E-mails to a Brahmachary

What is the cause of the Living entities entanglement and strife in this world? Is it ignorance or his voluntary unwillingness to serve Supreme Lord Sri Krsna? Is it possible Sector 8-B Sector for the soul being spiritual in Nature to have material desires? A murderer kills sleeping beggars on the street and says that it was by the divine inspiration of Providence? Can Community Hall Community he in one sense be right? Does have anything in common with Sanatana Dharma These issues are being dealt with in the following debate. To find out more.

Read on……… operative Housing Society Housing operative CBD Belapur Navi Navi Belapur CBD -

What follows is a philosophical discussion between Akincana Krsna Dasa (Akd) and Bhushan Kotnis a student practicing the Krsna Consciousness philosophy in the U.S.A. Kotnis challenges the Gita philosophy presented in the website http://cbdvashiiskcon.blogspot.com .

Kalpatararu Co Kalpatararu Please don't confuse between the Names Baladeva Vidya Bhushan (Gaudiya Vaishnava Acarya) and the student Bhushan Kotnis. They are two different personalities altogether.

Akd's replies are colored. When two colors appear in the same mail they are his quotes from previous mails quoted by Bhushan Kotnis. Hare Krsna.

**********Akd writes to Bhushan************* Hope this mail finds you in the best of health and K.C. Long time no communication S o I thought I will send you this link. - http://cbdvashiiskcon.blogspot.com . It is of the program I am taking on the B.G systematically verse by verse.

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Hare Krsna and all the best. Akincana Krsna Dasa

*********** Akd's replies to Bhushan Kotnis' mail in Red*********** Dear Akincana Prabhu,

Thank you for your email, I am pleased to hear about the program you are conducting at Vashi. In NYC we also have a Gita class divided into three levels conducted by Rasanath Prabhu and his team. I would like to share something about how they share the Gita for Americans.

It all started when Rasanath Prabhu was in Cornell doing his MBA. He was givin g Gita classes and one time he gave As it Is to a female student. Some days later she returned the Gita with a bitter mail because she couldn’t digest the some of the purports by Srila Prabhupada on women. So he started thinking how to cultur ally translate the message in this post modern era especially in USA.

In the Gita Sutras they have formed an innovative approach. They use examples from western philosophers Freud, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche etc also lot of stuff from NY Times, experiences in Business Schools, corporate world, documentaries, and movies.

Hare Krsna. Thank Krsna that in I don't have to read these philosophies to preach. Most of the Indians appreciate the talk if we directly speak from the Gita and the . They in fact find it very interesting. This is one of the advantages for a preacher in India. He has the luxury to dive deep into the Vedic literatures directly and can also get a huge audience to come and listen to you.

The western world was shaped by t hese western thinkers and they communicate to the students how the thoughts in Bhagavad Gita were also echoed by these personalities. Rasanath Prabhu also writes articles for the Huffington Post, I found them interesting

I checked the website. Nice design and content. Fit for the western audience. In fact it hardly looks like a Hare Krsna or any other typical religious website. Real hard work.

Also one of the significant aspects in his classes his dissecting the human psyche, what are our motivations, why do we do things the way we do. This is something everybody can relate to. The last Bhagavatham class we discussed about how we have this "hero" nature and need for validation ingrained in all of us.

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Here we analyze the psyche of Arjuna from the Bhagavad Gita directly from the Acaryas commentaries. The different reasons Arjuna gives for not fighting etc. It makes just excellent preaching material.

However the most important part of his classes is vulnerability. I.e making everything personal.

This is very important. Bhakti Caru Maharaj gives the formula to preach. About 60% love, 15% Prasad , 10% , 5% philosophy, and 10% everything else in ISKCON which is responsible to make a devotee. People are hardly philosophical these days. I mean does it take philosophy to engage in drug alcohol and other forms of addictions. Still majority people engage in it unrestrictedly. So it is the experience they are looking for. And a pleasurable one.

Sharing how has Bhakti affected me? Sharing openly the defects in myself and how I am struggling against them. This takes a lot of courage and it’s very powerful. He openly shares his anarthas, his fall downs , his struggles and his victories and thus creates a very open a non judgemental atmosphere where everyone else ca n be open. This is very powerful.

Wow. That really takes courage. Like His Holiness Radhanath has done in his book, the journey home. Narada also tells Vyasa about his fall down from a demigod Gandarva named Upabarana to become a sudra in his past l ife. So this is a bonafide method to preach given in the Srimad Bhagavatham originally initiated by Sage Narada.

…….I read your article on chapters 3 and 4 on activity. I have some comments about the article. From the article it seems that if you do devotional service properly ( i.e with activity) then one will get good material results. Just like the IIT student who topped. You also mentioned some qualifications ( University degree etc) required for being a Brahmachary and thus kind of portrayed that Brahmachary /Spirituality is not some escapism.

In one sense I think spirituality is escapism in the sense that we want to escape from material anxieties, suffering etc. And materialists also want to escape from miseries, but they look externally and find sim ply band aids rather than getting to the root and destroying it once and for all. The spiritualist thinks of the permanent solution while materialists are less intelligent and think of stop gap measures.

So in that particular devotee from his replay abo ut chanting it seems he took chanting as an external solution so that chanting was just some external adjustment for him. And probably he took that due to the mood of passion and things in mode of passion never give good results. The principle of chanting is correct, but he misapplied it. But we also see devotees who applied that principle properly and one of the best examples of this is HG Aindra Prabhu.

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A preacher can argue from both sides. It depends on from which reference point he is discussing. For eg. Arjuna wanted to quit fighting. And there is no denying the historical fact that Krsna engaged him in fighting. He wanted to escape, isn't it? Yes but Krsna also gave him the solution to escape the problems of fighting a war which he so badly wanted to avoid. He told him the process of Bhakti . So this is escapism. Isn't it.

I read an article of (His articles are very profound http://bhakticollective.com/2010/01/09/focus-on-the-essential-and-escape-the-tyranny- of-the-one-thousand-urgent-things/ ) in which he dissected the reason for our business and attachment to activity. We are busy with 10,000 little things just to keep the fear of death away. Restlessness and activity which clouds the intelligence is in the mode of passion and such activity is useless.

In fact to sit in one place and be completely aware/mindful and do nothing is not possible for those in the mode of passion. I quote from one of his (HH SNS) articles.

The French mathematician Blasé Pascal once wrote: “All man´s miseries derive from not being able to sit quietly in a room alone.” Lord Krsna in the B.G and Prahlad Maharaja in the Bhagavatham and S.P refute Blasé Pascal. B.G 3.5 - Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment.

SP Quote: We saw a signboard in a yoga society in Los Angeles that said “You become silent, and you’ll become God.” And here Krsna says that you cannot become silent even for a moment.

Lec BG 3.1–5 Los Angeles 68 5. Prahlad’s prayers to Nrshimhadev – (Mauna vrata or silence is meant for neophytes. S.B 7.9.46) When a child speaks a lot of rubbish. Parents tell them to shut and sit quietly. When he is sober. He is expected to speak and behave the right way.

It’s no t that we should accept or renounce activities, because such thoughts stem from ignorance, the right approach is to have an elevated consciousness while performing an activity. Important is an elevated consciousness and not if I do an activity or I don’t or if I top or I don’t top. Activity/results of an activity may or may not be a correct index of person’s consciousness.

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As I quoted Gita earlier. Activity can never be stopped at any time.

Please let me know your thoughts, I always like my conceptions to be challenged and in this way I can learn more.

Hope you gained from the conversation. Keep in touch. Hare Krsna

Thanks A Lot

Your Servant Bhushan

***Akd replies to Bhushan Kotnis' mail in purple. What appears in Red are his replies from previous mail************ From: Bhushan Kotnis Date: Thursday, July 22, 2010, 7:47 PM

Hare Krishna Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu Thank you so much for your email and the replies. I was thinking about what you said, and was not sure how I should reply, but now I am happy reading your email that you would like to see a reply. I like doing discussions and especially like to challe nge what I/other believe, although I don’t want to hurt anyone feelings in any way, sometimes my lower nature does take better of me and I regret that but it’s an ongoing work to purify myself and will take some time.

I have certain comments on your replies. As far as the western philosophers are concerned some of them are quite deep. Maybe not as much as the Vedic/ scriptures. E specially Soren Kierkegaard the Danish Philosopher also known as founder of existentialism. He was a religious/spiritual person who bluntly and honestly spoke against the corrupt Danish church. He has an entire book on how following the orders of God with intelligent faith is much superior to simply following moral instructions. He uses the story of Abraham and Ishmael from the Bible (God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son Ishmael). I read one of his books where he emphasized subjective reading of scripture s. He emphasized subjectivity rather than objectivity e.g. of objectivity is maybe I have read the Bhagavad Gita thrice, but subjectivity is how much I have realized or am following the Bhagavad Gita.

I would recommend his books. Also I found the Yoga Sutras of very interesting. A devotee from Rutgers University Dr Edwin Bryant, Advaita Prabhu, wrote a brilliant commentary and has included a devotional perspective also. Dhanurdhara Swami used to give lectures on it and has written a nice article on it. When you come to India. May be you can give a talk on these philosophies. I may not have the patience to read.

5 http://bhakticollective.com/2009/08/02/893/ Lord Krsna in the B.G and Prahlad Maharaja in the Bhagavatham and S.P refute Blasé Pascal. B.G 3.5 - Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment.

I don’t think this verse refutes Blasé Pascal. Blasé Pascal simply talks about the evil effects of mode passion due to which there is restlessness an activity. Of course Blasé Pascal doesn’t know anything about activity of the soul. But t he point is the rajo guna activity has to be reduced (mauna can be useful) and satva guna should be increased. As sattva guna increases activity born of mode of passion decreases. This is also practiced by Buddhists whose sole purpose is to calm the mind to awaken wisdom.

Sure. I only read about Pascal in my engineering. Pascal's law: it states that the Pressure applied to an enclosed fluid is transmitted equally in all directions and to all parts of the enclosing vessel……. So I am not an authority on Pascal. But please read on.

Thus rajo guna activity should not be confused with activity of the soul (and it usually is confused). I have my reservations about this point. Could you please quote scriptural reference for this?

The activity of the soul part was quite interesting. I accept that soul is active, but a conditioned soul cannot be active.

I have major reservations about this point too. Could you please quote scriptural reference for this? In fact in the purport of B.G 3.5 S.P says, "It is not a q uestion of embodied life, but it is the nature of the soul to be always active . Without the presence of the spirit soul, the material body cannot move. The body is only a dead vehicle to be worked by the spirit soul, which is always active and cannot stop even for a moment . " So if the rajo guna activity is not the activity of the soul in the conditioned state as you say how the soul is active without serving Krsna. So all activity in the three modes is the activity of the soul conditioned by modes. Check out this verse:B.G 14.5 Material nature consists of three modes—goodness, passion and ignorance. When the eternal living entity comes in contact with nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, he becomes conditioned by these modes. PURPORT The living entity, because he is transcendental, has nothing to do with this material nature. Still, because he has become conditioned by the material world, he is acting under the spell of the three modes of material nature (Note this) . Because living entities have different kinds of bodies, in terms of the different aspects of nature, they are

6 induced to act ( Note this) according to that nature. This is the cause of the varieties of happiness and distress.

