Wednesday Volume 671 12 February 2020 No. 26

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 12 February 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 835 12 FEBRUARY 2020 836

risk of poverty. But I know how passionate the hon. House of Commons Gentleman is on this issue, and I would be very happy to meet him to hear his concerns. Wednesday 12 February 2020 Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab): The Minister has got to reflect on his answer. Yes, of course he is right about The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock the growth of employment, but the majority of children in poverty in Scotland—230,000 of them—are living in families with parents in work. That is a disgrace. What PRAYERS are this Government going to do about it?

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Will Quince: We do not want to see one individual family or child in poverty.The hon. Gentleman talks about Speaker’s Statement in-work poverty. We are taking action, as a Government, to tackle in-work poverty. Real wages have risen for over a year—22 months in a row—and total wages rose Mr Speaker: The Chairman of Ways and Means has by 3.2%. The national living wage rises to £8.72 in April, asked me to inform the House that she will consider for and we want to go further. That is why the Chancellor selection for the Committee stage of the Terrorist Offenders has announced that the national living wage will rise to (Restriction of Early Release) Bill amendments that can £10.50 by 2024. We also have a focus, through a network be tabled up to and until 1 o’clock today. of jobcentres, on in-work progression.

Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (SNP): Oral Answers to Questions We know that children living in poverty experience poor physical and mental health, employment difficulties, stigma, and chronic low self-esteem. This creates problems not just for the individual but for government further SCOTLAND down the line, so would the Minister surprise us all and welcome the Scottish Government’s introduction of the The Secretary of State was asked— Scottish child payment later this year? Child Poverty Will Quince: I am looking very closely at that measure and its impact. I gently suggest to the hon. Lady that 1. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): What this is in fact evidence of devolution working. There is recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State no monopoly on good ideas, and where the evidence for Work and Pensions on the level of child poverty in suggests that a measure works, we should of course Scotland. [900708] explore it, and I will. I stress that I am committed to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work working with the Scottish Government to improve the andPensions(WillQuince):TheGovernmentarecommitted life chances of people across Scotland, as I am across our to tackling poverty so that we can make a lasting difference whole United Kingdom. to long-term outcomes. This Government have lifted 400,000 people out of absolute poverty since 2010, and Mhairi Black: If this is evidence of devolution working, incomeinequalityhasfallen.WhiletheScottishGovernment I would like to remind the Minister that that is why we have powers to tackle poverty through the devolution of want all the welfare powers devolved to the Scottish skills, education, health and employment programmes, Parliament. Once rolled out, this new payment will help it is important that Scotland’s two Governments work roughly 30,000 children out of poverty. So if it is a good together to address this critical issue. measure for the Scottish Government, why are his Government not following suit? Alex Cunningham: It is estimated that one in four children in Scotland —230,000 of them—are living in Will Quince: I think I have already answered that poverty, and that is substantially higher than in many question—I will look at it very closely. If the Scottish other European countries. Like poor children everywhere, Government are serious about addressing child poverty these children are likely to achieve less in school and more broadly, they should be making full use of the more likely to suffer chronic illness and poor mental powers to reduce housing costs, improve earnings, and health. The Institute for Fiscal Studies predicts that enhance social security.As I said, the Scottish Government child poverty could rise to about 37% by 2021. Does the have powers to tackle poverty through the devolution of Minister not agree that this Tory Government’s welfare skills, education, health and employment programmes. policies, such as the two-child benefit cap, zero-hours In fact, the UK Government do welcome the Scottish contracts and the dreaded universal credit, are contributing Government’s child poverty strategy. I look forward to to the increasing rate of child poverty in Scotland? working very closely with my counterpart in the Scottish Government to ensure that we cover these devolved Will Quince: The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised areas. to hear that I disagree with him. Since 2010 there are over 3.8 million more people in work and 730,000 fewer David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and children growing up in workless households. Over three Tweeddale) (Con): The child poverty payment is welcome, quarters of this employment growth has been in full-time but does the Minister share my concerns that the vast work, which can be proven substantially to reduce the number of welfare powers that the SNP Scottish 837 Oral Answers 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 838

Government argued for, which were transferred in the Mr Jack: No, because I do not know the answer—that Scotland Act 2016, have not been taken forward? In is a perfectly straight answer to a straight question. fact, some of them are now delayed until 2024. Is welfare What I can tell the hon. Gentleman is that the sector not just another victim of the Scottish Government’s deal aims to create 27,000 jobs by 2030. obsession with the constitution, rather than focusing on the day job? Tony Lloyd: I will tell the Secretary of State how many jobs were created: 1,000—in Indonesia. Is the GMB Will Quince: I thank my right hon. Friend and recognise union right in saying that the transportation of those his huge expertise in this area. The Scottish Government, wind turbines from Indonesia to the Fife coast will be and indeed this Government, want to address these the equivalent of 35 million cars on the road? How does issues, and I am committed to working with my that fit our commitment to greening the economy, and counterparts in the Scottish Government to tackle child what confidence can people have in Scotland that jobs poverty and poverty in all its forms. in a wind farm 10 miles off the Fife coast will be created for people in Scotland, not people in Indonesia? Renewable Energy Mr Jack: That is the market economy, and we need to 2. Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): What be better at pricing and better at producing our turbines— recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State that is the straight answer. We will discuss this issue and for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy on the many others at COP 26 in Glasgow later this year, when renewable energy sector in Scotland. [900709] we discuss the climate emergency, but I do not dispute the fact that bringing turbines from Indonesia is not 8. Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): What the answer; we need to find a better way of efficiently recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of delivering them in the UK. State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy on the renewable energy sector in Scotland. [900716] Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): We are 13 minutes in, and I am tempted to ask the Secretary of State—and The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): it is to do with wind, because Saturday was a windy My Department has regular engagement with colleagues day—about us winning the Calcutta cup. [Interruption.] in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Come on! You have to be happy with that. Strategy on a range of issues relevant to Scotland, We have had a balance of payments deficit, with lots including the renewable energy sector. of wind farms in Scotland being paid not to produce any electricity. Is that likely to take place later this year? Cat Smith: Scotland has a huge geographical advantage when it comes to wave and tidal energy, with reports Mr Jack: Obviously I disagree with my hon. Friend suggesting that up to 40,000 jobs could be created in the on the Calcutta cup; that goes without saying. It was a sector if it had Government support. What work is being wet, windy and miserable day at Murrayfield for me. done in Government to explore wave and tidal technology? We are trying to improve the way in which wind works Mr Jack: The hon. Lady is right; we have an advantage for Scotland. Contracts for difference provide certainty with that and with our wind speeds, mountains and for investors over the longevity and protect consumers. hydro schemes.The Government are supporting technology. In October 2019, at the last round of contracts for Wave and tidal technology is being investigated in difference,sixof the12awardedwenttoprojectsinScotland. universities, and we are completely behind that, should it prove to work. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Can my right hon. Friend update the House on the untapped capacity Christian Matheson: My hon. Friend the Member for for using renewables in Scotland, and how many jobs Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat Smith) is right about the would be created as a result of enhancing that capability? geographical advantage. What infrastructure work are theGovernmentundertaking—forexample,interconnectors Mr Jack: There is enormous capability not just with and storage—so that the clean green energy that Scotland more offshore wind schemes, but with more hydro schemes. is able to generate can be shared with the rest of the As I said earlier, we intend to create 27,000 more jobs United Kingdom? through using that untapped capacity.

Mr Jack: As the hon. Gentleman knows, interconnectors Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): are a devolved matter, but we are looking at upgrading Offshore wind and contracts for difference entry was the schemes so that we can transfer our power across cost-free to both the Government and the consumer as the United Kingdom and the advantage that we have in the strike price was below the typical wholesale price, Scotland with renewables and our growing renewable but 240 MW of that remains stranded because Ofgem industry can benefit the whole UK. demands that the island of Lewis has at least 369 MW to build an interconnector cable. Another 180 MW could Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab): The Secretary of State have been consented to, and that would have been will recall that, when EDF was given a licence to cost-free,but they were not consented to due to Government develop the wind farm at Neart na Gaoithe, 10 miles off caps. Can we have some joined-up thinking in the the Fife coast, there was a commitment that 1,000 jobs Government between the interconnector and the contracts would be created in making the jackets for the wind for difference to ensure we are not billowing out fossil turbines. Can he tell the House how many jobs have been fuels when we could instead have 600 MW of wind created? being produced? 839 Oral Answers 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 840

Mr Jack: The hon. Gentleman makes a very fair point. of State think will be required in the event of an One of the things the UK should look at, for future independent Scotland, with a separate currency,a different infrastructure and shared prosperity, is building that regulatory environment and different provisions on trade? interconnector. Mr Jack: The hon. Gentleman makes an exceptionally Trade good point. That is a border we need to avoid, and it makes no sense to have any sort of border between 3. James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): What recent Gretna and Berwick. As for the SNP opposing that, economic assessment his Department has made of the and the opportunity to reduce VAT rates and other value of trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK. things that would help people on the poorest incomes, [900710] I simply do not understand what it is thinking.

12. Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): What recent Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): economic assessment his Department has made of the If the Secretary of State truly values the trade between value of trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK. Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, why is he [900720] prepared to countenance a situation in which we would lose frictionless trade between Scotland and Northern The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): Ireland? Busy day—[HON.MEMBERS: “Ah.”] It appears I have woken a few people up. Mr Jack: As the Prime Minister said, there will be Scottish exports to the rest of the UK increased in “unfettered access” between Scotland and Northern 2018 by £1.2 billion to £51.2 billion. As a result, the rest Ireland and indeed the rest of the United Kingdom. of the UK continues to be Scotland’s largest market for exports, accounting for three times the value of exports Maritime Security to the European Union. 4. Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP): James Sunderland: Given the Secretary of State’s What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State assessment, will he confirm that Scotland’s trade with for Defence on maritime security off the coast of Scotland. the rest of the UK is worth more than three times that [900711] with the EU, and this is only one of the benefits on offer of being part of the United Kingdom, not least for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland British firms? (Douglas Ross): The Scottish Secretary and I regularly meet the Secretary of State for Defence to discuss a Mr Jack: The Scottish Government’s own figures range of issues of importance to Scotland, including show that Scotland’s most important trading partner is maritime security. the rest of the UK and, as my hon. Friend said, that is worth more than three times the trade with the other 27 EU countries combined. In other words, the Scottish Stewart Malcolm McDonald: Not least because of Government’s figures show that over 60% of Scotland’s the Minister’s own constituency, he will understand that exports go to England, Wales and Northern Ireland. there is an obvious breach point in the high north of Indeed, I would argue that this is just one of the many Scotland for adversaries to come into, as has happened benefits that Scotland has from being part of the United before. Can he assure the House that the Scotland Kingdom. Office will be engaging fully with the upcoming integrated defence review, and will he agree to meet me to discuss Greg Smith: Given the excellent figures my right hon. some of the issues that are important to him and to the Friend has just given, does he share my concern that the rest of Scotland? separatist agenda peddled by the SNP is a direct threat to Scottish jobs and that it would inevitably end up, if Douglas Ross: I would be delighted to meet the hon. its dreams come true, in a hard border? Gentleman, and we can continue that discussion about the great investment by the UK Government into Scotland, Mr Jack: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend that and into Moray. Last week we welcomed the first of Nicola Sturgeon’s separatist agenda is a real threat to nine P-8A aircraft, the “Pride of Moray”, which touched Scotland’s jobs, businesses and the economy, and that is down at Kinloss. That is a huge investment by the UK why I am against the First Minister’s demand for another Government and Boeing, and I also put on the record independence referendum. We want 2020 to be a year of the outstanding work done by local firm Robertson, in growth, stability and opportunity for Scotland and for building the Poseidon facility. the whole of the United Kingdom, whereas the SNP wants 2020 to be a year of more political wrangling and David Duguid (Banff and Buchan) (Con): Will the wasteful debate. Minister update the House on his discussions with the Ministry of Defence about the protection of fisheries, Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Labour MSP not just regarding enforcement, but also monitoring? Monica Lennon has introduced the Period Products (Free Provision) (Scotland) Bill to the Scottish Parliament Douglas Ross: That is a devolved issue, and I know to give free provision to women in Scotland, but it is that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural opposed by the SNP Government because of “tampon Affairs, and other Departments, are in continued dialogue raids” by the English into Scotland to steal the products. about that with the Scottish Government, and others. If that is the case, what kind of border does the Secretary My hon. Friend’s longstanding commitment to the 841 Oral Answers 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 842 fishing industry has again been raised in the House, and and strengthen that market. Will he confirm that the he continues to stand up for his constituents in Banff Government will prioritise the UK’s internal market and Buchan on that subject, and on many others. over any future US-UK trade deal that the Prime Minister wants with Donald Trump? Taxation Douglas Ross: I absolutely can because the UK internal 5. Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire) market is so important for this country and Scotland. (Con): What recent discussions he has had with the The Secretary of State has mentioned some figures Scottish Government on the use of its taxation powers. today, and Scotland does 1.5 times more in trade with [900712] the rest of the UK than it does with the EU and the rest of the world combined. The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): UK Government Ministers and officials have regular Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): The financial services discussions with the Scottish Government on matters of sector is a major employer in my Chelmsford constituency, importance, including the Scottish fiscal framework. as well as in Scotland. Will my hon. Friend ensure that That historic arrangement delivers one of the most all parts of the Scottish economy are preserved and powerful and accountable devolved Parliaments in the cared for in our future trade negotiations? world, and it is up to the Scottish Government to use those powers wisely further to increase the economic Douglas Ross: Absolutely. The future of Scotland’s prosperity of Scotland. economy and the UK economy will be buoyant, and as we leave the European Union we want to ensure that all our sectors continue to thrive. I assure my hon. Friend Mr Jayawardena: Does my right hon. Friend agree that we in the Scotland Office will do everything possible that the Scottish Government’s decision to make Scotland to facilitate those discussions. the highest taxed part of the United Kingdom is not only regrettable but yet another broken SNP promise? Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): The response we have heard from the Government Mr Jack: It goes without saying that I agree with my Front Bench today might explain why the Minister has hon. Friend, and it is disappointing that Scottish taxpayers lost half of his Scottish colleagues, why the SNP is at who earn more than £27,000 will pay more tax in 51% in the polls and why the majority of the Scottish Scotland than they would in the rest of the UK. people now want independence. In the real world, the Furthermore, taxpayers in Scotland will pay 41% income Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster says that border tax on earnings between £43,500 and £50,000, compared checks are now inevitable for almost everybody because with just 20% in the rest of the UK. That means that a of the Government’s disastrous Brexit. How will this help police officer with 10 years’ experience—mid thirties; Scottish business? bringing up a family—will pay 21% more tax on earnings between £43,500 and £50,000 in Scotland than they Douglas Ross: The hon. Gentleman mentions the real would pay in the rest of the UK. world, so let us look at the real world in Scotland where the SNP is in power: we have bridges that people cannot Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP): get across; we have hospitals that it cannot open; and Will the Secretary of State acknowledge that for the we have an education system that is failing. That is the third consecutive year more than half of Scottish income record that the Scottish Government and the SNP will tax payers will pay less tax than taxpayers in the UK? have to go to the people in a little over 15 months’ time. Will he explain to those UK taxpayers why his Government I look forward to that election, when what the Scottish is ripping them off? Government and the SNP have done to Scotland since 2007 will have an impact on the result. Mr Jack: That figure about less tax is correct—about 56% of Scots will pay less tax. [Interruption.] Before Fisheries the Scottish nationalists become over-jubilant, I point out that that is the grand amount of 40p per week. 7. Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): What steps he is taking to support the Scottish fishing Leaving the EU sector. [900715]

6. Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): What recent The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland assessment his Department has made of the (a) economic (Douglas Ross): Thank you very much. I am busy today, and (b) social effect on Scotland of the UK leaving Mr Speaker. the EU. [900713] At the end of 2020, we automatically take control of our waters. This opens up a sea of opportunity for our The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland fishing industry in Scotland, and across the UK. As I (Douglas Ross): Now that we have left the European have said before, this Government will work tirelessly Union, we are free to determine our own future. We with our fishermen and coastal communities across want 2020 to be a year of economic and social growth Scotland. for Scotland and the rest of the UK. Andrew Bridgen: Can my hon. Friend confirm that by Ruth Jones: The Secretary of State has stated in the becoming an independent coastal state once again we Chamber that the UK internal market represents the will be able to deliver a better deal for fishermen across majority of Scotland’s total export market, and it is the United Kingdom, and that ultimately we will control therefore vital that he makes provision to develop who fishes in our waters? 843 Oral Answers 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 844

Douglas Ross: I can confirm that we will no longer be Mr Jack: There already has been a Barnett consequential bound by the EU’s outdated and unfair method for relating to HS2 spending. In the next spending round, sharing fishing opportunities. We will set our own fishing we will see what money is allocated to the Department for quotas, based on science, and decide who can fish in our Transport. That money will have a Barnett consequential. waters. I have to say that I share my hon. Friend’s optimism for the future of our industry, and it is an Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): Over optimism that I have heard time and time again from the weekend, Kingsbarns distillery in my constituency fishermen and fishing communities the length and breadth won the “Best Lowlands Scotch, 12 years and Under” of Scotland. award at the world whisky awards. However, the impact of US tariffs continues to impede the growth of the Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Scotch whisky industry in my constituency and across (SNP): Can the Secretary of State reveal whether the Scotland. Will the forthcoming Budget include provisions UK Government’sstated intention of agreeing a mechanism to help our distilleries to compete internationally, despite of co-operation within the EU on fishing will include those stifling tariffs? an extended agreement on access to waters as part of an Mr Jack: I know that the hon. Lady has a lot of EU trade deal? experience of this, having formerly worked for Diageo. The 25% tariffs on malt whisky are a consequence of Douglas Ross: Clearly we are in discussions about the Boeing-Airbus dispute between the EU and the this, but we have a positive vision for our fishing industry USA. In the next carousel, by having useful negotiations in Scotland now that we have left the European Union. on a US trade deal, we want to get those tariffs removed. How does that reflect on the SNP’s vision for fishing in Scotland, which is to take us back into the European Union, to be shackled once again by the common fisheries policy? That is something that many Scots and PRIME MINISTER many fishermen voted comprehensively to leave, but the SNP wants to put us right back in. The Prime Minister was asked—

Budget Engagements Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): If he will 9.JohnStevenson(Carlisle)(Con):Whatrecentdiscussions list his official engagements for Wednesday 12 February. he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the forthcoming Budget. [900717] The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): The whole House will want to join me in sending our deepest sympathies The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): to all those affected by the weekend’s flooding. My right I have regular discussions with all my Cabinet colleagues hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Housing, on issues important to Scotland’s economy, including Communities and Local Government has announced the forthcoming Budget in March. The Government will the activation of the Government’s emergency Bellwin deliver a Budget for Scotland’s businesses and Scotland’s scheme to provide financial support for qualifying affected people. We will set out ambitious plans to unleash areas in the north of England, and we continue to work Britain’s potential, and level up across the nations and closely with our partners to help those affected and, regions of the UK. above all, to keep people safe. This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues John Stevenson: Given the close economic relationship and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I between the south of Scotland and the north of England, shall hold further such meetings later today. particularly within the borderlands region, will the Minister make representations to the Chancellor on and give his Security, Defence and Foreign Policy Review support to a freeport at the Carlisle Lake District airport? Q1. [900758] Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): If he will take steps to ensure that the security, defence Mr Jack: I welcome the recent freeports announcement, and foreign policy review is completed before the and I have no doubt that freeports will unleash the comprehensive spending review. potential of our proud historic ports, boosting and The Prime Minister: We will continue to transform regenerating communities across the UK. I and other the UK economy through the Budget in March and the Ministers on the Front Bench—the Chancellor is here— comprehensive spending review later this year. The timing have heard my hon. Friend’s early representations on of that integrated review will be announced shortly. behalf of his airport and his area. Not only is he a great champion for the borderlands, but he is a great champion Dr Lewis: I am grateful for that reply. May I urge the for the Carlisle Lake District airport. Prime Minister to recall what happened to the last combined security and defence review, which was done Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): Page 64 within a straitjacket of fiscal neutrality? It meant that of the 2015 statement of funding policy document every extra pound spent on cyber or security was a confirms that HS2 should have 100% Barnett consequentials pound to be cut from the conventional armed forces. for Scotland. Will the Secretary of State ask for those Therefore, will he try to ensure that the next attempt at Barnett consequentials, roughly £750 million in relation a combined security and defence review will not face to what is being spent on HS2, to be delivered in the such a straitjacket and will be concluded before rather Budget? than after the comprehensive spending review? 845 Oral Answers 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 846

The Prime Minister: I understand very well the point The Prime Minister: The whole House will know that that my right hon. Friend makes. I can assure him that the Foreign Secretary and I, and the Government at the integrated review will be the deepest review of every level, have tirelessly sought the extradition of Britain’s security, defence and foreign policy since the Anne Sacoolas for justice in this country, and we will cold war. I can also assure him that by transforming continue to do so. this country’s economy and by raising productivity, we will ensure that both defence and security are amply Jeremy Corbyn: It is widely reported that Anne Sacoolas provided for. is in fact a CIA operative. Now we know that the Foreign Secretary misled the Dunn family, who are being Engagements denied justice by the US Government, will the Prime Minister commit to his removal from office tomorrow Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I join the in his reshuffle? Prime Minister in expressing sympathy and support to the victims of flooding and thank the Environment The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman knows Agency and all the emergency services that are doing very well that the Foreign Office has been told that their best to help people. Anne Sacoolas was notified to the UK Government as Our thoughts are also with those who suffer from the a spouse with no official role. We will continue, without coronavirus and with the Chinese community in this fear or favour, to seek justice for Harry Dunn and his country, who are, I am sorry to say, facing increasingly family, and we will continue to seek the extradition of alarming levels of racism within our country. As this Anne Sacoolas from the United States. virus spreads, I also thank public health workers who are helping those affected and raising awareness of the Jeremy Corbyn: This morning Charlotte Charles, Harry’s danger of the virus. mum, said: “We thought we had bridged the gap with Does the Prime Minister think that someone who the Government. But they have not been honest with came to this country at the age of five, was the victim of us”. This is only the latest case of our country’s one-sided county lines grooming and compelled to carry drugs, extradition treaty with the USA. This lopsided treaty was released five years ago and has never reoffended means the US can request extradition in circumstances deserves to be deported? that Britain cannot. While the US continues to deny justice to Harry Dunn, will the Prime Minister commit The Prime Minister: I think the whole country would today to seeking an equal and balanced extradition agree that, while I cannot comment on individual cases, relationship with the United States? it is entirely right that foreign national offenders should be deported from this country in accordance with the law. The Prime Minister: To be frank, I think the right hon. Gentleman has a point in his characterisation of Jeremy Corbyn: The Government have learned absolutely our extradition arrangements with the United States. I nothing from the Windrush scandal. This cruel and do think that elements of that relationships are unbalanced, callous Government are trying to mislead the British and it is certainly worth looking at, but that is totally people into thinking that they are solely deporting different from the case of Harry Dunn and Anne Sacoolas. foreign nationals who are guilty of murder, rape and We continue to seek the extradition of Anne Sacoolas other very serious offences. This is clearly not the case. to face justice in this country. Take the example of a young black boy who came to the UK aged five and is now being deported after serving Jeremy Corbyn: It has everything to do with the time for a drugs offence. If there was a case of a young relationship with the USA that Anne Sacoolas has not white boy with blond hair who later dabbled in class A been extradited back to Britain, because the US refuses drugs and conspired with a friend to beat up a journalist, to do it because of this lopsided treaty. I am glad the would the Prime Minister deport that boy; or is it one Prime Minister at least acknowledges that point about rule for young black boys from the Caribbean and the treaty. This deep disparity with the US is about to be another for white boys from the United States? laid bare, when the courts decide whether the WikiLeaks publisher Julian Assange will be extradited to the US The Prime Minister: Quite frankly, I think the right on charges of espionage and for exposing war crimes, hon. Gentleman demeans himself and besmirches the including the murder of civilians and large-scale corruption. reputation of the Windrush generation, who came to Does the Prime Minister agree with the parliamentary this country to work in our public services, to teach our report that is going to the Council of Europe that this children and to make lives better for the people of this extradition should be opposed and the rights of journalists country. He has no right to conflate them with the and whistleblowers upheld for the good of us all? foreign national offenders we are deporting today. The Prime Minister: I am not going to comment on Jeremy Corbyn: The Windrush generation have been any individual case, but it is obvious that the rights of disgracefully treated by a Government who deliberately journalists and whistleblowers should be upheld, and created a hostile environment. While the Government this Government will clearly continue to do that. were fighting to deport people who legally came to this country as children, the Foreign Secretary refused to Q2. [900759] Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con): My wife tell the family of Harry Dunn the reason the US is is a volunteer with the local branch of the Samaritans, blocking the extradition of the woman who is alleged to and my right hon. Friend will know what good work have killed him. I now ask the Prime Minister straight: they do in helping to keep people safe online in Sedgefield is Anne Sacoolas being shielded from justice because and the rest of the UK. Does he agree that today’s she is a former CIA officer? announcement that we are putting Ofcom at the helm 847 Oral Answers 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 848 of a strong regulatory regime shows that we are delivering and other stakeholders is that short-term solutions do on our commitment to make the UK the safest place in not work. Violence reduction units are a welcome first the world to be online? step, but they need long-term funding and leadership from the top. Will the Prime Minister commit to that The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for funding, and will he attend our report launch to hear raising that point. As we deliver gigabit broadband to directly from victims and experts how we can get to grips every part of this country, including to the people of with this crisis? Sedgefield, we will also ensure that the UK is the safest place to be online. The Prime Minister: I think the hon. Lady is right: we have to do both, which is why we are putting £200 million Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): In into the Youth Endowment Fund as well as supporting northern Syria, displaced women and their children are violence reduction units. Weare also putting 20,000 police literally freezing to death. There are reports of babies dying on the streets of this country, and giving them the as a result of the extreme conditions, and 45,000 people powers, which the Leader of the Opposition opposes, to remain stranded with nowhere to go. The Syrian war is take knives off the streets with stop and search. considered to have caused the biggest wave of displacement Q5. [900762] Damien Moore (Southport) (Con): The since the second world war. Can the Prime Minister tell Prime Minister has made transport connectivity a priority the House what responsibility his Government have for the Government. Does he agree that connecting my taken for this humanitarian crisis? constituency of Southport with Preston through the Burscough curve link would not only give my constituents The Prime Minister: As I think the whole House will more access to the rail network, but help us to unleash know, and as I have said several times in the House, the our economic potential? UK leads the world in supporting humanitarian relief efforts in Syria. This country has committed £3.2 billion The Prime Minister: I congratulate my hon. Friend to that cause. on his campaign for the restoration of the Burscough curves. That sounds to me like a great idea. What he Ian Blackford: My question was about the children needs to do is put forward a costed business plan, and I who are literally freezing to death. That was not an answer am sure that my right hon. Friend the Transport Secretary from the Prime Minister. will look at it very carefully. In 2017, as Foreign Secretary, this Prime Minister enacted a policy of accepting the Syrian dictator Assad’s Q6. [900763] Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and rule over the country. Assad has delivered death and Sunderland West) (Lab): Does the Prime Minister agree destruction to his people—a man who has gassed his own with me and 10,800 of my constituents who signed civilians. The humanitarian situation has reached crisis petitions, that the building of a gasification plant in point, and there are now fears of all-out war.Is the message Washington would be terrible for the people of Sunderland, that the Prime Minister wants to send from the House due to the public health concerns, and air quality, and today that the UK Government are washing their hands would indeed be a blot on the landscape of Sunderland, of the Syrian people, and that he is content for Assad’s and that now as a frequent visitor to Sunderland, I’m regime to continue enacting these atrocities? sure he shares my concerns on this matter? Will he therefore support me and my constituents, who oppose The Prime Minister: I really think the right hon. the building of this plant? Gentleman needs to consult his memory better. He would find that this country and this Government have persistently The Prime Minister: I will certainly look into the matter called for the end of the Assad regime, and indeed have that the hon. Lady raises. We will ensure, of course, that led the world in denouncing the cruelty of the regime if there is a problem with the gasification plant that she towards Assad’s own people. That has continuously describes, Sunderland will continue to prosper and to been the policy of the British Government. lead the UK economy.

Q3. [900760] Dean Russell (Watford) (Con): Will the Q12. [900769] Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con): Blyth has Prime Minister join me in supporting a new initiative I the potential to become one of the most strategically am launching in my constituency to train mental health important ports in the UK for the export of renewable first aiders in schools, workplaces and the community technology as well as wind turbines. Would my right throughout the constituency to tackle loneliness and hon. Friend consider visiting Blyth, where I am sure he challenge mental health stigma, and may I ask whether would get a warm Northern welcome— he could find time in his diary to join me at the launch? The Prime Minister rose— The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for what Ian Levy: —and see for himself the strength of Blyth he is doing to champion mental health services in to become a freeport? Watford. We are massively increasing support for good mental health in schools, and, if I can, I will do my best Mr Speaker: I think the Prime Minister had the answer to attend the launch event. ready.

Q4. [900761] Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) The Prime Minister: The answer was in the question, (Lab): After three years of extensive evidence-gathering Mr Speaker. My hon. Friend makes an excellent point and research, on 26 March the Youth Violence Commission about the potential of Blyth, although I must remind will publish its final recommendations. The overwhelming him that the allocation of free ports will be decided in verdict of victims, youth workers, community leaders an entirely fair and transparent way. 849 Oral Answers 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 850

Q7. [900764] Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co- It has been starved of capital investment and it is short op): Every day, an estimated 280 shopworkers will be of intensive treatment unit beds. It is expected to have victims of violence at work. At my local Co-op, a staff close to a £100 million deficit by the end of the financial member was hit with a glass bottle. The Co-op is a good year—one of the highest in the NHS. When does the employer, and it wants this to stop, so it and other local Prime Minister expect Northwick Park to receive a little retailers engaged with the Government’s call for evidence Government love and attention? on violence towards shop staff. Seven and a half months later, they are awaiting a response. Prime Minister, will The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman raises an you commit today to publishing your response to the important point, but as he will know, the highest-ever call for evidence, and will you meet me and a group of number of people attended A&E in this country last shopworkers who have experienced violence at work to month—2 million people. The demand is exceptional, hear about what happened to them? and I pay tribute to the work of NHS staff. As he knows, we in this Government are responding with a The Prime Minister: I certainly will make that record investment in the NHS of £34 billion, and we are undertaking to the hon. Gentleman. I am glad that he recruiting 50,000 more nurses, which will help to deal has raised this matter. We should not tolerate crimes of with that crisis. violence against shopworkers or indeed anybody else. I therefore find it paradoxical that the leader of his party Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): In the past is soft on the deportation of serious violent offenders. week, Storm Ciara has wreaked havoc along West Yorkshire’s Calder Valley, affecting the constituencies Q14. [900771] Alan Mak (Havant) (Con): This year, we of Members across the House. Will my right hon. mark the 75th anniversaries of VE-day and VJ-day. As Friend the Prime Minister seek to find time to visit my we honour those who have served our country, will constituency? Horbury Bridge, where “Onward Christians my right hon. Friend outline how his new Office for Soldiers” was penned, has been acutely affected. Will he Veterans Affairs is giving our veterans and their families see for himself the terrible damage done to people’s the support they deserve? homes, lives and businesses? Will he tread where the saints of our communities and emergency services have The Prime Minister: Our new Office for Veterans trod and continue to toil undivided towards recovery? Affairs is helping veterans to transition to new jobs and to secure homes. A discount railcard will be rolled out The Prime Minister: I pay tribute to the emergency by Armistice day, and veterans will get guaranteed services for what they are doing in my hon. Friend’s interviews for civil service jobs so that we have more constituency and, indeed, in all flood-affected areas. As veterans bringing their talents to government. he knows, we have activated the Bellwin scheme to protect homeowners, and we are putting £4 billion into Q8. [900765] Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) flood defences. I certainly will do what I can to take up (SNP): The Prime Minister’s junior Scotland Office his offer to visit his constituency and see the scene for Minister told the National Farmers Union last week myself. that substandard food would be allowed into the UK under a US trade deal, but that it would have to be Q10. [900767] Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): labelled as such. The Prime Minister has denied this in The new daily allowance for the unelected and the past, so who is telling the truth and which of them unaccountable Peers being stuffed into the House of does not know what is coming? Lords by the Prime Minister is set to rise to £323. The monthly allowance for a single person over 25 on The Prime Minister: I can assure the hon. Lady that universal credit is £317.82. Is that the levelling up that the UK has and will continue to have the highest standards the Prime Minister keeps talking about? in the world for our food.

Q15. [900772] Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con): In The Prime Minister: I hate agreeing with these people, Greater Manchester, frontline police officers are but I do find it odd that the House of Lords has chosen increasingly having to resort to using a pen and paper to do that, but it is a decision for them. because of the failing iOPS computer system. This is putting the police at risk and undermining their ability Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): The to protect residents and vulnerable children. Will my Prime Minister was instrumental in banning the trade right hon. Friend the Prime Minister intervene to solve in ivory in this country. Will he be equally decisive in this problem? getting rid of the importation of hunting trophies into this country, particularly of endangered animals? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is, I am afraid, entirely right. We know that there are concerns about The Prime Minister: Yes, I thank my hon. Friend for this system, and that is why I have asked the Minister her campaign against illegal wildlife trading and trophy for Crime, Policing and the Fire Service, my hon. Friend hunting, and we mean to end the import into this the Member for North West Hampshire (Kit Malthouse), country of trophies hunted elsewhere. to ask Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary for an independent review of the operation of the system. Q11. [900768] Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP): In We will ensure that my hon. Friend is kept informed. 2018, Lubov Chernukhin, the wife of Vladimir Putin’s former deputy Finance Minister, paid £20,000 for Q9. [900766] Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): lunch with the then Scottish Conservative leader, Ruth Northwick Park Hospital, which serves my constituents, Davidson, who we believe is soon to be ennobled. Will has not met its four-hour A&E target since August 2014. the Prime Minister remind the House once more why 851 Oral Answers 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 852 his Government are yet to publish the Intelligence so when will the Government obey the rule of law and and Security Committee’s report into alleged Russian legislate to respond both to that ruling and to the interference in UK politics? similar ruling by the Supreme Court in the McLaughlin case in 2018? Will there be no further delay so that we The Prime Minister: As I think the hon. Gentleman can start supporting the thousands of similar children knows very well, the report will be published as soon as across our country every year who lose their mother or the Intelligence and Security Committee is reconvened. father? As I have told the House several times, those of a conspiratorial cast of mind will be disappointed by its The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman has findings. raised this with me before, and I have undertaken to meet him on the matter. We will certainly look at the Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): May I commend the case he mentions to see what exactly our response Prime Minister for his belief in Britain and the massive should be. He is right to draw attention to this injustice, boost to infrastructure investment around the country? and we will do all we can to remedy it. However, the cost of landing fees at Heathrow airport is £25 per passenger, and those fees will rise with a third Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): On Thursday last week, runway,leading to Heathrow becoming the least competitive two people were stabbed in Redcar in broad daylight. airport on the entire planet. Given the delays and the Another person was injured in a horrific knife crime on escalating costs, does the Prime Minister agree that it Saturday evening outside a busy nightclub. Figures may well be time to review progress and perhaps to released by the Ministry of Justice in January show that deploy the bulldozers elsewhere in the country? the Cleveland force area has the highest number of knife and offensive weapon offences per head of population The Prime Minister: The House of Commons voted in all of England and Wales. What additional support effectively to give outline planning consent to the third can my right hon. Friend give to Cleveland police to runway.It was supported by people across the Chamber— tackle this problem, and when will we start to see more not by me, as it happens. I wait to see the outcome of police on the streets of Teesside? the various legal processes that are currently under way to see whether the promoters of the third runway can The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for satisfy their legal obligations under air quality and, raising this. Knife crime is intolerable, and its recent rise indeed, noise pollution. must be combated. That is why we brought in knife crime prevention orders, which give police the powers, Q13. [900770] Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and where they suspect a knife crime is about to be committed, Sunderland South) (Lab): Since 2015, the number of to make the interventions that are needed. That is why GPs working in Sunderland has fallen by 16%—much we are putting 20,000 more police on our streets, with higher than the national average. After almost a decade the encouragement and the political support they need of Tory control, our GP services are inadequate and to carry out stop and search. getting worse, so who does the Prime Minister hold responsible? Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): The Oxford- Cambridge so-called expressway is a 20th-century The Prime Minister: We are, of course, responsible, roadbuilding solution to a 21st-century challenge, and and we take full responsibility, but overall GP numbers at the election Labour rightly pledged to scrap it. I are up and we are now recruiting 6,000 more. We are wonder whether the Prime Minister has caught up with able to do that because we are running a sound economy us. Will he announce today whether the expressway has and investing massively in our NHS across the whole finally been put to rest and scrapped? country. The Prime Minister: I must ask the hon. Gentleman Robert Courts (Witney) (Con): As the coronavirus to wait and contain his impatience until the Budget, hits the headlines every day, will the Prime Minister join when he will learn more about the national infrastructure me in thanking and paying tribute to the supreme plan. professionalism of those at Public Health England and, in my area, to RAF Brize Norton for bringing home Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I support the people who have been affected? Their work often goes Prime Minister’s decision yesterday to go ahead with unremarked, but it has the admiration of all of us. HS2, although I have to tell him there is little enthusiasm among my constituents because it does nothing to The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend puts it beautifully, improveconnectivitytoCleethorpes.Tobuildupenthusiasm and I salute everybody involved in bringing home the among the people of Cleethorpes, may I urge him: to victims and potential victims of coronavirus for the instruct London North Eastern Railway to reintroduce difficulties and risks they face. Indeed, our NHS has so the direct train service from Cleethorpes through to far done an outstanding job in preparing and informing King’sCross; to make the Gainsborough-Brigg-Cleethorpes the country. service, which at present runs one day a week, into a seven-day service; to manufacture the rails at Scunthorpe; Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): and, of course, to reopen Suggitts Lane level crossing? When Kevin Simpson’s partner of over 12 years died and his two children lost their mother, the family received The Prime Minister: The voice of Cleethorpes has no bereavement support payments at all. Because the been heard, and my hon. Friend makes a vivid and parents were unmarried, the law denied that support to compelling case. As I stood up to answer, the Chancellor the two grieving children. The High Court ruled last whispered in my ear that we will certainly be looking at Friday that this breached the children’s human rights, it in the infrastructure review. 853 Oral Answers 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 854

Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): King’s Mill in Ashfield, at a cost of £1 million a week, The prosperous future of our young people all too often are nothing short of a national scandal? Will he please depends on their family wellbeing and their school ensure that this never happens again? readiness, which requires investment in early years. Does the Prime Minister regret the Conservative cuts to around The Prime Minister: It was one of the many scandals 1,000 Sure Start centres, including in my constituency? of the last Labour Government. From memory, the PFI Will he commit to greater funding and support for early deals that they did saddled the taxpayer with £80 billion- years development, particularly in our most deprived worth of debts in exchange for £12 billion-worth of communities? hospital assets. That is how Labour runs government. That is how Labour runs the economy. Let’s not let it The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady raises an important happen again. point, and this is why we are putting record sums into IanPaisley(NorthAntrim)(DUP):WillthePrimeMinister early years funding—£14 billion is going into education. bring to an end the sickening outrage of a witch hunt It is under this Government that people will see the against former police officers who served Ulster through biggest improvements, because it is under this Government the heat of the troubles and who will now face the most that we have a robust, strong, dynamic economy—the odious prosecutions for non-criminal misconduct? That third fastest growing in the G7. We are able to make those would not be tolerated in this part of the United Kingdom investments in early years precisely because of our sensible and it should not be tolerated in mine. management of the economy. The Prime Minister: We will make sure that we give Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con): Does the Prime Minister support for all those who face unnecessary prosecution, agree that the private finance initiative deals signed by and I am well aware of the issue that the hon. Gentleman the last Labour Government to build hospitals such as raises. 855 12 FEBRUARY 2020 856

