Transcript of interview with Cindy Choa (conducted by Amanda Lee), 8 February 2017, 1.30 pm, Toa Payoh Library.

Cindy is a female Chinese Singaporean in her 40s who is a teacher. Cindy likes English music by Michael Learns to Rock. She thinks that there is a cultural connection as Singaporeans try to be Westernized and pick things up from English . Cindy likes classical music by Beethoven, Mozart, and Chopin. She thinks that Western classical music is global culture and part of the culture of the country where the music originated from. Cindy does not think that it is a large part of Singaporean culture. Cindy does not listen to Chinese pop rock songs. She likes a few songs but generally finds that she appreciates the melodies and tunes from English pop rock more than Chinese pop rock. Cindy thinks that there is a language connection, and that universal themes like love are relatable globally. Cindy rarely listens to traditional Chinese music but likes the sound of the guzheng. She thinks that it should be preserved as it has a historic background. Cindy thinks that the music expresses a cultural connection as the Chinese instruments originated from . Cindy thinks that the it is mainly the older generation of Singaporeans that listen to traditional Chinese music. Cindy found Chinese pleasant but thinks that the musicians are trying to be Westernized. Cindy does not like experimental Chinese music as she could not hear a distinct melody line. She does not think that it is bad music, and would classify it as different to what she is used to listening to. Cindy thinks that it could express contemporary culture as Chinese culture is becoming increasingly popular in Western countries. Cindy knows of Singaporean musicians like , , and the Sam Willows. She does not listen to their music regularly and is not a big fan of it. Cindy does not think that there is a Singaporean musical style in their music, but sees it in Dick Lee’s musical works when he highlights something about the Singaporean way of life. Cindy does not think that Singlish comedy songs can represent on the global stage as most people would not understand Singlish, and because it is broken English. She does not think that there is a genre of music that can represent Singapore authentically as it is a hodgepodge of races, cultures, and nationalities. Cindy started learning the piano when she was four. Her love for music was highly influenced by her father as he played music whenever he was at home. Cindy enjoyed learning the piano and began lessons in a group setting. However, she got frustrated as she had to learn at her classmates’ pace. Cindy later took private piano lessons. Cindy majored in piano and minored in voice in college. She decided to do piano teaching as she had aspired to be a teacher from a young age and was interested in the piano. Cindy’s approach to teaching is to make sure that her students – regardless of their age, background, race, and ability – have a good foundation in reading music. She wants her students to enjoy learning music and be able to appreciate music. Cindy has taught music in North America and in Singapore. She has noticed that the students overseas seem to be more focused, dedicated, and pursue piano playing because they want to, while Singaporean students are not as focused, or they are too busy or lazy to put in effort to learn. Cindy thinks that if given the opportunity, more students should learn the piano if they wish to.

“I don’t have like one particular favorite. Ya. Er, I prefer like, um, pop rock – let me see. Er, Michael Learns to Rock? Yeah, you know, along those lines. Ya.”

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“I like maybe half or two-thirds of what I normally hear, but not all of it. Sometimes I don’t like the lyrics. Ya, not so much the melody or the harmony, sometimes it’s the lyrics that kind of puts me off. And even if it’s an instrumental version – but because I know the lyrics, ya.”

“Through the lyrics, you know, what is sung about, the content – ya. Because, um, I find that a lot of Singaporeans they try to be – they try to be Westernized and so they pick up stuff from the – the music.”

“I like Beethoven. I like some Mozart. Um, I like Cho[pin] – Chopin, Dvorak. So I like ... you know, but I can’t say that I like all [their works]. Yes. Or most.”

“[Classical music is] considered as global culture. Because the composers – they’re not Singaporean. Part of our culture? Like to listen to it? Mm ... not in a large way. Ya. Yes, ya.”

“Why don’t [Singaporeans listen to classical music?] I don’t know. Some have this pre-con – pre-conceived idea that it’s not cool. That it’s – you know – something ancient and – and, um, like old, fogey.”

“There are very few Chinese pop rock songs where I actually, um, can appreciate and like the melody lines. Ya. I – I mean with whatever genre of music, I generally – I like more melodies – you know – pretty, pretty melodies and – ya. So some Chinese songs, I find that – you know the – the tunes, the melodies are kind of ... I don’t know, they’re not really going anywhere.”

“In Mandarin songs, Chinese songs in general, I don’t understand half of it. So, um, for the English pop rock – you know – I understand English obviously. But, um, I find that the – the tunes, the melodies, um, I can comprehend – you know – the musical outline better and appreciate it better than the Mandarin stuff.”

“Cultural ... Most – the most – most [Chinese pop] songs are moping about love anyway, so love – you know – is international, I don’t know that it’s cultural. Ya.”

