Interview with Samuel Holmes Interviewer: Kerry Owens Transcriber: Kerry Owens Date of Interview: March 10, 1986 Location: A-J Leasing Company Office, 6500 Middle Fiskville Road, Austin, TX ______

Begin Tape 1, Side 1

Kerry Owens: We’re at A-J Leasing, which is Sam’s office, where he works, and we’re doing the interview there. In the interview, if something is left out, if it’s omitted, and we’re going to go back later and fill it in, then I’ll just indicate that with brackets. If there is something that’s left out or a sentence that’s not complete or something to that effect, I’ll just use three dots to indicate that. And, if there’s something that I don’t understand the spelling, etcetera, I’ll just leave a blank and get that information from Sam, and we’ll go back in and fill that in later.

Okay, this is Kerry Owens. The first part of that didn’t record. I’m doing an interview for Southwest Texas State University Oral History Project. I’m interviewing Sam Holmes, a porter at A-J Leasing, and I gave the introduction. And [I] also would like to say that Sam and I have discussed this interview to a degree prior to the interview, and he was a bit concerned that he might be asked in some way to compromise on information, but he understands that anything that he wants to edit can be taken out of the tape, and also, Sam, if there is something that you don’t, information that you wouldn’t mind being included at a future date, but you don’t necessarily want it included now, you can put a seal on it for any period of time. You can put a seal on it for a year, five years, ten years, twenty years, if you would like. So, you have a lot of flexibility. You will see the transcript before it goes to the archives at Southwest Texas. So, do you have any questions on what is going to happen after I type it up? You understand that you can go over it and ask me to omit anything that you would like. Or at any time during this interview you can ask me to erase something on the tape. You can go back over and listen to the tape, whatever you would like to do.

Samuel Holmes: That, so far, seems reasonable. We’ll take it from here.

Owens: Okay, all right. We’ll go ahead then and start the interview now. Sam is from Austin, and you’ve lived here all of your life. You were born here, right?

Holmes: Right.

Owens: Austin’s changed a lot since you can remember. What would you say of your memories of Austin, what were your first memories as a child that really stand out?

Samuel Holmes Interview, March 10, 1986 1 Texas 150 Oral History Collection. University Archives, Texas State University

Holmes: Well, that would take some thinking, but as a child growing up here, you see, we lived in an integrated neighborhood. The only thing that was segregated was the schools that we went to and the parks that we had to play in, or transportation. But as a child growing up, it’s very much excitement takes place here in Austin at that time because it wasn’t anything happening to that extent. But, I can remember this: I know that we sold papers on Sundays. People had a paper route. That was a pretty good activity for young ones at that time. But, along about ‘35 or ’36, we had the flood here in Austin, and at that time, I was eleven or twelve, but anyhow, this one particular night. That day we had been down to the river because that was the talk of the town then, and Montopolis Bridge had washed away. I can remember that bridge when I was little. Big long, iron bridge that went across the Colorado River, right there where Monotoplis Bridge is now. They had a big ole iron bridge that went right across that water. Well, that flood washed that bridge out, and that was exciting, and to see all in the water at that time. And even in downtown Austin, the Congress Avenue Bridge now, water was lapping over that bridge. So, if you could picture in your mind the level of water at the top of that bridge, if you could picture in your mind all of the business places that, out in the South Austin area, there now, there where the Nighthawk burned down, all those areas over there. All [of] that was under water. And even where all the places that had built up along the river now, they wouldn’t dare build there because of the flood. But anyhow, what was exciting about it to me was that they had a street, East Avenue is where I-35 is now, and that was a double highway on both sides, and that went all the way down to First Street. And that water was so high until we could swim in that water right there on Fourth Street, Fourth and East Avenue. If you can picture in your mind where Fourth Street is now, and how far the river is down there now, it will give you some idea as to the devastation of that flood. But anyway, what was interesting about it. We were—

I guess around 8:30 or 9:00 that evening and the paperman, John, he was Caucasian, he would always bring us the paper out on Sundays for us to take and sell. But he come down there that night, it might have been a Friday night or Saturday night, I don’t recall what night it was. But anyway, he come down there, we were playing, and he say, “Look,” he say, “I want y’all to go sell some paper tonight.” I said, “Sell paper tonight, this late, you can’t sell no papers this time of the night, John.” He said, “Look, this is an extra.” “Extra, what’s the extra all about?” Well, what had happened was some thirty people had got drownded down at Hornsby’s Bend, down on the river, and we had that extra, and we went out, and we were hollering, “Extra, extra, read all about it, thirty people missing on Hornsby’s Bend.” And you talk about the people coming out, buying those papers. That to me, that was just fascinating. People, the people who did have electricity at that time. You’d see lights come on. And I could hear people calling, “Hey, hey, bring me the paper, bring me the paper.” And we sold more papers that night than I think I’ve ever sold anytime I could remember. But to me, that’s the only time I remember an extra coming out in Austin. It could have. We could have had another extra there, but I don’t recall another one. But to me as a child, I think that was one thing that did stand out in my mind as something that was interesting.

