DAILY

YOUR VOICE IN PARLIAMENT

THE SECONDSECOND MEETING MEETING OF THEOF SECONDTHE FIFTH SESSION SESSION OF THEOF THEELEVEN TWELFTHTH PARLIAMENT PARLIAMENT WEDNESDAY 14 APRIL 2021

MIXEDENGLISH VERSION VERSION HANSARDHANSARD NO. 193201

DISCLAIMER Uno cial Hansard This transcript of Parliamentary proceedings is an uno cial version of the Hansard and may contain inaccuracies. It is hereby published for general purposes only. The nal edited version of the Hansard will be published when available and can be obtained from the Assistant Clerk (Editorial). THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon. Phandu T. C. Skelemani PH, MP. DEPUTY SPEAKER The Hon. Mabuse M. Pule, MP. (Mochudi East)

Clerk of the National Assembly - Ms B. N. Dithapo Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly - Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe Acting Learned Parliamentary Counsel - Ms K. Kokoro Assistant Clerk (E) - Mr R. Josiah CABINET His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP. - President

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP. (Boteti West) - Vice President Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. K. N. S. Morwaeng, MP. (Molepolole South) - Administration

Hon. K. T. Mmusi, MP. (Gabane-Mmankgodi) - Minister of Defence, Justice and Security

Hon. Dr L. Kwape, MP. (Kanye South) - Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation Hon. E. M. Molale, MP. (Goodhope-Mabule ) - Minister of Local Government and Rural Development Hon. K. S. Gare, MP. (Moshupa-Manyana) - Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation Hon. P. K. Kereng, MP. (Specially Elected) - and Tourism Hon. Dr E. G. Dikoloti MP. (Mmathethe-Molapowabojang) - Minister of Health and Wellness Hon. T.M. Segokgo, MP. (Tlokweng) - Minister of Transport and Communications Hon. K. Mzwinila, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. T. M. Rakgare, MP. (Mogoditshane) - Development

Hon. A. M. Mokgethi, MP. (Gaborone Bonnington North) - Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Hon. Dr T. Matsheka, MP. (Lobatse) - Minister of Finance and Economic Development Hon. F. M. M. Molao, MP. (Shashe West) - Minister of Basic Education Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Hon. Dr D. Letsholathebe, MP. (Tati East) - Technology Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Hon. L. M. Moagi, MP. (Ramotswa) - Energy Security

Hon. P. O. Serame, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Hon. M. Balopi, MP. (Gaborone North) - Development

Hon. M. Kgafela, MP. (Mochudi West) - Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development

Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Hon. D. M. Mthimkhulu, MP. (Gaborone South) - Public Administration Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. K. K. Autlwetse, MP. (Specially Elected) - Development Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. S. N. Modukanele, MP. (Lerala -Maunatlala) - Development Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Hon. B. Manake, MP. (Specially Elected) - Security

Hon. S. Lelatisitswe, MP. (Boteti East) - Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness

Hon. N. W. T. Makwinja, MP. (Lentsweletau-Mmopane) - Assistant Minister, Basic Education

Hon. M. S. Molebatsi, MP. (Mmadinare) - Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. H. B. Billy, MP. (Francistown East) - Development Hon. M. R. Shamukuni, MP. (Chobe) - Assistant Minister,Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

Names Constituency

RULING PARTY (Botswana Democratic Party) Hon. L. Kablay, MP. (Government Whip) Letlhakeng-Lephephe Hon. Dr U. Dow, MP. Specially Elected Hon. P. Majaga, MP. Nata-Gweta Hon. M. I. Moswaane, MP. Francistown West Hon. J. S. Brooks, MP. Kgalagadi South Hon. C. Greeff, MP. Gaborone Bonnington South Hon. T. Letsholo, MP. Kanye North Hon. T. F. Leuwe, MP. Takatokwane Hon. T. Mangwegape-Healy, MP. Gaborone Central Hon. S. N. Moabi, MP. Tati West Hon. T. Monnakgotla, MP. Kgalagadi North Hon. P. K. Motaosane, MP. Thamaga-Kumakwane Hon. O. Regoeng, MP. Molepolole North Hon. J. L. Thiite, MP. Ghanzi North Hon. A. Lesaso, MP. Shoshong Hon. P. P. P. Moatlhodi, MP. Tonota OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon. D. Saleshando, MP. (Leader of Opposition) Maun West Hon. M. G. J. Motsamai, MP. (Opposition Whip) Ghanzi South Hon. D. L. Keorapetse, MP. Selebi Phikwe West Hon. Y. Boko, MP Mahalapye East Hon. Dr K. Gobotswang, MP. Sefhare-Ramokgonami Hon. C. K. Hikuama, MP. Ngami Hon. K. K. Kapinga, MP Okavango Hon. G. Kekgonegile, MP. Maun East Hon. T. B. Lucas, MP. Bobonong Hon. K. Nkawana, MP. Selebi Phikwe East Hon. O. Ramogapi, MP. Palapye Hon. Dr N. Tshabang, MP. Nkange Hon. D. Tshere, MP. Mahalapye West (Botswana Patriotic Front) Hon. T. S. Khama, MP. Serowe West Hon. L. Lesedi, MP. Serowe South Hon. B. Mathoothe, MP. Serowe North Hon. M. R. Reatile, MP. Jwaneng-Mabutsane (Alliance for Progressives) Hon. W. B. Mmolotsi, MP. Francistown South TABLE OF CONTENTS THE SECOND MEETING OF THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT WEDNESDAY 14TH APRIL, 2021

CONTENTS PAGE (S) Adoption of the Tourism Policy Motion (Resumed Debate)...... 1-17

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER...... 18-25 Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No. 13 of 2021) Second Reading...... 26-51 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

Wednesday 14th April, 2021 Pula businesses which accrue huge profits are not in the hands of Batswana at all. Therefore, Minister, we should THE ASSEMBLY met at 11:00 a.m. try by all means to ensure that, we assess the policies (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) that we make. Is it not time that local business people are allowed to venture into the tourism industry and become P R A Y E R S shareholders if they are interested, irrespective of where the tourism facilities are in Botswana especially since, * * * * there are some big hotels in areas where Batswana ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY and other people are unable to reach. It should be a requirement for that partnership to be put in place, even Motion if it is not the partnership of local business people, it can be partnership between the communities where those (Resumed Debate) hotels are located. MR SPEAKER (MR PULE): Order! Order! I once visited some facility in the Chobe area where Honourable Members, the debate on this Motion we were told that the owner never comes there. is resuming. When the House adjourned yesterday, Accommodation in that facility was P9000 per night. Honourable Wynter Mmolotsi was on the floor debating One time when I was in London with Honourable and he was left with 13 minutes 59 seconds. Shamukuni, I almost got fortunate to meet the owner because at that time, Honourable Shamukuni tried his MR MMOLOTSI (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): best to meet this man to try to talk to him about the Thank you very much Mr Speaker. Yesterday when we plight of employees who are working for this man but adjourned, I wanted to indicate that, we are at a point never comes to Botswana to appreciate the working as a country where all the policies that we make must conditions and the challenges they are facing. He be guided by our current situation. I believe since we pushed till he saw that person. We should not have these are plagued by high unemployment rate and poverty things Madam Minister, we must ensure that there is a as a country and our revenue streams are drying as a Motswana partner in that business so that things may country, we should ensure that the policies that we make move smoothly. My request is that, as we make policies, should be intended to improve our economy, improve we should not do these things last because they are the current situation that Batswana are facing and create going to create problems for us. employment. Right now, Batswana have been relegated to smaller We would recall that after the African National Congress facilities of guest houses and so on. I appreciate Madam (ANC) took over Government, when they realised they Minister the fact that, Batswana have been allowed to were oppressed economically, they made policies whose have guest houses without foreign interference. I believe intentions were to empower citizens economically. as we are in our country, we must know that these things Minister, as we are making this policy, we must take are opened for us. So, if now the lion’s share is reserved these things into consideration and see how this policy for foreigners, without Batswana sharing in it, it means is going to assist Batswana to be alleviated from this more money will continue to flow to foreigners. It is not bad economic situation they are facing to a better one helping us to develop the country because we know that since, the tourism sector is another way of resuscitating we do not have foreign exchange controls. Foreigners Botswana’s economy and it is renewable. repatriate all the money to their countries to develop In South Africa, they have the Black Economic them while we remain with soil erosion and wildlife. Empowerment programme which was made with the I am worried that we still practice discrimination. I am aim of improving the economy of citizens. I believe not sure whether the whites call it positive discrimination we should also use policies such as this one of Tourism owing to pricing. I believe foreigners who own hotels which you came up with, to find how we can empower at the delta, price Batswana out deliberately because Batswana economically. they do not want Batswana to visit those facilities. I Minister we know that at the current moment, the only believe we should critically look into these issues. We portion that has been set aside for Batswana is where should not find ourselves being discriminated by price they drive tourists around different areas. Multi-million in our own country. So, Minister, we need to consider

Hansard No 201 1 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

these things so that we may not find ourselves where activities around the dam. In Botswana, we have Shashe Botswana is divided into two; Botswana of the Whites and Letsibogo dams but we do not have any tourism and Botswana of Batswana in terms of access to these activities there. The truth is, there are some activities hospitality facilities. done at the river which is, dam tourism. There are serious activities which are offered there and tourists go MR MOATLHODI: On a point of clarification. Thank there to see them. It is quite shocking that whilst we you Mr Speaker. Good morning sir. Thank you very have perennial rivers, we do not do or offer any activity much Honourable Member of Francistown South. You there. We should be having many resources around are talking about that highly priced facility which costs Shashe, Letsibogo and Bokaa dams. Right now we are P9000 per night yet the Whites do not stay here, do we just sitting in these treasures, we are not making use of not have price control? In your view, what can be done? them Minister. These can be serious tourism enhancers. Thank you sir. So let us do something about these things. Let us try to MR MMOLOTSI: That is why I am saying, our enhance our tourism by diversifying it. policies must identify these arrangements and see what Minister, you have been talking about agro-tourism, that their intentions are. That is why I am saying, maybe we you are working on the guidelines so that arable farmers are living in an intentional discrimination where the can keep animals in their fields. They should construct intention is to deny Batswana access into those facilities accommodation facilities there. This great idea took you and those facilities become accessible to the Whites two years Minister and you are still failing to finalise it. only, since we know that their bookings are made in These guidelines are going to help a lot of Batswana to London and not in Botswana. You cannot just arrive join the tourism industry on the basis that many of them there and ask if they have accommodation and you want have fields. Their fields are not profiting them because to book. Even if you have that P9000, you are turned they only plough once a year. There is no motivation back because the booking is not made in Botswana but for them to do anything reasonable at the fields. If we London and South Africa, yet booking for a facility in open up and say, we are going to give you wild animals your own country. or we are inviting you to buy them and keep them in I also want to advise the Minister that the time has your fields through agro-tourism and then they construct come, even our towns should be turned into tourist accommodation facilities in their fields, they can tell destinations. When you go to Boerne in Germany, you, Francistown is surrounded by Matshelagabedi and London and America, you are going to find rivers Matsiloje. Nkamo’s father have fields at Gobosholo. flowing in their midst. That is not a natural occurrence. This way, people who have fields at Tonota can surely It does not necessarily mean those are perennial rivers, promote tourism to a reasonable degree though keeping it means those people were creative and imaginative. wildlife at their fields. Doing so will also bring about They are able to create an attractive water source in the developments at Tonota and Francistown. On the other middle of a town which may attract people to a point hand, people can sleep in those fields, including at where they start constructing industries, shops and other Matsiloje at Honourable Letsholathebe’s fields. This things. A situation where people use boats and ships to is also going to be an opportunity for them to see wild go to this beautiful site. We can do that very well in our animals without having to travel to Kasane. We can towns. We have Tati river which can be transformed to see them around the City of Francistown while we that kind of site in Francistown; we also have a very explore Nyangabgwe hill as well as see the old mines. active tourism site where there is water, this way we Moreover, they will also come to see dances performed can use canoes or big boats where we spend a night in there like Ngazula and all 10 traditional dances that we them in water. These are things that Minister, we should enjoy at Francistown. It would not be necessary this is move towards acquiring because otherwise if we decide going to create employment. This is going to grow our to use a river for tourism purposes on the basis that it is domestic economy and many youths are going to join a perennial natural resource, we will never develop this agro-tourism because their parents have many fields country. which they are not using. We know that fields were allocated to Batswana in the past. Nowadays, these We should also do something regarding the issue of fields are not used for anything. This is why you should dam tourism. International countries do not have wild speed up things and implement these guidelines where animals and many other things as such, they have Batswana are allowed to keep wildlife in their fields. We

Hansard No 201 2 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

should not see this thing done by rich foreign farmers like it was stated in our manifesto during the previous who come from outside. elections. It is clear on page 21 of BDP manifesto, that we are going to promote tourism through job creation. I am giving it my all Minister to ensure that we do We also talk about an inclusive economy, they are some something about the tourism sector. If you consider of the things we are going to consider going forth. minerals like diamonds, those are non-renewables, Protecting our tourism sites and to use them sustainable they are going to be extinct at some point. I believe such that we still have them safe in future so that our we should manage the tourism sector like we have been future generations can be able to use them. These are doing because our lives depend on it. So we should very important Minister. fight for it to ensure that it is performing well and also benefiting Botswana. I want to emphasise the point that, She also talked about Cultural Tourism which as when tourists arrive here, we should also have a plan in Botswana we are popular for our diverse cultures and place as a country such that if they want to visit their our different tribes. So they should also be promoted as desired destinations, we should expose them to… part of the digitised economy. Honourable Minister, we fully realise that your policy is presented after we have MR SPEAKER: Your time is up Honourable Mmolotsi. reviewed Revised National Development Plan (NDP) 11 which gave us an opportunity to see how we can carry MR MMOLOTSI: Thank you Mr Speaker. on during this difficult period of COVID-19, it drove MR SPEAKER: I also thank you. Before calling us to introduce Economic Recovery and Transformation the next speaker, let me confirm with Chief Whip of Plan (ERTP) which will be our guide. Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) if there is a new list here. Can you confirm that list that came this morning? The Honourable Minister highlighted the challenges we are aware of such as the fact that, some areas in MR KABLAY: Which one Mr Speaker? Are you Botswana could benefit the community. You will also referring to the one which starts with His Honour the note that the community in those areas have always Vice President (VP) then Honourable Morwaeng? been doing tourism through trusts, but it was not very clear that they were in the tourism business because of MR SPEAKER: Yes sir. poor management and administration of those trusts. So MR KABLAY: VP, Honourable Morwaeng is number Minister you have to pay close attention to this issue two. That is the one sir. and conclude on guidelines for these trusts so that there can be proper administration. People should not manage MR SPEAKER: I was preparing myself so that you do trusts according to their own personal standards such not attack me later saying I changed things on my side. that the proceeds of those trusts benefit board members. Our next speaker will be His Honour the Vice President, People even compete to be members of those boards Honourable Tsogwane. so that they can benefit, so these trusts are not going to benefit us. Proceeds from trusts should be saved HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR for purposes of benefitting the economy of different TSOGWANE): Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me start by villages. These are the issues we encounter and the commending the Minister for coming up with a policy reason why people ask questions regarding trusts in which we have long waited for. This is an indication areas like Mababe it is because of these issues which that she is bringing about many changes to ensure that are as a result of unnecessary conflicts Minister. This tourism benefits Batswana. This is where tourism is call for clear set out guidelines so that tourism in those going to be managed accordingly, expand it so that it areas can benefit Merafe in areas such as Mababe. That can be introduced in areas where it was not offered. is what we would like you to address. This policy comes at a time where we are shifting our economy from relying on natural resources to a There is an area whose tourism is still lagging behind; knowledge based economy. An economy which relies the North Central part of Botswana as you mentioned in skills and operating things digitally. Minister, should different areas. Honourable Minister tourism at also note that as well as ensure that it matches her Makgadikgadi is not highly promoted like the one at policy. A digital economy which we are heading towards Okavango but the tourism is good and can unburden should be encouraged in tourism. Let me highlight that, Okavango which is a very sensitive environment this is the intention of Government to promote tourism given the burden it is carrying. Makgadikgadi has a

Hansard No 201 3 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

lot of history; it is a habitat for wild animals we see The other point I raised which you have to pay close in the Coat of Arms of Botswana, that is where we attention to is the maladministration of funds of these find rare birds like flamingo. Areas like Nata, Sowa, trusts, ensure that the funds are safe and are properly Makgadikgadi and Mosu which are at Honourable administered. I am moving towards my conclusion Lelatisitswe’s constituency should be promoted and Honourable Minister, in terms of drought, you have marketed. The world is not aware that these pans carry already introduced climate change policy so you a lot of history. It is the only place in the world where arranged your policies in an amazing way because you if you are standing on the rocks you will be standing on came up with policies that are related and complement the lost continent …(silence)… So, this history should each other as you cannot have tourism without focusing be promoted, it should not only exist in educational on the effects of climate change. Climate change can put materials, they should understand …(inaudible)… it a stop to our tourism if we are not aware of it. exists in Botswana. At continents …(inaudible)… of South America, Australia, Antarctica divide Africa. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. These rocks should be marketed Honourable Minister. MR TSOGWANE: Just a second, time is already up. I invite all those who have never been there to visit Thank you. Lekhubu Island next to Mmatshumu in their country. Millions of tourists during the millennium celebrations MR MOATLHODI: Clarification. Thank you Mr flooded the area to view changes, so these are some of Speaker. Thank you Honourable Vice President. With the things we have to market. regards to the great words you are saying Honourable Makgadikgadi are linked with Orapa and Letlhakane Member, will the Village Development Committee mines. One cannot view those rocks unless you are at (VDC) not receive any funds as nations come here to Lekhubu Island and this is something which if it existed see the beauty of this country? Thank you sir. at other countries, it could be fully marketed. If a person MR TSOGWANE: Thank you P.P.P. It is just that VDC from South America wants to see a place where South and the trust are the same thing. Trust belongs to the America and Africa divided, then he should stand on top village and the village belongs to VDC. So like you are of these rocks to view extraordinary things. It has unique saying, they are the same thing. If all the three villages markings which are from the underground and do not end up generating funds they should see how in the end, exist anywhere else. So this is the kind of tourist sites their VDCs will be assisted with their minor requests. we could be highly marketing and also show the origin That is a procedure that has to be looked into. Like I of human kind and environment. This area is the origin said in regards to funds generated from trusts, if VDCs of Stone Age Man so Minister these are extraordinary are not given any funds like you are saying Honourable histories we have to fully market. Moatlhodi, that money is going to end up being wasted Moving on Minister, Boteti constituency is very rich in because there is nowhere it can be used. If you do not tourism. We are very thankful Minister for emphasising use funds through VDC, how are you going to develop on promotion of local or domestic tourism. We recently because that means that the funds are going to end up witnessed extraordinary things when Mokoboxane in the trust? Trusts cannot do anything without VDCs through their trust called Mokopi launched a tourism site and funds should go to the public to benefit them, which attracted a lot of people, it means Batswana are who are owners of the trust through VDC. Thank you interested in tourism. Some areas are more accessible Honourable Moatlhodi. to them. If you are in Rakops, Central Kalahari Game Reserve (CKGR) is only 28 kilometres (km) but they The other thing that I want you to respond quickly are unable to travel there because the road does not to Minister, is to look into the issue of conventions. allow one to drive on using a small car. Residents of Countries are benefitting from tourism. The United Orapa have no destination they can visit during holidays Nations Convention to combat Desertification and and weekends because the terrains of the areas I just Drought of 1994, did we benefit from them. The likes of mentioned are difficult. Recently when two lions were Ramsar Convention and the Convention on International introduced in a small park which was established by Trade in Endangered Species (CITES), did all these Mokopi Trust, we saw a lot of crowd who even donated things… a lot of money to that trust within a short period of time, a trust which was not doing well for many years. MR SPEAKER: Your Honour, your time is up.

4 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

MR TSOGWANE: …ensure that they are not am requesting Mr Speaker is that, we have to urge this hindrances to tourism. Thank you Mr Speaker. ministry to encourage our locals and villages to identify all the things that can be classified as tourism. It can MR SPEAKER: Thank you Your Honour. be things that can be viewed by people because those MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL things are available in every village in our country. AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC Secondly, many villages have different cultures which ADMINISTRATION (MR MORWAENG): Let me can attract other Batswana to learn about other cultures thank Mr Speaker for giving me this opportunity to that are there in their country. This can be able to address Batswana. Firstly, Honourable Member, let me generate better income for us, using tourism. I wish that point out that, I am thankful for this policy that is before we can really look into what you called, ‘the role of the us and I also welcome it. I support it with everything I communities,’ and we should be focused on ensuring have. I will be brief Mr Speaker. Let me indicate that that we achieve that. most of the time when we address tourism, we make it seem like it is only foreigners who come to our country. Let me move on to Molepolole before I conclude and It is true that foreign tourists bring us money. say; Molepolole as you know Mr Speaker, is one of the villages in Botswana which has different cultures, One thing that I wish we can encourage a lot Mr Speaker especially Molepolole South, which have made this is that, we have to promote our local. Our country is big country what it is today. Therefore, it is necessary in such a way that, it is necessary for us to encourage for the Ministry of Tourism to take those things into each other at our villages as Batswana, so that we can consideration. For example, there are hills called travel all over our country to know it instead of people Dithejwane 15 kilometres west of Molepolole, and in from outside knowing our country more than us. In that 1885, there was a Second Boer War, where the Boers way Minister, let us come up with a plan to promote this wanted to confiscate the land from Bakwena who were issue from primary school up to secondary school, and with Bangwaketse. The Boers wanted to take land in different ministries. Even the local companies should belonging to Bangwaketse, Bakwena, and other areas be encouraged to be involved in tourism, so that their but they were defeated by Bakwena and Bangwaketse employees can take part in promoting it. That is one in1885 at the Dithejwane hills or stream, at that time we factor that can assist us: that will also mean that when were ruled by Kgosi Sechele. We still have those hills we promote tourism locally, locals can also be involved and stream where Bakwena defeated the Boers. That is because the different prices of things like hotels, flights part of the events that shaped the history of Botswana. and so on which are usually high, are the ones that may Minister, with those points I wanted to highlight what prevent the locals from being involved in local tourism. we have at Molepolole that can benefit this country. Someone has even suggested that we should have a price Support Molepolole so that these places…not just in for locals and a price for foreigners. The main issue is Molepolole but in other places of this country. I was just that, we should come up with realistic ideas Mr Speaker, citing Dithejwane since I am aware of its history. to ensure that we promote local tourism. We have many places locally that have everything one may wish to see. In 1911 when Kgosi Sebele of Bakwena died, a rock As Batswana we should not end up not knowing our fell. Where that rock fell is still there right now. This country. rock fell at a time when we saw Halley’s Comet in 1911. When this rock fell, news broke that Kgosi Sebele had That will also motivate local businesspeople who are died. This history is available and I am requesting the in the tourism sector. Yes, the Government is trying its Ministry of Tourism to recognise that, Molepolole has best but what I am saying is that, we need to encourage history that is connected to Gaborone and villages this them more because a tourism-led economy is reliable side and if you support us, as Bakwena and Batswana, and is not similar to a resource based economy. It is we will stand to benefit because these events took place sustainable and we can continue with it going forward. in our village.

