Feminism in Brasil Today' the kina of discrimination that women still sufferin . The government's recognition Translation by CHRISTOPHER PETERSON of the Councils was the first step towards draffing public policies to meet the needs of the female population, in addition to a REF: Atter 20 yearsof feministstruggle. what concept that is almost taken for granted nave been the real gains for women? now, namely gender planning. Hildete Pereira: One of the issues that was REF: Strictly speaking, the integrated raised in the 1970s - when the movement Program for VVomen's Health Core (PAISM), regained the impetus that dated back the first major public policy in Brazil devoted forty yearsto the women'ssuffragestruggle specifically to women, prececled the - was that of changes in the Brazilian founding of the Councils... Constitution. There was a real gain in the AB: Although the PAISM had already been 1988 Constitution, even though women's ciratted before - by feminists - it was only daily Iives nave cnangeci very little. disseminated around the country atter the Angeia Borba: I think this really was an National Council (on Women • s Rights) went important triumph forthis period, even given into action and there nad beendevelopments such limitations, since the majority of the in the State Councils and Coordinating articles in the Constitution have still not Boards. But there is another aspect that been backed by enabling legislation, a should be mentioned. I would not say that situation which is Ieading to tremendous our real gains were limited merely to legal, problems. For example, the entire Social formal. or constitutional achievements. Security issue is still pending. The proposed HP: Indeed. there was a cultural change in legislation to regulate working conditions Brazil regarding the women'sissue. In the 1970s, for female domestic servants and rural to say you were a feminist you nad to be workers hos still not been discussed by almostapologetic. It'snot like that any more. Congress. However : there nave been There nas been a real change in this sense. positive developments in the State Jacqueline Pitanguy: Now, just what kind of Constitutions and enabling legislation that notion of reality is implicit in this question? I have allowed for gains that were not would rather begin with something that incluaed in the Federal Constitution. preclatea the Integrated Program for REF: Can the Councils (on Women s Rights) Women's Health. Core, the National ais° be consiciered a victory? Council, and the State Councils, namely, a AB: Of course, the Councils gavevisibility to change in affitude by a significant share of Brazilian women in relation to the image of teminism in Brazilian societv. It is obvious to Interviewers from Revista Estudos Feministas in this debate inciuded Lena Lavinas. Maria Luiza Heilborn. me that none of thiswould have nappened and Bila Sorj. The idea of its realizotion was taken and been sustained if there nad not from the last dossier theme, ' Today' (vol. 2, emerged a new social identity among n° 3/94), which was an internotional discussion. To Brazilian women. lt is also increasingly think about feminism in Brazil toaay. we neld a difficult for me to cleal with the category of round-table in Rio deJaneiro, with colleagues of this town, only. Unfortunately, Rosisko Darcv ae Oliveira "women" in a homogeneous way, but the couldn't attend. fact is that women of ali different social

YEAR 7 1 64 1" SEMESTER 99 shades have perceived this new identity, issue as more of a convergence, along the this new position. lines you mentioned, where lhe struggle This new reality reflects a change in both specifically provides for an understanding self-perception and social perception of of (and legitimacy for) processes that are women's position in society. As contradictory much broader than the feminist struggle jtself. as it may seem, this reality is medem in REF: The struggle for rights based on an many senses. As for our gains in thelegislative ideal of equality between men and women sphere, they are both achievements and has been criticized because it does not frustrations at the same time, but they are recognize the right to difference. This still relevant. For example, the Council has theoretical debate of course has strategic played a role in social change, albeit in a implications for lhe Brazilian feminisi move- country where what is built today can be ment. Just what might such implications be? tom down tomorrow. HP: This issue of difference raises some In order to illustrate this kind of instability, doubts in my mind. We are different which is characteristic of Brazilian society biologically. Se what is feminine nature? I as a whole, we might cite the point in time do not know. My biologicalself was already in which the National Council on Women's defined when I was born... In relation to Rights managed to reach 250 schools in maternity, we are different. What are lhe lhe public school system with a program other differences? Are we less aggressive? called "A Debate in School on Women's Sweeter? More submissive? Is that lhe Role in Society". This program appeared to difference? work and to be in place for good, since it JP: 1 would like to distinguish between was linked to the local school