Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Thursday 26 January 2017

Session 5

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Thursday 26 January 2017

CONTENTS Col. DECISION ON TAKING BUSINESS IN PRIVATE ...... 1 CROSS-PARTY GROUPS ...... 2

STANDARDS, PROCEDURES AND PUBLIC APPOINTMENTS COMMITTEE 2nd Meeting 2017, Session 5

CONVENER *Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)

DEPUTY CONVENER *Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)

COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) *Clare Haughey (Rutherglen) (SNP) *Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) *John Scott (Ayr) (Con) *Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

*attended

THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab) Linda Fabiani (East Kilbride) (SNP) Maurice Golden (West Scotland) (Con) Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con)

CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Douglas Wands

LOCATION The Adam Smith Room (CR5)

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Scottish Parliament Cross-party Groups

Standards, Procedures and 10:00 Public Appointments Committee The Convener: Item 2 is an evidence-taking session on four proposed cross-party groups. The Thursday 26 January 2017 first group to consider is the CPG on sexual health and blood-borne viruses. I welcome to the meeting [The Convener opened the meeting at 10:00] Kezia Dugdale MSP, who is a co-convener of the proposed group. I invite her to make an opening Decision on Taking Business in statement. Private Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab): Good morning. This is more nerve-wracking than First Minister’s The Convener (Clare Adamson): Good questions, so please be gentle. I am here to morning. Welcome to the second meeting in 2017 propose the establishment of a cross-party group of the Standards, Procedures and Public on sexual health and blood-borne viruses. No Appointments Committee. I remind everyone to other cross-party group looks specifically at those switch off or put to silent mobile phones and issues and there is a clear demand for that given electronic devices. the increasing number of HIV cases in Scotland. Over the past 10 years, the trend has not declined Agenda item 1 is a decision on taking business and 5,200 people live with HIV. Separately, in private. Are members content to take hepatitis C remains a persistent issue across the consideration of our work programme in private at country, with more than 35,000 people living with our next meeting? the condition, many of whom are unaware that Members indicated agreement. they have it. We can do a lot of work in this area. There would be some overlap with other cross- party groups. Clearly, there would be similarities with some of the issues that, for example, the cross-party group on health inequalities and, indeed, the cross-party group on LGBTI+—I am a member of that group—might look at. However, there is more than enough in the programme to demand or to justify a specific cross-party group, not least the rising issue of sexual health education and whether it should be compulsory in our curriculum, issues to do with sexual coercion and violence, digital health and pregnancy. We know that the Scottish Government is about to come forward with a whole new sexual health and blood-borne viruses framework, so there are obvious landmarks in the months and years ahead that the cross-party group could work around. Members will be aware from our pro forma that a wide range of organisations and groups are keen to participate in the cross-party working group. We have had a welcome offer from HIV Scotland to provide the secretariat. You will also be aware that two members of your committee are signed up to be prospective co-conveners of the group, and I am sure that they would diligently commit themselves to that task, too. The Convener: Thank you very much, Ms Dugdale. Do committee members have any questions? Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): As you rightly say, there is no question but that there is a real demand for the cross-party group. The groups and organisations that you