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Owens: Yeah, where did the people drown?

Holmes: At Hornsby Bend. That’s down about Bastrop area, in that area, off down that area there.

Owens: Hornsby Bend. I’ll write that down.

Holmes: And I don’t know. You can probably check at the American Statesman. I am almost sure they would have a copy. Might be good to ask them if they, I’m sure somebody, something, an event of that magnitude, I am sure they would have.

Owens: That was the night of the big flood that the people drowned?

Holmes: Yes.

Owens: Well, did they not have the dam then?

Holmes: They had this little dam up here, I think it was Tom Miller Dam [at that time known as Austin Dam], but it washed away. No, they didn’t have Mansfield Dam at that time.

Owens: All they had was Tom Miller [Austin Dam].

Holmes: And that dam washed away. They didn’t have anything to hold the water. So it was devastating. It was a lot of excitement.

Owens: Well, how did y’all deliver the papers, but you just walked?

Holmes: You walked, well, sure, you just got up, and he took us down to East Avenue there and just whatever neighborhood, they would let two or three of us off in this neighborhood, and two or three of us off in that neighborhood, and people all in the area.

Owens: So, they took y’all around in cars and left you off at a certain point?

Holmes: He just had one car. And he took a couple or two of us off here on this street, like we was let off on East Avenue there and take two maybe to the downtown area and then take two out in the part, what they called the Blackland area, and south and just all around. So that was, that stood out in my mind pretty good because I’d never seen that much water and haven’t seen that much water. I mean, like in Austin.

Owens: Had it rained a lot prior to the flood?

Holmes: About two weeks, I think, not, to me, being a child, I didn’t pay attention to how hard, how hard it was raining, how often it was raining, but I know it rained enough to do that.

Owens: Wow.

Holmes: Yeah, so that was.

Samuel Holmes Interview, March 10, 1986 3 Texas 150 Oral History Collection. University Archives, Texas State University

Owens: Pretty exciting as a child.

Holmes: It was very exciting, yeah.

Owens: Well, let’s see, that was in ’35.

Holmes: ’35 or ’36. One of these.

Owens: What was the population of Austin at that time? It was about—

Holmes: Thirty-eight thousand, or whether it was that many at that time.

Owens: It was about, well, between fifty-five and eighty-five thousand.

Holmes: What, in ’36? I was thinking that I had seen the sign on the highway saying thirty-eight thousand people. Maybe that was an earlier date than that. I don’t know.

Owens: Well, I don’t know. Now this was from the Census Bureau, and they had 1930, fifty- three thousand.

Holmes: 1930? Maybe have to do some checking on that.

Owens: Really, because you remember seeing the sign.

Holmes: I’ve seen the sign with thirty-eight thousand population.

Owens: We’ll check that out, Sam.

Holmes: Well, now, the census could have been taken in the counties.

Owens: Uh-huh.

Holmes: All of Travis County, then, it might could have been.

Owens: Well, could have been. It said just Austin, though.

Holmes: Well, it could have been Austin and surrounding areas, but I’m talking just Austin in the city. I have seen the sign that says thirty-eight thousand, and I’ve commented about that from time to time, how that when I was growing up here, I remember the population sign saying thirty-eight thousand, and The University of Texas, they’ve got forty-eight thousand students, not including faculty and what have you. More people at The University of Texas than they had in the city when I was growing up. So, you can pretty well tell the size of the city.

Owens: Well, that’s interesting, Sam, I’m going to check out the population thing. Well, what’s the Blackland? What did you say? You were talking about areas.

Samuel Holmes Interview, March 10, 1986 4 Texas 150 Oral History Collection. University Archives, Texas State University

Holmes: Well, that was just a name that they designated to a certain part of East Austin. If you’ve ever been out Martin Luther King—

Interruption (telephone rings)

Owens: Okay, the telephone rang, so we’re back on our interview now.

Holmes: As I was saying, that Martin Luther King [Jr. Boulevard] was kind of a dividing line between somewhere in East Austin there, and the people that lived to the north of Martin Luther King, we called that area Blackland, and we didn’t have no designated name for the area that we lived in. But anybody that lived the other side of Martin Luther King, it was more or less what they called Blackland.

Owens: A real high concentration of blacks lived in that area?

Holmes: Well, they lived predominantly out on the east side. High concentration. Just right around that little area because, as I said, all the neighborhoods were integrated. I know where we lived, you, one block, in one block we had Germans living on one block, they had a store. Across the street over there we had the Swedes, they had a grocery store there, and McDonalds had one just a half a block from us, and the Schieffer’s Meat Market and things of that nature, so you couldn’t go two or three blocks in any direction without running into a mixed neighborhood.

Owens: Where did you live?

Holmes: Hackberry. 1411 Hackberry.

Owens: Where is that located?

Holmes: Well, where the Anderson High School is now, you know where they are building the new school. Well, the old Anderson High School burned down. Well, they’re building a new school over there now, which will be a junior high school, and we lived a half a block from that school. Right now, I think they have a swimming pool and a playground, and that swimming pool is just about more or less where our home was at.