systems, had equality and equity. When ene talksabout lis own infrastructure, and did not depend equality, one abolishes differences. To on Federal resources. Ali of a sudden, it speak of equity means lhe possibility of simply evaporated. Sol think that the notion justice, if we might use another concept, of reality cannot just hinge on that of even while one acknowledges differences. continuity. The 's struggle, as I see HP: I disagree with Jacqueline. As I see II, a it today, seeks precisely lhe political real gain has to be something tangible, construction of difference and is therefore permanent. The issue of legislation is able to preach equity. tangible, it's a feminist struggle dating back REF: lhe debate on difference, ai least in 20 years. But many things changed without the French context, appeared in a direct interference from feminism. We were discussion where lhe massive entry of 11% of lhe labor force back in 1970, and women into lhe labor market supposedly now we're 39%. This is a real figure. Women meant that they shared a male world. have taken to the streets, to public life, to Furthermore, that the right to difference becoming breadwinners. meant imagining that there was an entire JP: But this wasn't because of the Councils female culture linked to private life, feelings, or Coordinating Boards, or even because subjectivity, motherhood, etc. This supposedly of lhe feminist movement itself. meant that lhe feminist struggle would no HP: That is true, but things go hand in hand. longer focus exclusively on formal rights - lhe feminist struggle provided legitimacy accesstojobs, lack of career discrimination, for women's desire to work outside the the right to vote and run for office, etc. - but home. To take lhe exemplo of lhe labor that it would also contemplate this market, some articles in labor treaties and dimension of feminine culture. some demands by working women JP: I'm not very familiar with the French predated the appearance of a self- debate, but ralhem with lhe American de- ascribed feminist movement in Brazil. Such bate, which they reter to as Radical demands are linked to the struggle for Feminism. There you get into lhe notion of women's social enhancement. I see the essence, you deal with this idea of

ESTUDOS FEMINISTAS 1 65 s I /99 difference transcending History, and you pointed to our specificity, and this even end up in a kind of metaphysical essence. protected us from political repression. I have an ideological proPlem with This Today, the issue is being raised in other view of difference. So I do not go along terms. The perspective of specificity has with , the kind of feminism lost its strategic value and hos become an that reestablished an idea of the absolute, issue of feminine essence. There is a new an idea of transcendence of History based agenda that is being built on the basis of on a feminine essence and which thus leoas this view. But it nas still not won out. to complicated political consequences. I REF: But there is a feminist discourse today feel closer to another kind of feminism. MV that ascribes to women a priority commitment experience in the United States was in the to ethics, anti-bellicism, defense of the New York-New jersey area. I belonged to environment, sofidarity, compassion. How a group of human-rights and women' s- can these be developed into a political rights activists. It was quite a peculiar group. agenda? There wasan attempt to make the women's AB: What are the perverse effects of this issue a general issue. The big agenda, the essentialist ideal in a poor. underdeveloped big challenge. was no Ionger to particula- country with thousands of contradictions? rize the women • s issue, but to make the The movement's major contribution has genaer perspective present on any agen- been this ability to exercise a precise da. whether national or International. If you nistorical vision, an idea of circumstance, were discussing violence, vou had to carry negotiation, alliance something that into this debate on violence the issue of the Brazilian feminists have learned and genaer perspective and not build a deba- im p roved. And this is something that te on genaer and vioience. The some was essentialism condemns, indirectly. Feminism true for laPor, the environment, etc. in Brazil has succeeded in dealing well with REF: How ao you see this in Brazil? the idea of good and evil, just and unjust. 312 Here, on the contrary, I see the We admit ambiguity In the relationship reconstruction of little ghettoes: women among people. The notion of essence, on andthe environment, women and violence, the contrary, conjures up the absolute. This women and health. 