WISCONSIN HISTORICAL SOCIETY

An Oral History Interview with

ALAN K. SIMPSON

Interviewer: .Anita Hecht, Life History Services Recording Date: June 2, 2009 Place: Cody, Wyoming. Length: 1.5 hours

Sen. Alan K. Simpson of Wyoming served with Sen. William Proxmire for 10 years. He was raised in Denver, Colorado, and attended the University of Wyoming, where he earned his undergraduate degree in law in 1954. From 1955 to 1956, Simpson served in the U.S. Army before earning his JD degree at the University of Wyoming in 1958. He served briefly as Assistant Attorney General of Wyoming before practicing law with his father.

In 1964, Simpson was elected to the Wyoming State Legislature and served until 1977, when he was elected to the U.S. Senate in 1978. During his first two terms as senator, he became acquainted with Sen. Proxmire. From 1984 to 1994, Sen. Simpson served as the Assistant Republican Majority Leader, was Chair of the Veterans' Affairs Committee from 1980 to 1984, and chaired the Immigration and Refugee Subcommittee of Judiciary. Like Sen. Proxmire, though not during the same time, Sen. Simpson also served on the Senate Finance Committee.

Though on opposite ends of the political spectrum, Sen. Simpson and Sen. Proxmire often occupied similar roles - what Simpson called, "designated irritants who took unpopular positions." Sen. Simpson added that he admired Sen. Proxmire's tireless, daily speeches on the Genocide Convention and his commitment to the office he held.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 1 Proxmire Oral History Project NAME: PROXMIRE ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Verbatim Interview Transcript NARRATOR: Alan Kooi Simpson INTERVIEWER: Anita Hecht INTERVIEW DATE: June 2,2009 INTERVIEW LOCATION: Cody, Wyoming INTERVIEW LENGTH: 1.5 Hours

KEY: AS Alan Simpson BP Bill Proxmire

SUBJECT INDEX

HOUR la

Hour la/00:00 AS Family History

Hourla/10:10 AS Family History (cont) Father's Introduction to Law

Hour la/20:00 Father's Political Beginnings Father's Views of BP

HOUR lb

Hour lb/00:00 AS's Political Career Republican Platform Genocide Treaty

Hour lb/09:45 AS's Political Issues Comparison to BP Nuclear Waste Issue

Hour lb/20:00 AS's Thoughts on Social Security Special Interest Groups

Hour lb/29:45 Golden Fleece Awards Accusing BP of his own Golden Fleece

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript Proxmire Oral History Project HOUR 2

Hour 2/00:00 BP's Persistence in Senate Ratification of Genocide Treaty Letters from BP to AS

Hour 2/11:00 Changes in the Senate BP's Physical Fitness Regime

Hour 2/20:20 BP's Alzheimer's BP's Political Characteristics BP's Speculated Views on Today's Bailouts

Hour 2/30:05 BP's Legacy

HOUR la

Hour la/00:00 AS Family History

The date is June T in the year 2009. My name is Anita Hecht and I have the great pleasure and honor of interviewing Senator Alan Kooi Simpson on behalf of the William Proxmire Oral

History Project for the Wisconsin Historical Society. And we find ourselfin Al's home here in beautiful Cody, Wyoming.

That's right.

So thankyoufor agreeing to participate in this project.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript Proxmire Oral History Project Well, my patience hasn't run thin yet, but you'll get at it.

I'll get it.

No, go ahead. You'll have to bounce around with me a little this morning because I have this meeting.

7 will. Well let's begin with a little bit about you. When and where were you born?

I was born September 2n 1931, in Denver. My parents lived here. Cody was a very small town with one doctor. And my mother had some complications and he said, "I can't handle this one."

So they got on the train; the Burlington Railroad had a depot here. Buffalo Bill was responsible for bringing the railroad to Cody, Wyoming from Chicago and New York, and they came here.

They got on the train overnight to Denver, and I was born at Mercy Hospital in Denver. And after a couple of weeks, they all came back with me!

Tell me about your name.

Well, the name is Dutch. It's Kooi. It's a very common Dutch name, like Smith here. And it means "cage." It's a direct derivative of decoy, the cage, which was to trap ducks and then shoot them during the winter while it was a little chilly. They'd trap them in the summer and the birds would go into this big cage, you know, might be sixty feet high. Anyway, so my grandfather, to the best we know, he came from somewhere up in Friesland.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript A Proxmire Oral History Project This is your maternal —

My mother's father, Peter Kooi was Dutch. And there were a number of them - who came to the

Chicago area. He was orphaned at the age of six. I don't remember his parent's name, but I have

all that. And then he was raised in "Little Holland", which was an enclave in downtown Chicago;

like there was also a Black community in downtown Chicago - an amazing history of Chicago -

and then a Dutch community, German - The Abend Post was published there until the war. They

said, "Shut this German guy down! He must be a sympathizer." So it was a very interesting city.

So he grew up there.

Who raised him?

Hmm?

Who raised him after he was orphaned?

Nobody knows. We have some records with the fact that he was beaten by somebody who later then in life, when he saw Peter Kooi succeed, looked him up and apologized for beating him

when he was a little kid. And I have all that, but no need for you -

But he made his way out to Wyoming?

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 5 Proxmire Oral History Project He worked as a clerk for the railroad and he was a schmoozer and a very wonderful, generous

man. And he must have ingratiated himself to many people because from a clerk on the railroad,

he ended up owning a coal mine and then building a town, which was a very sizeable town with

a Post Office and a school and a pool hall and a band shell and all the things that went with it,

outside of Ranchester, Wyoming; the town of Kooi.

Called Kooi, Wyoming.

Um-hmm. (affirmatively)

Does it still exist today?

It's a ghost town, but you can see the steps of the school and if you're out there with a metal

detector and there's a lot of pieces of the old mine, you know, the tipple and poles in the ground

where there was subsidence, you know, where the mines collapsed underneath. You could go there now and find bricks and things.

Was he an educated or religious man?

I wanted to ask you about that, because when you talked to me the first time, the first thing you

said was, "Was your mother educated?" And if that isn't something to piss a guy off. Because I

was going to say, "No, she was a Cretin! She had a corncob pipe and washed laundry out in the

foothills." Because that - you have to ask that in a different way with people. You said, "Was

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 6 Proxmire Oral History Project your mother educated?" and it has a sound like, "Was she able to read and write and speak her

own name?" I think you need to say, "What was your mother's background?" Just a tip, but that,

I think, is offensive.

Well, thank you for letting me know that.

Yes, you don't have to put that in your pages - but you see what I mean?

7 do, I do. Uh-huh. (affirmatively)

Is that the essence of life? That you're educated? Of course it isn't.

Yeah.

Many wonderful people I know are uneducated, but smart as hell. So, I was hoping you'd get to that again, so I could jump all over it. (laughter) And I have, and now the hell with it. I'm not

going to do it again. But, now, you're asking - who - if Peter Kooi was educated?

Yeah. I'm curious as to what was typical in those days and how he made his way to become this

[success]?

I have no idea. All I know is he was smart. He was sociable. He was kind. He was warm, wise,

witty.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 7 Proxmire Oral History Project Do you know if he was political?

Oh, yes. He served in the Wyoming State Senate.

77e was?

Yeah. There are generations my family [that have] been in the Wyoming legislature. He was one.

He was, I think it was 1905. I have that. But he was a very generous man. He put a water

fountain on the corner of every block in the Main Street of Sheridan and underneath was a

special trough for dogs and cats and animals that could, then, get water out of there. And that

was Peter Kooi.

So you knew him?

Well, he died when I was four, but I remember him. You know, you do remember things at four.

I remember the grief that everybody had. "Oh, Peter's gone." He was young. He was sixty-four

or something. I don't know what his education was, but I know that when he sold the mine to

Peabody Coal, he took my mother, who probably was - Mom was born in 1900. She never

would tell anyone. He took them around the world on the great ships of the White Star and the

Cunard Lines and on the ship, Leviathan. They traveled to Egypt and Algiers and Paris and

Rome and Berlin. And she was just a girl. I mean, she was seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty.

And she married in '29, when she was twenty-nine years old.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 8 Proxmire Oral History Project So now we 're talking about your mother, Lorna Helen.

Lorna Helen Kooi, um-hmm. (affirmatively)

Tell me a little bit about her influence on you.