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have listed in your application have massive attract enough cross-party support to keep it amounts of experience in the field. Given that going, despite there being substantial issues to there will be so many experts supporting the discuss. It is relevant that the proposal that you group, how will you manage to make progress and have before you has representation of four political ensure that how the group moves forward is not parties, which is important in giving it impetus. taken over by the way in which one or two of the In our early discussions on our work organisations want to promote the issues? I think programme, we have talked about having joint that there is a commonality in this for everybody, meetings with other CPGs. With compulsory sex but what is important is that the issues are education, for example, there is a clear correlation progressed. between what the CPG on sexual health would Kezia Dugdale: That is a fair question. At our like to discuss and the priorities that the CPG on first meeting, at which we contemplated the steps children and young people, which I convene, might to establish a cross-party group, many of the be working on. There is a lot of common ground. I organisations that are listed on the form were in believe that the CPG on drug and alcohol misuse attendance—in fact, we had more than 60 is being re-established, and there is some organisations or individuals representing commonality there, as well. organisations there. As chair, I took the approach By having open discussions, clear priorities and to have as open and discursive a first meeting as a definitive work programme, we can have our we possibly could, giving everyone the opportunity own defined agenda in the Parliament and seek to to put forward their organisations’ priorities on work with other long-established CPGs. what the cross-party group should work on. We collated all that information and, having written it Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green): I am very all down on a piece of paper, it was clear that happy to be involved in the CPG and very happy there were common themes. that it is being re-established. There is a legitimate concern in the group that, During session 2, the first CPG on sexual health given that there are so many organisations had some opportunities to work with the CPG on working in the field of HIV, HIV issues might international development, particularly on how become more dominant than hepatitis C issues. sexual and reproductive rights, as well as HIV, are We could easily manage that as a cross-party dealt with at the global level. Is there the chance group of conveners and ensure that the work for some of that work between the two groups to programme reflects the priorities of all the groups be done again, particularly given current events: involved. the Scottish Government’s refresh of its international development strategy and the US’s Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab): threats to withdraw funding from any organisations It is not often that your own party leader appears that are involved in sexual and reproductive before you at a committee, so there are one or two health, particularly around contraception and things that I would like to get off my chest. abortion? [Laughter.] Kezia Dugdale: When you look at how well In all seriousness, the issue is important. From attended and thorough the recent members’ the discussions that I have had with Waverley business debate on world AIDS day was, and at Care—Milestone house is in my constituency—I how it covered a mix of domestic and international know that the issues around blood-borne viruses, issues in that context, it is quite clear that there is in particular HIV, are quite pronounced. I was quite an appetite in the Parliament not just to look at shocked to hear that my demographic is most at what is happening at home but to look abroad on risk, because of rising complacency and other these issues. issues. The case for the group is well made. Collaboration with the CPG on international The committee is aware that there is a large development did not come up in our early number of CPGs that focus on health issues. How discussions, but it is clear that there have been do you see the group working collaboratively with developments that put such collaboration higher other groups and using the multitude of interests up the priority list. Again, that is something for the to develop opportunities? members of the CPG to determine. Kezia Dugdale: There are two things to say Clare Haughey (Rutherglen) (SNP): You are to about that. In the previous parliamentary session, be commended for setting up the CPG, which is we had a CPG on sexual health and BBV, of full of merit. which Patrick Harvie and I were co-conveners. It worked fairly effectively for the first two years of There has been a huge growth in sexually the five-year session, as I remember it, and then transmitted diseases among people aged over 50. the rules on the number of parties that had to be I see that paediatric and adolescent health groups involved in a CPG changed and we were unable to want to be members of your group and you have

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been talking about education and contraception, Fabiani MSP, the proposed convener of the CPG, which may not affect the over-50s so much. Have and I invite her to make an opening statement. you put any thought into how you would engage Linda Fabiani (East Kilbride) (SNP): Thank that demographic and what groups that represent you, convener. The CPG on architecture and the that age group you might invite along? built environment has been sustained since the Kezia Dugdale: LGBT Health and Wellbeing beginning of the Scottish Parliament. However, I does some work in the area, with regard to people say up front that, although it should have been living with HIV. Of course, advances in medicine easy to meet the deadline, we missed it—hence mean that many people can live well for much my appearance here today. longer, so there is a growing group of people in The CPG’s purpose is to recognise Scotland’s the over-50 category who are living with HIV or are places. The group brings together planners, exposed to BBV. Those issues were put on our list architects, surveyors and everyone who is of priorities at the first meeting. It is fair to say that involved in Scotland’s built environment. The they were not in the top 5, but they are on the list. group has been very successful and we have There is scope to do more work in that area. always had good membership. We have a broad Daniel Johnson mentioned Milestone house, and range of stakeholders who regularly come to our Waverley Care works in the area of the ageing meetings, from which we produce reports that are population. I guess that we could do work on that circulated to all MSPs. with the CPG on older people, age and ageing. That is not considered to be high up the list, but Over the piece, we have been involved in, for we are very much open to it. example, last year’s festival of architecture and we have engaged with the Government and all the It is worth saying that one of the other issues stakeholders who are involved whenever there are that were raised at the first meeting for the Government consultations. It is always about proposed CPG was the degree to which the list of promoting good spaces for people in Scotland to participants was exhaustive. People asked about live and work in. how we could advertise the CPG and ensure that everybody who might have an interest in the issue The Convener: Thank you, Ms Fabiani. I invite knew of the CPG’s existence and how to questions from committee members. participate in it. You have identified an area in Daniel Johnson: Our built environment is very which we could probably do more work to ensure that people living in older communities know of the important, and the esteem in which architecture is held is equally important. I will take this CPG’s existence and know that it could represent opportunity to air a personal hobby-horse of mine. their interests as well. There is a bit of work to be done to ensure that The Convener: There are no further questions mid-20th century architecture is elevated in from the committee, so I thank Ms Dugdale for her esteem. I still lament the loss of the Scottish attendance. We have established that sexually Provident building on the corner of St Andrew transmitted diseases affect all demographics and Square, which I thought was a remarkable that it is an important issue for everyone in building. However, sadly, it has been lost to us Scotland. mainly because it was built in the wrong decade for many people. I think that, if it had been an We will deliberate on the CPG under item 3 older building, we would have protected it. Have today, and you will be informed of our decision as you given any thought to including in your group’s quickly as possible. Again, I thank you for your work programme looking at mid-20th century attendance architecture, such as brutalist architecture, and Kezia Dugdale: I thank you for your time. how we can change the perception of those buildings? The Convener: I suspend the meeting briefly to allow witnesses to change over. Linda Fabiani: That is something that comes up fairly often. You are right that there is not often a recognition of how excellent architecture is in the 10:10 modern context. Even where our Parliament is Meeting suspended. situated, we have an excellent example of more modern architectural work just across the road in 10:11 the Basil Spence flats, but they are not recognised as excellent architecture. On resuming— That is an on-going issue, but we try to promote The Convener: The second group for such architecture as well. For example, as part of consideration by the committee this morning is a the year of architecture, there was a list of proposed CPG on architecture and the built Scotland’s 100 favourite places. It was quite environment. I welcome to the meeting Linda uplifting to see that people have started to