1 mean, rather than horrible thing of extremes - of gooa versus raising the gender perspective in different evil - that this idea ot essence inaugurates issues, you particularize the issue. in my was not prectominant before. Nowadays, opinion, wnen you construct a particular such absoiutist juagments are expressed fieia, vou admit an essence. This kind ot ali the time in the movement. Any kind of teminism is so essentiai ana untransiatabie action receives some kind of judgment in In terms of a more general logic that it has the nome of good or evil. And there is no become a particular arena of knowledge, political Oasis TO this. of struggle, of strategy, of an agencia. it is HP: i wouid like to move an oloservation. olovious that here in Brazil the pathways for ECO-92 gave a lot of em phasis to this kind building feminism nave alvvays been of discourse. A current hasthus developed completely different. Feminism was built in that Nas begun to work with the construction the midst of a struggle against the of difference. The equality we seek is vis-a- dictatorship, for social rights. for social vis the law: "different yet not uneaual" was justice. In Brazil, sucn characteristics were our motto in the (1988) Constitution. not so acute or so marked as was abre to However, we had not elaborated cleady perceive them in the United States, on what our real differences were. HP: 1 disagree. From 1975 to 1980. the AB: In fact. there was an alternative to strategy of particurarizing the field was Articie 5 in the Constitution that read. "We important, because it callea attention to are equai in the eyes of the law." The the specificity of the feminine issue. in the alternative reading was, "Men and women miast of the struggie for democracy, we are in fact equal in the eyes of the law, but

YEAR 7 1 66 SEMESTER 99 historical differences must be acknowled- debate over representation in the movement ged, and it is the state's responsibility to act has always been a deficate issue, in the sense upon these historical inequalities." This de- of denying hierarchical forms of participation bate has sprung up in some political and thus characterizing it as radical contexts where women are forced by the democracy. Butwhile thiswastheinspiration contingencies of activism itself to debate forthe feminist movement in the beginning, with men. For example, in frade union and the currently proposed institutionalized political party spheres. At the time, we practice of feminism demands a rethinking. were unable to assess the scope of this How does the issue of representation work wording. If we had affirmed not only the inthis case? B)A consequence of thisprocess principie of equality, but also the need to of institutionalization and professionalization make repairs for historical forms of of feminist practice may be the isolation of discrimination, we would have lett the door these feminists from the movement and its open for a body of legislation based on problems. How do you view this issue? affirmativeaction, or positive discrimination. HP: Concerning the problem of represen- HP: I believe that our difference is in relation tation in the feminist movement, we would to maternity. And this would require a have to think back to the 1970s, when specific agenda. Why? Because to have leadership in reflection groups was denied. children is to raise them by ourselves as we In fact, we only said that there was no have always done. This is an issue where we leadership. We had a great dealof difficulty haven't succeeded in moving an inch. We in recognizing this and living out this have notsucceeded ingetting the Brazilian experience. We fought with the women government to increase the supply of from the political movement per se daycare centersor to implement collective because of ali that business about needing kitchens. Women have entered the labor to have a coordinator and plenary market en messe and have yet to solve this meetings for everything, while we carne problem. Maternity is an issue that has back at them with radical democracy. been raised, but which remains to be Today the problem is who represents whom. solved. We may need to have some I believe that the NGOs do not represent privileges because of this difference. the feminist movement. But every political AB: I think that other forms of differentiation movement needs institutionalization; it's are also justified. For example, a distinction inevitable. Just as there are professionals in vis-à-vis night shifts and retirement politics - inside the parties - the NGOs are schedules according to years of service also a place for the professionalization of and age makes sense in a concrete feminists. But they can't speak on behalf of framework where certainactivitiesfall more the movement, for no other reason, for heavily on women. Some such protective example, that when you hold a political measures are justified on the basis of the meeting like March 8th, they never show country's overall situation, where women up. To the extent that you professionalize, benefit rarely and poorly from opporfunities you don' t take to the streets to struggle ar in the labor market. go to the demonstrations. REF: Feminist practice in Brazil in the 1980s AB: 1 don't think it's just a matter of the and 1990s has presented a new dynamic NG0s. On the one hand, itisanachievement as compared to previous decades. Some to have institutionalized spaces and the changesinclude the rapid growth offeminist possibility of concentrating more oncertain NG0s, a heavy degree of specialization issues. But we have occupied various other and formation of networks - health, rights, spaces, like the universities, and this has the environment - strong participation in even backed a more highly-qualified kind national forums and significant presence of discourse on women's conditions in our of women in governmental and other country. We have created a broad range agencies. There are two issues here: A) The of spaces for activity that did not exist 15