The pure nature of the soul is to serve Lord Krishna, and that is its only activity it can’t do any other activity. Just like when I am convinced that I am a man and hence I should enjoy a women, my gaze naturally goes towards a women, just like that a soul just knows that it is a servant of Krishna and hence it’s very natural for it to serve Lord Krishna in a loving way.

Because of this mysterious glue called ignorance which has no beginning ( but has an end) the soul identifies with the mind and hence the natural activity of the soul is stopped. But we still find that conditioned souls do all kinds of activities, that is due to the rajo guna in the mind, or the fluctuating vrittis.

So when a conditioned soul doing some activity based on false conceptions, how can it be the activity of the soul, it’s the activity of the mind, the soul should be the observer but unfortunately its entangled and thinks it’s the doer and identifies with the activity and the result of the activity. You are misconceiving between the activity of the modes and the soul. Here is a reference from the Gita on the mind and the modes. B.g 14.22-25 The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O son of Päëòu, he who does not hate illumination, attachment and delusion when they are present or long for them when they disappear; who is unwavering and undisturbed thr ough all these reactions of the material qualities, remaining neutral and transcendental, knowing that the modes alone are active(Note this: Illumination attachment and delusion are the activities of the modes. So the soul has the choice to act being influenced by it or without.) ; who is situated in the self and regards alike happiness and distress; who looks upon a lump of earth, a stone and a piece of gold with an equal eye; who is equal toward the desirable and the undesirable; who is steady, situated eq ually well in praise and blame, honor and dishonor; who treats alike both friend and enemy; and who has renounced all material activities—such a person is said to have transcended the modes of nature. So in the process of purification the material temporar y activities must reduce so that the natural activity of the soul may awaken. In the shanta rasa it’s just awakened as the soul is the observer of the awe and grandeur of Lord Krishna's majesty. As the rasa gets more intense the activity of the soul increases in dasya, sakhya etc.

The deep desire for spiritual knowledge certainly comes from the soul e.g. ,( his feelings realizations give a a glimpse of his consciousness) but I don’t know if in the example of the student you gave, what was h is consciousness i.e weather the activity was coming from the mode of passion or goodness( from the soul) or maybe it’s a mixture of both( as you rightly pointed out in the Gita verse).

As you rightly pointed out silence is meant for neophytes and that is true and is needed. I have personal experience when I talk with devotees, or other people my mind becomes

7 disturbed, because of rajo guna. But for me silence and some kind of discipline( the 5 yamas) to calm down the mind and try to be in the mode of go odness is needed, but for one who is already fixed in that such things may not be needed. I still feel silence is not the recommended process in our Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition. Here is what S.P has to say in his purport to S.B 3.27.7. Which may help? "A devotee should not speak needlessly. A serious devotee has no time to speak of nonsense. He is always busy in Kåñëa consciousness. Whenever he speaks, he speaks about Kåñëa. Mauna means "silence." Silence does not mean that one should not speak at all, but that he should not speak of nonsense. He should be very enthusiastic in speaking about Kåñëa." But what I am afraid of is that this concept of activity of the soul is usually misapplied (at least I did). I used to think " I must do some practical activity for Krishna and that is devotional service" and usually what used to happen is after doing that activity my mind used to be agitated. Later by my good fortune I came across some Sacinandana Swami lectures in which he pointed out that the important part is the mind. Devotee means the mind.

Srila Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakura (I can’t remember the exact Sastric quote but I can send you the lecture in which HH SNS quotes this). said that simply doing external activity is like arranging fruits and flowers and other paraphernalia for the yajna and engaging the mind is like lighting fire and offering the ghee. So if the later is not done the yajna is useless. I agree with this. It starts with mana bhava the mind comes first, and as the mind becomes purified activity naturally comes. So devotional service means activity is true but its often misapplied and I guess it is misapplied in the IIT student example because there is no mention about the intent of his activity, the motivation of his activity etc. Simpl y securing excellent grades and offering them to Krishna cannot be called devotional service that maybe called karma kanda or maybe karma mishra Bhakti.

The student i was talking about who secured excellent grades is now a b'cari since five years. W hen he was in college he was spending all his time in preaching and following up the boys for the preaching programs. His name was Kapil before initiation and Revati pati after initiation, and he is today an inspiration of scores of students in IIT Kharagh pur even today. So it is not a misapplication of philosophy. His motivation is pretty clear. He wants to serve Krsna with his academics. All the devotee students in the colleges have a standing order of his holiness Radhanath swami that they have only two business, academics and K.C. They should try their best to do well in academics. Following this instruction was certainly devotional service for him. And of Course Krsna is the ultimate judge. We can at the most judge ourselves. These are some of the thoug hts in my understanding of philosophy. It is nice discussing. Please don't mind. Even munis disagree with each other on philosophical aspects. But devotees are united not by philosophy but devotional service Akincana Krsna Dasa

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Please let me know your thou ghts

Thanks

Your servant

Bhushan

************Akd's replies to Bhushan's mail are in Blue*************** From: Bhushan Kotnis Date: Saturday, July 31, 2010, 7:19 PM

Hare Krishna Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu Thank you so much for your replies. How is your health now? Has the malaria subsided? I guess all these diseases remind us how fickle life is and that too full of suffering, I guess we just have to tolerate it a wait for Lord Krishna's mercy while constantly praying to Him and aspiring to attain the shelter of His lotus feet. Here its summer now but after some months there will be a bitter winter, with freezing cold winds. They have eradicated malaria here so nobody gets sick of malaria but they are powerless to stop the cold winds nor can they stop neither death nor other deadly diseases like depression, cancer, old age etc. I am happy, healthy and strong now but it’s just a matter of time when old age and the most dreaded Time factor or death will catch up with me. We are all in this together. The hope is that the discussion we are having will give us insights and inspire us to transcend all kinds of pain and suffering and take shelter of Shri Krishna and His words, and hence I continue and I thank you and value your association in this very valuable philosophical discussion. Your points are very significant and I completely respect your thoughts on this complex topic; however I would like add some things which may clarify the topic. I think you mentioned a very good point from BG 3.5 and BG 14.5 " which is always active and cannot stop even for a moment " and "he is acting under the spell of the three modes of material nature(Note this)"

I had given it some thought and the reason why I accepted the conclusion that soul does not act is because of the following reason. Honestly speaking ontologically ( nature of reality) I do not exactly understand if the soul is active or not, some verses hint it is active while some say its the observer. BG 13.30 One who can see that all activities are perfo rmed by the body, which is created of material nature, and sees that the self does nothing, actually sees. Purport: This body is made by material nature under the direction of the Super soul , and whatever activities are going on in respect to one's body a re not his doing. Whatever one is supposed to do, either for happiness or for distress, one is forced to do because of the

9 bodily constitution. The self, however, is outside all these bodily activities. This body is given according to one's past desires. T o fulfill desires, one is given the body, with which he acts accordingly. Practically speaking, the body is a machine, designed by the Supreme Lord, to fulfill desires. Because of desires, one is put into difficult circumstances to suffer or to enjoy. This transcendental vision of the living entity, when developed, makes one separate from bodily activities. One who has such a vision is an actual seer.

Hare Krsna , In some places the soul is said to be the doer and in other places the super soul is said to be the doer. This is a fact. Why is it done like that. In some place the soul is said to be the doer so that the soul takes responsibilities for his actions in this world and doesn't put the blame on the Material nature or God... Like there was this murdere r whose name was Raman Raghava? He used to kill the beggars on the street. When he was caught he simply said that "I was not the doer. The soul does nothing. Why do you arrest me? The Super soul is the doer." So you see this philosophy that the soul is not the doer is a very dangerous philosophy indeed, and can be misapplied. Then one may ask why it is mentioned in the scriptures in that way. It is mentioned so that the soul does not become proud of his accomplishments in this world. B.G 18.14 The place of action [the body], the performer, the various senses, the many different kinds of endeavor, and ultimately the Super soul—these are the five factors of action. PURPORT The word adhishthanam refers to the body. The soul within the body is acting to bring ab out the results of activity and is therefore known as kartä, "the doer." That the soul is the knower and the doer is stated in the çruti. Eña hi drañöä srañöä (Praçna Upaniñad 4.9). It is also confirmed in the Vedanta by the verses jïo 'ta eva (2.3.1 8) and kartä çästrärthavattvät (2.3.33). The instruments of action are the senses, and by the senses the soul acts in various ways. For each and every action there is a different endeavor. But all one's activities depend on the will of the Super soul, who is seated within the heart as a friend. The Supreme Lord is the super cause . Under these circumstances, he who is acting in Krsna consciousness under the direction of the Super soul situated within the heart is naturally not bound by any activity. Those in complete Krsna consciousness are not ultimately responsible for their actions. Everything is dependent on the supreme will, the Super soul, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The adhishthanam, or place of action, refers to the entire body, or that whic h is held up by the skeleton. The kartä, the performer, is ultimately the soul, who when absorbed in material consciousness, acts through false ego. The karanam, or instruments, are the parts of the body, the senses. The ceshtha is the overall endeavor of the senses. Daivam, the Super soul , is the ultimate controller over all the other factors. He is the Paramätmä, the Lord of all within the material world. To convince us that we are not the only doers, Krsna stresses that these five factors are the true causes of action, the ultimate “super cause” being the Super soul’s sanction. Srila Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana comments that we are doers—our activities do spring from our own free will—but our endeavor is not the independent cause of actions: If the jiva’s bei ng a doer is under the regulating control of the Supreme Lord, then we

10 have to say that his activity does not proceed from his own will and that he is actually just like a stone or some other inert object. In that case, don’t the injunctions and prohibitions of scripture become useless? The answer is, the jiva receives from the Supreme Lord a body and senses endowed with specific potencies, of which he then becomes the proprietor. Acquiring those potencies, the jiva exerts his free will and assumes control of his body and senses for the purpose of fulfilling karmic endeavors. The Supreme Lord, present within all these coverings, sanctions the jiva’s activity and inspires him to act. In this way there is no contradiction between the Supreme’s control and the jiva’s having his own willpower to act or to refrain from acting

Also in SB 11.11.9 and 11.11.10 11.11.9 An enlightened person who is free from the contamination of material desire does not consider himself to be the performer of bodily activities; rathe r, he knows that in all such activities it is only the senses, born of the modes of nature, that are contacting sense objects born of the same modes of nature.

So the thrust of my argument is that the soul is transcendental and hence it cannot have material desires , but because its identifying with the mind and body, it’s in some kind of dream when it accepts material things as "Mine".