The other point that I want to address in conclusion is The last point is that, just near where the rock fell, that, there is no village in Botswana that does not have there is Ga-Kobokwe cave. There is a myth about Ga- a tourist attraction site, in short, many villages in our Kobokwe cave that, in the olden days, witches were country have something special about them. What I thrown in there. This means that some here…not here,

Hansard No 201 5 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

they would have been thrown in there. Like I am saying, is transforming the landscape of Molepolole. They it is a myth, there is no truth in that. The issue is, this sent me to ask you that if you find time in your tight cave is there, it is very big…(interruptions!)… Minister, schedule, we should go there and see the leadership of Kgosi Kgari, Mr Sebele and Kgosi Garebakwena the village for them to express their gratitude and view have long made a request to you about this cave… that historically rich area. (interruptions!)… long time back…(interruptions!)… Molepolole South Constituency.... We have areas such as Staken Hill and Town’s residence in Molepolole. Town’s residence was named after a MR MOATLHODI: Clarification Mr Speaker. District Commissioner who was called Mr Town in 1932. Honourable Minister of Presidential Affairs Governance During a severe drought season in Molepolole South, and Public Administration and also Honourable Member there was sorghum production that was named after Mr of Molepolole South, are you saying there are witches in Town. As I speak, we still have that red sorghum. We Parliament, mention their names? have a rich history in Molepolole and other different Kweneng villages and I am humbly asking you as the HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... Minister of Tourism to visit Molepolole and see what MR MORWAENG: No, I was talking with my fellows you have done and what you can do for us. As Bakwena, about...(interruptions!)… ours as friends. we are working together with Government because the way this village is so close to the city, it has everything In short, nothing has ever happened. However, there that every Motswana and foreigners can desire to see. In are stories that the cave was used for that. Therefore... Molepolole, we have different traditional dances which (interruptions!)…this cave is there and it is important are unique to Molepolole only. We have borankana and should be considered how it can benefit the country. traditional dance which is mostly done by Bakwena...

Let me conclude by stating that, between 1932 and 1935, MR SPEAKER: The time is up Honourable Minister! history tells us that Kgosi Kelebantse Sebele was taken to Gantsi and the community moved from Ntsweng where MR MORWAENG: Thank you. Kgosi Sebele was staying and Borakalalo. Therefore, a 62 hectares museum to the tune of P50 million will MR SPEAKER: Next speaker, thank you Honourable be established at Ntsweng, the former Queen Mother’s Minister, is Honourable Kgoberego Nkawana and will residence. Minister, that is why we are grateful that the be followed by Honourable Motaosane and Honourable Government saw it fit to establish a museum with rich Healy. Bakwena history in that 62 hectares land. It will be the MR NKAWANA (SELEBI PHIKWE EAST): Thank biggest museum in Botswana and we have been waiting you Mr Speaker and let me also thank Honourable for you for the past ten months and we were told that Kereng who presented this Motion before us. Let me you are busy. You are humbly invited by Kgosi Kgari, indicate that I support her in bringing these developments Kgosi Garebakwena and Mr Sebele to go and see that that she is going to use this Policy to diversify Botswana area together because Government has done an amazing tourism. Let me start by saying, Honourable Minister, job for us. though you are saying you are going to improve, it is HONOURABLE MEMBER: Correction Honourable going to take time and it requires people to start getting Morwaeng. busy. We should start diversifying the tourism sector so that it does not focus on wildlife only. For many MR SPEAKER: Who is asking for a point of correction? years we know that our tourism has been wildlife-based Honourable Healy go ahead. and it will take ages to move it away from the wildlife product. On the issue of wildlife, I would like to point ...Silence... out that we know that we have many challenges. We MR MORWAENG: Let me proceed because time is have made some games. We know that this product not on my side. Honourable Minister, I am extending has been overly developed and it is actually already my gratitude for what you have done for us as Bakwena. overburdened, more especially in Okavango and we all Thank you Honourable Minister, as I speak, construction know that the Okavango Delta is a fragile product. On for this museum commenced in December. We this issue Honourable Minister, we are looking at two commend the Government for this huge project which types of tourism; photographic tourism which is non-

6 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

consumptive, you just take a picture. You use a camera new ideas. As Honourable LOO alluded that, we always to shoot as opposed to a gun to shoot animals. I will say that we want to eliminate white people, no that start with consumptive tourism because you proposed should not be our intention. We learnt from them and that there should be hunting of different animals. My we know that they are the ones who know where to find suggestion on this issue is that yes, when we hunt like our target clientele. We have to know that when we talk that and since it yields results quickly, you should pay about tourism, we are also talking about things which attention to animals which have genes which are not rare are related to culture in terms of the clientele that comes in our populations; they are the ones which you should in there. They have an expectation of what they will reduce by selling them. We know that with consumptive find, whether they will be assisted by a white or a black tourism, when we cite elephants as an example, most person upon their arrival. Some of them have their own of the times they look for the elephant with the largest preference. We have to balance all these things so that tusk and they are the ones which are mostly purchased. we have those who will be assisted by black people and My suggestion is that, we should reduce that because others who will be assisted by a white person. Some of the more we kill the big tuskers, the more we remove these white people are Batswana. When we do this, we the stronger genes from the populations. We should start should know that since there are some who are labelled to sell products of elephants which do not have tusk or as the indigenous Batswana, we should try and include those with the small tusks. In that way, we are removing them in this policy so that they can also play a role in weaker genes that are unwanted from the population, and the tourism industry. we are left with genes which will make our population healthier. I do not want you to think that I am suggesting This drives me to address the issue of cultural tourism that those ones do not have the right to exist. We cannot away from the wildlife product. It took a while for us to eliminate them but I am saying let us try to reduce those look at our provinces or many of our different products genes from our populations in all animals. The prices according to different cultures across the whole of will differ. We know that bigger trophy horns and tusks Botswana. When you look at Selebi Phikwe, we have are the ones which are in high demand and they will get many products, we have mopane worm. It is well known higher prices. For a start, let us start to balance there. in other countries. Health practitioners are also saying that mopane worm contains more nutrients than other Mr Speaker, when I move on to non-consumptive food substances which are well known across countries. tourism which is all about people who come here to When you have a patient who has nutrient deficiency, see, to take photos and draw our wildlife, there are when his or body is failing because he or she does many concerns which the Honourable Members have not have nutrients, mopane worm can help him or her already talked about. I heard Honourable Leader of the better. That is what the experts are saying. It is one of Opposition (LOO) talking about concessions, saying the products which we people of Selibe Phikwe can sell that these people are not given leases. We cannot expect to international tourists and local tourists who do not people to be squatting forever. People should be given know how to cook it. We grew up knowing that there are leases so that they operate knowing how long their leases many ways of cooking mopane worm. There are some are going to take. There is no one who can develop an who grill it and others who cook it with salt and so forth. area they are squatting in without knowing if one might Come closer to our side Minister and see what we can knock on their door the following day to tell them that offer you. We have different products. When you get they are not going to extend their lease. There are some to some countries, there are some people who wish to concessions areas where people were long given leases go around tasting different dishes from different places and they have long expired. They are in the dark and in their localities. We also have different dishes which they do not know what to do. Honourable Minister, you Batswana do not know and they can come and see them should also look into it, you should hurry to address this in our area. issue so that it does not take long. While that is the case Honourable Minister, we should do that deliberately Honourable Minister, when you talk about cultural with the intention that when these leases expire, it is tourism, you should not only concentrate on saying that not like we are going to chase people away. You should you have historical sites which you can sell, you should try to assess their borders and also see if you cannot look at different cultures as some have just said that increase them so that we try and create opportunities for there is dance, food, attire and other different things. the youth of this country who are still robust and full of There is an English saying that, ‘tourism is everywhere

Hansard No 201 7 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

and it is everything.’ If you come across anything that MR NKAWANA: Thank you Honourable. How much is striking in your assessments, perhaps it might not time am I left with Mr Speaker? fascinate someone, but there are some people who might wish to see it when they go to Bobirwa, Phikwe HONOURABLE MEMBER: Just debate quickly and or SPEDU Region. when…(Inaudible)…

When I talk about language, some people are saying our MR NKAWANA: Mr Speaker, let me make a proposal language is not proper Setswana, but it is not Setswana, to you Minister that as you keep improving tourism it is Sebirwa language. That can be an attraction for products, in Phikwe we need educational parks. We people to go and learn our language and listen to our are far from these areas, for our students to see wild songs and dance in this language. animals, they have to go as far as Kasane, Maun and Makgadikgadi. We do that because those nearby such Honourable Minister, let me also talk about historical as Tuli Block are private facilities and they do not sites. There are many Historical sites which are cooperate with us when we ask to use their facilities for scattered across the whole of Botswana. Catalogue educational purposes. them so that as you pointed out in your policy that you Honourable Minister, we have more beautiful areas than will be very aggressive in marketing our products, they others. When you are in Phikwe and lift up your eyes, would be listed there for international tourists who visit you will see a lot of rock outcrops and that scenery is those places to go with them to their home countries to not available anywhere else in Botswana. We are the show the world, you should not leave us out. Do not only ones with such rocks, scattered all over the place. give these catalogues to international tourists before you Minister, we ask you to allow us to build educational teach Batswana about areas they can visit in Botswana parks in those areas so that we can teach our children all for recreation and leisure. about natural resources conservation including wildlife. We have a mine in Selibe Phikwe. Although it does not We will not have to use a lot of money to go view wild qualify for a historical site, it is one of the first mines in animals at Kasane since they will be available locally. Botswana. We would be happy if we can also market it Like we have already said Honourable Minister, the as a product which shows how Botswana has developed main issue is that we should start involving young in the mining sector. people right now. Let us acknowledge the importance This mine Honourable Minister, I always talk about this of the youth and that they still have sharper brains and and I believe that I am saying this for the third time; strong knees to run around. Let us not lose time where other countries like South Africa have turned their old when we have passed away, our children will not know mines into tourist attraction sites: we also want that. where to start. Honourable Minister, I do not see you People of Selibe Phikwe request that you should give us indicating what you have for the youth in particular, some sites at the mine which would no longer be up for which is a quick win which tomorrow you can give an sale so that they can be developed into tourism sites. We instruction for the youth to do a project in Phikwe. I can build hotels and have restaurants in the mine where wish that when you go into detail as to how you are we eat, come out and even show foreigners around. going to execute your policy, we should see the youth Former mine employees can be used as guides and take featured. people into the mine. They will show foreigners around the mine who pay and thus creating employment. You spoke about land; I want to talk about the land bank, we talk more about it… MR RAMOGAPI: On a point of elucidation. You are debating very well. I loved the point you raised on MR SPEAKER: Your time is up. historical sites. The important thing is, Botswana should MR MOTAOSANE (THAMAGA-KUMAKWANE): package them. For example, in Palapye, most people are Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, let me thank you not aware that the airstrip in Palapye is the first one in and greet Honourable Members and Vice President Botswana. It could be developed and we will be able to (VP). generate income through it. The Minister is not aware that the Palapye airstrip is the first one in Botswana. You Honourable Minister, I commend you for coming up are debating very well and continue in that same line. with the policy at the time you have promised that you

8 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

will come up with a policy that will improve tourism in it is doing quite well in this industry in terms of giving Botswana. I believe by the time Parliament goes into Batswana certain managerial positions and doing recess, we would have finished with this policy. certain things which lead tourism or the hotel industry. When you look at private businesses, they create jobs Firstly, Honourable Minister whom I like so much for their own people and other neighbouring blacks; because you are doing a very good job, if time was on you will find them in managerial positions. I believe our side, in five years’ time your ministry would have at the moment, our young people have been trained a improved tremendously. lot in this tourism and hospitality industry. The only I want to request that as we will be passing this policy as problem is, they are mistreated. I wish this policy could Parliament, since it appears we all support it including have included a clause which is very clear that there is a the likes of Honourable Nkawana, it should not be kept percentage reserved for workers. A situation where they in drawers. Let us go out and implement, let us walk the are shareholders in this industry where they own maybe talk. Policies, laws or anything that Government comes 30 per cent of this business. This can motivate them to up with as good initiatives, end up not implemented and work hard and when they retire, they are not going to it appears as if it was all talk. That is why those across be very poor. If we do not include it in this policy, I the aisle normally say, “though we agree, we know do not think our employment regulations are going to that it is not going to be implemented.” That is what favour them; they are severely exploited. You will recall I heard Honourable Leader of the Opposition (LOO) that we had another one which was trending on social saying. So, I want to say if there is satan in front of us, media, a situation where pink people were abusing a let us disappoint him and make sure that this policy is worker; they were kicking him. These things should not implemented the way it is. be condoned. They are doing them because … MR HIKUAMA: Elucidation. Thank you Honourable The earlier the implementation, the quicker we will Member. What you are saying is real and those who do manage to locate its shortfalls and we may need panel not know might think you are lying. If you consider beating. If we keep talking about it without implementing study programme offered under this sector, you will it, it will be pointless. find a Motswana performing tasks assigned to someone Honourable Minister, Honourable Members have said who was appointed, a useless person who will be doing a lot. In commending you, let me quote from Page 8 nothing there. For example; they will be in Maun, where you talk about limitation in human resource managing concession camp without supervision while capacity skills and services. I am surprised though to at the bush. It will seem like they assist a person who a minimum degree I agree but I have my suspicions. I is not responsible for that job. I am saying this because have never been anywhere, say, facilities such as hotels what you are saying is real and the Minister should in Kasane, where I have never seen Batswana working seriously address it. Thank you. very hard, helping passionately and being patient for you MR MOTAOSANE: Thank you Honourable. That is to understand what is happening in the environment that what I am saying. I am not saying what I heard from you are in. Every time where Batswana are supposed to others, I witnessed it. The truth is, Batswana are the benefit, you find that it seems we undermine their ability ones sustaining this sector but when it comes to giving in their workplace. them managerial positions and their remunerations, it is a problem where you will find that they are oppressed If you are holding someone back, not allowing them by this sector. For example, this is happening in areas to express themselves to the fullest capacity of their like Tuli Block, that is why they are crying because they ideas and so on, it will always appear as if Batswana are cannot even access Limpopo. So within this policy, we incompetent. All these private businesses especially in should have a law which clearly state and compels these the hospitality industry, since I have realised that that is people to have shareholding. where Batswana are under immense oppression, you will find that they have been reduced to casual labourers, not I will move on to talk about heritage sites like other given management positions in these hotels. Minister, members. At the end of this session Minister, create time look into this because the reason why I am saying I do to visit Thamaga before the winter session which is my not agree is because, I know that there are Batswana constituency. I will show you very attractive and rich who are… Take for an example Cresta Hotels, I believe heritage sites. I heard Honourable Morwaeng outlining

Hansard No 201 9 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

the heritage sites found in Mokwena. Dithejwane Hill is Batswana who have farms around Jwaneng Mine to very rich in history of Bakgatla ba ga Mmanaana. So we keep wild animals there, it is going to be like we are should construct museums for these things, document disadvantaging Batswana when it comes to the tourism them so that our children can understand their origins; sector. I will appreciate if you can do that Minister. if it says you are a Mokgatla wa ga Mmanaana, what is your contribution in the history of Botswana. So I wish to conclude by highlighting that it is going to Minister, I urge you to visit Thamaga after this session be difficult to address these issues if relevant ministries so that we can assemble our youth and show them these like the Ministry of Youth and Ministry of Land do not sites, where they can do these things through reasonable collaborate. Usually when people wish to do something, support from Government. It takes me back to the issue they will be told that we do not have land but it is that we should have graduate skill such that learners can there. So closely collaborate with the minister of Land, use it to start businesses when they graduate. If we do not Honourable Mzwinila is one of the ministers I respect facilitate them with the capital to start businesses, they so much because he listens. I believe if you can consult cannot get it anywhere. That is where we should chip in them on the basis that we are looking for land to do to support them. Heritage sites we are talking about, if tourism activities, then it is not going to be difficult you can go to Kolobeng Livingstone, you know that it to acquire land. You tried to improve Environmental is rich in history. There is an area in Kumakwane where Impact Assessment (EIA), so I believe it is in place we always have abundant water, youth have already Minister and I thank you for that. So let us collaborate formed clusters since they are interested in developing with relevant ministries so that if a person has interest a certain area to turn it to a tourism site. We will show and a business idea, they can be assisted without it to you if you can visit so that your ministry can assist difficulty. us in terms of how to tackle it. Perhaps you can assess Finally, I request us to consult Ministry of Labour how you can assist us to develop it. It is one of the things so that those working in hotels can be visited on a which has the potential to develop and create many jobs regular basis because their employers oppress them as for the youth. Batswana. Some of them usually spend the whole year without going on leave, they are oppressed and there is Moreover, we also have wild animals. Some of them nothing which shows that indeed they are working. So damage our property and they have not been included the Ministry of Labour should effect labour laws and in the category of animals which we are compensated visit these areas with you. We were in Francistown last for when they damage people’s property. I do not know time, Adansonia’s employees were complaining that your decision on these animals but I urge you to ensure even Government subsidy they have not received it. that, if they have damaged our property, then it should These things are bad Minister, so do something about be clear that there will be compensation. Like other them. Because of time, I thank you for coming up with Honourable Members also said, we should lock them this policy; let us implement it rather than keeping it in up. I thank you because tourism is no longer going to be the shelves. Thank you Mr Speaker. biased towards one side in our country. We have plenty of wild animals in areas like Mmamoagi and Tshegwe. MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY (GABORONE So let us approve this policy so that we can be assisted CENTRAL): Thank you Mr Speaker. Good afternoon to keep them in our fields as a way of promoting tourism Honourable Members. Honourable Minister, I want to there. People in the surrounding areas will be able to see thank you for tabling this policy before us, the Revised these wild animals because they usually appear when Tourism Policy as you have alluded. The last time we are in our houses and therefore fail to see them. If this policy was looked at, was as far back as 1990, we know that so and so is keeping these kinds of wild that is a good 32 years ago. So, without a shadow of a animals, we can spend an afternoon there as well as eat doubt, it is way overdue. Honourable Minister, I think Setswana food. The law should also allow them to kill it is undoubtable, anybody anywhere in the world, in a wild animal so that we can entertain ourselves there, fact, Botswana is committed to preserving its natural eating traditional food and wild animals. We know that resources, its flora and fauna. If you take the fact that eland meat is not easy to find. 17 per cent of the land mass of this country falls under national parks and a further 33 per cent falls under I am aware that there are different kinds of wild animals Wildlife Management Areas (WMAs). 40 per cent of our found around Jwaneng Mine. So if we do not encourage country is dedicated to conservation of wildlife, flora

10 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

and fauna. And that does not even include the parks. nothing. They come here and earn lots of money. I mean Honourable Motaosane has been talking about Jwaneng doing nothing because that job is worthless. I mean Mine Park, Orapa Mine Park, the park in Francistown, nothing because they are not doing anything that our Maun Educational Park, Gaborone Game Reserve and people cannot do. So, we need to get serious about this some farms that are also set aside for wildlife farming. one. Probably 50 per cent of this country is set aside for wildlife and conservation. I do not think there is any Minister, 2.5 (ii); you talked about an adequate product country, the world over, that has set that much of their range. When you look at television channels like land to preserving natural resources. National Geographic, there is so much that our country offers. We have programmes. We have a well-known On 2.2 Honourable Minister, you talked about the adventure tourist by the name of Bear Grylls. He goes importance of tourism in the economy. I think I stand to the world over. He looks for celebrities and try to do be corrected, but I believe tourism is the second biggest survival challenges, that kind of stuff. We want to see contributor to our national purse. It is undoubtable how our country at the forefront, but imagine the diversity important tourism is to this country. It is worrying when from Southern Kgalagadi, Central Kalahari Game you have something so important, whose ownership, the Reserve (CKGR) Tuli, Chobe and Okavango. Can you citizens have so little of, but anyways we will get to that imagine how many different survival tourisms you one until later. can have in Botswana alone? You can see the whole seasons by just going through the different landscape I want to talk about 2.5 (i), where you mentioned the that Botswana has to offer. Honourable Minister, when constraints that are in the tourism sector. Honourable are we going to host African Cup of Nations (AFCON)? Minister, you speak about the lack of growth in directed Are you talking to the Ministry of Youth Empowerment, positioning in that regard, we mostly focus on the wildlife Sport and Culture Development? Do we have a target? and the upmarket segment of this tourism cake. You Are there timelines? Are you guys working together? allude to the fact that there is not much expansion within that area. We need to look at other avenues. Minister, I Dakar Rally; we have been doing Mantshwabisi. While want you to start with what you already have when you I was growing up in Gaborone in the early days of award your new sites, or when you renew your existing Mantshwabisi, on a Friday morning sometimes in May concessions. I think all the Honourable Members who when walking to school, you will see sand masters all have been speaking here, the one thing I picked is about over. We have gone past Mantshwabisi, we should be economic empowerment to the citizens. We speak in talking about Dakar Rally now. It has been 20 something different languages but we bow down to the same thing. years hosting Toyota 1000. We should now be talking When you have an opportunity, whether it is in the about Dakar Rally. When are we talking such ambitious awarding of new concessions or renewing licences, I things? think we really need to get serious as Government about empowering Batswana. There is nothing magical that Minister, 2.5 (vi); I think I am going to conclude here anybody in the delta is doing. There is nothing magical because these were the ...(interruptions)… You talk anybody in the cities here is doing. There is nothing about the limited citizen participation and ownership magical anybody is doing at Makgadikgadi. As a matter within the industry. Honourable Minister, there are a lot of fact, when you go to places like Makgadikgadi at of things surrounding this issue, back and forth. Here is Jack’s Camp, you will find so many foreigners. the crux of the matter, we have been talking about the Energy Policy and we are going to be talking about the I have been told by one of the Managers that, the former Minerals Policy. Every single legislator who is going United States (US) President George Bush Senior to debate, is going to talk about the stake of Batswana when he was here, he insisted that, “I want the people in the industry. I think we should be looking at the of this country who can tell me their history.” If you Ministry of Tourism and ask them the hard questions, bring a white Zimbabwean or a white South African to and the Ministry of Finance and ask them when are we be a guide, really, I mean, what are they telling these getting the Citizen Economic Empowerment (CEE) Bill guests? They can just read all those things. So, we want in this Parliament? When is the Public Procurement and somebody who knows. We must really get serious about Asset Disposal Board (PPADB) Act coming because this thing which Honourable Motaosane and a couple those two will take away 90 per cent of the things they of Members have been alluding to; of people doing complain about that Batswana are not participating

