Tird Session, 41st Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES (HANSARD)

Monday, October 22, 2018 Afernoon Sitting Issue No. 164

THE HONOURABLE DARRYL PLECAS, SPEAKER

ISSN 1499-2175 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC

Third Session, 41st Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Darryl Plecas

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Carole James Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Attorney General...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens’ Services...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ...... Hon. Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy...... Hon. Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ...... Hon. Minister of Health ...... Hon. Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Trade and Technology...... Hon. Minister of State for Trade...... Hon. Minister of Labour ...... Hon. Minister of Mental Health and Addictions...... Hon. Minister of Municipal Afairs and Housing...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Ofcial Opposition...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Leader of the Tird Party ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Deputy Speaker...... Raj Chouhan Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Linda Reid Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Clerk Assistant — Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ...... Susan Sourial Sessional Law Clerk...... Loredana Catalli-Sonier, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Penticton Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford South ...... Hon. Darryl Plecas Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Abbotsford West ...... Michael de Jong, QC Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Boundary-Similkameen...... Linda Larson Begg, Garry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Guildford Burnaby–Deer Lake ...... Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Katrina Chen Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Burnaby North...... Janet Routledge Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)...... Surrey South Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Donna Barnett Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End Cariboo North ...... Coralee Oakes Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Chilliwack...... John Martin Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack-Kent...... Laurie Troness Chow, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fraserview Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Doug Clovechok Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Joan Isaacs Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Langley East Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Hon. Selina Robinson Conroy, Hon. Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Courtenay-Comox ...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Darcy, Hon. Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley ...... Sonia Furstenau Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Delta North ...... de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Delta South...... Ian Paton Dean, Mitzi (NDP)...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Esquimalt-Metchosin...... D’Eith, Bob (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Jackie Tegart Dix, Hon. Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Tompson...... Peter Milobar Donaldson, Hon. Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Tompson ...... Todd Stone Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Kelowna–Lake Country...... Norm Letnick Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Steve Tomson Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kelowna West...... Ben Stewart Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay East ...... Tom Shypitka Foster, Eric (BC Liberal)...... Vernon-Monashee Kootenay West ...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Fraser, Hon. Scott (NDP) ...... Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Langford–Juan de Fuca...... Hon. John Horgan Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ...... Cowichan Valley Langley...... Mary Polak Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Langley East ...... Glumac, Rick (NDP)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Bob D’Eith Heyman, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Hon. Lisa Beare Horgan, Hon. John (NDP) ...... Langford–Juan de Fuca Mid Island–Pacifc Rim ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Nanaimo ...... Leonard Eugene Krog Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley James, Hon. Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Nechako Lakes ...... John Rustad Johal, Jas (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Queensborough Nelson-Creston...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)...... Delta North New Westminster ...... Hon. Judy Darcy Kang, Anne (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake North Coast...... Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ...... Nanaimo North Island ...... Hon. Claire Trevena Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)...... Shuswap North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Tornthwaite Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ...... Courtenay-Comox Parksville-Qualicum ...... Michelle Stilwell Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Peace River North...... Dan Davies Ma, Bowinn (NDP)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Peace River South...... Mike Bernier Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Penticton...... Dan Ashton Martin, John (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack Port Coquitlam ...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–North Tompson Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Rick Glumac Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Mungall, Hon. Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Mike Morris Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount...... Shirley Bond Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)...... Saanich North and the Islands Richmond North Centre ...... Teresa Wat Paton, Ian (BC Liberal)...... Delta South Richmond-Queensborough ...... Jas Johal Plecas, Hon. Darryl (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South Richmond South Centre...... Linda Reid Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston...... John Yap Popham, Hon. Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Saanich North and the Islands...... Adam Olsen Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South...... Hon. Lana Popham Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Shuswap ...... Greg Kyllo Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond South Centre Skeena ...... Ellis Ross Rice, Jennifer (NDP)...... North Coast Stikine ...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Robinson, Hon. Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale...... Marvin Hunt Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)...... Skeena Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Jagrup Brar Routledge, Janet (NDP)...... Burnaby North Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Rachna Singh Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Guildford ...... Garry Begg Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton...... Hon. Harry Bains Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Surrey-Panorama...... Hon. Jinny Sims Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey South...... Stephanie Cadieux Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley...... Hon. Bruce Ralston Sims, Hon. Jinny (NDP) ...... Surrey-Panorama Surrey–White Rock...... Tracy Redies Singh, Rachna (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Vancouver-Fairview ...... Hon. George Heyman Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna West Vancouver–False Creek...... Sam Sullivan Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. George Chow Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–South Tompson Vancouver-Hastings ...... Hon. Shane Simpson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Kensington ...... Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kingsway ...... Hon. Adrian Dix Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Langara ...... Michael Lee Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Hon. Melanie Mark Tomson, Steve (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. David Eby, QC Tornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Troness, Laurie (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack-Kent Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond North Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Hon. Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (BC Green Party) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake ...... Hon. Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Ralph Sultan Yap, John (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Jordan Sturdy

Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; BC Green Party 3; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Monday, October 22, 2018 Afernoon Sitting Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 5749

Tributes ...... 5750 Len Fox J. Rustad

Introductions by Members...... 5750

Tributes ...... 5750 John Savage I. Paton

Introductions by Members...... 5750

Introduction and First Reading of Bills...... 5751 Bill 49 — Professional Governance Act Hon. G. Heyman

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 5752 Taiwan Chamber of Commerce in B.C. A. Kang Energy-efcient rental housing project in Pemberton J. Sturdy School libraries and promotion of reading and literacy N. Simons Kathy O’Connor and advocacy for college of counselling therapists T. Redies Raj Chouhan and advocacy for farmworkers and human rights R. Kahlon Jody Paterson and Board Voice Society L. Reid

Oral Questions...... 5754 Municipal election results and transit services in Surrey A. Wilkinson Hon. J. Horgan M. Hunt Access to family physicians and services at walk-in clinics A. Olsen Hon. A. Dix Municipal election results and Massey Tunnel replacement project I. Paton Hon. J. Horgan Release of report on Massey Tunnel replacement project J. Johal Hon. J. Horgan Municipal election results and real estate speculation tax S. Bond Hon. C. James M. Stilwell Impact of real estate speculation tax on housing starts T. Stone Hon. C. James

Petitions ...... 5758 J. Tornthwaite Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills ...... 5759 Bill 45 — Budget Measures Implementation (Speculation and Vacancy Tax) Act, 2018 (continued) J. Tornthwaite Hon. J. Sims R. Sultan L. Troness Hon. D. Eby T. Redies Hon. C. James Bill 42 — Assessment Amendment Act, 2018 Hon. S. Robinson T. Stone A. Olsen P. Milobar S. Chandra Herbert C. Oakes Hon. S. Robinson Bill 43 — Miscellaneous Statutes (Minor Corrections) Amendment Act, 2018 Hon. D. Eby M. Lee A. Weaver Hon. D. Eby Bill 40 — Electoral Reform Referendum 2018 Amendment Act, 2018 (continued) On the amendment (continued) G. Kyllo M. Bernier M. Morris J. Tornthwaite R. Singh D. Barnett 5749

MONDAY, OCTOBER 22, 2018 Hon. J. Horgan: Joining us on the foor today is someone no stranger to question period. It’s been a while since he’s Te House met at 1:35 p.m. had to answer any questions, and I don’t think any will be coming his way. But he was the Minister of Forests; he was [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] the Minister of Labour; he was the Minister of Municipal Afairs; he was the Minister of Employment and Investment. Routine Business He was also, for a period of time, the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, and he was our 32nd Introductions by Members Premier. It’s my friend Dan Miller, the former member for North Coast, with great respect to the current member for Hon. G. Heyman: It gives me great pleasure to introduce North Coast. a number of guests who have come here today to observe Dan Miller is here today to make sure that I answer all question period. the questions succinctly and with a good message behind it. Joining us from the Engineers and Geoscientists of B.C. is Would the House please make him very, very welcome. their newly elected president, as of Saturday, Kathy Tarnai- Lokhorst; from the B.C. Institute of Agrologists — J.P.Ellson, J. Tornthwaite: I have a very special constituent in the the executive director; from the College of Applied Biology gallery today. Glen Grigg is the chair of the Federation of — Christine Houghton, the executive director, Brian Clark, Associations for Counselling Terapists of British Columbia. president, and Derek Marcoux, the registrar; from the I wish that the House would make him welcome. Applied Science Technologists and Technicians of B.C., oth- erwise known as ASTTBC — Teresa McCurry, the chief Hon. R. Fleming: In the gallery with us, we have two executive ofcer, and Sarah Campden, the vice-president; special guests today who are doing great work around pro- from the Association of B.C. Forest Professionals — moting STEM education to K-to-12 students in British Christine Gelowitz, the chief executive ofcer, and Robin Columbia, both of whom work for Science World, a vener- Modesto, the president; from Tolko Industries — Tom Hof- able science institution that has been doing this work pro- man, the manager of external and stakeholder relations; moting science education and curriculum to young people from the professional reliance working group of concerns in B.C. for over 30 years now. Sarah Chow is with us here. citizens — Bob Peart, coordinator. She’s worked in science, I believe, for over ten years at Also here is Mark Haddock, the independent author of the Science World. She’s also a personality on the Discovery professional reliance review commissioned by government. Channel. Also in the precinct with us, and possibly in the House, With her is Chelsea Stoyt, a science educator who has is the Professional Employees Association and their execut- taught all over the world and is now part of Science World’s ive director, Melissa Moroz. Tey are, of course, the accred- On the Road team. We had the On the Road team here this ited bargaining agent for government employees, profession- morning to entertain and educate a group of young people, al licensed professionals. students from South Park elementary school. It was a fant- Finally, in the gallery are some guests from my ministry astic performance, just showing what they can do and what observing question period. I think, for his very frst time, they do in our school system. Deputy Minister Mark Zacharias. Also with us is Jennifer I’d ask the House to make these two young women most McGuire, the assistant deputy minister of environmental welcome here today. sustainability and strategic policy; Leon Gaber, the director [1:40 p.m.] of the professional reliance review; and Peter Trotzki, the director of legislation. A. Kang: I have several very special guests from the Will the House please join me in making all of our guests Taiwanese commerce community. Tey will be spending very, very welcome. their day here at the Legislature learning about how the province works and meeting with members from all sides of A. Wilkinson: We tend to forget that the elected mem- the House. bers of this assembly are only part of the function of the As well, I understand that in Taiwan, there was a terrible Legislature, because in every constituency, of course, there incident just yesterday in Yilan County, with a train derail- are the constituency ofces, which serve the people of the ment. My condolences to their citizens. province directly. With that, I would like to introduce Andy Chen, the dir- We’re very glad to have amongst us about 60 constituency ector general of Taipei Economic and Cultural Ofce; Suzie assistants here who are visiting Victoria. I need only make Chen, division director of TECO; Ruth Chang, director of clear their role by pointing to the weather. When they Taiwan External Trade Development Council; Eric Yang, the arrived, it was cold and grey and opaque, and within a couple president of Taiwan Chamber of Commerce in B.C.; Tony of hours, it’s clear and blue and transparent and beautiful. Tsao, the vice-president; Esther Yu, the vice-president; and Tank you. Angie Tsai, the treasurer. 5750 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018

Other members and directors are here today: Shan Tseng; Len Fox several weeks ago. Len served in this Legislature in Wendy Chang; Dennis Chiang; Sunny Chen; Jefery Lin; the early 1990s and was one of the last Socreds to be elected. Tony Lin; Benny Chen; Ray Kuo; Gary Yang; Jonathan Wu; Len, in his youth, loved hockey but, unfortunately, couldn’t Anthony Chou and his wife, Wen Yin Chen, and his two aford a pair of skates. So he played goalie, wearing gum- little guys, Chen Ray Chou and baby Chen Jen Chou. boots, which was, of course, very interesting. Would the House please make everyone feel very wel- Later, of course, he became a school trustee and served come. two terms as a trustee, including the board chair; served on municipal council; three terms as mayor in Vanderhoof; T. Redies: I am delighted today to introduce a very special started a Ford dealership called Fox Ford in Vanderhoof, and constituent of mine, Kathy O’Connor, who is visiting from many other accomplishments over his time. White Rock today. Kathy is here with Glen Grigg of FACT- So it’s sad that on October 6, he was diagnosed with an BC and is an advocate for the establishment of a college of aggressive form of ALS and passed away 36 hours later, with counselling therapists. I am going to be speaking about her a his family. Len will be missed, but I know that his accom- little bit later today. plishments will not be forgotten. [1:45 p.m.] B. D’Eith: I just wanted to say a welcome to a very good friend who I have known for many, many years. His name is Introductions by Members J.P. Ellson. He’s in the audience now. We actually spent many years together working in the music industry. He was the Hon. J. Sims: I would also like to add my words of wel- executive director of Sask Music, and I was the executive dir- come to one of my constituents who is here today with ector of Music B.C. We are both past chairs of the Western Taiwanese commerce group that is here, and that is Yu- Canadian Music Awards. We’ve managed to reel him out to Shan Tseng. I just met her recently. Not only is she living in the west coast. Now, of course, he’s executive director of the my constituency; she’s practically my next-door neighbour. British Columbia Institute of Agrologists. I would like every- Please join me in welcoming her to this House. one to make him feel very welcome. Tributes Hon. H. Bains: I’m really happy to welcome a delegation from the Canadian Union of Public Employees — Andrew JOHN SAVAGE Ledger, president of CUPE 1004, representing over 3,000 members performing all kinds of services across Metro Van- I. Paton: Also on a sad note today, I’d like to pass along…. couver; and Sheryl Burns, president of CUPE 1936, repres- Roughly last spring I did a two-minute statement on the enting 1,200 community social services workers throughout wonderful life of a former Ag Minister, John Savage. John the Lower Mainland. Joining them from the CUPE B.C. fought through some health issues several years ago and was ofce is Justin Schmid. doing very well. I am looking forward to having a meeting with them later I’m so shocked. I spoke to him just a week ago in Lad- on today to speak about workers health and safety and a ner, in his car outside of the Safeway store. Unfortunately, number of other issues that they may have, to make life bet- John passed away peacefully in his sleep, unexpectedly, on ter for the working people in this province. Please help me Friday night. welcome them. Te loss of a great agriculturist, a great farmer, a great farm name in Delta — John Savage. D. Barnett: I have two guests here today, a young lady named Barb Marks…. Her dad was the frst mayor of the Introductions by Members district of 100 Mile House, and she now lives in the Lower Mainland. I would like you to help me welcome her here G. Kyllo: We’re joined today by Judy Higney and Bonny today. Mumford. Tey’ve come all the way from Nova Scotia, and Also, Mr. Tom Hofman, who was here today meeting they share a sister — my constituency assistant, Holly Cow- with the minister, is a constituent of mine in the Cariboo- an. Would the House please make them feel very welcome. Chilcotin. He lives in Williams Lake — a great Rotarian and advocate for our community. R. Kahlon: I would like to rise to make an introduction. Welcome, Tom. I am a new uncle. My cousin had a beautiful baby girl on October 20, at one in the morning, afer 12 hours of labour Tributes — 8 pounds, 4 ounces — Vera Atwal. Mom, Sumeet, and dad, Muneer, are all doing great. LEN FOX It’s nice to become a māmā, as we say. It’s “uncle” in Pun- jabi. J. Rustad: I rise today on a bit of a sad note, the passing of Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5751

I’d like to ask the House to please make wonderful Vera Introduction and First Reading of Bills Atwal welcome to this House. BILL 49 — PROFESSIONAL L. Reid: I have Georgina Patko in the gallery today. Geor- GOVERNANCE ACT gina and I share a tremendous passion around Pathways Clubhouse. She’s a Richmond treasure. She’s relocated to Hon. G. Heyman presented a message from Her Honour Vancouver Island. She’s going to guide the development of the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Professional that as we speak. Please make her very, very welcome. Governance Act. I’d also ask the House to join me in wishing the very hap- piest of birthdays to Shelley Leonhardt. Hon. G. Heyman: I move that the bill be introduced and read a frst time now. Hon. J. Horgan: I’ve mentioned that former Premier Dan Te proposed Professional Governance Act has been pre- Miller is here. We had a lovely lunch together. Te reason for pared afer extensive consultation and consideration by our the lunch wasn’t so much for Dan and I to get together. I can government of the frst two recommendations made in the fnd him at the Trify’s any weekend, as everyone else does. independent report on professional reliance and natural We were joined by the staf that Dan inherited in 1991, resource decision-making. who had previously worked for the former Social Credit gov- Tis proposed act will ensure that best practices for pro- ernment and continued to work, afer the NDP was defeated, fessional governance are defned collaboratively and are for the Liberal government. Tese are three outstanding implemented by the professional regulators that are within individuals who devoted their entire professional life to the scope of the act. Tis will include standardizing the serving people in this Legislature. Tey are Serena Costa, structure and functions of regulatory counsels, requiring Debbie Wade and the irrepressible Bert Willing. Would the continuing professional development of all professionals, House please make all three of them very welcome. setting clear confict of interest requirements, high ethical standards of professional conduct and enabling practice M. Lee: I would also like to rise in this House to welcome authorities to all fve regulated professions. four visitors from Surrey, friends of mine in the community, Te act will increase public transparency by providing who have been very active and involved in our political pro- express authority for ministries to proactively disclose natur- cess. I thank them for all of their eforts in our community: al resource information. Te act will also strengthen govern- Amarjeet Grewal, Sukhpal Mangat, Kirpal Mangat, Surinder ment oversight for professional regulatory bodies by estab- Pal Singh Mahal. lishing a dedicated statutory ofce of the superintendent of professional governance to replace the current responsibility S. Furstenau: I have two sets of introductions to make residing in a number of ministries. today, one in each of our ofcial languages. First of all, I’d If this bill is enacted, the intention is to bring it into force like to echo the Minister of Environment’s welcome to the in stages, starting next year. Te initial stage of implementa- fve professional associations here today: the engineers and tion would enable the ofce and its policy, guidance, invest- geoscientists, the agrologists, the biologists, the applied sci- igation and enforcement functions, and bring key provisions ence technologists and technicians, and the Association of of the act into force, such as whistleblower protection. B.C. Foresters, as well as Tolko Industries and the Profes- During the implementation transition period, these sional Employees Association. authorities would operate alongside the existing governance I’m delighted that Mark Haddock, the hard-working statutes of fve professional regulatory bodies — the agro- author of the professional reliance review, is also here today, logists, applied biologists, applied science technologists and as is Bob Peart, a longtime champion for the environment. technicians, engineers in geoscience, scientists and forestry Je souhaite aussi la bienvenue aux étudiants et aux ensei- professionals. Te intention is that regulations will be gnants venus d’Angers, en France. Il y a 40 étudiants du lycée developed to support full implementation of the new act, at Sacré-Coeur et leurs professeurs Jérémie Cotteverte, Corrine which time the fve governance statutes will be repealed. Busson et Crystèle Beillouet. Nous sommes ravis de vous avoir aujourd’hui à la législature et nous espérons que votre Mr. Speaker: Te question is frst reading of the bill. visite sera à la fois informative et agréable. Motion approved. [French text provided by S. Furstenau.] Hon. G. Heyman: I move that this bill be placed on the Would the House please make all of these people wel- Orders of the Day for second reading at the next sitting of come. the House afer today. [1:50 p.m.] Bill 49, Professional Governance Act, introduced, read a frst time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for 5752 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 second reading at the next sitting of the House afer today. green roofs, community garden, energy-efcient heating and cooling systems, built of long-term, durable, low-mainten- Statements (Standing Order 25B) ance materials. Vidorra Developments has integrated all energy costs into the rent, so tenants have a reliable and TAIWAN CHAMBER OF COMMERCE IN B.C. stable housing cost out into the future. Vidorra has also partnered with BCIT centre for building A. Kang: Today it is my great pleasure to recognize the excellence, and through a Mitacs accelerant grant, graduate contributions of many small businesses from the Taiwan students with BCIT were able to model the building and Chamber of Commerce in B.C. make recommendations on areas where energy efciency TCCBC is a non-proft organization founded in 1992. It improvements were possible that would have the most currently has close to 1,000 members, with categories such impact on operational and maintenance costs. as accountants and lawyers, retail stores, insurance, fnancial Early results suggest that the rental homes at Radius are agencies, construction, developers, cellular accessories like trending to be more than 40 percent more efcient than Mr.Com and supermarkets such as T&T, and many more. either a passive house or step 5 of the 2032 B.C. step code. In Te mission of TCCBC is to consolidate and strengthen real terms, that means total energy costs of about $1.20 per the experience of the Taiwanese business community and to day per unit, all in, which supports a sustainable building for bridge the gap between other local business groups. both tenants and landlord. TCCBC works closely with local charity groups and Tere’s no question that a supportive municipality, by way encourages its members to contribute back to communities. of the village of Pemberton, prioritized and facilitated the Jason Ko of Viva Pharmaceuticals has contributed millions development of these new, much-needed rental homes. of dollars to VGH and UBC Hospital Foundation and other Vidorra Developments and BCIT should also be recognized local charities. for their collaboration and commitment in improving design TCCBC doesn’t work alone. Together with the Taipei Eco- and construction methods and leading the way in one of the nomic and Cultural Ofce, which is TECO, and Taiwan best rental housing products in Canada. External Trade Development Council, TAITRA, the three organizations have been working hard to further advance the SCHOOL LIBRARIES AND PROMOTION two-way trade and investment relationship between Taiwan OF READING AND LITERACY and B.C. In 2017, the value of all goods and exports from B.C. to N. Simons: Today is School Library Day, a day to think Taiwan was about $695 million. Taiwan ranked No. 6 as a about literacy and one of the most vital skills a person destination for B.C. origin exports in 2017, and in the educa- can possess. Reading and writing is not only important for tion sector, Taiwan is B.C.’s ninth largest source jurisdiction an individual’s well-being; it opens doors to meaningful for international students coming to our province. Tourism careers and a greater appreciation of life. Having a literate between Taiwan and B.C. is strong and is growing stronger. society is essential to the economic and social fabric of our B.C. has a strong relationship with Taiwan as a supplier of communities. energy products. Tat’s why governments past and present support the I would like to take this opportunity to thank Eric Yang, annual Raise-a-Reader campaign with signifcant invest- 27th president of TCCBC, Andy Chen, director general of ments that fow through Decoda Literacy Solutions. Govern- TECO, and Ruth Chang, director of TAITRA, for your con- ment also supports literacy programs ofered through com- tributions to small businesses, prosperity and growth in B.C. munity organizations, schools, Indigenous organizations, family resource centres, as well as through our wonderful ENERGY-EFFICIENT RENTAL HOUSING network of public libraries around the province. PROJECT IN PEMBERTON Last year Raise-a-Reader supported literacy sessions that were attended by almost 70,000 people, a fvefold increase J. Sturdy: Homes that are energy efcient and comfort- from the previous year. able, suitable for families and afordable in the rental market Today students around the province are celebrating — these are the types of new-home developments that we School Library Day by participating in the Drop Everything need to see more of in British Columbia. and Read Challenge. At a time specifc for every school, stu- [1:55 p.m.] dents in all classrooms are encouraged to stop what they’re In West Vancouver–Sea to Sky, Vidorra Developments is doing and take 20 minutes to read. Drop Everything and prioritizing people and energy efciency in a very tight Sea Read draws attention to the importance of reading for fun. to Sky rental market. Without even realizing it, readers reap personal benefts Radius is a private sector, multifamily rental project of from reading. Exploring new horizons and knowing more one- to three-bedroom units recently completed in Pember- about the world is empowering. ton. Te building is one of the most energy-efcient build- School Library Day is coordinated by the B.C. Teacher- ings in Canada with roofop solar, rainwater collection, Librarian Association, a specialist association of the B.C. Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5753

Teachers Federation. Our school libraries support students a Fraser Valley farm. Te then 20-something decided to go by ofering diverse collections and inquiry-based learning check out the farm. opportunities. Our province’s teacher-librarians help stu- When he got there, he was shocked by what he found. dents develop the critical thinking and digital literacy skills Years later he recalled his experience to his local paper. necessary to fnd and evaluate information, helping them to “Tere was no running water. Tere were no toilets, abso- succeed in life. lutely no facilities. I was expecting, in a country like Canada, In addition to thanking all the teacher-librarians around there would be something better than that.” this province, I encourage everyone to fnd a time today to What he saw were workers living on site in converted drop everything and read — in about six minutes. cattle barns, squished in like sardines, with six people to a cubicle, he recalled, adding that a good chunk of the little KATHY O’CONNOR AND ADVOCACY FOR money they had would go towards the labourer for their COLLEGE OF COUNSELLING THERAPISTS rent. Meanwhile, workers were constantly exposed to toxic pesticides and unguarded machinery. Many were forced to T. Redies: I’m delighted to rise today to highlight FACT- bring their children to work because they couldn’t aford BC and its eforts to establish a college of counselling therap- daycare. ists under B.C.’s Health Professions Act. But mostly, I wanted Afer asking the farmer’s son why conditions were so bad, to speak to the work of a brave constituent of mine, Kathy he was fred. Te same fate followed him afer he asked O’Connor, who has been actively helping FACTBC by speak- the same question to two other employers. Tat created an ing up for the needs and rights of those dealing with mental interest and a curiosity to fnd out what was going on. He health challenges. Like any medical situation, it’s absolutely later said: “Nothing was going to be done to organize or help imperative that people dealing with mental health challenges farmworkers. Tey were not even deemed workers under the can fnd and work with professionals who are properly Employment Standards Act.” trained and accredited. Enough was enough, and this individual took action in his As many here know, FACTBC is a society of 13 profes- own hands. He went on to create the Canadian Farmwork- sional associations representing 5,000 counsellors and ther- ers Union. I recall speaking to his kids about what it was apists in B.C. FACTBC has been advocating for government like to have a father as an organizer. Tey shared their fond- to establish a B.C. college of counselling therapists to ensure est memory and the hardest memory, which was seeing their that counsellors treating mental health challenges are father come home with a big gash on his head afer he was accredited and practising according to agreed standards. attacked for trying to help workers to organize. B.C. lags other provinces in having an accredited college, but Afer that, he went on to be a founding member of the this is absolutely necessary to protect those living with men- B.C. Organization to Fight Racism. He worked tirelessly and tal health issues. relentlessly to promote human rights and racial equality. [2:00 p.m.] Last night the member for Burnaby-Edmonds, Deputy I want to say a few words about my constituent Kathy Speaker of this House, was a recipient of the United Way’s O’Connor, who has worked tirelessly to raise awareness of Labour Community Service Award. this issue. A former child development specialist, Kathy has On behalf of all my colleagues, I want to thank him for had her own challenges, so she knows from both a profes- being a mentor and for all the work he’s done for 40 years to sional and a personal perspective of the need to ensure that make lives better for British Columbians. [Applause.] B.C. has qualifed and accredited therapists. Kathy has act- ively worked with FACTBC on many fronts, including a peti- JODY PATERSON AND tion which my colleague from North Vancouver–Seymour BOARD VOICE SOCIETY will present shortly. Kathy, I admire your tenaciousness, your passion, your L. Reid: I rise today to recognize the great work of a drive to help others to bring this to the attention of the B.C. much-loved British Columbian, Jody Paterson. Board Voice Legislature. You have never let your challenges get in the way Society of B.C. is a B.C. non-proft representing the volun- of helping others. For that, you are truly an inspiration to me. teer board members and executive leaders of more than 60 community non-profts, whose services address the social RAJ CHOUHAN AND ADVOCACY FOR determinants of health. Teir vision to be a clear and efect- FARMWORKERS AND HUMAN RIGHTS ive voice for community social services sees them engage on a number of fronts. R. Kahlon: It is my privilege to speak about a remarkable A major initiative in recent years has been to advocate for British Columbian. Tis individual emigrated to Canada in the need for a provincial social policy planning framework 1973. As a student in India, he was actively involved in stu- for British Columbia. With the support of the Vancouver dent union activities. Upon his arrival to Canada, he saw an Foundation, Board Voice completed a three-year project on ad in the local paper that advertised the need for workers at this issue in 2017, afer consultations with more than 1,500 people in 15 British Columbia communities. 5754 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018

A social planning policy framework would be similar to Mr. Speaker: Te Leader of the Ofcial Opposition on a those already in routine use for planning and sustaining the supplemental. economic eforts, health care and quality education in Brit- ish Columbia. It would place social health and better social A. Wilkinson: Well, the Premier is anxious to draw some outcomes on the same level of importance as quality schools, battle lines right out of the gate. Let’s take September 4. Te great health care and a vibrant economy. Other provinces mayor-elect of Surrey, on September 4, said: “For a Premier and individual municipal governments have already to tell a city what they’re going to get…is not the fnal word. developed frameworks and plans for better social health. Te residents of Surrey will make the fnal decision, and I B.C. has thousands of passionate and knowledgable think that the Premier needs to start to listen.” people working in community non-profts that are eager to Premier, it appears that you’re throwing down the gauntlet help our residents, communities and our province to achieve with the new mayor of Surrey. Perhaps you can tell us how more. Count on Board Voice to be an active and enthusiastic you’re going to come to a productive resolution of this, participant in this efort, and please contact me if you have rather than just picking a fght. questions or ideas you would like to explore. More details about Board Voice and their work are available at their web- Hon. J. Horgan: I did nothing of the kind. I pick no fghts site, www.boardvoice.ca. with anyone. Te voters in Surrey have elected a new mayor Accolades to Jody Paterson for leading the change as exec- and a new council. Tey will come together as a mayor and utive director, and greetings to Terry Anne Boyles, the co- council. Tey will look at the various and sundry issues that chair, who I recently had the pleasure of meeting. they ran on, and they’ll bring those forward to the appropri- [2:05 p.m.] ate places. I would argue that had the people on the other side been paying attention…. Oral Questions Te Mayors Council worked diligently on a ten-year plan. It wasn’t an NDP plan. It wasn’t a Liberal plan. It was the MUNICIPAL ELECTION RESULTS AND Metro region plan, and that’s where it needs to be resolved. TRANSIT SERVICES IN SURREY Mr. Speaker: Te Leader of the Ofcial Opposition on a A. Wilkinson: On Saturday, we had municipal elections second supplemental. all around the province, and the voters had their say. Tat’s how our democracy works. Tis is a good thing, as we see A. Wilkinson: Well, the Premier seems to have forgotten a new level of involvement at the municipal level — new certain things that I use regularly, called the Canada Line voices, fresh blood — and we’ll see how it all pans out for this and the Evergreen Line. But we’ll move on from that. government. We now have the mayor of Surrey saying that he doesn’t In one particular place, it took a turn. Tat’s in Surrey, want the Premier’s plan for LRT. South of the Fraser resid- where the voters fairly decisively rejected the Premier’s ents made their position very clear in the election on Sat- transit plan. Te Premier announced that funding for Surrey urday. Te new mayor of Surrey says that in the frst week LRT was locked down on September 4, and the issue was of November, their frst item of business will be to reject the concluded. But the voters of Surrey clearly disagree. Premier’s plan for LRT. Te question that goes to the Premier is: what is he going Over to the Premier. Will the Premier accept this change to do now that the voters of Surrey have rejected his transit in circumstances, respond to the people of Surrey and start plan for LRT? the discussion for SkyTrain in Surrey, or not?

Hon. J. Horgan: I welcome the Leader of the Opposition’s Hon. J. Horgan: One of the frst things we did was interest in transit in the Lower Mainland. If only they’d had respond to the people of Surrey by eliminating tolls on the this much interest back in 2013, we may well have had it Port Mann Bridge. Te second thing we did is work to put in done by now. place a project ofce to build the schools that are desperately I do appreciate the intent of the member’s question. Cer- needed in Surrey, because they were abandoned by people tainly, the newly elected mayor of Surrey has a diferent on that side of the House. point of view than those who were on the Mayors Council [2:10 p.m.] that put the ten-year Mayors Council plan together. We I am quite happy to go back and forth with the Leader of worked with the outgoing chair, the outgoing council, with the Ofcial Opposition on issues where we can disagree, but the federal government to put in place funding for signifc- I have to correct him. It is not the Premier’s plan. It is not ant investments in public transportation in the Lower Main- an NDP plan. It is the mayors’ ten-year plan for transit in land. If the mayor of Surrey has a diferent point of view, he’s the Lower Mainland. If those on that side of the House had going to have to take that up with the Mayors Council. listened to mayors and councils while they were on this side of the House, they might still be here. Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5755

M. Hunt: In his victory speech on Saturday, Surrey’s may- 81-year-old wife, Jane. Te minister may know Jane, as the or-elect said: “We’re going to stop light rail project and start former member for Saanich North and the Islands brought to build SkyTrain right away.” her story to question period. David and Jane have lost their To the Minister of Transportation, will the Minister of doctor twice in the last decade. At 82, he is now the full-time Transportation assure Surrey voters that provincial funding caregiver for his wife, Jane, who has Alzheimer’s, is partly is available for SkyTrain? deaf and has a disability — familiar story, no? No doctor and very little respite — it’s a good thing that Hon. J. Horgan: I thank the member from Surrey for his David is strong. He’s a powerful advocate for the changes question, but he of all people should know, of the few mem- in health care services that are so urgently needed in our bers on that side of the House from Surrey, that these were province. hard decisions that were made over a long period of time by To the Minister of Health, I know the minister is work- a council, I believe, he was a member of at one time. ing to implement team-based care models across the I fnd it passing strange that the opposition today has province, but in the meantime, people are struggling to decided to try and drive people apart rather than unite them. fnd care. Can the minister give us realistic timelines on Again, perhaps that’s why they’re on that side of the House when the patients are going to start feeling real solutions and not over here. to the doctor shortage?