“[Traditional Chinese music is] like classical Chinese, um, ya. I mean when I’ve heard the guzheng – for example, being played, I like it. But I don’t often, um, listen to any guzheng music. Ya. But it’s about the only Chinese instrument that I – I kind of [like] – ya. Some of the other stuff kind of gets to me.”

“I think rightfully so, [Traditional Chinese music] should be preserved. I mean all genres of music – you know – should be preserved, ya. And especially if it’s some – not like recent or modern – anything that is – ya, older or has any historic background. Ya.”

“Er, those [Chinese] instruments. Er, if I’m not mistaken they all – if not all – you know, most of those originated in China. So the – you know – that to me is the main connection.”

“As in anybody born before the 60s ... anybody born before the 60s or before 1965 would, um, ya. Would be more, um, er, how shall I say – they would be the ones who would listen to [Traditional Chinese music] more. Ya. I mean very few – very few young adults listen to it and – and very few children actually conscientiously select that music to listen to.”

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“[Chinese crossover music] was quite pleasant to listen to. But, er, it’s like ... Chinese trying to be Westernized. I’m not being racist here but – you know like they say, it’s crossover, so – ya. So they’re trying to merge the two into one.”

“I don’t like [experimental Chinese music]. Why not? Because I can’t grasp for a distinct, mm, melody line in it. Ya. I mean, parts of it, um ... I don’t know. It’s more like new age-y background music. Ya.”

“Expresses contemporary culture? Contemporary means modern, er, I suppose – ya. I don’t know much about experimental music. As in I’ve not researched into it so I don’t know how global it is. Ya. Um, but I think in general, um, er, not just music but I think the Chinese culture in Western society, Western countries, is becoming quite popular.”

“Singaporean composers like Dick Lee? Composers. Singers, bands – ya. Um, what is that group? Um, okay, singers like – like Tanya Chua? Ya, Stefanie Sun, Sam Willows. Ya.”

“And no, I’m not a big fan [of Singaporean music]. I don’t ... I don’t like hate them or dislike them but, um, I think some of their stuff is nice, is quite pleasant. Some of it may be catchy – you know – but again, none of the ... composers, um, are my all-time favorites. Ya.”

“I think [Singaporean musicians] compose some melodious – you know – easy to – to catch, um, catch up – pick up on, those melodies. Um, but I don’t really see any – any trait that is like distinctly the same with all of these singers or bands, ya. I mean, if it’s a – a work by Dick Lee, normally it’s always – in the lyrics, he’s highlighting something about Singapore or our way of life or something.”

“I don’t really think so because some – some countries, you know some nationalities, they wouldn’t understand ... ya. Especially if there’s any Singlish or – you know – Malay or – or Chinese terms used. Ya. And even sometimes, um, because Singlish is – is not just Singaporean English, it’s – a lot of it is just broken English, you know. Um, not just Malay and English but it’s just not good English.”

“Just turned four years old. And, um, the very first tune I played on my own – on a little keyboard which just had buttons not – not proper keys, um, ya. The first song I played was Majulah Singapura (1958).”

“I started to play on the little keyboard at the age of three. So when I turned four – because I stayed opposite, um, this Yamaha school at Clementi – so my mom and dad didn’t know where else to send me, so they just conveniently sent me across the road. Ya. So I had group lessons there for two years.”

“By the age of, um, fifteen I was in Canada. You know, I moved to Canada when I was about fourteen or fifteen. But from the age of four to fifteen, I had seven different piano teachers. Ya. Er, then I finished my schooling in Canada and I, um, went on to music school and I had, um, got a diploma.”

“In the group setting, even though I was only age four and five, for those two years I was very frustrated. Um, I could only go as fast as the fastest kid in class, and as slow as the slowest kid, you know. Um, and the teachers – I noticed they were very, um, limited by the syllabus that the school expected them to present and teach. And if you wanted to learn

3 anything outside of the Yamaha syllabus, you couldn’t either. So that’s what made it frustrating.”

“I had a very keen ear for music, and – ya, I’d say by the age of three ... um, they could tell – you know – three and then definitely by four, I could play by ear. Ya. So I would hear songs on the TV for example Majulah Singapura, and just pick it up on my own.”

“Yes. Ya. I was definitely highly influenced by my dad. I will say a lot of his musical collection, a lot of it was classical. Not all, but a lot of it. Ya.”

“I would always, um, play with my dolls, line them all up. And I had this blackboard and a whiteboard at home, and I’d pretend I’ll be a classroom teacher. So I suppose from a young age, I aspired to be a teacher. But as I grew older – because of my love for music and piano- playing specifically – as I grew older, then I veered more towards – you know – venturing into teaching music.”

“Because some of my students are only in Singapore for two to ten years, so sometimes after they move away they still keep in contact with me. And they update me on how well they’ve progressed – you know, after leaving Singapore. And – and, um, they’re grateful for their time here and their time with me.”