Hansard No 201 11 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

in the economy? If we had CEE law as we speak, the HONOURABLE MEMBER: Where is the problem, Energy Policy we discussed, the policy that is coming what is the problem; open quote? up, all these things would have an umbrella within which they operate. We already know what are the limits. MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Mr Speaker, I do not There are already limits that we want this much citizen know what they are saying is really wrong with English participation, this much economic impact and this much Mediums, and I do not want to get involved in those social impact. But we are now drawing back, we are issues. I had said, ‘sitting at the table Mr Speaker, does crafting these policies. If CEE is now implemented, it not make you a diner’, ‘you must be eating some of what is going to say something different which will drive us is on that plate’. That is what makes you a diner. The to amend these policies. I think the crux of the matter in fact that businesses of Batswana are so many, probably this whole thing, all these suggestions we raised is CEE. the majority Mr Speaker… Once we achieve all these other things that we spend MR SPEAKER: Honourable Healy? the whole day going back and forth …(inaudible)… will not matter. I was shocked during the sitting of MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Yes, Sir. this Parliament, the Business Lobby Group; Business MR SPEAKER: Unfortunately, I have to stop you here Botswana, where they were trying to refute the statement because there was an initial agreement that we are going which says the economy of Botswana is dominated by to allow only 34 Members of the House to speak on foreigners and Batswana of foreign extraction. That is a this particular subject matter, and we have reached our fact and that is why we sit here all day, every Member of target. Now, it is time for me to call upon the Minister Parliament (MP) is talking about citizen empowerment. of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation and I do not know where they live but it only makes sense. Tourism to respond to the debate. Honourable Minister. I mean, we speak what our constituents are telling us. Obviously they are the very people we are complaining MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Wow! Mr Speaker, about. It makes sense why they would make such a my time was wasted by these people. statement. I want to quote an American revolutionary if you allow Mr Speaker. Mohammed Al-Harji Malik El MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, can you go Shabazz said, “sitting at the table ... ahead and respond.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Say open quote. MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, NATURAL RESOURCES CONSERVATION AND TOURISM MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Pardon? (MS KERENG): Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: It says, “siting at the I thank you for this time that I can respond to the so- table does not... long debate and so many contributions that Honourable Members have made. Those of you who did not have HONOURABLE MEMBER: Open quote. the chance to speak will forgive us, maybe going forward, you will get your chance to contribute your MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Just wait, you cry- bit. Mr Speaker, I want to respond to the many issues baby. It says, “sitting at the table .... that Honourable Members have addressed. Let me start HONOURABLE MEMBER: Be more open to by saying, when I assessed them, I found that most of learning, open quote. them emphasized the things that will come after the approval of this policy. The things that will follow MR MANGWEGAPE- HEALY: Yes, Never! You are after we approve this policy are centered on what we not going to dictate to me, the Speaker is the dictator should look into and they guided us that we should look here; wait… (interruptions)…Can I get your protection into those things. Most of the issues that Honourable Sir? There is a lot of cacophony and melodrama here. I Members addressed, are those that emphasize the wonder what is wrong with them. problems that this policy is going to put to an end to; the situation analysis and what lacked in the policy of 1990. HONOURABLE MEMBER: He does not seem like Honourable Members talked about many challenges, someone from English Medium. and they were concerned about the dire situation that MR MANGWEGAPE- HEALY: If you do not talk to tourism is in, and it is evident that something should them when they are doing this, and then… be done so that the situation can improve. Honourable

12 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

Members, this policy is the opportunity for us to be refrain from saying Honourable Kereng, there is a hill thankful that a solution has come, because now there or dam that you should come and see, there is a snake is a path we can take which will enable us to take this or a place where witchcraft occurred somewhere. You country to where we want it to be regarding tourism. are leaders, you work with Councils, you are from those So I am concerned that a lot of contributions were on areas and they are your constituencies. You have to call the situation, challenges, shortages and concerns. Many me saying, “our programme can bring developments did not appreciate this policy as a solution to these to my constituency, I have identified this, I am in talks challenges and concerns such that, when we get to with the Council, this is in our plan and this is where implementation, it will be positioned to address them. the ministry can be involved”. I cannot be able to do the Honourable Members maybe since these are challenges ground work that Honourable Members are supposed to we are concerned about and you also like tourism a focus on like others have been indicating. lot, let me just accept that you did the right thing by Let me specify, if you allow me Mr Speaker, that addressing, emphasizing and talking earnestly about programmes that have already managed to thrive, like those challenges. So let us move forward, when we dams, which Honourable Molebatsi was talking about in approve this policy, you should have realised that it is a Mmadinare that they have just been there and I should policy that can take us out of the current situation we are come and see them. Is he not the one who has to tell me facing in the tourism industry. that he has identified what is happening, what is lagging When I examined things Mr Speaker, I found that our behind and where I should assist? He is not similar to discussions revealed that the current policy is really Honourable Motsamai who says, things are just there outdated, and the new one will really assist us to be and no one is doing anything about them, whereas he where we want to be; to grow the tourism industry, to has never gone there. No, I am not going to operate like create jobs and to try and improve lives of the local that. Let me indicate that this policy calls out to all of people so that we can have widespread tourism that us. I am here and those who have called me before, have explores other avenues of tourism. already done the ground work, they must do. I encourage that we do that with Councils Honourable Members. Let Let me point out that, when it comes to implementation me point out that, I encourage Honourable Members to of this policy, it is important that we look at the things do their part. When Honourable Leader of the House we have to improve when it comes to administration, identified the Mokopi project at Mokoboxane that was workforce and all the services that are affected; struggling, it was taking long and everything was just Structural Reforms and Institutional Changes that a mess, he called me to see what may be delaying that have to be in place. Honourable Members, you also project. We went there to see what the problem might emphasized the collaboration of ministries, starting with be, we rectified things, in fact that project is up and this policy as it indicates that strategy in ministries is running. So when I want to do other things, you cannot important, and this policy cannot give us results if there say I should go and identify those things when you have is no strategy. That is what you said and that is true. I never been anywhere. Anyway I can be there, when we want to emphasise that, Section 4.2 of this policy puts knock off from here you can go and prepare for me, and emphasis on what you have been saying; starting with I will join you. Honourable Matsheka when he said we should ensure Local Government Authorities are saying that they will that local authorities are engaged, and councils should collaborate with the Local Economic Empowerment be engaged in implementing this policy at local level Drive to create jobs in rural areas. Let us adopt these as they are the ones who are in a better position to link programmes instead of saying tourism will add onto to all the services of businesses, private organisations like them. We do not want to get involved and drive isolated Non-Governmental Organisation (NGOs), Government projects, we want to drive the integrated projects, which and so on. Let me indicate that yes, we will ensure that fit together perfectly. In that way, I think that even the services are included in the development strategies local authorities will assist us to manage them. of Councils; the District Development Plans (DPPs), Village Development Plans (VDPs) that are available, Moreover, Honourable Members, Honourable Matsheka we will also look into them. All the ideas you have been said there are funds that have not been used for the telling me about what can be done in different places, Constituency Fund, but you will find that, you then Honourable Members, I have to tell you, you should request me to provide funds to assist people. Can you

Hansard No 201 13 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

not generate funds for the Constituency Fund so that we out that, we cannot talk about the virus when there a lot can get into tourism together? I am trying to indicate of other threats because a policy is a guiding framework that we should be united more than we already are. which is a strategic level document. We cannot afford to be changing it for changes that happen. You said implementation should look into issues of human resources, administration and workforce, and let Honourable Members, I would like to reiterate that our me say this policy indicates the quality of service; the debates talked a lot about product diversification, in framework that will improve the services. A policy like which you pointed out where it could expand to, what I am saying, is just a framework which indicates what could be done, comprising of what and where. That is we want to achieve, how we are going to do that, what the case because with this policy we want to be able to we have used and who we are going with. In the end if realise that tourism is not only focusing in one place we say we have made an achievement, what will we be or in the same services, as you have been explaining. looking at? So Honourable Members, you were talking I would like to point out and even buttress what the about… other speakers have already said, like when Honourable Saleshando yesterday mentioned that product MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, there is a identification comes from wildlife. Let us realise that request for clarification from Honourable Lelatisitswe. tourism is there and it could grow, and have the value equal to that of wildlife, which generates more income, MS KERENG: Granted, for a second. depending on the marketing strategy and our quality; as ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH AND well as our ability to reach the clientele which wants to WELLNESS (MR LELATISITSWE): Clarification. be in the bush, the desert and sand dunes having wild Thank you so much Honourable Minister. We are animals around. passing this policy during a season of Corona but when Let me buttress the fact that, like the policy is talking you read it, there is nothing it is saying about Corona, about marketing, branding and packaging, that will be as to how much it has affected you; anything along very important. As someone has just said, that is where those lines. When it is read by the future generation in we have to include the youth. We have young people, 20 years to come, will they notice which era this policy Batswana who are very creative in the film industry. I was made. I can only see something regarding HIV in it. will collaborate with Rakgare, I believe we are already MS KERENG: Yes sir, this policy will reveal the era in in talks that he should give us the youth who could assist which it was started. Since this policy was in Parliament us to go around and explore Botswana, and they would even before Corona, we checked it to see whether there have to check and see what could be found. was something we could change, where the policy Let me reiterate that, this diversification drive, I have was stating, where it is taking us during this season started it with a project called Explore Botswana, where of Corona. If you want to check whether a policy has when I knocked off on Fridays, I would go somewhere value, you check it by looking at whether it will create nearby. When we are on an official trip, I would ask sustainable projects, among other things; those we refer them to show me what I could see. We have been to as being resilient. So, when I presented this policy, combining these things. I can see that you have worked I said its intention was to put Botswana in a position and produced results, and some of the programmes we where she could generate income, create jobs, and even are already planning to implement them. This means improve lives. It should be a resilient factor, showing it has to grow and Batswana have to be involved. The that when there are challenges like Corona…maybe in policy says Batswana should be the ones to ensure that future there would be another pandemic, and then we they discover their country, and then they market and would have to come up with another policy saying it is package it, doing so with passion, and also benefiting for that time. So if in future something else comes up, in the process. are we going to come up with another policy? A policy must stand times and the shocks. So I believe what we In the issue of Local Participation Citizen Empowerment, shall be doing when we implement, that is when the five- I heard some Honourable Members like Honourable year implementation plan would show that we would be Hikuama if I recall very well; he talked about bringing doing it during the time of Corona. After Corona, the tourism back in the hands of Batswana. Who had taken policy must still be relevant. So I just wanted to point the tourism away? To where? When we talk about

14 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

diversification, we are not talking about taking away that people might not take that which belongs to us as anything from anybody. If we understand this policy, Batswana. I thank you Minister, I thank you Mr Speaker. which I am saying it helps us in terms of what is already existing, accepting it and appreciating it that, it has MS KERENG: Thank you madam, that is it. helped our economy for so many years; hence, we MR SPEAKER: Minister, Honourable Manake… should grow it. One might think we are saying some must shift so that others may come in. That is not how MS KERENG: Honourable Manake, come in so that I it is. Thank you Honourable Saleshando for clarifying may sum them up together. it yesterday. MR SPEAKER: Yes, Honourable Hikuama and When we talk about Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), Honourable Makwinja. we are saying those who are already well established, we should help them to grow especially those who are HONOURABLE MEMBER: Allow me to speak too. local so that they would be able to reach that level. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, please be MR SPEAKER: Honourable Serame for elucidation, careful not to eat on the time allocated to the Honourable then Honourable Manake as well. Minister so that she may conclude her response.

MS KERENG: Granted. MS KERENG: I do not have much time; can I get the two. MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MS SERAME): On a point of elucidation. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURAL Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you Honourable Kereng. DEVELOPMENT AND FOOD SECURITY (MS I just wanted to briefly add to what you were saying, MANAKE): Elucidation. Thank you Mr Speaker. I will not take long. Let me start by thanking you and Thank you Honourable Kereng. Honourable Minister, commending you for the job you have already done. let Botswana Tourism Organisation (BTO) consider I wanted to buttress, particularly the one on product some of the events or the agricultural shows that are diversification, that as the Honourable Members were there. It should partner with us because that is where saying, everywhere you go in Botswana, there is everything is happening. Even if it is not agricultural something you can do which can be tourism related. I shows, those that are in each and every district, it should wanted to reiterate this issue of involving Batswana, let promote them because that is where culture is and where us ensure that businesses, Small and Medium Enterprises the food that Honourable Nkawana was talking about (SMEs) which we involve, most of them should be is. There is a lot. When BTO talks about agro-tourism, tourism related. As Botswana under World Economic it should be the one that designs how it should be. It Forum, we are one of the first countries to agree to be should show Batswana so that they would be able to involved in the Africa Growth Platform programme, diversify the product, and take that experience to the through which we vowed to start small businesses and people through different activities such as fairs and supporting those which are already existing. So as we shows. Back in the days, Ghanzi District was known as are doing this policy and coming up with targets, it the Texas of Africa and people would like to come and means we should collaborate with you that side to see to see this show. The beautiful part about it also is that, it that a certain percentage of these SMEs, should be in by the time the Ghanzi Show happens, it is extremely the tourism sector. cold and it is an experience on its own. So BTO should come closer to those at agriculture and look at all these Let me also reiterate once again Honourable that, as the different fairs and the like, and package them into Ministry of Trade and Investment and the Ministry of tourism events which attract people; the Lobatse Meat Labour, we will be there as we start the implementation Festival and others. I thank you Honourable Minister. because it is also important as you impress upon the issues of marketing, that we should work together. We MS KERENG: I thank you Honourable Members. should have a comprehensive and consolidated product, Honourable Serame and Honourable Manake you are on and we should not leave any issues behind as we are track. Honourable Serame, yes, we will be together to going to the market, selling these things, we should try and build the youth, entrepreneurs, different business ensure that our intellectual property is protected so people, so that they…

Hansard No 201 15 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

MR SPEAKER: Minister, there are two other requests. The other thing is that, we are currently keeping an eye on our funding mechanisms, or the financial aids; MS KERENG: No, I will not accept them. Let me the National Environmental Fund, Tourism Industry finish, then you will check for me how much time I am Development Fund, Training Fund, Conservation Trust remaining with because they will use it up. Fund. They are in the current plan to show that we are When we say we want to engage the youth and Batswana, going to develop them so that it would no longer be they need to be built, be assisted and empowered so difficult for people to access these services. When we that they would be in a position where they would be talk about placing Batswana at the highest position in competitive, and they would be able to compete with the tourism industry, talking about issues which were those whom we have been saying, we want them to raised by Honourable Tsogwane regarding Convention be involved in tourism, knowing that they are already on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) far ahead, also internationally competitive in this area and others, we believe that one important thing is to do madam. Let us do that, I do not want us to take long; as documentation of success stories, and I have already soon as we leave Parliament with this policy, we have requested that it should be included in the plans and it to start with the implementation framework, it should has been included, so that when we talk about hunting bring us together and we should take it from there. in Botswana we would also talk about how it has improved people’s lives and the positive impacts it has. Honourable Manake was talking about the details of This will enable us to show the world that the hunting implementation of this. I accept that, and I would like to ban which they are advocating for is actually affecting point out that that is the diversification, it is broad. Each people’s lives negatively. Honourable Members, you one of you as Ministers, as leaders in various sectors talked about issues pertaining to climate change, energy, who are in this policy, I will call you by the time we do human- wildlife conflict when discussing this Policy but the implementation framework so that we can discuss there is a section for environmental protection, wildlife those things. in this Policy and it will show the link or connection between wildlife protection and tourism management. Honourable Manake, like you are saying, one important It is a balanced Policy which will touch other important thing is that, the Botswana Tourism Organisation Policies. I will now yield for Honourable Makwinja’s marketing should look into that. Honourable that is point of elucidation. basically our plan, our marketing should extend and address those issues, including heritage sites and cultural MR SPEAKER: There is Hikuama before Makwinja. activities, sporting tourism and religious tourism that we want to embark on. MS KERENG: I am choosing for myself.

Regarding local participation, we are saying that HONOURABLE MEMBER: And Healy. capacity is important as we have highlighted. We also ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION pointed out that, funding is important. We should assist (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Honourable Kereng women, people living with disabilities and the youth so and I would also like to add on to what you are saying. that they can participate in the tourism industry. I would As the Honourable Members have been talking about like to point out that, one way of assisting Batswana activities and historical sites which we have in Botswana to venture into the tourism industry is through the and that we should get to the root of it, it is important for Community Based Natural Resource Management us to look into the upstream policies and programmes to (CBNRM) programme which I always talk about. I come up with these brilliant policies, if we do not get to still emphasise that we are developing it so that it can the bottom of it to see why there is no …(inaudible)… assist us to build capability, as Honourable Leader of compel your promises to be implemented, we will the House alluded that I should assist trusts so that they still be doing these activities just like other economic can be up to standard especially on issues of leadership developments activities without progressing because conflicts, governance, lack of knowledge and skills, the streams of the previous laws have been blocked, management of funds and poor business management we cannot do anything even if we can try. Thank you. in general. This policy is going to assist us so that the CBNRM programme can go and fortify trusts so that MS KERENG: Thank you Honourable. Connection of local participation can take place in that regard. policies is important. While still on the issue of policies,

16 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 ADOPTION OF THE TOURISM POLICY Motion (Resumed Debate)

the Honourable Members highlighted that workers in restoring back to them. That is not what we are saying. the tourism industry are not…(inaudible)…treated well, It is now clear when you explain it. We are together and if they are not paid well and their working conditions we are saying, there are some who have been playing a are not favourable and all those issues. I would like to role in the tourism industry, let us add or include others highlight that we are going to manage or administer who did not have a role. connection of policies which I just talked about in such MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you a way that it will bear fruits. One of these programmes is Honourable Minister. Minister, you emphasised the the one at Ministry of Employment, Labour Productivity Community Based Natural Resource Management and Skills Development and I believe that when we programme issue. You should not forget people in cities talk about Decent Work Programme which Honourable Honourable Minister. This programme seems to usually Balopi often talks about, it is time for us to see how it can be skewed towards the hinterlands. So I would like to bring improvements. In case there are insufficiencies, say that people in the cities also want to participate we should see which policies can be addressed or how on Community Based Natural Resource Management they can be revised so that they can be up to date. I programme issues. would like to point out that management is regulated by regulations, licensing requirement, and Tourism Act MS KERENG: Thank you Honourable Member. It since it is there. We are going to look into these things, is not a programme which is meant for some people. and see if they can take us where we need to be. Perhaps when a large percentage of our tourism was from outside, it was also strong. You should familiarise Mr Speaker, can you please update me with time before yourself with it because even the trusts which are in the I yield for other clarifications. cities were not dispersed out there. It is like that, we MR SPEAKER: 4 minutes before lunch. would be able to work with them.

MS KERENG: Honourable Healy and Hikuama, you The last issue is about leakages, as it was said that there should all just cut a second. are leakages because of the current state of the tourism industry; outside bookings, the other one would be doing MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you transfers, bookings, travel agency here and there. This Honourable Minister. The issue that you are talking means that we end up not generating enough income. about… That is what that policy is saying as an objective, that we are going to deal with leakages the proper way to try and MR SPEAKER: Honourable Hikuama first. reduce them. You pointed out that, one of the strategies MR HIKUAMA: Okay, thank you Honourable is to provide booking services locally and so forth. Member. Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you Madam Honourable Members, this policy has answered you. It Minister. What I was saying is that a large percentage addressed everything that you need and it also motivates of our tourism industry is not in the hands of Batswana. you because I am going to call you to update you about We plead that you should restore the tourism industry to implementation, I will come with the framework so as Batswana and we are not saying that you should chase to see how it fits into the plans, and everyone should put away anyone, we are simply saying that you should take themselves in a position where they will do their part. one step at a time and support Batswana so that they can Let us go and do that. You are motivated, I heard that be able to play a role in the tourism industry. It seems you understand and welcome it, and you are all going like you heard it with a different attitude. The other to vote for it. thing that Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) pointed Mr Speaker, I would like to conclude by saying, with out during campaigns was that, they are going to bring those words and with that much delight, I request that tourism industry into the hands of Batswana. That is this Honourable House resolve to approve the Tourism what we are simply calling for. Nothing new, nothing Policy. Thank you. else. Question put and agreed to. MS KERENG: Thank you Honourable Member. Honourable Member, perhaps you could explain it MR SPEAKER: It is exactly 1 o’clock on the dot. better in Seherero language. When you say to “restore” Therefore, Honourable Members we break for lunch you mean that someone had lost something so you are then we come back at 2 p.m.

Hansard No 201 17 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED AT 1:00 P. M. FOR (iii) Both schools have been prioritised for cyclic APPROXIMATELY ONE HOUR maintenance during the financial year 2021/22. I thank you Mr Speaker. PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00 P. M. MR REGOENG: Supplementary. Thank you for “EXCHANGE OF SPEAKERSHIP” that answer because you promised that the cyclic MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Order! Order! maintenance will be done in 2022. I believe that will Honourable Members, good afternoon. Let us resume be done Honourable Minister. In 2022 we will see our business with questions. something being done because those schools are in a bad state and pupils should not even be attending there. QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER However, I thank you because your response came with a promise. DELAPIDATED ROOFS AND CEILINGS MOSOJANE-TSHESEBE AND MASUNGA ROAD MR O. REGOENG (MOLEPOLOLE NORTH): PROJECT asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development: MR S. N. MOABI (TATI WEST): asked the Minister of Transport and Communications to state progress in (i) if he is aware that the roofs and ceilings of the Mosojane-Tshesebe and Masunga Road project. classrooms at Bakwena National School and Kealeboga Primary School are dilapidated and MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND are a potential health hazard to both pupils and COMMUNICATIONS (MR SEGOKGO): Thank teachers; you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, Tshesebe-Masunga Road project is still being litigated before the courts. We are (ii) when the last comprehensive maintenance works hopeful since it was taken to the Appeals Court, which is were carried out at the aforesaid schools; and the highest court in the land. It will be heard this month (iii) when the next maintenance works will be done. or during the Appeal Court Session Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, because of those reasons I am not in a position ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL to update more than that on this case. This matter is sub GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT judice and the project has halted. Thank you Mr Speaker. (MR AUTLWETSE): Thank you Mr Speaker. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Moabi, you heard (i) Mr Speaker, I am aware that the roofs and what the Minister’s challenge is. Do you have any ceilings of classrooms at Bakwena National and supplementary? Kealeboga Primary Schools are in a bad state. However, efforts have been made to carry out MR MOABI: Supplementary. Honourable Minister, minor maintenance on ceilings in both schools I hear you though you have not included the date. through the recurrent budget to eliminate the risk Honourable Minister, as we normally engage, do you of any potential health hazard to both pupils and not think it is important that maybe we should go there teachers. like you once did and update our voters on why the road project has delayed? Last time we promised them that it The long-term solution to the condition of both is coming. Do you not think it important that we should schools is to replace the whole roof structures but go and update the leadership who is affected by that due to budgetary constraints, this has not been project? Thank you Mr Speaker. achieved. MR SEGOKGO: Thank you Honourable Moabi. It is (ii) Mr Speaker, the last comprehensive maintenance actually important that I keep updating those affected works were carried out in 2010 at Kealeboga at Masunga, Mosojane and Tshesebe about this road Primary School and in 2007 at Bakwena National project to understand what the situation is. Though I School. However, the school toilets were did not give you the date, firstly let me inform you that maintained during the 2020/2021 financial year as I have requested the Deputy Secretary to update you part of COVID-19 pandemic response. every time there is a change, as well as Magosi.