Owens: Your home is no longer there?

Holmes: No, that was—

Interruption (telephone rings)

Owens: That was the phone again. Here we are back on the interview. Okay, Sam, well, that’s real interesting about the flood. Is there anything else that stands out in your memory as a child?

Holmes: Not necessarily so, not anything like that. That is something that kind of stayed with me, but just routine as a child. And, I don’t know, this might not make any sense. One thing, something else I would say, too but I got a job at the grocery store. I’d had [a] little bitty job. I

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guess it must have been thirteen or fourteen, just at the age where—well, as a kid, I always liked candy, still do, but I got the job at the grocery store there, and they had kind of a discussion as to who would get it, but anyhow, I got the job, and when I got the job, you know, then they had the Babe Ruth and Butterfinger and Milky Ways and Snickers, they had all kinds of candy in the case there. And I had said to myself if I ever got a job working there, “Oh, I’m going to get all the candy I want, if I have a chance to just slip and get everything I want.” And so, anyhow, Mr. Fallwell, he called me in and said, “Sam,” say “Let me tell you something,” say, “I know that little boys always like to take things that they shouldn’t take,” said, “But I’m going to tell you, son, you’re going to be working, but you’re going to be trusted, you’re going to be just like the family.” Said, “See all that nice candy in there.” I said, “Sure do.” He said, “Well, look, any of that candy you want, you can have. You don’t have to steal it, you don’t have to take it, you don’t have to do anything. Take anything you want.” That broke my heart because I felt that, I don’t know, sometimes when you, seems like you would be slipping in getting something you can enjoy it more. But it taught me a lesson, too. That, and it was a valuable lesson, and I was trusted from then on. I never had no problem. But anyway, I just had it on my mind how I was going to go in there and just lift this candy and eat it, and when he told me that I didn’t have to do that, that just took all the fun—

Owens: It wasn’t fun anymore.

Holmes: It took all the fun out of it. It began to be a job then, got to be work.

Owens: So that was your first job after the paper? Delivering the paper? What did you do next, what type [of] work?

Holmes: Nothing because I wasn’t that old at that time.

Owens: What was your first—was your first job, you know, when you were old enough to work, was it in a hotel in Austin?

Holmes: No, I had worked a little bit at Kerrville Bus Garage for a while. And then I had worked for the Zeta House. That was a girls’ sorority. That was an interesting place. Fine place, fine people. See Zetas occasionally now that, the ones that went through at the time that I was there, and they, we recognize each other, and we get a fine conversation going about the times that I worked there because those young ladies, they were young, but I think they matured. I was young. We all come along and just learned just kind of by being there. I still say that was a fine sorority, and it probably still is. I worked there for a while.

Owens: At the university.

Holmes: Yeah, Zeta Tau Alpha, that’s right.

Owens: I imagine that sororities have changed a lot since then.

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Holmes: They probably have, but I’m sure they still have pledges, I’m sure they still have to serve. Usually, if it’s a ladies’ home, a girls’ house, usually they feed them three times a day, a boys’ house, usually twice a day. We fed them three times a day, and there were some fine young ladies.

Owens: What about the bus company. I’m sure that’s changed a lot, traveling by bus.

Holmes: Yes, that is had. And, of course, the time I was there, that was during World War II. They were hauling soldiers from Camp Swift at that time. It was an interesting job to an extent, but it was nothing exciting, just routine work.

Owens: Where is Camp Swift?

Holmes: It’s eight miles kind of north of Bastrop. In other words, if you go to Elgin or Bastrop on Highway 21, it’s right in between Elgin and Bastrop.

Owens: And what were they doing? They were taking soldiers to and from Austin from there?

Holmes: Yeah, that was, soldier[s] would have the weekend, the weekend pass. We, they contracted with them from Camp Swift to Austin and from Austin to Camp Swift, and so we had the buses going there. We had the service buses. Keep them running, things of that nature.

Owens: Was Kerrville Bus Company located on—

Holmes: On Third [Street] and Chicon [Street].

Owens: Is that where they are now?

Holmes: No, they’re probably. They were down there on Fourth [Street] and Congress [Avenue], I believe, with Greyhound. I think Kerrville and Greyhound kind of integrated together.

Owens: Oh yeah, I believe they did, uh-huh. Well, do you remember what the bus fares were?

Holmes: No, sure don’t. Don’t have the slightest idea.

Owens: Do you remember what year that was that you worked there?

Holmes: Probably ’41, ’42.

Owens: What, ah, and then what was your next job? What did you do? After the bus company and then the sorority house? Did you work in a hotel?

Holmes: For a hotel, yes.

Owens: And then you went, what was the first hotel you worked for?

Holmes: The Driskill.

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Owens: The Driskill? And that was in what, do you remember the year?

Holmes: The middle forties. Could have been ’46 or ’47, somewhere along there.

Owens: So it was right after the war. ’46. Who owned the hotel at that time?

Holmes: Well, I think the hotel was changing hands. I think Mr. Stark had been the manager. I think he was going out, and I think Paul Milton was there. They were interchanging managers at the time. I think Milton was going out, and Jess Whatley was coming in. About ’47 when he came in, somewhere along in there.