“So I’ve taught a lot of twins and triplets you know, so never a dull lesson. But I noticed trait in twins and triplets – there’s always one that’s more bossy than the other, and more nosy. So sometimes lessons tend to be interrupted, ya. And they – they want to do things together. But – you know, it doesn’t really work out unless they’re doing duets. Ya. Then I get them to play together and learn together.”

“My main thing for teaching anybody regardless of their age, and their race, and their background, and their ability, is to make sure that they have a good foundation. Er, foundation in reading music and to help them develop – you know, a ear, um, like ear- training.”

“My philosophy is to make sure that they enjoy it, is fulfilling. Um, and music learning is not just a one-off thing in your childhood or for a few years, you know. It’s, um, and not necessarily just playing an instrument or singing, it’s like a lifelong journey. It’s music appreciation. Yup.”

“I encourage [my students] to ... find out what stuff they like ... you know. And to listen, um, um, listen to all kinds of music. And – and or listen to the stuff that they really like.”

“Cultural differences? Somehow in Canada and the US, um, the students seem to be more focused and more dedicated to their craft. Ya. Um, here I find that a lot of students – they are not so focused or they are either too busy or too lazy, you know ... to really give a hundred percent.”

“I mean given the opportunity – as in, if there is a keyboard or a piano in the house, and if they can afford it – in terms – not just in money, er, in terms of time, then I don’t see why not. But I don’t believe that everybody must or should learn piano. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just, um, to each his own, you know. But I don’t – I – I don’t agree with kids especially being forced to learning piano.”

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“I tried to find out verbally, um, by asking [students] – trying to get – in a way to the root of it, but not pressing them too hard. But, um, just find out whether the – the lack of interest is because they’re being pushed by their parents – you know, forced to do it, or they, um, they don’t know what they like, or don’t want to find time to practice.”

“Piano playing, um, is very versatile. You can actually make, um, the notes – you know – by the way you’re playing it. You can make piano playing sound like drums, you can make piano playing sound like animal sounds. You can – you can make, um, you can actually express some strong emotions like anger also through your piano playing. Not just all the pretty, melodious, um, tunes. Ya.”

“Because I’ve worked with both local and, um, expatriate children, especially in the last, um, fifteen years. I see how most expatriate children, they only learn and stick with piano because of their own interests. Whereas a lot of local Singaporean children, they learn because their parents expect them to, or push them to, or force them to learn. And very few of them actually learn because they themselves want to learn and want to continue, ya. So I think it’s sad.”

“I’m a mother myself – you know – I’m looking at my son. He’s a toddler right now, but I’m thinking, you know, I definitely do not want to push him to learn, er, or force him to learn just because we conveniently have a piano and we have a piano teacher under our roof.”

So thank you for joining me today, can you please introduce yourself?

Okay. My name is Cindy Choa. Um, I’m about forty years old. I am Singaporean but I lived overseas in Canada and the US for a total of twelve years. And I have been a piano teacher for a cumulative total of, um, twenty-two years.

Mm. Okay. So let’s start off by talking about English pop first. Do you listen to that?

Um, yes.

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Okay. Do you have any favorite, um, artistes or bands?

Um, pop? (Ya. English genre.) Mm, I have a few. I don’t have like one particular favorite.

Ya. (Who are the few?) Er, I prefer like, um, pop rock – let me see. Er, Michael Learns to

Rock? Yeah, you know, along those lines. Ya.

Okay. What is your impression of this genre of music, do you like it?

I like it. Ya. But I don’t like all of it. (Mm.) I like maybe half or two-thirds of what I normally hear, but not all of it.

What’s the stuff that you don’t really like? Is it the contemporary ones?

Sometimes I don’t like the lyrics. Ya, not so much the melody or the harmony, sometimes it’s the lyrics that kind of puts me off. And even if it’s an instrumental version – but because I know the lyrics, ya.

Okay. Er, do you think English pop rock music expresses a cultural connection of

Singaporeans with the UK, US, and Australia?

Expresses a ... (Cultural connection.) A little bit, yes, ya. (In what way do you think there’s a connection?) The connection between the ... (Singaporeans and the other English-speaking countries?) You mean through the music? (Ya.) Er, let me see. Through the – through the lyrics, you know, what is sung about, the content – ya. Because, um, I find that a lot of

Singaporeans they try to be – they try to be Westernized and so they pick up stuff from the – the music. Ya.

Okay. Er, so let’s talk about Western classical music now. Do you listen to that?

Classical music? Yes, yes.

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Do you have any favorite composers or pieces?

Hmm, I have a few, ya. (Could you name some of them? And tell me why you like them.)

Specific composers and pieces, or just composers? (Er, either is fine.) Um, let’s see. I’ve too many. (Is there one that you like more than the rest?) I like Beethoven. I like some Mozart.

Um, I like Cho[pin] – Chopin, Dvorak. So I like ... you know, but I can’t say that I like all –

(All their works?) Yes. Or most.