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recognise more modern structures as being 10:17 architecturally brilliant. In fact, I might as well say On resuming— while I am here that the list included two structures in East Kilbride, one being the Dollan baths. The Convener: The third group to consider is the proposed cross-party group on Nordic countries. I welcome Maurice Golden MSP to the 10:15 committee and invite him to make an opening It is an on-going issue and part of the group’s statement about the proposed group. remit is very much about the appreciation of how important it is to have decent, good places in our Maurice Golden (West Scotland) (Con): The built environment—and, indeed, in our overall objective of the proposed cross-party group landscapes, because it is about more than just on Nordic countries is looking at all these buildings and where they are. “To promote political, cultural, educational and You are absolutely right—perhaps you could come environmental links between Scotland and Nordic along to our group and put your point forward. Countries; and to foster ties between Scottish and Nordic politicians.” Daniel Johnson: I may well do that. As members can see from the registration form, John Scott (Ayr) (Con): I declare a slight we have achieved cross-party support for the interest, as my degree was in engineering. Given group. I have met the relevant consuls for the the natural tensions that exist, do you invite civil Nordic nations, which—for the avoidance of engineers along to bring the different groups doubt—we are defining as Iceland, Finland, together? Norway, Sweden and Denmark. The consuls are Linda Fabiani: Excuse my smile—having been very keen for the group to be established. I have involved in the construction industry myself, also spoken to relevant societies, as well as developing housing, I did not mean anything businesses operating in Scotland that are linked to worse than that the minute that someone said an those nations. engineer was coming to a meeting, we thought, The Convener: Thank you very much. I invite “Oh no, here we go.” [Laughter.] Sorry about that. questions from committee members. John Scott: That makes my point for me. I am Alexander Stewart: There are already a sure that the group will work to pursue an inclusive number of great ties between Scotland and the approach— Nordic countries, especially in relation to trade and Linda Fabiani: It has been a very inclusive culture. The registration form refers to the digital group. We had interaction with the cross-party economy. How will you engage on the digital group on construction over the period in which the economy and how will you progress things to two groups were in operation. ensure that you can capture everything? We are advanced in some aspects, but the Nordic I am pretty sure that there are engineering countries are even more advanced than us. organisations in the membership list—or that there were, last time round—but, to be very honest, I do Maurice Golden: That is a good point. The not think that we had much attendance from that cross-party group will seek to address a range of section of the membership. I will very much take issues, including the digital economy. Where that point on board and I shall perhaps bully the possible, we will link up with other cross-party architects into being more proactive about inviting groups that have a specific focus on a theme, engineers. whether it be connectivity, health or renewables. We will be dealing with a geographical region The Convener: As members have no further rather than a thematic issue and we will seek questions, I thank Linda Fabiani very much for her synergies for parliamentarians and other attendance. interested stakeholders. I genuinely think that it I recognise your passion and commitment to this will be a two-way learning process. There is much area over the years of the Parliament. We will take that Scotland does where we are leading the way, a final decision at item 3. You will be informed of and vice versa. We can learn from those the decision on the proposed cross-party group respective nations about the interesting and then. I suspend the meeting briefly to allow innovative projects that they are carrying out. witnesses to change over. Clare Haughey: I note from the registration form that two individuals are noted as members of the group: the honorary consul of Finland and a 10:17 member of MSP staff. You said that you had Meeting suspended. reached out to other consuls. Why have they not been listed as members of the group?