You just said that the soul cannot have material desires then why is it accepting the material things as mine. This is a material desire isn't it? And why is it identifying with the mind and body and is in some kind of dream. That means it is not transcendental . He has been covered over by matter. The statement above is self contradictory.

In many verse material existence is compared to a dream ( however matter is an energy of Krishna and not an imagination as argued by the Advaita Vedantists but imagination is that I am matter and matter is mine.)

Now this is a fact. I agree.

So the conditioned souls due to this dream a re simply acting like robots or like footballs kicked by the modes which arise due to the samskaras and vasanas in the mind. But who has caused the samskaras and vasanas in his mind for him. He himself. And thus he is the doer. This has to be understood. And he should take responsibility for his position. By spiritual practice the dream fades away the soul understands itself and Krishna and then true desire to serve Krishna rises and that I term as activity of the soul.

You just said that the soul is not active. Then how can he even perform spiritual practices to get out of the illusion. Again this is self contradictory. He can never come out of illusion. Perpetual illusion is the result.

You quoted that soul is always active ( that may be ontologically true) but I cannot

11 accept it as activity of the soul, that’s activity of the mind or the modes. Material desire can never be part of the soul,

If material desire is not the part of the soul then where is the desire springing from? From dead matter. That is impossible. if it is then one could never get rid of it and hence no use of practicing spiritual life to reduce material desires. And hence those activities which come from material desires cannot be accepted as activity of the soul and hence the soul is inactive. Also if material desire was a part of the soul then karma ( action/reaction) also would be a part of the soul and would be eternal. Desire has to be purified. It is not necessary that the material desires have to be eternal. Yet it is the cause of us coming to this material world. B.G 7.27 O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, bewildered by dualities arisen from desire and hate. You quoted B.G 14.22-25 about the choice to identify with modes. O son of Päëòu, he who does not hate illumination, attachment and delusion when they are present or long for them when they disappear; who is unwavering and undisturbed through all these reactions of the material qualities, remaining neutral and transcende ntal, knowing that the modes alone are active The reason why the liberated person is not affected by it is because he can exactly see what they are ( but seeing is also an activity isn't it) , that he is completely different from them and hence is not affect ed by them. Just like a movie, one doesn’t take the cartoon movie or a dream for real and identifies with it because one knows what it is. It’s not a matter of choice it’s a matter of realized knowledge.

Regarding silence, I agree with you but still as a conditioned soul I should always be careful not to talk frivolously. (But you just said that the conditioned soul is inactive. Then where is the question of control. It is just the modes isn't it?) SB 11.16.42 : Therefore, control your speaking, subdue the mind, conquer the life air, regulate the senses and through purified intelligence bring your rational faculties under control. In this way you will never again fall onto the path of material existence. SB 11.16.43 : A transcendentalist who does not completely control his words and mind by superior intelligence will find that his spiritual vows, austerities and charity flow away just as water flows out of an unbaked clay pot. SB 11.16.44 : Being surrendered to Me, one should control the speech, mind and life air, and then through loving devotional intelligence one will compl etely fulfill the mission of life. If silence helps in absorbing mind in Lord Krishna then it should be accepted.

Regarding the example, I am very pleased to hear that the student is now a brahmachary and is an inspiration for devotees. But Academic succ ess and other objective measurable things cannot be taken as index/measure of spirituality. The reason why I try to discriminate is not to judge and disparage and get some kind of joy that I am better(

12 although that sometimes subtly happens due to my lower nature) but to understand what is genuinely spiritual, because if I accept something which isn’t spiritual as genuinely spiritual then I will be baffled. That is true for myself also and outside of me also, there many things within me, what I do etc which are not spiritual although I cannot overcome them, but still I need to know that they are undesirable. Likewise what is outside of me, like the media advertisements for sense gratification etc I need to know if its spiritual or not. Like that devotees als o, which one is a neophyte, intermediate and advanced. Although to do this is most difficult and often I make mistakes, it needs to be done. You mentioned the instruction of HH Radhanath Swami Maharaj, of doing academics and KC. As per my understandi ng it means doing ones duty for pleasing Krishna. Out of that duty one may or may not get the desired result, one should continue to do the duty. But the same activity of studying and preaching can also be done for sense gratification. So activity itself cannot be an index. So as you said we cannot determine( or maybe one can if one is advanced), only Krishna knows, that is absolutly correct. So in the article it may come off that if one gets good grades and also preaches then it is KC, however that may n ot always be true(And not always false too). However one may get not so good grades, who may not preach but still His mind maybe absorbed in Krishna and that person may perhaps be good in some other activity which may not be so much socially respected. Both the cases are observed, one who worships Lord becomes endowed with all kinds of skills, intelligence, fame, good qualities, success and also one who worships Lord Vishnu finds that all materially desirable things are taken away (like the Avanti Brahmana ) and such people are looked down as useless people by the general society although they are most advanced. (I guess the second case is rare). Yes consciousness behind the activity is the most important thing which determines whether the activity is spiritual or not.

So in conclusion the soul being active is proven in the purport of 18.14 of the Gita. It is very clearly presented by S.P and Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana . Thank you once again. Please don't be offended by my arguments. Best wishes Akincana Krsna Dasa

These are some of the thoughts in my understanding of philosophy. It is nice discussing. Please don't mind. Even munis disagree with each other on philosophical aspects. But devotees are united not by philosophy but devotional service

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. Brahmana means independently thoughtful, that’s has to be there. Every one of us has a different nature and hence there will be philosophical differences and that’s beautiful. If everyone tries to have same understanding artificially that will lead to some kind of depersonalization and self - alienation which is harmful. Discussion in rajo guna is certainly useless where ones only motivation is to win and if lost then one becomes bitter.

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I think the perfection in a rela tionship would be that even if there are 1000 differences of opinion, 1000s of arguments, but yet due to the goodness and purity of the heart each one feels extremely grateful to each other and is concerned over others well being over oneself in spite of a ll these differences. That is also a sign of respect that one respects others and their opinion. Yes devotees are certainly united in devotional service, I am extremely happy to hear that from you.

In the end I would recommend some books I went through: 1. BhaktiSiddhanta Vaibhava 2. by Bhurijana Prabhu

Thank You So much.

Take care of your health

Your servant

Bhushan

********Akd's replies in Red********** --- On Tue, 8/10/10, Bhushan Kotnis wrote:

Date: Tuesday, August 10, 2010, 12:13 AM

Hare Krishna Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisance

Thank you for your email. I am sorry I couldn’t reply sooner as I was a little busy. I appreciate your replies but somehow your replies somehow don’t make any sense to me . In some place I agree with you but in some places I don’t.

"Hare Krsna , In some places the soul is said to be the doer and in other places the super soul is said to be the doer. This is a fact. Why is it done like that. In some place the soul is said to be the doer so that the soul takes responsibilities for his actions in this world and doesn't put the blame on the Material nature or God... Like there was this murderer whose name was Raman Raghava? He used to kill the beggars on the street. When he wa s caught he simply said that "I was not the doer. The soul does nothing. Why do you arrest me? The Super soul is the doer." So you see this philosophy that the soul is not the doer is a very dangerous philosophy indeed, and can be misapplied. Then one may ask why it is mentioned in the scriptures in that way. It is mentioned so that the soul does not become proud of his accomplishments in this world."

Materialistic people or people in mode of passion/ignorance do not find any value in

14 spiritual life and he nce they put blame on God or nature. But this is because they are in ignorance and are simply dreaming. Robbers and thieves by their very nature are in mode of passion and ignorance and they use their intelligence to rationalize anything (even killing a pe rson) and you have given a very good example of that. Any philosophy can be misapplied but that does not make the philosophy dangerous.

In this example Raman Raghava has not misapplied the 'soul is not the doer' philosophy. He applied it correctly. But wh at i am stating is that this philosophy is not a Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy. I simply disagree on the basis of the Baladeva Vidyabhushana's explicit quotes i have stated on the subject.

For a fanatic KC philosophy is also dangerous. So if your argument is accepted that if a philosophy is dangerous we should not accept it then no one should practice any religion and people do think like that especially here in USA. Some of they are so burnt by Catholicism that they simply say it’s such a dangerous philos ophy that it should be thrown away. Religion causes wars so do away with religion. Such mentality is also found in some ritviks; some people had some fall down, so they conclude that the philosophy of disciple parampara is very dangerous and hence should get rid of it.

But I cannot accept such things. If someone misapplies such a philosophy it’s their problem, no need to change the philosophy.

Again I state, that the 'Soul is not the doer is not our Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy.

Regarding the jiva and the free will, it’s clearly explained by Lord Krishna in the Uddhava Gita that the soul is perfectly pure and transcendental. SB 11.11.1 : The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Uddhava , due to the influence of the material modes of nature, which are under My control, the living entity is sometimes designated as conditioned and sometimes as liberated. In fact, however, th e soul is never really bound up or liberated, and since I am the supreme Lord of māyā , which is the cause of the modes of nature, I also am never to be considered liberated or in bondage. Also SB 11.11.2 : Just as a dream is merely a creation of one's intelligence but has n o actual substance, similarly, material lamentation, illusion, happiness, distress and the acceptance of the material body under the influence of mayā are all creations of My illusory energy. In other words, material existence has no essential reality.

But then why do conditioned souls suffer? The answer is given by Lord Shri Krishna SB 11.11.4 : O most intelligent Uddhava , the living entity, called jīva , is part and parcel of Me, but due to ignorance he has been suffering in material bondage since time immemorial. By knowledge, however, he can be liberated.

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It is that due to ignorance that I am suffering and I have to come to realized knowledge (sambandha jnyana) and that will free me from suffering.

Well, what is the point you are trying to make? The above verses, if you read the purport carefully only proves that the 'soul is the doer' and is itself the cause of his imagination of being bound up. The Lord doesn't enforce this imagination.

"The answer is, the jiva receives from the Supreme Lord a body and senses endowed with specific potencies, of which he then becomes the proprietor. Acquiring those potencies, the jiva exerts his free will and assumes control of his body and senses for the purpose of fulfilling karmic endeavors. The Supreme Lord, present within all these coverings, sanctions the jiva’s activity and inspires him to act. In this way there is no contradiction between the Supreme’s control and the jiva’s having his own willpower to act or to refrain from acting"

I disagree that the soul has some potencies and it willingly enjoys sense gratification.

Hello Bhushan. This is a direct quote from Baladeva Vidyabhushana’s commentary as quoted by Bhurijana Pr in his book 'Surrender unto me'. If you disagree with the Acaryas , there is no conclusion we can ever reach. Then your discussion is based simply on logic. And Logic can always be cut with higher forms of logic. But the tattva can never be understood. So if you disagree with the reference of the Gaudiya Acaryas I don't have much to say. One is free to subscribe to one's own philosophy. Just that one should not choose to call his philosophy Gaudiya Vaishnava. Assuming that you respe ct the authority of the Acaryas I continue. The soul is unchangeable (fundamental axiom of Vedanta ) and hence inside the soul if there is a tendency to enjoy sense gratification then it can never be removed. Well if that is what you think. i am quoting th is reference again directly from the published version of Baladeva Vidya Bhushan’s book Gita Bhushan. ****** 14. These five factors are the body, the false ego, the senses of various types; the life airs with various functions, and the super soul.