ESTUDOS FEMINISTAS 67 years ago. This has been an important or consumers' association. The reason for gain. On lhe other hand, there has been thisisthe real impoverishment of the people, dispersion. We have not succeeded in meaning that their time is taken up in occupying this space and ar lhe same guaranteeing their survival rather than in Ume maintaining a mobilizing force to act political/ organizational activities. This in circumstances where you have to bring economic crisis situation has ied to the loss politica) pressure to bear. if there were of primary gains: which in rum leads to Constitutional review now we would be demobilization. running many serious risks. This is in sharp Concerning women 's organization since contrast with 1987, when we were petitioning 1988. lhe Constitutionai Congress, and on every street comer in and review. there was the disappearance of Brazil as a whole. We submitted popular lhe National Council on Women 's Rights as amendments tolhe Constitution on a broad an agglutinating force vis-à-vis lhe Nationai variety of issues. We produced debates Congress. ana seminars in nade unions. The "lipstick JP: Getting Pack to lhe question of lobby" was not just in Brasília, it was ali over representation, authority, hierarchy, or dis- the country. What I miss in this process now cipline. Ishould mention my experience in is this mobilizing force, and lhe responsibility lhe Council. During a criticai moment in is not just that of lhe professionalization lhe National Council for Women' s Rights, 1 phenomenon for feminists in lhe NG0s. had to wait a month for lhe grassroots JP: What is happening in Brazil is not so groups to be consulted in arder to authorize peculiar. Demobilization of the grassroots is me to resign as chairwoman. lhe National widespread in many countries. Despite lhe Councii was a gooci example ot collective vigor of the feminist movement, certain work combining professional efficiency with victories slow down mobilization. This a representative mandate. Professionalism becomes even worse in Brazil, where should not be confused with lack of disbelief is widespread, in a very negative democracy. overall context in relation to majorgrassroots lhe women's NGOs that are out there mobilization of men and/or women. trying to get organized are also seeking am even surprised M/ lhe vigor that still efficiency ana proauctivity. Their legitimacy exists in the movement. An exampie of this is based on lhe kind and quality of their was lhe national meeting on Women and work and their capital. They try to listen to Population, wnich to the surprise of lhe demands. You can beiong to an NGO with entire organizing committee brought over greater or lesser legitimacy and even be 500 women to lhe Brazilian National there as pari- of some movement. I repeat, Congress (1993), with active participation 1 do not believe that the NGOs represent in the discussion process and a truly the (feminist) movement. impressive energy. HP: lt is important to stress that lhe NGOs Wania Sant'anna: 1 would like to point out have emergea ana developed in the that institutionaiization is nota pnenomenon absence of lhe state, wnich aos pulled out that is peculiar to lhe women's movemenr. because of its bankruptcy, iIs IML< of funds. Various other segments of lhe social We are witnessing the destruction of lhe movement have been undergoing the state In Brazil and lhe rest of Latin America, same process. In fact, nobody even knows within a neoliberal context of new relations wnetherdemobilizationhasbeenresponsibie between lhe North and lhe South. With lhe for institutionalization, or vice versa. ena of lhe Cold War and lhe dissolution of Important causes have been attracting lhe Soviet Union, there is no longer lhe few people. lhe Campaign Against Hunger threat of communism. So now the South has been successful because vou participate threatens lhe North with over-population, in small groups, doing various concrete drug traffic, nuclear weapons, and actions. It is nora neighborhood, farmers', violence. Funding for NGOs comes through

YEAR 7 1 68 1" SEMESTER 99 First World organizationsthat are concerned also true that NGOs facilitate things with problems like these, that lhe South can sometimes. Having CEPIA on lhe organizing transfer to lhe North. Since lhe North is committee for an experience (lhe process worried about this, it finances lhe NG0s, of lhe Brasília Charter and preparation of which organize inside lhe social movements Brazilian women regarding population po- in order to meet lhe kinds of needs that lhe licies) played an important role, and for Brazilian state, and Latin American states in many of us who went there, it revived general, are unable to cope with. moments from lhe National Council on REF: When we speak of professionalization, Women's Rights. Another example is an we are not just dealing with efficiency, but NGO that does research. To raise data, with lhe fact that some women are making study correlations, and distribute this kind feminism a profession and are therefore of material helps the movement. This should accumulating information