Well, she was the velvet hammer. She was an amazing woman; a very bright, very beautiful

woman -there are pictures of them there in their eighties. But she was from a wealthy family.

Scandal was rolling then; and she was born in Chicago, in Irving Park. The home is still there.

And she was educated at Miss Mason's Castle School in Terrytown, New York, which is no

longer in existence, it was a girls' school. Senator Kit Bond's mother and my mother went there together, along with Clare Boothe Luce. She went there for apparently three, four years; then

went to the University of Illinois because they lived in Chicago and Sheridan. And she, in the

second year, was told (at U. of 111) that she had no musical talent and should find something else.

She was in music, and she was quite heartbroken by that. She played the violin. She played the

mandolin. She played the organ. She played the piano, and sang; and did all that here in Cody,

Wyoming; in music clubs and other things. And she loved art, she was a painter and did some

lovely paintings. So that's who she was. And then, of course, she had gone to early school in

Sheridan because they'd come back to the mine town and there was a trolley that took the kids in

from Ranchester, Wyoming to Sheridan, which was about fifteen miles, or fourteen. So she went to school there for awhile, in Chicago, and married my father in '29.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 9 Proxmire Oral History Project How do you think she influenced you and who you became, if you were to pinpoint specific

values or beliefs?

Hourla/10:10 AS Family History (cont.), Father's Introduction to Law

She was a very astute, very wise woman. And she actually had a lot of trouble with me. I had a

vicious temper. And she'd say, "I'm not going to allow you to grow up and be like your

grandfather." Well, hell, I didn't know what the hell the grandfather had done - the other

grandfather, William L. Simpson. But he had shot and killed a man in the middle of the main

street of Cody in August of '23 and was charged with first degree murder, and was acquitted

because they felt the guy had it coming!

This was your father's father?

Yeah, um-hmm. (affirmatively) So mom would keep saying, "I'm not going to let you have a

vicious temper like your grandfather," which he had, because he was also the one that was thrown out of the fourth grade for witnessing a public hanging.

Well, let's talk a little bit about the paternal side now. This is your grandfather. His name was —

William L. Simpson.

William L. Simpson. And he was already out here in Wyoming?

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 10 Proxmire Oral History Project Oh, yeah. He was born in northern Colorado. And his father ran a livery stable in Denver called

The Elephant Corral. And then he left Denver and went to Lander and ended up in Jackson in

about 1894; and John Porter Simpson was his name. That's my great-grandfather.

Do you know what generation came over to the United States? Or is this way back to the

Mayflower?

They came from somewhere in Virginia, the Simpsons and the Lees. They go back to General

Lee somewhere. And my grandmother, Dad's mother, was Margaret Lee Simpson. My father

was Milward L. Simpson; Milward Lee Simpson. So, anyway, my mom would shut me in my

room and say, "Come out of there when you can stop acting up," and I'd rail and tear and snort

and tell her and I was going to get her-"I'll get ya." It just broke her heart. And I figured if I

could make her cry, the day had been complete. I mean, I was a monster. She said that when I

was about eleven, I came in from play and said, "Mom, I've learned how to turn my 'won't

power' into 'will power!'"

Your won't power into will power?

Um-hmm, um-hmm. (affirmatively) And I said, "Did I say that?" And she told me that I said that

even when I was sixty. She said, "I'll never forget that, Alan." Well, anyway, she was the velvet

hammer. She was the force. And she was marvelous and I was a son of a bitch. And finally, I think I was about thirty and sober when I told her I loved her. And then from then on, it was all

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 11 Proxmire Oral History Project up hill, because whenever she needed anything, I was there; and my brother, too. My brother's

very dear, very close. And dad was, you know, he was the firey guy. But Mom was the stable

one; she was the gyroscope.

Tell me a little bit about your dad now.

Well, he was born in Jackson, Wyoming - there weren't many people born in Jackson - in 1897,

and was one of three children. And his sister, Virginia, was a very talented woman; who later

worked for the government in Bogota, Columbia, and died down there. Uncle Glen was

personable and charming and full of bullshit. And he wrote checks. He was the greatest check

writer of all time! He said, "I never hurt anybody. I never did a battery or an assault." But he was just full of it. He saw this guy with a cattle truck one day and he said, "Got cattle in there? I'd

like to buy them. In fact, I'll buy the truck too!" Well, the guy said, "Who are you?" He said,

"Remember Billy Simpson, the great lawyer? That's my dad. Milward Simpson, remember the

legislator? That's my brother." "Oh, well, ok then, " and then he'd just write a bum check. And they shipped him off to a prison in Steilacoom, Washington for about ten years. Our sons both

practiced law, and a few years ago they said, "Dad, here's a good one. Here's a picture of Uncle

Glen also in the Wyoming Penn [penitentiary] with his number." (laughter) And he was a

wonderful guy; married a great gal from Arkansas and had a lovely daughter.

You have quite a colorful family, (laughter)

It will do. That's why I say they didn't all come on the Mayflower! They were in steerage.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 12 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, let me ask you a few more questions about your father. He was drawn to politics, or

legislating.

Well, he was an amazing man. We pieced a lot of his life together. He went to Cody High School

and he played basketball. They didn't have football then. And somehow, he ended up after high

school here, in Cody at Tome School, Maryland, for a year, which is in Port Deposit, Maryland.

It's still there - Tome - T-O-M-E. And he was the athlete of the year. Of course, he was older than the other boys because he'd come - as I say, he graduated from high school here in 1916, so

he was nineteen; then the year at Tome he was twenty. And then he went to the University of

Wyoming in '21, and he was captain of baseball, football and basketball; a great athlete. He was

offered to play semi-pro baseball with the Cardinal chain and his father, William, said, "You

know, what are you going to do? Just chase a white ball around in the tall, green grass with a

stick in your hand the rest of your life? What a stupid game that is." So his Dad said, "If you go to Harvard, I'll pay the way." So Dad went to Harvard Law School, where he busted out. He said

he had a hell of a lot of fun. And he tutored the family of Jackie Bouvier Kennedy, tutored the

Pell family children. He tutored these kids, and they loved him, and the Auchincloss family. And

he consorted with Abbott Thayer and John Singer Sargent. In the library at Harvard, there's the

panels on both sides showing military themes. Have you seen those? Have you see the Widener

Library at Harvard? Over on the right side is Dad with an army uniform on passing as one of the

figures in the frieze painted by Sargent. So, anyway, he busted out. He was pissed at that. He thought that Harvard harbored a bunch of snobs, and that they were really going to show this

cowboy how it is done in the east. He felt that they were doing that. That was his feeling anyway.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 13 Proxmire Oral History Project And yet he had dear friends there that were direct relatives of Henry James and William James,

and they lived in Dublin, New Hampshire. And, anyway, he had all written diaries of that. It's

amazing.

When you say he busted out, what do you mean?

He flunked.

He flunked.

Yeah, it's called flunking. I had a student once at Harvard. And he said, "I've never had a B." I

had given him a B minus, and he said, "I've never had one of those." And I said, "You're thirty-

six years old, and you're on your, what, fourth grad degree?" I said, "Let me show you what this

is." I said, "What is this, here?" (I wrote the letter "D"), and he looked and he said, "I don't

know." I said, "It's a D." I said, "I had those. I had these. These are called Ds, and I've gotten

quite a few and what you ought to do is get the hell out of here and go to work. Get off your ass

and get out of town." I hear from him. He's just doing very well. But he said, "Nobody's ever told me that." I said, "You're just wasting money. How many degrees do you need? Enough of that.

So your father, did he eventually end up with a law degree?

He didn't.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 14 Proxmire Oral History Project 77e didn't.

He came back to Wyoming and worked a little bit in the coal mines where he played ball in the summer (in Red Lodge, Montana and Gebo, Wyoming). Then he "read the law". That's what you could do. He read the law to a senior lawyer and after a year of that, he passed the bar. The senior lawyer said, "This is a capable man. He can practice law." My grandfather did the same thing. He never passed the bar. He read the law.

William Simpson.

Yes.

Your father's father.

Hour la/20:00 Father's Political Beginnings, Father's Views of BP

William L. Simpson, because he had no education. He left school after the fourth grade. He was a crafty lawyer, a tremendous lawyer. So, you know, when you talk about formal education, he had none.