18 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

DR TSHABANG: Supplementary. Thank you Mr MR SPEAKER: Thank you. Honourable Dr Dow. Speaker. Honourable Minister, maybe you can explain how this road project ended up at court because it had …Silence… already commenced. We saw it being constructed and ABUSE OF TEACHERS then it was abruptly halted. MR M. REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, I think you asked the Minister of Basic Education: explained the other day but there you are. (i) how many teachers have been subjected to abuse MR SEGOKGO: Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, by students on drugs in the past two years; like you are saying, last time I updated but anyway let me try to explain. Initially this project was awarded to (ii) whether these numbers are increasing or a company… decreasing, and if increasing;

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. (iii) whether the teachers’ security at work is not compromised; and MR SPEAKER: No. (iv) what policy interventions are in place to protect HONOURABLE MEMBER: Standing Order 57.2 is teachers. against what he is doing. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION MR SPEAKER: I said no. Honourable Minister (MS MAKWINJA): Good afternoon Mr Speaker and Segokgo. Honourable Members.

…Silence… (i) Mr Speaker, incidences of assault on teachers by learners under intoxication are rare. Since 2019, MR SPEAKER: Do you now see what you did? my ministry has recorded three cases of assault on HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, I am protecting you teachers in which the learners were intoxicated on drugs or alcohol. since you are my uncle, they are trapping you. (ii) The statistics reflect one such assault in 2019, and HONOURABLE MEMBER: PPP, you caused him to the cases increased to two cases in 2020. mute. (iii) The statistics do not indicate that the security of HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes, you are teachers is compromised due to learners who are contravening the law. intoxicated. However, there is concern that the HONOURABLE MEMBER: You bewitched him … interaction between staff and learners on a day- (Laughter!)… to-day basis may lead to violence, particularly where there is confrontation. This includes assault MR SEGOKGO: Pardon Mr Speaker. I did not realise on learners and staff in the absence of alcohol or that I have muted. Mr Speaker, I was explaining that intoxicating substances. this project was awarded to Bash Carriers (Pty) Ltd to construct it. It started construction on 16th May 2017 (iv) The security of teachers, staff and learners is a and the project was halted on the 25th September 2018 priority and schools have officers who provide on the basis that the contractor was not doing their job, security at the gate and across the school campus. the project was not progressing. Thereafter, it was taken Learners are not allowed to carry any weapons to for re-tendering and was awarded to Bango on the ninth school as a measure to ensure safety for all within September in 2019. That is when issues started. the school environment. In addition, the Pastoral Policy along with Guidance and Counselling MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member for Ghanzi Officers give learners guidance on the dangers of North, Honourable Thiite. drug and alcohol abuse, and how learners should HONOURABLE MEMBER: Good afternoon Mr conduct themselves in an acceptable manner. I Speaker. I will take it for him Mr Speaker. Thank you. thank you.

Hansard No 201 19 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MR REATILE: Supplementary. Thank you Mr (i) to update this Honourable House on progress Speaker, thank you Minister for presenting that answer following his response to a “Minister’s Question in the House. Minister, concerning incidences of Time” on the “Review of Competency Based assault on teachers by learners, can you give us the Career Path (CBCP) for Secretaries”, of 14th number of those you have compensated since they have December, 2018; and Question 113 (2) of 11th experienced injuries at work? December, 2019 by Honourable Majaga on the implementation of the Court Order issued on I did not understand you quite well Minister, you said the 27th January, 2017, regarding the disputed they are not allowed to bring weapons to school as Directive No.1 of 2015 Secretarial Cadre stated by the document but they bring them anyway. So Competency Based Career Path; did you appoint security officers to search every day to ensure that teachers are safe? Thank you. (ii) to provide a definite date of implementation of the reviewed CBCP since the task teams concluded MS MAKWINJA: Thank you Honourable. I do their findings and provided feedback to the not have an answer to the question on the number of employer on 7th October, 2020; teachers who were compensated. This is because it takes long to investigate these issues to identify the cause. I do (iii) if he would not concede that the matter has taken not have it right now but I will find it for you. rather too long and the cadre continues to suffer injustice and/or prejudice as a result of unfair Secondly, you are right Honourable, we have laws administrative decisions by the Directorate of which state that learners should not bring harmful Public Service Management (DPSM) when objects to school. As you know, they bring them and reviewing their Scheme of Service in 2015; and they are usually discovered. I was told that if you can open a drawer for every Principal, you will find knives (iv) as it is clear that DPSM is disregarding the time set and everything else there. So this is the lifestyle which in the Court Order to resolve this dispute, would Principals and teachers fight against on a daily basis. it not give rise to suspicion that the employer can now take the liberty to change some portions of Security; learners sometimes do not enter through the the agreements reached with the task team since school gate but through some channels, these things they have completed their assignment. happen. Thank you Honourable. Later Date. MR MMOLOTSI: Further supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. Minister, it is clear that the condition SHORTAGE OF WATER IN TUTUME of teachers’ security is compromised since learners continue to pose as a threat to their lives. Like it is the DR N. TSHABANG (NKANGE): asked the Minister case in other ministries, do you not think it is time to of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services if give teachers risk allowance? he is aware of acute shortage of water in Tutume and surrounding villages; if so, what are the short term MS MAKWINJA: Thank you Honourable. It is a solutions to address the shortage. suggestion which I will take to the management. As you know, our budget does not allow us to at least MINISTER OF LAND MANAGEMENT, WATER increase security so that they can search learners upon AND SANITATION SERVICES (MR MZWINILA): their arrival at school, it is therefore going to be difficult Mr Speaker, my ministry is aware of water supply moving forth. We can come up with these ideas but I challenges in Tutume and surrounding villages. cannot promise the nation at home because our budget Shortage of water is experienced in the villages of does not even allow us to increase security in school, so Tutume, Matobo, Goshwe, Makuta and Nswazwi with that they can control the situation. Thank you. a total deficit of 881.55m³ (0.27ML/day). Mr Speaker, water supply deficit in the short term for these villages REVIEW OF CBCP FOR SECRETARIES is being addressed through bowsing. There are currently eight bowser trucks used to supply water under the MR O. RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): asked the Minister Tutume Service Center. However, when some bowsers for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public are down for repairs, schools and health facilities are Administration: prioritised. Usually on average, one or two bowsers

20 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

would go for repairs in a given month. The eight bowsers because most of the time, they cause shortage of water? are comprised of five bowsers from Water Utilities Thank you Mr Speaker. Corporation (WUC), two bowsers from Botswana Defence Force (BDF) and one bowser from the Central MR MZWINILA: Thank you Honourable Speaker. Transport Organisation (CTO). WUC bowsers are In terms of the bowsing issue, we have really made always given a priority at garages. Therefore, it takes a efforts to increase the number of bowsers such that we maximum of five days for these bowsers to be repaired. took bowsers from Botswana Defence Force (BDF) as I mentioned in my response. We only had five, so due At times of breakdowns, the re-scheduling of a reduced to financial constraints we were unable to procure more number of bowsers becomes the responsibility of the so we ended up borrowing more from the Botswana General Manager of Tutume Service Centre. The re- Defence Force (BDF) and CTO. As I explained, in the scheduling is done in consultation with key stakeholders next four months in August 2021, we will have a long- (District Commissioner, Honourable Members of term plan to address the water shortage at Tutume and Council, Honourable Council Chairperson and Dikgosi surrounding villages. in respective wards). In addition, the consultation is There was a question about low pressure; low pressure done through a WhatsApp group which also include the is caused by pipe leaks which are some of the things area Honourable Members of Parliament. we try to repair. As I explained, we are embarking on The optimised long-term plan to address the water a long-term plan so the Honourable Member should shortage include the completion of the North East understand that we are making attempts to address all Tutume Water Supply Project which is estimated for these issues which have always been there. Thank you completion in August 2021 or in four months’ time from Honourable Speaker. now. The current progress of the project is at 70 per cent RETIREMENT OF ACADEMICS AT UB against a planned progress of 75 per cent completion rate. To address a delay in progress, the contractor has MR D. L. KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE been tasked to come up with an action plan to remediate WEST): asked the Minister of Tertiary Education, for the lost time. The project delays were mainly caused Research, Science and Technology: by delayed material deliveries on site as an impact of (i) to update this Honourable House on academics the COVID-19 pandemic. There were also delayed who have voluntarily and compulsorily retired at recruitment of unskilled labour during the period of the age of 65 at the University of Botswana (UB) lockdowns. Heavy rainfall also contributed to the delay and to specifically state the number of: (a) Senior of the project. The contractor has since submitted the Lecturers; (b) Associate Professors; (c) Full proposal to WUC for assessment and approval. I thank Professors; and you Mr Speaker. (ii) to explain international best practice in respect of DR TSHABANG: Supplementary. Thank you Mr retirement of academics and the extent to which Speaker. Thank you Honourable Minister. I hear you this is practised at local public tertiary institutions. loud and clear about the part of bowsing but currently MINISTER OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, it is the only one we are relying on, if it is down, you RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY (DR allude that you prioritise schools and clinics. But there LETSHOLATHEBE): Thank you very much Speaker. is an outcry in the village that even if bowsers are fully Thank you Honourable Keorapetse for that question. operational, there is shortage of water at the communities so they wonder if the eight bowsers are fully functional (i) Mr Speaker, academics who have voluntarily why is there still shortage of water? You need to address and compulsorily retired at the age of 65 at the that part. Secondly, I thought you will mention the low University of Botswana include: water pressure from Maitengwe wellfield because the Senior Lecturers 12 public can see that there are pipe leakages everywhere which cause low pressure from Maitengwe wellfield Associate Professors 17 to Tutume and beyond. Which means if there is low pressure especially if we use gravity to push water, are Professors 3 we going to carry on without repairing these pipe leaks Total 32

Hansard No 201 21 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

(ii) Mr Speaker, a common practice is that universities MR T. LETSHOLO (KANYE NORTH): asked would try to retain some of their best and the Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and experienced academic staff after retirement, as Public Administration: long as they are still in good health, and can still add value to the university. Universities would (i) if he will consider honouring some of Botswana’s then use various ways to appoint them on post political stalwarts for example, naming the A1 retirement contracts. road after Botswana’s second and longest serving President Sir Q. K. J. Masire; the Mahalapye On the basis of need of the departments; University Hospital after Dr. Kenneth Koma and the Nata- of Botswana (UB), Botswana University of Maun road after Mr Motsamai Mpho; Agriculture and Natural Resources (BUAN), Botswana International University of Science (ii) what positives will accrue as a result of this move; and Technology (BIUST) would appoint some and academics on post retirement contracts. I thank you very much Mr Speaker. (iii) what will stop the Minister from doing same.

…Silence… ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC MR SPEAKER: Honourable Keorapetse, you are not ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): Thank audible. you Mr Speaker.

MR KEORAPETSE: Can you hear me now? Mr Speaker, there is a policy and practice for Government to honour and name some public facilities after MR SPEAKER: I can. distinguished citizens who have had major contributions MR KEORAPETSE: Supplementary. Thank you Mr to socio-economic development of this country. Such a Speaker. Let me ask the Minister if he is not concerned process is carefully done so as to ensure that it is well about the current administration at the university where targeted with a view to making a monumental mark. Professors or esteemed academics retire at the age of 65? Secondly, in the past, Professors have been able Having said that Mr Speaker, as of now, I do not have to lecture until the age 100 years as long they can any plans to consider naming A1 road after Botswana’s deliver and impart knowledge so why do Professors at second and longest serving President Sir Q.K.J. Masire, university now retire at the age of 65? Mahalapye Hospital after Dr Kenneth Koma and Nata- Maun road after Mr Motsamai Mpho. However, these DR LETSHOLATHEBE:Thank you Honourable. I am names as well as others, will always be considered going not concerned; I am not at all concerned why because forward. Mr Speaker, there are some processes that may not all of them are compelled to retire at 65. There are situations where one can reach 65 but has a PhD student accrue to the naming of the facilities after such citizens. so the contract can be extended; post retirement contract. …(interruptions)…citizens’ appreciation and happiness For example, at UB, there were 14 staff members whose for recognising one of their own etcetera. contracts were extended after passing the 65 years age Mr Speaker, as I have indicated, such an action requires mark. Seven of them are still there, seven have retired. a well thought out process to identify the suitability of There are some other ways which renowned Professors facilities and whether that recognition will be sufficient around the world can apply for funds internationally on the person concerned. It will certainly not be proper and the university such as University of Botswana can provide an office, internet to continue their research but to use such a distinguished name on a facility which in they are not in the university roll. So with that being the eyes of the people is not a real landmark. I thank said, it still works Honourable Member. Thank you very you Mr Speaker. much once more. MR LETSHOLO: Supplementary. Thank you Mr HONOURING BOTSWANA’S POLITICAL Speaker. Just to ask the Minister if there is consideration STALWARTS to rename the A1 at all? Thank you.

22 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MR MTHIMKHULU: Thank you Mr Speaker. There MR MOATLHODI: May the good Lord help the is currently no such consideration but in the future, if Honourable Minister to sort out the problem with a view that is necessary, it may be considered. Thank you Mr to helping our staff. I thank you Mr Speaker. I thank you Speaker. Honourable Minister.

SHORTAGE OF WATER AT RAMATLABAMA SCHOLARSHIPS AWARDED TO TERTIARY BORDER GATE STUDENTS

MR P. P. P. MOATLHODI (TONOTA): asked the MR D. SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): asked the Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and if it is true that immigration staff at Ramatlabama Border Technology to state the percentage split in monetary Gate have been experiencing acute shortage of water terms of scholarships awarded to tertiary students for almost 12 months and at times go to work without placed at public institutions and those enrolled at private properly bathing; and if so: tertiary institutions in the last five years.

(i) to state the cause of this problem; and MINISTER OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY (ii) how and when she intends to address the problem (DR LETSHOLATHEBE): Thank you once more Mr MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION Speaker. Let me thank you Leader of the Opposition AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MS MOKGETHI): (LOO), Honourable Saleshando for your question. Let Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me thank Honourable P.P.P. me explain that the Government pays the tuition fees Moatlhodi for the question. of tertiary students. We pay their tuition fees and their allowances. We do that in… (i) Mr Speaker, indeed there is water shortage at Ramatlabama Border which affects all staff of …Silence… the border agencies comprising of Immigration, MR SALESHANDO: I cannot hear you sir. Botswana Unified Revenue Service (BURS), Botswana Police Service, Department of Road DR LETSHOLATHEBE: Let me start by thanking Transport and Safety, which is the Government Mr Speaker. Let me also thank you LOO, Honourable Weigh Bridge, Agriculture and Port Health. Saleshando. Mr Speaker, let me explain that the However, I wish to report that the source of water Government pays students’ allowances and their tuition at this border post has been a borehole which fees. We do that by paying tuitions in private and public has not been running well due to low yields institutions. In the five years that… since 2020. When the low yield problem started, BURS engaged a team of consulting engineers to …Silence… diagnose the problem and recommend solution. MR SALESHANDO: I lost you again sir. Their findings were that the low yield could only get worse and recommended for prospecting and MR SPEAKER: You are lost again. drilling a new borehole. This has necessitated the DR LETSHOLATHEBE: Somebody is keeping on procurement of water tanks mid last year to all muting me, who is that? houses occupied by the officers so far mentioned for provision of water bowsing in case of shortage. MR SPEAKER: I do not know but we keep on losing Already, there is a resident water bowser provided. you. On the basis of the above clarity Mr Speaker, no staff members go to work without bathing HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is Honourable properly. Tshabang.

(ii) On the question of how the problem will be MR SALESHANDO: What is Fourth Industrial remedied, two borehole sites have been surveyed Revolution (4IR) doing to you? by BURS and I have been reliably informed that DR LETSHOLATHEBE: Can I continue Mr Speaker? the drilling tendering process has commenced for the two boreholes. I thank you Mr Speaker. MR SPEAKER: Yes, please.

Hansard No 201 23 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Leave your head alone Development Council (HRDC) has recognised as Mokhurutshe and answer. important for them to be done in our country; one. Secondly, Botswana Qualifications Authority (BQA) DR LETSHOLATHEBE: No, I am not Mokhurutshe. has approved them. When these two have been satisfied, Mr Speaker, thank you very much. Thank you we allow that a student can go wherever they wish to go. Honourable LOO, Honourable Saleshando. Let me There is no student we restrict from going to a private or explain that the Government pays the students’ tuitions public institution. We have not done that and we will not and allowances. We do that in private and public allow that. We want students to choose for themselves, institutions. In the last five years as LOO wants to know, and if there are those who were once prevented from 55 per cent of that money went to public institutions. going wherever they had wanted to go Leader of the That money amounted to around P7, 927,337,158 and 45 per cent went to private institutions which translates Opposition, I kindly request you to give me their names; to around P7, 367,977,860. I can address that issue, because it would be something that is not allowed. I thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, let me explain that since we established the Ministry of Tertiary Education in 2016, we sponsored BUDGET FOR BOTSWANA’S ASSIGNMENT students with quotas. We agreed that a certain number MR J. L. THIITE (GHANZI NORTH): asked the of students should go to a certain institution. After that Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation to we took the decision that that was not a good thing, and state: students started choosing where they wanted to go from 2017. It seems like the numbers are still 55 per cent at (i) what is the expected budget for Botswana’s public and 45 per cent at private institutions. Last year assignment as chair of the Southern African we made the decision to look deeper into this. We came Development Community (SADC) Organ on up with Selection Boards which focused on seeing that Politics, Defence and Security Cooperation; students are admitted where they wished to go because we pay for them with loans and grants. It is not that they (ii) issues that Botswana expects to deal with as chair; are sponsored for free. We expect them to repay that and money. After we established those boards, there was a (iii) the successes and challenges of the organ in the change whereby 67 per cent this year went to students last 12 months. of public institutions and 33 per cent went to private institutions. Thank you a lot Mr Speaker. MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND MR SALESHANDO: Supplementary. Minister COOPERATION (DR KWAPE): Thank you Mr should explain the reasons that can prevent them from Speaker. sponsoring a student who has chosen an institution they (1) I wish to preface my response by reminding this wish to enrol at? Is he satisfied that, even if a student august House that Botswana was elected to the has chosen an institution, they can end up making a Chairship of Southern African Development decision they want? Are you satisfied that it seems like Community (SADC) Organ on Politics, Defence you are decreasing the number of students who go to and Security Cooperation during the 40th Ordinary private institutions and you are enrolling more students Summit of the SADC Heads of State and at Government institutions? Are you not discouraging Government, which was held virtually on the 17th private investment in tertiary education? August 2020. The Chairship is for a period of one DR LETSHOLATHEBE: Thank you LOO. No, we do year, from August 2020 until August 2021. not allocate and decide where the students go. There is I also wish to state that the Organ is an important no student we restrict from going to an institution of institution of SADC, responsible for the promotion their choice. If a student wants to go to a private or of peace, security and stability of the region. public institution, we allow him or her. I said we do that because we know that we have loaned them that (2) Mr Speaker, it is difficult to state the expected budget money and most of them will repay that money. What for Botswana’s assignment as Chair of the Organ. we do in cases where we limit is that, a student would This is because the budget of the Organ is dispersed have enrolled for courses that the Human Resource across various ministries and departments that take

24 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

part in the activities of the Organ. These ministries SADC Election Observation Missions (SEOMs), and departments are: Maritime Security, establishment of SADC Counter Terrorism Centre and the deployment of the SADC (i) The Ministry of International Affairs and Standby Force in emergency relief operations during Cooperation, natural disasters. (ii) Ministry for Presidential Affairs, Governance His Excellency Dr Mokgweetsi Masisi, as the Chair and Public Administration, of the Organ, is expected to give a comprehensive report to the SADC Summit in August 2021, on the (iii) Ministry of Defence, Justice and Security, success and challenges of the Organ when he hands (iv) Ministry of Nationality, Immigration and over the Chairship to South Africa. I would not Gender Affairs like to pre-empt his report at this stage. However, I would like to assure this esteemed House that we (v) Attorney General’s Chambers, have indeed registered a lot of achievements. This has been evidenced by five Organ meetings that (vi) Botswana Defence Force, Botswana convened in promoting democracy, peace, (vii) Directorate on Intelligence and Security security and stability in our region. As the Chair of the Organ, Botswana also led the SADC Virtual Service, Electoral Stakeholders’ Engagements Mission for (viii) Botswana Police Service, both Seychelles and Tanzania elections, between October and November 2020. (ix) Botswana Prisons Service, The challenges that we continue to experience in (x) Directorate on Corruption and Economic discharging our mandate as the SADC Organ Chair, Crime (DCEC), are associated with COVID-19 pandemic. As a (xi) Botswana Unified Revenue Services (BURS) result of the COVID-19 pandemic and the travel and the restrictions that ensued, we had to forgo some of these activities which could not be undertaken (xii) Department of Wildlife and National Parks through virtual platforms. I thank you Mr Speaker. (DWNP). MR MAJAGA: It is Honourable Majaga Mr Speaker. I However, the Ministry of International Affairs have a problem with technology this side, I have called and Cooperation has already spent P834,870 the Information Technology (IT) officers, and it seems which was spent during the meeting of as if things will get better. Ministerial Committee of the Organ and the Extraordinary Organ Troika held in Gaborone MR SPEAKER: Just wait, hold your peace. th th from 25 to 27 November 2020. GUARDIAN FUND (3) Mr Speaker, in general, the political and security DR U. DOW (SPECIALLY ELECTED): asked the situation has remained relatively stable in the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development SADC region. Member States continue to adhere to whether he is aware that upon turning 18 years, a person democratic values and practises by holding regular emerging out of minority will have his or her account national democratic elections. credited with monies which had been held in the Notwithstanding the above, there are continued Guardian Fund managed by the Registrar of the High security threats caused by negative forces in the Court on his or her behalf and: Eastern part of the Democratic Republic of Congo (i) if the answer is in the affirmative, whether he has (DRC) and the terrorist activities in the Northern observed a pattern emerging where children who Province of Cabo Delgado in Mozambique. The had been under his care, under the Social and Organ also continues to accord attention to Reform Community Development (S&CD) programme Processes in the Kingdom of Lesotho. or had been under the care of their relatives, Other issues that Botswana is expected to deal with come into contact with these monies without any as Chair are; but not limited to; deployment of training or guidance on financial management;

Hansard No 201 25 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

(ii) whether he has not observed a pattern emerging DR DOW: I thank the Minister, Mr Speaker, I have no where some, not all, of these young people have further questions. become targets for drug dealers; MR SPEAKER: We have run out of time, thank you (iii) whether he does not think it is necessary to very much. establish a training programme to assist these MR MAJAGA: Mr Speaker, procedure! young people to transit from childhood to adulthood with necessary skills to manage their MR SPEAKER: There is no procedure, there is nothing newfound wealth; on procedure, you were not there.