This verse enumerates the five causes. That which is ruled (adhiñöhéyate) by the jiva is called the adhiñöhänam . This indicated the body. The doer (kartä) is the jiva . The çrutis state that the jiva is the knower and doer, in statements such as eña hi drañöä srañöä : he is the seer and doer. (Praçna Upaniñad 4.9) The author of the Vedanta also says jïo’ ta eva : the jiva is the knower (Vedanta Sutra 2.3.18); kartä çästrärthavattvät : he alone is the agent, not prakåti, because this gives the scriptures a use. [1] (Vedanta Sutra 2.3.31).

Karaëam refers to the senses like the ear, and the mental faculties. They have differing functions (påthag vidham) in accomplishing the actions. Påthag ceñöä refers to the

16 differing functions of various types of präëa. [2]

Daivam refers to the param brahma, worthy of worship by all. He is the fifth element in the accomplishment of action, among the causes of action (atra). This means that the Lord, Hari, the antaryämé is the chief cause. Those who are convinced that the body, senses, präëas and jiva are only assistant causes, and that the Lord is the initiator of action; those people who thus reject the desire for results for themselves and the concept of being the doer-- are consequently not bound by actions. This is the meaning.

“But if the jéva’s actions depend on the Lord, his action becomes mere engagement by the Lord, in fulfillment of the Lord’s goal. Jéva is simply like a piece of wood. The rules and prohibitions of scripture meant for the jéva would then be useless. It wo uld not be possible to initiate action by ones own intelligence, since it is seen that the jiva is simply made to act by the Lord.”

The jiva is the substratum of body, senses and präëas which are given by the Lord, whose powers bestowed by the Lord alone . Being the possessor of these bestowed powers, the jiva rules over his body and senses by his own desires alone, for accomplishing his actions.

The Supreme Lord, situated within all the jiva’s , giving His permission for action to the jiva , sets the actions of the jiva in motion. The jiva by his intelligence can chose to act or not to act. He is not at all forced to act in one particular way by the Lord. This is supported by the author of Vedanta. Parät tat tac chakteù (Vedanta Sutra 2.3.40): his powers come from the Supreme Lord.

“But then at least the liberated jiva should not be the agent, because he no longer has a body, senses and präëas.”

No, that is not so, because the liberated souls have spiritual senses and body, by which to accomplish their desires.

[1] The scriptures are meant for humans, giving them directions for action. If the jiva is not a agent, what is the use of scripture. Scripture is of no use to give directions to prakåöi, if prakåti is the only agent. [2] Ceñöä cannot mean “activity” because activity is the subject which is constituted of the five factors. **** But that’s not true, inside the soul there is only one tendency which is to serve Krishna. But that is inactive or covered and not functional or functional in minute degree and that has to be increased. Jaiva Dharma explains it very clearly about the actual nature called svabhava and acquired nature called naisarga. Because of foreign nature the material activities become prominent. But such acquired nature does not have any real substance, its a result of

17 some dream.

As i argued before that the dream is also a result of activity of the soul influenced by the modes. As you yourself have quoted from the 11th canto if you read the purport carefully it is said 'Although the individual soul is never actually bound to matter, he suffers the reactions of material nature because of false identification ' ( My comment ; Why is the soul suffering if he is not the doer,That means that The soul's suffering is caused by the soul's activi ties) 'and thus the term baddha, or "bound up," may be used to indicate the nature of a living entity's experience within the inferior energy of the Lord. Since baddha describes a false situation, freedom from such a false situation may also be described a s mokña, or liberation. Therefore the terms bondage and liberation are acceptable if one understands that such terms only refer to temporary situations created by illusion and do not refer to the ultimate nature of the living entity.' Another thing is that I could appreciate if you could directly quote Jaiva Dharma. It will make your presentation credible .

However for a conditioned soul it’s very real, if one says I think I am liberated and I become liberated is new age philosophy which I disagree with. One has to practice Bhakti to actually wake up from the dream. This comes to the next question. You just said that the soul is not active. Then how can he even perform spiritual practices to get out of the illusion. Again this is self contradictory. He can never come out of illusion. Perpetual illusion is the result.

The material activities which we see are not due to the soul.

Then as i quoted in the above para, why does the soul have to suffer the result of his material activities. Sounds like mayavada.

When the person starts performing spiritual activities its the activity coming from the soul. The soul is little by little awakening. And as you have rightly pointed out "perpetual illusion is the result" This is true for our four legged brothers a nd sisters and also our two legged brothers and sisters who are no better than the 4 legged ones. The soul is almost sleeping in animals so they cannot do any spiritual practice , but if they contact some powerful personality who can destroy their ignorance by their potency then animals also can do devotional service e.g. Lord in the Forest making wild animals chant Krishna's names. Or the who came in contact with Srila Prabhupada, or why go that far, myself is a good example, I came in touch with Srila Prabhupada books, took prasadam and that helped me do spiritual practice and it continues to help and will continue to help me.

If material desire is not the part of the soul then where is the desire springing from? From dead matter. That is impossible.

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That’s a good question. The natural desire of soul is to serve Krishna but because of ignorance it manifests in different ways.

Now again, I see a play with words. What do you mean that it manifests in different ways. This makes no sense to me.

There are some philosophers who ascribe to the atheistic sankhya philosophy who say that soul is not the doer at all not even in conditioned and not even in liberated state. So they think it’s only the modes which cause activities. And liberation/bondage is just a configuration of the modes. I don’t support this theory, but what I am saying is that for conditioned soul/animals it is true that modes completely drive all actions.

How will you explain the activities on a soul who is aspiring for liberation? He refrains his senses from s.g. He is not serving Krsna. He gets brahmajyoti liberation. Which mode is controlling him? Who is the doer in this case?? Which mode of nature. Well how will you explain the story of Bharat Maharaj who even i n the body of a deer was remembering his mistake he had committed in his past life? S.B 5.8.31: 'Remaining in that asrama, the great King Bharata Mahäräja was now very careful not to fall victim to bad association. Without disclosing his past to anyone, h e remained in that asrama and ate dry leaves only. He was not exactly alone, for he had the association of the Super soul . In this way he waited for death in the body of a deer. Bathing in that holy place, he finally gave up that body.' This indicates that the soul is never completely covered by the modes. There is book which was published by Janananda Pr from the Manor titled 'Animals in Krsna Consciousness'. It is about the animals which showed inclination to hearing Bhagavad katha. Read the B.G 3.38 purp ort to this verse: As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror is covered by dust, or as the embryo is covered by the womb, the living entity is similarly covered by different degrees of this lust.

But as sattva guna increases and rajo/tamo decreases what h appens is that soul starts awakening. Sattva means original or pure so as sattva increases soul starts awakening and liberation is when rajo/tamo are completely destroyed to the point where they cannot bind the jiva then it is called shuddha sattva. Indeed SB 1.2.24. " sattvam yad bramha darsanam" Similarly, passion [rajas] is better than ignorance [tamas], but goodness [ sattva ] is best because by goodness one can come to realize the Absolute Truth.

But then we see Arjuna being angry, isn’t that rajo? Yes it is but it is not binding him, he did not lose mastery over the self by fighting. Or Srila Prabhupada also, he chastised the mayavada/scientists etc so many times, but that was not due to anger which deludes the intelligence. They are jivan muktas.

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These are something I wanted to clarify. Please let me know if you have any thoughts. Thanks a lot for engaging in this nice discussion. Please don’t bear any offence.

In conclusion i would like to say that the statement that 'when the soul acts selfishly it is not the soul acting but the modes, And when the soul serves Krsna then it is the actually the soul acting'. This is not supported by the Sastras and the Acaryas. The soul is always the doer and not the modes, whether conditioned or liberated. The soul has triggered the modes to bear upon him. Hare Krsna. Thanks a lot for the discussion. I hope this discussion is not interfering with your academics. You may reply at your leisure time. No hurry. Wish you all the best with preaching in the west. Hare Krsna. Thanks a lot,

Your Servant

Bhushan

*********Akd's replies in Blue************* Hare Krsna Bhushan, Hope this mail meets you in the best of health and Krsna Consciousness. Tha nks for the mail. My replies are in Blue color font.

Hare Krishna Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu,

Thank you for your email. I was a bit busy so could not reply, but I get time on weekends so here I am writing.

"In this example Raman Raghava has not misa pplied the 'soul is not the doer' philosophy. He applied it correctly. But what i am stating is that this philosophy is not a Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy. I simply disagree on the basis of the Baladeva Vidyabhushana's explicit quotes i have stated on the subject."

Raman Raghava did not apply it correctly because from his actions we can understand that he had no knowledge of the soul, he was not in touch with himself, nor did he see the soul in others. He had no realization of atmatattva and hence he did not apply it

20 correctly and it was just a rationalization.

(That doesn’t really matter at all. When he says he has not committed the murder he is still right according to ‘your’ philosophy that the soul cannot be materially active. So what are you going t o do with him? Release him? You can’t say that you are going to punish him b’cos he that would mean you are applying the scriptural injunctions on him [b’cos material reward and punishment are also scriptural injunctions). And since you don’t ‘exactly’ agree with B.V.Bhusana and Bhurijana pr the Vedic scriptures have no application on the material realm) Just like in 7th canto Hiranyakashipu started talking Bhagavad Gita philosophy to calm his family, but he had no understanding of it and hence was misapplying it.

This is my understanding of Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy and I completely agree with Shripada Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana and the Acaryas , but I do not agree with the explanation of HG Bhurijana Prabhu in this case only. (That quote which Bhurijana ha d made is not his own. It was directly from the B.V.Bhusana commentary. So you are not disagreeing with Bhurijana pr alone but Baladeva Vidya Bhusana.And by the way I thoroughly accept Bhurijana Pr as an authority and so does ISKCON and his books are the syllabus material for Bhakti Shastri degree by VIHE and VTE.I have also got my degree from VIHE by studying Bhurijana ‘Surrender unto me’. So if you disagree even partially I think then the discussion less comes to an end. However with the hope that there c ould have been a misunderstanding I continue giving quotes.)

Note: It’s not that I don't accept any of HG Bhurijana Prabhu books/thoughts/lectures, I like his books/lectures etc and especially his new book "Japa" and interestingly he writes "even by simply slowing it (the mind) down as in Buddhist-style one nears transcendence! "

How do I understand Shri Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana?