Mr. Speaker: Te member for Surrey-Cloverdale on a Hon. A. Dix: I want to thank the member for his question. supplemental. I think his question refects the views of many members of the House from many communities around B.C. M. Hunt: What I have chosen to do in my activities as [2:15 p.m.] an individual voter in Surrey is not what is before us today. Te people that he’s mentioned — David, Jane and Bruce, What is before us today is the result from an election. You in his constituency — and more than one in six British see, we all have our opinions, and we put our opinions for- Columbians are without a family doctor or nurse practition- ward to the electorate, and the electorate chooses to make its er, a primary care provider. It’s for them, in May, that the decisions, and the electorate has spoken. Premier launched our primary care plan — which, because Te minister and the Premier have said that those funds it’s a complex problem, involves several elements. were for a particular project. We are establishing urgent primary care centres in places My question, again to the Minister of Transportation, is: around B.C., most recently in Quesnel, to help address issues will the minister confrm, since the Surrey voters chose of attachment in care. We know, as well, that it’s not just SkyTrain, that she will fund it? people who are unattached, but many people sufer more sig- nifcant health needs than before and require signifcant care Hon. J. Horgan: Te member will know, as a former — people with mental health and addictions, the frail elderly, councillor who ran many, many times, that voters make people with chronic diseases. choices for a variety of reasons. We’re also establishing, this fscal year, 15 primary care We have a mayor and council in Surrey, duly elected on networks — established in communities that will bring new Saturday. Tat mayor and council will have to then go to oth- resources to communities to address issues of attaching er bodies in the region — the Metro table, for example — if more people to nurse practitioners and family doctors. We’re they have a disagreement with the plan, which was not just supporting community health centres, including a couple in funded by the federal and provincial governments but with the member’s constituency that again, at a community level, a portion of taxes coming from municipalities. Tey’re going establish team-based care to provide the care people need to have to go back to that table frst and foremost. when they need it. I await those discussions, and I hope they’ll be fruitful. We are hiring 200 new general practitioners, 200 new nurse practitioners and 50 new pharmacists to support these ACCESS TO FAMILY PHYSICIANS AND actions across British Columbia, because such things are SERVICES AT WALK-IN CLINICS needed. In the member’s constituency, because I know he’s very interested in this, one of those primary care networks is A. Olsen: Te number of meetings in my ofce about going to be established this year to ensure that people have health care is growing; the number of emails, overwhelming. the care they need. As the minister knows, my community, like all of our com- munities, is struggling to deliver primary care. Mr. Speaker: Saanich North and the Islands on a supple- Tis week I met with Bruce. He shared his deep frustra- mental. tion with not having a doctor. I also met with Gary. He’s also retired on the Saanich Peninsula and is now without a doc- A. Olsen: As a constituent recently wrote in to our ofce: tor for the frst time in his life. To cap of this week, David “We are surprised to learn that it is next to impossible to get a fam- stopped by to share a story about the health challenges of his 5756 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018

ily doctor here and even harder to see a doctor in a walk-in clinic if Hon. J. Horgan: I thank the member for his question. I you have a job. know he’s been working very diligently to address the con- “Both my husband and I have attempted to get into a clinic during the day, and even if you show up early, the wait is well over an hour, if gestion challenges at the Massey Tunnel. But he will also not longer. We have professional responsibilities and cannot take time know that that project was not part of the ten-year plan for of in the hopes that a doctor will be able to see us. Tis means we the local mayors. struggle to get prescriptions flled, referrals and results of any tests. [2:20 p.m.] “I recently lef work at noon to try to see a doctor, and I went to three diferent clinics that all turned me away because their doctor I’ve met with former mayor Jackson, as recently as at had already flled the quota for the day.” UBCM. Te current mayor, I believe, was a staf person at that time and was part of the meeting. We understand full In Saanich North and the Islands, we just recently lost a well the challenges at Massey, and the minister and I are clinic. going to be working as diligently as we can to make sure that To the Minister of Health, what is he doing to ensure the the entire region understands the needs of focused invest- lengthy and unpredictable wait times do not interfere with ments on those critical points. But it has to be…. the ability of patients to reach care? Interjections. Hon. A. Dix: Tank you to the member and to his con- stituents for bringing this forward. Hon. J. Horgan: Te member from Kamloops has no idea I think one of the key aspects of what we’re trying to what he’s talking about. do in the Premier’s plan is to address urgent primary care I appreciate the question from the member, and I look for- centres, of course, primary care networks and community ward to working with him and the new mayor to try and health centres that will be open not just during the day but in address this serious challenge. the evenings and on weekends. We know that people work- ing in British Columbia have health care needs not just from Mr. Speaker: Te member for Delta South on a supple- nine to fve but all through the week. It’s why all of these mental. actions will establish more care for people, give people more options for care and allow them to get the care when they I. Paton: Well, the Premier speaks of the term “diligence.” need it. Tis is a critical aspect of what we’re doing. To me, diligence is a report sitting on the minister’s desk Tis is a signifcant challenge. When I became Minister called the Cowdell report, “What’s Happening with the of Health, more than 750,000 people were without a family George Massey Tunnel Replacement.” practice doctor or a nurse practitioner in B.C., which is a To quote Mayor-elect Harvie: “How much longer will huge number of people, more than one in six. Tat, I say with Delta residents have to endure an unsafe and unhealthy daily respect, is fve years afer the launch of the GP for Me pro- commute? Every day I heard this issue on the doorsteps…. gram, a program that didn’t have…. Two years afer, it was Doing nothing is not an option.” abandoned. Te program itself had good ideas. It wasn’t all My question is: will the minister listen to the voters of bad. It wasn’t a problem. But it shows the challenge that all of Delta, dust of the Cowdell report on her desk, release it to us face as a province in addressing these issues. the public and restart the bridge construction immediately? Increasingly, people struggle with chronic disease. We are living longer, which means we have new health challenges, Hon. J. Horgan: Absolutely under active consideration, and the challenge of mental health and addiction afects as are all of the transportation challenges across British every community. Tat’s why we put in place a comprehens- Columbia. But we need to recognize that the Mayors Coun- ive primary care plan to address the problems of the mem- cil wasn’t put in place so that they could have more meetings. ber’s constituent and people in every community in British Tey were put in place to make sure that we could make Columbia. rational investments in the fastest-growing part of British Columbia. MUNICIPAL ELECTION RESULTS AND Tose rational investments have to be done with the view MASSEY TUNNEL REPLACEMENT PROJECT of meeting all of the challenges in the region, not just the challenges of those in Delta. Critical issue — we’re seized of I. Paton: All three of the Delta mayoralty candidates that responsibility, and I look forward to working with the were adamant about moving forward with the tunnel member in the future. replacement. Tis was the most talked about issue in our Delta election. Delta mayor-elect George Harvie has a RELEASE OF REPORT ON simple message for the Transportation Minister: “We need MASSEY TUNNEL REPLACEMENT PROJECT a new bridge. Tat is the number one concern I heard. We need a new bridge.” J. Johal: Ashton Service Group is a longtime plumbing When will this minister build the bridge? company in Richmond. When Ashton Group gets called south of the Fraser, they send two plumbers, not because the Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5757 job requires it but because with two plumbers they can at MUNICIPAL ELECTION RESULTS AND least use the HOV lane to get through the tunnel. Tat’s how REAL ESTATE SPECULATION TAX badly things have deteriorated under this minister. On behalf of the Ashton Group and 14,000 Richmond S. Bond: Well, another community, another mayor elected businesses, when will the minister table the Cowdell report? in a landslide by voters who are sending a clear message about the policies of this government. In West Kelowna…. Hon. J. Horgan: Well, an interesting approach by the quarterback of the question period team today. First of all, Interjections. we start by saying: “Stop construction on critically important infrastructure in one place, and fre up critically important S. Bond: Tat’s exactly why this mayor has been elected, infrastructure in another place.” because of the mocking on the other side. In West Kelowna, It’s the randomness of the questions that I believe puts it was Gord Milsom…. in clear focus for the people of British Columbia the need for thoughtful deliberation on signifcant investments of this Interjections. kind. Tat’s why there’s a Mayors Council. I would suggest the member should consult with his mayor, who was Mr. Speaker: Members, we shall hear the question. recently re-elected with a massive majority, about his views on addressing this issue. S. Bond: In West Kelowna, it was Gord Milsom elected, Do we need to fx it? Of course we do. Was the solution with nearly 80 percent of the vote. When asked during the put forward by the other guys the right one? I don’t think so. campaign about the speculation tax, here is what the mayor- elect had to say: “Te tax places West Kelowna at a compet- Mr. Speaker: Richmond-Queensborough on a supple- itive disadvantage…. It has already curtailed growth and has mental. had a negative impact on local business and employment.” We just heard from the Premier that they’ll work and J. Johal: Had the benched Transportation Minister simply listen. For months now, this Finance Minister has ignored allowed work to continue, today we’d be a year into the the requests from local governments to reconsider her half- building of the Massey crossing on behalf of 14,000 Rich- baked speculation tax. mond businesses; on behalf of commuters in Delta, Rich- Does she plan to continue to ignore the voices of mayors mond, South Surrey and Langley; on behalf of ferry users; on who have received overwhelming support from the voters in behalf of tourists from Washington state; on behalf of long- their communities? shoremen and truck drivers at the Tsawwassen port. Te minister has the report. She’s seen the report. Can she Hon. C. James: It is very clear that this side of the House tell us what the report recommends and on restarting con- is continuing to stand up for British Columbians, while that struction? side of the House decides not to deal with the housing crisis. I would remind the member of the statistics when you Hon. J. Horgan: Well, if the member doesn’t have time to look at Kelowna and West Kelowna. Rental prices jumped contact Mayor Brodie, I’ll read a quote from Mayor Brod- more than 8 percent between October 2016 and October ie. He said the following, “We have been disregarded and 2017. Housing starts, in fact, are 35 percent above the fve- ignored in the questions that we have asked,” referring to the year average. Unemployment has dropped from 7 percent in previous government. “I think that it’s absolutely critical to September, under the old government, to 5.6 percent. Te the future of our city” — that being Richmond — “that there economy is strong. People need housing, and we’re going to be a re-examination of this project” so that important issues address it. like this can be done in many diferent ways. Mr. Speaker: Te member for Prince George–Valemount Interjections. on a supplemental.

Mr. Speaker: Members. S. Bond: Te Finance Minister certainly has an interesting way of standing up for British Columbians when, in fact, she Hon. J. Horgan: It highlights the requirement to have told British Columbians that if they paid tax in this province, reasonable and rational discussions with all players at the they wouldn’t be captured in the speculation tax. Te Premi- table. Tat’s why there’s a Mayors Council. Tat’s why they er said the same thing. In fact, two-thirds of the people cap- come together — so that they can make sure that the best tured in the speculation tax are British Columbians. interests of the entire region are met. I’m going to listen to Last week the outgoing mayor of West Kelowna, who will them before I listen to that member. now be sitting on the West Kelowna council, told the minis- [2:25 p.m.] ter directly about the impacts of the speculation tax. I quote not our words but the words of an elected ofcial: “It has 5758 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 curtailed growth in our city…. Single-family development in Why doesn’t this minister start listening to voters on the West Kelowna has dropped by 40 percent, and multifamily Island? Tey are included in British Columbians, which she has dropped by 45 percent.” says she is respecting and listening to. Start thinking about Despite the minister’s claims, the so-called speculation rejecting the tax. tax has already impacted communities. Both current and recently elected mayors and councils have made it clear that Hon. C. James: Having spent most of my life on the they want out. Island, I can tell the member on the other side that people on Just how many lost housing units will it take for this the Island are being listened to, fnally, afer 16 years with the minister to listen to anyone other than the Leader of the other side ignoring them. Tird Party? Housing afordability is at a crisis in our province. I understand the other side doesn’t want to listen. I under- Hon. C. James: Well, I can certainly understand from stand the other side doesn’t want to deal with housing. I’m the other side, who spent 16 years not listening to British guessing that in getting rid of the speculation tax, they want Columbians, why they would feel that way. If the members to support speculators and investors who are using housing on the other side, who have talked about municipal elec- for a market instead of using it for housing. tions, listened to every single council and mayoral candidate Well, we are not going to let that happen. We are going to and individual who was elected or who ran, what was the end speculation. We are going to end money laundering. We issue that was at top of mind everywhere? Afordable hous- are going to address the issue of housing for the people of ing needed to be addressed. British Columbia who live and work here. It is very clear who is standing up for British Columbians in this province and who isn’t. We are going to continue to IMPACT OF REAL ESTATE stand up for those British Columbians and make afordable SPECULATION TAX ON HOUSING STARTS housing possible once again in our province. T. Stone: When questioned about the so-called specula- M. Stilwell: Re-elected mayor Stew Young of Langford tion tax back on May 17, the Finance Minister said: “One of received 81.9 percent of the vote on Saturday. Now, he calls the key factors we look at are housing starts.” Let’s look at the phony speculation tax a job-killer. what’s happened since this speculation tax was announced. [2:30 p.m.] Housing starts are down 42 percent in Vancouver. Housing In Oak Bay, Nils Jensen wafed last week on the tax and starts are down 56 percent in . In West received less than 30 percent of the vote. However, his Kelowna, single-family development has dropped 40 per- opponent, who is opposed to the NDP tax, won the support cent, and multifamily development is down 45 percent. of 70 percent of the voters. My question to the minister is this. Does she still think Why is the minister rejecting the will of Island voters who that housing starts are a key factor, and if yes, how far do don’t want her tax? housing starts have to collapse for this minister to accept that her speculation tax is an absolute failure? Hon. C. James: Congratulations to the mayors who were elected in our area, in the CRD. I look forward to working Hon. C. James: In fact, according to Statistics Canada, with them to continue the kind of strong growth that you are year-to-date housing starts for B.C. are on track with last seeing in this area and around the province. year and well above the ten-year average. Perhaps the mem- Te member mentioned employment and the challenges ber would like another statistic. Again from Statistics in employment. Well, let’s take a look at the challenges in Canada, the value of B.C.’s building permits actually reached employment. One of the biggest challenges is fnding hous- a record high of $1.8 billion in August, and year-to-date res- ing for all the people who are employed right now in British idential building permits are up more than 20 percent. Columbia. [2:35 p.m.] Statistics from the CRD, the capital regional district, A quote from a developer in Kelowna, Luke Turri of the which includes the areas that the member mentioned — Mission Group, says that the speculation tax hasn’t impacted unemployment rate, 3.9 percent, the second-lowest in the their 25-storey Brooklyn tower in Kelowna because they’re country. actually selling to people who are going to live in the units or rent them out, so they don’t pay the speculation tax. Mr. Speaker: Parksville-Qualicum on a supplemental. [End of question period.] M. Stilwell: Newly elected and re-elected local leaders across this province are calling on this minister to rethink Petitions her phony speculation tax. As a councillor, it was the Oak Bay mayor-elect, Kevin Murdoch, who proposed a resolu- J. Tornthwaite: I rise to present a petition. I have a peti- tion calling for the NDP tax to be suspended. tion here for the Minister of Health as well as the Minister Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5759

of Mental Health and Addictions from FACTBC, the Feder- heard from the mayors from Kelowna, Langford and right ation of Associations for Counselling Terapists in B.C., who here in the capital regional district. Tey are opposed. Teir have distributed a petition of almost 12,000 people to ask UBCM resolution stated: “Te taxes imposed on municip- this government to regulate counselling therapists, to protect alities without consultation or economic modelling of its British Columbians. impact….” No economic modelling at all on the impact on these municipalities afected. Orders of the Day Te Nanaimo regional district stated that this tax has been identifed as having “a negative impact where it is proposed, Hon. M. Farnworth: I call continued debate, second read- including creating an unequal playing feld for real estate and ing, Bill 45, the Budget Measures Implementation (Specula- property investments between jurisdictions.” tion and Vacancy Tax) Act. Some municipalities are in. Some were in, and now they’re out. Some are out, and some are in — no rhyme or reason as [L. Reid in the chair.] to why some are in and some are out. Te leader of the Green Party used to oppose this tax, but Second Reading of Bills it appears, as we found out last week, that that’s not exactly happening. Te leader was quoted saying that he didn’t agree BILL 45 — BUDGET MEASURES with the speculation tax. It had too many unforeseen con- IMPLEMENTATION (SPECULATION sequences. He agreed that it didn’t actually address specula- AND VACANCY TAX) ACT, 2018 tion, and it was administratively burdensome. (continued) He then brought forward, with the Minister of Finance last week, three amendments, but these amendments don’t J. Tornthwaite: I’m rising today to continue debate on address any of those concerns. Te main one — the ability Bill 45, the speculation and vacancy tax. My colleague the for municipalities to opt out — was ignored. Te Minister member for Langley East had been talking last week about of Finance did admit that these changes were actually put how it more rightly should be called a so-called inheritance in place to appease the Tird Party, not the municipalities tax because this tax is not a tax on speculation at all. But the afected, and I can tell you that many of these municipalities government has taken creative licence and chosen to name it are disappointed. that way. I can tell you that many of my constituents are also dis- Most people would expect that a tax called the speculation appointed that the Green Party said that they would stand tax would, in fact, address speculation. Tat is, however, not up for municipalities and fght this speculation tax, and in the case in this bill. Tis bill actually fails to deal with specu- fact, that is not happening. Some have said they caved. I lation. And it’s worse because it exempts speculators. It has a guess, despite the comments of his own mayor, the Green one-year exemption on newly purchased properties. So buy- Party leader and a unanimous resolution at UBCM, we ing a property, waiting for the price to rise and selling it were not hearing any standing up against the speculation within a year is actually exempt from this tax. tax from the Tird Party. We expect that’s because they like Tat’s exactly what happened to a home just down the to be on that side of the House, don’t want to be back on road from where I live. Somebody bought it, sat on it for less this side of the House, and it’s better to just side with the than a year and then sold it, and it went up, I think, $400,000 government and not go against the government, because within that time frame. Some people would call that fipping. then they will be maintained in their spot on that side of Others call it a wise fnancial investment. But almost every- the House. But I digress. one will agree it is speculation. Back to the legislation. It should, one would hope, have [2:40 p.m.] the aim of increasing the amount of housing available so Why is a bill that exempts speculation called a speculation housing becomes more afordable. Yet all of the NDP’s hous- tax? Well, in my riding, we’ve got people talking about how ing measures have the opposite efect. More than $1 billion we have a school tax that actually has nothing to do with in housing investments have been cancelled or postponed schools or education, and we have an employer health tax due to this tax, and that’s even before it’s been implemented. that causes the costs for employers in the public sector and Projects have been sidelined. No homes have been built. the private sector to skyrocket. Your municipalities will be Wages have been lost. In fact, Macdonald Developments increasing property taxes to pay for it, and companies will be cancelled 600 new homes in Langford and 110 lots in Kelow- increasing prices or laying of staf to pay for it. na worth $500 million. Belmont Properties has put almost Increasing taxes does not belong in an afordability 600 market and rental properties on hold here in Victoria. budget. Te name “speculation” sounds good, but of What about housing starts? We heard about housing starts course, it doesn’t actually have anything to do with hous- being mentioned today in question period. We know that ing afordability. the sign of a good economy is new housing on the way, and Municipal leaders whose communities are impacted by they’re dropping. Last week, many of us got visited by the this tax are calling on the government to stop this tax. We’ve Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver. Tese are their stats. 5760 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018

Tey report that residential property sales in the region have nized that. For over a decade, members who are now sit- decreased since September 2017 — a 17 percent decrease ting on that side of the House ignored this issue. Te govern- compared to now. Te last month’s sales were 36.1 percent ment of the day did not take action to address the huge price below the ten-year September sales average. So housing increases that were happening in the area of housing. As a starts are going down. In fact, some would say it’s close to result, today we have municipality afer municipality, busi- almost half. ness afer business, families and individuals telling us how Te afordability crisis looms largest in Vancouver, and housing afordability is a key, key issue that is impacting on on the North Shore, where I live. It was a major issue in the way they live and their lifestyle. the municipal election. So if this so-called speculation tax I have met with the Surrey Board of Trade many difer- decreases the ability to build more houses, then it can’t pos- ent times. I’m always proud of the progressive work that sibly be having any efect on afordability in my community. that particular board does, whether it comes to aford- [2:45 p.m.] able child care, universal child care plan, but also when it Tis means fewer starter homes for young couples starting comes to tackling the housing crisis that exists in British their families and their careers. It means fewer condos for Columbia today. older people aiming to downsize. Tose prices have actually While I was meeting with members of the Surrey Board gone up. It means increased pricing pressures on the existing of Trade, they told me stories of companies that were fnding housing supply. it hard to attract people to move to Surrey because the cost It means construction crews aren’t working, and construc- of housing was so high. Tey talked about child care, abso- tion, as we know, is the largest industry in our economy. New lutely. Tey said it’s not the wages that people are balking at. apprentices won’t pick up valuable skills, especially since the But when they get to Surrey, it’s about housing, and it’s about NDP are excluding 85 percent of workers from their unit child care. Tose were the two critical issues that they iden- beneft agreements. tifed over and over again. But the biggest impact is felt by the people here in this As I said earlier, this whole issue of housing is a major province and across Canada. People have worked hard and undertaking by this government, because we know how invested in their own province. People have bought property important shelter is. with an eye to spending time in two parts of the province. It [2:50 p.m.] could be a cabin on the Island or inheritance property passed When you have people who are earning over $100,000 a down from generation to generation. Madame Speaker, year…. Not everybody in B.C. does that. Many would love 20,000 people — 20,000 British Columbians — are impacted to be able to earn that much. We’re hearing from profes- by this tax. Tat is almost two-thirds of the 32,000 people sionals who are earning $100,000 a year and saying: “We penalized by this tax. Another 10,000 are from other cannot qualify for a mortgage because the price of housing provinces, many of them from , who come and play is so high.” in Shuswap, Kelowna and the Kootenays. Madame Speaker, I’m sure you’ve heard of these stories as Again, this is not about speculation. Tis bill is about tax- well as have my colleagues. Not so long ago — I would say as ing people and punishing them for investing in their own few as two years ago — you had people who would be scrap- province, their own country or in their own retirements. ing together, borrowing from family, putting all their savings Tis bill will make housing less afordable for families as few- together, looking at their retirement plans, getting enough of er new homes will be built. It will slow investments, and it a deposit and making a fairly decent bid to buy a house, to will take money out of the pockets of hard-working British put an ofer in, only to fnd that the house that they were Columbians trying to save for their retirement. Tis bill fails hoping to buy was sometimes selling for as much as $200,000 to directly target speculation. or $300,000 more than the asking price. On this side of the House, through the Leader of the I met with many constituents of mine who experienced Opposition, we’ve introduced a bill that actually targets spec- that personally. Tey came to see me, and they said: “Tis ulation. Our bill targets the fipping of pre-sale contracts. It just isn’t right. Here we are. We’ve got this income. We think doesn’t touch people’s cabins and vacation homes. Tis gov- we’re making a fairly good income, but we cannot aford to ernment’s bill is a tax grab, and we won’t be supporting it. buy a house.” Te houses were moving at a price way, way beyond the listed price, never mind the assessed value of the Hon. J. Sims: I am pleased to speak today in support property. of the Budget Measures Implementation (Speculation and So housing afordability is a big issue in British Columbia. Vacancy Tax) Act, 2018. Tis bill puts into place the specula- It is not just in Vancouver or Surrey. I heard about it when tion and vacancy tax, a tax that is an integral part of our gov- I was in Kelowna. I heard about it when I was in the Koo- ernment’s 30-point housing plan to improve housing aford- tenays. I hear about it in Nanaimo, where my daughter lives ability in this province. with her family. I’ve heard about it in Victoria as well. Housing and the lack of afordability right now is a very I’ve heard people saying that we need to attract profes- complex issue. Tere is no sweet pill that is going to fx this sional people into our region. But they just can’t aford to live problem. Members on this side of the House have recog- here. I heard in Surrey, for example, very, very clearly, people Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5761 saying: “You know, we’ve got these vacancies in this sector. into a three-bedroom house. Tose are the kinds of choices We actually spend money. We recruit people. But when they young professionals are making today. look at the price of housing, they say: ‘Wow, what a beautiful Businesses can’t fnd the workers they need to keep our area of the world to live in. We want to come here.’” economy growing. We hear a lot about economic growth. Ten do you know what they say? “We’re going to have Economic growth is not possible without human resourcing, to take a job somewhere else, because we cannot aford the and in order to attract workers here into the areas where that child care, and we cannot aford the price of housing.” work is available, we need to address the housing issue. Tere Tese are real issues being faced by working people — are recruits, people who are wanting to move to Vancouver, people who work for a living, who need to go out to work. some of them from the United States, some of them from We know — and I absolutely believe in this — that if you get other parts of the world. But they are also looking at the price up in the morning and you go to work and you work hard, of housing and thinking: “Well, if I cannot aford to buy a you should be able to aford to buy shelter with your earn- house, how am I going to survive? If I cannot aford to pay ings. Many, many British Columbians cannot do that today. the rent….” Our province is amidst a housing crisis that is hurting the Rent has also gone up incredibly over the last ten years. people who live and work in our communities. Prices have Tere is no way that wages, salaries, have kept pace with skyrocketed, making homes out of reach for most people — increases in the cost of housing, whether it’s to buy a house not only for those who are seeking to purchase a home but or whether it is to rent a house. for those looking at renting as well. As a government and as elected ofcials, no matter where I heard from many municipalities, many of them on the we sit in this House, we have a collective responsibility to Island, even north Island, saying: “It’s the price of housing take action. We have a collective responsibility to the people that stops us from recruiting people to come and work in of British Columbia, to our children and grandchildren and municipal government.” So it’s not just industry. It’s diferent to the generations to come, to tackle housing afordability levels of government that are also fnding it difcult to right now. We cannot wait. Tis is not something that is recruit, simply because of the cost of housing. going to go away. We are in a crisis, and for too long, those sitting on the Tis government is willing to take bold action to make other side of the House were either oblivious to the crisis, sure that people can aford a home within the communities or it was just easier to look the other way. But I can tell you where they live and work. We don’t want people to have to sit that the Premier of this province and this government are two to three hours in trafc gridlocks commuting to work. not prepared to look that way, because we want to make sure We know that when people have to live so far away from the that our children and our grandchildren can aford to live in places where they work, that changes the communities. Tat a house, whether they rent it or buy it. changes the culture of the workplace. Tat also changes the Families with multiple children are living in bachelor or culture for the people who are spending so long commuting, single-bedroom apartments because rents are so high. We and we know that that has an impact that is costly to govern- know what that does to the quality of life. We also know what ment in the way of mental health and other issues. that does to mental health, what that does to relationships Te speculation and vacancy tax is critical to make sure and young students’ ability to focus on doing their home- this happens so that people can aford to buy homes in the work and be successful in their schooling. communities where they live and work, thus reducing the [2:55 p.m.] congestion on our public highways. Tis bill incentivizes — Tese issues of living in overcrowded areas have huge fn- one of my favourite words — out-of-province real estate ancial impact on our society. Single-family homes have been speculators and people who are sitting on empty second and priced out of reach for any family earning less than $200,000 third homes to make them available for rent or to put them a year. Today a minister of the Crown in this province, unless on the market. they have another income coming in, would fnd it hard to [3:00 p.m.] qualify to buy a house in Surrey, in Vancouver, in Richmond, People can have more than one home, as long as the other in Burnaby, in Victoria. Tey would fnd it hard to do that. homes are rented out. As long as they are rented out — you Workers and seniors have been living in their cars because know what? — then they don’t have to pay this tax. Let me there is simply no rental housing on the market. We’re hear- be clear. Not a single person will have to pay this tax if they ing that more and more. rent out their vacant homes — not a single person. Young professionals are leaving the province. Teresa, who We need these underutilized homes to become homes lived in Surrey — not in my riding but in a riding close to for renters. British Columbia is facing near-zero-percent mine — has now taken a job in Alberta. She didn’t want to vacancy rates. While I’ve lived in the Lower Mainland — move, because she has a young family. But she is going to especially in the years I lived in Vancouver — I saw a grow- make not only slightly more in salary, which didn’t really ing number of empty homes while there was a growing num- entice her; it was the thought of moving out of a one-bed- ber of people looking for afordable shelter. It is unacceptable room apartment, with two kids, and being able to move for homes to sit empty when there are thousands of British Columbians who have nowhere to live. 5762 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018

Tis tax will also provide revenue to fund afordable hous- and help turn empty properties into homes for people. Tat’s ing initiatives in the areas most afected by the housing crisis. what we want: homes for people. How does it do this? Tis annual tax is calculated between Tere are too many people who come into my ofce, 0.5 of 1 percent and 2 percent of the assessed value of the ofces of other members, telling us about the challenges of property. Te highest rate will apply only to foreign owners fnding afordable housing. Tis tax will help to moderate. who are not paying their fair share of income taxes. Tis has Because when it comes to choosing between British Colum- been said before, but I’ll say it again: 99 percent of British bians or out-of-province real estate speculators who buy Columbians will not pay this tax. houses and leave them sitting empty and don’t pay taxes here, our government will choose British Columbians every R. Kahlon: Say it again. single time. I’ve had the privilege of teaching for a huge number of Hon. J. Sims: I will, just for you: 99 percent of British years, and every one of those years is a very, very valu- Columbians will not pay this tax. Most people cannot aford able experience for me. For me, when I look at legislation one home, much less three or four, but those who can aford like this, I think of all of the children I have taught and three or four will not have to pay the tax if their empty their children. I think of my children, our grandchildren. I homes are rented out. Tat’s all they have to do. think of the young professionals who are walking into my It is completely fair to ask those people who are fortunate ofce, some of them saying: “We’re going to have to leave enough to own multiple homes to rent them out. If they don’t this province because of the lack of housing.” It’s because want to — we live in a country where we get to make choices of that I am so proud to be supporting this particular piece — if they are unwilling to do so, then all they have to do is to of legislation. pay the speculation tax so that there is more money available Because this government, unlike the previous government to create afordable homes. Tat’s all they have to do. Anyone — my colleagues sitting across the way — is going to address can avoid the tax by renting their home out for at least six the housing issue in order to ensure that housing becomes months of the year. more afordable for today and for future generations. Tis will actually address those who built a house and want to be able to sell it. Te goal here is to provide housing. R. Sultan: Last week at the adjournment of debate on Te goal here is to look at the growing number of British Bill 45, the NDP’s speculation and vacancy tax, my dear Columbians — young, middle-aged and those who are a friend from Powell River–Sunshine Coast pointed out that little bit more experienced — to be able to have housing. I this was only one element of a 30-point plan whereby don’t think that’s too much to ask for. his government would expand housing supply; lower the Of course, this bill does provide for special-circumstance cost of housing, particularly for the needy; greatly increase exemptions, and I’m so proud of our Finance Minister afordable housing everywhere; improve the housing situ- because she has taken the time to put forward a piece of ation for seniors; and, in all respects, fnd the pathway to a legislation that takes into consideration that there are times rosier future for our society. when there could be a need for exemptions. Tat has been Who could disagree with that? Well, all I can say is if the built into the legislation so that there is predictability and other 29 components of the government’s 30-point master people know what is out there. plan are of similar thoughtfulness and efectiveness as this Let me talk about the exceptions. For people who are one, then British Columbia is in for a pretty bumpy ride until developing homes or signifcantly renovating them, there’s the next election, by which time the voters — more than a an exemption for them. For people seeking medical treat- few of them still sleeping in doorways and under bridges — ment — as we know, in our province, some people have to may choose a diferent government. travel, so their house might have to be empty for quite a long I was also very interested to observe my friend from Pow- period of time — there’s an exemption for them. I don’t know ell River–Sunshine Coast — and he is my friend — resorting about you, but with my mother 94 and soon to be turning to playbook 2 when challenged as to the efectiveness of the 95, I’m very, very conscious of seniors and the struggles they speculation and vacancy tax. He did not address the troub- have. So for people who are residing in long-term care, there ling issues and serious questions being raised but instead is an exemption. Teir house can remain empty. went on the attack. Attacking, we are now beginning to [3:05 p.m.] understand, is the standard NDP playbook response. For people who are on a temporary absence for work — Te universal and unchanging answer to any legitimate that happens — once again, there’s an exemption for that, question is the magic number 16. We saw it again just a because this government and this minister were thoughtful moment ago by the member for Surrey-Panorama, 16. Tat’s enough to see through all those scenarios. Tere is an a code word for 16 years of terrible government, and that’s exemption for people with disabilities. the answer to all of the questions being asked: 16, 16. Tis government cares about people. It cares about British [3:10 p.m.] Columbians. It cares about ensuring there is afordable hous- Terefore, I suggest to the member for Powell River–Sun- ing. Tis tax will work to moderate B.C.’s housing market shine Coast that you could facilitate the proceedings of this Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5763