Point of Order Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of Early Release) Bill (Business of the House) 12.31 pm Motion made and Question proposed, Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): That the following provisions shall apply to the proceedings on On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Today, the Equality the Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of Early Release) Bill— and Human Rights Commission has started legal action Timetable against the Department of Health and Social Care for its failure to move 2,200 autistic people and people with (1) (a) Proceedings on Second Reading and in Committee of the whole House, any proceedings on Consideration and learning disabilities out of inappropriate in-patient units. proceedings up to and including Third Reading shall be taken at Separately, we have the Government’s response to the today’s sitting in accordance with this Order. learning disabilities mortality review, a review that has (b) Proceedings on Second Reading shall be brought to a shockingly found that people with learning disabilities conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) four are dying, on average, 25 years earlier than the rest of hours after the commencement of proceedings on the the population. It seems that improving care for people Motion for this Order. with learning disabilities and autistic people is not a (c) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House, any priority for this Government, who have made no statement proceedings on Consideration and proceedings up to in the House on these important issues so far. Have you and including Third Reading shall be brought to a been given an indication that a Minister plans to make a conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) six statement on these important issues? hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order. Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Lady for giving me Timing of proceedings and Questions to be put notice on this important matter. It is not a point of (2) When the Bill has been read a second time: order for the Chair; it is for Departments to make (a) it shall, despite Standing Order No. 63 (Committal of statements. I am sure that people will have listened to bills not subject to a programme order), stand committed what she has had to say, but it is for others, certainly not to a Committee of the whole House without any for me, to come forward with a statement. Question being put; (b) the Speaker shall leave the Chair whether or not notice of an Instruction has been given. (3) (a) On the conclusion of proceedings in Committee of the whole House, the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House without putting any Question. (b) If the Bill is reported with amendments, the House shall proceed to consider the Bill as amended without any Question being put. (4) If, following proceedings in Committee of the whole House and any proceedings on Consideration of the Bill, a legislative grand committee withholds consent to the Bill or any Clause or Schedule of the Bill or any amendment made to the Bill, the House shall proceed to Reconsideration of the Bill without any Question being put, unless a Minister of the Crown nominates a future day for Reconsideration. (5) If, following Reconsideration of the Bill: (a) a legislative grand committee withholds consent to any Clause or Schedule of the Bill or any amendment made to the Bill (but does not withhold consent to the whole Bill and, accordingly, the Bill is amended in accordance with Standing Order No. 83N(6)), and (b) a Minister of the Crown indicates his or her intention to move a minor or technical amendment to the Bill, the House shall proceed to consequential Consideration of the Bill without any Question being put. (6) For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph (1), the Chairman or Speaker shall forthwith put the following Questions in the same order as they would fall to be put if this Order did not apply: (a) any Question already proposed from the Chair; (b) any Question necessary to bring to a decision a Question so proposed; (c) the Question on any amendment moved or Motion made by a Minister of the Crown; (d) any other Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded; and shall not put any other questions, other than the question on any motion described in paragraph 17(a) of this Order. (7) On a Motion so made for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the Chairman or Speaker shall put only the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill. 857 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 858 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill (8) If two or more Questions would fall to be put under (19) The start of any debate under Standing Order No. 24 paragraph (6)(c) on successive amendments moved or Motions (Emergency debates) to be held on a day on which the Bill has made by a Minister of the Crown, the Chairman or Speaker shall been set down to be taken as an Order of the Day shall be instead put a single Question in relation to those amendments or postponed until the conclusion of any proceedings on that day to Motions. which this Order applies. (9) If two or more Questions would fall to be put under (20) Proceedings to which this Order applies shall not be paragraph (6)(d) in relation to successive provisions of the Bill, interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of the Chairman shall instead put a single Question in relation to the House. those provisions, except that the Question shall be put separately (21) (a) Any private business which has been set down for on any Clause of or Schedule to the Bill which a Minister of the consideration at a time falling after the commencement of Crown has signified an intention to leave out. proceedings on this Order or on the Bill on a day on which the Consideration of Lords Amendments Bill has been set down to be taken as an Order of the Day shall, instead of being considered as provided by Standing Orders or (10) (a) Any Lords Amendments to the Bill may be considered by any Order of the House, be considered at the conclusion of forthwith without any Question being put; and any proceedings the proceedings on that Bill on that day. interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly. (b) Standing Order 15(1) (Exempted business) shall apply (b) Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments to the private business so far as necessary for the shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought purpose of securing that the business may be considered to a conclusion one hour after their commencement; for a period of three hours.—(Robert Buckland.) and any proceedings suspended under sub-paragraph (a) shall thereupon be resumed. Mr Speaker: I should inform the House that I have (11) Paragraphs (2) to (11) of Standing Order No. 83F selected a manuscript amendment to the motion in the (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on consideration name of Alistair Carmichael. of Lords amendments) apply for the purposes of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph (10) of this Order. 12.33 pm Subsequent stages Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): (12) (a) Any further Message from the Lords on the Bill may I beg to move a manuscript amendment, in paragraph (6), be considered forthwith without any Question being put; and any after sub-paragraph (b) insert— proceedings interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended “(ba) the question on any amendment, new clause or new accordingly. schedule selected by the chairman or Speaker for separate decision;”. (b) Proceedings on any further Message from the Lords The Secretary of State will be aware that the business shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought motion that he has just moved, without any explanation to a conclusion one hour after their commencement; whatsoever,replicates the provisions of Standing Order 83D and any proceedings suspended under sub-paragraph faithfully in every respect bar one, which is that it omits (a) shall thereupon be resumed. the contents of Standing Order 83D(2)(c), which provides (13) Paragraphs (2) to (9) of Standing Order No. 83G (Programme that at the conclusion of proceedings the Question may orders: conclusion of proceedings on further messages from the be put on Lords) apply for the purposes of bringing any proceedings to a “any amendment, new clause or new schedule selected by the conclusion in accordance with paragraph (12) of this Order. chair for separate decision”. Reasons Committee The effect of the omission of that provision from the (14) Paragraphs (2) to (6) of Standing Order No. 83H business motion before the House is that if the debate (Programme orders: reasons committee) apply in relation to any continues until the conclusion of the time allowed in the committee to be appointed to draw up reasons after proceedings business motion, there will be no Division on any have been brought to a conclusion in accordance with this Order. amendments moved in Committee. Miscellaneous At the very least, the House is entitled to hear an (15) Standing Order No. 15(1) (Exempted business) shall apply explanation from those on the Treasury Bench as to why to proceedings on the Bill. we should see your power restricted in that way,Mr Speaker. (16) Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee) shall not It may be that ultimately this is all academic—it may be apply in relation to any proceedings to which this Order applies. that we conclude proceedings before the expiry of time, (17) (a) No Motion shall be made, except by a Minister of the or it may be that there will simply be no amendment Crown, to alter the order in which any proceedings on the Bill are that anybody wishes to move at the conclusion of taken, to recommit the Bill or to vary or supplement the provisions proceedings—but there remains an important point of of this Order. principle at stake, which is that surely we should hear (b) No notice shall be required of such a Motion. the debate first before we make decisions of that sort, and that if it is the will of the House at the conclusion (c) Such a Motion may be considered forthwith without of the time allowed, then you, Mr Speaker, should have any Question being put; and any proceedings interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly. the power to put any Question from the Chair. It is entirely regrettable that the Secretary of State, in moving (d) The Question on such a Motion shall be put forthwith; the motion, did not offer any explanation to the House and any proceedings suspended under sub-paragraph as to why the Government, through us, should seek to (c) shall thereupon be resumed. fetter your power in this way. (e) Standing Order No. 15(1) (Exempted business) shall It is worth bearing in mind that although what the apply to proceedings on such a Motion. Government are doing today in bringing forward a Bill (18) (a) No dilatory Motion shall be made in relation to and going through all its stages in one day is not by proceedings to which this Order applies except by a Minister of any means unusual, it is still quite extraordinary. The the Crown. Government rely on co-operation from all parts of the (b) The Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith. House in order to do that. They have had that co-operation, 859 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 860 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill so why do they now seek to restrict the power that you, Andrew, Stuart Davison, Dehenna Mr Speaker, have to call Divisions at the end of the Argar, Edward Dinenage, Caroline Committee stage? Atherton, Sarah Dines, Miss Sarah Atkins, Victoria Djanogly, Mr Jonathan 12.37 pm Bacon, Mr Gareth Docherty, Leo Bacon, Mr Richard Donelan, Michelle The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Dorries, Ms Nadine (Robert Buckland): I listened carefully to the right hon. cast by Leo Docherty) Double, Steve Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), Bailey, Shaun Dowden, rh Oliver who speaks with years of experience, shall we say, as Baillie, Siobhan Doyle-Price, Jackie somebody who had direct responsibility, at least partly, Baker, Duncan Drax, Richard for this issue during his time in coalition. I simply say to Baker, Mr Steve Duddridge, James him that although I am not accusing him of having an Baldwin, Harriett Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Barclay, rh Steve Dunne, rh Philip unreasonable approach, we do view the business motion Baron, Mr John Eastwood, Mark as meeting the test of reasonableness, bearing in mind Baynes, Simon Ellis, rh Michael that these are exceptional circumstances and we would Bell, Aaron Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias not depart from normal proceedings lightly. We want to Beresford, Sir Paul Elphicke, Mrs Natalie make sure that the time we have for debate is maximised, Bhatti, Saqib Eustice, George which is important when we bear in mind the issue of Blackman, Bob Evennett, rh Sir David Divisions. For those reasons we judge it appropriate on Blunt, Crispin Everitt, Ben this occasion to depart from normal proceedings. Bone, Mr Peter Fabricant, Michael I know that the right hon. Gentleman will probably Bowie, Andrew Farris, Laura Bradley, Ben Fell, Simon not accept the explanation I give him, but at least the Bradley, rh Karen Fletcher, Katherine very fact that he has moved this manuscript amendment— Brady, Sir Graham Fletcher, Mark although I note that we have not heard the same objection Braverman, Suella Fletcher, Nick from other parts of the House—has made the Government Brereton, Jack Ford, Vicky explain their position. These are exceptional circumstances, Bridgen, Andrew Foster, Kevin and for that reason I urge him respectfully to withdraw Brine, Steve Francois, rh Mr Mark the amendment. Bristow, Paul (Proxy vote cast Frazer, Lucy Question put, That the amendment be made. by Leo Docherty) Freeman, George Britcliffe, Sara Freer, Mike The House divided: Ayes 51, Noes 316. Brokenshire, rh James Fuller, Richard Division No. 34] [12.38 pm Browne, Anthony Fysh, Mr Marcus Bruce, Fiona Gale, rh Sir Roger AYES Buchan, Felicity Garnier, Mark Buckland, rh Robert Ghani, Ms Nusrat Bardell, Hannah Hosie, Stewart Burghart, Alex Gibb, rh Nick Black, Mhairi Linden, David Butler, Rob Gibson, Peter Blackford, rh Ian MacAskill, Kenny Cairns, rh Alun Gideon, Jo Blackman, Kirsty MacNeil, Angus Brendan Campbell, Mr Gregory Girvan, Paul Bonnar, Steven McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Carter, Andy Glen, John Brock, Deidre McDonald, Stuart C. Cartlidge, James Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Brown, Alan McLaughlin, Anne Cash, Sir William Grant, Mrs Helen Callaghan, Amy Monaghan, Carol Cates, Miriam Gray, James Cameron, Dr Lisa Moran, Layla Caulfield, Maria Grayling, rh Chris Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Newlands, Gavin Chalk, Alex Green, Chris Chamberlain, Wendy Nicolson, John Chishti, Rehman Green, rh Damian Chapman, Douglas O’Hara, Brendan Chope, Sir Christopher Griffith, Andrew Cooper, Daisy Olney, Sarah Churchill, Jo Griffiths, Kate Cowan, Ronnie Clark, rh Greg Grundy, James Oswald, Kirsten Davey, rh Sir Edward Clarke, Mr Simon Gullis, Jonathan Sheppard, Tommy Day, Martyn Clarke, Theo Halfon, rh Robert Smith, Alyn Docherty-Hughes, Martin Clarke-Smith, Brendan Hall, Luke Stephens, Chris Doogan, Dave Clarkson, Chris Hancock, rh Matt Farron, Tim Thewliss, Alison Cleverly, rh James Hands, rh Greg Fellows, Marion Thompson, Owen Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Harper, rh Mr Mark Ferrier, Margaret Thomson, Richard Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Harris, Rebecca Flynn, Stephen Whitford, Dr Philippa Colburn, Elliot Harrison, Trudy Gibson, Patricia Wilson, Munira Collins, Damian Hart, Sally-Ann Grady, Patrick Wishart, Pete Costa, Alberto Hart, rh Simon Grant, Peter Courts, Robert Hayes, rh Sir John Gray, Neil Tellers for the Ayes: Coutinho, Claire Heald, rh Sir Oliver Hendry, Drew Jamie Stone and Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Heappey, James Hobhouse, Wera Christine Jardine Crabb, rh Stephen Henderson, Gordon Crouch, Tracey Higginbotham, Antony NOES Daly, James Hinds, rh Damian Adams, Nigel Aldous, Peter Davies, David T. C. Hoare, Simon Afolami, Bim Amess, Sir David Davies, Gareth Holden, Mr Richard Afriyie, Adam Anderson, Lee Davies, Dr James Hollinrake, Kevin Ahmad Khan, Imran Anderson, Stuart Davies, Mims Hollobone, Mr Philip 861 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 862 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill Holloway, Adam Mak, Alan Pincher, rh Christopher Stuart, Graham Holmes, Paul Malthouse, Kit Poulter, Dr Dan Sturdy, Julian Howell, John Mangnall, Anthony Prentis, Victoria Sunak, rh Rishi Howell, Paul Mann, Scott Pritchard, Mark (Proxy vote Sunderland, James Hudson, Dr Neil Marson, Julie cast by Sir Charles Walker) Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Hughes, Eddie May, rh Mrs Theresa Pursglove, Tom Syms, Sir Robert Hunt, Jane Mayhew, Jerome Quin, Jeremy Thomas, Derek Hunt, Tom Maynard, Paul Quince, Will Throup, Maggie Jack, rh Mr Alister McCartney, Jason Randall, Tom Timpson, Edward Javid, rh Sajid McCartney, Karl Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Tolhurst, Kelly Jayawardena, Mr Ranil McPartland, Stephen Richards, Nicola Tomlinson, Justin Jenkin, Sir Bernard McVey, rh Esther Richardson, Angela Tomlinson, Michael Jenkinson, Mark Menzies, Mark Roberts, Rob Tracey, Craig Jenrick, rh Robert Mercer, Johnny Robinson, Gavin Trott, Laura Johnson, rh Boris Merriman, Huw Robinson, Mary Truss, rh Elizabeth Johnson, Dr Caroline Metcalfe, Stephen Rosindell, Andrew Tugendhat, Tom Johnson, Gareth Miller, rh Mrs Maria Ross, Douglas Vara, Mr Shailesh Johnston, David Milling, Amanda Rowley, Lee Vickers, Martin Jones, Andrew Mills, Nigel Russell, Dean Wakeford, Christian Jones, rh Mr David Mohindra, Gagan Rutley, David Walker, Mr Robin Jones, Fay Moore, Damien Sambrook, Gary Wallis, Dr Jamie Jones, Mr Marcus Moore, Robbie Saxby, Selaine Warman, Matt Jupp, Simon Mordaunt, rh Penny Seely, Bob Watling, Giles Kawczynski, Daniel Morris, Anne Marie Sharma, rh Alok Webb, Suzanne Kearns, Alicia Morris, David Shelbrooke, rh Alec Whately, Helen Keegan, Gillian Morrissey, Joy Simmonds, David Wheeler, Mrs Heather Knight, rh Sir Greg Morton, Wendy Skidmore, rh Chris Whittingdale, rh Mr John Knight, Julian Mullan, Dr Kieran Smith, Chloe Wiggin, Bill Lamont, John Mumby-Croft, Holly Smith, Greg Wild, James Largan, Robert Murray, Mrs Sheryll Smith, Royston Williams, Craig Latham, Mrs Pauline Neill, Sir Robert Solloway, Amanda Williamson, rh Gavin Leadsom, rh Andrea Nici, Lia Spencer, Dr Ben Wilson, rh Sammy Leigh, rh Sir Edward Nokes, rh Caroline Spencer, rh Mark Wood, Mike Levy, Ian Norman, rh Jesse Stafford, Alexander Wragg, Mr William Lewer, Andrew O’Brien, Neil Stephenson, Andrew Wright, rh Jeremy Lewis, rh Dr Julian Offord, Dr Matthew Stevenson, Jane Young, Jacob Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Opperman, Guy Stevenson, John Zahawi, Nadhim Lockhart, Carla Paisley, Ian Stewart, Bob Loder, Chris Parish, Neil Stewart, Iain Tellers for the Noes: Logan, Mark Patel, rh Priti Streeter, Sir Gary Nigel Huddleston and Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Paterson, rh Mr Owen Stride, rh Mel James Morris by Lee Rowley) Pawsey, Mark Loughton, Tim Penning, rh Sir Mike Question accordingly negatived. Mackinlay, Craig Percy, Andrew Mackrory, Cherilyn Philp, Chris Main Question put and agreed to. 863 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 864 Early Release) Bill Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of Early Robert Buckland: My right hon. Friend speaks with Release) Bill particular personal experience of the Bali atrocity, and he is right to talk about the long-term nature of the Second Reading threat, but it is a threat that changes and evolves, and this Government will be as fleet of foot as possible in responding to it. He will be glad to note that we are 12.51 pm working at pace to deal with and remove inappropriate and hateful online content. The Home Secretary is by The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice my side today to emphasise, in the most eloquent possible (Robert Buckland): I beg to move, That the Bill be now way, the joint approach that she and I, and our respective read a Second time. Departments—together with the security services and Twice in the past few months we have seen appalling the police—are taking with regard to the first duty of and senseless attacks on members of the public by Government: protecting the public. It is a grave terrorist offenders. At Fishmongers’Hall on 30 November responsibility from which we will not shirk, and we say last year, two bright and promising young lives were cut that enough is enough. heartbreakingly short. The perpetrator, Usman Khan, had been released automatically halfway through a Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): I am 16-year sentence for preparing terrorist acts. That tragedy very glad about the tone my right hon. and learned was made so much more poignant by the fact that the Friend is taking. Were this measure to be challenged in victims were dedicated to the rehabilitation of offenders, our courts and the Government were to lose, that would and were helping people to get their lives back on track. be merely declaratory. But if it made its way to the The attack in Streatham on 2 February this year European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg and came as a stark reminder of the risks when these sorts the Government were to lose there, the ministerial code of offenders are let out automatically before they have served would require him to abide by treaty law. Would he then their full sentence in prison. entertain the prospect of a derogation from the convention on human rights? Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): A number of Robert Buckland: I believe that the declaration that I people may question why we are rushing through this make on the front of the Bill speaks for itself— business in one day today, so may I ask my right hon. and learned Friend, if the business were not completed Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): today and the Bill therefore not enabled as an Act, Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way? would it result in terrorists being released early in the immediate future? Robert Buckland: Well, I have not finished developing the point yet, but I will of course give way to my eager hon. Friend, the Chair of the Justice Committee, in time. Robert Buckland: The simple answer is yes; I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. This is a Bill on which I have made the following statement: I was telling the House about the events in Streatham. “In my view the provisions of the…Bill are compatible with Sudesh Amman had been released just one week before the Convention rights.” the attack, halfway through a sentence of three years I take the point made by my right hon. Friend the and four months for offences related to distributing or Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne). I promoting material intended to stir up religious hatred. am not going to anticipate litigation in domestic courts The automatic nature of his release meant that there or in Strasbourg, but I will repeat for the benefit of the was no parole oversight and no decision as to whether record that it is my firm view that this Bill does not he posed a risk to the public. No one could prevent his engage the provisions of article 7 of the European release. It is purely thanks to the swift intervention of convention on human rights, because it relates to the our incredible police officers that he did not go on to way in which the sentence is administered, not a change commit even more harm before he was stopped with in the nature of the penalty itself. I am grateful to him necessary force.The reality is that we face an unprecedented for allowing me to say that at this point. threat from terrorist offenders who are willing to commit random violence without any fear of the consequences. Sir Robert Neill: I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for giving way,because this is an important Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I point. Will he confirm that, in coming to that conclusion welcome the work that my right hon. and learned and making that certification, he has taken the advice Friend has done in this area over the last few weeks, and of senior Treasury counsel, and also that the case law that he is bringing the Bill before the House today. Will has made it quite clear that the administration of a he concede that this form of jihadi extremism and the sentence is not part of the penalty? Finally, will he threat that it has posed has now been around us for confirm that even were there to be successful litigation— almost 20 years, since the horrible attacks of 9/11 and, which I do not believe will be the case—it would result of course, Bali in 2002? I absolutely welcome the extra only in a declaration of incompatibility, and could not funding for our counter-terrorism police and rehabilitation strike down primary legislation? and probation services—this is all very good news—but ultimately we have to ask ourselves why these people Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend is right to remind were indoctrinated in the first place. Does he agree that the House that there is no power to strike down the we need to do more to remove the harmful online primary legislation. I am afraid that I will not indulge content that is used so much to attract people to the him in a direct answer as to the nature of advice that dark place they go to? may or may not have been tendered, and he knows the 865 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 866 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Robert Buckland] The Lord Chancellor made a point about the victims. Somebody who had done work experience in my office reasons why. However, I reassure him that all the proper was a witness on that day as they were working at mechanisms have been employed and engaged in the Fishmongers’ Hall. The impact not just on those who preparation of the Bill, and that on the basis of all the were injured or killed, but on those who were there and information received, I was able—with high certainty—to their families, has been tremendous, and continues. make the declaration on the frontispiece. The provisions in the Bill change the release point for offenders who have committed a relevant terrorism Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) offence and refer those offenders to the Parole Board at (Con): My right hon. and learned Friend will remember the two-thirds point of the sentence. I think we can that we worked together on these matters when I was understand and acknowledge that the resources available in the Government. He is right to speak about the to the police and probation are also a critical part of metamorphosis of terrorism. Will he confirm—indeed, this. A change in legislation will not be enough. Is the these provisions underpin this—that we must never let Lord Chancellor also committed to making sure that the persistent and perverse advocacy of the rights of the resources required through the justice system will be murderous individuals compromise either the work of in place to make any change effective on the ground? our security services or public faith in the rule of law? Robert Buckland: Indeed, I pay tribute to everybody Robert Buckland: My right hon. Friend speaks with who was not only involved with but witnessed those considerable experience, as we worked together on the awful events at Fishmongers’ Hall. Bill that became the Regulation of Investigatory Powers The hon. Lady and I served together on the Justice Act 2000, which rightly struck the balance between the Committee for some time, and I know that she has a need to protect the public and the need to make sure long-term interest in these issues. She is right to ask that the rule of law was respected. about resources. Some weeks ago, when it was announced That gives me a chance to warm to a theme that that we would be introducing a counter-terrorism Bill, I make no apology— extra resources of £90 million for counter-terrorism Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op) activity were announced, additional to the overall package rose— of £900 million of support for counter-terrorism. With regard to what we are doing with probation and the Robert Buckland: I will give way in a moment. I am interventions that she referred to, again we announced warming to a theme—let me warm! extra resources, with a doubling in the number of specialist The theme is this: in our fight against terrorism—in probation officers and the introduction of more expert our determination to protect the public against those psychiatric and imam involvement. She can rest assured who spread hate, division, death and injury, irrespective that whatever resources are needed in order to deal with of what might motivate them, because we know that we this issue, we will devote them to this particular line of have a cohort of different types of terrorist—we are important, intensive work. defending something of value. We are defending a Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con): The Staffordshire-born democratic, free society. We are defending the rule of convicted terrorist Usman Khan was let out of prison law. We are defending the values of this place and, early on licence. Last November, less than a year after indeed, the values of all the people we have the honour his release, he killed two young people near London and privilege of representing. That is something worth Bridge. Does the Secretary of State agree that this defending. By using due process, we mark ourselves out illustrates why this Bill is so important to protect the as distinct from, better than and different from those public in my constituency and across the UK, and to who seek to divide us. ensure that the most dangerous criminals serve the prison Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): Is my right hon. time that they deserve? Friend in receipt of advice from the Law Officers on Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend rightly points out this question? I say that because whatever arguments he the sad local connection to that appalling case last year. may address with regard to compatibility and his statement I know that she shares my—and indeed, I think, the on the front of the Bill, the reality is that this could whole House’s—commitment to maximum effort when easily end up in the courts if they can possibly manufacture it comes to protecting the public. It is clear that we must an argument. I want to be quite clear that his advice put a stop to the current arrangements whereby a relates to action in the courts and not just to incompatibility. dangerous terrorist can be released from prison by automatic process of law before the end of their sentence, Robert Buckland: I can assure my hon. Friend that all so we must do so as quickly as possible. the usual processes were followed. I am not going to go into the weeds of what the Law Officers might have said. Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): I warmly We know that they have a particular function when it welcome the legislation that has been put before the comes to the necessary clearances for the introduction House today. The Secretary of State is talking about of a Bill. I can assure him that those processes have resources. Will he outline any estimates he has made of been followed and that the issues that he rightly outlines— the number of individuals who might be covered by this and, indeed, presages through his amendments—are very legislation so that we can perhaps understand the impact much uppermost in our considerations. that it could have had on our police forces if those individuals had been released from prison early? Seema Malhotra: Recent events have indeed shown the need for a review through this legislation, which I Robert Buckland: The number of offenders, either certainly support, and which has the appropriate safeguards terrorist offenders or offenders who have committed and implementation measures that will be debated today. offences with a terrorist link, is about 50. That does not 867 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 868 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill sound like a large cohort, but in this particular situation Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): The Lord of extreme gravity, we cannot afford to allow any further Chancellor rightly mentions the need for resources to incidents to happen. I have spoken about the need to support this new legislation, because most of these minimise risk; that does not mean that we can eliminate offenders will eventually be released, albeit later, into risk. That is why this emergency measure is, in my the community. The issue is not just one of resources; it judgment and the judgment of the Government, absolutely is also one of process and expertise, because the recall necessary if we are to meet the concerns of my right provisions that are in place now could have been of use hon. Friend and other hon. and right hon. Members. in the cases that we have seen in recent months. Can he assure me that the Government are also looking at Mrs Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con): My right training and process and that any reforms needed—for hon. and learned Friend raises the issue of risk. He and example, to recall processes—will be properly put in the Government are absolutely right to be addressing place to support this legislation? the question of the automatic early release of terrorist offenders, but terrorist offenders will still be released at Robert Buckland: The hon. Lady, with whom I served some point. That is why rehabilitation—the work that is on the Justice Committee, is right to talk about risk done both in prison and when they are out of prison—is assessment and the recall process. She knows that the so important. There have been many efforts at this over recall process can be triggered on arrest, and certainly the years, but, as recent incidents have shown, not on charge, and that is regularly done in the normal always with success. Does he agree that we will never course of events. When it comes to multi-agency public deal with the issue of terrorism until we deal with the protection arrangements, I think she will note with ideology that drives it? Will he reassure me that the pleasure that, only three weeks ago, the Home Secretary Government are making extra efforts to find new paths and I ordered a review to be conducted by Jonathan to ensure that we can turn people away from the extremism Hall QC, the Government’s independent reviewer of and terrorism that takes other people’s lives? terrorism legislation. He will look at MAPPA with regard to this high-risk, high-level sector of the cohort, Robert Buckland: My right hon. Friend speaks with to ensure that we are getting it right and that the unparalleled experience of these issues, both as Home appropriate expertise is deployed at the right time in Secretary and as Prime Minister. I can assure her—I order to make the finest judgment with regard to risk. will develop these issues later in my speech—that there is a constant self-questioning among those responsible Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): If I understand it for these programmes to make sure that they are properly correctly, there are about 220 people serving time for calibrated, that they understand the particular drivers terrorist offences, 50 of whom will be affected by this that compel people to commit these acts, and that the legislation. Is that because those 50 are up for imminent distinctions between the different types of offender are release within the next few months? Does this legislation fully understood; from her own case experience she will in principle apply to all 220 people in prison for terrorist- know of myriad motivations. Rather than taking a related offences? blanket approach, a case-by-case analysis is very much at the heart of how we approach these matters. Robert Buckland: The cohort of around 50 are due for automatic early release; the rest will be subject to Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): My right hon. and Parole Board assessment. Different types of sentence learned Friend is absolutely right that this legislation are available. We are talking about people on standard ending the automatic halfway point of release is the determinate sentences. Other types of sentence include correct thing to do. The Parole Board obviously still has extended determinate sentences. Some may still be on a very important role in this process. What reform of the historical IPP—imprisonment for public protection— the Parole Board does he envisage to make it more regime, and there are also sentences for offenders of accountable, because that is a key aspect of ensuring particular concern, or SOPC. Forgive me for the alphabet that citizens are kept safe from those who would cause soup, but I am afraid that criminal justice sentencing them harm? legislation has not been the easiest matter for us to deal with, either as legislators or when I was a practitioner in Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend will be reassured this area. that a lot of ongoing work continues with regard to the role of the Parole Board. Very recently, reforms were Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I am grateful introduced that allow me to ask the Parole Board to to the Lord Chancellor for giving way; he is being reconsider important decisions that it makes with regard hugely generous. Does he accept that, while a lot of to the release, or early release, of offenders. A tailored these people are terrorists and criminals, a significant review is currently being undertaken to make sure that number of them are clearly insane? The people who its work is as practically effective as possible. were in jail with the latest perpetrator said that that In our manifesto, we committed to a root-and-branch individual was plainly off his head. He had a history of review, to ensure that victims are aware and as involved drug abuse, and mind-altering substances clearly played as possible from the outset and that the sharing of a role. Why is it that if people are secular and insane, intelligence and information between the security services, they will be locked up indefinitely, but if they can the police and the Parole Board is as thorough and ascribe this to some sort of religious motive, we feel we comprehensive as possible, so that the fullest and most have to give them a finite sentence and release them, appropriate assessment of risk can be made. In the area when they might run amok at any stage? of counter-terrorism, nothing can be more important than ensuring that that intelligence is shared and that Robert Buckland: As ever, my right hon. Friend makes those who handle it have the appropriate clearances and an interesting and thought-provoking point. While I expertise to make the necessary assessment. will not go into the individual facts of this case, because 869 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 870 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Robert Buckland] this to serving prisoners reflects the unprecedented gravity of the situation we face and the danger posed to the it is subject to a police investigation and there is an public. The Bill will not achieve its intended effect ongoing inquiry, I will say this. The judgment as to a unless it operates with retrospective effect, and therefore mental health disorder within the meaning set out in the it will necessarily operate on both serving and future Mental Health Act 1983 is a matter for two section 12 prisoners. That does not mean that the Bill will change qualified clinicians—consultant psychiatrists—who will retrospectively the sentence imposed by the court; release produce clinical evidence that will satisfy a court of the arrangements are part of the administration of a sentence, provisions of section 37 of the Act or,indeed, a restriction and the overall penalty remains unchanged. As I outlined under section 41, which puts the power of release into earlier, domestic and ECHR case law supports our my hands. That has to be satisfied on the basis of evidence. stance that article 7 is not engaged where the penalty It is important to make a distinction between that imposed by the court is not altered. The measures in the clinical approach and the risk assessment that we have Bill will also amend the release arrangements for terrorist to undertake when it comes to those who profess political offenders sentenced in Scotland, which will ensure a motivation. It is thought-provoking in the sense that we consistent approach where possible to the release of need to think about a mechanism that would be robust terrorist prisoners. and legally sound but would allow an objective assessment to be made about the risk posed by individuals, even James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con): I after their sentence has been completed. Public protection commend my right hon. and learned Friend for the has to come to the forefront of our thinking. introduction of this legislation and dealing with the I will now describe what we have done operationally issue of early release. May I come back to him on a since the attack at Streatham. The Prison and Probation point I have raised previously about how we manage the Service has taken immediate action to strengthen our risk of people who have offended once they have left operational grip of terrorist offenders and protect the prison, and about using the availability and enforceability public from any further attacks. The National Probation of post-release conditions, and indeed the terrorism Service is working closely with counter-terrorism partners. prevention and investigation measures regime and its Several offenders on licence have been recalled to prison potential application, to give a sense of assurance? Can since the attack, where officers identified concerning he comment any further on the next steps and how this behaviour, which relates to the point made by the hon. can be progressed, because this is clearly an issue that Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green). We will need to be addressed? have also instructed prison governors to report any Robert Buckland: I am hugely grateful to my right concerns and take any action required. Several terrorist hon. Friend, who, as the House will know, was a prisoners have subsequently been placed in segregation distinguished Security Minister and Northern Ireland units as a result of concerns raised by prison staff. The Secretary, and had to deal with these issues daily. I will Prison Service is managing the risk of incidents in prisons say this to him: he will know that the counter-terrorism that may be inspired by, or in response to, the attack at Bill, which was announced some weeks ago, will be coming Streatham. before the House soon. There will be measures in it not I would like to put on record my thanks to Ian Acheson only on the minimum term to be served for serious for his 2016 report on our response to extremism in prisons. terror offences, but on the way in which licence periods In the intervening years, the operating context has will be applied as part of such a sentence. That is clearly changed, and our response has strengthened considerably, one of the most effective ways to deal with this problem— but we must go further. We will take all additional steps through the criminal prosecution and conviction process. necessary,including keeping the full list of recommendations My right hon. Friend makes a wider point. He will know in Mr Acheson’s internal report under careful review. from having navigated through the House the TPIMs However, we need to take further action urgently to legislation, which has been subsequently strengthened ensure that the public are protected. As we saw in the and amended, that there are other circumstances in Streatham attack, we cannot have a situation where an which public protection will have to play a function in offender—a known risk to the public—is released without the absence of a conviction. It is on that particular any oversight by the Parole Board. The Bill therefore cohort that the Government are placing a lot of attention sets out new release arrangements for prisoners serving and concentration. It would perhaps be idle of me to a sentence for a terrorist offence or an offence with a speculate by outlining what precise forms those will terrorist connection. There are two main elements to take, but it is a dialogue that I encourage him actively to that: first, to standardise the earliest point at which they take part in over the next few months and it is something may be considered for release at two thirds of the I would want to develop with support from all parts of sentence imposed; and secondly, to require that the this House. Parole Board assesses whether they are safe to release between that point and the end of their sentence. That Sir William Cash: At this stage in the debate, and will apply to all terrorist and terrorist-related offences trying to avoid our having what might otherwise turn where the maximum penalty is above two years, including into an argument about the law in court, may I ask my those offences for which Sudesh Umman was sentenced. right hon. and learned Friend whether the case of del Only a very small number of low-level offences, such as Río Prada has actually been taken into account? Does failure to comply with a police cordon, are excluded by he know if that has been taken into account, because it this threshold, and prosecution and conviction for those was about policy and administration? offences are rare. The changes affect those who are serving sentences Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend will be glad to for a specified offence, whether the sentence was imposed know that not only has it been taken into account, but I before or after the new section comes into force. Applying have read it. It is a 2013 authority from the Strasbourg 871 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 872 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill Court that relates to a particular set of circumstances given the extra time in custody that many of these prisoners involving the Kingdom of Spain. There have been will now serve, such effective and in many cases very subsequent cases both before that court and, indeed, brave interventions by prison imams will be given the domestically. In summary, we are satisfied, on the basis extra time available to take further effect? of all the information we have, that the provisions of article 7 are not engaged in this respect. Robert Buckland: My right hon. and learned Friend the former Attorney General speaks with great experience Sir Robert Neill: My right hon. and learned Friend is and knowledge of these matters. He is absolutely right making a most compelling case for this legislation. For to focus on the specialist intervention of our imams. I the sake of completeness, I am sure he will also have think I referred to the fact that we are going to increase read and taken into account the subsequent cases in the resources and increase the number available within our Strasbourg Court of Abedin in the United Kingdom in prisons. Both the Home Secretary and I have seen at 2016 and of the Supreme Court in Docherty in 2017—both first hand the partnership working that goes on within subsequent to del Río Prada—which it seems to me the high-security estate when it comes to dealing with support the Government’s contention. these particular challenges. It is precisely that type of specialist intervention that he and others can be confident Robert Buckland: I say to my hon. Friend, as I am we will be supporting in the years ahead. sure he has heard many times in court, that his submissions I was going on to explain the extension of parole find great force with the Government and we are persuaded release to those who serve standard determinate by them. sentences and other transitional cases currently subject to automatic release. In line with the normal arrangements Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): It is very clear for prisoners released by the Parole Board, the board that the Lord Chancellor is carrying the House with will set the conditions of an offender’s licence for this him this afternoon, and all of us are seized of the cohort when they are released before the end of their necessity of bringing forward this Bill at this time and sentence. The Parole Board, as I outlined earlier, has the as quickly as possible. However, it is acknowledged that necessary powers and indeed the expertise to make there are serious concerns and issues about the engagement risk-based release decisions for terrorist offenders. The of article 7—I think he has an entirely justifiable position— board currently deals with terrorists who serve indeterminate and that we are bereft of the detailed pre-legislative sentences, extended sentences and sentences for offenders scrutiny that we might otherwise have had; that is a of particularconcern—the“SPOCs”,astheyarecolloquially consequence of the situation we find ourselves in. Given referred to. that, has the Lord Chancellor given any consideration to injecting a review mechanism into the Bill? There is a cohort of specialist Parole Board members who are trained specifically to deal with terrorist and Robert Buckland: I am very grateful to the hon. extremist offenders. They are, in effect, the specialised Gentleman. In fact, I think it is right to say, in the branch of the board that will be used to handle these context of Northern Ireland, that we have given such additional cases. They include retired High Court judges, careful consideration to the engagement of article 7 retired police officers and other experts in the field, all that we have chosen not to extend the legislation to of whom have extensive experience of dealing with the Northern Ireland. The way in which the sentence is most sensitive and difficult terrorist cases. Due to the calculated and put together by the Northern Ireland nature of the emergency legislation, I have proposed courts does cause potential issues with regard to engagement that the provisions cover England, Wales and Scotland. and therefore potential interference with the nature of The justification for this emergency, retrospective the penalty itself. I think that is actually very important legislation—out of the ordinary though I accept it in this context: it is real evidence of the fact that the is—is to prevent the automatic release of terrorist offenders British Government have thought very carefully about in the coming weeks and months. Given the risk that the engagement of article 7, and have not sought to take this cohort has already shown they pose to the public, it a blanket approach to all the various jurisdictions within is vital that we pass this legislation rapidly before any the United Kingdom. more terrorists are automatically released from custody I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about a review at the halfway point. Therefore, we are aiming for this mechanism. He will be reassured to know that a counter- legislation to receive Royal Assent before the end of the terrorism Bill is coming forward that will cover all parts month. With the support of this House, I am confident of the United Kingdom. There will be an opportunity that we can do that. I commend the Bill to the House. on that Bill to debate and analyse further long-term 1.28 pm proposals. Inevitably, the status and provisions of this Bill—I hope, by then, an Act of Parliament—will be Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab): I am grateful part of that ongoing debate. I am confident that, through to the Justice Secretary for his briefing last week and for the mechanisms of this House, we will be able to subject his opening remarks, and to the Under-Secretary of these provisions to post-legislative scrutiny in the way State for Justice, the hon. Member for Croydon South that he would expect. (Chris Philp), who has been keeping me updated in recent days. Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con): This Bill follows the awful terrorist atrocities first at My right hon. and learned Friend has mentioned the Fishmongers’ Hall on 30 November and more recently effect of this legislation that will keep terrorist prisoners in Streatham. My thoughts, and I am sure those of all in custody for longer, and he has rightly paid tribute to Members across the House, go out to the victims of prison imams, who maintain religious interventions for these terrible attacks and to their families and friends, those whose motivation for their terrorist offending is at and we thank the emergency services who responded so least claimed to be religious. Can he reassure us that, quickly. 873 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 874 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Nick Thomas-Symonds] There have been a number of warning signals over the past decade. In his opening remarks, the Justice Labour Members support the Parole Board’sinvolvement Secretary mentioned Ian Acheson, a former prison in release decisions. If this Bill is not passed and rushed governor who led a review of Islamist extremism in our through its stages over the next couple of weeks, terrorist prisons, probation and youth justice system, which was prisoners will be on our streets, without any assessment published in August 2016. Mr Acheson said: of risk or dangerousness by the Parole Board. That “What we found was so shockingly bad that I had to agree to does not leave the House in the easiest of positions, but the language in the original report being toned down…There it is the reality of the situation before us. For the Bill to were serious deficiencies in almost every aspect of the management be durable and workable, it must not simply amount to of terrorist offenders through the system…It was a shambles.” a delay in confronting the problem; it will also require a Mr Acheson proposed 69 recommendations that, relentless focus on, and investment in, the most effective according to the Justice Secretary when speaking to the de-radicalisation programmes in our prisons. media over the weekend, have been consolidated into a total of 11, eight of which are being implemented. However,in a newspaper article last Thursday Mr Acheson Sir Desmond Swayne: One of the most effective said: de-radicalisation programmes is that run by the Saudis, but it takes a long time. Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied “As part of my review of prison extremism, I made a great number of recommendations that specifically related to a tactical that sentences are long enough to accommodate a successful response to a terrorist incident in prison where staff were targeted. programme? I have no way of knowing if or how many were implemented as none made it into the response published by the Ministry of Nick Thomas-Symonds: I took part in a long debate Justice.” on sentencing in the last Parliament with the then That was only days ago. I do not know whether the Justice Minister of State for Security and Economic Crime, Secretary has met Mr Acheson since last Thursday— now the Secretary of State for Defence, and a number [Interruption.] I am happy for him to intervene. of sentences were increased. In her intervention on the Justice Secretary, the former Prime Minister pointed out Robert Buckland: The hon. Gentleman makes an —very fairly, I thought—that there has been an issue important point. I have not met Mr Acheson since last with the success of de-radicalisation programmes in Thursday, but I have met him. Indeed, I took part in a recent years. Length of a sentence is one matter, but, documentary that he produced for Radio 4 a few weeks whatever the length, the programme must be targeted and ago, before the latest attack. His engagement has been effective—I will come on to that point in a moment. valued. I will not go into the precise circumstances in which the report was consolidated, because in essence it We are here to discuss emergency legislation, but contained some sensitive matters that we all understood there is also an emergency in resources. The Leader of could not be published. the House indicated yesterday that the Treasury has The hon. Gentleman is right to talk about 2016. We approved additional resources for the extra time that accepted what Mr Acheson said, but things have moved prisoners will spend in custody as a consequence of the on a long way since then, and the problems that were Bill, as well as for the Parole Board. Clearly, however, identified are being tackled directly. We accept that there must also be a specific and dramatic increase in there is still more to be done, but the hon. Gentleman resources to tackle extremism in our prisons. will be glad to know that we have moved on in the four But this is not just about resources—my hon. Friend years since that report. the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) made a point about process and expertise, and she is Nick Thomas-Symonds: I will come on to whether absolutely right—and a strategic approach from the top things have moved on in a moment when I explore what will be required. the Chief Inspector of Prisons says about that issue. The Justice Secretary made it clear that there is no Last Thursday, however—only days ago—Mr Acheson need for derogation from the European convention on was clearly unsure of the Government’s position. I hear human rights, and he set out the Government’s legal what the Justice Secretary says about what is in the position on article 7. Labour Members firmly believe public domain, which is entirely appropriate. One would that we can tackle terrorism and proudly remain signatories hope, however, that someone who led a review for the to the European convention on human rights. In our Government would know four years later whether specific view, to leave that convention and join Belarus as the recommendations had been acted on. I also accept what only European non-signatory would send a terrible the Justice Secretary says about appearing in a documentary, signal to the rest of the world. We should never sacrifice but I strongly suggest that he meet Mr Acheson fairly the values that we are defending in the fight against urgently,to discuss those matters about which Mr Acheson terrorism and hatred. is not sure, so that they can be cleared up. Those who perpetrate hatred and violence are responsible Robert Buckland: I should have added that I have for their actions, but it is for the Government to do offered Mr Acheson a full briefing from Her Majesty’s everything they can to keep our streets safe and minimise Prison and Probation Service on those issues, and it has the risk of something like this ever happening again. been accepted. The House is therefore entitled to ask why we have ended up requiring this Bill to be passed via emergency Nick Thomas-Symonds: I am pleased to hear that, legislation. Automatic early release is hardly new. It has and I hope we will never again be in a situation where been part of our system for many years, and could already someone who led a review is not aware of what is going have been dealt with by a Government who took a more on years later. That simply cannot and should not happen, strategic approach. as I am sure the Justice Secretary would agree. 875 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 876 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill There are concerns about the Ministry of Justice listening, I say in all sincerity to the right hon. and learned and the extent to which justice has been a priority for Gentleman that I very much hope he survives in this the Government over the past decade. The coalition role—I hope I have not jinxed him by saying that; I Government chose not to make the Ministry of Justice could have just ruined his Friday—because there is an a protected Department when they implemented spending enormous job to do. There are 224 terrorist prisoners in cuts That led to 40% cuts over the past decade, including England and Wales, of whom 173 have been assessed as to the prisons that today we expect to play a vital role in having extreme Islamist views. We also know that there offender management. Weknow that 21,000 police officers is a growing threat from far-right terrorism. If we want disappeared from our streets, and prison officer numbers properly to manage the risk of terrorist offenders, we have been slashed. There are currently 18,912 front-line need the most effective targeted de-radicalisation prison officers, which is not yet back to 2010 levels. programmes to be delivered by staff working in the best That loss of prison officers has not just reduced the conditions we can provide for them. capacity of prisons to deal with rehabilitation; it also means that years of experience of working in challenging Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): One area has not environments in our prisons have been lost. been mentioned. When I took part in the police service parliamentary scheme and spent some time with the In 2019, 35% of prison officers had been in post for counter-terrorism units, the one area they highlighted less than two years, compared with just 7% in 2010. I do was working on the ground with mental health resources not mean that those officers are not doing their best in in our communities. That risk decision, the decision at difficult circumstances, but the Government needlessly community level about someone’s mental capacity and threw away valuable experience in our prisons. radicalisation, is really important when we look at resources. The cuts to our mental health services are Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab): having an impact on this area. Does my hon. Friend agree that that lack of prison officers, the privatisation of some of our prisons, and Nick Thomas-Symonds: My hon. Friend is absolutely having those young officers, has led to problems in Her right. I think we sometimes see things in isolation, but Majesty’s Prison Birmingham, which has seen a number cuts to many other services have also had an impact, of riots over the past couple of years? It adds more to which the Government need to take into account. Indeed, the Treasury’s costs if we have to take away people with when we talk about conditions for our prison officers to experience and later bring them back. work in, a third of our prisons were built in the Victoria era. There is a £900 million maintenance backlog and a Nick Thomas-Symonds: My hon. Friend speaks with desperate need for new investment. great authority about HMP Birmingham, and he is Sir William Cash: On mental disturbance, does the right to identify that if prisons are run in such a way hon. Gentleman accept that there are circumstances in there will be consequences because the time available which the principle of mens rea may not apply simply for meaningful activity is reduced. because the person in question, for a variety of reasons, The Justice Secretary talked in the media at the weekend some of which may be drug-affected or intrinsic, is about improvements in our justice system since incapable of making an act within the framework of Mr Acheson’s report. He repeated that in his speech and mens rea? In those circumstances, should we perhaps be he has repeated it in an intervention a moment or two thinking further down the line about what kind of ago. I therefore thought I would compare what the containment people need to restrain them from performing Justice Secretary is saying with the views of the independent such murderous acts? chief inspector of prisons. The latest annual report from Peter Clarke states that Nick Thomas-Symonds: A number of issues about mens rea, which is an essential element of committing a “far too many of our jails have been plagued by drugs, violence, appalling living conditions and a lack of access to meaningful criminal offence, have been decided before the courts. rehabilitative activity.” However, elements of our law can already deal with those who suffer from severe mental health problems, That should be a wake-up call to the Government. and they can be used and operated appropriately on a Mr Clarke went on to say that multi-agency basis. “levels of self-harm were disturbingly high and self-inflicted deaths tragically increased by nearly one-fifth on the previous Dr Julian Lewis: I take this opportunity to reiterate year.” my previous intervention. The suspicion is that there That is no way for the Prison Service to be run and things are gravely mentally ill people who are in prison when must change. they ought to be treated as if they are criminally insane and held in a secure psychiatric unit. The concern is that There is also, if I may say so, an issue at the Ministry people are being treated as terrorists when they are of Justice with the Government failing to provide it clearly mad, simply because they have picked up some with stable leadership. The right hon. and learned smattering of something that passes for a religious Gentleman is the seventh Justice Secretary since 2010. motivation. Of those seven, five have served for 18 months or less. The role of Lord Chancellor should have been respected Nick Thomas-Symonds: Where I can agree to a degree and not been subject to a revolving door. No wonder is that I certainly accept that there are people with there is such a lack of direction and no wonder there is mental health problems in prison who, frankly, should no long-term planning. Justice Secretaries are simply not be. The right hon. Gentleman refers, I think, to not in post long enough. There are even indications secure psychiatric units, where there is also a shortage from 10 Downing Street that half the Cabinet could be of places. That is another issue that the Government out by Friday. need to accept on the basis of the past 10 years. 877 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 878 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Nick Thomas-Symonds] really must be a day when that focus on rehabilitation comes and we turn the page away from a decade of problems I heard what the Justice Secretary said about specialist in our criminal justice system. officers, particularly those in de-radicalisation programmes, One of the recommendations made by Mr Acheson but we are tolerating a rise in physical attacks on our was for an independent adviser on counter-terrorism prison staff. That cannot be fair to them and it will not in prisons. I would go further and press the Justice produce a constructive environment in our prisons. From Secretary to provide external scrutiny and assessment September 2018-19, there were 33,222 assaults, including of the deradicalisation programmes across our prison 23,592 prisoner-on-prisoner assaults and 10,059 assaults estate. In that way, this House can regularly assess the on staff. Levels of self-harm were also the highest ever position, and we will not again be in a situation where recorded. we are taken by surprise or are responding on the The Bill, I am sure the Justice Secretary will argue, hoof. We cannot tolerate our prisons becoming breeding will deal with the immediate crisis of the next few grounds for extremism, and we need to ask searching weeks, but he must plan ahead. The crisis in our criminal questions. justice system does not end with our prisons. We also I hope that this emergency legislation will pass without need the best possible probation services and the best a Division. Alongside it, I hope that the Government possible supervision. In 2014, the Government part- will now invest in the very best expertise available in privatised the probation service. I do not think it is unfair counter-extremism and tackle the crisis in our prisons. to say that it was an absolute disaster. The Government It is only by doing that that the Government can truly had more than 150,000 people supervised by private say they are doing all they can to keep our streets safe, community rehabilitation companies and just left the and in that we will be holding them to account. high-risk offenders to be managed by the National Probation Service. The chief inspector of probation, Dame Glenys Stacey, said last year: 1.50 pm “The system which sees private firms monitor criminals serving Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): community sentences is ‘irredeemably flawed’”. The speeches from both Front Benchers have been very She is right. No wonder the right hon. and learned thoughtful and that matches the significance of this Gentleman’s predecessor had to announce last year that debate. My right hon. and learned Friend the Lord the supervision of all offenders on probation in England Chancellor made a very compelling case for this legislation. and Wales was being put back into the public sector. It is not the type of legislation that the House should undertake lightly,but protecting the public must ultimately Sir John Hayes: The hon. Gentleman is making a trump all other considerations. It is always right that we point about capacity, and that seems to be reasonable. should protect the public in a way that is commensurate Early release—scores of convicted terrorists have been with the rule of law. I believe that the Government and released early since 2013—adds to demand on capacity the Lord Chancellor have managed to achieve that and he is making a case that we should address that. On balance and I am glad that the official Opposition that basis, I am sure he would want to support the recognise that, too. That is a fundamental duty for all of Secretary of State in taking that pressure away, building us, and reconciling the two is a considerable achievement, morale and, as he described, allowing the police to exercise given the pressures we are under at this time. capacity more effectively. The reason that I think it is necessary to move in this way has been well set out. I speak as somebody who Nick Thomas-Symonds: Well, yes.I have made absolutely represents a London constituency: many of my constituents clear my support for the measures before us today. My work in and around the places where we have seen so point is simply this: today we will deal with an immediate many atrocities. That brings home to us profoundly the crisis. What the Bill will not do is deal with the broader catastrophic risk that can come when an individual is and deeper problems we have that will need to be dealt released. Even though the index offence that caused with in the months and years ahead. The National them to go to prison may not have led to a very long Audit Office announced that the botched part-privatisation sentence, the nature—I am sorry to say—of the type of of probation cost the taxpayer nearly £500 million. terrorism that we see now, often based on perverted Frankly, it is time for good sense and consistency in ideologies and the deep-seated hatred that that breeds, policy making at the Ministry of Justice. gives us the need to be particularly careful and cautious The independent review of the Prevent programme, about all forms of release going forward. The automatic which I secured in the previous Parliament—I think I point of release will be moved to two thirds—in fact, debated it with the right hon. Member for South Holland that will no longer be automatic but will, in all cases, be and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes)—has been announced, considered by the Parole Board, and that is a worthwhile but there is no reviewer. We are now a year from the and important aspect of the Bill. point at which the Bill that he and I debated received Royal Assent. Lord Carlile was appointed but resigned Sir William Cash: I am listening with great interest to before Christmas, because he had already expressed everything that my hon. Friend says, as ever. Does he views on the programme, and the Government have think that the question over the Bill is that it will have a hardly shown urgency in appointing a replacement. It is limited effect, whereas the problems that we face have a high time that they did. I appreciate that that is not the much longer-term consequence? Does he believe, therefore, responsibility of the Justice Secretary, but I am sure he that we ought to have a more rigorous analysis in will pass on the message to his Cabinet colleagues that future—this is only emergency legislation—to make the reviewer must be appointed and the review must sure that human life in this country takes priority over begin, take place and make recommendations. Today the interpretation of law? 879 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 880 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill Sir Robert Neill: I certainly agree that we need a more will be later in the Session. The purpose of this legislation detailed analysis of the best approach to a threat that is effectively to deal with that—as well as moving the continues to change and develop. My hon. Friend is release point from half-way to two thirds, the Bill right about that, and it is right that this is a discrete, automatically states that there must be consideration by emergency measure to deal with a specific and urgent the Parole Board. It is very important that the Parole problem. We certainly need to look at the way in which Board has the resource and expertise to carry out the we deal with sentencing, the treatment of such individuals additional and heavy burden that it must take on. There and the protection of the public in that context—that is have been good reforms of the Parole Board since the absolutely right. I happen to believe, lest it be hinted Worboys case, for example, and in the last Parliament otherwise, that that is perfectly capable of being achieved the Justice Committee looked at this and urged changes withinourcontinuingadherencetotheEuropeanconvention to the way in which parole operated, which have been on human rights and that a series of British court decisions acted on. There is movement in the right direction but would tend to support that, but my hon. Friend is we must be ever vigilant in making sure that the Parole absolutely right on the broader thrust that there is more Board has the resource, which may include more specialist work to do in this field. I got the sense that the Government resource. and the Lord Chancellor recognise that, too. It is right that we should consider the necessity of the Dr Julian Lewis: I am very interested in my hon. Bill. I would have thought that that had been well laid Friend’s lucid speech and particularly in the fact that he out now. That is one of the principles of the rule of law. says the sentence imposed by judges is meant to reflect Lord Bingham famously set out a number of principles. the gravity of the crime. It does explain why so many One should not act in haste unless there is a compelling victims feel short-changed when people are let out early. reason, but the reality of blood being shed on the streets When we come to consider the larger question of sentencing, of this country seems a compelling reason to me. The would it not make more sense to have judges impose fact that people have been released and then have swiftly, sentences that people will actually serve and to extend and frequently,seized articles and used them to catastrophic them if people misbehave in jail, rather than reducing effect seems to make this legislation both necessary and them if they behave? proportionate, so I hope that the House will have no Sir Robert Neill: My right hon. Friend makes an hesitation in supporting it. interesting point. We will want to look at a number of One issue that seems to have raised some concern, issues when we debate the sentencing Bill. However, I particularly in legal circles, is whether there is any risk say by way of caution that when we start extending the of retrospectivity. I do not seek to see retrospective sentence—the penalty—we run the risk of falling foul legislation, and for the reasons that the Lord Chancellor of the principle against retrospectivity. With respect, I set out I do not believe that that is the case. When I was say to him that that is not something I would wish to in practice at the Bar, it was very clear that the prospect see. That is different from remission of the sentence for of whether early release might occur was not a consideration earned good behaviour, which is the traditional system that any judge should take into account in passing that we grew up with. There is an important distinction sentence. The principle was, and always has been, that to be drawn. the sentence passed should be commensurate with the gravity and seriousness of the offence and any other Dr Lewis: The point about extending the sentence is legitimate mitigating or aggravating circumstances that that it would be extended because of the commission of the Crown or the defence can put forward. Whether a further offence while the person was in prison, and that there may or may not be early release thereafter was would not be retrospectivity. never regarded as a consideration affecting the penalty. That is important for the argument that the Bill Sir Robert Neill: That is an interesting point, but, retrospectively increases the penalty, which I think is a with respect to my right hon. Friend, it is a wholly misguided argument in these circumstances. It was often different consideration. There has been much debate on said that the prospect of early release in effect ameliorates this point. The Select Committee has looked at it and the penalty that was passed, rather than anything else. urged that for certain offences, such as assaults on There is a string of authority in both the UK and prison officers, there is often a compelling case, as a Strasbourg courts to the effect that the total duration of matter of public policy, for that to be charged as an the penalty is that which is laid down by the court at the additional offence, rather than be dealt with under the time. That is the bit that cannot be changed retrospectively prison disciplinary rules, as is frequently the case. I am and the legislation does not seek to do that. with him on that, but perhaps that is as far as we should take it today. Sir John Hayes: From his long experience of these I have one final point about retrospectivity. Some things, my hon. Friend is making a cogent argument learned commentators have raised concerns on the basis about the character of penalties. He might want to go of the European Court decision in the case of Del Río further. The problem with the assumption about automatic Prada, but that case at most raises a tangential or early release is that it is injurious to the very principle speculative concern that there might be retrospectivity. that he set out. Early release has always been part of The briefing from the Bingham Centre for the Rule of judicial considerations but on the basis of an assessment Law—I have a lot of respect for that centre, so it is right of risk, merit and worthiness. Automatic early release that I address it—says that arguably this could be runs against those principles. regarded as falling foul of the principles; it does not come down hard and fast in that regard. The decision Sir Robert Neill: I understand that point and we can came after a particularly convoluted history of changes debate it in broader terms when the larger piece of within the Spanish judicial system, which is utterly sentencing legislation is introduced, as I understand it different from what we are doing. Subsequently, there 881 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 882 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Sir Robert Neill] London, are being held in a way that does not pose any further threat to staff, in terms of attacks—an issue that have been decisions by the Strasbourg Court, in the case Mr Acheson dealt with—or any threat, either physically of the application of Abedin against the United Kingdom, or in terms of further corruption, to other more vulnerable and by the Supreme Court in the UK, in the case of inmates with whom they might be serving. Doherty, where the line of reasoning was much more In conclusion, this is an important Bill, and I hope consistent with the traditional stance we have taken the House will speed it through, but there is much more ever since the House of Lords decision in the case of work to do. I will finish, though the Lord Chancellor is Uttley, which was that the changes to remission and not now in the Chamber, by concurring with the shadow early release provisions were part of the administration Minister on one final point: I, too, have been frustrated, or execution of a sentence, not part of the penalty. That as Chairman of the Select Committee, at the revolving seems such a well-established principle that we ought to door of Secretaries of State and Ministers who have have confidence that we can act upon it in this case. appeared before us over the years, and I very much hope that the Lord Chancellor will stay in office very successfully The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice and for many years. His handling of this delicate matter, (Chris Philp): I wholeheartedly concur with my hon. including yesterday, has given him as good a claim as Friend’s analysis, but I just wanted to add one point. anyone to his office—and I, too, hope that that has not The Del Río Prada case touched on how concurrent done too much damage to his career. sentences were calculated, which is wholly different from the matter before the House today. 2.5 pm Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP): I concur Sir Robert Neill: My hon. Friend makes an important with the Lord Chancellor’s comments that one of the point. In legal parlance, I would say that is the most primary duties of any Government, in any country, is to material consideration in distinguishing between those keep their population safe. I would go as far as to say cases and the ones we are dealing with here. I hope that, that that applies to everybody elected to this institution having considered all those points, the House will be and indeed to any democratic Chamber. Nobody seeks reassured on retrospectivity. to make their constituency, let alone their country, As other hon. Members have observed, it is important unsafe. It is in that spirit that we come to this debate. to recognise that this is a specific piece of legislation We understand the spirit of the Bill and the need for dealing with a specific and discrete problem; it does not urgency—our party has had to deal, in another Chamber, mean we should not act urgently to deal with the with urgent and special procedures on severe matters broader issue of how we deal with this type of terrorism, that present a danger to the public—but we obviously which has developed in recent years; how we contain have other duties, too, and there must be an element of those who are deeply radicalised in prison; and how we proportionality. I think the Lord Chancellor used the prevent further radicalisation in prison—there is some word “cohorts”. It is important that we put it on the concern that the Streatham attacker might still have record that, despite what might be put across by some been receiving radicalisation material while in prison. tabloid newspapers or by others, we are not dealing with We need to look urgently at that and at the threat, thousands or hundreds; he said that we were dealing which many of us have come across, of hard-line terrorist with 50 individuals, although some have suggested that prisoners seeking to further radicalise more vulnerable it might be an even lower number. Equally, we recognise inmates within the prison estate. That is an issue that that, although they may be few in number, the danger Mr Acheson, who has been referred to favourably by and damage they can cause in our communities is many in this debate, addressed. I am glad to hear the significant, as we have sadly seen. Lord Chancellor has been in touch with Mr Acheson. Dr Julian Lewis: Although I concur with what the I share the view of the shadow Minister that Mr Acheson hon. Gentleman has said, he will recognise that keeping has a good deal more to give to this discussion. Things even one of these people under close surveillance can have moved on since his 2016 report, and he was a most involve up to 50 members of special branch or MI5. compelling witness when he appeared before the Justice Therefore, even a handful of them will severely test the Committee in a previous Parliament, so it might be that resources of the security services. we would like the benefit of his views again. I hope the Government will engage directly with him to see how, Kenny MacAskill: Absolutely. I was going to come to within the new context, we can continue to take on that that point, given my involvement as a former Justice and other expertise. Secretary in Scotland. We on the Opposition Benches It is also right that we build upon the good work have a duty not only to ensure public safety, but to being done by the chaplaincy service in the form of the challenge and hold the Government to account on specialist imams. We have not perhaps given enough proportionality, practicality and operability. We will credit to the work of prison chaplaincy generally and of test and probe issues to ensure that public safety criteria, the specialist imams, who have a very difficult task to which are shared on both sides of the House, are met, fulfil but do it most admirably. That is the impression I but I assure the Minister that we do not oppose the have got from those I have met. What more can we do to general principles of the Bill. give them greater professional—pastoral, if you like— That brings me to the question of retrospectivity, practical and professional support? This is an important which has been commented on by many Members. It is area. I hope the Minister will confirm that we intend to unusual, it is rare, it is infrequently done, but we are continue that work and say what we can do to make open to it, although we have some caveats, the major sure that the many terrorist prisoners being held in one being that we have to get it right. We appreciate and high-security prisons like Belmarsh, near me in south-east welcome the extensive consideration given to this matter 883 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 884 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill and the sharing with all Members of the logic and Committee will know better than I, and the law in thinking, but this is an important point. I am conscious Scotland is somewhat different in relation to how we of the analogy of wasps in a jar: if you shake them all address psychopathy, but dealing with mental health about and then let them out, you will get stung. We are, issues always involves difficulties. It challenges the courts as I say, sympathetic to the point about retrospectivity, as it challenges those in the national health service who but we take on board the points made by the Bingham quite correctly deal with those issues. I think that this Centre for the Rule of Law, which Members will have comes down to the fact that we are dealing with a new seen today. We seek as much assurance as the Minister phenomenon. There are those who are mentally ill and can give—we recognise that no absolute assurance can who are set loose to cause havoc—either individually or be given—that he is as certain as he can be that we will encouraged by others—and the health service has to try not face protracted litigation, a rewrite or further emergency to deal with them as best it can, but there are others legislation, and that we will avoid the potentially calamitous who are simply malevolent. There are powers under problems that may follow. I think again of the analogy current terrorism legislation, so I do not think there is of wasps in a jar. any need for additional measures in that regard. That takes us on to the substantive issues that have been That returns me to the question of how we deal with dealt with by many Members on both sides of the House, them within and how we deal with them without. Let but in particular by the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick me start with the latter. Obviously monitoring is extremely Thomas-Symonds). The real issue here is radicalisation. resource-significant, as was mentioned by the right hon. Our primary concern on the Opposition Benches is not Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). It is not a so much the nature of the legislation, but the action matter of someone in a rain jacket tailing an individual, with prisoners, current or future, that has been taken even if that someone is accompanied by another. It and must be taken in the future. It is one thing to detain takes dozens, and often significantly more, because them for longer; it is quite another to do something there is back-office work and there are different shifts, constructive with them when you have them. That is the and there are different ways of monitoring in the world nub of the problem, and that is the underlying issue that in which we live. The resources needed just to deal with we are seeking to test with the Government. one individual, never mind the accompanying supply I think it was the former Prime Minister, the right chain, are significant, and we need assurances that that hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), who mentioned will be provided. More police are required, particularly that all will ultimately be released. I had significant south of the border. The impact of terrorism on policing discussions with her when she was the Home Secretary is significant, and that must be taken on board, given and I was the Justice Secretary in the Scottish Parliament. the other demands that the police rightly face in our The likelihood is that most will be released bar a very communities. few, perhaps only a handful, and we must ensure that I now come to the former issue. This is relevant to when that date comes, we are as safe as we can be. what has been said about the Acheson review, which Although no Government can give every assurance that was published back in 2016. It appears that little has no one will reoffend, we must be as sure as we can be been done since then. I gather from discussions I have that the risk is limited, or, indeed, that the actions to had that one of Mr Acheson’s recommendations—which protect the public have been taken. was, quite correctly, welcomed by the Government—was that prisons should have specialist separation units. I That brings me back to why we are generally supportive understand that some four were subsequently established, of the thrust of the Opposition amendments, which but only one—at, I think, HMP Frankland—is in operation. were mentioned by the hon. Member for Torfaen. The I am open to correction or challenge, but if that is real issue is not the legislation, but the action to deradicalise indeed the position, it is simply not good enough. If an when people are within our prisons and monitor when independent reviewer of the stature of Mr Acheson—on they are without them. We also recognise that this is a which we all agree—makes a recommendation, you are relatively new phenomenon. Many Members have said duty bound to implement it. If he makes a specific that it has been with us for more years than they care to recommendation for units that you go to the trouble of remember, but it is a challenge for those involved in establishing, it is mind-blowing that only one should be criminal justice, because this is a new aspect. We have to operating. think outside the box, which is why the input of imams, which was mentioned earlier, is so important. They are Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): I agree with the to be welcomed—and they sometimes face significant hon. Gentleman about the separation units. We need to challenges, if not threats, themselves. think about how we can increase the numbers. People who are already radicalised arrive in prison and then Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): The point prey on vulnerable inmates to increase the level of that the hon. Gentleman is making is absolutely correct, radicalisation. It has been suggested that those who but there will be some who will not be deradicalised. In have already been convicted of terrorist crimes should that circumstance, and when the time comes for their be placed in separate units to prevent the spread of release, they are not mentally ill but they have a different radicalisation. The hon. Gentleman has made a very good view of the world. Might we not need to review the point. treason law, as was suggested at the weekend by my Kenny MacAskill: I thank the hon. Lady. The same hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling has been done in previous years in the case of other (Tom Tugendhat)? prisoners. Even during my tenure, we had special units for those involved in paramilitary activities in Northern Kenny MacAskill: I do not think that that would be Ireland. This is something deeply specialised, but it will required. I think that there are other ways in which we require action both by those involved in the establishment can deal with these people. The Chair of the Select of the units and by the Prison Service. 885 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 886 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Kenny MacAskill] always be best known to me as the home of a monthly charity bingo club set up by village resident Celia Brown, That brings me to the question of deradicalisation which has raised thousands of pounds over the years. I programmes. I recognise the difficulty of checking against pay tribute to the amazing contribution that Celia and delivery and ensuring that the programmes are working, her family have made to charity fundraising. Willaston but I think that we need to take steps. I have a special hosts the annual world worm-charming championship, request for the Minister: I think that prison officers which sees competitors travel from as far afield as New should have an input in these courses. Their input is Zealand and Australia. I will ensure that the upcoming currently very limited—indeed, almost nil—and they reform of the immigration system makes the necessary are outsourced, which is understandable. There are also visas available to those who wish to compete in this the specialist resources such as imams, who were mentioned important global competition. earlier. However, we should recognise that prison officers Wehave a host of fantastic local sports teams, including have remarkable skills. They are able to tell who is pulling Crewe and Nantwich rugby club, which I play for. the wool over their eyes. They may not be trained in this There is no better way of keeping your feet firmly on or qualified in that, but they know psychology and the ground than running around on the rugby pitch on individuals within the prison institution. They can tell a Saturday with team-mates and an opposition who you why someone is applying for a course—in the main, could not care less about my being an MP: the bruise on because no one can always get it right. They are hugely my cheek testifies to that. The second team that I play skilful in distinguishing those who are signing up because for has a two-part team motto, the first part of which is they want to be able to tick the box and satisfy the “Win or Lose”; the second part contains unparliamentary Parole Board from those who are signing up for a course language which I cannot repeat in this place. because they believe in it. They do not engage with the prisoners just on the course; they live with them 24/7, Inevitably, however, the constituency is best known and they can see who prisoners are interacting with and for its two towns of Crewe and Nantwich. Nantwich is what their behaviour is like. I think that we have been a true gem in the Cheshire tourism crown, attracting remiss in this regard, and I ask the Minister to take my streams of visitors every year, whether it be to the regular suggestion on board. farmers markets or the famous food festival, or just to enjoy a stroll around the cobbled pavements with a view Let me end by simply saying that we are satisfied of St Mary’s church and the beautiful floral displays of about the need for the Bill. We are satisfied with the Nantwich In Bloom. It is home to Barony Park, which general principles.Wewish to be assured that retrospectivity is championed by the Friends of Barony Park and their will be addressed, and that resources both within and irrepressible cheerleader, Rachel Wright. without will be provided. If that is done—although we accept that no Government can give us an absolute, Crewe is a town with a proud history, and there can categorical assurance that these people will not reoffend be no better example of the kind of town this Government —we can at least go back to our constituencies and say have pledged to support. Everywhere you look, there to our constituents that we are doing as much as we can are people fighting to make a difference: people such as to keep our communities safe. David McDonald and Margaret Smith, who are working hard to improve Crewe as part of the Crewe Clean Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It Team. When the Beechmere residential home burned is a pleasure to call Dr Kieran Mullan to make his down last year, the whole community rallied round. maiden speech. However, Crewe faces a declining high street and an ongoing struggle to return once again to the high point 2.17 pm of its enormous contribution to our national economy as home to Crewe Works, which at one point employed Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): Thank 20,000 people designing and building world-famous you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for this opportunity to trains. The site’s famous 11-metre tall wall that had make my maiden speech. I am conscious of the seriousness stood for more than a century was finally knocked of the topic with which we are dealing today as I down last year to make way for development. I grudgingly embark on the traditional features of a maiden speech, understand why that might have been the right decision, but we know that the positive community stories that but it serves as a symbol of what we must get right for I will be sharing are exactly what the terrorists seek to all of Crewe. Yes, let’s see progress—as we soon will destroy, and what the Bill seeks to prevent them from with the arrival of HS2 and with the Towns Fund destroying. investment—but we must ensure that the reward is worth Let me begin by paying tribute to my predecessor, the cost, and losing the wall and the legacy it represented Laura Smith. Laura was vociferous in her advocacy, has been a blow for many local residents. Bombardier and, like me, has frontline experience of public services. has allowed me to have a brick from that wall, and it has Before becoming a politician, she was a primary school pride of place in my office to serve as a constant teacher and a private tutor. It is a good thing to have reminder to me of what has passed and what must come diverse backgrounds and experiences in this place. next. Why do things such as that wall matter to people? Crewe and Nantwich is a true melting pot of northern They matter because they help us to tell a story of our Britain, and I could not possibly do all its diversity lives and our history. justice in this short speech. I represent a large number Seven years ago, as a junior doctor, I had the privilege of villages and parishes including Haslington, Willaston, to look after Jan Krasnodebski, a Polish man of quiet Wistaston, Rope,Hough, Basford, Shavington, Barthomley, dignity, who was admitted to hospital towards the end Weston, Leighton and Wybunbury.Across the constituency of his life. His family were deported from Poland to can be seen a host of community activities that embed Russia during the war, then allowed by Stalin to join the each of those places in my mind. Hough Village will British Army training camps in Persia. Jan eventually 887 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 888 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill joined the Polish army cadet school in Palestine, and become part of the wider world with confidence, ambition when the British mandate ended, he came to Britain. He and a sense of right and wrong. People lacking that went on to live a rich life, but he had no wife or children. foundation need our help most of all. We would sometimes talk in the evenings, and he told Modern culture holds up as important the people me of his worry that without children of his own, his whose stories are being told loudest, on radio and life would not be as vividly remembered as it deserved television, in newspapers and on Facebook and Instagram, to be. I know, as a gay man, that the question of whether and whether a story is being told by admirers or detractors, I would have children and how I would be remembered we are made to feel that it is volume that counts. That is sometimes crossed my mind at the time, so I felt an something that modern terrorist groups understand affinity with him. very well. Let us make sure that our constituents feel We agreed that I would write the story of Jan’s life, so their story is important, however quietly told it is. that he could share it with others and ensure that he I finish by returning to Jan’s words. He reflected: would be remembered. For a week after I finished work, “Though I have written about some of the more memorable I sat with him as he quietly and studiously sketched it events in my life, I would say most of my enjoyment of life has out for me. It was the story of two generations, his and been from the day to day involvement in smaller ways with the his parents’, who lived in a world more precarious than Polish community”. most of us can imagine, and full of hardship but also of Whetherweareaddressingterrorism,loneliness,addiction dignity. What we wrote together was read at his funeral or family breakdown, it is with community, belonging following his death a couple of months after he left and importance that we need to start if we really want hospital. In preparing this speech, I revisited the story. to level up this country. Many people have forgotten In it, I think we can find some clues as to why, despite that the community right outside their door—in community the hardship and upheaval that they faced, families bingo clubs, world worm-charming championships, parks such as Jan’s and their communities still lived contented groups, litter-pick groups and rugby teams—is where lives. As I share Jan’s words now, they enter Hansard, so they will find that fulfilment, belonging and a sense of he can be sure that his story is preserved forever. Jan importance. Let us work hard in this place to remind told me: them of that, to ensure that our society is one in which “You can have a happy fulfilled life as long as you do something no terrorist ideology will ever find a home. that you think is important.” When we get home from this place in the evenings, we 2.26 pm climb into bed and all the pomp and ceremony and the expectations on us fall away, and we are no different to Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) Jan in his hospital bed wanting to reflect on his life and (Lab): I should like to start by congratulating the hon. feel that it had meaning. Our constituents are no different Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Dr Mullan) on his either. Listening to the maiden speeches of many new thoughtful and beautiful speech. To give his maiden Members, I have been struck by how many have spoken speech in that spirit shows the way in which he will work about what is increasingly missing from people’s lives: hard for his constituents to tell the stories not just of the that sense of how they fit in with this ever-changing two towns he represents but of the people within the towns, complicated world we live in. People want meaning and and also of the search for meaning and the search for a sense of where they belong. Too often, we forget that purpose in politics. I really must congratulate him on that comes in the form of expectations and obligations making such a poignant and powerful maiden speech. on us. Delivering on what we must give to others and I rise to support this legislation. The purpose behind what is expected of us helps to create our own sense of the Bill is the right one. It is to ensure that those worth. convicted of terrorist offences are not released early There are no simple solutions to this challenge of without a Parole Board assessment of whether they still people struggling with their identity and place in the pose a danger to the public. In the past few months, we world. If you have a low-paid skilled job but every week have seen two awful terror attacks—one on London you help to run a women’s refuge, you can feel important. Bridge and one in Streatham—and our hearts go out to On the other hand, you can have a high-paid, high-skilled those who were killed or hurt, and also to their families job but get lost in the world of addiction, because what and to those who were there and witnessed the awful you earn has, on its own, given you no sense of meaning. events. We owe our thanks and tributes to brave members You can live on a deprived housing estate surrounded of the public as well as to the police, the security by drug-dealing gangs but feel no temptation to join services and the emergency services, and to those such them, because your loving family is all the community as Jack Merritt and Saskia Jones, who worked so hard you need. And you can hold enormous talent in your on the rehabilitation of offenders in the community, hands but not feel valued, because society has decided and who worked every day to help keep others safe. that grafting all day for a great wage is not as important They tragically lost their lives in the London Bridge or worthy as going to university. attack. Today we are talking about the evils of terrorism, but I agree with the Lord Chancellor and with my hon. at the heart of any successful terrorist recruitment Friend the Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) campaign are people who have lost that sense of meaning that we should come together on this, because terrorists in their own lives, leaving them vulnerable to the simple seek to undermine our way of life and to divide us, and narratives of victimhood and betrayal. We can build we cannot let them so do. We have faced terrorist and infrastructure and create jobs, but all of this sits in a extremist attacks for many years in this country. We vacuum if it is not part of a broader story of a nation have seen an increase in Islamist extremism and, more and a community that people feel part of. Of course, I recently, an increase in far right extremism. The changing will always believe that it is our families—the very first patterns of those threats include an increase in lone community we are part of—that ensure we grow to attacks by those who have been radicalised, either online 889 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 890 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Yvette Cooper] The Home Affairs Committee took evidence from Neil Basu in October 2018 during the course of its consideration or in prison. In those attacks, by extremists on all sides of what became the Counter-Terrorism and Border in pursuit of poisonous ideologies, people are hoping Security Act 2019, and he told us: not just to hurt and harm us but to provoke fear and “The point that some of our radicalisers are getting short reactions that they can further feed upon. So it is a sign sentences, coming out early, and being able to continue is a of our strength and resilience as a country that most problem, as is not having sufficient resources in place to use people have always been determined to come together desistence or disengagement programmes.” in the face of such extremism and attacks and not to let them divide us. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I support the legislation, but I agree with my right hon. The Streatham attack highlights a problem. The police, Friend that it feels a bit like a sticking plaster. The the courts,the security services,the prisons,the rehabilitation unanswered questions are the danger here. What happens and prevention services and the affected communities to the people who we keep in prison longer unless there all need our support and also Government support to is effective intervention? What confidence can we have keep communities safe. That is why this Bill is justified that MAPPA levels 2 and 3 are stringently managed and and needed. When someone has been convicted of enforced? That is always the issue that must be addressed terrorism and they are still dangerous to the public, they when such people come out of prison. should not be released early from prison. That means that, before they are released, they must be subjected to Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend is exactly right. There a proper Parole Board assessment of whether they still is a danger that we are simply reacting to this situation pose a threat. The seriousness of terror events and the in a hand-to-mouth way, rather than in a more strategic dangers of radicalisation mean that the police often way that recognises some of the underlying issues that rightly intervene before an appalling attack takes place need to be dealt with over a long time. We may need and charge people with preparatory offences, but in further legislation, but that should be done in a thoughtful some of those cases the police, the security services, the way, with proper scrutiny, not left until the last minute courts, and the prison and probation service are all and, as a result, done in a breathless rush. aware that they are dealing with people who are capable of something even more serious. Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con): The MAPPA People have raised concerns about applying these review provides exactly that opportunity. We need this new rules to those currently serving their sentences, and emergency legislation to go through, but it is by reviewing I accept the Government’s legal advice on the fact that the MAPPA process that we will see results. One of the the proposal does not change the length of sentences. most crucial changes that I would like to the MAPPA We have always had administrative rules about the way process is to include Prevent co-ordinators in MAPPA in which sentences are served. For example, people are meetings, because Prevent co-ordinators can understand out on licence for the bit of the sentence that is served in that someone newly released has come to their community the community. However, if licence terms are breached, and say, “That individual is still a threat for the following people can be returned to prison to continue their reasons. I can map this individual against the communities sentence in custody, so that concept of risk is built into and groups that they might be a risk to.” This emergency the criminal justice system, the system of custody and legislation is important because, for example, if we had the system of sentencing. That is why it is right that the had it in place, Anjem Choudary would still be in prison, Parole Board should be able to assess the risk in such but the crucial change will be to MAPPA so that cases, just as they do in many other cases. It is sensible Prevent co-ordinators can know where Anjem Choudary and proportionate. has gone and can therefore provide a relevant analysis I have already said to Ministers that it is important of what he will do. that this legislation is drawn up in a way that is robust against legal challenge, particularly to ensure that Parole Yvette Cooper: I completely agree. Having a link Board assessments can take place. I agree with both the between Prevent programmes and the MAPPA process Lord Chancellor and my hon. Friend the shadow Minister is extremely important. There is a question here for the that we must ensure that we keep our communities safe Government about how the MAPPA review and the and do what is right while defending the British values Prevent review are going to link together. The problem of the rule of law and supporting the European convention is that we do not have a chair in place for the Prevent on human rights—all the very things that terrorists try review, and I am unsure of the Government’s plans for to undermine and threaten. the timetable for the two different reviews. It might be I also accept the need for emergency legislation and helpful, in fact, if the Minister were able to say something accept the Government’s warnings that they, the police in his winding-up speech about how the two reviews will and security services are concerned about other individuals interact and how the Prevent review will be put back on who might otherwise be released without parole assessment track with somebody in place. and who they believe are a danger to the public and What happens before a terrorist incident happens should not be released early without any kind of assessment. and what happens afterwards—whether that be in prison However, it is right to raise a concern that it is not ideal or probation or in assessment—need to be properly to be making this kind of legislation in a day. It is right integrated, and the expertise in different parts of the that we do so in these circumstances, but the Government system needs to be pulled together and effectively must recognise that it is not ideal to rush through co-ordinated. We have known for some time that Sudesh legislation breathlessly. Amman was due to be released this January, for example, To be honest, there have been many warnings that so we need a more effective system to anticipate the such an issue was coming down the track, because the challenges, because there have been previous opportunities Government have known about the problem for some time. to change the legislation. 891 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 892 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill We also need to address what happens at the end of end up being converted not just to Islam but to extreme the sentence, because my hon. Friend the Member for perversions of the religion that are, in fact, an ideology, Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) is right to not a religion. describe this legislation as a sticking plaster if we do not A Wigan man was convicted of far-right extremism, look more widely. When the Parole Board decides that but the judge concluded that this person would be somebody still poses a serious risk, that person will still, vulnerable to further radicalisation and chose not to however, have served their time after, say, another couple give him a prison sentence on that basis. We are in a of years. If they still pose a threat to the public at that very uneasy situation if our courts are reluctant to give point, we still will not have addressed the heart of the prison sentences because they fear greater radicalisation. problem. The former independent reviewer of terrorism The prison system, which is supposed to be keeping us legislation, Lord Anderson, pointed out that if they are and our communities safe from extremism and terrorist sufficiently dangerous to end up serving their whole threats, may instead be contributing to the problem sentence in custody, they will not have any further and, in some cases, making matters worse. licensing conditions attached at the end of their sentence, I do not doubt the huge commitment and hard work nor will they be subject to further supervision. of many people across our prison system to try to tackle In the past, we had control orders and imprisonment radicalisation and extremism. However, the evidence we for public protection sentences to address such have seen from the outside is that the system simply is circumstances. The Minister will know that I opposed not working. It is not enough for the Lord Chancellor the removal of control orders, and we have had debates simply to give us his word that things have improved if about the decision to end rather than just to reform there is no proper system of oversight or checks and IPPs. However, in their absence, the question for the balances to ensure that progress is being made. I urge Government is whether the existing arrangements with the Lord Chancellor and the Minister to talk to the TPIMs, for example, are sufficient to address the Justice Committee about what more can be done to circumstances for individuals coming out at the end of ensure proper oversight so that we can be sure we are their sentence, having served the full sentence in custody, making progress on what is happening both inside and with no licence conditions attached. Do the Government outside prisons. have plans to address those individuals should they still We all have a shared interest in ensuring that extremists prove to be a danger? and terrorists are not able to threaten our way of life, to There is also a massive problem with what is happening put people’s lives at risk or to threaten our communities in our prisons. The Chair of the Justice Committee has and our democracy. There has often been cross-party already raised this, but we do not yet have effective consensus on the need to take a sensible approach to enough de-radicalisation programmes in prison. Former ensuring we protect both people’s safety and the values public prosecutors have warned that they have been that terrorists challenge—the values of the rule of law and underfunded. Academics point out that some prisoners our democratic institutions. We need to challenge their who are willing to go on de-radicalisation programmes ideology and work ever harder to make sure the systems wait so long to get on them that they are released before that are supposed to address this can properly do so. they are able to do so. There are, of course, concerns It is therefore not a surprise that we have cross-party about the effectiveness of the assessment of de-radicalisation consensus in support of the Bill today. This is a sensible programmes, the interaction between programmes that and proportionate response to keep people safe and to may work in the community but not in prison, and the address a genuine problem to which the criminal system best way to do this. has to adjust and adapt. It is also imperative on all of us Nobody should ever pretend that this is easy or that to work further across parties to address some of the there is a magical response to solve the problems. However, deeper, longer-term problems, on which the Government there are real worries that we are not doing everything need to do more. I hope we will be able to work across we could in prisons. The concerns raised by Ian Acheson, parties on addressing those longer-term challenges so who conducted an independent review of Islamist that we can do a better job of keeping us safe. extremism in the prison and probation service, are really serious. He said that frontline prison staff were 2.43 pm ill-equipped to handle the situation, prison imams did Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): I follow the line not possess the tools or the will to tackle extreme taken by the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract ideology,the intelligence gathering system was not working, and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) on the cross-party and there were serious problems of lack of leadership consensus that is needed in passing this Bill. and management and a lack of end-to-end systems. He However, as I have already indicated in a number of concluded by saying that, frankly,the prisons are struggling interventions, I am concerned about the restrictive and to cope. restricted nature of this Bill. We should get the Justice I heard what the Lord Chancellor said about things Committee to look at the longer-term issues raised by having moved on, but there is a problem in that we these incidents, murders and terrorist offences. I entirely cannot judge whether that is right because the Government understand why this Bill has been introduced, and I have refused to publish the entire Acheson report. I support it. I am glad the House, as a whole, has clearly understand that there are sensitivities around radicalisation, indicated the same. but even Ian Acheson is not able to say, “Yes, all the We have to take these problems seriously, as they are problems are being addressed.” deeply entrenched in parts of our society, and they will There are continual reports of people being further continue. They will not change just because this emergency radicalised in prison. These are cases not where legislation has been passed. The Bill will have a limited de-radicalisation fails but where, in fact, there is greater effect, so we need a longer-term assessment of the real radicalisation. Non-radicalised people who go into prison problems that underpin it. 893 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 894 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Sir William Cash] amendments. I imagine that the Committee stage will be pretty truncated, so I am not going to go into this in In response to the intervention by my right hon. Committee in the detail that I will now. As this is a Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), I Second Reading issue and a matter of principle, let me mentioned the state of mind of some of the people say that we should include in the Bill, in clause 1, the concerned and the question of whether, in certain cases, exclusion of the Human Rights Act 1998. I have something it is evidence of some degree of insanity,of a drug-affected of a history in that respect, but so do the Foreign mind or of mental disturbance on such a scale as to Secretary and many others, such as the distinguished impinge on the question of mens rea. We do not have Martin Howe, QC. We were regarded as highly time to go into all of it this afternoon, but I want such unfashionable some years ago, but issues of the kind that longer-term assessments because some of these people, gravitate around the Bill have drawn attention to the from whatever part of society, have had to be confined fact that we have to take these matters really seriously. I to Broadmoor and other similar secure places because understand that the Bingham Centre has made a number of their mental state. I put that on the record as a of representations on the matter, and there are clear suggestion that needs to be taken up by the Justice indications that there are lawyers of some notoriety, if Committee and, indeed, other Committees. not distinction, who will seek to overturn the provisions I also raised in an intervention that, for me, this Bill of this Bill by going to the courts. I deplore the fact that does not answer the question of why automatic early they would seek to do so. release, with the agreement of the Parole Board, should I am looking forward to the discussion in the House be moved from halfway to two thirds of a sentence. In of Lords on this matter, because there are distinguished circumstances where we are dealing with public safety lawyers on all sides of the debate in that House, who, and human life, I do not see why two thirds should be with the greatest respect to all of us here in the House of chosen as a boundary line. There are circumstances in Commons, have been practising at the Bar, have been in very severe cases where I do not believe there should be the Supreme Court and so on. They will be able to bring any release at all, for the reasons I have already touched to bear the right degree of analysis of the case law, on in relation to certain people’s instability of mind. which needs to be looked at carefully in this context.