Do you think Western classical music can be considered as part of Singaporean culture,

Asian culture, or global culture?

Western classical music? Considered as global culture. (Mm. Okay. Why do you think it’s global?) Western classical? (Mm.) Because the composers – they’re not Singaporean. If you’re talking about Western classical, right?

Do you think it’s part of Singaporean culture? Western classical music.

Part of our culture? Like to listen to it? Or to – (Ya. To consume it.) Mm ... not in a large way.

Ya. (So limited to a small group?) Yes, ya.

Why do you think more people haven’t really got into listening [to] it?

Why don’t they? (Ya, why don’t they listen?) I don’t know. Some have this pre-con – pre- conceived idea that it’s not cool. That it’s – you know – something ancient and – and, um, like old, fogey.

Mm, okay. Um, so let’s talk about Chinese pop rock music now. Er, do you listen to that?

Chinese? (Pop rock.) Er, in general, no.

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Can I ask why?

I ... there are very few Chinese pop rock songs where I actually, um, can appreciate and like the melody lines. Ya. I – I mean with whatever genre of music, I generally – I like more melodies – you know – pretty, pretty melodies and – ya. So some Chinese songs, I find that – you know the – the tunes, the melodies are kind of ... I don’t know, they’re not really going anywhere. (Okay. So more the ballad types, is it?) Ya.

Okay. What about Cantonese pop rock music?

Cantonese pop rock. Not one of my favorites either. Ya.

Um, which one do you think you like more, the English pop rock or Chinese pop rock?

English. (Mm, can I ask why?) Because, um, well firstly Mandarin is my second language.

And I’m Cantonese, but I don’t really speak much Cantonese. So for Cantonese songs, I don’t

– you know – really grasp a lot of it, just some of it. Um, in Mandarin songs, Chinese songs in general, I don’t understand half of it. So, um, for the English pop rock – you know – I understand English obviously. But, um, I find that the – the tunes, the melodies, um, I can comprehend – you know – the musical outline better and appreciate it better than the

Mandarin stuff.

Okay. Er, do you think Chinese or Cantonese pop music expresses a cultural connection of

Chinese Singaporeans with , , and China?

Chinese what? (Chinese and – or Cantonese pop rock expresses a cultural connection of

Chinese Singaporeans with Taiwan, Hong Kong, and China?) A little bit. Ya. (In what ways?) The lyrics. (So like a language connection?) Ya. (Anything – another other cultural

8 connection besides that?) Cultural ... (Mm.) Most – the most – most songs are moping about love anyway, so love – you know – is international, I don’t know that it’s cultural. Ya.

So let’s talk about traditional Chinese music now. Do you listen to that?

Traditional Chinese music? (Ya.) Like the old stuff? (Er, those played by – played on the

Chinese instruments. The guzheng.) Very rarely.

Er, what do you think of that sort of music? Do you like it?

I think it’s ... you know, it’s like classical Chinese, um, ya. I mean when I’ve heard the guzheng – for example, being played, I like it. But I don’t often, um, listen to any guzheng music. Ya. But it’s about the only Chinese instrument that I – I kind of [like] – ya. Some of the other stuff kind of gets to me. (Like what other stuff?) Like the pipa and – and – I don’t even know some of their names. Ya.

Okay. Um, do you think this music should be preserved if only very few people like it?

I think rightfully so, it should be preserved. I mean all genres of music – you know – should be preserved, ya. And especially if it’s some – not like recent or modern – anything that is – ya, older or has any historic background. Ya.

Okay. Do you think traditional Chinese music expresses a cultural connection of Chinese

Singaporeans with ?

Traditional ... (Chinese music.) Does it have any – what? (Er, expresses a cultural connection of Chinese Singaporeans with mainland China?) Er, yes. (Okay. In – how so?) Er, those instruments. Er, if I’m not mistaken they all – if not all – you know, most of those originated in China. So the – you know – that to me is the main connection.

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Okay. Um, do you think it’s listened to a lot in Singapore? Traditional Chinese music?

I wouldn’t say a lot. But, um, the older generation. As in anybody born before the 60s ... anybody born before the 60s or before 1965 would, um, ya. Would be more, um, er, how shall I say – they would be the ones who would listen to it more. Ya. I mean very few – very few young adults listen to it and – and very few children actually conscientiously select that music to listen to. Ya. They might listen to it in passing but – ya.

Okay. Um, so let’s talk about Chinese crossover music now. Have you heard of this genre before?

Chinese crossover? (Ya.) I’ve heard of it but I’ve not, um, delved much into it.

Okay. So can I let you hear an extract of it?

Okay.

Er, just listen to it then let me know what you think of it. [The extract is taken from The

Evolution of Adele (2016), performed by The TENG Ensemble of Singapore.]

So what did you think of that extract, did you like it, dislike it? Ya.