House in the future by simply standing up and shouting out ison should be easy as pie. But that defnition, too, is absent “16” and sitting down again, and we will understand. We can from the bill. even give you superior talking points about the point you’re Other important features of Bill 45 are 27 — count them making, and the whole proceedings will move more briskly. — 27 tax exemptions. I doubt many pieces of tax legislation However, I would caution the member, my friend, that on the bookshelf of this library can beat that. Twenty-seven endless repetition of the word “sixteen” does have rhetorical exemptions perhaps signals a certain degree of caution, if not limitations. At some point, members opposite will have to beleaguered incredulity, among our very competent legislat- give their heads a shake and admit they won the last election ive drafers. — sort of, with some help from their friends — and they are [3:15 p.m.] now actually the government. “Hello. You are no longer the What is not so clear in the proposed tax statute on spec- ofcial opposition.” ulation and vacancy are rumoured exemptions, orchestrated Sooner or later, since you are already approaching one- not by law but by where geographic lines are drawn on a third of your mandate, you must explain and take respons- map — arbitrarily, it seems to me. Here is where some spatial ibility for your own current actions, your current plans and economic modelling could have helped — but nobody asked policies. Bill 45, playbook No. 16 repeated over and over me — introduce some defensible analytic rationality to the again is becoming tiresome and boring, quite frankly — not whole haywire scheme. But it is apparent that no such ana- to say, irresponsible. lysis was performed. If Bill 45 is a key statute heralding British Columbia’s Te resulting boundaries remind me of the British and brilliant housing future, government MLAs should, in fact, French arbitrarily and without consulting anybody carving demonstrate that they’ve actually read this not small piece of the sands of the Middle East into new and separate countries legislation. Te government members — I’m looking at you about a century ago. Whether a British Columbia household — a feat of good governments that I’m increasingly begin- today fnds itself on the tax-paying side of the boundary or ning to doubt…. It is simply not good enough to throw rocks on the tax-exempt side of the boundary seems capricious. in our general direction, because we’ll just pick them up and Drawing these lines no doubt engaged persons of higher throw them back again. purpose recruited from the most loyal ranks of the NDP Unfortunately, the NDP-Green fscal strategy underlying and Green alliance but not big on detail. How else could this bill is to grab some more money in new and clever ways we fnd eminent persons in the NDP party and the Green from hard-pressed homeowners and spend it on higher-pur- Party somehow accidentally included in the tax-paying zone pose things. Tat’s the strategy. in the frst drafs of the legislation, but afer hasty revisions, In their short time in ofce, the NDP-Green party has excluded from the tax-paying zone, while persons of less- already done this in some 18 diferent ways, so ofen, in orange or less-greenish hue fnd themselves locked forever fact, perhaps they believe the 19th time — that is to say, into the tax-full-paying embrace on the wrong side of the this Bill 45 — won’t be noticed. But, sad to say, they’re arbitrary boundary line? Too bad. wrong about that. Tis is what the eminent member for Langley East For the beneft of the folks opposite who haven’t gotten talked about in these chambers on Tursday. As I recall, he around to actually reading Bill 45, I ofer a briefng, an out- also said it doesn’t pass the smell test. It does seem to be a line of the bill. Te purpose of the bill is clearly captured in remarkable coincidence that in the frst geographic squig- the title: the speculation and vacancy tax. Clear as day, this gling of the boundaries of this speculation and vacancy tax is a bill which will put a tax on speculation and, just to be on by the government, all three members of the Green Party the safe side, a tax on vacancy too. It’s not a short one-pager. were captured. But in the second version, they were not. It’s, in fact, 105 pages long. I guess it’s hard to fgure out how Quite a coincidence. to tax speculation and vacancy in fewer words. Fair enough. Is this not also true of leadership on high of the benches I can appreciate that. opposite? Say it ain’t so, please, and I say that seriously. Te bill contains 42 defnitions, which, no doubt, is one Otherwise, I must agree with the member for Langley reason it is such a long bill, but there are curious omissions. East: it doesn’t pass the smell test. I could use more colour- Te bill does not defne what it is taxing. It does not defne ful language. Please, please, for the honour of this House, “speculation.” Nowhere. Nada en absoluto. Zilch. Rien. please remedy this seemingly outrageous situation. Tat’s Ingenting, as they say in Swedish — nothing. Tat’s only half an honest plea. their problem. Tere are other interesting features. School teachers Te other half of the problem is that the bill doesn’t defne have evolved their own coda for who must be present and “vacancy,” either, which is curious because that’s the easy who’s absent from class. Tey see vestiges of such cultural one. You’re either hiding somewhere in that house or you’re norms in Bill 45. For example, section 33 says that you can not. So while defning speculation could draw us into a cen- be excused from paying the tax if you get a note from your tury-old University of Chicago economics department doctor. Excellent. philosophical musing — which I did, for me, as I googled What I conclude is that it’s hard to take this legislation away on Sunday afernoon — defning vacancy by compar- seriously. It reeks of pandering, improvisation and caprice, 5764 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 not serious law-making, which is unfortunate, because, as think it is. Others might call it investing in the telephone Daniel Webster once said: “Te power to tax is the power to company. destroy.” We should remind ourselves, public servants all — in par- Tere’s no question British Columbians’ housing needs ticular, politicians of public sector origin populating both are serious indeed. For example, the member from Sunshine sides of this House in great numbers: former teachers, social Coast said we have a housing crisis, and I would agree with workers, government people or simply MLAs — your pen- him wholeheartedly. sion depends on speculating and investing. Terefore, be Last week I toured the Lookout shelter on Second in cautious before you heap shame on the speculators. Be care- North Vancouver, close to my riding, and asked how they ful, NDP-Greens, when you demonize activities which create were doing. Tey house about 26 homeless every night and economic gain — buying low and selling high and other run at about 100 percent of capacity. When there’s overfow, activities motivated by, heaven forbid, proft. Your pension they put foam mattresses down in the dining area, and may depend on it. people bunk down at least warm and dry for the night. But So what are the real goals of Bill 45? Te aim of this tax is they must leave the next morning. clearly to punish those who own property. Pure and simple. In addition, I met a person at the Lookout shelter who is Te aim of this tax is clearly to punish those who buy a tracking, on a computer, all of those living “in the rough” second home. Te aim of this tax is clearly to punish those between Deep Cove and Whistler, sleeping in doorways, who would be so socially insensitive as to build a vacation under bridges, in vans and in their cars, under tarpaulins cabin in the woods. Te aim of this tax is to clearly punish and even semi-permanent encampments deeply inside of the anybody who leaves their residence empty for a period of North Shore Mountains. time — a year, a month, overnight maybe. Te tax man will [3:20 p.m.] catch you. In only six weeks, he’d identifed 100 such persons Te aim of the bill is to discourage Albertans from owning between Deep Cove and Whistler. It wasn’t hard to fnd second homes in B.C. We reject their oil, and we also reject them. Te police know where they are. Others look the other them in person. At least we can say the NDP-Greens are con- way. Tis is the reality of the most desperate homeless in the sistent. Tey don’t much care for Albertans or Alberta or for community that I represent, which some would consider to how Albertans earn a living, and the history of this legisla- be a very privileged part of British Columbia. Some of these tion shows it. As a Canadian, I’m ashamed. desperate people are even trying to hold down a full-time Let’s talk about enforcement. Bill 45 allows a tax man job, living under those circumstances. with a warrant to enter your premises to check up on Unfortunately, I don’t see anything in the speculation and whether it might be unoccupied — see part 5, division 7, vacancy tax which will help our North Shore homeless. section 93 of the bill. Having a switch to turn the lights on Nada. Zip. Ingenting. I don’t have to repeat the phrases. Tis and of automatically isn’t going to fool the tax man. “Tat brings me to the sinful activity which seems to be the focus house is empty. We checked their heating bill. If I must, of this legislation — speculation. I’m going to enter that place with a warrant to read the Wow, who can love speculators, the manipulators of glob- undelivered mail and see if the beds have been occupied or al markets? We meet them in James Bond movies — crooked if the milk in the refrigerator is sour — and prove wheth- bankers simultaneously buying gold futures and selling pork er or not somebody is living there.” Tese are invasions of bellies on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. Tere’s privacy facilitated by Bill 45. something underhanded and malignant about the whole [3:25 p.m.] scene. Terefore, it is not surprising that, again, as the mem- Does anybody else in this chamber see the irony of this ber for Powell River–Sunshine Coast reported, 88 percent of bill being introduced under the regime of an Attorney Gen- persons polled by Angus Reid are all in favour of the specu- eral who was the executive director of the British Columbia lation tax. Civil Liberties Association between 2008 and 2012? Well, I Let me confess that if the NDP-Green alliance were to certainly do. bring into this Legislature a real tax on speculation, as Having an empty home is clearly interpreted by the opposed to a fake tax on speculation, I would probably sup- authors of this bill as wasteful and antisocial. How about the port it too. But is buying a house in New Westminster for opposite extreme? Here’s a true story. Somebody took their $500,000 one year and selling it the next for $600,000 pure penthouse condo in North Vancouver, chopped it up into speculation? Maybe, but it’s not captured by this bill. Tose 14-bed hostel and rented out by the night. Te other strata might be called speculators, depending how you want to owners objected and fnally sued in court. Would the authors label them, but they get a pass from the NDP and the Greens. of Bill 45 endorse such behaviour? I guess so. It’s clear from By the way, our side introduced a bill which would have their point of view that it’s a move in the right direction. caught them, which the NDP has not. I believe that when tax policy sets sail in a direction to Is buying a share of Telus today at the current quote of ensure that all housing must be occupied 100 percent of $34.75 a share and, fve years later, selling it for 50 bucks the time, it sets into motion an Orwellian nightmare, a speculating? Well, in NDP world, I suspect many would dystopian dream, a degree of Stalin-like government inter- Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5765 vention into our personal living arrangements most of us Some NDP analyst would seize upon the numbers as would despise. indicative of success. New supply coming into the market What has been the overall economic impact of the legis- — check. Prices are sofening and probably will continue to lation and its companion statutes — a full suite of NDP tax sofen — check. It looks like people are bailing out of real measures aimed at real estate and home ownership? Well, let estate. Tat’s wonderful. Or is it? us agree that Bill 45 is not a tax on speculation. It’s a tax on [3:30 p.m.] property and home ownership. It will erode confdence in Unless we envisage a future where government itself the housing sector and dampen supply, not grow it. Trough builds worker housing à la Stalin’s red brick monsters in the dampening supply, this bill will make housing less afordable Moscow suburbs, I think malaise in the real estate market for families as fewer new homes will be built. hits all economic segments, high and low. On balance, this is For most Canadians, their home is their most important not conducive to building housing supply. Housing balance asset. It’s what they plan to use to fnance their retirement. It’s will be restored, I would forecast, when people stop mov- what they plan to use to help their children to make a down ing to B.C., just as they stopped moving here in the 1990s. payment on a home of their own. By discouraging the attain- Chances are history will repeat itself. Such are the fruits of ment of such goals, Bill 45 will contribute to unafordability taxation, such as created by Bill 45. and shortages in housing. And this bill fails to halt specula- Good luck, NDP and Greens. Carry on with your plan to tion. It doesn’t even try. tax British Columbia to full employment, afordable housing In fairness, it’s not all bad news. UDI, the Urban Devel- and a more prosperous future. opment Institute, has negotiated some sofening of more dif- It is quite marvelous what you can levy new taxes upon fcult aspects. So to give them credit, it appears the govern- when you set your mind to it. Te folks opposite are having a ment can listen and adjust the legislation, and they have. Tis jolly time dreaming up new taxes in all directions. We await is a good thing. Tank you for that. with dread their next taxation innovation. As an example, here’s UDI’s October 16 press release. “UDI is pleased that the government committed today that L. Troness: It’s a pleasure today to speak to the specu- they will exempt lands under development from the unfair lation and vacancy tax bill, which is Bill 45. I want to take speculation and vacancy tax. Today’s announcement recog- my time to give this pestiferous bill the treatment it so richly nizes that government taxes, fees and charges on develop- deserves. ment lands contribute to the increased costs of building new I want to begin…. As my colleague from West Vancou- homes. Currently,” the press release goes on to say, “more ver–Capilano was just talking about, I want to talk about the than 25 percent of the cost of a new home can be directly title for a moment. Te word “speculation” has long been a attributed to government fees and charges.” trope of the lef. It was originally a word in the 1500s that What the UDI is saying — and they are the housing talked about scouting and exploring, but it has come to mean experts — is if you want to make housing 25 percent more someone who takes high risks to buy and sell in a market in afordable, well, a good frst step would be for government a way that alters market prices. itself to back of from the charges and fees that it is imposing All the great lefists, like Lenin and Mao and the Soviet on new housing. press…. Tey rail against speculators, along with landlords Te press release concludes by saying, “We urge the B.C. and capitalists and other counter-revolutionary elements. government to act in Budget 2019 to apply similar exemp- Here’s what a modern author said in a book about Brexit, tions for the new school tax and other increased property about the modern use of the word “speculator.” “In lefist taxes on development lands that will otherwise be passed demonology,” they said, “speculators were the epitome of on to eventual homebuyers and renters” — signed Anne parasitical money interest, the enemies of the real economy.” McMullin, UDI president and CEO. So when we come to the title of this bill, I’m not saying Finally, let’s see what the short-term market reaction has that the NDP were channeling Lenin or anything, but I’m been. As others have already pointed out, in Metro Van- sure they asked themselves: “We want to take a bunch of couver home sales were down 43 percent year over year in money from ordinary British Columbians’ pockets. How September. In Metro Vancouver, the number of homes lis- are we going to do that? We need an enemy to attack. We ted for sale is up 38 percent year over year in September. need someone we can focus on that will make the public Housing starts were down by about 40 percent in Metro angry, that will give us the political permission we need to Vancouver. impose this tax.” Te word “speculator” was just sort of snatched from the [R. Chouhan in the chair.] air. It was an unconscious reaction, because it’s in the DNA, the genes, of the lef. So we have this bill against these nasty To me, these numbers signal a very large market adjust- speculators that is not about speculators at all, as we will see. ment is underway. Some will say: “Well, it’s about time.” But I go back to the budget from 2018, in February, to fnd to me, the statistics indicate a demoralized real estate mar- out about the speculation tax. Tat was in February, eight keting and homebuilder sector. months ago. Two-thirds of a year has already passed, and 5766 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 now it’s been introduced in the House. It is supposed to raise Let’s talk about the tax for a moment. Let’s get something $87 million in this fscal year and $200 million every year out of the way. Te stated plan of the government is to thereafer. reduce home vacancies to reduce home prices by reducing Waiting eight months to introduce this bill has thrown the the incentive to buy and fip them without anybody occupy- housing market into uncertainty. A person from B.C. might ing them between one sale and another. Tat’s how they decide to go ahead and purchase a vacation home or not. defne “speculation.” But we need to disabuse ourselves of Should someone from Alberta, who intends to retire here, both of these notions right away. build in B.C.? Should a developer take a big fnancial risk on Tis tax will not reduce vacancies. It’s just going to drive a multi-unit development? investment out of the province and reduce the value of People have been waiting for eight months. In that time, homeowners, because it doesn’t target speculation. Instead, $1 billion in housing developments have been cancelled it targets people with second homes who are not planning since the bill was announced, even before it was tabled in the to sell them. Tey want to give them to their kids. Tey’ve House last week. had them for a long time. Tat’s why the speculation tax You know, the government approaches this whole issue has become known as a cabin tax. People who inherited with such nonchalance, an apparent lack of concern for their cabins from their parents and grandparents, who never uncertainty that they have introduced into the market. It intend to sell them, will be captured by this tax. indicates that they don’t really understand how a market Moreover, the tax is designed to target foreign owners, functions. Tey don’t hear the calls from real people that who will pay the highest rate of tax at 2 percent of a home they are hurting. valued at more than $400,000. But two-thirds of the 32,000 Ultimately, it’s our own economy that they are harming. homes that will be captured by this tax belong to British Tey are shooting B.C. and themselves in the foot. Why is Columbians, not rich foreigners — ordinary people, our that, Mr. Speaker? It’s because construction is an important friends and neighbours, Canadian citizens and B.C. resid- growth driver in this province. It accounted for $20 billion of ents, who live next door to us. its GDP in 2017, 200,000 jobs, $12 billion in wages, $25 bil- We can actually quantify the cost of the tax to British lion in investment value. Columbians, because more than 21,000 homes owned by You interrupt this fow, this stream, and you interrupt jobs British Columbians will be afected. By defnition, each of and family incomes. Tat’s not something that should be these properties are worth at least $400,000. At half a percent trifed with. But that’s what this government has been doing a year, the speculation tax will take in a minimum of $42 for the past eight months. million every year into the future and probably more than Who knows in Chilliwack what business opportunities that, because $400,000 is the minimum. Tis is from British have been lost due to this speculation about the speculation Columbians — people who own a cabin — not people who tax? are property-fippers and so-called speculators. Tis tax is [3:35 p.m.] pure punishment. It is class envy. Well, the minister has received a great deal of negative If you own a second home or a vacation home, you are feedback about the bill. She’s made some changes. She’s doing something wrong. “We’re going to take that home introduced some exemptions. I hope that at some point, away from you by degrees over time.” she will reveal how much the tax is now expected to raise, Let’s talk about the speculation tax. It has quickly become because the integrity of her fscal plan depends on it. apparent that the NDP have introduced not a speculation tax Te NDP have whittled away our surplus of $2.7 billion but an asset tax — a tax not on a stream of income but on the down to $300 million in the last budget. Who knows how value of an asset. It’s a tax on people’s savings when they hold much lower it’s gone because of the exemptions? In fact, just those savings in the form of a second home. on Friday, the NDP held a press conference in which they cut In this case, for a foreigner — say somebody from the U.S. the tax in half for Canadians outside of B.C. Now their rate or Hong Kong — it would be 2 percent of the value of the will be half a percent instead of 1 percent every year. home that’s worth more than $400,000. Tat’s $8,000 a year Tere have been other changes. Who knows? Maybe minimum. Over ten years, that will tax away a ffh of the tomorrow they’ll double it, or they’ll cut it for somebody value of that place — $666 a month. Tat’s a lot of money. else, as the government fies along by the seat of its fnancial Most people cannot aford to pay this tax whether they’re pants. So what do these changes do to the budget? Has the from the States or overseas. minister blown her budget? Tis is a big hole to fll. B.C. families whose cabins have been in place for a gen- But I would point out that they didn’t cut the tax on Friday eration will also be caught by this tax. Where will they fnd for British Columbians. Tey cut it for people outside of B.C. the money to pay for it? Tat’s $2,000 extra in addition to All the British Columbians who were captured by this tax property taxes, say, for a pair of grandparents on a fxed initially will still have to pay through the nose. You’d think income, who just want to entertain their grandkids at the if the minister wanted to give somebody a break, she’d give cabin. Tey’re not speculators. Tey’re hard-working British British Columbians a break frst — but not under this gov- Columbians. Te government has simply found an entirely ernment. Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5767 new feld of taxation, a new well into which they can dip um, the unincorporated Gulf Islands and the Juan de Fuca their tax bucket. electoral area were removed when Chilliwack was not. Why Once they have established the principle of taxing assets, were they removed? I’d like to know what members of gov- they will just be able to drop that bucket a little deeper, adjust ernment or what friends of the government have a second the rate a little bit, and more cash will pour into government home in those areas. To me, there’s a total lack of fairness cofers to be squandered on this or that NDP government here of due process, of transparency, of predictability. program. Let’s talk about foreigners for a moment. Let’s talk about [3:40 p.m.] Americans as foreigners. British Columbia residents are What is an asset tax, in reality? An asset tax is really a tax going to pay half a percent tax on a second home that’s on the hard work of British Columbians. It’s a tax on thrif, as not rented out for more than six months of the year. Cana- people scrimp for years to be able to aford a little cabin. It’s dians from outside the province will now pay the same, a tax on the discipline of saving to buy a nice vacation place. due to Friday’s amendments, and non-Canadians will pay It’s about taxing positive behaviour, punishing hard work, 2 percent of tax on the assessed value of their second home punishing thrif, punishing saving — good qualities followed every single year. by British Columbians. And if you tax those qualities, people Stewart wrote me a letter, and Stewart made a great point. are going to say: “Why bother saving? Why bother scrimping I want to quote from his letter. He said: “We all know that to buy something nice if it’s just going to be taxed away?” many B.C. residents leave B.C. to go to San Diego, California; Tis tax will change behaviour. Instead of a second home, Scottsdale, Arizona; Palm Desert, California; and other U.S. people are going to buy maybe a rec vehicle. Tey’re going to destinations when the weather isn’t ideal in Vancouver and drive to other provinces or the States with it. Maybe they’ll Victoria. Te United States does not assess a speculation tax buy a time-share somewhere or go out of the country for on these Canadian citizens, even though their properties in shorter, more expensive holidays. Tey’ll spend their money the U.S. are increasing in value and are vacant for parts of the outside of B.C. Tat’s what’s going to happen. year. Tey’re spending money in these cities, helping the loc- Or maybe they’ll sell their cabin — at a reduced price, al economy and paying their real estate taxes.” of course. Eventually, these cabins will decline in value as Maybe some American citizens — say, from Arizona — they’re sold and resold until their value falls under the who have a place in B.C. will complain to their state gov- $400,000 threshold so they’re no longer captured by the tax. ernment about our 2 percent tax, which will be a minim- Te market for cabins in the afected areas will be perman- um of $8,000 a year to them. You never know. Te presid- ently depressed. ent, a little while ago, seized on a minor trade issue, in rel- Now, you might say somebody would sell their cabin for ative terms, of supply management to make a point. Tis a lower price, still within B.C., but buy in an area outside kind of thing can catch on. the areas captured by the tax. But why would people do that As we learned in recent negotiations with the States, when the legislation allows cabinet to add new areas to the Americans don’t take it lightly when they feel unfairly ones presently captured by the tax? Te tax can follow them treated. I don’t know why, especially at this sensitive time, wherever they buy, so again we’re going to introduce uncer- the NDP would poke America in the eye, calling them for- tainty into the market. All it will mean is that the revenue eigners and punishing them with a 2 percent annual tax on for government will decline over time as people take natural their vacation property in B.C. Tey could arouse a sleeping steps to avoid the tax. giant, and that could turn very bad for B.C. snowbirds who Now, unfortunately, Chilliwack has the ill fortune to be have properties in the States. But probably the NDP did not included in the list of areas that will be captured by the tax. even consider this possibility. We’re lumped in with Abbotsford, Mission, the GVRD, Vic- [3:45 p.m.] toria, Nanaimo, Kelowna — what good luck — even though Now, I want to go on to individual letters that I received, Chilliwack has a vacancy rate of zero at the moment. Tere because there are a lot of individuals who the NDP is pun- are no empty homes. People are crying out for homes to rent. ishing. I received emails and letters from them. I want to Neither is there much speculation in Chilliwack, given that quote some of them, just so that the NDP can see who they’re housing sales this month are down 53 percent from last year. afecting. It’s not a speculators’ market. Here’s what Brian from Chilliwack says: “We have ren- How did Chilliwack get to be chosen in this blacklist of ted our Ryder Lake property, which is within the municip- taxation? Why Chilliwack? Why Kelowna? Tere’s no ality of Chilliwack, for over 20 years. It has provided a very rationale. It’s completely arbitrary public policy. Tere’s no convenient getaway for myself and my family, and now my consistency across the province, no sense of fairness. I think grandkids. I resent that the government has branded my the government just looked for the biggest cash cow to milk, efort to provide a retreat for my family as speculation. I and it exempted some areas. further resent that I am somehow placed in the same pot Which areas did they exempt? Te Premier and the Min- as those who are playing a real estate game to make a quick ister of Finance owe an explanation to the people of Chilli- proft.” wack. Tey owe an explanation as to why Parksville, Qualic- Here’s what Ken and Carla wrote to me: 5768 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018

“My wife and I own a property in Chilliwack and have been long- latitude of using it as a short-term rental so that we could be able term residents of Chilliwack for over 35 years. Five years ago, we to make use of the condo several times per year. Eventually, we will moved to Vancouver because work took us there, so we bought a transition to British Columbia, with our primary residence being the small condo in downtown Vancouver, where we live during the week. condo. We return to Chilliwack on Fridays and are here for the weekends. “We found a condo that met these needs and requirements, put an “We do not want to rent our property in Chilliwack, because we ofer on it and purchased it, renovated it and ft it up with furniture. plan to have it as our retirement property in a few years, plus we We do carry a hefy mortgage on the condo and a lot of credit for the spend our weekends at our Chilliwack home. We will not be able to furniture ft-up. aford this speculation tax if it is imposed as proposed, and would “We want to use the rental for ourselves as a vacation home during be forced to sell one of our properties. Tis tax will dramatically and the course of the year. Renting it out long-term would not allow this. quickly whittle away at our savings.” “If the speculation tax is passed and we would have to pay it, we would have a major loss of moneys due to ftting up the condo with Tat’s what it’s designed to do. furnishings for a short-term rental. To switch the condo over to a Here’s what Corny from Chilliwack had to say in his letter long-term rental would be a fnancial catastrophe for our family.” to me: “Tis new tax will only serve to drive up the costs of [3:50 p.m.] new housing and further harm afordability. A home is the Finally, I want to quote Kay from Arizona, who has spent bedrock of many families in B.C. Being pushed out of the every summer here in B.C. for the past 15 years. She says market because of unafordability dramatically increases fn- this: “Sadly, if this tax is approved, we would likely decide to ancial insecurity.” sell our second home and lose the many memories we share Here’s what Sharon from Chilliwack said to me: “Tis tax with the B.C. community every summer.” Well, I think we isn’t going to address afordability issues or even target the should be sad to lose Kay and all those American dollars she real speculators. Te people who will be hit by this patch- spends every year here in B.C. as a tourist. On and on it goes. work tax are law-abiding Canadian taxpayers. Tis is not the What does the business community say? One would nor- speculation tax we wanted.” mally think that the government would consider what the Here’s a story from Dean and Heather. Dean and Heather fnancial community thinks. Tey would be concerned that say this: the business community, the political community, would “I grew up in Kelowna, did part of my university education in Vic- accept it. While nobody likes an increase in taxes, sometimes toria and later worked in Victoria for several years. Later my career the business community will grudgingly agree: “Well, maybe path took me out of province, and I’ve been in Calgary for the past 16 years. it’s a fair tax. Maybe it’s reasonable. Maybe it’s necessary.” But “Because of my vacation home purchase, my family and friends not in this case. Tere is no acceptance among the partners have enjoyed many wonderful summer vacations and ski holidays in of government around B.C. the Okanagan. We eventually plan to retire to our home in Kelowna Let me talk about that for a moment. Mayors have for the major portion of the year. I think it is entirely inappropriate to ask us to suddenly begin to pay such an onerous speculation tax on a opposed it. Mayors from Oak Bay, from Langford, from property I have legally held for years in the province. Kelowna, from West Kelowna have called on the provincial “I’ve paid my property taxes each year. I’ve supported the local government, at the recent UCBM meeting, to allow jurisdic- economy by way of purchasing two Kelowna homes and completely tions to opt out of the tax. Te UBCM passed a resolution on renovating one of them. I support the local hockey team, multiple res- taurants, local merchants and arts and theatre venues in Kelowna. We it. Here’s what Kelowna mayor Colin Basran said in Septem- are hardly a burden on the local economy. In fact, we’ve done a lot ber. He made a good point. “I am concerned,” he said, “that over the years to help the local economy. Just ask the Kelowna resid- it’s not equitable, because it’s not provincewide. True spec- ents we’ve done business with.” ulators can simply purchase in neighbouring communities Here’s Beverly. Beverly is the manager of a short-term- without contributing to the tax.” rental property in Victoria. Tey have 12 employees. Tey’ve Even academics disagree with it. Andrey Pavlov, at Simon been part of the local economy for 25 years. She says this: Fraser University’s Beedie School of Business, said that the “B.C.’s NDP government is treating Canadians as foreigners. tax is poorly named because it does little to curb speculation Te proposed tax is a punishment tax, designed to sharply and that it is actually more of a vacancy tax. Pavlov said: discourage vacation home ownership.” “It might provide short-term relief for rental-vacancy and Here’s what Leanne says: “What makes this all the more housing prices, but government’s move to limit homeowner agonizing is this: we already pay a premium because we have rights will actually discourage long-term development. It’s a family cottage. We pay more property tax because we don’t just going to backfre in the long run because that measure beneft from the principal home exemption. If we did decide alone, without the corresponding increase in supply, is going to sell the home, then we would pay capital gains tax, so — to reduce new supply even further.” Tat’s what he said. boom! — we’re not getting away with anything. We already Let me talk about what some others in the business com- pay for this foresight of buying a vacation home for now, munity say. According to the Canadian Federation of Inde- which turns into our retirement home later. We pay and pay pendent Business, two-thirds of businesses oppose the spec- and pay.” ulation tax. Richard Truscott, their vice-president for B.C. Barbara says this: and Alberta, had this to say: “Tis patchwork tax on vacant property and new development will kill jobs and hurt local “In April 2017, we started looking at condos that allowed us the economies. We have already seen a major chill go through Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5769 the home-building and tourism sectors, especially in places Hon. D. Eby: I rise to speak in support of the bill and the like the Okanagan. Te government needs a plan that will Finance Minister’s incredible efort in putting this piece of target actual foreign speculators and not catch long-term legislation together. Let me tell you, in my community, in B.C. homeowners and other Canadians in the crossfre.” Vancouver–Point Grey, that this bill is an example to every- Let’s quote the B.C. Chamber of Commerce. Tat’s a very one of the impact that they can have in getting involved in important business group. Te president, Val Litwin, has government. said this: “We are hearing from small to medium-sized busi- So many people spoke out on speculation in our housing ness owners across B.C. who are already feeling the ripple market, concerns about individuals buying properties — efect…. Te last thing we want to do is slam the door on interestingly to the Leader of the Opposition, from Canadians who’ve been working hard their whole lives to Quilchena, many people from his community — people buy- save and retire in B.C. It’s not good for B.C.’s or Canada’s ing houses, who have no source of income and pay no taxes brand. Te outcome is less economic activity, less employ- in British Columbia, and leaving the properties vacant. ment and, ironically, less supply in the housing market.” Neighbourhoods that used to be vibrant places flled with Here’s what the Independent Contractors and Businesses children playing on the streets, with neighbours who knew Association had to say. “While the government wants to each other, are now silent. address housing afordability, this patchwork tax will do the Houses are vacant and empty. So many people who exact opposite. It will kill jobs, make the housing afordabil- wanted to live in those communities are coming and saying: ity issue worse and hurt the B.C. tourism industry.” “We could work two lifetimes and never be able to aford to Let’s go to the Canadian Home Builders Association. live in Vancouver.” Here’s what they had to say: “Te tax, as it stands, will neg- When you look at the unfairness of people buying prop- atively impact the estimated 60-plus diferent types of trades erty, not living in it, not paying taxes…. Ten the people who that contribute to the construction of new homes across the live in the community — who pay taxes, who work hard, province, as well as slow the pace of residential construction who want a place for their families — want to stay in the in general.” communities they love. Tat is what drove a bunch of people Finally, Neil Moody, the CEO of the Canadian Home to get involved in the election, in government, and to talk to Builders Association, reported this: “Potential homebuy- members on both sides of the House about concerns in the ers have already begun to scrap plans to build new homes housing market. in a variety of regions that are both inside and outside I’m going to mention a couple of names. Justin Fung from of the boundaries outlined in the tax.” Tis is what he HALT spoke out about this — a young computer developer said: “Uncertainty in the real estate market is growing, and and his family. Te tech sector in Vancouver is so important we’re even hearing of trades approaching larger contract- and challenged by the fact that people earning incredible ors, looking for work.” wages, well above the median salary in Metro Vancouver, What’s the solution to condo fipping? Our leader, the can’t aford Vancouver. Eveline Xia, who started the member for Vancouver-Quilchena, introduced a true specu- #DontHave1Million movement on social media, is speaking lation tax, in the form of a private member’s bill. Here’s what on behalf of young people, saying how unfair it is, not just he called it. He called it the Strata Pre-Sale Contract Flipping temporarily but forever priced out of the Vancouver real Tax Act, 2018. It is meant to address the real problem, which estate market. is the short-term, quick fipping of expensive condos around Tom Davidof, who wrote the housing afordability fund B.C., mainly in Vancouver, but it would apply to everywhere proposal, on which this legislation is ultimately based — in B.C. and to everyone, without distinction. incredible work done by these young people, by Professor It would be a tax amounting to 50 percent of the increase Davidof, to speak out and say: “Tere is something that can in price when a condo is fipped, on paper, without being be done. Tere is a proposal that can be made.” occupied in between. Tat would work like a charm. It would No surprise that the opposition opposes this. Tey made be fair. It wouldn’t tax savings or assets. It would give a very their side very clear in the debate when we were in oppo- real fnancial incentive to have those places occupied instead sition, when I would stand up again and again and say: of sold and resold while standing vacant. It would accom- “People are being priced out of the real estate market forever. plish all that the Minister of Finance wants to do, and prob- We have communities that are silent that used to be vibrant. ably raise the same amount of money. Tey’re flled with vacant homes. It’s unacceptable. Please do [3:55 p.m.] something about it.” Tey did not. What’s the diference between the two approaches? Te Well, the Finance Minister has done incredible work, diference is that we on this side of the House respect turning what was really — and with respect to Professor people’s savings and assets. We want to encourage more of Davidof — a sketch of a proposal into legislation that is it. But on that side, the minister wants a whole new feld of exhaustive, that is flled with exemptions for British Colum- taxation, a whole new world of possibilities for bigger gov- bians facing everything from disability to diferent chal- ernment, funded by the savings and thrif and hard work of lenges that might lead them to have to leave a home vacant British Columbians. Tat is why I will be opposing Bill 45. 5770 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018