Alicia Kearns: Does my hon. Friend agree that terrorists Sir John Hayes: As ever, my hon. Friend is making a are traitors? They have declared this country their enemy, compelling case. I suggest to him that this requires a and they have declared he and I, and civilians, as more fundamental review of the characteristic and extent legitimate targets to be murdered and assaulted on our of rights, and how they relate to citizenship, duty, streets. I therefore agree entirely that they should serve responsibility and the public good. I wonder what he at least their full sentence. We should be looking at far thinks of that. longer sentences than just 14 years. Sir William Cash: That is an extremely important Sir William Cash: My hon. Friend touches on a point point. As my right hon. Friend knows, I have the that I raised several years ago, shortly after the infamous, greatest respect for his analysis when it moves from not terrible murder of Lee Rigby.On the question of persons just the law into the broader societal and philosophical returning to this country from ISIS, I told the House questions, which ought to inform opinions made in this that, as far as I was concerned, the issue of their return House; we should not just treat issues of this kind as if should be evaluated in accordance with article 8 of the they are somehow matters of semantics. We are dealing convention on the reduction of statelessness, which with the kind of society that we want, and the impact of makes it clear that a person can be made stateless if the terrorism, and murderous and dangerous behaviour, they give allegiance to another country—the caliphate of the perpetrators of these crimes our own constituents. could be regarded as such in this context. I accept this is A most recent case involved somebody who travelled controversial, but the United States, for example, already from Stafford down to London, and therefore was a applies article 8 in that way. If the person in question matter of immediate concern to my constituents, because gives allegiance to another country, by definition they he had been living there for some time. The manner in have moved into the zone of treason and have deliberately which he was allowed to leave to come down to London and voluntarily abdicated their allegiance to this country. and commit murder in Fishmongers’ Hall and in the I put that on the record because we have to take these vicinity is a lesson for us all. matters extremely seriously, and I attempted to make I now want to deal with the retrospectivity elements such an amendment to the Counter-Terrorism and Security of this Bill, which relate to my general concern to tie Act 2015. This is about not just external activities, but down this issue in the longer term. The Chair of the internal ones, within our domestic law, so we need to Justice Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for take this incredibly seriously. That is why I am appealing Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), and I had for this longer term assessment of all these questions, an exchange about a number of cases. I am well aware including the one my hon. Friend has raised, because it that this is not the place for us to attempt to make an is so important and cannot just be put into a category assumption that we are able to treat this Chamber as of “rather extravagant thinking”. This is really serious. though it is a court of law, although we are, of course, As I said earlier, human life and public safety are the High Court of Parliament, but that is to miss the much more important than the question of whether the point; the fact is that proper analysis of the case law has courts may or may not interpret a particular provision to be conducted. Some of that has already been done in in a more “fashionable” judicial interpretation than we blogging and in some pamphlets, and I am expecting ought to expect of our courts. I go further and say that the House of Lords to home in on it effectively when human life is more important than any legal interpretation the Bill gets to that House, although it will not have much of human rights, which is why I have tabled my time. 895 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 896 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill We know that Ministers have been warned about the My conclusion on this point is simple: the courts would likelihood of a legal battle; despite the assertions of the be expected to give retrospective effect to the Bill. Government that the Bill is compatible with article 7 of The principle I wish to address is that I am concerned the European convention on human rights—for reasons that the courts have a disinclination and reluctance to that I will explain, I am sympathetic to their view—there give effect to retrospective legislation, particularly when are those who will argue that it is not. I can see this it deals with criminal acts. That is well established, and I coming, so my amendment would remove any chance could quote Bradley and Ewing, page 56, which explains that there could be that kind of legal battle on the that. Although I do not think that article 7 applies to applicability of the Human Rights Act to this Bill. My the Bill, to ensure that the courts do not find a way amendment would insert the words around the Bill or a misguided interpretation that would “notwithstanding the Human Rights Act 1998”. frustrate its real purpose, I shall move my amendment That is a belt-and-braces approach, and it is what I am in Committee, for the purposes of legislative clarity and seeking. I am not going to move this amendment in for the avoidance of doubt in relation to the power of Committee with any intention of dividing the Committee Parliament to legislate retrospectively.That is the principle of the whole House on it; I think the matter needs that I am addressing at this moment. further consideration outside this House, and I look to I have no further comment to make for the purposes the House of Lords for some indication of views. of this debate, but this matter has to be taken seriously. My argument goes like this: this Bill is compatible The wording that I intend to introduce in Committee with article 7. No one has read it out so far, so I will do will be taken as a serious attempt to make sure that no so. It states: way around the provisions is found by the courts or by “No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence”— some ingenious lawyers, who would avoid and frustrate for conduct — the purposes and principle of the Bill, as expressed on Second Reading, which we are debating. “which did not constitute a criminal offence…at the time when it was committed.” This Bill does not purport to create a new criminal 3.1 pm offence. Rather, it seeks to prevent terrorists convicted Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): It is always a by UK courts on the basis of offences that existed prior pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William to the Bill from having automatic early release. I have Cash). He referred to lawyers of some “notoriety” already made my point about the length of time indicated. rather than, perhaps, remarkable lawyers; he is not the Furthermore, the explanatory notes state: former. He has raised in the House the considerations “The Bill does not retrospectively alter a serving offender’s relating to his amendment, so should this matter ever sentence as imposed by the court, or alter the maximum penalties reach the courts for adjudication, the courts may, having for offences.” been served with notice that the wording he proposes in They state that the Bill is concerned with the “administration his amendment should have been in the Bill, be even of a sentence”. I still believe, despite the exchanges I more inclined to accept the argument, knowing that had with the Chairman of the Justice Committee, that Parliament was fully apprised of the considerations and the del Río Prada case could well still come into play had the opportunity so to heed the advice. That said, it there. I fear that it might be used effectively against the was pragmatic of the hon. Member to indicate that Bill. So my conclusion on the question of a textual although he may move his amendment, he may not interpretation of article 7 of the ECHR indicates that is force it to a vote, hoping instead that it is considered in not incompatible with this Bill. However, Parliament the other place. I understand why he did that. does have the power to legislate retrospectively— I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this debate, which has been incredibly positive so far. We Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): have been considering a serious issue, but every Member Order. I just want to let the hon. Gentleman know that I who has spoken so far has done so with a determination— am sure he will have the opportunity in Committee to in recognition of the difficulties that we have faced as a address his amendment. I am sure he will be aware that society from terrorism in responding appropriately, there are quite a few people who wish to speak on Second pragmatically, sensibly and swiftly—that this debate Reading; I just want to assure him that he will be able to should add to the response that we as a Parliament should address his amendment during the Committee stage. bring. It was of benefit to hear from the hon. Member for Sir William Cash: I do understand that, but I also East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill), if I may mention him anticipate that there may be a need for brevity at that specifically. He is new to the House, but he has incredible point. That is how these things go, from my experience, knowledge of a parliamentary approach to early release. which goes back some time. I am talking about matters He did not refer to any individual cases in his remarks, of principle. I repeat: I am talking about matters of but Members should know that the hon. Member has principle. been through the political, practical, public and moral As established by Willes J in Phillips v. Eyre, courts rigours of early release for those engaged in terrorist ascribe retrospective force to new laws that affect rights offences. We have benefited from his insight. only if Reference has been made already to the contributions “by express words or necessary implication that such was the from the former reviewers of terrorism and terrorist intention of the legislature”. legislation, Lord Anderson and Lord Carlile, the latter Clause 1 will amend the Criminal Justice Act 2003 and of whom has indicated that he believes that the Bill will expressly restrict eligibility for the release of prisoners be subject to legal challenge. Of course, that may be who have been sentenced for a terrorist offence right, but I do not think that ultimately the House “whether before or after this section comes into force”. should fear that. It is appropriate that if people feel this 897 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 898 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Gavin Robinson] murdered by loyalist paramilitaries in my constituency. In four and a half years, we have had three individual legislation is incompatible with the European convention murders by three different paramilitary terrorist on human rights they get the opportunity to challenge organisations, at a time of peace.So it does jar,whenever we it in the courts, but the Lord Chancellor expertly took lend our weight—give our support—to counter-terrorism the House through all the implications as to whether measures in this place, that we are not incorporated. article 7 is engaged. It is surely engaged, but not in a Members who have an interest in Northern Ireland fundamentally flawed way. It is fair for us to say that, affairs will be aware that the political process and the yes, there are the considerations that we have discussed Good Friday agreement led to the early release of this afternoon and that will be discussed in another terrorist prisoners in Northern Ireland, and that there place and in the courts, but I believe that ultimately this were two protections. Everyone was released on licence, Bill is the right approach for Parliament to take. and legislative provision was made for those licences to The right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract be revoked if it was the view of the Secretary of State and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) rightly referred to the that the person had engaged in activity that was leaning comments of Lord Anderson QC. It was entirely towards paramilitary or terrorist activity yet again: the appropriate for Lord Anderson to say that should this Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998 and the Life process, through this Bill, exhaust the opportunity for Sentences (Northern Ireland) Order 2001. licence, compliance and control within the public sector In preparation for the introduction of this Bill, I and society at large, that would be a missed opportunity. tabled questions to the Northern Ireland Office to ask We need to be alive to that in this debate. I think the how many people who had been jailed in Northern Lord Chancellor nodded when he was considering TPIMs Ireland as a result of terrorist activity had been released and the protective measures that have been in place and and had their licence subsequently revoked because of that could be put to good use. Licensing and rehabilitation their activity. One answer, on the 1998 Act, was that two are important parts of the criminal justice process, so licences had been revoked since 1998, but I got the most the retention of someone in custody, without giving obtuse answer on those who had licences revoked under them the opportunity under control orders, is something the Life Sentences (Northern Ireland) Order. that we should think about. We should recognise that if When you are trying to paint a picture, Madam somebody spends the entirety of their sentence in custody Deputy Speaker, and you are trying to do research to without any control on release, that places an even bigger understand where we have had parallel experiences in burden on our security services, when other aspects of the past, and where people have been released for altogether the criminal justice system should be more appropriately different political reasons and under a different political engaged in monitoring, surveying and ensuring compliance settlement but have had licences revoked because they and the rehabilitation of offenders who have been brought re-engaged in terrorist activity, it is important that this before the courts previously. House has those figures. The answer, from 2001 to 2020, As a representative from Northern Ireland, I must was that policing and justice was devolved in 2010. focus on the fact that the Bill does not apply to our That answer tells us nothing. I think it entirely jurisdiction. The Lord Chancellor did proffer a view—I discourteous to me, as a Member of Parliament seeking think this fairly reflects his comments—that the way we information, and to the House. It does not answer the calculate sentences in Northern Ireland means that question about 2001 to 2010 and it does not answer the although the Bill does not fundamentally or injuriously question about licences revoked under national security engage article 7 considerations in England and Wales or considerations—information that would have been Scotland, it would in Northern Ireland. I would be keen appropriate and important to inform us during the passage to explore that in greater detail with the Minister somewhere of the Bill. else. I do not think it would be appropriate to do that on the Floor of the House this afternoon, but it is worthy Sir William Cash: I am very interested in what the of further interrogation. I do not challenge what the hon. Gentleman is saying. I wonder whether steps are Lord Chancellor said on the Floor of the House, believing being taken to raise these matters, not only as he is what he said to be true, but I am not sure that what was doing in Westminster, but also now in Stormont. Is that indicated is right, nor indeed do I believe that it was the now under consideration in the context of the Bill? totality of the issues that may have been under consideration in connection with the Bill and its application to Northern Gavin Robinson: That is a very fair question. When Ireland. I say that as somebody who has contributed national security considerations are engaged—so that to many debates on terrorism and who lamented the relates to terrorism—the devolved institutions at Stormont fact that the counter-extremism strategy was introduced do not have a role; that remains the competence of the in this place and similarly did not apply to Northern Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. But there are Ireland. issues that I want to pursue, and I hope the Minister The House knows the history that we in Northern will give a commitment that we can have a discussion Ireland have had in respect of both terrorism and about article 7 and how it is engaged differently, in a extremism. I have made the point in the Chamber way that makes the Bill incompatible with the European before that as a Member of Parliament for four and a convention on human rights but not in England, Scotland half years I have seen a member of my own constituency or Wales. murdered by the Provisional IRA, an organisation that Madam Deputy Speaker,I think you know our position most in the Chamber would believe does not exist any when it comes to legislation to protect society and more; I have had a prison officer in my constituency curtail the excesses of those who want to frustrate murdered by dissident republicans through an under-car everything we value in the United Kingdom—the positive booby-trap bomb; and in January last year I had a father values and principles that we hold dear in this Parliament 899 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 900 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill and in this place. We will support this Bill and I am punishing guilty people who have, through due process, grateful for the opportunity to make those ancillary been found to have done the most awful, horrendous, comments about Northern Ireland, which I hope help things, and we should not be ashamed to say that. to set this debate in context. As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I was pleased 3.12 pm and proud, as Security Minister,to guide the Investigatory Powers Bill—the 2016 Act—through the House. That Bill Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) struck a balance between the protection of the public and (Con): Except for love infused by hope, fear is the most the necessary safeguards that should always be applied vivid of emotions. Love is perhaps more readily when we are limiting people’s freedoms—maintaining remembered, but fear is more easily envisaged, because the tenets of a free society and defending those freedoms fear in itself is the imagining of horror that might from the anarchy of fear and disorder. happen. That is whyprovoking fear has been the instrument of bullies, thugs, despots and torturers through the Since that time, many people have been released early. ages—to terrorise, hurt, harm, maim and murder is I shall be brief because I am anxious to allow others to designed to intimidate each and all of us, and to undermine contribute, but before I conclude I shall look at the the certainty of order that underpins social solidarity. numbers. I consulted the Library, as good Members of this House do, and was surprised and disappointed to Today the provisions we debate are designed to revisit find that since 2013 something like 163 convicted terrorists the means of re-establishing order, and to reassure the had been released early. By the way, I excluded from my virtuous that the wicked will not succeed. The Secretary of considerations anyone who had been serving a sentence State described in his opening remarks the metamorphosis of less than a year, so those are just the people serving a of terrorism—the fact that it is constantly changing, sentence of somewhere between 12 months and more and so becoming harder to counter. There are obvious than four years. Therefore, leaving aside short sentences, changes: the adaptability—the flexibility—of terrorists, the more serious terrorist prisoners had been released in and the instruments used to terrorise are altering. The significant numbers. Just imagine the effect on our spontaneity of terrorism is altering, too. The business Security Service and police of having to deal with the of the security services and the police, and the legislation consequences of those releases. that underpins their business, must be just as flexible—must adapt to meet the changing character of terrorism. Some of those released will have been rehabilitated The security services and the police, as I learned and deradicalised, but we know that that does not when I was the Security Minister, constantly refine what always happen. I strongly support the legislation, which they do to anticipate and counter fanaticism, but early strikes the right balance. Ordered societies are built on release is bound to undermine their morale, as well as to the protection and promotion of shared public interest stretch their capacity.The number of subjects of interest, and the defence of the common good. To face down leaving aside those that have been released from prison terrorism and the fear that it spawns, and to face up to early, already presents an extraordinary challenge to our responsibility to protect the people we serve, we our security services and police, as we know from should support this legislation as it progresses through various debates that we have had and various reports on the House. I anticipate that it will be necessary to this matter, about which time prevents me from going challenge those who seek to undermine it on the grounds into detail. Simultaneously, public faith in the rule of of advocating the rights of certain people. We in the law is critical, and I suspect that most of our constituents House of Commons must stand together to defend the would be amazed that we have released so many terrorist common good and promote the national interest. convicts early. I think they would regard that with 3.20 pm disbelief. That we have allowed formulaic leniency to characterise the treatment of convicted terrorists is Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab): extraordinary, and in my judgment unacceptable. It is always a privilege to follow the right hon. Member It is not as if there had not been warnings, as the right for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes). hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford I was privileged to work with him when he was Minister (Yvette Cooper) said. In 2018, signals were sent that for Security—a time he mentioned in his speech. this would have the kind of consequences that we have My thoughts are with the victims of all terrorist now met with horror.The Government are acting decisively attacks and their families, and I recognise the hardship in response, to reinforce the legislative powers necessary that they have all gone through. It is important, in this to allow the police and the security services to protect debate and in any debate on the subject, that we remember the public. Public safety, as has been said repeatedly, is those who have suffered incredibly because of our failures the heart of this business. as parliamentarians, failures of our legislation, and I suspect that, as the Chair of the Justice Committee failures in the support with which we provide people. said, the enhanced role for parole boards will require There are two issues to consider: resources for our greater expertise. The measurement of risk will also Prison Service, and the things behind that—the soft change, as the character of terrorism and our response power, which we need to get right. It is not enough to to it changes. We need to be able to assess risk, as we extend sentences; we have to put right the things behind always have, in respect of early release, for parole is that. That is what I want to concentrate on. Of course about measurement of risk—it always has been—but it we should look at the number of prison officers and the is also rooted in the idea that someone who is going to support they get—a point my hon. Friend the Member be released early deserves to be released, and will not for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) rightly made. It is create further harm and danger. I believe that the important to ensure the right corrective controls in the rehabilitative aspect of criminal justice is accepted across prison framework. At the moment, we are failing on the Chamber, but the retributive aspect of justice should that. We need to get that right, get proper resourcing, be accepted too. This is also about punishment—about and move forward. 901 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 902 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Mr Khalid Mahmood] A big functional issue in prison is how we position inmates. The Acheson report looks at segregating these A lot of Members spoke about imams coming into prisoners. How to deradicalise is a really big issue. If we prisons. The issue is twofold; there is the question of put these prisoners all together, they become a group. If psychotherapy and counselling for the people they are we put them with other prisoners, they radicalise them. visiting, and the need to tackle those people’s misguided We cannot keep prisoners on their own, because human version of Islam. They do not practise Islam; they rights law does not allow that. There is no magic wand practise what they believe is Islam. Islam in itself is a of deradicalisation. We have to take the issue very peaceful religion. seriously. We have to get the right people, with the right understanding. Good work has been done in Indonesia, Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): As a the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia on ways religious education teacher, I concur with the hon. of deradicalising. We have to learn lessons from how Member’s viewpoint. In no way do the radical views of those countries are proceeding, in order to address this small minority reflect the views of Islam. I am glad these issues. We have to go further in looking at those he raised this point; it is important that we ensure that it methods, whether they are relevant, and how they relate comes across in our national media, and in national to what the community wants to do. debates. We have to look not just at prisons, but at external departments that deal with the issue. We have to consider MrMahmood:Ithankthehon.Memberforhiscontribution. education, under what licences we allow madrassahs to How do we assess and work with these radicalised operate—if they have a licence at all. The only consideration people? A lot has been made of deradicalisation, but we for a local authority in granting permission for a madrassah need the right people, theologically speaking, to do it. is whether it would cause traffic congestion. If an We do not have a principal education facility to train applicant clears that hurdle, they can have one. No heed imams who go into prisons. I had a friend who was is given to the qualifications of the imam, there is no deputy governor at HMP Birmingham. The prison proper scrutiny of their past, and there are no security brought in an imam to try to speak to somebody who checks. Those are very important issues for us to look at was radicalising the rest of the inmates. After a two-hour in deciding how we move forward. one-to-one, the imam came out saying, “I think I agree As for the people we know of, they are the tip of the with the inmate.” That was due to the so-called imam’s iceberg. There is still significant radicalisation taking lack of knowledge. Just because someone calls themselves place, and we need to address that in the community. an imam, it does not mean that they are able to deal with Radicalisation is progressing in prisons because there is this important issue. a captive audience there. We need to move forward. We need to look at the availability of resources in prisons, Dr Julian Lewis: Is the situation not even a little because the resources that are required to deal with this worse than that? There have been reports of imams problem are quite significant from the Deobandi sect of Salafists being allowed access to prisoners. While we are looking at Islamic extremism, we also need to look at far-right extremism. If this Bill is to Mr Mahmood: The right hon. Member speaks from apply to terrorists, it must also apply to far-right extremists experience of these issues. He is quite right to say that. —it is important that that is said. The contribution of It is very difficult for those who do not understand my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, religion to put people into places of religious control Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) made a lot and support. That is my clear point. We should have of sense. I pay tribute to her for the great work that proper registration of people who go into these institutions. she has done on these issues, including as Chair of the Anybody who goes into them should be required to Home Affairs Committee. She deserves commendation have the proper qualifications and certifications, yet we for the great balance with which she has worked on let most people walk in, and we say that they can do this these matters. It is important for that work to move job. We have heard stories of radicalisation being forward. perpetuated in certain prisons by some of the people It is also important to look at how we police these who have gone into them. It is important that we look issues. As my right hon. Friend said, we need to look at how we move forward. again at control orders for when people come out of prison. In the past 10 years, we have forgotten about Sir John Hayes: I intervene partly to pay tribute to control orders. We need to get back to that issue, look at the hon. Gentleman for the good work that he has done what is valid and appropriate, and see how we can move in this field over a considerable time. He points out the forward. That is hugely important. difference between Islamism and Islam—a difference too rarely identified by our media, as he says. Perhaps a I support the Bill because it is necessary for us to review of all the Prison Service’s work on the appointment move forward with the resources currently available to of imams and their work in prisons should be part of us, but we need to have a much deeper look at how the Government’s ongoing plans to address the issue. to resolve this issue for all our communities in the long term. Mr Mahmood: Again, I concur with the right hon. Member. As for the Government moving forward on 3.30 pm this, for the past 10 years we have not paid enough Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con): I will speak briefly attention to what has gone on. We need to look at this about why I welcome the Bill and why I believe it is seriously. The two incidents we are considering, as well necessary to tackle the issues on which many hon. as others, and the potential release of other prisoners Members have made very good speeches this afternoon. have brought the issue to our attention. May I first congratulate the Prime Minister, the Lord 903 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 904 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill Chancellor and Ministers from the Department on the police and all those in the emergency services across the constructive and decisive action that they have taken? I country who have to deal with these incidents? I also pay particular tribute to the Labour party and the pay tribute and my respects to the victims and their families. shadow Solicitor General for supporting this measure, As I said, we cannot say with certainty that something which I think shows the importance of the subject. like this will not happen again, but we can give certainty As the Lord Chancellor said, the first duty of any to people across the country that the perpetrators of Government is to keep their people safe, and this Bill these crimes are put away and kept away, with the goes some way to increasing the likelihood that that will reassurance that if they are, in consultation with the happen. It increases the likelihood of ending the uncertainty Parole Board, released two thirds of the way through for victims, their families and those who have been their sentence, they will be monitored properly and in affected by these atrocities, and it will go some way to conjunction with the Parole Board. restoring the confidence of my constituents and people Colleagues in all parts of the House will have their across the country in the sentencing guidelines for people own memories of attacks like these, as do so many of us who commit these most hideous crimes. who live or work in London. We must never forget those I want briefly to talk about how terrorism affects who have lost their lives due to the barbaric actions of everybody, directly or indirectly.There are two occasions terrorists. We must also never let the spectre of terrorism in particular that stick in my mind. The first was 7/7. I stop us from living well. The aim of terrorism, as I have was 15 years old at the time and—I hope hon. Members outlined, is to spread fear. I am enormously proud that do not tell me off—I chose that day not to go into the people of London—I am originally a Londoner—are school. I remember the breaking news coming through not allowing these attacks to succeed by making us too on the television. My father was working in London at afraid to go about our daily lives. This Bill goes some that time. In fact, my family were all working in London; way towards removing the fear of victims, because the I am a Londoner. I remember trying to make some phone killers in these cases will serve their sentences and be calls to see whether they were okay. For some reason, I monitored properly. The involvement of the Parole got a crossed line and got through to a lady when I Board is absolutely essential, and I am grateful to the called my father’s phone. This woman was trying to find Lord Chancellor for outlining that. out where her daughter was because she was using the We must question why these attacks happen. The tube that morning. She was terrified, fearful and concerned perpetrators of the attack at London Bridge in November about where her daughter was. We spoke for just two and of this month’s attack in Streatham were both minutes, but I tried to reassure her and she reassured me. released from prison automatically at the halfway point The other occasion was the Westminster Bridge attack, of their sentence, with no involvement from the Parole which happened while I was a special adviser to Sir Patrick Board, to serve the rest of their sentence on licence. The McLoughlin. I was walking up Whitehall when the fact that they were able to commit these atrocities shows shots were fired, and was locked down in the Cabinet that this approach must be changed, and that is why I Office. Sir Patrick was locked down in here. Members of am glad that the Government are doing so with this my family were desperately trying to find out whether I Bill. It is vital that automatic release is not applied to was okay, and I was trying to find out whether friends those convicted of terrorism offences and that the Parole in this House and around the Chamber were okay. I Board is involved in each of these cases to assess mention both those occasions to show that we are all whether or not these people should be released. affected by terrorism. However, I do ask for some reassurance from the Terrorism spreads fear,harms lives and, most importantly, Minister on the point raised by my right hon. Friend the costs lives. But this Bill goes some way to giving some Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May). If the perpetrators reassurance to the victims, families and people who are of these attacks serve a full sentence or go through affected by terrorism that those who commit these release in consultation with the Parole Board, we must crimes will go to prison and stay there. Sadly, we cannot not see that as the end of the journey. Rehabilitation, say with certainty that attacks such as the ones I have and a reassurance to people across this country that mentioned will not happen again. We all know that; I these people are being watched and monitored, is absolutely am afraid that it is the nature of the beast. vital. We do not want another Streatham to happen. We know that this guy was on the records of the security services. Despite these actions being taken, it is absolutely Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con): vital that we have some reassurance that we will go My hon. Friend spoke extremely eloquently about his further to make sure that these people are being monitored own experiences in London. Greater Manchester has adequately. certainly experienced its fair share of terrorism, including the 1996 bombing and the atrocity at Manchester Arena These changes will not only make us safer but give just three years ago. Does he agree that the terror does the public more confidence in the ability of our criminal not just stop with the initial act, and that by restricting justice system to deal with terrorists. This is a valuable early release we are at least giving the family some and much-needed piece of legislation. Moreover, it is comfort, some measure of protection from the damaging the right thing to do. The Lord Chancellor is right to effects of the attacks and a chance to heal? take action and should be congratulated on doing so swiftly. That is why I will support the Bill this evening. Paul Holmes: I absolutely agree. As he represents a constituency from that region, he will have seen the 3.37 pm concern and fear that went across the region at the time Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD): I, too, put on record of those attacks. That is absolutely why the Bill is my thanks to the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, necessary. May I pay tribute—as I should have done at the hon. Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp), who the beginning of my speech—to the security services, the has kept me updated in recent days. 905 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 906 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Daisy Cooper] Daisy Cooper: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for making that point, which relates to both capacity and In the wake of the two recent terrorist attacks, it is what can be done in prisons and while prisoners are on absolutely right that the Government look at the legal licence to ensure that they are deradicalised and to framework to decide whether it is adequate. Like the assess their behaviours. hon. Member for Eastleigh (Paul Holmes), I was caught As I was saying, there is currently no evidence that up in the 7/7 bombing. I was on one of the tube trains longer periods in prison have any rehabilitative effect, behind the one that was blown up at Russell Square, and there is some evidence to suggest that they might be and I remember the unbearable heat that came from the counterproductive. For all of us who put national and blast. I was also in this place during the Westminster public safety first, that should be very worrying. lockdown. The hon. Gentleman is right that many of us have been affected by acts of terrorism, but with respect, The third element of the Bill is retrospectivity. many of us nevertheless come to this debate with slightly Retrospectively applying the first part of the Bill, to end different views. automatic release, is fine, but retrospectively moving the release point is problematic. The Government and some This Bill does three things. First, it brings about an Members today have pointed to individual parts of case end to automatic release and applies that retrospectively. law, but there is a long-established principle against the That is overdue, but very welcome. Liberal Democrats retrospectivity of criminal laws. The Government have have said before, and we say again, that this part of the suggested that this is only about changing the administration law is currently wrong, and it is right that this House of a sentence, whereas legal commentators have pointed seeks to change it. The Government are rushing this Bill out that the Bill arguably also changes the scope of the through to get to Royal Assent before the end of the penalty. The Bingham Centre for the Rule of Law said month and before the scheduled release of other terrorists. in its briefing circulated to Members this morning: However, this part of the Bill alone, on ending automatic “By effectively overturning judicial decisions about sentencing release and applying that retrospectively, would achieve the Bill also comes uncomfortably close to legislative interference the Government’s goal—and, indeed, the priority of all with the judicial function.” of us to keep the public safe. This part of the Bill alone The last point that I wish to address is the speed with would stop the release of terrorists without Parole Board which the Bill moves forward and the reasons for it. As I agreement. It would be possible to adopt just that part said, nobody wants these prisoners to be automatically of the Bill for it to be a change in the administration of released, and the first part of the Bill would tackle that a sentence in a way that is compatible with the rule and keep the public safe, but there is a reason why we of law. debate and scrutinise laws in both Houses and have However, the Bill tries to do two other things that, I specialist Committees to look at our laws. We know that think it is fair to say, are problematic. The second thing fast law can make bad law, and there is an even greater it tries to do is move the point of release from the risk of that happening when four of the parliamentary halfway point to the two-thirds point for future offences. Committees that would have scrutinised the Bill—the Of course, it is the natural instinct of all of us to have Joint Committee on Human Rights, the Home Affairs bad people locked up for longer, but who would want Committee, the Justice Committee and the Intelligence somebody locked up for longer if there was evidence and Security Committee—have not yet been appointed. that that could in fact make them more radicalised and more dangerous at the point that they are released? Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): Does the hon. Lady recognise that, although policy should be based Sir John Hayes: That is not an argument about the on evidence and research, that is not necessarily a good length of the sentence; that is an argument about how thing in the context of terrorism, where we have an people are dealt with when they are incarcerated. evolving set of threats? With evidence-based research, it can be four years before we formulate and implement policy, by which time the threat has invariably moved Daisy Cooper: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for on. We therefore need to employ a broader range of that point. Much of the evidence suggests that what measures, including the use of specialists in interrogation helps the deradicalisation process is not only how people of those who deceive, to bolster the ability of the Parole are treated when they are incarcerated, but the amount Board, and training material for prison officers and of time they have on licence in order to find a home, those involved in deradicalisation. Speed is required in rebuild family connections and do all the activity outside order to adapt, so I support the Government’s position, prison. There is evidence to suggest that the time on because an evidence-based approach is not appropriate licence can make more of a difference to reducing in this context. reoffending rates and deradicalising people. Daisy Cooper: The hon. Gentleman will recall that, in Dr Julian Lewis: Can we think about specifics? The my opening remarks, I made the point that this was a last two attacks were very different. As I said in an very overdue change. In fact, we have had many years earlier intervention, the second of the two attacks was where we have seen the effects of increased radicalisation by someone who was clearly mentally deranged. The in prison simply because of a lack of resources both for earlier attack was by someone who appeared to have our prisons and for our parole service, so he is right to taken all the deradicalisation on board and to be a point to that element. model prisoner. We have to recognise that we are dealing That leads me very nicely to my next point: because with a kaleidoscope of personalities, not necessarily of the speed of the passage of the Bill, there is not people who have been fooled by something and who can sufficient opportunity for pre-legislative scrutiny.I would reasonably be brought out of that situation. argue that, in the absence of adequate pre-legislative 907 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 908 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill scrutiny, hon. Members should all sign up to a system of their sentence. Indeed, no terrorist offender will be of post-legislative scrutiny. Others in this debate have released before the end of the full custodial term unless called for a review mechanism. The Government say the Parole Board agrees, and that is absolutely right. I there is other legislation coming down the line, but we also welcome measures to rehabilitate and deradicalise. know that legislation can slip, so I will finish by asking Society must always have measures in place to help the Government to think again about this particular eradicate ideologies. Education will play a vital role in point to make sure that we have sufficient post-legislative that, and we need the resources to enable that properly, scrutiny and that this law— as well as work on the root causes of terrorism. For some people, however, there is no way back, and Sir John Hayes: I waited to intervene until a point at it is right that those terrorists who are considered to be which I agreed with the hon. Lady, because I thought a continuing threat to public safety spend the rest of that was in the spirit of this debate. She is right about their time in prison. As we invest in prison capacity, I the need to review these provisions, but as she said a welcome tougher sentences, and a new minimum sentence moment ago, any number of Committees will be able to of 14 years for the worst terrorist offenders. Sadly, do that in the course of time. We can move ahead with terrorism is still prevalent in the world today, but it must rapidity to defend the public, and then look at these not prevail. The Government must show, not just to the matters in the round through the processes she has set public, but to the terrorists, that we will not tolerate out. such despicable acts, and that radicals who are prepared Daisy Cooper: The right hon. Gentleman is right that to commit such acts will pay for them with longer, this legislation will of course be scrutinised in due tougher sentences, and with the loss of that basic right course, but it is vital and right, because we are moving to freedom that they took away from the people they on with it so quickly, that we write into law a statutory harmed. review in one year’s time. I welcome the fact that the Government will increase I conclude by saying that there is a danger that Bill counter-terrorism funding to £906 million, which represents will become a lawof unintended consequences.In summary, a £90 million year-on-year increase. Victims must also we welcome the end to automatic release and doing so be supported, and the immediate investment of £500,000 retrospectively—that is a good move—but we have concerns to increase the support provided by the victims of about changing the release point, particularly if that terrorism unit shows the Government’s determination ends up allowing people to be released who are more to ensure that more victims receive the support and dangerous than before. There are also questions to advice they deserve. I am always proud of the way that answer about the impact on the rule of law in applying the British people bravely come together in the face of retrospectivity to the release point. such attacks, and show beyond doubt that terrorism will never defeat the British spirit. I also pay an enormous 3.47 pm tribute to the policing forces who look after us day after day, and who risk their lives to protect us—not least Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): This Government those who serve in this building—and I commend the are putting their money where their mouth is and doing Bill to the House. exactly what they said they would do to deal with this urgent and specific problem, and I want to thank everybody who has helped put this Bill together. 3.51 pm Following the attack in Streatham, the Government Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): For several years committed to introducing emergency legislation to ensure now, people in the security world have been privately that terrorist offenders, including those currently serving, warning that we face the release of a bulge of extremist will no longer be released early and automatically. The prisoners, after the first wave, 10 or 15 years ago, of House would not think that, back in my home of North significant and serious terror attacks in our country. Of Norfolk, terrorism is much of a problem. I still remember, those who committed the two recent attacks, one terrorist many years ago, when we were the first business in the had a short-term sentence and may not have been part community to take out terrorism insurance, and we of that group, but one certainly was, and had been through wondered at the time why we were doing it. Look how a rehabilitation process. times have changed. It is exactly why we need this Bill I wish to raise some issues, and I hope that the Minister today. will either write to me or respond to them at the end of Sadly, terrorism continues to be a sickening and the debate. I will also refer to recent articles by Ian cowardly set of acts that ruins lives, killing innocent Acheson, who has pertinent things to say—he has been people and devastating communities in our incredible referred to by a number of Members across the House. country. We will not let the terrorists win; nor will we Ian Acheson recently argued that the system for allow extremist behaviour to divide our nation. Many managing extremist prisoners—there are about 220 in Conservatives are here, and we all stood on a manifesto our system overall—is still flawed. Indeed, he described in which we pledged a raft of measures to crack down it as “broken”, and argued that evidence for that came on crime and to introduce tougher sentences. I guess I out at the trial of Mohiussannath Chowdhury, who was speak for everybody here when I say that we are pleased recently convicted of preparing acts of terrorism. that these are well on their way. Acheson described Chowdhury’s time at Belmarsh as This Bill is needed to do just that—to ensure our a form of finishing school where he freely associated country feels safe. It is a fundamental job of Government with other jihadis, including people who were serving a to help to protect their citizens. Those who wish to hurt minimum of 30 or 34 years in prison. He said that us must not be released early, so I welcome the end of Chowdhury regarded what he considered to be a crude, halfway release for terrorist offenders and that offenders de-radicalisation programme as “laughable”, and that cannot be released without serving a minimum of two thirds within days of his release he was planning new attacks 909 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 910 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Bob Seely] person who is sticking a knife to somebody’s throat or walking on to the tube with a bomb as someone in need and waiting for others to be released from prison. What of safeguarding is, frankly, not as important as treating reassurance can the Lord Chancellor provide to show the people that that person is going to kill. They are the that we are moving on from that position? ones in need of safeguarding from that person. When This issue has been of significant concern to people we talk about safeguarding extremist prisoners, I am in the police and other security agencies for some time. wary of using that language—I understand why it is Indeed, we know about the remarkable amount of being done—because I think it goes down a morally police time that goes into monitoring highly dangerous and ethically dangerous route. We are not making a people when they leave prison, because in the most moral distinction between innocence, which is what the recent attack that individual was being monitored. Such term safeguarding should be used for, and people who monitoring is not done just by a single individual; it is want to do considerable harm to other people. Indeed, done by groups and teams of police officers, and others. they see it as a perverted and twisted religious duty, as In the past two weeks, I asked the Lord Chancellor—I part of a holy jihad, to slaughter other people. As my very much hope he will remain in his job; he is doing a right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East cracking job and he is a superb Lord Chancellor—about (Dr Lewis) said, that can be a part of the mindset. It is separation units. He said that he hoped that although on the spectrum of that mindset. the Government were reviewing the situation, we had I know that other Members wish to speak, so I will got the balance about right. I respectfully ask whether wrap up on this point. I would very much like to be that is still the case, because the separation units we reassured on some of the questions and issues I have have are not the units that Ian Acheson recommended. raised, because they are concerns felt by the people who He recommended separation units that would take prisoners are directly responsible for trying to protect the British out of the general prison population to ensure they public, as well as by Members of this House. were completely incapacitated from radicalising others over a significant and sustained period of time, around Several hon. Members rose— which individual responses to those individuals would Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. be built. As other Conservative Members have said, the We have had plenty of time for this debate but there range of psychological conditions of extremists ranges have been some very long speeches. We need to leave from people who are probably just very mentally ill, to time for proper wind-up speeches from Front Benchers— people who are very bad but in absolute, coherent control many people have asked questions of the Minister that of their actions and are very good at radicalising and ought to be answered in here, so there should be time proselytising others. What Acheson describes as a sheep for him—so I will have to ask Members to make very dip approach and generic psycho-social interventions short speeches of three minutes. from secular people—people trained in a secular approach to psychology—will not work for people whose universe 3.59 pm is extremely different and built on a warped but theological basis. Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): We in Acheson said specifically that the Prison Service had this place exercise our duty to protect the people we unwillingly adopted some of his recommendations. The represent, amend the law where appropriate and ensure Lord Chancellor was good enough to say that we were the highest standard of living and safety for everyone in adopting them, but apparently at a lower level there has this country. I wholeheartedly welcome the Bill, which been some resistance. Out of our three separation units, will implement more stringent, preventive measures, one was mothballed before it began, one lies or was ending the automatic half-way release. Increasing the lying empty, and the third has barely a handful of threshold so that two thirds of a sentence is served, as a residents. I would be very grateful if the Lord Chancellor minimum, provides more justice for victims and helps or other Ministers talked to us about the day-to-day life to protect wider society. I also hugely welcome the fact of separation units. Perhaps MPs should visit them. I that the Lord Chancellor outlined the role that the am visiting one of my prisons next week and I will be Parole Board will further play in such decisions. talking about the culture in prisons,both in my constituency A big part of tackling radicalisation and decreasing and more broadly, because this is probably an issue on the frequency and severity of crimes of this nature must which we do not spend enough time. Clearly, there are be community-led. We need to empower people to report significant problems. If people are coming out of prison suspicious activity, however great or small the suspicions and killing our fellow countrymen, we must prioritise may seem, and for those reports to be received with the this situation and we probably have not been doing so. utmost seriousness and investigated thoroughly.The attack Acheson warned of a fear of litigation driving some on Westminster bridge, in particular, hit close to home. decision-making. We all have to be mindful of the law, The terrorist who stole two bright lives on London but a fear of the human rights lobby should not be a bridge in November was raised in my constituency. I reason for forcing or allowing people out who then go will not name him and hope that his name is forgotten on to kill and maim their fellow countrymen. alongsidehishatred.Thisindividualdeservesnorecognition. The final point, which I think is valid, relates to the I have spoken to faith leaders in my community and safeguarding of vulnerable prisoners—the vulnerable they have unequivocally condemned this individual’s prisoners being the terrorist prisoners. I sort of get that actions. As a former religious education teacher, I know at a certain level. In the hostage and crisis negotiators that such viciousness and violence is born through course, the police teach that the person trying to kill extremism, not through religion. Islam is a peaceful other people or take hostages is in a state of crisis and in religion and the actions of this man in no way reflect on a vulnerable state. Morality aside, that is clearly true. the many millions of loving, law-abiding citizens who However, in practical and moral terms, treating the also worship Islam. 911 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 912 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill We cannot and must not be lenient with those who I have one final point that I feel I have a duty to make, attack the core values of this nation and all that it as a constituent and dear friend of mine, Rachel Wheeler, stands for. One of the victims of the attack in November is a probation officer. I have known her and many of last year was Saskia Jones. She was from Stratford-upon- her colleagues for many years. The probation service Avon, my childhood home. I did not have the pleasure provides a tireless service to the public, but it is not of knowing her but we were raised in the same community. working as it should do, as I think everyone in the The impact of her death and the grief felt by such a House understands.There are issues with staffing shortages small, close-knit community is virtually unimaginable. and various other matters. We need a probation service My deepest condolences go to Jack and Saskia’s loved that is fit for purpose. I could just say: let’s put more ones, and those who were harmed in Streatham. money into it. Money is one thing; let’s get services that The best way to honour the memories of all those work and deliver on the ground, and then we may have who have lost their lives as a result of extremist violence rehabilitation successes. As I said yesterday, the success is two-pronged: first, we must implement protections on of rehabilitative programmes and sentences in our criminal the ground through measures such as this Bill; and, justice system is negligible. Whatever we have been doing secondly, we must focus on institutional protections to does not work. ensure that the time that offenders of this nature spend 4.6 pm in prison is used to rehabilitate and reform in a meaningful way, so that prison sentences stop serving solely as a Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): Streatham delay of the inevitable. is a place that is very close to my heart. I lived there for many years and had the privilege of being the chairman 4.2 pm of Streatham Conservatives and working closely with community groups and the police. I pay tribute to the James Daly (Bury North) (Con): I support the Bill professionalism of the police and the community groups. because from my perspective it is a matter of complete We know that the people of Streatham will be coming common sense. When I was a criminal lawyer and I together at this dark hour to support each other. The stood up and mitigated on behalf of defendants, they incident on Streatham high road was especially tragic would get credit for the guilty plea, for showing remorse because it came so soon after a similar incident at and for various other factors. It is complete anathema London bridge. that if somebody gets a 16-year sentence, they serve That brings us to why we are here. We have been put eight. I have been able to see no evidence to show that here by our electors with an understanding, which is having a prolonged period under the supervision of the both explicit and implicit, that we will keep them safe. probation service makes any substantive difference to We have a duty to keep our constituents safe—I have a rehabilitation. My constituents would expect somebody duty to keep the people of Milton Keynes North safe—and who receives a lengthy custodial sentence to serve that we have the power to act on this matter. It is our duty as time, or as close as possible to that time. If any Member public servants and human beings to act. Let us be quite can give me an argument against that, I would be very clear: those who have been proven to have committed or interested to hear it. to have conspired to commit acts of terrorism are The Bill is sensible, practical, reasonable and enemies of the Crown. As my hon. Friend the Member proportionate and it must come into law now. We here, for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) put it, they are if we have no other duty, must protect members of the traitors, and people expect the full application of the public. This must come into law so that no further law, of justice and of sentences. terrorists are released. How can we as a House possibly continue with the position whereby terrorists are released 4.8 pm automatically 50% of the way through their sentences? Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con): We have It is preposterous. Anybody watching this debate would heard some incredible speeches from right across the House see how preposterous it is, so I warmly welcome the Bill. today, and I am pleased by the cross-party consensus I will make two other,brief points.A lot of Members say, that this is the right thing to do for the security of our with the best of intentions, let us support de-radicalisation country. work. I have not heard one practical suggestion as to Her Majesty,back in 2001, spoke words that still resonate how that is going to work. We use words all the time to today: describe what we want to happen, but putting it into “nothing that can be said can begin to take away the anguish and practice on the ground is totally different. the pain of these moments. Grief is the price we pay for love”. Alicia Kearns: Does my hon. Friend believe that Our nation has grieved on multiple occasions, not least terrorists can never truly be de-radicalised? Having following the horrific attack in Manchester, which was worked in counter-terrorism, I believe that the attributes referenced by my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood that make someone vulnerable to extremism and and Middleton (Chris Clarkson), in which innocent radicalisation never go away; those attributes always children lost their lives through terrorism, and more remain and that person is always vulnerable, in some recently—and more relevant to today’s debate—we grieve way, to some form of extremism or radicalisation, or to as a nation following the London Bridge and Streatham membership of groups that would seek to benefit from terror attacks. Both the offenders had been convicted of those attributes. terror offences and both had been released early. In this place, we have a duty to the innocent victims James Daly: I do not know if I would go that far, but of terrorism. We have a duty to ensure that justice is I would say that the present programmes being used by done through the courts. That is why I welcome the the criminal justice system to tackle radicalisation simply upcoming counter-terrorism Bill, which will help to do not work. I ask the Minister to look at other options ensure that sentences really do reflect the severity of if we are to pursue this. crimes, with a minimum sentence of 14 years—although 913 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 914 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Dehenna Davison] I am grateful to Members in all parts of the House for their contributions to the debate, including the hon. I hope that we will go further still in the case of those Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), who have,to all in intents and purposes,declared themselves who chairs the Justice Committee, and the hon. Member enemies of our very way of life. These are not petty for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill), who, as a former criminals; these are people committing some of the Minister north of the border, brought his own expertise most evil, atrocious offences, and it is right that they should to the debate. I also commend the hon. Member for receive the very harshest of sentences. Crewe and Nantwich (Dr Mullan) for his maiden speech. We also have a duty to ensure that the public are He paid tribute, appropriately, to his predecessor, Laura protected, and that means ensuring that those sentenced Smith—who was certainly a great champion for the for terror offences are not automatically released early constituency during her time here—and mentioned the from prison. It is not right that convicted terrorists experience on which she drew as a primary school should be allowed to roam our streets freely before the teacher. I think that, as a true Welsh valleys man, given end of their sentences. This emergency legislation seeks the choice between the worm-charming championship to address that by ending automatic early release, and I and watching Crew and Nantwich rugby club, I would support it wholeheartedly. go for the rugby club every time, but I do wish the Some Members have expressed concerns about the worm-charmers well in their competition. I also thought swift timetable, but, as the Lord Chancellor rightly that the hon. Gentleman spoke very movingly about the pointed out, there are about 50 terror convicts who, struggle that many people have with identity, and I look under the current rules, would be due for automatic forward to hearing more contributions from him during release before the end of this month. That is unacceptable, the time that he will have in the House in the current which is why it is right for us to support the Government’s Parliament. changes and use our power to keep our streets and Ithankmyrighthon.FriendtheMemberforNormanton, people safe, and why we must act now. Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), who spoke Under the Bill, terrorist offenders will only be eligible with her usual authority, including on the oversight of for early release if they pass a thorough risk assessment deradicalisation programmes, which will be vital in the by the Parole Board. If they are considered still to pose years ahead. I also thank the hon. Members for Stone any threat to public safety, they will rightfully be forced (Sir William Cash) and for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) to serve the remainder of their time in prison. The Parole and the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Board makes its decisions on the basis of a variety of Deepings (Sir John Hayes) for their contributions. My factors, including behaviour displayed in prison. I am hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr pleased to see the Government increasing counter-terrorism (Mr Mahmood) spoke powerfully about the need for resources in prisons, ensuring that frontline staff are trained training and expertise for those who are going into in identifying the behaviour of those who still pose a prisons and providing the deradicalisation programmes. threat to society, and ensuring that those who do still pose I also pay tribute to his extraordinary work in this area. dangers to the public are not able to leave prison early. I was grateful, too, for the contributions from the hon. Members for Eastleigh (Paul Holmes), for St Albans However, our duty does not end at the point of (Daisy Cooper), for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker), for release: we must ensure that sufficient monitoring takes Isle of Wight (Bob Seely), for Stoke-on-Trent North place after release. I am pleased that we are introducing (Jonathan Gullis), for Bury North (James Daly), for measures to strengthen supervision on licence for terrorist Milton Keynes North (Ben Everitt) and for Bishop offenders, which will be bolstered by a doubling of the Auckland(DehennaDavison).Wehavehadagood-natured number of specialist counter-terrorism probation officers. and constructive debate in the Chamber this afternoon. That means that, on release, terrorists could be subjected to measures such as notification requirements, restrictions As I said in my opening remarks, we really need a on travel and communications, and imposed curfews. relentless focus on the treatment of extremism in our All that will help to prevent further offences. jails. I am sure that, in a few minutes’ time, this particular piece of legislation will have its Second Reading in this In this place, public safety is our number one duty, House, but we also need to get the wider issues around but we also have a duty to do all we can to defend the this right. We need sufficient numbers of prison officers memories of the victims, and ensure that terror never who are properly paid and supported to work in a wins. That is why we must pass the Bill today. constructive environment. We need a prison estate that is fit for purpose. We also have to tackle the problem of 4.12 pm increased violence against our prison staff. We cannot Nick Thomas-Symonds: With the leave of the House, continue to tolerate the current level of attacks on Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall wind up the debate, them. Many Members have spoken about the awful having also opened it. atrocities at Fishmongers’ Hall and in Streatham, but if This has been a wide-ranging debate on the most there is any doubt about the issue of prison staff, let us serious of issues. We have a duty, across the House, to not forget that on 9 January this year there was an reduce the risk of incidents such as the one in Streatham attack on prison staff at HMP Whitemoor by two happening again in the future. We can never eliminate inmates with bladed articles. That is a reminder of the that risk, but we must certainly put in place all reasonable extent to which we ask our prison staff to take risks on and proportionate measures to reduce it. We must never a daily basis. sacrifice our values—the very values that this Parliament We need the very best regime to tackle extremism in seeks to protect—in tackling these issues. The European our prisons. The best expertise, appropriate resources convention on human rights and our own country’s and trained staff are all required. We need a programme common law, which has evolved over centuries, form to prevent people from falling into a life of terror and the framework in which we must act. hatred in the first place. It must be as effective as it can 915 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 916 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill be, and the Government need, in speedy fashion, to get Chris Philp: I thank the hon. Lady for raising such a the independent review of the Prevent programme under thoughtful point. That certainly is something we would way with a reviewer in place. We need stable leadership be prepared to study and consider, because we are and a Justice Secretary who remains in place long always keen to learn from other jurisdictions. We will be enough to make a lasting mark on the Department. I bringing forward wider measures as part of a counter- hope this Prime Minister will not be chopping and terrorism Bill in the next few months. One provision we changing his Justice Secretary at every opportunity, so have in mind is greatly extending licence periods following that we can put in place the strategy and long-term release, which is in the spirit of what she suggested, so planning that are absolutely required in the Department I thank her for her constructive proposal. at the moment. Keeping the public safe is the central duty of Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Streatham) (Lab): I have heard Government. We need consistent evidence-based policy Members throughout the debate talking about ending making, and even in a fast changing situation we should automatic release as if it was a new thing, but the never lose sight of the evidence before us. What counts Minister will be aware that the measure already exists in in this sphere has to be what works. I hope that this section 9 of the Counter-Terrorism and Border Security emergency legislation will now reach the statute book in Act 2019. Is he confused, like me, as to why the change a timely fashion to avert the immediate crisis, but it should was not made retrospective then, because that legislation mark a beginning, not an end. This should be the came in direct response to the terror attacks that happened beginning of a wider debate on how we tackle extremism throughout 2017? The Government could have made in our prisons, and of a real commitment of resources the change then, which Labour Members would have from the Government to secure the very best expertise supported, as we did when they set up the Prevent review. available in counter-extremism. That is what we must Chris Philp: Of course, the Government and Parliament see in the months ahead. The public deserve no less. think carefully about retrospection and rightly take a circumspect view. Several changes to sentencing have 4.18 pm been made over the past five or 10 years, including the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice introduction of extended determinate sentences, whereby (Chris Philp): It has been a great privilege to listen to so release at two thirds of the way through a sentence is a many extremely fine speeches this afternoon, but I matter for the Parole Board following an assessment of would particularly like to pay tribute to my hon. Friend dangerousness by the sentencing judge. Sentences for the newly elected Member for Crewe and Nantwich offenders of particular concern were extended a short (Dr Mullan) for his excellent maiden speech. There was time ago to include terrorist offenders who do not have a great deal in it to think about. He touched on issues of an EDS or life sentence, and SOPCs include a Parole identity, as the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Board assessment at the halfway point. A great deal has Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) has just said, but I been done in the past few years in this area, but the two was especially interested to hear about the worm-charming recent cases, including, of course, the one in Streatham competition. I am looking forward to my hon. Friend just a week and a half ago, underline the need to go the Member for Crewe and Nantwich demonstrating even further than before, which is why this Bill is before his worm-charming skills, whatever form they may take, the House today. in the Tea Room later. The number of offenders affected is small. As the However, we are clearly here to consider an extremely Lord Chancellor said in his excellent introduction, only serious matter touching on national security and public 50 offenders are involved, because all the rest are covered safety, prompted by two terrible recent cases: the murders by other sentencing types. Even a small number of committed at Fishmongers’ Hall by Usman Khan on offenders, however, can cause a high level of harm, as 30 November last year, and the attack by Sudesh Amman we have seen, which is why it is important that we go in Streatham on 2 February—a little over a week ago. It further with today’s Bill. The next such offender is due has become clear to the Government that the automatic for release by the end of the month, and that is why we release of some terrorist offenders after serving only are acting so quickly to ensure that legislation is in place half their sentence poses an unacceptable risk to the prior to that release. public, and that is why we are acting with urgency with I thank Members from across the House, including this emergency legislation to end that happening. the Labour spokesman, the hon. Member for Torfaen The circumstances are, of course, exceptional. Many (Nick Thomas-Symonds), and the SNP spokesman, for Members,including the Chairman of the Justice Committee the constructive and supportive tone of their speeches. and the hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill), This is a good example of Parliament working in a a former Justice Secretary in Scotland, have said that cross-party way in the national interest, and I am grateful this is not something that any Government would undertake for the approach they have taken today. lightly, but where we believe we have to act quickly and Some of the questions raised today touch on wider decisively to protect the public, we will do so. issues in this area, one of which is the question of Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and resources, raised by the hon. Member for Torfaen in his Lesmahagow) (SNP): The Minister is making an excellent opening speech. I confirm to the House once again that speech on this important issue. I refer the House to the another £90 million will be spent on counter-terrorism fact that I am a risk assessor with the Risk Management policing next year, bringing the budget to £900 million. Authority in Scotland. Has he considered, or might he That very significant increase in resources was announced consider, the order for lifelong restriction? It is in place just a short time ago. in Scotland for offenders who continue to exhibit a We clearly need to do more on the prison estate. significant risk throughout their lifetime, and offenders Between 2017-18 and 2019-20, the prisons budget has can be recalled at any point. increased from £2.55 billion to £2.9 billion, a 15% increase, 917 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 918 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Chris Philp] a wide body of case law says that changing the early release point does not change the penalty. In fact, early and over the last three years there has been a welcome release ameliorates the penalty—it reduces the penalty—so increase in the number of prison officers serving in our changing the early release point does not add to it. The prison estate from 18,003 to 22,536. Uttley case makes that clear, as do other cases that have Of course, we are also investing in the quality of the come before the UK Supreme Court and the European prison estate. The next financial year, which starts shortly, Court of Human Rights. will see an extra £156 million invested in the prison I do not think the Del Río Prada case, in which the estate’s physical condition, in addition to a £2.5 billion Kingdom of Spain was a respondent, is directly germane programme to build 10,000 additional prison places because it concerns the calculation of concurrent sentences over and above the 3,500 currently under construction and a change in how concurrent sentences are handled, at Glen Parva, Wellingborough and Stocken. which is obviously not the matter before the House today. The Government are clear that the Bill does not Sir Robert Neill: The Minister is making a good contravene article 7 and does not constitute a retrospective speech, and I recognise the various measures the change to the penalty; it simply constitutes a change to Government are taking to invest in the prison estate how the sentence is administered. and in staffing. On the point made by the hon. Member Let me touch briefly on the point raised by my hon. for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill), does the Minister Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), which also recognise the importance of a comprehensive policy I suspect we may debate more fully in Committee to ensure the retention of experienced prison staff, as shortly. We do not believe that a “notwithstanding” well as the recruitment of others, because they have clause is necessary, because we do not believe article 7 is particular skills and knowledge that are valuable in this contravened by this legislation—we can debate this more. field? Weare also not wholly convinced that a “notwithstanding” Chris Philp: The Chair of the Justice Committee clause would derogate our treaty obligations under the makes a good point. It is important to retain experience ECHR. in the prison officer establishment. Prison staff have Sir William Cash rose— long expertise and long experience, and the Prisons Minister, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chris Philp: I am conscious of time. I would be happy South East Cambridgeshire (Lucy Frazer), is acutely aware to give way in Committee to debate this at greater of the importance of retention. length. I very much look forward to hearing my hon. Many hon. and right hon. Members, including the Friend’s further views on this and I would be happy to hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill) and take an intervention in Committee, but I must wrap up the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and in a minute or so. Castleford (Yvette Cooper), have drawn attention to the The right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract importance of a comprehensive deradicalisation programme and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) asked about the MAPPA in prisons—the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry review and the Prevent review. The MAPPA review is Barr (Mr Mahmood) also made that point in his excellent under way and is being led by Jonathan Hall, QC. The speech. We are acutely conscious of the importance of Prevent review has a statutory deadline of August 2020, that and of the need to do more. We have the theological which we intend to abide by. We will make further and ideological intervention programme, the healthy announcements about its progress—this will include identities programme and the deradicalisation programme appointing a new reviewer—as soon as possible. in place, and I am sure there is more that needs to be done in those areas. My hon. Friend the Member for Yvette Cooper: Is it actually doing any work? Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) touched on that in his speech, and I know the Prisons Minister would like shortly to Chris Philp: It is a Home Office matter, but I do not take up his offer of a meeting to discuss exactly these think work has stopped simply because of the issue with issues. the reviewer. Of course, it is equally important to make sure these In conclusion— offenders are properly monitored after release, whether on licence or otherwise.The TPIM regime was strengthened Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. in 2015, and we always have multi-agency public protection The hon. Gentleman has one and a half minutes, so it is arrangements where necessary. As we saw, those alright. arrangements were effective in the case of Sudesh Amman. After he began his behaviour, it was a matter of seconds Chris Philp: Madam Deputy Speaker,you are extremely before the police were able to intervene, which is an kind. I thought I had about 10 seconds left. example of MAPPA working well in practice. I would like to use up my remaining one minute and In the few minutes remaining to me, I will address the 10 seconds, as it is now, by saying that although these question of retrospection, touched on by a number of are emergency measures designed to address a specific hon. Members, including the hon. Member for St Albans problem, we will of course be coming back with a much (Daisy Cooper). It is our very firm belief, based on legal wider and more considered set of proposals in our advice, that these measures do not contravene article 7. counter-terrorism Bill in the next few months and in the They do not constitute a retrospective change of the sentencing White Paper. Many Members have spoken penalty, because the penalty is the total sentence. The of the need to think widely and thoughtfully about penalty is the sentence handed down by the judge at the these issues, and we will of course be doing so. Members point of sentencing and, as my hon. Friend the Member will be pleased to hear that in the counter-terrorism Bill for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill) elaborated, we will be seeking to impose a 14-year minimum sentence, 919 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 920 Early Release) Bill with no prospect of early release, for the most serious Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of Early terrorist offenders.Wewill also be thoughtful and considered Release) Bill about issues of deradicalisation. Of course, more resources are going into the system: 20,000 extra police officers; Considered in Committee (Order, this day) £85 million extra for the Crown Prosecution Service; and more Crown court sitting days in the coming year. [DAME ELEANOR LAING in the Chair] This is an important emergency measure designed for public protection, and I am pleased to see that it commands Clause 1 support across the House. Question put and agreed to. ELIGIBILITY FOR RELEASE ON LICENCE OF TERRORIST Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed PRISONERS:ENGLAND AND WALES to a Committee of the whole House (Order, this day). 4.33 pm Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): I beg to move amendment 3, page 1, line 8, after “force”, insert “and notwithstanding the Human Rights Act 1998” The intention of this Amendment is to ensure that the Bill meets the rule established by Willes J in Phillips v Eyre (1870) LR 6 QB 1 that the courts will ascribe retrospective force to new laws affecting rights if by express words or necessary implication it appears that such was the intention of the legislature. The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing): With this it will be convenient to consider: Amendment 4, in page 1, line 12, after “force”, insert “and notwithstanding the Human Rights Act 1998” The intention of this Amendment is to ensure that the Bill meets the rule established by Willes J in Phillips v Eyre (1870) LR 6 QB 1 that the courts will ascribe retrospective force to new laws affecting rights if by express words or necessary implication it appears that such was the intention of the legislature. Amendment 1, page 2, line 34, leave out “two-thirds” and insert “nine-tenths”. Amendment 2, page 2, line 37, leave out “two-thirds” and insert “nine-tenths”. Clauses 1 and 2 stand part. Amendment 5, in clause 3, page 4, line 2, after “force”, insert “and notwithstanding the Human Rights Act 1998”. The intention of this Amendment is to ensure that the Bill meets the rule established by Willes J in Phillips v Eyre (1870) LR 6 QB 1 that the courts will ascribe retrospective force to new laws affecting rights if by express words or necessary implication it appears that such was the intention of the legislature. Amendment 6, page 4, line 6, after “force”, insert “and notwithstanding the Human Rights Act 1998”. The intention of this Amendment is to ensure that the Bill meets the rule established by Willes J in Phillips v Eyre (1870) LR 6 QB 1 that the courts will ascribe retrospective force to new laws affecting rights if by express words or necessary implication it appears that such was the intention of the legislature. Clause 3 and 4 to 10 stand part. That schedules 1 and 2 be the First and Second schedules to the Bill. New clause 1—Review of prison deradicalisation programme— “(1) The Secretary of State must appoint a person to review the operation of the provisions of the prison deradicalisation programme. (2) The person appointed under subsection (1) may enter any prison premises in order to scrutinise the operation of the prison deradicalisation programme. (3) The person appointed under subsection (1) must make a report to the Secretary of State on the operation of the provisions of the prison deradicalisation programme before the end of the period of 6 months after the date on which this Act is passed. (4) The person appointed must make further reports at intervals of not more than three months to the Secretary of State on the operation of the provisions of the prison deradicalisation programme. 921 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 922 Early Release) Bill (5) The person appointed under subsection (1) may include in murdering for no reason at all, we need to take seriously any review or report under this section consideration of the the question of whether or not we can exclude the courts adequacy of resources made available to the prison deradicalisation —because this is Parliament, not the judiciary—from programme, including resources made available for the supervision making wrong decisions when matters come before them. of probation and rehabilitation work. (6) On receiving a report under this section, the Secretary of I heard with interest the Chairman of the Justice State must make arrangements to lay a copy of it before each Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley House of Parliament as soon as the Secretary of State is satisfied and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), and the various that doing so will not prejudice any criminal proceedings. cases he mentioned, and I have just heard the Minister (7) The Secretary of State may, out of money provided by refer to the Uttley case. There is also the Hogben case, Parliament, pay a person appointed under subsection (1), such which was of course in 1985, before the Human Rights expenses and allowances as the Secretary of State determines.” Act 1998. Reference was also made to the del Río Prada This new clause would require the appointment of an independent case. As a matter of fact, the legislation does not reviewer of the prison deradicalisation programme. depend on an interpretation of those individual cases New clause 3—Review— by way of precedent, and that is not what we should be worried about; we should be thinking about the purpose (1) The Secretary of State must arrange for an independent and scope of the Bill and its objective, which is to do review of the impact of sections 1 to 9 to be carried out in relation to the initial one-year period. everything that we can to ensure that human life and public safety come first. I do not want this to become an (2) The Secretary of State must, after consultation with the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, appoint a person argument about the interpretation of law, which is why with professional experience relating to the imprisonment for I tabled amendment 3 to clause 1. offences of terrorism to conduct the review. Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): On the subject (3) The review must be completed as soon as practicable after the end of the initial one-year period. of opinions, does my hon. Friend intend to test the opinion of the Committee, or merely the opinion of the (4) As soon as practicable after a person has carried out the review in relation to a particular period, the person must— Minister? (a) produce a report of the outcome of the review, and Sir William Cash: That is an extremely good question (b) send a copy of the report to the Secretary of State. on which I have already given an indication. Being a (5) The Secretary of State must lay before each House of realist, I know perfectly well that this is not a Bill to Parliament a copy of the report sent under subsection (4)(b) which an amendment is going to be passed—certainly within one month of receiving the report. not today—but I did say that the House of Lords, (6) The Secretary of State may— which is where the Bill is going, is full of lawyers, some (a) make such payments as the Secretary of State thinks of whom I will disagree with and have disagreed with appropriate in connection with the carrying out of the review, and for as many years as I have been in the House, but there (b) make such other arrangements as the Secretary of State are others who will take a different view. thinks appropriate in connection with the carrying out of the I am interested to hear the views of the House of review (including arrangements for the provision of staff, other Lords on the question of my proposal to amend clause 1. resources and facilities). The wording of clause 1 currently refers to an offence (7) In this section, “initial one-year period” means the period of “within subsection (2)” and a sentence imposed one year beginning with the day when this Act comes into force.” “whether before or after this section comes into force”, at which point I propose to insert the words Sir William Cash: I have already canvassed some parts of what I am about to say, but there is more to say, “and notwithstanding the Human Rights Act 1998”. for a very sound reason. Parliament is full of opinions The effect of that would be to put a complete bar on the and Ministers are full of opinions. Two Ministers are use of the Human Rights Act, by interpretation of the sitting on the Front Bench at the moment, no doubt courts, in any attempt, whether it is regarded as misguided debating the issue before the Committee, but their opinions or is a matter of culture—there is currently a load of are not the law, and nor are those of leading counsel, culture in the courts relating to human rights questions whether senior Treasury counsel or those involved in that have built up over the whole of my lifetime in academic discussion. I say that really seriously. I have the law. been practising the law since 1967 and I know a little I am deeply concerned that we could allow legislation about how the law is interpreted. We saw the Gina to go through that could be interpreted in a way that Miller case the other day. How many times were we told would result in human life being lost and public safety that there was absolutely no question but that the being infringed. That is my concern. [Interruption.] I Government were right in their interpretation? I served see the Minister looking at me either apprehensively or as the shadow Attorney General and saw the whole of with anticipation; I am not sure which it is and I do not the Iraq and Peter Goldsmith exercise. We were told really care. What I am saying is that I want certainty. I over and over again in the House this, that and the other know that if the words “notwithstanding the Human about interpretation—“This is what will happen. This is Rights Act” are brought into the Bill, the effect will be the way it will go.” That is no way to make decisions on to exclude completely, for reasons that I am about to matters of this kind of critical importance. give, any attempt by the courts to modify the effect that There are occasions on which the question of the Bill otherwise would have. interpretation may merely be about a modification of I have other concerns about the Bill that I have policy; this is actually about saving human life. I repeat already made clear. I do not think that offenders should that: saving human life. Where it is possible for the be considered for release after half or two thirds of their House to ensure that human life cannot be unreasonably sentence. I have a lot of sympathy for what my right and wilfully disposed of by people who are intent on hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond 923 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 924 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill Swayne) proposes in amendment 1; he says it should be think that these things will happen again, but as I said nine tenths. I do not know whether he will address that in debate on another counter-terrorism Bill four or five point later. years ago, the question is not whether we have another The bottom line is that we should not allow this Lee Rigby, but when. We have had one after another, at situation if we can avoid it—and we can avoid it, because regular intervals. They are becoming more and more we are the Houses of Parliament, and as a result of imminent, and more and more serious. I doubt whether Brexit, we have just regained an awful lot of our sovereignty. this Bill, however worthy its objectives, will deal with This is more a matter of the European convention on the problem in the manner in which I am setting out humanrightsthanof thecharterof fundamentalrights—or, and which is necessary. for that matter, of Brexit—but the amendment is an indication of the House’s determination to use our 4.45 pm sovereignty to make law that will guarantee that we do There is no doubt that Parliament has the power to not face people losing their life, or public safety being legislate retrospectively. I want to make that entirely undermined. clear. If the words are clear and express, whatever If we do not include in the Bill the words that I judges may wish to interpret is displaced by the wording propose in my amendment 3, I believe—as I said before that Parliament actually utters.My authority for this—there with respect to the Lee Rigby case—that it is not a are plenty of authorities, but I will give the House this matter of if such a thing happens again; it is a matter of one—are the words of Willes J in Phillips v. Eyre. Those when. I concede that this is emergency legislation; that words boil down to this: the courts will only ascribe is why I support it, but it requires a full, thorough retrospective force to new laws affecting rights if by review, perhaps by the Justice Committee, to ensure that “express words or necessary implication it appears that such was we deal with the issue properly and fully. the intention of the legislature”. I applaud the Government for bringing in this Bill on That is supported by page 56 of Bradley and Ewing’s an emergency basis, but I criticise the fact that the Bill “Constitutional and Administrative Law”, which is the does not go far enough. The Minister is, if I might say greatest constitutional authority that we have in this so, not a lawyer; he can only have received his information country and is into its 15th edition. Bradley and Ewing from others who are. He is taking a bit of a punt in are quite clear that if the words are express in particular, saying that the words and/or by necessary implication it appears that such “and notwithstanding the Human Rights Act 1998” was the intention of the legislature, there is no argument. are not needed. He does not know that. I say that with The courts, quite rightly, will interpret that law in the not only respect, but knowledge and certainty. It is very light of those express words. This is why I propose the difficult even for lawyers to be sure what the impact insertion of the words “and notwithstanding the Human would be of allowing the Bill through without excluding Rights Act 1998”. We could add “or the European the Human Rights Act 1998 from it. convention on human rights”, for that matter—to answer the Minister’s point directly. I do not mind. I am not The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice doing this as an exercise in academic analysis; I am (Chris Philp): I thank the hon. Member for giving way, doing it because I do not want people to be killed and I despite my non-lawyer background. I am of course do not want people to be released in circumstances interested in what he says, and have been listening where they might kill people. There is too much at stake. extremely carefully, as he has seen. How does he think For practical purposes, I believe that we need to have his amendment would operate? In particular, does he legislative clarity and the avoidance of doubt in relation think it would in any way disapply our ECHR treaty to the power of Parliament to legislate retrospectively. I obligations? Even if we passed his “notwithstanding” am not interested in the possible interpretation of leading amendment, could applicants not still go directly to the counsel, academics, bloggers, senior Treasury counsel European Court in Strasbourg? We cannot disapply or, for that matter—with the greatest respect, and I that route through this amendment. really mean that—either the Chair of the Justice Committee or the Lord Chancellor himself. In this House we make Sir William Cash: I notice that the Minister is reading decisions about the legislation that we are going to pass. very carefully from the notes with which he has been On the basis of what Willes J said in Phillips v. Eyre—and provided, and I agree with the sentiment behind them, other cases—it is crystal clear that by using words that but I am putting the case in a different way. We are are explicit and express, we can have the effect of talking about serious questions of human life, and ensuring that human life is saved, and that is the main every step should be taken to preserve it. I was originally intention behind my amendment. minded to use the amendment to exclude the European It is not for me to go into all the criticisms of the convention on human rights, too. I describe amendment Human Rights Act 1998 that I have had over the years, 3 as a probing amendment, but I want proper consideration but I can assure the House that an awful lot of distinguished of it, not just someone saying, “I don’t think the wording lawyers, including the Foreign Secretary, have had a lot would achieve the total effect that the hon. Gentleman to say about this matter over the years, including Martin would wish it to.” Howe QC. There is a huge body of legal opinion on The risk to human life is serious; we have to take both sides of the debate, and there are those who are every step to ensure no repetition of the instances of inclined to take the view that the Human Rights Act murder and terrorism that we have witnessed, and which, has a lot of merit in it—and the charter of fundamental in recent times, from Lee Rigby onwards, have become rights, for that matter, which we have now excluded by more and more prevalent. We know that people are virtue of the withdrawal agreement Bill which became prepared to take such steps; it may be that some of the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 them are mentally disturbed. Perhaps people do not only about 10 days ago. 925 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 926 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): I am another layperson manner, one ensures that one achieves one’s objective, —a non-lawyer. Can my hon. Friend see any downside without the uncertainty that can arise in the circumstances to including the set of words that he is suggesting in his that I have described. amendment? Would they limit something that might We need to bear in mind that the Del Rio Prada case otherwise not be limited? I hear very clearly his arguments was a decision by the European Court of Human about its possibly being superfluous and the legislation Rights. The Minister referred to the other cases. In the being subject to interpretation, but is there any downside case of Uttley, there was an appeal on which the House other than it being an additional safeguard that might of Lords concluded that article 7 would be infringed not have been required? only if a sentence was imposed on a defendant that Sir William Cash: Indeed. As usual, my hon. Friend constituted a heavier penalty than that which would is very perceptive. This is really the main purpose of my have been imposed at the time the offence was committed. words on the subject, because there is no downside at all The ECHR then declared that his application was in this context. I can think of circumstances where it inadmissible. The Del Rio Prada case was to do with might be arguable that there could be, because somehow Spanish policy, but there is no doubt that part of the or other one might be infringing some genuine human argument put forward by the Government today has right. However, given that we are dealing with this issue depended on administration, rather than the object of for the sole purpose of preventing people from being the Bill. That is another area that needs to be carefully murdered in the circumstances and in the manner of considered, because the question of administration should these heinous acts, and for the purposes for which not be the basis on which we make these decisions. people indulge in them, there can be no downside in There we are—I have made my case. The Government making this absolutely crystal clear, subject to comments could review the situation when the Bill goes to the that may be made by other lawyers as a result of what I House of Lords, and I will be interested to see how am saying now and, for that matter, what is said in the people develop this argument from now on. House of Lords. I am not pretending that I have all the answers to Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab): I rise to speak every question in matters of this kind, but I do think it to new clause 1, in my name and that of my hon. and is our duty, in the context of what we are seeking to right hon. Friends, but before I do I want to commend prevent, to ensure that we are as crystal clear as we can my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Bell Ribeiro- be in our direction to the courts that they should not Addy), who has had to deal with the awful incident that and must not allow human rights considerations to happened on the high street in Streatham shortly after allow murder to take place. That is the problem and that coming into the House. On her intervention on the is why I am so emphatic about it. I have noted from the Minister on Second Reading, the issue of various sentencing Minister’s remarks and from other conversations I have decisions over the last 10 years was touched on in a new had with senior Ministers that they are perhaps more clause that was not selected, but more broadly I commend interested in questions of interpretation than I am. I do the idea of strategically reviewing the sentencing regime, not want any interpretation in this context. and I hope that the Ministry of Justice will consider that. The sole purpose of this Bill is to deal with people I made clear to the Minister previously that it is not who are going to commit murder. Let us be under no my intention to divide the Committee on new clause 1, misapprehension: this Bill has not been brought forward but scrutiny of the de-radicalisation programme and to deal with some questions relating to the whole generality giving Parliament confidence that the programme is of human rights law; it is specifically emergency legislation being monitored is very important, and I hope he will to deal specifically with preventing people who, for a address that when he responds. variety of reasons or without reasons, intend to perpetrate murder from doing so. Human life is at risk. That is why The new clause specifically requires the appointment this is such a good move on the part of the Government. of an independent reviewer of the prison de-radicalisation There is nothing negative in my approach; it is entirely programme. On Second Reading, the Minister mentioned belt and braces. If the opportunity is to be given to some figures with regard to resources, including £90 million Parliament to make sure that we have both the belt and on counter-terror policing and an uplift in the prison the braces, then for heaven’s sake let us take it and not budget from £2.55 billion to £2.9 billion, but that does leave it to the vagaries and the uncertainties of judicial not tell us specifically how much is being spent on the interpretation. de-radicalisation programme.That is the sort of information I have already referred to the Hogben case. I am not that an independent reviewer would be able to discover going to go through the analysis, because this is not and then put in a format that the House could consider. something that depends on compiling a judgment about We have already discussed Mr Ian Acheson’s review the interpretation of law based on precedents. I do not of Islamist extremism in prisons, probation and youth think that any case we put forward, coming back to justice. One of his recommendations was to have an what my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam independent adviser on counter-terrorism in prisons Afriyie) said, could generate an upside or a downside. I who is accountable to the Secretary of State. My new just want clarity; that is the whole point. The words that clause goes slightly further than that recommendation. I have used adopt the “notwithstanding” formula in It would require the Secretary of State for Justice to section 38 of the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) appoint a person to review the operation of the prison Act 2020, relating to the sovereignty of Parliament. I de-radicalisation programme, with the power to enter argued this in No. 10, and the Prime Minister, to his prison premises both to gather evidence and provide enormous credit, completely backed me. I said, “You scrutiny. There would be a statutory requirement for a have to include the words ‘notwithstanding the European report to be laid before Parliament every three months Communities Act 1972’.” By doing this in a certain on the programme. That could be regarded as too often, 927 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 928 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill but the general point stands—this House would be in a I was in the House at the time, and it was made position to properly judge the effectiveness of rehabilitation absolutely clear that this Act would not in itself impinge work in our prisons. on the sovereignty of Parliament. That was made clear, Subsection (5) of the new clause gives the independent and therefore as far as I am concerned—I understand reviewer the power to look into the resources available where he is coming from, but I am afraid that his point totheprogramme,includingforprobationandrehabilitation is erroneous—it is implicit in the passing of the 1998 work. That proposal of an independent reviewer would Act that we are able, if we wish to do so, to take the give the opportunity for proper scrutiny of this very legislation that we pass in this House as the final word, important programme. The Minister will be aware of and the courts are obliged to obey that. the healthyidentity intervention and other such programmes With respect to the European convention on human that currently exist. Through new clause 1, we seek to rights, I would simply make the point that I made just build on that and give real confidence in the Government’s now, which is that I could have included such words—yet work in the rehabilitation and de-radicalisation space. I again, that is another part of my probing amendment—and am not absolutely clear of the extent to which those they could have been “notwithstanding the charter of who have perpetrated these awful atrocities in recent fundamental rights” as a matter of fact, but that would months took part in de-radicalisation programmes, but have been destroyed by the existence at that time of the I hope that will be considered and that the Minister will European Communities Act 1972, which was binding learn the lessons from that. It is vital that we use the on us by Act of Parliament. time in prison of whatever length—I had a debate about that earlier with the right hon. Member for New Nick Thomas-Symonds: With the greatest of respect Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne)—in a constructive to the hon. Gentleman, it is not an erroneous point. I way to protect the public. taught the Human Rights Act for the best part of 11 or 12 years, but I will resist the temptation to give his 5 pm contribution a grade. Yes, the Human Rights Act contains the power to make a declaration of incompatibility, The broader point is such an important one. I have thus preserving the concept of parliamentary sovereignty throughout the debate indicated that, while of course —it is absolutely right that Parliament does not have a there is support for the principles behind the Bill, including strike-down power as, for example, the US Supreme the principle of Parole Board involvement, there must Court does—but I have two fundamental problems in addition be a focus on resources and on strategy in with his amendment. The first problem is the one I have relation to de-radicalisation. The proposal I have put set out: this House passing legislation that essentially forward of an independent reviewer is one way of tells the courts, “Well, you can move aside: this is absolutely producing that, but I accept that there are others, and I what we say”, without any scrutiny. look forward to hearing the remarks of the Minister. Sir William Cash indicated assent. Sir William Cash: Before the shadow Minister sits down, may I ask him a question? I am engaged in a Nick Thomas-Symonds: I know the hon. Gentleman nods probing exercise—I am not going to push amendment 3 his head, but I am not comfortable with that position. to a vote—and I would like to know what the Opposition think about excluding the Human Rights Act 1998 and The second point is that I firmly believe we can tackle what reason he would give for saying that it was unnecessary. this issue of terrorism and remain signatories to the European convention on human rights. That is essentially Nick Thomas-Symonds: I am delighted to have a the Government’s position here today, and I really do chance to respond. I will do so in a moment, but the not think that we need to get into this debate because first thing I would say is that I remember the criticism of the Government have clearly stated that the Act—or the me and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member Bill, as it currently is—is compliant with article 7. If for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) in the last people wish to challenge that in the courts, that is a Parliament when we were seeking disclosure of legal matter for them, but the Government must be confident advice—not from the hon. Gentleman, but perhaps in their legal position. from others. It strikes me that Members are now discussing Under the Human Rights Act, each Bill that comes case law across the Floor of the House and Ministers before the House contains a sentence on its front page are referring to legal advice, which perhaps shows that to show that Ministers have considered whether it is there is a change. compatible with that Act. If they had wished, the I do not support the hon. Gentleman’s amendment. Government could have stated in the Bill that they did First, the point made by the Minister is correct, and not think it compatible with the Human Rights Act, but even if we put this into the legislation, the right to go to they wanted us to proceed regardless. They did not do Strasbourg would still exist. The second reason why I that, however, and they clearly state on the Bill their am uncomfortable with what the hon. Gentleman is belief that it is compatible with the Act. We have heard saying—I am quite happy to give way to him again if I a case law of history from the hon. Member for Stone am wrong in my interpretation—is that he, as I understand (Sir William Cash), and others, but that is the Government’s it, wants the House to pass legislation and then somehow position, and for those reasons I cannot support the prevent courts from being able to adjudicate on it, amendment. I understand that he will not push it to a which surely is not what is meant by having a sovereign vote, and the debate will continue in the other place, but Parliament that is accountable to judges. this is not an amendment that would have found favour on the Labour Benches. Sir William Cash: I can respond to that very simply Let me return to new clause 1. I will not push the idea by referring the hon. Gentleman to the speeches made of an independent reviewer to the vote—I will not on the introduction of the Human Rights Act 1998. frustrate the passage of the Bill in that way. However, it 929 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 930 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Nick Thomas-Symonds] Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD): I am not seeking to press new clause 3, but I am seeking reassurances from would assist the Committee if the Minister set out how the Minister relating to the purpose behind it and a Members will be able to scrutinise the programme of commitment to post-legislative scrutiny. de-radicalisation over the next few years, and how we In my earlier remarks, I made the point that fast law can have the information before us—whether from the can be bad law. In the absence of an opportunity for Ministry of Justice directly or in another way—to assess thorough pre-legislative scrutiny, we absolutely must how it is working. have post-legislative scrutiny.There are relevant examples The former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member of where this has happened: the Immigration Act 2014 for Maidenhead (Mrs May), intervened on the Justice was controversial, so it contained the same requirement Secretary during his opening speech, and said that she as exists in new clause 3; and the Data Retention and felt there had been a lack of success in the de-radicalisation Investigatory Powers Act 2014, which was rushed in in programmes. She is right, and we need to see some response to a court ruling, included a sunset clause of success in the years ahead. I will not push new clause 1 18 months. I am not asking for a sunset clause, but new to the vote, but I hope the Minister will provide some clause 3 sets out clearly that we would like the opportunity assurances about how such scrutiny could take place. for a statutory review after one year.The person conducting that review should be appointed after consultation with Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): I do the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation and not intend to detain the Committee long, Dame Eleanor, they should have professional experience relating to and the Minister should consider this not so much a imprisonment for offences of terrorism. probing amendment as a prodding amendment—it is New clause 3 does not seek to outline the scope of my intention to prod the Minister. such a statutory review, but I would like to give the The purpose of my amendments is stunningly obvious. Committee some examples of the kind of matters that At lines 34 and 37 I wish to remove “two-thirds”, and could be covered by it. Such a statutory review could insert the words “nine-tenths”. In reality, many sentences, ask whether the extra time the terrorists spend in prison even for acts of terrorism such as the possession of is being used to de-radicalise them. Are they actually terrorist promotional material with intent, give rise to a receiving an effective de-radicalisation programme or, surprisingly short sentence, such as four years. In such a on the contrary, are they potentially becoming more case, the difference between half the sentence, as currently dangerous? It could look at whether the Parole Board served, and two-thirds, is a mere six months. Admittedly, has the resources to cope with the extra demands put on extending that to nine-tenths of the sentence does not it. It could look at whether terrorist prisoners are being address the nature of the problem—that is why this is a failed by the Parole Board and whether they are being prodding amendment—but the fact is that sentences are released at the end of their sentence without any supervision too short. on licence. It could look at whether the probation service There is a general problem of honesty in sentencing. has the staff and resources it needs to ensure effective When a judge hands down a sentence in court, all those supervision during the shorter period that offenders in the know work out on the back of a fag packet what spend on licence. It could also perhaps look at whether it means in terms of imprisonment, but the public, who the change in the release point affects the sentencing are generally not in the know, do not understand that decisions made by judges. the sentence is not that at all. They would be scandalised As I said earlier, there is a risk that because of the if they knew. lack of opportunity for pre-legislative scrutiny there is the possibility that this becomes a law of unintended Sir William Cash: Does my right hon. Friend remember consequences. I know there are proposals for legislation a recent case of two treasure hunters who I think got as down the line, but we also know that legislation can get much as 10 years because they had not declared a delayed. It would be absolutely right for the House to treasure trove? Compare that with somebody who is insist on post-legislative scrutiny by virtue of a one-year intent on murdering people on the streets of London, statutory review. Who knows, the review might even or anywhere else. identify things that could be included in future legislation.