Owens: What was your job there, your first job for a hotel?

Holmes: Driving an elevator.

Owens: Well, tell us about it. That sounds really fun.

Holmes: Not really, it was work because with the elevator that was down in the lobby. You know, you know where the lobby is, the lower level, right about the marble floor.

Owens: Yes.

Holmes: I think you had an office up there on the second floor at one time. That elevator right there, that was manually operated. And they had brass rails that you had to manually open and close, and that was, about that elevator had a big canopy set up on the top of that elevator with stained glass. It was real elegant looking, and the elevator was all clean and nice and neat with the big glass doors, and you had to keep them, just like bars on the jail that you just slide between the pole and let the people on and off. That was the first job I had there.

Owens: How many floors were there that you had to go up in the elevator?

Holmes: That was just four, up to the fourth floor in that building. And then they had elevators in the annex, that they called it. Twelve floors over there. They were manually operated over there, getting them speeds up. On the twelve story annex, I think you would, you go so many feet [six hundred] a minute over there, but on the old slide over there, they were just extremely slow. It takes about thirty or forty seconds to go up to the fourth floor.

Owens: Did you ever break down between floors or get stuck?

Holmes: Well, occasionally you would, but it wasn’t anything to panic about because they have, the brake systems that they have on those elevators are extremely well put-together

Owens: But what did you do if you did get caught?

Holmes: Usually you would have a button. You have a button on the elevator that you could push or buzz. They didn’t have a telephone on them at that time. What would happen, you just

Samuel Holmes Interview, March 10, 1986 8 Texas 150 Oral History Collection. University Archives, Texas State University

push a button, and they would hear it, and they would come and find out what the problem might be. The only thing that would be bad about it would be depending on where the elevator would stop. If it stopped on the floor, then they could manually open the doors, but if you stopped between two floors, halfway up and halfway down, then you’d have a problem.

Owens: How did they get you unstuck? I mean, was there a lot of ventilation in that elevator?

Holmes: Oh yeah, you didn’t have any problem there. Oh, once or twice it would get stuck and wouldn’t move, and we’d open the door. Sometimes you’d have guests on there. That would be the only time. You’d have somebody with claustrophobia. They might get a little excited, but if you’d talk to them, calm them down, well, they would pretty much be all right. And they’d come open the doors, and we’d lift them out of there, so, never anything drastic. It was only when you’d find a person that was extremely afraid of elevators to start it, and something like that happened. They’d panic and get other people excited. That would be a problem, but otherwise—

Owens: So where did you go from there in your career in hotels? What did you do next?

Holmes: Oh, next I worked as a bellman there for a couple of years to see how that was. And then I got involved in shipping and receiving. I handled that because long about ’52, we, well, they had been taking in salesmen, sample, what they call “sample men.” And that was interesting to work with those people. That was one of the jobs that I did after I left the elevator there. And after I quit being a bellman, I took care of the traveling salesman. And that was interesting to this extent because, you see, they have all of the merchandise that the stores would receive. In other words, I could see the new fashions anywhere from three to six months before they got to the stores. What these people would do is some men travel with their trunks. So, I’d come in, and I’d check their reservation that morning, and they’d say, “Well, Mr. So-and-So is coming in.” “What time is he coming in?” “Well, he’s coming in on the train.” See, trains were running at that time. And one head waiter there, he had a pickup truck. And that would do. If I knew he coming in, he’d come in, and he’d leave, he’d come at night and leave his baggage ticket there at the front desk, and I would take his pickup truck and go down and get his trunks and bring them back. In the meantime, I would set up all of his display for him in the room, so when they got there, the display was already set up, and all they had to do was just open up their lines, and you would get to see some interesting things. The jewelry, they always kept that locked up in the vault they had down behind the front desk. But your mink stoles and fur coats and things of that nature, just any of the ladies ready-to-wear, men’s shoes, etcetera, all of that was on display. I took care of those sample rooms and set up the displays for all of the sample men that come through with their merchandise.

Owens: Well, it sounds like there were a lot of them.

Holmes: There was. We had seven rooms set up special for those men. Sometimes we had to use some upstairs, but those rooms stayed basically occupied all of the time because when one salesman would move out then another salesman would move in. And that’s how I got involved

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in the shipping and receiving because many times they would, if I picked up the truck then I had to ship them out. And whatever parcel post the hotel had going out or coming in. I had to handle all of that, so all that worked around right in the same area there.

Owens: Well, who came to see, who did they sell them to, the stores?

Holmes: Yes, all the jewelry stores that were in the downtown area. The ladies’ ready-to-wear stores. See, each store had a buyer. If it was lingerie, well, the lady from Scarborough’s Lingerie, she would come over, and she would make a selection as to what she would buy. The ladies’ ready-to-wear from Scarborough’s. She would come over for evening gowns or what have you. Or they would come for the mink stoles or mink coats, whatever. Or the ladies’ shoes or whatever to wear that you could find in downtown Austin. It had to come from—

Owens: Well, there were no big shopping centers then.