and political be lhe fundamental role of lhe NG0s. contacts and circulating internationally. WS: We might say that NGOs have gone What is lhe impact of this new category on overboard on given roles, where theyshould lhe women' s movement? have limited themselves to advising lhe AB: 1 think that there are situations where social movement. For example, I believe lhe NGOs speak for lhe movement when that Rede Mulher (the Women's Network) they shouldn't. They accumulate a huge and SOS provide advice to women on lhe amount of information in their daily work, perifery, and this is in fact in terms of what and sharing this is difficult. This means that you say relating to the agencies - their two spheres are created within lhe advisory role in various fields: health, sexuality, movement. There emerges a body of violence, and so on. NGOs are service individuais who are able to speak about organizations, and lhe research they do is given issues and elaborate on them and so entirely tied to lhe demands they receive. on, and there is another body of people who REF:But whenan NGO distributescontracep- are unable lodo this. Fm not excluding NGO tives or sets up a gynecological clinic, is people from lhe movement. The problem that an advisory role or lhe role of lhe state? is how to turn them into a mobilizing force. JP: The very concept of state haschanged, I am concerned with lhe fact that lhe and historical changes have occurred that NGOs have emerged in a void of lhe state. have led to a questioning of its role. Who And I ask myself: how does lhe movement wants II? I don't want that capitalist, feel when it goes out on lhe streets to make gigantic, bureaucratic, Brazilian state built demands of lhe state, like changes in public by lhe military. At a given moment in time policies, if we now have NGOs occupying it was progressive to support lhe idea of an this space? 1 can go to a government interventionist state. II was also at that agency and make demands, but I can't time, during lhe dictatorship, that lhe ma- demand anything of an NGO. At lhe most, jor cadres joined lhe state. But nowadays, 1 can say, "1 like your work, " or "I don't like perhaps nobody wants certain kinds of your work." But I do make demands of lhe developments that turned lhe idea of lhe government. Although I think it is great to state into a monster. have professional feminists, I take a cautious WS: No one can replace lhe state in terms stance towards lhe NG0s, particularly of lhe reach of certain public policy because of lhe nature of lhe link between activities. The world 's largest NGO would lhe movement and them. The feminist be incapable of operating the kind of movement in Brazil has always considered program that a well-oriented governrnent lhe state iIs interlocutor. We want rights. can do at lhe national levei. Based on a We want lhe Constitution, we want a fair, certain intuitive feeling, in given forums lhe active state. The NGO dynamic short- representatives from NGOs do not speak circuits lhe possibility for continuing to have individually, or at least their interlocutors do lhe state as an interlocutor. However, it is not presuppose this.

ESTUDOS FEMINISTAS 1 69 S.1199 REF: But they are nal speaking from the thattime, maybe wehad notaccumulated same vantage pont, pecause they are enough strength to iegif imole lhe initiative speaking as individuais, while someone for creating the Council. We based representing an NGO ends up having a ourselves on a document that Brazil had differentiated kind of voice, because one ratified. Could it be that we still lack suco supposes that she bears sorne kinci of legitimacy, given our practice, our gaios, greater legitimacy: she is s peaking on ana lhe changes that have actually been benalf of both the people wno work in her occurring and tnat have allowed us to NGO and aiso the groups they assist. Do have a kind of discourse that is not forced you ali agree with this interpretation? to rest on what we might call an international WS: I agree, I think this is a sticky issue, the formulation of such rights? factthatthe NGOs have occupied a space JP: 1 think that the /egitimation process which in fact in the past pertained occursthrough a meeting of as many voices exclusively to the women s movement. An as possibie, joining lhe agenda. For example of this is the conterence comina example, to succeed in taking the ssue of up in Beijing. As it stanas now, the women's genital mutilation to a United Nations forum, movement is not goina to participate. while overcoming cultural relativism, means the NGOsthat are accredited by the United imposing ouragenda on the United Nations. Nations system are. It is women who are doing this. it is Muslim. JP: It is not .just lhe NGOs that have lhe African, Brazilian, American. and European authority to speak. lhe position that many feminisrs wno are doing this, and it is the feminists have in lhe academe also gives women' s agenda. When vau have one or them an immense amount of authoritv, two aetegates using tne expression "genital and th is nas also produced tension vis-à-vis mutilation", that's a victory! So, the representcrhon within the womeh smovement. reiationship between the women's move- REF: Some feminisrs nave called attention mem, lis