It was quite pleasant to listen to. But, er, it’s like ... Chinese trying to be Westernized. I’m not being racist here but – you know like they say, it’s crossover, so – ya. So they’re trying to merge the two into one. Ya.

Do you think it’s something you would listen to again?

Um, maybe ad hoc, but I wouldn’t say it would be in the, um, something that I would repeatedly select, you know, as my first choice of music when I have some time. Ya. I don’t

10 mind it. But to me it’s like neither here nor there. And then visually because I can see like it’s this music video, you know – and like I said, not being racist because I’m also Chinese, but it’s like Chinese trying to be Westernized. Because they’re taking the Western songs and – you know – kind of making it their own ...

So do you not really like that? Or do you prefer stuff to be purely Chinese or purely Western?

Ya, I’m kind of like an old soul, you know, like a purist, ya. It’s not wrong. Um, I don’t really dislike it. But I wouldn’t say that, um, it would be my favorite thing.

Okay. So let’s talk about experimental Chinese music now. Have you heard of this genre before?

Er, ya. But again, I haven’t delved much into it. Ya.

Okay. What do you know about it?

Experimental? (Ya.) Like the word says, experimental. Er, er, I – I don’t really know that much about it.

Okay, that’s fine. So I’ll let you listen to another extract. So the same thing, just listen –

This experimental extract?

Ya, and let me know what you think. [The extract is taken from Hong Kong-based composer

Doming Lam’s Insect World (2002), a composition for Chinese orchestra that makes use of

Western avant-garde musical techniques.]

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Okay, so what did you think of that extract of, er, experimental Chinese music?

I don’t like it. (Don’t really like it.) Ya. (Why not?) Why not? (Ya.) Because I can’t grasp for a distinct, mm, melody line in it. Ya. I mean, parts of it, um ... I don’t know. It’s more like new age-y background music. Ya.

Would you consider that to be good music or bad music?

I wouldn’t class it as good or bad, I would class it as different. Ya.

Okay. Er, do you think experimental Chinese music expresses contemporary culture, which is increasingly global in nature.

Expresses contemporary culture? (Ya.) Contemporary means modern, er, I suppose – ya.

Do you think it’s global? This music?

I don’t know much about experimental music. As in I’ve not researched into it so I don’t know how global it is. Ya. Um, but I think in general, um, er, not just music but I think the

Chinese culture in Western society, Western countries, is becoming quite popular. So ... (Like trendy?) Ya, like a lot of so-called angmohs – you know, a lot of my European, American friends, um, the angmohs so to say – so to speak – they are all learning Mandarin. Some of them have mastered it quite well. And they think it’s cool to eat Chinese food. So I’m sure they think it’s pretty cool to listen to Chinese music, or try to make Chinese music as well.

Mm, okay. Um, so let’s talk about Singaporean music now. Er, do you know any Singaporean composers, listen to or follow any singers?

Singaporean composers like Dick Lee? (Anyone else?) Composers. (Or singers, bands.)

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Singers, bands – ya. Um, what is that group? Um, okay, singers like – like Tanya Chua? (Ya.)

Ya, Stefanie Sun, Sam Willows. Ya.

Do you listen to their music?

Um, off and on. I wouldn’t say regularly. And no, I’m not a big fan. I don’t ... I don’t like hate them or dislike them but, um, I think some of their stuff is nice, is quite pleasant. Some of it may be catchy – you know – but again, none of the ... composers, um, are my all-time favorites. Ya.

Do you think there is a Singaporean musical style in Singaporean music? Something that’s distinctive and – ya.

Er, well, in general, I think they – they compose some melodious – you know – easy to – to catch, um, catch up – pick up on, those melodies. Um, but I don’t really see any – any trait that is like distinctly the same with all of these singers or bands, ya. I mean, if it’s a – a work by Dick Lee, normally it’s always – in the lyrics, he’s highlighting something about

Singapore or our way of life or something. Ya. But with the others, not necessarily because they’re mostly about love, or the lack of. Ya.

Okay. Um, do you think Singlish comedy songs comedy songs like the [SAR-Vivor] rap [a song based about Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS, or bird flu) outbreak in 2003] by Phua Chu Kang (1997 – 2007) can represent Singapore effectively on the global stage?

Mm, global. I don’t really think so because some – some countries, you know some nationalities, they wouldn’t understand ... ya. (Mm, okay.) Especially if there’s any Singlish or – you know – Malay or – or Chinese terms used. Ya. And even sometimes, um, because

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Singlish is – is not just Singaporean English, it’s – a lot of it is just broken English, you know. Um, not just Malay and English but it’s just not good English. So – ya.

Okay. Um, have you heard of xinyao?

Er, ya. Yes.

Do you know a few songs?

Mm ... I can’t, um, I can’t list any titles, but there’s one or two that if I hear the song, I recognize it. Ya.