(iv) whether he does not consider it reasonable to MR MAJAGA: No, I was there Mr Speaker, I propose legislation and/or policy to promote encountered a situation similar to that of… the use of these funds for the education of the beneficiaries, as some simply use it to buy vehicles MR SPEAKER: The time for questions is over and drugs and end up being destitute and in some Honourable Majaga. cases, drug addicts. MR MAJAGA: No, but you must plead with us Mr ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL Speaker, because we are using technology instead of GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT just being furious...(inaudible) ... (MR AUTLWETSE): Mr Speaker, I am well aware MR SPEAKER: Yah, but the time is over. that upon turning 18 years, a person emerging out of minority will have his or her account credited with MR MAJAGA: We have been sent here by people. monies, which had been held in the Guardian Fund managed by the Registrar of the High Court on his or MR SPEAKER: I do not know anyone who has not her behalf. been sent here by people. (i) Mr Speaker, I have observed that young people, INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, including those who had been under my care 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) come into contact with these monies prior to any Second Reading training or guidance on financial matters. Further to that, there is no legislation or policy in place MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC which facilitates the involvement of my ministry DEVELOPMENT (DR MATSHEKA): Good nor provision of any guidance on the use of such afternoon Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I stand to present funds. the Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No. 13 of 2021) which was first published on the 26th March as (ii) I acknowledge that giving such funds to Bill No. 11 and republished on the 9th April 2021. The beneficiaries who have not been trained on latter publication Mr Speaker, was aimed at correcting financial management, may expose them to some typos in the Bill, rather than altering the substance other social ills, including being targeted by drug of the original Bill. dealers. Mr Speaker, it will be recalled that I proposed some (iii) Mr Speaker, I agree that on account of the tax changes in my 2021 Budget Speech, as part of emerging challenges faced by children and young the fiscal measures to respond to the impact ofthe adults who have access to money, it has become COVID-19 pandemic on the domestic economy. These necessary that training on financial literacy be tax measures are aimed at broadening the domestic tax provided. base and diversify the structure of the country’s revenue In this regard, my ministry has started work on base and reduce the country’s reliance on two sources the development and review of Social Protection of revenues, mainly minerals and custom receipts which Policies, including the Family Policy, where in poses a serious challenge. However, given the impact matters such as this one, among others, are to be of the COVID-19 pandemic on every sector of the addressed. I thank you Mr Speaker. economy, including the household, Government has had to consider reducing the tax burden on low income MR SPEAKER: No supplementary? earners.

26 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

In this regard Mr Speaker, the proposed amendments introduces withholding tax for Director’s Fees at 10 per of the Income Tax Act is to increase the threshold from cent for residents and 15 per cent for non-residents. This P36, 000.00 to P48, 000.00 per annum, thus cushioning is a tax collection measure given that some people who tax payers from the impact of COVID-19 pandemic. are members of boards do not declare such fees as part Increasing the minimum tax threshold from P36, 000.00 of their income and therefore the income escapes on the to P48, 000.00 per annum will benefit over 27 000 tax interest. I will move a slight amendment Mr Speaker payers, who will instantly escape the tax bracket by at Committee stage of this Bill around this particular falling off the register of tax payers. Clause.

This Mr Speaker, means putting back money into the Mr Speaker, Clause 5 of the Bill amends Table 1 of pockets of tax payers effective July 2021, money that the 8th Schedule to increase the Individual Income Tax would have been due to Government coffers. This threshold of residents from P36, 000.00 to P48, 000.00 measure will benefit all income earners, regardless of per annum. Furthermore, the Clause also amends Table whether they are in formal employment or self-employed. 3 of the same Schedule to increase a Withholding Tax The estimated revenue lost to Government from this tax for dividends from 7.5 per cent to 10 per cent. The proposal is P16, 000, 000.00 per annum. However, to rationale for this amendment is to boost tax revenue partially compensate for the foregone tax, the Income given the current budgetary constraints. Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2021 also proposes to increase th some withholding tax. Specifically Mr Speaker, this Bill Clause 6 of the Bill Mr Speaker, amends the 12 proposes adjustments of some withholding tax as part of Schedule of the Act which deals specifically with mining the broader efforts to diversify domestic revenue base. It companies to provide for the 10 per cent Withholding is important that Botswana should increase its capacity Tax Rate on dividends paid to either residents or non- to finance its Recurrent Budget from Non-mineral residents. The amendment was missed when that of Income Tax and Value Added Tax (VAT) and reduce withholding Tax on dividends was reduced from 15 per its reliance on mineral and custom receipts which are cent to 7.5 per cent in 2011. volatile and susceptible to external economic shocks. Mr Speaker, I therefore move that the Income Tax Mr Speaker, the Bill itself is a short one with six Clauses (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No. 13 of 2021) which was in total. Clause 1 is the usual interpretation of the Bill. first published on the 26th March 2021 as Bill No. 11 and Clause 2 of the Bill amends Section 58 of the Income republished on 9th April be read a second time. I thank Tax Act by adding Paragraph H which introduces the you Mr Speaker. withholding tax on Directors Fees paid to residents and non-residents. The Clause also clarifies that the MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Minister. tax withheld in the case of purchase of livestock for Order! Order! The floor is open Honourable Members. slaughter and for feeding for slaughter is a final charge Honourable Members, you can indicate the interest to on tax. debate by a show of hands.

Clause 3 of the Bill amends Section 59 of the Income HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR Tax Act to provide that the ranks for withholding tax TSOGWANE): Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, on Directors Fees shall be specified in the th7 Schedule. I do not have much to say on the issue of income tax Further, the Clause also corrects the cross-referencing other than to accept what the Minister has presented and appearing in Paragraph 5 of Section 59 relating to Table other ideas which help cushion the effects of the income 3 of the 8th Schedule. tax on some people who are going to be affected by this increment. The issue that I would like to emphasis Mr Speaker, Clause 4 of the Bill amends the 7th Schedule is education on tax related issues. Issues pertaining to to remove the threshold of P1, 950.00 for withholding tax tax are complicated and it is not easy to understand on interest paid to a resident. Currently, the 10 per cent them. It is quite necessary for the Minister to empower withholding on interest paid to a resident only applies his workers so that they can also teach people about to interest accrued in excess of P1, 950.00 in a quarter tax, more especially income tax. In many occasions, of a year. Going forward Mr Speaker, withholding tax people who work for Orapa mines asked me to call would now apply a 10 per cent to any amount of interest tax specialists so that they can explain if their income paid by a bank to a resident. Clause 4 Mr Speaker, also money is legitimate. Last time I invited the responsible

Hansard No 201 27 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

Minister because people were not sure if that company ensure that the poor are not burdened by tax more so that was charging taxes according to Government tax the situation is now very bad. Value Added Tax (VAT) regulations. That is why I am saying, when it comes to has badly affected this group. I believe that when we issues of taxes and amending them, it is important that were crying you heard us as you are very understanding. they should be clarified. Public education is very critical We appreciate you for that Minister. when it comes to taxes for better understanding. When the year ends, we are also asked to fill tax returns and We appreciate that you have increased that those with it gives some people a hard time. Sometimes when they 7.5 should not be taxed and you moved the tax to those are supposed to be paid their gratuities, it is found that with 10 per cent profit. Honourable Matsheka, we they did not file correctly or they owe something while appreciate and welcome this development. they were not aware. That is why I am saying when it Honourable Matsheka, we should not forget to remind comes to this matter Mr Speaker, public education is you that there are companies which collect employees’ very critical. I am saying this particularly looking at tax and never take it to Government. We are very worried private companies because some collect taxes and end about this as was said by Honourable VP, Leader of the up not delivering them. This causes Government to lose House. Today I agree with him though they say I never income because people will be paying tax as they are agree with him. We are worried that the income of this advised, knowing that this tax is the source of income country seeps through the fingers. Let us find how we for Government and it is regulated by law. Sometimes can close those gaps. Not to put some in the spotlight, you do not even understand that law. I am not sure if you should be careful of companies of people who… the employers also understand how their employees are for lack of a better word, let me try to say the Asians supposed to pay tax or they just collect and these taxes who are all over this country. They collect tax from their end up not reaching Government coffers. employees and never take them there. Honourable Minister, public education on taxes is very important especially in private companies where people Honourable Minister, let me move on to another one. are employed and are not sure if they are charged tax There are some who advise people to pay tax like correctly or not. I support that the Bill pass so that taxes consultants who assist in making financial statements of can be collected appropriately. Even for those whose companies of directors you talked about here (director’s burdens are going to be lightened, we should see the allowance). These consultants prepare their statements difference. They should also recognise that their burden and they have a way of sometimes not doing a meticulous has been lightened and not just go on without knowing job. While you are still resting, you will hear a knock how their situation has been improved for lack of an that, Honourable Ramogapi, Honourable Matsheka, or explanation. whoever, you owe tax. This then contributes to you not paying your dues or when you are supposed to sell your With those few words, I support the Minister’s Income house, you are told that you cannot do that as you need Tax (Amendment) Bill. Thank you Mr Speaker. to go clear your tax first. These things are very painful. These consultants need action taken against them or be MR RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): Thank you Mr regulated in such a way that we can see that they are put Speaker. Let me take this opportunity to support the in order. Minister’s Bill brought before us to reduce taxes to improve the situation. What this Bill is saying is, if There is another one which confuses employees and I one was earning P36 000 per annum, the tax bracket want you to clarify it. A question is asked that when an will be increased. Mr Speaker, people who have been employee is paid severance benefits, does he or she pay earning P36 000 per annum have been paying tax and tax. It also falls here that people have been…when five they were burdened by that. We have been complaining years elapse, should they pay tax for their severance at Umbrella for Democratic Change (UDC) that they benefits? This severance benefit is where the employer are paid very little and could not be taxed rather the has been setting aside some money so that at the end, threshold should be lifted. So for the Minister to agree he or she can get a sizeable amount, at least we should with us that these people earn very little and they should understand if they are supposed to pay tax for it because not be taxed is quite commendable so that they can sometimes at Labour they say they are not supposed start paying tax when they earn P48 000 per annum. to pay tax and when we ask from Botswana Unified Minister, we congratulate you for that. This is going to Revenue Service (BURS) they say, every money is

28 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

taxed and therefore people must pay tax. The same made this decision. Mr Speaker, we already know that applies to gratuity. we are a landlocked country and it is said that we are a net importer of most of the commodities which we There is another one I want you to explain Honourable use on our daily lives. When it comes to all agricultural Matsheka under this tax, that when you talk about produce including processed ones, it estimated as P36 000 and P48 000 per annum, if the person in this per the Bank of Botswana and Statistics Botswana category has been saving P100, P200 every month, that we are spending over P600 million on a monthly should that person be taxed from those savings? These basis importing food. It is indicated that we imported are the questions we get from our voters that, I have fertilisers worth P207 million in 2018. Mr Speaker, we been told that I am not supposed to pay tax so, is my are still importing electricity which increases on a daily fault that I have been saving? BURS should correct basis. This is why we request Honourable Moagi to that or if there is any loophole, they should correct it generate electricity from the sunshine that we have in because that person is no longer eligible to pay tax and Botswana and provide it at affordable prices. This is the the money he or she has, is savings from the salary. We reason why we ask Honourable Moagi to consider fuel need to understand it very clearly. pipe on a daily basis so that we can buy at the source Honourable Matsheka, still on this one, since you are such that fuel price will be affordable in Botswana. saying you are now going to increase the tax bracket We are spending over P12 billion on an annual basis from P36 000 to P48 000, there is this one where a on fuel alone. Mr Speaker, I am saying these things person will be earning, say, P48 000 per annum and this because our production costs remain very, very high in person is renting out his or her one room and causing Botswana. You will find that our local companies… let an increase to that P48 000. Thereafter BURS says, no, me represent those in the agricultural sector, but I know now your bracket has gone up, you have extra income that it is expensive even in the manufacturing and other from one room. An old lady or someone without a salary different sectors of the economy, they are not making but renting out one room will be expected to pay tax profit. This is the reason why we pay wages that we can Honourable Matsheka. Minister, if we cannot compare afford at a lower rate because our profits are very low. these things, it is going to be said that we compelled Mr Speaker, I thought to present this policy so that we can understand why our wages are paid at lower rates Batswana to get in debts. Honourable Matsheka, we as a country. It is because we are importing a lot of raw support you so review these things to ensure that they materials and still at the same time, we wish to make correspond to each other so that they do not end up profit. A small profit such that we cannot afford salaries destroying Batswana. The aim of this Bill is to ensure worth P3, 000. Mr Speaker, if you consider the bulk of that we do not destroy Batswana. our population, most of them get a salary of P3, 000 or less. The income tax like Honourable Matsheka Lastly Honourable Matsheka, we have the tax table explained, talks about progressive tax paid by those which shows how much tax should be paid by private who get high salaries while those getting low salaries sectors and others respectively. Employers are looking pay less. for it especially that you have amended it, they might end up taxing people using 36 only to find that you I thank the Honourable Minister and the administration have amended it. They are requesting this big book of assembled today for reducing taxes for those salaries yours as soon as possible, which is as big as a directory worth P3, 000. They also decided to increase tax, Honourable Matsheka. I stand here supporting your especially for salaries worth P4, 000 because in a Bill Honourable. We are very pleased with it, so let it situation like this one, they are the ones who sustain be approved so that Batswana will not greatly suffer. everything in villages and towns like one member said. Thank you sir. Reduction of tax on salaries worth P3, 000 is going to ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURAL help them to have high household spending. That is, DEVELOPMENT AND FOOD SECURITY (MS people are going to remain with a reasonable amount as MANAKE): Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me start well as manage to buy in liquidity in the economy. these by supporting Honourable Matsheka’s Bill. Before are people who are going to support the informal sector debating it, I will start by bringing about a table which which we usually talk about; those who buy tomatoes is going to lead us somewhere, where we are able to from farms and sell them, those who sell sweets, tailors, understand why this is the case or why Government those selling bread and others. It is going to benefit

Hansard No 201 29 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

them because since those with salaries worth P3, 000 It should be something like how do we support you to or less will not be paying tax Honourable Minister, they facilitate you so that you lower the prices and people will remain with money which they can spend in the can produce and buy with reasonable prices. economy. Where we are today, the economy is actually looking for that, no matter how small of a difference Mr Speaker on that note, economists show that if the tax that money is. We are also considering that we have is low or you earn a lower salary and you are exempted increased Value Added Tax (VAT) last time. Honourable from tax as you made a decision that people earning less Minister, you tried to reduce impacts of inflation by than P3000 will be exempted from tax, this improves exempting them. productivity in the work place. If productivity in the work place improves, it means profits of corporate tax Mr Speaker, if those who get salaries worth P3, 000 or or business tax will also improve and the performance less are exempted from paying tax, that is when they of our economy also improves because you handled it are going to start to afford as well as access nutritious at the crux; productivity in the work place. Those who food like vegetables, fruits, lamb, beef, fish, chicken and earn P3000 are the ones in sectors such as agricultural others. We set a target in Vision 2036 that we should and manufacturing, and right now we are talking about be a healthy, educated and skilled nation Honourable industrialising the food system as well as other sectors Minister. I am trying to show that nutrition is very which have that potential. If you exempt those earning important in diet, especially for toddlers from five years P3000, this is going to have a very good …(Inaudible)…. downwards. If their parents can compromise due to into our economy. poverty since they cannot afford this and that, we might Mr Speaker, we have Self Help Housing Agency end up not having great leadership. It is these little things (SHHA) at the councils and some people could not which Government decided to do to enhance the lives of afford it, maybe that P300, I am not sure how much they people and as such, they are going to afford the basic paid for tax, or it is P100. They can use that money to pay needs like the food that I listed. They are also going to for the SHHA loan so that they can build and have good afford to buy better uniform for their children; jerseys, accommodation. You are giving these people a chance shoes and others. Honourable Minister, and we have to applaud and talk I have talked about nutrition and we believe it is going about this thing because the people we are talking about to boost the agricultural growth in our country. People are mostly at the rural area, they are the ones mainly will afford to buy more vegetables at the rank from the responsible for what we call rural development. This is informal sector. The informal sector will also afford to a wonderful initiative; exempting them from paying tax buy from farms and so on Mr Speaker. This is why I in order for them to afford more things which they could support Honourable Matsheka. not and to be able to actually stimulate the economy.

When talking about agricultural economy, we are talking I think His Honour the Vice President mentioned a about the rural economies; villages and remote areas. very good point, when he said, do we have the capacity This is where the lives of those who fend for themselves to understand the definition of tax and how it can be is going to change in that manner Honourable Minister. collected. Honourable Minister, as we are fully prepared and we are on the marks focusing on economic recovery, Mr Speaker, Ministry of Agriculture should now work it is now time to start building capacity on how to collect hard so that it can take advantage along the whole value tax and where it can be channeled to. Within our sector, chain. We should manufacture our own goods locally we know that a lot of our clientele are not paying tax, as well as have comparative advantage; we should it is not an issue that they do not want but they are not offer them to our people at affordable prices just as we aware that it is a criminal offence so try and close this manufacture seeds and fertilisers. We also have organic gap so that on our journey towards economic recovery, fertilizers where they mix cattle manure with the chicken everything will be in place because the people I have droppings. If you consider their prices Honourable been talking about are mostly the industrial class. They Minister, they are still very high, they are competing are the ones who are going to push the economy higher. with prices of imported fertilizers. Minister of Trade, They are going to produce, they are going to be more Honourable Molebatsi and Honourable Serame should efficient, because their mindset is at ease, they are happy assess this issue so that our production costs will not and can be more productive in terms of producing food be very high because they are manufacturing locally. and other products which we can sustain ourselves with

30 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

and reduce the substitution that we are getting from the Government of the Great Republic of Botswana, is south region as per the agreements. expected to continue developing this country, both infrastructurally and otherwise. Our Government can Honourable Minister, I support you to exempt those only so afford, if our Consolidated Fund is healthy, and earning P3000 from paying tax, this life is difficult, it can only be healthy if we continue to regularly and you should increase it to P4000. As the economy continuously collect Income Tax. The continuous and recovers, you will further increase it so that we can regular collection of Income Tax believe it or not Mr have a population base of people with status and can do Speaker, it shall only and it is the right way to crossing something for themselves. With those few remarks Mr the rubicon. Mr Speaker, I support the Bill. Speaker, I thank you. MR TSHERE (MAHALAPYE WEST): Thank you MR MOATLHODI (TONOTA): Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me thank you this afternoon. I oppose Honourable Speaker. Good afternoon sir. The this Bill Mr Speaker because our funds were wasted as Honourable Minister responsible for Finance and we always talked about the reserves. We should replace Economic Development, alluded to this message about these funds which have been wasted because we have to Income Tax during the time when he presented his finance other projects that is why we are increasing tax Budget Speech on the first of February 2021 years after for Batswana. We recently passed Bills here seeking to the departure of our Lord Jesus. If I was seated on that increase prices of petrol, electricity and levies and that prestigious chair of yours Mr Speaker, I would be saying is already affecting Batswana negatively. So today we to the Honourable Minister responsible for the chapter are coming up with another law that will now focus on that, he is being repetitive he must migrate and develop workers who have an income, so that we can continue new points. Now that he is here already, much as we taking their money. We take their money as taxes when appreciate the relief… before I say that Mr Speaker, let they go to shops, and we also get their income. That me say Honourable Leader of the House, His Honour is punishing Batswana and you are also making them the Vice President removed words from my mouth word extremely poor Mr Speaker. That is why I do not support for word, comma for comma. However, I am still going this policy to increase taxes on income which Batswana to stand my ground and read my message as drafted. rely on, and now they do not have that income as the taxes and levies you have introduced takes it all. Much as we appreciate the relief that the Honourable Minister intends on making on our fellow citizens in the This policy may seem like it gives like Honourable form of tax relief, however he must continue to educate Ramogapi was saying, that they are increasing from as well as robustly collect tax from those that qualify, 36,000 to 48,000. Yes, it is a good thing because it can more especially the big companies Mr Speaker. I want relieve those that are there, but those are just a few to repeat this, more especially the big companies. Let people who will benefit from this issue. This policy gives me remind you Mr Speaker, that the Lord Jesus Christ with one and takes a lot with the other hand. It is taking appeared before the crowd and he was seated on a sheet from the pockets of Batswana. So that is my concern in on the sea of Galilee, and many people gathered around regards to this policy that is focusing on workers and I him telling him what they expect from him. The tax do not think even the trade unions will like it; workers collector came, he said to the Lord Jesus Christ, Master, unions that advocate for the interests of workers and you have been telling everybody what to do, as a tax ensuring that workers benefit from their jobs. A worker collector what do you expect me to do? He said go and should not retire poor. It is because of these laws that collect tax, but do not collect more. To the Honourable encourage these kind of things whereby a worker will Minister responsible for the chapter, I am saying go and be poor their entire life even when they are on pension. collect tax more especially from the people that have, You are increasing this tax so that even when you are the have it. on pension, now people can continue paying money that has been increased this much. Mr Speaker that is Mr Speaker, we are all aware that COVID-19 weakening the economy in households, as that is where has vigorously devastated the potentiality of our people struggle with the situation of prices and taxes Consolidated Fund, and it is imperative that we must that keep on going up. now act as per our Setswana idiomatic expression, “noka e tlatswa ke melatswana” (meaning, you are If our Government that we voted for, was able to who are you because of the help from others). The conserve the little that we get from natural resources and