But he was self-educated.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 15 Proxmire Oral History Project He was one of the great lawyers of Wyoming. In fact, he's in this book, Progressive Men of

Wyoming. So Dad read the law and then he was a bachelor. And to make a living, he worked at

cafes, typing menus because he could type and didn't have a secretary. He refereed football

games and drank a lot of beer. He was a charming man and he had a lot of fun, until he ran into

my mother. And the lightening hit the outhouse right there. He was thirty-two. But he was a

spirited man. And he ran for the legislature in Hot Springs County in 1927, and was elected. He

was one of the first Republicans ever elected in this heavy Democratic county of miners, because

he was a member of the United Mine Workers as a Republican. So then he had politics in his

blood, and he ran for the US Senate in 1946 against an amazing man named Joseph C.

O'Mahoney, who was one of the "trust busters" with President Roosevelt. O'Mahoney served

Wyoming for twenty-seven years in the Senate, and he beat Dad like a drum in '40. And Dad just

kept staying in it, and then in '54, he ran for Governor and won by a narrow margin. And then he

ran for re-election in '58 and got beat.. .one reason was because he was not in favor of capital

punishment. That won't get you very far in Wyoming, where in the old days you just string 'em

up. And there were other things in that campaign. Then he ran for the US Senate in '62 and was

elected by the largest margin of anyone at that time. So then he quit, because he had arthritis and

Parkinson's Disease.

So he was therefor how many years?

Was he what?

Was he therefor one term, or two?

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 16 Proxmire Oral History Project For a four year term, because the fellow that beat him for re-election as Governor - there was

another race then, a U.S. Senate race two years later in 1960, and this Republican, Keith

Thomson, got a huge vote in November and died a week later in December. So the fellow that

beat Pop in '58, Joe Hickey, appointed himself to the US Senate in 1960, which is a disaster. So

Dad ran against him, and called him, "The Instant Senator," and beat him handily. And then, he

served out the 4 year unexpired term of the fellow who had died.

It was an interesting year for a Republican Senator to enter the Senate.

'62?

Uh-huh. (affirmatively)

Oh, yeah. He was one of thirty-three, I think. And then, of course, another thing that irritated

Wyoming people was that Hickey was a Democrat and the guy that had won the 1960 election

and died was a Republican. Hickey was a good man, and his wife was a fine legislator, Win

[Winifred] Hickey, a wonderful gal.

Well, I just have a Proxmire question, since this is ultimately going to circle back to him.

Yes. I would hope this is about William Proxmire. Are you doing something on me, for God's

sake? (laughter)

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 17 Proxmire Oral History Project Your dad, then, served with —Proxmire was already in the Senate, then. And I'm wondering if you remember anything that he said about Proxmire, or were you following your father's Senate

career at that time, that much?

Well, I had watched him get defeated in '58. So when he thought of running again in '62 -

[pause in interview] When Dad said, "I think I'll run for the Senate," I said, "Only on one

condition." He said, "I haven't told your mother yet." And I said, "Well, it would be good if you

did," because she, I think, has had a belly full of politics, but she was ready to go if he was. But I

said do it, "Only if I manage your campaign. I want to manage your campaign." He said, "That's

fair enough." And I came home and told Ann, "I'm going to manage the old man's campaign."

And she said, "Boy, that will take a lot of time." I said, "I know it, but I don't want to see him

get beat again." I loved politics. And we had a wonderful women's group and a Veteran's group

and every other group and man oh man, we stomped them. So I went back for his swearing in.

And in those days, you could hire your own son or daughter or anybody to be your AA

[Administrative Assistant] or anything, and a lot of them did. And Dad and I said, "You know, that would be the end of you and the end of me." But I went back, fairly often. He'd say, "Gee, this old Fulbright's [Senator J. William Fulbright] driving me crazy," you know, stuff like that,

(laughter) because Fulbright was always rattling on on something. And he said, "This Proxmire,"

he said, "he'd get a hold of your leg like a dog." And he said, "You can't shake him. He's got

your pant leg and your leg in his mouth, and he just keeps coming!" But he said, "I like him,

because of his doggedness." But he said, "He's persistent. Whatever he is, he's authentic." He

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 18 Proxmire Oral History Project said, "He's real." And I don't remember him ever saying anything negative about him, except he

was just -

Tenacious.

Just tenacious is the word, I guess.

Is this a good place to take a break?

It is. And we'll just come back here.

HOUR lb

Hourlb/00:00 AS's Political Career, Republican Platform, Genocide Treaty

We 're back.

Okay. We're back, after giving you the full tour of the Buffalo Bill Historical Center.

We had wrapped up talking about your father's Senate career. And by then you were a young

man into politics yourself. I'm wondering if you can just briefly talk about your youth and what

drew you to both law and politics?

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 19 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, it was part of the dinner table conversation with politics. You know, it was a big part of

Dad's life and Mom's. So it was very common for me to think about politics. And then watching

him win the Governorship and lose the Governorship, and watching him win the Senate and then

drop out because of ill health. And he lived many years after that. So I knew one thing, I didn't

ever want to run against an incumbent in my own Party. That would be a disaster. That's proven to be a disaster. Arizona nearly destroyed itself years ago, where guys would run against an

incumbent of their own party. So a vacancy came up in the Wyoming Legislature. A fellow was

Speaker of the House here in Park County, and it was the common ritual that if you were

Speaker, then you didn't run again. He didn't run again. I said, "Well, here we go." So I ran for the State Legislature in '64, and it was the Goldwater debacle. And yet I won, and went to the

Legislature in Cheyenne in c65. And I did that for thirteen years; worked my way through the

chairs of Majority Leader and Assistant Majority Leader and Speaker Pro Tern [Tempore]. And then I resigned in '77 to run for the US Senate, because the then present US Senator, Clifford

Hansen, a very popular man, who would have been there forever had he wished to, he decided he

would retire. Ann and I were in Paris with our daughter, living in a five hundred dollar a month

attic - boogeying around in Paris, which is a great place to boggie around! And my dad sent a

wire, said, "Cliff Hansen has decided to retire." And I went down and bought a big baguette and

some chevre goat cheese and a little wine and came back said, "Here we go. Let's go. You

ready?"And Ann said, "I'm ready." So I resigned and boy, we went to work. We went all over the State. They didn't know where the hell we had come from, and I had an old station wagon;

and went to every community.

Did you have to raise a lot of money?

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 20 Proxmire Oral History Project Not then, um-mmm. (negatively). Now you would need a ton of money.

Tell me about your Republican affiliation. Were you always a Republican?

Um-hmm. (affirmatively)

Is that a family tradition?

No. My grandfather, the one who killed the person on main street, was the head of the

Democratic Party in Park County. And then he was head of the Democratic Party in Teton

County in Jackson. He was always a Democrat. And when his son (my Dad) ran for the US

Senate in 1940, he organized a group called Democrats for Simpson. But it was a very bitter pill

when Dad got beat so badly in November of 1940. And my grandfather died within a month of

heartbreak. He was a tough, old bird. "Broken Ass Bill," they called him, because he was cripple.

There was no such thing as political correctness in those days.

So what appealed to you about the Republican platform?

Hmm?

What appealed to you about the Republican platform?

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 21 Proxmire Oral History Project Oh, you know . . . well, the same old things... that if they'd stick with it nowadays - you know,

limited government and get the government out of our lives, the right of privacy, what an irony,

for what they do now with the social issues, which is bizarre. And, also a balanced budget, fiscal

sanity. They used to say, when I would run, they'd say, "Well, you didn't follow the Party

Platform." And I said, "No. There are parts of it I don't like. I didn't sit and make it." "Well, you

mean you're for abortion?" And I said, "I think abortion is terrible but it is a deeply intimate and

personal decision and out of respect for each other, it shouldn't be part of a platform." They'd

say, "Oh, God." And, you know - and I said, "And gays and lesbians are all God's children.

What do you think of that sick idea," you know? "Oh, yeah, yeah." (mumbles) So I've always

enjoyed deviling them.

You 've been very independent yourself.

Well, yeah. But you have to be that honestly. You can't just fake it.

Well you said something interesting when I first spoke with you, which was that you saw both yourself and Bill Proxmire as quote, unquote, " designated irritants" in the Senate. Tell me what you mean by that.