agenda, and lhe International to tne fact that lhe Brazilian teminist United Nations conferences is a two-way movement in recent yearsnastralled along street. This démarche does not necessarily behina the agendas and discussions mean trailing aiong behincl, but to be proposed by the conferences. Do you agree? contemporary. Besides. w'nat does ao es JP . in 1985, ai lhe time of lhe 3rd World own agenda mean in a aiobalized world? Conference in Nairobi, one of the goals REF: lhe Brazilian nationalfeminist meetings was to create institutional mechanisms that weresupposedly the forum wherethisagen- would promote women • s development cia was Ouiit, Butthey exhaustedthemseives around the world. And itwas "trailing along as forums for proposals, giving vi!ay to lhe behind" - to use lhe expression - that we had international global agendas. To what legitimacy in Brazilfor setting upthe National extent has there been communication Council (on Women 's Rights): lhe Uniteci oetween the two? Nations suggestea lhe implementation.of JP: What has happened with lhe national "institutionai machinery''. lhe Council was teminist meetings? m asking you because precisely this institutionai machinery. Weput I dia not actually gola the iasr meeting, but some Teeth imo this iaea and provided the I hearci comments that it was extremeiy legitimacy for creating a National Council, dispersive. And this was nor because some whose statuteswere aiready being draffed. international agenda was being discusseci. In similar fashion, with the Conference in think ilhas olor more to do with tneinternal Mexico In 1975, we began to meet in Brazil dynamics of lhe women' s movement itself. anci organized a week of debates on Maybe it was a moment when the women, based on lhe so-called Internationai movement was there for reasons olhar Women's Year. And this was right in lhe than To establish ao agenda. middle of the dictatorship. REF: One assessment of lhe last national AB: But lhe question I ask is lhe following: ai meeting Caldas Novas in 1991 - is that it

YEAR 7 1 70 1 SEMESTER 99 lost steam because feminists, particularly WS: There are three new developments: lhe those who belonged to NG0s. were Black women' s movement, a repositioning overburdenedwith an agenda of international of women within lhe churches, and lhe meetings. For economic reasons, whether organization of rural working women. As for because of a crisis or lack of funding, this lhe latter, one has to acknowledge that meeting, which used to be held everyother they are operating in a difficult field, that of year, is now going to take place every frade unionism, land ownership, and land three years. This is seen as a sign of its tenure. The Black women's movement has exhaustion. reclaimed an identity that is not only WS: I agree that there is a predominance of gender-based, but racial as well. In fact, these agendas, these dates, and these many women recompose their racial articulations, in which lhe NGOs are identity first, before recovering their gender particularly involved. This depletion of the Identity. This is quite a new development. national meetings in the Brazilian case da- REF: Has lhe Black women's movement tes back to 1987, in Garanhuns, when feminists given greater priority to lhe issue of race experienced extreme difficulty in coping than that of gender? with something called the popularization WS: Since lhe women's movement has of feminism. Many feminists said, "Very well, proven incapable of perceiving the racial I come here to deal with feminist issues, issue asa central one in Brazilian society, ia and these women say that they're feminists, lhe forums where white and non-white so you have to tell lhe whole story ali over women meet, racial differences become again, starting from the beginning. We' ve polarized. II is impossible to talk about lost our placa " There was a block in without discussing racial communications betweenvariouswomen's inequality. On this point. Black women have groups. This problem is not just Brazilian, it's put up a hot struggle within lhe Black a Latin American problem, because you movement itself, and they have gained can find lhe same criticism in Latin American respect within lhe movement. The Black feminist meetings. women's movement has succeeded ia AB: I disagree with Wania' s assessment of becoming independent. The challenge is what she's calling lhe depletion of feminist how to maintain relationswith lhe women' s meetings. I think one of lhe important things movement on the one hand and lhe Black in this last tive or ten years in lhe feminist movement on lhe other. movement hasbeen precisely this possibility REF: In lhe American women's movement, of us - from the major urban centers and lhe major opposition is between Black with a middle-class background - no longer feminists and white feminists. This is lhe being lhe only feminists. Feminism has watershed in lhe movement today, and undergone a process of popularization. apparently it has proven impossible to There may not be huge demonstrations in negotiate cornmon strategies. Could lhe the big cities, but things are happening in lhe same thing be happening in Brazil? interior that never happened there before. WS: Well, I think lhe situation is a little more Many of lhe