most as a Andrew Griffiths: If the hon. Lady would like to result of cheap alcohol. Youngpeople and poor families come to Rolleston working men’s club in my constituency, are much more price-sensitive to alcohol than others. she will be welcomed with open arms and provided with alcohol in a safe and regulated environment. We all Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Surely recognise that the pub and the working men’s club there is a more basic problem. The nation’s increasing provide a safe, regulated environment in which people addiction to alcohol is placing a huge strain upon the can enjoy a pint or a glass of wine and interact socially. NHS—£2.7 billion a year. Surely we are talking on They are the social hub of our communities. Unfortunately, many occasions about treating the consequences of supermarkets’ pricing and their use of alcohol as a loss alcohol-related harm, rather than taking early action to leader is making it almost impossible for our pubs and prevent alcohol problems. 271WH Alcohol (Minimum Pricing)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) 272WH

Andrew Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman gets right to can see an increase in the price of alcohol on supermarket the nub of the problem. I think we all recognise that a shelves and begin to tackle some of the supermarkets’ pub or a club is a supervised environment in which deeply dangerous activities. people can safely consume alcohol. When I was a young man, many was the time when I might have had a half Several hon. Members rose— of lager too much, or a half of Marston’s Pedigree too much, and somebody—my parents, my friends or somebody Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Order. Several right hon. else a bit older and wiser than me—might have said, and hon. Members have indicated that they wish to “Right, son, you’ve had enough, it’s time to go home”, speak. It is my intention to call the Front-Bench spokesmen or the barman might have said, “I’m sorry, sir, I’m not from 10.30 am, so I ask speakers to take that into serving you any more, you’ve had too much”. However, consideration when they make their contributions. the reality now is that too many young people are drinking to excess in an unsupervised manner. The real problem is not only the price disparity. In 9.56 am recent years, there has been a massive increase in the regulatory burden placed on pubs and clubs—the smoking Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to be ban, for example—and a constant increase in the amount present in a debate under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan, of red tape and supervision associated with dealing and to follow the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew with the consequences of binge drinking. Actually, in Griffiths), who made an eloquent and thoughtful speech. many cases the pub only sells the last pint, because I think that this is going to be a great debate. It will young people in particular are “pre-loading” before also provide a lot of information for political diarists. going out. When they get to the pub—increasingly, at We have already heard this morning about butter-related later times in the evening—they are half-cut and the crime, or the possibility of butter-related crime, from pubs have to deal with the consequences of that, including the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope); we the fights and other problems. The danger is that we are have heard the hon. Member for Burton offer the loading too much of the burden on to pubs, when working men in his constituency the prospect of actually the supermarkets are driving a lot of this welcoming my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington antisocial behaviour. (Mrs Chapman) with open arms, and we have also heard about the Minister’s various meetings with beer The previous Government did a lot of work with groups, of which I am sure there are many, although publicans to prohibit the “two for one” offer, the “happy some will think that the Minister, with his youthful hour” and the “drink as much as you can for a tenner” good looks, might not even be old enough to drink. promotions that were fuelling excessive drinking. The pub industry, working with Government, took action to Having said that, this is a very serious issue and I pay try to prevent those promotions—and yet it is perfectly tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau okay for someone to buy a 24-pack of Stella or another Gwent (Nick Smith) for choosing it for a debate. It has strong lager from a supermarket. There are no restrictions attracted so many right hon. and hon. Members to on that. Westminster Hall on a Wednesday morning, each one of whom has a constituency interest and a desire to Supermarkets are using beer as a loss-leader. We have ensure that we continue to move in the right direction. seen the impact that supermarkets have had on milk and the dairy market through driving down the price of Other Members here will be able to talk about the milk. They are doing the same with bread, and now health aspects of the issue, for example, hon. Member they are using alcohol as a loss-leader. That is very for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), who has vast experience in dangerous and is sending out completely the wrong the NHS. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for message to young people. Blaenau Gwent and the hon. Member for Burton both mentioned the cost of binge drinking to our health I thank the Minister very much for what the Government service and the health of the nation. have done so far, but it is not enough. We need to go In the next few minutes, I want to concentrate on further. What we are all hoping for is some recognition alcohol-related crime and the report of the Select Committee today that this is the first step on a journey. The on Home Affairs, “Policing in the 21st Century”, to Minister will himself admit that if we agree that cheap which my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent alcohol is a problem, the question must arise, “How referred. That report was published last year and it cheap is too cheap?” Is he honestly saying that he thinks addressed the cost to the taxpayer and to the public of we have got to where we need to get to on alcohol alcohol-related crime. When our Committee began the pricing, when we are still selling cider at 20p a can, beer inquiry that led to that report, we were looking at what at 38p a can and wine at £1.99? a police officer did with his or her time; we never If the Government and the Minister’s intentions are intended to look at alcohol-related crime. It was only to be delivered, any solution must lead to an increase in after we had visited a number of town centres, including the price of alcohol on the supermarket shelf. We need Colchester, that we did so. The hon. Member for Colchester the Minister to take that idea forward and drive it (Bob Russell), who was then a member of the Committee, home. I know that, like me, he has been frustrated that, invited the Committee to visit Colchester and hear from with below-cost selling, we have not yet been able to local police officers there about the amount of time that find a solution that satisfies both the lawyers in Brussels they spent on alcohol-related crime, especially on a and the industry here. I hope that today, he will issue Friday or Saturday evening. The latest estimate is that another declaration to the industry, asking it to come 70% of police officers feel that they are distracted from forward with ideas on a meaningful definition of below-cost other aspects of policing because they are dealing with selling that includes the cost of production, so that we alcohol-related crime. 273WH Alcohol (Minimum Pricing)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) 274WH

A statistic was sent to the Committee from the Cabinet Some would say that the hon. Member for Burton Office showing that it costs £59 extra to process someone has the most to lose because of the production in his in a police station who has been arrested because town. I have visited Burton and been to the Coors of alcohol-related crime. In the current climate, the headquarters there. It is a remarkable town, and the Government want to save money on policing, and there world centre of beer making, but down the high street is no better way of doing that than to have responsible there is an alcohol addiction centre—how very convenient. laws that reduce the time that police officers spend on The people I visited made the case for minimum pricing, this issue. so if they can do that, we can look at the issue very seriously. There is something of a practical nature that Mr Chope: I do not think that anyone will disagree the Minister can do, picking up on what the hon. with the right hon. Gentleman about the problem, but Member for Gainsborough said. how will limiting the price at which supermarkets sell alcohol be the solution? We know from our constituencies Mr Chope: I represent Christchurch. that it is alleged that small shops, where alcohol is sold at a much higher price than at the supermarkets, enable Keith Vaz: Oh, I am so sorry: Christchurch, of course. young people under the legal age to access booze. How could I confuse the hon. Gentleman with the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh)? Keith Vaz: I have huge respect for the hon. Gentleman What the Minister needs to do is to get the chairmen because he was my Greater London councillor when I and chief executives of the five biggest supermarkets was in Richmond many years ago. I have always had a around the table for an alcohol-free sandwich lunch great deal of time for what he says, but I think that he is with both him and the Home Secretary, to discuss the wrong on this issue. It is not the little shops or the pubs, issues. It is in their hands; they can do this. but the supermarkets, that cause the problem. The evidence is clear, and it is in our report. As the hon. Dr McCrea: Does the right hon. Gentleman not Member for Burton has pointed out, people get tanked agree that if we are going to make a difference, the up before they go out on a Saturday night, because of Government need to confront not only the supermarket supermarkets’ special offers, which make beer cheaper low prices, but the non-stop availability of alcohol and than bottled water, even the cheapest water—I am not the saturation of its advertising? saying that we should not drink tap water. Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Those issues have to be considered. Mrs Chapman: I do not know where the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope)lives, but where I live I I shall end here, because so many other Members have noticed that small shops are actually becoming wish to contribute. The Government are moving in the supermarkets, and those Tesco Metros and Sainsbury’s right direction, but they have not accepted all the Select Locals have the same cut-price promotions on alcohol, Committee’s recommendations. I make a plea to the which occupies a larger proportion of shelf or floor Government to get those supermarkets together—that space than it does in a larger store. Such stores are is in their hands—and I say to the Minister, “Do not taking over territory that we might like to see remain be afraid.” I know that supermarkets are powerful with small local traditional shops. organisations; we face them in our constituencies, and some of our constituents actually shop at them—I do. The fact is, however, that on this issue we need to make Keith Vaz: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. She progress, and it needs to be now. tries to tempt me down Leicester high street, especially the Melton road, where we are currently fighting an Several hon. Members rose— application by Tesco to build one of its supermarkets in the middle of one of my main shopping areas. Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Order. I am reliably My hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent informed that both Front-Bench spokespeople are content mentioned the cost to the health service, but the cost to to extend the licensing hour for Back-Bench speeches to the taxpayer as far as crime is concerned is £7.3 billion a 10.40 am. year—a huge amount. What do we do about that? It is in the hands of the Minister. At the last Home Office 10.6 am questions, I got up to praise the Home Secretary for Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I thank moving in the right direction. We could not get the both Front Benchers for their generosity. previous Government to do this; I do not know why. It is not that they were not concerned about the matter—I I shall try to keep my comments brief. I congratulate think that they were worried about alcohol-related crime the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) on and the pressure on the health service—but that the securing this important and timely debate, after the debate perhaps got distracted by claims that somehow Government’s recent welcome announcement. I speak the extension of licensing hours meant that people were today as chair of the all-party save the pub group. I am drinking more alcohol. I do not think that that is not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is a member, but correct, but as someone who does not drink alcohol, if he is not, we would certainly be delighted to have him, and has no constituency interest—no distilleries or particularly now that we know he is from a publican production units—I feel that the previous Government family. should have taken up the Select Committee’s I welcome the Government’s announcement, which is recommendations. This Government are moving in the in itself a significant step that should be recognised. right direction, but not far enough, as I think we will This debate has gone on for a long time, and I am find from the contributions of most Members here this pleased that the Government have acted quickly in the morning. first year of this parliamentary term. Having said that, 275WH Alcohol (Minimum Pricing)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) 276WH

[Greg Mulholland] Andrew Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Coors, a fine brewer in my constituency, has there are frustrations that my hon. Friend the Member extended the terms on which it pays its suppliers from for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) and I have expressed, 30 days to 90 days. It is having a considerable impact, both privately and publicly. I echo my hon. Friend’s particularly on small businesses. comments about the Minister having being generous with his time and having sought to listen to people with an interest in pubs, and many others. He is right to do Greg Mulholland: My hon. Friend makes a good so, because that is a good way to make policy. However, point. I share the frustration, as do the majority of the all-party Why would supermarkets not welcome either a genuine group members, that what the Government have done ban on below-cost selling, which I support, or a minimum has not stopped below-cost selling. I want to make it price per unit, which other hon. Members support? absolutely clear that I do not support per unit minimum Those approaches would increase their revenue, but pricing. That is where the difference of opinion lies, and they sell cheap alcohol for other reasons. Let us face it: that is the challenge facing the Government. supermarkets have virtually destroyed the stand-alone Minimum pricing is not the way to solve the problems. off-licence trade in this country. Names such as Threshers As a Front-Bench Liberal Democrat health spokesperson, disappeared some time ago. We must remember that I said in a debate that minimum pricing is only part of pubs, working men’s clubs, stand-alone off-licences and the solution to two problems. The first is alcohol abuse, corner shops cannot sell alcohol below cost, because and it is important that we concentrate on “alcohol they rely on a reasonable margin on alcohol for their abuse” rather than on rather arbitrary terms such as profits. There is something more sinister going on. “binge drinking,” because some of the definitions are Below-cost selling is a way to attract people into stores confusing. We are talking about problem drinking, which and maintain supermarkets’ power over manufacturers, is drinking that leads to health problems, antisocial some of which, unlike Coors, are too small to argue. behaviour or crime, and that is what we all, as policy That situation is causing a problem. makers, should concentrate on. I accept that the issue is difficult, but we must come The second problem is the situation facing pubs and up with a definition of below-cost selling that includes the huge discrepancy that has developed over the past the cost of production. I realise that we are on the first few years. We have to accept that minimum pricing is step, and I accept that the issue is difficult to define, but not a silver bullet to solve either of those problems, but to say that below-cost selling simply involves tax suggests I have heard people both inside and outside this House that supermarkets buy alcohol for nothing. They might suggest that it is. Such problems are not solved so take a long time to pay, but they clearly pay something. simply. Year-on-year duty increases, particularly on beer, The price that they pay is often unreasonable, exactly as have done nothing whatsoever to stop the problems it is for the milk that they purchase from dairy farmers, and, in fact, as the duty has increased the culture of but there is nevertheless a price. It cannot be impossible alcohol-fuelled antisocial behaviour has got worse. to include in the equation the price that the supermarkets must pay. That is the challenge, and I look forward to I highlight to the Minister, because I know that he is working with the Minister on it over time. interested in the issue, that there is a conversation that he needs to have with his colleagues in the Treasury. I accept some of the concerns aired by the hon. May I make a plea? We do not want another duty rise in Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope). This is not the forthcoming Budget, because it will damage pubs about social engineering, moralising or saying that we further. The hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent was should not sometimes welcome a reasonable deal and absolutely right that well-run pubs and working men’s the chance to get a couple of pounds off a bottle of clubs that serve as hubs for their communities not only wine in a supermarket. Indeed, many people are concerned provide regulated, controlled places for people to enjoy that if we set a high minimum price, that chance would alcohol responsibly in a supervised atmosphere but disappear. There would also be other unintended create a different culture of enjoying alcohol in a community consequences. For example, apart from increasing setting, generally with people of all ages. That leads to a supermarket revenues, which is surely perverse, it could different approach to alcohol and prevents some of the have the surprising effect of pushing up the price of a problems identified by the Select Committee Chair, the bottle of wine that currently costs £3.50 and is not right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), worth more than that, and making good bottles of wine including pre-loading and under-age drinking in parks more expensive, which is not what any of us want. and unsupervised settings such as houses where parents People should be allowed to enjoy alcohol sensibly are out, which is where many problems occur. without sudden unacceptable inflationary pressures. The duty question is more interesting still. Who pays I am concerned to stop the irresponsible selling of duty? It is not the supermarkets. That is one of the huge alcohol, which I am glad to say has been largely stamped flaws in the argument for a rise in duty. Duty is paid by out in the on trade but is, sadly, still alive and well, manufacturers and producers, which includes not only particularly in supermarkets. The Government have Coors in Burton but WharfeBank Brewery in my made a good start, but they can go further. I know that constituency. Breweries must pay duty on the 20th day the Minister is listening, and I look forward to working of the month of invoice. It is a considerable payment for with him and his team to close the unacceptable gap some of them, but when supermarkets buy beer from that has done so much damage to pubs, which are part breweries, including small breweries on tight margins, of the solution to problem drinking, and to do they do not pay them for months, often for three something—we must recognise that it is only something—to months and sometimes longer. As usual, supermarkets deal with the problems associated with alcohol abuse exploit their dominant market share. that other hon. Members have rightly discussed. 277WH Alcohol (Minimum Pricing)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) 278WH

10.16 am Most leave their homes already very drunk, which prompts the question why they are allowed to continue consuming Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): I am alcohol in licensed premises having already drunk enough delighted to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan. before they arrive. As others have pointed out in this I congratulate the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent debate and others, one of the good things about public (Nick Smith) on securing this important debate. As houses is that responsible landlords tend to prevent vice-chair of the all-party group on alcohol misuse, I overly drunk and disorderly behaviour by stepping in believe that this is an incredibly important issue for all and refusing to serve those whom they believe have had hon. Members, and I welcome the Government’s enough to drink. commitment to tackling the serious issue of alcohol abuse. The proposal to introduce a minimum price for As my hon. Friend, drawing on his experience, has alcohol is undoubtedly a small step in the right direction, pointed out, minimum pricing will, in theory, abolish although I say that having listened to the hon. Member the deep discounting that encourages that kind of drinking, for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), who says the thus equalising the cost of a night out and driving down opposite. alcohol consumption. However, the low minimum price proposed will only stop the very worst cases of discounting, I want to say clearly and early in my contribution that and it may play out differently in practice. Therefore, minimum pricing is just one aspect of what must be bolder proposals should still be considered, targeting done to deal with increasing dependency on alcohol. I specific drinks associated with binge drinking, such as look forward to future statements by the Government strong lagers, white ciders and alcopops. on their alcohol strategy. In my view, treatment and It is important that we in this Chamber give credit rehabilitation services in this country are poor, availability where it is due. I was pleased to learn that Heineken, is limited and service is disjointed across agencies. Little which produces White Lightning, recently discontinued is done to help individuals and families ripped apart by the product due to its binge-drinking connotations. It alcoholism. The availability of cheap alcohol has should be commended for acknowledging the need to undoubtedly encouraged the kind of drinking and antisocial reinforce its stance on responsible drinking. behaviour that blights town centres each weekend. A culture, which is exclusive in many respects to British We must consider the limited scope of the policy and streets, has emerged in which it is fashionable to drink the likelihood that it will make headway only with a more than one is capable of. As a consequence, ill health certain type of drinker. There is a growing dependency and antisocial behaviour have become common. culture, and it is often hidden behind the closed doors of houses throughout the country. They are difficult to The cost to the NHS of alcohol-related harm resulting identify and affluent enough to absorb any increase in from that culture is alarming. The statistics are well price, especially something as low as duty plus VAT. known, but one indication of strain on the NHS can be However, just because the minimum price does not seen in the proxy services dedicated to treating binge impact upon them directly, that does not make them drinkers. An SOS bus patrols Medway towns on Friday any less of a concern or any less dependent on alcohol and Saturday nights, providing services to inebriated and at risk of serious health issues in years to come. revellers. I visited it recently, albeit early in the evening, Current research reinforces that concern, because wealthy as I did not particularly want to see the consequences of districts dominate the top of hazardous-drinking league heavy drinking. The dedicated volunteers are amazing tables. Although minimum pricing will target the binge and divert pressure away from the blue-light services, drinkers who do it on the cheap, it is clear that it will do keeping vulnerable and very drunk youngsters safe. I little to tackle alcohol dependency as a whole. certainly intend to try to protect that service during I appreciate that the Government have to balance these financially constrained times, but it is a sad indictment their strategy of introducing a policy that meets their of our weekend drinking culture that it is needed in the stated aims of reducing dangerous levels of alcohol first place. consumption while not penalising the vast majority On minimum pricing, evidence points to a link between who enjoy alcohol sensibly. The question is: does this cost and sales. The theory is, obviously, that as cost minimum price do that? rises, demand will fall. That might be a basic economic The pricing of alcohol is only part of the problem. It mechanism, and in principle it should make minimum must be introduced in conjunction with a review of the alcohol pricing an effective policy for driving down late-night licences available to establishments, stricter dangerous levels of alcohol consumption, but the decision alcohol-control zones and a close examination of the to set the base at the low rate of duty plus VAT is clearly quality of treatment and rehab offered to those with a controversial, and it remains to be seen whether it will high dependency. work. I share the concerns expressed by colleagues and David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Will the hon. others that such a policy will do little to help our Lady join me in congratulating the Scottish Health beleaguered public houses, which must now compete Minister, who introduced a price structure in relation with supermarkets rather than each other. I was interested to vodka last September? As has been mentioned, the to hear the price statistics quoted by my hon. Friend the minimum price used to be £7.97, but it is now £11.81 under Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths), but I do not the new structure, which also applies to some beers. We believe that the proposal will help tackle long-term encourage all the regions, including the Northern Ireland alcohol dependency. It will be a small step in the right Assembly, to do the same. direction, if its aim is solely to clamp down on aspects of binge drinking such as pre-loading, which other hon. Tracey Crouch: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Members have discussed and the sole motivation of intervention. I have read about the new proposals in which is keeping the costs of a night out to minimum. Scotland, which are currently being debated. We should 279WH Alcohol (Minimum Pricing)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) 280WH

[Tracey Crouch] The hon. Gentleman referred to some of the Welsh statistics. I will not detain the Chamber with too look at what is happening in Scotland. Indeed, we many, but Alcohol Concern Cymru estimates that there should have looked at what was happening there in are 13,000 alcohol-related hospital admissions and relation to the 24-hour drinking culture before it was 1,000 alcohol-related deaths in Wales each year. It also introduced here. The evidence that the police had gathered estimates that half the violent incidents in Wales are in Scotland should have been made available to the related to alcohol and that the cost of alcohol misuse to previous Government before they introduced the licensing the NHS in Wales is between £70 million and £85 million extension. a year, and that is just for treatment by accident and In conclusion, we need to engage with the professional emergency services. That is a huge cost to public services, classes and young adults who regularly drink to hazardous but it does not reflect the pain, grief and intense stress levels, and target those establishments that prop up the that many families, not just the drinker, experience. binge-drinking culture through irresponsible sales and England has similar statistics, but I will not go into business practices. If we can in any way reduce the them now, other than to say that it is estimated that weekend strain on the NHS, the police and the local 17 million working days are lost per annum. I am sorry authorities that clear up the mess created by binge that the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) has drinking, we can certainly hail this as a small step in the left the Chamber, because that is one of the definite right direction. However, in order to reduce dependency effects on trade and industry, about which I know he is on alcohol across the board and to stem the devastating concerned. The cost of alcohol-related crime in England effects that it has on the lives of individuals and families, is £4.7 billion a year. let alone its financial cost to society, so much more needs to be done. As has been mentioned, the Scottish Government have tried to act. They commissioned research that showed that a minimum price per unit of alcohol of 10.25 am 40p could reduce alcohol-related deaths in Scotland by 70 in the first year, rising to 370 a year after 10 years, so Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): I congratulate the hon. there would be a cumulative effect. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) on securing this important debate. Many of the arguments are in favour of addressing I enjoy real beer and good wine, and support a the price issue. I welcome the Government’s proposals traditional pub. One of the most enjoyable experiences to prevent retailers from selling alcohol below duty plus of my early career as an MP was to open Bragdy Mws VAT, and I am glad that they accept the arguments Piws, which, for those present who are not blessed with about the effect of cheap drink and the need to act. the Welsh language, is the Purple Moose Brewery in However, I fear that the proposals will hit only the Porthmadog. I commend its excellent products. special offers. In some of the briefing material available Alcohol is a problem, and I need not go into much to us, the Alcohol Health Alliance has said that the detail because many hon. Members have already done proposals would have so. I was a psychiatric social worker for eight years and I “no meaningful impact on the health consequences of alcohol would like to talk about three cases that I came across misuse.” during that time. First, I once went to a club near I do not know whether that is the case, but the Government Blaenau Gwent and had to drag one of my colleagues should look at the matter further. A minimum unit out at lunch time because he had been drinking a pint of price is not a silver bullet, as I think everybody recognises. cloudy scrumpy that retailed at 8p a pint. Its effects on We need concerted action on several fronts, including him were dreadful. Of my second example, I need only on licensing hours and the number of outlets. When I say that the person in question was an alcoholic roofer—I first started drinking many years ago, very few places need not spell out the consequences. The third, and sold alcohol. It now seems that every corner shop or most tragic, case relates to an elderly man with whom I garage has alcohol for sale. worked with a noted local psychiatrist, Dr Dafydd Alun Jones, who has had a long career in the field. The elderly I conclude by noting briefly that my party, Plaid man had had a lifetime of heavy drinking and he was Cymru, is in favour of a minimum price of 50p per unit. abstinent at that time, but occasionally he would have That is also the policy of the Welsh Assembly Government. what he called “lapses” when he would go out and drink We argue that such an approach would reduce consumption heavily for a few days, which he would then regret at his and lead to a lower consumption of very strong drinks. leisure. That would have a particular effect on young people. Someone asked earlier about the temptation to drink Huge efforts have been made to combat the effects of vodka if there were a minimum price. My knowledge of alcohol. My constituency of Arfon has CAIS, the local young people unfortunately shows that they need no alcohol and drugs council. Interestingly, a couple of encouragement to drink vodka; they seem to do it weeks ago I went out with the Bangor Street Pastors, a without any encouragement whatsoever. local voluntary group that goes out on Fridays and Saturdays at 1, 2 and 3 o’clock in the morning to help As I said, the argument in my party also centres on vulnerable young people who are clearly worse for wear the beneficial effects on the traditional pub. In the past, due to alcohol. The volunteers back up the emergency we have asked for pub licensing to be devolved. That services, and the police appreciate what they do. I talked came up when discussing the previous Government’s with the police when I was out a couple of weeks ago, changes to the licensing scheme. The Welsh Government and they pointed out the effects on their work of having have asked for the rights to impose a minimum price per to be out at 2 and 3 o’clock in the morning when their unit but, unfortunately, that has been refused. I therefore shift pattern did not really allow for it. ask the Minister in the long term—I do not expect to 281WH Alcohol (Minimum Pricing)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) 282WH have an answer from him this morning—to reconsider 10.35 am the devolution of licensing powers to the Welsh Government and the refusal to allow the Welsh Government to set a Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): There are only a minimum price. few minutes left, so I shall address just four issues. Is it worth it? Will it work? Is it unfair? How can we do it? We have heard many statistics this morning, on which I 10.32 am will not dwell in the short time I have. Suffice it to say that nearly 15,000 people died of attributable deaths to Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): I am alcohol in 2005, and they are the tip of the iceberg. conscious of the time, so I will not delay hon. Members Those figures do not take account of the person knocked by going through some of the statistics on the type of over by a drunk driver or people whose deaths were harm that alcohol is causing in my constituency—they perhaps attributable to alcohol in ways that are not are firmly on the record. That is particularly the case in recorded in the true statistics. We underestimate the Newquay, where many people go to have a very good scale of the problem. On the human cost, as an NHS time—often too much of a good time. I should put an doctor for 24 years and a police surgeon, I cannot begin interest on record. Like many hon. Members, I enjoy a to tell hon. Members the hideous nature of a slow death drink from time to time, and I also have a brewery in my from alcoholic psoriasis. constituency in St Austell. Will the policy work? Yes, there is very clear evidence For the Minister’s benefit, I want to touch on one of that it will. Several meta-analyses were studied in the the potentially unintended effects of the duty plus VAT university of Sheffield report that was commissioned by regime that the Government are introducing. When the the previous Government. Those show that it is clear Minister introduced the policy, he said that it was “an that pricing is a very good mechanism not only for important first step.” I agree with that, but it is also a controlling overall consumption, but for targeting those very tentative step. In fact, in certain circumstances, who are most at risk: young people and heavy drinkers. industry representatives have said to me that the policy On the question of whether the policy is unfair, let us could make the price of alcohol lower in some retail consider the statistics. Someone from a deprived area is establishments. As has been mentioned by other hon. three to five times more likely than someone living in an Friends, the proposal does not factor in any sense of the affluent area to die of an alcohol-specific cause. In cost of production. Retailers and wholesalers, neither addition, they are two to three times more likely to die of which will be taking any margin, could end up of an alcohol-related cause and two to five times more paying the duty plus VAT and reducing the cost as part likely to be admitted to hospital for an alcohol-related of a marketing exercise—brand awareness—and an attempt cause. It is completely untrue to say that we penalise to drive footfall. low-income families by addressing the problem. That Just before Christmas, if someone had £20 and went group of people is most at risk. If we consider the into a store with a promotion on, they might have been statistics on children who are affected and the figures on able to get three 15 packs of beer or cider—about domestic violence, again, there is a skewing towards 45 cans. Under the Government’s proposals, supermarkets lower-income families. We should address that matter can legitimately charge £20 for 52 cans of lager or a and not hide it under the carpet. staggering 107 cans of cider. That is a great offer for someone who likes that kind of thing. The proposals Time is very short so, finally, how can we do it? There mean that, for £20, someone could buy enough cider to are various ways. We could, for example, look at varying meet their recommended daily alcohol consumption for VAT. I recently wrote to the Treasury to provide a copy three months—107 cans of cider is equivalent to 246 units. of an article written by Nick Sheron that was published in the British Medical Journal. He argues that we can achieve minimum pricing by varying VAT, and that we Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con) rose— should perhaps lower VAT on on-licence sales of alcohol. That would mean that we protect the licensed trade. I think everyone would accept that we do not want to Stephen Gilbert: I will not give way. I know my hon. penalise pubs. Simply using the blunt instrument of Friend wants to get in, so I will try to rattle through the raising duty is the incorrect way forward, but having a points that I want to make. variable rate of VAT would be an interesting method, Potentially, under a duty plus VAT arrangement, the allowing us to protect the on-licence trade. Unfortunately, following could be purchased for £20: not 45 cans of the Economic Secretary has written back to me to say beer but 52; not 45 cans of cider but 107; not six bottles that she feels that that would be illegal under EU law. of wine but 10, and almost two bottles of spirits. Under EU law, we cannot make supermarkets have As has been mentioned, the policy does not factor in different ways of adjusting to adopt such proposals, so costs of production and is a very tentative step forward. the alternative is to introduce minimum pricing across There is a big discrepancy between the price of beer and the board. That is worth doing. I know that the Treasury the price of cider. We have to consider whether the feels that such an approach would perhaps deprive it of Treasury is taxing those products equally. If we consider income, but we are all paying a very heavy price in costs beer, at 4.2% alcohol by volume, the duty per unit is to the criminal justice system and to the health service. 17p; for cider, at 4.5% ABV, it is 7p per unit. Beer tax Many hon. Members have cited the £2.7 billion figure in has increased by 50% over seven years and the gap relation to the health service, but it is probably more between beer and cider tax widens every year. The than that. Certainly, the cost overall to our economy is Treasury is estimated to be losing £400 million a year. nearer to £20 billion than some of the lower figures that I shall now sit down, so that my hon. Friend can make have been cited today. If we can address that, the her contribution. Treasury would benefit indirectly, if not directly. 283WH Alcohol (Minimum Pricing)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) 284WH

[Dr Sarah Wollaston] it, that equates to minimum pricing of approximately 21p a unit for beer and 28p a unit for spirits. Under I shall mention a final mechanism. There are 30.4 billion those plans, the lowest possible price for a can of lager units of alcohol sold in the off-trade. Perhaps we should in a supermarket would range from 38p to 78p, depending consider introducing a levy just on the off-trade of 5p to on its strength. Most drinks would be unaffected by 7p a unit on all off-licence sales. That would still leave that proposal, as that works out at as little as 47p a pint 18 billion units of on-licence sales of alcohol unaffected. for lagers. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester Perhaps that is another mechanism that could looked at East has pointed out that that means that many soft by the Treasury, which could benefit more directly while drinks and mineral waters would still be more expensive trying to achieve something closer to 50p a unit. Like than alcohol bought in the supermarket. many hon. Members, I do not seriously believe that the The Campaign for Real Ale has pointed out that in Government’s current proposals, while a step in the banning below-cost prices, the cost of production should right direction, will have any meaningful impact on be included. That would raise the floor price to 40p per severe problem drinkers, particularly young binge drinkers. unit, which is almost double the 21p per unit that will be the norm under coalition Government plans. In a quick 10.40 am survey by my office yesterday in the Tesco nearest to Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): It Parliament, we found that typical prices were four large is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, 440 ml cans of Stella for £3.30, and four 440 ml cans of Mr Sheridan. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Strongbow for £4.25, or two for £7. Clearly, there is an for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) on securing the debate issue with the pricing that will be introduced in the and on his excellent speech. I know about his long-standing proposals from the Government. Those prices are typical interest in this particular problem, as well as his concern up and down the country. Hon. Members have discussed about wider health matters. what is happening in their own constituencies, and I know this from my own constituency in Hull. This debate has been interesting. I certainly feel that I have learned a lot about the drinking habits, or not, of a We have heard about the proposal from the former number of hon. and right hon. Members in this Chamber. chief medical officer for England, Sir Liam Donaldson, The hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) gave who, in March 2009, proposed a 50p a unit minimum an interesting speech about how alcohol is a major issue pricing level. That would increase the price of all bottles for his constituency, which is a centre of brewing. My of wine to at least £4.50 and raise the price of the right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith average six-pack of lager to £6. Vaz), who is the distinguished Chair of the Home A number of concerns have been raised both in this Affairs Committee, talked about the information that debate and beyond. One concern, as I have just set out, he has gleaned from looking at policing and the effect of is whether the retail price will make any real difference alcohol. The hon. Member for Leeds North West to influencing the excessive drinking that we have seen (Greg Mulholland), who is a doughty campaigner for in recent years to a move towards greater moderation. pubs, discussed how we can tackle the problems of There is also the question why responsible drinkers alcohol, which we clearly have, and the important should be penalised by having to pay more, when they community role for pubs. The hon. Member for Chatham are not in any way part of the problem. That is a fair and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) talked about her experience point, which has carried the day in debate for many in her constituency. The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel years. It may be difficult to devise a way of dealing with Williams) talked about his experience as a social worker irresponsible drinking, while leaving those people who in dealing with clients and about what was happening just have an occasional glass of wine or pint of beer on the streets of his constituency late at night. The hon. unaffected. Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) We need to consider the pricing mechanism, because gave very clear examples of what can be bought for if we do not do so, we will deny ourselves one of the £20, which was fascinating. The hon. Member for Totnes most potentially useful weapons in reforming destructive (Dr Wollaston) spoke with a great deal of experience behaviour as a result of alcohol. There is much to be and knowledge about the effects of alcohol on health, gained for the responsible drinker from looking at pricing. and her last point about a potential off-trade levy Set against higher prices for alcohol, there are costs that should be considered. can be saved in the areas of policing, cleaning the It is clear that, as a country, we have a problem with streets, and repairing vandalism, as well as the benefit alcohol. My hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent to the NHS and the general welfare state. Perhaps the has supplied statistics about the effect of alcohol as it Minister will consider highlighting more clearly the relates to Wales. We need to do something about this costs incurred by society due to the abuse of alcohol issue. Last week, we heard more disturbing statistics and making the case more strongly for looking at higher about liver disease in young people. The number of prices. Any pricing changes must be seen not only as young drinkers admitted to hospital with liver problems increasing the Treasury tax take, as the recent VAT has risen by more than 50% in the past 10 years. change does, but a reform that is firmly for the health of In government, the Labour party started to address our society and everyone in it. some of the problems relating to alcohol—for example, We have heard much today about how drinking habits the Policing and Crime Act 2009 banned irresponsible have changed over the years. People buy their alcohol drinks promotions. We all agree that we need to do cheaply in the supermarket, often in bulk, and consume more and to go further. From this morning’s debate, it is it at home. That is referred to up north as “getting clear that we need to go further than the coalition tanked up”, but I think that the technical word is Government’s current proposals, announced on 18 January, “pre-loading”. People then go out later in the evening to ban the below-cost pricing of alcohol. As I understand to take advantage of the later licensing hours, and so 285WH Alcohol (Minimum Pricing)2 FEBRUARY 2011 Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) 286WH end up spending less in the pubs and clubs, having spent hon. Gentleman takes this issue seriously. In his initial more with the supermarkets. The hon. Member for contribution in this House, he highlighted his concerns Burton has discussed his experience, perhaps when he about social and health inequalities in his constituency was slightly younger, of being in a pub or club and as well as other themes. I know how keenly he feels having the benefit of that controlled, supervised about these issues, and why he sought to secure this environment, which means that people can be helped if debate. they have a little too much to drink. That clearly does It is important to recognise that, for the first time, not happen if one is indulging in excessive drinking at because of research that we have undertaken and the home. many representations that we have heard, we have set On late night drinking, the Government have introduced out the need to establish a link between alcohol harms the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill and and price. I am delighted that the right hon. Member are considering a late night drinking levy, which is for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) is in his place, because we about asking pubs, clubs and licensed premises to contribute have reflected on the comments in the Home Affairs towards the costs of policing in areas that have late Committee report, which, interestingly, was published night drinking. While there is an element of the polluter in November 2008. That shows how time passes in this pays, which is an attractive idea, perhaps the Minister place. It recommended that the Government establish a will consider again the additional tax that will be charged legal basis for banning the use of loss-leading by to many small businesses and the bureaucratic nature of supermarkets—that was one of the key recommendations. introducing this levy. Perhaps he will comment on that. He and I have had several debates over the years on the I want to discuss building a culture of responsible issue and the points that arise from it. drinking. There is wide agreement that people need It is also important to say that our modelling indicates fully to understand the implications of their behaviour, that the change that we are proposing—duty plus VAT—will so I hope that the Government will consider bringing reduce the number of crimes by about 7,000 and hospital back the proposal to introduce personal social and admissions by about 1,000. We heard from the hon. health education into our schools, so that young people Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) in particular fully understand the problems of taking about his fears that the change will somehow drive the alcohol at an early age—many of them do not understand price down. I certainly do not see it that way. The sad that. Some schools teach the subject very well, but reality is that some products are deeply discounted. others do not. They will be caught by our proposals, and hence the My time is nearly up. The Government have announced change that we are seeing. the proposal that they wish to take forward, but could I appreciated my visit to the hon. Gentleman’s the Minister comment on why the Bill, which is currently constituency. I went to Newquay and saw some of the in Committee, does not include any clear proposals or good community work that is taking place on the clauses on this matter? Would he consider bringing ground, and how people are dealing with some of forward an amendment to include it, and, finally, would the issues around youth drinking and some of the he consider adding a further objective to the licensing pressures in certain towns. The Newquay Safe Partnership conditions and include a health harm objective? is an important example of that practical work, and I was delighted to visit his constituency. 10.50 am I am conscious that time is limited, so I apologise if I am unable to canter through everything. The hon. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Member for Blaenau Gwent asked about the options Home Department (James Brokenshire): This has been for bringing matters forward. I am certainly committed an exceptional debate. Some debates that we have either to doing that as soon as practicable. We are examining on the Floor of the House or in Westminster Hall are various options, but I intend to press forward quickly to partisan. Speakers may have entrenched positions and resolve matters and ensure that the measures are introduced may not necessarily reflect the views of the whole of the at the earliest opportunity. United Kingdom or, indeed, of all political parties, but There were also some questions about Treasury that is not the case this morning. That highlights the statements, and the hon. Gentleman asked about my impact of the issue and the concerns that people have comments on super-strength lagers. Before Christmas, about the misuse of alcohol and what we see in our the Treasury conducted its own analysis of duty and communities because of it. Equally, it reflects the complexity identified super-strength lagers of more than 17.5% alcohol of the matter, which can and should be addressed in by volume as a particular issue. It was considering several different ways. There are societal, health and options for duty in the Budget. I hope that that gives crime issues, and those themes came through clearly in him an idea of the time frame. a range of contributions, whether speeches or interventions, which have informed the debate and made it valuable. My hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) highlighted some of the practical issues I congratulate the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent on the booze bus that clears up some of the problems (Nick Smith) on securing this debate and allowing this late in the evening. I stayed out with the booze bus in discussion to take place. When I was doing my research, London late into the evening and saw people literally I thought that I had suddenly latched on to something being picked up off the street—they were dealt with when I discovered a page on the internet that said, professionally and impressively by the London ambulance “MP admits mistake”: service and paramedics. I found quite interesting the “MP Nick Smith has told Parliament he ‘got it wrong’” leaflet that they gave to the people with whom they on the drinking age, but I then discovered it was a dealt, who perhaps would reflect on it the following New Zealand MP with the same name rather than the morning when nursing the after-effects of what they hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent. I know that the had been through the night before. The leaflet highlights 287WH Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) 2 FEBRUARY 2011 288WH

[James Brokenshire] Children’s Centres the cost of the pick-ups—each case costs the London 11 am ambulance service some £200—and the fact that about 60,000 calls are made each year. I saw for myself some Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure of the real challenges that professionals have to deal to hold this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan, with on the ground, responding to the issue, which is and I am pleased to see the Minister here. She has why it is important to introduce several different measures written to me and other hon. Members on this subject to address the problems linked to excessive alcohol in detail. consumption. The question for which I seek an answer is why there There is a clear role for the industry. I have been is a difference of opinion between what the Government struck by some of the positive work, not just in Newquay, and the Minister are saying to local authorities, and on things such as community alcohol projects, Best Bar what local authorities are saying about funding Sure Nones, purple flags and some of the steps that are Start children’s centres. Last Thursday, Sefton council already being taken by the industry to address the voted to review all 19 children’s centres in Sefton, and to problem. Yes, more should and could be done, which is decide over the coming weeks which are to survive and why, for example, we are seeking to introduce the late-night which are to close. There is huge concern in my constituency levy. It will assist local communities with funding and that it will just cherry-pick from those services. support for policing and some of the other initiatives, The Minister told local authorities that the early such as the booze bus. intervention grant is designed to replace the funding for As a rejoinder to the hon. Member for Kingston children’s centres, and that there is sufficient money to upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) who described our guarantee the full network of centres over the coming response as bureaucratic, I gently remind her of the years. My question to her is: why are so many councils, previous Government’s alcohol disorder zones. If she including Sefton, saying that that is not true, and that thinks that what we are proposing is bureaucratic—it is the money has not come through? actually simple and straightforward—I point her in the As Polly Toynbee put it in The Guardian: direction of ADZs and the bureaucracy that was attached “The sleight of hand drives children’s services directors to to them. I hope that she will welcome some of the steps distraction.” that we are taking on pricing, because I know that the She goes on to say that the Minister right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and “has indeed given a specific early intervention grant to cover Sure Hessle (Alan Johnson), a former Home Secretary, indicated Start, but as she well knows it is considerably less than the bundle regret at not taking that on board. I welcome her of 22 grants it replaces. It amounts to a £1.4 billion cut in all early support as we go on to debate some of the detail around intervention programmes.” licensing in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): In the Bill during the coming weeks. case of Hammersmith and Fulham, the early intervention It is important to set the proposal for the ban on grant has been cut by 12.9%. The Minister may want to below-cost sales in our proposal to introduce a floor comment on that, as she has said that there is no need to price of duty plus VAT. The matter was considered cut Sure Start. The actual cut in service will be more carefully. There were some comments about the industry than 50%, with nine out of 15 centres closing, having making further suggestions. We consulted during the their grants reduced from £475,000 to £19,000—not summer on our proposals and listened carefully to the enough to run a service. That is the truth about Sure responses. Again, there were no simple solutions or Start on the ground at the moment. unanimous views on what should happen. This is a complex matter, and there are issues around competition Bill Esterson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his law. Also, we need to produce something that is intervention. We have found exactly the same problem understandable and easy to enforce. There are other in Sefton. We face at least a 12% cut in the early models such as invoice pricing, but we did not want to intervention grant. The council has been told that it is get involved in them because of the bureaucracy attached there to replace several early intervention projects. The to them. money is simply not enough to do the job that the Sadly, it appears that we are now calling time on this Government claim it is there to do. debate. Our proposals are a first step. We are determined Faced with the financial crisis and the cuts that the to tackle the harms caused by alcohol and are introducing Government are pushing through, the question is what a comprehensive suite of proposals on problem practices, gets dropped first. History shows us that early prevention problem licensing and problem people, and we are projects always come off worst. looking at how we can better support and aid recovery Polly Toynbee’s article continues: as part of our wider strategy. I have appreciated this “Where in this pecking order of need should children’s centres morning’s debate, which I am sure will continue. come? They offer the earliest help to young children, identifying difficulties before it is too late, a welcoming place to which Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Order. We must move on families can turn.” to the next debate. I ask hon. Members who are not Many of my constituents have written to me to say how staying to leave quickly and quietly. important those services are to them and their children. One parent at Hudson children’s centre in Maghull told me: “I am a mum to two small pre-school children and consider the children’s centre an integral part of my life. I was delighted when the centre first opened, shortly after having my first child. It soon became my lifeline, opening doors to new friendships and experiences. 289WH Children’s Centres2 FEBRUARY 2011 Children’s Centres 290WH