“But if the jiva’s actions depend on the Lord, his action becomes mere engagement by the Lord, in fulfillment of the Lord’s goal. Jéva is simply like a piece of wood. The rules and prohibitions of scripture meant for the jiva would then be useless. It would not be possible to initiate action by ones own intelligence, since it is seen that the jéva is simply made to act by the Lord.”

I am not saying that the jiva is totally inactive. I agree that the rules and regulations would be useless if the jiva was completely inactive.Rules and regulations are prescribed for humans only because their soul is slightly ac tive and thus it has the capacity to do spiritual activity. Thus the following of rules and regulations for spiritual practice is an activity and that is actually the soul’s activity. The scriptures never encourage sense

21 gratification, they encourage only spiritual activities hence they appeal to those who souls are active. But animals are not expected to follow rules and regulations, and its true all such rules and regulations are actually useless for animals for humans who are like animals.

This is not the truth that the contain only spiritual practices. Krsna says “The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self.” B.G 2.45

B.G 3.10: “In the beginning of creation, the Lord of all creatures sent forth generations of men and demigods, along with sacrifices for Viñëu, and blessed them by saying, "Be thou happy by this yajna [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you everything desirable for living happily and achieving liberation." So Vedas contain mainly karma kanda sections meant for satisfying the senses and the Jnyana kanda section meant for Liberation and very small section of Bhakti i.e service to Krsna or Vishnu B.G 2.45. “The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature . O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self.”

Again i state, that the 'Soul is not the doer is not our Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy.

I agree, but I am not saying that. I am saying that the soul is the doer of only spiritual activities. Materialistic activities cannot be ascribed to the soul. I have attached a picture of what I am trying to convey please refer to the same.

As shown in the picture the soul starts awakening gradually. So what Srila Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana says is perfectly righ t but only for humans. Gaudiya is not for animals. But as you mentioned some examples, there are always some exceptions. I have read the book by HH Janananda Swami Animals in KC. Although some of these animals do show that the soul is awakened and hence I am sure their next birth will be a human body where they will come in contact with spirituality

Here are some more quotes by Srila Prabhupada *****Quote 1****** In conditional life the living entity actually remains as if a captive in the han ds of material energy. Whatever the material energy dictates, the conditioned soul does . He has no responsibility; he is simply the witness of the action, but he is forced to act in that way due to his offense in his eternal relationship with Krsna. *******Quote 2****** S.B 3.26.8: The cause of the conditioned soul's material body and senses, and the senses' presiding , the demigods, is the material nature. This is understood by learned

22 men. The feelings of happiness and distress of the soul, who is transcendental by nature, are caused by the spirit soul himself. PURPORT In Bhagavad-gétä it is said that when the Lord descends to this material world, He comes as a person by His own energy, ätma-mäyä. He is not forced by any superior energy. He comes by His own will, and this can be called His pastime, or Lila . But here it is clearly stated that the conditioned soul is forced to take a certain type of body and senses under the three modes of material nature. That body is not received according to his own choice. In other words, a conditioned soul has no free choice; he has to accept a certain type of body according to his karma . But when there are bodily reactions as felt in happiness and distress, it is to be understood that the cause is the spirit soul himself . If he so desires, the spirit soul can change this conditional life of dualities by choosing to serve Krsna. The living entity is the cause of his own suffering , but he can also be the cause of his eternal happiness. When he wants to engage in Krsn a consciousness, a suitable body is offered to him by the internal potency, the spiritual energy of the Lord, and when he wants to satisfy his senses, a material body is offered. B.G 13.21: “Nature is said to be the cause of all material causes and effects, whereas the living entity is the cause of the various sufferings and enjoyments in this world.” The following is one of the most brilliant purports extracted directly from B.V.Bhusan’s commentary on the topic of the Atheistic sankyavadis as a purport to B.G 13.20 and 21 in Gita Bhusana.(Bhusana Kotnis should accept the commentaries of Vidya Bhusana. I think you have the Name Bhushan by providence) B.V.B says “. Prakåti is said to be the cause, instrumental in producing the body and senses. The jiva is said to be the cause, being the enjoyer of happiness and distress. This verse speaks of their differing functions. Kärya means body. Since the senses are necessary in order to achieve action and knowledge, they are called käraëa. Prakåti is a cause, in that it transforms itself (kartåtve) into the forms of the senses and body. In the next verse the Lord will say that the jiva is situated in prakåti (puruñaù prakåti stho hi). Jéva exploits that prakåti which appear conscious by its association with the jiva . Thus that prakåti, ruled by jiva , is the creator of bodies and senses by transforming itself according to the jiva’s karmas . The jiva is the cause in the sense of being the enjoyer of happiness and distress which are offered by prakåti. He is the agent in enjoying them. The functions of the jiva are to preside over prakåti and experience happiness and distress. Since prakåti is the agent in regards to production of the body and senses, but is itself exploited by the jiva, the jiva is the main cause or doer. The author of Vedanta says kartä çästrärthavattvät:: the soul is the agent, not prakåti, since that is the meaning of the scriptures. (Vedanta Sutra 2.3.31) It will also be stated later that the Lord as the doer must be accepted in all cases, as was stated earlier (the Lord is the creator, maintainer and destroyer).

The jiva , identifying with prakåti in the form of his body, experiences happiness and distress which are born from prakåti, by births in various bodies of devatä and animal. This is caused by his desires for objects made of the guëas. This verse makes clear the agency of the jiva alone in enjoying and suffering and in living

23 in prakåti. The Lord also shows the cause of the jiva’s combining with prakåti. Though the jiva is by nature knowledge and bliss, it is situated in prakåti due to impressions of beginning less karma. Endowed with body, senses and präëa which are produced by prakåti, which the jīva rules, the jīva experiences (bhuìkte) happiness and distress (guëän) which are produced by prakåti. [1] Where? He experiences this by taking births in wombs which are higher (such devas and men) or lower (animal, bi rd and others), in well-made or poorly made wombs. In all this, the jéva alone is the agent. The cause of the association is explained. The cause is beginning less desire for objects made of the guëas (guëa saìgaù). The meaning is this. The beginning less jīva is contaminated with beginning fewer imprints in the form of karma. The jīva desiring enjoyable objects because of his being an enjoyer, will take shelter of prakåti equipped with the desirables which she offers to him, until those imprints of k arma are destroyed by devotee association. With the destruction of impressions, he enjoys the happiness in the abode of the Lord. The çruti says so’çnute sarvän kämän saha brahmaëä vipaçcitä: he attains all his desires with the omniscient Lord . (Taittiréya Upaniñad 2.1) The followers of säìkhya, taking isolated meanings of the statements “all activities are carried out by the modes” (BG 3.27) “prakåti is the doer” (BG 13.20), “everything is done by prakåti alone” (BG 13.29) and “the guëas alone are the ag ent” (BG 14.19), claim that prakåti alone is the agent. That is an impetuous interpretation, since prakåti, like a lump of earth or wood, is an unconscious element. The ability to gain knowledge, perceive, desire and act--the qualities of the agent--belon g to conscious entities alone. The çruti says vijïänaà yajïaà tanute karmäëi tanute’pi ca : the jīva accomplishes knowledge, sacrifice and action. (Taittiréya Upaniñad 2.5) Çruti also says: eña hi drañöä sprañöä çrotä rasayitä ghrätä mantä boddhä kartä vijïänätmä puruñaù : the conscious ätmä alone is the seer, toucher, hearer, taster, smeller, think er, knower, and agent. (Praçna Upaniñad 4.9) They maintain that prakåti has this nature of an agent because of being the receptacle of the jīva and thus having superimposition of consciousness. This is not so, because the agency of prakåti through proximity and imposition is caused by the proximity of the jīva alone. It is seen that the ability of hot iron to burn is due to fire, not the iron. One should not compare dull iron (or prakåti) to the water that moves or the tree that bears fruit, and thus conclude that this proves prakåti nature as an agent, because all of that action is accomplished by the presence of antaryämé , and because this contradicts the çruti, which is the foundation of knowledge. Memory (of scriptural rules) enables one to perfor m jyotiñöoma for bestowing svarga and meditation for bestowing liberation. This indicates that consciousness, the experience, not inert prakåti, is the agent. [2] Agency belongs to the jīva alone . When there are statements in scripture saying that prakåti is the doer, those statements are made in order to show the prominence of her functioning. Though a man carries something using his hand, we say that the hand carries an object. Similarly, because jīva accomplishes using prakåti, the scriptures say that prakåti accomplishes. This is how some explain such statements.”

Well, what is the point you are trying to make? The above verses, if you read the purport

24 carefully only proves that the 'soul is the doer' and is itself the cause of his imagination of being bound up. The Lord doesn't enforce this imagination.

The scripture is very silent on the origin of ignorance,

In the above purport the origin of ignorance has been explicitly mention. It is absolutely clear.

But that is not of interest. The Lord doses not enforce the imagination but gives sweet instructions like Bhagavad Gita, SB so that we can come out of ignorance. Some people ask why we are put here and did Krishna put us here etc since He is the cause of all causes. Expert preachers who are compassionate answer this question in a way to encourage them so they say that we actually choose to leave Krishna and we are envious of Lord Krishna and not it’s a place to reform ourselves. However this is preaching not siddhanta. This is what Garuòa däsa / Ravéndra-svarüpa däsa / Çubhänanda däsa / Çukavak däsa / Dayänanda däsa / Gaura Keçava däsa / Brahmä-muhürta däsa / Nandaräëé-devé däsé / Haripriyä-devé däsé write in the Vyasa puja offering to Srila Prabhupada. “By your teachings and example, we have learned that preaching is a transcendental art, and that there are many ways to present Kåñëa consciousness. Since this preaching field is so vast and variegated, you teach us that an Acarya is one who “cannot be expected to conform to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Kåñëa consciousness may be spread” (Cc. Ädi-lélä vol. 2, p. 23). You have shown us that an expert preacher presents the Vaiñëava siddhanta unchanged, but he does not always present this Vaiñëava siddhanta in exactly the same way. His behavior and speaking varies as the requirements of each preaching task are revealed to him by Kåñëa.” So next you hear a bonafide preacher give a class on this issue. Don’t think that he is not speaking siddhanta. In fact we should all work to humble our selves rather think that the preacher is preaching duplicity. This is generally the mentality in the west. To doubt. To be very proud to think they know a lot. And that through logic they can understand everything. They are very pure. Reading too much of philosophy of the Europeans subtly contaminates people. The soul can never be envious of the Shri Krishna. So does Lord enforce this? No, because the soul is misidentifying with the mind and body that’s why he suffers. So does Lord enforce this misidentification? My experience is that by reading Lord Krishna's instructions ones ignorance reduces. The root cause of bondage is this ignorance of who I am and who is responsible for it, I don’t know, but the soul is certainly responsible for getting out of it and Shri Krishna always assists such a person. And getting out of it is the manifestation of the activity/awakening of the soul.