Sir Desmond Swayne: That is the random caprice of Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) the judiciary! Returning to the issue before us, on the (Con): I speak in sympathy with all the amendments for specific point of sentencing for terrorist acts, we must the reasons I shall give. In respect of the amendment be clear in our minds about what intention lies behind tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William our whole sentencing policy.I believe that fundamentally Cash), it is important that we anticipate the likely it must be to secure the reformation of the offender counters to this proposed legislation that will perhaps before he is released. The problem is that existing strategies come from malign forces in the other place and outside for reforming offenders, and de-programming them from it. There are people who will seek to frustrate the their ideology, are somewhat untested. Those that are Government in their attempt to the right thing. tested—such as the programme run in Saudi Arabia, which has been shown to be effective—take a relatively Daisy Cooper: I note that the right hon. Gentleman long time. I suggest, therefore, that that lends itself to says there are malign forces. I ask him to recognise that an indeterminate sentence to detainment at Her Majesty’s there are those of us who hold public and national pleasure until a licensing authority, the Parole Board, security front and centre in our roles in the House, and has decided that the offender is safe to be released. That that some people may be looking not to frustrate but is the purpose of my amendment: merely to contribute improve the Bill by ensuring it complies with human to that debate. rights law. 931 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 932 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill Sir John Hayes: We do not have time, and you would Sir John Hayes: I would not have wanted to suggest not permit us, Dame Eleanor, to have a broader debate anything other than that. The hon. Gentleman was very about the character of rights and human rights law, but clear that he had heard what the Government said I welcome the opportunity to do so with the hon. Lady about having taken that advice and their confidence at a place and time of her choosing. I have profound that a legal challenge would not succeed on that basis. doubts about that law and the root of it, which is, My hon. Friend the Member for Stone may be more essentially, the acceptance of natural rights that I do sceptical than others about that, but it is important to not believe in. I believe in the lawful entitlements that point out that the Government have made it clear that we call rights, of course. How they should be dealt with further legislation on counter-terrorism will be forthcoming. legally is an entirely different matter and not one pertinent That legislation might in itself, on a primary basis, to these considerations, but I look forward happily to revisit the issue of how counter-terrorism measures that broader debate. Given that there will be challenges interface with and may be contradicted by existing to the Government, malign and otherwise, given what legislation. That would be a very fundamental debate, she said, it seems that there is a good case for a belt-and- because of course it will oblige the consideration of braces approach, as my hon. Friend the Member for exactly the kinds of points that he made. On that basis, Stone described it. I am happy to go with the Minister. Notwithstanding my temptation to follow the example of my esteemed hon. Friend the Member for Stone, I am happy, like the 5.15 pm shadow Minister, to err on the side of the Government Sir William Cash: In the context of what is developing and to say that if they have taken legal advice, with the into a very interesting speech, I refer to Edmund Burke’s further opportunity to revisit these matters in the primary famous attack on Thomas Paine in respect of what he legislation that we hear will be speeding its way to the really thought about human rights. It was a brilliantly House, I am prepared to concede the argument about expressed metaphor—that we would not be “trussed” rights. like chickens, or something of that kind, by the human rights proposals of Thomas Paine. Sir William Cash: Will my right hon. Friend give way? Sir John Hayes: My hon. Friend is going to try to Sir John Hayes: Now I might really test your patience, persuade me not to. Dame Eleanor, because my hon. Friend invites me to articulate a Burkean case against natural rights, which I Sir William Cash: My right hon. Friend will accept will be happy to do, but perhaps on another occasion. that this is primary legislation and furthermore that I Given that I offered the hon. Member for St Albans have already said I am looking forward to a proper (Daisy Cooper) the opportunity to have a debate about discussion about this in the future, with a view to this, that might be the very occasion. Perhaps my hon. getting it right, because the object of the Bill is to Friend will agree to be my seconder in such a debate—what prevent people from being killed on the streets of this a humbling experience that would be for me and an country. elevating one for him. I hope we will do that on another occasion and we can indeed explore why so many Sir John Hayes: I am talking about the murderous people take for granted the existence of natural rights, intent of people I described earlier as wicked. I use that as though they spring from the ether. As a Christian, of word advisedly: not all these people are mentally disturbed. course I could not possibly take that view, but now is Some may be, and we know from evidence that some not the time to get into that discussion. are, but not all. Crime is not an illness to be treated; it is On the specifics of the amendment, my hon. Friend a malevolent choice, an act of wickedness, and wickedness makesabelt-and-bracescase,asIsaid,foranotwithstanding is entirely different from mental illness. I know it is clause. The shadow Minister made the point that that difficult for some to grasp that, but it is important to was fundamentally disagreeable and made a constitutional emphasise it. argument against the notwithstanding clause per se. Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and However, he also went on to say that he believed the Lesmahagow) (SNP): The right hon. Gentleman is making Government were right, or were likely to be right, in a very good point. Of course, if an individual were asserting that they were clear that, in any case, this mentally disordered, the pathway for their rehabilitation legislation did not contradict any existing rights legislation. and punishment would be through a secure hospital, We heard that today from the Secretary of State and rather than prison, which would deal with that matter. again subsequently in the debate: the Government do not feel that the proposed legislation is likely to be Sir John Hayes: There are well-established ways of successfully challenged, as my hon. Friend suggested it differentiating people in those terms, different ways of might. We have to assume that the Government have dealing with them in law, different ways of dealing with taken legal advice to make that claim. them once convicted, and different ways of dealing with them in the community.The psychologists and psychiatrists Nick Thomas-Symonds: I should make one thing associated with the probation service and the Prison clear: obviously, I have not seen the legal advice the Service are well-accustomed to that differentiation, but Government are relying on, which I am sure they have in the public debate we need to be bold and brave sought, quite appropriately. I merely point out that that enough to say that there are some very wicked people is the Government’s view and that is what the Secretary who want to do wicked things, and it is our job not only of State has put in the Bill. On that basis, article 7 was to deal with those things by anticipating, deterring and not engaged—I want to make that point clear to the punishing them, but to reinforce public faith in the rule right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings of law by saying so. This is an opportunity to do so as (Sir John Hayes). the Bill gives that life. 933 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 934 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Sir John Hayes] role exists, but I do not want to underestimate the significance or value of the Committees of this House The second amendment is the one proposed by the in doing their job. The ISC in particular is a well-respected shadow Minister. Again, I have great sympathy with it. Committee of the House, which has a very strong track All legislation relating to such matters benefits from pre record of looking at these matters empirically and and post-legislative scrutiny, both because we need to advising accordingly. My argument is not that we should get it right, for the obvious reasons we have debated—its not have that kind of scrutiny; ideally, it would have salience, its significance, its importance—and because, been a precursor to this legislation, but we should in order to build the consensus necessary across the indeed consider allowing it through the mechanisms House to proceed in a way that maintains public faith, that I have described. I invite the Minister to embrace pre and post-legislative scrutiny is important. As recognised the spirit in which I have advanced my argument. by all the contributors to this debate, the emergency we The third and final amendment that we have heard face is such that that has not been possible on this ably articulated during our considerations this afternoon occasion. I would resist the shadow Minister’samendment, is the one in the name of my right hon. Friend the not because I do not believe in the principle or the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne). sentiments behind it but because there is a very good Again, I am extremely sympathetic to the purpose of case for the Select Committees—notably the Home the amendment. Indeed, I might even go further, and Affairs Select Committee and the Intelligence and Security say that “nine-tenths” is too modest. However, while my Committee—to look at this matter once the Bill has right hon. Friend’s amendment is welcome and adds become an Act. I would be surprised if they did not. I pressure, if I might put it that way—he said “prodding” know the Minister in his winding-up speech will—I will rather than “probing”, and I have added a third “p”, not say “invite that kind of scrutiny”, as I am not sure it “pressure”, because I know that alliteration is dear to is appropriate for a Minister to ask a Select Committee his heart—given that the Government have made crystal to investigate or scrutinise the Government—want to clear that in forthcoming legislation they will look at say that he would be surprised if they did not. That kind three matters, minimum sentences, maximum sentences of reassurance would give great comfort to the House in and mandatory sentences, much of what he desires measuring the effect of this important legislation. should form part of that further Government policy and practice. I hope that we can increase minimum Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): We are having a very sentences, that we can increase maximum sentences, interesting and mature debate about getting this right, and that we can tie to that—as the Government have and of course it is paramount that we make sure the said they will, as I note from comments made in the public are safe, but I do not understand what speaks statement by the Secretary of State following the recent against a review to make sure we get it right. Even if terrorist outrage— other legislation comes further down the line, why not have that double security? Sir Greg Knight: Will my right hon. Friend give way? Sir John Hayes: We have well-established mechanisms, Sir John Hayes: I will just finish my sentence, and then of the kind I have just described, for doing exactly that. I will give way happily to my right hon. and distinguished Sometimes the Government build a review mechanism Friend. into legislation, but much more often the Committees The Government have said, and the Secretary of of this House designed for that purpose consider the State was clear about it in the statement a few days ago, effectiveness of what the Government do and how that tied to those three provisions will be the end of legislation is working. Our Select Committee structure early release for certain kinds of prisoner. I now happily is now long established in the House—even longer give way to my right hon. Friend before I move to my established than my hon. Friend the Member for Stone— exciting peroration. and fulfils that function well. Particularly in respect of legislation relating to terrorism, the Intelligence and Sir Greg Knight: I am grateful to my right hon. Security Committee has, time and again, played an Friend. Does he not think that whatever scheme is important role in considering these matters, reflecting, ultimately settled upon, there needs to remain some reporting, and influencing Government policy, as I incentive for someone who is in prison to behave him or know from my time in the Home Office. So I think that herself? there is well-established practice. If it ain’t broke, why fix it? Sir John Hayes: I note that my right hon. Friend was preoccupied with urgent meetings when I spoke earlier, Daisy Cooper: The issue is not just that there should but if he reads the Hansard report of my earlier be a review, but who should conduct that review. The contribution, he will see that I am on exactly the same right hon. Gentleman has talked about various Select page as him, not for the first time. He is absolutely right Committees, which, as we know, have a very broad that parole has historically always been considered on workload. Does he agree that it is important to ensure the basis of an assessment of both risk and worthiness. that there is an independent review, conducted on our “Good behaviour” is the term that was once routinely behalf by someone who is independent of the House used in respect of parole. When people have proved, and has experience in relation to the sentencing of through how they behave in prison, that they no longer terrorists? pose a risk to the public and that they deserve to be released early, they should be. The problem with the Sir John Hayes: We do, in fact, have an independent current arrangement is the automatic nature of early reviewer of terrorism legislation. In that context, I was release, and I resist that per se, not just in respect of privileged to work with Lord Carlile—a former Liberal terrorist prisoners but more widely. The public would Democrat Member of this House, by the way. So that be outraged if they knew just how many people have 935 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 936 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill been released early,including terrorists. Enough is enough; Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): I am grateful to the now the time to put an end to that. This is the beginning Minister for those indications about sentencing. Does of it, and I happily support this legislation. he agree that the review needs to consider all terrorist offences, including relatively minor ones—such as offences MrDeputySpeaker(MrNigelEvans):IcallNickThomas- under sections 57 and 58 of the Terrorism Act 2000 Symonds. relating to possession of materials—that might in and of themselves not attract a particularly long sentence? Nick Thomas-Symonds: I am grateful, Mr Deputy Given that they are responsible for almost half of all Speaker, but I have already spoken in favour of my terrorist sentences handed out, does he agree that they amendment. I have said that I do not wish to press it to need to be considered as part of the review? a Division, but I would like to hear the Minister’s response to my suggestion about external scrutiny of the deradicalisation programme in our prisons. Chris Philp: We will consider all terrorist offenders as part of the review. Of course, the sentencing provisions 5.30 pm I just described would not be appropriate for all terror offenders—just the most serious—but I assure my hon. Chris Philp: I would like to respond briefly to some of Friend that we will be considering the totality of terror the points made in Committee, as well as speaking in offending.Of course,theStreathamoffenderhadcommitted support of clauses 1 to 10 and schedules 1 and 2 standing one of the offences that my hon. Friend just described— part of the Bill. Perhaps I could start with the speech by possession of terrorist material—so we must be mindful my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William that even when someone commits an offence that, on Cash) concerning his proposed “notwithstanding” the face of it, is at the less serious end of the offending amendment. I repeat the point I made earlier, which the spectrum, they can none the less go on to do quite shadow Minister also made, that the Government have serious things. The Government are extremely mindful received categorical advice that these proposals are of that. article 7 compliant. Of course there may well be challenges, and I cannot guarantee what the outcome of any litigation Sir John Hayes: There are two points to be made in might be, but we are confident that the proposals are respect of what the Minister has just said. First, the vast compliant. majority of people convicted under terrorism legislation My hon. Friend said that nothing less than certainty are sentenced to between one and 20 years. Now, he is would do in cases of public safety,and I entirely understand talking about “the most serious”. What does he mean that sentiment. Perhaps this would best be debated at by “the most serious”? Secondly, a large number of another time, but I wonder whether his amendment as people are convicted for terrorism-related offences under written would have the effect that he intends, because I non-terrorism legislation—hundreds, actually, over the do not think that simply writing a “notwithstanding” years. Will they be included in these considerations? clause into a piece of primary legislation would abrogate our obligations under a treaty that we have entered into Chris Philp: I thank my right hon. Friend for his or preclude an applicant or litigant going directly to the question. In relation to the second part of it, terrorist-related European Court of Human Rights—they might go offences do form part of this Bill. Part 2 of proposed straight to Strasbourg—even if we could somehow prevent new schedule 19ZA to the Criminal Justice Act 2003, the use of the English and Welsh courts. I do not think which is found in schedule 1 to this Bill, covers terrorist- the amendment as drafted would actually have the legal related offences under the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 effect intended. However, my hon. Friend has, as always, and lists the various direct offences,including manslaughter, raised some interesting constitutional questions, and I culpable homicide and kidnapping, that are terrorist-related am sure they will be debated in the other place in due offences. Such offences are, therefore, in the scope of course. In our manifesto, we said that we would have a this Bill, and we will carefully consider the implications think about the operation of the Human Rights Act for the counter-terrorism Bill that we will bring forward 1998 and some of the issues that he referred to in his in due course. speech. There will be plenty of opportunities in due course to consider at greater length the issues that he Turning to the level of the severity of offending, as I raised. I am grateful for his undertaking not to press his said to my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham amendment to a vote today, but the whole House has (Alex Chalk), we will review all types of offending, so certainly heard what he had to say and will carefully the whole spectrum will be in scope. As for how we reflect on it. define that “most serious” cohort, the Government are My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest currently thinking quite carefully about the definition. I West (Sir Desmond Swayne) gave me, in his words, a do not want to give my right hon. Friend the Member prod. Let me confirm that I am duly prodded on the for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes) questions of longer sentences for serious terrorist offenders a definition today, because that will be a matter for the and of their serving more of their sentence in prison. As counter-terrorism Bill, but we are thinking about question a number of Members have said, is our intention to extremely carefully, and the House will be able to debate bring forward a counter-terrorism, sentencing and release it fully in due course. Bill in the relatively near future. It is also the Government’s The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Torfaen intention to define a cohort of the most serious terrorist (Nick Thomas-Symonds), asked about a review of the offenders and to seek a minimum sentence of 14 years effectiveness of the deradicalisation agenda. I agree that for those serious offenders and ensure that all of the the review is critical, and several Members raised it on sentence handed down by the judge is served in prison. I Second Reading. Weare setting up a new counter-terrorism think that that will respond to the point that my right programmes and interventions centre within the prisons hon. Friend was making. and probation service that will look specifically at the 937 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 938 Early Release) Bill Early Release) Bill [Chris Philp] Clause 2 disapplies some historical transitional provisions dating back to the Criminal Justice Act 2003. Those are de-radicalisation problem. We intend to publish further essentially technical amendments to make sure this research and reports in the usual way, and I expect full legislation works in a way that is consistent with the Act. scrutiny from Members. As my right hon. Friend the Clauses 3 and 4 apply these provisions to Scotland. Member for South Holland and The Deepings said in We are keen to make sure that the public in Scotland are his speech, we will fully embrace scrutiny of that description, protected as much as the public in England and Wales. and I would be surprised—my hon. Friend the Member In that context, I am grateful to the hon. Member for for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill) is not in East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill) for his supportive his place—if the Justice Committee did not look at this remarks. I hope I can infer from his remarks that our area in due course. I accept the point made by my right colleagues in the Scottish Government in Holyrood are hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The supportive of the proposals. Deepings that proper and deep scrutiny of this area is needed, because the de-radicalisation question is so Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP) indicated assent. important. Chris Philp: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s Dr Cameron: The Minister is making some good confirmation that the Scottish Government support points. Is there any scope to look at additional types of these provisions. charges that could be laid against those who actively Clause 5 relates to the setting of licence conditions. radicalise others in prison? Clause 6 makes further consequential amendments relating to transitional cases. Clause 7 makes further consequential Chris Philp: I thank the hon. Lady for her important amendments that apply to England and Wales. Clause 8 intervention. The radicalisation of one prisoner by another makes transitional provisions in relation to offenders in is a deeply invidious phenomenon, and she is right to Scotland and, again, clause 9 makes further consequential highlight it. The normal offences that would apply to amendments that apply to Scotland. any member of the public, including things like incitement Finally, clause 10 specifies the Bill’s territorial extent to racial hatred, would apply to prisoners just as and commencement. It is worth saying that commencement much. I encourage the authorities to use those laws will be upon Royal Assent, and we therefore hope the where applicable regardless of whether the person doing Bill takes effect from 27 February, which is important the inciting, which is a criminal offence in itself, is in from the perspective of the release of certain dangerous prison. offenders. The hon. Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper), in I hope that covers the clauses and schedules, and that the same vein as the hon. Member for Torfaen, talked they will stand part of the Bill. about the need to scrutinise the effect of this legislation after it has passed. Once again, I accept the thrust of Sir William Cash: As I have already made clear, I am what she says. It is important that we keep the effect of happy to ask leave to withdraw the amendment with the legislation under review, particularly where it is passed restrictions and conditions that I have already imposed in such a necessarily expeditious fashion. I would expect with regard to the House of Lords. the Justice Committee to take an interest in this, and the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. House will have a chance to take a great interest when Clauses 1 to 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill. we come to debate the counter-terrorism Bill in a few Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to. months’ time. There will then be a lot more time available The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. for us to debate these matters and, indeed, to review the operation of this Bill, which by then will have been in Bill reported, without amendment. effect for a few months. Third Reading In terms of an independent review that goes beyond Parliament’s Committees and, indeed, this House—as 5.45 pm my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice and The Deepings said in reply to an intervention by (Robert Buckland): I beg to move, That the Bill be now the hon. Member for St Albans—I expect that Jonathan read the Third time. Hall, QC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, May I thank all Members for taking part in this will be conducting independent reviews of exactly the important debate, on a Bill that, as Members on both kind the hon. Member for St Albans described. sides of the House have demonstrated comprehensively, I think that covers many of the points raised on the was timely and necessary? We have a proud history of various amendments and new clauses. On the substance coming together in times of adversity against people of the Bill, it is worth briefly highlighting that clause 1 who seek to divide us. Together, we can make sure that specifies the release provisions we have been talking the terrorists who seek to threaten our way of life will about and the two thirds release point for prisoners in never win. England and Wales, at which point the Parole Board’s I readily acknowledge that we are passing this Bill to discretion will be applied. a very tight timescale, but the appalling attacks we Clause 1 also references schedule 1, which specifies witnessed at Streatham and at Fishmongers’ Hall made the kinds of offences that are in scope. Part 1 of proposed it plain that the time for action was now, which is why I new schedule 19ZA to the Criminal Justice Act 2003 welcome the sense of urgency that has been shared in all defines the terrorist offences that are in scope, and parts of the House. That has necessarily shortened the part 2 defines the offences that may be determined to time available to debate these issues, but I will of course have a terrorist connection. continue to engage with Members across the House on 939 Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of 12 FEBRUARY 2020 940 Early Release) Bill these matters. There will be further opportunities to of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Croydon South legislate on these issues, both in our forthcoming counter- (Chris Philp), and all those right hon. and hon. Members terrorism, sentencing and release Bill and, more broadly, who have contributed to the debate today. in the sentencing Bill that we will introduce following I should also put on record in Hansard my thanks to our sentencing White Paper later this year. Robert Keenan in my office: he has had very quickly to We will also review the current maximum penalties turn around work on the Bill on a very short-term basis and sentencing framework for terrorist offences to ensure since it was first published. that they are sufficient and comprehensive. Our underlying On that basis, I hope that the Bill will pass its Third principle is this: terrorist offenders should no longer be Reading without a Division. released before the end of their custodial sentence unless the Parole Board is satisfied that they are no longer a 5.49 pm risk to the public. Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP): I echo the I take this opportunity to thank all the officials, not comments of both the Opposition spokesman and the only those who have assisted us in the Box today, but all Lord Chancellor. We have put on record the requirement the team at the Ministry of Justice, who have worked at for unity on this issue. I thank the Lord Chancellor and pace and in great detail on complex issues of national his staff for the manner in which they introduced the importance, to a timescale that is perhaps unusual and Bill. Legislation is never easy,and this Bill was particularly almost unprecedented. We do owe them a deep debt of difficult with regard to the retrospectivity, but as much gratitude, and I am honoured to place that formally on information as could be provided was provided. As the record. others have done correctly, I put on record our tribute For now, passing this Bill will take a significant step not only to those in the Government offices who have to ensuring that the British public, whom we serve, are drafted the legislation, but to those involved here at being given the protection they need, by ensuring that Parliament, because they must have been working long terrorist offenders spend longer in prison in all cases into the night to make sure that information was provided and are not automatically released without being fully for Members. and properly assessed. With those tributes appropriately made, I simply concur with the thanks to all involved. 5.47 pm Question put and agreed to. Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. Nick Thomas-Symonds: I agree with the Secretary of State that we have had a constructive debate in the Chamber on this Bill. As I indicated at the outset, the Business without Debate Opposition support the idea of Parole Board involvement and, indeed, risk assessment for terrorist prisoners across BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (24 FEBRUARY) the board. Ordered, Clearly, we will need to address an issue of investment That at the sitting on Monday 24 February, notwithstanding in deradicalisation programmes and proper mechanisms the provisions of Standing Order No. 16 (Proceedings under an to be able to assess how effective they are. We will be Act or on European Union documents), the Speaker shall put the holding the Government to account on those issues in Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on— the months and years ahead. There is also a wider issue (a) the Motion in the name of Secretary Priti Patel relating to to address on sentencing. As I indicated in my earlier Police Grant Report not later than three hours after the remarks, this of course became an emergency because commencement of proceedings on that Motion, and of the incidents we have seen in recent months, but (b) the Motions in the name of Secretary Robert Jenrick there does need to be greater long-term planning, which relating to Local Government Finance not later than three hours I hope the Secretary of State will be able to provide to after the commencement of proceedings on the first such Motion the Department in the years ahead. or six hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion relating to Police Grant Report, whichever is the later; I also echo what the Secretary of State said about the proceedings on those Motions may continue, though opposed, officials, who obviously had to produce this Bill very after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A quickly. I would like to thank him for his work with me (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Leo Docherty.) on this over the past week. I also thank the Under-Secretary 941 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Marine Licensing 942