We enrolled for all the sessions available to us and thoroughly The network is so important. Families often use enjoyed meeting up with other parents and carers. The staff are several children’s centres, not only one, and those centres all so very caring and helpful, making us all feel like part of their work closely together. I cited some of the numbers of family. We still regularly attend the centre and feel distraught at families who use those centres, and I have seen how they the thought that this may come to an end if funding is cut. Not only would my children lose their valuable educational activities, are now an integral part of building successful and but I would also lose my support network. I plead with Sefton sustainable communities, and bringing together families council to carefully consider their actions regarding this matter, with different backgrounds from different parts of the as I feel our local community would be left devastated.” same community. If that network is broken in any way, A common theme coming through to me from parents, it would be a backward step. grandparents and carers, is that their children’s centre is I believe that children’s centres are as important in a vital lifeline, without which they would have nowhere phases 2 and 3 as they are in phase 1. Pockets of to turn. There are no other facilities; there are no other deprivation and people who are isolated exist in all places for many families to go. I mentioned the Hudson parts of our communities, not only the most deprived children’s centre in Maghull. More than 750 families areas. Therefore, it is essential that the network is retained. have used the services at that centre. A similar number How will the Minister ensure that councils carry out the has used the service at Thornton children’s centre in Government’s stated wishes to retain the network? At Crosby, and I have three more children’s centres in my the moment, it appears that in many local authorities constituency. All five are either phase 2 or phase 3 the money is not being passed on to keep the networks centres. Initially, Sure Start children’s centres were set open. The removal of the ring-fencing, and the fact that up in areas of maximum deprivation. The evidence the grant is not a like-for-like replacement of funding, coming through to me from the parents and families leaves that question open. The Minister will say that who use the phase 2 and 3 centres is that they are just as such matters are down to local determination, but if the important as the phase 1 centres. Government are serious about retaining Sure Start children’s People from many different backgrounds use the centres and the network, they must consider intervening centres in my constituency. One of the benefits we have in local authorities to ensure that their stated policy is found is that people, who would often be isolated without delivered on the ground. access to those services, meet and form their own support networks and make new friends. Suzanne Bentham uses Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): This is the Thornton children’s centre. She wrote to me to say: my first opportunity to serve under your chairmanship, “Thornton children’s centre is an essential part of my life. Mr Sheridan, and I am delighted to do so. I congratulate Firstly, I went with my partner for my antenatal classes, then with my hon. Friend on securing the debate. We have spoken my daughter who loves all the activities she does there. The staff about the subject in private, and we are both passionate and amenities are wonderful but most of all the atmosphere is the about it. Does my hon. Friend agree that Sure Start best bit. If I am feeling a little housebound, we can pop in and centres are a lifeline for the sort of communities that he join in or just chat. We attend most days. We have met so many people from all walks of life, all with stories or offers of help and I represent? Councils in Sefton and Liverpool are when you need it most. It is not just a play centre, it is a lifeline, faced with the most horrific decisions about the future and without it an awful lot of people, families and children, will of Sure Start centres because of the local government miss out on valuable skills to help throughout their lives. You see, settlement. Does he agree that Sure Start centres in the every child matters.” most deprived communities in the country should be My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North the most protected? (Mr Allen) reported in the past few weeks that early intervention and the support that children receive in Bill Esterson: My hon. Friend’s constituency is next their first five years are crucial. That makes all the door to mine, and many of his constituents use Sure difference and prevents many children and families Start centres in my constituency, just as many of my from having difficulties later in life. That is why children’s constituents use centres in his constituency in Liverpool. centres were set up by the previous Government, and The Holy Rosary children’s centre in Aintree village is why Sure Start matters. used by people who live in Fazakerley and Walton. My hon. Friend’s point about protecting phase 1 centres in Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): Would a more the most deprived areas is important, but I believe that sensible and humane approach for local authorities, phase 2 and 3 centres have come to deliver an equally which have suffered cuts in grants, be to consider important service for slightly different reasons. I would withdrawing some of the services Sure Start provides, not like to see any of those centres go, and it is important so that they keep the whole network? I say that because to maintain the entire network. People use centres from at some stage the Government are going to respond to phase 1 and from phases 2 and 3. my report, which advocated that, in some years, they should consider not automatically increasing children’s Let me turn to the report by my hon. Friend the rates of benefits, but using all or part of that money to Member for Nottingham North and some of the evidence build up the foundation years. There will be all the that he produced on early intervention. He cites some difference in the world if, in a year or so, the Government examples that illustrate the importance of early intervention: say more money is coming into the area, between those “A child’s development score at just 22 months can serve as an authorities that kept their network and those that decided accurate predictor of educational outcomes at 26 years. to shut up shop and disappear. Some 54 per cent of the incidence of depression in women and 58 per cent of suicide attempts by women have been attributed to Bill Esterson: I am grateful my right hon. Friend. His adverse childhood experiences, according to a study in the US. point about how vital it is to keep the network going An authoritative study of boys assessed by nurses at age 3 as is extremely well made. Perhaps I can make my own being ‘at risk’ found that they had two and a half times as many comments in support of that argument. criminal convictions as the group deemed not to be at risk…Moreover, 291WH Children’s Centres2 FEBRUARY 2011 Children’s Centres 292WH

[Bill Esterson] early intervention. There is enough money in the system to maintain the network of children’s centres, and we in the at-risk group, 55 per cent of the convictions were for violent have also provided extra investment for health visitors. offences, compared to 18 per cent for those who were deemed not However, I recognise the concerns that the hon. Gentleman to be at risk.” raised in his speech, and I will address those issues in The report goes on to make it clear that the costs of my response. investing in early years services are far outweighed by First, I will make a few general remarks about Sure those of dealing with the problems created later in life. Start children’s centres and the direction of reform, That is very apparent to people who use children’s which I hope will put things into context. Since my centres in my constituency. They tell me that not only appointment as a Minister, I have had the privilege of do their children do better at school than their older visiting many children’s centres around the country, and brothers and sisters who did not have the benefit of I have seen how highly they are valued by families and such a service, but that they can also start to see the communities. That point was echoed by the hon. Gentleman benefits of their children mixing with other children when he spoke of the testimony of individual constituents, and getting used to mixing with adults. and how much they have appreciated the support in Clearly, children and families do better where that their local area. service is available. I am sure that the Minister accepts Those positive messages are reinforced by the evidence. that the loss of that service would be a bad move. The 2008 and 2010 reports from the national evaluation Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): My hon. of Sure Start showed improved outcomes in a number Friend will know that the issues faced in my constituency, of areas including better behaviour, more positive parenting and across Sheffield, are similar to those faced in his skills and home learning environments, and better physical constituency. Thirty children’s centres and nurseries are health of children who live in an area with a Sure Start threatened by a £2 million funding cut. Does he agree programme. The evidence supports the messages we that in maintaining the network—an important point—the hear from families that children’s centres make a real choices that local authorities are forced to make when difference to their lives. changing the offer from children’s centres by reducing Last week, the Government published their response hours and charging will push many centres beyond to the report by the Select Committee on Education tipping point? That will make it impossible to maintain about Sure Start children’s centres. In that response, we the network. set out in more detail our vision for children’s centres: they should be accessible to all, but with a clear role in Bill Esterson: My hon. Friend makes an incredibly identifying and supporting the most vulnerable and important point. That is further evidence of the importance disadvantaged families. That policy vision will be built of maintaining the network as a whole and building on on by a policy statement that we intend to publish in the it. Yesterday, I spoke to the head teacher of a school spring. It will differ from many of the policy statements that has a children’s centre attached. She pointed out and the way in which we have produced them in the that a lot of evidence from the families served by that past, in that we intend to co-produce it with the sector, centre suggests that such centres should look to extend building on the ideas on the ground, on best practice their services to families with older children, so that the and on the sector’s views about how to shape the future good work can continue. That could perhaps link with of centres. youth services, which are also under threat. In fact, as of Evidence shows that children from advantaged last Thursday, the entire youth service in Sefton has backgrounds do better than those from disadvantaged been cut, and that will store up huge problems for the groups, with a range of health, cognitive and language future. differences becoming apparent by the age of three. I am conscious that the Minister needs time to respond Those are some of the issues to which the hon. Gentleman to the debate, but I want to remind her of what was said referred. It cannot be fair that children’s outcomes and by her right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. One of my life chances depend on the circumstances of their birth. constituents, Marie Creed, sent me a “contract” between An important element of children’s centres is their the Conservative party and her family. It states: accessibility. However, within that, I want them to be “We will support Sure Start, and boost it by paying for an extra better at targeting resources on the most disadvantaged 4,200 trained Sure Start health visitors.” and vulnerable families to help close that gap in outcomes. If the Prime Minster and the Minister are serious about Key areas for reform will include an increase in the supporting Sure Start, they must not only put in the use of evidence-based interventions, which the hon. money to keep that election pledge, but ensure that Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) spoke about councils deliver on it. Otherwise, for many families in in his report. We believe that public money should go to Sefton and elsewhere in the country, it will turn out to services that have proved their effectiveness, particularly be just another broken promise. in supporting the most disadvantaged and vulnerable families. We also want improved accountability and 11.18 am transparency. That includes the introduction of payment The Minister of State, Department for Education by results so that local authorities and providers are (Sarah Teather): It is a pleasure to serve under your rewarded for the results they achieve. We intend next chairmanship, Mr Sheridan. I begin by congratulating year to make local authorities publish more information the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) on about how they spend their money, so it will be clear securing this debate on an important topic. Like him, what money they are spending on children’s centres and the Government believe that Sure Start children’s centres what money they are holding back for administrative have a critical role to play in their communities, and support, which picks up on some of the points made by they are at the heart of the Government’s vision for the hon. Member for Sefton Central. 293WH Children’s Centres2 FEBRUARY 2011 Children’s Centres 294WH

We also want increased voluntary and community decisions on the ground in the same way that the sector involvement in children’s centres, so that organisations Government are having to make difficult decisions. We with a track record of supporting families can get more are trying to tackle the deficit, and it is not possible to involved. do that without reducing funds overall. When the situation is very difficult, it is even more important that we Bill Esterson: I want to pick up on the point about provide more flexibility for local authorities to make the analysing whether local authorities have passed on the right decisions in their area—to focus on what they money to children’s centres, and waiting until next year. need to do in their local community. That is precisely My concern, which was expressed strongly by my right why we have reduced the ring-fencing; we are responding hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), is to what local authorities have asked us to do. that that is too late. If they have not done that and the centres have started to close, it will be very difficult to Bill Esterson: There is a contradiction here, because rebuild the network. If there were a loss of that support on the one hand local authorities are being given so-called over crucial months or even a year, that would be a very freedom, but on the other the Government are saying long time for families to wait. that Sure Start children’s centres are an absolute priority. Unless there is some guidance from the Government or Sarah Teather: I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s point. we have something stronger and the Government legislate If it is okay, I will go on to say a little about the early for it, I fail to see how they can guarantee that the intervention grant and the particular concerns about network will be maintained and enhanced. reorganisation on the ground. The hon. Gentleman pointed to the 4,200 extra health Sarah Teather: Let me pick up on that point. The visitors whom we will be committing to recruiting. We right hon. Member for Birkenhead made a similar point hope that they will work alongside children’s centre about the network. I have a great deal of sympathy with outreach teams to support the families most in need. the point he made, particularly as we look down the That is being funded by the Department of Health. On track to the reforms the Government want to make. For our direction of travel, we want to work closely with the example, we are providing extra money for relationship sector on the ground to ensure that we are getting the support, which will train people working in children’s reforms right. We will be considering the report by the centres to deliver that on the ground. To respond to the hon. Member for Nottingham North and the review by point that the hon. Member for Sefton Central made the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), who about developing services for older children, all those intervened and whose point I will pick up on in a things are possible and are good things in an area. moment. We have also asked Dame Clare Tickell to However, if we do not give local authorities the flexibility review the early years foundation stage. That will inform to make the decisions that are right for their area, we the work we are doing. will not get a service that is suitable for local need: we will end up with a one-size-fits-all service driven from The bulk of what the hon. Member for Sefton Central Whitehall. spoke about related to his concern about the early intervention grant. We have made clear our commitment There is a difference between a local authority that is to Sure Start children’s centres. We believe that we have making catastrophic cuts to services for children and ensured that there is enough money to maintain the one that is trying to make sensible decisions in a very national network of centres and to enable local authorities difficult environment. That may include clustering children’s to meet their statutory duties. centres, merging back-office functions and reorganising where some of the centres are located because some Mr Slaughter: The Local Government Association buildings are not appropriate or because populations says that, on a like-for-like basis, there is a 27% decrease have changed since the stage 1 centres were put in place. in the early intervention grant when compared with the Those are all sensible reorganisations, and we have to previous year. My Conservative council, in trying to have some trust in local authorities to get on with that. excuse its cuts, says: Providing a more flexible grant, the early intervention “This grant is 12.9% less than the previous allocation for the grant, which is significantly larger than the children’s same services.” centre budget, should allow local authorities, if they Will the Minister deal with that point, about which she want to do so, to link together different services as they is in denial? Will she also deal with the point that the think about the long-term reorganisation of their children’s lack of ring-fencing means that councils such as mine centres, youth provision or family support, so that they can make outrageous decisions to close down stage 1 can offer things in a clustered way. I hope that that will children’s centres—exactly the ones she thinks should provide more flexibility for them to do the right thing. stay open? Their grant is being cut from £475,000 to There is a legal duty on local authorities to consult £19,000. That is happening in Shepherd’s Bush—an before opening, closing or significantly changing children’s area I think she knows well. centres. From what the hon. Member for Sefton Central said, it sounds as though in his area, parents will be very Sarah Teather: I recognise that there are particular vocal about what they want to see by way of the concerns in the hon. Gentleman’s area, and it is an issue provision of centres in their area. That is the right I am monitoring. However, I do not recognise the process. Parents should engage, and local authorities figures he gave from the LGA or the figures the hon. should listen to the views of families about how to Member for Sefton Central cited, I think, from Polly reorganise on the ground. Toynbee’s article. The hon. Member for Hammersmith However, Sure Start children’s centres are at the heart will recognise that this is a very difficult time financially, of what the Government want to do in the long term and that local authorities are having to make difficult with early intervention. Children’s centres are a very 295WH Children’s Centres 2 FEBRUARY 2011 296WH

[Sarah Teather] Coastguard Service valuable resource, but often full use is not made of [MR MIKE HANCOCK in the Chair] them. They are not always open all hours. There are opportunities for children’s centres—for example, where there are flexible services, such as baby massage—to 2.30 pm charge a nominal amount for those services in order to Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): It is a bring in small amounts of income. Local authorities great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, can think more innovatively about the way in which Mr Hancock. I am pleased to have secured this debate, they organise their children’s centres on the ground, but which is on a subject I believe to be of great concern to the priority is that we have outcomes. The Government coastal communities and seafarers alike. I sought the are trying to move towards measuring outcomes, rather debate so that the House could discuss the changes than always measuring inputs, which is why we will proposed by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to move towards more payment by results. It is why our reorganise our coastguard service. accountability framework will focus more on outcomes, particularly for the most disadvantaged children. I welcome the recognition given in the proposals to the importance of a volunteer coastguard service. I I am very grateful for the support that the hon. recognise the importance of improving incomes and Member for Sefton Central has given today to children’s career structures for the coastguards; doing so will centres. We believe that they are a vital service. I believe resolve years of industrial action. However, I am deeply that there is adequate money in the early intervention concerned about some aspects of the proposed changes. grant to fund the network of children’s centres, but I am grateful to him for raising the concerns in his area I am sure that all Members here today share my pride today. in the work of the coastguards in our communities. As a nation, we are reliant on the sea for trade and commerce. 11.29 am Our economy depends on a well-managed maritime environment; 95% of all UK trade is shipped to and Sitting suspended. from the rest of the globe. Shipping is the UK’s primary means of transport not only for commerce; we also depend on shipping to meet our energy requirements. As much as 80% of the world’s liquid fuel energy resources is transported by sea. If even a single tanker carrying liquefied natural gas were to fail to reach our shores, the lights in UK homes and factories would go out within a week. In short, our security and prosperity are almost entirely dependent on a well-managed maritime environment, and the coastguards provide an essential service in enabling that to happen. It is not only large commercial shipping that uses our seas. Consider for a moment our fishing industry, which is important to many coastal communities, and the pleasure craft used by tourists and water-sport enthusiasts alike. I know that many constituencies benefit from the tourism industry, and I am well aware of the role that it plays for my constituents in Cornwall, with more than £1.6 billion being spent by visitors each year. All of that could be jeopardised by a single oil tanker losing control or being damaged in bad weather. Only an effective coastguard service could prevent that from happening or minimise the impact of such events.

Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this important debate. She mentions the possibility of an incident happening that could devastate her constituency. Does she not agree that she may be looking through the wrong end of the telescope at the proposals of the Government and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency? It is about cost savings; it is not an insurance policy for the communities she mentions.

Sarah Newton: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, but I do not agree with him. I am assured by the MCA that it is not about cost reduction but modernising the coastguard service to ensure that it is fit for the 21st century. 297WH Coastguard Service2 FEBRUARY 2011 Coastguard Service 298WH

Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): On the question of the documents. It is particularly disappointing that none of cost savings, does my hon. Friend not agree that a the architects of the plans visited or discussed ideas for comparison needs to be made with the previous modernisation with the front-line team at Falmouth Government’s proposal to regionalise fire service control before the proposals were published. Had they done so, rooms, which is costing the country well over £400 million, we could have had a better set of proposals. and rising? If we contrast that with the Government’s We are very proud of the international rescue centre current proposal, such modernisation is likely to cost, at Falmouth. It sits below the castle built by Henry VIII rather than save, the Government money. to protect the entrance to the Carrick roads, the third largest natural harbour in the world and the most Sarah Newton: I thank my hon. Friend for that westerly safe haven for ships. It is the Atlantic gateway intervention, but I think it best to leave it to the Minister to England. The port of Falmouth currently handles to answer that question, as he has experience of the more than 4,000 shipping movements a year, and the impact of regionalisation of the fire service. Fal estuary has room for more than 10,000 leisure I reassure the House that every coastguard I have craft. As a result of European Union air quality spoken to has said that the service needs modernisation. directives, ships crossing the Atlantic have to bunker in The maritime environment is changing fast in many Falmouth. ways. Commercial ships are getting bigger and are less manoeuvrable, and we have more drilling rigs and offshore Falmouth coastguard station is responsible for search installations such as wind farms, not to mention the and rescue services for more than 450 miles of coastline growth in privately owned pleasure craft. The shipping and 660,000 square miles of the north Atlantic. It has lanes around our shores are more congested and our the largest rescue area of any UK coastguard station, climate is changing, with more unpredictable and volatile and it clearly has huge responsibility for safety at sea. weather. The result is that the seas are becoming more Not surprisingly, given its location, Falmouth co-ordinates hazardous. Many more people are participating in water international rescues at sea, as well on the coastline. sports of all kinds, and millions visit our coastline. Falmouth is the one point of contact for British ships They all need a modern coastguard service. anywhere in the world. In short, when a distress signal is sent, it goes to Falmouth. Falmouth is listening, and Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): I congratulate Falmouth takes action. Falmouth is also the UK the hon. Lady most sincerely on securing this debate. In co-ordinator of the global maritime distress and safety Northern Ireland we have an unusual, indeed unique, system, which assists vessels in distress. That includes set of circumstances. The one remaining coastguard is the emergency position indicating radio beacon, which based at Bangor in my constituency. As well as looking identifies stricken vessels anywhere in the world and after maritime emergencies, it is also responsible for co-ordinates the search directly or relays the information inland stretches of water, including the huge area of to the relevant authority. Lough Neagh and Lough Erne. It is also the only officially designated coastguard in the UK nominated by the Irish Government to act in the event of an Mr MacNeil: Does the hon. Lady agree with the emergency off the Donegal coast. assessment that I have heard from the MCA, which is that the pivotal work that she says happens in Falmouth could happen anywhere, in any office of the MCA? It Sarah Newton: I thank the hon. Lady for her does not particularly need to happen in Falmouth. contribution. I am reassured by the commitment given by the chief executive of the MCA, Vice-Admiral Sir Alan Massey. Sarah Newton: I shall come to that point later, but I He said that he will evaluate what people have to say, refute what the hon. Gentleman says. including what is said here today. I appreciate the fact that he is able to be here to listen to our debate. He said that Andrew George: My hon. Friend makes an important point. Falmouth is a pivotal station, and not having the “all those with an interest in what we do and how we do it will skills that are available there would be a great loss to the take this opportunity” nation. I doubt whether the skills of that station could to be part of the consultation process. I am reassured by be replicated elsewhere. Local staff have emphasised to that, and his presence here today underlines that me that the consultation was about one proposal, and commitment. that no alternatives were put forward. Many of the staff, who were not consulted at all, believe that alternatives Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op) should be considered, including those put forward by rose— staff at Falmouth and at other look-out stations.

Sarah Newton: I shall make a little more progress before giving way again. Sarah Newton: When I come to that point, I will make a suggestion that I hope will be carefully considered. The MCA has developed its proposals over a number of years. The previous Government ducked the question The Falmouth coastguard carries out a long list of of modernisation because they feared a backlash of specialist functions, which, following his recent visit, public opinion. Having reviewed the proposals and Sir Alan Massey is now aware of and will be able to take discussed them with the coastguards at the Falmouth into consideration in the consultation process. It is one marine rescue and co-ordination centre, I am disappointed of three specialist centres, along with Aberdeen, which that significant areas of work undertaken at Falmouth is responsible for the North sea oil platforms and drilling for the nation have been missed from the consultation rigs, and the Solent, which handles the English channel. 299WH Coastguard Service2 FEBRUARY 2011 Coastguard Service 300WH

[Sarah Newton] Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Order. I remind Members that 12 Members want to take part in the As would be expected, both those centres maintain a debate. Interventions must be short and to the point 24-hour watch, but Falmouth is to be downgraded to otherwise Members will be very disappointed. If the daylight operations. Such inconsistency must be addressed. intervention is really necessary, fine. If not, I urge Members to be respectful of other Members who want David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab) rose— to speak in this debate. Sarah Newton: I should like to make some progress. I appreciated the meeting that I had with Sir Alan Massey Anne Marie Morris: I entirely endorse what my hon. and his team yesterday to listen to their rationale for Friend is saying about her concerns with regard to their proposals for Falmouth. They were generous with Falmouth. If Brixham, my coastguard station, goes, their time, but I remain unconvinced of their case. I Falmouth and Southampton, which is 200 miles away, agree that there is a lack of resilience in the current will have to cope with something like 1,500 incidents, if system and the pairing arrangement. I agree that if last year’s figures are typical. Falmouth was hit by lightning, as I was told yesterday it has been on a few occasions, there would be a problem. Sarah Newton: I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful I also agree that networking all the stations around the intervention. The Falmouth coastguards have developed UK will enable a greater flexibility in managing resources effective working relationships with other services in the and improve the skills of coastguards in other UK area, such as the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, stations. Moreover, it would enable better management the RNAS Culdrose where the search and rescue helicopters of peaks in demand on the service. It is a good idea to are based, Falmouth harbour commissioner for the share the expertise and international relationships that co-ordination of tug boats to guide and protect larger the Falmouth coastguard has developed with other UK vessels, maritime fire services and the emergency ship coastguards to ensure a resilient service. repairer, A&P Falmouth. Remember that any vessel coming in from the Atlantic, large or small and in Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con) rose— distress, will rely on Falmouth for assistance. That Sarah Newton: I will give way in a moment. Nevertheless, includes the volunteers of the Mission to Seafarers, Falmouth should continue with its 24-hour cover as the which takes distressed mariners under its wings. Such leading international rescue centre, and it will be backed close working relationships have been cultivated over up by the network of coastguards in the rest of the UK. decades. That would address the stated aims of the proposals by The Falmouth station has achieved many positive improving resilience and creating a more flexible service outcomes. Take, for instance, the Fryderyk Chopin, a that is able to cope with the anticipated growth in Polish ship carrying 36 teenagers, or the MSC Napoli, demand and peaks and troughs of demand in the which was holed during a storm and forced to beach in service. It simply does not make sense and is a waste of Lyme bay. Were it not for the constant reassurance and money to develop a new centre and recruit and train effective search and rescue co-ordination provided by staff in Southampton, in order to replicate what is the Falmouth station, the outcomes of those recent recognised to work so well in Falmouth. incidents would have been very different. I might add Falmouth’s reputation for international search and that both those high profile incidents, which took place rescue is world renowned, and its expertise has been in the glare of the world’s media, occurred at night, and built up over many years. The monitoring and rescue that is precisely when the MCA wishes the station to be work carried out by Falmouth coastguard is not, as has closed. been suggested, a UK humanitarian gesture; it is absolutely a legal requirement of the UK Government. David Cairns: I congratulate the hon. Lady on making such a powerful case. Another recent high profile incident In the past two years, Falmouth coastguard station was the running aground of a nuclear submarine off the has handled 7,356 incidents, of which 4,590 were specifically west coast of Scotland. Clyde coastguard agency, which search-and-rescue missions. That makes Falmouth the is based in my constituency, has, in addition to all the busiest station in the whole UK for search and rescue. commercial pressure she mentions, the responsibility of Out of those incidents, a third took place at night, being the home of our nuclear-powered, nuclear-armed between 8 o’clock in the evening and 8 o’clock in the deterrent. Her constituency is outraged at Falmouth’s morning. Under the current proposals, that is when the being downgraded, but in my constituency, there is a station would be closed. proposal to close the coastguard station. Does she not, I have noted from the graphs provided by the MCA’s therefore, accept the point made by the hon. Member consultation document that Falmouth, compared with for St Ives (Andrew George) that there is a need to all other coastguard stations, does not have as much consider alternatives and not adopt this one-size-fits-all variation in its work load from month to month, and approach? nor does the work load disappear at night, as the MCA argues. In other words, while the MCA is correct in its Sarah Newton: That is just the sort of point that I was assertion that coastguard stations are generally busier hoping that hon. Members from all parties could make during the day and during the summer months, Falmouth to the Minister today. is almost unique in being busy at any hour of the day The MCA’s headquarters has not sent any formal throughout the entire year. The argument that the station training programme or competence framework to does not have to be manned during night hours due to a Falmouth. Instead, staff from the Falmouth station lack of work and seasonal variations does not hold have used their own initiative to manage and adapt water. these functions and to tailor them to suit the needs Several hon. Members rose— of the mariners under their care. Years of dedication 301WH Coastguard Service2 FEBRUARY 2011 Coastguard Service 302WH and experience have allowed the officers to develop and service, minutes of delay in an emergency cost lives. modify policies accordingly. Allowing these men and That is a very welcome confirmation from the Minister, women to work out their own practices, rather than because that sort of delay— adhering to centrally controlled diktats has meant that Falmouth has developed best practice not only in the Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Will the hon. UK but across the globe. International partners will Member give way on that point? often look to Falmouth to see how they can better manage and co-ordinate their waters. It is not uncommon Sarah Newton: I will just make a bit more progress. to visit the Falmouth station and find international delegations there learning how the station operates. Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Order. I ask Members When they want to see how the UK coastguard system to be a bit more careful and respectful of the other works, they do not go to the MCA headquarters in Members who want to speak. I want to get as many Southampton; they go straight to Falmouth. A south people in to speak as possible. The hon. Lady has now American country’s coastguards are instructed, “When been speaking for 20 minutes and it will be difficult to in doubt, call the Falmouth coastguards.” get many Members in if the winding-up speeches start 20 minutes before the end of the debate. So please respect that. Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): The hon. Lady talks about the local knowledge of the Falmouth Sarah Newton: Thank you, Mr Hancock. coastguards, but that is something that can be lost Yesterday the MCA team told me that the location of across the entirety of our coastline. My constituency someone calling 999 for assistance using either a land-line includes Rathlin island, the only inhabited island off or a mobile phone could be identified by whichever the coast of Northern Ireland. If the skills of the coastguard answers the phone in any part of the UK, coastguards there are lost, it will mean the loss of many by using the latest technology. However, I remain sceptical more lives around our coast. I agree wholeheartedly of such claims and I worry about an ever-growing with the hon. Lady. Does she not agree that the proposals reliance on technology. How resilient are those networks? to pass co-ordination on to a yet-to-be-developed IT system and software system pose genuine concerns for During the same conversation with the MCA team the future protection of lives on our coast? yesterday, I was slightly reassured by the fact that the MCA proposals include the plan to test rigorously and evaluate each step of the new system before proceeding Sarah Newton: I very much agree with the hon. to the next stage. Those “gateways” acknowledge Gentleman. I am very sceptical about the capabilities of that the proposals will need real-life testing before some of the technology that is being advanced, and I implementation. Much more needs to be done to will discuss that later. Even the MCA headquarters demonstrate the veracity of the claims made for the appreciates the best practice that has been worked out technology as well as the impact on response times. As in Falmouth. It has published its work in the coastguard the Minister knows, minutes of delay cost lives. operations bulletin, which is a testament to its inventiveness, ingenuity and ability to solve problems quickly and Although I have had only a short time to raise a few efficiently. issues with the Minister today, I hope that he can reassure the people of Cornwall that he values the work Handing over the research and rescue co-ordination of the Falmouth coastguard and, furthermore, that the for such a large area to another marine operations views of the Falmouth coastguard and those of the centre will inevitably lead to a loss of efficiency, which Falmouth harbour commissioners, harbourmasters and will affect the outcomes of some incidents. Coastguards mariners alike, who all have a great deal of experience have expressed to me their grave concerns about the loss of dealing with the coastguard service and who are all of local knowledge and the impact that that will have deeply concerned by the downgrading of the Falmouth on the co-ordination of local coastal rescue. coastguard station, are fully taken into account by the I understand that, on his recent visit to Falmouth, MCA consultation review team. Coastguards have publicly Sir Alan Massey stated that the process of identifying expressed grave concerns about the impact of the current the particular location of someone in distress and requiring proposals on safety and, quite understandably, there is urgent assistance will be longer than it is now, with a a great deal of public opposition to the proposals to possible 10 minutes added to emergency response times. downgrade the Falmouth station and the other stations about which we have heard from Members today. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport As I draw my remarks to a close, I want to reiterate (Mike Penning): I will not interrupt my hon. Friend for one simple important point. All the aims of modernisation, too long, but the assertion that the response time will be which will provide a resilient 21st century coastguard increased by 10 minutes is wrong. I do not know where service, of which the UK can continue to be proud, can that information comes from. The response time is five be delivered with Falmouth’s coastguard remaining the minutes now and it will be five minutes in future—that jewel in the crown of the MCA, as the world-leading is important. international marine and rescue centre.

Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Thank you for that 2.53 pm clarification. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair today, Mr Hancock. I Sarah Newton: I am sure that everybody listening to will try to adhere to your request to keep contributions this debate greatly appreciates that intervention and the brief to enable other hon. Members to speak, because a reassurance given by my hon. Friend the Minister, considerable number of hon. Members are interested in because, as he knows from his experience in the fire this debate. 303WH Coastguard Service2 FEBRUARY 2011 Coastguard Service 304WH

[Katy Clark] few months and it is therefore cheaper to close that particular station than, for example, the station in Aberdeen, Of course, the announcement about the coastguard where the costs of closure would be extensive. was made not in an oral statement to Parliament but by way of a written statement, and this is hon. Members’ Mr MacNeil: The hon. Lady has made an important first opportunity to debate the issue. One of the things point. The principles that are pushing this process are that I will be asking the Minister for today is that we do not the principles that should be pushing it. The not just have this Adjournment debate and that hon. considerations are not marine considerations, but real Members have a fuller opportunity to debate this issue, estate considerations. The Aberdeen situation is particularly because there are serious concerns about the implications interesting, because the MCA has problems with the of these proposals for the coastguard service, if they go leases on the Aberdeen building. In addition, the MCA ahead. has not considered the high turnover of staff in Aberdeen I speak as someone who represents a coastal constituency. in comparison with other stations. Indeed, a considerable number of my constituents work in the coastguard service. My experience—I believe that Katy Clark: Indeed. The hon. Gentleman has made others have also experienced this—is that the coastguard some powerful points. service has been treated differently from other emergency People who have not visited a coastguard station services for many years, not least regarding pay. Many might be surprised to learn about the role of coastguards. hon. Members will be aware that coastguard officers The reality is that the way in which a station operates is often earn only in the region of £13,500 per year, that the operative who takes an emergency call usually despite the fact that they have not only responsible stays in charge of that incident throughout the whole positions but positions that require a great deal of process, which hopefully leads to the person who called expertise developed over many years. being rescued. That operative has to liaise with a range The proposals that we are discussing today will probably of other agencies, and they have to call on their own lead to more than 200 coastguard officers losing their experience as a coastguard and on the knowledge that jobs. In many areas of the country, particularly in they have developed of the terrain in which they are Clyde, it is unlikely that any officers losing their jobs operating. In the west of Scotland in particular, there is will be relocated within the coastguard service. The a huge amount of concern that if there is only one coastguard service at Greenock is in an area of high coastguard station in Scotland, much of the expertise unemployment and deprivation. The reality is that the and local knowledge that individuals have developed relocation schemes that are available to civil servants over many years would be lost. will not make relocation for individuals—for example, The Clyde coastguard station’s area of responsibility to Aberdeen, which is an area of high cost, or to the is the largest coastguard area in the UK, and the station south of England—a reasonable prospect. Indeed, I has 41 coastguard rescue teams under its control. There have constituents who are in that position. They know are 26 ferry operations to island communities in the that if they lose their job at Clyde when the coastguard area, including to Arran and Cumbrae in my own station there closes—if that closure is allowed to go constituency, as well as a number of other ferry operations ahead—other opportunities will not be available. to other islands off the west coast of Scotland. If we include the sea lochs, which are part of the terrain in the Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ area, there are 1,900 miles of coastline. I have always Co-op): I have been in another Committee, which is been told by those who work in the coastguard service why I was not here earlier. This issue is important to my that a huge amount of local knowledge acquired over constituents and to the constituents of many hon. Members many years is essential for the role of coastguard. who are here in Westminster Hall today. Of course, my concern is particularly about the Forth coastguard station, which is on the other side of Scotland to my hon. Bill Esterson: A similar point has been made to me by Friend’s constituency. The Forth station is also proposed the staff at Crosby coastguard station in my constituency, for closure. There is also a sub-centre that covers my which is listed as “Liverpool”. They say that in Liverpool constituency’s shoreline. bay and throughout the Irish sea there are many creeks, gullies, mudbanks and sandbanks. That local knowledge, In the firth of Forth, we have three major oil and from many decades of experience, is vital in shortening liquid gas terminals. We also have a new bridge and a the time taken to get search and rescue to the right number of anchorages, and a new wind farm is being place. built. Does my hon. Friend agree that the firth of Forth is another area where safety means that closure should not go ahead and that having one coastguard station for Katy Clark: My hon. Friend has made an incredibly the whole of Scotland is not acceptable? important point. In the west coast of Scotland coastguard area, there are, I think, eight Tarbets, so when someone Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Order. I think that on a leisure craft phones the coastguards and tries to you are pushing your luck there with that one. That describe where they are, expertise and local knowledge intervention was more like a speech. are required to assist the distressed vessel. The proposals seem to be based on the view that it Katy Clark: It is far from clear what criteria have will be possible for much of the slack to be taken up, been used to develop these proposals. I hope that, when and much of the work to be undertaken, by volunteers, the Minister responds to the debate, he will address that who form a huge part of the coastguard service. issue. It has been suggested that the Clyde coastguard Coastguards rely on their local knowledge to assist station has been proposed as one of the stations that people in difficulties, but more than that they have to will close, because its lease is due to expire in the next rely on the coastguard rescue teams, and it is surely 305WH Coastguard Service2 FEBRUARY 2011 Coastguard Service 306WH wrong for more pressure to be put on those teams. As the only area within inshore coastal waters where ship- we develop the service, we should try to ensure that we to-ship oil transfers are allowed. I recognise that 70% of do not have to rely on individuals who have work incidents involve leisure vessels—a high proportion of commitments of their own, and that we do not put activities up and down the coast, and in and out of the them in a position in which they might be pressurised creeks and estuaries, are leisure based—in addition to and get involved in incidents, because it is not possible incidents in the shipping lanes around Felixstowe. for the paid structure to provide the service. The way in I am interested to understand how the decisions which we operate our coastguard system in this country about which centres should remain open were made. is perhaps a cheap way of doing so, in that we rely on Yarmouth and Thames both respond to a large number volunteers. of incidents, of which there are more than in Dover. There are particular concerns about the west of Scotland, Dover also has responsibility for the Dover strait and both because of the terrain and, increasingly, because the Channel Navigation Information Service. I would of the number of vessels—including leisure vessels—with have thought that the number of incidents handled by the extension of marinas and of sailing on that coast. each centre would have come into the review, but I do Will the Minister indicate the criteria that have been not see how that has been addressed. On a broader used to come forward with the proposals? Given the point about the Border Agency, I would have thought great concern among hon. Members, will he ensure that that the coastguard service would be one of the links in there are further opportunities to debate these issues? trying to ensure that we have safer borders. In the consultation, there is a focus on allowing senior managers Several hon. Members rose— to free up time to have such a relationship with other partners. The police are specifically mentioned, and I Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Order. The Front assume that that relates not only to people’s safety but Benchers have decided that they will take no more than to crime and other such activities. 10 minutes each, so if everyone who wants to speak The narrative from my constituents includes the keeps to about four minutes, everyone who is here will assumption that the closure of the coastguard centres get to speak. means that there will be no full-time paid coastguards delivering the service. It would be helpful if the Minister were to clarify whether in areas where coastguard centres 3.2 pm are to be closed, we will rely solely on volunteers. If that Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I shall do is the case, I will be genuinely concerned. I share the away with the niceties, apart from congratulating my coastguard at Lowestoft, and its branch at Southwold, hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah with my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Newton) on securing this exceptionally important debate. Waveney (Peter Aldous), and the teams there are about However, I will say something else that is a bit of a 60% full. Southwold has five vacancies and Lowestoft nicety—I do not want to suggest that the Minister is in seven, which means that we have only three people on any way committed to increasing risk for the people of the Southwold team. this nation. He and the hon. Member for Poplar and The consultation document also mentions some of Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) both served in the fire the roles that the coastguard will have in the future—vessel service, and they are absolutely committed to the safety traffic monitoring, for example. It talks about how of one and all in a far stronger way than I have automatic identification systems provide ever been. “precise real time data up to about 30 miles from the coast”, I welcome several of the proposals and believe that which is welcome, but it also states: change is required. I recognise that changes in technology “In the coming years the development of Long Range Identification and the evolving nature of our seas mean that the status and Tracking (LRIT) will mean that ships can be tracked over quo is not always necessary. I was surprised to discover, much longer distances”. as a result of the consultation, that most of our coastguard It would be interesting to understand the time scale for stations are linked only to each other, and particularly that, and how it will fit into the role of vessel traffic that Thames and Yarmouth are not linked. Those are monitoring. There is also the creation of counter-pollution the two coastguard stations that cover my constituency, officer roles, which all seem to be based in Southampton, with the Yarmouth centre covering down to about and an understanding of some of the risk assessments Southwold, and the Thames centre at Walton-on-the-Naze undertaken would help us to see in which parts of the coming up the other way. I welcome changes that mean country are perceived to have the greatest pollution that coastguard centres will be working together, regardless challenges. of numbers. I also welcome the changes that will enhance the volunteer side, and I understand that aspects of pay I come back to ship-to-ship transfers. I do not seek to might be being looked at, so that we can invest in the use the debate to open up that issue, but when it was people who remain in the coastguard service. mentioned, Yarmouth coastguard agency was identified as the monitoring body. I want to point out a few issues that relate to my constituency and to try to get some clarity from the I will finish here, Mr Hancock. Minister. The consultation document discusses how the seas are becoming more congested and how ships are Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Thank you very getting larger. It talks about oil carriers, a busier coastline much. and extreme weather conditions that lead to increased coastal flooding. All those issues apply fully and squarely Dr Coffey: I appreciate that. I was one of the hon. to my constituency, where we have the largest container Members who submitted a letter requesting to speak port in the country at Felixstowe and, as of April 2011, before the debate. 307WH Coastguard Service2 FEBRUARY 2011 Coastguard Service 308WH