Well, he was always punching at, you know, pomposity and illogical things. Although, you

know, that Genocide (interruption) -

You started mentioning the Genocide Convention.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 22 Proxmire Oral History Project Yeah. He just kept coming with that, you know, and the floor leaders, Byrd and all of them

would say, "Well, we're not going to get to that." I don't remember why they never got to it. But there were the extremists who said, "Well, that means we'll all be sent to Alaska and we'll all be

killed." I can't remember all the stupid crap. You'd know it all. There's no need for me to

recount why they kept resisting it. But I always thought (laughter) - sounds pretty good to me,

not killing people by the ton. Sick idea, you know? So that's finally when he made the deal. I think he cut the deal where he could come in first thing every morning. And somebody had to be

in the chair, and the first order of business would be Proxmire with his handwritten notes - or his

yellow legal sheet talking about the Genocide Treaty. And he would work on that speech the day

before. And I think it was every day. I'm not certain, but it seemed like Byrd set it up. Byrd was

leader and then Howard Baker was the leader and Dole, Mitchell. I don't know when - when did

Proxmire get out?

Okay. So he had Byrd and Baker and Mitchell and Dole as his leaders.

Well, back to this thing about being "designated irritants, " meaning you took some unpopular positions. Do you remember any unpopular positions that he took?

I don't know. I just know that when he took one, he was doggedly going to pursue it. He

wouldn't keep the Senate there all night like some zanies would, but when he had something to

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 23 Proxmire Oral History Project say you knew that you had to accommodate him because he was going to get it in. At some

point, he would put it on as an amendment or he would do this or that. And then they'd try to talk

him out of it and say, "Can't you do that some other time?" "No. You've told me that before." I

don't remember specifics. I was never on a Committee with him.

You got in in 1978, right?

Yeah. I was elected in 1978, January, was my swearing in date.

Did you have a direct meeting with him, or do you remember any early interactions?

No. He was just very friendly. He said, "You're Milward's son?" And I said, "I am." And he

said, "Well, I enjoyed Milward. We always had a nice time. Your father is a very lovely man and

very direct and civilized. And I enjoyed him." And so I said, "Well, that's great." And he said,

"You know, if I can be of help, let me know."

And what were some of the things that you took on as your issues when you first got there?

Hour lb/09:45 AS's Political Issues, Comparison to BP, Nuclear Waste Issue

Well, everything I touched was filled with emotion, fear, guilt or racism. So I had a wonderful time! And that's why you can irritate people, because I dealt with nuclear high level waste and

Veterans' issues, social security, immigration, refugee policy, Superfund. You name it. All of

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 24 Proxmire Oral History Project them subject to an assault based on emotion, fear, guilt or racism. That's what people will use on

you if they don't know the facts. So I would do my homework and beat them over the head with

it, which really pisses them off. Veterans' issues - you know, you're supposed to - mention the

word "veteran" and then you're supposed to collapse in a heap and say, "Well, anything it takes." Well, I am a veteran. I served two years in Germany at the end of the Army of

Occupation, and I had my wife over there and a car. It wasn't exactly, you know, a horror story.

And I just said one day in committee, "How many veterans are there?" "Well, there are twenty-

eight million of us" - probably a lot less now, a hell of a lot less. I said, "Well, you mean you

give the same benefits to somebody who served six months and never left Camp Beetle Bailey

and doesn't know a mortar tube from either end, you give the same benefit to that person that

you give to a combat veteran?" "Well yeah, that's the way it is." I said, "That's bullshit." They

said, "What are you going to do about it?" It was six months, so I said, "We're going to expand that to a year. This is nuts." They said, "Well, you'll never get that done." I said, "I will if I tell the story this way." I said, "Because the real issue is you give me the combat Veteran, or one

from the combat theater, whether he was driving a truck or a secretary at Headquarters

Company, and pay those people and we'll just write the check. But for the other twenty-three

million, this is crap." And then we found relatives of those who'd served and some lived in

apartment buildings on Fifth Avenue and still drawing GI [government issue] benefits by some

veteran who didn't even get killed. He just had service Alaska. I said, "This is crazy." Well, they

didn't like it but, anytime somebody would use a horror story on me, I would use a horror story

on them, which was just as effective, but irritating as hell. Immigration and refugee policy -they

would say, "Well, anyone here in our country illegally should be taken care of and treated

humanely." And I said, "How do you think a person is going to be treated who's here illegally?

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 25 Proxmire Oral History Project They're going to be used and exploited and crapped on and stand out there in the street while

somebody in Georgetown who is splashing Chardonnay on my shoes is paying the poor son of a

bitch in their kitchen two bucks a day? You're telling me? I don't have to listen to that." Oh God, that was fun. I loved that. "Why did you put in your skull that it applies one or more persons?" I

said, "You mean, Sylvia in the kitchen, there you're trying to exclude her? The one you pay forty

bucks a week and a Thursday off once a month, is that who you're thinking of? Your slave?"

They would say, "I don't like you." I said, "I don't like you, either."

But you didn't retreat from controversy

Oh, yes. You have to go serve it up.

And in that way, you think Bill Proxmire and you were similar?

Oh, I don't know that he liked to stir it up. He was more patient and -1 don't know. He was a

loner in many ways. He wasn't a back slapper as I remember, or a hail-fellow-well-met. He

worked like a dog. People in Wisconsin loved him, and they loved his philosophy. They loved

his work ethic. They loved his independence. He was like Wayne Morse, who wasn't a back

slapper, either, from Oregon. I was more of a gregarious guy. I enjoyed the rich stories and telling tales with Kennedy and Bumpers. Bill was not that way. That was not Bill Proxmire. In

fact, he'd sit in the back of the room, and one time he said, "I heard laughter over there. You

were over there talking to Bumpers." He said, "What was it about?" I said, "I was telling him a

new story." He said, "Well, what was the story?" And I told it and Bill kind of went like that -

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 26 Proxmire Oral History Project (laughter) "Well, that's an interesting story," you know? He had a great twinkle in his eye and a

great wit. But he was not part of the -

The social club?

He was not elitist or anything. He was just not part of the hail-fellow-well-met joshers. But he

certainly wasn't critical of those who did that.

Do you think he was effective?

Oh, sure.

Some people may say you need to be sort of black slapping to get things done in the Senate. Do you that's true? Or do you think he got things done?

I don't know. You'd have to tell me what his success record was. I wouldn't know. Of the bills

he put in through the years, how many came into law? Or were they all just for Wisconsin? Did they have a national significance other than the Genocide [Treaty] and so on. You'd have to tell

me that. I wouldn't know.

Well I know before you got into the Senate, he had been instrumental in defeating the SST, for

example, the Supersonic Transport Jet.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 27 Proxmire Oral History Project I was there then.

You were there then?

Well, I remember when they said the program was in full swing when it was killed. The

proponent couldn't believe what had happened.

Yeah. It was sort of killed and resurrected several times; the SST, anyway.

Which was the Supersonic Transport?

Um-hmm, um-hmm. (affirmatively)

The plane?

Um-hmm. (affirmatively) It was the commercial venture. It sounds like you all shared a common philosophy on fiscal restraint, anyway Would you say that's accurate?

Well, yes. He was a believer in that. You know, we all believe in fiscal restraint unless it has to

do with our own District, our own State, and then we don't totally believe in it at all. I mean, if

you've got to come back here and raise the Buffalo Bill dam twenty-five feet so it will irrigate

and give more water to people all the way to the Montana line that costs "blank" million bucks.

Is that a boondoggle or is that doing your job?

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 28 Proxmire Oral History Project I'm wondering if you remember any particular issues you disagreed on. I know you had said you

were involved in nuclear waste and disposal, and I know he had fought against some nuclear

waste in Wisconsin. I'm wondering if you remember any particular one.

Well, they all fought that, you know. Hell, they all did. Bennett Johnston, a Democrat, Jim

McClure, a Republican, Gary Hart, a Democrat, and me - put together the Nuclear High Level

Waste Act, and it passed. And the reason it passed is because we put it into full effect in twenty

years, and we said that it couldn't be vetoed. And a lot of Senators said, "Boy, that's great; twenty years from now, who will remember?" Well, the twenty years came up a few years back,

and guess what? Harry Reid (of Nevada), he was then in the saddle. And man, oh, man, they've

already spent ten to twelve billion dollars on Yucca Mountain (Nevada). And now Obama's

keeping a promise to Harry to, "By God, just forget it." He said, "Well, that's too bad, but it's

not taxpayers' money." Well, it sure as hell is, because it's the utilities' money, and the utilities

are just charging (through their rates) the poor, old citizens to build Yucca Mountain. I guess it

will just sit there until Harry Reid is gone and they surely will use it, without question sometime.