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Maurice Golden: Those are the people who interested parties in the wider Nordic region. That attended the initial meeting of the cross-party would be entirely appropriate and we are flexible group. After today, the formalisation of the group enough to accommodate it. We would like the will give confidence to the other consuls to relevant Nordic countries to lead discussions on become involved. As members will appreciate, particular areas, and we have discussed with them stakeholders outwith Parliament may not be aware some of the subject areas that they would like to of a cross-party group until it is established. There lead on. We would also link in with the are a number of honorary consuls—people who ambassadors as and when they come to Scotland. are effectively doing a full-time job in addition to The Convener: I thank Mr Golden for attending. their membership of groups such as this. The The committee is delighted that we are not other aspect of the process is to reach out to the considering applications for five or six CPGs on relevant embassies, which will provide the individual countries, so congratulations on bringing authority to join. I expect the group’s membership the group together. As someone who attended a to increase. number of the Nordic horizons events in the Clare Haughey: We often hear that it is outside previous session of Parliament, the issues are organisations that lobby MSPs for a group, and certainly of interest to me. We will take a decision who say, “This would be an interesting cross-party on the group under agenda item 3 and you will be group.” Given that only one honorary consul is a informed of our decision as soon as possible. member, where is the drive for this cross-party I suspend the meeting briefly to allow the group coming from? witnesses to change over. Maurice Golden: As is referred to in my register of interests, prior to entering Parliament I did a 10:26 project with the Chartered Institution of Wastes Management to look at the application of the Meeting suspended. circular economy in nations similar to Scotland. As part of that study, I spent significant time in 10:26 Finland and Denmark, and realised that there is much that we can learn from those countries, for On resuming— example on district heating. The Convener: The final group to consider this On members more widely, Angus MacDonald morning is the proposed CPG on walking, cycling MSP has lived in Norway and has a keen interest and buses. I welcome Graham Simpson MSP and in the country. From talking to each other, we invite him to make an opening statement. realised that there is much to learned from such Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con): I discussions. The proposed cross-party group has will speak from the heart, rather than from notes, if been led by members, which is entirely that is okay. Before I became an MSP, I was appropriate. That is why the consuls are coming described as the cycling tsar for South on board with the relevant members of the Lanarkshire, when we set up a cycling partnership. Scottish Parliament. In fact, I still hold that position. When I became an Clare Haughey: What plans do you have to MSP, I was keen to see whether there was a reach out to organisations, as no organisations are similar group in the Parliament. After asking currently members of the CPG? around, I discovered that there had been a group in the previous session and that it dealt only with Maurice Golden: The obvious organisation to cycling. I found out that Alison Johnstone and meet, which was discussed at the cross-party Claudia Beamish were the conveners, and so I got group’s initial meeting, would be the Nordic chatting to them. horizons group. There are other stakeholders and groups in society that we would like to meet, as Where we are now has been quite a long time well as relevant businesses and chambers of coming. There was a feeling that the previous commerce for those nations. The other deputy group was, to be fair, a bit of a talking shop, and conveners and I will seek to speak to those we wanted to make it a bit better. In discussions, groups. we thought that the group should be not just about cycling but about sustainable transport. Therefore, Patrick Harvie: In the list of countries that you as members can see, we have widened the remit identify as the Nordic countries, you mention the to include walking and buses. The idea is to get full members of the Nordic Council. However, the issue out there and on the agenda. We want to there are other countries that are observer publicise the issue and get it in front of the public. members. Does the CPG intend to establish some It will not be a talking shop. kind of relationship with the Nordic Council? The Convener: Thank you. Maurice Golden: That would definitely be beneficial. As you point out, there are other