Holmes: No.

Owens: So all of the stores were in the downtown area, and that’s why it was so convenient.

Holmes: That’s what Austin was all about, the downtown area.

Owens: Well, that’s interesting. So you set everything up for them.

Holmes: Yeah. As I previously stated, I got to see—I knew what the style the people would be wearing even before they would wear it because I got a chance to see it first.

Owens: Interesting. So what did you do after that?

Holmes: Well, I did that until the hotel closed.

Owens: When was that, what year did they close?

Holmes: ’69.

Owens: 1969. So you started there what year, do you know?

Holmes: Oh, that would be, let’s say ’47.

Owens: So you were there, gosh, years.

Holmes: Well, the hotel closed in ’69, but I didn’t leave in ’69. You see, after it closed, we had an auction there, but the building was still there. You still had the valuable things in the hotel. You see, when they auctioned off things, they didn’t auction off all of the valuable, the valuable furnishings of the hotel. They were left there just in case that they might renovate it.

Owens: So did they sell the hotel, or it just closed?

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Holmes: They closed it, and for about a year they kept the chief engineer there. The manager was there for a while. They had two engineers there because somebody stayed in the building all the time. But, it was somebody there all the time.

Owens: But did they close for renovation?

Holmes: They closed to tear it down.

Owens: Oh.

Holmes: And I think some of the people in Austin were interested in renovating it and putting it back up, and so some got involved in that. And I think the Heritage Society was interested in getting it restored and renovated and put back into action, and that’s why they never did tear it down. So, it went on from there. So from ’69 until it opened up again, there was somebody there.

Owens: And did you stay there until it opened again?

Holmes: Yeah.

Owens: What year did it open?

Holmes: ’73?

Owens: Well now, when did you work at the Sheraton?

Holmes: I never worked at the Sheraton.

Owens: You didn’t? I really thought you worked at the Sheraton?

Holmes: No, but a lot of the bellmen worked at the Sheraton. They were trained at the Driskill, and they went to the Sheraton.

Owens: So you worked. When did you leave the Driskill, what year? ’84? So you were there thirty-seven years?

Holmes: Way you figure it out, approximately thirty-eight.

End of Side 1, begin Side 2

Owens: Okay, this is Kerry, and we’re starting on side two now, and I think what I’m going to do at this point is, Sam understands that what we’re interested in in the interview is just looking back to see how things were in his particular business, so, what Austin was like and perhaps has changed or how the hotel business has changed. So, I think I’m just going to let Sam take it from here, and maybe we could start with what were room rates like when you started to work for the Driskill versus what they were when he left, because I know there’s a big change there. And

Samuel Holmes Interview, March 10, 1986 11 Texas 150 Oral History Collection. University Archives, Texas State University

what type of people came into the Driskill? I know it was a big social gathering place. Whatever he wants to say. I’m just going to let him talk about how it’s changed. So, take it away, Sam.

Holmes: Well, changed it has. I can remember, I think, the rooms started at about $2.50 per night. That was in the traditional part of the hotel. And for $2.50, you had a bath. You had a ceiling fan. And they were nice rooms. They were not air-conditioned, but the ceiling fans, because they were nice and they made the room real comfortable. That was in the traditional part of the hotel, and then in the annex, they had the rooms over there, but since that was the newest part of the hotel, the rooms on the east side was about $3.50. This reason was because on the east side, see the sun come up on the east, when it set on the west, because it was always cooler on the east side, so that’s why the rooms on the east side were $3.50 and the rooms on the west was $3.00. And they had full shades on the outside of the building on the west side of the annex there at the time, to cool the building down where the rooms would be comfortable. Then, you could raise your window and get the breeze in there from the outside to the inside, but that was the room rates there when I started. And I think when I left, this could be a round figure. I think your penthouse rents for about $290 a night. But then, when you went to the penthouse, you got the works because you had the whole roof to yourself. You had furniture and all the lawn furniture, outdoor iron furniture, that could be used for outside. Then you had the big master bedroom all fixed with a little office and desk. You had a refrigerator and microwave and hi-fi and music and Jacuzzi tub, and you had the whole works up there. But that was the difference in the—from 2.50 to 290, that’s $2.50 to $290. A little difference, wouldn’t you think. Yeah, so that was the difference in room rates.