for some reason. What she’s done is address the core issue do not understand the bill. Tey demonstrate their continu- that we face. ing ignorance with the things that they say… I can only assume that the members on the other side that have spoken against this do not know what’s been Interjections. happening in Metro Vancouver. Homes bought by stu- dents. Homes bought by housewives. Homes bought by Deputy Speaker: Members. numbered companies. Homes bought by trusts. Transpar- ency International is saying that the top 50 most-expens- Hon. D. Eby: …which are nothing short of shocking. ive properties in Vancouver are owned by individuals with no apparent source of income. Interjections. Tis bill will enable and…. Finally, formally, someone will come and say: “Where did the money come from to buy this Deputy Speaker: Te Attorney General has the foor, property?” How overdue is that? please. [4:00 p.m.] Continue. We’re not talking about seniors with lifetimes of paying taxes in British Columbia here. We’re talking about the real- Hon. D. Eby: If they were comfortable with what they ity of somebody buying a home, a multi-million-dollar had done on housing, if they were comfortable and confdent home, with no apparent source of income — the most with what they had done on housing, they wouldn’t be expensive properties in Vancouver. yelling at me in second reading right now. Tey would say: “We did so much on housing. How could you possibly say Interjections. that people without a source of income are buying housing? How could you possibly say that?” Deputy Speaker: Members. It’s notorious. It’s notorious that this has been happening. I can tell those members that these are the same members that Hon. D. Eby: Te members on the other side will kick thought we didn’t have a problem in casinos either. and scream, because they know why this tax has public sup- port. Tey know why this tax has widespread public support. Interjection. Groups, independent groups, like Transparency Internation- al Canada…. Almost 50 percent of the most expensive prop- Hon. D. Eby: Tat’s right. erties in Vancouver — who owns them? Who provided the Tese are the same members that thought we didn’t have money? How did that happen? a problem at ICBC. When they were on this side, did they say: “Tis is an Te Minister of Finance and her staf are going to go important question. We should fnd out”? Real estate is the out and ask the questions. You know what? If the answers biggest part of the Metro Vancouver economy, about 40 per- come back and there’s no problem, then no problem. But we cent. Where is the money coming from? What’s driving this are going to ask the questions: where did the income come market? Let’s learn more about it. Let’s get the statistics. Let’s from? I think that in establishing that, we’re answering the share information with Revenue Canada. It didn’t happen. concerns of many, many British Columbians. When the Finance Minister puts this bill together and I am so proud of what the Finance Minister has done here. commits to British Columbians that she’s going to ask these I am so thrilled. Tis is, in many ways — although it will be questions…. Tey are difcult questions. I understand that. difcult for some people; I acknowledge that — essential, an Tere are lots of people who will say: “Oh, no problem. I sold essential ingredient, to addressing the housing crisis. a place, bought another place. No problem.” But there are a Te members on the other side say that if you address group of people that will have difculty explaining how it is speculation, if you address vacant homes, developers will that they’re declaring poverty-level incomes and buying mil- stop building homes. What? Tey’re building homes only to lion-dollar homes. I think it’s okay to ask the question. be held vacant? Tis is what the development industry is I would like to say to everybody out there — and there are based on? Tis is what the members on the opposite side many, many thousands of people who have spoken out about are defending? If you tax empty homes, developers will stop this: “Government has been listening.” Tis is why you con- building homes, because that’s who they’re building homes tact an MLA. Tis is why you show up to a housing forum. for — for people to hold them vacant as investments? Tis is why. We want developers to build homes for people to live in. How do you avoid this oppressive tax? You rent out the We want developers to build homes for people to rent. Tat place. In a housing market with vacancy rates lower than 1 is the commitment of this government. We have a huge array percent, how on earth could you avoid this oppressive tax? of programs that will facilitate that — everything from rent- You rent it out, or you live in it, and you pay taxes in British al-only zoning. Incredible things. Columbia. [4:05 p.m.] Te members on the other side have not read the bill. Tey Te work is well underway. Tere’s no question that we Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5771 are discouraging the construction of properties to be held take in his speech on Bill 40, saying it was embarrassing for vacant, and we are encouraging the use of houses as a place him. How’s that secretariat working? to live, as a place to build community, as a place to raise a Te Finance Minister herself contributed to the confusion family, as a place that they were intended to be. around this tax, indicating: “Te tax will target foreign and I thank the Finance Minister for bringing this bill forward. domestic speculators who own residential property in B.C. but don’t pay taxes here, including those who leave their T. Redies: I rise to speak to second reading of Bill 45. units sitting vacant.” Trough much of the spring and even I do say, though, like my colleague from Prince today, she kept saying 99 percent of British Columbians George–Valemount, I was kind of surprised that the other wouldn’t be impacted by the tax. But of course, 99 percent of side stopped debate on Bill 40 last week to speak to this par- British Columbians don’t own vacation homes. ticular bill. With the referendum in full swing, I would’ve It’s curious to me that the Finance Minister continues to thought the responsible action of government would be to position this tax as a solution to stop foreigners speculating continue the debate on that bill. Instead, the government in our real estate market. Anyone with common sense would chose to stop debate on Bill 40. know that most second homes would be owned by British It must mean, from my perspective, that the government Columbians, because people who have vacation homes typ- is really anxious to get this speculation tax legislation ically want to be able to get to them quickly and, ideally, through, and I can see why. With sales down 20 to 30 percent without fying. year over year and annualized housing starts down by 43 Afer pointing this out to the minister in spring estimates, percent, property tax revenues must be dropping like a rock we asked point-blank: how many homes were afected by the for this government. It certainly looked like that based on tax, and what percentage of the homeowners were British the frst quarter results, as the government’s forecasted rev- Columbians? Not surprisingly, the minister fnally coughed enue from property tax was down $50 million in the frst up that of the 32,000 homes afected, 20,000 were owned by three months. British Columbians, 10,000 by foreigners and 2,000 by other In fact, afer listening to the last few speakers on that side Canadians. of the House, it seems like the Finance Minister needs a big Well, well. So this is not a speculation tax aimed at for- group hug. Property sales in this province have been declin- eigners. It’s an ongoing asset tax levied mostly on British ing so rapidly that I suspect the government may be under a Columbians and Canadians, who already pay a lot of bit of pressure to make its forecasted numbers. It will be very income, property and other taxes in Canada and B.C. interesting to see the September 30 results. [4:10 p.m.] Let me come to Bill 45 specifcally. Interestingly, as many Only 31 percent of the people captured by this tax are the of my colleagues on this side have pointed out, this tax is no foreigners that this government likes to blame for all the evils longer called the speculation tax. It is now the speculation in the real estate market in B.C., and that has not changed and vacancy tax. Tat’s because it never was a speculation with the introduction of this detailed legislation in Bill 45. tax. Tis was always an asset tax, a wealth tax, a cabin tax. It Te tax still covers the same geographic areas amended was a lot of things, but it was never a true speculation tax, in March 2018. Tat amendment occurred because the ini- and that’s because it really doesn’t address fipping, which is tial introduction created a frestorm with British Columbi- what speculation is all about. ans, especially those owning cabins on the Gulf Islands and It’s more so a vacancy tax, designed to force owners with vacation homes in Parksville-Qualicum and in Juan de Fuca. second properties in certain key markets to rent out their Te initial modifcation, while welcomed by this side of properties or face punitive taxation. At least the Finance the House, raised some eyebrows. Te Gulf Islands, of Minister has got the name half-right this time. But this tax course, made sense because they were summer cabins with has been half-baked and poorly understood from the start, little long-term rental potential. But why was Parksville- even by the very people responsible for its introduction. Qualicum exempted if places like Kelowna and West Kelow- When the tax was introduced in Budget 2018, three days na were still hit? Well, of course, the leader of the Green later, at a Vancouver Board of Trade luncheon, the Premier Party has a second home in Parksville-Qualicum, and as far had this to say: “If you pay tax in B.C., you are not speculat- as Juan de Fuca goes…. Well, we all know who was respons- ing from outside B.C. If you have a home in Vancouver and ible for that riding, don’t we? a home in Penticton that you visit in the summer or to ski As an owner of a cottage in my riding, Dawn, said: “Tis in the winter, that would not fall in with the out-of-province tax is hypocritical, and worse, it is presented with the most speculation tax.” cynical spin imaginable. It will have zero impact on aford- Even the leader of the Green Party was misinformed. ability. It panders to ignorance and fear and prejudice. It is Shortly afer the tax was introduced, he advised a constitu- insulting. It exposes this government’s ideological and shal- ent: “Tis tax does not apply to British Columbians. Anyone low thinking.” who pays income tax in B.C. is exempt. You are able to own Now, notwithstanding the March changes, this tax still multiple homes without being subject to the tax.” To his covers municipalities in the capital regional district, muni- credit, the leader of the Green Party acknowledged the mis- cipalities in the Metro Vancouver regional district — other 5772 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 than Lions Bay — the cities of Abbotsford, Chilliwack, with their families. Now this investment looks like a mistake, Kelowna, Nanaimo and West Kelowna and the districts of because they’ll be paying the spec tax for years to come. Lantzville and Mission. But the details of the legislation now [4:15 p.m.] indicate that the government can expand the tax to other With this spec tax, government has picked winners and regions by order-in-council. Tat means, friends, if the gov- losers. Trough no fault of their own, people like Greg and ernment doesn’t get its desired tax revenue from this still Jody are losers. Even if they sell their property now, they half-baked tax, the speculation and vacancy tax is coming to will be selling at a discount. Many of these properties were a town near you. built as second vacation homes, not permanent residences. Under the legislation, the 2018 rate for all properties sub- Prospective buyers would have been people like them, but ject to the tax is 0.5 percent of the property value. In 2019 that market is now choked of. Few people are going to buy and subsequent years, the tax rates will be 2 percent for for- a second property in these areas only to pay tax on it for eign investors and satellite families and 0.5 percent for Brit- an eternity. ish Columbians who are Canadian citizens or permanent I have had hundreds of letters and phone calls from Cana- residents but not members of a satellite family. Tanks to this dians outside the province who are also afected by this tax. coming amendment, other Canadians will also be levied at At least this government stopped its ofensive higher levy on the same 0.5 percent rate. other Canadians. Taking a discriminatory approach to Cana- Te tax continues to be punitive to British Columbians dians who are paying federal income taxes that beneft Brit- and Canadians who, by virtue of wanting to have a vacation ish Columbians…. home or a retirement home in B.C., are now hammered by this government, starting in 2018 and continuing on ad Interjections. infnitum. Tis tax is primarily hitting British Columbians who have worked hard and bought vacation homes for their Deputy Speaker: Te member has the foor. enjoyment or have vacation homes that have been in their families for generations. T. Redies: Tank you. I’ve received literally hundreds of letters from British Taking a discriminatory approach to Canadians who are Columbians and Canadians upset over this tax. Te stories paying federal income taxes that beneft British Columbia they have shared with me convince me that the people who through federal health transfers and afordable housing pro- are being truly devastated by this tax are middle-class Brit- grams was just plain wrong. Te tax is still wrong. ish Columbians like Greg and Jody from Surrey, B.C. Greg Again, the majority of people caught by this tax are not writes: wealthy speculators. Tey’re average British Columbians and “I worked for 32 years as a police ofcer and retired in 2013. My Canadians who’ve invested in our province for years — wife is retiring this June as a school teacher, afer 29 years. Te two of spending their money, paying property tax, contributing to us have contributed to the B.C. economy and paid income tax for 70 local charities and volunteering in their local communities. years. We always wanted to try and save up and see if we could be able All they wanted to do was to have a vacation or a hope for a to purchase a part-time residence near Kelowna, where my wife grew up. We also wanted to try and help our children through university. retirement home in our beautiful province. Instead, this gov- So we saved and saved and worked very hard. ernment is treating them like pariahs. “Last year we purchased a presale unit in a strata property that’s Tis tax punishes families for planning their futures. north of Kelowna in McKinley Beach. We paid $459,000 for it. On People like Debbie from Ontario, who writes: this purchase, we will also be paying almost $23,000 in GST and, of course, the wonderful B.C. property transfer tax of $7,180 — over “Because we’re out of province, we do not get the seniors ex- $30,000 in these extra costs alone. emption on the property tax. We pay property tax of $2,000 a year, “To the people supporting this tax,” he goes on to say, “where were and with the initial proposed tax, we would be paying an additional those people when I was working overtime shifs at 4 a.m., searching $3,500, for $5,500 a year. a drunk homeless man who unfortunately defecated his pants before “Do you, Minister of Finance, have any concept of how much he got in the police wagon to go to detox? Where were they when my money this is for us? Let me help you. Our Canada pension is $9,000 wife was tutoring kids on weekends and in the summer to pay home afer tax a year. Kelowna is a city of retirees. Your calculation is not expenses? Now we have to fgure out if my wife should cancel her re- based on any sense of reality or afordability. How can we aford this? tirement.” “We have been contributing to your province for almost 50 years and are currently doing so. Look around you. Te roads, the health I have hundreds of letters like this from middle-class Brit- care, your education — we have contributed to your province.” ish Columbians who are now looking at selling the proper- ties they worked hard to acquire or postponing their retire- No wonder people like Debbie and many others feel ment — all to pay for this ill-conceived, poorly thought- they’ve been ripped of and duped by this government. At through so-called speculation tax. People who have the very least, the government could have grandfathered struggled and saved over the years…. Instead of buying for- people like Greg, Jody and Debbie. Afer all, they’re not spec- eign properties, they put their money into B.C. so they could ulators. Tey’re long-term taxpayers in our province and in have a second place to call home, to visit from time to time this country. Te municipalities are feeling it too. Places like Langford, West Kelowna and Kelowna have seen over $1 billion in Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5773 development contracts cancelled or postponed. While the able housing if the private sector is running from this market legislation provides some relief to property developers, the like a herd of stampeding bufalo? problem is this spec tax has chased away the end buyers who It’s not just housing starts that are down. Sales are also made the economics of these projects afordable enough to down. According to the Real Estate Board of Greater Van- be able to ofer new inventory to local buyers. Without Brit- couver, the supply of residential homes hit a three-year high, ish Columbians or Albertans looking for a summer property, but sales were down almost 38 percent, compared to the the market has narrowed so much that developers don’t want same month last year, and 29 percent below the ten-year to take the risk of building and not being able to sell out. June average. I’m sure others on that side of the House…. In fact, the AG In the capital, the Victoria Real Estate Board is reporting a mentioned this. Why don’t the developers just build rent- 29.8 percent decrease in sales, compared to the same month al property? Well, with the new tenancy rules, the rental in 2017. Why is this happening? Supply is increasing rapidly, increase is capped at infation, and the true costs of landlords so why is this happening? If the government’s plan was work- are rising at around 8 percent a year. Te economics on ing, the increase in supply should have been snapped up. But building rental properties don’t work anymore either. that’s not what is happening. Tat’s because British Columbi- All this government has done with its plethora of taxes is ans, Canadians and other potential investors are losing con- drop the price of $3 million-plus homes by 20 or 25 percent, fdence in this market. which isn’t going to help frst-time buyers. It has killed thou- As said by Kyle Kerr, president of the Victoria Real Estate sands of new-sale units coming on to the market, and it has Board: “Demand-side measures that are not yet live, like destroyed the economics of building rental properties in the the…speculation tax, are dragging the market down as many province. Well done, government. Well done. So much for consumers stand aside to watch what happens.” As a result, adding to the afordable housing supply in this province. we are seeing price drops certainly in the higher-end homes, Tis is not just choking of afordable sales or rental units. and we are now also seeing that in the condos, which I know It’s now starting to create a pall on employment in these sec- this minister wanted to happen. tors. Companies like the Staburn Group in West Kelowna It is true. We do have a housing crisis in B.C. Many of us write: “We are part of a group that owns a large acreage at on this side have said that. But too few middle-class homes Goat’s Peak, which we have worked on for over a decade.” have been built in this province. To a certain extent, we all Tis company has been trying for a decade to get a com- wanted housing prices to moderate or even correct modestly prehensive plan passed. It is a project exceeding 1,000 new by 5 or 10 percent. But the question is: where will these price housing units. drops end? [4:20 p.m.] I remind the minister, a 25 percent drop in home prices in Te gentleman goes on to say: “We were about to submit B.C. will put one in four mortgagers under water. Sure, a cor- a rezoning and subdivision application for the frst phase rection of this magnitude will help people not in the market, of over 100 lots, with roads and services exceeding $8 mil- but it will be a heavy price to pay for those young families lion. We have now stopped all engineering, planning and who aren’t speculators, who’ve scrimped and saved over the design work and put the whole thing on the shelf until a years to get just enough money to get a down payment and change of government. Ten or 15 professionals immediately get in the market. impacted. Hundreds more person-years in employment on Te minister’s spec tax will not help those people who construction…. Largest housing project ever in West Kelow- have to try and renew their mortgage if the value of their na stopped dead.” home is less than their outstanding loan. It’s not just Kelowna that’s been impacted. Macdonald I was speaking to the mayor of Langford, and he made a Development cancelled 600 new homes in Langford and 110 good point — that speculators typically don’t speculate in lots in Kelowna, worth a total of $500 million. Belmont declining markets. You can’t short sell individual housing Properties has put a hold on almost 600 market and rental stock. properties in Victoria, to name a few. No one is going to buy housing for speculation purposes Hundred of millions of dollars in investment up in a puf when anyone with a brain can see there’s only one way this of smoke, thousands of jobs lost — all because this govern- market is going, and that is down. But curiously enough in ment cooked up a tax that mostly taxes British Columbians this bill, the government has actually opened up a window and Canadians who want a second home in B.C. of speculation — a short-term one, mind you, but a window Not surprisingly, housing starts, a leading indicator for nonetheless. the health of the property market, have fallen dramatically. If you buy a home and you pay property transfer tax or Annualized housing starts in B.C. have fallen 43 percent year you have a frst-time-buyer or newly built homes exemption, over year — to just 25,600 units that are predicted, well of you don’t have to pay the spec tax for a year. So, theoretically, the 36,000 to 38,000 in housing unit starts that we’ve seen you could sell the house on day 364 and not be subject to the over the last several years. It’s even worse in Victoria, where spec tax, even if you lef it vacant for the preceding 364 days. the housing starts are of by 56 percent year over year. Tat’s very curious, indeed, for a government that is trying Tell me, just how is this government going to build aford- to stop speculation. 5774 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018

Te mayor of Langford has also shared his concerns with lowed through on his threat, we could have axed this divis- the Finance Minister about how this tax is driving invest- ive, poorly conceived tax and stopped some of the uninten- ment and jobs away from his community, something he has ded consequences that we are seeing in the market today. successfully cultivated in Langford for a number of years. Not surprisingly, I will be voting against the entirety of [4:25 p.m.] this bill, knowing that it is one of the worst pieces of tax He says that the proposed speculation tax will negatively legislation ever to come before this House. Tat’s because it impact long-term non-resident owners who are purchasing will pit community against community. It will lead to lost property with the intention of moving to British Columbia development and jobs. It won’t increase the housing supply once they retire; negatively impact the economy and jobs, as over the medium and longer term, and it certainly won’t lead it will discourage investment in British Columbia and our to afordable housing for the middle class. Te tax was wrong communities; reduce the revenue available to the province when it was introduced. It was wrong when it was amended and to local governments, thereby reducing the number and in March, and it is wrong now. quality of services and amenities that can be provided; work against continued eforts to develop a more afordable hous- Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the minister ing market; and ultimately, devalue people’s homes by 20 to will close the debate. 30 percent without creating any more afordable housing. It’s not just the mayor of Langford who is opposed. At Hon. C. James: Tank you to all the members who took the most recent UCBM, local governments stood up and part in this debate and in this discussion on second reading. opposed the government’s reckless implementation of the Tere are a number of pieces that I could spend a long time speculation tax. It wasn’t just the afected communities. addressing, but I think we’ve had a lot of debate, and we’ll Many other local governments stood up and spoke out continue to have a lot of debate, I’m sure, on the speculation against the tax, because they suspected — rightly so — that and vacancy tax. But I think there are a couple of key pieces if their city is not afected today, tomorrow it could be a dif- that I just want to close of on. ferent manner. Lo and behold, as indicated earlier, they were Te frst one, most important piece, is why we are doing right, because this legislation says new areas can be added or this, why the speculation and vacancy tax is coming forward. dropped by regulation alone. It is coming forward because we have a housing crisis in Brit- Mayors, against their wishes, could have this highly pun- ish Columbia. We’ve just gone through a municipal election. itive, distortive tax piled on their communities with zero In this municipal election, what was the topic of discussion debate in the House. Tough the mayors called unanimously for candidates from all diferent political stripes? For candid- for an opt-out clause, the Minister of Finance said, dis- ates who are experienced or new, for people who were run- missively, that she would not let municipalities pick and ning for mayor and council, the biggest topic of discussion, choose what provincial initiatives they support or reject. So because it’s the topic of discussion for British Columbians, is much for collaboration with the mayors. the issue of afordable housing. People are facing a crisis. Finally, while I appreciate that the member for Oak You know, story afer story…. I hear the member talking Bay–Gordon Head worked to reduce the discriminatory about the letters she receives from other provinces, from rate for other Canadians, I’m disappointed that he didn’t people who have a second home or a third home here in follow through on his initial intention to vote against the British Columbia. Well, I think we need to also remember tax. Te mayors didn’t want a meeting; they wanted an the thousands of individuals in British Columbia who are opt-out clause. struggling, looking for housing, the seniors who, I can tell Te member for Oak Bay–Gordon Head thinks that this you, have come into my ofce, who are living in their cars. meeting will give the mayors the opportunity to present Te individual in Vancouver who has camped underneath a evidence, the facts of what this tax is doing to their com- bridge in his RV because that’s all he had to be able to live, munities, and somehow this will convince the Minister of because he couldn’t fnd a place to live. Finance to back of. But the mayors have already been pres- enting evidence. Tey already know what is happening to [L. Reid in the chair.] their communities — $1 billion in lost developments already, sales down by 20 to 30 percent, housing starts by 43 percent I mean, this is a crisis point when we have families with and not one iota of incremental, afordable, long-term hous- children who are having to tell their children that they’re ing. How much evidence does this Finance Minister need camping so the kids aren’t upset — “We’re just having a before she recognizes that this is not the way to create sus- camping experience” — because they lost their housing and tainable and afordable long-term housing? spent months looking for housing. Te chances of this Finance Minister axing the tax are zero [4:30 p.m.] to none, and we all know that. Tis is just a sham to help the Tat’s not the kind of British Columbia that anyone in this leader of the Green Party save face, because he’s been say- province deserves. Te people in British Columbia expect ing for months he would vote against the tax. It’s disappoint- their government to be responsible and act on the biggest ing, because if the MLA for Oak Bay–Gordon Head had fol- crisis facing them. Tat is what we are going to do. Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5775