[Dr Thérèse Coffey] We must remember that the coastguard protects not only the coast, but, as the hon. Member for North I would be grateful if the Minister were to clarify Down has said, Lough Neagh, Lough Erne, inland whether the response to incidents will be solely from fisheries and inland lakes. It also provides an inland volunteers, so that instead of having to resort to freedom mountain rescue service for the Mornes and the Sperrins, of information requests we could provide more detailed and it is the point of contact for all helicopter operations information, by centre, on timing and number of incidents. in Northern Ireland. I would also be grateful if he were to refer to the The current proposals will leave Northern Ireland monitoring of ship-to-ship transfers. without a full-time coastguard station. This front-line emergency service has saved countless lives since its 3.9 pm establishment. In the past year alone, the Northern Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I Ireland team has dealt with more than 700 incidents. congratulate the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth For me, my constituents and all my colleagues in Northern (Sarah Newton) on securing the debate. Ireland, saving lives is paramount. My constituency of South Down in Northern Ireland The document that has gone out to consultation plays host to two of the three fishing ports in Northern proposes that the Belfast Lough station, which is based Ireland, and as a community we share a long, proud at Bangor, might become a part-time station or that it and sometimes difficult history of fishing and seafaring. might close, in which case our nearest coastguard would Over the years, my constituency has seen its share of be the part-time station in Liverpool. The nearest full-time tragedies and miraculous rescues at sea. Each time—whether station would be at Aberdeen, on the east coast of it has been to bring family members’ bodies home from Scotland. Co-operation is certainly important. Our the sea or to undertake those miraculous rescues—we co-ordination with Scotland and the south of Ireland have looked to our coastguard, which has always performed have been invaluable in saving lives in previous rescue an amazing service. missions. I support north-south co-operation. In Northern Ireland, the Bangor coastguard station, Ian Paisley rose— which is located in the constituency of the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), faces possible closure. There is a proposal to transfer its operational role to Ms Ritchie: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman. another station, perhaps in Liverpool or Aberdeen, many miles away. Hon. Members will be aware that Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Order. We do not opposition to the consultation proposals is mounting, want a long debate about co-operation. and I hope that the Minister will allay many of the concerns that have been raised. Ian Paisley: What an opportune time to get an intervention. In 1989, I was involved in an attempt to Lady Hermon: Let me tell hon. Members, and particularly rescue two drowning children off the coast of Northern the Minister, that it is rare for any subject to unite all the Ireland. They had been holidaying there, but, unfortunately, parties in Northern Ireland. We are talking about saving one of them died. However, if it had not been for the the one remaining coastguard in Northern Ireland, co-ordination that the hon. Lady has mentioned, there which is the only part of the United Kingdom that risks would have been a double tragedy. It is essential that losing its coastguard service. I extended an invitation people recognise and get to grips with the fact that to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to Northern Ireland will be naked to the ravages of the sea make a joint visit to the station, and I am delighted to if we do not properly protect our coastguard. say that both accepted it warmly. The First Minister is from the Democratic Unionist party, the Deputy First Ms Ritchie: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. Minister is from Sinn Fein and the hon. Lady is a Co-ordination and co-operation are vital, particularly member of the Social Democratic and Labour party, so on the island of Ireland. Closing the coastguard station this issue has united all parties. I hope that the Minister in Northern Ireland is foolhardy, because there is a need remembers that. for both coastguard services on the island of Ireland to work together and to co-operate. Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Order. Sylvia, you have a lot of charm, but you are pushing it to extremes. The chief executive of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, Sir Alan Massey, has indicated that the closures Lady Hermon: Thank you, Mr Hancock. I take that can be offset by the introduction of new technologies, as a compliment. such as Google Earth. Although I support the introduction of such measures, which can help to save lives, they Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Yes, it is a compliment. must supplement, rather than replace, existing provisions. Only you would have got away with that. Nothing can replace local knowledge of the waterways or, in the case of Northern Ireland, the mountainous Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. regions. That knowledge has been built up by generations She is indeed correct. of people living in the local communities. The Northern Ireland coastguard service at Bangor provides a vital service to the fisheries and tourism Bill Esterson: I represent the Liverpool coastguard sectors right from Lough Foyle to Carlingford Lough. station, so let me express a degree of solidarity across Axing such a service will put at risk not only livelihoods, the Irish sea. The staff at Liverpool recognise exactly but lives. The Government must not take for granted the points that the hon. Lady and other Northern the courage of those who devote time to rescue efforts Ireland Members have made about the dangers of Liverpool on our shores. Funding must be protected. trying to look after Northern Ireland. They do not feel 309WH Coastguard Service2 FEBRUARY 2011 Coastguard Service 310WH equipped to do so, and although they welcome new Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) on technology, they also recognise that local knowledge tabling her early-day motion, which I was pleased to and experience are critical. They do not want to stay sign. open at the expense of Belfast, because they want both I grew up by the sea in Cornwall. My great-granddad stations to stay open. made his livelihood as a fisherman. My constituency’s north coast is protected by services from Brixham, Ms Ritchie: It is important to emphasise for the while its south coast is protected by services from Falmouth, historical record that, in 1994, the then chief coastguard, so there is every danger that we will suffer a double Commander Derek Ancona, told the Select Committee whammy. My intention is to press the Minister for on Transport that the importance of local knowledge assurances that that will not happen, and that he will should not be underestimated, and that point needs to always put the safety of those who use the sea before be taken on board. any other consideration. I do not think that any hon. Members doubt the Mr MacNeil: I am heartened to hear that Liverpool importance of the sea for trade, our food supply, leisure and Belfast are not accepting the framework that the and our ability to come and go from these islands and MCA has given them to set them at each other’s throats. explore the rest of the world. The people who protect We have had the same situation between Stornaway and our safety and ensure that we can benefit from all that Shetland, and we are not accepting that, too. We in the the sea, and sea lanes, provide are the coastguards. As Western Isles believe that Shetland should stay open my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth 250 miles away because it is needed for the safety of said, in a well-argued and passionate speech, Falmouth mariners there. Stornaway should stay open as well. is already a centre of excellence for what it does; it is the I am pleased that our message to the MCA is the same. place the rest of the world looks to to learn how to do such things. It concerns me greatly that the Government Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Order. Ms Ritchie, I choose, outside of anything mentioned in the coalition urge you to watch the time. agreement, to consider the reforms. Ms Ritchie: Thank you, Mr Hancock. I will do so. I shall be brief, to give other hon. Members the chance to speak. I want some reassurance from the Minister Previous attempts by Governments to implement that the consultation is a real one, that the outcome has large-scale technological developments have frequently not been prejudged and that he will listen to all the encountered delays and cost overruns. We must ensure bodies that are responding to the consultation. I want that we do not lose our existing resources and that we his assurance that the Government are exploring all do not rely on the hope that needs can be met by using other options to make the necessary revenue savings new technologies alone. Indeed, the same technology without reducing front-line services, and that at all on which the coastguard is meant to depend has just times the safety of those who use the sea will come been discarded by the UK’s fire and rescue service, before any other considerations. Other hon. Members because it cannot rely on it. We risk people’s safety have noted that we are of course dealing with the need becoming dependent on information technology that to modernise the service and, as my hon. Friend the has not yet been implemented and which has not even Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) said, improve been designed. Let us have new technology by all means, resilience, adapt to modern technologies and face a new but we should supplement it with local knowledge. century in a different way; but we must remember that Finally, I hope that the Minister will see fit to ensure we are an island nation and need the sea. It behoves us that the proposal for the Belfast coastguard station at in this House to protect those who use it. Bangor is abandoned. I hope that the message goes home to him and the Department that Northern Ireland 3.21 pm needs to retain its services. My colleagues in Northern Ireland and I represent all the Northern Ireland Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I congratulate the constituencies, and we wholeheartedly oppose any attempt hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) to remove those services. on securing the debate. I raised the issue of the need for a Government debate on the matter with the Leader of Several hon. Members rose— the House, because of its importance and the timing of the announcement a few days before Christmas. I want Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Order.Itismy to praise coastguard workers, volunteers and officers, intention to call Mr Gilbert, then Mr Owen and then and to thank the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, Dr Wollaston. I will then try to fit everyone else in. Can among other organisations; I am a member of its council. we please give others the chance to make their contributions? Search and rescue is another important part of the mix, and we need proper co-ordination. 3.18 pm I have limited time—and will respect your judgment, Mr Hancock—and will concentrate on local knowledge Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): I and the Welsh dimension of that, which there has not will make every effort to show atypical restraint in my yet been the opportunity to discuss, as well as previous remarks. I give notice to all colleagues that I will not inquiries by the Select Committee on Transport into the give way. Maritime and Coastguard Agency. Those are important. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Truro I agree with what has been said about local knowledge. and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) on securing this absolutely It cannot be managed by a centre far away. The response key debate. The number of people here shows the time and co-ordination are essential, and require local concern that is shared across the House and the country, knowledge, which cannot be transferred from one part as well as across all parties. I also congratulate the hon. of the country to another. 311WH Coastguard Service2 FEBRUARY 2011 Coastguard Service 312WH

[Albert Owen] the matter. I said that I would raise it. Under the time constraints of this debate no hon. Member can do their The current process has more to do with centralisation area justice. We need a debate in Government time and than modernisation. I support devolution and real localism, I urge the Minister to suspend the consultation and and what is happening goes against that by centralising proposals until the issues have been properly dealt with services in the most northern and southern parts of the and seriously given the consideration they deserve. United Kingdom, rather than having them dispersed in different areas. I think there is an element of cost 3.26 pm driving the process for the Government. I am sad to say that, but I think it has the potential to lead to loss of Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I want to talk life. I see the badge that the Minister is wearing; I served about Brixham maritime rescue co-ordination centre in the merchant navy for more than 17 years and I have and its importance. Last year it co-ordinated more than some knowledge of the sea, having worked on it, and 1,300 search and rescue incidents, assisting more than representing an island constituency, so I do not make 1,900 people and saving more than 350 lives; 78% of those statements lightly: I believe them. I pay tribute to those incidents were inshore or shoreline. Those are the my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse incidents that need local knowledge, as I think all hon. (Jim Fitzpatrick) who, when he was the Minister, did Members would agree. not duck the issue but dealt with it and listened. He had Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): Local knowledge representations from all sides of the House when there is an extremely important point from a west country was the potential for closures in the past, but he did not perspective. I wonder where someone in Solent would feel he should move forward with the speed and haste direct services if a call came in that someone was in that is being adopted now. difficulties off Blackpool beach. We have a Blackpool beach, just as Lancashire does. Andrew George: Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point? Dr Wollaston: I thank the hon. Gentleman. Of course, we have the equivalent of 22 full-time and highly skilled Albert Owen: I am not going to take any interventions. watch-keepers. I know that the Minister pointed out I apologise, but I know that some hon. Members have that local knowledge will not be lost because the individuals made two or three interventions, whereas I only have a can be relocated—to Falmouth, in the case of my area. short time and did not make any. However, unfortunately Falmouth is also drastically cutting staff under the proposals, so I suspect that the There is a Welsh dimension to the issue. Swansea highly skilled staff at Brixham will find that very difficult. would be the only coastguard left under the proposals. I suggest that their important local knowledge would be That is a long way from Holyhead in my constituency in in danger of being lost. The point about local knowledge the north-west, which is strategically important in the is that Devon, for example, had 25.2 million visitors last Irish sea. I pay tribute to all those hon. Members from year—bringing in £2 billion to the local economy—and the west coast of Scotland and, indeed, Northern Ireland those individuals have no local knowledge. I have been and the north-west of England who have spoken. We told by a coastguard that very often a distress call will should not be pitting coastal communities against each come in from people who do not know where they are. other. We are talking about the safety of the British They might know that they are in Devon but they will coastline and we need strategically important coastguard not know they are on Blackpool beach, for example. stations in that strategic overview. That could be They have no local knowledge and are often very distressed. compromised. The highly skilled individuals dealing with them on the There is also a Welsh language issue, to do with local phone must cope with that, to find out where they are. knowledge and the identification of places. Incidents The other issue is IT. My experience of IT in the have occurred in other emergency organisations that NHS, for example, is that we had a £12.7 billion project, have been centralised, and I should like the Minister to which was very disappointing, over-budget and highly look into the matter. The fire service, ambulances and overrated. We have also seen what the fire service police in north-west Wales have gone to the wrong experienced, which I shall not talk about much as it is location because either they cannot pronounce the place the Minister’s area of great expertise. My understanding name or they have mixed it up with another location of is that it cost £423 million and the Taunton regional fire the same name. That is a question of lives, and it is far centre has not opened. The air traffic control system too important to deal with it by saving costs and went £150 million over budget and was much delayed. centralising, putting the service at risk and exposing it I would say, to coin a phrase, “Over-budget, overrated, even further. over time and over here.” Finally, in 2003-04 the Transport Committee looked Andrew George: One of the primary drivers—in fact into the future of the MCA and closures in Oban, Tyne the primary one, to go by page 16 of the consultation and somewhere else—it escapes me. The Committee document—is so-called limited resilience. As the document concluded that there was a need for a proper safety recognises, coastguard stations are paired. There is no impact study, and I do not believe—there is no clarity suggestion that the resilience has failed. Yet we are not about it—that that has been carried out, years down the told anywhere in the document how resilience is improved line. It would be a crying shame to rush into a new under the proposals. closure programme when the safety impact studies have not even been done on the previous recommendations Dr Wollaston: I thank the hon. Gentleman. I agree. of the Transport Committee. Holyhead is strategically Currently, we have paired coastguard stations, which important. There is a Welsh dimension to the question. are directly linked by cable as part of an existing BT The Minister had the courtesy to phone me up about cable network. In addition, the stations are linked by 313WH Coastguard Service2 FEBRUARY 2011 Coastguard Service 314WH point-to-point communications on a so-called BT I find it even more amazing that a risk assessment kilostream unique to the coastguard—a kind of private was not carried out specifically on the consultations. radio network used by VHF radios. However, I find it I am now hearing that a risk assessment will be carried hard to understand why it is so difficult to piggyback on out after the consultations, to make up for what has existing cable networks to network all stations. I am been done. Who can trust a risk assessment done after a dubious of the argument that it would be immensely consultation? We will be suspicious of any risk assessment expensive. I suggest that it is possible to network all from the MCA that is done to dovetail with MCA existing stations at less cost than has been stated. It has proposals. I am shocked, as are many other people. also been stated that coastguard radio equipment is When we had a meeting, all the Stornoway coastguard 12 years old and needs upgrading, and that it cannot be workers were shocked that no risk assessment had been installed in existing coastguard stations, but the vast done. majority of calls are made by phone. Leaving Scotland with only one coastguard station in Brixham has been disadvantaged by the costings. In Aberdeen, where staff turnover is high, is also worrying. the year the costings were made, Brixham received a We need Shetland and Stornoway. They are 250 miles brand-new roof and an upgrade to its generator, which apart. Stornoway covers about 50,000 square miles at means that the building will now be fully fit for purpose the moment; I do not think that it needs more. for the next century. Given that its ongoing running As I said, no risk assessment has been done. No costs will be considerably lower, it seems a shame that evidence is available on the impact of the reforms. The those renovations have been taken into consideration. councils in the Hebrides and Shetland have commissioned Like the coastguard stations in many colleagues’ their own research into exactly what they will mean. constituencies, Brixham also performs other functions. We feel that the proposals are technically flawed, and For example, the marine surveyors, which are vital to there are serious doubts about the reliability of the the Brixham trawler, are based there. Brixham also communications technology on which they rest. houses cliff rescue equipment, a rescue vehicle and a The proposed reforms are also being touted as an radio station. I hope the Minister will take that into efficiency saving, but I argue that the potential gains are consideration. minimal. It is estimated that just over £120 million will As many Members have said, we do not want one be saved over the next 25 years, or about £4.8 million station to be pitted against another. We call on the a year. To put it in perspective, that is such a small part Minister and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to of the Department for Transport budget that it was not review the proposals thoroughly and hold a debate on even included in its comprehensive spending review the Floor of the House. figures. It is absolutely astonishing what is going on. I am aware of the time, so I will come to an end fairly 3.32 pm quickly. To give a wee illustration, if someone in distress is using their radio and the ship is at Miavaig or Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) Meavaig, but they only say it once, where is that ship in (SNP): Thank you, Mr Hancock. I will dispense with distress? That is what we are talking about. Ultimately, the normal formalities to allow other people to speak. we are considering not efficiency but a marine insurance In the past week, the coastguard at Stornoway has policy. I have not even mentioned the tugs that we are dealt with a French fishing boat on Rum, rescuing losing on the west coast of Scotland. There are huge 14 people aboard, and a Tornado aircraft in the water questions connected with the plans. They are ill conceived, off Rubha Reidh near Gairloch. Submarines have grabbed ill thought out and ill advised. The Government should the headlines. Sometimes it is not about the number but go back to the drawing board and make absolutely sure the seriousness of incidents. We have had only one that we are not compromising safety or our insurance Braer, but that was serious. If Lord Donaldson were policy in the maritime arena. alive today, I wonder what he would say about the proposals. I hope that the Government have approached the co-authors of the Donaldson report to ask them 3.35 pm exactly what they think of the proposals. Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I am delighted to Nearly all this week in the Hebrides, we have had serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hancock, and I force 6 to 7 gales. On Thursday night, we are expecting thank my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth storm 10. A person has to be there to appreciate exactly (Sarah Newton) for securing this debate. I will précis what that involves. In cold, calm London—I refer, of quickly what I was going to say. I pay tribute to the crew course, to the weather—it is difficult to do so; it is of the Lowestoft lifeboat, who received awards last necessary to be in the locality. We need coastguard week for the great bravery that they showed during a stations in the locality. storm in 2009. The weather primarily affects maritime safety, which The coastguard needs to be reviewed. I have five is where I expected the consultation to start. Unfortunately, concerns. The first relates specifically to the East Anglian I discovered through various consultations and briefings coast and the proposed closure of the Yarmouth and from the MCA that the proposals are driven not by Thames maritime centres. I am concerned about increased maritime safety but by real estate considerations, lease activity off the East Anglian coast, including the building deals and hangovers from old industrial disputes within of 1,000 wind turbines, continued dredging, renewed the MCA. The MCA management has desired to do it activity in the oil and gas sector and forthcoming for some time. Safety and risk have been way down the construction work at Sizewell, as well as ship-to-ship pecking order, coming in a distant and shabby last to all transfers, increased shipping movement from Felixstowe the other considerations. I find that absolutely amazing and Yarmouth and more leisure activity on the broads, and appalling. in the estuaries and along the coast. The current system 315WH Coastguard Service2 FEBRUARY 2011 Coastguard Service 316WH

[Peter Aldous] and use recent front-line experience to come up with a set of proposals that, as well as using modern technology, has the advantage of close co-ordination with the helicopter recognise the vast experience and importance of local rescue service at RAF Wattisham and ship service provided knowledge. by Suffolk fire service. I therefore ask the Minister to review closely whether it is appropriate to close both Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): I apologise to hon. stations. Members who have been trying to catch my eye. I would My second point, which has already been made during have liked to give everyone an opportunity to speak, but this debate, is the importance of harnessing and retaining I now call Jim Fitzpatrick. local knowledge. Members have spoken eloquently about it. I could speak about it as well, but the point has been well made. 3.40 pm Thirdly, I would welcome confirmation from the Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Thank Minister that the review is a genuine effort to restructure you, Mr Hancock. It is a pleasure to see you in the and improve the service and that adequate Treasury Chair. The last time I saw you, you were posing with an funding has been secured to implement the proposals. It inflatable elephant, so you are in a much more dignified is vital that reorganisation is properly managed and position now, and I am grateful for the opportunity to resourced and that no effort or expense is spared to take part in this debate. I will try not to speak for a full secure a successful transformation. 10 minutes in order to allow the Minister the opportunity Fourthly, I understand that the Royal National Lifeboat to take a few interventions and respond to the points Institution will make a single representation. I do not that have been made. know what the RNLI’s thoughts are, but I urge the I congratulate the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth Minister to give them full consideration, as the RNLI (Sarah Newton) on securing this important debate, and will play a vital role in implementing any change. all those who have contributed by way of speeches or Finally, I have a slightly unusual request concerning interventions. As has been mentioned, the number of flares, which must be disposed of safely if unused. I am MPs present indicates the importance of this debate. It advised that in East Anglia at present, the nearest is good to see the Minister present. He had an important disposal station is the Thames coastguard. If that is engagement at Transport questions last week, during closed, will East Anglian seafarers have to travel to which I raised the issue under discussion. The Secretary Dover or Humberside? If so, will the Minister consider of State responded to my question, the context of the provision of a closer and more accessible disposal which was the cancellation of Nimrods; the ending of station? the emergency towing vessels’ contract; coastguards being made redundant; the closure of coastguard stations, and air-sea rescue being sold off. All those proposals are 3.38 pm serious and significant. Individually, every one of them Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I congratulate has national significance; collectively, they raise serious the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) concerns about maritime safety. My question last week on securing this debate. I tried to secure it twice myself, was whether the Department acknowledged that. I would so I am glad that somebody was successful. She mentioned be grateful to hear whether the Minister recognises that Sir Alan Massey’s remarks about the time delay. In an concern. I thought that the Secretary of State’s response interview with BBC South West, he confirmed that was slightly ungracious, but that is a matter for him. there would be a time delay. Will the Minister address As the shadow Minister with responsibility for shipping, that apparent anomaly between Sir Alan’s interview I have been lobbied, not least by my hon. Friend the and what the hon. Lady said? Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), on In his letter to me, the Minister said: the question of the Walney coastguard. I have also been contacted by colleagues from the Western Isles, Brixham “You will be aware of the increasing levels of activity taking and elsewhere. I cannot imagine the pressure that the place on the coastline and waters of the UK.” Minister might be under, given that he has to make the Many of the staff at Crosby coastguard station have decision. It is entirely understandable that colleagues highlighted the irony of that statement, given the apparent have today been engaged in special pleading for their reduction in the number of coastguard stations. local coastguard station or geographical area. In the brief time that I have left, I will describe a The MCA’s 2010 annual report reported an increase couple of key issues raised with me. On consultation, in coastal deaths in 2008-09. More people are holidaying staff tell me that the ideas that they have brought up in in the UK—I believe it is called a staycation—and the the past have never been taken on board. They were current economic conditions mean that such activity is concerned that the people who drew up the proposals likely to increase, which, aligned with the possibility of lacked recent front-line experience, and they were very more tourists and visitors coming to Britain, means concerned that Liverpool coastguard station was not that there will be even greater risks. One of the questions included in the original draft consultation document being asked—most recently by my hon. Friend the and that it was earmarked for closure. Belfast would Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen)—is whether the have survived and Liverpool was added only in the final MCA has undertaken a risk assessment of the proposals. version, which tells us a lot about the intention. The The consultation document mentions an equality impact expectation is that Liverpool’s closure is a done deal. assessment, but I would be grateful if the Minister I will now allow the Front-Bench spokesmen to address confirmed whether I am correct in thinking that the the points that have been made. I urge the Minister to impact, or risk, assessment will follow the conclusion of look at the issue again, go back to the drawing board the consultation. 317WH Coastguard Service2 FEBRUARY 2011 Coastguard Service 318WH

Parallels have been drawn between the proposals and In conclusion, shipping is pretty much invisible to the previous Government’s plans for regional fire controls. most people, but it is absolutely critical to the UK, as The Minister and I share a little history: I was in the fire has been articulated by many colleagues this afternoon. service, then he joined the fire service; I got elected to It generally does its job quietly and efficiently, which is Parliament, then he got elected to Parliament; I was the to the huge credit of everybody involved in an industry Minister with responsibility for shipping, then he was that serves us so well. Safety for those involved and for the Minister with responsibility for shipping. the millions of recreational seafarers, citizens and visitors who enjoy our coastline is paramount. The proposals The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport are causing serious concern among that whole community. (Mike Penning): I am—not was—the Minister with As others have said, I am certain that we will return to responsibility for shipping. the issue time and again, with more debates and more questions, in the months ahead. I look forward Jim Fitzpatrick: My apologies. The hon. Gentleman to hearing from the Minister to allow that debate to is the Minister with responsibility for shipping, which is begin. a very good place to be. He is doing a good job and I Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Before I call the know that the shipping industry acknowledges that and Minister, it would be remiss of me not to apologise to respects him for his involvement, even though he has those who did not get an opportunity to speak, and not been in the position for less than a year. I am tempted to to thank those who showed courtesy and played their ask him whether he will make the same mistake as me part in making this a worthwhile debate. I hope that the on fire controls. That contract has been cancelled due to debate’s message is not lost on the Minister or the usual a number of issues. Does he, like several colleagues channels: Members of this House expect and require a present, recognise a parallel between that and the proposals further debate on the issue sometime in the near future under discussion? because, as has been demonstrated, it touches so many It is proposed that staff numbers will fall from 491 to of them. 248. There is an historic question of underpayment of coastguards. Historically, many coastguards were recruited 3.48 pm from former members of the Royal Navy or the merchant The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport navy. They came with pensions and were able to be paid (Mike Penning): Thank you, Mr Hancock. It is a pleasure a little less than the going rate—certainly less than the to serve as the Minister with responsibility for shipping other emergency services. That tradition has, of course, under your chairmanship. Like the shadow Minister, I been outlived. It was one of the issues with which I come from an emergency service background, so I am grappled as a Minister and, I think, managed to solve exceptionally proud of my position. The issue is not with the support of the MCA and Department for devolved, and we should be very proud of the fact that Transport officials, whose service I commend—there there are people throughout this great country of ours are many excellent people in both organisations. We who wish to serve their community. I shall try to touch managed to persuade the Treasury that that issue needed upon as many points as possible in the very short time to be looked at, and I would be interested to hear what available to me. I want to state from the outset how discussions the Minister has had with the Treasury proud I am of the emergency services that serve under about the issue. me, whether they be the coastguard—my volunteers How many of those who lose their jobs does the and my full-time staff—or the other emergency services Department estimate will receive compulsory redundancies? that work with us, namely the RNLI and the hundreds The savings are estimated to be £120 million over 25 years, of volunteers who work in other boats, crews and rescue as the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar services that, while they may not be generally well (Mr MacNeil)—or the Western Isles as the rest of us known, are well known in their communities. like to call it—said. The Lord Donaldson inquiry into It is way above my pay grade to decide whether there the Braer disaster recommended an emergency towing will be a debate on the Floor of the House, but I will vessel for Stornoway. It is suggested that, if that contract speak to my Whips about it. Of course, we have a new is abandoned, it would take 18 hours for a privately wonderful system, under which we can go to the Backbench contracted vessel to arrive. That one incident involving Business Committee. Thursdays are also available for the Braer cost £100 million, which will wipe out 25 years exactly this sort of debate. That hint might be taken up of savings if the Government proceed with their proposals. by some of our colleagues. It will be very difficult to do Does the Minister acknowledge the connection between the debate justice in the short time we have had together. emergency towing vessels and the coastguard proposals? If I do not answer each individual point, my officials Much is made of volunteers and volunteering. We are listening and I will write to colleagues. If hon. have a proud tradition in the UK, as do other countries, Members want a meeting about any specific points, that in that regard. However, as we have seen only today option is available. My officials, including the coastguards with the noble Lord Wei’s decision to cut his hours at who are represented here today and are listening, will be the Cabinet Office from three to two days, volunteers available to hon. Members. can face problems in giving a commitment due to the I thank colleagues who took time yesterday to come pressures on family and business life. to the Back-Bench meeting that we had upstairs. For We all acknowledge the need for deficit reduction some colleagues, it was a busy time in Parliament, but I after the global banking crisis. The real concern is that think those who attended the meeting felt that it was the Department seems to be going too far, too fast and useful to have face-to-face conversations, and not just too deep with these cuts, and the consultation, with with me. It was a cross-party meeting. Interestingly, not which the Minister is encouraging everybody to get as many colleagues attended as are here today, but I can involved, will demonstrate whether that is the case. understand that. We will arrange some further meetings. 319WH Coastguard Service2 FEBRUARY 2011 Coastguard Service 320WH

[Mike Penning] which is the only station in Northern Ireland. That station is paired with Clyde. If Belfast—Bangor station— The consultation is progressing. I stress that, at this goes down, where is all that knowledge and information, point, we have not made a decision. That is why it is a which is mostly stored in people’s heads, not on paper? consultation and I am pursuing people to take part in it. It is lost. If we have a power cut or resilience problems, There is no opportunity for no change at all. All the the station that the hon. Member for North Down union representatives to whom I have spoken around (Lady Hermon) represents is paired with Clyde. After the country accept that. Only the other day, when I was listening to the hon. Lady’s arguments, with the best at a coastguard station, one of the senior officials said will in the world, Clyde does not have that knowledge. after discussions, “Well, we think it should be nine.” Why? Because that knowledge is trapped in Belfast and in Northern Ireland. The same applies to Falmouth, Mr MacNeil: Will the Minister give way? Brixham and the Humber.

Mike Penning: I will make some progress and, if there Andrew George: Will the Minister give way? is time, I will take interventions. However, there have been a lot of interventions during the debate and I Mike Penning: No, I will not. I have listened to the think my hon. Friend—I call him that because I know debate. To be fair, hon. Members asked for a debate and him very well—has done very well at getting in. Colleagues I need to respond to it. As we go around the country, might want to listen to the Minister a bit now. each station is paired with another one. However, there Interestingly enough, I do not know what those nine is not a transfer of knowledge. Falmouth is internationally stations are. I hope—the hon. Member for Sefton Central renowned for its international rescue capabilities. If we (Bill Esterson) was present when it was said in his have a problem in Falmouth, where does that get picked constituency and I met the coastguards there—that up? Nowhere. some proposals are made to us. Proposals in some shape or form, not dissimilar to those we have been Albert Owen: Falmouth. discussing, have been on the table for a considerable time—before I became the Minister; when the shadow Mike Penning: If Falmouth goes down, the relevant Minister had the role. The chief coastguard has been in knowledge does not exist anywhere else. the role for two years. He said to Back Benchers yesterday that the proposal was on the table when he arrived two Mr Sanders: Yes it does. years ago. Mike Penning: It does not. The knowledge is in The debate is about: where, how many, resilience and Falmouth. The international rescue knowledge is based how we take this into the 21st century. As much as there there. I know that everyone will try to defend their own is expertise in, passion for, dedication to and, in some individual situations, but we have to bring that knowledge cases, love for the coastguard service, it is not a 21st century together and use it. service. If we try to say, “It’s okay. We could each individually save our coastguard station,” we are not Dr Wollaston: I take issue with the Minister because I doing the service justice. We have to make progress. know that Brixham coastguard takes over from Falmouth There is a debate about the matter, and when I first in international incidents, when Falmouth is unable to looked at the list, there was certainly a discussion on respond. which stations would close, which would go to part-time working and which would be made into larger hub Mike Penning: The case that we heard earlier, which stations—the national resilience stations. The hon. Member was brilliantly made on behalf of Falmouth, referred to for Sefton Central is absolutely right: Liverpool was the fact that it is the centre of excellence. That is the listed for closure. I apologise, if it is not technically place with all the knowledge, all the information, all the Liverpool, but it is Liverpool on the paper. I said, “No. expertise and skill. It is not duplicated identically across It is a very balanced argument between Belfast and stations. Liverpool.” We will look at that matter. Albert Owen: Will the Minister give way on that Lady Hermon: Will the Minister give way? point?

Mike Penning: No, I will not give way because I did Mike Penning: I gave way previously because I specifically not do so before. I looked again at Scotland, where referred to Falmouth. If we are to go forward, we have there was a similar situation. We looked at the document to be honest with our constituents about what is going and inserted the other stations, so that we could balance on. Let me just touch on some of the points and some the two that I mentioned. of the things I have heard on the airwaves and read in Let me discuss what we are proposing and what we the paper. have got now. I have heard some passionate contributions There will be no reduction in the cover provided to from hon. Members who represent areas from all over rescue people. The service provided by those fantastic the country. What is great about having this post is that almost completely voluntary people who give up their the subject with which I deal is not devolved; it is about time to go out will be enhanced and invested in. That the United Kingdom, complete and in its entirety. It is service will not under any circumstances be touched. about the protection of the fleet, of people on holiday We will invest and go forward. They know that. We and of communities, whether people are visiting the worked with the unions very early on and we talked to community or not. Let us consider what we have today. them all the way through. It is wrong—really wrong—to I shall use one classic example and look at Belfast, use emotive language and say that people would die if 321WH Coastguard Service2 FEBRUARY 2011 Coastguard Service 322WH these changes take place because there is no evidence to mislead the House. I chair the Public and Commercial for that. I listened to the hon. Member for Ynys Môn Services Union group in Parliament. That group represents (Albert Owen) earlier talking about such things. I have 500 members who will be affected. The unions have not been at incidents where people have died. I have gone in supported these proposals and will not accept 220 jobs and done everything possible, like the people in the crew being cut, which they believe will put lives at risk. that was mentioned. We do not know whether that crew would have got there any quicker under a new or Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): That is not a point existing system. What I will do—this has been touched of order, Mr McDonnell, but an issue for debate. There on several times in the past few minutes—is publish the are 30 seconds left. risk assessment next week; not at the end of the consultation, but next week. That will mean that everyone, including hon. Members’ constituents, can look at it. I Mike Penning: This is a very healthy debate. I have have been accused of not publishing it and not acting. It worked with the unions and sat down with them. They will be published next week and it can be part of the know that there needs to be change and they also know consultation as we go forward. that there will be job losses. That was discussed before I became the Minister and since. A trade union dispute Ian Paisley: Will the Minister give way? has gone on that has affected these wonderful volunteers for years. That has to stop. Mike Penning: The hon. Gentleman will have to bear I agree, Mr Hancock, that the matter needs further with me because I have two minutes left. debate. My closing comments are these. The consultation We should not sit back and, on behalf of our constituents, is open. The matter is not actually decided. I will be in say that we think all stations can stay open and that Belfast the week after next. I will be in Scotland. I everything is fine. I know that the previous Government should have been in Stornoway last week, but I could looked at the matter because it was on the table when I not go. I will do my best to go around, and my officials was appointed. My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar will be at the public meetings— and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick)—I call him my hon. Friend because we have been friends for many years—has Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Order. I am sorry been sensible and this has been quite a sensible debate. that I had to cut in on you, Minister. Can Members who What worries me is that, when hon. Members go home, are leaving do so quietly and quickly? We have a Division. they will say to their local papers tonight—I have seen such things in the papers that land on my desk in the morning—that lives are at risk and are going to be lost. 4pm The headlines will be : “Cuts to your service,” “Cuts to Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. the frontline,” “Cuts to this.” That is not going to happen. There will be job losses. Some will be voluntary and some will be compulsory. 4.12 pm John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Some On resuming— 200 jobs are going. Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): I am delighted to Mike Penning: We do not know the numbers. say that we can start in advance of 4.15 as most of the participants in the debate are in the room. It is a unique John McDonnell: On a point of order, Mr Hancock. occasion to have a Liberal Democrat in the Chair, a The Minister has made reference to the unions agreeing Liberal Democrat as the Minister replying and a Liberal with his proposals in some form. I would not wish him Democrat Member opening the debate. It must be a first. 323WH 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Myalgic Encephalomyelitis 324WH

Myalgic Encephalomyelitis I was delighted that two days after this debate was announced, the MRC announced £1.5 million for further research into ME—I am sure that it was just a coincidence. 4.13 pm That important step shows that leading medical researchers Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): I begin by reading what a and the Government are finally admitting that current constituent of mine, Jan Laverick, who suffers from thinking on ME is inadequate. myalgic encephalomyelitis, wrote to describe her condition: The condition affects an estimated 250,000 people in “ME is sudden and extreme muscle weakness to the point of the UK. It is not a disease of the elderly: onset commonly not being able to lift a glass. It is collapsing with exhaustion and occurs during the 20s to 40s in adults, and between not being able to move for hours. It is struggling to sit up long 11 and 14 in children, wrecking the lives of so many enough to eat a meal that has been placed in your lap. It is young people. Studies show that the vast majority of tachycardia, seizures, paralysis and black outs. It is sensitivity to patients never return to their pre-illness level of functioning, light, sound and touch. It is extreme abdominal bloating, nausea, and relapses can occur several years after remission. loss of appetite, excruciating stomach cramps…It is daily fevers ME is an extremely complex disease for which there is and sweats. It is inflammation and horrendous joint, nerve and muscle pain. Imagine suffering from these symptoms only to find no scientifically proven cause or cure. The main symptom there is little research into the cause or cure, that you might not be is severe fatigue following almost any mental or physical taken seriously by your GP or the benefits system. Yourcondition activity which does not go away with sleep or rest. That might even have been dismissed as ‘yuppie flu’.” often leads to its being defined under the term “chronic I welcome the fact that the Department of Health fatigue syndrome”. However, an important step in changing now accepts ME as a genuine medical condition. However, the misleading perceptions of ME is to recognise that it is clear from speaking to sufferers and medical CFS is a loose umbrella classification covering a wide professionals that diagnosis can still pose a problem range of illnesses of which fatigue is a prominent symptom, because ME symptoms are similar to those present in and that those illnesses may be neurological, malignant, several other medical conditions. I recognise that one of infective, toxic, genetic or psychiatric in nature. Fatigue the main obstacles to the adequate treatment of ME is is a loosely defined symptom which can occur to some the lack of knowledge and consensus about the disease, degree in a wide range of conditions. and I will argue that funding and research must be Using that umbrella term has further compounded focused on the biomedical factors involved, and not the already significant obstacles to the diagnosis and simply on managing the psychological symptoms. treatment of ME, which is now identified on the basis of at least nine different definitions. A major problem James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): I congratulate lies in the fact that different types of illness are also my hon. Friend on securing this important debate on a contained under the CFS umbrella. That makes sound subject that I know is close to his heart. It has been scientific research difficult to conduct, as different illnesses raised with me, as it has with him, by a number of have different biomarkers. A research group that consists constituents who are concerned about it. I echo his of people with completely different physical and comments and point out that, at present, no funding psychological causes of their fatigue or tiredness can is available for biomedical research into the causation have only limited use, and certainly cannot lead to the of ME. Does he agree—I believe he just said that he development of any sound findings on the causes of ME. does—that this is an area we want the Government ME, on the other hand, has a clear definition. The term to look at again, and that we should encourage them to “myalgic” means muscle pain, while “encephalomyelitis” take seriously? means inflammation of the brain and spinal cord and represents a clearly defined disease process which has Ian Swales: I thank the hon. Gentleman; indeed, that been included in the World Health Organisation’s is right. I am not sure whether no funding is available, “International Classification of Diseases” since 1969. but it certainly is the minority of funding, and that That poses the obvious question of why research has seriously needs addressing. been mainly focused on psychological symptoms, when the very definition of the disease refers to a physiological My goal is to see the Government-funded Medical condition. “Fatigue” is also a clumsy way of describing Research Council work with ME sufferers and biomedical a complex range of extremely debilitating symptoms. It researchers to achieve a proper understanding of the is not the kind of fatigue that non-sufferers would condition’s challenges and to change the unjust perceptions recognise. ME, as we heard from my constituent, can of it. involve sudden and extreme muscle weakness to the point of not being able to lift a glass. What recognition Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): is there in the Department that ME is distinct and I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. different from the much broader term CFS? Equally, in It is almost a year since I had a similar debate, but I am the light of the recent MRC funding announcement, I not sure that we have moved on since then. Recently, the urge the Minister to encourage the Department to focus MRC announced £1.5 million for research, but does he its research, as treating ME/CFS as a single homogeneous agree that there appears not to be an overall strategy to condition will only encounter the problems I have just deal with research into ME, and that there still seems outlined. to be concentration on the symptoms and not enough That blurring can also lead to a uniform approach to attention given to the causes? treatment, which is unreasonable and even dangerous. An indiscriminate, blanket approach to treatment was Ian Swales: I thank my hon. Friend. Yes, the lack of a advised by the National Institute for Health and Clinical strategy focused on the latest information is one of the Excellence in 2007, no matter what the disease process, problems. infectious agent or psychological condition. Again, the 325WH Myalgic Encephalomyelitis2 FEBRUARY 2011 Myalgic Encephalomyelitis 326WH symptom of fatigue gets flagged up and treated in the and ME is treated like the vast majority of other same way in nearly all cases. That can be ineffective for conditions. Due to the lack of overt clinical findings, many, and positively dangerous for others. That lack of much of the assessment rests on anecdotal evidence and recognition of ME specifically happens at every level; whether the person’s description of their disability is yet I believe it essential that GPs have the ability to spot consistent with their daily activities. However, despite ME early and to prescribe appropriate, tailored advice. the guidance on conducting these interviews, an ME I would like the Government to recognise the many sufferer will only be able to attend such a session on a differences between and subtleties of ME and CFS, and good day. It is therefore impossible to judge accurately urge the Minister to do the same, as the current treatment the severity of the condition at the assessment interview. guidelines are completely unacceptable. I would argue that a more flexible approach to ME is I decided to call for this debate because the issue has needed. The effects of the condition can wax and wane been under-researched. The lack of understanding and unpredictably, meaning that often, a person’s DLA is stigma surrounding ME have meant that sufferers have withdrawn because of a short-term respite of the symptoms. had to live with the condition without recourse to the There needs to be more consultation with and input treatments and research they deserve. I initially tabled from GPs and other medical professionals who are in early-day motion 778 to gauge support, and I am delighted contact with the individual over a prolonged period. to report that, as of yesterday, 100 colleagues from all Obviously, I understand that this issue is not directly parties have put their names to it. That shows the strong the Minister’s responsibility. However, I strongly urge feeling in Parliament that significant changes need to be him to make representations, and to make this case, to made. There has been a distinct lack of funding into the Department for Work and Pensions. ME research in the past decade. Between 2000 and I thank hon. Members and the Minister for listening. 2003, not a single penny was spent by the MRC on To end the plight of ME sufferers, appropriate and researching the condition. Things did improve, peaking correctly targeted biomedical research into the causes with just over £1.3 million allocated in 2007-08, but that of the disease must be funded. GPs must be properly dropped to just £109,000 in 2009-10. apprised of the specifics of ME; sufferers’ disability I welcome the recent funding announcement. However, must be recognised in the benefits system, with the more than 80% of the MRC’s expenditure on ME support of GPs; ME and CFS must be properly classified; research so far has been allocated to psycho-social and fatigue must no longer be used as a catch-all therapies, instead of biomedical studies to prove the symptom. The current situation, which has endured for existence of a physical cause. That research has continued decades, cannot be allowed to continue. As things stand, to pursue a well-trodden path and ignored a vast landscape 250,000 men, women and children, their families and of other, potentially more rewarding areas. I am concerned carers, face terrible injustice and neglect. I call on the to see whether the new MRC funding will focus on that Government to put that right. biomedical work. Not only has there been a palpable lack of funding for research; a past study commissioned 4.26 pm by the Department of Health found that the quality of research was poor. For a long-term condition that affects The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul 250,000 people in this country, with no known cause or Burstow): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, cure and huge costs to the NHS, the amount of research Mr Hancock, with the coincidence of speaker and funding dedicated to it, even with the recent announcement, respondent in the debate. is pitiful. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) on securing the debate, and thank him and Misinformation, widespread confusion and ignorance other hon. Members for their contributions. This is not about ME and CFS have resulted in people with entirely the first time the House has debated these issues. My different illnesses receiving the same diagnosis. A London hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North sufferer, David Eden, drew my attention to some interesting Poole (Annette Brooke) raised them—as have others, research that has been taking place in the United States. including me—when in opposition. My local ME support Recent studies by the Whittemore Peterson Institute, group has been encouraging, and what it has taught me the National Cancer Institute and the Cleveland Clinic has been an invaluable part of how an MP gets an have linked ME with the presence of a newly discovered insight into a condition they might not personally suffer. retrovirus. Blood from 68 of 101 ME patients was found to contain a human gammaretrovirus, xenotropic I realise that this is a difficult and controversial murine leukaemia virus—XMRV—while only eight of subject, and I can understand why feelings run high. 218 healthy patients were found to have the same retrovirus. I appreciate the difficult and desperate struggles that While that result grabbed headlines, most subsequent people often face to achieve clinical recognition and studies have been less clear, although one other study relief from the condition, and a sense of hope that there did support the original findings. It remains uncertain is a direction of travel toward understanding the underlying as to whether XMRV is linked to ME and is involved in causes, and eventually getting a cure. causation. I would like to encourage the Minister, therefore, I will ensure that the comments of my hon. Friend to explore other areas of research, such as retroviruses, the Member for Redcar about benefits are passed on to in order to ascertain once and for all whether they play ministerial colleagues at the Department for Work and a part in ME. To judge by the contact I have had with Pensions. Although he made some important points in sufferers, there is constant frustration that the Government that regard, I will not address them as they are above are failing to fund research into key areas. my pay grade—or certainly outside it. Another, more practical consideration is the recognition The basic challenge is that we do not know with any of ME by the benefits system. Currently, disability confidence what causes the distressing symptoms—indeed, living allowance is assessed by severity of condition, the condition itself—that my hon. Friend so clearly 327WH Myalgic Encephalomyelitis2 FEBRUARY 2011 Myalgic Encephalomyelitis 328WH