Service was basically the same until, I don’t know, maybe the last five years or so; it began to kind of change somewhat because when people come to the Driskill and they would inquire about, whether it was beverage or food or whatever it was, and if they didn’t have it at the hotel, you were allowed to go out and get it for them. And that was one thing that made the hotel an interesting place to be. It was just like a home away from home for people because if you had the money, people would certainly give you the service or whatever was asked. That is, within reason, nothing outstanding or outlandish, but from a reasonable standpoint. Food and drink, whatever, if it was going and buying a suit, or whatever it might be. But then it changed to the extent, as the years come on down, competition got, to the extent, and so many times you can do things, and it can even bring a lawsuit upon the hotel. You can go out and get something for somebody, and it might make them sick, and then they want, it would have an effect on the hotel because you work there. So, the last ten years on down it began to change because so many lawsuits taking place and people just didn’t want to get involved in anything of that nature. But overall, it was a fine place. Still is. And the other thing, I think, about is, I’ll tell you this. Two other things and that’s it. This thing was, when I started there, they had people that bootlegged. And it was kind of, that’s, uh, not the hotel had any parties that did that, but people that were around the hotel. This would be like on a Sunday, and the police; well, you know, they always set up people to try to catch them. And these people that did that, they were pretty shrewd. I

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know, not calling any names or anything, but this particular person, Sunday morning, detectives would come around and say, “Hey, so-and-so, you knew where I could buy me a bottle of whiskey?” “Sure.” And they would tell them, “Well, you go over, just step right outside the door there, and right down the corner, that person over there shining shoes—” They shined shoes. They had a little old box there they used to carry around with them to shine shoes. And they would go over there, and this detective would say, he’d go over there and say, “Hey, so-and-so, you know where I can get me a bottle of whiskey?” “Sure.” “What’s it going to cost me?” “Well, it will cost you $5” Say, “Okay, you give me $5, and I’ll go get you.” Said, “In the meantime, put your foot up here on this box and [act] like I’m shining your shoe, and I’ll go on down and get your liquor for you.” So the fellow would go on down the street, would go on down Sixth Street, and the detective, he was standing up there at fifteen or twenty minutes with his foot on the box, and he, they had a shine parlor next to it anyway, and he’d say, “Where do you think so- and-so went, he took my money, and he’s been gone for almost an hour.” And he’d say, “Well, I don’t know. Where did you send him at?” And say, “Well, he’s supposed to get me a bottle of liquor.” He’d say, “Well, is that right?” He’d say, “Well, okay,” say, “You going to get a shine there. Why don’t you pick up that box that you got your foot on.” And he’d pick up the box, that shoeshine box, and looked in there under the paper and there the liquor was. And he’d went and got his money and already gone, so they quite a few ways of, systems of selling liquor without getting caught.

Owens: Well, did, when was this? Was this during Prohibition? I don’t even know when Prohibition was, that was in the twenties, though.

Holmes: —No, but you see, even now it’s illegal to sell alcoholic beverages on Sundays. And see, this was on a Sunday. If you have a plan, you could buy it, but you can’t sell it on; in the boiler you can buy a mixed drink, but you can’t sell liquor on Sundays. So, this was on a Sunday, see, they had all the; this was just one of those neat ways they would have about selling the liquor, even to the police, so without getting caught.

Owens: That’s interesting. But they did sell liquor in Austin. They just didn’t sell it on Sundays.

Holmes: Well, they had all kinds of ways of making money. And people are still drugging today, which I don’t condone. Didn’t condone that. But there were other; it was interesting to see how people operate. One other thing that I think was fascinating about the hotel at the time was the Crystal Ballroom. That I can remember when the first time I saw it, they had the little white tile on the floor. And you know, when was it, in the sixties or seventies, maybe in the seventies, they come out with all of the psychedelic colors, you know, the rock bands and all this. And they still use a lot of that now. Well, you see the Crystal Ballroom, it had white tile on the floor, and then right in the center they had a big crystal ball, which was mirrors. And this was on a rotisserie. And then they had all the primary lights to focus down on this crystal ball, which was nothing but mirrors. And the mirrors were shaped in such an oblong way so that when you cut on all of these primary lights and this ball would rotate, everybody that was in there would be bathed with

Samuel Holmes Interview, March 10, 1986 13 Texas 150 Oral History Collection. University Archives, Texas State University

all of the primary light. And it was such a beautiful thing to see all of the primary colors just floating around, just bathing all of these people in there with something like that. And they got psychedelic things going now, with that rock and roll, and they think it’s something new, but they were doing that even back in the period of time.

Owens: When was this?

Holmes: That was in the thirties and forties.

Owens: Really, I imagine that was pretty, especially with the women in their ball gowns. And they really wore ball gowns, didn’t they?

Holmes: They did.

Owens: The Crystal Ballroom, how big was it?

Holmes: At that time, three hundred people. You had an extremely large crowd because they could use the mezzanine also, because you see, out on the mezzanine that was open, just like the rotunda at the Capitol. On each floor you can look all the way down in the lobby. And it was a fascinating place to see.

Owens: Well, they had orchestras then also, big orchestras, didn’t they? I’ll bet the Driskill had some big-name artists.

Holmes: They did. The only thing that was interesting, too, well, I guess we were too little then to have it, I don’t know. It was like Louis Armstrong would come there, and then, black wasn’t, they wasn’t into that part of it there. The only way you would get to see him was if you were working there. Otherwise you didn’t get to see him.

Owens: Really? Because you weren’t allowed into the ballroom unless you?

Holmes: Well, no, as I said, neighborhoods were integrated, but none of the business places or none of the buses or schools. So, understand, if you worked there, then you would get a chance to.

Owens: So Louis Armstrong played there, but you couldn’t see him if you were black? Because you were not allowed into the hotel.

