IICSA Inquiry Roman Catholic Church Investigation Wider Hearing 31 October 2019 (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] Lo
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IICSA Inquiry Roman Catholic Church Investigation Wider Hearing 31 October 2019 1 Thursday, 31 October 2019 1 a parish; is that right? 2 (10.15 am) 2 A. That's correct. 3 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to Day 4 of 3 Q. You saw an advert for the role in the Catholic journal, 4 this public hearing. Mr Saad? 4 The Tablet, and you were interviewed by two vice-chairs 5 MR SAAD: Good morning, chair. The first witness this 5 of the commission, a general secretary of the Bishops' 6 morning is Mr Danny Sullivan. His statement and 6 Conference and a representative of the Conference of 7 supporting relevant documentation should be behind 7 the Religious, the CoR; is that right? 8 volume 1 in your bundle. Can the witness be sworn, 8 A. Yes. 9 please? 9 Q. You were offered the role, having had that interview, 10 MR DANNY SULLIVAN (sworn) 10 subject to it being ratified by the President of 11 Examination by MR SAAD 11 the Bishops' Conference and President of the Conference 12 MR SAAD: Your name, please? 12 of Religious; is that right? 13 A. Danny Sullivan. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You were the chair of the National Catholic Safeguarding 14 Q. The first meeting that you attended was in March 2012. 15 Commission, the NCSC, were you not, from March 2012 15 I want to take you first, please, to a document, it's 16 to July 2015? 16 CHC001741_003. We will bring it up on screen, 17 A. Yes. 17 Mr Sullivan. To be clear about what this document is, 18 Q. In terms of your background, you had a career in 18 it's from an NCSC strategy day which took place on 19 education as a teacher, a head teacher, a schools 19 4 November 2011, so before your tenure. But what we see 20 advisor and Director of Education; is that right? 20 at the bottom of that document, if we could magnify the 21 A. That's correct. 21 SWOT analysis, is what was recorded in a discussion 22 Q. Before you took up the role of chair of the NCSC, you 22 about what those who attended the meeting determined to 23 were aware of the church's safeguarding structure from 23 be the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats 24 your attendance at your local parish and, indeed, your 24 of the commission, and what I wanted to ask you, given 25 wife was a volunteer safeguarding coordinator at 25 this was months before you started, is whether any of Page 1 Page 2 1 these reflected the position as you took over the 1 A. I think, if that reflects the church taking seriously 2 commission? 2 safeguarding, then I would. 3 In the "Strengths" box, first of all -- I won't go 3 Q. Further down, it says, "Sign up to the 'One Church' 4 through each bullet point, but just a few of them: 4 approach". Did you feel, when you started at the NCSC, 5 "Independent professionals at every level." 5 that there was a sign-up to the "One Church" approach? 6 Would you agree with that? 6 A. No, and I made that clear in my statement. 7 A. I think safeguarding coordinators, if that's referring 7 Q. We will come on to that in more detail later. 8 to safeguarding coordinators, had a range of 8 Indeed, on that point, if one looks at the "Threats" 9 backgrounds. Sorry, I'm not quite sure what -- when 9 box in the bottom right, the second bullet point down 10 I got my bundle, I think this was the first time I'd 10 is: 11 seen this. 11 "Lack of 'One Church' and embedded culture of 12 Q. Yes, this isn't a document that you had anything to do 12 safeguarding." 13 with putting together, but what I'm asking is whether or 13 Does that reflect more closely your view of the 14 not this is something that you agreed or disagreed with, 14 situation? 15 as you took over from the NCSC? 15 A. I think that's fair comment. 16 A. I think, when I took over, I was learning about the 16 Q. Just dealing with weaknesses, the second bullet point 17 structures and the setups which, in a national sense, 17 down -- well, the second hyphen above the top bullet 18 I wasn't aware of. I had a very good briefing with 18 point, "Lack of sanction". It's right to say that if 19 Sister Jane Bertelson, who was the vice-chair, but it 19 someone were to not follow an NCSC or CSAS policy, there 20 was only as I continued as chair that I became aware of 20 was no sanction, there was no way of enforcing that; is 21 what the structures were across dioceses and what some 21 that right? 