Hansard No 201 31 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

other taxes, we could not be increasing this many taxes support the issue of taxes very much. We have to pay if our Government paid attention; if they conserved taxes but we should not pay taxes in a way that, even as money. As you can hear that around 37 per cent of that a worker at the moment, you can see that this is really money ends in corruption. People are stealing, it is like affecting you; they take your money with the Income everyone is taking their share of the offals, in fact some Tax, then they also take it with taxes that are called are even stealing their own…in the past we knew of all sort of names, which their list is endless. That is offals that were shared when a cow was killed. At the the situation that makes me not to support this Bill to moment they just take the whole thigh and say that is increase prices again on top of the increments we have their share Mr Speaker. Some even take the whole cow already made. With those remarks Mr Speaker, I do not and they come empty handed to tell you that it has run support this policy. Thank you. away whereas they have taken it and sold it somewhere else. This is what is happening here, if now Batswana ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL are forced to pay, literally paying through their nose GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT to sustain the corruption and misuse of funds, that is (MR MODUKANELE): Thank you Mr Speaker. Let what concerns me a lot Mr Speaker that, we end up me thank you and indicate that I support the Bill by taking these things to Batswana. Batswana end up being Honourable Dr Matsheka. Let me start by indicating negatively affected by these issues. Mr Speaker that, the issue that was addressed by His Honour the Vice President and Leader of the House Lastly Mr Speaker, I am also concerned that this money in regards to tax education at large, is very important goes to revenue at Botswana Unified Revenue Service to have it as a country. I want to say Honourable Dr (BURS). We have long been complaining since the year Matsheka, when you implement it to not start far. Just of elections that, BURS does not have a Commissioner start from this House we are in because some comments because the one who is there has been acting since really indicate that as Honourable Members, we also do we went for elections. We tried to say that this is a not understand this issue of tax and what tax really is. delicate job, it needs someone who has been sworn I remember this Mr Speaker, that one of the leaders in and has settled into this position, and know that he who have ruled England, Mrs Thatcher, once told The has been appointed by Batswana, not the one who has House of Commons that, the Government had no Thebe been appointed over the counter by the President. So or Pound anywhere. The Government gets money from at the moment he has the interests of the person who a citizen of any country, and it may be a country like has appointed him. We want someone who has been Botswana. That is where Government gets money. appointed to that position based on their qualifications, Whether it is a citizen like us individually, or a citizen he or she should know that he has been appointed by in the name of a company or corporation, and it has to Batswana and he or she follows the Constitution of be a citizen in any situation who can generate income Botswana properly, and when we look at him or her as and is supposed to pay tax, that is where Government the Opposition, we should see that he or she is someone gets money. With that said Mr Speaker, I want to say who can manage our funds. Not whereby now you want Batswana should understand that there is nowhere the taxes from certain people and you do not want them Government has hidden a reserve that is full of money. from others as it seems like you are turning a blind. Government gets its money by taxing companies or us So these are the issues that are a concern for me Mr individually. Speaker because Acting Commissioner of BURS, if there are no other Batswana or if we can, let us appoint With that said, let me get back to Honourable Matsheka the Acting Commissioner. We should appoint him and whom I respect very much and maybe he can remember he becomes a full Commissioner of BURS. If there that in the past, I am one of the people who welcomed him is no other Motswana, hey! Nothing is preventing us at Directorate of Public Service Management (DPSM) from appointing a foreigner. We should go and find a when he started working. We all learn the ropes of our foreigner we can appoint as Commissioner. job there, and at that time, the threshold he is talking about today, the Government has managed to increase it I agree with all the taxes because like Honourable up to almost P50, 000. We are talking about P48, 000 if Moatlhodi was saying that, in the Bible, if you did not I am not mistaken. It was too low Mr Speaker, you can pay tax and you were somehow making a living, your also bear witness. That time the threshold for tax was hand was amputated so that you never work again. I P10, 000 if not less. It shows that this Government every

32 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

time she responds to the question on how a Motswana is the day, what this tax means to our lives and the life of a doing where they are. All these years when it sees that Motswana in this country. They should not be disturbed life becomes better, they keep saying ‘let us remember by the fact that we have brought a number of taxes. We the one who is at the bottom and they are paying tax; we take with this hand and then we give back with another. need to see how we could unburden them.’ Mr Speaker, I am saying this because I want to show that in the lack All the taxes that once came to this House, it was pointed we are in currently, which was not brought about by out clearly why they had to be there. As Honourable anyone in this House, or in this country, the Government Manake was saying earlier, she explained that the saw it fit to unburden about 27,000 from some of the situation that we are currently in is currently making the challenges we have according to the figures mentioned petrol prices to go high. The important thing which I by the Minister. They should not pay tax from 1st of July wish to point out is that she pointed out what we can of this year. Mr Speaker, the consequences of doing achieve going forward, to improve the situation. That that is that households or the 27, 000 individuals their is the kind of debate and suggestions that I am happy disposable income is going to increase from the 1st of about. When we talk about these things, we should come July of this year. When you increase an individual’s up with suggestions as to what could be done. Most of disposable income, you are literally increasing the the time I am not fortified by us just talking here and standing of the economy. Those people are going to there. We should come up with ways of doing things, spend more than what they have been doing now in the how we could improve. If I may borrow a statement economy. When they do that, money starts to circulate from one of the Members of Parliament, we should not in the economy. That is how the shops we buy mealie praise challenges Honourable Members. We should meal from would get something. Therefore, we really keep coming up with solutions in the process, so that we appreciate that. would know what we want to do at the end of the day. Mr Speaker I want to submit that… We should not confuse these things Honourable Members. A Motswana back at home might not HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable Modux, did understand us properly. There is no one who has ever you not hear my solutions? come to this House and said there is no corruption. We MR MODUKANELE: Honourable Ramogapi, you always say it here in one accord that where there is came up with suggestions and you also suggested corruption, we should sensitise the relevant departments solutions. I do agree, and I am saying, I encourage this that could deal with it. Mr Speaker, let me request the House that if you made some suggestions, all of us Honourable Members that we should do so. We should should try to do that. In the end Honourable Members, not mix things up. If we do that, we would soon take the we should not just appear to be condemning saying… long route, and suffer the consequences, when we could As I have pointed out Mr Speaker, I believe sometimes have taken a shorter route somewhere. we say certain things due to lack of knowledge. I would Mr Speaker, I would like to extend this issue a bit to like to request Honourable Dr Matsheka to know that say we are increasing this threshold, it is ensuring that just because we are putting on ties, we do not have to the one who earns P3,000 continues not to pay tax. It assume that… means they will afford to buy. If they used to come HONOURABLE MEMBER: If you have run out of back home with two plastic bags, they are now going things to say, why can you not just end your debate? to come with three. Such people are the ones whom Honourable Ramogapi was talking about. Those who HONOURABLE MEMBER: He will soon start are selling airtime, are going to buy more airtime now talking about dogs. and they will make better profit. The one who buys from Choppies and they come with two to three plastic HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is not audible bags, things are going to be better now. Most of these anymore. people, even when they are there in towns, we know HONOURABLE MEMBER: Please leave my that most of them are in the rural areas. In Honourable neighbour alone. He is my neighbour. Leuwe’s constituency, Honourable Modukanele and other Honourable Members in this House. I would like MR MODUKANELE: Mr Speaker, if Honourable those in Lerala-Maunatlala, to understand at the end of Mmolotsi does not know the expression I used yesterday,

Hansard No 201 33 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

yet he is apparently an English teacher, he should come HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Speaker, are we still to me so that I can show him. I will tell you what it in Parliament? means. It says if you are in a race, having a destination HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable you are headed to…Some of us have a destination we Modukanele undermines teachers, and that is not right, are headed to. We want to take Botswana forward. It he has to apologise. seems you have reached your destination where you are. Just stay there, you will find out someday, if you decide MR SPEAKER: There is no need for you to say to join the journey of where we want to take Botswana. anything, it is Honourable Mmolotsi. There is no With that due respect... apology for anything.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable MR MODUKANELE: Mr Speaker, allow me to finish; Modukanele, that person is not an English teacher; he thank you Mr Speaker. Let me conclude by saying three was teaching students how to sow cabbages. things which I would like to buttress; the issue of tax education, the disposable income is going to increase as MR MODUKANELE: Oh well, I thought as much. Let well as critical taxes. Mr Speaker, I would like to echo me conclude this way Mr Speaker… that. I would also like to buttress that Batswana should HONOURABLE MEMBER: Just say ‘thank you’ and understand how each and every tax can affect them, give others a chance to debate. and we should also see how this pinch does not affect Batswana adversely Mr Speaker. That is why Minister HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... Matsheka is talking about 27 000 people who are no longer going to pay tax starting from the 1st July. Mr HONOURABLE MEMBER: So this is how you look Speaker, I want to stress this number so that Batswana down upon teachers? can hear that this Government is very sensitive when it HONOURABLE MEMBER: Are you undermining comes to their lives, the Government is serious about agriculture? ensuring that Batswana live well, and since 1966 up to date, Batswana are still living well. Mr Speaker, we HONOURABLE MEMBER: Is this how you are should not entertain people who will only come and undermining agriculture? praise challenges upon seeing that we have arrived. We are not going to take that. Thank you Mr Speaker. MR SPEAKER: You are acting clever. Honourable Modukanele is answering for himself. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Apologise to the teachers. HONOURABLE MEMBER: But he is looking down upon teachers. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Molale.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Why can he not provoke HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)… me and leave teachers out of it? MR MODUKANELE: Mmolotsi is not ‘teachers’. HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is looking down HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable Molao is upon the poor teachers. Teachers will not be happy the minister responsible for teachers, not Modukanele. about being treated like that. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Molao also demeans MR SPEAKER: How is he looking down upon them? teachers, we know him, he always does this. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Why are you MR MOLAO: The topic is not about teachers but undermining teachers? No, the teachers will not be Honourable Mmolotsi. Is Mmolotsi a teacher? happy at all, about your undermining them. I am advocating for them. MR MMOLOTSI: No, you said that I am an Agriculture teacher, which means that you do not take agriculture MR MODUKANELE: There is no one who has serious. undermined the teachers Honourable Boko. You are the one who will be undermining them. There is no one who MR SPEAKER: Honourable Molale is not there. has undermined them. Honourable Makwinja!

34 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION should pull them towards things which will not take the (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Mr Speaker. Afternoon little that they will gain from this tax reduction. It is very again Honourable Members. I would also like to important. comment on the Income Tax (Amendment) Bill 2021 presentation. I support Honourable Matsheka with I would also like to move on to Clause 3 which talks the following reasons, the Honourable Members have about amendment of Director’s Fee which is to be already addressed most of these points so I will not increased. When we look at the situation that is found in elaborate them further. our parastatals since Directors, Board of Directors are mostly found there, Ministers and Honourable Members, As it has already been said, we know that we have been we know that in Botswana, boards are not paid like in complaining about poverty which was also extensively our neighbouring countries, if we compare ourselves to stirred by COVID-19, more especially on people who them. That is why this is triggering a situation whereby we label as the less privileged people. It is actually a we could be having proficient board members, but they brilliant initiative that the Minister found it necessary realise that they would just be wasting their time hence not to tax people who earn below P48,000.00 per choosing to do other things which can benefit them annum, and it will greatly relief poor people. better.

We also know that people who are often affected by As for the issue of the Director’s fee Minister, we accept poverty are our mothers and fathers who have children, that their fee should be taxed, it should be included or those in extended families. This means that when we in the final charge to tax, while knowing that ithas reduce this tax, they will be able to get the little that repercussions because we already have challenges they get, as it has been said that if you used to go to pertaining to boards, perhaps these challenges are going Shoprite to buy two things during month end, maybe to increase because I will know that at the end of the day, you will be able to buy three items, it would extend and I will have to pay tax out of that P2, 000.00, or P800.00, help poor people. This is the main issue which will also or anything that I will get for that board sitting, and this try to pick up the economy, because of this intervention will not attract people who are capable of volunteering or to reduce tax burden on low income earners. to work for this country because they would just be volunteering and nothing else, to manage our important Mr Speaker, we also know that it has been confirmed that corporations. This is one issue that I am unhappy about, small businesses are the backbone of countries across the as we are saying that it should be taxed, and because whole world, more especially in Africa. If we can have people forget it since it is a small amount of money to small businesses which are supported and are growing, declare when they do these tax returns, perhaps it should they would be the key to economic development. These be assessed first in order to see that these board members small businesses are owned by people who also benefit are elevated so that we can have quality board members. from this tax reduction because it would mean that as I am not saying that the current board members who are Honourable Manake has already said, food substances volunteering are not of good quality. Perhaps there are which we encourage…we also want Batswana back at more capable people out there who we can attract. That home to know that they should go back to our roots. is why I am saying that it is pleasing but we are moving 14 per cent Value Added Tax (VAT) does not apply on forward, we should see what to do about this tax in order the indigenous food substances which nurtured us, food to attract people who are more qualified, with Director’s substances which our grandfathers and grandmothers Fees which are better. consumed, some of them died recently because they consumed food which is not vastly processed, they You also spoke about Dividend Tax which will be 10 per consumed food good for their bodies. So I would like cent for residents and 15 per cent for non-residents. That to tell people to go back to our indigenous foods, so that is a welcome development. As you are aware Honourable the little that they will get from this tax reduction can Minister, that we always talk about leakages which make sustain them for a while. it difficult for tax collection here and there. Honourable Minister, we request that as we have increased, that tax Minister Matsheka, we hope that this 14 per cent tax should be collected. I know that it is difficult, we hide reduction will not be taken by the 14 per cent VAT. That our tax in Botswana. You only get the crumbs that only is why I agree with the Honourable Members who are those who are honest, be it Batswana or foreigners pay saying that Batswana should be taught, and that we that tax. We also told you that there are those who do

Hansard No 201 35 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

not pay these dividends. There are so many businesses HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Speaker, when in Botswana which do not pay that Dividend Tax. I do I was called, it was noisy and I did not hear. So, not know how we are going to manage to go around and you subsequently passed on and called Honourable check if people are paying this tax. Makwinja. I was only alerted by my colleagues. It is not like I was not in, it was noisy in Parliament. So I was th Even the Bill of the 8 Schedule to increase dividends here and I am available. Thank you. from 7.5 to 10 per cent is going to be very helpful because as I once said, we did not know that at this point we will MR SPEAKER: Okay sir, we will see where we can be faced with COVID-19 which came out of nowhere. slot you Honourable Minister. Let us go back to the line. Though we did not write in our manifesto about taxes, Apparently you were replaced by Honourable Makwinja this is a situation, like other Honourable Members said, and now we have to call the Opposition. that we did not anticipate. This increment will help us to close gaps and reduce this deficit. MR REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me also rise in this Parliament Mr Honourable Minister, the tax evasion at the borders, Speaker and debate this Income Tax Bill brought by though it is not here, needs to be attended urgently. Honourable Matsheka. Mr Speaker, I believe at the end, There is a lot of underhandedness that takes place at we should still keep paying tax. The main thing which borders. We should try our best to reinforce our borders worries me is an exorbitant tax because if we charge and have trucks thoroughly checked. A lot of money is excessively but when it comes to equitable distribution, not paid, we cannot mention people or trucks’ names. I it does not show what this tax is saying or doing, that is was saying… where my problem is.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: This is not trucks tax, Why am I saying this Mr Speaker? I am saying this we are talking about Income Tax for workers. because right now the way we allocate funds, maybe as an example, Economic Recovery and Transformation MS MAKWINJA: Yes, we are talking about tax. We Plan (ERTP), you will notice that the plan does very are talking about tax collection in general. I am talking little for the Western area. Not just Jwaneng-Mabutsane about other tax leakages which can help us to fight this Constituency only but the whole Western area; we pandemic. So, Honourable Ramogapi, if you have been are not part of this 14 billion. Some of us whose concealing your Dividends Tax, it is now time to go and constituencies start from here to Namibian border, pay that dividend to assist this country to go back to we are just spectators. We have come to see as other the state that we were in before 2019. I hope you now favourites are given developments through our taxes. understand me Ramogapi. The most painful thing is for the Minister to send me to tell the people they have denied developments, to pay Before Honourable Ramogapi interrupted me, I was tax so that he can develop the East. Sir, I will relay that moving towards conclusion. Minister, we appreciate message. I know that when it comes to developments, these other streams of revenue but what we are saying you side line them. I will relay that message and even is, we should go check and strengthen our systems so tell them that this time around I have failed to support that this tax can come to you. I know that you have done this Bill as it is because I cannot keep on tolerating this your calculations and you know what the impact of hatred and discrimination for the people in the West. these taxes will be in the economy and they will help us If the hatred went as far as Jwaneng-Mabutsane, maybe to beat the effects of COVID-19. I thank you so much I would understand. When you look at the whole of Minister, you have done a good job. Let us try to go Kgalagadi region, ERTP is not involved in any way. and collect these taxes. Motswana, as it was said, learn There is also nothing for the whole Kweneng West, about tax so that you may be able to benefit from this Gantsi District and Ngwaketse West. Now I am supposed P48 000 per annum that you will be getting for your to disseminate the message of paying taxes robustly. I personal use. With those words Minister, we thank and am going to tell them that you are saying they should support you. Thank you Mr Speaker. pay tax and those who are worthy of developments are “EXCHANGE OF SPEAKERSHIP” those in the East. Those who knew that there should be equal distribution of developments in Botswana are MR SPEAKER (MR PULE): Thank you Honourable no longer there. So, that is how I am going to pass this Member. Good afternoon Honourable Members. message.

36 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

Some said 27 000 Batswana are not going to pay tax since HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… they are the beneficiaries of P48 000. That is the truth, they will not pay tax at salaries. We must understand that MR SPEAKER: No, I do not allow anything … the Batswana that we are talking about are the ones who HONOURABLE MEMBER: VP was debating. were wailing bitterly like the biblical Rachel because of tax on rentals at Botswana Housing Corporation, at HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)... Samaphaletšhe. They have already moved out because MR SPEAKER: No, you usually do that, all of you they cannot afford tax on accommodation. When you usually do that. The truth is, this question is not a point are talking about fuel levy, you are referring to those of procedure as far as I am concerned, but correction. you exempted from the 48, 000 tax bracket. When you I think the Leader of the House should have stood talk about Value Added Tax (VAT), food and clothing, on a point of correction not procedure. My believe is you are referring to the 27, 000 group. So there is no that Honourable Member was debating the way he did way they can celebrate because you were merciful to but VP …(Inaudible)…that he has to be corrected … them because they are suffering from impacts of tax, (Inaudible)… what he says is not correct. You should Honourable Matsheka from Barolong. We should voice have stood on a point of correction Honourable Leader these issues because some of us are pained. Some can of the House. celebrate because their constituencies are going to be developed using our taxes. They are the ones celebrating MR REATILE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, and praising this Bill. the truth is I understand and know what I am talking about because Economic Recovery Transformation LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Plan did not address anything which was included in Procedure. Mr Speaker, I should write on the chat but NDP 11. It was a matter of holding a meeting between my computer is failing. Mr Speaker, I think this House acquaintances, those who decided to do some projects would be out of procedure if Members of Parliament for their favourite people. It has nothing to do with the are going to come to this House to divide the nation of NDP 11. We are entitled to debate issues in Parliament of Botswana by saying untruthful things. We do not have an Botswana, VP also has the right to debate as he pleases, Economic Transformation Plan which indicates that it is so he should not try to shut us up. We attend spiritual going to develop in the north and not at the western part churches so he should leave the spirit to lead us instead of this country. This issue has to be clarified Mr Speaker, of focusing my debate on him, I do not intend to do we cannot allow Botswana to be divided through this that. Mr Speaker, I want to highlight that those who sent bitter tribalism which everyone is aware of. We do not me also read the Economic Recovery Transformation think developments are distributed unfairly, rather, we Plan and NDP 11which VP is talking about. They also are following the National Development Plan 11, it is understand the Mid-Term Review. They are people who the one which informed the Economic Transformation are able to study, understand and hear about these things. Plan. I doubt there is an MP who can stand here and I do not tolerate it when I am talking about the distresses request us to take developments to a certain area, happening as a result of hatred against residents of the since we discussed the National Development Plan, West because I did not cause this hatred. The person Economic Transformation Plan and Mid-Term Review who wrote about these things when making Economic of the National Development Plan 11, and he was here Recovery Transformation Plan is the one who caused in Parliament... if there are some MPs from the north it together with their friends, wherever they were, not who agree with Honourable Reatile on the basis that people from the west. I am here to interpret what is they got developments while those in the south did not written in these documents. So you cannot say I am get any… we usually hear MPs from Kgalagadi, Gantsi making a mistake when I say I am going to inform them and Charles Hill enquiring about their projects, and about this. Whenever you meet in private, you should those questions are answered …(Inaudible)… know that there will always be someone who tell others HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)... things that were done behind closed doors.

MR TSOGWANE: …that thing Mr Speaker, he is out The important point here Mr Speaker is that, I was of procedure. telling the Minister that we have companies known for withholding tax, many of them end up…fly by night HONOURABLE MEMBER: Is that an elucidation? companies, after accumulating money so that they can

Hansard No 201 37 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

pay tax at Botswana Unified Revenue Service (BURS), can do those jobs to ensure that these companies do they run away with Government money as soon as not cheat us because they know that we are too lenient, possible. After this session, you should find a way to these companies generate revenue while Batswana ensure that BURS closes this loophole because it is a remain in poverty. That is the issue I want to highlight lot of money. People come to your offices and also go to ensure that we close that gap, we should stop money to Lobatse to report cases where companies that they laundering perpetrated by these companies, who come worked for varnished. They are nowhere to be found, here pretending to be legit entrepreneurs only to cheat they just varnished. This means such companies ran our country. That is the issue I want to emphasise that away with money that belong to Batswana or Botswana. before we increase tax for Batswana, we should have So I encourage you to address these issues on the basis addressed these issues of corrupt companies so that they that if this is the case, we are never going to improve do not rob us. Government revenue because crooks run away with it, Mr Speaker, I do not want to debate for a long time those who claim to be businessmen. For this reason, I today because this Bill is disheartening, there is no way request you to deal with these issues. I can support it, I love people but I want to say that. We In Clause 6 Honourable, you talked about the issue are only paying tax so that it can benefit a few favorites. of 15 per cent of each payment of interest of the We will continue to pay tax Honourable Matsheka but I commission and royalty, management of consultancy do not support this Bill. Thank you. fee made to non-residents and 10 per cent of each MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND payment of entertainment fee made to a non-resident. RURAL DEVELOPMENT (MR MOLALE): Thank The things is, many companies Honourable Matsheka, you Mr Speaker. Let me also stand to support Minister their consultancy is usually conducted by their sister Matsheka. In our culture we have folklores and stories. companies outside. They come to Botswana to do There is a story of one blind woman, everytime she consultancy. Thereafter when declaring profits, many was given food she will complain that they dished companies who conducted consultancy over charge little for her. One day her caretakers slaughtered a goat such that they go away with a lot of money. When ...(Interruptions)… they come to declare profits so that they can pay tax, you will find that their money has been taken away by MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, refrain from another company which operates in Botswana. This interrupting, you are out of order. When a speaker is on is because they conducted consultancy that so and the floor... so management is taking away this money. I can still outline them, when are you collecting their reports to HONOURABLE MEMBER: Where is the decorum in see the costly management and consultancies fee? They Parliament? take that money away so that when BURS ask them MR SPEAKER: No! No! You are not the one in charge to declare to see how much they made, they are going of Parliament Honourable Boko. So just let the speaker to end up getting peanuts since the money was taken go on please. overseas, whilst in the hands of one person. So we have to deal with this thing. Maybe we should empower our MR MOLALE: After they did that, they dished her local consultancies and ensure that they are accredited. an entire thigh of a goat, she touched it and screamed, This way, we will be in a position to reject foreign “Hey! If they dished an entire thigh of a goat for me it consultancies so that they can make use of local ones. means everyone else got a goat.” This is exactly what In this manner, we are going to be able to generate more is reflected in our debates. There are Members who money from tax. Right now we are dealing with crooks even if the Government is making tremendous efforts who deceitfully make profits from our country, those to introduce initiatives which can benefit Batswana they who run away with our money. A situation where they scream corruption. The reason I am saying this is because legally run away with our money. Since BURS cannot there have been complaints that the underprivileged are do anything about these issues, the Ministry of Trade paying tax and rich people are exempted. Right now should address them. You should prove to companies that a Bill is tabled which is going to mitigate the effects are said to have come here to conduct management and for those earning low salaries. The number which was consultancies, that we have empowered and established mentioned is more than 27 000 but we still rise in companies here. We have Deloitte and the big five who Parliament and complain that this is just a ploy. Other

38 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

Members said that there is corruption, we had reserves home carrying plastics full of groceries and claim that which have apparently disappeared in two years. Let there are no initiatives being undertaken, stop making me inform Motswana back home that Government has fun of the underprivileged Honourable. Continue to live four sources of revenue. The first source is minerals your lavish life and leave the underprivileged alone, and we are well aware how that went this year. The Government will assist them. Government is bringing second source is tourism, likewise we know how that hope to those people. Honourable Matsheka, I am very went. The third source is Customs and Excise through happy about your efforts. Contrary to what has been Southern African Customs Union (SACU). We know said, you have shown that you are now moving towards what happened with imports and exports. The fourth progressive tax which only high income earners pay source is tax through Botswana Unified Revenue tax and low income earners are exempted. That is very Service (BURS). So although things are difficult and good. this is the only source remaining, Honourable Matsheka went ahead and introduced an initiative which will Morolong, in conclusion I would like to offer two cushion those who were affected by the decline of the suggestions to enhance your efforts. Firstly, if you economy by exempting them from paying tax. If this do income tax returns, you should do it in a manner initiative is treated like ...(Interruption)... I do not know which will attract the tax payer and not to deter him. what they want us to do because I have listed the four For example; a few years ago when I visited Singapore, sources of Government revenue. When these sources of their Income Tax Form was 38 pages. revenue dried up, we took funds from our reserves. The When I got back there to do something again, one of reserves are meant for a rainy day like we are in this the things they told us is that, their Income Tax Return situation. Whatever you do, you are always accused. Form is half a page, and they have seen a 45 per cent The only request I have is for Honourable Members who understand Honourable Matsheka’s Bill to remain increase of people who are paying taxes because it was focused. Running the Government is not easy because very easy, to pay there and leave. We must do that here. whatever you do, you will have detractors but that is not Many people like Honourable Modukanele were saying, a problem. If there is a group of detractors who if you do including Members of Parliament, they indicated things on the left, they complain, if you turn to the right, that they do not know how tax return is done. Let us the same people complain, that is very amazing. simplify the tax system, especially paying tax and the Honourable Matsheka, let us focus. Batswana will tax return system, let us simplify it so that more people appreciate your efforts and will acknowledge that you get interested in paying. are making progress through the Economic Recovery Secondly, let us make it a point that we deal with rogues. and Transformation Plan (ERTP) to cushion them There are some places in Gaborone and Francistown, against the effects. where you are not given a till slip when you buy there, The other initiative that I am grateful for is that the in fact you will not pay with a Point of Sale (POS) majority of the people who will be cushioned against machine. Target those, put machines there so that when these effects are Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises I swipe at a POS machine, automatically BURS get (SMMEs) who everywhere in the world are the their dues immediately. It happens around the world, backbone of the economy. In other words, this initiative and we are capable of doing it here. This needs to be contributes to the growth of the economy through responded to quickly because the way we hear it, these SMMEs sector. That is a very good economic direction. people are associated with us whereas we are not the That is what we are thankful for. ones who told them not to pay. You should stand up to When we took funds from the reserves, targeting the indicate that they are not supposed to be associated with SMMEs, industries through the Industry Support us, and that they pay tax so that there are no leakages. Fund and others, there were complaints that we …(Inaudible)… is being paid, everyone should pay… are wasting money. Those who benefited from this (Inaudible)… Honourable Member. funding did not view it in that manner, they saw that indeed the Government is cushioning them and they With those remarks, I support you Morolong. Let us are appreciative. So if a Member like Honourable continue with what you are doing, it is a good thing and Ramogapi, since he is my friend; at the end of day goes will benefit Batswana. Thank you Mr Speaker.