We have a responsibility to act, a responsibility to the I’m very proud of the 30-point plan that we have put togeth- people of British Columbia. Tis should be no surprise to er. Most importantly, I’m so proud to be part of a govern- anyone. Tis was an issue that came forward during the elec- ment with a Premier who understands that standing up for tion. Tis is an issue that came forward when we came in the people of British Columbia is our job, that as the Premier on budget. Tis is an issue that was in the budget in Feb- ofen tells us, we are to get up each and every day and spend ruary. Moving ahead on this piece is an important part of the day looking at how we can make life better for the people our 30-point plan that I’m so proud to work on with my col- of British Columbia. league the Minister of Housing. Tat’s why we were elected. Tat’s why we’re government. We recognize that there is not one solution to the housing Tat’s the work we’re going to continue to do. crisis. Tere’s not one tax or one measure that is going to With that, I move second reading. instantly make the housing crisis go away afer 16 years of [4:35 p.m. - 4:40 p.m.] neglect. It’s going to take a comprehensive approach. Tat’s exactly the work that my colleague and I did over the fall. We [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] took time to talk to all kinds of groups and organizations and business groups and landlords and developers and individu- Second reading of Bill 45 approved on the following als who were struggling for housing. division: What did we come up with? We came up with a 30-point YEAS — 43 comprehensive housing plan that includes addressing supply and demand — not one or the other, because again, we’ve got Chouhan Kahlon Begg to address them all; that came up with ideas around tenancy Brar Heyman Donaldson and supporting renters because, again, we have a crisis when Mungall Bains Beare it comes to renting in this province. When you look at a zero Chen Popham Trevena vacancy rate in many of the communities that we’re facing, Sims Chow Kang we have to address this issue. Simons D’Eith Routley I think it’s also important to recognize that we are not Ma Elmore Dean addressing this issue simply for the people who need hous- Routledge Singh Leonard ing. Yes, they’re front and centre. Yes, we’re going to fght on Darcy Simpson Robinson behalf of the people of British Columbia because that, in fact, Farnworth Horgan James is what a government should do — fght and serve the people Eby Dix Ralston of British Columbia. But we’re also doing this because this is Mark Fleming Conroy a huge economic issue. Fraser Chandra Herbert Rice Tis is the biggest crisis facing employers. Again, Vancou- Furstenau Weaver Olsen ver Board of Trade, B.C. Chamber of Commerce…. When Glumac we looked at the discussion last fall, the discussion that came NAYS — 40 forward was: “You have to address the issue of housing, because we can’t recruit and retain employees. When they Cadieux de Jong Bond take a look at the real estate market, they go elsewhere. Tey Polak Wilkinson Lee move out of the province.” Stone Coleman Wat I know all of us have seen those heartbreaking stories Bernier Tornthwaite Paton from individuals who love this province, who want to live Ashton Barnett Yap and work in the community that they grew up in but who Martin Davies Kyllo have no option in the entire region because of the lack of Sullivan Isaacs Morris afordable housing. Stilwell Ross Oakes And 99 percent of British Columbians will not pay this Johal Redies Rustad tax. We are talking about asking people who have second Milobar Sturdy Shypitka and third homes to contribute to the housing crisis. If they Hunt Troness Tegart want to avoid paying the tax, they can rent their place out, Stewart Sultan Gibson because that, again, contributes to the housing crisis that Reid Tomson Larson we’re facing. Foster I heard the member ask about municipalities and choice by municipalities. I’m going to continue as I’ve done, work- Hon. C. James: I move that the bill be referred to a Com- ing with municipalities on all kinds of solutions. But when mittee of the Whole House to be considered at the next sit- you have a crisis, you don’t give the choice about whether ting of the House afer today. you’re going to act on that crisis or not. Tis is a crisis, and we are going to act. Bill 45, Budget Measures Implementation (Speculation I am very proud to bring forward this piece of legislation. and Vacancy Tax) Act, 2018, read a second time and 5776 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 referred to a Committee of the Whole House for If, at any time, the conditions of the commitment are not consideration at the next sitting of the House afer today. being met, B.C. Assessment will reassess the property based on its future highest and best use potential, and the property Hon. M. Farnworth: I call second reading debate on Bill will be ineligible for reapplication. 42, the Assessment Amendment Act, 2018. Although there are 275 major industry plants in B.C., and the proposed changes are provincial in scope, we are only [L. Reid in the chair.] aware of one property, a sawmill in Port Moody, that would be afected for the 2019 taxation year. If the legislation is BILL 42 — ASSESSMENT passed, should any other class 4 property be subject to the AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 same circumstances, application could be made to maintain valuation based on classifcation. Hon. S. Robinson: I move that Bill 42, Assessment I would also like to note that my ministry is also under- Amendment Act, 2018, be now read a second time. taking a review of highest and best use evaluation impacts I’m pleased to be introducing this important piece of legis- on other property classes that are dealing with similar issues. lation. Te proposed legislation would authorize B.C. Tis is in addition to ongoing work on identifying property Assessment to value eligible major industry properties tax mitigation strategies for small businesses subject to according to their current industrial use, rather than their triple-net leases. highest and best use or future use potential, for a period of I hope that everyone here today joins me in support of Bill two years afer the year of application. Owners would have 42. the opportunity to apply for an extension, the duration of I now move second reading. which would be determined by the Lieutenant-Governor-in- Council. Deputy Speaker: Kamloops South. [Applause.] Eligible major industry properties include those whose value is directly impacted by the adoption of, or amendment Interjection. to, an ofcial community plan that provides for redevelop- ment potential. T. Stone: A smattering? I thought that was pretty rousing Now, the intent of the proposed legislation is to protect applause there. community-sustaining jobs that major industry properties provide to British Columbians. Major industry properties Interjection. include sawmills and mines, smelters, large product manu- facturers and other similar operations. T. Stone: Tere’s the smattering, yeah. So many of our communities in British Columbia came Te amendments being proposed in Bill 42, the Assess- about as a result of these facilities and now depend on the ment Amendment Act, are, as the minister has said, to allow jobs that they ofer. When these properties are subject to B.C. Assessment to value major industry properties, class 4, changes to ofcial community plans that identify them for based on their current industrial use rather than on the future redevelopment, they may face large increases in prop- potential future highest and best use as projected in an OCP. erty values and taxes based on future, highest and best use Te valuation would apply for the following two years of tax- potential. For some operations, this can be cost-prohibitive. ation, and an extension can be applied for beyond those two [4:45 p.m.] years, for an additional one or more years. To protect the jobs these major industry facilities A request for a revised assessment has to be made by the provide, we have taken action to ensure predictable, year- owner and occupier and can only be made once, whether to-year property tax levels on operating major industry for just the two years or the extension beyond the frst two properties prior to redevelopment. Without this action, years. A valuation would revert to highest and best use when some industrial property owners may choose to cease industrial operations cease. operations and demolish the facilities to avoid spikes in As the minister pointed out, class 4 properties include property taxes while they are moving through the local lumber, pulp mills, mines, smelters, shipbuilding and government redevelopment process. loading terminals, and changes would apply to the 2019 In return for the beneft evaluation based on classifcation taxation year. and a signifcant reduction in property taxes, we are asking Under the Assessment Act, property is classifed based on for a two-year commitment from the owners to maintain the current use and valued at its highest and best use market current use of the facilities with an equivalent or greater pro- value. I think we all can acknowledge and agree that this can duction level. We feel this is the best way to ensure jobs are lead to certain properties being classifed and taxed as com- protected prior to redevelopment. At the end of the two-year mercial, with a higher tax rate, but valued as high-density term, an eligible major industry property may make a one- residential, with a higher value. time application for extension at the discretion of the Lieu- We do support the intent of this bill to provide major tenant-Governor-in-Council. industrial operations with additional tools to address the Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5777 challenge that a very small number of these businesses are antly. Te Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the facing, which is the shouldering of an increasing share of the various chambers, the Greater Vancouver Board of Trade, tax burden as their property values increase at a signifcant BIAs, UDI and others have been asking for this. I do believe clip, due ofen to changes in an ofcial community plan, but that as policy-makers, we do have a responsibility to ensure a also, in some communities and some pockets of communit- competitive business climate to help our small business sec- ies, due to sheer market forces. tor prosper. We do believe that this bill is a small step to protect What about protecting other businesses that are facing major industrial operations in communities from being the prospect of having to lay of employees and/or close — potentially taxed out of business, which would result in the businesses that are not class 4 but surely face the same risk loss of some high-paying jobs. And we do need to recog- as major industry does? Of course, I’m referring to literally nize — every one of us in this House needs to recognize thousands of small businesses across British Columbia. — that industries are changing and that we should support It’s a bit ironic that last week, when this bill was frst intro- that. Tis bill is a signal to businesses that we understand duced, it was introduced during Small Business Week but the challenges of rising costs. makes no attempts to actually address the concerns that have I certainly want British Columbians to be able to continue been so consistently raised by small businesses on these cost to work where they do today and not sufer the loss of that issues — concerns such as those raised by Chocolate Mousse job due to the business they work for having to close because Kitchenware, a Vancouver–West End staple for more than 30 they can no longer aford to remain located where they are. years that saw their property taxes jump almost 93 percent [4:50 p.m.] in 2017. Tey’re likely to face an additional increase in their As the minister has confrmed, we do understand that this costs by another 25 percent this year. bill is initially intended to address one very acute situation in Even the Premier’s own chief of staf, Geof Meggs, was Port Moody. Indeed, it may end up being a useful tool for a concerned about this — so much so that he seconded a handful of other industrial operations. motion just last year, as a Vancouver councillor, to “address I want to acknowledge and thank the minister’s staf the impact of triple-net leases on property tax payments for for providing a bill briefng for myself and a number of small business tenants.” Coun. Geof Meggs also put forth a my colleagues the other day. We were advised that at this motion in 2016 to take action on soaring assessments, and moment, the total number of class 4 properties prov- now here we are. Instead of calling on a provincial govern- incewide is about 275. Te Ports Property Tax Act, which ment to do something, Geof Meggs is now the chief of staf was brought in by our former government a number of of the provincial government. He’s now in a position to efect years ago, addresses assessment issues that had arisen at positive change for all of these small businesses that he once 27 port properties across B.C. Tat leaves about 248 other upon a time purported to be such a champion for. industrial properties around British Columbia in this class We talk about the hollowing out of our cities due to 4 designation. So this is a tool that is very limited in scope small businesses having to lay of their employees and in dealing with class 4 major industrial operations as clas- close, due to out-of-control increases in assessed values of sifed in the Assessment Act. the land upon which they operate. So I ask: why are the I do want to say, however, that this bill does nothing to small businesses that really are the backbone of our eco- help small businesses, which account for 98 percent of all nomy…? We hear that from all sides of this House. Why businesses in British Columbia. Te question…. We’ll get has the NDP not chosen to include classes 5 and 6 as into this in a lot more detail in committee stage. I would an eligible property so that small businesses can also be say: what about all of those small businesses that are facing provided the kind of relief that is being provided in this the same challenges of rapidly rising property tax bills? Why bill for class 4 major industrial properties? did the government not embrace this opportunity to address [4:55 p.m.] the impact of this very similar situation, faced by small busi- B.C. is losing that competitive edge, and many small busi- nesses, that this bill is intending to address for major indus- nesses are worried about their future. Many have expressed trial operations? deep concern about the slew of taxes, new taxes, that this Is the government indeed considering extending these NDP government has hit them with, particularly the provisions to small businesses, who have been asking for employers health tax and increases to the carbon tax, both of years to be assessed at existing use instead of highest and best which impact their bottom line. use for decades? We understand that there may be a con- Te NDP government is forcing many small businesses to sultation and an engagement opportunity. We don’t know choose between laying of workers or raising prices for con- that for sure, but that may be something that’s coming. sumers. Te bottom line is that throughout Metro Vancou- What we do know is that there are certainly a lot of small ver in particular — although we see this in a handful of other businesses across British Columbia, particularly in the communities, like here in greater Victoria and Kelowna and Lower Mainland, that have been asking for some kind of elsewhere — land scarcity, combined with a high demand for relief when it comes to the property tax bills that they have homes, has driven land values to record levels. and that have ofen, in many cases, been going up signifc- In the past fve years, land assessments have been increas- 5778 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 ing at some 30 to 50 percent per year. Te majority of prop- by tenants who, under their lease obligations, are responsible erties in commercial nodes throughout the city of Vancouver for property taxes. Consequently, while the owner ultimately and in many suburbs are assessed at residential redevelop- benefts from the increased value, the tenant pays the prop- ment land value rather than their existing use. erty taxes or the holding costs while the property maintains Tere’s an issue of fundamental fairness inherent in that. its current use. Te local, independent small businesses in these locations Now, just last Monday, October 15, the CFIB, the Cana- have been lobbying for a long time for fair property tax treat- dian Federation of Independent Business, issued a research ment, given their assessed values are as much as two to three snapshot on exactly this issue, called B.C. Businesses Over- times their existing use of value. Tese small business prop- taxed Due to Antiquated Assessment System. erties are shouldering an increasing share of the tax burden, In their research snapshot, they highlight that in Vancou- as their values are increasing at a signifcantly faster rate to ver, municipal tax bills for commercial properties rose 43 highly built-out properties. percent between 2007 and 2017, three times faster than the Bill 42 is directed at class 4 major industrial properties, rate of infation. And 69 percent of small businesses sur- where, in the past year, a very small handful of properties veyed in April 2018 opposed the current assessment frame- have experienced this challenge for the very frst time. Bill work, with fully 78 percent supporting a move to split classi- 42 goes on to establish that an eligible class 4 property is one fcation assessment. where the municipality has adopted an ofcial community [5:00 p.m.] plan impacting the assessed value of those properties. Interestingly, during the last election campaign, the NDP As a point of comparison, the city of Vancouver passed the promised the CFIB that they would “support allowing muni- West End plan over two years ago, and assessed values under cipalities to average and phase in large land assessment the community retail properties throughout the West End changes to provide temporary tax relief to property owners.” plan area increased between 200 and 300 percent overnight. As an interesting reference as well, homeowners under the Notwithstanding the pleas from small business, nothing has Assessment Act already have today the same treatment avail- been done by the city of Vancouver or this NDP government able, as set out above for class 5 and class 6. Specifcally, sec- to rectify the situation, which persists. tion 19(8) of the act states as follows: It must also be pointed out that this situation is not always “Despite any requirement of this section respecting actual value, a result of the adoption or change of an ofcial community if the assessor receives, on or before January 31 in any year, from the plan. Fundamentally, market demand has caused land value owner and occupier of eligible residential property, a notice in the increases year afer year at excessive levels simply as a result form prescribed by the assessment authority that the owner and oc- cupier owned and occupied the eligible residential property as his or of market demand for residential redevelopment sites. her principal place of residence during the entire 10-year period end- Local independent businesses must pay the skyrocketing ing on the preceding October 31, the actual value of the eligible res- property taxes due to the market norm of triple-net leases, idential property, for the purpose of the assessment roll for the calen- which pass on the taxes to their tenants. dar year following that October 31, must be determined taking into consideration only the actual use of the land and improvements that At the end of the day, the problem is quite simple. Tese comprise the eligible residential property and not taking into consid- types of properties are simply absorbing too much property eration any other use to which the land or improvements could be tax, particularly in relation to the services that they receive. put.” Now, there are several potential solutions, one which is I fnd that very interesting, as do small businesses all referred to as the split classifcation assessment approach. across the province. Tis is an approach which, in efect, values properties Now, this bill is one step, but what’s really needed is an according to their classifcation, while still recognizing integrated long-term strategy for striking the best balance highest business use. possible for protecting jobs and small businesses, on the one Under the Assessment Act, property is classifed based hand, all the while encouraging accelerated housing supply on current use but valued at market value, which refects a where it’s needed in communities. property’s highest and best use. Properties with redevelop- With respect to housing, I think we all appreciate the pres- ment potential may have a current use that difers from their sure for the need for additional housing supply. We all sup- highest and best use. port addressing the need for densifcation and new housing For example, many properties have a current use of low- stock. I think we can all acknowledge that some communit- density commercial or light industrial, but their highest and ies don’t have much available land lef for housing, so this best use, if they were to be developed, is mixed residential- ofen triggers updates to ofcial community plans that then commercial. Tis becomes an immediate taxation issue for cause the issue that this bill is trying to address. these properties, as they are assessed at the highest and best Te fact that market demand and/or changes to ofcial use at values multiple times those of the current business community plans can trigger such staggering increases in use, but classifed in their current use with the signifcantly property tax bills for industrial operations, light industrial higher property tax rates for class 5, light industry, or class 6, businesses and commercial or small businesses is one thing. business and other, compared to class 1, residential. But the fact that this situation is made even worse by how A further challenge is that the property may be occupied Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5779 long it takes, on average, for new housing stock to be zoned lot less supply. DCCs typically are assessed by local govern- and approved — particularly in the Lower Mainland — adds ments to cover costs associated with growth, such as roads, signifcant insult to injury and does nothing to drive addi- water and sewer networks. Tey can ofen include com- tional housing supply, which is the number one most suc- munity amenity contributions, public art fees, permits, cessful way to address the housing afordability challenge. inspection fees, and so forth. Developers are forced to wait years and years for zoning In a recent study done by the Howe Institute called Te and approvals. Tere are approximately 120,000 units of pro- High Cost of Barriers to Building New Housing in Canadian posed housing in Metro Vancouver that are languishing in Municipalities, the Howe Institute comes to the following development departments of various local governments. conclusions. Excessive regulations and costs are choking the Tey can take fve, seven, ten years to get a project approved, supply of new real estate in Metro Vancouver. Tey go on during which time land values continue to escalate dramat- further to acknowledge or highlight that there’s a huge gap ically, which only serves to increase the carrying cost for between the cost of building new housing and its market whomever has the vision and the plan to build housing on price, with extra costs on new housing ranging from an the land in question. average of $229,000, in the eight most restrictive cities, to Guess who ends up paying the price for these escalating $600,000 of such extra costs in Vancouver. Why is that? Well, land values and related carrying costs? Te homeowner. It there are tight supply of land, strict zoning regulations, long gets passed on to the homeowner, and that doesn’t address zoning time frames and a heck of a lot of development cost the afordability challenge at all. charges and related fees. Again, the ofcial opposition believes that the NDP gov- UDI in Vancouver estimates that while in 2008 the aver- ernment has missed another opportunity here to focus on age 900-square-foot unit had $43,000 per unit of local devel- increasing housing supply. In fact, every single housing initi- opment cost charges, fees and other charges built into the ative of this government has actually had the opposite efect cost, today that number is now $340,000, on average, per and has actually contributed to a decrease in housing starts. unit in Metro Vancouver. While the UDI would prefer that Te NDP’s taxes, like the phony speculation tax and other there be no TransLink DCC at all, they did ask for a $20 mil- policy actions of government to date, are serving only to lion annual cap, and their advice was not taken. slow housing construction, devastate the housing industry I would make this one fnal comment about DCCs. I have and result in lost jobs. never seen or met a DCC that goes down in time, and I’ve Te NDP’s focus to date has been entirely on the demand never met one that goes away over time. Tey always tend to side of the equation, mostly through targeted taxes and new go up, representing added cost on that unit of construction. fees added to the costs of housing — like the speculation tax, At the end of the day, the NDP is only adding taxes and new which we frmly believe has nothing to do with actual spec- costs onto housing, which is not going to drive afordability. ulation. Rather, it attacks British Columbians. Te majority You can’t tax your way to afordability. We are seeing a dra- of people who are paying the speculation tax will be British matic plunge in housing starts across British Columbia — 43 Columbians. percent across the entire province, with another 20 percent Housing construction is collapsing across British expected in the forthcoming fscal year. Columbia. Tis is dramatically reducing supply, but it’s also According to the Canadian Home Builders Association, throwing a lot of British Columbians out of work — car- “Contracts continue to be cancelled across the province…. penters, drywallers, painters and many others who will soon Each contract makes a diference for local businesses and be out of paycheques. Tese cancelled projects will do noth- their workers.” So we really need to focus on supply. We’re ing to address afordability. going to continue to encourage this government and plead Or like the NDP’s changes to the maximum allowable rent with this government to take at least one of their eyes of the increase, where they have moved from the previous 2 per- demand side of the equation here — in terms of every initi- cent plus CPI to only CPI. Results of this decision? Tis has ative being focused on demand — and to focus on supply. resulted in less construction of market rental supply across Let’s focus on requiring densifcation along transit lines. British Columbia. Let’s focus on tying transit investments to density. Let’s focus [5:05 p.m.] on not just encouraging but on requiring local governments Or the NDP government’s decision last year to impose to approve zoning and other related building permits in a new TransLink development cost charges. Tis gives the much more compressed time frame so that we can get more authority to TransLink to set and levy DCCs on new con- of this supply onto the market as soon as possible. struction in Metro Vancouver to, in part, fund the local por- With that, I can say that we in the ofcial opposition will tion of the mayors’ ten-year TransLink plan. support this bill insofar as the very, very narrow scope that is While we support transit investments in Metro Vancou- provided for in this bill, but it does fall far short on provid- ver, we do have a problem with these costs being down- ing the needed relief to small businesses. It represents anoth- loaded onto homeowners, and we do have a problem with er lost opportunity for this government to do anything that additional costs being heaped onto the costs of actual con- increases housing supply in British Columbia. It represents struction in this province, which is resulting in a heck of a 5780 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 yet another fail for this government when it comes to hous- ing these employers, to business competitiveness in the cap- ing afordability. ital region and British Columbia. [5:10 p.m.] In this legislation, we see an exemption in certain circum- stances for major employers. Te government scrambles to A. Olsen: I’m pleased to rise today and speak to Bill 42, allow one type of industry exemption while B.C. Assessment the Assessment Amendment Act. Tis bill is designed to stop and other ministries outright dismiss others. major industrial sites from facing unreasonable assessment I stood in this House last week and asked the Minister of increases to their tax bill when the local government changes Finance about business competitiveness in respect to anoth- its ofcial community plan and designates a Property for a er measure undertaken by this government. I raised the situ- diferent use in the future. ation of another major important employer in this region. Properties are assessed for their highest and best use. Tey’re an important business in the capital region. Tey Without this amendment, the new designation may result hire and train youth in our community, and ofentimes it’s in an industrial operator operating under the previous use. their frst job. Tey could face an enormous increase in their taxes based Tis summer their CEO contacted me. He was dis- on the change in the assessed value. Tey might fnd it more tressed, and rightfully so, that their 2018 annual rent from economical, for instance, to shut down their operations, the provincial government increased 42 percent over 2017. eliminating a number of jobs and the important municipal Let me state that again: 42 percent increase one year over tax base at the same time. Te bill before us is designed to another. Tey were not given any notifcation, from my prevent that from happening. understanding. I support the government taking an active interest in When they asked why, they were told that this was a result ensuring that an industry or a major employer is not forced of the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource to shut down due to a bureaucratic technicality. But as a Operations applying fees that were more in alignment with former municipal councillor, I’m aware of the ofcial com- the assessed value of the property and the current rental munity planning process and the great care that locally elec- market. Tis increase came completely out of the blue with ted ofcials need to employ when planning for the future. no early notifcation and is drastically diferent than the pre- Te decisions that they make have critical impacts on the viously assessed valuation. current operation of their community. But they also have Tese two examples highlight one more situation where dramatic impacts on the valuations of the land, both now government policies are making it hard for major employers and in the future. Frankly, I have difculty when this bill is to do business. So when I see this bill in front of me today, placed in the larger context. I’m conficted. On one hand, I fully support it. I understand Tis year I’ve heard from several businesses in Saanich why it comes forward, and it will have my support. North and the Islands about unfairness and how they’ve [5:15 p.m.] been heavily impacted by B.C. Assessment and other gov- But it is important that this government takes a look at the ernment agencies and how it’s having an efect on their com- whole package of assessment issues and needs, as was poin- petitiveness and their bottom line. Take, for example, the ted out by the member who spoke previous to me. I believe major employers, some of the biggest in the capital region, when I spoke to the minister on this, she agreed. that provide life-sustaining jobs for our constituents, quality- I look forward to looking at this in a much more compre- of-life-sustaining taxpayers for the municipal governments hensive way, as my history goes back to the municipal coun- that we represent — the employers that are located on the cil. I remember…. In fact, a gentleman named Tony would Victoria Airport Authority land. stand up every year at assessment time in our municipal In January of this year, their overall assessment had council chambers. He’d challenge his assessment every single jumped 21 percent. Teir land value increased by 10 percent year. He’s a known commodity in the assessment ofce. and their building value by 40 percent. Tese businesses have I think it’s important that we take a look at the whole subleases with the Victoria Airport Authority, and under the package of this, and I think that it’s important that the gov- Assessment Act, they are assessed as the owner of the land. ernment does the work necessary. While I’m going to sup- Tis valuation has a signifcant impact on the actual amount port this bill, I strongly support the government taking of property tax these companies pay to the municipality and much deeper action when it comes to B.C. Assessment. to the province. Yet when my staf brought this concern forward to B.C. P. Milobar: For 15 years, every day I had to deal with Assessment, their explanation was that they needed to this issue as a mayor and as a city councillor. Now, afer 16 review all airport lands in British Columbia and that there months, we’re fnally seeing something come forward, but it’s was a big discrepancy on how that land was being valued incomplete. Tat’s really my problem with Bill 42. between diferent airports. I accept that, but I have a difcult I don’t have a problem with the concept about Bill 42. time accepting that nothing can be done to lessen the impact I think it’s been well established over the years that when on these businesses. I have a difcult time believing that you look at class 4, class 5 and class 6, there’s been an more care could not be taken to the potential impact of los- ongoing concern within municipalities. However, Bill Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5781

42…. I think we’ve heard from previous speakers, and I square footage. Tey’re closing not because of a lack of agree with that, that no one wants to see the loss of a few customers. Tey’re closing because of property taxation hundred jobs, especially in a smaller community. I think driving their cost structure such that they cannot remain everyone can get on board and support the concept and remotely competitive. the drive behind Bill 42. But to bring in a piece of legisla- [5:20 p.m.] tion that, essentially, takes care of one or, maybe, two sites What happens is that site sits empty. Tat puts even more around the whole province does not seem the proper way pressure on trying to get the redevelopment happening, that we should be addressing this. which, in theory, is a good thing, because you see more We should be looking at class 4 as a whole rate class. In housing come into the neighbourhood. But what happens Kamloops’s case, we’ve spent years trying to drive down the under this current structure of assessed values and taxation mill rate in class 4 to protect those jobs, not just within Kam- values, as a result, is that the commercial space that loops but within the area. With our pulp mill, there are about undoubtedly will get created underneath it, even though it’s 20 area sawmills that rely on our pulp mill to be a way for brand-new, will actually be rented for even more per square them to get rid of their chips. So as the pulp mill in Kam- foot and see its taxes even higher. loops goes, so do 20 area sawmills, from as far away as Prin- Tose maybe 50, 60 people living above it are still not ceton and up into the Cariboo and up the North Tompson, enough of a boost in business to see those spaces flled in. that rely on that pulp mill. Tey sit empty for long stretches of time, and they don’t Within the tax base of the city of Kamloops, there’s been provide the amenity and the neighbourhood feel that they a very concerted efort to try to address the class 4 taxation. were originally intended to as street-front-level retail. Ten But there are only so many tools local governments have that leads to added pressure to the strip mall phenomenon when you’re trying to address, because there’s still only that and the suburban mall phenomenon, where you see more one pocket of money. If you need, in Kamloops’s case, $100 and more pressure of the big-box retailers and the interna- million of taxation to operate a city, you still need to collect tional retailers coming in. that other money from somewhere else once you’ve given Although I fundamentally don’t oppose, I believe people that relief in class 4. should have freedom of choice. Tey should also have that With Bill 42, the problem is you’re pushing a balloon with- freedom of choice based on a level of fairness when it comes in any respective city. Bill 42 may help a specifc set of cir- to taxation. What happens is, though, the retail pushes a little cumstances around one particular rate class of that particu- bit further out of the core, a little bit further out of the core. lar site of what’s happening with its assessment, but Bill 42 Well, how am I going to get from the core to the retail? I’m doesn’t help some communities that have the reverse prob- going to have to get into my vehicle and clog up the road, or lem happening with some of their heavy industrial or light I’m going to have to try to take some nonexistent transit. industrial or commercial spaces. Tat is the problem right there, which starts to drive more When you look at a city like a Vancouver, and you con- and more sprawl, more and more areas being developed sider the ramifcations and the overlaying problems that start further out from the core areas. Ten what inevitably hap- to happen when you see small, local retailers start to have pens…. People say: “Well, there’s a mall right there. Maybe trouble strictly because of their property tax bill — based on we should try to get a little bit of extra housing into this area.” highest and best use of the piece of property they might have So an area that previously might not have seen housing for on a Robson Street or on a South Granville or those areas — another 15 or 20 years suddenly springs up. it starts to really dig in to the fabric of what made that par- I think of Richmond, what we’ve seen with Richmond. ticular area or that particular community so great. Tere was a new mall just built, as you’re heading in towards You think along Main Street, out towards Nat Bailey or the Minoru Arena, and all of a sudden there was about four any of those areas, the problem that starts to happen…. It blocks’ worth of townhouses built all around that area that runs totally counter to everything this government has said used to just be a feld. Boom. You have instant growth and they stand for. I liken it, almost, to one of my favourite books instant sprawl happening, albeit within their OCPs. reading to my kids when they were growing up, If You Give Tese communities are trying to do and manage the best a Mouse a Cookie. It’s kind of the same situation, because they can. No one wants to say no to a potential development what’s going to happen is…. We see it playing out all across that might come into their community because of what that cities that have this demand. Kelowna has some situations could mean to your community in terms of jobs and growth where this happens. And it’s certainly in Vancouver, areas of for that particular community. But it’s coming at the expense Surrey and other areas — where if we don’t start trying to of another community. address what’s happening on the commercial level with those If we’re going to look at Bill 42…. I really wish the gov- small businesses…. Again, back to the If You Give a Mouse a ernment had taken the time to try to bring in the same types Cookie…. of measures and controls that we see in Bill 42, in terms of You have the small independent retailer close, be it a allowing a bit of local autonomy, allowing it to be connec- clothing store or a cofee shop or anything like that. Well, ted to an ofcial community plan, allowing the local gov- the reality is that no one else can aford to go into that ernments to have a bit more fexibility into their mill rate 5782 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 structure so they actually could efect some change intern- sion. Tey do great work. Tey’re a great community- ally within their own mill rate structure for what works for minded company. their community, not a one-of piece for one piece of indus- Tey’re classifed as light industrial. Given that they have trial land in one city. railway spurs, that they have tailings ponds and that they’re Tat’s not what legislation in this House should be dealing right next to the highway, they’re light industrial. Te pulp with. Tis House should be dealing with legislation that can mill, driving by, would look the exact same to the average actually be used and reasonably actioned by the vast major- person, yet they’re considered heavy industrial. ity of municipalities within the province, and that’s not what Tere needs to be a recognition that the world has this is. Tis is a piece of legislation tailor-made to try to deal changed. I was hoping that Bill 42 would have actually seen with one situation. some of that come into play, but that’s not what we’re seeing In terms of why that is problematic and why we need to in this bill. So it’ll be interesting, as we get into committee have those other levers in place for people in other com- stage, to start trying to fnd out, through some questions, munities…. As I say, depending on what your mill rate mix where the process and the mindset really was with this. It’s is, there are some communities…. Kelowna is a good that inherent need for communities to be able to have a little example. Tey only have the one real industrial site, in class bit more control over their own mill rates, a little more fex- 4, to speak of. It’s the sawmill right downtown. It’s right next ibility over their mill rates. to the Grand hotel, right on the lake, a beautiful chunk of We have a light industrial, and we have a heavy industrial. property. We don’t have a large commercial and a small commercial, Tey don’t rely as heavily on industrial taxation as Ques- though. We have just commercial. So the small shoe store nel would. Quesnel relies very heavily on industrial taxation. downtown is paying more per square foot in almost, I would Kamloops is a bit in the mix. Prince George relies reasonably bet, any city in this province. A downtown shoe store is heavily on heavy taxation as well. probably paying more per square foot for that shoe store It really depends, from town to town, what mill rate struc- than a large satellite store would be paying per square foot ture you see. In the case of Prince George, they’re at about in taxation simply because of the land values and the way $42 per $1,000 for a mill rate when it comes to class 4 indus- the assessment works. Municipalities do not have any of that trial. In Kamloops’s case, we’re at $73 per $1,000. We’re try- fexibility to try to move things around and try to stay within ing to bring that down, but it makes it very hard when you’re that spending bubble — not be overly punitive to homeown- trying to do that without other levers and ways that you can ers, at the same time, but just try to meld the three together address the diferentials within the rate classes. so that there is a bit more synchronicity with how all these When you look at a light industrial mill rate or you look at rate classes work. a business mill rate…. Fortunately, in Kamloops, that same As I said, some communities have great values in one rate report that was referenced earlier by the member for Kam- class and not in others. Ten what you’ll see are wild swings loops–South Tompson…. We in Kamloops were seen to be where if you have…. Typically what happens in a municipal- the front-runner over the last decade across the province for ity is you have large growth that happens within the residen- trying to make these shifs happen. Tey can happen, but tial sector. It will slow down for a year or two, and your com- they are very difcult. Tey’re very difcult to do from term mercial sector will pick up because of the new people and to term, from one council to the next, and you need to have supply and demand of a little more retail space. So you’ll see that fexibility built in. these wild swings in assessed values. Mill rates will plummet [5:25 p.m.] or raise, and one rate class still seems to bear the brunt. Since the province was indicating a willingness to go in…. As much as Bill 42 is a step in the right direction, it is When I frst heard that the Assessment Act was being looked simply that. I don’t see anything in there that would make at here, with Bill 42, when it was frst being introduced, I was it so unbearable as to not support it. But I certainly see lots quite hopeful that meant there was going to be that fexibility in there to say it’s a massive disappointment, I guess, that it across the rate classes for municipalities to still do what was was so shortsighted and so refned in its scope that it really right for them at a local level. Unfortunately, that’s not what doesn’t address any large-scale issues or problems when I this bill is at all. Tis bill is nothing but trying to address one think most municipalities are looking for a way for the pro- specifc site, maybe two, in the whole province. Tat’s about 1 vincial government to help them. percent — actually less than 1 percent — of the overall class Te other part of this is…. You know, municipal councils 4 locations within the province of British Columbia. do come and go, and they change. Tat’s why it’s important We’re not likely to see any more true class 4 developed in that we make sure that there’s always that bit of communica- British Columbia. When you consider that it’s for the type tion, that although…. What one council said they would like of processing and remanufacturing that it’s talking about, it’s to see happen doesn’t necessarily mean the next council will very unlikely. But in Kamloops’s case, again, when you drive want to see that happen. by on the highway, you see an industrial plant that is creating ball bearings for crushing in the copper industry. Tey’re a [R. Chouhan in the chair.] major employer in Kamloops. Tey’ve done a major expan- Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5783