So I would get up when the people would be moaning and playing the violin music about nuclear

high level waste. I said, "Great," - and here's where you whip them -1 said, "Okay. There's a

hundred and six reactors. Whether you like it or not, they're here. They're on stream." And at that point, they were cranking out forty-five thousand metric tons of spent fuel, sitting in sixty

feet of de-mineralized water filled with boron. You could walk on a ramp right across the top of the tank; no containment vessel there. And if the water disappeared from the top of the spent

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 29 Proxmire Oral History Project fuel, it would become re-critical in ten to fourteen days. That doesn't mean it's going to blow up,

it just starts to crackle again and begin to send off radiation.

Hour lb/20:00 AS's Thoughts on Social Security, Special Interest Groups

So, let's just leave it there. We don't want to move any of that anywhere. We want to build a

new pool out beside every reactor, with just the concrete around it, and just let the stuff sit. I

said, "Is that the smart thing to do?" I said, sarcastically, "So I don't need to listen to this crap

about getting that stuff somewhere into a more secure situation like France has done and any

country that uses nuclear power!" They glassify it in France and drop it in a hole. Anyway, that

answer just irritates people to death, you see, because that's the truth. That's not, "Well, they'll

never bring it around here. If one of those canisters (of spent fuel) hit the wall and broke open,

we'd all die here or wherever." I'd say, "Well, in tests they dropped them off a thirty story

building. It never did anything to the container, but if you believe that, well. . ." Another way to

irritate: Let's take Social security, you know, some old fart with all the money in the world is

knocking down two thousand a month without any affluence testing, no means testing. "Well,

you can't do anything to these are old people." Yeah, well, I'm an old fart, now too. I'm seventy-

seven and I'm knocking down twenty-four hundred a month. And folks will say; By God, I put it

in from the beginning and By God, I'm going to get it all back. Well, I really had a theme on that

one, because I'd get up and say, when I'd be about sixty-five years old. I'd say, "Okay, anybody

here my age?" "Yep." "Are you bitching about Social Security?" "Yep, I sure am. Want to see it

all back to me." I said, "Great. May we now look at what you and I have put into it. When I was

fifteen, I worked for the Cody bakery and put in five bucks for the whole year for social

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 30 Proxmire Oral History Project security." "And then I was a student at college and you only paid Social Security if you earned

over three thousand a year. No kid in America earned three thousand bucks a year in the

summer, so I never paid a thing. I went to the Army and paid in. You don't now, but then you

did. And then I practiced law for eighteen years. And you know what, guys? I don't know what

you did, but it doesn't make any difference because if you were self-employed like I was, you

never put in over eight hundred and seventy-four bucks a year." And then in the audience there's

usually this crouching down, you know; their butt contracts and they begin to slink down in the

chair. And then I said, "Then it went up to eleven hundred bucks, to twelve hundred and more

each year. And now, of course, it's eight or nine grand. And so you who retired in '83 or '84 or

'85 got all yours back in the first two and a half to three years of the benefit period. And you're

bitching? And then there were the "notch babies?" I said, "Show me a notch baby, and I'll put a

notch in their head." I said that at a public meeting. Anyway, it makes no sense. Now, listen to this one. This lasts one minute. Part B premiums on Medicare are for physician and durable

goods reimbursement. That premium cost, when I left the Senate, was a hundred and eighty a

month. And the beneficiary was supposed to pay fifty percent. So now the beneficiary is paying

only twenty-five percent and you know why?

Fifty percent, you said.

Because a politician could get elected and say, "This is terrible for some poor taxpayer to pay

fifty percent, so let's make them only pay thirty-eight percent." And finally they got it back

down to twenty-five. You can get elected forever on that. And I'll be damned. I'd get up and say,

"Well, this is great. So, regardless of your net worth or your income, you're paying twenty-five

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 31 Proxmire Oral History Project percent of the premium and the people in the kitchen in this ritzy hotel are paying the other

seventy-five percent. What do you think about that for fairness?" And there's just silence. And that's what's happened in America. America is consumed with special interests, and this poor

President, God bless him. I wish him every success. But these sons of bitches are starting to tear

him to bits from quarters he never knew when in the Senate: the health care people, the veterans.

"Well, yes you have to do something there, Mr. President. But, don't forget, you can't do

anything here to my program." The corn guys or the wheat guys, I mean, everyone you know.

We need Bay Barns because it's a milk cow with three hundred and ten million tits. And that's

America right now, and Obama's got his finger in the dike. But always I would bring those things up. I just wouldn't let those go by. I'm not going to listen to emotion, fear, guilt and

racism. It doesn't matter what the issue. You could ask the Hispanic groups - when I'd have a

hearing, I'd get the toughest people on the other side. I said, "I don't want somebody I can pick

on at the hearing, and sit up there and beat him to death with a gavel. I want some son of a bitch

who's totally opposite to whatever I'm having the hearing for. And I want the best guy in the

country." And my staff would get him. And then we'd have a legitimate debate, legitimate. Like,

"You can't do this." I'd say, "Why not?" Bill Gates comes in before Ted Kennedy and said,

"Well, Mr. Gates why is it that you're saying you can't hire people who are totally ready to work

who are from Rensselaer [Polytechnic Institute] and MIT [Massachusetts Institute of

Technology]. They're out of work, and you say you have to get your best people from Germany

and India. Why is that?" "Well, it's a serious issue, you know (pretending to cough) they have

extra skills." And Kennedy and I said, "No, it's not that it's the fact that you're paying them twenty-five percent less, and you like that." They'll go beat you up, man when you do that. Beat

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 32 Proxmire Oral History Project you up bad. But that's what I did. If I had any reputation, it wasn't that I was just a nettlesome,

ornery bastard. It was that I was saying, "This is bullshit."

It also sounds like you weren't beholden, really, to special interests in a way that you think a lot

of politicians are today.

Well, I had total freedom. The people of Wyoming gave me total freedom. I did town meetings

all the time. I'd come back home.

And you didn't need to raise a lot of money?

Oh, yeah. I think the second campaign I raised a million one, and that was Big. And then the last time I ran, my opponent couldn't even qualify to register with the FEC because she didn't raise

over five thousand bucks. It was a young student from Casper College who ran solely on the

issue of abortion. That was her issue - that I was like a baby killer. She never called me that; her

supporters did. We keep in touch. She went on to have more children, and she is a wonderful

woman; busy now in Fort Collins. But, you know, I was embarrassed. I had a kitty of a million

and one and she couldn't even raise five grand. I spent most of it for computers. You know, your

staff would say, "You gotta have a new computer." And they were big, you know, they filled a

warehouse!

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 33 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, it's interesting to me that you went against your Party platform in being pro-choice and

Bill Proxmire was pro-life, and so went also against his Party platform. And here I see two politicians —

Was the Party platform in Wisconsin that abortion should not be part of—

Well, at least, you know, it's debatable, because it was at times pro-choice, sometimes not. But

he, in terms of the Democratic Party Platform nationally, I think, differed with them on a number

of issues, just like you did. And I think that's an interesting parallel between you two, that you

both sort of were independent of Party politics in some ways. And also because you probably

weren't beholden to a lot of special interest, because he didn't raise any money for his last

several terms when he ran for office.

I think he didn't take any money from anybody, did he? No PACS [Political Action Committee

Funds] or anything? Didn't he pride himself on that?

Um-hmm, um-hmm. (affirmatively)

Where did he get his money? (laughter) I mean, you gotta pay for some of that stuff.

Well, that's a good question. And by the end of the last few terms, he really didn't — he

campaigned like you did by going all around the State.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 34 Proxmire Oral History Project But he had to have advertising. And somebody, I suppose they'd give him a hundred bucks and

he'd list that, or five hundred; but he didn't take PAC money, if I remember.

Were there other pet issues of his that you followed at all? I know you had mentioned The

Golden Fleece Awards when we talked.