[Paul Burstow] “We will the end but we are not clear about the means when it comes to research,” and it is not a case of described. That is why he is right, as is the hon. Member allocating a research pot to a specific disease type. for Stockton South (James Wharton), to highlight the Down that road lies poor research, not discovery and need for research. On my hon. Friend’s point about real change. defining the condition, until we have a strong clinical We are protecting health research budgets overall. evidence base, we have to keep an open mind about That decision was taken from the centre and made by whether this is one condition or a number of conditions the Chancellor in the spending review. However, decisions with similar symptoms but different causes. The Department about how money is allocated remain—rightly—with does follow, and will continue to follow for the time the Medical Research Council and other funding bodies, being, the World Health Organisation convention in not with a Minister behind a desk in Whitehall. That how we describe and refer to the condition—that is, to must be the case with other funding bodies. call it CFS/ME. That is the WHO definition; it is not a The MRC has nominated CFS/ME as a strategic specific term that the Department of Health has alighted priority area for several years. Indeed, it has set up an on and no one else uses. It is important that that be expert group to focus specifically on the condition in a understood. way that did not happen previously. The group comprises On present understanding, that definition best captures leading academics from across the country, as well as the spectrum of symptoms and effects that characterise representatives from several organisations that have direct the illness. As yet, there is no cure nor any consistently experience and interest in the condition. They are working effective treatment for the condition. As my hon. Friend together to improve the capacity and opportunities for rightly said, we do not even have a standard diagnostic research in the area. test to confirm the condition. Diagnosis is possible only My hon. Friend has acknowledged as good news the through excluding other illnesses with similar symptoms. fact that the MRC is making up to £1.5 million available There is, however, strong international consensus that to support research into the causes of CFS/ME, which CFS/ME is a chronic and disabling neurological illness. is welcome. Decisions on funding will continue to be I want to stress that it is a neurological illness; it is not a made purely on the quality of research funding received. mental health problem. I know that that suggestion Critically, as in any area where we need more research, causes great concern—and, arguably, offence—for that sends a clear signal that the money is there and that many sufferers who have campaigned vociferously against there is a willingness to commit funds to research. The it. The strength of many people’s reaction to that gauntlet has been thrown down to the research community label says a lot about the stigma that is still attached to to rise to the challenge and ensure that there are enough mental illness, and about the attitudes of health bids of sufficient quality to draw in that funding. professionals towards it. We seek to tackle those two The funding call will focus on six priority areas problems in the mental health strategy that the Government identified by the expert group— autonomic dysfunction, have published today. cognitive symptoms, fatigue, immune problems, pain Although CFS/ME has no psychological foundation, management and sleep disorders. I will ensure that the that does not mean that we cannot gain lessons and MRC and other research bodies look at this debate and insights from cognitive behavioural therapy, and that see the additional points that have been made about where appropriate, it should not be used as part of a biomedical research, so that that can be taken into treatment plan, just as it is for many other long-term account by the expert groups. health conditions. The NICE guidelines, to which my The call will also seek to build up research capacity, hon. Friend has referred, include counselling and graded because one of the challenges has been attracting more exercise as possible treatment options. Let me emphasise researchers into the field. The expert group can only the words “possible” and “guidelines.” Neither of those achieve so much on its own and, if I may be blunt, there things is mandated, but they could form part of a has been a history of fractiousness and fragmentation conversation between the clinician and an individual between different groups with an interest in the area. about the appropriate, personalised approach to their Often, it is easy to agree on what we do not like, but situation. harder to agree on the common ground and what the The guidelines seek to help a person to manage their course of action should be to change things. I understand symptoms as much as possible. In lieu of any clinical the heightened emotions that are often articulated by cure, that is about social recovery and helping people to constituents who suffer from the condition, and I have manage their symptoms, be clear about their goals and spoken about that to people in my surgery. However, we define their own recovery, rather than simply prescribing will not achieve anything if organisations do not work a clinical treatment. We know that the treatment in the together and engage with one another to find common guidelines helps some patients but, as my hon. Friend ground and build alliances. has said, for many people it does not help at all, and All patient groups need to look outwards and be some people find it offensive. The obvious point—I will positive about how they can work with the NHS, the return to this in a moment—is that a doctor needs to Department, medical researchers and each other to work with the patient to find the most appropriate way influence change. One big challenge is to get more forward. That is why personalisation is at the heart of researchers interested in that area of work, but we are our general approach to long-term conditions, which is sometimes in danger of shooting ourselves in the foot critical in this debate. by failing to show a united front. With no cure, research is naturally a source of hope Everyone with a stake in this area has an interest in for those with the condition, and my hon. Friend has ensuring that a constructive and supportive environment made a powerful and compelling case for further investment. exists for research—that is key. Division and discord However, it is not as simple as the Government saying, will not accelerate the pace of change, and I hope 329WH Myalgic Encephalomyelitis2 FEBRUARY 2011 Myalgic Encephalomyelitis 330WH that the reconstituted all-party group on Myalgic my own constituency that excellent work is done in Encephalomyelitis will play its part in facing that challenge specialist CFS/ME clinics to integrate care for patients. and driving us forward. Nevertheless, there is patchiness around the country My hon. Friend has mentioned the XMRVretrovirus, that compromises the quality of treatment and reduces and I want to underline his point. It is an area in which the options available. That is why we must improve research is not conclusive and where further research is commissioning, and GP consortia can help us involve being pursued to establish whether there is a link. At patients much more in how local services are shaped. this time, however, there is no robust evidence to suggest I stress that the future of the NHS is local, not such a link. Research can provide hope for the future, national. It is about local NHS and local GP consortia but we need to do more now to improve care for people working with local patients’ groups and making decisions with the condition. based on a clear understanding of their needs and local The NHS does not always get it right for people with needs. To commission effectively, GPs must understand long-term conditions in general, let alone those with the needs of patients with long-term conditions. CFS/ME. The problems faced by people with CFS/ME I hope that the Neurological Alliance can play an are consistent with those caused by other conditions. important role in that. Nationally and regionally, it has Care is fragmented rather than integrated, and people support networks that can make a huge difference by struggle to be referred to a specialist in a timely and levering change in the commissioning of neurological appropriate way. Most importantly, there is a sense that services. I urge groups with an interest in CFS/ME to health professionals see the condition, rather than the engage with the Neurological Alliance, use it, work person in front of them. Although this debate is about through it and form connections with it, as a way of how we describe CFS/ME, it taps into some basic ideas. shaping and changing services in the future. All too often, the label ends up mattering more than the In conclusion, there are real opportunities ahead, person. Health professionals decide how people are and a real chance to address some of the frustrations treated and to which services they should be referred, and misery experienced by people with this condition. but that should not be the most important determinate. My message, and that of the Department of Health, is We want the patient and doctor to work in partnership that there is an open invitation for representative groups in the consulting room, meeting as two experts—one on to get involved in shaping the future of the NHS. We the person, and one on the appropriate ways to support want the Neurological Alliance to be a key source of and treat them. advice and support for GP consortia and health and The greater use of personalisation and care planning well-being boards at local level. I am sure that the new can play a part, and that must be an explicit part of the NHS commissioning board will be keen to build links Government’s plans for the NHS. However, it goes with the alliance in forming national policy. deeper than that, because it is really about patients The urgency exists, and the additional commitment being given the power of self-determination. The idea to drive long-term conditions to the top of the agenda is of, “No decision about me, without me,” should be a one of the Government’s ambitions. I thank my hon. governing principle of the NHS. People should be asked Friend for raising these issues, and we will continue to to set their own personal goals and work together with work together to make sure that we improve the lot of professionals to achieve them. Everybody is different, his constituents and those of other hon. Members. and we must ensure that the care they receive reflects that. My hon. Friend did not mention commissioning, but Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Thank you, it is important to touch on that issue. To achieve these Mr Burstow. I ask those hon. Members who are not changes and get the right services and specialists, we involved in the next debate to leave the Chamber quietly must make sure that support is available. I know from and speedily. 331WH 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Police Funding (Devon and 332WH Cornwall) Police Funding (Devon and Cornwall) the Liberal Democrat group in the Association of Police Authorities, said that Devon and Cornwall had been the “big loser” in the funding round. 4.40 pm At a time when our police services are facing the most Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): I begin the debate savage cuts in their history, why are the Government by warmly praising the work of Devon and Cornwall embarking on a costly and dangerous restructuring of police. Those of us who are fortunate enough to live in the police that no one wants? The Government’s proposals Devon and Cornwall live in the fourth safest place in for elected police commissioners are madness, and the England. My experience as the MP for Exeter means last thing we need against the current financial backdrop. that I know at first hand of the tireless work that my local police and community support officers and, indeed, Mike Bull, the chairman of Devon and Cornwall civilian staff do in tackling and deterring crime, bringing police authority, which, let us not forget, is dominated down antisocial behaviour and making the people of by Conservative and Liberal Democrat councillors, is Exeter feel safer on the streets. withering in his assessment of the Government’s proposals. He says that they are a “shocking waste of money” that Crime in Devon and Cornwall fell by a whopping will bring “party politics into policing”. He goes on to 11% last year alone. That fall was unprecedented in warn that a low turnout in the proposed election for a times of economic recession, and it followed year-on-year police commissioner could lead to extremists such as falls in crime throughout the period of the Labour the British National party taking control of the police. Government—a period during which crime fell by 43% Writing last month in our regional newspaper, the Western nationally and by even more in Devon and Cornwall. Morning News, Mr Bull asks: I pay tribute to the men and women of Devon and Cornwall police and to their excellent chief constable, “How…can one person be in touch with and understand the Stephen Otter, for such a fantastic record. different communities across Devon, Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly?” However, I fear that that record is about to be undone. It is inconceivable that the level of cuts being forced on The cost of the election for the police commissioner Devon and Cornwall police by the present Government’s will be nearly £2 million, not including the commissioner’s reckless economic policies will not make it harder for proposed salary of £120,000. That is the equivalent of our police to fight and deter crime. Before and after the employing 50 police constables every year, and far more election, we were assured by the Prime Minister and than the cost of the current police authority. others that the cuts would not affect front-line policing. I therefore have a number of questions that I would We now know those claims not to have been true. That be grateful if the Minister responded to. Why did he is coming not from me or from Labour’s shadow Home and the Home Secretary get such a poor deal from the Secretary, but from Devon and Cornwall police themselves. Chancellor of the Exchequer in the comprehensive spending They now have to cut £47 million, or 25%, from their review? Does he accept that the level of cuts imposed on budget during the spending review period. Seven hundred Devon and Cornwall will mean—contrary to assurances police officer posts are to go—that is a massive one in given by the Prime Minister—that front-line policing is five officers from the current 3,500. hit? On what basis has he scrapped the rural policing The chief constable, an accomplished diplomat who grant? Will he accept that that will hit Devon and chooses his words very carefully, said that he was Cornwall particularly badly? Why are the Government “disappointed”, adding that the settlement was forcing us to have elected police commissioners? Will “even worse than we had anticipated it would be.” the Minister not accept that they are a waste of money and risk politicising our police? Can he name a single Sergeant Nigel Rabbitts, chairman of the Devon and Conservative or Liberal Democrat member of Devon Cornwall police federation, which represents rank-and-file and Cornwall police authority who thinks they are a officers, says that some west country communities will good idea? Where are the west country Conservative never see a police officer in future. Even in those areas and Lib Dem MPs queuing up to intervene in this that will continue to see a police presence, the provision debate in support of the Government’s proposals? Will that was promised and ensured under the previous the Minister rethink these disastrous plans before he Labour Government of a dedicated police officer and does even more damage to our police? community support officer will be unsustainable, according to an internal document published by Devon and Cornwall I would be grateful if we did not get the usual excuses police about how they will cope with the cuts. that we get from Ministers about having no choice in To add insult to injury, the Government have also how they cut the deficit. Of course the deficit needs to scrapped the extra funding that Labour made available be cut, and there are economies to be made in the police to Devon and Cornwall in recognition of the challenges as there are in all our public services, but the present and extra costs involved in policing a large rural region. Government have taken the deliberate decision to eradicate It is deeply ironic that Conservative and Liberal Democrat the deficit in a single Parliament. The consequences of politicians who used to moan about the Labour such recklessness are clear from last week’s terrible Government ignoring rural areas—often flying in the growth figures—or rather, economic contraction figures— face of the evidence—are now taking away Labour’s which saw Britain’s economy go into reverse in the last rural policing grant. Devon and Cornwall’s chief constable quarter of last year. Let us contrast that with Barack has made it clear that that will have a further Obama in America. He is following the course that we disproportionate impact on Devon and Cornwall. Sergeant in the Labour party advocate, resulting in growth of Rabbitts said that the force had been—I do not know 3.5% in the same period. whether this is unparliamentary language—“shafted” The Government’s wrong-headed approach to the by the Minister’s Department. Brian Greenslade, the economy is not only wrecking the recovery, as we warned former leader of Devon Liberal Democrats and head of it would, but doing untold damage to our vital public 333WH Police Funding (Devon and 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Police Funding (Devon and 334WH Cornwall) Cornwall) services, such as Devon and Cornwall police, completely discretion to chief officers about how they can spend unnecessarily, and risks reversing the huge improvements the money, but it is not true to say that we scrapped that we have seen in recent years. extra funding simply because the grant has gone. The rural policing fund has been consolidated into the rule 2 grant, which has been the case since 2006-07. 4.47 pm The decision behind rolling the rule 2 grant, the crime TheMinisterforPolicingandCriminalJustice(NickHerbert): fighting fund and the basic command unit fund into the I regret to say that I disagreed with almost every word main police grant from 2011-12 is, as I have argued, to that the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) give more freedom. The right hon. Gentleman should said. Normally it is possible in these debates to agree be aware that no force will lose funding as a result of about a great deal—about the value of the local force rolling that grant into the main grant over the next two and so on—and I certainly agree with him in his assessment years. of the chief constable, but many of the points that he made were party political and he has not addressed Mr Bradshaw: Is the Minister saying that the chief what I accept are the considerable challenges that confront constable of Devon and Cornwall is wrong on that policing generally and his local force in a way that is point? sensible or helpful to the debate. First, we have to deal with the deficit, but the right Nick Herbert: I am not sure, because I do not know hon. Gentleman appears to be in denial about that. He exactly what he was quoting the chief constable as should know that the shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer, saying. However, I assure the right hon. Gentleman, when he was briefly shadow Home Secretary, accepted and if necessary the chief constable, that the nominal that the police would have to be cut. He said that he loss of the rural policing fund will not mean that forces agreed with the independent inspectorate of constabulary will lose funding in the next two years. It is simply that that the police could make savings of some £1 billion a the grants have been rolled into one. The right hon. year. The previous shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Gentleman has said that we have scrapped extra funding, Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan and he has implied that we somehow do not care about Johnson), when he was Home Secretary, refused, at the rural areas, but I challenge him on that. time of the general election, to guarantee police numbers. The Opposition have admitted that they would have I meet chief constables regularly, and I have spoken made significant cuts in policing. We also know that to the chief constable of Devon and Cornwall. I recognise they had £40 billion-worth of cuts, but they had not the significant challenge that he faces, and I realise that said how they would make them. he has to make considerable savings. There will be a loss of police officers, which will not be easy for him, the There is no disagreement about the fact that, in the force and the staff who will have to go. However, I am current circumstances, the police would have to make impressed with his commitment to do everything that savings, because there would be cuts to their budgets he can do drive savings in areas that will ensure that under Governments of either party. We might disagree service to the public is not reduced. Indeed, his declared about the scale of the cuts, but for the right hon. ambition is to improve the service that the public receive Gentleman to pretend to his local force that it will not and to improve the visibility of local officers, despite have to make savings is wrong. the savings that he has to make. That can be done by I simply do not accept—I shall return to this—that more effective deployment, by changing shift patterns because forces have to make savings as part of their and by improving productivity on the front line. He tells contribution to dealing with the deficit, it will necessarily me that his ambition is for the number of police officers impact on the efficiency and effectiveness of the service engaged in local policing to go up slightly.Chief constables, that they provide to the public. The right hon. Gentleman including in Devon and Cornwall, are rising to the did not make the case that there would be a detrimental challenge of reduced funding, recognise the situation effect on the public; he simply asserted it and quoted that forces are in and are finding savings, in accordance one sergeant. That is not a responsible suggestion. All with the view of the independent inspectorate of parties agree that forces will have to make savings. We constabulary that those savings are available. need to debate how the forces can make savings, and where the priorities should lie. The right hon. Gentleman has said that the Home Secretary reached a poor deal with the Chancellor, but I Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman said that we have disagree. The reduction in grant is lower than was scrapped extra funding for Devon and Cornwall police. indicated by the Chancellor at the time of the emergency I understood him to mean that we have scrapped the Budget. It is a 20% loss of overall grant in real terms rural policing fund. over four years, but that does not take account of the fact that the force meets about a third of its funding Mr Bradshaw indicated assent. from local council tax payers through the precept. When that is taken into account, the loss in grant faced by the Nick Herbert: The right hon. Gentleman did not note force is not 20% in real terms over four years. I accept that we have maintained the neighbourhood policing that it is a significant sum, but the savings can be made. fund, which will enable the continued funding of police I do not agree—in fact, I strongly disagree—with community support officers for the next two years. It what the right hon. Gentleman said about police and will then be for the locally elected police and crime crime commissioners. It was the previous Government’s commissioners to decide how to deploy those funds—I policy to introduce direct accountability into police shall return to that later. The general direction of travel authorities, and they proposed two sets of policies is to roll all those grants into one, so as to give greater before abandoning them. He should know that is now 335WH Police Funding (Devon and 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Police Funding (Devon and 336WH Cornwall) Cornwall) [Nick Herbert] Nick Herbert: I was just making the point that I do not expect members of police authorities to be first in Opposition policy to have directly elected police chairs line in supporting a policy when their own positions are of police authorities, but the cost of holding those to be abolished. Their stance is hardly surprising. The direct elections once every four years would be exactly general direction of travel towards democratic reform the same as the cost of electing police and crime and having a greater democratic say in policing has commissioners. His argument that the policy is unacceptable been very popular in London, and it will be in the rest on cost grounds goes out of the window. That is now of the country. Opposition policy, which would cost more. I also reject the argument that the policy will somehow I want to make it clear that we are determined that allow extremists to be elected. We know that the British police and crime commissioners will cost no more to National party polled a very low share of the vote run than police authorities, because there is no reason nationally at the general election—I think that it was why they should do so. However, there will be a cost to less than 2% of the national vote. It polled 15% in its holding elections for these new posts once every four best performance in a parliamentary constituency, which years. It will cost £50 million once every four years, but was in Barking where Nick Griffin stood. Given the size that money has been found by the Chancellor and of the constituencies that we are talking about in relation allocated to the Home Office. The money will not come to directly elected police and crime commissioners and out of individual force budgets, because it was separately the electoral system, it is almost inconceivable that such negotiated by the Home Secretary and provided separately people will be elected. In fact, that argument is a complete by the Chancellor. It is not true to say that money has red herring. The people must decide whom they wish to been wasted on this policy. In any case, it is a bad represent them, and it is right to give the people a say. argument against the introduction of democracy in any In conclusion, I am always willing to talk about the form to object to it on the ground of cost. challenges confronting Devon and Cornwall police. I am How many referendums did the Labour party propose absolutely committed to helping the force deliver efficient in its manifesto? Did the party advance arguments of and effective policing and to ensuring that the officers cost when it proposed referendums left, right and centre will be there for the public who value and need them. I in its manifesto? No, it did not. Does the Labour party appreciate that the force, like other forces around the advance the argument that we should not hold a referendum country, faces a considerable challenge. We have treated on AV in May on the ground that the referendum will all forces equally, with each having to make an equal cost money? No, I do not think so. The cost will be share of the cut. Chief constables know what the challenge minimal—it is a tiny fraction of the overall policing is, and it is essential that they continue to drive savings budget—and it will be incurred only once every four in the back office, as the inspectorate says that they can, years. and drive savings in the middle office— The benefit will be far greater accountability, because Mr Bradshaw: The Minister has referred to the an elected individual will represent people in the force inspectorate’s report three times now. Will he confirm area and hold the police to account. That will help to that the report that he is talking about from the inspectorate drive more efficient and efficient policing that is responsive of constabulary stated that a “redesign” of the police to the local community. It is not surprising that members system could of police authorities are opposed to this policy, because “at best...save 12% of central government funding”? the authorities will be abolished. I hardly expect their members to say that they would like to go, and many of That is nowhere near the cuts that his Government are them are campaigning to keep their positions. now imposing, which is an important distinction. A single elected individual will represent the whole of Nick Herbert: I will send the right hon. Gentleman a Devon and Cornwall, holding the police force there to copy of the speech that I gave to the City Forum last account just as the chairman of the police authority week. I set out how the savings that the inspectorate covers the whole area now. Every local authority will be identified—they amount to more than £1 billion a year, represented on the police and crime panel, including which is, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, equivalent district councils, and they have not been represented to 12% of central Government funding—can be delivered. before in the governance of policing. Local areas will There were also other things that the inspectorate did continue to have a say. not take into account. For instance, there are the savings that will be realised from the two-year pay freeze. Those Mr Bradshaw: I do not think that Conservative members savings will amount to some £350 million. Some of Devon and Cornwall police authority will take kindly £380 million of savings are expected to be realised from to the Minister’s suggestion that they oppose the idea procuring IT and other equipment together. Those were only because they are worried about their own jobs. not taken into account in the inspectorate’s report. These are honourable people who have entered public There are also a number of other ways in which we service and who care about the quality of the police can make savings. If police forces work together and authority. The chairman of the authority, Mike Bull, is redesign their businesses, we are confident that we can non-political and independent. He has no interest in drive real savings in such a way that will improve the defending the police authority, because his term of effectiveness and efficiency of policing and not affect office will come to an end. Those are not my words—they the service that the public expect—front-line policing, are what he said about the costs and drawbacks of the officers in neighbourhoods and on the streets, satisfactory Minister’s proposals. If the Minister’s proposals are so response times and the investigation that is needed if good and so popular, why is it that no member of his crimes are committed. We believe that the service can be party in Devon and Cornwall supports them? improved even as it becomes leaner. 337WH Police Funding (Devon and 2 FEBRUARY 2011 Police Funding (Devon and 338WH Cornwall) Cornwall) I do not underestimate the challenge that faces the they can do so, and we will do everything possible to whole force, but we are in this position because, to support them and to continue to protect policing, including quote the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury in the in Devon and Cornwall. I am absolutely committed to previous Government, “There is no money.” This doing everything I can to secure that and to working Government were left with the biggest fiscal deficit in with the chief constable. our peacetime history. It is our responsibility to deal Question put and agreed to with it and it is in the long-term interests of all our public services that we deal with it. We must ask the 5.4 pm police to make a share of the savings. We know that Sitting adjourned.

45WS Written Ministerial Statements2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 46WS

agree and use a new national measure of well-being; Written Ministerial ensure that mental health remains high on the Government’s agenda by asking the Cabinet Sub-Committee on Public Health to oversee the strategy at national level; and Statements challenge stigma by supporting and working actively with the “Time to Change” programme. Wednesday 2 February 2011 “No health without mental health: A Cross-Government mental health outcomes strategy for people of all ages” has been placed in the Library. Copies are available to HEALTH hon. Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. “A Cross-Government Mental Health Outcomes Strategy for People of All Ages” HOME DEPARTMENT

Tackling Knife, Gun and Gang Crime The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): The Government are today publishing “No health without mental health: A Cross-Government mental health The Secretary of State for the Home Department outcomes strategy for people of all ages” for England. (Mrs Theresa May): The Government are today announcing At least one in four of us will experience a mental a total of over £18 million of ring-fenced funding over health problem at some point in our life, and around two years for police, local agencies and the voluntary half of people with lifetime mental health problems sector to tackle teenage knife, gun and gang violence experience their first symptoms before the age of 14. and prevent young people from entering a cycle of The society-wide costs of mental health problems have crime. An independent report by Brooke Kinsella, “Tackling recently been estimated at £105 billion, and the costs Knife Crime Together—a Review of Anti-Knife Crime of treatment alone are expected to double in the next Projects,” is also being published. 20 years. The two-year Home Office funding will support We knew that change is needed and there are two enforcement work by police in three police force areas, powerful themes to our new approach. The Government alongside positive activities for young people across must deliver a co-ordinated cross-Government focus, England and Wales, and local work to bring about which genuinely supports local action. Equally, local long-term changes in attitudes and behaviours. The strategies and more equal patients’ voices enable more money, to be distributed in 2011-12 and 2012-13, includes decisions about mental health to be taken locally based up to: on evidence of effective practice and delivering the best £10 million for prevention and diversionary activities and value for our society. engagement with young people at risk of becoming involved Our approach is based on the principles that Government in crime, including knife-related violence; have laid down for all their health reforms: £4 million for local voluntary organisations across England and Wales working specifically with young people most at patients would be more involved in decisions about their risk of involvement in knife and gang violence; treatment and care so that it is right for them—there will be “no decision about me without me”; £3.75 million for the three police forces areas where more than half of the country’s knife crime occurs—London, the NHS would be more focused on results that are meaningful Greater Manchester and the West Midlands; to patients by measuring outcomes such as how successful their treatment was and their quality of life, not just processes £1 million to support the development of anti-knife, gun and like waiting list targets; gang crime materials for schools and a good practice website to enable local projects to share knowledge and expertise; clinicians would lead the way—GP-led groups will commission and services based on what they consider their local patients need, not on what managers feel the NHS can provide; £250,000 for one further year of the Ben Kinsella fund for young people to run anti-knife crime projects in their local there will be real democratic legitimacy, with local councils area. and clinicians coming together to shape local services; and they will allow the best people to deliver the best care for Police and Crime Commissioners will be introduced patients—with those on the front line in control, not Ministers in May 2012 and this funding will run from April 2011 or bureaucrats. to March 2013. It is clear that the coalition Government’s success will The Brooke Kinsella report makes a number of be measured by the nation’s well-being, not just by the recommendations including anti-knife crime work with state of the economy. We know the conditions that school children, more information sharing between police, foster well-being and, in recent years, much more about schools and other agencies on local issues, a best practice the interconnections between mental health, housing website for local organisations and more work with employment and safe communities. This strategy builds young children to stop them getting involved in knife on that knowledge and the Government are investing crime. around £400 million on psychological therapies to support Over 2011-12 and 2012-13 the Home Office will also people who need them across England. In all, this provide up to £20 million towards Department for strategy captures this Government’s ambitious aim to Education’s early intervention grant which local areas mainstream mental health in England and our can use for youth crime prevention, and up to £18 million commitments include: for youth offending teams (via the Ministry of Justice) making mental health a key priority for Public Health to deliver front-line work, including knife crime prevention England, the new national public health service; programmes, for young offenders.

783W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 784W

Regulations 2007 (S.I. 2007/2504) and the Private Security Written Answers to Industry Act 2001 (Exemption) (Aviation Security) Regulations 2006 (Amendment) Regulations 2009 (S.I. 2009/2964) were revoked by the Private Security Industry Act 2001 (Exemption) Questions (Aviation Security) Regulations 2010 (S.I. 2010/3018) on 14 January 2011. The Identity Cards Act 2006 (Information and Code of Practice Wednesday 2 February 2011 on Penalties) Order 2009 (S.I. 2009/2570) was revoked by the Identity Documents Act 2010 with effect from 21 January 2011. HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Driving Offences Electric Vehicles Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many motorists attended safer Mr Spellar: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, driving courses in lieu of receiving a three-point driving Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of licence penalty in each of the last three years. [37708] Commons Commission, if the House of Commons Commission will take steps to install recharging points James Brokenshire: The information requested is not for electric and hybrid vehicles in the House of collected centrally. Commons car park. [36821] Data that are collected centrally relating to motoring John Thurso: Two recharging points have recently offences are published within chapters 3 and 4 of the been installed and are designed to recharge the latest Home Office Statistical Bulletin: “Police Power and version of the Toyota Prius (which will be used by the Procedures”. Copies are available from the Home Office Government Car Service). As technology progresses the website and the Library of the House. House authorities will keep this under review. Data on convictions for motoring offences are published within chapter 8 of the Ministry of Justice Bulletin: “Criminal Statistics”. HOME DEPARTMENT Current and previous editions of both publications are available online and in the Library of the House. Departmental Art Works Entry Clearances: Bangladesh Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much her Department Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home has spent on artwork since May 2010. [37578] Department how many student visas were granted to citizens of Bangladesh in each of the last five years. Damian Green: There has been no money spent by [37585] the Department on artwork at Home Office Headquarters since May 2010. Damian Green: The number of student visas issued to nationals of Bangladesh in each year since 2005 is shown Departmental Regulation in the following table. Those issued after 31 March 2009 were issued under tier 4 of the points based system. Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for the Student visas issued to Nationals of Bangladesh Home Department what regulations her Department Visas issued has removed since 6 May 2010. [37374] 2005 2961 Damian Green: The following regulations have been 2006 3375 removed since 6 May 2010: 2007 3444 The Immigration and Nationality (Cost Recovery Fees) Regulations 2008 3314 2010 (S.I. 2010/228) were revoked by the Immigration and 2009 17303 Nationality (Cost Recovery Fees) (No.2) Regulations 2010 20101 6732 (S.I. 2010/2226) on 1 October 2010. 1January to September 2010 only. The Misuse of Drugs (Licence Fees) Regulations 1986 (S.I. These data are unpublished and are based on 1986/416) and the Misuse of Drugs (Licence Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2003 (S.I. 2003/611) were revoked by the Misuse management information. They are provisional and of Drugs (Licence Fees) Regulations 2010 (S.I. 2010/2497) on subject to change. 15 November 2010. The steep rise in visas issued in 2009 is evidence of The Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Regulations 2010 serious abuse of the student entry route following the (SI 2010/778) were revoked by the Immigration and Nationality introduction of tier 4. The Government are determined (Fees) (No.2) Regulations 2010 (SI 2010/2807) on 22 November to stop this abuse and is therefore currently conducting 2010. a major review of student visas. The Immigration (Designation of Travel Bans) (Amendment) Order 2009 (S.I 2009/3044) was revoked by the Immigration Entry Clearances: Republic of Ireland (Designation of Travel Bans) (Amendment) Order 2010 (S.I. 2010/2813) on 20 December 2010. The Private Security Industry Act 2001 (Exemption) (Aviation Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for the Security) Regulations 2006 (S.I. 2006/428), regulation 2 of the Home Department what point of entry facilities are Private Security Industry Act 2001 Regulations (Amendment) available for those entering the UK from abroad via the 785W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 786W

Republic of Ireland who activate the residency permit James Brokenshire: The financial viability of forensic in their passport granting temporary or permanent suppliers was assessed as part of the procurement for right of abode in the UK. [37746] the National Forensic Framework Agreement and continues to be monitored as part of the contract management Damian Green: The Republic of Ireland, Channel process of the National Forensic Framework. In the Islands, Isle of Man and the UK form what is referred context of a wind down of the Forensic Science Service to as the common travel area (CTA). Under Section 1(3) (FSS), the appropriate due diligence will take place for of the Immigration Act 1971 arrival in and departure any transfers of contracts and capacity from the Forensic from the UK on a local journey from or to the CTA will Science Service. not be subject to immigration control. There are therefore Assessments of the financial position of companies no routine UK immigration control facilities for persons in the forensics market are commercial in confidence. arriving from the Republic of Ireland (or the rest of the CTA). Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Under the Immigration (Leave to Enter and Remain) Home Department if she will take steps to establish Order 2000 the visa or entry clearance of a person contingency arrangements should private sector companies arriving in the UK and presenting it for the first time be unable to supply forensic science support required by has effect as leave to enter the UK, regardless of whether police forces. [37112] they are examined on arrival. Such a person arriving from the Republic of Ireland would benefit in the same James Brokenshire: As we announced in a written way and would not need to do anything further to ministerial statement on 14 December 2010, Official activate their leave. Report, columns 94-96WS, the continued provision of forensic supply is a key priority. A person with leave to enter or remain in the UK for a period greater than six months granted previously Human Trafficking would benefit in a similar way, regardless of whether they are examined on arrival. They would not need to do anything further when entering from the Republic of Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for the Ireland. Home Department if she will meet representatives of Migrant Helpline to discuss the Government’s proposed A person with the right of abode is treated the same new policy on combating human trafficking in order to way as someone holding a British citizen passport. The develop a comprehensive approach. [37735] UK Border Agency does not endorse the passports of British citizens or of dual nationals with the right of Damian Green: Internal work has been progressing abode so such a person would also not need to do on the human trafficking strategy and we are now in anything when entering from the Republic of Ireland. the process of discussing it with non-governmental organisations, including Migrant Helpline. Entry Clearances: Shipping The voluntary sector plays a key role in the provision of support to victims of human trafficking. We are Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for the strongly supportive of this role and will continue to Home Department how many seafarers holding work in partnership with voluntary organisations to documents issued by nations who have ratified reduce the incidence of human trafficking. International Labour Organization Convention 185 were required to apply for entry clearance to the UK Licensed Premises: Alcoholic Drinks from ships at port in each of the last three years. [37609] Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what her policy is on the conduct of Damian Green: Most seafarers do not require entry test purchases of alcohol in drinking establishments by clearance to enter the UK. Under Section 8(1) of the police forces. [37764] Immigration Act 1971 a person arriving as a member of the crew of a ship under engagement to leave the UK as James Brokenshire: The Government take very seriously a member of its crew may, subject to certain exceptions, the issue of selling alcohol to minors. In the coalition enter without leave and remain until the departure of agreement the Government set out their intention to the ship. This applies regardless of whether the crew member raise the maximum fine for selling alcohol to children to holds a seafarer’s identity issued under International £20,000. This measure is currently being taken forward Labour Organization Convention 185 (ILO 185) or not. in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill which is currently before the House. We do not record, of those who are required to obtain leave on arrival or entry clearance from abroad, Each police force takes the decision of how to best how many hold ILO 185 documents. enforce the law on the selling of alcohol to minors. This often involves test purchase operations involving the police and/or trading standards officers. However, policy Forensic Science decisions in relation to the conduct of these operations are taken at a local level. Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the The Home Office published a document in November Home Department what assessment she has made of 2010, containing information about the range of tools the (a) financial viability and (b) compliance with and powers available to tackle alcohol related crime and Companies Act requirements of private sector disorder. Annex 5 of this document relates to test suppliers of forensic science services. [37111] purchasing, and offers advice to people planning or 787W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 788W conducting test purchase operations. However, this Damian Green: I wrote to the right hon. Member on document seeks to offer information and guidance only, 27 January 2011. the operational decisions are taken at a local level. Police: Noise http://www.alcoholdigitalresource.co.uk/ Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Home Department how many complaints police Home Department how many drinking establishments forces received in respect of late-night noise in (a) that failed test purchases of alcohol in (a) Lincoln 2001, (b) 2002, (c) 2003, (d) 2004, (e) 2005 and (f) constituency, (b) Lincolnshire and (c) England and 2006. [36201] Wales were temporarily closed by the police in each of the last five years. [37763] James Brokenshire: The Home Office does not hold this information. James Brokenshire: This information is not collected Tattooing: Children centrally. Information on licensed premises, including the number of premises who have their licences suspended Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the or revoked is available from the Department for Culture, Home Department pursuant to the answer of 19 January Media and Sport website at the following link. However, 2011, Official Report, column 822W, on prosecutions: the information on the website does not state the reasons tattooing, what assessment she has made of the effectiveness why premises had their licenses suspended or revoked. of enforcement of legislation prohibiting the tattooing http://www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/ of children under the age of 16; and if she will make a research_and_statistics/4865.aspx statement. [37666]

Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for James Brokenshire: No specific assessment has been the Home Department what recent assessment she has carried out of the effectiveness of enforcement of this made of the effectiveness of test purchasing of alcohol particular legislation, either by the police or the Crown in drinking establishments by police forces. [37765] Prosecution Service. Individual offences under the Tattooing of Minors James Brokenshire: The Government take very seriously Act 1969 are classed as summary offences. Data for the issue of selling alcohol to minors. In the coalition such offences under the Act cannot be separately identified agreement the Government set out their intention to on the Ministry of Justice Court proceedings database raise the maximum fine for selling alcohol to children to as they form part of a miscellaneous group which £20,000. This measure is currently being taken forward cannot be separately analysed. in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill It is not therefore possible to gauge the effectiveness which is currently before the House. of the enforcement of this legislation through the use of We have made no recent assessment of the effectiveness available statistical data. of test purchasing operations. Each police force is responsible for enforcing the law on underage sales, and each police force area will take a view on the effectiveness ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS of test purchase operations when deciding how the law on underage sales will be enforced. Bees Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much the Home Department if she will estimate the cost to funding she has allocated to the National Bee Unit to the public purse of conducting test purchasing of address recent trends in the bee population. [36073] alcohol in drinking establishments in (a) Lincoln constituency, (b) Lincolnshire and (c) England and Mr Paice: In response to the challenges facing bees, Wales in each of the last five years. [37766] in 2009 DEFRA allocated £2.3 million to the Food and Environment Research Agency’s National Bee Unit James Brokenshire: The Home Office has not estimated (NBU) to implement the first two years of the 10-year the cost to the public purse of conducting test purchase Healthy Bees Plan in partnership with the Welsh Assembly operations. Each police force area takes the decision as Government and others. This work is aimed at protecting to how to enforce the law on the sale of alcohol to and improving the health of honey bees. DEFRA also minors. allocates funding to the NBU to control statutory diseases The costs of the test purchase operations will be and pests of honey bees, to monitor colony losses and considered by each police force area when this decision to provide advice to enable beekeepers to become more is made. self-reliant in combating disease through improved bee husbandry; this year’s allocation was £1.3 million. Over the last two years, there has been a significant reduction Members: Correspondence in the number of colonies that have been lost compared to previous years and last year’s losses were the lowest Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for since 2001. the Home Department when she intends to Answer the In addition, DEFRA has allocated £2.5 million over letter sent to her by the right hon. Member for five years towards the £10 million Insect Pollinator Manchester, Gorton on 20 December 2010, with regard Initiative which is also being funded by the Scottish to Elain Thornton. [37230] Executive, the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences 789W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 790W

Research Council, the Natural Environment Research 21. Beet Seed (England.) (Amendment) Regulations 2005 Council and the Wellcome Trust. The initiative’s purpose 22. Cereal Seed (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2005 is to promote innovative research aimed at understanding 23. Fodder Plant (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2005 and mitigating the biological and environmental factors 24. Oil and Fibre Plant Seed (England) (Amendment) Regulations that adversely affect insect pollinators, including bumble 2005 and honey bees. 25. Vegetable Seed (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2005 Bees: Urban Areas 26. Seed (Registration, Licensing and Enforcement) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2005 Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for 27. Seed (England) (Amendments for Tests and Trials etc) Regulations 2006 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will assess the merits of issuing guidance to local councils to 28. Cereal Seed (England) and Fodder Plant (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2006 encourage greater numbers of beekeepers in cities. 29. Seed (Miscellaneous Amendments) (England) Regulations [36071] 2007 Mr Paice: We have no plans to issue specific guidance 30. Seed (Conservation Varieties Amendments) (England) Regulations 2009 to local councils. However, the Food and Environment Research Agency’s National Bee Unit (NBU) and its 31. The Agricultural Holdings (Units of Production) (England) bee inspectors provide free advice and guidance to Order 2009 beekeepers including to those in cities. Further information 32. Commons Registration (Publicity) Regulations 1966 is available on the NBU’s BeeBase website. DEFRA 33. Commons Registration (Objections and Maps) (Amendment) and the NBU recently supported the London Bee summit, Regulations 1970 Commons Commissioners Regulations 1971 which was a City of London initiative to encourage 34. Commons Registration (Second Period References) Regulations beekeeping in the city, and would be pleased to support 1973 similar schemes elsewhere. 35. Commons Registration (Objection and Maps) (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2007 Departmental Regulations 36. Commons Registration (General) (Amendment) (England) (No 2) Regulations 2007 Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for 37. Commons Registration (General) (Amendment) (Wales) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what regulations Regulations 2007 her Department has removed since 6 May 2010. [37377] 38. The Smoke Control Areas (Exempted Fireplaces) (England) Order 2010 Mr Paice: The 45 regulations listed as follows were 39. The Veterinary Surgery (Artificial Insemination) Order revoked in the period May 2010 to end of December 2007 2010: 40. Veterinary Surgery (Artificial Insemination) (Amendment) 1. Plant Health (Import Inspection Fees) (England) Regulations Order 2007 2006 41. Veterinary Surgery (Artificial Insemination) (Amendment) 2. Plant Health (Import Inspection Fees) (England) (Amendment) Order 2009 Regulations 2007 42. The Veterinary Surgery (Epidural Anaesthesia) Order 1992 3. Plant Health (Import Inspection Fees) (England) (Amendment) 43. Veterinary Surgery (Rectal Ultrasound Scanning of Bovines) (No 2) Regulations 2007 Order 2002 4. Plant Health (Import Inspection Fees) (England) (Amendment) 44. Zoonoses and Animal By-Products (Fees) (England) Regulations 2008 Regulations 2009 5. Plant Health (Import Inspection Fees) (England) (Amendment) 45. The Producer Responsibility Obligations (Packaging Waste) Regulations 2009 (Amendment) Regulations 2008 6. Ecodesign for Energy-Using Products Regulations 2007 7. Ecodesign for Energy-Using Products (Amendment) Regulations Farmers 2009 8. Beet Seed (England) Regulations 2002 Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for 9. Fodder Plant Seed (England) Regulations 2002 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent estimate 10. Cereal Seed (England) Regulations 2002 she has made of the number of farm workers in each of 11. Oil and Fibre Plant Seed (England) Regulations 2002 the last three years for which figures are available; and if she will make a statement. [37257] 12. Vegetable Seed (England) Regulations 2002 13. Seed (Registration, Licensing and Enforcement) (England) Mr Paice: The latest estimates of the number of farm Regulations 2002 workers in England as at June for each of the last three 14. Oil and Fibre Plant Seed (England) (Amendment) Regulations years are: 2003 15. Beet Seed (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 Number of farm workers1 16. Cereal Seed (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 2008 134,000 (14,000) 17. Fodder Plant Seed (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 2009 127,000 (10,000) 18. Oil and Fibre Plant Seed (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2010 123,000 (11,000) 2004 Note: These figures include farm managers, the numbers of which are 19. Vegetable Seed (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 indicated in brackets. 20. Seed (Registration, Licensing and Enforcement) (England) Source: (Amendment) Regulations 2004 June Survey of Agriculture and Horticulture 791W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 792W