On Friday, we had nothing but full steam ahead from really seeing that it is possible — changing the act itself — so the mayor of Vancouver and the mayor of Surrey — that that businesses can be assessed in a fairer way so that the tax LRT was full steam ahead in Surrey. Tat was Friday. By impact is not so great as to drive them out of business. Sunday or Monday, we have, “We don’t want LRT. We want We will need to do more because clearly, in my com- SkyTrain,” from both of the same mayors of Surrey and Van- munity, what we’ve seen along Robson Street…. I’ve raised couver. So in the space of three days, afer an election, we this in question period. I’ve met with Finance Ministers, loc- went from full out one way to another. Tat can happen on al government ministers. On and on it went when I was in tax policy changes as well. opposition with the B.C. Liberals. Tey always said: “Well I recognize that we need to build into this that muni- no. It’s the city. Te city should fx it.” Ten the city would cipalities get to have that autonomy, that freedom to try to say: “No, it’s the province that should fx it.” set their own course with how they want to see taxation, You had the provincial government, supposedly business- but also being able to recognize that what may be a heavy friendly, blaming it on the local government, the local gov- industry problem in one community is not necessarily the ernment blaming it on the provincial government, and noth- problem for the next community that doesn’t necessarily ing happening. Meanwhile, businesses were going out of have heavy industry. Tat doesn’t mean that in the commer- business or facing, in some cases, tax increases of hundreds cial rate class, they don’t have the same types of problems of thousands of dollars. with very signifcant job creators in their community. I think of a couple of small businesses in my community, [5:30 p.m.] on Robson Street, where their issue has been that they rent Why are they not being treated the same? If there’s a will- the place. Tey don’t own the land. Te city has rezoned ingness to look at one rate class, the government should be the area so that you can have 20 storeys of density, of con- willing to look at all rate classes and let communities decide dominium development — that kind of thing. Te land value where their job generators are, where their movement of shoots through the roof. Tese folks have signed triple-net economic well-being is, moving forward, and make sure that leases with their property owner, so they are now having to they know they have that fexibility to treat their commer- pay all of the property taxes on that land even though they cial rate class no diferently than an industrial rate class if see none of that future beneft of upzoning, of land sales, of that’s actually where the economic growth and the jobs are in redevelopment, and so forth. their community — and recognizing that maybe those jobs So you’ve got these small businesses, ofen two proprietors in those sectors need a temporary relief, like Bill 42 would and maybe ten staf if you’re lucky. Tey poured their heart provide, for owners. and souls into it, building it for many years. I remember With that, I thank you for the time. I look forward to ques- going to the Finance Minister last year, when we were not tions in committee stage. Certainly, Bill 42 is a very tiny step government yet, asking: could we get this fxed? Can we get in the right direction, but very, very disappointing that it’s action on this? Again, it was: “It’s very complicated. I don’t that. It seems to have totally closed the door to any other think we can do this. We’re doing more studies.” creativity that could have happened. I guess it’s just symp- For years, I talked to folks in the business improvement tomatic of what we’ve been seeing in some of the legislation association world and local business taxation experts. Tey lately, in terms of lack of creativity and lack of trying to move would tell me that they’ve been fed line afer line from the things forward in a productive and constructive manner. provincial government about how there was never an ability to do this, how the former Finance Minister, the former S. Chandra Herbert: It gives me pleasure to speak today Small Business Minister, always said: “Yes, it’s a problem, on Bill 42, the Assessment Amendment Act. I never thought but let’s do another study.” Tere was study afer study lead- I would say those words, because assessment amendments ing nowhere and the provincial and municipal governments and such things don’t get most people excited. But they throwing up their hands — “Oh well, there’s nothing we can should, because they really do impact how our communities do” — while people were losing their businesses. work and whether or not small businesses can succeed. What does Bill 42 do? Tis addresses class 4 properties, I want to reference my colleague from Kamloops across so major industrial. It doesn’t yet address class 5 and class the way. He mentioned that for something like 15½ years he 6, which are the smaller businesses that I refer to in my had been working on these issues locally to try and make it community. better for small businesses, to try and get the provincial gov- [5:35 p.m.] ernment to come to the table. I think that ever since I was I hope that in time, we can get there, because showing frst elected MLA, ten years ago, I’ve been trying to get the that we can do something, I think, opens the door to doing provincial government to realize this is a problem. a whole lot more, as opposed to the previous argument, Unfortunately, as the phrase goes, for 16 years, we got next which was: “We can do nothing. Let’s blame it on the local to nothing of action in terms of this issue from the previous government.” government. Now, in 16 months, we’ve had the frst action to Now, I think local governments do play a really important get this addressed. Has it gone far enough? Does it address role in ensuring, of course, the success of small businesses in the issues in their entirety? No, but it’s the frst time we’re cases like this, in terms of how they do zoning, where they do 5784 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 zoning and the need for them to be involved — to do things had this challenge around a few of their Olympic sites. Te like average out property taxes over ten years, for example, land value shot up so much. Te proposal at the time was: instead of two or three, maybe fve. Let’s consider that. In “Well, let’s fnd a way to even that out over the entire prop- some of these cases, it could really help. erty classifcations.” I think that provincially there are a couple of other areas You could do that on Robson Street, but I know my col- that we do need to look at. I know some may have concerns leagues in Vancouver-Fairview or Vancouver–Point Grey about this, so I’m speaking on my own behalf, but I’ve heard might say: “Well, wait a second. Why are you shifing the from a number of small businesses who have really ques- property tax burden of your local businesses onto mine? tioned the whole concept of triple-net leases. We’re also facing these large property tax increases.” In the case I refer to, the small business I was speaking So it’s not easy, and I do understand it when the ministry with, the property owner is making tens of millions of dol- says it’s difcult to solve the situation of class 5 and class lars through the fact that their land was upzoned. Mean- 6. I understand it. Tere are political challenges, and there while, this business has signed a triple-net lease, so they had are the provincial-municipal issues. But you actually have to to pay the property taxes, the utilities and then the rent. Well, want to solve it, and I’m not convinced that the provincial the property taxes are now way outside of the norm, com- government previously wanted to address this issue or that pletely outside of their ability to pay, way more than they’re they were interested in solving it. It was more of, “Tis is a actually paying in rent, yet they have no choice but to keep Robson Street issue” until it became: “Tis is a Robson Street paying because they’ve got a lease. and Main Street and Broadway issue.” Te owner is making out as the savviest fnancial investor Slowly, it then got out to Burnaby and then to Surrey, ever simply because he owned a patch of dirt, and he rented and now it’s starting to impact communities all across B.C. it out to these folks and signed over a triple-net lease to What started as a very localized issue that they didn’t want to them. Yes, he chose a good location for the patch of dirt — address, when I raised it, is now a provincial issue. I’m hop- Robson Street. But when he bought it and when this busi- ing, based on conversations I’ve had with the minister, that ness was there, it wasn’t zoned for massive residential. It was this is an issue that will be addressed. It will take some time, a three-storey building. but this bill is a start. Just up the street, there’s a…. I think it’s about an eight- Now, there’s a great organization that I’ve worked with and to ten-storey building, a medical-dental complex. I talked to had the beneft of working with on and of over the years, the owner of that building. He said his property taxes have of course — my local Robson Street business improvement shot through the roof because of the upzoning on his land. association, in the West End — and Downtown Vancouver Now, ten storeys, eight storeys — he’s happy with what he’s Business Improvement Association. got. He said that he doesn’t want to increase the rents for the [5:40 p.m.] renters in his building. He likes the mix of tenants he’s got. Tey’re part of a coalition of 22 business improvement He doesn’t want to redevelop. He enjoys running his busi- associations in Vancouver, what they call the Vancouver BIA ness as he does. But because the property taxes have shot partnership. Tey copied me on a letter that they wrote to the so far up, he felt he had no ability not to massively increase Minister of Municipal Afairs and Housing. Really, they said: rents on new tenants and a number of his people he said he “Bill 42 proposes to assess class 4 properties based on cur- knew were planning on leaving. So you end up either with rent industrial use rather than their future and highest, best empty stores or stores people can’t aford because they’re use, an important step in the right direction in the valuation selling such high-end merchandise in order to pay the insane process. We applaud the province for its prompt response to property taxes or a triple-net lease. the issues facing class 4 properties and its commitment to Some have said to me very strongly: “Get rid of the triple- addressing them with the proposed legislation amendment. net lease. Te property tax should be paid by the person It is our only request that the same consideration be given to who owns it.” Other people say: “Well, they’ll just pass it on class 5 and 6 properties. Te health and vitality of our neigh- through the rent that they charge to the people.” But at least bourhoods is dependent upon it.” that’s something that you can plan for, generally, in terms of I think it’s true. Tey absolutely encapsulate it. Tey know what negotiations you do with your landlord. Te property that this is important for the health of our communities and tax is outside of the landlord’s control, yet they win the bene- for why we love our communities. I’m hopeful that if we can ft if the land value shoots up so much. So that’s another area. get support from all across the House, if we can get the sup- Now, adding class 5 and class 6 to giving the possibility port of our new council and our new mayor in Vancouver, that local governments could fnd ways to shif how they we can start to fnally address this problem. For too long, do taxation on these properties…. It’s challenging, because small businesses in our community have been made to pick it can be winner and loser. So people don’t want to say, up the slack for inaction, for people ignoring them, for just for example, as I proposed at one point: “Well, let’s look basically saying: “Well, that sucks. Too bad you’re in a great at areas that are facing these massive pressures in Van- area that people want to be in. You should just pay the cost.” couver. Let’s fnd a way that they could do….” I think the Not understanding, of course, that the cost for…. example was Richmond where, around the Olympics, they Almost any business — aside from, well, I can’t even Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5785 think of that kind of business — would be crushed if they tional tools with an assessment are an opportunity for all had the kind of property tax increase that businesses in my members of this House. community have faced lately because of the lack of action [5:45 p.m.] of previous governments and because of rezoning. It has Of course, we have talked at length and will continue to put that huge pressure to redevelop — not to the beneft of discuss the challenges that we’ve had with 2017 and 2018 local businesses. around the wildfres. While that drives signifcant changes Unfortunately, in a few of the cases, it’s luxury condos that in our communities, I do believe that out of change, ofen are coming in, so not largely to the beneft of constituents in opportunities can arise. I’m optimistic, and I always work my own community, who are seeing the impact of the loss of towards fnding solutions to challenges that we face in our their local business because of this upcoming, so-called lux- communities. I am confdent with the people that I have ury condo which could replace it — with, I might add, retail the privilege to work with on the ground every day that the underneath. But the cost of that retail space, because of that Cariboo will fnd that they’re resilient and that we will fnd property tax and because of how new it is, can be pretty pro- opportunities as we transition our forest economy. hibitive for some of the smaller businesses. When I look at the transitioning nature of our forest Many in my constituency are concerned that we’ll lose economy, I am not suggesting for a moment that at any the small, idiosyncratic, interesting businesses like Chocol- point will we see…. We will defnitely see a change in the ate Mousse, a great kitchenware supply store, and others, forest economy, but for people in the industry, we will look to be replaced only by chain stores, which could make the at it as a sunrise opportunity as opposed to a sunset. While neighbourhood feel like any city, anywhere, at any time. You we recognize that we’ve got challenges around fbre, and don’t know. While I’m walking down Robson Street, I might we’ve got challenges around beetle epidemics…. We’ve got as well be in Hamburg, Germany, or California or New York challenges around so many aspects of the forest economy, or anywhere where they have major international chain busi- what it is really driving us to do is to take a really close nesses. So that is their concern. I’ll keep pushing. look at how we can better look at fbre utilization. How, as We’ve had more action, as I say, in support of local busi- a community, can we look at the changing nature of our nesses with this challenge of assessments and more discus- forest economy and look at how that may drive for change sion and genuine interest in the last 16 months than, I would in our communities? argue, we’ve had for the last 16 years, in terms of assessment I know that we are going through an ofcial community issues. I’m hopeful that, and I know that the minister under- plan currently in Quesnel. Some of the things that we are stands it, with further work and continued pressure and con- looking at are the driving nature of technology, how industry tinued ideas, we can get there with things like split assess- has changed — technology opportunities in our communit- ments, land averaging — those kinds of ideas — and, poten- ies and how that may refect and change — and providing tially, challenges of triple-net leases, amongst other solu- tools within the Assessment Amendment Act and providing tions, down the road. tools for industry assessment to reconcile the vision that I thank the minister for bringing this legislation and for municipalities have for their ofcial community plans and showing that change is possible on this fle. Let’s keep going. where they see potential for their communities to reach to and to go to without penalizing industries that are in the C. Oakes: It is a rarity, actually, in this House that we hear process of change. In that process of increased fbre utiliza- members from all three parties that stand in support of a bill tion, whether we’re looking at value-added or what have you, and stand in support of some opportunities that…. We feel, I think that this tool is a step in supporting communities in as legislators, that it’s never too late for us, as bills are put for- transition. ward, to make changes that we think will help improve and Having sat on council, as so many of us in this House have to refect what we are hearing out in our communities. Today had the privilege of doing, I certainly understand and con- what we’ve heard refected from all of the speakers that have cur with the members that have spoken prior about how we come forward…. I think that there’s a real opportunity for need to look at assessment, specifcally around class 5 and 6, us to address class 5 and 6 and look at how we can support small business and light industrial — how there are oppor- small businesses. tunities. If the tools that we are talking about within this Last week we just celebrated Small Business Week. I know amendment act could be applied, it would really beneft and that we stand, all of us, together in this House in support provide opportunities across the board for small businesses. of our fantastic small businesses that drive our economies I am confdent…. Again, I mentioned I’m optimistic. I throughout the province. But going back to….I am in sup- was optimistic when I heard, last week, the Minister of Jobs, port of the Assessment Amendment Act 2018 to provide Trade and Technology say: “We care about small businesses major industrial operations additional tools to address the and the people who own them, and we are committed to challenges of a very small number of businesses that are ensuring that they are viable and successful.” I know that he facing changes in their ofcial community plans. is committed to that, as all members of this House are. Tat’s I think my area is a very interesting snapshot of how addi- why I believe that there is an opportunity within this bill to look at how we can improve upon this bill. We can go out, 5786 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 and we can look at how the changes and the tools that we are ties, as they are assessed at highest best use at values mul- applying for one specifc sector, for class 4…. How can we tiple times those of their current business use, but classifed potentially look at those tools now also being applied to class in their current use with the signifcantly higher property tax 5 and 6 and create an even better bill that we can all be proud rate for class 5, light industry, and class 6, business and other, of here in this Legislature? compared to class 1, as residential. I think that there is a tremendous opportunity. Te mem- A further challenge is that property may be occupied by ber from Vancouver east end talked about the solution that tenants who, under their lease obligations, are responsible was being put forward by the CFIB around split classifca- for property taxes. Consequently, while the owners ulti- tion. I would like to take a moment, if I may, just to read mately beneft from the increased value, the tenant, as the an opportunity that they have presented. I know that many member earlier stated, pays the property taxes or holding members of this House have had the opportunity to speak costs while the property maintains in current use. with business organizations and groups such as our business I think that there have been some very thoughtful dis- improvement areas — the CFIB, the B.C. Chamber of Com- cussions that have happened on how to improve upon this merce — but currently, of course, we know that a property is bill. I think that there are some solutions, whether you look assessed based on its highest and best use. at a split classifcation assessment approach and addressing [5:50 p.m.] class 5 and 6 that will improve upon this bill and will refect What that means is if a large mixed-use, multi-storey the importance that all of us put on our small businesses building — businesses on the frst foor with residential on in our communities, our mom-and-pop stores, the men and the units above — is built next to a single-storey business women who support our soccer teams, who support the property, B.C. Assessment will assess that single-storey vitality of our communities, who always step up every single building on the potential of the lot, not the actual building day and make sure that whatever their community needs, that exists. To put that in commonsense language, it’s the they are there front and centre. mom-and-pop grocery store that’s been on your corner for Finally, as job creators and economic generators, as aford- 40 years and that you’ve relied on. Tey’ve watched your kids ability champions, because they’re the ones that are out there grow up. Tey know you by name. You’ve developed that hiring that young person for their frst job or hiring that relationship. Next door to them, you have a multi-mixed- senior to make sure that they have an opportunity to parti- use unit that goes up, and that mom-and-pop store then cipate in our economy. becomes taxed at the highest and best use. It gets compared Tools are important for municipalities, and it is my hope to the business and the residential multi-use complex that is that with the Assessment Amendment Act, 2018, there’s an next to them. opportunity to improve it, as we’ve heard from all members Tat puts incredible pressure on these mom-and-pop of the House today. operators that really are the hearts of our communities, and we cannot lose them and what they provide to our com- Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the minister munities. to close the debate. Again, to the minister, having the opportunity to improve upon this bill and to provide these tools to other classifca- Hon. S. Robinson: I certainly appreciate hearing from tions I think would be critically important. Te recommend- members from all sides of the House, and it’s certainly a ation that was put forward by CFIB which is referred to pleasure to hear that there is support for this bill going for- as the split classifcation assessment approach talks about, ward. Tat’s very good to hear. in efect, valuing properties according to their classifcation [5:55 p.m.] while still recognizing their highest business use. Under the I do want to just provide a few comments in response to Assessment Act, property is classifed based on current use what I heard. We certainly heard from the member from but valued at market value, which refects a property’s Kamloops, who talked a bit about how small businesses have highest and best use. been asking for some of this work for years. Well, they had Te challenges that we have with properties with redevel- years — they had 16 years, in fact — to listen to the voice of opment potential may have a current use that difers from small business and to take action. So I’m very proud of the their highest and best use and, in fact, may be waiting for fact that we are taking steps. Tis is a frst step that we have the zoning to occur to catch up to the ofcial community committed to do because it is the right thing to do, because plan. So even if they wanted to do the redevelopment on the jobs are certainly at stake. property, they’re constrained because the policy and zoning I also want to make sure that in response to…. Again, haven’t been put in place that match what the ofcial com- the member from Kamloops spoke. He somehow morphed munity plan puts forward. this conversation about this bill into how long it takes to For example, many properties have current use of low- get housing through the various stages of development in density commercial or light industrial, but their highest and local governments. While the members opposite chose to best use, if they were to be redeveloped, is mixed residential fght mayors and councillors all around this province and commercial. Tis becomes a taxation issue for these proper- Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5787 to blame them for what has become a housing crisis, we’ve tions as part of the routine statute revision process. Te res- taken a diferent step. ult of that work is what we have in this bill. In fact, we announced at the UBCM…. I don’t know if Te ofce of the legislative counsel takes pride, as they the members opposite heard the announcement, but we are should, in the work that they do, and they serve this House reviewing the development approval process so that it can very well. Tat ofce, made up of people, serves this House be sped up, because it is a very costly endeavour to do those very well. Changes in the bill are presented before the Legis- developments. I just wanted to correct that for the record lature so that this Legislature can approve all changes to stat- and remind everybody that the members on the other side of utes, no matter how small or minor they may appear. the House had a decade and a half to address these concerns. In other words, there’s a very important principle here that Here we are, I guess, 15 months into our mandate, and we’re people cannot go in and just change statutes, even for minor already taking steps. corrections. Tey have to have the approval of the Legis- With that, I do want to note that my ministry is under- lature before any changes may be made. Besides, if we did taking a review of highest and best use valuation impacts that, we’d deprive the Leader of the Tird Party of an oppor- on other property classes that are dealing with similar tunity for a lot of fun on a regular basis. issues. We’ve certainly been hearing that, too, and we’ve Te changes need to be done with the authority of this started that work. House to ensure B.C. statutes are orderly and correct. I know that the members opposite, given that the member who just spoke mentioned…. She had been the minister M. Lee: I rise to speak in favour of this bill. As the title responsible for this fle, so she’s fully aware that this work suggests, it is minor corrections. As I appreciate, from the requires the ability to study what the impacts are, and that briefng that the Attorney General’s ofce arranged for me, in work is being undertaken as we speak. walking through the various provisions of this bill, it’s very In addition, we are looking at identifying property tax clear, when you look at the provisions, that they are minor mitigation strategies for small businesses subject to triple- corrections, indeed, of a necessary nature for the statutes net leases. Like the members opposite have said, this has that are being cited here. been an ongoing issue. Te member for Saanich North and [6:00 p.m.] the Islands said the same thing. It is, and it’s been going on I look forward to having a quick committee process on for years. I’m very proud of the fact that we’re taking the this bill and certainly will be speaking in favour of that as steps to address that, because we all know that those busi- well. nesses are vital to everyone in our communities. With that, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of the bill. A. Weaver: It gives me great pleasure to rise and speak in favour of most aspects of Bill 43, Miscellaneous Statutes Motion approved. (Minor Corrections) Amendment Act, 2018. Unlike the member for Vancouver-Langara and the Attor- Hon. S. Robinson: I move that the bill be referred to a ney General, I do believe one of the changes is very con- Committee of Whole House to be considered at the next sit- troversial, and I will come to that at a later point. Perhaps ting afer today. maybe I should…. Well, I’ll come to that at a later point. Tis bill, like previous miscellaneous statutes bills, cor- Bill 42, Assessment Amendment Act, 2018, read a second rects a number of typos and errors. It’s truly remarkable that time and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for some of these have been found. I’m amazed at the level of consideration at the next sitting of the House afer today. service we have here in British Columbia — for example, the change in Assessment Authority Act, the frst section, Hon. D. Eby: I call second reading of Bill 43, Mis- No. 1, in this bill. What it’s doing in this change…. Some- cellaneous Statutes (Minor Corrections) Amendment Act, body caught the change of December 3l and suggested it be 2018. changed to December 31 — 3l to 31. I literally couldn’t tell the diference. BILL 43 — MISCELLANEOUS STATUTES I asked my colleague the member for Saanich North and (MINOR CORRECTIONS) the Islands, and he couldn’t tell the diference. My colleague AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 the member for Cowichan Valley couldn’t tell the diference. Te Minister of Health couldn’t tell the diference. So what I Hon. D. Eby: I move the bill be now read a second time. had to do was ask the Attorney General. Te Attorney Gen- Bill 43 makes minor corrections and housekeeping amend- eral pointed out that he was advised that, in fact, the num- ments to various statutes. Tey’re all straightforward, non- ber 1 was not a number 1 in the frst December 31; it was the controversial corrections and all minor in nature. Te con- small case for the letter “l.” tents of the bill, when read, should refect that for all mem- Now, there’s just no way you could tell that. I have no idea, bers. Te ofce of legislative counsel gathers minor correc- because they are identical, how somebody was able to fnd that. Tat person, if that person reports to the Attorney Gen- 5788 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 eral, needs a pay raise, because this is just unbelievable, the by the previous government, the use of the word “fueling” level of accuracy in our legislation. with a single “l” instead of a double “l.” It’s unacceptable for You know, I think I’m going to pull across right to the a representative of Her Majesty the Queen to be using single very controversial section at this phase, and that is section 21 l’s in the words “fuelling” and “fuelled.” in this bill. Now, it is controversial at its fundamental level. What’s next? Is “travelled” going to have one “l”? Is “mod- What section 21(b) says here…. Well, the frst part’s not. Sec- elling” going to have one “l”? tion 21 is a change to schedule C. It says, “in the description of Coste Rocks Parks by striking out ‘1 hectares’ and substi- Interjections. tuting ‘1 hectare’” instead. Now that, I agree, is not contro- versial. Clearly, “1” is not plural, so it is correct, actually, to A. Weaver: What’s happening to our English language have the singular form of hectare. here in this Legislature today? I sympathize with the mem- However, look at the second change, that “BC Hydro Plan bers opposite who are saying, “Shame, shame,” to this. plan” should be changed and struck out and replaced with “BC Hydro Plan.” Interjection. Now, I remember in the leadership debates, in the lead- up to the last campaign, that there’s a very subtle diference A. Weaver: Even the Liberals have two l’s, as pointed out between the word “plan” and the number you use. I remem- by the member for Penticton, who’s really not supposed to ber accusing the B.C. NDP at that time of having a plan to heckle from the back when he’s not sitting in his chair. But I develop a plan to come up with a plan on MSP reform. I liked it. Tank you for that. asked the now Premier in the leadership debate: “Is what Moving forward, we have a couple of changes here, where you’re saying that you have a plan to develop a plan to come “an” was inadvertently written, and “a” has replaced “an” to up with a plan?” He responded: “Yes.” correct it. I totally appreciate that. Tere is, actually…. I’m Here, we’re talking about a B.C. Hydro plan plan. So I’m surprised we haven’t actually spawned a delegation from the not so sure that we can so glibly assume that this is a minor province of Quebec. I’m concerned that we haven’t actually correction in light of the fact that maybe we need a plan for seen the francophone society of British Columbia up in arms a B.C. Hydro plan and maybe we need a plan to come up about section 7 where the accent ague was lef of économie. with that plan to develop a B.C. Hydro plan. I look forward Instead of saying économie, it’s “economie.” What are we say- to exploring this at committee stage, and I do ask the Attor- ing to our French British Columbians when we are so lack- ney General to bring in senior ofcials from B.C. Hydro to adaisical that we don’t take care of the application of the justify the use of the removal of the word “plan” in its second accents? It’s just outrageous, shocking, but I’m glad that it’s case there. being fxed. We move forward in this. Of course, there are some really Tere are a few more examples, where “an” was changed important changes, like we see in section 2. Heaven forbid to “a” — very important. We’ve got a typo here — a typo we leave “Local” unitalicized. Tat’s been corrected. Tank that I make myself sometimes. In section 12, we see the you. Te section number is incorrect. Tat’s very important. International Commercial Arbitration Act has an important You know, this is shocking. Tis one is really shocking. spelling mistake. Tey spelled “usable” as u-s-e-a-b-l-e — a Not as shocking, actually, as the fact that in section 1, the classic error — and it should be u-s-a-b-l-e. Anyone who error in having the small case “l” instead of the number 1 has plays Scrabble will know that that’s a no-no, trying to get rid been in place since 1980. For 38 years, we have had Decem- of your extra “e,” no less. ber the 3l, small-cased, and not December 31 — 38 years. We have others, in terms of the Local Government Stat- [6:05 p.m.] utes (Housing Needs Reports) Amendment Act, we’ve got a Do we have to go back and look at every reference in our missing “R” there. Te “S.B.C.” was supposed to be “R.S.B.C.” history of law here to whether that was invoked and ensure Who knows what they were referring to with “S.B.C.”? that it was invoked correctly? But no…. We’ve got some renumbering of sections in section 14, a small addition in section 15. We’ve added the word “provi- Interjection. sions” in section 16. It says here: “one or more of this Act.” Who wrote that? Who wrote this Mortgage Brokers Act so A. Weaver: Wonderful. that it just said: “one or more of this Act”? What does that Te good news here is the changes are applied retroact- mean? Tank heavens we now know what it means. It’s actu- ively to 1980, so we’re safe. ally “one or more provisions of this act” — a critical, critical In terms of another issue that was really troubling to me addition that ensures that we actually are accurately dealing — it’s troubling to me that this actually happened — under with this. the 16 years of rule by the B.C. Liberals, I would have I’m really pleased to see the Parental Liability Act was thought that they’d have recognized the diference between updated. Heaven forbid we didn’t italicize the letter “y” in American spelling and Canadian spelling. front of “young ofenders.” Tat clearly has misled British Here we have, in the Clean Energy Act, an act brought in Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5789

Columbians. Tere’s another in the Water Act that wasn’t Bill 43, Miscellaneous Statutes (Minor Corrections) italicized. Tere are many of these. Amendment Act, 2018, read a second time and referred to a Another one that, frankly, I think is quite shocking — I Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the believe this is from the dark era of the 1990s. In the Resort next sitting of the House afer today. Municipality of Whistler Act, there’s an incorrect use of the word “which” instead of “that.” Tank goodness that the Hon. D. Eby: I call second reading of Bill 40, Electoral people who review legislation have caught the more appro- Reform Referendum 2018 Amendment Act, 2018. priate use of the word “that” instead of “which.” I am glad to see that that is changed here. BILL 40 — ELECTORAL REFORM Most of these are pretty pale. Again, coming back to the REFERENDUM 2018 AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 egregious error by the B.C. Liberals with respect to the two (continued) l’s, even in 2004, they were making that mistake, where they started talking in the Wildfre Act of “fuelling” with a single On the amendment (continued). “l” instead of a double “l” and “fuelled” with a single “l” instead of a double “l.” G. Kyllo: I’m happy to rise in the House and continue my [6:10 p.m.] remarks with respect to Bill 40, Electoral Reform Referen- With these changes, I’m sure that grammaticists from dum 2018 Amendment Act. north to south and east to west not only in British Columbia As I had shared with the House last week, I’m very con- but across our beautiful nation…. Subjects who revere the cerned about the upcoming referendum on proportional monarchy will recognize that these changes are actually at representation. the essence of what it means to be Canadian. I also wanted to just clarify an error I made last week in With that, I do thank the minister for bringing them for- referring to a motion that was actually moved by my col- ward. I’m particularly grateful that some of these are brought league the member for Vancouver–False Creek. I inadvert- forward retroactive to the year 1980, two retroactive to the ently indicated the mover was from Vancouver-Fraserview, Dark Ages of the 1990s and 1997 and one to 2016. so again, I just wanted to correct that for the record. Te only thing I feel sorry for in this debate is that I Last week when we spoke, I was able to share a little bit don’t get to listen to the comments and the remarks from about how proud I am to be a Canadian and how well our the member from Nanaimo, who went and got himself elec- current parliamentary system has worked, both for Canada ted yesterday and now appears not to be coming back to this and us here in British Columbia. I also talked about the value Legislature. of being a locally elected representative. I do thank the minister for bringing this forward. With all As I shared last week, I’ve lived in the community of seriousness, this is important work that our legislative team Shuswap for over 40 years now, and I think that the ability does. It’s important to have bills that are factual and correct. of a member to provide service to his constituents is really Obviously, I support this. I commend the work that’s done to indicative of the amount of time that they have spent in their fnd that — particularly, a pay raise for the person that found specifc riding. the “l” instead of the “1,” because that one was a toughie. I have four daughters and seven grandchildren, all resid- ing in Shuswap. I think that the amount of time that we Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the minister spend in our riding certainly makes us more in tune to the will close the debate. goings-on within our specifc ridings and provides us a bet- ter opportunity to be of great service to our constituents. Hon. D. Eby: Tank you to my counterpart in the oppo- Now, the current referendum process that is before the sition and particularly to the Leader of the Tird Party. He House today…. Tere have been a number of changes. If we always puts so much work into this one, and I always enjoy go back to 2005 and 2009, when the previous referendums hearing his remarks. were put before British Columbia, back in 2005, there was Actually, I hadn’t spotted the “1” and the “l” myself. It was acitizens’ assembly that was created. in asking a question that had been raised by the Leader of About 150 British Columbians, is my understanding, were the Tird Party that I learned myself about that error that actually identifed, and they sought out various diferent has persisted since ’79. Te House is all a little bit wiser now forms of proportional representation. Tey landed on one thanks to his eforts. form of PR. At that time, it was a single transferable vote. With that, I move second reading. With a question of the magnitude of going to potentially change the way that we elect governments in our province, Motion approved. it’s really important that the electorate has a very clear and concise choice. Back in 2005, STV was the form of propor- Hon. D. Eby: I move the bill be referred to a Committee tional representation that was identifed. of the Whole House to be considered at the next sitting [6:15 p.m.] afer today. Elections B.C. created the riding boundaries and riding 5790 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 maps so that when the question was put before British As we know, in past mail-in ballots when referendums have Columbians, they had a clear understanding of the type of been put to the electorate through a mail-in ballot, we have proportional representation that was being presented to very low voter turnout. them. As well, they were provided with all of the electoral Let’s just assume for a minute that we even have a 40 per- maps so they could clearly identify and see where their cent voter turnout, which I think is highly unlikely. Even hometowns and communities resided within that broader at 40 percent, the current referendum would indicate that a riding boundary change. margin over 20 percent of British Columbians could change Tere were also two thresholds. If we have a look at the way that we elect governments forever more. Tat is just something as fundamental as changing the way that we elect wrong. Even the Societies Act of B.C…. If you’re a society our governments, we want to make sure that there is a signi- and you want to actually look at changing your constitu- fcant majority of British Columbians that are actually voting tion or bylaws, it requires a two-thirds majority vote in order for that change. Tere was a 60 percent threshold that was to change the constitution or bylaws of a society operating put in place. So for the referendum to pass, it had to pass by within British Columbia. 60 percent of voters in the referendum process, and as well, Te NDP’s own party actually requires a two-thirds it had to pass in 60 percent of the ridings. majority for any major change of any policy change direction Now, I think that we can all appreciate the size and mag- within their own party. Yet here, for something as funda- nitude of the province of British Columbia. Some ridings are mental and important as the way we elect governments in as small as six city blocks; other ridings, over 100,000 square our province, they reduce that requirement — from the 60 kilometres. So I think it’s also very important that we give percent threshold, which we saw in previous referendums, consideration to making sure that the vast geographic nature down to 50 percent. of our province is also taken into play and into consideration When I talk to constituents in my home riding of in establishing how we may move forward for giving consid- Shuswap, people are extremely concerned. As one of my eration to a diferent way of electing governments and elect- colleagues has indicated, this is truly a stacked deck in a ing MLAs in our province. rigged game. What the current government has actually identifed…. [6:20 p.m.] Again, we have to go back to what the reason is that this Te process by which we are looking at moving forward referendum is before the House. In the last election, I cer- on this referendum is improper. It does not refect the true tainly did not have any constituents come up and express will of British Columbia. As well, they chose to actually make any concern to me about the type of election that we have the announcement and bring out the requirement during the in B.C. Tere were no questions brought to me on the door- heat of the summer, when British Columbians are not paying steps — knocking on literally hundreds of doors throughout attention. the Shuswap — from anybody expressing any concern about In my home riding of Shuswap, when I’m talking with electoral reform. and canvassing constituents, very few people are even aware But here we have the three Green Party members that of the upcoming referendum, let alone the forms of pro- would like to see their seat count in the House increase. portional representation that are actually put before British Under any form of PR, that would be the case, so there has Columbians. So you have voters that aren’t engaged. You been, I would assume, a signifcant amount of pressure put have a system that was put out before the electorate at a time on the current government in order to move forward with when a lot of people aren’t paying attention. It overlaps with this current referendum. our municipal elections, which we just recently had over this What have they done in order to help stack the deck in past weekend. And British Columbians are not fully aware of favour of a positive outcome for PR? Tey’ve reduced that or in tune with what’s actually happening. threshold, from 60 percent down to 50 percent. Tey’ve also Of the three diferent forms of proportional representa- removed any regional requirement. In previous referen- tion that are going to be out on the ballot, there’s a general dums, when there was a requirement to have the vote pass lack of understanding as far as how they would play out. in a minimum of 60 percent of the ridings around the Tere have been no electoral maps provided to British province…. Tey’ve taken that away. Columbians so they can actually see how these proposed When you have a province as diverse as and the size of changes would afect the way they vote and the riding British Columbia, it puts a signifcant amount of focus on the boundaries for their locally elected representative. highly populated areas. Te Lower Mainland and southern As well, as we know, up to 40 percent of MLAs, under the Vancouver Island have the population, and they can make forms of PR that are presented, would be selected of of party decisions that have a negative impact on other regions of the lists. So, rather than the opportunity to actually elect your province. Tey’ve removed that threshold. local representative, 40 percent of members of this House As well, they haven’t identifed any requirement for voter will be selected for you, not by the voters in a specifc ride turnout. Tey’ve chosen to go with a mail-in ballot, to the but by party bosses. Mr. Speaker, that is just clearly wrong. tune of $14½ million, so it’s a signifcant cost. And they’ve Tere are a number of commitments that the Premier had removed the requirement for any minimum voter turnout. made over the last year with respect to the form of ques- Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5791 tion that might be put before voters, and he had committed in the fall of 2018, because the outcome wouldn’t come into to British Columbians by indicating that if the referendum play until the fall of 2021. was going to be put before British Columbians, it would be a Tere is no urgency. Tere’s no rush to get this out the simple yes-no question. But that is not what’s happened. door. Tere certainly was time to have more engagement Again, our Premier of the province has fallen back on with an all-citizens assembly, to have more appropriate con- his word and actually moved forward with a process that is sultation with Elections B.C., to have a look at what the rid- very diferent from what he committed to British Columbi- ing boundaries may potentially look like — so that voters ans prior to the last election. actually knew what they were voting for. Now, the amendment before the House is to have a six- Under the current referendum, for British Columbians, month pause. As we know, this current bill, Bill 40, is looking there are far too many unanswered questions. A lot of the at handcufng or tying future governments to a future ref- details around how the forms of referendum will actually erendum process. We know that that just cannot be done. apply are yet to be established, and our Premier states: “Take Tis bill that is before the House, which is being debated, a leap of faith.” Well, as Vaughn Palmer indicated, he felt that largely is going to be putting a question for a future referen- it’s truly more appropriate to refer to as a leap into the dark. dum eight years into the future. We know that this bill can’t Tat certainly is something that I’m very concerned about actually be enforced. Future governments do have the ability — the manner in which this has been put before British of changing the way that they would even give consideration Columbians. Again, speaking to the amendment, I certainly to moving forward on future bills or future referendums that am supportive of taking a six-month pause and holding of may be put before British Columbians. on moving forward with the current bill. As we have a look at the true value of being elected as an MLA to represent your specifc riding, we all care deeply Hon. M. Farnworth moved adjournment of debate. about our communities. I think that the ability to provide service and to actually represent your local constituents is Motion approved. largely indicative of the time that you’ve spent in the riding by raising your families, by working — or some of us who are Hon. M. Farnworth: I move the House do now recess actually providing employment — and having a very good until seven o’clock. frsthand knowledge of what makes your various communit- ies within your riding tick. Motion approved. I think that is the most fundamental piece, in speaking to constituents in Shuswap that are most concerned…. Te idea Te House recessed from 6:28 p.m. to 7:01 p.m. of having a local representative — actually, the word “local” would go away — appointed to your riding that would not [L. Reid in the chair.] even be required to reside within your riding is just so wrong in so many ways. Hon. M. Farnworth: I call continued debate on Bill 40. Recently there was an article that was produced by Jock Finlayson speaking about some of his concerns on electoral Second Reading of Bills reform. He indicated that “there is nothing more funda- mental to democracy than free elections and the rules by BILL 40 — ELECTORAL REFORM which our legislative representatives are chosen. Changing REFERENDUM 2018 AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 this system is a serious undertaking and one that demands (continued) meaningful public engagement, clear alternatives that people can easily understand and a voting process that ensures that On the amendment (continued). the collective voice of British Columbians is heard.” [6:25 p.m.] Deputy Speaker: I recognize the member for Peace River Tis process has been rushed. Bill 5, which passed last fall, South. actually set out that there is a short timeline for this referen- dum to actually happen this fall. Yet we know that regardless M. Bernier: Tank you, hon. Speaker. of the outcome, if the referendum were to pass, it would not come into play until the fall of 2021, so what is the hurry? Interjection. We asked the question: why has the work not been done to adequately educate British Columbians about the three pro- M. Bernier: Tank you, as well, to my colleague from posed methods of proportional representation that are actu- Nechako for that. ally going to be put before voters? Tere certainly is no hurry It’s an honour to speak now that everybody’s back from or no rush, from what I can see in talking to any of my col- the dinner break. It’s interesting, on our Monday nights, to leagues, on why we had to have this referendum out the door be going into the evenings. Te frst shout-out that I think 5792 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018