Holmes: Not unless you worked there.

Owens: Did you see him?

Holmes: I wasn’t working at that time.

Owens: Oh, at that time. Yeah, that was the big band era, Tommy Dorsey and—

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Holmes: Yeah, and Count Basie and Benny Goodman and things of that nature. So, I don’t know how many of the ones they had in the hotel, but I do know that they had some big bands there. And, everything was fine, first-class.

Owens: Well, that’s the Driskill’s reputation. Everything was always first-class. So you really enjoyed working there?

Holmes: Yeah, it was a wonderful place to work.

Owens: Well, I won’t ask you any stories about anyone, Sam, because I know that when you work in a hotel, you know a lot of inside information, but I’m not going to ask you to reveal any of this information to me.

Holmes: Well, I appreciate that, because you see—

Owens: But is there anything, for instance, anything you remember about LBJ, that era, when they were staying there, something that you don’t mind repeating, or any more anecdotes about anyone that you don’t mind repeating. And you don’t have to, don’t feel pressured at all.

Holmes: Well, I’ll say this, and then I’m going to have to—tension. I can remember when Mr. Johnson and Mr. Coke Stevenson was running for the United States Senate. When people went to bed, like the night when they were voting, Mr. Stevenson was ahead, he was winning. And when they woke up the next morning, Mr. Johnson was ahead. They both were staying at the hotel at the same time. And the tension in the dining room was something you could cut with a knife, as they sat and eat in the same area.

Owens: They were both in the hotel at the same time.

Holmes: Same time. Both in the dining room at the same time, so, people being diplomatic. And, at least, I think Mr. Johnson won the Senate race.

Owens: Yeah, I wonder what year that was. I don’t know. I don’t know my politics that well, but that’s interesting, that’s interesting.

Holmes: That’s over, as I say, talking about them, you just cannot go into details on things. But that was something that was known by a lot of people there. Everybody there, so that, what I made mention of, that was no secret or anything like that, but the (unintelligible), that was—

Interruption (telephone rings)

Owens: Are there any other little stories or things that stick out in your mind in your years at the Driskill. Anyone you particularly admire or that you knew well, okay?

Holmes: I liked all the people there and especially of that nature. I’m not into name-calling, you know, we talked about. But, as I was going to say, I like this person. Listen, at that time there

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were in the neighborhood of 280 people working at the Driskill, from the time periodically, and you can say, “Yeah, I like this person,” and you can say, “Well, I knew Sam,” and you know, just name one person in particular. So, rather than just naming just an individual, I didn’t have a problem with anybody. They might have had a problem with me, but I didn’t have any problem with them. We got along all right.

Owens: Yeah, well, I know. I know you are very well thought of and a fixture at the Driskill. Do you know anything about the basement, that area? The basement area. I was in that area once. I got lost down there. And I wondered if anything ever went on down there because that was, it was kind of scary. But even the basement area, the architecture, the archways and everything was really beautiful, even that part of the hotel.

Holmes: Well, the basement was just like the basement of any other place. It was just built with cement blocks and had iron pillars that supported it. Your basement just had a couple of springs down there, still running.

Owens: Springs, what do you mean?

Holmes: Artesian springs. Yeah, at one time that had, had it mixed with water. We used to have a water fountain in the lobby, and they would mix so much of the artesian water, run it through a chiller, and put about 60% city water in it. That was good water. Temperature stayed about, ah, sixty-eight [degrees] all the time. Maybe a little bit warmer than that. And it’s still running now. They’ve given it to the city, just letting it run in the city. But anyhow, that water was very good, had a lot of sulfur in it. And, I say, I’m going to have to, but anyway, about drinking that water. It had a lot of sulfur in it, and when you drank it often enough—are you ever out in the country. The mosquitos and chiggers, they never bothered you because they put the sulfur into your body, and they didn’t like it. And that was, it’s still good water.

Owens: That’s interesting. But they, now they’re pumping it into the city water?

Holmes: Just letting it go into the city. See, we used to use it in some areas, but now they don’t because it’s got so many chemicals in it. So they’re just letting it run into the city. But those two springs have been running down there for years and years, and they are still running.

Owens: What did they look like? What did they—

Holmes: Well, just water coming up out of the ground. But then, when you put a pipe on it, the pipe, they put concrete there, down in the well there and put about a twenty-eight inch neck on it, and it comes up and be just like water running out of a pipe. And you can channel it anywhere you want it to go. Channel it in through your [cooler] or into the bars or outside where it’s going now.

Owens: That’s interesting. Well, I always wondered if there was anything down there. I didn’t know about the springs, though.

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Holmes: Yeah, they’re still down there.

Owens: Anything else about the hotel?

Holmes: That’s going to be it.

Owens: Well, what during that time would you say was the most lavish time? When did people dress the most? When, is there any period you would say?

Holmes: That was during the period of time that they was having the Governor’s Inauguration Ball because all the governors had their headquarters there. They would have it there. And the other times would be when they would have the debutantes. They used to have that there annually. All the ladies and all the single ladies and all the debutante ladies and all the bachelors, they would come, and that would be.