Hour lb/29:45 Golden Fleece Awards, Accusing BP of his own Golden Fleece

Oh, my God, I've been waiting for that! Oh, that was a riot. Because, you know, I'd go to town

meetings and invariably, somebody would get up and say, "Well Simpson, what are you

dragging home in the way of money around here? You guys are all spending like drunks. I was

reading The Reader's Digest there about the Golden Fleece Awards, and they come out every

month." I think they were in The Reader's Digest, or somewhere. They were in national

publications. And it was Bill Proxmire's baby, The Golden Fleece Award. He might hit grazing

fees in Nevada or something; pay corn for the corn guys. So I thought, "Wait a minute. This isn't

right. This is not right." I said, "I know one thing that ol' Billy Proxmire does with great, great

energy, and that is he drags that dairy money back to Wisconsin by the metric ton." So I went to the Department of Agriculture and other sources and got a list of appropriations and funding to the dairy industry in Wisconsin -1 didn't care about any other State - during Bill Proxmire's term in the US Senate to that current date. Well, I tell you, it was a big figure; big time. So after

getting hit over the head by, another person about The Golden Fleece Award, I was in the

subway car one day with Bill, and I said, "Bill, I just want to tell you something. I think The

Golden Fleece Award is a very popular thing in America and obviously you're getting a lot of

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 35 Proxmire Oral History Project mileage out of that, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I want to know about your part in that." In a low voice he said, "What would that be, Alan?" And I said, "How much dairy money

have you dragged back to Wisconsin since you've been here?" "Oh," he said, "I have no idea."

But he said, "It's a critical thing." He said, "These are little dependent communities of four

hundred or six hundred or eight hundred people." "Well," I said, "I've got communities in

Wyoming that are two hundred, four hundred, six hundred, eight hundred people, but I don't

drag money back to them by the metric ton." "What do you mean?" And I said, "Well, here's the

figure that since your time in the Senate, here's what you have delivered to the dairy industry in

Wisconsin." "Oh," he said, "Alan, but that's a humane thing." I said, "Just let's get off of that.

That's what you did. To Wyoming people, that is a Golden Fleece. To New York people, that's a

Golden Fleece. So you are apart of this, and I am just offended to keep reading this stuff about it

when you're doing your share of bringing home the bacon in your quiet, effective way." I never

saw any more of the Golden Fleece. I don't know when it ended, but I'd be very interested when

it stopped. I have no idea when it stopped.

Doyou remember when you had this conversation with him?

No. All I remember is that he smiled, and he wasn't irritated at all. I think he might have even

patted my hand. He said, "Well, this is interesting, Alan, what you've done here." I said, "I think

it is, Bill. I just think, you know, you can't set yourself out of this. You're in it, too." And all I

remember, he didn't - like I might have said, "Well, Al, I think that's a chicken shit thing you've

done there." (laughter) or pay, What did you do that for?" Nope, he was very gracious. I never

saw him ungracious. He said, "That's very interesting, what you're saying, there, Alan. I hadn't

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 36 Proxmire Oral History Project thought of that. . ." Whatever it was, I don't want to be self-serving, he's gone. But he received

it with equanimity and kindness instead of irritation, but he heard me.

Let me pause the interview right here and change the tape.

HOUR 2

Hour 2/00:00 BP's Persistence, Ratification of Genocide Treaty, Letters from BP to AS

This is hour number two of my interview with Al Simpson on June 2n 2009, Bill Proxmire. We 're

talking about the Golden Fleece, and I was wondering whether you think the awards had any positive effect on government, or if it was purely grandstanding and a publicity stunt?

Well, I never ever used those terms. Don't nail me with saying it was grandstanding.

No, no.

But I never thought it was that.

Okay.

It was just sincerity. He'd picked these things out, and he had a staff picking them out. You

know, there'd be the Lawrence Welk Dance Studio in Fargo or something. And people loved it.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 37 Proxmire Oral History Project Or a study, "Do Swine Sweat?" in Iowa. But they all had a purpose. But you can pick any of those out like they do today. One of them in the pork barrel list this year is that they found a

hundred and ninety one thousand dollars granted to the Buffalo Bill Historical Center for the

compilation of the digital records, all the records, of Buffalo Bill Cody, and it was listed as a

"pork project." Well, a hundred and ninety one thousand [emphasis added] dollars, not million.

And the whole purpose - and the Wyoming legislature put up about three hundred thousand and

we raised another three hundred thousand personally, and the delegation put in for it four years

ago. And it was described as a piece of pork in the midst of millions- it's like a sparrow belch in the midst of a typhoon. But that's the kind of stuff that would go on. And now in this place, the

Historical Center will receive all of the collections of Buffalo Bill from the world over in this

one place. But no, I think it was very important, what he did. I never considered it bad; he

wasn't a pompous man. He was a populist. He had that look. And I can see him walking right

now and smiling. And they loved him. I mean, they liked to touch his clothing as he went through Wisconsin. He was just their Bill; Bill Proxmire - Mr. Straight Arrow - Mr. Rectitude -

Mr. Integrity. Well, that's great, and I think he was all those things. But, again, the Golden

Fleece Awards never came up again because nobody wanted to touch it, because they all knew that in their own District, they were hauling it home. I did take a crack at the corn guys once. I

said, "You know, you know how to make more money for corn in Iowa?" and my old pal

Grassley [Senator Chuck Grassley] said, "How?" And I said, "Put up a second mailbox." And

Grassley said, "Alan, you've got to quit telling those terrible kind of jokes. Those are so bad."

But no, they'll never come again, because - here's a classic example: I remember my friend John

McCain got up in a caucus and was really hot to get rid of the Seawolf Submarine in

Connecticut. That was Chris Dodd's baby. He said, "We're not going to support another two

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 38 Proxmire Oral History Project billion dollar submarine. We've got all the subs we need." And I think we killed it. We all said,

"Boy, that's right." It wasn't a partisan vote, but it was close. And old John said, "That's what

we have to do. We have to always fight to cut this waste." And he's doing it right now. So the

next weekend at our Caucus and all of us were there. I said, "John, that was a great stroke you

did on the old submarine and we probably didn't need it, but I tell ya, I've got an idea now about the way you and I can do some real good. You and I are going to go to Sun City, Arizona together. And I'm going to speak on affluence testing of Social Security and Medicare benefits,

and you're going to be right there with me because that is a great waste." And he smiled and he

said, "You son of a bitch." (laughter) You can't have it both ways. John McCain would never take on those old farts in Sun City. There they are. Now do you think they want affluence testing? We said once, "Look, anybody earning over sixty or seventy thousand bucks a year, not

counting their pension and their social security and any private assets, with that income stream they are going to have to pay something toward the support of Medicare and Medicaid or the

system." Oh! The nastiest letters I ever got in my life were from old farts living in gated

communities. It's a phony. The whole thing is just phony. John can't do anything. He can't. He's

in Arizona, he represents so many seniors- but again, you don't want to give others instructions

about what they need to do about their little projects and earmarks.

7 don't know what Proxmire's stance on that would be, but I imagine he would be in agreement

with you, given some of his — on the affluence testing.

Oh, I think he would have. Yeah, we don't call it "means testing". That's too nasty. We use

"affluence testing". Means means you're mean. Anyway, I even had a hearing about the AARP

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 39 Proxmire Oral History Project [American Association of Retired Persons]. I called them in, and God Almighty, you have never

seen such shrieking in all your life. And of course all my colleagues came into the hearing and

said, "Al, thank you for what you're doing. This is a critical thing that you are going to do to

examine some of these things with the AARP. I wish I could stay for this hearing, but I have two

other hearings ..." It looked like an empty bowling alley. Nobody (member) ever showed up,

because I was punching their lights out. "How much do you make?" "What do you do with your

money?" Anyway, that was such fun.

Tell me about what you remember about Proxmire's political skills, his procedural knowledge,

Senate rules or a way that people get their agenda across. Do you have any?

I don't know if the record would ever show that he might have had a parliamentarian type person

on his staff. By that I mean nothing was wrong; that's quite legitimate. Kennedy had a

parliamentarian on his staff that he paid from his own funds, not from the Senate salary, because

we have a parliament. But I borrowed him once. I had gotten in a procedural box, and I said to

Kennedy, "Loan me your parliamentarian. I don't even know where I am on their legislate bent

here!." So he did. But Proxy always, whenever they would challenge him about bringing

something again that he had brought to the floor a hundred times, and they'd say, "We'll do that

next August, Bill." And he'd say, "No, you won't. You've told me that before. I've heard that.