I’ll do will be to my wife, Valerie, who’s at home and who’s I fnd it quite interesting, the contrast here. We have a gov- probably one of the few people watching right now. ernment who is actually trying to put it in — under the bill Hopefully, everybody else is enjoying their evening with last year and the one that we’re debating now — and the their families. But for those that are watching right now, or motion that we have in front of us to wait six months to for those that will be watching later, I think this is a really really gather more information because the people of British important opportunity we have here to be speaking to the Columbia have not been given a chance to get that inform- amendment to Bill 40. ation. Tat’s not the people’s fault. Te government has neg- Of course, Bill 40 is something that…. Really, when we’re lected, I would say, to do their job to ensure that we have a talking about changing the electoral system in the province fair referendum, that we have the information so the people of British Columbia here, it’s one of those times, I think, as of British Columbia can make an informed decision. Tat’s a local MLA, frst of all, to talk about the importance of an why this motion is in front of us today: to ensure that we at MLA, the importance of that local representation. You know, least, at the very minimum, allow a bit more time for people I’ve been through fve elections — fve or six, I think, now — to get that information. myself over my 15 years in public ofce. Every single one of Not just the polls around British Columbia…. But even those elections was run through a frst-past-the-post system. as a local MLA, when I’ve been going around my com- In the province of British Columbia, in the country of munity asking people about the referendum, it is amazing. Canada, for the most part, we have always run a stable I’m sure that every member in this House, in all three frst-past-the-post electoral system. If I look at some of the parties, if they’re doing their job, will have heard the same countries around the world that members opposite have thing. What referendum? Tere are a lot of people out tried to tout, for instance, as diferent, that work better, there that are being asked to vote for something that they they say a place like Belgium — we’ve heard this one in the haven’t even heard of yet. House before — that runs under a proportional represent- Now, there’s a little bit of smatterings here and there. ative system. People are starting to hear, but they don’t have the inform- My riding, represented by one MLA right now, which is ation. Tere are so many questions. Tere’s so much uncer- myself, is the same size as that country of Belgium. Belgium tainty. I would argue that the government has actually done has 150 MLAs and 60 senators that represent the same geo- that on purpose. Tey know that the people who are motiv- graphy that one person represents here in British Columbia ated to change the system are well aware of what’s going on, — myself. And I’ve got colleagues that have similar-sized because they actually helped shape a lot of this. ridings and even larger ridings than my own. When you look at what I’m facing personally, from my [7:05 p.m.] region, as the local representative…. What people in rural I should say that it can be a challenge, truthfully, to repres- British Columbia are being asked, arguably, to give up is ent a riding that large. Tere are diferences — diferences of that local voice, that person — it doesn’t matter what party opinions, defnitely; diferent communities; diferent regions — who is duly elected locally to bring that concern, those — that you have to represent even within the existing riding issues, down here to Victoria and to stand up for the people. system we have. And we have a government that is saying: We go through elections. We go through elections so that “We want to expand that. We want to make it even harder. people can put ideas forward and people can put policies We want to make it even larger.” forward. Tey can put a platform forward. Under the exist- I mean, in my corner of the province — literally, it’s the ing system we have, then people can go and vote and try to northeast corner of British Columbia — we already feel, decide maybe who they align with a bit more, which party being the furthest away from Victoria here in B.C., that we they align with, which ideas they align with. You will hear have to be louder, that we have to work harder to make sure the people opposite, the government and PR supporters say- that our issues, our concerns, are heard. Tat’s with local rep- ing: “Well, that’s why we need PR, because my ideas might resentation. Tat’s with a local person who understands the not align with the person who got in.” issues, who’s from the area, who listens to the concerns and Well, hon. Speaker, we have 4½ million people here in then, I would say, is duly elected to do so from that area. British Columbia. I’ll bet you and I could say we have 4½ We have a referendum here in front of us to change that million ideas, and people will never align 100 percent with electoral system. Interestingly, again, to go back to Belgium, anybody else. Tat’s great. Our democratic system allows because some of the members opposite who are trying to people to have those diferences. But we need to go through tout that as a success…. In fact, Belgium does not allow leg- a process to look at who represents, at least at the very min- ally binding referendums, as this government has put for- imum, the majority of people. ward. Why? Tey say it’s unconstitutional. Tey’ll allow hav- Now, I look at myself again as an example and every ing non-binding referendums to get the feel, to get the gauge, single person in this House — on this side and, I would of what the populace, the people in the country, might con- even hope and assume, on the opposite side here, in gov- sider. But they have made it illegal in countries like that, ernment and the Tird Party. You run on a platform in an which are under a PR system, to actually have binding refer- election. You win or you lose based on that platform. You endums. Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5793 win or you lose based on your performance in the past, there could be changes to that. “Te parties agree that they your ideas for the future. will work together in good faith” on a form of proportion- [7:10 p.m.] al representation agreed upon that’ll be put to the public. Tat’s what people want to know, what they want to hear Well, that hasn’t happened either. If you look at the ballot and what they vote on. But I also know that once you’re elec- that’s going out this week, there are three. I’ll get to that in a ted, if you’re the person that was successful and you’re in second. Tey also agree that they will work together to make your ofce in your riding, your party hat comes of. sure that this referendum passes. At no time has anybody walked into my ofce — or again, Ten, in the same breath, they say that this is not political, I would say, of anybody in this building — and said: “I’m that they haven’t tampered with anything. It’s all arm’s length. only in here because I know I voted for you and that you’ll Well, when you look at the fact that it’s now been changed to only help me because I voted for you.” I have never asked, 50 percent plus one — and people in the House have spoken nor should anybody in this House ever ask, who someone to the fact that the other two referendums were 60 percent voted for. Once you are elected, you represent 100 percent plus one, which was, even then, a lower threshold than the of the issues, concerns and people in your riding. Te pres- two-thirds that most changes for most other groups would ent system we have actually allows for that quite well, and it call for — to lower it to 50 percent plus one is something, I allows people, regardless of who they voted for, to know who would say, that from a rural perspective really concerns me. their MLA is and who they go and talk to. With that 50 percent plus one, they also got rid of region- One of the biggest things that I think is important as al thresholds — which we had in the other referendums to we go through this process is making sure people in Brit- ensure that, if nothing else, it was as fair as possible when a ish Columbia understand what’s at stake. Some of my col- referendum question was going forward. leagues have talked about not only the constitutional [7:15 p.m.] aspect but the fairness of what we have in front of us here In the last referendum, not only was it 60 percent plus one, with this referendum. When you have a referendum that not only was it made sure that there was a citizens’ group that has been changed — in this case, the third time that we’ve was put together, which actually made sure that it was arm’s had a referendum to look at a diferent electoral system length from government, but we had regional thresholds to — this is the frst time that it has been, I would say, gov- ensure that everybody around the province — especially in ernment-manipulated. It is government that’s actually set- larger rural areas, like myself — wasn’t steamrolled over by ting the agenda completely, without the people of British larger urban areas in the province. Tey made sure that their Columbia really having a say in the system. It’s the people voice was heard. of British Columbia who are going to be asked to vote I would say, just as important as those, government at the again, knowing that there’s been political interference on time, Elections B.C. and the citizens’ assembly knew that if the direction of a choice without the information. people were going to be voting on a system, they should at I have to throw those words back at the PR supporters least have as many facts as possible. One choice was given: who are saying: “It’s all about fairness.” Well, this is anything “You keep what we have now, or one other choice to change but fair. It is not fair when the people are asked to vote on to.” Tat was one that was selected by a group of people from something without that information. You know, why are we all over British Columbia, to make sure it was fair. here? I’ll talk a bit about some of that information on why Tey also said: “To be fair, we have to show you what the we’re here. maps are going to look like. We have to tell you up front Well, it kind of brings up the confdence and supply agree- what the ridings are going to look like. We have to make sure ment right away. First of all, when you look at the agreement that you know that you may lose your local representative that we have between the Green Party and the NDP for the if we go to a zone system.” Overwhelmingly, people in the NDP to be in power, they signed that confdence and supply province shot down that system in that last referendum — agreement to make sure that we have this referendum. arguably, again, because they had the proper information to Now, again, I know other people in the House have said make an informed decision. Tat was important to them — that the Green Party was pushing to ensure that we just actu- what they were going to either gain or lose by changing the ally had it forced through. So if I’m going to give any credit at electoral system. all to the NDP,at least we’re going through a referendum and Tis time it’s been completely gamed: “Tis time let’s leave not just implementing an electoral system, but when I look that information out. Let’s let people guess. Let’s just put at the confdence and supply agreement — why we’re going all these slogans out there and see if that’s what will make through this whole referendum to begin with — under that, people excited to change our electoral system.” Of the people what was signed and what was agreed upon between those in my area, the more I sit down and talk to them about the two parties to be in government, it says that a referendum on options that we could change to…. Tere is concern. I would PR will and must take place in the fall of 2018, concurrent say there’s even fear by people, once they understand what with the municipal election. Well, oops. Tat didn’t happen. they could be losing. Te form of PR approved in the referendum must be I’m curious if other rural MLAs in this House, from the enacted in the next provincial election. Now we’ve heard that government side, have had the guts to stand in their riding 5794 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 and say: “Just so you know, I support PR. I signed a docu- Under a PR system, you lose that ability, and you’re going ment that says I have to support PR. By the way, I probably to have to trust a party to appoint somebody that you may won’t be your MLA next time. Somebody will be appointed, or may not like, that you probably can’t have any relationship and there’s no guarantee it’ll be me.” with because who knows where they’re from, not necessarily I wonder if they’ve had the guts to talk to the people in even from your area. But if there’s anything that people can rural B.C. to say: “We’re willing to sacrifce your represent- learn from PR, proportional representation, if you look at ative. We’re willing to sacrifce your voice to ensure that we almost every case study from around the world — if you’re have this “every vote counts.” By the way, 90 percent of those unhappy with an MLA or a party, it’s almost impossible to votes are outside of rural British Columbia. Tat, I think, get rid of them. Tere is almost no accountability when you is not only unfair and undemocratic. To the people of rural put the decisions in the hands of parties, of backroom people British Columbia, that is why there’s so much to lose. who are making deals, rather than the voters who get to Now, I don’t want to stand here and create the whole choose the person that they want. thought, which we’ve been talking about so many times, I know the Premier stood up here and said: “I hope the about the rural-urban divide. I’ve talked to lots of urban people will take a leap of faith.” Not sure if the people of Brit- people about this issue. When I’ve explained to them what ish Columbia right now can trust the Premier on that com- rural B.C. has to lose, they tell me that’s not fair as well. Tis ment, especially when he said he was going to make it an should be of just as much concern for people in downtown easy, two-choice question on a ballot. Broke that promise. Vancouver, who have a riding of six square kilometres, as in Seems like almost every single promise on this referendum a riding like mine that is 36,000 square kilometres. Tere are has been broken. So if we have this amendment in front of diferent issues, but we still have to have that voice here in us, at least with that, it will give the Premier and the NDP at Victoria because of that. least six months to try to come good on some of the prom- When I look at Belgium, again, as an example…. Of ises that they’ve broken on this referendum. So I think, in course, the government put forward these low thresholds. all fairness, they should be voting with us to basically sup- All you need, I think, is 5 percent of the vote in order to have port that and try to back-pedal a little bit from the decisions a seat in this House. Well, in the last election in Belgium, they’ve made that have been wrong. they ended up having 14 parties that ran. Twelve met the 5 I want to go back again, if I can for a second, to the elec- percent — or 3 percent, I think it is there — threshold. Out tions that we had this weekend. I want to congratulate all of that, under a PR system, the parties get together in a back the people, frst of all, who ran, who put their names for- room, and they appoint 150 MLAs to represent the diferent ward to run for public ofce. It is a huge commitment. It is jurisdictions and quadrants that they have in Belgium. a huge sacrifce, I’d say, in a lot of ways, in local government. Tat’s what we’re looking at here in British Columbia. We As a former mayor, three terms myself on local government, are actually looking at changing a system to the point where sometimes I miss those days of the real direct, hands-on, people are going to sit in back rooms and make decisions for cofee shop, make decisions quickly to help the people. And people. We’re going to have parties in which, people in this the one thing about that, too, is there’s accountability, and room now, if they want to be an MLA…. the frst-past-the-post system, which we have, which people [7:20 p.m.] understand, recognized that. I wonder if the members opposite have had the guts to If you’re running for mayor or a councillor, people can stand up and say that too: “Don’t worry, I’m not putting my go in and decide if they’re going to vote for you. You do a name on the ballot. I’m not running in the next election. I’ve crappy job, guess what. Tey’re not voting for you next time, worked out a deal to be on the party list. Don’t worry. I’ll be and there are ways to get rid of you. Under PR, that won’t a representative somewhere, as long as we get enough votes necessarily happen. Can you imagine if we had proportional here in British Columbia. Hey, I might not be here. I might representation in local governments? I’ve heard some people live up north, but I might be the next MLA for North Island challenge me over the weekend when I was making com- or Surrey, for that matter. It’s wherever the party decides to ments about why are we even trying to have two diferent put people, for whatever reason.” But they decide. systems here in British Columbia, frst-past-the-post for loc- Right now under a frst-past-the-post system, the al government and proportional representation for provin- decisions are 100 percent in the hands of the voters. Tey cial. Some people tried to challenge me and say: “Well, why go to a poll, they look at the names, they decide who they don’t we do a PR, then, for local government, make every want to vote for, and that person who gets the majority of vote count?” the votes will become the MLA. It’s simple. People under- Well, can you imagine, when you have municipalities stand it. We’ve done it for decades. In fact, if you look at where you’ve got two, three or four people running for may- the election we just had this weekend, well, that’s how it was or? Well, let’s use the system that we’re trying to put in place handled there too. A frst-past-the-post system for the loc- here for the province now. As long as a mayor candidate gets al government elections this weekend. Why? People under- 5 percent of the vote…. I’m trying to make sure people can stand it. It’s simple. Tere’s accountability. And there’s choice understand this one, because it does get confusing. If a may- for the voter. or candidate gets 5 percent of the vote under a PR system, Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5795 they’d be entitled to a percentage of the say, now, as mayor in policies into British Columbia fnally. Tat’s a quote directly city hall. here recently from the Communist Party in British [7:25 p.m.] Columbia. Tey’re actually excited about PR because they Tink about that for a second. If you had some communit- think it’s their door into helping move their agenda into B.C. ies like Vancouver…. I know that my colleague is probably Now, some people say that’s fearmongering, that’s extrem- going to talk about that in more detail with some informa- ism. Yeah, actually it is, because it could happen. And that’s, tion on that aferwards. But if you look at the close election I think, a concern that it’s important that we raise for people we had in Vancouver…. By the way, a former NDP MP win- so they understand what’s at stake. You’ve got the Vancouver ning mayor of Vancouver. Congratulations to him — 29 per- Island Party. Tey’re out there talking about: “Finally, we cent of the vote, I might add. He’s now the mayor of Vancou- might actually get enough seats to start a Vancouver Island ver. But under a PR system, the second-place person with 28 separatist party and create our own province here in British percent — and a few more, as long as they got more than 5 Columbia.” I wish I was joking. I’m not. Tese are actual percent — would now be sharing the mayoral duties for the facts. Tese are things that are being said. Tese are the ideas city of Vancouver under a PR system. Not quite sure how you that some people have out here. And these are actually the do that — rock, paper, scissors, maybe? It might be a choice things that proportional representation could bring to Brit- of: “You be mayor this week; I’ll be mayor next week.” Tat’s ish Columbia. what PR brings. It’s that kind of, I would say, craziness and Now let’s go back to the referendum itself for a minute. I uncertainty within a community and, in this case, within the know that on this side of the House, we’re speaking against province. it. Te big reason why I’m speaking against it and a lot of People will not know what’s in front of them, the reason my colleagues are speaking against it is because of the gerry- being that you never know what kind of deals are going to mandering, the unfairness, the way this referendum is being be made behind the scenes in order to have power and be in put forward. government. Well, they’re getting a taste of it, when you look [7:30 p.m.] at the three Green MLAs that had to work out deals and now I have publicly said, in my riding and in other places, that backroom deals that they work through their secretariat for I would not have picked sides and been more neutral and let the NDP to stay in government. Tat is a very small snippet the people of British Columbia actually have a say if they had of what people could expect, actually, under PR. Tat’s exag- all of the information. We don’t know how many MLAs there gerated a little bit but that kind of situation. are going to be. We have 87. We’re hearing it can go up. But When we have this bill in front of us that we want to make to what? We don’t know. Tis government has not given that sure that we amend, we’re all going to be, hopefully, speak- information to the people of B.C. ing to this. It’s not only the uncertainty of this referendum I’d love to be able to tell people: “Vote on this, and you’ll with no information that people are being asked to vote on. know the size of the riding and you can make an informed But it’s also the fear of what could happen. Yes, I say fear of decision.”I can’t do that because the government has not giv- what could happen if we actually have PR in the province en that information, has not allowed Elections B.C. to give of British Columbia. Maybe in a place like Belgium it could that information. Arguably, Election B.C.’s job should be to work. Tey don’t have the geographical diferences that Brit- make sure that that is out there as well, but in all fairness, ish Columbia has — the diferences between large rural and they have not been given that information by government urban areas like we have. In British Columbia, we do have for people to be able to make that decision. those diferences. We don’t know what constitutes a rural or urban riding. But we also have — what? I think it’s 27 registered parties We don’t know who’s going to be allowed to run. I could go here in British Columbia. Can you imagine how that would on and on about the lack of information that’s been given by look for uncertainty in B.C.? But what also has me con- this government for people to make an informed decision. cerned are some of the things that we’re hearing from some In absence of that information, the people of British of those parties right now in British Columbia. I look at, for Columbia have no choice, in my humble opinion, to not only instance…. We actually, believe it or not…. I know some support us on this motion to have it extended, at the very people challenged me on this, and I told them to go look least, but they should be, now that the information is starting at the last elections, in 2013 and in 2017, because they did to hit the mailbox, voting to keep the same system we have. run. We actually have a Communist Party here in British Tey should be pressuring this government, even if they’re in Columbia. favour of PR, to vote against this, because they haven’t been We have other parties, as well, that I would say could be given enough information. extreme in thoughts or views. I don’t know if the people of Te people of British Columbia deserve better. Tey British Columbia en masse in any stance or corner would deserve a government that’s going to be fair, that’s going support a lot of those views. But it’s interesting, they’re out to give all of the information, and then the chips can fall there touting that a small party like the Communist Party wherever they’re going to be. Tey have not done that. Tey can actually “potentially hold the balance of power and use have not done their due diligence, I would say, as a govern- that position” to start moving neo-libertarian austerity ment, to do the right thing, the honourable thing, the con- 5796 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 stitutional thing and the fair thing for the people of B.C. so tatives for a specifc mandate, the same principles underly- they can make the decision that’s best for them. ing election legislation should in general be applicable to the Tat information is out in the mailboxes right now. I urge referendum legislation.” Ten the court says to see the pre- people to keep the same system, because the government has vious comments in the case that I recognized above. “Tere not done their job to convince them otherwise. are enough points of similarity between the two systems to draw such a parallel.” M. Morris: I’m going to speak in favour of the amend- Here we have the Supreme Court providing instruction to ment to Bill 40 here, but before I start, I want to talk about a governments across Canada on how to look at referendums, bit of a metaphor when I look at this process, which I believe saying that the general principles that apply to a general elec- is a fawed process. tion also need to apply to referendums. Tis has been dis- When we build a building, we put a lot of resources and regarded by this government. Te referendum process, like engineering into the foundation of that building to make I said, is fawed. Te foundational principles are absent, and sure it will support the weight that is going to eventually the second referendum that’s implied in Bill 40 will also be be there. So the engineering into the structure, the concrete fawed as well. It’s a part of that foundation. Te foundation that’s poured in that foundation to support the weight of is cracked, and whatever is developed from that foundation that structure, is no diferent than the process that we use onward will be fawed. in developing a referendum or if we develop legislation with Te Electoral Reform Referendum 2018 Act and regula- respect to proportional representation. Te foundation and tions require that the referendum be held by mail-in ballot the engineering that is required to hold the weight that this between the 22nd of October and the 30th of November. legislation and this referendum is going to put upon British Te local government elections were held on October 20. Columbians…. Te foundation that holds that is our consti- Te campaign for the referendum period commenced on tution, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that we have in July 1 and runs through to November 30. It was running Canada that I hold so dearly and that I’ll fght, to ensure that concurrent with the campaign period for the local govern- everybody’s rights are upheld. ment election. Te introduction of Bill 40 at this time only In speaking to the referendum, I had mentioned that it’s adds to the confusion in the process. Te voters are com- a fawed process. It not only requires constitutional ground- pletely bafed by what this government has been doing ing, but it needs to be recognized as equally as important as a over the past few months with respect to the referendum general election. I’m going to quote a couple of quotes from act, 2018, and now Bill 40. the Supreme Court of Canada. Tis case is a 1993 case, Haig I want to bring up section 23 of the B.C. Constitution v. Canada. Te court in this case said: “During the course of Act, bearing in mind that every statute that we have in the hearing, an argument was advanced that a referendum British Columbia is premised upon and built upon the was distinct from and less important than an election. It was Constitution Act, 1982. Section 23 of the B.C. Constitu- argued that, as a result, the generous principles applicable to tion Act states that a campaign period for a general elec- the right to vote in elections should not apply with the same tion cannot overlap with a local government election cam- force to a referendum.” Te judge said: “I cannot accept that paign. We’ve got the Supreme Court of Canada saying that contention…. Te same principles applicable to the right to the same principles that apply to a general election also are vote in elections should be applied in the same manner to applicable to a referendum. the right to vote in a referendum.” Tis is from 1993. We’ve got a contradiction here. We have a referendum [7:35 p.m.] being held and the campaign being held during a local elec- So life carried on. Of course, all of these stem from…. In tion campaign, contrary to section 23 of the Constitution 1982, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was entrenched Act. Further to that, though, the Chief Electoral Ofcer, in into the Constitution of Canada. It was amended, and it’s his report on the provincial general election and referendum called the Constitution Act, 1982. As a result of that, there on electoral reform dated May 12, 2009, provided advice to were a number of cases that went before the courts, all the the provincial government of the day. way from the Supreme Courts in the provinces through the I’ll quote from that report: “Te referendum was to be Court of Appeal process and into the Supreme Court of conducted in tandem with the November 15, 2008, local Canada, where the petitioners argued against various sec- government elections. Initial planning revealed signifcant tions of the constitution and electoral process in Canada. issues related to conducting a provincial referendum in tan- Tere was another case that went to the Supreme Court dem with local government elections.” So back in 2009, it of Canada. Tis was in 1997. Te court said, “Although the was recognized as a problem. Nothing has changed in law referendum system is diferent from the electoral system, in between 2009 and 2018. that the popular vote concerns a specifc question and is not [7:40 p.m.] necessarily binding on the government,” which in this case it In addition to the confusion that we have by overlapping is. In this case, it’s more than a simple question. It’s a com- the two campaigns, we had a local government campaign plex set of questions. Te court went on to say: “…whereas in period and local government elections that were probably an election the people vote to elect their political represen- Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5797 the most confusing and complex local elections that we’ve that to happen in British Columbia, then he needs to follow seen in this province. the process that’s outlined in the Constitution Act, 1982, to We had a high number of mayors running in some of the change the constitution to allow them to hold a referendum municipalities, or people running for mayor. We had a long as he sees ft here with no majority, with no supermajority. list of candidates running for council. We’ve had a long list of Te Premier cannot do this on his own without doing that. people running for school districts. Some of the ballots were Now, the process has started. Te Referendum Act was enormous in size, and it took people a long time to wrap passed in this House, even though this side voted against it. their heads around exactly what that looked like. Te Greens and the NDP voted in favour of it. Now, you add to this a binding referendum that govern- [7:45 p.m.] ment has thrown at the people at the same time as the people But it’s a fawed process. It is unconstitutional. It breaches are trying to digest the complexities associated with the local the Charter rights that we have in Canada, in British government election, and now they’ve got this possibility of Columbia. Te courts will determine that in due course. Tis a further referendum being thrust upon them somewhere government is going to cost millions of dollars in court cases down the road in the future. for the courts to ultimately say: “Yeah, the government had I would say that the average voter in British Columbia no right to do that. It is unconstitutional. Should never have must be totally confused, because most of these people in happened.” the House are totally confused over this as well. Most of Bill 40 suggests that a second referendum take place to the people in the House, and particularly government, don’t determine if the citizens of B.C. want to continue with this realize the enormity of the situation we have before us here proportional representation process that they know nothing when it comes to the constitution and the Charter of the about at this particular time. How confusing is that? To Rights and Freedoms of everybody. throw that out to them at this particular time and say: “But if Te other part of this that I have a great deal of difculty you guys aren’t happy with the decision that you make, we’ll with is there are no regional thresholds. It’s 50 percent plus have another referendum somewhere way down the road one of the eligible votes cast. Te Constitution Act, 1982, has here so that you can get out of it if you don’t like it.” provisions in there for electoral reform. It’s got provisions for You know, it’s wrong on many counts. It’s wrong because a supermajority in that statute. Te general provisions and it’s unconstitutional. It’s wrong because it ties the hands of the general thoughts behind that legislation dictate that elec- future governments as we move forward down the road. If toral reform needs to have that supermajority right across the government is questioning whether proportional repres- Canada. Any provincial government that wants to step into entation is valid, perhaps they should just cancel the referen- this foray needs to ensure that the Constitution Act, 1982, is dum altogether and say: “We’ll probably have to have a look adhered to. at this later on, once we change the constitution.”I wish them In this case, it’s not. Te Attorney General and the Premier luck, because there have been other changes that have been seem to ignore that completely, violating everybody’s con- recommended to the federal parliament to change the con- stitutional rights here in British Columbia. I’m questioning stitution that haven’t succeeded in the past. government with respect to this. Tis morning there was a motion in the House talking We’ve got 50 percent plus one of eligible votes cast. Nor- about an electoral system where every vote counts. As I mally, in the electoral process and the change for the elect- stated this morning during that motion, Elections B.C. oral process, you’d be looking at 50 percent of eligible voters. does count every vote that comes in. Tat’s their job. Tey Big diference between 50 percent of eligible voters and 50 count every single vote that comes before them. Ten I’ve percent of eligible votes cast, particularly when you’ve got heard the members opposite say, and I’ve heard pro- voters in British Columbia who are exhausted, who are con- ponents for proportional representation say: “My vote isn’t fused from going through this very complex local govern- counted at the end of the day because the person I voted ment election cycle that we’ve just seen, who are very con- for didn’t get elected.” fused over this complex question that is being thrust upon Again, I’m going to refer to the Supreme Court of Canada. them by the provincial government. I guess my whole job, my whole purpose, during the senior Te Premier is saying we don’t need this supermajority. years in the RCMP, was to ensure that all of the work that Even though every non-proft, corporation, organization, we did as a police force was constitutional and followed the political party and other volunteer group in British rules of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Columbia, if they want to change their constitution, they Afer I lef the force, I became an adjudicator with the need a two-thirds majority in order to do that. Health Professions Review Board. I relied on the charter and Yet we don’t need that in British Columbia to change our the jurisprudence out there for six years as I heard countless electoral system. We don’t need that at all. We can just forge cases right across this province, dealing with various things ahead and change our system. If two people show up, they under the Health Act. I’m familiar…. I can walk my way get to vote, and if one of them votes in favour of it, hey, through the law libraries, the legal libraries. I can work my maybe we’ve got a new electoral system. It’s that ridiculous. way through the constitutional issues that are out there. I’m If the Premier wants to change the constitution to allow 5798 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 not a lawyer, but it’s been one of my sidelines, I guess. One of section 3 of the Charter. It’s unconstitutional. It doesn’t ft my hobbies. within the framework. I go back to a Supreme Court of Canada decision from Te courts, in various decisions here — there was another 2003. If anybody — the members opposite — want any of one that came out in 2003, as well — stated that the purpose the citations, I can certainly give it to them. Te court, in this of section 3 includes not only the right of each citizen to have case, said, “In each election, a signifcant number of citizens and to vote for an elected representative in parliament or of vote for candidates nominated by registered parties in full the Legislative Assembly but also to the right of each citizen awareness that the candidate has no realistic chance of win- to play a meaningful role in the electoral process — so efect- ning a seat in Parliament or that the party of which she or he ive and meaningful participation in the process prior to the is a member has no realistic chance of winning a majority of vote taking place. seats in the House of Commons” — or in this case, the pro- Everybody gets a chance to vote. Tey have a chance to vincial Legislature. “Just as these votes are not wasted votes, go out and listen to all of the candidates out there, listen to votes for a political party that has not satisfed the threshold what their platform is all about, listen to what their policies are not wasted votes either.” are all about, and based on their perception of the individual Te courts recognized that the votes aren’t wasted. Every- and based on the policies and the platform they have to ofer, body’s vote is counted. everybody makes a legitimate vote. Again, I go back to a statement I made earlier on. So 1982 Te court also said, in analyzing section 3, that section 3 is when the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was entrenched should be understood with reference to the right of each cit- in our constitution, and various actions were brought against izen to play a meaningful role in the electoral process rather the court dealing with electoral processes in Canada. Te than the election of a particular form of government. It’s frst one that dealt with section 3 of our Charter of Rights found in the fact that the rights of section 3 are participat- and Freedoms occurred here in British Columbia. Tat case ory in nature. Section 3 does not advert to the composition was Dixon. I can provide that to the members opposite. of parliament subsequent to an election but only to the right I would suggest at this time, too, that if the members are of each citizen to a certain level of participation in the elect- really serious about abiding by the Charter of Rights and oral process. Freedoms and understanding how our electoral process got What proportional representation is purporting to pro- to where it is today…. mote, as I’ve seen it and heard members of government [7:50 p.m.] speak about it and heard the proponents of PR speak about it It’s modern. I heard the Premier say the other day: “It’s before…. Tey want to determine who sits in the House afer outdated. It dates back to the 1800s. It doesn’t meet the mod- an election is already over and completed. ern standards that we have in Canada.” Well, I beg to difer We have 87 ridings in British Columbia. Te ridings were with him. It goes back to the roots of Confederation — 1867, developed as a result of the Dixon case. Te court came Sir John A. Macdonald — but it’s been modernized. It’s been back and said: “B.C., the way you determine your electoral challenged in the court system, and the courts have defned boundaries and the representation is contrary to the consti- and redefned some of the provisions of it, particularly since tution. You need to do a better job.”So B.C. came up with the the Charter of Rights and Freedoms came along. It is mod- Electoral Boundaries Commission Act. Every so many years, ern. It does meet our specifc standards today. they go out and they re-establish boundaries so that we have Te case was Dixon, 1989, B.C. Court of Appeal. Tey representation by population, which is very important, the provided an excellent overview of it. If the members want courts have decided. to read it, it’s about a 50-page decision. Te judge goes into We can deviate up to 25 percent because of geographical an in-depth analysis of the history of how we got here, an and regional diferences. Tat goes all the way back to a in-depth analysis of what section 3 of the Charter of Rights speech that Sir John A. Macdonald made back in 1867 in the and Freedoms states. Section 3 of the Charter of Rights development of the constitution. When we look at the rep- and Freedoms says that every citizen of Canada has the resentation by population, it helped us create the 87 ridings right to vote for a member of the House of Commons or that we have today where candidates go out in those ridings, the Legislative Assembly and to be qualifed for member- and they strut their stuf. Tey talk about their policy, their ship therein. Pretty simple. Pretty simple statement but a platforms. Teir personality shows through, as to whether powerful statement. or not they’ll have a strong enough voice for that particular It doesn’t say that political parties or government — or area, and everybody votes. Tose are 87 separate elections, if anybody else, for that matter — can appoint members of we want to look at it that way. the Legislature, because every citizen has the right to elect a [7:55 p.m.] member of this House. So the notion that government has Te results come in. And then somebody says, with pro- put forward in these PR models that they have here, where portional representation: “Hey, let’s have a look at that.” they say that 60 percent of the members will be voted in and We’ve got these 87 ridings that have come in. Now we’re 40 percent of the members will be appointed, is contrary to going to apply this Droop formula, this mathematical equa- Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5799 tion, and we’re going to determine the proportion of the not apply the mathematical formula at the end of the day. popular vote. Afer everybody has had their vote and everybody has made We would have 70 ridings that may not have had a Green a determination of who they want to sit and represent them candidate campaign during that election period, and we in this House…. Ten you apply a mathematical formula would have several candidates in southern Vancouver Island and say: “Well, the general consensus is that we need this — let’s use that just for a case — that would run. And 17 per- party because they got X number of votes, and we need that cent of the popular vote indicates that the Greens need 17 party because they got X number of votes.” percent of the seats in the House. We hear all kinds of things about these false majorities. What happened to all of the other 70 candidates You know, the false majority — that’s a good term for the fact throughout the rest of the province? Tey never had a Green that they didn’t win. Te majority of people in the regions…. candidate show up, and the people in those areas didn’t vote We have 87 separate elections that take place in this province Green. Tey didn’t want Green. Tey wanted a Liberal or every time we have a general election, and those are the perhaps an NDP. Tey didn’t want Green, but now we have majorities. Tose are the plurality of votes that count. this thrust upon us. Te Dixon case — again, I can’t emphasize enough. I think Te courts have said, in a couple of the cases that I looked everybody should have a look at that case. It’s been founda- at here…. In one of the cases from 1991, the court said that tional. It’s been one that the Supreme Court of Canada has the process of adjusting for factors other than population is used many, many times over the years since that decision not capable of precise mathematical defnition. came out in 1989. I don’t have it on hand here, but there are two or three [8:00 p.m.] Supreme Court of Canada cases that I read that occurred in Beverley McLachlin was the Chief Justice of the B.C. the ’90s and into the early 2000s that specifcally said that Court of Appeal at that particular time. She wrote that mathematics has no place in determining the equality of the decision. She did a lot of work on it. A year later she was vote in Canada. Mathematics doesn’t play. It goes right back appointed to the bench of the Supreme Court of Canada. to Sir John A. Macdonald’s day, when he said representa- In 2000, she became the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court tion by population is important, but regional and geographic of Canada and held that position for 18 years until she just considerations are equally important as well. recently retired — a very learned individual. Te court said: “B.C., you can deviate by plus or minus 25 percent when you determine these boundaries, but you can’t [R. Chouhan in the chair.] arbitrarily say we’re going to deviate by 25 percent.” It has to be justifed under rationale developed on those geographical In that case, she looked at it, and she said she recognized and regional diferences. that there were ten core values that guaranteed your right to Part of that is the fact…. Look at rural British Columbia, vote under section 3. Te frst one was: “Te right not to be which is just about everything north of the greater Vancou- denied the franchise on the grounds of race, sex, educational ver area and north of the capital regional district. Rural Brit- qualifcation or criteria.” Te second: “Te right to be pres- ish Columbia produced 80 percent, on average, over the last ented with a choice of candidates….” Te third: “Te right ten years, of B.C.’s exports — 80 percent of B.C.’s exports. to a secret ballot.” Te fourth, “Te right to have one’s vote Tat has equated to between $10 billion and $25 billion a counted,” and not dismissed because of some mathematical year of revenue coming into the province because of B.C.’s equation. Te ffh: “Te right to have one’s vote count for the resource exports from rural B.C. same as other valid votes cast in a district.” Te sixth: “Te I dare say, we punch above our weight. Te money that right to have sufcient information about public policies to rural British Columbia brings into the economy in British permit an informed decision.” Columbia is one of those signifcant diferences that we need General principles apply to referendums. We don’t have to have a look at. enough information to vote on that. When people are voting in the Peace River, they’re voting “Te right to be represented by a candidate with at least a for somebody who’s going to support Site C. Tey’re voting plurality of votes in a district.” How about that? Tat doesn’t for somebody who’s going to support LNG. Tey’re voting show up under a PR model. for somebody that’s going to vote for oil and gas. When you “Te right to vote in periodic elections. Te right to cast have somebody voting in my district, they’re going to be vot- one’s vote in an electoral system which has not been ‘gerry- ing for forestry. Tey’re going to be voting for mining. mandered’…or deliberately engineered so as to favour one We’ve got Mount Milligan in the area that produces great political party over another.” quantities of copper. When we go into the Lakes District and Ten Madam McLachlin added a tenth one: the right to most of rural British Columbia, mining is a big part of it. “equality of voting power.” Tat’s where we came into the Forestry is a big part of it. Oil and gas and the resource sector electoral districts, dividing the population up and taking are a big part of it. It doesn’t show up on the Green platform into those regional and geographical considerations. very much, so people aren’t going to vote in that direction. Te court further stated, and I’ll quote the court here: Tat’s what needs to be taken into consideration. You can- “Te only provision in the Constitution Act, 1982, dealing 5800 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018 with electoral apportionment places regional considerations about a third, a third, a third. A third of people support over strict ‘representation by population.’ Section 42(1)(a),” PR; a third of the people do not. And then there’s a third of the constitution, “provides that ‘the principle of propor- of the people that are questioning. So there are more people tionate representation of the provinces in the House of Com- questioning or opposed to proportional representation than mons’ is subject to the amending formula in section 38…. there are in support. Interpreting section 3 of the Charter as requiring mathemat- Tis must be very frightening to the Greens, since we ical equality of voting power would seem to run counter to know that the reason why we’re having this referendum is to these provisions.” please them and keep the NDP and Green coalition together. Again, if the Premier wants to change the constitution It was part of their prenuptial agreement, and their marriage so that we can accommodate proportional representation in would possibly be annulled if the NDP didn’t agree to this British Columbia, so that we can accommodate this very referendum. fawed referendum process, then I suggest he look at section What is the defnition of proportional representation? 42(1)(a) of the Constitution and follow the process under Well, the word “proportional” means that if there are 87 rid- that particular statute in order to avert disaster within the ings…. We haven’t really been given an absolute whether or province here with a fawed referendum process. not those ridings would change, but say, for all intents and purposes, it is. What we’ve heard, with the model that is J. Tornthwaite: I’d like to give a shout-out to my CA, most talked about, is that 40 percent of the MLAs would be who’s here, Nick Hosseinzadeh. He was here with the rest of appointed and 60 percent would be elected. But where do we the CAs on their convention. I’m very proud of the work that get that 40 percent? Well, the answer is: party lists. And then he does for me on behalf of North Vancouver. the people that I talked to, when we would get to that much So we’re talking about Bill 40. I originally talked about Bill detail, would go: “What is that?” 40 last week, October 16, and I’m not going to repeat what I Well, if we take the results from the last election where the said. Right now what we’re speaking on is the hoist motion Greens got 17 percent of the vote, under proportional rep- to put a pause on this referendum for six months, and I cer- resentation it would not just be the three seats that they actu- tainly agree with that and support this motion. ally earned through frst-past-the-post. It would be closer to Today is the frst day that the referendum question is ten. And if we have 87 ridings — I’m not too sure whether or arriving in everybody’s mail. It’s not lost on any of us on not we still will but suggest we do — that means the percent- this side that, despite the Leader of the Opposition asking age of Liberals and NDP would go down accordingly just to the Premier to debate proportional representation publicly keep the 87 seats. But for sure, we don’t know whether or not with the so-called consortium of media, we still don’t have that is true, but we know that there will be some shufing in a date set, and we also don’t really know when that would numbers, and probably the Liberals and the NDP would go happen. Obviously, we would prefer it sooner rather than down accordingly because we would have to up the Greens. later because people can start voting essentially today, and But where would those people come from? We don’t we don’t want to be waiting until the end of the voting period know. If the Green bosses preferred their candidate from X to have a debate. Tat would be totally not worthwhile. region, then perhaps they’d just parachute that person to the Te clock is ticking starting today. Again, we’re waiting North Shore. Who would they be? We don’t know. Would for that answer from the Premier. Of course, the question their name be on the ballot, or would that be determined is then: why are we waiting? Actually, I think that the reas- afer the election? Would we, as the public, get a chance to on why we’re waiting is because the government is afraid vote on that party list? Open or closed list? Would we actu- that the more people learn about proportional represent- ally get to vote for an MLA personally, or would it be part of ation and the more they know about it, the more they do a list that we were allowed to vote on? We don’t know that not support it. either — open or closed list. [8:05 p.m.] How big are the ridings? Tis has been questioned numer- Last summer no one seemed to care that we were having ous times. We have no maps. At least with the Citizens’ a referendum. Tey didn’t know that we were having a refer- Assembly referendums that occurred in 2005 and 2008, endum. Te knowledge, at least in my circles, was virtually there were maps provided so people could make an nil. I would ask people what they thought about proportional informed choice of whether or not they actually wanted their representation. Te varying degrees of responses I would get riding to look like that. We have no maps. We don’t know would be somewhere around: “Oh well, that’s pretty good, how big the ridings are, but we know they’re going to be because everybody’s vote counts.” Ten I would talk a little bigger, way bigger. And what are the boundaries? We don’t bit further about what that actually meant, and they would know the boundaries. say: “Oh well, maybe it’s a percentage of the votes that a party If I was lucky enough, for instance, to get elected in the got in the election that would be the percentage of MLAs riding of the North Shore — and we already know that the that we actually got elected.” Tat is true, but that’s where the ridings will be bigger — would that be all of North Van, all details actually stop. of the North Shore or even include Sea to Sky? I don’t know. Fast-forward to today. Te latest Angus Reid poll says it’s Anyway, say I was elected — or one of the ones that was Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5801 lucky to be elected, the 60 percent. Ten who would be not that project would actually be happening if we were appointed, based on the percentage of votes from the Greens, under PR. the NDP, other parties? We know that there are at least 21 I also worked very diligently with my North Shore B.C. other parties that are already registered in British Columbia. Liberal colleagues to bring forward the HOpe Centre, the Te Communist Party has been mentioned before. What do state-of-the-art mental health and addictions facility on the they have to get? Five percent to be absolutely appointed? Lions Gate Hospital campus. I worked with the Doctors of Well, they could be appointed anywhere. Could they be British Columbia, psychiatrists, Vancouver Coastal Health appointed on the North Shore? Maybe. How do we know? and the Lions Gate Hospital Foundation to bring the third Te other issue is that it’s unknown what classifcation foor Carlile Centre to fruition for children and youth men- a community would be, urban or rural. You’d think that tal health on the North Shore. I worked on that, and I feel we kind of know what urban or rural is, but actually, we very proud that I was able to bring that forward. don’t, because some communities are both. Tis is import- I worked with the Ministers of Health and Children and ant, because one of the PR choices is called rural-urban pro- Families to bring forward Foundry, the one-stop shop men- portional. tal health facilities — 11 of them provincewide but one of [8:10 p.m.] them in North Van. I’m very proud of that. I’m very commit- How can people vote for this system if we don’t even know ted to my riding. Obviously, I’m committed to mental health who’s rural and who’s urban? In fact, two-thirds of the ballot issues. I fought for that, and I got that. My constituents are choices on the ballot have never been used anywhere in the happy about that, because they know I’m committed to the world, so voting for them would truly be a leap of faith, as North Shore, know I’m committed to North Vancouver and the Premier has been quoted as saying at the UBCM conven- know I’m committed to North Vancouver–Seymour, and I tion a couple of months ago. will continue to fght for their issues. Tere’s dual-member proportional, mixed-member pro- Am I going to have to fght against an appointed, para- portional, rural-urban proportional. I checked out the chuted candidate that just happens to be appointed from notes from the nobcprorep.ca people. I did look at what region X? Is that MLA that’s appointed going to care about these diferent systems were, and I highlighted what’s com- trafc on the foot of the Cut in North Van when they’re mon about them. from somewhere else? No, because they’re not going to be Common about them all is: party lists, larger ridings and accountable to the electorate. Tey don’t actually care. mathematical formulas to get that MLA appointed to Tey’re accountable to their party bosses because it was their whatever that riding is. Tere are so many unknowns that I party bosses that appointed them. don’t know how people can possibly vote and be informed. I am very concerned that this is the type of situation I ofen quote my dad. “Tere’s only one thing worse than that we would get if the proportional representation system not voting. It’s voting, and you don’t know who you’re vot- is approved. One of the other things about being account- ing for.” Tis is what this whole referendum is all about. able…. If people decide no, they don’t want Jane anymore, We’re all supposed to be taking a leap of faith, trusting the then that’s fne. Tey can boot me out. But if PR systems people in the back rooms afer the election to make the come into play, as my colleague here mentioned just before right decision and tell us what’s going on. I don’t think me, it’s very, very difcult to get rid of people in PR systems. that’s going to happen. [8:15 p.m.] Other things that the proponents of proportional repres- Even if you do get rid of them, they come back again in entation say…. It would force MLAs to work together. Would another form, as an appointed MLA. Tat’s kind of what it? I’m very proud of my record, working for the residents happened in New Zealand. Te deputy leader is somebody of North Van–Seymour and North Vancouver and the North that lost his actual election in his riding, but because he was Shore, for that matter. Te Highway 1 interchange project, party leader, the party bosses — i.e., him — appointed him which is currently underway at the foot of the Cut and which to another riding so that he could represent that riding, even I talk about a lot in the House, took me eight years to work though it wasn’t his riding to begin with. But who cares? He on with four diferent councils, two diferent federal govern- just got appointed no matter what, and now he’s the deputy ments and three diferent MPs. Tere was a frst phase and leader, because the leader herself was on maternity leave. a second phase, and now we’ve got probably the frst phase Tat doesn’t seem right. In PR, even losers can win. that will almost be fnished by the end of this year. Tere are Let’s look at what happened last weekend in the municipal four phases and three interchanges. It’s a huge project. It’s election. Many elected ofcials did actually get booted out. $198 million. Some people are very shocked about that. Tat’s pretty clear. I was fghting for that since I was frst elected in 2009. Tey were elected, or not, under frst-past-the-post. It’s Tere was only one person consistently, for eight years, fght- pretty clear. You get the majority of votes, and you get in — ing for this project, and that was me, because the other levels or you don’t. of government changed around. Can you imagine if I was Let’s talk about the argument of what the people who are competing for interest with another MLA from somewhere proponents of proportional representation say about power. else, who lived somewhere else? I can’t imagine whether or I keep hearing this. Tey say: “You can become a govern- 5802 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018