Forestry Commission years were determined (a) within six weeks, (b) between six and 12 weeks, (c) between 12 and 18 weeks, (d) Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for between 18 and 26 weeks and (e) more than 26 weeks Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which Forestry after submission. [37667] Commission sites in England are to be disposed of in each of the next four financial years. [37761] Mr Djanogly: The following table shows the time taken from the date of a disputed Department for Work Mr Paice: The Government have launched a consultation and Pensions (DWP) decision for employment support on a range of new ownership and management models allowance being lodged with DWP to the date of clearance for the public forest estate. This includes proposals such by the Tribunals Service. as the transfer of heritage forests to charitable organisations, Time in weeks from date of ESA appeal lodgement to clearance by and the option for communities to buy or lease forests Tribunals Service which are important to them. This consultation will Weeks inform the future of the public forest estate. Number of appeals The selection criteria for woodland in the Forestry Less Greater Commission’s 2011-12 asset sales programme have recently than 6 6 to 12 12 to 18 18 to 26 than 26 been agreed and published on the Forestry Commission’s 2008-09 website. The Forestry Commission anticipates publishing 1 details of the woodlands that will be selected for sale in Quarter 3 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 2011-12 by the end of February. Quarter 4 71 45 6 0 1 Total 71 45 6 0 1 Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy is on the 2009-10 creation of legal obligations on the maintenance of Quarter 1 270 1,100 780 120 3 footpaths, tracks or public access to car parks on land Quarter 2 370 3,300 4,200 3,000 270 leased or managed by the Forestry Commission which Quarter 3 500 3,800 6,500 9,900 2,600 may be subject to sale during the comprehensive spending Quarter 4 360 2,700 6,300 12,600 11,600 review period. [35478] Total 1,500 10,900 17,780 25,600 14,500 Mr Paice: The Government’s policy is to protect the public benefits that are currently provided by the public 2010-11 forest estate. Our consultation on the future ownership Quarter 1 310 3,500 5,300 9,300 17,000 and management of the public forest estate sets out and Quarter 2 470 4,700 6,300 9,100 22,000 invites views on our proposals for protecting. The case Total 780 8,200 11,600 18,400 39,000 for creating legal obligations on the safeguarding of 1 There are no data for quarter 3 of 2008-09 as ESA as a benefit came existing footpaths, tracks or public access to car parks into existence in October 2008 and the appeals did not start to be will be considered as part of that consultation. For sales received nationally until the last quarter of 2008-09. that are completed before the consultation is concluded, The Tribunals Service’s target is to issue a final decision the protection of public benefits will be a key factor in for 75% of Social Security and Child Support appeals both the criteria for site selection and there will be an within 16 weeks of receipt from the DWP. Employment opportunity for the voluntary sector or public bodies to support allowance appeals take 9.2 weeks from the date identify areas of land in which they have a particular of the original DWP decision to arrive at the Tribunals interest in order to safeguard or enhance public benefits. Service. The Tribunal has received an unexpectedly high level UK Forestry Standard of appeals, against employment support allowance decisions. In response, the Tribunals Service has significantly increased Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for its capacity and, nationally, 47% more Social Security Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she expects and Child Support appeals were cleared in September the revised edition of the UK Forestry Standard and its 2010 compared to September 2009. associated environmental guidelines to be published. [37762] Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: I expect the revised edition of the UK Justice what estimate he has made of the cost to his Forestry Standard to be published later this year. As the Department of the Employment and Support Allowance forestry standard is of UK-wide application and forestry Appeals Tribunal Service in each of last two years. policy is devolved, publication will be through agreement [37669] with the relevant forestry Ministers. Mr Djanogly: Employment and support allowance (ESA) was introduced to replace incapacity benefit and income support from 27 October 2008. The Department JUSTICE for Work and Pensions forwards ESA appeals to the First-tier Tribunal—Social Security and Child Support. Appeals: Employment and Support Allowance The Tribunal then aims to issue the final decision for 75% of appeals within 16 weeks. The time taken between Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for appeals being lodged with DWP and being decided by Justice what proportion of employment and support the Tribunal means that 125 ESA appeals were decided allowance appeals lodged in each quarter of the last two during 2008-09. This increased to 70,500 during 2009-10. 793W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 794W

The cost of ESA appeals calculated by multiplying The Department is also currently conducting a review the average cost of an individual First-tier Tribunal—Social of the existing research on litigants in person in connection Security and Child Support case by the number of with its proposals for the reform of legal aid. Findings appeals decided during each year was £35,000 in 2008-09 will feed into the legal aid consultation response. and £19.8 million in 2009-10. Courts: Travellers Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what proportion of applications for employment Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and support allowance made by residents of Chippenham if he will take steps to reduce the time taken for constituency were rejected on the basis of the work consideration by the courts of applications relating to capability assessment in each of the last two years; and repeated incursions on the same piece of private land in respect of what proportion of such applications that by Travellers, as has happened recently in Royds Lane, decision was (a) reversed and (b) upheld on appeal. Leeds. [37109] [37671] Mr Djanogly: We are not aware of any lengthy delays Mr Djanogly: The Department for Work and Pensions in cases relating to repeated incursions on private land (DWP) does not hold the data on work capability by Travellers. The existing civil court process allows for assessments for the Chippenham constituency.employment a warrant of restitution to evict Travellers following and support allowance (ESA) claims made within the wrongful re-entry on to the land to be made swiftly hon. Member’s constituency are dealt with by the Wiltshire without the need for further notice to be served on unitary authority (UA). 32% of all new claims made Travellers. There are currently no plans to review the within the Wiltshire UA from October 2008 to May time taken to process applications of this nature. 2010 were found fit to work by the end of October 2010. The following table shows the decisions made by the Departmental Libraries first-tier tribunal—social security and child support on work capability assessment related ESA appeals registered Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice at the Chippenham tribunal venue. how many (a) certified and (b) chartered librarians his Outcomes—Chippenham tribunal venue Department and its predecessors have employed in Percentage each year since 2000. [37652] Total Decision decision Percentage cleared in favour in favour DWP DWP Mr Djanogly: The number of certified and chartered at of of decision decision hearing appellant appellant upheld upheld librarians employed by the Ministry of Justice and its predecessors is as follows: 2008-09 Q3 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Chartered Certified Total Q4 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 2011 12 0 12 Total 2010 13 0 13 2009 14 0 14 2009-10 2008 15 0 15 Q1 3 0 0.00 3 100.00 2007 14 0 14 Q2 10 4 40.00 6 60.00 2006 13 0 13 Q3 27 14 51.85 13 48.15 2005 11 0 11 Q4 44 21 47.73 23 52.27 2004 11 n/a 11 Total 84 39 46.43 45 53.57 2003 10 n/a 10 2002 9 n/a 9 2010-11 2001 8 n/a 8 2000 9 n/a 9 Q1 110 57 51.82 53 48.18 Q2 55 19 34.55 36 65.45 The details for certification are only available since Total 165 76 46.06 89 53.94 2005 when this qualification was introduced by the Note: Chartered Institute for Library and Information Data taken from Crystals Report 28 January 2011 Professionals. Civil Law Insurance Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Justice what research his Department has conducted on how many individuals were (a) prosecuted for and (b) the ability of individuals without legal or advice work convicted of offences involving uninsured drivers of expertise to conduct their own civil law cases; and if he motor vehicles in the latest period for which figures are will make a statement. [37633] available. [37089]

Mr Djanogly: The Department published research by Mr Blunt: The following table shows the number of Richard Moorhead and Mark Sefton of Cardiff university persons proceeded against at the magistrates court, and on this issue in 2005. This is available at: found guilty at all courts for driving without insurance http://www.dca.gov.uk/research/2005/res05fr.htm in England and Wales, for 2009 (latest available). 795W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 796W

Data for 2010 are planned for publication in the ONS Population Trends 138 may be found in the spring of 2011. House of Commons Libraries and at the following web Number of persons proceeded against at the magistrates court and link: found guilty at all courts for driving without insurance, England and http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/Product.asp?vlnk=6303 Wales, 20091,2 Offence Proceeded Found Prisoners: Rehabilitation Statute description against guilty

809/01 Road Traffic Using motor 156,055 131,309 Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Act 1988 vehicle S.143(2) uninsured what criteria must be met for a prisoner to be allowed to against third be employed in the community as part of their rehabilitation party risks strategy. [37384] 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they Mr Blunt: A prisoner will be employed in the community were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is only under release on temporary licence (ROTL). Prisoners imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more must be assessed as both eligible and suitable before offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory ROTL is permitted. The criteria for each test are detailed maximum penalty is the most severe. in Prison Service Order 6300, which may be accessed 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate via: and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/resourcecentre/psispsos/ the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken listpsos/# to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are ROTL will not be granted unless the purpose of the taken into account when those data are used. Source: leave is one that contributes directly to the prisoner’s Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice resettlement into the community or, exceptionally, it is required to enable them to deal responsibly with unexpected Prisoners: Armed Forces family and personal events. Leave for employment purposes falls under the resettlement heading and is reserved for the latter stages of the prisoner’s time in custody. All Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for prisoners released on ROTL must first pass a rigorous Justice (1) what percentage of (a) the prison population risk assessment taking into account the risks of harm, and (b) prisoners who have previously served in the reoffending and absconding, and the impact of the armed forces have been diagnosed with a mental health particular release upon both the victim and public disorder; [37336] confidence in the administration of justice. (2) what percentage of (a) prisoners and (b) the general population have served in the armed forces. Prisons: Christmas [37337]

Mr Blunt: The diagnosis and treatment of mental Penny Mordaunt: To ask the Secretary of State for health problems suffered by prisoners is carried out by Justice how much expenditure was incurred by his medical professionals under the NHS prison mental Department under each budget heading in connection health in-reach programme. Figures are not held centrally with marking Christmas in prisons in each year since on prisoners who have been so diagnosed and who are 1997. [37620] receiving treatment in prison. Mr Blunt: The National Offender Management Service However, in the most recent survey of prisoner Agency’s accounting system does not have an account backgrounds published by the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) code for expenditure on marking Christmas in prisons, in November 2010, 17% reported having been treated or therefore no expenditure information is available centrally counselled for a mental health or emotional problem in and it would be necessary to ask each prison to provide the year before custody. The results of this survey may information from its local records and this would incur be found in the House of Commons Libraries and at disproportionate cost. the following web link: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/compendium- reoffending.htm Supreme Court In September 2010, the MoJ and Ministry of Defence published the results of a joint study to estimate how Mr Cash: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) many prisoners in England and Wales had been in the who the members were of the Selection Commission Regular Armed Forces. This showed that 3.5% of prisoners for the Justices of the Supreme Court on each occasion had previously served in the Regular Armed Forces. when the Commission has been convened; [37498] This report may be found in the House of Commons (2) what guidance he has issued under section 27(9) Libraries and at the following web link: of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005; and if he will http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/ publish the guidance he has given as to matters to be index.php?page-66&pubTvpe=3 taken into account; [37499] In the winter of 2009, the Office for National Statistics (3) if he will place in the Library copies of the (a) (ONS) published the results of a study to estimate the advertisement, (b) information pack for applicants number of Armed Forces veterans in the general population and (c) selection criteria in respect of each occasion on of England. This showed that 9.1% of the population which a position on the Supreme Court was advertised. were veterans. [37525] 797W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 798W

Mr Kenneth Clarke: Since the Supreme Court came For the appointment of Lord Collins, Lord Clarke into being there have been two selection commissions and Lord Kerr in 2009: convened under the Act. Prior to 1 October 2009, it was The Rt Hon The Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood agreed by the Lord Chancellor that the selection commission The Rt Hon The Lord Carswell procedure be used on a non-statutory basis. The Rt Hon The Lady Hale of Richmond In 2008-09, the commission convened to select The Rt Hon The Lord Hope of Craighead replacements for Lord Hoffman, Lord Carswell and The Rt Hon The Lord Mance Lord Scott all of whom retired as Lords of Appeal in Ordinary. The commission comprised: Lord Phillips The Rt Hon The Lord Neuberger of Abbotsbury and Lord Hoffman as Senior Law Lord and Second The Rt Hon The Lord Rodger of Earlsferry Senior Law Lord respectively; Baroness Prashar The Rt Hon The Lord Saville of Newdigate representing the Judicial Appointments Commission of The Rt Hon The Lord Scott of Foscote England and Wales, Mr Justice Weatherup representing The Rt Hon The Lord Walker of Gestingthorpe the Judicial Appointments Commission in Northern The Rt Hon Lord Judge, Lord Chief Justice of England and Ireland and Ms Elspeth MacArthur representing the Wales Judicial Appointments Board in Scotland. Lord Justice The Rt Hon Lord Hamilton, Lord President of the Court of Collins, Sir Brian Kerr and Lord Justice Clarke were Session appointed. The Rt Hon Lord Gill, Lord Justice Clerk In 2009-10, the commission convened to recommend The Rt Hon Sir Anthony May, President of the Queen’s Bench a replacement for Lord Neuberger, who was appointed Division as Master of the Rolls, as a Justice of the Supreme The Rt Hon Sir Mark Potter, President of the Family Division Court. The commission comprised: Lord Phillips and The Rt Hon Sir Andrew Morritt, Chancellor of the High Lord Hope as President and Deputy President of the Court Court respectively; Baroness Prashar representing the The Rt Hon Sir Mark Waller, Vice-President of the Court of Judicial Appointments Commission of England and Appeal, Civil Division Wales, Lady Smith representing the Judicial Appointments The Rt Hon Lord Justice Higgins, member of the Court of Board in Scotland; and Mrs Ruth Laird representing Appeal in Northern Ireland the Judicial Appointments Commission in Northern Rt Hon Alex Salmond MSP, First Minister for Scotland Ireland. Lord Justice Dyson was appointed. Rt Hon Rhodri Morgan AM, First Minister for Wales In 2010-11 a commission was convened to replace Rt Hon Shaun Woodward MP, Secretary of State for Northern Lord Saville who retired in October 2010 and Lord Ireland Collins who will retire in May 2011. The commission comprised: Lord Phillips and Lord Hope as President For the appointment of Lord Dyson in April 2010: and Deputy President of the Court respectively; Professor The Rt Hon The Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood Dame Hazel Genn representing the Judicial Appointments The Rt Hon Lord Clarke of Stone-cum-Ebony Commission in England and Wales; Sir Muir Russell The Rt Hon Lord Collins of Mapesbury representing the Judicial Appointment Board in Scotland The Rt Hon The Lady Hale of Richmond and Lord Justice Coghlin representing the Judicial The Rt Hon Lord Kerr of Tonaghmore Appointments Commission in Northern Ireland. I have The Rt Hon The Lord Mance very recently received the commission’s report and am about to undertake consultation in accordance with The Rt Hon The Lord Rodger of Earlsferry section 28(5) of the Constitutional Reform Act. The Rt Hon The Lord Saville of Newdigate Under section 27(9) of the Constitutional Reform The Rt Hon The Lord Walker of Gestingthorpe Act 2005, the commission must have regard to any The Rt Hon Lord Judge, Lord Chief Justice of England and guidance given by the Lord Chancellor as to matters to Wales be taken into account in making a selection. To date, The Rt Hon Sir Anthony May, President of the Queen’s Bench this section of the Act has never been used and no Division guidance has ever been issued. The Rt Hon Sir Mark Potter, President of the Family Division I am today placing copies of the advertisements, The Rt Hon Sir Andrew Morritt, Chancellor of the High information packs for applicants and selection criteria Court in respect of each occasion the commission has been The Rt Hon Lord Neuberger, Master of the Rolls convened in the Libraries of the House. The Rt Hon Lord Hamilton, Lord President of the Court of Session Mr Cash: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice The Rt Hon Sir Declan Morgan, Lord Chief Justice of Northern which (a) persons and (b) organisations were Ireland consulted by his Department on the selection process The Rt Hon Lord Gill, Lord Justice Clerk for Justices of the Supreme Court on each occasion on Rt Hon Alex Salmond MSP, First Minister for Scotland which an appointment was made. [37524] Rt Hon Carwyn Jones AM, First Minister for Wales Rt Hon Shaun Woodward MP, Secretary of State for Northern Mr Kenneth Clarke: It is set out in section 28 (5) of Ireland the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 those whom the For the appointment of the replacements for Lord Lord Chancellor is required to consult following receipt Saville and Lord Collins, currently being undertaken: of the report from the selection commission. No organisations are consulted. I list as follows the people The Rt Hon Lord Rodger of Earlsferry who were consulted for each appointment made to the The Rt Hon Lord Walker of Gestingthorpe Supreme Court. The Rt Hon Lady Hale of Richmond 799W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 800W

The Rt Hon Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood Norman Baker: A strategy setting out how the installation The Rt Hon Lord Mance of charging infrastructure can be promoted across the The Rt Hon Lord Collins of Mapesbury UK is due to be published in the summer of 2011. This The Rt Hon Lord Kerr of Tonaghmore will include the role of infrastructure in addressing range anxiety. The Rt Hon Lord Clarke of Stone-cum-Ebony The Rt Hon Lord Dyson To support and inform this strategy the Government have made available £30 million for infrastructure projects The Rt Hon Lord Judge (Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales) which will deliver over 8,500 charging points in eight places across the UK. The Rt Hon Lord Neuberger of Abbotsbury (Master of the Rolls) Electric Vehicles: Rural Areas The Rt Hon Lord Hamilton (The Lord President, Scotland) The Rt Hon Sir Declan Morgan QC PC (Lord Chief Justice of Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Northern Ireland) whether his Department has plans to install charging The Rt Hon Lord Gill (Lord Justice Clerk, Scotland) points for electric vehicles in rural areas. [36908] The Rt Hon Sir Anthony May (President of the Queen’s Bench Division) Norman Baker: The Secretary of State for Transport The Rt Hon Sir Nicholas Wall (President of the Family announced the outcome of the second round of Plugged-In Division) Places funding on 14 December 2010. Five projects The Rt Hon Sir Andrew Morritt (Chancellor of the High were successful—based in Northern Ireland, Central Court) Scotland, Greater Manchester, the Midlands and the The Rt Hon Carwyn Jones AM (First Minister, Wales) East of England. These supplement the three existing The Rt Hon Alex Salmond MSP (First Minister of Scotland) projects in London, Milton Keynes and the North East. The projects cover a wide range of different locations, from large cities to rural areas and a range of technologies. TRANSPORT The outcomes of these projects will inform the development of national policy regarding electric vehicle Cycling infrastructure, with a strategy for promoting the installation of charging infrastructure due to be published in June Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport 2011. what plans he has to encourage cycling as a means of commuting. [36836] Freight Facilities Grant Scheme

Norman Baker: On the 19 January the Government Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for published a Local Transport White Paper—“Creating Transport how much funding he has allocated to the Growth, Cutting Carbon”. This strategy encourages Freight Facilities Grant scheme in (a) 2010-11 and (b) greater use of public transport and more active travel, each of the next three years. [36357] including cycling. The Government have announced a Local Sustainable Mike Penning: The information requested is as follows: Transport Fund of £560 million over four years for (a) £2.1 million was allocated to Freight Facility local authorities to bid for funding for sustainable travel Grant infrastructure projects in 2010-11 before the scheme packages, including measures to encourage cycling to was suspended in England in July 2010. work. (b) No funding has been allocated for the next three The Department has also launched an electronic years. We have discontinued the scheme in England, as cycle journey planner, available via Transport Direct. part of the measures necessary to reduce the deficit. People who would like to cycle can choose the quietest, quickest or most recreational route between two points. High Speed Trains: Property This is currently live in 31 areas and near England-wide coverage is expected by the end of March 2011. Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for The DfT continues to support the Cycle to Work Transport how many applications have been made to scheme through the provision of the Cycle to Work the High Speed Two Exceptional Hardship scheme; scheme implementation guidance and any further advice how many such applications have been (a) accepted required by employers and employees via telephone and and (b) refused to date; what estimate he has made of written correspondence. the time taken from receiving an application to the In addition the Department funds the National Business applicant being informed of the decision; what the date Travel Network, which launched a ‘ways2work’ tool kit was on which the least recent application not yet in November 2010 to help people and businesses work decided upon was received by his Department; and more efficiently. The tool kit includes a section on what the total amount of compensation is that has commuting and encouraging cycling and walking for been committed under the scheme to date. [36006] work. Mr Philip Hammond: The Exceptional Hardship scheme Electric Vehicles (EHS) has, as of 21 January, received 115 applications. 20 applications have been accepted so far and 65 Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport applications have been rejected. The remaining 30 whether his Department has plans to address range applications have not yet reached the decision stage in anxiety for owners of electric vehicles. [36909] the EHS process. 801W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 802W

For those applications where a decision has been Mike Penning: In 2009, 55% (23,554,102) of road made, it has taken on average around two months from fund licences were issued by the Post Office and 40% per receiving the application to inform the applicant of the cent (17,064,511) were issued online. decision, although this varies from application to Road fund licences were also issued by DVLA Local application. Our aim is to give applicants a decision Offices and through an electronic link with fleet operators. within three months wherever possible. The oldest Local Offices issued 2% (1,051,638) and 3% (1,256,089) application not yet decided on was received on 12 October. were issued electronically to fleet operators. The total committed spend under the scheme so far is £9,083,750. This is the cost of properties where a valuation Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation has been obtained and agreed with the applicant. Applications that have been accepted under the EHS but where a formal valuation of the property has not Mr Spencer: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport yet been agreed are estimated at a further £13,800,000. when he plans to publish his consultation on the Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation. [36788]

HM Coastguard Norman Baker: Amendments to the Renewable Transport Fuel (RTFO) Order 2007 are being considered to implement Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for both the transport elements of the Renewable Energy Transport what assessment he has made of the effectiveness Directive (RED) and aspects of the closely related Fuel of HM Coastguard; and what assessment he has made Quality Directive (FQD). of its likely future effectiveness. [36414] We have taken additional time to consider how best to implement the RED and FQD and are working to Mike Penning: HM Coastguard’s operational transpose the Directives in the second half of this year, effectiveness is monitored using a combination of measures, and to implement by the end of 2011. The Department including training and qualifications, equipment, will publish consultation documents shortly. operational readiness and response times. As part of the consultation exercise we intend to set The effectiveness of the current arrangements can be out a timetable for implementation and will share this affected by the limited ability to match resources to with stakeholders. The consultation will include workload, as explained in the public consultation document implementation proposals on the detail of the sustainability ‘Protecting our Seas and Shores in the 21st Century’. criteria to be transposed into the RTFO. This document is available in the Libraries of the House and on the Maritime and Coastguard Agency website. Rescue Services We believe that the proposed future structure would improve the effectiveness of rescue co-ordination activity Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for by providing a fully networked national arrangement Transport how many times assistance from another that would allow work to be better distributed. state was requested for a search and rescue mission in In addition, the fully networked arrangements being each of the last five years; what asset was provided in proposed would improve the resilience of the system to each case; what the location of the incident was in each disruption or discontinuity. case; and on how many occasions the other state did not provide the assistance requested. [37268] Leeds-Bradford Airport Mike Penning: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave on 22 November 2010, Official Report, Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for column 29W. Transport how many passengers used Leeds-Bradford airport in each of the last five years. [36456] The information is not held in the form requested and could be obtained only at disproportionate costs. Mrs Villiers: The number of passengers that used Leeds-Bradford airport in each of the last five years for Road Works which published data are available is as follows: Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Passengers whether he has plans to introduce a levy on deep 2009 2,574,426 trenching by utility companies. [35699] 2008 2,873,321 2007 2,881,539 Norman Baker: The Government have no current plans to do so. 2006 2,792,686 2005 2,609,638 Source: Speed Limits: Fines Civil Aviation Authority statistics Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Motor Vehicles: Licensing how many motorists received (a) fixed penalty notices and (b) convictions in respect of offences connected Caroline Nokes: To ask the Secretary of State for with exceeding temporary speed limits on motorways in Transport what proportion of road fund licences were each of the last five years. [37705] issued (a) by the Post Office and (b) in response to an online application in 2009. [37753] James Brokenshire: I have been asked to reply. 803W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 804W

The information requested is not collected centrally. I am satisfied that the guidance, which represents a Motoring offences data are collected by police force code of good practice, provides clear direction to the area only, and cannot be broken down to specific roads. sector as well as to stakeholders with a complaint Data on fixed penalty notices are published within against a trust port. If a complainant believes the chapter 3 of the Home Office Annual Statistical Bulletin: response from a trust port is not reasonable in addressing “Police Powers and Procedures”. Data on convictions the grounds of their concern, the matter should then be for motoring offences are published within chapter 8 of reported to the Department for Transport. the Ministry of Justice Bulletin: “Criminal Statistics”. Tyres: Snow and Ice Current and previous editions of both publications are available online and in the Library of the House. Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Transport if he will discuss with his German counterpart how many motorists received (a) fixed penalty notices the potential for use in the UK of tyres used in winter and (b) court convictions for offences of speeding on conditions in Germany. [35247] the M6 Toll in each of the last five years. [37707] Mike Penning: The Secretary of State for Transport James Brokenshire: I have been asked to reply. will be meeting his German counterpart soon, but is not planning to discuss the use of winter tyres in the UK. The information requested is not collected centrally. Motoring offences data are collected by police force Given typical UK winter weather and the cost of area only, and cannot be broken down to specific roads. winter tyres (including cost of storage and changing tyres twice a year), it would not be appropriate to Data on fixed penalty notices are published within mandate their use in the UK. chapter 3 of the Home Office Annual Statistical Bulletin: “Police Powers and Procedures”. Data on convictions for motoring offences are published within chapter 8 of the Ministry of Justice Bulletin: “Criminal Statistics”. ATTORNEY-GENERAL Current and previous editions of both publications are available online and in the Library of the House. Business Plans

Trust Ports Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Denton Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for and Reddish of 30 November 2010, Official Report, Transport if he will make it his policy to oppose any columns 661-62W, on business plans, what progress he attempts by a trust port to amend powers available to has made in his consideration of the publication of an him to require such a port to compulsorily transfer internal business plan for the (a) Crown Prosecution itself to a successor company for sale if there is a Service and (b) Serious Fraud Office. [37343] willing buyer. [36009] The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service Mike Penning: The Secretary of State’s power to (CPS) published a revised business plan for 2010-11 on privatise certain trust ports compulsorily is contained in its website on 6 January 2011. The plan sets out the the Ports Act 1991. Under the Harbours Act 1964, it is CPS’ priorities for the rest of 2010-11, including the possible to disapply statutory provisions such as these work to be done to develop and publish a plan for from a port by means of a harbour revision order. the period to 2015. That plan will be published later this Under S.I. 2010 No. 674, most harbour revision year. orders from ports in England and Wales now fall to the The Serious Fraud Office expects to publish a business Marine Management Organisation to determine within plan covering 2011-14 on its website shortly. the procedures set out in the Harbours Act 1964 as amended by the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, Crown Prosecution Service: Extradition and with regard to any relevant policy guidance from the Department for Transport. The Secretary of State Mr Ellwood: To ask the Attorney-General what the will consider his position on any applications for harbour cost to the Crown Prosecution Service was under each revision orders on their merits. category of expenditure of responding to extradition requests in (a) 2006, (b) 2007, (c) 2008, (d) 2009 and Mel Stride: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (e) 2010. [37489] if he will bring forward proposals to revise Schedule 2 of the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967 to make The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service trust ports subject to the jurisdiction of the Parliamentary (CPS) does not separately record information on Commissioner for Administration. [37508] expenditure relating to extradition cases. The information sought could be obtained only at disproportionate cost Mike Penning: I do not believe the application of the (Code of Practice on Access to Government Information, Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967 to trust ports is part 2, clause 9). required. However, there is an Extradition Unit within the CPS The Department for Transport’s guidance to the Special Crime Division and it has been possible to trust ports sector (Modernising Trust Ports, second identify expenditure incurred by the unit, broken down edition) makes clear that trust ports should transact between administration and prosecution costs, since port business, in the interest of all stakeholders, openly financial year 2007-08. This is shown in the following and accountably. table: 805W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 806W

with the provisions set out in (a) equalities legislation £ million and (b) the Human Rights Act 1998; and if he will 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 make a statement. [37359] Administration 0.666 0.879 0.976 costs The Attorney-General: The Law Officers’ Departments Prosecution 0.823 1.243 0.774 are public bodies required to ensure that their policies costs and practices comply with the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 and Human Rights Act 1998. Total 1.490 2.122 1.750 If any significant changes to management, staff or business structures result from the comprehensive spending Administration costs include staff costs and general review these will be assessed against these provisions, administrative expenditure for the Extradition Unit and where appropriate Equality Impact Assessments only. Prosecution costs also include witness expenses will be undertaken. for the Extradition Unit. Departmental Equality WALES Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General pursuant to the answer of 7 December 2010, Official Remploy Report, column 234W,on public expenditure, what progress has been made by the Law Officers’ Departments on 11. Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for undertaking equality impact assessments in respect of Wales what recent discussions she has had with Ministerial the outcome of the comprehensive spending review. colleagues on the future of Remploy factories in Wales; [37254] and if she will make a statement. [36729]

The Attorney-General: The Crown Prosecution Service Mrs Gillan: I have regular discussions with ministerial Areas and HQ Directorate are currently developing colleagues on a range of issues including supporting detailed plans to enable them to work to appropriate disabled people in employment. quality standards within the allocated budgets. The We are absolutely committed to supporting disabled detailed plans will be completed by the end of March people in work, including through Remploy. I appreciate 2011, and the planning process will include the completion the right hon. Lady’s concerns for the factory in her of full equality impact assessments (EIA). The other constituency, in Aberdare, but I would reassure her that Law Officers’ Departments are not currently producing we confirmed as part of the spending review that the any EIA specifically related to the impact of the budget and status of Remploy Ltd remains unchanged. comprehensive spending review. Disability Living Allowance Public Expenditure 12. Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General Wales what discussions she has had with Ministerial under what budget headings expenditure reductions colleagues on the effect on claimants in Wales of will be made by the (a) National Fraud Authority, (b) proposed changes to disability living allowance. [36730] Serious Fraud Office and (c) Crown Prosecution Service following the outcome of the comprehensive Mr David Jones: I have discussions with ministerial spending review. [37358] colleagues about a range of issues relevant to Wales. The time is right to reform disability living allowance. The Attorney-General: The National Fraud Authority We need to create a new, more active and enabling will continue with measures that have been implemented benefit fitted to the needs of people in Wales and across in 2010-11 to reduce expenditure on corporate services, Britain—a benefit fit for the 21st Century. conferences, external recruitment, marketing and advertising. Comprehensive Spending Review The Serious Fraud Office will meet the requirements of the comprehensive spending review by making efficiency 13. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for savings in all areas of its business, but especially on Wales what recent estimate she has made of the number accommodation and corporate support areas, to ensure of public sector job losses in Wales attributable to the that the majority of its budget is focussed on investigating implementation of the outcomes of the comprehensive and prosecuting economic crime and supporting the spending review. [36731] victims of economic crime. Following the outcome of the comprehensive spending Mr David Jones: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the review, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) will make answer I gave to the hon. Member for Newport West expenditure reductions under the following budget headings: (Paul Flynn) today. staff costs, accommodation costs, IT costs, prosecution costs and general administrative costs. These budget Localism Bill headings cover the totality of CPS expenditure. 14. Stuart Andrew: To ask the Secretary of State for Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General Wales what discussions she has had with the Welsh whether he has made an assessment of the compliance Assembly Government on the implications for Wales of of the outcomes of the comprehensive spending review the provisions of the Localism Bill. [36732] 807W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 808W

Mr David Jones: My right hon. Friend the Secretary Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and of State and I have had a number of discussions with Commonwealth Affairs uses a Government car but full the Welsh Assembly Government on the implications details of his transport arrangements are not published for Wales of the provisions of the Localism Bill. for security reasons. Since May 2010 other Foreign and Commonwealth Office Ministers have used a combination Ministerial Visits of allocated and pool cars. From October 2010 only pool cars have been used. The new Ministerial Code, 15. Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for published on 21 May 2010, states that “the number of Wales when she next plans to make an official visit to Ministers with allocated cars and drivers will be kept to Dwyfor Meirionnydd constituency. [36733] a minimum, taking into account security and other relevant considerations. Other Ministers will be entitled Mr David Jones: My right hon. Friend and I have to use cars from the Government Car Service Pool as carried numerous official visits across Wales and will needed.” The Ministerial Code is available on the Cabinet continue to do so over the coming months. Indeed a Office website: ministerial visit will soon take place in the hon. Gentleman’s http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/ministerial- constituency, to see the Fibrespeed broadband project—the code good work it is already doing and its potential for further extension. Kashmir Consultants Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he last discussed what payments her Department has made to consultants Kashmir with his US counterpart; and whether he has discussed Pakistan’s request for US mediation in finding in relation to devolution since 1997. [36801] a resolution in Kashmir with his (a) Indian, (b) Pakistani Mr David Jones: None. or (c) US counterpart since his appointment. [37188] Alistair Burt: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary regularly speaks to his US, Indian and Pakistani FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE counterparts about regional issues including relations between India and Pakistan. He has not discussed the Afghanistan: Females specific issue of US mediation over Kashmir. We recognise the importance of finding a lasting solution to the Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign situation in Kashmir but it is not for the UK to prescribe and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Department one nor to urge others to mediate. It is for India and is taking to support women’s participation in public Pakistan to find a lasting resolution, one which takes life, conflict resolution and peace initiatives in Afghanistan into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people. in line with commitments set out in the Government’s action plan on UN Security Council Resolution 1325. Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for [37790] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of 13 December 2010, Official Report, column Alistair Burt: The UK’s National Action Plan on UN 476W, on Kashmir, whether he has identified any Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1325 has a specific potential mediators to assist in resolving the situation country action plan for Afghanistan which sets out in Kashmir. [37308] implementation of UNSCR 1325 through defence, diplomatic and development activities. Alistair Burt: In my response to the hon. Member of Under these commitments, the Foreign and 13 December 2010, Official Report, column 476W, I Commonwealth Office continues to provide political reiterated the long-standing position of the UK; that it and financial support to programmes which promote is for Pakistan and India to find a lasting resolution to women’s participation in public life, including support the situation in Kashmir, including the issue of self- to female parliamentarians and to women’s civil society determination of the Kashmiri people. We recognise the groups. We have provided support to the Afghan importance of finding a lasting solution but it is not for Independent Election Commission’s (IEC) Gender Unit the UK to prescribe a solution nor to encourage third through the United Nations Development Programme parties to mediate in finding one. ‘Enhancing Legal and Electoral Capacity for Tomorrow’ (ELECT) project. We are promoting female involvement Personnel: Education in the legal profession, which recently included a course in Helmand Province on criminal law and judicial ethics, Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign attended by several women. We also continue to promote and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion of staff in women’s role in the peace and reintegration process, for the Diplomatic Service were (a) policy and (b) operational example, through engaging with the female High Peace staff educated at (i) Oxford University, (ii) Cambridge Council members and supporting a project to involve University and (iii) public schools in each of the last women in the Afghan Peace and Reintegration Plan. four years for which figures are available. [36391] Departmental Official Cars Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) does not hold data centrally on the educational Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for background of diplomatic service staff. The information Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many Ministerial requested could be provided only at disproportionate cars his Department has used since May 2010. [36093] cost. 809W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 810W

The FCO’s recruitment policies are designed to encourage The UK remains a firm supporter of Kosovo and applications from the widest possible range of backgrounds. looks forward to working with the incoming Kosovo All external recruitment into the FCO is based on Government, once it is formed, in its effort to make merit, and all campaigns must be fair and open. In further progress towards fulfilling Kosovo’s European addition, the FCO’s internal promotion and progression perspective. schemes are firmly meritocratic, based on objective and consistent criteria against which all candidates are assessed.

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Tunisia: Politics and Government Afghanistan: Females Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for he has made of the effects of the recent violence in International Development what steps his Department Tunisia; and if he will make a statement. [37325] is taking to support women’s participation in public life, conflict resolution and peace initiatives in Afghanistan Alistair Burt: Following the recent events in Tunisia in line with commitments set out in the Government’s which led to the creation of an interim government of action plan on UN Security Council Resolution 1325. national unity we welcome the reforms it has so far [37791] undertaken, that is, the legalisation of the political opposition, the liberalisation of the media, the release Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International of all political prisoners and the announcement of Development (DFID) leads on delivering key commitments democratic elections later this year. of the UK Government’s national action plan on UN Security Council Resolution 1325 for Afghanistan. DFID Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for supports a number of programmes that enhance women’s Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he participation and influence in public life and contribute has received on the new unity government in Tunisia. to conflict resolution and peace initiatives in Afghanistan. [37328] For example in 2009-10 we helped pay for the salaries of over 49,000 female teachers through the multi-donor Alistair Burt: We have been closely monitoring the Afghanistan Reconstruction Trust Fund. DFID is situation in Tunisia in recent weeks, including the formation supporting WOMANKIND Worldwide to help strengthen of an interim government of national unity. We welcome civil society organisations in Afghanistan which promote the reforms it has so far announced, that is, the legalisation women’s civil, social, economic and political participation. of the political opposition, the liberalisation of the DFID has also helped to establish four female Community media, the release of all political prisoners and the Development Councils (comprising 150 women each) announcement of democratic elections later this year. in Lashkar Gah, Helmand. These councils are enabling We also welcome the announcement of commissions to women to have a greater say in improving local investigate the issues of corruption, human rights, and infrastructure and public services and are also helping political reform. We are following the debate inside women take part in vocational training projects. Tunisia about the composition of this Government but regard this issue primarily as a matter for the Tunisian Departmental Libraries people. Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how many (a) certified and (b) chartered War Crimes: Kosovo Liberation Army librarians his Department has employed in each year since 2000. [37647] Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is on Mr Duncan: The number of certified and chartered investigating claims of war crimes on the part of the librarians employed by the Department for International Kosovo Liberation Army; and if he will make a statement. Development (DFID) in each year since 2000 is as [36454] follows.