Marine Licensing course, the finest mussels in the country. However, naturally, the deployment of mussel farms, which can That this House Motion made, and Question proposed, cover vast areas of the sea, can hinder more traditional do now adjourn.— (Leo Docherty.) fishing activities from taking place in that area. So, when a large mussel farm situated in St Austell bay, in 5.50 pm an important area for the Mevagissey inshore fishing Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): I am fleet, appeared—from their point of view—out of the delighted to bring to the House this debate to consider blue, members of the local fishing community were the process for the consultation on marine licensing understandably vexed. The Mevagissey Fishermen’s applications carried out by the Marine Management Association contacted the MMO and asked what had Organisation on behalf of the Department for gone on. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. The process has It turned out that no individual or organisation in come to my attention in recent years because the way in Mevagissey had been consulted by the MMO when which it works has led to widespread dismay among my considering the application for a new mussel farm—not local fishing communities. They have been left out of the Mevagissey parish council, the harbour trustees or the consultation process when it comes to considering Mevagissey fishermen, either through their association important decisions that impact on their livelihoods. or individually. Yet fishermen are constantly receiving The Cornish fishing industry has recently been information from the MMO, so their contact details highlighted on a national scale, not only in the British would have been readily available, and consulting them Academy of Film and Television Arts award-winning would not have required a massive time or resource short film “Bait”, much of which was filmed in St Austell commitment. bay and which stars local Cornishman Ed Rowe, but in It turns out that the MMO did consult some groups— the excellent BBC series “Cornwall: This Fishing Life”. specifically, the Royal Fowey Yacht Club. The club The series has highlighted, and brought to national replied that the original location for the mussel farm prominence as never before, the highs and lows of the would have had an adverse effect on recreational boating Cornish fishing communities and the tremendous risks and sailing, and that led to the farm’s being moved to a involved in one of the most dangerous professions. place where it became a hindrance to fishermen. I place Of the six episodes that were shown, I would have to it on the record that I have nothing against the Royal say—although I may well be biased—that the first was Fowey Yacht Club. It is a fine establishment, which can the best, because it highlighted the thriving harbour of be traced as far back as 1880, and whose patron is no Mevagissey in my mid-Cornwall constituency and the other than the Duke of Cornwall. I absolutely respect fishermen who fish out of that port, often in under- the club’s right to be consulted on the application, and 10 metre boats, in all weathers and at all times of to raise its concerns regarding the positioning of the the year. new mussel farm. Let me provide some important background information Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con): The MMO on this jewel in the crown of fishing in Cornwall. does not have a great track record on consultation. Its Mevagissey is the second busiest and fastest-growing recent proposals for the catch app have not gone down fishing port in Cornwall. Mevagissey harbour is home particularly well with fishermen from Padstow. I ask my to a fleet of 62 registered fishing vessels and employs hon. Friend to consider, when he makes his approach to 94 full-time fishermen and dozens more who support the Minister, whether we could look at the catch app the fishing industry. Some 75% of the fleet work very and see whether any alternatives to that could better close to or within 500 metres of the shore at some point serve many of our fishermen in Cornwall. during the year, and many work exclusively close to the shore. An average year sees around £2.5 million-worth Steve Double: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and of fish landed into Mevagissey. I believe I can say with neighbour for raising that point. He makes a very good some accuracy that somewhere in the region of £1 million- point about the wider concern in the fishing industry worth of that fish is caught within 500 metres of the about the lack of consultation that often goes on with shore. the MMO. The specific point that he raises regarding The primary fishing industry aside, Mevagissey harbour the catch app has been raised by many in the fishing relies heavily on associated fishing dues and revenues, industry in Cornwall, and I hope that the Minister will but it also attracts 800,000 tourists every year, largely look at it again. because it is a living, thriving fishing port. As Members The MMO was right to consult the yacht club. However, can imagine, any issue that would impact on the lifeblood the Mevagissey fishermen, who have a legitimate expectation of Mevagissey without consultation with the fishermen to be able to fish in the area where the new mussel farm would be cause for much consternation in the community. was constructed, where they have fished for generations, That brings me to the marine licensing consultation should also have been consulted, and it was wrong for process, as carried out by the MMO, and specifically to the MMO not to consult the local fishermen. The decisions that were recently taken about mussel farms. MMO did not follow their duty to act fairly when Mussel farms, for colleagues who may not know, are considering the application, by not informing the most made by intertwining heavy rope with large floats in affected stakeholders, who make their living in the areas of coastal water. Mussels are attracted to the waters in question. ropes and grow off them, and can then be harvested. The fishermen brought this matter to my attention, I have nothing at all against mussel farms; in fact, I and on appraising the consultation process for marine am a huge fan of that growing sector. Sea farming is a licensing, I have found it to be out-of-date and not fit sustainable way to grow and cultivate shellfish, and the for purpose. I have subsequently been in prolonged mussels that are farmed from St Austell bay are, of correspondence with the MMO, with DEFRA and with 943 Marine Licensing 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Marine Licensing 944 previous ministerial colleagues, in order to seek to reform listened to their concerns, and that the system will be the process and ensure that local fishermen are an reviewed and changed, so that in future, their views are integral part of the decision making process. sought on decisions that directly affect their livelihoods. I believe that there is room to improve the MMO’s consultation process to make it more robust and much 6.3 pm more like that for planning applications. Maritime licences can, after all, have an impact on their surroundings just TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, as much as buildings on land can have following a Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow): First, I think this planning application, but at the moment there does not is the first time that I have had the honour of speaking seem to be the same level of structure or clear consultation while you are in the Chair, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure. with statutory consultees for MMO licences as there is Secondly, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for planning applications. for St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double) on securing The MMO originally replied that it would consider this debate. He is always passionate about his constituency, including local parish councils among the statutory and is constantly standing up for his community. I agree consultees for fishing communities. Again, that would that the short film, “Bait”, which I have seen, is an be similar to the process followed for planning applications. invaluable slice of that iconic life in his part of the Parish councils such as Mevagissey’s are integral parts world. It is really worth seeing. of their community, are well connected with the local Let me take this opportunity to recognise the importance fishing community and harbour, and would, in my of marine licensing and planning, which are vital tools mind, be natural consultees. However, that was not in managing the use of our marine space and the followed up, as it was apparently considered to involve competing demands placed on it. My hon. Friend’s too much additional work for the MMO. I would debate is timely,with the launch of the Marine Management challenge that. Particularly in areas such as Cornwall, Organisation’s consultation on four new marine plans which has a unitary council and no district councils, in January. The delivery of the plans is a key aspect of parish councils play an increasingly important role in the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. Marine plans representing their communities. It surely cannot be inform and guide marine users and regulators across beyond the MMO’s ability to consult directly with them. England. The plans will manage the sustainable If, however, the MMO is not prepared to consult development of marine industries, such as wind farms parish councils, a fair compromise would be to transfer and fishing, alongside the need to conserve and protect responsibility in the consultation process for checking marine species and habitats. Economic growth will be with local bodies such as fishermen’s associations from supported in a way that benefits society while respecting the MMO to the local authority, which is already a the needs of local communities and protecting the statutory consultee. This would accomplish the dual marine environment. outcomes of taking pressure off the MMO and allowing the local authority, which would presumably have a Marine planning enables the increasing and, at times, greater knowledge base, to speak to the right people. If competing demands for the use of our marine area to that does not happen, the MMO, in conjunction with be balanced and managed in an integrated way. The the local inshore fisheries conservation authorities, should Government are committed to ensuring that there is a draw up an up-to-date list of all fishermen’s associations full set of marine plans in place by 2021, so that we and make them integrated statutory consultees for every meet the commitment set out in our 25-year environment licensing application. plan. The plans will be a significant milestone for the Government in ensuring the long-term sustainable There is also scope—I ask the Minister to look at development of our seas. Marine development is central this—for modernising the public notice element of the to the Government’s ambition. Indeed, everyone seems process, which stipulates only that a small and sparsely to want a piece of the blue space right now, so we will worded notice be published in a local newspaper. As we keep under review how our approach to marine planning are all aware, the readership of local newspapers is might need to evolve to meet future challenges. I welcome falling as more and more people obtain their news my hon. Friend’s comments because this space will online. This method of giving notice of applications definitely be growing and evolving. seems outdated. The process could be brought up to date; applications could be circulated online, alongside Interested parties have been, and will continue to be, theexistingnotice,aspartof theMMO’sregularcommunication engaged in the process, and will have an opportunity to with fishing communities. Fishermen also tell me that influence how their marine environment is managed. the MMO’s website is difficult to navigate; even when That is very important. The recent marine plans they know that there is a live licensing application, it is consultation covers my hon. Friend’s constituency of difficult to find it on the website. St Austell and Newquay, where the local sea area is In conclusion, I hope I have shown that the MMO recognised to be vital. The draft south-west inshore licensing consultation needs to be reviewed and significantly plan, which covers a total of approximately 16,000 sq changed. The MMO needs to change the process to km of sea—a big space—will introduce a strategic ensure that groups such as fishermen and parish councils approach to inform where activities might take place. are aware of licensing applications and are consulted on The MMO has undertaken extensive public engagement them. It needs to modernise the way it notifies the in the development of this plan to ensure that it captures public about applications, and to improve its website, so local priorities. that live applications can be easily found. The consultation closes on 6 April, and I have asked I hope the Minister will take on board the points I the MMO as a matter of urgency to ensure that it writes have raised on behalf of my local fishermen. I look to the relevant coastal MPs to highlight the importance forward to going back to Mevagissey and giving the of contributing to the consultation, just in case they fishermen the good news that we in this place have have not done so already—or, indeed, to forward it to 945 Marine Licensing 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Marine Licensing 946

[Rebecca Pow] and how they can input into it. I take many of my hon. Friend’s points about how that might potentially be people that they think ought to be involved. Likewise, improved. I encourage any body or organisation that has an interest The Government have a commitment in the 25-year in the local sea to respond to the consultation. The environment plan to ensure that all local authorities importance of stakeholder engagement in this process with a coastal interest are signed up to the coastal cannot be overstated, which is why a statement of concordat by 2021. The coastal concordat is designed to public participation is in place for these plans, setting remove red tape and streamline the consenting process out how and when we will engage with stakeholders for both regulators and applicants. This applies to the during the marine planning process. When these plans consenting of coastal developments in England. The are adopted, someone applying for a licence or approval MMO welcomes feedback on how to improve this will need to show how they have considered the plan, so service, and it will always seek to implement this where this will be an important step in the future of marine practicable. planning. In2017-18,theMMOdeterminedmorethan800applications Although marine plans play an important strategic on variations to licences—in 94% of cases, within a role, the delivery of sustainable development in our seas 13-week framework. I specifically asked for these figures is underpinned by our marine licensing system. Marine prior to this debate because I wanted to know exactly licensing covers a diverse range of activities—from what it is dealing with—and it is pretty significant. The depositing a marker on the seabed, through to significant MMO always strives to improve its service. On hearing infrastructure developments. Introduced under the Marine my hon. Friend’s concerns relating to difficulties with and Coastal Access Act, marine licensing is a process by the Mevagissey Fishermen’s Protection Association’s which those seeking to undertake certain activities in experiences of the consultation, I will urge it to do more the marine environment are required to apply for a in this area, including the website improvements that he licence. This is to ensure that we can promote the mentioned. economic and social benefits of the marine environment I will now focus on the marine licence consultation while minimising the adverse effects on the environment, for the mussel farm in Mevagissey bay. I do love a human health and other users of the sea. Under the mussel, with a bit of white wine cream—lovely—and a Act, in England we have delegated the responsibility for bit of onion, chopped: very nice. My hon. Friend is implementing marine licensing to the MMO, and our right to bring to our attention the concerns of the approach to marine licensing is based on evidence-based Mevagissey Fishermen’s Protection Association on the decision making through which human activities in the marine licence consultation for a mussel farm in Mevagissey marine area are regulated. bay. I thank him, the Mevagissey Fishermen’s Protection Association and the MMO for their efforts to find an My hon. Friend raised some serious concerns about acceptable way forward. It is important that individuals the licensing regime, and he made no bones about it. can make their voices heard on decisions that may affect Let me highlight the recent improvements made to the them. I note the concerns of the association and others marine licensing system. Only last year, the Government on how the consultation for the marine licence application exempted certain activities from the licensing process to was conducted. Those concerns focus on the potential support those who realise environmental benefit—for impact on the Mevagissey fishermen and other users of example, to enable divers to remove marine litter from a the bay, and the perceived lack of consultation regarding marine area without the need to apply for a marine the licence application. licence. I know that my hon. Friend has a particular I understand that subsequently the MMO has worked interest in this area. This is just one of many steps that with the Mevagissey Fishermen’s Protection Association we are taking to ensure that plastic waste does not to try to resolve this, and that the MMO had initially pollute the ocean. Between 4.8 million and 12.7 million explained that its consultation process gave the fishing tonnes of plastic enter the global ocean every year; it is industry the opportunity to comment through the inshore absolutely shocking. That is why we have to focus on fisheries and conservation authority or through public tackling this flow, and hopefully this is one measure representation. Following further correspondence with that will help. In the resources and waste strategy for the association, the MMO has offered to consult it on England, we set out how we will minimise waste, promote any future amendments to the marine licence in question. resource efficiency, and move towards a more circular In the light of concerns raised, though, it may be the economy. case that consideration should be given to providing The MMO has focused its efforts on improving the guidance to the MMO about the circumstances where public consultation process, including making the process the IFCA should be offered the chance to be a formal of submitting representations via the online system consultee. I shall explore this further. more user-friendly. This has been to the benefit of My hon. Friend inquired whether parish councils can parish councils and others who have used the system. be made statutory consultees in the marine licensing Where parish councils or any other party have expressed process. The Marine and Coastal Access Act does not a desire to be included in a specific consultation, the name specific persons or bodies that have to be consulted MMO can facilitate that when it is practicable to do so. on a particular application, but it provides that the The MMO has also designated area liaison leads for MMO may consult any person or body with relevant coastal development to attend coastal groups and forums expertise about a licensing application, in addition to an at a regional level around the country. Through this obligation to have regard to any representations made engagement activity, the MMO seeks to raise awareness by any person in respect of a particular application. and understanding of the marine licensing process. It is The MMO has considered the points that my hon. really important that people understand how it works Friend makes about parish councils carefully. In many 947 Marine Licensing 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Marine Licensing 948 cases, other local organisations are equally, or perhaps written for many local newspapers, their circulation is better, placed to respond to the consultation. A statutory unfortunately declining, so all ways of advertising these requirement to engage parish councils, which would things should be considered. require primary legislation, would potentially lead to a I thank my hon. Friend, who is always an advocate slower and more expensive service for the applicants. for his area and has put it on the map since he came There is a risk that that approach would achieve the here. The Government acknowledge his concerns, and I exact opposite of the efficient and cost-effective service hope it is clear that improvements to our marine planning that the MMO strives to provide. However, I am keen to and licensing are being worked on as I speak. I will explore further how local engagement on marine licence write to the MMO to ask it to further consider how it consultation can be strengthened with the MMO and consults fishermen’s associations and parish councils, other local bodies. If a relevant parish council is key to and I shall report back to him. a particular application, it seems important to seek its Question put and agreed to. views; that is a good point. I take my hon. Friend’s point about advertising forthcoming applications in local newspapers.Even though 6.16 pm I am a great advocate of our local press and have House adjourned.

287WH 12 FEBRUARY 2020 UK Fisheries 288WH

Faced with the loss of access to UK waters, the Westminster Hall European Union must now reduce its own fleet to adjust. As an independent coastal state, we could be generous and give them time year-on-year to adjust; at the same Wednesday 12 February 2020 time, the UK fleet could be allowed to grow. The annually set total allowable catches will allow the Minister [SIR GEORGE HOWARTH in the Chair] and his Department to establish the real catching capacity of the UK fleet, which has been artificially suppressed from achieving its full catching potential because of the UK Fisheries share it received under relative stability, set in 1983. Given that there is potential for the UK fleet to expand, 9.30 am fishermen could even invest in newer, more modern, Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): I safer and more environmentally friendly vessels. beg to move, Much has been heard about the lack of quota available That this House has considered the future of UK fisheries. to the under-10-metre fleet. It is worthwhile looking Since the Fisheries Bill is currently proceeding in the back to what led to that situation. Under the original other place, I felt that it was timely to call for this debate common fisheries policy, the catches of that sector were to discuss the massive opportunities that a future fisheries estimated, and the fleet fished relatively unrestricted regime can provide the UK as an independent coastal until the total catch was deemed to have been used. state. The Fisheries Bill means that, for the first time in There would then be a total ban on landing a certain almost 40 years, the Minister will have autonomy under species, which incidentally also prevented shoreline leisure international law to set the rules that apply to fish stocks fishermen from landing that species. and access for fishing vessels operating in the UK The introduction of the Registration of Fish Buyers 200 mile to median line exclusive economic zone. That and Sellers and Designation of Fish Auction Sites should be seen as a massive opportunity for the UK Regulations 2005 changed that. Suddenly, it became fishing industry and allied industries. It will offer great clear that the present-day catch of the under-10-metre potential for small boatyards such as C Toms & Son fleet had been underestimated, and officials held a and Mashford Bros in my constituency, as well as number of meetings around the coast to try to find a others in constituencies right around the UK coast. solution. It was a former Labour Minister, the former The purpose of this debate is to explore the many Member for Scunthorpe, who failed to take timely action. opportunities for the industry,which, although contributing After introducing fixed quota allocations for the over- a small proportion to UK GDP as a whole, has a 10-metre vessels, he was left with no additional quota to disproportionate impact on the economies of small allocate to the under-10-metre fleet. That was the beginning coastal communities where fishing is a prime industry. I of this travesty. I pay tribute to the former right hon. urge the Minister to ensure that the mistakes of the past Member for Newbury, who tried to provide additional are not repeated, and that the UK’s new status as an quota to the under-10-metre vessels by top slicing any independent coastal state is treated as a great opportunity. uplift in quota gained from each annual Agriculture I reiterate my message in previous debates: access to UK and Fisheries Council—something that this Minister fishing waters must not simply be squandered to buy a has continued. trade agreement with the EU in other areas. I will do my Perhaps the hon. Member for Newport West (Ruth best to keep my points as brief as I can, as I am sure that Jones) would like to apologise to the under-10-metre other Members will have their own points to make. fishermen for the action of her predecessors, rather I welcome the reassurance by the Prime Minister last than simply making statements, as members of her party week that there is no need to abide by EU rules. He went have in the past, that are no more than political posturing. on to say that British fishing grounds are “first and I remind her and the shadow Secretary of State that foremost”for UK boats. As someone who has campaigned Plymouth fishermen, just like my late husband, have for almost 40 years to highlight the gross disservice long memories: they will remember the proximate cause heaped on the industry when we joined the European of the under-10-metre miniscule quota. Economic Community, it is refreshing to hear a Prime I turn to conservation. I recognise that we need to Minister say those words.I hope there will be determination record how much catch each vessel lands if we are to to ensure that any future arrangement with the EU comply with our obligations under international law. looks similar to that of Norway, and that access for While we have protection under the UN fish stocks non-UK vessels to fish in UK waters will be subject to agreement about minimum fish size and gear that can annual agreements. be used, where we have a median line between us and a The Norway agreement sets a precedent for the way member state we must adhere to international law and an independent coastal state works with the EU. We ensure that any management regime respects the must not stray from that. The EU will not be happy, but sustainability of fish stock in our waters. We must let us look back in history to a precedent that it set respect science and the maximum sustainable yields when Spain and Portugal joined: the EU fleet needed to recommended. Larger vessels have a satellite-based vessel rebalance its size to the available resource, because monitoring system introduced under the CFP, which those two member states brought with them very little has provided and continues to provide information on resource of their own but very large fleets. The rest of catch composition. the EU member states had to introduce a number of It is essential that smaller UK vessels receive their fair decommissioning schemes in order to balance the whole share of the quota. They should be allowed to fish of the EU fleet to the available resource. As a consequence, regardless of quota for a number of days a year, provided many UK vessels were broken up and scrapped. that they have enough days to ensure that their annual 289WH UK Fisheries 12 FEBRUARY 2020 UK Fisheries 290WH

[Mrs Sheryll Murray] that fishermen catch more than 10 different species. People have had problems getting through to the contact fishing pattern can continue throughout the whole year. centre. As far as the app is concerned, the threat of The minuscule share of quota for some species under criminal prosecution for estimating outside the 10% the CFP for south-west fishermen is often attributed to tolerance should be removed, and there should be a the lack of historical catch data. I fully understand the complete rethink about the new system. intention of the new app the Minister has introduced. However, a trusted friend with vast knowledge of the Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): I fishing industry recently wrote to me that the Marine congratulate my hon. Friend on landing this timely Management Organisation has introduced a new licence debate. I apologise to her—and to you, Sir George—that condition that requires skippers of under-10-metre boats I cannot stay for the whole debate; unfortunately, I have to estimate, or guess, within a 10%— a clash, which I discovered only this morning. My hon. Friend touches on all the problems with Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) rose— how to fish in a mixed fishery. Does she agree that one of the real horrors of the CFP is the extraordinary level Mrs Murray: I give way to the right hon. Lady. of discards? The industry has said that the level widely across Europe is beyond 1 million tonnes; the House of Liz Saville Roberts: I sincerely congratulate the hon. Lords says it could be up to 1.7 million tonnes. Lady on securing the debate. She is talking interestingly Our great advantage now is that we can design a about the use of technology in fishing. I am sure she system that is tailored to our fisheries and works with will agree that, as we move into this new era, investing the grain of nature, so we can stop that horrendous in health and safety on the fishing vessels around our waste. The only way to do that, which my hon. Friend coast must be integral to any measures the Government touched on—it would be great if the Minister confirmed take to support fishermen, particularly now we know this—is not to trade the allocation of fish stocks in the that the investment from the European maritime and upcoming negotiations. We must take back 100% control fisheries fund is going. We need certainty about how to of our exclusive economic zone and all that is in it, and move forward. Safety on vessels, where many people then negotiate—in a friendly, amicable way, as my hon. operate on their own, is crucial. Friend said—annual reciprocal deals, so we have complete control of what is in our marine waters. That would Mrs Murray: I completely agree. I know from personal bring a huge advantage to our coastal communities experience that safety aboard fishing vessels is essential. and, potentially, a massive improvement to our marine environment. Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The hon. Lady mentioned the app. A number of fishermen have told Mrs Murray: My right hon. Friend speaks with great me that it is difficult to use: certain species are difficult authority. I congratulate him on the Green Paper that to record on it and, in some cases, it does not seem he produced. I cannot remember how long ago that to work at all. I think it was given a one-star rating on was, but I congratulate him on his expertise and on his Google for its effectiveness. Does she think that needs record as shadow Fisheries Minister. I concur completely to be looked at? with what he just said. Will the Minister please meet fishermen’srepresentatives Mrs Murray: If the right hon. Gentleman is patient, I and fish auctioneers to ensure that the app is operated will come to that. in a way that reassures fishermen? Something that could To reiterate, my friend wrote that the Marine benefit UK fishermen is being interpreted as a tool to Management Organisation has introduced a new licence use against them because of the complexity of the app condition that requires skippers of under-10-metre boats and the worry that it will be used as a tool for prosecution. to estimate, or guess within a 10% tolerance, the weight There is also an opportunity to introduce a new of all fish caught, species by species, before the fish have registration and licensing regime, and to reintroduce the been landed. He went on to say that, with small quantities terms of vessel ownership and associated conditions of fish, it is almost impossible to estimate that reliably that were first introduced by the Merchant Shipping within 10%. If a fisherman gets it wrong, he is liable to Act 1988. That Act was introduced to stop other nations criminal prosecution, with a maximum fine of £100,000. from benefiting from UK fish quota by registering their Given the mixed catch in the south-west, my friend vessels on the UK fishing vessel register. People who did continued, that could put an extra hour or two on the that were commonly described as “quota hoppers”. end of a long working day for an under-10-metre trawler. Although the European Court of Justice ruled that that That is totally unreasonable and is not safe. There is no Act of Parliament was contrary to the treaty, the fact de minimis exemption for small catches; every fish has that we are now not members of the European Union to be counted and its weight estimated. Over-10-metre provides us with an opportunity to ensure that those vessels are exempt from having to log catches of less so-called quota hoppers comply with UK law. than 50 kg per species, which obviously reduces the I acknowledge that some measures have been introduced problem of trying to estimate the weight of small quantities. at EU level to provide that an economic link must be I have used the app myself, so I have seen some of the shown, but, as is often the case, those measures are at problems that fishermen encounter. My friend added that best weak. By restoring the terms of the Merchant there has been a string of technical and practical problems Shipping Act, we could require individual owners, or with the app and the contact centre, which is open only 75% of the registered owners of a company, to be UK during office hours. According to the app, some harbours citizens. We could couple that with a requirement to and landing places do not exist, and it does not recognise land all catch in UK ports. That would not only bring 291WH UK Fisheries 12 FEBRUARY 2020 UK Fisheries 292WH economic benefits but allow us to enhance the enforcement into the political declaration. They could have also of UK catch rules on vessels. Will the Minister speak to shown it when the Prime Minister did his withdrawal the Minister with responsibility for shipping to explore deal, but again he put it into the political declaration. that? I have been considering introducing a private For the fishing industry, in terms of political will, we Member’s Bill based on the Merchant Shipping Act. must hope that it is third time lucky. In summary, I thank the Minister both for his The difficulties that have come from management of Department’s commitment to UK fishermen and for a quota system under the common fisheries policy are the Prime Minister’s commitment. I am sure I speak for well documented, but let us not pretend that those all wives, husbands and partners of fishermen, present difficulties were created just because the system came and former, when I say that we have seen the price they from Brussels. People in the fishing industry and fishing have paid while operating under the disastrous common communities the length and breadth of this country fisheries policy.All they were doing was trying to provide know that, when it comes to remote, centralised an honest living for their families—fishing provided a mismanagement of the fishing industry, our own comfortable living for my family for 25 years—and that Governments in London and in Edinburgh—doubtless is a tribute to those men and women who put to sea to in Belfast and Cardiff too—are just as capable of treating put fish on our table. the industry with that same high-handed attitude we Some of us have seen our husbands pay the ultimate have always complained of from Brussels. price, but we have never lost hope. I look forward to There is an opportunity to reset that the system and seeing us adopt a strong stance in the forthcoming put fishermen and scientists together at the heart of negotiations, and I urge the Minister and the Government fisheries management. It does not matter whether we have to never surrender to the unacceptable demands of the a quota-based system, a days-at-sea system or some mix European Union. We must not allow the pillaging of of the two; what matters is that the science on which UK waters to happen ever again. decisions are made is sound and considered in a timely manner. Advice from the International Council for the Several hon. Members rose— Exploration of the Sea is two years out of date before it informsadecision,souseof thatiswrongandunproductive— Sir George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. I am anxious and ultimately it is at the root of many of the difficulties to cast the net as widely as possible. I think there are we have had with quota mismatch between what is in the nine Back Benchers who wish to make a speech. I am sea and what fishermen are allowed to take on to the not going to set a formal time limit, but if people adhere deck. That is the opportunity the Government face as to a four-minute limit on speeches and are careful about they construct a future system and the industry will be accepting interventions, we should be able to get everybody looking to the Minister and his colleagues in Government in. I call Alistair Carmichael. to ensure that they actually deliver. 9.53 am 9.49 am David Duguid (Banff and Buchan) (Con): I am grateful Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): to my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, (Mrs Murray) for securing the debate—a debate that Sir George. I congratulate the hon. Member for South coastal communities around the United Kingdom, not East Cornwall (Mrs Murray) on obtaining the debate, least in my constituency, have been looking forward to which, as the right hon. Member for North Shropshire for 47 years. I have spoken in a couple of these debates, (Mr Paterson) said, is timely. The next few months will and I have spoken about fishing in debates that had certainly be formative for the future of fisheries nothing to do with fishing whenever I had the chance, management. I say gently to the Minister and those but this is the first one since we left the European Union who are—at least today—above him in the food chain on 31 January. within government that, as the hon. Member for South At the end of 2020—after the transition period—we East Cornwall said, the fishing industry has a long will be outside the common fisheries policy, we will take memory. She referred to Elliot Morley’s difficulties with back control of our waters and become an independent the under-10-metre brigade. Fishermen also remember coastal state like Norway, Iceland, the Faroe Islands use of the term “expendable” from the 1970s and the and indeed the EU. That is what most British fishermen view taken by the then Conservative Government. I want, and I trust the Government to deliver it, not least urge caution for two reasons: first, we have to be careful because of the repeated assurances of the Minister, once we start calling for apologies, because they can other Ministers and indeed the Prime Minister. I find it come bouncing back. Secondly, unless the promises surprising how surprised the media are when such made to the fishing industries and fishing communities assurances are made. That is not to say, however, that are honoured in full, the Government will pay a very we take anything for granted, particularly as we go into heavy political price in the future. the negotiations. To save time, I will not echo the words There is no reason why those promises cannot be of my hon. Friend or of my right hon. Friend the met; it is simply a question of political will. The House Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson) on the and fishing communities will be looking closely to see importance of getting the negotiations right; those views whether the Government have the political will to deliver have been well represented. We will leave the CFP, but, the deal that they promised fishermen. It is as a result of as Opposition Members often remind us, that is not the those promises that some Members on the Government end of the story. It is the first, crucial step towards side have their seats. I am a little sceptical, because there reviving our fishing industry and our coastal economy have already been two tests of that will. They could more broadly. This debate is about what needs to be have shown that political will when the former Prime done to maximise that revival in the years and decades Minister did her withdrawal deal, but she put this area to come. 293WH UK Fisheries 12 FEBRUARY 2020 UK Fisheries 294WH

[David Duguid] right. I mentioned the need for access to skilled migrant workers in the catching sector, but an estimated 70% of Under the CFP, British boats catch less than 40% of workers in the processing sector are born outside the the fish in our waters—a ridiculously low amount compared UK. Will my hon. Friend the Minister comment on with closer to 85% for Norway and 95% for Iceland. what is being done in that space? I would appreciate that. With the necessary support of both of Scotland’s I am aware of the time and want to allow other hon. Governments it is not unreasonable to expect that, over Members to speak, so I will conclude. The Government time, we will meet the objective of the Scottish Fishermen’s have stood by the fishing industry throughout the Brexit Federation for fishing to be the fastest growing sector in process, bringing an end to decades of neglect under the Scotland in the next 10 years. I have made many such CFP. If we continue to stand with the industry after representations to the Minister, but what plans do the December and make common-sense reforms and Government have to support growth of the industry not investments, we will make our coastal communities a just in Banff and Buchan but around the United Kingdom? great Brexit success story. As has been mentioned, last night the Fisheries Bill completed Second Reading in the other place and will 9.59 am now go to Committee. Opposition Members may be inclined or tempted to amend the Bill when it comes to Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. this House. I tabled an amendment to the previous Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray) for incarnation of the Bill, as did the right hon. Member bringing the matter forward, and for her commitment for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), to ensure and energy. She is a credit to her constituency. I thank that its commencement would take place no later than the Backbench Business Committee for the selection of December 2020. That is now redundant, as we know the debate. It is essential, during this time of transition, that commencement will take place at the end of the that we get things absolutely right for our fishing industry. transition period. In a recent briefing on the Bill, the I refer to the industry, rather than to fishermen, because SFF said: it is about more than the livelihoods of fishing families. It is about an entire industry—the suppliers, the hospitality “It is workable in its current form and should not be rendered industry, exports and wider matters. I must give credit unworkable through the addition of unnecessary amendments.” where it is due—and not simply to the members of the It is well known that the fishing industry has had fishing communities, who have been tireless in their difficulty attracting young skippers and crew from local work to secure the future of the fishing industry for the communities—it certainly has in my constituency for benefit of us all. I must also thank the Fisheries Minister; most of my adult life—and while exit from the CFP he knows that he is highly esteemed among all of us should go some way towards addressing that problem, who are involved in the fishing sector, and I thank him we must ensure that the post-Brexit system gives for all his hard work. I also thank the Immigration opportunities to new and young entrants to the sector. Minister for his willingness to make himself available. In the short term there will continue to be a need for There are four Members present—they know who they non-UK crew in the catching sector. In recent years, the are—who have been working hard on the tier 2 fisheries industry, already seeing the “sea of opportunity” light exception. That is something where we want to see the at the end of the CFP tunnel, has made moves to attract full potential coming in. more new and young entrants, becoming a more Non-European economic area fishing crew has been professional and safer industry in the process. However, an ongoing issue, and the hon. Member for Banff and the Scottish White Fish Producers Association estimates Buchan (David Duguid) referred to it. I look forward to that it could take at least another decade before it working with him and others to bring forward a pilot becomes anything close to self-reliant on local labour. scheme, which I hope can be endorsed post-Brexit. Our In the meantime, a limited number of non-EEA fishermen fishing fleet is competing directly with the EU’s, and can enter the UK to work on our fishing vessels on a that means that in Northern Ireland we are competing transit visa, but they can work only outside 12 nautical with Ireland’s fishing fleet. To reach our potential we miles, which is a particular problem on the west coast of must have skilled and experienced crews in place. That Scotland and the Western Isles—I am sure we will hear does not just happen, but it needs to happen for us to about that from the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an succeed. I am very much looking forward, now that we Iar (Angus Brendan MacNeil). What discussions has have left the EU, to the extra quota being dispersed the Minister had with the Home Office about that? among fishermen within the United Kingdom of Great What can be done? Britain and Northern Ireland, so that we all gain. Just The future of our fisheries industry is about more last week, it was mentioned in the press that the Government than the catching sector. CFP exit can unlock enormous are to spend some £30 million on fishing enforcement economic potential in our coastal communities. In port vessels. It is heartening to know that the Government towns such as Peterhead, Fraserburgh and Macduff in are spending that money, because it means that the EU my constituency, the seafood industry looms large in its fishing fleet cannot come willy-nilly into the waters own right, and the wider economy also benefits from a around the UK and take advantage of the fish resources thriving fishing industry. Marine engineering and that belong to us here and not to them. manufacturing, including the only manufacturer of steel- The Dublin Government first introduced legislation hulled fishing vessels in Scotland, are found in my designed to resolve the issues around the recruitment of constituency.The growth of those industries immediately non-EEA fishermen in 2016, but Irish over-15-metre connected to fishing could spur a broader upswing in trawlers are entitled under the common fisheries policy the coastal economy. More jobs and prosperity will to fish anywhere in the waters around Ireland and the produce yet more jobs and yet more prosperity. Again, United Kingdom. Ironically,non-EEA fishermen employed we will fully achieve that only if the conditions are in Northern Ireland on over-15-metre trawlers are restricted 295WH UK Fisheries 12 FEBRUARY 2020 UK Fisheries 296WH to operating outside the UK’s 12-mile territorial limit. have said all the right things so far, but fishermen are Again, that puts us at a disadvantage. There are not clear about trade and fisheries—arrangements must be many options outside the 12-mile limit. We can contrast kept separate—and about resisting the EU. We hear that to the options available for fishermen working, for from a few individual member states that they will example, from Peterhead or Fraserburgh, who have the exercise a veto, and so on; but not many of the 27 are whole of the North sea at their disposal. Even before that concerned about our waters, and perhaps we should the UK becomes an independent coastal state, Northern stick to our guns. We should hold our position and not Ireland’s fishing fleet’s ability to operate competitively give in to any sort of nonsense from people in, say, France. with our nearest EU neighbour is being compromised. It is clear to me that the fishermen in Northern Ireland—in However, fishermen are also clear about safeguarding Portavogie in my constituency and in Ardglass, Annalong access to the zero to 12 miles. I remember the day when and Kilkeel—need to have the same opportunities as the Minister came down to Newlyn and declared that those in the rest of the United Kingdom. we were revoking the London convention, which meant that we could restrict access to the 12-mile limit. With The dominance of the under-10-metre fishing fleet in the end of the common fisheries policy, that is completed. England Wales is not reflected in Northern Ireland, and That is valuable to my inshore fleet and to fishermen it therefore follows that the allocation on that merit around west Cornwall. Fishermen and their representatives does not suit our fleet. The under-10-metre question are asking for co-management, and they welcome creates an issue for us, and I would appreciate it if the indications from the Government about that. They do Minister would respond on that. I have corresponded not want decisions made in Brussels just moving to with other elected representatives—MPs and those in Westminster or somewhere else. They want, as the the other place. Margaret Ritchie, who used to be the Government have indicated will happen, to be involved Member for South Down, will raise in the other place in decision-making about the future, so that as those the fact that each devolved Administration must determine involved in the industry contribute to the discussion, how to allocate the fixed quota allocation to its own debate and decision-making, unintended consequences industry. I am glad to see that. We have a Northern of the kind we have seen up to now can be avoided Ireland Assembly in place now and a Minister, Edwin Poots, who can do it, and make the right decisions. I want to touch briefly on two matters that are You have been clear about the timings we should particularly relevant to west Cornwall and the Isles of work to, Sir George, so my last point relates to the fact Scilly. If the intention is to maintain the effectively that Northern Ireland’s biggest market, as with most two-tier system of inshore and offshore fisheries, at things, is mainly Great Britain. We need a clear view of some point we need to understand the definition of how the trade will operate. I want to know exactly what inshore, but today I am talking about the small-scale, it means. Will fishing boats landing their fish in Portavogie, low-impact fisheries—the small fishing boats that go Ardglass and Kilkeel have a tariff? Will they not have a out and do their work each day, land fish in the local tariff if they land fish in Scotland or Wales or England? port and then sell it, often quite locally. I believe that While I welcome the Government’s commitment to no there is a real opportunity—a hunger and thirst—for a checks in the trade of food products with Great Britain, new chapter for that inshore fleet post-London convention I have yet to see how it will work in reality. I urge the and post the common fisheries policy. Government to give clarity on those essential aspects for the Northern Ireland economy. There is already a natural restriction on that part of the fishing industry. For example, it is limited simply The future is bright for the fishing industry, but it is because of the weather—particularly the weather that in the Minister’s hands—no pressure. I beg him to work we get around our coasts. I am sure that is true around closely with his team, and to work closely with us, the Northern Ireland and Scotland as well. Days at sea are elected representatives, and the regional administrations, limited because of the weather that fairly small vessels so that this once in a lifetime opportunity can be can go out in. There is also the question of the capacity exploited for the benefit of the UK as a whole. of the vessels and the types of gear they use. Already, before quotas and all sorts of other restrictions and 10.4 am legislation are introduced, there is a limit to what those vessels can catch and to the potential harm they can Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con): I congratulate my cause to quota, so I would like to think that we can be hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall really ambitious about what can be achieved within the (Mrs Murray) not only on securing this debate, which is 12-mile limit for our small-scale, low-impact fisheries. so important, timely and relevant, but also on getting They have an opportunity to provide good food for elected to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs local communities and to see local coastal communities Committee yesterday—so well done. revived. We should not underestimate the frustration I also enjoyed that privilege, so I look forward to within the inshore fleet, especially since the introduction working with her in keeping our friend the Minister on of registration of buyers and sellers legislation, as my his toes. hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall There is no way to measure the enthusiasm and mentioned. UK fisheries policy must deliver a new appetite in Newlyn, the port that I represent, and right chapter for our fishing industry. around the coast of my constituency, for the end of the CFP madness. There are some asks from west Cornwall I will briefly mention infrastructure spend. In Newlyn fisheries. What they really want is a fair share. No we could spend £50 million to bring our port really up fisherman has ever said to me that they want exclusive to where it needs to be. That would deliver an extra access to all the fish in UK waters. What they want is a quay with deeper drafted vessels, boat lift, boat repair fair share of quota and fisheries resources.The Government facilities and engineering—all the things that would 297WH UK Fisheries 12 FEBRUARY 2020 UK Fisheries 298WH

[Derek Thomas] fund: our 200 miles in the Hebrides is about the only 200 miles that the UK has, so perhaps we could have a deliver the kind of fisheries that the UK wants, and that reorganisation of fishing entitlements within Scotland. would help to secure skills and revitalise our coastal The big boys of inequality in fishing should perhaps communities. take a warning from that. I would like to see a change and make sure that some of the revenues in the fishery waters of the Hebrides go to the Hebrides. 10.9 am There is also a danger, as we know, that the UK will Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): trade that away. One way to maybe ensure that the UK It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Government cannot trade it away is not to give them Sir George. I congratulate the hon. Member for South the power in the first place, to respect devolution and East Cornwall (Mrs Murray): we have been debating make sure that this goes straight to the Scottish fisheries together for about eight or nine years in this Government—who at the moment will not be at the very room. Fifteen or 20 years ago, I worked on a couple negotiating table to hand it away, because the UK of fishing boats and, unfortunately, I have also known Government will not let them be there. I say to the Minister, boys who have lost their lives fishing, which should “The EU can’t ask for something that you don’t have, remind us of the heavy price that people pay in the and if you make sure that that’s in Scotland’s hands, it fishing industry. The hon. Member for South East won’t be a problem for you.” Cornwall knows personally that heavy price. It is a very We should also be mindful of the immediate problem heavy price—sometimes the ultimate price. we have of selling catch to the European Union and the I will re-emphasise a couple of points; I am aware of paperwork that will be required. There have been no full the restriction of time, Sir George, and I will try to be answers and no full guidance given to the fishing community under my four minutes, to put a smile on your face by and fishermen on that. I have eight seconds left, so I the time I have finished. First things first: what can we thank all hon. Members for their many reasonable and do now? As the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan good contributions made in this debate. If the Minister (David Duguid) correctly guessed, my first port of call is listening, change can come and it can be done well. has to be the non-EEA crews. We should and we could be helping the fishing industry now.The UK Government have the power. It only takes one stroke of the pen, and 10.13 am many of the problems in Northern Ireland, in the west Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): I apologise to of Scotland and, I think, in the north-east of Scotland hon. Members, as I have to step out at 10.30 am to could be cured. If only one of the Conservative Ministers chair an all-party parliamentary group meeting. I thank could find a pen, they could write to each other and maybe my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall allow some of the non-EEA crews in that we need. (Mrs Murray) for securing this debate and for her work I have in my hand a report given to me by the as chair of the all-party parliamentary fisheries group. excellent lawyer who has been working in this area, I am extremely fortunate that in my constituency I Darren Stevenson. It is a “Report on the Government have Salcombe, Dartmouth and Brixham, making it Task Force on Non-EEA Workers in the Irish Fishing unquestionably the most beautiful coastline in the Fleet December 2015”, with a foreword written by the country—as hon. Members will all agree. However, Tánaiste, Simon Coveney. It shows a Government that within my constituency lie three particularly prominent is prepared to work with the industry, with the realities towns that benefit from our leaving the CFP.In Salcombe of the industry, and ensure that it facilitates people’s and Dartmouth, we have a shellfish industry that is coming in. I did have to smile,however,that the self-reported booming, which is looking at exports both within the amount of non-EEA crew was about 9.3%, but when European Union and further afield, and I hope to be inspections were carried out on 25 fishing vessels in able to support that. I think my hon. Friend has raised Ireland in 2015, it turned out that the non-EEA crews some of the issues and concerns with the under-10-metre were up to 42%. That did not seem to be a great problem fleet vessels, especially with the recent introduction of for the Irish Government, who worked with the grain of the app. In Brixham, I have the highest-valued port in what was there. In the CFP or out of it, as the hon. England in terms of catch. Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for Banff I will use this opportunity to add my thoughts about and Buchan and the right hon. Member for Orkney and the future of the UK’s fishing industry and how we Shetland (Mr Carmichael) all know, fisherman have for might be able to support it. There is no doubt that the years been banging a drum at the Home Office to get feeling in this Chamber has been that our fishing industry that changed, and it has not changed at all. has been let down over the past 40 years and that we There is something else that we should be thinking now have an opportunity in 2020, 2021 and the years about in the fishing space at the moment. The big shout ahead to reignite the relationship that we have with not was that the UK will be leaving the CFP “when Brexit only with our fishermen, but those waterside businesses, happens”. Now,allegedly,Brexit has happened—although of which many are dependent on a vibrant coastal at the moment the UK is in this phase of being a rule community infrastructure and economy. It is time that taker—but we are most definitely in the CFP. This is an this House, this Parliament and this Government showed opportunity for fishing reorganisation, and that is what their dedication to those fishermen and those businesses. people are talking about in the CFP. That potential can be unlocked in a number of ways, When I look to the Faroe Islands and I see the first and undoubtedly by securing free and independent control they have, I think to myself, “Why don’t the coastal waters, ensuring that we are not just talking Hebrides, Orkney and Shetland have control of some about the freedom and right of navigation, but the aspects of their fishing?”Wecould have a sovereign wealth freedom and right for us to fish those waters to the full 299WH UK Fisheries 12 FEBRUARY 2020 UK Fisheries 300WH extent, and allowing us to negotiate and renegotiate on I will end on this: the Prime Minister is often quoted an annual basis. We had colleagues from Norway in this as saying that he is in favour of “oven-ready” deals or room recently, discussing their arrangement with the opportunities. It seems to me that there is a perfect European Union; I think that is something we would all opportunity for us to deliver for our coastal communities like to echo, especially to the Minister, as something and to expand on an industry and a trade in which we that the UK might seek to replicate and enhance in the have a long and fruitful history.I look forward to working coming years. with hon. Members across the House in doing so. We must also ensure that we create a flexible working model that relies on co-management. Having a variety 10.18 am of multiple voices from different areas across the country feed into how we enact policy across our coastline would Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): It is a pleasure to be of enormous importance and extremely useful. Having serve under your chairmanship, Sir George. I congratulate a ministerial representative for our English fishing fleet the hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray) would be in line with what the devolved Administrations on bringing forward this important debate. have, and something that I know my fishermen in Brixham I will make a few points. With devolution re-established are extremely supportive of. in Northern Ireland, the Minister will have a friend in Last year,to much applause, the Government introduced Northern Ireland under the Ministry of Edwin Poots, the maritime and fisheries fund. I welcome that for the who has a proven track record in dealing with environmental communities that can bid, but my own port in Brixham—I issues as a farmer himself and as a person who has dealt repeat, the largest fishing port in England—has been with the fishing community over the years. I hope that unable to bid for that fund because it is a local authority that leads to a good rapport between the Department port. I do not believe that it sends the message that we here and the Department in Northern Ireland, because are supporting our fishermen when a Government- we require good partnerships between Westminster and announced fund restricts their being able to bid. I hope the devolved regions to make sure that we get our act the Minister and his team will work with me to help me together and that fishing interests across the entire to find a way in which we can support that port and United Kingdom are properly and fairly met. That is other coastal communities. absolutely essential. As I have mentioned, there are a number of waterside Northern Ireland promotes evidence-based protection businesses that I would like to explore in the years to of our marine environment, side by side with a sustainable come, whether that is boat building, dry dock facilities, and profitable fishing industry, which can only be done fish processing plants, the restaurant trade, tourism or when there is good co-operation between fishermen, environmental conservation, many of which are included producers and processors, industry leaders and advisers in the Fisheries Bill that is coming before this House. and the Department. It is essential that those good Those are all really welcome opportunities, but we must relationships are honed and developed. explore how we can increase infrastructure across the In the Irish sea, 80% of the UK’s fishing effort comes country to allow us to exploit the enormous benefit that from Northern Irish fishermen, who need to be treated they will have for our communities. Our fishermen are fairly and allowed to continue to have a profitable industry. the stewards, and their success will breed success for The fishing industry expects to be part of realising the other industries. full potential that Members rightly alluded to, and the Mention has been made of the under-10-metre fleet, opportunities that people say will exist with Brexit have and I will touch on that briefly. First, there seems to be to become tangible and meaningful. As with Norway a problem for those under-10-metre vessels about where 40 years ago, the EU will have to accept a diminution of they are registering their catch. The lists are based on the share of catches from EU waters, which means that EU port data, which means that in my constituency a catches for non-EU boats will have to be properly number of ports are not registered. We are unable to negotiated and shared out. We want to make sure that put in applications for bids because those ports are not our fishermen’s rights are properly enforced and protected registered on the EU data app, so when we would like to by our Government; that sovereign British waters remain request funding for, say, winches or any equipment for sovereign British waters; and that we get the lion’s share those ports, there is an inability to do so. of the catch in those waters. The second thing revolves around digital connectivity: The Irish election throws up a particular challenge an app that is unable to connect—especially in my for Northern Ireland. With Sinn Féin now the largest constituency, which lags some 9% behind the rest of the party in both parts of the island, will it defend the EU country in terms of digital connectivity—makes it near policy that annually loots Northern Ireland fishermen’s impossible for any fisherman coming in to be able to rights? Let us see if it actually protects the interests of connect and register that catch before landing. That is fishermen in the Republic of Ireland against the rights something that I would very much like to see delivered. of fishermen in Northern Ireland. That will be a huge Finally, Scotland is home, I believe, to a skipper challenge for Sinn Féin, and no doubt for the Minister training school, but there is not one within England that whenever he negotiates arrangements and agreements I have recognised, although I am very happy to be between our nations. It will be interesting to see what wrong on that. I am working with my own fishing side Sinn Féin falls on. I would not like to hazard a roundtable, which held its first meeting two weeks ago, guess; I suspect I know, but let us wait and see what to see how we can explore opportunities to create a ultimately happens. skippertrainingschool,toencouragepeopleintotheindustry There are four or five key issues that the Minister has and to ensure that people can see the vibrancy and to address. Crews have already been alluded to by opportunity within it. I hope we can explore the different several Members, and I know he will want to speak on avenues and potential for expanding that. that. However, there is a challenge for the Government 301WH UK Fisheries 12 FEBRUARY 2020 UK Fisheries 302WH

[Ian Paisley] In the coming months, the Government must be proactive not on two fronts—the Fisheries Bill and as to how they will apportion catch within the UK to trade negotiations—but three, because they need to put UK regions. That is absolutely essential. Fishermen are in place the management systems and infrastructure waiting to know the plan, and trust that it will be fair needed to rebuild the UK fishing industry. The REAF and proportionate. While the crews issue needs to be report sets out how we can do that in East Anglia. I am finalised, remember that Northern Ireland stands on grateful to the Minister for his support for the project, the frontline with the EU, in terms of its land border but we need to implement the report’s recommendations. and its sea border, and it is therefore absolutely essential I will briefly outline how we should do this. that Northern Ireland’s fishermen are given protections First, I would be grateful if the Minister asked his and the absolute right to fish our sea without being officials at the Department for Environment, Food and encumbered by threats from Ireland. Rural Affairs and the Marine Management Organisation A 2018 Select Committee report mentioned that we to engage proactively with East Suffolk Council, which need a proper processing hub and a new harbour at is supporting the project, to ensure that it moves forward Kilkeel, and I encourage the Minister to deliver that. quickly to the implementation stage. Secondly,the Minister Finally, what plans do the Government have to manage has previously advised that the Government will carry catches of lobster, salmon, mussels, oysters and other out an hours-at-sea pilot. Our request is that this should crustaceans on the north coast for smaller fishermen? take place in East Anglia. Thirdly, there is a need not only in East Anglia but all around the UK to invest in infrastructure. The fleet, our ports and our processing 10.23 am facilities are in urgent need of upgrading, and I urge the Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): It is a pleasure to Minister to ensure that there is provision for that in the serve under your chairmanship, Sir George. I congratulate 11 March Budget. If the right signals are sent out, they my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall can act as a catalyst for significant private investment. (Mrs Murray) on securing the debate. We have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and we must not squander it. Over the next few months, the future of fishing in the UK will be the focus of much attention in Westminster, in the media and, most importantly, in those coastal 10.27 am communities that all here represent. We have a great Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): I do not opportunity to revitalise the industry, so that it can play know whether hon. Members have had the pleasure of a full role in the economy of towns such as Lowestoft, visiting Fleetwood, eight miles north of our famous where in recent decades its importance has greatly neighbour, Blackpool, on the Lancashire coast. The diminished. Time is short, so I will make some brief town boomed in the first half of the 20th century, comments, first on the Fisheries Bill, then on the upcoming mainly down to the deep sea fishing industry, which at trade negotiations and finally on how we should set its height employed around 9,000 people in the town. about rebuilding the industry post Brexit. Unfortunately, the second half of the 20th century was The Fisheries Bill provides the framework within less kind to Fleetwood. Anyone who knows anything which the industry will be rebuilt. Generally, its provisions about fishing will know that the late 1960s and early should enable us to do that, although consideration 1970s saw the cod wars and the decline of the deep sea should be given to amendments to address the following fishing industry. issues. First, we should ensure a fairer distribution of Because Fleetwood was a deep sea fishing town, the fishing opportunities in favour of those inshore boats, loss of trawlers and fishing grounds in the north Atlantic the under-10-metre vessels that make up the majority of hit our town hard. The last deep sea trawler left Fleetwood the East Anglian fleet. Secondly, full consideration should in 1982, three years before I was born. We now have be given to how best to strengthen the economic link, so only a small number of inshore fishing boats in the as to ensure that coastal communities have every port. However, there being so few left does not mean opportunity to benefit from increased landings. Thirdly, that we do not have an emotional connection and a the ability to fish sustainably should be ingrained in the sense of identity around fishing. In fact, there are still Bill, and there must be no loopholes whereby unacceptable many fishing industry jobs in the town, including in fish practices, such as electro-pulse fishing, can continue. processing—and, of course, there is the biggest employer As the Government commence negotiations on our in the town, Lofthouse of Fleetwood, which manufactures future trading relationship with the EU, I urge them to the famous Fisherman’s Friend lozenges, which I am bear in mind at all times the importance of fishing in sure everyone is familiar with. regenerating coastal communities and the role it can I cannot claim that the loss of the deep sea fishing play in levelling out the economy right across and around industry is alone responsible for Fleetwood’s decline—the the UK. The Renaissance of East Anglian Fisheries empty shops on Lord Street, the lower than average life report, launched on 17 October 2019 in the Minister’s expectancy and higher unemployment rates. It has to be presence, highlights the opportunity to generate an seen in a wider context, with things such as cheap additional £32 million per annum at the quayside in the package holidays taking away from the tourist industry southern North sea alone. That can only be achieved by on the Lancashire coast and the Beeching cuts severing changing the way in which fishing opportunities are us from the national rail network—although I am optimistic allocated between countries, by moving to a geographical- that we might see some progress on that. The decline in area means of allocation—zonal attachment—from the the fishing industry in Fleetwood is an important part relative stability rule of the common fisheries policy. It of the story of our town, and why so many of my is important that, throughout negotiations,the Government constituents will be following today’s debate and the adhere to that principle. Fisheries Bill closely. 303WH UK Fisheries 12 FEBRUARY 2020 UK Fisheries 304WH