ment with 100 percent of the power with 40 percent of the record turnout in North Vancouver, up 12 percent since the votes.” Well, that’s not exactly true. In our case, in govern- last election. A booming 36 percent of the eligible voters in ment, we actually worked with the opposition parties — the the district of North Vancouver actually voted. NDP in particular and the Greens in particular — to bring [8:20 p.m.] forward the work on sexual harassment policies in post-sec- Of all those people, 60 percent voted for Mike. I’m con- ondary education, as well as to include transgendered per- gratulating him. But in actual fact, 59 percent of 36 percent is sons in the human rights code. 21 percent. So of the eligible voters, 21 percent of the people We worked with them for that. Tere are individuals that actually voted for Mike. are part of those parties and that helped shape that legisla- Te same thing happened in the city, although Linda tion. So depending on who the government is, that does hap- didn’t get as many of the votes. She got 29 percent of the pen, but I can tell you that this coalition of the NDP and the votes. Say 30 percent of the people actually voted. Tat Greens today is not working with us about anything. We’ve means 9 percent of the eligible voters actually voted for brought forward amendments on many bills, and we’ve been Linda. But that’s just the way it is. voted down consistently, 100 percent. I don’t know how that I’m supporting Mike. I’m supporting the results in the dis- would change under a PR system. It really depends on who’s trict of North Vancouver. I’m supporting Linda. I’m support- who in the zoo about whether or not there’s any cooperation, ing the results in the city of North Vancouver. Tat’s just the because they don’t have to. way it is. You can’t accept those results and then not accept Let’s go back to the municipal election and the numbers. the provincial results that are using exactly the same frst- I’ll say at the start that I’m not arguing with the results. I just past-the-post system. want to congratulate all of the winners for winning but also Te thing about proportional representation systems is to congratulate all the people that didn’t get elected. that they’re all about the parties. Tey’re not about the I know that it takes a special kind of person to put their people. name on a ballot, run for election and have to deal with some When I look at a ballot, like I did in the municipal election of the crap that these people have gone through just to run last weekend, I pick who I want. I picked, in the district of in an election, let alone get elected. I put up my hat for these North Vancouver, one mayor, six councillors and four school people that put their names on the ballot. Congratulations trustees. I know that one of the mayors, six of those council- to all of the people that got elected. Tey’re living with the lors and four of the school trustees that were on the ballot are results, no matter how joyous it is or how painful it is, and actually going to get elected. I know that. It’s pretty simple everyone understands the rule: the one that got the most and clear. votes is the one that wins. In proportional representation, you have no idea who’s Let’s talk about a couple of examples. I like to talk about going to end up being your representative. You might get Vancouver, because this was a predictable result, actually. some that you elected or one. Te rest of them will be We’re not really surprised that the MP from Burnaby, appointed, and you have no control over that. Te voters Kennedy Stewart, got elected as the mayor in Vancouver, but don’t get that choice. It’s the parties that make that choice. here’s the thing: he actually got elected with 29 percent of PR systems are party-centred, whereas frst-past-the-post, the votes. If you assume — I think this is basically right, and our current system, is people-centred. I prefer to vote for or you can question my math, but you’ll get the gist — that against my representative, and that’s why I’m supporting to 40 percent of people actually vote in a municipal election, keep our current system, frst-past-the-post. that means that Kennedy Stewart became the mayor of Van- I really, really hope that the Premier will fnally agree on couver with 11 percent of eligible voters voting for him, but a date so that we can actually hear what he has to say in a everybody on the other side is ecstatic about that. debate, a publicized debate, on television, with our Leader of Well, that’s frst-past-the-post. You can’t be happy with the Opposition and see how they do. that result and then complain, provincially, that somebody with 40 percent of the vote, for instance, got elected. Let’s Deputy Speaker: Te member for Surrey–Green Timbers look at it a little bit closer to home, in North Van. We had on the hoist amendment. somebody in the district of North Vancouver, Mike Little, who, out of more than 13,000 votes, got almost 60 percent R. Singh: Tank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s my honour to speak of the votes. Tat guy nailed it; he did really, really well. He on this amendment. We have an historic opportunity to absolutely…. make a change that could have a profound and positive impact on local politics. I’m very excited that we might lead Interjections. the way for the rest of the country. We have the opportunity to change our voting system so that every vote is counted. Deputy Speaker: Members. I think this is really good for our system, for our demo- cracy. I meet so many people, especially from the younger J. Tornthwaite: He absolutely deserved to win. He got, population, who are not interested in voting. Te reason for as I said, 60 percent of the votes, and I’m told that it was a that is that a lot of times they have voted, and their repres- Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5803 entative has not been elected. Tere is a kind of disappoint- on by the people of British Columbia in the not-too-distant ment and disillusionment in our young people, because they future. Many people have already received their ballot. My think that somehow they are not part of the system. phone has been ringing all day, saying to me: “I don’t under- With proportional representation, every vote gets some stand. I’ve got this package. I’ve got this explanation. It representation. I think this is really good — to engage more explains it as clear as mud. What do I do? How do I fgure people in our democracy, which is very, very important. this out?” Also, we know about the…. We have a frst-past-the-post Tis is one of the most confusing pieces of a referendum system, and we know how this works. Te party which gets that has ever been sent out to the people of British Columbia only 25 percent of the vote, or 40 percent of the vote, can get — a great job by the opposition on confusing the voters of 100 percent of the power, and they can just do whatever they this province. want. A lot of times it happens — and we have had examples I just listened to my colleague across the way talk about — that they stop listening to people. Tey stop listening to other governments in Canada that have just been elected — what is really happening around them. one in Ontario that is making decisions and that there is no I can say from experience, coming from the community one there to object. Yeah, there is an opposition. I watch oth- that I’m elected in, from Surrey…. For so many years, the er provinces and countries. I watch their elections too. I don’t issues that mattered to the people of Surrey were neglected. know why, but I do. Te present government in Ontario was We had a government that was not listening, that was not elected on a mandate they presented to the people. Tat’s putting the right kind of funding and that was not paying exactly what he’s doing, exactly what he said he was going to attention to what the residents of that community wanted. do, and he was voted on it. [8:25 p.m.] Because they had 100 percent of the power, they had the Interjections. right to do whatever they wanted. Tat does not mean that they were working for the people, working for the majority D. Barnett: Excuse me. I have the foor. of the people who live in British Columbia. Now, when we have this kind of an opportunity to change Deputy Speaker: Members, the member for Cariboo- the system, I’m very saddened that there’s a lot of fearmon- Chilcotin has the foor. gering happening. I see the examples from the no side that if we bring in proportional representation…. Tere are D. Barnett: Democracy is not percentages. Democracy is examples being given about extremist or very fanatic gov- people. In each riding in British Columbia, we have people ernments getting in. I would like to share with you that we that put their names forward. Tey get a ballot where every- have an example here which just happened. We have a gov- body’s name is on it. Tey go on election day to this voting ernment that was just elected in Ontario, Doug Ford’s gov- place. Tey get their ballot, and they secretly go in and mark ernment, which had just 40 percent of the vote, but they have who they wish to represent them. Tat is democracy. People 100 percent of the power. Tey have just been elected, and in the riding know who they’re voting for. we see how that person is trying to run the province. Tis, here, will, of course, be all about what the opposition I feel that the fearmongering is not…. We shouldn’t asso- likes — its party. People will not matter anymore, the ciate fear with the fearmongering. It is a new system. A lot of voters…. times people don’t know what it is, but we should be giving them the proper facts and telling them what it really is rather Interjection. than scaring them of. [8:30 p.m.] Tat’s what I am looking forward to, and that’s the reason I’m standing with my government on this issue. I’m really D. Barnett: Excuse me. Oh, I’m sorry — the government. excited that now we have the opportunity to change the sys- Tank you. tem that we’ve had for so many years. We are on the verge of And you know, they are the government. Tey have to creating history, and there’s no point in delaying it. We have make decisions. Tey have to start talking like a government waited for it long enough. Now is the time. We’ve had a lot of and quit saying “16 years over here.”Let’s be the government, debate about it. I think it is time to change the system, and if you want to be the government. I’m really looking forward to it. Te government of the day is saying: “Trust me. Just vote the way I want, and I’ll tell you what’s going to happen later.” D. Barnett: I, too, would like to stand today and speak Ten they turn around and say: “Well, if you don’t really like to Bill 40, Electoral Reform Referendum 2018 Amend- it, in four or eight or 12 years from now, we’ll give you anoth- ment Act. I do not support this Electoral Reform Referen- er referendum.” Boy, that sure makes people feel confdent dum 2018 Amendment Act, Bill 40. Tis is very, very con- that afer they got this package in the mail, they should take cerning to myself, to all of my colleagues and to many of it and they should vote for change. Tey don’t know what the my constituents. change is. Te government doesn’t know what the change is Let’s go back to the referendum that is going to be voted and can’t explain it, but: “Just trust me, and it’ll be okay.” 5804 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018

You can think about what kind of mess was made during the government over there. Remember that word “govern- the referendum. It’s what they’ll say four years from now, ment” — okay? — and do it. Govern. eight years from now. “Well, we’ll convert it back again, or Te opposition over there says that this mean group over we’ll think of something else we can confuse you with.” Te here on this side of the table does not listen and does not NDP and the Green partners are essentially asking British care. Columbians to “buy now, and see a return on your invest- [8:35 p.m.] ment later.” Except in this case, there is no buyer’s remorse. Well, believe you me, I have never heard anything from Tis referendum will be legally binding. that side that tells me they are not vindictive. I’m sorry, Mr. With 29 diferent factors that won’t be considered until Speaker. Te people on this side of the table are as compas- afer the referendum, how are voters expected to make an sionate as you ever see people. Te people on that side care educated choice when they aren’t being ofered any of the about their constituents. It’s time that we stopped saying that relevant information? First of all, how many MLAs? Is that people on either side of this House do not care. a difcult question? Apparently. Te size of ridings? Is that Tis side of the House cares more about people than prob- a difcult question? Apparently. What constitutes a rur- ably anybody else in the province of British Columbia. We’ve al riding or an urban riding? Is that a difcult question? laughed with our constituents, we’ve cried with our constitu- Apparently. ents, and we will continue to do that. Our job is to represent Whether we use the closed or open list or even whether our constituents, not a party. we use the list at all. Will your MLA be appointed? Will your I’ve been through some devastating times in my riding MLA be elected? Why do we not have clean, concise, clear over the last few years — many, many devastating times. answers? Let’s go back in history. We had a lot of history last night Interjections. by a lot of good speakers, proud of the democratic system in Canada and in British Columbia, and we’ve had this dis- Deputy Speaker: Members. Members, we are discussing cussion for days. Why do you want to change that system? the hoist amendment — why this should or should not be…. It is quite clear. Quite clear. Tose in power want to make sure they stay in power. Tey’ve come to the conclusion that D. Barnett: Yes, Mr. Speaker. We are discussing Bill 40, power is more important than people. the Electoral Reform Referendum 2018 Amendment Act. I’ve been in my riding for over 50 years, and I’ve had the Tank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate that. privilege of serving in public ofce for almost 30 years — 17 As I was saying, I’ve been through many devastating times years as the mayor of a local community. I’ve sat on region- in my riding, as have many of my colleagues on both sides of al districts, hospital districts, social development commit- the House. We’ve been through two of the worst wildfre sea- tees, watershed committees — committees till committees sons in the province of British Columbia. Many of us MLAs, wouldn’t stop coming. I have worked with constituents for if it wasn’t for the fact that we know our ridings…. We know all these times. To me, people are the most important people our constituents. Tey know who represents them. We got to there are in British Columbia. It’s called people, and people help them. We got to visit them. We got to take them food in my constituency, whom I represent. and clothes, travel with them and care about them. When people in my constituency come to me, I don’t look If somebody could tell me how somebody who isn’t even at them and say: “Did you vote Green, purple, pink, Liberal, elected but is appointed by some party because they want NDP?” Tey’re all people, and you treat each person’s issue power, not people passion, could say: “We’re going to the same. You treat them with respect and compassion. appoint an MLA for the Cariboo-Chilcotin or for the Te opposition over there says this mean group over Nechako Lakes….”How are these people even going to know here…. who’s there, what their passion is, what their concerns are? How are they going to get from downtown Surrey to the Interjection. Nechako Lakes in a day? Tey won’t get there in three days with the way things are in this province at some times of the D. Barnett: Pardon me. Well, you’ve got to start acting year and how we have to travel and how we have to cope. like government, and then I’d say it. Te opposition over If you live in rural British Columbia, you will be totally there says that this mean group on this side of the table forgotten because proportional representation…. Maybe the does not listen. government can convince me diferently. “Proportional” means numbers, not geography but numbers and numbers Interjection. of people. Tat is what this government is all about. “We’re going to get control of power like we have now. You people Deputy Speaker: Member. over there, in rural British Columbia: ‘Figure it out yourself.’” With the help of their neighbours, we hope, because rural D. Barnett: Excuse me. Te opposition over there…. Or British Columbia is urban neighbours…. We are hoping that this particular bill on the foor — both the referendum act Monday, October 22, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5805 and then the referendum that’s out there with the people ligent people, each and every one of them. You can’t bufalo who can’t fgure out what it’s about — will be put to rest. them. You can try. I know the government is hoping that it’ll Tere is no threshold. We’ve had two referendums, and work. I think that the government, should it work, should go they both failed. Tey were put together by people, not by out and talk to every single person that voted and ask them one minister’s ofce with the approval of a cabinet. I don’t what they voted for. I would like to see the results. It would even know if the cabinet approved it. It was a people referen- make me feel very, very good to see the results. dum, with a threshold; 60 percent of the population in their It’s interesting that the government says they collaborate, ridings had to get out and vote. Tat is democracy — not 2 and they work together with everyone. We put all kinds of percent, 3 percent, 4 percent or 5 percent. I don’t understand private members’ bills up. We put all kinds of amendments that the government can’t fgure out the word “democracy.” up. Never seen anybody pass one yet. I’ve been here for 11 We just had local elections, and people are saying that years. Tink back. Tink. Tink. not that many went to vote. Tat’s what democracy is. It’s a choice. It’s freedom of speech, freedom of movement, free- Interjections. dom to vote, freedom to respect each other, freedom of religion. D. Barnett: You didn’t vote with us even when you [8:40 p.m.] were…. We were in government. You could vote with us too. All of a sudden now we want to go into something that says: “Well, we’re going to appoint who looks afer you. We Interjections. don’t care what you say.” Tis is not democracy. It’s totally not democracy. I really and truly hope and wish that the D. Barnett: Yes, we have. government of the day would pause, just take a pause for a few months and really think about what they’re doing to the Interjections. province of British Columbia. Te only hope is that when it comes back afer this referendum, and 20 percent or 2 per- Deputy Speaker: Members. Members, let’s get back to the cent or 30 percent are the only ones that vote, they’ll do like hoist motion. another province did back east and say: “You know what? We’re a government that’s going to listen to the people, so D. Barnett: Te government can speak to this bill too. we’re going to park this.” I hope they do. Bill 40, the Electoral Reform Referendum Tey will have a choice, the government, when the refer- 2018 Amendment Act. It’s amazing how people forget very endum comes back. I’m sure that if it isn’t the way they want quickly. But the people of British Columbia do not forget. it…. Tey’re government, and they have a partner who’ll Te people of British Columbia, as I’ve said before, have never throw them out. No matter how many times he stands long, long memories. And from time to time, they’re not and stomps and yells and screams, he will never throw them happy with their government. Tat’s when they vote some- out. Tey’ll probably have another referendum. If you don’t body else in and somebody else out, just like they did last get your own way, just like little kids, you keep nagging. You Saturday. Amazing how many people they voted in and they keep doing it. voted out. Let’s hope not. Let’s hope that everybody in government [8:45 p.m.] comes to their senses in the not-too-distant future. I have Mr. Speaker, noting the hour, I will reserve my place and hope that that will happen. ask for adjournment of the debate.

Interjection. Interjections.

D. Barnett: We have a me-too-er over there too. Deputy Speaker: Members, please take your seats. We Democracy is when people make decisions and send still have time to continue the debate. people to this House by vote. Like I’ve said, in rural British Columbia, we have small populations with massive, D. Barnett: Tank you, Mr. Speaker, for giving me extra massive geography. Some of my colleagues in the govern- time this evening. I was trying to give you extra time on your ment have the same. Tey’re not worried about their rid- way, but if you choose…. ings because they know that if proportional representation goes through, because they supported it, whatever party Interjection. they’re making a deal with…. Tey’ll get appointed in their ridings, believe you me. D. Barnett: Exactly. Our constituents sent us here. I It is an honour to be elected, for each and every person in appreciate that coming from the government side. He just this House, and you’re elected in a democratic process. Tis admitted that he got voted in by his constituents on a ballot. particular system that’s out there is so confusing to people. I can’t believe it. People in British Columbia are very intel- Interjections. 5806 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 22, 2018

Deputy Speaker: Members, I know it’s getting late, but I’ve listened to the government of the day. I’ve listened to all let’s get to the business: the hoist motion. kinds of diferent organizations. Our hands are tied by this Please continue. tight…. I don’t know what you call it that the minister, in his ofce, put together, which says you can’t speak about this. D. Barnett: Tank you, Mr. Speaker. Let’s get back to the You can’t speak about it. You can spend this much money. motion on the foor. We’re discussing the second reading You’ve got to do this. You’ve got to do that. Even that is so of Bill 40, Electoral Reform Referendum 2018 Amendment confusing that most of the public don’t understand it. I guess Act. you do if you make the rules but don’t share with the rest of Now, I do not support this. We haven’t got through a refer- the world what the real rules are. endum that the government put out there to the public, who We are talking about Bill 40, Electoral Reform Referen- don’t understand what it’s about. Now we’ve got an amend- dum 2018 Amendment Act. ment on the foor before a referendum is even passed. So It’s a sad day when the people of British Columbia may how do you really and truly expect the constituents, the cit- vote for something that they really and truly don’t under- izens of the great province of British Columbia, to under- stand. Or because they don’t understand it, they will not stand an amendment before a referendum is even passed? vote. Tis is a world of technology we live in, and the govern- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] ment has said they are the technology experts. So how are we voting? Snail mail. One day we’re tech experts. Te next day What is wrong with the actual referendum, I ask the gov- we’re snail mail experts. ernment, if they have no faith in the referendum, that they I do not support Bill 40, Electoral Reform Referendum have to put an amendment on the foor to deal with the frst 2018 Amendment Act. I will not be voting for this. referendum before the public has an opportunity to go to the polls and vote for it? D. Barnett moved adjournment of debate. Te opposition says: “Don’t worry. Trust me.” You know, when they…. Motion approved.

Interjection. Hon. S. Robinson moved adjournment of the House.

D. Barnett: Te government. I’m sorry. Te government Motion approved. says: “Trust me.” Before the last election, or during the election, the now Mr. Speaker: Tis House stands adjourned until 10 a.m. Premier of British Columbia said: “We will have a referen- tomorrow morning. dum. It will be a yes or a no vote.” Well, guess what, folks. It’s not yes or no. It’s frst-past-the-post or…. Who knows what Te House adjourned at 8:50 p.m. the others mean? I truly, truly have been trying to understand it. I’ve read it. Hansard Reporting Services

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