Number of certified Number of chartered Mr Lidington: The Government’s policy is that all librarians librarians credible allegations of war crimes should be thoroughly investigated and prosecuted by the appropriate authorities 2000 6 Nil if evidence warrants it. The UK has been a strong 2001 4 Nil supporter of the International Criminal Tribunal for 2002 2 Nil the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) and its investigations to 2003 3 Nil date in relation to crimes allegedly committed by the 2004 3 Nil Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA). I welcome Kosovo 2005 2 Nil Prime Minister Thaci’s public call for the EU’s Rule of 2006 2 Nil Law Mission in Kosovo (EULEX) to carry out a full 2007 2 Nil investigation into the most recent allegations against 2008 1 Nil the KLA. I encourage all relevant organisations and 2009 2 Nil individuals to respond without due delay to the EULEX 2010 1 1 request for evidence in regard to these serious accusations. 811W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 812W

Departmental Marketing DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Alternative Vote: Referendums International Development what the cost to the public purse was of the manufacture and distribution of Department branded drinks coasters in the last financial Meg Munn: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister if he will bring forward proposals to provide for a national year for which figures are available. [37237] recount of ballots in the proposed referendum on the Mr Duncan: During 2009-10 no money was spent alternative vote; and if he will make a statement. centrally on Department for International Development [37184] (DFID) branded drinks coasters. DFID works in over 40 countries worldwide and Mr Harper: The Government do not intend to introduce does not collate figures centrally of sufficient detail to provisions to enable a national recount of ballots. Permitting identify expenditure on items such as drinks coasters. a national recount is not practical because the poll will All country offices are required to seek central approval be administered on a regional basis, with results certified before spending any money on promotional items. No by region. spending on drinks coasters has been approved since Rule 43 of schedule 2 gives power to both Regional April 2009. This system of requiring approval for any Counting Officers and the Chief Counting Officer to expenditure on marketing will stay in place for the issue a direction for a recount of the votes to be conducted foreseeable future. in only one specified circumstance that is, where the officer requesting the recount has reason to doubt the Departmental Regulation accuracy of the count (rule 43(4)). Rule 42(5) and 43(2) requires Counting Officers to Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for provide either their Regional Counting Officer or the International Development what regulations his Chief Counting Officer with two statements: first showing Department has removed since 6 May 2010. [37373] the number of rejected ballots, the second a statement of results setting out the total number of ballot papers Mr Duncan: The Department for International counted and the number of votes cast in favour of each Development (DFID) has not removed any regulations question. From these, the Officer will decide whether since 6 May 2010. the result can be certified or a recount must be conducted. International Labour Organisation The Regional Counting Officer’s assessment is made on an individual basis and may only require a recount where the provisional statements provided to him by the Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for Counting Officer suggest there has been a problem with International Development how much funding his the result in that area. Department has provided to the International Labour Organisation (ILO) in the last four years; and how much funding his Department plans to provide to the Philip Davies: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister how ILO in each year from 2011-12 to 2014-15. [37631] many staff in his office have been engaged in developing policy on the proposed referendum on the alternative Mr Duncan: The Department for International vote; and if he will make a statement. [37607] Development (DFID) provided a total of £17.05 million to the International Labour Organisation (ILO) over Mr Harper: Policy on referendums rests with Elections the past four years under a central partnership agreement. and Democracy Division in the Cabinet Office. A team In addition, DFID funded ILO projects and programmes of six officials within that Division is responsible for at a country level. Financial information on these country policy on referendums, political parties and party funding. level programmes cannot be provided without incurring Different members of the team have had involvement at disproportionate cost. various points in work on the Parliamentary Voting DFID is reviewing funding to all multilateral agencies System and Constituencies Bill that makes provision for as part of the Multilateral Aid Review. A decision on the referendum on the voting system for the House of funding for the ILO will be made when the review Commons. In addition, other officials within the Division concludes at the end of February 2011. working on the conduct of elections have been engaged on the Bill. Given the range of responsibilities within United Nations Convention Against Corruption the relevant team and wider Division, it is not possible to quantify exactly how much time officials have spent Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for developing policy for the voting systems referendum. In International Development when he expects to receive addition to the officials developing policy referendums, the final pilot report of the UK’s implementation of special advisers to the Deputy Prime Minister provide the United Nations Convention Against Corruption. advice across the range of his responsibilities. [37792] Philip Davies: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister how Mr Duncan: The Government have just agreed the much has been spent from the public purse on preparations final pilot review report with our reviewers from Austria for the proposed referendum on the alternative vote to and Greece. The report will be published shortly via the date; what budget has been established for political Department for International Development’s (DFID’s) strategy in relation to the referendum; and if he will website. make a statement. [37608] 813W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 814W

Mr Harper: No additional expenditure on policy County Totals 2009-10 (£) preparations for the proposed referendum on the voting system for UK parliamentary elections over and above Devon 17,003.33 the usual running costs of Elections and Democracy Dorset1 50,574.00 Division and the costs of legal and parliamentary drafting Durham1 41,087.13 resource. No specific budget has been allocated to the East Riding of Yorkshire1 37,729.00 policy development of the referendum within that Division. East Sussex 6,690.24 Preparations for the conduct of the poll are undertaken Essex 3,882.95 by the Electoral Commission, funded through the Speaker’s Gloucestershire 14,475.92 Committee, and with local authorities who will be Greater London1 142,126.00 reimbursed from the Consolidated Fund as is standard Greater Manchester1 123,865.00 practice for UK-wide elections. Hampshire 17,080.96 The Deputy Prime Minister does not have a political Herefordshire 7,163.47 strategy team or budget reserved for such a team. Hertfordshire 6,338.90 Special advisers to the Deputy Prime Minister provide Isle of Wight 13,917.42 advice across the range of his responsibilities and details Kent 11,769.30 of their salaries can be found at: Lancashire 8,820.77 www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk Leicestershire 11,730.00 Lincolnshire 9,879.36 Lord-Lieutenants Merseyside 109,543.00 1 Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Norfolk 2,093.87 1 what the cost to the public purse was of each lord North Yorkshire 11,275.40 lieutenancy in England in 2009-10; and what the estimated Northamptonshire 7,944.60 such costs are for (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12. [37362] Northumberland 6,485.32 Nottinghamshire 3,844.60 Mr Harper: The Lord Lieutenancies of England are Oxfordshire 8,672.14 only partly funded by the public purse. The 11 Metropolitan Rutland 6,116.32 Lieutenancies in England submit bids each year for a Shropshire 0.00 fixed amount of funding on the basis of an annual Somerset 3,860.93 budget negotiated in advance between the Lieutenancy South Yorkshire1 63,406.00 and the Cabinet Office. The 36 Shire Lieutenancies, Staffordshire 12,830.30 however, are entitled to submit claims forms for certain Suffolk 3,729.15 costs to the Cabinet Office in order to be reimbursed for Surrey 5,931.06 some of their duties. Tyne and Wear1 99,229.00 Due to the voluntary nature of the role, the expenses Warwickshire 2,510.80 system for Lord-Lieutenants is not a public payment; it West Midlands1 129,910.00 only serves to reimburse a small amount of the costs West Sussex 5,469.84 associated with performing the functions of the Lord- West Yorkshire1 110,447.00 Lieutenant. There are limits to the amounts which can Wiltshire 5,705.38 be claimed for certain areas of expenditure, such as secretarial costs and car hire and driver costs. Worcestershire 4,626.22 Total 1,212,276.18 The payments made in 2009-10 are shown in the 1 Metropolitan Lieutenancies. table, with the Metropolitan Lieutenancies indicated. We do not have estimated costs for future claims. The specific role and functions performed by each Lord- Lieutenant vary widely depending on the Lieutenancy CABINET OFFICE itself, the geography (i.e. physical size), population density, Cancer number of Royal visits, Lieutenancy engagements and other factors, and simple comparisons between the Mr Crausby: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet figures claimed by different Lieutenancies provide an Office (1) how many men were diagnosed with prostate inaccurate picture. cancer in each of the last 10 years; [37250] In addition to these figures attributable to each (2) how many women were diagnosed with (a) breast Lieutenancy, a cost of £660.22 was incurred for the cancer and (b) ovarian cancer in each of the last 10 repair of Lord-Lieutenants uniforms in 2009-10. years. [37251] County Totals 2009-10 (£) Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Bedfordshire 3,145.15 asked the Authority to reply. Berkshire 2,341.30 Bristol1 39,000.00 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2011: Buckinghamshire 6,053.25 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent questions. Cambridgeshire 6,825.96 The latest available figures for newly diagnosed cases of cancer Cheshire 5,971.46 (incidence) are for the year 2008. Please note that these numbers Cornwall 9,750.71 may not be the same as the number of people diagnosed with Cumbria 3,840.99 cancer, because one person may be diagnosed with more than one Derbyshire 7,582.68 cancer. 815W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 816W

Table 1 provides the number of newly diagnosed cases of (a) Hospitals: Mortality Rates female breast cancer, (b) ovarian cancer and (c) prostate cancer, in England, in each year from 1999 to 2008. Ian Lavery: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office The latest national and regional statistics on cancer incidence what the (a) mortality rate in hospitals in the Northumbria published by ONS are available on the National Statistics website at: Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust and (b) the average mortality rate in hospitals in England was in each of the http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/ [36689] Product.asp?vlnk=8843&Pos=3&ColRank=1&Rank=160 last three years. Table 1: Registrations of newly diagnosed cases of female breast 1 2 3 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the cancer, ovarian cancer and prostate cancer, England, 1999 to 2008 responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Registrations asked the authority to reply. Breast Ovarian Prostate Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2011: 1999 35,511 5,650 22,387 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I 2000 34,843 5,637 24,593 have been asked to reply to your recent question asking what the 2001 35,606 5,936 28,015 (a) mortality rate in hospitals in the Northumbria Healthcare 2002 35,434 5,746 28,246 NHS Foundation Trust and (b) the average mortality rate in hospitals in England was in each of the last three years. (36689) 2003 37,646 5,796 28,503 2004 37,915 5,565 30,975 It is not possible to provide mortality rates for hospitals within an NHS Trust as the information collected at death registration 2005 38,859 5,628 30,053 does not distinguish between the organisations managerially 2006 38,909 5,609 31,476 responsible for the patient’s care. Although the name and address 2007 38,596 5,548 31,236 of the hospital where the death occurred is recorded at registration 2008 39,681 5,092 30,893 the services provide at a single hospital site may be managed by 1 Around 99% of breast cancers cases are in women. several NHS Trusts or private contractors. 2 Cancer diagnoses were defined using the International Classification Further it is not possible for ONS to calculate mortality rates of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10) codes C50 (breast cancer), C56 for patients within individual hospitals or groups of hospitals, as (ovarian cancer) and C61 (prostate cancer). there are no readily available data for the denominator populations. 3 Newly diagnosed cases registered in each calendar year. Politics and Government: Public Participation Economic Situation: Derby Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what assessment he has made of trends in the Margaret Beckett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet public’s involvement in the political process in the last Office what the gross value added was of the economy 30 years. [35804] of the City of Derby was in each of the last 10 years. [37300] Mr Harper: The Government, in partnership with the House of Commons, co-funds the Hansard Society’s Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the annual Audit of Political Engagement. The Seventh responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Audit found a mixed picture; for example, public asked the authority to reply. participation in fundraising and voluntary work is on the rise. 27% of the public report helping with a fundraising Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2011: drive, an increase of 7% since the previous year’s Audit. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I However, the Audit showed that the MPs’ expenses have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking for the gross value added (GVA) of the City of Derby for scandal had affected the public’s satisfaction with and each of the last ten years (37300). perception of MPs and the Westminster Parliament. There had also been a big decline since the first Audit in The Office for National Statistics publishes regional GVA for Derby Unitary Authority up to 2008. Data for 2009 will be 2004 in the perceived impact of the Westminster Parliament published in December 2011. on people’s lives, compared to other institutions. The most recent estimates of GVA for Derby are: Many of the issues raised in the Audit are the subject of the Government’s programme of political and Total gross value added constitutional reform. (£ million) Solvents: Misuse 1999 3,900 2000 4,119 Mark Tami: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 2001 4,335 Office how many fatalities resulting from the misuse of 2002 4,475 solvents there were among people aged (a) under 18, 2003 4,629 (b) 18 to 34, (c) 35 to 49 and (d) 50 or more years old 2004 4,787 in each of the last five years. [38073] 2005 4,962 2006 5,203 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the 2007 5,436 responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have 2008 5,494 asked the authority to reply. Source: Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated February 2011: Table 3.1, Regional GVA, ONS, available on the National Statistics website at: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_economy/ have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking GVA_NUTS3.xls how many fatalities resulting from the misuse of solvents there 817W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 818W were among people aged (a) under 18, (b) 18 to 34, (c) 35 to 49 Departmental Libraries and (d) 50 or more years old in each of the last five years. (38073) The table attached provides the number of deaths where the Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, underlying cause was drug poisoning and a volatile substance was mentioned anywhere on the death certificate for persons aged (a) Olympics, Media and Sport how many (a) certified under 18, (b) 18 to 34, (c) 35 to 49 and (d) 50 years or over, in and (b) chartered librarians his Department has England and Wales, from 2005 to 2009 (the latest year available). employed in each year since 2000. [37651] ONS reports annually on deaths relating to drug poisoning in England and Wales. For each death, every substance noted on the John Penrose: At present the Department does not death certificate or mentioned by the coroner is recorded. It is systematically store this information, although recent important to note that the figures presented are not the total IT upgrades should enable us to do so in the future. number of deaths involving volatile substances as (i) the underlying Currently there is no requirement to hold information cause must be within the ONS definition of drug poisoning and relating to staff qualifications or expertise on their (ii) the volatile substance may not be recorded by the coroner on the death certificate. personal files unless the member of staff has been recruited into a specialist position. Some staff files will As volatile substance abuse is known to be under-reported in official statistics based on death registration data, a project called contain this information, but to extract the information the ‘National Programme for Substance Abuse Deaths’ (NPSAD) manually would incur disproportionate cost. is funded by the Department of Health to measure trends in UK deaths associated with abuse of volatile substances, including Departmental Marketing solvents. The latest report from NPSAD on deaths associated with the abuse of volatile substances is available at: www.vsareport.org Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what the cost to the public Table 1. Number of deaths attributed to drug poisoning where a purse was of the manufacture and distribution of volatile substance was mentioned on the death certificate, by age group, England and Wales, 2005 to 20091,2,3 Department-branded drinks coasters in the last financial Deaths (persons) year for which figures are available. [37246] 50 and Year Under 18 18-34 35-49 over John Penrose: Nil.

2005 9 12 3 4 2006 1 13 5 1 Digital Broadcasting 2007 3 11 7 2 2008 1 14 11 4 Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 2009 4 17 9 10 Olympics, Media and Sport if he will assess the preparedness 1 Cause of death was defined using the International Classification of of households in the London borough of Bexley for Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). Deaths were included where the digital switchover. [37465] underlying cause was due to drug poisoning (shown in the following box) and where a volatile substance was mentioned on the death Mr Vaizey: The Government do not collect statistics certificate. 2 Figures for England and Wales include deaths of non-residents. based on local authority areas. According to Digital 3 Figures are for deaths registered in each calendar year. UK, by November 2010, 81% of households in the London ITV region had converted their primary sets to ICD-10 Description digital television, and 79% are aware of switchover. F11-F16, F18-F19 Mental and behavioural disorders due to drug Switchover will happen in London in 2012. Digital use (excluding alcohol and tobacco) UK is responsible for informing viewers about this, X40-X44 Accidental poisoning by drugs, medicaments including sending information leaflets to every home, and biological substances advertising, roadshows and onscreen captions broadcast X60-X64 Intentional self-poisoning by drugs, medicaments to analogue homes during the six months before a and biological substances switchover. X85 Assault by drugs, medicaments and biological substances The Digital Switchover Help Scheme offers those Y10-Y14 Poisoning by drugs, medicaments and biological aged 75 or over, disabled, registered blind or partially substances, undetermined intent sighted, and anyone who is normally resident in a care home practical help to make the switch to digital television.

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Holiday Accommodation

Copyright: Internet Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what discussions he has Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for had with representatives of consumer organisations on Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when he expects proposed changes to quality assurance assessments of Ofcom to publish its code of practice on reductions in holiday accommodation under the Development of online infringement of copyright. [37714] Tourism Act 1969; [37082] Mr Jeremy Hunt [holding answer 1 February 2011]: (2) what discussions he has had with the Secretary of Publication of the code of practice on reductions in State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on the online infringement of copyright is a matter for Ofcom. future development and assessment of sustainable tourism Under the Digital Economy Act the deadline for the initiatives following proposed changes to quality assessment code to come into force has been extended to 31 March schemes operated under the Development of Tourism 2011. Act 1969; [37083] 819W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 820W

(3) what procedures he envisages to protect the interest methodology and assumptions of the submission of of persons with disabilities in securing access to accurate Government-appointed members of the Horserace Betting information on the recording and assessment of amenities Levy Board; [37604] and adaptations to holiday accommodation designed to (2) what evidence-based assessment the Government- facilitate use by disabled people following the proposed appointed members of the Horserace Betting Levy changes to quality assessment conducted under the Board have made of the financial needs of the horse Development of Tourism Act 1969; and if he will make racing industry. [37605] a statement. [37087] Hugh Robertson: I have no such plans. In their report John Penrose: The Development of Tourism Act to me of 30 November 2010, the members of the 1969 established the British Tourism Authority and Horserace Betting Levy Board set out the basis of their Tourist Boards for England, Scotland and Wales with assessment of the financial needs of the horse racing the responsibility for promoting the development of industry. tourism to and within Great Britain. The quality assessment schemes help VisitEngland meet these responsibilities but their provision or promotion is not a statutory duty. Industrial Health and Safety In developing a tourism strategy, we are considering the need for a better balance between star-rating schemes Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, and customer feedback websites, so customers can make Olympics, Media and Sport what progress his Department a better and more informed choice. We are not considering has made in reviewing the health and safety regulations abolishing the schemes, but rather passing them over to for which it is responsible since his appointment. [36978] be run by the industry itself instead. Whatever decision is taken on rating schemes, John Penrose: The Department is currently considering VisitEngland will continue to support, identify and how best to reform the regulation of entertainment share advice with English tourism firms and destinations under the Licensing Act 2003 while ensuring that adequate on sustainability and accessibility. There is already a protection is in place in relation to public safety and the wealth of information on VisitEngland’s website to other licensing objectives. The Department also has help businesses develop a sustainability programme and responsibility for safety at sports grounds and, while we to provide detailed information for disabled tourists. have no plans to change the regulatory regime, we have Tourism is a devolved matter. The operation of quality sought views from football authorities about the current assessment schemes in Scotland is a matter for the policy for all seater stadia in the top two divisions in Scottish Government. England and Wales. In addition, officials are working with the Health and Safety Executive on the Government’s plans to reform the way in which adventure activity Holidays providers are regulated. Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Libraries: Postgraduate Education Olympics, Media and Sport if he will estimate how many UK citizens have taken a holiday within the UK in each of the last five years for which figures are Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, available. [36915] Olympics, Media and Sport if he will assess the career prospects of students completing (a) undergraduate John Penrose: The following table shows the total and (b) postgraduate courses in librarianship in each number of domestic overnight trips made in the UK by of the next five years. [37638] UK residents between 2006 and 2009. Mr Vaizey: The Department does not hold statistics Trips (million) about the number of students graduating or predicted 2006 2007 2008 2009 to graduate from librarianship courses each year or Base: All UK trips 126.29 123.46 117.71 126.01 whether they are recruited into public libraries, academic libraries, business or civil sector libraries, or other industries. Pure holidays (not 53.26 53.72 51.96 60.66 including visiting friends and family) Music: Licensing All holidays (including 79.21 76.83 75.43 84.32 visiting friends and family) Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many live VisitEngland have advised that the survey analyses music licences were issued to premises with a capacity data on trips rather than people. The latest full year of under (a) 100 persons and (b) 200 persons in (i) data available are 2009, and due to a methodology England, (ii) Yorkshire and (iii) Leeds in each year change midway through 2005, VisitEngland can supply since 2005. [37572] data only for the years provided in the table. John Penrose: The Department for Culture, Media Horserace Betting Levy Board and Sport does not collate data specifically on premises licence applications for the provision of live music, and Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, does not collate data by premises size. This is because Olympics, Media and Sport (1) if he will commission an the Licensing Act 2003 defines activities, not premises independent assessment and external audit of the type. 821W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 822W

Tourism John Penrose: The Department, in conjunction with VisitEngland, regularly assess the economic impact of tourism. Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what proportion Based on the most recent data available, and as of the tourism marketing fund announced in August shown in the table, domestic tourism expenditure in 2010 will be spent in East Anglia; [37118] seaside towns from May 2010 to September 2010 saw an overall decrease compared with the corresponding months (2) whether people working in the tourism industry in 2009. Similarly, domestic tourism expenditure in in East Anglia will have input into the use of the large towns and cities saw a decrease for four of the tourism marketing fund announced in August 2010. corresponding months in 2009; however there were [37119] increases for August and September.

John Penrose: The fund, referred to by the Prime Percentage Minister in August 2010, will be used to support an 2010 overseas tourism marketing and public relations campaign May June July August September October to promote Britain, taking advantage of the unique opportunities afforded by the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Seaside -17.3 -18.8 -14.9 -17.5 -1.1 9.7 Large city/ -5.5 -24.4 -8.4 2.5 18.4 -3.4 games and other major events, such as Her Majesty’s large town diamond jubilee. Expenditure will therefore primarily take place abroad. Tourism businesses in all parts of the 2009 was of course a particularly strong year for United Kingdom, including East Anglia, will benefit domestic tourism, and both 2010 and 2009 represent from the one million additional overseas visitors per significant improvements on performance in previous year that we expect the campaign to attract. The campaign years. will be co-ordinated by VisitBritain in co-operation with private sector partners who have contributed to the fund. Any of those partners operating in East Anglia will have input into its content and, of course, concerned local members of Parliament can also make NORTHERN IRELAND representations about their constituencies to officials or to me in the usual way. Departmental Libraries

Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what recent assessment Ireland how many (a) certified and (b) chartered he has made of progress towards achieving revised librarians his Department has employed in each year common standards of quality assurance by the since 2000. [37664] national tourist boards and the AA; [37637] (2) what recent estimate he has made of the cost to Mr Paterson: We have not employed any certified or the public purse of participation in the programme to chartered librarians during this period. achieve revised common standards of quality assurance by the national tourist boards and the AA to date. [37643] SCOTLAND John Penrose: The tourist boards and the Automobile Association are in regular dialogue regarding the revised Departmental Regulations common standards in the major accommodation sectors (serviced accommodation and self-catering). They plan Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for to introduce the revised standards later this year, with Scotland what regulations his Department has introduced the support of industry. since 6 May 2010. [37365] There will be no additional costs required to achieve revised common standards of quality assurance. Any David Mundell: Since 6 May 2010 the Secretary of changes to the standards are based on both consumer State for Scotland has made or introduced the following and industry research, and businesses are given up to regulations: two years lead-in time to make any changes which may The Scottish Parliament (Constituencies & Regions) Order result from the introduction of revised standards. 2010 (SI 2010/2691) Tourism is a devolved matter. The operation of quality The Scottish Parliament (Elections etc) Order 2010 (SI 2010/2999) assessment schemes in Scotland is a matter for the The Management of Offenders etc. (Scotland) Act 2005 (Disclosure Scottish Government. of Information) Order 2010 The Scottish Parliament (Disqualification) Order 2010 Tourism: Coastal Areas The Protection of Vulnerable Groups (Scotland) Act 2007 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2010 The Marine (Scotland) Act 2010 (Consequential Provisions) Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Order 2010 Olympics, Media and Sport if he will assess whether there has been a change in the economic state of the Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for tourism industry in (a) seaside towns and (b) cities Scotland what regulations his Department has removed since May 2010. [36917] since 6 May 2010. [37371] 823W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 824W

David Mundell: Since 6 May 2010 the Secretary of Audit Commission: Official Hospitality State for Scotland has by order revoked the following regulations: Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities The Scottish Parliament (Elections etc) Order 2007; and Local Government how much the Audit Commission The Scottish Parliament (Elections etc) (Amendment) Order spent on (a) functions and (b) hotel room hire at the 2007; City Inn, Westminster in the last 12 months. [37550] The Scottish Parliament (Elections etc) (Amendment) Order 2008; Robert Neill: This is an operational matter for the The Scottish Parliament (Elections etc) (Amendment) Order Audit Commission and I have asked the chief executive 2009; of the Audit Commission to write to my hon. Friend Paragraphs 15 and 44 of Schedule 4 to the Health Care and direct. Associated Professions (Miscellaneous Amendments and Practitioner Letter from Eugene Sullivan, dated 2 February 2010: Psychologists) Order 2009 Your Parliamentary Question has been passed to me to reply. The Scottish Parliament (Disqualification) Order 2007 The Commission has spent £10,726.87 on Commission activities at the City Inn in the last 12 months. The Commission has not used the City Inn for any such activities since June 2010. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT We have spent £63,540.38 on overnight accommodation in the last 12 months. This includes £18,055.36 on accommodation for Audit Commission: Conferences the Chief Executive. The Chief Executive is required to be in London and he stays overnight in London on average 3 nights per week. Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities £4,142 was spent on Commissioner accommodation. and Local Government what the (a) purpose and Commissioners are required to attend Board meetings in London (b) date was of the Audit Commission’s internal and overnight accommodation is provided for those Commissioners communications conference hosted at the Thistle Hotel who live outside a commutable distance. Marble Arch, paid for in August 2010; and what the The remaining £41,342.52 was accommodation for Audit total cost of the conference was to the public purse. Commission staff from around the country who are required to [37535] stay in London overnight when attending our London office. Accommodation at the City Inn was purchased at the government Robert Neill: This is an operational matter for the rate. Audit Commission and I have asked the chief executive of the Audit Commission to write to my hon. Friend Departmental Internet direct. Letter from Eugene Sullivan, dated 2 February 2011: Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer to the Your Parliamentary Question has been passed to me to reply. hon. Member for West Bromwich East of 15 July 2009, This was a non refundable deposit for a scheduled meeting of Official Report, column 485W,on departmental internet, the Audit Commission’s top 60 managers on 22 September 2010. whether he plans to upgrade his Department’s web An external venue was booked as the Commission does not have an internal meeting room that can hold this number of people. browsers from Internet Explorer 6. [37256] In light of the coalition government’s requirement for public bodies to make efficiencies the Commission decided to cancel this Robert Neill: We are presently engaged in upgrading event, as additional costs would have been incurred. from Internet Explorer 6 to Internet Explorer 8. The The deposit of £1,194.89 was the only money spent on this Department’s use of web browsers remains under review, event. reflecting new technology and the business costs and benefits. Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what the purpose was of the Departments: Credit Cards expenditure of £138,824 by the Audit Commission in July 2010 on a conference at the Hilton Birmingham Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Metropole. [37537] and Local Government how much Ministers in his Department and their private offices spent on their Robert Neill: This is an operational matter for the corporate credit card facility in 2009-10. [36891] Audit Commission and I have asked the chief executive of the Audit Commission to write to my hon. Friend Robert Neill: Ministers in this Department are not direct. issued with credit cards. The amount spent in 2009-10 Letter from Eugene Sullivan, dated 2 February 2011: on credit cards held by their private offices was £3,146. Your Parliamentary Question has been passed to me to reply. Gardens: Property Development This was an initial non refundable payment for the Commission’s annual two-day managers’ conference, which was due to take place on 30 November and 1 December 2010. The event was for Alec Shelbrooke: To ask the Secretary of State for 400 managers. Communities and Local Government what monitoring Like many other organisations that have staff spread across arrangements are in place concerning the construction the country, we have used an annual event to communicate with of dwellings on garden land. [37479] our managers and explain strategy for the year ahead. In light of the coalition government’s requirement for public Greg Clark: Further to the new Government’s changes bodies to make efficiencies the Commission decided to cancel this to planning guidance to give councils more powers to event, to avoid the balance of the costs being incurred. tackle unwanted garden grabbing, my Department is 825W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 826W working with Ordnance Survey (the data provider) to Solar Power: Brownfield Sites develop a new land use category ‘residential gardens’ to enable numbers of dwellings built in this category to be Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State recorded. for Communities and Local Government if he will take steps to confine the construction of solar parks to Heathrow Airport brownfield sites. [37468]

Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: Current planning policy assumes that Communities and Local Government whether any renewable energy developments should be capable of planning application for a third runway at Heathrow being accommodated throughout England in locations would be determined by the Major Infrastructure where the technology is viable and environmental, economic, and social impacts can be addressed satisfactorily. We Planning Unit of the Planning Inspectorate. [37555] have invited organisations and individuals to offer their suggestions on what priorities and policies we might Robert Neill: No, subject to the passage of the Localism adopt in the new National Planning Policy Framework. Bill and the abolition of the Infrastructure Planning Commission, any (theoretical) application for a third runway at Heathrow airport would be examined by the Major Infrastructure Planning Unit but would be decided BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS by the Secretary of State for Transport. Adult Learning Grant Home Information Packs Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills which organisation will Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities be responsible for administration of the Adult Learning and Local Government what recent assessment his Grant in future; whether the grant will continue to be Department has made of the effects on the housing paid after September 2011; and if he will make a market of the ending of home information packs; and if statement. [37177] he will make a statement. [32123] Mr Hayes: Paragraph 44 of ‘Investing in Skills for Andrew Stunell: No such assessment has been made. Sustainable Growth’ sets out the Government’s plans for adult learner support funds. The administration of Housing: Halifax those funds will be considered as the plans are developed. Banks: Loans Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what funds his Alec Shelbrooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Department has provided for the purpose of supporting Business, Innovation and Skills if he will ask the Office private sector spending on housing in Halifax in the last of Fair Trading to initiate an inquiry into the practice five years. [37351] of banks charging interest on loans during the period in which payments on such loans are being processed Grant Shapps: The Kickstart programme (2009-10 to by the bank and where the account from which the 2010-11), managed by the Homes and Communities payment has been made is with the same bank. [37473] Agency, was targeted at private sector developers with the aim of unlocking the construction of high quality Mr Davey: The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) is not mixed tenure housing developments. £0.7 million was aware of having received complaints in respect of this allocated from this programme to support the unlocking particular practice. However, it considers that no further of 60 homes in Calderdale. The Homes and Communities interest should be charged on loans once it is apparent Agency does not hold information on a constituency to the lender that due repayment has been made. While basis and so my Department is unable to provide a it is accepted that banks need time to process payments, breakdown of how this allocation would have supported the OFT would expect the processing time to be house building in the Halifax area. appropriately short in particular where the payment is being made from an account held with the same lender. The New Homes Bonus, moving forward, will support The OFT would expect lenders to be transparent with all types of housing increases across Calderdale. borrowers about the processing time for repayments of loans in order that borrowers can take steps to submit Localism Bill repayment in sufficient time to avoid the imposition of further interest or charges. Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Fair Trading Act 1973 Communities and Local Government when he plans to publish the impact assessment for part 2 of the Natascha Engel: To ask the Secretary of State for Localism Bill; and if he will make a statement. [36537] Business, Innovation and Skills what legislative amendments by (a) Act or (b) statutory instrument Greg Clark: The impact assessment for part 2 of the have amended the definition or meaning in law of the Localism Bill is available on the DCLG website at: term ‘participant’ contained in section 118(1)(b) of the http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ Fair Trading Act 1973; what definition of the term his localgovernment/localismeufines Department uses in relation to that Act; what changes 827W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 828W he has identified to that definition between the date of Mr Davey: The local enterprise partnership proposal enactment of the 1973 Act and the present definition; covering Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire was given and if he will make a statement. [37496] the go-ahead by the Government on 28 October 2010 and invited to put their governance arrangements in Mr Davey: Section 118(1)(b) of the Fair Trading Act place. The Government are awaiting notification that does not contain the term “participant”. The following this work has been done, at which point they will therefore assumes the reference in the question to be a formally recognise the partnership. Government officials reference to the term “participants” in section 118(1)(a) continue to work with the partnership as they take this of the Act as defined in section 118(8). work forward. There have been no legislative amendments to the definition of the term “participant” in section 118(8) of Manufacturing Industries: EC Countries the Fair Trading Act 1973 which is the definition this Department uses in relation to the relevant sections of Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for the Act. There have been no other changes to that Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has made an definition. assessment of the effect on the competitiveness of British manufacturing companies of short-time working Furs: Labelling arrangements in other EU countries. [37187]

Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Davey: Short-time working arrangements are a Innovation and Skills if he will assess the merits of matter for individual companies. Some EU Governments, requiring clothing made from or trimmed with real fur but not the UK, support such arrangements through to be labelled as such; and if he will make a statement. their labour market and social security policies and [37644] these have not been considered damaging to UK competitiveness. Also, some exceptional measures were Mr Davey: No. The Consumer Protection from Unfair introduced during the recession. It is important that Trading Regulations (CPRs) already require traders to these exceptional policies do not become permanent. disclose whether clothing is made from or trimmed with real fur where this is material information which the average consumer needs to make an informed purchasing Manufacturing Industries: Immigration Rules decision. A national requirement for fur products to be labelled Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, would be at significant risk of breaching full harmonisation Innovation and Skills what plans he has to (a) monitor in the EU Unfair Commercial Practices Directive 2005 and (b) review the effect on manufacturing industry of (UCPD) which the CPRs implement. This is because it the changes to immigration rules to take effect in April would impose more prescriptive requirements than those 2011. [37092] in the directive which requires a case-by-case assessment of whether this proposed labelling is material information Mr Prisk: The Government consulted widely with all which the average consumer needs, according to the sectors of industry during the development of the policy context, to make an informed choice. to limit non-EU economic migration. We will continue to monitor and review the effect of changes to the Where it is material information it would need to be migration system on businesses, including in the given to consumers in good time before they make their manufacturing sector. purchasing decision. Insolvency: Regulation Money Lenders: Crime

Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation and Skills whether he has plans to align Business, Innovation and Skills what regulations his regulation of debt management providers with that of Department has put in place to combat unscrupulous other professionals working in the insolvency sector. money lenders in the last 13 years; and what plans he [37549] has for further such measures in the next five years. [37510] Mr Davey: While there are no current plans to align regulation in the way you suggest, The Office of Fair Mr Davey: The Consumer Credit Act 1974 requires Trading continues to work within the current licensing providers of consumer credit to apply to The Office of regime and you will be aware that as a result a number Fair Trading (OFT) for a license. The legislation was of debt management providers are facing licensing action. reformed by the Consumer Credit Act 2006. This included Our recent call for evidence, which looked at the requirements for the OFT to adopt a more targeted, whole personal insolvency regime, including debt risk based, approach to consumer credit licensing, focusing management, closed recently and the Government response on the areas of highest risk to consumers. and proposals will be published shortly. The Government are now considering further reforms to the Consumer Credit regime as part of the wider Local Enterprise Partnerships: Midlands changes proposed to the institutional framework for financial regulation. A consultation document published Margaret Beckett: To ask the Secretary of State for on 21 December 2010 is considering the merits of Business, Innovation and Skills what progress has been transferring responsibility for consumer credit from the made in establishing a local enterprise partnership for OFT to the new Consumer Protection and Markets Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. [37299] Authority, thereby bringing consumer credit into the 829W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 830W same regulatory regime as other retail financial services taken 37 licensing actions, issued notices to 69 companies/ and with a view to delivering stronger protections for traders, sent 185 warning letters and 951 advisory letters. consumers. The OFT is also in the process of updating its Debt Since 2004, the Department for Business, Innovation Management Guidance to take explicit account of new and Skills has provided funding of more than £21 million and emerging unfair business practices, and will work to fund specialist regional teams across the country to with the two main trade bodies, the Debt Managers tackle the problem of those lenders who operate without Standards Association (DEMSA) and the Debt Resolution a license. To date, the teams have helped more than Forum (DRF) to support their initiatives to introduce 16,000 victims, written off £37 million of illegal debt higher standards in the industry. and secured over 180 convictions with prison sentences totalling 70 years. Office of Fair Trading: Inspections Office of Fair Trading Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many on-site compliance Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, visits have been carried out by the Office of Fair Trading Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of in relation to compliance with its Debt Management the effectiveness of the Office of Fair Trading in regulating Guidance since September 2010. [37541] businesses providing debt management plans. [37548]

Mr Davey: Since being given new powers in 2008, The Mr Davey: Since September 2010 The Office of Fair Office of Fair Trading (OFT) has focused attention on Trading (OFT) has completed or is in the process of the debt management industry. It has set up a dedicated arranging for Local Authority Trading Standards Services team to investigate the debt management market, carried (LATSS) officers to visit and check the competence and out a comprehensive review of compliance in the industry compliance of a further 30 new applicants. This rolling and taken significant enforcement actions targeting the programme of compliance visits is a key element of the worst companies and behaviours. OFT’s action plan for addressing problems identified in its compliance review findings report, published in The key findings to emerge from the debt management September 2010, and forms part of the OFT’s wider compliance review, which included onsite compliance strategy for pro-actively monitoring compliance with its visits by Trading Standards Officers, a website sweep debt management guidance. and a mystery shopping exercise, were that: misleading advertising is the most significant area of non- compliance, in particular failing to disclose a fee is retained by the business and misrepresenting debt management services as being free when they are not WORK AND PENSIONS frontline advisers working for debt management companies are lacking in competence and are providing poor advice based Departmental Manpower on inadequate information there is low industry awareness of the Financial Ombudsman Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Service (FOS) rules for resolving consumer complaints. Work and Pensions if he will assess the likely effects on The OFT’s compliance report set out a detailed action his Department’s staffing levels in Livingston constituency plan to improve standards across the industry, focusing (a) in each local office and (b) by the service provided on robust enforcement action against licensees that fail, of the implementation of the outcomes of the or refuse, to change advertising and/or behaviour. comprehensive spending review. [36878] The OFT published its compliance report in September 2010 and at the same time announced that it had Chris Grayling: As the Department for Work and warned 129 firms that they needed to submit evidence Pensions has two Jobcentre Plus Offices in the Livingston demonstrating compliance or face licensing action. As a constituency and the administration of Jobcentre Plus follow up to this announcement, on 28 January 2011 the is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, OFT confirmed that 35 debt firms had surrendered Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. their licences, eight faced action to revoke their licences, Member with the information requested. seven were under further investigation and 79 had submitted Letter from Darra Singh: evidence, which is now being reviewed. The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question; If action is taken against the additional seven companies the likely effects on (a) his Department’s staffing levels in Livingston and/or some of the 79 firms who submitted evidence constituency for each local office and (b) service provided of the are found to be non-compliant, the OFT will publicise implementation of the outcomes of the Comprehensive Spending the details of this enforcement action at the appropriate Review. This is something which falls within the responsibilities time. delegated to me as Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. As well as taking action as a result of the compliance We are currently finalising national budgets for the year ahead review, the OFT has also taken a number of other and we have not yet worked through the staffing levels to individual Jobcentres. I will write to notify you of our staffing position in the licensing actions in the debt management sector and two Jobcentres in your constituency before the end of the financial has cracked down on look-a-like debt management year. websites posing as charity or official sites, misleading Under the terms of the Spending Review, our funding includes trading names, inappropriate cold calling (working with supporting the Government’s welfare reform agenda, such as the Information Commissioners Office) and has refused Universal Credit. However, the Department also needs to continue to licence companies that cannot demonstrate sufficient making significant efficiencies in its work to meet a 26 per cent competence or experience. Since April 2008, the OFT has reduction in real terms from its core budget. 831W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 832W

For Jobcentre Plus this will mean a significant transformation http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/employment-matters/ of our business, exploiting technology and using the experience of docs/p/11-634-phasing-out-default-retirement-age-impact- our own people to drive out inefficiencies in our processes. assessment.pdf Under the Government’s proposals for ″Get Britain Working″, we do not believe that this will have a damaging effect Jobcentres and community partners will offer personalised advice on the employment of young people in Scotland or and a menu of flexible support options, for example, through elsewhere. It will boost labour supply, which in turn local community Work Clubs, offering Work Experience in local leads to increased economic output, tax revenue and businesses, and ″Work Together″ volunteering options. From summer 2011 we will introduce the Work Programme through profits. Increasing the size of the labour force increases contracted providers. the productive potential of the economy as a whole and therefore provides a general economic benefit. Employment and Support Allowance Housing Benefit: Scotland

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what proportion of those in the Work and Pensions what the average amount of housing work-related activity group of employment and support benefit paid was for each tenure type in (a) the Dumfries allowance he expects to be successful in finding work and Galloway local authority area and (b) Dumfries within one year. [37192] and Galloway constituency in the latest period for which figures are available. [31528] Chris Grayling: The Department does not forecast the number of people who we expect to find work. The Steve Webb: The information is as follows: new Work Programme, in conjunction with support (a) The average amount of housing benefit paid in the Dumfries from Jobcentre Plus, will provide tailored, personalised and Galloway local authority area for each tenure type is as employment support to help maximise the number of follows: customers, including those in the Work-Related Activity Group, who find a job. £

All tenures 61.50 Employment and Support Allowance: Cancer

Tenure type Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Social rented sector 57.37 Work and Pensions for what reason a person receiving Private rented sector 75.26 oral chemotherapy who applies for employment and Notes: support allowance is placed in the work-related activity 1. Recipients are as at second Thursday of the month. group whereas a person receiving non-oral chemotherapy 2. Average awards are shown as pounds per week and rounded to the is placed in the support group; and if he will make a nearest penny. statement. [37107] 3. Tenure type does not include recipients with unknown tenure type. 4. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct from local authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate Chris Grayling: The WCA is a functional assessment, clerical returns. which looks at what someone can do rather than basing 5. The data are available monthly from November 2008 and September entitlement on their diagnosis. However, in recognition 2010 is the latest. of the potentially severe functional limitation caused by Source: types of chemotherapy, these customers can be ‘treated’ Single Housing Benefit Extract 100% individual level data (SHBE), September 2010. as having limited capability for Work-Related Activity (b) The information is not available. even if they do not meet the functional criteria. Chemotherapy can be associated with a range of side At present geographic breakdowns are only available effects varying from mild to severe. The purpose of this for local authorities and regions. However, an exercise is policy is that those experiencing the most severe functional being undertaken to add other geographical areas to the limitations as a result of cancer treatment are automatically data which will include parliamentary constituencies. entitled to enter the Support Group of ESA. We have Industrial Health and Safety asked Professor Harrington, as part of his second annual review of the WCA, to explore whether the current policy best reflects this intent. Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what progress his Department has made on reviewing the (a) employment law and (b) health Employment: Young People and safety regulations for which it is responsible since his appointment. [36971] Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions likely effects of the removal of the default retirement is fully engaged in the Whitehall wide review of employment age on levels of youth employment in Scotland. [36805] and workplace law announced earlier this year. While DWP does not have responsibility for employment laws Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply. we are considering areas of regulation that affect employers In removing the default retirement age (DRA) we are and their employees, area by area, over the long term. removing a regulation which restricts people’s ability to Lord Young’s review of health and safety laws and remain in the labour market. Based on the evidence, the compensation culture, ‘Common Sense, Common including that which is set out in our impact assessment— Safety’, carried out for the Prime Minister, was published available at on 15 October 2010. Actions to implement Lord Young’s 833W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 834W recommendations are being taken forward across The information on jobseeker allowance claimants Government in line with the timetable set out in his also in receipt of housing benefit is not available. report. Information is collected on the number of housing benefit claimants in receipt of a passporting benefit, Insolvency which includes income-based jobseeker’s allowance. However the total number of jobseeker’s allowance claimants receiving housing benefit is not available. Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will estimate the likely number Government office region Caseload of applications for insolvency in (a) Sunderland, (b) the North East and (c) nationally in the next 12 months. North-east 80,900 [37697] North-west 178,900 Yorkshire and the Humber 144,300 Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply. East midlands 96,800 The Insolvency Service only holds statistics for actual West midlands 157,900 insolvency cases. East 108,600 Regional statistics for individual insolvencies are London 216,300 published on the Insolvency Service website: South-east 131,700 South-west 82,000 http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/otherinformation/statistics/ regionalstatisticsmenu.htm Wales 71,200 The figures for the North East, Sunderland and Scotland 135,600 England are reproduced in the following table. United Kingdom 1,462,700 Notes: Total individual insolvencies 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 100. North East Sunderland England 2. United Kingdom figures include Northern Ireland. 3. These figures are published at: 2000 1,413 142 23,861 http://www.nomisweb.co.uk/Default.asp 2001 1,441 154 25,116 Source: NOMIS Claimant Count (Seasonally Adjusted), November 2010 2002 1,563 143 26,125 2003 1,710 191 31,370 Older Workers: Scotland 2004 2,119 221 41,554 2005 2,991 387 61,661 2006 5,358 634 98,239 Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 5,411 682 98,380 Work and Pensions if he will estimate the number of 2008 5,930 729 98,506 workers aged 65 years in (a) Scotland and (b) 2009 7,855 869 124,044 Livingston constituency who are likely to remain in the workforce for an additional year in 2011 following the Figures for corporate insolvencies are only available end of the default retirement age. [37701] for England and Wales as a whole, and are published on the Insolvency Service website: Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply. http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/otherinformation/statistics/ Our impact assessment estimates that around 6,000 insolvency-statistics.htm additional workers are likely to remain in the workforce Forecasts of likely insolvencies are not produced by across the UK in the first year. No separate estimate Government. was made for Scotland. We do not have data from which to produce robust estimates on the proportion However, petitions for the winding up of a company likely to remain in the work force at the sub-regional or partnership or the bankruptcy of an individual are level. The full impact assessment was published on made via the courts and petition statistics are the 13 January and is available at: responsibility of the Ministry of Justice. http://bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/employment-matters/docs/p/ The Ministry of Justice publishes petition statistics 11-634-phasing-out-default-retirement-age-impact- for bankruptcies and compulsory liquidations by region. assessment.pdf The latest statistics are available here: http://www.justice.gov.uk/ Social Security Benefits: Prisoners companywindingupandbankruptcy.htm Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Jobseeker’s Allowance and Pensions what proportion of people claiming (a) jobseeker’s allowance, (b) incapacity benefit and (c) Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for Work income support have a partner in prison. [34908] and Pensions how many people in (a) the UK, (b) each region of England, (c) Scotland and (d) Wales are in Chris Grayling: The requested information is not receipt of jobseeker’s allowance; and how many of available. these people claim housing benefit. [32472] Universal Credit Chris Grayling: The following table provides the number of people in (a) the UK, (b) each region of England, Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for (c) Scotland and (d) Wales who are in receipt of Work and Pensions whether he plans to provide additional jobseeker’s allowance. support to (a) parents of disabled children, (b) children 835W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 836W with a disability, (c) carers and (d) pensioners with (2) what public appointments he has made since his children when determining the entitlement criteria for appointment; and to what payments each person so universal credit. [36653] appointed is entitled; [35428]

Chris Grayling: Universal credit will consist of a Justine Greening: Information on key public basic personal allowance with additional amounts for appointments made since May 2010 is published in disability, caring responsibilities, housing costs and children. individual press releases. Where details of remuneration We are looking at what extra support may be needed are not included in the release, they should be published for disabled people in universal credit. At the same time separately by the relevant body. HM Treasury press we will consider the structure of support for disabled releases are available at: children. http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/newsroom_and_speeches.htm We are reviewing whether changes to carer’s allowance In December 2010 the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be necessary to take account of the introduction of announced the appointment of a lead non-executive universal credit. director to the Treasury Board. The relevant press release, Finally we are considering how best to support pensioners which is on the Cabinet Office website, can be found at with the cost of rent and dependent children and plan the following link. to make some changes to pension credit. These changes http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/news/uk-leaders-appointed- will consolidate support for rent with the help available support-whitehall%E2%80%99s-transformation for other housing costs within pension credit, and add a Information on the gender of those serving on the further element to provide income-related help for boards of public bodies is published annually. Information pensioners with dependent children. for the 2010-11 period will be published in due course. Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what consideration will be given to Double Taxation: Scotland childcare costs in determining entitlement to universal credit. [36655] Katy Clark: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what discussions he has had on the potential for double Chris Grayling: The Government are continuing to taxation to occur as a result of granting greater fiscal work with stakeholders to establish the best approach powers to the Scottish Parliament. [37783] to supporting parents with the costs of childcare in universal credit. We will announce our conclusion in the Danny Alexander: The increased fiscal powers for the coming months. Scottish Government introduced in the Scotland Bill will not increase the potential for double taxation. The Work Capability Assessment Scottish rate of income tax will be payable by those individuals who meet the definition of a Scottish taxpayer. Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for This definition has been designed to leave in place the Work and Pensions what importance will be placed on existing rules and procedures which currently apply to the views of claimants’ GPs in work capability assessments individuals who are tax resident in the UK. for the purposes of the payment of employment and This means that a Scottish taxpayer will continue to support allowance under his proposals for welfare reform. have access to double taxation relief under the UK’s [33972] international taxation agreements in the same way as Chris Grayling: The Department’s decision maker anyone else who is resident in the UK. must consider all the available evidence before making a decision on benefit entitlement. Any information provided Excise Duties: Fuels by a claimant’s GP is therefore fully considered. Mr Carswell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) how much revenue was raised through duties payable TREASURY on fuel in each of the last five years; [37339] (2) what information his Department holds on the Departmental Marketing (a) amount and (b) proportion of revenue from duties on fuel arising from each (i) county council and (ii) Conor Burns: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer metropolitan area. [37340] what the cost to the public purse was of the manufacture and distribution of Department-branded drinks coasters Justine Greening: HM Revenue and Customs routinely in the last financial year for which figures are available. publishes data on fuel duty revenues accruing to the [37241] Exchequer through fuel duty from 1999 to date at: www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=bulloil Justine Greening: No spending was incurred in 2009-10 by the Treasury on Department-branded drinks coasters. The method by which revenue is collected directly from fuel producers does not distinguish between different Departmental Public Appointments fuel consumers or geographic areas.

Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Chancellor of the Graeme Morrice: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer (1) how many (a) women and (b) men have what assessment he has made of the likely effects on been appointed to public duties by his Department small businesses of increases in the rate of fuel duty. since May 2010; [35406] [37619] 837W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 838W

Justine Greening: Small businesses are affected by a privilege and is, accordingly, not required to be disclosed. range of measures to tackle the deficit and support That principle is also recognised in the Freedom of growth including fuel duty and other policy measures. Information Act 2000, where there is a specific exemption The June 2010 Budget set out changes to corporation against disclosure in relation to information that would tax to reduce the small profits rate to 20% from April be covered by legal professional privilege. I do not 2011 and the main rate will reduce from 28% to 24% intend, in the circumstances, to place in the Library any over the course of four financial years. Businesses may legal advice that may have informed Lord Hill’s letter. reclaim VAT and deduct other business costs including fuel costs under existing business tax arrangements. Building Schools for the Future Programme Inflation Dr Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what resources his Department has allocated to responding what assessment he has made of the difference in effects to legal challenges from the local authorities who have of levels of inflation on (a) the elderly and (b) other had their Building Schools for the Future funding age groups. [35564] withdrawn. [35049]

Justine Greening: The Office for National Statistics Mr Gibb [holding answer 24 January 2011]: The (ONS) produces inflation figures by different household Secretary of State is defending this action and has types. The UK’s monetary policy framework gives engaged Treasury Solicitors and leading counsel in the operational responsibility for maintaining price stability normal way. to the independent Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England. However, the Government recognise the pressures that those on fixed incomes, including College of Social Work pensioners, face when prices increase. To help pensioners the Government have restored the Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Education earnings link and given a triple guarantee that the basic which trade unions are involved in discussions on the state pension will increase by the highest of the growth establishment of the College of Social Work. [35707] in average earnings, prices or 2.5%, and is also preserving key benefits and pensions for older people. Tim Loughton: In 2009 the Social Work Task Force Petrol: Prices recommended the establishment of an independent College of Social Work to articulate and promote the interests of good social work. It will give the profession itself Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer strong, independent leadership; a clear voice in public what assessment he has made of the potential relationship debate, policy development and policy delivery; and between the price of petrol in (a) the UK and (b) other strong ownership of professional social work standards. European countries and economic activity and growth in the UK; and if he will make a statement. [37105] The establishment process for the College was guided from January to September 2010 by a development Justine Greening: The sterling oil price has risen 28% group with representation from across the social work over the past year, and the euro area oil price by 35%. sector, including frontline practitioners, employer The Government consider a range of factors when representatives, regulators, educators, work force making their assessment of economic activity and growth organisations and the British Association of Social in the UK and the world economy. Workers, Unison and Aspect. Since September interim The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) is responsible co-chairs and an interim board have been appointed for producing independent economic and fiscal forecasts. who are taking forward this work and have maintained The OBR published its latest economic forecast on links with all parties. 29 November 2010, which can be found online at: http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk Departmental Carbon Emissions The OBR’s forecast for growth in the UK is broadly consistent with the Bank of England and HM Treasury’s latest average of independent forecasts. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what recent steps his Department has taken to reduce its carbon emissions to meet the target of reducing central Government carbon emissions by 10 EDUCATION per cent. by June 2011. [36602] Academies Tim Loughton: The Department for Education has Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for recently completed a number of projects in its HQ Education if he will place in the Library a copy of the buildings to meet the target of reducing central Government legal advice which informed Lord Hill’s letter of 15 carbon emissions by 10% by June 2011. These include December 2010 to head teachers of schools that have building software modifications and installing energy applied to convert to academy status. [35460] saving variable speed drives on pumps, motors and fans. Estate rationalisation in Sheffield has also yielded Mr Gibb: [holding answer 21 January 2011]: It is a significant emission reductions when the Department long established principle of law that legal advice to any relocated to smaller, more efficient accommodation in person, including to Ministers, attracts legal professional June 2010. 839W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 840W

Departmental Official Cars Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how much his Department has spent on redecorating ministerial offices since May 2010. [36045] Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) how many Ministerial cars have been Tim Loughton: There has been no expenditure on used by his Department since May 2010; [35202] redecoration of ministerial offices since May 2010. (2) what the (a) make and (b) model was of each car provided by the Government Car Service for use by his Department since May 2010; and which Minister of Departmental Working Conditions his Department has used each such vehicle. [35203] Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Tim Loughton: Five allocated cars were inherited what his Department’s policy is on (a) the space provided from the previous Administration. Details of (a) make per employee, (b) home working and (c) hot desking; and (b) model are as follows: how many employees it has on average per desk; and how much space on average there is per employee. Number Vehicle make/model [34588]

1 Jaguar XJ TDVi Sovereign (changed to Toyota Avensis Tim Loughton: The Department for Education seeks T4 in July 2010) to comply wherever possible with the guidance issued 3 ToyotaPriusT3 for central Government Departments on the efficient 1 Honda Civic ES Hybrid use of space which provides for a best practice target density of 10 square metres per person or better. However, since 6 September 2010 only the Secretary of State retains an allocated vehicle. The Department has a policy of encouraging flexible working practices and has invested in technology to allow staff to work remotely, including from home, and Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for has plans to improve the quality of this service to allow Education how much his Department has spent on for more effective remote working. services provided by the Government Car Service since May 2010. [35215] The Department is in the process of introducing flexible working practices across its estate. Two of its four office buildings (St Paul’s Place, Sheffield and Tim Loughton: The total invoiced expenditure on the Sanctuary Buildings, London) are already configured Government Car Service for the Department for Education and operating in a flexible working environment and is £180,050 since May 2010. This compares with a cost plans are in place to introduce this policy across the of £447,915 for the same period in 2009-2010. Both other two sites when it becomes cost effective and figures relate to cost incurred from 12 May to 19 appropriate to do so. January for all car services. The Department has on average one employee per desk and is currently achieving on average 14 square Departmental Pay metres per employee. In sites where we have introduced flexible working environments our space utilisation are Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for far better than those sites still operating in traditional Education what information his Department holds on working environments. The Department’s ratio of employee the number of sub-contracted staff servicing his per desk and square metre per person has recently been Department who were not paid at a rate equivalent to adversely affected by headcount reductions, although or above the London living wage in the latest period for the Department has plans in place to improve its efficiency which figures are available. [34821] by property rationalisation and bringing tenants into space recently freed up by these staff reductions. Tim Loughton: All contracted staff working for the Department for Education in London are paid at the Education Maintenance Allowance 2010 level of the London living wage or above of £7.60 per hour. This does not apply to contracted staff working Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education at our regional headquarter offices who are paid at the what estimate he has made of the costs to his Department level of the national minimum wage or above. arising from the reduction in value of Capita’s contract A decision on paying the 2011 level of £7.85 to for education maintenance allowance; and whether his London contracted staff is still to be determined. Department is liable for penalty payments under that contract as a result of the reduction. [33775] Departmental Public Expenditure Mr Gibb [holding answer 25 January 2011]: We are working with the Young People’s Learning Agency, Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for which administers the education maintenance allowance Education how many pieces of artwork his Department scheme on behalf of the Department for Education, to has moved since May 2010. [36043] assess any costs that may arise from the reduction in value of Capita’s contract. Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s Tim Loughton: Since May 2010 three items which chief executive, has responded separately to the hon. were on loan to the Department for Education from the Member for Scunthorpe on the question regarding liability Government Art Collection have been returned to the for penalty payments, and a copy has been placed in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. House Libraries. 841W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 842W

Letter from Peter Lauener, dated 13 January 2011: Take-up (as at 31 December I am writing in response to your Parliamentary Question PQ Local authority 2010) 33775. The Department of Education has responded to you regarding York 1,540 the first part of your question. I have been asked to provide a North Yorkshire 5,262 reply to the latter part of your question regarding our liability to penalty payments as a result of the reduction to the value of the EMA take-up data showing the number of young people who Capita contract. have received one or more EMA payments during 2004/05, 2005/06, 2006/07, 2007/08, 2008/09 and 2009/10 is available on the YPLA I can confirm that we are not liable to penalty payments under website, at the following address: this contract as a result of the reduction. http://ema.ypla.gov.uk/resources/research/takeup/ Education Maintenance Allowance: Halifax Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what the total monetary value of education maintenance if he will estimate the number of people in Halifax allowance paid in each (a) unitary authority and (b) constituency who received education maintenance allowance district council area in York and North Yorkshire was in 2010. [35955] in each year since its inception. [36567]

Mr Gibb: This is a matter for the Young People’s Mr Gibb: This is a matter for the Young People’s Learning Agency (YPLA) who operate the education Learning Agency (YPLA) who operate the education maintenance allowance for the Department for Education. maintenance allowance for the Department for Education. Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s chief executive, has written Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s chief executive, has written to the hon. Member for Halifax with the information to the hon. Member with the information requested and requested and a copy of his reply has been placed in the a copy of his reply has been placed in the House House Libraries. Libraries. Letter from Peter Lauener, dated 25 January 2011: Letter from Peter Lauener, dated 27 January 2011: I am writing in response to your Parliamentary Question PQ I am writing in response to your Parliamentary Question PQ 35955 that asked: 36567. “How many people in Halifax constituency are estimated to Information on the number of young people who have received have received education maintenance allowance in 2010.” Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA) is available for upper Information on the number of young people who have received tier local authorities but not at district council level. Local authority Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA) is available at local expenditure figures are available from the start of the 2009/10 authority level, but not at constituency level. EMA take-up is academic year. defined as young people who have received one or more EMA payments in the academic year. EMA expenditure for the two years for which figures are available is: As at 31 December 2010, the take-up figure for young people in Calderdale who have received EMA during the 2010/11 academic York year was 2,819. Academic year Expenditure (£)

EMA take-up data showing the number of young people who 2009/10 1,352,195 have received one or more EMA payments during 2004/05, 2005/06, 2006/07, 2007/08 2008/09 and 2009/10 is available on the YPLA 2010/11 (as at 31 January) 544,045 website, at the following address: North Yorkshire http://ema.ypla.gov.uk/resources/research/takeup/ Academic year Expenditure (£)

2009/10 £4,838,490 Education Maintenance Allowance: North Yorkshire 2010/11 (as at 31 January) £1,919,185

Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many young people receive education maintenance Education Maintenance Allowance: Sussex allowances in each (a) unitary authority and (b) district council area in York and North Yorkshire. [36566] Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: This is a matter for the Young People’s Education how many students in (a) Mid Sussex and Learning Agency (YPLA) who operate the education (b) West Sussex were in receipt of education maintenance maintenance allowance for the Department for Education. allowance in each of the last five years. [36968] Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s chief executive, has written to the hon. Member with the information requested and Mr Gibb: This is a matter for the Young People’s a copy of his reply has been placed in the House Learning Agency (YPLA) who operate the education Libraries. maintenance allowance for the Department for Education. Letter from Peter Lauener, dated 27 January 2011: Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s chief executive, has written I am writing in response to your Parliamentary Question PQ to the hon. Member with the information requested and 36566. a copy of his reply has been placed in the House Information on the number of young people who have received Libraries. Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA) is available for upper Letter from Peter Lauener, dated 28 January 2011: tier local authorities but not at district council level. EMA take-up is defined as young people who have received one or more EMA I am writing in response to your Parliamentary Question PQ payments in the academic year. 36968. 843W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 844W

Information on the number of young people who have received Mr Gibb [holding answer 24 January 2010]: I refer Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA) is available at local the hon. Member to my answer of 24 November 2010, authority level, but not at constituency level. EMA take-up is Official Report, columns 379-80W to the hon. Member defined as young people who have received one or more EMA for Wigan (Lisa Nandy). payments in the academic year. EMA take-up data showing the number of young people who have received one or more EMA payments during 2004/05, 2005/06, Pupils: Disadvantaged 2006/07, 2007/08, 2008/09 and 2009/10 is available on the YPLA website, at the following address: Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Education http://ema.ypla.gov.uk/resources/research/takeup/ how many pupils in (a) North West Durham constituency, The table below shows take-up figures for all three Local (b) the North East and (c) England he expects to Authorities within Sussex. receive the pupil premium in each of the next five years. [32954] Brighton and Academic West Sussex East Sussex Hove local year local authority local authority authority Mr Gibb: The deprivation pupil premium for 2011-12 will be allocated to local authorities and schools with 2006/07 6,065 4,893 2,242 pupils that are known to be eligible for free school 2007/08 6,289 5,069 2,248 meals (FSM) as recorded on the January 2011 School 2008/09 5,648 5,044 2,243 Census, Pupil Referral Unit Census and Alternative 2009/10 7,253 5,911 2,658 Provision Census. Each pupil known to be eligible for 2010/ 6,943 5,701 2,686 free school meals will attract £430 of funding which will 111 go to the school or academy, via the local authority or 1 As at 31 December. YPLA if the pupil is in a mainstream setting, or will be managed by the responsible local authority if the pupil General Practitioners is in a non-mainstream setting. The level of the pupil premium will be the same for every deprived pupil, no Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Education matter where they live. what steps the Department plans to take to ensure that The same level of premium is available for looked pathfinder GP consortia are able to share best practice after children who, at some point in the year to 31 over the next two years. [37349] March 2010, were looked after continuously for at least six months, and who were aged four to 15 on 31 August Mr Simon Burns: I have been asked to reply. 2009 as recorded on the April 2010 local authority The Health and Social Care Bill 2011 will provide for return. general practitioner (GP) consortia to be established The service child premium for 2011-12 will be allocated from April 2012, prior to taking on full statutory to local authorities and schools with pupils who are responsibilities from April 2013. The Department has registered as service child on the January 2011 School established a rolling programme of GP consortia Census. pathfinders to test the different elements involved in Each pupil known to be eligible will attract £200 of GP-led commissioning and enable emerging GP consortia funding which will go to the school or academy via the to get more rapidly involved in current commissioning local authority or YPLA. decisions. A Pathfinder learning network has been The amounts allocated in 2011-12 will depend on the established to support the development of emerging numbers of FSM pupils recorded on the January 2011 consortia and to facilitate shared learning during the Censuses, so it is not possible to give figures for 2011 transition. The shadow NHS Commissioning Board and subsequent years. We aim to extend the coverage of will produce and publish an analysis of the findings of the pupil premium from 2012-13 onwards to pupils who the pathfinder programme and set out the lessons learned have previously been known to be eligible for free that will be applied as consortia become formally established school meals. We intend to consult on this, including during 2012-13. the question of which deprivation indicator to use, in the summer. Music: Education It is possible to provide estimated figures for 2011-12 based on the number of FSM pupils in 2010, and these Mr Swayne: To ask the Secretary of State for Education are given below. However, these are estimates only and what response he plans to make to the report of the are not necessarily indicative of how the pupil premium Henley Review of Music Education. [34786] will be distributed as the number of eligible pupils in 2011 could be higher or lower. Numbers of pupils are Mr Gibb [holding answer 27 January 2011]: We expect rounded to the nearest five. Please note suppressed the Henley Review of Music Education to be published figures have not been included in any of the totals. shortly. The Government will respond as fully as possible North West Durham constituency to the recommendations at that time. In North West Durham in January 2010 there were 1,865 pupils known to be eligible, which would give rise New Schools Network to a pupil premium of £801,950. These figures do not include looked after children or service children. Data Dr Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education limitations prevent alternative provision being presented what assessment he made of the ability of other at constituency level, so these figures also do not include organisations to perform the role allocated to the New an estimate for the number of eligible children in such Schools Network. [35050] provision. 845W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 846W

The North East Region for 2011-12 will be £625 million. The above estimates In the North East in January 2010 there were 76,100 include pupils in maintained schools, alternative provision, pupils known to be eligible, which would give rise to a pupil referral units and looked after children. In addition pupil premium of £32,723,000. The above estimates to this there were 37,915 pupils known to be eligible for include pupils in maintained schools, alternative provision, the service child premium, which would give rise to a pupil referral units and looked after children. In addition premium of £7,583,000. there were 810 pupils known to be eligible for the service child premium, which would give rise to a premium Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for of £162,000. Education how many (a) primary, (b) secondary and England (c) special school pupils are eligible for free school In England in January 2010 there were 1,223,465 meals in each ward in Sevenoaks constituency. [35986] pupils known to be eligible, which would give rise to a pupil premium of £526,089,950. However, we expect Mr Gibb [holding answer 25 January 2011]: The the number of eligible pupils to rise appreciably in 2011 number of pupils known to be eligible for and claiming as schools and local authorities encourage parents who free school meals is shown in the following table. This have failed to register in the past to register for free includes full-time pupils aged 0 to 15 and part-time school meals, and therefore estimate that total expenditure pupils aged five to 15.

Maintained primary1, state-funded secondary1, 2 and special3 schools: School meal arrangements5—As at January 2010 by each ward within Sevenoaks parliamentary constituency Primary1 State-funded secondary1, 2 Special3 Number Number Number of pupils of pupils of pupils known to known to known to be eligible Percentage be eligible Percentage be eligible Percentage for and known to be for and known to be for and known to be claiming eligible for claiming eligible for claiming eligible for free and claiming free and claiming free and claiming Number school free school Number school free school Number school free school on roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals on roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals on roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals

Ash 312 58 186 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Brasted, Chevening and 733 32 4.4 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Sundridge Crockenhill and Well Hill 202 16 7.9 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Dunton Green and 454 24 5.3 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Riverhead Eynsfcrd 318 8 2.5 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Farningham, Horton 256 14 5.5 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Kirby and South Darenth Fawkham and West 265 21 7.9 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Kingsdown Halstead, Knockholt and 225 19 8.4 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Badgers Mount Hextable 408 19 4.7 654 71 10.9 82 6— 6— Kemsing 205 9 4.4 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Otford and Snoreham 345 18 5.2 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Seal and Weald 347 42 12.1 380 54 14.2 25 7— 7— Sevenoaks Eastern 77 25 32.5 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Sevenoaks Northern n/a n/a n/a 746 70 9.4 n/a n/a n/a Sevenoaks Town and St 829 47 5.7 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a John’s Sevenoaks Kippington n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Swanley Christchurch and 447 67 15.0 n/a n/a n/a 43 6— 6— Swanley Village Swanley St Mary’s 194 90 46.4 502 118 23.5 n/a n/a n/a Swanley White Oak 482 131 27.2 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Westerham and Crockham 401 22 5.5 n/a n/a n/a 46 3 6.5 Hill Sevenoaks (all wards) 6,500 662 10.2 2,282 313 13.7 196 129 65.8 n/a = Not applicable. No schools of this type. 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes city technology colleges and academies. 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools, excludes general hospital schools. 4 Includes sole and dual (main) registrations. 5 Pupils who have full-time attendance and are aged 0 to 15, or pupils who have part-time attendance and aged five to 15. 6 A percentage greater than 95.0, or the numerator for this percentage. 7 One or Two pupils, or a percentage based on one or two pupils. Source: School Census 847W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 848W

Schools: Biometrics would expect schools to look to make efficiency gains in areas such as procurement and back office before they Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for consider reducing their teaching staff. Education how many (a) primary and (b) secondary Written Questions: Government Responses schools in (i) England, (ii) Yorkshire and (iii) Leeds North West constituency employ biometric identity technology. [34520] Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Education when he plans to reply to question 29342, on the IGCSE, Mr Gibb: We do not collect data on the number of tabled on 3 December 2010 for ordinary written answer. schools, whether primary or secondary, that use biometric [35984] identity technology but we estimate that approximately 30% of secondary schools and 5% of primary schools Mr Gibb: A response was issued to my hon. Friend use such systems. Legislation will be introduced in the on 27 January, Official Report, column 412W. Freedom Bill to ensure that no children’s biometric data is taken, in schools or colleges, without parental permission. The Freedom Bill will also give children the right to ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE refuse to use biometric systems and ensure that alternatives are provided for children who opt out or whose parents Departmental Regulation opt out of using biometric technology. Students: Finance Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what regulations his Department has removed since 6 May 2010. [37378] Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what arrangements he proposes to put in Gregory Barker: Since 6 May 2010, the Department place to monitor the effect of ending education maintenance has removed the Aviation Greenhouse Gas Emissions allowance and starting enhanced discretionary learner Trading scheme Regulations 2009 (SI 2009/2301), which support funding. [34212] were replaced by the Aviation Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme Regulations 2010 (SI 2010/1996). Mr Gibb [holding answer 18 January 2010]: We will work with representatives of schools, colleges, training In June 2010, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of providers and interested bodies to develop the monitoring State for Energy and Climate Change, my noble Friend arrangements for the enhanced fund and further Lord Marland, responsible for the Department’s regulatory information will be available in due course. agenda, wrote to 250 of the Department’s key stakeholders asking for their views on ways to reduce DECC’s regulatory Teachers: Conditions of Employment burden. Following on from this exercise, DECC plan to repeal 28 regulations. The exact process for repealing Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Education these is still being explored (a suitable vehicle for repeal what his policy is on taking into account a decision to is being considered, and consultation with relevant parties enter into an agreement with teaching unions on the such as the devolved Administrations needs to take pay and conditions of staff when determining whether place for certain policies). The response letter from my a school is granted academy status; and if he will make noble Friend and a summary of responses to this exercise a statement. [35459] was published in November 2010 on the DECC internet site: Mr Gibb: [holding answer 21 January 2011]: The http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/about/better_reg/ Secretary of State for Education will take a range of better_reg.aspx factors into account in deciding whether to enter into a In addition, in July 2010 DECC introduced two funding agreement with an Academy. A school’s intention deregulatory statutory instruments which prescribe a to take advantage of key academy freedoms, which power to allow local authorities to sell electricity generated include the ability to set the pay and conditions of staff, from renewable as well as combined heat and power is a relevant factor in the decision. sources: The Sale of Electricity by Local Authorities (Scotland) Regulations Teachers: Redundancy 2010 (SI 2010/1908) The Sale of Electricity by Local Authorities (England and Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales) Regulations 2010 (SI 2010/1910) Education what assessment he has made of the effects Finally, the Energy Bill, introduced into the House of on levels of experience in the workforce of planned Lords in December 2010, sets out proposals to repeal redundancies in teaching staff in schools. [34406] the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995 (HECA) in England, Scotland and Wales. This will reduce regulatory Mr Gibb [holding answer 18 January 2011]: No such burdens, support the Government’s localism agenda assessment has been made centrally. It is for schools and remove redundant legislation from the statute book. and employers to make their own decisions. The Department would expect schools to have regard Energy Supply to the capacity and capability, as well as skills and experience of the workforce in making such decisions. John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy The funding settlement for 2010-11 protects funding and Climate Change what secondments (a) EDF Energy, per pupil for schools in cash terms, and provides additional (b) British Gas, (c) ScottishPower, (d) E.ON Energy funding for the Pupil Premium on top of that. We and (e) Scottish and Southern Energy have made to his 849W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 850W

Department since 2008; for what (i) periods and (ii) jobs establishing the overall Health and Safety statutory such secondments were made; what secondments of framework to regulate industrial and workplace safety. staff from his Department have been made to each such There are currently no plans to review the Nuclear firm; and for what (A) periods and (B) jobs such Installations Act as a whole though some specific secondments were made since 2008. [37078] amendments are currently being developed to give effect to European legislation and international conventions. Gregory Barker: The following tables show details of people who are or have been on secondment from or to Liquefied Petroleum Gas the relevant bodies since October 2008 when Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) was created. Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy There have been no secondments into DECC from and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the either Scottish Power or Scottish and Southern Energy. number of households who have used (a) liquefied There no have been no secondments out of DECC to petroleum gas and (b) oil for domestic purposes in EDF Energy, Scottish Power or Scottish and Southern each of the last five years. [38068] Energy. Secondments into DECC from 2008 Charles Hendry: The following table shows the number DECC From which Secondment period of households in England that use liquefied petroleum grade organisation (months) gas (LPG) and the number that use heating oil as their Grade 7 Centrica—British Gas 7 main fuel for space heating for each of the years 2006 to Grade 7 EDF Energy 13 2008, which is the latest year for which this information is available. Grade 7 EDF Energy 6 Grade 7 EDF Energy 7 Thousand Grade 7 EDF Energy 7 Number of households in Number of households in Secondments out of DECC from 2008 England using LPG England using heating oil DECC Secondment period 2006 79 894 grade To which organisation (months) 2007 78 926 Grade 7 E.ON Energy 15 2008 97 828 Senior civil British Gas 12 servant In Wales in 2008, the latest year for which this information is available, around 22,000 households used LPG and around 143,000 households used oil. Similar data are Fuel Oil not available for 2006 and 2007.

Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Natural Gas: Drilling Energy and Climate Change what recent representations he has received on domestic heating oil from (a) members Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for of the public, (b) Members of Parliament and (c) Energy and Climate Change if he will ask the Committee consumer organisations. [37863] on Climate Change to examine the potential effects of the extraction of shale gas and coal bed methane in the Charles Hendry: As I noted in the Fuel Poverty UK (a) on achieving the UK’s energy policy objectives debate on 19 January, Official Report, columns 255-279WH, and (b) on the development of renewable energy. there have been a significant number of representations [37478] on the domestic oil market from the public and hon. Members of Parliament. I fully recognise the difficulties Charles Hendry: In the UK shale gas has not yet been people have experienced with rising prices and supply commercially proven and coalbed methane has not yet problems, as set out in my written ministerial statement been commercially proven on a large scale. Analysis of on 21 January, Official Report, columns 55-56WS. I the potential effects of extraction on UK energy policy welcome the independent assessment of the off-grid objectives and development of renewable energy would market by the Office of Fair Trading, and I look forward in the circumstances be subject to large uncertainties. to seeing its conclusions in advance of next winter so There are no plans to ask the Committee on Climate the lessons from this winter can be learned and any Change to carry out such an examination. necessary changes made. Natural Gas: Reserves Industrial Health and Safety Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the and Climate Change what progress his Department has likely proved global reserves of natural gas in each of made in reviewing the health and safety regulations for the next 20 years. [36983] which it is responsible since his appointment. [36974] Charles Hendry: DECC does not produce a statistic Charles Hendry: DECC is responsible for nuclear for the likely proved global reserves of gas. policy matters including the specific legislation relating However, the International Energy Agency estimates to the regulation of safety in the nuclear industry—Nuclear global proven reserves and recoverable resources in Installations Act 1965 (NIA 65). The Department of their World Energy Outlook Report. These place proven Work and Pensions (DWP) has responsibility for reserves at 184 tcm at the end of 2008. 851W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 852W

Urenco: Mutual Societies NHS Commissioning Board will want to draw on the expertise of charities and third sector organisations Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for when designing these mechanisms. Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of The tools and levers available to the NHS Commissioning 25 January 2011, Official Report, column 216W, on Board are described more fully in both “The NHS Urenco: mutual societies, what criteria the Government Outcomes Framework 2011-12”, and “Liberating the has applied in its assessment of the options in respect NHS: legislative framework and next steps”, which can of the one third stake in Urenco. [37844] be accessed via the following links: www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/ Charles Hendry: The Government’s assessment of @dh/@en/@ps/documents/digitalasset/dh_123138.pdf the future options for the UK shareholding in Urenco www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ will take account of the need to maintain protections in PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_122661 the areas of nuclear non-proliferation, safety and security, Copies have already been placed in the Library. as well as the need to deliver value for money for the tax payer. Breast Cancer: Drugs

Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for HEALTH Health (1) what steps he has taken to ensure an adequate supply of Femara (letrozole) to local community Alcoholic Drinks: Bexley pharmacists; [37459] (2) what discussions he has had with the devolved Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Administrations on the supply of Femara (letrozole); what estimate he has made of the number of people in [37460] the London borough of Bexley who are alcohol- (3) what assessment he has made of the effects on the dependent. [37463] adequacy of supply of pharmaceutical drugs to the NHS of the purchase of such drugs by private companies Anne Milton: The information requested is not held for sale abroad. [37461] centrally. However, the information is available from the National Patient Treatment Agency. Mr Simon Burns: We have been in contact with Novartis, Arthritis the suppliers of Femara (letrozole) tablets. They have confirmed that there are supplies of this medicine available Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for United Kingdom patients. If pharmacists have problems what plans his Department has to work with charities obtaining it from their wholesaler, they can contact and the third sector to deliver improved health Novartis Customer Services to arrange a direct supply outcomes for patients with rheumatoid arthritis; and if to the pharmacy. We have had discussions about Femara tablets with the devolved administrations, and have he will make a statement. [37202] made them aware of the supply situation. Paul Burstow: The recently published “NHS Outcomes The Department, Medicines and Healthcare products Framework 2011-12” sets out the national outcome Regulatory Agency and pharmaceutical supply chain goals that will be used to hold the proposed NHS stakeholders are working collaboratively to better Commissioning Board to account for delivering improved understand and mitigate the impact of supply difficulties outcomes, including those for rheumatoid arthritis. so that patients receive the medicines they need in a Although, there is not a specific outcome indicator for timely manner, and any arrangements take account of rheumatoid arthritis in the NHS Outcomes Framework, the time needed by pharmacists to source the medicines. we would expect progress to be captured under Domain 2: “Enhancing the quality of life for people with long-term Business Interests conditions”. This domain of the framework deliberately takes a generic approach to long-term conditions so as John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Health to ensure that no patients are excluded. whether former officials of his Department have asked However, the Secretary of State for Health will not be for permission to join (a) Care UK, (b) BUPA, (c) setting out how these outcomes should be delivered, it Roche, (d) Ellipse, (e) Grunenthal, (f) IMS Health, will be for the NHS Commissioning Board to determine (g) Janssen-Cilag, (h) Lundbeck and (i) PharmaMar how best to deliver improvements by working with in the last two years. [37080] general practitioner (GP) commissioning consortia, drawing on the advice and expertise of charitable and third-sector Mr Simon Burns: The Department has no record of organisations. former officials requesting permission to join Care UK, The NHS Commissioning Board will have various Priory Group, BUPA, Roche, Ellipse, Grunenthal, IMS tools and levers at its disposal to help deliver improved Health, Janssen-Cilag, Lundbeck or PharmaMar. outcomes, which include the library of the National All civil servants must obtain Government approval Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence Quality before taking any form of full-time, part-time or fee-paid Standards; the Commissioning Outcomes Framework, employment in the United Kingdom, or overseas, with which the NHS Commissioning Board will use to hold a public or private company or in the service of a GP commissioning consortia to account; and other foreign Government or its agencies. This rule also applies payment mechanisms between the NHS Commissioning to any former civil servant within two years of their Board, commissioners and providers. We expect the leaving Crown employment. 853W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 854W

Since January 2009, 36 departmental employees or (c) BUPA, (d) Roche, (e) Ellipse, (f) Grunenthal, (g) former employees submitted applications seeking approval IMS Health, (h) Janssen-Cilag, (i) Lundbeck and (j) to take up outside business appointments. Of these, PharmaMar. [37077] 13 applications were approved unconditionally and 24 had restrictions imposed. Restrictions imposed are Mr Simon Burns: No employee of the Department or usually in the form of a period of delay between leaving its agency—the Medicines and Healthcare products the civil service and taking up the external post. Regulatory Agency—is currently seconded to Care UK, Priory Group, BUPA, Roche, Ellipse, Grunenthal, IMS Departmental Libraries Health, Janssen-Cilag, Lundbeck or PharmaMar.

Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Health John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many (a) certified and (b) chartered librarians his how many employees, including permanent and temporary Department has employed in each year since 2000. contracted staff, are seconded to his Department and its [37655] agencies from (a) Care UK, (b) Priory Group, (c) BUPA, (d) Roche, (e) Ellipse, (f) Grunenthal, (g) IMS Health, Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is not (h) Janssen-Cilag, (i) Lundbeck and (j) PharmaMar. collected. Such information as is available is in the [37079] following table: Number of qualified librarians employed in the Department 2000-10 Mr Simon Burns: Neither the Department nor its Number agency—the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency—have any individuals seconded to them who 2000 32 are employees of Care UK, Priory Group, BUPA, 2001 34 Roche, Ellipse, Grunenthal, IMS Health, Janssen-Cilag, 2002 31 Lundbeck or PharmaMar. 2003 36 2004 33 John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2005 31 what secondments (a) Care UK, (b) BUPA, (c) Roche, 2006 30 (d) Ellipse, (e) Grunenthal, (f) IMS Health, (g) Janssen- 2007 30 Cilag, (h) Lundbeck and (i) PharmaMar have made to 2008 25 his Department since 2008; for what (i) periods and (ii) 2009 24 jobs such secondments were made; what secondments 2010 26 of staff from his Department have been made to each Notes: such firm; and for what (A) periods and (B) jobs such 1. The figures refer to the number of qualified librarians employed in secondments have been made since 2008. [37081] corporate information services on library, web services, information assurance, records and knowledge management. Qualified librarian refers to holders of a Chartered Institute of Library and Information Mr Simon Burns: Since 2008, there have been no Professionals (CILIP) accredited qualification many of whom, but secondments to—or from—the Department and Care not all, were chartered. It is not possible to differentiate between the UK, BUPA, Roche, Ellipse, Grunenthal, IMS Health, two categories of qualified or chartered, as chartered status is not an Janssen-Cilag, Lundbeck or PharmaMar. entry requirement for professional posts in government. 2. The Department did not employ any CILIP “Certified”, paraprofessional Library staff during the specified period. Deviance and Behaviour Disorders: Day Centres Source: Staff-in-post returns for January of each year. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Departmental Marketing what estimate he has made of the number of day care centres for people with personality disorders. [37622] Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the cost to the public purse was of the manufacture Paul Burstow: The number of personality disorder and distribution of Department branded drinks coasters (PD) services is collected centrally, but this is not in the last financial year for which figures are available. disaggregated into type of service. The following table [37239] shows dedicated PD services, which includes day hospital places, in England over the past three years: Mr Simon Burns: In the last financial year for which figures are available, the communications directorate Personality disorder services has not purchased or distributed any Department branded 2009 46 drinks coasters. 2008 39.04 The Department does not hold central records on 20071 53 items such as drinks coasters and attempting to gather 1 In 2007 there may have been some double counting. such information would incur disproportionate costs. Source: Adult Mental Health Service Mapping Atlas 2009. Departmental Secondment Drugs: Rehabilitation John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many employees, including permanent and temporary Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for contracted staff, are seconded from his Department Health if the National Treatment Agency will publish and its agencies to (a) Care UK, (b) Priory Group, figures on the number of clients treated through 855W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 856W

(a) residential rehabilitation and (b) community-based General Practitioners: Blackpool rehabilitation who subsequently required drug treatment services. [37767] Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many GPs there are in Blackpool North and Anne Milton: Data input to the National Drug Treatment Cleveleys constituency. [37610] Monitoring System (NDTMS) by treatment providers recorded that 61,384 individuals left treatment in 2008-09. Of this total: Mr Simon Burns: General practitioner (GP) workforce census figures are not collected at constituency level. 1,506 received residential rehabilitation as part of their treatment The following table shows the numbers of agreed general journey of whom 510 (34%) re-presented to treatment services in 2009-10; and and personal medical services contracts within the Blackpool primary care trust (PCT) and the North 59,878 did not receive residential rehabilitation as part of their treatment journey of whom 16,488 (28%) re-presented to Lancashire Teaching PCT, both of which serve the treatment services in 2009-10. Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency.