Okay. Do you think xinyao music was too Singaporean to become popular internationally?

Too Singaporean? No. No. (So it can become popular?) Ya. Xinyao, I think it’s – it’s, um, ya.

I mean, there is always that possibility. Ya.

Er, why do you think it can become – or resonate with an international audience?

I don’t know, it’s more – they are like – most of them have catchy tunes and – you know – nothing too jarring. Like melodious stuff. Ya. (Mm, okay.) But I’m not a – I shouldn’t say I’m not a fan – it’s just not my favorite thing. Um, and I’m not racist like I said, but I don’t – in general – listen to Chinese music. Ya.

Um, Is there a genre of music that you think represents Singapore authentically? Like traditional Chinese, or Western classical?

No. I don’t. In my opinion, I don’t think there’s one particular – ya. Because Singapore is such a hodgepodge of – you know – cultures and nationalities, races. Ya. So ... as far as I’m concerned, um, it’s just a hodgepodge when it comes to music as well. Ya.

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Er, and there – is there a genre that you think expresses your identity most authentically?

Expresses my identity authentically. Mm ... genre of music. Er, pop. Easy-listening. (English pop?) Yes, English. (Anything else like or Western classical?) I mean I like Western classical and because I’m a teacher, ya – I teach a lot of Western classical. Ya. But for myself, my preference would be like more ... Western pop, um, easy-listening ... ya. Rock ballads type. Ya.

Okay. Um, so we’ve come to our second part now. Er, so let’s talk a bit about your background – your music background first and music education. Um, and how and when did you start learning the piano?

Okay. I started when I was, um, four. Just turned four years old. And, um, the very first tune I played on my own – on a little keyboard which just had buttons not – not proper keys, um, ya. The first song I played was Majulah Singapura (1958). Because as a kid, every day the

TV stations would come on in the afternoon – if I remembered correctly it was about three in the afternoon. And it always, um, when they – before they started showing the programs, they would always play Majulah Singapura. So I picked up that song and then I – I started to play on the little keyboard at the age of three. So when I turned four – because I stayed opposite, um, this Yamaha school at Clementi – so my mom and dad didn’t know where else to send me, so they just conveniently sent me across the road. Ya. So I had group lessons there for two years. And then I got frustrated, and I told my mom and dad I didn’t want to learn there anymore. Not because I didn’t love music or love piano, but I just didn’t like the group setting. Then from there I had private teachers. And in short, by the age of, um, fifteen I was in Canada. You know, I moved to Canada when I was about fourteen or fifteen. But from the age of four to fifteen, I had seven different piano teachers. Ya. Er, then I finished my

15 schooling in Canada and I, um, went on to music school and I had, um, got a diploma. Yup.

(In Canada?) In Canada, yup. And, er, why I ended up teaching?

Er, actually let’s talk a bit about your experience learning it. Um, ya, what did you not like about, um, learning in a group – you mentioned – and, ya. And then afterwards you had private teachers, ya, did you find that experience better?

Okay. In the group setting, even though I was only age four and five, for those two years I was very frustrated. Um, I could only go as fast as the fastest kid in class, and as slow as the slowest kid, you know. Um, and the teachers – I noticed they were very, um, limited by the syllabus that the school expected them to present and teach. So if you wanted to go faster or slower, then whatever the school – you know – expected the teachers to dish out, you couldn’t. And if you wanted to learn anything outside of the Yamaha syllabus, you couldn’t either. So that’s what made it frustrating. Ya. And I think my parents also got frustrated because it was a parent-accompanied class. And the parents actually got told off by the teachers if the kids didn’t perform ... well – or well enough. Ya. And then after that, when I went on to private teachers, the reason why I ended up with, um, about seven teachers by the time I was fifteen was, um, because when we moved house – you know, when – when we moved house we had to change teacher. And some teachers quit teaching because of personal reasons like they got married, they got pregnant – whatever, got too old, retired. There was one teacher – I was with her for two weeks, um, only. Because every time I played the wrong note, she got a wooden ruler and hit my knuckles, so that wasn’t very good. And, er, ya, the rest of the teachers – we all got along very well, very pleasant experience in general. Only that teacher that I was with for two weeks – ya, because she was always hitting my knuckles with a wooden ruler. So – ya.

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Um, how did you start getting interested at the age of three? Er, and did you pick it up – you said you learned the Majulah Singapura – ya, er, did you learn that without any help? [You learnt it] by yourself?

Okay. So my mom is not musical in anyway. I mean, she can hardly sing, hardly hold a tune.

Bless her heart. My dad was very musical. Um, but unfortunately my dad passed away when

I was seven. But I believed when I was actually like in the womb, and right up to the time when he passed away, er, and it’s not just a belief. I – I know so. My dad always played music in the house. So, um, in those days we listen through the record player or cassette tapes. Ya. Um, constant music as long as he was in the house. So if he was at work, no music.