There are high hopes riding on the Fisheries Bill. The hon. Members for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall), Communities like mine have an emotional connection for Waveney (Peter Aldous) and for Lancaster and to fishing, despite many decades of decline. When Fleetwood (Cat Smith) all spoke about the importance communities such as Fleetwood voted to leave the European of making sure the economic opportunities were fully Union, under the banner of “take back control”, many seized on shore; I completely concur with that. were thinking about the fishing industry. Those people My group and the Scottish Government will consider do not want to see us taking back control of our waters the Fisheries Bill carefully, to assess whether it delivers only for those waters to be ceded in a trade negotiation for Scottish fishing communities, in our view. We will with the EU. That is what they fear. If that fear is seek to improve it throughout the process, wherever we realised, I cannot overstate the sense of betrayal that have the opportunity.Wewill be guided by the sustainable will be felt in coastal communities, not just in Fleetwood and responsible vision for fisheries management set out but up and down the country. in the Scottish Government’s “Future of fisheries Turning to the Fisheries Bill, which has been the main management in Scotland: national discussion paper.” focus of the debate today, I have two main asks that I It remains a matter of real concern that UK Ministers would like the Bill to deliver.First, it has to be a requirement have taken power to set quota for Scotland-only stocks. for fish caught under a UK quota to be landed in a UK Even if they have no intention of using it, it is a matter port, because every one job at sea supports 10 jobs on of concern that that decision has been taken. I look shore. That could be a huge part of the regeneration of forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about it. coastal communities up and down our islands. We also want to see a redistribution of the UK quota In preparation for the debate I cast my mind back to away from the large multi-national companies, because a statement issued by the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation two thirds of employment is generated by boats under and the National Federation of Fishermen’sOrganisations 10 metres, which have only 6% of the quota. It would in April 2018. They set out three criteria by which they not take that much of a redistribution to have a would measure the success of the Government’snegotiating disproportionately large effect in terms of regeneration outcomes. Those criteria were about and supporting jobs on shore, as well as at sea. “actual as well as legal authority” If we are truly to grasp every opportunity outside the over fisheries; whether common fisheries policy and to look to the long term, “fisheries management decisions on shared stocks” we need to look at how the fishing industry is supported would be made through bilateral annual agreements; to grow. That will require a holistic approach to issues and about the ability to secure “free and frictionless such as safety: commercial fishing remains one of the trade.” I will deal with each in turn. most dangerous jobs in the world. Regarding the first criteria— I will finish my remarks, Sir George, where I started: Fleetwood. On the Esplanade two bronze figures stand “actual as well as legal authority”— on the seafront looking out to the Irish sea. They are a obviously, even as a coastal state, we will still be subject memorial to all the fishermen who did not make it to the United Nations convention on the law of the sea home. If, as I hope, we see a revival in fishing in the UK, and the concept of the total allowable catch, but if all it has to be one in which the Government take safety we do is use the legal authority to take back control of seriously and that supports the people who fish our the seas and repackage the status quo with a Union seas, to put food on the plates of our nation. Jack around it, that will be very much a missed opportunity, far from the goals set out. 10.32 am Secondly, I turn to “shared stocks” and bilateral Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP): I congratulate the agreements. I apologise, Sir George; at the outset I hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray) should have declared an interest. I am vice chair of the on securing this important and timely debate. It gives us North Sea Commission’s marine resources group and all, wherever we sit, the opportunity to set out our had the opportunity to attend a fisheries conference in hopes and, perhaps, some of our fears over the change the Netherlands province of Flevoland. There, I had the that is to come. privilege to hear Peter van Dalen, a Member of the I was taken by the hon. Lady’s observations about European Parliament in the European People’s Party how Norway and its relationship with the EU could set group, talk about an earlier stage in Brexit discussions. a precedent. That is a laudable ambition, but I would He thought there should be a link between access to caution that the Norwegian Government seem to set waters and access to markets. We can instantly see the greater importance by their fishing industry than the danger with that. Even if we manage to get the relationship UK Government do, given the evidence of recent years. right at the outset, given the imbalance in negotiating We will see how that transpires. power and the importance of fishing to the economies I was also taken by the comments made by the hon. of other countries relative to our own, bilateral negotiations Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), about the prospect are a risk. Access and quotas simply become a factor in of no longer seeing EU vessels coming into our waters. I annual politicking. I do not have a huge amount of will touch on that later. My particular concern, which I confidence that UK fishermen, wherever they fish from, share with many colleagues, is about the differentiated will necessarily always be the beneficiaries of that outcome. relationship that will potentially exist between Northern Thirdly, “free and frictionless trade” depends on what Ireland and Great Britain, and whether we will see fish sort of deal is struck, or indeed if one can be struck at caught in Scottish waters landed in Scottish ports, or all. A no-deal situation, or one that sees divergence or a whether they will go through Northern Ireland for lack of alignment, could create significant difficulties seamless access to important EU markets, that might for exporting a product, whether it is a primary product not otherwise be accessed. or one at the value-added stage. For example, I am 305WH UK Fisheries 12 FEBRUARY 2020 UK Fisheries 306WH

[Richard Thomson] in the fight for a sustainable, productive and successful fishing industry in all parts of the United Kingdom. I currently a member of Aberdeenshire Council, which, shall take a leaf out of the book of the right hon. like all local authorities, provides environmental health Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) officers. There remains a real concern about the need to and say that no apologies will be made today on decisions provide export health certificates for catches, if they are made over previous decades. Instead, we want to work required. That would obliterate small-value exports of together to ensure that the UK fishing industry thrives single or small numbers of boxes. There are simply not in the new post-Brexit era. enough EHOs to cope with what would be required. All hon. Members here will know that this is a topical The qualifications to become an EHO are a Bachelor of debate. I welcome the opportunity to address some of Science degree and two years’ experience, meaning that the points raised by the hon. Member for South East people need to have a minimum of five years’ experience Cornwall; to share the vision of Her Majesty’s Opposition before they can sign off their first consignment. for the future of UK fisheries; and to highlight some of David Duguid: The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent the areas of concern on which we want real action in the point and I agree that we do not have enough environmental weeks and months ahead. health officers. As a current—and soon to be recovering— The UK fishing industry is old and established—it is member of Aberdeenshire Council, can he explain why at the core of many communities up and down the the council has to cut back on environmental health officers? country and in all four nations of the United Kingdom. From Grimsby to Holyhead and from Kilkeel to Aberdeen, Richard Thomson: The hon. Gentleman would be many jobs have relied on the UK fishing industry for better advised to direct that question to his colleague generations, and many dinner tables in the UK, and Councillor Jim Gifford, who is the leader of the council. right across the European continent and beyond, have As members of the same party they will have ample been blessed by the catches from our waters. opportunity to discuss the question. My point was that Hon. Members across the Chamber will remember it takes five years from scratch to build EHO capacity, the campaign slogans used during the EU referendum and without that there is a huge problem, which we cannot campaign in 2016 and the most recent general election: gloss over. we will “take back control”, we will be “an independent There is also a need to have heat treated pallets for coastal state” and we will “leave behind the common exports, wagons and drivers with appropriate credentials, fisheries policy”. The Conservative party made so many and there is the prospect of delays at ports. For a perishable promises, but there is very little to show for it so far. So product, that is bad news, especially as the European many promises were made: it would be a huge betrayal Union accounts for 77% of total Scottish seafood exports if the Government failed to deliver on them or, worse by value. still, sold out the UK fishers to get the trade deal that The only area of opportunity that I could concede we were told was ready to go but that the Government Brexit offers is in terms of the value that could come to are now furiously trying to secure. fishing and coastal communities. However, that requires The European Union has indicated that everything investment in skills and training and requires the will be on the table to get a trade deal; the UK Government manufacturers, the producers, to have access to product. say otherwise. There will always be some form of As hon. Members said, it depends very much on zonal brinkmanship during negotiations, but we cannot play attachment and getting access to that product. It depends games with our fishing industry. I hope the Minister very much on free and frictionless access to markets. It will make that clear to the Chancellor of the Duchy of also depends on freedom of movement. I sat through a Lancaster and to the Prime Minister himself. rather dispiriting Government response to a debate yesterday afternoon in the main Chamber about freedom Time is of the essence. Come 1 January 2021, we need of movement. We absolutely do need to have that if we to be ready to go with a new policy, a new approach and are to take full advantage. a new plan. Yesterday, the other place saw the Second Reading of the Fisheries Bill, as the hon. Member for It is very clear— Banff and Buchan (David Duguid) stated. It has been Sir George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. I have no heralded as the Government’s flagship attempt to deliver formal power to bring the hon. Member’s speech to a for the UK fishing industry.As my noble Friend Baroness close, but he does need to leave time for the other two Jones of Whitchurch said yesterday, the Bill sets out a Front-Bench spokespersons to respond. framework to regenerate the fishing sector in the United Kingdom. At its core is the UK’s right, following our Richard Thomson: Thank you, Sir George. It is very departure from the European Union, to operate as an clear that we have a Government in Edinburgh who independent coastal state under the UN, as the hon. take these issues seriously and are aware of them. I look Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) so forcefully forward to the Minister’s response to find out whether expressed. The Government have made much of the the same is true in London. potential of that to deliver for British fishers, but we all know very well the challenges that they will face in 10.40 am trying to negotiate a deal with our European partners—a Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to deal that must receive the approval of every one of the serve under your chairmanship, Sir George. I am still 27 remaining nations. relatively new to this place, but I know, like many others, Her Majesty’s Opposition are clear, and as the shadow the very personal commitment to and passion for the Minister responsible for fisheries I am clear, that we UK fishing industry that the hon. Member for South want UK fishers to get a fair and sustainable deal. I East Cornwall (Mrs Murray) has. Although we may not thank the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) for agree on everything, we stand together on the frontline his expert comments on the need for sustainability, 307WH UK Fisheries 12 FEBRUARY 2020 UK Fisheries 308WH which is vital as we go forward. We want a deal based 10.47 am on the best scientific knowledge, and with the strict application of the maximum sustainable yield quotas The Minister of State, Department for Environment, that were sadly lacking from the common fisheries Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): I begin by policy. The Government have an opportunity to create congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for South a flourishing and healthy marine environment—one East Cornwall (Mrs Murray), who, as a number of hon. with replenished stocks and that helps to deliver on our Members said, has been a passionate campaigner for net zero carbon ambitions. the fishing industry; her technical knowledge of this I want fishing quotas to be distributed more fairly, sector is second to none. It is great that she managed to away from the select few who dominate ownership and secure the debate today, because of course we would to the smaller boats and fleets that use low-impact gear, generally have an annual fisheries debate in December, as the hon. Member for St Ives (Derek Thomas) so in the run-up to the December Council negotiations. eloquently highlighted. Smaller operations create Last December, however, all of us had other things on significantly more jobs per tonne of fish landed than our minds—knocking on doors and delivering leaflets. the larger companies. We also want high levels of It is therefore good and timely that we are having the compliance with fishing limits, through the use of debate now. compulsory surveillance technology and an increase in My hon. Friend explained in some detail the genesis inspection vessels to ensure that deliberate overfishing of our problem with the common fisheries policy. It is is punished; that was mentioned by the hon. Member essentially that in the 1970s, as we joined the European for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I also want to be clear Union, we gave the European Union the right to control that British fish, caught in British waters, must land in access to our waters—and at exactly the same time, we British ports. That brings jobs and maintains livelihoods. were being progressively driven out of our traditional We should see an end to the unnecessary red tape that fishing grounds in Iceland. The first, second and third the Government send our fishers’ way. One example, cod wars culminated, in 1976, with British fishing vessels, obviously,is the catch app, which has been well highlighted the long-distance fleet, being excluded to 200 miles today by my right hon. Friend the Member for Alyn from Iceland. and Deeside (Mark Tami), the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) and, of course, My hon. Friend was also right in saying that while the hon. Member for South East Cornwall. It is ill thought the EU was developing catch data in the late ’70s, we out, and we need the Government to pause and rethink. ended up with an appalling and unfair share of the catch, under what became known as “relative stability”— One job at sea is worth 10 jobs on land. My hon. partly because our fleet was in Icelandic waters and Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat therefore not fishing to the extent that it normally Smith)highlightedtheimportanceof onshorejobsassociated would in our own waters, and partly because of patchy with the fishing industry. We need to empower and data and patchy data recording. Relative stability has enrich areas that have been let down by a decade of Tory remained set in stone ever since. It is based on a reference austerity, and we can do that by delivering a sustainable period in the late 1970s that is not representative of the and equitable fishing industry. We can do that by setting fish in our waters and not representative of what we a requirement in the new licences to land at least 70% of were catching even at the time; it also it did not take the catch in our ports, supported by UK Government account of the fact that much of our fish was being investment in green infrastructure. That will help in turn caught in Iceland. to grow the marine leisure and recreational fishing sectors. I want to say a word about Northern Ireland and the Ironically, the defeat of the UK in the third cod war real challenge facing the UK Government. The Government in 1976 led to the establishment of an international have indicated their commitment to the integrity of the convention giving independent coastal states control of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, their exclusive economic zone out to 200 nautical miles but in reality they have put a border between Northern or the median line. That was formalised in the UN Ireland and Great Britain, and that border sits on the convention on the law of the sea in the early 1980s. This Northern Irish ports. It will have a significant impact on is often not understood, but our right to control our the territorial waters of the UK and the Republic of exclusive economic zone is not something we must Ireland. These complicated issues will require serious negotiate with the European Union; it simply happens and meaningful negotiation, and I urge the Government as a point of international law,which is widely understood to ensure exactly that. by the European Commission. A frictionless border between the United Kingdom As my hon. Friend the Member for South East and the rest of Europe and the world will be key. Our Cornwall said, we are clear that we want to be like fish and seafood, including shellfish, which the hon. Norway: an independent coastal state in control of the Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) reminded us resources in our waters,holding friendly annual negotiations about, are all perishable and will diminish in quality, with our neighbours—a mutual exchange of access as value and availability if they have to sit in customs for well as an annual discussion on the total allowable catch days on end. One major value of British fish today is and who should have what share of that catch, species that it can be anywhere in Europe in a matter of hours by species. Our approach will move away from the rather than days. We need to keep it that way. outdated, unfair and unscientific relative stability sharing I acknowledge the hon. Member for South East mechanism that currently pertains in the EU to a modern, Cornwall’sconstituency and family commitment to fishing. more scientific approach based on zonal attachment, as I hope that she will join me in holding the Government my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) to account on their promises, so that together we can indicated. In those annual negotiations we will also seek ensure that they do not put our fishers out of business. a mutual agreement on exchange of access, deciding 309WH UK Fisheries 12 FEBRUARY 2020 UK Fisheries 310WH

[George Eustice] situation by repealing the 1972 Act; in future, we could look again at provisions such as those in the Merchant what species and areas that should involve, and what Shipping Act. However, as we set out in our White sharing arrangements should be attached to any mutual Paper, our clear preference is to review the economic access agreed. link and to look at whether some of those foreign-owned We are making good progress in preparing for this vessels should be required to land more of their catch new world. Yesterday, Lord Gardiner took the Fisheries into UK ports, rather than getting into a more difficult Bill through its Second Reading. It passed without incident. discussion about whether we should take those rights I was there for the closing speeches and I can report that away from them, given that they bought the vessels in all Members of the House of Lords were content to good faith. Wedo not rule out something like the Merchant give the Bill a Second Reading. The Bill sets out several Shipping Act, but we have no immediate plans for such important things about our approach. First, it gives us a legislation. legally binding commitment to fish sustainably and The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland observe maximum sustainable yield when taking part in (Mr Carmichael) asked why fishing is in the political fisheries negotiations, and to have a series of management declaration. It is simply there to say that we will strive to plans for individual stocks, to demonstrate how we have a partnership agreement with the EU, just as the intend to get to sustainable fishing on each. Secondly, EU currently has with Norway. We will use our best the Bill gives us crucial powers to control access to our endeavours to get that by July. If there is no partnership exclusive economic zone and to require foreign and by July, there is no consequence. International law is domestic vessels to have licences—and to attach conditions what it is, and we will still negotiate as an independent to those licences when people seek access to our exclusive coastal state at those critical annual fisheries negotiations economic zone. Thirdly, it gives us crucial powers to at the end of the year. change technical conservation measures, so that we can make timely amendments—to closures for spawning My hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan grounds, to gear types and to nets, for instance. (David Duguid) talked about the importance of having a plan to support the growth of the industry—particularly My hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall in his constituency, where there is a great deal of fish and others mentioned the new—currently not particularly processing. My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney popular—app, which we have asked the vessels under made a similar point in respect of the Renaissance of 10 metres to start using. I believe that is the right East Anglian Fisheries project in his area. My hon. decision: if we want to move to a more sophisticated Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan is obviously way of managing the inshore fleet—maybe to give them very vocal on this, since the Prime Minister frequently quotas that run for several months, rather than just one asks me what our plan is to support our fishing industry month at a time, or to experiment with effort-based and to put in place the infrastructure to ensure we can regimes—it is important that we have reliable data on harness its potential as we leave the EU. We are giving catch. Studies carried out by the Centre for Environment, some thought to that area. Fisheries and Aquaculture Science have shown that there is a significant mismatch between what is recorded Several hon. Members raised the issue of attracting through sales notes and what is being caught and observed new entrants, which is an area that we are looking at. on vessels, so we need to improve the quality of the data We are examining some of the approaches adopted in that we have. the Faroes and in the USA, and we are working with It is worth noting that vessels over 12 metres and Seafish and the Seafood 2040 industry group to review those between 10 and 12 metres have a two-stage process. a number of recommendations for supporting new entrants They must record and log their catch data, which can be coming into the industry. based on an estimate, but, in the case of the over-12s, The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) within 24 hours they then must submit a landing talked about the importance of resolving some of the declaration, which has the precise weight of each species. questions about the Northern Ireland protocol, to ensure For reasons I entirely understand, the under-10s said that trade can continue. We are absolutely clear that that they did not want the administration involved in a Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK customs two-stage process when we explored this option with union, but I appreciate that a few minor technical details them. They did not want to have to record catch data regarding that protocol still need to be worked through. and a landing declaration. My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Derek Thomas) Our approach—a one-system approach of catch data made a very good point about the importance of splitting only—was designed at the request of the industry to make trade discussions from fisheries. We are very clear that the process simpler. We think most fishermen can make there will be a fisheries partnership agreement and then reasonable estimates of their weight; they do not have a trade agreement. He also made a good point about to do it while at sea. They can do it when they have tied looking at the way we define inshore fisheries, asking their vessel up. They can weigh the fish and submit the whether the current definition is appropriate, and ensuring record as they unload it from their vessel. We are working that we think about the inshore fleet as we move forward. with them to ensure we can make this work in practice. My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Anthony My hon. Friend also mentioned the Merchant Shipping Mangnall) raised the issue of local authority ports Act 1995, which is obviously linked to the well-known currently being unable to access the maritime fund; that Factortame case, which became an important test case is another area that we are looking at. I am afraid that about the sovereignty of Parliament in relation to EU EU state aid rules are the source of the problem, and law. It established the principle that while the European will be dealt with in the usual way, but we are considering Communities Act 1972 existed, EU law had supremacy that issue. Finally, the hon. Member for North Antrim over UK law. As a Parliament, we have remedied that (Ian Paisley) asked what we are doing about lobsters 311WH UK Fisheries 12 FEBRUARY 2020 312WH and shellfish. We are considering whether technical or Education and Attainment of White catch measures could be put in place to manage those Working-Class Boys stocks.

10.59 am 11 am Mrs Murray: I thank all hon. Members for attending Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con): I beg to move, this debate, which has been one of the best-attended That this House has considered education and attainment for fisheries debates I have seen in quite a long time. I think white working-class boys. the Minister has heard the message loud and clear: we It is of course an honour, Sir George, to serve under want UK fishermen to be treated such that, first and your chairmanship today. foremost, they can get the majority of fish in UK waters, just as the Prime Minister confirmed. We are I am pleased to have secured this debate today on an looking to both the Minister and the Prime Minister to important issue, although I am frustrated that we cannot deliver on that promise. have more time to discuss it. I will run through it very quickly this morning; I hope that we can consider it in Motion lapsed (Standing Order No.10(6)). more detail very soon. I welcome the Government’s commitment to levelling up across our country and investing in the communities that need it the most. I do not think that it is controversial to argue that education is one of those issues that we really need to focus on in communities with large areas of deprivation, such as my own in Mansfield, and if we are genuinely to give everyone the opportunity to make the most of their talents, then everybody needs to have access to a good education. Weknow that on average boys consistently underperform against girls, and white boys from disadvantaged backgrounds underperform against boys of all other races and ethnicities. I will reel off some statistics: by age five, white boys from disadvantaged backgrounds are already 13% behind disadvantaged black boys and 23% behind disadvantaged Asian girls in their phonics, for example; only around a third of white working-class boys pass their maths and English GCSEs; disadvantaged white working-class boys are 40% less likely to go into higher education than disadvantaged black boys; and in fact, according to UCAS, only 9% of these boys will go to university, compared with around half of the general population. I could go on forever if I had more time, but as it stands these white working-class boys are being let down by an in-built and inherent disadvantage. I am concerned that this issue has been brushed under the carpet, not necessarily by the Government—I have had conversations about it with Ministers before and also discussed it on a Select Committee, so I know that this issue is recognised—but by modern society, which refuses to see the plight of young white males, even those from disadvantaged backgrounds. I am concerned that in too many places this is a taboo subject, and that we cannot talk about the fact that white boys need more help.

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): This issue is very relevant in Northern Ireland as well. Recently, the Community Relations Council in Northern Ireland stated: “While there is under-achievement among working-class pupils generally—and this is worse among boys—working class Protestant boys continue to have lower educational attainment than Catholic boys.” We have continually heard the same thing in Northern Ireland and continually stated it, but instead of accepting this as a baseline fact we need to change the foundation across the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, with investment in the education of these boys and training in their skills,thereby addressing the imbalance that exists. 313WH Education and Attainment of White 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Education and Attainment of White 314WH Working-Class Boys Working-Class Boys Ben Bradley: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that problems with literacy that are actually intergenerational. intervention and for pointing out that this is something That event was very important in saying that wherever that is happening across the country—across the whole inequality, disadvantage or difficulties with education of the United Kingdom—and that there is a challenge might occur, we need to address that situation and have around getting these boys to engage with school, around a public policy response. parental engagement and around that drive to attain, which I will cover in the rest of my speech. However, he Ben Bradley: I thank the hon. Member for that is absolutely right that this issue is not limited to my intervention and I totally agree. As I say, I fully recognise community, or to the north of England, or to anything that the challenges I am highlighting in this speech like that; it is an issue across the whole of the United affect many communities and many children from Kingdom. For example, when we see schools turning disadvantaged backgrounds, regardless of race or gender. down funding that is offered in support of disadvantaged I have said why I am highlighting it in these particular white boys, despite the obvious problems that they terms today, but she is absolutely right that there is a experience, then we have a real issue. broader issue that we need to focus on. She also mentioned The former head of UCAS, Mary Curnock Cook, said that kind of parental drive and engagement with schools, that this underperformance is a scandal, but it remains which I will come on to. unfashionable to talk about it; in fact, it has become As I was saying, we need to understand the communities normal. She said that the discussion about white boys that these boys grow up in. In former coalfield areas from disadvantaged backgrounds has been marginalised, such as Mansfield, not so long ago boys generally left which is why I called for this debate. That situation is school before they were 16, and they went to work down not right at a time when boys are falling further behind, the pit or in a factory. There was a simplistic kind of indeed when they are already way behind before they certainty to that, in that regardless of what happened at even reach primary school, and when they are far more school, they would have a job and a career. If someone likely to be expelled from school and increasingly less was lucky, they might get to take the 11-plus and go off likely to get to university, but twice as likely to commit to grammar school to do something different. A few suicide if they do get there. I recognise fully that we children benefited from that route, but then that was need to support disadvantaged children of all genders taken away as well. and all ethnicities, but I raise this issue in these terms That certainty of career does not exist any more in today to make sure that these boys in my community these communities, but in many cases they have not get a fair hearing. moved on. Many parents in the poorest communities do not have qualifications and therefore are not able to Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): extol the virtues of school—indeed, they do not necessarily My hon. Friend is making a very powerful case and we see the point of that education—and they cannot help are listening with great interest. Does he agree that if their children to study because they do not have that level this issue is not successfully addressed, we will have of attainment themselves. disaffected youth, there will be consequences for local I have schools in my area where 70% of the children communities and a loss of real potential—of real talent—in are involved with social services, such is the chaotic our workforce? backdrop to their lives, so school is very far from the top of the agenda for those children. Boys are far more Ben Bradley: I thank my right hon. Friend for that likely to say that school is a waste of time, so we have to intervention, and I totally agree. The Prime Minister engage them in a different way and help them to see the was clear when he said that opportunity is not spread value of school. evenly around the country but talent is, and this issue is about how we engage these boys with our education Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op): I system, to make sure that they see its relevance and to commend the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate ensure that they see the opportunities they have and can and for the case that he has made; I agree with every take them. word he has said. Does he, like me, see the real sadness that generations—multiple generation—of boys from There is an awful lot to do, and we are already in a Nottingham and from Nottinghamshire, which we both position where we have lots of young men in my community represent, have had that perception that school does not who have finished school but will have to go back and matter, and as a result there is wasted talent, instead of receive intervention and support as adults, because they all the good things that they could be doing in our did not receive that throughout their education. We community if they had had a better education and we have to understand the lives of many of these boys, in had not failed them? former coalfield communities such as Mansfield. Ben Bradley: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): intervention and I agree. I meet a number of young men I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and also for who are bright, sharp and intelligent, but they do not raising this issue today. In my constituency, which is a have many qualifications and are struggling to find very mixed one, I am aware of the disparities and the work, struggling to make a positive impact and struggling inequalities in all communities, which is why it has been to see where their lives are going. We certainly need to very important for us locally to look at disadvantage do more to change that situation in the future and, as I wherever it occurs. have said, to go back to those guys who have finished May I just make the point that the issue extends school already and support them. across the country and that we have to look at different We need to prepare children for the 21st century and communities? Last year, I hosted in Parliament the update our curriculum so that it is fit for the future. event “H Is For Harry”, about a young boy who has Repetitive tasks and memory tests are no longer relevant 315WH Education and Attainment of White 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Education and Attainment of White 316WH Working-Class Boys Working-Class Boys for study and even top private schools in America have Ben Bradley: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. As shown that kids simply do not remember such stuff I have said, less than 9% of boys from tough backgrounds when they come back from school holidays. go to university, yet those technical routes are still often The OECD’s programme of international student viewed as a last resort, despite providing the opportunity assessment rankings show that memorisation remains to learn valuable skills that lead to job opportunities. In the dominant learning strategy in British classrooms. I Switzerland, for example, 70% of children undertake could go off on a massive tangent at this point, and if I apprenticeships, because they are well respected. We did I am sure that I would have a huge debate with the talk in the UK about holding such qualifications in equal Minister for School Standards on this particular issue. regard with academic ones, but we do not make them However, I only have 10 minutes to cover things today, available to all children. When I suggest that we should so I will try to focus on the headline issue, although make them available to all children, I get lots of academics there is a broader problem. telling me that I am writing off these kids, which does not sound a great deal like equal regard to me. Seema Malhotra: I thank the hon. Gentleman for We need to go in and support apprenticeship routes, giving way again. He has highlighted a very important whichmeansreformingthelevyandsupportingtraineeships, point about working-class communities and white working- as well as thinking hard about how we seem to be class boys. I have noticed in my constituency that those making even the technical qualifications more traditionally boys fall behind, especially after the school holidays, academic now through T-levels and about the other and we also know that a lot of funding that went into options for those who want genuine vocational or technical school holiday programmes has been cut, so I am starting education. We need to invest in adult learning and a campaign to try to bring back more of that activity. retraining for those we have missed in the system. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is important We should do more to show these boys the career to think about a cross-departmental policy response to options out there by offering more meaningful work this issue, through housing, education and wider afield, experience and by giving better careers or skills advice, so that we make sure that we can reach into and deal particularly from professionals who have not taken with those families that are most at risk, and so that traditional educational paths to succeed in their career. these young boys have the best chance of success? They need role models who they can look up to, and they need to be aware of all options for their future Ben Bradley: I thank the hon. Member for that study. Many do not have those role models at home who intervention and I agree. There is certainly a disparity they can turn to on education. That leads me on to the that is entrenched when those boys go home over the next bit of my speech, because it is not solely schools’ summer to a household that is not necessarily pushing responsibility; the issues stem more often than not from them to continue to learn and engage, compared with home. We are fighting a losing battle if we are forcing parents who are perhaps better-off and who drive that boys to be interested in getting GCSEs when their engagement. We must bridge that gap and I will come parents think they are a waste of time. on to some of the potential solutions. The point I am trying to make is that we need to create incentives for Seema Malhotra rose— these boys to learn and to make space in the curriculum, if needed, for something more relevant to them. It Ben Bradley: I have to plough on, or I will run out of would be wrong if we assumed that everyone’s aspiration time.The challenge, as I have said, entrenches disadvantage, was to study to degree level. We would do far better to with better-off parents more able to push their children accept that where these boys are getting nothing currently, to attain, to do homework and to work hard at school, giving them something of interest and value would be a while those who have the least education themselves or step forward. who have chaotic lives struggle to do so. Whether it meets our middle-class aspiration or not is Early interventions can help. We can refocus where kind of irrelevant; I am talking about choice and variety. we put our money in early years provision on the most Whether we do that through alternative provision or by disadvantaged, bearing in mind that currently, a couple giving all schools more freedom by offering more vocational earning £200,000 between them can access 30 hours’ and technical education, we have to do something more free childcare, but a single mum on the living wage to show the career value of what they are learning, working 15 hours a week can only get 15 hours of free perhaps by doing it thematically, rather than in subject childcare. We can encourage nurture provision in a silos that do not connect with the real world. Everyone primary setting to ensure children are engaging with needs a certain core knowledge, but outside of that school early on and can settle into primary school. That there are lots of different options. saves all sorts of issues later and draws parents into that school setting early on. We need proper youth work and Alex Norris: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? more trained youth workers to support children and Ben Bradley: I will, but then I am going to have to offer direction. Great youth workers are hugely important, stop giving way. and we have the opportunity through the youth investment fund to train thousands more. Alex Norris: I am sorry to come back again, but does When I visit schools in Mansfield, parental engagement the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a real importance is often raised with me as being among the biggest for us in this place to start talking about vocational and challenges. How do we draw them into the educational technical education with the same emphasis as higher environment to support their children at school? The education? That would set the tone that, actually, we Social Market Foundation, for example, suggests that think all those paths are just as legitimate and can lead after-school family literacy classes in primary school to full and happy lives. would encourage parents to take a more active role in a 317WH Education and Attainment of White 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Education and Attainment of White 318WH Working-Class Boys Working-Class Boys [Ben Bradley] priority. I am sure that it does. Unless we grapple with the burning injustice that faces white working-class child’s education. I know some schools do that. My kids boys in communities such as mine in Mansfield, we will go in early for phonics with mum on a Tuesday morning, not be delivering the change that is needed. and I like the sound of that, and I like the sound of using the school setting as more of a community hub to Sir George Howarth (in the Chair): Before I call Karl be able to offer other services that push those hard-to-reach McCartney, who I understand has the agreement of parents to come into the school to engage with teachers. both the Minister and the mover of the motion to The Department for Education has found that higher speak, I ask him to bear in mind that he needs to leave rates of exclusions are seen in areas of deprivation. adequate time for the Minister to respond. Pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals account for 40% of all permanent exclusions. Again, that is boys from disadvantaged backgrounds. 11.16 am There is a reason whyboys more than girls can be disruptive Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): It is a pleasure to or badly behaved in a classroom setting. Simply using serve under your chairmanship, Sir George. I rise to detention or exclusion rarely helps. According to the make a brief speech to welcome the initiative of my OECD, boys respond more to a school’s environment hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Ben Bradley) in than girls.When they are in disruptive, chaotic disorganised securing this debate. I agree with every word he said. settings, their capacity for self-regulation suffers. When Three years ago, we had a similar debate in this Chamber they are labelled as the bad kid, they become the bad on this subject, which I had the privilege to lead. kid. Often these kids do not have male role models at Secondary school league table data just published by home. They are confused about masculinity and what it the BBC on 6 February confirms that England’sschoolboys means and their role in society. We need to support have had worse exam results than girls for 30 years. them through that, not punish them. Another notable fact, reported by Ally Fogg on the We need to take bold steps fundamentally to change politics.co.uk website, is that among every ethnic group, failing schools, which can exacerbate problems, rather boys perform markedly worse than girls. Among the than help. A few weeks ago an article in The Sun most deprived children, that effect is greatest. Across highlighted so-called dumping grounds, where schools the board, a girl from a free school meals background is have struggled consistently for a long time even to get now 52% more likely to go to university than her male out of special measures. Weneed almost a “Supernanny”- equivalent. Most worrying of all is that while there has style leadership team capable of taking on these challenges been a welcome narrowing of the equity gap in ethnicity and intervening fundamentally in these schools. We over the past two decades, and even the FSM gap has need more incentives for the best teachers to work in shrunk slightly, the gender gap has been going the other such schools, which often exist in the same disadvantaged way. The difference in attainment for girls and boys is communities and so cannot attract experienced teachers. now markedly greater than that between white and It is becoming commonplace for children to have lessons black, Asian and minority ethnic students. The trend is taught by somebody who is not qualified in the subject. best illustrated by the Higher Education Policy Institute Great leaders and great teachers can transform failing in 2016, which calculated that if current trends continue, schools, and we need to equip them with the resource, a boy born that year would be 75% less likely to attend the flexibility and the curriculum to deliver real and university than a girl by the time he is 18. genuine change. The Men & Boys Coalition has done some sterling I wonder whether there is a way to build on interventions examination of this area of education and has unearthed such as the London Challenge and offer that kind of some more stark effects for our colleagues in the resource and impact to the most challenging schools Government, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and areas outside London, too.I know that the Government and the Minister here today to digest. In 2019, 62.9% of have started on some of those kinds of interventions, males received grade 1 to 4, A* to C, GCSE grades, and I would be interested to hear more about that from while 71.7% of females received the same results. Only the Minister. 54.2% of 16-year-old boys achieved a grade C/4 English To conclude, I hope we would all agree that we are language GCSE, compared with 70.5% of girls. Some missing a trick if we are not focusing on ensuring that 59.9% of boys achieved grade C/4 in maths, as did 59.2% all children of all ethnicities and backgrounds get access of girls. In the 2018 cycle, 196,105 men or boys domiciled to a good education and to life’s opportunities. That in the UK accepted places at university, compared with means we cannot continue not to talk about the plight 263,180 women or girls, a gap of 67,075 or 35%. The of disadvantaged white boys who are consistently at the figure in 2008 was 177,780 and 226,075 respectively, a bottom of the pile. gap of 48,295 or 27%. Those figures are from UCAS. We hear a lot in the media and in this place about However, I will end on a positive note. Recently, the white male privilege—it seems to overtake discussion a head of three Muslim schools that came top in England lot—and I challenge those people to come to my for progress has vowed to help white working-class community, where men spent their whole lives digging children, as analysis shows a widening gap between coal underground to keep the lights on, and who are coastal and city schools. Government tables published now dying early of lung disease as a result, and talk to recently reveal that the best three schools for progress them about their privilege. It is their children and were part of Star Academies. Although all its schools grandchildren I am talking about today. They need help, are in deprived inner cities with higher numbers of ethnic and our communities need help. I hope that this minorities, it is now focusing on deprived coastal areas Government’s mission to level up the towns and regions with mainly white populations. It has taken on schools in the UK that have the least includes education as a key in Blackburn and Morecambe on the Lancashire coast. 319WH Education and Attainment of White 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Education and Attainment of White 320WH Working-Class Boys Working-Class Boys I promoted a career academy in my first term as a background or gender, can fulfil their potential. The Member of Parliament, in partnership with Steve Penney, philosophy lies behind successful multi-academy trusts, then deputy head at the City School on Skellingthorpe such as the Star multi-academy trust cited by my hon. Road in Lincoln, to assist pupils. I urge anyone with an Friend the Member for Lincoln. It has driven our interest to seek out the rebranded Career Ready charity, curriculum reforms, our GCSE reforms, and our which seeks to raise the career aspirations of all pupils determination to move this country’s education system of whatever background in our schools, using business away from a so-called competence-based curriculum to mentors and those who wish to offer a hand up the a knowledge-rich curriculum. ladder of aspiration. Some universities have tailored E D Hirsch, the great American educationist, wrote approaches to widening participation for different under- about the example of France in his most recent book, represented groups. The national collaborative outreach “Why Knowledge Matters”. He looked at the history of programme is a national initiative focused on extending France’s curriculum reforms and the effect of the move higher education opportunities to specifically disadvantaged away from a knowledge-based curriculum towards a wards across the country. The programme operates competence or skills-based curriculum in the late 1980s. in Lincoln through LiNCHigher, which involves Comparing standards in 1987 and 2007, all socioeconomic Bishop Grosseteste University and the University of groups saw a decline in standards, with a decline of a Lincoln, and I encourage anyone and everyone to view third of a standard deviation on average. Strikingly, their various outreach programmes. children from disadvantaged backgrounds saw the greatest Universities UK is also currently conducting a major fall in standards, with a decline of two thirds of a review into admissions to look at how to make the standard deviation. That is one piece of evidence, but it application process fairer for all students. It tells me the is part of a pattern of international evidence that review will be published in the spring, and I hope it will competence-based curricula are most disadvantageous include the views that many hon. Members have expressed to the pupils we are most keen to help. today and in recent debates on the subject. I thank hon. After 10 years in office, the Government’s education Members for their forbearance. reforms are beginning to show results. Standards are rising and the attainment gap between advantaged and 11.20 am disadvantaged pupils is beginning to close: by 13% in primary and 9% in secondary since 2011. Thanks to our The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb): It is a reforms, more pupils are taking core academic GCSEs, pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir George. more children are reading fluently,and more are attending I pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for good and outstanding schools, but, as my hon. Friend Mansfield (Ben Bradley) and for Lincoln (Karl McCartney) so clearly set out, too many pupils still leave school for their passionate commitment to wanting to improve without the qualifications that they need. the education and life chances of the most disadvantaged pupils in general and, in this particular debate, white We know that synthetic phonics is the most effective disadvantaged boys. The statistics cited by my hon. way of teaching reading to all children, so we have Friend the Member for Mansfield at the start of his embedded it in the key stage one curriculum. Following speech have driven the Government’s education policies a greater focus on reading in the primary curriculum, since 2010. Closing the attainment gap between those England achieved its highest ever score in the 2016 from disadvantaged backgrounds and their more Progress in International Reading Literacy Study. The advantaged peers has driven our obsession with ensuring result was largely attributable to increases in the average that children are taught to read effectively at the age of performance of boys and lower performing pupils. As four or five, and that every six-year-old can decode Her Majesty’s chief inspector said recently, words using phonics. It has driven our desire for children “In the schools that teach reading really well, really systematically to develop a love of reading and our desire to help them using phonics, the gap narrows or is even eliminated.” develop a wider vocabulary.It has driven our determination That is the essence of ensuring that our schools adopt to adopt the practice of the best performing countries teaching methods and curricula that the evidence suggests in the world in the teaching of mathematics in primary narrow or eliminate the attainment gap between advantaged schools, and to improve the cultural literacy of all and disadvantaged pupils and between girls and boys. children, regardless of their background or gender, All children, particularly pupils from disadvantaged ensuring they have the vocabulary that will not only backgrounds, including white working-class boys, need help their reading, but will mean they have the knowledge a knowledge-rich curriculum that introduces all pupils required for academic progress. to the powerful knowledge that best prepares pupils for As Harold Stevenson and James Stigler wrote in their their futures. We see it in schools such as Michaela book “The Learning Gap”, the error is, Community School in Wembley,where the school regards knowledge about the world as essential. Its academically “the assumption that it is the diversity in children’s social and cultural background that poses the greatest problem for teaching.” rigorouscurriculumhasenabledpupilstoachieveexceptionally well. In 2019, Michaela’s results ranked among the best In fact, a far greater problem is variability in children’s in the country, with all pupils, including those from educational background and thus in their levels of disadvantaged backgrounds, making well above average preparation for learning the academic curriculum. progress. Some 41% of pupils at that school were eligible Seema Malhotra: Will the Minister give way? for free school meals at some point in the past six years, but its progress 8 score of 1.53 is one of the highest in Nick Gibb: I am sorry; I will not give way because of the country, and its EBacc entry was 84%. the time. It is a similar story at Dixons Trinity Academy in There is a philosophy behind the Government’s drive Bradford with its unrelenting focus on improving the to close the word gap and the attainment gap, and to life chances of its pupils. The academy offers a rigorous level up opportunity, ensuring every child, regardless of knowledge-rich and evidence-based curriculum, which 321WH Education and Attainment of White 12 FEBRUARY 2020 322WH Working-Class Boys [Nick Gibb] Leaseholders and Cladding has seen it right at the top of the league tables over the past few years. Similarly, we can look at the work of 2.30 pm leading multi-academy trusts such as Outwood Grange Geraint Davies (in the Chair): Before I call Hilary Academies Trust, which time after time radically improves Benn, may I simply say that 13 Back Benchers wish to schools that have had a long history of entrenched contribute? In the event that Mr Benn speaks for 20 minutes, failure. That MAT provides long neglected communities everyone will have three minutes; in the event that he in this country with the transformational education that speaks for 10, everyone will have four. He is free to take they need. as much time as he likes, and I will divide the remaining My hon. Friend noted in his speech that the standard time equally between Back Benchers. Obviously, of education suffers when schools lose their grip on interventions will take time, but they will not result in behaviour. I absolutely agree, which is why we have more time for Back Benchers. I call Hilary Benn to bolstered the powers of teachers and headteachers to move the motion. deal with unruly pupils. I also agree with my hon. Friend that it is vital that this country has a world-class Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): I beg to move, technical route for pupils to pursue technical and vocational That this House has considered leaseholders and cladding. training. Our reform of apprenticeships puts technical May I say what a great pleasure it is to serve under and vocational education on a par with academic study your chairship, Mr Davies? I am grateful to all colleagues for the first time, in tandem with T-levels. present. I know that a number will wish to intervene, Apprenticeships ensure that people can gain the training but the more interventions there are, the longer I will and qualifications that they need to enter the job market take to complete my argument, which I am keen that and ensure that employers can access the skills that they the Minister should hear. I think the turnout shows her need to make the country globally competitive. T-levels the strength of feeling on this issue. are at the centre of our plans for world class technical It is not difficult to understand why there are strong education, preparing students for entry into skilled feelings. Imagine that someone has saved up all their employment or higher levels of technical education in money and bought their first flat. It is the home of their areas such as engineering, manufacturing, health, science, dreams. They move in, the future beckons, and then one construction, and digital. They will ensure that all post-16 day a letter drops on the mat. It is from their managing students can make an informed choice between high-quality agent, and it tells them: “Yourhome is in a building that options that support progression, whatever their attainment has now been judged a fire risk because of unsafe or aspirations. We have made real progress since 2011, cladding, and as a leaseholder you must immediately—this particularly in improving the education of disadvantaged day—start paying for a waking watch. Otherwise, all of children and those of lower attaining pupils as well. you will have to move out of your homes.” In one case In conclusion, I share my hon. Friend’s deeply held in Leeds, such a waking watch is costing each flat-owner belief in the power of education to transform the life £670 a month plus VAT, on top of mortgage payments chances of pupils, particularly those from the most and the service charge. disadvantaged backgrounds. Although I know there is The leaseholder is probably then asked to meet the more to do, the Government’s school reforms and plans cost of putting in a fire alarm system, which may or to improve technical education through T-levels and the may not reduce the cost of the waking watch. Then, to proposed £3 billion national skills fund are the right their absolute horror, they are asked to pay for the cost ones for every pupil and student in our education of replacing the dangerous cladding to make their system, including the most disadvantaged pupils. building—their home—safe. The problem is pretty obvious Question put and agreed to. to us all: they simply do not have that kind of money. Their home has been rendered completely worthless, 11.28 am therefore they cannot remortgage.Their insurance premium is, in all likelihood, going up, and they worry about Sitting suspended. possibly being made bankrupt because of all the costs. That could result, depending on what job they do, in the loss of their job as well as their home. Yet none of that is in any way the fault, responsibility or doing of the leaseholders.

Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): I have a building in the Tottenham Hale village with 432 people who cannot get a mortgage or remortgage. Is it the view of my right hon. Friend that that is entirely unacceptable, because fire and building regulations are rightly the Government’s responsibility? The Government should step in to support those individuals.

Hilary Benn: That is absolutely my view. My right hon. Friend anticipates what I will come on to say.

Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing this immensely important debate. Does he agree that, although 323WH Leaseholders and Cladding12 FEBRUARY 2020 Leaseholders and Cladding 324WH the Government’s recent announcement of the aluminium was clearly a wholly defective system. However, having composite material cladding fund is welcome, it does done so, Ministers have put leaseholders in a manifestly nothing to help blocks, such as the Lexington and unjust position. Were that not bad enough, as more and Rivington apartment blocks in my constituency, that more building surveys have been done, other problems have non-ACM dangerous cladding or are plagued by have come to light, such as missing firebreaks—which other fire safety defects, such as a lack of effective mean that the buildings were never built according to firebreaks? It is distressing to see those residents, who building regulations in the first place—or wooden balconies, are worried about their finances and security, now which the new guidance says have to be replaced. suffering sleepless nights and fearing bankruptcy and homelessness. The Government need to help them out. Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): I have 1,087 developments in the Pulse development in Colindale. Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend is correct: there is a A lot of people bought those properties after the building fundamental unfairness in the treatment of different regulations were signed off by the local authority, as types of leaseholders. That is the argument that I will recently as 2017. Those people have not been protected make. by building regulations and now, as the right hon. As we have just heard from two colleagues, a growing Member says, simply cannot afford to either remortgage number of our constituents face this problem—in my or sell their property. They are in redundant properties. case, leaseholders from St George’s building and a The concern is that the assurances from building regulations number of blocks in Leeds Dock and Timble Beck, who were simply not worth the paper on which they were have other types of dangerous cladding. I pay tribute to printed. the Leeds Cladding Scandal group, to all the other groups that have been organised up and down the Hilary Benn: The hon. Member makes a really important country, and to the very aptly named Manchester point. Lots of my constituents say to me, “But it was Cladiators, who have really got organised. That name signed off under building regs. Surely that means it’s tells us how determined they are to win. safe.” Well, it does not quite mean that, for reasons that we can go into on another occasion. It is part of the system that has still to be fixed. Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): I thank my right hon. Friend for securing the debate, and Other leaseholders are drawn in because, even though for mentioning the Manchester Cladiators: a network their blocks have not been identified as having a problem, of dozens of blocks in my constituency that are affected when they try to sell the flat the mortgage company by such issues. What the Manchester Cladiators really says, “Okay—but, by the way, where’s the certificate want is to be at the heart of an ongoing dialogue with that says that this building complies with the new regulations the Government to resolve the issues. The period of that the Government have, quite properly, put in place?” passing the buck between freeholders, insurers and the If they cannot produce it, the property is worthless and Government has to stop. becomes unsellable. If that was not complicated enough, just to complete the story, the ownership structure of blocks and the history varies. The developers may have Hilary Benn: I agree completely, and I hope that gone bust, the builders may no longer be trading, and today’s debate is part of the dialogue that has already some freeholders say, “I’m terribly sorry, but I don’t begun. Leaseholders want to feel that they are being have the money to replace the cladding on this building.” listened to, and they want to be able to meet Ministers. I hope that this debate will ensure that more of that Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I draw happens. the House’s attention to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. It is not simply that Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab/Co-op): It is powerful freeholders say, “I don’t have the money.” They do not to hear how the issue is affecting people across the have the obligation. Most freeholders do not have an country, including residents of Radnor House in my obligation to mitigate any such problems. Perhaps the constituency of Croydon North, which is in south London. only people who do are the original developers—who, Leaseholders are living in a block, converted from as the right hon. Member says, may not be there—or offices, that has wooden cladding, so they do not come the leaseholders. Is that not the problem? As he rightly under the ACM fund that the Government have opened. says, leaseholders in many cases have no means to pay Yet they, too, face massive bills that they cannot afford, for that remedial work. in homes that they cannot sell. It feels to them as if the Government are penalising innocent leaseholders instead Hilary Benn: The hon. Gentleman, who has great of stepping in with real help, which is what they need. expertise in this matter, is correct. I will come to what the Government have said about the responsibility of Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend has painted a picture, freeholders, but I think the point we are all making is as we all can, of the strain, the heartache and the worry, that this is not the fault of the leaseholders, who never which are not difficult to understand. If we had received expected when they bought that first dream home that one of those letters and it was happening to us in our this burden might fall upon them. home, we too would be worried sick. Our constituents who are caught up in that nightmare want our help, and Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): My they need it now. constituency, like my right hon. Friend’s, has a lot of The Minister knows only too well how we got here, high-rise blocks—among the highest number in the following the terrible fire at Grenfell Tower, so I do not country.One of the major issues is getting the Government propose to go over any of that again. The Government to finance the work that needs to be done ahead of any had to act in the wake of that tragedy to change what further tragedies and fatalities, and ahead of the Budget 325WH Leaseholders and Cladding12 FEBRUARY 2020 Leaseholders and Cladding 326WH

[Rushanara Ali] advice, and that advice toughened the standards, leading to other buildings being peered at, prodded and having statement. Does my right hon. Friend agree that two bits taken off them when people discovered the problems years after the appalling, horrific tragedy of Grenfell, with HPL and other systems. Nobody knows how many the Government need to step up and create a fund so such buildings there may be, but the point is that that those works can be done, and should then go after leaseholders in buildings with other types of cladding the freeholders to make them—rather than our find themselves in exactly the same position as people constituents—pay when they are able to do so? That who are living in buildings with ACM cladding, except should be our focus and priority, as we said time and for one thing: the Government’s fund does not cover the again in the last Parliament. I hope that we do not have removal of their cladding. to keep saying this. I hope that the Government heed Secondly, the idea of differential risk is not applied our advice and make sure that the Chancellor puts by the West Yorkshire Fire and Rescue Service. It does some money into those works in the March Budget. not distinguish between different types of cladding when it issues notices that say, “This building is unsafe. Hilary Benn: I agree with my hon. Friend. When the Start a waking watch now, or you are going to have to problem of ACM cladding was first identified, the move out. Give us a plan for how you are going to Government quite properly said that it all has to come replace this cladding.” The chief fire officer of West off and be replaced. Importantly, they also said that Yorkshire fire service put it to me this Monday that however it was done, leaseholders should not have to pay. On 29 November 2018, the then Secretary of State “it is our view that there is no difference between unsafe ACM for Housing, Communities and Local Government said: cladding and unsafe HPL cladding.” “Everyone has a right to feel safe in their homes and I have Why, then, are the Government seeking to distinguish repeatedly made clear that building owners and developers must between the two when it comes to the position of replace dangerous ACM cladding. And the costs must not be leaseholders? I say to the Minister that that position is passed on to leaseholders.” completely unsustainable. I agree with that. The Secretary of State repeated that Thirdly, Ministers have rightly been adamant that point on 9 May 2019, when he said: unsafe cladding has to be removed. They have set up the “Leaseholders find themselves in this position through no fault fund and said that they are going to name and shame of their own, and this is not morally defensible.”—[Official freeholders who do not get on and do it. The latest Report, 9 May 2019; Vol. 659, c. 688.] building safety data says that 174 ACM-clad private-sector Again, I agree. It would be monstrous to expect people residential buildings are still yet to be remediated. What who are entirely blameless to pay for the mistakes and is those Ministers’ position on other types of dangerously errors of others. It has been pointed out that if our clad buildings? Are the owners of those blocks going to constituents had bought cars or washing machines that be named and shamed—and if not, why not? were a fire risk, no one would dream of saying to them, When the Secretary of State was pressed on that “Sorry, you are going to have to pay for the cost of point in the House on 20 January, he indicated that the replacement.” Their problem is that they bought the Government were considering further help. In answer home of their dreams. to my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and I acknowledge the responsible way in which some Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), he talked about the possibility freeholders, including in Leeds, have accepted that they of loans. If those loans went to the freeholders, that need to foot the bill to replace the cladding. That work might possibly be a way forward, but only if the has either been done, is in progress, or we are told it is Government could guarantee that none of the costs timetabled. However, despite the Government’s policy, would be passed on to the leaseholders; if they just got there are freeholders who have not lived up to their a bill for it through their service charge, that would responsibilities. That is why the Government eventually breach the principle that the Government set out. However, realised they could not carry on, because otherwise it was clear from the Secretary of State’s reply to my ACM cladding would not be removed. hon. Friend that he was talking about loans to leaseholders, On 9 May last year, the Government announced the because he referred to existing examples of building £200 million fund to support the removal of ACM, to owners who have provided low-interest or zero-interest protect those leaseholders from bearing the cost. There loans on a hardship basis. He went on to say: have been problems with that fund—slow disbursement, “There may be a role for the Government in ensuring that that bureaucracy and the like—that are for another debate, works, that the loans are affordable, and that it is done as quickly but I welcome that decision. It showed unreservedly as possible.”—[Official Report, 20 January 2020; Vol. 670, c. 33.] that the Government were determined to uphold the However, that would be another change of policy, principle they had established: leaseholders should not because on 9 May last year, when the then Secretary of have to pay. However, what is now happening in respect State announced the grant fund, he was specifically of buildings with other types of unsafe cladding completely asked about loans. He said: contradicts the principled position that the Government have taken until this point. “We looked at questions such as whether a loan arrangement could work but ultimately, given the complexity, the time that Why is this happening? First, the Secretary of State would have been involved and the need for all sorts of different said on 20 January that he had received advice that consents, and given that my priority is providing a sense of ACM cladding was much more dangerous than other assurance for leaseholders and getting on with this, we decided to types of cladding. Anyone who has seen the film of adopt this structure.”—[Official Report, 9 May 2019; Vol. 659, student accommodation in Bolton going up, convulsed c. 695.] in flames, might wonder whether that is the case, since By “this structure”, he meant grants. If that was the that building was covered in high pressure laminate. It view then, what has changed? Perhaps the Minister can was the Government’s review that brought in the new explain in her response. When the Secretary of State 327WH Leaseholders and Cladding12 FEBRUARY 2020 Leaseholders and Cladding 328WH talked about hardship, when leaseholders are on low pay. I see no case for treating one group of leaseholders incomes or do not have any savings, the implication was differently from another. I see no way for all the dangerous clearly that if a person does not fall into one of those cladding to be replaced other than for the Government two categories, they will bear the total cost themselves. to step in and extend the coverage of their fund to all The problem with the idea of loans is that it completely types of blocks that the fire service has identified as breaches the principle that the Government set out at unsafe. That is what is needed and it is needed urgently. the start of this crisis—and believe me, it is a crisis. That All leaseholders on whose behalf we speak today, principle was that leaseholders living in buildings with whose lives are in turmoil, will be watching very carefully unsafe cladding should not have to pay for the cost of to see how the Minister responds. They are not going its removal, because that would create two classes of anywhere—indeed they cannot, because they are trapped leaseholder: one whom the Government would seek to in their homes. All they are asking for is to be able to protect from the cost of replacing cladding, and another put this nightmare behind them, to go back to living in to whom the Government would say, “I’m terribly a safe home and to get on with their lives. Every single sorry, you’ve got to pay.” That would be completely hon. Member in this Chamber has a responsibility to unfair, which is why many of us are calling on Ministers ensure that that is what happens, and happens soon. to extend the coverage and size of the fund to all buildings with unsafe cladding of whatever type. We Several hon. Members rose— have already heard those calls today, and I am calling for that as well, because it is the only fair way forward Geraint Davies (in the Chair): That will be addressed and the only way in which the objective of removing all in three minutes by Sir Robert Neill. dangerous cladding, with which we all agree, can be achieved. 2.51 pm Unless that happens, in situations where freeholders Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): It cannot or do not find the money and leaseholders is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. clearly do not have the money, the nightmare will I congratulate the right hon. Member for Leeds Central continue. They will go on living in an unsafe building; (Hilary Benn) on securing the debate. I agree with the the only way they will be able to stay in it will be to go thrust of what he said. on and on paying for a waking watch, as the cladding The residents of Northpoint in Bromley find themselves will never be removed because there is no one to pay for caught in a similar position. They have ACM—aluminium it. Eventually, that will bankrupt them. composite material—cladding but, like many blocks, a combination of cladding is used in the system, so they Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I thank my right have HPL—high pressure laminate—cladding as well. hon. Friend for the case he has set out. Residents of the They need clarity that all the remediation and removal Lumiere building, in Manor Park in my constituency, costs will be met. tell me that there is ACM cladding on the front side of Whatever the Government’s intentions, which I accept the building and other kinds of dangerous cladding on were good, the process is continues to prove costly and the other three sides. Does it not seem particularly bureaucratic. There are still delays. It has been many absurd that Government funding can help with one months since the residents were told that they had the part of the building, but not the rest? problem, but they have still not been able to access the funds. They are having to fork out for surveys, even Hilary Benn: My right hon. Friend makes an though their flats are effectively valueless anyway. They overwhelmingly powerful case for treating all unsafe cannot raise any further equity against them, because cladding as unsafe and needing to be replaced. there is no equity any more; they cannot remortgage or The Minister has a tough job, because negotiations raise any other kind of loan against them. with the Treasury are difficult and there are complications. At the same time, the residents of the block of flats Was building control at fault originally? Can freeholders have been obliged to fork out for the costs of a waking claim on insurance or building warranties? Can they watch. So far, by requirement of the fire brigade, they sue the architects or developers for defects in the original have had to fork out nearly £120,000 between them for design or construction, assuming there is still someone the waking watch and fire alarm system, and they have to sue? Perhaps, but that will take years, and it is not an had to find that from sources other than the equity of answer. their properties. That is putting people under massive I say readily, however, that if a claim is successful and strain. the Government have paid to remove the cladding, the In consequence, people’s health is being affected, money ought to go back to the Government. I also have because they are paying £11,000 a month. There is no no problem with the Government taking equity in the sign of that ending, because it is taking so long to get freehold of buildings if they have coughed up for the any clarity as to whether they qualify—I hope to God removal of cladding. What more can the Government that they will. On the face of it, stone bonk, they do about buildings that have not yet been identified as should, but it is taking so long and every month is unsafe but where mortgage companies are asking for a another £11,000. We need to speed up the process and certificate? The EWS1 form has not solved all the make sure that the inevitable costs of the waking watch problems, so it would be good to hear from the Minister and alarms are met, because they flow directly from the what more can be done. unsafeness of the cladding. They would not have them I will bring my remarks to a close, because many hon. otherwise. Members want to speak. I see no case for Ministers to It is essential for all systems that involve dangerous move away from the principle they established at the cladding, whether ACM or HPL, to be clearly and start of the crisis: that leaseholders should not have to manifestly brought within the scope of scheme. I hope 329WH Leaseholders and Cladding12 FEBRUARY 2020 Leaseholders and Cladding 330WH