so-called historical feminists, low-key here because there is an issue of who have been involved in other activities, social class, a discussion which has been feel that they are not available for this kind secondary in lhe United States. Here ia of so-called grassroots work. There is a ano of lhe major criticisms by Black degree of arrogance in this view, which women and lhe Black community in gene- indeed is a mistaken one, since one can ral regarding lhe white community is that learn a great deal through lhe experience lhe latter tends to deny ethnic specificity, of such women. underestimating it vis-à-vis lhe class issue. II REF: is lhe emergence of a Bleck women's is not justa class issue. So much has been movement a reflection of this diversification said about self-esteem and women' s pride, of lhe social base of feminism in Brazil? and they have ignored self-esteem from a

ESTUDOS FEMINISTAS 1 7 S I./99 racial perspective. This has oeen an over others. For example, I believe that little extremely serious political and theoreticai is being said in Rio de Janeiro today about mistake, since we have been subjected to abortion. Few feminists have raised the a strictly class-based analysis. The Brazilian banner of abortion as an inherent, funda- womeh s movement, the feminist movement, mental issue in . Yet the needs to readdress the ethnic issue. And not sterilization issue is given priority. In this just readdress it! It needs to incorporate and context, an essentialist perspective may understand what it means in greater depth. emerge that can lead to biologism through REF: What are the difficulties in doing this? the notion of mutilation. Ana what about WS: lhe difficulty is acknowledging that we abortion? Is it also an act of mutilation? live in a racist society and that we have a Within this logic, it is. There are thus some racist monster inside us, Black women and feminists who struggle against sterilization white women. Racism is a daily practice, withoutjoining the struggle to decriminalize and as such it has to be understood first in abortion. I wouldn 't say that they take sides order to be exposed. Black women have with the anti-abortionist campaigns, but been trying to organize since 1975, within neither do they come out publicly in favor the Black movement, But in fact it was of decriminalization. Se there is a real division within the perspective of a feminist there, which is expressed in different organization that we found the strength to agendas. But that' s ali right! I believe that organize autonomously. it is important to the movement has never marched forward point out that the first National Meeting of homogeneously. Black Women was decided on auring a Regarding population, the most significant Feminist National Meeting, in Garanhuns, share of Brazilian feminists, those who were Pernambuco State, in 1987. We held the invoived in ECO-92, have taken a stance first National Meeting of Black Women against population policies, favoring so- (Valença, Rio deJaneiro State, 1988) before called social policies instead. This line enjoys the Black movement had held its first legitimacy In Brazil, but it's a minority stance national meeting (São Paulo, 1991). This is a eisewhere in the world. International forums major historical triumph for the women's have proven this. Ws the case for Africa movement. Without a doubt, worksnops and Asia, and for Mexico, Chile, and Ar- and other methodologies from the gentina in Latin America. meetings in the women's movement have WS: This nationwide consensus on population reached the Black movement. We should policy issues did not exist before. and it was value the positive aspects of this relationship, produced as a political fact during the although it is still a conflictive relationship, Hotel Glória Conference. with distrust on both sides. AB: 1 disagree. I think this position had REF: In Brazil today, the reproductive rights issue already appeared in the Charter of Brasília appears to be the watershed in the women's in 1993. In Brazil, the popuiation debate movement. Do you ali agree with this? occurred in the midst of the discussion on JP: In the first place, 1 would like to challenge the environment, as a function of ECO-92. the notion of "movement", because it's a I would like to talk about the environment, fiction, i would prefer to sav " among and 1 don't want it to be shacklea to the feminists". I aon 't know what I'm referring population issue. to when 1 say "movement" 1 don't think WS: During ECO-92 there was a division there' s a feminist who isn't struggling for amongst the NG0s, and the women's reproductive rights. In myopinion, reproductive movement was left in charge of the rights mean decision-making autonomy in population Issue. in what was called Agen- relation to one's reproductive life. lhe imply da 21. both option and responsibility. JP: It isn't "politically correct" to talk about Otherfeministstiedown reproductive rights, population policies today. But we should giving priority to certain reproductive rights understand that population policies also