My comment ; why is the soul suffering if he is not the doer, that means that The soul's suffering is caused by the soul's activities)

No its caused by ignorance and not by souls activities.

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Yes but what is causing the ignorance B.G 7.27 Krsna explains, [“O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, bewildered by dualities arisen from desire and hate.”

PURPORT The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by the illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate, the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Kåñëa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.] Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur writes his commentary on the above verse.

“When do the jiva’s become bewildered by Your Maya ? At the beginning of the creation of this universe ( surge ), all the jiva’s (sarva-bhütäni ) become bewildered. How? Desire for objects favorable to the senses, and hatred for things which obstruct the pleasure of the senses, arising from previous actions, give rise to illusion of duality--of respect and disrespect, hot and cold, happiness and distress, and woman and man. A person thinks “I am happy, being respected.” “I am sad, being disrespected.” “This is my wife.” “This is my husband.” This duality gives rise to complete ignorance ( moha ). That in turn gives rise to complete bewilderment ( saàmoham )--extreme attachment to wife and sons. “ temporary situations created by illusion and do not refer to the ultimate nature of the living entity.'

As you said the ultimate nature of a living entity is transcendental and this ultimate nature I refer to as soul. Which is manifested in various bodies in various ways in various extent. In a liberated person its fully manifest. Then as i quoted in the above para, why does the soul have to suffer the result of his material activities. Sounds like mayavada. Soul suffers due to the bond between itself and the mind which is subject to karma technically called ignorance. This is also confirmed by Avanti Brahmana in the Uddhava Gita (this part is also called Sanyaasi Gita/Bhikshu Gita).

SB 11.23.42 : The brāhman a said: These people are not the cause of my happiness and distress. Neither are the demigods, my own body, the planets, my past work, or time. Rather, it is the mind alone that causes happiness and distress and perpetuates the rotation of material life. (Note he says his past work is also not cause of his suffering).

I simply disagree with your interpretation. Now again I argue on the basis of the Purport of B.V.B. Quote: “Though a man carries something using his hand, we say that the hand carries an object. Similarly, because jiva accomplishes using prakå ti, the scriptures say that prak åti accomplishes.”

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then what does he blame his suffering on?

SB 11.23.44 : Although present along with the struggling mind within the material body, the Super soul is not endeavoring, because He is already endowed with transcendental enlightenment. Acting as my friend, He simply witnesses from His transcendental position. I, the infinitesimal spirit soul, on the other hand, have embraced this mind, which is the mirror reflecting the image of the material world . Thus I have become engaged in enjoying objects of desire and am entangled due to contact with the modes of nature.

So he attributes his suffering to his embracing of his mind which is also called ignorance. He further argues that happiness and distress is not part of the soul (hence material desire is not part of the soul.

This is your own speculation. The Sastras are like the bright sunshine and your interpretation are like clouds blocking the sunshine. (With due respects).You have been reading the philosophies of too many European thinkers. And by the way, embracing the material mind is also a material activity of the soul. And also if the material desire is not a part of the soul he shouldn’t be embracing the material mind. If you say it is b’cos of ignorance, it is not a spiritual attribute either. Also the last statement, ‘Thus I have become engaged in enjoying objects of desire and am entangled due to contact with the modes of nature.’ Is very important to note. Thus it is very much possible that The soul can enjoy materially and thus be active even materially.

The statement "Acquiring those potencies, the jiva exerts his free will and assumes control of his body and senses for the purpose of fulfilling karmic endeavors. " Is not correct as confirmed here. The fact that the soul is embracing the material mind indicates he is fulfilling his material desires. You should also read the purports along with the context in which they are quoted or you will be mislead. SB 11.23.54 : If we assume that fruitive work is the cause of happiness and distress, we still are not dealing with the soul. The idea of material work arises when there is a spiritual actor who is conscious and a material body that undergoes the transformation of happiness and distress as a reaction to such work. Since the body has no life, it cannot be the actual recipient of happiness and distress, nor can the soul, who is ultimately completely spiritual and aloof from the material body. Since karma thus has no ultimate basis in either the body or the soul, at who can one become angry? There is nothing in this verse too that contradicts B.V.B’s statements. This says that fruitive work is not the cause of happiness and distress. So there is no use blaming it. Further...... SB 11.23.55 : If we accept time as the cause of happiness and distress, that experience still cannot apply to the spirit soul, since time is a manifestation of the Lord's spiritual

27 potency and the living entities are also expansions of the Lord's spiritual potency manifesting through time. Certainly a fire does not burn its own flames or sparks, nor does the cold harm its own snowflakes or hail. In fact, the spirit soul is transcendental and beyond the experience of material happiness and distress. At whom, therefore, should one become angry?

This verse says that it is not ‘time’ which the cause of the happiness distress is. I again quote from BVB The followers of säìkhya, taking isolated meanings of the statements “all activities are carried out by the modes” (BG 3.27) “prakåti is the doer” (BG 13.20), “everything is done by prakåti alone” (BG 13.29) and “the guëas alone are the agent” (BG 14.19), claim that prakåti alone is the agent. That is an impetuous interpretation, since prakåti, like a lump of earth or wood, is an unconscious element. The ability to gain knowledge, perceive, desire and act--the qualities of the agent--belong to conscious entities alone. The çruti says vijïänaà yajïaà tanute karmäëi tanute’pi ca : the jéva accomplishes knowledge, sacrifice and action. (Taittiréya Upaniñad 2.5) Çruti also says: eña hi drañöä sprañöä çrotä rasayitä ghrätä mantä boddhä kartä vijïänätmä puruñaù : the conscious ätmä alone is the seer, toucher, hearer, taster, smeller, thinker, knower, and agent. (Praçna Upaniñad 4.9)

Further...... SB 11.23.56 : The false ego gives shape to illusory material existence and thus experiences material happiness and distress. The spirit soul, however, is transcendental to material nature; he can never actually be affected by material happiness and distress in any place, under any circumstance or by the agency of any person. A person who understands this has nothing whatsoever to fear from the material creation.

The conclusion or essence of his song is this, following verse. SB 11.23.57 : I shall cross over the insurmountable ocean of nescience by being firmly fixed in the service of the lotus feet of Kr s n a . This was approved by the previous ācāryas, who were fixed in firm devotion to the Lord, Paramätmä , and the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

If the soul is materially inactive there would have been no necessity of bringing out the demerits of this material world so graphically by using adjectives like ‘insurmountable’ and nouns like ‘ocean of nescience’ etc. This verse is exclusively to discourage material activity and taking up d.s.

It is also confirmed in the Jaiva Dharma. Chapter 1 "The eternal nature of a thing is its eternal religion. The religion of something comes from its original identity. When Lord Krishna desires to create something, He creates its original nature. That original nature is its eternal religion. However, when as thing comes into contact with other things, its nature may become changed. After some days that changed state becomes firmly established and it seems to be the eternal nature of the

28 thing . However this changed nature is not in truth the real nature of the thing . These changed natures are called nisarga. I will give you an example of such a changed nature. Water has an original nature. The original nature of water is that it is liquid. However, in contact with certain circumstance, that nature becomes changed and the formerly liquid water may become solid ice. That is the changed nature of water, which seems to be its original nature. However, this changed nature is not eternal. It is always temporary. It is manifested for some reason, it remains for some time, and eventually it disappears of its own accord. On the other hand, the original nature of a thing is eternal. Even when the changed nature is manifested, the original nature remains, although it is dormant. In the course of time, when circumstances are favorable, the original nature is again openly manifested. "the original nature of a thing is eternal. Its changed nature is temporary. One who knows the truth knows the difference between the eternal and temporary nature. One who does not know the truth thinks the temporary nature is eternal." ------So the original nature is transcendental and it is not that the original nature itself changes, this is impossible otherwise we wouldn’t have used the word eternal nature. It becomes superimposed by artificial nature and then that artificial nature becomes well established the real nature is dormant (or soul is sleeping/inactive)

Again super speculation. What is this ‘superimposed’ and stuff. Where is it said by B.V.T.? All he is saying is ‘its nature may become changed’. Please don’t speculate? You may then argue that if it is changed then how it could be eternal? Yes, But that is written. And that has to be possible. Both have to be true on the spiritual realm. We must never change the wordings of the scripture to make it fit into our logic. Words like superimposed are not warranted. It is a product of a fertile speculative brain.

This is not supported by the Sastras and the Acaryas. The soul is always the doer and not the modes, whether conditioned or liberated. The soul has triggered the modes to bear upon him.

How is that? Why do you say that the soul has triggered the modes? The scriptures say that soul is trapped by the modes since time immemorial. As per my replies above would you still say that soul is the doer of material activities? If yes then how is this Gaudiya Vedanta? It seems to be like the superficial Christianity like they say like this "we have sinned, we left God and did evil and now we repent, the Son of God will deliver us from our sins." But practitioners of esoteric Christianity say that there is a Christ a Son of God everyone, one has to just discover that and be in touch with that. This according to me sounds more like Vaishnavism.

I have already given quotes above and here is another one.S.P lecture Çrémad- Bhägavatam 1.15.1New York, November 29, 1973: “We living entities, we are eternally servant of Kåñëa. That is our position. But if we deny this position, "Now why shall I

29 become servant of Kåñëa? I am independent," then suffering begins, immediate. Kåñëa bhuliya jīva bhoga vaïcha kare, as soon as you desire to enjoy independently, immediately—that means immediately he is captured by mayā.

Kåñëa bhuliya jīva bhoga vaïcha kare päçate mayā tare jäpaöiyä dhare It is very easy to understand. Just like if you don't care for the government laws, if you want to live independently, that means immediately you are in the clutches of the police force. You haven't got to create, it is already there. So our position is always dependent on God. We should understand this. This is Kåñëa consciousness .” The Mahayana Buddhists also say that there is a Bodhisattva in everyone, and everyone is potentially a Buddha. The Advaita Vedantists also say that everyone is Bramha (Aham Bramhasmi) but unfortunately they confuse the Bramha with Para Bramha. The sankhya (not the atheistic)( Shri VijyanBhikshu etc) also say that the soul is present in everyone and is transcendental.

These philosophies seem to really pamper my false ego to think I am sooooooo pure. I feel really good. I want to believe in it. But unfortunately it is not our Gaudiya Siddhanta and so I won’t.

And finally the crest jewel of all debaters Lord Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu also confirms the same in this immortal verse He sang in front of Lord . Naham vipro Na ca nara-patir napi vaisyo Na sudro Naham varni Na ca grha-patir no vanastho yatir va Kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramananda-purnamrtabdher Gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah

"I am not a Brahmana ; I am not a ksatriya ; I am not a vaisyo or a Sudra . Nor am I a brahmachary , a householder, a vanaprastha , or a Sanyaasi . I identify myself only as the servant of the servant of the servant of the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krsna, the maintainer of the Gopis . He is like an ocean of nectar, and he is the cause of universal transcendental bliss. He always exists with brilliance." ( Padyavali 74). He never said," I was evil soul and through repentance I have become a good soul and I won’t go back to becoming an evil soul because I have learnt my lesson." No He says He was never an evil soul but always a servant of servant of Shri Krishna.