[Sir Robert Neill] There are also an untold number of leaseholders in scores of local developments unable to sell their homes that the position around insurance will also be considered, or remortgage because of the unintended impact of the because the residents’ premiums have increased massively. guidance from the Ministry of Housing, Communities The solution must surely be a grant; a loan does not and Local Government. The Minister should know seem appropriate. In many cases, the freeholders would that, although the EWS1 process has worked in some have a legal entitlement in their freehold agreements cases, in many others it has not. I have cases where large with the leaseholders to recover costs from the leaseholders, mortgage providers have rejected the form outright and so we have to get the grant to the freeholders to be sure others where forms cannot even be issued because of a that they are not out of pocket. They are the innocent lack of indemnity insurance coverage. victims. It is clear that the steps taken to date have not even I know that the Minister understands the complexity begun to address that set of interconnected problems. It of the issue and that the Government want to do the is perhaps understandable that Ministers and their officials right thing. Previous Secretaries of State were clear, but might be overwhelmed by a crisis that continues to grow there is a real risk that the good intentions that were set in scale and complexity, and baulk at the potentially out at the beginning are getting lost in a mire of bureaucracy. colossal drain on the public purse, but this crisis is not I hope that the Minister can reassure me on those going to disappear. As we have said time and again, the specific points and on how we could cut through and Government have a responsibility to act decisively to fix speed up the process. it. Ministers must start by going beyond moral suasion and compel developers to do the right thing. In cases where that does not work, they must step in to expand 2.54 pm the scope and amount of funding to remediate where Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): necessary, and oversee a nationally co-ordinated response, It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, so that nearly three years after Grenfell, we can finally Mr Davies. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the get a grip on the issue and protect leaseholders, as they Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) on securing were promised in the wake of that tragedy. this important debate and on his comprehensive overview of the problem. 2.58 pm In my constituency alone, more than 20 privately Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I am owned buildings across seven developments were found pleased to have an opportunity to speak in the debate. I to have ACM—aluminium composite material—cladding. draw hon. Members’ attention to my entry in the Register Far from meeting the Government’s target of remediating of Members’ Financial Interests. I have individuals in them all by June this year, work has been completed on my constituency who have apartments and houses with only one, Babbage Point. Although work is well under cladding problems, some of which is ACM—aluminium way at two other sites, New Capital Quay and Greenwich composite material—cladding and some of which is Square, it has not even begun on the remaining four, not not; I live in one that has an ACM problem, so I am least because of the difficulties with the application close to the issue. The problem has been well articulated, process for the private sector remediation fund. and I totally agree with the comments and the explanation When it comes to cost, in two cases—City Peninsula of the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary and the Greenwich Millennium Village—the developers Benn), which were clear. In my three minutes, therefore, have done the right thing and committed to covering I will turn to some of the things that could and should the full cost of the remedial works and the required be done differently. Clearly, it is about not just ACM interim fire safety measures. In the case of New Capital cladding. The Government need to redefine what is Quay, leaseholders are being fully protected from those covered, which must be everything that makes a building costs because the National House Building Council a fire risk. accepted a claim to pay the cost in full following an The size of the pot is too small, as I can assure the investigation. Minister from personal experience. From personal Those in other blocks, however, have not been so experience, too, the portal is impossible to use, unless fortunate. At Babbage Point, the original contractor people have experts in IT and surveying in their leasehold and building owner, Durkan, has strenuously avoided community. The Government expect exhaustion of all committing to covering the cost of the completed remedial other legal recourse, but that is expensive and timely, works should its application to the fund be unsuccessful. and most leaseholders have neither the pockets nor the It has passed on the full cost of 23 months of waking ability. The Government ought to take over those claims watch, which has been in place for so long only because so that, effectively, they give the money then take over it dragged its feet. the right to the claims against anyone they think they As we have heard, the cladding crisis now extends far can make a claim against. The Government have appointed beyond ACM cladding. My local authority has identified a regulator, which is brilliant, but we do not have the at least 24 buildings, and counting, with a type of regulations. We are trying to comply with regulations, HPL—highpressurelaminate—claddingwhereleaseholders but we do not know what they are. They need to be are likely to find themselves in protracted legal disputes expedited. between building owners and the original contractor. The timeline for the work to be done is far too short, There are an unknown number of buildings that have which I know from personal experience. The block I am serious issues with defective fire stopping and most familiar with has reached phase 2. We are required compartmentalisation, as in the Barratt Homes-constructed to give collateral warranties. While warranties are fairly Royal Artillery Quays development. Again, leaseholders standard, these are being given in favour of the Government, there are at risk of being hit with significant costs. not of the leaseholders, which seems mad. Are the 331WH Leaseholders and Cladding12 FEBRUARY 2020 Leaseholders and Cladding 332WH

Government seeking to take a lien on the property? Insurance costs have gone up for blocks around the Such warranties are normally underpinned by insurance, country, which the excellent all-party parliamentary but no insurance company will touch these with a group on leasehold and commonhold reform heard bargepole. If the Government want this to work, they about only a few weeks ago. That does not look like it is need to step in with an insurance solution. The state aid going away, and the Minister needs to look at that. forms, which have already been referred to, are difficult Insurance companies should not just get away with this. and complex. That needs to be addressed. To expect The reality of the risk is probably not as high as their every leasehold owner in every building to complete one algorithm throws up, but it is punitive for residents. is unrealistic. Shared owners are paying the whole cost, not just for The Government should step in with the banks, the bit that they own, so there is a problem with the particularly for those with existing mortgages, where shared ownership model. the banks are saying, “We will not allow you to borrow There are challenges in tracking down owners, and a more, even at the same rate for this work”—even though shortage of skills for surveys and remedial work. Has it is my security that is being affected, which is the the Migration Advisory Committee looked at the skills bank’s security. It makes no sense. At the very least, we that are needed and whether they could be urgently should require the banks to lend the money to those rushed through, so that more people could be available who already have mortgages, for a start. Likewise, for to speed up the work, which is being done on a riskier insurers—insurers will not insure anything to do with buildings first basis? cladding—the Government must step in and make it Then there is the inability to get the paperwork. Some clear that it cannot be a valid exception or exclusion. of the properties could get mortgages, but without the There is no point charging VAT, then the Government right certificate, they cannot, as my right hon. Friend paying it out again. VAT should be taken off. We should the Member for Leeds Central highlighted. There are also remember that suppliers in this market are growing too many mortgage prisoners. in number and that is putting prices up, which needs to The previous Secretary of State made a bold decision be fixed. with the ministerial direction to set up the fund to deal with ACM cladding. This Government need to be equally bold. They must make sure that bad developers do not 3.1 pm get away with it and, if they are considering loans, that Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ loans are to the developer rather than the owner, because Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, a loan increases the lack of mortgageability. Mr Davies. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the The certificate of safety would help a lot of my Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), who summarised constituents, right here, right now. If the Minister could what we would all have said, had he not covered it so reassure us on that one issue alone today, that would thoroughly. I want to focus on the costs to individuals help a lot of people right now, while we recognise that and ultimately to the taxpayer—if the Government there are bigger challenges ahead. implement a bailout—and to highlight the impact on many of my constituents. 3.4 pm It is fair to say that after the Grenfell fire, Hackney Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): The right hon. Member was relatively unscathed, despite having a large number for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) has been a powerful of tower blocks, because aluminium composite material advocate today for many of my constituents. He said cladding affected a few blocks, but not many. However, exactly what they and I feel. One of the first surgeries I the new rules have affected so many of my constituents. held as a newly elected Member of Parliament was with I declare an interest, as I am a leaseholder myself. All some individuals who have been impacted by this issue, my cladding is being removed and, happily, my developer who feel that their lives have been destroyed. The is footing the entire bill, although no doubt my property Government need to be aware that I will not hold back is worth nothing at the moment. I argue not for myself in doing absolutely everything I can to fight for them. I but for the many constituents who are not in as fortunate will be a lion in fighting for their interests and I will not a position as I am. stop until their interests are looked after. The costs mount up. There are the survey costs. I echo some of the earlier points. Most of us can Hackney Council has been given £88,000 for data collection, agree on two key points. The first is to go after the which has got to cover more than 200 council blocks. It freeholders, not the leaseholders. In the block in Ipswich, is inadequate. There are survey costs for all building St Francis Tower, with 116 flats over 17 storeys, the owners, which fall on the leaseholders. There is the cost freeholder who put in the cladding is not the same as of remedial work, some of which needs to happen the current freeholder. The cladding is high pressure immediately—for example, new fire alarms in individual laminate, not aluminium composite material, but my flats and in corridors. That work has to happen before constituents cannot understand why a type of cladding removing waking watch can even be considered, and we that was said to impose an intolerable risk to life after have heard about the costs of waking watch. an inquiry is being treated in a different way to ACM cladding. There are the hugely increased mortgage costs. One constituent tells me: James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con): I congratulate “I can neither re-mortgage or sell my flat. I am currently stuck my hon. Friend on his passion for his constituents. paying a variable rate mortgage, and am paying £800 more a Some constituents of mine own a leasehold property in month than necessary.” that block in Ipswich. Is it not incredible that the That is on top of the other costs around waking watch cladding that my hon. Friend refers to is far more and so on. dangerous than the cladding used on Grenfell Tower? 333WH Leaseholders and Cladding12 FEBRUARY 2020 Leaseholders and Cladding 334WH

Tom Hunt: Absolutely. I completely agree. I have talked about the problems with the practicalities, Communication from the block management company but my constituents live with the knowledge that the has been pretty poor, and has inflamed the anxiety and place they are trapped in, which costs them a fortune, tension. Residents have received letters saying that they might be a death trap. As a child who grew up in a flat in are required to pay between £21,000 and £24,000. The the shadow of Ronan Point, I know the impact of such value of their properties has collapsed, and it is now at fear on families. So I want to hear from the Minister the stage where the amount they are being asked to pay today that the Government will intervene strongly to is about one third of the value of the properties. The exorcise the spectre of the tragedy of Grenfell that issue is hanging over them. As the right hon. Member constantly hangs over my constituents’ lives. for Leeds Central said, they feel trapped. I ask the Government to appreciate the position of 3.10 pm my constituents. More than 100 constituents are affected Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): in that block, and perhaps there are others. I ask the It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Government to take steps to make sure that the £200 million Mr Davies. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the fund that was set up to support those who live in flats Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) on securing with ACM cladding is extended to provide support for this debate. I associate myself with all the powerful my constituents. The cladding has exactly the same arguments that he has made on behalf of his and impact, and there is no logical reason why they should indeed all of our constituents this afternoon. be treated any differently to those who live in properties with ACM cladding. I represent hundreds of people affected by the cladding issues, including in the Islington Gates development in I repeat the key principles: we must go after the the Jewellery Quarter area of my constituency. The freeholders, not the leaseholders, and we must have 144-unit development has already had remedial work fairness in the way that individuals are treated. I beg the carried out. Residents pay for a waking watch and Government to stand up for my constituents in the way lighting upgrades, and at the moment structural fire that the right hon. Member for Leeds Central has—and resilience work is being carried out, including around that I hope I have—today. fire compartmentalisation. The work is estimated to come in at a total of £1.5 million—about £5,000 per 3.7 pm leaseholder—and that is before they get to the cladding Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): It is an absolute removal. They are trapped by the same problem that pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. many of our constituents have. They have non-ACM This is an extraordinary issue that is causing terrible cladding, but it is just as dangerous, if not more so, than problems to many constituents and I am sorry that I the ACM cladding that qualifies for Government relief. will not have the time in this debate to do their cases The bill for the removal of ACM cladding looks as justice. though it will come in at about £5 million to £6 million, I am currently dealing with 31 separate cases, and so each leaseholder faces a bill of about £40,000 to counting. One of those cases involves representing £50,000. 57 different constituents in a single block. One local On the point about insurance, the premium for the housing provider has told residents they will fund just building in the previous year was £36,000, but when 20 fire risk assessments a year, in an area where it has residents came to renew they found their insurer would more than 100 properties. When I say 100 properties, I not renew the building on its own, so the residents had do not mean 100 flats—I mean 100 blocks. to go through a broker and a huge amount of stress, In so many cases, my constituents have been left trouble and difficulty to find a consortium of five trapped and powerless. Many do not know if their insurers willing to share the risk of insuring the building, homes are safe. Many have been unable to sell or and the premium has now come in at £190,000, a re-mortgage. Massively expensive retrofitting is often fivefold increase. It seems residents have received no necessary but is not being carried out. credit for the fact that they have carried out a huge amount of remedial work already. No matter what One constituent is living with his young daughter in a people trapped in such buildings do, the insurance one-bed flat. He cannot sell or move somewhere more companies are running scared. suitable because his block does not yet have a cladding report. Another constituent split with his partner and The Government could take action, as they have in cannot re-mortgage to make good that separation. The areas affected by flooding, for example. We already current mortgage has expired, trapping the couple on a have the good example of the Flood Re scheme. The higher rate, and costing an exorbitant extra £450 a Government should stand behind our leasehold constituents month. It is causing severe financial and emotional and force the insurance companies to act. It is strain. Another constituent was told it could take five unconscionable that such buildings might in the end be years to provide the cladding report. uninsurable without Government action. Our constituents are hit with a multiple whammy, where tens of thousands Something is desperately and fundamentally wrong of flat dwellers are uninsured, unable to sell or re-mortgage, with the whole legal structure around the issue, and it is and unable to find the money to put their unsafe our job in this place to put it right. My speech today has buildings right, and that has a huge impact on people. I not allowed me long enough to do justice to constituents’ will quote from a constituent’s email: cases; I hope they will forgive me. The Minister can see “Estimates are very loose at the moment but it is likely I will how many of us there are in this room. She knows the have to pay in the region of...£80,000 to £100,000. I can’t sleep, issues. Can she not make some time available for us to function or work. I try to be normal with my son but I can’t. I be able to debate this in a full-length debate on the have a constant gut wrenching dread coursing through my blood Floor of the House? stream each and every second. I want to cry.” 335WH Leaseholders and Cladding12 FEBRUARY 2020 Leaseholders and Cladding 336WH

Real people with real lives are affected by a national In just a couple of months I have had many cases calamity. It is morally imperative that the Government brought to my attention by constituents who have been finally step up to the plate and act. unable to sell or re-mortgage. Some have been unable to get the safety certificates that they need from their 3.13 pm freeholders, and they pay really expensive service charges. The leaseholders feel trapped in their homes, unable to Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I congratulate my right move, while facing the constant fear that the home hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary where they live might catch fire. How can anybody sleep Benn) on securing this debate and on his excellent at night knowing that such a risk lies over their head? speech. I do not intend to go over the points he made, None of us could. but I want to bring some details to the attention of the Minister and describe how the issue affects my constituents, It is nearly three years since the Grenfell disaster because not only cities are affected; towns such as alerted the whole country to the dangers of combustible Runcorn in my constituency are also affected. I want to cladding, and almost a year and a half since the talk about the Decks development, which consists of six Government banned ACM cladding on new high rises, individual blocks of flats. so there has been plenty of time for remediation and to see plans put in place and the combustible cladding The Decks was built in 2007. Three blocks are seven- removed. storey and three are six-storey, so they do not meet the definition of high-rise premises. They are clad in high- It is right that the Government have opened a pressure laminate—HPL. I want the Minister to understand £200 million fund for private sector blocks to remove how that has affected my constituents. A building survey cladding. To date, of the 56 tower blocks in London identified the following: sections of the external walls of that fall within the scope of the funding, only 10 have each building are fitted with cladding that will support submitted plans to get the initial costs covered, and fire spread; there are cavities behind the cladding systems none has submitted full cost plans. The fund is therefore that do not have the required cavity barriers or fire not working. As a result, no money has been distributed stopping to prevent vertical and horizontal fire spread; to any of the buildings in scope in London nearly a year the structural timber frame is exposed within the external after the scheme started. We really need the Government wall cavities; the external wall cavity is open to the to take urgent action to fix the funding system. ground floor car park, permitting fire spread into it in The Government can and should do things to help the case of a car fire. make the system fairer. They could provide technical support to block owners who are not used to dealing Specific fire safety concerns were raised: there is a with large remediation projects. They are not building risk of rapid fire spread over the external cladding of technicians or surveyors; they are residents living in each building; a risk of rapid fire spread through the their homes. Why do they have to deal with this? We cavities behind the cladding; and a risk of fire spread could look at helping the people who struggle to get from the car parks to the cladding systems and cavities. complex applications off the ground. Ultimately, if the The car park cannot be used, so people cannot park Government have no trust in the private sector to make their cars. There is also a risk of early structural collapse the leaseholders feel safe in their properties, they need if the supporting timber frame, which I just referred to, to give local authorities the powers to confiscate the is affected by fire, and a risk that the escape route could blocks and carry out the works themselves. I hope the be compromised. There is a massive human cost. It is a Minister agrees that the matter is not one of ideology nightmare and causes stress to the people living there. and us making complaints on behalf of our leaseholders. Many of my constituents are in negative equity. The It is a matter of life and death for many of our leaseholders, 266 homes are unsellable and not rentable. Constituents so I urge the Government to fund the work properly. have been advised it will cost them around £30,000 per household to remedy the issue. They do not have that 3.19 pm sort of money. They are worried they will be bankrupted and lose their homes and become homeless. It is through Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): It no fault of their own as they bought their homes in is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. good faith according to the regulations that applied at I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for the time. Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) on securing the debate, and pay tribute to the work that he has done so far. I It is important that the Government really tackle the want to put on the record my co-chairmanship of the issue, and they can do that only by setting up a fund to all-party parliamentary group on leasehold and make the buildings safe and comply with the regulations commonhold reform, and the fact that I am a patron of now. Leaseholders are not to blame and should not the Leasehold Knowledge Partnership, which brings its bear the cost. My constituents should not be treated expertise to the all-party group and to the many people differently simply because the cladding is HPL. left high and dry as a result of the scandal. 3.16 pm Indeed, I wonder who people would have turned to if the LKP had not been there. It has heard, as we have, Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op): It is an from many leaseholders up and down the country who honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I have been placed in an impossible position—unable to thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds pay for remedial work or obtain finance for it, and Central (Hilary Benn) for securing this really important unable to sell their home until the work is done. They debate, which affects our constituents across the country. have been left stranded and effectively abandoned. In my short time as the MP for Vauxhall, I have been The debate may be technical and at times slightly made acutely aware of how big a problem the issue is legalistic, but at the heart of it are people such as those for leaseholders in privately rented and owned buildings. we have heard about today, who are looking for a bit of 337WH Leaseholders and Cladding12 FEBRUARY 2020 Leaseholders and Cladding 338WH

[Justin Madders] months, to-ing and fro-ing between the builders, solicitors and mortgage company to try to find out why there is a leadership and hope. There is clearly a tension between delay, because until he gets things sorted out his life is what the Government consider to be the moral case for on hold. It appears that the block does not have ACM, not passing remediation costs on to leaseholders, and but possibly HPL—he is not getting straight answers. the legal position, by which freeholders may be entitled Secondly, the Paragon development jointly built by to recover costs from the leaseholder. Berkeley First and Notting Hill housing association Although the Government’s pledges so far have to a some years ago was featured in Private Eye. After many significant extent removed the potential liability for years in which the residents faced damp, Notting Hill some, there are still costs that can be visited on the Genesis opened up the cavities behind the walls and leaseholder—and not just in relation to ACM cladding. found a range of problems, including lack of horizontal There is a lack of clarity about other types of cladding and vertical barriers—something that other hon. Members and about who is responsible for the many waking have mentioned—and cladding problems in particular. watches that have now become necessary.At the moment What is worse is that the scaffolding went up over a year there are serious doubts about whether the private fund ago, and work stopped not long afterwards. Two building is being utilised properly, or at all. Applications continue companies have gone bust. The residents—the leaseholders; to be processed, but we do not know how much, if any, they are shared owners—have been living with their of the fund has been spent. Crucially, we do not know flats exposed to the elements, apart from a sheet of what will happen to those sites where no application has wood, for months. There are also the security issues of been made at all. having scaffolding outside the windows. There are It should be clear that the longer it takes to resolve 700 students living in the other blocks on that estate, the issues, the more innocent leaseholders will have to who, given the fire in the student block in Bolton, face pay out to fund the waking watches.That means thousands the same fear. of pounds, needlessly spent, that they will probably Finally,there is a large development in my constituency, never get back. Statements from Ministers are not enough. built by a volume house builder, and three or four of the Talk about morality is not enough. Saying that there is blocks were transferred under a long lease, or a head a strong expectation on freeholders to put matters right lease, to a housing association. It now turns out that the is not enough. There is a lottery at the moment. Depending cladding on those blocks is dubious, and possibly ACM. on the insurance company, the freeholder, the developer, The shared owners and social rent tenants living in the terms of the lease and the type of cladding involved, those blocks live in fear and uncertainty. The buck is any outcome is possible. It seems to me, and probably to continually passed between the housing association and most people in the Chamber, that in the absence of the developer whose responsibility it is to pay for the someone stepping forward to put matters right, if a problem. property was built in accordance with the regulations at I concur with many of my colleagues here today. The the time, but is now considered unsafe, that must ultimately Government must take responsibility for the problem be the responsibility of the Government. that existed in the first place—the building regulations My all-party parliamentary group co-chair is the and the fire regulations that were inadequate, despite Father of the House, the hon. Member for Worthing warnings from previous fires. Think of the residents, West (Sir Peter Bottomley), who unfortunately cannot who not only face the costs and cannot sell and move be with us today. He joins me in that analysis and says: on, but who live in fear that they could be the victims of “We have been grateful for the initiative of the Select Committee the next fire. and we ask them to hold hearings—leaseholders’ voices must be heard. Government and parliament have imminent work to do. That is the way to justice. See the evil. Do good. Recognise the 3.25 pm people speaking through the Leasehold Knowledge Partnership.” Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): It is a pleasure to We need to hear those leaseholders’ voices. The LKP serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I congratulate recently did a survey of 117 different sites where people my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central are affected by the issues, and the findings are stark: (Hilary Benn) and all those from across the country 90% of people surveyed said that the Government had who have spoken in the debate to show what strength of provided “No help at all”. That has to change, and very feeling there is. I want to join them, to represent my soon. many constituents who feel just as strongly. Their lives are a misery because of the situation—surely an unforeseen 3.22 pm result from a fund that is meant to save lives and to be a Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab): It is a good thing for people across the country. Actually it has pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. led to dreadful circumstances for residents. Time is short, and other hon. Members have covered To add to the stories we have heard, I will mention many of the issues that I wanted to raise—particularly the leaseholders of 66 and 200 flats respectively at two my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central buildings in my constituency—the Swish building and (Hilary Benn), who dealt with the overall issues so well. the Riverside Quarter. They have been told by their I just want to say a little about some examples I have freeholder that the cladding and other fire safety measures encountered. in the building—the cladding is either not ACM, or it is A man who came to my surgery lives in a relatively a mixture between ACM and HPL—do not now meet new block. He has got a job in Scotland and therefore the standard that the Government regard as adequate needed to move from west London, and wanted to sell for the issue of a fire safety certificate, and that recladding his flat. He discovered that the people he was going to is needed. To their horror, they have been told that they sell to could not get a mortgage. He has been waiting for need to foot the bill for the work, which comes to tens of 339WH Leaseholders and Cladding12 FEBRUARY 2020 Leaseholders and Cladding 340WH thousands of pounds. They have not been told exactly cladding. We also have issues over which the UK how much the cost is, but they believe it is between Government have had an influence but have not had the £50,000 and £80,000 per flat. best communication with the Scottish Government. That raises a few issues, the first of which is safety. If The Scottish Government have ended up with a problem the current cladding does not meet the safety requirements not of their making that they are struggling to put right. for a safety certificate, are the blocks safe? As we have Finance and insurance are obviously reserved to heard today, different blocks are being treated differently. Westminster, and the Scottish Government have limited The fire regulations are not up to scratch. Another issue influence on the actions of mortgage companies, banks is fairness. Tomake leaseholders foot the bill is outrageous. and insurers. They are not multi-million pound landlords, by any I turn first to advice note 14, which pertains to fire stretch. They are normal people trying to live their lives, safety in buildings post Grenfell. It was introduced and they do not have £50,000 lying around. The situation following very limited consultation with the Scottish is taking a huge emotional toll. Government, which means mortgage lenders now insist that cladded properties over 18 metres high have specific Meg Hillier: My hon. Friend is right to raise the documentation to evidence how well they comply with unfair cost to leaseholders, which we have all highlighted. safety standards. Most properties built in Scotland in Does she agree that, as the taxpayer could ultimately the past five years comply with the safety standards set foot the bill, we should make sure that dodgy developers, out by the Scottish Government. Our fire standards and or those who will not step up to the mark, do not get building regs are better and more comprehensive than away with a situation where the taxpayer bails people those in England, so we do not have a problem of the out just because they will not pay? scale that right hon. and hon. Members have identified. Without the requisite certification, however,people cannot Fleur Anderson: I absolutely agree. There has to be a meet the new standards now being imposed by lenders. way to make the fund easy to use and urgently accessible, As a result, surveyors who have been instructed to so that it is not held up for a long time in red tape, and compile home reports—it is a routine exercise when the right people have to foot the bill. I argue that the properties are sold or remortgaged in Scotland—have Government need to extend the cladding fund to all found that they have been imposed with nil valuations. types of unsafe cladding. That is what it is there for. Constituents across the country, including many in As to the emotional toll, one person said: my constituency of Glasgow Central, have spoken in “The net result for me is that I will lose my home, as I cannot terms similar to those used by right hon. and hon. sell it, or raise a mortgage to finance repairs because it is unsellable Members: about not being able to sell their properties and I am unemployed, and therefore will lose my lease.” or to remortgage. As right hon. and hon. Members have He will become homeless as a result. Another resident mentioned, in some cases house sales have fallen through, told me that his flat is unsaleable and effectively worthless. leaving residents out of pocket. It was bought in 2004 in good faith in the belief that it The hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth was a safe home. The fact that it is now considered to Cadbury) described how somebody could not take up a have the problems in question is not of his making: job. I know of somebody who had arranged to move to “We cannot afford to pay a sum of this size on top of the Poland with his Polish wife, but their house sale fell existing service charge”. through at the last minute. All the arrangements had In summary, I am as shocked as everyone else here. I been made to move to Poland, but they now cannot sell hope that the Minister will urgently tell us some good their home and are stuck. Despite the vast majority of news. Three years after Grenfell, my constituents are properties being certified by council building control being asked to fork out huge sums of money for a departments, many surveyors refuse to commit to a building that ultimately they do not own—a point that valuation without seeing specific certification on the relates back to the leaseholder crisis. No leaseholder cladding. should have to pay for the work in question, or experience such huge stress and uncertainty. An urgent response is In response, the Scottish Government have written to needed. I join those who are asking for the cladding the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local fund to be urgently extended to all forms of unsafe Government four times: on 18 October, 8 November, cladding. 19 December and again on 27 January. As far as I am aware, that correspondence has not yet been formally Geraint Davies (in the Chair): I thank Members for responded to, which is completely unacceptable. I hope their collective discipline in time management, which the Minister will address this issue, if she can. The has given us just over half an hour for the Front-Bench correspondence from the Scottish Government underlined speakers. their willingness to work in collaboration to find a suitable solution that works for the particular set of circumstances in Scotland, but we do not seem to have 3.29 pm got very far. The Scottish Government have highlighted Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): It is a that, although they appreciate that MHCLG has introduced pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Davies. I congratulate the EWS1 form to bring about a resolution, it relies in you on your expert chairing of the debate, which has some respects on a tenure system that does not exist in allowed many Members to have their say. I will try to Scotland. That needs to be addressed. limit my comments so that Members can intervene on My constituents have raised their concerns about a the Minister, if required. number of properties in Glasgow Central, including I approach the debate from a slightly different angle, Lancefield Quay, which was built in phases and has because we do not have the leaseholder/freeholder issue different issues across those phases. The right hon. in Scotland, although we have continuing issues with Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) talked about 341WH Leaseholders and Cladding12 FEBRUARY 2020 Leaseholders and Cladding 342WH

[Alison Thewliss] multiple occasions in the Chamber. The Budget is coming up, and there is an opportunity to remove VAT from having different types of cladding on a single building, sprinkler systems, cladding and house repair systems. If which highlights that the whole building, rather than the Government were to do that, it would be a huge just one type of cladding, needs to be considered. help to people who want to get work done quickly. My constituent Lisa Jamie Murray has been working incredibly hard to highlight the situation at the Templeton Geraint Davies (in the Chair): We now have the pleasure Building next to Glasgow green, because there is non- of listening to my old friend from Croydon Central, compliant ACM on the top two floors alone. As far as I Sarah Jones. am aware, it was compliant at the time of construction 3.37 pm and conformed to the regs in place when the building warrant was obtained, but it seems that some of these Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure things have been missed over time. There has also been to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and I a change to the building, which means that there is congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for essentially a line of cladding up its side that would act Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) on securing what is clearly almost as a chimney. If there were a fire at the bottom an incredibly important debate. We could spend many of the building, it would scoot up the outside of the hours talking about leaseholders and cladding, which building and on to the top, which is terrifying. reflects the scale of the problem right across the country. It has been incredibly difficult for the residents of the building to ascertain who is responsible for the cladding. As right hon. and hon. Members would expect, I Is it the original developer, or somebody who made the spend quite a lot of time talking to leaseholders, whether changes in between times? Do the residents now have to through the all-party parliamentary group on leasehold take this up and face the costs that right hon. and hon. reform, the Leasehold Knowledge Partnership or the Members have mentioned? It is incredibly difficult to UK Cladding Action Group. I have had the privilege of make sure that we can reach a solution. It is very talking to many of them about some of the issues they important, particularly because this is based at Glasgow face. As has been articulated so well, these are lives that green and there are lots of events there; it is a very busy have been turned upside down completely due to issues part Glasgow. for which they bear no fault. What they bear is the cost, I turn to some of the issues raised by advice note 14. anxiety and stress. Their lives are on hold, and it is Right hon. and hon. Members have hinted at some of incredibly upsetting for everyone who has been involved. the issues with inspections needing to be carried out by It has been nearly a thousand days since the Grenfell a qualified certificated body, and there are capacity Tower fire, and since then we have had two Prime issues in the industry. As the hon. Member for Hackney Ministers, three Secretaries of State and four Housing South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) mentioned, perhaps Ministers—everything but a partridge in a pear tree. We we need to consider bringing more experts into the might have another reshuffle tomorrow. Hopefully we country to address that. We could make adjustments to will not, because we want the Ministers and the Secretary immigration as well, because the industry does not have of State to stay and fix some of the problems. the people to do this. Time is pressing and money is a Most of the issues have been explained well in the factor, and we need to find a way to reach that point. debate, so I will focus on some particular questions to The new consulted advice note, issued in January, the Minister. If she does not have time to answer them introduced a fundamental change because it applies to all today, it would be great if she could write back to us. all multi-storey and multi-occupied buildings, including My first point is about the remediation of ACM cladding, those under 18 metres, which brings a whole load of which has been talked about a lot. We know that nine in extra buildings into scope. Inside Housing highlights 10 private blocks with Grenfell-style cladding are still the increased burden, saying: covered with such cladding. “Compliance with the advice note and recovering costs both require expert evidence from a limited pool of fire engineers and Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab): There are still forensic architects, and place an additional administrative and several blocks with flammable ACM cladding. My financial burden on building owners.” constituents at Sesame Apartments in Battersea are still What is the Minister doing to meet the challenge? living in a building that is wrapped in unsafe cladding. Without the adequate people to do that, we will be Does my hon. Friend agree that the Minister should waiting for a long time. give us some definitive deadlines for when those private Listening to residents is fundamentally important. blocks will be made safe? Dame Judith Hackitt mentioned that the Scottish Government have listened well to residents in order to Sarah Jones: I completely agree. forge their response. The Scottish Government’s Fire Safety Committee is still meeting and taking on concerns. We know that 75 private block owners do not even I ask the Minister to listen closely to MPs and residents have a plan in place to remove this cladding. Will the right across the country, and to bring a response that Minister confirm that, as the Secretary of State promised meets those needs. It is clear that the fund being set up is on 20 January, the Government will name all block far from adequate. It is far from being wide enough in owners who fail to put a plan in place by the end of what it encompasses, and the Minister needs to consider January? Will she publish those names in tomorrow’s expanding it very soon so that people can get on with building safety update? the work. The Government’s £200 million fund for ACM removal Lastly, I echo the words of the hon. Member for on private blocks is nine months old, yet just a single Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris), who called for a block has so far been accepted for funds, and none has VAT exemption. I have asked for a VAT exemption on been made safe as a result of the fund. Labour has for 343WH Leaseholders and Cladding12 FEBRUARY 2020 Leaseholders and Cladding 344WH years called on the Government to legislate to ensure Sarah Jones: That is absolutely correct. There is a that building owners cannot pass costs on to innocent whole raft of areas in which different evidence is gathered leaseholders. Even with the £200 million fund, leaseholders and different work needs to be done. There are questions are still exposed to risk, because state aid rules mean about all those things. We do not know whether the that fund payments are capped at ¤200,000 per property. people doing waking watch are doing it properly and As the Mayor of London and the National Housing are properly trained. We are spending money on things Federation said, the fact that the fund covers only ACM that we are not sure about. The lack of people doing cladding creates a two-tier system. Will the Minister those jobs is an important issue. explain what protections she is putting in place to The announcement on 20 December that the height ensure that leaseholders are not handed the bill in the limit for removing ACM had shifted from 18 metres to event that remediation costs exceed the state aid cap? 11 metres means that there are potentially thousands What is she doing to protect leaseholds in blocks with more blocks implicated in the cladding scandal than other forms of dangerous cladding from being unfairly originally thought. That means that tens of thousands passed those costs? more leaseholders, who previously thought their blocks were safe, have now discovered that work needs to be Research from Labour revealed last year that up to done and that the Government do not deem their 600,000 people are now stuck in unsellable flats because building safe. Additional safety requirements are welcome, of flawed Government guidance relating to advice note 14, but when it comes to building safety, it is unclear why which is compounded by the failure to publish the the Government took two and a half years to decide Government’s tests into suspect non-ACM cladding. In that buildings between 11 metres and 18 metres were recent weeks, new advice has been issued, and a new equally unsafe. Will the Minister clarify why they took form from the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors— so long to determine that blocks of that height should the EWS1 form—for buildings whose cladding status is also have their cladding removed? Does the Department uncertain. In spite of those changes, in the past few know how many residential blocks of between 11 metres days I, like others, have dealt with constituents who and 18 metres exist across the country? How many are have been able to complete their sale. One constituent is covered in Grenfell-style cladding? If the Government facing major delays and bills over the work that she has do not know how many blocks are covered, is there a been told needs to be done. Will the Minister give some plan in place to collect and publish that information, as clarity on how many sales are still being held up, how has been done with blocks of 18 metres and above? many EWS1 forms have successfully been signed off, and what the Government are doing to ensure that For two and a half years, we have had a merry-go-round leaseholders are not being ripped off for those forms? of buck passing, and hundreds of thousands of people across the country are suffering as a result. It is disappointing Interim measures such as waking watch, which other that the Secretary of State was not asked about this hon. Members have mentioned, were put in place after more when he was doing the media rounds at the Grenfell as a very temporary measure before remediation weekend, and that we have not seen more action. It is works were undertaken. However, nearly 1,000 days on, also disappointing that the Government are not engaging leaseholders are still paying exorbitant costs—thousands with leaseholders. A meeting in London was recently of pounds per year—as a direct consequence of the organised by the Leasehold Knowledge Partnership, Government’s failure to hold building owners to account and 100 leaseholders were there. They were asked whether and make their blocks safe. What plans does the Minister they have had regular engagement with Ministers, and have to ensure that leaseholders who cannot afford to not a single hand went up. We need to talk to people so continue paying the costs are supported? we can understand the issues that they are facing. On non-ACM and data collection, ACM is the tip of If the Government are serious about the claims and the iceberg. High-pressure laminate and other forms of pledges they made in the days and weeks following the cladding are just as dangerous and should be removed. Grenfell Tower fire, about their role in keeping people However, two years on, Ministers have failed to audit safe, about their commitment to homeowners, and about residential blocks, so we still do not know how many the principle that leaseholders should not be paying, it blocks are covered in HPL or other types of potentially is time to act. I know this is difficult. It is a very big lethal cladding. Ministers promised that that work would problem, and it will be very complicated to solve. If the be completed by March this year, but an Inside Housing Government act and do the right thing, the Opposition investigation report revealed that 70% of blocks remain would thank them very much for doing so. uninspected, meaning that it is virtually impossible to reach that deadline. It is ridiculous that the Government have often shifted their deadline on publication of the Geraint Davies (in the Chair): I now invite the Minister non-ACM test results. Will the Minister today commit to answer all those questions. She has about 12 minutes, to a date for the publication of the tests, or explain to us and perhaps she can allow a minute or so for Hilary the reason for the delay? Benn at the end.

3.46 pm Meg Hillier: Does not the delay in getting the data in speak to the lack of expertise available? I spoke to one The Minister for Housing (Esther McVey): It is a real of my housing associations at the end of last week, and pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. it is having to assess its buildings in risk order. Many I thank the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary people in not so risky buildings will never get the work Benn) for bringing this issue to Westminster Hall, and done to get the necessary paperwork—the data—to get all the Members who have attended. This debate has a mortgage, which is also important for the property shown MPs at their very best, bringing issues, cases, owners. concerns and dilemmas to the Chamber and expressing 345WH Leaseholders and Cladding12 FEBRUARY 2020 Leaseholders and Cladding 346WH

[Esther McVey] know that they will not have to wait years for the issue to be resolved. Can she give our constituents any comfort what needs to be said here on behalf of their constituents. today? Members on both sides of the House want to be here to voice those concerns. Esther McVey: I started my speech with the Secretary We all know that this issue causes much stress and of State’s remarks about what we are doing, the actions anguish to residents. How do we support everybody? that we have taken, and how we will deliver going People can appreciate that issues are evolving as time forward. I want to ensure that people understand the goes on. We also understand that it is not the fault of rigorous work of the expert panel and the advice that the leaseholders who bought their homes that things we are taking from it. That work is checked and verified, have happened. We all understand that anybody could and we are taking it forward at the right pace. Of be one of those leaseholders; this is happening to so course, we are here to discuss those issues, which are many. I praise what MPs are doing today in bringing being dealt with—negotiations are ongoing. What the this issue forward. issue absolutely impresses upon us is how important it is that things are done as quickly and as thoroughly as Dr Offord: Some of my constituents purchased properties possible. under Help to Buy, so the Government certainly have a claim in this. How much of that responsibility will fall Paul Blomfield: As chair of the all-party parliamentary on the Treasury? group on students, I wrote to the Secretary of State about HPL cladding after the Bolton fire. After two Esther McVey: That is a very well made point. In months, I had received no response. I raised it with him January, the Secretary of State said that we are currently on the Floor of the House and he promised me an early considering options with the Treasury on the support response on 20 January, which I still have not received. that can go to leaseholders. Those are obviously ongoing Will the Minister give us some assurance about when conversations and negotiations, and I can go no further the work on the risks of HPL cladding will conclude? than that today. Do the Government recognise that ACM cladding, about which colleagues on both sides of the House have Sir Robert Neill: I understand that, but the Minister raised concerns, presents exactly the same issues as HPL? will understand that people at Northpoint are forking out £11,000 for every month that the conversations go Esther McVey: I will take that message back to the on. They have to be brought to an end, and something Department and see what happened with the must happen soon. correspondence from the Secretary of State. I know that the Department replied to the letter from the hon. Esther McVey: I thank my hon. Friend for making Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) on that point. As I said, MPs from both side of the House 6 February, so if she has not already got it, it will be are raising these issues. The fire risk of tall buildings with her shortly. with cladding was brought to everybody’s attention after the terrible tragedy of Grenfell Tower. It had not Paul Blomfield: Can the Minister say when that work been brought to people’s attention before. will be completed?

Ruth Cadbury: With the deepest respect to the Minister, Esther McVey: I will go through exactly what we have these issues were raised and recommendations made to done and how we have done it, and note the significant the Government at the inquests into both the Lakanal steps that we have taken, including the provision of House fire in south London, which took the lives of six £600 million to support people and the further work residents, and the fire in Southampton, which took the led by an expert panel. We have accepted all the lives of firefighters. Grenfell would not have happened recommendations from the independent review, and are had the recommended building standards been put going forward at a rigorous pace, which we can do, place. obviously, once we have had all those negotiations with the Treasury. Esther McVey: The Government took immediate action In December 2018, we banned the use of combustible straight after the report. The actions that we took materials in external walls of new high-rise buildings included a comprehensive independent review of building and, after implementing the ban, we checked its effectiveness. safety, chaired by Dame Judith Hackitt, and we have In January, we launched a consultation on the ban, accepted all the recommendations of her independent which went further and asked whether the limit should review. We will continue to bring forward legislation to be lowered from 18 metres to 11 metres. The Government deliver an enhanced safety regime for high-rise residential also announced the fire safety Bill, and the associated buildings. As we announced last month, we will begin regulatory changes, to deliver the recommendations of immediately to establish the new building safety regulator— the Grenfell inquiry phase 1 report. initially in shadow form, pending legislation—which Dame Judith will chair, to oversee the transition to the Ms Lyn Brown: I thank the Minister for the extensive new regime. detail that she is giving, but will she address the gentle point that I made? Even if the Minister had another five Meg Hillier: The Minister has paid tribute to MPs for minutes, that would not be enough to address all the doing their best and for showing the best of MPs. What issues, many of which have not been raised simply we hoped for was the best of the Minister, doing the because of a lack of time. Will the Government consider best by our constituents. Although we recognise the giving us a proper full-length debate in the main Chamber action that the Government took after the Grenfell fire, so that we can better express ourselves and hear more our residents need some assurance and action, so they comprehensively from the Minister? 347WH Leaseholders and Cladding12 FEBRUARY 2020 Leaseholders and Cladding 348WH

Esther McVey: The hon. Lady makes a good point. Esther McVey: It is absolutely imperative that we We need more time to discuss the matter—this is only a have people with the right skills who are able to do the 90-minute debate—and the number of hon. Members job straight away. who are here shows that. Not only should we have that debate, but we should come together to raise those Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab): Does the Minister points and work in a constructive fashion. The hon. agree that we need to hear more not just about how Lady is quite right; 90 minutes is not long enough. We great it is that we have all come to discuss these things, also need to, and we will, write back to the hon. but about concrete actions? Some of my constituents in Members present, because I cannot give a comprehensive Ilford South, including the 100 people in Raphael House, response to everybody in the time that I have. have mental health issues and problems planning their futures and getting their kids into schools, because Marsha De Cordova: I take the Minister’s point about freeholders essentially have them over a barrel. The ensuring that we all get to express ourselves so she can time has come to stop the platitudes and take some hear our concerns. It is glaringly obvious from much of action. the engagement that leaseholders do not believe that they are being listened to or heard by Ministers. Will the Esther McVey: The Government took the unprecedented Minister commit to meeting leaseholders and some of step of bringing forward £600 million to support the my constituents so that she can hear at first hand their people whom the expert panel said were in the most concerns about their homes being wrapped in unsafe dangerous buildings with ACM cladding. I started my cladding? speech with the words of the Secretary of State, who spoke about how we can ensure that we have the right Esther McVey: The Department has met leaseholders, support at the right place and at the right time. From and we have received and replied to letters from leaseholders. the very start, we have taken the advice of experts in the The hon. Lady is right: we have to have a bigger field to ensure that we are supporting the leaseholders. consultation and ensure that we meet leaseholders. Yesterday, Lord Younger met a group, some of whom 3.59 pm are in the Public Gallery. It is imperative that we hear Hilary Benn: I thank all colleagues for the force and from the people who are most affected, and I absolutely clarity of their arguments. It is no good pretending that agree that we should. the leaseholders listening to the debate will not be very Meg Hillier: Will the Minister give way? disappointed by the response that they have heard. I hope that the Minister will go back to the conversations Esther McVey: Time is short—the right hon. Member with the Treasury and say, “Blimey, we’re in a bit of a for Leeds Central might like a minute or so at the mess here—MPs on all sides of the House are not going end—but I will take any further interventions. to go away,” because we will be back. The Budget is Meg Hillier: Will the Minister tell us whether she has coming up, and I hope that on that day, we will hear spoken to—or will speak to—the Migration Advisory what the Government will do to ensure that leaseholders Committee about ensuring that we have the right skills do not have to pay. to do the work properly and quickly? Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). 349WH 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Support for Hill Farmers 350WH

Support for Hill Farmers that ELMS is fully rolled out by that stage. Put simply, the Government are asking hill farmers to endure seven years of lost income, seven years of uncertainty, and [MR PETER BONE in the Chair] seven years when we may lose the backbone and future of our industry, with devastating long-term consequences 4 pm for our food supply and our environment. I simply urge the Minister to delay the phasing out of the basic Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): I beg payment until the environmental land management system to move, is fully operational for everyone. It would be a tragedy if That this House has considered support for hill farmers. the Government messed up what might well be a positive It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship and new scheme by botching the implementation period. to be guided by you today, Mr Bone. It is also a real For all that uncertainty, the outline of the new honour to be asked to speak on a subject that is of environmental land management system is cause for massive importance to my constituents and to people some optimism. It is right that we should reward farmers across the country. for public goods. The industry is behind that and so South Cumbria’s landscape is spectacular. Much of it am I, but let us get the details and the implementation is within the Lake district and the Yorkshire dales, and right. The greatest public good that comes from our pretty much all of it has been maintained over generations uplands is of course the production of food: 45% of by our hill farmers. The UK’s uplands are vital to us all, UK lamb is produced in the uplands, as is 55% of the yet they are generally exposed and remote. Furthermore, UK suckler herd and 35% of UK milk. Given that upland farms are disadvantaged compared with lowland straw and feed grown in the lowlands go to feed animals ones due to a shorter grass growing season. Hill farming in the uplands, if hill farming recedes, clearly lowland is therefore often a marginal occupation. My fear is that farming would soon sadly follow. A country that loses the unintended consequences of transition to new payment capacity to feed itself is a country in big trouble. methods and new export arrangements could push An alarming 50% of the food we consume is imported. hundreds of marginal upland farms out of business. In Twenty years ago, that figure was more like 35%. Our this debate, I want to help the Government to get this food security looks more and more tenuous as every transition right, so that our hill farmers do not pay an year goes by, although it is not just the Government’s unbearable cost and so that Britain does not lose a stubborn insistence on the premature phase-out of basic priceless asset. payments that threatens our food security but the worry I speak regularly to hill farmers in our communities that ELMS itself may inadvertently or deliberately see in Cumbria. Many of them are terrified of what is to the draining of funds from upland farms. come and do not have confidence in the Government One mistake would be to fail to use the skills of hill plans revealed thus far. Right now, their No. 1 concern farmers to fight against climate change. For example, is the plan to phase out the basic payment scheme from commendably, the National Trust wants to increase the next January, before the environmental land management amount of its land used for trees from 7% to 17%, but system is ready to be delivered. The figures from the one means of delivering that would be completely to Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs bypass farmers. Indeed, any other landowner might do tell us that an average of 85% of livestock farm incomes the same. However, if we bypass hill farmers, we will come from the basic payment. lose hill farmers, and if we lose hill farmers, we will lose Despite regular calls from the National Farmers Union, the very people whom we most need in order to deliver the Tenant Farmers Association and others to think the whole range of vital environmental goods to tackle again, the Government have not listened so far. A and to mitigate climate change. I therefore ask the ham-fisted phasing out of the basic payment may see Minister to ensure that ELMS is delivered only to active farm failures across the country, especially in the uplands. farmers. After all, it would be a disgrace if the replacement The stark reality is that the phase-out of the basic of the common agricultural policy was a policy that payment begins in 10.5 months’ time, but environmental removed agriculture from the commons. land management schemes will not be available for Recently, our rural and farming network took the everyone until 2028. Rolling out schemes before they DEFRA policy team to a hill farm near Slaidburn. The are ready can have a catastrophic impact. The lesson of farm is already in a higher-level stewardship scheme universal credit should have taught the Government that. and doing all it possibly can, but it is still more reliant We have already had the first predictable evidence of on the basic payment than on environmental payments. slippage in the timetable. The plan to test a national They asked the DEFRA team what else the farm could pilot scheme for ELMS this year has already been do environmentally to make up for the imminent loss of pushed back to the autumn, yet the Government insists the basic payment. The Department offered no ideas. on ploughing ahead with the phase-out before anyone is Perhaps the Minister will be able to reassure hill farmers ready, least of all the Government themselves. Removing that ELMS will not be biased against certain categories the existing support before the new system is properly of farm simply because of the nature of their landscapes. tested and ready to implement seems reckless and will In addition, a concern among farmers in my community surely cost many hill farmers their businesses, and many is that the new ELMS will be much easier for some farming families their future. farms than others by virtue of location and, to some Projections prepared by the Uplands Alliance using extent, sheer good luck. For example, a grassland farm, DEFRA’s farm business survey data from the Andersons with mostly fences for boundaries and not so many Centre consultancy suggest significant reductions in walls or hedges may struggle to tick sufficient environmental farm business incomes by 2024, and further show a net boxes, compared with a farm with some existing woodland, loss of income to the average farm in 2028, even assuming perhaps a bit of wetland, or hedges. 351WH Support for Hill Farmers12 FEBRUARY 2020 Support for Hill Farmers 352WH

Hill farmers are essential to the promotion and protection quantify and codify a financial reward for the farmers of biodiversity. They maintain rare natural habitats and who carefully maintain the view below me, but I know ensure the upkeep of our rich heritage landscapes. They that it takes my breath away. protect iconic British breeds such as Herdwick, Swaledale Those farmers underpin the £3-billion-a-year Lake and rough fell sheep. We have to be prepared, through district tourism economy that employs 60,000 people ELMS, to count the rearing of such breeds as a clear throughout our county. Our farmers’ work was public good worthy of attracting public money. Indeed, acknowledged in 2017 when UNESCO granted world many of the public goods provided by farmers are heritage site status to the Lake district. It will not be by-products of the fact that we have viable farms producing easy to quantify and codify that, which is why the food. That is why a major focus must be to ensure that Government should not fool themselves that they will hill farmers get a fair price for their produce. be able to do so competently and without teething That is why, to be honest, I am disappointed that the trouble in just a few years. The Government need to Government are not more forthcoming about plans to give themselves time and not rush the phasing out of expand the role of the Groceries Code Adjudicator, a basic payments. piece of machinery that the Liberal Democrats were Britain’s uplands feed us. They give us biodiversity, proud to help deliver in government—but we were sad protection from flooding, carbon sinks, heritage and that the Conservatives chose to water it down before it rare breeds. They underpin a multi-billion-pound visitor reached the statute book. Will the Minister commit to economy. They give us space to breathe, to soak up ensuring that the Groceries Code Adjudicator has its awesome creation in its rawest form; they stir us and remit widened so that it can look at the whole supply they settle us. chain and act on referrals from advocates such as the NFU,the Tenant Farmers Association and indeed Members Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) of Parliament, and so that it is given the power to levy (PC): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing sanctions that will truly hurt those retailers and processors this debate. He has outlined a number of major strategic who abuse their market power to pay our farmers a objectives, and said that farmers are part of the solution, pittance? not the problem. Does he agree—I am sure he does—that Water management work in the uplands is utterly the four Governments of the UK need to work with our vital—the impact of Storm Ciara over the weekend was farming community to achieve the strategic objectives a reminder of just how important that is. Farmers he outlined? protect our towns and villages from flooding. In December, we marked the fourth anniversary of Storm Desmond; Tim Farron: The hon. Gentleman makes an important the memories and the financial and emotional impact point. The essence is this: farmers manage our landscape of the devastation it caused are still fresh for many of and work it as owners or tenants—many of our constituents our communities in Cumbria and elsewhere. Amidst the are tenant farmers who have even more insecurity in the pain there is much to be celebrated, and we can be current situation. Without their being able to make a proud about how our communities responded and coped. living as active farmers—food production is their primary Farmers were a key part of that; they did essential work motivation—we lose their presence on the landscape to in places such as Kentmere and Longsleddale. For our deliver all those public goods. First and foremost, the farmers to do vital work to mitigate flood damage and, Government must maintain the current farmers on the indeed, be part of natural flood management schemes, uplands. If by a slip between cup and lip over the next they need to be equipped. The scope of public goods seven years, we lose a chunk of a hill farming community, must be broad enough to reward them for it. we will not get them back. Even if we do, it will be at Central to environmental land management schemes vast expense. must be farm succession. Attracting young people to The delivery of public goods is undoable without the hill farming, incentivising them to enter the industry people to deliver them. That seems basic common sense. and supporting them as they grow their business means ELMS fills me with some optimism; the thinking behind allowing older farmers to retire with dignity and to an the new scheme is positive and the industry as a whole affordable home. Given the astonishing price of housing welcomes it. What I am bothered about is that the in rural communities such as mine, that will take serious transition could be so clunky, and lacking understanding Government intervention. of how marginal the incomes of those farmers are, that Contrary to popular myth, many hill farmers voted we end up losing them in the process, and they will see it remain—the majority in my patch did—but those who as a seven-year notice to quit. voted leave often tell me that they were motivated by a We borrow Britain’s uplands from the generations to desire to do away with the red tape and bureaucracy of come, and we are beyond grateful to those who maintain the CAP—or rather, the British application of the CAP. them. We must not, either by design or by accident, I trust that the Minister will not replicate or even add to threaten the future of our uplands or their stewards. the burdens of bureaucracy, badly run payment agencies, excessive farm visits and insecurity that have been the 4.15 pm hallmarks of a hill farmer’s lot in recent times. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, To achieve a fair deal for hill farmers, it is essential Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): I congratulate that the Bill defines public goods to recognise the incredible the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim work that they are doing. The public good that I fear Farron) on securing this debate. He is a champion for may be in most danger is perhaps the hardest one to hill farming areas, and hill farming is particularly important quantify, measure or reward: the work that farmers do in his constituency. As he described quite eloquently, to maintain the aesthetics of our landscape. I can look hill farming is a critical part of some of our most down Langdale from the Pikes. I do not know how to important landscapes in this country. 353WH Support for Hill Farmers12 FEBRUARY 2020 Support for Hill Farmers 354WH