YEAR 7 1 72 SEMESTER 99 have to do with factors relating to morta lity, generated by the Brazilian national state natality, demographic variables, migration, from its outset. This is not just political and so on. This is called population policy. discourse ar rhetoric. National immigration We should address these policies by policy (a series of Brazilian governmental questioning not the concept of population, incentives for European immigration, but the use made of it by the government, following abolition of slavery. in 1888 - private agencies, etc. translator's note) was aimed entirely at In this specific case, I think that to deny the controlling the Black population. use of the expression "population policy" in For example, take the propaganda by order to be "politically correct" is to restrict (gynecologist) Elcimar Coutinho in the mass one'sself, to shut one'sself off. On the other media in the city of Salvador, with Brazil's hand, what we ali want are social policies: largest Black contingent, showing a Black to ensure access to information, decision- child, with the following caption: "factory making, and abortion, too. defect". Or another piece of propaganda WS: l' m not a specialist in the debate on showing a pregnant Black women with the reproductive rights, which is a discussion caption, "Some people are whining, while for specialists. It's an internationalized their bellies are full." Take lhe State of discussion, one that is criss-crossed by the Maranhão, with a huge contingent of various NGO positions, and if you miss one sterilized non-white women! On the other of these major conferences you never hand, I'm against lhe idea of Black women catch up again. as baby factories. I don't want a throwback My fundamental ssue in relation to to slavery, when Black women reproduced reproductive rights is not whether or not to for lhe slaveowners. So neither do I want have children. It's sexuality. And that' s that image of Black women bearing little where the international agenda really Black kids to reclaim lhe Black unity lost at changed the focus of the analysis, because some point in the past. l want for women to in the discussion over reproductive rights, have the possibility of doing other things in nothing is said about sexuality. m referring their lives besides raising children. to a radical change in the way people in AB: 1 have an observation about what general - and not only women - experience Jacqueline said at lhe beginning of the their sexuality. If I don' t want women to be debate on population. The population issue sterilized, I don't want them to take was addressed by the Committee on contraceptives right and lett, either. If the Reproductive Rights in the State House of discussion on sexuality were developed Representatives when it began to discuss properly, reproductive rights would be the sterilization, thus four years prior to ECO-92. last point on this agenda. What we ascertained was a process of REF: Do you think that sterilization in Brazil mass sterilization. We discovered that the has hit the Black population the hardest? Brazilian Federal government was at least WS: lhe Black women 's movement is an accomplice, and at mosto co-author, against population policies. Because in implementing this enormously successful historically, the focus of population policies policy. I agree with Wania that the sexuality has been the non-white populations. There issue has been overlooked, and I disagree is a given cultural identity that (the powers- with Jacqueline when she adopts a liberal that-be) do not wish to see preserved over discourse about each individuais right to the course of history. And this is not just an opt. lhe right to individual option has to be issue of social class or poverty. read in light of this country and lhe It is a fact that the Black population has conditions in which women live. It's been affected the most by genocidal democratic to opt when you have lhe actions. lhe worst of these in the Brazilian conditions to do so. case has been miscegenation and mass HP: If we compare feminism in Brazil with immigration. This was a public policy the rest of the world, we notice that violence

ESTUDOS FEMINISTAS 1 73 S.I./99 against women and abortion have been pass. because Brazilian society is very the issues around which women have permissive. lt depenas on how you put the organized elsewhere. Here in Brazil it has question to the population If you ask, "Are been different, since feminism has been you against abortion?", everybody is! But marked by the struggle to redemocratize if you put the question differently, like "Do the country, by citizens • rights and equality. you think that a who has an In 1975, nobody talked about abortion. This abortion should go to Jair', there would issue was only presented with force more be a unanimous no. recently, as a function of the international REF: We would like to draw the debate To a agenda and population policies. dose and to thank you for taking part. We Here in Brazil there's another issue, that of hope that this initiative of raising polemicai the Catholic Church and its power over issues characterizing the current siage of government agencies working in the field the feminist debate will help it gain greater of health. At any rate, i believe that if we vigor and presence in the Brazilian scenario. were to nota a plebiscite, abortion would

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