Now again another case of mental speculation. ‘He was never an evil soul’. Good gracious. This is in the past tense. But everything is in the present continuous tense in the above verse. So your purport is a misrepresentation. Quoting BVB B.G 13.29. He who sees all activities being done by matter alone, and sees the soul as doing nothing, actually sees. “ How does he perform this distinction of the individual self from prakåti? [3] The Lord explains in two verses.

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He who sees that all activities are being done by prakåti alone, and impelled by the Lord, by my superintendence (indicated by the word ca ), and sees the ätmä as not doing those activities, he alone sees himself as he truly is. This is the meaning. I, a jīva, having a nature of knowledge and bliss, do not actually perform the actions which produce suffering, such as fighting or sacrifice. Inspired by the Supreme Lord according to my desires for fulfilling my enjoyment, and superintended by me who have lost discrimination and possess beginning less impressions for enjoyment, this prakåti alone with the nature of happiness, distress and illusion does the actions, through my body and senses. Because of supplying the body and senses, prakåti is the doer of the actions. Prakåti is the doer of the actions because of being the instrument . The pure jīva, the non-doer, is separate from prakåti which accomplishes that action. By this (since he sees the jīva as non-doer in material acts) it is clear that such a person also sees that the pure jiva is also a doer .”

So in conclusion the Acaryas say that the soul is completely transcendental and by nature it loves servant of Lord Krishna, but due to ignorance its suffering. Again I have refuted this claim of yours on the basis of the teachings of Baladeva Vidya Bhusana, Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur, Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.

Please don’t bear any offense; I am really grateful for your wonderful thoughts and for bearing patience with me.

Please don’t mind my refutations either. You are my friend. I still remember you while you were here during the Gita course and your visit to India during vacations. You are certainly a deep thinker and a person with service attitude. And I appreciate that. However the philosophy as I have been taught by my differs from yours and thus I have to present the points accordingly. I don’t claim to know a lot. I am not a scholar. I am only repeating. So thank you very much for your patience. All the best. Hare Krsna. Thank You.

Your Servant

***********Akd's replies in Dark Brown Color*************** Hare Krishna Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu,

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Thank you very much for your email. Now I exactly understand why you wrote that article, and I guess you understand why I wrote my comments, doubts. Both of us have different points of views, and I guess we have to agree to disagree. My understanding of Shri Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana is quite different from yours. I know many devotees/ISKCON Gurus/Gurus outside ISKCON etc who also support my view. Why don't take the official ISKCON GBC View on it. Reference quoted in the last para of this mail. And I specifically quote from a source whom you have great faith in and whom I also respect very much which is HH Radhanath Swami. HH Radhanath Swami (From nectar drops page 72) "When the soul - which is sat cit ananda, is clouded by the false ego, the mind tries to find pleasure somewhere else through the senses" Hare Krsna happen to be the unworthy disciple of the person you are quoting above. He has delivered more lectures in ISKCON Chowpatty than any other place in the world. I have by causeless mercy had the opportunity to hear a large no. of them. And I can tell by my experience the statement above only speaks about the soul being clouded by false ego which I agree cent percent. However where is the statement, saying that ignorance or false ego is the original cause of the fall down which is the topic under discussion? There is none. The quotation you have cited is extremely inadequate in helping one come to any conclusion. I am surprised you quoted such a weak proof to substantiate your case after presenting stronger ones earlier.

I would yet again quote the explicit purport of BVB on this topic

"When there are statements in scripture saying that prakrti is the doer, those statements are made in order to show the prominence of her functioning. Though a man carries something using his hand, we say that the hand carries an object."

The followers of säìkhya, taking isolated meanings of the statements “all activities are carried out by the modes” (BG 3.27) “prakåti is the doer” (BG 13.20), “everything is done by prakåti alone” (BG 13.29) and “the guëas alone are the agent” (BG 14.19), claim that prakåti alone is the agent. That is an impetuous interpretation, since prakåti, like a lump of earth or wood, is an unconscious element….

Even I can quote Maharaja like you did. "People's criticizing others is an exhibition of their envy to GOD." - H.H.R.M And I am sure you will use the same logic that I used to dismantle this citation. "So in conclusion the Acaryas say that the soul is completely transcendental and by nature it loves servant of Lord Krishna, but due to ignorance its suffering." - Bhushan Kotnis

Reply to my above quote by HG Akincana Krishna Prabhu.

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"Again I have refuted this claim of yours on the basis of the teachings of Baladeva Vidya Bhusana, Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakura, Srila Prabhupada and his disciples." from the above quote of Radhanath Swami its clear to me that the soul is sat cid ananda is clouded by the false ego( I used the word ignorance instead of false ego, and also used the word superimposed instead of clouded). Which is not warranted because the analogy of the clouds is often used in the Bhagavatam (and not the dictionary) to mean to obscure the light of.. Or Make less visible or unclear... And not superimpose. Quote from the S.B introduction, " It is foolish to think of oneself as more intelligent than Çréla Vyäsadeva.He has already expressed himself in his sütras, and there is no need of help from personalities of lesser importance. His work, the Vedänta-sütra, is as dazzling as the midday sun, and when someone tries to give his own interpretations on the self- effulgent sun like Vedänta-sütra, he attempts to cover this sun with the cloud of his imagination." So I don’t know how to reconcile your answers with HH Radhanath Swamis quote, there may be couple of options.

1. HH Radhanath Swami does not understand properly and hence he is wrong and therefore the soul is not sat chid ananda or transcendental and in fact such philosophy only makes the false ego feel "sooooooo" good. And thus this isn’t Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

2. HH Radhanath Swami is perfectly accurate in his astute observation/conclusion that the soul is sat cit ananda and how it is covered/clouded by false ego and thats why it has turned toward sense gratification( or suffering).

I know for sure that the topic under discussion is not whether H.H.R.M is having a good understanding of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition or not. We are discussing who is having the wrong interpretations. The 'Nectar drops' series is hardly a credible source to quote from for establishing siddhanta. It is meant for inspiration. Also it is compiled from Maharaja's lectures and not his writings. I don't say that what he speaks is not authority. I am saying when a person speaks the entire context needs to be seen all the more b'cos naturally spoken language is different from written ones. I have also quoted S.P conversations below. But I have given the entire context and not just 'one liners' .

I close with another quote of HH Radhanath Swami. Nectar drops pg 72 “When false ego collapses material conditioning is vanquished"

Oh No! Not again.

I wholeheartedly go with option number 2.

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Me too.

I do not want to make/ put forward any more conclusions, I think the above two quotes are very clear. And I completely respect your point of view, but I don’t subscribe to it which I think is fine.

I presented the point of view of the Acaryas without interpretations. Quoting the texts as it is. I only underlined the important sentences. And yet if you feel this is my point of view? I agree on this point that everyone has the right to subscribe or reject a person's philosophy. However these are the conclusions of liberated souls and the Sastras and not mine. However my humble request is that do give a careful consideration to the evidence presented. In my opinion it plays an important role on the path to purification. I helps one assume responsibility of his situation rather than 'blame it on the rain'.

Please don’t take any offense. Anyway we look at it the goal is to purify the heart and be Krishna Conscious.

In fact I would like to thank you for taking time out for the discussion. It helped me deepen my own understanding of the philosophy and also appreciate the amazing contributions of the Acaryas like BVB and VCT on this subject. Please don’t bear any offense; we had a great discussion of philosophy, thank you so much for that. I see you like my younger brother and thus spoke philosophy. Philosophy or jnyana is secondary only to Bhakti. What you devotees are doing in America for Krsna consciousness I am quite sure is quite amazing and i think you are pleasing S.P and the previous Acaryas. Yet again I would like to express my apologies if I have hurt your sentiments by my remarks. My intention was not to offend. Hope to see your ecstatic smile sometime in the future. Hare Krsna.

You may go through some additional quotes for your perusal whenever you find time: Yours

Bhushan

Do Christianity and Gaudiya Vaishnavism have something in common?

Bishop Kelly: Oh, yes. You’re Grace; there is one thing I wish to ask you. Do you believe in some sort of universal but inherent deficiency in human nature, in other words, that man irrespective of his environment, irrespective of where he comes from, that he has, he is prone to evil? In the Catholic Church we call that original sin. Original sin is an inherited deficiency in which man is turned away from God rather than turned towards God, and that he holds within himself a seed of failure in..., spiritually, and also a seed of unreliability so that the very makeup of man demands the enlightening touch and the

34 helping hand of God so that he may overcome his inherent and abiding deficiency. So we hold that that is the nature of things, which man... It's not just a good thing or an advisable thing that man reaches out to and for God, but it is a necessary thing, that God not merely is there to improve upon what you might say would be a natural goodness of man, but man has a natural deficiency he needs God to overcome. And as he overcomes, of course, he progresses further and he is enriched by God. But we hold that very clearly. Prabhupada: Yes . That is stated in one of the Vedic literature, that: Nitya-siddha kåñëa-prema sädhya kabhu naya Çravaëädi-çuddha-citte karaye udaya [Cc. madhya 22.107] The inherent principle is eternally a fact, his obedience to God. But artificially he has covered it, artificially. The God consciousness is there in everyone, but by so-called material advancement, he has forgotten. He has his obedience to God, natural. Even the aborigines in the forest, they also submit to the manifestation of God's different energies. As soon as there is some lightning and there is thunderbolt, they immediately... They offer obeisance. As soon as they see a big sea, ocean, they offer obeisance. So that is inherent. But due to the material association it is covered.

Superficial Christianity or Gaudiya Vaishnavism Hayagréva: Pascal believed in the doctrine of original sin. That doctrine holds that at one time man fell from grace by committing some sin or other and that fall from grace accounts for his present position between the demigods and the beasts. In other words, that original sin accounts for man's engagement, or encasements, in matter. Prabhupada: Yes, this is our... Hayagréva: What was this original sin? Prabhupada: To disobey the order of Kåñëa , or not to serve Kåñëa. Just like some servant, he tries that "Why I am serving this master? Why not become a master." The, sometimes psychologically it comes. A man is working in the office, he is seeing the managing director is sitting and is taking all the money, and sometimes the worker... Just like a capitalist and the worker. Why it is Communist movement? That they are thinking that "We are working, and the capitalist is taking the money." So they revolt, they make strike, and they form a society that "We have the..., we must have this money." That is communism. So similarly, when the living entity—he is eternally part and parcel of God; to serve God, that is his real position—but when he thinks that "Why I shall serve God? I shall enjoy myself, " that is the beginning of fall down. So what is your question? When the... This was your question, that "When the sinful life begins?" Hayagréva: Oh, what was what this original sin was? Prabhupada: This is the original sin. When he thought of not to serve God but to become God, that is the original . Just like the Mayavada, they have knowledge; they have philosophy, everything, but still trying to become God, which is impossible. Then there is no meaning of God. If simply by meditation and by some material efforts one can become God, then where is the use of God? You cannot become God. But artificially you can try to become God, and that artificial way of becoming God is the beginning of sinful life.