Because under rule so-and-so or the precedents of the Senate . . ." He had that stuff in his hip

pocket and you had to give him his opportunity. He knew the game, and was very skilled at that;

doggedly, again, kindly, smiling and persistent, just coming on, just kept coming on.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 40 Proxmire Oral History Project So you were the Assistant Majority Leader in the Republican Party for ten years, right?

That's right, (affirmatively)

How was he viewed by the Republican Party'?

Hmm?

How do you think everybody on the Republican side viewed him?

Oh, I think some of them, the far right, the extremists of my Party thought he was just a total

irritant, especially with the Genocide thing. I could name a few who thought it was some trick to

gather up all the mentally ill and take them to Alaska and shoot them. I don't know. It was

beyond my comprehension. Some of the stuff, you know, that they would invent to hold him off.

I mean, it took years for him to get it done. You'd think genocide would not be the most popular

sport in America, and yet he couldn't seem to get it done.

Well, he did get it done, eventually.

He did.

It was ratified under Reagan in '86,1 believe.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 41 Proxmire Oral History Project I was just sending a lot of stuff to the University of Wyoming Archives, and I didn't do this for

you, but that whole pile there-1 have hundreds of personal letters from my colleagues, not just,

"Hi, Al." You know, but thanks - handwritten stuff. And here this was - I'll give you these -

"February 24, '86. 'Dear Alan: You were so generous and gracious in the remarks you made on the floor of the Senate about my many speeches on behalf of the Genocide Convention. I'm

deeply grateful. And I also want to congratulate you on the critical role you play, and I'm sure

you will play, in connection with the enabling legislation for the Treaty that comes before the

Judiciary Committee. Thanks a million, Alan. Sincerely, Bill [Proxmire].'" And then something

at the bottom I can read - "tremendous" - or something. And another, "Dear Alan: June 20l ,

'84. Bless your heart and thanks a million for joining the little -just six - band of economizers

who voted for the Proxmire Amendment to stop home-to work-and-back chauffer and limousine

service for DOD [Department of Defense] big brass." Boy, I thought that was a hell of a good

amendment. He said this was not only a vote that most people can understand and support, it was

right, even if it was a lonely battle. "I'm in your debt. Sincerely...." And then another one,

something about, "Congratulations on your smashing family. They're gorgeous. Ellen and I

enjoyed your beautiful card..." You can keep those. Throw them in your stack. And there may

be more, but I'm going through everything because I must cull out the rich limericks that have

been passed to each other in tedium, you know. And some of them were very bad, you know,

from the President or someone. You just tear them up. Crude would be a word. Reagan told the

craziest jokes and none of them ever got out into the public because they so loved him. Any

other President - if some of those jokes got into the public, they would have cremated him.

Hour 2/11:00 Changes in the Senate, BP's Physical Fitness Regimen

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 42 Proxmire Oral History Project Oh, really?

Oh, yeah. Oh, Proxmire - oh, yeah, he would vex them, (fellow members). They'd say, "Well,

I've got to get my bill up." "Well, I know, but Proxy's got a half hour on the schedule today."

"Well, what about?" I'd say, "I don't know what about, but he'll only take his time and he'll

speak, and that's the way it is." He'd ask for the time and he'd go to Dole and I. We were the

leaders when we were in the Majority and I always thought, "Give him his time . .." I'll come in

early and sit in the chair so Bill can do it, or I'll chair as Byrd can relate the history of the

Peloponnesian Alps and how Hannibal got trapped there in snow. I did that for Byrd, I did,

because I loved Robert Byrd.

Well it's interesting, because you mention the camaraderie that existed in the Senate as

something of the past. You know, that you would go over to each other's homes for dinner; that

there was more collegiality across the aisle. Did you see that change in the years that you were

there?

Oh, yes.

And how do you account for that change?

Well, I think television in the chamber. And I reluctantly voted for it. I resisted it for a long time.

Robert Byrd was right. He got on the floor. He said, "You know, the House is televised and

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 43 Proxmire Oral History Project we're not. And so the people of America just see a House of Representatives and don't know the

beauty of this Senate institution, and I think we must go to that medium." So we did, but it was

disruptive. You still had the same show horses and the same work horses. And then you had to

go raise money all the time. So weekends come. You're either in your district or you're raising

money for your next campaign. That's the cancer. That's what's ruined things and that's why

Bill Bradley and I and Warren Rudman and Bob Kerrey are co-chairmen of Americans for

Campaign Reform. Either you get this cancer money, out of the system, or you spend your whole

day raising bucks - Dole would say,"We're voting tonight." Members would say, "Well, I gotta

be in Detroit. I gotta fundraiser. I gotta fundraiser in San Francisco." Dole got up one day and he

said, "Guess what? You get paid to legislate. Where are you?" Anyway, enough of that, but -

yeah, that all changed. And then you're just so damn busy, you hardly see your own family. And

when I'd be home, Ann and I would go out in the tiny backyard, which was smaller than that

patio and just have an evening together. And you couldn't do it in Wyoming, because you were

at a town meeting or you were doing everything. So you had these very few private times so you

didn't want to be with others. Anyway, don't feel sorry for us.

Did you know much about Proxmire's personal life or his family? Did you have a personal friendship or connection with him at all?

I just knew that Ellen was active with her business. She had a business. I don't know when that

started or what all it entailed, but it was a hostess business of putting together things: seminars,

lunches, dinners. I don't know what all.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript AA Proxmire Oral History Project Sort of professional organizing kinds of things, um-hmm. (affirmatively)

Yes. And so I'd go to some evening thing or something, and there'd be Ellen. "How are you, Al?

I'd say: "Is this your gig, here?" "Yeah, this is mine. This is one of mine." And she would have

my wife, Ann, come to greet and speak to her group. She liked Ann. I never really knew her too

well. I didn't know if he had children or not. Did he?

Um-hmm, um-hmm. (affirmatively)

How many?

Well, he had five.

Five. I don't think I ever met any of them and never knew where they were or what they did. I

don't know why we never talked about that. There wasn't time.

Right. You did know a few of his personal habits. You said you picked him up running once.

Um-hmm. (affirmatively)

Tell me about that.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 45 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, he was a physical fitness nut. And not a nut - he wasn't a nut, but physical fitness was his thing: walking, running, in shorts, until I guess his knees gave out or his ankles, which is what happened to everybody I ever saw that ran, including George the First and Strom [Thurmond], and all of them. You break down. You can't do that. So he'd say, "Alan, you must keep up your exercise." I'd say, "Well, I'm not going to run. I'm a knock-kneed and it hurts." "Well, I know, but you have to keep up." And so he would. There was a gym near his office. I don't remember the details, but they said they were going to close the gym. It must have been in the Russell

Building. It certainly wasn't in the Hart Building... I don't remember. He said, "Oh, my. That's something I've always used." So I remember they left that for him. It had a shower. I don't know what was in it. It wasn't a gym. But he would run and perspire and then he'd go to that place. He didn't go over to the big gym in the Russell Building with the swimming pool and the sauna.

And then you'd see him out running. When did he leave the Senate?

Well, he didn't run again after '89. His last term started in '82, so he retired in '89, early '89.

But then he stuck around the Capitol.

Yeah. He had an office.

He had a Capitol office.

Um-hmm. (affirmatively)

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 46 Proxmire Oral History Project Okay, that was it. That's what I remember. They let him have that little enclave there. I would

see him out running. And he would run or walk home, which I don't know how far it was, but it

was quite a ways, it seemed to me as a non-runner!

Like fives miles or something, yeah.

Yes. So one hot day, I remember -1 didn't have a driver then. I did for awhile when I was

Assistant Leader. But I was out driving and there he was, running through the neighborhoods of

Washington. He never had many staffers around him. I don't think he was comfortable with them. I don't think he liked that. I never saw an entourage around him. So he ran with, you

know, abandon. And it was a hot day. And I said, "Hey, Bill. Would you like a ride?" And he

looked in and he said, "I would. I really would." So he got in, and he said, "How's it going?" He

was out of the Senate then. I described things and sat in front of his house for awhile, kind of

brought him up to speed, you know. And that was that.

Was that he last time you saw him?

Well, I think I gave him another ride one other time, but then I left. When did he die?

2005.

Okay. Well, I left in'96.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 47 Proxmire Oral History Project Okay.

So I never saw him again after '95 or '96. And I went to Harvard and taught for four spring

semesters, four years. So I think the last time I saw him is when I picked him up and dropped

him off at his house and that was it.