[George Eustice] defend the idea of arbitrary,area-based payments, because in essence they are a subsidy for land tenure or land Those areas are the home of important heritage occupation and land ownership. That means that the native breeds, which I will come on to. The sheep biggest payments go to some of the wealthiest landowners farming industry, which is predominantly based in hill in the country. It means that people who perhaps sell a farming areas, using some of those breeds, is large: business and get millions of pounds in profits can invest worth around £1 billion a year. The UK sheep sector, that money in land, to shelter their wealth, and then on despite what some say, is world leading—we are the top of that claim a BPS payment, a subsidy, from the largest producer in Europe by a very long way. Over a taxpayer. That just is not sustainable, justifiable or third of sheep production in Europe is carried on in the defensible in the long term. UK. Internationally, we are the third or fourth largest Therefore the premise behind our Agriculture Bill is exporter of lamb after countries such as Australia and this: let us get rid of the subsidy on land tenure or New Zealand. There is a very strong brand for UK ownership and instead pay farmers properly and reward sheep production, and we have strong regional brands— them adequately for the work that they do for the whether west country lamb, lamb from upland areas environment. The system will be based on payments for such as the hon. Gentleman’s, or Welsh lamb, which is delivering public goods and environmental outcomes famous around the world. Let us not forget Scottish and for protecting genetic heritage through rare breeds, lamb for good measure, including on Shetland. protecting water quality and so on. We are going through a big change in our industry as we leave the European Union and chart a different Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con): My hon. Friend course. The first thing I want to say relates to our trade the Minister will know as well as I do that many upland with the European Union. We export a significant farmers also support some of the tributaries that run amount of lamb to the European Union: about a third into our main estuaries, and we have declining populations of what we produce nationally. That is why the political of salmon and sea trout in those. Will ELMS be trying declaration—the heads of terms on the future to repopulate some of our rivers with salmon and sea partnership—being discussed envisages zero tariffs on trout? Is that something that we can do through upland all goods. If that were not to be possible, depending on farming? how negotiations go as far as the sectors affecting the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs George Eustice: It is absolutely the case that one key are concerned, getting at least tariff-free access or a priority of the future scheme and one objective set out tariff rate quota on lamb would be a very high priority. in clause 1 of the Bill is about improving water quality. We hope that it will be possible to get zero tariffs on all Any measures and interventions that farmers implement goods, since that is what both parties have committed to that will lead to improved water quality will be exactly try to achieve. the type of project that we would want to support. I also point out that it seems already to be the case, Jonathan Edwards: When it appears in the news that from some of the work that we have done, that when it British Cabinet members are talking about there being comes to sheep farmers in particular, around 30% of trade barriers, or the Prime Minister says that he is them do not actually receive the BPS payment; they are looking forward to importing Ugandan beef, does the in some kind of contract farm agreement and effectively Minister think that alleviates or heightens anxieties in their landlord takes the BPS payment while they are the the rural communities we represent? ones doing all the work and raising the sheep. It is not at all clear that the current area-based BPS payment is in George Eustice: The Prime Minister is also very keen fact in the interests of the sheep sector. that we open up new markets.There are great opportunities for our lamb sector in markets such as the middle east Tim Farron: I want to be very clear that I have agreed and the far east, including in countries such as Japan. with everything that the Minister has said about the We should not always take a glass-half-empty view area-based payment, its unjustifiable nature and how it when it comes to trade. We also have offensive interests, is not a basis on which to continue—indeed, I support particularly in our livestock sector. in principle what we are talking about with the We are looking at those opportunities around the environmental land management scheme. However, my world for our lamb sector. I have already had discussions concern is that we have a seven-year transition in which with New Zealand, for instance, about whether together we are about to phase out the current scheme more the UK and New Zealand could develop the market for quickly than we are to phase in the scheme to replace it. lamb in the United States. There is a very small, That is where we lose the people we need in order to underdeveloped market for lamb in the US at the moment, deliver the public goods in the long term. but it is growing, particularly among younger consumers in the US. These are all opportunities that we have as we George Eustice: I entirely appreciate that and I assure leave the European Union and take back control with the hon. Gentleman that I was not going to skip over an independent trade policy. that point; I have some time left. I want, though, to spend most of my time talking The upland areas in particular are well placed to about future agriculture policy, as concerns about the benefit from a system of support based on the delivery loss of the basic payment scheme—direct payments—and of public goods. Some 66% of blanket bog in England the speed of the transition were at the heart of the is in “triple SI”s—sites of special scientific interest—and opening remarks made by the hon. Member for is in those upland areas, so projects such as peatland Westmorland and Lonsdale. I will simply say that, in restoration are certainly things that the uplands could terms of future policy, I do not think it possible to do. Some of our rare and endangered bird species are in 355WH Support for Hill Farmers12 FEBRUARY 2020 Support for Hill Farmers 356WH parts of the uplands so projects to support their recovery have had trials running. We have 30 trials already up also lend themselves well to such areas. I am also and running—already under way. There has been no thinking of projects that might mitigate the risk of delay, and further trials will be added. He suggested floods by holding water uphill and projects such as the that we would not be in a position to roll out the new mires project down in the west country, on Exmoor, scheme until 2028. That is not the case. We intend to be that can improve water quality by rewetting some of rolling out the new scheme to every farmer—a full those peatland areas. launch of the scheme—probably around 2024, so we All those things mean that the potential for some of will not be waiting until the end of the transition before the uplands to be rewarded for what they in some cases we start the new scheme. We envisage that, as the legacy already do, but may well do even more of in the future, scheme tapers out, we will be opening up versions of the is very high. The reality is that our current system pays new scheme in advance of that. the moorland areas, the severely disadvantaged areas, The hon. Gentleman suggested that we ought to have less money than it does the lowlands, even though they an active farmer test. I am reluctant to get into that are probably doing most of all for our environment. kind of EU rule making, as it was not particularly The change in emphasis to payment for delivering public successful when the EU tried it. However, he makes a goods means that those severely disadvantaged areas, very good point: some of the environmental benefits which historically have been told, “We will give you less that we need explicitly require grazing, and grazing by subsidy because your land is less productive,”may actually the right type of animal, to be taking place on our be able to deliver and achieve far more. upland areas, to keep the bracken down and the sward I come now to the issue of the transition. The hon. at the right length so that conditions are made most Gentleman is absolutely right, and I agree, that getting favourable for invertebrates, which in turn helps farmland the sequencing of the transition right will be very birds. It is therefore not the case that we want to take important. Although we have not made final decisions land out of grazing; indeed, grazing has an important in these respects, I will make a number of points to him. part to play. We have amended the Bill so that it First, the Bill provides for us to make available grants recognises native breeds and rare breeds in particular as and payments to farmers to help them to improve their a public good. We changed that in its latest iteration so productivity, invest in equipment and reduce costs, and that we can reward those hill farmers who are using and that will help farmers to get to a position in which they encouraging the preservation of some of our important are less reliant on the subsidy payments that they receive genetic resources. now. The hon. Gentleman is right that we need to get The Bill also provides for us to make several years’ farmers a fair price for the food that they produce. payment in one lump sum to help—aid—the retirement Although we chose not to extend the remit of the of those farmers who decide that now is the time to Groceries Code Adjudicator, we have in the Agriculture leave. Linked to that, we know, from all the work that Bill taken wide-ranging powers to be able to legislate in we have done, that if we want to encourage new entrants the field of contracts to ensure that there is fairness in into the sector, the critical element is freeing up access the supply chain and transparency around what farmers to land. That is why, if we want new entrants to come are paid as well as on issues such as carcase classification. in, we have to have projects and ideas to help farmers, There are quite wide powers in the Bill dealing with who are sometimes in their 70s or 80s and still going, to those things. make the sometimes difficult decision to retire. The My final point is that it is not correct to say that we measure gives us the option to be able to do that. watered down the GCA. There was a delay in the The Bill also gives us the power to modify the legacy introduction of penalties for breaches, but those were scheme, to simplify some of the rules around the basic put in place—I think even under the last coalition payment scheme, or indeed to simplify and modify the Government, but possibly after the end of the coalition current pillar two countryside stewardship scheme. The Government and under the Conservative Government integrated administration and control system that is a from 2015. But substantial sanctions are in place and requirement of EU law is particularly burdensome on available to it. some of the current schemes, and we would have the I hope that I have been able to reassure the hon. option, should we wish it, to remove that. Gentleman that we see a vibrant future for hill farming. Let me deal with some of the hon. Gentleman’s other We believe that hill farmers will be able to benefit from points. He suggested that the pilot was delayed. The our new system of payment for public goods, and they pilot is not delayed: we always intended to go to a full can look to the future with confidence. pilot in 2021, and still do, and will. The issue is that we Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). 357WH 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Social Mobility 358WH

Social Mobility Westminster Hall. Does he agree—I think he does—that it is important that being born into a family of sales assistants should not mean that someone can only be a 4.30 pm sales assistant, in the same way that being born into a Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): family of doctors does not mean that someone can only I beg to move, secure a position as a doctor? There must be a better That this House has considered social mobility. structure to ensure that people can determine their own path, based on their hard work and passion rather than It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, their background and birthplace. Mr Bone. I am grateful to be able to raise this subject, which I believe is vital to our country as we develop global Britain and look to a successful and exciting Sir David Evennett: I totally agree—and, of course, future. Among other roles outside politics, I have worked the opportunities have to be there for people to do it. as both a teacher and a lecturer, so I am particularly That is what this debate is about. passionate about education and social mobility. I have Last month, the World Economic Forum highlighted always endeavoured to be involved in them and to the problem of poor social mobility around the world. highlight issues and concerns about them. It concluded that where someone is born still pretty Ultimately, social mobility is about ensuring that much determines the opportunities they get in life. It everyone has the opportunity to build a good life for also published a new global social mobility index, on themselves, regardless of their family background. In a which Denmark is ranked No. 1. The forum found that socially mobile society, every individual should have a just a handful of Governments—specifically those in fair chance of reaching their full potential. Social mobility Scandinavian countries—have succeeded in laying the is good not only from a moral perspective but from an foundations for greater social mobility and more prosperous economic perspective: by ensuring that talent is harvested futures for their citizens. Rather disappointingly, of the across the social spectrum, we have the opportunity to 82 countries in the index, the United Kingdom is ranked boost our country’s productivity and GDP. 21st, behind Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands Social mobility is one of the key reasons for Britain’s and Ireland. historical success in channelling the talents of all sections A lack of social mobility not only has a negative of our country for the benefit of the whole nation. impact on an individual but affects the society in which Margaret Thatcher, for example, came from very humble they live. Now we have left the EU, it is more important origins to become, in my opinion, one of the greatest than ever that we look seriously at how to improve Prime Ministers we have had. She became Prime Minister social mobility further to harness talent across the because of social mobility. country. I strongly believe that talent and hard work should determine how far people can go in life, whoever John Howell (Henley) (Con): My right hon. Friend they are and wherever they come from. Opportunity talks of Margaret Thatcher coming from a humble should be available to all sections of our society. background. I wonder whether he participated in a booklet produced about 10 years ago of Conservative Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): I Members who also came from humble backgrounds. I congratulate my right hon. Friend on bringing forward was, and I think that was a useful tool. this important debate. I want to reinforce his point about the economic cost of a lack of social mobility. We Sir David Evennett: I welcome my hon. Friend’s agree that that is a tragic waste of human potential and intervention. I, too, am a product of social mobility: happiness, but let me quote the Sutton Trust, which education and social mobility have characterised my said: life. I was born into a family whose origins were in the east end of London, but, through family, education and “A modest increase in the UK’s social mobility (to the average opportunity, my grandparents and parents were able to level across western Europe) could be associated with an increase in annual GDP of approximately 2%, equivalent to…£39 billion develop and get on in life. I am therefore always grateful to the UK economy”. for the opportunities I had from schoolteachers, from the LSE, where I went to university, and from others who helped me to move up, be involved and have a Sir David Evennett: I thank my hon. Friend for giving career. us that informative statistic. There are also business leaders,entrepreneurs,innovators, Conservative Governments have made considerable actors and singers from humble backgrounds who have progress since 2010, particularly on education standards had the opportunity to move up the social scale and and opportunities. Education gives us a better make something for themselves. However, despite some understanding of the world around us, helps us to successes, for far too long the UK has not done as well develop a perspective for looking at life and helps us to on the social mobility front as I would have liked. build opinions. It is key to social mobility. Some 86% of Where someone starts in life should not determine schools are now rated good or outstanding, compared where they finish in life. There is a strong link between with only 68% in August 2010. That is a real improvement, adults’ income and those of their parents, and people’s and the Government should be congratulated on it. educational attainment is closely linked to that of their More young people than ever go to our world-class parents too. That significantly affects opportunities later universities, and the highest ever proportion of 16 and in life. 17-year-olds participate in education. We will increase the schools budget by £2.6 billion in 2020-21, £4.8 billion Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the in 2021-22, and £7.1 billion in 2022-23, compared with right hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. This is an 2019-20. That will help schools to develop the talent of important issue, which we have discussed recently in our young people. 359WH Social Mobility 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Social Mobility 360WH

We should all be proud of what the Government have Greening. The pledge is made up of three interlinking delivered so far and what they continue to deliver. In my commitments. The first is partnering directly with schools borough, Bexley, we are fortunate to have many brilliant or colleges to provide coaching through quality careers schools, both primary and secondary, and a wide range advice, enrichment experience and/or mentoring to people of job opportunities, including apprenticeships. Bexley from disadvantaged backgrounds or circumstances. The has been listed as a “social mobility hotspot”, as children second is access, providing structured work experience from both disadvantaged and advantaged backgrounds and/or apprenticeship opportunities for people from achieve excellent results at school and benefit from a disadvantaged backgrounds. Thirdly, there is recruitment, wide range of opportunities. adopting open employee recruitment practices that promote However, there is still more to be done, in Bexley and a level playing field for people from disadvantaged across the country. Clearly, there is still a social mobility backgrounds or circumstances, such as name-blind postcode lottery in Britain: the chances of someone recruitment and contextual recruitment. The initiative from a disadvantaged background being successful are is backed by hundreds of businesses, because they still linked to where they live. I am concerned about understand that improving social mobility is good for underachievement. There are areas throughout the UK them as well as for individuals and communities. and in my constituency where many children do not The pledge was set up to tackle the social mobility reach their full potential. Young people—particularly problem, share best practice and ideas and to boost young males—in certain areas of the country have social mobility. It covers more than 3 million employees become more disengaged from all aspects of society and 1 million students across the UK. Partners include and, regrettably, have fewer aspirations. For some, their PricewaterhouseCoopers, Sainsbury’s, BP,the AA, various teachers, parents and peer groups do not expect them to universities, and some of my local housing associations. do well, and there seems to be an acceptance of that. I That is important and welcome. believe that talent is uniform across all sections of our I also want to stress the important role that further society, but opportunity is not always so. education colleges can play in improving social mobility I am particularly worried about the underachievement as well as helping to solve our country’s skills shortage. of white working-class boys. My hon. Friend the Member Further education has always had close links with local for Mansfield (Ben Bradley) led a Westminster Hall employers, so it is in a unique position to fill their skills debate on that subject this morning. I will not repeat gaps, but that needs businesses, local authorities, schools what was said then, because he covered the issue very and colleges to work together. well and the Minister responded, but I share the concerns Last week, I visited the Bexley campus of London that were highlighted. We need to give young people South East Colleges, which is an excellent college in our from all backgrounds the tools and knowledge they area that understands the vital importance of providing need to succeed; then, the world will be their oyster, and good training and education and promoting social mobility the opportunities to reach for the stars, or whatever, will and opportunity. I discussed finance, and I do believe be there. that our further education colleges are underfunded. I The “Elitist Britain” report published by the Sutton hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Secretary of Trust and the Social Mobility Commission laid bare State for Education and indeed my hon. Friend the “the lack of opportunities for so many young people”. Minister will take action to fund colleges better. It I will not go through the statistics, because I want would be a good investment in our nation as well as for others to be able to participate in the debate. Unfortunately, individuals, and it would help global Britain succeed. however, the elite still dominates, so we have a lot of As well as speaking with staff and students, I was work to do to give people an opportunity to rise up. privileged to meet some inspirational apprentices studying on apprenticeship schemes. Apprenticeships are an engine John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con): My right of social mobility, particularly as they create routes into hon. Friend is setting out his case eloquently and beautifully. stable, highly skilled and well-paid jobs. It is important May I push him a little on his point about some people to note that learners from deprived backgrounds may not being advised to aim high or encouraged to be the need to be in employment while learning, rather than best they can? Does he share my fear that in some parts going on to colleges. A report by Universities UK called of the country, as he describes, there is some sort of “The Financial Concerns of Students” found that living inverse snobbery, and that some people are just told to costs to be a more significant concern than the level of aim low because the people around them are not willing tuition fees for undergraduates and that the financial to transcend the images they have—social images, aspects of going to university are more important to perhaps—of the people who should and could aim those from under-represented and lower socioeconomic high? groups. Nearly all the apprentices I spoke to there and Sir David Evennett: That is a good point, and that is across Bexley—a very good local authority in promoting regrettable in 21st century Britain. apprenticeships—see a tremendous beneficial impact from apprenticeships on their career. The majority were The “Elitist Britain” report made a number of policy satisfied in their job and felt they were better at doing recommendations, but I want to highlight two of them: their job since starting their apprenticeship. “Recruitment practices should be open and transparent” Worryingly,though, the report found—this was repeated and at my meetings—that a majority of apprentices said “Leading social mobility employers should take a sector leadership their secondary schoolteachers had not discussed role and share best practice.” apprenticeships as an option with them. Similarly, a In the previous Parliament and the one before that, I majority of teachers said they would rarely or never was a strong supporter of the social mobility pledge, advise their high-performing students to choose an championed by the former Member for Putney, Justine apprenticeship over university. That overall experience 361WH Social Mobility 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Social Mobility 362WH

[Sir David Evennett] offer, but that report and others show that it is over- dominant to the detriment of other places. It is no of the apprentices I talked to is rather disappointing. wonder that three and a half years ago so many people They felt, and I agree, that we need a more innovative sent us a message in the ballot box that they wanted and proactive approach to raise awareness and break something fundamentally different in the way the country down those barriers among staff and pupils in schools. works. There is a lot to be done. I know the Government are As the right hon. Member said in his introduction, committed to creating a country where everyone has the there is an international comparison of social mobility same chances to go as far as their talents allow. I am a from the World Economic Forum, which ranks the UK strong supporter of the Prime Minister’s agenda of 21st in the world. Unfortunately, as was mentioned, the opportunities for all across our country. We must now majority of countries above us are our western European ensure that people are encouraged from a young age to neighbours. We see that the top performers combine engage with education and training and understand the “access, quality and equity in education, while also providing long-term benefits. Without action—the Government work opportunities and good working conditions, alongside quality must be involved, as must all the others I have mentioned— social protection and inclusive institutions”. social and economic divisions in the UK could widen, I do not think we can begin to understand the scale of meaning our country and our workforce will not be the problem until we see words like that, which show geared up to ensure that global Britain is the success how social mobility is about far more than just education. that our PM wants and we all strongly believe we can achieve. This is an important issue and, at this time in our history, social mobility should be top of our agenda. Jim Shannon: It is very much more than education. There is also a need to have education at an early stage. Several hon. Members rose— The schools in my constituency, and probably in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, try to focus on career Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Order. It might be opportunities, and it is important that teachers involved useful for the House to know that I have four Back in careers give the full picture of opportunities and Benchers wanting to catch my eye and we will begin the what may need to be done. Pupils may see some other winding-up speeches at 5.10 pm. options for work and they need to know that opportunities are there. 4.45 pm Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): It Justin Madders: I thank the hon. Member. We have is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. talked many times about the need to raise levels of I congratulate the right hon. Member for Bexleyheath aspiration. One of the sad things we have seen in recent and Crayford (Sir David Evennett) on his excellent times is how quality careers advice has slowly drained introduction. I begin by declaring that I am co-chair of out of the education system. It is not just about 14 and the all-party parliamentary group on social mobility. 15-year-olds; it is about getting five and six-year-olds to This is an issue I feel passionately about, and I am think about what they can achieve. The evidence shows afraid that each time I speak on it I see little sign of that the countries that tend to be more socially mobile progress. We need an overarching cross-departmental are those where the gap between the bottom and the top Government strategy, which is sadly lacking at the is smaller,demonstrating that social mobility and inequality moment. are closely linked. In 2019, it is a scandal that where you were born and who you are born to are still the biggest I have long held the view that many of the frustrations influences on your prospects. If we are ever going to and factors that led to the Brexit vote are connected to move forward as a nation, everyone should have the declining social mobility.That was reinforced by findings same opportunity to achieve their potential. I think published a few weeks ago by the Social Mobility everyone in the room agrees with that. Commission, whose survey showed that 78% of people in London thought they had good opportunities to When he resigned as the chair of the Social Mobility progress, whereas only 31% of people in the north-east Commission, Alan Milburn said he was doing so because did. Those figures ought to make us all sit up and take the Government were notice, because they show just how disconnected we are “unable to devote the necessary energy and focus to the social from voters and how little confidence the public have in mobility agenda.” our being able to address their concerns. When he gave evidence to the Education Committee, he A number of recent reports tell us about the scale of said: challenge we face. One is from the Sutton Trust and “After the change of Prime Minister, following the European even its title, “Elites in the UK: Pulling Away?”, pulls referendum, that whole conversation frankly went into the void. no punches. It said that one in five men in professional There was no conversation. There was no response.” occupations born between 1955 and 1961 became socially mobile, but the figure for those born between 1975 and Those are damning word that were barely met with a 1981 was only one in eight. In other words, we are a shrug. country where opportunity is declining. The pull of The new chair—not so new, now—Dame Martina London was prominent, with the report finding that Milburn is bringing real focus and drive to the commission two thirds of the most socially mobile people built their which only yesterday produced a fine set of careers close to home, rather than by moving away, but recommendations for the workplace, including internships people in that group were more likely to come from being openly advertised— something that the all-party London. Of course, London is the political, economic group on social mobility has called for for a long time. and cultural centre of this country, and it has much to It recognises, as we do, that informal networks, which 363WH Social Mobility 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Social Mobility 364WH do much to stifle social mobility, creep into recruitment, 4.53 pm even at the internship stage, for which money is a vital in order to make the first step through the door. While John Howell (Henley) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve we are on that subject, why do we still allow internships under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I thank my right to be unpaid? That is an invitation for exploitation. hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Sir David Evennett) for introducing this important Werightly focus on education, but addressing inequalities debate. beyond the education system, including factors such as In my intervention, I mentioned a booklet that was access to work, tax, welfare, housing, transport and produced during my early years as a new Member and health, is vital. We need to look at the world of work, in which I appeared. Its purpose was to try to attack the particularly. For how much longer will the most likely caricatures that were made of Members on this side and experience for young people be casual work, low pay to show that they, too, had participated in social mobility and insecurity in the workplace? in their own lives. I am a good example of that, having The Government need to stop treating social mobility come from a poor family and worked my way through as a niche issue that is the role of just one Minister. education, at school and three times at university. It is They need to make it a mission across all Government not that I got it wrong the first time, and had to go back departments, with a focused and consistent approach and do it again; I can explain that on another occasion. that transcends the day-to-day world of politics and It is important to show that Members on this side have reshuffles. That is an issue to which I hope the commission personal experience of social mobility. can add value. My hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) and the hon. Member for Strangford Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Jim Shannon) will have heard what I am going to say, (Con): I agree with everything the hon. Gentleman has in a debate yesterday about the apprenticeship levy. I said, particularly about the importance of each Government heard what my right hon. Friend the Member for Department taking this issue seriously. He may recall Bexleyheath and Crayford said about apprenticeships; I that under the coalition Government there was a Cabinet agree with him. My point yesterday was that I do not sub-committee specifically on social mobility, which think the levy has helped to achieve social mobility. The entrusted and tasked a Minister from each Department figures from 2015-16 show that the deprived 20% accounted to take forward initiatives in their Department. Does he for around 21.9% of level 4 apprenticeships and above. agree that that is something we can recommend for the That figure has now dropped to 16.4%, so there is a Minister to take away and feed back, particularly in long way to go. We need to build into the apprenticeship advance of events that are likely to occur tomorrow? levy—into apprenticeships generally—the idea that they are not an excuse for trying to fob off other sorts of training, particularly for graduates, who may feel they Justin Madders: I hope the Minister stays in post and are able to do something better. is able to take back today’s messages. Government focus Education played a major part in my own experience. has not been where it should be, but in the early part of Universities have changed enormously over the past few the last decade we saw a real drive, with the introduction years. The percentage of people who received free school of the Commission on Social Mobility, which has meals who are going to university now is much larger unfortunately now stagnated. We need much greater than it was even five years ago. That is very welcome. accountability and transparency across Government in Combined with the emphasis on apprenticeships, that this area. It seems incredible that there is no automatic shows that there are good opportunities for young impact assessment about the effect that new legislation people to engage in aspirational activities, which will will have on social mobility. help them to make the most of their lives in the future. Our central aim and mission should be to create a Society today is much more dynamic than it was even in society where everyone has the same opportunities in the 1990s. There are good examples of that in the life, regardless of their background. We know we have a Chamber. However, I fully accept that the work has not long way to go. As long as three quarters of senior yet finished and there is still much to be done to take the judges, half the top 100 news journalists and two thirds issue forward. of British Oscar winners are privately educated, we will As the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston not have a fair society. The kids from the council estates (Justin Madders) rightly pointed out, education is not will still get the message that those jobs are not for the only factor. Housing plays a major part in increasing people like them. social mobility. When people come to me and say, “I The economic imperative speaks for itself, but the don’t want any more houses built in my area”, I am moral urgency of the task is clear. The commissioners naturally very caustic with them, because that goes are making the case, as am I, and many other Members. against everything that I believe in terms of social The question now is are the Government listening? mobility. My hon. Friend the Member for Wantage What happens if the commission’s many worthy (David Johnston) is laughing because there is a dispute recommendations are not acted on? How much longer in Oxfordshire at the moment over the building of will we expect things to stagnate? Will anyone in houses, of which he is fully aware. Even social housing Government take personal responsibility to improve plays a major part in being able to provide people with social mobility? It is not an easy nut to crack and it will the experience we want them to have, in order to take take many years to see real improvements, but someone social mobility forward. senior in Government, with authority and resources, is I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath needed to build a cross-departmental approach that is and Crayford for introducing the debate. It is an excellent clearly lacking at the moment. subject for debate. As he has already picked out, and as 365WH Social Mobility 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Social Mobility 366WH

[John Howell] of kids of all ages from across Barnsley coming together, and the choir is ranked fifth in the world. They go all I did in the apprenticeship levy debate yesterday, the over the world performing. That is a fantastic example subject has been something of a theme this week. of an opportunity that gives young people the ability to Having a theme is good for this place because we can express themselves, to sing, to show off their talents and bring in different aspects of the subject as we go along. to see more of the world. It is a reflection of the community spirit of Barnsley, and it is particularly inspirational. 4.58 pm Volunteer-run programmes such as the Barnsley Youth Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): It is pleasure Choir show the commitment of parents, teachers and to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone, and to volunteers to giving young people the best start in life. follow the hon. Member for Henley (John Howell). I Last week I met the head of Netherwood Academy, one agree with his comments about the apprenticeship levy, of the schools in my constituency, to discuss its efforts which he made in the debates yesterday and today. I to increase the aspirations of young women. They want congratulate the right hon. Member for Bexleyheath successful women from different industries to go and and Crayford (Sir David Evennett) on securing this meet young girls and to speak about their careers and important debate. ambitions. As a former teacher, that is a project that I Social mobility is about young people’s chances in welcome, and I hope to welcome them here to the life. It is about creating a society where kids can aspire House of Commons. to anything, and about giving them the tools and resources Sadly, it is not just about having aspirations for more, they need to achieve their dreams. I will speak about the but about having the opportunity to act on those aspirations. current gap between aspiration and opportunity that Social mobility should not be a postcode lottery. exists in areas such as mine, and advocate for long-term, The Government can and should support working-class sustained investment in our schools and industry, so communities such as Barnsley by investing in its people, that children and young people from places, such as the local economies and the manufacturing industry, so Barnsley, have as much chance to succeed as those that people are not stuck in low-paid, insecure jobs with elsewhere. no prospect of development, with the only alternative Former coalfield communities, such as Barnsley, have being to leave their local areas. been left to weather the devastating impact of the loss We need to invest in the skills of our workforce, of the mining industry and decades of deindustrialisation which will aid recruitment and increase productivity. by themselves. Our economy has lagged behind that of We need to invest in education and qualifications to the rest of the UK, affecting how many and what kinds enable people in Barnsley to pursue jobs that are higher of jobs are available. Older industrial towns in coal-mining paid and more secure and, crucially, we need to fund areas tend to have fewer higher paying jobs, which transport projects to connect our towns and communities obviously has a knock-on effect on the amount of across the UK. I believe the Government need to take schools and, in particular, on transport infrastructure. urgent action if young people from my community are A stark geographical divide exists in this country. A to be given the best start in life. child from Cudworth in my constituency is five times less likely to go to university than one from Chelsea. In Barnsley, only 9% of kids who receive free school meals 5.3 pm go to university, compared with the national average Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con): It is a pleasure to of 26%. serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. It is also a Accessible vocational education is an important part pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Barnsley East of overcoming disadvantage, giving young people the (Stephanie Peacock); I particularly agreed with her tools and employment experiences to get on in life. remarks about university and encouraging participation. Right now, in my constituency, there is not one sixth-form I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath college. That is not to take away from the fantastic work and Crayford (Sir David Evennett) for allowing us to of Barnsley college, which is not too far away—it is a debate this today. fantastic institution and provides fantastic education—but Given the time, I will talk about one specific thing: the obviously the inability to stay on in a school setting has importance of going to a good university in driving an impact on encouraging young people to do A-levels. social mobility, and what more we can do to encourage It is not just about A-levels, but about vocational that. I should declare an interest at the outset; I am a education; there has been more than one debate on that Sutton Trust girl and am now an ambassador for the in this place this week, and I agree that it is incredibly trust. It has been mentioned a number of times, which important. But our communities have been left behind has been a pleasure to hear. and I do not believe that that should or must be the We know that university places correlate with success; case. This should not be the first generation that is that has been shown again and again, in study after worse off than the one before. Social mobility can be study. The Browne review showed that people are more fostered so that children from all backgrounds and likely to be employed, with higher wages and greater job areas can reach their potential. satisfaction, if they go to university, but it is the top A fantastic example of encouraging that is the world-class universities that confer particular benefit. We know that Barnsley Youth Choir, which provides choral training, many of our top employers only recruit from a certain regardless of financial or social background. The choir select number of universities. On average, they target was set up 10 years ago from absolutely nothing, and I the top 19 of our 115 universities, so it is not only take this opportunity to pay tribute to the fantastic university attendance that we need to focus on, but Mathew Wright, who set it up. Now we have hundreds which universities our deprived kids are going to. 367WH Social Mobility 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Social Mobility 368WH

That has been slightly overlooked in the debate we basics. The reforms that have been made to GCSEs and have been having over time about university attendance, A-levels are critical and I believe will, over time, make a which has been more about the quantity of people difference in social mobility terms. going through university, rather than the quality of the We cannot lose sight of that. We cannot allow our education that they get and what impact that has on Ofsted regulators to inspect everything under the sun, their educational outcomes. We have found that not rather than examine quality of education. It has become enough children from disadvantaged backgrounds are a Christmas tree over time, which has diluted the focus going to those good universities. There have been huge on the quality of education in schools. We cannot allow upticks in the numbers over time, which is of course to that to happen. If we are to really succeed in changing be welcomed; the Government have done a huge amount social mobility, we need laser-like focus on quality in to encourage that, and the Office for Students now has schools, which I know we will have. The increased a plan in place for each university to encourage it funding will help with that. further. However, the most advantaged 20% are still In summary, we must get more disadvantaged kids seven times more likely to attend the most selective into good universities. We need to highlight opportunities universities than the most disadvantaged 40%—a statistic and instil aspiration in them throughout their time in that we urgently need to address. schools. Over time, we have put a lot of emphasis on universities. That is obviously right, and there is a place for that, but, 5.9 pm as someone who came from a comprehensive school and was lucky enough to get into Oxford with the help Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP): It of the Sutton Trust, I know how difficult it is to make is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. that transition from a comprehensive education that I congratulate the right hon. Member for Bexleyheath was good, but not amazing, to university, and the extra and Crayford (Sir David Evennett). Is it not good that help that was needed once I got there. We can do more another further education lecturer is responding for the at school level to help with that transition and to raise Scottish National party? We both know the importance aspiration for our kids as they are going through school. of further education and how it helps to increase social mobility. Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend is right to highlight the The latest state of the nation report says that importance of raising aspiration, but it is not just about “social mobility has stagnated over the last four years at virtually raising aspiration a year or 18 months before the transition all stages from birth to work”, to university. It is about raising aspiration towards the which is an utterly shocking indictment of the UK end of primary school and at the very beginning of Government. It highlights the way in which inequality secondary school. There is good evidence that if that is entrenched in Britain, with someone born privileged takes place, and is done effectively, we hugely increase likely to remain privileged, while someone born social mobility and the aspiration of young people and disadvantaged may have to overcome barriers to improve their ability to attend good universities. their and their children’s social mobility. Urgent action needs to be taken to close the privilege gap. The report also praised the Scottish Government for making Scotland Laura Trott: My hon. Friend is right. We cannot just do this at sixth form: we need to focus on it throughout “more socially mobile, as a person’s occupation is now less determined by the occupation of one’s parents”, a child’s school career. and for Successive Governments have tried to fix careers “giving consideration to improving social mobility by introducing advice, and none has been effective in doing so. Careers a duty on public bodies to reduce socio-economic disadvantage”, advice varies hugely throughout the country and, despite the best efforts of successive Governments, evidence which we do not have in the rest of the UK. shows that it is not really getting much better. In our I, too, am socially mobile. My dad was a corporation levelling-up agenda as a Government, we really need to milkman and my mother was a cleaner. I was the first in focus specifically on that. my whole family to go to university, in 1967. A lot of what happened to me was because of my parents’ belief We also need to look at subject choice. The subject in education and the fact that their children should get choices that children from more deprived backgrounds the chances that they did not. However, it was also make tend to be less academic and I do not think they because they worked hard, and got the rewards of always realise how much that will drive future choices. working hard, in a way that families nowadays do not. There were people at my school who did A-levels, but We hear so much about work being the best way out of did not study all the sciences, and then realised that that poverty. That is not entirely true—not for someone in restricted their ability to study medicine at university. the gig economy on what is not, in fact, a living wage. They did not know that beforehand. It is crucial that we Most people on benefits are in working families, and look at how schools guide subject choices and consider there are children in poverty across the United Kingdom what different career paths require at an earlier stage. in families in which both parents work. This scandal We come to the fundamental question of the quality should not escape us, and we should do everything we of education. The education reforms that the coalition can to end it. The Scottish Government are working to put through and that have been pushed by this Government help Scottish families—the Scottish child payment is have been critical in driving up standards in schools. We about to come on board—but only 16% of social security need to focus on the fact that children need to be able to is devolved to Scotland, so they cannot do everything read and write when they leave school; everything else that they would like. Children are the start; and if we that we talk about—music education, for example—is give children across the UK the best possible start, all well and good, but we must have those fundamental social mobility should follow. 369WH Social Mobility 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Social Mobility 370WH

[Marion Fellows] My hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) mentioned social mobility. I Education has been mentioned. As I said, I was have to say that I disagree with his saying that London educated and became socially mobile. I was economically is the economic and cultural capital of Great Britain. inactive for a number of years—I had three children—but As a Manchester United fan, he should know better. was able to go back into the workforce at a far higher However, it was an excellent speech. He said that level. If we educate women especially, we educate opportunity has gone backwards and social mobility is generations after them. That is an absolute fact, and I going backwards. I thank him for his work in Parliament stand here as proof of it. The SNP Government have on this the subject. invested record amounts in schools, to close the poverty- The hon. Member for Henley (John Howell), as ever related attainment gap. Hon. Members should not listen in education debates in Westminster Hall, made really to everything said against education in Scotland. It is good points about apprenticeships and how important improving. I know from my experience in further education they are to working-class communities getting on. I that giving money helps,but it is also about the commitment visited Airbus in Broughton recently and sawworking-class of the people who work in education. young men and women obtaining level 4 and 5-equivalent The Scottish Government have a uniform fund, enabling degrees on the shop floor and coming out with no debt children to go to school and be like their peers. A child whatsoever. He also spoke about social housing, which who goes to school and is like their peers will learn was key for me. I had a secure tenancy growing up, even better, learn more and will feel able to progress. The though I grew up in a council flat on a council estate in Scottish Government have also expanded the education Manchester. How many young people nowadays get that? maintenance allowance in Scotland, but it has been scrapped here. We have to ask why, given that it is What my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East socially advantageous to give children from poorer (Stephanie Peacock) said about music resonated with backgrounds money to allow them to stay at school and me. She has one of the best choirs in Europe in her increase their educational abilities. constituency. Music, arts and culture are a great way to raise aspiration. She is a fantastic representative of a I absolutely agree with the hon. Member for Sevenoaks coal-mining community, and she said that those (Laura Trott). Yes, going to a good university is really communities need sustained and long-term investment. important, which is why places like St Andrews, one of I thank the hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Laura Trott) the leading UK universities, actively encourages children, for her ambassadorship for the Sutton Trust. She is and is actively encouraged by the Scottish Government— right: we need more working-class kids going to Russell Group universities. I have some appalling statistics of Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Order. I am sorry to free-school-meal kids who cannot really get into my interrupt the hon. Member, but because we are very fantastic local Russell Group university. The numbers close to time, Opposition spokespeople should only are so few. We have to work harder. have five minutes. You have exceeded that, so I am sure that you are about to bring your speech to a close. The hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) clearly said that the education of women is key to raising social mobility. However, with austerity, the Marion Fellows: I was indeed. Will the Minister tell economics we have had and the lack of social justice, it us whether her Government will follow the Scottish is no wonder that it is stalling. It is worth noting that Government and commit to a socioeconomic duty in there was no explicit reference to social mobility in the England and Wales, and whether they will look at steps Queen’s Speech. It has stagnated. That is not my view; that the Scottish Government have already taken to that was the view of the Social Mobility Commission, increase social mobility? which is part-sponsored by the Government. Members may recall that the board of the Commission resigned 5.14 pm en masse in 2017 because it thought that the Government were not taking this seriously enough. Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. A 2017 Social Mobility Commission report stated: I welcome the Minister to her new role. I know from my “There is a fracture line running deep through our labour and time on the Front Bench that she takes a keen interest in housing markets and our education system.” education. I congratulate the right hon. Member for In other words: our society is divided and unequal. As Bexleyheath and Crayford (Sir David Evennett) on my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and securing the debate. He has a long-standing interest in Neston pointed out, the then social mobility commissioner this matter and has raised it on the Floor of the House stated that appointments to key commission roles were on numerous occasions. I just hope that his colleagues left vacant for years, and went on to say in an interview at the top of the party will continue to listen. He is right in The Sunday Times that the Government had shown that it is a moral argument, which was made crystal clear in his comments. “indecision, dysfunctionality and a lack of leadership”. I am a First Generation ambassador for Manchester It took more than six months for the Government to Metropolitan University and have trained numerous appoint a new commission, so there was no doubt at working-class young people at A-level about going to that point that the Government were not prioritising university for the first time. Several of them will visit the issue. However, the new commission revealed that Parliament in the next few weeks. We raise money from more than half a million more children were living in the private sector to help the programme, and I am poverty than in 2012. Furthermore, levels of social proud of the work that I do as a constituency MP on mobility remained “virtually stagnant”since 2014—almost this matter. five wasted years. 371WH Social Mobility 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Social Mobility 372WH

I am extremely proud of my country, but the report My right hon. Friend mentioned social mobility hotspots. by the United Nations special rapporteur that was While we are working to improve the life chances of published last year made me feel ashamed. The report disadvantaged pupils everywhere, we recognise that some described how our social safety net had been badly parts of the country face particularly significant challenges. damaged by drastic cuts in Whitehall, how the glue that We have used the Social Mobility Commission’s 2016 held British society was coming unstuck, deliberately social mobility index and the data from the Department removed and replaced with a harsh, uncaring ethos. for Education on school capacity and performance to select 12 areas for targeted initiatives.Those 12 opportunity Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Order. I am sorry to areas are a mix of coastal, urban and rural areas across interrupt the shadow Minister, as this is an important the country. The commission’s report on the state of the debate, but we have limited time. He is over his five nation, which has been referenced several times, recognised minutes. the important work of opportunity areas for levelling up society, especially in deprived parts of the country. 5.20 pm We were, therefore, delighted to announce a one-year The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education £18 million extension to the programme last October, (Michelle Donelan): I congratulate my right hon. Friend bringing the total funds to £90 million. Additionally, we the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Sir David are working with leaders from education, local government Evennett) on securing this important debate on social and business, and we are investing up to £24 million mobility, the issue which inspired me to enter politics—to through Opportunity North East. enable others to get on. Social mobility is a top priority My right hon. Friend made an important point about for this Government and a challenge that requires action the need of young people to access a range of activities, across the whole of society and Government. My right inside and outside the classroom. In 2017-19, we invested hon. Friend is right that the Government must play a £22 million in an essential life skills programme to help key role in improving opportunities across our country. engage disadvantaged young children in extracurricular My right hon. Friend highlighted the important role activities, to develop confidence in leadership and support of the Social Mobility Commission. I want to reassure life skills critical to raising their aspirations. Last year, hon. Members that I regularly meet the chair of the we published guidance to help schools to improve character commission to discuss where we can effectively work education and the personal development of their pupils. closely together on our shared agenda. I vehemently believe that education is the key to expanding opportunities Justin Madders: Several hon. Members mentioned and everybody has the right to a good education. As my the World Economic Forum rankings. Do the Government right hon. Friend said, while education has the power to want to set a target to improve our position in those grow skills and knowledge, it is also about fostering rankings, and if so, over what time period? self-belief and expanding horizons. It really is the key to social mobility. Michelle Donelan: We have not yet set a target. I think Improving this country’s education system starts in the aspiration should be that the sky is the limit. This is the early years. Giving all young people the best start in an extremely important debate that, unfortunately, we life is a top priority for this Government. Weare committed did not have enough time for today. It is the key priority to improving access to early education and supporting of this Government to level up society across the country parents to improve their child’s outcome. Hungry Little and ensure that every child and young person has the Minds is a three-year campaign to encourage parents to opportunities they deserve. chat to their children, play with them and read to them, and to help them be ready for school and life. The other Going back to the point I was dealing with on, I week I visited the Wirral, where I saw how different wanted to say that it linked with the points made by the sectors of the community—businesses and charities—have hon. Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie Peacock), got involved in that campaign. who talked about the role of the voluntary sector in Schools are essential ladders of opportunity, as my levelling up society. Further education is a great driver right hon. Friend noted when he quoted the statistics of social mobility, and we are reviewing qualifications showing the success of the current reforms. We have to ensure that our reforms in that sector help all students. focused our attention on raising standards, because all We will provide £3 million in extra funding to pupil children, wherever they live, deserve high standards of premium plus, on top of the additional investment we education, which are the best way to allow young people have made in the further education sector. to make the most of their potential. My right hon. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Henley Friend will know that this has done much to improve (John Howell) that high-quality apprenticeships are the academic improvement and wider educational outcomes essential to social mobility. That is something that we of pupils from financially disadvantaged backgrounds. all recognise, and something that we debated in this We provide additional funding through the pupil Chamber yesterday. We want to ensure that people from premium. Since 2011, we have distributed over £17 billion all backgrounds can access the benefits of an apprenticeship, in pupil premium funding. Through the groundbreaking and our Opportunities Through Apprenticeships project work of the Education Endowment Foundation, schools was specifically targeted at helping disadvantaged young can now freely access a growing body of high-quality people. That is something that I am looking at, to evidence on what really works, so they can make informed ensure it is an even playing field. decisions about how best to spend that money effectively. Higher education has been referenced, particularly We will continue to support all groups that are held by my hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Laura back and ensure that schools can address the needs of Trott). I agree with her, but I stress that higher education each individual pupil. That is why we have injected so is not the only route for social mobility. However, our much more money into our education system recently. reforms, including the establishment of the Office for 373WH Social Mobility 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Social Mobility 374WH

[Michelle Donelan] 5.28 pm Sir David Evennett: I thank the Minister for her Students, open access to higher education. They are comments and for the information she has given us, and about bringing in greater competition and choice and I also thank everybody who has participated in today’s promoting higher-quality education for all. I take her debate, which is vitally important. We need to work point about it depending on the type of institution that together across parties to ensure that we achieve what young people get into, and that is something we have we all want, which is to make sure that the deprived specifically been targeting over recent years. The figures areas have the best opportunities for young people and have demonstrated success: in 2019, 18-year-olds from to create aspiration and opportunities for people to disadvantaged backgrounds were 62% more likely to maximise their life chances. We need to do that in many enter full-time higher education. and varied ways. Finally, turning to the world of work, I share the We have had a very good debate this afternoon on concern of my right hon. Friend the Member for how we view social mobility, how we think about it and Bexleyheath and Crayford that privately educated how we should go forward. Members from all parts of individuals continue to be over-represented in professional the House have raised many issues, and I thank them occupations. That is something we have tried to target for giving us more food for thought. There should be through our career education reforms. We have made more opportunities to discuss the issue, and it should be great strides in recent years to improve careers advice a top priority. I welcome the Minister saying that the for young people based on the Gatsby benchmarks. Government have social mobility as a top priority. We Through the Careers & Enterprise Company, we have should all be working to ensure that all young people established 40 career hubs. The latest state of the nation have real opportunities to make the most of their lives report concluded that schools and colleges have improved and the most of the opportunities that we can give in every aspect of their career provision, with some of them. Through that, they can succeed and then our the most disadvantaged communities among the highest country and our communities can succeed. By working performers. together, they will have a fulfilled life and really achieve In conclusion, and to allow my right hon. Friend a their maximum potential. moment to sum up, I thank him for calling this important Question put and agreed to. and crucial debate, which has rightly ranged across the actions that we are taking to spread opportunities at all Resolved, stages of a young person’s life. The Government and I That this House has considered social mobility. are committed to providing all young people with the tools that they need to reach their full potential and 5.29 pm access the opportunities that they deserve. Sitting adjourned. 27WS Written Statements 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Written Statements 28WS

framework. Moreover, business to business services, which pose a Written Statements low risk to individuals and have limited opportunities to address harm, will not have requirements placed on them. Our proposals will introduce higher levels of protection for Wednesday 12 February 2020 children. We will expect companies to use a proportionate range of tools including age assurance and age verification technologies to prevent children from accessing age-inappropriate or harmful content. This would achieve our objective of keeping children DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT safe online, and would also fulfil the aims of the Digital Economy Act to prevent children from being exposed to online pornography. Online Harms This is a complex policy area, and work is not yet complete. We will publish a full response to the consultation in the spring, setting out further policy details ahead of legislation. We will continue to engage with interested parties as we shape future The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, proposals. Culture, Media and Sport (Matt Warman): My right Our proposals to tackle online harms is part of the Government’s hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, wider work to develop a strategic approach for governing digital Media and Sport, Baroness Morgan of Cotes, has made technologies. We will ensure our overarching regulatory regime is the following Statement: fundamentally pro-innovation and agile, adapting dynamically to the rapid emergence of new technologies. DCMS and the Home Office are today publishing an initial response to the Online Harms White Paper consultation. This is I am placing copies of the response in the libraries of both an important step towards our aim of making the UK the safest Houses, and it will also be available on gov.uk. place in the world to be online, and the best place to start and [HCWS113] grow a digital business. There is widespread public consensus that online platforms must do more to ensure their services are safe for all users, particularly children, while promoting freedom of expression EDUCATION online. Furthermore, a recent Ofcom report showed that 61% of adults and 79% of 12 to 15 year old internet users reported having had at least one potentially harmful experience online in the Children’s Social Care previous 12 months. The White Paper set out world-leading proposals to tackle these issues by introducing a statutory duty of care. This will The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson): ensure that companies have appropriate systems and processes in Children and young people who need a social worker, place to improve the safety of their users. The duty of care would and who are in or have left care are some of the most be enforced by an independent regulator. vulnerable in our society.It is a priority for this Government Weconsulted extensively following the White Paper’s publication. that these children and young people have the support, Today’s initial response reflects the views of a diverse range of protection and care they deserve. I want to update the stakeholders, including organisations, industry experts, civil society, House on recent developments in this space. academia, and the public. Review of care In the response, we set out the direction of travel on a number of the key themes from the consultation. In particular, we are The importance of children’s social care was signalled announcing that we are minded to appoint Ofcom as the online in the Government manifesto. Wemust challenge ourselves harms regulator. Ofcom is a highly respected regulator, possessing to do all we can in making sure every child who needs a the expertise, experience and independence needed to take on this social worker and who enters care has the best possible new role. chance to succeed in life, realising the benefit to individuals The Ofcom board have appointed Dame Melanie Dawes as its and society of overcoming such adversity in childhood. new chief executive. Given that the Government will be considering the detail of this new regulatory agenda and the role Ofcom will That is why we are committed to undertaking a have, and now that the new chief executive is in place, the review at the earliest opportunity. I can confirm that Government would like a chair to be able to oversee the successful this review will be bold and broad, taking a fundamental implementation of any changes in full. Lord Burns has therefore look across children’s social care, with the aim of better agreed to step down to enable a new chair to be in place by the supporting, protecting and improving the outcomes of end of this year. He has also agreed to stay on until the new chair vulnerable children and young people. is in post to ensure a smooth transition. I can confirm that we are moving forward with plans The response also sets out some of the explicit safeguards and for this review, and that it will be independently led. We measures which the regulator will take to protect freedom of expression, and to ensure that the online environment remains will ensure the review reflects the experiences of those one in which open and vibrant discourse can take place. As part who have needed a social worker and been in care, of our proposals, we will ensure there are safeguards in the putting children, young people and their families at its legislation to ensure companies and the new regulator have a clear centre. We will set out further details in due course. responsibility to protect users’ rights online. We will also introduce Reforms to unregulated provision for children in care greater transparency about the removal of content, with the opportunity for users to appeal, which we are confident will help and care leavers to safeguard freedom of expression. The review will allow for careful consideration of Additionally, the consultation reinforced the importance of challenges faced across children’s social care, and while clarity and certainty for businesses. We are mindful of the need it is an early priority, we will take time to get this right. for proportionate regulation, and our regulatory framework will There are, however, issues that cannot wait and target those platforms which present the greatest risk. The “duty of care” will therefore only apply to companies that facilitate the require immediate action. Every child and young person sharing of user generated content, for example through comments, should have access to a stable and secure placement in forums or video sharing. Our analysis so far suggests that fewer accommodation that can meet their needs and, most than 5% of UK businesses will be in scope of this regulatory importantly, keep them safe. 29WS Written Statements 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Written Statements 30WS

These placements are an important step towards The programme has found that the quality of care independence for older children. However,we are concerned offered to people with a learning disability sometimes that independent and semi-independent settings are not falls short of the standards we expect. The existence of always good enough, putting children and young people the LeDeR programme demonstrates our ongoing at risk. We are particularly concerned about increases in commitment to ensure that people with learning disabilities the number of children under the age of 16 being placed can access the best possible quality care and support. in this type of provision, with 660 children who were The third annual LeDeR report covers the period aged under 16 when their placement started placed in 1 July 2016 to 31 December 2018, with a particular this provision during 2018-19. This is why we are consulting focus on deaths in 2018. From 1 July 2016 to 31 December on banning the use of independent and semi-independent 2018, 4,302 “in-scope”deaths were notified to the LeDeR placements for children and young people under the age programme. The majority of these, 2,926, were notified of 16. in 2018. In 71 of the cases reviewed, people received Reform is needed as a matter of urgency to ensure care that fell so far short of expected good practice that this provision is being used appropriately and meets the it significantly impacted on their well-being or directly needs of the young people placed there. I will today be contributed to their cause of death. publishing a consultation that invites views on a set of Based on the evidence from completed LeDeR reviews, new measures to ensure appropriate use of these placements. the third annual report made twelve recommendations The proposals include introducing new checks and balances for the education, health and care system. As I said at into the system, including national standards for providers the time of the LeDeR report’s publication, it is essential and measures to drive up the quality of provision. that we take appropriate actions to learn from the issues Our proposals include: raised by the LeDeR programme. In the Government banning the use of independent and semi-independent response, we have set out how we and our system placements for children and young people under the age partners are taking action to deliver the improvements of 16; to services that will make a real and significant difference driving up the quality of support offered in independent and to people’s lives. Actions identified relate to reviewing semi-independent provision, through the introduction of guidance; publishing new data on the progress of LeDeR new national standards, and ensuring that these standards reviews and sharing best practice. are enforced, and that young people’sinterests are appropriately In November, we set out our most significant action represented by their independent reviewing officer (IRO); in response to the third annual LeDeR report, when we introducing new measures so that local authorities and local committed to introducing the Oliver McGowan mandatory police forces liaise before a placement in such provision is training in learning disability and autism for all health made; and and social care staff. This training is named after Oliver giving Ofsted new legal powers to act against illegal providers. McGowan, in recognition of his story, his family’s We are keen to hear views on the proposals and their tireless campaigning for better training for staff, and to impact. The consultation will be available at: https://consult. remember him and others whose lives were cut tragically education.gov.uk/unregulated-provision/unregulated- short. provision-children-in-care/. It will be open for response until 8 April. The Government remain committed to gather learning [HCWS110] from deaths reviewed under the LeDeR process ensuring that measures are put in place to address the persistent health inequalities that people with learning disabilities experience. Since the start of the LeDeR programme, HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE nearly 3,200 reviews have been completed and over 2,700 are currently in progress. Although increases in the number of reviews carried out is welcome, we Learning Disabilities Mortality Review acknowledge that the pace with which reviews are conducted needs to increase further. The Minister for Care (Caroline Dinenage): Government The LeDeR programme was introduced to ensure response to the third annual learning disabilities mortality that local, evidence-based action is taken to improve review (LeDeR) report. support for people with a learning disability, and while we clearly have a great deal further to go to improve Following the publication of the third annual report outcomes, we must continue to build on the momentum from the learning disabilities mortality review (LeDeR) of the past five years and work together to learn from programme on 21 May 2019, and the statement I made the past. Our response, published today, sets out how at the time, I am today pleased to be publishing the we will do that. Government’s response to that report. A copy of the response can be found at: https://www.parliament.uk/ [HCWS112] business/publications/written-questions-answers- statements/written-statements/ The LeDeR programme was established in 2015 to HOME DEPARTMENT help reduce early deaths and health inequalities for people with a learning disability by supporting local areas in England to review the deaths of people with a Jermaine Baker: Public Inquiry learning disability and to ensure that the learning from these reviews lead to improved health and care services. The programme is led by the University of Bristol and The Secretary of State for the Home Department commissioned by the Healthcare Quality Improvement (Priti Patel): I am announcing today the establishment Partnership (HQIP) on behalf of NHS England. by the Home Office of an inquiry, under the Inquiries 31WS Written Statements 12 FEBRUARY 2020 Written Statements 32WS

Act 2005, to investigate the circumstances of the death TRANSPORT of Jermaine Baker during a Metropolitan Police Service operation on 11 December 2015. Light Dues 2020-21 Establishing an inquiry is important to ensure that all of the relevant evidence can be properly considered as The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport part of an effective investigation into Mr Baker’s death. (Ms Nusrat Ghani): A strong and growing maritime industry is vital to the economy of the United Kingdom The inquiry will be chaired by His Honour Clement and it is critical that we treasure and protect this vital Goldstone, QC. HH Goldstone is a retired senior circuit artery if we are to remain a world-leading maritime judge who was appointed by the Lord Chief Justice on centre. 21 March 2019 to conduct the investigation and inquest The work of the General Lighthouse Authorities, into the death of Jermaine Baker. In accordance with which provide and maintain marine aids to navigation section 3(1)(a) of the Act, this inquiry will be undertaken and respond to new wrecks and navigation dangers in by HH Goldstone alone as chair. some of the busiest waters in the world, is crucial to underpinning that vision whilst maintaining our vigorous It has been necessary to establish an inquiry so as to safety record and continuously improving standards permit all relevant evidence to be heard. The inquiry of safety. will have the same scope as the current inquest, which Reductions in the three General Lighthouse Authorities’ will be suspended after the establishment of the inquiry. running costs have enabled the UK to reduce light dues I will place a copy of the terms of reference for the on four occasions since 2014. For 2020-21 I intend to inquiry in the Libraries of both Houses. freeze light dues rates at 37.5p per net registered tonne. This will mean that light dues will have fallen by 30% in The arrangements for the inquiry will now be a real terms since 2010. matter for the chair. The Home Office will provide Light dues rates will continue to be reviewed on an support and ensure that the inquiry has the resources annual basis to ensure that the General Lighthouse that it needs. Authorities are challenged to provide an effective and efficient service which offers value for money to light [HCWS111] dues payers. [HCWS109]

9MC Ministerial Corrections12 FEBRUARY 2020 Ministerial Corrections 10MC

Ms Dorries: We want more mental health nurses. In Ministerial Corrections fact, two weeks ago, I announced that the grant for those who want to work in mental health nursing will be Wednesday 12 February 2020 £8,000—they will get the upper tier. [Official Report, 6 February 2020, Vol. 671, c. 559.] Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Mid HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries): A further error has been identified in my response to the debate. Children’s Mental Health Week The correct information should have been: The following are extracts from the Adjournment debate on Children’s Mental Health Week on 6 February 2020. Ms Dorries: Wewant more mental health nurses. In fact, two weeks ago, I announced that the grant for those who Ms Dorries: By next year, 70,000 more children and want to work in mental health nursing will be £6,000. young people will be accessing specialist treatment each Paterson Inquiry year, compared with 2014-15. That equates to 35% of The following are extracts from questions following the children and young people with a mental health condition, statement on the Paterson Inquiry on 4 February 2020. and that is starting from zero. [Official Report, 6 February 2020, Vol. 671, c. 555.] Ms Dorries: I will say it again: we want people to speak up, we want trusts and the private sector to listen, and Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State then we want to act. It is the case that we can change this for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Mid culture and let whistleblowers know that we will protect Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries): them. We also have a line at the Department for people An error has been identified in my response to the to ring in on, because we want to hear from them. debate. The correct information should have been: Ms Dorries: As I say, Paterson practised between 1997 and 2011, and there was quite a long process of reporting and of concerns being raised about his behaviour Ms Dorries: By next year, 70,000 more children and and his practice. Eventually, somebody listened; I believe young people will be accessing specialist treatment each that it was a new chief executive at the Spire hospital year, compared with 2014-15. That equates to 35% of trust at the time. children and young people with a mental health condition, and that is starting from around 25%. [Official Report, 4 February 2020, Vol. 671, c. 208.] Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State Ms Dorries: We now have, in almost all A&Es across for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Mid the country—I think it is 97%—a mental health liaison Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries): worker. When somebody—a child or an adult—presents Errors have been identified in my responses to questions at A&E with a mental health condition, they are now following my statement. seen by an A&E mental health liaison officer. The correct information should have been: [Official Report, 6 February 2020, Vol. 671, c. 557.] Ms Dorries: I will say it again: we want people to Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State speak up, we want trusts and the private sector to listen, for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Mid and then we want to act. It is the case that we can Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries): change this culture and let whistleblowers know that we A further error has been identified in my response to will protect them. We also have a dedicated National the debate. Guardian phone line for people to ring in on, because we want to hear from them. The correct information should have been: Ms Dorries: As I say, Paterson practised between Ms Dorries: We now have, in almost all A&Es across 1997 and 2011, and there was quite a long process of the country—I think it is 97%—a mental health liaison reporting and of concerns being raised about his behaviour worker. When an adult presents at A&E with a mental and his practice. Eventually, somebody listened; I believe health condition, they are now seen by an A&E mental that it was a new chief executive at the Heart of England health liaison officer. NHS Foundation Trust at the time.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 12 February 2020

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 844 SCOTLAND—continued Engagements...... 844 Fisheries...... 842 Engagements...... 845 Leaving the EU ...... 841 Security, Defence and Foreign Policy Review...... 844 Maritime Security ...... 840 Renewable Energy...... 837 SCOTLAND...... 835 Taxation...... 841 Budget ...... 843 Trade...... 839 Child Poverty ...... 835 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 12 February 2020

Col. No. Col. No. DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 27WS HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 30WS Online Harms ...... 27WS Jermaine Baker: Public Inquiry...... 30WS EDUCATION...... 28WS Children’s Social Care ...... 28WS HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE...... 29WS TRANSPORT ...... 32WS Learning Disabilities Mortality Review...... 29WS Light Dues 2020-21...... 32WS MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Wednesday 12 February 2020

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE...... 9MC HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE—continued Children’s Mental Health Week ...... 9MC Paterson Inquiry ...... 10MC No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 19 February 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 671 Wednesday No. 26 12 February 2020

CONTENTS

Wednesday 12 February 2020

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 835]

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 835] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of Early Release) Bill (Business of the House) [Col. 856] Motion—(Robert Buckland) Amendment—(Mr Carmichael)—on a Division, negatived Motion agreed to

Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of Early Release) Bill [Col. 863] Motion for Second Reading—(Robert Buckland)—agreed to Not amended; read the Third time and passed

Marine Licensing [Col. 941] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall UK Fisheries [Col. 287WH] Education and Attainment of White Working-Class Boys [Col. 312WH] Leaseholders and Cladding [Col. 322WH] Support for Hill Farmers [Col. 349WH] Social Mobility [Col. 357WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 27WS]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 9MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]