Hansard No 201 39 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Member. We should also consider Honourable Minister that when Honourable Kgafela and will be followed by Honourable you increase the dividend tax, we know that there is a Mathoothe. Honourable Mmusi Kgafela? tax on profit and when you increase the tax on dividends people will soon not pay dividends properly when they HONOURABLE MEMBER: Did you not see the list try to audit, because they are now afraid of paying high Mr Speaker, I have long raised my hand. taxes twice. This dividend tax if I am not wrong, I stand HONOURABLE MEMBER: You may be mixing to be corrected, is also paid by people who bought shares them up Mr Speaker; I am the one who has long raised at Botswana Stock Exchange (BSE), and mostly they my hand. are Batswana. When these companies pay them their dividends, they also pay tax, so if you are increasing MR SPEAKER: Wait first and let me run the House, it now, it will have a financial burden on those people please. who have bought shares as their income will go down. The other thing is that, in regards to the economy of HONOURABLE MEMBER: He likes Honourable Botswana, we compete for businesses. We should Mmusi Kgafela since he is his Kgosi. He cannot resist be aware of our tax to try and manage so that these calling him, just pay attention. businesses do not end up considering other countries. HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Laughter!)… We know that in most countries there is a tax on profits, and the tax on dividends becomes a zero. It becomes a HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… with a competition for businesses, and those that are here may shoe, keep quiet. end up closing and going to other countries because their dividend tax is low or nothing is being paid. Those HONOURABLE MEMBER: Do not forget me are the things I am saying we should be aware of, look Honourable Speaker! into them and make analysis, but I believe you have MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmusi Kgafela. structured them properly. Honourable Mmusi Kgafela? Your system is not When I look at how you are doing your financial re- working, we are moving to the next member. Let us take engineering, you try to ensure that funds get into the Honourable Kagiso Mmusi. hands of Batswana and the economy of Botswana, MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND so that it can assist especially in your Development SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Speaker. Budget. We should see the developments of the country Let me take this opportunity to thank you for the Income grow. Let me just remind Honourable Member that, Tax Bill that has been put before us by Honourable maybe we should begin to aggressively identity other Minister Matsheka. Let me start by thanking Honourable ways of marketing our minerals. In the past, our tax Member and say, the money that has been taxed monthly used to be high, and it went down because we generated has been increased from P3, 000 to now be P4, 000. A a lot of income with diamonds. So, since we can see thousand Pula will make a very big difference, as you that we are not generating a lot of income, we should have increased. The constituency I am representing of start identifying other ways which is what is allowed, Gabane-Mmankgodi has many people who work in but make sure that we have done enough to ensure that small businesses; shops, filling stations, you will find our minerals are taken to the market in different ways. that the salaries they earn are around P3, 000, and they If you look at our main minerals being diamonds, we will be able to get something if you have increased. I have been having one partner or we have been selling thank you for considering us at the rural areas, our them in one way only. Yes, I know in the last maybe 10 people will realise that at least there is a closure of gap years, I stand to be corrected, Diamond Trading Centre on the recent 14 per cent of Value Added Tax (VAT). (DTC) was established to try and open up the market to different buyers, who will then purchase for themselves. You are doing what is called financial re-engineering As Botswana, we should identify other avenues, where with these Bills. You are trying to fix things or diversify we can sell our minerals and can generate income them. One thing you have put before us is to try and directly to us. I believe that if we can be very aggressive increase the dividend tax, so that Batswana can pay 10 and do that, we can be able to get more income quickly per cent of dividends and foreigners 15 per cent. That is because revenue income of diamonds is higher than the a good thing that we appreciate. tax we get, especially looking at our revenue economy

40 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

and the income we generate, which is low. If we focus have a provision in the Constitution which allows the a lot on how we can sell all our minerals and open up President to elect outside Members of Parliament that Honourable Member, maybe we can see a much bigger we have. This is one of the things which can improve and quicker impact which will make all people happy. the Ministry of Finance. These are some of the things All Batswana should be happy and we could be able which I said looking at the load of work that he has, you to attract major investors because our tax rates will be will wonder if he is going to manage all of it on his own. much lower. Anyway, it is up to him to find a way to account for this issue, it is fine if he can manage to deal with it. I was With those remarks, I support you. It is very pleasing simply advising them to view this issue in this manner to see such re-engineering being done financially in a in future because we are expecting quite a lot from him. country. It shows our seriousness, that we are mapping We are looking up to him because if he fails to collect tax a way forward on how to develop our country. I do not tomorrow, where others evade it, he will have to account wish to take long because others have already shared the for that. This is because he is expected to ensure that he points I wanted to debate Mr Speaker. With those words, collects tax instead of letting people to evade it. So we thank you Mr Speaker and Honourable Minister, I wish will expect him to account for that because he knows you well. I thank you. what to do to ensure that he collects reasonable amount MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mathoothe, you will of tax. These are some of the things we need to consider be followed by Honourable Mmusi Kgafela and in future; we were considering that his precedes were Honourable Brooks. not representing any constituency. So we might blame him on the basis that he has failed only to find that this MR MATHOOTHE (SEROWE NORTH): Thank you is the reason why he failed. I have great expectation Mr Speaker. Let me also respond to the Bill presented that in future when dealing with Constitutional Review, before us. Let me highlight that this is an important Bill. members of BDP will consider these issues because for Before debating it, I must consider that Honourable a long time, we believed that Ministers should perform, Dr Matsheka is currently dealing with a lot of work. that we should not give them a lot of work especially I am saying this because Honourable Dr Matsheka’s Ministry of Finance. predecessors were Specially Elected Ministers who solely focussed on their responsibility in finance Moving on to the Bill, like I mentioned, it is very since they were not representing any constituency. important to ensure that threshold of workers move If you consider his current responsibilities; his roles from P36,000 to P48,000. It is really important to at Ministry of Finance and at the constituency where do that. When doing these amendments, we should he has to recover the economy, ensure that revenue consider what was indicated in the budget speech, that collection increases, start collecting taxes, projects like there are loopholes in our tax collection process. Since leather park, meat regulator, Public Procurement and we are introducing new levies, including Income Tax, Asset Disposal Board (PPADB) Act review, are they not are we really going to manage to collect the remaining an indication that he has a lot of work to deal with? tax accordingly? When coming up with this Bill, we should have some clauses which are going to govern What I think; since we are going to review the you. This should be done so that we do not end up in Constitution like Members of Botswana Democratic a situation where those with an annual income of P48, Party (BDP) mentioned, it is quite important for 000 have a loophole where they behave as if they do not Government to consider appointment of Cabinet outside generate that amount but less than that annually. If they elected Members of Parliament. This way, it is going do that, it means we are not going to manage to collect to create opportunity for Minister of Finance to address tax. They are some of the regulations or policies which issues of utmost importance to the country during we should put in place to govern us when talking about difficult times. If you compare Ministry of Finance and tax collection. Economic Development with other ministries, all of them depend on the Ministry of Finance, including the If you consider some of our sectors or some proposals entire country. Looking at the challenges that we have which he talked about like Honourable Molale was in relation to the transformations which Honourable Dr talking about Point of Sale machines, there are big Matsheka is intending to bring about, one may wonder companies in Gaborone which for example, Batswana if they are going to be achieved. In future, we should end up buying from furniture shops through hire

Hansard No 201 41 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

purchase simply because they get lower salaries. In some it is because of the slip of the tongue. I would like to instances, they fail to pay and these furniture shops then highlight two things which can compel someone to tell engage some companies to collect those debts and some him that he has tried. What I want to say here is that, tax of these big companies accept cash payment only, big has always been there even from way back, people were companies! Right here in Gaborone. If you consider the taxed. That is why some people’s years do not match up, number of these shops who collect these debts all over it is because they were avoiding taxes which were there the country, shops which only accept cash payment, I am at that time. Some are big and others are small because talking about thousands, not a small amount of money. they were trying to dodge tax. They are some of the companies which we should put strategies in place to ensure that they pay tax. If you can Moving on to the presentation laid before us today, I go to Oriental Plaza, they are selling goods there and the would like to thank and applaud Minister Matsheka. Chinese who are in charge of business there, you will Although it is difficult, he is trying to fight to take find that none of them drive a car which cost less than Botswana out of recession. We have to appreciate that a million. You will find that Batswana buy their goods he was bold enough to stand up and take Batswana out there while others travel from as far as Lesotho to buy of P3, 000.00, to P4, 000.00, that is where tax is going to clothes there. Unfortunately, they give receipts which apply. It is one of the things that I would like to stand up cannot be used to collect tax from them. That is where and say, it is not enough Honourable Member, looking Batswana lose money. If you go there, they drive cars at the reduction you made or the bracket which you which do not cost less than a million, they cost millions. expanded towards. I am saying this looking at the fact That is how we lose money. So you should put some that a Constituency like Kgalagadi, which is lagging far strategies in place so that we can collect that money. For behind when it comes to developments, a constituency this to happen, we should appoint someone responsible that is greatly challenged with unemployment and for monitoring the Ministry of Finance. poverty, most of the people at that constituency earn P36, 000.00 per annum which has just been highlighted Mr Speaker, I wanted to briefly comment as much. here. I do not want to praise you too much. I just want Thank you. to give him a smile for he has tried Mr Speaker. We are looking at how things are expensive at Kgalagadi. We MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Member. have been dealing with the challenge that people from Honourable Kgafela! Bokspits, Struizendam, Hereford, Bray, Werda, Tsabong ...Silence... and Maleshe earn this P3, 000.00 or they fall within the MR SPEAKER: You are not audible Honourable P36, 000.00 bracket. At the same time, they have to Kgafela. Honourable Kgafela, there is a problem that assist their families, as breadwinners. side, I think you are not following... Minster, you have tried but you should continue to ...Silence... look ahead. When you look at the increment which we introduced recently, Minister Moagi is increasing MR SPEAKER: Can I call upon Honourable Brooks electricity tariffs for the second time consecutively, while you are still fixing your system. 22 per cent and 3 per cent, and we also increased tax from 12 per cent to 14 per cent, this basically means MR BROOKS (KGALAGADI SOUTH): Thank that we are still going backwards. We are trying to assist you Mr Speaker. Good afternoon sir, good afternoon people and on the other hand we are being punitive. Honourable Members of Parliament. Mr Speaker, let Minister, I want you to assess this issue going forward. me debate the Bill that was presented this afternoon by You can increase slightly to make things easier taking a great Morolong, Honourable Dr Matsheka. I do not into consideration how much a person who earns P4, know if we pronounce his name accordingly especially 000.00 would be left with after buying from a shop in that Honourable Molale was correcting it. Anyway, Tsabong or Bokspits, that is after you tax him or her. Barolong will bear with us. These are the challenges Mr Speaker. We are talking HONOURABLE MEMBER: Matsheka! about constituencies which do not have roads, network and a conducive environment which can give Batswana MR BROOKS: Yes sir, you will bear with us if we dignity or make them feel like they live in a dignified mispronounce it since we are not throwing insults but environment. This situation compels one to feel like he

42 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

or she is working in a stressful environment which is silence us yet we would be talking about the challenges cursed and full of challenges. of people who sent us here to form part of government. In that way, I plead that we should be allowed to talk Mr Speaker, Honourable Members talked about tax about people’s feelings. If we are not out of order and if which can be beneficial. As much as we are talking we do not offend anyone, we should be allowed to talk about the Income Tax (Amendment) Bill in which we about the feelings of people who sent us here. are only addressing that particular Clause which tries to move from P36, 000.00 to P48, 000.00, we are focusing Mr Speaker, I stand here to say that Honourable on it too much. We should also try and see if there are Matsheka should pay close attention. Our children who any other ways which can assist us to generate income. work in shops are in trouble. I want to shift slightly from Mr Speaker, when you look at a constituency like the topic but still addressing the issue of tax. When we Kgalagadi, borders are closed. We are now on the 15th talk about tax, how many operating shops in Tsabong month. Borders should be opened where BURS used to provide swiping services? Only big shops have swiping be. When Batswana arrive with purchases from outside, machines. Most of the small shops in Tsabong do not they should go there and be taxed, as a way to generate provide swiping services. Even the receipts that you get income. Those who come from South Africa crossing there, you cannot go and present it when you do your tax over to Namibia should also be taxed different taxes. returns. We have to advise Minister Matsheka without They would even fuel their vehicles, as we recently hesitating, we should tell him that he should stand up increased fuel prices. This can generate income. and come up with ways of collecting taxes because he is losing money in different ways. Morolong, you should I am frustrated that for the past 13 months or so, I see how you can collect government revenue. have been pushing or pleading that our borders should be opened. I was not saying this so that there can be The other thing is that like Honourable Molale was movement of people. I was looking at the fact that one saying, when we do this tax return process, we should day when we talk about tax, we would look at these not queue for a long time only to fill a form which has borders where we could be taxing people. When one five pages Mr Speaker. Why can we not be quick since is a Member of Parliament, these things would compel our Identity Documents (IDs) are there? If we do that, him or her to feel insubstantial representing a wide we would have simplified things for business people constituency, a constituency which when you try to talk who want to be honest in paying their tax returns. If about, there is no one to listen to you. they owe, they will manage to pay quickly and go back to running their businesses. Not many wish to queue in I would like to add on to what Honourable Manake was lines for two to three days for those returns Mr Speaker. saying. I agree with her when she says that we should Mr Speaker, I do not want to be long. Honourable keep an eye on the available agricultural products. I am Minister of Finance and Economic Development, look looking at Kgalagadi South constituency; 90 per cent outside the box to see what can be done so that we can of people in Kgalagadi depend on agriculture in the help you collect money for Botswana so that we do not sense that, some grow maize, watermelon and they do end up with a collapsed economy and then tomorrow we all these things. Some produce milk and other things. accuse you of all these things. We do all these things looking at the fact that in doing their businesses, we are talking about fuel, energy and In terms of roads Mr Speaker, we have been querying other different things. When we increase some taxes, we that tax needs to be paid. For example, when Motswana should keep an eye on them so that it can go down. crosses to Namibia, he or she is charged a lot of money. Honourable Motsamai can vouch for me. We are Mr Speaker, we should not hide behind our fingers. We charged a lot of money at Mamuno but when you arrive should be allowed to state facts when we talk about our in Botswana, you are told to pay P138 or P62, depending respective Constituencies. Some Honourable Members on the size of your vehicle. The same car that you pay only know the big villages of our constituencies, they P62 in Botswana, when you get to South Africa you are do not the remote areas where we come from. That is not going to pay less than P262 Mr Speaker. We must try why when we become saddened upon talking about to find different ways by which we can generate income. our Constituencies, it always appears as if we are somehow tarnishing someone’s image. Sometimes Mr Speaker, I cannot say more than that, except that some Honourable Members disturb our debates trying to we need to improve our BURS system and simplify it.

Hansard No 201 43 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

Let us open borders at Bokspits/Tsabong so that people MR SPEAKER: No, I did not see you Honourable can come in to buy goods and pay tax to our coffers. Keorapetse, to be honest. I was looking at the list very We must do all that we can; mines and relevant markets carefully; you did not appear on the list. must be opened in rural areas so that people can pay tax. I do not want to say what other Honourable Members HONOURABLE MEMBER: Do I appear? said though I agree with them that if things were done MR SPEAKER: Yes, you appear on the list Honourable this way, we could manage to achieve them and even Member. Honourable Mmolotsi, you know that… manage to cushion the bad effects that are experienced (Inaudible)… by our country. HONOURABLE MEMBER: They have bewitched I am grateful to hear that there is someone who produces me Honourable Speaker. donkey milk and exports it to America because that is what we are looking for, to be able to have tax paid to MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmusi Kgafela, are you Botswana. If others could be allowed to do that and we there? If not, I am calling Honourable Majaga. remove the red tape that is limiting Batswana when it …Silence… comes to the trade side, Mr Speaker, you will see that we will be able to collect a lot of money. That is true MR SPEAKER: Honourable Keorapetse, you just sir. Let us simplify our income generation processes in appeared now. Honourable Mmusi Kgafela does not Botswana. All of us here in Parliament, would appreciate appear, so I am calling Honourable Majaga. that. I swear we will still be here in Parliament because Batswana would have sent us. Thank you Mr Speaker. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS (MR SEGOKGO): On a MR KEORAPETSE: On a point of procedure. Mr point of procedure. Mr Speaker, I was also trying to Speaker, it seems my system is malfunctioning because understand something because I tried to find out and I looking at the list, I was to come before Honourable understand that we do not have a list. So, I had raised Mathoothe on the side of Opposition. So, I am not sure my hand up for long but now I hear you talking about a if I appear that side because it once logged me out and I list. Are you checking our hands or you are looking at managed to log in again? the list?

MR SPEAKER: Well, I did not see your name. I was MR SPEAKER: I am looking at the hands, there are just following the list that I have here and I have not some who come before you on the Botswana Democratic skipped. I called you out according to your list. Party side.

Honourable Kgafela, can you take the floor? MR SEGOKGO: Oh, but it has been a while since I…

MR MOSWAANE: On a point of procedure. Mr MR SPEAKER: Everyone is going to get a chance to Speaker, please give me a chance. Other Honourable debate. So give me a chance to run...(Interruption)… Members have spoken 100 times, it will be my first time Honourable Majaga. sir. I tried this side but my system is malfunctioning. …Silence… MR SPEAKER: I can see you, you are on the line up. MR SPEAKER: If Honourable Majaga is not in, I MR MOSWAANE: Okay sir. Thank you. am calling Lemogang Kwape, and will be followed by Honourable Ramogapi. MR KEORAPETSE: On a point of procedure. Mr Speaker, I have been enquiring from the Opposition MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS Whip, he is saying we did not give you any list. AND COOPERATION (DR KWAPE): Thank you Mr Speaker. I was also confused because I did not MR SPEAKER: Maybe it is in the virtual, but your understand how the list was working. I will not be long, name does not appear here. I just wanted to support Honourable Matsheka’s Bill. It MR KEORAPETSE: Yes, that is why I am saying the is coming at a relevant time looking at the challenges system was malfunctioning. I was supposed to come that we are facing. As we know, caution minimises loss, before Honourable Mathoothe on the list. Honourable Members talked about increased taxes.