Almost all general practitioners providing prescribing Contract count and shared care services and almost all community treatment providers submit NDTMS returns. However, Blackpool PCT 98 only around two thirds of residential rehabilitation North Lancashire Teaching PCT 209 providers submit NDTMS returns which limits the Notes: scope for monitoring outcomes for users of their services. 1. Data as at 30 September 2009. 2. Data are for GPs (excluding retainers and registrars). 3. GP workforce census figures are not collected at constituency level. General Practitioners Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency is contained within and serviced by Blackpool PCT and North Lancashire Teaching PCT. 4. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care seeks to Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Health minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but what assessment he has made of the representations responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing received on his Department’s White Paper on GP the data. Methods are continually being updated to improve data commissioning consortia. [37456] quality where changes impact on figures already published. This is assessed but unless it is significant at national level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is footnoted in relevant Mr Simon Burns: The White Paper “Equity and analyses. Excellence: Liberating the NHS” was published in July Source: 2010, and set out our long-term vision for the national The NHS Information Centre for health and social care, general and personal medical services statistics health service. Shortly after, we set out further details of our proposals to devolve power and responsibility for commissioning services to local consortia of general Haemophilia practitioner practices in “Liberating the NHS: Commissioning for Patients”, with the consultation on these proposals running from July to October. Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health which clotting factor products were in use (a) on and In December, we published our response to the (b) off licence in the UK in 1994; and if he will make a consultation in “Liberating the NHS: Legislative framework statement. [37568] and next steps” setting out our plans in further detail. This document set out a full analysis of the responses to the consultation and how our proposals were modified Mr Simon Burns: Information held by the Medicines in light of the consultation. and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) confirms that the following clotting factor products had All of these documents are available in the Library. a valid authorisation in 1994 and were therefore available for use in the United Kingdom at that time, under the General Practitioners: Ashton-in-Makerfield terms of their licence. Neither the MHRA nor the Department has any information regarding the extent Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for of on-licence or off-licence use of these products. Health how many applications for GP consortia have Additionally, the MHRA does not hold commercial information and therefore is unable to confirm which of been received from Makerfield constituency. [37181] these products were actually placed on the market by the marketing authorisation holders at this time. Mr Simon Burns: The Health and Social Care Bill 2011 will provide for general practitioner (GP) consortia Authorisation to be established from April 2012, prior to taking on holder company full statutory responsibilities from April 2013. A rolling name Licensed product name Drug substance programme of GP pathfinder consortia has been established Bayer plc Kogenate 250 lyophilised Factor VIII to test the different elements involved in GP-led powder for reconstitution (RDNA) (BHK) commissioning and enable emerging GP consortia to Bayer plc Kogenate 500 lyophilised Factor VIII get more rapidly involved in current commissioning powder for reconstitution (RDNA) (BHK) decisions. Bayer plc Kogenate 1000 lyophilised Factor VIII Groups of GP practices keen to participate in the powder for reconstitution (RDNA) (BHK) pathfinder programme put themselves forward to their Hoechst UK Haemate-P 25IU/ML strategic health authority.There are currently no pathfinder Ltd. (250 and 500 unit size) and 33IU/ML (1000 unit) consortia in Makerfield. 857W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 858W

Health and Social Care Bill Authorisation holder company name Licensed product name Drug substance Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what consultation he plans to undertake on the provisions Baxter Recombinate Factor VIII of the Health and Social Care Bill. [37457] Healthcare antihaemophilic factor (RDNA)(RCH) cell Ltd. (recombinant) nominal line 10A1C6 250I Mr Simon Burns: The Health and Social Care Bill takes forward the proposals contained in the White Paper Baxter Recombinate RAHF Factor VIII “Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS”. The Healthcare nominal 500IU/bottle (RDNA)(RCH) cell Ltd. line 10A1C6 Government undertook an extensive process of consultation and engagement around these proposals from July-October Baxter Recombinate RAHF Factor VIII Healthcare nominal 1000IU/bottle (RDNA)(RCH) cell 2010. A variety of discussion and engagement events Ltd. line 10A1C6 were held throughout this period and some 6,000 responses were received, which formed the basis for the Government’s Baxter Hemofil M—AHF Factor VIII Healthcare (human) monoclonal response, “Liberating the NHS: Legislative Framework Ltd. purified nominal and Next Steps”, published on 15 December 2010. As 250IU/VI the Bill progresses through Parliament, there will be an Baxter Hemofil M—AHF Factor VIII opportunity for hon. Members to debate the reforms Healthcare (human) monoclonal and propose amendments. Ltd. purified nominal 500IU/VL Health Services: Ex-servicemen Baxter Hemofil M—AHF Factor VIII Healthcare (human) monoclonal Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for Ltd. purified nominal 1000IU/ VIAL Health what steps he is taking to improve information to the public on NHS services for ex-service personnel. CSL Behring Monoclate-P 250, IU per Factor VIII UK Ltd. vial nominal potency (RDNA) [37100] CSL Behring Monoclate-P 500, IU per Factor VIII Mr Simon Burns: The Department is working closely UK Ltd. vial nominal potency (RDNA) with service charities such as the Royal British Legion, CSL Behring Monoclate-P 1000, IU Factor VIII Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association, Combat UK Ltd. units per vial nominal (RDNA) potency Stress and others to improve information to veterans and the wider public on national health service services CSL Behring Mononine (freeze dried Factor IX human for ex-service personnel. A leaflet, “Meeting the Healthcare UK Ltd. human coagulation factor (MAB purified) IX) 250IU Needs of Veterans in England” was produced by the Department in partnership with the Royal British Legion CSL Behring Mononine (freeze dried Factor IX human UK Ltd. human coagulation factor (MAB purified) and was distributed widely through general practitioner IX) 500IU surgeries and through the Royal British Legion. In addition, the NHS Choices Website contains several CSL Behring Mononine (freeze-dried Factor IX human UK Ltd. human coagulation factor (MAB purified) pages dedicated to veterans health issues, including IX) 1000IU mental health. Ipsen Hyate: C lyophilisate for Factor VIII The hon. Member for South West Wiltshire Biopharm injection (Dr Murrison) was asked by the Prime Minister to Ltd. review mental health services for serving personnel and NHS Human factor IX Factor IX fraction veterans. His report, published in October 2010, made a National concentrate (de fix) number of recommendations that will be delivered over Services (powder for the coming year. The Department will ensure that as Scotland reconstitution) new services are introduced to meet the mental health Grifols UK Alpha VIII 250, 500, 750, Factor VIII needs of veterans that these are publicised through Ltd. 1000, 1250, 1500 IV media outlets. injection Grifols UK Alphanine injection Factor IX—plasma Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for Ltd. 500IU (nominal) thromboplastin Health what rates of travel and subsistence expenses component can be claimed from the NHS by war pensioners; when Grifols UK Alphanine injection Factor IX—plasma the current rates were implemented; and whether he Ltd. 1000IU (nominal) thromboplastin has plans to review the rates in the light of increases in component the cost of travel and subsistence. [37098] Grifols UK Alphanine injection Factor IX—plasma Ltd. 1500IU (nominal) thromboplastin Mr Simon Burns: Patient transport services (PTS) are component maintained by national health service commissioners Bio Products Dried factor VIII Dried factor VIII (primary care trusts) and generally booked by relevant Laboratory fraction, type 8Y secondary or community services medical professionals. Bio Products Replenine Human factor II; Eligibility for non-urgent transport is based upon clinical Laboratory human factor IX need and available to all NHS patients. and human factor X The Hospital Travel Cost Scheme (HTCS) is designed Bio Products Replenate Freeze-dried human to help with travel costs and arrangements for all NHS Laboratory coagulation factor VIII patients on low incomes. HTCS is for those who do not medically require PTS but require help in meeting the 859W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 860W cost of travel to and from NHS medical care. The pilot of mentoring for service leavers; are planning an HTCS is means tested for low income earners with on-line counselling service and are asking each part of those on a range of low income benefits automatically the national health service to make access to treatment entitled. This scheme is constituted under the National for veterans a priority. We are taking all the steps we can Health Service (Travelling Expenses and Remission of to reduce the reluctance to seek help that is so characteristic Charges) Regulations 1988 as amended. of young men. The HTCS will reimburse all or some of the travel costs depending on eligibility. If the patient is entitled Prescriptions: Fees and Charges to qualifying benefits or allowances they will get back the full travel costs by using the cheapest form of public Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for transport available, including any concessions or Health (1) what estimate he has made of the cost to the promotions. If the patient uses a private car, a claim for public purse of including transplants on the list of petrol and car parking charges where unavoidable, can medical conditions that grant exemption from prescription be made at the mileage rate specified under the local charges; [37311] HTCS. (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to the The HTCS does not apply in cases where war pensioners public purse of amending the list of medical conditions incur travelling expenses when obtaining treatment of that grant exemption from prescription charges in line conditions caused by service. Such expenses may be met with the recommendations of Professor Sir Ian by the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency who Gilmore’s review. [37313] apply their eligibility criteria to individual cases.

Mental Health Services: Ex-servicemen Mr Simon Burns: No estimate has been made of the cost to the public purse of providing an exemption from prescription charges to patients who have undergone a Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Health transplant. (1) whether he expects the 30 mental health nurses for veterans announced in the Fighting Fit report to be in Professor Sir Ian Gilmore’s report, “Prescription charges post by March 2011; [37412] review: implementing exemption from prescription charges for people with long term conditions”, recommended (2) whether he expects the 24-hour support line for an approach to exemption that was based on a broad ex-service personnel to be operational by the end of definition of a long-term condition rather than amending January 2011. [37414] the existing list of medical conditions. The review estimated that once fully implemented, exempting people with Mr Simon Burns: The Department of Health is working long term conditions from prescription charges could with the national health service, Ministry of Defence cost £430 million per annum. The report was published (MOD) and service charities to deliver in England the on 27 May 2010 and a copy has already been placed in recommendations put forward by the hon. Member for the Library. South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) in his report to the Prime Minister, ‘Fighting Fit’ that was published in October 2010. The specification for delivery of 30 additional Primary Health Care mental health nurses is currently being developed through the armed forces networks. These are led by strategic Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for health authorities and bring together primary care trusts Health (1) whether his Department is taking steps to with local representatives of the armed forces community, maintain the management of the support functions for service charities and others. Commissioning for the family health services will continue to be managed on a service will commence in April 2011. There will be local basis after the abolition of primary care trusts; flexibility within the specification to ensure that additional [37101] resources are placed where they will have the most (2) what plans he has for the future management of impact for veterans with mental health problems. This family health services; and if he will make a statement. specification will ensure that those employed will have [37102] the right competencies to deliver this service. Wider training on veterans’ issues will also be provided. Mr Simon Burns: Subject to the passage of the Health The Department of Health is working with the charity and Social Care Bill presented to Parliament on 19 Combat Stress to provide a 24 hour helpline service for January 2011, the Bill will make the NHS Commissioning veterans seeking help. A tender process for this has Board responsible for commissioning family health services recently been completed and work is in hand to put this including primary care, pharmacy, dental and ophthalmic in place by the end of February. services. Post-traumatic Stress Disorder The NHS Commissioning Board will decide how to carry out its responsibilities. Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he plans to take steps to reduce stigma Prostate Gland: Medical Treatments associated with veterans experiencing post-traumatic stress disorder. [37413] Mr Ronnie Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what consultations he undertook with Mr Simon Burns: The Government are committed to medical practitioners in the field before issuing his reducing the stigma associated with all forms of mental proposed changes to the Best Practice Tariff for laser ill health. For veterans in particular, we have begun a treatment of the enlarged prostate; [37315] 861W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 862W

(2) what assessment he has made of the compatibility Anne Milton: The Department of Health and the of the proposed Best Practice Tariff for laser treatment Department for Education are jointly engaged in discussions of the enlarged prostate with his Department’s obligations with the Communications Trust, the Royal College of for choice in day care and treatment options for the Speech and Language Therapists and others on how most vulnerable patients. [37316] best to achieve the right services for children with speech, language and communications needs, in the Mr Simon Burns: The 2011-12 Best Practice Tariff for context of the Government’s wider programme. laser treatment of the enlarged prostate has been developed Officials from both Departments are working closely with the support of clinicians, including the President together on a range of issues affecting children and of the British Association of Urological Surgeons. families, for example on health visiting and early years The draft 2011-12 tariffs were shared for ‘sense check’ services where improvements will support early identification in October 2010, and changes were subsequently made of speech and language needs, as will be outlined in the to the levels of the proposed tariff for resection of forthcoming special education needs and disability Green prostate by laser to reflect concerns that a day case rate Paper. target of 90% was overly ambitious for delivery in one year. A revised target of 30% was therefore agreed, and the draft 2011-12 tariff prices were increased accordingly. DEFENCE The 2011-12 tariff prices were published for ‘road test’ on 22 December, since when it has been brought to the Department’s attention that the published Best Practice Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Tariff price for resection of prostate by laser contained Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for a typographical error. The October 2010 ‘sense check’ Defence how many improvised explosive device attacks prices for this procedure had been inadvertently included, there were on UK forces in Afghanistan in each month rather than the revised prices that were agreed for ‘road between June 2006 and December 2007. [36154] test’. The agreed prices for resection of prostate by laser Nick Harvey: Records of incidents for the whole of will appear in the final tariff package for 2011-12 when Afghanistan are not held centrally and could be provided it is published in February. only at disproportionate cost. Data is more readily available for attacks within the Sickle Cell Diseases: Greater London Task Force Helmand area of operations in Helmand province, which includes the majority of UK forces deployed to Afghanistan. The figures refer to an explosion Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health that has subsequently been reported by units operating what training the London Ambulance Service gives to within the taskforce Helmand area of responsibility. ambulance staff on the (a) symptoms and (b) emergency This includes both ‘laid’ improvised explosive devices treatment of sickle cell anaemia; and if he will make a (IEDs) and suicide (both vehicle and person-borne) statement. [37527] devices. These figures do not include IED finds with no detonation or IED false alarms. Mr Simon Burns: National guidance on the symptoms and emergency treatment of people with sickle cell was Month IED attacks published in the “UK Ambulance Service Clinical Practice Guidelines (2006)”. All frontline London Ambulance June 2006 4 Service staff receive training in the assessment and July 2006 5 management of patients with sickle cell conditions, in August 2006 7 line with these guidelines. Further national guidance September 2006 9 was issued to staff in 2009. Copies of the guidance have October 2006 6 been placed in the Library. November 2006 0 December 2006 3 Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health January 2007 2 what steps the London strategic health authority is February 2007 8 taking to improve the emergency care of patients with March 2007 8 sickle cell disease; and if he will make a statement. April 2007 13 [37540] May 2007 23 June 2007 23 Mr Simon Burns: The planning, delivery and July 2007 32 improvement of services for people with sickle cell, including emergency care, are the responsibility of local August 2007 18 commissioners and providers. It is not the responsibility September 2007 32 of the strategic health authority. October 2007 24 November 2007 15 Speech Therapy: Departmental Coordination December 2007 21 This data is based on information derived from a number Mr Robin Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for of sources and can only be an estimate, not least because Health what discussions officials in his Department of the difficulties in ensuring a consistent interpretation have had with officials in the Department for Education of the basis for collating statistics in a complex fast-moving on the role of speech and language therapy services in multinational operational environment. It is modified developing communication skills and literacy. [37484] over time as more information becomes available. 863W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 864W

Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for motor mileage allowance, (b) commitment bonus and Defence what the capital costs are of (a) constructing (c) specialist pay reserve banding in the financial years and (b) extending the runway at Kandahar Airfield for (i) 2011-12, (ii) 2012-13, (iii) 2013-14 and (iv) 2014-15; military purposes; what proportion of these costs will [36818] be recoverable to the UK on departure; and if he will (2) what estimate he has made of the savings which make a statement. [36588] will result from changes to (a) recruitment and retention Nick Harvey: The reconstruction at Kandahar airfield allowance (London), (b) disturbance allowance, (c) is being undertaken by NATO and is US-led. daily subsistence, (d) get you home (early years) and (e) get you home (seagoers) in the financial year (i) Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 2011-12, (ii) 2012-13, (iii) 2013-14 and (iv) 2014-15; what recent assessment he has made of the security [37005] situation in Afghanistan; and if he will make a statement. (3) what estimate he has made of the savings which [37066] will result from changes to (a) incidental expenses allowance, (b) local overseas allowance, (c) food and Dr Fox: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave incidentals allowance and (d) living out supplemental on 31 January 2011, Official Report, columns 578-9, to rates of local overseas allowance in (i) 2011-12, (ii) my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen). 2012-13, (iii) 2013-14 and (iv) 2014-15. [37006]

Africa: Military Aid Mr Robathan [holding answer 31 January 2011]: Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Estimates have been made in respect of proposed savings Defence what assessment he has made of the UK’s against the allowances budget and these are presented ability to mount (a) humanitarian and (b) peacekeeping in the following table. These are predicated on such interventions following the implementation of the Strategic factors as a constant exchange rate, a consistent number Defence and Security Review in (i) Sierra Leone, (ii) of claimants in their current locations, manpower reductions Ivory Coast and (iii) other African countries where being actioned within planned timescales and other opposed intervention is deemed necessary. [36587] factors such as the Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs’ current mileage rates, none of which is guaranteed and Dr Fox: It would be inappropriate to outline specific therefore such estimates are liable to fluctuate. plans for individual countries and regions considered in the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) and £ million in routine departmental planning. The SDSR established 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 force structures for both the near-term and longer-term Motor Mileage Allowance 1.3 1.5 1.5 1.5 that would be capable of conducting overseas operations Commitment Bonus 1.3 2.7 5.9 7.9 across the spectrum of operations. Specialist Pay Reserve 0.0 3.2 3.2 3.2 Banding Aircraft Carriers: Training Recruitment and Retention 0.0 2.9 2.9 2.9 Allowance (London) Disturbance Allowance 3.4 3.7 3.7 3.7 Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Daily Subsistence (Overseas) 0.2 0.3 0.3 0.3 Defence what programmes have been (a) planned and Get You Home (Early Years) 1.9 2.1 2.1 2.1 (b) initiated to train fast-jet pilots and supporting Get You Home (Seagoers) 0.4 0.5 0.5 0.5 carrier personnel to retain the skills necessary to operate Incidental Expenses 18.5 20.2 20.2 20.2 the Queen Elizabeth-class carriers; where such personnel Allowance will receive their training; under whose command they Local Overseas Allowance 25.8 42.2 42.2 42.2 will be placed; and if he will make a statement. [36616] Food and Incidentals 9.8 10.7 10.7 10.7 Allowance Living Out Supplemental 1.7 1.8 1.8 1.8 Nick Harvey: Service personnel will be trained in the Rates of Local Overseas skills required to operate the Queen Elizabeth class Allowance carrier and the Joint Combat Aircraft as the UK Carrier Strike capability is generated. Royal Navy and Royal Air Force fast-jet pilots and supporting personnel will require new skill-sets which will be developed through co-operative programmes with allied nations who operate Armed Forces: Compensation aircraft carriers. Once the introduction to service dates have been confirmed, further engagement will take place with partner nations to identify training opportunities Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for for both ship-based and flying-related personnel. Defence what estimate he has made of the number of people who will be affected by the proposed increase in Armed Forces: Allowances payments for ex-service personnel with mental health disorders. [37732] Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 20 January 2011, Official Report, columns 45-47WS, Mr Robathan: The increased payments for service on armed forces allowances, what estimate he has made personnel with mental health disorders will be paid of the savings which will result from changes to (a) through the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme (AFCS). 865W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 866W

As at 30 September 2010, 360 individuals had been Armed Forces: Location awarded compensation for a mental health condition. As a result of the review and in line with all personnel who John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence have previously claimed, those diagnosed with a mental whether his Department maintains a budget for the health disorder suffered as a result of their service will relocation of members of the armed forces from base receive an uplift to their compensation award. to base. [37532]

Armed Forces: Conditions of Employment Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence does not maintain a specific central budget for relocations. However, Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for top level budget (TLB) finance officers at the Headquarters Defence what consultation, with which organisations, of Fleet Command, Land Forces, Air Command and he has had on the preparation of the Military Covenant other TLBs monitor cost trends within their areas. Annual Report; and if he will make a statement. [37415]

Mr Robathan: We intend to consult key stakeholders, Armed Forces: Mental Health including the members of the External Reference Group (ERG), in the preparation of the Armed Forces Covenant Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for report. The ERG is chaired by the Cabinet Office and Defence what studies his Department has commissioned attended by Government officials (Ministry of Defence on the mental health of serving and former armed and Armed Forces Advocates across Whitehall), the forces personnel in the last five years. [37338] Devolved Administrations, Professor Hew Strachan (Oxford University), Service charities (COBSEO, RBL, SSAFA Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence has Forces Help and the War Widows Association of Great commissioned a number of high quality research projects Britain) and the three Service Families Federations. which relate to the mental health of current and ex-Service personnel. These include the prevalence of suicide in Armed Forces: Housing veterans, delayed-onset post traumatic stress disorder and evaluation of the NHS community veterans’ mental Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for health pilots. Defence how many reported break-ins to service personnel Highly acclaimed large scale research by the King’s accommodation there have been in each year since Centre for Military Health Research (KCMHR) has 2008. [37333] been undertaken on the experiences of members of HM armed forces who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. A Mr Robathan: The following table shows the number full list of papers that have been produced by KCMHR of break-ins recorded on the Ministry of Defence to date can be found on their website at: Police (MDP) crime database, to Service personnel http://www.kcl.ac.uk/kcmhr accommodation in each year since 2008. and then click on the ‘publications’ tab. I shall place a copy of this list in the Library of the Number of break-ins Calendar year (Burglaries) House.

2008 193 2009 123 Armed Forces: Pensions 2010 142

The term “break-ins” has been interpreted to mean Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for “burglaries”. These figures include barrack room Defence (1) how many new starters joined (a) the accommodation, cabins on ships and in accommodation Armed Forces Pension Scheme, (b) Disablement Gratuity blocks and married quarters (both occupied and Scheme and (c) the Armed Forces Disablement Pension unoccupied), including sheds and garages. Scheme in each year from 1981 to 2000; [37601] (2) how many individuals were in receipt of payments Armed Forces: Injuries from the (a) Armed Forces Pension Scheme and (b) Armed Forces Disablement Scheme in each year from 1981 to 2000. [37724] Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many people living in (a) Brecon and Radnorshire Mr Robathan [holding answer 1 February 2011]: The constituency, (b) Wales and (c) the UK have left the Armed Forces Pension Scheme is the occupational pension armed forces as a result of injury or disability sustained scheme for the armed forces, including reserve forces. during their military service. [37523] The War Pension Scheme provides no fault compensation to former service personnel and their dependants for Mr Robathan: Data on the residential location of injuries and death as a result of service, from the start of discharged service personnel are not held centrally. world war one until 5 April 2005. The Armed Forces 886 Royal Navy personnel, 2,799 Army personnel Compensation Scheme has provided compensation since and 424 RAF personnel were medically discharged with 6 April 2005. musculoskeletal disorders and injuries between 2005 The information sought on Armed Forces Pension and 2009. Not all of these would have sustained their Scheme payments is not held on the current IT system conditions as a result of their military service. and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. 867W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 868W

The War Pension Scheme payments information is residual duty of care. In the light of this, the information only available from April 1995 onwards. The following that can be provided is presented in the following table. table provides a breakdown of claims by the year in Armed forces personnel—deaths of 16 and 17 year olds by cause, duty which the claim was cleared: status, location, 1997-2010 All UK Rest of Ongoing World Claim war gratuity Cause of On Off On Off On Off awarded pension award Nil award Total death All duty duty duty duty duty duty

1995 3,495 2,155 4,230 9,885 Total 32 12 20 10 18 2 2 1996 9,295 6,550 11,980 27,825 Disease 3212100 1997 5,290 6,055 8,900 20,250 related 1998 2,625 3,800 4,095 10,520 conditions 1999 2,775 4,485 3,675 10,935 External 2000 2,545 . 3,960 3,190 9,695 causes of injury and Total 26,030 27,005 36,075 89,110 poisoning: Notes: Accident 24 7 17 7 16 0 1 1. A gratuity award is a single payment where war disablement has been accepted as a result of service, but the disablement is assessed at Death due to 0000000 less than 20%. violence 2. A nil award is where it is accepted that a particular disablement is as Suicide and 5321121 a result of service, but no monetary compensation is given because open verdict the resulting disablement is less than 20%. 3. All figures have been rounded to the nearest five, including totals. Departmental Marketing As at 31 December 2000, there were a total of 235,785 disablement pensioners in receipt of war pensions under Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence the War Pension Scheme. At the same date, there were a what the cost to the public purse was of the manufacture total of 64,130 gratuity awards recorded. and distribution of Department-branded drinks coasters Payment figures for the years 1981-1999 are not in the last financial year for which figures are available. available. [37245] Armed Forces: Young People Mr Robathan: The information is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many 16 and 17 year olds have died while Departmental Senior Civil Servants on service or training in the armed forces since 1997; and what the (a) cause of death and (b) country where Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State death took place was in each case. [36285] for Defence what senior civil service staff moves there have been in his Department since May 2010; and what Mr Robathan: It is not the practice of the Ministry of the (a) name and (b) salary is of each person (i) Defence (MOD) to release full details on the cause of moving posts within and (ii) leaving his Department. death and the country in which the death took place [37021] after the initial incident. The numbers involved are so small that individuals could be easily identifiable and as Mr Robathan: The total number of moves into and such this information could well be distressing to the out of senior civil service posts since May 2010 is 66 as relatives of the deceased, to whom the MOD has a summarised in the following table.

Retirement/ Temporary New joiners/ inward Pay band resignation Loan/ transfer out Internal move promotion loan

PB1 10 4 25 6 9 PB210412 PB300—00 PB410201

In line with central Government policy guidance http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/ adopted under the Transparency agenda, Departments WhatWeDo/Transparency/ are not releasing the names or banded salaries for those The following table details moves at SCS Pay Band 1 in the lowest (Pay Band 1) grade of the SCS, nor those since May 2010, using the job title rather than the name at more senior levels who have not consented to the of the individual. For all the moves quoted I can release of their names. In addition, the exact salary of confirm that the salary of individual officers fell within any individual is personal data and as such cannot be the SCS Pay Band 1 range of £58,200 to £117,750: released. The following is a link to the MOD Transparency page: 869W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 870W

Pay Band 1—Details of SCS movements from may 2010 to January 2011 Name of post Pay band Former incumbent Reason for change New incumbent Comment

Head Products United PB1 Not disclosed Left Department Vacant — Kingdom Hydrographic Office Chief Environmental and PB1 Not disclosed Left Department Not disclosed Transfer from HSE Safety Officer Defence Equipment and Support Commercial Director PB1 — New post Not disclosed Joined Dept Defence Support Group Chief Operating Officer PB — New post Not disclosed Joined Dept and Deputy Head Hydrographic Office HD Capability Technology PB1 Not disclosed Retirement Post discontinued Head of Cost Assurance PB1 Not disclosed Retirement Not disclosed Internal move Analysis Director General Saudi PB1 Not disclosed Retirement Not disclosed Internal move Arabia Project Head Policy and Resources Head of Deterrent PB1 Not disclosed Loan DECC Now filled by Military — Capability Deputy Command PB1 Not disclosed Reverted to Band B Not disclosed Internal move Secretary Land Forces D Commercial PB1 Not disclosed Retirement Not disclosed Temp promotion Information Services and Systems Armed Force PB1 Not disclosed Resignation Post discontinued — Compensation Scheme Review Head of General Law PB1 Not disclosed Transfer to OGD Not disclosed Transfer in Division Director Projects BMT PB1 Not disclosed Retirement — Secondment Defence Services opportunity not filled Head of International PB1 Not disclosed Retirement Not disclosed Internal move Policy and Planning Head of Veterans Services PB1 Not disclosed Reverted to Band B Not disclosed Inward Loan Head Strategic Defence PB1 Not disclosed Transfer to CO Vacant — and Security Review Nuclear Commercial Director PB1 Not disclosed Retirement — NATO post not filled NATO Eurofighter and by UK Tornado Management Agency Head Secretariat Defence PB1 Not disclosed Reverted to Band B Not disclosed Internal move Equipment and Support Private Secretary, Secretary PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Not disclosed Internal move of State Head Commercial PB1 Not declared Before May Not disclosed Re-instatement Assurance and Governance Head Financial PB1 Not declared Long term sick Not disclosed Return to MOD Accounting Head Finance Submarines PB1 New post Not disclosed Temp promotion Head Programmes and PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Not disclosed Temp promotion Technology Group Centre of Excellence Head Employment PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Not disclosed Temp promotion Framework Head Finance Information PB1 — New post Not disclosed Temp promotion Systems Services Head Submarine PB1 — New post Not disclosed Temp promotion Enterprise Performance Programmes Director Science and PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Not disclosed In ward loan Technology Chief Scientific Adviser, Strategic Adviser Director Transformation PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Post discontinued Ships Head Acquisition and PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Not disclosed Internal move Business Learning 871W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 872W

Pay Band 1—Details of SCS movements from may 2010 to January 2011 Name of post Pay band Former incumbent Reason for change New incumbent Comment

Head of Boards Secretariat PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Not disclosed Internal move Assistant Chief of Staff J8 PB1 — New post Not disclosed Internal move Permanent Joint HQ Deputy Command PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Not disclosed Internal move Secretary Permanent Joint HQ Head Technology Delivery PB1 Not disclosed Loan to Dstl Post discontinued — Head Special Forces and PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Not disclosed Internal move Operational Legal Policy Head of Assistance and PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Not disclosed Internal move assurance Defence Equipment and Support Head Future submarines PB1 Not disclosed Internal move — Post not filled at SCS Level Head Suppliers Relation PB1 Not disclosed Internal move — Post discontinued Team Head of Defence PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Not disclosed Internal move Intelligence Strategic Assessments Head Defence Intelligence PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Not disclosed Internal move Development and Support Head Plans and PB1 Was filled by military — Not disclosed Internal move Programmes Defence Equipment and Support Head International PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Vacant — Acquisition Policy Chief Information Officer PB1 — New post Not disclosed Internal move Corporate Service Systems Head Financial PB1 Not disclosed Internal move Vacant — Management Information Systems Head Finance, Combat Air PB1 — New post Not disclosed Internal move Special Adviser 1 PB1 — New post Not disclosed Joined Dept Special Adviser 2 PB1 — New post Not disclosed Joined Dept

The following table details moves at SCS Pay Band 2 roles where it was not, and salary details as published in and above, using names where consent was received departmental transparency data within £5,000 bands. It under the Transparency agenda from individuals and also provides details of the nature of the move:

Pay Band 2 and above—details of SCS movements from may 2010 to January 2011 Former Reason for Salary band New Method of Salary band Name of post Pay band incumbent change (£) incumbent filling post (£)

Director Corporate PB2 D Ball Internal 95,000 to Post — Service Delivery Strategy move 99,999 discontinued Director Human PB2 — Was filled by — D Ball Internal 95,000 to Resources, Defence military move 99,999 Equipment and Support Minister (Defence PB2 P Turner Internal 85,000 to W Jessett Promotion 80,000 to Material) British Defence move 89,999 84,999 Staff Washington Director Commercial PB2 Not declared Prior to May — M Greatwich Temp 90,000 to Services promotion 94,999 Director Research and PB2 — New Post — C Mace Internal 125,000 to Technology Operations move 129,999 Director Centre Top Level PB2 D Stephens Internal 95,000 to L Tulett Inward loan 90,000 to Budget move 99,999 94,999 Director Financial PB2 T Jagger Internal 125,000 to D Williams Return to 90,000 to Management move 129,999 MOD 94,999 Chief of Staff Defence PB2 J Lycett Reverted to 80,000 to Merged with Equipment and Support PB1 84,999 another post Command Secretary PB2 N Evans Retirement 100,000 to D Stephens Internal 95,000 to (Resources) Land Forces 104,999 move 99,999 Command Secretary PB2 D Johnson Reverted to 80,000 to P Turner Internal 85,000 to (Secretarial) Land Forces PB1 84,999 move 89,999 Chief Defence Material PB3 (FTA) — Was filled by — B Gray Joined Dept 220,000 to Military 224,999 873W Written Answers2 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 874W

Pay Band 2 and above—details of SCS movements from may 2010 to January 2011 Former Reason for Salary band New Method of Salary band Name of post Pay band incumbent change (£) incumbent filling post (£)

2nd Permanent Under PB4 U Brennan Internal 155,000 to J Day Internal 155,000 to Secretary Promotion 159,999 promotion 159,999 Permanent Under PB4 B Jeffrey Retirement 174,999 to U Brennan Internal 180,000 to Secretary 180,000 promotion 184,999

Departmental Visits Abroad Nick Harvey: I refer the hon. Member to the Secretary of State for Defence’s comments during debates in the Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for House on 2 November 2010, Official Report, column 787, Defence what overseas visits he undertook in the last six and 4 November 2010, Official Report, columns 1071-72. months; what the (a) country and place visited, (b) We maintain robust contingency plans for times of date, (c) meetings attended during the visit, (d) names crisis which would draw on a range of capabilities that of other individuals attending such meetings and (e) may be appropriate for such an operation. However, I purpose of each meeting was in each case; and if he will am not prepared to go into detail. make a statement. [37793] War Pensions Dr Fox: The information is being collated. I will write Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for to the hon. Member as soon as it is available. Defence how many people living in (a) Brecon and Ex-servicemen: Radiation Exposure Radnorshire constituency, (b) Wales and (c) the UK are in receipt of (i) a War Pension and (ii) payments Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for from the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme. [37522] Defence if he will assess the likely effect of the conclusions of the Redfern Inquiry into examination of tissue from Mr Robathan: The War Pension scheme (WPS) provides nuclear industry workers on his Department’s policy on no fault compensation to former service personnel and nuclear test veterans. [37726] their dependants for illness, injury or death as a result of service from the start of the first world war in 1914 up Mr Robathan [holding answer 1 February 2011]: The until 5 April 2005. Redfern Inquiry Report makes clear that the Atomic As at 30 September 2010, 265 individuals in the Weapons Establishment and the Ministry of Defence’s parliamentary constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire, involvement in these cases is believed to have been very 9,895 individuals in Wales and 162,575 individuals in limited, and, in most cases, was primarily to arrange for the UK were receiving an ongoing pension under the analysis of tissue samples at the request of individual WPS. coroners. It is our view that the findings of the Inquiry The Armed Forces and Reserve Forces Compensation are not relevant to broader policy on nuclear test veterans, scheme (AFCS) was introduced on 6 April 2005 to as the findings relate solely to the analysis of tissue provide compensation to service personnel and their samples from up to 15 individuals compared to some dependants for illness, injury or death as a result of 28,000 that took part in the tests. The Redfern Report service from this date. does not record any of the analyses as being productive As at 30 September 2010, fewer than five individuals in determining the cause of death. We do not believe in the parliamentary constituency of Brecon and that there are any wider conclusions that can be drawn Radnorshire, 35 individuals in Wales and 485 individuals that would be relevant to the nuclear test veterans’ in the UK were receiving either guaranteed income situation as a group or to any individual appeals currently payments (GIP) or survivor’s guaranteed income payments before the War Pensions Tribunal. (SGIP) under the AFCS. Falkland Islands: Armed Forces Notes: 1. Guaranteed income payment (GIP)—regular payment to service Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for person to provide a continuous income stream. Defence what ability the armed forces will retain to 2. Survivor’s guaranteed income payment (SGIP)—regular payment re-take the Falkland Islands in the event of their to surviving dependant(s) to provide continuous financial support. occupation during the next 10 years. [36589] 3. All figures have rounded to the nearest five. 9MC Ministerial Corrections2 FEBRUARY 2011 Ministerial Corrections 10MC

themselves—that is what democratic accountability is Ministerial Correction about, and that is the primary aim. However, we will save money. The changes to the public body landscape Wednesday 2 February 2011 planned and announced by the previous Government, of whom the right hon. Gentleman was such a distinguished ornament, were much more minor than the changes that we are undertaking. That Government claimed CABINET OFFICE that those changes would save £500 million a year; our Public Bodies changes are much more radical and will save a great deal more. The following is the answer given by the Minister for [Official Report, 19 January 2011, Vol. 521, c. 827.] the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Maude) relating to a question from the right hon. Member for Letter of correction from Mr Maude: Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) during Cabinet Office Question An error has been identified in the oral answer given Time on 19 January 2011. on 19 January 2011. Mr Bradshaw: While “The King’s Speech” is rightly The correct answer should have been: being feted all around the world, the right hon. Gentleman’s Government are abolishing the organisations here in Mr Maude: Just to be clear, the purpose of these Britain that helped to make that film happen, as part reforms is to increase accountability. The Government of what even the Conservative-dominated Public will not simply create incontinently new independent Administration Committee has described as a “botched” bodies in order to avoid Ministers having to make and bonfire of the quangos. Given that he cannot even say defend uncomfortable decisions. Ministers should be how much, if anything, this is going to cost, is it not prepared to make those decisions and defend them typical of what the Government are doing in so many themselves—that is what democratic accountability is areas—ill considered, ill thought through, rushed and about, and that is the primary aim. However, we will damaging? save money. The changes to the public body landscape planned and announced by the previous Government, Mr Maude: Just to be clear, the purpose of these of whom the right hon. Gentleman was such a distinguished reforms is to increase accountability. The Government ornament, were much more minor than the changes will not simply create incontinently new independent that we are undertaking. That Government claimed bodies in order to avoid Ministers having to make and that those changes would save £500 million over three defend uncomfortable decisions. Ministers should be years; our changes are much more radical and will save prepared to make those decisions and defend them a great deal more.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 2 February 2011

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 850 WALES—continued Engagements...... 850 Driving Standards Agency ...... 844 Economic Growth...... 849 WALES...... 841 Great Western Main Line ...... 841 Apprentices...... 847 Groceries Code Adjudicator ...... 850 Aviation Industry...... 846 Inward Investment ...... 843 Comprehensive Spending Review...... 845 Inward Investment ...... 848 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 2 February 2011

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 45WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 46WS “A Cross-Government Mental Health Outcomes Tackling Knife, Gun and Gang Crime ...... 46WS Strategy for People of All Ages” ...... 45WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 2 February 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 804W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued Business Plans...... 804W Departmental Marketing ...... 818W Crown Prosecution Service: Extradition ...... 804W Digital Broadcasting ...... 818W Departmental Equality ...... 805W Holiday Accommodation...... 818W Public Expenditure...... 805W Holidays...... 819W Horserace Betting Levy Board ...... 819W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 826W Industrial Health and Safety...... 820W Adult Learning Grant...... 826W Libraries: Postgraduate Education...... 820W Banks: Loans ...... 826W Music: Licensing...... 820W Fair Trading Act 1973 ...... 826W Tourism...... 821W Furs: Labelling...... 827W Tourism: Coastal Areas...... 821W Insolvency: Regulation...... 827W Local Enterprise Partnerships: Midlands...... 827W DEFENCE...... 862W Manufacturing Industries: EC Countries...... 828W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 862W Manufacturing Industries: Immigration Rules ...... 828W Africa: Military Aid...... 863W Money Lenders: Crime ...... 828W Aircraft Carriers: Training ...... 863W Office of Fair Trading ...... 829W Armed Forces: Allowances...... 863W Office of Fair Trading: Inspections ...... 830W Armed Forces: Compensation...... 864W Armed Forces: Conditions of Employment ...... 865W CABINET OFFICE...... 814W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 865W Cancer ...... 814W Armed Forces: Injuries...... 865W Economic Situation: Derby...... 815W Armed Forces: Location ...... 866W Hospitals: Mortality Rates...... 816W Armed Forces: Mental Health ...... 866W Politics and Government: Public Participation...... 816W Armed Forces: Pensions...... 866W Solvents: Misuse ...... 816W Armed Forces: Young People...... 867W Departmental Marketing ...... 868W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 823W Departmental Senior Civil Servants...... 868W Audit Commission: Conferences...... 823W Departmental Visits Abroad ...... 873W Audit Commission: Official Hospitality...... 824W Ex-servicemen: Radiation Exposure...... 873W Departmental Internet ...... 824W Falkland Islands: Armed Forces ...... 873W Departments: Credit Cards ...... 824W War Pensions ...... 874W Gardens: Property Development...... 824W Heathrow Airport ...... 825W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 812W Home Information Packs...... 825W Alternative Vote: Referendums...... 812W Housing: Halifax...... 825W Lord-Lieutenants ...... 813W Localism Bill...... 825W Solar Power: Brownfield Sites ...... 826W EDUCATION...... 837W Academies...... 837W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 817W Building Schools for the Future Programme ...... 838W Copyright: Internet ...... 817W College of Social Work ...... 838W Departmental Libraries...... 818W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 838W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION—continued HOME DEPARTMENT...... 783W Departmental Official Cars...... 839W Departmental Art Works ...... 783W Departmental Pay ...... 839W Departmental Regulation...... 783W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 839W Driving Offences ...... 784W Departmental Working Conditions...... 840W Entry Clearances: Bangladesh...... 784W Education Maintenance Allowance...... 840W Entry Clearances: Republic of Ireland ...... 784W Education Maintenance Allowance: Halifax...... 841W Entry Clearances: Shipping...... 785W Education Maintenance Allowance: North Forensic Science...... 785W Yorkshire ...... 841W Human Trafficking ...... 786W Education Maintenance Allowance: Sussex ...... 842W Licensed Premises: Alcoholic Drinks ...... 786W General Practitioners ...... 843W Members: Correspondence ...... 787W Music: Education...... 843W Police: Noise ...... 788W New Schools Network...... 843W Tattooing: Children...... 788W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 844W Schools: Biometrics...... 847W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 783W Students: Finance ...... 847W Electric Vehicles ...... 783W Teachers: Conditions of Employment...... 847W Teachers: Redundancy ...... 847W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 810W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 848W Afghanistan: Females...... 810W Departmental Libraries...... 810W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 848W Departmental Marketing ...... 811W Departmental Regulation...... 848W Departmental Regulation...... 811W Energy Supply...... 848W International Labour Organisation ...... 811W Fuel Oil...... 849W United Nations Convention Against Corruption ... 811W Industrial Health and Safety...... 849W Liquefied Petroleum Gas ...... 850W JUSTICE...... 791W Natural Gas: Drilling...... 850W Appeals: Employment and Support Allowance...... 791W Natural Gas: Reserves...... 850W Civil Law...... 793W Urenco: Mutual Societies...... 851W Courts: Travellers...... 794W Departmental Libraries...... 794W Insurance ...... 794W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Prisoners: Armed Forces...... 795W AFFAIRS...... 788W Prisoners: Rehabilitation...... 796W Bees...... 788W Prisons: Christmas ...... 796W Bees: Urban Areas ...... 789W Supreme Court...... 796W Departmental Regulations ...... 789W Farmers...... 790W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 822W Forestry Commission...... 791W Departmental Libraries...... 822W UK Forestry Standard ...... 791W SCOTLAND...... 822W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 807W Departmental Regulations ...... 822W Afghanistan: Females...... 807W Departmental Official Cars...... 807W TRANSPORT ...... 799W Kashmir...... 808W Cycling...... 799W Personnel: Education ...... 808W Electric Vehicles ...... 799W Tunisia: Politics and Government ...... 809W Electric Vehicles: Rural Areas ...... 800W War Crimes: Kosovo Liberation Army...... 809W Freight Facilities Grant Scheme ...... 800W High Speed Trains: Property ...... 800W HEALTH...... 851W HM Coastguard...... 801W Alcoholic Drinks: Bexley ...... 851W Leeds-Bradford Airport ...... 801W Arthritis ...... 851W Motor Vehicles: Licensing...... 801W Breast Cancer: Drugs...... 852W Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation...... 802W Business Interests...... 852W Rescue Services ...... 802W Departmental Libraries...... 853W Road Works ...... 802W Departmental Marketing ...... 853W Speed Limits: Fines...... 802W Departmental Secondment ...... 853W Trust Ports ...... 803W Deviance and Behaviour Disorders: Day Centres... 854W Tyres: Snow and Ice ...... 804W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 854W General Practitioners ...... 855W TREASURY ...... 835W General Practitioners: Ashton-in-Makerfield...... 855W Departmental Marketing ...... 835W General Practitioners: Blackpool ...... 856W Departmental Public Appointments...... 835W Haemophilia ...... 856W Double Taxation: Scotland ...... 836W Health and Social Care Bill...... 858W Excise Duties: Fuels ...... 836W Health Services: Ex-servicemen...... 858W Inflation...... 837W Mental Health Services: Ex-servicemen ...... 859W Petrol: Prices ...... 837W Post-traumatic Stress Disorder...... 859W Prescriptions: Fees and Charges...... 860W WALES...... 806W Primary Health Care...... 860W Comprehensive Spending Review...... 806W Prostate Gland: Medical Treatments...... 860W Consultants...... 807W Sickle Cell Diseases: Greater London ...... 861W Disability Living Allowance...... 806W Speech Therapy: Departmental Coordination...... 861W Localism Bill...... 806W Col. No. Col. No. WALES—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Ministerial Visits...... 807W Housing Benefit: Scotland ...... 832W Remploy...... 806W Industrial Health and Safety...... 832W Insolvency...... 833W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 830W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 833W Departmental Manpower...... 830W Older Workers: Scotland ...... 834W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 831W Social Security Benefits: Prisoners ...... 834W Employment and Support Allowance: Cancer ...... 831W Universal Credit...... 834W Employment: Young People...... 831W Work Capability Assessment...... 835W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 2 February 2011

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 2 February 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 841] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

High Pay Commission [Col. 862] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Tony Lloyd)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [10th allotted day] Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Performance) [Col. 865] Motion—(Mr Denham)—on a Division, negatived

Public Forest Estate (England) [Col. 925] Motion—(Mary Creagh)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Mrs Spelman)—on a Division, agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Court of Auditors 2009 Report [Col. 979] Motion to take note of EC document—(Justine Greening)—agreed to

Hospice Care [Col. 1004] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) [Col. 265WH] Children’s Centres [Col. 288WH] Coastguard Service [Col. 296WH] Myalgic Encephalomyelitis [Col. 323WH] Police Funding (Devon and Cornwall) [Col. 331WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 45WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 783W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 9MC]