22 of the issues might be. 22 A. I think it would depend who it was. I think if there 23 Q. Halfway down the same box, a strength is identified as 23 was an issue about competence of a safeguarding 24 "CSAS as part of the church structure". Would you agree 24 coordinator, I think that would be dealt with through 25 with that? 25 the director of CSAS. Page 3 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com Lower Ground, 20 Furnival Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London EC4A 1JS IICSA Inquiry Roman Catholic Church Investigation Wider Hearing 31 October 2019 1 Q. How? 1 the history and tradition of the Catholic Church, and 2 A. I would imagine that they would make clear that there 2 I think that's relevant in relation to abuse. I think 3 was -- if they weren't competent, that there would be 3 much abuse happened because children didn't know how to 4 threats, vulnerability to victims and survivors. 4 question a priest, if the priest was an abuser. They 5 I would see that more in terms of bishops and religious 5 wouldn't know how to tell their parents because of fear, 6 leaders. 6 because a priest would be on a pedestal, a figure of 7 Q. "Failure of bishops and CoR to grasp the importance of 7 authority, a figure of power. So I think that's where 8 this subject". Would you agree or disagree with that? 8 fear may come from. 9 A. Yes. I think, while guidelines and protocols might be 9 Q. Finally, under the "Threats" heading, it says: 10 agreed by Conference of Bishops as a body, how 10 "NCSC irrelevant." 11 individual bishops and leaders of religious orders then 11 Was there a feeling when you began at the NCSC that 12 implemented or followed them was another matter. 12 you were irrelevant? 13 Q. The bottom bullet point says "Fear". I know that isn't 13 A. I never heard that. I think there was certainly 14 your word, obviously, but was the word "fear" something 14 a discussion about whether we were heard and whether we 15 you detected when you started, or even during your 15 had any real authority or power. 16 tenure at all? 16 Q. Moving away from that document now, I am going to turn 17 A. I think, within the church, there are still people who 17 to paragraph 5 of your statement, Mr Sullivan, which is 18 have a fear of challenging authority because of the 18 on the first page of it, and deal with implementing the 19 power authority can have. 19 Cumberlege recommendations and developing future 20 Q. Who is it that has the fear? 20 strategy. 21 A. Perhaps people who want to challenge a religious leader 21 You say that during your tenure, you carried on the 22 or a bishop. They might fear to do that because they 22 practice of the commission to be led each year in 23 have significant power. I'm not making that as 23 a review of the implementation of Cumberlege by the then 24 a general statement about all bishops and all religious 24 director of CSAS, Adrian Child; is that right? 25 leaders. I think it goes back to an understanding of 25 A. Yes. Page 5 Page 6 1 Q. There was a chart monitoring the progress of each of 1 each other. 2 those? 2 Q. In meetings with the director of CSAS, Mr Child, he 3 A. There is nothing on my screen at the moment. I don't 3 would outline progress and challenges to you and the 4 know if I'm meant to be reading something. 4 board would discuss those points, where appropriate. 5 Q. No, no, I'm just referring you to parts of your witness 5 You say the key point and strategic aim of the NCSC was 6 statement. If it is easier for you to have the document 6 the "One Church" approach; is that right? 7 in front of you -- 7 A. I think that was certainly a key priority. 8 A. No, that's okay. 8 Q. The review that you were undertaking, and I'm looking 9 Q. If I would like to take you to a document, I will 9 now at the bottom of paragraph 5 in your witness 10 signpost that for you. 10 statement, you say that a key aspect was the commitment 11 A lay member of the NCSC that joined after your 11 to recommendation from the Cumberlege Report to a "One 12 tenure has said that, from his perspective, he saw no 12 Church" approach to safeguarding and the challenges that 13 systematic approach to monitoring the implementation of 13 presented.