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The Vedic observer. How I was saved from being saved. Author Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu "The kingdom of God is our home, I said, our native country. All of us once resided there, engaging in the activity of our essential nature, our eternal religion: devotional service to God. But some of us perversely sought to deny our own nature and aspired not to be enjoyed by God but to enjoy as He does, not to serve Him but to be served, not to be controlled but to be the controller. In short, the original sin of the minute particle of God's energy is the desire to become God. Therefore we are exiled to the material world, where we can play out our masquerade and finally, by the mercy of the Lord, be rectified."

The Adam Bomb But all this springs from the original sinful will—the desire to become the Lord . All beings born into the material world, Kåñëa explains in Bhagavad-gétä (7.27), show the taint of this original sin in the form of desire and hate. That desire and hate breaks out everywhere, but the original desire is, why can't I be God? And the original hate, why should Kåñëa be God? But we can change our will at any time. By fully acknowledging that God is the proprietor of everything, the friend of everyone, and the enjoyer of all, we can end this stupid and vicious struggle to dominate and control each other and to possess this earth for ourselves. Now we have dedicated some of our best brains to furthering the Is struggle; and bestowed upon suffering humanity the ripe fruit of our original sin—The Vedic observer. Author Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu

Vyasa Puja offering - (Christians and Gaudiya Vaishnavism do have something in common besides the ’Jesus within us') You are teaching us what we have forgotten. We are originally all pure spiritual souls. But our eternal function is not God, but däsa, däsa, däsa, loving servitor ship to God. Subordinate. We fell from that position due to our original sin. The Christians also have this concept of original sin, but when you ask them to elucidate matters, they cannot. This is because their system also allows that despicable leeway to ultimately balk. The reason for our falling from the spiritual world was due to our original envy and pride toward Lord Kåñëa. We thought, "why do I have to serve Kåñëa, I am just as good as Kåñëa." Thus we were sent down to get covered over again and again in the masquerade ball called saàsära, the excruciating cycle of birth and death. Our original light has now become covered by so many curtains, all linked to one another very systematically and scientifically. You are forcing us, your disciples, to realize and remove that original curtain so that we won't be forced to entangle ourselves only with subsequent symptoms. They

36 will be lifted automatically and thus by your grace, our moon will burst forth in full glory…... Your servants at ISKCON—Honolulu Çukadeva däsa adhikäré, Jagamohini-devé däsé, Mädhurya-lélä / Satyadeva däsa adhikäré, Mahäguëa-devé däsé, Maitreya, Muralé / Çatänanda däsa adhikäré, Kadamba- kusumäpriyä-devé däsé, Räma-lakñmaëa / Çästä däsa adhikäré / Jagad däsa adhikäré, Bhaktin Nancy / Harivallabha däsa adhikäré, Sakhé-devé däsé / Bharata däsa brahmacäré / Kani däsa brahmacäré / Gopéparäëadhana däsa brahmacäré / Lakñmaëa däsa brahmacäré / Niçcinta däsa brahmacäré / Péyüñahänti däsa brahmacäré / Bhakta-jana däsa brahmacäré / Munéçvara däsa brahmacäré / Ädi-kartä däsa brahmacäré / Kailäsaccandra däsa brahmacäré / Mark Hains / Kuça-devé däsé, Ätmäräma / Heräpaïcamé-devé däsé, Tära / Sukhé-devé däsé / Saàhäriëä-devé däsé / Bhakta William / Bhakta Steve / Bhakta Bob / Lélänanda däsa brahmacäré / Jyotir däsa / Aniruddha däsa brahmacäré

Freedom from guilt.'Blame it on the rain' The Reformers of the sixteenth century (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and others) were revolted by—and so revolted against—the Church's powerful institutionalized hierarchy. They argued it had no support in the pages of the Bible. They cried out for freedom in the Word of God from priest-enforced guilt, superstition and resignation. Thoughtful Europeans, hoping Christianity would now be rid of the harsher consequences of the Augustinian doctrine of Adam's original sin, were soon dismayed to discover that the shedding of the Catholic snakeskin revealed a Protestant snake beneath. The Protestants seemed just as unrelenting as the Catholics in laying down “guilt trips” upon the populace: witch-hunts, heresy trials and public burning of supposed enemies of Christ. In disgust, some intellectuals sought freedom from guilt in a different direction, one that led away from the Bible. And so modern philosophy was born. In the seventeenth century philosophers allied themselves with science. The hope of science was to make reality controllable by reducing it to physics and mathematics. From the dimensions of good and evil. By S.P disciple Suhotra Prabhu.

Can the Soul Desire to Leave Krsna or is he 'hard coded' to serve Krsna only. Guru-krpa: . . . They say that in the spiritual world we say that everything is peaceful, there is no birth and death, there is no material conditions, so why if the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritually, everything is spiritual, how is it that one can become envious of Krsna in such conditions? This is a very . . . Acyutananda: The original sin. Sudama: Why we are envious. Guru-krpa: How is it that, if everything is free from envy, free from bad material elements . . . Prabhupada: Yes. Guru-krpa: How is it that . . . Prabhupada: That is independence . In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate.

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Sudama: It is very hard to understand. Prabhupada: No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult. Acyutananda: It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand. Prabhupada: Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence , proportionately, because you are part and parcel.

A little later in the same conversation:

Acyutananda: But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.” Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return. Acyutananda: He can return. Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our fall down. From the book the origin of the Jiva by Drutakarma Dasa.

Causeless unwillingness or Ignorance By Çréla Prabhupäda’s grace, may Lord Sri Kåñëa’s philosophy be our solace, our guide, and a source of enduring strength, patience and determination. As much as we take Çréla Prabhupäda’s words into our hearts and realize them, that much will our present and future circumstances improve, for it is our consciousness that determines the states of being we shall attain. Each of us is inconceivably fortunate because Kåñëa, our best friend, is on our side; He wants us with Him. That we are not with Him is due only to our causeless unwillingness . May our service to the Lord as a husband or a wife eradicate that causeless unwillingness? - ISKCON Communication journal 9.1, September 2001

More on 'Causeless unwillingness'. Dear Çréla Prabhupada, please accept our humble obeisance. We pray unto your lotus feet to please bestow upon us just one drop of your mercy, so that we may have no desire within our heart that is apart from yours. Purify us of all traces of self-motivation. Then, accepting your order as our life and soul, perhaps we may be of some small assistance in your tireless endeavor to shower the cooling moonlike rays of the lotus feet of Lord Chaitanya and Lord Nityänanda upon the suffering humanity. This alone will bring about ultimate relief of all miseries brought about by our "causeless unwillingness to serve and love the Supreme." Çréla Prabhupada, "Kåñëa is yours. You have the power to give Him to me. I am simply running behind you shouting, 'Kåñëa, Kåñëa'" All glories to Çréla Prabhupada!! The devotees of Boston ISKCON 1976 Vyasa puja offerings to Srila Prabhupada by ISKCON Boston

The Other Famous Gaudiya Vaishnava Acaryas on 'Ignorance or the willful choice.'

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This material world is only the perverted reflection of the spiritual world. It is the shadow, the abstraction, of the spiritual world which is the real substance. Our soul who is a citizen of the spiritual world has somehow lost all real recollections of the substantive world. But the features of the spiritual world are reflected in a distorted manner in this material world. It is that very same world which is presented in this distorted and unintelligible form by our present defective senses. The dormant soul itself is responsible for this distortion . It is the inevitable result of the wrong use of the faculty of free reason which the constituent principle of the soul. The soul is free to choose to serve the Truth. It is equally free to follow the opposite course. The proper function of the free reason is to serve the Truth, or in other words, to be prepared to recognize its natural limitations and submit to the guidance of a higher reason whenever the latter makes its appearance. The reason of fallen souls refused deliberately to recognize his own native littleness and renounced the guidance of the higher reason. In fact, it set up for itself in order to build a world of its own with its own partly resources. The present world is the result of this disloyal activity . We have put our neck deliberately in to the noose that holds us fast in its iron grip and the same original perversity still persists and prevents us from reverting to our constitutional position . So long as this irrational perversity continues, we are doomed to grope in ignorance and reap the reward of the wilful abuse of our free reason in the form of this petty existence of sin and death. -From the Book. The Erotic Principle and Unalloyed Principle by Shripada Narayanadasa Bhaktisudhakar Prabhu (Srila Prabhupäda’s God brother from the Gaudiya Matha)

The OFFICIAL ISKCON OPINION - FROM THE ISKCON COMMUNICATIONS JOURNAL JULY/DECEMBER 1996. How has this effulgent, spiritual being called the soul become fettered to this world of illusion, and forced to undergo the repetition of birth and death? Gauòéya Vaiñëavas believe that we were once with Kåñëa, enjoying an eternal life full of knowledge and bliss, but we abused that freedom, misjudged our strength and gave up that relationship which was the very basis of our existence. Each of us made a willful decision to abandon Kåñëa and instantly plummeted downwards. Imprisoned in material existence from a time immemorial, we can neither recall our original sin nor easily find the means to expurgate it. This is hell, though certainly there are regions darker than this. Yet the term of our imprisonment need not be eternal. Our bondage will cease when the sins that continue to stain our consciousness are entirely removed. Until then, the soul must continue to transmigrate. ***************

**********Akd's replies in blue************ From: Bhushan Kotnis, Date: Saturday, August 28, 2010, 10:26 PM

Hare Krishna Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu Please accept my humble obeisance

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Thank you so much for your email and also for your very good insights. Well to be very honest, my job has started to become more intense over few days. ( I graduated and have now started working). As a result my spiritual practice is suffering and as a result of that my intelligence is clouded. So I was unable to fully go through the viewpoints presented. I tried reading the Vedanta Sutra by Shripada Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana, and it was interesting, but I couldn’t really study it a deliberate on it, so I just have some superficial understanding. My experience in studying the Sastras is that it is only by purity and clarity of mind; I can actually understand and appreciate the Sastras. I don’t have enough of that right now, so if I try to put forward some point, it will be mostly out of some fanatic sentiment. So in the last mail I was too mentally exhausted to put forward any more comprehensive thoughts, so I just shared the two lines by HH Radhanath Swami. But I will be quitting this job in about 2 months, and will catch up with my spiritual practices, which will bring forth clarity of thought. But I thank you very much for sharing the writings of Shrila Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana, I had never read what he had to say and thanks to you I got exposed to his writings.

Now I have to rush to help the Janmashtami festival sound system. HH will be in the Q&A booth, it will be interesting.... Thanks a lot, Your servant Bhushan

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