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Daniel Johnson: I think that it is worth while to situation, because, as is the case in your area and have a CPG on alternative forms of transport, mine, a large number of buses operate but, from sustainable transport and active transport, but I time to time, things become a little bit difficult want to ask about the remit. I understand why you when services are streamlined or reduced, which want to extend it beyond cycling, but you seem to can result in communities feeling that they are have been somewhat selective about the being left out. How will you manage that? The additional modes of transport. Why did you choose issue is bound to appear on your agenda. to identify walking, cycling and buses? You used Graham Simpson: There are different the term “sustainable transport”, which might situations in different parts of Scotland. Edinburgh better reflect the broad spectrum of modes of appears to have a very good bus service but other transport that you might look at. parts of the country do not. Part of the role of our group will perhaps be to shine a light on that and 10:30 come up with suggestions for how things can be Graham Simpson: That is a fair question, but I improved in other parts of the country. understand that there is already a group on rail. I Alexander Stewart: As I said, I think that there suppose that it would have been obvious to will be some real opportunities for that to happen. I include rail, but because of the group that already wish you well. exists, we did not include it and decided instead to limit the scope to cycling, walking and buses. Clare Haughey: I wonder, given that you raised the subject of Edinburgh, whether you have Daniel Johnson: The list of organisations that thought about including someone to do with trams will be members includes a wide range of groups in the membership list? and voluntary organisations. However, I notice that Stagecoach is on the list. That raises an alert with Graham Simpson: We have not discussed that, regard to the possibility of commercial interest, but now that you have mentioned it that might be a given the scope of that company. Has any thought thought. been given to that? The Convener: As there are no further Graham Simpson: We cannot avoid the fact questions, I thank Mr Simpson for his attendance. that there are commercial operators that run buses It is worth putting on record for the information of in large parts of Scotland. Certainly, in the part of everyone who is involved in cross-party groups Scotland that I live in, that is just the reality. I think that they have a duty to inform the clerks, within a that it would be remiss if we did not invite them 30-day period, of increases in membership. along. Our final decision will be taken under agenda I think that the list of organisations will grow. As item 3 today. We will inform Mr Simpson of our you can see, it is quite bicycle orientated, because decision as quickly as possible. of the people who were on the CPG that the Under agenda item 3, we will consider the proposed group follows on from, so I think that it proposed cross-party groups. First, is the needs to be expanded. committee content to approve the proposed CPG Daniel Johnson: I think that the range of on sexual health and blood-borne viruses? organisations is commendable and I do not Members indicated agreement. disagree that, clearly, there are commercial operators who operate buses—that is a fact of the John Scott: I would just like to put in a word for landscape. My concern is really more to do with the over-60s. the fact that you have only one such operator on The Convener: That is noted, Mr Scott. the list. I wonder whether that needs to be considered further. Have other bus operators been Secondly, do we agree to approve the proposed invited? Would it perhaps be better if a trade body CPG on architecture and the built environment? were a member of the group rather than individual Members indicated agreement. commercial interests? The Convener: Do members have comments Graham Simpson: That is a fair point. on the proposed CPG on Nordic countries? However, as I say, the list that you have before you is not the end of the membership. I agree with Clare Haughey: Previously, we have asked your point and will take it on board. proposed CPGs that have extremely narrow or small memberships to come back to us in a year. I Alexander Stewart: It is laudable that you are think that the membership list of the CPG on trying to expand the remit from just cycling to Nordic countries would come under that criterion. walking and buses. That gives you lots of opportunities, but will also give you some The Convener: I concur and suggest that we challenges. That is especially true of the bus issue the same wording to that CPG as we have

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done to others with small memberships. With that The Convener: That is duly noted. The group is in mind, do we agree to approve the proposed in a strange situation, in that it is a sort of follow-on CPG on Nordic countries? group from a previous CPG. I believe that it will expand its remit to cover the areas that have been Members indicated agreement. put forward. Are we content to approve the CPG The Convener: Do members have comments on walking, cycling and buses? on the proposed CPG on cycling, walking and Members indicated agreement. buses? The Convener: I thank everyone for their Daniel Johnson: This is certainly not an attendance today. objection, because the group is worth while, but I think that the scope of the group is quite particular. Meeting closed at 10:36. I think that the group might want to expand that scope, and I would welcome it if that happened.

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