44 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

There is another one where those who do not earn much tax. It looks insignificant but if you consider a broader have been exempted from tax and we appreciate that. picture where we improve the economy and lives of people, these things make a great difference. The truth Mr Speaker, I am talking about that one though I may is, we are not shaping the economy for ourselves but derail a bit, pardon me. Last time when we were debating for our future generations. I will not take long; a time Value Added Tax, we made requests that we need to look has come Minister Matsheka for you to increase tax into some things that they may be exempted from tax, for those who managed to make some profits during just as we are encouraging people to use solar energy to this pandemic. Their condition is not similar to those reduce to tax. I was just mentioning that in passing Mr who make enough to put food on their table. Let me Speaker. not take long because there are many of us, let me give Increasing the tax bracket for dividends is also a Honourable Segokgo the opportunity to debate. welcome development. These are the ones making a lot MR SPEAKER: Honourable Kwape, you are going to of money and when the funds in the coffers dwindles, cause a conflict between me and Honourable Segokgo if those who managed to make more can then take it he is not next in the list. It is like now you are running there. I want to emphasise that I appreciate Honourable the House. Matsheka for the way he has managed to steer this ship against the tumultuous waves and ensure that we have MR MOSWAANE (FRANCISTOWN WEST): funds to run this financial year. Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me take this opportunity…

Let me emphasise that these are the things that we used MR MOATLHODI: Procedure. I encourage us as MPs to talk about Honourable Members, that the money to respect you. We should refrain from telling you the we have in our reserves was reserved for times like name of the next speaker. You are our only leader and no these. I believe and trust Honourable Matsheka that if one else. Put your foot down Mr Speaker. things can go back to normal, where we achieve what MR SPEAKER: Thank you very much P.P.P, I almost we intended to do like you mentioned in the Economic kicked him out. Transformation and Recovery Plan (ETRP), you are going to come here and give us an update that we have MR MOSWAANE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I thank God recovered, that now is the time to consider to do other and also appreciate you for giving me the opportunity things. This is where we will be able to reduce some to address Parliament of Botswana sir. There are many taxes which we had increased. If you consider our issues Mr Speaker, many complaints and concerns but income generation process, taxes are some of the things the important thing at the end of the day is to focus used by Government to generate income. I appreciate on the debate which Dr Matsheka presented before the Minister and his colleagues for exempting those Parliament. I believe the important thing to do right who get low salaries from paying tax. We appreciate this now is to consider the poor who are greatly suffering. I gesture and I emphasise the need to assess these things, believe these issues were raised after MPs complained especially things used to improve the economy. about them in the past including last time when debating the budget. These complaints indicated that we are not I was talking about the issue of electricity, those who doing things accordingly on the side of poor people, the are interested in connecting solar to their boreholes, we nation is crying and it is like we are increasing poverty should consider to assess these things so that we can by introducing many taxes. I believe this alone is an reduce taxes on them. Those who do not wish to connect indication that we are united as a Parliament, that we electricity from the grid but to use solar, we should listen to each other and agree on some things which can assess these things. Those who are interested in buying relieve a Motswana from impacts of the pandemic. blocks to mould pots which can be used for biogas gas generation and other projects. We should consider to The major point which I am driving at is that the first assess things from the list which Minister Matsheka budget speech by Honourable Matsheka, he knows that talked about, that some things are going to be exempted I complained much about loopholes which Botswana from tax. has in terms of tax collection. As such, I want him to pay attention to my debate. You should not take three months When buying trees to improve the condition of the before taking action against foreign investors who environment, these things should be exempted from have licenses Dr Matsheka, those who run businesses

Hansard No 201 45 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

in malls in towns like Gaborone, Francistown, Selebi thank you sir. It is therefore easy to see that this person Phikwe, all our towns including villages, those who is celebrating because they took our money and they operate like tuck shops right now. They do not want are never going to pay tax sir. In the past during Dr Ian payments done through bank swiping machine, to give Khama Seretse Khama’ reign when Mr Isaac Kgosi receipts and they do not have the intention to do that. It was leading Directorate of Intelligence and Security has been 10 years that these people have been here and (DIS), these people were asked to return home as an this shows that they left their home countries because indication that their tax returns are dangerous to our they do not want to pay tax. According to the procedure country. Today, they are behaving like they are going from their home countries, they are not supposed to pay to stay here or someone promised them something, tax to a satanist Government. That is what they call us as they are maximising their opportunities. These things per their faith. So we should not allow them to do that. Dr Matsheka, ensure that you seriously address these The President once mentioned that these wealthy people foreigners, thereafter, you can now address Batswana are making a lot of money in Botswana, that they were since you seem to fear them right now. I want you to very poor when they got here, I am sorry to say this, closely deal with this issue. I do not want to debate I am just quoting the President the way he referenced on this issue for long because my main argument is to them. Sir, these people do not want to pay tax at all. I ensure that tax is collected, as a politician you do not told you that you and the Commissioner of Botswana have much power, in Government money talks. So we Unified Revenue Service are free to invite me to your should all be prepared for the worst, it is not good to office, to give you guidance as well as help you in terms collect tax from people. However, this is for their own of how to manage these things. You already know that benefit in future. Honourable Minister, I would like and I believe you are not taking action against these to point out that indeed there were tremendous efforts people Dr Matsheka because whenever political parties made in terms of assisting people but let us enforce strict want to go for campaigns, they are in the forefront of rules in collecting tax from foreign companies. On the funding every political party. So this thing does not give till, there is no Motswana; it is the managing director`s them the right to pay very small amount for tax and run nephew/niece. These are wrong practices, one might away with huge sums of money like P10 million. No ask, how are they creating employment if they only Honourable Members, if that is the case, let us come hire cleaners and shelf packers and they are the ones up with political party funding so that we can approach collecting their own revenue. These people are working them boldly to pay our money instead of providing strategically to rob our country. I do not want to mention political party funding as an excuse where they are in names but you know them, we once complained about the forefront. You will find them behaving as if they them. They already own chain of malls at Francistown have membership, they also attend congresses even called Oriental Plaza which they are failing to launch though they do not have Omang. They do this knowing because they do not want anyone else at their mall. I am that this way, they are closer to the current leaders of giving an example about those foreigners but there are this country and therefore, they are going to continue more who are taking advantage…(Inaudible)… to avoid paying tax. Let us pay attention to this thing, I do not want to mention names nor their skin colors Therefore, I do not want to be long in today’s debate, Dr Matsheka. We gave specialised dealers licenses to Honourable Minister continue to collect revenue because these people and they opened many shops here which we want developments, vaccines and we want our plans sell furniture, electronics and other things, these people concerning COVID-19 to be realised. In conclusion of are making a lot of money in Botswana and they do not my debate I want to say, Dr Matsheka, I personally know want to pay tax. you and I trust you Honourable, we worked together while I was a Mayor of the city of Francistown and Let us follow these people; they are at the top of our you were the Director of Letshego. So please address list when we talk about those who exploit workers, they these reports which keep cropping about corruption only pay them P1, 200 and that is it. They do not offer because they are common in Government and they use any employment. contracts whatsoever; they only sign their friendship connections. I do not want to dwell too one month contracts. These things indicate that indeed much on to it because I do not want to be implicated but these people do not have any intention to stay here, they issues of corruption cause conflicts which might lead only came to mercilessly make a lot of money. When to physical fights and use of traditional medicine to kill you pay in their tills, none of them will smile or say each other. Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you.

46 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Member. I also want to add that if we exempt low income earners from paying tax, we are now going to increase what MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND we call their disposable income and in so doing who is COMMUNICATIONS (MR SEGOKGO): Thank going to benefit. In other words, I believe those who will you Mr Speaker. I also wish to… be spending disposable income, high income earners HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... and the wealthy are going to end up benefitting. That is why I am raising this point, I strongly believe we MR SEGOKGO: No, wait Honourable Molao, allow should review and compare if paying tax goes hand in me to debate, he will give you the floor later. Mr hand with the revenue generated in the economy…I am Speaker, I was still expressing my gratitude. I rise to not saying this because I believe it will reduce the gap support the Minister in his Income Tax Bill. Seeing between the rich and poor, I believe that reducing that Honourable Moswaane just reminded me to say to him; gap will enable the low and middle income earners to I am thankful that he joined us in Parliament, he was have enough money to invest. constantly in our prayers and may God continue to comfort and bless him. My greatest wish is to decrease what seems like tax to those in the bottom and middle, especially their The main topic is the one tabled by Minister Matsheka, income tax. They are the ones that also assist us as the which I believe we will all support. I was quite surprised Government because they pay school fees at schools and that some Members did not support it. The reason I pay for the health services of these students and things am saying this is a crucial topic is because Minister like that. The desire was to give them the opportunity to Matsheka is seeking to increase the income tax threshold assist us build the economy; to create new businesses from annual income of P36 000 to P48 000 which in my and expand them. That is the reason I am talking about view we should collectively support. Minister Matsheka that, I think we should see how those at the top, those in also mentioned that he will be introducing 10 per cent the middle and those at the bottom are affected by this and 15 per cent tax respectively to Director’s fees, an kind of tax. initiative I am very thankful for. The reason I am saying this Bill which seeks to exempt low income earners Even though I support you, I have to say that another from tax is crucial is because I just remembered there thing that I expect to be consequences of reducing this is another one which is even more crucial than this one. tax in the constituency I reside in, as we know that it There is a question I usually ponder on and also come has a lot of workers, those in the bottom and those in up with an answer. I will try to explain. The question is, the middle are the ones who are working, particularly are we taxing those who are wealthy fairly if they have in places like Gaborone and other places. I believe this to pay tax according to their fair share in the economy? reduction will reduce the burden, especially for those I believe that we have to review this. I know that tax is at the bottom as I was saying that it gives them the determined by a number of factors; the number of high opportunity not to be negatively affected by tax so that income earners, the income bracket and so on. it can be a bit easier for those who are renting houses.

Furthermore, tax is calculated in such a manner that the The other thing that I want to commend the Minister higher you earn, the more tax you pay. I divided it into on is that, sometimes I believe that the things he brings two as an attempt to simplify it as it reflects on the tax here as changes, especially the changes of tax, not only table, I believe that if we can tax people whose annual looking at the income, but also looking at the issue of income is over P500 000 to a million then compare consumption as we were talking about things like Value them with low income earners, they are taxed using Added Tax, corporate tax and other taxes. I believe a different scale ...(Inaudible)… I believe we should that somehow we responded late because the income maintain the previous scale of taxing those who earn that we have been getting from diamonds and tourism an income of over a million with 25 per cent. I believe was increasing and it seemed like we did not need to they have income. I am not sure, I think maybe we increase the tax. That is why when taxes were increased, should pay attention to investors, if we increase the tax and I understand that it was increased at a rate that still scale, perhaps it might deter them and they will look for puts us below many countries. I saw it as a good thing greener pastures elsewhere. However, I do not want to in regards to those taxes because I often wondered that, say anything, I am not a tax expert but it is my general sometimes when we talk about tax and I listen to other view. Honourable Members, if we were getting high income

Hansard No 201 47 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

from diamonds and tourism to an extent that maybe we evident that that money is used for things that can benefit would not need to tax people, would we have decided them. We can be able to build schools, their children not to tax them? My belief is that, it is necessary for us should be able to attend schools that are spacious, we to be used to paying tax all the time. should construct roads so that people can use roads and we should provide people with water and electricity What I request is that, BURS should ensure that they do wherever they are. The fact of the matter is that there everything they can especially in ensuring that the way is no one who is happy about their tax. If there is a way they collect their taxes can reduce the number of those people can evade tax, they will use that way. So it is who want to evade taxes. important that as we continue to do this, we improve I am still getting back to the issue I was talking about the way we collect tax. Even people who are managing that, those at the top are the ones who know ways they taxes should be people who are responsible in a way can reduce their tax since they can use their benefits in that, when people pay taxes they will have hope that a way that they end up paying low taxes. They are the their taxes will be used for development projects that ones I believe that as we continue to bring changes on will benefit their lives. taxes, we should ensure that they pay their share of tax. It is also important that people are educated so that they Minister, before I conclude, when you talked on the understand the relationship between paying tax and the news you emphasised that the changes we brought are services they get. We should be able to explain to people going to broaden the tax base. I will still make a request to know that, right now as they go to the clinics and I always make that, we should always monitor digital they do not pay anything but only P2, that is because taxes or let me say; tax on goods that not tangible. of their taxes as they are the ones that are used to buy They are goods that come through the internet. They go medicines and pay the workers who take care of them. through the fibre cables that we are setting up in this We should be able to explain this to people so that they country. These goods are bought from outside countries. can understand this situation. That is what assist us so We have assisted them with the market and that the that people can pay taxes freely knowing that they get market they can reach does not require them to pay a lot something in return. of money. I wish that we can cooperate to see how we I appreciate that as we are in a crisis, you found it can collect this kind of tax. That is one way that we will necessary to increase income tax for people who earn still be broadening the tax base. P36, 000 up to P48, 000. That group is going to save so That is all I had to say Minister. Let me support you they will be able to have some money which they can in your request and I am thankful for that request. You use to buy at the shops which can circulate within the have continued to ensure that we bring changes on how economy and boost it. They should not be negatively we can change the way we collect our taxes. Thank you affected by the pandemic we are facing. This shows that Mr Speaker. indeed times are hard, we need to collect a lot of tax in order to fund public expenditures, but at the same time MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Member. we should bear in mind that low income earners should Honourable Members, let me request something here. be relieved. A Government that is compassionate acts in I request that when you are on the queue, you should this manner. We have to undertake this more especially refrain from saying, ‘call me also.’ If you ever do that, as leaders who recently passed your budget which I am going to skip you. Honourable Molao is the next encompassed these clauses we are discussing now. but it seems like I am giving him the floor because he Sometimes one is taken aback by comments of some complained and it is not okay. Honourable Molao and Honourable Members who we collectively passed the will be followed by Honourable Motsamai. budget with all these aspects but when you table a Bill to implement the aspects encompassed in that budget MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR they say they do not support this Bill but do not say MOLAO): Thank you Mr Speaker for giving me that the budget which was passed should be withdrawn the floor. I will be brief and support this issue. Iwas so that they can delete those aspects. One cannot help still delayed by Honourable Mmolotsi arguing about to wonder on this level of hypocrisy and the goal they agricultural issues. Let me say that when taxes are paid, wish to achieve because we unanimously passed the it is important for confidence, and as Government we budget. We voted and passed it embedding all these should show by our works that when people pay tax it is

48 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

clauses. What you tabled here today was for us to pass their country. That is the point I relayed at the beginning a Bill which is going to drive what one might refer to of my debate that it is important to teach people about as implementation of the budget we recently discussed the tax trail and what they benefit from it. I explained and passed. If we support the budget and the clauses it that free Health services are a result of the tax paid by is supposed to implement but we now say we do not Batswana whether they are at Gudigwa, Mathangwane, support, you wonder what our intentions are. If we are Jamataka and Mohembo. That is why they can access free in Parliament are we just saying things as a way to boast health care without being expected to pay as it is done and impress people that my Member of Parliament is at other countries. That is why electricity is connected at refuting for me to be charged tax whereas we passed their villages and Shakawe hospital was constructed. We the budget which encompassed this tax? You are only should encourage Batswana that even though paying tax tabling this Bill to drive implementation. Sometimes is not nice, we should do it so that the essential services the reason people become less determined to pay tax is can be delivered to us. We are living during times where due to the statements said by us as leaders, we are not the economy is low due to COVID-19, diamond market building confidence in people so that they pay tax. We has plummeted and tourism also took a knock. So have to bear in mind that the things we say have great where can we source money besides sourcing it from influence in people’s perceptions… us Batswana in order to sustain ourselves and boost our economy then circulate it. That is the most important MR KAPINGA: Procedure. Mr Speaker, is Honourable thing Minister, BURS should go out there and collect Molao suggesting that the budget was passed tax from Batswana and set annual targets. It is also our unanimously but he forgets that there are some who did duty as Members of Parliament and to account to the tax not support it. If he allude that they have no right to payers how that money was spent. debate against it, does he forget that there are some who do not support this budget? Honourable Members, have talked a lot about some foreign business owners who have no clear record of MR SPEAKER: No, that is not procedure Honourable paying tax, or if they do, it is the accurate tax. It is Kapinga. significant to impose strict regulations when collecting MR MOLAO: Yes, Mr Speaker, what else is new? That tax from these people so that we can be able to develop is what I explained here that we passed the national our country. If we become lenient and they save their budget unanimously because we want developments profits rather than paying tax in our country, it might at our constituencies. At Honourable Kapinga’s make Batswana in general to complain a lot when it constituency they are complaining a lot about poor road comes to paying tax. It is important to impose strict conditions. Where can we source funds to develop roads regulations on these foreign business owners who are if we do not collect tax? If you keep saying, “we want surrounded by a lot of complaints and monitor their roads, people of Okavango are complaining because financial ctivitiesa so that they can pay the accurate tax. they want roads,” then we decide to collect taxes in That is what I wanted to raise, I support the Bill tabled order to construct roads at Okavango which people are before us which its aim is to implement what we complaining about …(Interruption)… discussed in the budget that we passed. Those are my arguments, this is implementation regarding what we HONOURABLE MEMBER: Is that not hypocrisy? passed, besides withdrawing the budget to delete these clauses. MR MOLAO: …then you change and say, “no, do not collect taxes.” In other words you are saying, “do not Let us educate Batswana on the importance of tax. Also construct roads at Okavango.” That is the hypocritical as the Government, we should stand up and do a sterling statement I am talking about …(Interruption)… and stunning job so that people can admit that it is true their tax goes to services that benefit them. There should HONOURABLE MEMBER: You never had a budget be no doubt that their money is being wasted, lost or for any road at Okavango. other people are not paying taxes. That is something we should stand up to ensure that it is implemented MR MOLAO: …that is what we have to explain to our Minister. people so that they know that Government is charging them tax not as punishment, it is being collected to fund Mr Speaker, let me say that even though taxes have been public expenditures so that they benefit from resources of increased on some things, it was not really to punish

Hansard No 201 49 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

Batswana. It is to try and take the services to them So Mr Speaker, my take on this issue of taxes is that there because the economies of countries have suffered, and is no one who can disapprove taxes being implemented. who can the Government turn to if not us the locals, If taxes are going to be implemented and they end up to take ourselves out of these challenges because we in leaking coffers, no, you will have to deal with me. are now facing. If our diamond sales have gone down Honourable Members, all the taxes that you thought of and our tourism industry is collapsing, that means we implementing in order to develop the lives of Batswana, have a challenge and now we have to take ourselves out as the Umbrella for Democratic Change, (UDC) we could of this challenge and do things for ourselves. There is not disapprove them. The problem we have is that you a Setswana saying that goes “mpha mpha o a lapisa, say you are taxing people and then you take those taxes motho o kgonwa ke sa gagwe,” meaning that “the to the BD, the same Domkrag that does not know how constant act of asking is tiring, it is better to have your to manage tax money. You are saying we should agree own things.” This is what they mean and now we have with you to tax Batswana and then you take their tax to do things for ourselves as Batswana and develop our money to the same people who cannot manage money. country during hard times like these. Thank you Mr Wow! Are you saying we should continue agreeing with Speaker. you Honourable Members, whereby we want people to like us? I am used to disapproving everything in politics MR MOTSAMAI (GHANZI SOUTH): I thank you but there are issues that I can realise that no, people are Mr Speaker. Let me take the brief moment to share not treated well here. In regards to the taxes you want, what I have to say even though time is not on our side. if investigating organisations like Director of Economic I want to respond to some statements that were said by Crime and others are not independent in following up on Honourable Members indicating that we are hypocrites, these issues properly and finding ways to arrest corrupt we approved the Development Plan and now we have people or that they are prosecuted accordingly… started to complain whereas we are the ones who approved the issues that we were talking about in the HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is saying the likes of Plan. No, sometimes that is just trying to make people Director of Economic Crime? like you as the Botswana Democratic Party, as you are used to doing that. We talked about these and we MR SPEAKER: Honourable Molebatsi, what are you were complaining but you approved these issues by doing? You are out of order. Just pure interruption of a force. Every day you approve things by force, using Member on the floor. Honourable Motsamai, go ahead. your numbers and then you boast that you will vote MR MOTSAMAI: Let him fall in boiling water. and you have more numbers. You approve things using Mr Speaker, if these organisations will still have the your numbers. You do not approve or disapprove things challenges we see whereby some people are prosecuted... based on reasons, you disapprove things based on your Right now we are from a State of Emergency (SoE) numbers and you come here having made up your mind, that has been extended, and we tried to disapprove and it does not matter what anyone will say. that because that promotes people being given direct The statement that was made by Honourable Mephato appointments of tenders, and there is no screening of Reatile in regards to Greater Gaborone projects is applications. Those tenders are our tax money. That straightforward. I also made those remarks and I am even is money that is supposed to be accounted for. So we repeating that, Honourable Matsheka we are introducing cannot just keep on agreeing Mr Speaker, that those these taxes so that we can take developments to places taxes should disadvantage Batswana. like Lobatse, Gaborone and other places that are nearer Mr Speaker, we are told that that tax is the one that to Gaborone, whereas we are left behind in areas like indicates that Batswana who earned less were shown Ghanzi, Kgalagadi and other constituencies that did not mercy. This tax or process has found Batswana get anything. In fact, you are even talking about roads in vulnerable as Batswana have nothing. If that was a constituencies like Okavango. A Member of Parliament waiver, other taxes for goods that are in this country has been complaining about the Okavango Road, that are still there. Even when you talk about fuel, there are money has been allocated on one side only and what taxes. When you get at the farmers, there are taxes on did he benefit? That is the situation we are complaining diesel, taxes on the systems that affect farmers, like about. the 4 per cent tax they are charged when they sell their cattle. This tax is not going to solve any of our problems

50 Hansard No 201 Wednesday 14th April, 2021 INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO. 13 OF 2021) Second Reading

Honourable Matsheka. You could have consulted me so MR MOTSAMAI: Go ahead Sir. that I can assist you Honourable Member. MR SPEAKER: It is now six o’clock. I shall now Let me say Honourable Member, as we continue to call upon the Leader of the House to move a Motion of talk about these taxes, I am still the same Honourable adjournment. Motsamai who, not so long ago was complaining about issues of the likes of Charles Hill. When you get to MOTION Charles Hill, Minister Mmusi Kgafela reported that ADJOURNMENT they are continuing with projects accordingly, and he said that on radio as I was listening to him when he was LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): talking about the projects he has given to people and Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, as we have the public. Projects like the Charles Hill Finance Offices concluded today’s business, I move that this House do are not complete. People were awarded a building and now adjourn. the money that was supposed to construct a road, and Question put and agreed to. P3 million just vanished. People were given offices whereas there was no road that went to that building, but The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 6:00 p.m. until money was provided to implement that as a package. Thursday 15th April, 2021 at 11:00 a.m. These things indicate that our taxes in constituencies in the western part of the country do not benefit us in any way Mr Speaker. We are just used to paying taxes for the utilities we never get.

Honourable Member from Kgalagadi South was talking about the issue of borders. That is true, when you get to borders like Mamuno Border-gate, you will find that you charged are almost $350.00 for a Hilux car, but when people from Namibia get into Botswana, they are charged around P40.00. This is a huge difference which feels like we are side-lined as Batswana because of our nationality. When we travel to other countries we are charged. In our country, at the till, you do not get receipts, and they do not save their money in Botswana, they do that somewhere else. They dismiss our children from work unfairly. They do not take care of them at work because of your Government which wants tax, does not protect its citizens and advertises that we have cheap labour in Botswana, and people should come and open businesses and does nothing to protect workers from the unfortunate incidents of being dismissed from work unfairly.

Mr Speaker, if we continue with the current situation… Vice President complained that we cannot have speeches which divide the nation. Speeches which divide the nation cannot be there if we stop distributing developments based on which tribe it is or favouritism. Speeches which divide the nation are caused by the fact that some are living well while others are suffering.

MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Motsamai, let me stop you, it is time up.

Hansard No 201 51 HANSARD RECORDERS Mr. T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. D. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Mr M. Buti, Ms Z. Molemi, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi, Ms N. Mokoka

HANSARD EDITORS Ms K. Nyanga, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms G. Lekopanye, Ms T. Mokhure, Ms B. Ratshipa HANSARD TRANSLATORS Ms B. Ntisetsang, Ms M. Sekao, Ms B. Mosinyi, Ms V. Nkwane, Ms N. Kerobale, Ms K. Motswakhumo, Ms T. Motsau, Ms O. Phesodi, Mr K. Setswe

LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B. B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae

Hansard No 201 52