Owens: Was there any period when women dressed up more or when people just in general dressed up more?

Holmes: You didn’t dress up any more than the debutantes or the bachelors, that was it. And, of course, anybody that was at the Governor’s Ball at the Driskill Hotel, you dressed up. You don’t go with any jeans. You go there in boots but not in jeans. Yeah.

Owens: —the boots, huh.

Holmes: By all means. Why not, bow tie. See, boots have been—listen, a $200 pair of boots is always good dressing.

Owens: Do you recall men always wearing boots with tuxedos at the Driskill?

Holmes: I’ve seen them wear boots with tuxedos.

Owens: I guess that’s just Texas.

Holmes: Listen, if you pay $200 or $300 for a pair of boots, or $500 to have your boots made, you can wear them anytime, anywhere.

Owens: That’s true, that’s true. Well, okay, no more stories about the Driskill?

Holmes: No because the one that I would, what peoples really want to hear, is one that I dare not talk about.

Owens: Well, I won’t ask you to talk about it, but could you give us a hint as to what it was regarding?

Holmes: No way.

Owens: No, no, I wouldn’t do that to you.

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Holmes: No, I know you wouldn’t, but the things that went on there were people that I know and they know me and I consider as friends, and if I know something about you, I’ll die a pauper, I guess, if a new system don’t come soon. But to commercialize, capitalize on something that somebody did and the people might be dead or they might not, but it could have an effect on their children.

Owens: Well, I understand that.

Holmes: Yeah, well, your children. I didn’t know your dad did this. I didn’t know your mom did this, I didn’t know, etcetera. Is that right, I didn’t know they was this way, or he was this way, or she was this way. And all the other grueling and disgusting things that take place, I just don’t care to talk about it.

Owens: Well, I can understand that, Sam. I can respect that.

Holmes: And I look at the hotel as a fine place, and [it] still is.

Owens: Uh-huh, yeah, it certainly is.

Holmes: Maybe one of these days, like I said, might could talk about it. But right now, I think all the skeletons should stay that way.

Owens: I wonder if there are skeletons in that hotel? Was anyone ever murdered in that hotel that you recall?

Holmes: Have committed suicide, but I wouldn’t. They had shootouts there.

Owens: Shootouts in the hotel? Can you talk about those?

Holmes: No because I don’t have any details. I can show you where the bullets dented on the pillars, but I don’t have all the details.

Owens: Uh-huh, was that, maybe around Harvey Gantt’s time, when, do you recall what time period that was?

Holmes: Probably in the thirties.

Owens: I guess there were some crazy things that went on in Austin.

Holmes: Probably so. But anyhow, some of things, just off the top of your head without looking at your notes or records of things of this nature. I think if there’s anything that we might talk about later on. Probably is. A lot of excitement there, lot excitement, but when the President would come to town, when he was president, that was always an interesting time because, say they had like thirty rooms reserved, thirty, made twenty rooms reserved for his staff, twenty or twenty-five for his staff, because when he go, you know all the press have to go, that’s your newspaper people and—

Samuel Holmes Interview, March 10, 1986 18 Texas 150 Oral History Collection. University Archives, Texas State University

Owens: President Johnson?

Holmes: Yeah, magazine people and news commentators and etcetera and everybody when he was President. And if he would call, if he would call on football weekends, the hotel would be completely full, and they would call and say the President is coming to Texas. That means all the people that were already paid their money in those suites, the President’s suite and all those ones.

Owens: They were out, huh.

Holmes: Yeah, and you can find some angry people, very angry people. They would say, Why should I give up my room for s-an-so and so-and-so, or, Who do they think they are. But anyhow, it’s interesting—

Owens: Well, did they tell them it’s the President?

Holmes: Sure.

Owens: Oh, I see.

Holmes: Who cares? If you’ve got the, you and your family, and you’ve been driving three hundred miles, and you’ve just got your room there, and you all got sit down, you and your family, you’re relaxed and have somebody come up there and knock, and you have to move. Everything else in town is full. Didn’t have many hotels or motels at that time. But, everything in town is full, and then they say, You got to leave.

Owens: That would be very upsetting. Let’s see how we’re doing on our tape here, Sam. Well, we’re still going, but it looks like you need to leave; I’ll tell you what, why don’t we do this. Why don’t you think, you know, if there’s anything else that you want to say, and I’m going to go, I’ll probably be typing this up tomorrow, what I’ve got so far. When I get it typed, I’ll bring it to work and have you look over. Meanwhile, if there is anything you want to say about the hotel or about anything that we’ve talked about, think about that. And because you’ve got some interesting stories, and if you’ve wanted to say some other things, that’s fine. I can just add them.

Holmes: That would be fine.

Owens: So, so why don’t we do that. And so, I guess for right now, we’re concluding the interview at this point, but we may be doing some additional taping at a later date. Sam’s got a pretty tight schedule. So, at this point, the interview is concluded.

End of interview

Samuel Holmes Interview, March 10, 1986 19 Texas 150 Oral History Collection. University Archives, Texas State University