You knew about his Alzheimer's, though, at some point?

I did. I heard that - whether it was true or not that he was - "in the mist" -1 love the phrase -

"He was in the mist" - and that they had a room set up that looked like his office, and that he

came there and did whatever he did. Is that true, where he had a kind of a room that reminded

him of his Senate office and he would go there?

Hour 2/20:20 BP's Alzheimer's, BP's Political Characteristics, BP's Speculated Views on Today's Bailouts

I've heard that, yeah.

I've heard that. You don't know that?

Well I've heard it. I don't know for sure.

Anyway, that's great to do; whatever they would have done to comfort him. And I'm sure his

children must have been a great comfort to him in his Alzheimer's. How long did he have it?

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 48 Proxmire Oral History Project Oh, a good—well, he probably sort of had inklings of it when he decided to retire.

Reagan did. Reagan had those inklings.

So looking back on him, is there something that you think the public should know about William

Proxmire in terms of his legacy, or that politicians or historians who study his life should

understand about him?

Well, I'm sure that many others could add more flesh to the bone than I, but he just was a guy

you had to greatly admire for his absolute patience, undying directness, doggedness, persistence.

You would want him on your side, instead of opposed to you. I never saw him in debate ever get

irritated or raise his voice, and as I think about it, I don't remember that he would ever just come

on the floor for some ancillary debate. He always had some reason. Others would wander onto the floor, and say, "I've got a statement here. It's national hard cookie month in Maryland." I've

got to get that in. My pal, Mathias had the beaten biscuit recipe from Maryland. I said, "I tried

one. They're like eating a bullet." He said, "Alan, don't make fun of the Maryland beaten

biscuits!"

Do you remember getting into any big debates with Proxmire yourself? Any arguments over policy?

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 49 Proxmire Oral History Project I can't remember where he was on immigration reform, which was very emotional, and yet I got that first bill passed by a big vote. It was a wonderful vote of seventy-nine or something to -1 think Proxmire, just seeing my own doggedness, voted with me most of the way through that

one. He'd say, "This is a terrible issue, Alan. It's very emotional and it gets people all stirred

up." You know, racism, bigotry, xenophobia, all of those things are in here. And he said, "I think

you're doing a good job weaving your web through there." So I think he appreciated that. I think there's something in the Congressional Record. In those days when you finished a big bill, guys

came to the floor and they'd say, "Oh, God, look at Al Simpson, what he's done with this

marvelous piece of legislation." I have a hunch that Proxmire - I don't know - but I have a

hunch there were his pieces in the record, because he would see things that I'd get into where the

vote would be - you know, I voted against the creation of Secretary of Veterans Affairs. I said,

"What the hell do we need that for? If any group in America gets taken care of better than any

other, it's veterans. Now what's next? A Senior Citizens cabinet member- are we going to have a

Youth cabinet member?" There were only five votes, I think, against it. John Kerrey was one-

he said, "This is bullshit." And I said, "You ain't kidding!" And I think it was Danforth and I and

about three others. A Secretary of Veterans Affairs? There's no need for that. But, anyway,

Proxmire would have liked that, whether he voted - that was after he was gone, but he liked that

kind of stuff. You know, take 'em on!

What do you think he would have responded with today about the Wall Street financial crisis and

the government bailouts? Do you have any sense of his economic take?

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 50 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, first I think he'd be heartbroken that a capitalistic system could be so filled with greed that

it would bring itself down. I mean, it wasn't the Democrats or the Republicans that brought it

down. It was these greedy sons of bitches themselves who did it. Poor old Greenspan, they tried to blame him for this or that. That's wrong, he said, "No", he said, "I just never dreamed that these great institutions of America could get so consumed in self-interest and greed they would

do themselves in. That's never been part of my scene." So, that's done. Anyway, I think

Proxmire would have been literally just shaking his head, like he would get his head down and just shake it like, "What in the world?" I never heard him curse either. I don't know what the

official record shows, but I did a little cursing for him! I used to curse for Dole. Dole didn't curse

much, so I was his designated curser. And Proxy, he didn't like that stuff. But I think he'd have just shaken his head and just said, "How did we ever get to this in our country, where the

institution, themselves cratered: Fannie May, Fannie Max, Sallie Mae. How did we get here?"

He would have been sickened. That's my view.

After having been in politics for so many years, do you think your views changed on certain

things? Did he influence your views?

They did what?

Did your views change, whether it be on economics or foreign policy or social issues?

Well again, I just saw how people used those four previous elements to pass or kill a piece of

legislation, but I never thought of quitting the Party or the Senate; although when I lost the office

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 51 Proxmire Oral History Project of Assistant Leader by one vote, and then after George Bush left -1 mean, I've known George

and Barbara since '62; and to have his eight years as Vice President and his four as President and

be in the White House, having soup late at night and going to plays with them. I knew that I'll

never have that kind of stuff again. I liked Clinton, especially when he and I used to tell some

rich and wonderful stories. He loved that. And I did, too. But I thought, "Why should I stay

around here and never have a relationship like that again with any President?" It doesn't matter

who it would be. So I stepped away without any thought of bitterness. But some others stepped

away with bitterness. Not the ones I knew, not Bradley or Nancy Kassebaum or Cohen or any of

us. We just stepped away; just didn't want to do it anymore; and they were dear friends and are today. But, it's hard to watch. And I keep up. I read Roll Call and [The] Hill and all the stuff that

goes with it. But, you know, sad to see Leahy whacking on Hatch, and Hatch whacking on Leahy

- seems like a waste of time. Now this Supreme Court nomination [Sonia Sotomayer], will be a

bruiser, and it shouldn't be. Well, here's a little tidbit: I voted to place seven of the nine people

on the Court [Supreme Court]; voted for every one of them, and listened to their testimony. And

Ruth Ginsburg, Souter; Steve Breyers is one of my dearest friends. He's magnificent. He was on

Kennedy's staff when I came to the Senate. Well, enough of that. This is not about me. So what

about - ask about Proxy.

Well, I have the same sort of question. I don't know whether you have an answer for it, but

whether you influenced his views in anything? Do you think you changed his mind, or did he

change his positions on anything that you know of?

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 52 Proxmire Oral History Project I wouldn't be able to discern that. You don't know who was on every roll call vote. You don't remember. You vote thousands of times, and you think, "I wonder if Proxy was there? Was he in the debate?" Good grief. I can't imagine I influenced him too much. He influenced me, obviously, with the Treaty [Genocide Treaty] and I was one of the ones that said, "What the hell, why are we not passing this thing?"

Hour 2/30:05 BP's Legacy

Well, I don't have any more questions about his career. If there's anything else you can think about in terms of his legacy and what you would hope people might study when they review his political career and the way that he occupied that position, what one might learn.

I don't know. I never saw him campaign, but I imagine that he generated great respect. Whatever his issues were, they would likely say, "Well, he was a gutsy guy and he stuck by his guns and did it his way. Like the old song -1 Did it My Way — that was what I would think they would respect. With me, people I see around the country will say, "You know, I don't agree with you at all, but I respect you because I watched you on this or that, and I thought you were a son of a bitch on this, but you did have a point." And I think that's all you want to leave. And I think he did. You didn't have to agree with him, but he had a point and he pursued it. And that's all you can do in public life, in the midst of small, clutching, sweaty hands who like to pull you down

(dramatically); the dizzy little bastards who don't read anything, they don't know anything, and they get into listening to crap and are filled with emotion and fear, and they reach out with their soiled, little mitts to pull you down and you just stick it to them, (laughter) But he wasn't a stick­

s/on Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 53 Proxmire Oral History Project it-to-'em guy, not Proxmire. He'd lose graciously. I was always pouting just a little, trying to

beat up somebody. As Ann says, "You're a nice guy Al, except when you're not," which, of

course, is true!

Well, it's been a pleasure interviewing you.

Well, it's been a treat. Now you're going onto Portland or somewhere?

I'm going up to Salt Lake next and visit your colleague.

Jake Garn.

Senator Garn. So we '11 see how that goes. But thank you.

Well, Jake was on the Banking Committee with him, wasn't he?

Um-hmm, um-hmm. (affirmatively)

Four years. So I'll bet Jake will have some very fond [memories].

So we 're closing the interview now.

Alan Kooi Simpson Interview Transcript 54 Proxmire Oral History Project