But there was plenty of music – ya. So I think it was that exposure that – you know. And then my dad taught himself how to play the piano. Um, er, at a young age he noticed that I had a very keen ear for music, and – ya, I’d say by the age of three ... um, they could tell – you know – three and then definitely by four, I could play by ear. Ya. So I would hear songs on the TV for example Majulah Singapura, and just pick it up on my own. Then what was the other thing you said?

Er, did you enjoy learning it?

Yes, yes. Ya. But my mom had to be strict with practice times no matter how much I enjoyed it. She’ll stipulate after every bath, every shower, I had to practice the piano. So if I took two or three showers a day, that meant two or three piano practices. Ya. So the – the discipline, you know. The regular practice habits – ya, were set by my mom.

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Um, would you say your musical education or your dad or something else, helped you to develop an interest in classical music?

Yes. Ya. I was definitely highly influenced by my dad. I will say a lot of his musical collection, a lot of it was classical. Not all, but a lot of it. Ya.

Um, what was your education pathway like? Er, so did you go to a university, and what did you major in?

Okay, I did not go to university. I went to college, I majored in piano, and minored in voice.

Ya.

Okay. Um, and then what made you decide to do piano teaching?

Okay, so when I was a little girl, little as in prob[ably] – probably from the age of three, four onwards, I would always, um, play with my dolls, line them all up. And I had this blackboard and a whiteboard at home, and I’d pretend I’ll be a classroom teacher. So I suppose from a young age, I aspired to be a teacher. But as I grew older – because of my love for music and piano-playing specifically – as I grew older, then I veered more towards – you know – venturing into teaching music. Ya. And then I took some courses on like early childhood, you know, um, education and music education for – for kids and stuff. And then I realized,

“Okay, maybe I don’t necessarily have to be a classroom teacher like in other subjects.” But since – you know – I have interest towards piano, ya, um, that I could, um, be a piano teacher. From a young age also, I had – I had a love of, um, not bossing children around, but love of teaching children. So like, um, like even at Sunday school and – ya.

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Er, did you have any, um, memorable, er, or any teaching experiences where you – it went really well?

Went really well in which way? (Any way.) Like – like was satisfied or – mm, I don’t know. I had a lot of students – because most of my students are expatriates, so some of them are in

Singapore anywhere between two years to ten years. Ya. And during that time, they take lessons from me from anywhere between two, to eight or ten years as well. Ya. Um, I’ve had too many memorable experiences. I mean – I – you know – like I, um –

Is there one that sticks out the most [for] you?

Memorable – in a pleasant way? (Ya.) I’ve had many, um, interesting experiences. (Oh, can you tell me about that as well?) Oh. The good, bad, and the ugly? Um, okay what makes it – I mean it’s not so much like anything spectacular during class, but sometimes – as I mentioned because some of my students are only in Singapore for two to ten years, so sometimes after they move away they still keep in contact with me. And they update me on how well they’ve progressed – you know, after leaving Singapore. And – and, um, they’re grateful for their time here and their time with me. And – ya. Um, I mean, memorable – to me, every class is memorable and exciting. (Exciting in what way?) Oh, um, I was having class one time, and like something caught on fire and – you know. I mean, not where the piano was but somewhere else in the house. You know, so never a dull moment, you know. There was another class where I showed up at the door and, um, now, this is not very nice but I’m just telling you as is. I showed up at the door and the father of the student was being thrown out of the house, because he was caught doing something naughty. So – you know, I didn’t know.

Nobody informed me not to come for class, so – ya. So there I was standing at the door when, ya – the father of student was like being screamed at and – you know – about to be thrown out of the house. And so – like I said, that’s like the not so nice. But I mean, it’s not personal

19 towards me, you know. So that’s what I mean, um, about a “Never a dull moment.” So I’ve taught a lot of twins and triplets you know, so never a dull lesson. I go in there and – you know, one could be screaming, one could be happy, one could be lost, you know. I mean ... ya.

Er, how do you teach twins or triplets? Is it at the same time or one by one?

One after the other. Ya. But I noticed trait in twins and triplets – there’s always one that’s more bossy than the other, and more nosy. So sometimes lessons tend to be interrupted, ya.

And they – they want to do things together. But – you know, it doesn’t really work out unless they’re doing duets. Ya. Then I get them to play together and learn together.

Mm. Okay. Er, do you have an approach or philosophy to teaching students?

My philosophy is a few pages long. No. Er, okay. Er, I don’t have any like – you know,

“Philosophy according to Cindy.” But – as – my – my main thing for teaching anybody regardless of their age, and their race, and their background, and their ability, is to make sure that they have a good foundation. Er, foundation in reading music and to help them develop – you know, a ear, um, like ear-training. And, um, help their sight-reading skills even if they can play by ear, they still need sight-reading skills to carry them further. Er, my philosophy is to make sure that they enjoy it, is fulfilling. Um, and music learning is not just a one-off thing in your childhood or for a few years, you know. It’s, um, and not necessarily just playing an instrument or singing, it’s like a lifelong journey. It’s music appreciation. Yup.

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Mm. Um, you mentioned you try and get – you want them to enjoy playing music, how do you do that?

I encourage them to ... find out what stuff they like ... you know. And to listen, um, um, listen to all kinds of music. And – and or listen to the stuff that they really like. And – ya.

Do you, er, do you let them play pop songs in class?

Ya, so each class is catered to the students’ needs and wants. Because not one student is the same, you know ... ya ... as others. Even twins and triplets, they’re as different as night and day.

Um, did you notice any cultural differences or any other differences, er, when teaching in

Singapore versus teaching in Canada?

Cultural differences? (Mm.) Somehow in Canada and the US, um, the students seem to be more focused and more dedicated to their craft. Ya. Um, here I find that a lot of students – they are not so focused or they are either too busy or too lazy, you know ... to really give a hundred percent.

Mm. Okay. What do you think Singaporeans associate piano lessons with?

With a wooden ruler knocking on knuckles. Nah. Um, they associate piano-playing with classical music. A lot of them, ya. Um, er, and maybe for the more artsy – artsy ... fartsy bunch. Ya.

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Um, why do you think parents send their children to piano lessons? Do you think parents like classical and piano music themselves?

Well, they all have different reasons. Some do it because they like the music themselves. You know, whatever music be it classical. Er, some do it because they can afford it and just want to give the child the opportunity, or occupy the child with something or something else. Some do it because of peer pressure, because their neighbors or their relatives are all doing it. Er, ya. Or sending their kids. Um, some do it because as a child, they were deprived of the chance to learn or deprived of a chance to complete their learning. So – you know – as parents, they put all their aspirations and all their dreams on their kids. Ya.

Do you think more students should learn the piano?

Well, I mean given the opportunity – as in, if there is a keyboard or a piano in the house, and if they can afford it – in terms – not just in money, er, in terms of time, then I don’t see why not. But I don’t believe that everybody must or should learn piano. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just, um, to each his own, you know. But I don’t – I – I don’t agree with kids especially being forced to learning piano. Ya.

Have you ever got students who are uninterested in learning? Er, what do you usually do?

Er, if they’re not interested then I tried to find out verbally, um, by asking them – trying to get – in a way to the root of it, but not pressing them too hard. But, um, just find out whether the – the lack of interest is because they’re being pushed by their parents – you know, forced to do it, or they, um, they don’t know what they like, or don’t want to find time to practice.

Or – ya. Because some children they enjoy lessons but they’re too lazy or too busy to practice. So they don’t get very far and then they’re stuck at the same thing, so it’s going to be boring.

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Can we just jump back to your education pathway. Um, was there a reason why you decided to go into, er, college to learn music instead – ya, do music instead of other majors?

Um, because at that time – you know my, um, my predominant interest was in piano. Like I tried to pick up other instruments such as , violin and drums. Just dabbled in it – a little bit here and there. I liked it but somehow I, um, er, I didn’t quite grasp – you know – get a good grasp on those instruments as well. Ya. And ... ya. So that’s why I picked piano. And also, the other thing, um, because my father really loved piano. And as I mentioned to you, he passed away when I was seven. So to me it’s like a – I don’t know if you call it – I don’t know if connection is the right word, or ... ya.

What do you like the most about playing the piano that you can’t get from the other instruments?

Piano playing, um, is very versatile. You can actually make, um, the notes – you know – by the way you’re playing it. You can make piano playing sound like drums, you can make piano playing sound like animal sounds. You can – you can make, um, you can actually express some strong emotions like anger also through your piano playing. Not just all the pretty, melodious, um, tunes. Ya. So I say piano is a very versatile, um, instrument even though it’s only black and white keys, and – ya.

Okay. So that is about it. Do you have any last thoughts or last comments you’ll like to add before we end the interview?

Mm ... last thoughts about what? (Er, about the interview in general. Er, if you think left out anything?) Er, I didn’t like leave out anything per se – I mean, according to your questions but, um, I just ... because I’ve worked with both local and, um, expatriate children, especially in the last, um, fifteen years. I see how most expatriate children, they only learn and stick

23 with piano because of their own interests. Whereas a lot of local Singaporean children, they learn because their parents expect them to, or push them to, or force them to learn. And very few of them actually learn because they themselves want to learn and want to continue, ya.

So I think it’s sad. And now that I’m a mother myself – you know – I’m looking at my son.

He’s a toddler right now, but I’m thinking, you know, I definitely do not want to push him to learn, er, or force him to learn just because we conveniently have a piano and we have a piano teacher under our roof. Ya, so, um, ya. That’s about it.

Okay. Thank you.

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